From melesan at pacbell.net  Wed Dec  1 03:15:06 1999
From: melesan at pacbell.net (Mel Sanchez)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:15:06 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.201506.0700.>

The interesting thing about tiza is that it is used in Spain.  In Mexico
they use the word from Spain giz.  Does the latter come from Arabic?

John F. Schwaller wrote:
>
> Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
>
> tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
>
> John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Wed Dec  1 12:15:37 1999
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 05:15:37 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.051537.0700.>

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According to the diccionary of the Real Academia Espanola,  "gis" comes from
the Latin "gypsum".

On the other side, in Italian it is "gesso", and in the De Agostini Italian
dictionary it says that it comes from the Greek "gypsos".

In Portuguese it is "giz", but I can't find the etimology.

In French it is "craie", so no connection.

so?

As for Arabic, some of the words for "chalk" are "tabashir", "halak",
"hawara" but also "karbonat al-kas" (charcoal cup).

Susana Moraleda
(a Mexican in Rome)





-----Original Message-----
From: Mel Sanchez <melesan at pacbell.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: mercoled� 1 dicembre 1999 4.17
Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin


>The interesting thing about tiza is that it is used in Spain.  In Mexico
>they use the word from Spain giz.  Does the latter come from Arabic?
>
>John F. Schwaller wrote:
>>
>> Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
>>
>> tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
>>
>> John Frederick Schwaller
schwallr at selway.umt.edu
>> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
>> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
>
>

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From campbel at indiana.edu  Wed Dec  1 12:31:45 1999
From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 05:31:45 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.053145.0700.>

Carlos,
   'Tocaitl' es un sustantivo bien arraigado en el le'xico nahuatl.  El
suffix '-yo(tl)' indica que su sustantivo es inajenable.  Por ejemplo, si
llevo un paquete de hamburguesa, digo 'nonac' (de 'nacatl'), pero si hablo
de la carne de mi cuerpo, digo 'nonacayo' (de 'nacayotl').  Aqui' tienes
una lista de las ocurrencias del morfema 'to:ca:itl' en el Co'dice
Florentino.  Se nota que 'tocaitl' se combina con varios prefijos
posesivos, evidencia de que 'to-' es parte de la rai'z.

Saludos

Joe


to:ca:itl***
  contocayotique.  they gave it a name.
    <p33-o:n-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
  contocayotique.  they gave it a name, they named it; they called it.
    <p33-o:n-to:ca:itl-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
  ineixcahuiltoca.  its proper name.
    <poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-to:ca:itl>.
  intoca.  their names; their name. <poss-to:ca:itl>.
  itoca.  her name; his name; he is called; its name; it is called;
    so-called. <poss-to:ca:itl>.
  itocatzin.  his holy name; his name. <poss-to:ca:itl-tzin>.
  itocayoca.  its placename. <poss-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-ca:n>.
  itocayocan.  its place-name; its placename.
    <poss-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-ca:n>.
  motoca.  your name. <poss-to:ca:itl>.
  motocayoti.  he was named; it is named; it was called; it was named;
    it was referred to. <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1>.
  motocayotia.  he is named, he is called; he is known as; it is
    named; it is given the name; it is called; it was named; it was
    called; she is named; they are called; they are named; they call
    themselves. <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08>.
  motocayotiaya.  he was called; it was named; it was given the name;
    it was called; they were called; they were given a name; they were
    named; they were given the names.
    <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-ya3>.
  motocayotique.  they were named, they were given the name; they were
    called. <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
  motocayotiz.  it will be called. <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-z>.
  oquitocayotique.  they named it, they gave it a name; they called
    him; they named him. <o:-p33-to:ca:itl-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
  quintocamaca.  he gives them a name, he gives them a title.
    <p43-to:ca:itl-maca>.
  quintocayotia.  he calls them, he names them; they name them; they
    call it; they name it. <p43-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08>.
  quintocayotiaya.  they called them, they named them.
    <p43-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-ya3>.
  quitocamaca.  they give him a name. <p33-to:ca:itl-maca>.
  quitocamacaya.  they gave him a name. <p33-to:ca:itl-maca-ya3>.
  quitocamacazque.  they will give him a name.
    <p33-to:ca:itl-maca-z-plur01>.
  quitocayoti.  he named it, he called it, he gave it a name.
    <p33-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1>.
  quitocayotia.  he calls it, he gives it a name; they name it; they
    give it a name; they call it; they give a name; they name him;
    they called it; they call him. <p33-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08>.
  quitocayotiaya.  they named her; they called him; they named him;
    they called it; they named it; they gave it the name; they called
    her; they gave her a name; they gave him a name.
    <p33-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-ya3>.
  quitocayotique.  they named it, they gave it a name; they named him;
    they gave him a name; they called it; they called him.
    <p33-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
  teotocaitl.  name of god. <teo:tl-to:ca:itl>.
  titocayotiloz.  you will be called, you will be named.
    <p12-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-lo:1-z>.
  tlatocayoti.  he named; they named.
    <p51-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1>.
  tocaitl.  name; title. <to:ca:itl>.
  tocaye.  having renown. <to:ca:itl-eh1>.
  tocayoh.  renowned. <to:ca:itl-yo:tl1>.
  tocayotilo.  he is named, he is given a name; he is called.
    <to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-lo:1>.
  tocayotiloc.  he was named, he was given a name; .
    <to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-lo:1-prt2>.


From J.Kremers at let.kun.nl  Wed Dec  1 13:10:11 1999
From: J.Kremers at let.kun.nl (Joost Kremers)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 06:10:11 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.061011.0700.>

At 05:15 1-12-99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>According to the diccionary of the Real Academia Espanola,  "gis" comes from
>the Latin "gypsum".
>
>On the other side, in Italian it is "gesso", and in the De Agostini Italian
>dictionary it says that it comes from the Greek "gypsos".

"gypsum" is certainly not originally latin: the letter 'y' is a greek
letter. the word was probably adopted in latin from the greek, as were so
many words. (i don't see why a greek word ending in -os should be changed
to -um in latin, though. but i checked the forms, and they are correct.)

>In Portuguese it is "giz", but I can't find the etimology.
>
>In French it is "craie", so no connection.
>
>so?
>
>As for Arabic, some of the words for "chalk" are "tabashir", "halak",
>"hawara" but also "karbonat al-kas" (charcoal cup).

(modern?) arabic also has the words `jibs' and `jaSS' (with emphatic ss)
for `chalk' or `gypsum'.

joost kremers

-------------------------------------------------------
Joost Kremers
University of Nijmegen - The Netherlands
Department of Languages and Cultures of the Middle-East
PO Box 9103
6500 HD Nijmegen - The Netherlands
phone: +31 24 3612996
fax: +31 24 3611972


From mhopkins at fas.harvard.edu  Wed Dec  1 16:13:59 1999
From: mhopkins at fas.harvard.edu (Mary Hopkins)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:13:59 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.091359.0700.>

In my research w/ Mexican potters, I find they use "tiza" to name a glaze
component, which I think is some form of powdered lime. I'm no expert on
glazes, so not sure. Never heard giz. This from e. part of Edo de Mexico.
MH

On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Mel Sanchez wrote:

> The interesting thing about tiza is that it is used in Spain.  In Mexico
> they use the word from Spain giz.  Does the latter come from Arabic?
>
> John F. Schwaller wrote:
> >
> > Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
> >
> > tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
> >
> > John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> > Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> > The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
> >                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
>


From a8803917 at unet.univie.ac.at  Wed Dec  1 18:03:26 1999
From: a8803917 at unet.univie.ac.at (a8803917)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:03:26 -0700
Subject: Words of Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.110326.0700.>

chile comes from the nahuatl-word "chilli" (cf also "chiltic"=red) and
chocolate - as i know - from "xocolatl" ("atl"=water and "xokolli"="sour

fruit", both are also nahuatl words)
concerning the etymology of "cacao"(cacaoatl in nahuatl) i was told in
the nahua region of northern veracruz that the word derives from
"cacahuatic"= "hueco al dentro", what would make certain sense of you
think of the sound when you shake a cacao seed - but i�m not 100% sure
in that and would be pleased to hear the opinion of a linguist to that
question)

                          saludos, juergen

Jorge Perez de Lara schrieb:

> A clarification concerning a listero's recent posting:
>
> >I am wondering if there is a list of english and/or spanish words
> >that are strictly nahuatl in origin. I think chili and chocolate
> >are two of the examples.
>
>   "Chili" is actually a mis-spelling of the word "chile" and
> although this word probably has a Nahuatl origin, I am not
> completely sure of it. The foodstuff that goes by this name is
> not called "chile" in any other Spanish-speaking country outside
> Mexico and parts of Central America, but instead is called "aj�".
>
>   As for "chocolate", this word is only partially Nahuatl in
> origin. The cacao (this word is probably an Mixe-Zoquean in
> origin: "kakaw") drink consumed by the elites in a lot of
> Mesoamerica was actually known as "cacauatl" (literally, cacao
> water) among Nahuatl-speaking peoples at the time of the arrival
> of the Spaniards. The word "chocolate" by which it became known
> throughout the world was probably generated by mixing the Mayan
> name for the beverage "chocol-ha" (hot water) and its Nahuatl
> name, to produce the word "chocol-atl", which ultimately became
> "chocolate" (the ubiquitous Nahuatl word "atl" was always turned
> into "ate" -pronounced 'a-tay' in Spanish-). Sophie and Mike Coe,
> in their wonderful 'The True History of Chocolate', posit that
> the Spaniards did not like the idea of drinking a dark brown
> beverage that went by the name of "caca...". Although this is an
> amusing possibility to consider, the truth is that nobody knows
> how they came to mix the Mayan and Nahuatl names for the beverage.
>
> Jorge Perez de Lara
> Mexico
>
> jorgepl at infosel.net.mx

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien/Vien(n)a
Austria


From a8803917 at unet.univie.ac.at  Wed Dec  1 18:08:19 1999
From: a8803917 at unet.univie.ac.at (a8803917)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:08:19 -0700
Subject: curious
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.110819.0700.>

the axolotl is a kind of newt living in central mexico (from "atl"=water
and "xolotl"=nude, skinless)

Lucas Molina schrieb:

> i'm new to the list and am wondering if anyone has ever read DUNE by
> Frank Herbert.  it may seem odd, but, in the book, he uses the word
> axolotl to refer to a tank used for cloning.  i can gather from some of
> the postings that xolotl means doll, but i don't know what the a- adds
> to the word.  i haven't studied much of the language yet so i haven't
> committed much grammar to memory.  thank you to anyone who responds.

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien/Vien(n)a
Austria


From leonelhermida at netc.pt  Wed Dec  1 19:04:47 1999
From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:04:47 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.120447.0700.>

O 'Grande Dicionario da Lingua Portuguesa' volume V (1981) atribui a
"giz" a etimologia: "do arabe "jibs" derivado do grego "gypsos", gesso.

Mi ha capito, Susana?
Auguroni per Roma.
Leonel



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According to the diccionary of the Real Academia Espanola,  "gis" comes from
the Latin "gypsum".

On the other side, in Italian it is "gesso", and in the De Agostini Italian
dictionary it says that it comes from the Greek "gypsos".

In Portuguese it is "giz", but I can't find the etimology.

In French it is "craie", so no connection.

so?

As for Arabic, some of the words for "chalk" are "tabashir", "halak",
"hawara" but also "karbonat al-kas" (charcoal cup).

Susana Moraleda
(a Mexican in Rome)





-----Original Message-----
From: Mel Sanchez <melesan at pacbell.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: mercoled� 1 dicembre 1999 4.17
Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin


>The interesting thing about tiza is that it is used in Spain.  In Mexico
>they use the word from Spain giz.  Does the latter come from Arabic?
>
>John F. Schwaller wrote:
>>
>> Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
>>
>> tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
>>
>> John Frederick Schwaller
schwallr at selway.umt.edu
>> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
>> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
>
>

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From mixcoatl at earthlink.net  Wed Dec  1 19:56:18 1999
From: mixcoatl at earthlink.net (Olin Tezcatlipoca)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:56:18 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.125618.0700.>

These are just some of the words that we have added to our list of Nahuatl
origin words.  There is a book out there called AZTECISMOS that is a
dictionary like book listing most of the words.   A lot of the words are just
used regionally, el D. F., El Salvador, etc.   Sorry that I don't have time to
get the exact word in Nahuatl.  Those Mexicans and Central Americans and
speakers of Mexican Spanish on the Nahualt List will recognize these
immediately.


ADDING TO THE LIST:
ahuite    saddened

amole      soap made from root

atole        mexican oatmeal-like breakfast

camote     sweet potato

canica      marbles, as in playing marbles

cuacha      filth, as in when you step on a piece of it

chante       home, humble abode

chapulin    grasshopper

chichi       that which the baby cries for, breast

chiar        to cry

chicle        gum

chicote      whip

chilaquiles   tortilla and eggs with chilli sausce

chipote     a bump on the head

chongo       a hair style, a bun

chueco     one who is crooked, a thing which is crooked

cochino      a pig.   Marrano is the spanish word

coco           a hurt, for babies only

comal         a grill

copal          incense

coyote         dog-like creature of the deserts

cuate           twin, your buddy, your other self

elote           corn

escuincle    little kid, pre-adolescent

guacamole    avocado sauce

guajolote      turkey

huila             a kite,

hule         rubber

mecate      rope

metate       grinding stone, for corn

mitote       trouble, a meeting

molcajete    bowl for sauce, to grind in

nana			granmother, how this came from Nantli is a mystery

nene       baby

nena        doll

nopal       cactus

papalote     kite, butterfly

pepenar      to pick up, also sexual meaning

petaca        a trunk

petate         floor mat, for sleeping

pisca          harvesting

popote         straw, as in straw you drink with

pozole          menudo like stuff from Xalixco

pulque

tamal

tapatio       a measure of tortillas

tecolote      owl

tequila

tocayo      someone who has your name

tomate

zacate      grass, as in the kind you mow

zoquete    mud

Olin Tezcatlipoca
http://www.mexica-movement.org


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Wed Dec  1 20:11:48 1999
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:11:48 -0700
Subject: Words of Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.131148.0700.>

At 11:07 AM 12/1/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>chocolate - as i know - from "xocolatl" ("atl"=water and "xokolli"="sour
>
>fruit", both are also nahuatl words)

There is an article which is appearing in Ancient Mesoamerica which
questions this etymology.  As I recall the authors conclude that the word
actually come from the use of the "molinillo" to stir up the chocolate for
drinking.  If anyone knows the reference I'd appreciate it.  I saw the
article under submission but don't know if/when it was ever published.

J. F. Schwaller


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From jrader at m-w.com  Wed Dec  1 21:00:18 1999
From: jrader at m-w.com (Jim Rader)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:00:18 -0700
Subject: Words of Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.140018.0700.>

I believe Karen Dakin was one of the authors of this article, because
she mentioned it to me in e-correspondence last May.  The other
author is Soeren Wichmann.  Their theory is that the Nahuatl etymon
was <chikola:tl>, a word she says is attested in eastern Nahuatl
dialects.  I hesitate to provide further details if the article is
now in print and the data is presented somewhat differently.  Is
Karen on this list?  Maybe she could respond.  I haven't seen the
article.

Jim Rader



> At 11:07 AM 12/1/1999 -0700, you wrote:
> >chocolate - as i know - from "xocolatl" ("atl"=water and "xokolli"="sour
> >
> >fruit", both are also nahuatl words)
>
> There is an article which is appearing in Ancient Mesoamerica which
> questions this etymology.  As I recall the authors conclude that the word
> actually come from the use of the "molinillo" to stir up the chocolate for
> drinking.  If anyone knows the reference I'd appreciate it.  I saw the
> article under submission but don't know if/when it was ever published.
>
> J. F. Schwaller
>
>
> John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
>


From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Wed Dec  1 22:34:04 1999
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:34:04 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.153404.0700.>

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some comments to "tetzcatlipoca`s list":

- "canica" doesn�t come from nahuatl but - according to the diccionario of the
"real academia espagnola" - from the dutch word for marble
- atole (atolli en nahuatl) is made of maize (at least in its original version)
- cochino doesn�t derive from nahuatl (the pig was brought by the spaniards, the
nahuatl term for pig is "pitzotl")
- elote is exactly the young, already eatable maize (and until today very
important in the festive cycle)
- escuincle seems to come from "itzcuintli" = dog and is mostly applied on
children when disturbing or making much noise etc (the usual words for child are
"nenetl, conetl, pipil, ichpochcaconetl etc" depending from age and sex)
- chillar (to cry) isn�t  nahuatl, but has its etymological roots in  latin
(cisclare)
- i�m not sure in the etxymology of  "nana" (the "diccionario nauatl-espagnol" del
instituto mexiquense 1994 mentions also "nanatli" as a  nahuatl term for
grandmother) but i think i can remember that i�ve heard also ppl from southamerica
using the word - so maybe its of spanish origin (i hope that some native speakers
from spain or southamerica could clear this up?!)

                                        con saludos cordiales, juergen stowasser

Olin Tezcatlipoca schrieb:

> These are just some of the words that we have added to our list of Nahuatl
> origin words.  There is a book out there called AZTECISMOS that is a
> dictionary like book listing most of the words.   A lot of the words are just
> used regionally, el D. F., El Salvador, etc.   Sorry that I don't have time to
> get the exact word in Nahuatl.  Those Mexicans and Central Americans and
> speakers of Mexican Spanish on the Nahualt List will recognize these
> immediately.
>
> ADDING TO THE LIST:
> ahuite    saddened
>
> amole      soap made from root
>
> atole        mexican oatmeal-like breakfast
>
> camote     sweet potato
>
> canica      marbles, as in playing marbles
>
> cuacha      filth, as in when you step on a piece of it
>
> chante       home, humble abode
>
> chapulin    grasshopper
>
> chichi       that which the baby cries for, breast
>
> chiar        to cry
>
> chicle        gum
>
> chicote      whip
>
> chilaquiles   tortilla and eggs with chilli sausce
>
> chipote     a bump on the head
>
> chongo       a hair style, a bun
>
> chueco     one who is crooked, a thing which is crooked
>
> cochino      a pig.   Marrano is the spanish word
>
> coco           a hurt, for babies only
>
> comal         a grill
>
> copal          incense
>
> coyote         dog-like creature of the deserts
>
> cuate           twin, your buddy, your other self
>
> elote           corn
>
> escuincle    little kid, pre-adolescent
>
> guacamole    avocado sauce
>
> guajolote      turkey
>
> huila             a kite,
>
> hule         rubber
>
> mecate      rope
>
> metate       grinding stone, for corn
>
> mitote       trouble, a meeting
>
> molcajete    bowl for sauce, to grind in
>
> nana                    granmother, how this came from Nantli is a mystery
>
> nene       baby
>
> nena        doll
>
> nopal       cactus
>
> papalote     kite, butterfly
>
> pepenar      to pick up, also sexual meaning
>
> petaca        a trunk
>
> petate         floor mat, for sleeping
>
> pisca          harvesting
>
> popote         straw, as in straw you drink with
>
> pozole          menudo like stuff from Xalixco
>
> pulque
>
> tamal
>
> tapatio       a measure of tortillas
>
> tecolote      owl
>
> tequila
>
> tocayo      someone who has your name
>
> tomate
>
> zacate      grass, as in the kind you mow
>
> zoquete    mud
>
> Olin Tezcatlipoca
> http://www.mexica-movement.org

>

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
Austria
tel: 01/ 524 54 60
0676/ 398 66 79


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<html>
some comments to "tetzcatlipoca`s list":
<p>- "canica" doesn&acute;t come from nahuatl but - according to the diccionario
of the "real academia espagnola" - from the dutch word for marble
<br>- atole (atolli en nahuatl) is made of maize (at least in its original
version)
<br>- cochino doesn&acute;t derive from nahuatl (the pig was brought by
the spaniards, the nahuatl term for pig is "pitzotl")
<br>- elote is exactly the young, already eatable maize (and until today
very important in the festive cycle)
<br>- escuincle seems to come from "itzcuintli" = dog and is mostly applied
on children when disturbing or making much noise etc (the usual words for
child are "nenetl, conetl, pipil, ichpochcaconetl etc" depending from age
and sex)
<br>- chillar (to cry) isn&acute;t&nbsp; nahuatl, but has its etymological
roots in&nbsp; latin (cisclare)
<br>- i&acute;m not sure in the etxymology of&nbsp; "nana" (the "diccionario
nauatl-espagnol" del instituto mexiquense 1994 mentions also "nanatli"
as a&nbsp; nahuatl term for grandmother) but i think i can remember that
i&acute;ve heard also ppl from southamerica using the word - so maybe its
of spanish origin (i hope that some native speakers from spain or southamerica
could clear this up?!)
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
con saludos cordiales, juergen stowasser
<p>Olin Tezcatlipoca schrieb:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>These are just some of the words that we have added
to our list of Nahuatl
<br>origin words.&nbsp; There is a book out there called AZTECISMOS that
is a
<br>dictionary like book listing most of the words.&nbsp;&nbsp; A lot of
the words are just
<br>used regionally, el D. F., El Salvador, etc.&nbsp;&nbsp; Sorry that
I don't have time to
<br>get the exact word in Nahuatl.&nbsp; Those Mexicans and Central Americans
and
<br>speakers of Mexican Spanish on the Nahualt List will recognize these
<br>immediately.
<p>ADDING TO THE LIST:
<br>ahuite&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; saddened
<p>amole&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; soap made from root
<p>atole&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mexican oatmeal-like
breakfast
<p>camote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sweet potato
<p>canica&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; marbles, as in playing marbles
<p>cuacha&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; filth, as in when you step on a
piece of it
<p>chante&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; home, humble abode
<p>chapulin&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; grasshopper
<p>chichi&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that which the baby cries
for, breast
<p>chiar&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to cry
<p>chicle&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; gum
<p>chicote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; whip
<p>chilaquiles&nbsp;&nbsp; tortilla and eggs with chilli sausce
<p>chipote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a bump on the head
<p>chongo&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a hair style, a bun
<p>chueco&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; one who is crooked, a thing which is
crooked
<p>cochino&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a pig.&nbsp;&nbsp; Marrano is
the spanish word
<p>coco&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a hurt,
for babies only
<p>comal&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a grill
<p>copal&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; incense
<p>coyote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; dog-like creature
of the deserts
<p>cuate&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; twin,
your buddy, your other self
<p>elote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; corn
<p>escuincle&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; little kid, pre-adolescent
<p>guacamole&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; avocado sauce
<p>guajolote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; turkey
<p>huila&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
a kite,
<p>hule&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; rubber
<p>mecate&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; rope
<p>metate&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; grinding stone, for corn
<p>mitote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; trouble, a meeting
<p>molcajete&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; bowl for sauce, to grind in
<p>nana&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
granmother, how this came from Nantli is a mystery
<p>nene&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; baby
<p>nena&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; doll
<p>nopal&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; cactus
<p>papalote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; kite, butterfly
<p>pepenar&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to pick up, also sexual meaning
<p>petaca&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a trunk
<p>petate&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; floor mat, for
sleeping
<p>pisca&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; harvesting
<p>popote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; straw, as in
straw you drink with
<p>pozole&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; menudo
like stuff from Xalixco
<p>pulque
<p>tamal
<p>tapatio&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a measure of tortillas
<p>tecolote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; owl
<p>tequila
<p>tocayo&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; someone who has your name
<p>tomate
<p>zacate&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; grass, as in the kind you mow
<p>zoquete&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mud
<p>Olin Tezcatlipoca
<br><a href="http://www.mexica-movement.org">http://www.mexica-movement.org</a></blockquote>

<blockquote TYPE=CITE><a href="http://www.mexica-movement.org"></a>&nbsp;</blockquote>
--
<br>Juergen Stowasser
<br>Burggasse 114/2/8
<br>A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
<br>Austria
<br>tel: 01/ 524 54 60
<br>0676/ 398 66 79
<br>&nbsp;</html>

--------------F96B0AC300655F77ED2E049A--


From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Wed Dec  1 23:12:17 1999
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:12:17 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.161217.0700.>

Two interesting Mexican Spanish words that are from Nahuatl
	1. chamaco(a), from ixamanca, its sprout or bud (of a plant)
	2. cuelele (with an accent over the first "e", meaning  "hurry up").  This
is very strange because it is a Spanish command with no other conjugated
forms (it doesn't come from "colar"), and it is derived from the nahuatl
"cueleh", "quickly".

	John Sullivan
	Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de
John F. Schwaller
Enviado el: Martes, 30 de Noviembre de 1999 09:30 a.m.
Para: Multiple recipients of list
Asunto: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin

Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is

tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From dakin at servidor.unam.mx  Wed Dec  1 23:51:07 1999
From: dakin at servidor.unam.mx (DAKIN ANDERSON KAREN)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:51:07 -0700
Subject: Words of Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.165107.0700.>

Jim and Fritz,
We got off the article with revisions to Ancient Mesoamerica not too long
ago, so I'm not sure in which issue it will appear yet, but the basic
arguments are that there is both Nahuatl dialect and early loanword
evidence
from a great number of Mexican languages, as well as from the Philippines
and Spain (for instance an old dialect in Asturias), and I think 17th
century Holland, that the original form for
"chocolate" was
(is in those dialects that have it) chikola:t(l), which became
chokolatl by vowel harmony and was borrowed into Spanish that way  (cf.
also that Churubusco comes from Huitzilopochtli). Chikolli (with some
variation as far as long vowels in chi-), refers to a stick with twigs or
short roots on one end used as beaters.  The same word is used in Morelos
and parts of Guerrero for the long pool with a piece on the end used to
harvest fruit.  In Isthus and Yucatan Spanish apparently chicolear means
to beat chocolate or other liquid.  Our proposal for cacao is a bit more
complicated, but relates it to the word for 'egg' in various Southern
Uto-Aztecan languages -- It's probably better to leave it until the
article comes out.  We will be interested to see what reactions there are,
including those from this list.
What to me was the most rewarding evidence  when the ideas were falling
together was the fact that some speakers gave chikolat(l) to us right off,
but other
speakers who didn't give it to us when first asked, if I would hesitantly
suggest it, they would break into smiles and say "Why that's the OLD
word!".   Anyway, Soeren Wichmann and I hope that it will be out soon.

Karen Dakin
Instituto de Investigaciones Filologicas
UNAM

On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Jim Rader wrote:

> I believe Karen Dakin was one of the authors of this article, because
> she mentioned it to me in e-correspondence last May.  The other
> author is Soeren Wichmann.  Their theory is that the Nahuatl etymon
> was <chikola:tl>, a word she says is attested in eastern Nahuatl
> dialects.  I hesitate to provide further details if the article is
> now in print and the data is presented somewhat differently.  Is
> Karen on this list?  Maybe she could respond.  I haven't seen the
> article.
>
> Jim Rader
>
>
>
> > At 11:07 AM 12/1/1999 -0700, you wrote:
> > >chocolate - as i know - from "xocolatl" ("atl"=water and "xokolli"="sour
> > >
> > >fruit", both are also nahuatl words)
> >
> > There is an article which is appearing in Ancient Mesoamerica which
> > questions this etymology.  As I recall the authors conclude that the word
> > actually come from the use of the "molinillo" to stir up the chocolate for
> > drinking.  If anyone knows the reference I'd appreciate it.  I saw the
> > article under submission but don't know if/when it was ever published.
> >
> > J. F. Schwaller
> >
> >
> > John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> > Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> > The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
> >                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
> >
>


From micc at home.com  Thu Dec  2 01:18:04 1999
From: micc at home.com (micc)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:18:04 -0700
Subject: Words of Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.181804.0700.>

The cacao part appears to be a direct loan word from the maya....who
seemed to enjoy it amost as much as I do today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

a8803917 wrote:
>
> chile comes from the nahuatl-word "chilli" (cf also "chiltic"=red) and
> chocolate - as i know - from "xocolatl" ("atl"=water and "xokolli"="sour
>
> fruit", both are also nahuatl words)
> concerning the etymology of "cacao"(cacaoatl in nahuatl) i was told in
> the nahua region of northern veracruz that the word derives from
> "cacahuatic"= "hueco al dentro", what would make certain sense of you
> think of the sound when you shake a cacao seed - but i�m not 100% sure
> in that and would be pleased to hear the opinion of a linguist to that
> question)
>
>                           saludos, juergen
>
> Jorge Perez de Lara schrieb:
>
> > A clarification concerning a listero's recent posting:
> >
> > >I am wondering if there is a list of english and/or spanish words
> > >that are strictly nahuatl in origin. I think chili and chocolate
> > >are two of the examples.
> >
> >   "Chili" is actually a mis-spelling of the word "chile" and
> > although this word probably has a Nahuatl origin, I am not
> > completely sure of it. The foodstuff that goes by this name is
> > not called "chile" in any other Spanish-speaking country outside
> > Mexico and parts of Central America, but instead is called "aj�".
> >
> >   As for "chocolate", this word is only partially Nahuatl in
> > origin. The cacao (this word is probably an Mixe-Zoquean in
> > origin: "kakaw") drink consumed by the elites in a lot of
> > Mesoamerica was actually known as "cacauatl" (literally, cacao
> > water) among Nahuatl-speaking peoples at the time of the arrival
> > of the Spaniards. The word "chocolate" by which it became known
> > throughout the world was probably generated by mixing the Mayan
> > name for the beverage "chocol-ha" (hot water) and its Nahuatl
> > name, to produce the word "chocol-atl", which ultimately became
> > "chocolate" (the ubiquitous Nahuatl word "atl" was always turned
> > into "ate" -pronounced 'a-tay' in Spanish-). Sophie and Mike Coe,
> > in their wonderful 'The True History of Chocolate', posit that
> > the Spaniards did not like the idea of drinking a dark brown
> > beverage that went by the name of "caca...". Although this is an
> > amusing possibility to consider, the truth is that nobody knows
> > how they came to mix the Mayan and Nahuatl names for the beverage.
> >
> > Jorge Perez de Lara
> > Mexico
> >
> > jorgepl at infosel.net.mx
>
> --
> Juergen Stowasser
> Burggasse 114/2/8
> A-1070 Wien/Vien(n)a
> Austria


From micc at home.com  Thu Dec  2 01:32:46 1999
From: micc at home.com (micc)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:32:46 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.183246.0700.>

Nana is a reduplicative of nantli "mother.   Citli is grandmother in
nahuatl.

tata is a "	"	" ta'tli "father".    Coltzin (the honorable curved one)
is grandfather in Nahuatl



Juergen Stowasser wrote:
>
> --------------F96B0AC300655F77ED2E049A
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> some comments to "tetzcatlipoca`s list":
>
> -
> - i�m not sure in the etxymology of  "nana" (the "diccionario nauatl-espagnol" del
> instituto mexiquense 1994 mentions also "nanatli" as a  nahuatl term for
> grandmother) but i think i can remember that i�ve heard also ppl from southamerica
> using the word - so maybe its of spanish origin (i hope that some native speakers
> from spain or southamerica could clear this up?!)
>
>                                         con saludos cordiales, juergen stowasser


From micc at home.com  Thu Dec  2 01:35:43 1999
From: micc at home.com (micc)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:35:43 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.183543.0700.>

Since we are onto interesting derivations here's one that has been
bugging me for decades:

My grandmothers family was from Amozoc, Puebla,  I believe a nahuatl
speaking area.

She used to always say "ecole! ecole cua!"  we we might say "right On!
that's it!!!"
Since I am a unrepented Chilango, living in Aztlan, I have mucha familia
in el D.F., as well as friends. occasionally this phrase pops out, but
no one can tell me where it is derived...

any takers?........

John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:
>
> Two interesting Mexican Spanish words that are from Nahuatl
>         1. chamaco(a), from ixamanca, its sprout or bud (of a plant)
>         2. cuelele (with an accent over the first "e", meaning  "hurry up").  This
> is very strange because it is a Spanish command with no other conjugated
> forms (it doesn't come from "colar"), and it is derived from the nahuatl
> "cueleh", "quickly".
>
>         John Sullivan
>         Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de
> John F. Schwaller
> Enviado el: Martes, 30 de Noviembre de 1999 09:30 a.m.
> Para: Multiple recipients of list
> Asunto: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
>
> Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
>
> tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
>
> John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From micc at home.com  Thu Dec  2 01:51:40 1999
From: micc at home.com (micc)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:51:40 -0700
Subject: Words of Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.185140.0700.>

Does not churubusco come from Huitzliopochco, the place of
huitzilopochtli?

DAKIN ANDERSON KAREN wrote:
>
> Jim and Fritz,
> We got off the article with revisions to Ancient Mesoamerica not too long
> ago, so I'm not sure in which issue it will appear yet, but the basic
> arguments are that there is both Nahuatl dialect and early loanword
> evidence
> from a great number of Mexican languages, as well as from the Philippines
> and Spain (for instance an old dialect in Asturias), and I think 17th
> century Holland, that the original form for
> "chocolate" was
> (is in those dialects that have it) chikola:t(l), which became
> chokolatl by vowel harmony and was borrowed into Spanish that way  (cf.
> also that Churubusco comes from Huitzilopochtli). Chikolli (with some
> variation as far as long vowels in chi-), refers to a stick with twigs or
> short roots on one end used as beaters.  The same word is used in Morelos
> and parts of Guerrero for the long pool with a piece on the end used to
> harvest fruit.  In Isthus and Yucatan Spanish apparently chicolear means
> to beat chocolate or other liquid.  Our proposal for cacao is a bit more
> complicated, but relates it to the word for 'egg' in various Southern
> Uto-Aztecan languages -- It's probably better to leave it until the
> article comes out.  We will be interested to see what reactions there are,
> including those from this list.
> What to me was the most rewarding evidence  when the ideas were falling
> together was the fact that some speakers gave chikolat(l) to us right off,
> but other
> speakers who didn't give it to us when first asked, if I would hesitantly
> suggest it, they would break into smiles and say "Why that's the OLD
> word!".   Anyway, Soeren Wichmann and I hope that it will be out soon.
>
> Karen Dakin
> Instituto de Investigaciones Filologicas
> UNAM
>
> On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Jim Rader wrote:
>
> > I believe Karen Dakin was one of the authors of this article, because
> > she mentioned it to me in e-correspondence last May.  The other
> > author is Soeren Wichmann.  Their theory is that the Nahuatl etymon
> > was <chikola:tl>, a word she says is attested in eastern Nahuatl
> > dialects.  I hesitate to provide further details if the article is
> > now in print and the data is presented somewhat differently.  Is
> > Karen on this list?  Maybe she could respond.  I haven't seen the
> > article.
> >
> > Jim Rader
> >
> >
> >
> > > At 11:07 AM 12/1/1999 -0700, you wrote:
> > > >chocolate - as i know - from "xocolatl" ("atl"=water and "xokolli"="sour
> > > >
> > > >fruit", both are also nahuatl words)
> > >
> > > There is an article which is appearing in Ancient Mesoamerica which
> > > questions this etymology.  As I recall the authors conclude that the word
> > > actually come from the use of the "molinillo" to stir up the chocolate for
> > > drinking.  If anyone knows the reference I'd appreciate it.  I saw the
> > > article under submission but don't know if/when it was ever published.
> > >
> > > J. F. Schwaller
> > >
> > >
> > > John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> > > Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> > > The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
> > >                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
> > >
> >


From dakin at servidor.unam.mx  Thu Dec  2 03:56:24 1999
From: dakin at servidor.unam.mx (DAKIN ANDERSON KAREN)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 20:56:24 -0700
Subject: Churubusco
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.205624.0700.>

Sorry if the reason for citing Churubusco was not clear.  What I meant was
that Churubusco was the resultant form of borrowing Huitzilopochtli into
Spanish from Nahuatl.  The i's of Huitzil were changed into o's (u's) to
match or harmonize with opochtli along the way.  In somewhat the same way,
the i of the chi- in chikola:tl became an o as in the form of
'chocolate'.


From carlossn at ui.boe.es  Thu Dec  2 08:09:51 1999
From: carlossn at ui.boe.es (Carlos Santamarina)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 01:09:51 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.010951.0700.>

"R. Joe Campbell" escribi=F3:

> Carlos,
>    'Tocaitl' es un sustantivo bien arraigado en el le'xico nahuatl.  El=

> suffix '-yo(tl)' indica que su sustantivo es inajenable.  Por ejemplo, =
si
> llevo un paquete de hamburguesa, digo 'nonac' (de 'nacatl'), pero si ha=
blo
> de la carne de mi cuerpo, digo 'nonacayo' (de 'nacayotl').  Aqui' tiene=
s
> una lista de las ocurrencias del morfema 'to:ca:itl' en el Co'dice
> Florentino.  Se nota que 'tocaitl' se combina con varios prefijos
> posesivos, evidencia de que 'to-' es parte de la rai'z.
>
> Saludos
>
> Joe
>
>
> to:ca:itl***
>   contocayotique.  they gave it a name.
>     <p33-o:n-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
>   contocayotique.  they gave it a name, they named it; they called it.
>     <p33-o:n-to:ca:itl-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
>   ineixcahuiltoca.  its proper name.
>     <poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-to:ca:itl>.
>   intoca.  their names; their name. <poss-to:ca:itl>.
>   itoca.  her name; his name; he is called; its name; it is called;
>     so-called. <poss-to:ca:itl>.
>   itocatzin.  his holy name; his name. <poss-to:ca:itl-tzin>.
>   itocayoca.  its placename. <poss-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-ca:n>.
>   itocayocan.  its place-name; its placename.
>     <poss-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-ca:n>.
>   motoca.  your name. <poss-to:ca:itl>.
>   motocayoti.  he was named; it is named; it was called; it was named;
>     it was referred to. <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1>.
>   motocayotia.  he is named, he is called; he is known as; it is
>     named; it is given the name; it is called; it was named; it was
>     called; she is named; they are called; they are named; they call
>     themselves. <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08>.
>   motocayotiaya.  he was called; it was named; it was given the name;
>     it was called; they were called; they were given a name; they were
>     named; they were given the names.
>     <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-ya3>.
>   motocayotique.  they were named, they were given the name; they were
>     called. <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
>   motocayotiz.  it will be called. <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-z>.
>   oquitocayotique.  they named it, they gave it a name; they called
>     him; they named him. <o:-p33-to:ca:itl-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
>   quintocamaca.  he gives them a name, he gives them a title.
>     <p43-to:ca:itl-maca>.
>   quintocayotia.  he calls them, he names them; they name them; they
>     call it; they name it. <p43-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08>.
>   quintocayotiaya.  they called them, they named them.
>     <p43-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-ya3>.
>   quitocamaca.  they give him a name. <p33-to:ca:itl-maca>.
>   quitocamacaya.  they gave him a name. <p33-to:ca:itl-maca-ya3>.
>   quitocamacazque.  they will give him a name.
>     <p33-to:ca:itl-maca-z-plur01>.
>   quitocayoti.  he named it, he called it, he gave it a name.
>     <p33-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1>.
>   quitocayotia.  he calls it, he gives it a name; they name it; they
>     give it a name; they call it; they give a name; they name him;
>     they called it; they call him. <p33-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08>.
>   quitocayotiaya.  they named her; they called him; they named him;
>     they called it; they named it; they gave it the name; they called
>     her; they gave her a name; they gave him a name.
>     <p33-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-ya3>.
>   quitocayotique.  they named it, they gave it a name; they named him;
>     they gave him a name; they called it; they called him.
>     <p33-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
>   teotocaitl.  name of god. <teo:tl-to:ca:itl>.
>   titocayotiloz.  you will be called, you will be named.
>     <p12-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-lo:1-z>.
>   tlatocayoti.  he named; they named.
>     <p51-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1>.
>   tocaitl.  name; title. <to:ca:itl>.
>   tocaye.  having renown. <to:ca:itl-eh1>.
>   tocayoh.  renowned. <to:ca:itl-yo:tl1>.
>   tocayotilo.  he is named, he is given a name; he is called.
>     <to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-lo:1>.
>   tocayotiloc.  he was named, he was given a name; .
>     <to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-lo:1-prt2>.
>
>

Joe:

    Conozco el te'rmino na'huatl "tocaitl" y su composicio'n en posesivo
inalienable. Lo que no parece completamente seguro es que el te'rmino esp=
a=F1ol
"tocayo" (respecto a una persona, aquel que tiene su mismo nombre) proven=
ga
del na'huatl, pues la Real Academia de la Lengua Espa=F1ola se refiere a =
un
supuesto origen latino. Por otra parte, la aparicio'n que tu' mencionas
(tocayoh.  renowned. <to:ca:itl-yo:tl1>) no parece apoyar la posibilidad
etimolo'gica na'huatl.
    Gracias por la lista del Florentino (=BFusas el Temoa?).

            Saludos:        Carlos.


From leonelhermida at netc.pt  Thu Dec  2 08:58:38 1999
From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 01:58:38 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.015838.0700.>

I'm afraid "ecole! ecole cua!"  has nothing to do with Nahuatl.
It is pure Italian "ecco li qua" and means 'here they are' or
'here it is'.
Were there any immigrants from Italy at 'Amozoc, Puebla'?

Regards,

Leonel

-----Original Message-----
From: micc <micc at home.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 1:43 AM
Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin


Since we are onto interesting derivations here's one that has been
bugging me for decades:

My grandmothers family was from Amozoc, Puebla,  I believe a nahuatl
speaking area.

She used to always say "ecole! ecole cua!"  we we might say "right On!
that's it!!!"
Since I am a unrepented Chilango, living in Aztlan, I have mucha familia
in el D.F., as well as friends. occasionally this phrase pops out, but
no one can tell me where it is derived...

any takers?........

John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:
>
> Two interesting Mexican Spanish words that are from Nahuatl
>         1. chamaco(a), from ixamanca, its sprout or bud (of a plant)
>         2. cuelele (with an accent over the first "e", meaning  "hurry up").
This
> is very strange because it is a Spanish command with no other conjugated
> forms (it doesn't come from "colar"), and it is derived from the nahuatl
> "cueleh", "quickly".
>
>         John Sullivan
>         Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de
> John F. Schwaller
> Enviado el: Martes, 30 de Noviembre de 1999 09:30 a.m.
> Para: Multiple recipients of list
> Asunto: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
>
> Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
>
> tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
>
> John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Thu Dec  2 09:47:34 1999
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 02:47:34 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.024734.0700.>

u�re right, citli is the usual form for grandmother but a reduplication can also change
the meaning (think of "nacatl"/"nanacatl") so i�m still not sure if the dictionary cited
below is also right with "nanatli"=grandmother/mother...
pd: checked the word in the diccionario of the real academia, according to them "nana"
is (iberic) spanish....
                                                    saludos, juergen

micc schrieb:

> Nana is a reduplicative of nantli "mother.   Citli is grandmother in
> nahuatl.
>
> tata is a "     "       " ta'tli "father".    Coltzin (the honorable curved one)
> is grandfather in Nahuatl
>
> Juergen Stowasser wrote:
> >
> > --------------F96B0AC300655F77ED2E049A
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> >
> > some comments to "tetzcatlipoca`s list":
> >
> > -
> > - i�m not sure in the etxymology of  "nana" (the "diccionario nauatl-espagnol" del
> > instituto mexiquense 1994 mentions also "nanatli" as a  nahuatl term for
> > grandmother) but i think i can remember that i�ve heard also ppl from southamerica
> > using the word - so maybe its of spanish origin (i hope that some native speakers
> > from spain or southamerica could clear this up?!)
> >
> >                                         con saludos cordiales, juergen stowasser

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
Austria
tel: 01/ 524 54 60
0676/ 398 66 79


From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Thu Dec  2 12:41:16 1999
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 05:41:16 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.054116.0700.>

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Yes, I know.  Also my father used to say "ecole" all the time (he was from
Mexico City).

Now I live in Italy and have learned that it is pure Italian, but with a
double "c" (which IS indeed pronounced).

"Ecco" means "that's it", "right", "you see" -there are a lot of meanings
depending on the context.

"EccoLO" means "[here] HE/SHE/IT is", and

"eccolo QUA" means "HERE he/she/it is".

I'd also be interested to know if it was due to Italian inmigrants in Mexico
at the time the term was espa<n>olizado.

Susana Moraleda


-----Original Message-----
From: Leonel Hermida <leonelhermida at netc.pt>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: gioved� 2 dicembre 1999 10.00
Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin


>I'm afraid "ecole! ecole cua!"  has nothing to do with Nahuatl.
>It is pure Italian "ecco li qua" and means 'here they are' or
>'here it is'.
>Were there any immigrants from Italy at 'Amozoc, Puebla'?
>
>Regards,
>
>Leonel
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: micc <micc at home.com>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 1:43 AM
>Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
>
>
>Since we are onto interesting derivations here's one that has been
>bugging me for decades:
>
>My grandmothers family was from Amozoc, Puebla,  I believe a nahuatl
>speaking area.
>
>She used to always say "ecole! ecole cua!"  we we might say "right On!
>that's it!!!"
>Since I am a unrepented Chilango, living in Aztlan, I have mucha familia
>in el D.F., as well as friends. occasionally this phrase pops out, but
>no one can tell me where it is derived...
>
>any takers?........
>
>John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:
>>
>> Two interesting Mexican Spanish words that are from Nahuatl
>>         1. chamaco(a), from ixamanca, its sprout or bud (of a plant)
>>         2. cuelele (with an accent over the first "e", meaning  "hurry
up").
>This
>> is very strange because it is a Spanish command with no other conjugated
>> forms (it doesn't come from "colar"), and it is derived from the nahuatl
>> "cueleh", "quickly".
>>
>>         John Sullivan
>>         Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas
>>
>> -----Mensaje original-----
>> De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de
>> John F. Schwaller
>> Enviado el: Martes, 30 de Noviembre de 1999 09:30 a.m.
>> Para: Multiple recipients of list
>> Asunto: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
>>
>> Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
>>
>> tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
>>
>> John Frederick Schwaller
schwallr at selway.umt.edu
>> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
>> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
>
>
>

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From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Thu Dec  2 12:44:24 1999
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 05:44:24 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.054424.0700.>

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Sim! Magnifico! Misterio resuelto! (arabe derivado do grego!!!)

Auguri anche a te ed il Portogallo,
Susana


-----Original Message-----
From: Leonel Hermida <leonelhermida at netc.pt>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: mercoled� 1 dicembre 1999 20.09
Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin


>O 'Grande Dicionario da Lingua Portuguesa' volume V (1981) atribui a
>"giz" a etimologia: "do arabe "jibs" derivado do grego "gypsos", gesso.
>
>Mi ha capito, Susana?
>Auguroni per Roma.
>Leonel
>
>
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_009B_01BF3BFA.4F8767C0
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>
>According to the diccionary of the Real Academia Espanola,  "gis" comes
from
>the Latin "gypsum".
>
>On the other side, in Italian it is "gesso", and in the De Agostini Italian
>dictionary it says that it comes from the Greek "gypsos".
>
>In Portuguese it is "giz", but I can't find the etimology.
>
>In French it is "craie", so no connection.
>
>so?
>
>As for Arabic, some of the words for "chalk" are "tabashir", "halak",
>"hawara" but also "karbonat al-kas" (charcoal cup).
>
>Susana Moraleda
>(a Mexican in Rome)
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mel Sanchez <melesan at pacbell.net>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Date: mercoled� 1 dicembre 1999 4.17
>Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
>
>
>>The interesting thing about tiza is that it is used in Spain.  In Mexico
>>they use the word from Spain giz.  Does the latter come from Arabic?
>>
>>John F. Schwaller wrote:
>>>
>>> Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
>>>
>>> tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
>>>
>>> John Frederick Schwaller
>schwallr at selway.umt.edu
>>> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
>>> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>>>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
>>
>>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Thu Dec  2 12:47:16 1999
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 05:47:16 -0700
Subject: Words of Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.054716.0700.>

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There is a fantastic book:

"The True History of Chocolate"
by Sophie and Michael D. Coe
Thames and Hudson, London

including, among thousands of interesting things, an extensive analysis of
the etymology of the words "cacao" and "chocolate". The issue was discussed
in this list a couple of years ago if I remember well, under the subject
"Theobroma cacao".  Maybe John Swaller recalls the outcome.

By the way, does anyone know if the book has been translated into Spanish or
other Neo-Latin languages?

Susana Moraleda



-----Original Message-----
From: micc <micc at home.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: gioved� 2 dicembre 1999 2.20
Subject: Re: Words of Nahuatl Origin


>The cacao part appears to be a direct loan word from the maya....who
>seemed to enjoy it amost as much as I do today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>a8803917 wrote:
>>
>> chile comes from the nahuatl-word "chilli" (cf also "chiltic"=red) and
>> chocolate - as i know - from "xocolatl" ("atl"=water and "xokolli"="sour
>>
>> fruit", both are also nahuatl words)
>> concerning the etymology of "cacao"(cacaoatl in nahuatl) i was told in
>> the nahua region of northern veracruz that the word derives from
>> "cacahuatic"= "hueco al dentro", what would make certain sense of you
>> think of the sound when you shake a cacao seed - but i�m not 100% sure
>> in that and would be pleased to hear the opinion of a linguist to that
>> question)
>>
>>                           saludos, juergen
>>
>> Jorge Perez de Lara schrieb:
>>
>> > A clarification concerning a listero's recent posting:
>> >
>> > >I am wondering if there is a list of english and/or spanish words
>> > >that are strictly nahuatl in origin. I think chili and chocolate
>> > >are two of the examples.
>> >
>> >   "Chili" is actually a mis-spelling of the word "chile" and
>> > although this word probably has a Nahuatl origin, I am not
>> > completely sure of it. The foodstuff that goes by this name is
>> > not called "chile" in any other Spanish-speaking country outside
>> > Mexico and parts of Central America, but instead is called "aj�".
>> >
>> >   As for "chocolate", this word is only partially Nahuatl in
>> > origin. The cacao (this word is probably an Mixe-Zoquean in
>> > origin: "kakaw") drink consumed by the elites in a lot of
>> > Mesoamerica was actually known as "cacauatl" (literally, cacao
>> > water) among Nahuatl-speaking peoples at the time of the arrival
>> > of the Spaniards. The word "chocolate" by which it became known
>> > throughout the world was probably generated by mixing the Mayan
>> > name for the beverage "chocol-ha" (hot water) and its Nahuatl
>> > name, to produce the word "chocol-atl", which ultimately became
>> > "chocolate" (the ubiquitous Nahuatl word "atl" was always turned
>> > into "ate" -pronounced 'a-tay' in Spanish-). Sophie and Mike Coe,
>> > in their wonderful 'The True History of Chocolate', posit that
>> > the Spaniards did not like the idea of drinking a dark brown
>> > beverage that went by the name of "caca...". Although this is an
>> > amusing possibility to consider, the truth is that nobody knows
>> > how they came to mix the Mayan and Nahuatl names for the beverage.
>> >
>> > Jorge Perez de Lara
>> > Mexico
>> >
>> > jorgepl at infosel.net.mx
>>
>> --
>> Juergen Stowasser
>> Burggasse 114/2/8
>> A-1070 Wien/Vien(n)a
>> Austria
>
>


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From micc at home.com  Thu Dec  2 14:32:44 1999
From: micc at home.com (micc)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:32:44 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.073244.0700.>

thanks!!! Fianlly I know.  It is interesting that my friends from a very
"Mexican" barrio of Santa Cruz de Atenco, in Tacuba, use this phrase a
lot!!!!!

Leonel Hermida wrote:
>
> I'm afraid "ecole! ecole cua!"  has nothing to do with Nahuatl.
> It is pure Italian "ecco li qua" and means 'here they are' or
> 'here it is'.
> Were there any immigrants from Italy at 'Amozoc, Puebla'?
>
> Regards,
>
> Leonel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: micc <micc at home.com>
> To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 1:43 AM
> Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
>
> Since we are onto interesting derivations here's one that has been
> bugging me for decades:
>
> My grandmothers family was from Amozoc, Puebla,  I believe a nahuatl
> speaking area.
>
> She used to always say "ecole! ecole cua!"  we we might say "right On!
> that's it!!!"
> Since I am a unrepented Chilango, living in Aztlan, I have mucha familia
> in el D.F., as well as friends. occasionally this phrase pops out, but
> no one can tell me where it is derived...
>
> any takers?........
>
> John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:
> >
> > Two interesting Mexican Spanish words that are from Nahuatl
> >         1. chamaco(a), from ixamanca, its sprout or bud (of a plant)
> >         2. cuelele (with an accent over the first "e", meaning  "hurry up").
> This
> > is very strange because it is a Spanish command with no other conjugated
> > forms (it doesn't come from "colar"), and it is derived from the nahuatl
> > "cueleh", "quickly".
> >
> >         John Sullivan
> >         Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas
> >
> > -----Mensaje original-----
> > De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de
> > John F. Schwaller
> > Enviado el: Martes, 30 de Noviembre de 1999 09:30 a.m.
> > Para: Multiple recipients of list
> > Asunto: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
> >
> > Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
> >
> > tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
> >
> > John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> > Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> > The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
> >                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From dakin at servidor.unam.mx  Thu Dec  2 16:18:08 1999
From: dakin at servidor.unam.mx (DAKIN ANDERSON KAREN)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:18:08 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.091808.0700.>

My father-in-law, who was from Michoacan, used to say "ecole cua" all the
time too.  It may have something to do with generation -- he was born in
1910.  However, I should note that my husband was talking about the
different phrases his father used, such as "eccolo qua", and he said "and
he also always said another phrase that must be Greek or Russian, Axcan
quema", -- he must have learned that one travelling to Morelos where he
met my mother-in-law.=20

On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, marisol wrote:

> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>=20
> ------=3D_NextPart_000_0124_01BF3CCA.3F7D4D60
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> =09charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>=20
> Yes, I know.  Also my father used to say "ecole" all the time (he was fro=
m
> Mexico City).
>=20
> Now I live in Italy and have learned that it is pure Italian, but with a
> double "c" (which IS indeed pronounced).
>=20
> "Ecco" means "that's it", "right", "you see" -there are a lot of meanings
> depending on the context.
>=20
> "EccoLO" means "[here] HE/SHE/IT is", and
>=20
> "eccolo QUA" means "HERE he/she/it is".
>=20
> I'd also be interested to know if it was due to Italian inmigrants in Mex=
ico
> at the time the term was espa<n>olizado.
>=20
> Susana Moraleda
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leonel Hermida <leonelhermida at netc.pt>
> To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> Date: gioved=EC 2 dicembre 1999 10.00
> Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
>=20
>=20
> >I'm afraid "ecole! ecole cua!"  has nothing to do with Nahuatl.
> >It is pure Italian "ecco li qua" and means 'here they are' or
> >'here it is'.
> >Were there any immigrants from Italy at 'Amozoc, Puebla'?
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Leonel
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: micc <micc at home.com>
> >To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> >Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 1:43 AM
> >Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
> >
> >
> >Since we are onto interesting derivations here's one that has been
> >bugging me for decades:
> >
> >My grandmothers family was from Amozoc, Puebla,  I believe a nahuatl
> >speaking area.
> >
> >She used to always say "ecole! ecole cua!"  we we might say "right On!
> >that's it!!!"
> >Since I am a unrepented Chilango, living in Aztlan, I have mucha familia
> >in el D.F., as well as friends. occasionally this phrase pops out, but
> >no one can tell me where it is derived...
> >
> >any takers?........
> >
> >John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:
> >>
> >> Two interesting Mexican Spanish words that are from Nahuatl
> >>         1. chamaco(a), from ixamanca, its sprout or bud (of a plant)
> >>         2. cuelele (with an accent over the first "e", meaning  "hurry
> up").
> >This
> >> is very strange because it is a Spanish command with no other conjugat=
ed
> >> forms (it doesn't come from "colar"), and it is derived from the nahua=
tl
> >> "cueleh", "quickly".
> >>
> >>         John Sullivan
> >>         Universidad Aut=F3noma de Zacatecas
> >>
> >> -----Mensaje original-----
> >> De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre =
de
> >> John F. Schwaller
> >> Enviado el: Martes, 30 de Noviembre de 1999 09:30 a.m.
> >> Para: Multiple recipients of list
> >> Asunto: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
> >>
> >> Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
> >>
> >> tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
> >>
> >> John Frederick Schwaller
> schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> >> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> >> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
> >>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
> >
> >
> >
>=20
> ------=3D_NextPart_000_0124_01BF3CCA.3F7D4D60
> Content-Type: text/x-vcard;
> =09name=3D"Susana Moraleda.vcf"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Disposition: attachment;
> =09filename=3D"Susana Moraleda.vcf"
>=20
> BEGIN:VCARD
> VERSION:2.1
> N:Moraleda;Susana
> FN:Susana Moraleda
> EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
> REV:19991202T123633Z
> END:VCARD
>=20
> ------=3D_NextPart_000_0124_01BF3CCA.3F7D4D60--
>=20
>=20


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Thu Dec  2 16:43:21 1999
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:43:21 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.094321.0700.>

Karen, I think your'e wrong.  Im sure that "axcan Quemah" is Nahuatl for
"today, yes"


From scalderon at spin.com.mx  Thu Dec  2 17:12:45 1999
From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:12:45 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.101245.0700.>

Ecole! Ecole cua!
My father also uses it all the time.He's from Michoacan, raised in Veracruz
and lives in Mexico City since 12 years old.
I think everybody uses it.

Salvador Calderon
----- Original Message -----
From: micc <micc at home.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin


> thanks!!! Fianlly I know.  It is interesting that my friends from a very
> "Mexican" barrio of Santa Cruz de Atenco, in Tacuba, use this phrase a
> lot!!!!!
>
> Leonel Hermida wrote:
> >
> > I'm afraid "ecole! ecole cua!"  has nothing to do with Nahuatl.
> > It is pure Italian "ecco li qua" and means 'here they are' or
> > 'here it is'.
> > Were there any immigrants from Italy at 'Amozoc, Puebla'?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Leonel
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: micc <micc at home.com>
> > To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> > Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 1:43 AM
> > Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
> >
> > Since we are onto interesting derivations here's one that has been
> > bugging me for decades:
> >
> > My grandmothers family was from Amozoc, Puebla,  I believe a nahuatl
> > speaking area.
> >
> > She used to always say "ecole! ecole cua!"  we we might say "right On!
> > that's it!!!"
> > Since I am a unrepented Chilango, living in Aztlan, I have mucha familia
> > in el D.F., as well as friends. occasionally this phrase pops out, but
> > no one can tell me where it is derived...
> >
> > any takers?........
> >
> > John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:
> > >
> > > Two interesting Mexican Spanish words that are from Nahuatl
> > >         1. chamaco(a), from ixamanca, its sprout or bud (of a plant)
> > >         2. cuelele (with an accent over the first "e", meaning  "hurry
up").
> > This
> > > is very strange because it is a Spanish command with no other
conjugated
> > > forms (it doesn't come from "colar"), and it is derived from the
nahuatl
> > > "cueleh", "quickly".
> > >
> > >         John Sullivan
> > >         Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas
> > >
> > > -----Mensaje original-----
> > > De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre
de
> > > John F. Schwaller
> > > Enviado el: Martes, 30 de Noviembre de 1999 09:30 a.m.
> > > Para: Multiple recipients of list
> > > Asunto: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
> > >
> > > Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
> > >
> > > tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
> > >
> > > John Frederick Schwaller
schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> > > Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> > > The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
> > >                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
>


From dakin at servidor.unam.mx  Thu Dec  2 17:27:57 1999
From: dakin at servidor.unam.mx (DAKIN ANDERSON KAREN)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:27:57 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.102757.0700.>

You're absolutely right.  I'm sorry but that was what I meant.  It was
great fun to tell my spouse where it came from.

On Thu, 2 Dec 1999 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:

> Karen, I think your'e wrong.  Im sure that "axcan Quemah" is Nahuatl for
> "today, yes"
>


From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Thu Dec  2 17:31:19 1999
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:31:19 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.103119.0700.>

i think it means "ahora si" ("axca"=hoy, "axcan"=ahora)

Yaoxochitl at aol.com schrieb:

> Karen, I think your'e wrong.  Im sure that "axcan Quemah" is Nahuatl for
> "today, yes"

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
Austria
tel: 01/ 524 54 60
0676/ 398 66 79


From Richard.Haly at colorado.edu  Thu Dec  2 17:34:33 1999
From: Richard.Haly at colorado.edu (Richard Haly)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:34:33 -0700
Subject: Axcan quemah
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.103433.0700.>

> Karen, I think your'e wrong.  Im sure that "axcan Quemah" is Nahuatl for
> "today, yes"

Maybe that wasn't too clear, but I'm sure Dr. Dakin meant that as a joke on
her husband's part as one isn't as likely to learn Greek or Russian in
Morelos as Nahuatl. She knows her Nahuatl.

Moreover, axcan quemah doesn't mean "Today, yes" but is a translation of
"ahora, si" which isn't so much "literally" translatable into words as it is
primarily a sign of strong assent. Thus, "translation" means to note when a
speaker says it because then you're on the right track with whatever
prompted it. When I am working and interviewing in Nahuatl and wanting to
question whether I've understood something, I will propose an if/then
question based on the logic of what I've been told. If I receive an axcan
quemah as a reply (as opposed to no reply or a confused look), then I'm
pretty sure that I can go further. Japanese "hai" is similar. People
translate it as "yes" meaning agreement, when it often means "I hear what
your saying, I follow you" just as "unhuh" does in English. If I'm telling
you a story and you interject "unhuh" every so often, that doesn't mean you
agree with what I'm saying, but means that you are following what I'm
saying. By the way, interviews conducted without this sort of feedback tend
to be 30% shorter than those with such interactivity.

Best,

Richard


From Richard.Haly at colorado.edu  Thu Dec  2 17:37:33 1999
From: Richard.Haly at colorado.edu (Richard Haly)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:37:33 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.103733.0700.>

> I'm afraid "ecole! ecole cua!"  has nothing to do with Nahuatl.
> It is pure Italian "ecco li qua" and means 'here they are' or
> 'here it is'.
> Were there any immigrants from Italy at 'Amozoc, Puebla'?
This is interesting, though there may still be another source. I think e cu=
a
and maybe ecole cua are exclaimed quite often in Afro-Cubano music of
Santer=EDa such as that by Celina [Gonz=E1lez] y Reutilio: e e ecua babalu ay e
ecua: where babalu =3D vodoun priest.

So there may be African sources or indigenous island sources. At any rate, =
I
don't think it's Nahuatl.

Best,

Richard


From micc at home.com  Thu Dec  2 20:28:49 1999
From: micc at home.com (micc)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:28:49 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.132849.0700.>

It is interesting that an italian phrase made it into what normally
would be "lower" income communities,villages, and towns!  You would
think that onlyt the "cosmopolitan"
Chilangos (like myself!) would use a "foreign" phrase. Like to day my
cousins use

cio!
Oki dohki!

radical vato........




Salvador Calder�n wrote:
>
> Ecole! Ecole cua!
> My father also uses it all the time.He's from Michoacan, raised in Veracruz
> and lives in Mexico City since 12 years old.
> I think everybody uses it.
>
> Salvador Calderon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: micc <micc at home.com>
> To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 8:36 AM
> Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
>
> > thanks!!! Fianlly I know.  It is interesting that my friends from a very
> > "Mexican" barrio of Santa Cruz de Atenco, in Tacuba, use this phrase a
> > lot!!!!!
> >
> > Leonel Hermida wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm afraid "ecole! ecole cua!"  has nothing to do with Nahuatl.
> > > It is pure Italian "ecco li qua" and means 'here they are' or
> > > 'here it is'.
> > > Were there any immigrants from Italy at 'Amozoc, Puebla'?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Leonel
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: micc <micc at home.com>
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> > > Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 1:43 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
> > >
> > > Since we are onto interesting derivations here's one that has been
> > > bugging me for decades:
> > >
> > > My grandmothers family was from Amozoc, Puebla,  I believe a nahuatl
> > > speaking area.
> > >
> > > She used to always say "ecole! ecole cua!"  we we might say "right On!
> > > that's it!!!"
> > > Since I am a unrepented Chilango, living in Aztlan, I have mucha familia
> > > in el D.F., as well as friends. occasionally this phrase pops out, but
> > > no one can tell me where it is derived...
> > >
> > > any takers?........
> > >
> > > John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Two interesting Mexican Spanish words that are from Nahuatl
> > > >         1. chamaco(a), from ixamanca, its sprout or bud (of a plant)
> > > >         2. cuelele (with an accent over the first "e", meaning  "hurry
> up").
> > > This
> > > > is very strange because it is a Spanish command with no other
> conjugated
> > > > forms (it doesn't come from "colar"), and it is derived from the
> nahuatl
> > > > "cueleh", "quickly".
> > > >
> > > >         John Sullivan
> > > >         Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas
> > > >
> > > > -----Mensaje original-----
> > > > De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre
> de
> > > > John F. Schwaller
> > > > Enviado el: Martes, 30 de Noviembre de 1999 09:30 a.m.
> > > > Para: Multiple recipients of list
> > > > Asunto: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
> > > >
> > > > Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
> > > >
> > > > tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
> > > >
> > > > John Frederick Schwaller
> schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> > > > Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> > > > The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
> > > >                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
> >


From micc at home.com  Thu Dec  2 20:44:45 1999
From: micc at home.com (micc)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:44:45 -0700
Subject: Axcan quemah
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.134445.0700.>

Ecole Cua!!!!

Richard Haly wrote:
>
> > Karen, I think your'e wrong.  Im sure that "axcan Quemah" is Nahuatl for
> > "today, yes"
>
> Maybe that wasn't too clear, but I'm sure Dr. Dakin meant that as a joke on
> her husband's part as one isn't as likely to learn Greek or Russian in
> Morelos as Nahuatl. She knows her Nahuatl.
>
> Moreover, axcan quemah doesn't mean "Today, yes" but is a translation of
> "ahora, si" which isn't so much "literally" translatable into words as it is
> primarily a sign of strong assent. Thus, "translation" means to note when a
> speaker says it because then you're on the right track with whatever
> prompted it. When I am working and interviewing in Nahuatl and wanting to
> question whether I've understood something, I will propose an if/then
> question based on the logic of what I've been told. If I receive an axcan
> quemah as a reply (as opposed to no reply or a confused look), then I'm
> pretty sure that I can go further. Japanese "hai" is similar. People
> translate it as "yes" meaning agreement, when it often means "I hear what
> your saying, I follow you" just as "unhuh" does in English. If I'm telling
> you a story and you interject "unhuh" every so often, that doesn't mean you
> agree with what I'm saying, but means that you are following what I'm
> saying. By the way, interviews conducted without this sort of feedback tend
> to be 30% shorter than those with such interactivity.
>
> Best,
>
> Richard


From andreamb at mail.giga.com  Fri Dec  3 05:18:43 1999
From: andreamb at mail.giga.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Andrea_Mart=EDnez_B=2E=22?=)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:18:43 -0700
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Cambio_de_direcci=F3n?=
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.221843.0700.>

Estimado senor Schwaller:

Cambio mi direccion electronica. La nueva es andreamb at infosel.net.mx
=BFPodria registrar este cambio en el web tan valioso que usted dirige?
Disculpe por utilizar esta via, pero perdi la referencia para registrar
estos cambios de modo mas automatico.
Gracias

Andrea Martinez


From ochoa at scd.hp.com  Fri Dec  3 23:32:11 1999
From: ochoa at scd.hp.com (Marcos Ochoa)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:32:11 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words ...THANKS!
Message-ID: <FRI.3.DEC.1999.163211.0700.>

I want to take this opportuniy to express my gratitude to all who did and to all
who will respond to this post. 2 days and still going strong on (2 lists)! You
all have taught me a great deal.

Thank You,
-Marc.


From leonelhermida at netc.pt  Mon Dec  6 12:36:28 1999
From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 05:36:28 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status
Message-ID: <MON.6.DEC.1999.053628.0700.>

Hi,

This will perhaps be considered "deja vu", but I've never seen it discussed
before and would like to know: what is the status of 'Nahuatl' in Mexico
first and in the world today?

Please forgive me if I use some material from a book I once came across
(and have read 3 or 4 times since), namely Bernard Comrie's "The
languages of the Soviet Union", C.U.P. 1981.
1." At one end of the scale, we have languages that are spoken by very
small population groups" (let us say by less than 10,000 people)," that have
no written form, and are normally spoken by people who are bilingual
in one of the larger languages".
2. "Secondly, there are languages that have a written form and are used
to a very limited extent in publication, but are not used as media of
education. In many instances this is a transitional stage in the phasing
out of a written language, since clearly a written language will soon
cease to have an audience if its speakers are not taught how to read it."
One such language is Yiddish in the USSR, another being Kurdish.
3. "The third class in this functional classification is where a language
is used quite extensively in publication (e.g. children's books, basic
political litterature, newspapers, short stories, even novels), and is
also used as the medium of instruction in the first few grades of school,
after which instruction shifts to another language (though the native
language may still be taught as a school subject)". An example is
Chukchi, spoken in East Siberia...
4. "Fourthly, there are languages which are used in a wide range of
publications, including some technical subjects, and are used as media
of education throughout the school system (though often not in further
education)". Examples are Chechen, Abkhaz, Komi, ...
5. Fifthly, there are languages which, in addition to having the above
functions, are also used as educational media in universities, and are
effectively used as co-government languages in the internal adminis-
tration of the corresponding administrative area.
6. Finally only Russian, etc. etc. (Here one should say only Spanish,etc.
etc.)

Now: what happens with Nahuatl? Is instruction provided in the so-called
'classical form' (hope Richard will not scold on this), or otherwise?
What are the numbers? How far is Nahuatl used in the press? How
does it compare with for example Basque and Catalan in Spain today?
Is there an Academy of the Nahuatl Language? What is the situation
now and which are the prospects as to the future?
I shall not give up studying 'Cassical Nahuatl'  whatever the actual
situation of the language, but I would like to learn more about the facts
of yesterday and today...

Thank you.
Best regards,

Leonel


From leonelhermida at netc.pt  Tue Dec  7 11:22:46 1999
From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 04:22:46 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status (ii)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.DEC.1999.042246.0700.>

Hi,

I'm afraid the silence to my query indicates the situation of Nahuatl
is perhaps worse than I foresaw and nobody wants to be the first to
deal with it. After all, what countries were as long-sighted as the Danish
in Greenland (where they promoted Greenlandic (Eskimo) with a
tremendous success)? I remember to have heard when they came to
translate the phrase "lamb of God" in the Bible they had to resort to
"young reindeer of God"!  But people understood and Greenlandic is
thriving nowadays with its 40 or 50 thousand adherents...
But statistics don't offend and I think it is better discuss such a 'delicate'
subject than to ignore it. My own country has also done nothing with
the native languages spoken within its former colonies: zero times zero!...
Spain, France and Brittain did the same inside their frontiers, and only
this century did languages such as Basque and Catalan in Spain and Welsh
and Gaelic (?) in Brittain gain full status as ordinary written languages...
But it is my opinion that the world will be less rich if it allows languages
such as Nahuatl to die out when they can and should be kept alive. I don't
know if a language with less than 10,000 speakers can be reasonably
expected to survive in the modern world, but if 'Mexicano' has perhaps more
than 1,000,000 (as I have heard off-list, because it is known only by
'hear-say' as there are no reliable statistics, I presume), that will be a
disaster to let it die out... Worse still: a language which has a 'classical'
literature and such a facility to form new words would perhaps do better than
most can which have no such ability, in creating its own modern vocabulary!
The discussion of the means by which that can be done are off-topic and
cannot be discussed here. But the number of its speakers, its division into
dialects, and a rough indication of the 'status' of Nahuatl in the world to-day
can and should be spoken of here...

Best regards,

Leonel


From ECOLING at aol.com  Tue Dec  7 16:40:13 1999
From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:40:13 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status (ii)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.DEC.1999.094013.0700.>

Leonel:

Patience.
Responses do not usually come immediately.
I have no personal knowledge, or I would respond.

Lloyd Anderson


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Tue Dec  7 16:44:14 1999
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:44:14 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status (ii)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.DEC.1999.094414.0700.>

I'll answer your query Leonel.  I too have heard that there  are about 1.5
million speakers of Nahuatl.  A friend of mine who is a "danzante" interacted
with fellow Mexicah dancers down in D.F. and according to him the language is
alive and well, in fact, gaining momentum with non-speakers to learn it also.
 It appears that there might be a Nahuatl "fever" spreading throughout Anawak
though here in the U.S. nobody hears about it.  I believe Nahuatl will endure
even with encroachment of Spanish unleashed by the Mexican government's
language policies on its mother tongues.  The majority of Mexicans regard
their native language as socioeconomically backwards even going as far as
expressing self-hatred by labelling Nahuatl speakers as "indio."  Self-hatred
in the sense that these same Mexicans that insult and belittle, not only
Nahuatl speakers but all speakers of an indigenous language, most likely have
native blood running through their veins themselves since about 90% of the
population of Mexico constitutes mixed and full-blooded indigena.  I am
drifting into other topics here, but the bottom line is, Nahuatl will endure.


From hernand at dcsun1.epfl.ch  Tue Dec  7 17:57:09 1999
From: hernand at dcsun1.epfl.ch (Jose Maria Hernandez Gil)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:57:09 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status
Message-ID: <TUE.7.DEC.1999.105709.0700.>

Hello, this is my first post. I have some information and first hand
information that could be interesting. I'm a Spanish-speaking Mexican,
but I'm beginning to learn Nahuatl little by little.

Most statistic I have seen regarding Nahuatl put it at more than 1.2
million. This is the official government data from 1990, so today it
could easily be around 1.5 million (or more). It isn't small at all and
since the population growth rate of Nahuatl-speaking Mexicans is higher
than Spanish-speaking Mexicans, the percentage grows every census. Other
Mexican languages are in much, much worse shape.

Nahuatl as a homogeneous entity does not seem to exist as is. I liken it
to the Schwyzerdutsch in Switzerland. There is a lot of fragmentation and
sometimes the dialects are not intelligible (any additional information
regarding this?)

Written forms of Nahuatl seem to be very chaotic also. The original
people that used Roman script were not very careful and sometimes you see
the same words with multiple variants. Now days, there's also the problem
that some people use english based orthography while others keep the
original orthography. Personally, I prefer the "spanish" based one since
it seems more original and the actual similarities to Iberian Castillian
phonetics is limited at best (the j, c, z, x, tz and tl can confuse
Spaniards.)

Education in Nahuatl has begun to appear recently also, as well as the
other major Mexican languages.  As to the quality of the education I
can't say. Literature also seems to be begin to appear, I even heard that
a novel in Nahuatl won an international native language prize in Cuba a
few years back. There is no higher education in Nahuatl but I think it's
more from lack of demand than by design. Nahuatl (as well as other
Mexican languages) seem to enjoy quite a bit of usage in smaller towns
and villages government, but in larger cities they seem to take a back
seat.

Comparisons between Basque and Catalan would not be useful I think. Both
Euskadi and Catalunya are very industrialized off in comparison to other
regions of Spain, while the opposite is true for the Nahuatl speaking
regions of Mexico. Nor Breton and Corsican (which enjoy absolutely no
official status in France BTW). In Europe, only Irish or Rheto-Rumansch
could compare.

Yaoxochtil is right in the way most Mexicans view Nahuatl although I've
found it's mostly the older people. Younger Mexicans (>25 years) are more
proud of it and see it as a part of their heritage.

I've been to several places where Nahuatl is spoken. It seems to be a
very live language. People make CDs in it and you see little children
speaking it. I do not doubt it will survive, but I wonder as to how it
will live.

Some interesting links follow.

Chema


http://www.sedesol.gob.mx/ini/len9095.htm
http://www.inegi.gob.mx/poblacion/espanol/estudios/censo90.html
http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/countries/Mexi.html



"if, as you say, our gods are dead,
 it is better that you allow us to die too.
 ...
 we cannot be tranquil,
 and yet we certainly do not believe;
 we do not accept your teachings as truth,
 even though this may offend you."

in tlamatinime


From borge at stud.uni-frankfurt.de  Tue Dec  7 18:56:01 1999
From: borge at stud.uni-frankfurt.de (Dino Borgeche)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:56:01 -0700
Subject: nahuatl status (ii)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.DEC.1999.115601.0700.>

Dear Leonel

According to official Mexican statistics, Nahuatl is slowly growing.

1.197.328 were registered as nahuatl speakers in 1990

1.325 440 were registrered as nahuatl speakers in 1995

(source:Instituto Nacional Indigenista
 http://www.sedesol.gob.mx/ini/basica.htm)

The actual number might be somewhat higher, bilingual Meztisos are not
included in this number and I guess INI is likely to underestimate the
number of speakers...

Dino



>Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 11:19:47 +0000
>From: Leonel Hermida <leonelhermida at netc.pt>
>To: nahuat-list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Nahuatl status (ii)
>Message-ID: <00f601bf40a5$325b77e0$c0b912d4 at mop93410>
>
>Hi,
>
>I'm afraid the silence to my query indicates the situation of Nahuatl
>is perhaps worse than I foresaw and nobody wants to be the first to
>deal with it. After all, what countries were as long-sighted as the Danish
>in Greenland (where they promoted Greenlandic (Eskimo) with a
>tremendous success)? I remember to have heard when they came to
>translate the phrase "lamb of God" in the Bible they had to resort to
>"young reindeer of God"!  But people understood and Greenlandic is
>thriving nowadays with its 40 or 50 thousand adherents...
>But statistics don't offend and I think it is better discuss such a 'delicate'
>subject than to ignore it. My own country has also done nothing with
>the native languages spoken within its former colonies: zero times zero!...
>Spain, France and Brittain did the same inside their frontiers, and only
>this century did languages such as Basque and Catalan in Spain and Welsh
>and Gaelic (?) in Brittain gain full status as ordinary written languages...
>But it is my opinion that the world will be less rich if it allows languages
>such as Nahuatl to die out when they can and should be kept alive. I don't
>know if a language with less than 10,000 speakers can be reasonably
>expected to survive in the modern world, but if 'Mexicano' has perhaps more
>than 1,000,000 (as I have heard off-list, because it is known only by
>'hear-say' as there are no reliable statistics, I presume), that will be a
>disaster to let it die out... Worse still: a language which has a 'classical'
>literature and such a facility to form new words would perhaps do better than
>most can which have no such ability, in creating its own modern vocabulary!
>The discussion of the means by which that can be done are off-topic and
>cannot be discussed here. But the number of its speakers, its division into
>dialects, and a rough indication of the 'status' of Nahuatl in the world to-day
>can and should be spoken of here...
>
>Best regards,
>
>Leonel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of NAHUAT-L Digest 874
>**************************
>


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Dec  7 21:17:52 1999
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:17:52 -0700
Subject: List commands
Message-ID: <TUE.7.DEC.1999.141752.0700.>

Dear Subscribers,

In the next few weeks many people will probably be going on vacations of
one sort or another.  While you are gone, please unsubscribe from Nahuat-l.
 This will prevent your electronic mailbox from filling and then sending
error messages back to the rest of the list.  When you return you may
always re-subscribe.

For those of you who have lost the commands here are some instructions:
Commands are sent to listproc at server.umt.edu  with no other contents in the
message than the one line

To Unsubscribe:

unsub nahuat-l

To Subscribe

sub nahuat-l Emiliano Zapata
 (where you substitute your name for Emiliano Zapata)

For further information on the Listproc commands see:
http://www.umt.edu/cis/helpdesk/handouts/listproc.htm

J. F. Schwaller,
List Owner




John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From robc at csufresno.edu  Tue Dec  7 22:40:01 1999
From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert G. Comegys)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:40:01 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status - rumors from California
Message-ID: <TUE.7.DEC.1999.154001.0700.>

Dear nauhuateros and Leonel especially,

Take heart, the Nahuatl may be growing in the underworld.

I have no personal knowledge of this, but my brother who teaches at a junior high
school in the small agricultural town of Madera north of Fresno reports the local
Mexican Mafia gang members are starting to learn nahuatl.

Madera,  like many other small towns in California's central valley, is a terminus
for drugs brought in from Mexico and further south. Fresno and the surrounding
area (including Madera) is traditionally reputed to be neutral territory between
the Los Angeles and San Francisco organized crime syndicates. Last I heard, drugs
in the area are controlled by what we call the Mexican Mafia.

By analogy with the use of gaelic by the IRA and others during the late Irish
rebellion, I would speculate that in a generation or two we may anticipate endowed
chairs in Nahuatl at major universities.

I looked around on the web for evidence of Nahuatl being used by gangs. What I
found was the following: "Pepici kluci pytlici" (accent mark on first i in
pytlici) This heading was followed by or in response to "I want to get high on
mota rica". The message may be found at http://www.cypressonline.com/bbs.htm
I found it by running   "Mexican Mafia" and aztec language  on a search engine.

Anyone want to try their hand at this? Judging by the English and Spanish these
young gangsters use I doubt if it would be in a dictionary. I believe this may be
evidence of what Leonel referred to as Nahuatl's "facility to form new words".

All the best,

John Comegys

Leonel Hermida wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm afraid the silence to my query indicates the situation of Nahuatl
> is perhaps worse than I foresaw ....

> A language which has a 'classical' literature and such a facility to form new
> words would perhaps do better than most can which have no such ability, in
> creating its own modern vocabulary!

> The discussion of the means by which that can be done are off-topic and
> cannot be discussed here.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Leonel


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Dec  7 23:03:08 1999
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:03:08 -0700
Subject: Extent of Nahuatl
Message-ID: <TUE.7.DEC.1999.160308.0700.>

Dear List members,

In the fifteen or so years that I have had the honor of running Nahuat-l
one of the leitmotifs has been the use of Nahuatl in the California prison
system.  A month does not go by that I am not requested to assist an inmate
in learning Nahuatl, or an order for the Foundation Course on Nahuatl.
Similarly individuals who identify themselves as guards also request this
same information.  I have no idea what if any actual activity goes on
behind bars in Nahuatl.  All I can report on is the queries which come to me.

J. F. Schwaller,
List Owner


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From leonelhermida at netc.pt  Thu Dec  9 09:51:00 1999
From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 02:51:00 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status
Message-ID: <THU.9.DEC.1999.025100.0700.>

Hi,

Many thanks to all people who bothered to respond to my query on the
status of the Nahuatl language. One information here, another there and
one feels a little better. I could not check all the links provided by Jose
Maria, probably due to difficulties of communication on the Web but could
find valuable information both at
http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/countries/Mexi.html  and
http://www.inegi.gob.mx/poblacion/espanol/estudios/censo90.html
though the former source lists not less than 27 flavours, varieties or dialects
of Nahuatl as 27 different 'languages'! No wonder it gets a total of 295
'languages' for Mexico (289 of which are living 'languages', so we are told),
which means probably some 10 to 20 different languages (as a guess), all
this for 1991 or so.
I would not object about comparing the state of the Nahuatl dialects in
Mexico with the state of German dialects in Switzerland (or in all the
German speaking area as a whole). I guess mutual intelligibility is probably
low in distant parts of the dialectal chain in both cases but similarities
end here.
Comparing Schwyzerdutsch in Switzerland with Nahuatl in Mexico
would only be reasonable if one were to compare also the number of
Schwyzerdutsch speakers that are litterate in 'Standard German' with
the number of Nahuatl speakers that are litterate in 'Classical Nahuatl'.
Any ideas about the percentages in one case and in the other?

Jose Maria tells us that there is no higher education in Nahuatl but he
thinks it's more 'from lack of demand than by design'. How could it be
otherwise when we learn that education in Nahuatl is barely beginning
as is also litterary production?
I think what is urgent now in all the Nahuatl speaking areas is the
implementation of a net of grade schools (perhaps you would have to
form teachers, first...), but that is only possible if all Mexican people
is really disposed to pay for it and begins to act without delay. Be
sure no one is going to do it for you. I would bet it is also the best as
a vaccination against 'revolutions'...( You have the examples of the IRA
in Ireland and the ETA in Spain!). What the hell are you waiting for??

Thank you.
Best regards,
Leonel


-----Original Message-----
From: Jose Maria Hernandez Gil <hernand at dcsun1.epfl.ch>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: Nahuatl status


>Hello, this is my first post. I have some information and first hand
>information that could be interesting. I'm a Spanish-speaking Mexican,
>but I'm beginning to learn Nahuatl little by little.
>
>Most statistic I have seen regarding Nahuatl put it at more than 1.2
>million. This is the official government data from 1990, so today it
>could easily be around 1.5 million (or more). It isn't small at all and
>since the population growth rate of Nahuatl-speaking Mexicans is higher
>than Spanish-speaking Mexicans, the percentage grows every census. Other
>Mexican languages are in much, much worse shape.
>
>Nahuatl as a homogeneous entity does not seem to exist as is. I liken it
>to the Schwyzerdutsch in Switzerland. There is a lot of fragmentation and
>sometimes the dialects are not intelligible (any additional information
>regarding this?)
>
>Written forms of Nahuatl seem to be very chaotic also. The original
>people that used Roman script were not very careful and sometimes you see
>the same words with multiple variants. Now days, there's also the problem
>that some people use english based orthography while others keep the
>original orthography. Personally, I prefer the "spanish" based one since
>it seems more original and the actual similarities to Iberian Castillian
>phonetics is limited at best (the j, c, z, x, tz and tl can confuse
>Spaniards.)
>
>Education in Nahuatl has begun to appear recently also, as well as the
>other major Mexican languages.  As to the quality of the education I
>can't say. Literature also seems to be begin to appear, I even heard that
>a novel in Nahuatl won an international native language prize in Cuba a
>few years back. There is no higher education in Nahuatl but I think it's
>more from lack of demand than by design. Nahuatl (as well as other
>Mexican languages) seem to enjoy quite a bit of usage in smaller towns
>and villages government, but in larger cities they seem to take a back
>seat.
>
>Comparisons between Basque and Catalan would not be useful I think. Both
>Euskadi and Catalunya are very industrialized off in comparison to other
>regions of Spain, while the opposite is true for the Nahuatl speaking
>regions of Mexico. Nor Breton and Corsican (which enjoy absolutely no
>official status in France BTW). In Europe, only Irish or Rheto-Rumansch
>could compare.
>
>Yaoxochtil is right in the way most Mexicans view Nahuatl although I've
>found it's mostly the older people. Younger Mexicans (>25 years) are more
>proud of it and see it as a part of their heritage.
>
>I've been to several places where Nahuatl is spoken. It seems to be a
>very live language. People make CDs in it and you see little children
>speaking it. I do not doubt it will survive, but I wonder as to how it
>will live.
>
>Some interesting links follow.
>
>Chema
>
>
>http://www.sedesol.gob.mx/ini/len9095.htm
>http://www.inegi.gob.mx/poblacion/espanol/estudios/censo90.html
>http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/countries/Mexi.html
>
>
>
>"if, as you say, our gods are dead,
> it is better that you allow us to die too.
> ...
> we cannot be tranquil,
> and yet we certainly do not believe;
> we do not accept your teachings as truth,
> even though this may offend you."
>
>in tlamatinime
>


From leonelhermida at netc.pt  Thu Dec  9 13:43:07 1999
From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 06:43:07 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status (bis)
Message-ID: <THU.9.DEC.1999.064307.0700.>

Of course what I meant by  'a net of grade schools' was 'a true (not
half-hearted) net of schools providing basic instruction in Nahuatl for
all Nahuatl-speaking children at least for the first few grades (to
begin with)'. And if it is urged that there is no accepted standard for
the language, the answer is by remarking there is 'Classical Nahuatl'
(Arab-speaking countries do it with 'Classical Arabic') and traditional
orthography based in that of Spanish is not that bad and would be
perhaps the most economical choice. (Of course if one began from
scratch one could achieve better, but you are not beginning from
scratch...)

Best,
Leonel


-----Original Message-----
From: Leonel Hermida <leonelhermida at netc.pt>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: Thursday, December 09, 1999 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: Nahuatl status



>I think what is urgent now in all the Nahuatl speaking areas is the
>implementation of a net of grade schools (perhaps you would have to
>form teachers, first...), but that is only possible if all Mexican people
>is really disposed to pay for it and begins to act without delay. Be
>sure no one is going to do it for you. I would bet it is also the best as
>a vaccination against 'revolutions'...( You have the examples of the IRA
>in Ireland and the ETA in Spain!). What the hell are you waiting for??
>
>Thank you.
>Best regards,
>Leonel
>
>


From mikegaby at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 10 20:38:14 1999
From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:38:14 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status (ii)
Message-ID: <FRI.10.DEC.1999.133814.0700.>

Nahuatl is alive and well in the california penal system.  Inmates use it as
a coded language the guards cannot understand
Mike


>From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com
>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: Nahuatl status (ii)
>Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:44:36 -0700
>
>I'll answer your query Leonel.  I too have heard that there  are about 1.5
>million speakers of Nahuatl.  A friend of mine who is a "danzante"
>interacted
>with fellow Mexicah dancers down in D.F. and according to him the language
>is
>alive and well, in fact, gaining momentum with non-speakers to learn it
>also.
>  It appears that there might be a Nahuatl "fever" spreading throughout
>Anawak
>though here in the U.S. nobody hears about it.  I believe Nahuatl will
>endure
>even with encroachment of Spanish unleashed by the Mexican government's
>language policies on its mother tongues.  The majority of Mexicans regard
>their native language as socioeconomically backwards even going as far as
>expressing self-hatred by labelling Nahuatl speakers as "indio."
>Self-hatred
>in the sense that these same Mexicans that insult and belittle, not only
>Nahuatl speakers but all speakers of an indigenous language, most likely
>have
>native blood running through their veins themselves since about 90% of the
>population of Mexico constitutes mixed and full-blooded indigena.  I am
>drifting into other topics here, but the bottom line is, Nahuatl will
>endure.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From mikegaby at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 10 20:42:57 1999
From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:42:57 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status - rumors from California
Message-ID: <FRI.10.DEC.1999.134257.0700.>

San Diego gangs have also adopted Nahuatl words into their language, most
likely corrupted, just as ASL has been corrupted and is now used to signify
their affiliations through hand gestures.
Mike


>From: "Robert G. Comegys" <robc at csufresno.edu>
>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Nahuatl status - rumors from California
>Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:40:27 -0700
>
>Dear nauhuateros and Leonel especially,
>
>Take heart, the Nahuatl may be growing in the underworld.
>
>I have no personal knowledge of this, but my brother who teaches at a
>junior high
>school in the small agricultural town of Madera north of Fresno reports the
>local
>Mexican Mafia gang members are starting to learn nahuatl.
>
>Madera,  like many other small towns in California's central valley, is a
>terminus
>for drugs brought in from Mexico and further south. Fresno and the
>surrounding
>area (including Madera) is traditionally reputed to be neutral territory
>between
>the Los Angeles and San Francisco organized crime syndicates. Last I heard,
>drugs
>in the area are controlled by what we call the Mexican Mafia.
>
>By analogy with the use of gaelic by the IRA and others during the late
>Irish
>rebellion, I would speculate that in a generation or two we may anticipate
>endowed
>chairs in Nahuatl at major universities.
>
>I looked around on the web for evidence of Nahuatl being used by gangs.
>What I
>found was the following: "Pepici kluci pytlici" (accent mark on first i in
>pytlici) This heading was followed by or in response to "I want to get high
>on
>mota rica". The message may be found at
>http://www.cypressonline.com/bbs.htm
>I found it by running   "Mexican Mafia" and aztec language  on a search
>engine.
>
>Anyone want to try their hand at this? Judging by the English and Spanish
>these
>young gangsters use I doubt if it would be in a dictionary. I believe this
>may be
>evidence of what Leonel referred to as Nahuatl's "facility to form new
>words".
>
>All the best,
>
>John Comegys
>
>Leonel Hermida wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm afraid the silence to my query indicates the situation of Nahuatl
> > is perhaps worse than I foresaw ....
>
> > A language which has a 'classical' literature and such a facility to
>form new
> > words would perhaps do better than most can which have no such ability,
>in
> > creating its own modern vocabulary!
>
> > The discussion of the means by which that can be done are off-topic and
> > cannot be discussed here.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Leonel
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From mexicapride at earthlink.net  Mon Dec 13 18:51:15 1999
From: mexicapride at earthlink.net (Tekpatltzin)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:51:15 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status - rumors from California
Message-ID: <MON.13.DEC.1999.115115.0700.>

Tiahui Listeros and Robert,

Just returned from a trip to Mexico to find this email re: Nahuatl use by Mexika
inmates in California. I write a MexiKa Consciousness newsletter that is distributed
to over 300 inmates throughout the US, especially to the prisons in Califas. The use
of Nahuatl by inmates is not a recent occurance. I know many of the inmates first
hand having participated in ceremonies with them. I would like to say that some of
the inmates have indeed used the Nahutal language to further thier own agendas. But
there is a vast majority that do not use the language in a negative fashion.My
newsletter talks about this matter. I am making this short as I do not have much time
at the moment. If any of you wish to learn more about this issue please feel free to
contact me. It is indeed a very sensitive issue especially when talking about La EME
(Mexcian Mafia).

Tlazohkamati,

Tekpatltzin



"Robert G. Comegys" wrote:

> Dear nauhuateros and Leonel especially,
>
> Take heart, the Nahuatl may be growing in the underworld.
>
> I have no personal knowledge of this, but my brother who teaches at a junior high
> school in the small agricultural town of Madera north of Fresno reports the local
> Mexican Mafia gang members are starting to learn nahuatl.
>
> Madera,  like many other small towns in California's central valley, is a terminus
> for drugs brought in from Mexico and further south. Fresno and the surrounding
> area (including Madera) is traditionally reputed to be neutral territory between
> the Los Angeles and San Francisco organized crime syndicates. Last I heard, drugs
> in the area are controlled by what we call the Mexican Mafia.
>


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Mon Dec 13 19:19:27 1999
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:19:27 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status - rumors from California
Message-ID: <MON.13.DEC.1999.121927.0700.>

Tekpatl,
     I would like more info. on this matter.  Please email me at
Yaoxochitl at aol.com


From Richard.Haly at colorado.edu  Mon Dec 13 23:08:09 1999
From: Richard.Haly at colorado.edu (Richard Haly)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:08:09 -0700
Subject: Ma: Toltecs ?!!!
Message-ID: <MON.13.DEC.1999.160809.0700.>

Thanks, Jorge for taking the time to summarize all these findings. To
believe Nahua accounts of the "Toltecs" is tantamount to believing PRI
accounts of the Nahuas. Both have significant "nationalist" agendas.

Best,

Richard=20


>=20
> Having received many private communications of objections or questions
> raised by my previous reticence to accept the word "Toltec" in associatio=
n
> with Chich'en Itza (and the concept "Toltec" in general), I think it is
> better to try and explain myself on-list, so here goes:
>=20
> Some of the many problems of "Toltecs" overrunning, conquering and ruling
> Chich'en Itza include:
>=20
> 1. Despite the very evident artistic style change (as compared to Classic
> Maya style) that one can see in Chich'en Itza, the fact is that even the
> most recent buildings at that ancient city date from the end of the IX
> Century, almost 200 years before Tula, Hidalgo came into existence. Since
> the only people that are known as Toltec in Mesoamerica are the people wh=
o
> built Tula, Hidalgo, when somebody speaks of Toltecs ruling (and building=
)
> Chichen Itza, they run into an impossible-to-resolve time discrepancy.
>=20
> This long-lived confusion was created before finer dating methods came
> along:  Acosta, the archaeologist who restored the Temple of the Warriors
> at Chich'en Itza, moved on later to restore the platform of the "Atlantes=
"
> at Tula, Hidalgo and most probably allowed his interpretation of this
> platform to be influenced by his previous work in Chich'en. This accounts
> for an introduced "resemblance" between the two structures, which has bee=
n
> for a long time one of the central arguments for an alleged Toltec
> intervention in Chich'en. The fact is that many archaeologists are now
> deeply dissatisfied with Acosta's restoration work at Tula, particularly
> with his interpretation of the original appearance the platform of the
> Atlantes must have had.
>=20
> Even discounting the temporal impossibility alluded to in the previous
> paragraph, the comparatively puny size of Tula, Hidalgo as compared to
> Chich'en Itza (does it sound logical that a provincial colony should be
> much larger than the metropolis that conquered it?) would make of itself =
a
> strong argument against a Tula takeover of Chich'en Itza. Furthermore, if
> Tula was as powerful as it would have needed to be to conquer and establi=
sh
> such a prosperous colony 1,500 miles away from its heartland, why is ther=
e
> an absolute lack of evidence of other Tula-conquered territories/cities
> between Hidalgo and Yucatan?
>=20
> 2. To compound the iron-clad argument stemming from the impossibility of =
a
> possible contemporaneity between Chich'en Itza and Tula, there are also a
> myriad problems with the identification as Toltecs of the inhabitants of
> the site we now know as Tula, Hidalgo: we have no evidence that the
> inhabitants of this highland city were known as "Toltecs" in their own
> time. The names by which we now know them and their city were given to th=
em
> by the much later Aztec, when the city itself was already an old ruin and
> the civilization that had built it had passed. The fact that it is now
> known that the term "Tollan" (i.e., Tula) was high-powered political
> currency throughout the history of Mesoamerica further muddles the pictur=
e.
> "Tollan" may have been the name many important cities (such as Teotihuaca=
n,
> Tikal or Copan) may have given themselves at different points in time. Do=
es
> this make teotihuacanos, tikale=F1os or copanecos "Toltec"? Well... yes and
> no (but this is another story).
>=20
> 3. Every single text in Chichen Itza is written in Mayan, using Maya
> glyphs. Is there a great likelihood that invaders would leave records of
> their deeds in a language that was not theirs? The fact that the Chich'en
> Maya (a group that migrated from the Central Peten and who were known as
> 'Itza') were probably under heavy influence (as can be seen in the new ar=
t
> style) of some form of Central Mexican culture, probably through Gulf
> coastal trade, does not inescapably led to the conclusion that they were
> governed by Central Mexicans, Toltecs or otherwise. The arguments against
> this ever happening are, however, beyond the scope of an Aztlan posting.
>=20
> I think that the most likely explanation of what one sees in Chich'en
> Itza and other sites in Northern Yucatan during the terminal Classic is a
> breakdown of the old order (the phenomenon known as the Classic collapse)
> and a regrouping of the populations around new foci of power, some of whi=
ch
> probably emerged through control of trade. There is, for example, evidenc=
e
> for maritime trade by Chich'en Itza through a port in Isla Cerritos, not
> far from present-day Rio Lagartos. It is not inconceivable that the new
> order would have been more outward-looking than the previous one given a
> more heavy dependence on trade and the more frequent contact with
> foreigners this would have brought. This would have shown in the
> incorporation of foreign styles in art and architecture. Still, we have y=
et
> to come across any real evidence of foreign control in Maya territory.
>=20
> The books of Chilam Balam speak of many migrations and takeovers through
> time by different groups in the Yucatan peninsula. However heavily
> influenced by Central Mexican culture these groups (such as the Itza, the
> Cocom or the Xiu) may have been, there is still little doubt that they we=
re
> Maya. Linguistic evidence from the time of Spanish contact further
> reinforces this: the only language spoken in the whole peninsula was
> Yucatec Mayan.
>=20
> By the way, a wonderful rebuttal of one of Thompson's favorite examples
> of Putun takeover in the Central Peten (Seibal's late monuments) can be
> read in the Seibal chapter of Linda Schele's and Peter Mathews' 'Code of
> Kings'.
>=20
> Jorge Perez de Lara
> Mexico
>=20
> jorgepl at infosel.net.mx


From nancy at interfold.com  Tue Dec 14 07:27:03 1999
From: nancy at interfold.com (Nancy Feldman)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 00:27:03 -0700
Subject: Vocabulary Questions and Learning Nahuatl On-Line
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.002703.0700.>

To start off with, for a literary project I'm undertaking I'm needing the
translations of a few words, and I was hoping the list could help.  They're
primarily fairly simple, I think:

blue
red
black
white
green
bedchamber
garden
courtyard
library
sacrifice (noun)

As I've begun to study the Aztecs, I've wanted to read some things written
in their native language, and have wondered how best to begin the process of
learning the language.  Is there anyone on-line who would be willing to work
with me, or point me toward appropriate on-line lessons?  Are there any
vocabularies on-line, or that someone can send me?  Any help would be
appreciated.

Nancy


From mikenaim at bellsouth.net  Tue Dec 14 10:09:53 1999
From: mikenaim at bellsouth.net (Amy)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 03:09:53 -0700
Subject: Vocabulary Questions and Learning Nahuatl On-Line
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.030953.0700.>

> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3027993173_89199_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

I am trying to learn Nahuatl myself (and Spanish). Here are a few resources
that are quite interesting.I don't have any references here at home from
which I can look up those specific words. But, there also some Nahuatl
dictionaries that you can probably access at a University library. You may
also want to search
for used books on the subject.
http://www.bookfinder.com/

Here is a web site for the Nahuatl Language Institute at Yale University.
There are a few on-line lessons. They aren't easy. But, anything helps:

http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl/main/indexles.html

Here are some other interesting resources:

Lockhart, James. The Nahuas After the Conquest: A Social and CUltural
History of the Indians of             Central Mexico, Sixteenth through
Eighteenth Centuries. Stanford: Stanford University Press, 1992.

Lockhart, James, ed. We People Here: Nahuatl Accounts of the Conquest of
Mexico. Repertorium   Columbianum: Volume 1. Berkeley: University of
California Press, 1993.

Leon-Portilla, Miguel, ed. The Broken Spears: The Aztec Account of the
Conquest of Mexico. Boston: Beacon Press,1992.

Leon-Portilla, Miguel. Aztec Thought and Culture: A study of the Ancient
Nahuatl Mind. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press,1963.

Leon-Portilla, Miguel. Pre-Columbian Literatures of Mexico. Norman:
University of Oklahoma Press,1968


Here is a web site for the Nahuatl Language Institute at Yale University.
There are a few on-line lessons. They aren't easy. But, anything helps:

http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl/main/indexles.html

If you need any more info, feel free to e-mail me.

Amy Kinney


--MS_Mac_OE_3027993173_89199_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: Vocabulary Questions and Learning Nahuatl On-Line</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
Nancy,<BR>
<BR>
I am trying to learn Nahuatl myself (and Spanish). Here are a few resources=
 that are quite interesting.I don't have any references here at home from wh=
ich I can look up those specific words. But, there also some Nahuatl diction=
aries that you can probably access at a University library. You may also wan=
t to search <BR>
for used books on the subject.<BR>
http://www.bookfinder.com/<BR>
<BR>
Here is a web site for the Nahuatl Language Institute at Yale University. T=
here are a few on-line lessons. They aren't easy. But, anything helps:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl/main/indexles.html<BR>
<BR>
Here are some other interesting resources:<BR>
<BR>
Lockhart, James. <I>The Nahuas After the Conquest: A Social and CUltural Hi=
story of the Indians of &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Central Mexico, Sixteenth through Eighteenth Centuries.<=
/I> Stanford: Stanford University Press, 1992.<BR>
<BR>
Lockhart, James, ed. <I>We People Here: Nahuatl Accounts of the Conquest of=
 Mexico.</I> Repertorium &nbsp;&nbsp;Columbianum: Volume 1. Berkeley: Univer=
sity of California Press, 1993.<BR>
<BR>
Leon-Portilla, Miguel, ed. <I>The Broken Spears: The Aztec Account of the C=
onquest of Mexico.</I> Boston: Beacon Press,1992.<BR>
<BR>
Leon-Portilla, Miguel. <I>Aztec Thought and Culture: A study of the Ancient=
 Nahuatl Mind.</I> Norman: University of Oklahoma Press,1963.<BR>
<BR>
Leon-Portilla, Miguel. <I>Pre-Columbian Literatures of Mexico.</I> Norman: =
University of Oklahoma Press,1968<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Here is a web site for the Nahuatl Language Institute at Yale University. T=
here are a few on-line lessons. They aren't easy. But, anything helps:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl/main/indexles.html<BR>
<BR>
If you need any more info, feel free to e-mail me.<BR>
<BR>
Amy Kinney<BR>
<BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>

--MS_Mac_OE_3027993173_89199_MIME_Part--


From leonelhermida at netc.pt  Tue Dec 14 10:37:15 1999
From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 03:37:15 -0700
Subject: Learning Nahuatl On-Line
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.033715.0700.>

Hi Nancy,

I am myself a beginner (2 and a half months) so I could not teach you,
but the following are sites from where you could learn some basic
things (the sources are first order ones that you can trust).

http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl/nahuatl.html
http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl/nahugram.html
http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl/nahuatllessons/INL-00.html

http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/gateway.html
http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/nahmorph.htm
http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/florent.txt

If you have any basic difficulties that you don't want to spam the 'List' with
please feel free to contact me off-list. Perhaps I've had the same doubts...

Best regards,

Leonel


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Dec 14 15:26:22 1999
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:26:22 -0700
Subject: Learning Nahuatl On-Line
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.082622.0700.>

Dear Nancy

While there is no authoritative on-line course on Nahuatl, there is a good
textbook for beginners available through the mail.  It was written by R.
Joe Campbell and Frances Karttunen.  For information of acquiring it look
at the following:

http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/hotlinks.htm

J. F. Schwaller,
List Owner


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Dec 14 15:53:04 1999
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:53:04 -0700
Subject: Vocabulary Questions and Learning Nahuatl On-Line
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.085304.0700.>

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Nancy Feldman wrote:

> To start off with, for a literary project I'm undertaking I'm needing the
> translations of a few words, and I was hoping the list could help.  They're
> primarily fairly simple, I think:
>

Nancy Feldman,

I would suggest Campbell and Kartunnens introduction to Nahuatl that is
available from the owner of this list, Fritz Schwaller.  In the meantime,
here are the translations to your words:




> blue: texohtic
> red: chihchiltic
> black: tliltic
> white: iztac
> green: xoxoctic
> bedchamber: cochihuayan
> garden: xochitla (flower garden)
> courtyard: I dont know: I do know ballcourt: tlachtli
> library: amoxcalli
> sacrifice (noun): tlamictiliztli
>


Best,

Michael McCafferty


From dfrye at umich.edu  Tue Dec 14 16:30:07 1999
From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:30:07 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl On-Line, and a question
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.093007.0700.>

First, here is my chicken-and-egg question: I assume that there is a close
relation between "chihchiltic" red and "chilli" chile (pepper), but which
came first?

Second, here is my list of Nahuatl links, with the caveat that I have not
checked out all of them recently. (Please don't include the list if you
reply to the short question above!)


John Schwaller's University of Montana Nahuatl home page:
http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/

Joe Campbell's Tri-dialectical Nahuatl vocabulary:
http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/multidia.htm

A preliminary version of a dictionary of Ameyaltepec Nahuatl is posted at
http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl (click on Dictionary)

An excellent Prehispanic Calendars site:
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/calendar.html

The Aztec calendar pages:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~voorburg/aztec.html.

"Check out our site to see what modern day Mexica are up to":
http://www.mexica-movement.org

Tezozomoc's Nahuatl Home page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/4325/nahuatl.html
New pages relating to nahua spirituality:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/4325/tloque.html

The University of Pennsylvania Library has a new web page dealing with
items which might be of interest to scholars of Nahuatl:
 http://www.library.upenn.edu/special/gallery/kislak/index/cultural.html

The Templo Mayor Museum (INAH) has a new web site (via Arizona State); the
extensive pages include instructional guides to the Aztec culture and many
photos useful for Mesoamerican students:
http://archaeology.la.asu.edu/vm/mesoam/tm/pages2/index2.htm

Tom Fredericksen's "Aztec On-Line Student/Teacher Resource Center":
http://members.aol.com/spdtom/index.html

David Jordan's Web site has information on Nahuatl pronunciation:
http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl.html.

Spanish website for kids, some sections in Nahuatl:
http://www.kokone.com.mx

Jeff MacSwan's (UCLA, 1997) dissertation,'A Minimalist Approach to
Intrasentential Code Switching: Spanish-Nahuatl Bilingualism in Central
Mexico' (.pdf format):
http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/people/macswan/diss.html

Mole recipe:
http://www.slip.net/~bobnemo/mole.html

nice site on Nahuatl medicine:
http://www.mexicodesconocido.com.mx/hierbas/mednahua.htm

The Aztec Student Tearcher Resource Center page at:
http://members.aol.com/SPDTOM/index.html

The Azteca Web page at:
http://www.azteca.net/aztec/

The Mesoamerican Archeology Web page at:
http://copan.bioz.unibas.ch/meso.html

The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Mesoamerica at:
http://www.cultures.com/meso_resources/meso_encyclopedia/
meso_encyclopedia_home.html


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Tue Dec 14 17:07:23 1999
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:07:23 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl On-Line, and a question
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.100723.0700.>

Chilli came first in the Mexico basin, way before Nahuatl came.


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Dec 14 17:10:17 1999
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:10:17 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl On-Line, and a question
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.101017.0700.>

the pepper came first. salt came first for white, etc.


On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, David L. Frye wrote:

> First, here is my chicken-and-egg question: I assume that there is a close
> relation between "chihchiltic" red and "chilli" chile (pepper), but which
> came first?
>
> Second, here is my list of Nahuatl links, with the caveat that I have not
> checked out all of them recently. (Please don't include the list if you
> reply to the short question above!)
>
>
> John Schwaller's University of Montana Nahuatl home page:
> http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/
>
> Joe Campbell's Tri-dialectical Nahuatl vocabulary:
> http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/multidia.htm
>
> A preliminary version of a dictionary of Ameyaltepec Nahuatl is posted at
> http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl (click on Dictionary)
>
> An excellent Prehispanic Calendars site:
> http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/calendar.html
>
> The Aztec calendar pages:
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~voorburg/aztec.html.
>
> "Check out our site to see what modern day Mexica are up to":
> http://www.mexica-movement.org
>
> Tezozomoc's Nahuatl Home page:
> http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/4325/nahuatl.html
> New pages relating to nahua spirituality:
> http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/4325/tloque.html
>
> The University of Pennsylvania Library has a new web page dealing with
> items which might be of interest to scholars of Nahuatl:
>  http://www.library.upenn.edu/special/gallery/kislak/index/cultural.html
>
> The Templo Mayor Museum (INAH) has a new web site (via Arizona State); the
> extensive pages include instructional guides to the Aztec culture and many
> photos useful for Mesoamerican students:
> http://archaeology.la.asu.edu/vm/mesoam/tm/pages2/index2.htm
>
> Tom Fredericksen's "Aztec On-Line Student/Teacher Resource Center":
> http://members.aol.com/spdtom/index.html
>
> David Jordan's Web site has information on Nahuatl pronunciation:
> http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl.html.
>
> Spanish website for kids, some sections in Nahuatl:
> http://www.kokone.com.mx
>
> Jeff MacSwan's (UCLA, 1997) dissertation,'A Minimalist Approach to
> Intrasentential Code Switching: Spanish-Nahuatl Bilingualism in Central
> Mexico' (.pdf format):
> http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/people/macswan/diss.html
>
> Mole recipe:
> http://www.slip.net/~bobnemo/mole.html
>
> nice site on Nahuatl medicine:
> http://www.mexicodesconocido.com.mx/hierbas/mednahua.htm
>
> The Aztec Student Tearcher Resource Center page at:
> http://members.aol.com/SPDTOM/index.html
>
> The Azteca Web page at:
> http://www.azteca.net/aztec/
>
> The Mesoamerican Archeology Web page at:
> http://copan.bioz.unibas.ch/meso.html
>
> The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Mesoamerica at:
> http://www.cultures.com/meso_resources/meso_encyclopedia/
> meso_encyclopedia_home.html
>


Michael McCafferty
C.E.L.T.
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

*******************************************************************************
"Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
from the me that others don't know
to the other me that I don't know.

-Juan Ramon Jimenez

*******************************************************************************


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Dec 14 17:24:43 1999
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:24:43 -0700
Subject: Color questions
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.102443.0700.>

Does anyone know the reconstructed form for red in proto-Uto-Aztecan.

Were the ancestors of the Nahuatl-speaking groups agricultural folks
before they landed in the Valley of Mexico.

Was chihchiltic their word for red when they were pre-agricultural.


It only stands to reason that  an agricultural people would use the name
for an important, red food for their word for red. The proto-Algonquian
term for blood mec,kwi- became the term for red in most of the descendant
languages of these hunting people.


Michael
On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, David L. Frye wrote:

> First, here is my chicken-and-egg question: I assume that there is a close
> relation between "chihchiltic" red and "chilli" chile (pepper), but which
> came first?
>
> Second, here is my list of Nahuatl links, with the caveat that I have not
> checked out all of them recently. (Please don't include the list if you
> reply to the short question above!)
>
>
> John Schwaller's University of Montana Nahuatl home page:
> http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/
>
> Joe Campbell's Tri-dialectical Nahuatl vocabulary:
> http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/multidia.htm
>
> A preliminary version of a dictionary of Ameyaltepec Nahuatl is posted at
> http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl (click on Dictionary)
>
> An excellent Prehispanic Calendars site:
> http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/calendar.html
>
> The Aztec calendar pages:
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~voorburg/aztec.html.
>
> "Check out our site to see what modern day Mexica are up to":
> http://www.mexica-movement.org
>
> Tezozomoc's Nahuatl Home page:
> http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/4325/nahuatl.html
> New pages relating to nahua spirituality:
> http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/4325/tloque.html
>
> The University of Pennsylvania Library has a new web page dealing with
> items which might be of interest to scholars of Nahuatl:
>  http://www.library.upenn.edu/special/gallery/kislak/index/cultural.html
>
> The Templo Mayor Museum (INAH) has a new web site (via Arizona State); the
> extensive pages include instructional guides to the Aztec culture and many
> photos useful for Mesoamerican students:
> http://archaeology.la.asu.edu/vm/mesoam/tm/pages2/index2.htm
>
> Tom Fredericksen's "Aztec On-Line Student/Teacher Resource Center":
> http://members.aol.com/spdtom/index.html
>
> David Jordan's Web site has information on Nahuatl pronunciation:
> http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl.html.
>
> Spanish website for kids, some sections in Nahuatl:
> http://www.kokone.com.mx
>
> Jeff MacSwan's (UCLA, 1997) dissertation,'A Minimalist Approach to
> Intrasentential Code Switching: Spanish-Nahuatl Bilingualism in Central
> Mexico' (.pdf format):
> http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/people/macswan/diss.html
>
> Mole recipe:
> http://www.slip.net/~bobnemo/mole.html
>
> nice site on Nahuatl medicine:
> http://www.mexicodesconocido.com.mx/hierbas/mednahua.htm
>
> The Aztec Student Tearcher Resource Center page at:
> http://members.aol.com/SPDTOM/index.html
>
> The Azteca Web page at:
> http://www.azteca.net/aztec/
>
> The Mesoamerican Archeology Web page at:
> http://copan.bioz.unibas.ch/meso.html
>
> The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Mesoamerica at:
> http://www.cultures.com/meso_resources/meso_encyclopedia/
> meso_encyclopedia_home.html
>


Michael McCafferty
C.E.L.T.
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

*******************************************************************************
"Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
from the me that others don't know
to the other me that I don't know.

-Juan Ramon Jimenez

*******************************************************************************


From hernand at dcsun1.epfl.ch  Tue Dec 14 18:56:00 1999
From: hernand at dcsun1.epfl.ch (Jose Maria Hernandez Gil)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:56:00 -0700
Subject: Color questions
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.115600.0700.>

To my knowledge, the Mexica arrived in Aztlan around the time Teotihuacan
started to become a power (200-400 CE). Unless they went from being
agricultural to nomadic, they were not agricultural until well into this
millenium (around 1250?), when Tula fell and the Chichimeca started
entering the Anahuac and eventually the Valley. Perhaps other Nahuatl
speaking people were agricultural before, but I do not think that it is
+-200 years.

As to chilli being the root/derivative of chihchiltic, I would guess no.
First of all, chiles are always red (in fact the hottest ones I've tasted
were yellow) and most, I would say, are green. Anyway, given the common
nature of color, I would assume chihchiltic was in use well before the
arrival of the Mexica in Anahuac, before they came across chile. Perhaps
it might be related to a third word or be borrowed from a previous
language (my guess) and merely adapted to Nahuatl.

My 2 cents...
>
>Does anyone know the reconstructed form for red in proto-Uto-Aztecan.
>
>Were the ancestors of the Nahuatl-speaking groups agricultural folks
>before they landed in the Valley of Mexico.
>
>Was chihchiltic their word for red when they were pre-agricultural.
>
>
>It only stands to reason that  an agricultural people would use the name
>for an important, red food for their word for red. The proto-Algonquian
>term for blood mec,kwi- became the term for red in most of the descendant
>languages of these hunting people.


  ------------------------

  Jos=E9 Mar=EDa Hern=E1ndez
  Swiss Federal Institute of Technology - Lausanne
  Telephone: +41 21 / 693-5528


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Dec 14 21:05:57 1999
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:05:57 -0700
Subject: Dia de Guadalupe
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.140557.0700.>

On SUnday, National Public Radio on their program Sunday Weekedn Editon did
a 16 minute interview with Christopher Moroney, director of the San Antonio
Vocal Arts Ensemble, on the event of the release of their CD El Milagro de
Guadalupe (Iago/Talking Music IAGOCD214) which recreates some of the music
that might have been heard in the 1500's.  There are some real gaff's
regarding the Story of Guadalupe, but its is interesting.  You need Real
Audio to listen.  It is the last entry on the following page:

http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnpd01fm.cfm?PrgDate=12/12/1999&PrgID=10

J. F. Schwaller
List Owner


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Wed Dec 15 14:57:44 1999
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:57:44 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl On-Line, and a question
Message-ID: <WED.15.DEC.1999.075744.0700.>

I'm working under the assumption that the "chihchil" in "chihchiltic" is
actually a reduplicated "chilli". Concerning the origin of the word, it seems
to me that if Nahuatl speakers were conscious enough of the way they were
constructing words using this "-tic", then they may have changed their word
for colors as needed to maintain a direct relationship to their environment.
So, it doesn't seem too unlikely that they had a different word or even
multiple words for red before settling down as an agricultural society.
>>From a grammatical point of view, it seems to me that "chilli" would have to
come first because the "-tic" is a suffix ("ti" + past tense marker "c") added
to nouns to form adjectives. Here are some other examples:

acaltic = acalli (atl+calli=canoe) + ti + c = grooved
amatic=amatl (paper) + ti + c = papery
caxtic=caxitl (plate) + ti + c = concave
neltic=nelli (truth) + ti + c = true
nuectic=nuectli (honey) + ti + c = sweet
paltic= p/atl (water) + ti + c = watery, runny ["atl" originally began with
/p/. It seems that other Uto-Aztecan languages conserved the /p/ in their
words for water.]

I think that the "ti" makes the noun a verb meaning "to become", which then
takes the past tense "c". So, literally the prase would be something like "it
became red / like a chilli". But it functions similar to an adjective.

Galen


From campbel at indiana.edu  Wed Dec 15 17:11:53 1999
From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:11:53 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl On-Line, and a question
Message-ID: <WED.15.DEC.1999.101153.0700.>

Galen,

   I am really glad that you said that!  --And clearly and convincingly...
I was getting worried about the way we approached words and the things
they apply to.

All the best,

Joe



On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Galen Brokaw wrote:

> I'm working under the assumption that the "chihchil" in "chihchiltic" is
> actually a reduplicated "chilli". Concerning the origin of the word, it seems
> to me that if Nahuatl speakers were conscious enough of the way they were
> constructing words using this "-tic", then they may have changed their word
> for colors as needed to maintain a direct relationship to their environment.
> So, it doesn't seem too unlikely that they had a different word or even
> multiple words for red before settling down as an agricultural society.
> >From a grammatical point of view, it seems to me that "chilli" would have to
> come first because the "-tic" is a suffix ("ti" + past tense marker "c") added
> to nouns to form adjectives. Here are some other examples:
>
> acaltic = acalli (atl+calli=canoe) + ti + c = grooved
> amatic=amatl (paper) + ti + c = papery
> caxtic=caxitl (plate) + ti + c = concave
> neltic=nelli (truth) + ti + c = true
> nuectic=nuectli (honey) + ti + c = sweet
> paltic= p/atl (water) + ti + c = watery, runny ["atl" originally began with
> /p/. It seems that other Uto-Aztecan languages conserved the /p/ in their
> words for water.]
>
> I think that the "ti" makes the noun a verb meaning "to become", which then
> takes the past tense "c". So, literally the prase would be something like "it
> became red / like a chilli". But it functions similar to an adjective.
>
> Galen
>
>


From ochoa at scd.hp.com  Thu Dec 30 18:21:34 1999
From: ochoa at scd.hp.com (Marcos Ochoa)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:21:34 -0700
Subject: English Only Words Of Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.30.DEC.1999.112134.0700.>

Hello All,

I while back I asked for spanish and english words of nahuatl origins. I would
like to refine this list to english-only words of nahuatl origins. Or is it that
ALL english words of nahua origins always come to us via a spanish "filter"?

Regards,
Marcos Romero-Ochoa


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Dec 30 22:48:40 1999
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 15:48:40 -0700
Subject: English Only Words Of Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.30.DEC.1999.154840.0700.>

It would seem that most if not all came to English from Spanish, as there
was scant or no contact between English speakers and Nahuatl speakers.
At the same time, it is not impossible that a few words came to English
through French, given the history of Mexico. But you will have
to do some fancy in-depth philological phootwork to phigure out if any
came into English directly from Nahuatl.

Best,

Michael McCafferty

On Thu, 30 Dec 1999, Marcos Ochoa wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I while back I asked for spanish and english words of nahuatl origins. I would
> like to refine this list to english-only words of nahuatl origins. Or is it that
> ALL english words of nahua origins always come to us via a spanish "filter"?
>
> Regards,
> Marcos Romero-Ochoa
>


Michael McCafferty
C.E.L.T.
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

*******************************************************************************
"Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
from the me that others don't know
to the other me that I don't know.

-Juan Ramon Jimenez

*******************************************************************************


From melesan at pacbell.net  Wed Dec  1 03:15:06 1999
From: melesan at pacbell.net (Mel Sanchez)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:15:06 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.201506.0700.>

The interesting thing about tiza is that it is used in Spain.  In Mexico
they use the word from Spain giz.  Does the latter come from Arabic?

John F. Schwaller wrote:
>
> Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
>
> tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
>
> John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Wed Dec  1 12:15:37 1999
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 05:15:37 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.051537.0700.>

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According to the diccionary of the Real Academia Espanola,  "gis" comes from
the Latin "gypsum".

On the other side, in Italian it is "gesso", and in the De Agostini Italian
dictionary it says that it comes from the Greek "gypsos".

In Portuguese it is "giz", but I can't find the etimology.

In French it is "craie", so no connection.

so?

As for Arabic, some of the words for "chalk" are "tabashir", "halak",
"hawara" but also "karbonat al-kas" (charcoal cup).

Susana Moraleda
(a Mexican in Rome)





-----Original Message-----
From: Mel Sanchez <melesan at pacbell.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: mercoled? 1 dicembre 1999 4.17
Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin


>The interesting thing about tiza is that it is used in Spain.  In Mexico
>they use the word from Spain giz.  Does the latter come from Arabic?
>
>John F. Schwaller wrote:
>>
>> Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
>>
>> tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
>>
>> John Frederick Schwaller
schwallr at selway.umt.edu
>> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
>> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
>
>

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From campbel at indiana.edu  Wed Dec  1 12:31:45 1999
From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 05:31:45 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.053145.0700.>

Carlos,
   'Tocaitl' es un sustantivo bien arraigado en el le'xico nahuatl.  El
suffix '-yo(tl)' indica que su sustantivo es inajenable.  Por ejemplo, si
llevo un paquete de hamburguesa, digo 'nonac' (de 'nacatl'), pero si hablo
de la carne de mi cuerpo, digo 'nonacayo' (de 'nacayotl').  Aqui' tienes
una lista de las ocurrencias del morfema 'to:ca:itl' en el Co'dice
Florentino.  Se nota que 'tocaitl' se combina con varios prefijos
posesivos, evidencia de que 'to-' es parte de la rai'z.

Saludos

Joe


to:ca:itl***
  contocayotique.  they gave it a name.
    <p33-o:n-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
  contocayotique.  they gave it a name, they named it; they called it.
    <p33-o:n-to:ca:itl-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
  ineixcahuiltoca.  its proper name.
    <poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-to:ca:itl>.
  intoca.  their names; their name. <poss-to:ca:itl>.
  itoca.  her name; his name; he is called; its name; it is called;
    so-called. <poss-to:ca:itl>.
  itocatzin.  his holy name; his name. <poss-to:ca:itl-tzin>.
  itocayoca.  its placename. <poss-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-ca:n>.
  itocayocan.  its place-name; its placename.
    <poss-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-ca:n>.
  motoca.  your name. <poss-to:ca:itl>.
  motocayoti.  he was named; it is named; it was called; it was named;
    it was referred to. <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1>.
  motocayotia.  he is named, he is called; he is known as; it is
    named; it is given the name; it is called; it was named; it was
    called; she is named; they are called; they are named; they call
    themselves. <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08>.
  motocayotiaya.  he was called; it was named; it was given the name;
    it was called; they were called; they were given a name; they were
    named; they were given the names.
    <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-ya3>.
  motocayotique.  they were named, they were given the name; they were
    called. <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
  motocayotiz.  it will be called. <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-z>.
  oquitocayotique.  they named it, they gave it a name; they called
    him; they named him. <o:-p33-to:ca:itl-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
  quintocamaca.  he gives them a name, he gives them a title.
    <p43-to:ca:itl-maca>.
  quintocayotia.  he calls them, he names them; they name them; they
    call it; they name it. <p43-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08>.
  quintocayotiaya.  they called them, they named them.
    <p43-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-ya3>.
  quitocamaca.  they give him a name. <p33-to:ca:itl-maca>.
  quitocamacaya.  they gave him a name. <p33-to:ca:itl-maca-ya3>.
  quitocamacazque.  they will give him a name.
    <p33-to:ca:itl-maca-z-plur01>.
  quitocayoti.  he named it, he called it, he gave it a name.
    <p33-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1>.
  quitocayotia.  he calls it, he gives it a name; they name it; they
    give it a name; they call it; they give a name; they name him;
    they called it; they call him. <p33-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08>.
  quitocayotiaya.  they named her; they called him; they named him;
    they called it; they named it; they gave it the name; they called
    her; they gave her a name; they gave him a name.
    <p33-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-ya3>.
  quitocayotique.  they named it, they gave it a name; they named him;
    they gave him a name; they called it; they called him.
    <p33-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
  teotocaitl.  name of god. <teo:tl-to:ca:itl>.
  titocayotiloz.  you will be called, you will be named.
    <p12-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-lo:1-z>.
  tlatocayoti.  he named; they named.
    <p51-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1>.
  tocaitl.  name; title. <to:ca:itl>.
  tocaye.  having renown. <to:ca:itl-eh1>.
  tocayoh.  renowned. <to:ca:itl-yo:tl1>.
  tocayotilo.  he is named, he is given a name; he is called.
    <to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-lo:1>.
  tocayotiloc.  he was named, he was given a name; .
    <to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-lo:1-prt2>.


From J.Kremers at let.kun.nl  Wed Dec  1 13:10:11 1999
From: J.Kremers at let.kun.nl (Joost Kremers)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 06:10:11 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.061011.0700.>

At 05:15 1-12-99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>According to the diccionary of the Real Academia Espanola,  "gis" comes from
>the Latin "gypsum".
>
>On the other side, in Italian it is "gesso", and in the De Agostini Italian
>dictionary it says that it comes from the Greek "gypsos".

"gypsum" is certainly not originally latin: the letter 'y' is a greek
letter. the word was probably adopted in latin from the greek, as were so
many words. (i don't see why a greek word ending in -os should be changed
to -um in latin, though. but i checked the forms, and they are correct.)

>In Portuguese it is "giz", but I can't find the etimology.
>
>In French it is "craie", so no connection.
>
>so?
>
>As for Arabic, some of the words for "chalk" are "tabashir", "halak",
>"hawara" but also "karbonat al-kas" (charcoal cup).

(modern?) arabic also has the words `jibs' and `jaSS' (with emphatic ss)
for `chalk' or `gypsum'.

joost kremers

-------------------------------------------------------
Joost Kremers
University of Nijmegen - The Netherlands
Department of Languages and Cultures of the Middle-East
PO Box 9103
6500 HD Nijmegen - The Netherlands
phone: +31 24 3612996
fax: +31 24 3611972


From mhopkins at fas.harvard.edu  Wed Dec  1 16:13:59 1999
From: mhopkins at fas.harvard.edu (Mary Hopkins)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:13:59 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.091359.0700.>

In my research w/ Mexican potters, I find they use "tiza" to name a glaze
component, which I think is some form of powdered lime. I'm no expert on
glazes, so not sure. Never heard giz. This from e. part of Edo de Mexico.
MH

On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Mel Sanchez wrote:

> The interesting thing about tiza is that it is used in Spain.  In Mexico
> they use the word from Spain giz.  Does the latter come from Arabic?
>
> John F. Schwaller wrote:
> >
> > Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
> >
> > tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
> >
> > John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> > Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> > The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
> >                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
>


From a8803917 at unet.univie.ac.at  Wed Dec  1 18:03:26 1999
From: a8803917 at unet.univie.ac.at (a8803917)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:03:26 -0700
Subject: Words of Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.110326.0700.>

chile comes from the nahuatl-word "chilli" (cf also "chiltic"=red) and
chocolate - as i know - from "xocolatl" ("atl"=water and "xokolli"="sour

fruit", both are also nahuatl words)
concerning the etymology of "cacao"(cacaoatl in nahuatl) i was told in
the nahua region of northern veracruz that the word derives from
"cacahuatic"= "hueco al dentro", what would make certain sense of you
think of the sound when you shake a cacao seed - but i?m not 100% sure
in that and would be pleased to hear the opinion of a linguist to that
question)

                          saludos, juergen

Jorge Perez de Lara schrieb:

> A clarification concerning a listero's recent posting:
>
> >I am wondering if there is a list of english and/or spanish words
> >that are strictly nahuatl in origin. I think chili and chocolate
> >are two of the examples.
>
>   "Chili" is actually a mis-spelling of the word "chile" and
> although this word probably has a Nahuatl origin, I am not
> completely sure of it. The foodstuff that goes by this name is
> not called "chile" in any other Spanish-speaking country outside
> Mexico and parts of Central America, but instead is called "aj?".
>
>   As for "chocolate", this word is only partially Nahuatl in
> origin. The cacao (this word is probably an Mixe-Zoquean in
> origin: "kakaw") drink consumed by the elites in a lot of
> Mesoamerica was actually known as "cacauatl" (literally, cacao
> water) among Nahuatl-speaking peoples at the time of the arrival
> of the Spaniards. The word "chocolate" by which it became known
> throughout the world was probably generated by mixing the Mayan
> name for the beverage "chocol-ha" (hot water) and its Nahuatl
> name, to produce the word "chocol-atl", which ultimately became
> "chocolate" (the ubiquitous Nahuatl word "atl" was always turned
> into "ate" -pronounced 'a-tay' in Spanish-). Sophie and Mike Coe,
> in their wonderful 'The True History of Chocolate', posit that
> the Spaniards did not like the idea of drinking a dark brown
> beverage that went by the name of "caca...". Although this is an
> amusing possibility to consider, the truth is that nobody knows
> how they came to mix the Mayan and Nahuatl names for the beverage.
>
> Jorge Perez de Lara
> Mexico
>
> jorgepl at infosel.net.mx

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien/Vien(n)a
Austria


From a8803917 at unet.univie.ac.at  Wed Dec  1 18:08:19 1999
From: a8803917 at unet.univie.ac.at (a8803917)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:08:19 -0700
Subject: curious
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.110819.0700.>

the axolotl is a kind of newt living in central mexico (from "atl"=water
and "xolotl"=nude, skinless)

Lucas Molina schrieb:

> i'm new to the list and am wondering if anyone has ever read DUNE by
> Frank Herbert.  it may seem odd, but, in the book, he uses the word
> axolotl to refer to a tank used for cloning.  i can gather from some of
> the postings that xolotl means doll, but i don't know what the a- adds
> to the word.  i haven't studied much of the language yet so i haven't
> committed much grammar to memory.  thank you to anyone who responds.

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien/Vien(n)a
Austria


From leonelhermida at netc.pt  Wed Dec  1 19:04:47 1999
From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:04:47 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.120447.0700.>

O 'Grande Dicionario da Lingua Portuguesa' volume V (1981) atribui a
"giz" a etimologia: "do arabe "jibs" derivado do grego "gypsos", gesso.

Mi ha capito, Susana?
Auguroni per Roma.
Leonel



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According to the diccionary of the Real Academia Espanola,  "gis" comes from
the Latin "gypsum".

On the other side, in Italian it is "gesso", and in the De Agostini Italian
dictionary it says that it comes from the Greek "gypsos".

In Portuguese it is "giz", but I can't find the etimology.

In French it is "craie", so no connection.

so?

As for Arabic, some of the words for "chalk" are "tabashir", "halak",
"hawara" but also "karbonat al-kas" (charcoal cup).

Susana Moraleda
(a Mexican in Rome)





-----Original Message-----
From: Mel Sanchez <melesan at pacbell.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: mercoled? 1 dicembre 1999 4.17
Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin


>The interesting thing about tiza is that it is used in Spain.  In Mexico
>they use the word from Spain giz.  Does the latter come from Arabic?
>
>John F. Schwaller wrote:
>>
>> Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
>>
>> tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
>>
>> John Frederick Schwaller
schwallr at selway.umt.edu
>> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
>> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
>
>

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From mixcoatl at earthlink.net  Wed Dec  1 19:56:18 1999
From: mixcoatl at earthlink.net (Olin Tezcatlipoca)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:56:18 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.125618.0700.>

These are just some of the words that we have added to our list of Nahuatl
origin words.  There is a book out there called AZTECISMOS that is a
dictionary like book listing most of the words.   A lot of the words are just
used regionally, el D. F., El Salvador, etc.   Sorry that I don't have time to
get the exact word in Nahuatl.  Those Mexicans and Central Americans and
speakers of Mexican Spanish on the Nahualt List will recognize these
immediately.


ADDING TO THE LIST:
ahuite    saddened

amole      soap made from root

atole        mexican oatmeal-like breakfast

camote     sweet potato

canica      marbles, as in playing marbles

cuacha      filth, as in when you step on a piece of it

chante       home, humble abode

chapulin    grasshopper

chichi       that which the baby cries for, breast

chiar        to cry

chicle        gum

chicote      whip

chilaquiles   tortilla and eggs with chilli sausce

chipote     a bump on the head

chongo       a hair style, a bun

chueco     one who is crooked, a thing which is crooked

cochino      a pig.   Marrano is the spanish word

coco           a hurt, for babies only

comal         a grill

copal          incense

coyote         dog-like creature of the deserts

cuate           twin, your buddy, your other self

elote           corn

escuincle    little kid, pre-adolescent

guacamole    avocado sauce

guajolote      turkey

huila             a kite,

hule         rubber

mecate      rope

metate       grinding stone, for corn

mitote       trouble, a meeting

molcajete    bowl for sauce, to grind in

nana			granmother, how this came from Nantli is a mystery

nene       baby

nena        doll

nopal       cactus

papalote     kite, butterfly

pepenar      to pick up, also sexual meaning

petaca        a trunk

petate         floor mat, for sleeping

pisca          harvesting

popote         straw, as in straw you drink with

pozole          menudo like stuff from Xalixco

pulque

tamal

tapatio       a measure of tortillas

tecolote      owl

tequila

tocayo      someone who has your name

tomate

zacate      grass, as in the kind you mow

zoquete    mud

Olin Tezcatlipoca
http://www.mexica-movement.org


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Wed Dec  1 20:11:48 1999
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:11:48 -0700
Subject: Words of Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.131148.0700.>

At 11:07 AM 12/1/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>chocolate - as i know - from "xocolatl" ("atl"=water and "xokolli"="sour
>
>fruit", both are also nahuatl words)

There is an article which is appearing in Ancient Mesoamerica which
questions this etymology.  As I recall the authors conclude that the word
actually come from the use of the "molinillo" to stir up the chocolate for
drinking.  If anyone knows the reference I'd appreciate it.  I saw the
article under submission but don't know if/when it was ever published.

J. F. Schwaller


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From jrader at m-w.com  Wed Dec  1 21:00:18 1999
From: jrader at m-w.com (Jim Rader)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:00:18 -0700
Subject: Words of Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.140018.0700.>

I believe Karen Dakin was one of the authors of this article, because
she mentioned it to me in e-correspondence last May.  The other
author is Soeren Wichmann.  Their theory is that the Nahuatl etymon
was <chikola:tl>, a word she says is attested in eastern Nahuatl
dialects.  I hesitate to provide further details if the article is
now in print and the data is presented somewhat differently.  Is
Karen on this list?  Maybe she could respond.  I haven't seen the
article.

Jim Rader



> At 11:07 AM 12/1/1999 -0700, you wrote:
> >chocolate - as i know - from "xocolatl" ("atl"=water and "xokolli"="sour
> >
> >fruit", both are also nahuatl words)
>
> There is an article which is appearing in Ancient Mesoamerica which
> questions this etymology.  As I recall the authors conclude that the word
> actually come from the use of the "molinillo" to stir up the chocolate for
> drinking.  If anyone knows the reference I'd appreciate it.  I saw the
> article under submission but don't know if/when it was ever published.
>
> J. F. Schwaller
>
>
> John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
>


From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Wed Dec  1 22:34:04 1999
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:34:04 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.153404.0700.>

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some comments to "tetzcatlipoca`s list":

- "canica" doesn?t come from nahuatl but - according to the diccionario of the
"real academia espagnola" - from the dutch word for marble
- atole (atolli en nahuatl) is made of maize (at least in its original version)
- cochino doesn?t derive from nahuatl (the pig was brought by the spaniards, the
nahuatl term for pig is "pitzotl")
- elote is exactly the young, already eatable maize (and until today very
important in the festive cycle)
- escuincle seems to come from "itzcuintli" = dog and is mostly applied on
children when disturbing or making much noise etc (the usual words for child are
"nenetl, conetl, pipil, ichpochcaconetl etc" depending from age and sex)
- chillar (to cry) isn?t  nahuatl, but has its etymological roots in  latin
(cisclare)
- i?m not sure in the etxymology of  "nana" (the "diccionario nauatl-espagnol" del
instituto mexiquense 1994 mentions also "nanatli" as a  nahuatl term for
grandmother) but i think i can remember that i?ve heard also ppl from southamerica
using the word - so maybe its of spanish origin (i hope that some native speakers
from spain or southamerica could clear this up?!)

                                        con saludos cordiales, juergen stowasser

Olin Tezcatlipoca schrieb:

> These are just some of the words that we have added to our list of Nahuatl
> origin words.  There is a book out there called AZTECISMOS that is a
> dictionary like book listing most of the words.   A lot of the words are just
> used regionally, el D. F., El Salvador, etc.   Sorry that I don't have time to
> get the exact word in Nahuatl.  Those Mexicans and Central Americans and
> speakers of Mexican Spanish on the Nahualt List will recognize these
> immediately.
>
> ADDING TO THE LIST:
> ahuite    saddened
>
> amole      soap made from root
>
> atole        mexican oatmeal-like breakfast
>
> camote     sweet potato
>
> canica      marbles, as in playing marbles
>
> cuacha      filth, as in when you step on a piece of it
>
> chante       home, humble abode
>
> chapulin    grasshopper
>
> chichi       that which the baby cries for, breast
>
> chiar        to cry
>
> chicle        gum
>
> chicote      whip
>
> chilaquiles   tortilla and eggs with chilli sausce
>
> chipote     a bump on the head
>
> chongo       a hair style, a bun
>
> chueco     one who is crooked, a thing which is crooked
>
> cochino      a pig.   Marrano is the spanish word
>
> coco           a hurt, for babies only
>
> comal         a grill
>
> copal          incense
>
> coyote         dog-like creature of the deserts
>
> cuate           twin, your buddy, your other self
>
> elote           corn
>
> escuincle    little kid, pre-adolescent
>
> guacamole    avocado sauce
>
> guajolote      turkey
>
> huila             a kite,
>
> hule         rubber
>
> mecate      rope
>
> metate       grinding stone, for corn
>
> mitote       trouble, a meeting
>
> molcajete    bowl for sauce, to grind in
>
> nana                    granmother, how this came from Nantli is a mystery
>
> nene       baby
>
> nena        doll
>
> nopal       cactus
>
> papalote     kite, butterfly
>
> pepenar      to pick up, also sexual meaning
>
> petaca        a trunk
>
> petate         floor mat, for sleeping
>
> pisca          harvesting
>
> popote         straw, as in straw you drink with
>
> pozole          menudo like stuff from Xalixco
>
> pulque
>
> tamal
>
> tapatio       a measure of tortillas
>
> tecolote      owl
>
> tequila
>
> tocayo      someone who has your name
>
> tomate
>
> zacate      grass, as in the kind you mow
>
> zoquete    mud
>
> Olin Tezcatlipoca
> http://www.mexica-movement.org

>

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
Austria
tel: 01/ 524 54 60
0676/ 398 66 79


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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
some comments to "tetzcatlipoca`s list":
<p>- "canica" doesn&acute;t come from nahuatl but - according to the diccionario
of the "real academia espagnola" - from the dutch word for marble
<br>- atole (atolli en nahuatl) is made of maize (at least in its original
version)
<br>- cochino doesn&acute;t derive from nahuatl (the pig was brought by
the spaniards, the nahuatl term for pig is "pitzotl")
<br>- elote is exactly the young, already eatable maize (and until today
very important in the festive cycle)
<br>- escuincle seems to come from "itzcuintli" = dog and is mostly applied
on children when disturbing or making much noise etc (the usual words for
child are "nenetl, conetl, pipil, ichpochcaconetl etc" depending from age
and sex)
<br>- chillar (to cry) isn&acute;t&nbsp; nahuatl, but has its etymological
roots in&nbsp; latin (cisclare)
<br>- i&acute;m not sure in the etxymology of&nbsp; "nana" (the "diccionario
nauatl-espagnol" del instituto mexiquense 1994 mentions also "nanatli"
as a&nbsp; nahuatl term for grandmother) but i think i can remember that
i&acute;ve heard also ppl from southamerica using the word - so maybe its
of spanish origin (i hope that some native speakers from spain or southamerica
could clear this up?!)
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
con saludos cordiales, juergen stowasser
<p>Olin Tezcatlipoca schrieb:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>These are just some of the words that we have added
to our list of Nahuatl
<br>origin words.&nbsp; There is a book out there called AZTECISMOS that
is a
<br>dictionary like book listing most of the words.&nbsp;&nbsp; A lot of
the words are just
<br>used regionally, el D. F., El Salvador, etc.&nbsp;&nbsp; Sorry that
I don't have time to
<br>get the exact word in Nahuatl.&nbsp; Those Mexicans and Central Americans
and
<br>speakers of Mexican Spanish on the Nahualt List will recognize these
<br>immediately.
<p>ADDING TO THE LIST:
<br>ahuite&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; saddened
<p>amole&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; soap made from root
<p>atole&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mexican oatmeal-like
breakfast
<p>camote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sweet potato
<p>canica&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; marbles, as in playing marbles
<p>cuacha&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; filth, as in when you step on a
piece of it
<p>chante&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; home, humble abode
<p>chapulin&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; grasshopper
<p>chichi&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that which the baby cries
for, breast
<p>chiar&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to cry
<p>chicle&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; gum
<p>chicote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; whip
<p>chilaquiles&nbsp;&nbsp; tortilla and eggs with chilli sausce
<p>chipote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a bump on the head
<p>chongo&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a hair style, a bun
<p>chueco&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; one who is crooked, a thing which is
crooked
<p>cochino&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a pig.&nbsp;&nbsp; Marrano is
the spanish word
<p>coco&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a hurt,
for babies only
<p>comal&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a grill
<p>copal&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; incense
<p>coyote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; dog-like creature
of the deserts
<p>cuate&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; twin,
your buddy, your other self
<p>elote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; corn
<p>escuincle&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; little kid, pre-adolescent
<p>guacamole&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; avocado sauce
<p>guajolote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; turkey
<p>huila&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
a kite,
<p>hule&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; rubber
<p>mecate&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; rope
<p>metate&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; grinding stone, for corn
<p>mitote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; trouble, a meeting
<p>molcajete&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; bowl for sauce, to grind in
<p>nana&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
granmother, how this came from Nantli is a mystery
<p>nene&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; baby
<p>nena&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; doll
<p>nopal&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; cactus
<p>papalote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; kite, butterfly
<p>pepenar&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to pick up, also sexual meaning
<p>petaca&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a trunk
<p>petate&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; floor mat, for
sleeping
<p>pisca&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; harvesting
<p>popote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; straw, as in
straw you drink with
<p>pozole&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; menudo
like stuff from Xalixco
<p>pulque
<p>tamal
<p>tapatio&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a measure of tortillas
<p>tecolote&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; owl
<p>tequila
<p>tocayo&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; someone who has your name
<p>tomate
<p>zacate&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; grass, as in the kind you mow
<p>zoquete&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mud
<p>Olin Tezcatlipoca
<br><a href="http://www.mexica-movement.org">http://www.mexica-movement.org</a></blockquote>

<blockquote TYPE=CITE><a href="http://www.mexica-movement.org"></a>&nbsp;</blockquote>
--
<br>Juergen Stowasser
<br>Burggasse 114/2/8
<br>A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
<br>Austria
<br>tel: 01/ 524 54 60
<br>0676/ 398 66 79
<br>&nbsp;</html>

--------------F96B0AC300655F77ED2E049A--


From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Wed Dec  1 23:12:17 1999
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:12:17 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.161217.0700.>

Two interesting Mexican Spanish words that are from Nahuatl
	1. chamaco(a), from ixamanca, its sprout or bud (of a plant)
	2. cuelele (with an accent over the first "e", meaning  "hurry up").  This
is very strange because it is a Spanish command with no other conjugated
forms (it doesn't come from "colar"), and it is derived from the nahuatl
"cueleh", "quickly".

	John Sullivan
	Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de
John F. Schwaller
Enviado el: Martes, 30 de Noviembre de 1999 09:30 a.m.
Para: Multiple recipients of list
Asunto: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin

Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is

tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From dakin at servidor.unam.mx  Wed Dec  1 23:51:07 1999
From: dakin at servidor.unam.mx (DAKIN ANDERSON KAREN)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:51:07 -0700
Subject: Words of Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.165107.0700.>

Jim and Fritz,
We got off the article with revisions to Ancient Mesoamerica not too long
ago, so I'm not sure in which issue it will appear yet, but the basic
arguments are that there is both Nahuatl dialect and early loanword
evidence
from a great number of Mexican languages, as well as from the Philippines
and Spain (for instance an old dialect in Asturias), and I think 17th
century Holland, that the original form for
"chocolate" was
(is in those dialects that have it) chikola:t(l), which became
chokolatl by vowel harmony and was borrowed into Spanish that way  (cf.
also that Churubusco comes from Huitzilopochtli). Chikolli (with some
variation as far as long vowels in chi-), refers to a stick with twigs or
short roots on one end used as beaters.  The same word is used in Morelos
and parts of Guerrero for the long pool with a piece on the end used to
harvest fruit.  In Isthus and Yucatan Spanish apparently chicolear means
to beat chocolate or other liquid.  Our proposal for cacao is a bit more
complicated, but relates it to the word for 'egg' in various Southern
Uto-Aztecan languages -- It's probably better to leave it until the
article comes out.  We will be interested to see what reactions there are,
including those from this list.
What to me was the most rewarding evidence  when the ideas were falling
together was the fact that some speakers gave chikolat(l) to us right off,
but other
speakers who didn't give it to us when first asked, if I would hesitantly
suggest it, they would break into smiles and say "Why that's the OLD
word!".   Anyway, Soeren Wichmann and I hope that it will be out soon.

Karen Dakin
Instituto de Investigaciones Filologicas
UNAM

On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Jim Rader wrote:

> I believe Karen Dakin was one of the authors of this article, because
> she mentioned it to me in e-correspondence last May.  The other
> author is Soeren Wichmann.  Their theory is that the Nahuatl etymon
> was <chikola:tl>, a word she says is attested in eastern Nahuatl
> dialects.  I hesitate to provide further details if the article is
> now in print and the data is presented somewhat differently.  Is
> Karen on this list?  Maybe she could respond.  I haven't seen the
> article.
>
> Jim Rader
>
>
>
> > At 11:07 AM 12/1/1999 -0700, you wrote:
> > >chocolate - as i know - from "xocolatl" ("atl"=water and "xokolli"="sour
> > >
> > >fruit", both are also nahuatl words)
> >
> > There is an article which is appearing in Ancient Mesoamerica which
> > questions this etymology.  As I recall the authors conclude that the word
> > actually come from the use of the "molinillo" to stir up the chocolate for
> > drinking.  If anyone knows the reference I'd appreciate it.  I saw the
> > article under submission but don't know if/when it was ever published.
> >
> > J. F. Schwaller
> >
> >
> > John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> > Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> > The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
> >                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
> >
>


From micc at home.com  Thu Dec  2 01:18:04 1999
From: micc at home.com (micc)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:18:04 -0700
Subject: Words of Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.181804.0700.>

The cacao part appears to be a direct loan word from the maya....who
seemed to enjoy it amost as much as I do today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

a8803917 wrote:
>
> chile comes from the nahuatl-word "chilli" (cf also "chiltic"=red) and
> chocolate - as i know - from "xocolatl" ("atl"=water and "xokolli"="sour
>
> fruit", both are also nahuatl words)
> concerning the etymology of "cacao"(cacaoatl in nahuatl) i was told in
> the nahua region of northern veracruz that the word derives from
> "cacahuatic"= "hueco al dentro", what would make certain sense of you
> think of the sound when you shake a cacao seed - but i?m not 100% sure
> in that and would be pleased to hear the opinion of a linguist to that
> question)
>
>                           saludos, juergen
>
> Jorge Perez de Lara schrieb:
>
> > A clarification concerning a listero's recent posting:
> >
> > >I am wondering if there is a list of english and/or spanish words
> > >that are strictly nahuatl in origin. I think chili and chocolate
> > >are two of the examples.
> >
> >   "Chili" is actually a mis-spelling of the word "chile" and
> > although this word probably has a Nahuatl origin, I am not
> > completely sure of it. The foodstuff that goes by this name is
> > not called "chile" in any other Spanish-speaking country outside
> > Mexico and parts of Central America, but instead is called "aj?".
> >
> >   As for "chocolate", this word is only partially Nahuatl in
> > origin. The cacao (this word is probably an Mixe-Zoquean in
> > origin: "kakaw") drink consumed by the elites in a lot of
> > Mesoamerica was actually known as "cacauatl" (literally, cacao
> > water) among Nahuatl-speaking peoples at the time of the arrival
> > of the Spaniards. The word "chocolate" by which it became known
> > throughout the world was probably generated by mixing the Mayan
> > name for the beverage "chocol-ha" (hot water) and its Nahuatl
> > name, to produce the word "chocol-atl", which ultimately became
> > "chocolate" (the ubiquitous Nahuatl word "atl" was always turned
> > into "ate" -pronounced 'a-tay' in Spanish-). Sophie and Mike Coe,
> > in their wonderful 'The True History of Chocolate', posit that
> > the Spaniards did not like the idea of drinking a dark brown
> > beverage that went by the name of "caca...". Although this is an
> > amusing possibility to consider, the truth is that nobody knows
> > how they came to mix the Mayan and Nahuatl names for the beverage.
> >
> > Jorge Perez de Lara
> > Mexico
> >
> > jorgepl at infosel.net.mx
>
> --
> Juergen Stowasser
> Burggasse 114/2/8
> A-1070 Wien/Vien(n)a
> Austria


From micc at home.com  Thu Dec  2 01:32:46 1999
From: micc at home.com (micc)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:32:46 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.183246.0700.>

Nana is a reduplicative of nantli "mother.   Citli is grandmother in
nahuatl.

tata is a "	"	" ta'tli "father".    Coltzin (the honorable curved one)
is grandfather in Nahuatl



Juergen Stowasser wrote:
>
> --------------F96B0AC300655F77ED2E049A
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> some comments to "tetzcatlipoca`s list":
>
> -
> - i?m not sure in the etxymology of  "nana" (the "diccionario nauatl-espagnol" del
> instituto mexiquense 1994 mentions also "nanatli" as a  nahuatl term for
> grandmother) but i think i can remember that i?ve heard also ppl from southamerica
> using the word - so maybe its of spanish origin (i hope that some native speakers
> from spain or southamerica could clear this up?!)
>
>                                         con saludos cordiales, juergen stowasser


From micc at home.com  Thu Dec  2 01:35:43 1999
From: micc at home.com (micc)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:35:43 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.183543.0700.>

Since we are onto interesting derivations here's one that has been
bugging me for decades:

My grandmothers family was from Amozoc, Puebla,  I believe a nahuatl
speaking area.

She used to always say "ecole! ecole cua!"  we we might say "right On!
that's it!!!"
Since I am a unrepented Chilango, living in Aztlan, I have mucha familia
in el D.F., as well as friends. occasionally this phrase pops out, but
no one can tell me where it is derived...

any takers?........

John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:
>
> Two interesting Mexican Spanish words that are from Nahuatl
>         1. chamaco(a), from ixamanca, its sprout or bud (of a plant)
>         2. cuelele (with an accent over the first "e", meaning  "hurry up").  This
> is very strange because it is a Spanish command with no other conjugated
> forms (it doesn't come from "colar"), and it is derived from the nahuatl
> "cueleh", "quickly".
>
>         John Sullivan
>         Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de
> John F. Schwaller
> Enviado el: Martes, 30 de Noviembre de 1999 09:30 a.m.
> Para: Multiple recipients of list
> Asunto: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
>
> Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
>
> tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
>
> John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From micc at home.com  Thu Dec  2 01:51:40 1999
From: micc at home.com (micc)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:51:40 -0700
Subject: Words of Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.185140.0700.>

Does not churubusco come from Huitzliopochco, the place of
huitzilopochtli?

DAKIN ANDERSON KAREN wrote:
>
> Jim and Fritz,
> We got off the article with revisions to Ancient Mesoamerica not too long
> ago, so I'm not sure in which issue it will appear yet, but the basic
> arguments are that there is both Nahuatl dialect and early loanword
> evidence
> from a great number of Mexican languages, as well as from the Philippines
> and Spain (for instance an old dialect in Asturias), and I think 17th
> century Holland, that the original form for
> "chocolate" was
> (is in those dialects that have it) chikola:t(l), which became
> chokolatl by vowel harmony and was borrowed into Spanish that way  (cf.
> also that Churubusco comes from Huitzilopochtli). Chikolli (with some
> variation as far as long vowels in chi-), refers to a stick with twigs or
> short roots on one end used as beaters.  The same word is used in Morelos
> and parts of Guerrero for the long pool with a piece on the end used to
> harvest fruit.  In Isthus and Yucatan Spanish apparently chicolear means
> to beat chocolate or other liquid.  Our proposal for cacao is a bit more
> complicated, but relates it to the word for 'egg' in various Southern
> Uto-Aztecan languages -- It's probably better to leave it until the
> article comes out.  We will be interested to see what reactions there are,
> including those from this list.
> What to me was the most rewarding evidence  when the ideas were falling
> together was the fact that some speakers gave chikolat(l) to us right off,
> but other
> speakers who didn't give it to us when first asked, if I would hesitantly
> suggest it, they would break into smiles and say "Why that's the OLD
> word!".   Anyway, Soeren Wichmann and I hope that it will be out soon.
>
> Karen Dakin
> Instituto de Investigaciones Filologicas
> UNAM
>
> On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Jim Rader wrote:
>
> > I believe Karen Dakin was one of the authors of this article, because
> > she mentioned it to me in e-correspondence last May.  The other
> > author is Soeren Wichmann.  Their theory is that the Nahuatl etymon
> > was <chikola:tl>, a word she says is attested in eastern Nahuatl
> > dialects.  I hesitate to provide further details if the article is
> > now in print and the data is presented somewhat differently.  Is
> > Karen on this list?  Maybe she could respond.  I haven't seen the
> > article.
> >
> > Jim Rader
> >
> >
> >
> > > At 11:07 AM 12/1/1999 -0700, you wrote:
> > > >chocolate - as i know - from "xocolatl" ("atl"=water and "xokolli"="sour
> > > >
> > > >fruit", both are also nahuatl words)
> > >
> > > There is an article which is appearing in Ancient Mesoamerica which
> > > questions this etymology.  As I recall the authors conclude that the word
> > > actually come from the use of the "molinillo" to stir up the chocolate for
> > > drinking.  If anyone knows the reference I'd appreciate it.  I saw the
> > > article under submission but don't know if/when it was ever published.
> > >
> > > J. F. Schwaller
> > >
> > >
> > > John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> > > Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> > > The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
> > >                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
> > >
> >


From dakin at servidor.unam.mx  Thu Dec  2 03:56:24 1999
From: dakin at servidor.unam.mx (DAKIN ANDERSON KAREN)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 20:56:24 -0700
Subject: Churubusco
Message-ID: <WED.1.DEC.1999.205624.0700.>

Sorry if the reason for citing Churubusco was not clear.  What I meant was
that Churubusco was the resultant form of borrowing Huitzilopochtli into
Spanish from Nahuatl.  The i's of Huitzil were changed into o's (u's) to
match or harmonize with opochtli along the way.  In somewhat the same way,
the i of the chi- in chikola:tl became an o as in the form of
'chocolate'.


From carlossn at ui.boe.es  Thu Dec  2 08:09:51 1999
From: carlossn at ui.boe.es (Carlos Santamarina)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 01:09:51 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.010951.0700.>

"R. Joe Campbell" escribi=F3:

> Carlos,
>    'Tocaitl' es un sustantivo bien arraigado en el le'xico nahuatl.  El=

> suffix '-yo(tl)' indica que su sustantivo es inajenable.  Por ejemplo, =
si
> llevo un paquete de hamburguesa, digo 'nonac' (de 'nacatl'), pero si ha=
blo
> de la carne de mi cuerpo, digo 'nonacayo' (de 'nacayotl').  Aqui' tiene=
s
> una lista de las ocurrencias del morfema 'to:ca:itl' en el Co'dice
> Florentino.  Se nota que 'tocaitl' se combina con varios prefijos
> posesivos, evidencia de que 'to-' es parte de la rai'z.
>
> Saludos
>
> Joe
>
>
> to:ca:itl***
>   contocayotique.  they gave it a name.
>     <p33-o:n-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
>   contocayotique.  they gave it a name, they named it; they called it.
>     <p33-o:n-to:ca:itl-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
>   ineixcahuiltoca.  its proper name.
>     <poss-p53-i:xtli-ca:hua-ben-l1-to:ca:itl>.
>   intoca.  their names; their name. <poss-to:ca:itl>.
>   itoca.  her name; his name; he is called; its name; it is called;
>     so-called. <poss-to:ca:itl>.
>   itocatzin.  his holy name; his name. <poss-to:ca:itl-tzin>.
>   itocayoca.  its placename. <poss-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-ca:n>.
>   itocayocan.  its place-name; its placename.
>     <poss-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-ca:n>.
>   motoca.  your name. <poss-to:ca:itl>.
>   motocayoti.  he was named; it is named; it was called; it was named;
>     it was referred to. <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1>.
>   motocayotia.  he is named, he is called; he is known as; it is
>     named; it is given the name; it is called; it was named; it was
>     called; she is named; they are called; they are named; they call
>     themselves. <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08>.
>   motocayotiaya.  he was called; it was named; it was given the name;
>     it was called; they were called; they were given a name; they were
>     named; they were given the names.
>     <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-ya3>.
>   motocayotique.  they were named, they were given the name; they were
>     called. <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
>   motocayotiz.  it will be called. <p54-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-z>.
>   oquitocayotique.  they named it, they gave it a name; they called
>     him; they named him. <o:-p33-to:ca:itl-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
>   quintocamaca.  he gives them a name, he gives them a title.
>     <p43-to:ca:itl-maca>.
>   quintocayotia.  he calls them, he names them; they name them; they
>     call it; they name it. <p43-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08>.
>   quintocayotiaya.  they called them, they named them.
>     <p43-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-ya3>.
>   quitocamaca.  they give him a name. <p33-to:ca:itl-maca>.
>   quitocamacaya.  they gave him a name. <p33-to:ca:itl-maca-ya3>.
>   quitocamacazque.  they will give him a name.
>     <p33-to:ca:itl-maca-z-plur01>.
>   quitocayoti.  he named it, he called it, he gave it a name.
>     <p33-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1>.
>   quitocayotia.  he calls it, he gives it a name; they name it; they
>     give it a name; they call it; they give a name; they name him;
>     they called it; they call him. <p33-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08>.
>   quitocayotiaya.  they named her; they called him; they named him;
>     they called it; they named it; they gave it the name; they called
>     her; they gave her a name; they gave him a name.
>     <p33-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-ya3>.
>   quitocayotique.  they named it, they gave it a name; they named him;
>     they gave him a name; they called it; they called him.
>     <p33-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1-plur01>.
>   teotocaitl.  name of god. <teo:tl-to:ca:itl>.
>   titocayotiloz.  you will be called, you will be named.
>     <p12-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-lo:1-z>.
>   tlatocayoti.  he named; they named.
>     <p51-to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-prt1>.
>   tocaitl.  name; title. <to:ca:itl>.
>   tocaye.  having renown. <to:ca:itl-eh1>.
>   tocayoh.  renowned. <to:ca:itl-yo:tl1>.
>   tocayotilo.  he is named, he is given a name; he is called.
>     <to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-lo:1>.
>   tocayotiloc.  he was named, he was given a name; .
>     <to:ca:itl-yo:tl1-v04-caus08-lo:1-prt2>.
>
>

Joe:

    Conozco el te'rmino na'huatl "tocaitl" y su composicio'n en posesivo
inalienable. Lo que no parece completamente seguro es que el te'rmino esp=
a=F1ol
"tocayo" (respecto a una persona, aquel que tiene su mismo nombre) proven=
ga
del na'huatl, pues la Real Academia de la Lengua Espa=F1ola se refiere a =
un
supuesto origen latino. Por otra parte, la aparicio'n que tu' mencionas
(tocayoh.  renowned. <to:ca:itl-yo:tl1>) no parece apoyar la posibilidad
etimolo'gica na'huatl.
    Gracias por la lista del Florentino (=BFusas el Temoa?).

            Saludos:        Carlos.


From leonelhermida at netc.pt  Thu Dec  2 08:58:38 1999
From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 01:58:38 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.015838.0700.>

I'm afraid "ecole! ecole cua!"  has nothing to do with Nahuatl.
It is pure Italian "ecco li qua" and means 'here they are' or
'here it is'.
Were there any immigrants from Italy at 'Amozoc, Puebla'?

Regards,

Leonel

-----Original Message-----
From: micc <micc at home.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 1:43 AM
Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin


Since we are onto interesting derivations here's one that has been
bugging me for decades:

My grandmothers family was from Amozoc, Puebla,  I believe a nahuatl
speaking area.

She used to always say "ecole! ecole cua!"  we we might say "right On!
that's it!!!"
Since I am a unrepented Chilango, living in Aztlan, I have mucha familia
in el D.F., as well as friends. occasionally this phrase pops out, but
no one can tell me where it is derived...

any takers?........

John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:
>
> Two interesting Mexican Spanish words that are from Nahuatl
>         1. chamaco(a), from ixamanca, its sprout or bud (of a plant)
>         2. cuelele (with an accent over the first "e", meaning  "hurry up").
This
> is very strange because it is a Spanish command with no other conjugated
> forms (it doesn't come from "colar"), and it is derived from the nahuatl
> "cueleh", "quickly".
>
>         John Sullivan
>         Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de
> John F. Schwaller
> Enviado el: Martes, 30 de Noviembre de 1999 09:30 a.m.
> Para: Multiple recipients of list
> Asunto: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
>
> Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
>
> tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
>
> John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Thu Dec  2 09:47:34 1999
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 02:47:34 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.024734.0700.>

u?re right, citli is the usual form for grandmother but a reduplication can also change
the meaning (think of "nacatl"/"nanacatl") so i?m still not sure if the dictionary cited
below is also right with "nanatli"=grandmother/mother...
pd: checked the word in the diccionario of the real academia, according to them "nana"
is (iberic) spanish....
                                                    saludos, juergen

micc schrieb:

> Nana is a reduplicative of nantli "mother.   Citli is grandmother in
> nahuatl.
>
> tata is a "     "       " ta'tli "father".    Coltzin (the honorable curved one)
> is grandfather in Nahuatl
>
> Juergen Stowasser wrote:
> >
> > --------------F96B0AC300655F77ED2E049A
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> >
> > some comments to "tetzcatlipoca`s list":
> >
> > -
> > - i?m not sure in the etxymology of  "nana" (the "diccionario nauatl-espagnol" del
> > instituto mexiquense 1994 mentions also "nanatli" as a  nahuatl term for
> > grandmother) but i think i can remember that i?ve heard also ppl from southamerica
> > using the word - so maybe its of spanish origin (i hope that some native speakers
> > from spain or southamerica could clear this up?!)
> >
> >                                         con saludos cordiales, juergen stowasser

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
Austria
tel: 01/ 524 54 60
0676/ 398 66 79


From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Thu Dec  2 12:41:16 1999
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 05:41:16 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.054116.0700.>

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Yes, I know.  Also my father used to say "ecole" all the time (he was from
Mexico City).

Now I live in Italy and have learned that it is pure Italian, but with a
double "c" (which IS indeed pronounced).

"Ecco" means "that's it", "right", "you see" -there are a lot of meanings
depending on the context.

"EccoLO" means "[here] HE/SHE/IT is", and

"eccolo QUA" means "HERE he/she/it is".

I'd also be interested to know if it was due to Italian inmigrants in Mexico
at the time the term was espa<n>olizado.

Susana Moraleda


-----Original Message-----
From: Leonel Hermida <leonelhermida at netc.pt>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: gioved? 2 dicembre 1999 10.00
Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin


>I'm afraid "ecole! ecole cua!"  has nothing to do with Nahuatl.
>It is pure Italian "ecco li qua" and means 'here they are' or
>'here it is'.
>Were there any immigrants from Italy at 'Amozoc, Puebla'?
>
>Regards,
>
>Leonel
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: micc <micc at home.com>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 1:43 AM
>Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
>
>
>Since we are onto interesting derivations here's one that has been
>bugging me for decades:
>
>My grandmothers family was from Amozoc, Puebla,  I believe a nahuatl
>speaking area.
>
>She used to always say "ecole! ecole cua!"  we we might say "right On!
>that's it!!!"
>Since I am a unrepented Chilango, living in Aztlan, I have mucha familia
>in el D.F., as well as friends. occasionally this phrase pops out, but
>no one can tell me where it is derived...
>
>any takers?........
>
>John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:
>>
>> Two interesting Mexican Spanish words that are from Nahuatl
>>         1. chamaco(a), from ixamanca, its sprout or bud (of a plant)
>>         2. cuelele (with an accent over the first "e", meaning  "hurry
up").
>This
>> is very strange because it is a Spanish command with no other conjugated
>> forms (it doesn't come from "colar"), and it is derived from the nahuatl
>> "cueleh", "quickly".
>>
>>         John Sullivan
>>         Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
>>
>> -----Mensaje original-----
>> De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de
>> John F. Schwaller
>> Enviado el: Martes, 30 de Noviembre de 1999 09:30 a.m.
>> Para: Multiple recipients of list
>> Asunto: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
>>
>> Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
>>
>> tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
>>
>> John Frederick Schwaller
schwallr at selway.umt.edu
>> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
>> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
>
>
>

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BEGIN:VCARD
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EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
REV:19991202T123633Z
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From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Thu Dec  2 12:44:24 1999
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 05:44:24 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.054424.0700.>

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Sim! Magnifico! Misterio resuelto! (arabe derivado do grego!!!)

Auguri anche a te ed il Portogallo,
Susana


-----Original Message-----
From: Leonel Hermida <leonelhermida at netc.pt>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: mercoled? 1 dicembre 1999 20.09
Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin


>O 'Grande Dicionario da Lingua Portuguesa' volume V (1981) atribui a
>"giz" a etimologia: "do arabe "jibs" derivado do grego "gypsos", gesso.
>
>Mi ha capito, Susana?
>Auguroni per Roma.
>Leonel
>
>
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_009B_01BF3BFA.4F8767C0
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
>According to the diccionary of the Real Academia Espanola,  "gis" comes
from
>the Latin "gypsum".
>
>On the other side, in Italian it is "gesso", and in the De Agostini Italian
>dictionary it says that it comes from the Greek "gypsos".
>
>In Portuguese it is "giz", but I can't find the etimology.
>
>In French it is "craie", so no connection.
>
>so?
>
>As for Arabic, some of the words for "chalk" are "tabashir", "halak",
>"hawara" but also "karbonat al-kas" (charcoal cup).
>
>Susana Moraleda
>(a Mexican in Rome)
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mel Sanchez <melesan at pacbell.net>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Date: mercoled? 1 dicembre 1999 4.17
>Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
>
>
>>The interesting thing about tiza is that it is used in Spain.  In Mexico
>>they use the word from Spain giz.  Does the latter come from Arabic?
>>
>>John F. Schwaller wrote:
>>>
>>> Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
>>>
>>> tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
>>>
>>> John Frederick Schwaller
>schwallr at selway.umt.edu
>>> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
>>> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>>>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
>>
>>
>
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From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Thu Dec  2 12:47:16 1999
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 05:47:16 -0700
Subject: Words of Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.054716.0700.>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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There is a fantastic book:

"The True History of Chocolate"
by Sophie and Michael D. Coe
Thames and Hudson, London

including, among thousands of interesting things, an extensive analysis of
the etymology of the words "cacao" and "chocolate". The issue was discussed
in this list a couple of years ago if I remember well, under the subject
"Theobroma cacao".  Maybe John Swaller recalls the outcome.

By the way, does anyone know if the book has been translated into Spanish or
other Neo-Latin languages?

Susana Moraleda



-----Original Message-----
From: micc <micc at home.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: gioved? 2 dicembre 1999 2.20
Subject: Re: Words of Nahuatl Origin


>The cacao part appears to be a direct loan word from the maya....who
>seemed to enjoy it amost as much as I do today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>a8803917 wrote:
>>
>> chile comes from the nahuatl-word "chilli" (cf also "chiltic"=red) and
>> chocolate - as i know - from "xocolatl" ("atl"=water and "xokolli"="sour
>>
>> fruit", both are also nahuatl words)
>> concerning the etymology of "cacao"(cacaoatl in nahuatl) i was told in
>> the nahua region of northern veracruz that the word derives from
>> "cacahuatic"= "hueco al dentro", what would make certain sense of you
>> think of the sound when you shake a cacao seed - but i?m not 100% sure
>> in that and would be pleased to hear the opinion of a linguist to that
>> question)
>>
>>                           saludos, juergen
>>
>> Jorge Perez de Lara schrieb:
>>
>> > A clarification concerning a listero's recent posting:
>> >
>> > >I am wondering if there is a list of english and/or spanish words
>> > >that are strictly nahuatl in origin. I think chili and chocolate
>> > >are two of the examples.
>> >
>> >   "Chili" is actually a mis-spelling of the word "chile" and
>> > although this word probably has a Nahuatl origin, I am not
>> > completely sure of it. The foodstuff that goes by this name is
>> > not called "chile" in any other Spanish-speaking country outside
>> > Mexico and parts of Central America, but instead is called "aj?".
>> >
>> >   As for "chocolate", this word is only partially Nahuatl in
>> > origin. The cacao (this word is probably an Mixe-Zoquean in
>> > origin: "kakaw") drink consumed by the elites in a lot of
>> > Mesoamerica was actually known as "cacauatl" (literally, cacao
>> > water) among Nahuatl-speaking peoples at the time of the arrival
>> > of the Spaniards. The word "chocolate" by which it became known
>> > throughout the world was probably generated by mixing the Mayan
>> > name for the beverage "chocol-ha" (hot water) and its Nahuatl
>> > name, to produce the word "chocol-atl", which ultimately became
>> > "chocolate" (the ubiquitous Nahuatl word "atl" was always turned
>> > into "ate" -pronounced 'a-tay' in Spanish-). Sophie and Mike Coe,
>> > in their wonderful 'The True History of Chocolate', posit that
>> > the Spaniards did not like the idea of drinking a dark brown
>> > beverage that went by the name of "caca...". Although this is an
>> > amusing possibility to consider, the truth is that nobody knows
>> > how they came to mix the Mayan and Nahuatl names for the beverage.
>> >
>> > Jorge Perez de Lara
>> > Mexico
>> >
>> > jorgepl at infosel.net.mx
>>
>> --
>> Juergen Stowasser
>> Burggasse 114/2/8
>> A-1070 Wien/Vien(n)a
>> Austria
>
>


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From micc at home.com  Thu Dec  2 14:32:44 1999
From: micc at home.com (micc)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:32:44 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.073244.0700.>

thanks!!! Fianlly I know.  It is interesting that my friends from a very
"Mexican" barrio of Santa Cruz de Atenco, in Tacuba, use this phrase a
lot!!!!!

Leonel Hermida wrote:
>
> I'm afraid "ecole! ecole cua!"  has nothing to do with Nahuatl.
> It is pure Italian "ecco li qua" and means 'here they are' or
> 'here it is'.
> Were there any immigrants from Italy at 'Amozoc, Puebla'?
>
> Regards,
>
> Leonel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: micc <micc at home.com>
> To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 1:43 AM
> Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
>
> Since we are onto interesting derivations here's one that has been
> bugging me for decades:
>
> My grandmothers family was from Amozoc, Puebla,  I believe a nahuatl
> speaking area.
>
> She used to always say "ecole! ecole cua!"  we we might say "right On!
> that's it!!!"
> Since I am a unrepented Chilango, living in Aztlan, I have mucha familia
> in el D.F., as well as friends. occasionally this phrase pops out, but
> no one can tell me where it is derived...
>
> any takers?........
>
> John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:
> >
> > Two interesting Mexican Spanish words that are from Nahuatl
> >         1. chamaco(a), from ixamanca, its sprout or bud (of a plant)
> >         2. cuelele (with an accent over the first "e", meaning  "hurry up").
> This
> > is very strange because it is a Spanish command with no other conjugated
> > forms (it doesn't come from "colar"), and it is derived from the nahuatl
> > "cueleh", "quickly".
> >
> >         John Sullivan
> >         Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
> >
> > -----Mensaje original-----
> > De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de
> > John F. Schwaller
> > Enviado el: Martes, 30 de Noviembre de 1999 09:30 a.m.
> > Para: Multiple recipients of list
> > Asunto: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
> >
> > Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
> >
> > tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
> >
> > John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> > Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> > The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
> >                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From dakin at servidor.unam.mx  Thu Dec  2 16:18:08 1999
From: dakin at servidor.unam.mx (DAKIN ANDERSON KAREN)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:18:08 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.091808.0700.>

My father-in-law, who was from Michoacan, used to say "ecole cua" all the
time too.  It may have something to do with generation -- he was born in
1910.  However, I should note that my husband was talking about the
different phrases his father used, such as "eccolo qua", and he said "and
he also always said another phrase that must be Greek or Russian, Axcan
quema", -- he must have learned that one travelling to Morelos where he
met my mother-in-law.=20

On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, marisol wrote:

> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>=20
> ------=3D_NextPart_000_0124_01BF3CCA.3F7D4D60
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> =09charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>=20
> Yes, I know.  Also my father used to say "ecole" all the time (he was fro=
m
> Mexico City).
>=20
> Now I live in Italy and have learned that it is pure Italian, but with a
> double "c" (which IS indeed pronounced).
>=20
> "Ecco" means "that's it", "right", "you see" -there are a lot of meanings
> depending on the context.
>=20
> "EccoLO" means "[here] HE/SHE/IT is", and
>=20
> "eccolo QUA" means "HERE he/she/it is".
>=20
> I'd also be interested to know if it was due to Italian inmigrants in Mex=
ico
> at the time the term was espa<n>olizado.
>=20
> Susana Moraleda
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leonel Hermida <leonelhermida at netc.pt>
> To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> Date: gioved=EC 2 dicembre 1999 10.00
> Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
>=20
>=20
> >I'm afraid "ecole! ecole cua!"  has nothing to do with Nahuatl.
> >It is pure Italian "ecco li qua" and means 'here they are' or
> >'here it is'.
> >Were there any immigrants from Italy at 'Amozoc, Puebla'?
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Leonel
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: micc <micc at home.com>
> >To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> >Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 1:43 AM
> >Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
> >
> >
> >Since we are onto interesting derivations here's one that has been
> >bugging me for decades:
> >
> >My grandmothers family was from Amozoc, Puebla,  I believe a nahuatl
> >speaking area.
> >
> >She used to always say "ecole! ecole cua!"  we we might say "right On!
> >that's it!!!"
> >Since I am a unrepented Chilango, living in Aztlan, I have mucha familia
> >in el D.F., as well as friends. occasionally this phrase pops out, but
> >no one can tell me where it is derived...
> >
> >any takers?........
> >
> >John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:
> >>
> >> Two interesting Mexican Spanish words that are from Nahuatl
> >>         1. chamaco(a), from ixamanca, its sprout or bud (of a plant)
> >>         2. cuelele (with an accent over the first "e", meaning  "hurry
> up").
> >This
> >> is very strange because it is a Spanish command with no other conjugat=
ed
> >> forms (it doesn't come from "colar"), and it is derived from the nahua=
tl
> >> "cueleh", "quickly".
> >>
> >>         John Sullivan
> >>         Universidad Aut=F3noma de Zacatecas
> >>
> >> -----Mensaje original-----
> >> De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre =
de
> >> John F. Schwaller
> >> Enviado el: Martes, 30 de Noviembre de 1999 09:30 a.m.
> >> Para: Multiple recipients of list
> >> Asunto: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
> >>
> >> Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
> >>
> >> tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
> >>
> >> John Frederick Schwaller
> schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> >> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> >> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
> >>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
> >
> >
> >
>=20
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> =09filename=3D"Susana Moraleda.vcf"
>=20
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> VERSION:2.1
> N:Moraleda;Susana
> FN:Susana Moraleda
> EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
> REV:19991202T123633Z
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>=20
> ------=3D_NextPart_000_0124_01BF3CCA.3F7D4D60--
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>=20


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Thu Dec  2 16:43:21 1999
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:43:21 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.094321.0700.>

Karen, I think your'e wrong.  Im sure that "axcan Quemah" is Nahuatl for
"today, yes"


From scalderon at spin.com.mx  Thu Dec  2 17:12:45 1999
From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:12:45 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.101245.0700.>

Ecole! Ecole cua!
My father also uses it all the time.He's from Michoacan, raised in Veracruz
and lives in Mexico City since 12 years old.
I think everybody uses it.

Salvador Calderon
----- Original Message -----
From: micc <micc at home.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin


> thanks!!! Fianlly I know.  It is interesting that my friends from a very
> "Mexican" barrio of Santa Cruz de Atenco, in Tacuba, use this phrase a
> lot!!!!!
>
> Leonel Hermida wrote:
> >
> > I'm afraid "ecole! ecole cua!"  has nothing to do with Nahuatl.
> > It is pure Italian "ecco li qua" and means 'here they are' or
> > 'here it is'.
> > Were there any immigrants from Italy at 'Amozoc, Puebla'?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Leonel
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: micc <micc at home.com>
> > To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> > Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 1:43 AM
> > Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
> >
> > Since we are onto interesting derivations here's one that has been
> > bugging me for decades:
> >
> > My grandmothers family was from Amozoc, Puebla,  I believe a nahuatl
> > speaking area.
> >
> > She used to always say "ecole! ecole cua!"  we we might say "right On!
> > that's it!!!"
> > Since I am a unrepented Chilango, living in Aztlan, I have mucha familia
> > in el D.F., as well as friends. occasionally this phrase pops out, but
> > no one can tell me where it is derived...
> >
> > any takers?........
> >
> > John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:
> > >
> > > Two interesting Mexican Spanish words that are from Nahuatl
> > >         1. chamaco(a), from ixamanca, its sprout or bud (of a plant)
> > >         2. cuelele (with an accent over the first "e", meaning  "hurry
up").
> > This
> > > is very strange because it is a Spanish command with no other
conjugated
> > > forms (it doesn't come from "colar"), and it is derived from the
nahuatl
> > > "cueleh", "quickly".
> > >
> > >         John Sullivan
> > >         Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
> > >
> > > -----Mensaje original-----
> > > De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre
de
> > > John F. Schwaller
> > > Enviado el: Martes, 30 de Noviembre de 1999 09:30 a.m.
> > > Para: Multiple recipients of list
> > > Asunto: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
> > >
> > > Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
> > >
> > > tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
> > >
> > > John Frederick Schwaller
schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> > > Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> > > The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
> > >                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
>


From dakin at servidor.unam.mx  Thu Dec  2 17:27:57 1999
From: dakin at servidor.unam.mx (DAKIN ANDERSON KAREN)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:27:57 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.102757.0700.>

You're absolutely right.  I'm sorry but that was what I meant.  It was
great fun to tell my spouse where it came from.

On Thu, 2 Dec 1999 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:

> Karen, I think your'e wrong.  Im sure that "axcan Quemah" is Nahuatl for
> "today, yes"
>


From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Thu Dec  2 17:31:19 1999
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:31:19 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.103119.0700.>

i think it means "ahora si" ("axca"=hoy, "axcan"=ahora)

Yaoxochitl at aol.com schrieb:

> Karen, I think your'e wrong.  Im sure that "axcan Quemah" is Nahuatl for
> "today, yes"

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
Austria
tel: 01/ 524 54 60
0676/ 398 66 79


From Richard.Haly at colorado.edu  Thu Dec  2 17:34:33 1999
From: Richard.Haly at colorado.edu (Richard Haly)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:34:33 -0700
Subject: Axcan quemah
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.103433.0700.>

> Karen, I think your'e wrong.  Im sure that "axcan Quemah" is Nahuatl for
> "today, yes"

Maybe that wasn't too clear, but I'm sure Dr. Dakin meant that as a joke on
her husband's part as one isn't as likely to learn Greek or Russian in
Morelos as Nahuatl. She knows her Nahuatl.

Moreover, axcan quemah doesn't mean "Today, yes" but is a translation of
"ahora, si" which isn't so much "literally" translatable into words as it is
primarily a sign of strong assent. Thus, "translation" means to note when a
speaker says it because then you're on the right track with whatever
prompted it. When I am working and interviewing in Nahuatl and wanting to
question whether I've understood something, I will propose an if/then
question based on the logic of what I've been told. If I receive an axcan
quemah as a reply (as opposed to no reply or a confused look), then I'm
pretty sure that I can go further. Japanese "hai" is similar. People
translate it as "yes" meaning agreement, when it often means "I hear what
your saying, I follow you" just as "unhuh" does in English. If I'm telling
you a story and you interject "unhuh" every so often, that doesn't mean you
agree with what I'm saying, but means that you are following what I'm
saying. By the way, interviews conducted without this sort of feedback tend
to be 30% shorter than those with such interactivity.

Best,

Richard


From Richard.Haly at colorado.edu  Thu Dec  2 17:37:33 1999
From: Richard.Haly at colorado.edu (Richard Haly)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:37:33 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.103733.0700.>

> I'm afraid "ecole! ecole cua!"  has nothing to do with Nahuatl.
> It is pure Italian "ecco li qua" and means 'here they are' or
> 'here it is'.
> Were there any immigrants from Italy at 'Amozoc, Puebla'?
This is interesting, though there may still be another source. I think e cu=
a
and maybe ecole cua are exclaimed quite often in Afro-Cubano music of
Santer=EDa such as that by Celina [Gonz=E1lez] y Reutilio: e e ecua babalu ay e
ecua: where babalu =3D vodoun priest.

So there may be African sources or indigenous island sources. At any rate, =
I
don't think it's Nahuatl.

Best,

Richard


From micc at home.com  Thu Dec  2 20:28:49 1999
From: micc at home.com (micc)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:28:49 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.132849.0700.>

It is interesting that an italian phrase made it into what normally
would be "lower" income communities,villages, and towns!  You would
think that onlyt the "cosmopolitan"
Chilangos (like myself!) would use a "foreign" phrase. Like to day my
cousins use

cio!
Oki dohki!

radical vato........




Salvador Calder?n wrote:
>
> Ecole! Ecole cua!
> My father also uses it all the time.He's from Michoacan, raised in Veracruz
> and lives in Mexico City since 12 years old.
> I think everybody uses it.
>
> Salvador Calderon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: micc <micc at home.com>
> To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 8:36 AM
> Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
>
> > thanks!!! Fianlly I know.  It is interesting that my friends from a very
> > "Mexican" barrio of Santa Cruz de Atenco, in Tacuba, use this phrase a
> > lot!!!!!
> >
> > Leonel Hermida wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm afraid "ecole! ecole cua!"  has nothing to do with Nahuatl.
> > > It is pure Italian "ecco li qua" and means 'here they are' or
> > > 'here it is'.
> > > Were there any immigrants from Italy at 'Amozoc, Puebla'?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Leonel
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: micc <micc at home.com>
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> > > Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 1:43 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
> > >
> > > Since we are onto interesting derivations here's one that has been
> > > bugging me for decades:
> > >
> > > My grandmothers family was from Amozoc, Puebla,  I believe a nahuatl
> > > speaking area.
> > >
> > > She used to always say "ecole! ecole cua!"  we we might say "right On!
> > > that's it!!!"
> > > Since I am a unrepented Chilango, living in Aztlan, I have mucha familia
> > > in el D.F., as well as friends. occasionally this phrase pops out, but
> > > no one can tell me where it is derived...
> > >
> > > any takers?........
> > >
> > > John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Two interesting Mexican Spanish words that are from Nahuatl
> > > >         1. chamaco(a), from ixamanca, its sprout or bud (of a plant)
> > > >         2. cuelele (with an accent over the first "e", meaning  "hurry
> up").
> > > This
> > > > is very strange because it is a Spanish command with no other
> conjugated
> > > > forms (it doesn't come from "colar"), and it is derived from the
> nahuatl
> > > > "cueleh", "quickly".
> > > >
> > > >         John Sullivan
> > > >         Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
> > > >
> > > > -----Mensaje original-----
> > > > De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre
> de
> > > > John F. Schwaller
> > > > Enviado el: Martes, 30 de Noviembre de 1999 09:30 a.m.
> > > > Para: Multiple recipients of list
> > > > Asunto: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin
> > > >
> > > > Joe's list is a very good one.  One Spanish word missing is
> > > >
> > > > tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone)
> > > >
> > > > John Frederick Schwaller
> schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> > > > Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> > > > The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
> > > >                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
> >


From micc at home.com  Thu Dec  2 20:44:45 1999
From: micc at home.com (micc)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:44:45 -0700
Subject: Axcan quemah
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.134445.0700.>

Ecole Cua!!!!

Richard Haly wrote:
>
> > Karen, I think your'e wrong.  Im sure that "axcan Quemah" is Nahuatl for
> > "today, yes"
>
> Maybe that wasn't too clear, but I'm sure Dr. Dakin meant that as a joke on
> her husband's part as one isn't as likely to learn Greek or Russian in
> Morelos as Nahuatl. She knows her Nahuatl.
>
> Moreover, axcan quemah doesn't mean "Today, yes" but is a translation of
> "ahora, si" which isn't so much "literally" translatable into words as it is
> primarily a sign of strong assent. Thus, "translation" means to note when a
> speaker says it because then you're on the right track with whatever
> prompted it. When I am working and interviewing in Nahuatl and wanting to
> question whether I've understood something, I will propose an if/then
> question based on the logic of what I've been told. If I receive an axcan
> quemah as a reply (as opposed to no reply or a confused look), then I'm
> pretty sure that I can go further. Japanese "hai" is similar. People
> translate it as "yes" meaning agreement, when it often means "I hear what
> your saying, I follow you" just as "unhuh" does in English. If I'm telling
> you a story and you interject "unhuh" every so often, that doesn't mean you
> agree with what I'm saying, but means that you are following what I'm
> saying. By the way, interviews conducted without this sort of feedback tend
> to be 30% shorter than those with such interactivity.
>
> Best,
>
> Richard


From andreamb at mail.giga.com  Fri Dec  3 05:18:43 1999
From: andreamb at mail.giga.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Andrea_Mart=EDnez_B=2E=22?=)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:18:43 -0700
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Cambio_de_direcci=F3n?=
Message-ID: <THU.2.DEC.1999.221843.0700.>

Estimado senor Schwaller:

Cambio mi direccion electronica. La nueva es andreamb at infosel.net.mx
=BFPodria registrar este cambio en el web tan valioso que usted dirige?
Disculpe por utilizar esta via, pero perdi la referencia para registrar
estos cambios de modo mas automatico.
Gracias

Andrea Martinez


From ochoa at scd.hp.com  Fri Dec  3 23:32:11 1999
From: ochoa at scd.hp.com (Marcos Ochoa)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:32:11 -0700
Subject: Spanish/English Words ...THANKS!
Message-ID: <FRI.3.DEC.1999.163211.0700.>

I want to take this opportuniy to express my gratitude to all who did and to all
who will respond to this post. 2 days and still going strong on (2 lists)! You
all have taught me a great deal.

Thank You,
-Marc.


From leonelhermida at netc.pt  Mon Dec  6 12:36:28 1999
From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 05:36:28 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status
Message-ID: <MON.6.DEC.1999.053628.0700.>

Hi,

This will perhaps be considered "deja vu", but I've never seen it discussed
before and would like to know: what is the status of 'Nahuatl' in Mexico
first and in the world today?

Please forgive me if I use some material from a book I once came across
(and have read 3 or 4 times since), namely Bernard Comrie's "The
languages of the Soviet Union", C.U.P. 1981.
1." At one end of the scale, we have languages that are spoken by very
small population groups" (let us say by less than 10,000 people)," that have
no written form, and are normally spoken by people who are bilingual
in one of the larger languages".
2. "Secondly, there are languages that have a written form and are used
to a very limited extent in publication, but are not used as media of
education. In many instances this is a transitional stage in the phasing
out of a written language, since clearly a written language will soon
cease to have an audience if its speakers are not taught how to read it."
One such language is Yiddish in the USSR, another being Kurdish.
3. "The third class in this functional classification is where a language
is used quite extensively in publication (e.g. children's books, basic
political litterature, newspapers, short stories, even novels), and is
also used as the medium of instruction in the first few grades of school,
after which instruction shifts to another language (though the native
language may still be taught as a school subject)". An example is
Chukchi, spoken in East Siberia...
4. "Fourthly, there are languages which are used in a wide range of
publications, including some technical subjects, and are used as media
of education throughout the school system (though often not in further
education)". Examples are Chechen, Abkhaz, Komi, ...
5. Fifthly, there are languages which, in addition to having the above
functions, are also used as educational media in universities, and are
effectively used as co-government languages in the internal adminis-
tration of the corresponding administrative area.
6. Finally only Russian, etc. etc. (Here one should say only Spanish,etc.
etc.)

Now: what happens with Nahuatl? Is instruction provided in the so-called
'classical form' (hope Richard will not scold on this), or otherwise?
What are the numbers? How far is Nahuatl used in the press? How
does it compare with for example Basque and Catalan in Spain today?
Is there an Academy of the Nahuatl Language? What is the situation
now and which are the prospects as to the future?
I shall not give up studying 'Cassical Nahuatl'  whatever the actual
situation of the language, but I would like to learn more about the facts
of yesterday and today...

Thank you.
Best regards,

Leonel


From leonelhermida at netc.pt  Tue Dec  7 11:22:46 1999
From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 04:22:46 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status (ii)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.DEC.1999.042246.0700.>

Hi,

I'm afraid the silence to my query indicates the situation of Nahuatl
is perhaps worse than I foresaw and nobody wants to be the first to
deal with it. After all, what countries were as long-sighted as the Danish
in Greenland (where they promoted Greenlandic (Eskimo) with a
tremendous success)? I remember to have heard when they came to
translate the phrase "lamb of God" in the Bible they had to resort to
"young reindeer of God"!  But people understood and Greenlandic is
thriving nowadays with its 40 or 50 thousand adherents...
But statistics don't offend and I think it is better discuss such a 'delicate'
subject than to ignore it. My own country has also done nothing with
the native languages spoken within its former colonies: zero times zero!...
Spain, France and Brittain did the same inside their frontiers, and only
this century did languages such as Basque and Catalan in Spain and Welsh
and Gaelic (?) in Brittain gain full status as ordinary written languages...
But it is my opinion that the world will be less rich if it allows languages
such as Nahuatl to die out when they can and should be kept alive. I don't
know if a language with less than 10,000 speakers can be reasonably
expected to survive in the modern world, but if 'Mexicano' has perhaps more
than 1,000,000 (as I have heard off-list, because it is known only by
'hear-say' as there are no reliable statistics, I presume), that will be a
disaster to let it die out... Worse still: a language which has a 'classical'
literature and such a facility to form new words would perhaps do better than
most can which have no such ability, in creating its own modern vocabulary!
The discussion of the means by which that can be done are off-topic and
cannot be discussed here. But the number of its speakers, its division into
dialects, and a rough indication of the 'status' of Nahuatl in the world to-day
can and should be spoken of here...

Best regards,

Leonel


From ECOLING at aol.com  Tue Dec  7 16:40:13 1999
From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:40:13 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status (ii)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.DEC.1999.094013.0700.>

Leonel:

Patience.
Responses do not usually come immediately.
I have no personal knowledge, or I would respond.

Lloyd Anderson


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Tue Dec  7 16:44:14 1999
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:44:14 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status (ii)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.DEC.1999.094414.0700.>

I'll answer your query Leonel.  I too have heard that there  are about 1.5
million speakers of Nahuatl.  A friend of mine who is a "danzante" interacted
with fellow Mexicah dancers down in D.F. and according to him the language is
alive and well, in fact, gaining momentum with non-speakers to learn it also.
 It appears that there might be a Nahuatl "fever" spreading throughout Anawak
though here in the U.S. nobody hears about it.  I believe Nahuatl will endure
even with encroachment of Spanish unleashed by the Mexican government's
language policies on its mother tongues.  The majority of Mexicans regard
their native language as socioeconomically backwards even going as far as
expressing self-hatred by labelling Nahuatl speakers as "indio."  Self-hatred
in the sense that these same Mexicans that insult and belittle, not only
Nahuatl speakers but all speakers of an indigenous language, most likely have
native blood running through their veins themselves since about 90% of the
population of Mexico constitutes mixed and full-blooded indigena.  I am
drifting into other topics here, but the bottom line is, Nahuatl will endure.


From hernand at dcsun1.epfl.ch  Tue Dec  7 17:57:09 1999
From: hernand at dcsun1.epfl.ch (Jose Maria Hernandez Gil)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:57:09 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status
Message-ID: <TUE.7.DEC.1999.105709.0700.>

Hello, this is my first post. I have some information and first hand
information that could be interesting. I'm a Spanish-speaking Mexican,
but I'm beginning to learn Nahuatl little by little.

Most statistic I have seen regarding Nahuatl put it at more than 1.2
million. This is the official government data from 1990, so today it
could easily be around 1.5 million (or more). It isn't small at all and
since the population growth rate of Nahuatl-speaking Mexicans is higher
than Spanish-speaking Mexicans, the percentage grows every census. Other
Mexican languages are in much, much worse shape.

Nahuatl as a homogeneous entity does not seem to exist as is. I liken it
to the Schwyzerdutsch in Switzerland. There is a lot of fragmentation and
sometimes the dialects are not intelligible (any additional information
regarding this?)

Written forms of Nahuatl seem to be very chaotic also. The original
people that used Roman script were not very careful and sometimes you see
the same words with multiple variants. Now days, there's also the problem
that some people use english based orthography while others keep the
original orthography. Personally, I prefer the "spanish" based one since
it seems more original and the actual similarities to Iberian Castillian
phonetics is limited at best (the j, c, z, x, tz and tl can confuse
Spaniards.)

Education in Nahuatl has begun to appear recently also, as well as the
other major Mexican languages.  As to the quality of the education I
can't say. Literature also seems to be begin to appear, I even heard that
a novel in Nahuatl won an international native language prize in Cuba a
few years back. There is no higher education in Nahuatl but I think it's
more from lack of demand than by design. Nahuatl (as well as other
Mexican languages) seem to enjoy quite a bit of usage in smaller towns
and villages government, but in larger cities they seem to take a back
seat.

Comparisons between Basque and Catalan would not be useful I think. Both
Euskadi and Catalunya are very industrialized off in comparison to other
regions of Spain, while the opposite is true for the Nahuatl speaking
regions of Mexico. Nor Breton and Corsican (which enjoy absolutely no
official status in France BTW). In Europe, only Irish or Rheto-Rumansch
could compare.

Yaoxochtil is right in the way most Mexicans view Nahuatl although I've
found it's mostly the older people. Younger Mexicans (>25 years) are more
proud of it and see it as a part of their heritage.

I've been to several places where Nahuatl is spoken. It seems to be a
very live language. People make CDs in it and you see little children
speaking it. I do not doubt it will survive, but I wonder as to how it
will live.

Some interesting links follow.

Chema


http://www.sedesol.gob.mx/ini/len9095.htm
http://www.inegi.gob.mx/poblacion/espanol/estudios/censo90.html
http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/countries/Mexi.html



"if, as you say, our gods are dead,
 it is better that you allow us to die too.
 ...
 we cannot be tranquil,
 and yet we certainly do not believe;
 we do not accept your teachings as truth,
 even though this may offend you."

in tlamatinime


From borge at stud.uni-frankfurt.de  Tue Dec  7 18:56:01 1999
From: borge at stud.uni-frankfurt.de (Dino Borgeche)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:56:01 -0700
Subject: nahuatl status (ii)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.DEC.1999.115601.0700.>

Dear Leonel

According to official Mexican statistics, Nahuatl is slowly growing.

1.197.328 were registered as nahuatl speakers in 1990

1.325 440 were registrered as nahuatl speakers in 1995

(source:Instituto Nacional Indigenista
 http://www.sedesol.gob.mx/ini/basica.htm)

The actual number might be somewhat higher, bilingual Meztisos are not
included in this number and I guess INI is likely to underestimate the
number of speakers...

Dino



>Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 11:19:47 +0000
>From: Leonel Hermida <leonelhermida at netc.pt>
>To: nahuat-list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Nahuatl status (ii)
>Message-ID: <00f601bf40a5$325b77e0$c0b912d4 at mop93410>
>
>Hi,
>
>I'm afraid the silence to my query indicates the situation of Nahuatl
>is perhaps worse than I foresaw and nobody wants to be the first to
>deal with it. After all, what countries were as long-sighted as the Danish
>in Greenland (where they promoted Greenlandic (Eskimo) with a
>tremendous success)? I remember to have heard when they came to
>translate the phrase "lamb of God" in the Bible they had to resort to
>"young reindeer of God"!  But people understood and Greenlandic is
>thriving nowadays with its 40 or 50 thousand adherents...
>But statistics don't offend and I think it is better discuss such a 'delicate'
>subject than to ignore it. My own country has also done nothing with
>the native languages spoken within its former colonies: zero times zero!...
>Spain, France and Brittain did the same inside their frontiers, and only
>this century did languages such as Basque and Catalan in Spain and Welsh
>and Gaelic (?) in Brittain gain full status as ordinary written languages...
>But it is my opinion that the world will be less rich if it allows languages
>such as Nahuatl to die out when they can and should be kept alive. I don't
>know if a language with less than 10,000 speakers can be reasonably
>expected to survive in the modern world, but if 'Mexicano' has perhaps more
>than 1,000,000 (as I have heard off-list, because it is known only by
>'hear-say' as there are no reliable statistics, I presume), that will be a
>disaster to let it die out... Worse still: a language which has a 'classical'
>literature and such a facility to form new words would perhaps do better than
>most can which have no such ability, in creating its own modern vocabulary!
>The discussion of the means by which that can be done are off-topic and
>cannot be discussed here. But the number of its speakers, its division into
>dialects, and a rough indication of the 'status' of Nahuatl in the world to-day
>can and should be spoken of here...
>
>Best regards,
>
>Leonel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of NAHUAT-L Digest 874
>**************************
>


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Dec  7 21:17:52 1999
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:17:52 -0700
Subject: List commands
Message-ID: <TUE.7.DEC.1999.141752.0700.>

Dear Subscribers,

In the next few weeks many people will probably be going on vacations of
one sort or another.  While you are gone, please unsubscribe from Nahuat-l.
 This will prevent your electronic mailbox from filling and then sending
error messages back to the rest of the list.  When you return you may
always re-subscribe.

For those of you who have lost the commands here are some instructions:
Commands are sent to listproc at server.umt.edu  with no other contents in the
message than the one line

To Unsubscribe:

unsub nahuat-l

To Subscribe

sub nahuat-l Emiliano Zapata
 (where you substitute your name for Emiliano Zapata)

For further information on the Listproc commands see:
http://www.umt.edu/cis/helpdesk/handouts/listproc.htm

J. F. Schwaller,
List Owner




John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From robc at csufresno.edu  Tue Dec  7 22:40:01 1999
From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert G. Comegys)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:40:01 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status - rumors from California
Message-ID: <TUE.7.DEC.1999.154001.0700.>

Dear nauhuateros and Leonel especially,

Take heart, the Nahuatl may be growing in the underworld.

I have no personal knowledge of this, but my brother who teaches at a junior high
school in the small agricultural town of Madera north of Fresno reports the local
Mexican Mafia gang members are starting to learn nahuatl.

Madera,  like many other small towns in California's central valley, is a terminus
for drugs brought in from Mexico and further south. Fresno and the surrounding
area (including Madera) is traditionally reputed to be neutral territory between
the Los Angeles and San Francisco organized crime syndicates. Last I heard, drugs
in the area are controlled by what we call the Mexican Mafia.

By analogy with the use of gaelic by the IRA and others during the late Irish
rebellion, I would speculate that in a generation or two we may anticipate endowed
chairs in Nahuatl at major universities.

I looked around on the web for evidence of Nahuatl being used by gangs. What I
found was the following: "Pepici kluci pytlici" (accent mark on first i in
pytlici) This heading was followed by or in response to "I want to get high on
mota rica". The message may be found at http://www.cypressonline.com/bbs.htm
I found it by running   "Mexican Mafia" and aztec language  on a search engine.

Anyone want to try their hand at this? Judging by the English and Spanish these
young gangsters use I doubt if it would be in a dictionary. I believe this may be
evidence of what Leonel referred to as Nahuatl's "facility to form new words".

All the best,

John Comegys

Leonel Hermida wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm afraid the silence to my query indicates the situation of Nahuatl
> is perhaps worse than I foresaw ....

> A language which has a 'classical' literature and such a facility to form new
> words would perhaps do better than most can which have no such ability, in
> creating its own modern vocabulary!

> The discussion of the means by which that can be done are off-topic and
> cannot be discussed here.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Leonel


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Dec  7 23:03:08 1999
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:03:08 -0700
Subject: Extent of Nahuatl
Message-ID: <TUE.7.DEC.1999.160308.0700.>

Dear List members,

In the fifteen or so years that I have had the honor of running Nahuat-l
one of the leitmotifs has been the use of Nahuatl in the California prison
system.  A month does not go by that I am not requested to assist an inmate
in learning Nahuatl, or an order for the Foundation Course on Nahuatl.
Similarly individuals who identify themselves as guards also request this
same information.  I have no idea what if any actual activity goes on
behind bars in Nahuatl.  All I can report on is the queries which come to me.

J. F. Schwaller,
List Owner


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From leonelhermida at netc.pt  Thu Dec  9 09:51:00 1999
From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 02:51:00 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status
Message-ID: <THU.9.DEC.1999.025100.0700.>

Hi,

Many thanks to all people who bothered to respond to my query on the
status of the Nahuatl language. One information here, another there and
one feels a little better. I could not check all the links provided by Jose
Maria, probably due to difficulties of communication on the Web but could
find valuable information both at
http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/countries/Mexi.html  and
http://www.inegi.gob.mx/poblacion/espanol/estudios/censo90.html
though the former source lists not less than 27 flavours, varieties or dialects
of Nahuatl as 27 different 'languages'! No wonder it gets a total of 295
'languages' for Mexico (289 of which are living 'languages', so we are told),
which means probably some 10 to 20 different languages (as a guess), all
this for 1991 or so.
I would not object about comparing the state of the Nahuatl dialects in
Mexico with the state of German dialects in Switzerland (or in all the
German speaking area as a whole). I guess mutual intelligibility is probably
low in distant parts of the dialectal chain in both cases but similarities
end here.
Comparing Schwyzerdutsch in Switzerland with Nahuatl in Mexico
would only be reasonable if one were to compare also the number of
Schwyzerdutsch speakers that are litterate in 'Standard German' with
the number of Nahuatl speakers that are litterate in 'Classical Nahuatl'.
Any ideas about the percentages in one case and in the other?

Jose Maria tells us that there is no higher education in Nahuatl but he
thinks it's more 'from lack of demand than by design'. How could it be
otherwise when we learn that education in Nahuatl is barely beginning
as is also litterary production?
I think what is urgent now in all the Nahuatl speaking areas is the
implementation of a net of grade schools (perhaps you would have to
form teachers, first...), but that is only possible if all Mexican people
is really disposed to pay for it and begins to act without delay. Be
sure no one is going to do it for you. I would bet it is also the best as
a vaccination against 'revolutions'...( You have the examples of the IRA
in Ireland and the ETA in Spain!). What the hell are you waiting for??

Thank you.
Best regards,
Leonel


-----Original Message-----
From: Jose Maria Hernandez Gil <hernand at dcsun1.epfl.ch>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: Nahuatl status


>Hello, this is my first post. I have some information and first hand
>information that could be interesting. I'm a Spanish-speaking Mexican,
>but I'm beginning to learn Nahuatl little by little.
>
>Most statistic I have seen regarding Nahuatl put it at more than 1.2
>million. This is the official government data from 1990, so today it
>could easily be around 1.5 million (or more). It isn't small at all and
>since the population growth rate of Nahuatl-speaking Mexicans is higher
>than Spanish-speaking Mexicans, the percentage grows every census. Other
>Mexican languages are in much, much worse shape.
>
>Nahuatl as a homogeneous entity does not seem to exist as is. I liken it
>to the Schwyzerdutsch in Switzerland. There is a lot of fragmentation and
>sometimes the dialects are not intelligible (any additional information
>regarding this?)
>
>Written forms of Nahuatl seem to be very chaotic also. The original
>people that used Roman script were not very careful and sometimes you see
>the same words with multiple variants. Now days, there's also the problem
>that some people use english based orthography while others keep the
>original orthography. Personally, I prefer the "spanish" based one since
>it seems more original and the actual similarities to Iberian Castillian
>phonetics is limited at best (the j, c, z, x, tz and tl can confuse
>Spaniards.)
>
>Education in Nahuatl has begun to appear recently also, as well as the
>other major Mexican languages.  As to the quality of the education I
>can't say. Literature also seems to be begin to appear, I even heard that
>a novel in Nahuatl won an international native language prize in Cuba a
>few years back. There is no higher education in Nahuatl but I think it's
>more from lack of demand than by design. Nahuatl (as well as other
>Mexican languages) seem to enjoy quite a bit of usage in smaller towns
>and villages government, but in larger cities they seem to take a back
>seat.
>
>Comparisons between Basque and Catalan would not be useful I think. Both
>Euskadi and Catalunya are very industrialized off in comparison to other
>regions of Spain, while the opposite is true for the Nahuatl speaking
>regions of Mexico. Nor Breton and Corsican (which enjoy absolutely no
>official status in France BTW). In Europe, only Irish or Rheto-Rumansch
>could compare.
>
>Yaoxochtil is right in the way most Mexicans view Nahuatl although I've
>found it's mostly the older people. Younger Mexicans (>25 years) are more
>proud of it and see it as a part of their heritage.
>
>I've been to several places where Nahuatl is spoken. It seems to be a
>very live language. People make CDs in it and you see little children
>speaking it. I do not doubt it will survive, but I wonder as to how it
>will live.
>
>Some interesting links follow.
>
>Chema
>
>
>http://www.sedesol.gob.mx/ini/len9095.htm
>http://www.inegi.gob.mx/poblacion/espanol/estudios/censo90.html
>http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/countries/Mexi.html
>
>
>
>"if, as you say, our gods are dead,
> it is better that you allow us to die too.
> ...
> we cannot be tranquil,
> and yet we certainly do not believe;
> we do not accept your teachings as truth,
> even though this may offend you."
>
>in tlamatinime
>


From leonelhermida at netc.pt  Thu Dec  9 13:43:07 1999
From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 06:43:07 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status (bis)
Message-ID: <THU.9.DEC.1999.064307.0700.>

Of course what I meant by  'a net of grade schools' was 'a true (not
half-hearted) net of schools providing basic instruction in Nahuatl for
all Nahuatl-speaking children at least for the first few grades (to
begin with)'. And if it is urged that there is no accepted standard for
the language, the answer is by remarking there is 'Classical Nahuatl'
(Arab-speaking countries do it with 'Classical Arabic') and traditional
orthography based in that of Spanish is not that bad and would be
perhaps the most economical choice. (Of course if one began from
scratch one could achieve better, but you are not beginning from
scratch...)

Best,
Leonel


-----Original Message-----
From: Leonel Hermida <leonelhermida at netc.pt>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: Thursday, December 09, 1999 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: Nahuatl status



>I think what is urgent now in all the Nahuatl speaking areas is the
>implementation of a net of grade schools (perhaps you would have to
>form teachers, first...), but that is only possible if all Mexican people
>is really disposed to pay for it and begins to act without delay. Be
>sure no one is going to do it for you. I would bet it is also the best as
>a vaccination against 'revolutions'...( You have the examples of the IRA
>in Ireland and the ETA in Spain!). What the hell are you waiting for??
>
>Thank you.
>Best regards,
>Leonel
>
>


From mikegaby at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 10 20:38:14 1999
From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:38:14 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status (ii)
Message-ID: <FRI.10.DEC.1999.133814.0700.>

Nahuatl is alive and well in the california penal system.  Inmates use it as
a coded language the guards cannot understand
Mike


>From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com
>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: Nahuatl status (ii)
>Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:44:36 -0700
>
>I'll answer your query Leonel.  I too have heard that there  are about 1.5
>million speakers of Nahuatl.  A friend of mine who is a "danzante"
>interacted
>with fellow Mexicah dancers down in D.F. and according to him the language
>is
>alive and well, in fact, gaining momentum with non-speakers to learn it
>also.
>  It appears that there might be a Nahuatl "fever" spreading throughout
>Anawak
>though here in the U.S. nobody hears about it.  I believe Nahuatl will
>endure
>even with encroachment of Spanish unleashed by the Mexican government's
>language policies on its mother tongues.  The majority of Mexicans regard
>their native language as socioeconomically backwards even going as far as
>expressing self-hatred by labelling Nahuatl speakers as "indio."
>Self-hatred
>in the sense that these same Mexicans that insult and belittle, not only
>Nahuatl speakers but all speakers of an indigenous language, most likely
>have
>native blood running through their veins themselves since about 90% of the
>population of Mexico constitutes mixed and full-blooded indigena.  I am
>drifting into other topics here, but the bottom line is, Nahuatl will
>endure.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From mikegaby at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 10 20:42:57 1999
From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:42:57 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status - rumors from California
Message-ID: <FRI.10.DEC.1999.134257.0700.>

San Diego gangs have also adopted Nahuatl words into their language, most
likely corrupted, just as ASL has been corrupted and is now used to signify
their affiliations through hand gestures.
Mike


>From: "Robert G. Comegys" <robc at csufresno.edu>
>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Nahuatl status - rumors from California
>Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:40:27 -0700
>
>Dear nauhuateros and Leonel especially,
>
>Take heart, the Nahuatl may be growing in the underworld.
>
>I have no personal knowledge of this, but my brother who teaches at a
>junior high
>school in the small agricultural town of Madera north of Fresno reports the
>local
>Mexican Mafia gang members are starting to learn nahuatl.
>
>Madera,  like many other small towns in California's central valley, is a
>terminus
>for drugs brought in from Mexico and further south. Fresno and the
>surrounding
>area (including Madera) is traditionally reputed to be neutral territory
>between
>the Los Angeles and San Francisco organized crime syndicates. Last I heard,
>drugs
>in the area are controlled by what we call the Mexican Mafia.
>
>By analogy with the use of gaelic by the IRA and others during the late
>Irish
>rebellion, I would speculate that in a generation or two we may anticipate
>endowed
>chairs in Nahuatl at major universities.
>
>I looked around on the web for evidence of Nahuatl being used by gangs.
>What I
>found was the following: "Pepici kluci pytlici" (accent mark on first i in
>pytlici) This heading was followed by or in response to "I want to get high
>on
>mota rica". The message may be found at
>http://www.cypressonline.com/bbs.htm
>I found it by running   "Mexican Mafia" and aztec language  on a search
>engine.
>
>Anyone want to try their hand at this? Judging by the English and Spanish
>these
>young gangsters use I doubt if it would be in a dictionary. I believe this
>may be
>evidence of what Leonel referred to as Nahuatl's "facility to form new
>words".
>
>All the best,
>
>John Comegys
>
>Leonel Hermida wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm afraid the silence to my query indicates the situation of Nahuatl
> > is perhaps worse than I foresaw ....
>
> > A language which has a 'classical' literature and such a facility to
>form new
> > words would perhaps do better than most can which have no such ability,
>in
> > creating its own modern vocabulary!
>
> > The discussion of the means by which that can be done are off-topic and
> > cannot be discussed here.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Leonel
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From mexicapride at earthlink.net  Mon Dec 13 18:51:15 1999
From: mexicapride at earthlink.net (Tekpatltzin)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:51:15 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status - rumors from California
Message-ID: <MON.13.DEC.1999.115115.0700.>

Tiahui Listeros and Robert,

Just returned from a trip to Mexico to find this email re: Nahuatl use by Mexika
inmates in California. I write a MexiKa Consciousness newsletter that is distributed
to over 300 inmates throughout the US, especially to the prisons in Califas. The use
of Nahuatl by inmates is not a recent occurance. I know many of the inmates first
hand having participated in ceremonies with them. I would like to say that some of
the inmates have indeed used the Nahutal language to further thier own agendas. But
there is a vast majority that do not use the language in a negative fashion.My
newsletter talks about this matter. I am making this short as I do not have much time
at the moment. If any of you wish to learn more about this issue please feel free to
contact me. It is indeed a very sensitive issue especially when talking about La EME
(Mexcian Mafia).

Tlazohkamati,

Tekpatltzin



"Robert G. Comegys" wrote:

> Dear nauhuateros and Leonel especially,
>
> Take heart, the Nahuatl may be growing in the underworld.
>
> I have no personal knowledge of this, but my brother who teaches at a junior high
> school in the small agricultural town of Madera north of Fresno reports the local
> Mexican Mafia gang members are starting to learn nahuatl.
>
> Madera,  like many other small towns in California's central valley, is a terminus
> for drugs brought in from Mexico and further south. Fresno and the surrounding
> area (including Madera) is traditionally reputed to be neutral territory between
> the Los Angeles and San Francisco organized crime syndicates. Last I heard, drugs
> in the area are controlled by what we call the Mexican Mafia.
>


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Mon Dec 13 19:19:27 1999
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:19:27 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl status - rumors from California
Message-ID: <MON.13.DEC.1999.121927.0700.>

Tekpatl,
     I would like more info. on this matter.  Please email me at
Yaoxochitl at aol.com


From Richard.Haly at colorado.edu  Mon Dec 13 23:08:09 1999
From: Richard.Haly at colorado.edu (Richard Haly)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:08:09 -0700
Subject: Ma: Toltecs ?!!!
Message-ID: <MON.13.DEC.1999.160809.0700.>

Thanks, Jorge for taking the time to summarize all these findings. To
believe Nahua accounts of the "Toltecs" is tantamount to believing PRI
accounts of the Nahuas. Both have significant "nationalist" agendas.

Best,

Richard=20


>=20
> Having received many private communications of objections or questions
> raised by my previous reticence to accept the word "Toltec" in associatio=
n
> with Chich'en Itza (and the concept "Toltec" in general), I think it is
> better to try and explain myself on-list, so here goes:
>=20
> Some of the many problems of "Toltecs" overrunning, conquering and ruling
> Chich'en Itza include:
>=20
> 1. Despite the very evident artistic style change (as compared to Classic
> Maya style) that one can see in Chich'en Itza, the fact is that even the
> most recent buildings at that ancient city date from the end of the IX
> Century, almost 200 years before Tula, Hidalgo came into existence. Since
> the only people that are known as Toltec in Mesoamerica are the people wh=
o
> built Tula, Hidalgo, when somebody speaks of Toltecs ruling (and building=
)
> Chichen Itza, they run into an impossible-to-resolve time discrepancy.
>=20
> This long-lived confusion was created before finer dating methods came
> along:  Acosta, the archaeologist who restored the Temple of the Warriors
> at Chich'en Itza, moved on later to restore the platform of the "Atlantes=
"
> at Tula, Hidalgo and most probably allowed his interpretation of this
> platform to be influenced by his previous work in Chich'en. This accounts
> for an introduced "resemblance" between the two structures, which has bee=
n
> for a long time one of the central arguments for an alleged Toltec
> intervention in Chich'en. The fact is that many archaeologists are now
> deeply dissatisfied with Acosta's restoration work at Tula, particularly
> with his interpretation of the original appearance the platform of the
> Atlantes must have had.
>=20
> Even discounting the temporal impossibility alluded to in the previous
> paragraph, the comparatively puny size of Tula, Hidalgo as compared to
> Chich'en Itza (does it sound logical that a provincial colony should be
> much larger than the metropolis that conquered it?) would make of itself =
a
> strong argument against a Tula takeover of Chich'en Itza. Furthermore, if
> Tula was as powerful as it would have needed to be to conquer and establi=
sh
> such a prosperous colony 1,500 miles away from its heartland, why is ther=
e
> an absolute lack of evidence of other Tula-conquered territories/cities
> between Hidalgo and Yucatan?
>=20
> 2. To compound the iron-clad argument stemming from the impossibility of =
a
> possible contemporaneity between Chich'en Itza and Tula, there are also a
> myriad problems with the identification as Toltecs of the inhabitants of
> the site we now know as Tula, Hidalgo: we have no evidence that the
> inhabitants of this highland city were known as "Toltecs" in their own
> time. The names by which we now know them and their city were given to th=
em
> by the much later Aztec, when the city itself was already an old ruin and
> the civilization that had built it had passed. The fact that it is now
> known that the term "Tollan" (i.e., Tula) was high-powered political
> currency throughout the history of Mesoamerica further muddles the pictur=
e.
> "Tollan" may have been the name many important cities (such as Teotihuaca=
n,
> Tikal or Copan) may have given themselves at different points in time. Do=
es
> this make teotihuacanos, tikale=F1os or copanecos "Toltec"? Well... yes and
> no (but this is another story).
>=20
> 3. Every single text in Chichen Itza is written in Mayan, using Maya
> glyphs. Is there a great likelihood that invaders would leave records of
> their deeds in a language that was not theirs? The fact that the Chich'en
> Maya (a group that migrated from the Central Peten and who were known as
> 'Itza') were probably under heavy influence (as can be seen in the new ar=
t
> style) of some form of Central Mexican culture, probably through Gulf
> coastal trade, does not inescapably led to the conclusion that they were
> governed by Central Mexicans, Toltecs or otherwise. The arguments against
> this ever happening are, however, beyond the scope of an Aztlan posting.
>=20
> I think that the most likely explanation of what one sees in Chich'en
> Itza and other sites in Northern Yucatan during the terminal Classic is a
> breakdown of the old order (the phenomenon known as the Classic collapse)
> and a regrouping of the populations around new foci of power, some of whi=
ch
> probably emerged through control of trade. There is, for example, evidenc=
e
> for maritime trade by Chich'en Itza through a port in Isla Cerritos, not
> far from present-day Rio Lagartos. It is not inconceivable that the new
> order would have been more outward-looking than the previous one given a
> more heavy dependence on trade and the more frequent contact with
> foreigners this would have brought. This would have shown in the
> incorporation of foreign styles in art and architecture. Still, we have y=
et
> to come across any real evidence of foreign control in Maya territory.
>=20
> The books of Chilam Balam speak of many migrations and takeovers through
> time by different groups in the Yucatan peninsula. However heavily
> influenced by Central Mexican culture these groups (such as the Itza, the
> Cocom or the Xiu) may have been, there is still little doubt that they we=
re
> Maya. Linguistic evidence from the time of Spanish contact further
> reinforces this: the only language spoken in the whole peninsula was
> Yucatec Mayan.
>=20
> By the way, a wonderful rebuttal of one of Thompson's favorite examples
> of Putun takeover in the Central Peten (Seibal's late monuments) can be
> read in the Seibal chapter of Linda Schele's and Peter Mathews' 'Code of
> Kings'.
>=20
> Jorge Perez de Lara
> Mexico
>=20
> jorgepl at infosel.net.mx


From nancy at interfold.com  Tue Dec 14 07:27:03 1999
From: nancy at interfold.com (Nancy Feldman)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 00:27:03 -0700
Subject: Vocabulary Questions and Learning Nahuatl On-Line
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.002703.0700.>

To start off with, for a literary project I'm undertaking I'm needing the
translations of a few words, and I was hoping the list could help.  They're
primarily fairly simple, I think:

blue
red
black
white
green
bedchamber
garden
courtyard
library
sacrifice (noun)

As I've begun to study the Aztecs, I've wanted to read some things written
in their native language, and have wondered how best to begin the process of
learning the language.  Is there anyone on-line who would be willing to work
with me, or point me toward appropriate on-line lessons?  Are there any
vocabularies on-line, or that someone can send me?  Any help would be
appreciated.

Nancy


From mikenaim at bellsouth.net  Tue Dec 14 10:09:53 1999
From: mikenaim at bellsouth.net (Amy)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 03:09:53 -0700
Subject: Vocabulary Questions and Learning Nahuatl On-Line
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.030953.0700.>

> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3027993173_89199_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

I am trying to learn Nahuatl myself (and Spanish). Here are a few resources
that are quite interesting.I don't have any references here at home from
which I can look up those specific words. But, there also some Nahuatl
dictionaries that you can probably access at a University library. You may
also want to search
for used books on the subject.
http://www.bookfinder.com/

Here is a web site for the Nahuatl Language Institute at Yale University.
There are a few on-line lessons. They aren't easy. But, anything helps:

http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl/main/indexles.html

Here are some other interesting resources:

Lockhart, James. The Nahuas After the Conquest: A Social and CUltural
History of the Indians of             Central Mexico, Sixteenth through
Eighteenth Centuries. Stanford: Stanford University Press, 1992.

Lockhart, James, ed. We People Here: Nahuatl Accounts of the Conquest of
Mexico. Repertorium   Columbianum: Volume 1. Berkeley: University of
California Press, 1993.

Leon-Portilla, Miguel, ed. The Broken Spears: The Aztec Account of the
Conquest of Mexico. Boston: Beacon Press,1992.

Leon-Portilla, Miguel. Aztec Thought and Culture: A study of the Ancient
Nahuatl Mind. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press,1963.

Leon-Portilla, Miguel. Pre-Columbian Literatures of Mexico. Norman:
University of Oklahoma Press,1968


Here is a web site for the Nahuatl Language Institute at Yale University.
There are a few on-line lessons. They aren't easy. But, anything helps:

http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl/main/indexles.html

If you need any more info, feel free to e-mail me.

Amy Kinney


--MS_Mac_OE_3027993173_89199_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: Vocabulary Questions and Learning Nahuatl On-Line</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
Nancy,<BR>
<BR>
I am trying to learn Nahuatl myself (and Spanish). Here are a few resources=
 that are quite interesting.I don't have any references here at home from wh=
ich I can look up those specific words. But, there also some Nahuatl diction=
aries that you can probably access at a University library. You may also wan=
t to search <BR>
for used books on the subject.<BR>
http://www.bookfinder.com/<BR>
<BR>
Here is a web site for the Nahuatl Language Institute at Yale University. T=
here are a few on-line lessons. They aren't easy. But, anything helps:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl/main/indexles.html<BR>
<BR>
Here are some other interesting resources:<BR>
<BR>
Lockhart, James. <I>The Nahuas After the Conquest: A Social and CUltural Hi=
story of the Indians of &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Central Mexico, Sixteenth through Eighteenth Centuries.<=
/I> Stanford: Stanford University Press, 1992.<BR>
<BR>
Lockhart, James, ed. <I>We People Here: Nahuatl Accounts of the Conquest of=
 Mexico.</I> Repertorium &nbsp;&nbsp;Columbianum: Volume 1. Berkeley: Univer=
sity of California Press, 1993.<BR>
<BR>
Leon-Portilla, Miguel, ed. <I>The Broken Spears: The Aztec Account of the C=
onquest of Mexico.</I> Boston: Beacon Press,1992.<BR>
<BR>
Leon-Portilla, Miguel. <I>Aztec Thought and Culture: A study of the Ancient=
 Nahuatl Mind.</I> Norman: University of Oklahoma Press,1963.<BR>
<BR>
Leon-Portilla, Miguel. <I>Pre-Columbian Literatures of Mexico.</I> Norman: =
University of Oklahoma Press,1968<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Here is a web site for the Nahuatl Language Institute at Yale University. T=
here are a few on-line lessons. They aren't easy. But, anything helps:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl/main/indexles.html<BR>
<BR>
If you need any more info, feel free to e-mail me.<BR>
<BR>
Amy Kinney<BR>
<BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>

--MS_Mac_OE_3027993173_89199_MIME_Part--


From leonelhermida at netc.pt  Tue Dec 14 10:37:15 1999
From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 03:37:15 -0700
Subject: Learning Nahuatl On-Line
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.033715.0700.>

Hi Nancy,

I am myself a beginner (2 and a half months) so I could not teach you,
but the following are sites from where you could learn some basic
things (the sources are first order ones that you can trust).

http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl/nahuatl.html
http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl/nahugram.html
http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl/nahuatllessons/INL-00.html

http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/gateway.html
http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/nahmorph.htm
http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/florent.txt

If you have any basic difficulties that you don't want to spam the 'List' with
please feel free to contact me off-list. Perhaps I've had the same doubts...

Best regards,

Leonel


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Dec 14 15:26:22 1999
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:26:22 -0700
Subject: Learning Nahuatl On-Line
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.082622.0700.>

Dear Nancy

While there is no authoritative on-line course on Nahuatl, there is a good
textbook for beginners available through the mail.  It was written by R.
Joe Campbell and Frances Karttunen.  For information of acquiring it look
at the following:

http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/hotlinks.htm

J. F. Schwaller,
List Owner


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Dec 14 15:53:04 1999
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:53:04 -0700
Subject: Vocabulary Questions and Learning Nahuatl On-Line
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.085304.0700.>

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Nancy Feldman wrote:

> To start off with, for a literary project I'm undertaking I'm needing the
> translations of a few words, and I was hoping the list could help.  They're
> primarily fairly simple, I think:
>

Nancy Feldman,

I would suggest Campbell and Kartunnens introduction to Nahuatl that is
available from the owner of this list, Fritz Schwaller.  In the meantime,
here are the translations to your words:




> blue: texohtic
> red: chihchiltic
> black: tliltic
> white: iztac
> green: xoxoctic
> bedchamber: cochihuayan
> garden: xochitla (flower garden)
> courtyard: I dont know: I do know ballcourt: tlachtli
> library: amoxcalli
> sacrifice (noun): tlamictiliztli
>


Best,

Michael McCafferty


From dfrye at umich.edu  Tue Dec 14 16:30:07 1999
From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:30:07 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl On-Line, and a question
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.093007.0700.>

First, here is my chicken-and-egg question: I assume that there is a close
relation between "chihchiltic" red and "chilli" chile (pepper), but which
came first?

Second, here is my list of Nahuatl links, with the caveat that I have not
checked out all of them recently. (Please don't include the list if you
reply to the short question above!)


John Schwaller's University of Montana Nahuatl home page:
http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/

Joe Campbell's Tri-dialectical Nahuatl vocabulary:
http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/multidia.htm

A preliminary version of a dictionary of Ameyaltepec Nahuatl is posted at
http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl (click on Dictionary)

An excellent Prehispanic Calendars site:
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/calendar.html

The Aztec calendar pages:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~voorburg/aztec.html.

"Check out our site to see what modern day Mexica are up to":
http://www.mexica-movement.org

Tezozomoc's Nahuatl Home page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/4325/nahuatl.html
New pages relating to nahua spirituality:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/4325/tloque.html

The University of Pennsylvania Library has a new web page dealing with
items which might be of interest to scholars of Nahuatl:
 http://www.library.upenn.edu/special/gallery/kislak/index/cultural.html

The Templo Mayor Museum (INAH) has a new web site (via Arizona State); the
extensive pages include instructional guides to the Aztec culture and many
photos useful for Mesoamerican students:
http://archaeology.la.asu.edu/vm/mesoam/tm/pages2/index2.htm

Tom Fredericksen's "Aztec On-Line Student/Teacher Resource Center":
http://members.aol.com/spdtom/index.html

David Jordan's Web site has information on Nahuatl pronunciation:
http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl.html.

Spanish website for kids, some sections in Nahuatl:
http://www.kokone.com.mx

Jeff MacSwan's (UCLA, 1997) dissertation,'A Minimalist Approach to
Intrasentential Code Switching: Spanish-Nahuatl Bilingualism in Central
Mexico' (.pdf format):
http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/people/macswan/diss.html

Mole recipe:
http://www.slip.net/~bobnemo/mole.html

nice site on Nahuatl medicine:
http://www.mexicodesconocido.com.mx/hierbas/mednahua.htm

The Aztec Student Tearcher Resource Center page at:
http://members.aol.com/SPDTOM/index.html

The Azteca Web page at:
http://www.azteca.net/aztec/

The Mesoamerican Archeology Web page at:
http://copan.bioz.unibas.ch/meso.html

The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Mesoamerica at:
http://www.cultures.com/meso_resources/meso_encyclopedia/
meso_encyclopedia_home.html


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Tue Dec 14 17:07:23 1999
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:07:23 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl On-Line, and a question
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.100723.0700.>

Chilli came first in the Mexico basin, way before Nahuatl came.


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Dec 14 17:10:17 1999
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:10:17 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl On-Line, and a question
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.101017.0700.>

the pepper came first. salt came first for white, etc.


On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, David L. Frye wrote:

> First, here is my chicken-and-egg question: I assume that there is a close
> relation between "chihchiltic" red and "chilli" chile (pepper), but which
> came first?
>
> Second, here is my list of Nahuatl links, with the caveat that I have not
> checked out all of them recently. (Please don't include the list if you
> reply to the short question above!)
>
>
> John Schwaller's University of Montana Nahuatl home page:
> http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/
>
> Joe Campbell's Tri-dialectical Nahuatl vocabulary:
> http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/multidia.htm
>
> A preliminary version of a dictionary of Ameyaltepec Nahuatl is posted at
> http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl (click on Dictionary)
>
> An excellent Prehispanic Calendars site:
> http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/calendar.html
>
> The Aztec calendar pages:
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~voorburg/aztec.html.
>
> "Check out our site to see what modern day Mexica are up to":
> http://www.mexica-movement.org
>
> Tezozomoc's Nahuatl Home page:
> http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/4325/nahuatl.html
> New pages relating to nahua spirituality:
> http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/4325/tloque.html
>
> The University of Pennsylvania Library has a new web page dealing with
> items which might be of interest to scholars of Nahuatl:
>  http://www.library.upenn.edu/special/gallery/kislak/index/cultural.html
>
> The Templo Mayor Museum (INAH) has a new web site (via Arizona State); the
> extensive pages include instructional guides to the Aztec culture and many
> photos useful for Mesoamerican students:
> http://archaeology.la.asu.edu/vm/mesoam/tm/pages2/index2.htm
>
> Tom Fredericksen's "Aztec On-Line Student/Teacher Resource Center":
> http://members.aol.com/spdtom/index.html
>
> David Jordan's Web site has information on Nahuatl pronunciation:
> http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl.html.
>
> Spanish website for kids, some sections in Nahuatl:
> http://www.kokone.com.mx
>
> Jeff MacSwan's (UCLA, 1997) dissertation,'A Minimalist Approach to
> Intrasentential Code Switching: Spanish-Nahuatl Bilingualism in Central
> Mexico' (.pdf format):
> http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/people/macswan/diss.html
>
> Mole recipe:
> http://www.slip.net/~bobnemo/mole.html
>
> nice site on Nahuatl medicine:
> http://www.mexicodesconocido.com.mx/hierbas/mednahua.htm
>
> The Aztec Student Tearcher Resource Center page at:
> http://members.aol.com/SPDTOM/index.html
>
> The Azteca Web page at:
> http://www.azteca.net/aztec/
>
> The Mesoamerican Archeology Web page at:
> http://copan.bioz.unibas.ch/meso.html
>
> The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Mesoamerica at:
> http://www.cultures.com/meso_resources/meso_encyclopedia/
> meso_encyclopedia_home.html
>


Michael McCafferty
C.E.L.T.
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

*******************************************************************************
"Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
from the me that others don't know
to the other me that I don't know.

-Juan Ramon Jimenez

*******************************************************************************


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Dec 14 17:24:43 1999
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:24:43 -0700
Subject: Color questions
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.102443.0700.>

Does anyone know the reconstructed form for red in proto-Uto-Aztecan.

Were the ancestors of the Nahuatl-speaking groups agricultural folks
before they landed in the Valley of Mexico.

Was chihchiltic their word for red when they were pre-agricultural.


It only stands to reason that  an agricultural people would use the name
for an important, red food for their word for red. The proto-Algonquian
term for blood mec,kwi- became the term for red in most of the descendant
languages of these hunting people.


Michael
On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, David L. Frye wrote:

> First, here is my chicken-and-egg question: I assume that there is a close
> relation between "chihchiltic" red and "chilli" chile (pepper), but which
> came first?
>
> Second, here is my list of Nahuatl links, with the caveat that I have not
> checked out all of them recently. (Please don't include the list if you
> reply to the short question above!)
>
>
> John Schwaller's University of Montana Nahuatl home page:
> http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/
>
> Joe Campbell's Tri-dialectical Nahuatl vocabulary:
> http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/multidia.htm
>
> A preliminary version of a dictionary of Ameyaltepec Nahuatl is posted at
> http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl (click on Dictionary)
>
> An excellent Prehispanic Calendars site:
> http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/calendar.html
>
> The Aztec calendar pages:
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~voorburg/aztec.html.
>
> "Check out our site to see what modern day Mexica are up to":
> http://www.mexica-movement.org
>
> Tezozomoc's Nahuatl Home page:
> http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/4325/nahuatl.html
> New pages relating to nahua spirituality:
> http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/4325/tloque.html
>
> The University of Pennsylvania Library has a new web page dealing with
> items which might be of interest to scholars of Nahuatl:
>  http://www.library.upenn.edu/special/gallery/kislak/index/cultural.html
>
> The Templo Mayor Museum (INAH) has a new web site (via Arizona State); the
> extensive pages include instructional guides to the Aztec culture and many
> photos useful for Mesoamerican students:
> http://archaeology.la.asu.edu/vm/mesoam/tm/pages2/index2.htm
>
> Tom Fredericksen's "Aztec On-Line Student/Teacher Resource Center":
> http://members.aol.com/spdtom/index.html
>
> David Jordan's Web site has information on Nahuatl pronunciation:
> http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl.html.
>
> Spanish website for kids, some sections in Nahuatl:
> http://www.kokone.com.mx
>
> Jeff MacSwan's (UCLA, 1997) dissertation,'A Minimalist Approach to
> Intrasentential Code Switching: Spanish-Nahuatl Bilingualism in Central
> Mexico' (.pdf format):
> http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/people/macswan/diss.html
>
> Mole recipe:
> http://www.slip.net/~bobnemo/mole.html
>
> nice site on Nahuatl medicine:
> http://www.mexicodesconocido.com.mx/hierbas/mednahua.htm
>
> The Aztec Student Tearcher Resource Center page at:
> http://members.aol.com/SPDTOM/index.html
>
> The Azteca Web page at:
> http://www.azteca.net/aztec/
>
> The Mesoamerican Archeology Web page at:
> http://copan.bioz.unibas.ch/meso.html
>
> The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Mesoamerica at:
> http://www.cultures.com/meso_resources/meso_encyclopedia/
> meso_encyclopedia_home.html
>


Michael McCafferty
C.E.L.T.
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

*******************************************************************************
"Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
from the me that others don't know
to the other me that I don't know.

-Juan Ramon Jimenez

*******************************************************************************


From hernand at dcsun1.epfl.ch  Tue Dec 14 18:56:00 1999
From: hernand at dcsun1.epfl.ch (Jose Maria Hernandez Gil)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:56:00 -0700
Subject: Color questions
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.115600.0700.>

To my knowledge, the Mexica arrived in Aztlan around the time Teotihuacan
started to become a power (200-400 CE). Unless they went from being
agricultural to nomadic, they were not agricultural until well into this
millenium (around 1250?), when Tula fell and the Chichimeca started
entering the Anahuac and eventually the Valley. Perhaps other Nahuatl
speaking people were agricultural before, but I do not think that it is
+-200 years.

As to chilli being the root/derivative of chihchiltic, I would guess no.
First of all, chiles are always red (in fact the hottest ones I've tasted
were yellow) and most, I would say, are green. Anyway, given the common
nature of color, I would assume chihchiltic was in use well before the
arrival of the Mexica in Anahuac, before they came across chile. Perhaps
it might be related to a third word or be borrowed from a previous
language (my guess) and merely adapted to Nahuatl.

My 2 cents...
>
>Does anyone know the reconstructed form for red in proto-Uto-Aztecan.
>
>Were the ancestors of the Nahuatl-speaking groups agricultural folks
>before they landed in the Valley of Mexico.
>
>Was chihchiltic their word for red when they were pre-agricultural.
>
>
>It only stands to reason that  an agricultural people would use the name
>for an important, red food for their word for red. The proto-Algonquian
>term for blood mec,kwi- became the term for red in most of the descendant
>languages of these hunting people.


  ------------------------

  Jos=E9 Mar=EDa Hern=E1ndez
  Swiss Federal Institute of Technology - Lausanne
  Telephone: +41 21 / 693-5528


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Dec 14 21:05:57 1999
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:05:57 -0700
Subject: Dia de Guadalupe
Message-ID: <TUE.14.DEC.1999.140557.0700.>

On SUnday, National Public Radio on their program Sunday Weekedn Editon did
a 16 minute interview with Christopher Moroney, director of the San Antonio
Vocal Arts Ensemble, on the event of the release of their CD El Milagro de
Guadalupe (Iago/Talking Music IAGOCD214) which recreates some of the music
that might have been heard in the 1500's.  There are some real gaff's
regarding the Story of Guadalupe, but its is interesting.  You need Real
Audio to listen.  It is the last entry on the following page:

http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnpd01fm.cfm?PrgDate=12/12/1999&PrgID=10

J. F. Schwaller
List Owner


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Wed Dec 15 14:57:44 1999
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:57:44 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl On-Line, and a question
Message-ID: <WED.15.DEC.1999.075744.0700.>

I'm working under the assumption that the "chihchil" in "chihchiltic" is
actually a reduplicated "chilli". Concerning the origin of the word, it seems
to me that if Nahuatl speakers were conscious enough of the way they were
constructing words using this "-tic", then they may have changed their word
for colors as needed to maintain a direct relationship to their environment.
So, it doesn't seem too unlikely that they had a different word or even
multiple words for red before settling down as an agricultural society.
>>From a grammatical point of view, it seems to me that "chilli" would have to
come first because the "-tic" is a suffix ("ti" + past tense marker "c") added
to nouns to form adjectives. Here are some other examples:

acaltic = acalli (atl+calli=canoe) + ti + c = grooved
amatic=amatl (paper) + ti + c = papery
caxtic=caxitl (plate) + ti + c = concave
neltic=nelli (truth) + ti + c = true
nuectic=nuectli (honey) + ti + c = sweet
paltic= p/atl (water) + ti + c = watery, runny ["atl" originally began with
/p/. It seems that other Uto-Aztecan languages conserved the /p/ in their
words for water.]

I think that the "ti" makes the noun a verb meaning "to become", which then
takes the past tense "c". So, literally the prase would be something like "it
became red / like a chilli". But it functions similar to an adjective.

Galen


From campbel at indiana.edu  Wed Dec 15 17:11:53 1999
From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:11:53 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl On-Line, and a question
Message-ID: <WED.15.DEC.1999.101153.0700.>

Galen,

   I am really glad that you said that!  --And clearly and convincingly...
I was getting worried about the way we approached words and the things
they apply to.

All the best,

Joe



On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Galen Brokaw wrote:

> I'm working under the assumption that the "chihchil" in "chihchiltic" is
> actually a reduplicated "chilli". Concerning the origin of the word, it seems
> to me that if Nahuatl speakers were conscious enough of the way they were
> constructing words using this "-tic", then they may have changed their word
> for colors as needed to maintain a direct relationship to their environment.
> So, it doesn't seem too unlikely that they had a different word or even
> multiple words for red before settling down as an agricultural society.
> >From a grammatical point of view, it seems to me that "chilli" would have to
> come first because the "-tic" is a suffix ("ti" + past tense marker "c") added
> to nouns to form adjectives. Here are some other examples:
>
> acaltic = acalli (atl+calli=canoe) + ti + c = grooved
> amatic=amatl (paper) + ti + c = papery
> caxtic=caxitl (plate) + ti + c = concave
> neltic=nelli (truth) + ti + c = true
> nuectic=nuectli (honey) + ti + c = sweet
> paltic= p/atl (water) + ti + c = watery, runny ["atl" originally began with
> /p/. It seems that other Uto-Aztecan languages conserved the /p/ in their
> words for water.]
>
> I think that the "ti" makes the noun a verb meaning "to become", which then
> takes the past tense "c". So, literally the prase would be something like "it
> became red / like a chilli". But it functions similar to an adjective.
>
> Galen
>
>


From ochoa at scd.hp.com  Thu Dec 30 18:21:34 1999
From: ochoa at scd.hp.com (Marcos Ochoa)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:21:34 -0700
Subject: English Only Words Of Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.30.DEC.1999.112134.0700.>

Hello All,

I while back I asked for spanish and english words of nahuatl origins. I would
like to refine this list to english-only words of nahuatl origins. Or is it that
ALL english words of nahua origins always come to us via a spanish "filter"?

Regards,
Marcos Romero-Ochoa


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Dec 30 22:48:40 1999
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 15:48:40 -0700
Subject: English Only Words Of Nahuatl Origin
Message-ID: <THU.30.DEC.1999.154840.0700.>

It would seem that most if not all came to English from Spanish, as there
was scant or no contact between English speakers and Nahuatl speakers.
At the same time, it is not impossible that a few words came to English
through French, given the history of Mexico. But you will have
to do some fancy in-depth philological phootwork to phigure out if any
came into English directly from Nahuatl.

Best,

Michael McCafferty

On Thu, 30 Dec 1999, Marcos Ochoa wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I while back I asked for spanish and english words of nahuatl origins. I would
> like to refine this list to english-only words of nahuatl origins. Or is it that
> ALL english words of nahua origins always come to us via a spanish "filter"?
>
> Regards,
> Marcos Romero-Ochoa
>


Michael McCafferty
C.E.L.T.
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

*******************************************************************************
"Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
from the me that others don't know
to the other me that I don't know.

-Juan Ramon Jimenez

*******************************************************************************