From mdmorris at indiana.edu Sun Aug 1 12:48:25 1999 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark Morris) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 06:48:25 -0600 Subject: Tlaxcala Colonial Records Pagina Ejemplar Message-ID: Nocniuhtzintzinhuan, In following-up on my inquiry about interest in digitized colonial documents, I've posted a sample of a scanned page. It is a big file; in fact, my browser opened it in QuickTime. It's web address is: http://php.indiana.edu/~mdmorris/apst.tif From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Mon Aug 2 18:20:46 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 12:20:46 -0600 Subject: AZ: Calpolli and exchange Message-ID: Greetings: "Ah, the old questions and the old answers...There's nothing like =E9m" ..Samuel Beckett Does any have any thoughts on calpolli, lineage? clan? etc. etc. and moreover what evidence do we have to make said arguement? I've read a bunch of Pedro Carrasco and Eliz. Brumfiel, and even some van Zantwyck (tho' none of this is handy as I'm travelling) and I seem to recall that there were calpollis with both commoner and noble lineages in them. Does anyone know any thing about exchange between calpoltin ? By exchange I mean sponsorship of festivals, gift-giving, commodity exchange, and of course marriage? Much obliged as always, Richard Haly From dfrye at umich.edu Mon Aug 2 19:09:24 1999 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 13:09:24 -0600 Subject: AZ: Calpolli and exchange Message-ID: To the side of this subject, is it true that the plural of calpolli (as an inanimate noun) is simply calpolli, not the often-sighted 'calpultin'? I'd appreciate a line from one of our experts. -David Frye (U-Michigan) On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Richard Haly wrote: > calpollis ... calpoltin ... From Ian.Robertson at asu.edu Mon Aug 2 20:37:42 1999 From: Ian.Robertson at asu.edu (Ian.Robertson at asu.edu) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 14:37:42 -0600 Subject: AZ: Calpolli and exchange Message-ID: Hello David, Although not one of the list's experts I think you are right; my understanding is that 'calpoltin' does exist as a word, but refers to individuals belonging to a calpolli, not to more than one calpolli. Cheers, Ian Ian G. Robertson Department of Anthropology Arizona State University Tempe, AZ 85287-2402 Ian.Robertson at asu.edu On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, David L. Frye wrote: > To the side of this subject, is it true that the plural of calpolli (as an > inanimate noun) is simply calpolli, not the often-sighted 'calpultin'? I'd > appreciate a line from one of our experts. > > -David Frye (U-Michigan) > > On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Richard Haly wrote: > > > calpollis ... calpoltin ... > > > From ted at teddanger.com Mon Aug 2 20:52:01 1999 From: ted at teddanger.com (Ted Danger) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 14:52:01 -0600 Subject: AZ: Calpolli and exchange Message-ID: Does Cal Poly have an anthro dept.? Ted Danger Ian.Robertson at asu.edu wrote: > Hello David, > > Although not one of the list's experts I think you are right; my understanding > is that 'calpoltin' does exist as a word, but refers to individuals belonging > to a calpolli, not to more than one calpolli. > > Cheers, Ian > > Ian G. Robertson > Department of Anthropology > Arizona State University > Tempe, AZ 85287-2402 > Ian.Robertson at asu.edu > > On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, David L. Frye wrote: > > > To the side of this subject, is it true that the plural of calpolli (as an > > inanimate noun) is simply calpolli, not the often-sighted 'calpultin'? I'd > > appreciate a line from one of our experts. > > > > -David Frye (U-Michigan) > > > > On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Richard Haly wrote: > > > > > calpollis ... calpoltin ... > > > > > > From henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de Tue Aug 3 08:57:05 1999 From: henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 02:57:05 -0600 Subject: AZ: Calpolli and exchange Message-ID: James Lockhart devotes a whole chapter of his "The Nahuas After the Conquest" to the calpolli, using a variety of interesting sources. I am also under the assumption that calpoltin is the plural of the inhabitants of the calpolli, while the term for the social unit does not have a plural form. BTW the /o/ is long, I think. Henry > Does any have any thoughts on calpolli, lineage? clan? etc. etc. and > moreover what evidence do we have to make said arguement? [Snip] From henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de Tue Aug 3 12:19:37 1999 From: henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 06:19:37 -0600 Subject: Tlaxcala Colonial Records Pagina Ejemplar Message-ID: Hi, Mark > In following-up on my inquiry about interest in digitized colonial > documents, I've posted a sample of a scanned page. It is a big file; in > fact, my browser opened it in QuickTime. It's web address is: > http://php.indiana.edu/~mdmorris/apst.tif Why not compress it into a gif or jpg - File? It will be viewable in a browser and faster to download (gif is better for b/w, jpeg better for half-tones) Cheers, Henry From melesan at pacbell.net Sat Aug 7 04:55:59 1999 From: melesan at pacbell.net (Mel Sanchez) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:55:59 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: Some list members expressed an interest in an article of some 15 misconceptions about the Aztecs. It can be found in the journal Wicazo Sa Review, Spring 1995, Volume XI, No. 1 by Associate Professor at the Univ of Texas, Austin, Dr. Arnold Carlos Vento. The title of the article is Aztec Myths and Cosmology: Historical Religious Misinterpretations. The 15 misinterpretations, according to the article include: 1) polytheism among native cultures, 2) the concept of Hell, Mikltan, 3) fatalism 4) native belief of the Spanish as Gods, 5) Ketzalkoatl as a Messiah, 6) imperialism 7)slavery, 8) chiomoztok as the seven cities of gold or Aztlan, 9) cannibalism, 10) human sacrifice by bloodthirsty priests, 11)drunkenness, 12) myth of the debased woman, 13) myth of Aztlan in the US, 14) European etymology of the word America, and 15 ) Nahuatl as a name for the national language or culture. Any discussion and enlightenment for me on behalf of any scholars generally, or specifically, after reading the article, would be appreciated by me. Since UT, Austin has such a high reputation in Mesoamerican studies, I feel it would be strange for them to hire somebody with totally strange ideas. But I'm no great scholar. Thanks, Mel Sanchez From nahualli at highfiber.com Sat Aug 7 14:04:20 1999 From: nahualli at highfiber.com (Brant Gardner) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 08:04:20 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: [Mel] Some list members expressed an interest in an article of some 15 misconceptions about the Aztecs. It can be found in the journal Wicazo Sa Review, Spring 1995, Volume XI, No. 1 by Associate Professor at the Univ of Texas, Austin, Dr. Arnold Carlos Vento. The title of the article is Aztec Myths and Cosmology: Historical Religious Misinterpretations. The 15 misinterpretations, according to the article include: 1) polytheism among native cultures, 2) the concept of Hell, Mikltan, 3) fatalism 4) native belief of the Spanish as Gods, 5) Ketzalkoatl as a Messiah, 6) imperialism 7)slavery, 8) chiomoztok as the seven cities of gold or Aztlan, 9) cannibalism, 10) human sacrifice by bloodthirsty priests, 11)drunkenness, 12) myth of the debased woman, 13) myth of Aztlan in the US, 14) European etymology of the word America, and 15 ) Nahuatl as a name for the national language or culture. Any discussion and enlightenment for me on behalf of any scholars generally, or specifically, after reading the article, would be appreciated by me. [Brant] Of course it doesn't do justice to an article to respond to titles only, but since I haven't read the original, that is all I can go on. On some of these I have no information because I haven't done much work on the topics, but what I understand I will share: 1) polytheism among native cultures, I am not at all sure why this would be listed as a historical misinterpretation. I can only guess that the author must be defending some type of monotheism on the basis of Nezahualcoyotl's prime god. Polytheism is a system of belief in more than one god, and it is difficult to imagine that the many named deities could be easily dismissed. To my knowledge, there is no known pre-contact culture that did not have multiple deities. In Tenochtitlan mythology there is the same evidence for stories moving across named deities that is also seen in ancient Greece - which was also polytheistic. Nezahualcoyotl's "theology" has the markings of a late codifying/regularizing of mythology, something enabled by the nature of the city states. 2) the concept of Hell, Mikltan, I would agree that equating Mictlan with the Christian Hell is an oversimplification, and leads to misconceptions. 4) native belief of the Spanish as Gods, This depends upon the definition of "gods." The Florentine Codex uses "teotl" as a description of the Spaniards. The blacks with them were "teucacatzactic" which I understand to be black gods or dirty gods - with reference to their dark skin. The Nahua word we translate as god is "teotl," but that doesn't mean that there is a direct semantic correspondence between the two ideas. So it may be true that the natives did not worship the Spaniards, but the best evidence suggests that "teotl" was applied to them. I can't speak to the Maya perceptions. 5) Ketzalkoatl as a Messiah, I have spent years tracing this one down, and the Quetzalcoatl/Messiah correlation is entirely dependent upon post-conquest Spanish (and later others) misinterpretations of the native myths. 9) cannibalism, I suppose there is sensationalist cannibalism, where humans are used as dietary supplements. In that sense I don't think it existed. However, there is anthropologically understood cannibalism, which is part of a sacred rite (as opposed to lunch!). That did exist. I would be surprised if anyone were to seriously deny that this type of cannibalism existed. 10) human sacrifice by bloodthirsty priests, This one is kind of telling by the modifier. Human sacrifice, yes. Bloodthirsty priests? We are stuck on definitions again. They were operating completely within their religious system. It is impossible to reliably deny that there were sacrifices. That they were the result of a degenerate society is certainly deniable. 11)drunkenness, I am not sure what this one refers to, but the very strong penalties for drunkenness suggest that it was a known problem, and one sufficiently severe to warrant severe penalties. One may presume that the penalties prevent the breach, but it never seems to be so. Laws come after the fact, in an attempt to control problems. Therefore, I would say that drunkenness must have been a problem, albeit one they were attempting to control. I have no comments on the others. ______________________ Brant Gardner Albuquerque, NM nahualli at highfiber.com www.highfiber.com\~nahualli From jcarlson at deans.umd.edu Sat Aug 7 16:46:28 1999 From: jcarlson at deans.umd.edu (John B. Carlson) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 10:46:28 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: Dear Mel Sanchez, You wrote to the group: Some list members expressed an interest in an article of some 15 misconceptions about the Aztecs. It can be found in the journal Wicazo Sa Review, Spring 1995, Volume XI, No. 1 by Associate Professor at the Univ of Texas, Austin, Dr. Arnold Carlos Vento. The title of the article is Aztec Myths and Cosmology: Historical Religious Misinterpretations.... Since UT, Austin has such a high reputation in Mesoamerican studies, I feel it would be strange for them to hire somebody with totally strange ideas. But I'm no great scholar. ********* There are two real misconceptions in your last paragraph. First, academia is just full of individuals with strange ideas, and Second, you might be a better scholar that this guy. That remains to be seen. The topic (paper) sounds to me like a polemic, but we would all have to read it before we could comment. I would be interested to see a copy. John Carlson From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Aug 7 18:09:28 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 12:09:28 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, Brant Gardner wrote: > [Mel] > Some list members expressed an interest in an article of some 15 > misconceptions about the Aztecs. It can be found in the journal Wicazo > Sa Review, Spring 1995, Volume XI, No. 1 by Associate Professor at the > Univ of Texas, Austin, Dr. Arnold Carlos Vento. The title of the > article is Aztec Myths and Cosmology: Historical Religious > Misinterpretations. The 15 misinterpretations, according to the article > include: 1) polytheism among native cultures, 2) the concept of Hell, > Mikltan, 3) fatalism 4) native belief of the Spanish as Gods, 5) > Ketzalkoatl as a Messiah, 6) imperialism 7)slavery, 8) chiomoztok as the > seven cities of gold or Aztlan, 9) cannibalism, 10) human sacrifice by > bloodthirsty priests, 11)drunkenness, 12) myth of the debased woman, 13) > myth of Aztlan in the US, 14) European etymology of the word America, > and 15 ) Nahuatl as a name for the national language or culture. > > Any discussion and enlightenment for me on behalf of any scholars > generally, or specifically, after reading the article, would be > appreciated by me. > > [Brant] > Of course it doesn't do justice to an article to respond to titles only, but > since I haven't read the original, that is all I can go on. On some of these > I have no information because I haven't done much work on the topics, but > what I understand I will share: Michael: I looked for the review but couldn't find it here. > > 1) polytheism among native cultures, > > I am not at all sure why this would be listed as a historical > misinterpretation. I can only guess that the author must be defending some > type of monotheism on the basis of Nezahualcoyotl's prime god. Polytheism is > a system of belief in more than one god, and it is difficult to imagine that > the many named deities could be easily dismissed. To my knowledge, there is > no known pre-contact culture that did not have multiple deities. > > In Tenochtitlan mythology there is the same evidence for stories moving > across named deities that is also seen in ancient Greece - which was also > polytheistic. Nezahualcoyotl's "theology" has the markings of a late > codifying/regularizing of mythology, something enabled by the nature of the > city states. > Michael: But not finding the article doesn't stop me from making some generalizations. It sounds to me like the author is doing some heavy-duty revisionism, using a fundamentalist Christian mindset. As far as humans go, monotheism is a rather rare bird. Polytheism is the main course. James Hillman has a wonderful exposition of polytheism in his _Revisioning Psychology_. A very worthy read. > 2) the concept of Hell, Mikltan, > > I would agree that equating Mictlan with the Christian Hell is an > oversimplification, and leads to misconceptions. Michael: I agree absolutely. On the other hand, I once translated a description of Mictlan for Brant and found that I would certainly prefer Hawaii to Mictlan. > 4) native belief of the Spanish as Gods, > > This depends upon the definition of "gods." The Florentine Codex uses > "teotl" as a description of the Spaniards. The blacks with them were > "teucacatzactic" which I understand to be black gods or dirty gods - with > reference to their dark skin. > > The Nahua word we translate as god is "teotl," but that doesn't mean that > there is a direct semantic correspondence between the two ideas. Michael: Good point. Christianity tends to simplify the entire religious experience, and avoids many aspects to the big picture. > 5) Ketzalkoatl as a Messiah, > > I have spent years tracing this one down, and the Quetzalcoatl/Messiah > correlation is entirely dependent upon post-conquest Spanish (and later > others) misinterpretations of the native myths. Michael: shore nuff. > > 9) cannibalism, > > I suppose there is sensationalist cannibalism, where humans are used as > dietary supplements. In that sense I don't think it existed. However, there > is anthropologically understood cannibalism, which is part of a sacred rite > (as opposed to lunch!). That did exist. I would be surprised if anyone were > to seriously deny that this type of cannibalism existed. > Michael: Well, they tried...even here on this list. Bless their hearts. > 10) human sacrifice by bloodthirsty priests, > > This one is kind of telling by the modifier. Human sacrifice, yes. > Bloodthirsty priests? We are stuck on definitions again. They were operating > completely within their religious system. It is impossible to reliably deny > that there were sacrifices. That they were the result of a degenerate > society is certainly deniable. Michael: Excellent point! > I have no comments on the others. Michael: I have plenty, but I'll spare y'all. Michael McCafferty C.E.L.T. 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu From melesan at pacbell.net Sat Aug 7 23:13:24 1999 From: melesan at pacbell.net (Mel Sanchez) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 17:13:24 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: Nice to see some response to my query on the Vento article. First of all, I don't consider myself more scholarly than Dr. Vento; I am a mere high school teacher, teaching every day with little time for hard core research; and, I don't feel that all college profs are people with strange ideas. I just think that Dr. Vento has some ideas that are way off the beaten path of what I've read from other profs. Still, I'm not ready to dismiss what he has to say because I don't know and would like some imput from some other scholars. Secondly, I don't know if this journal is still in publication so I'd like to take maybe one portion at a time and see what you scholars have to say about each point. If discussion is encouraging and interest doesn't wane, we can continue til all points are discussed. Here's his basic premise: "they(Spaniards) saw the provincial West producing a kind of particularism, a fondness for the physical manifestations of the divinity, a desire to draw near the object of worhsip and possess it. thus Western piety was less transcendental, more familiar, materialistic, seeing the human nature of Christianity instead of the divine." He later states: "When they saw monumental works of sculpture with images that were incomprehensible to them, they quickly projected their own view of reality and levied accusations of polytheism, formerly levied at them by Jews and Moslems, on a world they could not understand." Particlularly about polytheism he asserts: ". . .the cosmogony of (mesoamericans) is seen through science, i.e., astronomy and mathematics. thus , they did not have a religion as we know religion today., i.e., with dogmatic theology." Their view "is more similar to ancient Eastern cultures. ...autochthonous holy men known by the Spanish as pagan priests were, in fact, astronomers and sages, who were able to read the esoteric and abstract symbolism of the writings of codices and sculptured images." much later he writes: "They understood the planetary cycles, the interrelationships between animals, plants and human ecologically balanced in cyclical pattern nurtured by the enery of the One Supreme Force of Zenteotol. Thus, to refer to mutiple gods is to project a medieval Western Christian perception of reality as seen through the worship of hundreds of saints, virgins and trinities." Any comments on this point of Dr. Vento? The next point would be Miktlan as Hell. TAke care all, Mel From CCBtlevine at aol.com Sat Aug 7 23:28:17 1999 From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 17:28:17 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: In a message dated 8/7/99 9:05:00 AM EST, nahualli at highfiber.com writes: << 4) native belief of the Spanish as Gods, This depends upon the definition of "gods." The Florentine Codex uses "teotl" as a description of the Spaniards. The blacks with them were "teucacatzactic" which I understand to be black gods or dirty gods - with reference to their dark skin. >> Simeon's dictionary shows cacatzac an adjective meaning black, not dirty. It shows cacatzactli for a black person. I am not certain of the root. But, it may come from cacahuatl, meaning cacao. I can't find anything that would indicate, in Nahuatl, that the root has anything to do with dirt. Do you know of anything? In other words, they, the black spaniards, would seem to be the chocolate colored gods rather than the dirty gods. Perhaps another myth should be destroyed. From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 8 04:54:35 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 22:54:35 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: >>From this little bit I get the sense that there is some PC/New Age revisionism going on here based on a lack of understanding of Nahuatl. Zenteotl is doubtfully from Cen "whole, all" but from Centli/cintli, maize. Richard Haly ---------- >From: Mel Sanchez >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: article on Aztecs >Date: Sat, Aug 07, 1999, 17:14 > > "They understood the planetary cycles, the interrelationships between > animals, plants and human ecologically balanced in cyclical pattern > nurtured by the enery of the One Supreme Force of Zenteotol. Thus, to > refer to mutiple gods is to project a medieval Western Christian > perception of reality as seen through the worship of hundreds of saints, > virgins and trinities." From CCBtlevine at aol.com Sun Aug 8 05:43:56 1999 From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:43:56 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: In a message dated 8/7/99 11:55:17 PM EST, rhaly at ix.netcom.com writes: << From this little bit I get the sense that there is some PC/New Age revisionism going on here based on a lack of understanding of Nahuatl. Zenteotl is doubtfully from Cen "whole, all" but from Centli/cintli, maize. Richard Haly >> There is Centeotl, Ometeotl, yehecatl, naollin, macuilteotl. I wonder if there is some sort of a pattern here? I wonder if there is support for the belief that centeotl comes from centli except for the similarity of names. From campbel at indiana.edu Sun Aug 8 05:59:00 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:59:00 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 1999 CCBtlevine at aol.com wrote: There's no myth to be destroyed on the semantics of "catzahuac" and related words. The verb stem is "catza:hua" and a perusal of the related words indicates that the color of 'dark' or 'black' (for anything) was intermingled with 'to get dirty'. It's not clear that the Nahuatl speakers made any value judgment about the relationship, but they *did* recognize that something that gets dirty looks more black than white. Molina (from whom Simeon benefited to a high degree), was an on-the-spot observer and participator in using the language, so I have included his citations at the end of this message. On the relationship of "cacatzac" and "cacahuatl", since "cacatzac" is a reduplicated form of "catzahua", all they share is "ca". Well, crows ("ca:ca:lo:tl") are black and there is no likely derivation there either. Seriously, we can't throw away pieces of words that "no nos convienen" and relate form and meaning in a way that doesn't take into account the 'building blocks' of the language and their variations. In other words, we need to look at a larger piece of the spiderweb of Nahuatl. > Simeon's dictionary shows cacatzac an adjective meaning black, not dirty. It > shows cacatzactli for a black person. I am not certain of the root. But, it > may come from cacahuatl, meaning cacao. I can't find anything that would > indicate, in Nahuatl, that the root has anything to do with dirt. Do you > know of anything? In other words, they, the black spaniards, would seem to > be the chocolate colored gods rather than the dirty gods. Perhaps another > myth should be destroyed. > Best regards, Joe p.s. the first form is a regularized spelling and the {{...}} form is Molina's literal spelling. M5 = 1555 edition M1 = 1571 (Spanish/Mexicano) M2 = 1571 (Mexicano/Spanish) The following numbers refer to location by folio. acatzahualiztli. {{acatzaualiztli}} limpieza. 55m-156r-12 acatzahualiztli. {{acatzaualiztli}} limpieza. 71m1-78-14 cacatzac. {{cacatzac}} negro de guinea. 55m-180r-14 cacatzac. {{cacatzac}} negro de guinea. 71m1-89-16 cacatzac. {{cacatzac}} hombre negro, o negra. 71m2-10-4-06-2 cacatzactli. {{cacatzactli}} hombre negro, o negra. 71m2-10-4-07-2 catzactia (ni). {{catzactia =ni}} ensuziarse. 55m-106r-8 catzactia (ni). {{catzactia =ni}} ensuziarse. 71m1-55-10 catzactia (ni). {{catzactia =ni=onicatzactiac. vel. onicatzactix}} pararse suzio. 71m2-12-3-42-2 catzactic. {{catzactic}} hosco bazo en color. 55m-142v-11 catzactic. {{catzactic}} morena cosa baza. 55m-176r-14 catzactic. {{catzactic}} suzia cosa. 55m-197v-19 catzactic. {{catzactic}} suzio por no estar lauado. 55m-197v-19 catzactic. {{catzactic}} hosco bazo en color. 71m1-72-13 catzactic. {{catzactic}} morena cosa baza. 71m1-87-15 catzactic. {{catzactic}} suzia cosa. 71m1-111-20 catzactic. {{catzactic}} suzio por no estar lauado. 71m1-100-20 catzactic. {{catzactic}} cosa suzia. 71m2-12-3-43-2 catzactilia (nitla). {{catzactilia =nitla}} ensuziar algo. 55m-106r-8 catzactilia (nitla). {{catzactilia =nitla}} ensuziar algo. 71m1-55-10 catzactilia (nitla). {{catzactilia =nitla=onitlacatzactili}} ensuziar algo. 71m2-12-3-44-2 catzactililli (tla-invert.2). {{tlacatzactililli}} ensuziada cosa. 55m-106r-8 catzactililli (tla-invert.2). {{tlacatzactililli}} ensuziada cosa. 71m1-55-10 catzactiliztil. {{catzactiliztil}} suziedad. 55m-197v-19 catzactiliztli. {{catzactiliztli}} suziedad. 71m1-111-20 catzactiliztli. {{catzactiliztli}} suziedad. 71m2-12-4-01-2 catzahua (ni). {{catzaua =ni}} ensuziarse. 55m-106r-8 catzahua (ni). {{catzaua =ni}} ensuziarse. 71m1-55-10 catzahua (nino). {{catzaua =nino=oninocatzauh}} ensuziarse. 71m2-12-4-03-2 catzahua (ni). {{catzaua =ni=onicatzauac. vel. onicatzauh}} pararse suzio. 71m2-12-4-02-2 catzahua (nite). {{catzaua =nite=onitecatzauh}} ensuziar a otro. 71m2-12-4-04-2 catzahua (nitla). {{catzaua =nitla}} ensuziar algo. 55m-106r-8 catzahua (nitla). {{catzaua =nitla}} estragar. 55m-119v-9 catzahua (nitla). {{catzaua =nitla}} ensuziar algo. 71m1-55-10 catzahua (nitla). {{catzaua =nitla}} estragar. 71m1-61-11 catzahua (nitla). {{busca estragar}} percudir. 71m1-95-17 catzahuac. {{catzauac}} suzia cosa. 55m-197v-19 catzahuac. {{catzauac}} suzio por no estar lauado. 55m-197v-19 catzahuac. {{catzauac}} suzia cosa. 71m1-111-20 catzahuac. {{catzauac}} suzio por no estar lauado. 71m1-100-20 catzahuac. {{catzauac}} cosa suzia. 71m2-12-4-05-2 catzahuac (amo -invert.2). {{amocatzauac}} limpia cosa. 71m1-78-14 catzahuac (amo-invert.2). {{amo catzauac}} limpia cosa. 55m-156r-12 catzahualiztli. {{catzaualiztli}} estrago. 55m-119v-9 catzahualiztli. {{catzaualiztli}} suziedad. 55m-197v-19 catzahualiztli. {{catzaualiztli}} estrago. 71m1-61-11 catzahualiztli. {{catzaualiztli}} suziedad. 71m1-111-20 catzahualiztli. {{catzaualiztli}} suziedad. 71m2-12-4-06-2 catzahualli (tla-invert.2). {{tlacatzaualli}} ensuziada cosa. 71m1-55-10 catzahuani (tla-invert.2). {{tlacatzauani}} estragador. 55m-119v-9 catzahuani (tla-invert.2). {{tlacatzauani}} ensuziador. 71m1-55-10 catzahuani (tla-invert.2). {{tlacatzauani}} estragador. 71m1-61-11 catzauh (te-invert.2). {{tecatzauh}} cosa que ensuzia. 55m-056v-4 catzauh (te-invert.2). {{tecatzauh}} cosa que ensuzia. 71m1-31-6 catzauh (te-invert.2). {{tecatzauh}} cosa que ensuzia a otro. 71m2-092-1-21-16 catzauhtli (tla-invert.2). {{tlacatzauhtli}} ensuziada cosa. 55m-106r-8 catzauhtli (tla-invert.2). {{tlacatzauhtli}} ensuziada cosa. 71m1-55-10 catzauhtli (tla-invert.2). {{tlacatzauhtli}} estragado. 71m1-61-11 ixcatzahuac (n). {{ixcatzauac =n=onixcatzauac}} tener suzia la cara, o la haz. 71m2-44-4-21-8 toacatzauhtli. {{toacatzauhtli}} estragado. 55m-119v-9 From campbel at indiana.edu Sun Aug 8 06:15:09 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 00:15:09 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: Part of what Richard was basing his claim on (other than knowledge of the culture) -- just the mechanics of the language -- is that "cem/cen" 'whole, all' never alternates with "cim/cin", but "centli/cintli" 'maize' is fairly common. Sahagun's material given at the end of this message should leave no doubt. Best regards, Joe On Sat, 7 Aug 1999 CCBtlevine at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/7/99 11:55:17 PM EST, rhaly at ix.netcom.com writes: > > << From this little bit I get the sense that there is some PC/New Age > revisionism going on here based on a lack of understanding of Nahuatl. > Zenteotl is doubtfully from Cen "whole, all" but from Centli/cintli, maize. > > Richard Haly >> > > There is Centeotl, Ometeotl, yehecatl, naollin, macuilteotl. I wonder if > there is some sort of a pattern here? I wonder if there is support for the > belief that centeotl comes from centli except for the similarity of names. > centeotl** 1. otlacatqui *centeotl*, atliayahuican. cinteotl was born in the rain-mist (b.2 f.14 p.238). 2. yecoc, *centeotl*. cinteotl has arrived (b.2 f.14 p.239). cicinteo** 3. auh in icuac i, motenehua calonohuac, cali onohuac: yehica ca zan cali zan techachan in mahuiztililoya *cicinteo*.. and when this was done, it was called calonoac, "there hath been resting in the houses," because it was only in the houses, only in each person's house, that honors were paid the maize gods. (b.2 f.2 p.62). cinteoanazque** 4. niman ic ompehua, in inmilpan, *cinteoanazque*,. then they departed to their fields, to get cinteotl. (b.2 f.2 p.62). cinteococopi** 5. mitoaya *cinteococopi*,. it used to be called cinteococopi. (b.11 f.27 p.282). cinteootl** 6. in iztac *cinteootl* iteopan: oncan miquia in mamalti, zan yehuantin in xixiyoti:. the temple of the white cinteotl: there captives died, only those with skin sores. (b.2 f.11 p.184). 7. in cinteopan: oncan icaca, oncan pialoya in ixiptla *cinteootl*:. the temple of cinteotl: there stood, there was guarded the image of cinteotl. (b.2 f.12 p.187). 8. oncan miquia in ixiptla *cinteootl*, cemilhuitl.. there the impersonator of cinteotl died, by day. (b.2 f.12 p.187). 9. in xochicalco, oncan miquia in iztac *cinteootl*, ihuan tlatlauhqui cinteootl, ihuan no yehuatl in atla tonan.. xochicalco: there died [the impersonators of] white cinteotl and red cinteotl, and also that one [impersonating the goddess] atlatonan. (b.2 f.12 p.191). 10. in xochicalco, oncan miquia in iztac cinteootl, ihuan tlatlauhqui *cinteootl*, ihuan no yehuatl in atla tonan.. xochicalco: there died [the impersonators of] white cinteotl and red cinteotl, and also that one [impersonating the goddess] atlatonan. (b.2 f.12 p.191). cinteopan** 11. auh in ye teotlac, ompa quimoncacahua, *cinteopan* in iteopan chicome coatl:. and after sundown they left each of [the foods] there at cinteopan, the temple of chicome coatl. (b.2 f.2 p.62). 12. auh no ihuan, in cintli, xinachtli yez: ompa conitquia, *cinteopan*, in iteopan chicome coatl,. and furthermore, they bore to cinteopan, the temple of chicome coatl, the maize which was to be seed. (b.2 f.2 p.63). 13. auh ye ic contlecahuia in *cinteopan*,. and thereupon they took her up to the temple of cinteotl. (b.2 f.5 p.105). 14. *cinteopan*.. the temple of cinteotl (b.2 f.12 p.186). 15. in *cinteopan*: oncan miquia in ixiptla chicome coatl, cihuatl, zan yohualtica:. the temple of cinteotl: there the impersonator of chicome coatl died, at night only. (b.2 f.12 p.186). 16. *cinteopan*.. the temple of cinteotl (b.2 f.12 p.187). 17. in *cinteopan*: oncan icaca, oncan pialoya in ixiptla cinteootl:. the temple of cinteotl: there stood, there was guarded the image of cinteotl. (b.2 f.12 p.187). cinteotl** 18. auh cem ixtli quitequi acatl oncan quitemitia, quitentiquetza, in izquitlamantli, ixpan onoc *cinteotl*:. and they cut a section of reed; there they filled it, they crammed it with everything [which] lay before cinteotl. (b.2 f.2 p.62). 19. niman ye ic quinhuica in ichpopochti, quimamatihui in cintli, no *cinteotl* motocayotiaya:. thereupon they accompanied the young girls as they carried on their backs the dried maize, also called cinteotl. (b.2 f.2 p.63). 20. itoca, *cinteotl*,. his name was cinteotl. (b.2 f.7 p.120). 21. conixnamictimoquetza, mec hualmocuepa, itlan hualmoquetza in iconeuh in *cinteotl*:. she placed herself facing [the god]; then she turned about; she placed herself by her son, cinteotl. (b.2 f.7 p.121). 22. mec yauh in ompa ocanato iconeuh: quihuicatiuh in iconeuh, in *cinteotl* ano itztlacoliuhqui:. then she went where [earlier] she had gone to get her son; she went to bring her son, cinteotl or itztlacoliuhqui. (b.2 f.7 p.122). 23. iztac *cinteotl* iteopan.. the temple of the white cinteotl (b.2 f.11 p.184). 24. ahzoc achi quimotquitiz, quipalehuiz in chicome cohuatl, in *cinteotl*:. perhaps chicome coatl, cinteotl will yet have then carry a little, will help them. (b.6 f.3 p.38). 25. inic nahui itoca *cinteotl*.. the name of the fourth was cinteotl. (b.9 f.6 p.79). 26. auh in *cinteotl*, no toquichtin in ipan mixehuaya ixiuhxayac, ihuan ixiuhtlanex, ihuan iayauhxicol texotli, iuhquin tlalpilli, ihuan iecacozqui:. and also cinteotl was represented as a man, with his turquoise [mosaic] mask and his turquoise rays, and his mist jacket of [light] blue, as if netted, and his wind jewel necklace. (b.9 f.6 p.80). cinteotla** 27. quinanquilia *cinteotla*,. making replies to the corn god (b.2 f.14 p.231). 28. yoaltica tlao *cinteotla*.. by night did the god of corn shine (b.2 f.14 p.231). 29. quinanquilican *cinteotla*.. answer the maize god (b.2 f.14 p.244). cinteotzin** 30. *cinteotzin*.. [the priest of] cinteotl (b.2 f.13 p.208). 31. in itequiuh catca *cinteotzin* zan ixquich in ipan tlatoaya, ic tlanahuatiaya, inic monechicoaya in amatl in copalli, in olli in iyauhtli in itech monequia xilonen in ihcuac ilhuiuh quizaya,. the function of [the priest of] cinteotl was that he directed indeed everything; he commanded that the paper, the incense, the [liquid] rubber, the yiauhtli which he needed for [the goddess] xilonen when her feast day came, be gathered together. (b.2 f.13 p.208). incinteohuan** 32. quinxoxochiotia in *incinteohuan*, in cacalpolco quiquetza:. they decked their maize gods with flowers; they set them up in each calpulco. (b.2 f.2 p.62). nicinteotla** 33. za *nicinteotla*. only the corn god am i (b.2 f.14 p.231). From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 8 16:40:25 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 10:40:25 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs II Message-ID: Part of the problem here re: multiple gods vs One Supreme god is the issue of what a "god" is and without going into it very much here I can confidently state that what gods are has to do in Mesoamerica with what _places_ are and the human interactions with those places which always include relations of power. Likewise, I'm sure that Spaniards did get Aztec ideas of divinity wrong, just as other researchers have since. While certain names, eg. yohualli ehecatl or necoc yaotl or telpochtli may all refer to Tezcatlipoca (of which there were by some accounts four) this doesn't mean that one can ignore the context in which such titles might be used. That is to say it is not appropriate to call a deity by any name at any time. The context in which Tez may be called one or the other is a question of time and place. Where we go wrong is in our misguided attempt to phenomenologically describe some system of Aztec theology apart from practice. Richard Haly P.S. I've explored some of these issues in an analysis of what I argue is a fictive "ometeotl" in an article "Bare Bones: Re-thinking Mesoamerican Divinity" in the journal History of Religions February 1992. ---------- >From: CCBtlevine at aol.com >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: article on Aztecs >Date: Sat, Aug 07, 1999, 23:44 > > There is Centeotl, Ometeotl, yehecatl, naollin, macuilteotl. I wonder if > there is some sort of a pattern here? I wonder if there is support for the > belief that centeotl comes from centli except for the similarity of names. From melesan at pacbell.net Mon Aug 9 02:39:13 1999 From: melesan at pacbell.net (Mel Sanchez) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 20:39:13 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs II Message-ID: Found this on the internet--the publication and listing of Dr. Vento's article, but not the article: http://www.upress.umn.edu/journals/wsr/issues/11-1.html Mel From melesan at pacbell.net Mon Aug 9 03:06:23 1999 From: melesan at pacbell.net (Mel Sanchez) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 21:06:23 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs II Message-ID: Take a look at this from amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/book-contents/0761809201/qid=934166 480/sr=1-17/002-5080852-7218268 From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Mon Aug 9 04:45:15 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 22:45:15 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs II Message-ID: Ouch. There is an issue here that troubles me. Having taught Chicano Studies I am quite aware of the forces of Cultural Nationalism and "lo indio" what I see here troubles me in thusly: say you were going to write a book about the French Revolution. To do any kind of decent job - even only archival and not actually interviewing people re liberte egalite fraternite - one would have to learn French. Duh. How is it people think they can write about a culture when they don't know the language. And why is it usually indigenous languages (ie. non european ones) where this happens. The spelling of Moteuczomah as Moktekuzoma is (as J. Richard Andrews can teach us) a flag that this person doesn't know Nahuatl. This kind of PC appropriation (Chicano of Nahua) is one of the things that I (Ph.D in hand) hate about academia. First the reconquista and now the reteconquista. There are serious ethical issues of representation that such a book brings up. I, who have done over 25 years of "fieldwork" with Nahuas and speak it passably (understand it better) will only claim in my writings that what I write is a product of my _interaction_ with Nahua speakers. I am NOT PostModern enough to admit such readings of the sources as Vento apparently feels entitled to. ye ixquich. Richard Haly ---------- >From: Mel Sanchez >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: article on Aztecs II >Date: Sun, Aug 08, 1999, 21:07 > > Take a look at this from amazon.com: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/book-contents/0761809201/qid=934166 > 480/sr=1-17/002-5080852-7218268 From micc at home.com Mon Aug 9 04:59:03 1999 From: micc at home.com (micc) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 22:59:03 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs II Message-ID: Richard Haly wrote: > > Ouch.... > > languages (ie. non european ones) where this happens. The spelling of > Moteuczomah as Moktekuzoma is (as J. Richard Andrews can teach us) a flag > that this person doesn't know Nahuatl. why do you say that Moktekuzoma is incorrect and moteuczomah is correct? the problem arises with the othrographic representation of the Kw sound in Tekwtli. originally it was written by the spanish as tecutli, teuctli and teoctli, by several sources. But we know that the word has a kw sound and not a -cu sound nor a -euc sound. Like in xipe Totekw (Xipe totec) Hmmm.... This kind of PC appropriation > (Chicano of Nahua) is one of the things that I (Ph.D in hand) hate about > academia. First the reconquista and now the reteconquista. > > There are serious ethical issues of representation that such a book brings > up. I, who have done over 25 years of "fieldwork" with Nahuas and speak it > passably (understand it better) will only claim in my writings that what I > write is > a product of my _interaction_ with Nahua speakers. I am NOT PostModern > enough to admit such readings of the sources as Vento apparently feels > entitled to. > > ye ixquich. > > Richard Haly > > ---------- > >From: Mel Sanchez > >To: Multiple recipients of list > >Subject: Re: article on Aztecs II > >Date: Sun, Aug 08, 1999, 21:07 > > > > > Take a look at this from amazon.com: > > > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/book-contents/0761809201/qid=934166 > > 480/sr=1-17/002-5080852-7218268 From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Aug 9 11:04:11 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 05:04:11 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs II Message-ID: Well, micc, I don't think the unit phoneme that you discuss is the problem here. The thing that first struck me, like a huge fist, was the overbearing Germanic -k- in the first syllable. Mok-???????? Pow! On Sun, 8 Aug 1999, micc wrote: > > > Richard Haly wrote: > > > > Ouch.... > > > > languages (ie. non european ones) where this happens. The spelling of > > Moteuczomah as Moktekuzoma is (as J. Richard Andrews can teach us) a flag > > that this person doesn't know Nahuatl. > > > why do you say that Moktekuzoma is incorrect and moteuczomah is correct? > > the problem arises with the othrographic representation of the Kw sound > in Tekwtli. originally it was written by the spanish as > tecutli, teuctli and teoctli, by several sources. > > But we know that the word has a kw sound and not a -cu sound nor a -euc > sound. > Like in xipe Totekw (Xipe totec) > > Hmmm.... > > > > > This kind of PC appropriation > > (Chicano of Nahua) is one of the things that I (Ph.D in hand) hate about > > academia. First the reconquista and now the reteconquista. > > > > There are serious ethical issues of representation that such a book brings > > up. I, who have done over 25 years of "fieldwork" with Nahuas and speak it > > passably (understand it better) will only claim in my writings that what I > > write is > > a product of my _interaction_ with Nahua speakers. I am NOT PostModern > > enough to admit such readings of the sources as Vento apparently feels > > entitled to. > > > > ye ixquich. > > > > Richard Haly > > > > ---------- > > >From: Mel Sanchez > > >To: Multiple recipients of list > > >Subject: Re: article on Aztecs II > > >Date: Sun, Aug 08, 1999, 21:07 > > > > > > > > Take a look at this from amazon.com: > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/book-contents/0761809201/qid=934166 > > > 480/sr=1-17/002-5080852-7218268 > Michael McCafferty C.E.L.T. 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going from the me that others don't know to the other me that I don't know. -Juan Ramon Jimenez ******************************************************************************* From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Aug 9 13:53:29 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 07:53:29 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: Being an old veteran of the University of Texas at Austin, I can attest that Professor Vento of the Dept. of Spanish and Portuguese has some mighty strange ideas about the Nahuas, their language, history, and culture. A couple of other points about the current thread: The stem teo:- (as in teo:-tl "deity") was/is often used as an intensifier meaning 'super' or 'supernatural'. So if a deer is a big hooved animal, and one sees a horse for the first time, one might quite naturally refer to the beast as teo:maza:tl 'super deer' (or 'hooved beast bigger than any deer heretofore known to us'). It doesn't necesarily mean 'deer of the gods' as it has often been translated. The Spaniards reported that Nahuatl-speaking people referred to them as "teules" and that has been taken to mean that the indigenous people took the Spaniards to be gods. But maybe it just means that the indigenes were referring to their unfamiliar (hence beyond-natural) accoutrements. As to the comment: "The thing that first struck me, like a huge fist, was the overbearing Germanic -k- in the first syllable. Mok-????????" Syllable-final [k] is everywhere in Nahuatl. It's just spelled as c in the traditional orthography of Nahuatl. Spelling it with orthographic k instead doesn't make it Germanic. In fact, many Nahuatl speakers in this century have rejected the Spanish-based traditional orthography and prefer to use k and kw instead of c and uc. But "Moktekuzoma" was not the ruler's name. There is no syllable-final k at the end of the first syllable of this particular word. Using current non-traditional spelling, one would expect Motekwzoma. From micc at home.com Mon Aug 9 14:07:17 1999 From: micc at home.com (micc) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 08:07:17 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs II Message-ID: dear Michael, I can understand your distaste for the Germanic, but I also understand the use of the K by many for the hard C sound. As you well know that in Spanish and English the C can be a mask for the S sound as well as the k sound, so for those who are Spanish/English bilingual, (Like many Chicanos, who I guess are the target victims... I mean target audience of the book in question) the K is an artifice that helps relay the original sound of the Nahuatl.... Now that K also promises a problem when a K reader suddenly runs into a Maya word....since the K in Maya means a hard C sound followed by a glottla stop....I think???? thanks for the message!!! mario Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Well, micc, I don't think the unit phoneme that you discuss is the problem > here. > > The thing that first struck me, like a huge fist, was the overbearing > Germanic -k- in the first syllable. Mok-???????? > > Pow! > > On Sun, 8 Aug 1999, micc wrote: > > > > > > > Richard Haly wrote: > > > > > > Ouch.... > > > > > > languages (ie. non european ones) where this happens. The spelling of > > > Moteuczomah as Moktekuzoma is (as J. Richard Andrews can teach us) a flag > > > that this person doesn't know Nahuatl. > > > > > > why do you say that Moktekuzoma is incorrect and moteuczomah is correct? > > > > the problem arises with the othrographic representation of the Kw sound > > in Tekwtli. originally it was written by the spanish as > > tecutli, teuctli and teoctli, by several sources. > > > > But we know that the word has a kw sound and not a -cu sound nor a -euc > > sound. > > Like in xipe Totekw (Xipe totec) > > > > Hmmm.... > > > > > > > > > > This kind of PC appropriation > > > (Chicano of Nahua) is one of the things that I (Ph.D in hand) hate about > > > academia. First the reconquista and now the reteconquista. > > > > > > There are serious ethical issues of representation that such a book brings > > > up. I, who have done over 25 years of "fieldwork" with Nahuas and speak it > > > passably (understand it better) will only claim in my writings that what I > > > write is > > > a product of my _interaction_ with Nahua speakers. I am NOT PostModern > > > enough to admit such readings of the sources as Vento apparently feels > > > entitled to. > > > > > > ye ixquich. > > > > > > Richard Haly > > > > > > ---------- > > > >From: Mel Sanchez > > > >To: Multiple recipients of list > > > >Subject: Re: article on Aztecs II > > > >Date: Sun, Aug 08, 1999, 21:07 > > > > > > > > > > > Take a look at this from amazon.com: > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/book-contents/0761809201/qid=934166 > > > > 480/sr=1-17/002-5080852-7218268 > > > > Michael McCafferty > C.E.L.T. > 307 Memorial Hall > Indiana University > Bloomington, Indiana > 47405 > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > ******************************************************************************* > "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going > from the me that others don't know > to the other me that I don't know. > > -Juan Ramon Jimenez > > ******************************************************************************* From micc at home.com Mon Aug 9 14:21:08 1999 From: micc at home.com (micc) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 08:21:08 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: This is because mo = reflexive as in 'su sen~or, que se enoja' I understand? Frances Karttunen wrote: > ........ > But "Moktekuzoma" was not the ruler's name. There is no syllable-final k > at the end of the first syllable of this particular word. Using current > non-traditional spelling, one would expect Motekwzoma. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Aug 9 17:24:30 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 11:24:30 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: > As to the comment: "The thing that first struck me, like a huge fist, was > the overbearing Germanic -k- in the first syllable. Mok-????????" > > Syllable-final [k] is everywhere in Nahuatl. Sure. It's just spelled as c in the > traditional orthography of Nahuatl. Sure. Spelling it with orthographic k > instead doesn't make it Germanic. Ok. English. In fact, many Nahuatl speakers in this > century have rejected the Spanish-based traditional orthography and prefer > to use k and kw instead of c and uc. > Huh. > But "Moktekuzoma" was not the ruler's name. There is no syllable-final k > at the end of the first syllable of this particular word. PRECISELY! That is exactly what I meant. Unfortunately, I failed to make that explicit for all. Michael McCafferty C.E.L.T. 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Aug 9 22:09:46 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:09:46 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs II Message-ID: "Now that K also promises a problem when a K reader suddenly runs into a Maya word....since the K in Maya means a hard C sound followed by a glottla stop....I think????" The only Mayan language I know much about is Yucatec. There orthographic k stands for [k] ("hard C") in all contexts, including before the vowels i and e. Hence Yucatec ceh 'deer' is pronounced [keh], not [seh]. It's not a question of glottalization. Fran From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Aug 9 22:12:33 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:12:33 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: >This is because mo = reflexive as in 'su sen~or, que se enoja' I >understand? > Maybe more like "he has frowned in a lordly fashion". Fran From micc at home.com Mon Aug 9 22:28:21 1999 From: micc at home.com (micc) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:28:21 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: not like saying "su majestad"? or "se enojo"? thanks!! Frances Karttunen wrote: > > >This is because mo = reflexive as in 'su sen~or, que se enoja' I > >understand? > > > > Maybe more like "he has frowned in a lordly fashion". > > Fran From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Aug 9 22:53:43 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:53:43 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: >not like saying "su majestad"? or "se enojo"? > The verb zo:ma: 'to frown (in anger)' is reflexive in Nahuatl. So it has to take the mo- prefix, even when used as a name. The te:uc- 'lord' in this construction functions as an adverb meaning something like 'in a lordly fashion'. Zo:ma: is a "class 4" or "class D" verb and takes a final glottal stop in the preterite form. Since the glottal stop generally wasn't written in the traditional orthography, one gets orthographic "-zoma" rather than -zo:mah." One sees the preterite form more clearly in Cuauhtemoc (Cua:uhtemo:c) 'he has descended in the manner of an eagle' because temo: is a class 1/class A verb and takes the suffix -c in the preterite. Temo: is NOT a reflexive verb in Nahuatl, so there is no initial mo-. Isn't it interesting that from language to language, which verbs are reflexive and which are not isn't predictable? Another example is the Nahuatl verb pa:qui, which is NOT relexive in Nahuatl, even though it can usually be properly translated into English as 'to enjoy oneself' (i.e., reflexive in English). Languages are just fascinating in their variety and elegance. > >Frances Karttunen wrote: >> >> >This is because mo = reflexive as in 'su sen~or, que se enoja' I >> >understand? >> > >> >> Maybe more like "he has frowned in a lordly fashion". >> >> Fran From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Aug 9 22:56:22 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:56:22 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: When nouns (i.e., tewktli or teuctli) are embedded in verbs, we get the clearest translation (equivalence with what we mean in English or Spanish) if we translate them as objects of the verb or, as in this case, as adverbs. I can't think of a case where translating as "subject" would be preferred. Further, while the semantics of "mo-zoma" (or "nino-zoma") certainly intersect the field of 'anger' ("cualani" or "yolpopozoca") because of the relationship between the internal emotion and the facial expression, "mozoma" means 'he frowns' -- 'he changes the shape of his eyebrows in a negative way'. I will add some Molina-ness at the bottom. }8-( Joe - On Mon, 9 Aug 1999, micc wrote: > not like saying "su majestad"? or "se enojo"? >=20 > thanks!! >=20 > Frances Karttunen wrote: > >=20 > > >This is because mo =3D reflexive as in 'su sen~or, que se enoja' I > > >understand? > > > > >=20 > > Maybe more like "he has frowned in a lordly fashion". > >=20 > > Fran >=20 (the pesky mysterious little symbols should have come out as c cedillas) =20 nezomaltia (nite). {{ne=87umaltia =3Dnite}} ayrar a otro. 55m-012r-00 nezomaltia (nite). {{ne=87umaltia =3Dnite}} ayrar a otro. 71m1-7-1-1 =20 nezomaltia (nitla). {{ne=87umaltia =3Dnitla}} ser mohino y mal acondiciona= do. 71m1-109-19 nezomaltia (nitla-invert.1). {{tlanezomaltia =3Dni=3Donitlanezomalti}} ser mohino y mal acondicionado. 71m2-127-4-13-22 =20 zoma (nino). {{=87uma =3Dnino}} ayrarse. 55m-012r-00 zoma (nino). {{=87uma =3Dnino}} coraje tener. 55m-055r-3 zoma (nino). {{=87uma =3Dnino}} echarse el ni=A4o en el suelo de coraje. 55m-091r-6 zoma (nino). {{=87uma =3Dnino}} coraje tener. 71m1-31-5 zoma (nino). {{=87uma =3Dnino}} echarse y rebolcarse por el suelo el ni=A4= o de coraje. 71m1-49-9 zoma (nino). {{zuma =3Dnino=3Doninozuma}} poner el ce=A4o el que esta enoj= ado. 71m2-27-4-45-5 =20 zomale. {{=87umale}} sa=A4udo. 71m1-100-19 zomale. {{zumale}} sa=A4udo y lleno de coraje. 71m2-28-1-01-5 =20 zomaliztica (ne-invert.2). {{ne=87umaliztica}} ayradamente. 55m-012r-00 zomaliztica (ne-invert.2). {{ne=87umaliztica}} ayradamente, o con yra. 71m1-7-1-1 zomaliztica (ne-invert.2). {{nezumaliztica}} encapotada o enojosamente. 71m2-65-3-18-11 =20 zomaliztli (ne-invert.2). {{ne=87umaliztli}} coraje. 55m-055r-3 zomaliztli (ne-invert.2). {{ne=87umaliztli}} coraje. 71m1-31-5 zomaliztli (ne-invert.2). {{nezumaliztli}} tirria enojo, o encapotamiento. 71m2-65-3-19-11 =20 zomalli. {{=87umalli}} coraje. 55m-055r-3 zomalli. {{=87umalli}} coraje. 71m1-31-5 zomalli. {{zumalli}} coraje o sa=A4a. 71m2-28-4-01-5 zomalli. {{zumalli}} coraje o sa=A4a. 71m2-28-1201-5 =20 zomaltia (nitene-invert.1). {{nezumaltia =3Dnite=3Donitenezumalti}} dar ca= usa a otro de enojo o de encapotamiento. 71m2-65-3-20-11 =20 zomani (mo). {{mo=87omani}} ayrada cosa. 55m-012r-00 zomani (mo). {{mo=87umani}} corajado. 55m-055r-3 zomani (mo). {{mo=87omani}} ayrado. 71m1-7-1-1 zomani (mo). {{mozomani}} enojado de embidia que contra otro tiene. 71m2-58-1-17-10 zomani (mo). {{mozumani}} enojado de embidia que contra alguno tiene. 71m2-58-1-38-10 =20 zozoma impatolli (mo). {{mozozoma inpatolli}} dezir mal el juego. 71m2-58-1-15-10 =20 zozoma in patolli (mo). {{mo=87o=87oma yn patolli}} dezir mal el juego. 71m1-45-8 =20 zozoman patolli (mo). {{mo=87o=87oma/patolli}} dezir mal en juego. 55m-084= r-6 ---- From Huaxyacac at aol.com Mon Aug 9 23:21:19 1999 From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 17:21:19 -0600 Subject: orthography Message-ID: As far as I understand it, in the Colonial Yucatec orthography, "c" stood for the "k" sounds, and "k" for glottalized "k". In modern orthography this has been changed to "k" and "k' ". I far prefer studying a language with a simpler set of sounds, like Nahuatl..... Alec Christensen From maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Tue Aug 10 20:35:38 1999 From: maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:35:38 -0600 Subject: Issue of Sacrifice Message-ID: Neither prehistoric archaeology nor historical ethnographic material are reliable even in the best of cases and are usually made up of narratives that are based more on assumptions of what we do not know rather than what we do know. In any case, there is not one archaeological or historical ethnographical piece of material that is not under contention because of the necessarily interpretive process that must go into it to make sense of it, while at the same time making a mess of it. Basically, my point is that the scientific humanities of archaeology, anthropology and history need to be recognized as the interpretive attempts that they are and not as reliable sources of truth. It surprises me how "matter of fact" rhetoric spews forth when it should always be qualified by "according to an interpretation". For example, your interpretation of sacrifice may mean to make something sacred but you have yet to explain what it means to make something sacred and how the drastic and dramatic act of taking life can be anything less than sacred for any human being who has not desensitized and dehumanized themselves to the value of human life. To provide a contrast, it is useful to bring human sacrifice back home and consider the place that ritual death has become relatively commonplace in the US through serial murder, terrorism and mass suicide. How many of us think of these activities as human sacrifice as they go one in or around most urban centers in the US? Maybe some of us can feel better about them if we do not sloganize them and sensationalize them as brutal cases of human sacrifice and instead think about them as isolated and unrelated incidents. However, if we apply the analytic of human sacrifice as sacred killing practices according to a less than fully understood belief system, anything from the Oklahoma City bombing to adolescent vampirism can be seen as human sacrifice. The important point here is that we do not understand human sacrifice either in the Valley of Mexico 1500 or in the US 2000 well enough to sloganize it. On a more personal note, I reacted to the statements of human sacrifice because they emotionally concern me as a Chicano who has been insulted and affronted by the scholastic treatment of ritual death in the Valley of Mexico as sensationalized Aztec human sacrifice. I want to make you aware that you cause pain each time you refer to Aztec human sacrifice as something to refer to matter of factly. When the Aztec Exhibit came to Denver, Colorado it portrayed the heritage of Mexican people as bloodthirsty and brutal, which created an environment in which I and many Chicanos and Mexicanos were asked "Did your ancestors really do that?" Such exhibits and the consequent attitudes that I still hear every so often are reckless and hurtful and not productive to intelligent discussion so I ask you to please stop while at the same time apologizing for inciteful comments that I have made in reaction to them. I think that instead of sloganizing and sensationalizing human sacrifice as has been done through the Aztec Exhibit we can look at other ways in which killing and ritual killing makes sense or not to us as part of our world and take that complexity in order to respect the likelihood that we can never understand the role that it played for the people in the Valley of Mexico. On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > > > Note also that European war practices before the present century generally > > did not target civilians (during the actual battles). Noncombatants were > > eliminated (if they were) by other means (displacement, starvation, > > terrorism, and so forth). The Spaniards did not *directly* kill all tha > > many Nahua, and most of those were warriors. Disease and societal > > collapse did the bulk of the work of native depopulation. > > Plus, there is both prehistoric archaeological and reliable historical > ethnographic material showing that at least in North American the killing > of women and children was one way of warring. So much of the > current discussion about this sort of thing reminds me too much of the > Japanese attempts to hide the facts of their World War II atrocities from > the modern generation. Humans are humans. Sheesh happens. > > > > > Michael McCafferty > C.E.L.T. > 307 Memorial Hall > Indiana University > Bloomington, Indiana > 47405 > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > ******************************************************************************* > "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going > from the me that others don't know > to the other me that I don't know. > > -Juan Ramon Jimenez > > ******************************************************************************* > > > From melesan at pacbell.net Tue Aug 10 22:39:16 1999 From: melesan at pacbell.net (Mel Sanchez) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:39:16 -0600 Subject: Aztec article Message-ID: Greetings all, Just had some communication with Dr. Vento and he apparently is influenced by German scholars, ethnographer Peter Hassler and Peter Lang. This probably accounts for his use of German linguistics in his orthography. He cites World Press Review, DEC 92 "The Lies of the Conquistadores" for the former and Die Zeit in Hamburg "Human Sacrifice among the Aztecs? A Critical Study" for the latter. Finally, he refers to "a more detailed study in Ce Acatl of Mexico City showing the contradictions and blunders of the Spanish." Mel From micc at home.com Wed Aug 11 00:46:17 1999 From: micc at home.com (micc) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:46:17 -0600 Subject: Issue of Sacrifice Message-ID: Carnale get a life and quit pontificating. your search for acceptance by the Euro-american academe is causing your to spout out things that really don't make sense. truly yours, mario maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu wrote: > > Neither prehistoric archaeology nor historical ethnographic material are > reliable even in the best of cases and are usually made up of narratives > that are based more on assumptions of what we do not know rather than what > we do know. In any case, there is not one archaeological or historical > ethnographical piece of material that is not under contention because of > the necessarily interpretive process that must go into it to make sense of > it, while at the same time making a mess of it. Basically, my point is > that the scientific humanities of archaeology, anthropology and history > need to be recognized as the interpretive attempts that they are and not > as reliable sources of truth. It surprises me how "matter of fact" > rhetoric spews forth when it should always be qualified by "according to > an interpretation". For example, your interpretation of sacrifice may > mean to make something sacred but you have yet to explain what it means to > make something sacred and how the drastic and dramatic act of taking life > can be anything less than sacred for any human being who has not > desensitized and dehumanized themselves to the value of human life. > > To provide a contrast, it is useful to bring human sacrifice back home and > consider the place that ritual death has become relatively commonplace in > the US through serial murder, terrorism and mass suicide. How many of > us think of these activities as human sacrifice as they go one in or > around most urban centers in the US? Maybe some of us can feel better > about them if we do not sloganize them and sensationalize them as brutal > cases of human sacrifice and instead think about them as isolated > and unrelated incidents. However, if we apply the analytic of human > sacrifice as sacred killing practices according to a less than fully > understood belief system, anything from the Oklahoma City bombing to > adolescent vampirism can be seen as human sacrifice. The important > point here is that we do not understand human sacrifice either in the > Valley of Mexico 1500 or in the US 2000 well enough to sloganize it. > > On a more personal note, I reacted to the statements of human sacrifice > because they emotionally concern me as a Chicano who has been insulted and > affronted by the scholastic treatment of ritual death in the Valley > of Mexico as sensationalized Aztec human sacrifice. I want to make you > aware that you cause pain each time you refer to Aztec human sacrifice as > something to refer to matter of factly. When the Aztec Exhibit came to > Denver, Colorado it portrayed the heritage of Mexican people as > bloodthirsty and brutal, which created an environment in which I and many > Chicanos and Mexicanos were asked "Did your ancestors really do that?" > Such exhibits and the consequent attitudes that I still hear every so > often are reckless and hurtful and not productive to intelligent > discussion so I ask you to please stop while at the same time > apologizing for inciteful comments that I have made in reaction to them. > I think that instead of sloganizing and sensationalizing human sacrifice > as has been done through the Aztec Exhibit we can look at other ways in > which killing and ritual killing makes sense or not to us as part of our > world and take that complexity in order to respect the likelihood that we > can never understand the role that it played for the people in the Valley > of Mexico. > > On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > > > > > > Note also that European war practices before the present century generally > > > did not target civilians (during the actual battles). Noncombatants were > > > eliminated (if they were) by other means (displacement, starvation, > > > terrorism, and so forth). The Spaniards did not *directly* kill all tha > > > many Nahua, and most of those were warriors. Disease and societal > > > collapse did the bulk of the work of native depopulation. > > > > Plus, there is both prehistoric archaeological and reliable historical > > ethnographic material showing that at least in North American the killing > > of women and children was one way of warring. So much of the > > current discussion about this sort of thing reminds me too much of the > > Japanese attempts to hide the facts of their World War II atrocities from > > the modern generation. Humans are humans. Sheesh happens. > > > > > > > > > > Michael McCafferty > > C.E.L.T. > > 307 Memorial Hall > > Indiana University > > Bloomington, Indiana > > 47405 > > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > > > ******************************************************************************* > > "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going > > from the me that others don't know > > to the other me that I don't know. > > > > -Juan Ramon Jimenez > > > > ******************************************************************************* > > > > > > From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Aug 11 03:02:14 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:02:14 -0600 Subject: Issue of Sacrifice -- ye ixquich.... Message-ID: Listeros, When you join the local society for the "cultivation of anything" and get together on a friend's front porch to enjoy each others' company and talk about the cultivation of ***that*** "anything", you'd probably respect the ground rules about not spitting on the porch, not cussing loud enough for grandma to hear it from the kitchen, and not starting arguments that distract everybody from the purpose of being there. Well, if anybody has walked past our porch in the last few days, they'd shake their head and say, "those people aren't cultivating what they got together to cultivate!" The list owner has asked us to recognize that the "human sacrifice" theme has been run into the ground for purposes of group discussion. If Mr. A. and Ms. B. want to continue it privately, that's their business. So long as they, being two consenting adults, are using only each other's time and are not contaminating the water downstream, the group can go about its business, hopefully in harmony. In any case, we should all remember that personal remarks are out-of-bounds (unless, of course, they are in the nature of a pat on the back.). My only personal remark at this point is that I'm glad that Fritz has provided us this forum for the exchange of ideas, information, and resources about Nahuatl and the culture associated with it. Best regards, Joe p.s. Fritz' last reminder: >>From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Aug 10 21:16:47 1999 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:32:40 -0600 From: "John F. Schwaller" Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Human sacrifice Dear members, The current thread on sacrifice has now moved to a point relatively far beyond the parameters of the list. If you wish to continue the discussion, which does have merit and which I have found interesting, please do it off-line. I must agree that to call any death by warfare "sacrifice" muddies the term in such a way as to make clear discussion meaningless. It is the over-riding cultural context that must be taken into account, as the friars did when they quickly developed moral plays on the theme of the Sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham. J. F. Schwaller, List Owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From xikano_1 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 11 14:59:58 1999 From: xikano_1 at hotmail.com (XiKano *) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:59:58 -0600 Subject: Issue of Sacrifice -- ye ixquich.... Message-ID: I say, Live It or Live With It - There's always the delete button, isn't there? Or is that too much of a strain? -XiKano >From: "R. Joe Campbell" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Issue of Sacrifice -- ye ixquich.... >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:02:31 -0600 > >Listeros, > When you join the local society for the "cultivation of anything" and >get together on a friend's front porch to enjoy each others' company and >talk about the cultivation of ***that*** "anything", you'd probably >respect the ground rules about not spitting on the porch, not cussing loud >enough for grandma to hear it from the kitchen, and not starting arguments >that distract everybody from the purpose of being there. > > Well, if anybody has walked past our porch in the last few days, they'd >shake their head and say, "those people aren't cultivating what they got >together to cultivate!" The list owner has asked us to recognize that the >"human sacrifice" theme has been run into the ground for purposes of group >discussion. If Mr. A. and Ms. B. want to continue it privately, that's >their business. So long as they, being two consenting adults, are using >only each other's time and are not contaminating the water downstream, the >group can go about its business, hopefully in harmony. > > In any case, we should all remember that personal remarks are >out-of-bounds (unless, of course, they are in the nature of a pat on the >back.). My only personal remark at this point is that I'm glad that Fritz >has provided us this forum for the exchange of ideas, information, and >resources about Nahuatl and the culture associated with it. > >Best regards, > >Joe > >p.s. Fritz' last reminder: > > > >From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Aug 10 21:16:47 1999 >Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:32:40 -0600 >From: "John F. Schwaller" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Human sacrifice > >Dear members, > >The current thread on sacrifice has now moved to a point relatively far >beyond the parameters of the list. If you wish to continue the discussion, >which does have merit and which I have found interesting, please do it >off-line. I must agree that to call any death by warfare "sacrifice" >muddies the term in such a way as to make clear discussion meaningless. It >is the over-riding cultural context that must be taken into account, as the >friars did when they quickly developed moral plays on the theme of the >Sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham. > >J. F. Schwaller, List Owner > > >John Frederick Schwaller >schwallr at selway.umt.edu >Associate Provost 406-243-4722 >The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 > http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From salvador at iastate.edu Wed Aug 11 16:36:10 1999 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:36:10 -0600 Subject: Issue of Sacrifice -- ye ixquich.... Message-ID: At 10:01 AM -0500 8/11/99, XiKano * wrote: >I say, Live It or Live With It - There's always the delete >button, isn't there? Or is that too much of a strain? > >-XiKano The "strain" comes from having to parse through all correspondence in order to glean items of value and relevance given the PURPOSE of the list. Mailing lists such as these are focused on specific topics for a reason, and Joe makes a reasonable appeal for us to bear this in mind. This etiquette means only that the purpose of the list and its subscribers are best served by observing our guidelines, NOT that topics extraneous to the guidelines are unimportant. However, ancillary matters should be pursued in more appropriate contexts. One brief example of why this is reasonable follows. Joe Campbell, Fran Karttunen, Fritz Schwaller and others on this list have at various times during the lifetime of the mailing list been "called to task" by other subscribers for failing to respond immediately to specific queries. Leaving aside the embedded assumption that such individuals are at our beck and call for personalized consultation, this expectation fails to take into account that most members manage busy schedules and responsibilities, and that sifting through mailing lists for items of value and interest is not conducive to their active participation. In the interest of rapid, substantial and effective interaction between specialists, students and "onlookers", it is best for all of us keep the signal-to-noise ratio of the communcation as high as possible. Joe has put this as gently as can be: >>From: "R. Joe Campbell" .. >>The list owner has asked us to recognize that the >>"human sacrifice" theme has been run into the ground for purposes of group >>discussion. .. >> In any case, we should all remember that personal remarks are >>out-of-bounds (unless, of course, they are in the nature of a pat on the >>back.). My only personal remark at this point is that I'm glad that Fritz >>has provided us this forum for the exchange of ideas, information, and >>resources about Nahuatl and the culture associated with it. Which raises one last point. At the moment, Fritz is on the road travelling and has left me as caretaker of the list. It should go without mention that the final arbiter of appropriate content is the person who envisioned, created and maintains the list. He, likewise, has made his view on this as clearly and politely as possible: >> >From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Aug 10 21:16:47 1999 >>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:32:40 -0600 >>From: "John F. Schwaller" >>Subject: Human sacrifice >> >>Dear members, >> >>The current thread on sacrifice has now moved to a point relatively far >>beyond the parameters of the list. If you wish to continue the discussion, >>which does have merit and which I have found interesting, please do it >>off-line .. >>J. F. Schwaller, List Owner Let us return to cordial and productive exchange on the Nahuatl language. Your humble tetlayecoltiani. Ricardo J. Salvador E-mail: mailto:salvador at iastate.edu 1126 Agronomy Hall Voice: 515.294.9595 Iowa State University Fax: 515.294.8146 Ames IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Aug 11 17:24:04 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:24:04 -0600 Subject: that is not the question Message-ID: No, XiKano, the question is not "live it or live with it"; the issue is that the owner of this list has very kindly requested that we move on to other topics. In fact, he has kindly asked us twice to do this. That is the issue. Given that we all appreciate his sponsoring this list, that requires simple politeness. That's the issue Michael On Wed, 11 Aug 1999, XiKano * wrote: > I say, Live It or Live With It - There's always the delete > button, isn't there? Or is that too much of a strain? > > -XiKano > > > >From: "R. Joe Campbell" > >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > >To: Multiple recipients of list > >Subject: Re: Issue of Sacrifice -- ye ixquich.... > >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:02:31 -0600 > > > >Listeros, > > When you join the local society for the "cultivation of anything" and > >get together on a friend's front porch to enjoy each others' company and > >talk about the cultivation of ***that*** "anything", you'd probably > >respect the ground rules about not spitting on the porch, not cussing loud > >enough for grandma to hear it from the kitchen, and not starting arguments > >that distract everybody from the purpose of being there. > > > > Well, if anybody has walked past our porch in the last few days, they'd > >shake their head and say, "those people aren't cultivating what they got > >together to cultivate!" The list owner has asked us to recognize that the > >"human sacrifice" theme has been run into the ground for purposes of group > >discussion. If Mr. A. and Ms. B. want to continue it privately, that's > >their business. So long as they, being two consenting adults, are using > >only each other's time and are not contaminating the water downstream, the > >group can go about its business, hopefully in harmony. > > > > In any case, we should all remember that personal remarks are > >out-of-bounds (unless, of course, they are in the nature of a pat on the > >back.). My only personal remark at this point is that I'm glad that Fritz > >has provided us this forum for the exchange of ideas, information, and > >resources about Nahuatl and the culture associated with it. > > > >Best regards, > > > >Joe > > > >p.s. Fritz' last reminder: > > > > > > >From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Aug 10 21:16:47 1999 > >Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:32:40 -0600 > >From: "John F. Schwaller" > >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > >To: Multiple recipients of list > >Subject: Human sacrifice > > > >Dear members, > > > >The current thread on sacrifice has now moved to a point relatively far > >beyond the parameters of the list. If you wish to continue the discussion, > >which does have merit and which I have found interesting, please do it > >off-line. I must agree that to call any death by warfare "sacrifice" > >muddies the term in such a way as to make clear discussion meaningless. It > >is the over-riding cultural context that must be taken into account, as the > >friars did when they quickly developed moral plays on the theme of the > >Sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham. > > > >J. F. Schwaller, List Owner > > > > > >John Frederick Schwaller > >schwallr at selway.umt.edu > >Associate Provost 406-243-4722 > >The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 > > http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > Michael McCafferty C.E.L.T. 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going from the me that others don't know to the other me that I don't know. -Juan Ramon Jimenez ******************************************************************************* From fabian at nuclecu.unam.mx Wed Aug 11 18:06:38 1999 From: fabian at nuclecu.unam.mx (Fabian E. Pena Arellano) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:06:38 -0600 Subject: Ethimology of ilna:miqui and ilcahua. Message-ID: Hello, Would anyone of the list mind telling me what are the ethimoligies of the words ilna:miqui "to remember" and ilcahua (to forget)? As far as I know, na:miqui means to meet, to find; and cahua to drop off, to leave behind. Ilna:miqui "sounds" to me something like "to find memories" and cahua "to leave behind memories". What does il- stand for in these verbs? Thank you. Fabian Pena. From mdmorris at indiana.edu Wed Aug 11 18:24:27 1999 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark Morris) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:24:27 -0600 Subject: Ethimology of ilna:miqui and ilcahua. Message-ID: Fabian, A quick note now until more knowledgeable others respond. Il-, I learned from R. Joe Campbell, represents breath/mental energy, but does not appear as a separate morpheme or "word." In addition to ilna:miqui and ilca:hua there is iltequi which is something like to sip a hot bowl of soup. How this might compare to ihiyotl I am ignorant. Mark From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 11 20:51:07 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:51:07 -0600 Subject: Ethimology of ilna:miqui and ilcahua. Message-ID: My own ethnographic work seems to indicate that the il- on ilnamiqui etc is derived from elli liver and source of emotions. People have described the relationship between heart and liver (seat of memory and emotional motivation) by interlacing their fingertips in front of their chest. Richard Haly ---------- >From: Mark Morris >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Ethimology of ilna:miqui and ilcahua. >Date: Wed, Aug 11, 1999, 12:25 > > A quick note now until more knowledgeable others respond. Il-, I learned > from R. Joe Campbell, represents breath/mental energy, but does not appear as > a separate morpheme or "word." In addition to ilna:miqui and ilca:hua there > is iltequi which is something like to sip a hot bowl of soup. How this might > compare to ihiyotl I am ignorant. Mark From riitkallio at kolumbus.fi Wed Aug 11 21:07:45 1999 From: riitkallio at kolumbus.fi (Annika Riit-Kallio) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:07:45 -0600 Subject: about artesany Message-ID: Question from Finland; I am a student of cultural anthropology and have visited Mexico a few times. I have one question and hope someone can answer. I know it is not only an Aztec thing but I have wondered what is the origin and the symbol of "three legs" (used a lot for example in pottery and other utility articles). Regards, Annika From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Aug 12 06:05:19 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:05:19 -0600 Subject: Etymology of ilna:miqui and ilcahua. Message-ID: Fabian, I think that items (I can't say 'words' or 'morphemes') like "ilna:miqui" and "ilca:hua" are at the heart of what makes Nahuatl semantics/morphology enjoyable to do every day. You never know how far on the scale of metaphor-making the next word is going to be. In this case, you also (as Mark has pointed out) get the additional mystery of an element "-il-" which is not distributed the way Nahuatl are in general -- they participate with combination with many other stems and they frequently have more than one level of derivation. On the surface, it looks like "-il-" totally hides its basic nature. Is it more like a noun or more like a verb? Or something else? I think the answer lies in the fact that two verbs don't get slapped together in Nahuatl the way nouns do. With nouns, you get: (this is a long example and "-il-" *is* coming back...) Nouns combine directly with nouns (noun + noun): (this list expects you to remember items you've already seen as you go.) calli house nacaztli ear cal-nacaztli corner of a house amoxtli book amoxcalli bookstore cuitlatl excrement cuitlacalli latrine nacazcuitlatl ear wax atl water xictli navel axictli whirlpool acalli boat, canoe huictli hoe ahuictli oar yacatl nose acalyacatl prow of a ship yacacuitlatl mucous That's enough noun + noun compounds to make the point. (if y'all want more of them, there are more left.) ------------------------- Nouns also combine directly with verbs. We say that they are embedded in verbs as the direct object. amoxtli book pohua read amoxpohua he reads a book (he book-reads) cuicatl song chalania clank cuicachalania he gets a song out of tune zoquitl mud chihua make zoquichihua he makes clay for building a wall mazatl deer (sometimes horse) maitl hand ilpia tie mazamailpia he hobbles horses ehuatl skin huehuetl upright drum tzotzona pound ehuahuehuetzotzona he plays a tambourine -------------------------------- Even verbs which won't take direct objects will take a pre-posed noun. Verbs that won't take a direct object: 1. intransitive 2. reflexive (since the reflexive object **is** the direct object) The pre-posed noun acts as an **adverb**. +++Note that this group is related to the recent discussion on "mo-teuc-zoma". coyotl coyote nehnemi walk nicoyonehnemi I walk like a coyote (ni- = I) apiztli hunger miqui die apizmiqui he is starving choca weep, cry, howl coyochoca he howls like a coyote ana grab, drag nite*-yaca-ana I govern somebody (nite* = I + somebody) aqui fit, get into nizoquiaqui I get mired down in mud icxitl foot, leg n(i)icxinehnemi I walk on foot ----------- The example *did* get out of maitl, but I thought you'd like to really knead the dough of word structure a little bit. Anyway, the point is that something that is immediately juxtaposed to a verb is probably a *noun*. So "-il-", being a noun, if we add the normal "absolutive" ending (like "cal-", "calli"), would be "illi". It is probably like "nit" in English; not many people can say what a "nit" is. It shows up in "nitpicker" and "nitpicking", but what is a "nit". Since what shows up before "-picker" in words like "cottonpicker", "cornpicker", "peapicker" (thank you, Ern), "applepicker", etc., is a noun, then "nit" must be a noun, but a noun that is extinct in the vocabulary of most speakers of modern English. Although it still lives in "nitpicker", it is an obsolete morpheme in the English of most people today. I think that the same thing is true of "illi". The notion of "spirit" is connected with "breath". I think that that is basic meaning of 'illi" and that it is interpreted as "mental"; therefore, when you "tiqu-ilcahua" something, you *leave it mentally* (forget it); when you "tiqui-ilnamiqui" something, you *find (run together with [literally, like two pieces of lumber], join with) it mentally*. Basically, I think that you had already intuited the right answer. Best regards Joe p.s. and pardon necatlahtol. From robc at csufresno.edu Thu Aug 12 15:36:49 1999 From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert G. Comegys) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:36:49 -0600 Subject: Etymology of ilna:miqui and ilcahua. Message-ID: Thanks for the very clear explanation. To unhappily quote George Armstrong Custer: "Nits make lice". A nit is the egg of a louse. It is, of course, very small, hence nitwit. Regards, John Comegys R. Joe Campbell wrote: It is probably like "nit" in English; > not many people can say what a "nit" is. It shows up in "nitpicker" and > "nitpicking", but what is a "nit". Since what shows up before "-picker" > in words like "cottonpicker", "cornpicker", "peapicker" (thank you, Ern), > "applepicker", etc., is a noun, then "nit" must be a noun, but a noun that > is extinct in the vocabulary of most speakers of modern English. Although > it still lives in "nitpicker", it is an obsolete morpheme in the English > of most people today. > From dfrye at umich.edu Thu Aug 12 17:16:00 1999 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:16:00 -0600 Subject: Etymology of ilna:miqui and ilcahua. Message-ID: > ... "nit" must be a noun, but a noun that is extinct in the vocabulary > of most speakers of modern English. Although it still lives in > "nitpicker", it is an obsolete morpheme in the English of most people > today. Joe must not have young kids, or if he does they must have escaped the head lice that seem endemic in schools these days! Nitpicking? Been there, done that. btw, thanks for another fascinating exchange. David Frye From fabian at nuclecu.unam.mx Fri Aug 13 20:10:14 1999 From: fabian at nuclecu.unam.mx (Fabian E. Pena Arellano) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:10:14 -0600 Subject: Another version of ethimologies of ilna:miqui and ilca:hua. Message-ID: Hello, In virtude of the answers I got related to the ethimologies of ilca:hua and ilna:miqui, I consulted Alfredo Lopez Austin's "Cuerpo Humano e Ideologia" printed by the Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico (pp. 208, 209, vol. 1). He propouses another meaning of the particle "il-". First of all he does not consider such particle directly related to la liver except in one case. In general, he considers the particle related to that organ as "el-" (he never indicates the length of the vowels, so it may be "e:l-" as well). By the beginning of his study about the animic centers through a philological analysis he considers the particle "il-" as a possible variant of "el-" without any semantic difference. Analyzing a wide range of words with "il-" which are not related to cognitive processes he concludes that "il-" stands for "curve, turn around, comming back" rather than anything ralated with the liver: "En el grupo el quedo incluido un caso de il: zan ilihuiz, advervio que significa "sin tiento". Originalmente se habian tomado en cuenta otros terminos mas en los que aparecen ya esta particula, ya la particula ellel. La razon de la inicial inclusion de il fue la posibilidad de que il y el fuesen simples variantes, sin diferencia siquiera de matiz semantico, como lo son tlael y tlail. Ademas, terminos ligados al concepto de memoria se forman con il, lo que hacia muy sugerente que los recuerdos se concentraran en el higado. Este material tuvo que desecharse al analizar, por precaucion, otros muchos compuestos de la misma particula que no tenian relacion con los procesos animicos. Revisar un volumen critico de material es una precaucion muy recomendable al que no quiera construir castillos de naipes. Resulto un valor aplicable a il: el de 'curva', 'vuelta', 'regreso', que explica muy claramente los terminos referentes a la memoria y al olvido. Para dar unos ejemplos de este material, cito ilacatzoa ('enrollar'), ilpia ('atar'), ilacatzihui ('cosa torcida'), ilhuitl ('dia, dia de fiesta') e ilhuicatl ('cielo'), estos dos ultimos muy acordes con la cosmovision nahuatl del tiempo que transcurre en giro en el mundo intermedio, que hace de cada dia un punto de retorno que se liga al tiempo divino. Asi pudo verse que tlalmactia [tla-il-namactia] ('recordar') significa 'encontrarse de regreso con las cosas', y tlalcahua [tla-il-cahua] ('olvidar'), 'abandonar el retorno de las cosas'. "Hay, sin embargo, una excepcion que da a il el valir de el. En zan ilihuiz, no solo acepto el valor de 'vuelta', sino que forma un pareado antitetico con zan iyulic. La traduccion literal de zan ilihuiz, si se supone que il tiene el mismo valir que el, es 'solo como si (se hiciera con) el higado', mientras que zan iyulic es literalmente 'solo con su corazon'. Zan iyulic es traducido por Molona como 'mansamente, con tiento o poco a poco', mientras que el mismo autor da a zan ilhuiz el valor de 'sin tiento, sin consideracion, sin estimacion o por ahi como se quiera'. Son dos firmas muy diferentes de accion: o con el corazon (zan iyulic) o con el higado (zan ilihuiz)." If Lopez Austin is right, what would ilhuicatl (or ilhi:catl?) mean? Hui:ca means "to carry, to guide"; would ilhui:catl mean "that is carried back, that is guided back"? This translation would agree with the idea of the nahuas about the time, since what happens in the sky is repeated and the days were thought to come back every 52 years. What would ilhuitl (or ilhitl?) mean? According to Launey, the verb "to go, ir" is constructed with the particles ya:- and hui:- (what do these particles stand for?); the verb "to come, venir" is constructed with the same hui:- and a suffix -tz which indicates an approach. If we consider this hui:- particle as something close to "to go", ilhui:tl would mean "that goes back", isn't it? On the other hand, what is the ethimology of ilama "old woman", anyway? Sincerely yours, Fabian Pena Arellano. From mikegaby at hotmail.com Mon Aug 16 01:43:46 1999 From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 19:43:46 -0600 Subject: AZ: Malinalli Message-ID: Listeros, Recently I had asked the list for a translation of Malinalli. This was due to a passage in the book _Jaguar Wisdom_ which claimed the word referred to an "energy cord" that passed between the layers of heaven and the earth in Aztec beliefs. I pretty much dismissed this as "esoteric nonsense". However, I have found a similar description in a passage in David Carrasco's _Religions of Mesoamerica_ where he states "Each of the realms...were permeated with supernatural powers circulating up and down the cosmic levels through spiral-shaped passages called 'malinallis'." I am sceptical because he does not quote any sources, and because he adds the english "s" to indicate plural. My question to those on the list more familiar with literary sources than I, is this: Are there any preconquest or colonial literary sources to suggest that the Mexica subscribed to this kind of "esoteric" beliefs? It all sounds pretty "New Age" to me. Thanks, Mike San Diego _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Aug 16 18:51:40 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:51:40 -0600 Subject: AZ: Malinalli Message-ID: > However, I have found a similar description in a passage in David >Carrasco's _Religions of Mesoamerica_ where he states "Each of the >realms...were permeated with supernatural powers circulating up and down the >cosmic levels through spiral-shaped passages called 'malinallis'." >I am sceptical because he does not quote any sources, and because he adds >the english "s" to indicate plural. >My question to those on the list more familiar with literary sources than I, >is this: >Are there any preconquest or colonial literary sources to suggest that the >Mexica subscribed to this kind of "esoteric" beliefs? > I think there may be two sources for this idea as expressed by David Carrasco. First is Bierhorst's controversial translation of the Cantares mexicanos (Cantares Mexicanos: Songs of the Aztecs Translated froM the Nahuatl with an Introduction and Commentary. Stanford University Press, 1985), where Bierhorst makes a great to-do about ghosts and songs whirling up and down. Bierhorst's interpretation of the Cantare seems to derive uncomfortably from the whole, much-later Ghost Dance religion of North America, and B. himself says there is precious little documentation for a similar tradition in Mesoamerica. But he takes the very fact that the friar evangelists missed it to be a sign that it was there and very, very covert. Bierhorst's translation and interpretation has been critically evaluated by both Miguel Leon-Portilla and James Lockhart, and their critiques are worth having a look at, since they are intelligently done from a wealth of background knowledge. If Carrasco accepts Bierhorst's interpretation of the Cantares, he needs to tell his readers where he gets the whirling pathways ideas and why he accepts them. Source 2 is etymological. The noun malinalli refers to a twisted bunch of grass, and it is one of the calendrical signs associated with the south in the 260-day tonalpohualli (count of the days). As a calendrical sign, it is always associated with a number from 1-13. The noun is derived from the transitive verb malina 'to twist or wind something." When malina is used reflexively, it means for something to twist itself, to wind, to spiral. Another transitive/reflexive verb also meaning 'to revolve or spin something, to twist' is malacachoa, with the associated noun malacatl 'spindle, bobbin, or spiral'. Malacaehecatl 'spiral wind' is one Nahuatl word for a whirlwind or dust devil. Since malinalli and malacatl both refer to inanimate objects, they would not ordinarily have distinct plural forms. I hope this is helpful. Fran From kread at condor.depaul.edu Mon Aug 16 20:37:27 1999 From: kread at condor.depaul.edu (Kay A. Read) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 14:37:27 -0600 Subject: AZ: Malinalli Message-ID: At 12:53 PM 8/16/99 -0600, you wrote: I believe David Carrasco might be getting his interpretation of malinalli from Alfredo Lopez Austin (and incorporating an s into the word simply because he's adapting it to English and a very lay audience unfamiliar with Nahuatl). I have no idea what he thinks of Bierhorst, but I know he admires Lopez Austin. Lopez Austin, I'm fairly sure (at least as sure as my memory serves me on some very past conversations with him) is getting the spinning idea from Frances' second etymological source (from malina) and some other mythological link, which I can't remember anymore. Alfredo believes Nahua theology said that powers spin up trees from the underworld to the upperworld and power the sun's journey across the daytime sky; and that nahualtin also draw power from spinning motions inherent in things like whirlpools and duststorms. His sources are a combination of linguistic analysis, pictorial codices, and both ancient and contemporary mythological sources. He's usually pretty good at listing his sources, although sometimes fails on a point or two. My experience with him is that he always can tell you where he's getting stuff if you ask him. His books "The Human Body," and "Myths of the Opossum" expand a bit on some of this. There are, I think, many good sources from which to argue the ideas of spinning and otherwise moving powers, whether this sounds New Age or not. The idea of spinning and moving powers also is not strange to other Native American traditions. Just because some adherents to New Age traditions borrow some of these ideas from other traditions (usually changing them in the process), does not mean that the traditions from which they are borrowing them from didn't think of them all by themselves (albeit in a different form). Kay Read > >> However, I have found a similar description in a passage in David >>Carrasco's _Religions of Mesoamerica_ where he states "Each of the >>realms...were permeated with supernatural powers circulating up and down the >>cosmic levels through spiral-shaped passages called 'malinallis'." >>I am sceptical because he does not quote any sources, and because he adds >>the english "s" to indicate plural. >>My question to those on the list more familiar with literary sources than I, >>is this: >>Are there any preconquest or colonial literary sources to suggest that the >>Mexica subscribed to this kind of "esoteric" beliefs? >> > > > >I think there may be two sources for this idea as expressed by David Carrasco. > >First is Bierhorst's controversial translation of the Cantares mexicanos >(Cantares Mexicanos: Songs of the Aztecs Translated froM the Nahuatl with >an Introduction and Commentary. Stanford University Press, 1985), where >Bierhorst makes a great to-do about ghosts and songs whirling up and down. >Bierhorst's interpretation of the Cantare seems to derive uncomfortably >from the whole, much-later Ghost Dance religion of North America, and B. >himself says there is precious little documentation for a similar tradition >in Mesoamerica. But he takes the very fact that the friar evangelists >missed it to be a sign that it was there and very, very covert. > >Bierhorst's translation and interpretation has been critically evaluated by >both Miguel Leon-Portilla and James Lockhart, and their critiques are worth >having a look at, since they are intelligently done from a wealth of >background knowledge. > >If Carrasco accepts Bierhorst's interpretation of the Cantares, he needs to >tell his readers where he gets the whirling pathways ideas and why he >accepts them. > >Source 2 is etymological. > >The noun malinalli refers to a twisted bunch of grass, and it is one of the >calendrical signs associated with the south in the 260-day tonalpohualli >(count of the days). As a calendrical sign, it is always associated with a >number from 1-13. > >The noun is derived from the transitive verb malina 'to twist or wind >something." When malina is used reflexively, it means for something to >twist itself, to wind, to spiral. > >Another transitive/reflexive verb also meaning 'to revolve or spin >something, to twist' is malacachoa, with the associated noun malacatl >'spindle, bobbin, or spiral'. > >Malacaehecatl 'spiral wind' is one Nahuatl word for a whirlwind or dust devil. > >Since malinalli and malacatl both refer to inanimate objects, they would >not ordinarily have distinct plural forms. > >I hope this is helpful. > >Fran > > From bcoon at montana.edu Wed Aug 18 20:25:12 1999 From: bcoon at montana.edu (Coon, Brad) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:25:12 -0600 Subject: Aztec ethobotany questions. Message-ID: Can anyone suggest a good work in English or Spanish preferably dealing = with Nahua ethnobotany. I am most=20 interested in the period at the time of contact but not exclusively so. I am particularly interested in one species. Luis Cabrera's book "Diccionario de Aztequismos" mentions a plant called 'mechoac=E1n' used = as a purgative. I would welcome any and all references to it particularly = in the Florentine Codex. Many thanks, Brad Coon bcoon at montana.edu From Huaxyacac at aol.com Wed Aug 18 22:05:31 1999 From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:05:31 -0600 Subject: Aztec ethobotany questions. Message-ID: Brad, Have you looked at Hern=E1ndez-- Historia natural de Nueva Espa=F1a. Univers= idad=20 Nacional Aut=F3noma de M=E9xico, Mexico City, 1959[ca.1577]? Although writte= n in=20 Spanish, he provides Nahuatl names for a lot of things. I've mainly looked a= t=20 his birds, not his plants. Alec Christensen From Huaxyacac at aol.com Thu Aug 19 16:25:09 1999 From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:25:09 -0600 Subject: Oaxacan place names Message-ID: A friend working on the coast of Oaxaca sent me the following query about the name Tututepec, which is a fairly basic one-- nicely enough, the place is known in Mixtec by the same name, Yucu dzaa. <> What I am not sure about is the variation in forms: obviously tutu- equals toto-, but could that reasonably have been transformed to tatal-? It's a bit easier for me to understand the change to toton-, since I know from experience that nasals can pop in and out. Totomixtlahuaca is one that I cannot easily parse. And totomi is a word that I have never seen-- I'm not sure what his sources were for that. In a later posting he asked about Miahuapan, which is often translated with "water" in the middle. How can we be sure that it is Miahua-a-pan, and not just Miahua-pan? Any feedback would be appreciated, both to satisfy my curiosity and improve his dissertation. Alec Christensen From karttu at nantucket.net Thu Aug 19 17:06:54 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:06:54 -0600 Subject: Oaxacan place names Message-ID: or what it's worth: The Nahuatl ixtlahuatl means 'plain, savanna, open country'. By adding locative -can to it, one gets a place name. And the final -n of -can tends to get dropped off. So this gives the -ixtlahuaca part. What kind of a plain? Toton- looks like 'warm, hot' to me. How about 'Warm Plain'? BUT, the final -n of toton(qui) wouldn't likely turn up as -m- intervocalically. Otomi-tl is the Nahuatl name for a particular ethnic group. It can't just pick up an initial t-. Toto-tl is the Nahuatl word for 'wild bird' (as opposed to totol-in 'domestic bird, turkey hen'). I wouldn't be inclined to just throw in a syllable-final nasal here just to make things work out. I can't see how anybody would come up with tatal- from totol- either, but of course if there is a mediating language with a really different phonology, one can't predict without a lot more knowledge. Lots of puzzles here. Fran From jvallier at ucla.edu Wed Aug 25 16:23:03 1999 From: jvallier at ucla.edu (Vallier) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:23:03 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl and music Message-ID: I'm an ethnomusicology grad student who will be studying Nahuatl this upcoming year. I'm interested in learning about the music of the Nahuas in both Mexico and the US (and anywhere else). If anyone can help me out by pointing me in the direction of some sources, whatever they may be, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks, John Vallier mailto:jvallier at ucla.edu ................................................ http://www.ethnogrooves.com From macswan at asu.edu Wed Aug 25 17:48:34 1999 From: macswan at asu.edu (Jeff MacSwan) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:48:34 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl imperatives Message-ID: Colegas: A friend just asked me for the imperative paradigm in Nahuatl, and I'm just to darn lazy to dig out my Nahuatl grammars, and figured that many of you would know off the top of your head. So how do you say You eat your tortilla (every day) (indicative) Eat your tortilla (imperative) We need second person singular and/or plural, and please identify the morphological structure of the verb as well as the particular Nahuatl variety. Many thanks!! Jeff From bcoon at montana.edu Wed Aug 25 20:57:49 1999 From: bcoon at montana.edu (Coon, Brad) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:57:49 -0600 Subject: Aztec ethobotany questions. Message-ID: Apologies for the delay in replying. Thank you for the citation, I will give it a try. Brad Coon bcoon at montana.edu > -----Original Message----- > From: Huaxyacac at aol.com [SMTP:Huaxyacac at aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:07 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Aztec ethobotany questions. > > Brad, > Have you looked at Hern=E1ndez-- Historia natural de Nueva Espa=F1a. > Univers= > idad=20 > Nacional Aut=F3noma de M=E9xico, Mexico City, 1959[ca.1577]? Although > writte= > n in=20 > Spanish, he provides Nahuatl names for a lot of things. I've mainly looked > a= > t=20 > his birds, not his plants. > Alec Christensen From karttu at nantucket.net Thu Aug 26 01:17:34 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 19:17:34 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl imperatives Message-ID: >Colegas: > >A friend just asked me for the imperative paradigm in Nahuatl, and I'm just >to darn lazy to dig out my Nahuatl grammars, and figured that many of you >would know off the top of your head. So how do you say > >You eat your tortilla (every day) (indicative) >Eat your tortilla (imperative) > >We need second person singular and/or plural, and please identify the >morphological structure of the verb as well as the particular Nahuatl >variety. > >Many thanks!! > >Jeff I think that if you want this sort of information and know where to find it, you shouldn't announce that you are too lazy and ask someone else to do the work for you and your friend. Nahuatl has a first-second-third-person, singular and plural "optative" rather than just a second-person singular and plural imperative. Not only are there optative forms for all persons, but there are present and past optative forms. The second-person is characterized by having the prefix xi- rather than singular ti- and plural am-/an-. Moreover, Nahuatl has a customary present (for stuff like "every day") that is different from the present indicative. If you want to know more, the place to look is Andrews's Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, pp. 383-4. From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com Thu Aug 26 06:58:42 1999 From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 00:58:42 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl and music Message-ID: To those interested in music of Pre-Columbian Mexico, a source is the musical group Tribu. They have studied with various tribal groups in Mexico. Some of the members are ethnomusicologists, Agustin Pimentel in particular. The group reproduces archeological instruments (huehuetl, teponaztli, tlapitzalli, etc.) They have many recordings on CD, but they always state that their music is "new" music with ancient instruments because of the lack of pre-contact music being transcribed by the Spanish authorities of the times. However, they have researched "living" tribes in Mexico also. One of their members, Ramiro Ramirez, is an Otomi and plays some of his tribal music when they perform. They tour in California usually in Novermber and April. The rest of the time they play outside the National Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City. You can correspond in Spanish with them at this email address: tribu at mail.internet.com.mx Buena suerte, Henry Vasquez From marisol at tiscalinet.it Thu Aug 26 09:14:55 1999 From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 03:14:55 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl and music Message-ID: John, Last year I gave a small lecture on Mexican pre-hispanic music and dance at the University of Helsinki (during Frances Karttunen's intensive Nahuatl course). The sources I used for my presentation were numerous, but the main texts were HISTORIA GENERAL DEL ARTE MEXICANO Volumen XI Danzas y Bailes Populares (includes also music) by Electra L. Momprade and Tonatiuh Gutierrez Editorial HERMES, 1981 Mexico LA MUSICA POPULAR DE MEXICO by Jas Reuter Panorama Editorial, 1980 (but there surely are newer editions) Mexico If I can think of other worthwhile sources, I will let you know. Susana Moraleda Director and Choreographer Mexican Folklore Group "LOS RANCHEROS" Rome, Italy -----Original Message----- From: Vallier To: Multiple recipients of list Date: mercoled� 25 agosto 1999 18.25 Subject: Nahuatl and music >I'm an ethnomusicology grad student who will be studying Nahuatl this >upcoming year. I'm interested in learning about the music of the Nahuas in >both Mexico and the US (and anywhere else). If anyone can help me out by >pointing me in the direction of some sources, whatever they may be, I would >greatly appreciate it. > >Thanks, > >John Vallier > >mailto:jvallier at ucla.edu > >................................................ >http://www.ethnogrooves.com > > From jvallier at ucla.edu Thu Aug 26 15:18:33 1999 From: jvallier at ucla.edu (Vallier) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:18:33 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl and music Message-ID: Susana, Thanks for the references. They should help out quite a bit. Sincerely, John >John, > >Last year I gave a small lecture on Mexican pre-hispanic music and dance at >the University of Helsinki (during Frances Karttunen's intensive Nahuatl >course). > >The sources I used for my presentation were numerous, but the main texts >were > >HISTORIA GENERAL DEL ARTE MEXICANO >Volumen XI >Danzas y Bailes Populares (includes also music) >by >Electra L. Momprade and Tonatiuh Gutierrez >Editorial HERMES, 1981 >Mexico > >LA MUSICA POPULAR DE MEXICO >by Jas Reuter >Panorama Editorial, 1980 (but there surely are newer editions) >Mexico > >If I can think of other worthwhile sources, I will let you know. > >Susana Moraleda >Director and Choreographer >Mexican Folklore Group "LOS RANCHEROS" >Rome, Italy > >-----Original Message----- >From: Vallier >To: Multiple recipients of list >Date: mercoled=EC 25 agosto 1999 18.25 >Subject: Nahuatl and music > > >>I'm an ethnomusicology grad student who will be studying Nahuatl this >>upcoming year. I'm interested in learning about the music of the Nahuas in >>both Mexico and the US (and anywhere else). If anyone can help me out by >>pointing me in the direction of some sources, whatever they may be, I woul= d >>greatly appreciate it. >> >>Thanks, >> >>John Vallier >> >>mailto:jvallier at ucla.edu >> >>................................................ >>http://www.ethnogrooves.com >> >> From Chukol at aol.com Thu Aug 26 16:51:59 1999 From: Chukol at aol.com (Chukol at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:51:59 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl and music Message-ID: Can anyone tell me whether any tapes (preferably language, but even music would be acceptable) on Nahuatl are available for purchase? I am about to begin self-study in the language (I live in Saudi Arabia) and would like to hear the language in connected speech. So far my search here in the US has been in vain. Thanks Chuck Oliver From mdmorris at indiana.edu Sun Aug 1 12:48:25 1999 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark Morris) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 06:48:25 -0600 Subject: Tlaxcala Colonial Records Pagina Ejemplar Message-ID: Nocniuhtzintzinhuan, In following-up on my inquiry about interest in digitized colonial documents, I've posted a sample of a scanned page. It is a big file; in fact, my browser opened it in QuickTime. It's web address is: http://php.indiana.edu/~mdmorris/apst.tif From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Mon Aug 2 18:20:46 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 12:20:46 -0600 Subject: AZ: Calpolli and exchange Message-ID: Greetings: "Ah, the old questions and the old answers...There's nothing like =E9m" ..Samuel Beckett Does any have any thoughts on calpolli, lineage? clan? etc. etc. and moreover what evidence do we have to make said arguement? I've read a bunch of Pedro Carrasco and Eliz. Brumfiel, and even some van Zantwyck (tho' none of this is handy as I'm travelling) and I seem to recall that there were calpollis with both commoner and noble lineages in them. Does anyone know any thing about exchange between calpoltin ? By exchange I mean sponsorship of festivals, gift-giving, commodity exchange, and of course marriage? Much obliged as always, Richard Haly From dfrye at umich.edu Mon Aug 2 19:09:24 1999 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 13:09:24 -0600 Subject: AZ: Calpolli and exchange Message-ID: To the side of this subject, is it true that the plural of calpolli (as an inanimate noun) is simply calpolli, not the often-sighted 'calpultin'? I'd appreciate a line from one of our experts. -David Frye (U-Michigan) On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Richard Haly wrote: > calpollis ... calpoltin ... From Ian.Robertson at asu.edu Mon Aug 2 20:37:42 1999 From: Ian.Robertson at asu.edu (Ian.Robertson at asu.edu) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 14:37:42 -0600 Subject: AZ: Calpolli and exchange Message-ID: Hello David, Although not one of the list's experts I think you are right; my understanding is that 'calpoltin' does exist as a word, but refers to individuals belonging to a calpolli, not to more than one calpolli. Cheers, Ian Ian G. Robertson Department of Anthropology Arizona State University Tempe, AZ 85287-2402 Ian.Robertson at asu.edu On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, David L. Frye wrote: > To the side of this subject, is it true that the plural of calpolli (as an > inanimate noun) is simply calpolli, not the often-sighted 'calpultin'? I'd > appreciate a line from one of our experts. > > -David Frye (U-Michigan) > > On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Richard Haly wrote: > > > calpollis ... calpoltin ... > > > From ted at teddanger.com Mon Aug 2 20:52:01 1999 From: ted at teddanger.com (Ted Danger) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 14:52:01 -0600 Subject: AZ: Calpolli and exchange Message-ID: Does Cal Poly have an anthro dept.? Ted Danger Ian.Robertson at asu.edu wrote: > Hello David, > > Although not one of the list's experts I think you are right; my understanding > is that 'calpoltin' does exist as a word, but refers to individuals belonging > to a calpolli, not to more than one calpolli. > > Cheers, Ian > > Ian G. Robertson > Department of Anthropology > Arizona State University > Tempe, AZ 85287-2402 > Ian.Robertson at asu.edu > > On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, David L. Frye wrote: > > > To the side of this subject, is it true that the plural of calpolli (as an > > inanimate noun) is simply calpolli, not the often-sighted 'calpultin'? I'd > > appreciate a line from one of our experts. > > > > -David Frye (U-Michigan) > > > > On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Richard Haly wrote: > > > > > calpollis ... calpoltin ... > > > > > > From henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de Tue Aug 3 08:57:05 1999 From: henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 02:57:05 -0600 Subject: AZ: Calpolli and exchange Message-ID: James Lockhart devotes a whole chapter of his "The Nahuas After the Conquest" to the calpolli, using a variety of interesting sources. I am also under the assumption that calpoltin is the plural of the inhabitants of the calpolli, while the term for the social unit does not have a plural form. BTW the /o/ is long, I think. Henry > Does any have any thoughts on calpolli, lineage? clan? etc. etc. and > moreover what evidence do we have to make said arguement? [Snip] From henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de Tue Aug 3 12:19:37 1999 From: henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 06:19:37 -0600 Subject: Tlaxcala Colonial Records Pagina Ejemplar Message-ID: Hi, Mark > In following-up on my inquiry about interest in digitized colonial > documents, I've posted a sample of a scanned page. It is a big file; in > fact, my browser opened it in QuickTime. It's web address is: > http://php.indiana.edu/~mdmorris/apst.tif Why not compress it into a gif or jpg - File? It will be viewable in a browser and faster to download (gif is better for b/w, jpeg better for half-tones) Cheers, Henry From melesan at pacbell.net Sat Aug 7 04:55:59 1999 From: melesan at pacbell.net (Mel Sanchez) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:55:59 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: Some list members expressed an interest in an article of some 15 misconceptions about the Aztecs. It can be found in the journal Wicazo Sa Review, Spring 1995, Volume XI, No. 1 by Associate Professor at the Univ of Texas, Austin, Dr. Arnold Carlos Vento. The title of the article is Aztec Myths and Cosmology: Historical Religious Misinterpretations. The 15 misinterpretations, according to the article include: 1) polytheism among native cultures, 2) the concept of Hell, Mikltan, 3) fatalism 4) native belief of the Spanish as Gods, 5) Ketzalkoatl as a Messiah, 6) imperialism 7)slavery, 8) chiomoztok as the seven cities of gold or Aztlan, 9) cannibalism, 10) human sacrifice by bloodthirsty priests, 11)drunkenness, 12) myth of the debased woman, 13) myth of Aztlan in the US, 14) European etymology of the word America, and 15 ) Nahuatl as a name for the national language or culture. Any discussion and enlightenment for me on behalf of any scholars generally, or specifically, after reading the article, would be appreciated by me. Since UT, Austin has such a high reputation in Mesoamerican studies, I feel it would be strange for them to hire somebody with totally strange ideas. But I'm no great scholar. Thanks, Mel Sanchez From nahualli at highfiber.com Sat Aug 7 14:04:20 1999 From: nahualli at highfiber.com (Brant Gardner) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 08:04:20 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: [Mel] Some list members expressed an interest in an article of some 15 misconceptions about the Aztecs. It can be found in the journal Wicazo Sa Review, Spring 1995, Volume XI, No. 1 by Associate Professor at the Univ of Texas, Austin, Dr. Arnold Carlos Vento. The title of the article is Aztec Myths and Cosmology: Historical Religious Misinterpretations. The 15 misinterpretations, according to the article include: 1) polytheism among native cultures, 2) the concept of Hell, Mikltan, 3) fatalism 4) native belief of the Spanish as Gods, 5) Ketzalkoatl as a Messiah, 6) imperialism 7)slavery, 8) chiomoztok as the seven cities of gold or Aztlan, 9) cannibalism, 10) human sacrifice by bloodthirsty priests, 11)drunkenness, 12) myth of the debased woman, 13) myth of Aztlan in the US, 14) European etymology of the word America, and 15 ) Nahuatl as a name for the national language or culture. Any discussion and enlightenment for me on behalf of any scholars generally, or specifically, after reading the article, would be appreciated by me. [Brant] Of course it doesn't do justice to an article to respond to titles only, but since I haven't read the original, that is all I can go on. On some of these I have no information because I haven't done much work on the topics, but what I understand I will share: 1) polytheism among native cultures, I am not at all sure why this would be listed as a historical misinterpretation. I can only guess that the author must be defending some type of monotheism on the basis of Nezahualcoyotl's prime god. Polytheism is a system of belief in more than one god, and it is difficult to imagine that the many named deities could be easily dismissed. To my knowledge, there is no known pre-contact culture that did not have multiple deities. In Tenochtitlan mythology there is the same evidence for stories moving across named deities that is also seen in ancient Greece - which was also polytheistic. Nezahualcoyotl's "theology" has the markings of a late codifying/regularizing of mythology, something enabled by the nature of the city states. 2) the concept of Hell, Mikltan, I would agree that equating Mictlan with the Christian Hell is an oversimplification, and leads to misconceptions. 4) native belief of the Spanish as Gods, This depends upon the definition of "gods." The Florentine Codex uses "teotl" as a description of the Spaniards. The blacks with them were "teucacatzactic" which I understand to be black gods or dirty gods - with reference to their dark skin. The Nahua word we translate as god is "teotl," but that doesn't mean that there is a direct semantic correspondence between the two ideas. So it may be true that the natives did not worship the Spaniards, but the best evidence suggests that "teotl" was applied to them. I can't speak to the Maya perceptions. 5) Ketzalkoatl as a Messiah, I have spent years tracing this one down, and the Quetzalcoatl/Messiah correlation is entirely dependent upon post-conquest Spanish (and later others) misinterpretations of the native myths. 9) cannibalism, I suppose there is sensationalist cannibalism, where humans are used as dietary supplements. In that sense I don't think it existed. However, there is anthropologically understood cannibalism, which is part of a sacred rite (as opposed to lunch!). That did exist. I would be surprised if anyone were to seriously deny that this type of cannibalism existed. 10) human sacrifice by bloodthirsty priests, This one is kind of telling by the modifier. Human sacrifice, yes. Bloodthirsty priests? We are stuck on definitions again. They were operating completely within their religious system. It is impossible to reliably deny that there were sacrifices. That they were the result of a degenerate society is certainly deniable. 11)drunkenness, I am not sure what this one refers to, but the very strong penalties for drunkenness suggest that it was a known problem, and one sufficiently severe to warrant severe penalties. One may presume that the penalties prevent the breach, but it never seems to be so. Laws come after the fact, in an attempt to control problems. Therefore, I would say that drunkenness must have been a problem, albeit one they were attempting to control. I have no comments on the others. ______________________ Brant Gardner Albuquerque, NM nahualli at highfiber.com www.highfiber.com\~nahualli From jcarlson at deans.umd.edu Sat Aug 7 16:46:28 1999 From: jcarlson at deans.umd.edu (John B. Carlson) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 10:46:28 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: Dear Mel Sanchez, You wrote to the group: Some list members expressed an interest in an article of some 15 misconceptions about the Aztecs. It can be found in the journal Wicazo Sa Review, Spring 1995, Volume XI, No. 1 by Associate Professor at the Univ of Texas, Austin, Dr. Arnold Carlos Vento. The title of the article is Aztec Myths and Cosmology: Historical Religious Misinterpretations.... Since UT, Austin has such a high reputation in Mesoamerican studies, I feel it would be strange for them to hire somebody with totally strange ideas. But I'm no great scholar. ********* There are two real misconceptions in your last paragraph. First, academia is just full of individuals with strange ideas, and Second, you might be a better scholar that this guy. That remains to be seen. The topic (paper) sounds to me like a polemic, but we would all have to read it before we could comment. I would be interested to see a copy. John Carlson From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Aug 7 18:09:28 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 12:09:28 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, Brant Gardner wrote: > [Mel] > Some list members expressed an interest in an article of some 15 > misconceptions about the Aztecs. It can be found in the journal Wicazo > Sa Review, Spring 1995, Volume XI, No. 1 by Associate Professor at the > Univ of Texas, Austin, Dr. Arnold Carlos Vento. The title of the > article is Aztec Myths and Cosmology: Historical Religious > Misinterpretations. The 15 misinterpretations, according to the article > include: 1) polytheism among native cultures, 2) the concept of Hell, > Mikltan, 3) fatalism 4) native belief of the Spanish as Gods, 5) > Ketzalkoatl as a Messiah, 6) imperialism 7)slavery, 8) chiomoztok as the > seven cities of gold or Aztlan, 9) cannibalism, 10) human sacrifice by > bloodthirsty priests, 11)drunkenness, 12) myth of the debased woman, 13) > myth of Aztlan in the US, 14) European etymology of the word America, > and 15 ) Nahuatl as a name for the national language or culture. > > Any discussion and enlightenment for me on behalf of any scholars > generally, or specifically, after reading the article, would be > appreciated by me. > > [Brant] > Of course it doesn't do justice to an article to respond to titles only, but > since I haven't read the original, that is all I can go on. On some of these > I have no information because I haven't done much work on the topics, but > what I understand I will share: Michael: I looked for the review but couldn't find it here. > > 1) polytheism among native cultures, > > I am not at all sure why this would be listed as a historical > misinterpretation. I can only guess that the author must be defending some > type of monotheism on the basis of Nezahualcoyotl's prime god. Polytheism is > a system of belief in more than one god, and it is difficult to imagine that > the many named deities could be easily dismissed. To my knowledge, there is > no known pre-contact culture that did not have multiple deities. > > In Tenochtitlan mythology there is the same evidence for stories moving > across named deities that is also seen in ancient Greece - which was also > polytheistic. Nezahualcoyotl's "theology" has the markings of a late > codifying/regularizing of mythology, something enabled by the nature of the > city states. > Michael: But not finding the article doesn't stop me from making some generalizations. It sounds to me like the author is doing some heavy-duty revisionism, using a fundamentalist Christian mindset. As far as humans go, monotheism is a rather rare bird. Polytheism is the main course. James Hillman has a wonderful exposition of polytheism in his _Revisioning Psychology_. A very worthy read. > 2) the concept of Hell, Mikltan, > > I would agree that equating Mictlan with the Christian Hell is an > oversimplification, and leads to misconceptions. Michael: I agree absolutely. On the other hand, I once translated a description of Mictlan for Brant and found that I would certainly prefer Hawaii to Mictlan. > 4) native belief of the Spanish as Gods, > > This depends upon the definition of "gods." The Florentine Codex uses > "teotl" as a description of the Spaniards. The blacks with them were > "teucacatzactic" which I understand to be black gods or dirty gods - with > reference to their dark skin. > > The Nahua word we translate as god is "teotl," but that doesn't mean that > there is a direct semantic correspondence between the two ideas. Michael: Good point. Christianity tends to simplify the entire religious experience, and avoids many aspects to the big picture. > 5) Ketzalkoatl as a Messiah, > > I have spent years tracing this one down, and the Quetzalcoatl/Messiah > correlation is entirely dependent upon post-conquest Spanish (and later > others) misinterpretations of the native myths. Michael: shore nuff. > > 9) cannibalism, > > I suppose there is sensationalist cannibalism, where humans are used as > dietary supplements. In that sense I don't think it existed. However, there > is anthropologically understood cannibalism, which is part of a sacred rite > (as opposed to lunch!). That did exist. I would be surprised if anyone were > to seriously deny that this type of cannibalism existed. > Michael: Well, they tried...even here on this list. Bless their hearts. > 10) human sacrifice by bloodthirsty priests, > > This one is kind of telling by the modifier. Human sacrifice, yes. > Bloodthirsty priests? We are stuck on definitions again. They were operating > completely within their religious system. It is impossible to reliably deny > that there were sacrifices. That they were the result of a degenerate > society is certainly deniable. Michael: Excellent point! > I have no comments on the others. Michael: I have plenty, but I'll spare y'all. Michael McCafferty C.E.L.T. 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu From melesan at pacbell.net Sat Aug 7 23:13:24 1999 From: melesan at pacbell.net (Mel Sanchez) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 17:13:24 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: Nice to see some response to my query on the Vento article. First of all, I don't consider myself more scholarly than Dr. Vento; I am a mere high school teacher, teaching every day with little time for hard core research; and, I don't feel that all college profs are people with strange ideas. I just think that Dr. Vento has some ideas that are way off the beaten path of what I've read from other profs. Still, I'm not ready to dismiss what he has to say because I don't know and would like some imput from some other scholars. Secondly, I don't know if this journal is still in publication so I'd like to take maybe one portion at a time and see what you scholars have to say about each point. If discussion is encouraging and interest doesn't wane, we can continue til all points are discussed. Here's his basic premise: "they(Spaniards) saw the provincial West producing a kind of particularism, a fondness for the physical manifestations of the divinity, a desire to draw near the object of worhsip and possess it. thus Western piety was less transcendental, more familiar, materialistic, seeing the human nature of Christianity instead of the divine." He later states: "When they saw monumental works of sculpture with images that were incomprehensible to them, they quickly projected their own view of reality and levied accusations of polytheism, formerly levied at them by Jews and Moslems, on a world they could not understand." Particlularly about polytheism he asserts: ". . .the cosmogony of (mesoamericans) is seen through science, i.e., astronomy and mathematics. thus , they did not have a religion as we know religion today., i.e., with dogmatic theology." Their view "is more similar to ancient Eastern cultures. ...autochthonous holy men known by the Spanish as pagan priests were, in fact, astronomers and sages, who were able to read the esoteric and abstract symbolism of the writings of codices and sculptured images." much later he writes: "They understood the planetary cycles, the interrelationships between animals, plants and human ecologically balanced in cyclical pattern nurtured by the enery of the One Supreme Force of Zenteotol. Thus, to refer to mutiple gods is to project a medieval Western Christian perception of reality as seen through the worship of hundreds of saints, virgins and trinities." Any comments on this point of Dr. Vento? The next point would be Miktlan as Hell. TAke care all, Mel From CCBtlevine at aol.com Sat Aug 7 23:28:17 1999 From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 17:28:17 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: In a message dated 8/7/99 9:05:00 AM EST, nahualli at highfiber.com writes: << 4) native belief of the Spanish as Gods, This depends upon the definition of "gods." The Florentine Codex uses "teotl" as a description of the Spaniards. The blacks with them were "teucacatzactic" which I understand to be black gods or dirty gods - with reference to their dark skin. >> Simeon's dictionary shows cacatzac an adjective meaning black, not dirty. It shows cacatzactli for a black person. I am not certain of the root. But, it may come from cacahuatl, meaning cacao. I can't find anything that would indicate, in Nahuatl, that the root has anything to do with dirt. Do you know of anything? In other words, they, the black spaniards, would seem to be the chocolate colored gods rather than the dirty gods. Perhaps another myth should be destroyed. From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 8 04:54:35 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 22:54:35 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: >>From this little bit I get the sense that there is some PC/New Age revisionism going on here based on a lack of understanding of Nahuatl. Zenteotl is doubtfully from Cen "whole, all" but from Centli/cintli, maize. Richard Haly ---------- >From: Mel Sanchez >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: article on Aztecs >Date: Sat, Aug 07, 1999, 17:14 > > "They understood the planetary cycles, the interrelationships between > animals, plants and human ecologically balanced in cyclical pattern > nurtured by the enery of the One Supreme Force of Zenteotol. Thus, to > refer to mutiple gods is to project a medieval Western Christian > perception of reality as seen through the worship of hundreds of saints, > virgins and trinities." From CCBtlevine at aol.com Sun Aug 8 05:43:56 1999 From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:43:56 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: In a message dated 8/7/99 11:55:17 PM EST, rhaly at ix.netcom.com writes: << From this little bit I get the sense that there is some PC/New Age revisionism going on here based on a lack of understanding of Nahuatl. Zenteotl is doubtfully from Cen "whole, all" but from Centli/cintli, maize. Richard Haly >> There is Centeotl, Ometeotl, yehecatl, naollin, macuilteotl. I wonder if there is some sort of a pattern here? I wonder if there is support for the belief that centeotl comes from centli except for the similarity of names. From campbel at indiana.edu Sun Aug 8 05:59:00 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:59:00 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 1999 CCBtlevine at aol.com wrote: There's no myth to be destroyed on the semantics of "catzahuac" and related words. The verb stem is "catza:hua" and a perusal of the related words indicates that the color of 'dark' or 'black' (for anything) was intermingled with 'to get dirty'. It's not clear that the Nahuatl speakers made any value judgment about the relationship, but they *did* recognize that something that gets dirty looks more black than white. Molina (from whom Simeon benefited to a high degree), was an on-the-spot observer and participator in using the language, so I have included his citations at the end of this message. On the relationship of "cacatzac" and "cacahuatl", since "cacatzac" is a reduplicated form of "catzahua", all they share is "ca". Well, crows ("ca:ca:lo:tl") are black and there is no likely derivation there either. Seriously, we can't throw away pieces of words that "no nos convienen" and relate form and meaning in a way that doesn't take into account the 'building blocks' of the language and their variations. In other words, we need to look at a larger piece of the spiderweb of Nahuatl. > Simeon's dictionary shows cacatzac an adjective meaning black, not dirty. It > shows cacatzactli for a black person. I am not certain of the root. But, it > may come from cacahuatl, meaning cacao. I can't find anything that would > indicate, in Nahuatl, that the root has anything to do with dirt. Do you > know of anything? In other words, they, the black spaniards, would seem to > be the chocolate colored gods rather than the dirty gods. Perhaps another > myth should be destroyed. > Best regards, Joe p.s. the first form is a regularized spelling and the {{...}} form is Molina's literal spelling. M5 = 1555 edition M1 = 1571 (Spanish/Mexicano) M2 = 1571 (Mexicano/Spanish) The following numbers refer to location by folio. acatzahualiztli. {{acatzaualiztli}} limpieza. 55m-156r-12 acatzahualiztli. {{acatzaualiztli}} limpieza. 71m1-78-14 cacatzac. {{cacatzac}} negro de guinea. 55m-180r-14 cacatzac. {{cacatzac}} negro de guinea. 71m1-89-16 cacatzac. {{cacatzac}} hombre negro, o negra. 71m2-10-4-06-2 cacatzactli. {{cacatzactli}} hombre negro, o negra. 71m2-10-4-07-2 catzactia (ni). {{catzactia =ni}} ensuziarse. 55m-106r-8 catzactia (ni). {{catzactia =ni}} ensuziarse. 71m1-55-10 catzactia (ni). {{catzactia =ni=onicatzactiac. vel. onicatzactix}} pararse suzio. 71m2-12-3-42-2 catzactic. {{catzactic}} hosco bazo en color. 55m-142v-11 catzactic. {{catzactic}} morena cosa baza. 55m-176r-14 catzactic. {{catzactic}} suzia cosa. 55m-197v-19 catzactic. {{catzactic}} suzio por no estar lauado. 55m-197v-19 catzactic. {{catzactic}} hosco bazo en color. 71m1-72-13 catzactic. {{catzactic}} morena cosa baza. 71m1-87-15 catzactic. {{catzactic}} suzia cosa. 71m1-111-20 catzactic. {{catzactic}} suzio por no estar lauado. 71m1-100-20 catzactic. {{catzactic}} cosa suzia. 71m2-12-3-43-2 catzactilia (nitla). {{catzactilia =nitla}} ensuziar algo. 55m-106r-8 catzactilia (nitla). {{catzactilia =nitla}} ensuziar algo. 71m1-55-10 catzactilia (nitla). {{catzactilia =nitla=onitlacatzactili}} ensuziar algo. 71m2-12-3-44-2 catzactililli (tla-invert.2). {{tlacatzactililli}} ensuziada cosa. 55m-106r-8 catzactililli (tla-invert.2). {{tlacatzactililli}} ensuziada cosa. 71m1-55-10 catzactiliztil. {{catzactiliztil}} suziedad. 55m-197v-19 catzactiliztli. {{catzactiliztli}} suziedad. 71m1-111-20 catzactiliztli. {{catzactiliztli}} suziedad. 71m2-12-4-01-2 catzahua (ni). {{catzaua =ni}} ensuziarse. 55m-106r-8 catzahua (ni). {{catzaua =ni}} ensuziarse. 71m1-55-10 catzahua (nino). {{catzaua =nino=oninocatzauh}} ensuziarse. 71m2-12-4-03-2 catzahua (ni). {{catzaua =ni=onicatzauac. vel. onicatzauh}} pararse suzio. 71m2-12-4-02-2 catzahua (nite). {{catzaua =nite=onitecatzauh}} ensuziar a otro. 71m2-12-4-04-2 catzahua (nitla). {{catzaua =nitla}} ensuziar algo. 55m-106r-8 catzahua (nitla). {{catzaua =nitla}} estragar. 55m-119v-9 catzahua (nitla). {{catzaua =nitla}} ensuziar algo. 71m1-55-10 catzahua (nitla). {{catzaua =nitla}} estragar. 71m1-61-11 catzahua (nitla). {{busca estragar}} percudir. 71m1-95-17 catzahuac. {{catzauac}} suzia cosa. 55m-197v-19 catzahuac. {{catzauac}} suzio por no estar lauado. 55m-197v-19 catzahuac. {{catzauac}} suzia cosa. 71m1-111-20 catzahuac. {{catzauac}} suzio por no estar lauado. 71m1-100-20 catzahuac. {{catzauac}} cosa suzia. 71m2-12-4-05-2 catzahuac (amo -invert.2). {{amocatzauac}} limpia cosa. 71m1-78-14 catzahuac (amo-invert.2). {{amo catzauac}} limpia cosa. 55m-156r-12 catzahualiztli. {{catzaualiztli}} estrago. 55m-119v-9 catzahualiztli. {{catzaualiztli}} suziedad. 55m-197v-19 catzahualiztli. {{catzaualiztli}} estrago. 71m1-61-11 catzahualiztli. {{catzaualiztli}} suziedad. 71m1-111-20 catzahualiztli. {{catzaualiztli}} suziedad. 71m2-12-4-06-2 catzahualli (tla-invert.2). {{tlacatzaualli}} ensuziada cosa. 71m1-55-10 catzahuani (tla-invert.2). {{tlacatzauani}} estragador. 55m-119v-9 catzahuani (tla-invert.2). {{tlacatzauani}} ensuziador. 71m1-55-10 catzahuani (tla-invert.2). {{tlacatzauani}} estragador. 71m1-61-11 catzauh (te-invert.2). {{tecatzauh}} cosa que ensuzia. 55m-056v-4 catzauh (te-invert.2). {{tecatzauh}} cosa que ensuzia. 71m1-31-6 catzauh (te-invert.2). {{tecatzauh}} cosa que ensuzia a otro. 71m2-092-1-21-16 catzauhtli (tla-invert.2). {{tlacatzauhtli}} ensuziada cosa. 55m-106r-8 catzauhtli (tla-invert.2). {{tlacatzauhtli}} ensuziada cosa. 71m1-55-10 catzauhtli (tla-invert.2). {{tlacatzauhtli}} estragado. 71m1-61-11 ixcatzahuac (n). {{ixcatzauac =n=onixcatzauac}} tener suzia la cara, o la haz. 71m2-44-4-21-8 toacatzauhtli. {{toacatzauhtli}} estragado. 55m-119v-9 From campbel at indiana.edu Sun Aug 8 06:15:09 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 00:15:09 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: Part of what Richard was basing his claim on (other than knowledge of the culture) -- just the mechanics of the language -- is that "cem/cen" 'whole, all' never alternates with "cim/cin", but "centli/cintli" 'maize' is fairly common. Sahagun's material given at the end of this message should leave no doubt. Best regards, Joe On Sat, 7 Aug 1999 CCBtlevine at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/7/99 11:55:17 PM EST, rhaly at ix.netcom.com writes: > > << From this little bit I get the sense that there is some PC/New Age > revisionism going on here based on a lack of understanding of Nahuatl. > Zenteotl is doubtfully from Cen "whole, all" but from Centli/cintli, maize. > > Richard Haly >> > > There is Centeotl, Ometeotl, yehecatl, naollin, macuilteotl. I wonder if > there is some sort of a pattern here? I wonder if there is support for the > belief that centeotl comes from centli except for the similarity of names. > centeotl** 1. otlacatqui *centeotl*, atliayahuican. cinteotl was born in the rain-mist (b.2 f.14 p.238). 2. yecoc, *centeotl*. cinteotl has arrived (b.2 f.14 p.239). cicinteo** 3. auh in icuac i, motenehua calonohuac, cali onohuac: yehica ca zan cali zan techachan in mahuiztililoya *cicinteo*.. and when this was done, it was called calonoac, "there hath been resting in the houses," because it was only in the houses, only in each person's house, that honors were paid the maize gods. (b.2 f.2 p.62). cinteoanazque** 4. niman ic ompehua, in inmilpan, *cinteoanazque*,. then they departed to their fields, to get cinteotl. (b.2 f.2 p.62). cinteococopi** 5. mitoaya *cinteococopi*,. it used to be called cinteococopi. (b.11 f.27 p.282). cinteootl** 6. in iztac *cinteootl* iteopan: oncan miquia in mamalti, zan yehuantin in xixiyoti:. the temple of the white cinteotl: there captives died, only those with skin sores. (b.2 f.11 p.184). 7. in cinteopan: oncan icaca, oncan pialoya in ixiptla *cinteootl*:. the temple of cinteotl: there stood, there was guarded the image of cinteotl. (b.2 f.12 p.187). 8. oncan miquia in ixiptla *cinteootl*, cemilhuitl.. there the impersonator of cinteotl died, by day. (b.2 f.12 p.187). 9. in xochicalco, oncan miquia in iztac *cinteootl*, ihuan tlatlauhqui cinteootl, ihuan no yehuatl in atla tonan.. xochicalco: there died [the impersonators of] white cinteotl and red cinteotl, and also that one [impersonating the goddess] atlatonan. (b.2 f.12 p.191). 10. in xochicalco, oncan miquia in iztac cinteootl, ihuan tlatlauhqui *cinteootl*, ihuan no yehuatl in atla tonan.. xochicalco: there died [the impersonators of] white cinteotl and red cinteotl, and also that one [impersonating the goddess] atlatonan. (b.2 f.12 p.191). cinteopan** 11. auh in ye teotlac, ompa quimoncacahua, *cinteopan* in iteopan chicome coatl:. and after sundown they left each of [the foods] there at cinteopan, the temple of chicome coatl. (b.2 f.2 p.62). 12. auh no ihuan, in cintli, xinachtli yez: ompa conitquia, *cinteopan*, in iteopan chicome coatl,. and furthermore, they bore to cinteopan, the temple of chicome coatl, the maize which was to be seed. (b.2 f.2 p.63). 13. auh ye ic contlecahuia in *cinteopan*,. and thereupon they took her up to the temple of cinteotl. (b.2 f.5 p.105). 14. *cinteopan*.. the temple of cinteotl (b.2 f.12 p.186). 15. in *cinteopan*: oncan miquia in ixiptla chicome coatl, cihuatl, zan yohualtica:. the temple of cinteotl: there the impersonator of chicome coatl died, at night only. (b.2 f.12 p.186). 16. *cinteopan*.. the temple of cinteotl (b.2 f.12 p.187). 17. in *cinteopan*: oncan icaca, oncan pialoya in ixiptla cinteootl:. the temple of cinteotl: there stood, there was guarded the image of cinteotl. (b.2 f.12 p.187). cinteotl** 18. auh cem ixtli quitequi acatl oncan quitemitia, quitentiquetza, in izquitlamantli, ixpan onoc *cinteotl*:. and they cut a section of reed; there they filled it, they crammed it with everything [which] lay before cinteotl. (b.2 f.2 p.62). 19. niman ye ic quinhuica in ichpopochti, quimamatihui in cintli, no *cinteotl* motocayotiaya:. thereupon they accompanied the young girls as they carried on their backs the dried maize, also called cinteotl. (b.2 f.2 p.63). 20. itoca, *cinteotl*,. his name was cinteotl. (b.2 f.7 p.120). 21. conixnamictimoquetza, mec hualmocuepa, itlan hualmoquetza in iconeuh in *cinteotl*:. she placed herself facing [the god]; then she turned about; she placed herself by her son, cinteotl. (b.2 f.7 p.121). 22. mec yauh in ompa ocanato iconeuh: quihuicatiuh in iconeuh, in *cinteotl* ano itztlacoliuhqui:. then she went where [earlier] she had gone to get her son; she went to bring her son, cinteotl or itztlacoliuhqui. (b.2 f.7 p.122). 23. iztac *cinteotl* iteopan.. the temple of the white cinteotl (b.2 f.11 p.184). 24. ahzoc achi quimotquitiz, quipalehuiz in chicome cohuatl, in *cinteotl*:. perhaps chicome coatl, cinteotl will yet have then carry a little, will help them. (b.6 f.3 p.38). 25. inic nahui itoca *cinteotl*.. the name of the fourth was cinteotl. (b.9 f.6 p.79). 26. auh in *cinteotl*, no toquichtin in ipan mixehuaya ixiuhxayac, ihuan ixiuhtlanex, ihuan iayauhxicol texotli, iuhquin tlalpilli, ihuan iecacozqui:. and also cinteotl was represented as a man, with his turquoise [mosaic] mask and his turquoise rays, and his mist jacket of [light] blue, as if netted, and his wind jewel necklace. (b.9 f.6 p.80). cinteotla** 27. quinanquilia *cinteotla*,. making replies to the corn god (b.2 f.14 p.231). 28. yoaltica tlao *cinteotla*.. by night did the god of corn shine (b.2 f.14 p.231). 29. quinanquilican *cinteotla*.. answer the maize god (b.2 f.14 p.244). cinteotzin** 30. *cinteotzin*.. [the priest of] cinteotl (b.2 f.13 p.208). 31. in itequiuh catca *cinteotzin* zan ixquich in ipan tlatoaya, ic tlanahuatiaya, inic monechicoaya in amatl in copalli, in olli in iyauhtli in itech monequia xilonen in ihcuac ilhuiuh quizaya,. the function of [the priest of] cinteotl was that he directed indeed everything; he commanded that the paper, the incense, the [liquid] rubber, the yiauhtli which he needed for [the goddess] xilonen when her feast day came, be gathered together. (b.2 f.13 p.208). incinteohuan** 32. quinxoxochiotia in *incinteohuan*, in cacalpolco quiquetza:. they decked their maize gods with flowers; they set them up in each calpulco. (b.2 f.2 p.62). nicinteotla** 33. za *nicinteotla*. only the corn god am i (b.2 f.14 p.231). From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 8 16:40:25 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 10:40:25 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs II Message-ID: Part of the problem here re: multiple gods vs One Supreme god is the issue of what a "god" is and without going into it very much here I can confidently state that what gods are has to do in Mesoamerica with what _places_ are and the human interactions with those places which always include relations of power. Likewise, I'm sure that Spaniards did get Aztec ideas of divinity wrong, just as other researchers have since. While certain names, eg. yohualli ehecatl or necoc yaotl or telpochtli may all refer to Tezcatlipoca (of which there were by some accounts four) this doesn't mean that one can ignore the context in which such titles might be used. That is to say it is not appropriate to call a deity by any name at any time. The context in which Tez may be called one or the other is a question of time and place. Where we go wrong is in our misguided attempt to phenomenologically describe some system of Aztec theology apart from practice. Richard Haly P.S. I've explored some of these issues in an analysis of what I argue is a fictive "ometeotl" in an article "Bare Bones: Re-thinking Mesoamerican Divinity" in the journal History of Religions February 1992. ---------- >From: CCBtlevine at aol.com >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: article on Aztecs >Date: Sat, Aug 07, 1999, 23:44 > > There is Centeotl, Ometeotl, yehecatl, naollin, macuilteotl. I wonder if > there is some sort of a pattern here? I wonder if there is support for the > belief that centeotl comes from centli except for the similarity of names. From melesan at pacbell.net Mon Aug 9 02:39:13 1999 From: melesan at pacbell.net (Mel Sanchez) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 20:39:13 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs II Message-ID: Found this on the internet--the publication and listing of Dr. Vento's article, but not the article: http://www.upress.umn.edu/journals/wsr/issues/11-1.html Mel From melesan at pacbell.net Mon Aug 9 03:06:23 1999 From: melesan at pacbell.net (Mel Sanchez) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 21:06:23 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs II Message-ID: Take a look at this from amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/book-contents/0761809201/qid=934166 480/sr=1-17/002-5080852-7218268 From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Mon Aug 9 04:45:15 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 22:45:15 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs II Message-ID: Ouch. There is an issue here that troubles me. Having taught Chicano Studies I am quite aware of the forces of Cultural Nationalism and "lo indio" what I see here troubles me in thusly: say you were going to write a book about the French Revolution. To do any kind of decent job - even only archival and not actually interviewing people re liberte egalite fraternite - one would have to learn French. Duh. How is it people think they can write about a culture when they don't know the language. And why is it usually indigenous languages (ie. non european ones) where this happens. The spelling of Moteuczomah as Moktekuzoma is (as J. Richard Andrews can teach us) a flag that this person doesn't know Nahuatl. This kind of PC appropriation (Chicano of Nahua) is one of the things that I (Ph.D in hand) hate about academia. First the reconquista and now the reteconquista. There are serious ethical issues of representation that such a book brings up. I, who have done over 25 years of "fieldwork" with Nahuas and speak it passably (understand it better) will only claim in my writings that what I write is a product of my _interaction_ with Nahua speakers. I am NOT PostModern enough to admit such readings of the sources as Vento apparently feels entitled to. ye ixquich. Richard Haly ---------- >From: Mel Sanchez >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: article on Aztecs II >Date: Sun, Aug 08, 1999, 21:07 > > Take a look at this from amazon.com: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/book-contents/0761809201/qid=934166 > 480/sr=1-17/002-5080852-7218268 From micc at home.com Mon Aug 9 04:59:03 1999 From: micc at home.com (micc) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 22:59:03 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs II Message-ID: Richard Haly wrote: > > Ouch.... > > languages (ie. non european ones) where this happens. The spelling of > Moteuczomah as Moktekuzoma is (as J. Richard Andrews can teach us) a flag > that this person doesn't know Nahuatl. why do you say that Moktekuzoma is incorrect and moteuczomah is correct? the problem arises with the othrographic representation of the Kw sound in Tekwtli. originally it was written by the spanish as tecutli, teuctli and teoctli, by several sources. But we know that the word has a kw sound and not a -cu sound nor a -euc sound. Like in xipe Totekw (Xipe totec) Hmmm.... This kind of PC appropriation > (Chicano of Nahua) is one of the things that I (Ph.D in hand) hate about > academia. First the reconquista and now the reteconquista. > > There are serious ethical issues of representation that such a book brings > up. I, who have done over 25 years of "fieldwork" with Nahuas and speak it > passably (understand it better) will only claim in my writings that what I > write is > a product of my _interaction_ with Nahua speakers. I am NOT PostModern > enough to admit such readings of the sources as Vento apparently feels > entitled to. > > ye ixquich. > > Richard Haly > > ---------- > >From: Mel Sanchez > >To: Multiple recipients of list > >Subject: Re: article on Aztecs II > >Date: Sun, Aug 08, 1999, 21:07 > > > > > Take a look at this from amazon.com: > > > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/book-contents/0761809201/qid=934166 > > 480/sr=1-17/002-5080852-7218268 From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Aug 9 11:04:11 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 05:04:11 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs II Message-ID: Well, micc, I don't think the unit phoneme that you discuss is the problem here. The thing that first struck me, like a huge fist, was the overbearing Germanic -k- in the first syllable. Mok-???????? Pow! On Sun, 8 Aug 1999, micc wrote: > > > Richard Haly wrote: > > > > Ouch.... > > > > languages (ie. non european ones) where this happens. The spelling of > > Moteuczomah as Moktekuzoma is (as J. Richard Andrews can teach us) a flag > > that this person doesn't know Nahuatl. > > > why do you say that Moktekuzoma is incorrect and moteuczomah is correct? > > the problem arises with the othrographic representation of the Kw sound > in Tekwtli. originally it was written by the spanish as > tecutli, teuctli and teoctli, by several sources. > > But we know that the word has a kw sound and not a -cu sound nor a -euc > sound. > Like in xipe Totekw (Xipe totec) > > Hmmm.... > > > > > This kind of PC appropriation > > (Chicano of Nahua) is one of the things that I (Ph.D in hand) hate about > > academia. First the reconquista and now the reteconquista. > > > > There are serious ethical issues of representation that such a book brings > > up. I, who have done over 25 years of "fieldwork" with Nahuas and speak it > > passably (understand it better) will only claim in my writings that what I > > write is > > a product of my _interaction_ with Nahua speakers. I am NOT PostModern > > enough to admit such readings of the sources as Vento apparently feels > > entitled to. > > > > ye ixquich. > > > > Richard Haly > > > > ---------- > > >From: Mel Sanchez > > >To: Multiple recipients of list > > >Subject: Re: article on Aztecs II > > >Date: Sun, Aug 08, 1999, 21:07 > > > > > > > > Take a look at this from amazon.com: > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/book-contents/0761809201/qid=934166 > > > 480/sr=1-17/002-5080852-7218268 > Michael McCafferty C.E.L.T. 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going from the me that others don't know to the other me that I don't know. -Juan Ramon Jimenez ******************************************************************************* From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Aug 9 13:53:29 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 07:53:29 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: Being an old veteran of the University of Texas at Austin, I can attest that Professor Vento of the Dept. of Spanish and Portuguese has some mighty strange ideas about the Nahuas, their language, history, and culture. A couple of other points about the current thread: The stem teo:- (as in teo:-tl "deity") was/is often used as an intensifier meaning 'super' or 'supernatural'. So if a deer is a big hooved animal, and one sees a horse for the first time, one might quite naturally refer to the beast as teo:maza:tl 'super deer' (or 'hooved beast bigger than any deer heretofore known to us'). It doesn't necesarily mean 'deer of the gods' as it has often been translated. The Spaniards reported that Nahuatl-speaking people referred to them as "teules" and that has been taken to mean that the indigenous people took the Spaniards to be gods. But maybe it just means that the indigenes were referring to their unfamiliar (hence beyond-natural) accoutrements. As to the comment: "The thing that first struck me, like a huge fist, was the overbearing Germanic -k- in the first syllable. Mok-????????" Syllable-final [k] is everywhere in Nahuatl. It's just spelled as c in the traditional orthography of Nahuatl. Spelling it with orthographic k instead doesn't make it Germanic. In fact, many Nahuatl speakers in this century have rejected the Spanish-based traditional orthography and prefer to use k and kw instead of c and uc. But "Moktekuzoma" was not the ruler's name. There is no syllable-final k at the end of the first syllable of this particular word. Using current non-traditional spelling, one would expect Motekwzoma. From micc at home.com Mon Aug 9 14:07:17 1999 From: micc at home.com (micc) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 08:07:17 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs II Message-ID: dear Michael, I can understand your distaste for the Germanic, but I also understand the use of the K by many for the hard C sound. As you well know that in Spanish and English the C can be a mask for the S sound as well as the k sound, so for those who are Spanish/English bilingual, (Like many Chicanos, who I guess are the target victims... I mean target audience of the book in question) the K is an artifice that helps relay the original sound of the Nahuatl.... Now that K also promises a problem when a K reader suddenly runs into a Maya word....since the K in Maya means a hard C sound followed by a glottla stop....I think???? thanks for the message!!! mario Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Well, micc, I don't think the unit phoneme that you discuss is the problem > here. > > The thing that first struck me, like a huge fist, was the overbearing > Germanic -k- in the first syllable. Mok-???????? > > Pow! > > On Sun, 8 Aug 1999, micc wrote: > > > > > > > Richard Haly wrote: > > > > > > Ouch.... > > > > > > languages (ie. non european ones) where this happens. The spelling of > > > Moteuczomah as Moktekuzoma is (as J. Richard Andrews can teach us) a flag > > > that this person doesn't know Nahuatl. > > > > > > why do you say that Moktekuzoma is incorrect and moteuczomah is correct? > > > > the problem arises with the othrographic representation of the Kw sound > > in Tekwtli. originally it was written by the spanish as > > tecutli, teuctli and teoctli, by several sources. > > > > But we know that the word has a kw sound and not a -cu sound nor a -euc > > sound. > > Like in xipe Totekw (Xipe totec) > > > > Hmmm.... > > > > > > > > > > This kind of PC appropriation > > > (Chicano of Nahua) is one of the things that I (Ph.D in hand) hate about > > > academia. First the reconquista and now the reteconquista. > > > > > > There are serious ethical issues of representation that such a book brings > > > up. I, who have done over 25 years of "fieldwork" with Nahuas and speak it > > > passably (understand it better) will only claim in my writings that what I > > > write is > > > a product of my _interaction_ with Nahua speakers. I am NOT PostModern > > > enough to admit such readings of the sources as Vento apparently feels > > > entitled to. > > > > > > ye ixquich. > > > > > > Richard Haly > > > > > > ---------- > > > >From: Mel Sanchez > > > >To: Multiple recipients of list > > > >Subject: Re: article on Aztecs II > > > >Date: Sun, Aug 08, 1999, 21:07 > > > > > > > > > > > Take a look at this from amazon.com: > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/book-contents/0761809201/qid=934166 > > > > 480/sr=1-17/002-5080852-7218268 > > > > Michael McCafferty > C.E.L.T. > 307 Memorial Hall > Indiana University > Bloomington, Indiana > 47405 > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > ******************************************************************************* > "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going > from the me that others don't know > to the other me that I don't know. > > -Juan Ramon Jimenez > > ******************************************************************************* From micc at home.com Mon Aug 9 14:21:08 1999 From: micc at home.com (micc) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 08:21:08 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: This is because mo = reflexive as in 'su sen~or, que se enoja' I understand? Frances Karttunen wrote: > ........ > But "Moktekuzoma" was not the ruler's name. There is no syllable-final k > at the end of the first syllable of this particular word. Using current > non-traditional spelling, one would expect Motekwzoma. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Aug 9 17:24:30 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 11:24:30 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: > As to the comment: "The thing that first struck me, like a huge fist, was > the overbearing Germanic -k- in the first syllable. Mok-????????" > > Syllable-final [k] is everywhere in Nahuatl. Sure. It's just spelled as c in the > traditional orthography of Nahuatl. Sure. Spelling it with orthographic k > instead doesn't make it Germanic. Ok. English. In fact, many Nahuatl speakers in this > century have rejected the Spanish-based traditional orthography and prefer > to use k and kw instead of c and uc. > Huh. > But "Moktekuzoma" was not the ruler's name. There is no syllable-final k > at the end of the first syllable of this particular word. PRECISELY! That is exactly what I meant. Unfortunately, I failed to make that explicit for all. Michael McCafferty C.E.L.T. 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Aug 9 22:09:46 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:09:46 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs II Message-ID: "Now that K also promises a problem when a K reader suddenly runs into a Maya word....since the K in Maya means a hard C sound followed by a glottla stop....I think????" The only Mayan language I know much about is Yucatec. There orthographic k stands for [k] ("hard C") in all contexts, including before the vowels i and e. Hence Yucatec ceh 'deer' is pronounced [keh], not [seh]. It's not a question of glottalization. Fran From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Aug 9 22:12:33 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:12:33 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: >This is because mo = reflexive as in 'su sen~or, que se enoja' I >understand? > Maybe more like "he has frowned in a lordly fashion". Fran From micc at home.com Mon Aug 9 22:28:21 1999 From: micc at home.com (micc) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:28:21 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: not like saying "su majestad"? or "se enojo"? thanks!! Frances Karttunen wrote: > > >This is because mo = reflexive as in 'su sen~or, que se enoja' I > >understand? > > > > Maybe more like "he has frowned in a lordly fashion". > > Fran From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Aug 9 22:53:43 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:53:43 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: >not like saying "su majestad"? or "se enojo"? > The verb zo:ma: 'to frown (in anger)' is reflexive in Nahuatl. So it has to take the mo- prefix, even when used as a name. The te:uc- 'lord' in this construction functions as an adverb meaning something like 'in a lordly fashion'. Zo:ma: is a "class 4" or "class D" verb and takes a final glottal stop in the preterite form. Since the glottal stop generally wasn't written in the traditional orthography, one gets orthographic "-zoma" rather than -zo:mah." One sees the preterite form more clearly in Cuauhtemoc (Cua:uhtemo:c) 'he has descended in the manner of an eagle' because temo: is a class 1/class A verb and takes the suffix -c in the preterite. Temo: is NOT a reflexive verb in Nahuatl, so there is no initial mo-. Isn't it interesting that from language to language, which verbs are reflexive and which are not isn't predictable? Another example is the Nahuatl verb pa:qui, which is NOT relexive in Nahuatl, even though it can usually be properly translated into English as 'to enjoy oneself' (i.e., reflexive in English). Languages are just fascinating in their variety and elegance. > >Frances Karttunen wrote: >> >> >This is because mo = reflexive as in 'su sen~or, que se enoja' I >> >understand? >> > >> >> Maybe more like "he has frowned in a lordly fashion". >> >> Fran From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Aug 9 22:56:22 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:56:22 -0600 Subject: article on Aztecs Message-ID: When nouns (i.e., tewktli or teuctli) are embedded in verbs, we get the clearest translation (equivalence with what we mean in English or Spanish) if we translate them as objects of the verb or, as in this case, as adverbs. I can't think of a case where translating as "subject" would be preferred. Further, while the semantics of "mo-zoma" (or "nino-zoma") certainly intersect the field of 'anger' ("cualani" or "yolpopozoca") because of the relationship between the internal emotion and the facial expression, "mozoma" means 'he frowns' -- 'he changes the shape of his eyebrows in a negative way'. I will add some Molina-ness at the bottom. }8-( Joe - On Mon, 9 Aug 1999, micc wrote: > not like saying "su majestad"? or "se enojo"? >=20 > thanks!! >=20 > Frances Karttunen wrote: > >=20 > > >This is because mo =3D reflexive as in 'su sen~or, que se enoja' I > > >understand? > > > > >=20 > > Maybe more like "he has frowned in a lordly fashion". > >=20 > > Fran >=20 (the pesky mysterious little symbols should have come out as c cedillas) =20 nezomaltia (nite). {{ne=87umaltia =3Dnite}} ayrar a otro. 55m-012r-00 nezomaltia (nite). {{ne=87umaltia =3Dnite}} ayrar a otro. 71m1-7-1-1 =20 nezomaltia (nitla). {{ne=87umaltia =3Dnitla}} ser mohino y mal acondiciona= do. 71m1-109-19 nezomaltia (nitla-invert.1). {{tlanezomaltia =3Dni=3Donitlanezomalti}} ser mohino y mal acondicionado. 71m2-127-4-13-22 =20 zoma (nino). {{=87uma =3Dnino}} ayrarse. 55m-012r-00 zoma (nino). {{=87uma =3Dnino}} coraje tener. 55m-055r-3 zoma (nino). {{=87uma =3Dnino}} echarse el ni=A4o en el suelo de coraje. 55m-091r-6 zoma (nino). {{=87uma =3Dnino}} coraje tener. 71m1-31-5 zoma (nino). {{=87uma =3Dnino}} echarse y rebolcarse por el suelo el ni=A4= o de coraje. 71m1-49-9 zoma (nino). {{zuma =3Dnino=3Doninozuma}} poner el ce=A4o el que esta enoj= ado. 71m2-27-4-45-5 =20 zomale. {{=87umale}} sa=A4udo. 71m1-100-19 zomale. {{zumale}} sa=A4udo y lleno de coraje. 71m2-28-1-01-5 =20 zomaliztica (ne-invert.2). {{ne=87umaliztica}} ayradamente. 55m-012r-00 zomaliztica (ne-invert.2). {{ne=87umaliztica}} ayradamente, o con yra. 71m1-7-1-1 zomaliztica (ne-invert.2). {{nezumaliztica}} encapotada o enojosamente. 71m2-65-3-18-11 =20 zomaliztli (ne-invert.2). {{ne=87umaliztli}} coraje. 55m-055r-3 zomaliztli (ne-invert.2). {{ne=87umaliztli}} coraje. 71m1-31-5 zomaliztli (ne-invert.2). {{nezumaliztli}} tirria enojo, o encapotamiento. 71m2-65-3-19-11 =20 zomalli. {{=87umalli}} coraje. 55m-055r-3 zomalli. {{=87umalli}} coraje. 71m1-31-5 zomalli. {{zumalli}} coraje o sa=A4a. 71m2-28-4-01-5 zomalli. {{zumalli}} coraje o sa=A4a. 71m2-28-1201-5 =20 zomaltia (nitene-invert.1). {{nezumaltia =3Dnite=3Donitenezumalti}} dar ca= usa a otro de enojo o de encapotamiento. 71m2-65-3-20-11 =20 zomani (mo). {{mo=87omani}} ayrada cosa. 55m-012r-00 zomani (mo). {{mo=87umani}} corajado. 55m-055r-3 zomani (mo). {{mo=87omani}} ayrado. 71m1-7-1-1 zomani (mo). {{mozomani}} enojado de embidia que contra otro tiene. 71m2-58-1-17-10 zomani (mo). {{mozumani}} enojado de embidia que contra alguno tiene. 71m2-58-1-38-10 =20 zozoma impatolli (mo). {{mozozoma inpatolli}} dezir mal el juego. 71m2-58-1-15-10 =20 zozoma in patolli (mo). {{mo=87o=87oma yn patolli}} dezir mal el juego. 71m1-45-8 =20 zozoman patolli (mo). {{mo=87o=87oma/patolli}} dezir mal en juego. 55m-084= r-6 ---- From Huaxyacac at aol.com Mon Aug 9 23:21:19 1999 From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 17:21:19 -0600 Subject: orthography Message-ID: As far as I understand it, in the Colonial Yucatec orthography, "c" stood for the "k" sounds, and "k" for glottalized "k". In modern orthography this has been changed to "k" and "k' ". I far prefer studying a language with a simpler set of sounds, like Nahuatl..... Alec Christensen From maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Tue Aug 10 20:35:38 1999 From: maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:35:38 -0600 Subject: Issue of Sacrifice Message-ID: Neither prehistoric archaeology nor historical ethnographic material are reliable even in the best of cases and are usually made up of narratives that are based more on assumptions of what we do not know rather than what we do know. In any case, there is not one archaeological or historical ethnographical piece of material that is not under contention because of the necessarily interpretive process that must go into it to make sense of it, while at the same time making a mess of it. Basically, my point is that the scientific humanities of archaeology, anthropology and history need to be recognized as the interpretive attempts that they are and not as reliable sources of truth. It surprises me how "matter of fact" rhetoric spews forth when it should always be qualified by "according to an interpretation". For example, your interpretation of sacrifice may mean to make something sacred but you have yet to explain what it means to make something sacred and how the drastic and dramatic act of taking life can be anything less than sacred for any human being who has not desensitized and dehumanized themselves to the value of human life. To provide a contrast, it is useful to bring human sacrifice back home and consider the place that ritual death has become relatively commonplace in the US through serial murder, terrorism and mass suicide. How many of us think of these activities as human sacrifice as they go one in or around most urban centers in the US? Maybe some of us can feel better about them if we do not sloganize them and sensationalize them as brutal cases of human sacrifice and instead think about them as isolated and unrelated incidents. However, if we apply the analytic of human sacrifice as sacred killing practices according to a less than fully understood belief system, anything from the Oklahoma City bombing to adolescent vampirism can be seen as human sacrifice. The important point here is that we do not understand human sacrifice either in the Valley of Mexico 1500 or in the US 2000 well enough to sloganize it. On a more personal note, I reacted to the statements of human sacrifice because they emotionally concern me as a Chicano who has been insulted and affronted by the scholastic treatment of ritual death in the Valley of Mexico as sensationalized Aztec human sacrifice. I want to make you aware that you cause pain each time you refer to Aztec human sacrifice as something to refer to matter of factly. When the Aztec Exhibit came to Denver, Colorado it portrayed the heritage of Mexican people as bloodthirsty and brutal, which created an environment in which I and many Chicanos and Mexicanos were asked "Did your ancestors really do that?" Such exhibits and the consequent attitudes that I still hear every so often are reckless and hurtful and not productive to intelligent discussion so I ask you to please stop while at the same time apologizing for inciteful comments that I have made in reaction to them. I think that instead of sloganizing and sensationalizing human sacrifice as has been done through the Aztec Exhibit we can look at other ways in which killing and ritual killing makes sense or not to us as part of our world and take that complexity in order to respect the likelihood that we can never understand the role that it played for the people in the Valley of Mexico. On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > > > Note also that European war practices before the present century generally > > did not target civilians (during the actual battles). Noncombatants were > > eliminated (if they were) by other means (displacement, starvation, > > terrorism, and so forth). The Spaniards did not *directly* kill all tha > > many Nahua, and most of those were warriors. Disease and societal > > collapse did the bulk of the work of native depopulation. > > Plus, there is both prehistoric archaeological and reliable historical > ethnographic material showing that at least in North American the killing > of women and children was one way of warring. So much of the > current discussion about this sort of thing reminds me too much of the > Japanese attempts to hide the facts of their World War II atrocities from > the modern generation. Humans are humans. Sheesh happens. > > > > > Michael McCafferty > C.E.L.T. > 307 Memorial Hall > Indiana University > Bloomington, Indiana > 47405 > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > ******************************************************************************* > "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going > from the me that others don't know > to the other me that I don't know. > > -Juan Ramon Jimenez > > ******************************************************************************* > > > From melesan at pacbell.net Tue Aug 10 22:39:16 1999 From: melesan at pacbell.net (Mel Sanchez) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:39:16 -0600 Subject: Aztec article Message-ID: Greetings all, Just had some communication with Dr. Vento and he apparently is influenced by German scholars, ethnographer Peter Hassler and Peter Lang. This probably accounts for his use of German linguistics in his orthography. He cites World Press Review, DEC 92 "The Lies of the Conquistadores" for the former and Die Zeit in Hamburg "Human Sacrifice among the Aztecs? A Critical Study" for the latter. Finally, he refers to "a more detailed study in Ce Acatl of Mexico City showing the contradictions and blunders of the Spanish." Mel From micc at home.com Wed Aug 11 00:46:17 1999 From: micc at home.com (micc) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:46:17 -0600 Subject: Issue of Sacrifice Message-ID: Carnale get a life and quit pontificating. your search for acceptance by the Euro-american academe is causing your to spout out things that really don't make sense. truly yours, mario maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu wrote: > > Neither prehistoric archaeology nor historical ethnographic material are > reliable even in the best of cases and are usually made up of narratives > that are based more on assumptions of what we do not know rather than what > we do know. In any case, there is not one archaeological or historical > ethnographical piece of material that is not under contention because of > the necessarily interpretive process that must go into it to make sense of > it, while at the same time making a mess of it. Basically, my point is > that the scientific humanities of archaeology, anthropology and history > need to be recognized as the interpretive attempts that they are and not > as reliable sources of truth. It surprises me how "matter of fact" > rhetoric spews forth when it should always be qualified by "according to > an interpretation". For example, your interpretation of sacrifice may > mean to make something sacred but you have yet to explain what it means to > make something sacred and how the drastic and dramatic act of taking life > can be anything less than sacred for any human being who has not > desensitized and dehumanized themselves to the value of human life. > > To provide a contrast, it is useful to bring human sacrifice back home and > consider the place that ritual death has become relatively commonplace in > the US through serial murder, terrorism and mass suicide. How many of > us think of these activities as human sacrifice as they go one in or > around most urban centers in the US? Maybe some of us can feel better > about them if we do not sloganize them and sensationalize them as brutal > cases of human sacrifice and instead think about them as isolated > and unrelated incidents. However, if we apply the analytic of human > sacrifice as sacred killing practices according to a less than fully > understood belief system, anything from the Oklahoma City bombing to > adolescent vampirism can be seen as human sacrifice. The important > point here is that we do not understand human sacrifice either in the > Valley of Mexico 1500 or in the US 2000 well enough to sloganize it. > > On a more personal note, I reacted to the statements of human sacrifice > because they emotionally concern me as a Chicano who has been insulted and > affronted by the scholastic treatment of ritual death in the Valley > of Mexico as sensationalized Aztec human sacrifice. I want to make you > aware that you cause pain each time you refer to Aztec human sacrifice as > something to refer to matter of factly. When the Aztec Exhibit came to > Denver, Colorado it portrayed the heritage of Mexican people as > bloodthirsty and brutal, which created an environment in which I and many > Chicanos and Mexicanos were asked "Did your ancestors really do that?" > Such exhibits and the consequent attitudes that I still hear every so > often are reckless and hurtful and not productive to intelligent > discussion so I ask you to please stop while at the same time > apologizing for inciteful comments that I have made in reaction to them. > I think that instead of sloganizing and sensationalizing human sacrifice > as has been done through the Aztec Exhibit we can look at other ways in > which killing and ritual killing makes sense or not to us as part of our > world and take that complexity in order to respect the likelihood that we > can never understand the role that it played for the people in the Valley > of Mexico. > > On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > > > > > > Note also that European war practices before the present century generally > > > did not target civilians (during the actual battles). Noncombatants were > > > eliminated (if they were) by other means (displacement, starvation, > > > terrorism, and so forth). The Spaniards did not *directly* kill all tha > > > many Nahua, and most of those were warriors. Disease and societal > > > collapse did the bulk of the work of native depopulation. > > > > Plus, there is both prehistoric archaeological and reliable historical > > ethnographic material showing that at least in North American the killing > > of women and children was one way of warring. So much of the > > current discussion about this sort of thing reminds me too much of the > > Japanese attempts to hide the facts of their World War II atrocities from > > the modern generation. Humans are humans. Sheesh happens. > > > > > > > > > > Michael McCafferty > > C.E.L.T. > > 307 Memorial Hall > > Indiana University > > Bloomington, Indiana > > 47405 > > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > > > ******************************************************************************* > > "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going > > from the me that others don't know > > to the other me that I don't know. > > > > -Juan Ramon Jimenez > > > > ******************************************************************************* > > > > > > From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Aug 11 03:02:14 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:02:14 -0600 Subject: Issue of Sacrifice -- ye ixquich.... Message-ID: Listeros, When you join the local society for the "cultivation of anything" and get together on a friend's front porch to enjoy each others' company and talk about the cultivation of ***that*** "anything", you'd probably respect the ground rules about not spitting on the porch, not cussing loud enough for grandma to hear it from the kitchen, and not starting arguments that distract everybody from the purpose of being there. Well, if anybody has walked past our porch in the last few days, they'd shake their head and say, "those people aren't cultivating what they got together to cultivate!" The list owner has asked us to recognize that the "human sacrifice" theme has been run into the ground for purposes of group discussion. If Mr. A. and Ms. B. want to continue it privately, that's their business. So long as they, being two consenting adults, are using only each other's time and are not contaminating the water downstream, the group can go about its business, hopefully in harmony. In any case, we should all remember that personal remarks are out-of-bounds (unless, of course, they are in the nature of a pat on the back.). My only personal remark at this point is that I'm glad that Fritz has provided us this forum for the exchange of ideas, information, and resources about Nahuatl and the culture associated with it. Best regards, Joe p.s. Fritz' last reminder: >>From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Aug 10 21:16:47 1999 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:32:40 -0600 From: "John F. Schwaller" Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Human sacrifice Dear members, The current thread on sacrifice has now moved to a point relatively far beyond the parameters of the list. If you wish to continue the discussion, which does have merit and which I have found interesting, please do it off-line. I must agree that to call any death by warfare "sacrifice" muddies the term in such a way as to make clear discussion meaningless. It is the over-riding cultural context that must be taken into account, as the friars did when they quickly developed moral plays on the theme of the Sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham. J. F. Schwaller, List Owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From xikano_1 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 11 14:59:58 1999 From: xikano_1 at hotmail.com (XiKano *) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:59:58 -0600 Subject: Issue of Sacrifice -- ye ixquich.... Message-ID: I say, Live It or Live With It - There's always the delete button, isn't there? Or is that too much of a strain? -XiKano >From: "R. Joe Campbell" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Issue of Sacrifice -- ye ixquich.... >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:02:31 -0600 > >Listeros, > When you join the local society for the "cultivation of anything" and >get together on a friend's front porch to enjoy each others' company and >talk about the cultivation of ***that*** "anything", you'd probably >respect the ground rules about not spitting on the porch, not cussing loud >enough for grandma to hear it from the kitchen, and not starting arguments >that distract everybody from the purpose of being there. > > Well, if anybody has walked past our porch in the last few days, they'd >shake their head and say, "those people aren't cultivating what they got >together to cultivate!" The list owner has asked us to recognize that the >"human sacrifice" theme has been run into the ground for purposes of group >discussion. If Mr. A. and Ms. B. want to continue it privately, that's >their business. So long as they, being two consenting adults, are using >only each other's time and are not contaminating the water downstream, the >group can go about its business, hopefully in harmony. > > In any case, we should all remember that personal remarks are >out-of-bounds (unless, of course, they are in the nature of a pat on the >back.). My only personal remark at this point is that I'm glad that Fritz >has provided us this forum for the exchange of ideas, information, and >resources about Nahuatl and the culture associated with it. > >Best regards, > >Joe > >p.s. Fritz' last reminder: > > > >From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Aug 10 21:16:47 1999 >Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:32:40 -0600 >From: "John F. Schwaller" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Human sacrifice > >Dear members, > >The current thread on sacrifice has now moved to a point relatively far >beyond the parameters of the list. If you wish to continue the discussion, >which does have merit and which I have found interesting, please do it >off-line. I must agree that to call any death by warfare "sacrifice" >muddies the term in such a way as to make clear discussion meaningless. It >is the over-riding cultural context that must be taken into account, as the >friars did when they quickly developed moral plays on the theme of the >Sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham. > >J. F. Schwaller, List Owner > > >John Frederick Schwaller >schwallr at selway.umt.edu >Associate Provost 406-243-4722 >The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 > http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From salvador at iastate.edu Wed Aug 11 16:36:10 1999 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:36:10 -0600 Subject: Issue of Sacrifice -- ye ixquich.... Message-ID: At 10:01 AM -0500 8/11/99, XiKano * wrote: >I say, Live It or Live With It - There's always the delete >button, isn't there? Or is that too much of a strain? > >-XiKano The "strain" comes from having to parse through all correspondence in order to glean items of value and relevance given the PURPOSE of the list. Mailing lists such as these are focused on specific topics for a reason, and Joe makes a reasonable appeal for us to bear this in mind. This etiquette means only that the purpose of the list and its subscribers are best served by observing our guidelines, NOT that topics extraneous to the guidelines are unimportant. However, ancillary matters should be pursued in more appropriate contexts. One brief example of why this is reasonable follows. Joe Campbell, Fran Karttunen, Fritz Schwaller and others on this list have at various times during the lifetime of the mailing list been "called to task" by other subscribers for failing to respond immediately to specific queries. Leaving aside the embedded assumption that such individuals are at our beck and call for personalized consultation, this expectation fails to take into account that most members manage busy schedules and responsibilities, and that sifting through mailing lists for items of value and interest is not conducive to their active participation. In the interest of rapid, substantial and effective interaction between specialists, students and "onlookers", it is best for all of us keep the signal-to-noise ratio of the communcation as high as possible. Joe has put this as gently as can be: >>From: "R. Joe Campbell" .. >>The list owner has asked us to recognize that the >>"human sacrifice" theme has been run into the ground for purposes of group >>discussion. .. >> In any case, we should all remember that personal remarks are >>out-of-bounds (unless, of course, they are in the nature of a pat on the >>back.). My only personal remark at this point is that I'm glad that Fritz >>has provided us this forum for the exchange of ideas, information, and >>resources about Nahuatl and the culture associated with it. Which raises one last point. At the moment, Fritz is on the road travelling and has left me as caretaker of the list. It should go without mention that the final arbiter of appropriate content is the person who envisioned, created and maintains the list. He, likewise, has made his view on this as clearly and politely as possible: >> >From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Aug 10 21:16:47 1999 >>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:32:40 -0600 >>From: "John F. Schwaller" >>Subject: Human sacrifice >> >>Dear members, >> >>The current thread on sacrifice has now moved to a point relatively far >>beyond the parameters of the list. If you wish to continue the discussion, >>which does have merit and which I have found interesting, please do it >>off-line .. >>J. F. Schwaller, List Owner Let us return to cordial and productive exchange on the Nahuatl language. Your humble tetlayecoltiani. Ricardo J. Salvador E-mail: mailto:salvador at iastate.edu 1126 Agronomy Hall Voice: 515.294.9595 Iowa State University Fax: 515.294.8146 Ames IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Aug 11 17:24:04 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:24:04 -0600 Subject: that is not the question Message-ID: No, XiKano, the question is not "live it or live with it"; the issue is that the owner of this list has very kindly requested that we move on to other topics. In fact, he has kindly asked us twice to do this. That is the issue. Given that we all appreciate his sponsoring this list, that requires simple politeness. That's the issue Michael On Wed, 11 Aug 1999, XiKano * wrote: > I say, Live It or Live With It - There's always the delete > button, isn't there? Or is that too much of a strain? > > -XiKano > > > >From: "R. Joe Campbell" > >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > >To: Multiple recipients of list > >Subject: Re: Issue of Sacrifice -- ye ixquich.... > >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:02:31 -0600 > > > >Listeros, > > When you join the local society for the "cultivation of anything" and > >get together on a friend's front porch to enjoy each others' company and > >talk about the cultivation of ***that*** "anything", you'd probably > >respect the ground rules about not spitting on the porch, not cussing loud > >enough for grandma to hear it from the kitchen, and not starting arguments > >that distract everybody from the purpose of being there. > > > > Well, if anybody has walked past our porch in the last few days, they'd > >shake their head and say, "those people aren't cultivating what they got > >together to cultivate!" The list owner has asked us to recognize that the > >"human sacrifice" theme has been run into the ground for purposes of group > >discussion. If Mr. A. and Ms. B. want to continue it privately, that's > >their business. So long as they, being two consenting adults, are using > >only each other's time and are not contaminating the water downstream, the > >group can go about its business, hopefully in harmony. > > > > In any case, we should all remember that personal remarks are > >out-of-bounds (unless, of course, they are in the nature of a pat on the > >back.). My only personal remark at this point is that I'm glad that Fritz > >has provided us this forum for the exchange of ideas, information, and > >resources about Nahuatl and the culture associated with it. > > > >Best regards, > > > >Joe > > > >p.s. Fritz' last reminder: > > > > > > >From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Aug 10 21:16:47 1999 > >Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:32:40 -0600 > >From: "John F. Schwaller" > >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > >To: Multiple recipients of list > >Subject: Human sacrifice > > > >Dear members, > > > >The current thread on sacrifice has now moved to a point relatively far > >beyond the parameters of the list. If you wish to continue the discussion, > >which does have merit and which I have found interesting, please do it > >off-line. I must agree that to call any death by warfare "sacrifice" > >muddies the term in such a way as to make clear discussion meaningless. It > >is the over-riding cultural context that must be taken into account, as the > >friars did when they quickly developed moral plays on the theme of the > >Sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham. > > > >J. F. Schwaller, List Owner > > > > > >John Frederick Schwaller > >schwallr at selway.umt.edu > >Associate Provost 406-243-4722 > >The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 > > http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > Michael McCafferty C.E.L.T. 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going from the me that others don't know to the other me that I don't know. -Juan Ramon Jimenez ******************************************************************************* From fabian at nuclecu.unam.mx Wed Aug 11 18:06:38 1999 From: fabian at nuclecu.unam.mx (Fabian E. Pena Arellano) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:06:38 -0600 Subject: Ethimology of ilna:miqui and ilcahua. Message-ID: Hello, Would anyone of the list mind telling me what are the ethimoligies of the words ilna:miqui "to remember" and ilcahua (to forget)? As far as I know, na:miqui means to meet, to find; and cahua to drop off, to leave behind. Ilna:miqui "sounds" to me something like "to find memories" and cahua "to leave behind memories". What does il- stand for in these verbs? Thank you. Fabian Pena. From mdmorris at indiana.edu Wed Aug 11 18:24:27 1999 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark Morris) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:24:27 -0600 Subject: Ethimology of ilna:miqui and ilcahua. Message-ID: Fabian, A quick note now until more knowledgeable others respond. Il-, I learned from R. Joe Campbell, represents breath/mental energy, but does not appear as a separate morpheme or "word." In addition to ilna:miqui and ilca:hua there is iltequi which is something like to sip a hot bowl of soup. How this might compare to ihiyotl I am ignorant. Mark From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 11 20:51:07 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:51:07 -0600 Subject: Ethimology of ilna:miqui and ilcahua. Message-ID: My own ethnographic work seems to indicate that the il- on ilnamiqui etc is derived from elli liver and source of emotions. People have described the relationship between heart and liver (seat of memory and emotional motivation) by interlacing their fingertips in front of their chest. Richard Haly ---------- >From: Mark Morris >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Ethimology of ilna:miqui and ilcahua. >Date: Wed, Aug 11, 1999, 12:25 > > A quick note now until more knowledgeable others respond. Il-, I learned > from R. Joe Campbell, represents breath/mental energy, but does not appear as > a separate morpheme or "word." In addition to ilna:miqui and ilca:hua there > is iltequi which is something like to sip a hot bowl of soup. How this might > compare to ihiyotl I am ignorant. Mark From riitkallio at kolumbus.fi Wed Aug 11 21:07:45 1999 From: riitkallio at kolumbus.fi (Annika Riit-Kallio) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:07:45 -0600 Subject: about artesany Message-ID: Question from Finland; I am a student of cultural anthropology and have visited Mexico a few times. I have one question and hope someone can answer. I know it is not only an Aztec thing but I have wondered what is the origin and the symbol of "three legs" (used a lot for example in pottery and other utility articles). Regards, Annika From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Aug 12 06:05:19 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:05:19 -0600 Subject: Etymology of ilna:miqui and ilcahua. Message-ID: Fabian, I think that items (I can't say 'words' or 'morphemes') like "ilna:miqui" and "ilca:hua" are at the heart of what makes Nahuatl semantics/morphology enjoyable to do every day. You never know how far on the scale of metaphor-making the next word is going to be. In this case, you also (as Mark has pointed out) get the additional mystery of an element "-il-" which is not distributed the way Nahuatl are in general -- they participate with combination with many other stems and they frequently have more than one level of derivation. On the surface, it looks like "-il-" totally hides its basic nature. Is it more like a noun or more like a verb? Or something else? I think the answer lies in the fact that two verbs don't get slapped together in Nahuatl the way nouns do. With nouns, you get: (this is a long example and "-il-" *is* coming back...) Nouns combine directly with nouns (noun + noun): (this list expects you to remember items you've already seen as you go.) calli house nacaztli ear cal-nacaztli corner of a house amoxtli book amoxcalli bookstore cuitlatl excrement cuitlacalli latrine nacazcuitlatl ear wax atl water xictli navel axictli whirlpool acalli boat, canoe huictli hoe ahuictli oar yacatl nose acalyacatl prow of a ship yacacuitlatl mucous That's enough noun + noun compounds to make the point. (if y'all want more of them, there are more left.) ------------------------- Nouns also combine directly with verbs. We say that they are embedded in verbs as the direct object. amoxtli book pohua read amoxpohua he reads a book (he book-reads) cuicatl song chalania clank cuicachalania he gets a song out of tune zoquitl mud chihua make zoquichihua he makes clay for building a wall mazatl deer (sometimes horse) maitl hand ilpia tie mazamailpia he hobbles horses ehuatl skin huehuetl upright drum tzotzona pound ehuahuehuetzotzona he plays a tambourine -------------------------------- Even verbs which won't take direct objects will take a pre-posed noun. Verbs that won't take a direct object: 1. intransitive 2. reflexive (since the reflexive object **is** the direct object) The pre-posed noun acts as an **adverb**. +++Note that this group is related to the recent discussion on "mo-teuc-zoma". coyotl coyote nehnemi walk nicoyonehnemi I walk like a coyote (ni- = I) apiztli hunger miqui die apizmiqui he is starving choca weep, cry, howl coyochoca he howls like a coyote ana grab, drag nite*-yaca-ana I govern somebody (nite* = I + somebody) aqui fit, get into nizoquiaqui I get mired down in mud icxitl foot, leg n(i)icxinehnemi I walk on foot ----------- The example *did* get out of maitl, but I thought you'd like to really knead the dough of word structure a little bit. Anyway, the point is that something that is immediately juxtaposed to a verb is probably a *noun*. So "-il-", being a noun, if we add the normal "absolutive" ending (like "cal-", "calli"), would be "illi". It is probably like "nit" in English; not many people can say what a "nit" is. It shows up in "nitpicker" and "nitpicking", but what is a "nit". Since what shows up before "-picker" in words like "cottonpicker", "cornpicker", "peapicker" (thank you, Ern), "applepicker", etc., is a noun, then "nit" must be a noun, but a noun that is extinct in the vocabulary of most speakers of modern English. Although it still lives in "nitpicker", it is an obsolete morpheme in the English of most people today. I think that the same thing is true of "illi". The notion of "spirit" is connected with "breath". I think that that is basic meaning of 'illi" and that it is interpreted as "mental"; therefore, when you "tiqu-ilcahua" something, you *leave it mentally* (forget it); when you "tiqui-ilnamiqui" something, you *find (run together with [literally, like two pieces of lumber], join with) it mentally*. Basically, I think that you had already intuited the right answer. Best regards Joe p.s. and pardon necatlahtol. From robc at csufresno.edu Thu Aug 12 15:36:49 1999 From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert G. Comegys) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:36:49 -0600 Subject: Etymology of ilna:miqui and ilcahua. Message-ID: Thanks for the very clear explanation. To unhappily quote George Armstrong Custer: "Nits make lice". A nit is the egg of a louse. It is, of course, very small, hence nitwit. Regards, John Comegys R. Joe Campbell wrote: It is probably like "nit" in English; > not many people can say what a "nit" is. It shows up in "nitpicker" and > "nitpicking", but what is a "nit". Since what shows up before "-picker" > in words like "cottonpicker", "cornpicker", "peapicker" (thank you, Ern), > "applepicker", etc., is a noun, then "nit" must be a noun, but a noun that > is extinct in the vocabulary of most speakers of modern English. Although > it still lives in "nitpicker", it is an obsolete morpheme in the English > of most people today. > From dfrye at umich.edu Thu Aug 12 17:16:00 1999 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:16:00 -0600 Subject: Etymology of ilna:miqui and ilcahua. Message-ID: > ... "nit" must be a noun, but a noun that is extinct in the vocabulary > of most speakers of modern English. Although it still lives in > "nitpicker", it is an obsolete morpheme in the English of most people > today. Joe must not have young kids, or if he does they must have escaped the head lice that seem endemic in schools these days! Nitpicking? Been there, done that. btw, thanks for another fascinating exchange. David Frye From fabian at nuclecu.unam.mx Fri Aug 13 20:10:14 1999 From: fabian at nuclecu.unam.mx (Fabian E. Pena Arellano) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:10:14 -0600 Subject: Another version of ethimologies of ilna:miqui and ilca:hua. Message-ID: Hello, In virtude of the answers I got related to the ethimologies of ilca:hua and ilna:miqui, I consulted Alfredo Lopez Austin's "Cuerpo Humano e Ideologia" printed by the Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico (pp. 208, 209, vol. 1). He propouses another meaning of the particle "il-". First of all he does not consider such particle directly related to la liver except in one case. In general, he considers the particle related to that organ as "el-" (he never indicates the length of the vowels, so it may be "e:l-" as well). By the beginning of his study about the animic centers through a philological analysis he considers the particle "il-" as a possible variant of "el-" without any semantic difference. Analyzing a wide range of words with "il-" which are not related to cognitive processes he concludes that "il-" stands for "curve, turn around, comming back" rather than anything ralated with the liver: "En el grupo el quedo incluido un caso de il: zan ilihuiz, advervio que significa "sin tiento". Originalmente se habian tomado en cuenta otros terminos mas en los que aparecen ya esta particula, ya la particula ellel. La razon de la inicial inclusion de il fue la posibilidad de que il y el fuesen simples variantes, sin diferencia siquiera de matiz semantico, como lo son tlael y tlail. Ademas, terminos ligados al concepto de memoria se forman con il, lo que hacia muy sugerente que los recuerdos se concentraran en el higado. Este material tuvo que desecharse al analizar, por precaucion, otros muchos compuestos de la misma particula que no tenian relacion con los procesos animicos. Revisar un volumen critico de material es una precaucion muy recomendable al que no quiera construir castillos de naipes. Resulto un valor aplicable a il: el de 'curva', 'vuelta', 'regreso', que explica muy claramente los terminos referentes a la memoria y al olvido. Para dar unos ejemplos de este material, cito ilacatzoa ('enrollar'), ilpia ('atar'), ilacatzihui ('cosa torcida'), ilhuitl ('dia, dia de fiesta') e ilhuicatl ('cielo'), estos dos ultimos muy acordes con la cosmovision nahuatl del tiempo que transcurre en giro en el mundo intermedio, que hace de cada dia un punto de retorno que se liga al tiempo divino. Asi pudo verse que tlalmactia [tla-il-namactia] ('recordar') significa 'encontrarse de regreso con las cosas', y tlalcahua [tla-il-cahua] ('olvidar'), 'abandonar el retorno de las cosas'. "Hay, sin embargo, una excepcion que da a il el valir de el. En zan ilihuiz, no solo acepto el valor de 'vuelta', sino que forma un pareado antitetico con zan iyulic. La traduccion literal de zan ilihuiz, si se supone que il tiene el mismo valir que el, es 'solo como si (se hiciera con) el higado', mientras que zan iyulic es literalmente 'solo con su corazon'. Zan iyulic es traducido por Molona como 'mansamente, con tiento o poco a poco', mientras que el mismo autor da a zan ilhuiz el valor de 'sin tiento, sin consideracion, sin estimacion o por ahi como se quiera'. Son dos firmas muy diferentes de accion: o con el corazon (zan iyulic) o con el higado (zan ilihuiz)." If Lopez Austin is right, what would ilhuicatl (or ilhi:catl?) mean? Hui:ca means "to carry, to guide"; would ilhui:catl mean "that is carried back, that is guided back"? This translation would agree with the idea of the nahuas about the time, since what happens in the sky is repeated and the days were thought to come back every 52 years. What would ilhuitl (or ilhitl?) mean? According to Launey, the verb "to go, ir" is constructed with the particles ya:- and hui:- (what do these particles stand for?); the verb "to come, venir" is constructed with the same hui:- and a suffix -tz which indicates an approach. If we consider this hui:- particle as something close to "to go", ilhui:tl would mean "that goes back", isn't it? On the other hand, what is the ethimology of ilama "old woman", anyway? Sincerely yours, Fabian Pena Arellano. From mikegaby at hotmail.com Mon Aug 16 01:43:46 1999 From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 19:43:46 -0600 Subject: AZ: Malinalli Message-ID: Listeros, Recently I had asked the list for a translation of Malinalli. This was due to a passage in the book _Jaguar Wisdom_ which claimed the word referred to an "energy cord" that passed between the layers of heaven and the earth in Aztec beliefs. I pretty much dismissed this as "esoteric nonsense". However, I have found a similar description in a passage in David Carrasco's _Religions of Mesoamerica_ where he states "Each of the realms...were permeated with supernatural powers circulating up and down the cosmic levels through spiral-shaped passages called 'malinallis'." I am sceptical because he does not quote any sources, and because he adds the english "s" to indicate plural. My question to those on the list more familiar with literary sources than I, is this: Are there any preconquest or colonial literary sources to suggest that the Mexica subscribed to this kind of "esoteric" beliefs? It all sounds pretty "New Age" to me. Thanks, Mike San Diego _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Aug 16 18:51:40 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:51:40 -0600 Subject: AZ: Malinalli Message-ID: > However, I have found a similar description in a passage in David >Carrasco's _Religions of Mesoamerica_ where he states "Each of the >realms...were permeated with supernatural powers circulating up and down the >cosmic levels through spiral-shaped passages called 'malinallis'." >I am sceptical because he does not quote any sources, and because he adds >the english "s" to indicate plural. >My question to those on the list more familiar with literary sources than I, >is this: >Are there any preconquest or colonial literary sources to suggest that the >Mexica subscribed to this kind of "esoteric" beliefs? > I think there may be two sources for this idea as expressed by David Carrasco. First is Bierhorst's controversial translation of the Cantares mexicanos (Cantares Mexicanos: Songs of the Aztecs Translated froM the Nahuatl with an Introduction and Commentary. Stanford University Press, 1985), where Bierhorst makes a great to-do about ghosts and songs whirling up and down. Bierhorst's interpretation of the Cantare seems to derive uncomfortably from the whole, much-later Ghost Dance religion of North America, and B. himself says there is precious little documentation for a similar tradition in Mesoamerica. But he takes the very fact that the friar evangelists missed it to be a sign that it was there and very, very covert. Bierhorst's translation and interpretation has been critically evaluated by both Miguel Leon-Portilla and James Lockhart, and their critiques are worth having a look at, since they are intelligently done from a wealth of background knowledge. If Carrasco accepts Bierhorst's interpretation of the Cantares, he needs to tell his readers where he gets the whirling pathways ideas and why he accepts them. Source 2 is etymological. The noun malinalli refers to a twisted bunch of grass, and it is one of the calendrical signs associated with the south in the 260-day tonalpohualli (count of the days). As a calendrical sign, it is always associated with a number from 1-13. The noun is derived from the transitive verb malina 'to twist or wind something." When malina is used reflexively, it means for something to twist itself, to wind, to spiral. Another transitive/reflexive verb also meaning 'to revolve or spin something, to twist' is malacachoa, with the associated noun malacatl 'spindle, bobbin, or spiral'. Malacaehecatl 'spiral wind' is one Nahuatl word for a whirlwind or dust devil. Since malinalli and malacatl both refer to inanimate objects, they would not ordinarily have distinct plural forms. I hope this is helpful. Fran From kread at condor.depaul.edu Mon Aug 16 20:37:27 1999 From: kread at condor.depaul.edu (Kay A. Read) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 14:37:27 -0600 Subject: AZ: Malinalli Message-ID: At 12:53 PM 8/16/99 -0600, you wrote: I believe David Carrasco might be getting his interpretation of malinalli from Alfredo Lopez Austin (and incorporating an s into the word simply because he's adapting it to English and a very lay audience unfamiliar with Nahuatl). I have no idea what he thinks of Bierhorst, but I know he admires Lopez Austin. Lopez Austin, I'm fairly sure (at least as sure as my memory serves me on some very past conversations with him) is getting the spinning idea from Frances' second etymological source (from malina) and some other mythological link, which I can't remember anymore. Alfredo believes Nahua theology said that powers spin up trees from the underworld to the upperworld and power the sun's journey across the daytime sky; and that nahualtin also draw power from spinning motions inherent in things like whirlpools and duststorms. His sources are a combination of linguistic analysis, pictorial codices, and both ancient and contemporary mythological sources. He's usually pretty good at listing his sources, although sometimes fails on a point or two. My experience with him is that he always can tell you where he's getting stuff if you ask him. His books "The Human Body," and "Myths of the Opossum" expand a bit on some of this. There are, I think, many good sources from which to argue the ideas of spinning and otherwise moving powers, whether this sounds New Age or not. The idea of spinning and moving powers also is not strange to other Native American traditions. Just because some adherents to New Age traditions borrow some of these ideas from other traditions (usually changing them in the process), does not mean that the traditions from which they are borrowing them from didn't think of them all by themselves (albeit in a different form). Kay Read > >> However, I have found a similar description in a passage in David >>Carrasco's _Religions of Mesoamerica_ where he states "Each of the >>realms...were permeated with supernatural powers circulating up and down the >>cosmic levels through spiral-shaped passages called 'malinallis'." >>I am sceptical because he does not quote any sources, and because he adds >>the english "s" to indicate plural. >>My question to those on the list more familiar with literary sources than I, >>is this: >>Are there any preconquest or colonial literary sources to suggest that the >>Mexica subscribed to this kind of "esoteric" beliefs? >> > > > >I think there may be two sources for this idea as expressed by David Carrasco. > >First is Bierhorst's controversial translation of the Cantares mexicanos >(Cantares Mexicanos: Songs of the Aztecs Translated froM the Nahuatl with >an Introduction and Commentary. Stanford University Press, 1985), where >Bierhorst makes a great to-do about ghosts and songs whirling up and down. >Bierhorst's interpretation of the Cantare seems to derive uncomfortably >from the whole, much-later Ghost Dance religion of North America, and B. >himself says there is precious little documentation for a similar tradition >in Mesoamerica. But he takes the very fact that the friar evangelists >missed it to be a sign that it was there and very, very covert. > >Bierhorst's translation and interpretation has been critically evaluated by >both Miguel Leon-Portilla and James Lockhart, and their critiques are worth >having a look at, since they are intelligently done from a wealth of >background knowledge. > >If Carrasco accepts Bierhorst's interpretation of the Cantares, he needs to >tell his readers where he gets the whirling pathways ideas and why he >accepts them. > >Source 2 is etymological. > >The noun malinalli refers to a twisted bunch of grass, and it is one of the >calendrical signs associated with the south in the 260-day tonalpohualli >(count of the days). As a calendrical sign, it is always associated with a >number from 1-13. > >The noun is derived from the transitive verb malina 'to twist or wind >something." When malina is used reflexively, it means for something to >twist itself, to wind, to spiral. > >Another transitive/reflexive verb also meaning 'to revolve or spin >something, to twist' is malacachoa, with the associated noun malacatl >'spindle, bobbin, or spiral'. > >Malacaehecatl 'spiral wind' is one Nahuatl word for a whirlwind or dust devil. > >Since malinalli and malacatl both refer to inanimate objects, they would >not ordinarily have distinct plural forms. > >I hope this is helpful. > >Fran > > From bcoon at montana.edu Wed Aug 18 20:25:12 1999 From: bcoon at montana.edu (Coon, Brad) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:25:12 -0600 Subject: Aztec ethobotany questions. Message-ID: Can anyone suggest a good work in English or Spanish preferably dealing = with Nahua ethnobotany. I am most=20 interested in the period at the time of contact but not exclusively so. I am particularly interested in one species. Luis Cabrera's book "Diccionario de Aztequismos" mentions a plant called 'mechoac=E1n' used = as a purgative. I would welcome any and all references to it particularly = in the Florentine Codex. Many thanks, Brad Coon bcoon at montana.edu From Huaxyacac at aol.com Wed Aug 18 22:05:31 1999 From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:05:31 -0600 Subject: Aztec ethobotany questions. Message-ID: Brad, Have you looked at Hern=E1ndez-- Historia natural de Nueva Espa=F1a. Univers= idad=20 Nacional Aut=F3noma de M=E9xico, Mexico City, 1959[ca.1577]? Although writte= n in=20 Spanish, he provides Nahuatl names for a lot of things. I've mainly looked a= t=20 his birds, not his plants. Alec Christensen From Huaxyacac at aol.com Thu Aug 19 16:25:09 1999 From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:25:09 -0600 Subject: Oaxacan place names Message-ID: A friend working on the coast of Oaxaca sent me the following query about the name Tututepec, which is a fairly basic one-- nicely enough, the place is known in Mixtec by the same name, Yucu dzaa. <> What I am not sure about is the variation in forms: obviously tutu- equals toto-, but could that reasonably have been transformed to tatal-? It's a bit easier for me to understand the change to toton-, since I know from experience that nasals can pop in and out. Totomixtlahuaca is one that I cannot easily parse. And totomi is a word that I have never seen-- I'm not sure what his sources were for that. In a later posting he asked about Miahuapan, which is often translated with "water" in the middle. How can we be sure that it is Miahua-a-pan, and not just Miahua-pan? Any feedback would be appreciated, both to satisfy my curiosity and improve his dissertation. Alec Christensen From karttu at nantucket.net Thu Aug 19 17:06:54 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:06:54 -0600 Subject: Oaxacan place names Message-ID: or what it's worth: The Nahuatl ixtlahuatl means 'plain, savanna, open country'. By adding locative -can to it, one gets a place name. And the final -n of -can tends to get dropped off. So this gives the -ixtlahuaca part. What kind of a plain? Toton- looks like 'warm, hot' to me. How about 'Warm Plain'? BUT, the final -n of toton(qui) wouldn't likely turn up as -m- intervocalically. Otomi-tl is the Nahuatl name for a particular ethnic group. It can't just pick up an initial t-. Toto-tl is the Nahuatl word for 'wild bird' (as opposed to totol-in 'domestic bird, turkey hen'). I wouldn't be inclined to just throw in a syllable-final nasal here just to make things work out. I can't see how anybody would come up with tatal- from totol- either, but of course if there is a mediating language with a really different phonology, one can't predict without a lot more knowledge. Lots of puzzles here. Fran From jvallier at ucla.edu Wed Aug 25 16:23:03 1999 From: jvallier at ucla.edu (Vallier) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:23:03 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl and music Message-ID: I'm an ethnomusicology grad student who will be studying Nahuatl this upcoming year. I'm interested in learning about the music of the Nahuas in both Mexico and the US (and anywhere else). If anyone can help me out by pointing me in the direction of some sources, whatever they may be, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks, John Vallier mailto:jvallier at ucla.edu ................................................ http://www.ethnogrooves.com From macswan at asu.edu Wed Aug 25 17:48:34 1999 From: macswan at asu.edu (Jeff MacSwan) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:48:34 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl imperatives Message-ID: Colegas: A friend just asked me for the imperative paradigm in Nahuatl, and I'm just to darn lazy to dig out my Nahuatl grammars, and figured that many of you would know off the top of your head. So how do you say You eat your tortilla (every day) (indicative) Eat your tortilla (imperative) We need second person singular and/or plural, and please identify the morphological structure of the verb as well as the particular Nahuatl variety. Many thanks!! Jeff From bcoon at montana.edu Wed Aug 25 20:57:49 1999 From: bcoon at montana.edu (Coon, Brad) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:57:49 -0600 Subject: Aztec ethobotany questions. Message-ID: Apologies for the delay in replying. Thank you for the citation, I will give it a try. Brad Coon bcoon at montana.edu > -----Original Message----- > From: Huaxyacac at aol.com [SMTP:Huaxyacac at aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:07 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Aztec ethobotany questions. > > Brad, > Have you looked at Hern=E1ndez-- Historia natural de Nueva Espa=F1a. > Univers= > idad=20 > Nacional Aut=F3noma de M=E9xico, Mexico City, 1959[ca.1577]? Although > writte= > n in=20 > Spanish, he provides Nahuatl names for a lot of things. I've mainly looked > a= > t=20 > his birds, not his plants. > Alec Christensen From karttu at nantucket.net Thu Aug 26 01:17:34 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 19:17:34 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl imperatives Message-ID: >Colegas: > >A friend just asked me for the imperative paradigm in Nahuatl, and I'm just >to darn lazy to dig out my Nahuatl grammars, and figured that many of you >would know off the top of your head. So how do you say > >You eat your tortilla (every day) (indicative) >Eat your tortilla (imperative) > >We need second person singular and/or plural, and please identify the >morphological structure of the verb as well as the particular Nahuatl >variety. > >Many thanks!! > >Jeff I think that if you want this sort of information and know where to find it, you shouldn't announce that you are too lazy and ask someone else to do the work for you and your friend. Nahuatl has a first-second-third-person, singular and plural "optative" rather than just a second-person singular and plural imperative. Not only are there optative forms for all persons, but there are present and past optative forms. The second-person is characterized by having the prefix xi- rather than singular ti- and plural am-/an-. Moreover, Nahuatl has a customary present (for stuff like "every day") that is different from the present indicative. If you want to know more, the place to look is Andrews's Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, pp. 383-4. From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com Thu Aug 26 06:58:42 1999 From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 00:58:42 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl and music Message-ID: To those interested in music of Pre-Columbian Mexico, a source is the musical group Tribu. They have studied with various tribal groups in Mexico. Some of the members are ethnomusicologists, Agustin Pimentel in particular. The group reproduces archeological instruments (huehuetl, teponaztli, tlapitzalli, etc.) They have many recordings on CD, but they always state that their music is "new" music with ancient instruments because of the lack of pre-contact music being transcribed by the Spanish authorities of the times. However, they have researched "living" tribes in Mexico also. One of their members, Ramiro Ramirez, is an Otomi and plays some of his tribal music when they perform. They tour in California usually in Novermber and April. The rest of the time they play outside the National Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City. You can correspond in Spanish with them at this email address: tribu at mail.internet.com.mx Buena suerte, Henry Vasquez From marisol at tiscalinet.it Thu Aug 26 09:14:55 1999 From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 03:14:55 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl and music Message-ID: John, Last year I gave a small lecture on Mexican pre-hispanic music and dance at the University of Helsinki (during Frances Karttunen's intensive Nahuatl course). The sources I used for my presentation were numerous, but the main texts were HISTORIA GENERAL DEL ARTE MEXICANO Volumen XI Danzas y Bailes Populares (includes also music) by Electra L. Momprade and Tonatiuh Gutierrez Editorial HERMES, 1981 Mexico LA MUSICA POPULAR DE MEXICO by Jas Reuter Panorama Editorial, 1980 (but there surely are newer editions) Mexico If I can think of other worthwhile sources, I will let you know. Susana Moraleda Director and Choreographer Mexican Folklore Group "LOS RANCHEROS" Rome, Italy -----Original Message----- From: Vallier To: Multiple recipients of list Date: mercoled? 25 agosto 1999 18.25 Subject: Nahuatl and music >I'm an ethnomusicology grad student who will be studying Nahuatl this >upcoming year. I'm interested in learning about the music of the Nahuas in >both Mexico and the US (and anywhere else). If anyone can help me out by >pointing me in the direction of some sources, whatever they may be, I would >greatly appreciate it. > >Thanks, > >John Vallier > >mailto:jvallier at ucla.edu > >................................................ >http://www.ethnogrooves.com > > From jvallier at ucla.edu Thu Aug 26 15:18:33 1999 From: jvallier at ucla.edu (Vallier) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:18:33 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl and music Message-ID: Susana, Thanks for the references. They should help out quite a bit. Sincerely, John >John, > >Last year I gave a small lecture on Mexican pre-hispanic music and dance at >the University of Helsinki (during Frances Karttunen's intensive Nahuatl >course). > >The sources I used for my presentation were numerous, but the main texts >were > >HISTORIA GENERAL DEL ARTE MEXICANO >Volumen XI >Danzas y Bailes Populares (includes also music) >by >Electra L. Momprade and Tonatiuh Gutierrez >Editorial HERMES, 1981 >Mexico > >LA MUSICA POPULAR DE MEXICO >by Jas Reuter >Panorama Editorial, 1980 (but there surely are newer editions) >Mexico > >If I can think of other worthwhile sources, I will let you know. > >Susana Moraleda >Director and Choreographer >Mexican Folklore Group "LOS RANCHEROS" >Rome, Italy > >-----Original Message----- >From: Vallier >To: Multiple recipients of list >Date: mercoled=EC 25 agosto 1999 18.25 >Subject: Nahuatl and music > > >>I'm an ethnomusicology grad student who will be studying Nahuatl this >>upcoming year. I'm interested in learning about the music of the Nahuas in >>both Mexico and the US (and anywhere else). If anyone can help me out by >>pointing me in the direction of some sources, whatever they may be, I woul= d >>greatly appreciate it. >> >>Thanks, >> >>John Vallier >> >>mailto:jvallier at ucla.edu >> >>................................................ >>http://www.ethnogrooves.com >> >> From Chukol at aol.com Thu Aug 26 16:51:59 1999 From: Chukol at aol.com (Chukol at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:51:59 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl and music Message-ID: Can anyone tell me whether any tapes (preferably language, but even music would be acceptable) on Nahuatl are available for purchase? I am about to begin self-study in the language (I live in Saudi Arabia) and would like to hear the language in connected speech. So far my search here in the US has been in vain. Thanks Chuck Oliver