<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" id=":3d" class="ii gt"><div id=":4t">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center">=====================================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 06 September 2011 - Volume 02<br>
<a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a>
- <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/</a><br>
Posting: <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
Archive: <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html</a><br>
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)<br>
Language Codes: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php" target="_blank">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</a><br>
=====================================================</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color:#5b1094">Mark and Ruth Dreyer</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:mrdreyer@lantic.net">mrdreyer@lantic.net</a></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Phonology" 2011.09.05 (03) [EN]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font size="2">Dear Ron & All:</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Subject: LL-L "Phonology" </div>
<div> </div>
<div>While it's still simple, Ron, I have a no doubt impertinent question. Am I
correct in seeing this as a bilabial voiced plosive drifting (regularly, in
grammatical context) to a bilabial voiced fricative?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>One finds it in the Bantu languages & some indicate this sound with the
symbol '6'. The 'human class plural 'b' in 'bantu' (people) for
example is one, & as you go north it drifts clear across to 'w' also,
incidentally, bilabial semivocalic, as in for example 'wabenzi' (possessor of a
Mercedes Benz - the Elite).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>By my experience this sound is found in Hebrew too. The 'vaw' prefix
indicating 'and' as well as the Scriptural ('vayarad vayamar malakh etc...)
& here too, in the former case, there is drift to a well in this case
vocalic, hey, 'u' as with the 'makhbal' sounds for the root word; 'ubasof...'
(and in the end) instead of 'vekashe li...' (and it is hard for me).</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">In Afrikaans for 'I remain' we say 'Ek bly'.
However for eg 'a lasting benefit' we say ' 'n blywende voordeel'. Fossils in
language...</font></div><div class="im">
<div> </div>
<div>As you wrote:</div>
<div>"The <span style="color:black">basic thing is that Old Saxon </span><span style="color:black">-</span>ƀ<span style="color:black">- (a barred “b” that
occurs intervocalically, which Ingmar assumes to stand for [w] and I assume to
stand for [</span>β<span style="color:black">]) developed in two ways in Modern
Saxon (Low Saxon): [v] and [b], depending upon the dialect. In Northern Germany
it is particularly the dialects of the Low Elbe region that have the [b]
pronunciation, while most other regions have the [v] pronunciation.
<br></span></div>
</div><div><span style="color:black"><font size="2">Yrs,</font></span></div>
<div><span style="color: black;"><font size="2">Mark<br><br>----------<br><br></font></span>From: <span class="gI"><span class="ik"></span><span class="gD" style="color:#790619"><a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a></span> </span><br>
Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Phonology" 2011.09.05 (03) [EN]<br><br></span><div class="im">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<br>
</div><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
The basic thing is that Old Saxon -ƀ- (a barred “b” that occurs<br>
intervocalically, which Ingmar assumes to stand for [w] and I assume to<br>
stand for [β]) developed in two ways in Modern Saxon (Low Saxon): [v] and<br>
[b], depending upon the dialect. In Northern Germany it is particularly the<br>
dialects of the Low Elbe region that have the [b] pronunciation, while most<br>
other regions have the [v] pronunciation.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
And as we have the great Wenker-Atlas for German and Low Saxon dialects,
I'll point to it's map for the word "geblieben" (focusing on the
"blieb" part of it): <<a href="http://137.248.81.135/diwa/ECW.asp?ID1=295" target="_blank">http://137.248.81.135/diwa/ECW.asp?ID1=295</a>><br>
<br>
The maps are hard to access, because they need a special plugin or a
java applet. If you cannot get the map to work with the plugin, try
clicking on "Kartenverzeichnis" (showing you links to all of the 600
maps of different language characteristics), after clicking on the
"weiter..." link after the respective map you'll see a
"Kartenassistent". Under "Anzeige" try using "Java-Applet" instead of
"Plugin" and then click on "Diese Karte einzeln anzeigen".<br>
<br>
The map for "geblieben" shows that east of Stettin-Berlin-Wittenberge-Cal<div id=":57">be-Jüterbogk and west of Münden-Paderborn-Warendorf-Osnabrück-Diepholz-Vegesack-Wilhelmshaven "blew" is common, while in the region inbetween "bleb" is common (with some amount of regional variation).<br>
<br>
(Wenker-Atlas of course also has a map on the participial ge-: <<a href="http://137.248.81.135/diwa/ECW.asp?ID1=278" target="_blank">http://137.248.81.135/diwa/ECW.asp?ID1=278</a>>)<br>
<br>
Marcus Buck<br><br>----------<br><br>From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color:#790619">Brooks, Mark</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us">mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us</a></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Etymology" 2011.09.02 (02) [AF-EN-NDS-NL]</span><br><span class="gI"><br></span><p class="MsoNormal">Marcus wrote: <span>words
with metathesis and without metathesis must have existed even before
the Angles and Saxons went to Britain (e.g. "-thorp/-dorp" vs.
"-throp/-drup" in placenames).”</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span>Coincidentally,
the town in Texas that has the largest of the wildfires in my area is
Bastrop. Bastrop is about 30 – 50 km east of Austin. History tells us it
was settled by the Dutch. I don’t know if that’s true, but they sure
could use some water right now.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span>I
live about 30 km north of Austin and about 30 km from a different fire
at Steiner Ranch. Our dry conditions are just as bad. In fact,
Williamson County (where I live) has banned welding, grilling or
barbecuing, and cigarette smoking. I don’t smoke or weld ;-), but being
Texan I do barbecue and grill. In Texas grilling is one of our
constitutional rights (just kidding). Fortunately, we did all that
before the ban went into effect.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span>We’d be more than happy to take some of that rain from next door in Louisiana and Mississippi.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span> </span></p><span>Mark Brooks</span><br><br>----------<br><br>From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:roerd096@PLANET.NL">roerd096@PLANET.NL</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.09.05 (03) [EN]<br><br>Hi Ron and everybody,<br>
<br>
I'm sorry Ron but you got me wrong... I don't assume Old Saxon -ƀ- stood
for [w], that wouldn't be logical, otherwise it wouldn't need a special
letter like that, because Old Saxon w had the same prono as English w -
which is unlike w- in Modern Low Saxon.<br>
<br>
What I wrote was that the pronunciation of Old Saxon -ƀ- was, IMHO, the
same as the sound which is spelt in Modern Low Saxon of the Netherlands
(and in Dutch) as -v-, and in Modern Low Saxon of Germany as -w-, in
words like schriever (Dutch LS) / schriewer (German LS).<br>
I think this is proven by -ƀ- regularly alternating with -f, which is the voiceless version of [v], and not so of [β].<br>
<br>
The fact that Low Saxon needed a special letter -ƀ- for this [v] sound
was that there were no other [v] sound word initially or finally, and
that the letter V was already used for other sounds such as [u].<br>
<br>
Ingmar<br>
<br><div style="margin-left: 40px;">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Subject: Phonology</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Dear Lowlanders,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Before the current thread becomes more involved, I want to give you a
summary and some more information if you have been trying to follow and
have a hard time with the Low Saxon conversation.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
The basic thing is that Old Saxon -ƀ- (a barred “b” that occurs
intervocalically, which Ingmar assumes to stand for [w] and I assume to
stand for [β]) developed in two ways in Modern Saxon (Low Saxon): [v]
and [b], depending upon the dialect. In Northern Germany it is
particularly the dialects of the Low Elbe region that have the [b]
pronunciation, while most other regions have the [v] pronunciation.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
“remain”:</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Old Saxon</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Modern Saxon (Low Saxon)</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
written</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
written</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
clear</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
less clear</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
unclear</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
bilīƀan ></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
blieven</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
[ˈbliːvn̩]</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
[ˈbliːvm̩]</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
[ˈbliːm(m̩)]</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
blieben</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
[ˈbliːbn̩]</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
[ˈbliːbm̩]</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
This topic came up because Ingmar noticed what seems like inconsistency
in Hanne’s writing: -b- and -w-. I explained that Hanne’s Mecklenburg
region, as also the neighboring Eastern Holstein region (both formerly
Slavic-speaking regions, incidentally) are apparently transitional. I
believe that this explains the inconsistency.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
I wonder if Hanne’s bläben ([ˈblɛːbm̩] > [ˈblɛːm(m̩)]) was
interpreted as ‘to remain’. It is in fact the past participial form
(‘remained’) of blieben ‘to remain’. Please note that many Low Saxon
dialects have discarded old participial ge- and its intermediate form e-
(as still found in parts of the Eastern Netherlands).</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Here now the paradigm for verbs of the type -iev- ~ -ieb- in Northern Low Saxon (including Western Mecklenburg dialects):</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Infinitive: blieven ~ blieben “to remain”</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Present: ik bliev’, du bliffst, he/se/dat blifft, wi/ji/se blievt ~ blieven ~ blieben</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Past: ik blev’, du bleevst, he/se/dat blev’ wi/ji/se bleven ~ bleben</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Past Part.: blẹven ~ blẹben ~ bläwen ~ bläben</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Infinitive: schrieven ~ schrieben “to write”</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Present: ik schriev’, du schriffst, he/se/dat schrifft, wi/ji/se schrievt ~ schrieven ~ schrieben</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Past: ik schrev’, du schreevst, he/se/dat schrev’ wi/ji/se schreven ~ schreben</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Past Part.: schrẹven ~ schrẹben ~ schräwen ~ schräben</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
I hope this clarified a few matters.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Regards,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Seattle, USA</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"></div></div><span style="color: black;"><font size="2"><br>----------<br><br></font></span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Subject: Phonology</span><br><br>Thanks, everyone!<br><br>Sorry I misunderstood your earlier post, and thanks for clarifying it, Ingmar. <br><br>Mark, before the Jewish diaspora in Europe (and still continuing among non-Persian and non-Kurdish Mizrahi Jews), Hebrew ב (<i>vet</i>) was pronounced [v] (being the voiced version of בּ (<i>bet</i>) [b]. This has not changed. However, ו (<i>waw</i>) represented the glide (semi-vowel) [w] (being the equivalent of Arabic و (<i>waw</i>) [w]). As prefixed ו 'and', it was pronounced <i>wa, wə</i> or <i>wi</i>, (Europeanized <i>va, və</i> or <i>vi</i>)<i>, </i>depending on the following syllable. It there is a labial in the following syllable, however, then we would expect *<i>wu</i> (Europeanized <i>*vu</i>), but it is <i>u</i> instead (e.g. וּבַדֶּרֶךְ <i>uvadderekh</i> 'and on the way').<br>
<br>Europeanized pronunciation of Hebrew, which predominates today's Hebrew-speaking world, is an analytical impediment. I run across it all the time while teaching Hebrew and Judaics.<br><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA<span style="color:black"><font size="2"><br><br></font></span></div></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center">=========================================================<br>
Send posting submissions to <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>.<br>
Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.<br>
Send commands (including "signoff lowlands-l") to<br>
<a href="mailto:listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
or <a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a><br>
<a href="http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html" target="_blank">http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html</a>.<br>
<a href="http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#%21/group.php?gid=118916521473498" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/group.php?gid=118916521473498</a><br>
========================================================== </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div></div>