<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><div><div style="text-align:center"><font>==============================</font><font>=======================<br> L O W L A N D S - L - 22 March 2012 - Volume 02<br>
<a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a>
</font><font>
- <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/</a><br>
Posting: <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
Archive: <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html</a><br>
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)<br>
Language Codes: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php" target="_blank">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</a><br>
==============================</font><font>=======================</font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font> </font></p>
From: <span><span>Mike Morgan</span> <span><a href="mailto:mwmbombay@gmail.com" target="_blank">mwmbombay@gmail.com</a></span></span><span><span></span></span><span><span></span></span><p class="MsoNormal">
Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Traditions" 2012.03.22 (01) [EN]</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br><span></span></p><div style="margin-left:40px;color:rgb(0,0,153)">The woman belongs to the group of Naqvi Sayeds (< Sayyid, plural <b>Sadat</b>)
who are those (mostly South Asians) who claim descent from the Prophet
(PBUH) through Ali Naqi Al-Hadi the 10th Twelver Shi'a Imam (whose son
was Sayed, hence the 2nd part of the name).<br></div>
<div style="margin-left:40px;color:rgb(0,0,153)">... (genetic work I have seen however does not quite match with the claim)</div><div style="margin-left:40px;color:rgb(0,0,153)" class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
</div></blockquote></div><div><br>Oh and that research (for any who are interested in how one might research such claims) can be read in:<br>
<br><a href="http://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2010/Belle_AAS10_Syed.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2010/Belle_AAS10_Syed.pdf</a></div><br>(PS
my 1st (conscious) acquaintance with the Syeds was via Indian
Matrimonials... which I have read off an on since the late 70s as an
amusement... and for the insight they give into both language (e.g.
"homely" meaning "good at housekeeping" NOT "ugly" as it would to an
American) and into the culture (you might -- or might not -- be
surprised at the changes (and some of the lack of change) in WHAT
characteristics are self advertised and what ones are sought...)<br>
<br>Anyway, the research does NOT question Arab ancestry for the
Syeds, just questions claims to a specific "recent" common ancestry.<br><br><div style="color:rgb(102,102,102)">mwm || <u>U</u> C > || mike || мика || माईक || マイク || மாய்க் (aka Dr Michael W Morgan)<br>
sign language linguist / linguistic typologist at large / "Have language(s), will travel"</div>
<div style="color:rgb(102,102,102)"><br><b>"If one has no affection for a person or a system, one
should feel free to give the fullest expression to his disaffection so
long as he does not contemplate, promote, or incite violence." (MKG)<br>
"You assist an unjust administration most effectively by obeying its
orders and decrees. An evil administration never deserves such
allegiance. Allegiance to it means partaking of the evil.</b> <b>A good
person will resist an evil system with his whole soul. Disobedience of
the laws of an evil state is therefore a duty." (MKG)</b><br>
been there, done that...</div><br>----------<br><br>From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:roerd096@PLANET.NL">roerd096@PLANET.NL</a>><span><span></span></span><span><span></span></span><p class="MsoNormal">
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2012.03.22 (01) [EN]</p><p class="MsoNormal"><br><span class="gI"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal">Thanks, Mike. You're right, it was Sayyed. I don't know whether their
Arab descent is right, but to me they don't look any different from the
general Tajiks i.e. the Dari speaking, Sunni Afghans, and usually I can
see whether an Afghan is a Pashtun, a Tajik or a Hazara (two types of
them). I also have known a few Turkic (Turkmen and Uzbek) speaking
Afghans, and I was surprised to see that they looked completely
Caucasoid, and not Mongolid as I'd expected.<br>
I also have know a few Uyghur people from China, some of whom look surprisingly Caucasoid, others quite Mongolid.<br>
By the way, the myth of Turkic multiple intelligibilty is a myth indeed,
at least I noticed that Turkmens from Afghanistan could hardly
communicate with Turkmens from Iraq, nor with people from Turkey. I also
knew a Russian guy who grew up in Kazan, Tatarstan and managed to
communicate a bit in Tatar with people from Turkey and with Turkmens.<br>
Also very interesting: many people from Kirkuk, Iraq, can speak both
Kurdish (Sorani), Turkmen and of course Iraqi Arabic. Iraqi Turkmen is
actually very close to Turkish and Azeri. Yes, as you see my job with
asylumseekers and refugees has very interesting sides to it. Ingmar</p><br>----------<br><br>From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD">Paul Finlow-Bates</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a></span></span><span><span></span></span><span><span></span></span><p class="MsoNormal">
Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Traditions" 2012.03.21 (02) [EN]</span></p><br><div><span>They celebrate it on the Equinox as far as I know, which was
20 March this year. (Leap year effect). The modern Iranian calendar is a
solar one which remains in step with ours; I don't know when they have
their leap-day though, or whether their leap year is even the same.</span></div><div><span> </span></div><div><span>Paul</span></div><br>----------<br><br>From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Traditions<br><br>I find all this very interesting. But we do need to somehow bring this home to Lowlands relevance, folks, e.g. to the topic of traditions and celebrations or to that of degrees of mutual intelligibility among Lowlands language varieties.<br>
<br>Ingmar, I can verify that mutual intelligibility among the Turkic languages is not as simple as it often touted to be. But it is no myth either. There are various degrees. It depends on the listener's ability (since some people are better at cracking the language code than are others), and it is also a matter of if you are talking about fluent speech, slow deliberate speech or reading, and there is the issue of commonalities between respective vocabulary sources. I have studied Turkish and Uyghur (the latter in both "Chinese" and "Soviet" varieties) and have taken summer crash courses in Uzbek and Kazakh. This makes it relatively easy for me to read and to understand slowly spoken (or sung) Yughur, Kyrgyz, Azeri (Azerbaijani), Gagauz, Turkmen, Salar, Crimean "Tatar," Karaim, Tatar and Bashkir. For one thing, most of them share a great deal of Persian and (mostly Persian-transmitted) Arabic vocabulary, and Karaim is full of Hebrew loanwords (which I understand). Besides that, most of them share a great many Russian loanwords (most of which I know). And I do understand most Chinese loanwords in Uyghur. Turkish and Azeri are very closely related to each other, as are Uyghur and Uzbek respectively. I would compare their respective relationships with that of Dutch vs Low Saxon, or with Scots vs English, or with Dutch vs Afrikaans, or with Danish vs Swedish. When it comes to the Turkic languages of Siberia's non-Islamized peoples, I have a lot more problems. Drawing on my Old Turkic and Old Uyghur learning is limited, because some of those languages have been influenced by Mongolic, Tungusic and various Paleo-Siberian languages. This is a bit more like comparing Modern German with Yiddish, and beyond that. Finally, it is all a matter of frequency and intensity of exposure. <br>
<br>My point: this topic can't be dealt with in a couple of sentences.<br><br>If you want to chime in to this thread dealing with mutual comprehension, please submit it separately under "Language varieties," and please try to make it Lowlands-relevant.<br>
<br>Best regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br>Seattle, USA<br><br><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2"><div style="text-align:center">
<span>==============================</span><span>===========================</span><br>
<span>
Send posting submissions to </span><a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><span>.</span><br>
<span>
Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.</span><br><span>
Send commands (including "signoff lowlands-l") to</span><br>
<a href="mailto:listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><span>
or </span><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a><br>
<a href="http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html" target="_blank">http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html</a><span>.</span><br>
<a href="http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#%21/group.php?gid=118916521473498" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/group.php?gid=118916521473498</a><br><span>
==============================</span><span>============================ </span></div>
</font></div></div>