From robc at csufresno.edu Tue Jun 1 14:35:09 1999 From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert G. Comegys) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 08:35:09 -0600 Subject: Hospital infantil Message-ID: This is the original question to the Hospital series. Some of the answers might be useful. Jorge de Buen wrote: > --------------1AB363E47244C5B4A3C1ED2B > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Tijuana, B. C., a 30 de mayo de 1999 > > Estimados amigos: > > �C�mo dir�an en n�huatl Hospital Infantil de las > Californias? (Se trata de una instituci�n de asistencia > gratuita.) Voy a regalarles un dibujo y quisiera poner ese > nombre en el marco. > > Gracias. > > Jorge de Buen U. > bardahl at infosel.net.mx > Tijuana, M�xico > > --------------1AB363E47244C5B4A3C1ED2B > Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > Tijuana, B. C., a 30 de mayo de 1999 >

Estimados amigos: >

¿Cómo dirían en náhuatl Hospital Infantil > de las Californias? (Se trata de una institución de asistencia > gratuita.) Voy a regalarles un dibujo y quisiera poner ese nombre en el > marco. >

Gracias. >

Jorge de Buen U. >
bardahl at infosel.net.mx >
Tijuana, México >
  > > --------------1AB363E47244C5B4A3C1ED2B-- From jorgevilchis at hotmail.com Wed Jun 23 19:19:13 1999 From: jorgevilchis at hotmail.com (Jorge Vilchis) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:19:13 -0600 Subject: Quitenme de la Lista PF Message-ID: He intentado varias formas de que saquen de esta lista , mandando 5 mails de Unsubscribe, pidienolo por este medio etc. Funciono porun tiempo, pero despues de 2 meses ... Vuelven a llegar los e-mails. Puede alguno de ustedes sacarme de esta lista porfavor. Gracias. Jorge Vilchis ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From GRodriguez at FM.UCSF.EDU Wed Jun 23 19:45:12 1999 From: GRodriguez at FM.UCSF.EDU (Rodriguez , Gabriela) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:45:12 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Names Message-ID: Hello, I would like to send out a request. I am looking for a Nahuatl name for my soon to be born third child. Would someone be so kind and send me a list of names with translations into Spanish or English. We would appreciate it very much. Thanks. Have a great day. Gabriela From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Wed Jun 23 19:48:02 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:48:02 -0600 Subject: New book Message-ID: Philip P. Arnold. _ Eating Landscape: Aztec and European Occupation of Tlalocan._ University Press of Colorado, 288 pages, 14 b&w; illustrations, 1999 ISBN: 0-87081-518-0 Hardcover $45.00=20 How do people meaningfully occupy the land? In sixteenth-century Mexico, Aztec and Spanish understandings of land formed the basis of their cultural identities. Their distinctive conceptions of land also established the traumatic character of cultural contact.=20 As Philip P. Arnold maintains in Eating Landscape, central to Aztec meanings of land were ceremonies to Tlaloc, god of rain, fertility, and earth. These ceremonies included child sacrifices for rain and corn, priestly auto-sacrifices at lakes, mountain veneration, and ancestor worship. What unifies these ceremonies, contends Arnold, is the Aztec understanding of food. By feeding deities of the land, human beings could eat. Seeing the valley of Mexico as Tlalocan (the place of Tlaloc) and characterizing it as an "eating landscape" illustrates an Aztec mode of occupying land.=20 At the same time, Arnold demonstrates that the very texts that open a window on Tlaloc ceremonies were created by Spanish missionaries. Particularly important was Sahag=FAn's Florentine Codex, which&--;as was the case with the work of other ethnographers&--;was intended to destroy Aztec ceremonies by exposing them through writing. Using texts to reveal a pre-Columbian past, therefore, is problematic. Arnold therefore suggests an alternative reading of the texts with reference to the material environment of the Valley of Mexico. By connecting ceremonies to specific water courses, mountains, plants, and animals, Arnold reveals a more encompassing picture of Aztec ceremonies, revealing the gap between indigenous and colonial understandings of land. Indigenous strategies of occupying land in Mexico focused on ceremonies which addressed the material conditions of life, while colonial strategies of occupying land centered around books and other written materials such as Biblical and classical texts, ethnographies, and legal documents. These distinctive ways of occupying Tlalocan, concludes Arnold, had dramatic consequences for the formation of the Americas.=20 Filling a gap in the coverage of Aztec cosmology, Eating Landscape brings hermeneutics to archaeology and linguistic analysis in new ways that will be of interest to historians of religion and archaeologists alike.=20 University Press of Colorado=20 >>From the press: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/7500/17134.ctl From n8upb at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 02:12:51 1999 From: n8upb at yahoo.com (Asencion Garcia) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:12:51 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Names Message-ID: --- "Rodriguez , Gabriela" wrote: > Hello, > > I would like to send out a request. I am looking > for a Nahuatl name for my > soon to be born third child. Would someone be so > kind and send me a list of > names with translations into Spanish or English. We > would appreciate it > very much. Thanks. > > Have a great day. > Gabriela > =================================================== > Hola Grabriela ! Well, like evrything else, names, words, languages, change. My name for instance : Asencion CUITLAHUAC ( He who ascends to the gods of confidence ) Garcia. Cuitlahuac, an Aztec king, is unique I guess, my brother's name was CUAHTEMOC, another Aztec king. My brother has passed away, however, he left a son with that name. My son's name is Cuitlahuac. So whether those names are of interest to you or not, you may find more in Aztec folklore and Maya or Inca websites...Take a pick of any... Nowadays, even the Native Americans like myself have names such as Aaron, Mary, James, Michael, Eva, Harald, etc...and have never or have forgotten to name their children the names of this native land...And of course last names like Garcia, Gonzales, Hernandenez, etc..., do not lag far behind.... I am glad that you want to use a Native name for your children, keep thinking that way. I for one will keep the name Cuitlahuac oing as far as it can go. Maybe my son will follow the suit... Have a great time in naming your soon to be born child... Adios A. Cuitlahuac Garcia... _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From a.perri at pronet.it Thu Jun 24 06:13:51 1999 From: a.perri at pronet.it (Antonio Perri) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:13:51 -0600 Subject: R: Nahuatl Names Message-ID: Coul I suggest the native name (in fact, an ethnonimic) of a mexican friend of mine here in Italy? Alfredo (this is is "christian" name) bears as a nahuatl name Tenoch, which means exactly "citizen of Tenochtitlan" and in the way Aztec name themselves. Of course, I think this will o if your little baby will be a male... Sincerely Antonio -----Messaggio originale----- Da: Rodriguez , Gabriela A: Multiple recipients of list Data: mercoled� 23 giugno 1999 22.53 Oggetto: Nahuatl Names >Hello, > >I would like to send out a request. I am looking for a Nahuatl name for my >soon to be born third child. Would someone be so kind and send me a list of >names with translations into Spanish or English. We would appreciate it >very much. Thanks. > >Have a great day. >Gabriela From rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au Thu Jun 24 06:16:45 1999 From: rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au (Accounts Clerk) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:16:45 -0600 Subject: -hua Message-ID: Does the impersonal suffix -hua affix to all verb tense stems? Thanks Russell Coleman From rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au Thu Jun 24 06:19:29 1999 From: rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au (Accounts Clerk) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:19:29 -0600 Subject: Cochi-hua-ya:-n Message-ID: G'day Cochi-hua-ya:-n = place where one customarily sleeps, i.e. a bedroom. Coch(i) is a class B (2) verb. Is the -hua suffix in cochi-hua-ya:-n the impersonal verb suffix? If that is the case, would a Class A (1) verb have the same form?. For example, lets just "randomly" pick a class A verb - say teoti :). Is the formation teoti-hua-ya:-n acceptable? Thanks Russell Coleman From rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au Thu Jun 24 06:45:28 1999 From: rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au (Accounts Clerk) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:45:28 -0600 Subject: Tenoch Message-ID: Wouldn't "citizen of Tenochtitlan" be rendered something like Tenochcatl rather than Tenoch? Tenoch is the stem of the compound noun tenoch-tli which means hard fruit of the prickly pear cactus. Literally, tenoch would mean "hard nopal fruit" and tenochca-tl would be the inhabitant of "the hard nopal fruit". Tenoch-tli = te-tl (rock, sense of hardness); noch-tli (fruit of the nohpal-li); Ca-tl= the gentile noun indicating dweller, inhabitant. From henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de Thu Jun 24 07:30:55 1999 From: henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 01:30:55 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Names Message-ID: > Well, like evrything else, names, words, languages, > change. > > My name for instance : Asencion CUITLAHUAC ( He who > ascends to the gods of confidence ) Garcia. translations seem to change, too > Cuitlahuac, an Aztec king, is unique I guess, my > brother's name was CUAHTEMOC, another Aztec king. My > brother has passed away, however, he left a son with > that name. My son's name is Cuitlahuac. if anybody cares about this: an appropriate way to name a *child* in nahuatl speaking world would be to name it after the designation of the day it was born on (20 names available) plus a nickname maybe I have run across so many Cuauhtemocs lately... Henry From jorgepl at infosel.net.mx Thu Jun 24 14:11:49 1999 From: jorgepl at infosel.net.mx (Jorge Perez de Lara (by way of "John F. Schwaller" )) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:11:49 -0600 Subject: Az: Question regarding Quetzalcoatl, Tezcatlipoca... Message-ID: ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Listeros, Mulling over god triads in ancient Mesoamerica while visiting a temple supposedly dedicated to Tezcatlipoca at Teopanzolco (in Cuernavaca), I came upon a plaque by the temple, listing Quetzalcoatl as a sibling of Tezcatlipoca and as one of a triad of gods (the name of the third deity escapes me right now) who were born to the creator deity (or deities?) according to Mexica thought. As I am working on something which could be related to this triad of gods, I would like to toss two questions at listeros: 1. Who is/are the creator deities (i.e., the begetters of Quetzalcoatl, Tezcatlipoca and the third god, whose name keeps slipping my mind)?; and, crucially for my work, 2. Is there a sequence (and dates in the Tonalli) for the birth of this triad of deities? Jorge Perez de Lara Mexico jorgepl at infosel.net.mx From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Thu Jun 24 14:36:09 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:36:09 -0600 Subject: R: Nahuatl Names Message-ID: Bob McCaa of the University of Minnesota has done an analysis of Nahuatl names found in an early, ca. 1540, census from the Cuernavaca Valley. Here are the Top Ten Nahuatl names: Male: (sample is 1300, frequency shown beside name) Yaotl 74 Matlalihuitl 66 Nochhuetl 59 Coatl 48 Tototl 19 Quauhtli 18 Tochtli 17 Zolin 16 Matlal 12 Xochitl 12 Female: (Sample is 1205, frequency shown beside each name) Teyacapan 313 Tlaco 182 Teicuh 182 Necahual 151 Xoco 53 Centehua 42 Xocoyotl 38 Tlacoehua 22 Tepin 15 Cihuaton 15 Please note the extremely limited number of female names. While among the males there were 427 unique names, among the females there were only 57. As you can also see, nearly all the female names refer to birth order. You might also look at the list in Sahagun's Primeros memorialies, recently published by Oklahoma. In Chapter 4, paragraph 3 Sahagun lists names for boys and girls. Boys: Yaolt, Tochtli, Mazatl, Coatl, Xochitl, Cuetzpalli, Cipctli, Ollin, Xochipepe, Cuixtli, etc. Girls: Teyacapan, Teuicui, Xoco, Papan, Tlacotl, Xiloxoch, Miyaoaxochitl, Eloxochitl, Mizquixaual, Xochitl, etc. J. F. Schwaller, List Owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Thu Jun 24 17:41:44 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:41:44 -0600 Subject: Meanings of Names Message-ID: In the list I sent out, I have some questions about what the names mean. Specifically I am a bit stumped on boys names: Matlalihuitl Nochhuetl Matlal (net?) Female names: Tlaco (half?) Necahual Tlacoehua Any ideas? J. F. Schwaller, List owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Jun 24 17:55:45 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:55:45 -0600 Subject: Meanings of Names Message-ID: Fritz, Just a quickie idea -- maybe more later. Matlalihuitl is probably matlal(in)-ihhuitl. blue-green - feather Joe On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, John F. Schwaller wrote: > In the list I sent out, I have some questions about what the names mean. > Specifically I am a bit stumped on boys names: > Matlalihuitl From tezozomoc at std.teradyne.com Thu Jun 24 18:20:52 1999 From: tezozomoc at std.teradyne.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:20:52 -0600 Subject: Meanings of Names Message-ID: John, I offer this analysis for Matlal-ihuitl As Joe has suggested, Dark-green + feather -> green feather. For tlacoehua it is much harder. Here are some permutations. tlaco:tl -> stick ehuatl -> shirt, skin, peeling, bark One possible is piel de vara, camisa de vara, etc. Another is Tlacoh -> slave Piel de esclava. Still another is Tlahco and I am leaning more towards this, third daughter. There was the common practice of naming kids by the order of their birth. I have seen nochehuatl as prickly pear peeling, but I did not see anything for nochhuetl?? Necahual is derived from cahua -> to remain. I have seen neca:hualo which means people remain. Oh, well..... Tezozomoc "John F. Schwaller" wrote: > In the list I sent out, I have some questions about what the names mean. > Specifically I am a bit stumped on boys names: > Matlalihuitl > Nochhuetl > Matlal (net?) > > Female names: > Tlaco (half?) > Necahual > Tlacoehua > > Any ideas? > > J. F. Schwaller, List owner > > John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu > Associate Provost 406-243-4722 > The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 > http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Thu Jun 24 19:51:15 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:51:15 -0600 Subject: Names, names, names Message-ID: OK folks, what about? Necahual - Last one (Molina has necaualiztli - despedida... acto de cesar de hacer alguna obra) Tlaco seems much more like middle than second, except for second of three, where it would be middle. And if Centehua is "First one" wouldn't Tlacoehua be "middle one"? John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au Fri Jun 25 01:34:16 1999 From: rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au (Accounts Clerk) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:34:16 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Names Message-ID: >> >> My name for instance : Asencion CUITLAHUAC ( He who >> ascends to the gods of confidence ) Garcia. > >translations seem to change, too > I agree. Translations do seem to change. I assume asencion is meant to be ascension but Cuitlahuac? I must admit that I thought it meant something entirely different. Something that you would not want to use as a name, these days. But my ideas of the translation are probably wrong. Can someone advise if I am on the right track with the translation of Cuitlahuac: As a place name - Location of dried excrement owners, i.e. (possibly) a fertiliser factory. stems - cuitla-tl = excrement; -huah = possessor suffix; -co = specific location suffix As a personal name - Dried excrement stems - cuitla-tl = excrement; hua:c = it has been dried. From henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de Fri Jun 25 07:32:31 1999 From: henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 01:32:31 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Names Message-ID: > Can someone advise if I am on the right track with the translation of > Cuitlahuac: > > As a place name - Location of dried excrement owners, i.e. (possibly) a > fertiliser factory. > > stems - cuitla-tl = excrement; -huah = possessor suffix; -co = specific > location suffix Why "dried"? It's simply a place of excrement or dung owners. The residents of Cuitlahuac, DF, will probabably not be very happy to learn the literal meaning of that place name. I take it to refer to wealth, though. As in _teocuitlatl_ "gold" (excrement of gods) or _iztaccuitlaltl_ (white excrement) "silver". Cuitlatl also has a broader semantic range than just "excrement", it can also be "residue", "excrescence" and "excretion". So, maybe Cuitlahuac is a place where people had much teocuitlatl. Another interpretation would that of "excrescence" be: a place were people suffered from abscesses and the like. Probably somebody more knowledgeable in DF local history can clear this up. > As a personal name - Dried excrement > > stems - cuitla-tl = excrement; hua:c = it has been dried. As a personal name, somethig like this would be the only interpretation, I'm afraid. *_ocuitl(a)hua:c_ "its has dried like (?) excrement"; *_ocuitl(a)hua:quiti_ "he has dried dung" Henry From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Jun 25 10:58:17 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 04:58:17 -0600 Subject: Az: Question regarding Quetzalcoatl, Tezcatlipoca... Message-ID: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Listeros, > > Mulling over god triads in ancient Mesoamerica while visiting a >temple supposedly dedicated to Tezcatlipoca at Teopanzolco (in >Cuernavaca), > >Jorge Perez de Lara >Mexico > >jorgepl at infosel.net.mx Dear Jorge, I can't answer your specific questions, but I'd like to point out that a triad of anything would be decidedly un-Mesoamerican. The Aztec world, sharing in the Mesoamerican cosmovision, was a cognitive world pervaded by 2s (the duality expressed by pairs uch as Ometeotl/Omecihuatl) and 4s (the quadripartite nature of just about everything). Fran From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Jun 25 11:12:48 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 05:12:48 -0600 Subject: Meanings of Names Message-ID: >In the list I sent out, I have some questions about what the names mean. >Specifically I am a bit stumped on boys names: >Any ideas? >Matlalihuitl 'Dark-Green Feather' >Nochhuetl Don't know. But the similar form Nochehuatl means 'consistent through and through' which strikes me as a quality the Nahua would have admired. >Matlal 'Dark Green' >Female names: >Tlaco (half?) 'In-the-Middle' (birth order) >Necahual 'Survivor, Left-Behind' (Maybe this means 'Orphan') >Tlacoehua 'Emerged-in-the-Middle' (i.e., middle in birth order) Listeros, if you are use the list in the original message, please note the following typos: "Yaolt" should read Yaotl ('Enemy') "Cipctli" should read Cipactli ('Caiman, Alligator') Fran From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Jun 25 11:37:47 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 05:37:47 -0600 Subject: MacArthur awards Message-ID: >>From the Bulletin of the Society for the Study of the Indigenous Languages of the Americas: The John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, in Chicago, has named 32 new recipients of MacArthur Fellowships, which are widely known by their unofficial name as "genius grants." The fellows will receive full salary awards for 5 years in amounts determined by their age. We are proud to say that among the 32 recipients of this year's awards are two members of SSILA: * Denny Moore (Coordinator of the Linguistics Division, Museu Paraense Emilio Goeldi, Belem-Para, Brazil). Moore, an anthropological linguist, is making important contributions to preserving the language and culture of endangered indigenous groups in Brazil. With strategies that engage both native speakers and the larger public, he leads the effort to document and preserve well over a hundred endangered languages in Brazil. * Ofelia Zepeda (Professor of Linguistics, Univ. of Arizona, Tucson, AZ). Zepeda is a linguist, poet, editor, and community leader devoted to maintaining and preserving Native American languages and to revitalizing tribal communities and cultures. Her singular work in advancing the field of Native language scholarship positions Zepeda as a unique force on behalf of the continued life of endangered languages. Moore (who is 54) will receive $365,000 over the next 5 years, Zepeda (who is 45) will receive $320,000. Our congratulations to them both! ___________________________________________________________________________ Ofelia is a speaker of Tohono O'odham (Papago). This is a wonderful honor for her, for her people, and for Uto-Aztecanists. Fran From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Fri Jun 25 16:17:26 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:17:26 -0600 Subject: Names web page Message-ID: Dear Nahuatl'ers I have compiled the name information into a web page. I do not yet have links to it from the main Nahuatl web page, but the URL is as follows: http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/names.html Thanks to all of you who helped with translating the names. Fritz John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From robc at csufresno.edu Sat Jun 26 20:26:26 1999 From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert G. Comegys) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 14:26:26 -0600 Subject: Mtbear, Annie, etc Message-ID: Jim, I can't quite figure out how to cut and paste the address book entries here onto this message. So I'll do it backwards, I'll send your address to selected friends and family and copy you instead. John James Comegys wrote: > Dear John or Dad, > > Now that I am on line at home, you may send me messages here. Also, i > would like to alert Mike Pannel to this news. Could you send me his > address? Thank you. > > Jim From arturol at ibt.unam.mx Sun Jun 27 04:00:54 1999 From: arturol at ibt.unam.mx (Arturo Lievano) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 22:00:54 -0600 Subject: delete Message-ID: Please delete me fron the list. Arturo From henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de Mon Jun 28 08:23:54 1999 From: henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 02:23:54 -0600 Subject: Mtbear, Annie, etc Message-ID: Hi, Robert, this came through Nahuat-L, so possibly it didn't reach the intended addressee. Henry "Robert G. Comegys" schrieb: > > Jim, I can't quite figure out how to cut and paste the address book > entries here onto this message. So I'll do it backwards, I'll send your > address to selected friends and family and copy you instead. John > > James Comegys wrote: > > > Dear John or Dad, > > > > Now that I am on line at home, you may send me messages here. Also, i > > would like to alert Mike Pannel to this news. Could you send me his > > address? Thank you. > > > > Jim From OFoley9889 at aol.com Mon Jun 28 08:40:31 1999 From: OFoley9889 at aol.com (OFoley9889 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 02:40:31 -0600 Subject: Mtbear, Annie, etc Message-ID: Hi, yeah, I don't think you reached the intended recipient, but I would like to talk to you about immersion school programs and other indigenous peoples issues. I live in Hawai'i and we will be doing numerous activities aimed at increasing cultural exchange. Aloha, Ohana From henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de Mon Jun 28 09:26:23 1999 From: henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 03:26:23 -0600 Subject: Mtbear, Annie, etc Message-ID: Oops, looks like I did the same stupid thing. Xnechtlapohpolwikan! que me perdonen ... Henry > > Hi, Robert, > > this came through Nahuat-L, so possibly it didn't reach the intended > addressee. > > Henry > From OFoley9889 at aol.com Mon Jun 28 10:01:19 1999 From: OFoley9889 at aol.com (OFoley9889 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:01:19 -0600 Subject: Mtbear, Annie, etc Message-ID: hola, como estas? I am wondering, would you or someone you know be interested in coming to Hawai'i to speak on issues of human rights for indigenous peoples? mahalo nui loa thank you very much, for any ideas you might have. 'Ohana Foley Hablas tu ingles y viajas a Maui para el discusion de la puebla derechos de humanos? From rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au Mon Jun 28 11:51:04 1999 From: rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au (Russell Coleman) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 05:51:04 -0600 Subject: Teoti:-hua-0-ca:tl Message-ID: I have recently learnt that teoti:hua can take tense suffixes. So, can I assume that the preterite theme would be teoti:-hua-0-c? And then, can I assume that adding the noun stem ca:(tl) would create a preterite agentive noun which would look like: teoti:-hua-0-ca:tl? Are my assumptions correct? I am not sure what influence the impersonal verb suffix -hua has upon these assumptions, so I would appreciate any feedback and advice from members of the list. I have based these assumptions on my understaning of michnamacaca:n. That is: mich-namaca-0-ca:-n. This is made up of the preterite theme michnamaca-c plus ca:tl (which creates the preterite agentive noun) plus -n. From observation, I am also making the assumption that when ca:tl attaches to the preterite theme the single number suffix -c is dropped or just not included in this formula. Thanks in advance for any help. Russell Coleman From robc at csufresno.edu Mon Jun 28 16:03:42 1999 From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert G. Comegys) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 10:03:42 -0600 Subject: Mtbear, Annie, etc Message-ID: Dear Henry, Oops! Sorry. Thank you for catching these. I gther you are the Web mater, or look after this site. These really should not go to to the nahuatleros. I apparently got the nahuatl list in with the other addressses by misake. Again, thanks. Robert From rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au Tue Jun 29 06:11:38 1999 From: rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au (Accounts Clerk) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 00:11:38 -0600 Subject: Teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n Message-ID: I did not get any corrections on my last post regarding teoti:-hua-0-ca:tl. So, it would seem that I am on the right track. Now, take the place name Teotihuacan. Would I be correct in assuming that there is a preterite agentive noun form here. So Teotihuacan would look like Teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n : i.e. Teoti:-hua-0-ca: = (it/one was/became a god) = the preterite agentive form made up of (teoti = to be/become a god; -hua = impersonal verb suffix; 0 = zero tense suffix; ca:tl = noun that creates the preterite agentive noun and connects to the locative suffix); plus -n = locative suffix. These are my assumptions and because I have not been corrected in my previous posts I can only assume that I am possibly on the right track in my understanding of the place name Teotihuacan. However, having said that, I know there is one person on the list that will say this is incorrect, that there is a verb here and not a "noun-ified" verb. I now depend upon as much feed back as possible to help me gain a better understanding of the mechanics behind this name Teotihuacan. Is it a verb or is it a preterite agentive noun? And Why? Thanks in advance for your feedback. Russell Coleman P.S. How does one render in English the preterite form teoti:-hua-0-c? Is it "one/it was/became a god? From a.perri at pronet.it Tue Jun 29 12:39:23 1999 From: a.perri at pronet.it (Antonio Perri) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 06:39:23 -0600 Subject: R: Teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n Message-ID: Dear Russell, I apologize for the lateness in the answer. I guess the one you allued it's me, since I wrote some time ago to you in the list about the reaing of "Teotihuacan". As you probably remember, I quoted not my own reading of this locative, but the one given by Launey in his grammar. I wrote as follows: (indeed, the case of Teo-ti-hua-can is analyzed as a verbal one by Launey: "The place where gods make themselves (from the impersonal of teoti, "to become a god")". I quote from Launey grammar: "usually, -can is suffixed to the participial suffix, then to the "ajectives" in -c -qui, possessive nouns in -hua, -e, -yo an agent nouns derived from perfect". Notice, however, that many of these elements (e.g. so-called ajectives) are in fact derived from verbs, an that the same -can is connected to transitive verbs: e.g. from com(itl)-chihua, "to make pottery", we have "con-chiuh-can", "place where they make pottery". In this case, no doubt that "ciuh-" is the root of a verb "to make" with incorporate object. Notice, however, that your basic argument could be splitte in two relevant parts, namely: i) does the suffix *can* allows for ana analysis such as it is formed from *ca(tl)* (a nominal suffix) plus a "generic locative" *n*? I have no definite answer to you on this matter (incidentally, I wonder if someone "wiser" in the list could be of some help in elucidating this point also to me); ii) does *teoti-hua-(c-atl)* is a nounified verb, or it is just a verb? The answer to this question is quite simple an quite difficult at the same time: indeed, one could say "it is both a name and a verb", provided that the "indoeuropean" binary contrast between names and verbs no longer holds for an omnipredicative lunguage such as nahuatl. In other words, you could either consider *teotihua(c-atl)* as a name (but notice that you always need to translate it as a sort of predicative clause, "one/it was/became a god") or, in the form *teotihua(c)* as a verb "(the gods) make (made) temselves", i.e. "they became god". It doesn't really matter which is your option, since the real meaning of the nahuatl form is someting in-between the two, say, a predicative form one could translate into English (or Italian, of course) nounifying it (always in a predicative form) or as a common verbal utterance. Sincerely Antonio -----Messaggio originale----- Da: Accounts Clerk A: Multiple recipients of list Data: marted� 29 giugno 1999 9.19 Oggetto: Teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n >I did not get any corrections on my last post regarding teoti:-hua-0-ca:tl. >So, it would seem that I am on the right track. > >Now, take the place name Teotihuacan. Would I be correct in assuming that >there is a preterite agentive noun form here. > >So Teotihuacan would look like Teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n : > >i.e. Teoti:-hua-0-ca: = (it/one was/became a god) = the preterite agentive >form made up of (teoti = to be/become a god; -hua = impersonal verb suffix; >0 = zero tense suffix; ca:tl = noun that creates the preterite agentive noun >and connects to the locative suffix); plus -n = locative suffix. > >These are my assumptions and because I have not been corrected in my >previous posts I can only assume that I am possibly on the right track in my >understanding of the place name Teotihuacan. However, having said that, I >know there is one person on the list that will say this is incorrect, that >there is a verb here and not a "noun-ified" verb. I now depend upon as much >feed back as possible to help me gain a better understanding of the >mechanics behind this name Teotihuacan. > >Is it a verb or is it a preterite agentive noun? And Why? > >Thanks in advance for your feedback. > >Russell Coleman > >P.S. How does one render in English the preterite form teoti:-hua-0-c? Is >it "one/it was/became a god? > > From lidia1 at pue1.telmex.net.mx Tue Jun 29 19:04:08 1999 From: lidia1 at pue1.telmex.net.mx (Lidia Gomez) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:04:08 -0600 Subject: Meanings of Names Message-ID: Listeros: We discussed Frances Kartunen's traslation for nahuatl names at Luis Reyes' Seminar and came up with some other translation: > > >>Matlalihuitl >'Dark-Green Feather' - It could be also "Purple Feather" (pluma morada). El nombre aparece tambien en 'La historia de Tlaxcala' de Munnoz Camargo y en el documento No. 254 de la Biblioteca Nacional de Paris en forma reverecial: Matlalihuitzin. >>Nochhuetl >Don't know. But the similar form Nochehuatl means 'consistent through and >through' which strikes me as a quality the Nahua would have admired. - Tuna, the one who posses tunas (poseedor de tunas). El glifo de este nombre es una tuna. >>Matlal >'Dark Green' > - Net (red) or Crib (cuna). Lidia ___________________________________ Lidia Gomez, Edmundo Gutierrez, Bilha, Adrian 3 Oriente 850-E, C. P. 72810 San Andres Cholula, Puebla MEXICO Tel: 52 (22) 473749 e-mail: lidia1 at pue1.telmex.net.mx From henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de Wed Jun 30 09:16:13 1999 From: henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 03:16:13 -0600 Subject: Meanings of Names Message-ID: Lidia Gomez schrieb: > > Listeros: > > We discussed Frances Kartunen's traslation for nahuatl names at Luis Reyes' > Seminar and came up with some other translation: > > >>Nochhuetl > >Don't know. But the similar form Nochehuatl means 'consistent through and > >through' which strikes me as a quality the Nahua would have admired. > > - Tuna, the one who posses tunas (poseedor de tunas). El glifo de este > nombre es una tuna. wouldn't this be nochhuah (nochwa')? > >>Matlal > >'Dark Green' > > > - Net (red) or Crib (cuna). why should -tl become -l? net ist ma:tlatl From rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au Wed Jun 30 10:34:17 1999 From: rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au (Accounts Clerk) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 04:34:17 -0600 Subject: R: Teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n Message-ID: >Notice, however, that your basic argument could be splitte in two relevant >parts, namely: I am not actually arguing that teoti:-hua-0-ca:n is the correct translation. I am merely trying to understand the mechanics behind it. It is one of the two argued translations that I have seen on this list. To me, teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n can only be possible if there is a preterite agentive noun form present i.e. teoti:-hua-0-ca:. If it doesn't exist here and there is only a verb form here then the suffix ca:-n is out of place. From what I understand, ca:-n can only affix to a noun or a preterite theme (thus making a preterite agentive noun, courtesy of ca:tl), NOT a verb. The other translation teo-ti-huah-can (ie God Possessor Place) makes sense except that the ligature "ti" is out of place. The suffix ca:-n belongs here because it attaches to a noun. The etymology of this second translation is easier to determine than that of teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n. Does teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n contain a preterite agentive noun or not? Is it just a verb? A simple yes or no doesn't seem forthcoming. What is it that makes this hard to determine if there is a noun-ified verb or not? Is it the -hua suffix? To me that seems to be the main difference from other words like michnamaca-0-ca:-n. My aim is not to determine which is the correct translation (I'll leave that to the experts) but just to understand the mechanics behind the two translations. >It doesn't really matter which is your option, since >the real meaning of the nahuatl form is someting in-between the two, say, a I'm not sure about this because, from what I understand, the locative suffix ca:-n must attach to a noun or preterite agentive noun, not to a verb. Thanks in advance for your feedback. Russell Coleman From SANCHEM2 at sce.com Wed Jun 30 13:39:48 1999 From: SANCHEM2 at sce.com (Sanchez, Michael) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:39:48 -0600 Subject: Class schedule Message-ID: Was hoping you would have information of a course being offered in Southern California. Mike Sanchez SCE Alhambra Bldg. "C" Pax 46226 (626) 308-6226 From henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de Wed Jun 30 14:46:38 1999 From: henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:46:38 -0600 Subject: R: Teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n Message-ID: > >Notice, however, that your basic argument could be splitte in two relevant > >parts, namely: > > I am not actually arguing that teoti:-hua-0-ca:n is the correct translation. > I am merely trying to understand the mechanics behind it. Place name translations are often tentative. I don't know (probably somebody does) for how long the name Teotihuacan had been in use before the "conquest". It could reflect (1) an older layer of language history, (2) a regional variant that was replaced later or (3) a word in which certain affixes disappeared by assimilation [it can well be a shortened form of a once longer name]. Try and translate English placenames... Why should there be consistency in this case? Henry From fabian at nuclecu.unam.mx Wed Jun 30 18:43:40 1999 From: fabian at nuclecu.unam.mx (Fabian E. Pena Arellano) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:43:40 -0600 Subject: New Testament in Classical Nahuatl. Message-ID: Some days ago I read on the web that in 1833 someone translated Bible's New Testament into classical nahuatl. I wrote the people in charge of those pages (one of Nance's profiles) but don't know about it. Does anyone of you know if it is still on print? Thank you. Fabian Pena From robc at csufresno.edu Tue Jun 1 14:35:09 1999 From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert G. Comegys) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 08:35:09 -0600 Subject: Hospital infantil Message-ID: This is the original question to the Hospital series. Some of the answers might be useful. Jorge de Buen wrote: > --------------1AB363E47244C5B4A3C1ED2B > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Tijuana, B. C., a 30 de mayo de 1999 > > Estimados amigos: > > ?C?mo dir?an en n?huatl Hospital Infantil de las > Californias? (Se trata de una instituci?n de asistencia > gratuita.) Voy a regalarles un dibujo y quisiera poner ese > nombre en el marco. > > Gracias. > > Jorge de Buen U. > bardahl at infosel.net.mx > Tijuana, M?xico > > --------------1AB363E47244C5B4A3C1ED2B > Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > Tijuana, B. C., a 30 de mayo de 1999 >

Estimados amigos: >

¿Cómo dirían en náhuatl Hospital Infantil > de las Californias? (Se trata de una institución de asistencia > gratuita.) Voy a regalarles un dibujo y quisiera poner ese nombre en el > marco. >

Gracias. >

Jorge de Buen U. >
bardahl at infosel.net.mx >
Tijuana, México >
  > > --------------1AB363E47244C5B4A3C1ED2B-- From jorgevilchis at hotmail.com Wed Jun 23 19:19:13 1999 From: jorgevilchis at hotmail.com (Jorge Vilchis) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:19:13 -0600 Subject: Quitenme de la Lista PF Message-ID: He intentado varias formas de que saquen de esta lista , mandando 5 mails de Unsubscribe, pidienolo por este medio etc. Funciono porun tiempo, pero despues de 2 meses ... Vuelven a llegar los e-mails. Puede alguno de ustedes sacarme de esta lista porfavor. Gracias. Jorge Vilchis ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From GRodriguez at FM.UCSF.EDU Wed Jun 23 19:45:12 1999 From: GRodriguez at FM.UCSF.EDU (Rodriguez , Gabriela) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:45:12 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Names Message-ID: Hello, I would like to send out a request. I am looking for a Nahuatl name for my soon to be born third child. Would someone be so kind and send me a list of names with translations into Spanish or English. We would appreciate it very much. Thanks. Have a great day. Gabriela From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Wed Jun 23 19:48:02 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:48:02 -0600 Subject: New book Message-ID: Philip P. Arnold. _ Eating Landscape: Aztec and European Occupation of Tlalocan._ University Press of Colorado, 288 pages, 14 b&w; illustrations, 1999 ISBN: 0-87081-518-0 Hardcover $45.00=20 How do people meaningfully occupy the land? In sixteenth-century Mexico, Aztec and Spanish understandings of land formed the basis of their cultural identities. Their distinctive conceptions of land also established the traumatic character of cultural contact.=20 As Philip P. Arnold maintains in Eating Landscape, central to Aztec meanings of land were ceremonies to Tlaloc, god of rain, fertility, and earth. These ceremonies included child sacrifices for rain and corn, priestly auto-sacrifices at lakes, mountain veneration, and ancestor worship. What unifies these ceremonies, contends Arnold, is the Aztec understanding of food. By feeding deities of the land, human beings could eat. Seeing the valley of Mexico as Tlalocan (the place of Tlaloc) and characterizing it as an "eating landscape" illustrates an Aztec mode of occupying land.=20 At the same time, Arnold demonstrates that the very texts that open a window on Tlaloc ceremonies were created by Spanish missionaries. Particularly important was Sahag=FAn's Florentine Codex, which&--;as was the case with the work of other ethnographers&--;was intended to destroy Aztec ceremonies by exposing them through writing. Using texts to reveal a pre-Columbian past, therefore, is problematic. Arnold therefore suggests an alternative reading of the texts with reference to the material environment of the Valley of Mexico. By connecting ceremonies to specific water courses, mountains, plants, and animals, Arnold reveals a more encompassing picture of Aztec ceremonies, revealing the gap between indigenous and colonial understandings of land. Indigenous strategies of occupying land in Mexico focused on ceremonies which addressed the material conditions of life, while colonial strategies of occupying land centered around books and other written materials such as Biblical and classical texts, ethnographies, and legal documents. These distinctive ways of occupying Tlalocan, concludes Arnold, had dramatic consequences for the formation of the Americas.=20 Filling a gap in the coverage of Aztec cosmology, Eating Landscape brings hermeneutics to archaeology and linguistic analysis in new ways that will be of interest to historians of religion and archaeologists alike.=20 University Press of Colorado=20 >>From the press: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/7500/17134.ctl From n8upb at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 02:12:51 1999 From: n8upb at yahoo.com (Asencion Garcia) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:12:51 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Names Message-ID: --- "Rodriguez , Gabriela" wrote: > Hello, > > I would like to send out a request. I am looking > for a Nahuatl name for my > soon to be born third child. Would someone be so > kind and send me a list of > names with translations into Spanish or English. We > would appreciate it > very much. Thanks. > > Have a great day. > Gabriela > =================================================== > Hola Grabriela ! Well, like evrything else, names, words, languages, change. My name for instance : Asencion CUITLAHUAC ( He who ascends to the gods of confidence ) Garcia. Cuitlahuac, an Aztec king, is unique I guess, my brother's name was CUAHTEMOC, another Aztec king. My brother has passed away, however, he left a son with that name. My son's name is Cuitlahuac. So whether those names are of interest to you or not, you may find more in Aztec folklore and Maya or Inca websites...Take a pick of any... Nowadays, even the Native Americans like myself have names such as Aaron, Mary, James, Michael, Eva, Harald, etc...and have never or have forgotten to name their children the names of this native land...And of course last names like Garcia, Gonzales, Hernandenez, etc..., do not lag far behind.... I am glad that you want to use a Native name for your children, keep thinking that way. I for one will keep the name Cuitlahuac oing as far as it can go. Maybe my son will follow the suit... Have a great time in naming your soon to be born child... Adios A. Cuitlahuac Garcia... _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From a.perri at pronet.it Thu Jun 24 06:13:51 1999 From: a.perri at pronet.it (Antonio Perri) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:13:51 -0600 Subject: R: Nahuatl Names Message-ID: Coul I suggest the native name (in fact, an ethnonimic) of a mexican friend of mine here in Italy? Alfredo (this is is "christian" name) bears as a nahuatl name Tenoch, which means exactly "citizen of Tenochtitlan" and in the way Aztec name themselves. Of course, I think this will o if your little baby will be a male... Sincerely Antonio -----Messaggio originale----- Da: Rodriguez , Gabriela A: Multiple recipients of list Data: mercoled? 23 giugno 1999 22.53 Oggetto: Nahuatl Names >Hello, > >I would like to send out a request. I am looking for a Nahuatl name for my >soon to be born third child. Would someone be so kind and send me a list of >names with translations into Spanish or English. We would appreciate it >very much. Thanks. > >Have a great day. >Gabriela From rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au Thu Jun 24 06:16:45 1999 From: rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au (Accounts Clerk) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:16:45 -0600 Subject: -hua Message-ID: Does the impersonal suffix -hua affix to all verb tense stems? Thanks Russell Coleman From rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au Thu Jun 24 06:19:29 1999 From: rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au (Accounts Clerk) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:19:29 -0600 Subject: Cochi-hua-ya:-n Message-ID: G'day Cochi-hua-ya:-n = place where one customarily sleeps, i.e. a bedroom. Coch(i) is a class B (2) verb. Is the -hua suffix in cochi-hua-ya:-n the impersonal verb suffix? If that is the case, would a Class A (1) verb have the same form?. For example, lets just "randomly" pick a class A verb - say teoti :). Is the formation teoti-hua-ya:-n acceptable? Thanks Russell Coleman From rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au Thu Jun 24 06:45:28 1999 From: rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au (Accounts Clerk) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:45:28 -0600 Subject: Tenoch Message-ID: Wouldn't "citizen of Tenochtitlan" be rendered something like Tenochcatl rather than Tenoch? Tenoch is the stem of the compound noun tenoch-tli which means hard fruit of the prickly pear cactus. Literally, tenoch would mean "hard nopal fruit" and tenochca-tl would be the inhabitant of "the hard nopal fruit". Tenoch-tli = te-tl (rock, sense of hardness); noch-tli (fruit of the nohpal-li); Ca-tl= the gentile noun indicating dweller, inhabitant. From henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de Thu Jun 24 07:30:55 1999 From: henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 01:30:55 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Names Message-ID: > Well, like evrything else, names, words, languages, > change. > > My name for instance : Asencion CUITLAHUAC ( He who > ascends to the gods of confidence ) Garcia. translations seem to change, too > Cuitlahuac, an Aztec king, is unique I guess, my > brother's name was CUAHTEMOC, another Aztec king. My > brother has passed away, however, he left a son with > that name. My son's name is Cuitlahuac. if anybody cares about this: an appropriate way to name a *child* in nahuatl speaking world would be to name it after the designation of the day it was born on (20 names available) plus a nickname maybe I have run across so many Cuauhtemocs lately... Henry From jorgepl at infosel.net.mx Thu Jun 24 14:11:49 1999 From: jorgepl at infosel.net.mx (Jorge Perez de Lara (by way of "John F. Schwaller" )) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:11:49 -0600 Subject: Az: Question regarding Quetzalcoatl, Tezcatlipoca... Message-ID: ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Listeros, Mulling over god triads in ancient Mesoamerica while visiting a temple supposedly dedicated to Tezcatlipoca at Teopanzolco (in Cuernavaca), I came upon a plaque by the temple, listing Quetzalcoatl as a sibling of Tezcatlipoca and as one of a triad of gods (the name of the third deity escapes me right now) who were born to the creator deity (or deities?) according to Mexica thought. As I am working on something which could be related to this triad of gods, I would like to toss two questions at listeros: 1. Who is/are the creator deities (i.e., the begetters of Quetzalcoatl, Tezcatlipoca and the third god, whose name keeps slipping my mind)?; and, crucially for my work, 2. Is there a sequence (and dates in the Tonalli) for the birth of this triad of deities? Jorge Perez de Lara Mexico jorgepl at infosel.net.mx From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Thu Jun 24 14:36:09 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:36:09 -0600 Subject: R: Nahuatl Names Message-ID: Bob McCaa of the University of Minnesota has done an analysis of Nahuatl names found in an early, ca. 1540, census from the Cuernavaca Valley. Here are the Top Ten Nahuatl names: Male: (sample is 1300, frequency shown beside name) Yaotl 74 Matlalihuitl 66 Nochhuetl 59 Coatl 48 Tototl 19 Quauhtli 18 Tochtli 17 Zolin 16 Matlal 12 Xochitl 12 Female: (Sample is 1205, frequency shown beside each name) Teyacapan 313 Tlaco 182 Teicuh 182 Necahual 151 Xoco 53 Centehua 42 Xocoyotl 38 Tlacoehua 22 Tepin 15 Cihuaton 15 Please note the extremely limited number of female names. While among the males there were 427 unique names, among the females there were only 57. As you can also see, nearly all the female names refer to birth order. You might also look at the list in Sahagun's Primeros memorialies, recently published by Oklahoma. In Chapter 4, paragraph 3 Sahagun lists names for boys and girls. Boys: Yaolt, Tochtli, Mazatl, Coatl, Xochitl, Cuetzpalli, Cipctli, Ollin, Xochipepe, Cuixtli, etc. Girls: Teyacapan, Teuicui, Xoco, Papan, Tlacotl, Xiloxoch, Miyaoaxochitl, Eloxochitl, Mizquixaual, Xochitl, etc. J. F. Schwaller, List Owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Thu Jun 24 17:41:44 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:41:44 -0600 Subject: Meanings of Names Message-ID: In the list I sent out, I have some questions about what the names mean. Specifically I am a bit stumped on boys names: Matlalihuitl Nochhuetl Matlal (net?) Female names: Tlaco (half?) Necahual Tlacoehua Any ideas? J. F. Schwaller, List owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Jun 24 17:55:45 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:55:45 -0600 Subject: Meanings of Names Message-ID: Fritz, Just a quickie idea -- maybe more later. Matlalihuitl is probably matlal(in)-ihhuitl. blue-green - feather Joe On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, John F. Schwaller wrote: > In the list I sent out, I have some questions about what the names mean. > Specifically I am a bit stumped on boys names: > Matlalihuitl From tezozomoc at std.teradyne.com Thu Jun 24 18:20:52 1999 From: tezozomoc at std.teradyne.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:20:52 -0600 Subject: Meanings of Names Message-ID: John, I offer this analysis for Matlal-ihuitl As Joe has suggested, Dark-green + feather -> green feather. For tlacoehua it is much harder. Here are some permutations. tlaco:tl -> stick ehuatl -> shirt, skin, peeling, bark One possible is piel de vara, camisa de vara, etc. Another is Tlacoh -> slave Piel de esclava. Still another is Tlahco and I am leaning more towards this, third daughter. There was the common practice of naming kids by the order of their birth. I have seen nochehuatl as prickly pear peeling, but I did not see anything for nochhuetl?? Necahual is derived from cahua -> to remain. I have seen neca:hualo which means people remain. Oh, well..... Tezozomoc "John F. Schwaller" wrote: > In the list I sent out, I have some questions about what the names mean. > Specifically I am a bit stumped on boys names: > Matlalihuitl > Nochhuetl > Matlal (net?) > > Female names: > Tlaco (half?) > Necahual > Tlacoehua > > Any ideas? > > J. F. Schwaller, List owner > > John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu > Associate Provost 406-243-4722 > The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 > http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Thu Jun 24 19:51:15 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:51:15 -0600 Subject: Names, names, names Message-ID: OK folks, what about? Necahual - Last one (Molina has necaualiztli - despedida... acto de cesar de hacer alguna obra) Tlaco seems much more like middle than second, except for second of three, where it would be middle. And if Centehua is "First one" wouldn't Tlacoehua be "middle one"? John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au Fri Jun 25 01:34:16 1999 From: rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au (Accounts Clerk) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:34:16 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Names Message-ID: >> >> My name for instance : Asencion CUITLAHUAC ( He who >> ascends to the gods of confidence ) Garcia. > >translations seem to change, too > I agree. Translations do seem to change. I assume asencion is meant to be ascension but Cuitlahuac? I must admit that I thought it meant something entirely different. Something that you would not want to use as a name, these days. But my ideas of the translation are probably wrong. Can someone advise if I am on the right track with the translation of Cuitlahuac: As a place name - Location of dried excrement owners, i.e. (possibly) a fertiliser factory. stems - cuitla-tl = excrement; -huah = possessor suffix; -co = specific location suffix As a personal name - Dried excrement stems - cuitla-tl = excrement; hua:c = it has been dried. From henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de Fri Jun 25 07:32:31 1999 From: henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 01:32:31 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Names Message-ID: > Can someone advise if I am on the right track with the translation of > Cuitlahuac: > > As a place name - Location of dried excrement owners, i.e. (possibly) a > fertiliser factory. > > stems - cuitla-tl = excrement; -huah = possessor suffix; -co = specific > location suffix Why "dried"? It's simply a place of excrement or dung owners. The residents of Cuitlahuac, DF, will probabably not be very happy to learn the literal meaning of that place name. I take it to refer to wealth, though. As in _teocuitlatl_ "gold" (excrement of gods) or _iztaccuitlaltl_ (white excrement) "silver". Cuitlatl also has a broader semantic range than just "excrement", it can also be "residue", "excrescence" and "excretion". So, maybe Cuitlahuac is a place where people had much teocuitlatl. Another interpretation would that of "excrescence" be: a place were people suffered from abscesses and the like. Probably somebody more knowledgeable in DF local history can clear this up. > As a personal name - Dried excrement > > stems - cuitla-tl = excrement; hua:c = it has been dried. As a personal name, somethig like this would be the only interpretation, I'm afraid. *_ocuitl(a)hua:c_ "its has dried like (?) excrement"; *_ocuitl(a)hua:quiti_ "he has dried dung" Henry From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Jun 25 10:58:17 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 04:58:17 -0600 Subject: Az: Question regarding Quetzalcoatl, Tezcatlipoca... Message-ID: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Listeros, > > Mulling over god triads in ancient Mesoamerica while visiting a >temple supposedly dedicated to Tezcatlipoca at Teopanzolco (in >Cuernavaca), > >Jorge Perez de Lara >Mexico > >jorgepl at infosel.net.mx Dear Jorge, I can't answer your specific questions, but I'd like to point out that a triad of anything would be decidedly un-Mesoamerican. The Aztec world, sharing in the Mesoamerican cosmovision, was a cognitive world pervaded by 2s (the duality expressed by pairs uch as Ometeotl/Omecihuatl) and 4s (the quadripartite nature of just about everything). Fran From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Jun 25 11:12:48 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 05:12:48 -0600 Subject: Meanings of Names Message-ID: >In the list I sent out, I have some questions about what the names mean. >Specifically I am a bit stumped on boys names: >Any ideas? >Matlalihuitl 'Dark-Green Feather' >Nochhuetl Don't know. But the similar form Nochehuatl means 'consistent through and through' which strikes me as a quality the Nahua would have admired. >Matlal 'Dark Green' >Female names: >Tlaco (half?) 'In-the-Middle' (birth order) >Necahual 'Survivor, Left-Behind' (Maybe this means 'Orphan') >Tlacoehua 'Emerged-in-the-Middle' (i.e., middle in birth order) Listeros, if you are use the list in the original message, please note the following typos: "Yaolt" should read Yaotl ('Enemy') "Cipctli" should read Cipactli ('Caiman, Alligator') Fran From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Jun 25 11:37:47 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 05:37:47 -0600 Subject: MacArthur awards Message-ID: >>From the Bulletin of the Society for the Study of the Indigenous Languages of the Americas: The John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, in Chicago, has named 32 new recipients of MacArthur Fellowships, which are widely known by their unofficial name as "genius grants." The fellows will receive full salary awards for 5 years in amounts determined by their age. We are proud to say that among the 32 recipients of this year's awards are two members of SSILA: * Denny Moore (Coordinator of the Linguistics Division, Museu Paraense Emilio Goeldi, Belem-Para, Brazil). Moore, an anthropological linguist, is making important contributions to preserving the language and culture of endangered indigenous groups in Brazil. With strategies that engage both native speakers and the larger public, he leads the effort to document and preserve well over a hundred endangered languages in Brazil. * Ofelia Zepeda (Professor of Linguistics, Univ. of Arizona, Tucson, AZ). Zepeda is a linguist, poet, editor, and community leader devoted to maintaining and preserving Native American languages and to revitalizing tribal communities and cultures. Her singular work in advancing the field of Native language scholarship positions Zepeda as a unique force on behalf of the continued life of endangered languages. Moore (who is 54) will receive $365,000 over the next 5 years, Zepeda (who is 45) will receive $320,000. Our congratulations to them both! ___________________________________________________________________________ Ofelia is a speaker of Tohono O'odham (Papago). This is a wonderful honor for her, for her people, and for Uto-Aztecanists. Fran From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Fri Jun 25 16:17:26 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:17:26 -0600 Subject: Names web page Message-ID: Dear Nahuatl'ers I have compiled the name information into a web page. I do not yet have links to it from the main Nahuatl web page, but the URL is as follows: http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/names.html Thanks to all of you who helped with translating the names. Fritz John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From robc at csufresno.edu Sat Jun 26 20:26:26 1999 From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert G. Comegys) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 14:26:26 -0600 Subject: Mtbear, Annie, etc Message-ID: Jim, I can't quite figure out how to cut and paste the address book entries here onto this message. So I'll do it backwards, I'll send your address to selected friends and family and copy you instead. John James Comegys wrote: > Dear John or Dad, > > Now that I am on line at home, you may send me messages here. Also, i > would like to alert Mike Pannel to this news. Could you send me his > address? Thank you. > > Jim From arturol at ibt.unam.mx Sun Jun 27 04:00:54 1999 From: arturol at ibt.unam.mx (Arturo Lievano) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 22:00:54 -0600 Subject: delete Message-ID: Please delete me fron the list. Arturo From henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de Mon Jun 28 08:23:54 1999 From: henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 02:23:54 -0600 Subject: Mtbear, Annie, etc Message-ID: Hi, Robert, this came through Nahuat-L, so possibly it didn't reach the intended addressee. Henry "Robert G. Comegys" schrieb: > > Jim, I can't quite figure out how to cut and paste the address book > entries here onto this message. So I'll do it backwards, I'll send your > address to selected friends and family and copy you instead. John > > James Comegys wrote: > > > Dear John or Dad, > > > > Now that I am on line at home, you may send me messages here. Also, i > > would like to alert Mike Pannel to this news. Could you send me his > > address? Thank you. > > > > Jim From OFoley9889 at aol.com Mon Jun 28 08:40:31 1999 From: OFoley9889 at aol.com (OFoley9889 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 02:40:31 -0600 Subject: Mtbear, Annie, etc Message-ID: Hi, yeah, I don't think you reached the intended recipient, but I would like to talk to you about immersion school programs and other indigenous peoples issues. I live in Hawai'i and we will be doing numerous activities aimed at increasing cultural exchange. Aloha, Ohana From henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de Mon Jun 28 09:26:23 1999 From: henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 03:26:23 -0600 Subject: Mtbear, Annie, etc Message-ID: Oops, looks like I did the same stupid thing. Xnechtlapohpolwikan! que me perdonen ... Henry > > Hi, Robert, > > this came through Nahuat-L, so possibly it didn't reach the intended > addressee. > > Henry > From OFoley9889 at aol.com Mon Jun 28 10:01:19 1999 From: OFoley9889 at aol.com (OFoley9889 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:01:19 -0600 Subject: Mtbear, Annie, etc Message-ID: hola, como estas? I am wondering, would you or someone you know be interested in coming to Hawai'i to speak on issues of human rights for indigenous peoples? mahalo nui loa thank you very much, for any ideas you might have. 'Ohana Foley Hablas tu ingles y viajas a Maui para el discusion de la puebla derechos de humanos? From rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au Mon Jun 28 11:51:04 1999 From: rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au (Russell Coleman) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 05:51:04 -0600 Subject: Teoti:-hua-0-ca:tl Message-ID: I have recently learnt that teoti:hua can take tense suffixes. So, can I assume that the preterite theme would be teoti:-hua-0-c? And then, can I assume that adding the noun stem ca:(tl) would create a preterite agentive noun which would look like: teoti:-hua-0-ca:tl? Are my assumptions correct? I am not sure what influence the impersonal verb suffix -hua has upon these assumptions, so I would appreciate any feedback and advice from members of the list. I have based these assumptions on my understaning of michnamacaca:n. That is: mich-namaca-0-ca:-n. This is made up of the preterite theme michnamaca-c plus ca:tl (which creates the preterite agentive noun) plus -n. From observation, I am also making the assumption that when ca:tl attaches to the preterite theme the single number suffix -c is dropped or just not included in this formula. Thanks in advance for any help. Russell Coleman From robc at csufresno.edu Mon Jun 28 16:03:42 1999 From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert G. Comegys) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 10:03:42 -0600 Subject: Mtbear, Annie, etc Message-ID: Dear Henry, Oops! Sorry. Thank you for catching these. I gther you are the Web mater, or look after this site. These really should not go to to the nahuatleros. I apparently got the nahuatl list in with the other addressses by misake. Again, thanks. Robert From rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au Tue Jun 29 06:11:38 1999 From: rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au (Accounts Clerk) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 00:11:38 -0600 Subject: Teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n Message-ID: I did not get any corrections on my last post regarding teoti:-hua-0-ca:tl. So, it would seem that I am on the right track. Now, take the place name Teotihuacan. Would I be correct in assuming that there is a preterite agentive noun form here. So Teotihuacan would look like Teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n : i.e. Teoti:-hua-0-ca: = (it/one was/became a god) = the preterite agentive form made up of (teoti = to be/become a god; -hua = impersonal verb suffix; 0 = zero tense suffix; ca:tl = noun that creates the preterite agentive noun and connects to the locative suffix); plus -n = locative suffix. These are my assumptions and because I have not been corrected in my previous posts I can only assume that I am possibly on the right track in my understanding of the place name Teotihuacan. However, having said that, I know there is one person on the list that will say this is incorrect, that there is a verb here and not a "noun-ified" verb. I now depend upon as much feed back as possible to help me gain a better understanding of the mechanics behind this name Teotihuacan. Is it a verb or is it a preterite agentive noun? And Why? Thanks in advance for your feedback. Russell Coleman P.S. How does one render in English the preterite form teoti:-hua-0-c? Is it "one/it was/became a god? From a.perri at pronet.it Tue Jun 29 12:39:23 1999 From: a.perri at pronet.it (Antonio Perri) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 06:39:23 -0600 Subject: R: Teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n Message-ID: Dear Russell, I apologize for the lateness in the answer. I guess the one you allued it's me, since I wrote some time ago to you in the list about the reaing of "Teotihuacan". As you probably remember, I quoted not my own reading of this locative, but the one given by Launey in his grammar. I wrote as follows: (indeed, the case of Teo-ti-hua-can is analyzed as a verbal one by Launey: "The place where gods make themselves (from the impersonal of teoti, "to become a god")". I quote from Launey grammar: "usually, -can is suffixed to the participial suffix, then to the "ajectives" in -c -qui, possessive nouns in -hua, -e, -yo an agent nouns derived from perfect". Notice, however, that many of these elements (e.g. so-called ajectives) are in fact derived from verbs, an that the same -can is connected to transitive verbs: e.g. from com(itl)-chihua, "to make pottery", we have "con-chiuh-can", "place where they make pottery". In this case, no doubt that "ciuh-" is the root of a verb "to make" with incorporate object. Notice, however, that your basic argument could be splitte in two relevant parts, namely: i) does the suffix *can* allows for ana analysis such as it is formed from *ca(tl)* (a nominal suffix) plus a "generic locative" *n*? I have no definite answer to you on this matter (incidentally, I wonder if someone "wiser" in the list could be of some help in elucidating this point also to me); ii) does *teoti-hua-(c-atl)* is a nounified verb, or it is just a verb? The answer to this question is quite simple an quite difficult at the same time: indeed, one could say "it is both a name and a verb", provided that the "indoeuropean" binary contrast between names and verbs no longer holds for an omnipredicative lunguage such as nahuatl. In other words, you could either consider *teotihua(c-atl)* as a name (but notice that you always need to translate it as a sort of predicative clause, "one/it was/became a god") or, in the form *teotihua(c)* as a verb "(the gods) make (made) temselves", i.e. "they became god". It doesn't really matter which is your option, since the real meaning of the nahuatl form is someting in-between the two, say, a predicative form one could translate into English (or Italian, of course) nounifying it (always in a predicative form) or as a common verbal utterance. Sincerely Antonio -----Messaggio originale----- Da: Accounts Clerk A: Multiple recipients of list Data: marted? 29 giugno 1999 9.19 Oggetto: Teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n >I did not get any corrections on my last post regarding teoti:-hua-0-ca:tl. >So, it would seem that I am on the right track. > >Now, take the place name Teotihuacan. Would I be correct in assuming that >there is a preterite agentive noun form here. > >So Teotihuacan would look like Teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n : > >i.e. Teoti:-hua-0-ca: = (it/one was/became a god) = the preterite agentive >form made up of (teoti = to be/become a god; -hua = impersonal verb suffix; >0 = zero tense suffix; ca:tl = noun that creates the preterite agentive noun >and connects to the locative suffix); plus -n = locative suffix. > >These are my assumptions and because I have not been corrected in my >previous posts I can only assume that I am possibly on the right track in my >understanding of the place name Teotihuacan. However, having said that, I >know there is one person on the list that will say this is incorrect, that >there is a verb here and not a "noun-ified" verb. I now depend upon as much >feed back as possible to help me gain a better understanding of the >mechanics behind this name Teotihuacan. > >Is it a verb or is it a preterite agentive noun? And Why? > >Thanks in advance for your feedback. > >Russell Coleman > >P.S. How does one render in English the preterite form teoti:-hua-0-c? Is >it "one/it was/became a god? > > From lidia1 at pue1.telmex.net.mx Tue Jun 29 19:04:08 1999 From: lidia1 at pue1.telmex.net.mx (Lidia Gomez) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:04:08 -0600 Subject: Meanings of Names Message-ID: Listeros: We discussed Frances Kartunen's traslation for nahuatl names at Luis Reyes' Seminar and came up with some other translation: > > >>Matlalihuitl >'Dark-Green Feather' - It could be also "Purple Feather" (pluma morada). El nombre aparece tambien en 'La historia de Tlaxcala' de Munnoz Camargo y en el documento No. 254 de la Biblioteca Nacional de Paris en forma reverecial: Matlalihuitzin. >>Nochhuetl >Don't know. But the similar form Nochehuatl means 'consistent through and >through' which strikes me as a quality the Nahua would have admired. - Tuna, the one who posses tunas (poseedor de tunas). El glifo de este nombre es una tuna. >>Matlal >'Dark Green' > - Net (red) or Crib (cuna). Lidia ___________________________________ Lidia Gomez, Edmundo Gutierrez, Bilha, Adrian 3 Oriente 850-E, C. P. 72810 San Andres Cholula, Puebla MEXICO Tel: 52 (22) 473749 e-mail: lidia1 at pue1.telmex.net.mx From henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de Wed Jun 30 09:16:13 1999 From: henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 03:16:13 -0600 Subject: Meanings of Names Message-ID: Lidia Gomez schrieb: > > Listeros: > > We discussed Frances Kartunen's traslation for nahuatl names at Luis Reyes' > Seminar and came up with some other translation: > > >>Nochhuetl > >Don't know. But the similar form Nochehuatl means 'consistent through and > >through' which strikes me as a quality the Nahua would have admired. > > - Tuna, the one who posses tunas (poseedor de tunas). El glifo de este > nombre es una tuna. wouldn't this be nochhuah (nochwa')? > >>Matlal > >'Dark Green' > > > - Net (red) or Crib (cuna). why should -tl become -l? net ist ma:tlatl From rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au Wed Jun 30 10:34:17 1999 From: rcoleman at library.uwa.edu.au (Accounts Clerk) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 04:34:17 -0600 Subject: R: Teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n Message-ID: >Notice, however, that your basic argument could be splitte in two relevant >parts, namely: I am not actually arguing that teoti:-hua-0-ca:n is the correct translation. I am merely trying to understand the mechanics behind it. It is one of the two argued translations that I have seen on this list. To me, teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n can only be possible if there is a preterite agentive noun form present i.e. teoti:-hua-0-ca:. If it doesn't exist here and there is only a verb form here then the suffix ca:-n is out of place. From what I understand, ca:-n can only affix to a noun or a preterite theme (thus making a preterite agentive noun, courtesy of ca:tl), NOT a verb. The other translation teo-ti-huah-can (ie God Possessor Place) makes sense except that the ligature "ti" is out of place. The suffix ca:-n belongs here because it attaches to a noun. The etymology of this second translation is easier to determine than that of teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n. Does teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n contain a preterite agentive noun or not? Is it just a verb? A simple yes or no doesn't seem forthcoming. What is it that makes this hard to determine if there is a noun-ified verb or not? Is it the -hua suffix? To me that seems to be the main difference from other words like michnamaca-0-ca:-n. My aim is not to determine which is the correct translation (I'll leave that to the experts) but just to understand the mechanics behind the two translations. >It doesn't really matter which is your option, since >the real meaning of the nahuatl form is someting in-between the two, say, a I'm not sure about this because, from what I understand, the locative suffix ca:-n must attach to a noun or preterite agentive noun, not to a verb. Thanks in advance for your feedback. Russell Coleman From SANCHEM2 at sce.com Wed Jun 30 13:39:48 1999 From: SANCHEM2 at sce.com (Sanchez, Michael) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:39:48 -0600 Subject: Class schedule Message-ID: Was hoping you would have information of a course being offered in Southern California. Mike Sanchez SCE Alhambra Bldg. "C" Pax 46226 (626) 308-6226 From henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de Wed Jun 30 14:46:38 1999 From: henry.kammler at stadt-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:46:38 -0600 Subject: R: Teoti:-hua-0-ca:-n Message-ID: > >Notice, however, that your basic argument could be splitte in two relevant > >parts, namely: > > I am not actually arguing that teoti:-hua-0-ca:n is the correct translation. > I am merely trying to understand the mechanics behind it. Place name translations are often tentative. I don't know (probably somebody does) for how long the name Teotihuacan had been in use before the "conquest". It could reflect (1) an older layer of language history, (2) a regional variant that was replaced later or (3) a word in which certain affixes disappeared by assimilation [it can well be a shortened form of a once longer name]. Try and translate English placenames... Why should there be consistency in this case? Henry From fabian at nuclecu.unam.mx Wed Jun 30 18:43:40 1999 From: fabian at nuclecu.unam.mx (Fabian E. Pena Arellano) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:43:40 -0600 Subject: New Testament in Classical Nahuatl. Message-ID: Some days ago I read on the web that in 1833 someone translated Bible's New Testament into classical nahuatl. I wrote the people in charge of those pages (one of Nance's profiles) but don't know about it. Does anyone of you know if it is still on print? Thank you. Fabian Pena