<div dir="ltr"><p align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">==============================</font></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">=======================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 19 April 2013 - Volume 01<br></font></font><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">lowlands.list@gmail.com</font></a></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> - </font><a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">http://lowlands-l.net/</font></a><br>
<font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> Posting: </font><a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistli</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">st.org</font></font></a><br>
<font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> Archive: </font><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html" target="_blank"><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">http://listserv.linguistlist.o</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">rg/archives/lowlands-l.html</font></font></a><br>
<font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)<br> Language Codes: </font><a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php" target="_blank"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</font></a><br>
<font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> ==============================</font></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">=======================</font></font></span></p>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">From: <span name="Jonny Meibohm"><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Jonny Meibohm"><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Jonny Meibohm"><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Mark and Ruth Dreyer"><span name="Paul Baronowsky"><span name="Mark Brooks"><span name="Pat Barrett"><span name="Mark and Ruth Dreyer"><span name="Luc Vanbrabant">Luc Vanbrabant</span> <span><<a href="mailto:lucv32@gmail.com">lucv32@gmail.com</a>></span></span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span> </font></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2013.04.18 (02) [EN]</font></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><div><div><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span name="Jonny Meibohm"><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Jonny Meibohm"><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Jonny Meibohm"><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Mark and Ruth Dreyer"><span name="Paul Baronowsky"><div>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Dag allemaal,<br><br></font><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="en"><span>'</span><span>Beyond'</span> <span>is related to</span> <span>our</span> <span>(Saxon</span><span>)</span><span>Flemish</span> <span>(</span><span>Nederlands</span> <span>in brackets</span><span>)</span><span>:</span><br>
<br><span></span></span>gunt gunt</font></font><span lang="en"><span></span><span></span><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> <span>guntste</span> <span>gintste</span> <span>(daar</span><span></span><span>)</span> <span></span><span>E</span><span>:</span> <span>there</span><br>
<span>Gunter</span> <span>ginter</span> <span>Gunster</span> <span>Ginster</span> <span>(</span><span>ginder</span><span>)</span> <span>E</span><span>: over there</span></font></font></span><span lang="en"><span><br><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> 'Beyond'</font></span><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> <span>sounds</span> not odd <span>in Flemish</span> <span>:</span><span></span> <span>begunt</span> <span>beginst</span> <span>...</span> <span></span><span>(even though</span> <span>that word</span> <span>does not exist</span></font></font><span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">)<br>
</font></span></span><span lang="en"><span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">It is like 'besides', in Flemish 'bezijds' ( bezijden)<br><br></font></span></span><span lang="en"><span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Groetjes,<br>
<br></font></span></span><span lang="en"><span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Luc Vanbrabant<br></font></span></span><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="en"><span>Oekene<br>
</span></span><br></font></font><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt">
<div><div><div><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span name="Jonny Meibohm"><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Jonny Meibohm"><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Jonny Meibohm"><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Mark and Ruth Dreyer"><span name="Paul Baronowsky">Paul & Ron:</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span name="Jonny Meibohm"><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Jonny Meibohm"><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Jonny Meibohm"><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Mark and Ruth Dreyer"><span name="Paul Baronowsky"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span name="Jonny Meibohm"><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Jonny Meibohm"><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Jonny Meibohm"><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Mark and Ruth Dreyer"><span name="Paul Baronowsky"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Subject: LL-L "Phonology"</font></span></div>
<div><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">On 4/17/2013 6:35 PM, Ron F. Hahn wrote:</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">What seems like a large percentage of American English speakers<br>
pronounces the word "beyond" like "be-ond" ([biˈʔɔnd], instead of<br>like [biˈjɔnd]).</font></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div>
</div><div><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Paul wrote:<br><br>It seems to me that [biˈʔɔnd] would be more difficult to pronounce than [biˈjɔnd], and therefore less frequent. In progressing from the "i" sound, with the back of tongue against the roof of the mouth, to the "o" sound, with the tongue against the floor of the mouth, would not the "y" sound be made automatically in the absence of a glottal stop? (Try saying "ia-ia-ia" and see how the tongue moves.) Tightening the muscles of the throat to stop the flow of air between "i" and "o" would take more energy.</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Mark here:</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">May I suggest that the question may be more satisfactorily answered philologically rather than phonologically?</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">For example in the English of our grandfathers of old (who learned it in school), there is the word 'yonder' - meaning 'over that way', & the word 'thither' meaning something similar, or 'over in that place' as opposed to 'there' by which they but not we would have meant merely 'that place' with no implication of distance.</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Then again, the 'be-' may be a prefix modifier belonging to a hard-used group of the same in all West Netherfrankish languages including Anglian & Old English (Quirk & Wrenn) & beyond, along with 'ge-', 'her-', 'er-', 'ont-' & 'ver-'.</font></span></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">In Afrikaans for example we have</span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> 'besonder' - 'singular', 'gesonder' - 'separated' & 'sonder' - 'without'.</span></font></font></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">English still has 'bewitched', 'bebothered' & 'bewildered'... Also 'beyond'; all old words with dangling ends & histories, but then that is one of the charms of English.</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Ron, greetings from an old lurker, if you can forgive that & my ungraceful advent, after so long. It is only because of the general level of erudition that I so seldom have any mite to contribute to the common pool myself, but I sup shamelessly.</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Paul, you will have fun here. I guarantee it.</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Love to all, & the same from my Ruth,</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Mark & Ruth</font></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></span></div></blockquote></div></div></span></div>
</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div></div><div><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">----------</font></div>
<div><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">From: <span name="Jonny Meibohm"><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Jonny Meibohm"><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Jonny Meibohm"><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Mark and Ruth Dreyer"><span name="Paul Baronowsky"><span name="Mark Brooks"><span name="Pat Barrett"><span name="Mark and Ruth Dreyer"><span name="Luc Vanbrabant"><span name="Paul Baronowsky">Paul Baronowsky</span> <span><<a href="mailto:paulb1@insightbb.com">paulb1@insightbb.com</a>></span></span></span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span> </font><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt">
<font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2013.04.18 (02) [EN</font></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font color="#000000"></font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">On 4/18/2013 9:52 PM, Mark Dreyer wrote:<br><br></font><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Mark here:<br> May I suggest that the question may be more satisfactorily answered<br> philologically rather than phonologically?</font></blockquote><br><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> Hello Mark, Thank you for your comments, with which I completely agree. It seemed to me, however, that Ron's initial post was focused on the present day phonological aspect of the question, contrasting [biˈʔɔnd] with [biˈjɔnd]. I assumed that the first pronunciation had a glottal stop between the two syllables and no "y" sound - at least, that's what the IPA symbols indicate to me.<br>
<br> I still think that [biˈʔɔnd] would be more difficult to pronounce than [biˈjɔnd], and therefore less frequently used, regardless of philological history.<br><br> One (at least) error that I made was to write about the "o" sound. I should have written: the "a" sound - be-YAHND, as was pointed out by another poster (sorry, I don't have that post at hand right now).<br>
<br></font><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Paul, you will have fun here. I guarantee it.</font></blockquote>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> Thank you, Mark. I have had much fun already for over thirteen months, and I expect much more. I, too, have little to give and much to take, and I find the table to be well spread to my liking.<br>
<br> MfG, Paul (Baronowsky)</font></font></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">----------</font></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></font></div>
</div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Subject: Phonology</font></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt">
<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Luc, you wrote:</font></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><span lang="en"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">'<span>Beyond'</span> <span>is related to</span> <span>our</span> <span>(Saxon</span><span>)</span><span>Flemish</span> <span>(</span><span>Nederlands</span> <span>in brackets</span><span>)</span><span>:</span><br>
<span></span></font></blockquote></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">gunt gunt</font><span lang="en"><span></span><span></span><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> <span>guntste</span> <span>gintste</span> <span>(daar</span><span></span><span>)</span> <span></span><span>E</span><span>:</span> <span>there</span><br>
<span>Gunter</span> <span>ginter</span> <span>Gunster</span> <span>Ginster</span> <span>(</span><span>ginder</span><span>)</span> <span>E</span><span>: over there</span></font></font></span><span lang="en"><span></span></span></blockquote>
</div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div></div></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">In Northern Low Saxon:</font></div>
<div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">günt ~ gunt ~ günnen 'beyond'</font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">güntọ̈ver ~ guntọ̈ver 'beyond', 'opposite'</font></div>
<div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">güntsiet ~ guntsiet 'beyond'</font></div></div></div></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><div><div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font></div></div></div>
</div></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Paul:</font></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I still think that [biˈʔɔnd] would be more difficult to pronounce than [biˈjɔnd], and therefore less frequently used, regardless of philological history.</font></blockquote>
</div></div></div></span><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> What about "ask" having replaced earlier "aks"?</font></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Mark:</font></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">English still has 'bewitched', 'bebothered' & 'bewildered'... Also 'beyond'; all old words with dangling ends & histories, but then that is one of the charms of English.</font></blockquote>
</span></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font></div><div><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">And there's "belong".</font></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron</font></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt">
<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Seattle, USA</font></div><blockquote style="margin-right:0px" dir="ltr"><p align="center" style="text-align:center"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> <span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000">==============================</font></span></font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">===========================<br>
Send posting submissions to </font></font><a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistli</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">st.org</font></font></a><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">.<br>
Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.<br> Send commands (including "signoff lowlands-l") to<br></font><a href="mailto:listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">listserv@listserv.linguistlist</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">.org</font></font></a></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> or </font><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">lowlands.list@gmail.com</font></a><br>
<a href="http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html" target="_blank"><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">http://linguistlist.org/subscr</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">ibing/sub-lowlands-l.html</font></font></a></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">.<br>
</font><a href="http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#%21/group.php?gid=118916521473498" target="_blank"><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">http://www.facebook.com/?ref=l</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">ogo#!/group.php?gid=1189165214</font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">73498</font></font></a></span><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
<font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> ==============================</font></span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">============================ </font></font></span></p>
</blockquote></div>