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<font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2">From: </font><font><span class="gI"><span name="Paul Finlow-Bates" class="gD">Paul Finlow-Bates</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a></span></span></font><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2"><br>
Subject: </font><font><span class="gI">LL-L "History" 2012.08.09 (04) [EN]</span><br></font><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2"><br></font><div><font><span>Might be a similar thing to "turkey". Why is a North American
bird named after a country in the Middle East? When the bird first
appeared in England, it was strange, exotic, unknown. From somewhere
mysterious. That means east. Turkey will do.</span></font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><font><span>The
berry, likewise, was from somewhere "far away over the Sea". Ships
coming from strange lands would often have come via the Cape Colony, and
if they were coming from western South America, that long way might
well be easier than running the gauntlet of The Horn.</span></font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><font><span></span> </font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent">
<font><span>Most
people's idea of world geography was hazy at best. In my experience,
not much has changed, despite the fact that most Westerners have the
world at their fingertips, literally.</span></font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><font><span></span> </font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><font><span>Paul<br>
<br>----------<br></span></font></div><font><br></font><font>From: Hannelore Hinz
<a href="mailto:hannehinz@t-online.de" target="_blank"><hannehinz@t-online.de></a><div class="im">
Subject: LL-L "History" 2012.08.09 (04) [EN] <br>
<br></div>
Hallo all' Lowlanners.<br>
<br>
Hier nu wat "<i>in other German dialects" <br>
</i>Tauierst nu dit:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stachelbeere" target="_blank">http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stachelbeere</a><br>
<br>
<b>Stickelbeer </b>f. Stachelbeere, Frucht von ribes
grossularia: uva crispa 'Stickelbeere'.<br>
<i>Hurrah! Pankooken mit Stickelbärn! <br>
<br>
</i><i>Stickelbeeren </i>im <i>bunt Water </i>(Erntebräuche
von Richard Wossidlo):<br>
III. Das bunte Wasser u.ä.<br>
Wenn de Meihers un Binners an den ihrsten Abend in de Roggenaust
na Huus kemen, würd bi Dargun-Gnoien rüm un in
Mäkelborg-Strelitz dat "bunt Water" maakt. - Bi uns würden dree
Waschbalgen hensett't: in een keem Nettel, in de tweet <b>Stickelbeeren</b>,
in de drüdd 'ne Buttel Brammwien. Denn würd 'n Dook vör de Ogen
bunnen un blinnerwies' müßten se togriepen. Wenn een in'n Nettel
greep, denn güng 't Lachen los.<br>
<br>
Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert:<br>
<b>Stickelbeerbusch</b> m. Stachelbeerenbusch. Magisches Mittel,
wenn es nicht buttern will: <i>'n lütt Stück von 'n
Stickelbeerbusch afsniden un int Botterfatt smieten </i>(RoBörg).<br>
Rda. zu einem unehelich Geborenen: <i>du hest achter 'n
Stickelbeerenbusch lägen </i>bist unbekannter Herkunft; <i>Stickelbeerbusch
</i>im Rätsel der Kopf des Menschen wegen der Behaartheit.<br>
Syn.: <i>Stickelbeerstruk, Stickelbusch, Stäk-, Stickelduurn.<br>
</i>Stickelbeerenhäg' f. Hecke von Stachelbeersträuchern; <br>
Stickelbeerkranz m. Kranz aus Dornen vom Stachelbeerstrauch; er
wurde den Mägden von den Knechten unter das Bettlaken gelegt, um
sie zu foppen.<br>
<br>
<b>Stickelbeerboort</b> m. stacheliger Bart; <br>
stickelbeerbunt bunt, vom Gefieder, im Reim vom Kuckuck: <i>Kukuk
wier so stickelbunt.<br>
<br>
</i><b>Stickelitschen </b>Pl. Stachelbeeren: <i>tau de
Stickelbeeren säden wi Jung's Stickelitschen.<br>
<br>
</i>... un jüst kümmt mi dat <b>Lickmünnen </b>(leckerig,
lüstern) an, wenn ick an <br>
<b><i>Stachelbeertorte mit Baiserhaube </i></b>denken dau.<br>
<br>
<b>Stachelbeere </b>(17. Jh.) ist laut DUDEN 7 eine
Zusammensetzung<br>
von Stachel und Beere (dit man blotsen so jichtensbi vermellt).<br>
<br>
<b>Stachelbeere</b>, f. Stick-/Stickel-/Kruus-/Krüüsbeer [ę],
pl. -beren [ę] / beern [ę]<br>
Lit.: G. HARTE . J. HARTE <br>
HOCHDEUTSCH PLATTDEUTSCHES WÖRTERBUCH<br>
<br>
So, dat langt nu woll...<br>
<br>
Hanne<br><br>----------<br><br></font><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2">From: </font><font><span class="gI"><span name="Roger Thijs" class="gD">Roger Thijs</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:rogerthijs@yahoo.com">rogerthijs@yahoo.com</a></span></span></font><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2"><br>
Subject: </font><font><span class="gI">LL-L Traditions</span><br><br></font>
<div id=":18a"><div><div><div><font><span>One of the common toys (weapons?) in
my childhood was elder pipes. We toke a straight part of wood, about 3”
long, pushed the “cheese” (internal core) out with an iron thread. Our
bullets were little chewed paper bolls.<br>That pipe was apparently called “<strong>klapbus</strong>”
in Northern France, and a combination of two grains was used for the
bullets. It was referred to today in the Hazebroek local edition of “La
Voix du Nord” (see attachement <font style="background-color:rgb(128,255,0)"><font>p9..pdf</font>)</font><br></span></font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><font><span>In my local Limburgish we called the pipe “<strong>toeteleer</strong>”, I guess since it could also be turned into a
musical pipe.<br></span></font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><font><span>“Elder”
is “vlier” in Dutch, and we had a lot of it in the place I was born
“Vliermaal”, a municipality that did not steal its name.<br>Vliermaal
was once the head of a county with that name, and became later the seat
of the court of appeal of the county of Loon. The high court was
relocated to the town of Hasselt in 1469, but it kept its name "of
Vliermaal" and continued to have seat in Vliermaal for lower justice.
When Loon became territorialwise a fief of Liège, this court did not
follow, since it was “reichsunmittelbar”. Several decisions ended in
highest appeal for the “Reichskammergericht”.<br><a href="https://inventaris.onroerenderfgoed.be/dibe/geheel/21154" target="_blank">https://inventaris.onroerenderfgoed.be/dibe/geheel/21154</a><br></span></font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent">
<font><span>I
was born in a square farm in the center of the village. When renovating
in the sixties we found some bricks in an old fireplace. These got some
attention in the press. I’m living in the Brussels area now, but I
still cannot separate from the stupid bricks I keep in a box (standing
in the way all time). (see attachment <font style="background-color:rgb(128,255,0)">hs.pdf</font>).<br></span></font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><font><span>As
for the elder jelly our family made with the berries, opinions were
divided in our family about the medical
working. Some thought it was ideal against constipation, other thought
it was healing against diarrhea. Maybe they were both right and it had a
stabilizing effect eventually.<br></span></font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><font><span>I
stayed somehow obsessed with the plant, I don’t have it in my garden
though, but I got a branch iron-forged by an artisanal forger Walter
Houtmans and I still have that exposed in the hall of my house.<br>Walter is sun of the former Actor Robert Marcel <a href="http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Marcel" target="_blank">http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Marcel</a><br>
</span></font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><font><span>Vliermaal
was also written Fliedermaal in old texts, but our vlier had nothing to
do with the High
German Flieder. The Dutch for Flieder is “sering” (lilac). We also had
some lilac trees in our garden in Vliermaal, one with blue, the other
with white lilacs. They were part of another tradition: we had a
traditional “kermis” the third Sunday of May, and on kermis Monday the
graves of family members were visited. It was the blooming time of the
lilacs and traditionally blue lilacs were put on the graves (rather not
the white, since the turning into brown was too visible with white when
the flowers were aging).</span></font></div><div><font><span></span> </font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><font><span>Dutch: <strong><u>Gewone vlier</u></strong><br><a href="http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewone_vlier" target="_blank">http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewone_vlier</a><br>
<a href="http://www.soortenbank.nl/soorten.php?soortengroep=flora_nl&id=2498&menuentry=soorten" target="_blank">http://www.soortenbank.nl/soorten.php?soortengroep=flora_nl&id=2498&menuentry=soorten</a><br>
German: Schwarzer Holunder<br><a href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambucus_nigra" target="_blank">http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambucus_nigra</a><br>English: Elderberry,<br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambucus_nigra" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambucus_nigra</a><br>
French: Sureau noir<br><a href="http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambucus_nigra" target="_blank">http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambucus_nigra</a></span></font></div><div><font><span></span> </font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent">
<font><span>German <u><strong>Flieder</strong></u><br><a href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flieder" target="_blank">http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flieder</a><br><a href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemeiner_Flieder" target="_blank">http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemeiner_Flieder</a><br>
Dutch: Sering<br><a href="http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syringa_vulgaris" target="_blank">http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syringa_vulgaris</a><br><a href="http://www.soortenbank.nl/soorten.php?soortengroep=flora_nl&id=2660&menuentry=soorten" target="_blank">http://www.soortenbank.nl/soorten.php?soortengroep=flora_nl&id=2660&menuentry=soorten</a><br>
English: Common Lilac<br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syringa_vulgaris" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syringa_vulgaris</a><br>French: lilas<br><a href="http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syringa_vulgaris" target="_blank">http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syringa_vulgaris</a></span></font></div>
<div><font><span></span> </font></div><div style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><font><span>Regards,<br>Roger</span></font></div></div></div></div><font><br>----------<br></font><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2"><br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></font><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2"><br>
Subject: Botanica</font><font><br></font>
<font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2">
<br></font><font>Roger,<br><br>Traditionally, two plants' names are muddled in with each other </font><font>in Northern Germany, certainly in Low Saxon and to a degree in German dialects with Low Saxon substrata.<br>
<br>When we say <i>Fleder</i> [ˈflɛˑɪdɝ] (German <i>Flieder</i>) you can't always be sure if we mean lilac or elder.<br><br>Lilac (Syringa):<br>Low Saxon: <br></font><div style="margin-left:40px"><font><font face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Blaue Wiern (Dithmarschen)</font></font><br>
<font><font face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Blausirien (Insel Pellworm)</font></font><br><font><font face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Blauwiern (Dithmarschen)</font></font><br><font><font face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Buschboom (Nordfriesl./Schlesw.)</font></font><br>
<font><font face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Eddelzierinjen (Nordhannover)</font></font><br><font><font face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Fleder (Norddeutschland)</font></font><br><font><font face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Fleren (Langfoerden/Oldenb. in O.)</font></font><br>
<font><font face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Flerer (Vorpommern)</font></font><br><font><font face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Floeoer(e)n (Ostfriesland)</font></font><br></div><font><font face="verdana,arial,helvetica"><br>
</font></font><font><font face="verdana,arial,helvetica"><font size="1">[<a href="http://www.blumen-evers.de/">http://www.blumen-evers.de/</a>]</font></font></font><br>
<font><font face="verdana,arial,helvetica"><br>Many Low Saxon speakers call lilac <i>Syringen</i> [zyˈrɪˑŋː], <i>Sireen</i> [ziˈrɛɪˑn] or <i>Zirienjen</i> [ʦiˈriːnjɛn] (cf. Danish <i>syren</i>, Norwegian <i>syrin</i>, Swedish <i>syren</i>, Finnish <i>syreenit</i>, Estonian <i>sirel</i>).<br>
<br>However, when it comes to the berries of the elder (<i>Sambucus</i>), North Germans tend to call them <i>Fliederbeeren</i> in German and <i>Flederbeern</i> etc. The actual plant (which is interesting in folk traditions) has many local Low Saxon names; e.g.<br>
<br></font></font><div style="margin-left:40px"><font><font face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Allhorn</font></font><br><font><font face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Büssenholt</font></font><br>Ellhörn<br>Ellhoorn<br>Fledder<br>
Fledderboom<br>Fledderbeerboom<br>Flederbusch<br>Goosfleder<br>Halern<br>Holder(busch)<br>Holler(busch)<br>Hollern<br>Hollunder<br>Hollunner<br>Huller(busch)<br>Keikeboom<br>Keiliken<br>Keilkeboom<br>Kelkenbush<br>Kiddeboom<br>
</div><br><font><font face="verdana,arial,helvetica"><font size="1">[<a href="http://www.blumen-evers.de/">http://www.blumen-evers.de/</a>]</font></font></font><br><font><font face="verdana,arial,helvetica"><br></font></font><font>Cf. Danish <i>hyld</i>, Norwegian <i>hyll</i>, Swedish <i>f</i></font><i>läder, </i>Icelandic <i>yllir</i>, Sater Frisian<i> Kiddeboom</i><i>, </i>West Frisian <i>flear</i>, Estonian <i>leeder</i>.<br>
<br>Note also Scots <i>bourtree</i> and <i>black-bunnet</i> for elder, and <i>leylock</i> for lilac.<font><br><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br>Seattle, USA<br><span><br>
</span></font>
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<font><span style="line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;border-collapse:separate;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-transform:none;font-style:normal;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;border-collapse:separate;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-transform:none;font-style:normal;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;border-collapse:separate;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-transform:none;font-style:normal;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;border-collapse:separate;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-transform:none;font-style:normal;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;border-collapse:separate;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-transform:none;font-style:normal;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;border-collapse:separate;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-transform:none;font-style:normal;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;border-collapse:separate;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-transform:none;font-style:normal;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;border-collapse:separate;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-transform:none;font-style:normal;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;border-collapse:separate;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-transform:none;font-style:normal;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;border-collapse:separate;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-transform:none;font-style:normal;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;border-collapse:separate;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-transform:none;font-style:normal;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></font><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
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