<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font><font>==============================</font><font>=======================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 06 October 2012 - Volume 02<br><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a>
- <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/</a><br>
Posting: <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
Archive: <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html</a><br>
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)<br>
Language Codes: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php" target="_blank">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</a><br>
==============================</font><font>=======================</font></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font><font> </font></font></span></p><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">From: <span><span name="Mike Morgan"></span></span><span><span name="Mike Morgan"><span><span name="Sandy Fleming">Sandy Fleming</span> <span><a href="mailto:sandy@scotstext.org" target="_blank">sandy@scotstext.org</a></span></span></span><span></span></span><br>
Subject: <span>LL-L "Literature" 2012.10.06 (01) [EN]<br><br></span></span>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">From: <span><span name="Mike Morgan">Mike Morgan</span> <span><a href="mailto:mwmbombay@gmail.com" target="_blank">mwmbombay@gmail.com</a></span></span><br>
</span><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
Subject: <span>LL-L "Literature" 2012.10.05 (01) [EN]</span><br><br>
In connection with the discussion about haiku, I found this while<br>
poking around in the Scots corpus:<br><br><a href="http://www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk/corpus/search/document.php?documentid=922&highlight=ither" target="_blank">http://www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk/corpus/search/document.php?documentid=922&highlight=ither</a>
<br><br>
50 Haikus by Japanese Masters
<br>
by David Purves<br></span></blockquote></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">That's an
excellent set in excellent Scots, though I'm not sure if the Japanese
masters have quite lived up to Ron's standards :)<br><br>Many of these are what Ron would call senryu, I think? Eg:<br><br>
Ah think verra shame,</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
aw thir braw claes on me---<br>
no ae steik ma ain.<br><br>
Lady Sono-jo (1649-1723)</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br><br>
Even in ma ain</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
hame toun again, Ah sleep nou<br>
lyker a traivlar.<br><br>
Kyorai (1651-1704)</span><div><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><img src="https://mail.google.com/mail/images/cleardot.gif"></span></div></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
<span><span><span>Sandy Fleming<br>
<a href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">http://scotstext.org/</a></span></span></span><br><span><span><span><br>
<span style>-----------<br><br>From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>Subject: Literature<br><br>Hi, Sandy!<br><br>OK, here's where I agree with you: <br>
</span></span></span></span></span><ol><li><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span><span><span style></span></span></span>Many or most of the works in the said Scots corpus are impressive.</span></li>
<li><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Yes, the two examples you gave are clearly <i>senryū </i>rather than <i>haiku</i>.<br></span></li></ol><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span><span style>The terminology and rules/expectations are not of <i>my</i> making. They go back centuries in Japan, where they grew out of a tradition of poetic games (mostly New Year's games) from which the <i>haiku</i> and </span></span><span><span><span><span style><i>senryū </i>parts, once constituting a type of <i>pointe</i> in the game, remain till this days. The game has rules, so <span><span><span><span style><i>haiku</i> and</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span> <span><span><span><span style><i>senryū </i></span></span></span></span>come with traditional rules, or rather expectations. They have the same meter rules, but there are different expectations regarding their contents. <br>
<br>Westerners are used to meter and rhyme schemes determining poetic category. Some of the closest equivalents Western poetry has of East Asian poetry are labels such as "elegy" or "ode," and this has counterparts in Old Greek, Latin, Biblical Hebrew and Classical Arabic poetry as well. These distinction are less determined by linguistic form than by content and "mood."</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br><br>Personally, I don't thinks this is a case of pedantry and purism on my part. When I hear <span><span><span><span style><span><span><span><span style><i>"haiku</i>" (</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span style><span><span><span><span style><span id="result_box" class="short_text" lang="ja"><span class="">俳句)</span></span> and</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span> <span><span><span><span style><i>"senryū</i>" <span style="font-weight:normal">(<span class="t_nihongo_kanji" lang="ja">川柳</span>)</span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span style> I have certain expectations.</span></span></span></span><br>
<br>Fortunately, modern Japanese poets (who have been exposed to Western poetry) have been wrestling with similar issues and have eventually come up with a label for a new, freer-style derivative of <span><span><span><span style> <i>haiku</i> and </span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span style><i>senryū</i>: </span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span style><span id="result_box" class="short_text" lang="ja"><span class="">現代の</span><span class="">俳句</span></span> </span></span></span></span><i>gendai no haiku </i>(literally "contemporary/modern haiku"). I suggest we use this label for Western "haiku" to avoid unwarranted expectations. <span id="result_box" class="short_text" lang="ja"><span class="">西洋の</span><span class="">俳句</span></span> (<i>seiyō no haiku</i> "Western haiku") might be even more appropriate.<br>
<span><span><span><span style><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br>Seattle, USA<br></span></span> <br>
</span></span></span><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font><font>==============================</font><font>===========================<br>
Send posting submissions to <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>.<br>
Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.<br>
Send commands (including "signoff lowlands-l") to<br><a href="mailto:listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
or <a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a><br><a href="http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html" target="_blank">http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html</a>
.<br><a href="http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#%21/group.php?gid=118916521473498" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/group.php?gid=118916521473498</a>
<br>
==============================</font><font>============================ </font></font></span></p>