<div dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;text-align:center;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">==============================</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">=======================</font></span><div style="text-align:center">
<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> L O W L A N D S - L - 29 March 2013 - Volume 02</font></div><div style="text-align:center"><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">lowlands.list@gmail.com</font></span></a><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> - </font><a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">http://lowlands-l.net/</font></span></a></div>
<div style="text-align:center"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> Posting: </font><a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistli</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">st.org</font></span></a></div>
<div style="text-align:center"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> Archive: </font><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">http://listserv.linguistlist.o</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">rg/archives/lowlands-l.html</font></span></a></div>
<div style="text-align:center"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)</font></div><div style="text-align:center"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> Language Codes: </font><a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</font></span></a></div>
<div style="text-align:center"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> ==============================</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">=======================</font></div><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal">
<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <<a href="mailto:Osnabryg%2BLowlands@googlemail.com">Osnabryg+Lowlands@googlemail.com</a>></font></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2013.03.29 (01) [DE, EN]</font></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Am 29.03.2013 um 01:10 schrieb <span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">R. F. Hahn:</span><br>
</font></div><blockquote type="cite"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">The existence of Scots <span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><em>fechtie</em></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span> </span></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">[ˈfe:çti:] 'brave', 'courageous' (from</span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span> </span></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><em>fecht</em></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span> </span></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">[fe:çt] 'to fight') is pretty important in this context. Don't you think?</span></font></span></blockquote>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Freilich, Reinhard, das denke ich auch. </font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Ich habe noch ein Detail in Bezug auf Niederländisch und (West)Friesisch gefunden.</font></div>
<div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">WFriesisch <i>fochtig</i> "nass, feucht" wird im <i>Wurdboek fan de Fryske taal (WFT)</i> als <b>Hollandismus</b> gekennzeichnet, also eigentlich nicht friesisch. Für "feucht, nass" hat das Friesische hauptsächlich <i>wiet</i> [<span><span>vi.ət / </span></span>ve:t] vgl. EN <i>wet</i>. </font></div>
<div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Meine Behauptung </font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div><div><blockquote type="cite">
<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">It (the word <i>vochtig</i>) had better developed as NL <i>vuucht(ig)</i> of <i>vuicht(tig)</i>, by this letting place to a desirable and <b>possible</b> NL <i>vechtig / vachtig / vochtig</i> (from <b>existing!) NL <i>vecht / vacht / vocht</i></b> EN <i>fight, battle </i>etc).</span><br>
</font></blockquote></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><b>enthält Irrtümer</b>. Wie jetzt gerade LL-Freund <i>Henry Pijffers</i> richtig schreibt:</font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div>
<div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">There is also the word "vechtich" in the Delft Bible of 1477 (Jeremia 14:9), but there it seems to mean rather the opposite of brave.</font></div>
</blockquote><br><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Die genaue Bedeutung von <i>vechtich</i> in der Bibel-Fundstelle scheint mir nicht wesentlich, sie kommt jedenfalls von <i>vechten</i> "fechten". Wichtiger scheint mir, dass es im <i>Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal (WNT)</i> unter <i>vechten</i> mitaufgeführt wird:</font></div>
<div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div><div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="font-size:19px"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><b>Vechtig.</b> Alleen in de volg. aanh. aangetroffen voor: sterk, krachtig, strijdbaar. Verg. mnd. (O.-Friesl.) vechtich; en in afwijkende bet.: nhd. (gewest.) fechtig (Rhein. Wtb.), zwe. (gewest.) fäktig.</font></div>
</blockquote><div><b><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font></b> </div><div><b><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font></b> </div><div><b><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">M. a. W.: Auch Standard-NL hat eine ungefähre Entsprechung zu westfries. <i>fjochtig</i> LS/DE <i>fuchtig,</i> aber eben in der Lautung und Schreibung <i>vechtig</i>.</font></b></div>
<div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Henry weiter:</font></div></div></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">
<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">There is the word "hardvochtig" in Dutch, which now means heartless, callous, or harsh, but once used to mean brave.</font></div></blockquote></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Auf NL <i>hardvochtig</i> hatte ich auch schon Hoffnung gesetzt. Allerdings wird das Teilwort <i>vochtig</i> im WNT mit Körpersäften (vorwissenschaftliche Medizin und Psychologie) erklärt, also doch mit Feuchtigkeiten. Kann natürlich irrtümlich sein …</font></div>
<div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Und noch ein Irrtum von mir: auch <i>vachtig</i> gibt es in NL, allerdings in der Bedeutung "pelzig", von NL <i>vacht</i> "Fell, Pelz".<br>
</font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Und schließlich: Die genaue Längenqualität der Stammsilbe von NL <i>vochtig</i> ist mir nicht klar. Vielleicht ist sie als ['voˑçtıx] ja doch mit /füüchtig/ ['fyˑçtıx] vergleichbar, so dass mein Vorwurf "linguistical aberration" nicht oder weniger zutrifft. Kann mich jemand aufklären?</font></div>
<div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Aber auch wenn eine Unsicherheit besteht, gehe ich jetzt davon aus, dass LS "Haul/Holl ju fuchtig" auf Friesisch <i>fjochtig</i> DE <i>fuchtig</i> und nicht auf NL <i>vochtig</i> "feucht" zurückgeht … <br>
</font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">--------------- Summary in my bad English: -------------------------</font></div><div><br><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I agree with Ron's statement about the importance of <span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Scots </span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><em>fechtie</em></span></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span> </span></span></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">[ˈfe:çti:] 'brave', 'courageous' (from</span></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span> </span></span></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><em>fecht</em></span></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span> </span></span></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">[fe:çt] 'to fight') in this context and add the detail, that (West) Frisian <i>fochtig</i> in the sense of "moist" is an Hollandism, while the mostly used Frisian word for "moist, wet" is </span></span><i>wiet</i> [<span><span>vi.ət / </span></span>ve:t].<br>
</font></div><div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">My former statement</font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div><div><blockquote type="cite"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">It (the word <i>vochtig</i>) had better developed as NL <i>vuucht(ig)</i> of <i>vuicht(tig)</i>, by this letting place to a desirable and <b>possible</b> NL <i>vechtig / vachtig / vochtig</i> (from <b>existing!) NL <i>vecht / vacht / vocht</i></b> EN <i>fight, battle </i>etc).</font></span></blockquote>
<br></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><b>contains errors</b>. As <i>Henry Pijffers</i> writes:</font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">
<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">There is also the word "vechtich" in the Delft Bible of 1477 (Jeremia 14:9), but there it seems to mean rather the opposite of brave.</font></div></blockquote></div><div>
<br>
<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Anyway it derives from NL vechten. <i>Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal (WNT) </i>says:</font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><div><blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-size:19px"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><b>Vechtig.</b> Alleen in de volg. aanh. aangetroffen voor: sterk, krachtig, strijdbaar. Verg. mnd. (O.-Friesl.) vechtich; en in afwijkende bet.: nhd. (gewest.) fechtig (Rhein. Wtb.), zwe. (gewest.) fäktig.</font><b><br>
</b></div></blockquote></div><div><b><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">In other words: there is a Dutch correspondent to Frisian </font><span style="font-weight:normal"><b><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><i>fjochtig</i> LS/DE </font><i><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">fuchtig</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">, but as "vechtig".</font></i></b></span><br>
</b><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Henry further:</font></div></div></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">There is the word "hardvochtig" in Dutch, which now means heartless, callous, or harsh, but once used to mean brave.</font></div>
</blockquote></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I already supposed a derivation from <i>vechten</i>, too. But WNT interprets <i>-vochtig</i> here from juices, humours from pre-scientic medicine and psychology.</font></div>
<div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Another error of mine: <i>vachtig</i> exists already in Dutch but with the meaning of "furry" from <i>vacht</i> animal "fur, fleece".</font></div>
<div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Finally: I don't know the exact length of the first syllable of <i>vochtig</i> in Dutch. Any suggestion? Might also be ['voˑçtıx] and so comparable with LS /füüchtig/ ['fyˑçtıx] "moist, wet". So far not a "linguistical aberration".</font></div>
<div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Aber auch wenn eine Unsicherheit besteht, gehe ich jetzt davon aus, dass LS "Haul/Holl ju fuchtig" auf Friesisch <i>fjochtig</i> DE <i>fuchtig</i> </font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">und nicht auf NL <i>vochtig</i> "feucht" zurückgeht … </font></div>
<div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">So even if there remains a certain unsureness, I keep now with the opinion, that LS "Haul/Holl ju fuchtig" derives from Frisian <i>fjochtig</i> DE <i>fuchtig</i> and not from NL <i>vochtig</i> "moist, wet" …</font></div>
</div></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Thank you, Ron and Henry for your contributions,</font></div><br><div><span style="text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;border-collapse:separate"><span style="text-transform:none;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-family:Georgia;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;border-collapse:separate"><div style="font-size:medium">
<span style="font-size:19px">Met echt-westfœlsken »Goutgaun!«</span><br style="font-size:19px"><span style="font-size:19px">joachim</span></div><div><span style="font-size:19px">--<br></span><span style="font-size:18px">Kreimer-de Fries - </span><br style="font-size:18px">
<span style="font-size:18px">Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow </span><span style="font-size:18px">skype kreimer-de_fries</span></div></span></span></div></font></div></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal">
<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div></span><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;text-align:center;line-height:normal"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">==============================</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">===========================</font></span><div style="text-align:center">
<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> Send posting submissions to </font><a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistli</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">st.org</font></span></a><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">.</font></div>
<div style="text-align:center"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.</font></div><div style="text-align:center"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> Send commands (including "signoff lowlands-l") to</font></div>
<div style="text-align:center"><a href="mailto:listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">listserv@listserv.linguistlist</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">.org</font></span></a><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> or </font><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">lowlands.list@gmail.com</font></span></a></div>
<div style="text-align:center"><a href="http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">http://linguistlist.org/subscr</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">ibing/sub-lowlands-l.html</font></span></a><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> .</font></div>
<div style="text-align:center"><a href="http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#%21/group.php?gid=118916521473498" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">http://www.facebook.com/?ref=l</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">ogo#!/group.php?gid=1189165214</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">73498</font></span></a><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div>
<div style="text-align:center"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">==============================</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">============================</font></div></p></p></div>