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L O W L A N D S - L - 26 December 2011 - Volume 03<br>
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<p style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="MsoNormal"><font> </font></p><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">From:</font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gI"><span class="gD">Sandy Fleming</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:fleemin@live.co.uk">fleemin@live.co.uk</a></span></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
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</font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Subject: </font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gI">LL-L 'Language varieties' 2010.12.25. (01) [EN]</span><br style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
<br style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> From:</font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> <span>Pat Barrett</span> <span><a href="mailto:pbarrett@cox.net" target="_blank">pbarrett@cox.net</a></span></span><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
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</font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> Subject: </font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">LL-L 'Language varieties' 2010.12.25. (01) [EN]</span><br style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
<font style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#888888">> </font></span><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">p.s. I wrote "Scotsmen" with trepidation, also.
Scottish folk would have been safer but I've also heard Scotchmen. Any help
there?<br><br>Pat, I don't mind, but if you mention it in front of
anybody else, prepare to be torn limb from limb by huge, ginger-bearded,
claymore-wielding Scotchmen and made into haggis. With Burns night
coming up it's a particularly dangerous time of the year.<br><br></font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">></font><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
</font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">></font><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Subject: Language varieties<br><br></font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">></font><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Thanks, Pat.<br>
<br></font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">></font><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">It's
important to bring in Scottish English at this point: a group of
English dialects with Scots substrata. Scottish English is <b>not</b> Scots, however, or <i>vice versa</i> for that matter.<br>
<br></font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">></font><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Scots has its own grammatical rules and vocabulary. You will not be
able to follow much of Scots speech unless you are thoroughly exposed
to it and learn the vocabulary and idiom. Following Scottish English is
another matter (with the exception of some Scots loanwords); it's easy
once you have a grasp of the phonology.<br><br>I speak Scots and
Scottish English as distinct languages, that's one point. Even Southern
English people who are used to my Scottish English can't make out what
I'm saying in Scots. The vocabulary, grammar and idiom are all
different, and while Scots phonology is similar to Scottish English, I
think there are some significant differences in terms of nasal and
guttural qualities.<br><br>Hopefully 2012 will be the year when I finally do these Wren recordings for Ron :)<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br><br>Sandy Fleming<br><a href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">http://scotstext.org/</a><br>
</font></span></font><div><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>----------<br><br></font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">From:</font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> "Steven Hanson" <<a href="mailto:ammurit@gmail.com">ammurit@gmail.com</a>></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gI"><span class="go"></span></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</div><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Subject: </font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gI">LL-L 'Language varieties' 2010.12.25. (01) [EN]</span><br style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
<br style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><p style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">“I weigh in on these matters with trepidation since I don't command any form of Lowlands except English (N.A. variety).</span></p>
<p style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">However, I've read of lot of linguistics over 50+ years and have always read that linguists study dialects only and <b>a language is politically defined</b>”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Andalus","serif";color:#1f497d">I
think the part in bold is quite important. I don’t know who the quote
comes from, but I tend to stick to the idea that “a language is just a
dialect with an army.” </span><br><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>----------<br><br></font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">From:</font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gI"><span class="gD">Isaac M. Davis</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:isaacmacdonalddavis@gmail.com">isaacmacdonalddavis@gmail.com</a></span></span><br style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
<font style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Subject: </font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">"Lowlands List" <<a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>></span><br style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
<br style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_quote"><div class="im"><div>Douglas Hinton wrote:</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div> May I ask for the difference between a dialect and a language? For me
scots is a regional dialect, since the main difference between standard
english and scots is pronunciation. I agree that scots has a certain
special vocabulary, but these same words are widely understood by the
english speaker, even if not commonly used.<br>
Rather extreme, but I even suggest that bokmaal norwegian and danish
are the same language and that bokmaal is a regional dialect of danish.
After all, written bokmaal can be read without hesitation by a native
danish speaker. Most words are spelled the same as danish with the
norwegian having some phonetic spelling corrections. The accent, or
pronounciation, is very different, but that's one characteristic of a
dialect.<br>
For me, a language needs it's own vocabulary and grammar rules. If it
is 80 to 90% the same as the national language, differing mainly in
pronunciation I would say it's a dialect.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>I
think the definition of 'dialect' vs language is a tricky question and
quite political. A shprakh iz a diyalekt mit an armey un a flot, as the
saying goes. All language varieties are equally language varieties, and
much of the time, when one language variety is declared a dialect of
another, it's a statement of the privilege one variety (the 'language')
enjoys relative to the other (the 'dialect).</div>
<div><br></div><div>On the subject of Scots, whenever I have someone
trying to tell me that CLEARLY Scots is a dialect of English, I suspect
that their exposure to Scots, if they have any, is mainly a variety that
I (borrowing from the creolists) would call mesolect, even high
mesolect. Basilectal Scots is essentially incomprehensible to
uninitiated English-speakers, including ones who are very familiar with
Scottish Standard English. Is it phonologically different from English?
Absolutely, and much of this phonological difference is reflected in
mesolectal and acrolectal varieties spoken in Scotland, which you seem
to be aware of. Is it lexically different? Very much so, though of
course it's under great influence from SSE and other high-prestige
varieties of English, so its lexicon is closer and closer to English all
the time. But basilectal Scots is really its own beast, grammatically
and morphologically, and to pretend that it's not is to reveal one's
ignorance of Scots as it is actually spoken.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Isaac<br><br>----------<br><br><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">From:</font><span> </span><span class="gI"><span class="gD">Jan Neelen-Keppenne</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:neelen.keppenne@skynet.be">neelen.keppenne@skynet.be</a></span></span><br>
<font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">Subject: </font><span class="gI">LL-L 'Language varieties' 2010.12.25. (01) [EN]</span><br>
<br></div></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Hello,</span><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">It's very simple:</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">A language has an army, a dialect has'nt.</div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Regards,</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Jan Neelen</div><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>----------<br><br>From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Language varieties<br>
<br>Hi, </font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">all!</span><br style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
<br style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><div style="margin-left:40px;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
"<span style="direction:rtl"><span lang="yi">אַ שפּראַך איז אַ דיאַלעקט מיט אַן אַרמיי און פֿלאָט.</span></span>"<br>(A shrakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot.)<br>"A language is a dialect with an army and a navy."<br>
</div><br style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">This is what several of you referred to. It has been attributed to the Yiddishist linguist Max Weinreich, though apparently he quoted a member of his audience in 1945.</span><br style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
<br style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">In my opinion this is a case of gross simplification, and it certainly is no longer true, if it ever was. No one in their right mind -- certainly no serious linguists -- would regard Catalan as being a dialect (though it </span><i style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">is</i><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> the national language of tiny Andorra), or would regard Frisian to be anything but a language (or rather a language group). Tatar, Bashkir, Chuvash, Mari, Chukchi, Uyghur, Dai, Raeto-Romance, Faroese, Aramaic (group), Aymara, Romany, and Tamazight are but a few examples of recognized languages without the alleged attributes. Notwithstanding certain countries refusing to recognize minority and regional languages, any clear-thinking person would agree that for instance Sardinian, Corsican and Aromanian are European languages in their own rights (never mind the official position of Italy, France and Greece respectively).</span><br>
<br>Sandy:<br><br><div style="margin-left:40px"><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,153)">Hopefully 2012 will be the year when I finally do these Wren recordings for Ron :)</span></font><br>
</div><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>That would be great.<br style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font>
</div><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span><br>
Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br><br></span></font></div></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
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