From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Nov 2 07:51:47 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 00:51:47 -0700 Subject: 'Totatzine' Message-ID: Fran has already covered the ground on "timoetztica" and I thought I'd add a bit on a related sliver of the grammar -- certainly not a grammatical generality, but a feature that shows through the clouds and teases us. That "tz" which indicates 'causative' to make up the honorific with the preceding "mo" also shows up again in the pair: huaqui it dries up nichuatza I dry it (I cause it to dry up) || (in case someone is bothered by the spelling, remember that this can't involve /ch/, since a "u" doesn't occur independently in Nahuatl; it is part of "qu" or "hu", so since the "u" is part of the representation of /w/, the "c" represents /k/. The causative normally shows up as a suffix (e.g., -ltia, -tia, -itia, -lia, -a, -huia, change of -ihui or -ahui to -oa). But with a set of verbs commented on by Carochi which frequently involves a sound, there is an interesting formation for verbs which indicate a continued or repeated action. Not only do they reduplicate their initial syllable (up though the vowel), but they undergo a change at the end of the word. For intransitive verbs, the final syllable is deleted and replaced by -ca. For the transitive (causative) form of these verbs the replacive element is -tza, which is suspiciously similar to the "-tza" on "nichuatza" (above). I give a list below. I included forms which I failed to gloss in cases where there was difficulty in wording (or some other reason to pull the veil). Best regards, Joe calani it clanks cacalaca it clanks continually, it rattles quicacalatza he rattles it continually capani it cracks, it pops cacapaca it pops continually quicacapatza he makes it pop continually chalani it makes an out of tune sound chachalaca it continually makes an out of tune sound quichachalatza he makes it make an out of tune sound continually chapani it makes a splat sound chachapaca it repeatedly makes a splat sound quichachapatza he makes it splat repeatedly chipini it drips chichipica it drips repeatedly quichichipitza he makes it drip repeatedly comoni cocomoca quicocomotza cotoni it breaks, it parts cocotoca it breaks repeatedly quicocototza he causes it to break repeatedly cualani he gets angry cuacualaca it continually boils quicuacualatza he makes it boil continually cueponi it bursts cuecuepoca it bursts repeatedly quicuecuepotza he makes it burst repeatedly cuetlani it shakes cuecuetlaca it continually shakes quicuecuetlatza he makes it shake continually cueyoni it seethes cuecueyoca it seethes continually quicuecueyotza he makes it seethe continually hualani huahualaca quihuahualatza huiyoni it trembles huihuiyoca it trembles continually quihuihuiyotza he makes it tremble continally moloni it seethes momoloca it seethes continually quimomolotza he makes it seethe continually patlani it flies papatlaca it flutters (continually) quipapatlatza he makes it flutter (continually) payana it crumbles papayaca it crumbles continually quipapayatza he makes it crumble continually petlani it shines pepetlaca it shines continually, it glistens quipepetlatza he makes it glisten continually poloni he stutters popoloca he stutters continually quipopolotza* pozoni it boils popozoca it boils continually quipopozotza he makes it boil continually tecuini it beats tetecuica it beats continually quitetecuitza* he makes it beat continually tlapani it breaks tlatlapaca it breaks repeatedly quitlatlapatza he makes it break repeatedly tlatzini it bursts tlatlatzica* quitlatlatzitza* tzicuini it jumps tzitzicuica it jumps continually quitzitzicuitza* tzilini it rings, tinkles tzitzilica it jingles continually quitzitzilitza he makes it jingle continually tzotlani [glaze] tzotzotlaca quitzotzotlatza tzoyoni it fries tzotzoyoca it fries continually quitzotzoyotza he makes it fry continually xamani it crumbles, breaks xaxamaca it crumbles continually quixaxamatza he makes it crumble continually xitini it crumbles, desintegrates xixitica it crumbles continually quixixititza* zahuani* zazahuaca* zoloni it whooshes zozoloca it whooshes continually quizozolotza he makes it whoosh continually From apricotwhite at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 5 11:43:02 1999 From: apricotwhite at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Kerry=20Velazquez?=) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 04:43:02 -0700 Subject: Tata Message-ID: Can anyone tell me whether "tata", meaning "daddy", comes directly from the classical nahuatl "tahtli" (father), or from Spanish? I have always assumed that "tata" is a diminutive of "tahtli", but I have recently been told that "tata" has the same meaning in Spain. Is this just a co-incidence or is there a reason? Kerry Velazquez ===== Kerry Velazquez Hernandez apricotwhite at yahoo.co.uk 11G Goldsbrough Court Richardson Road Newcastle-upon-Tyne NE2 4BG United Kingdom ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Nov 5 11:58:00 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 04:58:00 -0700 Subject: Tata Message-ID: My guess would be that it is simply English 'dada' with devoiced consonants. :) On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, [iso-8859-1] Kerry Velazquez wrote: > Can anyone tell me whether "tata", meaning "daddy", > comes directly from the classical nahuatl "tahtli" > (father), or from Spanish? > I have always assumed that "tata" is a diminutive of > "tahtli", but I have recently been told that "tata" > has the same meaning in Spain. Is this just a > co-incidence or is there a reason? > > Kerry Velazquez > > > > > ===== > Kerry Velazquez Hernandez > apricotwhite at yahoo.co.uk > 11G Goldsbrough Court > Richardson Road > Newcastle-upon-Tyne > NE2 4BG > United Kingdom > ____________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk > or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie > Michael McCafferty C.E.L.T. 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going from the me that others don't know to the other me that I don't know. -Juan Ramon Jimenez ******************************************************************************* From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Nov 5 14:44:24 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 07:44:24 -0700 Subject: Tata Message-ID: There is a famous publication by Roman Jakobson on the emergence of language that makes the point that dada, papa, mama, baba and the like are universal children's words for parents and grandparents because the vowel [a] and the stops, with and without voicing, nasalization, and rounding, are the first articulations that babies get reliable control of cross-linguistically. ---------- >From: Michael Mccafferty >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Tata >Date: Fri, Nov 5, 1999, 6:59 AM > > My guess would be that it is simply English 'dada' with devoiced > consonants. > > :) > > On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, [iso-8859-1] Kerry Velazquez wrote: > >> Can anyone tell me whether "tata", meaning "daddy", >> comes directly from the classical nahuatl "tahtli" >> (father), or from Spanish? >> I have always assumed that "tata" is a diminutive of >> "tahtli", but I have recently been told that "tata" >> has the same meaning in Spain. Is this just a >> co-incidence or is there a reason? >> >> Kerry Velazquez >> >> >> >> >> ===== >> Kerry Velazquez Hernandez >> apricotwhite at yahoo.co.uk >> 11G Goldsbrough Court >> Richardson Road >> Newcastle-upon-Tyne >> NE2 4BG >> United Kingdom >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk >> or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie >> > > > Michael McCafferty > C.E.L.T. > 307 Memorial Hall > Indiana University > Bloomington, Indiana > 47405 > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > **************************************************************************** *** > "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going > from the me that others don't know > to the other me that I don't know. > > -Juan Ramon Jimenez > > **************************************************************************** *** > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Nov 5 16:52:15 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 09:52:15 -0700 Subject: Tata Message-ID: Sure, Fran. But more to the point: The point I was making is that an English speaking child would go for an imitation of the alveolar consonant of his parents' "Daddy" with reference to the initial question posed this morning. Naturally, if the parents called the father "Papa," the child would probably tend to choose a bilabial. It would be interesting to see if a child in an environment where "Daddy" is used came up with [papa]. On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Frances Karttunen wrote: > There is a famous publication by Roman Jakobson on the emergence of language > that makes the point that dada, papa, mama, baba and the like are universal > children's words for parents and grandparents because the vowel [a] and the > stops, with and without voicing, nasalization, and rounding, are the first > articulations that babies get reliable control of cross-linguistically. > > ---------- > >From: Michael Mccafferty > >To: Multiple recipients of list > >Subject: Re: Tata > >Date: Fri, Nov 5, 1999, 6:59 AM > > > > > My guess would be that it is simply English 'dada' with devoiced > > consonants. > > > > :) > > > > On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, [iso-8859-1] Kerry Velazquez wrote: > > > >> Can anyone tell me whether "tata", meaning "daddy", > >> comes directly from the classical nahuatl "tahtli" > >> (father), or from Spanish? > >> I have always assumed that "tata" is a diminutive of > >> "tahtli", but I have recently been told that "tata" > >> has the same meaning in Spain. Is this just a > >> co-incidence or is there a reason? > >> > >> Kerry Velazquez > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ===== > >> Kerry Velazquez Hernandez > >> apricotwhite at yahoo.co.uk > >> 11G Goldsbrough Court > >> Richardson Road > >> Newcastle-upon-Tyne > >> NE2 4BG > >> United Kingdom > >> ____________________________________________________________ > >> Do You Yahoo!? > >> Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk > >> or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie > >> > > > > > > Michael McCafferty > > C.E.L.T. > > 307 Memorial Hall > > Indiana University > > Bloomington, Indiana > > 47405 > > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > > > > **************************************************************************** > *** > > "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going > > from the me that others don't know > > to the other me that I don't know. > > > > -Juan Ramon Jimenez > > > > > **************************************************************************** > *** > > > > > Michael McCafferty C.E.L.T. 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going from the me that others don't know to the other me that I don't know. -Juan Ramon Jimenez ******************************************************************************* From cberry at cinenet.net Fri Nov 5 18:07:11 1999 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:07:11 -0700 Subject: Tata Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Sure, Fran. But more to the point: The point I was making is that an > English speaking child would go for an imitation of the alveolar consonant > of his parents' "Daddy" with reference to the initial question posed this > morning. Naturally, if the parents called the father "Papa," the child > would probably tend to choose a bilabial. It would be interesting to see > if a child in an environment where "Daddy" is used came up with [papa]. Preverbal children come up with 'baba', 'dada', 'mama', 'tata', 'gaga', 'nana', 'papa', and many others. Often the consonant is unclear. The key is that when they happen to get close to the local culture's kinship terms, they get rewarded with lots of praise and attention. This feedback loop quickly trains them which sounds to use to trigger these reactions, and indeed typically leads to one of the first assignments of meaning to a sound (connecting 'mama' with mother and so forth). -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling From dfrye at umich.edu Fri Nov 5 19:38:07 1999 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 12:38:07 -0700 Subject: Tata Message-ID: The responses from Frances Karttunen et al. should already indicated that, no matter what, this isn't entirely a coincidence. But the first question is whether 'tata' really means 'father/daddy' in Spain. I certainly never heard it used in the 2 years I lived there. The Diccionario de Regionalismos de la Lengua Espanola, one of the cooler web sites out there (http://www.hispanicus.com/drle/) has "tata. America, Murcia. Padre, papa," indicating that it is only used in this sense in the province of Murcia (as well as "America," which is of course inaccurate -- it isn't used in Cuba or Argentina, for example). For the rest of Spain, it shows 'tata' as meaning 'Nin~era. Empleada del hogar.' In short, I would stick with your original assumption. The places where 'tata' means father seem to line up with those where the indigenous term (not only Nahuatl) for father is something like 'tata.' Murcia might be a case of an 'indiano' usage being brought back home... David Frye On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, [iso-8859-1] Kerry Velazquez wrote: > Can anyone tell me whether "tata", meaning "daddy", comes directly > from the classical nahuatl "tahtli" (father), or from Spanish? I have > always assumed that "tata" is a diminutive of "tahtli", but I have > recently been told that "tata" has the same meaning in Spain. Is this > just a co-incidence or is there a reason? From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 6 10:06:29 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 03:06:29 -0700 Subject: Tata Message-ID: > The key > is that when they happen to get close to the local culture's kinship > terms, they get rewarded with lots of praise and attention. This feedback > loop quickly trains them which sounds to use to trigger these reactions, > and indeed typically leads to one of the first assignments of meaning to a > sound (connecting 'mama' with mother and so forth). From leonelhermida at netc.pt Sun Nov 7 13:15:03 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 06:15:03 -0700 Subject: Aztec star-gazing Message-ID: Hi, I just came across two names the Aztecs used associated with 'celestial objects', namely "Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli" for the god associated with planet Venus and "Piltzintecuhtli" for the one associated with planet Mercury (sic, in a source on the Web) Now, if they were able to spot the elusive planet Mercury they must have known quite well the other planets (which are much more conspicuous, I mean Mars, Jupiter and even Saturn) Are their names known, and if so what were they? I'm sure star-gazers would welcome the Nahuatl names of the 7 'wanderers' (Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn)... Thank you. Leonel From jcarlson at deans.umd.edu Sun Nov 7 18:49:07 1999 From: jcarlson at deans.umd.edu (John B. Carlson) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 11:49:07 -0700 Subject: Aztec star-gazing Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Nov 1999, Leonel Hermida wrote: > Hi, > > I just came across two names the Aztecs used associated with 'celestial > objects', namely "Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli" for the god associated with planet > Venus and "Piltzintecuhtli" for the one associated with planet Mercury (sic, > in a source on the Web) > Now, if they were able to spot the elusive planet Mercury they must have > known quite well the other planets (which are much more conspicuous, > I mean Mars, Jupiter and even Saturn) > Are their names known, and if so what were they? I'm sure star-gazers > would welcome the Nahuatl names of the 7 'wanderers' (Sun, Moon, > Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn)... > > Thank you. > > Leonel My reaction to your question is two-fold: First, you mention "a source on the web." What source? Why don't you tell us where you get your information? Secondly, there is a real wealth of information about Venus, but nothing I know of about Mercury. Can you give us the sources for the suggestion that Mercury is associated with Piltzintecuhtli? I don't know of any, but if they exist, it might be interesting. Without ethnohistorical or archaeological sources, or evidence from the pre-contact or post-contact codices, any speculation about the planets is just that... a good example of "Rorschach" scholarship. If you need further references on Venus, I could provide them. Sincerely, John Carlson From leonelhermida at netc.pt Mon Nov 8 12:17:30 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 05:17:30 -0700 Subject: Aztec star-gazing Message-ID: Hi, First. My apologies for having not provided my source about relating the name Piltzintecuhtli with the planet Mercury. I didn't know it is a controverted statement... However, as I didn't intend to make any point and even less enter a scholarly controversy about what I surmised be 'ordinary public knowledge', I didn't pursue any further my investigation about the source: I only wrote down the information in my note-book with the word "sic" between brackets, only to remember myself I had already seen the selfsame name attributed elsewhere to the Sun god, by another author. (If I'm required to supply this one too I think I shall scream...) So, be sure I'll provide publicly (here) the site where I got that important "information", as soon as I find it out again. Second. My question was just about the very names of the planets (if known), not about which authorities support that names themselves. Mr. Carlson would perhaps have given a better help to the 'List' as a whole if he supplied those names (at least the ones there is agreement about) (remarking passing by that Piltzintecuhtli = Mercury is far from certain) instead of getting questioning what my source was. By Jove! Have I ever suggested I was expending an 'original and important' opinion? I can only assure everybody I have not 'forged' myself the disputed equation as I will show when I find out the source of so "disturbing" an assumption. As it is, I can only quote an ancient Greek saying about such a 'void discussion about nothing': "peri onou skias", that is to say, 'about the shadow of an ass'... Best regards. Leonel P.S. I just found it out. Please click the following link: http://northcoast.com/~spdtom/a-god3.html and look it up in alphabetic order s.v. 'Piltzintecuhtli'. Thank you for your attention. Leonel From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 8 17:32:21 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:32:21 -0700 Subject: Aztec star-gazing Message-ID: > My question was just about the very names of the planets (if known), not > about which authorities support that names themselve Greetings: I would argue that the difference proposed above - names of the planets vs. authorities which give those names - is a false one and a dangerous one. Al= l knowledge is social and it makes a very big difference as to who says what when. And it makes even more difference when 1/ we are discussing people wh= o are dead and could only leave records through Franciscan documents or other colonial sources, (Sahag=FAn sez Tezcatlipoca =3D Jupiter, etc) 2/ when the people are living and known to us through ethnographers some of whom speak Nahuatl, some don't, all of whom have a particular perspective, and 3/ when Mexican nationalism has done it's own fair share of invention re. indigenou= s culture, creating a "Classical" past not to mention "Classical" Nahuatl. (This latter is particularly odd as Nahuatl today is less distant from the Nahuatl of the early colonial period than English is from Elizabethan times= . Shakespeare is not "Classical" English.) The point is that sources matter. LOTS. It is not the point to say that source-x is biased. (All sources and all interpreters are biased.) The point is "how to read through that bias/perspective in order to decide what is reliable and what is not." Even the names of planets as gods is a tricky issue if one bothers to ask what gods are, i.e. what they do in a particular culture in certain times, places. Early colonial sources (Cortes' letters & Bernal D=EDaz, Mendieta) refer to the Nahuas calling them "gods." Well, this has done a lot to makin= g Nahuas into a benighted lot, given such an error. However, if one bothers t= o question our own assumption of what a "god" is, or, better, what a "teotl/teule" is, then we find that Nahuas themselves called their own rulers "teotl" and had numerous practices which enforced this identificatio= n (not looking directly at the ruler as one does not look directly at the sun= , etc.) This changes matters considerably. It "humanizes gods" while at the same time "deifying rulers." Because many people think about other cultures in translation, often things are translated too soon, i.e. teotl into "god" or "god" into "planet" leaving a cognitive dissonance between cultures and thereby making the "other" exotic. If the ruler =3D the sun (cf. abundant evidence in "refranes" in Book 3 of Florentine Codex - "New Sun =3D New ruler= " etc.) then maybe even such things as "feeding the sun" - the ostensible reason behind human sacrifice - takes on new meaning, i.e. makes more sense= , if we were to think of it as "feeding the ruler" i.e. supplying the ruler with goods/commodities. Re. "star-gazing" one must ask what it is and why Mesoamericans did it and do it when they do. The reasons are not the same as those of us working, say, with Hubble. Nor are they the same as those of the 16th Spaniards who recorded these Nahua practices. Recall that neither Spaniards nor Nahua nor many researchers doubt their own cosmology. If I were to go into downtown Boulder and meet an alien, we'd talk about his/her/? arrival in terms of th= e speed of light and red shift because that is the way our culture does it. Similarly, 16th century (and later) Spaniards knew that the universe had thirteen layers from the four elements to the moon to planets, to empyrean, and so on. When asking Nahua about this they were not interested in Nahua cosmology but in fitting Nahua names into Spanish (true and unexamined) categories. If we want to think of the Hero Twins as Venus and the Sun or a= s the Sun and Moon, we're only perpetuating such misunderstandings unless we ask what heroes are, what twins are, what Venus is, what the sun is and wha= t these relations imply. We need context to make sense. Are there any good writings that have done this with the Greeks and Romans? as "Classical" Greece and Rome is likewise the invention of a later culture. Greek "mythology" was certainly not as "literary" when it was oral and still practiced. So, as Ralph Linton has it, "The last thing a fish sees is the water." and as Walt Kelly has it, "We have met the enemy and he is us." I think what Dr. Carlson is pointing out is that without examining the assumptions made by the sources we cannot understand much. Nothing simple. Everything complex, ambiguous and always engaging. Best, Richard Haly From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 8 17:36:24 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:36:24 -0700 Subject: FW: Tata Take Two Message-ID: > >> The key >> is that when they happen to get close to the local culture's kinship >> terms, they get rewarded with lots of praise and attention. This feedback >> loop quickly trains them which sounds to use to trigger these reactions, >> and indeed typically leads to one of the first assignments of meaning to a >> sound (connecting 'mama' with mother and so forth). > Sorry, the earlier version went off before I was finished with it. Elinor Ochs writes about language acquisition of her two year-old daughter. (reference not at hand, sorry). She tells how they would play with finger puppets and the puppet would say, "Hi." One day a sock falls from the drawer and lands across the bare toes of her daughter who points at it and sez "Hi." Now if Elinor Ochs' daughter were in a culture in which tubular-cloth-over-bodily-extremity meant "Hi" or in a culture (Purepucha for example) in which flat things - lakes and tortillas, take the same particle, or ears and hinges on doors, another, then her daughter would have "learned" something that day instead of "getting it wrong." It seems as though children constantly invent language (Vico would agree) and adults shape it into shared forms. I wonder what will happen when all the teenagers who say "like" followed by a sound and an action - "like she was all AHHHH" = "she was frightened" - have children.... Best, Richard Haly From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 8 17:50:57 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:50:57 -0700 Subject: Piltzinteuctli etc. website Message-ID: PILTZINTECUHTLI-"Youthful God" Also known as the representation of the planet Mercury. Known as a young god and his name means "Prince" who had golden hair like the sun. During pole climbing ceremonies conducted during festivals he was represented by young men dressed in his image. This deity may also have been worshiped in some fashion in conjunction with the sun. Legends state that PILTZINTECUHTLI was a second generation god and was mated with a goddess created from a lock of hair of Xochiquetzal, the "Flower Princess". This mating produced a son, Cinteotl (Cenotel?), the maize god. Piltzinteuctli was seen as a strong spring sun cohabiting with the mother earth to make corn. This is from the website Leonel mentions. Some sources are documented (Gilmor, Brundage, and Townsend) the first two, are not critical sources (Brundage sees through "Classical" eyes) and Townsend is as solid as an general text in that area can be (tho' my students complain, he doesn't cite his sources enough either....) Lots of spelling mistakes in the Nahuatl. I think the website in general is part of a series aimed at High School or Community College which for some reason implies that students needn't think critically until late college... Richard Haly From mikegaby at hotmail.com Tue Nov 9 03:25:25 1999 From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:25:25 -0700 Subject: REMOVE Message-ID: >From: "Reed Christopher L" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: REMOVE >Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:54:20 -0700 > >REMOVE THIS ADDRESS FROM YOUR MAILING LISTS!! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mikegaby at hotmail.com Tue Nov 9 05:45:57 1999 From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:45:57 -0700 Subject: Aztec star-gazing Message-ID: Leonel, You needn't feel offended by Mr. Carlson's response. The concern that many on the list share is the spreading of misinformation, usually unintentional. It is especially disturbing to those whose life work is the study of these cultures and languages. It is their life and they take it very seriously. As your studies of Aztec religion takes you deeper into the subject, you will quickly discover that sources of information becomes a central focus. These sources become a guide-post of sorts that allows the scholar/student to judge for themselves the validity of the information they are reading. Consider the people who firmly believe and expound that the origin of Mesoamerican culture can be found in Atlantis or worse, the Pleides systems (this of course being an extreme example of misinformation). Or simply ask the average person on the street about Mayan or Aztec culture and their responses will be filled with misinformation from obselete or questionable sources, they are not even aware of. The website you mentioned is quite impressive in it's body of information, however some of the spellings and translations seem to be questionable. The site also seems to be trying to relate Mesoamerican religion in Classical Hellenic terms...that can pose a lot of problems. This is the first time I have ever seen "Piltzintecuhtli" associated with Mercury, or any other heavenly body besides the sun for that matter. Clearly that Aztecs were quite familiar with the visible planets....I think the debate of relating these to named personages is still unsettled. Venus's importance is much older than the Aztecs civilization and was featured prominently in Mesoamerican religion...thus it's namesakes are widely known. As for the others, well consider your source first. Good Luck in your studies, Mike Gaby >From: Leonel Hermida >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Aztec star-gazing >Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 05:17:54 -0700 > >Hi, > >First. >My apologies for having not provided my source about relating the name >Piltzintecuhtli with the planet Mercury. I didn't know it is a controverted >statement... However, as I didn't intend to make any point and even less >enter a scholarly controversy about what I surmised be 'ordinary public >knowledge', I didn't pursue any further my investigation about the source: >I only wrote down the information in my note-book with the word "sic" >between brackets, only to remember myself I had already seen the >selfsame name attributed elsewhere to the Sun god, by another author. >(If I'm required to supply this one too I think I shall scream...) >So, be sure I'll provide publicly (here) the site where I got that >important >"information", as soon as I find it out again. >Second. >My question was just about the very names of the planets (if known), not >about which authorities support that names themselves. Mr. Carlson >would perhaps have given a better help to the 'List' as a whole if he >supplied those names (at least the ones there is agreement about) >(remarking passing by that Piltzintecuhtli = Mercury is far from certain) >instead of getting questioning what my source was. >By Jove! Have I ever suggested I was expending an 'original and >important' opinion? I can only assure everybody I have not 'forged' myself >the disputed equation as I will show when I find out the source of so >"disturbing" an assumption. >As it is, I can only quote an ancient Greek saying about such a 'void >discussion about nothing': "peri onou skias", that is to say, 'about the >shadow of an ass'... > >Best regards. >Leonel > >P.S. I just found it out. Please click the following link: > >http://northcoast.com/~spdtom/a-god3.html > >and look it up in alphabetic order s.v. 'Piltzintecuhtli'. >Thank you for your attention. >Leonel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From leonelhermida at netc.pt Tue Nov 9 12:51:40 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 05:51:40 -0700 Subject: Aztec star-gazing Message-ID: Hi, It looks somewhat amazing to see how a totaly 'innocent' query about just a few names (I maintain my interest was in names, leaving to others the difficult task to criticise the sources and indicating the degree of probability of each proposed identification) has turned out almost as a 'bomb' in some scholarly circles. I have received not less than 8 responses, 4 of which on-list (so to speak) and as many off-list, mainly suggesting I should keep asking 'difficult' questions for the benefit of many 'listeros'. I must confess I always read with the utmost attention Mr. R. Haly's contributions to the "List", though his posts are oftentimes (though not always) hard to read by my mail utility. This is because of the "MIME" formating characters which are put in probably without his knowledge what results in a lot of strange characters (= inside words accompanied by line-break, =FA, =3D and the like). I say I read with the utmost attention his posts even when I don't agree nor understand them. Let us examine this one: >Re. "star-gazing" one must ask what it is and why Mesoamericans >did it and do it when they do. The reasons are not the same as those >of us working, say, with Hubble. Nor are they the same as those of the >16th Spaniards who recorded these Nahua practices. Recall that >neither Spaniards nor Nahua nor many researchers doubt their own >cosmology For me star-gazing is what happens when my wife says to me by a clear evening: 'please look up in your "planetary" what planet is "that star" which is shining so brightly to-day the other side of the house'. My questions were not intended to be different from that: what were the names the Aztec priests (which were so sophisticated observers of Venus as everyone knows) gave to the planets: as simple as that... And there is something that suggests me the association between Mercury and Piltzintecuhtli (perhaps more correctly Piltzinteuctli) is perhaps more than a mischievous invention of some malicious imp, with the intention of difficulting the pacific life of so erudite and acute scholars. Thank you. Kind regards, Leonel From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 9 19:46:58 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:46:58 -0700 Subject: Aztec star-gazing Message-ID: > And there is something that suggests me the association between > Mercury and Piltzintecuhtli (perhaps more correctly Piltzinteuctli) is > perhaps more than a mischievous invention of some malicious imp, > with the intention of difficulting the pacific life of so erudite and acute > scholars. My guess (and it's only that) is that Piltzinteuctli was equated with Mercury as Piltzin + teuctli can be translated as "Child-Lord" or improperly as "Child of the Lord" and could therefore be applied to the little thing (Mercury) that hangs around the Lord (the sun). This is, again, speculation as I'm simply recalling other baseless argument styles that I've seen. Sorry about the odd characters. It surprised me too. Not normal. Using (very happily) a Mac G3 powerbook and Outlook Express 5.0. Nothing odd there. Quien sabe. By the way, per stargazing, latest estimates of number of galaxies in (our?/the?) universe is 50 billion. To try to make sense of this for my son I proposed (following Wm. Blake) One grain of sand = One galaxy and 100 grains = 1gram which eventually leads to 408 cubic yards of sand which is more than 40 dumptrucks full or, can it be almost a cubic quarter mile? Geez, and I thought Microsoft was big. Best, Richard From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Nov 11 22:09:29 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:09:29 -0700 Subject: Adjective formation Message-ID: Leonel, I haven't forgotten about our adjective formation discussion, but I got detoured on making a newer list of them. In the meantime, here is the older one. Best regards, Joe Key to "Adjective" Formation and Verb Sources -c (preterit ending attached to basic verb) Source Verb "Adjective" English ahhuiya (be fragrant) ahhuiyac fragrant ala:hua (become slick) ala:huac slippery cama:hua (become ripe) cama:huac ripe cana:hua (become thin) cana:huac thin catza:hua (become dirty) catza:huac dirty chama:hua (become chubby) chama:huac chubby, filled out chica:hua (be strong) chica:huac strong chipa:hua (purify) chipa:huac clean, pure coya:hua (extend, enlarge a hole) coya:huac wide (e.g. opening) cuala:ntli-cui (grab) cuala:ncuic angry [patientive noun from cuala:ni] cuaitl-pitza:hua (become thin) cuapitza:huac something pointed at the top cuechtli-e:hua (become sooty) cueche:huac sooted up huapa:hua (become stiff) huapa:huac stiff, firm hue:iya (grow) hue:yac long iucci (ripen, cook) iuccic ripened, cooked i:xtli-hue:iya (grow) i:xhue:yac long faced i:xtli-pitza:hua (become thin) i:xpitza:huac thin faced iztetl-dup-hue:iya (grow) iztehuehue:yac long nailed mo-tlazohtla (love) motlazohtlac expensive nacaztli-hue:iya (grow) nacazhue:yac long earred patla:hua (widen) patla:huac wide pitza:hua (become thin) pitza:huac thin po:ch-[po:ctli]-e:hua poche:huac smoked up poya:hua (darken) poya:huac dark, painted poza:hua (inflate) poza:huac swollen te:ntli-tila:hua (thicken) te:ntila:huac thick lipped or wide hemmed te:ntli-toma:hua (grow fat) te:ntoma:huac thick lipped tila:hua (thicken) tila:huac thick tlahto:lli-hue:iya (grow) tlahto:lhue:yac loquacious [patientive noun from tla-ihto:a] tlatla (burn) tlatlac burned tli:lli-e:hua (become) tli:le:huac blackened toma:hua (grow fat) toma:huac fat tzi:ntli-pitza:hua (become thin) tzi:mpitza:huac pointed at the bottom tzope:lia (sweeten) tzope:lic sweet xo:tla (burn, bloom) xo:tlac hot, bloomed yacatl-pitza:hua (become thin) yacapitza:huac pointed yacatl-toma:hua (grow fat) yacatoma:huac fat nosed yohua (get dark) yohuac nighttime yo:llo:tl-chica:hua (be strong) yo:llo:chica:huac courageous zotla:hua (faint) zotla:huac fainted, limp -qui (preterit ending attached to basic verb) a:tl-te:mi (fill up) a:te:nqui full of water cactli-dup-copi:na (remove) caccocopi:nqui barefoot cactli-toma (loosen) cactonqui barefoot calaqui (entered) calacqui one who has entered capotza:hui (turn black) capotza:uhqui blackened caxa:ni (loosen) caxa:nqui loosened, badly tied ce:hui (calm, cool) ce:uhqui calmed, fallen in honor chala:ni (pot to clank or crack) chala:nqui broken (vessel), out of tune (song) chapa:ni (make wet slapping sound) chapa:nqui soaked cocoya (be sick) cocoxqui sick coyo:ni (develop a hole) coyo:nqui perforated, hole cuala:ni (be angry) cuala:nqui angry cua:itl-mani (lie flat) cua:manqui wide at the top and narrow at the bottom cua:itl-xocotl-miqui (die) cua:xocomicqui drunk or insane cuepo:ni (burst, bloom) cuepo:nqui burst, bloomed cuitlatl-zotla:hua (faint) cuitlazotla:uhqui lazy e:lli-te:mi (fill up) e:lte:nqui full of food, surfeited hua:qui (dry) hua:cqui dry huetzi (fall) huetzqui fallen i:xtli-cocoya (be sick) ixcocoxqui sick in the eyes i:xtli-patza:hua (mash, deflate) ixpatza:uhqui blind in an eye i:xtli-petla:hua (uncover) ixpetla:uhqui of uncovered face i:xtli-pina:hua (feel shame) ixpina:uhqui bashful maitl-cocoya (be sick) macocoxqui lame of a hand mali:na (twist) mali:nqui twisted maitl-miqui (die) mamicqui lame of the hands maitl-poztequi (split, break) mapoztecqui lack a hand or hands mo-e:lli-pan-petla:hua (uncover) me:lpanpetla:uhqui bare-chested mo-e:hua (get up, raise) meuhqui out of bed miqui (die) micqui dead mo-dup-no:tza (chat) monono:tzqui converted, reprimanded mo-yo:llo:tl-e:hua (get up, raise) moyo:leuhqui excited or in love mo-yo:llo:tl-mela:hua (straighten) moyo:lmela:uhqui confessed paqui (be happy) pacqui happy pala:ni (rot) palanqui rotten peto:ni (dislocate) petonqui dislocated pina:hua (feel shame) pina:uhqui ashamed poli:hui (perish, disappear) poliuhqui lost pozo:ni (boil) pozonqui angry, irritated poztequi (split, break) poztecqui broken, cut te:ntli-coto:ni (snap, cut) te:ncotonqui nicked, or having a split lip te:mi (fill up) te:nqui full te:ntli-xiti:ni (collapse, break) te:nxitinqui having a frayed edge teotl-miqui (die) teomicqui sacrificed before the idols teotl-tlahto:lli-cuepa (turn) teotlahto:lcuepqui heretic tlahua:na (get drunk) tlahua:nqui drunk tlantli-copi:na (remove) tlancopi:nqui having no teeth or broken teeth tlantli-coto:ni (snap, cut) tlancotonqui having broken teeth or teeth missing tlapa:ni (break) tlapanqui broken tletl-miqui (die) tlemicqui sweltering (person) tzaya:ni (tear, shatter) tzayanqui torn, broken, shattered tzi:ntli-mani (lie flat) tzi:mmanqui wide at the bottom and pointed at the top tzi:ntli-miqui (die) tzi:mmicqui impotent tzi:ntli-poztequi (split, break) tzi:mpoztecqui having a broken back xeli:hui (split) xeliuhqui split xiti:ni (collapse, break) xitinqui fallen or knocked down dup-xiti:ni (collapse, break) xixitinqui fallen or knocked down xocotl-miqui (die) xocomicqui drunk xotl-poztequi (split, break) xopoztecqui having a broken foot xotl-poztequi (split, break) xotzayanqui having a split foot yacatl-poztequi (split, break) yacapoztecqui having a nose cut off yo:llo:tl-ce:hui (calm, cool) yo:lceuhqui calmed, placated yo:llo:tl-dup-cuepa (turn) yo:lcuecuepqui inconstant, changeable yo:llo:tl-dup-cuepa (turn) yo:llo:cuecuepqui inconstant, changeable yo:llo:tl-miqui (die) yo:llo:micqui dull of understanding yo:llo:tl-pozo:ni (boil) yo:llo:pozonqui angry, irritable -tic [-ti + -c] (preterit ending attached to denominative verb) Source Noun "Adjective" English a:calli (canoe) acaltic grooved a:tl (water) atic runny, watery a:to:lli (atole) atoltic soft camohtli (sweet potato) camohtic soft, tender chi:lli (chile pepper) chichiltic red cihua:tl (woman) cihuatic feminine co:ztli (yellow dye) coztic yellow cuaitl-metlatl-pilli cuametlapiltic having a large head etl (bean) etic heavy huitztli (thorn) huitztic sharp pointed i:xtli-tli:lli (soot) i:xtli:ltic dark faced neuctli (honey) neuctic sweet nextli (ash) nextic dark, ash-colored omitl (bone) ohomitic bony and thin pahtli (potion, medicine) pahtic cured piaztli (siphon, tube) piaztic long and thin pilli (child, noble) piltic noble quilitl (greens, herbs) quiltic green te:ntli-tzontli-tli:lli te:ntzontli:ltic black bearded tetl-pitztli (fruitpit) tepitztic hard tetl (stone) tetic hard tlalhuatl (tendon, nerve) tlalhuatic sinewy tli:lli (soot) tli:ltic black tzi:ntli-huitztli (thorn) tzi:nhuitztic pointed at the base xiquipilli (bag) xixiquipiltic swollen yacatl-huictli (hoe) yacahuictic having a long wide nose yacatl-huitztli (thorn) yacahuitztic having a long sharp nose (person) or having a sharp point (thing) yacatl-piaztli (siphon, tube) yacapiaztic having a long straight yahualli (round grass pad) yahualtic round -tic [-ti + -c] (preterit ending attached to denominative verb which is derived from a patientive noun derived from source verb: [source verb > pat. noun > denom. verb] + -c) Source Verb "Adjective" English ala:hua (become slick) alactic slippery caxa:ni (loosen) cacaxactic loose, sparcely woven cama:hua (become ripe) camactic tender, ripe cana:hua (become thin) canactic thin catza:hua (become dirty) catzactic dirty, dirty-colored chama:hua (become chubby) chamactic chubby, filled out chica:hua (be strong) chicactic strong, firm chipa:hua (purify) chichipactic clean, pretty chiya:hua (get s.t. greasy) chiyactic greasy dup-coto:ni (snap, cut) cocotoctic broken, torn apart coto:ni (snap, cut) cotoctic having a missing piece co:tztli-toma:hua (grow fat) cotztotomactic having heavy calves of the legs coyo:ni (develop a hole) coyoctic hole, or having a hole cuahuitl-tila:hua (thicken) cuauhtilactic dense (e.g. cane fence) cuecha:hua (get moist) cuechactic moist, damp cue:chtli-e:hua (become) cuichectic get sooty huapa:hua (gain strength, raise children) huapactic hard, firm i:xtli-cuepo:ni (burst, bloom) ixcuepoctic blind of an eye i:xtli-pitzi:ni (burst) ixpitzi:ctic blind of an eye ihzahuaca (rustle) izahuactic hoarseness mela:hua (straighten) melactic straight nextli-e:hua (become) nexectic dark, ash-colored peya:hua (overflow) peyactic flowed (e.g. water) pitza:hua (make thin) pitzactic slender and long pitza:hua-coyo:ni (develop hole) pitzcoyoctic narrow (e.g. hole) po:ch [po:ctli]-e:hua (become) pochectic smoked up pochi:na (unravel, card) pochictic teased, inflated poxa:hui (soften) poxactic soft, spongy tili:ni (tighten) tilictic bulged, warped tlacua:hua (harden) tlacuactic hard tlantli-copi:na (remove) tlancopictic having broken or missing teeth tlantli-coto:ni (snap, cut) tlancotoctic having broken or missing teeth tli:lli-e:hua (become) tli:le:ctic blackened dup-tzaya:ni (tear, shatter) tzatzayactic broken or cut into many pieces tzili:ni (ring, tinkle) tzilictic having a clear sound, like a bell xotl-dup-patla:hua (widen) xopapatlactic having wide or large feet xotl-dup-tila:hua (thicken) xotitilactic having wide or large feet yacatl-dup-coto:ni (snap, cut) yacacocotoctic having no nose zone:hua (swell, puff up) zonectic soft, spongy, light zotla:hua (faint) zotlactic weak, withered, or without courage From Genaro.Bugarin at Dartmouth.EDU Thu Nov 11 22:48:32 1999 From: Genaro.Bugarin at Dartmouth.EDU (Genaro Bugarin) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:48:32 -0700 Subject: Question Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone know anything about Caballero Aguila? It is suppose to be a Aztec warrier I think, what was the Aztec/Nahuatl name? Thank you in advance Genaro Dartmouth College From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Thu Nov 11 22:51:31 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:51:31 -0700 Subject: Adjective formation Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, R. Joe Campbell wrote: | Key to "Adjective" Formation and Verb Sources | | -c (preterit ending attached to basic verb) | | Source Verb "Adjective" English | | ahhuiya (be fragrant) ahhuiyac fragrant Thanks for the excellent list! I notice that you are using the conventional Spanish orthography. I'm curious, does the letter y in Nahuatl represent the English y sound or the Spanish y sound? These sounds can be distinguished with some practice. For instance, ahhuiya would really be awiya? What are the lengths of the vowels? Did Classical Nahuatl care about lengths of vowels when it came to poetry? If uppercase denotes long vowels, would the word be awiyA or awIya or Awiya? Does a trisyllabic word usually have only one syllable long, the other two short? From tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com Thu Nov 11 23:06:36 1999 From: tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:06:36 -0700 Subject: Adjective formation Message-ID: Read the old emails... I think we have covered a lot of this in the past... -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Montchalin [mailto:mmontcha at OregonVOS.net] Sent: Thursday, November 11, 1999 2:52 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Adjective formation On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, R. Joe Campbell wrote: | Key to "Adjective" Formation and Verb Sources | | -c (preterit ending attached to basic verb) | | Source Verb "Adjective" English | | ahhuiya (be fragrant) ahhuiyac fragrant Thanks for the excellent list! I notice that you are using the conventional Spanish orthography. I'm curious, does the letter y in Nahuatl represent the English y sound or the Spanish y sound? These sounds can be distinguished with some practice. For instance, ahhuiya would really be awiya? What are the lengths of the vowels? Did Classical Nahuatl care about lengths of vowels when it came to poetry? If uppercase denotes long vowels, would the word be awiyA or awIya or Awiya? Does a trisyllabic word usually have only one syllable long, the other two short? From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 12 00:31:51 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:31:51 -0700 Subject: Vowel length in lyrics Message-ID: > Did Classical Nahuatl care about lengths of vowels when it came to poetry? > If uppercase denotes long vowels, would the word be awiyA or awIya or > Awiya? Does a trisyllabic word usually have only one syllable long, the > other two short? To the best of my knowledge, Nahuatl lyrics did not concern themselves with length as a marker of a "foot" eventually creating a line. (Yet another reason to ditch the adj. "Classical") Instead, I argue that line length was determined by the number of stresses (primary and secondary) as in Anglo Saxon strong stress (without the alliteration). These corresponded with the syllabic drum notation in the Cantares and Romances manuscripts. The vocables ohuaya ahuiya etc. were used to fill out the line as other formulae were. I have a very old article with considerably more detail on this in the journal New Scholar 10 from around 1985 (though I wrote the article in 1981). re: trisyllabic words, yes. the stress is on the penultimate syllable (the next to last) in a four syllable word, primary stress (1) is on penultimate with secondary stress (2) on anteantepenult (the one before the one before the next to last) que(2)tzal- co(1)atl, vs. simple que-tzal(1) -li. So word stress shifts as roots are combined just like we do in English with pho(1)to-graph, pho-to(1)-graph-er, and pho-to-graph(1)-ic. Hope this helps. Richard Haly From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Nov 12 01:32:58 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:32:58 -0700 Subject: Adjective formation Message-ID: Thanks Matthew, My comments follow *** On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > | ahhuiya (be fragrant) ahhuiyac fragrant > > Thanks for the excellent list! > > I notice that you are using the conventional Spanish orthography. *** I use the conventional Spanish orthography mostly because my materials and focus of work are from the 16th century. The Franciscans contributed/imposed their way of writing Nahuatl in the way that most people coming into contact with a new language do. They wrote down the new words in their own orthography (having no other) in the way it sounded to them -- we all hear phonemically, not phonetically, anyway -- just as the French did in their contact with indigenous peoples in what is now called the United States. Since Spanish did not have phonemic vowel length or a glottal stop phoneme, their writing system was faulty in that regard, but people have used those "faulty" materials to great advantage since then. In the 17th century Horacio Carochi repaired the system -- and in the 20th, Richard Andrews and Fran Karttunen have done mountainous work to make it available to all of us. I have no emotional reaction against the "modern" / "anthropological" / "k" / "Spanish-rejecting" system that has gained some use in the 20th century. However, as I have said before, I think that it has a few powerful arguments against its use: 1. It splits the available literature into two writing systems. And with all the other problems that we have to deal with, we really don't need to hamper our facility in reading with a little clumsiness in reading the "other" system (whichever one the "other" one is). 2. Most of the people who get into Nahuatl are already familiar and competent with the Spanish spelling system. Why not take advantage of that? I'm > curious, does the letter y in Nahuatl represent the English y sound or the > Spanish y sound? *** Roughly, yes. These sounds can be distinguished with some practice. *** Again, yes. A lot of Spanish students in their first few years would probably argue with this, but the successful ones would not. Some Spanish professors with 40 years of experience would also argue with it, but that isn't evidence against your claim. The English y almost has little right to the name of "consonant" since the aperture is so open and the result so vowel-like, but the shorter Spanish y has a tighter aperture, frequently resulting in light (or non-light) friction (or even stoppage). > For instance, ahhuiya would really be awiya? What are the lengths of the > vowels? ***Not exactly. There is an implementation layer between the orthography of any language and its pronunciation. In a Carochi-affected orthography which fails to mark vowel length (such as the one that I frequently use), /w/ is spelled 'hu' or 'uh' depending on whether it is at the beginning of a syllable or at the end, respectively. And the glottal stop consonant is always written 'h', so 'hhu' is not [w], but [h] followed by [w]: [hw], something that is dying out among younger speakers of American speakers who don't distinguish "whale" and "wail". Further, although a given word might have the underlying (read "systematic" or even "mental") contrast between /ia/ and /iya/ (parallel to /oa/ and /ohua/) the presence or absence of the [y] or [w] was never contrastive -- nor is it in modern dialects. /iya/ was *normally* pronounced [ia], so "ahhuiya" was [ahwi'a] (' indicates stress). > > Did Classical Nahuatl care about lengths of vowels when it came to poetry? > If uppercase denotes long vowels, would the word be awiyA or awIya or > Awiya? Does a trisyllabic word usually have only one syllable long, the > other two short? > *** I see that Richard has ably answered this part . Best regards, Joe From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Nov 12 07:34:01 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 00:34:01 -0700 Subject: Patientive Nouns Message-ID: Leonel, Here is the other list I promised -- patientive nouns. Ask Mr. Gael what he thinks of them. Best regards, Joe Key to Patientive Nouns and Sources Source Verb Patientive Noun English a:na tlaa:ntli s.t. set apart, or a person who is led ahci, caqui tlaahcica:cactli s.t. well understood ca:hua tlaca:uhtli s.t. which is left or abandoned cactli, copi:na tlacaccopi:ntli person or horse that lost a shoe calli, mela:hua calmelactli large long room or corridor cana:hua tlacana:uhtli s.t. which is trimmed and made thin caxa:hua tlacaxa:uhtli s.t. weakened celia tlaceli:lli s.t. which is received chama:hua tlachahchama:uhtli s.o. flattered chaya:hua tlachaya:uhtli s.t. scattered chi:hua tlachi:hualli s.t. which is made or done chi:hua tlachi:uhtli s.t. which is made or done chica:hua tlachica:hualli s.t. which is strengthened chica:hua tlachica:uhtli s.t. fortified chicoihtoa tlachicoihto:lli slander chinoa tlachino:lli s.t. which is burned chipa:hua tlachipa:hualli s.t. which is cleansed, purified chipa:hua tlachipa:uhtli s.t. purified or clean co:hua tlaco:hualli s.t. bought, purchase co:hua tlaco:uhtli s.t. bought cochte:ca tlacochte:ctli s.o. who is put to sleep cochte:ca tlacohcochte:ctli a woman who is seduced cochtla:za tlacochtla:ztli s.o. who is put to sleep by a spell coto:na cotoctli piece (e.g., of bread) coto:na tlacoto:ntli s.t. cut off coto:na tlacoto:ntli s.t. which is trimmed or cut off coya:hua tlacoya:uhtli s.t. widened coyo:ni tlacoyoctli hole cuepa tlacuepalli s.t. which is turned upside down cuepa tlacueptli s.t. returned or turned e:catl, peya:hui e:capeyactli cool and gentle breeze huahuana tlahuahuantli s.t. which is marked, striped huapa:hua tlahuapa:uhtli s.t. which is supported or strengthened hui:ca tlahui:ctli s.t. carried to another place, fetched hui:tequi tlahui:tectli s.t. which is beaten huito:mi tlahuito:ntli s.t. torn down, destroyed i:xtli, patza:hua tlai:xpatza:uhtli person whose eye is put out i:xtli, poya:hua tlai:xpoya:uhtli s.o. dazzled or deceived ichpa:na ochpa:ntli wide road ichtequi ichtectli s.t. stolen ihcuiloa tlahcuilo:lli s.t. written ihya:na tlaihya:ntli s.t. hidden ilna:miqui tlalna:mictli s.t. which is remembered iltequi tlaltectli sip, s.t. which is sipped ma:itl, capani ma:capactli snap of the fingers ma:no:tza tlama:no:tztli s.o. who is beckoned ma:tope:hua tlama:tope:uhtli s.t. which is pushed with one's hand ma:ya:hua tlama:ya:uhtli s.t. which is thrown mahce:hua tlamahce:uhtli spoils, or s.t. which is deserved mali:na tlamali:ntli s.t. twisted mela:hua tlamela:uhtli s.t. explained or straightened out moya:hua tlamohmoya:uhtli s.t. scattered or put to flight na:miqui na:mictli married person, spouse na:moya tlana:moxtli s.t. stolen  Key to Patientive Nouns and Sources [p. 2] Source Verb Patientive Noun English namaca tlanamactli s.t. sold pa:ca tlapa:ctli laundry, s.t. washed pa:ca tlapa:ctli s.t. washed pa:huaci tlapa:huaxtli s.t. which is cooked pahmaca tlapahmactli s.t. purged with medicine patla:hua tlapatla:uhtli s.t. widened tetl, patla:hua tepatlactli wide flat stone pehpena tlapehpentli s.t. which is chosen peya:hua tlapehpeya:uhtli measure which is full of liquid pi:qui tlapi:ctli s.t. created or invented pitza:hua tlapitza:uhtli s.t. which trimmed, made thin pitza:hua pitzactli s.t. slender and long po:che:hua tlapo:che:uhtli s.t. smoked up po:hua tlapo:uhtli s.t. counted pochi:na tlapochi:ntli s.t. which is carded pohpo:hua tlapohpo:uhtli s.t. cleaned or scrubbed poztequi poztectli s.t. broken poztequi tlapoztectli s.t. which is broken quechtequi tlaquechtectli s.o. who is beheaded tataca tlatatactli s.t. dug up, an excavation or tomb te:ca tlate:ctli s.t. poured out on a flat surface te:mi tlatete:ntli ground which is paved te:nna:miqui tlate:na:mictli s.o. who is kissed on the mouth te:ntli, tomahua te:ntomactli s.o. with thick lips teci textli flour tepe:hua tlatepe:uhtli s.t. scattered tequi tlatectli s.t. which is cut tetl, poxa:hua tepoxactli light stone, pumice tia:miqui tia:mictli merchandise tla:lcopi:na tlatla:lcopi:ntli groundwork for a building tla:za tlatla:xtli s.t. thrown or dropped tlalli, huaqui tla:lhua:ctli island or dry land tlapa:na tetlapactli flagstone tlapa:na tlatlapa:ntli s.t. which is broken tlazoa tlazohtli s.t. precious tli:lli, chapa:ni tli:lchapactli ink blot to:ca tlato:ctli s.t. which is buried to:ca to:ctli young stalk of corn to:mi toto:ntli frayed cloth toma:hua tlatoma:uhtli grease or s.t. fattened toxoma tlatoxo:ntli s.t. which is scraped tzaya:na tlatzaya:ntli fragment, piece of s.t. tzotzo:na tlatzotzo:ntli drum, or a person beaten xi:ma tlaxi:ntli s.t. scraped or skinned xi:pe:hua tlaxi:pe:uhtli s.t. which is peeled xitini a:tepe:tena:nxitictli door of a rampart or city wall xole:hua tlaxole:uhtli s.t. scraped or hurt yo:coya tlayo:coxtli s.t. created or invented yo:coya tlayo:coyalli invention, s.t. which is created yohua tlayohualli darkness za:loa tlaza:lo:lli s.t. which is glued to s.t. zaca tlazazactli s.t. which is carried zo:hua tlazo:uhtli s.t. unfolded or spread out zotla:hua tlazotla:uhtli s.t. weakened patientive nouns exercise 01 1. calmelactli 1. large long room or corridor 2. tlaa:ntli 2. s.t. weakened 3. tlaahcica:cactli 3. s.t. which is received 4. tlaca:uhtli 4. s.t. which is trimmed and made thin 5. tlacaccopi:ntli 5. person or horse that lost a shoe 6. tlacana:uhtli 6. s.t. set apart, or a person who is led 7. tlacaxa:uhtli 7. s.t. well understood 8. tlaceli:lli 8. s.t. which is left or abandoned patientive nouns exercise 02 1. tlachahchama:uhtli 1. s.o. flattered 2. tlachaya:uhtli 2. s.t. scattered 3. tlachi:hualli 3. s.t. which is made or done 4. tlachi:uhtli 4. s.t. which is made or done 5. tlachica:hualli 5. s.t. which is strengthened 6. tlachica:uhtli 6. s.t. fortified 7. tlachicoihto:lli 7. s.t. which is burned 8. tlachino:lli 8. slander patientive nouns exercise 03 1. cotoctli 1. piece (e.g., of bread) 2. tlachipa:hualli 2. s.o. who is put to sleep by a spell 3. tlachipa:uhtli 3. a woman who is seduced 4. tlaco:hualli 4. s.o. who is put to sleep 5. tlaco:uhtli 5. s.t. bought 6. tlacochte:ctli 6. s.t. bought, purchase 7. tlacochtla:ztli 7. s.t. purified or clean 8. tlacohcochte:ctli 8. s.t. which is cleansed, purified patientive nouns exercise 04 1. e:capeyactli 1. cool and gentle breeze 2. tlacoto:ntli 2. hole 3. tlacoto:ntli 3. s.t. cut off 4. tlacoya:uhtli 4. s.t. returned or turned 5. tlacoyoctli 5. s.t. which is trimmed or cut off 6. tlacuepalli 6. s.t. which is turned upside down 7. tlacueptli 7. s.t. widened 8. tlahuahuantli 8. s.t. which is marked, striped patientive nouns exercise 05 1. ichtectli 1. person whose eye is put out 2. ochpa:ntli 2. s.o. dazzled or deceived 3. tlahuapa:uhtli 3. s.t. carried to another place, fetched 4. tlahui:ctli 4. s.t. torn down, destroyed 5. tlahui:tectli 5. s.t. which is beaten 6. tlahuito:ntli 6. s.t. which is supported or strengthened 7. tlai:xpatza:uhtli 7. s.t. stolen 8. tlai:xpoya:uhtli 8. wide road  patientive nouns exercise 06 1. ma:capactli 1. s.t. which is pushed with one's hand 2. tlahcuilo:lli 2. s.t. which is thrown 3. tlaihya:ntli 3. s.o. who is beckoned 4. tlalna:mictli 4. s.t. hidden 5. tlaltectli 5. s.t. which is remembered 6. tlama:no:tztli 6. s.t. written 7. tlama:tope:uhtli 7. sip, s.t. which is sipped 8. tlama:ya:uhtli 8. snap of the fingers patientive nouns exercise 07 1. na:mictli 1. married person, spouse 2. tlamahce:uhtli 2. s.t. explained or straightened out 3. tlamali:ntli 3. s.t. scattered or put to flight 4. tlamela:uhtli 4. s.t. stolen 5. tlamohmoya:uhtli 5. s.t. twisted 6. tlana:moxtli 6. spoils, or s.t. which is deserved 7. tlanamactli 7. laundry, s.t. washed 8. tlapa:ctli 8. s.t. sold patientive nouns exercise 08 1. tepatlactli 1. measure which is full of liquid 2. tlapa:ctli 2. s.t. created or invented 3. tlapa:huaxtli 3. s.t. which is chosen 4. tlapahmactli 4. s.t. purged with medicine 5. tlapatla:uhtli 5. s.t. washed 6. tlapehpentli 6. s.t. which is cooked 7. tlapehpeya:uhtli 7. s.t. widened 8. tlapi:ctli 8. wide flat stone patientive nouns exercise 09 1. pitzactli 1. s.t. counted 2. poztectli 2. s.t. slender and long 3. tlapitza:uhtli 3. s.t. smoked up 4. tlapo:che:uhtli 4. s.t. which is carded 5. tlapo:uhtli 5. s.t. which trimmed, made thin 6. tlapochi:ntli 6. s.t. broken 7. tlapohpo:uhtli 7. s.t. cleaned or scrubbed 8. tlapoztectli 8. s.t. which is broken patientive nouns exercise 10 1. te:ntomactli 1. flour 2. textli 2. s.o. who is kissed on the mouth 3. tlaquechtectli 3. s.o. with thick lips 4. tlatatactli 4. s.t. scattered 5. tlate:ctli 5. ground which is paved 6. tlate:na:mictli 6. s.o. who is beheaded 7. tlatepe:uhtli 7. s.t. dug up, an excavation or tomb 8. tlatete:ntli 8. s.t. poured out on a flat surface  patientive nouns exercise 11 1. tepoxactli 1. flagstone 2. tetlapactli 2. groundwork for a building 3. tia:mictli 3. island or dry land 4. tla:lhua:ctli 4. merchandise 5. tlatectli 5. s.t. thrown or dropped 6. tlatla:lcopi:ntli 6. s.t. which is broken 7. tlatla:xtli 7. light stone, pumice 8. tlatlapa:ntli 8. s.t. which is cut patientive nouns exercise 12 1. tlato:ctli 1. fragment, piece of s.t. 2. tlatoma:uhtli 2. frayed cloth 3. tlatoxo:ntli 3. grease or s.t. fattened 4. tlatzaya:ntli 4. s.t. which is buried 5. tlazohtli 5. s.t. which is scraped 6. tli:lchapactli 6. young stalk of corn 7. to:ctli 7. ink blot 8. toto:ntli 8. s.t. precious patientive nouns exercise 13 1. a:tepe:tena:nxitictli 1. drum, or a person beaten 2. tlatzotzo:ntli 2. s.t. scraped or skinned 3. tlaxi:ntli 3. darkness 4. tlaxi:pe:uhtli 4. door of a rampart or city wall 5. tlaxole:uhtli 5. invention, s.t. which is created 6. tlayo:coxtli 6. s.t. created or invented 7. tlayo:coyalli 7. s.t. scraped or hurt 8. tlayohualli 8. s.t. which is peeled patientive nouns exercise 14 1. tlaza:lo:lli 1. s.t. unfolded or spread out 2. tlazazactli 2. s.t. weakened 3. tlazo:uhtli 3. s.t. which is carried 4. tlazotla:uhtli 4. s.t. which is glued to s.t. From leonelhermida at netc.pt Sun Nov 14 12:07:01 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 05:07:01 -0700 Subject: some doubts Message-ID: 1. in oiuh mito cecni, zan ye no iuh mochihuaya (as it is told elsewhere, so likewise was it done) o-iuh mito = iuh o-mihtoh ? Is it common to have the preterit mark o- 'anticipated'? Or is there any reason I don't know? 2. in momazacoahuiani, intla elti, iciuhca mimiqui (he who partakes of the mazacoatl, if aggressive, quickly dies) is 'mazacoatl' some kind of venomous snake? is it the 'snake(?)' which is aggressive? is mimiqui an 'intensive' of miqui? 3. ihuan in aquin mimiqui, in quin opeuh coni (and he who has epilepsy, after it has just begun, drinks it) now 'mimiqui' has another meaning; what are the shades of meaning expressed by reduplication of the verb? would it be better *tlaconi? *quiconi? or is 'coni' an 'hopeless' intransitive? 4. Here I'd welcome a litteral translation (as far as possible): "Manca in atl oncan temia in cocoa ihuan in cueyame ihuan in yehuantin motenehua Mazateca oncan quintoloaya in cocoa zan yoyoltihuia". is 'manca' a pluperfect of 'mani' (put)? does 'oncan' mean 'there'? or has other meaning? is temia the causative of 'temi'= fill up ? Now, there must have been some tank (?) where had been put water (manca in atl) and that was filled up (temia) with snakes and frogs (in cocoa ihuan in cueyame); and then the people called Mazateca (in yehuantin motenehua Mazateca) 'lowered the snakes down' (quintoloaya) = made them disappear (?) or = swallowed them down (?) alive (??) ('yoli' is to live; is 'yoyoltihuia' = as they were alive?) Perhaps 2 weeks from now these doubts would be no more for I've ordered F. Karttunen & J. Campbell's monumental "Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar" but I cannot wait that much... Thanks for the help. Kind regards, Leonel From karttu at nantucket.net Sun Nov 14 21:48:57 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 14:48:57 -0700 Subject: some doubts Message-ID: You seem to be reading Sahagun's Primeros memoriales, the section about the water-tamale festival. One of the activities at the festival was that people designated/costumed as "Mazatecs" pulled live snakes and frogs from a basin of water and put them into their mouths. This is illustrated with a large painting in the PM. The University of Oklahoma Press has published a color facsimile of the complete manuscript and in a separate volume a translation of the text by Thelma Sullivan with annotations by a number of of other major scholars of the Aztec world. ---------- >From: Leonel Hermida >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: some doubts >Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999, 7:08 AM > > 1. in oiuh mito cecni, zan ye no iuh mochihuaya > (as it is told elsewhere, so likewise was it done) > > o-iuh mito = iuh o-mihtoh ? Is it common to have the preterit mark o- > 'anticipated'? Or is there any reason I don't know? The prefix o- is usually found with verbs in the preterite, but its function is to state that something happened (or will have happened) before some other event. It can be paired with the future tense if something in the future will happen only after something else has happened. So o- is more properly called the antecessive prefix and not thought of as just a redundant preterite marker. Once an o- has appeared in a clause or series of clauses, it doesn't have to be repeated on every verb. > > 2. in momazacoahuiani, intla elti, iciuhca mimiqui > (he who partakes of the mazacoatl, if aggressive, quickly dies) > > is 'mazacoatl' some kind of venomous snake? It usually refers to a boa constructor, i.e., a snake big enough to strangle a deer. > is it the 'snake(?)' which is aggressive? Elti is "careful" rather than "aggressive." I would think the text would read "intlaca" rather than "intla" and the sense would be that whoever handles a mazacoatl, if he isn't careful, will be in mortal danger. > is mimiqui an 'intensive' of miqui? Probably distributive: dying here a little and there a little. > > 3. ihuan in aquin mimiqui, in quin opeuh coni > (and he who has epilepsy, after it has just begun, drinks it) > > now 'mimiqui' has another meaning; what are the shades of > meaning expressed by reduplication of the verb? Same thing, I think. An epileptic loses consciousness following seizures. He dies a little here and dies a little there. > would it be better *tlaconi? *quiconi? or is 'coni' an 'hopeless' > intransitive? The "i" is the transitive verb meaning 'to drink something'. It's so minimal in form that it usually takes the directional on- prefix, apparently just to give it some weight. The c- preceeding on-i is the third person singular specific object prefix, which would have the form qui- if it preceded a verb or a verbal prefix beginning with a consonant. So literally coni is "(he)-it-drinks." If you want to say "He drinks (nonspecific, unspecified stuff)" you'd use tla-i. > > 4. Here I'd welcome a litteral translation (as far as possible): > > "Manca in atl oncan temia in cocoa ihuan in cueyame > ihuan in yehuantin motenehua Mazateca oncan quintoloaya > in cocoa zan yoyoltihuia". > > is 'manca' a pluperfect of 'mani' (put)? > does 'oncan' mean 'there'? or has other meaning? > is temia the causative of 'temi'= fill up ? > > Now, there must have been some tank (?) where had been > put water (manca in atl) and that was filled up (temia) with > snakes and frogs (in cocoa ihuan in cueyame); and then the > people called Mazateca (in yehuantin motenehua Mazateca) > 'lowered the snakes down' (quintoloaya) = made them > disappear (?) or = swallowed them down (?) alive (??) > ('yoli' is to live; is 'yoyoltihuia' = as they were alive?) You should see the illustration in PM. The "Mazatecah" are dancing around with tails of live snakes hanging out of their mouths. It sure beats swallowing goldfish! > From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Nov 15 05:58:35 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 22:58:35 -0700 Subject: some doubts Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Nov 1999, Leonel Hermida wrote: > 4. Here I'd welcome a litteral translation (as far as possible): >=20 > "Manca in atl oncan temia in cocoa ihuan in cueyame > ihuan in yehuantin motenehua Mazateca oncan quintoloaya > in cocoa zan yoyoltihuia". >=20 > is 'manca' a pluperfect of 'mani' (put)? > does 'oncan' mean 'there'? or has other meaning? > is temia the causative of 'temi'=3D fill up ? I think you're right on this -- a pluperfect of "mani", used as a simple past (which is the case with a few other Nahuatl verbs). A good way to think of the semantic content of "mani" is 'lie flat and spread out like a puddle of water'; the causative form "mana" is connected with laying out offerings and is generalized as 'put'. =20 Yes on "oncan" 'there'. "temia" is the imperfect (temi-ya) -- intransitive and with the unpronounced /y/. Best regards, Joe As they say in the commercials, "We'll be right back, but in the meantime, here are all the "manca" occurrences in the FC. [see next message] =20 manca** =20 1. ca miec tlamantli yaoyotl, nican *manca*, in nueva espa=A4a, in oc ipan tlateotoquiliztli: miecpa, mayanaloya, miecpa cocoliztli momanaya, ic micohuaya.. there were many wars in new spain when there still was idolatry; frequent famine, frequent pestilence were widespread; thus there was dying. (b.1 f.4 p.65).=20 =20 2. auh no yehuanti, in iyaohuan altepetl, tlatepotzca, inin ca *manca* teoatl, tlachinolli, quimonnotzaya ichtaca, hualichtacacalaquia, in icohuahuan moteuczoma: in nonohualca, cozcateca, cempoalteca, mecateca,. and also from cities which were his enemies, from beyond [the mountains] those with which there was war, moctezuma secretly, summoned, secretly admitted as his guests the nonoalca, the cozcateca, the cempoallans, the mecateca. (b.2 f.1 p.55).=20 =20 3. auh in oacito atenco, in innealtiaya tlamacazque: nauhcampa in *manca* in ayauhcalli,. and when they went reaching the water's edge, the offering priests' bathing place, the mist houses were at the cardinal points. (b.2 f.4 p.81).=20 =20 4. in oncan maltiaya in, tlanepantla *manca* in cuenmantli:. where they bathed, in the midst of things were poles. (b.2 f.4 p.82).=20 =20 5. ixpan *manca* in atl,. before it was [a pool of] water. (b.2 f.11 p.177).=20 =20 6. auh nehuan *manca* in ical catca tlaloc,. and with it was the house of tlaloc. (b.2 f.11 p.178).=20 =20 7. huel nehuan *manca*, huel netech zaliuhtimanca:. they were indeed together; they were indeed joined to each other. (b.2 f.11 p.178).=20 =20 8. auh in icpac cecentetl teocalli, in icpac *manca* calli:. and at the top of each was a temple; at the top was a house. (b.2 f.11 p.178).=20 =20 9. in aquin ye tlatoz, zan oncan *manca* in copalli xicaltica:. for whoever already was to speak, just there lay the incense in a gourd vessel. (b.2 f.12 p.195).=20 =20 10. ca nohuiyan cecentetl *manca*, in cihuateocalli, cecentlaxilacalpan oncan in omaxac,. for in every single place stood a temple of goddesses, in each neighborhood, there at crossroads. (b.4 f.4 p.41).=20 =20 11. in cuappetlapan, in ocelopetlapan oyeco, in oimmac *manca* in cuappiaztli, in cuauhxicalli, in ocuauhyacanque, in ocatlitique in tonatiuh in tlalteuctli:. they came exercising military command; in their hands rested the eagle tube, the eagle vessel; they led the eagle warriors; they provided drink for the sun, for tlaltecutli. (b.6 f.9 p.106).=20 =20 12. ihuan ipan mochiuh in huei mayanaliztli, nauhxihuitl in *manca*. and in his reign there came a great famine, which spread over the land for four years. (b.8 f.1 p.2).=20 =20 13. ipan mochiuh mayanaliztli oxihuitl in *manca* in aocmo quiahuia,. ln his reign there came a famine; for two years it spread over the land, during which it rained no more. (b.8 f.1 p.3).=20 =20 14. ihuan ipan mochiuh, onteme cuacuauhti cuauhcalco *manca* no manca in oncan tlatilolco. and in his time it happened that two eagles were in separate wooden cages there in tlatilulco. (b.8 f.1 p.8).=20 =20 15. ihuan ipan mochiuh, onteme cuacuauhti cuauhcalco manca no *manca* in oncan tlatilolco. and in his time it happened that two eagles were in separate wooden cages there in tlatilulco. (b.8 f.1 p.8).=20 =20 16. auh in itech tlachmatl, ontetl tlachtemalacatl *manca*,. and on the walls were two stone, ball court rings. (b.8 f.2 p.29).=20 =20 17. in quimocuitlahuiaya, in ipan tlatoaya in tianquiztli: ihuan ixquich tlanamactli, icecentlamantli tlanamactli, tiamictli, ipan *manca*,. they cared for, and attended to, the market place and all and each of the things sold---the merchandise which was there. (b.8 f.4 p.67).=20 =20 18. no ihuan oncatca, in tlayacanque in ipan *manca* acacuahuitl, acaiyetl, iyetlalli, huel ocotzoyo, ihuan xochiocotzotl,. and also there were proprietors among whom were spread out smoking tubes, pipes, and cigars, [some] quite resinous and aromatic; (b.8 f.4 p.69).=20 =20 19. ihuan teocuitlatl in ixcuatechimal ixcuac *manca*, ihuan inacazpipilol teocuitlatl,. and gold was his forehead disc, which rested on his brow; and his ear pendants were of gold. (b.9 f.6 p.79).=20 =20 20. ca chicomen *manca* in incalpolco, inic quinmanaya inixiptlahuan amanteca:. for seven were arranged in their calpulli when the inhabitants of amantlan arranged their images. (b.9 f.6 p.83).=20 =20 21. in yehuantin, i, amanteca in incalpol, in incalmecauh: zan monetechanaya onteixtin *manca* in incalpol pochteca:. the calpulli temple [and] the priestshouse of these inhabitants of amantlan extended by, were paired together with, the calpulli temple of the merchants. (b.9 f.7 p.88).=20 =20 22. no ihui in inteohuan nehuan *manca* quinnehuanmanaya, quimomemanaya in itoca iyacateuctli ihuan coyotl inahual.. likewise their gods were placed together; they put together, placed in twofold division, those named yacatecutli and coyotl inaual; (b.9 f.7 p.88).=20 =20 23. calli oncan *manca*.. houses are there. (b.11 f.24 p.252).=20 =20 24. auh in hueca *manca*, in tehuecapahuiti manca amo micque.. and those who remained at a distance, those who remained going at a distance, did not die. (b.12 f.5 p.78).=20 =20 25. auh in hueca manca, in tehuecapahuiti *manca* amo micque.. and those who remained at a distance, those who remained going at a distance, did not die. (b.12 f.5 p.78).=20 =20 26. ihcuac in *manca* inin totomoniliztli, huel epoalilhuitl, epoaltonal in quiz in cuetlan, in neemachoc, in yolihuac: ie chalcopa huatztia in totomoniliztli,. at this time this plague prevailed indeed sixty days --sixty day-signs --when it ended, when it diminished; when it was realized, when there was reviving, the plague was already going toward chalco. (b.12 f.6 p.82).=20 =20 27. huel cemilhuitl in *manca* yaoyotl.. Indeed all day did the battle take place. (b.12 f.8 p.116).=20 From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Nov 15 06:14:07 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 23:14:07 -0700 Subject: For mature audiences (was: some doubts) Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Nov 1999, Leonel Hermida wrote: > is 'mazacoatl' some kind of venomous snake? (Sorry about my funny double cross character for c cedilla) The only references to "mazacoatl" that I found in the Florentine Codex= =20 were the following: =20 mazacoatl** =20 1. no ihuan quiximati, in mitoa: *mazacoatl*,. and also they knew of the so-called ma=87acoatl. (b.10 f.10 p.171).=20 =20 momazacoahuiani** =20 2. in *momazacoahuiani*, intla elti, iciuhca mimiqui:. he who partaketh of the ma=87acoatl, if aggressive, quickly dieth. (b.6 f.10 p.126).=20 ******* Molina reports only one entry for "mazacoatl" in each of his three dictionaries: 'serpent, snake', but I thought that I recalled another use -- an herb or something else that could ingested. So I checked Martin de la Cruz, _Libellus de Medicinalibus Indorum Herbis_ (given extra notoriety by the apparent rip-off of Emily Walcott Emmartt's edition of it by a person whose identity my discretion prevents me from mentioning). --No result.=20 So I checked Maximino Martinez' _Catalogo de nombres vulgares y=20 cientificos de plantas mexicanas_ with negative results too. Negative also= on=20 Louise Schoenhals' _A Spanish-English Glossary of Mexican Flora and Fauna i= n=20 the plants section, but in the reptiles section, she gives it as 'boa=20 constrictor'. But I *still* thought I remembered an allusion to it as something like = an=20 herb which could be ingested, so I went back to the Florentine Codex, where= ,=20 in Book 6, I found the following: =20 Florentine Codex, Book 6, pp. 125-126 (end of this quote marked with ************) 1. inin quil nepapacyo, cequi temeyalti in quitecualtia in quitetolol= tia, in ahzo quiteitia cihuatlahueliloque in ahuianime, inic tlaelpaquiznequi: this, it is said, is pleasurable; one [kind] causeth one to discharge one's fluid when the whores, the harlots cause one to eat it, swallow it, or drink it to provoke lewdness. =20 2. inin ca teohuitili, auh nel micoani: ipampa ca tepatzcac, this endangereth one; and it is very deadly because one is dried up. =20 3. ca tlami in tezzo, in totlapallo, in tochiahuaca ca tayo tlami, tlami in oxiotl, in ocotzoyotl: for it useth up our blood, our color, our oils; it useth up our moisture; it useth up the turpentine, the resin. =20 4. iuh mitoa in ***momazacohuahuia*** quixyeyecoa, zan ixquich qui, so, it is said, he who partaketh of the ma=87acoatl is moderate, drinketh it moderately. =20 5. in ahzo nahui, macuilli cihuatl quinamiquiz, manozo matlactli: [if immoderate,] he will have carnal access to perhaps four, five, perhaps ten women. =20 6. auh inin cihua, amo zan ceceppa in intech aci: ahzo quen nanappa, mamacuilpa: and to these women he hath access not only once with each one, but four or five times with each one, more or less. =20 7. auh ayac huecahua and no one endureth. =20 8. in momazacoahuiani, intla elti, iciuhca mimiqui: he who partaketh of the ma=87acoatl, if aggressive, quickly dieth. =20 9. inic miqui huel huaaqui, huel malichahui, huel pilini, huel quequetotztzitzin mochihua, ixmalichpipil: as he dieth he becometh well dried up, veritably a little lock of hair, having long tufts of hair, locks of hair on the face. =20 10. ahzo quin piltontli, ac ace quexquichcahuitia, ahzo quin achi quihualmana in tonatiuh ac ace tle quitoquilia in toteucyo, perhaps he had been a mere child; perhaps he endureth for some time; perhaps he continueth in the service of our lord. =20 11. ye cuele za ixhuehuenton, za mamalichpil, quequetzopil, iztalecpil, yacacuitlapilopil, quechhuihuichpil: za pipilcac in inacayo, iciuhca onmiqui. eventually he is only little old eyes, only little locks of hair, tufts of hair, very white, nasal mucus hanging, trembling of neck; his flesh only hangeth in wrinkles; he quickly dieth. 12. huel ximopia nopiltze: guard thyself well, o my son. =20 13. at aca itla mitzmaca in cualoni, in ihuani: perhaps someone giveth thee something to be eaten, to be drunk. =20 14. intla itech tichicoyolloa, ma oc ye achto coni, ma oc ye achto concua, in tlein mitzmaca: if thou art suspicious of him, let him eat first, let him drink first that which he giveth thee. =20 15. tle ticmati pay attention. =20 16. xonmimattinemi in tlalticpac, ca oticcac in zan tlanepantlacayotl monequi. continue with caution on earth, for thou hast heard that moderation is necessary." =20 ************ Footnote #6 on page 125 contains the following: Ma=87acoatl: cf. Dibble and Anderson, _Florentine Codex_, Book XI, "Earthly Things," p. 80. And on page 80 is the following text: *** 1. mazacohuatl: ma=87acoatl =20 2. tepiton cuacuahue, catzactontli: amo tecuani, amo cueche: it is small, horned, blackish; not poisonous; without rattles. =20 3. yehuatl inic momeyaltia in aquique cenca cihuanequini, zan conichiqui in coni, zan imixtlama in ome ei cihuatl quinamiquiz they who are much given to women, in order to produce semen, just scrape and drink it [in water]; they just capture the eye of two [or] three women they are about to meet. =20 4. in aquin ommotototza in coni, zan cen tlacuauhtilia, ihuan zan cenquizticac in ixinach, ihuan yoyommiqui. he who drinks too much continually erects his virile member and constantly ejects his semen, and dies of lasciviousness. =20 *** 5. tlalmazacohuatl: tlalma=87acoatl =20 6. in tonayan nemi, it lives in the hot lands. =20 7. itoca: tzompilacahuaztli, it is called tzompilacauaztli. =20 8. tliltontli, tzotlactontli, alactontli it is small and black, small and glistening, slippery. =20 9. cacallo atecocollo. it has a shell, a sea-shell. =20 10. inic mitoa tlalmazacohuatl: ca zan nohuian, in milpan nemi: auh inic mazatl itech onca, ca cuacuauhtone. it is called tlalma=87acoatl because it dwells everywhere in the maize fields; and from deer, because it has small horns. =20 11. inin ihcuac neci in quiahui. this one appears when it rains. =20 12. inic nenemi, in oncan quiza iuhquin tizaayotl, iuhquinma tzauctli quinoquitiuh. as it goes about, when it emerges, there it goes exuding as it were a varnish liquid, like glue. =20 13. in aquin quiz i: intla miec qui, no yoyommiqui, ihuan ayotlami: he who drinks this [in an infusion], if he drinks much of it, also dies of lasciviousness, and his moisture ends. =20 14. ic miquiz, iccen ic cocolizquiz. so he will die; he will finally sicken because of it. =20 So it wasn't an herb. Thanks anyway, Emily and Maximino. Best regards, Joe From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Nov 15 14:35:47 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 07:35:47 -0700 Subject: For mature audiences (was: some doubts) Message-ID: I'm sorry for the messy appearance of my prior "send" on this message. I have consulted with the computer center repeatedly and extensively about the "=20", which my batch processing language puts out. However, even my *word processor* did the same thing last night, so I have managed to acquire a cleaned up copy, which should be easier to read. (I am now crossing my fingers, but I don't know if my e-mail will respond to that little-known piece of computer science.) On Sun, 14 Nov 1999, Leonel Hermida wrote: > is 'mazacoatl' some kind of venomous snake? The only references to "mazacoatl" that I found in the Florentine Codex were the following: mazacoatl** 1. no ihuan quiximati, in mitoa: *mazacoatl*,. and also they knew of the so-called mazacoatl. (b.10 f.10 p.171). momazacoahuiani** 2. in *momazacoahuiani*, intla elti, iciuhca mimiqui:. he who partaketh of the mazacoatl, if aggressive, quickly dieth. (b.6 f.10 p.126). ******* Molina reports only one entry for "mazacoatl" in each of his three dictionaries: 'serpent, snake', but I thought that I recalled another use -- an herb or something else that could ingested. So I checked Martin de la Cruz, _Libellus de Medicinalibus Indorum Herbis_ (given extra notoriety by the apparent rip-off of Emily Walcott Emmartt's edition of it by a person whose identity my discretion prevents me from mentioning). --No result. So I checked Maximino Martinez' _Catalogo de nombres vulgares y cientificos de plantas mexicanas_ with negative results too. Negative also on Louise Schoenhals' _A Spanish-English Glossary of Mexican Flora and Fauna in the plants section, but in the reptiles section, she gives it as 'boa constrictor'. But I *still* thought I remembered an allusion to it as something like an herb which could be ingested, so I went back to the Florentine Codex, where, in Book 6, I found the following: Florentine Codex, Book 6, pp. 125-126 (end of this quote marked with ************) 1. inin quil nepapacyo, cequi temeyalti in quitecualtia in quitetololtia, in ahzo quiteitia cihuatlahueliloque in ahuianime, inic tlaelpaquiznequi: this, it is said, is pleasurable; one [kind] causeth one to discharge one's fluid when the whores, the harlots cause one to eat it, swallow it, or drink it to provoke lewdness. 2. inin ca teohuitili, auh nel micoani: ipampa ca tepatzcac, this endangereth one; and it is very deadly because one is dried up. 3. ca tlami in tezzo, in totlapallo, in tochiahuaca ca tayo tlami, tlami in oxiotl, in ocotzoyotl: for it useth up our blood, our color, our oils; it useth up our moisture; it useth up the turpentine, the resin. 4. iuh mitoa in ***momazacohuahuia*** quixyeyecoa, zan ixquich qui, so, it is said, he who partaketh of the mazacoatl is moderate, drinketh it moderately. 5. in ahzo nahui, macuilli cihuatl quinamiquiz, manozo matlactli: [if immoderate,] he will have carnal access to perhaps four, five, perhaps ten women. 6. auh inin cihua, amo zan ceceppa in intech aci: ahzo quen nanappa, mamacuilpa: and to these women he hath access not only once with each one, but four or five times with each one, more or less. 7. auh ayac huecahua and no one endureth. 8. in momazacoahuiani, intla elti, iciuhca mimiqui: he who partaketh of the mazacoatl, if aggressive, quickly dieth. 9. inic miqui huel huaaqui, huel malichahui, huel pilini, huel quequetotztzitzin mochihua, ixmalichpipil: as he dieth he becometh well dried up, veritably a little lock of hair, having long tufts of hair, locks of hair on the face. 10. ahzo quin piltontli, ac ace quexquichcahuitia, ahzo quin achi quihualmana in tonatiuh ac ace tle quitoquilia in toteucyo, perhaps he had been a mere child; perhaps he endureth for some time; perhaps he continueth in the service of our lord. 11. ye cuele za ixhuehuenton, za mamalichpil, quequetzopil, iztalecpil, yacacuitlapilopil, quechhuihuichpil: za pipilcac in inacayo, iciuhca onmiqui. eventually he is only little old eyes, only little locks of hair, tufts of hair, very white, nasal mucus hanging, trembling of neck; his flesh only hangeth in wrinkles; he quickly dieth. 12. huel ximopia nopiltze: guard thyself well, o my son. 13. at aca itla mitzmaca in cualoni, in ihuani: perhaps someone giveth thee something to be eaten, to be drunk. 14. intla itech tichicoyolloa, ma oc ye achto coni, ma oc ye achto concua, in tlein mitzmaca: if thou art suspicious of him, let him eat first, let him drink first that which he giveth thee. 15. tle ticmati pay attention. 16. xonmimattinemi in tlalticpac, ca oticcac in zan tlanepantlacayotl monequi. continue with caution on earth, for thou hast heard that moderation is necessary." ************ Footnote #6 on page 125 contains the following: Mazacoatl: cf. Dibble and Anderson, _Florentine Codex_, Book XI, "Earthly Things," p. 80. And on page 80 is the following text: *** 1. mazacohuatl: mazacoatl 2. tepiton cuacuahue, catzactontli: amo tecuani, amo cueche: it is small, horned, blackish; not poisonous; without rattles. 3. yehuatl inic momeyaltia in aquique cenca cihuanequini, zan conichiqui in coni, zan imixtlama in ome ei cihuatl quinamiquiz they who are much given to women, in order to produce semen, just scrape and drink it [in water]; they just capture the eye of two [or] three women they are about to meet. 4. in aquin ommotototza in coni, zan cen tlacuauhtilia, ihuan zan cenquizticac in ixinach, ihuan yoyommiqui. he who drinks too much continually erects his virile member and constantly ejects his semen, and dies of lasciviousness. *** 5. tlalmazacohuatl: tlalmazacoatl 6. in tonayan nemi, it lives in the hot lands. 7. itoca: tzompilacahuaztli, it is called tzompilacauaztli. 8. tliltontli, tzotlactontli, alactontli it is small and black, small and glistening, slippery. 9. cacallo atecocollo. it has a shell, a sea-shell. 10. inic mitoa tlalmazacohuatl: ca zan nohuian, in milpan nemi: auh inic mazatl itech onca, ca cuacuauhtone. it is called tlalmazacoatl because it dwells everywhere in the maize fields; and from deer, because it has small horns. 11. inin ihcuac neci in quiahui. this one appears when it rains. 12. inic nenemi, in oncan quiza iuhquin tizaayotl, iuhquinma tzauctli quinoquitiuh. as it goes about, when it emerges, there it goes exuding as it were a varnish liquid, like glue. 13. in aquin quiz i: intla miec qui, no yoyommiqui, ihuan ayotlami: he who drinks this [in an infusion], if he drinks much of it, also dies of lasciviousness, and his moisture ends. 14. ic miquiz, iccen ic cocolizquiz. so he will die; he will finally sicken because of it. So it wasn't an herb. Thanks anyway, Emily and Maximino. Best regards, Joe From J_Taggart at ACAD.FANDM.EDU Mon Nov 15 14:39:53 1999 From: J_Taggart at ACAD.FANDM.EDU (James Taggart) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 07:39:53 -0700 Subject: For mature audiences (was: some doubts) Message-ID: >Among speakers of the Zacapoaxtla dialect of general Aztec, a mazacoat was a non venomous snake (a constrictor) that grew to be quite large. Jim Taggart On Sun, 14 Nov 1999, Leonel Hermida wrote: > >> is 'mazacoatl' some kind of venomous snake? > >(Sorry about my funny double cross character for c cedilla) > > The only references to "mazacoatl" that I found in the Florentine Codex= >=20 >were the following: >=20 >mazacoatl** >=20 >1. no ihuan quiximati, in mitoa: *mazacoatl*,. > and also they knew of the so-called ma=87acoatl. (b.10 f.10 > p.171).=20 >=20 >momazacoahuiani** >=20 >2. in *momazacoahuiani*, intla elti, iciuhca mimiqui:. > he who partaketh of the ma=87acoatl, if aggressive, quickly > dieth. (b.6 f.10 p.126).=20 > >******* > > Molina reports only one entry for "mazacoatl" in each of his three >dictionaries: 'serpent, snake', but I thought that I recalled another use >-- an herb or something else that could ingested. So I checked Martin de >la Cruz, _Libellus de Medicinalibus Indorum Herbis_ (given extra notoriety >by the apparent rip-off of Emily Walcott Emmartt's edition of it by a >person whose identity my discretion prevents me from mentioning). --No >result.=20 > So I checked Maximino Martinez' _Catalogo de nombres vulgares y=20 >cientificos de plantas mexicanas_ with negative results too. Negative also= > on=20 >Louise Schoenhals' _A Spanish-English Glossary of Mexican Flora and Fauna i= >n=20 >the plants section, but in the reptiles section, she gives it as 'boa=20 >constrictor'. > But I *still* thought I remembered an allusion to it as something like = >an=20 >herb which could be ingested, so I went back to the Florentine Codex, where= >,=20 >in Book 6, I found the following: > =20 > Florentine Codex, Book 6, pp. 125-126 (end of this quote marked > with ************) > > 1. inin quil nepapacyo, cequi temeyalti in quitecualtia in quitetolol= >tia, > in ahzo quiteitia cihuatlahueliloque in ahuianime, inic > tlaelpaquiznequi: > this, it is said, is pleasurable; one [kind] causeth one to > discharge one's fluid when the whores, the harlots cause > one to eat it, swallow it, or drink it to provoke lewdness. > =20 > 2. inin ca teohuitili, auh nel micoani: ipampa ca tepatzcac, > this endangereth one; and it is very deadly because one is > dried up. > =20 > 3. ca tlami in tezzo, in totlapallo, in tochiahuaca ca tayo > tlami, tlami in oxiotl, in ocotzoyotl: > for it useth up our blood, our color, our oils; it useth up > our moisture; it useth up the turpentine, the resin. > =20 > 4. iuh mitoa in ***momazacohuahuia*** quixyeyecoa, zan ixquich qui, > so, it is said, he who partaketh of the ma=87acoatl is moderate, > drinketh it moderately. > =20 > 5. in ahzo nahui, macuilli cihuatl quinamiquiz, manozo matlactli: > [if immoderate,] he will have carnal access to perhaps four, > five, perhaps ten women. > =20 > 6. auh inin cihua, amo zan ceceppa in intech aci: ahzo quen > nanappa, mamacuilpa: > and to these women he hath access not only once with each one, > but four or five times with each one, more or less. > =20 > 7. auh ayac huecahua > and no one endureth. > =20 > 8. in momazacoahuiani, intla elti, iciuhca mimiqui: > he who partaketh of the ma=87acoatl, if aggressive, quickly dieth. > =20 > 9. inic miqui huel huaaqui, huel malichahui, huel pilini, huel > quequetotztzitzin mochihua, ixmalichpipil: > as he dieth he becometh well dried up, veritably a little lock > of hair, having long tufts of hair, locks of hair on the > face. > =20 > 10. ahzo quin piltontli, ac ace quexquichcahuitia, ahzo quin > achi quihualmana in tonatiuh ac ace tle quitoquilia in toteucyo, > perhaps he had been a mere child; perhaps he endureth for some > time; perhaps he continueth in the service of our lord. > =20 > 11. ye cuele za ixhuehuenton, za mamalichpil, quequetzopil, > iztalecpil, yacacuitlapilopil, quechhuihuichpil: za pipilcac > in inacayo, iciuhca onmiqui. > eventually he is only little old eyes, only little locks of > hair, tufts of hair, very white, nasal mucus hanging, trembling > of neck; his flesh only hangeth in wrinkles; he quickly > dieth. > > 12. huel ximopia nopiltze: > guard thyself well, o my son. > =20 > 13. at aca itla mitzmaca in cualoni, in ihuani: > perhaps someone giveth thee something to be eaten, to be drunk. > =20 > 14. intla itech tichicoyolloa, ma oc ye achto coni, ma oc ye > achto concua, in tlein mitzmaca: > if thou art suspicious of him, let him eat first, let him drink > first that which he giveth thee. > =20 > 15. tle ticmati > pay attention. > =20 > 16. xonmimattinemi in tlalticpac, ca oticcac in zan tlanepantlacayotl > monequi. > continue with caution on earth, for thou hast heard that moderation > is necessary." > =20 >************ > >Footnote #6 on page 125 contains the following: > Ma=87acoatl: cf. Dibble and Anderson, _Florentine Codex_, Book XI, > "Earthly Things," p. 80. > > >And on page 80 is the following text: > > >*** 1. mazacohuatl: > ma=87acoatl > =20 > 2. tepiton cuacuahue, catzactontli: amo tecuani, amo cueche: > it is small, horned, blackish; not poisonous; without rattles. > =20 > 3. yehuatl inic momeyaltia in aquique cenca cihuanequini, zan > conichiqui in coni, zan imixtlama in ome ei cihuatl quinamiquiz > they who are much given to women, in order to produce semen, > just scrape and drink it [in water]; they just capture the > eye of two [or] three women they are about to meet. > =20 > 4. in aquin ommotototza in coni, zan cen tlacuauhtilia, ihuan > zan cenquizticac in ixinach, ihuan yoyommiqui. > he who drinks too much continually erects his virile member > and constantly ejects his semen, and dies of lasciviousness. > > > =20 >*** 5. tlalmazacohuatl: > tlalma=87acoatl > =20 > 6. in tonayan nemi, > it lives in the hot lands. > =20 > 7. itoca: tzompilacahuaztli, > it is called tzompilacauaztli. > =20 > 8. tliltontli, tzotlactontli, alactontli > it is small and black, small and glistening, slippery. > =20 > 9. cacallo atecocollo. > it has a shell, a sea-shell. > =20 > 10. inic mitoa tlalmazacohuatl: ca zan nohuian, in milpan nemi: > auh inic mazatl itech onca, ca cuacuauhtone. > it is called tlalma=87acoatl because it dwells everywhere in > the maize fields; and from deer, because it has small horns. > =20 > 11. inin ihcuac neci in quiahui. > this one appears when it rains. > =20 > 12. inic nenemi, in oncan quiza iuhquin tizaayotl, iuhquinma > tzauctli quinoquitiuh. > as it goes about, when it emerges, there it goes exuding as > it were a varnish liquid, like glue. > =20 > 13. in aquin quiz i: intla miec qui, no yoyommiqui, ihuan ayotlami: > he who drinks this [in an infusion], if he drinks much of it, > also dies of lasciviousness, and his moisture ends. > =20 > 14. ic miquiz, iccen ic cocolizquiz. > so he will die; he will finally sicken because of it. > =20 > >So it wasn't an herb. Thanks anyway, Emily and Maximino. > >Best regards, > >Joe James M. Taggart Lewis Audenreid Professor of History and Archaeology Department of Anthropology Franklin and Marshall College Lancaster, PA 17604-3003 tel. 717-291-4038 J_Taggart at ACAD.FANDM.EDU From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Nov 15 15:33:59 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 08:33:59 -0700 Subject: For mature audiences (was: some doubts) Message-ID: More about the mazacoatl. In the Florentine Codex book on natural history, it is reported that there are two snakes called mazacoatl. The first is a large, thick, dark-colored snake that lives in the forest and eats rabbits, birds, deer, and people. The second is black, long, and thick with no rattles on its tail and no fangs. It is said to be fairly docile, and people keep them in their homes. The reason for keeping them is that they are delicious to eat. The Florentine Codex provides a funny illustration of the mazacoatl as a snake with antlers (reminding one of the Texas "Jackalope" postcards of jack rabbits with antlers). Francisco Hernandez, in his Natural History of New Spain, Vol. II, reports that the mazacoatl was described to him as a snake of the hot country, very thick of body, as thick as a human limb or even as thick as the trunk of a human body. Fran From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 15 17:40:39 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:40:39 -0700 Subject: Mazacoatl Message-ID: >> Among speakers of the Zacapoaxtla dialect of general Aztec, a mazacoat > was a non venomous snake (a constrictor) that grew to be quite large. Also, down the road from Xochitlan c. Cuetzalan the mazacoat is as Jim says a large constrictor considered a good thing to have in one's milpa (as it eats pests) to the degree that if one is generally fortunate in a harvest one says to indicate this "quipia mazacoatl" [he/she has a mazacoat] indicating that the harvest was good. This sort of thing ties it into ideas about tonalli which also are animals and weather phenomena and have equally to do with the quality of one's harvest. In Sierra Norte de Puebla (and elsewhere!!!) cosmology has two snakes crossing over the sky. One bearing Venus, the other the sun. They are called Nezalcoat (probably Quetzalcoatl) and Mazacoat. As far as its oubourotic viagratic erotic powers, I've no clue. Richard Haly From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Mon Nov 15 21:46:10 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:46:10 -0700 Subject: Summer Course on Nahuatl Message-ID: Yale University will offer its third summer course on Nahuatl under the direction of Jonathan Amith. For further information go to the Institute web page: http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl/index.html John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From CCBtlevine at aol.com Mon Nov 15 23:01:23 1999 From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:01:23 -0700 Subject: Summer Course on Nahuatl Message-ID: In a message dated 11/15/1999 1:46:56 PM Pacific Standard Time, schwallr at selway.umt.edu writes: << Yale University will offer its third summer course on Nahuatl under the direction of Jonathan Amith. For further information go to the Institute web page: http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl/index.html >> I took the course last summer and highly recommend it. Tom Levine From GESX1CKAH at aol.com Tue Nov 16 05:29:45 1999 From: GESX1CKAH at aol.com (GESX1CKAH at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 22:29:45 -0700 Subject: Summer Course on Nahuatl Message-ID: what does a course like this run? already assuming not cheap! jess From Yaoxochitl at aol.com Tue Nov 16 06:29:50 1999 From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:29:50 -0700 Subject: Summer Course on Nahuatl Message-ID: the course costs $2,600 and is an 8 week course. From leonelhermida at netc.pt Wed Nov 17 12:31:11 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 05:31:11 -0700 Subject: in cuappetlapan Message-ID: Hi, In cuappetlapan, in ocelopetlapan oyeco, in oimmac *manca* in cuappiaztli, in cuauhxicalli, in ocuauhyacanque, in ocatlitique in tonatiuh in tlalteuctli: they came exercising military command; in their hands rested the eagle tube, the eagle vessel; they led the eagle warriors; they provided drink for the sun, for tlaltecutli. (b.6 f.9 p.106) I was able to depuzzle 'in cuappetlapan in ocelopetlapan' (please correct me if I am wrong: 'petlatl' is 'reed mat', so petlapan ('on the reed mat') must mean s.t. like 'office', so cuappetlapan < *cuauh- petlapan and ocelopetlapan must translate as 'the eagle-office [and] the ocelot-office) but I cannot find the verb root in 'oyeco' (ye?, yeco?, co?, though this must mean 'they came')...; the next doubt is 'oimmac' (unless 'imma' means 'their hands', immac = 'in their hands' and o- is the antecessive prefix ??); 'cuappiaztli' and 'cuauhxicalli' pose no problems but there remain the two verbal complexes o-cuauh-yacanque? and o-c-atli-tique? Thanks to Michael, Fran and Joe. I'm impressed with the Aztec pharmacopoeia (*pahamatl)!! Best regards, Leonel From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Nov 17 13:44:12 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 06:44:12 -0700 Subject: in cuappetlapan Message-ID: Leonel, Lately I've been working in another native American language family and have not spent much time at all with Nahuatl, but I'm happy to give you a few of my meagre memories when I can. And you are quite welcome. On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Leonel Hermida wrote: > Hi, > > In cuappetlapan, in ocelopetlapan oyeco, in oimmac *manca* > in cuappiaztli, in cuauhxicalli, in ocuauhyacanque, in > ocatlitique in tonatiuh in tlalteuctli: > they came exercising military command; in their hands > rested the eagle tube, the eagle vessel; they led the eagle > warriors; they provided drink for the sun, for tlaltecutli. > (b.6 f.9 p.106) > > I was able to depuzzle 'in cuappetlapan in ocelopetlapan' (please > correct me if I am wrong: 'petlatl' is 'reed mat' sim , so petlapan ('on the > reed mat') sim must mean s.t. like 'office', so cuappetlapan < *cuauh- > petlapan and ocelopetlapan must translate as 'the eagle-office > [and] the ocelot-office) isto e o que penso eu tambem. but I cannot find the verb root in 'oyeco' > (ye?, yeco?, co?, though this must mean 'they came')...; nao estou certo de esta palavra. Mas creio que seja . Joe o Fran vao sabe-la. the next > doubt is 'oimmac' (unless 'imma' means 'their hands', immac = 'in > their hands' and o- is the antecessive prefix ??); sim. o indica o passado e a traducao de e correcta. 'cuappiaztli' and > 'cuauhxicalli' pose no problems but there remain the two verbal > complexes o-cuauh-yacanque? and o-c-atli-tique? > yacana....yacatl + ana = guide, lead. Nose-draw: very graphic, huh!!?? (past tense) > Thanks to Michael, Fran and Joe. I'm impressed with the Aztec > pharmacopoeia (*pahamatl)!! > > Best regards, > > Leonel > > > > > From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu Wed Nov 17 15:38:45 1999 From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:38:45 -0700 Subject: in cuappetlapan Message-ID: > > the next > > doubt is 'oimmac' (unless 'imma' means 'their hands', immac = 'in > > their hands' and o- is the antecessive prefix ??); > > sim. o indica o passado e a traducao de e correcta. This is an interesting issue. If "o" is the past tense indicator then it is being attaching to the locative phrase "immac"[in their hands] rather than the verb "manca". Did they do this? Is it possible that this "o" is actually the directional "on" without the "n"? I think a little while back Fran mentioned "n" dropping, but I'm not sure if this was only in certain environments. If it is the past tense "o" then does this suggest that the "immac" is actually imbedded in the verb like nouns often are? I don't know, but if I had to guess, I would say that the "o" was actually "on". Galen From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Nov 17 16:17:25 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:17:25 -0700 Subject: in cuappetlapan Message-ID: Good point. I'm sure somebody who knows something will weigh in soon on this. I thought that there might have been a printing error and that the oimma was part of manca. As a past tense indicator it'd have to be on a verb, not possessed noun. And then, I thought -on- only went with birds, I mean verbs, or as the case may be. Michael On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Galen Brokaw wrote: > > > > the next > > > doubt is 'oimmac' (unless 'imma' means 'their hands', immac = 'in > > > their hands' and o- is the antecessive prefix ??); > > > > sim. o indica o passado e a traducao de e correcta. > > This is an interesting issue. If "o" is the past tense indicator then it is > being attaching to the locative phrase "immac"[in their hands] rather than > the verb "manca". Did they do this? Is it possible that this "o" is actually > the directional "on" without the "n"? I think a little while back Fran > mentioned "n" dropping, but I'm not sure if this was only in certain > environments. If it is the past tense "o" then does this suggest that the > "immac" is actually imbedded in the verb like nouns often are? I don't know, > but if I had to guess, I would say that the "o" was actually "on". > Galen > Michael McCafferty C.E.L.T. 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going from the me that others don't know to the other me that I don't know. -Juan Ramon Jimenez ******************************************************************************* From RCRAPO at wpo.hass.usu.edu Wed Nov 17 21:51:26 1999 From: RCRAPO at wpo.hass.usu.edu (Richley Crapo) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:51:26 -0700 Subject: Any suggestions? Message-ID: Anyone want to try deciphering this one? (Proveniance: early seventeenth century Tlaxcala) Poxauh quincuic intechhuic. From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 17 22:15:16 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:15:16 -0700 Subject: Any suggestions? Message-ID: > Anyone want to try deciphering this one? (Proveniance: early > seventeenth century Tlaxcala) > > Poxauh quincuic intechhuic. Off the top o' the head (tho' I can't claim this answer is therefore radiant): "He dug (into the earth). He carried (that which he dug?) He bore it to us." What are you working on? I have an interest in this time/place as I'm project ethnographer on a NGS grant "Proyecto La Malinche"... Best, Richard Haly From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu Wed Nov 17 23:08:36 1999 From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:08:36 -0700 Subject: Any suggestions? Message-ID: > > Poxauh quincuic intechhuic. I'm no expert, but I had some free time just now. As I was working on this, I received Richard's post. I came up with something a little different, but I was having trouble relating "poxauh" with the rest of the phrase. This is what I had: It swelled up (or it got soft) [from poxahua], he took (in a grabbing kind of way) them to them. I was translating "intechhuic" as: in=3rd person plural possessive -tech=postposition: attached to -huic=postposition: towards So, techhuic would be a double postposition. I've seen before where Nahuatl will put two post positions together, but I don't remember seeing "techhuic" before. Am I way off? Galen From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 17 23:24:12 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:24:12 -0700 Subject: Translation question Message-ID: Hi folks, While c.95% of the following is reasonably clear to me, I'd love some input on the section between asterisks for which I have too many possibilities: ica tehuan tomaticazinco . ticMochihuilizino,=20 nonic sentet ystac Amat tacuilolisti tapualisti motocallotia carta=8A quenami huel Cualzin **ticmozintoquilizino Huan ticMozintepostoquilizino. ** Huan tic motilizino, tein Huel Conteteneutihuiz =AD Huan tein huel Contetenquixtizinotihuiz =AD This is perhaps more intelligible if I change it to a -tl dialect and substitute y for -ll, etc. thus: ica tehuan tomaticatzinco . ticMochihuilitzino, nonic centetl yztac Amatl tlacuilolizti tlapoalizti motocayotia carta=8A=20 quenami huel Cualtzin **ticmotzintoquilitzino Huan ticMotzintepoztoquilitzino. ** Huan tic motilitzino, tlein Huel Conteteneutihuiz =AD Huan tlein huel Contetenquixtizinotihuiz =AD I didn't change ticmotzintepoztoquilitzino though it also appears (equally honorific) ticmotzintepostequilizino (in a later ms.): I think the problem begins with tepoz/tepuz etc. What say ye? Thanks, Richard Haly From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 17 23:28:09 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:28:09 -0700 Subject: Any suggestions? Message-ID: > I don't remember seeing "techhuic" before. I'm reading it as perfect tense of huica with indirect object (tech:to us) but now I see that Simeon has uicac for perfective... From rommell at agf.com Thu Nov 18 00:44:20 1999 From: rommell at agf.com (Rommel Lagman) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 17:44:20 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl 101 Message-ID: Hi everyone -- This is my first day in this list. I'd like to know if you guys can su= ggest any web site that features a sort of Nahuatl 101 -- the basics. Thanks. := -) Hola a todos -- Es mi primer dia en esta lista. Quisiera saber si ustedes supieran alg= unos sitios de web que presentan informaci=F3n basica sobre esta lengua. G= racias. :-) Jos=E9 Romelo = From RCRAPO at wpo.hass.usu.edu Thu Nov 18 03:54:16 1999 From: RCRAPO at wpo.hass.usu.edu (Richley Crapo) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:54:16 -0700 Subject: Any suggestions? Message-ID: I think you are correct about quincuic and intechuic. The latter, "to near them" is not what is thought of as "standard" Classical Aztec, but it seems to occur in Tlaxcala. It's Poxauh that's got me stumped. Richley <<< Galen Brokaw 11/17 4:11p >>> > > Poxauh quincuic intechhuic. I'm no expert, but I had some free time just now. As I was working on this, I received Richard's post. I came up with something a little different, but I was having trouble relating "poxauh" with the rest of the phrase. This is what I had: It swelled up (or it got soft) [from poxahua], he took (in a grabbing kind of way) them to them. I was translating "intechhuic" as: in=3rd person plural possessive -tech=postposition: attached to -huic=postposition: towards So, techhuic would be a double postposition. I've seen before where Nahuatl will put two post positions together, but I don't remember seeing "techhuic" before. Am I way off? Galen From robc at csufresno.edu Thu Nov 18 05:53:31 1999 From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert G. Comegys) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:53:31 -0700 Subject: Recognizing Nahuatl Message-ID: Dear Group, Is there some characteristic (or characteristics) of nahuatl that is (are) unique to it that could be used to prove that a written passage is only nahuatl and not some other language? I would be very grateful for established techniques or common knowledge or resources. All the best, John Comegys e mail address robc at csufresno.edu From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Nov 18 12:00:28 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 05:00:28 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl 101 Message-ID: Rommel. No. Not that I've heard. I'd suggest getting Kartunnen and Campbell's "introductory" grammar and workbook and digging in. It's state-of-the-art. No computer necessary. The address where you can get it is in the archives of this list-serve. (or Fritz Schwaller may post it again for the umpteenth time :) If you are a Spanish speaker, you may also enjoy Thelma Sullivan's _Compendio de la grammatica nahuatl_. best, Michael McCafferty On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Rommel Lagman wrote: > > > > Hi everyone -- > This is my first day in this list. I'd like to know if you guys can su= > ggest any > web site that features a sort of Nahuatl 101 -- the basics. Thanks. := > -) > > Hola a todos -- > Es mi primer dia en esta lista. Quisiera saber si ustedes supieran alg= > unos > sitios de web que presentan informaci=F3n basica sobre esta lengua. G= > racias. > :-) > > Jos=E9 Romelo > > = > > Michael McCafferty C.E.L.T. 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going from the me that others don't know to the other me that I don't know. -Juan Ramon Jimenez ******************************************************************************* From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Nov 18 11:45:17 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 04:45:17 -0700 Subject: Any suggestions? Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Leonel Hermida wrote: > Please allow me to put my "two cents worth" on "poxauh quincuic > intechhuic": as I have it 'cui= take, Michael: yeah, cui is correct. it's not cuica. the -c is the preterit marker on the verb. 'quincuic' is 'he grabbed them" Galen is correct that -techhuic is a "double postposition." This animal is **quite** common in "Classical" Nahuatl. With the direction postposition -huic, 'took them' is an acceptable translation. ----------------------------------------------------- grab' and 'cuica= sing' so to > explain the spare "-c" in 'quincuic': > "having grabbed them, they softened [and] brought them to us" > > > Have I put the foot on it? > Leonel > > > >I think you are correct about quincuic and intechuic. The latter, "to > >near them" is not what is thought of as "standard" Classical Aztec, but > >it seems to occur in Tlaxcala. It's Poxauh that's got me stumped. > > > >Richley > > > ><<< Galen Brokaw 11/17 4:11p >>> > >> > >> Poxauh quincuic intechhuic. > > > >I'm no expert, but I had some free time just now. As I was working on > >this, I received Richard's post. I came up with something a little > >different, but I was having trouble relating "poxauh" with the rest of > >the phrase. This is what I had: > > > >It swelled up (or it got soft) [from poxahua], he took (in a grabbing > >kind of way) them to them. > > > >I was translating "intechhuic" as: > >in=3rd person plural possessive > >-tech=postposition: attached to > >-huic=postposition: towards > > > >So, techhuic would be a double postposition. > >I've seen before where Nahuatl will put two post positions together, but > >I don't remember seeing "techhuic" before. > >Am I way off? > >Galen > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael McCafferty C.E.L.T. 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going from the me that others don't know to the other me that I don't know. -Juan Ramon Jimenez ******************************************************************************* From leonelhermida at netc.pt Thu Nov 18 11:30:09 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 04:30:09 -0700 Subject: Any suggestions? Message-ID: Please allow me to put my "two cents worth" on "poxauh quincuic intechhuic": as I have it 'cui= take, grab' and 'cuica= sing' so to explain the spare "-c" in 'quincuic': "having grabbed them, they softened [and] brought them to us" Have I put the foot on it? Leonel >I think you are correct about quincuic and intechuic. The latter, "to >near them" is not what is thought of as "standard" Classical Aztec, but >it seems to occur in Tlaxcala. It's Poxauh that's got me stumped. > >Richley > ><<< Galen Brokaw 11/17 4:11p >>> >> >> Poxauh quincuic intechhuic. > >I'm no expert, but I had some free time just now. As I was working on >this, I received Richard's post. I came up with something a little >different, but I was having trouble relating "poxauh" with the rest of >the phrase. This is what I had: > >It swelled up (or it got soft) [from poxahua], he took (in a grabbing >kind of way) them to them. > >I was translating "intechhuic" as: >in=3rd person plural possessive >-tech=postposition: attached to >-huic=postposition: towards > >So, techhuic would be a double postposition. >I've seen before where Nahuatl will put two post positions together, but >I don't remember seeing "techhuic" before. >Am I way off? >Galen > > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Nov 18 11:14:48 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 04:14:48 -0700 Subject: in cuappetlapan Message-ID: > > On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Galen Brokaw wrote: > > > > > > > the next > > > > doubt is 'oimmac' (unless 'imma' means 'their hands', immac = 'in > > > > their hands' and o- is the antecessive prefix ??); > > > > This is an interesting issue. If "o" is the past tense indicator then it is > > being attaching to the locative phrase "immac"[in their hands] rather than > > the verb "manca". Did they do this? Is it possible that this "o" is actually > > the directional "on" without the "n"? I think a little while back Fran > > mentioned "n" dropping, but I'm not sure if this was only in certain > > environments. If it is the past tense "o" then does this suggest that the > > "immac" is actually imbedded in the verb like nouns often are? I don't know, > > but if I had to guess, I would say that the "o" was actually "on". > > Galen I woke up in the middle of the night and realized on- occurs elsewhere. Duh. We see in, for example in and . Yeah, Galen, this looks like |on-in-maitl-co|. Michael From RCRAPO at wpo.hass.usu.edu Thu Nov 18 15:56:28 1999 From: RCRAPO at wpo.hass.usu.edu (Richley Crapo) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 08:56:28 -0700 Subject: Aztec Idioms Message-ID: Is "cuali eztli" an original Nahuatl idiom for "of noble lineage", or is this more likely a loan-translation from Spanish into Nahuatl? richley From RCRAPO at wpo.hass.usu.edu Thu Nov 18 16:23:57 1999 From: RCRAPO at wpo.hass.usu.edu (Richley Crapo) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:23:57 -0700 Subject: Any suggestions? - correction Message-ID: I think I've solved my problem concerning "poxauh" by discovering that the transcription I was working with has dropped some relevant material. The correct wording is: "Oquinmamacac tlatquitl, huelitiliztli. [Inic huelquinyol ]Poxauh quincuic intechhuic. Inic otlatocatic onpoali yhuan matlactli xihuitl." I assume that the correct segmentation of the relevant portion should be "Inic huel quinyolpoxauh, quincuic intechuic." Sometimes I'm my own worst enemy. Richley From CCBtlevine at aol.com Fri Nov 19 01:05:08 1999 From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:05:08 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl 101 Message-ID: In a message dated 11/18/1999 4:01:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, mmccaffe at indiana.edu writes: << I'd suggest getting Kartunnen and Campbell's "introductory" grammar and workbook and digging in. It's state-of-the-art. No computer necessary. The address where you can get it is in the archives of this list-serve. (or Fritz Schwaller may post it again for the umpteenth time :) If you are a Spanish speaker, you may also enjoy Thelma Sullivan's _Compendio de la grammatica nahuatl_. best, Michael McCafferty >> Thelma Sullivan's grammar is also in English. Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar. However, I like Michel Launey's Introduccion a la Lengua Y a la Literatura Nahuatl. It is available in both Spanish and French. He does a very good job. He writes clearly and to the point. Tom Levine From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Fri Nov 19 01:49:53 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:49:53 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl 101 Message-ID: Tom Levine wrote: | Thelma Sullivan's grammar is also in English. Compendium of Nahuatl | Grammar. | | However, I like Michel Launey's Introduccion a la Lengua Y a la | Literatura Nahuatl. It is available in both Spanish and French. He | does a very good job. He writes clearly and to the point. I have Thelma Sullivan's grammar in English. Are there any grammars in German? Using an orthography based on German or Classical Latin? From Yaoxochitl at aol.com Fri Nov 19 04:22:06 1999 From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:22:06 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl 101 Message-ID: I forgot, how does one get to the archives list again? From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx Fri Nov 19 04:25:42 1999 From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:25:42 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl 101 Message-ID: The Spanish version of Launey's book was butchered by the UNAM: there are too many spelling errors for it to be of use to anyone but an advanced student of nahuatl (who would be able to recognize the errors). John Sullivan Doctorado en Historia Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de CCBtlevine at aol.com Enviado el: Jueves, 18 de Noviembre de 1999 07:08 p.m. Para: Multiple recipients of list Asunto: Re: Nahuatl 101 In a message dated 11/18/1999 4:01:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, mmccaffe at indiana.edu writes: << I'd suggest getting Kartunnen and Campbell's "introductory" grammar and workbook and digging in. It's state-of-the-art. No computer necessary. The address where you can get it is in the archives of this list-serve. (or Fritz Schwaller may post it again for the umpteenth time :) If you are a Spanish speaker, you may also enjoy Thelma Sullivan's _Compendio de la grammatica nahuatl_. best, Michael McCafferty >> Thelma Sullivan's grammar is also in English. Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar. However, I like Michel Launey's Introduccion a la Lengua Y a la Literatura Nahuatl. It is available in both Spanish and French. He does a very good job. He writes clearly and to the point. Tom Levine From mdmorris at indiana.edu Fri Nov 19 16:07:18 1999 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:07:18 -0700 Subject: Translation question Message-ID: Richard et al, Off the top of my head isn't going to be much help because I swear I haven't seen "toca" used in this way. What is the year of this document? Do you think we are talking about printed material? I'll look at some similar documents and ask around to try to give you a hand. Mark Morris P.S. I have a few problem phrases myself, one of which is "inquixic." I'll send the context later. On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Richard Haly wrote: > Hi folks, > > While c.95% of the following is reasonably clear to me, I'd love some input > on the section between asterisks for which I have too many possibilities: > > ica tehuan tomaticazinco . > ticMochihuilizino,=20 > nonic sentet ystac Amat > tacuilolisti tapualisti > motocallotia carta=8A > quenami huel Cualzin > **ticmozintoquilizino > Huan ticMozintepostoquilizino. ** > Huan tic motilizino, > tein Huel Conteteneutihuiz =AD > Huan tein huel Contetenquixtizinotihuiz =AD > > This is perhaps more intelligible if I change it to a -tl dialect and > substitute y for -ll, etc. thus: > > ica tehuan tomaticatzinco . > ticMochihuilitzino, > nonic centetl yztac Amatl > tlacuilolizti tlapoalizti > motocayotia carta=8A=20 > quenami huel Cualtzin > **ticmotzintoquilitzino > Huan ticMotzintepoztoquilitzino. ** > Huan tic motilitzino, > tlein Huel Conteteneutihuiz =AD > Huan tlein huel Contetenquixtizinotihuiz =AD > > I didn't change ticmotzintepoztoquilitzino though it also appears (equally > honorific) ticmotzintepostequilizino (in a later ms.): I think the problem > begins with tepoz/tepuz etc. > > What say ye? > > Thanks, > > Richard Haly > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Fri Nov 19 19:09:47 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:09:47 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl web site Message-ID: The archives of Nahuat-l, plus a limited number of links, and other resources materialsa are housed on the Nahuatl web site which I maintain. Information about purchasing the Campbell and Karttunen text is also available there. Point your browser to: http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl J. F. Schwaller, List Owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From CHAPEL885 at aol.com Fri Nov 19 21:37:00 1999 From: CHAPEL885 at aol.com (CHAPEL885 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 14:37:00 -0700 Subject: Aztec Idioms Message-ID: Please take us off your email list for the person who inquired no longer works here. From karttu at nantucket.net Sun Nov 21 20:23:39 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:23:39 -0700 Subject: Translation question Message-ID: Looks to be as though what is intended is not tepoz- but tepotz-. Tepotztoca is a transitive verb meaning 'to follow someone, to pursue a matter, to insist on something.' ---------- >From: Mark David Morris >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Translation question >Date: Fri, Nov 19, 1999, 11:09 AM > > Richard et al, > > Off the top of my head isn't going to be much help because I swear I > haven't seen "toca" used in this way. What is the year of this document? > Do you think we are talking about printed material? I'll look > at some similar documents and ask around to try to give you a hand. > > > > Mark Morris > > P.S. I have a few problem phrases myself, one of which is "inquixic." > I'll send the context later. > > > On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Richard Haly wrote: > >> Hi folks, >> >> While c.95% of the following is reasonably clear to me, I'd love some input >> on the section between asterisks for which I have too many possibilities: >> >> ica tehuan tomaticazinco . >> ticMochihuilizino,=20 >> nonic sentet ystac Amat >> tacuilolisti tapualisti >> motocallotia carta=8A >> quenami huel Cualzin >> **ticmozintoquilizino >> Huan ticMozintepostoquilizino. ** >> Huan tic motilizino, >> tein Huel Conteteneutihuiz =AD >> Huan tein huel Contetenquixtizinotihuiz =AD >> >> This is perhaps more intelligible if I change it to a -tl dialect and >> substitute y for -ll, etc. thus: >> >> ica tehuan tomaticatzinco . >> ticMochihuilitzino, >> nonic centetl yztac Amatl >> tlacuilolizti tlapoalizti >> motocayotia carta=8A=20 >> quenami huel Cualtzin >> **ticmotzintoquilitzino >> Huan ticMotzintepoztoquilitzino. ** >> Huan tic motilitzino, >> tlein Huel Conteteneutihuiz =AD >> Huan tlein huel Contetenquixtizinotihuiz =AD >> >> I didn't change ticmotzintepoztoquilitzino though it also appears (equally >> honorific) ticmotzintepostequilizino (in a later ms.): I think the problem >> begins with tepoz/tepuz etc. >> >> What say ye? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Richard Haly >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more > grief. Eccl 1:18 > > To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To > regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we > are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not > sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 > > MDM, PhD Candidate > Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. > > From karttu at nantucket.net Sun Nov 21 20:28:32 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:28:32 -0700 Subject: Interesting data Message-ID: Dear listeros, I was sent the following Nahuatl data from a very recent publication. It seems that for the provider of these data, the fact that Nahuatl does not distinguish masculine and feminine third person singular subjects is a problem that has been solved by resort to Spanish el/ella. Has anyone else recorded data of this sort? It's new ot me but plausible. Fran The reference is MacSwan, Jeff. A minimalist approach to intrasentential code switchine. 1999. NY: Garland. (this is a revision of his 1998 UCLA dissertation) Some acceptable examples with el and ella are: El kikoas tlakemetl 'He will buy clothes' Ella kikoas tlakemetl 'She will buy clothes' The comparable ungrammatical ones are: *Yo nikoas tlakemetl 'I will buy clothes' *Tu tikoas tlakemetl 'You will buy clothes' These are all on page 192 of his book. From SANCHEM2 at sce.com Mon Nov 22 14:11:50 1999 From: SANCHEM2 at sce.com (Sanchez, Michael) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 07:11:50 -0700 Subject: Interesting data Message-ID: can someone please take me off this list. Mike Sanchez SCE Communication Services Alhambra Bldg. "C" Pax 46226 (626) 308-6226 > ---------- > From: Frances Karttunen[SMTP:karttu at nantucket.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 1999 12:28 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Interesting data > > Dear listeros, > > I was sent the following Nahuatl data from a very recent publication. It > seems that for the provider of these data, the fact that Nahuatl does not > distinguish masculine and feminine third person singular subjects is a > problem that has been solved by resort to Spanish el/ella. > > Has anyone else recorded data of this sort? It's new ot me but plausible. > > Fran > > > > The reference is > MacSwan, Jeff. A minimalist approach to intrasentential code switchine. > 1999. NY: Garland. (this is a revision of his 1998 UCLA dissertation) > > Some acceptable examples with el and ella are: > > El kikoas tlakemetl > 'He will buy clothes' > > Ella kikoas tlakemetl > 'She will buy clothes' > > The comparable ungrammatical ones are: > > *Yo nikoas tlakemetl > 'I will buy clothes' > > *Tu tikoas tlakemetl > 'You will buy clothes' > > These are all on page 192 of his book. > From xikano_1 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 22 16:18:40 1999 From: xikano_1 at hotmail.com (XiKano *) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 09:18:40 -0700 Subject: Maybe Someone ... Message-ID: ..here can help out? -XiKano >>From the Aztlan board : My name is Josephine Volpe and I am a graduate student at UCLA. I am working as a researcher for a television series based on Michael Coe's book Breaking the Maya Code. We have been doing extensive research for the past six months under a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities. However, we are still searching for film, video, and still images of specific people and events significant to the history of the Mayan decipherment. Attached below is a description of the project, and a list of what we are seeking. Any help Aztlan members could give us, either by providing leads or by sharing material in their personal collections, would be greatly appreciated. Please reply directly to me at jvolpe at ucla.edu, rather than to the list. Thank you. CURRENT STATUS OF THE PROJECT: The television series Breaking the Maya Code was conceived in 1997 by producer David Lebrun and author Michael Coe. Michael Coe is serving as co-author and Principal Advisor to the project. The project is under the sponsorship of the Pre-Columbian Art Research Institute, and the Advisory Board consists of Federico Fahsen, William L. Fash, Nikolai Grube, Stephen D. Houston, Justin Kerr, Simon Martin, Peter Mathews, Mary Ellen Miller, Robert L. Sharer, David Stuart, George E. Stuart, Karl A. Taube, Barbara Tedlock, and Evon Z. Vogt. The project has received a research and scripting grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities. Researchers who have contributed to the project include Cheyenne Spetzler, Josephine Volpe, Margaret Jackson, Jeffrey Glover, Zachary Hruby, Claudia Garcia-Des Lauriers, and Kaylee Spencer. Extensive in-person research interviews have been conducted with most of the members of the advisory board, as well as Elizabeth Benson, Dorie Reents-Budet, David Freidel, Gillett Griffin, Chris Jones, Kathryn Josserand & Nicholas Hopkins, John Justeson, Terry Kaufman, David Kelley, Barbara Kerr, Barbara MacLeod, Joyce Marcus, John Robertson, Merle Robertson, Jeremy Sabloff, and Dennis Tedlock. (Interviews with others are ongoing.) In searching for images, we have reviewed some of the materials at the image archives of the Peabody Museum, the University of Pennsylvania, and the Newberry Library. We have reviewed (or are in the process of reviewing) several hundred books and articles and around twenty films and videos that were produced in the United States, the United Kingdom, and Latin America, as well as relevant footage from John Longyear, Phil Hofstetter, and Ortolf Karla. IMAGES WE ARE LOOKING FOR: 1. Unpublished graphics, photographs, film and video with images of: a) Any of the following individuals: Rafinesque, Leon de Rosny, Brasseur de Bourbourg, J.T. Goodman, Ernst Forstemann, Eduard Seler, Cyrus Thomas, Alfred P. Maudslay, Sylvanus G. Morley, Alfred Tozzer and Glover Allen, Hermann Beyer, Benjamin Whorf, Eric Thompson, Tatiana Proskouriakoff, Yuri Knorozov, Heinrich Berlin, Floyd Lounsbury, Linda Schele, David Kelley, Peter Mathews, Michael Coe, Stephen Houston, David Stuart, and Nikolai Grube. With regard to living individuals, we are particularly interested in material from past decades (pre-1990). b) Images of various meetings: the Mesa Redondas de Palenque from the 1970s and 80s, the 1970s Dumbarton Oaks Maya Meetings, and the early Texas Workshops from 1978-85. 2. Film or video of the archaeological excavation of epigraphic inscriptions. 3. A specific educational film showing the excavation of the tomb of Hasaw Chan Kawil at Tikal Temple 1. (We have had this film described to us, but we have been unable to locate the title or distributor of the film. It was probably released circa 1962.) 4. Films that were shot by Morley in the 1930s. 5. Any Colonial period images related to the Spanish in the Maya region or the Maya-Spanish interaction. 6. Any European-produced films on the Maya with images of archaeological excavation or of epigraphers in the field. At this point we are locating materials as part of our research. When the series goes into production, compensation will be paid to copyright holders for any materials that we use. Thanks again, Josephine Volpe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From macswan at asu.edu Mon Nov 22 18:45:24 1999 From: macswan at asu.edu (Jeff MacSwan) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:45:24 -0700 Subject: Interesting data Message-ID: At 01:30 PM 11/21/99 -0700, Frances Karttunen wrote: >I was sent the following Nahuatl data from a very recent publication. It >seems that for the provider of these data, the fact that Nahuatl does not >distinguish masculine and feminine third person singular subjects is a >problem that has been solved by resort to Spanish el/ella. > >The reference is >MacSwan, Jeff. A minimalist approach to intrasentential code switchine. >1999. NY: Garland. (this is a revision of his 1998 UCLA dissertation) Fran, Actually, my analysis is concerned with grammaticality in codeswitching. I wouldn't say that the use of the third person Spanish pronoun compensates for a Nahuatl pronoun which is unspecified for gender, especially since these examples were presented to bilingual consultants who gave grammaticality judgments on them. But it does turn out that bilinguals can mix languages at this boundary for third person but not first or second. In my analysis of the examples you quote below, I relate the grammaticality of the third person cases to the absence of overt third-person agreement morphology on the Nahuatl verb, and argue, in line with a proposal Pollock made for English, that verbs don't have to check agreement when they lack relevant morphology. For anyone interested in reading more about these and other Spanish-Nahuatl examples, my 1999 Garland book is the best source (ask your library to order it if you don't find it!). But the Garland book is a revision of my dissertation, and that's free on the web, at http://www.public.asu.edu/~macswan/diss.html I also wrote up a shorter paper which might be of interest (the data quoted below is treated on pages 32ff). You can download the paper version at http://www.public.asu.edu/~macswan/newcastle.pdf Thanks for your interest! Jeff >Some acceptable examples with el and ella are: > >El kikoas tlakemetl >'He will buy clothes' > >Ella kikoas tlakemetl >'She will buy clothes' > >The comparable ungrammatical ones are: > >*Yo nikoas tlakemetl >'I will buy clothes' > >*Tu tikoas tlakemetl >'You will buy clothes' > >These are all on page 192 of his book. > From SPoole8257 at aol.com Mon Nov 22 22:22:36 1999 From: SPoole8257 at aol.com (SPoole8257 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:22:36 -0700 Subject: Aztec pregnancy Message-ID: Dear Neteros: There is an assertion that is rather often made about the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe of Mexico, that is, that the black belt around the Virgin's waist was a Nahua symbol of pregnancy. I have searched various sources from Sahagun to Soustelle to more recent ones and have not found mention of such a custom. Has anyone ever encountered this? It has also been said that this custom was the source of the Spanish word "encinta," meaning pregnant, despite the fact that it is derived from Latin and has cognates in both French and Italian. Incidentally, the belt was originally purple and has turned black with time. Stafford Poole SPoole8257 at aol.com From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Nov 22 23:38:26 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:38:26 -0700 Subject: Aztec pregnancy Message-ID: At least some years ago Thelma Sullivan was the ultimate authority on pregnancy and childbirth among the Mexica. I don't have copies of these articles of hers at hand, but it would be worth looking into them: Sullivan 1966. "Pregnancy, Childbirth, and the Deification of Women Who Died in Childbirth" in Estudios de cultura nahuatl 6: 63-95. Sullivan 1980. "O Precious Necklace, O Quetzal Feather! Aztec Pregnancy and Childbirth Orations" in Alcheringa/Ethnopoetics 4: 38-56. Sullivan 1982. "Tlazolteotl-Ixcuina: The Great Spinner and Weaver" in The Art and Iconography of Late Post-Classic Central Mexico (E. Boone, ed): 7-35. ---------- >From: SPoole8257 at aol.com >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Aztec pregnancy >Date: Mon, Nov 22, 1999, 5:24 PM > > Dear Neteros: > > There is an assertion that is rather often made about the image of Our Lady > of Guadalupe of Mexico, that is, that the black belt around the Virgin's > waist was a Nahua symbol of pregnancy. I have searched various sources from > Sahagun to Soustelle to more recent ones and have not found mention of such a > custom. Has anyone ever encountered this? > > It has also been said that this custom was the source of the Spanish word > "encinta," meaning pregnant, despite the fact that it is derived from Latin > and has cognates in both French and Italian. > > Incidentally, the belt was originally purple and has turned black with time. > > Stafford Poole > SPoole8257 at aol.com > From mdmorris at indiana.edu Tue Nov 23 16:53:07 1999 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:53:07 -0700 Subject: Aztec pregnancy Message-ID: Below are three letters from Tlaxcala. The first is a fragment of one from 1752 which includes the "inquixic" and XAXAC expressions that have been troubling me. I think perhaps "inquixic" is ixquich ic. I am stumped on XAXAC, which is a shame because the word is both underlined and capitalized in the original. The following two are letters from 1810 which I find interesting. Sincerely, Mark Morris Yhua- yeh aprobados cate- ytehpa yn D pasql a:sico yalhua ynCoreo o"quimonquiltizino yn Ds tepezin otictlaca quitiq- yn Dn Pasql Axcan otitlatitlanq- coreo Cuitlaxcuapan ynhauc yn Sr. Sossa yhu- yn Despacho yca hual moicas yn Sr. Dn ygnacio ballarte Alcalde ordinario ompa Cuiltlaxcuapa yca hual moicas quichihuaqui yn ynfor macion o:motlacuilhuili yn Sr. lozano ma yn Sr. Sossa quiquix tis yni x:ax:ac ynahuatzinco yn Sr. obispo yca qui monahua tilis yn Sr. Ballarte mahualmo icas yCaon ycquali ticate inin sa yxtacasin Mochihua ypanpa ycuac quimachilisq- yn Diabl[o]sti yc ipan ticate ynquixicmona huatilitzino ynteopixcatzintli tlaxcantitla-------------------- Seq Dn Jose Maria Landa Cenca Nicpia paquilistli yc nic mati mitz momaquilia in to tto Ds. ytechicahuali tzin niCan nictitlani sete quihua mocxitlantzinco y ca yn Meliotzin Otimocau que lle Sabado y Nehuatli Ni merino Seq San Bernabe Amaxac notoca Juan Man hernandez tlapuo yn Metz tli de Marzo chicome tona li xihuitli 1810 n.c.t n.m. q. momatzin nimotetequipa no Catzin f1 v Juan Martin hernandez AluaSil Mayor Ata nacio Martin de Nava Oct. 6 de 1810 as Notisio Al Sr teniente del pueblo de Sta ana chauatenpan lla Sr. Dan Franco Fernadez lla Srn Dn tomas Barela ya todos los Comersiantes para el dia 27 de enero or el dia 8" de Fefrero a las sais de la tarde los sitamos contoda su gente qe se tengan por sabido qe tienan las Bidas Bendiadas y los Caudales perdidos qe las Cabesa emas de A Sar de todos los gachu pines y todos los ricos f1 v. qe emos de consumia con todos poreso Bam os lla matar al yndio gobernador llenfin a todos y no Ba A olo Bistos el Coreo enba Jador por qe no aga n lo qe yso ese trasio nero gobernador de prenderlo ypor eso les Abisamos qe se prebengan y Dispon gan Amorir para el Dia qe Sitamos los gahupines primero Mueren el Capitan General de los Reales efersitos de tanpico y tan miagu & opuesta Al Sr. teniente de Sta Ana Chautenpan - ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From gingeriw at stjohns.edu Tue Nov 23 19:38:29 1999 From: gingeriw at stjohns.edu (Gingerich Willard P.) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:38:29 -0700 Subject: Aztec pregnancy Message-ID: Tim Knab included the "Precious Necklace" texts in his 1994 edition of Thelma's translations: A Scattering of Jades. New York: Simon & Schuster/Touchstone, pp. 121-147. WG Willard Gingerich St. John's University 718-990-1442 FAX 718-990-1894 gingeriw at stjohns.edu -----Original Message----- From: Frances Karttunen [SMTP:karttu at nantucket.net] Sent: Monday, November 22, 1999 6:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Aztec pregnancy At least some years ago Thelma Sullivan was the ultimate authority on pregnancy and childbirth among the Mexica. I don't have copies of these articles of hers at hand, but it would be worth looking into them: Sullivan 1966. "Pregnancy, Childbirth, and the Deification of Women Who Died in Childbirth" in Estudios de cultura nahuatl 6: 63-95. Sullivan 1980. "O Precious Necklace, O Quetzal Feather! Aztec Pregnancy and Childbirth Orations" in Alcheringa/Ethnopoetics 4: 38-56. Sullivan 1982. "Tlazolteotl-Ixcuina: The Great Spinner and Weaver" in The Art and Iconography of Late Post-Classic Central Mexico (E. Boone, ed): 7-35. ---------- >From: SPoole8257 at aol.com >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Aztec pregnancy >Date: Mon, Nov 22, 1999, 5:24 PM > > Dear Neteros: > > There is an assertion that is rather often made about the image of Our Lady > of Guadalupe of Mexico, that is, that the black belt around the Virgin's > waist was a Nahua symbol of pregnancy. I have searched various sources from > Sahagun to Soustelle to more recent ones and have not found mention of such a > custom. Has anyone ever encountered this? > > It has also been said that this custom was the source of the Spanish word > "encinta," meaning pregnant, despite the fact that it is derived from Latin > and has cognates in both French and Italian. > > Incidentally, the belt was originally purple and has turned black with time. > > Stafford Poole > SPoole8257 at aol.com > From leonelhermida at netc.pt Thu Nov 25 17:01:07 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 10:01:07 -0700 Subject: Does anyone know these?... Message-ID: Does anybody know at least any of the English (or Spanish) names of the following animals (those marked 'b' are birds)? All were found in context, but none appears in the FC Word List by Joe Campbell... cuitlamiztli (kind of cougar? or other animal?) azcalcoyotl xelhuaztli ('cloven one...') tepanchichi tepanmamal calxoch ('xochcatl' is a small frog...) camaxihxiqui ixmatlatototl b tolcomoctli b amanacoche b yacatexotli b tzitzihua b nacaztzone b tzonyayauhqui b achalalactli b huactli b (should be common with this short name...) tachitohuia b tapalcatzotzonqui b tlathuicicitli b nochtototl b coyoltototl b atoncuepotli b I would not post them if I had not looked them up without success... Thanks for the help. Best regards, Leonel From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Nov 26 00:49:35 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 17:49:35 -0700 Subject: Does anyone know these?... Message-ID: I agree with Leonel's implicit enjoyment of Book 11 of the Florentine= =20 Codex and Professor Dibble's explicit liking of it. The vocabulary supplie= d=20 below benefits from re-consultation with it, harvesting the xochicualli of = the=20 years of labor invested by Professors Dibble and Anderson. Best regards Joe cuitlamiztli=20 same as itzcuincuani (dog-eater) =3D ringtail azcalcoyotl kind of coyote xelhuaztli=20 peccary tepanchichi mouse tepanmamal mouse calxoch =20 mouse camaxihxiqui pocket gopher ixmatlatototl b a bird that goes "campa uee" (the name imples that it looks like it has a net on its face) tolcomoctli b American bittern amanacoche b ?? yacatexotli b ruddy duck tzitzihua b pintail (duck) nacaztzone b eared grebe (same as yacapitzahuac) tzonyayauhqui b kind of duck (black head, white breast, "tastes like bacon") achalalactli b Stroptoceryle alcyon alcyon (cf. Martin del Campo) huactli b black-crowned night heron or laughing falcon tachitohuia b small green bird that goes "tachitohuia" =20 tapalcatzotzonqui b same as chichtli or tlalchicuahtli =3D barn owl tlathuicicitli b wren (tlathui =3D [to] dawn; -cicitli?)=20 [sings before dawn -- awakens people] nochtototl b common house finch [eats tuna; has a red head] coyoltototl b same as acatzanatl (tzanatl =3D grackle) [sings like a bell; lives in the reeds] =20 atoncuepotli b same as ateponaztli or atapalcatl =3D American bittern [when it sings, it sounds as if someone beat the two-toned drum] =20 occurrences in the Florentine Codex: (there are a few bits of chaff included in this list) achalalactli** =20 1. *achalalactli*:. achalalactli (b.11 f.4 p.38).=20 =20 2. inic motocayotia *achalalactli*, iuh tlatoa: cha, cha cha, chuchu, chala chala, chala:. it is named achalalactli because it sings thus: cha, chacha, chuchu, chala chala chala. (b.11 f.4 p.38).=20 =20 antotlatzitzihuan** =20 3. oc cenca amehuan namechnotza, namechtzatzilia in antecpipiltotonti: auh in *antotlatzitzihuan* in anpipiltin, in antlatocapipiltin: in anociuhtia, in mixitl, in tlapatl, in teihuinti, in teixmalacacho in octli, in ayectli, in acualli:. "i speak, i cry out especially to you, ye who are lords, and ye who are our uncles, ye who are noblemen, ye who are the sons of rulers, that ye leave alone the jimson weed, which maketh one drunk, confoundeth one; the pulque, which is evil, bad. (b.6 f.6 p.70).=20 =20 atoncuepotli** =20 4. ihuan itoca *atoncuepotli*, ihuan ateponaztli:. also its name is atoncuepotli and ateponaztli. (b.11 f.4 p.33).=20 =20 5. inic motocayotia *atoncuepotli*: inic tlatoa zan cen, in hualcaquizti; xittoncueponi, cenca caquizti.. for this reason is it called atoncuepotli: when it sings, it is clearly heard to explode; it is very loud. (b.11 f.4 p.33).=20 =20 6. *atoncuepotli*: no itoca atapalcatl,. the atoncuepotli is also called atapalcatl. (b.11 f.6 p.57).=20 =20 7. inic motocayotia *atoncuepotli*: inic tlatoa, iuhquin aca teponazoa.. it is named atoncuepotli because, when it sings, it is as if someone beat the two-toned drum. (b.11 f.6 p.57).=20 =20 atzitzihua** =20 8. quinamaca in chilchotl, in milchilli, in tonalchilli, in *atzitzihua*, in tochmilcayotl, in huaxtepecayotl, in michhuacayotl, in anahuacayotl, in cuextecayotl, in chichimecayotl,. he sells green chilis, sharp-pointed red chilis, a late variety, those from atzitziuacan, tochmilco, muaxtepec, michoacan, anauac, the muaxteca, the chichimeca. (b.10 f.4 p.67).=20 =20 atzitzihuacayotl** =20 9. tonalchilli, *atzitzihuacayotl* chilli, chiltecpin, texiochilli, chilcoztli, cohuixcayotl chilli,. hot chilis, chili from atzitziuacan, small chilis, chili powder, yellow chili, chili from the couixca, (b.8 f.4 p.68).=20 =20 azcalcoyotl** =20 10. *azcalcoyotl*:. azcalcoyotl (b.11 f.1 p.8).=20 =20 11. inic motocayotia *azcalcoyotl*: in ihcuac choca: iuhquin centzontli coyotl, choca, cequi tlatomahua, cequi tlapitzahua, cequi pipitzca.. for this reason is it called azcalcoyotl: when it howls, it howls like many coyotes--some in a full voice, some in a high-pitched one, some in a wail. (b.11 f.1 p.8).=20 =20 azcalxochitl** =20 12. *azcalxochitl*, iuhquin tolin. the azcalxochitl is like the tolin. (b.11 f.20 p.209).=20 =20 calxoch** =20 13. ihuan itoca tepanchichi, ihuan itoca tepanmamal, ihuan itoca *calxoch*.. its names are also tepanchichi, and tepanmamal, and calxoch. (b.11 f.2 p.17).=20 =20 14. inic motocayotia *calxoch*: ipanpa in zan mochipa calitic nemi.. it is called calxoch because it always lives in the house. (b.11 f.2 p.17).=20 =20 camaxihxiqui** =20 15. inic motocayotia *camaxihxiqui*: in manel ce hanega etl, mochi quitquiz, mochi quizacaz.. as for its being named camaxixiqui, even if it is a bushel of beans, it takes all of it, it carries off all of it. (b.11 f.2 p.18).=20 =20 camaxiquipile** =20 16. *camaxiquipile*, anozo camaxixiqui:. it is the cheek-bagged one; or the cheek-bags. (b.11 f.2 p.18).=20 =20 camaxitecuilli** =20 17. *camaxitecuilli*. vocal cords (b.10 f.6 p.108b).=20 =20 camaxixiqui** =20 18. camaxiquipile, anozo *camaxixiqui*:. it is the cheek-bagged one; or the cheek-bags. (b.11 f.2 p.18).=20 =20 coyoltototl** =20 19. *coyoltototl*:. coyoltototl (b.11 f.6 p.50).=20 =20 20. ic motocayotia *coyoltototl*:. hence is it named coyoltototl. (b.11 f.6 p.50).=20 =20 cuitlamiztli** =20 21. *cuitlamiztli*:. cuitlamiztli (b.11 f.1 p.6).=20 =20 22. inic motocayotia, *cuitlamiztli*, in ocacic centetl mazatl, quipehualtia. as for its being named cuitlamiztli: when it reaches a deer, it attacks it. (b.11 f.1 p.6).=20 =20 23. ic mitoa *cuitlamiztli*: ipampa xixicuin ihuan ipampa in amo motlatia. hence it is called cuitlamiztli; because it is a glutton, and because it does not hide itself away. (b.11 f.1 p.6).=20 =20 24. ca zan ye no yeh in *cuitlamiztli*:. it is the same as the cuitlamiztli. (b.11 f.1 p.6).=20 =20 25. inic motocayotia *cuitlamiztli*: in yohualtica huallauh in cahcalla:. as for its being named [itzcuinquani], at night it goes forth to the settlements. (b.11 f.1 p.6).=20 =20 =2E.. =20 huactli** =20 29. ic ome capitulo, oncan mitoa: in tetzahuitl catca, in zan necoc tlachiaya: in iuhqui catca, in ihcuac quicaquia, in tzatzia *huactli*: ihuan in tlein quichihuaya, pochteca in ihcuac cana iuhqui otlica, in impan mochihuaya in anozo impan tzatzia.. second chapter, in which is related the evil omen which they regarded in two ways: so it was when they heard that the white hooded hawk cried out; and what the merchants did when somewhere on the road such befell them; perhaps it cried out at them. (b.5 f.1 p.153).=20 =20 30. no ihuan, quitetzammatia: in ihcuac aca ipan huehuetzca, *huactli*:. likewise they considered it an omen of evil when the white hooded hawk screeched at someone. (b.5 f.1 p.153).=20 =20 31. auh intla pochteca, oztomeca, nenemini: iuhqui impan omochiuh, in impan ohuehuetzcac *huactli*: quitoaya. ahzo, ye itla, commonamictizque: ahzo ye ontlaatoctizque:. and if it were merchants, vanguard merchants, wayfarers, whom it befell that at them the white hooded hawk laughed, they said that perhaps now they should come upon something, or their goods would be carried away by the water, (b.5 f.1 p.153).=20 =20 32. auh aocac ontlamati, aocac itlamatia, intla iuhqui impan mochihua, in iuhqui in oquintetzahui *huactli*.. but no one worried or speculated whether it might befall them as the white hooded hawk had foreboded to them. (b.5 f.1 p.155).=20 =20 33. *huactli*:. black-crowned night heron (b.11 f.4 p.39).=20 =20 34. inic motocayotia *huactli*: iuhqui in huactli itlatol, quichihua: huac, huac:. it is named uactli because its song is like uactli: it makes [the sound] uac, uac. (b.11 f.4 p.39).=20 =20 35. inic motocayotia huactli: iuhqui in *huactli* itlatol, quichihua: huac, huac:. it is named uactli because its song is like uactli: it makes [the sound] uac, uac. (b.11 f.4 p.39).=20 =20 36. inin *huactli*: in omoteneuh cihuatl.. what is told of this black-crowned night heron [applies to] the hen. (b.11 f.4 p.39).=20 =20 37. auh in oquichtli *huactli*: amo cenca huei, zan cualton ihuan zan mochi ixnextic in ihhuiyo.. but the male blackcrowned night heron is not very large --only of average size, and all of its feathers are ashen. (b.11 f.4 p.39).=20 =20 38. *huactli*:. laughing falcon (b.11 f.5 p.42).=20 =20 huahcalxochyo** =20 39. iyetlachihua, ca tlamatiloa, huel quinamictia, xochyo huei nacazio, chapopohyo, *huahcalxochyo*, tlilxochyo, mecaxochyo, nanacayo, poyomayo, itziyeyo.. [the seller] prepares tobacco, rubs it in his hands, mixes it well with flowers, with uei nacaztli, with bitumen, with uacalxochitl, with tlilxochitl, with mecaxochitl, with mushrooms, with poyomatli, with "obsidian tobacco." (b.10 f.5 p.88).=20 =20 icamaxitecuil** =20 40. in *icamaxitecuil*: ontlamantli xixiquipilteuhca:. its pouches are like two bags. (b.11 f.2 p.18).=20 =20 ixmatlatototl** =20 41. *ixmatlatototl*:. ixmatlatototl (b.11 f.3 p.26).=20 =20 42. inic motocayotia *ixmatlatototl*: achi huel iuhqui in totlatol titlaca,. it is called ixmatlatototl because [its song] is almost like our own speech. (b.11 f.3 p.26).=20 =20 mopitzitzihuan** =20 43. huel xonmixtzayana, quenin toltecati, quenin amantecati, quenin tlatlamachicuiloa, quenin tlatlapalpoa, quenin tlatlapalaquia, in *mopitzitzihuan*, in motecuiyotzitzihuan, in toteucyohuan, in cihuapipilti:. open thine eyes well as to how to be an artisan, how to be a feather worker; how to judge colors; how to apply colors [to please] thy sisters, thy ladies, our honored ones, the noblewomen. (b.6 f.8 p.96).=20 =20 motecuiyotzitzihuan** =20 44. huel xonmixtzayana, quenin toltecati, quenin amantecati, quenin tlatlamachicuiloa, quenin tlatlapalpoa, quenin tlatlapalaquia, in mopitzitzihuan, in *motecuiyotzitzihuan*, in toteucyohuan, in cihuapipilti:. open thine eyes well as to how to be an artisan, how to be a feather worker; how to judge colors; how to apply colors [to please] thy sisters, thy ladies, our honored ones, the noblewomen. (b.6 f.8 p.96).=20 =20 45. yoyin in otechmozcaltilitiaque, in *motecuiyotzitzihuan*, in toteucyohuan in cihuapipilti, in ilamatlaca in tzoniztaque, in cuaiztaque:. thy lords, our lords, the noble women, the old women, the white-haired ones, the white-headed ones reared us in such a manner as this. (b.6 f.9 p.101).=20 =20 motlachihualtzitzihuan** =20 46. auh in quihuapahua, in quimizcaltia in *motlachihualtzitzihuan*: tlacuitlaticehua, tlacuecuechca:. "and those whom they rear, whom they nourish, thy creations, are all blanched, all trembling in fear." (b.6 f.1 p.8).=20 =20 motlatzitzihuan** =20 47. ca izcatqui in intzontecon in imelchiquiuh ipatiuh omochiuh, in *motlatzitzihuan*, pochteca, hiyaque in nahualoztomeca, in teyahualoani in yaopan, in aintlaaxcahuil, in intonehuiliz, in inchichinaquiliz omochiuh, in aintlaacuiuh,. behold what became the reward of the heads [and] breasts of thy beloved uncles, the outpost merchants, the disguised merchants, the spying merchants in warlike places: this which was not theirs [but] became [the reward] of their starvation, their fatigue. (b.9 f.1 p.5).=20 =20 48. ca oquichiuhque in intequiuh in *motlatzitzihuan*, in mexica, in pochteca, in oztomeca:. for thy uncles, the mexicans, the merchants, the vanguard merchants, have fulfilled their charge. (b.9 f.1 p.6).=20 =20 49. ca cequintin ipan omictiloque, oquitzauctiaque in *motlatzitzihuan*, nahualoztomeca.. some were slain because of it; they ambushed thy beloved uncles, the disguised merchants. (b.9 f.2 p.23).=20 =20 nacaztzone** =20 50. ihuan *nacaztzone*,. also [it is called] nacaztzone. (b.11 f.4 p.37).=20 =20 51. auh inic motocayotia *nacaztzone*: achi huiac in ihhuiyo, in inacaztlan manni, icuexcochtlampa itztimani: cuappachtic,. and it is named nacaztzone because its feathers which are over its ears, inclined toward the back of its neck, are somewhat long, tawny. (b.11 f.4 p.37).=20 =20 nicxelhuazhuia** =20 52. *nicxelhuazhuia*. I part it (b.10 f.6 p.100b).=20 =20 nochtototl** =20 53. *nochtototl*:. nochtototl (b.11 f.5 p.48).=20 =20 54. ic motocayotia *nochtototl*, in cuachichiltic; ihuan itzintenpan chichiltic. oc cenca ipampa; in huel itlacual nochtli.. it is named nochtototl because the head is chili-red and its rump is bordered with chili-red; especially because its real food is tuna. (b.11 f.5 p.48).=20 =20 notlatzitzihuane** =20 55. quimilhui. *notlatzitzihuane*, pochtecae, oztomecae: oanquimihiyohuilti= que,. he said to them: [o my beloved uncles, o merchants, o vanguard merchants, you have suffered fatigue. (b.9 f.1 p.5).=20 =20 56. auh niman quimilhui. *notlatzitzihuane*: oanquihiyohuique, huanquiciauhque:. and then he said to them: "o my beloved uncles, you have suffered fatigue; you are spent." (b.9 f.1 p.5).=20 =20 tachitohuia** =20 57. *tachitohuia*:. tachitohuia (b.11 f.5 p.46).=20 =20 58. inic motocayotia *tachitohuia*: ca itlatol ca quitoa inin tlatolli: tachitohuia.. it is named tachitohuia because of its song, because its song says tachitohuia. (b.11 f.5 p.46).=20 =20 59. inic motocayotia tachitohuia: ca itlatol ca quitoa inin tlatolli: *tachitohuia*.. it is named tachitohuia because of its song, because its song says tachitohuia. (b.11 f.5 p.46).=20 =20 60. in aquin quitta itloc yatiuh, tlatotiuh: quichiuhtiuh *tachitohuia*.. whomever it sees, it comes along with him, singing as it goes; it goes along making [the sound] tachitohuia. (b.11 f.5 p.46).=20 =20 tapalcatzotzonqui** =20 61. *tapalcatzotzonqui*:. tapalcatzotzonqui (b.11 f.5 p.47).=20 =20 62. ic motocayotia *tapalcatzotzonqui*: in itlatol, ca iuhquinma aca tapalcatl, quitzotzona: in manoce quicacalatza,. it is named tapalcatzotzonqui because its call is as if one struck potsherds, or rattled them. (b.11 f.5 p.47).=20 =20 teccizhuacalxochitl** =20 63. *teccizhuacalxochitl*:. teccizuacalxochitl (b.11 f.20 p.209).=20 =20 tehuicalxoch** =20 64. tlacaciuhqui, techannemini, *tehuicalxoch*, tehuihuicani, tetlalochtocani:. it is domesticated, a house-dweller, a favorite companion, a constant companion, which follows running. (b.11 f.2 p.16).=20 =20 tepanchichi** =20 65. ihuan itoca *tepanchichi*, ihuan itoca tepanmamal, ihuan itoca calxoch.. its names are also tepanchichi, and tepanmamal, and calxoch. (b.11 f.2 p.17).=20 =20 66. inic motocayotia *tepanchichi*: ipampa in tepamitl iitic, in itech nemi.. it is called tepanchichi because it lives in the walls [and] by the walls. (b.11 f.2 p.17).=20 =20 tepanmamal** =20 67. ihuan itoca tepanchichi, ihuan itoca *tepanmamal*, ihuan itoca calxoch.. its names are also tepanchichi, and tepanmamal, and calxoch. (b.11 f.2 p.17).=20 =20 68. inic motocayotia *tepanmamal*: ipanpa in quicohcoyonia, in quiquihquizoa tepamitl, in caltechtli.. it is called tepanmamal because it bores holes in, it penetrates walls--the house walls. (b.11 f.2 p.17).=20 =20 tepilcamaxitecuilli** =20 69. *tepilcamaxitecuilli*. labia (b.10 f.7 p.124a).=20 =20 tlapalhuacalxochitl** =20 70. *tlapalhuacalxochitl*;. tlapaluacalxochitl (b.11 f.21 p.209).=20 =20 tlathuicicitli** =20 71. *tlathuicicitli*:. wren (b.11 f.5 p.47).=20 =20 72. inic motocayotia *tlathuicicitli*: itlatol.. it is named tlathuicicitli because of its song. (b.11 f.5 p.47).=20 =20 73. inic caquizti itlatol: iuhquinma quitoa. *tlathuicicitli*:. as it sounds its song, it is as if it says tlathuicicitli. (b.11 f.5 p.47).=20 =20 tocamaxitecuil** =20 74. *tocamaxitecuil*. our vocal cords (b.10 f.6 p.108b).=20 =20 tochnacazhuacalxochitl** =20 75. *tochnacazhuacalxochitl*,. tochnacazuacalxochitl (b.11 f.21 p.209).=20 =20 tolcomoctli** =20 76. *tolcomoctli*:. american bittern (b.11 f.4 p.33).=20 =20 77. auh inic motocayotia *tolcomoctli*; inic tlatoa, iuhquin oncomoni.. and for this reason is it called tolcomoctli: as it sings, it resounds. (b.11 f.4 p.33).=20 =20 78. in yehuatl *tolcomoctli*: zan mochipa nican nemi tolla, nican mopilhuatia:. this american bittern always lives here in the reeds; here it raises its young. (b.11 f.4 p.33).=20 =20 79. in yehuatl in *tolcomoctli*: in yehuantin atlaca, mochipa inneixcuitil mochihua: in ihcuac cenca tlatoa, in mochipa cenyohual: ic quimati, ca ye huitz in quiyahuitl, cenca quiyahuiz: ihuan cenca onyezque in mimichtin, in ye mochintin atlan nemi.. for these water folk this american bittern is always a portent; when it sings a great deal, always all night, they know thereby that rains will come, it will rain much, and there will be many fish --all manner of water life. (b.11 f.4 p.33).=20 =20 tzihuactli** =20 80. auh in ompa onoque, in yaomicque necuametl, *tzihuactli*, mizquitla;. and where the war dead were, there were the magueys, the tziuactli plants, the mesquite groves. (b.3 f.3 p.49).=20 =20 81. izcatqui in intlacual chichimeca: nopalli, nochtli, cimatl, tlanelhuatl, *tzihuactli*, necuametl, iczoxochitl, iczoneneuctli, meneuctli, xiconeuctli, pipioli, cuauhneuctli: ihuan in tlein quiximati tlanelhuatl, in tlallan onoc, ihuan in ye ixquich nacatl, tochin, coatl, mazatl, tecuani: ihuan ixquich in patlantinemi.. the following is the food of the chichimeca: nopal, tuna, roots of the cimatl herb, tziuactli cactus, honey, maguey, yucca flowers, yucca sap, maguey sap, bee honey, wild bees, wild honey; and the roots of which they had knowledge, which were in the ground; and all the meats --rabbit, snake, deer, wild animals; and all [things] which flew. (b.10 f.10 p.174).=20 =20 82. *tzihuactli*. tziuactli (b.11 f.21 p.218).=20 =20 83. itoca, *tzihuactli*. its name is tziuactli. (b.11 f.21 p.218).=20 =20 tzitzihua** =20 84. *tzitzihua*:. pintail (b.11 f.4 p.36).=20 =20 85. inic motocayotia *tzitzihua*: in itzintenpan ixhuatimani, in ihhuiyo: in inepantla in icuitlapil, cenca iztac, ome mani, zan monepanotimani,. it is named tzitziua because of the feathers growing from its rump; among its tail feathers are two very white ones, located one above the other. (b.11 f.4 p.36).=20 =20 tzonyayauhqui** =20 86. *tzonyayauhqui*: cuatliltic, pepepetzca, pepetlani in icua ihhuiyo.. the head [feathers] are dark green. the head is black. its head feathers are resplendent, shimmering. (b.11 f.3 p.26).=20 =20 87. in *tzonyayauhqui*: in xomotl, in tezoloctli: huei, atlan chaneque;. the mallard, the xomotl, the te^=C7oloctli are sea-dwellers. (b.11 f.3 p.27).=20 =20 88. *tzonyayauhqui*:. tzonyayauhqui (b.11 f.4 p.37).=20 =20 89. inic motocayotia *tzonyayauhqui*, in itzontecon cenca tliltic, huel iuhquin tecolli, iquechtlan ontlantica:. it is named tzonyayauhqui because its head is very black, much like charcoal, reaching to its neck. (b.11 f.4 p.37).=20 =20 90. canauhtli: zan incentoca, in eliztac, in *tzonyayauhqui*, in tezoloctli:. duck is the collective name for the white-breast, the mallard, the te^=C7oloctli. (b.11 f.6 p.57).=20 =20 xelhuaznanacatl** =20 91. *xelhuaznanacatl*,. xehuaznanacatl (b.11 f.13 p.131).=20 =20 xelhuazquiza** =20 92. telpochtotolin, ichpochtotolin: maci, macontia, *xelhuazquiza*.. the young turkey cocks, the young turkey hens mature, form air-sacs, develop wattles. (b.11 f.6 p.54).=20 =20 xelhuaztli** =20 93. yehuatl in motocayotia, *xelhuaztli*.. this one is called [the cloven one.] (b.11 f.2 p.10).=20 =20 94. xexeltic, mimiltic, tzitziquiltic, iuhquin *xelhuaztli* ic ca.. it is divided, cylindrical, scarified, like something split. (b.11 f.13 p.131).=20 =20 yacatexotli** =20 95. ihuan *yacatexotli*,. also [it is called] yacatexotli. (b.11 f.4 p.36).=20 =20 96. auh inic motocayotia *yacatexotli*: in iten texotic, patlactontli:. it is named yacatexotli because its bill is light blue, small, wide. (b.11 f.4 p.36).=20 From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Nov 26 02:58:30 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 19:58:30 -0700 Subject: Does anyone know these?...(replacement copy) Message-ID: Please excuse my last ugly version of this message. The fact is, knowing that a problem existed, I had taken the precaution of sending it first to my wife [Mary Clayton] to see if the horrendous =20 =20 =20 =20 .... developed. She sent it back and **wasn't** there when I received it and sent it to Nahuat-l. That would seem to indicate that the spirits inhabiting the umt.edu and indiana.edu servers interact in a curious and whimsical way. Here is a clean copy (I hope, I hope, I hope): I agree with Leonel's implicit enjoyment of Book 11 of the Florentine Codex and Professor Dibble's explicit liking of it. The vocabulary supplied below benefits from re-consultation with it, harvesting the xochicualli of the years of labor invested by Professors Dibble and Anderson. Best regards Joe cuitlamiztli same as itzcuincuani (dog-eater) = ringtail azcalcoyotl kind of coyote xelhuaztli peccary tepanchichi mouse tepanmamal mouse calxoch mouse camaxihxiqui pocket gopher ixmatlatototl b a bird that goes "campa uee" (the name imples that it looks like it has a net on its face) tolcomoctli b American bittern amanacoche b ?? yacatexotli b ruddy duck tzitzihua b pintail (duck) nacaztzone b eared grebe (same as yacapitzahuac) tzonyayauhqui b kind of duck (black head, white breast, "tastes like bacon") achalalactli b Stroptoceryle alcyon alcyon (cf. Martin del Campo) huactli b black-crowned night heron or laughing falcon tachitohuia b small green bird that goes "tachitohuia" tapalcatzotzonqui b same as chichtli or tlalchicuahtli = barn owl tlathuicicitli b wren (tlathui = [to] dawn; -cicitli?) [sings before dawn -- awakens people] nochtototl b common house finch [eats tuna; has a red head] coyoltototl b same as acatzanatl (tzanatl = grackle) [sings like a bell; lives in the reeds] atoncuepotli b same as ateponaztli or atapalcatl = American bittern [when it sings, it sounds as if someone beat the two-toned drum] occurrences in the Florentine Codex: (there are a few bits of chaff included in this list) achalalactli** 1. *achalalactli*:. achalalactli (b.11 f.4 p.38). 2. inic motocayotia *achalalactli*, iuh tlatoa: cha, cha cha, chuchu, chala chala, chala:. it is named achalalactli because it sings thus: cha, chacha, chuchu, chala chala chala. (b.11 f.4 p.38). antotlatzitzihuan** 3. oc cenca amehuan namechnotza, namechtzatzilia in antecpipiltotonti: auh in *antotlatzitzihuan* in anpipiltin, in antlatocapipiltin: in anociuhtia, in mixitl, in tlapatl, in teihuinti, in teixmalacacho in octli, in ayectli, in acualli:. "i speak, i cry out especially to you, ye who are lords, and ye who are our uncles, ye who are noblemen, ye who are the sons of rulers, that ye leave alone the jimson weed, which maketh one drunk, confoundeth one; the pulque, which is evil, bad. (b.6 f.6 p.70). atoncuepotli** 4. ihuan itoca *atoncuepotli*, ihuan ateponaztli:. also its name is atoncuepotli and ateponaztli. (b.11 f.4 p.33). 5. inic motocayotia *atoncuepotli*: inic tlatoa zan cen, in hualcaquizti; xittoncueponi, cenca caquizti.. for this reason is it called atoncuepotli: when it sings, it is clearly heard to explode; it is very loud. (b.11 f.4 p.33). 6. *atoncuepotli*: no itoca atapalcatl,. the atoncuepotli is also called atapalcatl. (b.11 f.6 p.57). 7. inic motocayotia *atoncuepotli*: inic tlatoa, iuhquin aca teponazoa.. it is named atoncuepotli because, when it sings, it is as if someone beat the two-toned drum. (b.11 f.6 p.57). atzitzihua** 8. quinamaca in chilchotl, in milchilli, in tonalchilli, in *atzitzihua*, in tochmilcayotl, in huaxtepecayotl, in michhuacayotl, in anahuacayotl, in cuextecayotl, in chichimecayotl,. he sells green chilis, sharp-pointed red chilis, a late variety, those from atzitziuacan, tochmilco, muaxtepec, michoacan, anauac, the muaxteca, the chichimeca. (b.10 f.4 p.67). atzitzihuacayotl** 9. tonalchilli, *atzitzihuacayotl* chilli, chiltecpin, texiochilli, chilcoztli, cohuixcayotl chilli,. hot chilis, chili from atzitziuacan, small chilis, chili powder, yellow chili, chili from the couixca, (b.8 f.4 p.68). azcalcoyotl** 10. *azcalcoyotl*:. azcalcoyotl (b.11 f.1 p.8). 11. inic motocayotia *azcalcoyotl*: in ihcuac choca: iuhquin centzontli coyotl, choca, cequi tlatomahua, cequi tlapitzahua, cequi pipitzca.. for this reason is it called azcalcoyotl: when it howls, it howls like many coyotes--some in a full voice, some in a high-pitched one, some in a wail. (b.11 f.1 p.8). azcalxochitl** 12. *azcalxochitl*, iuhquin tolin. the azcalxochitl is like the tolin. (b.11 f.20 p.209). calxoch** 13. ihuan itoca tepanchichi, ihuan itoca tepanmamal, ihuan itoca *calxoch*.. its names are also tepanchichi, and tepanmamal, and calxoch. (b.11 f.2 p.17). 14. inic motocayotia *calxoch*: ipanpa in zan mochipa calitic nemi.. it is called calxoch because it always lives in the house. (b.11 f.2 p.17). camaxihxiqui** 15. inic motocayotia *camaxihxiqui*: in manel ce hanega etl, mochi quitquiz, mochi quizacaz.. as for its being named camaxixiqui, even if it is a bushel of beans, it takes all of it, it carries off all of it. (b.11 f.2 p.18). camaxiquipile** 16. *camaxiquipile*, anozo camaxixiqui:. it is the cheek-bagged one; or the cheek-bags. (b.11 f.2 p.18). camaxitecuilli** 17. *camaxitecuilli*. vocal cords (b.10 f.6 p.108b). camaxixiqui** 18. camaxiquipile, anozo *camaxixiqui*:. it is the cheek-bagged one; or the cheek-bags. (b.11 f.2 p.18). coyoltototl** 19. *coyoltototl*:. coyoltototl (b.11 f.6 p.50). 20. ic motocayotia *coyoltototl*:. hence is it named coyoltototl. (b.11 f.6 p.50). cuitlamiztli** 21. *cuitlamiztli*:. cuitlamiztli (b.11 f.1 p.6). 22. inic motocayotia, *cuitlamiztli*, in ocacic centetl mazatl, quipehualtia. as for its being named cuitlamiztli: when it reaches a deer, it attacks it. (b.11 f.1 p.6). 23. ic mitoa *cuitlamiztli*: ipampa xixicuin ihuan ipampa in amo motlatia. hence it is called cuitlamiztli; because it is a glutton, and because it does not hide itself away. (b.11 f.1 p.6). 24. ca zan ye no yeh in *cuitlamiztli*:. it is the same as the cuitlamiztli. (b.11 f.1 p.6). 25. inic motocayotia *cuitlamiztli*: in yohualtica huallauh in cahcalla:. as for its being named [itzcuinquani], at night it goes forth to the settlements. (b.11 f.1 p.6). ... huactli** 29. ic ome capitulo, oncan mitoa: in tetzahuitl catca, in zan necoc tlachiaya: in iuhqui catca, in ihcuac quicaquia, in tzatzia *huactli*: ihuan in tlein quichihuaya, pochteca in ihcuac cana iuhqui otlica, in impan mochihuaya in anozo impan tzatzia.. second chapter, in which is related the evil omen which they regarded in two ways: so it was when they heard that the white hooded hawk cried out; and what the merchants did when somewhere on the road such befell them; perhaps it cried out at them. (b.5 f.1 p.153). 30. no ihuan, quitetzammatia: in ihcuac aca ipan huehuetzca, *huactli*:. likewise they considered it an omen of evil when the white hooded hawk screeched at someone. (b.5 f.1 p.153). 31. auh intla pochteca, oztomeca, nenemini: iuhqui impan omochiuh, in impan ohuehuetzcac *huactli*: quitoaya. ahzo, ye itla, commonamictizque: ahzo ye ontlaatoctizque:. and if it were merchants, vanguard merchants, wayfarers, whom it befell that at them the white hooded hawk laughed, they said that perhaps now they should come upon something, or their goods would be carried away by the water, (b.5 f.1 p.153). 32. auh aocac ontlamati, aocac itlamatia, intla iuhqui impan mochihua, in iuhqui in oquintetzahui *huactli*.. but no one worried or speculated whether it might befall them as the white hooded hawk had foreboded to them. (b.5 f.1 p.155). 33. *huactli*:. black-crowned night heron (b.11 f.4 p.39). 34. inic motocayotia *huactli*: iuhqui in huactli itlatol, quichihua: huac, huac:. it is named uactli because its song is like uactli: it makes [the sound] uac, uac. (b.11 f.4 p.39). 35. inic motocayotia huactli: iuhqui in *huactli* itlatol, quichihua: huac, huac:. it is named uactli because its song is like uactli: it makes [the sound] uac, uac. (b.11 f.4 p.39). 36. inin *huactli*: in omoteneuh cihuatl.. what is told of this black-crowned night heron [applies to] the hen. (b.11 f.4 p.39). 37. auh in oquichtli *huactli*: amo cenca huei, zan cualton ihuan zan mochi ixnextic in ihhuiyo.. but the male blackcrowned night heron is not very large --only of average size, and all of its feathers are ashen. (b.11 f.4 p.39). 38. *huactli*:. laughing falcon (b.11 f.5 p.42). huahcalxochyo** 39. iyetlachihua, ca tlamatiloa, huel quinamictia, xochyo huei nacazio, chapopohyo, *huahcalxochyo*, tlilxochyo, mecaxochyo, nanacayo, poyomayo, itziyeyo.. [the seller] prepares tobacco, rubs it in his hands, mixes it well with flowers, with uei nacaztli, with bitumen, with uacalxochitl, with tlilxochitl, with mecaxochitl, with mushrooms, with poyomatli, with "obsidian tobacco." (b.10 f.5 p.88). icamaxitecuil** 40. in *icamaxitecuil*: ontlamantli xixiquipilteuhca:. its pouches are like two bags. (b.11 f.2 p.18). ixmatlatototl** 41. *ixmatlatototl*:. ixmatlatototl (b.11 f.3 p.26). 42. inic motocayotia *ixmatlatototl*: achi huel iuhqui in totlatol titlaca,. it is called ixmatlatototl because [its song] is almost like our own speech. (b.11 f.3 p.26). mopitzitzihuan** 43. huel xonmixtzayana, quenin toltecati, quenin amantecati, quenin tlatlamachicuiloa, quenin tlatlapalpoa, quenin tlatlapalaquia, in *mopitzitzihuan*, in motecuiyotzitzihuan, in toteucyohuan, in cihuapipilti:. open thine eyes well as to how to be an artisan, how to be a feather worker; how to judge colors; how to apply colors [to please] thy sisters, thy ladies, our honored ones, the noblewomen. (b.6 f.8 p.96). motecuiyotzitzihuan** 44. huel xonmixtzayana, quenin toltecati, quenin amantecati, quenin tlatlamachicuiloa, quenin tlatlapalpoa, quenin tlatlapalaquia, in mopitzitzihuan, in *motecuiyotzitzihuan*, in toteucyohuan, in cihuapipilti:. open thine eyes well as to how to be an artisan, how to be a feather worker; how to judge colors; how to apply colors [to please] thy sisters, thy ladies, our honored ones, the noblewomen. (b.6 f.8 p.96). 45. yoyin in otechmozcaltilitiaque, in *motecuiyotzitzihuan*, in toteucyohuan in cihuapipilti, in ilamatlaca in tzoniztaque, in cuaiztaque:. thy lords, our lords, the noble women, the old women, the white-haired ones, the white-headed ones reared us in such a manner as this. (b.6 f.9 p.101). motlachihualtzitzihuan** 46. auh in quihuapahua, in quimizcaltia in *motlachihualtzitzihuan*: tlacuitlaticehua, tlacuecuechca:. "and those whom they rear, whom they nourish, thy creations, are all blanched, all trembling in fear." (b.6 f.1 p.8). motlatzitzihuan** 47. ca izcatqui in intzontecon in imelchiquiuh ipatiuh omochiuh, in *motlatzitzihuan*, pochteca, hiyaque in nahualoztomeca, in teyahualoani in yaopan, in aintlaaxcahuil, in intonehuiliz, in inchichinaquiliz omochiuh, in aintlaacuiuh,. behold what became the reward of the heads [and] breasts of thy beloved uncles, the outpost merchants, the disguised merchants, the spying merchants in warlike places: this which was not theirs [but] became [the reward] of their starvation, their fatigue. (b.9 f.1 p.5). 48. ca oquichiuhque in intequiuh in *motlatzitzihuan*, in mexica, in pochteca, in oztomeca:. for thy uncles, the mexicans, the merchants, the vanguard merchants, have fulfilled their charge. (b.9 f.1 p.6). 49. ca cequintin ipan omictiloque, oquitzauctiaque in *motlatzitzihuan*, nahualoztomeca.. some were slain because of it; they ambushed thy beloved uncles, the disguised merchants. (b.9 f.2 p.23). nacaztzone** 50. ihuan *nacaztzone*,. also [it is called] nacaztzone. (b.11 f.4 p.37). 51. auh inic motocayotia *nacaztzone*: achi huiac in ihhuiyo, in inacaztlan manni, icuexcochtlampa itztimani: cuappachtic,. and it is named nacaztzone because its feathers which are over its ears, inclined toward the back of its neck, are somewhat long, tawny. (b.11 f.4 p.37). nicxelhuazhuia** 52. *nicxelhuazhuia*. I part it (b.10 f.6 p.100b). nochtototl** 53. *nochtototl*:. nochtototl (b.11 f.5 p.48). 54. ic motocayotia *nochtototl*, in cuachichiltic; ihuan itzintenpan chichiltic. oc cenca ipampa; in huel itlacual nochtli.. it is named nochtototl because the head is chili-red and its rump is bordered with chili-red; especially because its real food is tuna. (b.11 f.5 p.48). notlatzitzihuane** 55. quimilhui. *notlatzitzihuane*, pochtecae, oztomecae: oanquimihiyohuiltique,. he said to them: [o my beloved uncles, o merchants, o vanguard merchants, you have suffered fatigue. (b.9 f.1 p.5). 56. auh niman quimilhui. *notlatzitzihuane*: oanquihiyohuique, huanquiciauhque:. and then he said to them: "o my beloved uncles, you have suffered fatigue; you are spent." (b.9 f.1 p.5). tachitohuia** 57. *tachitohuia*:. tachitohuia (b.11 f.5 p.46). 58. inic motocayotia *tachitohuia*: ca itlatol ca quitoa inin tlatolli: tachitohuia.. it is named tachitohuia because of its song, because its song says tachitohuia. (b.11 f.5 p.46). 59. inic motocayotia tachitohuia: ca itlatol ca quitoa inin tlatolli: *tachitohuia*.. it is named tachitohuia because of its song, because its song says tachitohuia. (b.11 f.5 p.46). 60. in aquin quitta itloc yatiuh, tlatotiuh: quichiuhtiuh *tachitohuia*.. whomever it sees, it comes along with him, singing as it goes; it goes along making [the sound] tachitohuia. (b.11 f.5 p.46). tapalcatzotzonqui** 61. *tapalcatzotzonqui*:. tapalcatzotzonqui (b.11 f.5 p.47). 62. ic motocayotia *tapalcatzotzonqui*: in itlatol, ca iuhquinma aca tapalcatl, quitzotzona: in manoce quicacalatza,. it is named tapalcatzotzonqui because its call is as if one struck potsherds, or rattled them. (b.11 f.5 p.47). teccizhuacalxochitl** 63. *teccizhuacalxochitl*:. teccizuacalxochitl (b.11 f.20 p.209). tehuicalxoch** 64. tlacaciuhqui, techannemini, *tehuicalxoch*, tehuihuicani, tetlalochtocani:. it is domesticated, a house-dweller, a favorite companion, a constant companion, which follows running. (b.11 f.2 p.16). tepanchichi** 65. ihuan itoca *tepanchichi*, ihuan itoca tepanmamal, ihuan itoca calxoch.. its names are also tepanchichi, and tepanmamal, and calxoch. (b.11 f.2 p.17). 66. inic motocayotia *tepanchichi*: ipampa in tepamitl iitic, in itech nemi.. it is called tepanchichi because it lives in the walls [and] by the walls. (b.11 f.2 p.17). tepanmamal** 67. ihuan itoca tepanchichi, ihuan itoca *tepanmamal*, ihuan itoca calxoch.. its names are also tepanchichi, and tepanmamal, and calxoch. (b.11 f.2 p.17). 68. inic motocayotia *tepanmamal*: ipanpa in quicohcoyonia, in quiquihquizoa tepamitl, in caltechtli.. it is called tepanmamal because it bores holes in, it penetrates walls--the house walls. (b.11 f.2 p.17). tepilcamaxitecuilli** 69. *tepilcamaxitecuilli*. labia (b.10 f.7 p.124a). tlapalhuacalxochitl** 70. *tlapalhuacalxochitl*;. tlapaluacalxochitl (b.11 f.21 p.209). tlathuicicitli** 71. *tlathuicicitli*:. wren (b.11 f.5 p.47). 72. inic motocayotia *tlathuicicitli*: itlatol.. it is named tlathuicicitli because of its song. (b.11 f.5 p.47). 73. inic caquizti itlatol: iuhquinma quitoa. *tlathuicicitli*:. as it sounds its song, it is as if it says tlathuicicitli. (b.11 f.5 p.47). tocamaxitecuil** 74. *tocamaxitecuil*. our vocal cords (b.10 f.6 p.108b). tochnacazhuacalxochitl** 75. *tochnacazhuacalxochitl*,. tochnacazuacalxochitl (b.11 f.21 p.209). tolcomoctli** 76. *tolcomoctli*:. american bittern (b.11 f.4 p.33). 77. auh inic motocayotia *tolcomoctli*; inic tlatoa, iuhquin oncomoni.. and for this reason is it called tolcomoctli: as it sings, it resounds. (b.11 f.4 p.33). 78. in yehuatl *tolcomoctli*: zan mochipa nican nemi tolla, nican mopilhuatia:. this american bittern always lives here in the reeds; here it raises its young. (b.11 f.4 p.33). 79. in yehuatl in *tolcomoctli*: in yehuantin atlaca, mochipa inneixcuitil mochihua: in ihcuac cenca tlatoa, in mochipa cenyohual: ic quimati, ca ye huitz in quiyahuitl, cenca quiyahuiz: ihuan cenca onyezque in mimichtin, in ye mochintin atlan nemi.. for these water folk this american bittern is always a portent; when it sings a great deal, always all night, they know thereby that rains will come, it will rain much, and there will be many fish --all manner of water life. (b.11 f.4 p.33). tzihuactli** 80. auh in ompa onoque, in yaomicque necuametl, *tzihuactli*, mizquitla;. and where the war dead were, there were the magueys, the tziuactli plants, the mesquite groves. (b.3 f.3 p.49). 81. izcatqui in intlacual chichimeca: nopalli, nochtli, cimatl, tlanelhuatl, *tzihuactli*, necuametl, iczoxochitl, iczoneneuctli, meneuctli, xiconeuctli, pipioli, cuauhneuctli: ihuan in tlein quiximati tlanelhuatl, in tlallan onoc, ihuan in ye ixquich nacatl, tochin, coatl, mazatl, tecuani: ihuan ixquich in patlantinemi.. the following is the food of the chichimeca: nopal, tuna, roots of the cimatl herb, tziuactli cactus, honey, maguey, yucca flowers, yucca sap, maguey sap, bee honey, wild bees, wild honey; and the roots of which they had knowledge, which were in the ground; and all the meats --rabbit, snake, deer, wild animals; and all [things] which flew. (b.10 f.10 p.174). 82. *tzihuactli*. tziuactli (b.11 f.21 p.218). 83. itoca, *tzihuactli*. its name is tziuactli. (b.11 f.21 p.218). tzitzihua** 84. *tzitzihua*:. pintail (b.11 f.4 p.36). 85. inic motocayotia *tzitzihua*: in itzintenpan ixhuatimani, in ihhuiyo: in inepantla in icuitlapil, cenca iztac, ome mani, zan monepanotimani,. it is named tzitziua because of the feathers growing from its rump; among its tail feathers are two very white ones, located one above the other. (b.11 f.4 p.36). tzonyayauhqui** 86. *tzonyayauhqui*: cuatliltic, pepepetzca, pepetlani in icua ihhuiyo.. the head [feathers] are dark green. the head is black. its head feathers are resplendent, shimmering. (b.11 f.3 p.26). 87. in *tzonyayauhqui*: in xomotl, in tezoloctli: huei, atlan chaneque;. the mallard, the xomotl, the tec,oloctli are sea-dwellers. (b.11 f.3 p.27). 88. *tzonyayauhqui*:. tzonyayauhqui (b.11 f.4 p.37). 89. inic motocayotia *tzonyayauhqui*, in itzontecon cenca tliltic, huel iuhquin tecolli, iquechtlan ontlantica:. it is named tzonyayauhqui because its head is very black, much like charcoal, reaching to its neck. (b.11 f.4 p.37). 90. canauhtli: zan incentoca, in eliztac, in *tzonyayauhqui*, in tezoloctli:. duck is the collective name for the white-breast, the mallard, the tec,oloctli. (b.11 f.6 p.57). xelhuaznanacatl** 91. *xelhuaznanacatl*,. xehuaznanacatl (b.11 f.13 p.131). xelhuazquiza** 92. telpochtotolin, ichpochtotolin: maci, macontia, *xelhuazquiza*.. the young turkey cocks, the young turkey hens mature, form air-sacs, develop wattles. (b.11 f.6 p.54). xelhuaztli** 93. yehuatl in motocayotia, *xelhuaztli*.. this one is called [the cloven one.] (b.11 f.2 p.10). 94. xexeltic, mimiltic, tzitziquiltic, iuhquin *xelhuaztli* ic ca.. it is divided, cylindrical, scarified, like something split. (b.11 f.13 p.131). yacatexotli** 95. ihuan *yacatexotli*,. also [it is called] yacatexotli. (b.11 f.4 p.36). 96. auh inic motocayotia *yacatexotli*: in iten texotic, patlactontli:. it is named yacatexotli because its bill is light blue, small, wide. (b.11 f.4 p.36). From leonelhermida at netc.pt Fri Nov 26 15:22:16 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 08:22:16 -0700 Subject: 'double' entries Message-ID: Many thanks to Joe for his marvellous help on the animal names. As I have been collecting Nahuatl animal names during the last 2 months (312 entries up to now - no borrowings from Spanish ), I found some 'double' entries I report here. If someone knows better about any of those, please consider to share that information with me. Thank you. Best wishes, Leonel Here are the 'double' entries as of now (1999.11.26): atapalcatl = atoncuepotli (1) = ruddy duck ateponaztli = atoncuepotli (2) = American bittern atotolin (1) = American bittern atotolin (2) = American white pelican txanatl (1) = thrush txanatl (2) = grackle, slender-billed grackle tlalcoyotl (1) = jackal which hides underground and digs tlalcoyotl (2) = badger pezohtli (1) = badger pezotli (no -h-)(2) = coati aztatl (1) = stork aztatl (2) = heron metzcanauhtli(1) = '(crescent) moon-duck' (maybe the same as following?) metzcanauhtli (2) = blue-winged teal axoquen (1) = a white bird axoquen (2) = little blue heron tapayaxin(1) = a lizard (perhaps said loosely of a salamander?) tapayaxin(2) = salamander L. From Richard.Haly at colorado.edu Fri Nov 26 21:23:02 1999 From: Richard.Haly at colorado.edu (Richard Haly) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:23:02 -0700 Subject: 'double' entries Message-ID: Greetings: The "crescent moon duck" is probably a Golden Eye (or a Pintail) as it has a crescent just in front of the eye. Pezotli is probably not coati since coati is coati. Tzanatl is grackle. Perhaps some of the ambiguity can be cleared up by noting the sources for these, i.e. I'd trust the Florentine Codex more than something written to teach vocabulary in the 1930s. Also, one must question things like "jackal" (a European "understanding" of what a coyote is) since Mexico ain't Egypt and also distinctions between Stork and Heron which Nahuas may have not made. Same for "lizard" vs. "salamander." At issue is categorization: Western vs. Nahua. As westerners had different uses for animals (they weren't tonalli and ancestors) the division into what is what is correspondingly different. Moreover, there is also the issue of place, as different places will have different names for fauna. Sierra Norte de Puebla bird names do not - in the main - fit those of the Valley of Mexico. Same goes for flora. Having been taught a bit of indigenous uses of plants in Mexico, I was amused to find that the same plants in Ecuador had completely different uses. My earlier comments per names of planets are germane here for plants. Things are local in the world and they are also local in sources. Hope this helps, Richard > atapalcatl = atoncuepotli (1) = ruddy duck > ateponaztli = atoncuepotli (2) = American bittern > > atotolin (1) = American bittern > atotolin (2) = American white pelican > > txanatl (1) = thrush > txanatl (2) = grackle, slender-billed grackle > > tlalcoyotl (1) = jackal which hides underground and digs > tlalcoyotl (2) = badger > > pezohtli (1) = badger > pezotli (no -h-)(2) = coati > > aztatl (1) = stork > aztatl (2) = heron > > metzcanauhtli(1) = '(crescent) moon-duck' (maybe the same as following?) > metzcanauhtli (2) = blue-winged teal > > axoquen (1) = a white bird > axoquen (2) = little blue heron > > tapayaxin(1) = a lizard (perhaps said loosely of a salamander?) > tapayaxin(2) = salamander > > L. > > > > > From xnoguez at cmq.colmex.mx Fri Nov 26 22:28:42 1999 From: xnoguez at cmq.colmex.mx (Xavier Noguez) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 15:28:42 -0700 Subject: Aztec pregnancy Message-ID: Estimado se�or Poole: Interesante volver con el tema de la imagen guadalupana. Lamentablemente tengo la impresi�n que la pintura ha sufrido, a trav�s del tiempo, varias modificaciones. S�lo tenemos dos fuentes confiables: la descripci�n en n�huatl en el Nican Mopohua y la pintura de Baltasar de Echave Orio de 1606. En ella se ven los mismos elementos que contemplamos ahora, con la excepci�n de la corona que "desapareci�" misteriosamente en 1895. Echave pint� las alas del �ngel de azul turquesa o verde, blanco y rojo, asunto en el que se pretendi� ver los colores de la bandera adoptada por la nueva naci�n en el siglo XIX...Varios autores, no muy serios, han se�alado el embarazo de la Virgen, pero con muy pocas pruebas. Sin embargo es una idea interesante, puesto que, a diferencia de otras Inmaculadas con el Ni�o Jes�s, la del Tepeyac no lo carga...Recordemos que existe una no muy remota posibilidad que el autor original de la extraordinaria pintura haya sido un indio: Marcos Cipac de Aquino, de San Jos� de los Naturales. Podr�amos saber m�s del origen e iconograf�a de la Guadalupana si se tuviera acceso al original de manera libre...pero esto es aboslutamente imposible. Le saluda Atentamente Xavier Noguez ---Mensaje original----- De: SPoole8257 at aol.com Para: Multiple recipients of list Fecha: Lunes 22 de Noviembre de 1999 4:45 PM Asunto: Aztec pregnancy >Dear Neteros: > >There is an assertion that is rather often made about the image of Our Lady >of Guadalupe of Mexico, that is, that the black belt around the Virgin's >waist was a Nahua symbol of pregnancy. I have searched various sources from >Sahagun to Soustelle to more recent ones and have not found mention of such a >custom. Has anyone ever encountered this? > >It has also been said that this custom was the source of the Spanish word >"encinta," meaning pregnant, despite the fact that it is derived from Latin >and has cognates in both French and Italian. > >Incidentally, the belt was originally purple and has turned black with time. > >Stafford Poole >SPoole8257 at aol.com From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Nov 27 00:15:06 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:15:06 -0700 Subject: 'double' entries Message-ID: > txanatl (1) = thrush > txanatl (2) = grackle, slender-billed grackle > This is tzanatl, not txanatl. The teotzanatl is the boat-tailed or great-tailed grackle, which anybody who has lived in Texas knows well as the bird with a voice like a rusty gate hinge. From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Nov 27 00:18:10 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:18:10 -0700 Subject: 'double' entries Message-ID: > pezohtli (1) = badger > pezotli (no -h-)(2) = coati The fact that the absolutive suffix has the form -tli makes clear that there is a stem-final saltillo whether or not it is written in as "h." From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Sat Nov 27 01:29:29 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 18:29:29 -0700 Subject: Varmints (Re: Does anyone know these?...) Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, R. Joe Campbell wrote: | tepanchichi | mouse | | tepanmamal | mouse | | calxoch | mouse What are the differences between these animals? Does any one of them come close to the memaloose found in the Mt. Hood National Forest in Oregon? Memalooses are bigger than rats, about a foot to a yard in height, sit back on their haunches, and have opposable thumbs just like monkeys or possums do. They like to cry out 'mee!' and this might be why they are called me[e]malooses. They are capable of getting into your backpacks and would just as soon steal cookies and fruit juice from you if you don't keep them at bay by throwing rocks at them. I think they are either omnivorous or vegetarian, and tend to live in troops of about a dozen or more at once, mostly making their homes in rockpiles in the high cascades. They are probably related to the white prairie dog of southeastern Oregon, but instead of living in the plains like to live in higher elevations. From Huaxyacac at aol.com Sat Nov 27 02:29:51 1999 From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:29:51 -0700 Subject: tzanatl Message-ID: Just a note on Fran's point about tzanatl: when Anderson and Dibble translated Sahagun's Book 11, the large grackles found in Mexico were considered to belong to the species Quiscalus (or Cassidix) major, the Boat-tailed Grackle. Since then, the birds found from Texas through Peru have been placed in a separate species, the Great-tailed Grackle, Quiscalus mexicanus. Interestingly, Hernandez provides the name hueitzanatl for the same bird, Q. mexicanus. One of these days I'm going to do a point by point comparison of Sahagun and Hernandez's bird names-- there are a lot of similarities, but some interesting differences, too. Alec Christensen From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Nov 27 06:01:26 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 23:01:26 -0700 Subject: inin ihuan inon Message-ID: >>From a private discussion with Leonel: (I thought some of it might be of general interest and that someone might add some details.) <>One thing I would like to know: are all variants of a word (numerals can have <>sometimes as many as half a dozen) found elsewhere (so that one have to <>consider them 'true variants') or else are some of them 'FC-specific' and so <>'non-standard'? **** There is a considerable amount of spelling variation in any Nahuatl document before the 20th century. Molina is "fairly" regular, but the FC has a lot of variation: /n/ dropping, /w/ variation = 'u, o, v, hu, ho, hv', /ll/ = 'l, ll', /tz ch/ sometimes not spelled 'i.e., they are dropped) before 's z tz ch', either /i/ or /y/ can be spelled as 'i y j', etc. Even *this* amount of variation is less than most documents! They simply didn't practice "standardization" to the degree that people in 20th century do. So it's hard to talk about 'non-standard' in the 16th century except by hind-sight (maybe from the point of view of Carochi). Specifically, I'm not sure what variation in the numerals you have in mind. Could you give me a few examples? Generally, I don't know of any forms that are 'FC-specific'. <>Also, how has one to distinguish between say 'Lihuicamina' (which is an <>obvious transposition error for Ilhuicamina, so there is no need to point it <>out...) ****I just checked the entire FC and 'Lihuicamina' doesn't appear. Maybe the spelling error was introduced when it was handled at the web-site. <>and 'cohuatl' which is a true variant of 'coatl' I suppose? By the <>way, which one would you prefer? For me, of the 3 theoretical possibilities, <>namely 1.coatl, 2.cohuatl (= cowatl) and 3.cohatl I can hardly (if at all) <>distinguish in pronounciation 1 from 2 but I distinguish well between the first <>couple and 3, so I would call 2 a somewhat 'pedantic' form of 1 unless it <>came from *co-huatl in which case 2 should be preferred... What do you think? **** Having my own answer in my head (which is where I keep all my opinions -- even when I let them out), I turned to Mary (whose linguistic judgement I highly trust) and asked her your question about #1 and #2. With no hint from me, she gave me my own answer, which follows a general principle of Nahuatl phonology (and morphophonemics); Fran's answer independently matches ours: it is impossible to know. Why? Because Nahuatl has no pronunciation contrast between /owa/ and /oa/; some dialects (I would say *most*) have a pronunciation rule that deletes /w/ in /o_a/, but other dialects have one that inserts /w/ in /oa/, leaving *all* /owa/ and /oa/ sequences as either [oa] (in the first set of dialects) or [owa] (in the second set of dialects). A similar thing is true of /iya/ and /ia/ sequences. The way to distinguish the presence vs. absence of the /w/ in apparent /oa/ sequences is alternation in morphological shape. Example: 1 quicoa he buys it 2 oquicouh he bought it 3 quineloa he stirs it 4 oquineloh he stirred it In #2, the final /w/ (-uh) betrays its underlying presence in #1, where it is removed in pronunciation. /y/ becomes [x] in syllable-final position, but is deleted in the sequence /i_a/: 1' quipia he keeps it 2' oquipix he kept it 3' mihtotia he dances 4' omihtotih he danced So 'pia' *does have a /y/ (just as apparent 'coa' has a /w/), but 'ihtotia' does not (just as 'neloa' lacks a /w/). To sum up the argument, since 'coa-tl' has its possible '/w/-position' in a 'protected' place (i.e., the 'a' is never lost and thus never puts the 'o' in syllable-final position), we cannot see whether a syllable- final [w] ('-uh') shows up. Therefore, the spelling selected is not on linguistic grounds, but on social ones -- I'd go along with the more frequent 'coatl'. To go back to #3, you rejected it correctly. The 'h' represents a consonant (the glottal stop) -- putting it into the spelling would be like inserting *any* consonant which isn't part of the word. The problem for us is partly in that the glottal stop isn't a phoneme in Spanish, English, and I think, Portuguese, so we don't take it "seriously". <>Worse still are the frequent omissions of h (the glottal stop) and n: if one <>were to write true 'classical' Nahuatl should one maintain 'ozomahtli' or write <>as well 'ozomatli' as it fancies one (this time there is difference of <>pronounciation as well) and 'cocoah' instead of 'cocoa'? **** Yes. The lack of writing the glottal stop ('h') is one of the serious faults of 16th century orthography. The failure to mark vowel length is the other. Obviously, we can deal with a considerable amount of spelling variation without great problems; except for the deletion of 'n', most of the variation referred to above is readable. <>Now just a few nouns: I know the plurals 'cuanacame' and 'xoxotlame': do they <>have singulars? **** Yes. At least, cuanacatl exists (the semantics of it fits my 'cute' category). Best regards, Joe From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Nov 27 16:28:22 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 09:28:22 -0700 Subject: inin ihuan inon Message-ID: >>From the dialogue between Leonel and Joe: > if one were to > write true 'classical' Nahuatl should one maintain 'ozomahtli' > and 'cocoah' instead of 'cocoa'? > **** Yes. The lack of writing the glottal stop ('h') is one of the > serious faults of 16th century orthography. Yes, it's a good idea to write in the "h" in ozomahtli. But no, one should not write "cocoah" in all places. The singular present form is cocoa. The plural present is cocoah. Fran From leonelhermida at netc.pt Sat Nov 27 20:21:48 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:21:48 -0700 Subject: numeral variants Message-ID: This is just for illustrating what I meant by 'variants' in numerals. I don't include either 'counters' (oontetl) or honorifics (ometzin), though I include both stand-alone forms and prefix forms (oon-); (all the following appear in Joe's FC Word List). 1. ce. = one; a; an; single., ce-. cepa. = once, one time. cen-. centzontli. = four hundred; many. cem-. cempoalli. = twenty, cemilhuitl. = one whole day cep-. ceppa. = once; one time; first; first time. 2. omentin. = two; both. omenti. = two. omen. = two. ome. = two; both; couple. omextin. = two; both. omexti. = two, both. om-. omilhuitl. = two days, ompoalilhuitl. = forty days. on-. onxihuitl. = two years, ontzontli.= eight hundred oon-. oontetl. = two. o- opa. = twice, two times. op- oppa. = two times, twice. ooc- ooccan. = in two places. 3. ye- yeilhuitl. = three days. yex- yexcan. = three places. e- eilhuitl. = three days. epoalxihuitl. = sixty years. eintin. = three. ei. = three. eixtin. = three. eei. = three. eex-. eexcan. = in three places. ex-. expa. = three times; thrice. 4 nahui. = four. nahuin. = four. nahuinti. = four. nahuintin. = four. nahuixti. = four. nahuixtin. = four. nauh-. nauhtzontli. = sixteen hundred. nahuacalli. = four boats nah-. nahmapilli. = four fingers (e.g., of a drink). na-. napa. = four times. nap-. nappa. = four times, nappoalilhuitl. = eighty days Maybe a little confusing for beginners, but a fascination just below the surface... Best regards, Leonel From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Nov 27 20:48:09 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:48:09 -0700 Subject: inin ihuan inon Message-ID: In my comments on spelling variation in the FC, in my hurry (I prefer to call it 'too tightly focused'), I forgot to mention a very important fact: I hardly ever use or refer to the original spelling form in the FC, since the variation in it is not relevant for what I am doing now -- in fact, using it would de-facilitate the work. So to avoid driving my wagon through the woods, two forms are maintained in the database: 1) original, 2) regularized. All operations are carried out on the regularized form. If the original form is needed, it is available. Here is a sample comparison from Book 11: This small sample from Book 11 of the FC gives some idea of the quality and quantity of orthographic variation found in the work. The first line of each entry is "regularized" and the second Nahuatl line is in the original orthography. (I have changed the c cedilla to 'c,' since my character doesn't travel very well. Further, the ^ represents a tilde over the preceding vowel.) It should be noted that regularized orthography still falls short of being adequate, since it usually omits the glottal stop and does not mark vowel length at all (but that's the way most of our texts are). 376. ozomatli: Oc,omatli: monkey 377. ihuan itoca cuauhchimal, yoan itoca quauhchimal, its name is also quauhchimal. 378. cuauhtla chane, anahuac, tonalixco: quauhtla chane, anaoac, tonalixco: it is a forest-dweller in anahuac, toward the east. 379. cuitlapicic, cuitlapicictic, cuitlaolol, cuitlaololtic: cuitlapilhuiac, cuitlapilcocoltic, cujtlapicic, cujtlapicictic, cujtlaolol, cujtlaololtic: cujtlapilhujac, cujtlapilcocoltic, it has a small back--minute; it is round-backed; it is of rounded back; it has a long, curled tail. 380. tlacamaye, tlacaicxe: izte, huel izte, iztihuihuiac. tlacamaie, tlacaicxe: izte, vel izte, iztiviviac. it has human hands, human feet, nails, real nails--long nails. 381. auh in itlatlachihual motenpapahuiani, mapipitzoani: tehuic momamamanani, Auh in jtlatlachioal motenpapavianj, mapipitzoanj: tevic momamamananj, and as to its actions: it is a shouter, a shrill whistler, making gestures toward one. 382. tetepachoa, tecuauhtlaxonecuilhuia. tetepachoa, tequauhtlaxonecujlhuja. it stones one, it hurls sticks at one. 383. achi tlacaxayaque: Achi tlacaxaiaque: it has a face which is a little human. 384. pazotic, popoltic, cuitlaololtic, cuitlaolol: pac,otic, popoltic, cujtlaololtic, cujtlaolol: it is shaggy..., round-backed, of rounded back. 385. texcalco in mopilhuatia za centetl in quichihua. texcalco in mopilhoatia c,a centetl in qujchioa. it bears its young in the crags; it produces only one. 386. auh in itlacual mochihua ixquich in tonacayotl, in xochicualli, in nacatl huellacatlacua, Auh in jtlaqual mochioa ixqujch in tonacaiutl, in xochiqualli, in nacatl vellacatlaqua, and all the maize, fruit, meat become its food; it eats like a human being. 387. no quicua in ococintli, no quicua in ahuacuauhtomatl, in ahuatomatl, no ihuan in cuauhcelotl. no qujqua in ococintli, no qujqua in aoaquauhtomatl, in aoatomatl, no yoan in quauhcelutl. also it eats pine nuts, acorns, and also tender shoots of trees. 388. auh inic maci: huei tletl motlalia, cintli moyahualochtia, anozo tlaolli: auh in tleco motoca, cenca huei in cacalotetl. Auh injc maci: vei tletl motlalia, cintli moiaoalochtia, anoc,o tlaolli: auh in tleco motoca, cenca vei in cacalotetl. and to capture them, a large fire is built; ears or kernels of maize are put around the edge, and in the blaze is buried a very large [stone called] cacalotetl. 389. auh in tlamani, in anque, motlaltoca: Auh in tlamanj, in anque, motlaltoca: and the trappers, the hunters, take cover. 390. auh in ye popoca, in manel canin cate, in yehuantin ozomati: quihualinecui in tletl, in poctli: auh in ie popoca, in manel canjn cate, in iehoa^tin oc,omati: qujoalinecuj in tletl, in poctli: and when [the fire] smokes, these monkeys, wherever they are, smell the fire, the smoke. 391. niman hualhui quinmamama in inpilhuan, cololhuitimoteca in tletl. njman oalhuj qujnmamama in inpilhoan, cololhujtimoteca in tletl. then they come; they carry their young on their backs; they seat themselves about the fire. 392. pehua in mozcohua: pehua in mocinixquia in mocalhuia, Peoa in mozcooa: peoa in mocinixquja in mocalhuja, they begin to warm themselves; the ears of maize begin to roast [and] they eat toasted maize. Best regards, Joe From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Nov 27 20:51:12 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:51:12 -0700 Subject: o Message-ID: Galen, This is just a quickie (atrasado because I was out of town, although I took a modemless keyboard with me). Comments later. Best regards, Joe 1. *aoteixco*. cuix aoteixco, teicpac tlachix?. was he perhaps disdainful?. (b.6 f.9 c.20 p.108) f.7 c.30 p.117) 311. *oce*. quilmach intla oce oelaquiloc: oc no iuhqui impan mochihuaz, in oc cequintin in ihuayolque: it was said that if one had been drowned, the same would yet also befall still others of his kinfolk. (b.11 f.7 c.4 p.69) 312. *ocen*. auh ca ocenmayan catca, ca ocenmayan onquiz, ca ocen onquiz in tlalticpac: "and it hath been forever; he hath gone forever; he hath left the earth completely.". (b.6 f.2 c.5 p.22) 313. *ocen*. a ca ocen oncatca, it has been complete. (b.6 f.2 c.5 p.22) 314. *ocen*. ca ocen onquiz, he hath left completely. (b.6 f.2 c.5 p.22) 315. *ocen*. ca ocen onquiz, he hath left forever. (b.6 f.4 c.10 p.48) 316. *ocen*. ca ocen motopten mopetlacalten, forever he hath gone to his retreat. (b.6 f.4 c.10 p.48) 317. *ocen*. cuix ocen hualla, hath he perhaps come forever?. (b.6 f.6 c.14 p.75) 452. *oi-noma*. ahzo oquicac, ahzo omononotz: ahzo oinoma iyomotlan inacaztech man: perhaps it hath heard, perhaps it hath exhorted itself, perhaps of its own accord it hath tugged at its flank, at its ear. (b.6 f.1 c.1 p.4) 453. *oi-noma*. aco oinoma cuahuitl, tetl quimomacac quimotocti: ahzo omahuac omononotz: inic momactzinco mociauhpouhtoc, in mociauhquetztoc, in tlatetohtoc: perhaps of its own accord it hath punished itself, castigated itself, perhaps it hath chidden itself, exhorted itself, so that in thy hands they animate one another, they encourage one another, they chatter. (b.6 f.1 c.1 p.4) 454. *oicamac*. ca oimac tihuetz, ca oicamac ticalac in tecuani, ca oticolini in izti, in itlan: for thou hast fallen into the claws, thou hast entered the mouth of a wild beast; thou hast stirred up justice. (b.6 f.6 c.14 p.72) 455. *oicpalpan*. auh ayac ilihuiztlacatl, ayac iciuhcatlacatl, ayac ihcicani, ayac yollocamachal, ayac tlaxcoloani oteuctlatocat, opetlapan huicpalpan catca. and no inconsiderate one, no impetuous one, no hasty one, no one untrustworthy with secrets, no rash one hath become ruler, hath been in the rulership. (b.6 f.9 c.20 p.110) 456. *oihcuac*. auh ma ic hualchocaz, ma ic hualmellacuahuaz in oihcuac itla ipan choloto, in no malauh, in no motecuini. and may there thus be weeping, may there thus be encouragement when, having gone treading upon something, they have also slipped, they have also faltered. (b.6 f.7 c.16 p.85) 457. *oihiyotl*. nopiltze oihiyotl ticmomachiti, oticmociahuilti, omitzmocnelili in toteucyo, "o my son, thou hast found thy breath; thou hast suffered; our lord hath been merciful to thee. (b.3 f.3 c.ap1 p.41) 458. *oihuic*. a ca oihuic anmoquixtique in atl, in tepetl: ye have done your duty to the city. (b.6 f.7 c.16 p.85) 459. *oihuic*. cuix oihuic tonmazouh. perhaps thou hast reached out thy arms unto him?. (b.6 f.12 c.25 p.141) 460. *oihuic*. quitoa. inin tlapalpol: cemanahuac in otlamamauhtiaya, cemanahuac in ohualimacaxoya, cemanahuac in oihuic hualnemamauhtiloya, hualneizahuiloya: they said: "this blockhead! he terrorized the world; there was dread in the world, there was terror before him in the world, there was astonishment. (b.12 f.4 c.23 p.66) 472. *oimac*. ca oimac tihuetz, ca oicamac ticalac in tecuani, ca oticolini in izti, in itlan: for thou hast fallen into the claws, thou hast entered the mouth of a wild beast; thou hast stirred up justice. (b.6 f.6 c.14 p.72) 473. *oimac*. in oimac onacic in miquiz: niman ye ic ipan conteca in techcatl, quinauhcahuia in quitilinia: when one who was to die came to their hands, thereupon they stretched him out on the sacrificial stone; four took him by the arms and legs to draw him taut. (b.9 f.5 c.14 p.66) 474. *oimacehual*. mitoaya ca oimacehual mochiuh, in aquin iuhqui, in. of one such as this it is said that he has achieved his merit. (b.6 f.19 c.41 p.235) 475. *oimixco*. ca oimixco, omicpac tontlachix, otiquimonixima: for thou hast recognized [and] acknowledged them in thy presence. (b.9 f.4 c.9 p.42) 476. *oimmac*. in cuappetlapan, in ocelopetlapan oyeco, in oimmac manca in cuappiaztli, in cuauhxicalli, in ocuauhyacanque, in ocatlitique in tonatiuh in tlalteuctli: they came exercising military command; in their hands rested the eagle tube, the eagle vessel; they led the eagle warriors; they provided drink for the sun, for tlaltecutli. (b.6 f.9 c.20 p.106) 477. *oimpan*. auh intla cana oimpan yoac, cana cuahuitl itzintlan, anozo atlauhcamac, ommololoa, onmocemololoa, ommotepeuhtitlalia, monechicoa, quicuitlalpia, quicencuitlalpia, quicemilpia, quicemmana in intopil, in ipan quixehuaya in inteouh: iyacateuctli. and if somewhere night fell, they gathered, joined, crowded, and assembled themselves somewhere at the foot of a tree or the opening of a gorge, and bound and tied, fastened together, and placed on the ground, all their staves, which represented their god yiacatecutli. (b.5 f.1 c.2 p.155) 478. *oimpan*. ca nel oimpan ya, oquimonamictique, in ahuel tecauh, in ahuel polihui: for in truth [slavery] had come upon them; they had come against that which they could not leave--of which they could not be rid. (b.7 f.2 c.8 p.24) 479. *oimpan*. ye ipan in calacque pochteca, ayotlan, in anahuac, ompa oinpan hualmotzauc: now in his time the merchants had entered [the provinces of] ayotlan [and] anauac, [and] there they had been besieged. (b.9 f.1 c.2 p.3) 480. *oinacaztech*. auh in matzin, in motepetzin: a ca oinacaztech ticmanili, ca oiyomotlan timopilotzino: ca oitech pachiuh, in atl cecec, in tzitzicaztli: and thy city thou hast taken by the ear, thou hast tugged at the flank; it hath been punished with icy water, with nettles;. (b.6 f.1 c.1 p.3) 481. *oinmac*. auh in icuac ye yauh toci, mochi tlacatl conchicha: in aca ixochiuh oinmac onoca, conchichicha ic conmotla. and when toci['s impersonator] went, everyone spat at her; anyone whose flowers lay in his hands spat at her; he cast [the flowers] at her. (b.2 f.7 c.30 p.125) 482. *oinmac*. auh in oinmac concauhque cihua, in micteca, in yehuatl tonatiuh: niman no cecemmani, hualhui, and there women who delivered this sun into the hands of the micteca then also dispersed. (b.6 f.14 c.29 p.163) 483. *oinpal*. ca oinpal antlacatque in toteucyohuan, in ye nachca onmantihui in teteucti, tlatoque, ca amo quiltitlan, ca amo cuauhtitlan in huayolque, in oantlacatque, for ye were born by the grace of our lords, the lords, the rulers who have already gone beyond to reside; for ye came to life, ye were born not among the herbs, in the woods. (b.6 f.7 c.17 p.90) 484. *ointech*. a ca oquimomma, ca oquimontocac: auh ca ointech onacic in iachcocolhuan, in itechiuhcahuan: a ca ocontocac, ca oitech onacic in tonan, in tota in mictlan teuctli: for he hath come to know, hath followed, hath arrived with his great-grandfathers, his progenitors; for he hath followed, he hath arrived by our mother, our father, mictlan tecutli. (b.6 f.4 c.10 p.48) 485. *ointech*. ca oconcuaco, ca oconico ca huintech onmonec, in cetzin in ometzin in monahuan in motahuan: one [or] two of thy mothers, of thy fathers, came to eat [and] drink as they required. (b.9 f.4 c.9 p.42) 486. *ointech*. auh in ointech ompachihuito espa=A4oles: niman imixpan ontlalcuaque acalyacac, in momatque, ca yehuatl in quetzalcoatl topiltzin, in oacico, and when they had drawn near to the spaniards, then before them they performed the earth-eating ceremony at the prows of the boats: they thought it was quetzalcoatl topiltzin who had come to arrive. (b.12 f.1 c.2 p.5) 487. *ointlan*. auh in amo ointlan cahaquico in imma, in imicxi: in oquizozoaco in imahaz, in incuitlapiltzin: in oteca mochihuaco, in aotlaxiccahuaco: and they were the ones who went not hiding their hands, their feet; rather, those who went extending their wings, their tail feathers, those who went working in behalf of others, those who went not neglecting things. (b.6 f.11 c.24 p.137) 488. *oinyollo*. in oinyollo, ompachiuh niman ye ic quilhuia. telpochtle: ca otocontlachielique, in tloque nahuaque, when their doubts had been satisfied, they thereupon said to him: "o youth, thou hast made preparations for the protector of all.". (b.9 f.5 c.12 p.56) 489. *oinyollo*. auh in oinyollo ompachiuh, in espa=A4oles: niman ic hualolinque ommotlalico in itztapalapan: and when the spaniards had been satisfied, then they moved on; they came to settle themselves at itztapalapan. (b.12 f.3 c.14 p.35) 490. *oipan*. quilmach in aquin itech motlalia, inin cocoliztli, in motocayotia omixochitl: ic pehua, in ahzo ipan omaxix, anozo oipan moquetz: in anozo miyecpa oquineuc, it was said of him upon whom this sickness, which they called omixochitl, settled, that it began thus: perhaps one had urinated or stepped upon it; or one had smelled it many times. (b.5 f.2 c.1a p.180) 491. *oipan*. auh inin cocoliztli: quilmach ic pehua, in iuh moztlacahuia huehuetque: in ahzo oquicuencolhui, in anozo oquineuc, in anoce oipan motlali: and of this ill it was said that thus did it begin--so were the ancients deceived: they had perchance stepped over it, or smelled it, or else sat upon it. (b.5 f.2 c.2a p.180) 492. *oipan*. aitzcuintli: oipan mito in chichi. the otter has been mentioned among the dogs. (b.11 f.7 c.4 p.67) 493. *oiquechtlan*. niman ihuicpa ya in nenequi. auh quittac oiquechtlan motecuix in cincohuatl, ihuan imapan. oiciacacpa quiquiz, then the traveler went toward it and saw that cincoatl was coiled about its neck and its legs; it protruded from its flank. (b.11 f.9 c.5 p.84) 494. *oitech*. auh in matzin, in motepetzin: a ca oinacaztech ticmanili, ca oiyomotlan timopilotzino: ca oitech pachiuh, in atl cecec, in tzitzicaztli: and thy city thou hast taken by the ear, thou hast tugged at the flank; it hath been punished with icy water, with nettles;. (b.6 f.1 c.1 p.3) 495. *oitech*. a ca oquimomma, ca oquimontocac: auh ca ointech onacic in iachcocolhuan, in itechiuhcahuan: a ca ocontocac, ca oitech onacic in tonan, in tota in mictlan teuctli: for he hath come to know, hath followed, hath arrived with his great-grandfathers, his progenitors; for he hath followed, he hath arrived by our mother, our father, mictlan tecutli. (b.6 f.4 c.10 p.48) 496. *oitech*. auh in ye iuhqui in oitech conpachoque: in oconquixti in cuauhyo in teyo, in teahualiztlatolli: zatepan quitlatlauhtia quichoquiztlapaloa, quicahualtia inic amo atlamatiz, inic amo mopoaz inic amo quimotlatquitocaz, in ahzo itla oquitlaocoli in toteucyo, in quexquich itlatqui ohualietia: in quetzalli, in tzinitzcan, in teoquechol, in zacuan, i xiuhtototl, in xomoihhuitl: anozo chalchihuitl ahzo apozonalli, ahzo atzaccayotl, ahzo acuahuitl, anozo tecuanehuatl: ahzo cacahuatl, ahzo teonacaztli in oquicuito, inic onahualoztomecatito. and when this was done, when they had reprehended, castigated, admonished him, then they besought him; they greeted him, weeping; they charged him not to be presumptuous nor proud, not to attribute his gains falsely to himself when perchance our lord had shown him some little mercy with as many of his goods as he had brought with him: the quetzal feathers, the trogonorus, red spoonbill, troupial, blue cotinga; the duck feathers; or the green stone, or the amber, or the stoppers for gourds, or stirring sticks; or the skins of wild animals; perhaps the cacao beans or the "divine ear" spice which he had goen to secure when he had gone practising trade as a disguised merchant. (b.9 f.3 c.6 p.30) 497. *oitech*. ca ihuic yatia. auh in oitech acito: quittac cohuatl, in itech omotetecuix: he went toward it, and when he came to reach it, he saw a serpent which was coiled around [the coyote]. (b.11 f.1 c.1 p.7) 498. *oitech*. auh intla oitech acico zan ic quimachititiquiza, .=20 and if [the victim] comes to it, it quickly attacks. (b.11 f.1 c.1 p.9) 499. *oitech*. oitech tommopachihuiltico in matzin, in motepetzin mexico, oipan tommohuetzitico in mopetlatzin, in mocpaltzin, in huachitzinca nimitzonnopielili, in onimitzonnotlapielili, thou hast come to govern thy city of mexico; thou hast come to descend upon thy mat, upon thy seat, which for a moment i have watched for thee, which i have guarded for thee. (b.12 f.3 c.16 p.44) 506. *oitlan*. amo ima amo iicxi oitlan cahaquico. he did not come inserting his hands, his feet under [his cape]. (b.6 f.4 c.10 p.48) 558. *oixpan*. ca iuh quitoaya, in aquin quicnelia, in oconmahuizolti, in oixpan conquixti, in itzopelica, in iahuiyaca, in itetlaocoliliz: for thus did they say: "he whom he had favored and honored, and to whom he had revealed his sweetness, fragrance, and mercy, from this same one he might withdraw and remove it.". (b.4 f.4 c.9 p.33) 559. *oixpan*. auh in oixpan conquetzato, niman ye ic quitta, quimoottitia, quipepepetla in cuauhtemoctzin: and when they had gone to stand him before [cortes], thereupon he looked at, he presented himself to, he continually stroked quauhtemoc. (b.12 f.8 c.40 p.120) 934. *omo-tech*. ic ilhuiloya in aquin quichihuaya tlatlacolli, atetlanemiliztli, in iztlacatiliztli. ca omotech mochiuh, in acualli, in ayectli: in iuhqui zacacualli, in iuhqui pollocotli, iztlacatiliztli. thus it was said of him who committed a fault, an ill-advised act, [who told] a lie: "on thee hath come evil, unrighteousness; like straw, like chaff, it is a lie.". (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.257) 1064. *omoch*. ca omoch mito in tlein oncan mochichihuaya, all that then happened hath been told. (b.4 f.12 c.39 p.129) 1065. *omoch*. in ma iuh tlacualli momati tlatolli, ca omoch mito in yamanqui, in totonqui, in huelic, in ahuiyac, as food is considered a discourse, which, [if] all is repeated, [is like food which is] soft, warm, savory, pleasing to smell;. (b.4 f.12 c.39 p.129) 1066. *omoch*. in ahnoce, za tamalzolli, tamalcecec, in opoxcauh in oalahuac, oalactix, in ozazalix, in huiyax, ca omoch mito. or like stale tamales, cold, soggy, slimy and slippery, sticky, and stinking, [so] is all that hath been said. (b.4 f.12 c.39 p.132) 1067. *omochi*. auh in otlamito in itlatol, in omochi quito itlachihual: quinanquilia, in tlapouhqui, in ixtli, in nacaztli mochihua, in tehuihuiti, in tepatilloti: and when he ended his words, when he had told all his deeds, the soothsayer, the one who became the mediator, the lieutenant, the deputy, answered him. (b.1 f.1 c.12 p.26) 1068. *omochi*. auh in omochi yecauh, mec quitquitze in inchan tepiquini, . and when all [the adornment] had been finished, then they quickly took them to the homes of those who had undertaken to provide the figures. (b.2 f.9 c.35 p.152) 1069. *omochi*. auh in ye iuhqui, in omochi centecpanque in innextlahual ithualnepantla; niman ye ic calaqui in inchan, ixpan moquetza in tletl: and when this was done, when all their offerings were arranged together in the middle of the courtyard, thereupon they entered their home [and] stood before the fire. (b.9 f.1 c.3 p.10) 1070. *omochi*. auh in ye ixquich in omochi nez: in ixquich monequiz, in aoc tle quitequipachoa. niman ye ic temolcahualtia: quinmachitia, in huehuetque, in ilamatque: ihuan in ixquichtin quipalehuizque in ihuanyolque: ihuan in cuicanime, chicometica in quitecaquitia. and when indeed all [and] everything was at hand which would be needed, when he was dissatisfied with nothing more, thereupon he had the people forget [their preoccupations]; he notified the old men, the old women, and all who were to assist him, the kinsmen and the singers; seven at a time he informed them. (b.9 f.3 c.7 p.33) 1071. *omochi*. auh in ihcuac in cenca ye miec in itlatqui: in ohuel quicnopilhui in tlalticpacayotl: in zan niman aoc tle quimamimictia, in ye mochi onca in ixquich popolihuiz: in aoc tle quitequipachoa, in omochi nez in huic tlatecac, in quitetlauhtiz in tilmatli: and when his possessions were very many, when he had been able to attain the things of the world, when in no wise did anything impede him, when indeed there was everything which was to be consumed, when nothing displeased him, when all was at hand, when everything appeared for others to eat, then he would present capes as gifts: (b.9 f.4 c.10 p.47) 1072. *omochi*. auh in ye iuhqui, in otlacencauh, in omochi nez, in ixquich omoteneuh in omito: niman ye ompehua in tochtepec in ompa cemonoque in pochteca in oztomeca in ye nohuian altepetl ipan, in ye nohuian altepetl ipan tlaca: and when this was done, when the things were prepared, when all was at hand that was mentioned and told of, then he set out for tochtepec, where resided together the merchants, the vanguard merchants, of every city: inhabitants of every city. (b.9 f.4 c.10 p.48) 1073. *omochi*. in ihcuac ye iuhqui in omochi mocencauh: niman ic tleco motlalia mocentotonia: when they are this far, when all is prepared, then [the mold] is placed on the fire; it is thoroughly heated. (b.9 f.6 c.16 p.77) 1074. *omochi*. in tlathuic: omochi motepehuaco in icuitlaxcol za quihuilantinemi. at dawn, it had scattered out its intestines; it went about dragging them behind it. (b.11 f.2 c.1 p.12) 1075. *omochi*. auh in ye iuhqui in omochi monechico in teocuitlatl. niman ye ic quinhualnotza, quinhualnenotzallani in ixquichtin in pipiltin in malintzin: . and when it had come to pass that all the gold was gathered together, thereupon marina summoned hither, ordered summoned hither, all the noblemen. (b.12 f.3 c.18 p.48) 1147. *onohuian*. auh anoce oommocnelico, ahzo oommototomaco, oommopehpetlahuaco, ahzo onohuian mitzonmohottititzinoco: and perhaps he hath come to do himself good: perhaps he hath come to unclothe, come to strip himself [of his faults]; perhaps he hath come to show himself to thee in all parts. (b.6 f.3 c.7 p.29) 1148. *onohuian*. ca oontlatlatlan in itlatoltzin, ca onohuian mitzonmonemitili, ca onohuian mitzonmahaxitili, for his words are ended; for he hath everywhere caused thee to live well, for he hath everywhere brought things to thee. (b.6 f.8 c.19 p.99) 1149. *onohuian*. ca oontlatlatlan in itlatoltzin, ca onohuian mitzonmonemitili, ca onohuian mitzonmahaxitili, for his words are ended; for he hath everywhere caused thee to live well, for he hath everywhere brought things to thee. (b.6 f.8 c.19 p.99) 1150. *onohuian*. ca oontlatlatlan in amihiyotzin, ca onohuian anquimonmahaxitilique, onohuian anquimonmonemitilique: aoc tle oanconmocahuitzinoque. ye have finished your words; everywhere ye have made them know to them; everywhere ye have caused them to reflect; nothing more have ye left out. (b.6 f.12 c.25 p.145) 1151. *onohuian*. ca oontlatlatlan in amihiyotzin, ca onohuian anquimonmahaxitilique, onohuian anquimonmonemitilique: aoc tle oanconmocahuitzinoque. ye have finished your words; everywhere ye have made them know to them; everywhere ye have caused them to reflect; nothing more have ye left out. (b.6 f.12 c.25 p.145) 1187. *opetlapan*. auh ayac ilihuiztlacatl, ayac iciuhcatlacatl, ayac ihcicani, ayac yollocamachal, ayac tlaxcoloani oteuctlatocat, opetlapan huicpalpan catca. and no inconsiderate one, no impetuous one, no hasty one, no one untrustworthy with secrets, no rash one hath become ruler, hath been in the rulership. (b.6 f.9 c.20 p.110) 1452. *ote-tloc*. inic omonemitico tlalticpac, inic otetloc, tenahuac monemitico: for they came to live on earth; for they came to live with others. (b.6 f.9 c.20 p.106) 1457. *otehuan*. auh in tlamacazqui: ca nel nozo, amo otehuan atatacac: quil oncan conmocahuili, inic amo tehuan atliz: but the priest [tlamacazqui], because it really did not dig for water with the others, it is said, they abandoned there, so that it did not drink with the others. (b.11 f.6 c.2 p.51) 1471. *otetech*. no ihuan ihcuac huel miz: in ihcuac otetech monec achtopa in tlacpac omito patli in itechpa necaxaniliztli. and also it can then be drunk when required by one as the first remedy mentioned above, referring to a relapse. (b.11 f.17 c.7 p.177) 1472. *otetlan*. auh otetlan moetztieco in petlacuac, in icpalcuac.=20 and they came to occupy position and authority among the people. (b.6 f.9 c.20 p.106) 1657. *oto-pan*. otopan tlatoloc. it hath been told above us. (b.6 f.3 c.8 p.37) 1658. *oto-pan*. quenmach nenti teotl cualo, tlatlatzini otopan quihualmonequilti: how will it be if the master, our lord, hath willed that upon us there be an eclipse, that there be thunder, that he hath only come to deprive us?. (b.6 f.15 c.34 p.186) 1667. *otopan*. mitoaya. otopan mochiuh, anozo otopan onquiz: in iuhqui teoatl, tlachinolli: quitoznequi: cocoliztli, anozo huel yehuatl in yaoyotl. it was said: "it is as if there came upon us, or there passed over us, the sea, the conflagration" -- that is, pestilence or this same war.". (b.6 f.19 c.43 p.244) 1668. *otopan*. mitoaya. otopan mochiuh, anozo otopan onquiz: in iuhqui teoatl, tlachinolli: quitoznequi: cocoliztli, anozo huel yehuatl in yaoyotl. it was said: "it is as if there came upon us, or there passed over us, the sea, the conflagration" -- that is, pestilence or this same war.". (b.6 f.19 c.43 p.244) 1669. *otopan*. ihcuac mitoa. otopan quimochihuili in toteucyo, in atl itztic, in atl cecec: then it is said: "our lord hath brought cold water, icy water, upon us. (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.254) 1670. *otopanomochiuh*. o ca iuhqui otopanomochiuh, in tlalticpac, ca zan achintoca tlalticpac otonnenque, zan iciuhca ontzonquiz, in tonemiliz, in ipampa in totlatlacol, oontlan, ompoliuh in tonemiliz. thus it befell us on earth, for we were living but a moment on earth, we swiftly brought our lives to a close because of our sins; our lives ended, perished. (b.1 f.4 c.Ap p.66) 1671. *otopanomochiuh*. o ca iuhqui otopanomochiuh, in tlalticpac, ca zan achintoca tlalticpac otonnenque, zan iciuhca ontzonquiz, in tonemiliz, in ipampa in totlatlacol, oontlan, ompoliuh in tonemiliz. thus it befell us on earth, for we were living but a moment on earth, we swiftly brought our lives to a close because of our sins; our lives ended, perished. (b.1 f.4 c.Ap p.66) From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Nov 27 22:36:58 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:36:58 -0700 Subject: Snakes and monkey Message-ID: I think I have confused Leonel's question with part of Joe's answer. When L. asked about cocoa, I assumed that he was talking about the transitive/reflexive verb 'to hurt someone, to be hurting or sick.' THAT has a saltillo only in the plural. (To say nothing of an obligatory object prefix.) But since the other part of his question was about ozomahtli 'monkey,' probably what L. was asking about was cocoa, the plural of the word for 'snake.' Yes, being plural, that always has a final saltillo ("h"). It also has a long vowel in the initial, reduplicated syllable: co:co:ah, The singular is co:a:tl 'snake.' Or, as Joe, Mary and I all agree, it could be co:hua:tl. There's no way of telling for sure whether there is a /w/ between the two internal vowels. Returning to verb morphology, using it reflexively, the verb cocoa: works in the following way: ninococoa 'I am sick, hurting' timococoa 'you-sg are sick, hurting' mococoa 'he/she/it is sick, hurting' titicocoah 'we are sick, hurting' ammococoah 'y'all are sick, hurting' mococoah 'they are sick, hurting' There is an intransitive verb cocoya that means about the same thing: nicocoya 'I am sick' etc. ticocoyah 'we are sick' etc. The preterite form of this, as Joe points out, has an "x" where an underlying /y/ ends up in word-final position: o:nicocox 'I was sick' But this is a weird construction, because it implies an instance of sickness. More likely would be the imperfect: nicocoyaya 'I was being sick' Sorry for the confusion. I hope I have put it right. Joe may want to add his thoughts about the relation of cocoya to cocoa:. Isn't Nahuatl a marvelous language? Fran From leonelhermida at netc.pt Sun Nov 28 09:31:55 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 02:31:55 -0700 Subject: Snakes and monkey Message-ID: Hi, Please allow me to agree here 100% with Fran that "Nahuatl is a marvelous language" and to point out it is refreshing and stimulating to the mind to find out how those people clothe the ordinary human thoughts and feelings in a completely new garb, light-years away from everything found in Europe (both ancient and modern). Thank you for your always welcome, clear and informative notes. Best wishes always, Leonel -----Original Message----- From: Frances Karttunen To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 10:44 PM Subject: Snakes and monkey > >I think I have confused Leonel's question with part of Joe's answer. > >When L. asked about cocoa, I assumed that he was talking about the >transitive/reflexive verb 'to hurt someone, to be hurting or sick.' THAT >has a saltillo only in the plural. (To say nothing of an obligatory object >prefix.) > >But since the other part of his question was about ozomahtli 'monkey,' >probably what L. was asking about was cocoa, the plural of the word for >'snake.' Yes, being plural, that always has a final saltillo ("h"). It >also has a long vowel in the initial, reduplicated syllable: co:co:ah, > >The singular is co:a:tl 'snake.' Or, as Joe, Mary and I all agree, it could >be co:hua:tl. There's no way of telling for sure whether there is a /w/ >between the two internal vowels. > > >Returning to verb morphology, using it reflexively, the verb cocoa: works in >the following way: > >ninococoa 'I am sick, hurting' >timococoa 'you-sg are sick, hurting' >mococoa 'he/she/it is sick, hurting' > >titicocoah 'we are sick, hurting' >ammococoah 'y'all are sick, hurting' >mococoah 'they are sick, hurting' > >There is an intransitive verb cocoya that means about the same thing: > >nicocoya 'I am sick' >etc. > >ticocoyah 'we are sick' >etc. > >The preterite form of this, as Joe points out, has an "x" where an >underlying /y/ ends up in word-final position: > >o:nicocox 'I was sick' > >But this is a weird construction, because it implies an instance of >sickness. More likely would be the imperfect: > >nicocoyaya 'I was being sick' > >Sorry for the confusion. I hope I have put it right. Joe may want to add >his thoughts about the relation of cocoya to cocoa:. > >Isn't Nahuatl a marvelous language? > >Fran From leonelhermida at netc.pt Sun Nov 28 12:36:36 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 05:36:36 -0700 Subject: Varmints (Re: Does anyone know these?...) Message-ID: Hi, With so vivid a description, I am almost disappointed to have never heard about memalooses before. As there is much 'vagueness' in the list below, it is perhaps not impossible this remarkable 'fellow' figures somewhere there under another designation: calxoch. mouse chachahuatl. dormouse cuauhquimichin. forest mouse. huezacotl. kangaroo rat. mo:tohtli. chipmunk (a ground-squirrel) motoyahuitl. brown chipmunk. tepanchichi. mouse tepanmamal. mouse tepapa. kind of mouse tetzopan. small field mouse tlalquimichin. field mouse. tlaltechalotl. ground squirrel. tozan (1). mole, rat (may be a specific animal, neither a mole nor a rat?) tozan (2). gopher (1 Amer. burrowing rodent. 2 N.Amer. ground-squirrel of genus Citellus) BTW I would also welcome the Nahuatl name for 'beaver'. And that's all for the moment (don't include either 'true squirrels' or 'rabbits'; nor 'quimichme'/'quiquimichtin') Regards, Leonel -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Montchalin To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 1:36 AM Subject: Varmints (Re: Does anyone know these?...) >On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, R. Joe Campbell wrote: > >| tepanchichi >| mouse >| >| tepanmamal >| mouse >| >| calxoch >| mouse > >What are the differences between these animals? Does any one of them come >close to the memaloose found in the Mt. Hood National Forest in Oregon? >Memalooses are bigger than rats, about a foot to a yard in height, sit >back on their haunches, and have opposable thumbs just like monkeys or >possums do. They like to cry out 'mee!' and this might be why they are >called me[e]malooses. They are capable of getting into your backpacks and >would just as soon steal cookies and fruit juice from you if you don't >keep them at bay by throwing rocks at them. I think they are either >omnivorous or vegetarian, and tend to live in troops of about a dozen or >more at once, mostly making their homes in rockpiles in the high cascades. >They are probably related to the white prairie dog of southeastern Oregon, >but instead of living in the plains like to live in higher elevations. > From campbel at indiana.edu Sun Nov 28 21:36:11 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 14:36:11 -0700 Subject: intech Message-ID: Leonel, Here the little list of 'intech' in context that we were discussing.=20 As I have probably said before (and repeat too often), the best way to learn postpositions in Nahuatl is not by hoping to have some invariable translation into one's language, but to learn them by context -- maybe treat them as idioms at first in short phrases. All the best to you and your family, Joe =20 intech** =20 1. *intech* tlamiloya, quilmach tetlahuelia, teca mocayahua,. of them it was supposed and men said: "they hate people; they mock them." (b.1 f.1 p.19).=20 =20 2. icuac quinchichihuaya, quintlamamaca, *intech* quitlalia in iuhqui inechichihual yiacateuctli.. thereupon they arrayed them; they gave them, they placed upon them array like that of yiacatecutli. (b.1 f.2 p.43).=20 =20 3. auh in intlaaltilhuan, yeccan, quinquetza: moch tlazotilmatli, in *intech* quintlalilia:. and their bathed ones they set up in a good place, all in costly mantles, which they placed upon them. (b.1 f.2 p.43).=20 =20 4. iuh mitoa, ca no *intech* pohui in tlaloque:. it is said that he also belonged among the tlalocs. (b.1 f.2 p.45).=20 =20 5. no inhuan pohui, *intech* tlamiloya in tlaloque:. [the tepictoton] also belonged among, were reckoned among the tlalocs. (b.1 f.2 p.47).=20 =20 6. ca intla tlaca intla onca inyollo, intla onca intlacaquiliz: in itlachihualhuan dios, *intech* canazquia, intech quicuizquia, in iximachocatzin dios;. for if men in their hearts, in their understanding, knew god's creations, from them they would have derived, they would have grasped, their knowledge of god. (b.1 f.3 p.56).=20 =20 7. ca intla tlaca intla onca inyollo, intla onca intlacaquiliz: in itlachihualhuan dios, intech canazquia, *intech* quicuizquia, in iximachocatzin dios;. for if men in their hearts, in their understanding, knew god's creations, from them they would have derived, they would have grasped, their knowledge of god. (b.1 f.3 p.56).=20 =20 8. zan *intech* omotlapololtique in itlachihualhuan dios: oquimoteotique in tletl, in atl, in ehecatl, in tonatiuh, in metztli, in cicitlalti;. only they were in confusion as to god's creatures; they worshipped as gods the fire, the water, the wind, the sun, the moon, the stars. (b.1 f.3 p.56).=20 =20 9. c. in tlateotocanime, in icuac *intech* tlacuauhtlamati, in inteohuan, zan no atle impan quimitta,. c. the idolaters, when they put faith in the favor of their gods, do not esteem them. (b.1 f.3 p.60).=20 =20 10. inin teotlatolli, in ixquichtin momaquixtiznequi, cenca *intech* monequi, in yollocopa quineltocazque: yehica ca dios itlatoltzin, ca tlanextli, ca ocotl.. this word of god, which all desire in order to be saved, is greatly required by all who willingly believe in it, because the word of god is a light; it is a torch. (b.1 f.4 p.63).=20 =20 11. in yehuantin in ointlahueliltic, in quimicnotlatlauhtiaya, in imixpan tlalcuaya, in diablosme: ihuan in imixiptlahuan inic quimitlaniliaya, in tlein *intech* monequia:. unhappy are those who prayed humbly to them, who kissed the earth in the presence of the devils and their representations in order to ask what they required. (b.1 f.4 p.64).=20 =20 12. in iuh quichihuaya hi, ca ic quinmahuiztiliaya in inyaohuan, in intecocolicahuan, in intetolinicahua: in atle *intech* monequi mahuizzotl, in atle intech momonequi tetlazotlaliztli:. such they did in order to pay honor to their adversaries, their enemies, those who ill-treated them --who required no honor, who required no love. (b.1 f.4 p.64).=20 =20 13. in iuh quichihuaya hi, ca ic quinmahuiztiliaya in inyaohuan, in intecocolicahuan, in intetolinicahua: in atle intech monequi mahuizzotl, in atle *intech* momonequi tetlazotlaliztli:. such they did in order to pay honor to their adversaries, their enemies, those who ill-treated them --who required no honor, who required no love. (b.1 f.4 p.64).=20 =20 14. oticmochihuilitzino, in ixquich in cualli, in yectli in *intech* ca in motlachihualtzitzinhuan: inic mochi techpalehuiz in titlaca:. thou hast made all that is good, proper, in thy creatures, so that it will be of advantage to us. (b.1 f.4 p.66).=20 =20 15. no ihuan *intech* tlamiloya in tlalloque, in teilaquiliztli, tlahuitequiliztli:. also to the tlalocs were attributed drownings, thunderbolts. (b.1 f.4 p.68).=20 =20 16. no ihuan in cenca tlaelittaloni, in tlateotocanime: in itocatzin dios ipalnemoani, *intech* oquitlalique, in oquichti, in cihua: in miquini, in palanini, in amo cualli innemiliz, in amo cualli inyollo.. also were the idolaters much to be abhorred [because] they placed the name of god, through whom there is life, upon men, upon women, who were mortals, whose lives were evil, whose hearts were evil. (b.1 f.4 p.69).=20 =20 17. in chacuachihui, in cuazahuati, in xotzayani, in tentzayani, in ixtetezonahui, in icxitzayani: ihuan in cualocatl, *intech* motlalia, in tlaxcalicihuiztli.. those applied it to themselves who had head sores, who had pimples on the head, who had cracks on the feet, cracked lips, chapped faces, and jigger fleas; [also] the tortilla-sickness. (b.1 f.5 p.71).=20 =20 18. in *intech* in in intoca, in tlazolteteo, quicui in intoca in amochpochhuan cequintin quimotocayotia, tiacapan, cequintin teicui, cequintin tlaco, cequinti xocotzin.. from these, the names of the goddesses of filth, your young girls have taken their names --some have been named tiacapan, some teicu, some tlaco, some xocotzin. (b.1 f.5 p.71).=20 =20 19. *intech* tlamiloya, quilmach tetlahueliaya, teca mocacayahuaya,. it was an attribute of theirs, it was said, that they were angered by men; they tricked men. (b.1 f.5 p.72).=20 =20 20. mochintin mahuizzotihui, tlacencahualti, tlachichihualti, mochi tlazotlanqui, in *intech* yetiuh, tlazotlantihui,. they all went honored; they were adorned, they were ornamented with all valuable things which went with them. (b.2 f.1 p.44).=20 =20 21. in mochintin tototecti: ic niman *intech* yetiquiza, quintlalochtoca, quinyaochiuhtihui, quimaacitihui, quinmamacuitihui. all the tototecti then set upon [the warriors]; they took after them; they went fighting them; they went capturing them; they went taking them in their hands. (b.2 f.1 p.50).=20 =20 22. quimocuilia *intech* monequi, quicua:. they took away for themselves what they required; they ate them. (b.2 f.3 p.81).=20 =20 23. auh in cequinti aoctle *intech* aci impan tlacotoni, yehuantin in za tetzaucticate, in za tlatzaucticate, in za tlacuitlapiloa,. and there were some to whom nothing came; it broke off with them --those who only came last after the others, who were only last, who only hung on at the tail [of the line]. (b.2 f.5 p.97).=20 =20 24. auh in ichpopochti in *intech* pohui chichicomecoa: motenehua, cihuatlamacazque:. and the maidens who belonged with the chicome coatl [priests] were known as offering priestesses. (b.2 f.7 p.124).=20 =20 25. niman ic quimehuitia, *intech* yetiquiza, quintoca, tlacahuacatiuh.. then she sent them forth; she set after them; she pursued them; she went crying war cries. (b.2 f.7 p.125).=20 =20 26. mochi yancuic, in *intech* quitlaliaya in incue, in inhuipil,. all new were their shifts, their skirts, which they had put on them. (b.2 f.8 p.133).=20 =20 27. inic iuh quichihua i, quilmach ompa *intech* monequiz in ompa yazque, in icuac miquiz ompa quihualchiaz.. for this reason they thus did it: it was said that they would be required there where they were to go; when they died, [these things] would await them there. (b.2 f.8 p.138).=20 =20 28. in onacxoyatlaliaya, zan pepetlauhtihui, atle *intech* huetztiuh,. when they were laying down the fir [branches], they went quite naked; nothing went on them. (b.2 f.8 p.140).=20 =20 29. *intech* quitlalique in imamatlatqui, in anecoyotl, intzitzicaz, amatitech pipilcac, tlacuilolli, ihuan in coyolli incotztitech quiilpique,. on them [selves] they placed their paper array, the paper crowns, their nettles hanging from the painted papers; and they bound little bells to the calves of their legs. (b.3 f.1 p.3).=20 =20 30. ca cenca *intech* motlapalo in quintocac.. he was very bold against them as he took after them. (b.3 f.1 p.4).=20 =20 31. auh in molquitl, amo *intech* monequia, zan ic temazcallatiaya,. the maize rejects they did not need; they only burned them [to heat] the sweat baths with them. (b.3 f.2 p.14).=20 =20 32. auh in, i, tonalamatl oc cenca ye melahuac, ic motocayotiz, nahuallotl, ca nahualti *intech* pohuia.. and this book of days is more correctly called sorcery, for it belonged to the sorcerers. (b.4 f.1 p.1).=20 =20 33. *intech* quicahuaya, intech quipiloaya in tiacahuan, yaopan concahuaya:. they entrusted it to and sent it in the charge of brave chieftains, who left it at the battlefield. (b.4 f.1 p.3).=20 =20 34. intech quicahuaya, *intech* quipiloaya in tiacahuan, yaopan concahuaya:. they entrusted it to and sent it in the charge of brave chieftains, who left it at the battlefield. (b.4 f.1 p.3).=20 =20 35. auh za ompa cana tepal quicnopilhuia, in *intech* monequi ipilhuan, inic ihiyocuizque,. but somewhere by the intercession of others, he secured that which his children needed to eat. (b.4 f.2 p.17).=20 =20 36. auh in teyacanqui, in teyacanani, mitotiani, motlaquitotiani, tlamoyauhqui, tozcacuecuechoani, tocuilechoani, tlacocoloani: moch yehuan *intech* pohuia, intech acia, in mitoa:. and the leaders and conductors of the dance, the dancers, those who urged the dancers on, those who distributed them, those with trembling voices, those who made noises like a weasel; the circle dancers, and all who belonged and worked with those mentioned. (b.4 f.3 p.26).=20 =20 37. auh in teyacanqui, in teyacanani, mitotiani, motlaquitotiani, tlamoyauhqui, tozcacuecuechoani, tocuilechoani, tlacocoloani: moch yehuan intech pohuia, *intech* acia, in mitoa:. and the leaders and conductors of the dance, the dancers, those who urged the dancers on, those who distributed them, those with trembling voices, those who made noises like a weasel; the circle dancers, and all who belonged and worked with those mentioned. (b.4 f.3 p.26).=20 =20 38. oncan motenehua in izquitlamantli in amo cualli *intech* ca. here are told all the various kinds of evil which belonged with [the day signs]. (b.4 f.5 p.48).=20 =20 39. inic matlactli on nahui capitulo: itechpa tlatoa, in cualli, tonalli: in *intech* ca in nauhtetl calli: in ipan in machiotl,. fourteenth chapter, which telleth of the good day signs which correspond to the four houses in this sign; (b.4 f.6 p.51).=20 =20 40. centlamic quimattica, quicentlamitica, oyaque in *intech* oatlamatia, in intech ocuecuenotia, in oquimonpopoaya, in ixco oquinmanaya, in oquitepehuitinenca, in ocololhuitinenca, in oquitetepehuiaya, ocoololhuyaya, oquimomactocac, omonelchiuh,. gone were those who had made them proud and esteemed, those received in payment, as offerings; those who had lived together, assembled, gathered, united, esteemed, appropriated. (b.4 f.6 p.54).=20 =20 41. centlamic quimattica, quicentlamitica, oyaque in intech oatlamatia, in *intech* ocuecuenotia, in oquimonpopoaya, in ixco oquinmanaya, in oquitepehuitinenca, in ocololhuitinenca, in oquitetepehuiaya, ocoololhuyaya, oquimomactocac, omonelchiuh,. gone were those who had made them proud and esteemed, those received in payment, as offerings; those who had lived together, assembled, gathered, united, esteemed, appropriated. (b.4 f.6 p.54).=20 =20 42. *intech* ontzopi,. they were forced to pay. (b.4 f.7 p.71).=20 =20 43. niman ic quicuania zan ic concuitimani, ic conicuanitimani, *intech* pohui in calpolhuehuetque, quimoxexelhuia, quimomamaca, quecizquican quimicuanilia,. then the old men of the temple district [of uitzilopochtli] removed, continued to take and transport, divided, and distributed, what pertained to them. they removed it to a number of places. (b.4 f.8 p.78).=20 =20 44. moch *intech* aciz, in nemactiz, in ixquich ic otlatequililoque, in chieltilo, inin ca oitoloc,. all which they came by and received as gifts, all the things which had been set aside and placed apart [by the host]--this hath been told. (b.4 f.11 p.121).=20 =20 45. hualaquetza onmocuaahayohuia: ic ommotonallalilia: inic *intech* oacca mahuiztli:. they raised their heads and revived their spirits; for their fates were so established that fear should no longer be with them. (b.5 f.1 p.155).=20 =20 46. ihcuac in ye huecahua, tlein oquitocaque: mochi yehuan *intech* tlami in tecocoliani, in temiquitlanini, in temiquiztemachique, in temiquiztemachiani, in tehueiyecoani, in atlaca in tlatlacatecolo: in motenehua, tepoloani. when the ones which had been buried remained, they always were attributed to the enemy, who would have one dead, who wished one to perish--who hoped one would die; those of great lust; inhuman; demons, the so-called destroyers of men. (b.5 f.2 p.173).=20 =20 47. ic ce capitulo, oncan mitoa: in tlatolli in huel inyollo *intech* quizaya: in quitoaya: in ihcuac quitlatlauhtiaya, in huei inteouh catca, in yehuatl tezcatlipoca: anozo titlacahua: anozo yaotl: in ihcuac cocoliztli momanaya, inic quipopoloz.. first chapter. here are told the words which truly issued from their hearts when they spoke, at the time that they supplicated him who was their principal god, the one [who was] tezcatlipoca, or titlacauan, or yaotl, at the time that a plague prevailed, that he might destroy it. (b.6 f.1 p.1).=20 =20 48. ic ome capitulo, oncan motenehua: in tlatolli in huel inyollo *intech* quizaya: inic quitlatlauhtiaya tezcatlipoca: in quitocayotiaya yohualli, ehecatl: inic quitlaniliaya necuiltonoliztli, inic amo motolinizque.. second chapter. here are related the words which truly issued from their hearts as they prayed to texcatlipoca, whom they named the night, the wind, as they asked riches, so that they would not be poor. (b.6 f.1 p.7).=20 =20 49. auh manozo ihuian, yocoxca *intech* onaciz in tiacahuan in yaomicque, in tepilhuan: in quitziccuacuatzin, in maceuhcatzin, in tlacahuepantzin, in ixtlilcuechahuac, in ihhuitl temoc in chahuacuetzin: auh in ye mochintin, in ye ixquichtin, in cuauhti in ocelo, in ilhuicatl itic, in ompa cahuiltia in tonatiuh, in xippilli in tiacauh in yaomicqui in ompa coyohuia:. and may they in peace, in repose, arrive among the valiant warriors, those who died in war, the noblemen, quitzicquaquatzin, maceuhcatzin, tlacauepantzin, ixtlilcuechauac, ihuitl temoc, [and] chahuacuetzin; and all, all the several eagle warriors, the ocelot warriors who are in the heavens where they gladden the sun, the turquoise prince, the valiant warrior, the one who died in war--they cry out to him there. (b.6 f.1 p.13).=20 =20 50. in *intech* onaciz, in intech ompohuiz in tiacahuan, in yaomicque, in cuauhtin ocelo: in quinamiqui, in cahuiltia in totonametl in xippilli:. "they will arrive among, will belong with the valiant warriors, those who died in war, the eagle warriors, the ocelot warriors who receive, who gladden the resplendent one, the turquoise prince." (b.6 f.2 p.15).=20 =20 51. in intech onaciz, in *intech* ompohuiz in tiacahuan, in yaomicque, in cuauhtin ocelo: in quinamiqui, in cahuiltia in totonametl in xippilli:. "they will arrive among, will belong with the valiant warriors, those who died in war, the eagle warriors, the ocelot warriors who receive, who gladden the resplendent one, the turquoise prince." (b.6 f.2 p.15).=20 =20 52. auh ca nelle axcan, ca *intech* oonacic ca oquimonma in iachcocolhuan, in itechiuhcahuan in ye nachca onmantihui, in oyecoco in petlapan, in icpalpan in teteucti, in tlatoque: in tlacatl in acamapichtli, in tizocic, in ahuitzotl, in huehue moteuczoma, in axayaca: in nican onicatiuh in moteuczoma in ilhuicamina,. "and verily now he hath approached, he hath known his great-grandfathers, his progenitors, those who had already gone beyond to reside, those who had come to establish the realm--the lords, the rulers, the lord acamapichtli, [and] ti=87oc, auitzotl, ueue motecu=87oma, axayacatl, the one who hath here followed motecu=87oma ilhuicamina. (b.6 f.2 p.22).=20 =20 53. ac ninomati in intlan tinechmicuanilia in *intech* tinechmaxitilia, in intech tinechmopohuilia in motlaiximachhuan, in mocnihuan, in motlapepenalhuan in ilhuileque, in macehualeque:. who do I think I am that thou movest me among, thou bringest me among, thou countest me with thy acquaintances, thy friends, thy chosen ones, those who have desert, those who have merit? (b.6 f.4 p.41).=20 =20 54. ac ninomati in intlan tinechmicuanilia in intech tinechmaxitilia, in *intech* tinechmopohuilia in motlaiximachhuan, in mocnihuan, in motlapepenalhuan in ilhuileque, in macehualeque:. who do I think I am that thou movest me among, thou bringest me among, thou countest me with thy acquaintances, thy friends, thy chosen ones, those who have desert, those who have merit? (b.6 f.4 p.41).=20 =20 55. auh in oncan tiquinmotlamamaquilia, in huel tiquinmocencahuilia, in *intech* timotlatlatlalilia in tiquinmohueililia, in tiquinmohuecapanilhuia in tetepeyotl, in xihuitzolli: auh in nacochtli, in tentetl, in tlalpiloni, in matemecatl, in cotzehuatl, in cozcatl, in quetzalli.. "and there thou dost bequeath them, thou arrayest them with, thou placest upon the, thou honorest them, glorifiest them with the peaked hat, the turquoise diadem, and the earplug, the lip plug, the head band, the arm band, the band for the calf of the leg, the necklace, the precious feather. (b.6 f.4 p.44).=20 =20 56. at *intech* tonaciz in cuauhtin, in ocelo in tiacahuan, in cahuiltia, in coyohuia in tonatiuh, in tiacauh in cuauhtlehuanitl,. perhaps thou wilt arrive by the eagle warriors, the ocelot warriors, the brave warriors who gladden, who cry out to the sun, the valiant warrior, the ascending eagle. (b.6 f.5 p.58).=20 =20 57. inin ye yehuatl in imaxca, in *intech* pouhqui in toteucyohuan, in tlatoque,. this is the property of--it belongeth to--the lords, the rulers. (b.6 f.8 p.95).=20 =20 58. cenca *intech* monequi in telpopochti, in ichpopochti.. it is especially useful for the youths, for the maidens. (b.6 f.8 p.99).=20 =20 59. no huel *intech* neyolcocolo: inic mochi tlacatl quinequi, quitemoa, quelehuia inin miquiztli cenca yectenehualo.. also they are much envied, so that all people desire, seek, long for this death, [for such] are much praised. (b.6 f.10 p.114).=20 =20 60. izca ihuan in cualtin, in yectin: in cualli inyollo, *intech* netlacaneconi,. "behold also the good, the fine, the good of heart, those worthy of confidence. (b.6 f.10 p.116).=20 =20 61. auh inin cihua, amo zan ceceppa in *intech* aci: ahzo quen nanappa, mamacuilpa:. and to these women he hath access not only once with each one, but four or five times with each one, more or less. (b.6 f.10 p.125).=20 =20 62. achtopa yehuantin in mahuiztililoni, in teteuctin, in achcacauhtin, in tequihuaque, ihuan in tlapaliuhcayaca, ihuan in zan huel tlapalihui: in mach huel yehuan, ye *intech* ompohui: niman yehuantin in tiachcahuan, in telpochtlatoque: niman yehuantin in ixquichtin in tehuayolque, in itechcopa oquichtli, ihuan itechcopa cihuatl.. first those who were illustrious, the lords, the captains, the seasoned warriors, and those who guided the groom, and the moderately matured youths, those same among whom [the groom] belonged, and then those who were the masters of the youths, the rulers of the youths; then those who were all the kinsmen of the man and of the woman. (b.6 f.11 p.129).=20 =20 63. in axcan, ca ic *intech* tompachihui in ilamatque: ye toconpehualtia in ilamanemiliztli:. now thou approachest the old women; already thou commencest the life of an old woman. (b.6 f.11 p.130).=20 =20 64. ma *intech* xonmaxiti, ma intlan xonmocalaqui.. arrive with them, enter among them! (b.6 f.14 p.164).=20 =20 65. auh in ixic *intech* quicahuaya tequihuaque, in yaoc matini: inic ompa quitocazque in ixtlahuatl iitic, in oncan mochihuia yaoyotl:. and she entrusted his umbilical cord to the distinguished warriors, those wise in war, to bury it there in the midst of the plains where warfare was practised. (b.6 f.14 p.171).=20 =20 66. cuix huel *intech* aciz, motolinia in macehualli:. perhaps the poor commoner will be able to arrive by them. (b.6 f.16 p.203).=20 =20 67. *intech* tipouhqui in cuauhtin, ocelo, in tiacahuan, in yaomicque in cahuiltia, in coyohuia tonatiuh:. thou belongest with the eagle warriors, with the ocelot warriors, with the valiant warriors, those who died in war, who gladden, who cry out to the sun." (b.6 f.17 p.204).=20 =20 68. ma *intech* xicmopohuili, ma inihuan pohui in tlamaceuhque, in tlamacazque, in motecque.. assign her to -- may she be with -- the penitent, the priestesses, those of cut [hair]. (b.6 f.17 p.210).=20 =20 69. auh inin noxocoyouh, nochpochtzin: ma zan ihuian, ma zan yocoxca xonmohuica: ma *intech* xonmaxiti, ma intech xonmopachihuiti in tlazocihuapipilti, in ichpopochtin in ihueltihuatzitzinhuan toteucyo, in mitoa, motenehua ipitzitzinhuan in tlamaceuhque, in chocani, in tlaocoyani.. and [because of] this, my youngest child, my daughter, go carefully, little by little; arrive with, approach the precious noblewomen, the virgins, the beloved older sisters of our lord, those called, those named the older sisters, the penitents, the weepers, the sad ones. (b.6 f.17 p.217).=20 =20 70. auh inin noxocoyouh, nochpochtzin: ma zan ihuian, ma zan yocoxca xonmohuica: ma intech xonmaxiti, ma *intech* xonmopachihuiti in tlazocihuapipilti, in ichpopochtin in ihueltihuatzitzinhuan toteucyo, in mitoa, motenehua ipitzitzinhuan in tlamaceuhque, in chocani, in tlaocoyani.. and [because of] this, my youngest child, my daughter, go carefully, little by little; arrive with, approach the precious noblewomen, the virgins, the beloved older sisters of our lord, those called, those named the older sisters, the penitents, the weepers, the sad ones. (b.6 f.17 p.217).=20 =20 71. ipampa ca in ye huecauh, in octli *intech* quitlamiliaya in totochtin, in quinmoteotiaya huehuetque.. it is because in times of old, wine was falsely attributed to the rabbits, whom the ancient ones worshipped. (b.6 f.18 p.230).=20 =20 72. inin tlatolli *intech* mitoaya, in aquique in ye onmictilozque in ye ontlecahuilo, inic miquizque:. this saying was said of those who were about to be put to death, who already had been brought up to die: (b.6 f.19 p.242).=20 =20 73. inin tlatolli: *intech* mitoaya in aquique inpallacua, atli pipilti, anozo altepetl: ahzo motlauhtia, anozo in tlein quicua:. this saying was said of those who ate, who drank by the grace of the noblemen or of the city, or they were helped perhaps in that which they ate. (b.6 f.19 p.247).=20 =20 74. *intech* tlamiloya in mixtli, in quiahuitl, in tecihuitl, in cehpayahuitl, in ayahuitl, in tlapetlaniliztli, in tlatlatziniliztl= i, in tehuitequiliztli.. to them were attributed clouds, rain, hail, snow, mist, sheet lightning, thunder, and lightning bolts which struck men. (b.7 f.2 p.18).=20 =20 75. in hualmozcalizque, in hualixtlamatizque, in huallachiazque, ye *intech* ca in intlacoyo,. when they matured, when they gained prudence, when they looked about, already servitude would be upon them. (b.7 f.2 p.24).=20 =20 76. ic cenca momauhtique, in tlaxcalteca, auh in yehuantin, in tlaxcalteca, niman ic tlaihuaque, quinmacato in tlacualli, in ixquich *intech* monequi:. by this were the tlaxcalans much frightened, and these tlaxcalans then sent messengers, [who] went to offer them food and all which they might need. (b.8 f.2 p.21).=20 =20 77. inic chicuei capitulo, oncan mitoa in izquitlamantli: in nechichihuaya tlatoque in pipilti in *intech* quitlaliaya, inic mocencahuaya in tilmatli in maxtlatl.. eighth chapter, in which are told the various articles with which they adorned the rulers and noblemen---which they placed on them when they were bedight in capes and breech clouts. (b.8 f.2 p.23).=20 =20 78. auh in ihcuac itla quinmachilia in tlatoani, ahzo tlahuanaliztli, anozo nemecatiliztli, anozo itla icampa quiquixtia, in tlatoani: in amo itencopa, itla quitetequitia in calla ahzo atl, tlacualli tequipan yecahui, moyocoya, quitetequitia inic *intech* monequi, niman tlanahuatia in tlatoani, cuauhcalco quintlalia,. and when the ruler knew something ill of them--either drunkenness or concubinage; or that they wrought something to their advantage behind the back of the ruler; [or] that without his command they levied tribute on the town, perchance of chocolate, or of food, which became a tribute, and it was done without leave, and [that] they exacted as tribute whatsoever they wished, then the ruler commanded that they be jailed in wooden cages. (b.8 f.3 p.43).=20 =20 79. in quinpaquiltia, in quintlauhtia, ihuan in quinmaca, in ixquich *intech* monequi:. he gave them contentment and he gave them gifts; he bestowed upon them whatsoever they needed. (b.8 f.3 p.54).=20 =20 80. auh im pipilti in ihcuac tlaotlamahqz. amo motecozauhaltia, zan tlauhtica mohzaya quicemaque in nohuia *intech*. auh mopotonia cuauhtlachcayotica.. and the noblemen, when they had taken some captives, did not anoint themselves with yellow but rather stained themselves with red ochre, which they put on all over; and they were pasted with eagle down. (b.8 f.5 p.83).=20 =20 81. auh izcatqui in zan imixcoyan intlatqui pochteca, inic onoztomecati, onteconenemi, tepeyo, teocuitlatl: iuhquin tlatocayotl, ihuan teocuitlaixcuaamatl, ihuan chayahuac cozcatl, teocuitlatl, ihuan teocuitlanacochtli, ihuan teocuitlatl tlatzacualoni, *intech* monequi in anahuacacihua: yehuantin in cihuapipilti, ic quitzacua in innacayo, ihuan in maxitlaztli, in itoca matzatzaztli, ihuan teocuitlanacochtli, ihuan tehuilonacochtli.. and behold what were the goods exclusively of the merchants, those in which they dealt as vanguard merchants, [as] reconnoiterers: golden mountain-shaped mitres, like royal crowns; and golden forehead rosettes; and golden necklaces of radiating pendants; and golden ear plugs; and golden covers used by women of anauac--with these the princesses covered their bodies; and rings for the fingers, called matzatzaztli; and golden ear plugs; and rock crystal ear plugs. (b.9 f.1 p.8).=20 =20 82. auh in zan macehualti *intech* monequi: yehuatl in itznacochtli, amochitl, ihuan itztlaehualli neximaloni, ihuan huitzauhqui itztli, ihuan tochomitl, ihuan huitzmallotl, ihuan coyolli.. and the things used by the common folk were obsidian ear plugs, [or] tin, and obsidian razors with leather handles, and pointed obsidian blades, and rabbit fur, and needles for sewing, and shells. (b.9 f.1 p.8).=20 =20 83. auh izcatqui in *intech* monequia cihuapipilti: teocuitlatzahualcaxitl, ihuan teocuitlanacochtli, ihuan tehuilonacochtli.. and these were what the princesses required: golden bowls for spindles, and ear plugs of gold and of rock crystal. (b.9 f.2 p.18).=20 =20 84. auh in za macehualti *intech* monequia: itznacochtli, tepoznacochtli: ihuan itztlaehualli neximaloni: ihuan huitzauhqui ihuan coyolli, ihuan huitzmallotl: nocheztli, tlalxocotl, tochomitl, tlacopatli, xochipatli.. but those who were only commoners required obsidian ear plugs, copper ear plugs, and razors of obsidian with leather handles, and pointed obsidian blades, and shells, and needles; [and] cochineal, alum, rabbit fur, birthwort, [and] cosmos sulphureus. (b.9 f.2 p.18).=20 =20 85. inic concuia in ixquich omoteneuh in apozonalli, tezzacatl, mochihuaya ihuan tencolli, in *intech* monequia in huehuei oquichti, in huehuei tiacahuan, in aocmo quimacacia yaoyotl ; in aoc tle ipan quittaya, in ohuel imixmacic, in iuh yaotihua, in iuh tetlamaltilo.. for it, they secured all that hath been mentioned: amber, of which were made the labrets and curved lip plugs which the great warriors, the great chieftains required--those who no longer dreaded war; who scorned it; who knew well how war was waged, how captives were taken. (b.9 f.2 p.22).=20 =20 86. in ihcuac ye *intech* quiza nanacatl, in oncan mitotia, oncan choca:. when the mushrooms took effect on them, then they danced, then they wept. (b.9 f.4 p.39).=20 =20 87. o yehuantin i in *intech* monequi in quintlauhtiaya tealti.. to these the bather of slaves gave gifts according to their liking. (b.9 f.4 p.47).=20 =20 88. cuezcontica quiquehquetzaya: *intech* monequia in ixquichtin quipalehuiaya, inic amo apizmiquizque: inic tlaiya, inic tlaihualhuia, pochteca caxitl inic temacoya atolli ayohuachpani:. using bins he placed about all things required to assist them, that they might not go hungry, that they might drink--that there would be what all might drink; [and] merchants' vessels in which atole topped with squash seeds might be served. (b.9 f.4 p.48).=20 =20 89. mochi on oncan contlalia in ixpan iyacateuctli inic oncan ittoz, in iuhqui *intech* quitlalizque tlaaltilti,. he placed all there before [the image of] yacatecutli, so that it might be seen there what he would place on the bathed ones. (b.9 f.4 p.51).=20 =20 90. niman iciuhca quicencahua, in *intech* monequiz, in pochtecatlatoque, in nahualoztomeca:. then he quickly prepared what would be required for the principal merchants, the disguised merchants. (b.9 f.5 p.55).=20 =20 91. yehuatl in quinmaca in omoteneuh, in *intech* pohui in nahualoztomeca, in amanepaniuhqui, ihuan tlazomaxtlatl yacahuiyac.. he gave them the things [already] mentioned which pertained to the disguised merchants: capes with plaited paper ornaments and precious breech clouts with long ends. (b.9 f.5 p.55).=20 =20 92. quinmaca in *intech* pohui in tilmatli, in maxtlatl, in cueitl in huipilli, in cuetentli, conaquia in itenco:. he gave them what pertained to them: the capes, the breech clouts, the skirts, the shifts along whose borders they had placed the trimming. (b.9 f.5 p.59).=20 =20 93. in nahuintin i, iuh quitoa, ca yehuatl *intech* quitlamiaya in toltecayotl ;. to these four [gods], so they said, they attributed the art [of the lapidary]. (b.9 f.6 p.80).=20 =20 94. inic ontlamantli imonecca: cihua *intech* monequi quicuacua in chapopotli.. as its second use, it is used by women; they chew the bitumen. (b.10 f.5 p.89).=20 =20 95. no yehuantin *intech* monequi in ye huel cihua in ye huel ichpopochti: ihuan mochin in cihua, in ichpopochti mixmana in tziccuacua.. also the mature women, the unmarried women use it; and all the women who [are] unmarried chew chicle in public. (b.10 f.5 p.89).=20 =20 96. inic cempoalli on chicome capitulo: intechpa tlatoa in cuitlaxcolli, ihuan in ixquich tehitic onoc, ihuan in ixquich pani onoc, huihuilteccayotl, in totech cah, in toquichti, ihuan in cihua *intech* cah.. Twenty-seventh chapter, which telleth of the intestines, and of all the internal organs, and of all the external organs, [and] of the joints pertaining to men and pertaining to women. (b.10 f.6 p.95a).=20 =20 97. xopilli *intech* tlahuicollotilo. it is looped to toes (b.10 f.7 p.127b).=20 =20 98. zan *intech* man, intech quiz, in intoca, in innemiliz, in intlachihual. their name is taken from -it comes from -their manner of life, their works. (b.10 f.10 p.165).=20 =20 99. zan intech man, *intech* quiz, in intoca, in innemiliz, in intlachihual. their name is taken from -it comes from -their manner of life, their works. (b.10 f.10 p.165).=20 =20 100. auh huel quimatia in quen yauh in ilhuicatl in quenin momalacachoa, *intech* quittaya in cicitlalti:. and they understood well the movements of the heavens; their orbits they learned from the stars. (b.10 f.10 p.168).=20 =20 101. no achitzitzin, tzotzomatzintli, tatapatzintli *intech* quitlalia:. also they put on a few rags --tattered capes. (b.10 f.10 p.171).=20 =20 102. no ihui in mochichihua in ye mochintin chichimeca: zan amo quicui, amo *intech* pohui in tecuanehuatl, in tecuanicpalli: zan mazayehuatzintli, coyoyehuatzintli, oztoyehuatzintli, oztoyehuatl, techaloyehuatl. etc.. also likewise were arrayed all the [teo] chichimeca, only they took not the wild animal skins, the wild animal seats --they did not belong to them: only small deer skins, small coyote skins, small grey fox skins, grey fox skins, squirrel skins, etc. (b.10 f.10 p.173).=20 =20 103. inin yetlamanixtin i, tlacaciuhque *intech* ca in tlacanemiliztli,. these three were peaceful; the way of life which corresponded to them, civilized. (b.10 f.10 p.175).=20 =20 104. huel *intech* ca in ixquich ixtlamatiliztli, in nematiliztli, ihuan in toltecayotl,. in them were all prudence, industry, and craftmanship. (b.10 f.11 p.176).=20 =20 105. inique i, otomi, *intech* ca in tlacanemiliztli. these otomi had a civilized way of life. (b.10 f.11 p.176).=20 =20 106. in otomi: cenca topalme, xacanme, quitoznequi: in tlein tilmatli, tlaquemitl tetonal: mochi quicui, mochi *intech* quitlalia inic xacanme,. the otomi were very gaudy dressers --vain people; that is to say, what there were of capes, of clothing, which were one's special privilege, they took all, they wore all, to be vain people. (b.10 f.11 p.178).=20 =20 107. amo moyectlalpilia, ic *intech* mitoa. can mach mito, ac mach mitztocayoti in totomitl. it was not worn in good taste; thus of them was said: "hath it possibly been said that someone called thee an otomi? (b.10 f.11 p.179).=20 =20 108. auh inic topalti, inic xacanme, inic otomi: in ilamatoton oc no mixcuatequi, oc no moxoxocolxima, oc no motlamiahua, oc moxahua, oc mopotonia in tlapalihhuitica, oc no *intech* quitlalia in tlamachcueitl, in tlamachhuipilli.. and as gaudy dressers, as vain as the [other] otomi, were the old women, who still also cut the hair over the forehead; who still also cut the hair on one side, leaving the other side long; who still also darkened their teeth, still painted their faces, still pasted themselves with red feathers; who still also put on the embroidered skirts, the embroidered shifts. (b.10 f.11 p.179).=20 =20 109. inique in, huel *intech* ca in tlacayotl, in tlacanemiliztli:. to these corresponded a humane, civilized life. (b.10 f.11 p.184).=20 =20 110. ihuan no *intech* tlacalehualo in otomi,. and also they were reckoned among the otomi people. (b.10 f.11 p.186).=20 =20 111. ihuan quimihua in achcacauhti, chicahuaque, in tiacahuan in ipan tlatozque in ixquich *intech* monequiz in cualoni in totoli in totoltetl, in iztac tlaxcalli: ihuan in tlein quitlanizque,. and he sent the elders, the hardy [warriors], the brave [warriors] to secure [for the spaniards] all the food they would need: turkey hens, eggs, white tortillas, and what they might desire. (b.12 f.2 p.21).=20 =20 112. niman ic tetlacuauhnahuati in moteuczoma, huel quincocolti, huel quintenizti, quinmiquiznahuati in calpixque: auh in ixquich in teuctli, in achcauhtli in quittazque, in quimocuitlahuizque in ixquich *intech* monequiz.. then moctezuma sternly commanded, charged, enjoined, ordered on pain of death the stewards and all the lords, the elders, to see to, to care for everything [the spaniards] might need. (b.12 f.2 p.23).=20 =20 113. in za mocuitlacueptinemi in titlanti, in ipan ontlatoa in izquitlamantli, in izquican icac in *intech* monequiz.. the emissaries, those who had interceded for them for everything, everywhere, that they might need, just went, turning their backs. (b.12 f.2 p.25).=20 =20 114. auh cenca *intech* moyollaliaya intech huel catca iyollo, intech tlacuauhtlamatia: cequintin quimomachiztiaya, in quitoaya. ca ommati in mictlan, ihuan tonatiuh ichan, ihuan tlalocan ihuan cincalco inic ompatiz in campa ye huel motlanequiliz.. and of those whom he much unburdened himself to, confided in, held especially easy conversation with some told what they knew; they said: " [some] know where mictlan is, and tonatiuh ichan, and tlalocan, and cincalco, that one may be benefited. [determine] in what place indeed is thy need." (b.12 f.2 p.26).=20 =20 115. auh cenca intech moyollaliaya *intech* huel catca iyollo, intech tlacuauhtlamatia: cequintin quimomachiztiaya, in quitoaya. ca ommati in mictlan, ihuan tonatiuh ichan, ihuan tlalocan ihuan cincalco inic ompatiz in campa ye huel motlanequiliz.. and of those whom he much unburdened himself to, confided in, held especially easy conversation with some told what they knew; they said: " [some] know where mictlan is, and tonatiuh ichan, and tlalocan, and cincalco, that one may be benefited. [determine] in what place indeed is thy need." (b.12 f.2 p.26).=20 =20 116. auh cenca intech moyollaliaya intech huel catca iyollo, *intech* tlacuauhtlamatia: cequintin quimomachiztiaya, in quitoaya. ca ommati in mictlan, ihuan tonatiuh ichan, ihuan tlalocan ihuan cincalco inic ompatiz in campa ye huel motlanequiliz.. and of those whom he much unburdened himself to, confided in, held especially easy conversation with some told what they knew; they said: " [some] know where mictlan is, and tonatiuh ichan, and tlalocan, and cincalco, that one may be benefited. [determine] in what place indeed is thy need." (b.12 f.2 p.26).=20 =20 117. quinmacaque in *intech* monequi inca mochiuhque. they gave them whatsoever they required; they attended to them. (b.12 f.2 p.29).=20 =20 118. auh in otlathuic, niman ye ic motzatzilia in ixquich *intech* monequi, in iztac tlaxcalli, totollalehuatzalli, totoltetl, chipahuac atl, in cuahuitl, in tlatlatilcuahuitl, in tecolli, in apaztli, in petzcaxitl, in apilloli, in tzotzocolli, in tlatzoyonilcaxitl, in ye ixquich in zoquitlatquitl:. and when it dawned, thereupon were proclaimed all the things which [the spaniards] required: white tortillas, roasted turkey hens, eggs, fresh water, wood, firewood, charcoal, earthen bowls, polished vessels, water jars, large water pitchers, cooking vessels, all manner of clay articles. (b.12 f.3 p.45).=20 =20 119. moch *intech* compachoque moch conmotechtique, moch conmotonaltique.. they possessed themselves of all, they appropriated all to themselves, they took all to themselves as their lot. (b.12 f.3 p.48).=20 =20 120. tel amo ic mocahua, amo ic netzotzonalo in concahua in ixquich *intech* monequi, za in mauhcac in concahuaya,. yet not because of this did they stop; not for this was there hesitation in leaving what [the spaniards] required, but they left it in fear. (b.12 f.3 p.50).=20 =20 121. auh niman ye ic quimicahuatztihui, quimololhuitihui, *intech* icatihui in mexica, quimaantihui in tlaxcalteca ihuan in espa=A4oles mictihui:. and thereupon the mexicans went roaring at them, they went surrounding them, took after them; they went taking numbers of the tlaxcallans, and the spaniards they went slaying. (b.12 f.5 p.68).=20 =20 122. aocmo *intech* onaci, za huecapa quimitztihui za quinhuecapahuitihui, za quinnachcapahuitihui.. not yet did they come up to them; they only remained facing them from afar, they only went dealing with them from there. (b.12 f.5 p.72).=20 =20 123. *intech* motlahuelquixtique, intech mellelquixtique.. (the spaniards] vented their wrath upon them, they took their pleasure with them. (b.12 f.5 p.72).=20 =20 124. intech motlahuelquixtique, *intech* mellelquixtique.. (the spaniards] vented their wrath upon them, they took their pleasure with them. (b.12 f.5 p.72).=20 =20 125. auh intla za acame motlapaloa in *intech* onaci, iuhquin aquim ontlatoltia in quinhualixili,. and if besides any [mexicans] dared go among them as if to interrogate them, [the spaniards] speared them. (b.12 f.5 p.77).=20 =20 126. inic cempoalli on chicome capitulo oncan mitoa in quenin mexica *intech* acito in espa=A4oles inic quintepotztocaya.. twenty-seventh chapter, in which it is told how the mexicans came to reach the spaniards in order to follow them at the rear. (b.12 f.5 p.78).=20 =20 127. auh in cequintin zan huehueca in *intech* motlali in zahuatl, amo cenca quimihioti, amo no miequintin ic micque:. and on some, each pustule was placed on them only far apart; they did not cause much suffering, neither did many die of them. (b.12 f.6 p.82).=20 =20 128. moch quincuilique in inyaotlatqui, ihuan in imichcahuipil, ihuan in ixquich in *intech* catca, moch quintepehualtique:. they took from them all their battle gear and their quilted cotton armor, all which was on them; they completely disrobed them. (b.12 f.7 p.97).=20 =20 129. auh in tzilacatzin, ihuan oc cequintin tiacahuan: in oquimittaque in espa=A4oles: niman *intech* hualyetiquizque,. and tzilacatzin and still other brave warriors, when they saw the spaniards, then quickly went forward against them. (b.12 f.7 p.97).=20 =20 130. auh in tiacahuan *intech* motlapaloque quintocaqueh:. and the brave warriors were fearless against them; they pursued them. (b.12 f.7 p.105).=20 =20 131. auh cencan iyolic *intech* xocotihui, intech caltechpachotihui.. and it was very slowly that (the spaniards) went repulsing them; they went pressing them back against the houses. (b.12 f.7 p.114).=20 =20 132. auh cencan iyolic intech xocotihui, *intech* caltechpachotihui.. and it was very slowly that (the spaniards) went repulsing them; they went pressing them back against the houses. (b.12 f.7 p.114).=20 =20 133. niman ic quintepotztique, zan moch yehuantin in tiyacahuan, ihuan in pipiltin, *intech* yetiquizque nec imicampa quintepotztique,. When all the brave warriors and the noblemen pursued them, emerged against them, then pursued them at their rear guard. (b.12 f.7 p.114).=20 =20 134. amo zan tlalpan anquimayahuizque cenca *intech* in anquitlazazque:. you will not just drop it on the ground; you will cast it strongly at them. (b.12 f.8 p.118).=20 =20 135. zan moch tzotzomatli in *intech* quitlalique.. it was all only rags that they put on themselves. (b.12 f.8 p.122).=20 From jrader at m-w.com Mon Nov 29 15:36:16 1999 From: jrader at m-w.com (Jim Rader) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:36:16 -0700 Subject: Varmints (Re: Does anyone know these?...) Message-ID: A bit off the Nahuatl topic, but the word variously spelled "memaloose," "memaloost," "mimaloos," etc., in Chinook Jargon means "dead." There are several Memaloose Islands in the Columbia River --the ones I find references to are near the town of Hood River in Oregon, not that far from Mt. Hood. The word "memaloose" in place names supposedly refers to Indian burial grounds, which makes sense for these islands, because the Repatriation Office website of the National Museum of Natural History inventories skeletal remains found there. Not to question Mr. Montchalin's recollection, but I can't imagine how this word got applied to an animal (and I can't find any written records of its use in Nexis or our own files). The animal he describes sounds like a marmot, but I'm not at all familiar with the Mt. Hood area and couldn't say if marmots live there. One Nahuatl bird name that's taken a strange turn is , which FK's dictionary defines as Herpetotheres cochinans, the usual vernacular name for which is the Laughing Falcon. Somehow this name got applied the the hoatzin, the international vernacular name for Opisthocomos hoazin, a totally unrelated and dissimilar bird of the Amazon basin, hundreds if not thousands of miles from Mesoamerica. I've never tried to figure how this zoological scramble took place. Just as a matter of curiosity, is described in the Florentine Codex? Jim Rader > What are the differences between these animals? Does any one of them come > close to the memaloose found in the Mt. Hood National Forest in Oregon? > Memalooses are bigger than rats, about a foot to a yard in height, sit > back on their haunches, and have opposable thumbs just like monkeys or > possums do. They like to cry out 'mee!' and this might be why they are > called me[e]malooses. They are capable of getting into your backpacks and > would just as soon steal cookies and fruit juice from you if you don't > keep them at bay by throwing rocks at them. I think they are either > omnivorous or vegetarian, and tend to live in troops of about a dozen or > more at once, mostly making their homes in rockpiles in the high cascades. > They are probably related to the white prairie dog of southeastern Oregon, > but instead of living in the plains like to live in higher elevations. > > From ibarrara at servidor.unam.mx Mon Nov 29 15:52:05 1999 From: ibarrara at servidor.unam.mx (H-Mexico Moderadores (by way of "John F. Schwaller" )) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:52:05 -0700 Subject: Novedades: P. Saurin: Teocuicatl - Cantos sagrados Message-ID: VIENT DE PARAITRE aux Editions Scientifiques du Museum Diffusion : Delphine Henry e.mail : dhenry at mnhn.fr TEOCUICATL Chants sacr=E9s des anciens Mexicains Patrick Saurin 280p., 290F Premi=E8re traduction en fran=E7ais des "chants divins" recueillis au XVI=E8= me si=E8cle par le franciscain Fray Bernardino de Sahagundes dans la vall=E9e= de Tepepulco et conserv=E9s dans le Codex du Palais Royal de Madrid. Communiquer avec les dieux et les atteindre devait =EAtre l'objectif conf=E9= r=E9 =E0 ces hymnes par les anciens Mexicains. L'auteur, sp=E9cialiste des des civilisations du Mexique ancien et de l'interpr=E9tation des textes en langue nahuatl, s'attache =E0 expliciter= "le dit et le dire" de ces chants qui repr=E9sentent selon lui "une des sources de toute premi=E8re importance pour comprendre la pens=E9e religieuse et la cosmologie des anciens Mexicains".=20 ______________________ Marie-Christine Lacoste, CNRS, Information GRAL (Groupe de Recherche sur l'Am=E9rique Latine) Maison de la Recherche, Universit=E9 de Toulouse-le-Mirail 5, All=E9es Antonio Machado - 31058 Toulouse Cedex (France) e.mail : lacoste at univ-tlse2.fr Tel. : 33 (0)5 61 50 43 08 Fax : 33 (0)5 61 50 49 25 http://www.univ-tlse2.fr/amlat "RUMBOS" Lista Electronica de Informacion Cientifica (y Revista de Prensa) : Investigacion sobre y de America Latina, Ciencias Humanas y Sociales, Desarrollo Rural y Urbano, Convocatorias, Publicaciones, Actualidades... (Lenguas de la lista : Espanol, Frances, Ingles, Portugues) Copyright : GRAL, CNRS/UTM, Toulouse From jcoonan at kvlaw.com Mon Nov 29 15:55:05 1999 From: jcoonan at kvlaw.com (James S. Coonan (by way of "John F. Schwaller" )) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:55:05 -0700 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Languages Message-ID: I am looking for a 'family tree' of the Uto-Aztecan languages, showing estimated time depth of splits, reflecting as near as possible the current state of research (or else text from which I can draw the chart). I would prefer an extensive chart, that is one showing as many languages as possible, not simply representative members. Thank you. Jim Coonan Atlanta, Georgia From ochoa at scd.hp.com Mon Nov 29 16:10:08 1999 From: ochoa at scd.hp.com (Marcos Ochoa) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:10:08 -0700 Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin Message-ID: Hello All, I am wondering if there is a list of english and/or spanish words that are strictly nahuatl in origin. I think chili and chocolate are two of the examples. Thank You, -Marcos Romero-Ochoa From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu Mon Nov 29 16:38:03 1999 From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:38:03 -0700 Subject: o Message-ID: Joe, thanks for the data. It seems I was wrong about the "o" in that passage we discussed about a week ago. After looking over the sentences you sent, it looks like they did place the past tense marker "o" before phrases such as "imac", followed by a verb which could have a directional "on" as well (for example, "...oimac onacic...". As I was reading throug these sentences, it seems like I recall you going over this with me before. Anyway, my apologies to those whom I may have misled. Michael, it looks like you were right the first time. Galen Galen From tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com Mon Nov 29 17:07:26 1999 From: tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:07:26 -0700 Subject: A little late --- Cuachalocolamintli Message-ID: There was a previous discussion dealing with Cuachalocolamintli. There was mention that this was a particular astronomical body in space. I was discussing this with a friend and we were analyzing the word itself. >>From Karttunen we have the word A:mintli -- I believe it has something to do with diarhea. It paints a interesting picture, pun intended, A: is from A:tl, min(a) is to shoot with an arrow. and A:min definitely feels like a water arrow.... The second adjective is Co:l which means curved. The word that we are having dificulty is with cuacha..... I remember my grandparents using this word in spanish... as "Pareces un cuachalote...." We understood to mean dirty. There is also reference to buffalo chips as cuachas. This lead to an interesting observation in the Codex Borgia Plate 26. In the four cardinal directions there is a figure of a man painted in red with a excerement colored in red with little eyes in the shape of a fish hook. So, we were able to corralete the word, "Cuachalocolamin" with a codex picture. But we need more information on Cuachalo..... Any thoughts..... Tezozomoc From leonelhermida at netc.pt Mon Nov 29 19:01:18 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:01:18 -0700 Subject: Varmints (Re: Does anyone know these?...) Message-ID: I have at hand a very small extract of the FC where it is spoken of a bird named "huactli", probably identical to the "huactzin": as a matter of fact I have in my collection of Nahuatl animal names the entry "huactli" glossed "black-crowned night heron or laughing falcon" which seems to fit the bird in question. >327. *mo-tocayotia*. inic motocayotia huactli: iuhqui in huactli >itlatol, quichihua: huac, huac: it is named uactli because its >song is like uactli: it makes [the sound] uac, uac. > (b.11 f.4 c.2 p.39) If the origin of the name is indeed imitative (huac,huac), one can well imagine that another unrelated bird just chanced to be called almost identically provided it sounded almost the same. And indeed the Concise Oxford Dictionary gives for the Tropical Amer. bird "hoatzin" the following etymology: "native name, imit." Best regards and thanks for the entry 'huactzin' Leonel >A bit off the Nahuatl topic, but the word variously spelled >"memaloose," "memaloost," "mimaloos," etc., in Chinook Jargon means >"dead." There are several Memaloose Islands in the Columbia River >--the ones I find references to are near the town of Hood River in >Oregon, not that far from Mt. Hood. The word "memaloose" in place >names supposedly refers to Indian burial grounds, which makes sense >for these islands, because the Repatriation Office website of the National >Museum of Natural History inventories skeletal remains found there. >Not to question Mr. Montchalin's recollection, but I can't imagine >how this word got applied to an animal (and I can't find any written >records of its use in Nexis or our own files). The animal he >describes sounds like a marmot, but I'm not at all familiar with the >Mt. Hood area and couldn't say if marmots live there. > >One Nahuatl bird name that's taken a strange turn is , >which FK's dictionary defines as Herpetotheres cochinans, the usual >vernacular name for which is the Laughing Falcon. Somehow this name >got applied the the hoatzin, the international vernacular name for >Opisthocomos hoazin, a totally unrelated and dissimilar bird of the >Amazon basin, hundreds if not thousands of miles from Mesoamerica. >I've never tried to figure how this zoological scramble took place. >Just as a matter of curiosity, is described in the >Florentine Codex? > >Jim Rader > > >> What are the differences between these animals? Does any one of them come >> close to the memaloose found in the Mt. Hood National Forest in Oregon? >> Memalooses are bigger than rats, about a foot to a yard in height, sit >> back on their haunches, and have opposable thumbs just like monkeys or >> possums do. They like to cry out 'mee!' and this might be why they are >> called me[e]malooses. They are capable of getting into your backpacks and >> would just as soon steal cookies and fruit juice from you if you don't >> keep them at bay by throwing rocks at them. I think they are either >> omnivorous or vegetarian, and tend to live in troops of about a dozen or >> more at once, mostly making their homes in rockpiles in the high cascades. >> They are probably related to the white prairie dog of southeastern Oregon, >> but instead of living in the plains like to live in higher elevations. >> >> From a8803917 at unet.univie.ac.at Mon Nov 29 21:15:53 1999 From: a8803917 at unet.univie.ac.at (a8803917) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:15:53 -0700 Subject: (Kein Betreff) Message-ID: i�ve changed my mail-adress, how to do to get the list-mails to my new direction (juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at) ? thank You & ciao juergen stowasser From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Nov 29 23:40:06 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:40:06 -0700 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Languages Message-ID: The most up-to-date publication is Lyle Campbell's American Indian Languages: The Historical Linguistics of Native America. New York and Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1997. ---------- >From: "James S. Coonan" (by way of "John F. Schwaller" ) >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Uto-Aztecan Languages >Date: Mon, Nov 29, 1999, 10:56 AM > > I am looking for a 'family tree' of the Uto-Aztecan languages, > showing estimated time depth of splits, reflecting as near as > possible the current state of research (or else text from which I > can draw the chart). I would prefer an extensive chart, that is > one showing as many languages as possible, not simply representative > members. > > Thank you. > > Jim Coonan > Atlanta, Georgia > > From melesan at pacbell.net Tue Nov 30 03:43:26 1999 From: melesan at pacbell.net (Mel Sanchez) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:43:26 -0700 Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin Message-ID: Marcos Ochoa wrote: > > Hello All, > > I am wondering if there is a list of english and/or spanish words that are > strictly nahuatl in origin. I think chili and chocolate are two of the examples. > > Thank You, > -Marcos Romero-Ochoa A few others: tecolote for owl just found out it comes from xolotl twin of quetzalcoatl the eveing star, hence the evening bird guajolote turkey cuate twin from quetzalcoatl esquinkle small one for English according to Am Heritage Dictionary shack from xacalli and don't forget tamale and tomato. Take care, Mel From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Nov 30 05:41:13 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:41:13 -0700 Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin Message-ID: Marcos, I just re-read your message (which is perfectly clear) and realized (duh!) that you were interested in Spanish words too (I had thought just English words), so here is a list I compiled a few years ago. Best regards, Joe Nahuatl Contributions to Spanish Vocabulary Spanish Word Nahuatl Word Meaning in Spanish amate amatl bark paper (used for paintings) ahuate/ahuatar ahhuatl thorn/to get stuck with a thorn cacle cactli sandal camote camohtli sweet potato chicle tzictli chewing gum (meant sticky gum) chicote xicohtli whip (meant bumblebee) chile chilli chili pepper chocolate xoco-l-atl chocolate (sour-ed-water) coyote coyotl coyote cuate coatl snake, twin, buddy elote elotl ear of corn escuincle izcuintli child, kid (meant dog) gachupin cactli-tzupinia Spaniard (meant sandal-to prick) huipil huipilli indigenous shift, blouse hule ulli, olli rubber itacate itacatl carried lunch jacal xacalli hut mayate mayatl beetle mecate mecatl rope mezquite mizquitl mezquite milpa milpan cornfield mole molli sauce ocote ocotl pine tree, pine wood papalote papalotl paper kite (meant butterfly) petate petlatl reed mat pozole pozolli hominy soup quelite quilitl edible greens tamal tamalli tamale tecolote tecolotl owl tomate tomatl tomato zacate zacatl grass zoquite zoquitl clay, mud Compound Words Spanish Word Nahuatl Word Meaning in Spanish ajolote atl-xolotl salamander (water-doll) guacamole ahuacatl-molli guacamole (avocado-sauce) guajolote huei-xolotl turkey (big-doll/page) jitomate xictli-tomatl tomato (red) (navel-boll) metlapil metlatl-pilli metate grinder (metate-child) petaca petlatl-calli suitcase (reed mat-house/container) pilmama pilli-mama nursemaid (child-carry) tejocote tetl-xocotl kind of fruit (stone-sour) tejolote tetl-xolotl pestle (stone-doll) temazcal temaztli-calli steam-bath house (bath-house) tlacuache tla-cua-tzin possum (something-eat-diminutive) tocayo tocaitl-yo person of the same name (name-ness) zopilote tzotl-piloa vulture (filth-hang) On Mon, 29 Nov 1999, Marcos Ochoa wrote: > Hello All, > > I am wondering if there is a list of english and/or spanish words that are > strictly nahuatl in origin. I think chili and chocolate are two of the examples. > > Thank You, > -Marcos Romero-Ochoa > From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Nov 30 07:04:22 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:04:22 -0700 Subject: numeral variants Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Nov 1999, Leonel Hermida wrote: > This is just for illustrating what I meant by 'variants' in numerals. > I don't include either 'counters' (oontetl) or honorifics (ometzin), though > I include both stand-alone forms and prefix forms (oon-); Leonel, I mark my comments with *** in the relevant places. Can I claim to have entered the domain of "number theory"? <8->) Best regards, Joe > >1. >ce. = one; a; an; single., >ce-. cepa. = once, one time. *** "one" is 'cem' (basically/underlyingly) and the /m/ can become [n] by assimilation or final word position. >cen-. centzontli. = four hundred; many. >cem-. cempoalli. = twenty, cemilhuitl. = one whole day >cep-. ceppa. = once; one time; first; first time. *** The doubling of the 'p' is somehow (but not regularly) caused by the nasal consonant of 'cem'. > >2. >omentin. = two; both. *** -tin is a common plural for nouns. -n- (before -tin) is a plural which occurs on "pronominals": tehhua-n (we), ti-huehhue:i- (we are big [see Andrews, p. 253]), mochi-n (all [pl.]) >omenti. = two. *** -the plural suffix dropped its 'n' ('n' dropping is common and particularly in word-final position, as well as before 'y' and 'w') >omen. = two. *** Same -n as in omentin. >ome. = two; both; couple. >omextin. = two; both. *** The -tin plural suffix is obvious, but the 'x' is not. It is the plural totality morpheme 'ix' (with loss of the vowel /i/), "all two" [cf. 'caxtol-ix-tin' "all fifteen"] >omexti. = two, both. *** Same as above, but 'n' dropping >om-. omilhuitl. = two days, ompoalilhuitl. = forty days. *** The /e/ drops frequently -- the conditions are hard to define. >on-. onxihuitl. = two years, ontzontli.= eight hundred *** /e/ drops; before a non-labial consonant, assimilation takes over >oon-. oontetl. = two. *** Reduplication in numbers usually means at a time. >op- oppa. = two times, twice. *** The doubling of the 'p' is somehow (but not regularly) caused by the nasal consonant of 'ome'. >o- opa. = twice, two times. *** Two possibilities: 1) the /m/ drops before the /p/; 2) the /p/ doubles (as above) and the double 'pp' is not written. (I think #2 is more likely) >ooc- ooccan. = in two places. *** The same effect that doubled the 'p' above is doing the same thing to 'c'. > >3. >ye- yeilhuitl. = three days. *** "Three" is really /eyi/ and the /-i/ is deleted in a process parallel to the one that drops /-e/ in 'ome'. (The further /y/ dropping is not clear.) Word-initial /e/ "excresces" (hablando con su perdon) 'y' sometimes in so-called "classical" -- and in some modern dialects, it either happens generally or not at all (each dialect in its own direction). >yex- yexcan. = three places. *** The /-i/ is deleted and the /y/ becomes [x] in syllable-final position. >e- eilhuitl. = three days. epoalxihuitl. = sixty years. *** The same as ye- above, but without the "excrescent y-". >eintin. = three. *** /y/ adjacent to /i/ (maybe encouraged by /e/ [a front vowel like /e/ is freely dropped (i.e., is not in contrast with its own absence). The same '-n' that is found in 'mochi-n' and 'tehhua-n'. >ei. = three. >eixtin. = three. >eei. = three. >eex-. eexcan. = in three places. >ex-. expa. = three times; thrice. > >4 >nahui. = four. >nahuin. = four. These are similar to the ones above >nahuinti. = four. >nahuintin. = four. >nahuixti. = four. >nahuixtin. = four. >nauh-. nauhtzontli. = sixteen hundred. nahuacalli. = four boats *** The /i/ of 'nahui' is truncated in the same way as the /e/ of 'ome' and the /i/ of 'eyi'. The resulting syllable-final /w/ ('hu') is respelled as 'uh', but the stem is *basically* unchanged <>. >nah-. nahmapilli. = four fingers (e.g., of a drink). *** Not sure. >nap-. nappa. = four times, nappoalilhuitl. = eighty days *** Same doubling effect on /p/ that the consonant of 'cem' and 'ome' have. /w/ does the same consonant doubling in other morpheme combinations. >na-. napa. = four times. *** The /p/ doubles (as above) and the double 'pp' is not written. From carlossn at ui.boe.es Tue Nov 30 09:24:04 1999 From: carlossn at ui.boe.es (Carlos Santamarina) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:24:04 -0700 Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin Message-ID: Marcos Ochoa escribi=F3: > Hello All, > > I am wondering if there is a list of english and/or spanish words that = are > strictly nahuatl in origin. I think chili and chocolate are two of the = examples. > > Thank You, > -Marcos Romero-Ochoa Desde luego, en el espa=F1ol (ahora me refiero al de Espa=F1a) s=ED hay p= alabras de origen n=E1huatl, algunas de las cuales han adquirido un significado diferente a= l original. Algunos ejemplos: - Petate (de petlatl, estera de ca=F1a tejida): en Espa=F1a, bolsa de equ= ipaje del soldado, o, figuradamente, l=EDo de mantas para dormir en el suelo. Es sa= bido que los aztecas dorm=EDan sobre una estera en el suelo. - Petaca (de petlacalli, ba=FAl de petlatl): caja de cigarros, o botella = plana de bolsillo para licor. - Tiza (de tizatl, gis): caso muy curioso, ya que en Espa=F1a se utiliza = esta palabra n=E1huatl, mientras en M=E9xico y otros pa=EDses hispanoamericanos se usa= =93gis=94, de origen latino. - Tocayo: respecto de una persona, cada uno de aquellos que tienen el mis= mo nombre. Aunque de incierta etimolog=EDa (pudiera ser de origen latino), parece si= gnificar =93nuestro nombre=94: to-ca(itl)-yo. Y por supuesto, tomate, chocolate, chile, chile, etc. Ni que decir tiene = que en el espa=F1ol de M=E9xico hay numeros=EDsimos nahuatlismos. Hasta pronto: Carlos. *Englis version: Of course, in the Spanish (now I talk about Spain) yes, there are words f= rom n=E1huatl, some of which have acquired a different meaning from the origi= nal one. Some examples: - Petate (of petlatl, mat of woven cane): in Spain, stock market of lugg= age of the soldier, or, figuratively, mess of blankets to sleep in the ground. It i= s known that the Aztecs slept over a mat in the ground - Petaca (of petlacalli, trunk of petlatl): box of cigarettes, or flat b= ottle of pocket for licor. - Tiza (of tizatl, chalk): case very peculiar, since in Spain this word = is used n=E1huatl (mainly in the schools, of course) while in Hispano-America, Me= xico and other countries " gis ", from Latin origin, is used. - Tocayo: respect to a person, each one of which has the same name. Alt= hough of uncertain etimology (it could be from Latin origin), it seems to mean " o= ur name ": to-ca(itl)-yo. And of course, tomate, chocolate, chile, chicle, etc. It=92s not necessa= ry to say that there are a lot of words from nahuatl in the Spanish of Mexico. Read you soon: Carlos Santamarina. From leonelhermida at netc.pt Tue Nov 30 09:39:29 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:39:29 -0700 Subject: numeral variants Message-ID: Joe, many thanks for the magistral 'lesson' on the numerals. No questions asked! I'm sure you would be as brilliant as a 'Number Theorist'. :-) Best regards, Leonel From marisol at tiscalinet.it Tue Nov 30 11:58:55 1999 From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 04:58:55 -0700 Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BF3B2D.9F4F3A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hola Marcos: El numero de palabras de origen Nahuatl que usamos en Mexico es infinito! Una probadita puedes darla adquiriendo el "Diccionario de Aztequismos" (en realidad "nahuatlismos"!!!!) de Luis Cabrera, Ediciones Oasis, Mexico. La version que yo tengo es de 1980. Un cordial saludo, Susana Moraleda (una mexicana en Roma) -----Original Message----- From: Mel Sanchez To: Multiple recipients of list Date: marted� 30 novembre 1999 4.45 Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin >Marcos Ochoa wrote: >> >> Hello All, >> >> I am wondering if there is a list of english and/or spanish words that are >> strictly nahuatl in origin. I think chili and chocolate are two of the examples. >> >> Thank You, >> -Marcos Romero-Ochoa > >A few others: > >tecolote for owl just found out it comes from xolotl twin of >quetzalcoatl the eveing star, hence the evening bird > >guajolote turkey > >cuate twin from quetzalcoatl > >esquinkle small one > >for English according to Am Heritage Dictionary > >shack from xacalli > >and don't forget tamale and tomato. > >Take care, Mel > > ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BF3B2D.9F4F3A80 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Susana Moraleda.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Moraleda;Susana FN:Susana Moraleda EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it REV:19991130T112251Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BF3B2D.9F4F3A80-- From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Nov 30 15:27:01 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:27:01 -0700 Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin Message-ID: Joe's list is a very good one. One Spanish word missing is tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone) John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From dfrye at umich.edu Tue Nov 30 16:15:53 1999 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:15:53 -0700 Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin Message-ID: Thanks for Joe Campbell's great list; I just wanted to note that most of the words he cites are *Mexican* Spanish. The number of "aztequismos" in the regional Spanishes outside of Mexico are somewhat smaller. (Note, for instance, that Mexico is the only country, to my knowledge, where "tomate" has the original meaning of "tomatl," i.e. the "tomatillo" or "tomate de bolsa." Red tomatoes are "jitomates.") There are many other commonly used words in Mexico that come from Nahuatl Examples that spring to mind: jicote = bumblebee, ejote = string bean, quiote = stalk of the maguey or century plant, nixtamal = "masa," corn soaked in water and lye for making tortillas; tepache = racoon; tilma = cape; tianguis = market; tejamanil = wooden roof tile (despite the apparent similarity to Sp. "teja" I remember seeing a Nahuatl etymology); etc. etc. Note that most of the common words refer to (indigenous) plants, animals, and foods. The only verb I know of is pepenar = to gather/glean/snatch. The English words from Nahuatl are by and large a subset of the Spanish words. Permit me to steal and modify Joe's list: Spanish Word Nahuatl Word English Word aguacate ahuacatl avocado cacao cacahuatl cacao, cocoa chicle tzictli chicle chile chilli chili, chilli, chile chocolate xoco-l-atl chocolate (sour-ed-water) coyote coyotl coyote jacal xacalli shack? (proposed etym.) (I assume this is a compound) mejicano mexicah Mexican; Chicano (from older Sp.*mexicano, with "x" = "sh") mezcal mexcalli mescal (=liquor; the drug (acc. to OED) drugs mescal and mescaline (I think this just were named meant "baked quiote") in honor of their intoxicating qualities) mezquite mizquitl mezquite (tree) mole molli mole (sauce) nopal nopalli nopal (cactus) (?) ocelotl ocelot peyote peyotl peyote quetzal quetzalli quetzal tamal tamalli tamale tomate tomatl tomato tule tollin tule (a kind of bulrush) guacamole ahuacatl-molli guacamole (avocado-sauce) Other possible words, though their etymologies are less direct, include pocho, pachuco, and pot (as slang for marijuana; according to the OED, from "Mexican Sp. *potiguaya* marijuana leaves." I've never heard "potiguaya" but it sounds like it might be from Nahuatl.) From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Nov 2 07:51:47 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 00:51:47 -0700 Subject: 'Totatzine' Message-ID: Fran has already covered the ground on "timoetztica" and I thought I'd add a bit on a related sliver of the grammar -- certainly not a grammatical generality, but a feature that shows through the clouds and teases us. That "tz" which indicates 'causative' to make up the honorific with the preceding "mo" also shows up again in the pair: huaqui it dries up nichuatza I dry it (I cause it to dry up) || (in case someone is bothered by the spelling, remember that this can't involve /ch/, since a "u" doesn't occur independently in Nahuatl; it is part of "qu" or "hu", so since the "u" is part of the representation of /w/, the "c" represents /k/. The causative normally shows up as a suffix (e.g., -ltia, -tia, -itia, -lia, -a, -huia, change of -ihui or -ahui to -oa). But with a set of verbs commented on by Carochi which frequently involves a sound, there is an interesting formation for verbs which indicate a continued or repeated action. Not only do they reduplicate their initial syllable (up though the vowel), but they undergo a change at the end of the word. For intransitive verbs, the final syllable is deleted and replaced by -ca. For the transitive (causative) form of these verbs the replacive element is -tza, which is suspiciously similar to the "-tza" on "nichuatza" (above). I give a list below. I included forms which I failed to gloss in cases where there was difficulty in wording (or some other reason to pull the veil). Best regards, Joe calani it clanks cacalaca it clanks continually, it rattles quicacalatza he rattles it continually capani it cracks, it pops cacapaca it pops continually quicacapatza he makes it pop continually chalani it makes an out of tune sound chachalaca it continually makes an out of tune sound quichachalatza he makes it make an out of tune sound continually chapani it makes a splat sound chachapaca it repeatedly makes a splat sound quichachapatza he makes it splat repeatedly chipini it drips chichipica it drips repeatedly quichichipitza he makes it drip repeatedly comoni cocomoca quicocomotza cotoni it breaks, it parts cocotoca it breaks repeatedly quicocototza he causes it to break repeatedly cualani he gets angry cuacualaca it continually boils quicuacualatza he makes it boil continually cueponi it bursts cuecuepoca it bursts repeatedly quicuecuepotza he makes it burst repeatedly cuetlani it shakes cuecuetlaca it continually shakes quicuecuetlatza he makes it shake continually cueyoni it seethes cuecueyoca it seethes continually quicuecueyotza he makes it seethe continually hualani huahualaca quihuahualatza huiyoni it trembles huihuiyoca it trembles continually quihuihuiyotza he makes it tremble continally moloni it seethes momoloca it seethes continually quimomolotza he makes it seethe continually patlani it flies papatlaca it flutters (continually) quipapatlatza he makes it flutter (continually) payana it crumbles papayaca it crumbles continually quipapayatza he makes it crumble continually petlani it shines pepetlaca it shines continually, it glistens quipepetlatza he makes it glisten continually poloni he stutters popoloca he stutters continually quipopolotza* pozoni it boils popozoca it boils continually quipopozotza he makes it boil continually tecuini it beats tetecuica it beats continually quitetecuitza* he makes it beat continually tlapani it breaks tlatlapaca it breaks repeatedly quitlatlapatza he makes it break repeatedly tlatzini it bursts tlatlatzica* quitlatlatzitza* tzicuini it jumps tzitzicuica it jumps continually quitzitzicuitza* tzilini it rings, tinkles tzitzilica it jingles continually quitzitzilitza he makes it jingle continually tzotlani [glaze] tzotzotlaca quitzotzotlatza tzoyoni it fries tzotzoyoca it fries continually quitzotzoyotza he makes it fry continually xamani it crumbles, breaks xaxamaca it crumbles continually quixaxamatza he makes it crumble continually xitini it crumbles, desintegrates xixitica it crumbles continually quixixititza* zahuani* zazahuaca* zoloni it whooshes zozoloca it whooshes continually quizozolotza he makes it whoosh continually From apricotwhite at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 5 11:43:02 1999 From: apricotwhite at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Kerry=20Velazquez?=) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 04:43:02 -0700 Subject: Tata Message-ID: Can anyone tell me whether "tata", meaning "daddy", comes directly from the classical nahuatl "tahtli" (father), or from Spanish? I have always assumed that "tata" is a diminutive of "tahtli", but I have recently been told that "tata" has the same meaning in Spain. Is this just a co-incidence or is there a reason? Kerry Velazquez ===== Kerry Velazquez Hernandez apricotwhite at yahoo.co.uk 11G Goldsbrough Court Richardson Road Newcastle-upon-Tyne NE2 4BG United Kingdom ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Nov 5 11:58:00 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 04:58:00 -0700 Subject: Tata Message-ID: My guess would be that it is simply English 'dada' with devoiced consonants. :) On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, [iso-8859-1] Kerry Velazquez wrote: > Can anyone tell me whether "tata", meaning "daddy", > comes directly from the classical nahuatl "tahtli" > (father), or from Spanish? > I have always assumed that "tata" is a diminutive of > "tahtli", but I have recently been told that "tata" > has the same meaning in Spain. Is this just a > co-incidence or is there a reason? > > Kerry Velazquez > > > > > ===== > Kerry Velazquez Hernandez > apricotwhite at yahoo.co.uk > 11G Goldsbrough Court > Richardson Road > Newcastle-upon-Tyne > NE2 4BG > United Kingdom > ____________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk > or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie > Michael McCafferty C.E.L.T. 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going from the me that others don't know to the other me that I don't know. -Juan Ramon Jimenez ******************************************************************************* From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Nov 5 14:44:24 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 07:44:24 -0700 Subject: Tata Message-ID: There is a famous publication by Roman Jakobson on the emergence of language that makes the point that dada, papa, mama, baba and the like are universal children's words for parents and grandparents because the vowel [a] and the stops, with and without voicing, nasalization, and rounding, are the first articulations that babies get reliable control of cross-linguistically. ---------- >From: Michael Mccafferty >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Tata >Date: Fri, Nov 5, 1999, 6:59 AM > > My guess would be that it is simply English 'dada' with devoiced > consonants. > > :) > > On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, [iso-8859-1] Kerry Velazquez wrote: > >> Can anyone tell me whether "tata", meaning "daddy", >> comes directly from the classical nahuatl "tahtli" >> (father), or from Spanish? >> I have always assumed that "tata" is a diminutive of >> "tahtli", but I have recently been told that "tata" >> has the same meaning in Spain. Is this just a >> co-incidence or is there a reason? >> >> Kerry Velazquez >> >> >> >> >> ===== >> Kerry Velazquez Hernandez >> apricotwhite at yahoo.co.uk >> 11G Goldsbrough Court >> Richardson Road >> Newcastle-upon-Tyne >> NE2 4BG >> United Kingdom >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk >> or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie >> > > > Michael McCafferty > C.E.L.T. > 307 Memorial Hall > Indiana University > Bloomington, Indiana > 47405 > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > **************************************************************************** *** > "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going > from the me that others don't know > to the other me that I don't know. > > -Juan Ramon Jimenez > > **************************************************************************** *** > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Nov 5 16:52:15 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 09:52:15 -0700 Subject: Tata Message-ID: Sure, Fran. But more to the point: The point I was making is that an English speaking child would go for an imitation of the alveolar consonant of his parents' "Daddy" with reference to the initial question posed this morning. Naturally, if the parents called the father "Papa," the child would probably tend to choose a bilabial. It would be interesting to see if a child in an environment where "Daddy" is used came up with [papa]. On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Frances Karttunen wrote: > There is a famous publication by Roman Jakobson on the emergence of language > that makes the point that dada, papa, mama, baba and the like are universal > children's words for parents and grandparents because the vowel [a] and the > stops, with and without voicing, nasalization, and rounding, are the first > articulations that babies get reliable control of cross-linguistically. > > ---------- > >From: Michael Mccafferty > >To: Multiple recipients of list > >Subject: Re: Tata > >Date: Fri, Nov 5, 1999, 6:59 AM > > > > > My guess would be that it is simply English 'dada' with devoiced > > consonants. > > > > :) > > > > On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, [iso-8859-1] Kerry Velazquez wrote: > > > >> Can anyone tell me whether "tata", meaning "daddy", > >> comes directly from the classical nahuatl "tahtli" > >> (father), or from Spanish? > >> I have always assumed that "tata" is a diminutive of > >> "tahtli", but I have recently been told that "tata" > >> has the same meaning in Spain. Is this just a > >> co-incidence or is there a reason? > >> > >> Kerry Velazquez > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ===== > >> Kerry Velazquez Hernandez > >> apricotwhite at yahoo.co.uk > >> 11G Goldsbrough Court > >> Richardson Road > >> Newcastle-upon-Tyne > >> NE2 4BG > >> United Kingdom > >> ____________________________________________________________ > >> Do You Yahoo!? > >> Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk > >> or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie > >> > > > > > > Michael McCafferty > > C.E.L.T. > > 307 Memorial Hall > > Indiana University > > Bloomington, Indiana > > 47405 > > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > > > > **************************************************************************** > *** > > "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going > > from the me that others don't know > > to the other me that I don't know. > > > > -Juan Ramon Jimenez > > > > > **************************************************************************** > *** > > > > > Michael McCafferty C.E.L.T. 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going from the me that others don't know to the other me that I don't know. -Juan Ramon Jimenez ******************************************************************************* From cberry at cinenet.net Fri Nov 5 18:07:11 1999 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:07:11 -0700 Subject: Tata Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Sure, Fran. But more to the point: The point I was making is that an > English speaking child would go for an imitation of the alveolar consonant > of his parents' "Daddy" with reference to the initial question posed this > morning. Naturally, if the parents called the father "Papa," the child > would probably tend to choose a bilabial. It would be interesting to see > if a child in an environment where "Daddy" is used came up with [papa]. Preverbal children come up with 'baba', 'dada', 'mama', 'tata', 'gaga', 'nana', 'papa', and many others. Often the consonant is unclear. The key is that when they happen to get close to the local culture's kinship terms, they get rewarded with lots of praise and attention. This feedback loop quickly trains them which sounds to use to trigger these reactions, and indeed typically leads to one of the first assignments of meaning to a sound (connecting 'mama' with mother and so forth). -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling From dfrye at umich.edu Fri Nov 5 19:38:07 1999 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 12:38:07 -0700 Subject: Tata Message-ID: The responses from Frances Karttunen et al. should already indicated that, no matter what, this isn't entirely a coincidence. But the first question is whether 'tata' really means 'father/daddy' in Spain. I certainly never heard it used in the 2 years I lived there. The Diccionario de Regionalismos de la Lengua Espanola, one of the cooler web sites out there (http://www.hispanicus.com/drle/) has "tata. America, Murcia. Padre, papa," indicating that it is only used in this sense in the province of Murcia (as well as "America," which is of course inaccurate -- it isn't used in Cuba or Argentina, for example). For the rest of Spain, it shows 'tata' as meaning 'Nin~era. Empleada del hogar.' In short, I would stick with your original assumption. The places where 'tata' means father seem to line up with those where the indigenous term (not only Nahuatl) for father is something like 'tata.' Murcia might be a case of an 'indiano' usage being brought back home... David Frye On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, [iso-8859-1] Kerry Velazquez wrote: > Can anyone tell me whether "tata", meaning "daddy", comes directly > from the classical nahuatl "tahtli" (father), or from Spanish? I have > always assumed that "tata" is a diminutive of "tahtli", but I have > recently been told that "tata" has the same meaning in Spain. Is this > just a co-incidence or is there a reason? From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 6 10:06:29 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 03:06:29 -0700 Subject: Tata Message-ID: > The key > is that when they happen to get close to the local culture's kinship > terms, they get rewarded with lots of praise and attention. This feedback > loop quickly trains them which sounds to use to trigger these reactions, > and indeed typically leads to one of the first assignments of meaning to a > sound (connecting 'mama' with mother and so forth). From leonelhermida at netc.pt Sun Nov 7 13:15:03 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 06:15:03 -0700 Subject: Aztec star-gazing Message-ID: Hi, I just came across two names the Aztecs used associated with 'celestial objects', namely "Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli" for the god associated with planet Venus and "Piltzintecuhtli" for the one associated with planet Mercury (sic, in a source on the Web) Now, if they were able to spot the elusive planet Mercury they must have known quite well the other planets (which are much more conspicuous, I mean Mars, Jupiter and even Saturn) Are their names known, and if so what were they? I'm sure star-gazers would welcome the Nahuatl names of the 7 'wanderers' (Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn)... Thank you. Leonel From jcarlson at deans.umd.edu Sun Nov 7 18:49:07 1999 From: jcarlson at deans.umd.edu (John B. Carlson) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 11:49:07 -0700 Subject: Aztec star-gazing Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Nov 1999, Leonel Hermida wrote: > Hi, > > I just came across two names the Aztecs used associated with 'celestial > objects', namely "Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli" for the god associated with planet > Venus and "Piltzintecuhtli" for the one associated with planet Mercury (sic, > in a source on the Web) > Now, if they were able to spot the elusive planet Mercury they must have > known quite well the other planets (which are much more conspicuous, > I mean Mars, Jupiter and even Saturn) > Are their names known, and if so what were they? I'm sure star-gazers > would welcome the Nahuatl names of the 7 'wanderers' (Sun, Moon, > Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn)... > > Thank you. > > Leonel My reaction to your question is two-fold: First, you mention "a source on the web." What source? Why don't you tell us where you get your information? Secondly, there is a real wealth of information about Venus, but nothing I know of about Mercury. Can you give us the sources for the suggestion that Mercury is associated with Piltzintecuhtli? I don't know of any, but if they exist, it might be interesting. Without ethnohistorical or archaeological sources, or evidence from the pre-contact or post-contact codices, any speculation about the planets is just that... a good example of "Rorschach" scholarship. If you need further references on Venus, I could provide them. Sincerely, John Carlson From leonelhermida at netc.pt Mon Nov 8 12:17:30 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 05:17:30 -0700 Subject: Aztec star-gazing Message-ID: Hi, First. My apologies for having not provided my source about relating the name Piltzintecuhtli with the planet Mercury. I didn't know it is a controverted statement... However, as I didn't intend to make any point and even less enter a scholarly controversy about what I surmised be 'ordinary public knowledge', I didn't pursue any further my investigation about the source: I only wrote down the information in my note-book with the word "sic" between brackets, only to remember myself I had already seen the selfsame name attributed elsewhere to the Sun god, by another author. (If I'm required to supply this one too I think I shall scream...) So, be sure I'll provide publicly (here) the site where I got that important "information", as soon as I find it out again. Second. My question was just about the very names of the planets (if known), not about which authorities support that names themselves. Mr. Carlson would perhaps have given a better help to the 'List' as a whole if he supplied those names (at least the ones there is agreement about) (remarking passing by that Piltzintecuhtli = Mercury is far from certain) instead of getting questioning what my source was. By Jove! Have I ever suggested I was expending an 'original and important' opinion? I can only assure everybody I have not 'forged' myself the disputed equation as I will show when I find out the source of so "disturbing" an assumption. As it is, I can only quote an ancient Greek saying about such a 'void discussion about nothing': "peri onou skias", that is to say, 'about the shadow of an ass'... Best regards. Leonel P.S. I just found it out. Please click the following link: http://northcoast.com/~spdtom/a-god3.html and look it up in alphabetic order s.v. 'Piltzintecuhtli'. Thank you for your attention. Leonel From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 8 17:32:21 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:32:21 -0700 Subject: Aztec star-gazing Message-ID: > My question was just about the very names of the planets (if known), not > about which authorities support that names themselve Greetings: I would argue that the difference proposed above - names of the planets vs. authorities which give those names - is a false one and a dangerous one. Al= l knowledge is social and it makes a very big difference as to who says what when. And it makes even more difference when 1/ we are discussing people wh= o are dead and could only leave records through Franciscan documents or other colonial sources, (Sahag=FAn sez Tezcatlipoca =3D Jupiter, etc) 2/ when the people are living and known to us through ethnographers some of whom speak Nahuatl, some don't, all of whom have a particular perspective, and 3/ when Mexican nationalism has done it's own fair share of invention re. indigenou= s culture, creating a "Classical" past not to mention "Classical" Nahuatl. (This latter is particularly odd as Nahuatl today is less distant from the Nahuatl of the early colonial period than English is from Elizabethan times= . Shakespeare is not "Classical" English.) The point is that sources matter. LOTS. It is not the point to say that source-x is biased. (All sources and all interpreters are biased.) The point is "how to read through that bias/perspective in order to decide what is reliable and what is not." Even the names of planets as gods is a tricky issue if one bothers to ask what gods are, i.e. what they do in a particular culture in certain times, places. Early colonial sources (Cortes' letters & Bernal D=EDaz, Mendieta) refer to the Nahuas calling them "gods." Well, this has done a lot to makin= g Nahuas into a benighted lot, given such an error. However, if one bothers t= o question our own assumption of what a "god" is, or, better, what a "teotl/teule" is, then we find that Nahuas themselves called their own rulers "teotl" and had numerous practices which enforced this identificatio= n (not looking directly at the ruler as one does not look directly at the sun= , etc.) This changes matters considerably. It "humanizes gods" while at the same time "deifying rulers." Because many people think about other cultures in translation, often things are translated too soon, i.e. teotl into "god" or "god" into "planet" leaving a cognitive dissonance between cultures and thereby making the "other" exotic. If the ruler =3D the sun (cf. abundant evidence in "refranes" in Book 3 of Florentine Codex - "New Sun =3D New ruler= " etc.) then maybe even such things as "feeding the sun" - the ostensible reason behind human sacrifice - takes on new meaning, i.e. makes more sense= , if we were to think of it as "feeding the ruler" i.e. supplying the ruler with goods/commodities. Re. "star-gazing" one must ask what it is and why Mesoamericans did it and do it when they do. The reasons are not the same as those of us working, say, with Hubble. Nor are they the same as those of the 16th Spaniards who recorded these Nahua practices. Recall that neither Spaniards nor Nahua nor many researchers doubt their own cosmology. If I were to go into downtown Boulder and meet an alien, we'd talk about his/her/? arrival in terms of th= e speed of light and red shift because that is the way our culture does it. Similarly, 16th century (and later) Spaniards knew that the universe had thirteen layers from the four elements to the moon to planets, to empyrean, and so on. When asking Nahua about this they were not interested in Nahua cosmology but in fitting Nahua names into Spanish (true and unexamined) categories. If we want to think of the Hero Twins as Venus and the Sun or a= s the Sun and Moon, we're only perpetuating such misunderstandings unless we ask what heroes are, what twins are, what Venus is, what the sun is and wha= t these relations imply. We need context to make sense. Are there any good writings that have done this with the Greeks and Romans? as "Classical" Greece and Rome is likewise the invention of a later culture. Greek "mythology" was certainly not as "literary" when it was oral and still practiced. So, as Ralph Linton has it, "The last thing a fish sees is the water." and as Walt Kelly has it, "We have met the enemy and he is us." I think what Dr. Carlson is pointing out is that without examining the assumptions made by the sources we cannot understand much. Nothing simple. Everything complex, ambiguous and always engaging. Best, Richard Haly From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 8 17:36:24 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:36:24 -0700 Subject: FW: Tata Take Two Message-ID: > >> The key >> is that when they happen to get close to the local culture's kinship >> terms, they get rewarded with lots of praise and attention. This feedback >> loop quickly trains them which sounds to use to trigger these reactions, >> and indeed typically leads to one of the first assignments of meaning to a >> sound (connecting 'mama' with mother and so forth). > Sorry, the earlier version went off before I was finished with it. Elinor Ochs writes about language acquisition of her two year-old daughter. (reference not at hand, sorry). She tells how they would play with finger puppets and the puppet would say, "Hi." One day a sock falls from the drawer and lands across the bare toes of her daughter who points at it and sez "Hi." Now if Elinor Ochs' daughter were in a culture in which tubular-cloth-over-bodily-extremity meant "Hi" or in a culture (Purepucha for example) in which flat things - lakes and tortillas, take the same particle, or ears and hinges on doors, another, then her daughter would have "learned" something that day instead of "getting it wrong." It seems as though children constantly invent language (Vico would agree) and adults shape it into shared forms. I wonder what will happen when all the teenagers who say "like" followed by a sound and an action - "like she was all AHHHH" = "she was frightened" - have children.... Best, Richard Haly From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 8 17:50:57 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:50:57 -0700 Subject: Piltzinteuctli etc. website Message-ID: PILTZINTECUHTLI-"Youthful God" Also known as the representation of the planet Mercury. Known as a young god and his name means "Prince" who had golden hair like the sun. During pole climbing ceremonies conducted during festivals he was represented by young men dressed in his image. This deity may also have been worshiped in some fashion in conjunction with the sun. Legends state that PILTZINTECUHTLI was a second generation god and was mated with a goddess created from a lock of hair of Xochiquetzal, the "Flower Princess". This mating produced a son, Cinteotl (Cenotel?), the maize god. Piltzinteuctli was seen as a strong spring sun cohabiting with the mother earth to make corn. This is from the website Leonel mentions. Some sources are documented (Gilmor, Brundage, and Townsend) the first two, are not critical sources (Brundage sees through "Classical" eyes) and Townsend is as solid as an general text in that area can be (tho' my students complain, he doesn't cite his sources enough either....) Lots of spelling mistakes in the Nahuatl. I think the website in general is part of a series aimed at High School or Community College which for some reason implies that students needn't think critically until late college... Richard Haly From mikegaby at hotmail.com Tue Nov 9 03:25:25 1999 From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:25:25 -0700 Subject: REMOVE Message-ID: >From: "Reed Christopher L" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: REMOVE >Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:54:20 -0700 > >REMOVE THIS ADDRESS FROM YOUR MAILING LISTS!! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mikegaby at hotmail.com Tue Nov 9 05:45:57 1999 From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:45:57 -0700 Subject: Aztec star-gazing Message-ID: Leonel, You needn't feel offended by Mr. Carlson's response. The concern that many on the list share is the spreading of misinformation, usually unintentional. It is especially disturbing to those whose life work is the study of these cultures and languages. It is their life and they take it very seriously. As your studies of Aztec religion takes you deeper into the subject, you will quickly discover that sources of information becomes a central focus. These sources become a guide-post of sorts that allows the scholar/student to judge for themselves the validity of the information they are reading. Consider the people who firmly believe and expound that the origin of Mesoamerican culture can be found in Atlantis or worse, the Pleides systems (this of course being an extreme example of misinformation). Or simply ask the average person on the street about Mayan or Aztec culture and their responses will be filled with misinformation from obselete or questionable sources, they are not even aware of. The website you mentioned is quite impressive in it's body of information, however some of the spellings and translations seem to be questionable. The site also seems to be trying to relate Mesoamerican religion in Classical Hellenic terms...that can pose a lot of problems. This is the first time I have ever seen "Piltzintecuhtli" associated with Mercury, or any other heavenly body besides the sun for that matter. Clearly that Aztecs were quite familiar with the visible planets....I think the debate of relating these to named personages is still unsettled. Venus's importance is much older than the Aztecs civilization and was featured prominently in Mesoamerican religion...thus it's namesakes are widely known. As for the others, well consider your source first. Good Luck in your studies, Mike Gaby >From: Leonel Hermida >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Aztec star-gazing >Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 05:17:54 -0700 > >Hi, > >First. >My apologies for having not provided my source about relating the name >Piltzintecuhtli with the planet Mercury. I didn't know it is a controverted >statement... However, as I didn't intend to make any point and even less >enter a scholarly controversy about what I surmised be 'ordinary public >knowledge', I didn't pursue any further my investigation about the source: >I only wrote down the information in my note-book with the word "sic" >between brackets, only to remember myself I had already seen the >selfsame name attributed elsewhere to the Sun god, by another author. >(If I'm required to supply this one too I think I shall scream...) >So, be sure I'll provide publicly (here) the site where I got that >important >"information", as soon as I find it out again. >Second. >My question was just about the very names of the planets (if known), not >about which authorities support that names themselves. Mr. Carlson >would perhaps have given a better help to the 'List' as a whole if he >supplied those names (at least the ones there is agreement about) >(remarking passing by that Piltzintecuhtli = Mercury is far from certain) >instead of getting questioning what my source was. >By Jove! Have I ever suggested I was expending an 'original and >important' opinion? I can only assure everybody I have not 'forged' myself >the disputed equation as I will show when I find out the source of so >"disturbing" an assumption. >As it is, I can only quote an ancient Greek saying about such a 'void >discussion about nothing': "peri onou skias", that is to say, 'about the >shadow of an ass'... > >Best regards. >Leonel > >P.S. I just found it out. Please click the following link: > >http://northcoast.com/~spdtom/a-god3.html > >and look it up in alphabetic order s.v. 'Piltzintecuhtli'. >Thank you for your attention. >Leonel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From leonelhermida at netc.pt Tue Nov 9 12:51:40 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 05:51:40 -0700 Subject: Aztec star-gazing Message-ID: Hi, It looks somewhat amazing to see how a totaly 'innocent' query about just a few names (I maintain my interest was in names, leaving to others the difficult task to criticise the sources and indicating the degree of probability of each proposed identification) has turned out almost as a 'bomb' in some scholarly circles. I have received not less than 8 responses, 4 of which on-list (so to speak) and as many off-list, mainly suggesting I should keep asking 'difficult' questions for the benefit of many 'listeros'. I must confess I always read with the utmost attention Mr. R. Haly's contributions to the "List", though his posts are oftentimes (though not always) hard to read by my mail utility. This is because of the "MIME" formating characters which are put in probably without his knowledge what results in a lot of strange characters (= inside words accompanied by line-break, =FA, =3D and the like). I say I read with the utmost attention his posts even when I don't agree nor understand them. Let us examine this one: >Re. "star-gazing" one must ask what it is and why Mesoamericans >did it and do it when they do. The reasons are not the same as those >of us working, say, with Hubble. Nor are they the same as those of the >16th Spaniards who recorded these Nahua practices. Recall that >neither Spaniards nor Nahua nor many researchers doubt their own >cosmology For me star-gazing is what happens when my wife says to me by a clear evening: 'please look up in your "planetary" what planet is "that star" which is shining so brightly to-day the other side of the house'. My questions were not intended to be different from that: what were the names the Aztec priests (which were so sophisticated observers of Venus as everyone knows) gave to the planets: as simple as that... And there is something that suggests me the association between Mercury and Piltzintecuhtli (perhaps more correctly Piltzinteuctli) is perhaps more than a mischievous invention of some malicious imp, with the intention of difficulting the pacific life of so erudite and acute scholars. Thank you. Kind regards, Leonel From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 9 19:46:58 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:46:58 -0700 Subject: Aztec star-gazing Message-ID: > And there is something that suggests me the association between > Mercury and Piltzintecuhtli (perhaps more correctly Piltzinteuctli) is > perhaps more than a mischievous invention of some malicious imp, > with the intention of difficulting the pacific life of so erudite and acute > scholars. My guess (and it's only that) is that Piltzinteuctli was equated with Mercury as Piltzin + teuctli can be translated as "Child-Lord" or improperly as "Child of the Lord" and could therefore be applied to the little thing (Mercury) that hangs around the Lord (the sun). This is, again, speculation as I'm simply recalling other baseless argument styles that I've seen. Sorry about the odd characters. It surprised me too. Not normal. Using (very happily) a Mac G3 powerbook and Outlook Express 5.0. Nothing odd there. Quien sabe. By the way, per stargazing, latest estimates of number of galaxies in (our?/the?) universe is 50 billion. To try to make sense of this for my son I proposed (following Wm. Blake) One grain of sand = One galaxy and 100 grains = 1gram which eventually leads to 408 cubic yards of sand which is more than 40 dumptrucks full or, can it be almost a cubic quarter mile? Geez, and I thought Microsoft was big. Best, Richard From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Nov 11 22:09:29 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:09:29 -0700 Subject: Adjective formation Message-ID: Leonel, I haven't forgotten about our adjective formation discussion, but I got detoured on making a newer list of them. In the meantime, here is the older one. Best regards, Joe Key to "Adjective" Formation and Verb Sources -c (preterit ending attached to basic verb) Source Verb "Adjective" English ahhuiya (be fragrant) ahhuiyac fragrant ala:hua (become slick) ala:huac slippery cama:hua (become ripe) cama:huac ripe cana:hua (become thin) cana:huac thin catza:hua (become dirty) catza:huac dirty chama:hua (become chubby) chama:huac chubby, filled out chica:hua (be strong) chica:huac strong chipa:hua (purify) chipa:huac clean, pure coya:hua (extend, enlarge a hole) coya:huac wide (e.g. opening) cuala:ntli-cui (grab) cuala:ncuic angry [patientive noun from cuala:ni] cuaitl-pitza:hua (become thin) cuapitza:huac something pointed at the top cuechtli-e:hua (become sooty) cueche:huac sooted up huapa:hua (become stiff) huapa:huac stiff, firm hue:iya (grow) hue:yac long iucci (ripen, cook) iuccic ripened, cooked i:xtli-hue:iya (grow) i:xhue:yac long faced i:xtli-pitza:hua (become thin) i:xpitza:huac thin faced iztetl-dup-hue:iya (grow) iztehuehue:yac long nailed mo-tlazohtla (love) motlazohtlac expensive nacaztli-hue:iya (grow) nacazhue:yac long earred patla:hua (widen) patla:huac wide pitza:hua (become thin) pitza:huac thin po:ch-[po:ctli]-e:hua poche:huac smoked up poya:hua (darken) poya:huac dark, painted poza:hua (inflate) poza:huac swollen te:ntli-tila:hua (thicken) te:ntila:huac thick lipped or wide hemmed te:ntli-toma:hua (grow fat) te:ntoma:huac thick lipped tila:hua (thicken) tila:huac thick tlahto:lli-hue:iya (grow) tlahto:lhue:yac loquacious [patientive noun from tla-ihto:a] tlatla (burn) tlatlac burned tli:lli-e:hua (become) tli:le:huac blackened toma:hua (grow fat) toma:huac fat tzi:ntli-pitza:hua (become thin) tzi:mpitza:huac pointed at the bottom tzope:lia (sweeten) tzope:lic sweet xo:tla (burn, bloom) xo:tlac hot, bloomed yacatl-pitza:hua (become thin) yacapitza:huac pointed yacatl-toma:hua (grow fat) yacatoma:huac fat nosed yohua (get dark) yohuac nighttime yo:llo:tl-chica:hua (be strong) yo:llo:chica:huac courageous zotla:hua (faint) zotla:huac fainted, limp -qui (preterit ending attached to basic verb) a:tl-te:mi (fill up) a:te:nqui full of water cactli-dup-copi:na (remove) caccocopi:nqui barefoot cactli-toma (loosen) cactonqui barefoot calaqui (entered) calacqui one who has entered capotza:hui (turn black) capotza:uhqui blackened caxa:ni (loosen) caxa:nqui loosened, badly tied ce:hui (calm, cool) ce:uhqui calmed, fallen in honor chala:ni (pot to clank or crack) chala:nqui broken (vessel), out of tune (song) chapa:ni (make wet slapping sound) chapa:nqui soaked cocoya (be sick) cocoxqui sick coyo:ni (develop a hole) coyo:nqui perforated, hole cuala:ni (be angry) cuala:nqui angry cua:itl-mani (lie flat) cua:manqui wide at the top and narrow at the bottom cua:itl-xocotl-miqui (die) cua:xocomicqui drunk or insane cuepo:ni (burst, bloom) cuepo:nqui burst, bloomed cuitlatl-zotla:hua (faint) cuitlazotla:uhqui lazy e:lli-te:mi (fill up) e:lte:nqui full of food, surfeited hua:qui (dry) hua:cqui dry huetzi (fall) huetzqui fallen i:xtli-cocoya (be sick) ixcocoxqui sick in the eyes i:xtli-patza:hua (mash, deflate) ixpatza:uhqui blind in an eye i:xtli-petla:hua (uncover) ixpetla:uhqui of uncovered face i:xtli-pina:hua (feel shame) ixpina:uhqui bashful maitl-cocoya (be sick) macocoxqui lame of a hand mali:na (twist) mali:nqui twisted maitl-miqui (die) mamicqui lame of the hands maitl-poztequi (split, break) mapoztecqui lack a hand or hands mo-e:lli-pan-petla:hua (uncover) me:lpanpetla:uhqui bare-chested mo-e:hua (get up, raise) meuhqui out of bed miqui (die) micqui dead mo-dup-no:tza (chat) monono:tzqui converted, reprimanded mo-yo:llo:tl-e:hua (get up, raise) moyo:leuhqui excited or in love mo-yo:llo:tl-mela:hua (straighten) moyo:lmela:uhqui confessed paqui (be happy) pacqui happy pala:ni (rot) palanqui rotten peto:ni (dislocate) petonqui dislocated pina:hua (feel shame) pina:uhqui ashamed poli:hui (perish, disappear) poliuhqui lost pozo:ni (boil) pozonqui angry, irritated poztequi (split, break) poztecqui broken, cut te:ntli-coto:ni (snap, cut) te:ncotonqui nicked, or having a split lip te:mi (fill up) te:nqui full te:ntli-xiti:ni (collapse, break) te:nxitinqui having a frayed edge teotl-miqui (die) teomicqui sacrificed before the idols teotl-tlahto:lli-cuepa (turn) teotlahto:lcuepqui heretic tlahua:na (get drunk) tlahua:nqui drunk tlantli-copi:na (remove) tlancopi:nqui having no teeth or broken teeth tlantli-coto:ni (snap, cut) tlancotonqui having broken teeth or teeth missing tlapa:ni (break) tlapanqui broken tletl-miqui (die) tlemicqui sweltering (person) tzaya:ni (tear, shatter) tzayanqui torn, broken, shattered tzi:ntli-mani (lie flat) tzi:mmanqui wide at the bottom and pointed at the top tzi:ntli-miqui (die) tzi:mmicqui impotent tzi:ntli-poztequi (split, break) tzi:mpoztecqui having a broken back xeli:hui (split) xeliuhqui split xiti:ni (collapse, break) xitinqui fallen or knocked down dup-xiti:ni (collapse, break) xixitinqui fallen or knocked down xocotl-miqui (die) xocomicqui drunk xotl-poztequi (split, break) xopoztecqui having a broken foot xotl-poztequi (split, break) xotzayanqui having a split foot yacatl-poztequi (split, break) yacapoztecqui having a nose cut off yo:llo:tl-ce:hui (calm, cool) yo:lceuhqui calmed, placated yo:llo:tl-dup-cuepa (turn) yo:lcuecuepqui inconstant, changeable yo:llo:tl-dup-cuepa (turn) yo:llo:cuecuepqui inconstant, changeable yo:llo:tl-miqui (die) yo:llo:micqui dull of understanding yo:llo:tl-pozo:ni (boil) yo:llo:pozonqui angry, irritable -tic [-ti + -c] (preterit ending attached to denominative verb) Source Noun "Adjective" English a:calli (canoe) acaltic grooved a:tl (water) atic runny, watery a:to:lli (atole) atoltic soft camohtli (sweet potato) camohtic soft, tender chi:lli (chile pepper) chichiltic red cihua:tl (woman) cihuatic feminine co:ztli (yellow dye) coztic yellow cuaitl-metlatl-pilli cuametlapiltic having a large head etl (bean) etic heavy huitztli (thorn) huitztic sharp pointed i:xtli-tli:lli (soot) i:xtli:ltic dark faced neuctli (honey) neuctic sweet nextli (ash) nextic dark, ash-colored omitl (bone) ohomitic bony and thin pahtli (potion, medicine) pahtic cured piaztli (siphon, tube) piaztic long and thin pilli (child, noble) piltic noble quilitl (greens, herbs) quiltic green te:ntli-tzontli-tli:lli te:ntzontli:ltic black bearded tetl-pitztli (fruitpit) tepitztic hard tetl (stone) tetic hard tlalhuatl (tendon, nerve) tlalhuatic sinewy tli:lli (soot) tli:ltic black tzi:ntli-huitztli (thorn) tzi:nhuitztic pointed at the base xiquipilli (bag) xixiquipiltic swollen yacatl-huictli (hoe) yacahuictic having a long wide nose yacatl-huitztli (thorn) yacahuitztic having a long sharp nose (person) or having a sharp point (thing) yacatl-piaztli (siphon, tube) yacapiaztic having a long straight yahualli (round grass pad) yahualtic round -tic [-ti + -c] (preterit ending attached to denominative verb which is derived from a patientive noun derived from source verb: [source verb > pat. noun > denom. verb] + -c) Source Verb "Adjective" English ala:hua (become slick) alactic slippery caxa:ni (loosen) cacaxactic loose, sparcely woven cama:hua (become ripe) camactic tender, ripe cana:hua (become thin) canactic thin catza:hua (become dirty) catzactic dirty, dirty-colored chama:hua (become chubby) chamactic chubby, filled out chica:hua (be strong) chicactic strong, firm chipa:hua (purify) chichipactic clean, pretty chiya:hua (get s.t. greasy) chiyactic greasy dup-coto:ni (snap, cut) cocotoctic broken, torn apart coto:ni (snap, cut) cotoctic having a missing piece co:tztli-toma:hua (grow fat) cotztotomactic having heavy calves of the legs coyo:ni (develop a hole) coyoctic hole, or having a hole cuahuitl-tila:hua (thicken) cuauhtilactic dense (e.g. cane fence) cuecha:hua (get moist) cuechactic moist, damp cue:chtli-e:hua (become) cuichectic get sooty huapa:hua (gain strength, raise children) huapactic hard, firm i:xtli-cuepo:ni (burst, bloom) ixcuepoctic blind of an eye i:xtli-pitzi:ni (burst) ixpitzi:ctic blind of an eye ihzahuaca (rustle) izahuactic hoarseness mela:hua (straighten) melactic straight nextli-e:hua (become) nexectic dark, ash-colored peya:hua (overflow) peyactic flowed (e.g. water) pitza:hua (make thin) pitzactic slender and long pitza:hua-coyo:ni (develop hole) pitzcoyoctic narrow (e.g. hole) po:ch [po:ctli]-e:hua (become) pochectic smoked up pochi:na (unravel, card) pochictic teased, inflated poxa:hui (soften) poxactic soft, spongy tili:ni (tighten) tilictic bulged, warped tlacua:hua (harden) tlacuactic hard tlantli-copi:na (remove) tlancopictic having broken or missing teeth tlantli-coto:ni (snap, cut) tlancotoctic having broken or missing teeth tli:lli-e:hua (become) tli:le:ctic blackened dup-tzaya:ni (tear, shatter) tzatzayactic broken or cut into many pieces tzili:ni (ring, tinkle) tzilictic having a clear sound, like a bell xotl-dup-patla:hua (widen) xopapatlactic having wide or large feet xotl-dup-tila:hua (thicken) xotitilactic having wide or large feet yacatl-dup-coto:ni (snap, cut) yacacocotoctic having no nose zone:hua (swell, puff up) zonectic soft, spongy, light zotla:hua (faint) zotlactic weak, withered, or without courage From Genaro.Bugarin at Dartmouth.EDU Thu Nov 11 22:48:32 1999 From: Genaro.Bugarin at Dartmouth.EDU (Genaro Bugarin) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:48:32 -0700 Subject: Question Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone know anything about Caballero Aguila? It is suppose to be a Aztec warrier I think, what was the Aztec/Nahuatl name? Thank you in advance Genaro Dartmouth College From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Thu Nov 11 22:51:31 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:51:31 -0700 Subject: Adjective formation Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, R. Joe Campbell wrote: | Key to "Adjective" Formation and Verb Sources | | -c (preterit ending attached to basic verb) | | Source Verb "Adjective" English | | ahhuiya (be fragrant) ahhuiyac fragrant Thanks for the excellent list! I notice that you are using the conventional Spanish orthography. I'm curious, does the letter y in Nahuatl represent the English y sound or the Spanish y sound? These sounds can be distinguished with some practice. For instance, ahhuiya would really be awiya? What are the lengths of the vowels? Did Classical Nahuatl care about lengths of vowels when it came to poetry? If uppercase denotes long vowels, would the word be awiyA or awIya or Awiya? Does a trisyllabic word usually have only one syllable long, the other two short? From tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com Thu Nov 11 23:06:36 1999 From: tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:06:36 -0700 Subject: Adjective formation Message-ID: Read the old emails... I think we have covered a lot of this in the past... -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Montchalin [mailto:mmontcha at OregonVOS.net] Sent: Thursday, November 11, 1999 2:52 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Adjective formation On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, R. Joe Campbell wrote: | Key to "Adjective" Formation and Verb Sources | | -c (preterit ending attached to basic verb) | | Source Verb "Adjective" English | | ahhuiya (be fragrant) ahhuiyac fragrant Thanks for the excellent list! I notice that you are using the conventional Spanish orthography. I'm curious, does the letter y in Nahuatl represent the English y sound or the Spanish y sound? These sounds can be distinguished with some practice. For instance, ahhuiya would really be awiya? What are the lengths of the vowels? Did Classical Nahuatl care about lengths of vowels when it came to poetry? If uppercase denotes long vowels, would the word be awiyA or awIya or Awiya? Does a trisyllabic word usually have only one syllable long, the other two short? From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 12 00:31:51 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:31:51 -0700 Subject: Vowel length in lyrics Message-ID: > Did Classical Nahuatl care about lengths of vowels when it came to poetry? > If uppercase denotes long vowels, would the word be awiyA or awIya or > Awiya? Does a trisyllabic word usually have only one syllable long, the > other two short? To the best of my knowledge, Nahuatl lyrics did not concern themselves with length as a marker of a "foot" eventually creating a line. (Yet another reason to ditch the adj. "Classical") Instead, I argue that line length was determined by the number of stresses (primary and secondary) as in Anglo Saxon strong stress (without the alliteration). These corresponded with the syllabic drum notation in the Cantares and Romances manuscripts. The vocables ohuaya ahuiya etc. were used to fill out the line as other formulae were. I have a very old article with considerably more detail on this in the journal New Scholar 10 from around 1985 (though I wrote the article in 1981). re: trisyllabic words, yes. the stress is on the penultimate syllable (the next to last) in a four syllable word, primary stress (1) is on penultimate with secondary stress (2) on anteantepenult (the one before the one before the next to last) que(2)tzal- co(1)atl, vs. simple que-tzal(1) -li. So word stress shifts as roots are combined just like we do in English with pho(1)to-graph, pho-to(1)-graph-er, and pho-to-graph(1)-ic. Hope this helps. Richard Haly From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Nov 12 01:32:58 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:32:58 -0700 Subject: Adjective formation Message-ID: Thanks Matthew, My comments follow *** On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > | ahhuiya (be fragrant) ahhuiyac fragrant > > Thanks for the excellent list! > > I notice that you are using the conventional Spanish orthography. *** I use the conventional Spanish orthography mostly because my materials and focus of work are from the 16th century. The Franciscans contributed/imposed their way of writing Nahuatl in the way that most people coming into contact with a new language do. They wrote down the new words in their own orthography (having no other) in the way it sounded to them -- we all hear phonemically, not phonetically, anyway -- just as the French did in their contact with indigenous peoples in what is now called the United States. Since Spanish did not have phonemic vowel length or a glottal stop phoneme, their writing system was faulty in that regard, but people have used those "faulty" materials to great advantage since then. In the 17th century Horacio Carochi repaired the system -- and in the 20th, Richard Andrews and Fran Karttunen have done mountainous work to make it available to all of us. I have no emotional reaction against the "modern" / "anthropological" / "k" / "Spanish-rejecting" system that has gained some use in the 20th century. However, as I have said before, I think that it has a few powerful arguments against its use: 1. It splits the available literature into two writing systems. And with all the other problems that we have to deal with, we really don't need to hamper our facility in reading with a little clumsiness in reading the "other" system (whichever one the "other" one is). 2. Most of the people who get into Nahuatl are already familiar and competent with the Spanish spelling system. Why not take advantage of that? I'm > curious, does the letter y in Nahuatl represent the English y sound or the > Spanish y sound? *** Roughly, yes. These sounds can be distinguished with some practice. *** Again, yes. A lot of Spanish students in their first few years would probably argue with this, but the successful ones would not. Some Spanish professors with 40 years of experience would also argue with it, but that isn't evidence against your claim. The English y almost has little right to the name of "consonant" since the aperture is so open and the result so vowel-like, but the shorter Spanish y has a tighter aperture, frequently resulting in light (or non-light) friction (or even stoppage). > For instance, ahhuiya would really be awiya? What are the lengths of the > vowels? ***Not exactly. There is an implementation layer between the orthography of any language and its pronunciation. In a Carochi-affected orthography which fails to mark vowel length (such as the one that I frequently use), /w/ is spelled 'hu' or 'uh' depending on whether it is at the beginning of a syllable or at the end, respectively. And the glottal stop consonant is always written 'h', so 'hhu' is not [w], but [h] followed by [w]: [hw], something that is dying out among younger speakers of American speakers who don't distinguish "whale" and "wail". Further, although a given word might have the underlying (read "systematic" or even "mental") contrast between /ia/ and /iya/ (parallel to /oa/ and /ohua/) the presence or absence of the [y] or [w] was never contrastive -- nor is it in modern dialects. /iya/ was *normally* pronounced [ia], so "ahhuiya" was [ahwi'a] (' indicates stress). > > Did Classical Nahuatl care about lengths of vowels when it came to poetry? > If uppercase denotes long vowels, would the word be awiyA or awIya or > Awiya? Does a trisyllabic word usually have only one syllable long, the > other two short? > *** I see that Richard has ably answered this part . Best regards, Joe From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Nov 12 07:34:01 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 00:34:01 -0700 Subject: Patientive Nouns Message-ID: Leonel, Here is the other list I promised -- patientive nouns. Ask Mr. Gael what he thinks of them. Best regards, Joe Key to Patientive Nouns and Sources Source Verb Patientive Noun English a:na tlaa:ntli s.t. set apart, or a person who is led ahci, caqui tlaahcica:cactli s.t. well understood ca:hua tlaca:uhtli s.t. which is left or abandoned cactli, copi:na tlacaccopi:ntli person or horse that lost a shoe calli, mela:hua calmelactli large long room or corridor cana:hua tlacana:uhtli s.t. which is trimmed and made thin caxa:hua tlacaxa:uhtli s.t. weakened celia tlaceli:lli s.t. which is received chama:hua tlachahchama:uhtli s.o. flattered chaya:hua tlachaya:uhtli s.t. scattered chi:hua tlachi:hualli s.t. which is made or done chi:hua tlachi:uhtli s.t. which is made or done chica:hua tlachica:hualli s.t. which is strengthened chica:hua tlachica:uhtli s.t. fortified chicoihtoa tlachicoihto:lli slander chinoa tlachino:lli s.t. which is burned chipa:hua tlachipa:hualli s.t. which is cleansed, purified chipa:hua tlachipa:uhtli s.t. purified or clean co:hua tlaco:hualli s.t. bought, purchase co:hua tlaco:uhtli s.t. bought cochte:ca tlacochte:ctli s.o. who is put to sleep cochte:ca tlacohcochte:ctli a woman who is seduced cochtla:za tlacochtla:ztli s.o. who is put to sleep by a spell coto:na cotoctli piece (e.g., of bread) coto:na tlacoto:ntli s.t. cut off coto:na tlacoto:ntli s.t. which is trimmed or cut off coya:hua tlacoya:uhtli s.t. widened coyo:ni tlacoyoctli hole cuepa tlacuepalli s.t. which is turned upside down cuepa tlacueptli s.t. returned or turned e:catl, peya:hui e:capeyactli cool and gentle breeze huahuana tlahuahuantli s.t. which is marked, striped huapa:hua tlahuapa:uhtli s.t. which is supported or strengthened hui:ca tlahui:ctli s.t. carried to another place, fetched hui:tequi tlahui:tectli s.t. which is beaten huito:mi tlahuito:ntli s.t. torn down, destroyed i:xtli, patza:hua tlai:xpatza:uhtli person whose eye is put out i:xtli, poya:hua tlai:xpoya:uhtli s.o. dazzled or deceived ichpa:na ochpa:ntli wide road ichtequi ichtectli s.t. stolen ihcuiloa tlahcuilo:lli s.t. written ihya:na tlaihya:ntli s.t. hidden ilna:miqui tlalna:mictli s.t. which is remembered iltequi tlaltectli sip, s.t. which is sipped ma:itl, capani ma:capactli snap of the fingers ma:no:tza tlama:no:tztli s.o. who is beckoned ma:tope:hua tlama:tope:uhtli s.t. which is pushed with one's hand ma:ya:hua tlama:ya:uhtli s.t. which is thrown mahce:hua tlamahce:uhtli spoils, or s.t. which is deserved mali:na tlamali:ntli s.t. twisted mela:hua tlamela:uhtli s.t. explained or straightened out moya:hua tlamohmoya:uhtli s.t. scattered or put to flight na:miqui na:mictli married person, spouse na:moya tlana:moxtli s.t. stolen  Key to Patientive Nouns and Sources [p. 2] Source Verb Patientive Noun English namaca tlanamactli s.t. sold pa:ca tlapa:ctli laundry, s.t. washed pa:ca tlapa:ctli s.t. washed pa:huaci tlapa:huaxtli s.t. which is cooked pahmaca tlapahmactli s.t. purged with medicine patla:hua tlapatla:uhtli s.t. widened tetl, patla:hua tepatlactli wide flat stone pehpena tlapehpentli s.t. which is chosen peya:hua tlapehpeya:uhtli measure which is full of liquid pi:qui tlapi:ctli s.t. created or invented pitza:hua tlapitza:uhtli s.t. which trimmed, made thin pitza:hua pitzactli s.t. slender and long po:che:hua tlapo:che:uhtli s.t. smoked up po:hua tlapo:uhtli s.t. counted pochi:na tlapochi:ntli s.t. which is carded pohpo:hua tlapohpo:uhtli s.t. cleaned or scrubbed poztequi poztectli s.t. broken poztequi tlapoztectli s.t. which is broken quechtequi tlaquechtectli s.o. who is beheaded tataca tlatatactli s.t. dug up, an excavation or tomb te:ca tlate:ctli s.t. poured out on a flat surface te:mi tlatete:ntli ground which is paved te:nna:miqui tlate:na:mictli s.o. who is kissed on the mouth te:ntli, tomahua te:ntomactli s.o. with thick lips teci textli flour tepe:hua tlatepe:uhtli s.t. scattered tequi tlatectli s.t. which is cut tetl, poxa:hua tepoxactli light stone, pumice tia:miqui tia:mictli merchandise tla:lcopi:na tlatla:lcopi:ntli groundwork for a building tla:za tlatla:xtli s.t. thrown or dropped tlalli, huaqui tla:lhua:ctli island or dry land tlapa:na tetlapactli flagstone tlapa:na tlatlapa:ntli s.t. which is broken tlazoa tlazohtli s.t. precious tli:lli, chapa:ni tli:lchapactli ink blot to:ca tlato:ctli s.t. which is buried to:ca to:ctli young stalk of corn to:mi toto:ntli frayed cloth toma:hua tlatoma:uhtli grease or s.t. fattened toxoma tlatoxo:ntli s.t. which is scraped tzaya:na tlatzaya:ntli fragment, piece of s.t. tzotzo:na tlatzotzo:ntli drum, or a person beaten xi:ma tlaxi:ntli s.t. scraped or skinned xi:pe:hua tlaxi:pe:uhtli s.t. which is peeled xitini a:tepe:tena:nxitictli door of a rampart or city wall xole:hua tlaxole:uhtli s.t. scraped or hurt yo:coya tlayo:coxtli s.t. created or invented yo:coya tlayo:coyalli invention, s.t. which is created yohua tlayohualli darkness za:loa tlaza:lo:lli s.t. which is glued to s.t. zaca tlazazactli s.t. which is carried zo:hua tlazo:uhtli s.t. unfolded or spread out zotla:hua tlazotla:uhtli s.t. weakened patientive nouns exercise 01 1. calmelactli 1. large long room or corridor 2. tlaa:ntli 2. s.t. weakened 3. tlaahcica:cactli 3. s.t. which is received 4. tlaca:uhtli 4. s.t. which is trimmed and made thin 5. tlacaccopi:ntli 5. person or horse that lost a shoe 6. tlacana:uhtli 6. s.t. set apart, or a person who is led 7. tlacaxa:uhtli 7. s.t. well understood 8. tlaceli:lli 8. s.t. which is left or abandoned patientive nouns exercise 02 1. tlachahchama:uhtli 1. s.o. flattered 2. tlachaya:uhtli 2. s.t. scattered 3. tlachi:hualli 3. s.t. which is made or done 4. tlachi:uhtli 4. s.t. which is made or done 5. tlachica:hualli 5. s.t. which is strengthened 6. tlachica:uhtli 6. s.t. fortified 7. tlachicoihto:lli 7. s.t. which is burned 8. tlachino:lli 8. slander patientive nouns exercise 03 1. cotoctli 1. piece (e.g., of bread) 2. tlachipa:hualli 2. s.o. who is put to sleep by a spell 3. tlachipa:uhtli 3. a woman who is seduced 4. tlaco:hualli 4. s.o. who is put to sleep 5. tlaco:uhtli 5. s.t. bought 6. tlacochte:ctli 6. s.t. bought, purchase 7. tlacochtla:ztli 7. s.t. purified or clean 8. tlacohcochte:ctli 8. s.t. which is cleansed, purified patientive nouns exercise 04 1. e:capeyactli 1. cool and gentle breeze 2. tlacoto:ntli 2. hole 3. tlacoto:ntli 3. s.t. cut off 4. tlacoya:uhtli 4. s.t. returned or turned 5. tlacoyoctli 5. s.t. which is trimmed or cut off 6. tlacuepalli 6. s.t. which is turned upside down 7. tlacueptli 7. s.t. widened 8. tlahuahuantli 8. s.t. which is marked, striped patientive nouns exercise 05 1. ichtectli 1. person whose eye is put out 2. ochpa:ntli 2. s.o. dazzled or deceived 3. tlahuapa:uhtli 3. s.t. carried to another place, fetched 4. tlahui:ctli 4. s.t. torn down, destroyed 5. tlahui:tectli 5. s.t. which is beaten 6. tlahuito:ntli 6. s.t. which is supported or strengthened 7. tlai:xpatza:uhtli 7. s.t. stolen 8. tlai:xpoya:uhtli 8. wide road  patientive nouns exercise 06 1. ma:capactli 1. s.t. which is pushed with one's hand 2. tlahcuilo:lli 2. s.t. which is thrown 3. tlaihya:ntli 3. s.o. who is beckoned 4. tlalna:mictli 4. s.t. hidden 5. tlaltectli 5. s.t. which is remembered 6. tlama:no:tztli 6. s.t. written 7. tlama:tope:uhtli 7. sip, s.t. which is sipped 8. tlama:ya:uhtli 8. snap of the fingers patientive nouns exercise 07 1. na:mictli 1. married person, spouse 2. tlamahce:uhtli 2. s.t. explained or straightened out 3. tlamali:ntli 3. s.t. scattered or put to flight 4. tlamela:uhtli 4. s.t. stolen 5. tlamohmoya:uhtli 5. s.t. twisted 6. tlana:moxtli 6. spoils, or s.t. which is deserved 7. tlanamactli 7. laundry, s.t. washed 8. tlapa:ctli 8. s.t. sold patientive nouns exercise 08 1. tepatlactli 1. measure which is full of liquid 2. tlapa:ctli 2. s.t. created or invented 3. tlapa:huaxtli 3. s.t. which is chosen 4. tlapahmactli 4. s.t. purged with medicine 5. tlapatla:uhtli 5. s.t. washed 6. tlapehpentli 6. s.t. which is cooked 7. tlapehpeya:uhtli 7. s.t. widened 8. tlapi:ctli 8. wide flat stone patientive nouns exercise 09 1. pitzactli 1. s.t. counted 2. poztectli 2. s.t. slender and long 3. tlapitza:uhtli 3. s.t. smoked up 4. tlapo:che:uhtli 4. s.t. which is carded 5. tlapo:uhtli 5. s.t. which trimmed, made thin 6. tlapochi:ntli 6. s.t. broken 7. tlapohpo:uhtli 7. s.t. cleaned or scrubbed 8. tlapoztectli 8. s.t. which is broken patientive nouns exercise 10 1. te:ntomactli 1. flour 2. textli 2. s.o. who is kissed on the mouth 3. tlaquechtectli 3. s.o. with thick lips 4. tlatatactli 4. s.t. scattered 5. tlate:ctli 5. ground which is paved 6. tlate:na:mictli 6. s.o. who is beheaded 7. tlatepe:uhtli 7. s.t. dug up, an excavation or tomb 8. tlatete:ntli 8. s.t. poured out on a flat surface  patientive nouns exercise 11 1. tepoxactli 1. flagstone 2. tetlapactli 2. groundwork for a building 3. tia:mictli 3. island or dry land 4. tla:lhua:ctli 4. merchandise 5. tlatectli 5. s.t. thrown or dropped 6. tlatla:lcopi:ntli 6. s.t. which is broken 7. tlatla:xtli 7. light stone, pumice 8. tlatlapa:ntli 8. s.t. which is cut patientive nouns exercise 12 1. tlato:ctli 1. fragment, piece of s.t. 2. tlatoma:uhtli 2. frayed cloth 3. tlatoxo:ntli 3. grease or s.t. fattened 4. tlatzaya:ntli 4. s.t. which is buried 5. tlazohtli 5. s.t. which is scraped 6. tli:lchapactli 6. young stalk of corn 7. to:ctli 7. ink blot 8. toto:ntli 8. s.t. precious patientive nouns exercise 13 1. a:tepe:tena:nxitictli 1. drum, or a person beaten 2. tlatzotzo:ntli 2. s.t. scraped or skinned 3. tlaxi:ntli 3. darkness 4. tlaxi:pe:uhtli 4. door of a rampart or city wall 5. tlaxole:uhtli 5. invention, s.t. which is created 6. tlayo:coxtli 6. s.t. created or invented 7. tlayo:coyalli 7. s.t. scraped or hurt 8. tlayohualli 8. s.t. which is peeled patientive nouns exercise 14 1. tlaza:lo:lli 1. s.t. unfolded or spread out 2. tlazazactli 2. s.t. weakened 3. tlazo:uhtli 3. s.t. which is carried 4. tlazotla:uhtli 4. s.t. which is glued to s.t. From leonelhermida at netc.pt Sun Nov 14 12:07:01 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 05:07:01 -0700 Subject: some doubts Message-ID: 1. in oiuh mito cecni, zan ye no iuh mochihuaya (as it is told elsewhere, so likewise was it done) o-iuh mito = iuh o-mihtoh ? Is it common to have the preterit mark o- 'anticipated'? Or is there any reason I don't know? 2. in momazacoahuiani, intla elti, iciuhca mimiqui (he who partakes of the mazacoatl, if aggressive, quickly dies) is 'mazacoatl' some kind of venomous snake? is it the 'snake(?)' which is aggressive? is mimiqui an 'intensive' of miqui? 3. ihuan in aquin mimiqui, in quin opeuh coni (and he who has epilepsy, after it has just begun, drinks it) now 'mimiqui' has another meaning; what are the shades of meaning expressed by reduplication of the verb? would it be better *tlaconi? *quiconi? or is 'coni' an 'hopeless' intransitive? 4. Here I'd welcome a litteral translation (as far as possible): "Manca in atl oncan temia in cocoa ihuan in cueyame ihuan in yehuantin motenehua Mazateca oncan quintoloaya in cocoa zan yoyoltihuia". is 'manca' a pluperfect of 'mani' (put)? does 'oncan' mean 'there'? or has other meaning? is temia the causative of 'temi'= fill up ? Now, there must have been some tank (?) where had been put water (manca in atl) and that was filled up (temia) with snakes and frogs (in cocoa ihuan in cueyame); and then the people called Mazateca (in yehuantin motenehua Mazateca) 'lowered the snakes down' (quintoloaya) = made them disappear (?) or = swallowed them down (?) alive (??) ('yoli' is to live; is 'yoyoltihuia' = as they were alive?) Perhaps 2 weeks from now these doubts would be no more for I've ordered F. Karttunen & J. Campbell's monumental "Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar" but I cannot wait that much... Thanks for the help. Kind regards, Leonel From karttu at nantucket.net Sun Nov 14 21:48:57 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 14:48:57 -0700 Subject: some doubts Message-ID: You seem to be reading Sahagun's Primeros memoriales, the section about the water-tamale festival. One of the activities at the festival was that people designated/costumed as "Mazatecs" pulled live snakes and frogs from a basin of water and put them into their mouths. This is illustrated with a large painting in the PM. The University of Oklahoma Press has published a color facsimile of the complete manuscript and in a separate volume a translation of the text by Thelma Sullivan with annotations by a number of of other major scholars of the Aztec world. ---------- >From: Leonel Hermida >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: some doubts >Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999, 7:08 AM > > 1. in oiuh mito cecni, zan ye no iuh mochihuaya > (as it is told elsewhere, so likewise was it done) > > o-iuh mito = iuh o-mihtoh ? Is it common to have the preterit mark o- > 'anticipated'? Or is there any reason I don't know? The prefix o- is usually found with verbs in the preterite, but its function is to state that something happened (or will have happened) before some other event. It can be paired with the future tense if something in the future will happen only after something else has happened. So o- is more properly called the antecessive prefix and not thought of as just a redundant preterite marker. Once an o- has appeared in a clause or series of clauses, it doesn't have to be repeated on every verb. > > 2. in momazacoahuiani, intla elti, iciuhca mimiqui > (he who partakes of the mazacoatl, if aggressive, quickly dies) > > is 'mazacoatl' some kind of venomous snake? It usually refers to a boa constructor, i.e., a snake big enough to strangle a deer. > is it the 'snake(?)' which is aggressive? Elti is "careful" rather than "aggressive." I would think the text would read "intlaca" rather than "intla" and the sense would be that whoever handles a mazacoatl, if he isn't careful, will be in mortal danger. > is mimiqui an 'intensive' of miqui? Probably distributive: dying here a little and there a little. > > 3. ihuan in aquin mimiqui, in quin opeuh coni > (and he who has epilepsy, after it has just begun, drinks it) > > now 'mimiqui' has another meaning; what are the shades of > meaning expressed by reduplication of the verb? Same thing, I think. An epileptic loses consciousness following seizures. He dies a little here and dies a little there. > would it be better *tlaconi? *quiconi? or is 'coni' an 'hopeless' > intransitive? The "i" is the transitive verb meaning 'to drink something'. It's so minimal in form that it usually takes the directional on- prefix, apparently just to give it some weight. The c- preceeding on-i is the third person singular specific object prefix, which would have the form qui- if it preceded a verb or a verbal prefix beginning with a consonant. So literally coni is "(he)-it-drinks." If you want to say "He drinks (nonspecific, unspecified stuff)" you'd use tla-i. > > 4. Here I'd welcome a litteral translation (as far as possible): > > "Manca in atl oncan temia in cocoa ihuan in cueyame > ihuan in yehuantin motenehua Mazateca oncan quintoloaya > in cocoa zan yoyoltihuia". > > is 'manca' a pluperfect of 'mani' (put)? > does 'oncan' mean 'there'? or has other meaning? > is temia the causative of 'temi'= fill up ? > > Now, there must have been some tank (?) where had been > put water (manca in atl) and that was filled up (temia) with > snakes and frogs (in cocoa ihuan in cueyame); and then the > people called Mazateca (in yehuantin motenehua Mazateca) > 'lowered the snakes down' (quintoloaya) = made them > disappear (?) or = swallowed them down (?) alive (??) > ('yoli' is to live; is 'yoyoltihuia' = as they were alive?) You should see the illustration in PM. The "Mazatecah" are dancing around with tails of live snakes hanging out of their mouths. It sure beats swallowing goldfish! > From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Nov 15 05:58:35 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 22:58:35 -0700 Subject: some doubts Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Nov 1999, Leonel Hermida wrote: > 4. Here I'd welcome a litteral translation (as far as possible): >=20 > "Manca in atl oncan temia in cocoa ihuan in cueyame > ihuan in yehuantin motenehua Mazateca oncan quintoloaya > in cocoa zan yoyoltihuia". >=20 > is 'manca' a pluperfect of 'mani' (put)? > does 'oncan' mean 'there'? or has other meaning? > is temia the causative of 'temi'=3D fill up ? I think you're right on this -- a pluperfect of "mani", used as a simple past (which is the case with a few other Nahuatl verbs). A good way to think of the semantic content of "mani" is 'lie flat and spread out like a puddle of water'; the causative form "mana" is connected with laying out offerings and is generalized as 'put'. =20 Yes on "oncan" 'there'. "temia" is the imperfect (temi-ya) -- intransitive and with the unpronounced /y/. Best regards, Joe As they say in the commercials, "We'll be right back, but in the meantime, here are all the "manca" occurrences in the FC. [see next message] =20 manca** =20 1. ca miec tlamantli yaoyotl, nican *manca*, in nueva espa=A4a, in oc ipan tlateotoquiliztli: miecpa, mayanaloya, miecpa cocoliztli momanaya, ic micohuaya.. there were many wars in new spain when there still was idolatry; frequent famine, frequent pestilence were widespread; thus there was dying. (b.1 f.4 p.65).=20 =20 2. auh no yehuanti, in iyaohuan altepetl, tlatepotzca, inin ca *manca* teoatl, tlachinolli, quimonnotzaya ichtaca, hualichtacacalaquia, in icohuahuan moteuczoma: in nonohualca, cozcateca, cempoalteca, mecateca,. and also from cities which were his enemies, from beyond [the mountains] those with which there was war, moctezuma secretly, summoned, secretly admitted as his guests the nonoalca, the cozcateca, the cempoallans, the mecateca. (b.2 f.1 p.55).=20 =20 3. auh in oacito atenco, in innealtiaya tlamacazque: nauhcampa in *manca* in ayauhcalli,. and when they went reaching the water's edge, the offering priests' bathing place, the mist houses were at the cardinal points. (b.2 f.4 p.81).=20 =20 4. in oncan maltiaya in, tlanepantla *manca* in cuenmantli:. where they bathed, in the midst of things were poles. (b.2 f.4 p.82).=20 =20 5. ixpan *manca* in atl,. before it was [a pool of] water. (b.2 f.11 p.177).=20 =20 6. auh nehuan *manca* in ical catca tlaloc,. and with it was the house of tlaloc. (b.2 f.11 p.178).=20 =20 7. huel nehuan *manca*, huel netech zaliuhtimanca:. they were indeed together; they were indeed joined to each other. (b.2 f.11 p.178).=20 =20 8. auh in icpac cecentetl teocalli, in icpac *manca* calli:. and at the top of each was a temple; at the top was a house. (b.2 f.11 p.178).=20 =20 9. in aquin ye tlatoz, zan oncan *manca* in copalli xicaltica:. for whoever already was to speak, just there lay the incense in a gourd vessel. (b.2 f.12 p.195).=20 =20 10. ca nohuiyan cecentetl *manca*, in cihuateocalli, cecentlaxilacalpan oncan in omaxac,. for in every single place stood a temple of goddesses, in each neighborhood, there at crossroads. (b.4 f.4 p.41).=20 =20 11. in cuappetlapan, in ocelopetlapan oyeco, in oimmac *manca* in cuappiaztli, in cuauhxicalli, in ocuauhyacanque, in ocatlitique in tonatiuh in tlalteuctli:. they came exercising military command; in their hands rested the eagle tube, the eagle vessel; they led the eagle warriors; they provided drink for the sun, for tlaltecutli. (b.6 f.9 p.106).=20 =20 12. ihuan ipan mochiuh in huei mayanaliztli, nauhxihuitl in *manca*. and in his reign there came a great famine, which spread over the land for four years. (b.8 f.1 p.2).=20 =20 13. ipan mochiuh mayanaliztli oxihuitl in *manca* in aocmo quiahuia,. ln his reign there came a famine; for two years it spread over the land, during which it rained no more. (b.8 f.1 p.3).=20 =20 14. ihuan ipan mochiuh, onteme cuacuauhti cuauhcalco *manca* no manca in oncan tlatilolco. and in his time it happened that two eagles were in separate wooden cages there in tlatilulco. (b.8 f.1 p.8).=20 =20 15. ihuan ipan mochiuh, onteme cuacuauhti cuauhcalco manca no *manca* in oncan tlatilolco. and in his time it happened that two eagles were in separate wooden cages there in tlatilulco. (b.8 f.1 p.8).=20 =20 16. auh in itech tlachmatl, ontetl tlachtemalacatl *manca*,. and on the walls were two stone, ball court rings. (b.8 f.2 p.29).=20 =20 17. in quimocuitlahuiaya, in ipan tlatoaya in tianquiztli: ihuan ixquich tlanamactli, icecentlamantli tlanamactli, tiamictli, ipan *manca*,. they cared for, and attended to, the market place and all and each of the things sold---the merchandise which was there. (b.8 f.4 p.67).=20 =20 18. no ihuan oncatca, in tlayacanque in ipan *manca* acacuahuitl, acaiyetl, iyetlalli, huel ocotzoyo, ihuan xochiocotzotl,. and also there were proprietors among whom were spread out smoking tubes, pipes, and cigars, [some] quite resinous and aromatic; (b.8 f.4 p.69).=20 =20 19. ihuan teocuitlatl in ixcuatechimal ixcuac *manca*, ihuan inacazpipilol teocuitlatl,. and gold was his forehead disc, which rested on his brow; and his ear pendants were of gold. (b.9 f.6 p.79).=20 =20 20. ca chicomen *manca* in incalpolco, inic quinmanaya inixiptlahuan amanteca:. for seven were arranged in their calpulli when the inhabitants of amantlan arranged their images. (b.9 f.6 p.83).=20 =20 21. in yehuantin, i, amanteca in incalpol, in incalmecauh: zan monetechanaya onteixtin *manca* in incalpol pochteca:. the calpulli temple [and] the priestshouse of these inhabitants of amantlan extended by, were paired together with, the calpulli temple of the merchants. (b.9 f.7 p.88).=20 =20 22. no ihui in inteohuan nehuan *manca* quinnehuanmanaya, quimomemanaya in itoca iyacateuctli ihuan coyotl inahual.. likewise their gods were placed together; they put together, placed in twofold division, those named yacatecutli and coyotl inaual; (b.9 f.7 p.88).=20 =20 23. calli oncan *manca*.. houses are there. (b.11 f.24 p.252).=20 =20 24. auh in hueca *manca*, in tehuecapahuiti manca amo micque.. and those who remained at a distance, those who remained going at a distance, did not die. (b.12 f.5 p.78).=20 =20 25. auh in hueca manca, in tehuecapahuiti *manca* amo micque.. and those who remained at a distance, those who remained going at a distance, did not die. (b.12 f.5 p.78).=20 =20 26. ihcuac in *manca* inin totomoniliztli, huel epoalilhuitl, epoaltonal in quiz in cuetlan, in neemachoc, in yolihuac: ie chalcopa huatztia in totomoniliztli,. at this time this plague prevailed indeed sixty days --sixty day-signs --when it ended, when it diminished; when it was realized, when there was reviving, the plague was already going toward chalco. (b.12 f.6 p.82).=20 =20 27. huel cemilhuitl in *manca* yaoyotl.. Indeed all day did the battle take place. (b.12 f.8 p.116).=20 From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Nov 15 06:14:07 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 23:14:07 -0700 Subject: For mature audiences (was: some doubts) Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Nov 1999, Leonel Hermida wrote: > is 'mazacoatl' some kind of venomous snake? (Sorry about my funny double cross character for c cedilla) The only references to "mazacoatl" that I found in the Florentine Codex= =20 were the following: =20 mazacoatl** =20 1. no ihuan quiximati, in mitoa: *mazacoatl*,. and also they knew of the so-called ma=87acoatl. (b.10 f.10 p.171).=20 =20 momazacoahuiani** =20 2. in *momazacoahuiani*, intla elti, iciuhca mimiqui:. he who partaketh of the ma=87acoatl, if aggressive, quickly dieth. (b.6 f.10 p.126).=20 ******* Molina reports only one entry for "mazacoatl" in each of his three dictionaries: 'serpent, snake', but I thought that I recalled another use -- an herb or something else that could ingested. So I checked Martin de la Cruz, _Libellus de Medicinalibus Indorum Herbis_ (given extra notoriety by the apparent rip-off of Emily Walcott Emmartt's edition of it by a person whose identity my discretion prevents me from mentioning). --No result.=20 So I checked Maximino Martinez' _Catalogo de nombres vulgares y=20 cientificos de plantas mexicanas_ with negative results too. Negative also= on=20 Louise Schoenhals' _A Spanish-English Glossary of Mexican Flora and Fauna i= n=20 the plants section, but in the reptiles section, she gives it as 'boa=20 constrictor'. But I *still* thought I remembered an allusion to it as something like = an=20 herb which could be ingested, so I went back to the Florentine Codex, where= ,=20 in Book 6, I found the following: =20 Florentine Codex, Book 6, pp. 125-126 (end of this quote marked with ************) 1. inin quil nepapacyo, cequi temeyalti in quitecualtia in quitetolol= tia, in ahzo quiteitia cihuatlahueliloque in ahuianime, inic tlaelpaquiznequi: this, it is said, is pleasurable; one [kind] causeth one to discharge one's fluid when the whores, the harlots cause one to eat it, swallow it, or drink it to provoke lewdness. =20 2. inin ca teohuitili, auh nel micoani: ipampa ca tepatzcac, this endangereth one; and it is very deadly because one is dried up. =20 3. ca tlami in tezzo, in totlapallo, in tochiahuaca ca tayo tlami, tlami in oxiotl, in ocotzoyotl: for it useth up our blood, our color, our oils; it useth up our moisture; it useth up the turpentine, the resin. =20 4. iuh mitoa in ***momazacohuahuia*** quixyeyecoa, zan ixquich qui, so, it is said, he who partaketh of the ma=87acoatl is moderate, drinketh it moderately. =20 5. in ahzo nahui, macuilli cihuatl quinamiquiz, manozo matlactli: [if immoderate,] he will have carnal access to perhaps four, five, perhaps ten women. =20 6. auh inin cihua, amo zan ceceppa in intech aci: ahzo quen nanappa, mamacuilpa: and to these women he hath access not only once with each one, but four or five times with each one, more or less. =20 7. auh ayac huecahua and no one endureth. =20 8. in momazacoahuiani, intla elti, iciuhca mimiqui: he who partaketh of the ma=87acoatl, if aggressive, quickly dieth. =20 9. inic miqui huel huaaqui, huel malichahui, huel pilini, huel quequetotztzitzin mochihua, ixmalichpipil: as he dieth he becometh well dried up, veritably a little lock of hair, having long tufts of hair, locks of hair on the face. =20 10. ahzo quin piltontli, ac ace quexquichcahuitia, ahzo quin achi quihualmana in tonatiuh ac ace tle quitoquilia in toteucyo, perhaps he had been a mere child; perhaps he endureth for some time; perhaps he continueth in the service of our lord. =20 11. ye cuele za ixhuehuenton, za mamalichpil, quequetzopil, iztalecpil, yacacuitlapilopil, quechhuihuichpil: za pipilcac in inacayo, iciuhca onmiqui. eventually he is only little old eyes, only little locks of hair, tufts of hair, very white, nasal mucus hanging, trembling of neck; his flesh only hangeth in wrinkles; he quickly dieth. 12. huel ximopia nopiltze: guard thyself well, o my son. =20 13. at aca itla mitzmaca in cualoni, in ihuani: perhaps someone giveth thee something to be eaten, to be drunk. =20 14. intla itech tichicoyolloa, ma oc ye achto coni, ma oc ye achto concua, in tlein mitzmaca: if thou art suspicious of him, let him eat first, let him drink first that which he giveth thee. =20 15. tle ticmati pay attention. =20 16. xonmimattinemi in tlalticpac, ca oticcac in zan tlanepantlacayotl monequi. continue with caution on earth, for thou hast heard that moderation is necessary." =20 ************ Footnote #6 on page 125 contains the following: Ma=87acoatl: cf. Dibble and Anderson, _Florentine Codex_, Book XI, "Earthly Things," p. 80. And on page 80 is the following text: *** 1. mazacohuatl: ma=87acoatl =20 2. tepiton cuacuahue, catzactontli: amo tecuani, amo cueche: it is small, horned, blackish; not poisonous; without rattles. =20 3. yehuatl inic momeyaltia in aquique cenca cihuanequini, zan conichiqui in coni, zan imixtlama in ome ei cihuatl quinamiquiz they who are much given to women, in order to produce semen, just scrape and drink it [in water]; they just capture the eye of two [or] three women they are about to meet. =20 4. in aquin ommotototza in coni, zan cen tlacuauhtilia, ihuan zan cenquizticac in ixinach, ihuan yoyommiqui. he who drinks too much continually erects his virile member and constantly ejects his semen, and dies of lasciviousness. =20 *** 5. tlalmazacohuatl: tlalma=87acoatl =20 6. in tonayan nemi, it lives in the hot lands. =20 7. itoca: tzompilacahuaztli, it is called tzompilacauaztli. =20 8. tliltontli, tzotlactontli, alactontli it is small and black, small and glistening, slippery. =20 9. cacallo atecocollo. it has a shell, a sea-shell. =20 10. inic mitoa tlalmazacohuatl: ca zan nohuian, in milpan nemi: auh inic mazatl itech onca, ca cuacuauhtone. it is called tlalma=87acoatl because it dwells everywhere in the maize fields; and from deer, because it has small horns. =20 11. inin ihcuac neci in quiahui. this one appears when it rains. =20 12. inic nenemi, in oncan quiza iuhquin tizaayotl, iuhquinma tzauctli quinoquitiuh. as it goes about, when it emerges, there it goes exuding as it were a varnish liquid, like glue. =20 13. in aquin quiz i: intla miec qui, no yoyommiqui, ihuan ayotlami: he who drinks this [in an infusion], if he drinks much of it, also dies of lasciviousness, and his moisture ends. =20 14. ic miquiz, iccen ic cocolizquiz. so he will die; he will finally sicken because of it. =20 So it wasn't an herb. Thanks anyway, Emily and Maximino. Best regards, Joe From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Nov 15 14:35:47 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 07:35:47 -0700 Subject: For mature audiences (was: some doubts) Message-ID: I'm sorry for the messy appearance of my prior "send" on this message. I have consulted with the computer center repeatedly and extensively about the "=20", which my batch processing language puts out. However, even my *word processor* did the same thing last night, so I have managed to acquire a cleaned up copy, which should be easier to read. (I am now crossing my fingers, but I don't know if my e-mail will respond to that little-known piece of computer science.) On Sun, 14 Nov 1999, Leonel Hermida wrote: > is 'mazacoatl' some kind of venomous snake? The only references to "mazacoatl" that I found in the Florentine Codex were the following: mazacoatl** 1. no ihuan quiximati, in mitoa: *mazacoatl*,. and also they knew of the so-called mazacoatl. (b.10 f.10 p.171). momazacoahuiani** 2. in *momazacoahuiani*, intla elti, iciuhca mimiqui:. he who partaketh of the mazacoatl, if aggressive, quickly dieth. (b.6 f.10 p.126). ******* Molina reports only one entry for "mazacoatl" in each of his three dictionaries: 'serpent, snake', but I thought that I recalled another use -- an herb or something else that could ingested. So I checked Martin de la Cruz, _Libellus de Medicinalibus Indorum Herbis_ (given extra notoriety by the apparent rip-off of Emily Walcott Emmartt's edition of it by a person whose identity my discretion prevents me from mentioning). --No result. So I checked Maximino Martinez' _Catalogo de nombres vulgares y cientificos de plantas mexicanas_ with negative results too. Negative also on Louise Schoenhals' _A Spanish-English Glossary of Mexican Flora and Fauna in the plants section, but in the reptiles section, she gives it as 'boa constrictor'. But I *still* thought I remembered an allusion to it as something like an herb which could be ingested, so I went back to the Florentine Codex, where, in Book 6, I found the following: Florentine Codex, Book 6, pp. 125-126 (end of this quote marked with ************) 1. inin quil nepapacyo, cequi temeyalti in quitecualtia in quitetololtia, in ahzo quiteitia cihuatlahueliloque in ahuianime, inic tlaelpaquiznequi: this, it is said, is pleasurable; one [kind] causeth one to discharge one's fluid when the whores, the harlots cause one to eat it, swallow it, or drink it to provoke lewdness. 2. inin ca teohuitili, auh nel micoani: ipampa ca tepatzcac, this endangereth one; and it is very deadly because one is dried up. 3. ca tlami in tezzo, in totlapallo, in tochiahuaca ca tayo tlami, tlami in oxiotl, in ocotzoyotl: for it useth up our blood, our color, our oils; it useth up our moisture; it useth up the turpentine, the resin. 4. iuh mitoa in ***momazacohuahuia*** quixyeyecoa, zan ixquich qui, so, it is said, he who partaketh of the mazacoatl is moderate, drinketh it moderately. 5. in ahzo nahui, macuilli cihuatl quinamiquiz, manozo matlactli: [if immoderate,] he will have carnal access to perhaps four, five, perhaps ten women. 6. auh inin cihua, amo zan ceceppa in intech aci: ahzo quen nanappa, mamacuilpa: and to these women he hath access not only once with each one, but four or five times with each one, more or less. 7. auh ayac huecahua and no one endureth. 8. in momazacoahuiani, intla elti, iciuhca mimiqui: he who partaketh of the mazacoatl, if aggressive, quickly dieth. 9. inic miqui huel huaaqui, huel malichahui, huel pilini, huel quequetotztzitzin mochihua, ixmalichpipil: as he dieth he becometh well dried up, veritably a little lock of hair, having long tufts of hair, locks of hair on the face. 10. ahzo quin piltontli, ac ace quexquichcahuitia, ahzo quin achi quihualmana in tonatiuh ac ace tle quitoquilia in toteucyo, perhaps he had been a mere child; perhaps he endureth for some time; perhaps he continueth in the service of our lord. 11. ye cuele za ixhuehuenton, za mamalichpil, quequetzopil, iztalecpil, yacacuitlapilopil, quechhuihuichpil: za pipilcac in inacayo, iciuhca onmiqui. eventually he is only little old eyes, only little locks of hair, tufts of hair, very white, nasal mucus hanging, trembling of neck; his flesh only hangeth in wrinkles; he quickly dieth. 12. huel ximopia nopiltze: guard thyself well, o my son. 13. at aca itla mitzmaca in cualoni, in ihuani: perhaps someone giveth thee something to be eaten, to be drunk. 14. intla itech tichicoyolloa, ma oc ye achto coni, ma oc ye achto concua, in tlein mitzmaca: if thou art suspicious of him, let him eat first, let him drink first that which he giveth thee. 15. tle ticmati pay attention. 16. xonmimattinemi in tlalticpac, ca oticcac in zan tlanepantlacayotl monequi. continue with caution on earth, for thou hast heard that moderation is necessary." ************ Footnote #6 on page 125 contains the following: Mazacoatl: cf. Dibble and Anderson, _Florentine Codex_, Book XI, "Earthly Things," p. 80. And on page 80 is the following text: *** 1. mazacohuatl: mazacoatl 2. tepiton cuacuahue, catzactontli: amo tecuani, amo cueche: it is small, horned, blackish; not poisonous; without rattles. 3. yehuatl inic momeyaltia in aquique cenca cihuanequini, zan conichiqui in coni, zan imixtlama in ome ei cihuatl quinamiquiz they who are much given to women, in order to produce semen, just scrape and drink it [in water]; they just capture the eye of two [or] three women they are about to meet. 4. in aquin ommotototza in coni, zan cen tlacuauhtilia, ihuan zan cenquizticac in ixinach, ihuan yoyommiqui. he who drinks too much continually erects his virile member and constantly ejects his semen, and dies of lasciviousness. *** 5. tlalmazacohuatl: tlalmazacoatl 6. in tonayan nemi, it lives in the hot lands. 7. itoca: tzompilacahuaztli, it is called tzompilacauaztli. 8. tliltontli, tzotlactontli, alactontli it is small and black, small and glistening, slippery. 9. cacallo atecocollo. it has a shell, a sea-shell. 10. inic mitoa tlalmazacohuatl: ca zan nohuian, in milpan nemi: auh inic mazatl itech onca, ca cuacuauhtone. it is called tlalmazacoatl because it dwells everywhere in the maize fields; and from deer, because it has small horns. 11. inin ihcuac neci in quiahui. this one appears when it rains. 12. inic nenemi, in oncan quiza iuhquin tizaayotl, iuhquinma tzauctli quinoquitiuh. as it goes about, when it emerges, there it goes exuding as it were a varnish liquid, like glue. 13. in aquin quiz i: intla miec qui, no yoyommiqui, ihuan ayotlami: he who drinks this [in an infusion], if he drinks much of it, also dies of lasciviousness, and his moisture ends. 14. ic miquiz, iccen ic cocolizquiz. so he will die; he will finally sicken because of it. So it wasn't an herb. Thanks anyway, Emily and Maximino. Best regards, Joe From J_Taggart at ACAD.FANDM.EDU Mon Nov 15 14:39:53 1999 From: J_Taggart at ACAD.FANDM.EDU (James Taggart) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 07:39:53 -0700 Subject: For mature audiences (was: some doubts) Message-ID: >Among speakers of the Zacapoaxtla dialect of general Aztec, a mazacoat was a non venomous snake (a constrictor) that grew to be quite large. Jim Taggart On Sun, 14 Nov 1999, Leonel Hermida wrote: > >> is 'mazacoatl' some kind of venomous snake? > >(Sorry about my funny double cross character for c cedilla) > > The only references to "mazacoatl" that I found in the Florentine Codex= >=20 >were the following: >=20 >mazacoatl** >=20 >1. no ihuan quiximati, in mitoa: *mazacoatl*,. > and also they knew of the so-called ma=87acoatl. (b.10 f.10 > p.171).=20 >=20 >momazacoahuiani** >=20 >2. in *momazacoahuiani*, intla elti, iciuhca mimiqui:. > he who partaketh of the ma=87acoatl, if aggressive, quickly > dieth. (b.6 f.10 p.126).=20 > >******* > > Molina reports only one entry for "mazacoatl" in each of his three >dictionaries: 'serpent, snake', but I thought that I recalled another use >-- an herb or something else that could ingested. So I checked Martin de >la Cruz, _Libellus de Medicinalibus Indorum Herbis_ (given extra notoriety >by the apparent rip-off of Emily Walcott Emmartt's edition of it by a >person whose identity my discretion prevents me from mentioning). --No >result.=20 > So I checked Maximino Martinez' _Catalogo de nombres vulgares y=20 >cientificos de plantas mexicanas_ with negative results too. Negative also= > on=20 >Louise Schoenhals' _A Spanish-English Glossary of Mexican Flora and Fauna i= >n=20 >the plants section, but in the reptiles section, she gives it as 'boa=20 >constrictor'. > But I *still* thought I remembered an allusion to it as something like = >an=20 >herb which could be ingested, so I went back to the Florentine Codex, where= >,=20 >in Book 6, I found the following: > =20 > Florentine Codex, Book 6, pp. 125-126 (end of this quote marked > with ************) > > 1. inin quil nepapacyo, cequi temeyalti in quitecualtia in quitetolol= >tia, > in ahzo quiteitia cihuatlahueliloque in ahuianime, inic > tlaelpaquiznequi: > this, it is said, is pleasurable; one [kind] causeth one to > discharge one's fluid when the whores, the harlots cause > one to eat it, swallow it, or drink it to provoke lewdness. > =20 > 2. inin ca teohuitili, auh nel micoani: ipampa ca tepatzcac, > this endangereth one; and it is very deadly because one is > dried up. > =20 > 3. ca tlami in tezzo, in totlapallo, in tochiahuaca ca tayo > tlami, tlami in oxiotl, in ocotzoyotl: > for it useth up our blood, our color, our oils; it useth up > our moisture; it useth up the turpentine, the resin. > =20 > 4. iuh mitoa in ***momazacohuahuia*** quixyeyecoa, zan ixquich qui, > so, it is said, he who partaketh of the ma=87acoatl is moderate, > drinketh it moderately. > =20 > 5. in ahzo nahui, macuilli cihuatl quinamiquiz, manozo matlactli: > [if immoderate,] he will have carnal access to perhaps four, > five, perhaps ten women. > =20 > 6. auh inin cihua, amo zan ceceppa in intech aci: ahzo quen > nanappa, mamacuilpa: > and to these women he hath access not only once with each one, > but four or five times with each one, more or less. > =20 > 7. auh ayac huecahua > and no one endureth. > =20 > 8. in momazacoahuiani, intla elti, iciuhca mimiqui: > he who partaketh of the ma=87acoatl, if aggressive, quickly dieth. > =20 > 9. inic miqui huel huaaqui, huel malichahui, huel pilini, huel > quequetotztzitzin mochihua, ixmalichpipil: > as he dieth he becometh well dried up, veritably a little lock > of hair, having long tufts of hair, locks of hair on the > face. > =20 > 10. ahzo quin piltontli, ac ace quexquichcahuitia, ahzo quin > achi quihualmana in tonatiuh ac ace tle quitoquilia in toteucyo, > perhaps he had been a mere child; perhaps he endureth for some > time; perhaps he continueth in the service of our lord. > =20 > 11. ye cuele za ixhuehuenton, za mamalichpil, quequetzopil, > iztalecpil, yacacuitlapilopil, quechhuihuichpil: za pipilcac > in inacayo, iciuhca onmiqui. > eventually he is only little old eyes, only little locks of > hair, tufts of hair, very white, nasal mucus hanging, trembling > of neck; his flesh only hangeth in wrinkles; he quickly > dieth. > > 12. huel ximopia nopiltze: > guard thyself well, o my son. > =20 > 13. at aca itla mitzmaca in cualoni, in ihuani: > perhaps someone giveth thee something to be eaten, to be drunk. > =20 > 14. intla itech tichicoyolloa, ma oc ye achto coni, ma oc ye > achto concua, in tlein mitzmaca: > if thou art suspicious of him, let him eat first, let him drink > first that which he giveth thee. > =20 > 15. tle ticmati > pay attention. > =20 > 16. xonmimattinemi in tlalticpac, ca oticcac in zan tlanepantlacayotl > monequi. > continue with caution on earth, for thou hast heard that moderation > is necessary." > =20 >************ > >Footnote #6 on page 125 contains the following: > Ma=87acoatl: cf. Dibble and Anderson, _Florentine Codex_, Book XI, > "Earthly Things," p. 80. > > >And on page 80 is the following text: > > >*** 1. mazacohuatl: > ma=87acoatl > =20 > 2. tepiton cuacuahue, catzactontli: amo tecuani, amo cueche: > it is small, horned, blackish; not poisonous; without rattles. > =20 > 3. yehuatl inic momeyaltia in aquique cenca cihuanequini, zan > conichiqui in coni, zan imixtlama in ome ei cihuatl quinamiquiz > they who are much given to women, in order to produce semen, > just scrape and drink it [in water]; they just capture the > eye of two [or] three women they are about to meet. > =20 > 4. in aquin ommotototza in coni, zan cen tlacuauhtilia, ihuan > zan cenquizticac in ixinach, ihuan yoyommiqui. > he who drinks too much continually erects his virile member > and constantly ejects his semen, and dies of lasciviousness. > > > =20 >*** 5. tlalmazacohuatl: > tlalma=87acoatl > =20 > 6. in tonayan nemi, > it lives in the hot lands. > =20 > 7. itoca: tzompilacahuaztli, > it is called tzompilacauaztli. > =20 > 8. tliltontli, tzotlactontli, alactontli > it is small and black, small and glistening, slippery. > =20 > 9. cacallo atecocollo. > it has a shell, a sea-shell. > =20 > 10. inic mitoa tlalmazacohuatl: ca zan nohuian, in milpan nemi: > auh inic mazatl itech onca, ca cuacuauhtone. > it is called tlalma=87acoatl because it dwells everywhere in > the maize fields; and from deer, because it has small horns. > =20 > 11. inin ihcuac neci in quiahui. > this one appears when it rains. > =20 > 12. inic nenemi, in oncan quiza iuhquin tizaayotl, iuhquinma > tzauctli quinoquitiuh. > as it goes about, when it emerges, there it goes exuding as > it were a varnish liquid, like glue. > =20 > 13. in aquin quiz i: intla miec qui, no yoyommiqui, ihuan ayotlami: > he who drinks this [in an infusion], if he drinks much of it, > also dies of lasciviousness, and his moisture ends. > =20 > 14. ic miquiz, iccen ic cocolizquiz. > so he will die; he will finally sicken because of it. > =20 > >So it wasn't an herb. Thanks anyway, Emily and Maximino. > >Best regards, > >Joe James M. Taggart Lewis Audenreid Professor of History and Archaeology Department of Anthropology Franklin and Marshall College Lancaster, PA 17604-3003 tel. 717-291-4038 J_Taggart at ACAD.FANDM.EDU From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Nov 15 15:33:59 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 08:33:59 -0700 Subject: For mature audiences (was: some doubts) Message-ID: More about the mazacoatl. In the Florentine Codex book on natural history, it is reported that there are two snakes called mazacoatl. The first is a large, thick, dark-colored snake that lives in the forest and eats rabbits, birds, deer, and people. The second is black, long, and thick with no rattles on its tail and no fangs. It is said to be fairly docile, and people keep them in their homes. The reason for keeping them is that they are delicious to eat. The Florentine Codex provides a funny illustration of the mazacoatl as a snake with antlers (reminding one of the Texas "Jackalope" postcards of jack rabbits with antlers). Francisco Hernandez, in his Natural History of New Spain, Vol. II, reports that the mazacoatl was described to him as a snake of the hot country, very thick of body, as thick as a human limb or even as thick as the trunk of a human body. Fran From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 15 17:40:39 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:40:39 -0700 Subject: Mazacoatl Message-ID: >> Among speakers of the Zacapoaxtla dialect of general Aztec, a mazacoat > was a non venomous snake (a constrictor) that grew to be quite large. Also, down the road from Xochitlan c. Cuetzalan the mazacoat is as Jim says a large constrictor considered a good thing to have in one's milpa (as it eats pests) to the degree that if one is generally fortunate in a harvest one says to indicate this "quipia mazacoatl" [he/she has a mazacoat] indicating that the harvest was good. This sort of thing ties it into ideas about tonalli which also are animals and weather phenomena and have equally to do with the quality of one's harvest. In Sierra Norte de Puebla (and elsewhere!!!) cosmology has two snakes crossing over the sky. One bearing Venus, the other the sun. They are called Nezalcoat (probably Quetzalcoatl) and Mazacoat. As far as its oubourotic viagratic erotic powers, I've no clue. Richard Haly From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Mon Nov 15 21:46:10 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:46:10 -0700 Subject: Summer Course on Nahuatl Message-ID: Yale University will offer its third summer course on Nahuatl under the direction of Jonathan Amith. For further information go to the Institute web page: http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl/index.html John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From CCBtlevine at aol.com Mon Nov 15 23:01:23 1999 From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:01:23 -0700 Subject: Summer Course on Nahuatl Message-ID: In a message dated 11/15/1999 1:46:56 PM Pacific Standard Time, schwallr at selway.umt.edu writes: << Yale University will offer its third summer course on Nahuatl under the direction of Jonathan Amith. For further information go to the Institute web page: http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl/index.html >> I took the course last summer and highly recommend it. Tom Levine From GESX1CKAH at aol.com Tue Nov 16 05:29:45 1999 From: GESX1CKAH at aol.com (GESX1CKAH at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 22:29:45 -0700 Subject: Summer Course on Nahuatl Message-ID: what does a course like this run? already assuming not cheap! jess From Yaoxochitl at aol.com Tue Nov 16 06:29:50 1999 From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:29:50 -0700 Subject: Summer Course on Nahuatl Message-ID: the course costs $2,600 and is an 8 week course. From leonelhermida at netc.pt Wed Nov 17 12:31:11 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 05:31:11 -0700 Subject: in cuappetlapan Message-ID: Hi, In cuappetlapan, in ocelopetlapan oyeco, in oimmac *manca* in cuappiaztli, in cuauhxicalli, in ocuauhyacanque, in ocatlitique in tonatiuh in tlalteuctli: they came exercising military command; in their hands rested the eagle tube, the eagle vessel; they led the eagle warriors; they provided drink for the sun, for tlaltecutli. (b.6 f.9 p.106) I was able to depuzzle 'in cuappetlapan in ocelopetlapan' (please correct me if I am wrong: 'petlatl' is 'reed mat', so petlapan ('on the reed mat') must mean s.t. like 'office', so cuappetlapan < *cuauh- petlapan and ocelopetlapan must translate as 'the eagle-office [and] the ocelot-office) but I cannot find the verb root in 'oyeco' (ye?, yeco?, co?, though this must mean 'they came')...; the next doubt is 'oimmac' (unless 'imma' means 'their hands', immac = 'in their hands' and o- is the antecessive prefix ??); 'cuappiaztli' and 'cuauhxicalli' pose no problems but there remain the two verbal complexes o-cuauh-yacanque? and o-c-atli-tique? Thanks to Michael, Fran and Joe. I'm impressed with the Aztec pharmacopoeia (*pahamatl)!! Best regards, Leonel From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Nov 17 13:44:12 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 06:44:12 -0700 Subject: in cuappetlapan Message-ID: Leonel, Lately I've been working in another native American language family and have not spent much time at all with Nahuatl, but I'm happy to give you a few of my meagre memories when I can. And you are quite welcome. On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Leonel Hermida wrote: > Hi, > > In cuappetlapan, in ocelopetlapan oyeco, in oimmac *manca* > in cuappiaztli, in cuauhxicalli, in ocuauhyacanque, in > ocatlitique in tonatiuh in tlalteuctli: > they came exercising military command; in their hands > rested the eagle tube, the eagle vessel; they led the eagle > warriors; they provided drink for the sun, for tlaltecutli. > (b.6 f.9 p.106) > > I was able to depuzzle 'in cuappetlapan in ocelopetlapan' (please > correct me if I am wrong: 'petlatl' is 'reed mat' sim , so petlapan ('on the > reed mat') sim must mean s.t. like 'office', so cuappetlapan < *cuauh- > petlapan and ocelopetlapan must translate as 'the eagle-office > [and] the ocelot-office) isto e o que penso eu tambem. but I cannot find the verb root in 'oyeco' > (ye?, yeco?, co?, though this must mean 'they came')...; nao estou certo de esta palavra. Mas creio que seja . Joe o Fran vao sabe-la. the next > doubt is 'oimmac' (unless 'imma' means 'their hands', immac = 'in > their hands' and o- is the antecessive prefix ??); sim. o indica o passado e a traducao de e correcta. 'cuappiaztli' and > 'cuauhxicalli' pose no problems but there remain the two verbal > complexes o-cuauh-yacanque? and o-c-atli-tique? > yacana....yacatl + ana = guide, lead. Nose-draw: very graphic, huh!!?? (past tense) > Thanks to Michael, Fran and Joe. I'm impressed with the Aztec > pharmacopoeia (*pahamatl)!! > > Best regards, > > Leonel > > > > > From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu Wed Nov 17 15:38:45 1999 From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:38:45 -0700 Subject: in cuappetlapan Message-ID: > > the next > > doubt is 'oimmac' (unless 'imma' means 'their hands', immac = 'in > > their hands' and o- is the antecessive prefix ??); > > sim. o indica o passado e a traducao de e correcta. This is an interesting issue. If "o" is the past tense indicator then it is being attaching to the locative phrase "immac"[in their hands] rather than the verb "manca". Did they do this? Is it possible that this "o" is actually the directional "on" without the "n"? I think a little while back Fran mentioned "n" dropping, but I'm not sure if this was only in certain environments. If it is the past tense "o" then does this suggest that the "immac" is actually imbedded in the verb like nouns often are? I don't know, but if I had to guess, I would say that the "o" was actually "on". Galen From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Nov 17 16:17:25 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:17:25 -0700 Subject: in cuappetlapan Message-ID: Good point. I'm sure somebody who knows something will weigh in soon on this. I thought that there might have been a printing error and that the oimma was part of manca. As a past tense indicator it'd have to be on a verb, not possessed noun. And then, I thought -on- only went with birds, I mean verbs, or as the case may be. Michael On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Galen Brokaw wrote: > > > > the next > > > doubt is 'oimmac' (unless 'imma' means 'their hands', immac = 'in > > > their hands' and o- is the antecessive prefix ??); > > > > sim. o indica o passado e a traducao de e correcta. > > This is an interesting issue. If "o" is the past tense indicator then it is > being attaching to the locative phrase "immac"[in their hands] rather than > the verb "manca". Did they do this? Is it possible that this "o" is actually > the directional "on" without the "n"? I think a little while back Fran > mentioned "n" dropping, but I'm not sure if this was only in certain > environments. If it is the past tense "o" then does this suggest that the > "immac" is actually imbedded in the verb like nouns often are? I don't know, > but if I had to guess, I would say that the "o" was actually "on". > Galen > Michael McCafferty C.E.L.T. 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going from the me that others don't know to the other me that I don't know. -Juan Ramon Jimenez ******************************************************************************* From RCRAPO at wpo.hass.usu.edu Wed Nov 17 21:51:26 1999 From: RCRAPO at wpo.hass.usu.edu (Richley Crapo) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:51:26 -0700 Subject: Any suggestions? Message-ID: Anyone want to try deciphering this one? (Proveniance: early seventeenth century Tlaxcala) Poxauh quincuic intechhuic. From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 17 22:15:16 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:15:16 -0700 Subject: Any suggestions? Message-ID: > Anyone want to try deciphering this one? (Proveniance: early > seventeenth century Tlaxcala) > > Poxauh quincuic intechhuic. Off the top o' the head (tho' I can't claim this answer is therefore radiant): "He dug (into the earth). He carried (that which he dug?) He bore it to us." What are you working on? I have an interest in this time/place as I'm project ethnographer on a NGS grant "Proyecto La Malinche"... Best, Richard Haly From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu Wed Nov 17 23:08:36 1999 From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:08:36 -0700 Subject: Any suggestions? Message-ID: > > Poxauh quincuic intechhuic. I'm no expert, but I had some free time just now. As I was working on this, I received Richard's post. I came up with something a little different, but I was having trouble relating "poxauh" with the rest of the phrase. This is what I had: It swelled up (or it got soft) [from poxahua], he took (in a grabbing kind of way) them to them. I was translating "intechhuic" as: in=3rd person plural possessive -tech=postposition: attached to -huic=postposition: towards So, techhuic would be a double postposition. I've seen before where Nahuatl will put two post positions together, but I don't remember seeing "techhuic" before. Am I way off? Galen From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 17 23:24:12 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:24:12 -0700 Subject: Translation question Message-ID: Hi folks, While c.95% of the following is reasonably clear to me, I'd love some input on the section between asterisks for which I have too many possibilities: ica tehuan tomaticazinco . ticMochihuilizino,=20 nonic sentet ystac Amat tacuilolisti tapualisti motocallotia carta=8A quenami huel Cualzin **ticmozintoquilizino Huan ticMozintepostoquilizino. ** Huan tic motilizino, tein Huel Conteteneutihuiz =AD Huan tein huel Contetenquixtizinotihuiz =AD This is perhaps more intelligible if I change it to a -tl dialect and substitute y for -ll, etc. thus: ica tehuan tomaticatzinco . ticMochihuilitzino, nonic centetl yztac Amatl tlacuilolizti tlapoalizti motocayotia carta=8A=20 quenami huel Cualtzin **ticmotzintoquilitzino Huan ticMotzintepoztoquilitzino. ** Huan tic motilitzino, tlein Huel Conteteneutihuiz =AD Huan tlein huel Contetenquixtizinotihuiz =AD I didn't change ticmotzintepoztoquilitzino though it also appears (equally honorific) ticmotzintepostequilizino (in a later ms.): I think the problem begins with tepoz/tepuz etc. What say ye? Thanks, Richard Haly From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 17 23:28:09 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:28:09 -0700 Subject: Any suggestions? Message-ID: > I don't remember seeing "techhuic" before. I'm reading it as perfect tense of huica with indirect object (tech:to us) but now I see that Simeon has uicac for perfective... From rommell at agf.com Thu Nov 18 00:44:20 1999 From: rommell at agf.com (Rommel Lagman) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 17:44:20 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl 101 Message-ID: Hi everyone -- This is my first day in this list. I'd like to know if you guys can su= ggest any web site that features a sort of Nahuatl 101 -- the basics. Thanks. := -) Hola a todos -- Es mi primer dia en esta lista. Quisiera saber si ustedes supieran alg= unos sitios de web que presentan informaci=F3n basica sobre esta lengua. G= racias. :-) Jos=E9 Romelo = From RCRAPO at wpo.hass.usu.edu Thu Nov 18 03:54:16 1999 From: RCRAPO at wpo.hass.usu.edu (Richley Crapo) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:54:16 -0700 Subject: Any suggestions? Message-ID: I think you are correct about quincuic and intechuic. The latter, "to near them" is not what is thought of as "standard" Classical Aztec, but it seems to occur in Tlaxcala. It's Poxauh that's got me stumped. Richley <<< Galen Brokaw 11/17 4:11p >>> > > Poxauh quincuic intechhuic. I'm no expert, but I had some free time just now. As I was working on this, I received Richard's post. I came up with something a little different, but I was having trouble relating "poxauh" with the rest of the phrase. This is what I had: It swelled up (or it got soft) [from poxahua], he took (in a grabbing kind of way) them to them. I was translating "intechhuic" as: in=3rd person plural possessive -tech=postposition: attached to -huic=postposition: towards So, techhuic would be a double postposition. I've seen before where Nahuatl will put two post positions together, but I don't remember seeing "techhuic" before. Am I way off? Galen From robc at csufresno.edu Thu Nov 18 05:53:31 1999 From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert G. Comegys) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:53:31 -0700 Subject: Recognizing Nahuatl Message-ID: Dear Group, Is there some characteristic (or characteristics) of nahuatl that is (are) unique to it that could be used to prove that a written passage is only nahuatl and not some other language? I would be very grateful for established techniques or common knowledge or resources. All the best, John Comegys e mail address robc at csufresno.edu From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Nov 18 12:00:28 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 05:00:28 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl 101 Message-ID: Rommel. No. Not that I've heard. I'd suggest getting Kartunnen and Campbell's "introductory" grammar and workbook and digging in. It's state-of-the-art. No computer necessary. The address where you can get it is in the archives of this list-serve. (or Fritz Schwaller may post it again for the umpteenth time :) If you are a Spanish speaker, you may also enjoy Thelma Sullivan's _Compendio de la grammatica nahuatl_. best, Michael McCafferty On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Rommel Lagman wrote: > > > > Hi everyone -- > This is my first day in this list. I'd like to know if you guys can su= > ggest any > web site that features a sort of Nahuatl 101 -- the basics. Thanks. := > -) > > Hola a todos -- > Es mi primer dia en esta lista. Quisiera saber si ustedes supieran alg= > unos > sitios de web que presentan informaci=F3n basica sobre esta lengua. G= > racias. > :-) > > Jos=E9 Romelo > > = > > Michael McCafferty C.E.L.T. 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going from the me that others don't know to the other me that I don't know. -Juan Ramon Jimenez ******************************************************************************* From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Nov 18 11:45:17 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 04:45:17 -0700 Subject: Any suggestions? Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Leonel Hermida wrote: > Please allow me to put my "two cents worth" on "poxauh quincuic > intechhuic": as I have it 'cui= take, Michael: yeah, cui is correct. it's not cuica. the -c is the preterit marker on the verb. 'quincuic' is 'he grabbed them" Galen is correct that -techhuic is a "double postposition." This animal is **quite** common in "Classical" Nahuatl. With the direction postposition -huic, 'took them' is an acceptable translation. ----------------------------------------------------- grab' and 'cuica= sing' so to > explain the spare "-c" in 'quincuic': > "having grabbed them, they softened [and] brought them to us" > > > Have I put the foot on it? > Leonel > > > >I think you are correct about quincuic and intechuic. The latter, "to > >near them" is not what is thought of as "standard" Classical Aztec, but > >it seems to occur in Tlaxcala. It's Poxauh that's got me stumped. > > > >Richley > > > ><<< Galen Brokaw 11/17 4:11p >>> > >> > >> Poxauh quincuic intechhuic. > > > >I'm no expert, but I had some free time just now. As I was working on > >this, I received Richard's post. I came up with something a little > >different, but I was having trouble relating "poxauh" with the rest of > >the phrase. This is what I had: > > > >It swelled up (or it got soft) [from poxahua], he took (in a grabbing > >kind of way) them to them. > > > >I was translating "intechhuic" as: > >in=3rd person plural possessive > >-tech=postposition: attached to > >-huic=postposition: towards > > > >So, techhuic would be a double postposition. > >I've seen before where Nahuatl will put two post positions together, but > >I don't remember seeing "techhuic" before. > >Am I way off? > >Galen > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael McCafferty C.E.L.T. 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going from the me that others don't know to the other me that I don't know. -Juan Ramon Jimenez ******************************************************************************* From leonelhermida at netc.pt Thu Nov 18 11:30:09 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 04:30:09 -0700 Subject: Any suggestions? Message-ID: Please allow me to put my "two cents worth" on "poxauh quincuic intechhuic": as I have it 'cui= take, grab' and 'cuica= sing' so to explain the spare "-c" in 'quincuic': "having grabbed them, they softened [and] brought them to us" Have I put the foot on it? Leonel >I think you are correct about quincuic and intechuic. The latter, "to >near them" is not what is thought of as "standard" Classical Aztec, but >it seems to occur in Tlaxcala. It's Poxauh that's got me stumped. > >Richley > ><<< Galen Brokaw 11/17 4:11p >>> >> >> Poxauh quincuic intechhuic. > >I'm no expert, but I had some free time just now. As I was working on >this, I received Richard's post. I came up with something a little >different, but I was having trouble relating "poxauh" with the rest of >the phrase. This is what I had: > >It swelled up (or it got soft) [from poxahua], he took (in a grabbing >kind of way) them to them. > >I was translating "intechhuic" as: >in=3rd person plural possessive >-tech=postposition: attached to >-huic=postposition: towards > >So, techhuic would be a double postposition. >I've seen before where Nahuatl will put two post positions together, but >I don't remember seeing "techhuic" before. >Am I way off? >Galen > > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Thu Nov 18 11:14:48 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 04:14:48 -0700 Subject: in cuappetlapan Message-ID: > > On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Galen Brokaw wrote: > > > > > > > the next > > > > doubt is 'oimmac' (unless 'imma' means 'their hands', immac = 'in > > > > their hands' and o- is the antecessive prefix ??); > > > > This is an interesting issue. If "o" is the past tense indicator then it is > > being attaching to the locative phrase "immac"[in their hands] rather than > > the verb "manca". Did they do this? Is it possible that this "o" is actually > > the directional "on" without the "n"? I think a little while back Fran > > mentioned "n" dropping, but I'm not sure if this was only in certain > > environments. If it is the past tense "o" then does this suggest that the > > "immac" is actually imbedded in the verb like nouns often are? I don't know, > > but if I had to guess, I would say that the "o" was actually "on". > > Galen I woke up in the middle of the night and realized on- occurs elsewhere. Duh. We see in, for example in and . Yeah, Galen, this looks like |on-in-maitl-co|. Michael From RCRAPO at wpo.hass.usu.edu Thu Nov 18 15:56:28 1999 From: RCRAPO at wpo.hass.usu.edu (Richley Crapo) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 08:56:28 -0700 Subject: Aztec Idioms Message-ID: Is "cuali eztli" an original Nahuatl idiom for "of noble lineage", or is this more likely a loan-translation from Spanish into Nahuatl? richley From RCRAPO at wpo.hass.usu.edu Thu Nov 18 16:23:57 1999 From: RCRAPO at wpo.hass.usu.edu (Richley Crapo) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:23:57 -0700 Subject: Any suggestions? - correction Message-ID: I think I've solved my problem concerning "poxauh" by discovering that the transcription I was working with has dropped some relevant material. The correct wording is: "Oquinmamacac tlatquitl, huelitiliztli. [Inic huelquinyol ]Poxauh quincuic intechhuic. Inic otlatocatic onpoali yhuan matlactli xihuitl." I assume that the correct segmentation of the relevant portion should be "Inic huel quinyolpoxauh, quincuic intechuic." Sometimes I'm my own worst enemy. Richley From CCBtlevine at aol.com Fri Nov 19 01:05:08 1999 From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:05:08 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl 101 Message-ID: In a message dated 11/18/1999 4:01:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, mmccaffe at indiana.edu writes: << I'd suggest getting Kartunnen and Campbell's "introductory" grammar and workbook and digging in. It's state-of-the-art. No computer necessary. The address where you can get it is in the archives of this list-serve. (or Fritz Schwaller may post it again for the umpteenth time :) If you are a Spanish speaker, you may also enjoy Thelma Sullivan's _Compendio de la grammatica nahuatl_. best, Michael McCafferty >> Thelma Sullivan's grammar is also in English. Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar. However, I like Michel Launey's Introduccion a la Lengua Y a la Literatura Nahuatl. It is available in both Spanish and French. He does a very good job. He writes clearly and to the point. Tom Levine From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Fri Nov 19 01:49:53 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:49:53 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl 101 Message-ID: Tom Levine wrote: | Thelma Sullivan's grammar is also in English. Compendium of Nahuatl | Grammar. | | However, I like Michel Launey's Introduccion a la Lengua Y a la | Literatura Nahuatl. It is available in both Spanish and French. He | does a very good job. He writes clearly and to the point. I have Thelma Sullivan's grammar in English. Are there any grammars in German? Using an orthography based on German or Classical Latin? From Yaoxochitl at aol.com Fri Nov 19 04:22:06 1999 From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:22:06 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl 101 Message-ID: I forgot, how does one get to the archives list again? From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx Fri Nov 19 04:25:42 1999 From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:25:42 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl 101 Message-ID: The Spanish version of Launey's book was butchered by the UNAM: there are too many spelling errors for it to be of use to anyone but an advanced student of nahuatl (who would be able to recognize the errors). John Sullivan Doctorado en Historia Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de CCBtlevine at aol.com Enviado el: Jueves, 18 de Noviembre de 1999 07:08 p.m. Para: Multiple recipients of list Asunto: Re: Nahuatl 101 In a message dated 11/18/1999 4:01:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, mmccaffe at indiana.edu writes: << I'd suggest getting Kartunnen and Campbell's "introductory" grammar and workbook and digging in. It's state-of-the-art. No computer necessary. The address where you can get it is in the archives of this list-serve. (or Fritz Schwaller may post it again for the umpteenth time :) If you are a Spanish speaker, you may also enjoy Thelma Sullivan's _Compendio de la grammatica nahuatl_. best, Michael McCafferty >> Thelma Sullivan's grammar is also in English. Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar. However, I like Michel Launey's Introduccion a la Lengua Y a la Literatura Nahuatl. It is available in both Spanish and French. He does a very good job. He writes clearly and to the point. Tom Levine From mdmorris at indiana.edu Fri Nov 19 16:07:18 1999 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:07:18 -0700 Subject: Translation question Message-ID: Richard et al, Off the top of my head isn't going to be much help because I swear I haven't seen "toca" used in this way. What is the year of this document? Do you think we are talking about printed material? I'll look at some similar documents and ask around to try to give you a hand. Mark Morris P.S. I have a few problem phrases myself, one of which is "inquixic." I'll send the context later. On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Richard Haly wrote: > Hi folks, > > While c.95% of the following is reasonably clear to me, I'd love some input > on the section between asterisks for which I have too many possibilities: > > ica tehuan tomaticazinco . > ticMochihuilizino,=20 > nonic sentet ystac Amat > tacuilolisti tapualisti > motocallotia carta=8A > quenami huel Cualzin > **ticmozintoquilizino > Huan ticMozintepostoquilizino. ** > Huan tic motilizino, > tein Huel Conteteneutihuiz =AD > Huan tein huel Contetenquixtizinotihuiz =AD > > This is perhaps more intelligible if I change it to a -tl dialect and > substitute y for -ll, etc. thus: > > ica tehuan tomaticatzinco . > ticMochihuilitzino, > nonic centetl yztac Amatl > tlacuilolizti tlapoalizti > motocayotia carta=8A=20 > quenami huel Cualtzin > **ticmotzintoquilitzino > Huan ticMotzintepoztoquilitzino. ** > Huan tic motilitzino, > tlein Huel Conteteneutihuiz =AD > Huan tlein huel Contetenquixtizinotihuiz =AD > > I didn't change ticmotzintepoztoquilitzino though it also appears (equally > honorific) ticmotzintepostequilizino (in a later ms.): I think the problem > begins with tepoz/tepuz etc. > > What say ye? > > Thanks, > > Richard Haly > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Fri Nov 19 19:09:47 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:09:47 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl web site Message-ID: The archives of Nahuat-l, plus a limited number of links, and other resources materialsa are housed on the Nahuatl web site which I maintain. Information about purchasing the Campbell and Karttunen text is also available there. Point your browser to: http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl J. F. Schwaller, List Owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From CHAPEL885 at aol.com Fri Nov 19 21:37:00 1999 From: CHAPEL885 at aol.com (CHAPEL885 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 14:37:00 -0700 Subject: Aztec Idioms Message-ID: Please take us off your email list for the person who inquired no longer works here. From karttu at nantucket.net Sun Nov 21 20:23:39 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:23:39 -0700 Subject: Translation question Message-ID: Looks to be as though what is intended is not tepoz- but tepotz-. Tepotztoca is a transitive verb meaning 'to follow someone, to pursue a matter, to insist on something.' ---------- >From: Mark David Morris >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Translation question >Date: Fri, Nov 19, 1999, 11:09 AM > > Richard et al, > > Off the top of my head isn't going to be much help because I swear I > haven't seen "toca" used in this way. What is the year of this document? > Do you think we are talking about printed material? I'll look > at some similar documents and ask around to try to give you a hand. > > > > Mark Morris > > P.S. I have a few problem phrases myself, one of which is "inquixic." > I'll send the context later. > > > On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Richard Haly wrote: > >> Hi folks, >> >> While c.95% of the following is reasonably clear to me, I'd love some input >> on the section between asterisks for which I have too many possibilities: >> >> ica tehuan tomaticazinco . >> ticMochihuilizino,=20 >> nonic sentet ystac Amat >> tacuilolisti tapualisti >> motocallotia carta=8A >> quenami huel Cualzin >> **ticmozintoquilizino >> Huan ticMozintepostoquilizino. ** >> Huan tic motilizino, >> tein Huel Conteteneutihuiz =AD >> Huan tein huel Contetenquixtizinotihuiz =AD >> >> This is perhaps more intelligible if I change it to a -tl dialect and >> substitute y for -ll, etc. thus: >> >> ica tehuan tomaticatzinco . >> ticMochihuilitzino, >> nonic centetl yztac Amatl >> tlacuilolizti tlapoalizti >> motocayotia carta=8A=20 >> quenami huel Cualtzin >> **ticmotzintoquilitzino >> Huan ticMotzintepoztoquilitzino. ** >> Huan tic motilitzino, >> tlein Huel Conteteneutihuiz =AD >> Huan tlein huel Contetenquixtizinotihuiz =AD >> >> I didn't change ticmotzintepoztoquilitzino though it also appears (equally >> honorific) ticmotzintepostequilizino (in a later ms.): I think the problem >> begins with tepoz/tepuz etc. >> >> What say ye? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Richard Haly >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more > grief. Eccl 1:18 > > To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To > regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we > are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not > sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 > > MDM, PhD Candidate > Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. > > From karttu at nantucket.net Sun Nov 21 20:28:32 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:28:32 -0700 Subject: Interesting data Message-ID: Dear listeros, I was sent the following Nahuatl data from a very recent publication. It seems that for the provider of these data, the fact that Nahuatl does not distinguish masculine and feminine third person singular subjects is a problem that has been solved by resort to Spanish el/ella. Has anyone else recorded data of this sort? It's new ot me but plausible. Fran The reference is MacSwan, Jeff. A minimalist approach to intrasentential code switchine. 1999. NY: Garland. (this is a revision of his 1998 UCLA dissertation) Some acceptable examples with el and ella are: El kikoas tlakemetl 'He will buy clothes' Ella kikoas tlakemetl 'She will buy clothes' The comparable ungrammatical ones are: *Yo nikoas tlakemetl 'I will buy clothes' *Tu tikoas tlakemetl 'You will buy clothes' These are all on page 192 of his book. From SANCHEM2 at sce.com Mon Nov 22 14:11:50 1999 From: SANCHEM2 at sce.com (Sanchez, Michael) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 07:11:50 -0700 Subject: Interesting data Message-ID: can someone please take me off this list. Mike Sanchez SCE Communication Services Alhambra Bldg. "C" Pax 46226 (626) 308-6226 > ---------- > From: Frances Karttunen[SMTP:karttu at nantucket.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 1999 12:28 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Interesting data > > Dear listeros, > > I was sent the following Nahuatl data from a very recent publication. It > seems that for the provider of these data, the fact that Nahuatl does not > distinguish masculine and feminine third person singular subjects is a > problem that has been solved by resort to Spanish el/ella. > > Has anyone else recorded data of this sort? It's new ot me but plausible. > > Fran > > > > The reference is > MacSwan, Jeff. A minimalist approach to intrasentential code switchine. > 1999. NY: Garland. (this is a revision of his 1998 UCLA dissertation) > > Some acceptable examples with el and ella are: > > El kikoas tlakemetl > 'He will buy clothes' > > Ella kikoas tlakemetl > 'She will buy clothes' > > The comparable ungrammatical ones are: > > *Yo nikoas tlakemetl > 'I will buy clothes' > > *Tu tikoas tlakemetl > 'You will buy clothes' > > These are all on page 192 of his book. > From xikano_1 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 22 16:18:40 1999 From: xikano_1 at hotmail.com (XiKano *) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 09:18:40 -0700 Subject: Maybe Someone ... Message-ID: ..here can help out? -XiKano >>From the Aztlan board : My name is Josephine Volpe and I am a graduate student at UCLA. I am working as a researcher for a television series based on Michael Coe's book Breaking the Maya Code. We have been doing extensive research for the past six months under a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities. However, we are still searching for film, video, and still images of specific people and events significant to the history of the Mayan decipherment. Attached below is a description of the project, and a list of what we are seeking. Any help Aztlan members could give us, either by providing leads or by sharing material in their personal collections, would be greatly appreciated. Please reply directly to me at jvolpe at ucla.edu, rather than to the list. Thank you. CURRENT STATUS OF THE PROJECT: The television series Breaking the Maya Code was conceived in 1997 by producer David Lebrun and author Michael Coe. Michael Coe is serving as co-author and Principal Advisor to the project. The project is under the sponsorship of the Pre-Columbian Art Research Institute, and the Advisory Board consists of Federico Fahsen, William L. Fash, Nikolai Grube, Stephen D. Houston, Justin Kerr, Simon Martin, Peter Mathews, Mary Ellen Miller, Robert L. Sharer, David Stuart, George E. Stuart, Karl A. Taube, Barbara Tedlock, and Evon Z. Vogt. The project has received a research and scripting grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities. Researchers who have contributed to the project include Cheyenne Spetzler, Josephine Volpe, Margaret Jackson, Jeffrey Glover, Zachary Hruby, Claudia Garcia-Des Lauriers, and Kaylee Spencer. Extensive in-person research interviews have been conducted with most of the members of the advisory board, as well as Elizabeth Benson, Dorie Reents-Budet, David Freidel, Gillett Griffin, Chris Jones, Kathryn Josserand & Nicholas Hopkins, John Justeson, Terry Kaufman, David Kelley, Barbara Kerr, Barbara MacLeod, Joyce Marcus, John Robertson, Merle Robertson, Jeremy Sabloff, and Dennis Tedlock. (Interviews with others are ongoing.) In searching for images, we have reviewed some of the materials at the image archives of the Peabody Museum, the University of Pennsylvania, and the Newberry Library. We have reviewed (or are in the process of reviewing) several hundred books and articles and around twenty films and videos that were produced in the United States, the United Kingdom, and Latin America, as well as relevant footage from John Longyear, Phil Hofstetter, and Ortolf Karla. IMAGES WE ARE LOOKING FOR: 1. Unpublished graphics, photographs, film and video with images of: a) Any of the following individuals: Rafinesque, Leon de Rosny, Brasseur de Bourbourg, J.T. Goodman, Ernst Forstemann, Eduard Seler, Cyrus Thomas, Alfred P. Maudslay, Sylvanus G. Morley, Alfred Tozzer and Glover Allen, Hermann Beyer, Benjamin Whorf, Eric Thompson, Tatiana Proskouriakoff, Yuri Knorozov, Heinrich Berlin, Floyd Lounsbury, Linda Schele, David Kelley, Peter Mathews, Michael Coe, Stephen Houston, David Stuart, and Nikolai Grube. With regard to living individuals, we are particularly interested in material from past decades (pre-1990). b) Images of various meetings: the Mesa Redondas de Palenque from the 1970s and 80s, the 1970s Dumbarton Oaks Maya Meetings, and the early Texas Workshops from 1978-85. 2. Film or video of the archaeological excavation of epigraphic inscriptions. 3. A specific educational film showing the excavation of the tomb of Hasaw Chan Kawil at Tikal Temple 1. (We have had this film described to us, but we have been unable to locate the title or distributor of the film. It was probably released circa 1962.) 4. Films that were shot by Morley in the 1930s. 5. Any Colonial period images related to the Spanish in the Maya region or the Maya-Spanish interaction. 6. Any European-produced films on the Maya with images of archaeological excavation or of epigraphers in the field. At this point we are locating materials as part of our research. When the series goes into production, compensation will be paid to copyright holders for any materials that we use. Thanks again, Josephine Volpe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From macswan at asu.edu Mon Nov 22 18:45:24 1999 From: macswan at asu.edu (Jeff MacSwan) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:45:24 -0700 Subject: Interesting data Message-ID: At 01:30 PM 11/21/99 -0700, Frances Karttunen wrote: >I was sent the following Nahuatl data from a very recent publication. It >seems that for the provider of these data, the fact that Nahuatl does not >distinguish masculine and feminine third person singular subjects is a >problem that has been solved by resort to Spanish el/ella. > >The reference is >MacSwan, Jeff. A minimalist approach to intrasentential code switchine. >1999. NY: Garland. (this is a revision of his 1998 UCLA dissertation) Fran, Actually, my analysis is concerned with grammaticality in codeswitching. I wouldn't say that the use of the third person Spanish pronoun compensates for a Nahuatl pronoun which is unspecified for gender, especially since these examples were presented to bilingual consultants who gave grammaticality judgments on them. But it does turn out that bilinguals can mix languages at this boundary for third person but not first or second. In my analysis of the examples you quote below, I relate the grammaticality of the third person cases to the absence of overt third-person agreement morphology on the Nahuatl verb, and argue, in line with a proposal Pollock made for English, that verbs don't have to check agreement when they lack relevant morphology. For anyone interested in reading more about these and other Spanish-Nahuatl examples, my 1999 Garland book is the best source (ask your library to order it if you don't find it!). But the Garland book is a revision of my dissertation, and that's free on the web, at http://www.public.asu.edu/~macswan/diss.html I also wrote up a shorter paper which might be of interest (the data quoted below is treated on pages 32ff). You can download the paper version at http://www.public.asu.edu/~macswan/newcastle.pdf Thanks for your interest! Jeff >Some acceptable examples with el and ella are: > >El kikoas tlakemetl >'He will buy clothes' > >Ella kikoas tlakemetl >'She will buy clothes' > >The comparable ungrammatical ones are: > >*Yo nikoas tlakemetl >'I will buy clothes' > >*Tu tikoas tlakemetl >'You will buy clothes' > >These are all on page 192 of his book. > From SPoole8257 at aol.com Mon Nov 22 22:22:36 1999 From: SPoole8257 at aol.com (SPoole8257 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:22:36 -0700 Subject: Aztec pregnancy Message-ID: Dear Neteros: There is an assertion that is rather often made about the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe of Mexico, that is, that the black belt around the Virgin's waist was a Nahua symbol of pregnancy. I have searched various sources from Sahagun to Soustelle to more recent ones and have not found mention of such a custom. Has anyone ever encountered this? It has also been said that this custom was the source of the Spanish word "encinta," meaning pregnant, despite the fact that it is derived from Latin and has cognates in both French and Italian. Incidentally, the belt was originally purple and has turned black with time. Stafford Poole SPoole8257 at aol.com From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Nov 22 23:38:26 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:38:26 -0700 Subject: Aztec pregnancy Message-ID: At least some years ago Thelma Sullivan was the ultimate authority on pregnancy and childbirth among the Mexica. I don't have copies of these articles of hers at hand, but it would be worth looking into them: Sullivan 1966. "Pregnancy, Childbirth, and the Deification of Women Who Died in Childbirth" in Estudios de cultura nahuatl 6: 63-95. Sullivan 1980. "O Precious Necklace, O Quetzal Feather! Aztec Pregnancy and Childbirth Orations" in Alcheringa/Ethnopoetics 4: 38-56. Sullivan 1982. "Tlazolteotl-Ixcuina: The Great Spinner and Weaver" in The Art and Iconography of Late Post-Classic Central Mexico (E. Boone, ed): 7-35. ---------- >From: SPoole8257 at aol.com >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Aztec pregnancy >Date: Mon, Nov 22, 1999, 5:24 PM > > Dear Neteros: > > There is an assertion that is rather often made about the image of Our Lady > of Guadalupe of Mexico, that is, that the black belt around the Virgin's > waist was a Nahua symbol of pregnancy. I have searched various sources from > Sahagun to Soustelle to more recent ones and have not found mention of such a > custom. Has anyone ever encountered this? > > It has also been said that this custom was the source of the Spanish word > "encinta," meaning pregnant, despite the fact that it is derived from Latin > and has cognates in both French and Italian. > > Incidentally, the belt was originally purple and has turned black with time. > > Stafford Poole > SPoole8257 at aol.com > From mdmorris at indiana.edu Tue Nov 23 16:53:07 1999 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:53:07 -0700 Subject: Aztec pregnancy Message-ID: Below are three letters from Tlaxcala. The first is a fragment of one from 1752 which includes the "inquixic" and XAXAC expressions that have been troubling me. I think perhaps "inquixic" is ixquich ic. I am stumped on XAXAC, which is a shame because the word is both underlined and capitalized in the original. The following two are letters from 1810 which I find interesting. Sincerely, Mark Morris Yhua- yeh aprobados cate- ytehpa yn D pasql a:sico yalhua ynCoreo o"quimonquiltizino yn Ds tepezin otictlaca quitiq- yn Dn Pasql Axcan otitlatitlanq- coreo Cuitlaxcuapan ynhauc yn Sr. Sossa yhu- yn Despacho yca hual moicas yn Sr. Dn ygnacio ballarte Alcalde ordinario ompa Cuiltlaxcuapa yca hual moicas quichihuaqui yn ynfor macion o:motlacuilhuili yn Sr. lozano ma yn Sr. Sossa quiquix tis yni x:ax:ac ynahuatzinco yn Sr. obispo yca qui monahua tilis yn Sr. Ballarte mahualmo icas yCaon ycquali ticate inin sa yxtacasin Mochihua ypanpa ycuac quimachilisq- yn Diabl[o]sti yc ipan ticate ynquixicmona huatilitzino ynteopixcatzintli tlaxcantitla-------------------- Seq Dn Jose Maria Landa Cenca Nicpia paquilistli yc nic mati mitz momaquilia in to tto Ds. ytechicahuali tzin niCan nictitlani sete quihua mocxitlantzinco y ca yn Meliotzin Otimocau que lle Sabado y Nehuatli Ni merino Seq San Bernabe Amaxac notoca Juan Man hernandez tlapuo yn Metz tli de Marzo chicome tona li xihuitli 1810 n.c.t n.m. q. momatzin nimotetequipa no Catzin f1 v Juan Martin hernandez AluaSil Mayor Ata nacio Martin de Nava Oct. 6 de 1810 as Notisio Al Sr teniente del pueblo de Sta ana chauatenpan lla Sr. Dan Franco Fernadez lla Srn Dn tomas Barela ya todos los Comersiantes para el dia 27 de enero or el dia 8" de Fefrero a las sais de la tarde los sitamos contoda su gente qe se tengan por sabido qe tienan las Bidas Bendiadas y los Caudales perdidos qe las Cabesa emas de A Sar de todos los gachu pines y todos los ricos f1 v. qe emos de consumia con todos poreso Bam os lla matar al yndio gobernador llenfin a todos y no Ba A olo Bistos el Coreo enba Jador por qe no aga n lo qe yso ese trasio nero gobernador de prenderlo ypor eso les Abisamos qe se prebengan y Dispon gan Amorir para el Dia qe Sitamos los gahupines primero Mueren el Capitan General de los Reales efersitos de tanpico y tan miagu & opuesta Al Sr. teniente de Sta Ana Chautenpan - ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From gingeriw at stjohns.edu Tue Nov 23 19:38:29 1999 From: gingeriw at stjohns.edu (Gingerich Willard P.) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:38:29 -0700 Subject: Aztec pregnancy Message-ID: Tim Knab included the "Precious Necklace" texts in his 1994 edition of Thelma's translations: A Scattering of Jades. New York: Simon & Schuster/Touchstone, pp. 121-147. WG Willard Gingerich St. John's University 718-990-1442 FAX 718-990-1894 gingeriw at stjohns.edu -----Original Message----- From: Frances Karttunen [SMTP:karttu at nantucket.net] Sent: Monday, November 22, 1999 6:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Aztec pregnancy At least some years ago Thelma Sullivan was the ultimate authority on pregnancy and childbirth among the Mexica. I don't have copies of these articles of hers at hand, but it would be worth looking into them: Sullivan 1966. "Pregnancy, Childbirth, and the Deification of Women Who Died in Childbirth" in Estudios de cultura nahuatl 6: 63-95. Sullivan 1980. "O Precious Necklace, O Quetzal Feather! Aztec Pregnancy and Childbirth Orations" in Alcheringa/Ethnopoetics 4: 38-56. Sullivan 1982. "Tlazolteotl-Ixcuina: The Great Spinner and Weaver" in The Art and Iconography of Late Post-Classic Central Mexico (E. Boone, ed): 7-35. ---------- >From: SPoole8257 at aol.com >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Aztec pregnancy >Date: Mon, Nov 22, 1999, 5:24 PM > > Dear Neteros: > > There is an assertion that is rather often made about the image of Our Lady > of Guadalupe of Mexico, that is, that the black belt around the Virgin's > waist was a Nahua symbol of pregnancy. I have searched various sources from > Sahagun to Soustelle to more recent ones and have not found mention of such a > custom. Has anyone ever encountered this? > > It has also been said that this custom was the source of the Spanish word > "encinta," meaning pregnant, despite the fact that it is derived from Latin > and has cognates in both French and Italian. > > Incidentally, the belt was originally purple and has turned black with time. > > Stafford Poole > SPoole8257 at aol.com > From leonelhermida at netc.pt Thu Nov 25 17:01:07 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 10:01:07 -0700 Subject: Does anyone know these?... Message-ID: Does anybody know at least any of the English (or Spanish) names of the following animals (those marked 'b' are birds)? All were found in context, but none appears in the FC Word List by Joe Campbell... cuitlamiztli (kind of cougar? or other animal?) azcalcoyotl xelhuaztli ('cloven one...') tepanchichi tepanmamal calxoch ('xochcatl' is a small frog...) camaxihxiqui ixmatlatototl b tolcomoctli b amanacoche b yacatexotli b tzitzihua b nacaztzone b tzonyayauhqui b achalalactli b huactli b (should be common with this short name...) tachitohuia b tapalcatzotzonqui b tlathuicicitli b nochtototl b coyoltototl b atoncuepotli b I would not post them if I had not looked them up without success... Thanks for the help. Best regards, Leonel From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Nov 26 00:49:35 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 17:49:35 -0700 Subject: Does anyone know these?... Message-ID: I agree with Leonel's implicit enjoyment of Book 11 of the Florentine= =20 Codex and Professor Dibble's explicit liking of it. The vocabulary supplie= d=20 below benefits from re-consultation with it, harvesting the xochicualli of = the=20 years of labor invested by Professors Dibble and Anderson. Best regards Joe cuitlamiztli=20 same as itzcuincuani (dog-eater) =3D ringtail azcalcoyotl kind of coyote xelhuaztli=20 peccary tepanchichi mouse tepanmamal mouse calxoch =20 mouse camaxihxiqui pocket gopher ixmatlatototl b a bird that goes "campa uee" (the name imples that it looks like it has a net on its face) tolcomoctli b American bittern amanacoche b ?? yacatexotli b ruddy duck tzitzihua b pintail (duck) nacaztzone b eared grebe (same as yacapitzahuac) tzonyayauhqui b kind of duck (black head, white breast, "tastes like bacon") achalalactli b Stroptoceryle alcyon alcyon (cf. Martin del Campo) huactli b black-crowned night heron or laughing falcon tachitohuia b small green bird that goes "tachitohuia" =20 tapalcatzotzonqui b same as chichtli or tlalchicuahtli =3D barn owl tlathuicicitli b wren (tlathui =3D [to] dawn; -cicitli?)=20 [sings before dawn -- awakens people] nochtototl b common house finch [eats tuna; has a red head] coyoltototl b same as acatzanatl (tzanatl =3D grackle) [sings like a bell; lives in the reeds] =20 atoncuepotli b same as ateponaztli or atapalcatl =3D American bittern [when it sings, it sounds as if someone beat the two-toned drum] =20 occurrences in the Florentine Codex: (there are a few bits of chaff included in this list) achalalactli** =20 1. *achalalactli*:. achalalactli (b.11 f.4 p.38).=20 =20 2. inic motocayotia *achalalactli*, iuh tlatoa: cha, cha cha, chuchu, chala chala, chala:. it is named achalalactli because it sings thus: cha, chacha, chuchu, chala chala chala. (b.11 f.4 p.38).=20 =20 antotlatzitzihuan** =20 3. oc cenca amehuan namechnotza, namechtzatzilia in antecpipiltotonti: auh in *antotlatzitzihuan* in anpipiltin, in antlatocapipiltin: in anociuhtia, in mixitl, in tlapatl, in teihuinti, in teixmalacacho in octli, in ayectli, in acualli:. "i speak, i cry out especially to you, ye who are lords, and ye who are our uncles, ye who are noblemen, ye who are the sons of rulers, that ye leave alone the jimson weed, which maketh one drunk, confoundeth one; the pulque, which is evil, bad. (b.6 f.6 p.70).=20 =20 atoncuepotli** =20 4. ihuan itoca *atoncuepotli*, ihuan ateponaztli:. also its name is atoncuepotli and ateponaztli. (b.11 f.4 p.33).=20 =20 5. inic motocayotia *atoncuepotli*: inic tlatoa zan cen, in hualcaquizti; xittoncueponi, cenca caquizti.. for this reason is it called atoncuepotli: when it sings, it is clearly heard to explode; it is very loud. (b.11 f.4 p.33).=20 =20 6. *atoncuepotli*: no itoca atapalcatl,. the atoncuepotli is also called atapalcatl. (b.11 f.6 p.57).=20 =20 7. inic motocayotia *atoncuepotli*: inic tlatoa, iuhquin aca teponazoa.. it is named atoncuepotli because, when it sings, it is as if someone beat the two-toned drum. (b.11 f.6 p.57).=20 =20 atzitzihua** =20 8. quinamaca in chilchotl, in milchilli, in tonalchilli, in *atzitzihua*, in tochmilcayotl, in huaxtepecayotl, in michhuacayotl, in anahuacayotl, in cuextecayotl, in chichimecayotl,. he sells green chilis, sharp-pointed red chilis, a late variety, those from atzitziuacan, tochmilco, muaxtepec, michoacan, anauac, the muaxteca, the chichimeca. (b.10 f.4 p.67).=20 =20 atzitzihuacayotl** =20 9. tonalchilli, *atzitzihuacayotl* chilli, chiltecpin, texiochilli, chilcoztli, cohuixcayotl chilli,. hot chilis, chili from atzitziuacan, small chilis, chili powder, yellow chili, chili from the couixca, (b.8 f.4 p.68).=20 =20 azcalcoyotl** =20 10. *azcalcoyotl*:. azcalcoyotl (b.11 f.1 p.8).=20 =20 11. inic motocayotia *azcalcoyotl*: in ihcuac choca: iuhquin centzontli coyotl, choca, cequi tlatomahua, cequi tlapitzahua, cequi pipitzca.. for this reason is it called azcalcoyotl: when it howls, it howls like many coyotes--some in a full voice, some in a high-pitched one, some in a wail. (b.11 f.1 p.8).=20 =20 azcalxochitl** =20 12. *azcalxochitl*, iuhquin tolin. the azcalxochitl is like the tolin. (b.11 f.20 p.209).=20 =20 calxoch** =20 13. ihuan itoca tepanchichi, ihuan itoca tepanmamal, ihuan itoca *calxoch*.. its names are also tepanchichi, and tepanmamal, and calxoch. (b.11 f.2 p.17).=20 =20 14. inic motocayotia *calxoch*: ipanpa in zan mochipa calitic nemi.. it is called calxoch because it always lives in the house. (b.11 f.2 p.17).=20 =20 camaxihxiqui** =20 15. inic motocayotia *camaxihxiqui*: in manel ce hanega etl, mochi quitquiz, mochi quizacaz.. as for its being named camaxixiqui, even if it is a bushel of beans, it takes all of it, it carries off all of it. (b.11 f.2 p.18).=20 =20 camaxiquipile** =20 16. *camaxiquipile*, anozo camaxixiqui:. it is the cheek-bagged one; or the cheek-bags. (b.11 f.2 p.18).=20 =20 camaxitecuilli** =20 17. *camaxitecuilli*. vocal cords (b.10 f.6 p.108b).=20 =20 camaxixiqui** =20 18. camaxiquipile, anozo *camaxixiqui*:. it is the cheek-bagged one; or the cheek-bags. (b.11 f.2 p.18).=20 =20 coyoltototl** =20 19. *coyoltototl*:. coyoltototl (b.11 f.6 p.50).=20 =20 20. ic motocayotia *coyoltototl*:. hence is it named coyoltototl. (b.11 f.6 p.50).=20 =20 cuitlamiztli** =20 21. *cuitlamiztli*:. cuitlamiztli (b.11 f.1 p.6).=20 =20 22. inic motocayotia, *cuitlamiztli*, in ocacic centetl mazatl, quipehualtia. as for its being named cuitlamiztli: when it reaches a deer, it attacks it. (b.11 f.1 p.6).=20 =20 23. ic mitoa *cuitlamiztli*: ipampa xixicuin ihuan ipampa in amo motlatia. hence it is called cuitlamiztli; because it is a glutton, and because it does not hide itself away. (b.11 f.1 p.6).=20 =20 24. ca zan ye no yeh in *cuitlamiztli*:. it is the same as the cuitlamiztli. (b.11 f.1 p.6).=20 =20 25. inic motocayotia *cuitlamiztli*: in yohualtica huallauh in cahcalla:. as for its being named [itzcuinquani], at night it goes forth to the settlements. (b.11 f.1 p.6).=20 =20 =2E.. =20 huactli** =20 29. ic ome capitulo, oncan mitoa: in tetzahuitl catca, in zan necoc tlachiaya: in iuhqui catca, in ihcuac quicaquia, in tzatzia *huactli*: ihuan in tlein quichihuaya, pochteca in ihcuac cana iuhqui otlica, in impan mochihuaya in anozo impan tzatzia.. second chapter, in which is related the evil omen which they regarded in two ways: so it was when they heard that the white hooded hawk cried out; and what the merchants did when somewhere on the road such befell them; perhaps it cried out at them. (b.5 f.1 p.153).=20 =20 30. no ihuan, quitetzammatia: in ihcuac aca ipan huehuetzca, *huactli*:. likewise they considered it an omen of evil when the white hooded hawk screeched at someone. (b.5 f.1 p.153).=20 =20 31. auh intla pochteca, oztomeca, nenemini: iuhqui impan omochiuh, in impan ohuehuetzcac *huactli*: quitoaya. ahzo, ye itla, commonamictizque: ahzo ye ontlaatoctizque:. and if it were merchants, vanguard merchants, wayfarers, whom it befell that at them the white hooded hawk laughed, they said that perhaps now they should come upon something, or their goods would be carried away by the water, (b.5 f.1 p.153).=20 =20 32. auh aocac ontlamati, aocac itlamatia, intla iuhqui impan mochihua, in iuhqui in oquintetzahui *huactli*.. but no one worried or speculated whether it might befall them as the white hooded hawk had foreboded to them. (b.5 f.1 p.155).=20 =20 33. *huactli*:. black-crowned night heron (b.11 f.4 p.39).=20 =20 34. inic motocayotia *huactli*: iuhqui in huactli itlatol, quichihua: huac, huac:. it is named uactli because its song is like uactli: it makes [the sound] uac, uac. (b.11 f.4 p.39).=20 =20 35. inic motocayotia huactli: iuhqui in *huactli* itlatol, quichihua: huac, huac:. it is named uactli because its song is like uactli: it makes [the sound] uac, uac. (b.11 f.4 p.39).=20 =20 36. inin *huactli*: in omoteneuh cihuatl.. what is told of this black-crowned night heron [applies to] the hen. (b.11 f.4 p.39).=20 =20 37. auh in oquichtli *huactli*: amo cenca huei, zan cualton ihuan zan mochi ixnextic in ihhuiyo.. but the male blackcrowned night heron is not very large --only of average size, and all of its feathers are ashen. (b.11 f.4 p.39).=20 =20 38. *huactli*:. laughing falcon (b.11 f.5 p.42).=20 =20 huahcalxochyo** =20 39. iyetlachihua, ca tlamatiloa, huel quinamictia, xochyo huei nacazio, chapopohyo, *huahcalxochyo*, tlilxochyo, mecaxochyo, nanacayo, poyomayo, itziyeyo.. [the seller] prepares tobacco, rubs it in his hands, mixes it well with flowers, with uei nacaztli, with bitumen, with uacalxochitl, with tlilxochitl, with mecaxochitl, with mushrooms, with poyomatli, with "obsidian tobacco." (b.10 f.5 p.88).=20 =20 icamaxitecuil** =20 40. in *icamaxitecuil*: ontlamantli xixiquipilteuhca:. its pouches are like two bags. (b.11 f.2 p.18).=20 =20 ixmatlatototl** =20 41. *ixmatlatototl*:. ixmatlatototl (b.11 f.3 p.26).=20 =20 42. inic motocayotia *ixmatlatototl*: achi huel iuhqui in totlatol titlaca,. it is called ixmatlatototl because [its song] is almost like our own speech. (b.11 f.3 p.26).=20 =20 mopitzitzihuan** =20 43. huel xonmixtzayana, quenin toltecati, quenin amantecati, quenin tlatlamachicuiloa, quenin tlatlapalpoa, quenin tlatlapalaquia, in *mopitzitzihuan*, in motecuiyotzitzihuan, in toteucyohuan, in cihuapipilti:. open thine eyes well as to how to be an artisan, how to be a feather worker; how to judge colors; how to apply colors [to please] thy sisters, thy ladies, our honored ones, the noblewomen. (b.6 f.8 p.96).=20 =20 motecuiyotzitzihuan** =20 44. huel xonmixtzayana, quenin toltecati, quenin amantecati, quenin tlatlamachicuiloa, quenin tlatlapalpoa, quenin tlatlapalaquia, in mopitzitzihuan, in *motecuiyotzitzihuan*, in toteucyohuan, in cihuapipilti:. open thine eyes well as to how to be an artisan, how to be a feather worker; how to judge colors; how to apply colors [to please] thy sisters, thy ladies, our honored ones, the noblewomen. (b.6 f.8 p.96).=20 =20 45. yoyin in otechmozcaltilitiaque, in *motecuiyotzitzihuan*, in toteucyohuan in cihuapipilti, in ilamatlaca in tzoniztaque, in cuaiztaque:. thy lords, our lords, the noble women, the old women, the white-haired ones, the white-headed ones reared us in such a manner as this. (b.6 f.9 p.101).=20 =20 motlachihualtzitzihuan** =20 46. auh in quihuapahua, in quimizcaltia in *motlachihualtzitzihuan*: tlacuitlaticehua, tlacuecuechca:. "and those whom they rear, whom they nourish, thy creations, are all blanched, all trembling in fear." (b.6 f.1 p.8).=20 =20 motlatzitzihuan** =20 47. ca izcatqui in intzontecon in imelchiquiuh ipatiuh omochiuh, in *motlatzitzihuan*, pochteca, hiyaque in nahualoztomeca, in teyahualoani in yaopan, in aintlaaxcahuil, in intonehuiliz, in inchichinaquiliz omochiuh, in aintlaacuiuh,. behold what became the reward of the heads [and] breasts of thy beloved uncles, the outpost merchants, the disguised merchants, the spying merchants in warlike places: this which was not theirs [but] became [the reward] of their starvation, their fatigue. (b.9 f.1 p.5).=20 =20 48. ca oquichiuhque in intequiuh in *motlatzitzihuan*, in mexica, in pochteca, in oztomeca:. for thy uncles, the mexicans, the merchants, the vanguard merchants, have fulfilled their charge. (b.9 f.1 p.6).=20 =20 49. ca cequintin ipan omictiloque, oquitzauctiaque in *motlatzitzihuan*, nahualoztomeca.. some were slain because of it; they ambushed thy beloved uncles, the disguised merchants. (b.9 f.2 p.23).=20 =20 nacaztzone** =20 50. ihuan *nacaztzone*,. also [it is called] nacaztzone. (b.11 f.4 p.37).=20 =20 51. auh inic motocayotia *nacaztzone*: achi huiac in ihhuiyo, in inacaztlan manni, icuexcochtlampa itztimani: cuappachtic,. and it is named nacaztzone because its feathers which are over its ears, inclined toward the back of its neck, are somewhat long, tawny. (b.11 f.4 p.37).=20 =20 nicxelhuazhuia** =20 52. *nicxelhuazhuia*. I part it (b.10 f.6 p.100b).=20 =20 nochtototl** =20 53. *nochtototl*:. nochtototl (b.11 f.5 p.48).=20 =20 54. ic motocayotia *nochtototl*, in cuachichiltic; ihuan itzintenpan chichiltic. oc cenca ipampa; in huel itlacual nochtli.. it is named nochtototl because the head is chili-red and its rump is bordered with chili-red; especially because its real food is tuna. (b.11 f.5 p.48).=20 =20 notlatzitzihuane** =20 55. quimilhui. *notlatzitzihuane*, pochtecae, oztomecae: oanquimihiyohuilti= que,. he said to them: [o my beloved uncles, o merchants, o vanguard merchants, you have suffered fatigue. (b.9 f.1 p.5).=20 =20 56. auh niman quimilhui. *notlatzitzihuane*: oanquihiyohuique, huanquiciauhque:. and then he said to them: "o my beloved uncles, you have suffered fatigue; you are spent." (b.9 f.1 p.5).=20 =20 tachitohuia** =20 57. *tachitohuia*:. tachitohuia (b.11 f.5 p.46).=20 =20 58. inic motocayotia *tachitohuia*: ca itlatol ca quitoa inin tlatolli: tachitohuia.. it is named tachitohuia because of its song, because its song says tachitohuia. (b.11 f.5 p.46).=20 =20 59. inic motocayotia tachitohuia: ca itlatol ca quitoa inin tlatolli: *tachitohuia*.. it is named tachitohuia because of its song, because its song says tachitohuia. (b.11 f.5 p.46).=20 =20 60. in aquin quitta itloc yatiuh, tlatotiuh: quichiuhtiuh *tachitohuia*.. whomever it sees, it comes along with him, singing as it goes; it goes along making [the sound] tachitohuia. (b.11 f.5 p.46).=20 =20 tapalcatzotzonqui** =20 61. *tapalcatzotzonqui*:. tapalcatzotzonqui (b.11 f.5 p.47).=20 =20 62. ic motocayotia *tapalcatzotzonqui*: in itlatol, ca iuhquinma aca tapalcatl, quitzotzona: in manoce quicacalatza,. it is named tapalcatzotzonqui because its call is as if one struck potsherds, or rattled them. (b.11 f.5 p.47).=20 =20 teccizhuacalxochitl** =20 63. *teccizhuacalxochitl*:. teccizuacalxochitl (b.11 f.20 p.209).=20 =20 tehuicalxoch** =20 64. tlacaciuhqui, techannemini, *tehuicalxoch*, tehuihuicani, tetlalochtocani:. it is domesticated, a house-dweller, a favorite companion, a constant companion, which follows running. (b.11 f.2 p.16).=20 =20 tepanchichi** =20 65. ihuan itoca *tepanchichi*, ihuan itoca tepanmamal, ihuan itoca calxoch.. its names are also tepanchichi, and tepanmamal, and calxoch. (b.11 f.2 p.17).=20 =20 66. inic motocayotia *tepanchichi*: ipampa in tepamitl iitic, in itech nemi.. it is called tepanchichi because it lives in the walls [and] by the walls. (b.11 f.2 p.17).=20 =20 tepanmamal** =20 67. ihuan itoca tepanchichi, ihuan itoca *tepanmamal*, ihuan itoca calxoch.. its names are also tepanchichi, and tepanmamal, and calxoch. (b.11 f.2 p.17).=20 =20 68. inic motocayotia *tepanmamal*: ipanpa in quicohcoyonia, in quiquihquizoa tepamitl, in caltechtli.. it is called tepanmamal because it bores holes in, it penetrates walls--the house walls. (b.11 f.2 p.17).=20 =20 tepilcamaxitecuilli** =20 69. *tepilcamaxitecuilli*. labia (b.10 f.7 p.124a).=20 =20 tlapalhuacalxochitl** =20 70. *tlapalhuacalxochitl*;. tlapaluacalxochitl (b.11 f.21 p.209).=20 =20 tlathuicicitli** =20 71. *tlathuicicitli*:. wren (b.11 f.5 p.47).=20 =20 72. inic motocayotia *tlathuicicitli*: itlatol.. it is named tlathuicicitli because of its song. (b.11 f.5 p.47).=20 =20 73. inic caquizti itlatol: iuhquinma quitoa. *tlathuicicitli*:. as it sounds its song, it is as if it says tlathuicicitli. (b.11 f.5 p.47).=20 =20 tocamaxitecuil** =20 74. *tocamaxitecuil*. our vocal cords (b.10 f.6 p.108b).=20 =20 tochnacazhuacalxochitl** =20 75. *tochnacazhuacalxochitl*,. tochnacazuacalxochitl (b.11 f.21 p.209).=20 =20 tolcomoctli** =20 76. *tolcomoctli*:. american bittern (b.11 f.4 p.33).=20 =20 77. auh inic motocayotia *tolcomoctli*; inic tlatoa, iuhquin oncomoni.. and for this reason is it called tolcomoctli: as it sings, it resounds. (b.11 f.4 p.33).=20 =20 78. in yehuatl *tolcomoctli*: zan mochipa nican nemi tolla, nican mopilhuatia:. this american bittern always lives here in the reeds; here it raises its young. (b.11 f.4 p.33).=20 =20 79. in yehuatl in *tolcomoctli*: in yehuantin atlaca, mochipa inneixcuitil mochihua: in ihcuac cenca tlatoa, in mochipa cenyohual: ic quimati, ca ye huitz in quiyahuitl, cenca quiyahuiz: ihuan cenca onyezque in mimichtin, in ye mochintin atlan nemi.. for these water folk this american bittern is always a portent; when it sings a great deal, always all night, they know thereby that rains will come, it will rain much, and there will be many fish --all manner of water life. (b.11 f.4 p.33).=20 =20 tzihuactli** =20 80. auh in ompa onoque, in yaomicque necuametl, *tzihuactli*, mizquitla;. and where the war dead were, there were the magueys, the tziuactli plants, the mesquite groves. (b.3 f.3 p.49).=20 =20 81. izcatqui in intlacual chichimeca: nopalli, nochtli, cimatl, tlanelhuatl, *tzihuactli*, necuametl, iczoxochitl, iczoneneuctli, meneuctli, xiconeuctli, pipioli, cuauhneuctli: ihuan in tlein quiximati tlanelhuatl, in tlallan onoc, ihuan in ye ixquich nacatl, tochin, coatl, mazatl, tecuani: ihuan ixquich in patlantinemi.. the following is the food of the chichimeca: nopal, tuna, roots of the cimatl herb, tziuactli cactus, honey, maguey, yucca flowers, yucca sap, maguey sap, bee honey, wild bees, wild honey; and the roots of which they had knowledge, which were in the ground; and all the meats --rabbit, snake, deer, wild animals; and all [things] which flew. (b.10 f.10 p.174).=20 =20 82. *tzihuactli*. tziuactli (b.11 f.21 p.218).=20 =20 83. itoca, *tzihuactli*. its name is tziuactli. (b.11 f.21 p.218).=20 =20 tzitzihua** =20 84. *tzitzihua*:. pintail (b.11 f.4 p.36).=20 =20 85. inic motocayotia *tzitzihua*: in itzintenpan ixhuatimani, in ihhuiyo: in inepantla in icuitlapil, cenca iztac, ome mani, zan monepanotimani,. it is named tzitziua because of the feathers growing from its rump; among its tail feathers are two very white ones, located one above the other. (b.11 f.4 p.36).=20 =20 tzonyayauhqui** =20 86. *tzonyayauhqui*: cuatliltic, pepepetzca, pepetlani in icua ihhuiyo.. the head [feathers] are dark green. the head is black. its head feathers are resplendent, shimmering. (b.11 f.3 p.26).=20 =20 87. in *tzonyayauhqui*: in xomotl, in tezoloctli: huei, atlan chaneque;. the mallard, the xomotl, the te^=C7oloctli are sea-dwellers. (b.11 f.3 p.27).=20 =20 88. *tzonyayauhqui*:. tzonyayauhqui (b.11 f.4 p.37).=20 =20 89. inic motocayotia *tzonyayauhqui*, in itzontecon cenca tliltic, huel iuhquin tecolli, iquechtlan ontlantica:. it is named tzonyayauhqui because its head is very black, much like charcoal, reaching to its neck. (b.11 f.4 p.37).=20 =20 90. canauhtli: zan incentoca, in eliztac, in *tzonyayauhqui*, in tezoloctli:. duck is the collective name for the white-breast, the mallard, the te^=C7oloctli. (b.11 f.6 p.57).=20 =20 xelhuaznanacatl** =20 91. *xelhuaznanacatl*,. xehuaznanacatl (b.11 f.13 p.131).=20 =20 xelhuazquiza** =20 92. telpochtotolin, ichpochtotolin: maci, macontia, *xelhuazquiza*.. the young turkey cocks, the young turkey hens mature, form air-sacs, develop wattles. (b.11 f.6 p.54).=20 =20 xelhuaztli** =20 93. yehuatl in motocayotia, *xelhuaztli*.. this one is called [the cloven one.] (b.11 f.2 p.10).=20 =20 94. xexeltic, mimiltic, tzitziquiltic, iuhquin *xelhuaztli* ic ca.. it is divided, cylindrical, scarified, like something split. (b.11 f.13 p.131).=20 =20 yacatexotli** =20 95. ihuan *yacatexotli*,. also [it is called] yacatexotli. (b.11 f.4 p.36).=20 =20 96. auh inic motocayotia *yacatexotli*: in iten texotic, patlactontli:. it is named yacatexotli because its bill is light blue, small, wide. (b.11 f.4 p.36).=20 From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Nov 26 02:58:30 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 19:58:30 -0700 Subject: Does anyone know these?...(replacement copy) Message-ID: Please excuse my last ugly version of this message. The fact is, knowing that a problem existed, I had taken the precaution of sending it first to my wife [Mary Clayton] to see if the horrendous =20 =20 =20 =20 .... developed. She sent it back and **wasn't** there when I received it and sent it to Nahuat-l. That would seem to indicate that the spirits inhabiting the umt.edu and indiana.edu servers interact in a curious and whimsical way. Here is a clean copy (I hope, I hope, I hope): I agree with Leonel's implicit enjoyment of Book 11 of the Florentine Codex and Professor Dibble's explicit liking of it. The vocabulary supplied below benefits from re-consultation with it, harvesting the xochicualli of the years of labor invested by Professors Dibble and Anderson. Best regards Joe cuitlamiztli same as itzcuincuani (dog-eater) = ringtail azcalcoyotl kind of coyote xelhuaztli peccary tepanchichi mouse tepanmamal mouse calxoch mouse camaxihxiqui pocket gopher ixmatlatototl b a bird that goes "campa uee" (the name imples that it looks like it has a net on its face) tolcomoctli b American bittern amanacoche b ?? yacatexotli b ruddy duck tzitzihua b pintail (duck) nacaztzone b eared grebe (same as yacapitzahuac) tzonyayauhqui b kind of duck (black head, white breast, "tastes like bacon") achalalactli b Stroptoceryle alcyon alcyon (cf. Martin del Campo) huactli b black-crowned night heron or laughing falcon tachitohuia b small green bird that goes "tachitohuia" tapalcatzotzonqui b same as chichtli or tlalchicuahtli = barn owl tlathuicicitli b wren (tlathui = [to] dawn; -cicitli?) [sings before dawn -- awakens people] nochtototl b common house finch [eats tuna; has a red head] coyoltototl b same as acatzanatl (tzanatl = grackle) [sings like a bell; lives in the reeds] atoncuepotli b same as ateponaztli or atapalcatl = American bittern [when it sings, it sounds as if someone beat the two-toned drum] occurrences in the Florentine Codex: (there are a few bits of chaff included in this list) achalalactli** 1. *achalalactli*:. achalalactli (b.11 f.4 p.38). 2. inic motocayotia *achalalactli*, iuh tlatoa: cha, cha cha, chuchu, chala chala, chala:. it is named achalalactli because it sings thus: cha, chacha, chuchu, chala chala chala. (b.11 f.4 p.38). antotlatzitzihuan** 3. oc cenca amehuan namechnotza, namechtzatzilia in antecpipiltotonti: auh in *antotlatzitzihuan* in anpipiltin, in antlatocapipiltin: in anociuhtia, in mixitl, in tlapatl, in teihuinti, in teixmalacacho in octli, in ayectli, in acualli:. "i speak, i cry out especially to you, ye who are lords, and ye who are our uncles, ye who are noblemen, ye who are the sons of rulers, that ye leave alone the jimson weed, which maketh one drunk, confoundeth one; the pulque, which is evil, bad. (b.6 f.6 p.70). atoncuepotli** 4. ihuan itoca *atoncuepotli*, ihuan ateponaztli:. also its name is atoncuepotli and ateponaztli. (b.11 f.4 p.33). 5. inic motocayotia *atoncuepotli*: inic tlatoa zan cen, in hualcaquizti; xittoncueponi, cenca caquizti.. for this reason is it called atoncuepotli: when it sings, it is clearly heard to explode; it is very loud. (b.11 f.4 p.33). 6. *atoncuepotli*: no itoca atapalcatl,. the atoncuepotli is also called atapalcatl. (b.11 f.6 p.57). 7. inic motocayotia *atoncuepotli*: inic tlatoa, iuhquin aca teponazoa.. it is named atoncuepotli because, when it sings, it is as if someone beat the two-toned drum. (b.11 f.6 p.57). atzitzihua** 8. quinamaca in chilchotl, in milchilli, in tonalchilli, in *atzitzihua*, in tochmilcayotl, in huaxtepecayotl, in michhuacayotl, in anahuacayotl, in cuextecayotl, in chichimecayotl,. he sells green chilis, sharp-pointed red chilis, a late variety, those from atzitziuacan, tochmilco, muaxtepec, michoacan, anauac, the muaxteca, the chichimeca. (b.10 f.4 p.67). atzitzihuacayotl** 9. tonalchilli, *atzitzihuacayotl* chilli, chiltecpin, texiochilli, chilcoztli, cohuixcayotl chilli,. hot chilis, chili from atzitziuacan, small chilis, chili powder, yellow chili, chili from the couixca, (b.8 f.4 p.68). azcalcoyotl** 10. *azcalcoyotl*:. azcalcoyotl (b.11 f.1 p.8). 11. inic motocayotia *azcalcoyotl*: in ihcuac choca: iuhquin centzontli coyotl, choca, cequi tlatomahua, cequi tlapitzahua, cequi pipitzca.. for this reason is it called azcalcoyotl: when it howls, it howls like many coyotes--some in a full voice, some in a high-pitched one, some in a wail. (b.11 f.1 p.8). azcalxochitl** 12. *azcalxochitl*, iuhquin tolin. the azcalxochitl is like the tolin. (b.11 f.20 p.209). calxoch** 13. ihuan itoca tepanchichi, ihuan itoca tepanmamal, ihuan itoca *calxoch*.. its names are also tepanchichi, and tepanmamal, and calxoch. (b.11 f.2 p.17). 14. inic motocayotia *calxoch*: ipanpa in zan mochipa calitic nemi.. it is called calxoch because it always lives in the house. (b.11 f.2 p.17). camaxihxiqui** 15. inic motocayotia *camaxihxiqui*: in manel ce hanega etl, mochi quitquiz, mochi quizacaz.. as for its being named camaxixiqui, even if it is a bushel of beans, it takes all of it, it carries off all of it. (b.11 f.2 p.18). camaxiquipile** 16. *camaxiquipile*, anozo camaxixiqui:. it is the cheek-bagged one; or the cheek-bags. (b.11 f.2 p.18). camaxitecuilli** 17. *camaxitecuilli*. vocal cords (b.10 f.6 p.108b). camaxixiqui** 18. camaxiquipile, anozo *camaxixiqui*:. it is the cheek-bagged one; or the cheek-bags. (b.11 f.2 p.18). coyoltototl** 19. *coyoltototl*:. coyoltototl (b.11 f.6 p.50). 20. ic motocayotia *coyoltototl*:. hence is it named coyoltototl. (b.11 f.6 p.50). cuitlamiztli** 21. *cuitlamiztli*:. cuitlamiztli (b.11 f.1 p.6). 22. inic motocayotia, *cuitlamiztli*, in ocacic centetl mazatl, quipehualtia. as for its being named cuitlamiztli: when it reaches a deer, it attacks it. (b.11 f.1 p.6). 23. ic mitoa *cuitlamiztli*: ipampa xixicuin ihuan ipampa in amo motlatia. hence it is called cuitlamiztli; because it is a glutton, and because it does not hide itself away. (b.11 f.1 p.6). 24. ca zan ye no yeh in *cuitlamiztli*:. it is the same as the cuitlamiztli. (b.11 f.1 p.6). 25. inic motocayotia *cuitlamiztli*: in yohualtica huallauh in cahcalla:. as for its being named [itzcuinquani], at night it goes forth to the settlements. (b.11 f.1 p.6). ... huactli** 29. ic ome capitulo, oncan mitoa: in tetzahuitl catca, in zan necoc tlachiaya: in iuhqui catca, in ihcuac quicaquia, in tzatzia *huactli*: ihuan in tlein quichihuaya, pochteca in ihcuac cana iuhqui otlica, in impan mochihuaya in anozo impan tzatzia.. second chapter, in which is related the evil omen which they regarded in two ways: so it was when they heard that the white hooded hawk cried out; and what the merchants did when somewhere on the road such befell them; perhaps it cried out at them. (b.5 f.1 p.153). 30. no ihuan, quitetzammatia: in ihcuac aca ipan huehuetzca, *huactli*:. likewise they considered it an omen of evil when the white hooded hawk screeched at someone. (b.5 f.1 p.153). 31. auh intla pochteca, oztomeca, nenemini: iuhqui impan omochiuh, in impan ohuehuetzcac *huactli*: quitoaya. ahzo, ye itla, commonamictizque: ahzo ye ontlaatoctizque:. and if it were merchants, vanguard merchants, wayfarers, whom it befell that at them the white hooded hawk laughed, they said that perhaps now they should come upon something, or their goods would be carried away by the water, (b.5 f.1 p.153). 32. auh aocac ontlamati, aocac itlamatia, intla iuhqui impan mochihua, in iuhqui in oquintetzahui *huactli*.. but no one worried or speculated whether it might befall them as the white hooded hawk had foreboded to them. (b.5 f.1 p.155). 33. *huactli*:. black-crowned night heron (b.11 f.4 p.39). 34. inic motocayotia *huactli*: iuhqui in huactli itlatol, quichihua: huac, huac:. it is named uactli because its song is like uactli: it makes [the sound] uac, uac. (b.11 f.4 p.39). 35. inic motocayotia huactli: iuhqui in *huactli* itlatol, quichihua: huac, huac:. it is named uactli because its song is like uactli: it makes [the sound] uac, uac. (b.11 f.4 p.39). 36. inin *huactli*: in omoteneuh cihuatl.. what is told of this black-crowned night heron [applies to] the hen. (b.11 f.4 p.39). 37. auh in oquichtli *huactli*: amo cenca huei, zan cualton ihuan zan mochi ixnextic in ihhuiyo.. but the male blackcrowned night heron is not very large --only of average size, and all of its feathers are ashen. (b.11 f.4 p.39). 38. *huactli*:. laughing falcon (b.11 f.5 p.42). huahcalxochyo** 39. iyetlachihua, ca tlamatiloa, huel quinamictia, xochyo huei nacazio, chapopohyo, *huahcalxochyo*, tlilxochyo, mecaxochyo, nanacayo, poyomayo, itziyeyo.. [the seller] prepares tobacco, rubs it in his hands, mixes it well with flowers, with uei nacaztli, with bitumen, with uacalxochitl, with tlilxochitl, with mecaxochitl, with mushrooms, with poyomatli, with "obsidian tobacco." (b.10 f.5 p.88). icamaxitecuil** 40. in *icamaxitecuil*: ontlamantli xixiquipilteuhca:. its pouches are like two bags. (b.11 f.2 p.18). ixmatlatototl** 41. *ixmatlatototl*:. ixmatlatototl (b.11 f.3 p.26). 42. inic motocayotia *ixmatlatototl*: achi huel iuhqui in totlatol titlaca,. it is called ixmatlatototl because [its song] is almost like our own speech. (b.11 f.3 p.26). mopitzitzihuan** 43. huel xonmixtzayana, quenin toltecati, quenin amantecati, quenin tlatlamachicuiloa, quenin tlatlapalpoa, quenin tlatlapalaquia, in *mopitzitzihuan*, in motecuiyotzitzihuan, in toteucyohuan, in cihuapipilti:. open thine eyes well as to how to be an artisan, how to be a feather worker; how to judge colors; how to apply colors [to please] thy sisters, thy ladies, our honored ones, the noblewomen. (b.6 f.8 p.96). motecuiyotzitzihuan** 44. huel xonmixtzayana, quenin toltecati, quenin amantecati, quenin tlatlamachicuiloa, quenin tlatlapalpoa, quenin tlatlapalaquia, in mopitzitzihuan, in *motecuiyotzitzihuan*, in toteucyohuan, in cihuapipilti:. open thine eyes well as to how to be an artisan, how to be a feather worker; how to judge colors; how to apply colors [to please] thy sisters, thy ladies, our honored ones, the noblewomen. (b.6 f.8 p.96). 45. yoyin in otechmozcaltilitiaque, in *motecuiyotzitzihuan*, in toteucyohuan in cihuapipilti, in ilamatlaca in tzoniztaque, in cuaiztaque:. thy lords, our lords, the noble women, the old women, the white-haired ones, the white-headed ones reared us in such a manner as this. (b.6 f.9 p.101). motlachihualtzitzihuan** 46. auh in quihuapahua, in quimizcaltia in *motlachihualtzitzihuan*: tlacuitlaticehua, tlacuecuechca:. "and those whom they rear, whom they nourish, thy creations, are all blanched, all trembling in fear." (b.6 f.1 p.8). motlatzitzihuan** 47. ca izcatqui in intzontecon in imelchiquiuh ipatiuh omochiuh, in *motlatzitzihuan*, pochteca, hiyaque in nahualoztomeca, in teyahualoani in yaopan, in aintlaaxcahuil, in intonehuiliz, in inchichinaquiliz omochiuh, in aintlaacuiuh,. behold what became the reward of the heads [and] breasts of thy beloved uncles, the outpost merchants, the disguised merchants, the spying merchants in warlike places: this which was not theirs [but] became [the reward] of their starvation, their fatigue. (b.9 f.1 p.5). 48. ca oquichiuhque in intequiuh in *motlatzitzihuan*, in mexica, in pochteca, in oztomeca:. for thy uncles, the mexicans, the merchants, the vanguard merchants, have fulfilled their charge. (b.9 f.1 p.6). 49. ca cequintin ipan omictiloque, oquitzauctiaque in *motlatzitzihuan*, nahualoztomeca.. some were slain because of it; they ambushed thy beloved uncles, the disguised merchants. (b.9 f.2 p.23). nacaztzone** 50. ihuan *nacaztzone*,. also [it is called] nacaztzone. (b.11 f.4 p.37). 51. auh inic motocayotia *nacaztzone*: achi huiac in ihhuiyo, in inacaztlan manni, icuexcochtlampa itztimani: cuappachtic,. and it is named nacaztzone because its feathers which are over its ears, inclined toward the back of its neck, are somewhat long, tawny. (b.11 f.4 p.37). nicxelhuazhuia** 52. *nicxelhuazhuia*. I part it (b.10 f.6 p.100b). nochtototl** 53. *nochtototl*:. nochtototl (b.11 f.5 p.48). 54. ic motocayotia *nochtototl*, in cuachichiltic; ihuan itzintenpan chichiltic. oc cenca ipampa; in huel itlacual nochtli.. it is named nochtototl because the head is chili-red and its rump is bordered with chili-red; especially because its real food is tuna. (b.11 f.5 p.48). notlatzitzihuane** 55. quimilhui. *notlatzitzihuane*, pochtecae, oztomecae: oanquimihiyohuiltique,. he said to them: [o my beloved uncles, o merchants, o vanguard merchants, you have suffered fatigue. (b.9 f.1 p.5). 56. auh niman quimilhui. *notlatzitzihuane*: oanquihiyohuique, huanquiciauhque:. and then he said to them: "o my beloved uncles, you have suffered fatigue; you are spent." (b.9 f.1 p.5). tachitohuia** 57. *tachitohuia*:. tachitohuia (b.11 f.5 p.46). 58. inic motocayotia *tachitohuia*: ca itlatol ca quitoa inin tlatolli: tachitohuia.. it is named tachitohuia because of its song, because its song says tachitohuia. (b.11 f.5 p.46). 59. inic motocayotia tachitohuia: ca itlatol ca quitoa inin tlatolli: *tachitohuia*.. it is named tachitohuia because of its song, because its song says tachitohuia. (b.11 f.5 p.46). 60. in aquin quitta itloc yatiuh, tlatotiuh: quichiuhtiuh *tachitohuia*.. whomever it sees, it comes along with him, singing as it goes; it goes along making [the sound] tachitohuia. (b.11 f.5 p.46). tapalcatzotzonqui** 61. *tapalcatzotzonqui*:. tapalcatzotzonqui (b.11 f.5 p.47). 62. ic motocayotia *tapalcatzotzonqui*: in itlatol, ca iuhquinma aca tapalcatl, quitzotzona: in manoce quicacalatza,. it is named tapalcatzotzonqui because its call is as if one struck potsherds, or rattled them. (b.11 f.5 p.47). teccizhuacalxochitl** 63. *teccizhuacalxochitl*:. teccizuacalxochitl (b.11 f.20 p.209). tehuicalxoch** 64. tlacaciuhqui, techannemini, *tehuicalxoch*, tehuihuicani, tetlalochtocani:. it is domesticated, a house-dweller, a favorite companion, a constant companion, which follows running. (b.11 f.2 p.16). tepanchichi** 65. ihuan itoca *tepanchichi*, ihuan itoca tepanmamal, ihuan itoca calxoch.. its names are also tepanchichi, and tepanmamal, and calxoch. (b.11 f.2 p.17). 66. inic motocayotia *tepanchichi*: ipampa in tepamitl iitic, in itech nemi.. it is called tepanchichi because it lives in the walls [and] by the walls. (b.11 f.2 p.17). tepanmamal** 67. ihuan itoca tepanchichi, ihuan itoca *tepanmamal*, ihuan itoca calxoch.. its names are also tepanchichi, and tepanmamal, and calxoch. (b.11 f.2 p.17). 68. inic motocayotia *tepanmamal*: ipanpa in quicohcoyonia, in quiquihquizoa tepamitl, in caltechtli.. it is called tepanmamal because it bores holes in, it penetrates walls--the house walls. (b.11 f.2 p.17). tepilcamaxitecuilli** 69. *tepilcamaxitecuilli*. labia (b.10 f.7 p.124a). tlapalhuacalxochitl** 70. *tlapalhuacalxochitl*;. tlapaluacalxochitl (b.11 f.21 p.209). tlathuicicitli** 71. *tlathuicicitli*:. wren (b.11 f.5 p.47). 72. inic motocayotia *tlathuicicitli*: itlatol.. it is named tlathuicicitli because of its song. (b.11 f.5 p.47). 73. inic caquizti itlatol: iuhquinma quitoa. *tlathuicicitli*:. as it sounds its song, it is as if it says tlathuicicitli. (b.11 f.5 p.47). tocamaxitecuil** 74. *tocamaxitecuil*. our vocal cords (b.10 f.6 p.108b). tochnacazhuacalxochitl** 75. *tochnacazhuacalxochitl*,. tochnacazuacalxochitl (b.11 f.21 p.209). tolcomoctli** 76. *tolcomoctli*:. american bittern (b.11 f.4 p.33). 77. auh inic motocayotia *tolcomoctli*; inic tlatoa, iuhquin oncomoni.. and for this reason is it called tolcomoctli: as it sings, it resounds. (b.11 f.4 p.33). 78. in yehuatl *tolcomoctli*: zan mochipa nican nemi tolla, nican mopilhuatia:. this american bittern always lives here in the reeds; here it raises its young. (b.11 f.4 p.33). 79. in yehuatl in *tolcomoctli*: in yehuantin atlaca, mochipa inneixcuitil mochihua: in ihcuac cenca tlatoa, in mochipa cenyohual: ic quimati, ca ye huitz in quiyahuitl, cenca quiyahuiz: ihuan cenca onyezque in mimichtin, in ye mochintin atlan nemi.. for these water folk this american bittern is always a portent; when it sings a great deal, always all night, they know thereby that rains will come, it will rain much, and there will be many fish --all manner of water life. (b.11 f.4 p.33). tzihuactli** 80. auh in ompa onoque, in yaomicque necuametl, *tzihuactli*, mizquitla;. and where the war dead were, there were the magueys, the tziuactli plants, the mesquite groves. (b.3 f.3 p.49). 81. izcatqui in intlacual chichimeca: nopalli, nochtli, cimatl, tlanelhuatl, *tzihuactli*, necuametl, iczoxochitl, iczoneneuctli, meneuctli, xiconeuctli, pipioli, cuauhneuctli: ihuan in tlein quiximati tlanelhuatl, in tlallan onoc, ihuan in ye ixquich nacatl, tochin, coatl, mazatl, tecuani: ihuan ixquich in patlantinemi.. the following is the food of the chichimeca: nopal, tuna, roots of the cimatl herb, tziuactli cactus, honey, maguey, yucca flowers, yucca sap, maguey sap, bee honey, wild bees, wild honey; and the roots of which they had knowledge, which were in the ground; and all the meats --rabbit, snake, deer, wild animals; and all [things] which flew. (b.10 f.10 p.174). 82. *tzihuactli*. tziuactli (b.11 f.21 p.218). 83. itoca, *tzihuactli*. its name is tziuactli. (b.11 f.21 p.218). tzitzihua** 84. *tzitzihua*:. pintail (b.11 f.4 p.36). 85. inic motocayotia *tzitzihua*: in itzintenpan ixhuatimani, in ihhuiyo: in inepantla in icuitlapil, cenca iztac, ome mani, zan monepanotimani,. it is named tzitziua because of the feathers growing from its rump; among its tail feathers are two very white ones, located one above the other. (b.11 f.4 p.36). tzonyayauhqui** 86. *tzonyayauhqui*: cuatliltic, pepepetzca, pepetlani in icua ihhuiyo.. the head [feathers] are dark green. the head is black. its head feathers are resplendent, shimmering. (b.11 f.3 p.26). 87. in *tzonyayauhqui*: in xomotl, in tezoloctli: huei, atlan chaneque;. the mallard, the xomotl, the tec,oloctli are sea-dwellers. (b.11 f.3 p.27). 88. *tzonyayauhqui*:. tzonyayauhqui (b.11 f.4 p.37). 89. inic motocayotia *tzonyayauhqui*, in itzontecon cenca tliltic, huel iuhquin tecolli, iquechtlan ontlantica:. it is named tzonyayauhqui because its head is very black, much like charcoal, reaching to its neck. (b.11 f.4 p.37). 90. canauhtli: zan incentoca, in eliztac, in *tzonyayauhqui*, in tezoloctli:. duck is the collective name for the white-breast, the mallard, the tec,oloctli. (b.11 f.6 p.57). xelhuaznanacatl** 91. *xelhuaznanacatl*,. xehuaznanacatl (b.11 f.13 p.131). xelhuazquiza** 92. telpochtotolin, ichpochtotolin: maci, macontia, *xelhuazquiza*.. the young turkey cocks, the young turkey hens mature, form air-sacs, develop wattles. (b.11 f.6 p.54). xelhuaztli** 93. yehuatl in motocayotia, *xelhuaztli*.. this one is called [the cloven one.] (b.11 f.2 p.10). 94. xexeltic, mimiltic, tzitziquiltic, iuhquin *xelhuaztli* ic ca.. it is divided, cylindrical, scarified, like something split. (b.11 f.13 p.131). yacatexotli** 95. ihuan *yacatexotli*,. also [it is called] yacatexotli. (b.11 f.4 p.36). 96. auh inic motocayotia *yacatexotli*: in iten texotic, patlactontli:. it is named yacatexotli because its bill is light blue, small, wide. (b.11 f.4 p.36). From leonelhermida at netc.pt Fri Nov 26 15:22:16 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 08:22:16 -0700 Subject: 'double' entries Message-ID: Many thanks to Joe for his marvellous help on the animal names. As I have been collecting Nahuatl animal names during the last 2 months (312 entries up to now - no borrowings from Spanish ), I found some 'double' entries I report here. If someone knows better about any of those, please consider to share that information with me. Thank you. Best wishes, Leonel Here are the 'double' entries as of now (1999.11.26): atapalcatl = atoncuepotli (1) = ruddy duck ateponaztli = atoncuepotli (2) = American bittern atotolin (1) = American bittern atotolin (2) = American white pelican txanatl (1) = thrush txanatl (2) = grackle, slender-billed grackle tlalcoyotl (1) = jackal which hides underground and digs tlalcoyotl (2) = badger pezohtli (1) = badger pezotli (no -h-)(2) = coati aztatl (1) = stork aztatl (2) = heron metzcanauhtli(1) = '(crescent) moon-duck' (maybe the same as following?) metzcanauhtli (2) = blue-winged teal axoquen (1) = a white bird axoquen (2) = little blue heron tapayaxin(1) = a lizard (perhaps said loosely of a salamander?) tapayaxin(2) = salamander L. From Richard.Haly at colorado.edu Fri Nov 26 21:23:02 1999 From: Richard.Haly at colorado.edu (Richard Haly) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:23:02 -0700 Subject: 'double' entries Message-ID: Greetings: The "crescent moon duck" is probably a Golden Eye (or a Pintail) as it has a crescent just in front of the eye. Pezotli is probably not coati since coati is coati. Tzanatl is grackle. Perhaps some of the ambiguity can be cleared up by noting the sources for these, i.e. I'd trust the Florentine Codex more than something written to teach vocabulary in the 1930s. Also, one must question things like "jackal" (a European "understanding" of what a coyote is) since Mexico ain't Egypt and also distinctions between Stork and Heron which Nahuas may have not made. Same for "lizard" vs. "salamander." At issue is categorization: Western vs. Nahua. As westerners had different uses for animals (they weren't tonalli and ancestors) the division into what is what is correspondingly different. Moreover, there is also the issue of place, as different places will have different names for fauna. Sierra Norte de Puebla bird names do not - in the main - fit those of the Valley of Mexico. Same goes for flora. Having been taught a bit of indigenous uses of plants in Mexico, I was amused to find that the same plants in Ecuador had completely different uses. My earlier comments per names of planets are germane here for plants. Things are local in the world and they are also local in sources. Hope this helps, Richard > atapalcatl = atoncuepotli (1) = ruddy duck > ateponaztli = atoncuepotli (2) = American bittern > > atotolin (1) = American bittern > atotolin (2) = American white pelican > > txanatl (1) = thrush > txanatl (2) = grackle, slender-billed grackle > > tlalcoyotl (1) = jackal which hides underground and digs > tlalcoyotl (2) = badger > > pezohtli (1) = badger > pezotli (no -h-)(2) = coati > > aztatl (1) = stork > aztatl (2) = heron > > metzcanauhtli(1) = '(crescent) moon-duck' (maybe the same as following?) > metzcanauhtli (2) = blue-winged teal > > axoquen (1) = a white bird > axoquen (2) = little blue heron > > tapayaxin(1) = a lizard (perhaps said loosely of a salamander?) > tapayaxin(2) = salamander > > L. > > > > > From xnoguez at cmq.colmex.mx Fri Nov 26 22:28:42 1999 From: xnoguez at cmq.colmex.mx (Xavier Noguez) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 15:28:42 -0700 Subject: Aztec pregnancy Message-ID: Estimado se?or Poole: Interesante volver con el tema de la imagen guadalupana. Lamentablemente tengo la impresi?n que la pintura ha sufrido, a trav?s del tiempo, varias modificaciones. S?lo tenemos dos fuentes confiables: la descripci?n en n?huatl en el Nican Mopohua y la pintura de Baltasar de Echave Orio de 1606. En ella se ven los mismos elementos que contemplamos ahora, con la excepci?n de la corona que "desapareci?" misteriosamente en 1895. Echave pint? las alas del ?ngel de azul turquesa o verde, blanco y rojo, asunto en el que se pretendi? ver los colores de la bandera adoptada por la nueva naci?n en el siglo XIX...Varios autores, no muy serios, han se?alado el embarazo de la Virgen, pero con muy pocas pruebas. Sin embargo es una idea interesante, puesto que, a diferencia de otras Inmaculadas con el Ni?o Jes?s, la del Tepeyac no lo carga...Recordemos que existe una no muy remota posibilidad que el autor original de la extraordinaria pintura haya sido un indio: Marcos Cipac de Aquino, de San Jos? de los Naturales. Podr?amos saber m?s del origen e iconograf?a de la Guadalupana si se tuviera acceso al original de manera libre...pero esto es aboslutamente imposible. Le saluda Atentamente Xavier Noguez ---Mensaje original----- De: SPoole8257 at aol.com Para: Multiple recipients of list Fecha: Lunes 22 de Noviembre de 1999 4:45 PM Asunto: Aztec pregnancy >Dear Neteros: > >There is an assertion that is rather often made about the image of Our Lady >of Guadalupe of Mexico, that is, that the black belt around the Virgin's >waist was a Nahua symbol of pregnancy. I have searched various sources from >Sahagun to Soustelle to more recent ones and have not found mention of such a >custom. Has anyone ever encountered this? > >It has also been said that this custom was the source of the Spanish word >"encinta," meaning pregnant, despite the fact that it is derived from Latin >and has cognates in both French and Italian. > >Incidentally, the belt was originally purple and has turned black with time. > >Stafford Poole >SPoole8257 at aol.com From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Nov 27 00:15:06 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:15:06 -0700 Subject: 'double' entries Message-ID: > txanatl (1) = thrush > txanatl (2) = grackle, slender-billed grackle > This is tzanatl, not txanatl. The teotzanatl is the boat-tailed or great-tailed grackle, which anybody who has lived in Texas knows well as the bird with a voice like a rusty gate hinge. From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Nov 27 00:18:10 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:18:10 -0700 Subject: 'double' entries Message-ID: > pezohtli (1) = badger > pezotli (no -h-)(2) = coati The fact that the absolutive suffix has the form -tli makes clear that there is a stem-final saltillo whether or not it is written in as "h." From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Sat Nov 27 01:29:29 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 18:29:29 -0700 Subject: Varmints (Re: Does anyone know these?...) Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, R. Joe Campbell wrote: | tepanchichi | mouse | | tepanmamal | mouse | | calxoch | mouse What are the differences between these animals? Does any one of them come close to the memaloose found in the Mt. Hood National Forest in Oregon? Memalooses are bigger than rats, about a foot to a yard in height, sit back on their haunches, and have opposable thumbs just like monkeys or possums do. They like to cry out 'mee!' and this might be why they are called me[e]malooses. They are capable of getting into your backpacks and would just as soon steal cookies and fruit juice from you if you don't keep them at bay by throwing rocks at them. I think they are either omnivorous or vegetarian, and tend to live in troops of about a dozen or more at once, mostly making their homes in rockpiles in the high cascades. They are probably related to the white prairie dog of southeastern Oregon, but instead of living in the plains like to live in higher elevations. From Huaxyacac at aol.com Sat Nov 27 02:29:51 1999 From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:29:51 -0700 Subject: tzanatl Message-ID: Just a note on Fran's point about tzanatl: when Anderson and Dibble translated Sahagun's Book 11, the large grackles found in Mexico were considered to belong to the species Quiscalus (or Cassidix) major, the Boat-tailed Grackle. Since then, the birds found from Texas through Peru have been placed in a separate species, the Great-tailed Grackle, Quiscalus mexicanus. Interestingly, Hernandez provides the name hueitzanatl for the same bird, Q. mexicanus. One of these days I'm going to do a point by point comparison of Sahagun and Hernandez's bird names-- there are a lot of similarities, but some interesting differences, too. Alec Christensen From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Nov 27 06:01:26 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 23:01:26 -0700 Subject: inin ihuan inon Message-ID: >>From a private discussion with Leonel: (I thought some of it might be of general interest and that someone might add some details.) <>One thing I would like to know: are all variants of a word (numerals can have <>sometimes as many as half a dozen) found elsewhere (so that one have to <>consider them 'true variants') or else are some of them 'FC-specific' and so <>'non-standard'? **** There is a considerable amount of spelling variation in any Nahuatl document before the 20th century. Molina is "fairly" regular, but the FC has a lot of variation: /n/ dropping, /w/ variation = 'u, o, v, hu, ho, hv', /ll/ = 'l, ll', /tz ch/ sometimes not spelled 'i.e., they are dropped) before 's z tz ch', either /i/ or /y/ can be spelled as 'i y j', etc. Even *this* amount of variation is less than most documents! They simply didn't practice "standardization" to the degree that people in 20th century do. So it's hard to talk about 'non-standard' in the 16th century except by hind-sight (maybe from the point of view of Carochi). Specifically, I'm not sure what variation in the numerals you have in mind. Could you give me a few examples? Generally, I don't know of any forms that are 'FC-specific'. <>Also, how has one to distinguish between say 'Lihuicamina' (which is an <>obvious transposition error for Ilhuicamina, so there is no need to point it <>out...) ****I just checked the entire FC and 'Lihuicamina' doesn't appear. Maybe the spelling error was introduced when it was handled at the web-site. <>and 'cohuatl' which is a true variant of 'coatl' I suppose? By the <>way, which one would you prefer? For me, of the 3 theoretical possibilities, <>namely 1.coatl, 2.cohuatl (= cowatl) and 3.cohatl I can hardly (if at all) <>distinguish in pronounciation 1 from 2 but I distinguish well between the first <>couple and 3, so I would call 2 a somewhat 'pedantic' form of 1 unless it <>came from *co-huatl in which case 2 should be preferred... What do you think? **** Having my own answer in my head (which is where I keep all my opinions -- even when I let them out), I turned to Mary (whose linguistic judgement I highly trust) and asked her your question about #1 and #2. With no hint from me, she gave me my own answer, which follows a general principle of Nahuatl phonology (and morphophonemics); Fran's answer independently matches ours: it is impossible to know. Why? Because Nahuatl has no pronunciation contrast between /owa/ and /oa/; some dialects (I would say *most*) have a pronunciation rule that deletes /w/ in /o_a/, but other dialects have one that inserts /w/ in /oa/, leaving *all* /owa/ and /oa/ sequences as either [oa] (in the first set of dialects) or [owa] (in the second set of dialects). A similar thing is true of /iya/ and /ia/ sequences. The way to distinguish the presence vs. absence of the /w/ in apparent /oa/ sequences is alternation in morphological shape. Example: 1 quicoa he buys it 2 oquicouh he bought it 3 quineloa he stirs it 4 oquineloh he stirred it In #2, the final /w/ (-uh) betrays its underlying presence in #1, where it is removed in pronunciation. /y/ becomes [x] in syllable-final position, but is deleted in the sequence /i_a/: 1' quipia he keeps it 2' oquipix he kept it 3' mihtotia he dances 4' omihtotih he danced So 'pia' *does have a /y/ (just as apparent 'coa' has a /w/), but 'ihtotia' does not (just as 'neloa' lacks a /w/). To sum up the argument, since 'coa-tl' has its possible '/w/-position' in a 'protected' place (i.e., the 'a' is never lost and thus never puts the 'o' in syllable-final position), we cannot see whether a syllable- final [w] ('-uh') shows up. Therefore, the spelling selected is not on linguistic grounds, but on social ones -- I'd go along with the more frequent 'coatl'. To go back to #3, you rejected it correctly. The 'h' represents a consonant (the glottal stop) -- putting it into the spelling would be like inserting *any* consonant which isn't part of the word. The problem for us is partly in that the glottal stop isn't a phoneme in Spanish, English, and I think, Portuguese, so we don't take it "seriously". <>Worse still are the frequent omissions of h (the glottal stop) and n: if one <>were to write true 'classical' Nahuatl should one maintain 'ozomahtli' or write <>as well 'ozomatli' as it fancies one (this time there is difference of <>pronounciation as well) and 'cocoah' instead of 'cocoa'? **** Yes. The lack of writing the glottal stop ('h') is one of the serious faults of 16th century orthography. The failure to mark vowel length is the other. Obviously, we can deal with a considerable amount of spelling variation without great problems; except for the deletion of 'n', most of the variation referred to above is readable. <>Now just a few nouns: I know the plurals 'cuanacame' and 'xoxotlame': do they <>have singulars? **** Yes. At least, cuanacatl exists (the semantics of it fits my 'cute' category). Best regards, Joe From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Nov 27 16:28:22 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 09:28:22 -0700 Subject: inin ihuan inon Message-ID: >>From the dialogue between Leonel and Joe: > if one were to > write true 'classical' Nahuatl should one maintain 'ozomahtli' > and 'cocoah' instead of 'cocoa'? > **** Yes. The lack of writing the glottal stop ('h') is one of the > serious faults of 16th century orthography. Yes, it's a good idea to write in the "h" in ozomahtli. But no, one should not write "cocoah" in all places. The singular present form is cocoa. The plural present is cocoah. Fran From leonelhermida at netc.pt Sat Nov 27 20:21:48 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:21:48 -0700 Subject: numeral variants Message-ID: This is just for illustrating what I meant by 'variants' in numerals. I don't include either 'counters' (oontetl) or honorifics (ometzin), though I include both stand-alone forms and prefix forms (oon-); (all the following appear in Joe's FC Word List). 1. ce. = one; a; an; single., ce-. cepa. = once, one time. cen-. centzontli. = four hundred; many. cem-. cempoalli. = twenty, cemilhuitl. = one whole day cep-. ceppa. = once; one time; first; first time. 2. omentin. = two; both. omenti. = two. omen. = two. ome. = two; both; couple. omextin. = two; both. omexti. = two, both. om-. omilhuitl. = two days, ompoalilhuitl. = forty days. on-. onxihuitl. = two years, ontzontli.= eight hundred oon-. oontetl. = two. o- opa. = twice, two times. op- oppa. = two times, twice. ooc- ooccan. = in two places. 3. ye- yeilhuitl. = three days. yex- yexcan. = three places. e- eilhuitl. = three days. epoalxihuitl. = sixty years. eintin. = three. ei. = three. eixtin. = three. eei. = three. eex-. eexcan. = in three places. ex-. expa. = three times; thrice. 4 nahui. = four. nahuin. = four. nahuinti. = four. nahuintin. = four. nahuixti. = four. nahuixtin. = four. nauh-. nauhtzontli. = sixteen hundred. nahuacalli. = four boats nah-. nahmapilli. = four fingers (e.g., of a drink). na-. napa. = four times. nap-. nappa. = four times, nappoalilhuitl. = eighty days Maybe a little confusing for beginners, but a fascination just below the surface... Best regards, Leonel From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Nov 27 20:48:09 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:48:09 -0700 Subject: inin ihuan inon Message-ID: In my comments on spelling variation in the FC, in my hurry (I prefer to call it 'too tightly focused'), I forgot to mention a very important fact: I hardly ever use or refer to the original spelling form in the FC, since the variation in it is not relevant for what I am doing now -- in fact, using it would de-facilitate the work. So to avoid driving my wagon through the woods, two forms are maintained in the database: 1) original, 2) regularized. All operations are carried out on the regularized form. If the original form is needed, it is available. Here is a sample comparison from Book 11: This small sample from Book 11 of the FC gives some idea of the quality and quantity of orthographic variation found in the work. The first line of each entry is "regularized" and the second Nahuatl line is in the original orthography. (I have changed the c cedilla to 'c,' since my character doesn't travel very well. Further, the ^ represents a tilde over the preceding vowel.) It should be noted that regularized orthography still falls short of being adequate, since it usually omits the glottal stop and does not mark vowel length at all (but that's the way most of our texts are). 376. ozomatli: Oc,omatli: monkey 377. ihuan itoca cuauhchimal, yoan itoca quauhchimal, its name is also quauhchimal. 378. cuauhtla chane, anahuac, tonalixco: quauhtla chane, anaoac, tonalixco: it is a forest-dweller in anahuac, toward the east. 379. cuitlapicic, cuitlapicictic, cuitlaolol, cuitlaololtic: cuitlapilhuiac, cuitlapilcocoltic, cujtlapicic, cujtlapicictic, cujtlaolol, cujtlaololtic: cujtlapilhujac, cujtlapilcocoltic, it has a small back--minute; it is round-backed; it is of rounded back; it has a long, curled tail. 380. tlacamaye, tlacaicxe: izte, huel izte, iztihuihuiac. tlacamaie, tlacaicxe: izte, vel izte, iztiviviac. it has human hands, human feet, nails, real nails--long nails. 381. auh in itlatlachihual motenpapahuiani, mapipitzoani: tehuic momamamanani, Auh in jtlatlachioal motenpapavianj, mapipitzoanj: tevic momamamananj, and as to its actions: it is a shouter, a shrill whistler, making gestures toward one. 382. tetepachoa, tecuauhtlaxonecuilhuia. tetepachoa, tequauhtlaxonecujlhuja. it stones one, it hurls sticks at one. 383. achi tlacaxayaque: Achi tlacaxaiaque: it has a face which is a little human. 384. pazotic, popoltic, cuitlaololtic, cuitlaolol: pac,otic, popoltic, cujtlaololtic, cujtlaolol: it is shaggy..., round-backed, of rounded back. 385. texcalco in mopilhuatia za centetl in quichihua. texcalco in mopilhoatia c,a centetl in qujchioa. it bears its young in the crags; it produces only one. 386. auh in itlacual mochihua ixquich in tonacayotl, in xochicualli, in nacatl huellacatlacua, Auh in jtlaqual mochioa ixqujch in tonacaiutl, in xochiqualli, in nacatl vellacatlaqua, and all the maize, fruit, meat become its food; it eats like a human being. 387. no quicua in ococintli, no quicua in ahuacuauhtomatl, in ahuatomatl, no ihuan in cuauhcelotl. no qujqua in ococintli, no qujqua in aoaquauhtomatl, in aoatomatl, no yoan in quauhcelutl. also it eats pine nuts, acorns, and also tender shoots of trees. 388. auh inic maci: huei tletl motlalia, cintli moyahualochtia, anozo tlaolli: auh in tleco motoca, cenca huei in cacalotetl. Auh injc maci: vei tletl motlalia, cintli moiaoalochtia, anoc,o tlaolli: auh in tleco motoca, cenca vei in cacalotetl. and to capture them, a large fire is built; ears or kernels of maize are put around the edge, and in the blaze is buried a very large [stone called] cacalotetl. 389. auh in tlamani, in anque, motlaltoca: Auh in tlamanj, in anque, motlaltoca: and the trappers, the hunters, take cover. 390. auh in ye popoca, in manel canin cate, in yehuantin ozomati: quihualinecui in tletl, in poctli: auh in ie popoca, in manel canjn cate, in iehoa^tin oc,omati: qujoalinecuj in tletl, in poctli: and when [the fire] smokes, these monkeys, wherever they are, smell the fire, the smoke. 391. niman hualhui quinmamama in inpilhuan, cololhuitimoteca in tletl. njman oalhuj qujnmamama in inpilhoan, cololhujtimoteca in tletl. then they come; they carry their young on their backs; they seat themselves about the fire. 392. pehua in mozcohua: pehua in mocinixquia in mocalhuia, Peoa in mozcooa: peoa in mocinixquja in mocalhuja, they begin to warm themselves; the ears of maize begin to roast [and] they eat toasted maize. Best regards, Joe From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Nov 27 20:51:12 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:51:12 -0700 Subject: o Message-ID: Galen, This is just a quickie (atrasado because I was out of town, although I took a modemless keyboard with me). Comments later. Best regards, Joe 1. *aoteixco*. cuix aoteixco, teicpac tlachix?. was he perhaps disdainful?. (b.6 f.9 c.20 p.108) f.7 c.30 p.117) 311. *oce*. quilmach intla oce oelaquiloc: oc no iuhqui impan mochihuaz, in oc cequintin in ihuayolque: it was said that if one had been drowned, the same would yet also befall still others of his kinfolk. (b.11 f.7 c.4 p.69) 312. *ocen*. auh ca ocenmayan catca, ca ocenmayan onquiz, ca ocen onquiz in tlalticpac: "and it hath been forever; he hath gone forever; he hath left the earth completely.". (b.6 f.2 c.5 p.22) 313. *ocen*. a ca ocen oncatca, it has been complete. (b.6 f.2 c.5 p.22) 314. *ocen*. ca ocen onquiz, he hath left completely. (b.6 f.2 c.5 p.22) 315. *ocen*. ca ocen onquiz, he hath left forever. (b.6 f.4 c.10 p.48) 316. *ocen*. ca ocen motopten mopetlacalten, forever he hath gone to his retreat. (b.6 f.4 c.10 p.48) 317. *ocen*. cuix ocen hualla, hath he perhaps come forever?. (b.6 f.6 c.14 p.75) 452. *oi-noma*. ahzo oquicac, ahzo omononotz: ahzo oinoma iyomotlan inacaztech man: perhaps it hath heard, perhaps it hath exhorted itself, perhaps of its own accord it hath tugged at its flank, at its ear. (b.6 f.1 c.1 p.4) 453. *oi-noma*. aco oinoma cuahuitl, tetl quimomacac quimotocti: ahzo omahuac omononotz: inic momactzinco mociauhpouhtoc, in mociauhquetztoc, in tlatetohtoc: perhaps of its own accord it hath punished itself, castigated itself, perhaps it hath chidden itself, exhorted itself, so that in thy hands they animate one another, they encourage one another, they chatter. (b.6 f.1 c.1 p.4) 454. *oicamac*. ca oimac tihuetz, ca oicamac ticalac in tecuani, ca oticolini in izti, in itlan: for thou hast fallen into the claws, thou hast entered the mouth of a wild beast; thou hast stirred up justice. (b.6 f.6 c.14 p.72) 455. *oicpalpan*. auh ayac ilihuiztlacatl, ayac iciuhcatlacatl, ayac ihcicani, ayac yollocamachal, ayac tlaxcoloani oteuctlatocat, opetlapan huicpalpan catca. and no inconsiderate one, no impetuous one, no hasty one, no one untrustworthy with secrets, no rash one hath become ruler, hath been in the rulership. (b.6 f.9 c.20 p.110) 456. *oihcuac*. auh ma ic hualchocaz, ma ic hualmellacuahuaz in oihcuac itla ipan choloto, in no malauh, in no motecuini. and may there thus be weeping, may there thus be encouragement when, having gone treading upon something, they have also slipped, they have also faltered. (b.6 f.7 c.16 p.85) 457. *oihiyotl*. nopiltze oihiyotl ticmomachiti, oticmociahuilti, omitzmocnelili in toteucyo, "o my son, thou hast found thy breath; thou hast suffered; our lord hath been merciful to thee. (b.3 f.3 c.ap1 p.41) 458. *oihuic*. a ca oihuic anmoquixtique in atl, in tepetl: ye have done your duty to the city. (b.6 f.7 c.16 p.85) 459. *oihuic*. cuix oihuic tonmazouh. perhaps thou hast reached out thy arms unto him?. (b.6 f.12 c.25 p.141) 460. *oihuic*. quitoa. inin tlapalpol: cemanahuac in otlamamauhtiaya, cemanahuac in ohualimacaxoya, cemanahuac in oihuic hualnemamauhtiloya, hualneizahuiloya: they said: "this blockhead! he terrorized the world; there was dread in the world, there was terror before him in the world, there was astonishment. (b.12 f.4 c.23 p.66) 472. *oimac*. ca oimac tihuetz, ca oicamac ticalac in tecuani, ca oticolini in izti, in itlan: for thou hast fallen into the claws, thou hast entered the mouth of a wild beast; thou hast stirred up justice. (b.6 f.6 c.14 p.72) 473. *oimac*. in oimac onacic in miquiz: niman ye ic ipan conteca in techcatl, quinauhcahuia in quitilinia: when one who was to die came to their hands, thereupon they stretched him out on the sacrificial stone; four took him by the arms and legs to draw him taut. (b.9 f.5 c.14 p.66) 474. *oimacehual*. mitoaya ca oimacehual mochiuh, in aquin iuhqui, in. of one such as this it is said that he has achieved his merit. (b.6 f.19 c.41 p.235) 475. *oimixco*. ca oimixco, omicpac tontlachix, otiquimonixima: for thou hast recognized [and] acknowledged them in thy presence. (b.9 f.4 c.9 p.42) 476. *oimmac*. in cuappetlapan, in ocelopetlapan oyeco, in oimmac manca in cuappiaztli, in cuauhxicalli, in ocuauhyacanque, in ocatlitique in tonatiuh in tlalteuctli: they came exercising military command; in their hands rested the eagle tube, the eagle vessel; they led the eagle warriors; they provided drink for the sun, for tlaltecutli. (b.6 f.9 c.20 p.106) 477. *oimpan*. auh intla cana oimpan yoac, cana cuahuitl itzintlan, anozo atlauhcamac, ommololoa, onmocemololoa, ommotepeuhtitlalia, monechicoa, quicuitlalpia, quicencuitlalpia, quicemilpia, quicemmana in intopil, in ipan quixehuaya in inteouh: iyacateuctli. and if somewhere night fell, they gathered, joined, crowded, and assembled themselves somewhere at the foot of a tree or the opening of a gorge, and bound and tied, fastened together, and placed on the ground, all their staves, which represented their god yiacatecutli. (b.5 f.1 c.2 p.155) 478. *oimpan*. ca nel oimpan ya, oquimonamictique, in ahuel tecauh, in ahuel polihui: for in truth [slavery] had come upon them; they had come against that which they could not leave--of which they could not be rid. (b.7 f.2 c.8 p.24) 479. *oimpan*. ye ipan in calacque pochteca, ayotlan, in anahuac, ompa oinpan hualmotzauc: now in his time the merchants had entered [the provinces of] ayotlan [and] anauac, [and] there they had been besieged. (b.9 f.1 c.2 p.3) 480. *oinacaztech*. auh in matzin, in motepetzin: a ca oinacaztech ticmanili, ca oiyomotlan timopilotzino: ca oitech pachiuh, in atl cecec, in tzitzicaztli: and thy city thou hast taken by the ear, thou hast tugged at the flank; it hath been punished with icy water, with nettles;. (b.6 f.1 c.1 p.3) 481. *oinmac*. auh in icuac ye yauh toci, mochi tlacatl conchicha: in aca ixochiuh oinmac onoca, conchichicha ic conmotla. and when toci['s impersonator] went, everyone spat at her; anyone whose flowers lay in his hands spat at her; he cast [the flowers] at her. (b.2 f.7 c.30 p.125) 482. *oinmac*. auh in oinmac concauhque cihua, in micteca, in yehuatl tonatiuh: niman no cecemmani, hualhui, and there women who delivered this sun into the hands of the micteca then also dispersed. (b.6 f.14 c.29 p.163) 483. *oinpal*. ca oinpal antlacatque in toteucyohuan, in ye nachca onmantihui in teteucti, tlatoque, ca amo quiltitlan, ca amo cuauhtitlan in huayolque, in oantlacatque, for ye were born by the grace of our lords, the lords, the rulers who have already gone beyond to reside; for ye came to life, ye were born not among the herbs, in the woods. (b.6 f.7 c.17 p.90) 484. *ointech*. a ca oquimomma, ca oquimontocac: auh ca ointech onacic in iachcocolhuan, in itechiuhcahuan: a ca ocontocac, ca oitech onacic in tonan, in tota in mictlan teuctli: for he hath come to know, hath followed, hath arrived with his great-grandfathers, his progenitors; for he hath followed, he hath arrived by our mother, our father, mictlan tecutli. (b.6 f.4 c.10 p.48) 485. *ointech*. ca oconcuaco, ca oconico ca huintech onmonec, in cetzin in ometzin in monahuan in motahuan: one [or] two of thy mothers, of thy fathers, came to eat [and] drink as they required. (b.9 f.4 c.9 p.42) 486. *ointech*. auh in ointech ompachihuito espa=A4oles: niman imixpan ontlalcuaque acalyacac, in momatque, ca yehuatl in quetzalcoatl topiltzin, in oacico, and when they had drawn near to the spaniards, then before them they performed the earth-eating ceremony at the prows of the boats: they thought it was quetzalcoatl topiltzin who had come to arrive. (b.12 f.1 c.2 p.5) 487. *ointlan*. auh in amo ointlan cahaquico in imma, in imicxi: in oquizozoaco in imahaz, in incuitlapiltzin: in oteca mochihuaco, in aotlaxiccahuaco: and they were the ones who went not hiding their hands, their feet; rather, those who went extending their wings, their tail feathers, those who went working in behalf of others, those who went not neglecting things. (b.6 f.11 c.24 p.137) 488. *oinyollo*. in oinyollo, ompachiuh niman ye ic quilhuia. telpochtle: ca otocontlachielique, in tloque nahuaque, when their doubts had been satisfied, they thereupon said to him: "o youth, thou hast made preparations for the protector of all.". (b.9 f.5 c.12 p.56) 489. *oinyollo*. auh in oinyollo ompachiuh, in espa=A4oles: niman ic hualolinque ommotlalico in itztapalapan: and when the spaniards had been satisfied, then they moved on; they came to settle themselves at itztapalapan. (b.12 f.3 c.14 p.35) 490. *oipan*. quilmach in aquin itech motlalia, inin cocoliztli, in motocayotia omixochitl: ic pehua, in ahzo ipan omaxix, anozo oipan moquetz: in anozo miyecpa oquineuc, it was said of him upon whom this sickness, which they called omixochitl, settled, that it began thus: perhaps one had urinated or stepped upon it; or one had smelled it many times. (b.5 f.2 c.1a p.180) 491. *oipan*. auh inin cocoliztli: quilmach ic pehua, in iuh moztlacahuia huehuetque: in ahzo oquicuencolhui, in anozo oquineuc, in anoce oipan motlali: and of this ill it was said that thus did it begin--so were the ancients deceived: they had perchance stepped over it, or smelled it, or else sat upon it. (b.5 f.2 c.2a p.180) 492. *oipan*. aitzcuintli: oipan mito in chichi. the otter has been mentioned among the dogs. (b.11 f.7 c.4 p.67) 493. *oiquechtlan*. niman ihuicpa ya in nenequi. auh quittac oiquechtlan motecuix in cincohuatl, ihuan imapan. oiciacacpa quiquiz, then the traveler went toward it and saw that cincoatl was coiled about its neck and its legs; it protruded from its flank. (b.11 f.9 c.5 p.84) 494. *oitech*. auh in matzin, in motepetzin: a ca oinacaztech ticmanili, ca oiyomotlan timopilotzino: ca oitech pachiuh, in atl cecec, in tzitzicaztli: and thy city thou hast taken by the ear, thou hast tugged at the flank; it hath been punished with icy water, with nettles;. (b.6 f.1 c.1 p.3) 495. *oitech*. a ca oquimomma, ca oquimontocac: auh ca ointech onacic in iachcocolhuan, in itechiuhcahuan: a ca ocontocac, ca oitech onacic in tonan, in tota in mictlan teuctli: for he hath come to know, hath followed, hath arrived with his great-grandfathers, his progenitors; for he hath followed, he hath arrived by our mother, our father, mictlan tecutli. (b.6 f.4 c.10 p.48) 496. *oitech*. auh in ye iuhqui in oitech conpachoque: in oconquixti in cuauhyo in teyo, in teahualiztlatolli: zatepan quitlatlauhtia quichoquiztlapaloa, quicahualtia inic amo atlamatiz, inic amo mopoaz inic amo quimotlatquitocaz, in ahzo itla oquitlaocoli in toteucyo, in quexquich itlatqui ohualietia: in quetzalli, in tzinitzcan, in teoquechol, in zacuan, i xiuhtototl, in xomoihhuitl: anozo chalchihuitl ahzo apozonalli, ahzo atzaccayotl, ahzo acuahuitl, anozo tecuanehuatl: ahzo cacahuatl, ahzo teonacaztli in oquicuito, inic onahualoztomecatito. and when this was done, when they had reprehended, castigated, admonished him, then they besought him; they greeted him, weeping; they charged him not to be presumptuous nor proud, not to attribute his gains falsely to himself when perchance our lord had shown him some little mercy with as many of his goods as he had brought with him: the quetzal feathers, the trogonorus, red spoonbill, troupial, blue cotinga; the duck feathers; or the green stone, or the amber, or the stoppers for gourds, or stirring sticks; or the skins of wild animals; perhaps the cacao beans or the "divine ear" spice which he had goen to secure when he had gone practising trade as a disguised merchant. (b.9 f.3 c.6 p.30) 497. *oitech*. ca ihuic yatia. auh in oitech acito: quittac cohuatl, in itech omotetecuix: he went toward it, and when he came to reach it, he saw a serpent which was coiled around [the coyote]. (b.11 f.1 c.1 p.7) 498. *oitech*. auh intla oitech acico zan ic quimachititiquiza, .=20 and if [the victim] comes to it, it quickly attacks. (b.11 f.1 c.1 p.9) 499. *oitech*. oitech tommopachihuiltico in matzin, in motepetzin mexico, oipan tommohuetzitico in mopetlatzin, in mocpaltzin, in huachitzinca nimitzonnopielili, in onimitzonnotlapielili, thou hast come to govern thy city of mexico; thou hast come to descend upon thy mat, upon thy seat, which for a moment i have watched for thee, which i have guarded for thee. (b.12 f.3 c.16 p.44) 506. *oitlan*. amo ima amo iicxi oitlan cahaquico. he did not come inserting his hands, his feet under [his cape]. (b.6 f.4 c.10 p.48) 558. *oixpan*. ca iuh quitoaya, in aquin quicnelia, in oconmahuizolti, in oixpan conquixti, in itzopelica, in iahuiyaca, in itetlaocoliliz: for thus did they say: "he whom he had favored and honored, and to whom he had revealed his sweetness, fragrance, and mercy, from this same one he might withdraw and remove it.". (b.4 f.4 c.9 p.33) 559. *oixpan*. auh in oixpan conquetzato, niman ye ic quitta, quimoottitia, quipepepetla in cuauhtemoctzin: and when they had gone to stand him before [cortes], thereupon he looked at, he presented himself to, he continually stroked quauhtemoc. (b.12 f.8 c.40 p.120) 934. *omo-tech*. ic ilhuiloya in aquin quichihuaya tlatlacolli, atetlanemiliztli, in iztlacatiliztli. ca omotech mochiuh, in acualli, in ayectli: in iuhqui zacacualli, in iuhqui pollocotli, iztlacatiliztli. thus it was said of him who committed a fault, an ill-advised act, [who told] a lie: "on thee hath come evil, unrighteousness; like straw, like chaff, it is a lie.". (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.257) 1064. *omoch*. ca omoch mito in tlein oncan mochichihuaya, all that then happened hath been told. (b.4 f.12 c.39 p.129) 1065. *omoch*. in ma iuh tlacualli momati tlatolli, ca omoch mito in yamanqui, in totonqui, in huelic, in ahuiyac, as food is considered a discourse, which, [if] all is repeated, [is like food which is] soft, warm, savory, pleasing to smell;. (b.4 f.12 c.39 p.129) 1066. *omoch*. in ahnoce, za tamalzolli, tamalcecec, in opoxcauh in oalahuac, oalactix, in ozazalix, in huiyax, ca omoch mito. or like stale tamales, cold, soggy, slimy and slippery, sticky, and stinking, [so] is all that hath been said. (b.4 f.12 c.39 p.132) 1067. *omochi*. auh in otlamito in itlatol, in omochi quito itlachihual: quinanquilia, in tlapouhqui, in ixtli, in nacaztli mochihua, in tehuihuiti, in tepatilloti: and when he ended his words, when he had told all his deeds, the soothsayer, the one who became the mediator, the lieutenant, the deputy, answered him. (b.1 f.1 c.12 p.26) 1068. *omochi*. auh in omochi yecauh, mec quitquitze in inchan tepiquini, . and when all [the adornment] had been finished, then they quickly took them to the homes of those who had undertaken to provide the figures. (b.2 f.9 c.35 p.152) 1069. *omochi*. auh in ye iuhqui, in omochi centecpanque in innextlahual ithualnepantla; niman ye ic calaqui in inchan, ixpan moquetza in tletl: and when this was done, when all their offerings were arranged together in the middle of the courtyard, thereupon they entered their home [and] stood before the fire. (b.9 f.1 c.3 p.10) 1070. *omochi*. auh in ye ixquich in omochi nez: in ixquich monequiz, in aoc tle quitequipachoa. niman ye ic temolcahualtia: quinmachitia, in huehuetque, in ilamatque: ihuan in ixquichtin quipalehuizque in ihuanyolque: ihuan in cuicanime, chicometica in quitecaquitia. and when indeed all [and] everything was at hand which would be needed, when he was dissatisfied with nothing more, thereupon he had the people forget [their preoccupations]; he notified the old men, the old women, and all who were to assist him, the kinsmen and the singers; seven at a time he informed them. (b.9 f.3 c.7 p.33) 1071. *omochi*. auh in ihcuac in cenca ye miec in itlatqui: in ohuel quicnopilhui in tlalticpacayotl: in zan niman aoc tle quimamimictia, in ye mochi onca in ixquich popolihuiz: in aoc tle quitequipachoa, in omochi nez in huic tlatecac, in quitetlauhtiz in tilmatli: and when his possessions were very many, when he had been able to attain the things of the world, when in no wise did anything impede him, when indeed there was everything which was to be consumed, when nothing displeased him, when all was at hand, when everything appeared for others to eat, then he would present capes as gifts: (b.9 f.4 c.10 p.47) 1072. *omochi*. auh in ye iuhqui, in otlacencauh, in omochi nez, in ixquich omoteneuh in omito: niman ye ompehua in tochtepec in ompa cemonoque in pochteca in oztomeca in ye nohuian altepetl ipan, in ye nohuian altepetl ipan tlaca: and when this was done, when the things were prepared, when all was at hand that was mentioned and told of, then he set out for tochtepec, where resided together the merchants, the vanguard merchants, of every city: inhabitants of every city. (b.9 f.4 c.10 p.48) 1073. *omochi*. in ihcuac ye iuhqui in omochi mocencauh: niman ic tleco motlalia mocentotonia: when they are this far, when all is prepared, then [the mold] is placed on the fire; it is thoroughly heated. (b.9 f.6 c.16 p.77) 1074. *omochi*. in tlathuic: omochi motepehuaco in icuitlaxcol za quihuilantinemi. at dawn, it had scattered out its intestines; it went about dragging them behind it. (b.11 f.2 c.1 p.12) 1075. *omochi*. auh in ye iuhqui in omochi monechico in teocuitlatl. niman ye ic quinhualnotza, quinhualnenotzallani in ixquichtin in pipiltin in malintzin: . and when it had come to pass that all the gold was gathered together, thereupon marina summoned hither, ordered summoned hither, all the noblemen. (b.12 f.3 c.18 p.48) 1147. *onohuian*. auh anoce oommocnelico, ahzo oommototomaco, oommopehpetlahuaco, ahzo onohuian mitzonmohottititzinoco: and perhaps he hath come to do himself good: perhaps he hath come to unclothe, come to strip himself [of his faults]; perhaps he hath come to show himself to thee in all parts. (b.6 f.3 c.7 p.29) 1148. *onohuian*. ca oontlatlatlan in itlatoltzin, ca onohuian mitzonmonemitili, ca onohuian mitzonmahaxitili, for his words are ended; for he hath everywhere caused thee to live well, for he hath everywhere brought things to thee. (b.6 f.8 c.19 p.99) 1149. *onohuian*. ca oontlatlatlan in itlatoltzin, ca onohuian mitzonmonemitili, ca onohuian mitzonmahaxitili, for his words are ended; for he hath everywhere caused thee to live well, for he hath everywhere brought things to thee. (b.6 f.8 c.19 p.99) 1150. *onohuian*. ca oontlatlatlan in amihiyotzin, ca onohuian anquimonmahaxitilique, onohuian anquimonmonemitilique: aoc tle oanconmocahuitzinoque. ye have finished your words; everywhere ye have made them know to them; everywhere ye have caused them to reflect; nothing more have ye left out. (b.6 f.12 c.25 p.145) 1151. *onohuian*. ca oontlatlatlan in amihiyotzin, ca onohuian anquimonmahaxitilique, onohuian anquimonmonemitilique: aoc tle oanconmocahuitzinoque. ye have finished your words; everywhere ye have made them know to them; everywhere ye have caused them to reflect; nothing more have ye left out. (b.6 f.12 c.25 p.145) 1187. *opetlapan*. auh ayac ilihuiztlacatl, ayac iciuhcatlacatl, ayac ihcicani, ayac yollocamachal, ayac tlaxcoloani oteuctlatocat, opetlapan huicpalpan catca. and no inconsiderate one, no impetuous one, no hasty one, no one untrustworthy with secrets, no rash one hath become ruler, hath been in the rulership. (b.6 f.9 c.20 p.110) 1452. *ote-tloc*. inic omonemitico tlalticpac, inic otetloc, tenahuac monemitico: for they came to live on earth; for they came to live with others. (b.6 f.9 c.20 p.106) 1457. *otehuan*. auh in tlamacazqui: ca nel nozo, amo otehuan atatacac: quil oncan conmocahuili, inic amo tehuan atliz: but the priest [tlamacazqui], because it really did not dig for water with the others, it is said, they abandoned there, so that it did not drink with the others. (b.11 f.6 c.2 p.51) 1471. *otetech*. no ihuan ihcuac huel miz: in ihcuac otetech monec achtopa in tlacpac omito patli in itechpa necaxaniliztli. and also it can then be drunk when required by one as the first remedy mentioned above, referring to a relapse. (b.11 f.17 c.7 p.177) 1472. *otetlan*. auh otetlan moetztieco in petlacuac, in icpalcuac.=20 and they came to occupy position and authority among the people. (b.6 f.9 c.20 p.106) 1657. *oto-pan*. otopan tlatoloc. it hath been told above us. (b.6 f.3 c.8 p.37) 1658. *oto-pan*. quenmach nenti teotl cualo, tlatlatzini otopan quihualmonequilti: how will it be if the master, our lord, hath willed that upon us there be an eclipse, that there be thunder, that he hath only come to deprive us?. (b.6 f.15 c.34 p.186) 1667. *otopan*. mitoaya. otopan mochiuh, anozo otopan onquiz: in iuhqui teoatl, tlachinolli: quitoznequi: cocoliztli, anozo huel yehuatl in yaoyotl. it was said: "it is as if there came upon us, or there passed over us, the sea, the conflagration" -- that is, pestilence or this same war.". (b.6 f.19 c.43 p.244) 1668. *otopan*. mitoaya. otopan mochiuh, anozo otopan onquiz: in iuhqui teoatl, tlachinolli: quitoznequi: cocoliztli, anozo huel yehuatl in yaoyotl. it was said: "it is as if there came upon us, or there passed over us, the sea, the conflagration" -- that is, pestilence or this same war.". (b.6 f.19 c.43 p.244) 1669. *otopan*. ihcuac mitoa. otopan quimochihuili in toteucyo, in atl itztic, in atl cecec: then it is said: "our lord hath brought cold water, icy water, upon us. (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.254) 1670. *otopanomochiuh*. o ca iuhqui otopanomochiuh, in tlalticpac, ca zan achintoca tlalticpac otonnenque, zan iciuhca ontzonquiz, in tonemiliz, in ipampa in totlatlacol, oontlan, ompoliuh in tonemiliz. thus it befell us on earth, for we were living but a moment on earth, we swiftly brought our lives to a close because of our sins; our lives ended, perished. (b.1 f.4 c.Ap p.66) 1671. *otopanomochiuh*. o ca iuhqui otopanomochiuh, in tlalticpac, ca zan achintoca tlalticpac otonnenque, zan iciuhca ontzonquiz, in tonemiliz, in ipampa in totlatlacol, oontlan, ompoliuh in tonemiliz. thus it befell us on earth, for we were living but a moment on earth, we swiftly brought our lives to a close because of our sins; our lives ended, perished. (b.1 f.4 c.Ap p.66) From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Nov 27 22:36:58 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:36:58 -0700 Subject: Snakes and monkey Message-ID: I think I have confused Leonel's question with part of Joe's answer. When L. asked about cocoa, I assumed that he was talking about the transitive/reflexive verb 'to hurt someone, to be hurting or sick.' THAT has a saltillo only in the plural. (To say nothing of an obligatory object prefix.) But since the other part of his question was about ozomahtli 'monkey,' probably what L. was asking about was cocoa, the plural of the word for 'snake.' Yes, being plural, that always has a final saltillo ("h"). It also has a long vowel in the initial, reduplicated syllable: co:co:ah, The singular is co:a:tl 'snake.' Or, as Joe, Mary and I all agree, it could be co:hua:tl. There's no way of telling for sure whether there is a /w/ between the two internal vowels. Returning to verb morphology, using it reflexively, the verb cocoa: works in the following way: ninococoa 'I am sick, hurting' timococoa 'you-sg are sick, hurting' mococoa 'he/she/it is sick, hurting' titicocoah 'we are sick, hurting' ammococoah 'y'all are sick, hurting' mococoah 'they are sick, hurting' There is an intransitive verb cocoya that means about the same thing: nicocoya 'I am sick' etc. ticocoyah 'we are sick' etc. The preterite form of this, as Joe points out, has an "x" where an underlying /y/ ends up in word-final position: o:nicocox 'I was sick' But this is a weird construction, because it implies an instance of sickness. More likely would be the imperfect: nicocoyaya 'I was being sick' Sorry for the confusion. I hope I have put it right. Joe may want to add his thoughts about the relation of cocoya to cocoa:. Isn't Nahuatl a marvelous language? Fran From leonelhermida at netc.pt Sun Nov 28 09:31:55 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 02:31:55 -0700 Subject: Snakes and monkey Message-ID: Hi, Please allow me to agree here 100% with Fran that "Nahuatl is a marvelous language" and to point out it is refreshing and stimulating to the mind to find out how those people clothe the ordinary human thoughts and feelings in a completely new garb, light-years away from everything found in Europe (both ancient and modern). Thank you for your always welcome, clear and informative notes. Best wishes always, Leonel -----Original Message----- From: Frances Karttunen To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 10:44 PM Subject: Snakes and monkey > >I think I have confused Leonel's question with part of Joe's answer. > >When L. asked about cocoa, I assumed that he was talking about the >transitive/reflexive verb 'to hurt someone, to be hurting or sick.' THAT >has a saltillo only in the plural. (To say nothing of an obligatory object >prefix.) > >But since the other part of his question was about ozomahtli 'monkey,' >probably what L. was asking about was cocoa, the plural of the word for >'snake.' Yes, being plural, that always has a final saltillo ("h"). It >also has a long vowel in the initial, reduplicated syllable: co:co:ah, > >The singular is co:a:tl 'snake.' Or, as Joe, Mary and I all agree, it could >be co:hua:tl. There's no way of telling for sure whether there is a /w/ >between the two internal vowels. > > >Returning to verb morphology, using it reflexively, the verb cocoa: works in >the following way: > >ninococoa 'I am sick, hurting' >timococoa 'you-sg are sick, hurting' >mococoa 'he/she/it is sick, hurting' > >titicocoah 'we are sick, hurting' >ammococoah 'y'all are sick, hurting' >mococoah 'they are sick, hurting' > >There is an intransitive verb cocoya that means about the same thing: > >nicocoya 'I am sick' >etc. > >ticocoyah 'we are sick' >etc. > >The preterite form of this, as Joe points out, has an "x" where an >underlying /y/ ends up in word-final position: > >o:nicocox 'I was sick' > >But this is a weird construction, because it implies an instance of >sickness. More likely would be the imperfect: > >nicocoyaya 'I was being sick' > >Sorry for the confusion. I hope I have put it right. Joe may want to add >his thoughts about the relation of cocoya to cocoa:. > >Isn't Nahuatl a marvelous language? > >Fran From leonelhermida at netc.pt Sun Nov 28 12:36:36 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 05:36:36 -0700 Subject: Varmints (Re: Does anyone know these?...) Message-ID: Hi, With so vivid a description, I am almost disappointed to have never heard about memalooses before. As there is much 'vagueness' in the list below, it is perhaps not impossible this remarkable 'fellow' figures somewhere there under another designation: calxoch. mouse chachahuatl. dormouse cuauhquimichin. forest mouse. huezacotl. kangaroo rat. mo:tohtli. chipmunk (a ground-squirrel) motoyahuitl. brown chipmunk. tepanchichi. mouse tepanmamal. mouse tepapa. kind of mouse tetzopan. small field mouse tlalquimichin. field mouse. tlaltechalotl. ground squirrel. tozan (1). mole, rat (may be a specific animal, neither a mole nor a rat?) tozan (2). gopher (1 Amer. burrowing rodent. 2 N.Amer. ground-squirrel of genus Citellus) BTW I would also welcome the Nahuatl name for 'beaver'. And that's all for the moment (don't include either 'true squirrels' or 'rabbits'; nor 'quimichme'/'quiquimichtin') Regards, Leonel -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Montchalin To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 1:36 AM Subject: Varmints (Re: Does anyone know these?...) >On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, R. Joe Campbell wrote: > >| tepanchichi >| mouse >| >| tepanmamal >| mouse >| >| calxoch >| mouse > >What are the differences between these animals? Does any one of them come >close to the memaloose found in the Mt. Hood National Forest in Oregon? >Memalooses are bigger than rats, about a foot to a yard in height, sit >back on their haunches, and have opposable thumbs just like monkeys or >possums do. They like to cry out 'mee!' and this might be why they are >called me[e]malooses. They are capable of getting into your backpacks and >would just as soon steal cookies and fruit juice from you if you don't >keep them at bay by throwing rocks at them. I think they are either >omnivorous or vegetarian, and tend to live in troops of about a dozen or >more at once, mostly making their homes in rockpiles in the high cascades. >They are probably related to the white prairie dog of southeastern Oregon, >but instead of living in the plains like to live in higher elevations. > From campbel at indiana.edu Sun Nov 28 21:36:11 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 14:36:11 -0700 Subject: intech Message-ID: Leonel, Here the little list of 'intech' in context that we were discussing.=20 As I have probably said before (and repeat too often), the best way to learn postpositions in Nahuatl is not by hoping to have some invariable translation into one's language, but to learn them by context -- maybe treat them as idioms at first in short phrases. All the best to you and your family, Joe =20 intech** =20 1. *intech* tlamiloya, quilmach tetlahuelia, teca mocayahua,. of them it was supposed and men said: "they hate people; they mock them." (b.1 f.1 p.19).=20 =20 2. icuac quinchichihuaya, quintlamamaca, *intech* quitlalia in iuhqui inechichihual yiacateuctli.. thereupon they arrayed them; they gave them, they placed upon them array like that of yiacatecutli. (b.1 f.2 p.43).=20 =20 3. auh in intlaaltilhuan, yeccan, quinquetza: moch tlazotilmatli, in *intech* quintlalilia:. and their bathed ones they set up in a good place, all in costly mantles, which they placed upon them. (b.1 f.2 p.43).=20 =20 4. iuh mitoa, ca no *intech* pohui in tlaloque:. it is said that he also belonged among the tlalocs. (b.1 f.2 p.45).=20 =20 5. no inhuan pohui, *intech* tlamiloya in tlaloque:. [the tepictoton] also belonged among, were reckoned among the tlalocs. (b.1 f.2 p.47).=20 =20 6. ca intla tlaca intla onca inyollo, intla onca intlacaquiliz: in itlachihualhuan dios, *intech* canazquia, intech quicuizquia, in iximachocatzin dios;. for if men in their hearts, in their understanding, knew god's creations, from them they would have derived, they would have grasped, their knowledge of god. (b.1 f.3 p.56).=20 =20 7. ca intla tlaca intla onca inyollo, intla onca intlacaquiliz: in itlachihualhuan dios, intech canazquia, *intech* quicuizquia, in iximachocatzin dios;. for if men in their hearts, in their understanding, knew god's creations, from them they would have derived, they would have grasped, their knowledge of god. (b.1 f.3 p.56).=20 =20 8. zan *intech* omotlapololtique in itlachihualhuan dios: oquimoteotique in tletl, in atl, in ehecatl, in tonatiuh, in metztli, in cicitlalti;. only they were in confusion as to god's creatures; they worshipped as gods the fire, the water, the wind, the sun, the moon, the stars. (b.1 f.3 p.56).=20 =20 9. c. in tlateotocanime, in icuac *intech* tlacuauhtlamati, in inteohuan, zan no atle impan quimitta,. c. the idolaters, when they put faith in the favor of their gods, do not esteem them. (b.1 f.3 p.60).=20 =20 10. inin teotlatolli, in ixquichtin momaquixtiznequi, cenca *intech* monequi, in yollocopa quineltocazque: yehica ca dios itlatoltzin, ca tlanextli, ca ocotl.. this word of god, which all desire in order to be saved, is greatly required by all who willingly believe in it, because the word of god is a light; it is a torch. (b.1 f.4 p.63).=20 =20 11. in yehuantin in ointlahueliltic, in quimicnotlatlauhtiaya, in imixpan tlalcuaya, in diablosme: ihuan in imixiptlahuan inic quimitlaniliaya, in tlein *intech* monequia:. unhappy are those who prayed humbly to them, who kissed the earth in the presence of the devils and their representations in order to ask what they required. (b.1 f.4 p.64).=20 =20 12. in iuh quichihuaya hi, ca ic quinmahuiztiliaya in inyaohuan, in intecocolicahuan, in intetolinicahua: in atle *intech* monequi mahuizzotl, in atle intech momonequi tetlazotlaliztli:. such they did in order to pay honor to their adversaries, their enemies, those who ill-treated them --who required no honor, who required no love. (b.1 f.4 p.64).=20 =20 13. in iuh quichihuaya hi, ca ic quinmahuiztiliaya in inyaohuan, in intecocolicahuan, in intetolinicahua: in atle intech monequi mahuizzotl, in atle *intech* momonequi tetlazotlaliztli:. such they did in order to pay honor to their adversaries, their enemies, those who ill-treated them --who required no honor, who required no love. (b.1 f.4 p.64).=20 =20 14. oticmochihuilitzino, in ixquich in cualli, in yectli in *intech* ca in motlachihualtzitzinhuan: inic mochi techpalehuiz in titlaca:. thou hast made all that is good, proper, in thy creatures, so that it will be of advantage to us. (b.1 f.4 p.66).=20 =20 15. no ihuan *intech* tlamiloya in tlalloque, in teilaquiliztli, tlahuitequiliztli:. also to the tlalocs were attributed drownings, thunderbolts. (b.1 f.4 p.68).=20 =20 16. no ihuan in cenca tlaelittaloni, in tlateotocanime: in itocatzin dios ipalnemoani, *intech* oquitlalique, in oquichti, in cihua: in miquini, in palanini, in amo cualli innemiliz, in amo cualli inyollo.. also were the idolaters much to be abhorred [because] they placed the name of god, through whom there is life, upon men, upon women, who were mortals, whose lives were evil, whose hearts were evil. (b.1 f.4 p.69).=20 =20 17. in chacuachihui, in cuazahuati, in xotzayani, in tentzayani, in ixtetezonahui, in icxitzayani: ihuan in cualocatl, *intech* motlalia, in tlaxcalicihuiztli.. those applied it to themselves who had head sores, who had pimples on the head, who had cracks on the feet, cracked lips, chapped faces, and jigger fleas; [also] the tortilla-sickness. (b.1 f.5 p.71).=20 =20 18. in *intech* in in intoca, in tlazolteteo, quicui in intoca in amochpochhuan cequintin quimotocayotia, tiacapan, cequintin teicui, cequintin tlaco, cequinti xocotzin.. from these, the names of the goddesses of filth, your young girls have taken their names --some have been named tiacapan, some teicu, some tlaco, some xocotzin. (b.1 f.5 p.71).=20 =20 19. *intech* tlamiloya, quilmach tetlahueliaya, teca mocacayahuaya,. it was an attribute of theirs, it was said, that they were angered by men; they tricked men. (b.1 f.5 p.72).=20 =20 20. mochintin mahuizzotihui, tlacencahualti, tlachichihualti, mochi tlazotlanqui, in *intech* yetiuh, tlazotlantihui,. they all went honored; they were adorned, they were ornamented with all valuable things which went with them. (b.2 f.1 p.44).=20 =20 21. in mochintin tototecti: ic niman *intech* yetiquiza, quintlalochtoca, quinyaochiuhtihui, quimaacitihui, quinmamacuitihui. all the tototecti then set upon [the warriors]; they took after them; they went fighting them; they went capturing them; they went taking them in their hands. (b.2 f.1 p.50).=20 =20 22. quimocuilia *intech* monequi, quicua:. they took away for themselves what they required; they ate them. (b.2 f.3 p.81).=20 =20 23. auh in cequinti aoctle *intech* aci impan tlacotoni, yehuantin in za tetzaucticate, in za tlatzaucticate, in za tlacuitlapiloa,. and there were some to whom nothing came; it broke off with them --those who only came last after the others, who were only last, who only hung on at the tail [of the line]. (b.2 f.5 p.97).=20 =20 24. auh in ichpopochti in *intech* pohui chichicomecoa: motenehua, cihuatlamacazque:. and the maidens who belonged with the chicome coatl [priests] were known as offering priestesses. (b.2 f.7 p.124).=20 =20 25. niman ic quimehuitia, *intech* yetiquiza, quintoca, tlacahuacatiuh.. then she sent them forth; she set after them; she pursued them; she went crying war cries. (b.2 f.7 p.125).=20 =20 26. mochi yancuic, in *intech* quitlaliaya in incue, in inhuipil,. all new were their shifts, their skirts, which they had put on them. (b.2 f.8 p.133).=20 =20 27. inic iuh quichihua i, quilmach ompa *intech* monequiz in ompa yazque, in icuac miquiz ompa quihualchiaz.. for this reason they thus did it: it was said that they would be required there where they were to go; when they died, [these things] would await them there. (b.2 f.8 p.138).=20 =20 28. in onacxoyatlaliaya, zan pepetlauhtihui, atle *intech* huetztiuh,. when they were laying down the fir [branches], they went quite naked; nothing went on them. (b.2 f.8 p.140).=20 =20 29. *intech* quitlalique in imamatlatqui, in anecoyotl, intzitzicaz, amatitech pipilcac, tlacuilolli, ihuan in coyolli incotztitech quiilpique,. on them [selves] they placed their paper array, the paper crowns, their nettles hanging from the painted papers; and they bound little bells to the calves of their legs. (b.3 f.1 p.3).=20 =20 30. ca cenca *intech* motlapalo in quintocac.. he was very bold against them as he took after them. (b.3 f.1 p.4).=20 =20 31. auh in molquitl, amo *intech* monequia, zan ic temazcallatiaya,. the maize rejects they did not need; they only burned them [to heat] the sweat baths with them. (b.3 f.2 p.14).=20 =20 32. auh in, i, tonalamatl oc cenca ye melahuac, ic motocayotiz, nahuallotl, ca nahualti *intech* pohuia.. and this book of days is more correctly called sorcery, for it belonged to the sorcerers. (b.4 f.1 p.1).=20 =20 33. *intech* quicahuaya, intech quipiloaya in tiacahuan, yaopan concahuaya:. they entrusted it to and sent it in the charge of brave chieftains, who left it at the battlefield. (b.4 f.1 p.3).=20 =20 34. intech quicahuaya, *intech* quipiloaya in tiacahuan, yaopan concahuaya:. they entrusted it to and sent it in the charge of brave chieftains, who left it at the battlefield. (b.4 f.1 p.3).=20 =20 35. auh za ompa cana tepal quicnopilhuia, in *intech* monequi ipilhuan, inic ihiyocuizque,. but somewhere by the intercession of others, he secured that which his children needed to eat. (b.4 f.2 p.17).=20 =20 36. auh in teyacanqui, in teyacanani, mitotiani, motlaquitotiani, tlamoyauhqui, tozcacuecuechoani, tocuilechoani, tlacocoloani: moch yehuan *intech* pohuia, intech acia, in mitoa:. and the leaders and conductors of the dance, the dancers, those who urged the dancers on, those who distributed them, those with trembling voices, those who made noises like a weasel; the circle dancers, and all who belonged and worked with those mentioned. (b.4 f.3 p.26).=20 =20 37. auh in teyacanqui, in teyacanani, mitotiani, motlaquitotiani, tlamoyauhqui, tozcacuecuechoani, tocuilechoani, tlacocoloani: moch yehuan intech pohuia, *intech* acia, in mitoa:. and the leaders and conductors of the dance, the dancers, those who urged the dancers on, those who distributed them, those with trembling voices, those who made noises like a weasel; the circle dancers, and all who belonged and worked with those mentioned. (b.4 f.3 p.26).=20 =20 38. oncan motenehua in izquitlamantli in amo cualli *intech* ca. here are told all the various kinds of evil which belonged with [the day signs]. (b.4 f.5 p.48).=20 =20 39. inic matlactli on nahui capitulo: itechpa tlatoa, in cualli, tonalli: in *intech* ca in nauhtetl calli: in ipan in machiotl,. fourteenth chapter, which telleth of the good day signs which correspond to the four houses in this sign; (b.4 f.6 p.51).=20 =20 40. centlamic quimattica, quicentlamitica, oyaque in *intech* oatlamatia, in intech ocuecuenotia, in oquimonpopoaya, in ixco oquinmanaya, in oquitepehuitinenca, in ocololhuitinenca, in oquitetepehuiaya, ocoololhuyaya, oquimomactocac, omonelchiuh,. gone were those who had made them proud and esteemed, those received in payment, as offerings; those who had lived together, assembled, gathered, united, esteemed, appropriated. (b.4 f.6 p.54).=20 =20 41. centlamic quimattica, quicentlamitica, oyaque in intech oatlamatia, in *intech* ocuecuenotia, in oquimonpopoaya, in ixco oquinmanaya, in oquitepehuitinenca, in ocololhuitinenca, in oquitetepehuiaya, ocoololhuyaya, oquimomactocac, omonelchiuh,. gone were those who had made them proud and esteemed, those received in payment, as offerings; those who had lived together, assembled, gathered, united, esteemed, appropriated. (b.4 f.6 p.54).=20 =20 42. *intech* ontzopi,. they were forced to pay. (b.4 f.7 p.71).=20 =20 43. niman ic quicuania zan ic concuitimani, ic conicuanitimani, *intech* pohui in calpolhuehuetque, quimoxexelhuia, quimomamaca, quecizquican quimicuanilia,. then the old men of the temple district [of uitzilopochtli] removed, continued to take and transport, divided, and distributed, what pertained to them. they removed it to a number of places. (b.4 f.8 p.78).=20 =20 44. moch *intech* aciz, in nemactiz, in ixquich ic otlatequililoque, in chieltilo, inin ca oitoloc,. all which they came by and received as gifts, all the things which had been set aside and placed apart [by the host]--this hath been told. (b.4 f.11 p.121).=20 =20 45. hualaquetza onmocuaahayohuia: ic ommotonallalilia: inic *intech* oacca mahuiztli:. they raised their heads and revived their spirits; for their fates were so established that fear should no longer be with them. (b.5 f.1 p.155).=20 =20 46. ihcuac in ye huecahua, tlein oquitocaque: mochi yehuan *intech* tlami in tecocoliani, in temiquitlanini, in temiquiztemachique, in temiquiztemachiani, in tehueiyecoani, in atlaca in tlatlacatecolo: in motenehua, tepoloani. when the ones which had been buried remained, they always were attributed to the enemy, who would have one dead, who wished one to perish--who hoped one would die; those of great lust; inhuman; demons, the so-called destroyers of men. (b.5 f.2 p.173).=20 =20 47. ic ce capitulo, oncan mitoa: in tlatolli in huel inyollo *intech* quizaya: in quitoaya: in ihcuac quitlatlauhtiaya, in huei inteouh catca, in yehuatl tezcatlipoca: anozo titlacahua: anozo yaotl: in ihcuac cocoliztli momanaya, inic quipopoloz.. first chapter. here are told the words which truly issued from their hearts when they spoke, at the time that they supplicated him who was their principal god, the one [who was] tezcatlipoca, or titlacauan, or yaotl, at the time that a plague prevailed, that he might destroy it. (b.6 f.1 p.1).=20 =20 48. ic ome capitulo, oncan motenehua: in tlatolli in huel inyollo *intech* quizaya: inic quitlatlauhtiaya tezcatlipoca: in quitocayotiaya yohualli, ehecatl: inic quitlaniliaya necuiltonoliztli, inic amo motolinizque.. second chapter. here are related the words which truly issued from their hearts as they prayed to texcatlipoca, whom they named the night, the wind, as they asked riches, so that they would not be poor. (b.6 f.1 p.7).=20 =20 49. auh manozo ihuian, yocoxca *intech* onaciz in tiacahuan in yaomicque, in tepilhuan: in quitziccuacuatzin, in maceuhcatzin, in tlacahuepantzin, in ixtlilcuechahuac, in ihhuitl temoc in chahuacuetzin: auh in ye mochintin, in ye ixquichtin, in cuauhti in ocelo, in ilhuicatl itic, in ompa cahuiltia in tonatiuh, in xippilli in tiacauh in yaomicqui in ompa coyohuia:. and may they in peace, in repose, arrive among the valiant warriors, those who died in war, the noblemen, quitzicquaquatzin, maceuhcatzin, tlacauepantzin, ixtlilcuechauac, ihuitl temoc, [and] chahuacuetzin; and all, all the several eagle warriors, the ocelot warriors who are in the heavens where they gladden the sun, the turquoise prince, the valiant warrior, the one who died in war--they cry out to him there. (b.6 f.1 p.13).=20 =20 50. in *intech* onaciz, in intech ompohuiz in tiacahuan, in yaomicque, in cuauhtin ocelo: in quinamiqui, in cahuiltia in totonametl in xippilli:. "they will arrive among, will belong with the valiant warriors, those who died in war, the eagle warriors, the ocelot warriors who receive, who gladden the resplendent one, the turquoise prince." (b.6 f.2 p.15).=20 =20 51. in intech onaciz, in *intech* ompohuiz in tiacahuan, in yaomicque, in cuauhtin ocelo: in quinamiqui, in cahuiltia in totonametl in xippilli:. "they will arrive among, will belong with the valiant warriors, those who died in war, the eagle warriors, the ocelot warriors who receive, who gladden the resplendent one, the turquoise prince." (b.6 f.2 p.15).=20 =20 52. auh ca nelle axcan, ca *intech* oonacic ca oquimonma in iachcocolhuan, in itechiuhcahuan in ye nachca onmantihui, in oyecoco in petlapan, in icpalpan in teteucti, in tlatoque: in tlacatl in acamapichtli, in tizocic, in ahuitzotl, in huehue moteuczoma, in axayaca: in nican onicatiuh in moteuczoma in ilhuicamina,. "and verily now he hath approached, he hath known his great-grandfathers, his progenitors, those who had already gone beyond to reside, those who had come to establish the realm--the lords, the rulers, the lord acamapichtli, [and] ti=87oc, auitzotl, ueue motecu=87oma, axayacatl, the one who hath here followed motecu=87oma ilhuicamina. (b.6 f.2 p.22).=20 =20 53. ac ninomati in intlan tinechmicuanilia in *intech* tinechmaxitilia, in intech tinechmopohuilia in motlaiximachhuan, in mocnihuan, in motlapepenalhuan in ilhuileque, in macehualeque:. who do I think I am that thou movest me among, thou bringest me among, thou countest me with thy acquaintances, thy friends, thy chosen ones, those who have desert, those who have merit? (b.6 f.4 p.41).=20 =20 54. ac ninomati in intlan tinechmicuanilia in intech tinechmaxitilia, in *intech* tinechmopohuilia in motlaiximachhuan, in mocnihuan, in motlapepenalhuan in ilhuileque, in macehualeque:. who do I think I am that thou movest me among, thou bringest me among, thou countest me with thy acquaintances, thy friends, thy chosen ones, those who have desert, those who have merit? (b.6 f.4 p.41).=20 =20 55. auh in oncan tiquinmotlamamaquilia, in huel tiquinmocencahuilia, in *intech* timotlatlatlalilia in tiquinmohueililia, in tiquinmohuecapanilhuia in tetepeyotl, in xihuitzolli: auh in nacochtli, in tentetl, in tlalpiloni, in matemecatl, in cotzehuatl, in cozcatl, in quetzalli.. "and there thou dost bequeath them, thou arrayest them with, thou placest upon the, thou honorest them, glorifiest them with the peaked hat, the turquoise diadem, and the earplug, the lip plug, the head band, the arm band, the band for the calf of the leg, the necklace, the precious feather. (b.6 f.4 p.44).=20 =20 56. at *intech* tonaciz in cuauhtin, in ocelo in tiacahuan, in cahuiltia, in coyohuia in tonatiuh, in tiacauh in cuauhtlehuanitl,. perhaps thou wilt arrive by the eagle warriors, the ocelot warriors, the brave warriors who gladden, who cry out to the sun, the valiant warrior, the ascending eagle. (b.6 f.5 p.58).=20 =20 57. inin ye yehuatl in imaxca, in *intech* pouhqui in toteucyohuan, in tlatoque,. this is the property of--it belongeth to--the lords, the rulers. (b.6 f.8 p.95).=20 =20 58. cenca *intech* monequi in telpopochti, in ichpopochti.. it is especially useful for the youths, for the maidens. (b.6 f.8 p.99).=20 =20 59. no huel *intech* neyolcocolo: inic mochi tlacatl quinequi, quitemoa, quelehuia inin miquiztli cenca yectenehualo.. also they are much envied, so that all people desire, seek, long for this death, [for such] are much praised. (b.6 f.10 p.114).=20 =20 60. izca ihuan in cualtin, in yectin: in cualli inyollo, *intech* netlacaneconi,. "behold also the good, the fine, the good of heart, those worthy of confidence. (b.6 f.10 p.116).=20 =20 61. auh inin cihua, amo zan ceceppa in *intech* aci: ahzo quen nanappa, mamacuilpa:. and to these women he hath access not only once with each one, but four or five times with each one, more or less. (b.6 f.10 p.125).=20 =20 62. achtopa yehuantin in mahuiztililoni, in teteuctin, in achcacauhtin, in tequihuaque, ihuan in tlapaliuhcayaca, ihuan in zan huel tlapalihui: in mach huel yehuan, ye *intech* ompohui: niman yehuantin in tiachcahuan, in telpochtlatoque: niman yehuantin in ixquichtin in tehuayolque, in itechcopa oquichtli, ihuan itechcopa cihuatl.. first those who were illustrious, the lords, the captains, the seasoned warriors, and those who guided the groom, and the moderately matured youths, those same among whom [the groom] belonged, and then those who were the masters of the youths, the rulers of the youths; then those who were all the kinsmen of the man and of the woman. (b.6 f.11 p.129).=20 =20 63. in axcan, ca ic *intech* tompachihui in ilamatque: ye toconpehualtia in ilamanemiliztli:. now thou approachest the old women; already thou commencest the life of an old woman. (b.6 f.11 p.130).=20 =20 64. ma *intech* xonmaxiti, ma intlan xonmocalaqui.. arrive with them, enter among them! (b.6 f.14 p.164).=20 =20 65. auh in ixic *intech* quicahuaya tequihuaque, in yaoc matini: inic ompa quitocazque in ixtlahuatl iitic, in oncan mochihuia yaoyotl:. and she entrusted his umbilical cord to the distinguished warriors, those wise in war, to bury it there in the midst of the plains where warfare was practised. (b.6 f.14 p.171).=20 =20 66. cuix huel *intech* aciz, motolinia in macehualli:. perhaps the poor commoner will be able to arrive by them. (b.6 f.16 p.203).=20 =20 67. *intech* tipouhqui in cuauhtin, ocelo, in tiacahuan, in yaomicque in cahuiltia, in coyohuia tonatiuh:. thou belongest with the eagle warriors, with the ocelot warriors, with the valiant warriors, those who died in war, who gladden, who cry out to the sun." (b.6 f.17 p.204).=20 =20 68. ma *intech* xicmopohuili, ma inihuan pohui in tlamaceuhque, in tlamacazque, in motecque.. assign her to -- may she be with -- the penitent, the priestesses, those of cut [hair]. (b.6 f.17 p.210).=20 =20 69. auh inin noxocoyouh, nochpochtzin: ma zan ihuian, ma zan yocoxca xonmohuica: ma *intech* xonmaxiti, ma intech xonmopachihuiti in tlazocihuapipilti, in ichpopochtin in ihueltihuatzitzinhuan toteucyo, in mitoa, motenehua ipitzitzinhuan in tlamaceuhque, in chocani, in tlaocoyani.. and [because of] this, my youngest child, my daughter, go carefully, little by little; arrive with, approach the precious noblewomen, the virgins, the beloved older sisters of our lord, those called, those named the older sisters, the penitents, the weepers, the sad ones. (b.6 f.17 p.217).=20 =20 70. auh inin noxocoyouh, nochpochtzin: ma zan ihuian, ma zan yocoxca xonmohuica: ma intech xonmaxiti, ma *intech* xonmopachihuiti in tlazocihuapipilti, in ichpopochtin in ihueltihuatzitzinhuan toteucyo, in mitoa, motenehua ipitzitzinhuan in tlamaceuhque, in chocani, in tlaocoyani.. and [because of] this, my youngest child, my daughter, go carefully, little by little; arrive with, approach the precious noblewomen, the virgins, the beloved older sisters of our lord, those called, those named the older sisters, the penitents, the weepers, the sad ones. (b.6 f.17 p.217).=20 =20 71. ipampa ca in ye huecauh, in octli *intech* quitlamiliaya in totochtin, in quinmoteotiaya huehuetque.. it is because in times of old, wine was falsely attributed to the rabbits, whom the ancient ones worshipped. (b.6 f.18 p.230).=20 =20 72. inin tlatolli *intech* mitoaya, in aquique in ye onmictilozque in ye ontlecahuilo, inic miquizque:. this saying was said of those who were about to be put to death, who already had been brought up to die: (b.6 f.19 p.242).=20 =20 73. inin tlatolli: *intech* mitoaya in aquique inpallacua, atli pipilti, anozo altepetl: ahzo motlauhtia, anozo in tlein quicua:. this saying was said of those who ate, who drank by the grace of the noblemen or of the city, or they were helped perhaps in that which they ate. (b.6 f.19 p.247).=20 =20 74. *intech* tlamiloya in mixtli, in quiahuitl, in tecihuitl, in cehpayahuitl, in ayahuitl, in tlapetlaniliztli, in tlatlatziniliztl= i, in tehuitequiliztli.. to them were attributed clouds, rain, hail, snow, mist, sheet lightning, thunder, and lightning bolts which struck men. (b.7 f.2 p.18).=20 =20 75. in hualmozcalizque, in hualixtlamatizque, in huallachiazque, ye *intech* ca in intlacoyo,. when they matured, when they gained prudence, when they looked about, already servitude would be upon them. (b.7 f.2 p.24).=20 =20 76. ic cenca momauhtique, in tlaxcalteca, auh in yehuantin, in tlaxcalteca, niman ic tlaihuaque, quinmacato in tlacualli, in ixquich *intech* monequi:. by this were the tlaxcalans much frightened, and these tlaxcalans then sent messengers, [who] went to offer them food and all which they might need. (b.8 f.2 p.21).=20 =20 77. inic chicuei capitulo, oncan mitoa in izquitlamantli: in nechichihuaya tlatoque in pipilti in *intech* quitlaliaya, inic mocencahuaya in tilmatli in maxtlatl.. eighth chapter, in which are told the various articles with which they adorned the rulers and noblemen---which they placed on them when they were bedight in capes and breech clouts. (b.8 f.2 p.23).=20 =20 78. auh in ihcuac itla quinmachilia in tlatoani, ahzo tlahuanaliztli, anozo nemecatiliztli, anozo itla icampa quiquixtia, in tlatoani: in amo itencopa, itla quitetequitia in calla ahzo atl, tlacualli tequipan yecahui, moyocoya, quitetequitia inic *intech* monequi, niman tlanahuatia in tlatoani, cuauhcalco quintlalia,. and when the ruler knew something ill of them--either drunkenness or concubinage; or that they wrought something to their advantage behind the back of the ruler; [or] that without his command they levied tribute on the town, perchance of chocolate, or of food, which became a tribute, and it was done without leave, and [that] they exacted as tribute whatsoever they wished, then the ruler commanded that they be jailed in wooden cages. (b.8 f.3 p.43).=20 =20 79. in quinpaquiltia, in quintlauhtia, ihuan in quinmaca, in ixquich *intech* monequi:. he gave them contentment and he gave them gifts; he bestowed upon them whatsoever they needed. (b.8 f.3 p.54).=20 =20 80. auh im pipilti in ihcuac tlaotlamahqz. amo motecozauhaltia, zan tlauhtica mohzaya quicemaque in nohuia *intech*. auh mopotonia cuauhtlachcayotica.. and the noblemen, when they had taken some captives, did not anoint themselves with yellow but rather stained themselves with red ochre, which they put on all over; and they were pasted with eagle down. (b.8 f.5 p.83).=20 =20 81. auh izcatqui in zan imixcoyan intlatqui pochteca, inic onoztomecati, onteconenemi, tepeyo, teocuitlatl: iuhquin tlatocayotl, ihuan teocuitlaixcuaamatl, ihuan chayahuac cozcatl, teocuitlatl, ihuan teocuitlanacochtli, ihuan teocuitlatl tlatzacualoni, *intech* monequi in anahuacacihua: yehuantin in cihuapipilti, ic quitzacua in innacayo, ihuan in maxitlaztli, in itoca matzatzaztli, ihuan teocuitlanacochtli, ihuan tehuilonacochtli.. and behold what were the goods exclusively of the merchants, those in which they dealt as vanguard merchants, [as] reconnoiterers: golden mountain-shaped mitres, like royal crowns; and golden forehead rosettes; and golden necklaces of radiating pendants; and golden ear plugs; and golden covers used by women of anauac--with these the princesses covered their bodies; and rings for the fingers, called matzatzaztli; and golden ear plugs; and rock crystal ear plugs. (b.9 f.1 p.8).=20 =20 82. auh in zan macehualti *intech* monequi: yehuatl in itznacochtli, amochitl, ihuan itztlaehualli neximaloni, ihuan huitzauhqui itztli, ihuan tochomitl, ihuan huitzmallotl, ihuan coyolli.. and the things used by the common folk were obsidian ear plugs, [or] tin, and obsidian razors with leather handles, and pointed obsidian blades, and rabbit fur, and needles for sewing, and shells. (b.9 f.1 p.8).=20 =20 83. auh izcatqui in *intech* monequia cihuapipilti: teocuitlatzahualcaxitl, ihuan teocuitlanacochtli, ihuan tehuilonacochtli.. and these were what the princesses required: golden bowls for spindles, and ear plugs of gold and of rock crystal. (b.9 f.2 p.18).=20 =20 84. auh in za macehualti *intech* monequia: itznacochtli, tepoznacochtli: ihuan itztlaehualli neximaloni: ihuan huitzauhqui ihuan coyolli, ihuan huitzmallotl: nocheztli, tlalxocotl, tochomitl, tlacopatli, xochipatli.. but those who were only commoners required obsidian ear plugs, copper ear plugs, and razors of obsidian with leather handles, and pointed obsidian blades, and shells, and needles; [and] cochineal, alum, rabbit fur, birthwort, [and] cosmos sulphureus. (b.9 f.2 p.18).=20 =20 85. inic concuia in ixquich omoteneuh in apozonalli, tezzacatl, mochihuaya ihuan tencolli, in *intech* monequia in huehuei oquichti, in huehuei tiacahuan, in aocmo quimacacia yaoyotl ; in aoc tle ipan quittaya, in ohuel imixmacic, in iuh yaotihua, in iuh tetlamaltilo.. for it, they secured all that hath been mentioned: amber, of which were made the labrets and curved lip plugs which the great warriors, the great chieftains required--those who no longer dreaded war; who scorned it; who knew well how war was waged, how captives were taken. (b.9 f.2 p.22).=20 =20 86. in ihcuac ye *intech* quiza nanacatl, in oncan mitotia, oncan choca:. when the mushrooms took effect on them, then they danced, then they wept. (b.9 f.4 p.39).=20 =20 87. o yehuantin i in *intech* monequi in quintlauhtiaya tealti.. to these the bather of slaves gave gifts according to their liking. (b.9 f.4 p.47).=20 =20 88. cuezcontica quiquehquetzaya: *intech* monequia in ixquichtin quipalehuiaya, inic amo apizmiquizque: inic tlaiya, inic tlaihualhuia, pochteca caxitl inic temacoya atolli ayohuachpani:. using bins he placed about all things required to assist them, that they might not go hungry, that they might drink--that there would be what all might drink; [and] merchants' vessels in which atole topped with squash seeds might be served. (b.9 f.4 p.48).=20 =20 89. mochi on oncan contlalia in ixpan iyacateuctli inic oncan ittoz, in iuhqui *intech* quitlalizque tlaaltilti,. he placed all there before [the image of] yacatecutli, so that it might be seen there what he would place on the bathed ones. (b.9 f.4 p.51).=20 =20 90. niman iciuhca quicencahua, in *intech* monequiz, in pochtecatlatoque, in nahualoztomeca:. then he quickly prepared what would be required for the principal merchants, the disguised merchants. (b.9 f.5 p.55).=20 =20 91. yehuatl in quinmaca in omoteneuh, in *intech* pohui in nahualoztomeca, in amanepaniuhqui, ihuan tlazomaxtlatl yacahuiyac.. he gave them the things [already] mentioned which pertained to the disguised merchants: capes with plaited paper ornaments and precious breech clouts with long ends. (b.9 f.5 p.55).=20 =20 92. quinmaca in *intech* pohui in tilmatli, in maxtlatl, in cueitl in huipilli, in cuetentli, conaquia in itenco:. he gave them what pertained to them: the capes, the breech clouts, the skirts, the shifts along whose borders they had placed the trimming. (b.9 f.5 p.59).=20 =20 93. in nahuintin i, iuh quitoa, ca yehuatl *intech* quitlamiaya in toltecayotl ;. to these four [gods], so they said, they attributed the art [of the lapidary]. (b.9 f.6 p.80).=20 =20 94. inic ontlamantli imonecca: cihua *intech* monequi quicuacua in chapopotli.. as its second use, it is used by women; they chew the bitumen. (b.10 f.5 p.89).=20 =20 95. no yehuantin *intech* monequi in ye huel cihua in ye huel ichpopochti: ihuan mochin in cihua, in ichpopochti mixmana in tziccuacua.. also the mature women, the unmarried women use it; and all the women who [are] unmarried chew chicle in public. (b.10 f.5 p.89).=20 =20 96. inic cempoalli on chicome capitulo: intechpa tlatoa in cuitlaxcolli, ihuan in ixquich tehitic onoc, ihuan in ixquich pani onoc, huihuilteccayotl, in totech cah, in toquichti, ihuan in cihua *intech* cah.. Twenty-seventh chapter, which telleth of the intestines, and of all the internal organs, and of all the external organs, [and] of the joints pertaining to men and pertaining to women. (b.10 f.6 p.95a).=20 =20 97. xopilli *intech* tlahuicollotilo. it is looped to toes (b.10 f.7 p.127b).=20 =20 98. zan *intech* man, intech quiz, in intoca, in innemiliz, in intlachihual. their name is taken from -it comes from -their manner of life, their works. (b.10 f.10 p.165).=20 =20 99. zan intech man, *intech* quiz, in intoca, in innemiliz, in intlachihual. their name is taken from -it comes from -their manner of life, their works. (b.10 f.10 p.165).=20 =20 100. auh huel quimatia in quen yauh in ilhuicatl in quenin momalacachoa, *intech* quittaya in cicitlalti:. and they understood well the movements of the heavens; their orbits they learned from the stars. (b.10 f.10 p.168).=20 =20 101. no achitzitzin, tzotzomatzintli, tatapatzintli *intech* quitlalia:. also they put on a few rags --tattered capes. (b.10 f.10 p.171).=20 =20 102. no ihui in mochichihua in ye mochintin chichimeca: zan amo quicui, amo *intech* pohui in tecuanehuatl, in tecuanicpalli: zan mazayehuatzintli, coyoyehuatzintli, oztoyehuatzintli, oztoyehuatl, techaloyehuatl. etc.. also likewise were arrayed all the [teo] chichimeca, only they took not the wild animal skins, the wild animal seats --they did not belong to them: only small deer skins, small coyote skins, small grey fox skins, grey fox skins, squirrel skins, etc. (b.10 f.10 p.173).=20 =20 103. inin yetlamanixtin i, tlacaciuhque *intech* ca in tlacanemiliztli,. these three were peaceful; the way of life which corresponded to them, civilized. (b.10 f.10 p.175).=20 =20 104. huel *intech* ca in ixquich ixtlamatiliztli, in nematiliztli, ihuan in toltecayotl,. in them were all prudence, industry, and craftmanship. (b.10 f.11 p.176).=20 =20 105. inique i, otomi, *intech* ca in tlacanemiliztli. these otomi had a civilized way of life. (b.10 f.11 p.176).=20 =20 106. in otomi: cenca topalme, xacanme, quitoznequi: in tlein tilmatli, tlaquemitl tetonal: mochi quicui, mochi *intech* quitlalia inic xacanme,. the otomi were very gaudy dressers --vain people; that is to say, what there were of capes, of clothing, which were one's special privilege, they took all, they wore all, to be vain people. (b.10 f.11 p.178).=20 =20 107. amo moyectlalpilia, ic *intech* mitoa. can mach mito, ac mach mitztocayoti in totomitl. it was not worn in good taste; thus of them was said: "hath it possibly been said that someone called thee an otomi? (b.10 f.11 p.179).=20 =20 108. auh inic topalti, inic xacanme, inic otomi: in ilamatoton oc no mixcuatequi, oc no moxoxocolxima, oc no motlamiahua, oc moxahua, oc mopotonia in tlapalihhuitica, oc no *intech* quitlalia in tlamachcueitl, in tlamachhuipilli.. and as gaudy dressers, as vain as the [other] otomi, were the old women, who still also cut the hair over the forehead; who still also cut the hair on one side, leaving the other side long; who still also darkened their teeth, still painted their faces, still pasted themselves with red feathers; who still also put on the embroidered skirts, the embroidered shifts. (b.10 f.11 p.179).=20 =20 109. inique in, huel *intech* ca in tlacayotl, in tlacanemiliztli:. to these corresponded a humane, civilized life. (b.10 f.11 p.184).=20 =20 110. ihuan no *intech* tlacalehualo in otomi,. and also they were reckoned among the otomi people. (b.10 f.11 p.186).=20 =20 111. ihuan quimihua in achcacauhti, chicahuaque, in tiacahuan in ipan tlatozque in ixquich *intech* monequiz in cualoni in totoli in totoltetl, in iztac tlaxcalli: ihuan in tlein quitlanizque,. and he sent the elders, the hardy [warriors], the brave [warriors] to secure [for the spaniards] all the food they would need: turkey hens, eggs, white tortillas, and what they might desire. (b.12 f.2 p.21).=20 =20 112. niman ic tetlacuauhnahuati in moteuczoma, huel quincocolti, huel quintenizti, quinmiquiznahuati in calpixque: auh in ixquich in teuctli, in achcauhtli in quittazque, in quimocuitlahuizque in ixquich *intech* monequiz.. then moctezuma sternly commanded, charged, enjoined, ordered on pain of death the stewards and all the lords, the elders, to see to, to care for everything [the spaniards] might need. (b.12 f.2 p.23).=20 =20 113. in za mocuitlacueptinemi in titlanti, in ipan ontlatoa in izquitlamantli, in izquican icac in *intech* monequiz.. the emissaries, those who had interceded for them for everything, everywhere, that they might need, just went, turning their backs. (b.12 f.2 p.25).=20 =20 114. auh cenca *intech* moyollaliaya intech huel catca iyollo, intech tlacuauhtlamatia: cequintin quimomachiztiaya, in quitoaya. ca ommati in mictlan, ihuan tonatiuh ichan, ihuan tlalocan ihuan cincalco inic ompatiz in campa ye huel motlanequiliz.. and of those whom he much unburdened himself to, confided in, held especially easy conversation with some told what they knew; they said: " [some] know where mictlan is, and tonatiuh ichan, and tlalocan, and cincalco, that one may be benefited. [determine] in what place indeed is thy need." (b.12 f.2 p.26).=20 =20 115. auh cenca intech moyollaliaya *intech* huel catca iyollo, intech tlacuauhtlamatia: cequintin quimomachiztiaya, in quitoaya. ca ommati in mictlan, ihuan tonatiuh ichan, ihuan tlalocan ihuan cincalco inic ompatiz in campa ye huel motlanequiliz.. and of those whom he much unburdened himself to, confided in, held especially easy conversation with some told what they knew; they said: " [some] know where mictlan is, and tonatiuh ichan, and tlalocan, and cincalco, that one may be benefited. [determine] in what place indeed is thy need." (b.12 f.2 p.26).=20 =20 116. auh cenca intech moyollaliaya intech huel catca iyollo, *intech* tlacuauhtlamatia: cequintin quimomachiztiaya, in quitoaya. ca ommati in mictlan, ihuan tonatiuh ichan, ihuan tlalocan ihuan cincalco inic ompatiz in campa ye huel motlanequiliz.. and of those whom he much unburdened himself to, confided in, held especially easy conversation with some told what they knew; they said: " [some] know where mictlan is, and tonatiuh ichan, and tlalocan, and cincalco, that one may be benefited. [determine] in what place indeed is thy need." (b.12 f.2 p.26).=20 =20 117. quinmacaque in *intech* monequi inca mochiuhque. they gave them whatsoever they required; they attended to them. (b.12 f.2 p.29).=20 =20 118. auh in otlathuic, niman ye ic motzatzilia in ixquich *intech* monequi, in iztac tlaxcalli, totollalehuatzalli, totoltetl, chipahuac atl, in cuahuitl, in tlatlatilcuahuitl, in tecolli, in apaztli, in petzcaxitl, in apilloli, in tzotzocolli, in tlatzoyonilcaxitl, in ye ixquich in zoquitlatquitl:. and when it dawned, thereupon were proclaimed all the things which [the spaniards] required: white tortillas, roasted turkey hens, eggs, fresh water, wood, firewood, charcoal, earthen bowls, polished vessels, water jars, large water pitchers, cooking vessels, all manner of clay articles. (b.12 f.3 p.45).=20 =20 119. moch *intech* compachoque moch conmotechtique, moch conmotonaltique.. they possessed themselves of all, they appropriated all to themselves, they took all to themselves as their lot. (b.12 f.3 p.48).=20 =20 120. tel amo ic mocahua, amo ic netzotzonalo in concahua in ixquich *intech* monequi, za in mauhcac in concahuaya,. yet not because of this did they stop; not for this was there hesitation in leaving what [the spaniards] required, but they left it in fear. (b.12 f.3 p.50).=20 =20 121. auh niman ye ic quimicahuatztihui, quimololhuitihui, *intech* icatihui in mexica, quimaantihui in tlaxcalteca ihuan in espa=A4oles mictihui:. and thereupon the mexicans went roaring at them, they went surrounding them, took after them; they went taking numbers of the tlaxcallans, and the spaniards they went slaying. (b.12 f.5 p.68).=20 =20 122. aocmo *intech* onaci, za huecapa quimitztihui za quinhuecapahuitihui, za quinnachcapahuitihui.. not yet did they come up to them; they only remained facing them from afar, they only went dealing with them from there. (b.12 f.5 p.72).=20 =20 123. *intech* motlahuelquixtique, intech mellelquixtique.. (the spaniards] vented their wrath upon them, they took their pleasure with them. (b.12 f.5 p.72).=20 =20 124. intech motlahuelquixtique, *intech* mellelquixtique.. (the spaniards] vented their wrath upon them, they took their pleasure with them. (b.12 f.5 p.72).=20 =20 125. auh intla za acame motlapaloa in *intech* onaci, iuhquin aquim ontlatoltia in quinhualixili,. and if besides any [mexicans] dared go among them as if to interrogate them, [the spaniards] speared them. (b.12 f.5 p.77).=20 =20 126. inic cempoalli on chicome capitulo oncan mitoa in quenin mexica *intech* acito in espa=A4oles inic quintepotztocaya.. twenty-seventh chapter, in which it is told how the mexicans came to reach the spaniards in order to follow them at the rear. (b.12 f.5 p.78).=20 =20 127. auh in cequintin zan huehueca in *intech* motlali in zahuatl, amo cenca quimihioti, amo no miequintin ic micque:. and on some, each pustule was placed on them only far apart; they did not cause much suffering, neither did many die of them. (b.12 f.6 p.82).=20 =20 128. moch quincuilique in inyaotlatqui, ihuan in imichcahuipil, ihuan in ixquich in *intech* catca, moch quintepehualtique:. they took from them all their battle gear and their quilted cotton armor, all which was on them; they completely disrobed them. (b.12 f.7 p.97).=20 =20 129. auh in tzilacatzin, ihuan oc cequintin tiacahuan: in oquimittaque in espa=A4oles: niman *intech* hualyetiquizque,. and tzilacatzin and still other brave warriors, when they saw the spaniards, then quickly went forward against them. (b.12 f.7 p.97).=20 =20 130. auh in tiacahuan *intech* motlapaloque quintocaqueh:. and the brave warriors were fearless against them; they pursued them. (b.12 f.7 p.105).=20 =20 131. auh cencan iyolic *intech* xocotihui, intech caltechpachotihui.. and it was very slowly that (the spaniards) went repulsing them; they went pressing them back against the houses. (b.12 f.7 p.114).=20 =20 132. auh cencan iyolic intech xocotihui, *intech* caltechpachotihui.. and it was very slowly that (the spaniards) went repulsing them; they went pressing them back against the houses. (b.12 f.7 p.114).=20 =20 133. niman ic quintepotztique, zan moch yehuantin in tiyacahuan, ihuan in pipiltin, *intech* yetiquizque nec imicampa quintepotztique,. When all the brave warriors and the noblemen pursued them, emerged against them, then pursued them at their rear guard. (b.12 f.7 p.114).=20 =20 134. amo zan tlalpan anquimayahuizque cenca *intech* in anquitlazazque:. you will not just drop it on the ground; you will cast it strongly at them. (b.12 f.8 p.118).=20 =20 135. zan moch tzotzomatli in *intech* quitlalique.. it was all only rags that they put on themselves. (b.12 f.8 p.122).=20 From jrader at m-w.com Mon Nov 29 15:36:16 1999 From: jrader at m-w.com (Jim Rader) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:36:16 -0700 Subject: Varmints (Re: Does anyone know these?...) Message-ID: A bit off the Nahuatl topic, but the word variously spelled "memaloose," "memaloost," "mimaloos," etc., in Chinook Jargon means "dead." There are several Memaloose Islands in the Columbia River --the ones I find references to are near the town of Hood River in Oregon, not that far from Mt. Hood. The word "memaloose" in place names supposedly refers to Indian burial grounds, which makes sense for these islands, because the Repatriation Office website of the National Museum of Natural History inventories skeletal remains found there. Not to question Mr. Montchalin's recollection, but I can't imagine how this word got applied to an animal (and I can't find any written records of its use in Nexis or our own files). The animal he describes sounds like a marmot, but I'm not at all familiar with the Mt. Hood area and couldn't say if marmots live there. One Nahuatl bird name that's taken a strange turn is , which FK's dictionary defines as Herpetotheres cochinans, the usual vernacular name for which is the Laughing Falcon. Somehow this name got applied the the hoatzin, the international vernacular name for Opisthocomos hoazin, a totally unrelated and dissimilar bird of the Amazon basin, hundreds if not thousands of miles from Mesoamerica. I've never tried to figure how this zoological scramble took place. Just as a matter of curiosity, is described in the Florentine Codex? Jim Rader > What are the differences between these animals? Does any one of them come > close to the memaloose found in the Mt. Hood National Forest in Oregon? > Memalooses are bigger than rats, about a foot to a yard in height, sit > back on their haunches, and have opposable thumbs just like monkeys or > possums do. They like to cry out 'mee!' and this might be why they are > called me[e]malooses. They are capable of getting into your backpacks and > would just as soon steal cookies and fruit juice from you if you don't > keep them at bay by throwing rocks at them. I think they are either > omnivorous or vegetarian, and tend to live in troops of about a dozen or > more at once, mostly making their homes in rockpiles in the high cascades. > They are probably related to the white prairie dog of southeastern Oregon, > but instead of living in the plains like to live in higher elevations. > > From ibarrara at servidor.unam.mx Mon Nov 29 15:52:05 1999 From: ibarrara at servidor.unam.mx (H-Mexico Moderadores (by way of "John F. Schwaller" )) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:52:05 -0700 Subject: Novedades: P. Saurin: Teocuicatl - Cantos sagrados Message-ID: VIENT DE PARAITRE aux Editions Scientifiques du Museum Diffusion : Delphine Henry e.mail : dhenry at mnhn.fr TEOCUICATL Chants sacr=E9s des anciens Mexicains Patrick Saurin 280p., 290F Premi=E8re traduction en fran=E7ais des "chants divins" recueillis au XVI=E8= me si=E8cle par le franciscain Fray Bernardino de Sahagundes dans la vall=E9e= de Tepepulco et conserv=E9s dans le Codex du Palais Royal de Madrid. Communiquer avec les dieux et les atteindre devait =EAtre l'objectif conf=E9= r=E9 =E0 ces hymnes par les anciens Mexicains. L'auteur, sp=E9cialiste des des civilisations du Mexique ancien et de l'interpr=E9tation des textes en langue nahuatl, s'attache =E0 expliciter= "le dit et le dire" de ces chants qui repr=E9sentent selon lui "une des sources de toute premi=E8re importance pour comprendre la pens=E9e religieuse et la cosmologie des anciens Mexicains".=20 ______________________ Marie-Christine Lacoste, CNRS, Information GRAL (Groupe de Recherche sur l'Am=E9rique Latine) Maison de la Recherche, Universit=E9 de Toulouse-le-Mirail 5, All=E9es Antonio Machado - 31058 Toulouse Cedex (France) e.mail : lacoste at univ-tlse2.fr Tel. : 33 (0)5 61 50 43 08 Fax : 33 (0)5 61 50 49 25 http://www.univ-tlse2.fr/amlat "RUMBOS" Lista Electronica de Informacion Cientifica (y Revista de Prensa) : Investigacion sobre y de America Latina, Ciencias Humanas y Sociales, Desarrollo Rural y Urbano, Convocatorias, Publicaciones, Actualidades... (Lenguas de la lista : Espanol, Frances, Ingles, Portugues) Copyright : GRAL, CNRS/UTM, Toulouse From jcoonan at kvlaw.com Mon Nov 29 15:55:05 1999 From: jcoonan at kvlaw.com (James S. Coonan (by way of "John F. Schwaller" )) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:55:05 -0700 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Languages Message-ID: I am looking for a 'family tree' of the Uto-Aztecan languages, showing estimated time depth of splits, reflecting as near as possible the current state of research (or else text from which I can draw the chart). I would prefer an extensive chart, that is one showing as many languages as possible, not simply representative members. Thank you. Jim Coonan Atlanta, Georgia From ochoa at scd.hp.com Mon Nov 29 16:10:08 1999 From: ochoa at scd.hp.com (Marcos Ochoa) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:10:08 -0700 Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin Message-ID: Hello All, I am wondering if there is a list of english and/or spanish words that are strictly nahuatl in origin. I think chili and chocolate are two of the examples. Thank You, -Marcos Romero-Ochoa From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu Mon Nov 29 16:38:03 1999 From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:38:03 -0700 Subject: o Message-ID: Joe, thanks for the data. It seems I was wrong about the "o" in that passage we discussed about a week ago. After looking over the sentences you sent, it looks like they did place the past tense marker "o" before phrases such as "imac", followed by a verb which could have a directional "on" as well (for example, "...oimac onacic...". As I was reading throug these sentences, it seems like I recall you going over this with me before. Anyway, my apologies to those whom I may have misled. Michael, it looks like you were right the first time. Galen Galen From tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com Mon Nov 29 17:07:26 1999 From: tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:07:26 -0700 Subject: A little late --- Cuachalocolamintli Message-ID: There was a previous discussion dealing with Cuachalocolamintli. There was mention that this was a particular astronomical body in space. I was discussing this with a friend and we were analyzing the word itself. >>From Karttunen we have the word A:mintli -- I believe it has something to do with diarhea. It paints a interesting picture, pun intended, A: is from A:tl, min(a) is to shoot with an arrow. and A:min definitely feels like a water arrow.... The second adjective is Co:l which means curved. The word that we are having dificulty is with cuacha..... I remember my grandparents using this word in spanish... as "Pareces un cuachalote...." We understood to mean dirty. There is also reference to buffalo chips as cuachas. This lead to an interesting observation in the Codex Borgia Plate 26. In the four cardinal directions there is a figure of a man painted in red with a excerement colored in red with little eyes in the shape of a fish hook. So, we were able to corralete the word, "Cuachalocolamin" with a codex picture. But we need more information on Cuachalo..... Any thoughts..... Tezozomoc From leonelhermida at netc.pt Mon Nov 29 19:01:18 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:01:18 -0700 Subject: Varmints (Re: Does anyone know these?...) Message-ID: I have at hand a very small extract of the FC where it is spoken of a bird named "huactli", probably identical to the "huactzin": as a matter of fact I have in my collection of Nahuatl animal names the entry "huactli" glossed "black-crowned night heron or laughing falcon" which seems to fit the bird in question. >327. *mo-tocayotia*. inic motocayotia huactli: iuhqui in huactli >itlatol, quichihua: huac, huac: it is named uactli because its >song is like uactli: it makes [the sound] uac, uac. > (b.11 f.4 c.2 p.39) If the origin of the name is indeed imitative (huac,huac), one can well imagine that another unrelated bird just chanced to be called almost identically provided it sounded almost the same. And indeed the Concise Oxford Dictionary gives for the Tropical Amer. bird "hoatzin" the following etymology: "native name, imit." Best regards and thanks for the entry 'huactzin' Leonel >A bit off the Nahuatl topic, but the word variously spelled >"memaloose," "memaloost," "mimaloos," etc., in Chinook Jargon means >"dead." There are several Memaloose Islands in the Columbia River >--the ones I find references to are near the town of Hood River in >Oregon, not that far from Mt. Hood. The word "memaloose" in place >names supposedly refers to Indian burial grounds, which makes sense >for these islands, because the Repatriation Office website of the National >Museum of Natural History inventories skeletal remains found there. >Not to question Mr. Montchalin's recollection, but I can't imagine >how this word got applied to an animal (and I can't find any written >records of its use in Nexis or our own files). The animal he >describes sounds like a marmot, but I'm not at all familiar with the >Mt. Hood area and couldn't say if marmots live there. > >One Nahuatl bird name that's taken a strange turn is , >which FK's dictionary defines as Herpetotheres cochinans, the usual >vernacular name for which is the Laughing Falcon. Somehow this name >got applied the the hoatzin, the international vernacular name for >Opisthocomos hoazin, a totally unrelated and dissimilar bird of the >Amazon basin, hundreds if not thousands of miles from Mesoamerica. >I've never tried to figure how this zoological scramble took place. >Just as a matter of curiosity, is described in the >Florentine Codex? > >Jim Rader > > >> What are the differences between these animals? Does any one of them come >> close to the memaloose found in the Mt. Hood National Forest in Oregon? >> Memalooses are bigger than rats, about a foot to a yard in height, sit >> back on their haunches, and have opposable thumbs just like monkeys or >> possums do. They like to cry out 'mee!' and this might be why they are >> called me[e]malooses. They are capable of getting into your backpacks and >> would just as soon steal cookies and fruit juice from you if you don't >> keep them at bay by throwing rocks at them. I think they are either >> omnivorous or vegetarian, and tend to live in troops of about a dozen or >> more at once, mostly making their homes in rockpiles in the high cascades. >> They are probably related to the white prairie dog of southeastern Oregon, >> but instead of living in the plains like to live in higher elevations. >> >> From a8803917 at unet.univie.ac.at Mon Nov 29 21:15:53 1999 From: a8803917 at unet.univie.ac.at (a8803917) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:15:53 -0700 Subject: (Kein Betreff) Message-ID: i?ve changed my mail-adress, how to do to get the list-mails to my new direction (juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at) ? thank You & ciao juergen stowasser From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Nov 29 23:40:06 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:40:06 -0700 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Languages Message-ID: The most up-to-date publication is Lyle Campbell's American Indian Languages: The Historical Linguistics of Native America. New York and Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1997. ---------- >From: "James S. Coonan" (by way of "John F. Schwaller" ) >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Uto-Aztecan Languages >Date: Mon, Nov 29, 1999, 10:56 AM > > I am looking for a 'family tree' of the Uto-Aztecan languages, > showing estimated time depth of splits, reflecting as near as > possible the current state of research (or else text from which I > can draw the chart). I would prefer an extensive chart, that is > one showing as many languages as possible, not simply representative > members. > > Thank you. > > Jim Coonan > Atlanta, Georgia > > From melesan at pacbell.net Tue Nov 30 03:43:26 1999 From: melesan at pacbell.net (Mel Sanchez) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:43:26 -0700 Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin Message-ID: Marcos Ochoa wrote: > > Hello All, > > I am wondering if there is a list of english and/or spanish words that are > strictly nahuatl in origin. I think chili and chocolate are two of the examples. > > Thank You, > -Marcos Romero-Ochoa A few others: tecolote for owl just found out it comes from xolotl twin of quetzalcoatl the eveing star, hence the evening bird guajolote turkey cuate twin from quetzalcoatl esquinkle small one for English according to Am Heritage Dictionary shack from xacalli and don't forget tamale and tomato. Take care, Mel From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Nov 30 05:41:13 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:41:13 -0700 Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin Message-ID: Marcos, I just re-read your message (which is perfectly clear) and realized (duh!) that you were interested in Spanish words too (I had thought just English words), so here is a list I compiled a few years ago. Best regards, Joe Nahuatl Contributions to Spanish Vocabulary Spanish Word Nahuatl Word Meaning in Spanish amate amatl bark paper (used for paintings) ahuate/ahuatar ahhuatl thorn/to get stuck with a thorn cacle cactli sandal camote camohtli sweet potato chicle tzictli chewing gum (meant sticky gum) chicote xicohtli whip (meant bumblebee) chile chilli chili pepper chocolate xoco-l-atl chocolate (sour-ed-water) coyote coyotl coyote cuate coatl snake, twin, buddy elote elotl ear of corn escuincle izcuintli child, kid (meant dog) gachupin cactli-tzupinia Spaniard (meant sandal-to prick) huipil huipilli indigenous shift, blouse hule ulli, olli rubber itacate itacatl carried lunch jacal xacalli hut mayate mayatl beetle mecate mecatl rope mezquite mizquitl mezquite milpa milpan cornfield mole molli sauce ocote ocotl pine tree, pine wood papalote papalotl paper kite (meant butterfly) petate petlatl reed mat pozole pozolli hominy soup quelite quilitl edible greens tamal tamalli tamale tecolote tecolotl owl tomate tomatl tomato zacate zacatl grass zoquite zoquitl clay, mud Compound Words Spanish Word Nahuatl Word Meaning in Spanish ajolote atl-xolotl salamander (water-doll) guacamole ahuacatl-molli guacamole (avocado-sauce) guajolote huei-xolotl turkey (big-doll/page) jitomate xictli-tomatl tomato (red) (navel-boll) metlapil metlatl-pilli metate grinder (metate-child) petaca petlatl-calli suitcase (reed mat-house/container) pilmama pilli-mama nursemaid (child-carry) tejocote tetl-xocotl kind of fruit (stone-sour) tejolote tetl-xolotl pestle (stone-doll) temazcal temaztli-calli steam-bath house (bath-house) tlacuache tla-cua-tzin possum (something-eat-diminutive) tocayo tocaitl-yo person of the same name (name-ness) zopilote tzotl-piloa vulture (filth-hang) On Mon, 29 Nov 1999, Marcos Ochoa wrote: > Hello All, > > I am wondering if there is a list of english and/or spanish words that are > strictly nahuatl in origin. I think chili and chocolate are two of the examples. > > Thank You, > -Marcos Romero-Ochoa > From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Nov 30 07:04:22 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:04:22 -0700 Subject: numeral variants Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Nov 1999, Leonel Hermida wrote: > This is just for illustrating what I meant by 'variants' in numerals. > I don't include either 'counters' (oontetl) or honorifics (ometzin), though > I include both stand-alone forms and prefix forms (oon-); Leonel, I mark my comments with *** in the relevant places. Can I claim to have entered the domain of "number theory"? <8->) Best regards, Joe > >1. >ce. = one; a; an; single., >ce-. cepa. = once, one time. *** "one" is 'cem' (basically/underlyingly) and the /m/ can become [n] by assimilation or final word position. >cen-. centzontli. = four hundred; many. >cem-. cempoalli. = twenty, cemilhuitl. = one whole day >cep-. ceppa. = once; one time; first; first time. *** The doubling of the 'p' is somehow (but not regularly) caused by the nasal consonant of 'cem'. > >2. >omentin. = two; both. *** -tin is a common plural for nouns. -n- (before -tin) is a plural which occurs on "pronominals": tehhua-n (we), ti-huehhue:i- (we are big [see Andrews, p. 253]), mochi-n (all [pl.]) >omenti. = two. *** -the plural suffix dropped its 'n' ('n' dropping is common and particularly in word-final position, as well as before 'y' and 'w') >omen. = two. *** Same -n as in omentin. >ome. = two; both; couple. >omextin. = two; both. *** The -tin plural suffix is obvious, but the 'x' is not. It is the plural totality morpheme 'ix' (with loss of the vowel /i/), "all two" [cf. 'caxtol-ix-tin' "all fifteen"] >omexti. = two, both. *** Same as above, but 'n' dropping >om-. omilhuitl. = two days, ompoalilhuitl. = forty days. *** The /e/ drops frequently -- the conditions are hard to define. >on-. onxihuitl. = two years, ontzontli.= eight hundred *** /e/ drops; before a non-labial consonant, assimilation takes over >oon-. oontetl. = two. *** Reduplication in numbers usually means at a time. >op- oppa. = two times, twice. *** The doubling of the 'p' is somehow (but not regularly) caused by the nasal consonant of 'ome'. >o- opa. = twice, two times. *** Two possibilities: 1) the /m/ drops before the /p/; 2) the /p/ doubles (as above) and the double 'pp' is not written. (I think #2 is more likely) >ooc- ooccan. = in two places. *** The same effect that doubled the 'p' above is doing the same thing to 'c'. > >3. >ye- yeilhuitl. = three days. *** "Three" is really /eyi/ and the /-i/ is deleted in a process parallel to the one that drops /-e/ in 'ome'. (The further /y/ dropping is not clear.) Word-initial /e/ "excresces" (hablando con su perdon) 'y' sometimes in so-called "classical" -- and in some modern dialects, it either happens generally or not at all (each dialect in its own direction). >yex- yexcan. = three places. *** The /-i/ is deleted and the /y/ becomes [x] in syllable-final position. >e- eilhuitl. = three days. epoalxihuitl. = sixty years. *** The same as ye- above, but without the "excrescent y-". >eintin. = three. *** /y/ adjacent to /i/ (maybe encouraged by /e/ [a front vowel like /e/ is freely dropped (i.e., is not in contrast with its own absence). The same '-n' that is found in 'mochi-n' and 'tehhua-n'. >ei. = three. >eixtin. = three. >eei. = three. >eex-. eexcan. = in three places. >ex-. expa. = three times; thrice. > >4 >nahui. = four. >nahuin. = four. These are similar to the ones above >nahuinti. = four. >nahuintin. = four. >nahuixti. = four. >nahuixtin. = four. >nauh-. nauhtzontli. = sixteen hundred. nahuacalli. = four boats *** The /i/ of 'nahui' is truncated in the same way as the /e/ of 'ome' and the /i/ of 'eyi'. The resulting syllable-final /w/ ('hu') is respelled as 'uh', but the stem is *basically* unchanged <>. >nah-. nahmapilli. = four fingers (e.g., of a drink). *** Not sure. >nap-. nappa. = four times, nappoalilhuitl. = eighty days *** Same doubling effect on /p/ that the consonant of 'cem' and 'ome' have. /w/ does the same consonant doubling in other morpheme combinations. >na-. napa. = four times. *** The /p/ doubles (as above) and the double 'pp' is not written. From carlossn at ui.boe.es Tue Nov 30 09:24:04 1999 From: carlossn at ui.boe.es (Carlos Santamarina) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:24:04 -0700 Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin Message-ID: Marcos Ochoa escribi=F3: > Hello All, > > I am wondering if there is a list of english and/or spanish words that = are > strictly nahuatl in origin. I think chili and chocolate are two of the = examples. > > Thank You, > -Marcos Romero-Ochoa Desde luego, en el espa=F1ol (ahora me refiero al de Espa=F1a) s=ED hay p= alabras de origen n=E1huatl, algunas de las cuales han adquirido un significado diferente a= l original. Algunos ejemplos: - Petate (de petlatl, estera de ca=F1a tejida): en Espa=F1a, bolsa de equ= ipaje del soldado, o, figuradamente, l=EDo de mantas para dormir en el suelo. Es sa= bido que los aztecas dorm=EDan sobre una estera en el suelo. - Petaca (de petlacalli, ba=FAl de petlatl): caja de cigarros, o botella = plana de bolsillo para licor. - Tiza (de tizatl, gis): caso muy curioso, ya que en Espa=F1a se utiliza = esta palabra n=E1huatl, mientras en M=E9xico y otros pa=EDses hispanoamericanos se usa= =93gis=94, de origen latino. - Tocayo: respecto de una persona, cada uno de aquellos que tienen el mis= mo nombre. Aunque de incierta etimolog=EDa (pudiera ser de origen latino), parece si= gnificar =93nuestro nombre=94: to-ca(itl)-yo. Y por supuesto, tomate, chocolate, chile, chile, etc. Ni que decir tiene = que en el espa=F1ol de M=E9xico hay numeros=EDsimos nahuatlismos. Hasta pronto: Carlos. *Englis version: Of course, in the Spanish (now I talk about Spain) yes, there are words f= rom n=E1huatl, some of which have acquired a different meaning from the origi= nal one. Some examples: - Petate (of petlatl, mat of woven cane): in Spain, stock market of lugg= age of the soldier, or, figuratively, mess of blankets to sleep in the ground. It i= s known that the Aztecs slept over a mat in the ground - Petaca (of petlacalli, trunk of petlatl): box of cigarettes, or flat b= ottle of pocket for licor. - Tiza (of tizatl, chalk): case very peculiar, since in Spain this word = is used n=E1huatl (mainly in the schools, of course) while in Hispano-America, Me= xico and other countries " gis ", from Latin origin, is used. - Tocayo: respect to a person, each one of which has the same name. Alt= hough of uncertain etimology (it could be from Latin origin), it seems to mean " o= ur name ": to-ca(itl)-yo. And of course, tomate, chocolate, chile, chicle, etc. It=92s not necessa= ry to say that there are a lot of words from nahuatl in the Spanish of Mexico. Read you soon: Carlos Santamarina. From leonelhermida at netc.pt Tue Nov 30 09:39:29 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:39:29 -0700 Subject: numeral variants Message-ID: Joe, many thanks for the magistral 'lesson' on the numerals. No questions asked! I'm sure you would be as brilliant as a 'Number Theorist'. :-) Best regards, Leonel From marisol at tiscalinet.it Tue Nov 30 11:58:55 1999 From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 04:58:55 -0700 Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BF3B2D.9F4F3A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hola Marcos: El numero de palabras de origen Nahuatl que usamos en Mexico es infinito! Una probadita puedes darla adquiriendo el "Diccionario de Aztequismos" (en realidad "nahuatlismos"!!!!) de Luis Cabrera, Ediciones Oasis, Mexico. La version que yo tengo es de 1980. Un cordial saludo, Susana Moraleda (una mexicana en Roma) -----Original Message----- From: Mel Sanchez To: Multiple recipients of list Date: marted? 30 novembre 1999 4.45 Subject: Re: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin >Marcos Ochoa wrote: >> >> Hello All, >> >> I am wondering if there is a list of english and/or spanish words that are >> strictly nahuatl in origin. I think chili and chocolate are two of the examples. >> >> Thank You, >> -Marcos Romero-Ochoa > >A few others: > >tecolote for owl just found out it comes from xolotl twin of >quetzalcoatl the eveing star, hence the evening bird > >guajolote turkey > >cuate twin from quetzalcoatl > >esquinkle small one > >for English according to Am Heritage Dictionary > >shack from xacalli > >and don't forget tamale and tomato. > >Take care, Mel > > ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BF3B2D.9F4F3A80 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Susana Moraleda.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Moraleda;Susana FN:Susana Moraleda EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it REV:19991130T112251Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BF3B2D.9F4F3A80-- From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Nov 30 15:27:01 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:27:01 -0700 Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin Message-ID: Joe's list is a very good one. One Spanish word missing is tiza (chalk) from tizatl (white stone) John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From dfrye at umich.edu Tue Nov 30 16:15:53 1999 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:15:53 -0700 Subject: Spanish/English Words w/Nahuatl Origin Message-ID: Thanks for Joe Campbell's great list; I just wanted to note that most of the words he cites are *Mexican* Spanish. The number of "aztequismos" in the regional Spanishes outside of Mexico are somewhat smaller. (Note, for instance, that Mexico is the only country, to my knowledge, where "tomate" has the original meaning of "tomatl," i.e. the "tomatillo" or "tomate de bolsa." Red tomatoes are "jitomates.") There are many other commonly used words in Mexico that come from Nahuatl Examples that spring to mind: jicote = bumblebee, ejote = string bean, quiote = stalk of the maguey or century plant, nixtamal = "masa," corn soaked in water and lye for making tortillas; tepache = racoon; tilma = cape; tianguis = market; tejamanil = wooden roof tile (despite the apparent similarity to Sp. "teja" I remember seeing a Nahuatl etymology); etc. etc. Note that most of the common words refer to (indigenous) plants, animals, and foods. The only verb I know of is pepenar = to gather/glean/snatch. The English words from Nahuatl are by and large a subset of the Spanish words. Permit me to steal and modify Joe's list: Spanish Word Nahuatl Word English Word aguacate ahuacatl avocado cacao cacahuatl cacao, cocoa chicle tzictli chicle chile chilli chili, chilli, chile chocolate xoco-l-atl chocolate (sour-ed-water) coyote coyotl coyote jacal xacalli shack? (proposed etym.) (I assume this is a compound) mejicano mexicah Mexican; Chicano (from older Sp.*mexicano, with "x" = "sh") mezcal mexcalli mescal (=liquor; the drug (acc. to OED) drugs mescal and mescaline (I think this just were named meant "baked quiote") in honor of their intoxicating qualities) mezquite mizquitl mezquite (tree) mole molli mole (sauce) nopal nopalli nopal (cactus) (?) ocelotl ocelot peyote peyotl peyote quetzal quetzalli quetzal tamal tamalli tamale tomate tomatl tomato tule tollin tule (a kind of bulrush) guacamole ahuacatl-molli guacamole (avocado-sauce) Other possible words, though their etymologies are less direct, include pocho, pachuco, and pot (as slang for marijuana; according to the OED, from "Mexican Sp. *potiguaya* marijuana leaves." I've never heard "potiguaya" but it sounds like it might be from Nahuatl.)