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<font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> L O W L A N D S - L - 19 July 2013 - Volume 01</font></div><div style="text-align:center"><font color="#000000"></font><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(0,102,204)"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">lowlands.list@gmail.com</font></span></a><font color="#000000" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> - </font><a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(0,102,204)"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">http://lowlands-l.net/</font></span></a></div>
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<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">From: </font><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Tom Mc Rae"><font color="#000000"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span name="Mike Morgan">Mike Morgan</span> <span><<a href="mailto:mwmbombay@gmail.com">mwmbombay@gmail.com</a>></span></font></font></span><span><br>
</span></span><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2013.07.18 (01) [EN]</font></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt;line-height:normal"><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Regarding please and thank you...<br><br> Tom Mc Rae notes:<br></font></div>
<div class="im" style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> Delancey Place quoted the following from a book..<br>> -- saying "please" and "thank you" is not a universal<br>
> custom -- there are societies such as the Inuit, where it is not the case.<br></font></div><div class="im" style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> Having lived in West Africa for 11 years I would question this statement.<br>
> The old Asante Twi language has "thank you" as 'Medassi" and "Thank you<br></font></div><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> very much" as Medassi Pi." ...<br>
<br> I don't see the disagreement. After all the statement "is not<br> universal" does NOT equate with "is universally absent"...<br><br> The fact that use of "please" and "thank you" may "equate" in some way<br>
with "modern western values" does NOT mean that they may not ALSO<br> match well with certain (even many?) non-western non-"modern"<br> societies and languages.<br><br> Although I have some experience in other parts of the world (including<br>
Horn of Africa and southern part of EAST Africa), mostly I can speak<br> with "authority" about Asia only... and in GENERAL (though not without<br> exception) usage of phrases translated (tanslatable?) as "please" and<br>
"thank you" in a wide range of languages and societies has "migrated"<br> towards a Western (Euro-Amerfican) model over the years (i.e. MY<br> lifetime). The expressions (forms used) haven't much changed (except<br>
as noted below) but the USAGE (significance) HAS.<br><br> Take Nepali. Like most modern Indic language there is a word धन्यबाद<br>/dhanyabaad/ which is usually given as the translation of "thank you".<br> AND, if you listen to mall-attendants and 3-star restaurant<br>
waitpersonel usage (and also by clientelle of such establishments)<br> nowadays, you will get the impression that it is used EXACTLY as<br> (American) English "Thank you".<br><br> Note however,<br> 1) धन्यबाद is NOT Nepali, it is not an inherited Indic word going<br>
through the normal process of linguistic changes, it is a direct<br> borrowing from Sanskrit. I.e. it is a 'high-falootin'/high-culture<br> word. And using it "shows high culture" (whatever that is!)<br>
2) It's use even by service personel and clientelle is NEW. When I was<br> first in Nepal 35 years ago, one would NEVER have heard someone being<br> served a meal they ordered replying with धन्यबाद ! UNTHINKABLE!<br>
धन्यबाद was something I maybe might would have used if I owed my LIFE<br> to someone else (e.g. if I had lost my passport AND all my cash on the<br> road and a Nepali had picked it up and come running after<br> absent-minded me to RETURN it, THEN I would certainly have said<br>
धन्यबाद... and probab;ly fallen down, prostrating myself at to his<br> feet!!).<br> In the old days , IF ANYTHING was said, the exchange would have gone<br> something like this:<br> Wait person: लिनुस् /linus/ (take it)<br>
Me: ल /la/ (ok)<br><br> There is nothing LESS polite in this... it is just a different<br> culture... a culture less "contaminated" by Western ways.<br><br> AND in a way it is a cheapening... after all, if someone saves my life<br>
or if they serve me a coke, all I can do is give the SAME reply....<br><br>PS. Mumbai/Bombay NOTE<br> A similar development (evolution) has taken place in India also...<br> Though at least in Mumbai (and much of Urban india) there is STILL a<br>
risistance among educated to equate Indic धन्यवाद /dhanyavaad/ with<br> "thankyou... and so in Mumbai Marathi and Gujarati and Hindi, the<br> tendency is to use थेंक्स /thenks/ (aspirated /t/ NOT dental fricative<br>
/θ/<br><br>Note also that in Hindi there is the option of using Urdu /shukria/ for "thanks"<br><br> ALSO<br> as far as I can think, there is STILL no equivalent for please in<br> Nepali ... except the borrowed Hindi कृपाया /krpaya/<br>
we just use the appropriate verb form (imnperative, etc)... and cna<br> "soften" (or intensify it!) it if needed by the addition of a sentence<br> final partical (several options available)<br><br> my 8 anna's worth!<br>
<br> mwm || *U*C> || mike || माईक || мика || マイク (aka Dr Michael W Morgan)<br> sign language linguist / linguistic typologist<br> academic adviser, Nepal Sign Language Training and Research<br> NDFN, Kathmandu, Nepal</font></div>
<div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">----------</font></div>
<div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font></div><span style="text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px"><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif">
<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">From: </font><font color="#000000"><span name="Roger Thijs"><span name="Tom Mc Rae"><span name="Mike Morgan"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span name="Paul Finlow-Bates">Paul Finlow-Bates</span> </font><span><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>><br>
</font></span></span></span></span><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2013.07.18 (01) [EN]</font></font></div><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font> </div>
<div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><div><span><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">My nephew lives in Finland (his wife is Finnish) and their kids are completely bilingual. But they have to keep reminding the kids to say please and thank you when speaking English, as it's not an automatic response in Finnish.</font></span><span><br>
<font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></font></span></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><span><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Paul</font></span></div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><span><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Derby</font></span></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent">
<span><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">England</font></span></div></div><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><span style="text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px"><div>
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