From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Wed Sep 1 22:52:14 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:52:14 -0600 Subject: Sahagun Conference - Chicago Message-ID: Sahag=FAn Quincentennial Symposium October 15-16, 1999 Newberry Library This two-day symposium will honor the life and work of Franciscan friar, Bernardino de Sahag=FAn (1499-1590). Sahag=FAn's work stands as a written legacy of an intellectual effort without parallel. In collaboration with native informants, scribes, and artists, Sahag=FAn compiled a multi-volume work on preconquest religion, life, and language concerning preconquest life in the Valley of Mexico.=20 Scholars from diverse disciplines including linguistics, theology, history, ethnohistory and art history will gather at the Newberry Library to discuss the impact of Sahag=FAn work in three half-day sessions, The Historical Context of Sahag=FAn in Spain and the Americas, Sahag=FAn's Cultural and Historical Manuscripts and Sahag=FAn Cultural and Linguistic Works. Miguel Le=F3n Portilla will deliver the keynote address on Friday evening. In addition, the Newberry Library's excellent collection of Sahag=FAn documents will be on display. =20 The symposium will be followed by a one-day workshop for teachers to be hosted on the University of Chicago campus in late October. Participants: Ellen Baird, University of Illinois at Chicago, Elizabeth Boone, Tulane University, Thomas Bremer, Princeton University, David Boruchoff, McGill University, Walden Browne, Independent Scholar, Louise Burkhart, State University of New York at Albany, Tom Cummins, University of Chicago, Pablo Escalante Gonzalbo, Universidad Nacional Aut=F3noma de M=E9xico, John Fleming, Princeton University, Diana Margaloni, Universidad Nacional Aut=F3noma de M=E9xico/Yale University, H.B. Nicholson, University = of California, Los Angeles, Tamar Herzog, University of Chicago, Francisco Morales, Franciscan Scholar, Instituto Franciscano de Filosof=EDa y Teolog= =EDa, Jeanette Peterson, University of California, Santa Barbara, Miguel Le=F3n Portilla, Universidad Nacional Aut=F3noma de M=E9xico, Susan Schroeder, Tula= ne University, John Frederick Schwaller, Academy of American Franciscan= History. *** For more information please contact: For more details email us at: =20 Center for Latin American Studies clas at uchicago.edu University of Chicago 5848 S. University Avenue =09 Chicago, IL 60637 =09 773-702-8420 o 773-702-1755 fax =09 Generously funded by: The Academy of American Franciscan History, the Center for Renaissance Studies, Newberry Library through funding from Loyola University, the University of Illinois at Chicago and the University of Chicago, the Franke Institute for the Humanities, the Instituto Cervantes, the US Department of Education, Title VI/NRC Program and the William and Flora Hewlett= Foundation.=20 =09 John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From liedo at stones.com Thu Sep 2 01:10:28 1999 From: liedo at stones.com (Horacio Liedo) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:10:28 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: Hola Listeros: Can anybody there write me what does PIPILA means in Nahuatl or Tarasco, please? Thank you in advance Saludos Horacio Liedo From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Thu Sep 2 18:04:13 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:04:13 -0600 Subject: Sahagun Conference papers Message-ID: Information on the Sahag=FAn Symposium, Newberry Library, Chicago, 15-16 October, 1999. The event is free and open to the public. Please find below the current program agenda (final revisions pending). We would be very grateful if you could forward the information to other interested parties. =20 BERNARDINO DE SAHAG=DAN: SPAIN AND AMERICA, 1499-1999 OCTOBER 15-16, 1999 AGENDA October 15, 1999 Newberry Library, 60 West Walton Street 9:00 am - 5:00 pm Viewing of Sahag=FAn manuscripts throughout the day. Opening Remarks Tom Cummins, University of Chicago Morning Session: The Historical Context of Sahag=FAn in Spain and the Americas The Historia General of Bernardino de Sahag=FAn and the Genres of Franciscan Literature John Fleming, Princeton University Sahag=FAn and the Disintegration of Medieval Structures of Knowledge Walden Browne, University of Arizona TitleTBA Elizabeth Boone, Tulane University Tracking the Sahag=FAn Legacy: Collections and Repositories John Frederick Schwaller, Academy of American Franciscan History Commentary Tamar Herzog, University of Chicago Afternoon Session: Sahag=FAn's Cultural and Historical Manuscripts Sahag=FAn and the Representation of History Ellen Baird, University of Illinois, Chicago Visualizing the Nahua/Christian Dialogue: Images of the Conquest and their Sources Diana Magaloni, Universidad Nacional Aut=F3noma de M=E9xico/Yale University Crafting the Self: The Arts in the Florentine Codex Jeanette Peterson, University of California, Santa Barbara The Painters of Sahag=FAn's Manuscripts: Mediators between Two Worlds Pablo Escalante Gonzalbo, Universidad Nacional Aut=F3noma de M=E9xico Sahag=FAn's Itemization of the Structures of the Templo Mayor Precint of Mexico Tenochtitlan: "Legend" of a Lost Diagram? H.B. Nicholson, University of California, Los Angeles Commentary Tom Cummins, University of Chicago 6:00 pm - 8:00 pm Reception and Keynote Address Instituto Cervantes, John Hancock Center, 875 North Michigan Avenue, Suite 2940 Keynote Address (followed by a reception) Bernardino de Sahag=FAn: Pioneer of Anthropology Miguel Le=F3n Portilla, Universidad Nacional Aut=F3noma de M=E9xico *** October 16, 1999 Newberry Library, 60 West Walton Street 9:00 am - 12:00 pm Final Session: Sahag=FAn's Theological and Linguistic Works Sahag=FAn and the Imagination of Inter-religious Dialogues Thomas Bremer, Princeton University On the Margins of Legitimacy: Sahag=FAn's *Psalmodia* and the Latin Liturgy Louise Burkhart, State University of New York at Albany Sahag=FAn and the Theology of Missionary Life David Boruchoff, McGill University Theological Framework of Sahag=FAn's *Doctrina Christiana* in the Coloquios of 1524 Francisco Morales, Instituto Franciscano de Filosof=EDa y Teolog=EDa Commentary Susan Schroeder, Tulane University John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From bardahl at infosel.net.mx Wed Sep 8 09:15:57 1999 From: bardahl at infosel.net.mx (Jorge de Buen) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 03:15:57 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: Horacio Liedo wrote: > Hola Listeros: > > Can anybody there write me what does PIPILA means in Nahuatl or Tarasco, > please? > Thank you in advance > Saludos > Horacio Liedo Tijuana, B. C., 8 de septiembre de 1999. Guajolote (turkey) Jorge de Buen U. bardahl at infosel.net.mx Tijuana, M�xico From karttu at nantucket.net Wed Sep 8 11:33:04 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 05:33:04 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: >Horacio Liedo wrote: > >> Hola Listeros: >> >> Can anybody there write me what does PIPILA means in Nahuatl or Tarasco, >> please? >> Thank you in advance >> Saludos >> Horacio Liedo > >Tijuana, B. C., 8 de septiembre de 1999. > >Guajolote (turkey) > >Jorge de Buen U. >bardahl at infosel.net.mx >Tijuana, M=C8xico Eh? I think we are dealing here with the Nahuatl place name Pipillan < pipil+tla= n. The pipiltin (pi:pil-tin) were the nobility. The placename would probably refer to a place with palaces. =46ran From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Wed Sep 8 16:42:49 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:42:49 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: Pipila with an accent on the first syllable, was the name (nom de guerre) of the hero of the siege of Guanajuato during the War of Independence. According to the Porrua Historical dictionary his real name was Juan Jose Martinez. He was born in San Miguel de Allende in 1782. A miner, he joined the Hidalgo forces early on. On Sept. 28, 1810 he led the attack on the Alondiga in Guanajuato. Carrying a burning torch, with a large wooden plank over his back, he put fire to the main door of the warehouse, thus allowing the insurgents to gain entry and attack the defending Spanish forces within. There is nothing to assume that his nickname was a Nahuatl name. The accent on the first syllable would also be curious for Nahuatl. J. F. Schwaller John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From cberry at cinenet.net Wed Sep 8 18:07:18 1999 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:07:18 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Frances Karttunen wrote: > The pipiltin (pi:pil-tin) were the nobility. The placename would probably > refer to a place with palaces. I've always adored the nearly exact equivalence between the Nahua 'pipiltin' = sons (of someone important) and the Spanish 'hidalgo', a contraction of "hijo de algo" -- the son of someone (important). -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "There it is; take it." - William Mulholland From karttu at nantucket.net Wed Sep 8 18:57:39 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:57:39 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: There is another sense of "pipil"--namely speakers of a variety of Nahuatl (or a sister language, if you want to take that route) spoken in Central America. I think the sense is the same: people of lineage. It's possible that (pi:)pil- derives from the verb piloa: and literally has to do with being a dependent, or depending from/hanging off a lineage (a tla:camecatl, literally a 'person rope' and often pictorially represented as a twisted cord). Not so very surprising that two societies with such strict class structure as the Spanish world and the Aztec world would have similar concepts of who is important and how that importance is assigned (through heritage and service). Fran From jburnham at ou.edu Wed Sep 8 23:42:47 1999 From: jburnham at ou.edu (Jeff Burnham) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:42:47 -0600 Subject: (Fwd) Friends of Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan Message-ID: ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Self To: nahuatl-l at listserv.umt.edu Subject: Friends of Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan Reply-to: jburnham at ou.edu Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:24:42 CST Friends, I am posting this message to get back in touch with my Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan friends. This April I came to the University of Oklahoma Press as acquisitions editor for Native American and Latin American Studies. I would love to hear from old friends, and make some new ones. I'd be interested to know what projects you are working on, and any writing plans you might have. You can reach me by e-mail at jburnham at ou.edu, call toll-free 1-877-294-1233, or write to the address below. I look forward to hearing from you, and perhaps seeing you at an upcoming conference. Check out the University of Oklahoma Press website, www.ou.edu/oupress for more information on our Nahuatl and Aztec publications, and more. Sorry, I don't have anything to add to the Pipil discussion! Sincerely, Jeff Jeff Burnham Acquisitions Editor Native American & Latin American Studies University of Oklahoma Press Phone: (405)325-2734/tollfree (877)294-1233 E-mail: jburnham at ou.edu From jburnham at ou.edu Wed Sep 8 23:58:35 1999 From: jburnham at ou.edu (Jeff Burnham) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:58:35 -0600 Subject: Friends of Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan Message-ID: Friends, In April I came to the University of Oklahoma Press as acquisitions editor for Native American and Latin American Studies. I would love to hear from old friends, and make some new ones. I'd be interested to know what projects you are working on, and any writing plans you might have. You can reach me by e-mail at jburnham at ou.edu, call toll-free 1-877-294-1233, or write to the address below. I look forward to hearing from you, and maybe seeing you at an upcoming conference. In the meantime, check out the University of Oklahoma Press website at www.ou.edu/oupress for more information on our Nahuatl and Aztec publications, and more. Sincerely, Jeff Burnham Jeff Burnham Acquisitions Editor Native American & Latin American Studies University of Oklahoma Press Phone: (405)325-2734/tollfree (877)294-1233 E-mail: jburnham at ou.edu From micc at home.com Thu Sep 9 03:23:17 1999 From: micc at home.com (micc) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:23:17 -0600 Subject: (Fwd) Friends of Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan Message-ID: Tlein i'tohua moyollo? this is Mario Aguilar from chula Vista, CA I always asked for you at Gallup, but I heard you were busy. I will write later!!! mario Jeff Burnham wrote: > > ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > From: Self > To: nahuatl-l at listserv.umt.edu > Subject: Friends of Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan > Reply-to: jburnham at ou.edu > Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:24:42 CST > > Friends, > > I am posting this message to get back in touch with my Nahuatl > and Uto-Aztecan friends. This April I came to the University of > Oklahoma Press as acquisitions editor for Native American and Latin > American Studies. > > I would love to hear from old friends, and make some new ones. I'd > be interested to know what projects you are working on, and any > writing plans you might have. > > You can reach me by e-mail at jburnham at ou.edu, call toll-free > 1-877-294-1233, or write to the address below. I look forward to > hearing from you, and perhaps seeing you at an upcoming conference. > > Check out the University of Oklahoma Press website, > www.ou.edu/oupress for more information on our Nahuatl and Aztec > publications, and more. > > Sorry, I don't have anything to add to the Pipil discussion! > > Sincerely, > > Jeff > Jeff Burnham > Acquisitions Editor > Native American & Latin American Studies > University of Oklahoma Press > Phone: (405)325-2734/tollfree (877)294-1233 > E-mail: jburnham at ou.edu From jburnham at ou.edu Thu Sep 9 13:11:57 1999 From: jburnham at ou.edu (Jeff Burnham) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 07:11:57 -0600 Subject: (Fwd) Friends of Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan Message-ID: Mario, Wow, the power of the net! It is great to hear from you. Let's keep in touch. Saludos Jeff > Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:25:39 -0600 > Reply-to: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > From: micc > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: (Fwd) Friends of Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan > Tlein i'tohua moyollo? > > > this is Mario Aguilar from chula Vista, CA > > I always asked for you at Gallup, but I heard you were busy. > > > I will write later!!! > > > mario > > Jeff Burnham wrote: > > > > ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > > From: Self > > To: nahuatl-l at listserv.umt.edu > > Subject: Friends of Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan > > Reply-to: jburnham at ou.edu > > Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:24:42 CST > > > > Friends, > > > > I am posting this message to get back in touch with my Nahuatl > > and Uto-Aztecan friends. This April I came to the University of > > Oklahoma Press as acquisitions editor for Native American and Latin > > American Studies. > > > > I would love to hear from old friends, and make some new ones. I'd > > be interested to know what projects you are working on, and any > > writing plans you might have. > > > > You can reach me by e-mail at jburnham at ou.edu, call toll-free > > 1-877-294-1233, or write to the address below. I look forward to > > hearing from you, and perhaps seeing you at an upcoming conference. > > > > Check out the University of Oklahoma Press website, > > www.ou.edu/oupress for more information on our Nahuatl and Aztec > > publications, and more. > > > > Sorry, I don't have anything to add to the Pipil discussion! > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Jeff > > Jeff Burnham > > Acquisitions Editor > > Native American & Latin American Studies > > University of Oklahoma Press > > Phone: (405)325-2734/tollfree (877)294-1233 > > E-mail: jburnham at ou.edu > Jeff Burnham Acquisitions Editor Native American & Latin American Studies University of Oklahoma Press Phone: (405)325-2734/tollfree (877)294-1233 E-mail: jburnham at ou.edu From mdmorris at indiana.edu Thu Sep 9 21:56:10 1999 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 15:56:10 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl and music Message-ID: I apologize for having deleted the original message of this inquiry. The information I can share on the topic is: 1. The Florentine Codice gives a nice description of different Mesoamerican musical instruments such as the teponaztli 2. The state of Tlaxcala has a CD "Carnaval Tlaxcala" for sale that features the state's traditional music and includes singing in Nahuatl 3. The Archives of Traditional Music in Bloomington, IN have recordings made in Sonsonate, El Salvador in 1965 that include some songs with Nahuat lyrics San ixquich, Sincerely Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of Hysteri, Indiana Univ. From mikegaby at hotmail.com Thu Sep 9 22:15:29 1999 From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:15:29 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: Would that then mean that the "Pipil" people of Nicaragua are named the noble ones (or something like that)? Thanks, Mike Gaby >From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: PIPILA >Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 05:33:23 -0600 > > >Horacio Liedo wrote: > > > >> Hola Listeros: > >> > >> Can anybody there write me what does PIPILA means in Nahuatl or >Tarasco, > >> please? > >> Thank you in advance > >> Saludos > >> Horacio Liedo > > > >Tijuana, B. C., 8 de septiembre de 1999. > > > >Guajolote (turkey) > > > >Jorge de Buen U. > >bardahl at infosel.net.mx > >Tijuana, M=C8xico > > >Eh? > >I think we are dealing here with the Nahuatl place name Pipillan < >pipil+tla= >n. > >The pipiltin (pi:pil-tin) were the nobility. The placename would probably >refer to a place with palaces. > >=46ran > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Sep 10 01:55:41 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 19:55:41 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: I think the common sense of pipiltin as 'nobles' and the Pipil of Central America (who speak a closely related language) is something like 'offspring of a lineage.' That might or might not imply nobility. Maybe for the Central Mexicans it did, but not necessarily for the Central Americans. We should try to find out what Lyle Campbell thinks. He wrote a major grammatical description of Pipil. Fran From dfrye at umich.edu Fri Sep 10 03:08:41 1999 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 21:08:41 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: There is unanimity among Mexican dictionaries that pipila (accent on the first i -- pardon my primitive email) means "female turkey," with a secondary meaning of "prostitute." E.g. Santamaria's Diccionario de mexicanismos: "f. La hembra del guajolote. 2. fig. Mujer publica." Also in the online "Diccionario de Regionalismos de la Lengua Espanola" (http://www.hispanicus.com/diccionario/): "pipila (Mejico): Pava, hembra del guajolote. Prostituta." Santamaria also has a shorter entry for the male version, pipilo (accent still on first syllable): "el guajolotito tierno." The Dictionary of Chicano Spanish has a sexual slang meaning for this as well: "gigolo; effeminate man; male homosexual." Santamaria derives pipila from Nahuatl pipilpipil, defined (Molina) as "muchachuelos," i.e. children, kids. Interestingly, since I rarely heard pipila in rural San Luis Potosi but rather cocono and cocona as the common words for young turkeys, I looked up the latter and found that Santamaria derived it from Nahuatl cocone, which is the plural of conetl, ni~no (child). I.e. two common Mexican words for "turkey"(singular) would derive from Nahuatl words for "children" (plural). I suppose you could hypothesize that Nahuatl-speakers referred to the gaggles of turkey chicks in the plural as "children" and Spanish-speakers Spanished those words as "pipila" and "cocono", misunderstanding plural for singular. Not the first (or last) time that's happened. Another intriguing link here lies in the general word for turkey, guajolote (in Mexican Spanish) or huehxolotl (in Nahuatl). Francis Kartunnen notes that the second element of this word echoes xolotl, "page, male servant (paje, mozo, criado, esclavo)," though "there is no obvious connection in sense." But maybe there is a connection? The secondary, figurative sense of guajolote is "bobo, sandio, necio, tonto" -- obvious enough if you've ever been around turkeys, but also similar to the Spanish (and Nahuatl, I wonder?) view of "mozos," whether we're talking about male servants or about children. I'm reminded of the Cuban mother who reprimands her wayward son by calling him "guanajo!" (Cuban Spanish for guajolote). David Frye, University of Michigan (dfrye at umich.edu) From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Sep 10 05:43:16 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:43:16 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl and music Message-ID: Mark, Is there any truth to the rumor that there is a forthcoming CD in Tlaxcalan Nahuatl by the guitar and vocal duo of M. Morris and R. Nava? It will be enthusiastically received by Tlaxcala, Mexico, USA, and by Paul and Art. |8-<) |8-<) Joe On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Mark David Morris wrote: > I apologize for having deleted the original message of this inquiry. The > information I can share on the topic is: > > 1. The Florentine Codice gives a nice description of different > Mesoamerican musical instruments such as the teponaztli > > 2. The state of Tlaxcala has a CD "Carnaval Tlaxcala" for sale that > features the state's traditional music and includes singing in Nahuatl > > 3. The Archives of Traditional Music in Bloomington, IN have recordings > made in Sonsonate, El Salvador in 1965 that include some songs with Nahuat > lyrics > > San ixquich, > > Sincerely > Mark Morris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more > grief. Eccl 1:18 > > To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To > regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we > are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not > sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 > > MDM, PhD Candidate > Dept. of Hysteri, Indiana Univ. > > From ted at teddanger.com Sat Sep 11 16:09:48 1999 From: ted at teddanger.com (Ted Danger) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 10:09:48 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: Hello Horacio, After weeks of research at the IHAH library, Wendy Griffin, our anthropological adviser determined that the indians that once flourished in the NE Honduran "Ciudad Blanca Archaeological Reserve" where the Pipil. From what little I know, they were indeed nobility from Mexico. With the abundant Quetzalcoatl effigies on the massive ceremonial metates and the precision of their work with this very hard igneous rock, I would have consider them master artisans. The few remaining Pech folk in the region are quick to offer a cup of "chocolate". How does one contact Lyle Campbell or an authority on the Pipil of Nicaragua? I'm still working on a film, as soon as my fever breaks. Regards, Ted Danger http://www.roatanet.com/ciudadblanca Frances Karttunen wrote: > I think the common sense of pipiltin as 'nobles' and the Pipil of Central > America (who speak a closely related language) is something like 'offspring > of a lineage.' That might or might not imply nobility. Maybe for the > Central Mexicans it did, but not necessarily for the Central Americans. > > We should try to find out what Lyle Campbell thinks. He wrote a major > grammatical description of Pipil. > > Fran From William.Bright at Colorado.EDU Sun Sep 12 22:32:11 1999 From: William.Bright at Colorado.EDU (BRIGHT WILLIAM) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:32:11 -0600 Subject: (Fwd) Friends of Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan Message-ID: hi jeff; glad to hear about your new position. i've worked on a variety of amerind languages - including nahuatl and some other uto-aztecan - and i've refereed books for U/OK Press several times in the past; so i'll be glad to do likewise in the future. regards; bill From GESX1CKAH at aol.com Mon Sep 13 03:03:47 1999 From: GESX1CKAH at aol.com (GESX1CKAH at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:03:47 -0600 Subject: I need a Nahualt greeting! Message-ID: I'm doing a presentation weds. and i would like to begin with a nahuatl greeting such as: good evening etc... any suggestions thanks jessica From GESX1CKAH at aol.com Mon Sep 13 03:06:43 1999 From: GESX1CKAH at aol.com (GESX1CKAH at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:06:43 -0600 Subject: ALSO a closing! Message-ID: I forgot to ask for your help in using a closing such as thank you good night etc thanks again jessica From William.Bright at Colorado.EDU Mon Sep 13 16:14:25 1999 From: William.Bright at Colorado.EDU (William Bright) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:14:25 -0600 Subject: *poc-tzin ? Message-ID: estimados nahuatlatos; i'm interested in contact and borrowing between nahuatl and other languages, including spanish as well as native american tongues. the new mexico spanish dictionary by rube'n cobos lists PUNCHE as a word for tobacco, and i'd like to find its origin. the *diccionario de mejicanismos* by santamari'a lists the word as meaning a kind of "mermelada", used in puebla; this doesn't seem very helpful. it occurs to me that PUNCHE could be from a possible nahuatl word *POC-TZIN "little smoke", diminutive of POC-TLI "smoke". however, i can't find *POC-TZIN in any nahuatl dictionary available to me. have any of you run across such a word? or can you suggest any other origin for PUNCHE? thanks and all best; bill bright William Bright (Editor, Language in Society; Written Language & Literacy; Oxford Studies in Anthropological Linguistics; Native American Place-names of the United States) 1625 Mariposa Ave. Boulder, CO 80302 Phone 303-444-4274 Fax 303-413-0017 Email William.Bright at Colorado.Edu From kread at condor.depaul.edu Mon Sep 13 16:29:51 1999 From: kread at condor.depaul.edu (Kay A. Read) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:29:51 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: Hello, One of the best sources on the Pipil of Central America still is a book by William R. Fowler Jr., "The Cultural Evolution of Ancient Nahua Civilizations," University of Oklahoma Press (1989). I can't remember where Fowler is located, but the press would know. Kay Read At 10:12 AM 9/11/99 -0600, you wrote: >Hello Horacio, > After weeks of research at the IHAH library, Wendy Griffin, our >anthropological adviser determined that the indians that once flourished in the >NE Honduran "Ciudad Blanca Archaeological Reserve" where the Pipil. From what >little I know, they were indeed nobility from Mexico. With the abundant >Quetzalcoatl effigies on the massive ceremonial metates and the precision of >their work with this very hard igneous rock, I would have consider them master >artisans. The few remaining Pech folk in the region are quick to offer a cup >of "chocolate". > How does one contact Lyle Campbell or an authority on the Pipil of >Nicaragua? I'm still working on a film, as soon as my fever breaks. >Regards, >Ted Danger >http://www.roatanet.com/ciudadblanca > >Frances Karttunen wrote: > >> I think the common sense of pipiltin as 'nobles' and the Pipil of Central >> America (who speak a closely related language) is something like 'offspring >> of a lineage.' That might or might not imply nobility. Maybe for the >> Central Mexicans it did, but not necessarily for the Central Americans. >> >> We should try to find out what Lyle Campbell thinks. He wrote a major >> grammatical description of Pipil. >> >> Fran > > > From jburnham at ou.edu Mon Sep 13 17:10:00 1999 From: jburnham at ou.edu (Jeff Burnham) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:10:00 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: Friends of Nahuatl, William Fowler, Jr., author of the University of Oklahoma title mentioned below, is in the anthropology department at Vanderbilt University. Best, Jeff Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:32:22 -0600 > Reply-to: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > From: "Kay A. Read" > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: PIPILA > Hello, > > One of the best sources on the Pipil of Central America still is a book by > William R. Fowler Jr., "The Cultural Evolution of Ancient Nahua > Civilizations," University of Oklahoma Press (1989). I can't remember > where Fowler is located, but the press would know. > > Kay Read > > > At 10:12 AM 9/11/99 -0600, you wrote: > >Hello Horacio, > > After weeks of research at the IHAH library, Wendy Griffin, our > >anthropological adviser determined that the indians that once flourished > in the > >NE Honduran "Ciudad Blanca Archaeological Reserve" where the Pipil. From what > >little I know, they were indeed nobility from Mexico. With the abundant > >Quetzalcoatl effigies on the massive ceremonial metates and the precision of > >their work with this very hard igneous rock, I would have consider them master > >artisans. The few remaining Pech folk in the region are quick to offer a cup > >of "chocolate". > > How does one contact Lyle Campbell or an authority on the Pipil of > >Nicaragua? I'm still working on a film, as soon as my fever breaks. > >Regards, > >Ted Danger > >http://www.roatanet.com/ciudadblanca > > > >Frances Karttunen wrote: > > > >> I think the common sense of pipiltin as 'nobles' and the Pipil of Central > >> America (who speak a closely related language) is something like 'offspring > >> of a lineage.' That might or might not imply nobility. Maybe for the > >> Central Mexicans it did, but not necessarily for the Central Americans. > >> > >> We should try to find out what Lyle Campbell thinks. He wrote a major > >> grammatical description of Pipil. > >> > >> Fran > > > > > > > > Jeff Burnham Acquisitions Editor Native American & Latin American Studies University of Oklahoma Press Phone: (405)325-2734/tollfree (877)294-1233 E-mail: jburnham at ou.edu From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Mon Sep 13 17:32:47 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:32:47 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: Bill Fowler, the editor of Ancient Mesoamerica, is in the Department of Anthropology at Vanderbilt. J. F. Schwaller John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From mdmorris at indiana.edu Mon Sep 13 17:35:43 1999 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:35:43 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl and music Message-ID: Tlahzo mahuis tlacatl R. Joe Campbell, Quemah, nozo macamo timati necuicaliz in Refugio yhuan zan timohuehcahua Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of Hysteri, Indiana Univ. From kread at condor.depaul.edu Mon Sep 13 20:15:03 1999 From: kread at condor.depaul.edu (Kay A. Read) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:15:03 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: Great! I knew someone would know. Thanks! Kay Read At 11:34 AM 9/13/99 -0600, you wrote: >Bill Fowler, the editor of Ancient Mesoamerica, is in the Department of >Anthropology at Vanderbilt. > >J. F. Schwaller > > >John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu >Associate Provost 406-243-4722 >The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 > http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From TruBluPooh at aol.com Tue Sep 14 03:11:44 1999 From: TruBluPooh at aol.com (TruBluPooh at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 21:11:44 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl and music Message-ID: In a message dated 9/13/99 1:36:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 mdmorris at indiana.edu writes: << Tlahzo mahuis tlacatl R. Joe Campbell, =20 Quemah, nozo macamo timati necuicaliz in Refugio yhuan zan timohuehcahua =20 Mark=20 >> I have no idea what the above text means. It's probably something very=20 simple. But reading it and trying to pronounce is sheer joy. It's so=20 pretty, I can only dream to hear it spoken aloud. No tengo ninguna idea qu=E9 significa el texto antedicho. Es probablemente a= lgo=20 muy simple. Pero el leer y el intentar a pronunciarlo es alegr=EDa escarpad= a.=20 Es tan bonita, nom=E1s puedo so=F1ar de oir la hablada en voz alta.=20 From xikano_1 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 15 20:45:04 1999 From: xikano_1 at hotmail.com (XiKano *) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:45:04 -0600 Subject: TRANSLATION METHODOLOGY Message-ID: To All, I apologize for using this list for this request but I don't know where else to ask. Perhaps someone does, here goes ... I need a document translated from spanish to english. What do you think is the best way? It's pretty technical. The original is in german. Do you think it's better to translate the german to english? I can obtain the german IF it will make difference. I suppose it makes a difference if the spanish is a poor translation, but I don't know spanish to determine this. It's about 8 pages long. I heard there are "on-line" translators. Thanks, -XiKano ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From cberry at cinenet.net Wed Sep 15 21:31:17 1999 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 15:31:17 -0600 Subject: TRANSLATION METHODOLOGY Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, XiKano * wrote: > I need a document translated from spanish to english. What do you think > is the best way? It's pretty technical. The original is in german. Do > you think it's better to translate the german to english? I can obtain > the german IF it will make difference. Every translation involves changes in meaning, so by all means go to the German source document rather than a Spanish translation. (I am reminded of the old joke about the English phrase "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak" being successively translated into a dozen languages and back to English, where it arrives as "The wine is good, but the meat has spoiled.") > I suppose it makes a difference if the spanish is a > poor translation, but I don't know spanish to determine this. You'd need to know both German and Spanish to determine this, of course. But a poor translation just accelerates the meaning-corruption process; a good translation doesn't eliminate it. Consider, to move on topic for a moment, the translation of 'atepetl' as 'town'; it's accurate as far as it goes, but it entirely drops the imagistic 'water-and-hill' which would more or less subliminally be parsed in the original Nahuatl, and color the conception of what a town is and requires. Then imagine translating it into Spanish as 'pueblo', which similarly drops the physical parameters while adding (for a Spanish speaker) rich implications about a political and social group along with the particular cluster of buildings they inhabit. Short version: Translation is *hard*, and never even close to perfect. > I heard there are "on-line" translators. These are currently just past the toy stage. You can use them to get a basic idea about what a document has to say, but doing so requires glossing over many fairly hideous (and frequently hysterical) lapses. For example, that preceding paragraph, rendered in Spanish by Babelfish (babelfish.altavista.com), becomes: Istos son actualmente pasado justo la etapa del juguete. Usted puede utilizarlos para conseguir una idea basica sobre un qui documento tiene que decir, pero el hacer asm que requiere lustrar conclumdo muchos lapsos bastante horribles (y con frecuencia hysterical). (Some of the diacritical letters got messed up during my copy-and-paste, but I'm sure it's readable.) Taking that and translating back to English again yields: These are at the moment right past the stage of the toy. You can use them to obtain a basic idea on what document must say, but doing so it requires to lustrar conclumdo many quite horrible lapses (and frequently hysterical). ..which isn't a bad job, as such tools go. The sense is there more or less intact, but I think you'll agree it would be hard to read an entire 8-page paper written that way. And often the meaning itself gets far more distorted, or lost entirely. Best of luck! -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "There it is; take it." - William Mulholland From lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr Thu Sep 16 15:10:23 1999 From: lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr (Patrick LESBRE) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:10:23 -0600 Subject: Mexica gardens Message-ID: Dear Friend, I only read this message as far as middle of september. If you still enquiring on prehispanic garden and zoo you can find good evidences in SAHAGUN (and many spanish relations of Conquest describing Moctezuma's gardens) and in HERNANDEZ. He quote a painting of a bird in Tezcoco royal palace. Cordialement At 10:59 20/07/99 -0600, vous avez =E9crit: >And there were (I have heard it said) more generally >botanic gardens far in advance of Linnaeus in Europe, >and what we should call a "zoo", >in which those animals which for reasons of climate >could not be kept in the valley of Mexico were=20 >represented by paintings. =20 > >What are the standard original references for these places >and what they held? Are there reports of more recent archaeological >work on the related irrigation systems which the conquistadors >or their successors destroyed? > >Lloyd Anderson >Ecological Linguistics > > ___________________ Patrick LESBRE Universit=E9 de Toulouse le Mirail 32 rue la Fonderie 31000 TOULOUSE t=E9l./fax 33(0)5 61 14 26 99 email lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr From john.keilch at ucop.edu Fri Sep 17 02:56:31 1999 From: john.keilch at ucop.edu (John Keilch) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 20:56:31 -0600 Subject: TRANSLATION METHODOLOGY Message-ID: On-line translation programs, are quite handy for getting the gist of foreign-language web sites, or for translating words or text you provide, almost instantaneously, even if they don't necessarily provide the most subtle translations. The GO Network's Translator Service web site provides quick translation for free of web sites, or of text that you enter or cut and paste. From your web browser, you can translate TO or FROM English and the following languages: Spanish, French, German, Italian and Portuguese. There is a limit of a page or so of how much text you can enter at a time. For longer documents, other versions of Systran's translation software are available for purchase from this site. Web site: http://www.translation.go.com/ There is also free dictionary-like translation software available from Babylon.com and the New York Times. Babylon works as a bilingual dictionary. Once you download the software, you can check words, names, places, and expressions from a pop-up menu from within any word processor or other computer program. (From the same query menu you can also search on-line Infoseek or Encyclopedia.com.) You can download one or more of the following languages: The languages available are English, Spanish, German, Portuguese, French, Italian, Dutch, Japanese, Hebrew. Web site: http://www.babylon.com/ From dfrye at umich.edu Fri Sep 17 17:04:51 1999 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:04:51 -0600 Subject: TRANSLATION METHODOLOGY Message-ID: I couldn't restrain myself on this one. I tried out the suggested Web site: http://www.translation.go.com/ on a paragraph selected more or less at random from literature available from Project Gutenberg, the first paragraph from "A Tale of Two Cities": It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way--in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only. >>From English to Spanish and back again, this is the result: He to be better time, he to be bad weather, he to be age wisdom, he to be age insentatez, he to be time belief, he to be time incredulity, he to be station light, he to be station the dark, he to be means hope, he to be winter desperation, we to have everything before we, we to have nothing before we, we to be everything to go direct sky, we to be everything to go to direct another way -- in short circuit, period to be until now like present period, that something its noisy authority to insist on which was received, for good or badly, the superlative degree of the comparison only. Well, it got the last two words right! David Frye (with apologies to all), From marisol at tiscalinet.it Tue Sep 21 21:26:46 1999 From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 15:26:46 -0600 Subject: TRANSLATION METHODOLOGY Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BF0476.D7F9FD40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Xikano, My job is to look for freelance translators in a number of languages, evaluate their CVs, give them work, follow-up their queries and perform lexicological research in case of need, among other things (quite a job, I assure you!). In this context I came across an excellent database on the web called "Linguists on Line", where you can find freelance translators around the world who can translate from and into different languages. You are requested to select your source language, then your target language, and you are presented with a list of freelance translators whom you can contact. The address is http://www.linguists.com/home.sht However, you should bear in mind that international regulations (for example, the Association International de Traducteurs de Conference - AITC, and the U.N.) require that the target language be produced ONLY by mother-tongue translators, which means that by no reason should you rely on a translation made by someone claiming he/she knows the language perfectly well. By the same token, translation programmes and software in use by certain organizations are considered only as a "translation aid", and final versions are ALWAYS produced by professional translators. Believe me, in this field, humans are still essential, and will continue to be such for a long time! Good luck, Susana Moraleda -----Original Message----- From: XiKano * To: Multiple recipients of list Date: mercoled� 15 settembre 1999 22.48 Subject: TRANSLATION METHODOLOGY >To All, > >I apologize for using this list for this request but I don't know where else >to ask. Perhaps someone does, here goes ... > >I need a document translated from spanish to english. What do you think is >the best way? It's pretty technical. The original is in german. Do you think >it's better to translate the german to english? I can obtain the german IF >it will make difference. I suppose it makes a difference if the spanish is a >poor translation, but I don't know spanish to determine this. It's about 8 >pages long. I heard there are "on-line" translators. > >Thanks, >-XiKano > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BF0476.D7F9FD40 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Susana Moraleda.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Moraleda;Susana FN:Susana Moraleda EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it REV:19990921T191530Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BF0476.D7F9FD40-- From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Fri Sep 24 12:04:33 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (schwallr at selway.umt.edu) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 06:04:33 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl names Message-ID: I have a comilation of our various conversations on Nahuatl names on the Nahuatl web site. Point your browser to: http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/names.html J. F. Schwaller From melesan at pacbell.net Fri Sep 24 17:15:57 1999 From: melesan at pacbell.net (Mel Sanchez) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 11:15:57 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl names Message-ID: Greetings JF Schwaller, As a teacher at a high school with many immigrant students from Mexico, I at times have students with Indian names such as Xochitl, Xochiquetzal, Cuahtemoc, etc. This year I have a young lady with the name of Itzel. She assure the name is Aztec. Are you able to give me any info on this name? Thanks, Mel schwallr at selway.umt.edu wrote: > > I have a comilation of our various conversations on Nahuatl names on the > Nahuatl web site. Point your browser to: > > http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/names.html > > J. F. Schwaller From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx Wed Sep 29 14:38:54 1999 From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 08:38:54 -0600 Subject: antecessive o Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF0A5C.51E515A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I ran into a document from Seventeenth Century Nochistlan, Zacatecas = where the antecessive "o" is used frecuently with the present tense. = Does anybody have any thoughts on this? John Sullivan Doctorado en Historia Universidad Aut=F3noma de Zacatecas ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF0A5C.51E515A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I ran into a document from Seventeenth Century = Nochistlan,=20 Zacatecas where the antecessive "o" is used frecuently with the present=20 tense.  Does anybody have any thoughts on this?
    John Sullivan
    Doctorado en = Historia
    Universidad Aut=F3noma de=20 Zacatecas
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF0A5C.51E515A0-- From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Wed Sep 1 22:52:14 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:52:14 -0600 Subject: Sahagun Conference - Chicago Message-ID: Sahag=FAn Quincentennial Symposium October 15-16, 1999 Newberry Library This two-day symposium will honor the life and work of Franciscan friar, Bernardino de Sahag=FAn (1499-1590). Sahag=FAn's work stands as a written legacy of an intellectual effort without parallel. In collaboration with native informants, scribes, and artists, Sahag=FAn compiled a multi-volume work on preconquest religion, life, and language concerning preconquest life in the Valley of Mexico.=20 Scholars from diverse disciplines including linguistics, theology, history, ethnohistory and art history will gather at the Newberry Library to discuss the impact of Sahag=FAn work in three half-day sessions, The Historical Context of Sahag=FAn in Spain and the Americas, Sahag=FAn's Cultural and Historical Manuscripts and Sahag=FAn Cultural and Linguistic Works. Miguel Le=F3n Portilla will deliver the keynote address on Friday evening. In addition, the Newberry Library's excellent collection of Sahag=FAn documents will be on display. =20 The symposium will be followed by a one-day workshop for teachers to be hosted on the University of Chicago campus in late October. Participants: Ellen Baird, University of Illinois at Chicago, Elizabeth Boone, Tulane University, Thomas Bremer, Princeton University, David Boruchoff, McGill University, Walden Browne, Independent Scholar, Louise Burkhart, State University of New York at Albany, Tom Cummins, University of Chicago, Pablo Escalante Gonzalbo, Universidad Nacional Aut=F3noma de M=E9xico, John Fleming, Princeton University, Diana Margaloni, Universidad Nacional Aut=F3noma de M=E9xico/Yale University, H.B. Nicholson, University = of California, Los Angeles, Tamar Herzog, University of Chicago, Francisco Morales, Franciscan Scholar, Instituto Franciscano de Filosof=EDa y Teolog= =EDa, Jeanette Peterson, University of California, Santa Barbara, Miguel Le=F3n Portilla, Universidad Nacional Aut=F3noma de M=E9xico, Susan Schroeder, Tula= ne University, John Frederick Schwaller, Academy of American Franciscan= History. *** For more information please contact: For more details email us at: =20 Center for Latin American Studies clas at uchicago.edu University of Chicago 5848 S. University Avenue =09 Chicago, IL 60637 =09 773-702-8420 o 773-702-1755 fax =09 Generously funded by: The Academy of American Franciscan History, the Center for Renaissance Studies, Newberry Library through funding from Loyola University, the University of Illinois at Chicago and the University of Chicago, the Franke Institute for the Humanities, the Instituto Cervantes, the US Department of Education, Title VI/NRC Program and the William and Flora Hewlett= Foundation.=20 =09 John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From liedo at stones.com Thu Sep 2 01:10:28 1999 From: liedo at stones.com (Horacio Liedo) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:10:28 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: Hola Listeros: Can anybody there write me what does PIPILA means in Nahuatl or Tarasco, please? Thank you in advance Saludos Horacio Liedo From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Thu Sep 2 18:04:13 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:04:13 -0600 Subject: Sahagun Conference papers Message-ID: Information on the Sahag=FAn Symposium, Newberry Library, Chicago, 15-16 October, 1999. The event is free and open to the public. Please find below the current program agenda (final revisions pending). We would be very grateful if you could forward the information to other interested parties. =20 BERNARDINO DE SAHAG=DAN: SPAIN AND AMERICA, 1499-1999 OCTOBER 15-16, 1999 AGENDA October 15, 1999 Newberry Library, 60 West Walton Street 9:00 am - 5:00 pm Viewing of Sahag=FAn manuscripts throughout the day. Opening Remarks Tom Cummins, University of Chicago Morning Session: The Historical Context of Sahag=FAn in Spain and the Americas The Historia General of Bernardino de Sahag=FAn and the Genres of Franciscan Literature John Fleming, Princeton University Sahag=FAn and the Disintegration of Medieval Structures of Knowledge Walden Browne, University of Arizona TitleTBA Elizabeth Boone, Tulane University Tracking the Sahag=FAn Legacy: Collections and Repositories John Frederick Schwaller, Academy of American Franciscan History Commentary Tamar Herzog, University of Chicago Afternoon Session: Sahag=FAn's Cultural and Historical Manuscripts Sahag=FAn and the Representation of History Ellen Baird, University of Illinois, Chicago Visualizing the Nahua/Christian Dialogue: Images of the Conquest and their Sources Diana Magaloni, Universidad Nacional Aut=F3noma de M=E9xico/Yale University Crafting the Self: The Arts in the Florentine Codex Jeanette Peterson, University of California, Santa Barbara The Painters of Sahag=FAn's Manuscripts: Mediators between Two Worlds Pablo Escalante Gonzalbo, Universidad Nacional Aut=F3noma de M=E9xico Sahag=FAn's Itemization of the Structures of the Templo Mayor Precint of Mexico Tenochtitlan: "Legend" of a Lost Diagram? H.B. Nicholson, University of California, Los Angeles Commentary Tom Cummins, University of Chicago 6:00 pm - 8:00 pm Reception and Keynote Address Instituto Cervantes, John Hancock Center, 875 North Michigan Avenue, Suite 2940 Keynote Address (followed by a reception) Bernardino de Sahag=FAn: Pioneer of Anthropology Miguel Le=F3n Portilla, Universidad Nacional Aut=F3noma de M=E9xico *** October 16, 1999 Newberry Library, 60 West Walton Street 9:00 am - 12:00 pm Final Session: Sahag=FAn's Theological and Linguistic Works Sahag=FAn and the Imagination of Inter-religious Dialogues Thomas Bremer, Princeton University On the Margins of Legitimacy: Sahag=FAn's *Psalmodia* and the Latin Liturgy Louise Burkhart, State University of New York at Albany Sahag=FAn and the Theology of Missionary Life David Boruchoff, McGill University Theological Framework of Sahag=FAn's *Doctrina Christiana* in the Coloquios of 1524 Francisco Morales, Instituto Franciscano de Filosof=EDa y Teolog=EDa Commentary Susan Schroeder, Tulane University John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From bardahl at infosel.net.mx Wed Sep 8 09:15:57 1999 From: bardahl at infosel.net.mx (Jorge de Buen) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 03:15:57 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: Horacio Liedo wrote: > Hola Listeros: > > Can anybody there write me what does PIPILA means in Nahuatl or Tarasco, > please? > Thank you in advance > Saludos > Horacio Liedo Tijuana, B. C., 8 de septiembre de 1999. Guajolote (turkey) Jorge de Buen U. bardahl at infosel.net.mx Tijuana, M?xico From karttu at nantucket.net Wed Sep 8 11:33:04 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 05:33:04 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: >Horacio Liedo wrote: > >> Hola Listeros: >> >> Can anybody there write me what does PIPILA means in Nahuatl or Tarasco, >> please? >> Thank you in advance >> Saludos >> Horacio Liedo > >Tijuana, B. C., 8 de septiembre de 1999. > >Guajolote (turkey) > >Jorge de Buen U. >bardahl at infosel.net.mx >Tijuana, M=C8xico Eh? I think we are dealing here with the Nahuatl place name Pipillan < pipil+tla= n. The pipiltin (pi:pil-tin) were the nobility. The placename would probably refer to a place with palaces. =46ran From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Wed Sep 8 16:42:49 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:42:49 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: Pipila with an accent on the first syllable, was the name (nom de guerre) of the hero of the siege of Guanajuato during the War of Independence. According to the Porrua Historical dictionary his real name was Juan Jose Martinez. He was born in San Miguel de Allende in 1782. A miner, he joined the Hidalgo forces early on. On Sept. 28, 1810 he led the attack on the Alondiga in Guanajuato. Carrying a burning torch, with a large wooden plank over his back, he put fire to the main door of the warehouse, thus allowing the insurgents to gain entry and attack the defending Spanish forces within. There is nothing to assume that his nickname was a Nahuatl name. The accent on the first syllable would also be curious for Nahuatl. J. F. Schwaller John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From cberry at cinenet.net Wed Sep 8 18:07:18 1999 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:07:18 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Frances Karttunen wrote: > The pipiltin (pi:pil-tin) were the nobility. The placename would probably > refer to a place with palaces. I've always adored the nearly exact equivalence between the Nahua 'pipiltin' = sons (of someone important) and the Spanish 'hidalgo', a contraction of "hijo de algo" -- the son of someone (important). -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "There it is; take it." - William Mulholland From karttu at nantucket.net Wed Sep 8 18:57:39 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:57:39 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: There is another sense of "pipil"--namely speakers of a variety of Nahuatl (or a sister language, if you want to take that route) spoken in Central America. I think the sense is the same: people of lineage. It's possible that (pi:)pil- derives from the verb piloa: and literally has to do with being a dependent, or depending from/hanging off a lineage (a tla:camecatl, literally a 'person rope' and often pictorially represented as a twisted cord). Not so very surprising that two societies with such strict class structure as the Spanish world and the Aztec world would have similar concepts of who is important and how that importance is assigned (through heritage and service). Fran From jburnham at ou.edu Wed Sep 8 23:42:47 1999 From: jburnham at ou.edu (Jeff Burnham) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:42:47 -0600 Subject: (Fwd) Friends of Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan Message-ID: ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Self To: nahuatl-l at listserv.umt.edu Subject: Friends of Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan Reply-to: jburnham at ou.edu Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:24:42 CST Friends, I am posting this message to get back in touch with my Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan friends. This April I came to the University of Oklahoma Press as acquisitions editor for Native American and Latin American Studies. I would love to hear from old friends, and make some new ones. I'd be interested to know what projects you are working on, and any writing plans you might have. You can reach me by e-mail at jburnham at ou.edu, call toll-free 1-877-294-1233, or write to the address below. I look forward to hearing from you, and perhaps seeing you at an upcoming conference. Check out the University of Oklahoma Press website, www.ou.edu/oupress for more information on our Nahuatl and Aztec publications, and more. Sorry, I don't have anything to add to the Pipil discussion! Sincerely, Jeff Jeff Burnham Acquisitions Editor Native American & Latin American Studies University of Oklahoma Press Phone: (405)325-2734/tollfree (877)294-1233 E-mail: jburnham at ou.edu From jburnham at ou.edu Wed Sep 8 23:58:35 1999 From: jburnham at ou.edu (Jeff Burnham) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:58:35 -0600 Subject: Friends of Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan Message-ID: Friends, In April I came to the University of Oklahoma Press as acquisitions editor for Native American and Latin American Studies. I would love to hear from old friends, and make some new ones. I'd be interested to know what projects you are working on, and any writing plans you might have. You can reach me by e-mail at jburnham at ou.edu, call toll-free 1-877-294-1233, or write to the address below. I look forward to hearing from you, and maybe seeing you at an upcoming conference. In the meantime, check out the University of Oklahoma Press website at www.ou.edu/oupress for more information on our Nahuatl and Aztec publications, and more. Sincerely, Jeff Burnham Jeff Burnham Acquisitions Editor Native American & Latin American Studies University of Oklahoma Press Phone: (405)325-2734/tollfree (877)294-1233 E-mail: jburnham at ou.edu From micc at home.com Thu Sep 9 03:23:17 1999 From: micc at home.com (micc) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:23:17 -0600 Subject: (Fwd) Friends of Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan Message-ID: Tlein i'tohua moyollo? this is Mario Aguilar from chula Vista, CA I always asked for you at Gallup, but I heard you were busy. I will write later!!! mario Jeff Burnham wrote: > > ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > From: Self > To: nahuatl-l at listserv.umt.edu > Subject: Friends of Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan > Reply-to: jburnham at ou.edu > Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:24:42 CST > > Friends, > > I am posting this message to get back in touch with my Nahuatl > and Uto-Aztecan friends. This April I came to the University of > Oklahoma Press as acquisitions editor for Native American and Latin > American Studies. > > I would love to hear from old friends, and make some new ones. I'd > be interested to know what projects you are working on, and any > writing plans you might have. > > You can reach me by e-mail at jburnham at ou.edu, call toll-free > 1-877-294-1233, or write to the address below. I look forward to > hearing from you, and perhaps seeing you at an upcoming conference. > > Check out the University of Oklahoma Press website, > www.ou.edu/oupress for more information on our Nahuatl and Aztec > publications, and more. > > Sorry, I don't have anything to add to the Pipil discussion! > > Sincerely, > > Jeff > Jeff Burnham > Acquisitions Editor > Native American & Latin American Studies > University of Oklahoma Press > Phone: (405)325-2734/tollfree (877)294-1233 > E-mail: jburnham at ou.edu From jburnham at ou.edu Thu Sep 9 13:11:57 1999 From: jburnham at ou.edu (Jeff Burnham) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 07:11:57 -0600 Subject: (Fwd) Friends of Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan Message-ID: Mario, Wow, the power of the net! It is great to hear from you. Let's keep in touch. Saludos Jeff > Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:25:39 -0600 > Reply-to: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > From: micc > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: (Fwd) Friends of Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan > Tlein i'tohua moyollo? > > > this is Mario Aguilar from chula Vista, CA > > I always asked for you at Gallup, but I heard you were busy. > > > I will write later!!! > > > mario > > Jeff Burnham wrote: > > > > ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > > From: Self > > To: nahuatl-l at listserv.umt.edu > > Subject: Friends of Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan > > Reply-to: jburnham at ou.edu > > Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:24:42 CST > > > > Friends, > > > > I am posting this message to get back in touch with my Nahuatl > > and Uto-Aztecan friends. This April I came to the University of > > Oklahoma Press as acquisitions editor for Native American and Latin > > American Studies. > > > > I would love to hear from old friends, and make some new ones. I'd > > be interested to know what projects you are working on, and any > > writing plans you might have. > > > > You can reach me by e-mail at jburnham at ou.edu, call toll-free > > 1-877-294-1233, or write to the address below. I look forward to > > hearing from you, and perhaps seeing you at an upcoming conference. > > > > Check out the University of Oklahoma Press website, > > www.ou.edu/oupress for more information on our Nahuatl and Aztec > > publications, and more. > > > > Sorry, I don't have anything to add to the Pipil discussion! > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Jeff > > Jeff Burnham > > Acquisitions Editor > > Native American & Latin American Studies > > University of Oklahoma Press > > Phone: (405)325-2734/tollfree (877)294-1233 > > E-mail: jburnham at ou.edu > Jeff Burnham Acquisitions Editor Native American & Latin American Studies University of Oklahoma Press Phone: (405)325-2734/tollfree (877)294-1233 E-mail: jburnham at ou.edu From mdmorris at indiana.edu Thu Sep 9 21:56:10 1999 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 15:56:10 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl and music Message-ID: I apologize for having deleted the original message of this inquiry. The information I can share on the topic is: 1. The Florentine Codice gives a nice description of different Mesoamerican musical instruments such as the teponaztli 2. The state of Tlaxcala has a CD "Carnaval Tlaxcala" for sale that features the state's traditional music and includes singing in Nahuatl 3. The Archives of Traditional Music in Bloomington, IN have recordings made in Sonsonate, El Salvador in 1965 that include some songs with Nahuat lyrics San ixquich, Sincerely Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of Hysteri, Indiana Univ. From mikegaby at hotmail.com Thu Sep 9 22:15:29 1999 From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:15:29 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: Would that then mean that the "Pipil" people of Nicaragua are named the noble ones (or something like that)? Thanks, Mike Gaby >From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: PIPILA >Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 05:33:23 -0600 > > >Horacio Liedo wrote: > > > >> Hola Listeros: > >> > >> Can anybody there write me what does PIPILA means in Nahuatl or >Tarasco, > >> please? > >> Thank you in advance > >> Saludos > >> Horacio Liedo > > > >Tijuana, B. C., 8 de septiembre de 1999. > > > >Guajolote (turkey) > > > >Jorge de Buen U. > >bardahl at infosel.net.mx > >Tijuana, M=C8xico > > >Eh? > >I think we are dealing here with the Nahuatl place name Pipillan < >pipil+tla= >n. > >The pipiltin (pi:pil-tin) were the nobility. The placename would probably >refer to a place with palaces. > >=46ran > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Sep 10 01:55:41 1999 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 19:55:41 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: I think the common sense of pipiltin as 'nobles' and the Pipil of Central America (who speak a closely related language) is something like 'offspring of a lineage.' That might or might not imply nobility. Maybe for the Central Mexicans it did, but not necessarily for the Central Americans. We should try to find out what Lyle Campbell thinks. He wrote a major grammatical description of Pipil. Fran From dfrye at umich.edu Fri Sep 10 03:08:41 1999 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 21:08:41 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: There is unanimity among Mexican dictionaries that pipila (accent on the first i -- pardon my primitive email) means "female turkey," with a secondary meaning of "prostitute." E.g. Santamaria's Diccionario de mexicanismos: "f. La hembra del guajolote. 2. fig. Mujer publica." Also in the online "Diccionario de Regionalismos de la Lengua Espanola" (http://www.hispanicus.com/diccionario/): "pipila (Mejico): Pava, hembra del guajolote. Prostituta." Santamaria also has a shorter entry for the male version, pipilo (accent still on first syllable): "el guajolotito tierno." The Dictionary of Chicano Spanish has a sexual slang meaning for this as well: "gigolo; effeminate man; male homosexual." Santamaria derives pipila from Nahuatl pipilpipil, defined (Molina) as "muchachuelos," i.e. children, kids. Interestingly, since I rarely heard pipila in rural San Luis Potosi but rather cocono and cocona as the common words for young turkeys, I looked up the latter and found that Santamaria derived it from Nahuatl cocone, which is the plural of conetl, ni~no (child). I.e. two common Mexican words for "turkey"(singular) would derive from Nahuatl words for "children" (plural). I suppose you could hypothesize that Nahuatl-speakers referred to the gaggles of turkey chicks in the plural as "children" and Spanish-speakers Spanished those words as "pipila" and "cocono", misunderstanding plural for singular. Not the first (or last) time that's happened. Another intriguing link here lies in the general word for turkey, guajolote (in Mexican Spanish) or huehxolotl (in Nahuatl). Francis Kartunnen notes that the second element of this word echoes xolotl, "page, male servant (paje, mozo, criado, esclavo)," though "there is no obvious connection in sense." But maybe there is a connection? The secondary, figurative sense of guajolote is "bobo, sandio, necio, tonto" -- obvious enough if you've ever been around turkeys, but also similar to the Spanish (and Nahuatl, I wonder?) view of "mozos," whether we're talking about male servants or about children. I'm reminded of the Cuban mother who reprimands her wayward son by calling him "guanajo!" (Cuban Spanish for guajolote). David Frye, University of Michigan (dfrye at umich.edu) From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Sep 10 05:43:16 1999 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:43:16 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl and music Message-ID: Mark, Is there any truth to the rumor that there is a forthcoming CD in Tlaxcalan Nahuatl by the guitar and vocal duo of M. Morris and R. Nava? It will be enthusiastically received by Tlaxcala, Mexico, USA, and by Paul and Art. |8-<) |8-<) Joe On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Mark David Morris wrote: > I apologize for having deleted the original message of this inquiry. The > information I can share on the topic is: > > 1. The Florentine Codice gives a nice description of different > Mesoamerican musical instruments such as the teponaztli > > 2. The state of Tlaxcala has a CD "Carnaval Tlaxcala" for sale that > features the state's traditional music and includes singing in Nahuatl > > 3. The Archives of Traditional Music in Bloomington, IN have recordings > made in Sonsonate, El Salvador in 1965 that include some songs with Nahuat > lyrics > > San ixquich, > > Sincerely > Mark Morris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more > grief. Eccl 1:18 > > To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To > regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we > are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not > sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 > > MDM, PhD Candidate > Dept. of Hysteri, Indiana Univ. > > From ted at teddanger.com Sat Sep 11 16:09:48 1999 From: ted at teddanger.com (Ted Danger) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 10:09:48 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: Hello Horacio, After weeks of research at the IHAH library, Wendy Griffin, our anthropological adviser determined that the indians that once flourished in the NE Honduran "Ciudad Blanca Archaeological Reserve" where the Pipil. From what little I know, they were indeed nobility from Mexico. With the abundant Quetzalcoatl effigies on the massive ceremonial metates and the precision of their work with this very hard igneous rock, I would have consider them master artisans. The few remaining Pech folk in the region are quick to offer a cup of "chocolate". How does one contact Lyle Campbell or an authority on the Pipil of Nicaragua? I'm still working on a film, as soon as my fever breaks. Regards, Ted Danger http://www.roatanet.com/ciudadblanca Frances Karttunen wrote: > I think the common sense of pipiltin as 'nobles' and the Pipil of Central > America (who speak a closely related language) is something like 'offspring > of a lineage.' That might or might not imply nobility. Maybe for the > Central Mexicans it did, but not necessarily for the Central Americans. > > We should try to find out what Lyle Campbell thinks. He wrote a major > grammatical description of Pipil. > > Fran From William.Bright at Colorado.EDU Sun Sep 12 22:32:11 1999 From: William.Bright at Colorado.EDU (BRIGHT WILLIAM) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:32:11 -0600 Subject: (Fwd) Friends of Nahuatl and Uto-Aztecan Message-ID: hi jeff; glad to hear about your new position. i've worked on a variety of amerind languages - including nahuatl and some other uto-aztecan - and i've refereed books for U/OK Press several times in the past; so i'll be glad to do likewise in the future. regards; bill From GESX1CKAH at aol.com Mon Sep 13 03:03:47 1999 From: GESX1CKAH at aol.com (GESX1CKAH at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:03:47 -0600 Subject: I need a Nahualt greeting! Message-ID: I'm doing a presentation weds. and i would like to begin with a nahuatl greeting such as: good evening etc... any suggestions thanks jessica From GESX1CKAH at aol.com Mon Sep 13 03:06:43 1999 From: GESX1CKAH at aol.com (GESX1CKAH at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:06:43 -0600 Subject: ALSO a closing! Message-ID: I forgot to ask for your help in using a closing such as thank you good night etc thanks again jessica From William.Bright at Colorado.EDU Mon Sep 13 16:14:25 1999 From: William.Bright at Colorado.EDU (William Bright) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:14:25 -0600 Subject: *poc-tzin ? Message-ID: estimados nahuatlatos; i'm interested in contact and borrowing between nahuatl and other languages, including spanish as well as native american tongues. the new mexico spanish dictionary by rube'n cobos lists PUNCHE as a word for tobacco, and i'd like to find its origin. the *diccionario de mejicanismos* by santamari'a lists the word as meaning a kind of "mermelada", used in puebla; this doesn't seem very helpful. it occurs to me that PUNCHE could be from a possible nahuatl word *POC-TZIN "little smoke", diminutive of POC-TLI "smoke". however, i can't find *POC-TZIN in any nahuatl dictionary available to me. have any of you run across such a word? or can you suggest any other origin for PUNCHE? thanks and all best; bill bright William Bright (Editor, Language in Society; Written Language & Literacy; Oxford Studies in Anthropological Linguistics; Native American Place-names of the United States) 1625 Mariposa Ave. Boulder, CO 80302 Phone 303-444-4274 Fax 303-413-0017 Email William.Bright at Colorado.Edu From kread at condor.depaul.edu Mon Sep 13 16:29:51 1999 From: kread at condor.depaul.edu (Kay A. Read) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:29:51 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: Hello, One of the best sources on the Pipil of Central America still is a book by William R. Fowler Jr., "The Cultural Evolution of Ancient Nahua Civilizations," University of Oklahoma Press (1989). I can't remember where Fowler is located, but the press would know. Kay Read At 10:12 AM 9/11/99 -0600, you wrote: >Hello Horacio, > After weeks of research at the IHAH library, Wendy Griffin, our >anthropological adviser determined that the indians that once flourished in the >NE Honduran "Ciudad Blanca Archaeological Reserve" where the Pipil. From what >little I know, they were indeed nobility from Mexico. With the abundant >Quetzalcoatl effigies on the massive ceremonial metates and the precision of >their work with this very hard igneous rock, I would have consider them master >artisans. The few remaining Pech folk in the region are quick to offer a cup >of "chocolate". > How does one contact Lyle Campbell or an authority on the Pipil of >Nicaragua? I'm still working on a film, as soon as my fever breaks. >Regards, >Ted Danger >http://www.roatanet.com/ciudadblanca > >Frances Karttunen wrote: > >> I think the common sense of pipiltin as 'nobles' and the Pipil of Central >> America (who speak a closely related language) is something like 'offspring >> of a lineage.' That might or might not imply nobility. Maybe for the >> Central Mexicans it did, but not necessarily for the Central Americans. >> >> We should try to find out what Lyle Campbell thinks. He wrote a major >> grammatical description of Pipil. >> >> Fran > > > From jburnham at ou.edu Mon Sep 13 17:10:00 1999 From: jburnham at ou.edu (Jeff Burnham) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:10:00 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: Friends of Nahuatl, William Fowler, Jr., author of the University of Oklahoma title mentioned below, is in the anthropology department at Vanderbilt University. Best, Jeff Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:32:22 -0600 > Reply-to: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > From: "Kay A. Read" > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: PIPILA > Hello, > > One of the best sources on the Pipil of Central America still is a book by > William R. Fowler Jr., "The Cultural Evolution of Ancient Nahua > Civilizations," University of Oklahoma Press (1989). I can't remember > where Fowler is located, but the press would know. > > Kay Read > > > At 10:12 AM 9/11/99 -0600, you wrote: > >Hello Horacio, > > After weeks of research at the IHAH library, Wendy Griffin, our > >anthropological adviser determined that the indians that once flourished > in the > >NE Honduran "Ciudad Blanca Archaeological Reserve" where the Pipil. From what > >little I know, they were indeed nobility from Mexico. With the abundant > >Quetzalcoatl effigies on the massive ceremonial metates and the precision of > >their work with this very hard igneous rock, I would have consider them master > >artisans. The few remaining Pech folk in the region are quick to offer a cup > >of "chocolate". > > How does one contact Lyle Campbell or an authority on the Pipil of > >Nicaragua? I'm still working on a film, as soon as my fever breaks. > >Regards, > >Ted Danger > >http://www.roatanet.com/ciudadblanca > > > >Frances Karttunen wrote: > > > >> I think the common sense of pipiltin as 'nobles' and the Pipil of Central > >> America (who speak a closely related language) is something like 'offspring > >> of a lineage.' That might or might not imply nobility. Maybe for the > >> Central Mexicans it did, but not necessarily for the Central Americans. > >> > >> We should try to find out what Lyle Campbell thinks. He wrote a major > >> grammatical description of Pipil. > >> > >> Fran > > > > > > > > Jeff Burnham Acquisitions Editor Native American & Latin American Studies University of Oklahoma Press Phone: (405)325-2734/tollfree (877)294-1233 E-mail: jburnham at ou.edu From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Mon Sep 13 17:32:47 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:32:47 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: Bill Fowler, the editor of Ancient Mesoamerica, is in the Department of Anthropology at Vanderbilt. J. F. Schwaller John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From mdmorris at indiana.edu Mon Sep 13 17:35:43 1999 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:35:43 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl and music Message-ID: Tlahzo mahuis tlacatl R. Joe Campbell, Quemah, nozo macamo timati necuicaliz in Refugio yhuan zan timohuehcahua Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of Hysteri, Indiana Univ. From kread at condor.depaul.edu Mon Sep 13 20:15:03 1999 From: kread at condor.depaul.edu (Kay A. Read) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:15:03 -0600 Subject: PIPILA Message-ID: Great! I knew someone would know. Thanks! Kay Read At 11:34 AM 9/13/99 -0600, you wrote: >Bill Fowler, the editor of Ancient Mesoamerica, is in the Department of >Anthropology at Vanderbilt. > >J. F. Schwaller > > >John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu >Associate Provost 406-243-4722 >The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 > http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From TruBluPooh at aol.com Tue Sep 14 03:11:44 1999 From: TruBluPooh at aol.com (TruBluPooh at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 21:11:44 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl and music Message-ID: In a message dated 9/13/99 1:36:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 mdmorris at indiana.edu writes: << Tlahzo mahuis tlacatl R. Joe Campbell, =20 Quemah, nozo macamo timati necuicaliz in Refugio yhuan zan timohuehcahua =20 Mark=20 >> I have no idea what the above text means. It's probably something very=20 simple. But reading it and trying to pronounce is sheer joy. It's so=20 pretty, I can only dream to hear it spoken aloud. No tengo ninguna idea qu=E9 significa el texto antedicho. Es probablemente a= lgo=20 muy simple. Pero el leer y el intentar a pronunciarlo es alegr=EDa escarpad= a.=20 Es tan bonita, nom=E1s puedo so=F1ar de oir la hablada en voz alta.=20 From xikano_1 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 15 20:45:04 1999 From: xikano_1 at hotmail.com (XiKano *) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:45:04 -0600 Subject: TRANSLATION METHODOLOGY Message-ID: To All, I apologize for using this list for this request but I don't know where else to ask. Perhaps someone does, here goes ... I need a document translated from spanish to english. What do you think is the best way? It's pretty technical. The original is in german. Do you think it's better to translate the german to english? I can obtain the german IF it will make difference. I suppose it makes a difference if the spanish is a poor translation, but I don't know spanish to determine this. It's about 8 pages long. I heard there are "on-line" translators. Thanks, -XiKano ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From cberry at cinenet.net Wed Sep 15 21:31:17 1999 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 15:31:17 -0600 Subject: TRANSLATION METHODOLOGY Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, XiKano * wrote: > I need a document translated from spanish to english. What do you think > is the best way? It's pretty technical. The original is in german. Do > you think it's better to translate the german to english? I can obtain > the german IF it will make difference. Every translation involves changes in meaning, so by all means go to the German source document rather than a Spanish translation. (I am reminded of the old joke about the English phrase "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak" being successively translated into a dozen languages and back to English, where it arrives as "The wine is good, but the meat has spoiled.") > I suppose it makes a difference if the spanish is a > poor translation, but I don't know spanish to determine this. You'd need to know both German and Spanish to determine this, of course. But a poor translation just accelerates the meaning-corruption process; a good translation doesn't eliminate it. Consider, to move on topic for a moment, the translation of 'atepetl' as 'town'; it's accurate as far as it goes, but it entirely drops the imagistic 'water-and-hill' which would more or less subliminally be parsed in the original Nahuatl, and color the conception of what a town is and requires. Then imagine translating it into Spanish as 'pueblo', which similarly drops the physical parameters while adding (for a Spanish speaker) rich implications about a political and social group along with the particular cluster of buildings they inhabit. Short version: Translation is *hard*, and never even close to perfect. > I heard there are "on-line" translators. These are currently just past the toy stage. You can use them to get a basic idea about what a document has to say, but doing so requires glossing over many fairly hideous (and frequently hysterical) lapses. For example, that preceding paragraph, rendered in Spanish by Babelfish (babelfish.altavista.com), becomes: Istos son actualmente pasado justo la etapa del juguete. Usted puede utilizarlos para conseguir una idea basica sobre un qui documento tiene que decir, pero el hacer asm que requiere lustrar conclumdo muchos lapsos bastante horribles (y con frecuencia hysterical). (Some of the diacritical letters got messed up during my copy-and-paste, but I'm sure it's readable.) Taking that and translating back to English again yields: These are at the moment right past the stage of the toy. You can use them to obtain a basic idea on what document must say, but doing so it requires to lustrar conclumdo many quite horrible lapses (and frequently hysterical). ..which isn't a bad job, as such tools go. The sense is there more or less intact, but I think you'll agree it would be hard to read an entire 8-page paper written that way. And often the meaning itself gets far more distorted, or lost entirely. Best of luck! -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "There it is; take it." - William Mulholland From lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr Thu Sep 16 15:10:23 1999 From: lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr (Patrick LESBRE) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:10:23 -0600 Subject: Mexica gardens Message-ID: Dear Friend, I only read this message as far as middle of september. If you still enquiring on prehispanic garden and zoo you can find good evidences in SAHAGUN (and many spanish relations of Conquest describing Moctezuma's gardens) and in HERNANDEZ. He quote a painting of a bird in Tezcoco royal palace. Cordialement At 10:59 20/07/99 -0600, vous avez =E9crit: >And there were (I have heard it said) more generally >botanic gardens far in advance of Linnaeus in Europe, >and what we should call a "zoo", >in which those animals which for reasons of climate >could not be kept in the valley of Mexico were=20 >represented by paintings. =20 > >What are the standard original references for these places >and what they held? Are there reports of more recent archaeological >work on the related irrigation systems which the conquistadors >or their successors destroyed? > >Lloyd Anderson >Ecological Linguistics > > ___________________ Patrick LESBRE Universit=E9 de Toulouse le Mirail 32 rue la Fonderie 31000 TOULOUSE t=E9l./fax 33(0)5 61 14 26 99 email lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr From john.keilch at ucop.edu Fri Sep 17 02:56:31 1999 From: john.keilch at ucop.edu (John Keilch) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 20:56:31 -0600 Subject: TRANSLATION METHODOLOGY Message-ID: On-line translation programs, are quite handy for getting the gist of foreign-language web sites, or for translating words or text you provide, almost instantaneously, even if they don't necessarily provide the most subtle translations. The GO Network's Translator Service web site provides quick translation for free of web sites, or of text that you enter or cut and paste. From your web browser, you can translate TO or FROM English and the following languages: Spanish, French, German, Italian and Portuguese. There is a limit of a page or so of how much text you can enter at a time. For longer documents, other versions of Systran's translation software are available for purchase from this site. Web site: http://www.translation.go.com/ There is also free dictionary-like translation software available from Babylon.com and the New York Times. Babylon works as a bilingual dictionary. Once you download the software, you can check words, names, places, and expressions from a pop-up menu from within any word processor or other computer program. (From the same query menu you can also search on-line Infoseek or Encyclopedia.com.) You can download one or more of the following languages: The languages available are English, Spanish, German, Portuguese, French, Italian, Dutch, Japanese, Hebrew. Web site: http://www.babylon.com/ From dfrye at umich.edu Fri Sep 17 17:04:51 1999 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:04:51 -0600 Subject: TRANSLATION METHODOLOGY Message-ID: I couldn't restrain myself on this one. I tried out the suggested Web site: http://www.translation.go.com/ on a paragraph selected more or less at random from literature available from Project Gutenberg, the first paragraph from "A Tale of Two Cities": It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way--in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only. >>From English to Spanish and back again, this is the result: He to be better time, he to be bad weather, he to be age wisdom, he to be age insentatez, he to be time belief, he to be time incredulity, he to be station light, he to be station the dark, he to be means hope, he to be winter desperation, we to have everything before we, we to have nothing before we, we to be everything to go direct sky, we to be everything to go to direct another way -- in short circuit, period to be until now like present period, that something its noisy authority to insist on which was received, for good or badly, the superlative degree of the comparison only. Well, it got the last two words right! David Frye (with apologies to all), From marisol at tiscalinet.it Tue Sep 21 21:26:46 1999 From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 15:26:46 -0600 Subject: TRANSLATION METHODOLOGY Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BF0476.D7F9FD40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Xikano, My job is to look for freelance translators in a number of languages, evaluate their CVs, give them work, follow-up their queries and perform lexicological research in case of need, among other things (quite a job, I assure you!). In this context I came across an excellent database on the web called "Linguists on Line", where you can find freelance translators around the world who can translate from and into different languages. You are requested to select your source language, then your target language, and you are presented with a list of freelance translators whom you can contact. The address is http://www.linguists.com/home.sht However, you should bear in mind that international regulations (for example, the Association International de Traducteurs de Conference - AITC, and the U.N.) require that the target language be produced ONLY by mother-tongue translators, which means that by no reason should you rely on a translation made by someone claiming he/she knows the language perfectly well. By the same token, translation programmes and software in use by certain organizations are considered only as a "translation aid", and final versions are ALWAYS produced by professional translators. Believe me, in this field, humans are still essential, and will continue to be such for a long time! Good luck, Susana Moraleda -----Original Message----- From: XiKano * To: Multiple recipients of list Date: mercoled? 15 settembre 1999 22.48 Subject: TRANSLATION METHODOLOGY >To All, > >I apologize for using this list for this request but I don't know where else >to ask. Perhaps someone does, here goes ... > >I need a document translated from spanish to english. What do you think is >the best way? It's pretty technical. The original is in german. Do you think >it's better to translate the german to english? I can obtain the german IF >it will make difference. I suppose it makes a difference if the spanish is a >poor translation, but I don't know spanish to determine this. It's about 8 >pages long. I heard there are "on-line" translators. > >Thanks, >-XiKano > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BF0476.D7F9FD40 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Susana Moraleda.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Moraleda;Susana FN:Susana Moraleda EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it REV:19990921T191530Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BF0476.D7F9FD40-- From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Fri Sep 24 12:04:33 1999 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (schwallr at selway.umt.edu) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 06:04:33 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl names Message-ID: I have a comilation of our various conversations on Nahuatl names on the Nahuatl web site. Point your browser to: http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/names.html J. F. Schwaller From melesan at pacbell.net Fri Sep 24 17:15:57 1999 From: melesan at pacbell.net (Mel Sanchez) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 11:15:57 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl names Message-ID: Greetings JF Schwaller, As a teacher at a high school with many immigrant students from Mexico, I at times have students with Indian names such as Xochitl, Xochiquetzal, Cuahtemoc, etc. This year I have a young lady with the name of Itzel. She assure the name is Aztec. Are you able to give me any info on this name? Thanks, Mel schwallr at selway.umt.edu wrote: > > I have a comilation of our various conversations on Nahuatl names on the > Nahuatl web site. Point your browser to: > > http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/names.html > > J. F. Schwaller From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx Wed Sep 29 14:38:54 1999 From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 08:38:54 -0600 Subject: antecessive o Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF0A5C.51E515A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I ran into a document from Seventeenth Century Nochistlan, Zacatecas = where the antecessive "o" is used frecuently with the present tense. = Does anybody have any thoughts on this? John Sullivan Doctorado en Historia Universidad Aut=F3noma de Zacatecas ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF0A5C.51E515A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I ran into a document from Seventeenth Century = Nochistlan,=20 Zacatecas where the antecessive "o" is used frecuently with the present=20 tense.  Does anybody have any thoughts on this?
    John Sullivan
    Doctorado en = Historia
    Universidad Aut=F3noma de=20 Zacatecas
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