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L O W L A N D S - L - 09 April 2013 - Volume 02<br></font></font><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">lowlands.list@gmail.com</font></a></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> - </font><a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">http://lowlands-l.net/</font></a><br>
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<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><font color="#000000"><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <<a href="mailto:Osnabryg%2BLowlands@googlemail.com">Osnabryg+Lowlands@googlemail.com</a>></font><font color="#000000"><span><br>
</span><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2013.04.09 (02) [EN]</font></font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Am 03.04.2013 um 23:39 schrieb Marcus Buck:</font></div>
<br><blockquote type="cite"><span style="text-transform:none;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-family:Georgia;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;border-collapse:separate"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">In the 1930 book "Deutsche Grußformeln in neuhochdeutscher Zeit" there is a small section about "holl di fuchtig". It cites an expression used in the Vierlanden: "</font><span><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Holl<span> </span><em>di fuchtig</em><span> </span>as de Pogg' in't Wáter" (…). So there are at least some native speakers who identify the word to mean "wet". Although that doesn't mean that this identification is universal or the original meaning.<br>
</font></span></span></span></blockquote><div><b><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">So finally a competent support for my first assumption:</font></b></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div>
<div>
<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><b>LS <i>fuchtig</i> = DE <i>feucht</i> NL <i>vochtig</i> EN <i>wet</i> etc.</b> and by that an argument <b>against</b> the derivation of LS 'fuchtig' from Frisian 'fjochterig', Scots <i>fechtie</i> [ˈfe:çti:] 'brave', 'courageous' (from fecht [fe:çt] 'to fight'), which came from Hannelore Hinz and Reinhard Hahn (and persuaded me for the time until your new posting, Marcus).<br>
</font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">So, the question seems at least "open". I tend to come back to my interpretation in my posting of 2012-03-28:</font></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">So might be, the origin of word within the phrase was NL <i>vochtig </i>LS [fy:χtɪx] EN fresh, but then in the meaning mixed with the nowadays Germany-wide used <i>fuchtig [fuχtɪx]</i> in the sense of EN <i>fighting</i>. </span><br>
</font></blockquote></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Within this, I have to correct »<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">LS [fy:χtɪx]« into LS ['fo</span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">χtɪx | 'fu</span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">χtɪx], /fochtig | fuchtig/ </span>because<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> I agree with Marcus' argument</span></font></div>
<div><blockquote type="cite"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">there seems to be an additional rule that changed "üücht" to "ücht": "süchten" (German "seufzen") and "lüchten" (German "leuchten").</font></span></blockquote>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I think, Marcus' instances have the stronger convincibility:<br></font></div><blockquote type="cite"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span>The book also references the "Versuch eines bremisch-niedersächsichen Wörterbuches" dictionary, volume I, page 461, where it says (I cite the full entry on "fucht"):<span> </span><br>
<i>FUCHT, feucht, uvidus. A.S. fucht. H. vucht und vocht. Sik fucht holden: sich wohl und tapfer halten, strenuum se gerere. Eigentlich will es sagen: bis zum Schweiß arbeiten. Im Scherz sagt man auch: holt di fucht, averst pisse nig in 't Bedde: halt dich wohl.</i><br>
<br>This dictionary is from 1767, so the expression is definitely very old.</span><span><span>"Versuch eines bremisch-niedersächsichen Wörterbuches" is one of or even _the_ oldest dictionary of Modern Low Saxon.</span></span></font></span></blockquote>
<div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Thank you Marcus for your elucidation! </font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Hannelore, Reinhard and other friends of LS "Haul/Holl ju fuchtig!", <b>do you agree with Marcus' arguments or have you still supplementary arguments for your derivation LS <i>fuchtig</i> < <i>fechten</i>?</b></font></div>
<div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div><div><span style="text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;border-collapse:separate"><span style="text-transform:none;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-family:Georgia;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;border-collapse:separate"><div>
<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span>Met echt-westfœlsken »Goutgaun!«</span><br><span>joachim</span></font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span>--<br></span><span>Kreimer-de Fries - </span><br>
<span>Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow </span><span>skype kreimer-de_fries</span></font></div></span></span></div></div></font><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div><p><span lang="en"><span><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">----------</font></span></span></p>
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L O W L A N D S - L - 09 April 2013 - Volume 02<br>
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</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span lang="DE" style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <<a href="mailto:Osnabryg%2BLowlands@googlemail.com">Osnabryg+Lowlands@googlemail.com</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2013.04.09 (02) [EN]</font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span lang="DE" style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span lang="DE" style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Am 03.04.2013 um 23:39 schrieb Marcus Buck:</font></span></p>
<font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><span lang="DE" style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font></span><blockquote style="margin-right:0px" dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span lang="DE" style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">In the 1930 book "Deutsche Grußformeln in
neuhochdeutscher Zeit" there is a small section about "holl di
fuchtig". It cites an expression used in the Vierlanden: "Holl <i>di
fuchtig</i> as de Pogg' in't Wáter" (…). </font></span><span style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">So there are at least some
native speakers who identify the word to mean "wet". Although that
doesn't mean that this identification is universal or the original meaning.<br>
<br>
</font></span></p></blockquote><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><b><span style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">So
finally a competent support for my first assumption:</span></b><span style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></font></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><b><span style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">LS <i>fuchtig</i>
= DE <i>feucht</i> NL <i>vochtig</i> EN <i>wet</i> etc.</span></b><span style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> and by that an argument <b>against</b>
the derivation of LS 'fuchtig' from Frisian 'fjochterig', Scots <i>fechtie</i>
[ˈfe:çti:] 'brave', 'courageous' (from fecht [fe:çt] 'to fight'),
which came from Hannelore Hinz and Reinhard Hahn (and persuaded me
for the time until your new posting, Marcus).</span></font></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">So,
the question seems at least "open". I tend to come back to my
interpretation in my posting of 2012-03-28:</font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">So
might be, the origin of word within the phrase was NL <i>vochtig </i>LS [fy:χtɪx]
EN fresh, but then in the meaning mixed with the nowadays Germany-wide
used <i>fuchtig [fuχtɪx]</i> in the sense of EN <i>fighting</i>. </font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Within
this, I have to correct »LS [fy:χtɪx]« into LS ['foχtɪx | 'fuχtɪx],
/fochtig | fuchtig/ because I agree with Marcus' argument</font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">there
seems to be an additional rule that changed "üücht" to
"ücht": "süchten" (German "seufzen") and
"lüchten" (German "leuchten").</font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
I think, Marcus' instances have the stronger convincibility:</font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">The
book also references the "Versuch eines bremisch-niedersächsichen
Wörterbuches" dictionary, volume I, page 461, where it says (I cite the
full entry on "fucht"): <br>
<i>FUCHT, feucht, uvidus. </i></span><i><span lang="DE" style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">A.S. fucht. H. vucht und
vocht. Sik fucht holden: sich wohl und tapfer halten, strenuum se gerere.
Eigentlich will es sagen: bis zum Schweiß arbeiten. Im Scherz sagt man auch:
holt di fucht, averst pisse nig in 't Bedde: halt dich wohl.</span></i></font><span lang="DE" style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><br><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
<br>
</font></span><span style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">This
dictionary is from 1767, so the expression is definitely very old."Versuch
eines bremisch-niedersächsichen Wörterbuches" is one of or even _the_
oldest dictionary of Modern Low Saxon.</font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Thank
you Marcus for your elucidation! </font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Hannelore,
Reinhard and other friends of LS "Haul/Holl ju fuchtig!", <b>do you
agree with Marcus' arguments or have you still supplementary arguments for
your derivation LS <i>fuchtig</i> < <i>fechten</i>?</b></font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span lang="DE" style="color:black;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Met echt-westfœlsken
»Goutgaun!«<br>
joachim</font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span lang="DE" style="color:black;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">--<br>
Kreimer-de Fries - <br>
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow skype kreimer-de_fries</font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span lang="DE" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></font></span></p>
<font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN" style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">----------</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></font></font></p>
<font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">From: R. F.
Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Etymology</font></font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Thanks,
Joachim!</font></font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Personally, I
feel that folk etymology based on inter-dialectal borrowing is at play here.</font></font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I know Low
Saxon <i>fucht</i> as ‘moist’ (cf. German <i>feucht</i>), alternatively <i>fuchtig</i>.
(<i>–ig</i> is the Low Saxon and German equivalent of Modern English <i>–y</i>).
However, on the basis of predictable shifts <u>from German</u>, this should be<i>
*füücht</i>. Yet, Dutch <i>vochtig</i> for ‘moist’ indicates that Low Saxon <i>fuchtig
~ fochtig</i> is correct, since Dutch, West Flemish, Limburgish and Low Saxon (<i>Plattdeutsch</i>)
are members of “Low German”.</font></font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">The Eastern
Friesland version <i>fuchtig</i> ‘courageous’, ‘feisty’, ‘belligerent’, may
have been imported into other Low Saxon dialects, where other Low Saxon
dialects should, hypothetically speaking, have *<i>fechtig</i> (from <i>fecht-</i>
‘fight’). This may have created a homonym: <i>fuchtig</i> (1) ‘moist’, ‘clam’,
(2) ‘courageous’, ‘feisty’, ‘belligerent’.</font></font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">A less complex
case of inter-dialectal Low Saxon borrowing is <i>drög’</i> [drœˑɪj] ‘dry’, ‘uninteresting’,
being imported into Northern “High” German and from there into <i>eu</i>
dialects of Low Saxon (mostly of the Lower Elbe Region, including Hamburg) which
predictably would have [drɔˑɪç] (<i>dreuch</i> ~ <i>dräuch</i>) for the same.</font></font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA</font></font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p align="center" style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;text-align:center;line-height:normal"><span style="color:black;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">=========================================================<br>
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<span style="color:black">==========================================================</span></font></font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><font color="#000000"></font> </p></span><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font></p></span><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal">
<span lang="en"><span><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font></span></span></p></div></span><p><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </p><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><blockquote style="margin-right:0px" dir="ltr">
<p align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">==============================</font></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">===========================<br>
Send posting submissions to </font></font><a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistli</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">st.org</font></font></a><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">.<br>
Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.<br> Send commands (including "signoff lowlands-l") to<br></font><a href="mailto:listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">listserv@listserv.linguistlist</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">.org</font></font></a></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> or </font><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">lowlands.list@gmail.com</font></a><br>
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</font><a href="http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#%21/group.php?gid=118916521473498" target="_blank"><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">http://www.facebook.com/?ref=l</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">ogo#!/group.php?gid=1189165214</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">73498</font></font></a></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
<font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> ==============================</font></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">============================</font></font></span></p>
</blockquote></div>