From sasisson at sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu Fri Oct 1 13:21:52 1999 From: sasisson at sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu (sasisson at sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 07:21:52 -0600 Subject: Tlacuilolli Message-ID: Jeff, George Everett and I were wondering if you had ever heard from the second reader about our translation of Nowotny's Tlacuilolli? We have made the changes suggested by Peter van der Loo. Could you let us know the status of the manuscript. The notes and bibliography get older by the minute. Ed Edward B. Sisson sasisson at olemiss.edu Department of Sociology and Anthropology University of Mississippi University, Mississippi 38677 662-915-7343 From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Oct 4 14:19:34 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 08:19:34 -0600 Subject: Waterfall Message-ID: Does anyone know the Nahuatl term for 'waterfall'? Thank you, Michael McCafferty mccaffe at indiana.edu From harwood at almaak.usc.edu Mon Oct 4 18:18:56 1999 From: harwood at almaak.usc.edu (Stacy Harwood) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:18:56 -0600 Subject: ball games Message-ID: I am posting this message on behalf of my aunt who is a undergraduate student at UCSC in archeology. She's working on a research paper about ball games in Mexico. She would like to compare how specific games have evolved and are currently played today. Thus far she has found many different references for ball games with different names, such as pelota mixteca, tlachtli, patolli, olamaliztli and so on. She would greatly appreciate any suggestions you have in terms of references, researchers or any other thoughts on the topic. Stacy harwood at rcf.usc.edu From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Oct 4 23:27:09 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:27:09 -0600 Subject: Waterfall Message-ID: In the fragmentary pictorial manuscript version of the events of the conquest in Tlaxcala (U. Texas Benson L.A. Collection), a waterfall glyph is labeled in alphabetic Nahuatl as "atl ihuetziyan" which means something like 'water, its customary falling place'. Fran ---------- >From: Michael Mccafferty >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Waterfall >Date: Mon, Oct 4, 1999, 2:22 PM > > > Does anyone know the Nahuatl term for 'waterfall'? > > Thank you, > > Michael McCafferty > > mccaffe at indiana.edu > From christophe.porcier at valeo.com Tue Oct 5 13:06:16 1999 From: christophe.porcier at valeo.com (christophe.porcier at valeo.com) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 07:06:16 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Does anyone know the Nahuatl terms for 'daybreak and moon'? >I am also looking for a list of Nahualt first name for girls. > Thank you, From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Oct 5 14:33:46 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:33:46 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Names Message-ID: Dear List, I have to build a link to the resources page, but the lists of Nahuatl names is found at the following URL: http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/names.html John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com Tue Oct 5 15:26:24 1999 From: tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:26:24 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: daybreak is tlaneci moon is me:tztli -----Original Message----- From: christophe.porcier at valeo.com [mailto:christophe.porcier at valeo.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 6:06 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Does anyone know the Nahuatl terms for 'daybreak and moon'? >I am also looking for a list of Nahualt first name for girls. > Thank you, From support at iomagic.com Tue Oct 5 19:20:10 1999 From: support at iomagic.com (Support AF) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:20:10 -0600 Subject: ball games Message-ID: try soccer... ----- Original Message ----- From: Stacy Harwood To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Monday, October 04, 1999 11:19 AM Subject: ball games > > I am posting this message on behalf of my aunt who is a undergraduate > student at UCSC in archeology. She's working on a research paper about > ball games in Mexico. She would like to compare how specific games have > evolved and are currently played today. Thus far she has found many > different references for ball games with different names, such as pelota > mixteca, tlachtli, patolli, olamaliztli and so on. She would greatly > appreciate any suggestions you have in terms of references, researchers or > any other thoughts on the topic. > > Stacy > > harwood at rcf.usc.edu > > From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx Tue Oct 5 21:04:54 1999 From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:04:54 -0600 Subject: waterfall, and "uh" Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF0F47.7CF21DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable En Chapulhuacanito, Tamazunchale, San Luis Potos=ED, the nahuatl = word for waterfall is "achayawte". In classical nahuatl it would be = "achayauhtli", from "atl", "water" and "chayahui", "to scatter or to = snow".=20 This allows me to raise a question. When I began to study classical = nahuatl, and pronunciation was explained to me, I was told that the = secuence, "-auh", such as in the example above, was to be pronounced = with rounded lips. After being around native speakers of the Huasteca = for a while, I have seen that in actual practice, the syllable final = "uh" or "w", sounds pretty much like the glottal stop, both before = consonents and before silence. In other words, no rounded lips. My = question is, are there regional pronunciations of the "uh" which use = rounded lips, or is this standard explanation of classical nahuatl = pronunciation just wrong? John Sullivan Doctorado en Historia Universidad Aut=F3noma de Zacatecas. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF0F47.7CF21DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    En Chapulhuacanito, Tamazunchale, = San Luis=20 Potos=ED, the nahuatl word for waterfall is "achayawte".  In = classical=20 nahuatl it would be "achayauhtli", from "atl", "water" and "chayahui", = "to=20 scatter or to snow". 
    This allows me to raise a = question. =20 When I began to study classical nahuatl, and pronunciation was explained = to me,=20 I was told that the secuence, "-auh", such as in the example above, was = to be=20 pronounced with rounded lips.  After being around native speakers = of the=20 Huasteca for a while, I have seen that in actual practice, the syllable = final=20 "uh" or "w", sounds pretty much like the glottal stop, both before = consonents=20 and before silence.  In other words, no rounded lips.  My = question is,=20 are there regional pronunciations of the "uh" which use rounded lips, or = is this=20 standard explanation of classical nahuatl pronunciation just = wrong?
    John Sullivan
    Doctorado en = Historia
    Universidad Aut=F3noma de=20 Zacatecas.
------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF0F47.7CF21DC0-- From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Oct 5 21:08:31 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:08:31 -0600 Subject: Waterfall Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Frances Karttunen wrote: > In the fragmentary pictorial manuscript version of the events of the=20 > conquest in Tlaxcala (U. Texas Benson L.A. Collection), a waterfall glyph= is > labeled in alphabetic Nahuatl as "atl ihuetziyan" which means something l= ike > 'water, its customary falling place'. >=20 I drew a complete blank on the original question (although I scratched my head plentifully and did some searching). Fran's contribution reminded me of one of my favorite Molina entries: "atl iohhui" 'gutter or stream of water '. So I thought y'all might find these similar phrases of interest.= =20 Joe =20 atl ichololiz. chorro de agua. 71m2-8-4 =20 atl imopiloayan. corriente de agua. 71m2-8-4 =20 atl inecuepca (huei -invert.2). menguante de mar. 71m2-155-3 =20 atl iohhui. canal de tejado, o manadero de agua. =20 71m2-8-4 =20 atl ipitzahuayan (huei -invert.2). estrecho de mar. 71m2-155-3 =20 atl itemoayan. chorro de agua, de alto abaxo. = =20 71m2-8-4 =20 =20 metztli icualoca. eclipsi de luna. 71m2-55-3 =20 metztli imiquiz. conjunction de luna. 71m2-55-= 3 =20 micqui itlatlayan. hoguera para quemar muerto. 71m2-56-2 =20 micqui itzinco (iuhquim-invert.2). lugar muy escuro. 71m2-43-4 =20 milla ichan. labrador o aldeano. 71m2-56-3 =20 =20 mitl icuatepozo. caxquillo de saeta. =20 71m2-57-1 =20 mitl iyacatepozyo. caxquillo de saeta. = =20 71m2-57-1 =20 =20 naranjo icueponca. azahar. 71m2-063-2 =20 naranjo ixochyo. azahar. 71m2-063-2 =20 =20 obispo iteuctlatocauh. prouisor de obispo. 71m2-74-3 =20 obispo ixiptla. prouisor de obispo. 71m2-74-3 =20 =20 tepetl icuaololiuhca. cabezo de sierra. 71m2-102-4 =20 tepetl itlacapan. ladera de sierra. 71m2- 102-4 =20 tepetl itzintlan. al pie dela sierra. 71m2- 102-4 =20 tepetlicampa. allende la sierra, o detras dela sierra. 71m2-102-4 =20 =20 tepoztli iohui. vena o veta de cobre. 71m2-104-3 =20 =20 tetl ihuahuanca. vena de pedrera o de cantera. = =20 71m2-110-3 =20 =20 tlalhuatl itetecuicaca. pulso dela mu=A4eca, o del brazo. 71m2-123-4 =20 =20 totoltetl icoztica. yema de hueuo. 71m2-150-3 =20 totoltetl iiztaca. clara de hueuo. =20 71m2-150-3 =20 totoltetl itehuilotca. clara de hueuo. 71m2-150-3 =20 =20 tozan ichan. cueua de tozan. 71m2-148-2 =20 =20 tzicatl inan. culebra de hormiguero. 71m2-152-1 =20 =20 tzontlima. cierta sauandija como ara=A4a. 71m2-154-= 2 =20 =20 xicocuitlaocotl iyacacotonca. pauesa dela dicha candela. 71m2-159-1 =20 xicocuitlaocotl iyectiloca. pauesa dela dicha candela. 71m2-159-1 =20 xicotli iteminaya. aguijon de abeja. =20 71m2-159-1 =20 xicotlimiuh. aguijon de abeja. 71m2-159-1 =20 =20 xonacatl itzon. porretas de cebolla. 71m2- 161-1 =20 =20 From Chukol at aol.com Wed Oct 6 06:41:43 1999 From: Chukol at aol.com (Chukol at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 00:41:43 -0600 Subject: Change of Address Message-ID: Dr. Scwaller: I would like to change my e-mail address for the Nahuatl list from chukol at aol.com to wulifu at aol.com. I am only a beginner in the language, but I find the linguistic discussions very interesting. Chuck Oliver From noharm at worldonline.nl Wed Oct 6 13:21:36 1999 From: noharm at worldonline.nl (Harm Puite) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 07:21:36 -0600 Subject: ball games Message-ID: Dear Stacy, The dutch researcher Ted J.J. Leyenaar published a quit extensive study of the mexican ballgame Ulama in which also the actual situation of this game is described. Title of this book is; Ulama, it was published in 1978 by E.J. Brill in Leiden, netherlands with ISBN 90 04 05851 6. Harm Puite -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Stacy Harwood Aan: Multiple recipients of list Datum: maandag 4 oktober 1999 20:20 Onderwerp: ball games > >I am posting this message on behalf of my aunt who is a undergraduate >student at UCSC in archeology. She's working on a research paper about >ball games in Mexico. She would like to compare how specific games have >evolved and are currently played today. Thus far she has found many >different references for ball games with different names, such as pelota >mixteca, tlachtli, patolli, olamaliztli and so on. She would greatly >appreciate any suggestions you have in terms of references, researchers or >any other thoughts on the topic. > >Stacy > >harwood at rcf.usc.edu > > > > From leonelhermida at netc.pt Wed Oct 6 18:25:17 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:25:17 -0600 Subject: noun endings Message-ID: Hi, Please forgive my ignorance but I have a few elementary questions I would love to be responded to: (1) One notices in Nauhatl since the very beginning that a huge amount of nouns end in -(vowel)+tl (ehecatl, coatl, ocelotl, ticitl, cueitl, tepetl, etc). How much in those is noun root and how much is ending? And what is the meaning of the ending? (definiteness?, gender?, distribution into classes?, nominative marker?, singular ending?...) (2) another very common ending, I mean "-tli" , seems almost as common, a third being "-lli" and a fourth "-in"(and "ni"??); same questions as (1) (3) why so common a noun as "innan" (mother?) appears to fall outside of the 'rule'? (4) In Teteoinnan (a divine name) the first part must be teo-tl (god), but it appears reduplicated: is this a plural indicator? If so, how is reduplication done? And is it common to make plurals that way? Is it the rule? I would be very grateful (for not spamming the list with trivialities), if someone could indicate to me where on the web I can learn some grammar and vocabulary. It is the classical language that interests me most. Thank you very, very much. Leonel From tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com Wed Oct 6 19:56:07 1999 From: tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:56:07 -0600 Subject: noun endings Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Leonel Hermida [mailto:leonelhermida at netc.pt] Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 11:25 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: noun endings Hi, Please forgive my ignorance but I have a few elementary questions I would love to be responded to: (1) One notices in Nauhatl since the very beginning that a huge amount of nouns end in -(vowel)+tl (ehecatl, coatl, ocelotl, ticitl, cueitl, tepetl, etc). How much in those is noun root and how much is ending? And what is the meaning of the ending? (definiteness?, gender?, distribution into classes?, nominative marker?, singular ending?...) In my opinion there is really one singular noun marker suffix that is -tl(i), with the "i" marked optional based on consonants clustering. That is to say that "i" will be dropped if the remainder does not create a consonant cluster. The acceptable syllables are: (C)V(C), paranthesis denoting that optional. tepetl(i) -> tepetl CVCVC V CVCVC note: tl is considered one consonant CV-CVC-V CV-CVC as you can see no consonant clusters Now consider the case of Ohtli ohtli -> ohtl VCC V VCC note: There is a consonant cluster created between -htl- therefore you can not drop the "i" The case of -lli is just a progressive assimilation. pil+tli -> pilli There is a rule that states that if -l is followed by tl it becomes ll pil+tli -> pilli Applying the previous we see that the final "i" can not be dropped. pilli CVC-CV as you can see there is no violation of the syllable rules. (2) another very common ending, I mean "-tli" , seems almost as common, a third being "-lli" and a fourth "-in"(and "ni"??); same questions as (1) (3) why so common a noun as "innan" (mother?) appears to fall outside of the 'rule'? In the case of nouns that have possesive as in the case innan the noun drops its singular marker. The number is specified by in- and nantli loses its singular marker. (4) In Teteoinnan (a divine name) the first part must be teo-tl (god), but it appears reduplicated: is this a plural indicator? If so, how is reduplication done? And is it common to make plurals that way? Is it the rule? There are rules for first syllable reduplication to specify different meaning. 1. dup-1st syll = plurality as in the case of pipiltin 2. dup:-1st syll= to specify immenseness as in the case of te:teo:inna:n 3. dup-h-1st syll = I can't remember this meaning....... I would be very grateful (for not spamming the list with trivialities), if someone could indicate to me where on the web I can learn some grammar and vocabulary. It is the classical language that interests me most. Thank you very, very much. Leonel Well I hope that this helps..... Tezozomoc From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Oct 6 21:57:49 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:57:49 -0600 Subject: noun endings Message-ID: Leonel, I'll try not to overlap with what Tezozomoc has already covered -- very well. Two comments below. Best regards, Joe On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Leonel Hermida wrote: > (3) why so common a noun as "innan" (mother?) appears to fall outside of > the 'rule'? Actually, "innan" does follow the rule. It is not a generic reference to 'mother', but means specifically 'their mother'. The possessive paradigm for "nan(-tli)" (as usual, with vowel length omitted -- a pesky transgression of mine which I will account for at the pearly gates): nonan my mother tonan our mother monan your mother amonan y'all's mother inan her mother innan their mother Since "nan(-tli)" refers to a class of concepts which Nahuatl grammar categorizes as 'inalienable' (i.e., normally possessed), it seldom occurs with the absolutive suffix (i.e., -tli/-tl/-li or -in). In the case of 'mother' and 'father', the 1) need for generic reference and the 2) need to observe the principle of 'inalienability' (2 needs in opposition) is satisfied by using the *non-specific* possessive prefix "te-" (someone's): tenan mother or someone's mother tetah father or someone's father > (4) In Teteoinnan (a divine name) the first part must be teo-tl (god), but > it appears reduplicated: is this a plural indicator? If so, how is > reduplication done? And is it common to make plurals that way? Is it the > rule? "teteoinnan" is really a phrase: "teteo innan". The first part obviously involves plural formation from "teotl" by reduplication. "innan" is in the paradigm above, so the phrase means 'mother of the gods' or 'the gods' mother'. From leonelhermida at netc.pt Thu Oct 7 14:55:13 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:55:13 -0600 Subject: thanks Message-ID: Hi, Many thanks to Tezozomoc, John Sullivan and Joe Campbell. It was a tremendous help in making things take order inside my head. As a matter of fact many (apparent) irregularities vanished and many things got fitted. I thank you all very much. Also, it was 'great' to have full paradigms and various explanations that in some sense complement each other. I appreciate your kind information very deeply. Best wishes, Leonel From xikano_1 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 7 17:08:17 1999 From: xikano_1 at hotmail.com (XiKano *) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:08:17 -0600 Subject: Document Search Message-ID: I apologize for posting this here but I do not know where else to ask. I am wanting to purchase the following document ... "Sacrificios humanos entre los Mexicas" por Yollotl Gonz�alez Torres If anyone can help, my e-mail is XiKano_1 at hotmail.com. Also, if anyone knows of an info-exchange site, like this one, where the subject is the Mexica, I would appreciate being guided there. A question such as this would be more appropriate there. Thank you. -XiKano ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Xochiquetzal at webtv.net Sun Oct 10 09:42:02 1999 From: Xochiquetzal at webtv.net (mextli) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 03:42:02 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Fw: [melchizedek-l] Fw: [goddess-l] Fwd: Fw: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Message-ID: --WebTV-Mail-20607-10197 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit --WebTV-Mail-20607-10197 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from mailsorter-103-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.103) by storefull-157.iap.bryant.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 23:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storefull-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net (storefull-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.198.219]) by mailsorter-103-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with ESMTP id A84823F for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 23:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from production at localhost) by storefull-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-d/mt.gso.26Feb98) id XAA19046; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 23:54:11 -0700 (PDT) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAj/PUfcU6/oRDHp1Vb3QJjMHM3RUCFAqRmB0MpepsQtPgHEBGgPQJSIN6 From: JAGUARantheMOON at webtv.net (Enfield Richmond de Mejia) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 02:54:11 -0400 (EDT) To: XOCHIQUETZAL at webtv.net Subject: Fwd: Fw: [melchizedek-l] Fw: [goddess-l] Fwd: Fw: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Check this out quickly and respond! Message-ID: <8616-38003813-13247 at storefull-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-20188-7259 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) --WebTV-Mail-20188-7259 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit --WebTV-Mail-20188-7259 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from mailsorter-101-4.iap.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.29) by storefull-152.iap.bryant.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from mail1.lig.bellsouth.net (mail1.lig.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.55]) by mailsorter-101-4.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-d/ms.dwm.v7+dul2) with ESMTP id WAA01740 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from premio (host-209-214-63-45.ard.bellsouth.net [209.214.63.45]) by mail1.lig.bellsouth.net (3.3.4alt/0.75.2) with SMTP id XAA26847; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:26:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001201bf113d$b3177740$2d3fd6d1 at premio> From: "Lea Greer" To: , , Cc: , , , , , , , , , , Subject: Fw: [melchizedek-l] Fw: [goddess-l] Fwd: Fw: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Check this out quickly and respond! Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:31:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 -----Original Message----- From: L.L. Pellegrini To: Melchizedek List Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 10:41 PM Subject: [melchizedek-l] Fw: [goddess-l] Fwd: Fw: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Check this out quickly and respond! > >Scroll to the bottom and check this out. If it's true, we'll all be >abundantly rewarded!!! Linda >-----Original Message----- >From: MAYAWISDOM at aol.com >To: Goddess List >Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 10:51 AM >Subject: [goddess-l] Fwd: Fw: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Check this out quickly and >respond! > > >> >> >>--part1_0.84792db4.252e336d_boundary >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >> >> >>--part1_0.84792db4.252e336d_boundary >>Content-Type: message/rfc822 >>Content-Disposition: inline >> >>Return-Path: >>Received: from rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (rly-zd05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.229]) >> by air-zd03.mail.aol.com (vx) with ESMTP; Thu, 07 Oct 1999 06:21:58 >> -0400 >>Received: from boson.b.fw.brunssum.net (boson.brunssum.net >[212.125.151.1]) >> by rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (v61.13) with ESMTP; Thu, 07 Oct 1999 06:21:48 >> -0400 >>Received: from default (q91.din.brunssum.net [212.125.144.91]) >> by boson.b.fw.brunssum.net (8.9.3/BuGless_2.10) with SMTP id MAA07712 >> for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:21:13 +0200 >>Message-ID: <005401bf10ac$e4ac9c40$5b907dd4 at default> >>From: "frans doven" >>To: >>Subject: Fw: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Check this out quickly and respond! >>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:15:31 +0200 >>Organization: brunssum.net >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset="iso-8859-1" >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>X-Priority: 3 >>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: SHY Holland >>To: berkowicz, israel ; Ansari, Davood >>; Ans Smulders ; Andrea Mariani >>; Alt, Jurgen ; Agnes Tiszai >>; A.H.Stouthamer ; >; >>; ; ; >>; ; >>; ; ; >>; ; >>; >>Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 5:40 PM >>Subject: Fw: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Check this out quickly and respond! >> >> >>> >>> Why not give it a try >>> >>> Dick Vreeswijk >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: henry truong >>> To: Bardelot, Michele ; D.Vreeswijk >>> ; Trinh, Lynn ; Vu, Ceci >>> ; Natan Amster ; jim bates >>> ; Ceri Behar ; Kelly >>Brockland >>> ; Debby Browning ; Laurence >>> Chisholm ; Cristina Cramer >; >>> Thai Ngoc Buu ; Cristina ; Dave >>> Escott ; Fernando Fonseca ; >>SHY >>> France ; Martha Lilia M�ndez Garza >>> ; SHY Italy ; juan�brown >>> ; Daeng Na Lamlieng ; John and >>Licita >>> Levy ; David Ng ; Love Terri Novak >>> ; Rob < >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 6:54 AM >>> Subject: Fwd: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Check this out quickly and respond! >>> >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > -------------Forwarded Message----------------- >>> > >>> > From: INTERNET:NATE3208 at aol.com, INTERNET:NATE3208 at aol.com >>> > To: , INTERNET:jose.watson at kp.org >>> > , INTERNET:bmw at suntrup.com >>> > , INTERNET:tauheedah.troutman at asr.co.santa-clara.ca.us >>> > Rosalind Jones, INTERNET:rjones at mail.arc.nasa.gov >>> > Carmen Redmond, INTERNET:najah777 at earthlink.net >>> > , INTERNET:RonniePhifer at ca.slr.com >>> > Deniece Moxy, INTERNET:dmoxy at cisco.com >>> > , INTERNET:CMCC1934 at aol.com >>> > Regina Jones, INTERNET:egina_Jones at gilead.com >>> > , INTERNET:wjackson at us.ibm.com >>> > , INTERNET:Stacey.Green at nsc.com >>> > , INTERNET:ynit at pacbell.net >>> > , INTERNET:Donna.Thomason at edex.edwards.af.mil >>> > , INTERNET:MCunningham at nwest.dcmdw.dla.mil >>> > , INTERNET:toni.beckham at amd.com >>> > , INTERNET:jhilton at resumix.com >>> > , INTERNET:jeromekc at pacbell.net >>> > , INTERNET:Bernice at aol.com >>> > , INTERNET:bernice.willis at lmco.com.Willis >>> > , INTERNET:Jaytch at aol.com >>> > , INTERNET:ArLyneD at aol.com >>> > , LilyHVinh >>> > >>> > Date: 10/5/99 7:51 PM >>> > >>> > RE: Fwd: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Check this out quickly and respond! >>> > >>> > ATTACHMENT part 2.2.2.2 message/rfc822 >>> > > Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 19:47:56 -0700 >>> > > From: "John W. Worley, Ph.D." >> > > >>> > > Organization: Worley's ID Profile, Inc. >>> > > To: Andy White >> > > >>> > > Subject: Check this out quickly and respond! >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > I am forwarding this because the person who sent it >>> > > to me is a very >>> > > professional business person and a good friend and >>> > > does not send me >>> > > junk. >>> > > >>> > > Microsoft and AOL are now the largest Internet >>> > > company and in an effort >>> > > make sure that Internet explorer remains the most >>> > > widely used program, >>> > > Microsoft and AOLare running an e-mail beta test. >>> > > When you forward this >>> > > e-mail to friends, Microsoft can and will track it >>> > > (if you are a >>> > > Microsoft Windows user) for a two week time period. >>> > > For every person >>> > > that you forward this e-mail to, Microsoft will pay >>> > > you $245.00, for >>> > > every person that you sent it to that forwards it >>> > > on, Microsoft will pay >>> > > you $243.00 and for every third person that receives >>> > > it, you will be >>> > > paid $241.00. Within two weeks, Microsoft will >>> > > contact you for your >>> > > address and then send you a check. I thought this >>> > > was a scam myself, >>> > > but two weeks after receiving this e-mail and >>> > > forwarding it on, >>> > > Microsoft contacted me for my e-mail and within >>> > > days, I received a check >>> > > for $24,800.00. >>> > > >>> > > You need to respond before the beta testing is over. >>> > > >>> > > If anyone can afford this Bill Gates is the man. >>> > > It's all marketing >>> > > expense to him. >>> > > >>> > > Do Well!!! >>> > > >>> > >Lily Vinh >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ----------------------- Internet >Header -------------------------------- >>> > Sender: NATE3208 at aol.com >>> > Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) >>> > by spamgaab.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.7) with ESMTP id WAA07077 >>> > for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:51:54 -0400 (EDT) >>> > From: NATE3208 at aol.com >>> > Received: from NATE3208 at aol.com >>> > by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id vRQUMphJb_ (4446); >>> > Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:49:18 -0400 (EDT) >>> > Message-ID: >>> > Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:49:16 EDT >>> > Subject: Fwd: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Check this out quickly and respond! >>> > To: ArLyneD at aol.com, Jaytch at aol.com, bernice.willis at lmco.com.Willis, >>> > Bernice at aol.com, jeromekc at pacbell.net, jhilton at resumix.com, >>> > toni.beckham at amd.com, MCunningham at nwest.dcmdw.dla.mil, >>> > Donna.Thomason at edex.edwards.af.mil, ynit at pacbell.net, >>> > Stacey.Green at nsc.com, wjackson at us.ibm.com, >>> > egina_Jones at gilead.com (Regina Jones), >>> > djlondon1 at yahoo.comdjlondon1@yahoo.com, CMCC1934 at aol.com, >>> > dmoxy at cisco.com (Deniece Moxy), RonniePhifer at ca.slr.com, >>> > najah777 at earthlink.net (Carmen Redmond), >>> > Rosalind Jones >>> > , >>> > tauheedah.troutman at asr.co.santa-clara.ca.us, bmw at suntrup.com, >>> > LilyHVinh at compuserve.com, jose.watson at kp.org >>> > MIME-Version: 1.0 >>> > Content-Type: multipart/mixed; >>boundary="part1_b073a6e7.252c12ac_boundary" >>> > X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 >>> > >>> > >>> >> >> >>--part1_0.84792db4.252e336d_boundary-- >> >> >>+------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >---- >>| Goddess List : 391 members (public) >>| http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/goddess-l.html Archive-password: gaia >>| List-Operator: Arthur Jerijian > > > > >+-------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >| Melchizedek List : 455 members (public) >| http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/melchizedek-l.html Archive-password: love >| List-Operator: William Uriel Andros > --WebTV-Mail-20188-7259-- --WebTV-Mail-20607-10197-- From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Mon Oct 11 19:17:12 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:17:12 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Fw: [melchizedek-l] Fw: [goddess-l] Fwd: Fw: FW: Message-ID: Has anyone heard of Urban Legends? This was one of them. Please do not waste your time or ours on these thiongs until you have thoroughly checked them out. J. F. Schwaller, List Owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Mon Oct 11 20:08:56 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 14:08:56 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Fw: [melchizedek-l] Fw: [goddess-l] Fwd: Fw: FW: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, John F. Schwaller wrote: | Has anyone heard of Urban Legends? This was one of them. Please do not | waste your time or ours on these thiongs until you have thoroughly checked | them out. Worse yet was the assumption that we are willing to be saddled with graphic user interfaces. Neither do I have a mouse, nor am I willing to use a GUI. That really long email fom mechizedek was complete crap, and a waste of my time. From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Oct 16 05:30:04 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:30:04 -0600 Subject: Tla:catl Message-ID: Nocnihuan, This is just a short list of examples (I have run out of time tonight, but I wanted to send it anyway). =20 As many of you know, the noun "tla:catl" (person, man) is "verbed" to indicate 'becoming a person, being born'. Further, other animals (monkeys, fish, worms, etc.) "tla:catih" -- that is, when they begin to *be*, they are referred to in the same way as a human. I just encountered an example in the Florentine Codex that was especially interesting, so I thought I'd pass it on and see what y'all might think about it. In discussing the casting of metals and the formation of a metal object, "tla:cati" is used to refer to its initiation of being. I think it's #227 below. In any case, I thought that y'all would be interested in the selected examples. Sorry for my hurry. Best regards, Joe 15. =15atlaca=15. atlaca inteouh catca, quimoteotiaya. he was the god of the water folk; they worshipped him. (b.1 f.2 c.17 p.37) 16. =15atlaca=15. quilhuiquixtiliaya in anamacaque, ihuan atlaca: ihuan ixpan tlamanaya, ihuan tlamictiaya: the water-merchants and the water folk celebrated her feast day, and before her they laid offerings and slew victims. (b.1 f.5 c.Ap p.71) 17. =15atlaca=15. quitoque ca inteouh, in atlaca, they said he was the god of the water folk. (b.1 f.5 c.Ap p.73) 47. =15atlacanemi=15. yehuantin oncan tlacati in zan tlatlanezomaltia tpnc tlanezomaltitinemi, zan tlatahueliloc, yollotlahueliloc, teuhtli, tlazolli cololotinemi, tlalli cololotinemi, atlacanemi, iztlacattinemi, tlaahuilquixtitinemi, ayac quimauhcaitta, born then were those who became evil-tempered on earth--who vented their wrath; the completely perverted and mad, who lived surrounded by vice, sin, given to talk, the dissolute, living in deceit; the prodigals, fearing no one, presumptuous, respecting no one, esteeming no one; treating no one with reserve. (b.4 f.5 c.13 p.50) 48. =15atlacatl=15. atlacatl ichan. is the home of the monster. (b.2 f.14 c.38 p.242) 73. =15i-chantlaca=15. auh in ichantlaca: niman ihcuac compehualtia in tlamazehuaya, . and his household thereupon began the penances. (b.4 f.7 c.19 p.67) 74. =15i-tlacatiliz=15. auh in itlacatiliz: itech motta in icuech, in ce xihuitl centetl quiza;. and its birth date is noted from its rattles; each year, one erupts. (b.11 f.8 c.5 p.76) 119. =15ilamatlaca=15. motlahuancatlalia in huehuetlaca, in ye chicahuaque, in otlachicalhuique, in ye cuaiztaque, in ye tzoniztaque, ihuan ilamatlaca in ilamatque: yehuan huel innemac catca, in octli in quizque. the old men sat drinking wine--those already advanced in age, the well-matured, the gray-headed, the white-haired, the old women, those whose privilege it was to drink wine. (b.1 f.2 c.21 p.48) 120. =15ilamatlaca=15. auh matlaquilhuitl, in quicihuapancuicatiaya, ixquichtin cenquiza, quicecencahua in iztatlaca, in iztachiuhque: in ilamatlaca, ihuan in inyolloco cihua, ihuan ichpopochti, ihuan in ye ichpopochchicacti: and for ten days there sang [and danced] for her in the manner of women all who came together, who gathered together of the salt people, the salt makers -- the old women, and the mature women, and the maidens, and those who were maidens recently matured. (b.2 f.4 c.26 p.93) 121. =15ilamatlaca=15. yoyin in otechmozcaltilitiaque, in motecuiyotzitzihuan, in toteucyohuan in cihuapipilti, in ilamatlaca in tzoniztaque, in cuaiztaque: thy lords, our lords, the noble women, the old women, the white-haired ones, the white-headed ones reared us in such a manner as this. (b.6 f.9 c.19 p.101) 122. =15ilamatlacatl=15. ce ilamatlacatl in tlatoa. one of the old women spoke. (b.6 f.12 c.27 p.151) 123. =15ilamatlacatl=15. ic cempoalli onchicome capitulo, oncan mitoa: in quenin ce ilamatlacatl in telpocheque, anozo ceme in ichpocheque: quinonotzaya, quitlatlauhtiaya in ticitl, inic quiceliz in itech quicahuaya in otztli: twenty-seventh chapter. here it is told how an old woman relative of the youth, or one of the [old women] relatives of the girl advised, entreated the midwife to receive the pregnant woman whom they had left in her charge;. (b.6 f.12 c.27 p.151) 124. =15ilamatlacatl=15. ilamatzin, ilamatlacatl, calyollotl, tlacpehualli, tlapixqui. the revered old woman, the noble old woman [is] one who never abandons the house, who is covered with ashes, who guards [the home]. (b.10 f.1 c.3 p.11) 135. =15itlacatiliz=15. in zan tlahueliloti, tlahuelilocati, in zan ahye otli quitoca, atle onquiza, zan inehuian mopopoloa, motelchihua, mixpopoyomictia, mihyecoa, conmixcahualtia conmocahuilia, quimitlacalhuia, in imahcehual yezquia, in itonal, in inemac, quiteuhyotia, quitlazollotia, quitlazolmictia in itlacatiliz: if he became bad and perverse and followed not the way of righteousness, succeeded in nothing, and entirely by his own acts brought himself to ruin, despised himself, brought harm to himself, failed, lost through his own neglect, gave up, and endangered that which might be his good fortune,--his reward, and his lot: then he tarnished, polluted, and ruined with debauchery his birthright. (b.4 f.1 c.1 p.2) 136. =15itlacatiliz=15. iuhqui ipan tlacat, iuhqui itlacatiliz: on such a day was he born; thus was his birthright. (b.4 f.1 c.2 p.5) 137. =15itlacatiliz=15. ic mitoaya, ca niman iuh quiz, iuhqui iyoliliz, iuhqui itlacatiliz, iuhqui itonal, thus was it stated: "just so is her nature; so is her life; so her birthright; and so her day sign. (b.4 f.1 c.2 p.6) 138. =15itlacatiliz=15. mitoa ic quichicoquixtia, quicualtilia, in itlacatiliz, it was said that thus in part they reversed and made good his birth. (b.4 f.10 c.30 p.100) 139. =15itlacatiliz=15. intlacayemo aci yohualli xelihui: oc nepa cemilhuitl ipan pohui, in ipan otlacat: oc nepa tonalli itech pouhqui in itlacatiliz: if the division of the night had not already arrived, it belonged in this day in which it was born; to this day sign was assigned its birth. (b.6 f.16 c.36 p.197) 155. =15mo-tlacacuepa=15. intlanel yaotitlan, in tzacui, in tzauctica, tetlan onnemi, huel calaqui, motlacacuepa. in case they were besieged, enclosed, in enemy lands, living among others, having penetrated well within, they became like their enemies. (b.1 f.2 c.19 p.42) 156. =15mo-tlacacuepaya=15. (auh miecpa motlacacuepaya in espa=A4oles,=20 (and often the spaniards disguised themselves. (b.12 f.7 c.38 p.114) 192. =15nentlacatl=15. tlacatle totecue, ma oc yehuatl xicmottili, in cuahuic onoc, in tlalli ixco ca, in aya quimomachitia: motolinia in icnotlacatl, in nentlacatl, in aahuia, in ahuellamati: auh in aic totonia, in aic yamania: auh in aic huellamati, in iiomio, in inacayo: in zan cen tohtonehuatinemi, in za cen chichichinacatinemi in iyollo: "o master, o our lord, consider yet those who lie on the board, those who are on the ground, those who know nothing, the poor, the miserable, the useless, those who rejoice not, the discontented, those who never have the necessities of life, those never comfortable of bone, of flesh--those who all together live suffering great pain, great affliction of heart. (b.6 f.1 c.1 p.4) 193. =15nentlacatl=15. cententica, ac cencamatica nimitznotza, nimitztzatzilia: in ica in ipampa, in cuitlapilli, in atlapalli: in nentlacatl in aquimatinemi, in nennemi, in nencochi, in nenmehua: in quinenquixtia in motlacatzin, in moyohualtzin: in one word, or two, i call to thee, i cry out to thee for--on behalf of--the vassals, the useless; the ignorant; the vagabonds; those who sleep, who arise to no purpose; those who waste thy day, thy night. (b.6 f.1 c.2 p.7) 194. =15nentlacatl=15. in icnotlacatl, in nentlacatl, in aahuia in ahuellamati, in cococ in teopohqui quimati: [they are] the poor, the useless, the unhappy, the discontented, the anguished. (b.6 f.1 c.2 p.9) 195. =15nentlacatl=15. cuix ica timotlatemolia in macehualli, in amo tlacamati, in aompa ehehua: auh in aihihuia, in nentlacatl, in zan quipictinemi tlalticpac. wilt thou perhaps seek one wherewith [to replace] the commoner, the disobedient one who understandeth things backwards and who is impulsive, who is useless, who liveth in vain on earth?. (b.6 f.2 c.4 p.18) 218. =15nictlacacihuitia=15. nictlacacihuitia, nicmachtia, i domesticate it; i teach it. (b.11 f.5 c.2 p.48) 219. =15nictlacacihuitia=15. nicnemitia, nictlacacihuitia. i breed it, i domesticate it. (b.11 f.5 c.2 p.49) 227. =15o-tlacat=15. auh in otlacat, in omopitz, in oquiz tlachihualli: niman motlaxxocohuiya tepozcaxic, ipan mocuacualatza: and when the piece has been formed, when it has been cast, when it comes forth, then it is treated with alum; in a copper vessel it is boiled. (b.9 f.6 c.16 p.78) From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Mon Oct 18 00:13:34 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 18:13:34 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: I run a motel on the Oregon coast, and employ a desk clerk of Aztec extraction, and this clerk speaks Nahuatl as his native language, and Spanish as his second language, and English as his third. We quoted the customer a price for three days, and encouraged the customer to inspect the room, and after he did, he came back and paid the price. About two hours later, the customer comes back to the office and seeks a refund for the second and third day, deciding he would only rent the room for one day, and we rearrange the books to indicate that fact, refunding him the 2 days not stayed. Rearranging the books is not necessarily a simple matter; we require him to produce the receipt we just issued him; he complains; he looks around for 15 minutes, making a scene, and then finally 'finds' it. We rearrange the books, cancelling the old receipt and issuing him a new receipt reflecting the terms of the license (not a lease) to enter upon the premises. About two hours later, the customer comes back again, and this time says he would like to pay for the second day because he'd "changed his mind" again. Fine, we ask him to produce his receipt. He complains again. He eventually searches his car and produces his receipt. We cancel it, and issue him another receipt, this time indicating two days. Towards closing time, he comes back and says he has decided on staying just one day, and needs the second day refunded. Fine, we go through the same old rigamarole, and he leaves. My desk clerk says then that customers like that, well, he calls him a mimik or momik or something like that, and says that that is what a "kook customer" is. I can't find this word in Karttunen's Dictionary. What is the derivation for this word? Have I written it down wrong, or heard it wrong? (I have only begun to read up on Nahuatl, and am put off a little bit by the Spanish spelling conventions, so I naturally have a lot more to learn.) Any help to explain his choice of words to describe customers that vaccilate, cannot make up their mind, or do not know what they want? From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 18 05:42:30 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:42:30 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, we called such people Los Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said something like "miquic" (a dead person) implying that he did not belong in this world. Where is your Nahuatl-speaking employee from? Why are you put off by the Spanish spelling conventions. It's as much a part of the language as the Norman conquest impacted spelling (and other things) in English. I have a running argument with friends in the Sierra Norte de Puebla who want to rid Nahuatl from anything that looks like Spanish spelling (as an act of indigenous pride) and use the spelling of some linguists, i.e. ki for qui, wi for hui, etc. This revisionism seems short-sighted. Moreover, they go out of their way to create neologisms in Nahuatl for things that are plainly of Spanish origin, eg, the Holy Trinity etc. Best, Richard Haly ---------- >From: Matthew Montchalin >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) >Date: Sun, Oct 17, 1999, 18:14 > > and am put off a little > bit by the Spanish spelling conventions From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Mon Oct 18 06:07:50 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 00:07:50 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: Richard Haly wrote: | I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, we called such people Los | Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said something like "miquic" (a dead | person) implying that he did not belong in this world. Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's "mimiki" (however you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, and seems to bear the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, perhaps a long i. I wonder if it is pejorative, maybe something along the lines of "idiot" or "jerk?" But your connecting it with the verb for dying might be a very good lead. How about the related (transitive) verb mictia, "to kill, mistreat someone?" Might it denote someone that ought to "drop dead?" So far as I can tell, Nahuatl is one of the most amazing languages that I have ever run into. :) | Where is your Nahuatl-speaking employee from? Oh, somewheres north by northeast of Mexico City, a hundred (?) miles or so. Something of a vagabond spirit that has finally chosen to settle down, and has spent the last five or six years here in Oregon. From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Mon Oct 18 06:22:00 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 00:22:00 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Richard Haly wrote: | Why are you put off by the Spanish spelling conventions. Because it is devilishly difficult figuring out where the long vowels are, short of using macrons superscribed over the vowels. But the simplest compromise is just to capitalize the vowels if they are long, or leave 'em in lowercase if they are short. Also, spelling the very common 'w' sound with one character is a lot easier than using the hu digraph. Finally, memorizing the rules about when a 'c' is an 's' and when it is not, is just extra work that could be put to better use in other ways. | It's as much a part of the language as the Norman conquest impacted | spelling (and other things) in English. Yes, modern Nahuatl is probably a far cry from Classical Nahuatl. (sigh) From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Oct 18 07:20:21 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 01:20:21 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: Matthew, When I saw your first message, I thought it was *probably* from "miqui" 'die', but "momik" would be reflexive and "miqui" is intransitive, so that's out. "mimik" could be a reduplicated form, meaning among other things, continuation or intensity, but it would depend on the dialect being one of those that didn't glue on an "o-" prefix to indicate pastness -- the loss of the final "i" of "miki/miqui" would indicate pastness. In "classical Nahuatl", "miqui" frequently indicated not necessarily literal death, but simply disfunction. "apizmiqui" meant 'he's dying of hunger or just he's hungry.' It was associated with numbness in the body -- we are only speaking figuratively in English when we say 'my foot is dead'. If I say "ni-xoco-miqui" (pardon my Hispanic orthography habit), I don't mean that I'm *dying* for or from wine (sourness =3D wine - from th= e grape or whatever source), but I mean that I am winely disfunctional. Richard referred to one of the modern dialect's form of dead person: miquic?? In "classical", the adjective would be "micqui". A person who was "toto-micqui" would not be literally dead, just impotent ("tototl" means 'bird'). It sounds to me like he was making an observation about the guy's competence -- he is continually disfunctional. Could you ask your employee what state he's from, the name of the village, and the nearest larger town? It would be interesting to try to identify the dialect. =20 =20 > So far as I can tell, Nahuatl is one of the most amazing languages that I > have ever run into. :) >=20 I highly admire your taste in languages. Best regards, Joe p.s. Here are some examples from the Florentine Codex; I had hoped that this list would turn out to be more fruitful, but..... 62. *ixmimiqui*. achtopa quinpepenaya in mimatini, in mozcaliani, in tlanemiliani, in mocxiyehecoani, in amo icximimiquini: in cenca tlamahuiztiliani, in cualli intlatol, in chicahuac, in coanezqui: in moch quitquiticac in innacayo, in itlachieliz in amo ixmahmahui, in amo ixmimiqui: in acan mixtzacuilia in huel imicxitlan tlachie: first they selected those who were wise, able, prudent; the agile, not the halt; the very honorable, the well-spoken, the strong, the gracious hosts; those of good bearing [and] appearance, not cowardly, nor bewildered, nor shy; those of stalwart gaze. (b.9 f.3 c.7 p.34) 63. *ixmimiquiliztli*. ixcuepoctli: ixpopoyotiliztli ixtezcaihcihuiztli, ixtotolicihuiztli, ixmimiquiliztli, ixpopoyotlachializtli. squint eyes, blindness, blindness from cataracts, sun-blindness, blinded vision. (b.10 f.8 c.28 p.144) 10. *apizmic*. temamauhti in tzacualoc, huel tonac in apizmic: it terrified one, when they were shut in, that indeed in large numbers they died of hunger. (b.12 f.7 c.35 p.105) 21. *axixmiqui*. intla ye aca axixmiqui, in zan icel yoaltica quiza: in ahzo metztona, anozo tlayohua: ihcuac quimottitia: if someone wished to urinate, and went forth quite alone at night, when, perhaps, the moon shone or it was dark, then they appeared to him. (b.5 f.2 c.13 p.179) 24. *ciammiquiliztli*. ca ye toconmatiz, ye toconixcahuiz, ye toconcenmatiz in netoliniliztli, in apizmiquiliztli, in teocihuiliztli, in amiquiliztli, in atetzocoaquiliztli, in ciammiquiliztli: for now shalt thou come to know, feel, and deal exclusively with misery, hunger, starvation, thirst, emptiness, fatigue. (b.4 f.6 c.17 p.62) 39. *icximimiqui*. inic aca itech quinehuaya, tlahuelilocati, tennecuilihui, ixnecuilihui, matzicolihui, icxicopichahui, icximimiqui, momacuecuetza, tencualacquiza: when one was under their spell, possessed, one's mouth was twisted, one's face was contorted; one lacked use of a hand; one's feet were misshapen -one's feet were deadened; one's hand trembled; one foamed at the mouth. (b.1 f.1 c.10 p.19) 40. *icximimiquia*. inic aca itech quinehuaya, in tlahuelilocatia, tennecuilihuia, ixnecuilihuia, matzicolihuiaya, icxicopichahuia: icximimiquia, momacuecuetzaya, tencualacquizaya: when someone was under their spell, he was possessed, his mouth was twisted, his face contorted, he lacked use of a hand, his feet were misshapen, his feet were deadened, his hand trembled, he foamed at the mouth. (b.1 f.5 c.Ap p.72) 64. *iztamicqui*. in tlahueliloc ayohuachnamacac, quinamaca in ayohuachpalan, in quipihyac, in chichic, in ayohuachtlacectli, iztacuahuitl, iztachichic, tlaztamictilli, iztamicqui ;. the bad seller of gourd seeds sells spoiled, stinking, bitter ones; toasted gourd seeds [which are] too salty, bitter with salt, briny. (b.10 f.4 c.18 p.68) 338. *mimiqui*. amo huel quitoca, zan onciammiqui, onmociauhcanequi, mimiqui in inacayo, za otlica chachapantiuh, ayocmo huel nenemi:=20 he could not pursue it; he was exhausted, vexed; deadened was his body; he only went flattened on the ground; he could walk no more. (b.5 f.1 c.3 p.159) 339. *mimiqui*. in momazacoahuiani, intla elti, iciuhca mimiqui: he who partaketh of the ma=87acoatl, if aggressive, quickly dieth. (b.6 f.10 c.22 p.126) 340. *mimiqui*. no inamic, in mimiqui tlatlaci piltontli, also it is the remedy when the child has a fatal cough. (b.10 f.9 c.28 p.159) 341. *mimiqui*. inic mitoa quimichpatli: in quiquimichti, tlacualli quin nelhuia, intla quicua ic mimiqui, tlatlacocotoca in incuitlaxcol. it is called quimichpatli for this reason: it is food [for] mice, because, it is asserted, if they eat it, they die of it; their intestines break up. (b.11 f.13 c.7 p.131) 342. *mimiqui*. in mimiqui, in cecepoa tocxi, anozo telpan mococoa: yehuatl quicehuia in cocolli, for one whose feet are deadened, benumbed, or who suffers from a chest ailment, this alleviates the ailment. (b.11 f.15 c.7 p.160) 343. *mimiqui*. ihuan in aquin mimiqui, in quin opeuh coni, and he who has epilepsy, after it has just begun, drinks it. (b.11 f.15 c.7 p.160) 344. *mimiqui*. auh in ihcuac aca huel ic mimiqui in iyollopan in omocentlali alahuac: moteci in iztauhyatl, ihuan in cuauhyayahual yehuatl in iyollo itlacoyo: moxixipehua in ipan iehuayo, and when someone is anguished in his heart, or a humor is oppressive, iztauhyatl and quauhyayaual are ground up, that is, the center of the stalks; its surface bark is peeled off. (b.11 f.16 c.7 p.165) 667. *miquizhiyaltic*. huel temamauhti in iyel: huel ihyac, miquizhiyaltic, ihyalpatic: frightful is its spray, truly stinking, a deathly stench, a bad stench. (b.11 f.2 c.1 p.13) 794. *ocihuamic*. quicua in aquin icnooquichtli, in ye huecauh ocihuamic, inic amo cocoyez in ipampa itlalnamiquiliz in itechpa cihuatl: ca quicehuia in tonacayo, in cenca techtolinia itechpa cihuatl. and one who is a widower, whose wife has died long ago, eats it in order that he will not suffer because of his thoughts regarding women; for it quiets his body which suffers much with regard to women. (b.11 f.19 c.7 p.190) 1043. *tetlamictilia*. quil ic tetlamictilia: it is said that he thereby makes one impotent. (b.11 f.6 c.2 p.54) 1044. *tetlamictilia*. tetlamictilia in totoli iyacacuitl: the erectile process of the turkey makes one impotent. (b.11 f.6 c.2 p.54) 1045. *tetlanmimictia*. teitipozahua teiztlacmeyaltia, tetlanmimictia, tetlancecepoa, . it swells one's stomach, causes one to salivate, deadens one's teeth, sets one's teeth on edge. (b.11 f.12 c.6 p.118) 1046. *teyolmictia*. temacpalitotia tecochtlaza, teyolmictia, tezotlahua, he dances with a dead woman's forearm; he robs by casting a spell, causing people to faint, to swoon. (b.10 f.2 c.11 p.39) 1047. *teyolmictia*. in canin tlacua ocelotl: achtopa, tehipotza, ic teyolmictia, ic tezotlahua. wherever the ocelot eats, first it hisses at one in order to terrify one--to make him swoon away. (b.11 f.1 c.1 p.3) 1111. *xocomic*. ic macuilli in quic, ic huel ihuintic, huel xocomic, aocmo quima in quenin nen: thus he drank five, with which he became well besotted, quite drunk; he no longer knew how he acted. (b.10 f.12 c.29 p.193) 1112. *xocomiccayotl*. pipillo, coconeyo, ihuincayotl, xocomiccayotl: babyishness, childishness, besottedness, drunkenness. (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.250) 1113. *xocomiccayotl*. in ihcuac aca huel itla quichihua, anozo huellatoa: amo quitoaya in aquin. in cenca huel onoconchiuh, anozo huel onitlato: zan quitoa. onoconchiuh, anozo onoconito in pipillotl, in coconeyotl, in ihuincayotl, xocomiccayotl: anozo in chocholocayotl, in aaccayotl: when one did something well or spoke well, he did not say: "i did it very well," or, "i spoke well"; he just said: "i have performed, or i have said a thing of babyishness, of childishness, of besottedness, of drunkenness; or of folly, of imperfection. (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.250) 1114. *xocomicqui*. in tlahuelliloc tetzon tetlapololtiani, tlaixmamateloani, ihuintitl, tlahuanqui xocomicqui, the bad one of noble lineage [is] a scandalizer, a flatterer --a drinker, besotted, drunk. (b.10 f.1 c.5 p.20) 1115. *xocomicqui*. xoxouhcaoctli quitinemi, mihuintiani, cuatlahueliloc, iyellelacic, xocomicqui, tlahuanqui, he goes about drinking crude wine --a drunkard, foolish, dejected; a drunk, a sot. (b.10 f.2 c.11 p.37) 1165. *zozotlacmiqui*. auh intla za oc aca nenitztoc, aoc huel molinia, aoc huel mocuechinia, aoc huel momapatla, huel zozotlahua, zozotlacmiqui in inma, in imicxi, and if now some only in vain sat looking, they could not move, nor stir, nor resist. they were stunned; their arms and legs were deadened. (b.4 f.10 c.31 p.103) From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Mon Oct 18 07:45:34 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 01:45:34 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: | In "classical Nahuatl", "miqui" frequently indicated not necessarily | literal death, but simply disfunction. "apizmiqui" meant 'he's dying of | hunger or just he's hungry.' Okay, gotcha. Like when people are 'dying for a burger' -- that sort of thing. | 'It was associated with numbness in the body -- we are only speaking | figuratively in English when we say 'my foot is dead'. Wellll.... I think we tend to say that our foot has fallen 'asleep' rather than actually dying... | If I say "ni-xoco-miqui" (pardon my Hispanic orthography habit), | I don't mean that I'm *dying* for or from wine (sourness =3D wine | - from th= e grape or whatever source), but I mean that I am winely | disfunctional. Not having the ability to discriminate good wine from bad? Or just dizzy (impaired) from the wine? | Richard referred to one of the modern dialect's form of dead person: | miquic?? In "classical", the adjective would be "micqui". A person | who was "toto-micqui" would not be literally dead, just impotent | ("tototl" means 'bird'). Okay. :) | It sounds to me like he was making an observation about the guy's | competence -- he is continually disfunctional. Or having such an absence of bearing that he doesn't whether he is coming or going? | Could you ask your employee what state he's from, the name of the | village, and the nearest larger town? It would be interesting to try | to identify the dialect. =20 Okay, I'll ask him. From cberry at cinenet.net Mon Oct 18 17:11:50 1999 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:11:50 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > Richard Haly wrote: > | I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, we called such people Los > | Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said something like "miquic" (a dead > | person) implying that he did not belong in this world. > > Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's "mimiki" (however > you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, and seems to bear > the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, perhaps a long i. Sounds like a distorted plural for "dead people" -- which seems appropriate. -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling From jackie.meloche at ualberta.ca Mon Oct 18 17:26:54 1999 From: jackie.meloche at ualberta.ca (Meloche, Jackie) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:26:54 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: You people are all way ahead of me. I have always been fascinated by Aztecs, but I don't have your expertise. I mostly study their culture and calendar and mysticism. How do I get removed from the list? -----Original Message----- From: Craig Berry [mailto:cberry at cinenet.net] Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 11:12 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > Richard Haly wrote: > | I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, we called such people Los > | Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said something like "miquic" (a dead > | person) implying that he did not belong in this world. > > Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's "mimiki" (however > you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, and seems to bear > the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, perhaps a long i. Sounds like a distorted plural for "dead people" -- which seems appropriate. -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 18 20:14:26 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:14:26 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: Greetings: Is your Nahuatl-speaking employee from the Sierra Norte de Puebla? Though NNE could be in Hidalgo. The Sierra Norte de Puebla is about 100 mi (or more) ENE of DF. An exact location can help with an exact translation. Mimiki or perhaps mijmikki (aka. mihmicqui) could be translated "bird of ill omen" in the Sierra Norte de Puebla. It would come from the Land of the Dead and would disrupt the order of talticpac, the middle world in which we spend most of our time. Just plain mikki is a dead person. mijmikki wd be "someone who having died repeatedly comes" which means someone who has made more than one journey to the Land of the Dead and now comes here, thus, the omen. qualli yetoc nejin. Richard Haly ---------- >From: Matthew Montchalin >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) >Date: Mon, Oct 18, 1999, 0:08 > > Where is your Nahuatl-speaking employee from? > > Oh, somewheres north by northeast of Mexico City, a hundred (?) miles or > so. From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Oct 18 21:04:24 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:04:24 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > > | If I say "ni-xoco-miqui" (pardon my Hispanic orthography habit), > | I don't mean that I'm *dying* for or from wine (sourness =3D wine > | - from th= e grape or whatever source), but I mean that I am winely > | disfunctional. > > Not having the ability to discriminate good wine from bad? Or just dizzy > (impaired) from the wine? > Winely disfunctional = drunk (At first, I thought you might be hinting about something you knew about either Richard or me |8-<) ) From Yaoxochitl at aol.com Mon Oct 18 22:23:03 1999 From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:23:03 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: I was wondering, what does Nahuatltlahto mean? From Yaoxochitl at aol.com Mon Oct 18 22:26:17 1999 From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:26:17 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: Is there anyone that can help me locate these Nahuatl-speaking people so that I may learn to speak it myself? From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Tue Oct 19 00:36:02 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 18:36:02 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 1999 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote: | Is there anyone that can help me locate these Nahuatl-speaking people so | that I may learn to speak it myself? I bet it's not Classical Nahuatl, that's for sure. With a heaping dose of Spanish mixed in. From mikegaby at hotmail.com Tue Oct 19 01:08:38 1999 From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:08:38 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: Jackie, Don't unsubscribe yet. I cannot begin to describe how much I have learned just "listening-in". The knowlege collected in the minds on this list is absolutely amazing, and if you are really interested in ancient Meso.. cultures you would do well to subscribe to Aztlan as well. And feel free to ask questions on subjects that interest you. Maybe there is someone out there just itching to share the same interests. Calender and mysticism, eh? Mike Gaby San Diego >From: "Meloche, Jackie" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: RE: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) >Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:27:15 -0600 > >You people are all way ahead of me. I have always been fascinated by >Aztecs, but I don't have your expertise. I mostly study their culture and >calendar and mysticism. > How do I get removed from the list? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Craig Berry [mailto:cberry at cinenet.net] > Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 11:12 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook >customer?) > > On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > > > Richard Haly wrote: > > | I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, we called >such people Los > > | Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said something like >"miquic" (a dead > > | person) implying that he did not belong in this world. > > > > Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's >"mimiki" (however > > you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, >and seems to bear > > the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, >perhaps a long i. > > Sounds like a distorted plural for "dead people" -- which >seems > appropriate. > > -- > | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net > --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html > | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them > a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Tue Oct 19 01:48:50 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:48:50 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: For those of us just beginning to learn Nahuatl, what are the best publications to get? So far. I have Karttunen's Analytical Dictionary and Sullivan's Grammatical Compendium. I may be hoping against odds, but are there any comic books published in Nahuatl? Modern or otherwise? For instance, something akin to the Asterix series in Latin? From Yaoxochitl at aol.com Tue Oct 19 04:24:02 1999 From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 22:24:02 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: The Florentine Codex by Fray San Bernardino de Sahagun is an excellent source on Classical Nahuatl in Spanish, English, and Nahuatl. Also the Codex Molina is a good one. If u have the money, Yale University offers an intensive 8 week Nahuatl course and it counts to a whole year's worth of college credit. That is a start... From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Tue Oct 19 04:38:10 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 22:38:10 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 1999 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote: | The Florentine Codex by Fray San Bernardino de Sahagun is an excellent | source on Classical Nahuatl in Spanish, English, and Nahuatl. Also the | Codex Molina is a good one. >>From the excerpts I've seen so far, those documents are indeed a nice thing to read and scrutinize. | If u have the money, Yale University offers an intensive 8 week Nahuatl | course and it counts to a whole year's worth of college credit. I'm *really* burned out on the university scene. (Ten years of Classical Latin, four or five years of German, a bunch of other languages two years apiece. To that you might even add in some law school where I ended up lecturing the professor on Latin, rather than the other way around...) Actually, I was thinking of something that would provide me with pleasant diversion, like a comic book, or a book on fairy tales (like those of the Brothers Grimm). :) Surely there *is* a market for that sort of thing, *somewhere* in the world? From heatherhess at hotmail.com Tue Oct 19 04:52:03 1999 From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 22:52:03 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: How can I sign up for Aztlan? I am fairly new on this chat line and have to say I agree with you Mike - before I was on a dance chat line that was extremely active - 40 messages or so per day! there was a lot of bubble-gum messages but by reading through and ignoring what I wasn't interested in I learned extremely valuable info! Heather >From: "mike gaby" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: RE: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) >Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:08:58 -0600 > >Jackie, >Don't unsubscribe yet. I cannot begin to describe how much I have learned >just "listening-in". The knowlege collected in the minds on this list is >absolutely amazing, and if you are really interested in ancient Meso.. >cultures you would do well to subscribe to Aztlan as well. And feel free >to >ask questions on subjects that interest you. Maybe there is someone out >there just itching to share the same interests. Calender and mysticism, >eh? >Mike Gaby >San Diego > > > >From: "Meloche, Jackie" > >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > >To: Multiple recipients of list > >Subject: RE: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) > >Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:27:15 -0600 > > > >You people are all way ahead of me. I have always been fascinated by > >Aztecs, but I don't have your expertise. I mostly study their culture and > >calendar and mysticism. > > How do I get removed from the list? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Craig Berry [mailto:cberry at cinenet.net] > > Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 11:12 AM > > To: Multiple recipients of list > > Subject: Re: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook > >customer?) > > > > On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > > > > > Richard Haly wrote: > > > | I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, we called > >such people Los > > > | Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said something like > >"miquic" (a dead > > > | person) implying that he did not belong in this world. > > > > > > Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's > >"mimiki" (however > > > you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, > >and seems to bear > > > the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, > >perhaps a long i. > > > > Sounds like a distorted plural for "dead people" -- which > >seems > > appropriate. > > > > -- > > | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net > > --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html > > | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them > > a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Oct 19 06:03:13 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 00:03:13 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: Enrique Garcia Escamilla, Tlahtolnahuatilli: curso elemental de nahuatl clasico en 15 fasciculos (Mexico, DF: Plaza y Valdes). They printed 3000 copies in 1994 -- and it has comic book pages!! Folktales (in a modern dialect not all *that* far from "classical" Nahuatl: Pablo Gonzalez Casanova, Cuentos indigenas (Mexico, DF: UNAM). Mine is dated 1965, but newer editions are available. > > Actually, I was thinking of something that would provide me with pleasant > diversion, like a comic book, or a book on fairy tales (like those of the > Brothers Grimm). :) Surely there *is* a market for that sort of thing, > *somewhere* in the world? > From karl-heinz.gruessner at ub.uni-tuebingen.de Tue Oct 19 09:48:06 1999 From: karl-heinz.gruessner at ub.uni-tuebingen.de (Karl-Heinz Gruessner) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 03:48:06 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:48:44 -0600 > Reply-to: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > From: Matthew Montchalin > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Publications > > For those of us just beginning to learn Nahuatl, what are the best > publications to get? So far. I have Karttunen's Analytical Dictionary > and Sullivan's Grammatical Compendium. > > I may be hoping against odds, but are there any comic books published in > Nahuatl? Modern or otherwise? For instance, something akin to the > Asterix series in Latin? > Hi, Maybe that's something to be read by those beginning to study Nahautl: Aesop's fables in Nahuatl with German and English translations>>>> >>>>>>Aesopus; Kutscher, Gerdt >>>>>>Aesop in Mexiko : d. Fabeln d. Aesop in aztekischer Sprache ; >>>>>>Texte mit dt. u. engl. �bers. / aus d. Nachlass von Gerdt >>>>>>Kutscher hrsg. von Gordon Brotherston u. G�nter Vollmer. - >>>>>>>Berlin : Gebr. Mann, 1987.- 259 S. : Ill. >>>>>>> (Stimmen indianischer V�lker ; 3) ISBN 3-7861-1509-5 >>>>>>> Universit�tsbibliothek T�bingen >>>>>>>>Signatur (call nr): 32 A 18774 The book could still be available. Greetings Karl-Heinz Gruessner University Library Tuebingen ---------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Karl-Heinz Gruessner Universitaetsbibliothek Postfach 2620 D-72016 Tuebingen Tel.: (49) +7071-294539 Fax.: (49) +7071-293123 ---------------------------------------------------------- From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Oct 19 11:30:50 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 05:30:50 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: The Kartunnen-Campbell grammar is a great place to start. You can order that from Fritz Schwaller, the owner of this list. On Mon, 18 Oct 1999 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote: > The Florentine Codex by Fray San Bernardino de Sahagun is an excellent source > on Classical Nahuatl in Spanish, English, and Nahuatl. Also the Codex Molina > is a good one. If u have the money, Yale University offers an intensive 8 > week Nahuatl course and it counts to a whole year's worth of college credit. > That is a start... > From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Oct 19 14:37:34 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:37:34 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: Campbell, Joe R. and Frances Karttunen, Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar. Vol. I: Text and Exercises; vol. II: Vocabulary and Key (Missoula: University of Montana, 1997) 336p. & 272p. $32.70 for both volumes, shipping included. This introduction to Nahuatl was prepared for a six-week summer course at the Univ. of Texas at Austin in 1989. Even though these authors describe their work as a "foundation course for learning Nahuatl," in truth it is much more than this because they in fact deliver a thorough grammatical analysis of the language. The first volume contains a detailed grammatical portion, complemented by practical exercises. The second volume is a thematic vocabulary, also including morphological and syntactical exercises. It is currently the only comprehensive introduction to Nahuatl available in English. To order, send check payable to The University of Montana to: Dr. J. F. Schwaller Office of the Provost The University of Montana Missoula, MT 59812-1340 John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr Tue Oct 19 14:40:39 1999 From: lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr (Patrick LESBRE) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:40:39 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: If I remenber well you can find in Mexico some book more or less similar to comic, made by Joaquin GALARZA in order to teach nahuatl for children. At least you will find may drawings, but not Asterix! =20 At 22:39 18/10/99 -0600, vous avez =E9crit: >On Mon, 18 Oct 1999 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote: > >| The Florentine Codex by Fray San Bernardino de Sahagun is an excellent >| source on Classical Nahuatl in Spanish, English, and Nahuatl. Also the >| Codex Molina is a good one. > >>>From the excerpts I've seen so far, those documents are indeed a nice >thing to read and scrutinize. > >| If u have the money, Yale University offers an intensive 8 week Nahuatl >| course and it counts to a whole year's worth of college credit. =20 > >I'm *really* burned out on the university scene. (Ten years of Classical >Latin, four or five years of German, a bunch of other languages two years >apiece. To that you might even add in some law school where I ended up >lecturing the professor on Latin, rather than the other way around...) > >Actually, I was thinking of something that would provide me with pleasant >diversion, like a comic book, or a book on fairy tales (like those of the >Brothers Grimm). :) Surely there *is* a market for that sort of thing, >*somewhere* in the world? > > > ___________________ Patrick LESBRE Universit=E9 de Toulouse le Mirail 32 rue la Fonderie 31000 TOULOUSE t=E9l./fax 33(0)5 61 14 26 99 email lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr From J_Taggart at ACAD.FANDM.EDU Tue Oct 19 14:43:26 1999 From: J_Taggart at ACAD.FANDM.EDU (James Taggart) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:43:26 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: >Dear Matthew, If you are looking for Nahuat versions of the Grimm's stories, you can find them in the appendix to my The Bear and His Sons (Texas, 1997) and in the unpublished companion volume containing several texts. The stories are written with Karttunen's orthography. Nahuat is very close to Nahuatl. Jim Taggart For those of us just beginning to learn Nahuatl, what are the best >publications to get? So far. I have Karttunen's Analytical Dictionary >and Sullivan's Grammatical Compendium. > >I may be hoping against odds, but are there any comic books published in >Nahuatl? Modern or otherwise? For instance, something akin to the >Asterix series in Latin? James M. Taggart Lewis Audenreid Professor of History and Archaeology Department of Anthropology Franklin and Marshall College Lancaster, PA 17604-3003 tel. 717-291-4038 J_Taggart at ACAD.FANDM.EDU From lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr Tue Oct 19 15:02:23 1999 From: lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr (Patrick LESBRE) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:02:23 -0600 Subject: Traduction Message-ID: 1. Someone knows the meaning of this phrase, used by a french writer (Le Clezio) ? QUEN VEL XIMIMATI IN TI TEUCUCUITLA MICHIN 2. Is it possible to find an grammatical equivalence between TZONTECOMA and TZONTECOMAMA ? reduplication ? intensive ? abreviacion ? Gracias por su ayuda.Thanks for your help ___________________ Patrick LESBRE Universit=E9 de Toulouse le Mirail 32 rue la Fonderie 31000 TOULOUSE t=E9l./fax 33(0)5 61 14 26 99 email lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr From takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp Tue Oct 19 15:21:17 1999 From: takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp (Yukitaka Inoue Okubo) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:21:17 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: The book may be this one.... "Conversacion nahuatl-espannol, metodo audiovisual para la ensennanza del nahuatl"(Text by Joaquin Galarza and Carlos Lopez Avila, Drawings by Cecilia Rossell), published from Centro de Investigaciones y Estudios Superiores en Antropologia Social(CIESAS), Mexico, 1987. I doubt if it'd be still available, or will there be any reprent? ------------------------------------------------------------ Mtro. YUKITAKA INOUE OKUBO Universidad de Estudios Extranjeros de Osaka E-mail: takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp ------------------------------------------------------------ > > If I remenber well you can find in Mexico some book more or less similar to > comic, made by Joaquin GALARZA in order to teach nahuatl for children. At > least you will find may drawings, but not Asterix! > =20 > ___________________ > > Patrick LESBRE > Universit=E9 de Toulouse le Mirail > 32 rue la Fonderie > 31000 TOULOUSE > t=E9l./fax 33(0)5 61 14 26 99 > email lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr > > From mdmorris at indiana.edu Tue Oct 19 16:09:51 1999 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:09:51 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: REgarding short stories, Norbert Francis and the Archivo General del Estado de Tlaxcala recently printed a series of pedagogical stories in modern Nahuatl directed toward the speakers in the San Isidro Buen Suceso-San Miguel de Canoa region (toward where the rains have been so damaging). I'm not sure if Tlaxcala has extra copies of these for sale outside of the country, but Norbert at Arizona State University, I am sure could tellyou. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From blnewman at yahoo.com Tue Oct 19 16:24:09 1999 From: blnewman at yahoo.com (Bobbi) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:24:09 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: Mike, How do i subscirbe to Aztlan? Thanks, Bobbi --- mike gaby wrote: > and if you are really interested > in ancient Meso.. > cultures you would do well to subscribe to Aztlan as > well. > > > >From: "Meloche, Jackie" > > >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > >To: Multiple recipients of list > > >Subject: RE: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook > customer?) > >Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:27:15 -0600 > > > >You people are all way ahead of me. I have always > been fascinated by > >Aztecs, but I don't have your expertise. I mostly > study their culture and > >calendar and mysticism. > > How do I get removed from the list? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Craig Berry [mailto:cberry at cinenet.net] > > Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 11:12 AM > > To: Multiple recipients of list > > Subject: Re: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or > kook > >customer?) > > > > On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > > > > > Richard Haly wrote: > > > | I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, > we called > >such people Los > > > | Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said > something like > >"miquic" (a dead > > > | person) implying that he did not belong in > this world. > > > > > > Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he > said it's > >"mimiki" (however > > > you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel > seems long, > >and seems to bear > > > the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the > end, > >perhaps a long i. > > > > Sounds like a distorted plural for "dead people" > -- which > >seems > > appropriate. > > > > -- > > | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net > > --*-- > http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html > > | "They do not preach that their God will > rouse them > > a little before the nuts work loose." - > Kipling > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at > http://www.hotmail.com > ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From Ian.Robertson at asu.edu Tue Oct 19 16:41:11 1999 From: Ian.Robertson at asu.edu (Ian Robertson) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:41:11 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: Hello Mark; I just checked the Arizona State University directory in the hopes of locating a record for Norbert Francis; I failed to find him. I am interested in hearing more about the San Miguel de Canoa stories you mention (and talking to Norbert Francis, if he really is here at ASU!) Could you perhaps provide some contact information? Thanks very much. Ian Robertson -------------------- Ian Robertson Dept. of Anthropology Arizona State University Tempe, AZ, 85287-2402 Ian.Robertson at asu.edu -----Original Message----- From: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]On Behalf Of Mark David Morris Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 9:12 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Publications REgarding short stories, Norbert Francis and the Archivo General del Estado de Tlaxcala recently printed a series of pedagogical stories in modern Nahuatl directed toward the speakers in the San Isidro Buen Suceso-San Miguel de Canoa region (toward where the rains have been so damaging). I'm not sure if Tlaxcala has extra copies of these for sale outside of the country, but Norbert at Arizona State University, I am sure could tellyou. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com Tue Oct 19 16:55:18 1999 From: tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:55:18 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: Last I knew of Norbert is that he is teaching out of Flagstaff, northern arizona..... -----Original Message----- From: Ian Robertson [mailto:Ian.Robertson at asu.edu] Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 9:41 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Publications Hello Mark; I just checked the Arizona State University directory in the hopes of locating a record for Norbert Francis; I failed to find him. I am interested in hearing more about the San Miguel de Canoa stories you mention (and talking to Norbert Francis, if he really is here at ASU!) Could you perhaps provide some contact information? Thanks very much. Ian Robertson -------------------- Ian Robertson Dept. of Anthropology Arizona State University Tempe, AZ, 85287-2402 Ian.Robertson at asu.edu -----Original Message----- From: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]On Behalf Of Mark David Morris Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 9:12 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Publications REgarding short stories, Norbert Francis and the Archivo General del Estado de Tlaxcala recently printed a series of pedagogical stories in modern Nahuatl directed toward the speakers in the San Isidro Buen Suceso-San Miguel de Canoa region (toward where the rains have been so damaging). I'm not sure if Tlaxcala has extra copies of these for sale outside of the country, but Norbert at Arizona State University, I am sure could tellyou. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From mikegaby at hotmail.com Wed Oct 20 06:28:31 1999 From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 00:28:31 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: I belive you send an email to Aztlan at listserv.louisville.edu with no subject, and only the words "subscribe Aztlan" in the message body. If this doesn't work, use you search engine of choice to find Aztlan. I like northernlight.com mikegaby san diego >From: "Heather Hess" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: RE: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) >Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 22:52:23 -0600 > >How can I sign up for Aztlan? I am fairly new on this chat line and have >to >say I agree with you Mike - before I was on a dance chat line that was >extremely active - 40 messages or so per day! there was a lot of >bubble-gum >messages but by reading through and ignoring what I wasn't interested in I >learned extremely valuable info! Heather > > > >From: "mike gaby" > >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > >To: Multiple recipients of list > >Subject: RE: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) > >Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:08:58 -0600 > > > >Jackie, > >Don't unsubscribe yet. I cannot begin to describe how much I have >learned > >just "listening-in". The knowlege collected in the minds on this list is > >absolutely amazing, and if you are really interested in ancient Meso.. > >cultures you would do well to subscribe to Aztlan as well. And feel free > >to > >ask questions on subjects that interest you. Maybe there is someone out > >there just itching to share the same interests. Calender and mysticism, > >eh? > >Mike Gaby > >San Diego > > > > > > >From: "Meloche, Jackie" > > >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > > >To: Multiple recipients of list > > >Subject: RE: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) > > >Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:27:15 -0600 > > > > > >You people are all way ahead of me. I have always been fascinated by > > >Aztecs, but I don't have your expertise. I mostly study their culture >and > > >calendar and mysticism. > > > How do I get removed from the list? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Craig Berry [mailto:cberry at cinenet.net] > > > Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 11:12 AM > > > To: Multiple recipients of list > > > Subject: Re: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook > > >customer?) > > > > > > On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > > > > > > > Richard Haly wrote: > > > > | I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, we called > > >such people Los > > > > | Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said something like > > >"miquic" (a dead > > > > | person) implying that he did not belong in this world. > > > > > > > > Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's > > >"mimiki" (however > > > > you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, > > >and seems to bear > > > > the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, > > >perhaps a long i. > > > > > > Sounds like a distorted plural for "dead people" -- which > > >seems > > > appropriate. > > > > > > -- > > > | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net > > > --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html > > > | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them > > > a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling > > > >______________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From wmiller at uakron.edu Wed Oct 20 11:49:57 1999 From: wmiller at uakron.edu (William Miller) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 05:49:57 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: To subscribe to Aztlan send the e-mail to listserv at listserv.louisville.edu. This address is for commands to subscribe, unsubscribe, etc. Send messages to the list to Aztlan at listserv.louisville.edu. The command to subscribe is (put this line and nothing else in the body of the message, nothing in the subject line): Subscribe Aztlan Your-first-name Your-last-name Bill At 12:31 AM 10/20/99 -0600, mike gaby wrote: >I belive you send an email to Aztlan at listserv.louisville.edu >with no subject, and only the words "subscribe Aztlan" in the message body. >If this doesn't work, use you search engine of choice to find Aztlan. I >like northernlight.com >mikegaby >san diego > From lidia1 at pue1.telmex.net.mx Wed Oct 20 17:55:40 1999 From: lidia1 at pue1.telmex.net.mx (Lidia Gomez) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 11:55:40 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: Richard: I'm sorry my english is not very good but here I go: In the nahuatl area of Mexico we use the word "mimiqui" to describe a childish behaviour. Mimiqui, as someone has already pointed out, is related to the verb to die. This is because toddlers who need attention, sometimes because they are so spoiled or jealous of having a new baby at home for instance, cry a lot in a way like throwing a tra-trum (I read this word once long ago) . They make a deep aspiration for cryin and then suddenly stop breathing, got blue and their eyes go white. Here you can see the relation to the verb to die. The tra-trum is over when you sprink some cold water on the child face. Pediatrician have a technical word for this behaviour: "espasmo del solloso" (I couldn't find the word in english). According to experts in parent counseling the' espasmo del solloso' stops as soon as the child is sure that he or she is loved, and you can help a lot if just ignore the kid when is having the "mimiqui", because the circle "espasmo del solloso"-attention is broken. I am a mother myself and believe me when I say that it does work. We also apply the word "mimiqui" to adults who are always in a URGE for attention, doing silly, childish, very annoying, but harmless things. By harmless I mean that their behaviour is not violent or agresive in any way, just VERY annoying. However, I wouldn't say that a "mimiqui" guy is "disfunctional" in some way. Perhaps for nahuatl and mexican culture there is plenty of room for patterns of behaviour that don't fit with the establishment, as long as they are not harming someone else. Anyway, the word "mimiqui" is not pejorative, well, lets say that it depends on the context: to who, when, how, etc. I thing your employee was refering to this when he called the costumer's behaviour "mimiqui". There are some other words for adult behaviour that have their roots in nahuatl, for instance "chipil" which is applied to a person that is always uneasy, in bad mood, unhappy, nothing seems to please him or her, and extremely attached to his or her mother ( this is a typical pattern of behaviour in the relation machos-mexican wives-mother in law ). Chipil, when applied to a toddler describes the behavior and mood of a child whose mother is expecting a baby or just had a new one. Chipil relates only to the relation with the mother, the need for being always the favorite, to be reasure of mom's love, and the awareness of having to share mom's love and attention with sibils (which is very unpleasent for kids by the way). Any clue about the meaning of chipil in nahuatl? Furthermore, there are other words in nahuatl that refer to childish behaviour, for instance, "miate" when refering to small kids. I don't recall the word in nahuatl but the translation into spanish is "pedo" (sorry!). According to Luis Reyes this means that kids are like "pedos": always there, always annoying but you have to live with them. In nahuatl culture kids are seen in a rather different way, thing in the word "escuicle" (perro) applied to kids, for instance. Luis Reyes always says: "los ninnos son unos cabrones", and there is not a pejorative meaning in the statement, but rather a different way of looking at child behaviour. Luis Reyes has some amazing stories about kids, child behaviour and their relation with adults within the nahua culture. Once he was telling us about the day he was reading to kids in a primary school part of Sahagun' s work, that when the father adresses to his son. The answer of these kids to the nahuatl discourse was just amazing, words that we could analize in the most brilliant academic way, for nahua kids have a concrete significance that can go far beyond of what we could expect from our "academic" understanding of the nahua words. Saludos, Lidia. > >Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's "mimiki" (however >you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, and seems to bear >the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, perhaps a long i. >I wonder if it is pejorative, maybe something along the lines of "idiot" >or "jerk?" But your connecting it with the verb for dying might be a very >good lead. How about the related (transitive) verb mictia, "to kill, >mistreat someone?" Might it denote someone that ought to "drop dead?" > >So far as I can tell, Nahuatl is one of the most amazing languages that I >have ever run into. :) > >| Where is your Nahuatl-speaking employee from? > >Oh, somewheres north by northeast of Mexico City, a hundred (?) miles or >so. Something of a vagabond spirit that has finally chosen to settle >down, and has spent the last five or six years here in Oregon. ___________________________________ Lidia Gomez, Edmundo Gutierrez, Bilha, Adrian 3 Oriente 850-E, C. P. 72810 San Andres Cholula, Puebla MEXICO Tel: 52 (22) 473749 e-mail: lidia1 at pue1.telmex.net.mx From tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com Wed Oct 20 19:07:32 1999 From: tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:07:32 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: I went back to my database and looked for this possibility and I have found an alternate explanation for mimiqui..... >>From our previous emails and especially Joe's work we have the following: mimilihu(i) swell, wallow, column jc-82396 swell, wallow, column jc-07/12/96 morphemes swell, wallow, column jc-08/22/96 morphemes Here the previous word can be transformed in the following manner.... mimiliuh+qui...... This would explain the childish tantrum..... There might be a modern version of this due to 500 years of distortion.... but this I don't know.... Just the facts..... Although there is one contradictory piece of data, also from Joe's work: mimihcatzitzintin finados; muertos (dead people; deceased ones) Santa Ana Tlacotenco jc->11/5/96 mimihqueh difuntos (dead people) Santa Ana Tlacotenco jc->11/5/96 ximocui.... Tezozomoc -----Original Message----- From: lidia1 at pue1.telmex.net.mx [mailto:lidia1 at pue1.telmex.net.mx] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 10:56 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Richard: I'm sorry my english is not very good but here I go: In the nahuatl area of Mexico we use the word "mimiqui" to describe a childish behaviour. Mimiqui, as someone has already pointed out, is related to the verb to die. This is because toddlers who need attention, sometimes because they are so spoiled or jealous of having a new baby at home for instance, cry a lot in a way like throwing a tra-trum (I read this word once long ago) . They make a deep aspiration for cryin and then suddenly stop breathing, got blue and their eyes go white. Here you can see the relation to the verb to die. The tra-trum is over when you sprink some cold water on the child face. Pediatrician have a technical word for this behaviour: "espasmo del solloso" (I couldn't find the word in english). According to experts in parent counseling the' espasmo del solloso' stops as soon as the child is sure that he or she is loved, and you can help a lot if just ignore the kid when is having the "mimiqui", because the circle "espasmo del solloso"-attention is broken. I am a mother myself and believe me when I say that it does work. We also apply the word "mimiqui" to adults who are always in a URGE for attention, doing silly, childish, very annoying, but harmless things. By harmless I mean that their behaviour is not violent or agresive in any way, just VERY annoying. However, I wouldn't say that a "mimiqui" guy is "disfunctional" in some way. Perhaps for nahuatl and mexican culture there is plenty of room for patterns of behaviour that don't fit with the establishment, as long as they are not harming someone else. Anyway, the word "mimiqui" is not pejorative, well, lets say that it depends on the context: to who, when, how, etc. I thing your employee was refering to this when he called the costumer's behaviour "mimiqui". There are some other words for adult behaviour that have their roots in nahuatl, for instance "chipil" which is applied to a person that is always uneasy, in bad mood, unhappy, nothing seems to please him or her, and extremely attached to his or her mother ( this is a typical pattern of behaviour in the relation machos-mexican wives-mother in law ). Chipil, when applied to a toddler describes the behavior and mood of a child whose mother is expecting a baby or just had a new one. Chipil relates only to the relation with the mother, the need for being always the favorite, to be reasure of mom's love, and the awareness of having to share mom's love and attention with sibils (which is very unpleasent for kids by the way). Any clue about the meaning of chipil in nahuatl? Furthermore, there are other words in nahuatl that refer to childish behaviour, for instance, "miate" when refering to small kids. I don't recall the word in nahuatl but the translation into spanish is "pedo" (sorry!). According to Luis Reyes this means that kids are like "pedos": always there, always annoying but you have to live with them. In nahuatl culture kids are seen in a rather different way, thing in the word "escuicle" (perro) applied to kids, for instance. Luis Reyes always says: "los ninnos son unos cabrones", and there is not a pejorative meaning in the statement, but rather a different way of looking at child behaviour. Luis Reyes has some amazing stories about kids, child behaviour and their relation with adults within the nahua culture. Once he was telling us about the day he was reading to kids in a primary school part of Sahagun' s work, that when the father adresses to his son. The answer of these kids to the nahuatl discourse was just amazing, words that we could analize in the most brilliant academic way, for nahua kids have a concrete significance that can go far beyond of what we could expect from our "academic" understanding of the nahua words. Saludos, Lidia. > >Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's "mimiki" (however >you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, and seems to bear >the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, perhaps a long i. >I wonder if it is pejorative, maybe something along the lines of "idiot" >or "jerk?" But your connecting it with the verb for dying might be a very >good lead. How about the related (transitive) verb mictia, "to kill, >mistreat someone?" Might it denote someone that ought to "drop dead?" > >So far as I can tell, Nahuatl is one of the most amazing languages that I >have ever run into. :) > >| Where is your Nahuatl-speaking employee from? > >Oh, somewheres north by northeast of Mexico City, a hundred (?) miles or >so. Something of a vagabond spirit that has finally chosen to settle >down, and has spent the last five or six years here in Oregon. ___________________________________ Lidia Gomez, Edmundo Gutierrez, Bilha, Adrian 3 Oriente 850-E, C. P. 72810 San Andres Cholula, Puebla MEXICO Tel: 52 (22) 473749 e-mail: lidia1 at pue1.telmex.net.mx From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx Wed Oct 20 19:57:38 1999 From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:57:38 -0600 Subject: tlaskamati Message-ID: I ran into the following predicament the other day: "Thank you" in modern Huastecan nahuatl is "tlaskamati", which I usume is related to the classical "tlazocamati". The problem is that classical "tlazocamati" conjugates as "nimitztlazocamati", "I thank you". But in Veracruz today, you can say "titlaskamati", "I thank you", and "intlaskamati", "I thank you-all" ("in" is the second person plural subject). This looks more to me like the classical form, "tinechicnelih", "You have befriended me = I thank you", where the thanked person conjugates the verb. (By the way, I know this isn't actually "conjugation". What is it called in languages like nahuatl?). What is going on here? John Sullivan Doctorado en Historia Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas From dmendell at centurytel.net Thu Oct 21 11:42:39 1999 From: dmendell at centurytel.net (Mendell) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 05:42:39 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: How can I subscribe to the Aztlan List? Susan Mendell ICQ# 18164759 At 07:09 PM 10/18/99 -0600, you wrote: >Jackie, >Don't unsubscribe yet. I cannot begin to describe how much I have learned >just "listening-in". The knowlege collected in the minds on this list is >absolutely amazing, and if you are really interested in ancient Meso.. >cultures you would do well to subscribe to Aztlan as well. And feel free to >ask questions on subjects that interest you. Maybe there is someone out >there just itching to share the same interests. Calender and mysticism, eh? >Mike Gaby >San Diego > > >>From: "Meloche, Jackie" >>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >>To: Multiple recipients of list >>Subject: RE: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) >>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:27:15 -0600 >> >>You people are all way ahead of me. I have always been fascinated by >>Aztecs, but I don't have your expertise. I mostly study their culture and >>calendar and mysticism. >> How do I get removed from the list? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Craig Berry [mailto:cberry at cinenet.net] >> Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 11:12 AM >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Re: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook >>customer?) >> >> On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: >> >> > Richard Haly wrote: >> > | I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, we called >>such people Los >> > | Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said something like >>"miquic" (a dead >> > | person) implying that he did not belong in this world. >> > >> > Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's >>"mimiki" (however >> > you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, >>and seems to bear >> > the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, >>perhaps a long i. >> >> Sounds like a distorted plural for "dead people" -- which >>seems >> appropriate. >> >> -- >> | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net >> --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html >> | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them >> a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From wmiller at uakron.edu Thu Oct 21 14:11:40 1999 From: wmiller at uakron.edu (William Miller) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:11:40 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: To subscribe to Aztlan send the e-mail to listserv at listserv.louisville.edu. This address is for commands to subscribe, unsubscribe, etc. Send messages to the list to Aztlan at listserv.louisville.edu. The command to subscribe is (put this line and nothing else in the body of the message, nothing in the subject line): Subscribe Aztlan Your-first-name Your-last-name Bill At 05:45 AM 10/21/99 -0600, Mendell wrote: >How can I subscribe to the Aztlan List? > >Susan Mendell >ICQ# 18164759 > >At 07:09 PM 10/18/99 -0600, you wrote: >>Jackie, >>Don't unsubscribe yet. I cannot begin to describe how much I have learned >>just "listening-in". The knowlege collected in the minds on this list is >>absolutely amazing, and if you are really interested in ancient Meso.. >>cultures you would do well to subscribe to Aztlan as well. And feel free to >>ask questions on subjects that interest you. Maybe there is someone out >>there just itching to share the same interests. Calender and mysticism, eh? >>Mike Gaby >>San Diego >> >> >>>From: "Meloche, Jackie" >>>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >>>To: Multiple recipients of list >>>Subject: RE: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) >>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:27:15 -0600 >>> >>>You people are all way ahead of me. I have always been fascinated by >>>Aztecs, but I don't have your expertise. I mostly study their culture and >>>calendar and mysticism. >>> How do I get removed from the list? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Craig Berry [mailto:cberry at cinenet.net] >>> Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 11:12 AM >>> To: Multiple recipients of list >>> Subject: Re: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook >>>customer?) >>> >>> On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: >>> >>> > Richard Haly wrote: >>> > | I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, we called >>>such people Los >>> > | Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said something like >>>"miquic" (a dead >>> > | person) implying that he did not belong in this world. >>> > >>> > Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's >>>"mimiki" (however >>> > you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, >>>and seems to bear >>> > the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, >>>perhaps a long i. >>> >>> Sounds like a distorted plural for "dead people" -- which >>>seems >>> appropriate. >>> >>> -- >>> | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net >>> --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html >>> | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them >>> a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> > > > From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 21 16:14:15 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:14:15 -0600 Subject: AZ: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: Listeros: One of my students is researching the practice of child sacrifice and is stuck on the issue as to where the children came from. As I don't know either (per my speculation in answer to her query below), I thought I see what y'all might have on this. If you respond to the list, I'll forward things. Thank You Richard Haly >Dear Professor Haly, > As we discussed in class, I'm going to write my paper on sacrifices of > children. From what I have read so far, it seems that Aztecs sacrificed > children to the rain god and maize god, which was also associated with rain. > It seemed to me, that they sacrificed children instead of adults because > children were very valuable, and Aztecs needed to please the rain god > because rain was needed for crops, and so for survival. However, I'm > interested to find out what kind of atmosphere was associated with taking or > buying children from their mothers. I can't believe that mothers-even if > they believed in gods-would do it voluntarily. Please let me know if there > is some literature about it , or maybe since you know Aztecs better than me, > maybe you can help me to speculate about it. Thank you > Eva Lowe > Dear Eva: This sounds good. Looking at the festivals in Florentine Codex will certainly give you more context and help you sort out the logic of such practices. Look for equivalences. Things that can stand for one another or replace one another. This leads to the interesting issue as to where the children come from. Something must "replace" them. I agree that parents probably didn't give up children voluntarily tho' their may have been some institutionalized way for all this to happen. They also may have been very ill-behaved children as these could become slaves. Yet this doesn't ring quite true either as it sort of taints their acceptability. It could have been as a "punishment" for the parents in that they might have gone so far in debt, say by gambling, that the children were lost... I don't know a specific source that details all this but you might search for articles in the library database on "child sacrifice" or look at one of the works that deals with Aztec slavery. Richard Haly From tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com Thu Oct 21 16:28:54 1999 From: tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:28:54 -0600 Subject: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: consider the book "eating lanscape" I don't recall the author right now.. It gives a great description and interpretation to four ot the Tlaloc ceremonies... attention is paid to how and why children were selected... Tezozomoc -----Original Message----- From: Richard Haly [mailto:rhaly at ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 9:14 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: AZ: Child-sacrifice Listeros: One of my students is researching the practice of child sacrifice and is stuck on the issue as to where the children came from. As I don't know either (per my speculation in answer to her query below), I thought I see what y'all might have on this. If you respond to the list, I'll forward things. Thank You Richard Haly >Dear Professor Haly, > As we discussed in class, I'm going to write my paper on sacrifices of > children. From what I have read so far, it seems that Aztecs sacrificed > children to the rain god and maize god, which was also associated with rain. > It seemed to me, that they sacrificed children instead of adults because > children were very valuable, and Aztecs needed to please the rain god > because rain was needed for crops, and so for survival. However, I'm > interested to find out what kind of atmosphere was associated with taking or > buying children from their mothers. I can't believe that mothers-even if > they believed in gods-would do it voluntarily. Please let me know if there > is some literature about it , or maybe since you know Aztecs better than me, > maybe you can help me to speculate about it. Thank you > Eva Lowe > Dear Eva: This sounds good. Looking at the festivals in Florentine Codex will certainly give you more context and help you sort out the logic of such practices. Look for equivalences. Things that can stand for one another or replace one another. This leads to the interesting issue as to where the children come from. Something must "replace" them. I agree that parents probably didn't give up children voluntarily tho' their may have been some institutionalized way for all this to happen. They also may have been very ill-behaved children as these could become slaves. Yet this doesn't ring quite true either as it sort of taints their acceptability. It could have been as a "punishment" for the parents in that they might have gone so far in debt, say by gambling, that the children were lost... I don't know a specific source that details all this but you might search for articles in the library database on "child sacrifice" or look at one of the works that deals with Aztec slavery. Richard Haly From heatherhess at hotmail.com Thu Oct 21 16:43:13 1999 From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:43:13 -0600 Subject: AZ: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: Just a note on child sacrifice - lately I was researching Northern Africa - Tanzania to be exact - due to my interest in the Goddess Tanit - as well in Tanzania mass burials of children have been found - just a link to the chain of past civilizations connecting to the future! Heather >From: Richard Haly >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: AZ: Child-sacrifice >Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:14:33 -0600 > >Listeros: > >One of my students is researching the practice of child sacrifice and is >stuck on the issue as to where the children came from. As I don't know >either (per my speculation in answer to her query below), I thought I see >what y'all might have on this. If you respond to the list, I'll forward >things. > >Thank You > >Richard Haly > > > >Dear Professor Haly, > > As we discussed in class, I'm going to write my paper on sacrifices of > > children. From what I have read so far, it seems that Aztecs sacrificed > > children to the rain god and maize god, which was also associated with >rain. > > It seemed to me, that they sacrificed children instead of adults because > > children were very valuable, and Aztecs needed to please the rain god > > because rain was needed for crops, and so for survival. However, I'm > > interested to find out what kind of atmosphere was associated with >taking or > > buying children from their mothers. I can't believe that mothers-even if > > they believed in gods-would do it voluntarily. Please let me know if >there > > is some literature about it , or maybe since you know Aztecs better than >me, > > maybe you can help me to speculate about it. Thank you > > Eva Lowe > > >Dear Eva: > >This sounds good. Looking at the festivals in Florentine Codex will >certainly give you more context and help you sort out the logic of such >practices. Look for equivalences. Things that can stand for one another or >replace one another. This leads to the interesting issue as to where the >children come from. Something must "replace" them. I agree that parents >probably didn't give up children voluntarily tho' their may have been some >institutionalized way for all this to happen. They also may have been very >ill-behaved children as these could become slaves. Yet this doesn't ring >quite true either as it sort of taints their acceptability. It could have >been as a "punishment" for the parents in that they might have gone so far >in debt, say by gambling, that the children were lost... I don't know a >specific source that details all this but you might search for articles in >the library database on "child sacrifice" or look at one of the works that >deals with Aztec slavery. > > >Richard Haly > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Ian.Robertson at asu.edu Thu Oct 21 16:58:43 1999 From: Ian.Robertson at asu.edu (Ian Robertson) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:58:43 -0600 Subject: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: The new book "Eating Landscape" is by Philip Arnold, Eduardo Matos and David Carrasco. An article by Aveni should also be of interest to Richard's student: Aveni, Anthony F. 1991 Mapping the Ritual Landscape: Debt Payment to Tlaloc During the Month of Atlcahualo. In "To Change Place: Aztec Ceremonial Landscapes", edited by D. Carrasco, pp. 58-73. University Press of Colorado, Niwot, Colorado. -------------------- Ian Robertson Dept. of Anthropology Arizona State University Tempe, AZ, 85287-2402 Ian.Robertson at asu.edu -----Original Message----- From: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]On Behalf Of Tezozomoc Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 9:31 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Child-sacrifice consider the book "eating lanscape" I don't recall the author right now.. It gives a great description and interpretation to four ot the Tlaloc ceremonies... attention is paid to how and why children were selected... Tezozomoc -----Original Message----- From: Richard Haly [mailto:rhaly at ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 9:14 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: AZ: Child-sacrifice Listeros: One of my students is researching the practice of child sacrifice and is stuck on the issue as to where the children came from. As I don't know either (per my speculation in answer to her query below), I thought I see what y'all might have on this. If you respond to the list, I'll forward things. Thank You Richard Haly >Dear Professor Haly, > As we discussed in class, I'm going to write my paper on sacrifices of > children. From what I have read so far, it seems that Aztecs sacrificed > children to the rain god and maize god, which was also associated with rain. > It seemed to me, that they sacrificed children instead of adults because > children were very valuable, and Aztecs needed to please the rain god > because rain was needed for crops, and so for survival. However, I'm > interested to find out what kind of atmosphere was associated with taking or > buying children from their mothers. I can't believe that mothers-even if > they believed in gods-would do it voluntarily. Please let me know if there > is some literature about it , or maybe since you know Aztecs better than me, > maybe you can help me to speculate about it. Thank you > Eva Lowe > Dear Eva: This sounds good. Looking at the festivals in Florentine Codex will certainly give you more context and help you sort out the logic of such practices. Look for equivalences. Things that can stand for one another or replace one another. This leads to the interesting issue as to where the children come from. Something must "replace" them. I agree that parents probably didn't give up children voluntarily tho' their may have been some institutionalized way for all this to happen. They also may have been very ill-behaved children as these could become slaves. Yet this doesn't ring quite true either as it sort of taints their acceptability. It could have been as a "punishment" for the parents in that they might have gone so far in debt, say by gambling, that the children were lost... I don't know a specific source that details all this but you might search for articles in the library database on "child sacrifice" or look at one of the works that deals with Aztec slavery. Richard Haly From ECOLING at aol.com Thu Oct 21 17:01:33 1999 From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:01:33 -0600 Subject: AZ: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: Richard Haly: You may know that human sacrifice has been discussed extensively on this and other lists, and keeps coming up again and again. It did occur. But it is usually sensationalized in our cultures, usually as a way of making money in the media, or of making ourselves feel how "superior" we are, of course neglecting the fact that in our own cultures it has occurred too, and if one uses a suitably general definition, not circularly designed to apply only to certain "manners" of sacrifice, still does (i.e. for symbolic or ritual value, not for eating because of nutritional needs). That means it is distorted, and its role in the society overemphasized. That is much of what "sensationalized" means. I would always discourage any relative newcomer, and any child, from dealing with this issue at all, until they have GREAT maturity, stability, presence of mind, ability to detect hidden assumptions and motivations behind how things are presented, and behind what is chosen to be presented and what is chosen to be omitted, etc. etc. In short, enormous sophistication. Otherwise, it ends up doing harm both to the modern people descended from the ancient people studied, and to the psyche of the student looking at the concept. Sincerely yours, Lloyd Anderson From heatherhess at hotmail.com Thu Oct 21 21:07:52 1999 From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:07:52 -0600 Subject: AZ: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: I agree whole heartedly! Heather >From: ECOLING at aol.com >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: AZ: Child-sacrifice >Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:01:46 -0600 > >Richard Haly: > >You may know that human sacrifice has been discussed extensively >on this and other lists, and keeps coming up again and again. > >It did occur. > >But it is usually sensationalized in our cultures, >usually as a way of making money in the media, >or of making ourselves feel how "superior" we are, >of course neglecting the fact that in our own cultures >it has occurred too, and if one uses a suitably general >definition, not circularly designed to apply only to certain >"manners" of sacrifice, still does >(i.e. for symbolic or ritual value, >not for eating because of nutritional needs). > >That means it is distorted, and its role in the society >overemphasized. >That is much of what "sensationalized" means. > >I would always discourage any relative newcomer, >and any child, from dealing with this issue at all, >until they have GREAT maturity, >stability, presence of mind, ability to detect hidden assumptions >and motivations behind how things are presented, >and behind what is chosen to be presented >and what is chosen to be omitted, etc. etc. > >In short, enormous sophistication. > >Otherwise, it ends up doing harm both to the modern >people descended from the ancient people studied, >and to the psyche of the student looking at the concept. > >Sincerely yours, >Lloyd Anderson > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jcarlson at deans.umd.edu Thu Oct 21 22:41:04 1999 From: jcarlson at deans.umd.edu (John B. Carlson) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:41:04 -0600 Subject: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: Ian robertson replied: The new book "Eating Landscape" is by Philip Arnold, Eduardo Matos and David Carrasco. An article by Aveni should also be of interest to Richard's student: Aveni, Anthony F. 1991 Mapping the Ritual Landscape: Debt Payment to Tlaloc During the Month of Atlcahualo. In "To Change Place: Aztec Ceremonial Landscapes", edited by D. Carrasco, pp. 58-73. University Press of Colorado, Niwot, Colorado. -------------------- Ian Robertson ************** Sorry Ian, There is a misconception in your citation. Eating Landscape: Aztec and European Occupation of Tlalocan is by Philip P. Arnold only. University Press of colorado, Niwot, 1999 You are think of a different book, probably To Change Place, which is edited by David Carrasco, only. John Carlson From Ian.Robertson at asu.edu Thu Oct 21 23:07:43 1999 From: Ian.Robertson at asu.edu (Ian Robertson) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:07:43 -0600 Subject: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: John, thanks for correcting me as to the authorship of "Eating Landscape"; I noted my error shortly after my last post, having accepted uncritically information provided by that crucial source of information on new books, Amazon.com. Philip Arnold is indeed the sole author, as I found when attempting to locate the book at the university library. Anyway, it's a book I look forward to reading! Ian -------------------- Ian Robertson Dept. of Anthropology Arizona State University Tempe, AZ, 85287-2402 Ian.Robertson at asu.edu -----Original Message----- From: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]On Behalf Of John B. Carlson Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 3:44 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Child-sacrifice Ian robertson replied: The new book "Eating Landscape" is by Philip Arnold, Eduardo Matos and David Carrasco. An article by Aveni should also be of interest to Richard's student: Aveni, Anthony F. 1991 Mapping the Ritual Landscape: Debt Payment to Tlaloc During the Month of Atlcahualo. In "To Change Place: Aztec Ceremonial Landscapes", edited by D. Carrasco, pp. 58-73. University Press of Colorado, Niwot, Colorado. -------------------- Ian Robertson ************** Sorry Ian, There is a misconception in your citation. Eating Landscape: Aztec and European Occupation of Tlalocan is by Philip P. Arnold only. University Press of colorado, Niwot, 1999 You are think of a different book, probably To Change Place, which is edited by David Carrasco, only. John Carlson From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 22 00:18:32 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:18:32 -0600 Subject: AZ: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: > I would always discourage any relative newcomer, > and any child, from dealing with this issue at all, > until they have GREAT maturity, > stability, presence of mind, ability to detect hidden assumptions > and motivations behind how things are presented, > and behind what is chosen to be presented > and what is chosen to be omitted, etc. etc. > > In short, enormous sophistication. > > Otherwise, it ends up doing harm both to the modern > people descended from the ancient people studied, > and to the psyche of the student looking at the concept. As it happens my course is an Upper-Division critical thinking course and it is precisely this sort of thing that I aim to teach. If anyone wd like the syllabus before making their own assumptions, I'll gladly send one. As for modern people offended by this I believe that is mostly non-Nahuas. Those Nahuas with whom I have spoken with for 25 years (in Nahuatl) never seemed particularly PC about it. Nor am I. If it happened, it can/oughta be discussed. The whole point is HOW? How can one make sense of this cultural phenomenon? I have my ideas and evidence for my approach which I will not necessarily bring up here given what usually happens when this topic is broached. Hint: it was economic. As far as cultural relativism goes, i.e. that any cultural practice is legitimate within its own culture. That is simply our own cultural assumption and it does not work when faced with a less tolerant culture. Try drinking a beer on a streetcorner in Riyadh. Moreover, the "wisdom" of cultural relativity is open to question as I can't condone female circumcision, human sacrifice, or a certain war in VietNam just because it's what culture does. Culture, being human, has every reason to be messed up. Gregory Bateson's discussions of schismogenesis are apt here. Sorry for all this, but these kinds of discussions rub me the wrong way more than whether Anasazi were cannibals, my Irish ancestors were slaveholders (or slaves). Best, Richard Haly From ECOLING at aol.com Fri Oct 22 01:58:11 1999 From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:58:11 -0600 Subject: ? AGAIN Child Sacrifice Message-ID: [The original message was posted on the Nahua-l list, and then later on the AZTLAN list. This is the same reply, posted also to each list. Mr. Haly has responded that his course is an upper-division course intended to teach critical thinking. That removes one of the most serious problems. But Mr. Haly's response mis-estimates my reasons, which are NOT political correctness, NOT an aversion to the topic, and NOT based on cultural relativism They are simply based on observation of what happens when this issue is sensationalized, as it almost always is in the media. The questions Mr. Haly asked have been asked before on several lists, and there are many files which can be searched there. We should not have to go through this yet again. The way in which the qustion was initially posed was very open-ended. It did not suggest anything about a more sophisticated critical-thinking approach to this. If Mr. Haly does have a new approach which uses more critical thinking and is less vulnerable to being sensationalized, it would be a great boon to all of us to have it available. I have my doubts, based simply on the extreme power of the sensationalizing enterprise, but that is simply a bad taste left over from past experience. Someone MAY come up with a new way of handling this issue. There are indeed many peoples who believe the media treatment of their ancient ancestors is just one more way of denying them respect as normal human beings, that it damages their interests.] Lloyd Anderson Ecological Linguistics From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Fri Oct 22 03:34:14 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:34:14 -0600 Subject: AZ: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: Richard Haly wrote: | As for modern people offended by this I believe that is mostly non-Nahuas. It invariably occurs among those that have not been exposed to the concept of the 'deodandum' --- heck, a word that isn't even in most English dictionaries, but at least it is in the Oxford English Dictionary. Now, stripped of its legalistic trappings (as a token of civil forfeiture), the 'deodandum' was a representation of the extent of just how much one rally loves and appreciates the thing being given up, and how much one also appreciates the thing asked for. (Gods do not indulge them that offer trivialities for trivialities; great things demand great prices.) At least among the Ancient Romans they had a formulaic saying that went with the 'deodandum' --- "do't des" (do ut des) --- "I give that thou givest." BTW, there was recently a great show on the Discovery Channel about the sacrifices of (sometimes (?) stillborn) babies in Carthage, and cemetaries dedicated just to these kinds of offerings... Anyway, I am just starting to learn Nahuatl; forgive me for posting this to the mailing list --- it would be a lot easier for all concerned if there were a newsgroup in Usenet for questions like this, so advanced people can skip past it... Do or did they have a word for "deodandum?" Would it be connected with the verb mani (to give or lay out, Latin licet pandi) and teotl (god or deity, Latin deus), perhaps with an adverb of location like nican (here, Latin hic) joining in somehow? From cristi at ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 24 18:05:29 1999 From: cristi at ix.netcom.com (cristi at ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 12:05:29 -0600 Subject: ? AGAIN Child Sacrifice Message-ID: Some interesting points have been made regarding the topic of this student's research, and I have to say I agree with all of them, to some degree. As someone who wants to write a fictional account set during those times, I would be *fascinated* to learn anything that can be found about exactly how the sacrifice of children affected the common people, especially their parents, and exactly where those children came from. It would help me to write realistically. But speaking on the issue in general, minus my own special interests, I have to wonder why the focus is always on the Azteca. After all, the practice has existed all over the world at different points in time. The Meditteranean/Near East cultures, the very people who originated Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, all practiced child sacrifice (and sacrifice of other humans as well) assiduously at different points in their history--points that seem to correlate well with the Aztecans during their own sacrificial phase. In view of this, the continual focus on Aztecan sacrifice, when there are so many other things to learn, seems pretty Cortez-ian. Cristi From Yaoxochitl at aol.com Sun Oct 24 20:57:56 1999 From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 14:57:56 -0600 Subject: ? AGAIN Child Sacrifice Message-ID: I agree with u Cristi; this singular image perpetrated by people gives the Mexica this repulsive reputation. The plain truth is, that all cultures practiced human sacrifice. It seems the Spaniards and Western civilization want to grossly exaggerate the frequency of human sacrifice in the "New World" to justify their own cruel and brutal attrocities towards Indigenous cultures. Sincerely, Ahuitzotl From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Sun Oct 24 21:57:40 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 15:57:40 -0600 Subject: Numbers - Counting Message-ID: Referring to Thelma Sullivan's Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar, pages 150 and following, an account of the Nahuatl numeral system is given. How is this different from Modern Nahuatl? For instance, on pages 153 and 154 Sullivan indicates that the numerals can be combined with exactly 4 nouns, using them as suffixes, namely: tetl "stone," for round things, pantli "flag," for things that can be lined up, tlamantli "thing," for people or objects, and olotl "corncob," for things that can be rolled. Has Modern Nahuatl dropped these or changed them? What are the differences between Classical and Modern Nahuatl with regard to their way of counting things? From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Oct 25 02:35:49 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:35:49 -0600 Subject: still a few questions (fwd) Message-ID: After a four day trip, I found that my message of 20 Oct had been in escrow with repeated attempts to deliver without success, so I am forwarding it with optimism. Joe ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:54:57 -0500 (EST) From: "R. Joe Campbell" To: Leonel Hermida Cc: nahuat-list Subject: Re: still a few questions Tlen tai, Leonel, I put *** where I have a comment... > quiza = come out, emerge > quix-tia (some phonetic peculiarity here)= cause to be(come) *** On the semantics of quixtia, I like to think of it as being an event rather than a being. quixtia is commonly used to talk about extraction -- to take something out of the house, your pocket, etc. --Even to talk about taking someone out of office or one's self out of a bad situation (e.g., battle)... oninotzinquixtih -- I backed out. The z to x change is called palatalization (z and t are dentals and x and ch are their respective palatals). Somebody else can explain this better than I can, but basically a now relatively opaque historical process palatalized some stems in their causative and benefactive (some people call it applicative) forms, so we learn their alternative forms by memory, not as the result of some regular phonological process. > I have two more questions: is it safe to put mana = offer? (I could not > find it in my basic morpheme list) ( I know that mictia= kill is a causative > of miqui=die). *** The basic morpheme is mani; it forms its causative by adding the causative -a. I believe it best to think that there are 2 causative -a's: one that absorbs the preceding vowel and the other that does not. (in inverse order in the following examples) pozoni it boils nicpozonia i cause it to boil, i boil it nicalaqui i enter niccalaquia i insert it, i cause it to go in mani it lies extended (like water in a puddle) quimana he lays it down (causes it to lie flat) The causative mana is then generalized to mean put and is frequently used to mean place on the alter as an offering. temi it fills up (e.g. a jug) tictema you fill it, you cause it to fill > Does tla- mean 'something' and is it direct object to mana > and mictia? Shall one conclude that the direct object must be expressed > in the (transitive) verbal 'complex' even if this is in a 'dummy' way > (tla-), so to speak? *** Yes, Nahuatl *requires* (almost always) the expression of objects on transitive verbs, so if there is no *specific* object, we use the non-specific ones: nic-cua in nacatl I eat (the) meat (c is a redundant reference to nacatl ni-tla-cua I eat ni-c-mictia noyaouh I kill my enemy (just an imaginary example) ni-te-mictia I kill, I kill somebody > Or, putting it in another way, has a transitive verb to be made to 'agree' > both with its subject (prefix 'zero' in this case) and with its direct > object (prefix tla- here)? *** Well put. > One more thing while I have your attention. It will be found perhaps too > trivial, but what are the functions of the particle 'in' which is ubiquitous > everywhere? *** This one is one I hope to see someone else's answer on first.... Best regards, Joe From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Oct 25 02:38:47 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:38:47 -0600 Subject: still a few questions (fwd) Message-ID: Same as preceding message........ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 11:28:58 -0500 (EST) From: "R. Joe Campbell" To: Leonel Hermida Cc: nahuat-list Subject: Re: still a few questions Leonel, Just a follow-up about causatives: this matching exercise combines what one knows, what one can guess, and leaves you with the residue to wonder about. *But* all of the answers are at the bottom, so you are left with no pain. Of course, you would spoil the fun for yourself if you peeked at the answers too early. I'm off today for a 3-4 day visit in Illinois and unfortunately I don't have access to e-mail there. Timottazqueh, Joe Causative Verbs exercise 01 1. caquia 1. he puts it 2. cololoa 2. it forms knots 3. mictilo 3. it is mixed 4. mixtia 4. it is sown 5. moneloa 5. he is killed 6. mopixoa 6. he loosens it 7. quimana 7. he piles it up 8. quitoma 8. he puts it in Causative Verbs exercise 02 1. matilia 1. abstain from it! 2. molinia 2. he pays something 3. moxeloa 3. he saddens someone 4. nitlate:nqui:xtia 4. it is split, divided 5. te:tlao:coltia 5. it melts 6. tlacoto:na 6. it moves 7. tlaxtla:hua 7. I pronounce something 8. xicmoca:hualti 8. he cuts something Causative Verbs exercise 03 1. cahxitia 1. he pours something out 2. catlilia 2. he twists something 3. coni:tia 3. it provides him drink 4. monextia 4. he appears (he causes himself to appear) 5. quizaloa 5. he glues it 6. tetlatia 6. he has her drink it 7. tlachaya:hua 7. he makes someone hide 8. tlacoloa 8. he reaches it Causative Verbs exercise 04 1. conihtlacoah 1. I tame it, I domesticate it 2. hualxinachpixoah 2. he angers s.o. 3. mopilhuahtia 3. he notifies s.o. of s.t. 4. nictlacahcihuitia 4. they harm it 5. nimitzpahtia 5. they let him carry it on his back 6. quima:ma:ltiah 6. they scatter seeds 7. te:cuala:niltia 7. it begets its young 8. te:tlamachi:tia 8. I cure you Causative Verbs exercise 05 1. ca:pitzaltiz 1. it gushes up, it spurts 2. compehualti 2. I embellish something 3. mocacalaquiah 3. he caused it to begin (began it) 4. motlahpaloa 4. he dares 5. nitlacualnextia 5. it will give him diarrhea 6. onmopiyazoa 6. they give her a necklace 7. quicozcatiah 7. they successively enter 8. tontlecahuiayah 8. they took him up  Causative Verbs exercise 06 1. conhuehcatiliah 1. it makes one weep 2. nicnamictia 2. I join it 3. quihui:caltiah 3. he causes s.o. to laugh 4. quintlacatiliah 4. he lifts it 5. quitlehco:ltia 5. it makes one salivate 6. te:cho:ctia 6. they defer it, they delay it 7. te:huezcatia 7. they give them human form 8. teiztlacmemeyaltia 8. they make him take it with him Causative Verbs exercise 07 1. nictlamela:hualtia 1. I injure someone with flowers 2. niquihnecuiltia 2. he makes something bitter 3. niquinnezo:ma:ltia 3. I cause him to smell it 4. nitexochimictia 4. I make it straight 5. quichichilia 5. I make them hate each other 6. quintlacualtia 6. he gives s.o. faith in s.t. 7. quitenectia 7. he makes it desirable to others 8. te:tlaneltoquitia 8. he provides them food Causative Verbs exercise 08 1. o:quimahuiztiliayah 1. he carries someone across the river 2. o:quimihxitiaya 2. he lowers s.t.; he digests 3. o:titlahuetzquitih 3. he makes someone arrive 4. quite:mi:tia 4. he woke them 5. te:ehcahuia 5. one who delivers babies 6. te:panahuia 6. they honored him 7. temi:xihuitiani 7. you caused laughter 8. tlatemohuia 8. he fills it Causative Verbs exercise 09 1. mocaxania 1. he builds a house for him 2. mochantia 2. he displays it, he shows it 3. moma:qui:xtiqueh 3. he dwells 4. mozcaltia 4. he has a relapse 5. o:quiqui:xtih 5. he is brought up, matured, educated 6. quicaltia 6. he makes someone sleep 7. quinextia 7. he removed it 8. te:cochi:tia 8. they escaped Causative Verbs exercise 10 1. mocoxonia 1. I make something chili-red 2. mocuicuicatia 2. he adds it, he mixes it in 3. nitlachichiloa 3. he causes s.t. to be fragrant 4. quicehuia 4. he kills him 5. quimaquia 5. he puts it on 6. quimictia 6. he sings 7. quina:mictia 7. it is pulverized, powdered 8. tlaahhuialia 8. it relieves it, it cools it  Causative Verbs exercise 11 1. cahualtilozqueh 1. he fulfills it; he testifies it 2. chololtiloz 2. he will be pursued 3. momauhtih 3. injury to the tongue 4. nenenepilcualtiliztli 4. she became frightened 5. quichipinia 5. they enlarge it 6. quihue:iliah 6. he drips it 7. quimicximimictia 7. he paralyzes their feet 8. quineltilia 8. they will be weaned Causative Verbs exercise 12 1. namechtlahpaloa 1. I feed it grains of maize 2. nictlaolcualtia 2. he causes s.t. to become hard 3. quicaquitia 3. I animate y'all 4. quinxotlaltiz 4. he causes s.o. to give s.t. to s.o. 5. quiyo:litiz 5. he informs him of it 6. te:te:tlamaqui:ltia 6. he will cause them to sprout 7. teihzotlaltia 7. he will put life into it 8. tlatetilia 8. it makes people vomit Causative Verbs exercise 13 1. anquipoloah 1. he causes s.t. to become sour 2. cuauhxeloa 2. he has them drink 3. mohuacaloa 3. he splits wood 4. moyahualoah 4. it is hollowed 5. quima:tlitia 5. they are arranged in a circle 6. quixhualtia 6. you dishonor yourself 7. timihzoloa 7. he causes it to sprout 8. tlaxocolia 8. y'all destroy it Causative Verbs exercise 14 1. caa:huiltiz 1. he kills dogs 2. conpaloltia 2. it rots it 3. itzcuinmictia 3. they trouble him 4. mopehualtia 4. he will amuse him 5. nea:huiltilo 5. she makes him taste it 6. netlamamaltilo 6. there is merry-making 7. quicocomoniah 7. there was carrying on their backs 8. quipalanaltia 8. they fight each other Causative Verbs exercise 15 1. compachoah 1. he bred dogs 2. contilinia 2. it is rolled 3. mochalaniah 3. they press it 4. momimiloa 4. I drill it, I perforate it 5. motzoyonia 5. he boils it 6. niccoyonia 6. he pulls it, draws on it 7. oitzcuinnemiti 7. it is cooked 8. quipozonia 8. they contend  Causative Verbs exercise 16 1. chichinolo 1. he is consumed by fire 2. conchololtiah 2. he is given the name 3. mitztololtizqueh 3. he makes someone weep 4. motocayotia 4. it blossoms 5. moxochyotia 5. they make it bloom 6. o:mozaloh 6. they pass over it 7. quicueponaltiah 7. they will make you swallow it 8. te:cho:qui:tia 8. it was mended, it was stuck together Causative Verbs exercise 17 1. a:qui:xtia 1. he causes s.o. to laugh 2. monamictia 2. he makes people laugh 3. moqui:xtia 3. it is extracted 4. motleyotia 4. I teach it (e.g., animal) 5. nicmachtia 5. he gets married 6. te:ahxitia 6. he is made famous 7. te:huezquitia 7. he presses out water 8. tehuetzquitia 8. he takes s.o., he makes s.o. arrive Causative Verbs exercise 18 1. momeyaltiah 1. I show it to you, I make you see it 2. moyolihtlacoa 2. he cleanses it, he makes it good 3. necochitiloh 3. he is offended 4. nimitzittitia 4. they are given human form 5. quica:hualtiayah 5. they are put to sleep 6. quicualtilia 6. they caused him to abandon it 7. quitlahuantia 7. they produce semen 8. tetlacatililoh 8. it makes him drunk Causative Verbs exercise 19 1. contlecuitiah 1. he honors himself 2. mocotzoyotia 2. he sprinkles it 3. momahuiztilia 3. I shame him 4. nicpinauhtia 4. he causes s.o. to close s.t. 5. quimpaquiltia 5. he dresses s.o. in something 6. quitzetzeloa 6. he gives them contentment 7. te:tlaque:miltia 7. it forms a resin 8. te:tlatzacui:ltia 8. they set it on fire  .R:E .S:6 .X:7 .XT:1 .XB:1 .L:66 Causative Verbs exercise key 1 1 mictilo he is killed 2 quitoma he loosens it 3 cololoa he piles it up 4 caquia he put it in 5 quimana he puts it 6 mixtia it forms knots 7 moneloa it is mixed 8 mopixoa it is sown Causative Verbs exercise key 2 1 moxeloa it is split, divided 2 matilia it melts 3 molinia it moves 4 te:tlao:coltia he saddens someone 5 tlaxtla:hua he pays something 6 xicmoca:hualti abstain from it! 7 tlacoto:na he cuts something 8 nitlate:nqui:xtia I pronounce something Causative Verbs exercise key 3 1 monextia he appears (he causes himself to appear) 2 quizaloa he glues it 3 coni:tia he has her drink it 4 tetlatia he makes someone hide 5 cahxitia he reaches it 6 tlacoloa he twists something 7 catlilia it provides him drink 8 tlachaya:hua he pours something out Causative Verbs exercise key 4 1 quima:ma:ltiah they let him carry it on his back 2 te:cuala:niltia he angers s.o. 3 te:tlamachi:tia he notifies s.o. of s.t. 4 hualxinachpixoah they scatter seeds 5 conihtlacoah they harm it 6 nictlacahcihuitia I tame it, I domesticate it 7 mopilhuahtia it begets its young 8 nimitzpahtia I cure you Causative Verbs exercise key 5 1 tontlecahuiayah they took him up 2 nitlacualnextia I embellish something 3 motlahpaloa he dares 4 compehualti he caused it to begin (began it) 5 ca:pitzaltiz it will give him diarrhea 6 mocacalaquiah they successively enter 7 quicozcatiah they give her a necklace 8 onmopiyazoa it gushes up, it spurts  Causative Verbs exercise key 6 1 quihui:caltiah they make him take it with him 2 te:huezcatia he causes s.o. to laugh 3 conhuehcatiliah they defer it, they delay it 4 quintlacatiliah they give them human form 5 teiztlacmemeyaltia it makes one salivate 6 quitlehco:ltia he lifts it 7 te:cho:ctia it makes one weep 8 nicnamictia I join it Causative Verbs exercise key 7 1 quitenectia he makes it desirable to others 2 quintlacualtia he provides them food 3 niquihnecuiltia I cause him to smell it 4 nictlamela:hualtia I make it straight 5 te:tlaneltoquitia he gives s.o. faith in s.t. 6 niquinnezo:ma:ltia I make them hate each other 7 quichichilia he makes something bitter 8 nitexochimictia I injure someone with flowers Causative Verbs exercise key 8 1 o:titlahuetzquitih you caused laughter 2 te:panahuia he carries someone across the river 3 tlatemohuia he lowers s.t.; he digests 4 te:ehcahuia he makes someone arrive 5 temi:xihuitiani one who delivers babies 6 o:quimahuiztiliayah they honored him 7 o:quimihxitiaya he woke them 8 quite:mi:tia he fills it Causative Verbs exercise key 9 1 te:cochi:tia he makes someone sleep 2 o:quiqui:xtih he removed it 3 moma:qui:xtiqueh they escaped 4 quicaltia he builds a house for him 5 quinextia he displays it, he shows it 6 mochantia he dwells 7 mocaxania he has a relapse 8 mozcaltia he is brought up, matured, educated Causative Verbs exercise key 10 1 quimictia he kills him 2 quimaquia he puts it on 3 mocoxonia it is pulverized, powdered 4 quicehuia it relieves it, it cools it 5 tlaahhuialia he causes s.t. to be fragrant 6 mocuicuicatia he sings 7 nitlachichiloa I make something chili-red 8 quina:mictia he adds it, he mixes it in  Causative Verbs exercise key 11 1 momauhtih she became frightened 2 nenenepilcualtiliztli injury to the tongue 3 quineltilia he fulfills it; he testifies it 4 quihue:iliah they enlarge it 5 chololtiloz he will be pursued 6 cahualtilozqueh they will be weaned 7 quimicximimictia he paralyzes their feet 8 quichipinia he drips it Causative Verbs exercise key 12 1 quicaquitia he informs him of it 2 quiyo:litiz he will put life into it 3 namechtlahpaloa I animate y'all 4 teihzotlaltia it makes people vomit 5 quinxotlaltiz he will cause them to sprout 6 te:te:tlamaqui:ltia he causes s.o. to give s.t. to s.o. 7 nictlaolcualtia I feed it grains of maize 8 tlatetilia he causes s.t. to become hard Causative Verbs exercise key 13 1 tlaxocolia he causes s.t. to become sour 2 quima:tlitia he has them drink 3 cuauhxeloa he splits wood 4 mohuacaloa it is hollowed 5 timihzoloa you dishonor yourself 6 moyahualoah they are arranged in a circle 7 anquipoloah y'all destroy it 8 quixhualtia he causes it to sprout Causative Verbs exercise key 14 1 conpaloltia she makes him taste it 2 mopehualtia they fight each other 3 nea:huiltilo there is merry-making 4 caa:huiltiz he will amuse him 5 netlamamaltilo there was carrying on their backs 6 itzcuinmictia he kills dogs 7 quicocomoniah they trouble him 8 quipalanaltia it rots it Causative Verbs exercise key 15 1 niccoyonia I drill it, I perforate it 2 quipozonia he boils it 3 contilinia he pulls it, draws on it 4 motzoyonia it is cooked 5 mochalaniah they contend 6 oitzcuinnemiti he bred dogs 7 momimiloa it is rolled 8 compachoah they press it  Causative Verbs exercise key 16 1 o:mozaloh it was mended, it was stuck together 2 chichinolo he is consumed by fire 3 conchololtiah they pass over it 4 mitztololtizqueh they will make you swallow it 5 quicueponaltiah they make it bloom 6 motocayotia he is given the name 7 moxochyotia it blossoms 8 te:cho:qui:tia he makes someone weep Causative Verbs exercise key 17 1 te:huezquitia he causes s.o. to laugh 2 tehuetzquitia he makes people laugh 3 nicmachtia I teach it (e.g., animal) 4 monamictia he gets married 5 motleyotia he is made famous 6 a:qui:xtia he presses out water 7 te:ahxitia he takes s.o., he makes s.o. arrive 8 moqui:xtia it is extracted Causative Verbs exercise key 18 1 momeyaltiah they produce semen 2 quicualtilia he cleanses it, he makes it good 3 tetlacatililoh they are given human form 4 necochitiloh they are put to sleep 5 moyolihtlacoa he is offended 6 nimitzittitia I show it to you, I make you see it 7 quica:hualtiayah they caused him to abandon it 8 quitlahuantia it makes him drunk Causative Verbs exercise key 19 1 te:tlaque:miltia he dresses s.o. in something 2 nicpinauhtia I shame him 3 quimpaquiltia he gives them contentment 4 contlecuitiah they set it on fire 5 mocotzoyotia it forms a resin 6 te:tlatzacui:ltia he causes s.o. to close s.t. 7 quitzetzeloa he sprinkles it 8 momahuiztilia he honors himself From leonelhermida at netc.pt Wed Oct 27 14:31:08 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:31:08 -0600 Subject: Fw: just a quick question Message-ID: I'm forwarding here another message of mine that I thing was NOT delivered at all. Sorry for the inconvenience. Leonel -----Original Message----- From: Leonel Hermida To: nahuat-list Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 7:57 PM Subject: just a quick question >Hi, > >I just happen to come across the following: > >(...) oncan quicenquixtiaya in tlatlaloque: >auh in ihcuac oquicenquixtique, niman oncan quinmictiaya: >auh in ihcuac in oquimonmictique, niman (...) >( there they gathered them together [the sacrificial victims >called] tlalocs: and when they had gathered them together, >then they slew them there: and when they had slain them, >then etc.) > >Would someone be kind enough to explain to me why is it >found twice qui- instead of the expected quin-/quim- , >namely 'quicenquixtiaya' (they gathered them together) and >'oquicenquixtique' (they had gathered them together)? After all >"tlatlaloque" is plural isn't it? Are those mere 'typos' >or is there an explanation for them that I can't see? And if so, >why then the "correct" quinmictiaya and oquimonmictique? > >Tlazocamati. > >Leonel > > > > > > > > > > From leonelhermida at netc.pt Wed Oct 27 14:34:51 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:34:51 -0600 Subject: possessive and qualifying relashionship in Nahuatl Message-ID: Hi all, Please allow me to ask here a question I'm not yet able to decide due to my insufficient knowledge of the Nahuatl language. As far as I know there are two kinds of 'genitive relationship' between nouns, namely what I shall call the 'possessive relationship' and the 'qualifying relationship': the first appearing in 'the Director's room' or in 'the door of my house', the second in 'guest-room' or 'house-door'. In English the first can be expressed by the preposition 'of' or by the 'possessive case', the second by making a compound word where the elements are more or less glued together according to use and sense. Now, I have till now never heard in Nahuatl about any preposition (or postposition) meaning 'of', neither have I found trace of a genitive case in the language. I have been finding instead an original means of expressing the former, namely by putting in sequence the nouns involved and using a possessive prefix to refer back to the possessing noun, as if one said "the Director his-room" or "my-house its-door"; and the latter by making invariably a compound word just as in English or German but unlike Spanish or French where one founds a preposition for both constructions. My question is: how are the two constructions made in Nahuatl? Do the aforementioned mechanisms apply always, or are there other means (I have not been aware of, thus far) that can be made use of? Some examples of Nahuatl usage should make these matter clear as for example the translation of the following: 1. her skirt is stars 2. skirt of stars (= star-skirt) 3. her skirt of stars (= her star-skirt) 4. the stars of her skirt 5. Citlalicue 6. Citlalinicue 7. Citlalli Icue 8. Chalchihuitlicue 9. Chalchiuhtlicue 10. Chalchiuhcueye Thanks in advance. Leonel From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 27 18:26:52 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:26:52 -0600 Subject: AZ: (PG13) San Juan Teperico Message-ID: Greetings All: Note my little PG13 rating that I've given this topic so that those offended by the study of certain cultural practices (which is, by the way, different from performing the cultural practices themselves) can brace themselves with whatever intellectual rigor (rigor mortis?) they prefer. Or as Samuel Beckett has it "Who knows what the ostrich sees with his head in the sand?" So: In the Sierra Norte de Puebla there is an image in a church of San Juan Teperico. This particular San Juan whose "last name" is appropriately a hybrid of Nahuatl (tepetl/mountain) and Spanish (rico/rich) is the focus of prayers for money. San Juan Teperico lives in the lower world - Talocan - and that's about all I know. I should find out when his fiesta is celebrated. That would be telling... Does anyone on the list know more? Inemilis? His lifestory? or cognate images in other places/cultures? Thanks, Richard Haly From cberry at cinenet.net Wed Oct 27 18:41:52 1999 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:41:52 -0600 Subject: AZ: (PG13) San Juan Teperico Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Richard Haly wrote: > So: In the Sierra Norte de Puebla there is an image in a church of San > Juan Teperico. This particular San Juan whose "last name" is > appropriately a hybrid of Nahuatl (tepetl/mountain) and Spanish > (rico/rich) is the focus of prayers for money. San Juan Teperico lives > in the lower world - Talocan - If you mean 'Tlalocan', that's more of an upper world -- a rich mountain, well watered (needless to say), and thus fitting the name 'teperico'. The lower world (literally) is 'Mictlan'. Still wondering what the PG13 content was in this...? -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 27 19:55:26 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:55:26 -0600 Subject: AZ: (PG13) San Juan Teperico Message-ID: > If you mean 'Tlalocan', that's more of an upper world -- a rich mountain, > well watered (needless to say), and thus fitting the name 'teperico'. The > lower world (literally) is 'Mictlan'. > > Still wondering what the PG13 content was in this...? Talocan is the Sierra Norte de Puebla (a T-dialect pronounciation of Tlalocan. It is a lowerworld because it is within the surface of the earth (Talticpac/tlalticpac). I am in no way convinced that Mictlan as represented in the Florentine Codex etc. is not a generic place for the dead including Ilhuicac. topan mictlan can be read "above us in the land of the dead" which may or may not be two different places - especially as the sky was certainly a place for the dead (warriors, women dead in childbirth, and Tzitzitzimeh) just as Talocan also is a place where one meets up with ancestors. In the Sierra Norte de Puebla Talocan is very much like a combination of the elements associated with Mictlan and with Tlalocan (fertility). There is no confusion here since bones are fertile in Mesoamerica: omitl = bone(s) omiceyotl (that which pertains to bones) = semen. Moreover, the dead (ancestors) are the source of tonalli for the living. Best, Richard From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx Wed Oct 27 20:23:59 1999 From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:23:59 -0600 Subject: AZ: (PG13) San Juan Teperico Message-ID: Regarding fertile bones, its no coincidence that in Mexican Spanish fruit pits (avocado, peach, etc.) are called "huesos", "bones". I picked up this observation from Angel Garc�a Zambrano. John Sullivan Doctorado en Historia Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de Richard Haly Enviado el: Mi�rcoles, 27 de Octubre de 1999 01:58 p.m. Para: Multiple recipients of list Asunto: Re: AZ: (PG13) San Juan Teperico > If you mean 'Tlalocan', that's more of an upper world -- a rich mountain, > well watered (needless to say), and thus fitting the name 'teperico'. The > lower world (literally) is 'Mictlan'. > > Still wondering what the PG13 content was in this...? Talocan is the Sierra Norte de Puebla (a T-dialect pronounciation of Tlalocan. It is a lowerworld because it is within the surface of the earth (Talticpac/tlalticpac). I am in no way convinced that Mictlan as represented in the Florentine Codex etc. is not a generic place for the dead including Ilhuicac. topan mictlan can be read "above us in the land of the dead" which may or may not be two different places - especially as the sky was certainly a place for the dead (warriors, women dead in childbirth, and Tzitzitzimeh) just as Talocan also is a place where one meets up with ancestors. In the Sierra Norte de Puebla Talocan is very much like a combination of the elements associated with Mictlan and with Tlalocan (fertility). There is no confusion here since bones are fertile in Mesoamerica: omitl = bone(s) omiceyotl (that which pertains to bones) = semen. Moreover, the dead (ancestors) are the source of tonalli for the living. Best, Richard From cberry at cinenet.net Wed Oct 27 20:52:34 1999 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:52:34 -0600 Subject: AZ: (PG13) San Juan Teperico Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Richard Haly wrote: > > If you mean 'Tlalocan', that's more of an upper world -- a rich mountain, > > well watered (needless to say), and thus fitting the name 'teperico'. The > > lower world (literally) is 'Mictlan'. > > > > Still wondering what the PG13 content was in this...? > > Talocan is the Sierra Norte de Puebla (a T-dialect pronounciation of > Tlalocan. Ah, thank you. I tend to think in Classical terms and hadn't considered the source of your citation. > It is a lowerworld because it is within the surface of the earth > (Talticpac/tlalticpac). I am in no way convinced that Mictlan as represented > in the Florentine Codex etc. is not a generic place for the dead including > Ilhuicac. topan mictlan can be read "above us in the land of the dead" which > may or may not be two different places I have always read that as a classic difrassismo, 'above us, below us', alluding to "all the other (not normal-earthly-existence) lands." > - especially as the sky was certainly a place for the dead (warriors, > women dead in childbirth, and Tzitzitzimeh) just as Talocan also is a > place where one meets up with ancestors. In the Sierra Norte de Puebla > Talocan is very much like a combination of the elements associated with > Mictlan and with Tlalocan (fertility). There is no confusion here since > bones are fertile in Mesoamerica: omitl = bone(s) omiceyotl (that which > pertains to bones) = semen. Interesting! I hadn't encountered that word previously. -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling From karttu at nantucket.net Wed Oct 27 22:06:58 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:06:58 -0600 Subject: just a quick question Message-ID: One possible explanation is the invisibility of syllable-final nasal consonants in written Nahuatl. Orthographically they are often represented by a tilde or bar over the preceding vowel. Or they are simply left out. Phonetically there seems to be a reason for this. Syllable-final resonants [n,m,l] are "devoiced" in Nahuatl. That is, they are whispered. So they are hard to hear. Hence, they get left out of writing. Speakers in some sence "know they are there." It's only for nonspeakers that the writing system is confusing. Fran Karttunen ---------- >>Hi, >> >>I just happen to come across the following: >> >>(...) oncan quicenquixtiaya in tlatlaloque: >>auh in ihcuac oquicenquixtique, niman oncan quinmictiaya: >>auh in ihcuac in oquimonmictique, niman (...) >>( there they gathered them together [the sacrificial victims >>called] tlalocs: and when they had gathered them together, >>then they slew them there: and when they had slain them, >>then etc.) >> >>Would someone be kind enough to explain to me why is it >>found twice qui- instead of the expected quin-/quim- , >>namely 'quicenquixtiaya' (they gathered them together) and >>'oquicenquixtique' (they had gathered them together)? After all >>"tlatlaloque" is plural isn't it? Are those mere 'typos' >>or is there an explanation for them that I can't see? And if so, >>why then the "correct" quinmictiaya and oquimonmictique? >> >>Tlazocamati. >> >>Leonel >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Oct 28 05:23:34 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 23:23:34 -0600 Subject: just a quick question Message-ID: Fran, I *thought* that "case of the missing n's" should probably be resolved in the direction of some phonetic deletion, but then I fussed and fidgeted about the question of whether it might possibly have something to do with whether plurality was being marked at the morphological level or not. Leonel's comment on plural marking in the rest of the sentence pointed away from that, though. Syllable-final devoicing was one of my first neat surprises in Nahuatl -- when I made my first stumbling steps in Tepoztlan and Santa Catarina (Morelos), the devoicing of /l/ left the /l/'s with a great deal of friction and speakers of Spanish in Tepoztlan who knew little or no Nahuatl had it in their speech too. I recorded some Spanish narrative and lent a tape of it to one of my graduate professors in Spanish linguistics for his commentary. He told me that my speaker "had a very curious /s/" (in obvious reference to the voiceless /s/'s) and his credibility dropped like a rock. Of course, /y/ and /w/ also devoice too, in "classical" and modern dialects. /y/ ---> [x] is the basis for an early "gee whiz" experience (quipia, she takes care of it; oquipix, he took care of it [cl.], where the /y/ fails to show up in the present tense;;; tlaoya, he shells [corn]; otlaox, she shelled [corn] (Hueyapan, Morelos). Many modern dialects have converted syllable-final /w/ (spelled 'uh') into [h], so for years I doubted that I would ever hear a "real" voiceless /w/. Then I went to Ameyaltepec and heard it. Ameyaltepec Canoa she leaves it quicahua quicahua he left it oquicauh oquicah On the nasals, I think what happens in syllable-final position may be a different mechanism. Again, Tepoztlan and Santa Catarina have some relevant data: Tepoztlan Santa Catarina house calli calli houses caltin calti~ (where i~ represents nasalized 'i') People (particularly a friend of mine) from Tepoztlan would laugh scornfully about the ignorant n-dropping of the folks from Santa Catarina -- nomas no la saben pronunciar!! I think that the voicing in the i~ continues throughout the vowel, so the mechanism of "dropping" looks like what happened in French and Portuguese. --And even in Spanish. I've heard [e~fermo] for "enfermo" and [nara~ja] (excuse the 'j') for "naranja". Since the consonant that follows the nasal consonant is not a "stop" (complete closure) the articulators anticipate that small opening and the velum drops early, nasalizing the vowel. The historical process is categorically clear in Portuguese, where nasal vowels contrast with oral ones only before fricatives (e.g. f s z, etc.) and in final position. The nasal consonants remained stable before stops (e.g. p t k b d g ch, etc.). It seems to me that beginning in the 16th century, we can see nasal consonant dropping happening in three environments: 1. before /w y/ 2. word final 3. before fricative consonants (i.e. /s x/) I have assumed that 1 was a strong catalyst of /n/ deletion and that 3 was somewhat weaker -- and I have no strong intuition about 2. nantli mother nanyotl motherliness nayotl motherliness I know that we're not supposed to be subjective about the object of our analysis, but I really *like* n-dropping. San Agustin Oapan has it, resulting in: patlani it flies opatla it flew opatlanqueh they flew -- resulting in a little more depth in the phonology of the language -- and it can use it! ..and I didn't refer once to any PG13 topics.... Best regards, Joe On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Frances Karttunen wrote: > One possible explanation is the invisibility of syllable-final nasal > consonants in written Nahuatl. Orthographically they are often represented > by a tilde or bar over the preceding vowel. Or they are simply left out. > Phonetically there seems to be a reason for this. Syllable-final resonants > [n,m,l] are "devoiced" in Nahuatl. That is, they are whispered. So they > are hard to hear. Hence, they get left out of writing. Speakers in some > sence "know they are there." It's only for nonspeakers that the writing > system is confusing. > > >>(...) oncan quicenquixtiaya in tlatlaloque: > >>auh in ihcuac oquicenquixtique, niman oncan quinmictiaya: > >>auh in ihcuac in oquimonmictique, niman (...) > >>( there they gathered them together [the sacrificial victims > >>called] tlalocs: and when they had gathered them together, > >>then they slew them there: and when they had slain them, > >>then etc.) > >> > >>Would someone be kind enough to explain to me why is it > >>found twice qui- instead of the expected quin-/quim- , > >>namely 'quicenquixtiaya' (they gathered them together) and > >>'oquicenquixtique' (they had gathered them together)? After all > >>"tlatlaloque" is plural isn't it? Are those mere 'typos' > >>or is there an explanation for them that I can't see? And if so, > >>why then the "correct" quinmictiaya and oquimonmictique? From karttu at nantucket.net Thu Oct 28 11:46:18 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 05:46:18 -0600 Subject: just a quick question Message-ID: Dear Joe, I agree, agree, and agree some more. Ours is old stuff by now, but Jim Lockhart and I wrote about some of this in Nahuatl in the Middle Years (1976), trying to account for the orthographically missing n's (mostly) and the occasional orthographic substitutions of one consonant for another. Then I published a long footnote specifically about nasals from NMY in Linguistic Inquiry. And then, not really feeling done with the topic, we put another paper "Characteristics of Nahuatl Resonants" in the proceedings of Southwest Areal Linguistics (SWALLOW) V, which was published out of Trinity U. in San Antonio way back in 1977 (when we were all still young). Fran From dfrye at umich.edu Thu Oct 28 14:18:21 1999 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 08:18:21 -0600 Subject: San Juan Teperico Message-ID: Actually, it IS a coincidence -- or rather, it is one of the many "obvious metaphors" out there. "Hueso" as "stone, pit" is just plain old Spanish, not Mexican Spanish. (I am also reminded of the verse, I think it was from Corinthians, which Dostoevsky used as an epigraph to the Brothers Karamazov, to the effect that "what you sow does not live unless it first dies.") David Frye On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, John Sullivan Hendricks wrote: > Regarding fertile bones, its no coincidence that in Mexican Spanish fruit > pits (avocado, peach, etc.) are called "huesos", "bones". I picked up th= is > observation from Angel Garc=EDa Zambrano. From mdmorris at indiana.edu Thu Oct 28 15:45:52 1999 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:45:52 -0600 Subject: just a quick question Message-ID: Regarding nasal consonants, L. Reyes Garcia pointed out to me that "n" sometimes substitutes other consonants in colonial writing. The example I showed him was "quanli" for "cualli." I don't remember if _Nahuatl in the Middle Years_ makes comment of this or not. Is this common inmany types of Nahuatl? Does it occur only with specific consonant/vowel clusters? thanks, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From vilinahuatl at mexis.com Thu Oct 28 20:36:50 1999 From: vilinahuatl at mexis.com (Victor Angel Linares) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 14:36:50 -0600 Subject: occe iciuhca totlahtlaniliz Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01BF2159.14E940E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear (Totlazohicniuhtzin) John F. Schwaller, Nicnequi niez motocatlahtoltecpan, ye miecpa onicchiuh nictlaliz. Quenin huel nicchihuaz intla moyectlaliltzin nechilhuia cehcehpa = "invalid request: THIS" ihuan ahmo niquihcuiloa on. Tla xinechmopalehuili (axcan onicalac inic cehpa in Internet) Tlazohcamati. Micniuhtzin Victor Linares. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01BF2159.14E940E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear (Totlazohicniuhtzin) John F.=20 Schwaller,
Nicnequi niez motocatlahtoltecpan, ye = miecpa=20 onicchiuh nictlaliz.
Quenin huel nicchihuaz intla = moyectlaliltzin=20 nechilhuia cehcehpa "invalid request: THIS" ihuan ahmo niquihcuiloa=20 on.
 
Tla xinechmopalehuili (axcan onicalac = inic cehpa in=20 Internet)
 
Tlazohcamati.
 
Micniuhtzin
 
Victor Linares.
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_003F_01BF2159.14E940E0-- From karttu at nantucket.net Thu Oct 28 22:30:57 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:30:57 -0600 Subject: just a quick question Message-ID: Yes, NMY takes this up. There is a lot of orthographic substitution of resonants, especially n for others. Also much intrusion and omission. Do have a look at NMY if you can get a copy. Fran ---------- >From: Mark David Morris >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: just a quick question >Date: Thu, Oct 28, 1999, 11:47 AM > > Regarding nasal consonants, L. Reyes Garcia pointed out to me that "n" > sometimes substitutes other consonants in colonial writing. The example I > showed him was "quanli" for "cualli." I don't remember if _Nahuatl in the > Middle Years_ makes comment of this or not. Is this common inmany types > of Nahuatl? Does it occur only with specific consonant/vowel clusters? > > thanks, > Mark Morris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more > grief. Eccl 1:18 > > To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To > regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we > are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not > sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 > > MDM, PhD Candidate > Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. > > From leonelhermida at netc.pt Fri Oct 29 08:25:57 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 02:25:57 -0600 Subject: 'Totatzine' Message-ID: Hi Joe, As people say here 'one should hammer the iron while it is hot', so I am reporting without delay to you and to the 'list' the results, the doubts and the conjectures coming from my dealing with the Nahuatl version of the 'Pater' (Mattew vi.9-13) you kindly sent to me. >TOtatzine in ilhuicac timoetztica, ma c/enca >yectenehuallo in motocatzin "Our revered father, which art in heaven: hallowed be thy revered name". I suppose final -e in 'totatzine' is a vocative suffix, am I right? The first difficulty is 'timoetztica': ti- is 2nd. p. subj., mo- is perhaps the reflexive and it ends with -tica (perhaps better -ticah) which is the present of cah (be), but I was unable to deal with etz- (or moetz-?) (if it were quetz- I would say it means 'stand' so 'thou art standing' but as it is I cannot decide...). Is it correct to put *totahtzine instead of totatzine, *timoetzticah instead of timoetztica and yectenehuallo with a single 'l' so *yectenehualo? >ma hualauh in motlatocayotzin No difficulties except that my glossary has 'huallauh= to come' instead of 'hualauh' . Which one is correct? >ma chihuallo in motlanequil- >litzin in yuh chihuallo in ilhuicac in tlalticpac this time I'm afraid my source indicates 'chihualo' would be better than 'chihuallo' as a passive of 'chihua= to do, make' and *tlanequiliztzin instead of tlanequillitzin (it has 'tlanequiliztli= will, willpower'). Which one is the best? Also I have not found the meaning of 'yuh', though my source does have 'yuhquin= like this, this way'...so the whole passage would translate: "Thy revered will be done on earth as it is in heaven", pretty much the same as the English version except in that Nahuatl repeats the verb (chihualo) and puts 'in heaven' before 'in earth' according perhaps better with the Latin "sicut in caelo et in terra" which follows the original Greek "hws yn ouranwi kai epi gys" (I put eta=y, omega =w and the spiritus asper=h). So yuh= ? >auh ma xitechmomaquilli in axcan in totlaxcal >momoztlaye totech monequiz Again I have *momaquilia= to give, instead of momaquilli; I coud not find 'axcan' or 'in axcan' but that I conjecture to mean 'this day=today' (?); but I did find 'momoztlaye= daily' and 'totechmonequi= totech monequi = we need'; does totech monequiz is the future and means ' as we will come to need' or something alike? Or has the final -z another meaning? This form "totech monequiz" is very intriguing to me and I would be grateful to the lady or gentleman who is so kind as to explain it to me. >auh ma xitech-mopopolhuillilli in totlatlacol, >in yuh tiquin-popolhuia in techtlatlacalhuia I was able to puzzle out (in part) 'xitechmopopolhuillilli', knowing that mopopolhuilia means ' to forgive' but could not make anything of the ending "-lli" after "-illi". I was however unable to find in my glossary "tla-tlacol". I would put boldly "(tla)tlacolli= debt" if I was not aware of the fact that in the Iberian Peninsula children are (or at least were) teached to say in prayers *our offenses* instead of "our debts" (this latter being the correct rendering of the Latin "debita nostra" which follows the original Greek "ta opheilymata hymwn". So I remain ignorant as to whether 'tlacolli' ( or is it tlatlacolli?) means 'debt' or 'offense' (or yet a 3rd thing...). 'popolhuilia' we all agree is 'forgive', but a doubt about the meaning of 'techtlatlacalhuia' remains. The ending also is not clear to me. (looks like a noun is constructed from a verb form whose origin was the aforementioned noun '(tla)tlacotl'...) (I'm afraid verb endings and deverbative suffixes are a long way ahead for me...) >anh macamo xitechmocahuilli inic ipan tihuetzizque >in tene[y]ecoltiliztli 'auh macamo xitechmocahuilli' is of course "and do not leave us" and 'huetzi' being 'to fall down' and 'teneyecoltiliztli= temptation' this puts together as "and do not leave us to fall into temptation" which is NOT the same as the English , the Latin and the Greek, ( which three all agree with "and lead us not into temptation" ) but IS the same as is ordinarily spoken in the Spanish speaking countries in prayers. >Ma in mochihua Is of course "may this/it become [true]'. I apologize for having been so long and (I'm afraid) so boring. Best wishes, Leonel P.S. I would say the Nahuatl version of the 'Pater' has nothing to envy to its counterparts in Spanish or English either in beauty or in conciseness...A 'great' text by any standards, thank you!... L. From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Oct 29 13:14:09 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 07:14:09 -0600 Subject: 'Totatzine' Message-ID: Dear Lionel, In case Joe doesn't answer for a bit while he's on his trip to Illinois, let me give your queries a start: > >>TOtatzine in ilhuicac timoetztica, ma c/enca >>yectenehuallo in motocatzin > > "Our revered father, which art in heaven: hallowed be thy revered > name". > I suppose final -e in 'totatzine' is a vocative suffix, am I right? Yes. And it implies that the person praying is male, because women didn't use the -e vocative. > The first difficulty is 'timoetztica': ti- is 2nd. p. subj. ti- is the second person singular subject prefix meaning 'you'. (Confusingly enough, ti- is also the first person plural one meaning 'we', but here it's clear that 'you-singular' is what is intended.) > mo- is perhaps the reflexive Right. Here the reflexive combines with the causative form of the verb to form the honorific. One is addressing God, so this complicated honorific verb form is required. > and it ends up with -tica (perhaps better ticah) which is the present of cah (be) Right again. The verb cah (equiv. to Spanish estar) is combined with verbs using the ligature -ti- to form a durative construction: 'to be V-ing' > but I was unable to deal with etz- (or moetz-?) The Nahuatl verb 'to be" is suppletive. That is, it has different forms for different tenses and modes. For the present there is -cah. For the causative, it has the form etz (or more commonly yetz). So this phrase means 'You are honorifically being in heaven'. >Is it correct to put *totahtzine instead of > totatzine, *timoetzticah instead of timoetztica Why not? With the h, you are indicating the saltillo, which is a real consonant in Nahuatl. Without the h, you are using the traditional orthography, which left out the saltillo because the Spaniards had a lot of trouble hearing it. (Nahuatl speakers knew where the saltillos were in any case and didn't actually have to write them. It's just we, today, who don't know where they all are.) > and yectenehuallo with a single 'l' so *yectenehualo? The impersonal patientive noun formed from the verb yectenehua is yectenehualli 'something that is praised'. One can then add the suffix -yoh to mean 'thing invested with the quality of N'. The y of the suffix assimilates to the final l of the stem to give ll, so you get yectenehual-yoh > yectenehualloh. The phrase yectenehualloh in motocatzin means 'your name-honorific [is] a thing invested with the quality of being praised.' >>ma hualauh in motlatocayotzin > > No difficulties except that my glossary has 'huallauh= to come' instead > of 'hualauh' . Which one is correct? This verb should properly have a double ll. It is composed of the directional hual- 'in this direction' and yauh 'come' with the same ly > ll assimilation that one gets in yectenehuallo > >>ma chihuallo in motlanequillitzin in yuh chihuallo in ilhuicac in tlalticpac > > this time I'm afraid my source indicates 'chihualo' would be better than > 'chihuallo' as a passive of 'chihua= to do, make' Again, you are absolutely right. The "ma' at the beginning of this clause indicates that the verb is in the optative form, that is it expresses a wish that something should be. Adding -lo to the verb chihua (twice) means that people in general, not just some specific people do God's will. It's not so much passive as impersonal. "May Thy will be done" corresponds to "May it be that people-in-general do Thy will." > and *tlanequiliztzin instead of tlanequillitzin (it has 'tlanequiliztli= will, willpower'). Which one is the best? The single l, as you have surmised. > Also I have not found the meaning of 'yuh' It's a little verb meaning 'to be a particular way'. So yuh and yuhquin both mean 'it is thus', or 'it is so'. > so the whole passage > would translate: "Thy revered will be done on earth as it is in heaven", > pretty much the same as the English version except in that Nahuatl > repeats the verb (chihualo) and puts 'in heaven' before 'in earth' > according perhaps better with the Latin "sicut in caelo et in terra" which > follows the original Greek "hws yn ouranwi kai epi gys" (I put eta=y, > omega =w and the spiritus asper=h). Right. It might be read 'as in heaven it is done, so on earth may it be done'. Have to stop now, because work calls. I'm sure Joe will pick up on the rest of your query. Your message is wonderful because it shows that you have done a lot of thinking and looking up of things before posting your query. That makes it irresistible. It's terribly hard to take a sophisticated text with every sort of grammatical complexity and try to ravel it all out at once. I know that this is the appraoch that has been used by a lot of teachers, but it seems to frustrate learners. At the risk of self-promotion, let me risk saying that if you are going to invest all this work in Nahuatl, you might want to ask Fritz Schwaller about getting a copy of Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar. Fran From Amapohuani at aol.com Fri Oct 29 16:46:16 1999 From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:46:16 -0600 Subject: 'Totatzine' Message-ID: Leonel and Listeros: Just a comment re the Pater Noster. There are various versions (usually only slight variations) of the Pater Noster, Ave Maria, Salve, and Credo in a number of colonial Nahuatl publications. Some of these are accompanied by contemporary Spanish translations. One such version appears on p. 162 of John "Fritz" Schwaller's and my critical edition of Don Bartolome de Alva's confessionario of 1634 (going by the Nahuatl, it appears to be the the Pater Noster you are analyzing). Fritz and I have our own English version but as Arthur J. O. Anderson once wrote me, there is no one way to translate such texts. And Frances is giving you excellent guidance in any case. My own guess re the various Nahuatl versions of the four prayers is that each time a colonial nahuatlato and his Nahua aides/teachers needed one or more of the prayers they simply did it again themselves without feeling bound to copy, word for word, the efforts of their predecessors. As far as I can tell, this was common practice in many ecclesiastical texts. Also, in his ARTE of 1571, fray Alonso de Molina (in the second part or "book") has a section on the first part of the Pater Noster, analyzing it element by element. If this has already been mentioned, excuse the superfluous comment. Good luck with your studies. Ye ixquich. Barry From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Oct 30 03:06:28 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 21:06:28 -0600 Subject: 'Totatzine' Message-ID: Tlen tai Leonel, I tried to fill in some comments on what Fran wrote. If between the two of us, something is left uncovered, some "cuauhixe" of Nahuat-l will point it out. Best regards, Joe ***************************************************************** to-tlatlacol = to-tlahtlacol tlahtlacolli = sin, fault, something damaged from the verb ihtlacahui = deteriorate, spoil, suffer damage ihtlacahui + caus06 > ihtlacoa = damage, hurt nitlahtlacoa = I damage something (the /i/ of the stem elides) tlahtlacolli = something damaged (back where we started) ********* <>in yuh tiquin-popolhuia in techtlatlacalhuia |||| |||||| benefactive on popoloa benefactive on ihtlacoa they damage s.o. on us they offend us ***************************************************************** note on yuh: from the verb ihui = be similar, seem, be thus Without getting into "deep" word formation (or what really amounts to showing word formation by embedding a historical account in the explanation -- which I, incidentally, am in favor of), "adjectives" are usually formed in Nahuatl by adding -c or -qui to the perfective form of a verb stem. Examples: nipaqui I rejoice opac he rejoiced pacqui happy tzimpitzahua it is narrow at the bottom (tzintli = buttocks) tzimpitzahuac narrow at the bottom tlilihui it gets black, dark-colored (said of an object) (tlilli = lampblack) tliliuhqui blackened tlapani it breaks tlapanqui broken xocomiqui she gets drunk (xocotl = sourness; generic reference to fruit and wine) xocomicqui drunk pahti he gets well (pahtli = medicine, potion; pahti = he *has* cure) pahtic well, cured acalti it develops a groove (it becomes like a canoe) acaltic grooved ihui forms the preterit "iuh" as well as the adjective "iuhqui", both occurring in text meaning 'thus, so'. The "yuh" spelling represents the freedom of 16th century spelling, which, in itself, is not bad. The only problem is that for us, in the 20th century (and not *hearing* 16th century Nahuatl on a daily basis, it could cause the mis-impression that either word begins with [y], not [i]. The pronunciations are [iw] and [iwki] (voiceless w's), not [y...] and [y...ki]. The spelling here broke down, since [yw] is impossible (if you don't buy a vowel, you can't have a syllable). ***************************************************************** <>Again I have *momaquilia= to give, instead of momaquilli; I coud not find <>'axcan' or 'in axcan' but that I conjecture to mean 'this day=today' (?); <>but I did find 'momoztlaye= daily' and 'totechmonequi= totech monequi <>= we need'; does totech monequiz is the future and means ' as we will <>come to need' or something alike? Or has the final -z another meaning? <>This form "totech monequiz" is very intriguing to me and I would be grateful <>to the lady or gentleman who is so kind as to explain it to me. Two comments on momaquilli: 1) after you have read enough of a certain text and you find the writer not distinguishing between 'l' and 'll', you always read each word (or instance of any 'l' within a word) both ways. Double 'll' is always derived in Nahuatl (i.e., it never occurs inside morphemes and is always the result of 1) l + y (as Fran pointed out) or 2) l + tl). Since the honorific is composed of a reflexive prefix and either a causative or benefactive suffix, 'he [H] gives it to us' (using the most common form of the benefactive, "-ilia", is: techmomaquilia || |||| However, in command and optative forms, -ia and -oa drop their final vowels, so the honorific way to say 'give it to me' is: xinechmomaquili ********* in totlaxcal ... totech monequiz: Nahuatl made use of either of two grammatical structures to express the notion of *passive*, either the reflexive or the impersonal. So for instance, 'it is drunk' is: m[o]-i or i-hua (the impersonal endings are -lo and -hua; each verb stem has license for one of them; some even take both: -lohua or -hualo) Yes, -z is the future suffix. To indicate plural subject, simply add -queh. choloa he flees ticholoz you will flee ticholozqueh we will flee cholozqueh they will flee Note that -ia and -oa also drop their second vowel in future (just as they do in the commands, optatives, and preterits). So: monequiz = it will be wanted (it will be necessary) -tech is one of the more slippery postpositions semantically, being variously translated as 'to, for, against' -- even 'with regard to', so "totech monequiz" means 'it will be needed with regard to us' or 'we will need it'. The postposition allows a noun argument which *might* be attached directly to the verb to be expressed in an "outrigger" position. The best way to learn the semantics and uses of postpositions is to start with a *rough* idea of their respective meanings and then refine one's feeling for them by reading them in context. From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Oct 30 13:08:05 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 07:08:05 -0600 Subject: itech 4 Message-ID: I checked for the occurrence of "itech" in the FC and the results were too big for one message, so I divided the file into five parts. Here is number 4. If there is interest in the others, of course, I'd be glad to send them. Best regards, Joe =20 451. auh itla tetontli: tlacotl, cuauhtontli in *itech* moyeyecoa quichoponia:. and it makes a test on some small stone, shrub, small tree; it strikes it. (b.11 f.8 p.77).=20 =20 452. *itech* quiza maquiztli, quitoznequi: macuextli, ihuan cohuatl:. [its name] comes from maquiztli, which is to say macuextli, and coatl. (b.11 f.8 p.79).=20 =20 453. inic mitoa tlalmazacohuatl: ca zan nohuian, in milpan nemi: auh inic mazatl *itech* onca, ca cuacuauhtone.. it is called tlalma=87acoatl because it dwells everywhere in the maize fields; and from deer, because it has small horns. (b.11 f.8 p.80).=20 =20 454. auh inic mitoa tlapapalcohuatl: huel ixquich *itech* ca in tlapalli, ic mohuahuahuan. quimoquequechili:. and it is named tlapapalcoatl because on it are indeed all colors; it is striped with them; they run from one end to the other. (b.11 f.8 p.80).=20 =20 455. inic mitoa tetzmolcohuatl in aquin, anozo in tlein *itech* motecuia, niman aoc huel quicahua; ixquichica in quimictiz, ihuan cenca chicahuac, cenca ichtic.. it is named tetzmolcoatl because the person or thing about which it coils itself, it never more lets go until it kills it. and it is very strong, very wiry. (b.11 f.9 p.85).=20 =20 456. xicalli *itech* mitoa, ihuan cohuatl. it is named for xicalli and coatl. (b.11 f.9 p.85).=20 =20 457. auh inin xicalli: huel *itech* cenquizca ca in tlapalli, inic tlacuicuilolli,. and this gourd bowl: the coloring with which it is painted is part of it. (b.11 f.9 p.85).=20 =20 458. *itech* quiztica olli: ipampa ololtic, niman ye cohuatl: ipampa onca itzontecon, ihuan icuitlapil,. [its name] comes from olli because it is round, [and black]; then coatl, because it has its head and its tail. (b.11 f.9 p.86).=20 =20 459. *itech* quiza in itoca petlazolli, ihuan cohuatl: ipanpa ca achiuhqui in cohuatl.. its name comes from petla=87olli and coatl, because it is almost like a serpent. (b.11 f.9 p.86).=20 =20 460. *itech* quiza in nipinahua, anozo nitepinauhtia:. [its name] comes from "i am ashamed" or "i shame someone." (b.11 f.9 p.89).=20 =20 461. *itech* mitoa cuahuitl, ihuan azcatl: ipanpa cuauhtitech, cuauhpalanitech yoli, in tlacati:. it is named from quauitl [tree] and azcatl [ant] because it lives on trees, on rotten wood, where it breeds. (b.11 f.9 p.90).=20 =20 462. *itech* mitoa in cuitlatl, ihuan azcatl: ipampan cuitlayac,. it is named from cuitlatl [dung] and azcatl [ant] because it smells of dung. (b.11 f.9 p.90).=20 =20 463. in tlein ceppa *itech* mopiloa, aocmo quicahua, quitlamia, quihuatza.. whatever it clings to it no more releases; it consumes it, it sucks it dry. (b.11 f.9 p.91).=20 =20 464. *itech* quiza in itoca tlalli, ihuan omitl: ipampa in zan huel tlallan yoli, ihuan mochipa ompa onoc:. its name comes from tlalli [earth] and omitl [bone], because it is really a creature in the ground, and always remains there. (b.11 f.10 p.92).=20 =20 465. in itoca *itech* quiza in cuitlatl, ihuan cololoa: ipampa ca in canin quitta cuitlatl cololoa, quiteololalia: auh quimimilotiuh quihuica.. its name comes from cuitlatl [dung] and cololoa [it makes it into a ball], because wherever it sees dung, it makes it into a ball, it forms it into a ball, and goes rolling it along; it transports it. (b.11 f.10 p.93).=20 =20 466. in itoca *itech* quiza tzontli, niman ye ima: ipampa in ima cenca huihuiac, tliltic, pitzatoton huel iuhquin tzontli. its name comes from tzontli [hair] then ima [its arms], because its arms are very long, black, small and slender, just like hair. (b.11 f.10 p.93).=20 =20 467. *itech* quiza in itoca xicalli ihuan papalotl: ipampa ca coztic, huel coztic, tomiollo:. its name comes from xicalli [gourd bowl] and papalotl [butterfly], because it is yellow, it is quite yellow, it is fuzzy. (b.11 f.10 p.94).=20 =20 468. achi itloc in xicalpapalotl, ipampa mocuicuilo, iuhquin chien tzitzicuicatoc in nohuian inacayo *itech*, ihuan in iatlapalpan mocuicuiloa, mochiancuicuiloa.. it is somewhat similar to the xicalpapalotl, because it is painted as if sprinkled with chia, flecked everywhere on its body; and its wings are painted, painted with a chia design. (b.11 f.10 p.95).=20 =20 469. *itech* quiza in itoca texotli.. its name comes from texotli [light blue]. (b.11 f.10 p.95).=20 =20 470. miec tlamantli tlapalli *itech* ca inic cuicuiltic: huel xochitic, huellamomoxoltic: auh huel moxtic, huel mahuiztic,. many kinds of colors are on them, so that they are varicolored, much like flowers, of very intricate design, and truly sought after, truly wonderful. (b.11 f.10 p.95).=20 =20 471. in itoca *itech* quiza in acatl: quitoznequi mitl: ipampa inic patlani, iuhquin tlamina:. its name comes from acatl [reed], that is "arrow," because when it flies, it is as if one shot an arrow. (b.11 f.10 p.95).=20 =20 472. *itech* tlacati in capoli:. it hatches on american cherry trees. (b.11 f.10 p.97).=20 =20 473. in itoca *itech* quiza tetatamachihua: ipampa ca huiacatontli in ocuilton.. its name comes from tetamachiua [it measures one], because the little worm is a little long. (b.11 f.10 p.97).=20 =20 474. inin huel *itech* yoli, itech tlacati in topozan:. this ones lives, hatches on the topo=87an tree. (b.11 f.10 p.97).=20 =20 475. inin huel itech yoli, *itech* tlacati in topozan:. this ones lives, hatches on the topo=87an tree. (b.11 f.10 p.97).=20 =20 476. in macehualli *itech* ca, in itzinco hualpotzahui iztacatotonti, in ocuiltoton; iuhquin, in quin ye pehua nacatl palani yiocuillo,. those which are in the common folk, which well out of their anuses, are small white worms like the worms in meat when it starts to putrefy. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 477. za mochi ocuilin itoca, in zazo tlein palanqui *itech* yoli.. all are called worms, in whatever putrefaction they live. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 478. inic mitoa chiancuetla: huel inan in chiencuahuitl, huel *itech* in onoc in mochihua.. they are called chiancuetlan because the chenquauitl tree is really their mother; right in they are, they develop. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 479. inin zan huel *itech* yoli, itech tlacati in elotl,. this one lives right on, hatches on the green maize ears. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 480. inin zan huel itech yoli, *itech* tlacati in elotl,. this one lives right on, hatches on the green maize ears. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 481. zan huel iitic tlacati in tlazolli, zan huel *itech* yoli:. it hatches right in rubbish; it lives right in it. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 482. tlacuauh *itech* nemi, itech tlacati in nochtli. it lives, it breeds especially on the fruit of the nopal. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 483. tlacuauh itech nemi, *itech* tlacati in nochtli. it lives, it breeds especially on the fruit of the nopal. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 484. in *itech* ca in itech mochihua quimichi, tochi. etc.. they are on, they form on mice, rabbits, etc. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 485. in itech ca in *itech* mochihua quimichi, tochi. etc.. they are on, they form on mice, rabbits, etc. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 486. ahzo motlatlaloa in quimichi, in anozo tlein yolcatl *itech*. perhaps the mice, or whatever creature the worm lives on, flees. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 487. mitoa motocayotia citlalmitl auh in tlein *itech* ca, citlalminqui itoca.. it is said they are named "star arrow," and what they are on is called "shot by a star. (b.11 f.10 p.100).=20 =20 488. yehuatl in cuahuitl iiti, in cuahuitl *itech* tlacati:. this one hatches in the trees, on the trees. (b.11 f.10 p.100).=20 =20 489. yehuatl in cuahuitl *itech* tlacati, in itech yoli,. this one hatches in wood; it lives in it. (b.11 f.10 p.100).=20 =20 490. yehuatl in cuahuitl itech tlacati, in *itech* yoli,. this one hatches in wood; it lives in it. (b.11 f.10 p.100).=20 =20 491. inic macuillamantli, itoca copitl: *itech* quizan nicopi, ipanpa huallanextitiuh oceuhtiuh:. a fifth kind is called copitl, which comes from nicopi [i close my eyes], because it goes shining, it goes with light extinguished. (b.11 f.10 p.101).=20 =20 492. in campa tlein *itech* motlalia, in quichichina: zan no ihuan itech motzinchichiqui, oncan hiciuhca motetia, iciuhca ocuiltoton oncan yoli.. wheresoever it settles, it sucks; on the same place it also rubs its rump; there it quickly lays eggs; soon little worms live there. (b.11 f.11 p.102).=20 =20 493. in campa tlein itech motlalia, in quichichina: zan no ihuan *itech* motzinchichiqui, oncan hiciuhca motetia, iciuhca ocuiltoton oncan yoli.. wheresoever it settles, it sucks; on the same place it also rubs its rump; there it quickly lays eggs; soon little worms live there. (b.11 f.11 p.102).=20 =20 494. inic chicuacen capitulo: itechpa tlatoa in nepapan cuahuitl, ihuan in izquitlamantli *itech* ca, iuhquinma ichicahualizo.. sixth chapter, which telleth of the various trees, and of the various properties which correspond to them, such as their strength. (b.11 f.11 p.103).=20 =20 495. ic impan mitoa in mopoani, in zatepan cenca icnoyotl *itech* yauh, hualxoxocotihuan tlalticpac,. therefore it is said of the proud, to whom later great misery comes, "the fruit comes to earth." (b.11 f.11 p.108).=20 =20 496. cuauhtlactli; in itlac cuahuitl: yehuatl in *itech* hualehua in cuauhtzontetl in itech onaci icuapitzahuaya,. the trunk of the tree, the tree trunk: this rises from the base; it reaches to the slender part [above]. (b.11 f.11 p.113).=20 =20 497. cuauhtlactli; in itlac cuahuitl: yehuatl in itech hualehua in cuauhtzontetl in *itech* onaci icuapitzahuaya,. the trunk of the tree, the tree trunk: this rises from the base; it reaches to the slender part [above]. (b.11 f.11 p.113).=20 =20 498. *itech* quiza in huepantli, huel teconi, cuahcuauhuani,. from it comes the beam, that which can be well cut, that which can be carpentered. (b.11 f.12 p.114).=20 =20 499. cuauhtzontli, cuauhtzontetl: in tlein huepantli, anozo cuauhtectli *itech* huetzi;. the tree trunk, the trunk of the tree, is that from which the beams or logs come. (b.11 f.12 p.116).=20 =20 500. xococuahuitl, in zazo tlein xocotl *itech* mochihua in huel xococ, in zan achi xococ.. the fruit tree, the fruit of whatever kind growing on it: the quite sour, the slightly sour. (b.11 f.12 p.118).=20 =20 501. inic chicuei parrapho itechpa mitoa in quenami nopalli *itech* ca nochtli.. eighth paragraph, in which are told the sorts of nopal and the tunas on them. (b.11 f.12 p.122).=20 =20 502. zacatlaxcalyayactic: in *itech* quiquiza, itoca tlatocnochtli,. [the tuna] is dark yellow; thence comes its name, tlatocnochtli. (b.11 f.12 p.123).=20 =20 503. in *itech* quiza, itoca cuicuilnochtli,. from it come [the tunas] named cuicuilnochtli. (b.11 f.12 p.123).=20 =20 504. in *itech* quiza itoca anochtli,. from it come [the tunas] named anochtli. (b.11 f.12 p.123).=20 =20 505. in *itech* quiza, in itlaaquillo itoca, tzohualnochtli,. from it comes its fruit named tzooalnochtli. (b.11 f.12 p.123).=20 =20 506. in *itech* mochihua itoca zacanochtli,. the name of what grows on it is =87acanochtli. (b.11 f.12 p.124).=20 =20 507. *itech* quiza inelhuayo. [the name] comes from its root. (b.11 f.13 p.124).=20 =20 508. in aquin quicua in, in anozo qui: *itech* quiza, iuhquin nanacatl:. on him who eats it or drinks it, it takes effect like mushrooms. (b.11 f.13 p.127).=20 =20 509. ahzo cemilhuitl, anozo omilhuitl in *itech* quiza, tel zan no concahua:. it affects him perhaps one day, perhaps two days, but likewise it abates. (b.11 f.13 p.127).=20 =20 510. auh intla zan hueli quicua cemicac yollochicotiz, yollotlahuelilotiz, cemicac *itech* quinehuaz aoc tlacacemelle yez.. and if he eats it moderately, he will forever be disturbed, maddened; he will always be possessed, no longer tranquil. (b.11 f.13 p.127).=20 =20 511. catolhuia in ixinachyo, cochpana, cololoa in tlaelli, in cuitlaxcolli *itech* onoc,. they make an atole from its seeds, which cleans out, moves out the flux which is in the intestines. (b.11 f.13 p.138).=20 =20 512. *itech* monequi in aquin papalani inacacayo;. it is required by those whose flesh is suppurated. (b.11 f.14 p.142).=20 =20 513. *itech* monequi in aquin motlehuia, contexilia, coni; ic hualnoquia in quicocoa,. it is required by one who has a fever; they grind it for him to drink, thereby purging him who takes sick. (b.11 f.14 p.142).=20 =20 514. no *itech* monequi in aquin palani inacayo,. it is also required by one whose flesh is festered. (b.11 f.14 p.142).=20 =20 515. *itech* monequi in aquin motlehuia,. he who has a fever requires it. (b.11 f.14 p.143).=20 =20 516. *itech* monequi in aquin totonic inacayo,. he who has blistered his flesh requires it. (b.11 f.14 p.143).=20 =20 517. *itech* monequi in aquin tletl itech ca.. he who has a fever requires it. (b.11 f.14 p.143).=20 =20 518. itech monequi in aquin tletl *itech* ca.. he who has a fever requires it. (b.11 f.14 p.143).=20 =20 519. *itech* monequi in aquin motlehuia,. he who has a fever requires it. (b.11 f.14 p.144).=20 =20 520. *itech* monequi in aquin itipozahua, anozo quinoquia:. [the root] is required by one who has a swollen stomach or diarrhea. (b.11 f.14 p.144).=20 =20 521. *itech* monequi in aquin cenca icica,. it is required by him who pants much. (b.11 f.14 p.145).=20 =20 522. *itech* monequi in aquin omitlacoconi in anoce omocochtemic, in anozo quimauhtique:. it is required by one who has harmed his genitals, or has expelled semen in his sleep, or they have frightened him [in the act]. (b.11 f.14 p.145).=20 =20 523. *itech* monequi in totonqui itech ca. it is required by one who has a fever. (b.11 f.14 p.145).=20 =20 524. itech monequi in totonqui *itech* ca. it is required by one who has a fever. (b.11 f.14 p.145).=20 =20 525. *itech* monequi in motlehuia,. it is required by one who has a fever. (b.11 f.14 p.145).=20 =20 526. *itech* monequi in coacihui ic moxaxacualoa:. it is required when one has gout; he rubs himself with it. (b.11 f.14 p.146).=20 =20 527. amo maye in iamatlapal: zan niman *itech* quiza in icuauhyo maxoxoctic.. it has no branches; its leaves only come out from its green trunk. (b.11 f.14 p.149).=20 =20 528. *itech* monequi in aquin minalo, anozo mihxili:. it is required by him who is pierced by an arrow or has a sliver in the foot. (b.11 f.14 p.149).=20 =20 529. *itech* monequi in aquin melixhuitia, in aocmo huel temo quicua anozo qui.. it is required by one who has indigestion, who is constipated; he eats it, or drinks it [with water]. (b.11 f.15 p.150).=20 =20 530. yehuatl *itech* monequi in aquin omaxixtzauc, anozo omotzintzauc in amo huel quiza inemanahuil, yie itipozahua:. it is required by him who suffers from dysuria or has become constipated, whose excrement can no longer come out, who already has a distended abdomen. (b.11 f.15 p.153).=20 =20 531. moteci. *itech* monequi: in aquin motlehuia, in cenca mitonia inacayo:. ground up, it is required by one who has a fever, whose body becomes very hot. (b.11 f.15 p.153).=20 =20 532. *itech* monequi, conitia in cihuatl, in otlacachiuh. it is required by, [and] one gives it in a drink to, a woman who has given birth to a child. (b.11 f.15 p.154).=20 =20 533. conitia in aquin motlehuia in ixco, in ixayac *itech* papanhuetzi:. he who has a fever which comes to the surface in his eyes, in his face, drinks it. (b.11 f.15 p.154).=20 =20 534. *itech* monequi in aquin ixillan omotlali temalli in toquichcocol, in ye cuanhuaqui:. it is required by one who has pus settle in his abdomen, who has the male sickness, who dries up. (b.11 f.15 p.155).=20 =20 535. *itech* monequi in aquin mocaxania in omococoaya: anozo cihuatl iciuhca oquichcochi, anozo cihuacochi:. it is required when one who has become sick has a relapse, or if soon [after sickness] a woman sleeps with a man or a man sleeps with her. (b.11 f.15 p.155).=20 =20 536. *itech* monequi in aquin eztli quiza iyacac in amo huel motzacua. it is required by one who has a nosebleed which cannot be stanched. (b.11 f.15 p.156).=20 =20 537. in inelhuayo: coni in aquin motlehuia, in iitic motlalia tletl: in tonacayo itztic in pani, anoce huel *itech* motlalia in totlalhuayo, in ticececmiqui. he who has a fever, a fever located internally, while there are chills on the surface of the body, or chills settled in the nerves, drinks [an infusion of] its roots. (b.11 f.15 p.156).=20 =20 538. *itech* monequi in aquin mapitza: ihuan in aquin cenca totonia inacayo,. it is required by him who has diarrhea, and by him whose body is very hot. (b.11 f.15 p.157).=20 =20 539. *itech* monequi in aquin pozahua in inacayo: anoce ye palani in inacayo. it is required by one whose body is swollen, or whose body is festered. (b.11 f.15 p.157).=20 =20 540. ihuan no yehuatl coni in aquin *itech* catqui, in quitocayotia matlaltotonqui.. and he who has [the ailment] named matlaltotonqui also drinks it. (b.11 f.15 p.158).=20 =20 541. occan, excan cuichehua, xoxohuixtimomana in *itech* tonacayo. in ihcuac mih,. in two places, in three places, there are dark spots; bruises appear on the body when it is drunk. (b.11 f.15 p.158).=20 =20 542. *itech* monequi in aquin mococolilochtia, in cenca icica, in cenca totonia inacayo:. it is required by one who has a relapse, who pants considerably, whose body burns considerably. (b.11 f.15 p.159).=20 =20 543. nohuian *itech* quiza in tonacayo:. in all parts [the fever] leaves the body. (b.11 f.16 p.161).=20 =20 544. yehuatl *itech* monequi in aquin itipozahua in iiti xaxamacatinemi, anozo ye pozahua in inacayo: ihuan in aquin ixillan tetecuicatinemi, ahzo cihuatl, ahzo toquichti, ahzo piltontli:. this is required by one whose abdomen is distended, whose abdomen goes rumbling, or whose body is swollen, and by one whose abdomen goes resounding, whether woman or man or child. (b.11 f.16 p.161).=20 =20 545. in iamatlapal imemeyallo, ihuan yiacacelica iuhqui in chichihualayotl *itech* quiza,. the sap, which comes from its leaves and its tender tips, is like milk. (b.11 f.16 p.161).=20 =20 546. *itech* monequi in chichihua in oxocox ichichihualayo,. it is required by one nursing [infants] whose milk is sour. (b.11 f.16 p.162).=20 =20 547. matenextic, totomio, zan *itech* onoc in tomio. the blades are ashen, fuzzy; the fuzz is only on the blades. (b.11 f.16 p.162).=20 =20 548. *itech* monequi in aquin nanahuati, anozo papalani in inchichic.. it is required by one who has pustules or is covered with sores. (b.11 f.16 p.162).=20 =20 549. oncan quitemilia in *itech* nanahuatl in oncan hualquiquiza chiahuizatl, anozo palaxtli: ic pati.. there they make it cover the pustules where the serous blood flows out, or else the sores, with this they heal. (b.11 f.16 p.162).=20 =20 550. *itech* monequi in aquin xochicihui,. it is required by him who has hemorrhoids. (b.11 f.16 p.163).=20 =20 551. in tetzintlan anozo tototouh *itech* motlalia, anozo temaxac, anozo tequexilco:. it is placed in the anus, or the penis, or in the crotch, or in the rectum. (b.11 f.16 p.163).=20 =20 552. *itech* monequi in aquin quexilihui, anozo itech motlalia cualocatl, oncan motlalilia: in quenmanian,. it is required by one who has a swelling of the groin, or else jigger fleas are located on him, wherever they settle. (b.11 f.16 p.163).=20 =20 553. itech monequi in aquin quexilihui, anozo *itech* motlalia cualocatl, oncan motlalilia: in quenmanian,. it is required by one who has a swelling of the groin, or else jigger fleas are located on him, wherever they settle. (b.11 f.16 p.163).=20 =20 554. *itech* monequi, in aquin palani inacayo: ihuan iztac totonqui,. it is required by one whose flesh is suppurated, and for white fever. (b.11 f.16 p.164).=20 =20 555. *itech* monequi, conitinemi in ihcuac ayatle mocua, in aquin nanahuati:. one who has pustules requires it; he goes about drinking it during fasting. (b.11 f.16 p.164).=20 =20 556. in ome ei tlacatl *itech* monequi. two [or] three persons may use [one]. (b.11 f.16 p.165).=20 =20 557. in ihcuac aca miec *itech* motlalia. miec alahuac in iuhqui quiyolmalacachoa, coni tetzahuac.. when some one has much phlegm settle in him, when it seems that it will make him dizzy, he drinks it thickened. (b.11 f.16 p.165).=20 =20 558. *itech* monequi in aquin axixcocoya, axixcozahuia, axixtetzahua:. it is required by one who suffers a urine ailment; who has ycllow urine, who has dysuria. (b.11 f.16 p.166).=20 =20 559. *itech* monequi in aquin totonia inacayo:. it is required by one whose body burns. (b.11 f.16 p.166).=20 =20 560. auh yehuatl *itech* monequi in aquin omotlati, anozo papalani in inacayo;. but this is required by one who has been burned or whose body is festered. (b.11 f.16 p.167).=20 =20 561. *itech* monequi in aquin huehuei totonqui itech motlalia: ahzo pozahua, anoce tlaxhuiztli:. it is required by one on whom a high fever has settled; perhaps he has a swelling or an abscess. (b.11 f.16 p.167).=20 =20 562. itech monequi in aquin huehuei totonqui *itech* motlalia: ahzo pozahua, anoce tlaxhuiztli:. it is required by one on whom a high fever has settled; perhaps he has a swelling or an abscess. (b.11 f.16 p.167).=20 =20 563. *itech* monequi in aquin zazahuati:. it is required by one who has pimples. (b.11 f.16 p.167).=20 =20 564. paltic in *itech* motlalilia in oncan ca zahuatl.. moistened, it is placed there where the pimples are. (b.11 f.16 p.167).=20 =20 565. *itech* monequi in aquin eztli quiza iyacac, in amo huel motzacua: iyacac mochipinia,. it is required by one from whose nose blood issues; who cannot stop the dripping from his nose. (b.11 f.16 p.168).=20 =20 566. *itech* monequi; in aquin huei totonqui itech motlalia: in iuhqui iztac totonqui:. it is required by one who has contracted a high fever, such as the white fever. (b.11 f.16 p.168).=20 =20 567. itech monequi; in aquin huei totonqui *itech* motlalia: in iuhqui iztac totonqui:. it is required by one who has contracted a high fever, such as the white fever. (b.11 f.16 p.168).=20 =20 568. *itech* monequi, in aquin eztli quiza iyacac:. it is required by one who has the nosebleed. (b.11 f.16 p.169).=20 =20 569. *itech* monequi, in aquin eztli icuitlapampa quiza:. it is required by one who has blood come out of his rectum. (b.11 f.17 p.169).=20 =20 570. ihuan *itech* monequi in aquin omococoaya in mococolilochtia, anozo cihuacochi anoce oquichcochi:. and it is required by one who has been sick, when he suffers a relapse; perhaps [a man] sleeps with a woman, or [a woman] sleeps with a man. (b.11 f.17 p.170).=20 =20 571. *itech* monequi in eztli quichicha. it is required by one who spits blood. (b.11 f.17 p.170).=20 =20 572. moteci. *itech* monequi in aquin cenca quicocoa in iuhqui tetecuica ixilla: ihuan in iuhqui patzmiqui in iyollo: ihuan in icanahuacan tetecuica. ihuan in cenca huihuiyoca, papatlaca in itlalhuayo:. ground up, it is required by one who becomes very sick; his stomach seems to hurt, and his heart seems faint, and his temples throb, and his nerves tremble, quiver, exceedingly. (b.11 f.17 p.171).=20 =20 573. *itech* monequi in ahuel motzacua iiaxix: in aocmo huel quiza iaxix, huel titilini in iitic. it is required by one whose urine is completely stopped, when he can no longer urinate [and] his stomach really distends. (b.11 f.17 p.171).=20 =20 574. moteci. *itech* monequi in aquin omocaxani: in ihcuac opatiloc in oitech monec in achto ommoteneuh.. ground, it is required by one who has suffered a relapse after having been cured, when use has been made [of those herbs] first mentioned. (b.11 f.17 p.172).=20 =20 575. *itech* monequi in omaxixtzauc, ihuan omotzintzauc: ihuan in oitlacauh in toquichio in cenca ye itipozahua, aocmo huel moxixa, aocmo huel momanahuia: in cenca ye icica, in aocmo tlacua:. it is required when one's urine is stopped, and one has become constipated; and when one has harmed his manhood, when his abdomen is swollen --he can no longer urinate, he can no longer defecate; when he pants exceedingly, when he no longer eats. (b.11 f.17 p.173).=20 =20 576. moteci. *itech* monequi in aquin omotlanoquili in icamacpa, anozo icuitlapampa in itechpa neaxixtzatzacualiztli: ihuan in itipozahualiztli, ihuan in totoniliztli in titic onenca:. ground, it is required by one who has purged himself by his mouth or from his rectum; who has dysuria and a swollen abdomen, and fever is within him. (b.11 f.17 p.173).=20 =20 577. *itech* moqui in pozahua inacayo:. it is required by one whose body swells. (b.11 f.17 p.174).=20 =20 578. *itech* monequi, in aquin cihuatzintli, in cenca ic tenexihui: in za iuhqui cuauhtzintli, in omococolilochti: anozo ooquichcoch, anoce ocihuacoch.. it is required by one who is a tender woman, who hence becomes very pale, like lime, who is like a tender tree; by one whose sickness has returned; perhaps [a woman] has slept with a man or [a man] has slept with a woman. (b.11 f.17 p.174).=20 =20 579. in oquicoxonique ichcatica moquimiloa in omotez oncan ommotlalilia in huel *itech* inacayo,. when they have ground it up, that which is ground is wrapped in cotton; it is placed there right on the flesh. (b.11 f.17 p.174).=20 =20 580. *itech* monequi, in aquin ye itipozahua, in otlacocox itic:. they are required by one whose stomach swells, who has sickened internally. (b.11 f.17 p.174).=20 =20 581. *itech* monequi in aquin eztli quinoquia, in cenca totoca in icuitlapampa:. it is required by one who purges blood, when much flows from his rectum. (b.11 f.17 p.175).=20 =20 582. *itech* monequi in aquin icamac nemi totoniliztli, anozo titic:. they are required by one who has a fever in the mouth or in the abdomen. (b.11 f.17 p.176).=20 =20 583. *itech* monequi in aquin omocaxani, in omococoaya, in ahzo omotlahuitec, anozo itla etic oquinapalo, anozo ooquichcoch, anozo ocihuacoch:. it is required by one who has suffered a relapse, who has sickened; perhaps he has fallen, striking himself, or he has carried something heavy; or [a woman] has slept with a man, or [a man] has slept with a woman. (b.11 f.17 p.177).=20 =20 584. *itech* monequi, in aquin itech motlalia huei totonqui; in iuhqui iztac totonqui, in pozahua tonacayo. it is required by one who contracts a high fever, such as the white fever, when the body swells. (b.11 f.17 p.177).=20 =20 585. itech monequi, in aquin *itech* motlalia huei totonqui; in iuhqui iztac totonqui, in pozahua tonacayo. it is required by one who contracts a high fever, such as the white fever, when the body swells. (b.11 f.17 p.177).=20 =20 586. *itech* monequi in aquin omotlahuitec, in omopoztec, in anozo tlapanco ooalhuetz in oitlacauh iiomio, anozo itlalhuayo:. it is required by one who has received a blow, who has broken a bone, who perhaps has fallen from a roof terrace, who has damaged his bones or his nerves. (b.11 f.17 p.178).=20 =20 587. moteci. *itech* monequi, yiauhpohui in aquin axixtetzahua:. ground up, they are required, they make the proper drink for one who has a urinary obstruction. (b.11 f.17 p.178).=20 =20 588. moteci, *itech* monequi in aquin motlehuia, in itic nemi in totoniliztli:. ground up, they are required by one who is fevered, who has an internal fever. (b.11 f.18 p.178).=20 =20 589. in *itech* quiza iztac octli quichihua:. from it comes the white wine which they make. (b.11 f.18 p.179).=20 =20 590. *itech* monequi in aquin quicocotinemi iyelchiquiuh, tocuitlapampa, in ye ticuahuaqui,. it is required by him who goes about ailing in his chest, [or] on his back, who is already wizened. (b.11 f.18 p.179).=20 =20 591. auh in yehuatl, in chichic patli, *itech* quiza, itlaxipehuallo in huei cuahuitl, itoca chichic cuahuitl,. and this, the chichic patli, comes from the bark of a large tree named chichic quauitl. (b.11 f.18 p.179).=20 =20 592. quiza in ixiuhyo, huel tzoyoni: *itech* monequi in cihuatzintli, in ye quimati iti, in ye mixihuiznequi:. that which comes from its well-cooked foliage is required by the woman when she senses birth pains, when she is about to have a child. (b.11 f.18 p.180).=20 =20 593. *itech* monequi in aquin eztli quinoquia icuitlapampa;. it is required by one who passes blood from his rectum. (b.11 f.18 p.180).=20 =20 594. *itech* quiza in xochicualli, itoca, nochtli:. the fruit named nochtli comes from it. (b.11 f.18 p.180).=20 =20 595. no *itech* monequi coni in ye mixihuiznequi cihuatl: zan ic iciuhca mixihuiz.. it is also required [by] the woman who is about to give birth; she drinks it; she will promptly give birth. (b.11 f.18 p.181).=20 =20 596. *itech* monequi in aquin eztli quichicha in amo huel motzacua in za iuhqui totolcatinemi in huel iticpa hualquiza eztli.. it is required by one who spits blood, who cannot stop it, who just coughs constantly, whose blood comes from within. (b.11 f.18 p.181).=20 =20 597. *itech* monequi, in matlaltotonqui itech motlalia: in alahuac quipoloa toyollo,. it is required when one has contracted a high fever, when phlegm destroys the heart. (b.11 f.18 p.181).=20 =20 598. itech monequi, in matlaltotonqui *itech* motlalia: in alahuac quipoloa toyollo,. it is required when one has contracted a high fever, when phlegm destroys the heart. (b.11 f.18 p.181).=20 =20 599. *itech* monequi ic pati in aquin eztli iyacac quiza, in amo huel motzacua:. it is required as a cure by one who has the nosebleed, who cannot stop it. (b.11 f.18 p.182).=20 =20 600. *itech* monequi, in aquin totonqui itech motlalia: in inacayo pozahua,. it is required by one upon whom a fever has settled, whose body is swollen. (b.11 f.18 p.182).=20 =20 From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Oct 30 15:06:25 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 09:06:25 -0600 Subject: itech 5 Message-ID: =20 601. itech monequi, in aquin totonqui *itech* motlalia: in inacayo pozahua,. it is required by one upon whom a fever has settled, whose body is swollen. (b.11 f.18 p.182).=20 =20 602. moteci. *itech* monequi in toquichtin, anozo cihuatl, in omitlaco: in amo huel quichiuh,. ground, it is required when a man or a woman has harmed the genitals; when he cannot eject [his semen]. (b.11 f.18 p.183).=20 =20 603. intla oquichtli oitech acia: auh oquinmauhtique, anozo oquimitlacoque, in za totolcatinemi, in ye tlilehua inacayo; ihuan in ye cuahuaqui, in ye *itech* yauh inacayo: intlanel ye ce xihuitl, intlanozo ye nauhxihuitl mococoa: itech monequi,. If a man has mated with a woman and they have frightened or harmed them [in the act]; when he just goes about coughing; when already his body turns black; when already he is wizened, when already he loses flesh; even if he has been sick already one year, or perhaps already four years, it is required. (b.11 f.18 p.183).=20 =20 604. intla oquichtli oitech acia: auh oquinmauhtique, anozo oquimitlacoque, in za totolcatinemi, in ye tlilehua inacayo; ihuan in ye cuahuaqui, in ye itech yauh inacayo: intlanel ye ce xihuitl, intlanozo ye nauhxihuitl mococoa: *itech* monequi,. If a man has mated with a woman and they have frightened or harmed them [in the act]; when he just goes about coughing; when already his body turns black; when already he is wizened, when already he loses flesh; even if he has been sick already one year, or perhaps already four years, it is required. (b.11 f.18 p.183).=20 =20 605. *itech* monequi, cemixtli in tomapil tetech monequi.. one requires half a finger of it. (b.11 f.18 p.183).=20 =20 606. moteci. *itech* monequi, in aquin omitlaco, anozo omocochtemic: anozo cihuatl oquimixiuhcayecoque, anoce iciuhca otlamama:. ground up, it is required by one who has harmed his genitals or has expelled semen in his sleep, or has had intercourse with a woman [too recently] confined, or has mounted in haste. (b.11 f.18 p.184).=20 =20 607. *itech* monequi, in aquin ixtelolo quicocoa: in mitoa ixnacapachihui, in ye tlapachihuiznequi tixtelolonacatica:. it is required by one who suffers an eye ailment; by one who, it is said, has a fleshy growth over the eyes, who is about to become blind from flesh on the eyes. (b.11 f.18 p.184).=20 =20 608. *itech* monequi in aquin ic miquiznequi, amintli in amo huel motzacua: in zan hualmocuepa in atolli, in tlacualli:. it is required by one who is about to die of diarrhea, who cannot stop it, who just vomits up the atole, the food. (b.11 f.18 p.184).=20 =20 609. *itech* monequi in aqui itech catqui coatetl: ihuan in tozan potzalli:. it is required by one who has a cyst [on the throat] and a scrofula. (b.11 f.18 p.185).=20 =20 610. itech monequi in aqui *itech* catqui coatetl: ihuan in tozan potzalli:. it is required by one who has a cyst [on the throat] and a scrofula. (b.11 f.18 p.185).=20 =20 611. in centetl tlanelhuatl; miec tlacatl *itech* monequi,. the single root is required by many people. (b.11 f.18 p.185).=20 =20 612. *itech* monequi in aquin omitlaco. ihuan in aquin omotzauc in iaxix:. it is required by one whose member has been harmed, and by one whose urine is stopped. (b.11 f.18 p.185).=20 =20 613. *itech* monequi, in aquin totonie inacayo, in iuhqui tlatla quimati: anozo omocaxani:. it is required by one whose body is hot, who thinks it burns; perhaps the stomach has become unsettled. (b.11 f.19 p.187).=20 =20 614. cuahuitl, *itech* quiza itoca tepecopalcuahuitl:. it comes from a tree named tepecopalquauitl. (b.11 f.19 p.187).=20 =20 615. *itech* quiza ixica, zan ihcuac in tonalco:. it issues, it exudes only during the dry season. (b.11 f.19 p.187).=20 =20 616. ihuan in aquin pozahua inacayo; anozo huei totonqui *itech* motlalia, pani motequilia; ic iciuhca quipitzinia,. and [to treat] one whose body swells, perhaps of a high fever, [the gum] is placed thereon; it is placed on top [of the swellings], in order for them quickly to break open. (b.11 f.19 p.187).=20 =20 617. *itech* monequi, in aquin eztli quinoquia, anozo tlaelli:. it is required by one who passes blood, or a flux. (b.11 f.19 p.187).=20 =20 618. amo moteci, zan michiqui, itla *itech* tetontli.. it is not ground up; it is just abraded on some small stone. (b.11 f.19 p.188).=20 =20 619. *itech* monequi, in aquin ipan tlatlatzini, in iuhqui itech quinehua, in onontic. it is required by one on whom lightning has flashed, who is as if possessed, struck dumb. (b.11 f.19 p.188).=20 =20 620. itech monequi, in aquin ipan tlatlatzini, in iuhqui *itech* quinehua, in onontic. it is required by one on whom lightning has flashed, who is as if possessed, struck dumb. (b.11 f.19 p.188).=20 =20 621. *itech* monequi in aquin eztli quinoquia in iyacac, anozo icuitlapanpa:. it is required by one who passes blood from his nose or from his rectum. (b.11 f.19 p.189).=20 =20 622. *itech* monequi in aquin motlehuia, in totonqui itic nemi: in cenca mococoa in toyollo:. it is required by one who is fevered, who has a fever within, when he is very sick of heart. (b.11 f.19 p.189).=20 =20 623. moteci. *itech* monequi, in aquin eztli quinoquia: anozo tlailli icuitlapampa quiza, in atle huel quimonamictia pahtli:. ground, they are required by one who passes blood, or from whose rectum comes a flux, who cannot find a remedy. (b.11 f.19 p.189).=20 =20 624. ihuan in aquin *itech* quinehua, in iuhqui loco mochihua quicua ic pati.. and one who is possessed, who becomes as if deranged, eats it; thereby he recovers. (b.11 f.19 p.190).=20 =20 625. in achi mocotona, chichihualayotl in *itech* quiza.. when it is slightly cut milk comes from it. (b.11 f.19 p.197).=20 =20 626. zan no cempoalxochitl *itech* pohui,. it also belongs among the cempoalxochitl. (b.11 f.20 p.200).=20 =20 627. cuahuitl xochitl *itech* mochihua.. blossoms which grow on trees (b.11 f.20 p.201).=20 =20 628. cuauhtitech cuanmaxac in mochihua: *itech* im mochihua ahuatl.. it grows on a tree, in the tree crotch; it grows on the auatl. (b.11 f.20 p.204).=20 =20 629. in *itech* ca in xochitl, in cueponcayotl: pochquiotl, xochiamatlapalli, xochizhuatl, tecomayotl, tomioli, tomilolli, achtli, achiotl, yollotli, xochitl itzin, miahuayotl, mimiahuatl.. pertaining to the blossoming of the flower are the fattening, the petals, the calyx, the pistil, the pistils, the seed, the seed of the flower, the ovary, the receptacle, the stamen of the flower, the stamens. (b.11 f.21 p.214).=20 =20 630. auh izca in *itech* ca in cualli, in acualli. and behold the good, the evil which there is in it. (b.11 f.21 p.215).=20 =20 631. auh in amo cualli *itech* ca: in tecocoliani, quitecualtia, quiteitia atl ipan, octli ipan, tlacualli ipan quitetololtia:. and [as to] the evil which is in it: the one who hates people gives it to one to eat; he gives it to one to drink in water, in wine; he causes one to swallow it in food. (b.11 f.21 p.215).=20 =20 632. metl: in *itech* ca metl. maguey: that which pertains to maguey (b.11 f.21 p.216).=20 =20 633. in metl *itech* quiza in neuctli ihuani,. it is the maguey from which potable maguey syrup comes. (b.11 f.21 p.217).=20 =20 634. *itech* quiza in ichtli, cimaloni, tzahualoni, tilmachihualoni malinaloni, paloni, yapaloni. the maguey fibre comes from it, the kind which can be dressed, spun; from which capes are made; which can be twisted, dyed, darkened. (b.11 f.21 p.217).=20 =20 635. in metl *itech* quiza in huitztli, tlatzoponiloni, tlazohuani,. from the maguey comes the spine, the one which serves to pierce, to puncture. (b.11 f.21 p.217).=20 =20 636. inin itoca *itech* quiztica in quetzalli, ihuan itztli: ipampa in itlachializ iuhquin quetzalli, xoxoctic:. the name of this comes from quetzalli [quetzal feather] and itztli [obsidian], because its appearance is like a green quetzal feather. (b.11 f.22 p.222).=20 =20 637. inin itoca, *itech* quiza in quetzalli, niman ye chalchihuitl: ipampa ca in itlachializ, iuhquin quetzalli, inic xoxoctic, inic quiltic.. the name of this comes from quetzalli [quetzal feather], then from chalchiuitl [green stone], because its appearance is like the quetzal feather, so green, so herb-green is it. (b.11 f.22 p.223).=20 =20 638. inin xihuitl *itech* quiza in itoca xihuitl, in ixhuatoc: ipampa in itlachializ amo cenca quiltic, zan achi micqui: iuhquin amo cenca mahuizyo,. the name of this turquoise comes from the herb which lies sprouting; because its appearance is [not highly colored,] not very herb-green, just a little dull; as if it were not highly estimable. (b.11 f.22 p.223).=20 =20 639. inin itoca *itech* quiza in teotl, ihuan in xihuitl, zan quitoznequi iiaxca, itonal in teotl, ihuan, qn. cenca mahuizyo; ipampa acan cenca neci,. the name of this comes from teotl [god] and xiuitl [turquoise], which merely means that it is the property, the lot, of the god; and it means that it is much esteemed, because it does not appear anywhere very often. (b.11 f.22 p.224).=20 =20 640. in itlan in *itech* motta amo cenca mahuizyo:. when in it, when on it [something] is seen, it is not much esteemed. (b.11 f.22 p.224).=20 =20 641. inin itoca, *itech* quizqui in tlapalli, ihuan in teoxihuitl: ipampa ca zan ye huel yehuatl in teoxihuitl,. the name of this comes from tlapalli [red] and teoxiuitl [fine turquoise], because it is the same as the fine turquoise. (b.11 f.22 p.224).=20 =20 642. inin itoca *itech* quiza in eptli, ihuan yollotli: ipanpa in iuhqui itlachializ eptli, ca zan no iuhqui in itlachializ:. the name of this comes from eptli [oyster] and yollotli [heart], because its appearance is just like the appearance of the oyster. (b.11 f.22 p.224).=20 =20 643. atl *itech* onca, ihuan pozonalli in itoca: ipampa in oc ye huecauh, inic conmahuizyotique, tlaiximatinime, quitoque, ca teoatl ipopozonallo:. its name is from atl [water] and po=87onalli [bubble], because during olden times they esteemed it for the reason that those of experience said that it was the bubbles of sea water. (b.11 f.22 p.225).=20 =20 644. etlamantli in itoca inin apozonalli, *itech* mana, itech quiza in itlachializ.. the names of this amber are three, which are taken from, which come from its appearance. (b.11 f.22 p.225).=20 =20 645. etlamantli in itoca inin apozonalli, itech mana, *itech* quiza in itlachializ.. the names of this amber are three, which are taken from, which come from its appearance. (b.11 f.22 p.225).=20 =20 646. in mocemitta, iuhquinma tlemoyototonti, *itech* tzitzicuica; iuhquinma tlecuezallotl iitic icac,. when examined with care, it is as if little sparks continually fly from it, as if a flame stood within it. (b.11 f.22 p.225).=20 =20 647. iuhquin quetzalomitl, *itech* tzitzicuicatoc.. something like a quetzal feather quill spreads continually flying from it. (b.11 f.22 p.225).=20 =20 648. inin itoca, *itech* quiztica in quetzalitztli, ihuan epyollotli: ipampa in achi xoxoctic ic tlachia,. the name of this comes from quetzalitztli [emerald green jade] and epyollotli [pearl], because it looks a little green. (b.11 f.22 p.225).=20 =20 649. *itech* quiza in itoca tlilayotl, ihuan, tic, qn, iuhqui.. its name comes from tlilayotl [black water] and -tic, which means "like." (b.11 f.22 p.226).=20 =20 650. inin *itech* quiza in itoca iztac, ihuan chalchihuitl. the name of this comes from iztac [white] and chalchiuitl. (b.11 f.22 p.226).=20 =20 651. inin itoca *itech* quiza in matlali, ihuan itztli: ipanpa in itlachializ, huel iuhquin matlali, mamatlaltic, matlaltic, tetexotic, texocamiltic, texopoyahuac:. the name of this comes from matlalin [blue] and itztli [obsidian] because it is just like the blue coloring, an intense blue; blue, light blue, blue-brown, blue-tinted. (b.11 f.22 p.227).=20 =20 652. *itech* quiza in itoca xihuitl, ihuan matlali, ihuan itztli;. its name comes from xiuitl [turquoise] and matlalin [blue], and itztli [obsidian]. (b.11 f.22 p.227).=20 =20 653. auh ye huel ye on in poctli quihualyacantiuh, xoxouhqui cuahuitl, *itech* in iuhqui xiuhtototl, hualmoquetza, tlecuezallotontl= i:. and [this droplet] is [like] the smoke which comes from the end of [burning] green wood; from it a small flame stands out like [the color of] the lovely cotinga. (b.11 f.22 p.227).=20 =20 654. *itech* quizqui in itoca teotl, ihuan tetl; ipampa aoccan centetl neci, iuhquin tetl inic tliltic,. its name comes from teotl [god] and tetl [stone], because nowhere does a stone appear as black as this stone. (b.11 f.22 p.228).=20 =20 655. in eztetl *itech* quiza in itoca eztli, ihuan tetl: ipampa inic mocuicuilo in tetl, iuhquin eztli; iuhquinma ezcuahuacqui, in aocmo tlapaltic ic mocuicuilo,. the name "bloodstone" comes from eztli [blood] and tetl [stone], because the stone is mottled like blood; as if it were dried blood, mottled [with blood] no longer fresh. (b.11 f.22 p.228).=20 =20 656. in mohuitequi, tlexochtli *itech* hualquiza, tlatla, tlatlatia, tlatlecahuia, tlatlecuitia, tleyohua, tleti.. when it is struck, sparks come out from it, [which] burn, burn things, set things afire, cause things to ignite; [which] make ablaze, set flaming. (b.11 f.22 p.229).=20 =20 657. in itoca *itech* quiza in huitzitzili, ihuan tetl: ipampa in itlachieliz, iuhquinma huitzitzilin iihhuiyo, in mitoa totozcatleton.. its name comes from uitzitzilin [hummingbird] and tetl [stone], because its appearance is like the feathers of the humming bird, the one called tozcatleton. (b.11 f.22 p.229).=20 =20 658. in itlachieliz iuhquinma centzontli icpitl, *itech* moyahua xoxotla, iuhquin tlatla,. its appearance is like many fireflies; it radiates, glows; it is as if it burns. (b.11 f.22 p.229).=20 =20 659. *itech* cenquiza ca itech cenquiztica in tlapalli, in chichiltic, in xoxoctic, in xiuhtototl, in tlauhquechol, in camopalli, in tlahuitl, in quiltic. etc.. colors come constantly from it; they are constantly coming---chili-re= d, green, the color of the lovely cotinga, the color of the roseate spoonbill, purple, red, herb-green, etc. (b.11 f.22 p.230).=20 =20 660. itech cenquiza ca *itech* cenquiztica in tlapalli, in chichiltic, in xoxoctic, in xiuhtototl, in tlauhquechol, in camopalli, in tlahuitl, in quiltic. etc.. colors come constantly from it; they are constantly coming---chili-re= d, green, the color of the lovely cotinga, the color of the roseate spoonbill, purple, red, herb-green, etc. (b.11 f.22 p.230).=20 =20 661. zan tetl atle *itech* ca tliltic:. however, there is no black on it. (b.11 f.22 p.230).=20 =20 662. cequi *itech* cenquizca ca in tlapalli, yehuatl quitocayotia, quetzalatzcalli, anozo chalchiuhatzcalli:. one from which the color comes constantly they name quetzal- atzcalli or chalchiuhatzcalli. (b.11 f.22 p.230).=20 =20 663. huel mahuiztic tlamahuizoltic, ca *itech* cenquizca ca in tlapalli in chichiltic, in coztic, in xiuhtototl, in tlauhquechol, in quiltic, in ayopaltic, in camiltic, in tetzahuac tlapalli, in poyahuac,. it is really wonderful, marvelous, for from it the color comes constantly: the chili-red, the yellow, the lovely cotinga [color], the roseate spoonbill [color], the herb-green, the gourd-blossom [color], the brown, the dense color, the blended. (b.11 f.23 p.231).=20 =20 664. *itech* quiza in itoca coli, ihuan cili: ipampa ca cuappachtica motzitzicuitz, mocuicuilo, mozolcuicuilo,. its name comes from =87olin [quail] and cilin [small sea shell], because it is bespattered with a tawny color, varicolored, colored like a quail. (b.11 f.23 p.231).=20 =20 665. inin teocuitlatl in coztic, in iztac in itoca: *itech* quiza in itoca teotl, ihuan cuitlatl: ipampa in mahuiztic, in coztic, in cualli, in yectli, in tlazotli,. the name of this gold, the yellow, the white [silver] ---its name comes from teotl [god] and cuitlatl [excrement], because it is wonderful, yellow, good, fine, precious. (b.11 f.23 p.231).=20 =20 666. *itech* quizqui, in quenman cana neci tlahuizcalpan. iuhquinma apitzaltontli,. it derives from [the fact that] sometimes, in some places, there appears in the dawn something like a little bit of diarrhea. (b.11 f.23 p.231).=20 =20 667. ic neci *itech* tlaantli, i, in coztic teocuitlatl,. so it appears that [the name] gold is taken from this. (b.11 f.23 p.231).=20 =20 668. in itoca tetl, ihuan metztli *itech* onca: ipampa in quenman itto yoaltica neci, iuhquin atolli mani,. its name comes from tetl [stone] and metztli [moon], because sometimes it is seen, it appears, at night like atole resting [on the ground]. (b.11 f.23 p.234).=20 =20 669. quil icuitl in metztli, iztac tel achi cuichehuac, *itech* tlaquixtilli in itoca:. they say it is the excrement of the moon, white, but a little dark; its name is taken from this. (b.11 f.23 p.234).=20 =20 670. in metzcuitlatl *itech* quiza in itoca metztli, ihuan cuitlatl,. the name metzcuitlatl comes from metztli [moon] and cuitlatl [excrement]. (b.11 f.23 p.235).=20 =20 671. in itoca *itech* quiza in atl, ihuan mochitl: quitoznequi apopozoquillotl,. its name comes from atl [water] and mochitl: it means foam. (b.11 f.23 p.235).=20 =20 672. yehuatl in *itech* quiza in teocuitlatl, in ahzo temetztli, anozo amochitl, tlalli,. this is the earth from which the gold, or the lead, or the tin comes. (b.11 f.23 p.235).=20 =20 673. nochtli *itech* quiza in itoca, ihuan eztli, yehica nopaltitech in mochihua: auh iuhquin eztli, iuhquin eztecocoli,. its name comes from nochtli [opuntia] and eztli - [blood], because it is formed on the nopal and is like blood, like a blood blister. (b.11 f.23 p.238).=20 =20 674. *itech* quiza in itoca tlacuahuac, ihuan tlapalli: ipampa ca cenca cualli chicahuac, ixtlapaltic, ixtlapalihui huel chichiltic, huel eztic; iuhquin xoxouhqui eztli,. its name comes from tlaquauac [dry] and tlapalli [color], because it is very good, firm, vivid --a vivid color; a real chili-red, very much like blood, like fresh blood. (b.11 f.23 p.238).=20 =20 675. in itoca *itech* onca tlapalli, ihuan nextli: ipampa ca zan ye yehuatl, in nocheztli, tlachihualli, zan tlanello,. its name is from tlapalli [color] and nextli [ashes], because this same cochineal is a preparation, just a mixture. (b.11 f.23 p.238).=20 =20 676. in zazan nocheztli, in nochtli, in cualoni, nopalli, *itech* quiza, no tlapalnextli motocayotia,. the inferior cochineal, which comes from a tuna, an edible nopal, is also named tlapalnextli. (b.11 f.23 p.240).=20 =20 677. inin itoca *itech* quiza xochitl, ihuan tlapalli; iuhquin quitoznequi, xochitl, tlapaloni.. the name of this comes from xochitl [flower] and tlapalli [color]; it is as if to say "flower which dyes." (b.11 f.23 p.240).=20 =20 678. zacatl, ihuan tlaxcalli, *itech* quiztica in itoca: ipampa iuhquin zacatl mohuihuicoma,. its name comes from =87acatl [grass] and tlaxcalli [tortilla], because [the plant] climbs like grass. (b.11 f.23 p.240).=20 =20 679. in *itech* quiza coztic,. yellow comes from it. (b.11 f.23 p.240).=20 =20 680. in *itech* quiza zacatlaxcalli.. from it comes light yellow. (b.11 f.23 p.240).=20 =20 681. huitztli, ihuan cuahuitl: *itech* quiza in itoca. its name comes from uitztli [thorn] and quauitl [tree]. (b.11 f.23 p.241).=20 =20 682. in itoca *itech* quiztica nacaztli, ihuan colotl, quitoznequi iuhquin nacaztontli, colochtontli, copiltontli,. its name comes from nacaztli [ear] and colotl [hook]; that is to say, it is like a small ear, a small hook, a small miter. (b.11 f.23 p.241).=20 =20 683. in itoca *itech* quiztica tetl, ihuan cozauhqui. qn. tetl coztic, coztic tetl. its name comes from tetl [stone] and co=87auhqui [yellow]; that is, it is a yellow stone; yellow in the form of a stone. (b.11 f.23 p.242).=20 =20 684. in itoca *itech* quiza in tlalli, ihuan ihyac: ipampa ca tlalli, ca tepetlatl cacayacatica.. its name comes from tlalli [earth] and ihyac [stinking], because it is an earth; it is tepetate; it is tufaceous. (b.11 f.23 p.243).=20 =20 685. in itoca *itech* mitoa tlalli, ihuan xocotl: ipampa ca tlalli, tetepetlatic, tetequixquitic: auh inic xocotl, ca xococ, xocopatic,. its name is said [from] tlalli [earth] and xocotl [sour fruit], because it is an earth like tepetate, like saltpeter; and as for xocotl, it is sour, very sour. (b.11 f.23 p.243).=20 =20 686. in itoca *itech* quiztica tetl, ihuan tlilli: ipampa ca tetl tlacuahuac, auh tliltic, tlilpatic: auh inic itech onca tezcatl; ipampa pepetlaca.. its name comes from tetl [rock] and tlilli [black], because it is a hard rock, and black, very black; and from tezcatl [mirror], because it glistens. (b.11 f.23 p.243).=20 =20 687. in itoca itech quiztica tetl, ihuan tlilli: ipampa ca tetl tlacuahuac, auh tliltic, tlilpatic: auh inic *itech* onca tezcatl; ipampa pepetlaca.. its name comes from tetl [rock] and tlilli [black], because it is a hard rock, and black, very black; and from tezcatl [mirror], because it glistens. (b.11 f.23 p.243).=20 =20 688. in itoca, tetl, *itech* quiza, ihuan tizatl: ipampa ca tetl,. its name comes from tetl [rock] and ti=87atl [chalk], because it is a rock. (b.11 f.23 p.244).=20 =20 689. in itoca, *itech* quiztica yiauhtli, anozo yayauhqui, ihuan tlapalli, iuhquin quitoznequi yayactic, yiauhtic tlapalli,. its name comes from yauhtli [wormwood] or yayauhqui [dark] and tlapalli [color]. (b.11 f.24 p.244).=20 =20 690. cencan poyahuac in coztic *itech* neci.. the yellow which thus appears is very dark. (b.11 f.24 p.244).=20 =20 691. in itoca, *itech* quiztica in quilitl, ihuan tic, quitoznequi: iuhquin quilitl,. its name comes from quilitl [herb] and -tic, that is, like an herb. (b.11 f.24 p.245).=20 =20 692. in itoca huitztli *itech* quiztica, ihuan tecolli: iuhquin quitoznequi huitzcuahuitl, tecoltic, camiltic.. its name comes from uitztli [thorn] and tecolli [charcoal], as if to say carbonized, brownish brazilwood. (b.11 f.24 p.245).=20 =20 693. in itoca, *itech* quiztica cuahuitl, ihuan pachtli: yehica ca in ipachio cuahuitl, in no itto ca cuappachtli,. its name comes from quauitl [tree] and pachtli [spanish moss], because the spanish moss is of a tree which is also called quappachtli. (b.11 f.24 p.245).=20 =20 694. in itoca cuappachtli, anozo yehuatl in cuauhtepoztli, *itech* quiza. the name of that from which it comes is quappachtli, or the quauhtepoztli tree. (b.11 f.24 p.245).=20 =20 695. in ye huecauhtlaca, in nican nueva espa=A4a tlaca, momatia, ihuan iuhqui neltocaya, ca in ilhuicatl, zan iuhquinma calli, nohuiyampa tlaczaticac: auh *itech* acitoc in atl,. the people of old, the people here of new spain, thought and took as truth that the heavens were just like a house; it stood resting in every direction, and it extended reaching to the water. (b.11 f.24 p.247).=20 =20 696. iuhquinma acaltechtli, *itech* motlatzoa:. it was as if the water walls were joined to it. (b.11 f.24 p.247).=20 =20 697. auh ic quitocayotique ilhuicaatl, yehica ca *itech* acitimani in ilhuicatl.. and hence they called it "water which reaches the heavens," because it stretched extending to the heavens. (b.11 f.24 p.247).=20 =20 698. in itoca, *itech* quiztica in atl, ihuan totoca, iuhquin quitoznequi, atl totocani:. its name comes from atl [water] and totoca [it runs]; as if to say "running water." (b.11 f.24 p.247).=20 =20 699. ca iiaxca, ca *itech* quiza in teotl, in itoca, chalchiuhtli icue:. they are the property of, they issue from the goddess named chachiuhtli icue. (b.11 f.24 p.247).=20 =20 700. tetitech tlalli, *itech* huelia,. on rocks, on land it improves. (b.11 f.24 p.248).=20 =20 701. in itoca, *itech* ca in chiconahui, ihuan atl: ipanpa chiconauhcan in moloni, in meya,. its name is in chicunaui [nine] and atl [water], because it gushes, it flows out in nine places. (b.11 f.24 p.248).=20 =20 702. in itoca, *itech* mitotica quetzalli ihuan atl: ipampa chipahuac matlaltic. matlalayohtic:. its name is from quetzalli [precious feather] and atl [water]; because it is clear, dark green, gourd-green. (b.11 f.24 p.248).=20 =20 703. in itoca, *itech* quiztica in tecuani, ihuan atl. ipampa cenca tecuayo.. its name comes from tequani [man-eater] and atl [water], because it has many man-eating animals. (b.11 f.24 p.248).=20 =20 704. in itoca *itech* ca in altepetl tollan, ihuan atl: ipampa ca iitic in quizticac in altepetl tollan,. its name is from the city of tollan and atl [water], because it passes within the city of tollan. (b.11 f.24 p.249).=20 =20 705. in itoca, *itech* quiztica nextli, ihuan atl: ipampa tetzahuac, ticehuac, iuhquin nextli, tlapalli. its name comes from nextli [ashes] and atl [water], because it is thick, chalky; like ashes is the color. (b.11 f.24 p.249).=20 =20 706. in itoca, *itech* quiztica totoli, ihuan atl: ipampa quilmach oncan imatliyan catca, in cuauhtotolme in oc tzihuactla, necuametla,. its name comes from totolin [bird] and atl [water], because, it is said, there was the drinking place of the wild birds, those still in the cacti, in the palms. (b.11 f.24 p.249).=20 =20 707. in itoca *itech* quiztica tetzahuitl, ihuan atl: ipampa zan iquin in quiztiuh: ihuan cenca temamauhti,. its name comes from tetzauitl [omen] and atl [water], because it flows only at times, and it terrifies people greatly. (b.11 f.24 p.249).=20 =20 708. in itoca, *itech* mitoa in pinahuiztli, ihuan atl: ipampa in ihcuac ayac ipan quiza, in ayac quipanahuia totocaticac:. its name is said from pinauiztli [shame] and atl [water], because when no one crosses over it, when no one passes over it, it continues to run. (b.11 f.24 p.249).=20 =20 709. in itoca *itech* quiztica in atl, ihuan meya:. its name comes from atl [water] and meya [it flows]. (b.11 f.24 p.249).=20 =20 710. *itech* quiztica in itoca atl, ihuan pitzahuac, quitoznequi, pitzahuaticac atoyatl,. its name comes from atl [water] and pitzauac [thin]; that is, a river which is narrow. (b.11 f.24 p.250).=20 =20 711. in itoca *itech* ca xalli, ihuan atl:. its name is from xalli [sand] and atl [water]. (b.11 f.24 p.250).=20 =20 712. in itoca *itech* quiza in atl, ihuan maitl:. its name comes from atl [water] and maitl [arm]. (b.11 f.24 p.250).=20 =20 713. *itech* quiztica in itoca atl, ihuan tlamanalli, anozo mani:. its name comes from atl [water] and tlamanalli [something flat placed on the ground], or mani [it lies flat]. (b.11 f.24 p.250).=20 =20 714. in itoca *itech* quiza in chapoli, ihuan atl: ipanpa ca chapoltepetl itzintlan in meya, in moloni,. its name comes from chapulin [locust] and atl [water], because water flows, wells up from the base of chapultepetl. (b.11 f.24 p.250).=20 =20 715. in itoca *itech* quiza in atl, ihuan comoltic,. its name comes from atl [water] and comoltic [pitted]. (b.11 f.24 p.250).=20 =20 716. in itoca *itech* ca in atl, ihuan xoxouhqui:. its name is from atl [water] and xoxouhqui [green]. (b.11 f.24 p.251).=20 =20 717. in itoca *itech* quiztica in atl, ihuan totoca, quitoznequi, hualatococ tlalcoztli, xalatoctli,. its name comes from atl [water] and totoca [it runs]; that is, water-borne yellow soil, water-borne sand. (b.11 f.24 p.251).=20 =20 718. in itoca *itech* quiztica in cuahuitl, ihuan tlalli:. its name comes from quauitl [wood] and tlalli [earth]. (b.11 f.24 p.251).=20 =20 719. *itech* mitotica tlalli ihuan coztic: ipampa ixcoztic, cualli, yectli, tlamochihuani, tlaaquillo, temachtli.. it is named from tlalli [earth] and coztic [yellow], because yellow soil is good, fine, fertile, fruitful, esteemed. (b.11 f.24 p.251).=20 =20 720. in itoca *itech* quiza in tlalli, ihuan tlacohualli:. its name comes from tlalli [earth] and tlacoualli [something bought]. (b.11 f.24 p.251).=20 =20 721. *itech* mitotica micqui, ihuan tlalli:. it is named from micqui [dead person] and tlalli [earth]. (b.11 f.24 p.251).=20 =20 722. *itech* mitotica in itoca xalli ihuan tlalli: ipampa in xallo, in xalpitzahuacayo,. it is [so] called from xalli [sand ] and tlalli [earth] because it is sandy, of fine sand. (b.11 f.24 p.251).=20 =20 723. *itech* quiztica in itoca tetl, ihuan zoquitl: ipampa ca tlacuahuac, tzictic, tepitztic, cuichehuac, tlilehuac, chapopotic,. its name comes from tetl [rock] and =87oquitl [mud], because it is firm, gummy, hard; dark, blackish, bitumen-like. (b.11 f.24 p.252).=20 =20 724. *itech* quiztica in itoca calli, ihuan tlalli:. its name comes from calli [house] and tlalli [earth]. (b.11 f.24 p.252).=20 =20 725. *itech* quiztica in itoca tlalli, ihuan manqui qn. tlalli amo tliltic, amo no comoltic,. its name comes from tlalli [earth] and manqui [level]; that is to say, land neither hilly nor hollowed. (b.11 f.24 p.252).=20 =20 726. *itech* mitoa in itoca atl, ihuan tlalli:. its name is [so] called from atl [water] and tlalli [earth]. (b.11 f.24 p.252).=20 =20 727. tetl *itech* quiza: in tetzotzonqui. it comes from the rocks, the crushed rocks. (b.11 f.24 p.253).=20 =20 728. *itech* mitoa in itoca chiahua, ihuan tlalli. its name is [so] called from chiaua [it becomes soggy] and tlalli [land]. (b.11 f.24 p.253).=20 =20 729. atle huel *itech* mochihua. nothing can be grown on it. (b.11 f.24 p.254).=20 =20 730. *itech* quiztica in itoca tlalli, ihuan tlaiztalilli, quitoznequi iztac tlalli,. its name comes from tlalli [earth] and tlaiztalli [something white]; that is to say, white earth. (b.11 f.24 p.254).=20 =20 731. tezontli, ihuan tlalli: *itech* quiztica in itoca,. its name comes from te=87ontli [porous volcanic rock] and tlalli [earth]. (b.11 f.24 p.254).=20 =20 732. teuhtli, ihuan tlalli, *itech* quiza in itoca,. its name comes from teuhtli [dust] and tlalli [earth]. (b.11 f.25 p.255).=20 =20 733. in itoca *itech* quiza in atl, ihuan tizatl,. its name comes from atl [water] and ti=87atl [chalk]. (b.11 f.25 p.255).=20 =20 734. atle huel *itech* mochihua, zan ixquich xamitl, mochihua, ihuan tizatl mocuepa,. nothing can be done with it; only adobes are made, and it turns into chalk. (b.11 f.25 p.255).=20 =20 735. comitl *itech* quiztica, ihuan tlalli: ipampa (comitl) mochihua caxitl, apaztli. etc.. [lts name] comes from comitl [olla] and tlalli [earth], because [with it ollas] are made; bowls, basins, etc. (b.11 f.25 p.256).=20 =20 736. *itech* quiztica atl, ihuan zoquitl:. [its name] comes from atl [water] and =87oquitl [mud]. (b.11 f.25 p.257).=20 =20 737. tlacayo, *itech* onohuac.. It is peopled; it is dwelt upon. (b.11 f.25 p.259).=20 =20 738. ihuan yehuatl quitoznequi, in *itech* zaliuhtica huei tepetl, in no panquiztica, in noce huilantoc.. and this means that which is adhering to the large mountain which also is towering above it, or else lies reaching outward. (b.11 f.25 p.261).=20 =20 739. inic chicuei parrapho: *itech* tlatoa, in itlatlamantiliz in zazo quenami otli.. eighth paragraph, which telleth of the different kinds of roads of all sorts. (b.11 f.25 p.266).=20 =20 740. quinmacato tlazotilmatli, tlazotlanqui, zan huel *itech* itilma in moteuczoma, in aoc ac oc ce quiquemi,. they went to offer them precious capes, precious goods: indeed capes pertaining to moctezuma alone, which no one else wore. (b.12 f.1 p.5).=20 =20 741. izcatqui ic *itech* amacizque in toteucyo,. behold wherewith you will arrive [before] our lord." (b.12 f.1 p.10).=20 =20 742. inic nauhtlamantli zan ye no yehuatl in itlatqui catca quetzalcoatl, ye ne centlamantli: ocelocopilli, coxoliyo; hueitepol in chalchihuitl iicpac ca ic cuatzauctica; ihuan xiuhnacochtli, malacachtic, *itech* pilcatica teocuitlaepcololli; ihuan chalchiuhcozcapetlatl, zan no teocuitlacomalli in inepantla mantia; ihuan tilmatli tentlapallo inic molpia;. fourth, what likewise was the array of this quetzalcoatl was yet another thing: a peaked ocelot skin cap with pheasant feathers; a very large green stone at the top, fixed at the tip; and round, turquoise [mosaic] earplugs, from which were hanging curved, golden seashells; and a plaited green stone neck band in the midst of which there was also a golden disc; and a cape with a red border which was tied on; (b.12 f.1 p.12).=20 =20 743. zan no teocuitlacoyolli in icxi *itech* monequia: ihuan chimalli teocuitlatica itixapo, quetzaltenzouhqui, no quetzalpanyo: ihuan hecaxonecuilli, cuacoltic, iztac chalchihuitl inic citlallotoc ihuan ipozolcac.. likewise, the golden shells required for his ankles; and a shield with a golden disc in the center, and spread quetzal feathers along its [lower] rim, also with a quetzal feather flag; and the curved staff of the wind god, hooked at the top, overspread with white green stone stars; and his foam sandals. (b.12 f.1 p.12).=20 =20 744. ommatoctique, *itech* onacito in imacal, itech compachoque in imacal.. they betook themselves to the water; they went to reach the [spaniards'] boat; they approached their boat. (b.12 f.1 p.13).=20 =20 745. ommatoctique, itech onacito in imacal, *itech* compachoque in imacal.. they betook themselves to the water; they went to reach the [spaniards'] boat; they approached their boat. (b.12 f.1 p.13).=20 =20 746. huel yehuatl conaquique in xiuhcoaxayacatl, *itech* yetiuh in quetzalapanecayotl, ihuan itech yeyetiuh, itech aactiuh, itech pipilcatiuh chalchiuhcoanacochtli:. they put him into the turquoise [mosaic] serpent mask with which went the quetzal feather head fan, and with which went, with which were inserted, with which went suspended the green stone serpent earplugs. (b.12 f.1 p.15).=20 =20 747. huel yehuatl conaquique in xiuhcoaxayacatl, itech yetiuh in quetzalapanecayotl, ihuan *itech* yeyetiuh, itech aactiuh, itech pipilcatiuh chalchiuhcoanacochtli:. they put him into the turquoise [mosaic] serpent mask with which went the quetzal feather head fan, and with which went, with which were inserted, with which went suspended the green stone serpent earplugs. (b.12 f.1 p.15).=20 =20 748. huel yehuatl conaquique in xiuhcoaxayacatl, itech yetiuh in quetzalapanecayotl, ihuan itech yeyetiuh, *itech* aactiuh, itech pipilcatiuh chalchiuhcoanacochtli:. they put him into the turquoise [mosaic] serpent mask with which went the quetzal feather head fan, and with which went, with which were inserted, with which went suspended the green stone serpent earplugs. (b.12 f.1 p.15).=20 =20 749. huel yehuatl conaquique in xiuhcoaxayacatl, itech yetiuh in quetzalapanecayotl, ihuan itech yeyetiuh, itech aactiuh, *itech* pipilcatiuh chalchiuhcoanacochtli:. they put him into the turquoise [mosaic] serpent mask with which went the quetzal feather head fan, and with which went, with which were inserted, with which went suspended the green stone serpent earplugs. (b.12 f.1 p.15).=20 =20 750. quitoque inin ca amo totech monequia in tiquittazque, ca ye *itech* monequia quittaz in moteuczoma, in otiquittaque:. they said: "this was in no way for us to see; it was for moctezuma to see what we have seen. (b.12 f.2 p.34).=20 =20 751. auh tel amo ic xiccahualo, maco in ixquich *itech* monequi in cualoni, in ihualoni, ihuan in atl, in mazatlacualli.. but nevertheless he was not therefore neglected;i he was given all that he required --food, drink, and water [and] fodder for the deer. (b.12 f.3 p.45).=20 =20 752. niman ye ic tlaixcolehualo in *itech* chimalli in teocuitlatl: ihuan in itech in ixquich tlahuiztli:. thereupon was detached the gold which was on the shields and which was on all the devices. (b.12 f.3 p.48).=20 =20 753. niman ye ic tlaixcolehualo in itech chimalli in teocuitlatl: ihuan in *itech* in ixquich tlahuiztli:. thereupon was detached the gold which was on the shields and which was on all the devices. (b.12 f.3 p.48).=20 =20 754. niman ye ic hui in huel itlatlatiaya moteuczoma in ompa mopia in huel *itech* iaxca in moteuczoma: itocayocan totocalco. thereupon they went to moctezuma's own storehouse, where was kept moctezuma's own property, a place called totocalco. (b.12 f.3 p.48).=20 =20 755. auh in icoanacoch *itech* pipilcac in huitznahuayotl, teocuitlatl xoxopiltic, tlaxoxopiltectli,. and from the serpent ear plug hung the golden ring of thorns, with toes --cut in the form of toes. (b.12 f.3 p.52).=20 =20 756. no *itech* pilcaya motenehua huitznahuayotl, ixtlan tlatlaan:. also from it hung what was called the thorn ring, painted with diagonal stripes. (b.12 f.3 p.52).=20 =20 757. niman ye ic in tozpololli icuexcochtlan in contlalilia *itech* pilcac tziuhcuexpalli,. thereupon they set in place upon the back of his head a ball of yellow parrot feathers from which hung a child's lcck of hair. (b.12 f.3 p.52).=20 =20 758. coyotomitl in tlahuipantli, ihuan *itech* pilcatica amatl tlaxoxotlalli.. it was arranged of (strips of) coyote fur, and from it was hanging paper cut in strips. (b.12 f.4 p.53).=20 =20 759. in quinnamiquito: niman ic hualquizque *itech*. when they went contending against them, they then drew near to them. (b.12 f.6 p.86).=20 =20 760. auh in tiacahuan *itech* yetiquizque, atlan quinnemitique, quintetepachoque:. and the brave warriors quickly went at him; they made [the spaniards] go into the water; they repeatedly cast stones at them. (b.12 f.7 p.100).=20 =20 761. ayaxcan in quimoncaltechpachoto in oc ce acalotli *itech* in amaxac icac.. with difficulty they went to shelter them by another canal which was in amaxac. (b.12 f.7 p.110).=20 From sasisson at sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu Fri Oct 1 13:21:52 1999 From: sasisson at sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu (sasisson at sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 07:21:52 -0600 Subject: Tlacuilolli Message-ID: Jeff, George Everett and I were wondering if you had ever heard from the second reader about our translation of Nowotny's Tlacuilolli? We have made the changes suggested by Peter van der Loo. Could you let us know the status of the manuscript. The notes and bibliography get older by the minute. Ed Edward B. Sisson sasisson at olemiss.edu Department of Sociology and Anthropology University of Mississippi University, Mississippi 38677 662-915-7343 From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Oct 4 14:19:34 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 08:19:34 -0600 Subject: Waterfall Message-ID: Does anyone know the Nahuatl term for 'waterfall'? Thank you, Michael McCafferty mccaffe at indiana.edu From harwood at almaak.usc.edu Mon Oct 4 18:18:56 1999 From: harwood at almaak.usc.edu (Stacy Harwood) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:18:56 -0600 Subject: ball games Message-ID: I am posting this message on behalf of my aunt who is a undergraduate student at UCSC in archeology. She's working on a research paper about ball games in Mexico. She would like to compare how specific games have evolved and are currently played today. Thus far she has found many different references for ball games with different names, such as pelota mixteca, tlachtli, patolli, olamaliztli and so on. She would greatly appreciate any suggestions you have in terms of references, researchers or any other thoughts on the topic. Stacy harwood at rcf.usc.edu From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Oct 4 23:27:09 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:27:09 -0600 Subject: Waterfall Message-ID: In the fragmentary pictorial manuscript version of the events of the conquest in Tlaxcala (U. Texas Benson L.A. Collection), a waterfall glyph is labeled in alphabetic Nahuatl as "atl ihuetziyan" which means something like 'water, its customary falling place'. Fran ---------- >From: Michael Mccafferty >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Waterfall >Date: Mon, Oct 4, 1999, 2:22 PM > > > Does anyone know the Nahuatl term for 'waterfall'? > > Thank you, > > Michael McCafferty > > mccaffe at indiana.edu > From christophe.porcier at valeo.com Tue Oct 5 13:06:16 1999 From: christophe.porcier at valeo.com (christophe.porcier at valeo.com) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 07:06:16 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Does anyone know the Nahuatl terms for 'daybreak and moon'? >I am also looking for a list of Nahualt first name for girls. > Thank you, From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Oct 5 14:33:46 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:33:46 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Names Message-ID: Dear List, I have to build a link to the resources page, but the lists of Nahuatl names is found at the following URL: http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/names.html John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com Tue Oct 5 15:26:24 1999 From: tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:26:24 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: daybreak is tlaneci moon is me:tztli -----Original Message----- From: christophe.porcier at valeo.com [mailto:christophe.porcier at valeo.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 6:06 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Does anyone know the Nahuatl terms for 'daybreak and moon'? >I am also looking for a list of Nahualt first name for girls. > Thank you, From support at iomagic.com Tue Oct 5 19:20:10 1999 From: support at iomagic.com (Support AF) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:20:10 -0600 Subject: ball games Message-ID: try soccer... ----- Original Message ----- From: Stacy Harwood To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Monday, October 04, 1999 11:19 AM Subject: ball games > > I am posting this message on behalf of my aunt who is a undergraduate > student at UCSC in archeology. She's working on a research paper about > ball games in Mexico. She would like to compare how specific games have > evolved and are currently played today. Thus far she has found many > different references for ball games with different names, such as pelota > mixteca, tlachtli, patolli, olamaliztli and so on. She would greatly > appreciate any suggestions you have in terms of references, researchers or > any other thoughts on the topic. > > Stacy > > harwood at rcf.usc.edu > > From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx Tue Oct 5 21:04:54 1999 From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:04:54 -0600 Subject: waterfall, and "uh" Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF0F47.7CF21DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable En Chapulhuacanito, Tamazunchale, San Luis Potos=ED, the nahuatl = word for waterfall is "achayawte". In classical nahuatl it would be = "achayauhtli", from "atl", "water" and "chayahui", "to scatter or to = snow".=20 This allows me to raise a question. When I began to study classical = nahuatl, and pronunciation was explained to me, I was told that the = secuence, "-auh", such as in the example above, was to be pronounced = with rounded lips. After being around native speakers of the Huasteca = for a while, I have seen that in actual practice, the syllable final = "uh" or "w", sounds pretty much like the glottal stop, both before = consonents and before silence. In other words, no rounded lips. My = question is, are there regional pronunciations of the "uh" which use = rounded lips, or is this standard explanation of classical nahuatl = pronunciation just wrong? John Sullivan Doctorado en Historia Universidad Aut=F3noma de Zacatecas. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF0F47.7CF21DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    En Chapulhuacanito, Tamazunchale, = San Luis=20 Potos=ED, the nahuatl word for waterfall is "achayawte".  In = classical=20 nahuatl it would be "achayauhtli", from "atl", "water" and "chayahui", = "to=20 scatter or to snow". 
    This allows me to raise a = question. =20 When I began to study classical nahuatl, and pronunciation was explained = to me,=20 I was told that the secuence, "-auh", such as in the example above, was = to be=20 pronounced with rounded lips.  After being around native speakers = of the=20 Huasteca for a while, I have seen that in actual practice, the syllable = final=20 "uh" or "w", sounds pretty much like the glottal stop, both before = consonents=20 and before silence.  In other words, no rounded lips.  My = question is,=20 are there regional pronunciations of the "uh" which use rounded lips, or = is this=20 standard explanation of classical nahuatl pronunciation just = wrong?
    John Sullivan
    Doctorado en = Historia
    Universidad Aut=F3noma de=20 Zacatecas.
------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF0F47.7CF21DC0-- From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Oct 5 21:08:31 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:08:31 -0600 Subject: Waterfall Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Frances Karttunen wrote: > In the fragmentary pictorial manuscript version of the events of the=20 > conquest in Tlaxcala (U. Texas Benson L.A. Collection), a waterfall glyph= is > labeled in alphabetic Nahuatl as "atl ihuetziyan" which means something l= ike > 'water, its customary falling place'. >=20 I drew a complete blank on the original question (although I scratched my head plentifully and did some searching). Fran's contribution reminded me of one of my favorite Molina entries: "atl iohhui" 'gutter or stream of water '. So I thought y'all might find these similar phrases of interest.= =20 Joe =20 atl ichololiz. chorro de agua. 71m2-8-4 =20 atl imopiloayan. corriente de agua. 71m2-8-4 =20 atl inecuepca (huei -invert.2). menguante de mar. 71m2-155-3 =20 atl iohhui. canal de tejado, o manadero de agua. =20 71m2-8-4 =20 atl ipitzahuayan (huei -invert.2). estrecho de mar. 71m2-155-3 =20 atl itemoayan. chorro de agua, de alto abaxo. = =20 71m2-8-4 =20 =20 metztli icualoca. eclipsi de luna. 71m2-55-3 =20 metztli imiquiz. conjunction de luna. 71m2-55-= 3 =20 micqui itlatlayan. hoguera para quemar muerto. 71m2-56-2 =20 micqui itzinco (iuhquim-invert.2). lugar muy escuro. 71m2-43-4 =20 milla ichan. labrador o aldeano. 71m2-56-3 =20 =20 mitl icuatepozo. caxquillo de saeta. =20 71m2-57-1 =20 mitl iyacatepozyo. caxquillo de saeta. = =20 71m2-57-1 =20 =20 naranjo icueponca. azahar. 71m2-063-2 =20 naranjo ixochyo. azahar. 71m2-063-2 =20 =20 obispo iteuctlatocauh. prouisor de obispo. 71m2-74-3 =20 obispo ixiptla. prouisor de obispo. 71m2-74-3 =20 =20 tepetl icuaololiuhca. cabezo de sierra. 71m2-102-4 =20 tepetl itlacapan. ladera de sierra. 71m2- 102-4 =20 tepetl itzintlan. al pie dela sierra. 71m2- 102-4 =20 tepetlicampa. allende la sierra, o detras dela sierra. 71m2-102-4 =20 =20 tepoztli iohui. vena o veta de cobre. 71m2-104-3 =20 =20 tetl ihuahuanca. vena de pedrera o de cantera. = =20 71m2-110-3 =20 =20 tlalhuatl itetecuicaca. pulso dela mu=A4eca, o del brazo. 71m2-123-4 =20 =20 totoltetl icoztica. yema de hueuo. 71m2-150-3 =20 totoltetl iiztaca. clara de hueuo. =20 71m2-150-3 =20 totoltetl itehuilotca. clara de hueuo. 71m2-150-3 =20 =20 tozan ichan. cueua de tozan. 71m2-148-2 =20 =20 tzicatl inan. culebra de hormiguero. 71m2-152-1 =20 =20 tzontlima. cierta sauandija como ara=A4a. 71m2-154-= 2 =20 =20 xicocuitlaocotl iyacacotonca. pauesa dela dicha candela. 71m2-159-1 =20 xicocuitlaocotl iyectiloca. pauesa dela dicha candela. 71m2-159-1 =20 xicotli iteminaya. aguijon de abeja. =20 71m2-159-1 =20 xicotlimiuh. aguijon de abeja. 71m2-159-1 =20 =20 xonacatl itzon. porretas de cebolla. 71m2- 161-1 =20 =20 From Chukol at aol.com Wed Oct 6 06:41:43 1999 From: Chukol at aol.com (Chukol at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 00:41:43 -0600 Subject: Change of Address Message-ID: Dr. Scwaller: I would like to change my e-mail address for the Nahuatl list from chukol at aol.com to wulifu at aol.com. I am only a beginner in the language, but I find the linguistic discussions very interesting. Chuck Oliver From noharm at worldonline.nl Wed Oct 6 13:21:36 1999 From: noharm at worldonline.nl (Harm Puite) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 07:21:36 -0600 Subject: ball games Message-ID: Dear Stacy, The dutch researcher Ted J.J. Leyenaar published a quit extensive study of the mexican ballgame Ulama in which also the actual situation of this game is described. Title of this book is; Ulama, it was published in 1978 by E.J. Brill in Leiden, netherlands with ISBN 90 04 05851 6. Harm Puite -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Stacy Harwood Aan: Multiple recipients of list Datum: maandag 4 oktober 1999 20:20 Onderwerp: ball games > >I am posting this message on behalf of my aunt who is a undergraduate >student at UCSC in archeology. She's working on a research paper about >ball games in Mexico. She would like to compare how specific games have >evolved and are currently played today. Thus far she has found many >different references for ball games with different names, such as pelota >mixteca, tlachtli, patolli, olamaliztli and so on. She would greatly >appreciate any suggestions you have in terms of references, researchers or >any other thoughts on the topic. > >Stacy > >harwood at rcf.usc.edu > > > > From leonelhermida at netc.pt Wed Oct 6 18:25:17 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:25:17 -0600 Subject: noun endings Message-ID: Hi, Please forgive my ignorance but I have a few elementary questions I would love to be responded to: (1) One notices in Nauhatl since the very beginning that a huge amount of nouns end in -(vowel)+tl (ehecatl, coatl, ocelotl, ticitl, cueitl, tepetl, etc). How much in those is noun root and how much is ending? And what is the meaning of the ending? (definiteness?, gender?, distribution into classes?, nominative marker?, singular ending?...) (2) another very common ending, I mean "-tli" , seems almost as common, a third being "-lli" and a fourth "-in"(and "ni"??); same questions as (1) (3) why so common a noun as "innan" (mother?) appears to fall outside of the 'rule'? (4) In Teteoinnan (a divine name) the first part must be teo-tl (god), but it appears reduplicated: is this a plural indicator? If so, how is reduplication done? And is it common to make plurals that way? Is it the rule? I would be very grateful (for not spamming the list with trivialities), if someone could indicate to me where on the web I can learn some grammar and vocabulary. It is the classical language that interests me most. Thank you very, very much. Leonel From tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com Wed Oct 6 19:56:07 1999 From: tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:56:07 -0600 Subject: noun endings Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Leonel Hermida [mailto:leonelhermida at netc.pt] Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 11:25 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: noun endings Hi, Please forgive my ignorance but I have a few elementary questions I would love to be responded to: (1) One notices in Nauhatl since the very beginning that a huge amount of nouns end in -(vowel)+tl (ehecatl, coatl, ocelotl, ticitl, cueitl, tepetl, etc). How much in those is noun root and how much is ending? And what is the meaning of the ending? (definiteness?, gender?, distribution into classes?, nominative marker?, singular ending?...) In my opinion there is really one singular noun marker suffix that is -tl(i), with the "i" marked optional based on consonants clustering. That is to say that "i" will be dropped if the remainder does not create a consonant cluster. The acceptable syllables are: (C)V(C), paranthesis denoting that optional. tepetl(i) -> tepetl CVCVC V CVCVC note: tl is considered one consonant CV-CVC-V CV-CVC as you can see no consonant clusters Now consider the case of Ohtli ohtli -> ohtl VCC V VCC note: There is a consonant cluster created between -htl- therefore you can not drop the "i" The case of -lli is just a progressive assimilation. pil+tli -> pilli There is a rule that states that if -l is followed by tl it becomes ll pil+tli -> pilli Applying the previous we see that the final "i" can not be dropped. pilli CVC-CV as you can see there is no violation of the syllable rules. (2) another very common ending, I mean "-tli" , seems almost as common, a third being "-lli" and a fourth "-in"(and "ni"??); same questions as (1) (3) why so common a noun as "innan" (mother?) appears to fall outside of the 'rule'? In the case of nouns that have possesive as in the case innan the noun drops its singular marker. The number is specified by in- and nantli loses its singular marker. (4) In Teteoinnan (a divine name) the first part must be teo-tl (god), but it appears reduplicated: is this a plural indicator? If so, how is reduplication done? And is it common to make plurals that way? Is it the rule? There are rules for first syllable reduplication to specify different meaning. 1. dup-1st syll = plurality as in the case of pipiltin 2. dup:-1st syll= to specify immenseness as in the case of te:teo:inna:n 3. dup-h-1st syll = I can't remember this meaning....... I would be very grateful (for not spamming the list with trivialities), if someone could indicate to me where on the web I can learn some grammar and vocabulary. It is the classical language that interests me most. Thank you very, very much. Leonel Well I hope that this helps..... Tezozomoc From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Oct 6 21:57:49 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:57:49 -0600 Subject: noun endings Message-ID: Leonel, I'll try not to overlap with what Tezozomoc has already covered -- very well. Two comments below. Best regards, Joe On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Leonel Hermida wrote: > (3) why so common a noun as "innan" (mother?) appears to fall outside of > the 'rule'? Actually, "innan" does follow the rule. It is not a generic reference to 'mother', but means specifically 'their mother'. The possessive paradigm for "nan(-tli)" (as usual, with vowel length omitted -- a pesky transgression of mine which I will account for at the pearly gates): nonan my mother tonan our mother monan your mother amonan y'all's mother inan her mother innan their mother Since "nan(-tli)" refers to a class of concepts which Nahuatl grammar categorizes as 'inalienable' (i.e., normally possessed), it seldom occurs with the absolutive suffix (i.e., -tli/-tl/-li or -in). In the case of 'mother' and 'father', the 1) need for generic reference and the 2) need to observe the principle of 'inalienability' (2 needs in opposition) is satisfied by using the *non-specific* possessive prefix "te-" (someone's): tenan mother or someone's mother tetah father or someone's father > (4) In Teteoinnan (a divine name) the first part must be teo-tl (god), but > it appears reduplicated: is this a plural indicator? If so, how is > reduplication done? And is it common to make plurals that way? Is it the > rule? "teteoinnan" is really a phrase: "teteo innan". The first part obviously involves plural formation from "teotl" by reduplication. "innan" is in the paradigm above, so the phrase means 'mother of the gods' or 'the gods' mother'. From leonelhermida at netc.pt Thu Oct 7 14:55:13 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:55:13 -0600 Subject: thanks Message-ID: Hi, Many thanks to Tezozomoc, John Sullivan and Joe Campbell. It was a tremendous help in making things take order inside my head. As a matter of fact many (apparent) irregularities vanished and many things got fitted. I thank you all very much. Also, it was 'great' to have full paradigms and various explanations that in some sense complement each other. I appreciate your kind information very deeply. Best wishes, Leonel From xikano_1 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 7 17:08:17 1999 From: xikano_1 at hotmail.com (XiKano *) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:08:17 -0600 Subject: Document Search Message-ID: I apologize for posting this here but I do not know where else to ask. I am wanting to purchase the following document ... "Sacrificios humanos entre los Mexicas" por Yollotl Gonz?alez Torres If anyone can help, my e-mail is XiKano_1 at hotmail.com. Also, if anyone knows of an info-exchange site, like this one, where the subject is the Mexica, I would appreciate being guided there. A question such as this would be more appropriate there. Thank you. -XiKano ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Xochiquetzal at webtv.net Sun Oct 10 09:42:02 1999 From: Xochiquetzal at webtv.net (mextli) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 03:42:02 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Fw: [melchizedek-l] Fw: [goddess-l] Fwd: Fw: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Message-ID: --WebTV-Mail-20607-10197 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit --WebTV-Mail-20607-10197 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from mailsorter-103-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.103) by storefull-157.iap.bryant.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 23:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storefull-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net (storefull-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.198.219]) by mailsorter-103-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with ESMTP id A84823F for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 23:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from production at localhost) by storefull-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-d/mt.gso.26Feb98) id XAA19046; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 23:54:11 -0700 (PDT) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAj/PUfcU6/oRDHp1Vb3QJjMHM3RUCFAqRmB0MpepsQtPgHEBGgPQJSIN6 From: JAGUARantheMOON at webtv.net (Enfield Richmond de Mejia) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 02:54:11 -0400 (EDT) To: XOCHIQUETZAL at webtv.net Subject: Fwd: Fw: [melchizedek-l] Fw: [goddess-l] Fwd: Fw: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Check this out quickly and respond! Message-ID: <8616-38003813-13247 at storefull-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-20188-7259 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) --WebTV-Mail-20188-7259 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit --WebTV-Mail-20188-7259 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from mailsorter-101-4.iap.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.29) by storefull-152.iap.bryant.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from mail1.lig.bellsouth.net (mail1.lig.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.55]) by mailsorter-101-4.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-d/ms.dwm.v7+dul2) with ESMTP id WAA01740 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from premio (host-209-214-63-45.ard.bellsouth.net [209.214.63.45]) by mail1.lig.bellsouth.net (3.3.4alt/0.75.2) with SMTP id XAA26847; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:26:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001201bf113d$b3177740$2d3fd6d1 at premio> From: "Lea Greer" To: , , Cc: , , , , , , , , , , Subject: Fw: [melchizedek-l] Fw: [goddess-l] Fwd: Fw: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Check this out quickly and respond! Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:31:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 -----Original Message----- From: L.L. Pellegrini To: Melchizedek List Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 10:41 PM Subject: [melchizedek-l] Fw: [goddess-l] Fwd: Fw: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Check this out quickly and respond! > >Scroll to the bottom and check this out. If it's true, we'll all be >abundantly rewarded!!! Linda >-----Original Message----- >From: MAYAWISDOM at aol.com >To: Goddess List >Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 10:51 AM >Subject: [goddess-l] Fwd: Fw: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Check this out quickly and >respond! > > >> >> >>--part1_0.84792db4.252e336d_boundary >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >> >> >>--part1_0.84792db4.252e336d_boundary >>Content-Type: message/rfc822 >>Content-Disposition: inline >> >>Return-Path: >>Received: from rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (rly-zd05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.229]) >> by air-zd03.mail.aol.com (vx) with ESMTP; Thu, 07 Oct 1999 06:21:58 >> -0400 >>Received: from boson.b.fw.brunssum.net (boson.brunssum.net >[212.125.151.1]) >> by rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (v61.13) with ESMTP; Thu, 07 Oct 1999 06:21:48 >> -0400 >>Received: from default (q91.din.brunssum.net [212.125.144.91]) >> by boson.b.fw.brunssum.net (8.9.3/BuGless_2.10) with SMTP id MAA07712 >> for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:21:13 +0200 >>Message-ID: <005401bf10ac$e4ac9c40$5b907dd4 at default> >>From: "frans doven" >>To: >>Subject: Fw: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Check this out quickly and respond! >>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:15:31 +0200 >>Organization: brunssum.net >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset="iso-8859-1" >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>X-Priority: 3 >>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: SHY Holland >>To: berkowicz, israel ; Ansari, Davood >>; Ans Smulders ; Andrea Mariani >>; Alt, Jurgen ; Agnes Tiszai >>; A.H.Stouthamer ; >; >>; ; ; >>; ; >>; ; ; >>; ; >>; >>Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 5:40 PM >>Subject: Fw: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Check this out quickly and respond! >> >> >>> >>> Why not give it a try >>> >>> Dick Vreeswijk >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: henry truong >>> To: Bardelot, Michele ; D.Vreeswijk >>> ; Trinh, Lynn ; Vu, Ceci >>> ; Natan Amster ; jim bates >>> ; Ceri Behar ; Kelly >>Brockland >>> ; Debby Browning ; Laurence >>> Chisholm ; Cristina Cramer >; >>> Thai Ngoc Buu ; Cristina ; Dave >>> Escott ; Fernando Fonseca ; >>SHY >>> France ; Martha Lilia M?ndez Garza >>> ; SHY Italy ; juan?brown >>> ; Daeng Na Lamlieng ; John and >>Licita >>> Levy ; David Ng ; Love Terri Novak >>> ; Rob < >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 6:54 AM >>> Subject: Fwd: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Check this out quickly and respond! >>> >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > -------------Forwarded Message----------------- >>> > >>> > From: INTERNET:NATE3208 at aol.com, INTERNET:NATE3208 at aol.com >>> > To: , INTERNET:jose.watson at kp.org >>> > , INTERNET:bmw at suntrup.com >>> > , INTERNET:tauheedah.troutman at asr.co.santa-clara.ca.us >>> > Rosalind Jones, INTERNET:rjones at mail.arc.nasa.gov >>> > Carmen Redmond, INTERNET:najah777 at earthlink.net >>> > , INTERNET:RonniePhifer at ca.slr.com >>> > Deniece Moxy, INTERNET:dmoxy at cisco.com >>> > , INTERNET:CMCC1934 at aol.com >>> > Regina Jones, INTERNET:egina_Jones at gilead.com >>> > , INTERNET:wjackson at us.ibm.com >>> > , INTERNET:Stacey.Green at nsc.com >>> > , INTERNET:ynit at pacbell.net >>> > , INTERNET:Donna.Thomason at edex.edwards.af.mil >>> > , INTERNET:MCunningham at nwest.dcmdw.dla.mil >>> > , INTERNET:toni.beckham at amd.com >>> > , INTERNET:jhilton at resumix.com >>> > , INTERNET:jeromekc at pacbell.net >>> > , INTERNET:Bernice at aol.com >>> > , INTERNET:bernice.willis at lmco.com.Willis >>> > , INTERNET:Jaytch at aol.com >>> > , INTERNET:ArLyneD at aol.com >>> > , LilyHVinh >>> > >>> > Date: 10/5/99 7:51 PM >>> > >>> > RE: Fwd: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Check this out quickly and respond! >>> > >>> > ATTACHMENT part 2.2.2.2 message/rfc822 >>> > > Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 19:47:56 -0700 >>> > > From: "John W. Worley, Ph.D." >> > > >>> > > Organization: Worley's ID Profile, Inc. >>> > > To: Andy White >> > > >>> > > Subject: Check this out quickly and respond! >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > I am forwarding this because the person who sent it >>> > > to me is a very >>> > > professional business person and a good friend and >>> > > does not send me >>> > > junk. >>> > > >>> > > Microsoft and AOL are now the largest Internet >>> > > company and in an effort >>> > > make sure that Internet explorer remains the most >>> > > widely used program, >>> > > Microsoft and AOLare running an e-mail beta test. >>> > > When you forward this >>> > > e-mail to friends, Microsoft can and will track it >>> > > (if you are a >>> > > Microsoft Windows user) for a two week time period. >>> > > For every person >>> > > that you forward this e-mail to, Microsoft will pay >>> > > you $245.00, for >>> > > every person that you sent it to that forwards it >>> > > on, Microsoft will pay >>> > > you $243.00 and for every third person that receives >>> > > it, you will be >>> > > paid $241.00. Within two weeks, Microsoft will >>> > > contact you for your >>> > > address and then send you a check. I thought this >>> > > was a scam myself, >>> > > but two weeks after receiving this e-mail and >>> > > forwarding it on, >>> > > Microsoft contacted me for my e-mail and within >>> > > days, I received a check >>> > > for $24,800.00. >>> > > >>> > > You need to respond before the beta testing is over. >>> > > >>> > > If anyone can afford this Bill Gates is the man. >>> > > It's all marketing >>> > > expense to him. >>> > > >>> > > Do Well!!! >>> > > >>> > >Lily Vinh >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ----------------------- Internet >Header -------------------------------- >>> > Sender: NATE3208 at aol.com >>> > Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) >>> > by spamgaab.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.7) with ESMTP id WAA07077 >>> > for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:51:54 -0400 (EDT) >>> > From: NATE3208 at aol.com >>> > Received: from NATE3208 at aol.com >>> > by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id vRQUMphJb_ (4446); >>> > Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:49:18 -0400 (EDT) >>> > Message-ID: >>> > Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:49:16 EDT >>> > Subject: Fwd: FW: (fwd) Fwd: Check this out quickly and respond! >>> > To: ArLyneD at aol.com, Jaytch at aol.com, bernice.willis at lmco.com.Willis, >>> > Bernice at aol.com, jeromekc at pacbell.net, jhilton at resumix.com, >>> > toni.beckham at amd.com, MCunningham at nwest.dcmdw.dla.mil, >>> > Donna.Thomason at edex.edwards.af.mil, ynit at pacbell.net, >>> > Stacey.Green at nsc.com, wjackson at us.ibm.com, >>> > egina_Jones at gilead.com (Regina Jones), >>> > djlondon1 at yahoo.comdjlondon1@yahoo.com, CMCC1934 at aol.com, >>> > dmoxy at cisco.com (Deniece Moxy), RonniePhifer at ca.slr.com, >>> > najah777 at earthlink.net (Carmen Redmond), >>> > Rosalind Jones >>> > , >>> > tauheedah.troutman at asr.co.santa-clara.ca.us, bmw at suntrup.com, >>> > LilyHVinh at compuserve.com, jose.watson at kp.org >>> > MIME-Version: 1.0 >>> > Content-Type: multipart/mixed; >>boundary="part1_b073a6e7.252c12ac_boundary" >>> > X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 >>> > >>> > >>> >> >> >>--part1_0.84792db4.252e336d_boundary-- >> >> >>+------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >---- >>| Goddess List : 391 members (public) >>| http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/goddess-l.html Archive-password: gaia >>| List-Operator: Arthur Jerijian > > > > >+-------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >| Melchizedek List : 455 members (public) >| http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/melchizedek-l.html Archive-password: love >| List-Operator: William Uriel Andros > --WebTV-Mail-20188-7259-- --WebTV-Mail-20607-10197-- From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Mon Oct 11 19:17:12 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:17:12 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Fw: [melchizedek-l] Fw: [goddess-l] Fwd: Fw: FW: Message-ID: Has anyone heard of Urban Legends? This was one of them. Please do not waste your time or ours on these thiongs until you have thoroughly checked them out. J. F. Schwaller, List Owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Mon Oct 11 20:08:56 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 14:08:56 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Fw: [melchizedek-l] Fw: [goddess-l] Fwd: Fw: FW: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, John F. Schwaller wrote: | Has anyone heard of Urban Legends? This was one of them. Please do not | waste your time or ours on these thiongs until you have thoroughly checked | them out. Worse yet was the assumption that we are willing to be saddled with graphic user interfaces. Neither do I have a mouse, nor am I willing to use a GUI. That really long email fom mechizedek was complete crap, and a waste of my time. From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Oct 16 05:30:04 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:30:04 -0600 Subject: Tla:catl Message-ID: Nocnihuan, This is just a short list of examples (I have run out of time tonight, but I wanted to send it anyway). =20 As many of you know, the noun "tla:catl" (person, man) is "verbed" to indicate 'becoming a person, being born'. Further, other animals (monkeys, fish, worms, etc.) "tla:catih" -- that is, when they begin to *be*, they are referred to in the same way as a human. I just encountered an example in the Florentine Codex that was especially interesting, so I thought I'd pass it on and see what y'all might think about it. In discussing the casting of metals and the formation of a metal object, "tla:cati" is used to refer to its initiation of being. I think it's #227 below. In any case, I thought that y'all would be interested in the selected examples. Sorry for my hurry. Best regards, Joe 15. =15atlaca=15. atlaca inteouh catca, quimoteotiaya. he was the god of the water folk; they worshipped him. (b.1 f.2 c.17 p.37) 16. =15atlaca=15. quilhuiquixtiliaya in anamacaque, ihuan atlaca: ihuan ixpan tlamanaya, ihuan tlamictiaya: the water-merchants and the water folk celebrated her feast day, and before her they laid offerings and slew victims. (b.1 f.5 c.Ap p.71) 17. =15atlaca=15. quitoque ca inteouh, in atlaca, they said he was the god of the water folk. (b.1 f.5 c.Ap p.73) 47. =15atlacanemi=15. yehuantin oncan tlacati in zan tlatlanezomaltia tpnc tlanezomaltitinemi, zan tlatahueliloc, yollotlahueliloc, teuhtli, tlazolli cololotinemi, tlalli cololotinemi, atlacanemi, iztlacattinemi, tlaahuilquixtitinemi, ayac quimauhcaitta, born then were those who became evil-tempered on earth--who vented their wrath; the completely perverted and mad, who lived surrounded by vice, sin, given to talk, the dissolute, living in deceit; the prodigals, fearing no one, presumptuous, respecting no one, esteeming no one; treating no one with reserve. (b.4 f.5 c.13 p.50) 48. =15atlacatl=15. atlacatl ichan. is the home of the monster. (b.2 f.14 c.38 p.242) 73. =15i-chantlaca=15. auh in ichantlaca: niman ihcuac compehualtia in tlamazehuaya, . and his household thereupon began the penances. (b.4 f.7 c.19 p.67) 74. =15i-tlacatiliz=15. auh in itlacatiliz: itech motta in icuech, in ce xihuitl centetl quiza;. and its birth date is noted from its rattles; each year, one erupts. (b.11 f.8 c.5 p.76) 119. =15ilamatlaca=15. motlahuancatlalia in huehuetlaca, in ye chicahuaque, in otlachicalhuique, in ye cuaiztaque, in ye tzoniztaque, ihuan ilamatlaca in ilamatque: yehuan huel innemac catca, in octli in quizque. the old men sat drinking wine--those already advanced in age, the well-matured, the gray-headed, the white-haired, the old women, those whose privilege it was to drink wine. (b.1 f.2 c.21 p.48) 120. =15ilamatlaca=15. auh matlaquilhuitl, in quicihuapancuicatiaya, ixquichtin cenquiza, quicecencahua in iztatlaca, in iztachiuhque: in ilamatlaca, ihuan in inyolloco cihua, ihuan ichpopochti, ihuan in ye ichpopochchicacti: and for ten days there sang [and danced] for her in the manner of women all who came together, who gathered together of the salt people, the salt makers -- the old women, and the mature women, and the maidens, and those who were maidens recently matured. (b.2 f.4 c.26 p.93) 121. =15ilamatlaca=15. yoyin in otechmozcaltilitiaque, in motecuiyotzitzihuan, in toteucyohuan in cihuapipilti, in ilamatlaca in tzoniztaque, in cuaiztaque: thy lords, our lords, the noble women, the old women, the white-haired ones, the white-headed ones reared us in such a manner as this. (b.6 f.9 c.19 p.101) 122. =15ilamatlacatl=15. ce ilamatlacatl in tlatoa. one of the old women spoke. (b.6 f.12 c.27 p.151) 123. =15ilamatlacatl=15. ic cempoalli onchicome capitulo, oncan mitoa: in quenin ce ilamatlacatl in telpocheque, anozo ceme in ichpocheque: quinonotzaya, quitlatlauhtiaya in ticitl, inic quiceliz in itech quicahuaya in otztli: twenty-seventh chapter. here it is told how an old woman relative of the youth, or one of the [old women] relatives of the girl advised, entreated the midwife to receive the pregnant woman whom they had left in her charge;. (b.6 f.12 c.27 p.151) 124. =15ilamatlacatl=15. ilamatzin, ilamatlacatl, calyollotl, tlacpehualli, tlapixqui. the revered old woman, the noble old woman [is] one who never abandons the house, who is covered with ashes, who guards [the home]. (b.10 f.1 c.3 p.11) 135. =15itlacatiliz=15. in zan tlahueliloti, tlahuelilocati, in zan ahye otli quitoca, atle onquiza, zan inehuian mopopoloa, motelchihua, mixpopoyomictia, mihyecoa, conmixcahualtia conmocahuilia, quimitlacalhuia, in imahcehual yezquia, in itonal, in inemac, quiteuhyotia, quitlazollotia, quitlazolmictia in itlacatiliz: if he became bad and perverse and followed not the way of righteousness, succeeded in nothing, and entirely by his own acts brought himself to ruin, despised himself, brought harm to himself, failed, lost through his own neglect, gave up, and endangered that which might be his good fortune,--his reward, and his lot: then he tarnished, polluted, and ruined with debauchery his birthright. (b.4 f.1 c.1 p.2) 136. =15itlacatiliz=15. iuhqui ipan tlacat, iuhqui itlacatiliz: on such a day was he born; thus was his birthright. (b.4 f.1 c.2 p.5) 137. =15itlacatiliz=15. ic mitoaya, ca niman iuh quiz, iuhqui iyoliliz, iuhqui itlacatiliz, iuhqui itonal, thus was it stated: "just so is her nature; so is her life; so her birthright; and so her day sign. (b.4 f.1 c.2 p.6) 138. =15itlacatiliz=15. mitoa ic quichicoquixtia, quicualtilia, in itlacatiliz, it was said that thus in part they reversed and made good his birth. (b.4 f.10 c.30 p.100) 139. =15itlacatiliz=15. intlacayemo aci yohualli xelihui: oc nepa cemilhuitl ipan pohui, in ipan otlacat: oc nepa tonalli itech pouhqui in itlacatiliz: if the division of the night had not already arrived, it belonged in this day in which it was born; to this day sign was assigned its birth. (b.6 f.16 c.36 p.197) 155. =15mo-tlacacuepa=15. intlanel yaotitlan, in tzacui, in tzauctica, tetlan onnemi, huel calaqui, motlacacuepa. in case they were besieged, enclosed, in enemy lands, living among others, having penetrated well within, they became like their enemies. (b.1 f.2 c.19 p.42) 156. =15mo-tlacacuepaya=15. (auh miecpa motlacacuepaya in espa=A4oles,=20 (and often the spaniards disguised themselves. (b.12 f.7 c.38 p.114) 192. =15nentlacatl=15. tlacatle totecue, ma oc yehuatl xicmottili, in cuahuic onoc, in tlalli ixco ca, in aya quimomachitia: motolinia in icnotlacatl, in nentlacatl, in aahuia, in ahuellamati: auh in aic totonia, in aic yamania: auh in aic huellamati, in iiomio, in inacayo: in zan cen tohtonehuatinemi, in za cen chichichinacatinemi in iyollo: "o master, o our lord, consider yet those who lie on the board, those who are on the ground, those who know nothing, the poor, the miserable, the useless, those who rejoice not, the discontented, those who never have the necessities of life, those never comfortable of bone, of flesh--those who all together live suffering great pain, great affliction of heart. (b.6 f.1 c.1 p.4) 193. =15nentlacatl=15. cententica, ac cencamatica nimitznotza, nimitztzatzilia: in ica in ipampa, in cuitlapilli, in atlapalli: in nentlacatl in aquimatinemi, in nennemi, in nencochi, in nenmehua: in quinenquixtia in motlacatzin, in moyohualtzin: in one word, or two, i call to thee, i cry out to thee for--on behalf of--the vassals, the useless; the ignorant; the vagabonds; those who sleep, who arise to no purpose; those who waste thy day, thy night. (b.6 f.1 c.2 p.7) 194. =15nentlacatl=15. in icnotlacatl, in nentlacatl, in aahuia in ahuellamati, in cococ in teopohqui quimati: [they are] the poor, the useless, the unhappy, the discontented, the anguished. (b.6 f.1 c.2 p.9) 195. =15nentlacatl=15. cuix ica timotlatemolia in macehualli, in amo tlacamati, in aompa ehehua: auh in aihihuia, in nentlacatl, in zan quipictinemi tlalticpac. wilt thou perhaps seek one wherewith [to replace] the commoner, the disobedient one who understandeth things backwards and who is impulsive, who is useless, who liveth in vain on earth?. (b.6 f.2 c.4 p.18) 218. =15nictlacacihuitia=15. nictlacacihuitia, nicmachtia, i domesticate it; i teach it. (b.11 f.5 c.2 p.48) 219. =15nictlacacihuitia=15. nicnemitia, nictlacacihuitia. i breed it, i domesticate it. (b.11 f.5 c.2 p.49) 227. =15o-tlacat=15. auh in otlacat, in omopitz, in oquiz tlachihualli: niman motlaxxocohuiya tepozcaxic, ipan mocuacualatza: and when the piece has been formed, when it has been cast, when it comes forth, then it is treated with alum; in a copper vessel it is boiled. (b.9 f.6 c.16 p.78) From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Mon Oct 18 00:13:34 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 18:13:34 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: I run a motel on the Oregon coast, and employ a desk clerk of Aztec extraction, and this clerk speaks Nahuatl as his native language, and Spanish as his second language, and English as his third. We quoted the customer a price for three days, and encouraged the customer to inspect the room, and after he did, he came back and paid the price. About two hours later, the customer comes back to the office and seeks a refund for the second and third day, deciding he would only rent the room for one day, and we rearrange the books to indicate that fact, refunding him the 2 days not stayed. Rearranging the books is not necessarily a simple matter; we require him to produce the receipt we just issued him; he complains; he looks around for 15 minutes, making a scene, and then finally 'finds' it. We rearrange the books, cancelling the old receipt and issuing him a new receipt reflecting the terms of the license (not a lease) to enter upon the premises. About two hours later, the customer comes back again, and this time says he would like to pay for the second day because he'd "changed his mind" again. Fine, we ask him to produce his receipt. He complains again. He eventually searches his car and produces his receipt. We cancel it, and issue him another receipt, this time indicating two days. Towards closing time, he comes back and says he has decided on staying just one day, and needs the second day refunded. Fine, we go through the same old rigamarole, and he leaves. My desk clerk says then that customers like that, well, he calls him a mimik or momik or something like that, and says that that is what a "kook customer" is. I can't find this word in Karttunen's Dictionary. What is the derivation for this word? Have I written it down wrong, or heard it wrong? (I have only begun to read up on Nahuatl, and am put off a little bit by the Spanish spelling conventions, so I naturally have a lot more to learn.) Any help to explain his choice of words to describe customers that vaccilate, cannot make up their mind, or do not know what they want? From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 18 05:42:30 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:42:30 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, we called such people Los Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said something like "miquic" (a dead person) implying that he did not belong in this world. Where is your Nahuatl-speaking employee from? Why are you put off by the Spanish spelling conventions. It's as much a part of the language as the Norman conquest impacted spelling (and other things) in English. I have a running argument with friends in the Sierra Norte de Puebla who want to rid Nahuatl from anything that looks like Spanish spelling (as an act of indigenous pride) and use the spelling of some linguists, i.e. ki for qui, wi for hui, etc. This revisionism seems short-sighted. Moreover, they go out of their way to create neologisms in Nahuatl for things that are plainly of Spanish origin, eg, the Holy Trinity etc. Best, Richard Haly ---------- >From: Matthew Montchalin >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) >Date: Sun, Oct 17, 1999, 18:14 > > and am put off a little > bit by the Spanish spelling conventions From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Mon Oct 18 06:07:50 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 00:07:50 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: Richard Haly wrote: | I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, we called such people Los | Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said something like "miquic" (a dead | person) implying that he did not belong in this world. Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's "mimiki" (however you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, and seems to bear the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, perhaps a long i. I wonder if it is pejorative, maybe something along the lines of "idiot" or "jerk?" But your connecting it with the verb for dying might be a very good lead. How about the related (transitive) verb mictia, "to kill, mistreat someone?" Might it denote someone that ought to "drop dead?" So far as I can tell, Nahuatl is one of the most amazing languages that I have ever run into. :) | Where is your Nahuatl-speaking employee from? Oh, somewheres north by northeast of Mexico City, a hundred (?) miles or so. Something of a vagabond spirit that has finally chosen to settle down, and has spent the last five or six years here in Oregon. From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Mon Oct 18 06:22:00 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 00:22:00 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Richard Haly wrote: | Why are you put off by the Spanish spelling conventions. Because it is devilishly difficult figuring out where the long vowels are, short of using macrons superscribed over the vowels. But the simplest compromise is just to capitalize the vowels if they are long, or leave 'em in lowercase if they are short. Also, spelling the very common 'w' sound with one character is a lot easier than using the hu digraph. Finally, memorizing the rules about when a 'c' is an 's' and when it is not, is just extra work that could be put to better use in other ways. | It's as much a part of the language as the Norman conquest impacted | spelling (and other things) in English. Yes, modern Nahuatl is probably a far cry from Classical Nahuatl. (sigh) From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Oct 18 07:20:21 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 01:20:21 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: Matthew, When I saw your first message, I thought it was *probably* from "miqui" 'die', but "momik" would be reflexive and "miqui" is intransitive, so that's out. "mimik" could be a reduplicated form, meaning among other things, continuation or intensity, but it would depend on the dialect being one of those that didn't glue on an "o-" prefix to indicate pastness -- the loss of the final "i" of "miki/miqui" would indicate pastness. In "classical Nahuatl", "miqui" frequently indicated not necessarily literal death, but simply disfunction. "apizmiqui" meant 'he's dying of hunger or just he's hungry.' It was associated with numbness in the body -- we are only speaking figuratively in English when we say 'my foot is dead'. If I say "ni-xoco-miqui" (pardon my Hispanic orthography habit), I don't mean that I'm *dying* for or from wine (sourness =3D wine - from th= e grape or whatever source), but I mean that I am winely disfunctional. Richard referred to one of the modern dialect's form of dead person: miquic?? In "classical", the adjective would be "micqui". A person who was "toto-micqui" would not be literally dead, just impotent ("tototl" means 'bird'). It sounds to me like he was making an observation about the guy's competence -- he is continually disfunctional. Could you ask your employee what state he's from, the name of the village, and the nearest larger town? It would be interesting to try to identify the dialect. =20 =20 > So far as I can tell, Nahuatl is one of the most amazing languages that I > have ever run into. :) >=20 I highly admire your taste in languages. Best regards, Joe p.s. Here are some examples from the Florentine Codex; I had hoped that this list would turn out to be more fruitful, but..... 62. *ixmimiqui*. achtopa quinpepenaya in mimatini, in mozcaliani, in tlanemiliani, in mocxiyehecoani, in amo icximimiquini: in cenca tlamahuiztiliani, in cualli intlatol, in chicahuac, in coanezqui: in moch quitquiticac in innacayo, in itlachieliz in amo ixmahmahui, in amo ixmimiqui: in acan mixtzacuilia in huel imicxitlan tlachie: first they selected those who were wise, able, prudent; the agile, not the halt; the very honorable, the well-spoken, the strong, the gracious hosts; those of good bearing [and] appearance, not cowardly, nor bewildered, nor shy; those of stalwart gaze. (b.9 f.3 c.7 p.34) 63. *ixmimiquiliztli*. ixcuepoctli: ixpopoyotiliztli ixtezcaihcihuiztli, ixtotolicihuiztli, ixmimiquiliztli, ixpopoyotlachializtli. squint eyes, blindness, blindness from cataracts, sun-blindness, blinded vision. (b.10 f.8 c.28 p.144) 10. *apizmic*. temamauhti in tzacualoc, huel tonac in apizmic: it terrified one, when they were shut in, that indeed in large numbers they died of hunger. (b.12 f.7 c.35 p.105) 21. *axixmiqui*. intla ye aca axixmiqui, in zan icel yoaltica quiza: in ahzo metztona, anozo tlayohua: ihcuac quimottitia: if someone wished to urinate, and went forth quite alone at night, when, perhaps, the moon shone or it was dark, then they appeared to him. (b.5 f.2 c.13 p.179) 24. *ciammiquiliztli*. ca ye toconmatiz, ye toconixcahuiz, ye toconcenmatiz in netoliniliztli, in apizmiquiliztli, in teocihuiliztli, in amiquiliztli, in atetzocoaquiliztli, in ciammiquiliztli: for now shalt thou come to know, feel, and deal exclusively with misery, hunger, starvation, thirst, emptiness, fatigue. (b.4 f.6 c.17 p.62) 39. *icximimiqui*. inic aca itech quinehuaya, tlahuelilocati, tennecuilihui, ixnecuilihui, matzicolihui, icxicopichahui, icximimiqui, momacuecuetza, tencualacquiza: when one was under their spell, possessed, one's mouth was twisted, one's face was contorted; one lacked use of a hand; one's feet were misshapen -one's feet were deadened; one's hand trembled; one foamed at the mouth. (b.1 f.1 c.10 p.19) 40. *icximimiquia*. inic aca itech quinehuaya, in tlahuelilocatia, tennecuilihuia, ixnecuilihuia, matzicolihuiaya, icxicopichahuia: icximimiquia, momacuecuetzaya, tencualacquizaya: when someone was under their spell, he was possessed, his mouth was twisted, his face contorted, he lacked use of a hand, his feet were misshapen, his feet were deadened, his hand trembled, he foamed at the mouth. (b.1 f.5 c.Ap p.72) 64. *iztamicqui*. in tlahueliloc ayohuachnamacac, quinamaca in ayohuachpalan, in quipihyac, in chichic, in ayohuachtlacectli, iztacuahuitl, iztachichic, tlaztamictilli, iztamicqui ;. the bad seller of gourd seeds sells spoiled, stinking, bitter ones; toasted gourd seeds [which are] too salty, bitter with salt, briny. (b.10 f.4 c.18 p.68) 338. *mimiqui*. amo huel quitoca, zan onciammiqui, onmociauhcanequi, mimiqui in inacayo, za otlica chachapantiuh, ayocmo huel nenemi:=20 he could not pursue it; he was exhausted, vexed; deadened was his body; he only went flattened on the ground; he could walk no more. (b.5 f.1 c.3 p.159) 339. *mimiqui*. in momazacoahuiani, intla elti, iciuhca mimiqui: he who partaketh of the ma=87acoatl, if aggressive, quickly dieth. (b.6 f.10 c.22 p.126) 340. *mimiqui*. no inamic, in mimiqui tlatlaci piltontli, also it is the remedy when the child has a fatal cough. (b.10 f.9 c.28 p.159) 341. *mimiqui*. inic mitoa quimichpatli: in quiquimichti, tlacualli quin nelhuia, intla quicua ic mimiqui, tlatlacocotoca in incuitlaxcol. it is called quimichpatli for this reason: it is food [for] mice, because, it is asserted, if they eat it, they die of it; their intestines break up. (b.11 f.13 c.7 p.131) 342. *mimiqui*. in mimiqui, in cecepoa tocxi, anozo telpan mococoa: yehuatl quicehuia in cocolli, for one whose feet are deadened, benumbed, or who suffers from a chest ailment, this alleviates the ailment. (b.11 f.15 c.7 p.160) 343. *mimiqui*. ihuan in aquin mimiqui, in quin opeuh coni, and he who has epilepsy, after it has just begun, drinks it. (b.11 f.15 c.7 p.160) 344. *mimiqui*. auh in ihcuac aca huel ic mimiqui in iyollopan in omocentlali alahuac: moteci in iztauhyatl, ihuan in cuauhyayahual yehuatl in iyollo itlacoyo: moxixipehua in ipan iehuayo, and when someone is anguished in his heart, or a humor is oppressive, iztauhyatl and quauhyayaual are ground up, that is, the center of the stalks; its surface bark is peeled off. (b.11 f.16 c.7 p.165) 667. *miquizhiyaltic*. huel temamauhti in iyel: huel ihyac, miquizhiyaltic, ihyalpatic: frightful is its spray, truly stinking, a deathly stench, a bad stench. (b.11 f.2 c.1 p.13) 794. *ocihuamic*. quicua in aquin icnooquichtli, in ye huecauh ocihuamic, inic amo cocoyez in ipampa itlalnamiquiliz in itechpa cihuatl: ca quicehuia in tonacayo, in cenca techtolinia itechpa cihuatl. and one who is a widower, whose wife has died long ago, eats it in order that he will not suffer because of his thoughts regarding women; for it quiets his body which suffers much with regard to women. (b.11 f.19 c.7 p.190) 1043. *tetlamictilia*. quil ic tetlamictilia: it is said that he thereby makes one impotent. (b.11 f.6 c.2 p.54) 1044. *tetlamictilia*. tetlamictilia in totoli iyacacuitl: the erectile process of the turkey makes one impotent. (b.11 f.6 c.2 p.54) 1045. *tetlanmimictia*. teitipozahua teiztlacmeyaltia, tetlanmimictia, tetlancecepoa, . it swells one's stomach, causes one to salivate, deadens one's teeth, sets one's teeth on edge. (b.11 f.12 c.6 p.118) 1046. *teyolmictia*. temacpalitotia tecochtlaza, teyolmictia, tezotlahua, he dances with a dead woman's forearm; he robs by casting a spell, causing people to faint, to swoon. (b.10 f.2 c.11 p.39) 1047. *teyolmictia*. in canin tlacua ocelotl: achtopa, tehipotza, ic teyolmictia, ic tezotlahua. wherever the ocelot eats, first it hisses at one in order to terrify one--to make him swoon away. (b.11 f.1 c.1 p.3) 1111. *xocomic*. ic macuilli in quic, ic huel ihuintic, huel xocomic, aocmo quima in quenin nen: thus he drank five, with which he became well besotted, quite drunk; he no longer knew how he acted. (b.10 f.12 c.29 p.193) 1112. *xocomiccayotl*. pipillo, coconeyo, ihuincayotl, xocomiccayotl: babyishness, childishness, besottedness, drunkenness. (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.250) 1113. *xocomiccayotl*. in ihcuac aca huel itla quichihua, anozo huellatoa: amo quitoaya in aquin. in cenca huel onoconchiuh, anozo huel onitlato: zan quitoa. onoconchiuh, anozo onoconito in pipillotl, in coconeyotl, in ihuincayotl, xocomiccayotl: anozo in chocholocayotl, in aaccayotl: when one did something well or spoke well, he did not say: "i did it very well," or, "i spoke well"; he just said: "i have performed, or i have said a thing of babyishness, of childishness, of besottedness, of drunkenness; or of folly, of imperfection. (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.250) 1114. *xocomicqui*. in tlahuelliloc tetzon tetlapololtiani, tlaixmamateloani, ihuintitl, tlahuanqui xocomicqui, the bad one of noble lineage [is] a scandalizer, a flatterer --a drinker, besotted, drunk. (b.10 f.1 c.5 p.20) 1115. *xocomicqui*. xoxouhcaoctli quitinemi, mihuintiani, cuatlahueliloc, iyellelacic, xocomicqui, tlahuanqui, he goes about drinking crude wine --a drunkard, foolish, dejected; a drunk, a sot. (b.10 f.2 c.11 p.37) 1165. *zozotlacmiqui*. auh intla za oc aca nenitztoc, aoc huel molinia, aoc huel mocuechinia, aoc huel momapatla, huel zozotlahua, zozotlacmiqui in inma, in imicxi, and if now some only in vain sat looking, they could not move, nor stir, nor resist. they were stunned; their arms and legs were deadened. (b.4 f.10 c.31 p.103) From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Mon Oct 18 07:45:34 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 01:45:34 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: | In "classical Nahuatl", "miqui" frequently indicated not necessarily | literal death, but simply disfunction. "apizmiqui" meant 'he's dying of | hunger or just he's hungry.' Okay, gotcha. Like when people are 'dying for a burger' -- that sort of thing. | 'It was associated with numbness in the body -- we are only speaking | figuratively in English when we say 'my foot is dead'. Wellll.... I think we tend to say that our foot has fallen 'asleep' rather than actually dying... | If I say "ni-xoco-miqui" (pardon my Hispanic orthography habit), | I don't mean that I'm *dying* for or from wine (sourness =3D wine | - from th= e grape or whatever source), but I mean that I am winely | disfunctional. Not having the ability to discriminate good wine from bad? Or just dizzy (impaired) from the wine? | Richard referred to one of the modern dialect's form of dead person: | miquic?? In "classical", the adjective would be "micqui". A person | who was "toto-micqui" would not be literally dead, just impotent | ("tototl" means 'bird'). Okay. :) | It sounds to me like he was making an observation about the guy's | competence -- he is continually disfunctional. Or having such an absence of bearing that he doesn't whether he is coming or going? | Could you ask your employee what state he's from, the name of the | village, and the nearest larger town? It would be interesting to try | to identify the dialect. =20 Okay, I'll ask him. From cberry at cinenet.net Mon Oct 18 17:11:50 1999 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:11:50 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > Richard Haly wrote: > | I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, we called such people Los > | Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said something like "miquic" (a dead > | person) implying that he did not belong in this world. > > Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's "mimiki" (however > you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, and seems to bear > the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, perhaps a long i. Sounds like a distorted plural for "dead people" -- which seems appropriate. -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling From jackie.meloche at ualberta.ca Mon Oct 18 17:26:54 1999 From: jackie.meloche at ualberta.ca (Meloche, Jackie) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:26:54 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: You people are all way ahead of me. I have always been fascinated by Aztecs, but I don't have your expertise. I mostly study their culture and calendar and mysticism. How do I get removed from the list? -----Original Message----- From: Craig Berry [mailto:cberry at cinenet.net] Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 11:12 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > Richard Haly wrote: > | I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, we called such people Los > | Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said something like "miquic" (a dead > | person) implying that he did not belong in this world. > > Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's "mimiki" (however > you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, and seems to bear > the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, perhaps a long i. Sounds like a distorted plural for "dead people" -- which seems appropriate. -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 18 20:14:26 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:14:26 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: Greetings: Is your Nahuatl-speaking employee from the Sierra Norte de Puebla? Though NNE could be in Hidalgo. The Sierra Norte de Puebla is about 100 mi (or more) ENE of DF. An exact location can help with an exact translation. Mimiki or perhaps mijmikki (aka. mihmicqui) could be translated "bird of ill omen" in the Sierra Norte de Puebla. It would come from the Land of the Dead and would disrupt the order of talticpac, the middle world in which we spend most of our time. Just plain mikki is a dead person. mijmikki wd be "someone who having died repeatedly comes" which means someone who has made more than one journey to the Land of the Dead and now comes here, thus, the omen. qualli yetoc nejin. Richard Haly ---------- >From: Matthew Montchalin >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) >Date: Mon, Oct 18, 1999, 0:08 > > Where is your Nahuatl-speaking employee from? > > Oh, somewheres north by northeast of Mexico City, a hundred (?) miles or > so. From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Oct 18 21:04:24 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:04:24 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > > | If I say "ni-xoco-miqui" (pardon my Hispanic orthography habit), > | I don't mean that I'm *dying* for or from wine (sourness =3D wine > | - from th= e grape or whatever source), but I mean that I am winely > | disfunctional. > > Not having the ability to discriminate good wine from bad? Or just dizzy > (impaired) from the wine? > Winely disfunctional = drunk (At first, I thought you might be hinting about something you knew about either Richard or me |8-<) ) From Yaoxochitl at aol.com Mon Oct 18 22:23:03 1999 From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:23:03 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: I was wondering, what does Nahuatltlahto mean? From Yaoxochitl at aol.com Mon Oct 18 22:26:17 1999 From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:26:17 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: Is there anyone that can help me locate these Nahuatl-speaking people so that I may learn to speak it myself? From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Tue Oct 19 00:36:02 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 18:36:02 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 1999 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote: | Is there anyone that can help me locate these Nahuatl-speaking people so | that I may learn to speak it myself? I bet it's not Classical Nahuatl, that's for sure. With a heaping dose of Spanish mixed in. From mikegaby at hotmail.com Tue Oct 19 01:08:38 1999 From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:08:38 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: Jackie, Don't unsubscribe yet. I cannot begin to describe how much I have learned just "listening-in". The knowlege collected in the minds on this list is absolutely amazing, and if you are really interested in ancient Meso.. cultures you would do well to subscribe to Aztlan as well. And feel free to ask questions on subjects that interest you. Maybe there is someone out there just itching to share the same interests. Calender and mysticism, eh? Mike Gaby San Diego >From: "Meloche, Jackie" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: RE: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) >Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:27:15 -0600 > >You people are all way ahead of me. I have always been fascinated by >Aztecs, but I don't have your expertise. I mostly study their culture and >calendar and mysticism. > How do I get removed from the list? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Craig Berry [mailto:cberry at cinenet.net] > Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 11:12 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook >customer?) > > On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > > > Richard Haly wrote: > > | I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, we called >such people Los > > | Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said something like >"miquic" (a dead > > | person) implying that he did not belong in this world. > > > > Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's >"mimiki" (however > > you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, >and seems to bear > > the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, >perhaps a long i. > > Sounds like a distorted plural for "dead people" -- which >seems > appropriate. > > -- > | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net > --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html > | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them > a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Tue Oct 19 01:48:50 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:48:50 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: For those of us just beginning to learn Nahuatl, what are the best publications to get? So far. I have Karttunen's Analytical Dictionary and Sullivan's Grammatical Compendium. I may be hoping against odds, but are there any comic books published in Nahuatl? Modern or otherwise? For instance, something akin to the Asterix series in Latin? From Yaoxochitl at aol.com Tue Oct 19 04:24:02 1999 From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 22:24:02 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: The Florentine Codex by Fray San Bernardino de Sahagun is an excellent source on Classical Nahuatl in Spanish, English, and Nahuatl. Also the Codex Molina is a good one. If u have the money, Yale University offers an intensive 8 week Nahuatl course and it counts to a whole year's worth of college credit. That is a start... From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Tue Oct 19 04:38:10 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 22:38:10 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 1999 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote: | The Florentine Codex by Fray San Bernardino de Sahagun is an excellent | source on Classical Nahuatl in Spanish, English, and Nahuatl. Also the | Codex Molina is a good one. >>From the excerpts I've seen so far, those documents are indeed a nice thing to read and scrutinize. | If u have the money, Yale University offers an intensive 8 week Nahuatl | course and it counts to a whole year's worth of college credit. I'm *really* burned out on the university scene. (Ten years of Classical Latin, four or five years of German, a bunch of other languages two years apiece. To that you might even add in some law school where I ended up lecturing the professor on Latin, rather than the other way around...) Actually, I was thinking of something that would provide me with pleasant diversion, like a comic book, or a book on fairy tales (like those of the Brothers Grimm). :) Surely there *is* a market for that sort of thing, *somewhere* in the world? From heatherhess at hotmail.com Tue Oct 19 04:52:03 1999 From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 22:52:03 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: How can I sign up for Aztlan? I am fairly new on this chat line and have to say I agree with you Mike - before I was on a dance chat line that was extremely active - 40 messages or so per day! there was a lot of bubble-gum messages but by reading through and ignoring what I wasn't interested in I learned extremely valuable info! Heather >From: "mike gaby" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: RE: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) >Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:08:58 -0600 > >Jackie, >Don't unsubscribe yet. I cannot begin to describe how much I have learned >just "listening-in". The knowlege collected in the minds on this list is >absolutely amazing, and if you are really interested in ancient Meso.. >cultures you would do well to subscribe to Aztlan as well. And feel free >to >ask questions on subjects that interest you. Maybe there is someone out >there just itching to share the same interests. Calender and mysticism, >eh? >Mike Gaby >San Diego > > > >From: "Meloche, Jackie" > >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > >To: Multiple recipients of list > >Subject: RE: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) > >Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:27:15 -0600 > > > >You people are all way ahead of me. I have always been fascinated by > >Aztecs, but I don't have your expertise. I mostly study their culture and > >calendar and mysticism. > > How do I get removed from the list? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Craig Berry [mailto:cberry at cinenet.net] > > Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 11:12 AM > > To: Multiple recipients of list > > Subject: Re: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook > >customer?) > > > > On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > > > > > Richard Haly wrote: > > > | I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, we called > >such people Los > > > | Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said something like > >"miquic" (a dead > > > | person) implying that he did not belong in this world. > > > > > > Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's > >"mimiki" (however > > > you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, > >and seems to bear > > > the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, > >perhaps a long i. > > > > Sounds like a distorted plural for "dead people" -- which > >seems > > appropriate. > > > > -- > > | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net > > --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html > > | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them > > a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Oct 19 06:03:13 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 00:03:13 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: Enrique Garcia Escamilla, Tlahtolnahuatilli: curso elemental de nahuatl clasico en 15 fasciculos (Mexico, DF: Plaza y Valdes). They printed 3000 copies in 1994 -- and it has comic book pages!! Folktales (in a modern dialect not all *that* far from "classical" Nahuatl: Pablo Gonzalez Casanova, Cuentos indigenas (Mexico, DF: UNAM). Mine is dated 1965, but newer editions are available. > > Actually, I was thinking of something that would provide me with pleasant > diversion, like a comic book, or a book on fairy tales (like those of the > Brothers Grimm). :) Surely there *is* a market for that sort of thing, > *somewhere* in the world? > From karl-heinz.gruessner at ub.uni-tuebingen.de Tue Oct 19 09:48:06 1999 From: karl-heinz.gruessner at ub.uni-tuebingen.de (Karl-Heinz Gruessner) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 03:48:06 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:48:44 -0600 > Reply-to: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > From: Matthew Montchalin > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Publications > > For those of us just beginning to learn Nahuatl, what are the best > publications to get? So far. I have Karttunen's Analytical Dictionary > and Sullivan's Grammatical Compendium. > > I may be hoping against odds, but are there any comic books published in > Nahuatl? Modern or otherwise? For instance, something akin to the > Asterix series in Latin? > Hi, Maybe that's something to be read by those beginning to study Nahautl: Aesop's fables in Nahuatl with German and English translations>>>> >>>>>>Aesopus; Kutscher, Gerdt >>>>>>Aesop in Mexiko : d. Fabeln d. Aesop in aztekischer Sprache ; >>>>>>Texte mit dt. u. engl. ?bers. / aus d. Nachlass von Gerdt >>>>>>Kutscher hrsg. von Gordon Brotherston u. G?nter Vollmer. - >>>>>>>Berlin : Gebr. Mann, 1987.- 259 S. : Ill. >>>>>>> (Stimmen indianischer V?lker ; 3) ISBN 3-7861-1509-5 >>>>>>> Universit?tsbibliothek T?bingen >>>>>>>>Signatur (call nr): 32 A 18774 The book could still be available. Greetings Karl-Heinz Gruessner University Library Tuebingen ---------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Karl-Heinz Gruessner Universitaetsbibliothek Postfach 2620 D-72016 Tuebingen Tel.: (49) +7071-294539 Fax.: (49) +7071-293123 ---------------------------------------------------------- From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Oct 19 11:30:50 1999 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 05:30:50 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: The Kartunnen-Campbell grammar is a great place to start. You can order that from Fritz Schwaller, the owner of this list. On Mon, 18 Oct 1999 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote: > The Florentine Codex by Fray San Bernardino de Sahagun is an excellent source > on Classical Nahuatl in Spanish, English, and Nahuatl. Also the Codex Molina > is a good one. If u have the money, Yale University offers an intensive 8 > week Nahuatl course and it counts to a whole year's worth of college credit. > That is a start... > From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Oct 19 14:37:34 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:37:34 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: Campbell, Joe R. and Frances Karttunen, Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar. Vol. I: Text and Exercises; vol. II: Vocabulary and Key (Missoula: University of Montana, 1997) 336p. & 272p. $32.70 for both volumes, shipping included. This introduction to Nahuatl was prepared for a six-week summer course at the Univ. of Texas at Austin in 1989. Even though these authors describe their work as a "foundation course for learning Nahuatl," in truth it is much more than this because they in fact deliver a thorough grammatical analysis of the language. The first volume contains a detailed grammatical portion, complemented by practical exercises. The second volume is a thematic vocabulary, also including morphological and syntactical exercises. It is currently the only comprehensive introduction to Nahuatl available in English. To order, send check payable to The University of Montana to: Dr. J. F. Schwaller Office of the Provost The University of Montana Missoula, MT 59812-1340 John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr Tue Oct 19 14:40:39 1999 From: lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr (Patrick LESBRE) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:40:39 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: If I remenber well you can find in Mexico some book more or less similar to comic, made by Joaquin GALARZA in order to teach nahuatl for children. At least you will find may drawings, but not Asterix! =20 At 22:39 18/10/99 -0600, vous avez =E9crit: >On Mon, 18 Oct 1999 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote: > >| The Florentine Codex by Fray San Bernardino de Sahagun is an excellent >| source on Classical Nahuatl in Spanish, English, and Nahuatl. Also the >| Codex Molina is a good one. > >>>From the excerpts I've seen so far, those documents are indeed a nice >thing to read and scrutinize. > >| If u have the money, Yale University offers an intensive 8 week Nahuatl >| course and it counts to a whole year's worth of college credit. =20 > >I'm *really* burned out on the university scene. (Ten years of Classical >Latin, four or five years of German, a bunch of other languages two years >apiece. To that you might even add in some law school where I ended up >lecturing the professor on Latin, rather than the other way around...) > >Actually, I was thinking of something that would provide me with pleasant >diversion, like a comic book, or a book on fairy tales (like those of the >Brothers Grimm). :) Surely there *is* a market for that sort of thing, >*somewhere* in the world? > > > ___________________ Patrick LESBRE Universit=E9 de Toulouse le Mirail 32 rue la Fonderie 31000 TOULOUSE t=E9l./fax 33(0)5 61 14 26 99 email lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr From J_Taggart at ACAD.FANDM.EDU Tue Oct 19 14:43:26 1999 From: J_Taggart at ACAD.FANDM.EDU (James Taggart) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:43:26 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: >Dear Matthew, If you are looking for Nahuat versions of the Grimm's stories, you can find them in the appendix to my The Bear and His Sons (Texas, 1997) and in the unpublished companion volume containing several texts. The stories are written with Karttunen's orthography. Nahuat is very close to Nahuatl. Jim Taggart For those of us just beginning to learn Nahuatl, what are the best >publications to get? So far. I have Karttunen's Analytical Dictionary >and Sullivan's Grammatical Compendium. > >I may be hoping against odds, but are there any comic books published in >Nahuatl? Modern or otherwise? For instance, something akin to the >Asterix series in Latin? James M. Taggart Lewis Audenreid Professor of History and Archaeology Department of Anthropology Franklin and Marshall College Lancaster, PA 17604-3003 tel. 717-291-4038 J_Taggart at ACAD.FANDM.EDU From lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr Tue Oct 19 15:02:23 1999 From: lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr (Patrick LESBRE) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:02:23 -0600 Subject: Traduction Message-ID: 1. Someone knows the meaning of this phrase, used by a french writer (Le Clezio) ? QUEN VEL XIMIMATI IN TI TEUCUCUITLA MICHIN 2. Is it possible to find an grammatical equivalence between TZONTECOMA and TZONTECOMAMA ? reduplication ? intensive ? abreviacion ? Gracias por su ayuda.Thanks for your help ___________________ Patrick LESBRE Universit=E9 de Toulouse le Mirail 32 rue la Fonderie 31000 TOULOUSE t=E9l./fax 33(0)5 61 14 26 99 email lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr From takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp Tue Oct 19 15:21:17 1999 From: takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp (Yukitaka Inoue Okubo) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:21:17 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: The book may be this one.... "Conversacion nahuatl-espannol, metodo audiovisual para la ensennanza del nahuatl"(Text by Joaquin Galarza and Carlos Lopez Avila, Drawings by Cecilia Rossell), published from Centro de Investigaciones y Estudios Superiores en Antropologia Social(CIESAS), Mexico, 1987. I doubt if it'd be still available, or will there be any reprent? ------------------------------------------------------------ Mtro. YUKITAKA INOUE OKUBO Universidad de Estudios Extranjeros de Osaka E-mail: takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp ------------------------------------------------------------ > > If I remenber well you can find in Mexico some book more or less similar to > comic, made by Joaquin GALARZA in order to teach nahuatl for children. At > least you will find may drawings, but not Asterix! > =20 > ___________________ > > Patrick LESBRE > Universit=E9 de Toulouse le Mirail > 32 rue la Fonderie > 31000 TOULOUSE > t=E9l./fax 33(0)5 61 14 26 99 > email lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr > > From mdmorris at indiana.edu Tue Oct 19 16:09:51 1999 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:09:51 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: REgarding short stories, Norbert Francis and the Archivo General del Estado de Tlaxcala recently printed a series of pedagogical stories in modern Nahuatl directed toward the speakers in the San Isidro Buen Suceso-San Miguel de Canoa region (toward where the rains have been so damaging). I'm not sure if Tlaxcala has extra copies of these for sale outside of the country, but Norbert at Arizona State University, I am sure could tellyou. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From blnewman at yahoo.com Tue Oct 19 16:24:09 1999 From: blnewman at yahoo.com (Bobbi) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:24:09 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: Mike, How do i subscirbe to Aztlan? Thanks, Bobbi --- mike gaby wrote: > and if you are really interested > in ancient Meso.. > cultures you would do well to subscribe to Aztlan as > well. > > > >From: "Meloche, Jackie" > > >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > >To: Multiple recipients of list > > >Subject: RE: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook > customer?) > >Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:27:15 -0600 > > > >You people are all way ahead of me. I have always > been fascinated by > >Aztecs, but I don't have your expertise. I mostly > study their culture and > >calendar and mysticism. > > How do I get removed from the list? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Craig Berry [mailto:cberry at cinenet.net] > > Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 11:12 AM > > To: Multiple recipients of list > > Subject: Re: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or > kook > >customer?) > > > > On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > > > > > Richard Haly wrote: > > > | I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, > we called > >such people Los > > > | Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said > something like > >"miquic" (a dead > > > | person) implying that he did not belong in > this world. > > > > > > Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he > said it's > >"mimiki" (however > > > you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel > seems long, > >and seems to bear > > > the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the > end, > >perhaps a long i. > > > > Sounds like a distorted plural for "dead people" > -- which > >seems > > appropriate. > > > > -- > > | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net > > --*-- > http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html > > | "They do not preach that their God will > rouse them > > a little before the nuts work loose." - > Kipling > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at > http://www.hotmail.com > ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From Ian.Robertson at asu.edu Tue Oct 19 16:41:11 1999 From: Ian.Robertson at asu.edu (Ian Robertson) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:41:11 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: Hello Mark; I just checked the Arizona State University directory in the hopes of locating a record for Norbert Francis; I failed to find him. I am interested in hearing more about the San Miguel de Canoa stories you mention (and talking to Norbert Francis, if he really is here at ASU!) Could you perhaps provide some contact information? Thanks very much. Ian Robertson -------------------- Ian Robertson Dept. of Anthropology Arizona State University Tempe, AZ, 85287-2402 Ian.Robertson at asu.edu -----Original Message----- From: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]On Behalf Of Mark David Morris Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 9:12 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Publications REgarding short stories, Norbert Francis and the Archivo General del Estado de Tlaxcala recently printed a series of pedagogical stories in modern Nahuatl directed toward the speakers in the San Isidro Buen Suceso-San Miguel de Canoa region (toward where the rains have been so damaging). I'm not sure if Tlaxcala has extra copies of these for sale outside of the country, but Norbert at Arizona State University, I am sure could tellyou. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com Tue Oct 19 16:55:18 1999 From: tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:55:18 -0600 Subject: Publications Message-ID: Last I knew of Norbert is that he is teaching out of Flagstaff, northern arizona..... -----Original Message----- From: Ian Robertson [mailto:Ian.Robertson at asu.edu] Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 9:41 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Publications Hello Mark; I just checked the Arizona State University directory in the hopes of locating a record for Norbert Francis; I failed to find him. I am interested in hearing more about the San Miguel de Canoa stories you mention (and talking to Norbert Francis, if he really is here at ASU!) Could you perhaps provide some contact information? Thanks very much. Ian Robertson -------------------- Ian Robertson Dept. of Anthropology Arizona State University Tempe, AZ, 85287-2402 Ian.Robertson at asu.edu -----Original Message----- From: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]On Behalf Of Mark David Morris Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 9:12 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Publications REgarding short stories, Norbert Francis and the Archivo General del Estado de Tlaxcala recently printed a series of pedagogical stories in modern Nahuatl directed toward the speakers in the San Isidro Buen Suceso-San Miguel de Canoa region (toward where the rains have been so damaging). I'm not sure if Tlaxcala has extra copies of these for sale outside of the country, but Norbert at Arizona State University, I am sure could tellyou. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From mikegaby at hotmail.com Wed Oct 20 06:28:31 1999 From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 00:28:31 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: I belive you send an email to Aztlan at listserv.louisville.edu with no subject, and only the words "subscribe Aztlan" in the message body. If this doesn't work, use you search engine of choice to find Aztlan. I like northernlight.com mikegaby san diego >From: "Heather Hess" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: RE: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) >Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 22:52:23 -0600 > >How can I sign up for Aztlan? I am fairly new on this chat line and have >to >say I agree with you Mike - before I was on a dance chat line that was >extremely active - 40 messages or so per day! there was a lot of >bubble-gum >messages but by reading through and ignoring what I wasn't interested in I >learned extremely valuable info! Heather > > > >From: "mike gaby" > >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > >To: Multiple recipients of list > >Subject: RE: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) > >Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:08:58 -0600 > > > >Jackie, > >Don't unsubscribe yet. I cannot begin to describe how much I have >learned > >just "listening-in". The knowlege collected in the minds on this list is > >absolutely amazing, and if you are really interested in ancient Meso.. > >cultures you would do well to subscribe to Aztlan as well. And feel free > >to > >ask questions on subjects that interest you. Maybe there is someone out > >there just itching to share the same interests. Calender and mysticism, > >eh? > >Mike Gaby > >San Diego > > > > > > >From: "Meloche, Jackie" > > >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > > >To: Multiple recipients of list > > >Subject: RE: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) > > >Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:27:15 -0600 > > > > > >You people are all way ahead of me. I have always been fascinated by > > >Aztecs, but I don't have your expertise. I mostly study their culture >and > > >calendar and mysticism. > > > How do I get removed from the list? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Craig Berry [mailto:cberry at cinenet.net] > > > Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 11:12 AM > > > To: Multiple recipients of list > > > Subject: Re: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook > > >customer?) > > > > > > On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > > > > > > > Richard Haly wrote: > > > > | I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, we called > > >such people Los > > > > | Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said something like > > >"miquic" (a dead > > > > | person) implying that he did not belong in this world. > > > > > > > > Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's > > >"mimiki" (however > > > > you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, > > >and seems to bear > > > > the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, > > >perhaps a long i. > > > > > > Sounds like a distorted plural for "dead people" -- which > > >seems > > > appropriate. > > > > > > -- > > > | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net > > > --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html > > > | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them > > > a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling > > > >______________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From wmiller at uakron.edu Wed Oct 20 11:49:57 1999 From: wmiller at uakron.edu (William Miller) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 05:49:57 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: To subscribe to Aztlan send the e-mail to listserv at listserv.louisville.edu. This address is for commands to subscribe, unsubscribe, etc. Send messages to the list to Aztlan at listserv.louisville.edu. The command to subscribe is (put this line and nothing else in the body of the message, nothing in the subject line): Subscribe Aztlan Your-first-name Your-last-name Bill At 12:31 AM 10/20/99 -0600, mike gaby wrote: >I belive you send an email to Aztlan at listserv.louisville.edu >with no subject, and only the words "subscribe Aztlan" in the message body. >If this doesn't work, use you search engine of choice to find Aztlan. I >like northernlight.com >mikegaby >san diego > From lidia1 at pue1.telmex.net.mx Wed Oct 20 17:55:40 1999 From: lidia1 at pue1.telmex.net.mx (Lidia Gomez) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 11:55:40 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: Richard: I'm sorry my english is not very good but here I go: In the nahuatl area of Mexico we use the word "mimiqui" to describe a childish behaviour. Mimiqui, as someone has already pointed out, is related to the verb to die. This is because toddlers who need attention, sometimes because they are so spoiled or jealous of having a new baby at home for instance, cry a lot in a way like throwing a tra-trum (I read this word once long ago) . They make a deep aspiration for cryin and then suddenly stop breathing, got blue and their eyes go white. Here you can see the relation to the verb to die. The tra-trum is over when you sprink some cold water on the child face. Pediatrician have a technical word for this behaviour: "espasmo del solloso" (I couldn't find the word in english). According to experts in parent counseling the' espasmo del solloso' stops as soon as the child is sure that he or she is loved, and you can help a lot if just ignore the kid when is having the "mimiqui", because the circle "espasmo del solloso"-attention is broken. I am a mother myself and believe me when I say that it does work. We also apply the word "mimiqui" to adults who are always in a URGE for attention, doing silly, childish, very annoying, but harmless things. By harmless I mean that their behaviour is not violent or agresive in any way, just VERY annoying. However, I wouldn't say that a "mimiqui" guy is "disfunctional" in some way. Perhaps for nahuatl and mexican culture there is plenty of room for patterns of behaviour that don't fit with the establishment, as long as they are not harming someone else. Anyway, the word "mimiqui" is not pejorative, well, lets say that it depends on the context: to who, when, how, etc. I thing your employee was refering to this when he called the costumer's behaviour "mimiqui". There are some other words for adult behaviour that have their roots in nahuatl, for instance "chipil" which is applied to a person that is always uneasy, in bad mood, unhappy, nothing seems to please him or her, and extremely attached to his or her mother ( this is a typical pattern of behaviour in the relation machos-mexican wives-mother in law ). Chipil, when applied to a toddler describes the behavior and mood of a child whose mother is expecting a baby or just had a new one. Chipil relates only to the relation with the mother, the need for being always the favorite, to be reasure of mom's love, and the awareness of having to share mom's love and attention with sibils (which is very unpleasent for kids by the way). Any clue about the meaning of chipil in nahuatl? Furthermore, there are other words in nahuatl that refer to childish behaviour, for instance, "miate" when refering to small kids. I don't recall the word in nahuatl but the translation into spanish is "pedo" (sorry!). According to Luis Reyes this means that kids are like "pedos": always there, always annoying but you have to live with them. In nahuatl culture kids are seen in a rather different way, thing in the word "escuicle" (perro) applied to kids, for instance. Luis Reyes always says: "los ninnos son unos cabrones", and there is not a pejorative meaning in the statement, but rather a different way of looking at child behaviour. Luis Reyes has some amazing stories about kids, child behaviour and their relation with adults within the nahua culture. Once he was telling us about the day he was reading to kids in a primary school part of Sahagun' s work, that when the father adresses to his son. The answer of these kids to the nahuatl discourse was just amazing, words that we could analize in the most brilliant academic way, for nahua kids have a concrete significance that can go far beyond of what we could expect from our "academic" understanding of the nahua words. Saludos, Lidia. > >Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's "mimiki" (however >you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, and seems to bear >the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, perhaps a long i. >I wonder if it is pejorative, maybe something along the lines of "idiot" >or "jerk?" But your connecting it with the verb for dying might be a very >good lead. How about the related (transitive) verb mictia, "to kill, >mistreat someone?" Might it denote someone that ought to "drop dead?" > >So far as I can tell, Nahuatl is one of the most amazing languages that I >have ever run into. :) > >| Where is your Nahuatl-speaking employee from? > >Oh, somewheres north by northeast of Mexico City, a hundred (?) miles or >so. Something of a vagabond spirit that has finally chosen to settle >down, and has spent the last five or six years here in Oregon. ___________________________________ Lidia Gomez, Edmundo Gutierrez, Bilha, Adrian 3 Oriente 850-E, C. P. 72810 San Andres Cholula, Puebla MEXICO Tel: 52 (22) 473749 e-mail: lidia1 at pue1.telmex.net.mx From tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com Wed Oct 20 19:07:32 1999 From: tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:07:32 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: I went back to my database and looked for this possibility and I have found an alternate explanation for mimiqui..... >>From our previous emails and especially Joe's work we have the following: mimilihu(i) swell, wallow, column jc-82396 swell, wallow, column jc-07/12/96 morphemes swell, wallow, column jc-08/22/96 morphemes Here the previous word can be transformed in the following manner.... mimiliuh+qui...... This would explain the childish tantrum..... There might be a modern version of this due to 500 years of distortion.... but this I don't know.... Just the facts..... Although there is one contradictory piece of data, also from Joe's work: mimihcatzitzintin finados; muertos (dead people; deceased ones) Santa Ana Tlacotenco jc->11/5/96 mimihqueh difuntos (dead people) Santa Ana Tlacotenco jc->11/5/96 ximocui.... Tezozomoc -----Original Message----- From: lidia1 at pue1.telmex.net.mx [mailto:lidia1 at pue1.telmex.net.mx] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 10:56 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Richard: I'm sorry my english is not very good but here I go: In the nahuatl area of Mexico we use the word "mimiqui" to describe a childish behaviour. Mimiqui, as someone has already pointed out, is related to the verb to die. This is because toddlers who need attention, sometimes because they are so spoiled or jealous of having a new baby at home for instance, cry a lot in a way like throwing a tra-trum (I read this word once long ago) . They make a deep aspiration for cryin and then suddenly stop breathing, got blue and their eyes go white. Here you can see the relation to the verb to die. The tra-trum is over when you sprink some cold water on the child face. Pediatrician have a technical word for this behaviour: "espasmo del solloso" (I couldn't find the word in english). According to experts in parent counseling the' espasmo del solloso' stops as soon as the child is sure that he or she is loved, and you can help a lot if just ignore the kid when is having the "mimiqui", because the circle "espasmo del solloso"-attention is broken. I am a mother myself and believe me when I say that it does work. We also apply the word "mimiqui" to adults who are always in a URGE for attention, doing silly, childish, very annoying, but harmless things. By harmless I mean that their behaviour is not violent or agresive in any way, just VERY annoying. However, I wouldn't say that a "mimiqui" guy is "disfunctional" in some way. Perhaps for nahuatl and mexican culture there is plenty of room for patterns of behaviour that don't fit with the establishment, as long as they are not harming someone else. Anyway, the word "mimiqui" is not pejorative, well, lets say that it depends on the context: to who, when, how, etc. I thing your employee was refering to this when he called the costumer's behaviour "mimiqui". There are some other words for adult behaviour that have their roots in nahuatl, for instance "chipil" which is applied to a person that is always uneasy, in bad mood, unhappy, nothing seems to please him or her, and extremely attached to his or her mother ( this is a typical pattern of behaviour in the relation machos-mexican wives-mother in law ). Chipil, when applied to a toddler describes the behavior and mood of a child whose mother is expecting a baby or just had a new one. Chipil relates only to the relation with the mother, the need for being always the favorite, to be reasure of mom's love, and the awareness of having to share mom's love and attention with sibils (which is very unpleasent for kids by the way). Any clue about the meaning of chipil in nahuatl? Furthermore, there are other words in nahuatl that refer to childish behaviour, for instance, "miate" when refering to small kids. I don't recall the word in nahuatl but the translation into spanish is "pedo" (sorry!). According to Luis Reyes this means that kids are like "pedos": always there, always annoying but you have to live with them. In nahuatl culture kids are seen in a rather different way, thing in the word "escuicle" (perro) applied to kids, for instance. Luis Reyes always says: "los ninnos son unos cabrones", and there is not a pejorative meaning in the statement, but rather a different way of looking at child behaviour. Luis Reyes has some amazing stories about kids, child behaviour and their relation with adults within the nahua culture. Once he was telling us about the day he was reading to kids in a primary school part of Sahagun' s work, that when the father adresses to his son. The answer of these kids to the nahuatl discourse was just amazing, words that we could analize in the most brilliant academic way, for nahua kids have a concrete significance that can go far beyond of what we could expect from our "academic" understanding of the nahua words. Saludos, Lidia. > >Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's "mimiki" (however >you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, and seems to bear >the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, perhaps a long i. >I wonder if it is pejorative, maybe something along the lines of "idiot" >or "jerk?" But your connecting it with the verb for dying might be a very >good lead. How about the related (transitive) verb mictia, "to kill, >mistreat someone?" Might it denote someone that ought to "drop dead?" > >So far as I can tell, Nahuatl is one of the most amazing languages that I >have ever run into. :) > >| Where is your Nahuatl-speaking employee from? > >Oh, somewheres north by northeast of Mexico City, a hundred (?) miles or >so. Something of a vagabond spirit that has finally chosen to settle >down, and has spent the last five or six years here in Oregon. ___________________________________ Lidia Gomez, Edmundo Gutierrez, Bilha, Adrian 3 Oriente 850-E, C. P. 72810 San Andres Cholula, Puebla MEXICO Tel: 52 (22) 473749 e-mail: lidia1 at pue1.telmex.net.mx From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx Wed Oct 20 19:57:38 1999 From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:57:38 -0600 Subject: tlaskamati Message-ID: I ran into the following predicament the other day: "Thank you" in modern Huastecan nahuatl is "tlaskamati", which I usume is related to the classical "tlazocamati". The problem is that classical "tlazocamati" conjugates as "nimitztlazocamati", "I thank you". But in Veracruz today, you can say "titlaskamati", "I thank you", and "intlaskamati", "I thank you-all" ("in" is the second person plural subject). This looks more to me like the classical form, "tinechicnelih", "You have befriended me = I thank you", where the thanked person conjugates the verb. (By the way, I know this isn't actually "conjugation". What is it called in languages like nahuatl?). What is going on here? John Sullivan Doctorado en Historia Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas From dmendell at centurytel.net Thu Oct 21 11:42:39 1999 From: dmendell at centurytel.net (Mendell) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 05:42:39 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: How can I subscribe to the Aztlan List? Susan Mendell ICQ# 18164759 At 07:09 PM 10/18/99 -0600, you wrote: >Jackie, >Don't unsubscribe yet. I cannot begin to describe how much I have learned >just "listening-in". The knowlege collected in the minds on this list is >absolutely amazing, and if you are really interested in ancient Meso.. >cultures you would do well to subscribe to Aztlan as well. And feel free to >ask questions on subjects that interest you. Maybe there is someone out >there just itching to share the same interests. Calender and mysticism, eh? >Mike Gaby >San Diego > > >>From: "Meloche, Jackie" >>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >>To: Multiple recipients of list >>Subject: RE: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) >>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:27:15 -0600 >> >>You people are all way ahead of me. I have always been fascinated by >>Aztecs, but I don't have your expertise. I mostly study their culture and >>calendar and mysticism. >> How do I get removed from the list? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Craig Berry [mailto:cberry at cinenet.net] >> Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 11:12 AM >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Re: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook >>customer?) >> >> On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: >> >> > Richard Haly wrote: >> > | I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, we called >>such people Los >> > | Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said something like >>"miquic" (a dead >> > | person) implying that he did not belong in this world. >> > >> > Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's >>"mimiki" (however >> > you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, >>and seems to bear >> > the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, >>perhaps a long i. >> >> Sounds like a distorted plural for "dead people" -- which >>seems >> appropriate. >> >> -- >> | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net >> --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html >> | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them >> a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From wmiller at uakron.edu Thu Oct 21 14:11:40 1999 From: wmiller at uakron.edu (William Miller) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:11:40 -0600 Subject: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) Message-ID: To subscribe to Aztlan send the e-mail to listserv at listserv.louisville.edu. This address is for commands to subscribe, unsubscribe, etc. Send messages to the list to Aztlan at listserv.louisville.edu. The command to subscribe is (put this line and nothing else in the body of the message, nothing in the subject line): Subscribe Aztlan Your-first-name Your-last-name Bill At 05:45 AM 10/21/99 -0600, Mendell wrote: >How can I subscribe to the Aztlan List? > >Susan Mendell >ICQ# 18164759 > >At 07:09 PM 10/18/99 -0600, you wrote: >>Jackie, >>Don't unsubscribe yet. I cannot begin to describe how much I have learned >>just "listening-in". The knowlege collected in the minds on this list is >>absolutely amazing, and if you are really interested in ancient Meso.. >>cultures you would do well to subscribe to Aztlan as well. And feel free to >>ask questions on subjects that interest you. Maybe there is someone out >>there just itching to share the same interests. Calender and mysticism, eh? >>Mike Gaby >>San Diego >> >> >>>From: "Meloche, Jackie" >>>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >>>To: Multiple recipients of list >>>Subject: RE: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook customer?) >>>Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:27:15 -0600 >>> >>>You people are all way ahead of me. I have always been fascinated by >>>Aztecs, but I don't have your expertise. I mostly study their culture and >>>calendar and mysticism. >>> How do I get removed from the list? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Craig Berry [mailto:cberry at cinenet.net] >>> Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 11:12 AM >>> To: Multiple recipients of list >>> Subject: Re: momik? mimik? (Insane, crazy, or kook >>>customer?) >>> >>> On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Matthew Montchalin wrote: >>> >>> > Richard Haly wrote: >>> > | I dunno. Back when I worked at Chez Panisse, we called >>>such people Los >>> > | Angelinos. But maybe the Nahuatlahto said something like >>>"miquic" (a dead >>> > | person) implying that he did not belong in this world. >>> > >>> > Well, I quizzed him on it again today, and he said it's >>>"mimiki" (however >>> > you spell that in Spanish; the second vowel seems long, >>>and seems to bear >>> > the stress). There is definitely an 'i' on the end, >>>perhaps a long i. >>> >>> Sounds like a distorted plural for "dead people" -- which >>>seems >>> appropriate. >>> >>> -- >>> | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net >>> --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html >>> | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them >>> a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> > > > From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 21 16:14:15 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:14:15 -0600 Subject: AZ: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: Listeros: One of my students is researching the practice of child sacrifice and is stuck on the issue as to where the children came from. As I don't know either (per my speculation in answer to her query below), I thought I see what y'all might have on this. If you respond to the list, I'll forward things. Thank You Richard Haly >Dear Professor Haly, > As we discussed in class, I'm going to write my paper on sacrifices of > children. From what I have read so far, it seems that Aztecs sacrificed > children to the rain god and maize god, which was also associated with rain. > It seemed to me, that they sacrificed children instead of adults because > children were very valuable, and Aztecs needed to please the rain god > because rain was needed for crops, and so for survival. However, I'm > interested to find out what kind of atmosphere was associated with taking or > buying children from their mothers. I can't believe that mothers-even if > they believed in gods-would do it voluntarily. Please let me know if there > is some literature about it , or maybe since you know Aztecs better than me, > maybe you can help me to speculate about it. Thank you > Eva Lowe > Dear Eva: This sounds good. Looking at the festivals in Florentine Codex will certainly give you more context and help you sort out the logic of such practices. Look for equivalences. Things that can stand for one another or replace one another. This leads to the interesting issue as to where the children come from. Something must "replace" them. I agree that parents probably didn't give up children voluntarily tho' their may have been some institutionalized way for all this to happen. They also may have been very ill-behaved children as these could become slaves. Yet this doesn't ring quite true either as it sort of taints their acceptability. It could have been as a "punishment" for the parents in that they might have gone so far in debt, say by gambling, that the children were lost... I don't know a specific source that details all this but you might search for articles in the library database on "child sacrifice" or look at one of the works that deals with Aztec slavery. Richard Haly From tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com Thu Oct 21 16:28:54 1999 From: tezozomoc at ccc.cs.diebold.com (Tezozomoc) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:28:54 -0600 Subject: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: consider the book "eating lanscape" I don't recall the author right now.. It gives a great description and interpretation to four ot the Tlaloc ceremonies... attention is paid to how and why children were selected... Tezozomoc -----Original Message----- From: Richard Haly [mailto:rhaly at ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 9:14 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: AZ: Child-sacrifice Listeros: One of my students is researching the practice of child sacrifice and is stuck on the issue as to where the children came from. As I don't know either (per my speculation in answer to her query below), I thought I see what y'all might have on this. If you respond to the list, I'll forward things. Thank You Richard Haly >Dear Professor Haly, > As we discussed in class, I'm going to write my paper on sacrifices of > children. From what I have read so far, it seems that Aztecs sacrificed > children to the rain god and maize god, which was also associated with rain. > It seemed to me, that they sacrificed children instead of adults because > children were very valuable, and Aztecs needed to please the rain god > because rain was needed for crops, and so for survival. However, I'm > interested to find out what kind of atmosphere was associated with taking or > buying children from their mothers. I can't believe that mothers-even if > they believed in gods-would do it voluntarily. Please let me know if there > is some literature about it , or maybe since you know Aztecs better than me, > maybe you can help me to speculate about it. Thank you > Eva Lowe > Dear Eva: This sounds good. Looking at the festivals in Florentine Codex will certainly give you more context and help you sort out the logic of such practices. Look for equivalences. Things that can stand for one another or replace one another. This leads to the interesting issue as to where the children come from. Something must "replace" them. I agree that parents probably didn't give up children voluntarily tho' their may have been some institutionalized way for all this to happen. They also may have been very ill-behaved children as these could become slaves. Yet this doesn't ring quite true either as it sort of taints their acceptability. It could have been as a "punishment" for the parents in that they might have gone so far in debt, say by gambling, that the children were lost... I don't know a specific source that details all this but you might search for articles in the library database on "child sacrifice" or look at one of the works that deals with Aztec slavery. Richard Haly From heatherhess at hotmail.com Thu Oct 21 16:43:13 1999 From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:43:13 -0600 Subject: AZ: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: Just a note on child sacrifice - lately I was researching Northern Africa - Tanzania to be exact - due to my interest in the Goddess Tanit - as well in Tanzania mass burials of children have been found - just a link to the chain of past civilizations connecting to the future! Heather >From: Richard Haly >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: AZ: Child-sacrifice >Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:14:33 -0600 > >Listeros: > >One of my students is researching the practice of child sacrifice and is >stuck on the issue as to where the children came from. As I don't know >either (per my speculation in answer to her query below), I thought I see >what y'all might have on this. If you respond to the list, I'll forward >things. > >Thank You > >Richard Haly > > > >Dear Professor Haly, > > As we discussed in class, I'm going to write my paper on sacrifices of > > children. From what I have read so far, it seems that Aztecs sacrificed > > children to the rain god and maize god, which was also associated with >rain. > > It seemed to me, that they sacrificed children instead of adults because > > children were very valuable, and Aztecs needed to please the rain god > > because rain was needed for crops, and so for survival. However, I'm > > interested to find out what kind of atmosphere was associated with >taking or > > buying children from their mothers. I can't believe that mothers-even if > > they believed in gods-would do it voluntarily. Please let me know if >there > > is some literature about it , or maybe since you know Aztecs better than >me, > > maybe you can help me to speculate about it. Thank you > > Eva Lowe > > >Dear Eva: > >This sounds good. Looking at the festivals in Florentine Codex will >certainly give you more context and help you sort out the logic of such >practices. Look for equivalences. Things that can stand for one another or >replace one another. This leads to the interesting issue as to where the >children come from. Something must "replace" them. I agree that parents >probably didn't give up children voluntarily tho' their may have been some >institutionalized way for all this to happen. They also may have been very >ill-behaved children as these could become slaves. Yet this doesn't ring >quite true either as it sort of taints their acceptability. It could have >been as a "punishment" for the parents in that they might have gone so far >in debt, say by gambling, that the children were lost... I don't know a >specific source that details all this but you might search for articles in >the library database on "child sacrifice" or look at one of the works that >deals with Aztec slavery. > > >Richard Haly > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Ian.Robertson at asu.edu Thu Oct 21 16:58:43 1999 From: Ian.Robertson at asu.edu (Ian Robertson) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:58:43 -0600 Subject: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: The new book "Eating Landscape" is by Philip Arnold, Eduardo Matos and David Carrasco. An article by Aveni should also be of interest to Richard's student: Aveni, Anthony F. 1991 Mapping the Ritual Landscape: Debt Payment to Tlaloc During the Month of Atlcahualo. In "To Change Place: Aztec Ceremonial Landscapes", edited by D. Carrasco, pp. 58-73. University Press of Colorado, Niwot, Colorado. -------------------- Ian Robertson Dept. of Anthropology Arizona State University Tempe, AZ, 85287-2402 Ian.Robertson at asu.edu -----Original Message----- From: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]On Behalf Of Tezozomoc Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 9:31 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Child-sacrifice consider the book "eating lanscape" I don't recall the author right now.. It gives a great description and interpretation to four ot the Tlaloc ceremonies... attention is paid to how and why children were selected... Tezozomoc -----Original Message----- From: Richard Haly [mailto:rhaly at ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 9:14 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: AZ: Child-sacrifice Listeros: One of my students is researching the practice of child sacrifice and is stuck on the issue as to where the children came from. As I don't know either (per my speculation in answer to her query below), I thought I see what y'all might have on this. If you respond to the list, I'll forward things. Thank You Richard Haly >Dear Professor Haly, > As we discussed in class, I'm going to write my paper on sacrifices of > children. From what I have read so far, it seems that Aztecs sacrificed > children to the rain god and maize god, which was also associated with rain. > It seemed to me, that they sacrificed children instead of adults because > children were very valuable, and Aztecs needed to please the rain god > because rain was needed for crops, and so for survival. However, I'm > interested to find out what kind of atmosphere was associated with taking or > buying children from their mothers. I can't believe that mothers-even if > they believed in gods-would do it voluntarily. Please let me know if there > is some literature about it , or maybe since you know Aztecs better than me, > maybe you can help me to speculate about it. Thank you > Eva Lowe > Dear Eva: This sounds good. Looking at the festivals in Florentine Codex will certainly give you more context and help you sort out the logic of such practices. Look for equivalences. Things that can stand for one another or replace one another. This leads to the interesting issue as to where the children come from. Something must "replace" them. I agree that parents probably didn't give up children voluntarily tho' their may have been some institutionalized way for all this to happen. They also may have been very ill-behaved children as these could become slaves. Yet this doesn't ring quite true either as it sort of taints their acceptability. It could have been as a "punishment" for the parents in that they might have gone so far in debt, say by gambling, that the children were lost... I don't know a specific source that details all this but you might search for articles in the library database on "child sacrifice" or look at one of the works that deals with Aztec slavery. Richard Haly From ECOLING at aol.com Thu Oct 21 17:01:33 1999 From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:01:33 -0600 Subject: AZ: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: Richard Haly: You may know that human sacrifice has been discussed extensively on this and other lists, and keeps coming up again and again. It did occur. But it is usually sensationalized in our cultures, usually as a way of making money in the media, or of making ourselves feel how "superior" we are, of course neglecting the fact that in our own cultures it has occurred too, and if one uses a suitably general definition, not circularly designed to apply only to certain "manners" of sacrifice, still does (i.e. for symbolic or ritual value, not for eating because of nutritional needs). That means it is distorted, and its role in the society overemphasized. That is much of what "sensationalized" means. I would always discourage any relative newcomer, and any child, from dealing with this issue at all, until they have GREAT maturity, stability, presence of mind, ability to detect hidden assumptions and motivations behind how things are presented, and behind what is chosen to be presented and what is chosen to be omitted, etc. etc. In short, enormous sophistication. Otherwise, it ends up doing harm both to the modern people descended from the ancient people studied, and to the psyche of the student looking at the concept. Sincerely yours, Lloyd Anderson From heatherhess at hotmail.com Thu Oct 21 21:07:52 1999 From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:07:52 -0600 Subject: AZ: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: I agree whole heartedly! Heather >From: ECOLING at aol.com >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: AZ: Child-sacrifice >Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:01:46 -0600 > >Richard Haly: > >You may know that human sacrifice has been discussed extensively >on this and other lists, and keeps coming up again and again. > >It did occur. > >But it is usually sensationalized in our cultures, >usually as a way of making money in the media, >or of making ourselves feel how "superior" we are, >of course neglecting the fact that in our own cultures >it has occurred too, and if one uses a suitably general >definition, not circularly designed to apply only to certain >"manners" of sacrifice, still does >(i.e. for symbolic or ritual value, >not for eating because of nutritional needs). > >That means it is distorted, and its role in the society >overemphasized. >That is much of what "sensationalized" means. > >I would always discourage any relative newcomer, >and any child, from dealing with this issue at all, >until they have GREAT maturity, >stability, presence of mind, ability to detect hidden assumptions >and motivations behind how things are presented, >and behind what is chosen to be presented >and what is chosen to be omitted, etc. etc. > >In short, enormous sophistication. > >Otherwise, it ends up doing harm both to the modern >people descended from the ancient people studied, >and to the psyche of the student looking at the concept. > >Sincerely yours, >Lloyd Anderson > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jcarlson at deans.umd.edu Thu Oct 21 22:41:04 1999 From: jcarlson at deans.umd.edu (John B. Carlson) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:41:04 -0600 Subject: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: Ian robertson replied: The new book "Eating Landscape" is by Philip Arnold, Eduardo Matos and David Carrasco. An article by Aveni should also be of interest to Richard's student: Aveni, Anthony F. 1991 Mapping the Ritual Landscape: Debt Payment to Tlaloc During the Month of Atlcahualo. In "To Change Place: Aztec Ceremonial Landscapes", edited by D. Carrasco, pp. 58-73. University Press of Colorado, Niwot, Colorado. -------------------- Ian Robertson ************** Sorry Ian, There is a misconception in your citation. Eating Landscape: Aztec and European Occupation of Tlalocan is by Philip P. Arnold only. University Press of colorado, Niwot, 1999 You are think of a different book, probably To Change Place, which is edited by David Carrasco, only. John Carlson From Ian.Robertson at asu.edu Thu Oct 21 23:07:43 1999 From: Ian.Robertson at asu.edu (Ian Robertson) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:07:43 -0600 Subject: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: John, thanks for correcting me as to the authorship of "Eating Landscape"; I noted my error shortly after my last post, having accepted uncritically information provided by that crucial source of information on new books, Amazon.com. Philip Arnold is indeed the sole author, as I found when attempting to locate the book at the university library. Anyway, it's a book I look forward to reading! Ian -------------------- Ian Robertson Dept. of Anthropology Arizona State University Tempe, AZ, 85287-2402 Ian.Robertson at asu.edu -----Original Message----- From: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]On Behalf Of John B. Carlson Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 3:44 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: Child-sacrifice Ian robertson replied: The new book "Eating Landscape" is by Philip Arnold, Eduardo Matos and David Carrasco. An article by Aveni should also be of interest to Richard's student: Aveni, Anthony F. 1991 Mapping the Ritual Landscape: Debt Payment to Tlaloc During the Month of Atlcahualo. In "To Change Place: Aztec Ceremonial Landscapes", edited by D. Carrasco, pp. 58-73. University Press of Colorado, Niwot, Colorado. -------------------- Ian Robertson ************** Sorry Ian, There is a misconception in your citation. Eating Landscape: Aztec and European Occupation of Tlalocan is by Philip P. Arnold only. University Press of colorado, Niwot, 1999 You are think of a different book, probably To Change Place, which is edited by David Carrasco, only. John Carlson From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 22 00:18:32 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:18:32 -0600 Subject: AZ: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: > I would always discourage any relative newcomer, > and any child, from dealing with this issue at all, > until they have GREAT maturity, > stability, presence of mind, ability to detect hidden assumptions > and motivations behind how things are presented, > and behind what is chosen to be presented > and what is chosen to be omitted, etc. etc. > > In short, enormous sophistication. > > Otherwise, it ends up doing harm both to the modern > people descended from the ancient people studied, > and to the psyche of the student looking at the concept. As it happens my course is an Upper-Division critical thinking course and it is precisely this sort of thing that I aim to teach. If anyone wd like the syllabus before making their own assumptions, I'll gladly send one. As for modern people offended by this I believe that is mostly non-Nahuas. Those Nahuas with whom I have spoken with for 25 years (in Nahuatl) never seemed particularly PC about it. Nor am I. If it happened, it can/oughta be discussed. The whole point is HOW? How can one make sense of this cultural phenomenon? I have my ideas and evidence for my approach which I will not necessarily bring up here given what usually happens when this topic is broached. Hint: it was economic. As far as cultural relativism goes, i.e. that any cultural practice is legitimate within its own culture. That is simply our own cultural assumption and it does not work when faced with a less tolerant culture. Try drinking a beer on a streetcorner in Riyadh. Moreover, the "wisdom" of cultural relativity is open to question as I can't condone female circumcision, human sacrifice, or a certain war in VietNam just because it's what culture does. Culture, being human, has every reason to be messed up. Gregory Bateson's discussions of schismogenesis are apt here. Sorry for all this, but these kinds of discussions rub me the wrong way more than whether Anasazi were cannibals, my Irish ancestors were slaveholders (or slaves). Best, Richard Haly From ECOLING at aol.com Fri Oct 22 01:58:11 1999 From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:58:11 -0600 Subject: ? AGAIN Child Sacrifice Message-ID: [The original message was posted on the Nahua-l list, and then later on the AZTLAN list. This is the same reply, posted also to each list. Mr. Haly has responded that his course is an upper-division course intended to teach critical thinking. That removes one of the most serious problems. But Mr. Haly's response mis-estimates my reasons, which are NOT political correctness, NOT an aversion to the topic, and NOT based on cultural relativism They are simply based on observation of what happens when this issue is sensationalized, as it almost always is in the media. The questions Mr. Haly asked have been asked before on several lists, and there are many files which can be searched there. We should not have to go through this yet again. The way in which the qustion was initially posed was very open-ended. It did not suggest anything about a more sophisticated critical-thinking approach to this. If Mr. Haly does have a new approach which uses more critical thinking and is less vulnerable to being sensationalized, it would be a great boon to all of us to have it available. I have my doubts, based simply on the extreme power of the sensationalizing enterprise, but that is simply a bad taste left over from past experience. Someone MAY come up with a new way of handling this issue. There are indeed many peoples who believe the media treatment of their ancient ancestors is just one more way of denying them respect as normal human beings, that it damages their interests.] Lloyd Anderson Ecological Linguistics From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Fri Oct 22 03:34:14 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:34:14 -0600 Subject: AZ: Child-sacrifice Message-ID: Richard Haly wrote: | As for modern people offended by this I believe that is mostly non-Nahuas. It invariably occurs among those that have not been exposed to the concept of the 'deodandum' --- heck, a word that isn't even in most English dictionaries, but at least it is in the Oxford English Dictionary. Now, stripped of its legalistic trappings (as a token of civil forfeiture), the 'deodandum' was a representation of the extent of just how much one rally loves and appreciates the thing being given up, and how much one also appreciates the thing asked for. (Gods do not indulge them that offer trivialities for trivialities; great things demand great prices.) At least among the Ancient Romans they had a formulaic saying that went with the 'deodandum' --- "do't des" (do ut des) --- "I give that thou givest." BTW, there was recently a great show on the Discovery Channel about the sacrifices of (sometimes (?) stillborn) babies in Carthage, and cemetaries dedicated just to these kinds of offerings... Anyway, I am just starting to learn Nahuatl; forgive me for posting this to the mailing list --- it would be a lot easier for all concerned if there were a newsgroup in Usenet for questions like this, so advanced people can skip past it... Do or did they have a word for "deodandum?" Would it be connected with the verb mani (to give or lay out, Latin licet pandi) and teotl (god or deity, Latin deus), perhaps with an adverb of location like nican (here, Latin hic) joining in somehow? From cristi at ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 24 18:05:29 1999 From: cristi at ix.netcom.com (cristi at ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 12:05:29 -0600 Subject: ? AGAIN Child Sacrifice Message-ID: Some interesting points have been made regarding the topic of this student's research, and I have to say I agree with all of them, to some degree. As someone who wants to write a fictional account set during those times, I would be *fascinated* to learn anything that can be found about exactly how the sacrifice of children affected the common people, especially their parents, and exactly where those children came from. It would help me to write realistically. But speaking on the issue in general, minus my own special interests, I have to wonder why the focus is always on the Azteca. After all, the practice has existed all over the world at different points in time. The Meditteranean/Near East cultures, the very people who originated Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, all practiced child sacrifice (and sacrifice of other humans as well) assiduously at different points in their history--points that seem to correlate well with the Aztecans during their own sacrificial phase. In view of this, the continual focus on Aztecan sacrifice, when there are so many other things to learn, seems pretty Cortez-ian. Cristi From Yaoxochitl at aol.com Sun Oct 24 20:57:56 1999 From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 14:57:56 -0600 Subject: ? AGAIN Child Sacrifice Message-ID: I agree with u Cristi; this singular image perpetrated by people gives the Mexica this repulsive reputation. The plain truth is, that all cultures practiced human sacrifice. It seems the Spaniards and Western civilization want to grossly exaggerate the frequency of human sacrifice in the "New World" to justify their own cruel and brutal attrocities towards Indigenous cultures. Sincerely, Ahuitzotl From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Sun Oct 24 21:57:40 1999 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 15:57:40 -0600 Subject: Numbers - Counting Message-ID: Referring to Thelma Sullivan's Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar, pages 150 and following, an account of the Nahuatl numeral system is given. How is this different from Modern Nahuatl? For instance, on pages 153 and 154 Sullivan indicates that the numerals can be combined with exactly 4 nouns, using them as suffixes, namely: tetl "stone," for round things, pantli "flag," for things that can be lined up, tlamantli "thing," for people or objects, and olotl "corncob," for things that can be rolled. Has Modern Nahuatl dropped these or changed them? What are the differences between Classical and Modern Nahuatl with regard to their way of counting things? From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Oct 25 02:35:49 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:35:49 -0600 Subject: still a few questions (fwd) Message-ID: After a four day trip, I found that my message of 20 Oct had been in escrow with repeated attempts to deliver without success, so I am forwarding it with optimism. Joe ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:54:57 -0500 (EST) From: "R. Joe Campbell" To: Leonel Hermida Cc: nahuat-list Subject: Re: still a few questions Tlen tai, Leonel, I put *** where I have a comment... > quiza = come out, emerge > quix-tia (some phonetic peculiarity here)= cause to be(come) *** On the semantics of quixtia, I like to think of it as being an event rather than a being. quixtia is commonly used to talk about extraction -- to take something out of the house, your pocket, etc. --Even to talk about taking someone out of office or one's self out of a bad situation (e.g., battle)... oninotzinquixtih -- I backed out. The z to x change is called palatalization (z and t are dentals and x and ch are their respective palatals). Somebody else can explain this better than I can, but basically a now relatively opaque historical process palatalized some stems in their causative and benefactive (some people call it applicative) forms, so we learn their alternative forms by memory, not as the result of some regular phonological process. > I have two more questions: is it safe to put mana = offer? (I could not > find it in my basic morpheme list) ( I know that mictia= kill is a causative > of miqui=die). *** The basic morpheme is mani; it forms its causative by adding the causative -a. I believe it best to think that there are 2 causative -a's: one that absorbs the preceding vowel and the other that does not. (in inverse order in the following examples) pozoni it boils nicpozonia i cause it to boil, i boil it nicalaqui i enter niccalaquia i insert it, i cause it to go in mani it lies extended (like water in a puddle) quimana he lays it down (causes it to lie flat) The causative mana is then generalized to mean put and is frequently used to mean place on the alter as an offering. temi it fills up (e.g. a jug) tictema you fill it, you cause it to fill > Does tla- mean 'something' and is it direct object to mana > and mictia? Shall one conclude that the direct object must be expressed > in the (transitive) verbal 'complex' even if this is in a 'dummy' way > (tla-), so to speak? *** Yes, Nahuatl *requires* (almost always) the expression of objects on transitive verbs, so if there is no *specific* object, we use the non-specific ones: nic-cua in nacatl I eat (the) meat (c is a redundant reference to nacatl ni-tla-cua I eat ni-c-mictia noyaouh I kill my enemy (just an imaginary example) ni-te-mictia I kill, I kill somebody > Or, putting it in another way, has a transitive verb to be made to 'agree' > both with its subject (prefix 'zero' in this case) and with its direct > object (prefix tla- here)? *** Well put. > One more thing while I have your attention. It will be found perhaps too > trivial, but what are the functions of the particle 'in' which is ubiquitous > everywhere? *** This one is one I hope to see someone else's answer on first.... Best regards, Joe From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Oct 25 02:38:47 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:38:47 -0600 Subject: still a few questions (fwd) Message-ID: Same as preceding message........ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 11:28:58 -0500 (EST) From: "R. Joe Campbell" To: Leonel Hermida Cc: nahuat-list Subject: Re: still a few questions Leonel, Just a follow-up about causatives: this matching exercise combines what one knows, what one can guess, and leaves you with the residue to wonder about. *But* all of the answers are at the bottom, so you are left with no pain. Of course, you would spoil the fun for yourself if you peeked at the answers too early. I'm off today for a 3-4 day visit in Illinois and unfortunately I don't have access to e-mail there. Timottazqueh, Joe Causative Verbs exercise 01 1. caquia 1. he puts it 2. cololoa 2. it forms knots 3. mictilo 3. it is mixed 4. mixtia 4. it is sown 5. moneloa 5. he is killed 6. mopixoa 6. he loosens it 7. quimana 7. he piles it up 8. quitoma 8. he puts it in Causative Verbs exercise 02 1. matilia 1. abstain from it! 2. molinia 2. he pays something 3. moxeloa 3. he saddens someone 4. nitlate:nqui:xtia 4. it is split, divided 5. te:tlao:coltia 5. it melts 6. tlacoto:na 6. it moves 7. tlaxtla:hua 7. I pronounce something 8. xicmoca:hualti 8. he cuts something Causative Verbs exercise 03 1. cahxitia 1. he pours something out 2. catlilia 2. he twists something 3. coni:tia 3. it provides him drink 4. monextia 4. he appears (he causes himself to appear) 5. quizaloa 5. he glues it 6. tetlatia 6. he has her drink it 7. tlachaya:hua 7. he makes someone hide 8. tlacoloa 8. he reaches it Causative Verbs exercise 04 1. conihtlacoah 1. I tame it, I domesticate it 2. hualxinachpixoah 2. he angers s.o. 3. mopilhuahtia 3. he notifies s.o. of s.t. 4. nictlacahcihuitia 4. they harm it 5. nimitzpahtia 5. they let him carry it on his back 6. quima:ma:ltiah 6. they scatter seeds 7. te:cuala:niltia 7. it begets its young 8. te:tlamachi:tia 8. I cure you Causative Verbs exercise 05 1. ca:pitzaltiz 1. it gushes up, it spurts 2. compehualti 2. I embellish something 3. mocacalaquiah 3. he caused it to begin (began it) 4. motlahpaloa 4. he dares 5. nitlacualnextia 5. it will give him diarrhea 6. onmopiyazoa 6. they give her a necklace 7. quicozcatiah 7. they successively enter 8. tontlecahuiayah 8. they took him up  Causative Verbs exercise 06 1. conhuehcatiliah 1. it makes one weep 2. nicnamictia 2. I join it 3. quihui:caltiah 3. he causes s.o. to laugh 4. quintlacatiliah 4. he lifts it 5. quitlehco:ltia 5. it makes one salivate 6. te:cho:ctia 6. they defer it, they delay it 7. te:huezcatia 7. they give them human form 8. teiztlacmemeyaltia 8. they make him take it with him Causative Verbs exercise 07 1. nictlamela:hualtia 1. I injure someone with flowers 2. niquihnecuiltia 2. he makes something bitter 3. niquinnezo:ma:ltia 3. I cause him to smell it 4. nitexochimictia 4. I make it straight 5. quichichilia 5. I make them hate each other 6. quintlacualtia 6. he gives s.o. faith in s.t. 7. quitenectia 7. he makes it desirable to others 8. te:tlaneltoquitia 8. he provides them food Causative Verbs exercise 08 1. o:quimahuiztiliayah 1. he carries someone across the river 2. o:quimihxitiaya 2. he lowers s.t.; he digests 3. o:titlahuetzquitih 3. he makes someone arrive 4. quite:mi:tia 4. he woke them 5. te:ehcahuia 5. one who delivers babies 6. te:panahuia 6. they honored him 7. temi:xihuitiani 7. you caused laughter 8. tlatemohuia 8. he fills it Causative Verbs exercise 09 1. mocaxania 1. he builds a house for him 2. mochantia 2. he displays it, he shows it 3. moma:qui:xtiqueh 3. he dwells 4. mozcaltia 4. he has a relapse 5. o:quiqui:xtih 5. he is brought up, matured, educated 6. quicaltia 6. he makes someone sleep 7. quinextia 7. he removed it 8. te:cochi:tia 8. they escaped Causative Verbs exercise 10 1. mocoxonia 1. I make something chili-red 2. mocuicuicatia 2. he adds it, he mixes it in 3. nitlachichiloa 3. he causes s.t. to be fragrant 4. quicehuia 4. he kills him 5. quimaquia 5. he puts it on 6. quimictia 6. he sings 7. quina:mictia 7. it is pulverized, powdered 8. tlaahhuialia 8. it relieves it, it cools it  Causative Verbs exercise 11 1. cahualtilozqueh 1. he fulfills it; he testifies it 2. chololtiloz 2. he will be pursued 3. momauhtih 3. injury to the tongue 4. nenenepilcualtiliztli 4. she became frightened 5. quichipinia 5. they enlarge it 6. quihue:iliah 6. he drips it 7. quimicximimictia 7. he paralyzes their feet 8. quineltilia 8. they will be weaned Causative Verbs exercise 12 1. namechtlahpaloa 1. I feed it grains of maize 2. nictlaolcualtia 2. he causes s.t. to become hard 3. quicaquitia 3. I animate y'all 4. quinxotlaltiz 4. he causes s.o. to give s.t. to s.o. 5. quiyo:litiz 5. he informs him of it 6. te:te:tlamaqui:ltia 6. he will cause them to sprout 7. teihzotlaltia 7. he will put life into it 8. tlatetilia 8. it makes people vomit Causative Verbs exercise 13 1. anquipoloah 1. he causes s.t. to become sour 2. cuauhxeloa 2. he has them drink 3. mohuacaloa 3. he splits wood 4. moyahualoah 4. it is hollowed 5. quima:tlitia 5. they are arranged in a circle 6. quixhualtia 6. you dishonor yourself 7. timihzoloa 7. he causes it to sprout 8. tlaxocolia 8. y'all destroy it Causative Verbs exercise 14 1. caa:huiltiz 1. he kills dogs 2. conpaloltia 2. it rots it 3. itzcuinmictia 3. they trouble him 4. mopehualtia 4. he will amuse him 5. nea:huiltilo 5. she makes him taste it 6. netlamamaltilo 6. there is merry-making 7. quicocomoniah 7. there was carrying on their backs 8. quipalanaltia 8. they fight each other Causative Verbs exercise 15 1. compachoah 1. he bred dogs 2. contilinia 2. it is rolled 3. mochalaniah 3. they press it 4. momimiloa 4. I drill it, I perforate it 5. motzoyonia 5. he boils it 6. niccoyonia 6. he pulls it, draws on it 7. oitzcuinnemiti 7. it is cooked 8. quipozonia 8. they contend  Causative Verbs exercise 16 1. chichinolo 1. he is consumed by fire 2. conchololtiah 2. he is given the name 3. mitztololtizqueh 3. he makes someone weep 4. motocayotia 4. it blossoms 5. moxochyotia 5. they make it bloom 6. o:mozaloh 6. they pass over it 7. quicueponaltiah 7. they will make you swallow it 8. te:cho:qui:tia 8. it was mended, it was stuck together Causative Verbs exercise 17 1. a:qui:xtia 1. he causes s.o. to laugh 2. monamictia 2. he makes people laugh 3. moqui:xtia 3. it is extracted 4. motleyotia 4. I teach it (e.g., animal) 5. nicmachtia 5. he gets married 6. te:ahxitia 6. he is made famous 7. te:huezquitia 7. he presses out water 8. tehuetzquitia 8. he takes s.o., he makes s.o. arrive Causative Verbs exercise 18 1. momeyaltiah 1. I show it to you, I make you see it 2. moyolihtlacoa 2. he cleanses it, he makes it good 3. necochitiloh 3. he is offended 4. nimitzittitia 4. they are given human form 5. quica:hualtiayah 5. they are put to sleep 6. quicualtilia 6. they caused him to abandon it 7. quitlahuantia 7. they produce semen 8. tetlacatililoh 8. it makes him drunk Causative Verbs exercise 19 1. contlecuitiah 1. he honors himself 2. mocotzoyotia 2. he sprinkles it 3. momahuiztilia 3. I shame him 4. nicpinauhtia 4. he causes s.o. to close s.t. 5. quimpaquiltia 5. he dresses s.o. in something 6. quitzetzeloa 6. he gives them contentment 7. te:tlaque:miltia 7. it forms a resin 8. te:tlatzacui:ltia 8. they set it on fire  .R:E .S:6 .X:7 .XT:1 .XB:1 .L:66 Causative Verbs exercise key 1 1 mictilo he is killed 2 quitoma he loosens it 3 cololoa he piles it up 4 caquia he put it in 5 quimana he puts it 6 mixtia it forms knots 7 moneloa it is mixed 8 mopixoa it is sown Causative Verbs exercise key 2 1 moxeloa it is split, divided 2 matilia it melts 3 molinia it moves 4 te:tlao:coltia he saddens someone 5 tlaxtla:hua he pays something 6 xicmoca:hualti abstain from it! 7 tlacoto:na he cuts something 8 nitlate:nqui:xtia I pronounce something Causative Verbs exercise key 3 1 monextia he appears (he causes himself to appear) 2 quizaloa he glues it 3 coni:tia he has her drink it 4 tetlatia he makes someone hide 5 cahxitia he reaches it 6 tlacoloa he twists something 7 catlilia it provides him drink 8 tlachaya:hua he pours something out Causative Verbs exercise key 4 1 quima:ma:ltiah they let him carry it on his back 2 te:cuala:niltia he angers s.o. 3 te:tlamachi:tia he notifies s.o. of s.t. 4 hualxinachpixoah they scatter seeds 5 conihtlacoah they harm it 6 nictlacahcihuitia I tame it, I domesticate it 7 mopilhuahtia it begets its young 8 nimitzpahtia I cure you Causative Verbs exercise key 5 1 tontlecahuiayah they took him up 2 nitlacualnextia I embellish something 3 motlahpaloa he dares 4 compehualti he caused it to begin (began it) 5 ca:pitzaltiz it will give him diarrhea 6 mocacalaquiah they successively enter 7 quicozcatiah they give her a necklace 8 onmopiyazoa it gushes up, it spurts  Causative Verbs exercise key 6 1 quihui:caltiah they make him take it with him 2 te:huezcatia he causes s.o. to laugh 3 conhuehcatiliah they defer it, they delay it 4 quintlacatiliah they give them human form 5 teiztlacmemeyaltia it makes one salivate 6 quitlehco:ltia he lifts it 7 te:cho:ctia it makes one weep 8 nicnamictia I join it Causative Verbs exercise key 7 1 quitenectia he makes it desirable to others 2 quintlacualtia he provides them food 3 niquihnecuiltia I cause him to smell it 4 nictlamela:hualtia I make it straight 5 te:tlaneltoquitia he gives s.o. faith in s.t. 6 niquinnezo:ma:ltia I make them hate each other 7 quichichilia he makes something bitter 8 nitexochimictia I injure someone with flowers Causative Verbs exercise key 8 1 o:titlahuetzquitih you caused laughter 2 te:panahuia he carries someone across the river 3 tlatemohuia he lowers s.t.; he digests 4 te:ehcahuia he makes someone arrive 5 temi:xihuitiani one who delivers babies 6 o:quimahuiztiliayah they honored him 7 o:quimihxitiaya he woke them 8 quite:mi:tia he fills it Causative Verbs exercise key 9 1 te:cochi:tia he makes someone sleep 2 o:quiqui:xtih he removed it 3 moma:qui:xtiqueh they escaped 4 quicaltia he builds a house for him 5 quinextia he displays it, he shows it 6 mochantia he dwells 7 mocaxania he has a relapse 8 mozcaltia he is brought up, matured, educated Causative Verbs exercise key 10 1 quimictia he kills him 2 quimaquia he puts it on 3 mocoxonia it is pulverized, powdered 4 quicehuia it relieves it, it cools it 5 tlaahhuialia he causes s.t. to be fragrant 6 mocuicuicatia he sings 7 nitlachichiloa I make something chili-red 8 quina:mictia he adds it, he mixes it in  Causative Verbs exercise key 11 1 momauhtih she became frightened 2 nenenepilcualtiliztli injury to the tongue 3 quineltilia he fulfills it; he testifies it 4 quihue:iliah they enlarge it 5 chololtiloz he will be pursued 6 cahualtilozqueh they will be weaned 7 quimicximimictia he paralyzes their feet 8 quichipinia he drips it Causative Verbs exercise key 12 1 quicaquitia he informs him of it 2 quiyo:litiz he will put life into it 3 namechtlahpaloa I animate y'all 4 teihzotlaltia it makes people vomit 5 quinxotlaltiz he will cause them to sprout 6 te:te:tlamaqui:ltia he causes s.o. to give s.t. to s.o. 7 nictlaolcualtia I feed it grains of maize 8 tlatetilia he causes s.t. to become hard Causative Verbs exercise key 13 1 tlaxocolia he causes s.t. to become sour 2 quima:tlitia he has them drink 3 cuauhxeloa he splits wood 4 mohuacaloa it is hollowed 5 timihzoloa you dishonor yourself 6 moyahualoah they are arranged in a circle 7 anquipoloah y'all destroy it 8 quixhualtia he causes it to sprout Causative Verbs exercise key 14 1 conpaloltia she makes him taste it 2 mopehualtia they fight each other 3 nea:huiltilo there is merry-making 4 caa:huiltiz he will amuse him 5 netlamamaltilo there was carrying on their backs 6 itzcuinmictia he kills dogs 7 quicocomoniah they trouble him 8 quipalanaltia it rots it Causative Verbs exercise key 15 1 niccoyonia I drill it, I perforate it 2 quipozonia he boils it 3 contilinia he pulls it, draws on it 4 motzoyonia it is cooked 5 mochalaniah they contend 6 oitzcuinnemiti he bred dogs 7 momimiloa it is rolled 8 compachoah they press it  Causative Verbs exercise key 16 1 o:mozaloh it was mended, it was stuck together 2 chichinolo he is consumed by fire 3 conchololtiah they pass over it 4 mitztololtizqueh they will make you swallow it 5 quicueponaltiah they make it bloom 6 motocayotia he is given the name 7 moxochyotia it blossoms 8 te:cho:qui:tia he makes someone weep Causative Verbs exercise key 17 1 te:huezquitia he causes s.o. to laugh 2 tehuetzquitia he makes people laugh 3 nicmachtia I teach it (e.g., animal) 4 monamictia he gets married 5 motleyotia he is made famous 6 a:qui:xtia he presses out water 7 te:ahxitia he takes s.o., he makes s.o. arrive 8 moqui:xtia it is extracted Causative Verbs exercise key 18 1 momeyaltiah they produce semen 2 quicualtilia he cleanses it, he makes it good 3 tetlacatililoh they are given human form 4 necochitiloh they are put to sleep 5 moyolihtlacoa he is offended 6 nimitzittitia I show it to you, I make you see it 7 quica:hualtiayah they caused him to abandon it 8 quitlahuantia it makes him drunk Causative Verbs exercise key 19 1 te:tlaque:miltia he dresses s.o. in something 2 nicpinauhtia I shame him 3 quimpaquiltia he gives them contentment 4 contlecuitiah they set it on fire 5 mocotzoyotia it forms a resin 6 te:tlatzacui:ltia he causes s.o. to close s.t. 7 quitzetzeloa he sprinkles it 8 momahuiztilia he honors himself From leonelhermida at netc.pt Wed Oct 27 14:31:08 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:31:08 -0600 Subject: Fw: just a quick question Message-ID: I'm forwarding here another message of mine that I thing was NOT delivered at all. Sorry for the inconvenience. Leonel -----Original Message----- From: Leonel Hermida To: nahuat-list Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 7:57 PM Subject: just a quick question >Hi, > >I just happen to come across the following: > >(...) oncan quicenquixtiaya in tlatlaloque: >auh in ihcuac oquicenquixtique, niman oncan quinmictiaya: >auh in ihcuac in oquimonmictique, niman (...) >( there they gathered them together [the sacrificial victims >called] tlalocs: and when they had gathered them together, >then they slew them there: and when they had slain them, >then etc.) > >Would someone be kind enough to explain to me why is it >found twice qui- instead of the expected quin-/quim- , >namely 'quicenquixtiaya' (they gathered them together) and >'oquicenquixtique' (they had gathered them together)? After all >"tlatlaloque" is plural isn't it? Are those mere 'typos' >or is there an explanation for them that I can't see? And if so, >why then the "correct" quinmictiaya and oquimonmictique? > >Tlazocamati. > >Leonel > > > > > > > > > > From leonelhermida at netc.pt Wed Oct 27 14:34:51 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:34:51 -0600 Subject: possessive and qualifying relashionship in Nahuatl Message-ID: Hi all, Please allow me to ask here a question I'm not yet able to decide due to my insufficient knowledge of the Nahuatl language. As far as I know there are two kinds of 'genitive relationship' between nouns, namely what I shall call the 'possessive relationship' and the 'qualifying relationship': the first appearing in 'the Director's room' or in 'the door of my house', the second in 'guest-room' or 'house-door'. In English the first can be expressed by the preposition 'of' or by the 'possessive case', the second by making a compound word where the elements are more or less glued together according to use and sense. Now, I have till now never heard in Nahuatl about any preposition (or postposition) meaning 'of', neither have I found trace of a genitive case in the language. I have been finding instead an original means of expressing the former, namely by putting in sequence the nouns involved and using a possessive prefix to refer back to the possessing noun, as if one said "the Director his-room" or "my-house its-door"; and the latter by making invariably a compound word just as in English or German but unlike Spanish or French where one founds a preposition for both constructions. My question is: how are the two constructions made in Nahuatl? Do the aforementioned mechanisms apply always, or are there other means (I have not been aware of, thus far) that can be made use of? Some examples of Nahuatl usage should make these matter clear as for example the translation of the following: 1. her skirt is stars 2. skirt of stars (= star-skirt) 3. her skirt of stars (= her star-skirt) 4. the stars of her skirt 5. Citlalicue 6. Citlalinicue 7. Citlalli Icue 8. Chalchihuitlicue 9. Chalchiuhtlicue 10. Chalchiuhcueye Thanks in advance. Leonel From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 27 18:26:52 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:26:52 -0600 Subject: AZ: (PG13) San Juan Teperico Message-ID: Greetings All: Note my little PG13 rating that I've given this topic so that those offended by the study of certain cultural practices (which is, by the way, different from performing the cultural practices themselves) can brace themselves with whatever intellectual rigor (rigor mortis?) they prefer. Or as Samuel Beckett has it "Who knows what the ostrich sees with his head in the sand?" So: In the Sierra Norte de Puebla there is an image in a church of San Juan Teperico. This particular San Juan whose "last name" is appropriately a hybrid of Nahuatl (tepetl/mountain) and Spanish (rico/rich) is the focus of prayers for money. San Juan Teperico lives in the lower world - Talocan - and that's about all I know. I should find out when his fiesta is celebrated. That would be telling... Does anyone on the list know more? Inemilis? His lifestory? or cognate images in other places/cultures? Thanks, Richard Haly From cberry at cinenet.net Wed Oct 27 18:41:52 1999 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:41:52 -0600 Subject: AZ: (PG13) San Juan Teperico Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Richard Haly wrote: > So: In the Sierra Norte de Puebla there is an image in a church of San > Juan Teperico. This particular San Juan whose "last name" is > appropriately a hybrid of Nahuatl (tepetl/mountain) and Spanish > (rico/rich) is the focus of prayers for money. San Juan Teperico lives > in the lower world - Talocan - If you mean 'Tlalocan', that's more of an upper world -- a rich mountain, well watered (needless to say), and thus fitting the name 'teperico'. The lower world (literally) is 'Mictlan'. Still wondering what the PG13 content was in this...? -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling From rhaly at ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 27 19:55:26 1999 From: rhaly at ix.netcom.com (Richard Haly) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:55:26 -0600 Subject: AZ: (PG13) San Juan Teperico Message-ID: > If you mean 'Tlalocan', that's more of an upper world -- a rich mountain, > well watered (needless to say), and thus fitting the name 'teperico'. The > lower world (literally) is 'Mictlan'. > > Still wondering what the PG13 content was in this...? Talocan is the Sierra Norte de Puebla (a T-dialect pronounciation of Tlalocan. It is a lowerworld because it is within the surface of the earth (Talticpac/tlalticpac). I am in no way convinced that Mictlan as represented in the Florentine Codex etc. is not a generic place for the dead including Ilhuicac. topan mictlan can be read "above us in the land of the dead" which may or may not be two different places - especially as the sky was certainly a place for the dead (warriors, women dead in childbirth, and Tzitzitzimeh) just as Talocan also is a place where one meets up with ancestors. In the Sierra Norte de Puebla Talocan is very much like a combination of the elements associated with Mictlan and with Tlalocan (fertility). There is no confusion here since bones are fertile in Mesoamerica: omitl = bone(s) omiceyotl (that which pertains to bones) = semen. Moreover, the dead (ancestors) are the source of tonalli for the living. Best, Richard From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx Wed Oct 27 20:23:59 1999 From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:23:59 -0600 Subject: AZ: (PG13) San Juan Teperico Message-ID: Regarding fertile bones, its no coincidence that in Mexican Spanish fruit pits (avocado, peach, etc.) are called "huesos", "bones". I picked up this observation from Angel Garc?a Zambrano. John Sullivan Doctorado en Historia Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de Richard Haly Enviado el: Mi?rcoles, 27 de Octubre de 1999 01:58 p.m. Para: Multiple recipients of list Asunto: Re: AZ: (PG13) San Juan Teperico > If you mean 'Tlalocan', that's more of an upper world -- a rich mountain, > well watered (needless to say), and thus fitting the name 'teperico'. The > lower world (literally) is 'Mictlan'. > > Still wondering what the PG13 content was in this...? Talocan is the Sierra Norte de Puebla (a T-dialect pronounciation of Tlalocan. It is a lowerworld because it is within the surface of the earth (Talticpac/tlalticpac). I am in no way convinced that Mictlan as represented in the Florentine Codex etc. is not a generic place for the dead including Ilhuicac. topan mictlan can be read "above us in the land of the dead" which may or may not be two different places - especially as the sky was certainly a place for the dead (warriors, women dead in childbirth, and Tzitzitzimeh) just as Talocan also is a place where one meets up with ancestors. In the Sierra Norte de Puebla Talocan is very much like a combination of the elements associated with Mictlan and with Tlalocan (fertility). There is no confusion here since bones are fertile in Mesoamerica: omitl = bone(s) omiceyotl (that which pertains to bones) = semen. Moreover, the dead (ancestors) are the source of tonalli for the living. Best, Richard From cberry at cinenet.net Wed Oct 27 20:52:34 1999 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:52:34 -0600 Subject: AZ: (PG13) San Juan Teperico Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Richard Haly wrote: > > If you mean 'Tlalocan', that's more of an upper world -- a rich mountain, > > well watered (needless to say), and thus fitting the name 'teperico'. The > > lower world (literally) is 'Mictlan'. > > > > Still wondering what the PG13 content was in this...? > > Talocan is the Sierra Norte de Puebla (a T-dialect pronounciation of > Tlalocan. Ah, thank you. I tend to think in Classical terms and hadn't considered the source of your citation. > It is a lowerworld because it is within the surface of the earth > (Talticpac/tlalticpac). I am in no way convinced that Mictlan as represented > in the Florentine Codex etc. is not a generic place for the dead including > Ilhuicac. topan mictlan can be read "above us in the land of the dead" which > may or may not be two different places I have always read that as a classic difrassismo, 'above us, below us', alluding to "all the other (not normal-earthly-existence) lands." > - especially as the sky was certainly a place for the dead (warriors, > women dead in childbirth, and Tzitzitzimeh) just as Talocan also is a > place where one meets up with ancestors. In the Sierra Norte de Puebla > Talocan is very much like a combination of the elements associated with > Mictlan and with Tlalocan (fertility). There is no confusion here since > bones are fertile in Mesoamerica: omitl = bone(s) omiceyotl (that which > pertains to bones) = semen. Interesting! I hadn't encountered that word previously. -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling From karttu at nantucket.net Wed Oct 27 22:06:58 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:06:58 -0600 Subject: just a quick question Message-ID: One possible explanation is the invisibility of syllable-final nasal consonants in written Nahuatl. Orthographically they are often represented by a tilde or bar over the preceding vowel. Or they are simply left out. Phonetically there seems to be a reason for this. Syllable-final resonants [n,m,l] are "devoiced" in Nahuatl. That is, they are whispered. So they are hard to hear. Hence, they get left out of writing. Speakers in some sence "know they are there." It's only for nonspeakers that the writing system is confusing. Fran Karttunen ---------- >>Hi, >> >>I just happen to come across the following: >> >>(...) oncan quicenquixtiaya in tlatlaloque: >>auh in ihcuac oquicenquixtique, niman oncan quinmictiaya: >>auh in ihcuac in oquimonmictique, niman (...) >>( there they gathered them together [the sacrificial victims >>called] tlalocs: and when they had gathered them together, >>then they slew them there: and when they had slain them, >>then etc.) >> >>Would someone be kind enough to explain to me why is it >>found twice qui- instead of the expected quin-/quim- , >>namely 'quicenquixtiaya' (they gathered them together) and >>'oquicenquixtique' (they had gathered them together)? After all >>"tlatlaloque" is plural isn't it? Are those mere 'typos' >>or is there an explanation for them that I can't see? And if so, >>why then the "correct" quinmictiaya and oquimonmictique? >> >>Tlazocamati. >> >>Leonel >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Oct 28 05:23:34 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 23:23:34 -0600 Subject: just a quick question Message-ID: Fran, I *thought* that "case of the missing n's" should probably be resolved in the direction of some phonetic deletion, but then I fussed and fidgeted about the question of whether it might possibly have something to do with whether plurality was being marked at the morphological level or not. Leonel's comment on plural marking in the rest of the sentence pointed away from that, though. Syllable-final devoicing was one of my first neat surprises in Nahuatl -- when I made my first stumbling steps in Tepoztlan and Santa Catarina (Morelos), the devoicing of /l/ left the /l/'s with a great deal of friction and speakers of Spanish in Tepoztlan who knew little or no Nahuatl had it in their speech too. I recorded some Spanish narrative and lent a tape of it to one of my graduate professors in Spanish linguistics for his commentary. He told me that my speaker "had a very curious /s/" (in obvious reference to the voiceless /s/'s) and his credibility dropped like a rock. Of course, /y/ and /w/ also devoice too, in "classical" and modern dialects. /y/ ---> [x] is the basis for an early "gee whiz" experience (quipia, she takes care of it; oquipix, he took care of it [cl.], where the /y/ fails to show up in the present tense;;; tlaoya, he shells [corn]; otlaox, she shelled [corn] (Hueyapan, Morelos). Many modern dialects have converted syllable-final /w/ (spelled 'uh') into [h], so for years I doubted that I would ever hear a "real" voiceless /w/. Then I went to Ameyaltepec and heard it. Ameyaltepec Canoa she leaves it quicahua quicahua he left it oquicauh oquicah On the nasals, I think what happens in syllable-final position may be a different mechanism. Again, Tepoztlan and Santa Catarina have some relevant data: Tepoztlan Santa Catarina house calli calli houses caltin calti~ (where i~ represents nasalized 'i') People (particularly a friend of mine) from Tepoztlan would laugh scornfully about the ignorant n-dropping of the folks from Santa Catarina -- nomas no la saben pronunciar!! I think that the voicing in the i~ continues throughout the vowel, so the mechanism of "dropping" looks like what happened in French and Portuguese. --And even in Spanish. I've heard [e~fermo] for "enfermo" and [nara~ja] (excuse the 'j') for "naranja". Since the consonant that follows the nasal consonant is not a "stop" (complete closure) the articulators anticipate that small opening and the velum drops early, nasalizing the vowel. The historical process is categorically clear in Portuguese, where nasal vowels contrast with oral ones only before fricatives (e.g. f s z, etc.) and in final position. The nasal consonants remained stable before stops (e.g. p t k b d g ch, etc.). It seems to me that beginning in the 16th century, we can see nasal consonant dropping happening in three environments: 1. before /w y/ 2. word final 3. before fricative consonants (i.e. /s x/) I have assumed that 1 was a strong catalyst of /n/ deletion and that 3 was somewhat weaker -- and I have no strong intuition about 2. nantli mother nanyotl motherliness nayotl motherliness I know that we're not supposed to be subjective about the object of our analysis, but I really *like* n-dropping. San Agustin Oapan has it, resulting in: patlani it flies opatla it flew opatlanqueh they flew -- resulting in a little more depth in the phonology of the language -- and it can use it! ..and I didn't refer once to any PG13 topics.... Best regards, Joe On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Frances Karttunen wrote: > One possible explanation is the invisibility of syllable-final nasal > consonants in written Nahuatl. Orthographically they are often represented > by a tilde or bar over the preceding vowel. Or they are simply left out. > Phonetically there seems to be a reason for this. Syllable-final resonants > [n,m,l] are "devoiced" in Nahuatl. That is, they are whispered. So they > are hard to hear. Hence, they get left out of writing. Speakers in some > sence "know they are there." It's only for nonspeakers that the writing > system is confusing. > > >>(...) oncan quicenquixtiaya in tlatlaloque: > >>auh in ihcuac oquicenquixtique, niman oncan quinmictiaya: > >>auh in ihcuac in oquimonmictique, niman (...) > >>( there they gathered them together [the sacrificial victims > >>called] tlalocs: and when they had gathered them together, > >>then they slew them there: and when they had slain them, > >>then etc.) > >> > >>Would someone be kind enough to explain to me why is it > >>found twice qui- instead of the expected quin-/quim- , > >>namely 'quicenquixtiaya' (they gathered them together) and > >>'oquicenquixtique' (they had gathered them together)? After all > >>"tlatlaloque" is plural isn't it? Are those mere 'typos' > >>or is there an explanation for them that I can't see? And if so, > >>why then the "correct" quinmictiaya and oquimonmictique? From karttu at nantucket.net Thu Oct 28 11:46:18 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 05:46:18 -0600 Subject: just a quick question Message-ID: Dear Joe, I agree, agree, and agree some more. Ours is old stuff by now, but Jim Lockhart and I wrote about some of this in Nahuatl in the Middle Years (1976), trying to account for the orthographically missing n's (mostly) and the occasional orthographic substitutions of one consonant for another. Then I published a long footnote specifically about nasals from NMY in Linguistic Inquiry. And then, not really feeling done with the topic, we put another paper "Characteristics of Nahuatl Resonants" in the proceedings of Southwest Areal Linguistics (SWALLOW) V, which was published out of Trinity U. in San Antonio way back in 1977 (when we were all still young). Fran From dfrye at umich.edu Thu Oct 28 14:18:21 1999 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 08:18:21 -0600 Subject: San Juan Teperico Message-ID: Actually, it IS a coincidence -- or rather, it is one of the many "obvious metaphors" out there. "Hueso" as "stone, pit" is just plain old Spanish, not Mexican Spanish. (I am also reminded of the verse, I think it was from Corinthians, which Dostoevsky used as an epigraph to the Brothers Karamazov, to the effect that "what you sow does not live unless it first dies.") David Frye On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, John Sullivan Hendricks wrote: > Regarding fertile bones, its no coincidence that in Mexican Spanish fruit > pits (avocado, peach, etc.) are called "huesos", "bones". I picked up th= is > observation from Angel Garc=EDa Zambrano. From mdmorris at indiana.edu Thu Oct 28 15:45:52 1999 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:45:52 -0600 Subject: just a quick question Message-ID: Regarding nasal consonants, L. Reyes Garcia pointed out to me that "n" sometimes substitutes other consonants in colonial writing. The example I showed him was "quanli" for "cualli." I don't remember if _Nahuatl in the Middle Years_ makes comment of this or not. Is this common inmany types of Nahuatl? Does it occur only with specific consonant/vowel clusters? thanks, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From vilinahuatl at mexis.com Thu Oct 28 20:36:50 1999 From: vilinahuatl at mexis.com (Victor Angel Linares) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 14:36:50 -0600 Subject: occe iciuhca totlahtlaniliz Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01BF2159.14E940E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear (Totlazohicniuhtzin) John F. Schwaller, Nicnequi niez motocatlahtoltecpan, ye miecpa onicchiuh nictlaliz. Quenin huel nicchihuaz intla moyectlaliltzin nechilhuia cehcehpa = "invalid request: THIS" ihuan ahmo niquihcuiloa on. Tla xinechmopalehuili (axcan onicalac inic cehpa in Internet) Tlazohcamati. Micniuhtzin Victor Linares. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01BF2159.14E940E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear (Totlazohicniuhtzin) John F.=20 Schwaller,
Nicnequi niez motocatlahtoltecpan, ye = miecpa=20 onicchiuh nictlaliz.
Quenin huel nicchihuaz intla = moyectlaliltzin=20 nechilhuia cehcehpa "invalid request: THIS" ihuan ahmo niquihcuiloa=20 on.
 
Tla xinechmopalehuili (axcan onicalac = inic cehpa in=20 Internet)
 
Tlazohcamati.
 
Micniuhtzin
 
Victor Linares.
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_003F_01BF2159.14E940E0-- From karttu at nantucket.net Thu Oct 28 22:30:57 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:30:57 -0600 Subject: just a quick question Message-ID: Yes, NMY takes this up. There is a lot of orthographic substitution of resonants, especially n for others. Also much intrusion and omission. Do have a look at NMY if you can get a copy. Fran ---------- >From: Mark David Morris >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: just a quick question >Date: Thu, Oct 28, 1999, 11:47 AM > > Regarding nasal consonants, L. Reyes Garcia pointed out to me that "n" > sometimes substitutes other consonants in colonial writing. The example I > showed him was "quanli" for "cualli." I don't remember if _Nahuatl in the > Middle Years_ makes comment of this or not. Is this common inmany types > of Nahuatl? Does it occur only with specific consonant/vowel clusters? > > thanks, > Mark Morris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more > grief. Eccl 1:18 > > To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To > regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we > are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not > sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 > > MDM, PhD Candidate > Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. > > From leonelhermida at netc.pt Fri Oct 29 08:25:57 1999 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 02:25:57 -0600 Subject: 'Totatzine' Message-ID: Hi Joe, As people say here 'one should hammer the iron while it is hot', so I am reporting without delay to you and to the 'list' the results, the doubts and the conjectures coming from my dealing with the Nahuatl version of the 'Pater' (Mattew vi.9-13) you kindly sent to me. >TOtatzine in ilhuicac timoetztica, ma c/enca >yectenehuallo in motocatzin "Our revered father, which art in heaven: hallowed be thy revered name". I suppose final -e in 'totatzine' is a vocative suffix, am I right? The first difficulty is 'timoetztica': ti- is 2nd. p. subj., mo- is perhaps the reflexive and it ends with -tica (perhaps better -ticah) which is the present of cah (be), but I was unable to deal with etz- (or moetz-?) (if it were quetz- I would say it means 'stand' so 'thou art standing' but as it is I cannot decide...). Is it correct to put *totahtzine instead of totatzine, *timoetzticah instead of timoetztica and yectenehuallo with a single 'l' so *yectenehualo? >ma hualauh in motlatocayotzin No difficulties except that my glossary has 'huallauh= to come' instead of 'hualauh' . Which one is correct? >ma chihuallo in motlanequil- >litzin in yuh chihuallo in ilhuicac in tlalticpac this time I'm afraid my source indicates 'chihualo' would be better than 'chihuallo' as a passive of 'chihua= to do, make' and *tlanequiliztzin instead of tlanequillitzin (it has 'tlanequiliztli= will, willpower'). Which one is the best? Also I have not found the meaning of 'yuh', though my source does have 'yuhquin= like this, this way'...so the whole passage would translate: "Thy revered will be done on earth as it is in heaven", pretty much the same as the English version except in that Nahuatl repeats the verb (chihualo) and puts 'in heaven' before 'in earth' according perhaps better with the Latin "sicut in caelo et in terra" which follows the original Greek "hws yn ouranwi kai epi gys" (I put eta=y, omega =w and the spiritus asper=h). So yuh= ? >auh ma xitechmomaquilli in axcan in totlaxcal >momoztlaye totech monequiz Again I have *momaquilia= to give, instead of momaquilli; I coud not find 'axcan' or 'in axcan' but that I conjecture to mean 'this day=today' (?); but I did find 'momoztlaye= daily' and 'totechmonequi= totech monequi = we need'; does totech monequiz is the future and means ' as we will come to need' or something alike? Or has the final -z another meaning? This form "totech monequiz" is very intriguing to me and I would be grateful to the lady or gentleman who is so kind as to explain it to me. >auh ma xitech-mopopolhuillilli in totlatlacol, >in yuh tiquin-popolhuia in techtlatlacalhuia I was able to puzzle out (in part) 'xitechmopopolhuillilli', knowing that mopopolhuilia means ' to forgive' but could not make anything of the ending "-lli" after "-illi". I was however unable to find in my glossary "tla-tlacol". I would put boldly "(tla)tlacolli= debt" if I was not aware of the fact that in the Iberian Peninsula children are (or at least were) teached to say in prayers *our offenses* instead of "our debts" (this latter being the correct rendering of the Latin "debita nostra" which follows the original Greek "ta opheilymata hymwn". So I remain ignorant as to whether 'tlacolli' ( or is it tlatlacolli?) means 'debt' or 'offense' (or yet a 3rd thing...). 'popolhuilia' we all agree is 'forgive', but a doubt about the meaning of 'techtlatlacalhuia' remains. The ending also is not clear to me. (looks like a noun is constructed from a verb form whose origin was the aforementioned noun '(tla)tlacotl'...) (I'm afraid verb endings and deverbative suffixes are a long way ahead for me...) >anh macamo xitechmocahuilli inic ipan tihuetzizque >in tene[y]ecoltiliztli 'auh macamo xitechmocahuilli' is of course "and do not leave us" and 'huetzi' being 'to fall down' and 'teneyecoltiliztli= temptation' this puts together as "and do not leave us to fall into temptation" which is NOT the same as the English , the Latin and the Greek, ( which three all agree with "and lead us not into temptation" ) but IS the same as is ordinarily spoken in the Spanish speaking countries in prayers. >Ma in mochihua Is of course "may this/it become [true]'. I apologize for having been so long and (I'm afraid) so boring. Best wishes, Leonel P.S. I would say the Nahuatl version of the 'Pater' has nothing to envy to its counterparts in Spanish or English either in beauty or in conciseness...A 'great' text by any standards, thank you!... L. From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Oct 29 13:14:09 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 07:14:09 -0600 Subject: 'Totatzine' Message-ID: Dear Lionel, In case Joe doesn't answer for a bit while he's on his trip to Illinois, let me give your queries a start: > >>TOtatzine in ilhuicac timoetztica, ma c/enca >>yectenehuallo in motocatzin > > "Our revered father, which art in heaven: hallowed be thy revered > name". > I suppose final -e in 'totatzine' is a vocative suffix, am I right? Yes. And it implies that the person praying is male, because women didn't use the -e vocative. > The first difficulty is 'timoetztica': ti- is 2nd. p. subj. ti- is the second person singular subject prefix meaning 'you'. (Confusingly enough, ti- is also the first person plural one meaning 'we', but here it's clear that 'you-singular' is what is intended.) > mo- is perhaps the reflexive Right. Here the reflexive combines with the causative form of the verb to form the honorific. One is addressing God, so this complicated honorific verb form is required. > and it ends up with -tica (perhaps better ticah) which is the present of cah (be) Right again. The verb cah (equiv. to Spanish estar) is combined with verbs using the ligature -ti- to form a durative construction: 'to be V-ing' > but I was unable to deal with etz- (or moetz-?) The Nahuatl verb 'to be" is suppletive. That is, it has different forms for different tenses and modes. For the present there is -cah. For the causative, it has the form etz (or more commonly yetz). So this phrase means 'You are honorifically being in heaven'. >Is it correct to put *totahtzine instead of > totatzine, *timoetzticah instead of timoetztica Why not? With the h, you are indicating the saltillo, which is a real consonant in Nahuatl. Without the h, you are using the traditional orthography, which left out the saltillo because the Spaniards had a lot of trouble hearing it. (Nahuatl speakers knew where the saltillos were in any case and didn't actually have to write them. It's just we, today, who don't know where they all are.) > and yectenehuallo with a single 'l' so *yectenehualo? The impersonal patientive noun formed from the verb yectenehua is yectenehualli 'something that is praised'. One can then add the suffix -yoh to mean 'thing invested with the quality of N'. The y of the suffix assimilates to the final l of the stem to give ll, so you get yectenehual-yoh > yectenehualloh. The phrase yectenehualloh in motocatzin means 'your name-honorific [is] a thing invested with the quality of being praised.' >>ma hualauh in motlatocayotzin > > No difficulties except that my glossary has 'huallauh= to come' instead > of 'hualauh' . Which one is correct? This verb should properly have a double ll. It is composed of the directional hual- 'in this direction' and yauh 'come' with the same ly > ll assimilation that one gets in yectenehuallo > >>ma chihuallo in motlanequillitzin in yuh chihuallo in ilhuicac in tlalticpac > > this time I'm afraid my source indicates 'chihualo' would be better than > 'chihuallo' as a passive of 'chihua= to do, make' Again, you are absolutely right. The "ma' at the beginning of this clause indicates that the verb is in the optative form, that is it expresses a wish that something should be. Adding -lo to the verb chihua (twice) means that people in general, not just some specific people do God's will. It's not so much passive as impersonal. "May Thy will be done" corresponds to "May it be that people-in-general do Thy will." > and *tlanequiliztzin instead of tlanequillitzin (it has 'tlanequiliztli= will, willpower'). Which one is the best? The single l, as you have surmised. > Also I have not found the meaning of 'yuh' It's a little verb meaning 'to be a particular way'. So yuh and yuhquin both mean 'it is thus', or 'it is so'. > so the whole passage > would translate: "Thy revered will be done on earth as it is in heaven", > pretty much the same as the English version except in that Nahuatl > repeats the verb (chihualo) and puts 'in heaven' before 'in earth' > according perhaps better with the Latin "sicut in caelo et in terra" which > follows the original Greek "hws yn ouranwi kai epi gys" (I put eta=y, > omega =w and the spiritus asper=h). Right. It might be read 'as in heaven it is done, so on earth may it be done'. Have to stop now, because work calls. I'm sure Joe will pick up on the rest of your query. Your message is wonderful because it shows that you have done a lot of thinking and looking up of things before posting your query. That makes it irresistible. It's terribly hard to take a sophisticated text with every sort of grammatical complexity and try to ravel it all out at once. I know that this is the appraoch that has been used by a lot of teachers, but it seems to frustrate learners. At the risk of self-promotion, let me risk saying that if you are going to invest all this work in Nahuatl, you might want to ask Fritz Schwaller about getting a copy of Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar. Fran From Amapohuani at aol.com Fri Oct 29 16:46:16 1999 From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:46:16 -0600 Subject: 'Totatzine' Message-ID: Leonel and Listeros: Just a comment re the Pater Noster. There are various versions (usually only slight variations) of the Pater Noster, Ave Maria, Salve, and Credo in a number of colonial Nahuatl publications. Some of these are accompanied by contemporary Spanish translations. One such version appears on p. 162 of John "Fritz" Schwaller's and my critical edition of Don Bartolome de Alva's confessionario of 1634 (going by the Nahuatl, it appears to be the the Pater Noster you are analyzing). Fritz and I have our own English version but as Arthur J. O. Anderson once wrote me, there is no one way to translate such texts. And Frances is giving you excellent guidance in any case. My own guess re the various Nahuatl versions of the four prayers is that each time a colonial nahuatlato and his Nahua aides/teachers needed one or more of the prayers they simply did it again themselves without feeling bound to copy, word for word, the efforts of their predecessors. As far as I can tell, this was common practice in many ecclesiastical texts. Also, in his ARTE of 1571, fray Alonso de Molina (in the second part or "book") has a section on the first part of the Pater Noster, analyzing it element by element. If this has already been mentioned, excuse the superfluous comment. Good luck with your studies. Ye ixquich. Barry From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Oct 30 03:06:28 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 21:06:28 -0600 Subject: 'Totatzine' Message-ID: Tlen tai Leonel, I tried to fill in some comments on what Fran wrote. If between the two of us, something is left uncovered, some "cuauhixe" of Nahuat-l will point it out. Best regards, Joe ***************************************************************** to-tlatlacol = to-tlahtlacol tlahtlacolli = sin, fault, something damaged from the verb ihtlacahui = deteriorate, spoil, suffer damage ihtlacahui + caus06 > ihtlacoa = damage, hurt nitlahtlacoa = I damage something (the /i/ of the stem elides) tlahtlacolli = something damaged (back where we started) ********* <>in yuh tiquin-popolhuia in techtlatlacalhuia |||| |||||| benefactive on popoloa benefactive on ihtlacoa they damage s.o. on us they offend us ***************************************************************** note on yuh: from the verb ihui = be similar, seem, be thus Without getting into "deep" word formation (or what really amounts to showing word formation by embedding a historical account in the explanation -- which I, incidentally, am in favor of), "adjectives" are usually formed in Nahuatl by adding -c or -qui to the perfective form of a verb stem. Examples: nipaqui I rejoice opac he rejoiced pacqui happy tzimpitzahua it is narrow at the bottom (tzintli = buttocks) tzimpitzahuac narrow at the bottom tlilihui it gets black, dark-colored (said of an object) (tlilli = lampblack) tliliuhqui blackened tlapani it breaks tlapanqui broken xocomiqui she gets drunk (xocotl = sourness; generic reference to fruit and wine) xocomicqui drunk pahti he gets well (pahtli = medicine, potion; pahti = he *has* cure) pahtic well, cured acalti it develops a groove (it becomes like a canoe) acaltic grooved ihui forms the preterit "iuh" as well as the adjective "iuhqui", both occurring in text meaning 'thus, so'. The "yuh" spelling represents the freedom of 16th century spelling, which, in itself, is not bad. The only problem is that for us, in the 20th century (and not *hearing* 16th century Nahuatl on a daily basis, it could cause the mis-impression that either word begins with [y], not [i]. The pronunciations are [iw] and [iwki] (voiceless w's), not [y...] and [y...ki]. The spelling here broke down, since [yw] is impossible (if you don't buy a vowel, you can't have a syllable). ***************************************************************** <>Again I have *momaquilia= to give, instead of momaquilli; I coud not find <>'axcan' or 'in axcan' but that I conjecture to mean 'this day=today' (?); <>but I did find 'momoztlaye= daily' and 'totechmonequi= totech monequi <>= we need'; does totech monequiz is the future and means ' as we will <>come to need' or something alike? Or has the final -z another meaning? <>This form "totech monequiz" is very intriguing to me and I would be grateful <>to the lady or gentleman who is so kind as to explain it to me. Two comments on momaquilli: 1) after you have read enough of a certain text and you find the writer not distinguishing between 'l' and 'll', you always read each word (or instance of any 'l' within a word) both ways. Double 'll' is always derived in Nahuatl (i.e., it never occurs inside morphemes and is always the result of 1) l + y (as Fran pointed out) or 2) l + tl). Since the honorific is composed of a reflexive prefix and either a causative or benefactive suffix, 'he [H] gives it to us' (using the most common form of the benefactive, "-ilia", is: techmomaquilia || |||| However, in command and optative forms, -ia and -oa drop their final vowels, so the honorific way to say 'give it to me' is: xinechmomaquili ********* in totlaxcal ... totech monequiz: Nahuatl made use of either of two grammatical structures to express the notion of *passive*, either the reflexive or the impersonal. So for instance, 'it is drunk' is: m[o]-i or i-hua (the impersonal endings are -lo and -hua; each verb stem has license for one of them; some even take both: -lohua or -hualo) Yes, -z is the future suffix. To indicate plural subject, simply add -queh. choloa he flees ticholoz you will flee ticholozqueh we will flee cholozqueh they will flee Note that -ia and -oa also drop their second vowel in future (just as they do in the commands, optatives, and preterits). So: monequiz = it will be wanted (it will be necessary) -tech is one of the more slippery postpositions semantically, being variously translated as 'to, for, against' -- even 'with regard to', so "totech monequiz" means 'it will be needed with regard to us' or 'we will need it'. The postposition allows a noun argument which *might* be attached directly to the verb to be expressed in an "outrigger" position. The best way to learn the semantics and uses of postpositions is to start with a *rough* idea of their respective meanings and then refine one's feeling for them by reading them in context. From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Oct 30 13:08:05 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 07:08:05 -0600 Subject: itech 4 Message-ID: I checked for the occurrence of "itech" in the FC and the results were too big for one message, so I divided the file into five parts. Here is number 4. If there is interest in the others, of course, I'd be glad to send them. Best regards, Joe =20 451. auh itla tetontli: tlacotl, cuauhtontli in *itech* moyeyecoa quichoponia:. and it makes a test on some small stone, shrub, small tree; it strikes it. (b.11 f.8 p.77).=20 =20 452. *itech* quiza maquiztli, quitoznequi: macuextli, ihuan cohuatl:. [its name] comes from maquiztli, which is to say macuextli, and coatl. (b.11 f.8 p.79).=20 =20 453. inic mitoa tlalmazacohuatl: ca zan nohuian, in milpan nemi: auh inic mazatl *itech* onca, ca cuacuauhtone.. it is called tlalma=87acoatl because it dwells everywhere in the maize fields; and from deer, because it has small horns. (b.11 f.8 p.80).=20 =20 454. auh inic mitoa tlapapalcohuatl: huel ixquich *itech* ca in tlapalli, ic mohuahuahuan. quimoquequechili:. and it is named tlapapalcoatl because on it are indeed all colors; it is striped with them; they run from one end to the other. (b.11 f.8 p.80).=20 =20 455. inic mitoa tetzmolcohuatl in aquin, anozo in tlein *itech* motecuia, niman aoc huel quicahua; ixquichica in quimictiz, ihuan cenca chicahuac, cenca ichtic.. it is named tetzmolcoatl because the person or thing about which it coils itself, it never more lets go until it kills it. and it is very strong, very wiry. (b.11 f.9 p.85).=20 =20 456. xicalli *itech* mitoa, ihuan cohuatl. it is named for xicalli and coatl. (b.11 f.9 p.85).=20 =20 457. auh inin xicalli: huel *itech* cenquizca ca in tlapalli, inic tlacuicuilolli,. and this gourd bowl: the coloring with which it is painted is part of it. (b.11 f.9 p.85).=20 =20 458. *itech* quiztica olli: ipampa ololtic, niman ye cohuatl: ipampa onca itzontecon, ihuan icuitlapil,. [its name] comes from olli because it is round, [and black]; then coatl, because it has its head and its tail. (b.11 f.9 p.86).=20 =20 459. *itech* quiza in itoca petlazolli, ihuan cohuatl: ipanpa ca achiuhqui in cohuatl.. its name comes from petla=87olli and coatl, because it is almost like a serpent. (b.11 f.9 p.86).=20 =20 460. *itech* quiza in nipinahua, anozo nitepinauhtia:. [its name] comes from "i am ashamed" or "i shame someone." (b.11 f.9 p.89).=20 =20 461. *itech* mitoa cuahuitl, ihuan azcatl: ipanpa cuauhtitech, cuauhpalanitech yoli, in tlacati:. it is named from quauitl [tree] and azcatl [ant] because it lives on trees, on rotten wood, where it breeds. (b.11 f.9 p.90).=20 =20 462. *itech* mitoa in cuitlatl, ihuan azcatl: ipampan cuitlayac,. it is named from cuitlatl [dung] and azcatl [ant] because it smells of dung. (b.11 f.9 p.90).=20 =20 463. in tlein ceppa *itech* mopiloa, aocmo quicahua, quitlamia, quihuatza.. whatever it clings to it no more releases; it consumes it, it sucks it dry. (b.11 f.9 p.91).=20 =20 464. *itech* quiza in itoca tlalli, ihuan omitl: ipampa in zan huel tlallan yoli, ihuan mochipa ompa onoc:. its name comes from tlalli [earth] and omitl [bone], because it is really a creature in the ground, and always remains there. (b.11 f.10 p.92).=20 =20 465. in itoca *itech* quiza in cuitlatl, ihuan cololoa: ipampa ca in canin quitta cuitlatl cololoa, quiteololalia: auh quimimilotiuh quihuica.. its name comes from cuitlatl [dung] and cololoa [it makes it into a ball], because wherever it sees dung, it makes it into a ball, it forms it into a ball, and goes rolling it along; it transports it. (b.11 f.10 p.93).=20 =20 466. in itoca *itech* quiza tzontli, niman ye ima: ipampa in ima cenca huihuiac, tliltic, pitzatoton huel iuhquin tzontli. its name comes from tzontli [hair] then ima [its arms], because its arms are very long, black, small and slender, just like hair. (b.11 f.10 p.93).=20 =20 467. *itech* quiza in itoca xicalli ihuan papalotl: ipampa ca coztic, huel coztic, tomiollo:. its name comes from xicalli [gourd bowl] and papalotl [butterfly], because it is yellow, it is quite yellow, it is fuzzy. (b.11 f.10 p.94).=20 =20 468. achi itloc in xicalpapalotl, ipampa mocuicuilo, iuhquin chien tzitzicuicatoc in nohuian inacayo *itech*, ihuan in iatlapalpan mocuicuiloa, mochiancuicuiloa.. it is somewhat similar to the xicalpapalotl, because it is painted as if sprinkled with chia, flecked everywhere on its body; and its wings are painted, painted with a chia design. (b.11 f.10 p.95).=20 =20 469. *itech* quiza in itoca texotli.. its name comes from texotli [light blue]. (b.11 f.10 p.95).=20 =20 470. miec tlamantli tlapalli *itech* ca inic cuicuiltic: huel xochitic, huellamomoxoltic: auh huel moxtic, huel mahuiztic,. many kinds of colors are on them, so that they are varicolored, much like flowers, of very intricate design, and truly sought after, truly wonderful. (b.11 f.10 p.95).=20 =20 471. in itoca *itech* quiza in acatl: quitoznequi mitl: ipampa inic patlani, iuhquin tlamina:. its name comes from acatl [reed], that is "arrow," because when it flies, it is as if one shot an arrow. (b.11 f.10 p.95).=20 =20 472. *itech* tlacati in capoli:. it hatches on american cherry trees. (b.11 f.10 p.97).=20 =20 473. in itoca *itech* quiza tetatamachihua: ipampa ca huiacatontli in ocuilton.. its name comes from tetamachiua [it measures one], because the little worm is a little long. (b.11 f.10 p.97).=20 =20 474. inin huel *itech* yoli, itech tlacati in topozan:. this ones lives, hatches on the topo=87an tree. (b.11 f.10 p.97).=20 =20 475. inin huel itech yoli, *itech* tlacati in topozan:. this ones lives, hatches on the topo=87an tree. (b.11 f.10 p.97).=20 =20 476. in macehualli *itech* ca, in itzinco hualpotzahui iztacatotonti, in ocuiltoton; iuhquin, in quin ye pehua nacatl palani yiocuillo,. those which are in the common folk, which well out of their anuses, are small white worms like the worms in meat when it starts to putrefy. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 477. za mochi ocuilin itoca, in zazo tlein palanqui *itech* yoli.. all are called worms, in whatever putrefaction they live. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 478. inic mitoa chiancuetla: huel inan in chiencuahuitl, huel *itech* in onoc in mochihua.. they are called chiancuetlan because the chenquauitl tree is really their mother; right in they are, they develop. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 479. inin zan huel *itech* yoli, itech tlacati in elotl,. this one lives right on, hatches on the green maize ears. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 480. inin zan huel itech yoli, *itech* tlacati in elotl,. this one lives right on, hatches on the green maize ears. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 481. zan huel iitic tlacati in tlazolli, zan huel *itech* yoli:. it hatches right in rubbish; it lives right in it. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 482. tlacuauh *itech* nemi, itech tlacati in nochtli. it lives, it breeds especially on the fruit of the nopal. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 483. tlacuauh itech nemi, *itech* tlacati in nochtli. it lives, it breeds especially on the fruit of the nopal. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 484. in *itech* ca in itech mochihua quimichi, tochi. etc.. they are on, they form on mice, rabbits, etc. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 485. in itech ca in *itech* mochihua quimichi, tochi. etc.. they are on, they form on mice, rabbits, etc. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 486. ahzo motlatlaloa in quimichi, in anozo tlein yolcatl *itech*. perhaps the mice, or whatever creature the worm lives on, flees. (b.11 f.10 p.99).=20 =20 487. mitoa motocayotia citlalmitl auh in tlein *itech* ca, citlalminqui itoca.. it is said they are named "star arrow," and what they are on is called "shot by a star. (b.11 f.10 p.100).=20 =20 488. yehuatl in cuahuitl iiti, in cuahuitl *itech* tlacati:. this one hatches in the trees, on the trees. (b.11 f.10 p.100).=20 =20 489. yehuatl in cuahuitl *itech* tlacati, in itech yoli,. this one hatches in wood; it lives in it. (b.11 f.10 p.100).=20 =20 490. yehuatl in cuahuitl itech tlacati, in *itech* yoli,. this one hatches in wood; it lives in it. (b.11 f.10 p.100).=20 =20 491. inic macuillamantli, itoca copitl: *itech* quizan nicopi, ipanpa huallanextitiuh oceuhtiuh:. a fifth kind is called copitl, which comes from nicopi [i close my eyes], because it goes shining, it goes with light extinguished. (b.11 f.10 p.101).=20 =20 492. in campa tlein *itech* motlalia, in quichichina: zan no ihuan itech motzinchichiqui, oncan hiciuhca motetia, iciuhca ocuiltoton oncan yoli.. wheresoever it settles, it sucks; on the same place it also rubs its rump; there it quickly lays eggs; soon little worms live there. (b.11 f.11 p.102).=20 =20 493. in campa tlein itech motlalia, in quichichina: zan no ihuan *itech* motzinchichiqui, oncan hiciuhca motetia, iciuhca ocuiltoton oncan yoli.. wheresoever it settles, it sucks; on the same place it also rubs its rump; there it quickly lays eggs; soon little worms live there. (b.11 f.11 p.102).=20 =20 494. inic chicuacen capitulo: itechpa tlatoa in nepapan cuahuitl, ihuan in izquitlamantli *itech* ca, iuhquinma ichicahualizo.. sixth chapter, which telleth of the various trees, and of the various properties which correspond to them, such as their strength. (b.11 f.11 p.103).=20 =20 495. ic impan mitoa in mopoani, in zatepan cenca icnoyotl *itech* yauh, hualxoxocotihuan tlalticpac,. therefore it is said of the proud, to whom later great misery comes, "the fruit comes to earth." (b.11 f.11 p.108).=20 =20 496. cuauhtlactli; in itlac cuahuitl: yehuatl in *itech* hualehua in cuauhtzontetl in itech onaci icuapitzahuaya,. the trunk of the tree, the tree trunk: this rises from the base; it reaches to the slender part [above]. (b.11 f.11 p.113).=20 =20 497. cuauhtlactli; in itlac cuahuitl: yehuatl in itech hualehua in cuauhtzontetl in *itech* onaci icuapitzahuaya,. the trunk of the tree, the tree trunk: this rises from the base; it reaches to the slender part [above]. (b.11 f.11 p.113).=20 =20 498. *itech* quiza in huepantli, huel teconi, cuahcuauhuani,. from it comes the beam, that which can be well cut, that which can be carpentered. (b.11 f.12 p.114).=20 =20 499. cuauhtzontli, cuauhtzontetl: in tlein huepantli, anozo cuauhtectli *itech* huetzi;. the tree trunk, the trunk of the tree, is that from which the beams or logs come. (b.11 f.12 p.116).=20 =20 500. xococuahuitl, in zazo tlein xocotl *itech* mochihua in huel xococ, in zan achi xococ.. the fruit tree, the fruit of whatever kind growing on it: the quite sour, the slightly sour. (b.11 f.12 p.118).=20 =20 501. inic chicuei parrapho itechpa mitoa in quenami nopalli *itech* ca nochtli.. eighth paragraph, in which are told the sorts of nopal and the tunas on them. (b.11 f.12 p.122).=20 =20 502. zacatlaxcalyayactic: in *itech* quiquiza, itoca tlatocnochtli,. [the tuna] is dark yellow; thence comes its name, tlatocnochtli. (b.11 f.12 p.123).=20 =20 503. in *itech* quiza, itoca cuicuilnochtli,. from it come [the tunas] named cuicuilnochtli. (b.11 f.12 p.123).=20 =20 504. in *itech* quiza itoca anochtli,. from it come [the tunas] named anochtli. (b.11 f.12 p.123).=20 =20 505. in *itech* quiza, in itlaaquillo itoca, tzohualnochtli,. from it comes its fruit named tzooalnochtli. (b.11 f.12 p.123).=20 =20 506. in *itech* mochihua itoca zacanochtli,. the name of what grows on it is =87acanochtli. (b.11 f.12 p.124).=20 =20 507. *itech* quiza inelhuayo. [the name] comes from its root. (b.11 f.13 p.124).=20 =20 508. in aquin quicua in, in anozo qui: *itech* quiza, iuhquin nanacatl:. on him who eats it or drinks it, it takes effect like mushrooms. (b.11 f.13 p.127).=20 =20 509. ahzo cemilhuitl, anozo omilhuitl in *itech* quiza, tel zan no concahua:. it affects him perhaps one day, perhaps two days, but likewise it abates. (b.11 f.13 p.127).=20 =20 510. auh intla zan hueli quicua cemicac yollochicotiz, yollotlahuelilotiz, cemicac *itech* quinehuaz aoc tlacacemelle yez.. and if he eats it moderately, he will forever be disturbed, maddened; he will always be possessed, no longer tranquil. (b.11 f.13 p.127).=20 =20 511. catolhuia in ixinachyo, cochpana, cololoa in tlaelli, in cuitlaxcolli *itech* onoc,. they make an atole from its seeds, which cleans out, moves out the flux which is in the intestines. (b.11 f.13 p.138).=20 =20 512. *itech* monequi in aquin papalani inacacayo;. it is required by those whose flesh is suppurated. (b.11 f.14 p.142).=20 =20 513. *itech* monequi in aquin motlehuia, contexilia, coni; ic hualnoquia in quicocoa,. it is required by one who has a fever; they grind it for him to drink, thereby purging him who takes sick. (b.11 f.14 p.142).=20 =20 514. no *itech* monequi in aquin palani inacayo,. it is also required by one whose flesh is festered. (b.11 f.14 p.142).=20 =20 515. *itech* monequi in aquin motlehuia,. he who has a fever requires it. (b.11 f.14 p.143).=20 =20 516. *itech* monequi in aquin totonic inacayo,. he who has blistered his flesh requires it. (b.11 f.14 p.143).=20 =20 517. *itech* monequi in aquin tletl itech ca.. he who has a fever requires it. (b.11 f.14 p.143).=20 =20 518. itech monequi in aquin tletl *itech* ca.. he who has a fever requires it. (b.11 f.14 p.143).=20 =20 519. *itech* monequi in aquin motlehuia,. he who has a fever requires it. (b.11 f.14 p.144).=20 =20 520. *itech* monequi in aquin itipozahua, anozo quinoquia:. [the root] is required by one who has a swollen stomach or diarrhea. (b.11 f.14 p.144).=20 =20 521. *itech* monequi in aquin cenca icica,. it is required by him who pants much. (b.11 f.14 p.145).=20 =20 522. *itech* monequi in aquin omitlacoconi in anoce omocochtemic, in anozo quimauhtique:. it is required by one who has harmed his genitals, or has expelled semen in his sleep, or they have frightened him [in the act]. (b.11 f.14 p.145).=20 =20 523. *itech* monequi in totonqui itech ca. it is required by one who has a fever. (b.11 f.14 p.145).=20 =20 524. itech monequi in totonqui *itech* ca. it is required by one who has a fever. (b.11 f.14 p.145).=20 =20 525. *itech* monequi in motlehuia,. it is required by one who has a fever. (b.11 f.14 p.145).=20 =20 526. *itech* monequi in coacihui ic moxaxacualoa:. it is required when one has gout; he rubs himself with it. (b.11 f.14 p.146).=20 =20 527. amo maye in iamatlapal: zan niman *itech* quiza in icuauhyo maxoxoctic.. it has no branches; its leaves only come out from its green trunk. (b.11 f.14 p.149).=20 =20 528. *itech* monequi in aquin minalo, anozo mihxili:. it is required by him who is pierced by an arrow or has a sliver in the foot. (b.11 f.14 p.149).=20 =20 529. *itech* monequi in aquin melixhuitia, in aocmo huel temo quicua anozo qui.. it is required by one who has indigestion, who is constipated; he eats it, or drinks it [with water]. (b.11 f.15 p.150).=20 =20 530. yehuatl *itech* monequi in aquin omaxixtzauc, anozo omotzintzauc in amo huel quiza inemanahuil, yie itipozahua:. it is required by him who suffers from dysuria or has become constipated, whose excrement can no longer come out, who already has a distended abdomen. (b.11 f.15 p.153).=20 =20 531. moteci. *itech* monequi: in aquin motlehuia, in cenca mitonia inacayo:. ground up, it is required by one who has a fever, whose body becomes very hot. (b.11 f.15 p.153).=20 =20 532. *itech* monequi, conitia in cihuatl, in otlacachiuh. it is required by, [and] one gives it in a drink to, a woman who has given birth to a child. (b.11 f.15 p.154).=20 =20 533. conitia in aquin motlehuia in ixco, in ixayac *itech* papanhuetzi:. he who has a fever which comes to the surface in his eyes, in his face, drinks it. (b.11 f.15 p.154).=20 =20 534. *itech* monequi in aquin ixillan omotlali temalli in toquichcocol, in ye cuanhuaqui:. it is required by one who has pus settle in his abdomen, who has the male sickness, who dries up. (b.11 f.15 p.155).=20 =20 535. *itech* monequi in aquin mocaxania in omococoaya: anozo cihuatl iciuhca oquichcochi, anozo cihuacochi:. it is required when one who has become sick has a relapse, or if soon [after sickness] a woman sleeps with a man or a man sleeps with her. (b.11 f.15 p.155).=20 =20 536. *itech* monequi in aquin eztli quiza iyacac in amo huel motzacua. it is required by one who has a nosebleed which cannot be stanched. (b.11 f.15 p.156).=20 =20 537. in inelhuayo: coni in aquin motlehuia, in iitic motlalia tletl: in tonacayo itztic in pani, anoce huel *itech* motlalia in totlalhuayo, in ticececmiqui. he who has a fever, a fever located internally, while there are chills on the surface of the body, or chills settled in the nerves, drinks [an infusion of] its roots. (b.11 f.15 p.156).=20 =20 538. *itech* monequi in aquin mapitza: ihuan in aquin cenca totonia inacayo,. it is required by him who has diarrhea, and by him whose body is very hot. (b.11 f.15 p.157).=20 =20 539. *itech* monequi in aquin pozahua in inacayo: anoce ye palani in inacayo. it is required by one whose body is swollen, or whose body is festered. (b.11 f.15 p.157).=20 =20 540. ihuan no yehuatl coni in aquin *itech* catqui, in quitocayotia matlaltotonqui.. and he who has [the ailment] named matlaltotonqui also drinks it. (b.11 f.15 p.158).=20 =20 541. occan, excan cuichehua, xoxohuixtimomana in *itech* tonacayo. in ihcuac mih,. in two places, in three places, there are dark spots; bruises appear on the body when it is drunk. (b.11 f.15 p.158).=20 =20 542. *itech* monequi in aquin mococolilochtia, in cenca icica, in cenca totonia inacayo:. it is required by one who has a relapse, who pants considerably, whose body burns considerably. (b.11 f.15 p.159).=20 =20 543. nohuian *itech* quiza in tonacayo:. in all parts [the fever] leaves the body. (b.11 f.16 p.161).=20 =20 544. yehuatl *itech* monequi in aquin itipozahua in iiti xaxamacatinemi, anozo ye pozahua in inacayo: ihuan in aquin ixillan tetecuicatinemi, ahzo cihuatl, ahzo toquichti, ahzo piltontli:. this is required by one whose abdomen is distended, whose abdomen goes rumbling, or whose body is swollen, and by one whose abdomen goes resounding, whether woman or man or child. (b.11 f.16 p.161).=20 =20 545. in iamatlapal imemeyallo, ihuan yiacacelica iuhqui in chichihualayotl *itech* quiza,. the sap, which comes from its leaves and its tender tips, is like milk. (b.11 f.16 p.161).=20 =20 546. *itech* monequi in chichihua in oxocox ichichihualayo,. it is required by one nursing [infants] whose milk is sour. (b.11 f.16 p.162).=20 =20 547. matenextic, totomio, zan *itech* onoc in tomio. the blades are ashen, fuzzy; the fuzz is only on the blades. (b.11 f.16 p.162).=20 =20 548. *itech* monequi in aquin nanahuati, anozo papalani in inchichic.. it is required by one who has pustules or is covered with sores. (b.11 f.16 p.162).=20 =20 549. oncan quitemilia in *itech* nanahuatl in oncan hualquiquiza chiahuizatl, anozo palaxtli: ic pati.. there they make it cover the pustules where the serous blood flows out, or else the sores, with this they heal. (b.11 f.16 p.162).=20 =20 550. *itech* monequi in aquin xochicihui,. it is required by him who has hemorrhoids. (b.11 f.16 p.163).=20 =20 551. in tetzintlan anozo tototouh *itech* motlalia, anozo temaxac, anozo tequexilco:. it is placed in the anus, or the penis, or in the crotch, or in the rectum. (b.11 f.16 p.163).=20 =20 552. *itech* monequi in aquin quexilihui, anozo itech motlalia cualocatl, oncan motlalilia: in quenmanian,. it is required by one who has a swelling of the groin, or else jigger fleas are located on him, wherever they settle. (b.11 f.16 p.163).=20 =20 553. itech monequi in aquin quexilihui, anozo *itech* motlalia cualocatl, oncan motlalilia: in quenmanian,. it is required by one who has a swelling of the groin, or else jigger fleas are located on him, wherever they settle. (b.11 f.16 p.163).=20 =20 554. *itech* monequi, in aquin palani inacayo: ihuan iztac totonqui,. it is required by one whose flesh is suppurated, and for white fever. (b.11 f.16 p.164).=20 =20 555. *itech* monequi, conitinemi in ihcuac ayatle mocua, in aquin nanahuati:. one who has pustules requires it; he goes about drinking it during fasting. (b.11 f.16 p.164).=20 =20 556. in ome ei tlacatl *itech* monequi. two [or] three persons may use [one]. (b.11 f.16 p.165).=20 =20 557. in ihcuac aca miec *itech* motlalia. miec alahuac in iuhqui quiyolmalacachoa, coni tetzahuac.. when some one has much phlegm settle in him, when it seems that it will make him dizzy, he drinks it thickened. (b.11 f.16 p.165).=20 =20 558. *itech* monequi in aquin axixcocoya, axixcozahuia, axixtetzahua:. it is required by one who suffers a urine ailment; who has ycllow urine, who has dysuria. (b.11 f.16 p.166).=20 =20 559. *itech* monequi in aquin totonia inacayo:. it is required by one whose body burns. (b.11 f.16 p.166).=20 =20 560. auh yehuatl *itech* monequi in aquin omotlati, anozo papalani in inacayo;. but this is required by one who has been burned or whose body is festered. (b.11 f.16 p.167).=20 =20 561. *itech* monequi in aquin huehuei totonqui itech motlalia: ahzo pozahua, anoce tlaxhuiztli:. it is required by one on whom a high fever has settled; perhaps he has a swelling or an abscess. (b.11 f.16 p.167).=20 =20 562. itech monequi in aquin huehuei totonqui *itech* motlalia: ahzo pozahua, anoce tlaxhuiztli:. it is required by one on whom a high fever has settled; perhaps he has a swelling or an abscess. (b.11 f.16 p.167).=20 =20 563. *itech* monequi in aquin zazahuati:. it is required by one who has pimples. (b.11 f.16 p.167).=20 =20 564. paltic in *itech* motlalilia in oncan ca zahuatl.. moistened, it is placed there where the pimples are. (b.11 f.16 p.167).=20 =20 565. *itech* monequi in aquin eztli quiza iyacac, in amo huel motzacua: iyacac mochipinia,. it is required by one from whose nose blood issues; who cannot stop the dripping from his nose. (b.11 f.16 p.168).=20 =20 566. *itech* monequi; in aquin huei totonqui itech motlalia: in iuhqui iztac totonqui:. it is required by one who has contracted a high fever, such as the white fever. (b.11 f.16 p.168).=20 =20 567. itech monequi; in aquin huei totonqui *itech* motlalia: in iuhqui iztac totonqui:. it is required by one who has contracted a high fever, such as the white fever. (b.11 f.16 p.168).=20 =20 568. *itech* monequi, in aquin eztli quiza iyacac:. it is required by one who has the nosebleed. (b.11 f.16 p.169).=20 =20 569. *itech* monequi, in aquin eztli icuitlapampa quiza:. it is required by one who has blood come out of his rectum. (b.11 f.17 p.169).=20 =20 570. ihuan *itech* monequi in aquin omococoaya in mococolilochtia, anozo cihuacochi anoce oquichcochi:. and it is required by one who has been sick, when he suffers a relapse; perhaps [a man] sleeps with a woman, or [a woman] sleeps with a man. (b.11 f.17 p.170).=20 =20 571. *itech* monequi in eztli quichicha. it is required by one who spits blood. (b.11 f.17 p.170).=20 =20 572. moteci. *itech* monequi in aquin cenca quicocoa in iuhqui tetecuica ixilla: ihuan in iuhqui patzmiqui in iyollo: ihuan in icanahuacan tetecuica. ihuan in cenca huihuiyoca, papatlaca in itlalhuayo:. ground up, it is required by one who becomes very sick; his stomach seems to hurt, and his heart seems faint, and his temples throb, and his nerves tremble, quiver, exceedingly. (b.11 f.17 p.171).=20 =20 573. *itech* monequi in ahuel motzacua iiaxix: in aocmo huel quiza iaxix, huel titilini in iitic. it is required by one whose urine is completely stopped, when he can no longer urinate [and] his stomach really distends. (b.11 f.17 p.171).=20 =20 574. moteci. *itech* monequi in aquin omocaxani: in ihcuac opatiloc in oitech monec in achto ommoteneuh.. ground, it is required by one who has suffered a relapse after having been cured, when use has been made [of those herbs] first mentioned. (b.11 f.17 p.172).=20 =20 575. *itech* monequi in omaxixtzauc, ihuan omotzintzauc: ihuan in oitlacauh in toquichio in cenca ye itipozahua, aocmo huel moxixa, aocmo huel momanahuia: in cenca ye icica, in aocmo tlacua:. it is required when one's urine is stopped, and one has become constipated; and when one has harmed his manhood, when his abdomen is swollen --he can no longer urinate, he can no longer defecate; when he pants exceedingly, when he no longer eats. (b.11 f.17 p.173).=20 =20 576. moteci. *itech* monequi in aquin omotlanoquili in icamacpa, anozo icuitlapampa in itechpa neaxixtzatzacualiztli: ihuan in itipozahualiztli, ihuan in totoniliztli in titic onenca:. ground, it is required by one who has purged himself by his mouth or from his rectum; who has dysuria and a swollen abdomen, and fever is within him. (b.11 f.17 p.173).=20 =20 577. *itech* moqui in pozahua inacayo:. it is required by one whose body swells. (b.11 f.17 p.174).=20 =20 578. *itech* monequi, in aquin cihuatzintli, in cenca ic tenexihui: in za iuhqui cuauhtzintli, in omococolilochti: anozo ooquichcoch, anoce ocihuacoch.. it is required by one who is a tender woman, who hence becomes very pale, like lime, who is like a tender tree; by one whose sickness has returned; perhaps [a woman] has slept with a man or [a man] has slept with a woman. (b.11 f.17 p.174).=20 =20 579. in oquicoxonique ichcatica moquimiloa in omotez oncan ommotlalilia in huel *itech* inacayo,. when they have ground it up, that which is ground is wrapped in cotton; it is placed there right on the flesh. (b.11 f.17 p.174).=20 =20 580. *itech* monequi, in aquin ye itipozahua, in otlacocox itic:. they are required by one whose stomach swells, who has sickened internally. (b.11 f.17 p.174).=20 =20 581. *itech* monequi in aquin eztli quinoquia, in cenca totoca in icuitlapampa:. it is required by one who purges blood, when much flows from his rectum. (b.11 f.17 p.175).=20 =20 582. *itech* monequi in aquin icamac nemi totoniliztli, anozo titic:. they are required by one who has a fever in the mouth or in the abdomen. (b.11 f.17 p.176).=20 =20 583. *itech* monequi in aquin omocaxani, in omococoaya, in ahzo omotlahuitec, anozo itla etic oquinapalo, anozo ooquichcoch, anozo ocihuacoch:. it is required by one who has suffered a relapse, who has sickened; perhaps he has fallen, striking himself, or he has carried something heavy; or [a woman] has slept with a man, or [a man] has slept with a woman. (b.11 f.17 p.177).=20 =20 584. *itech* monequi, in aquin itech motlalia huei totonqui; in iuhqui iztac totonqui, in pozahua tonacayo. it is required by one who contracts a high fever, such as the white fever, when the body swells. (b.11 f.17 p.177).=20 =20 585. itech monequi, in aquin *itech* motlalia huei totonqui; in iuhqui iztac totonqui, in pozahua tonacayo. it is required by one who contracts a high fever, such as the white fever, when the body swells. (b.11 f.17 p.177).=20 =20 586. *itech* monequi in aquin omotlahuitec, in omopoztec, in anozo tlapanco ooalhuetz in oitlacauh iiomio, anozo itlalhuayo:. it is required by one who has received a blow, who has broken a bone, who perhaps has fallen from a roof terrace, who has damaged his bones or his nerves. (b.11 f.17 p.178).=20 =20 587. moteci. *itech* monequi, yiauhpohui in aquin axixtetzahua:. ground up, they are required, they make the proper drink for one who has a urinary obstruction. (b.11 f.17 p.178).=20 =20 588. moteci, *itech* monequi in aquin motlehuia, in itic nemi in totoniliztli:. ground up, they are required by one who is fevered, who has an internal fever. (b.11 f.18 p.178).=20 =20 589. in *itech* quiza iztac octli quichihua:. from it comes the white wine which they make. (b.11 f.18 p.179).=20 =20 590. *itech* monequi in aquin quicocotinemi iyelchiquiuh, tocuitlapampa, in ye ticuahuaqui,. it is required by him who goes about ailing in his chest, [or] on his back, who is already wizened. (b.11 f.18 p.179).=20 =20 591. auh in yehuatl, in chichic patli, *itech* quiza, itlaxipehuallo in huei cuahuitl, itoca chichic cuahuitl,. and this, the chichic patli, comes from the bark of a large tree named chichic quauitl. (b.11 f.18 p.179).=20 =20 592. quiza in ixiuhyo, huel tzoyoni: *itech* monequi in cihuatzintli, in ye quimati iti, in ye mixihuiznequi:. that which comes from its well-cooked foliage is required by the woman when she senses birth pains, when she is about to have a child. (b.11 f.18 p.180).=20 =20 593. *itech* monequi in aquin eztli quinoquia icuitlapampa;. it is required by one who passes blood from his rectum. (b.11 f.18 p.180).=20 =20 594. *itech* quiza in xochicualli, itoca, nochtli:. the fruit named nochtli comes from it. (b.11 f.18 p.180).=20 =20 595. no *itech* monequi coni in ye mixihuiznequi cihuatl: zan ic iciuhca mixihuiz.. it is also required [by] the woman who is about to give birth; she drinks it; she will promptly give birth. (b.11 f.18 p.181).=20 =20 596. *itech* monequi in aquin eztli quichicha in amo huel motzacua in za iuhqui totolcatinemi in huel iticpa hualquiza eztli.. it is required by one who spits blood, who cannot stop it, who just coughs constantly, whose blood comes from within. (b.11 f.18 p.181).=20 =20 597. *itech* monequi, in matlaltotonqui itech motlalia: in alahuac quipoloa toyollo,. it is required when one has contracted a high fever, when phlegm destroys the heart. (b.11 f.18 p.181).=20 =20 598. itech monequi, in matlaltotonqui *itech* motlalia: in alahuac quipoloa toyollo,. it is required when one has contracted a high fever, when phlegm destroys the heart. (b.11 f.18 p.181).=20 =20 599. *itech* monequi ic pati in aquin eztli iyacac quiza, in amo huel motzacua:. it is required as a cure by one who has the nosebleed, who cannot stop it. (b.11 f.18 p.182).=20 =20 600. *itech* monequi, in aquin totonqui itech motlalia: in inacayo pozahua,. it is required by one upon whom a fever has settled, whose body is swollen. (b.11 f.18 p.182).=20 =20 From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Oct 30 15:06:25 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 09:06:25 -0600 Subject: itech 5 Message-ID: =20 601. itech monequi, in aquin totonqui *itech* motlalia: in inacayo pozahua,. it is required by one upon whom a fever has settled, whose body is swollen. (b.11 f.18 p.182).=20 =20 602. moteci. *itech* monequi in toquichtin, anozo cihuatl, in omitlaco: in amo huel quichiuh,. ground, it is required when a man or a woman has harmed the genitals; when he cannot eject [his semen]. (b.11 f.18 p.183).=20 =20 603. intla oquichtli oitech acia: auh oquinmauhtique, anozo oquimitlacoque, in za totolcatinemi, in ye tlilehua inacayo; ihuan in ye cuahuaqui, in ye *itech* yauh inacayo: intlanel ye ce xihuitl, intlanozo ye nauhxihuitl mococoa: itech monequi,. If a man has mated with a woman and they have frightened or harmed them [in the act]; when he just goes about coughing; when already his body turns black; when already he is wizened, when already he loses flesh; even if he has been sick already one year, or perhaps already four years, it is required. (b.11 f.18 p.183).=20 =20 604. intla oquichtli oitech acia: auh oquinmauhtique, anozo oquimitlacoque, in za totolcatinemi, in ye tlilehua inacayo; ihuan in ye cuahuaqui, in ye itech yauh inacayo: intlanel ye ce xihuitl, intlanozo ye nauhxihuitl mococoa: *itech* monequi,. If a man has mated with a woman and they have frightened or harmed them [in the act]; when he just goes about coughing; when already his body turns black; when already he is wizened, when already he loses flesh; even if he has been sick already one year, or perhaps already four years, it is required. (b.11 f.18 p.183).=20 =20 605. *itech* monequi, cemixtli in tomapil tetech monequi.. one requires half a finger of it. (b.11 f.18 p.183).=20 =20 606. moteci. *itech* monequi, in aquin omitlaco, anozo omocochtemic: anozo cihuatl oquimixiuhcayecoque, anoce iciuhca otlamama:. ground up, it is required by one who has harmed his genitals or has expelled semen in his sleep, or has had intercourse with a woman [too recently] confined, or has mounted in haste. (b.11 f.18 p.184).=20 =20 607. *itech* monequi, in aquin ixtelolo quicocoa: in mitoa ixnacapachihui, in ye tlapachihuiznequi tixtelolonacatica:. it is required by one who suffers an eye ailment; by one who, it is said, has a fleshy growth over the eyes, who is about to become blind from flesh on the eyes. (b.11 f.18 p.184).=20 =20 608. *itech* monequi in aquin ic miquiznequi, amintli in amo huel motzacua: in zan hualmocuepa in atolli, in tlacualli:. it is required by one who is about to die of diarrhea, who cannot stop it, who just vomits up the atole, the food. (b.11 f.18 p.184).=20 =20 609. *itech* monequi in aqui itech catqui coatetl: ihuan in tozan potzalli:. it is required by one who has a cyst [on the throat] and a scrofula. (b.11 f.18 p.185).=20 =20 610. itech monequi in aqui *itech* catqui coatetl: ihuan in tozan potzalli:. it is required by one who has a cyst [on the throat] and a scrofula. (b.11 f.18 p.185).=20 =20 611. in centetl tlanelhuatl; miec tlacatl *itech* monequi,. the single root is required by many people. (b.11 f.18 p.185).=20 =20 612. *itech* monequi in aquin omitlaco. ihuan in aquin omotzauc in iaxix:. it is required by one whose member has been harmed, and by one whose urine is stopped. (b.11 f.18 p.185).=20 =20 613. *itech* monequi, in aquin totonie inacayo, in iuhqui tlatla quimati: anozo omocaxani:. it is required by one whose body is hot, who thinks it burns; perhaps the stomach has become unsettled. (b.11 f.19 p.187).=20 =20 614. cuahuitl, *itech* quiza itoca tepecopalcuahuitl:. it comes from a tree named tepecopalquauitl. (b.11 f.19 p.187).=20 =20 615. *itech* quiza ixica, zan ihcuac in tonalco:. it issues, it exudes only during the dry season. (b.11 f.19 p.187).=20 =20 616. ihuan in aquin pozahua inacayo; anozo huei totonqui *itech* motlalia, pani motequilia; ic iciuhca quipitzinia,. and [to treat] one whose body swells, perhaps of a high fever, [the gum] is placed thereon; it is placed on top [of the swellings], in order for them quickly to break open. (b.11 f.19 p.187).=20 =20 617. *itech* monequi, in aquin eztli quinoquia, anozo tlaelli:. it is required by one who passes blood, or a flux. (b.11 f.19 p.187).=20 =20 618. amo moteci, zan michiqui, itla *itech* tetontli.. it is not ground up; it is just abraded on some small stone. (b.11 f.19 p.188).=20 =20 619. *itech* monequi, in aquin ipan tlatlatzini, in iuhqui itech quinehua, in onontic. it is required by one on whom lightning has flashed, who is as if possessed, struck dumb. (b.11 f.19 p.188).=20 =20 620. itech monequi, in aquin ipan tlatlatzini, in iuhqui *itech* quinehua, in onontic. it is required by one on whom lightning has flashed, who is as if possessed, struck dumb. (b.11 f.19 p.188).=20 =20 621. *itech* monequi in aquin eztli quinoquia in iyacac, anozo icuitlapanpa:. it is required by one who passes blood from his nose or from his rectum. (b.11 f.19 p.189).=20 =20 622. *itech* monequi in aquin motlehuia, in totonqui itic nemi: in cenca mococoa in toyollo:. it is required by one who is fevered, who has a fever within, when he is very sick of heart. (b.11 f.19 p.189).=20 =20 623. moteci. *itech* monequi, in aquin eztli quinoquia: anozo tlailli icuitlapampa quiza, in atle huel quimonamictia pahtli:. ground, they are required by one who passes blood, or from whose rectum comes a flux, who cannot find a remedy. (b.11 f.19 p.189).=20 =20 624. ihuan in aquin *itech* quinehua, in iuhqui loco mochihua quicua ic pati.. and one who is possessed, who becomes as if deranged, eats it; thereby he recovers. (b.11 f.19 p.190).=20 =20 625. in achi mocotona, chichihualayotl in *itech* quiza.. when it is slightly cut milk comes from it. (b.11 f.19 p.197).=20 =20 626. zan no cempoalxochitl *itech* pohui,. it also belongs among the cempoalxochitl. (b.11 f.20 p.200).=20 =20 627. cuahuitl xochitl *itech* mochihua.. blossoms which grow on trees (b.11 f.20 p.201).=20 =20 628. cuauhtitech cuanmaxac in mochihua: *itech* im mochihua ahuatl.. it grows on a tree, in the tree crotch; it grows on the auatl. (b.11 f.20 p.204).=20 =20 629. in *itech* ca in xochitl, in cueponcayotl: pochquiotl, xochiamatlapalli, xochizhuatl, tecomayotl, tomioli, tomilolli, achtli, achiotl, yollotli, xochitl itzin, miahuayotl, mimiahuatl.. pertaining to the blossoming of the flower are the fattening, the petals, the calyx, the pistil, the pistils, the seed, the seed of the flower, the ovary, the receptacle, the stamen of the flower, the stamens. (b.11 f.21 p.214).=20 =20 630. auh izca in *itech* ca in cualli, in acualli. and behold the good, the evil which there is in it. (b.11 f.21 p.215).=20 =20 631. auh in amo cualli *itech* ca: in tecocoliani, quitecualtia, quiteitia atl ipan, octli ipan, tlacualli ipan quitetololtia:. and [as to] the evil which is in it: the one who hates people gives it to one to eat; he gives it to one to drink in water, in wine; he causes one to swallow it in food. (b.11 f.21 p.215).=20 =20 632. metl: in *itech* ca metl. maguey: that which pertains to maguey (b.11 f.21 p.216).=20 =20 633. in metl *itech* quiza in neuctli ihuani,. it is the maguey from which potable maguey syrup comes. (b.11 f.21 p.217).=20 =20 634. *itech* quiza in ichtli, cimaloni, tzahualoni, tilmachihualoni malinaloni, paloni, yapaloni. the maguey fibre comes from it, the kind which can be dressed, spun; from which capes are made; which can be twisted, dyed, darkened. (b.11 f.21 p.217).=20 =20 635. in metl *itech* quiza in huitztli, tlatzoponiloni, tlazohuani,. from the maguey comes the spine, the one which serves to pierce, to puncture. (b.11 f.21 p.217).=20 =20 636. inin itoca *itech* quiztica in quetzalli, ihuan itztli: ipampa in itlachializ iuhquin quetzalli, xoxoctic:. the name of this comes from quetzalli [quetzal feather] and itztli [obsidian], because its appearance is like a green quetzal feather. (b.11 f.22 p.222).=20 =20 637. inin itoca, *itech* quiza in quetzalli, niman ye chalchihuitl: ipampa ca in itlachializ, iuhquin quetzalli, inic xoxoctic, inic quiltic.. the name of this comes from quetzalli [quetzal feather], then from chalchiuitl [green stone], because its appearance is like the quetzal feather, so green, so herb-green is it. (b.11 f.22 p.223).=20 =20 638. inin xihuitl *itech* quiza in itoca xihuitl, in ixhuatoc: ipampa in itlachializ amo cenca quiltic, zan achi micqui: iuhquin amo cenca mahuizyo,. the name of this turquoise comes from the herb which lies sprouting; because its appearance is [not highly colored,] not very herb-green, just a little dull; as if it were not highly estimable. (b.11 f.22 p.223).=20 =20 639. inin itoca *itech* quiza in teotl, ihuan in xihuitl, zan quitoznequi iiaxca, itonal in teotl, ihuan, qn. cenca mahuizyo; ipampa acan cenca neci,. the name of this comes from teotl [god] and xiuitl [turquoise], which merely means that it is the property, the lot, of the god; and it means that it is much esteemed, because it does not appear anywhere very often. (b.11 f.22 p.224).=20 =20 640. in itlan in *itech* motta amo cenca mahuizyo:. when in it, when on it [something] is seen, it is not much esteemed. (b.11 f.22 p.224).=20 =20 641. inin itoca, *itech* quizqui in tlapalli, ihuan in teoxihuitl: ipampa ca zan ye huel yehuatl in teoxihuitl,. the name of this comes from tlapalli [red] and teoxiuitl [fine turquoise], because it is the same as the fine turquoise. (b.11 f.22 p.224).=20 =20 642. inin itoca *itech* quiza in eptli, ihuan yollotli: ipanpa in iuhqui itlachializ eptli, ca zan no iuhqui in itlachializ:. the name of this comes from eptli [oyster] and yollotli [heart], because its appearance is just like the appearance of the oyster. (b.11 f.22 p.224).=20 =20 643. atl *itech* onca, ihuan pozonalli in itoca: ipampa in oc ye huecauh, inic conmahuizyotique, tlaiximatinime, quitoque, ca teoatl ipopozonallo:. its name is from atl [water] and po=87onalli [bubble], because during olden times they esteemed it for the reason that those of experience said that it was the bubbles of sea water. (b.11 f.22 p.225).=20 =20 644. etlamantli in itoca inin apozonalli, *itech* mana, itech quiza in itlachializ.. the names of this amber are three, which are taken from, which come from its appearance. (b.11 f.22 p.225).=20 =20 645. etlamantli in itoca inin apozonalli, itech mana, *itech* quiza in itlachializ.. the names of this amber are three, which are taken from, which come from its appearance. (b.11 f.22 p.225).=20 =20 646. in mocemitta, iuhquinma tlemoyototonti, *itech* tzitzicuica; iuhquinma tlecuezallotl iitic icac,. when examined with care, it is as if little sparks continually fly from it, as if a flame stood within it. (b.11 f.22 p.225).=20 =20 647. iuhquin quetzalomitl, *itech* tzitzicuicatoc.. something like a quetzal feather quill spreads continually flying from it. (b.11 f.22 p.225).=20 =20 648. inin itoca, *itech* quiztica in quetzalitztli, ihuan epyollotli: ipampa in achi xoxoctic ic tlachia,. the name of this comes from quetzalitztli [emerald green jade] and epyollotli [pearl], because it looks a little green. (b.11 f.22 p.225).=20 =20 649. *itech* quiza in itoca tlilayotl, ihuan, tic, qn, iuhqui.. its name comes from tlilayotl [black water] and -tic, which means "like." (b.11 f.22 p.226).=20 =20 650. inin *itech* quiza in itoca iztac, ihuan chalchihuitl. the name of this comes from iztac [white] and chalchiuitl. (b.11 f.22 p.226).=20 =20 651. inin itoca *itech* quiza in matlali, ihuan itztli: ipanpa in itlachializ, huel iuhquin matlali, mamatlaltic, matlaltic, tetexotic, texocamiltic, texopoyahuac:. the name of this comes from matlalin [blue] and itztli [obsidian] because it is just like the blue coloring, an intense blue; blue, light blue, blue-brown, blue-tinted. (b.11 f.22 p.227).=20 =20 652. *itech* quiza in itoca xihuitl, ihuan matlali, ihuan itztli;. its name comes from xiuitl [turquoise] and matlalin [blue], and itztli [obsidian]. (b.11 f.22 p.227).=20 =20 653. auh ye huel ye on in poctli quihualyacantiuh, xoxouhqui cuahuitl, *itech* in iuhqui xiuhtototl, hualmoquetza, tlecuezallotontl= i:. and [this droplet] is [like] the smoke which comes from the end of [burning] green wood; from it a small flame stands out like [the color of] the lovely cotinga. (b.11 f.22 p.227).=20 =20 654. *itech* quizqui in itoca teotl, ihuan tetl; ipampa aoccan centetl neci, iuhquin tetl inic tliltic,. its name comes from teotl [god] and tetl [stone], because nowhere does a stone appear as black as this stone. (b.11 f.22 p.228).=20 =20 655. in eztetl *itech* quiza in itoca eztli, ihuan tetl: ipampa inic mocuicuilo in tetl, iuhquin eztli; iuhquinma ezcuahuacqui, in aocmo tlapaltic ic mocuicuilo,. the name "bloodstone" comes from eztli [blood] and tetl [stone], because the stone is mottled like blood; as if it were dried blood, mottled [with blood] no longer fresh. (b.11 f.22 p.228).=20 =20 656. in mohuitequi, tlexochtli *itech* hualquiza, tlatla, tlatlatia, tlatlecahuia, tlatlecuitia, tleyohua, tleti.. when it is struck, sparks come out from it, [which] burn, burn things, set things afire, cause things to ignite; [which] make ablaze, set flaming. (b.11 f.22 p.229).=20 =20 657. in itoca *itech* quiza in huitzitzili, ihuan tetl: ipampa in itlachieliz, iuhquinma huitzitzilin iihhuiyo, in mitoa totozcatleton.. its name comes from uitzitzilin [hummingbird] and tetl [stone], because its appearance is like the feathers of the humming bird, the one called tozcatleton. (b.11 f.22 p.229).=20 =20 658. in itlachieliz iuhquinma centzontli icpitl, *itech* moyahua xoxotla, iuhquin tlatla,. its appearance is like many fireflies; it radiates, glows; it is as if it burns. (b.11 f.22 p.229).=20 =20 659. *itech* cenquiza ca itech cenquiztica in tlapalli, in chichiltic, in xoxoctic, in xiuhtototl, in tlauhquechol, in camopalli, in tlahuitl, in quiltic. etc.. colors come constantly from it; they are constantly coming---chili-re= d, green, the color of the lovely cotinga, the color of the roseate spoonbill, purple, red, herb-green, etc. (b.11 f.22 p.230).=20 =20 660. itech cenquiza ca *itech* cenquiztica in tlapalli, in chichiltic, in xoxoctic, in xiuhtototl, in tlauhquechol, in camopalli, in tlahuitl, in quiltic. etc.. colors come constantly from it; they are constantly coming---chili-re= d, green, the color of the lovely cotinga, the color of the roseate spoonbill, purple, red, herb-green, etc. (b.11 f.22 p.230).=20 =20 661. zan tetl atle *itech* ca tliltic:. however, there is no black on it. (b.11 f.22 p.230).=20 =20 662. cequi *itech* cenquizca ca in tlapalli, yehuatl quitocayotia, quetzalatzcalli, anozo chalchiuhatzcalli:. one from which the color comes constantly they name quetzal- atzcalli or chalchiuhatzcalli. (b.11 f.22 p.230).=20 =20 663. huel mahuiztic tlamahuizoltic, ca *itech* cenquizca ca in tlapalli in chichiltic, in coztic, in xiuhtototl, in tlauhquechol, in quiltic, in ayopaltic, in camiltic, in tetzahuac tlapalli, in poyahuac,. it is really wonderful, marvelous, for from it the color comes constantly: the chili-red, the yellow, the lovely cotinga [color], the roseate spoonbill [color], the herb-green, the gourd-blossom [color], the brown, the dense color, the blended. (b.11 f.23 p.231).=20 =20 664. *itech* quiza in itoca coli, ihuan cili: ipampa ca cuappachtica motzitzicuitz, mocuicuilo, mozolcuicuilo,. its name comes from =87olin [quail] and cilin [small sea shell], because it is bespattered with a tawny color, varicolored, colored like a quail. (b.11 f.23 p.231).=20 =20 665. inin teocuitlatl in coztic, in iztac in itoca: *itech* quiza in itoca teotl, ihuan cuitlatl: ipampa in mahuiztic, in coztic, in cualli, in yectli, in tlazotli,. the name of this gold, the yellow, the white [silver] ---its name comes from teotl [god] and cuitlatl [excrement], because it is wonderful, yellow, good, fine, precious. (b.11 f.23 p.231).=20 =20 666. *itech* quizqui, in quenman cana neci tlahuizcalpan. iuhquinma apitzaltontli,. it derives from [the fact that] sometimes, in some places, there appears in the dawn something like a little bit of diarrhea. (b.11 f.23 p.231).=20 =20 667. ic neci *itech* tlaantli, i, in coztic teocuitlatl,. so it appears that [the name] gold is taken from this. (b.11 f.23 p.231).=20 =20 668. in itoca tetl, ihuan metztli *itech* onca: ipampa in quenman itto yoaltica neci, iuhquin atolli mani,. its name comes from tetl [stone] and metztli [moon], because sometimes it is seen, it appears, at night like atole resting [on the ground]. (b.11 f.23 p.234).=20 =20 669. quil icuitl in metztli, iztac tel achi cuichehuac, *itech* tlaquixtilli in itoca:. they say it is the excrement of the moon, white, but a little dark; its name is taken from this. (b.11 f.23 p.234).=20 =20 670. in metzcuitlatl *itech* quiza in itoca metztli, ihuan cuitlatl,. the name metzcuitlatl comes from metztli [moon] and cuitlatl [excrement]. (b.11 f.23 p.235).=20 =20 671. in itoca *itech* quiza in atl, ihuan mochitl: quitoznequi apopozoquillotl,. its name comes from atl [water] and mochitl: it means foam. (b.11 f.23 p.235).=20 =20 672. yehuatl in *itech* quiza in teocuitlatl, in ahzo temetztli, anozo amochitl, tlalli,. this is the earth from which the gold, or the lead, or the tin comes. (b.11 f.23 p.235).=20 =20 673. nochtli *itech* quiza in itoca, ihuan eztli, yehica nopaltitech in mochihua: auh iuhquin eztli, iuhquin eztecocoli,. its name comes from nochtli [opuntia] and eztli - [blood], because it is formed on the nopal and is like blood, like a blood blister. (b.11 f.23 p.238).=20 =20 674. *itech* quiza in itoca tlacuahuac, ihuan tlapalli: ipampa ca cenca cualli chicahuac, ixtlapaltic, ixtlapalihui huel chichiltic, huel eztic; iuhquin xoxouhqui eztli,. its name comes from tlaquauac [dry] and tlapalli [color], because it is very good, firm, vivid --a vivid color; a real chili-red, very much like blood, like fresh blood. (b.11 f.23 p.238).=20 =20 675. in itoca *itech* onca tlapalli, ihuan nextli: ipampa ca zan ye yehuatl, in nocheztli, tlachihualli, zan tlanello,. its name is from tlapalli [color] and nextli [ashes], because this same cochineal is a preparation, just a mixture. (b.11 f.23 p.238).=20 =20 676. in zazan nocheztli, in nochtli, in cualoni, nopalli, *itech* quiza, no tlapalnextli motocayotia,. the inferior cochineal, which comes from a tuna, an edible nopal, is also named tlapalnextli. (b.11 f.23 p.240).=20 =20 677. inin itoca *itech* quiza xochitl, ihuan tlapalli; iuhquin quitoznequi, xochitl, tlapaloni.. the name of this comes from xochitl [flower] and tlapalli [color]; it is as if to say "flower which dyes." (b.11 f.23 p.240).=20 =20 678. zacatl, ihuan tlaxcalli, *itech* quiztica in itoca: ipampa iuhquin zacatl mohuihuicoma,. its name comes from =87acatl [grass] and tlaxcalli [tortilla], because [the plant] climbs like grass. (b.11 f.23 p.240).=20 =20 679. in *itech* quiza coztic,. yellow comes from it. (b.11 f.23 p.240).=20 =20 680. in *itech* quiza zacatlaxcalli.. from it comes light yellow. (b.11 f.23 p.240).=20 =20 681. huitztli, ihuan cuahuitl: *itech* quiza in itoca. its name comes from uitztli [thorn] and quauitl [tree]. (b.11 f.23 p.241).=20 =20 682. in itoca *itech* quiztica nacaztli, ihuan colotl, quitoznequi iuhquin nacaztontli, colochtontli, copiltontli,. its name comes from nacaztli [ear] and colotl [hook]; that is to say, it is like a small ear, a small hook, a small miter. (b.11 f.23 p.241).=20 =20 683. in itoca *itech* quiztica tetl, ihuan cozauhqui. qn. tetl coztic, coztic tetl. its name comes from tetl [stone] and co=87auhqui [yellow]; that is, it is a yellow stone; yellow in the form of a stone. (b.11 f.23 p.242).=20 =20 684. in itoca *itech* quiza in tlalli, ihuan ihyac: ipampa ca tlalli, ca tepetlatl cacayacatica.. its name comes from tlalli [earth] and ihyac [stinking], because it is an earth; it is tepetate; it is tufaceous. (b.11 f.23 p.243).=20 =20 685. in itoca *itech* mitoa tlalli, ihuan xocotl: ipampa ca tlalli, tetepetlatic, tetequixquitic: auh inic xocotl, ca xococ, xocopatic,. its name is said [from] tlalli [earth] and xocotl [sour fruit], because it is an earth like tepetate, like saltpeter; and as for xocotl, it is sour, very sour. (b.11 f.23 p.243).=20 =20 686. in itoca *itech* quiztica tetl, ihuan tlilli: ipampa ca tetl tlacuahuac, auh tliltic, tlilpatic: auh inic itech onca tezcatl; ipampa pepetlaca.. its name comes from tetl [rock] and tlilli [black], because it is a hard rock, and black, very black; and from tezcatl [mirror], because it glistens. (b.11 f.23 p.243).=20 =20 687. in itoca itech quiztica tetl, ihuan tlilli: ipampa ca tetl tlacuahuac, auh tliltic, tlilpatic: auh inic *itech* onca tezcatl; ipampa pepetlaca.. its name comes from tetl [rock] and tlilli [black], because it is a hard rock, and black, very black; and from tezcatl [mirror], because it glistens. (b.11 f.23 p.243).=20 =20 688. in itoca, tetl, *itech* quiza, ihuan tizatl: ipampa ca tetl,. its name comes from tetl [rock] and ti=87atl [chalk], because it is a rock. (b.11 f.23 p.244).=20 =20 689. in itoca, *itech* quiztica yiauhtli, anozo yayauhqui, ihuan tlapalli, iuhquin quitoznequi yayactic, yiauhtic tlapalli,. its name comes from yauhtli [wormwood] or yayauhqui [dark] and tlapalli [color]. (b.11 f.24 p.244).=20 =20 690. cencan poyahuac in coztic *itech* neci.. the yellow which thus appears is very dark. (b.11 f.24 p.244).=20 =20 691. in itoca, *itech* quiztica in quilitl, ihuan tic, quitoznequi: iuhquin quilitl,. its name comes from quilitl [herb] and -tic, that is, like an herb. (b.11 f.24 p.245).=20 =20 692. in itoca huitztli *itech* quiztica, ihuan tecolli: iuhquin quitoznequi huitzcuahuitl, tecoltic, camiltic.. its name comes from uitztli [thorn] and tecolli [charcoal], as if to say carbonized, brownish brazilwood. (b.11 f.24 p.245).=20 =20 693. in itoca, *itech* quiztica cuahuitl, ihuan pachtli: yehica ca in ipachio cuahuitl, in no itto ca cuappachtli,. its name comes from quauitl [tree] and pachtli [spanish moss], because the spanish moss is of a tree which is also called quappachtli. (b.11 f.24 p.245).=20 =20 694. in itoca cuappachtli, anozo yehuatl in cuauhtepoztli, *itech* quiza. the name of that from which it comes is quappachtli, or the quauhtepoztli tree. (b.11 f.24 p.245).=20 =20 695. in ye huecauhtlaca, in nican nueva espa=A4a tlaca, momatia, ihuan iuhqui neltocaya, ca in ilhuicatl, zan iuhquinma calli, nohuiyampa tlaczaticac: auh *itech* acitoc in atl,. the people of old, the people here of new spain, thought and took as truth that the heavens were just like a house; it stood resting in every direction, and it extended reaching to the water. (b.11 f.24 p.247).=20 =20 696. iuhquinma acaltechtli, *itech* motlatzoa:. it was as if the water walls were joined to it. (b.11 f.24 p.247).=20 =20 697. auh ic quitocayotique ilhuicaatl, yehica ca *itech* acitimani in ilhuicatl.. and hence they called it "water which reaches the heavens," because it stretched extending to the heavens. (b.11 f.24 p.247).=20 =20 698. in itoca, *itech* quiztica in atl, ihuan totoca, iuhquin quitoznequi, atl totocani:. its name comes from atl [water] and totoca [it runs]; as if to say "running water." (b.11 f.24 p.247).=20 =20 699. ca iiaxca, ca *itech* quiza in teotl, in itoca, chalchiuhtli icue:. they are the property of, they issue from the goddess named chachiuhtli icue. (b.11 f.24 p.247).=20 =20 700. tetitech tlalli, *itech* huelia,. on rocks, on land it improves. (b.11 f.24 p.248).=20 =20 701. in itoca, *itech* ca in chiconahui, ihuan atl: ipanpa chiconauhcan in moloni, in meya,. its name is in chicunaui [nine] and atl [water], because it gushes, it flows out in nine places. (b.11 f.24 p.248).=20 =20 702. in itoca, *itech* mitotica quetzalli ihuan atl: ipampa chipahuac matlaltic. matlalayohtic:. its name is from quetzalli [precious feather] and atl [water]; because it is clear, dark green, gourd-green. (b.11 f.24 p.248).=20 =20 703. in itoca, *itech* quiztica in tecuani, ihuan atl. ipampa cenca tecuayo.. its name comes from tequani [man-eater] and atl [water], because it has many man-eating animals. (b.11 f.24 p.248).=20 =20 704. in itoca *itech* ca in altepetl tollan, ihuan atl: ipampa ca iitic in quizticac in altepetl tollan,. its name is from the city of tollan and atl [water], because it passes within the city of tollan. (b.11 f.24 p.249).=20 =20 705. in itoca, *itech* quiztica nextli, ihuan atl: ipampa tetzahuac, ticehuac, iuhquin nextli, tlapalli. its name comes from nextli [ashes] and atl [water], because it is thick, chalky; like ashes is the color. (b.11 f.24 p.249).=20 =20 706. in itoca, *itech* quiztica totoli, ihuan atl: ipampa quilmach oncan imatliyan catca, in cuauhtotolme in oc tzihuactla, necuametla,. its name comes from totolin [bird] and atl [water], because, it is said, there was the drinking place of the wild birds, those still in the cacti, in the palms. (b.11 f.24 p.249).=20 =20 707. in itoca *itech* quiztica tetzahuitl, ihuan atl: ipampa zan iquin in quiztiuh: ihuan cenca temamauhti,. its name comes from tetzauitl [omen] and atl [water], because it flows only at times, and it terrifies people greatly. (b.11 f.24 p.249).=20 =20 708. in itoca, *itech* mitoa in pinahuiztli, ihuan atl: ipampa in ihcuac ayac ipan quiza, in ayac quipanahuia totocaticac:. its name is said from pinauiztli [shame] and atl [water], because when no one crosses over it, when no one passes over it, it continues to run. (b.11 f.24 p.249).=20 =20 709. in itoca *itech* quiztica in atl, ihuan meya:. its name comes from atl [water] and meya [it flows]. (b.11 f.24 p.249).=20 =20 710. *itech* quiztica in itoca atl, ihuan pitzahuac, quitoznequi, pitzahuaticac atoyatl,. its name comes from atl [water] and pitzauac [thin]; that is, a river which is narrow. (b.11 f.24 p.250).=20 =20 711. in itoca *itech* ca xalli, ihuan atl:. its name is from xalli [sand] and atl [water]. (b.11 f.24 p.250).=20 =20 712. in itoca *itech* quiza in atl, ihuan maitl:. its name comes from atl [water] and maitl [arm]. (b.11 f.24 p.250).=20 =20 713. *itech* quiztica in itoca atl, ihuan tlamanalli, anozo mani:. its name comes from atl [water] and tlamanalli [something flat placed on the ground], or mani [it lies flat]. (b.11 f.24 p.250).=20 =20 714. in itoca *itech* quiza in chapoli, ihuan atl: ipanpa ca chapoltepetl itzintlan in meya, in moloni,. its name comes from chapulin [locust] and atl [water], because water flows, wells up from the base of chapultepetl. (b.11 f.24 p.250).=20 =20 715. in itoca *itech* quiza in atl, ihuan comoltic,. its name comes from atl [water] and comoltic [pitted]. (b.11 f.24 p.250).=20 =20 716. in itoca *itech* ca in atl, ihuan xoxouhqui:. its name is from atl [water] and xoxouhqui [green]. (b.11 f.24 p.251).=20 =20 717. in itoca *itech* quiztica in atl, ihuan totoca, quitoznequi, hualatococ tlalcoztli, xalatoctli,. its name comes from atl [water] and totoca [it runs]; that is, water-borne yellow soil, water-borne sand. (b.11 f.24 p.251).=20 =20 718. in itoca *itech* quiztica in cuahuitl, ihuan tlalli:. its name comes from quauitl [wood] and tlalli [earth]. (b.11 f.24 p.251).=20 =20 719. *itech* mitotica tlalli ihuan coztic: ipampa ixcoztic, cualli, yectli, tlamochihuani, tlaaquillo, temachtli.. it is named from tlalli [earth] and coztic [yellow], because yellow soil is good, fine, fertile, fruitful, esteemed. (b.11 f.24 p.251).=20 =20 720. in itoca *itech* quiza in tlalli, ihuan tlacohualli:. its name comes from tlalli [earth] and tlacoualli [something bought]. (b.11 f.24 p.251).=20 =20 721. *itech* mitotica micqui, ihuan tlalli:. it is named from micqui [dead person] and tlalli [earth]. (b.11 f.24 p.251).=20 =20 722. *itech* mitotica in itoca xalli ihuan tlalli: ipampa in xallo, in xalpitzahuacayo,. it is [so] called from xalli [sand ] and tlalli [earth] because it is sandy, of fine sand. (b.11 f.24 p.251).=20 =20 723. *itech* quiztica in itoca tetl, ihuan zoquitl: ipampa ca tlacuahuac, tzictic, tepitztic, cuichehuac, tlilehuac, chapopotic,. its name comes from tetl [rock] and =87oquitl [mud], because it is firm, gummy, hard; dark, blackish, bitumen-like. (b.11 f.24 p.252).=20 =20 724. *itech* quiztica in itoca calli, ihuan tlalli:. its name comes from calli [house] and tlalli [earth]. (b.11 f.24 p.252).=20 =20 725. *itech* quiztica in itoca tlalli, ihuan manqui qn. tlalli amo tliltic, amo no comoltic,. its name comes from tlalli [earth] and manqui [level]; that is to say, land neither hilly nor hollowed. (b.11 f.24 p.252).=20 =20 726. *itech* mitoa in itoca atl, ihuan tlalli:. its name is [so] called from atl [water] and tlalli [earth]. (b.11 f.24 p.252).=20 =20 727. tetl *itech* quiza: in tetzotzonqui. it comes from the rocks, the crushed rocks. (b.11 f.24 p.253).=20 =20 728. *itech* mitoa in itoca chiahua, ihuan tlalli. its name is [so] called from chiaua [it becomes soggy] and tlalli [land]. (b.11 f.24 p.253).=20 =20 729. atle huel *itech* mochihua. nothing can be grown on it. (b.11 f.24 p.254).=20 =20 730. *itech* quiztica in itoca tlalli, ihuan tlaiztalilli, quitoznequi iztac tlalli,. its name comes from tlalli [earth] and tlaiztalli [something white]; that is to say, white earth. (b.11 f.24 p.254).=20 =20 731. tezontli, ihuan tlalli: *itech* quiztica in itoca,. its name comes from te=87ontli [porous volcanic rock] and tlalli [earth]. (b.11 f.24 p.254).=20 =20 732. teuhtli, ihuan tlalli, *itech* quiza in itoca,. its name comes from teuhtli [dust] and tlalli [earth]. (b.11 f.25 p.255).=20 =20 733. in itoca *itech* quiza in atl, ihuan tizatl,. its name comes from atl [water] and ti=87atl [chalk]. (b.11 f.25 p.255).=20 =20 734. atle huel *itech* mochihua, zan ixquich xamitl, mochihua, ihuan tizatl mocuepa,. nothing can be done with it; only adobes are made, and it turns into chalk. (b.11 f.25 p.255).=20 =20 735. comitl *itech* quiztica, ihuan tlalli: ipampa (comitl) mochihua caxitl, apaztli. etc.. [lts name] comes from comitl [olla] and tlalli [earth], because [with it ollas] are made; bowls, basins, etc. (b.11 f.25 p.256).=20 =20 736. *itech* quiztica atl, ihuan zoquitl:. [its name] comes from atl [water] and =87oquitl [mud]. (b.11 f.25 p.257).=20 =20 737. tlacayo, *itech* onohuac.. It is peopled; it is dwelt upon. (b.11 f.25 p.259).=20 =20 738. ihuan yehuatl quitoznequi, in *itech* zaliuhtica huei tepetl, in no panquiztica, in noce huilantoc.. and this means that which is adhering to the large mountain which also is towering above it, or else lies reaching outward. (b.11 f.25 p.261).=20 =20 739. inic chicuei parrapho: *itech* tlatoa, in itlatlamantiliz in zazo quenami otli.. eighth paragraph, which telleth of the different kinds of roads of all sorts. (b.11 f.25 p.266).=20 =20 740. quinmacato tlazotilmatli, tlazotlanqui, zan huel *itech* itilma in moteuczoma, in aoc ac oc ce quiquemi,. they went to offer them precious capes, precious goods: indeed capes pertaining to moctezuma alone, which no one else wore. (b.12 f.1 p.5).=20 =20 741. izcatqui ic *itech* amacizque in toteucyo,. behold wherewith you will arrive [before] our lord." (b.12 f.1 p.10).=20 =20 742. inic nauhtlamantli zan ye no yehuatl in itlatqui catca quetzalcoatl, ye ne centlamantli: ocelocopilli, coxoliyo; hueitepol in chalchihuitl iicpac ca ic cuatzauctica; ihuan xiuhnacochtli, malacachtic, *itech* pilcatica teocuitlaepcololli; ihuan chalchiuhcozcapetlatl, zan no teocuitlacomalli in inepantla mantia; ihuan tilmatli tentlapallo inic molpia;. fourth, what likewise was the array of this quetzalcoatl was yet another thing: a peaked ocelot skin cap with pheasant feathers; a very large green stone at the top, fixed at the tip; and round, turquoise [mosaic] earplugs, from which were hanging curved, golden seashells; and a plaited green stone neck band in the midst of which there was also a golden disc; and a cape with a red border which was tied on; (b.12 f.1 p.12).=20 =20 743. zan no teocuitlacoyolli in icxi *itech* monequia: ihuan chimalli teocuitlatica itixapo, quetzaltenzouhqui, no quetzalpanyo: ihuan hecaxonecuilli, cuacoltic, iztac chalchihuitl inic citlallotoc ihuan ipozolcac.. likewise, the golden shells required for his ankles; and a shield with a golden disc in the center, and spread quetzal feathers along its [lower] rim, also with a quetzal feather flag; and the curved staff of the wind god, hooked at the top, overspread with white green stone stars; and his foam sandals. (b.12 f.1 p.12).=20 =20 744. ommatoctique, *itech* onacito in imacal, itech compachoque in imacal.. they betook themselves to the water; they went to reach the [spaniards'] boat; they approached their boat. (b.12 f.1 p.13).=20 =20 745. ommatoctique, itech onacito in imacal, *itech* compachoque in imacal.. they betook themselves to the water; they went to reach the [spaniards'] boat; they approached their boat. (b.12 f.1 p.13).=20 =20 746. huel yehuatl conaquique in xiuhcoaxayacatl, *itech* yetiuh in quetzalapanecayotl, ihuan itech yeyetiuh, itech aactiuh, itech pipilcatiuh chalchiuhcoanacochtli:. they put him into the turquoise [mosaic] serpent mask with which went the quetzal feather head fan, and with which went, with which were inserted, with which went suspended the green stone serpent earplugs. (b.12 f.1 p.15).=20 =20 747. huel yehuatl conaquique in xiuhcoaxayacatl, itech yetiuh in quetzalapanecayotl, ihuan *itech* yeyetiuh, itech aactiuh, itech pipilcatiuh chalchiuhcoanacochtli:. they put him into the turquoise [mosaic] serpent mask with which went the quetzal feather head fan, and with which went, with which were inserted, with which went suspended the green stone serpent earplugs. (b.12 f.1 p.15).=20 =20 748. huel yehuatl conaquique in xiuhcoaxayacatl, itech yetiuh in quetzalapanecayotl, ihuan itech yeyetiuh, *itech* aactiuh, itech pipilcatiuh chalchiuhcoanacochtli:. they put him into the turquoise [mosaic] serpent mask with which went the quetzal feather head fan, and with which went, with which were inserted, with which went suspended the green stone serpent earplugs. (b.12 f.1 p.15).=20 =20 749. huel yehuatl conaquique in xiuhcoaxayacatl, itech yetiuh in quetzalapanecayotl, ihuan itech yeyetiuh, itech aactiuh, *itech* pipilcatiuh chalchiuhcoanacochtli:. they put him into the turquoise [mosaic] serpent mask with which went the quetzal feather head fan, and with which went, with which were inserted, with which went suspended the green stone serpent earplugs. (b.12 f.1 p.15).=20 =20 750. quitoque inin ca amo totech monequia in tiquittazque, ca ye *itech* monequia quittaz in moteuczoma, in otiquittaque:. they said: "this was in no way for us to see; it was for moctezuma to see what we have seen. (b.12 f.2 p.34).=20 =20 751. auh tel amo ic xiccahualo, maco in ixquich *itech* monequi in cualoni, in ihualoni, ihuan in atl, in mazatlacualli.. but nevertheless he was not therefore neglected;i he was given all that he required --food, drink, and water [and] fodder for the deer. (b.12 f.3 p.45).=20 =20 752. niman ye ic tlaixcolehualo in *itech* chimalli in teocuitlatl: ihuan in itech in ixquich tlahuiztli:. thereupon was detached the gold which was on the shields and which was on all the devices. (b.12 f.3 p.48).=20 =20 753. niman ye ic tlaixcolehualo in itech chimalli in teocuitlatl: ihuan in *itech* in ixquich tlahuiztli:. thereupon was detached the gold which was on the shields and which was on all the devices. (b.12 f.3 p.48).=20 =20 754. niman ye ic hui in huel itlatlatiaya moteuczoma in ompa mopia in huel *itech* iaxca in moteuczoma: itocayocan totocalco. thereupon they went to moctezuma's own storehouse, where was kept moctezuma's own property, a place called totocalco. (b.12 f.3 p.48).=20 =20 755. auh in icoanacoch *itech* pipilcac in huitznahuayotl, teocuitlatl xoxopiltic, tlaxoxopiltectli,. and from the serpent ear plug hung the golden ring of thorns, with toes --cut in the form of toes. (b.12 f.3 p.52).=20 =20 756. no *itech* pilcaya motenehua huitznahuayotl, ixtlan tlatlaan:. also from it hung what was called the thorn ring, painted with diagonal stripes. (b.12 f.3 p.52).=20 =20 757. niman ye ic in tozpololli icuexcochtlan in contlalilia *itech* pilcac tziuhcuexpalli,. thereupon they set in place upon the back of his head a ball of yellow parrot feathers from which hung a child's lcck of hair. (b.12 f.3 p.52).=20 =20 758. coyotomitl in tlahuipantli, ihuan *itech* pilcatica amatl tlaxoxotlalli.. it was arranged of (strips of) coyote fur, and from it was hanging paper cut in strips. (b.12 f.4 p.53).=20 =20 759. in quinnamiquito: niman ic hualquizque *itech*. when they went contending against them, they then drew near to them. (b.12 f.6 p.86).=20 =20 760. auh in tiacahuan *itech* yetiquizque, atlan quinnemitique, quintetepachoque:. and the brave warriors quickly went at him; they made [the spaniards] go into the water; they repeatedly cast stones at them. (b.12 f.7 p.100).=20 =20 761. ayaxcan in quimoncaltechpachoto in oc ce acalotli *itech* in amaxac icac.. with difficulty they went to shelter them by another canal which was in amaxac. (b.12 f.7 p.110).=20