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 L O W L A N D S - L - 18 November 2012 - Volume 01<br><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a>

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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font><font> </font></font></span></p><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font>From: </font><font><span><span name="Mike Morgan"></span></span></font><font><span><span name="Mike Morgan"></span></span></font><font><span><span name="Mike Morgan"><span class="gI"><span name="Pat Barrett" class="gD">Pat Barrett</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:pbarrett@cox.net">pbarrett@cox.net</a></span></span></span><span></span></span></font><font><span><span name="Sandy Fleming"><span><span name="heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk"><span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></font><span><span name="Michael McCartin"><span><span name="M.-L. Lessing"><span><span name="Douglas Hinton"><span><span name="M.-L. Lessing"><span><span name="Douglas Hinton"><span><span name="M.-L. Lessing"><span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span><font><br>














      Subject: </font><span></span><span><span></span></span><span><span><span></span></span></span><span><span><span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span><span class="gI">LL-L "Pronouns" 2012.11.17 (01) [EN]<br>

<br></span></span></span></span></span></span><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">My family on my mom’s side were from West Virginia and they never said 
“y’all”; it was something they thought of as Southern and they joked about it. I 
vaguely recall some people saying  something like “you’uns” but I 
interpreted it as “young uns”, or maybe “young ones” IS what I was hearing. I’m 
not sure and no one from that side is left to ask.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Pat Barrett</span></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>----------<br><br><font>From: </font><font><span><span name="Mike Morgan"></span></span></font><font><span><span name="Mike Morgan"></span></span></font><font><span><span name="Mike Morgan"><span class="gI"><span name="Pat Barrett" class="gD"></span></span></span></span></font><font><span><span name="Mike Morgan"><span class="gI"><span name="Pat Barrett" class="gD"><span class="gI"><span name="Mike Morgan" class="gD">Mike Morgan</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:mwmbombay@gmail.com">mwmbombay@gmail.com</a></span></span></span><span class="go"></span></span></span><span></span></span></font><font><span><span name="Sandy Fleming"><span><span name="heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk"><span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></font><span><span name="Michael McCartin"><span><span name="M.-L. Lessing"><span><span name="Douglas Hinton"><span><span name="M.-L. Lessing"><span><span name="Douglas Hinton"><span><span name="M.-L. Lessing"><span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span><font><br>














      Subject: </font><span></span><span><span></span></span><span><span><span></span></span></span><span><span><span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span><span class="gI">LL-L "Pronouns" 2012.11.17 (01) [EN]<br>

</span></span></span></span></span><br><span><span><span><span><span class="gI">David wrote, regarding the "proper" 2nd person plural pronoun:<br>
</span></span></span></span></span></span><div class="im"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
> If we<br>
> were to have a standard form of the language, wouldn't "you'uns" and the<br>
> delightful "us'uns" be preferred?<br><br></span>

</div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">well,  depends on HOW one decides on the Standard form? Do we go with<br>
most geographically widespread? used by the largest numbe rof<br>
speakers? form from the most prestigious dialect? But where exactly is<br>
that in the Appalchians? I am pretty sure every self respecting<br>
Southerner (or Applachian) feels HIS'N (or HER'N) dialect is the best<br>
;-)<br><br>
As the last volume of the Dictionary of American Regionalisms is now</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
finally out (earlier this year), perhaps wwoudl be interestign to see<br>
what it says... although here in Kathmandu, I don't have access to a<br>
copy ;-)<br><br>
Here's an article on the dictionary completion (which mentions, but</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
does not solve the you all vs y'all vs you'uns vs yunz vs youse vs you<br>
guys question)<br><br><a href="http://www.thestate.com/2012/02/26/2167570/dictionary-of-american-regional.html#.UKjYJ4ZLwlI" target="_blank">http://www.thestate.com/2012/02/26/2167570/dictionary-of-american-regional.html#.UKjYJ4ZLwlI</a></span>

<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br><br>
A bit more dated, but here is what it says in Raymond Hickey's chapter</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
in Irma Taavitsainen and Andreas H. Jucker's Diachronic Perspectives<br>
on Adress Term Systems (p 357)<br><br>
"In the section on Scotch-Irish grammatical features, Montgomery notes</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
"The pronoun you'uns 'you' (plural) ... as in 'you'uns make yourselves<br>
at home', was found by Kurath 'in the folk speech in Pennsylvania west<br>
of the Susquehanna, in large parts of West Virginia, and in the<br>
westernmost parts of Virginia and North Carolina' (Kurath 19549:67)<br><br>
from: </span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><a href="http://books.google.com.np/books?id=4zocJp7ZCJ0C&pg=PA357&lpg=PA357&dq=y%27all+us%27uns+you%27uns&source=bl&ots=cXjoR0m_Q9&sig=DqWCwd83G0hkBvIrUqrr-X_7NNw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=P9eoUOaTMIO6iQf7p4DADg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=y%27all%20us%27uns%20you%27uns&f=false" target="_blank">http://books.google.com.np/books?id=4zocJp7ZCJ0C&pg=PA357&lpg=PA357&dq=y%27all+us%27uns+you%27uns&source=bl&ots=cXjoR0m_Q9&sig=DqWCwd83G0hkBvIrUqrr-X_7NNw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=P9eoUOaTMIO6iQf7p4DADg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=y%27all%20us%27uns%20you%27uns&f=false</a><br>

<br>
Says "large parts of W Virginia", but not how large or which ones.</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span>
<div class="im"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
> This book is based on the West Virginia Appalachian<br>
> dialect. Perhaps, that is different from the East Tennessee and Western<br>
> North Carolina dialects I am familiar with.<br><br></span>

</div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I am not exactly the best judge in that I grew up all over the lower<br>
49 (and so readily accept ALL 2nd plural pronouns as okay.,.. and<br>
might would even use half of them myself given a chance!). My exposure<br>
was only when we visited each summer growing up (though I did live in<br>
peripheral areas for a couple pre-teen years: 11 months in the Florida<br>
Panhandle and 15 months in Fayetteville NC, albeit on an army base).<br><br>
My father, though, is from West Virginia (Davy, WV, a small coal</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
mining town -- got it's picture in Life magazine back in the 60s for<br>
the "World's longest flowerbox"), but doesn't really have -- to my ear<br>
-- a Southern or Apallachian dialect AT ALL. My mother, on the other<br>
hand, is from Ferrum, Virginia (near Rocky Mount, though NOT the Rocky<br>
Mount of Andy Griffith fame.. that was Rocky Mt, NC), and she clearly<br>
has retained her dialect throughout her life whereever we lived (and<br>
she continues to maintain it, though that is easy as they retired to<br>
Stedman, a village outside Fayetteville NC). Can't say if my dad uses<br>
a plural form and if he does which one (I am relying on memory), but<br>
my mom definitely does: and it is y'all.<br><br>
Y'all have a nice day now, y'hear!</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br><br>
mwm || *U*C> || mike || माईक || мика || マイク (aka Dr Michael W Morgan)</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
sign language linguist / linguistic typologist<br>
academic adviser, Nepal Sign Language Training and Research<br>
NDFN, Kathmandu, Nepal<br><br>----------<br><br><font>From: </font><font><span><span name="Mike Morgan"></span></span></font><font><span><span name="Mike Morgan"></span></span></font><font><span><span name="Mike Morgan"><span class="gI"><span name="Pat Barrett" class="gD"></span></span></span></span></font><font><span><span name="Mike Morgan"><span class="gI"><span name="Pat Barrett" class="gD"><span class="gI"><span name="Mike Morgan" class="gD">Mike Morgan</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:mwmbombay@gmail.com">mwmbombay@gmail.com</a></span></span></span><span class="go"></span></span></span><span></span></span></font><font><span><span name="Sandy Fleming"><span><span name="heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk"><span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></font><span><span name="Michael McCartin"><span><span name="M.-L. Lessing"><span><span name="Douglas Hinton"><span><span name="M.-L. Lessing"><span><span name="Douglas Hinton"><span><span name="M.-L. Lessing"><span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span><font><br>














      Subject: </font><span></span><span><span></span></span><span><span><span></span></span></span><span><span><span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span><span class="gI">LL-L "Pronouns" 2012.11.17 (01) [EN]<br>

</span></span></span></span></span><br><span><span><span><span><span class="gI">An' I reckon y'all might enjoy readin' this here article from West<br>
Virginia History magazine on the dialect:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.wvculture.org/history/journal_wvh/wvh30-2.html" target="_blank">http://www.wvculture.org/history/journal_wvh/wvh30-2.html</a><br>
<br>
(though nothing I saw regarding the you'uns vs y'all controversy)<br></span></span></span></span></span><br><span><span><span><span><span class="gI">mwm || *U*C> || mike || माईक || мика || マイク (aka Dr Michael W Morgan)<br>


sign language linguist / linguistic typologist<br>
academic adviser, Nepal Sign Language Training and Research<br>
NDFN, Kathmandu, Nepal<br><br>----------<br><br></span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span><span class="gI"><font>From: </font><font><span><span name="Mike Morgan"></span></span></font><font><span><span name="Mike Morgan"></span></span></font><font><span><span name="Mike Morgan"><span class="gI"><span name="Pat Barrett" class="gD"></span></span></span></span></font><font><span><span name="Mike Morgan"><span class="gI"><span name="Pat Barrett" class="gD"><span class="gI"><span name="Mike Morgan" class="gD"></span></span></span></span></span></span></font></span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span><span class="gI"><font><span><span name="Mike Morgan"><span class="gI"><span name="Pat Barrett" class="gD"><span class="gI"><span name="Mike Morgan" class="gD"><span class="gI"><span name="Sandy Fleming" class="gD">Sandy Fleming</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:sandy@scotstext.org">sandy@scotstext.org</a></span></span></span><span class="go"></span></span></span><span class="go"></span></span></span><span></span></span></font><font><span><span name="Sandy Fleming"><span><span name="heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk"><span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></font><span><span name="Michael McCartin"><span><span name="M.-L. Lessing"><span><span name="Douglas Hinton"><span><span name="M.-L. Lessing"><span><span name="Douglas Hinton"><span><span name="M.-L. Lessing"><span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span><font><br>














      Subject: </font><span></span><span><span></span></span><span><span><span></span></span></span><span><span><span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span><span class="gI">LL-L "Pronouns" 2012.11.17 (01) [EN]</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br>

</span><div class="im"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font><font> </font></font></span><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font>From: </font><font><span><span name="Mike Morgan"></span></span></font><font><span><span name="Mike Morgan">David B Alexander <<a href="mailto:dbalexander2@gmail.com" target="_blank">dbalexander2@gmail.com</a>></span><span></span></span></font><font><span><span name="Sandy Fleming"><span><span name="heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk"><span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></font><span><span name="Michael McCartin"><span><span name="M.-L. Lessing"><span><span name="Douglas Hinton"><span><span name="M.-L. Lessing"><span><span name="Douglas Hinton"><span><span name="M.-L. Lessing"><span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span></span><span></span></span><font><br>
















      Subject: </font><span></span><span><span></span></span><span><span><span></span></span></span><span><span><span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><span><span><span><span>Subject: Vocabulary
<br></span></span></span></span><br>I just received a copy of Alice's Adventures in Appalachian Wonderland. 
Looking to the vocabulary I noticed it uses the contraction y'all for 
you all rather then you'uns. There is no entry for us'uns although there
 is an entry for young'uns. This book is based on the West Virginia 
Appalachian dialect. Perhaps, that is different from the East Tennessee 
and Western North Carolina dialects I am familiar with. (Appalachian was
 probably distinct enough at one time to be a language, but lacked the 
political standing needed.)<br><br>
In Arkansas, where I now live, I have been surprised to hear longtime 
residents using "you'uns" instead of "y'all." Most Arkansans, even in 
the highland areas, say, "y'all."
<br><br>
My question: Isn't "y'all" a more recent borrowing into Appalachian? If 
we were to have a standard form of the language, wouldn't "you'uns" and 
the delightful "us'uns" be preferred?
<br>
Or is my experience just too limited? <br></span></blockquote></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I
 haven't started reading this book yet, but would like to discuss the 
idea of what a standard language is, especially with respect to the 
current situation in Scots. Not that the subject hasn't been done to 
death in the past; but my ideas have changed since then, so it needs 
doing to death again.<br><br>The situation with Scots is that nobody agrees on how it should be 
written. There are groups that agree vaguely, but even within these 
groups, an agreement that would produce a standard form of the language 
isn't forthcoming. Indeed, it's very rare for a writer in Scots to even 
agree with himself (women writers not excluded!), and the only way I can
 achieve self-consistency without an external standard is by 
concordancing on a computer.</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br><br>I haven't actually explained what I would consider to be a standard 
form of a language. Maybe I could give a few examples to start.</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br><br>Like
 Catalan, a standard form of the language would make it possible to 
publish regular newspapers in the language that everyone's happy to 
read.<br><br>Like Finnish, it would be a form that people can write consistently even if nobody actually speaks it.</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br><br>Like
 English, any variations would be generally understood and not 
significant enough to be worth worrying about (eg colour vs color: I 
know some people moan about this, but that's nationalism rather than 
linguistics; there can't really be a rational basis for making a fuss 
over a very limited number of insignificant differences that are agreed 
on throughout a wide publishing domain and recognisable outside that 
domain).<br><br>With Scots, a lot of people, especially academics, think that Scots 
shouldn't be written in anything but dialectical form, possibly with 
some creatively fantastic forms thrown in.</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br><br>But there are also 
those who believe that Scots will never thrive unless a standard form is
 laid down and accepted. Unfortunately, their actions tend to contradict
 their beliefs: they'll accept taking words they don't know from 
dictionaries and learning to use them to strengthen the language, but 
they draw the line at allowing words, or even just variant 
pronunciations, to creep into what they see as standard language. Put 
briefly, they're happy to use new forms in their writing, as long as 
it's only augmenting their own dialect, not contradicting it.<br><br>I think there comes a point where if a language is to survive 
against media onslaught and natural erosion, it's necessary to go 
fundamentalist on the idea of a standard form of the language, and for 
someone (lexicographers? publishers? government? - whatever works) to 
say that "you have to spell this word this way or you're not writing 
Scots, but a dialect of Scots".</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br><br>But Scots writers and academics, even the ones who want a standard 
language and imagine they're supporting the idea, seem much more 
attached to their own dialects, sometimes only certain aspects of their 
own dialects, than to any concrete idea of a standard language where 
they'd have to spell the way they're told. Is it worth dropping all your
 own notions about how Scots should be written, in order to ensure a 
future for Scots? Few seem to think so!</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br><br>In the Victorian revival of Scots, it was normal for Doric writers 
to write "wha" rather than "fa", and "no" rather than "nae". They went 
along with the accepted practice in other dialects. This would be less 
likely now, and the opposite idea, of basing standard Scots on Doric 
pronunciation, would seem almost impossible to implement.</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br><br>To me, this means that Scots, whether you think of it as a language 
or a set of dialects, will eventually die out. For a language to reach 
full maturity, its speakers have to stop thinking of it as their baby. 
Especially if, as with Scots speakers, that means choking it to death 
rather than letting it play with the horrible children across the 
street.</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br><br>It seems ever more likely that Scotland will gain independence in 
the next few years. I don't think this means anything in terms of the 
survival of the language, although it might put standardisation higher 
on the political agenda, which could be helpful. Nationalists tend to 
use the language as a political tool, however, some even making out that
 they speak it even when it's obvious that they don't. There seems no 
reason to believe they'd continue the charade once they'd achieved their
 political ends.</span>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br><br>I think that the most likely scenario is that Scots will go the way 
of Cornish. Once nobody speaks it any more, there will be a generation 
who want it back and are willing to learn it, but aren't emotionally 
attached to specific dialects. I'm thinking Scots would then fare even 
better than Cornish, considering the large amount of material the 
neoScots would have to work with, including a large corpus of literature
 and several dictionaries, two of them very large and scholastic.</span>

<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br><br>Of course, the Scots they devise as a standard for themselves 
wouldn't be like the Scots we know, and would be pooh-poohed (or rather 
"[a:xt]-ed") away by Scots speakers of the present time, but then so 
would any standard anybody might create for us now.<span><span><span><span><span class="gI"><span><span><span><span><span class="gI"><br></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br><span class="HOEnZb adL">Sandy Fleming...<br>

...who
 spent a considerable amount of time in a shop yesterday trying to 
figure out what other shop the woman was directing me to (it turns out 
that by "Afeena" she meant "Athena") and now fears for the future of 
English too :)<br>
<a href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">http://scotstext.org/</a><br><br></span></span><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font><font>==============================</font><font>===========================<br>







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