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L O W L A N D S - L - 07 October 2012 - Volume 02<br><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font><font> </font></font></span></p><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span><span><span>From: <span><span name="Sandy Fleming">Sandy Fleming</span> <span><a href="mailto:sandy@scotstext.org" target="_blank">sandy@scotstext.org</a></span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span><br>
Subject: <span>LL-L "Literature" 2012.10.05 (02) [EN-SC]</span></span></span></span></span><br><span><span><span><span><br></span></span></span></span></span><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span><span>From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Literature<br></span></span></span></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Personally, I don't thinks this is a case of pedantry and purism on my part. When I hear <span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><i>"haiku</i>" (</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span lang="ja"><span>俳句)</span></span> and</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span> <span><span><span><span><i>"senryū</i>" <span style="font-weight:normal">(<span lang="ja">川柳</span>)</span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span> I have certain expectations.</span></span></span></span><br>
<br>Fortunately, modern Japanese poets (who have been exposed to Western
poetry) have been wrestling with similar issues and have eventually
come up with a label for a new, freer-style derivative of </span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
<span><span><span> <i>haiku</i> and </span></span></span><span><span><span><span><i>senryū</i>: </span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span><span lang="ja"><span>現代の</span><span>俳句</span></span> </span></span></span></span><i>gendai no haiku </i>(literally "contemporary/modern haiku"). I suggest we use this label for Western "haiku" to avoid unwarranted expectations. <span lang="ja"><span>西洋の</span><span>俳句</span></span> (<i>seiyō no haiku</i> "Western haiku") might be even more appropriate.<br>
<span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span></span>
</div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></blockquote></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Yes,
the extent to which you would want to correct someone on the matter
would depend on the poet's intent and their success in carrying it out.<br><br>Similar things happen in the historical development of western
poetry: from
sonnets, through non-rhyming sonnets, to poems of 14 lines being called
sonnets, to anything being called a sonnet if the poet thinks they've
captured the essence of a sonnet! But reading over the previous sentence
I notice that it's only the first kind that I naturally call a sonnet
without further qualification.
<br><br>It still leaves the question of
whether someone like Bashō followed these conventions, or lived up to
these expectations. If you take his first four in this compilation, for
example:<br><br>C’awa lat’s see
<br>
aw the rael flouers<br>
o this dulefu warld!<br><br>
The fishmongir’s staw---
<br>
hou cauld the deid lips<br>
o the sautit bream.<br><br>
The lairk lilts abuin
<br>
aw day an the haill day<br>
is no lang aneuch.<br><br>
Back at the lair ---
<br>
Ah bend ma sabbin<br>
til the Back End wund!<br><br>it seems to me that there's no obvious
indication of season until we get to the fourth, and this seems par for
the course for me with Bashō.<br><br>The seasonal potential in Scots is
interesting: here, "Back End" is used for autumn, which is rather
negative, while you could also use "Hairst" (harvest), which is (in most
years, hopefully) positive.<br><br>What you're saying about the party game aspect is interesting,
though. As if the whole phenomenon has gone through stages from
development by the masters through codification for players to freeing
for the modern masters. But the idea of a sharp distinction between
haiku and <span><span><span><span>senryū
still seems somewhat artificial to me (feel free to enlighten me, of
course!): the desire to write haiku and the temptation to indulge in
social commentary seem to me to result in a fair overlap, giving poems
that could be classified in either way, for example from </span></span></span></span>Bashō again:<br><span><span><span><span><br></span></span></span></span>Cum lat’s gae<br>
an hae a look at the snaw<br>
or we’r aw beirit.<br><br>Renga as a game is very popular in some Deaf circles now, I was quite astonished when I first saw it live: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFq2o-y_yso" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFq2o-y_yso</a><br>
<br>(I couldn't find any other way of including the film here? There seemed to be no embedding code.)</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
<br><br>For
very short poems in sign languages, such as you might call haiku, it's
quite usual to try to sign the whole thing using a single handshape:
this adds to the poetic effect in some ways, and limits it in others.<br><br><span><font color="#888888">Sandy Fleming<br><a href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">http://scotstext.org/</a></font></span><br><span><span><span><span></span></span> <br>
----------<br></span></span><br><font>From: R. F. Hahn <<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com"><span class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1349651443_7">sassisch@yahoo.com</span></a>><br>Subject: Literature</font><span></span><span><br>
<br></span></span><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Mike Morgan wrote:<br></span><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">"I suggest we use this label for Western "haiku" to avoid unwarranted expectations. <span lang="ja"><span>西洋の</span><span>俳句</span></span> (<i>seiyō no haiku</i> "Western haiku") might be even more appropriate"<br>
<span lang="ja"><span><br>西洋</span><span>俳句 <i>seiyō haiku</i></span></span> for short... although maybe 国際俳句<i> kokusai haiku</i> "international haiku" might be more appropriate, as NOT ALL non-Japanese haiku is written in the West, nor by westerners.<br>
</span></blockquote></div>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>Point well taken!<br><br>BTW, I've tried haiku in Chinese. It seems too easy, feels less than satisfactory.<br><br></span><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">post monsoon sun rays
<br>force their way through closed eyelids<br>oh, for cloudy morns!<br><br>5-7-5, with reference to season and "cutting word" ;-)<br></span></blockquote><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
Very nice! I like! <span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I like! <span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I like!</span></span></span><br><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
Sandy Fleming wrote:<br><br></span><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Renga as a game is very popular in some Deaf circles now, I was quite astonished when I first saw it live: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFq2o-y_yso" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFq2o-y_yso</a><br>
</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>Thanks! I seem to
understand only a fraction (perhaps wrongly too), but I can't get enough
of watching it. I find it fascinating, beautiful, actually touching, perhaps mostly
because of the "body language," especially the facial expressions. <br><br>(BTW, does letting one's head slump to one's right side at the end mean "fall asleep" or "end of verse" or ...? ;-))<br>
<br><i><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renga">Renga</a> </i>(<b><span style="font-weight:normal"><span class="t_nihongo_kanji" lang="ja">連歌</span></span></b>, Mandarin Chinese pronunciation <i>lián</i><i>gē</i>
'linked verse/song', 'poetic dialog') is a traditional Japanese poetic
game (typically played during the New Year's season) in which two or
more players respond to each other, or rather extend each other's poetic
works, using various prescribed meters and other types of rules that
apply to their "turns." <i>Haiku </i>and <font><i><span class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1349652466_9">senryū</span></i> were originally integral, required </font><i>renga</i> segments, but they have come to stand on their own as well. <br>
<br>OK,
all this is obviously quite East Asian, or "oriental" .... But it has spread
internationally, also into the Lowlands. Even though international haiku
(国際俳句<i> kokusai haiku</i> [thanks to our Mark]) looks as though it's freeing itself from some of the original Japanese rules or restrictions, non-Japanese poets dabbling with <i>haiku </i>and <font><i><span class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1349652466_9">senryū</span></i> would do well to familiarize themselves with the original ideas and intents, which go far beyond the 5-7-5 syllable rule. <i>Haiku</i> may initially appear "pretty" to Westerners' perception. But their actual appeal, their poignancy, goes a long way beyond mere prettiness. </font>I believe that this <b>can</b> be achieved in languages other than Japanese as well.<br>
<br>Thanks for sharing those Scots <i>haiku</i>, Sandy! I'm not sure I fully understand "Back at the lair ---
Ah bend ma sabbin / til the Back End wund!" (I understand all the words, but not the overall thing.)<br><br>As for the rest, they seem to give me <i>kigo</i> (<span style="font-weight:normal"><span class="t_nihongo_kanji" lang="ja">季語</span></span> "season word") clues:<br>
<br></span><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">C’awa lat’s see
<br>
aw the rael flouers<br>
o this dulefu warld!<br></span></blockquote><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>(For me: spring/summer.)<br><br>My (audacious) translation:<br><br></span><div style="margin-left:40px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Come on now! Let's see<br>
all the genuine flowers<br>of this gloomy world!<br></span></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">The fishmongir’s staw---
<br>
hou cauld the deid lips<br>
o the sautit bream.<br></span></blockquote><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br><font>(I associate the cold season [esp. winter and early spring] with this.)<span style="font-size:12pt"></span></font><br>
<br>My (audacious) translation:<br><font><br></font></span><div style="margin-left:40px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font>The fishmonger's stall<span>—</span></font><br>how cold they are, the dead lips<br>
of the salted bream!<br></span></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">The lairk lilts abuin
<br>
aw day an the haill day<br>
is no lang aneuch.<br></span></blockquote><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>(I'm thinking of spring and early summer.)<br><br>My (audacious) translation:<br><br></span><div style="margin-left:40px">
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Lark warbling above<font><span>—</span></font><br>from morning till evening<br>is not long enough.<br></span></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</span><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Cum lat’s gae<br>
an hae a look at the snaw<br>
or we’r aw beirit.<br></span></blockquote><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>(For me: (early) winter.)<br><br></span><div style="margin-left:40px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Come on now! Let's go<br>
and have a look at the snow!<br>Or we'll be buried.<br></span></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>What do you think, Sandy and others?<br><br>The <i>kigo</i> (<span style="font-weight:normal"><span class="t_nihongo_kanji" lang="ja">季語</span></span> "season word") very much depends on each geographical region and its season-based folkloristic tradition.<br>
<br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br>Seattle, USA<br><span><span><span><br></span></span></span></span>
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