<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>Marcel, no I was actually saying that the German word Pünte in the first post in this series was of Latin origin (whether direct or indirect)<br><br></div>"Path", etc is definitely NOT ... though COULD be, as you suggest, of Iranian origin (though I am slightly skeptical , but only on historical, as well as linguistic grounds... although the Goths definitely would have had dealings (linguistic and other) with the "Scythians" (Alans, Sarmatians, etc), they were almost certainly an intrusion in the Crimean area, and so this would not explain how the CORE of Germanic languages got these words. A lot depends on absolute chronology (while we linguists are pretty good at determining relative chronology, absolute chronology is a bit beyond our professional competence). And if we are talking about a relative late contact (such as when the various Iranic groups who accompanied the 5th century movement of peoples), then think (just based on my knowledge of Ossetian) that the initial *P- of Avestan would no longer have been such, but rather *f-<br><br></div>A lot of my skepticism is also based on ignorance... while Iranic borrowings in Slavic languages are well attested and (relative) numerous, is the same true for Iranic borrowings in Germanic? (if you have that info, please share).<br><br></div>(An alternative possibility -- though in my view much less likely -- is a Slavic origin. Historically this is not a problem: contact between the Slavs and Germans goes back a couple millenia at least; attested borrowing from Slavic into Germanic are also numerous (as too borrowings in the other direction). And depending on dialect, we have both Slavic dialects with nasal and without nasal in the word for "path" (on the western front, we have Polish with nasals to this day and Czech without nasals.)<br><div><div><br></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 1:55 AM, Lowlands Languages & Cultures <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Hi Marlou,<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I am sorry for the confusion! My reply was also an answer to Michael Morgan's message. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">There, if I am not mistaken, he proposes that our 'path word' may be of Latin origin, while acknowledging that this origin does not account for the loss of _n_ in Latin _pons_ acc.<span style="font-family:sans-serif"> pons, acc. _pontem_, etc. A Slavic origin would account for the it, but this in turn would yield some semantic problems. So I proposed the Eastern Iranian origin. </span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif">Best regards,</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif">Marcel.</span></div><div class="gmail_extra" dir="auto"><blockquote style="font-family:sans-serif"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><div class="m_-1890559110859621626elided-text"><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class="gmail_extra" dir="auto"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra" dir="auto"><br><div class="gmail_quote">Op 18 jul. 2017 9:04 p.m. schreef "Lowlands Languages & Cultures" <<a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lowlands-l@listserv.<wbr>linguistlist.org</a>>:<div><div class="h5"><br type="attribution"><blockquote class="m_-1890559110859621626quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font face="Calibri">"</font><font face="Calibri">This explains
the loss of the nasal." -- I'm sorry for being so ignorant, dear
Marcel, but where is a nasal in any of these words? I am just
trying to understand...</font></p>
<p><font face="Calibri">Hartlich</font></p>
<p><font face="Calibri">Marlou</font><br>
</p><div class="m_-1890559110859621626elided-text">
<br>
<div class="m_-1890559110859621626m_-5698071417444136870moz-cite-prefix">Am 18.07.2017 um 14:52 schrieb Lowlands
Languages & Cultures:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Good afternoon, all, Michael,</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Indeed, High German _Pfad_, Dutch _pad_, and
English _path_ did not enter these languages through the
normal *path*. According to my tutor Michael de Vaan it
entered the Germanic languages through an Eastern Iranian
language, and not through Latin. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">It must have entered the Germanic languages
after Grimm's Law turned PIE p- into f-, otherwise we would
have had English *fath and Dutch *vad. </div>
<div dir="auto">Cf. Old Avestan _patha_ 'way'. This explains the
loss of the nasal. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">The European plains have had visits from several
Eastern Iranian tribes such as the Sarmatians, who were
dwelling in the Pontic steppe through which they had access to
these plains. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Best regards, </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Marcel. </div>
<div dir="auto">
<div class="gmail_extra" dir="auto"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">Op 18 jul. 2017 8:11 a.m. schreef
"Lowlands Languages & Cultures" <<a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistl<wbr>ist.org</a>>:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="m_-1890559110859621626m_-5698071417444136870quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">to put it into wider-than-Germanic
perspective, the word is definitely Indo-European: cf
Russian путь, Old Church Slavoinc пѫть, Sanskrit पथः,
and English path, Anglo-Saxon <span class="m_-1890559110859621626m_-5698071417444136870m_8022441526601369271gmail-st">pæþ</span>,
Dutch pad, and German Pfad, all with basically the
same meaning path, way, course, route. Indo-European
would have been *panthis. And the common link with
Latin pons, acc. pontem, etc would indicate maybe an
even more basic meaning of the rood "how to get from
here to there"<br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
And, matching well with what Marcel said above about
(High) German words starting in *p, IE roots in *p-
do not normally give German words in in *p (ratehr,
like Pfad, they give words in *pf-), indicating
that, although common Indo-European, and with
Germanic cognates, the German*p words got into
German not by the normal path (excuse the pun) but
through borrowing (in this case no doubt from Latin,
though it could conceivably come form Low German...
though the nasal would tend to indicate Latin not
Low German. If the loan were very very early, then
Slavic might also conceivably be a source, but given
the sense of the word, this seems unlikely)<br>
<br>
<br>
Dr Michael W Morgan<br>
<div class="m_-1890559110859621626m_-5698071417444136870m_8022441526601369271gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>mwm || *U*C> || mike || माईक || માઈક ||
মাঈক || மாஈக || مایک ||мика || 戊流岸マイク <br>
sign language linguist / linguistic typologist
/ Deaf education consultant<br>
"Have language, will travel"<br>
==============================<wbr>=======<br>
"People who are always looking down at the
bottom line will always fail to see the stars"
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>Dr Michael W Morgan<br>mwm || *U*C> || mike || माईक || માઈક || মাঈক || மாஈக || مایک ||мика || 戊流岸マイク <br>sign language linguist / linguistic typologist / Deaf education consultant<br>"Have language, will travel"<br>=====================================<br>"People who are always looking down at the bottom line will always fail to see the stars" <br><br></div></div></div>
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