From heatherhess at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  1 02:28:00 2000
From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:28:00 PST
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <FRI.31.MAR.2000.182800.PST.HEATHERHESS@HOTMAIL.COM>

is there anyone that speaks nahautl that lives in Canada!  Thanks!  Heather
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From heatherhess at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  1 02:40:57 2000
From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 19:40:57 -0700
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <FRI.31.MAR.2000.194057.0700.>

i would love to comunicate with you - i am in canada and don't know anyone
that speaks nahautl.  have you been to this village - what did you learn and
experiencE

Yolohtzin

>From: CHMuths at aol.com
>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: RE:
>Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:43:50 -0700
>
>Hi all,
>
>here is another source for learning Nahuatl:
>
>cice at cuer.laneta.apc.org.
>
>This group is in Guernava in M=E9xico. One can stay in their centre or in
>an=
>=20
>Indian village to learn the language.
>
>Are there more beginners out there? To exchange experiences etc.?
>
>Christa

______________________________________________________
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From xochiquetzal at earthlink.net  Sat Apr  1 09:11:50 2000
From: xochiquetzal at earthlink.net (Odilia Rodriguez)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 02:11:50 -0700
Subject: Those on Listproc
Message-ID: <SAT.1.APR.2000.021150.0700.>

Hey John,

I think I resubscribed last night...are you saying it didn't  go through?
Please let me know.  Thanx Odilia xochiquetzal at earthlink.net.

----------
>From: "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at selway.umt.edu>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Those on Listproc
>Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000, 11:57 AM
>

> The following people are the only ones on the old software.  If your name
> appears here, please contact me directly.  If it does not, then you are
> correctly subscribed.
>
> REFUGE at VALLECITOS.ORG
> SCHOONBOOM at YAHOO.CO.UK
> NOTOCA at HOTMAIL.COM
> FRANCISCO_BRAMBILA at YAHOO.COM
> VSBOHN at YAHOO.COM
> XOCHIQUETZAL at EARTHLINK.NET
> RHORN at UH.EDU
> RRUELAS at INFONET.COM.MX
>
>
> J. F. Schwaller
> List Owner
>
>
> John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
>


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Mon Apr  3 16:52:46 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:52:46 -0600
Subject: Nahuatl Summer Institute: Summer courses 2000
Message-ID: <MON.3.APR.2000.105246.0600.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

Council for Latin American Studies <latin.america at yale.edu>

Nahuatl Summer Institute Summer 2000

The application is also available on-line at

www.yale.edu/summer/

The beginning level intensive course will be offered from June 5, 2000-July
28, 2000.  Michel Launey who was originally scheduled to teach the last
week of the course will be unable to come.  He will be replaced by renowed
scholar, James Lockhart.

If you are planning to register please make sure to register directly with
summer programs but also please contact me as well.  I need to know how
many students are coming in order to get all course material ready.

Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions or need assistance
finding housing in the New Haven area.

Sincerely,

Beatriz Riefkohl

Council on Latin American and Iberian Studies
34 Hillhouse Avenue, Suite 340
P.O. Box 208206
New Haven, CT 06520-8206
203-432-3422
203-432-5963 fax


From refuge at vallecitos.org  Thu Apr  6 19:29:56 2000
From: refuge at vallecitos.org (Linda Velarde)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:29:56 -0600
Subject: Those on Listproc
Message-ID: <THU.6.APR.2000.132956.0600.>

please change my subscription. thank you.
linda velarde

"John F. Schwaller" wrote:
>
> The following people are the only ones on the old software.  If your name
> appears here, please contact me directly.  If it does not, then you are
> correctly subscribed.
>
> REFUGE at VALLECITOS.ORG
> SCHOONBOOM at YAHOO.CO.UK
> NOTOCA at HOTMAIL.COM
> FRANCISCO_BRAMBILA at YAHOO.COM
> VSBOHN at YAHOO.COM
> XOCHIQUETZAL at EARTHLINK.NET
> RHORN at UH.EDU
> RRUELAS at INFONET.COM.MX
>
> J. F. Schwaller
> List Owner
>
> John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Fri Apr  7 15:10:31 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:10:31 -0600
Subject: New Book
Message-ID: <FRI.7.APR.2000.091031.0600.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

I have just received word of a new book:

_Xipe Totec: Notre seigneur l'ecorche_ by Anne-Marie Vie-Wohrer
(Mexico: Centre Francais d'Etudes Mexicaines et Centroamericaines, 2000)

In French with summaries in English and Spanish

"This publication is dedicated to the analysis of the deity representation,
well known for the flaying ritual celebrated on his festival day.  The
first volume offers the method used for the pictographic study and its
application.  The second volume contains plates of pictographs gathered in
44 pre- or post- columbian manuscripts to illustrate the deciphering method"

For further infoprmation contact:
jawo at club-internet.fr  or cemca at data.net.mx


From dfrye at umich.edu  Fri Apr  7 18:30:09 2000
From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:30:09 -0400
Subject: El Dorado review
Message-ID: <FRI.7.APR.2000.143009.0400.DFRYE@UMICH.EDU>

A few weeks back the question came up of protesting or boycotting the new
cartoon movie "The Road to El Dorado." From the reviews I have seen so far
a boycott would hardly be worth the effort. Here is the review of the
movie by Stuart Klawans (in The Nation, April 24 edition):

------------------------------------------------------------

Somewhere there lives a boy who wants to grow up and join the
bus-and-truck tour of Jesus Christ Superstar. For that child, DreamWorks
has made the animated feature The Road to El Dorado.

Here's Miguel (voice of Kenneth Branagh), shoulder-length blond hair
parted in the middle, reddish beard trimmed neatly at all times, sashaying
into the South American jungle in a flowing outfit cut from the same
fabric as the soundtrack's Elton John songs. Is this 1519, as a title
proclaims, or 1973? If market research says that kiddie-film ticket-buyers
are mostly parents who are pushing 40, then you know the answer. It's time
to pump up the pop-rock and tell the animators to draw flared pants--the
kind that are favored by Tulio (voice of Kevin Kline), Miguel's bosom
companion, who pulls his dark hair back in a ponytail and wears a little
vest, as if he worked in a Buffalo Springfield cover band.

The story, copied in equal measure from Hope-Crosby Road movies and The
Man Who Would Be King, goes like this: Miguel and Tulio, a couple of
scuffling showbiz types (I mean, lovable Spanish rapscallions) come into
possession of a cryptic map to the City of Gold, El Dorado. Soon after,
they stumble into the hold of a ship full of conquistadors bound for the
New World. A brisk shipwreck later, Miguel and Tulio wash up in a place of
dense jungle and visual milange, composed of Olmec, Maya, Aztec and Disney
elements. Sure enough, our boys have found El Dorado. Now they can be
greeted as gods (in the time-honored fashion of white-men-meet-the-natives
movies), introduce democracy to Mesoamerica and bicker over the affections
of Chel (voice of Rosie Perez), the cartoon babe in the Dorothy Lamour
role.

Directed by Eric "Bibo" Bergeron and Don Paul, The Road to El Dorado
creates characters with the unmodeled, flat-plane features that uglify so
much of digital animation. As if to force expression into these figures,
the filmmakers have overcompensated by outfitting Miguel and Tulio with
broad white bands in their mouths--digital-animation dentures, you might
say--which are to be flashed at all times. Only the villain, the
priest-sorcerer Tzekel-Kan (voice of Armand Assante), has individual
teeth, a trait that makes him the film's most human-seeming figure, even
when done up in his jaguar-mask outfit.

If you are a pushing-40 parent who buys tickets to kiddie films, you may
take your charges to The Road to El Dorado in full confidence that they
will come away disapproving of human sacrifice. At least the early
seventies taught us that much.


From muyalbalam03 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  8 06:40:37 2000
From: muyalbalam03 at hotmail.com (Roberto Tirado)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 23:40:37 PDT
Subject: question about translation
Message-ID: <FRI.7.APR.2000.234037.PDT.MUYALBALAM03@HOTMAIL.COM>

  Hello.

  i have a question i hope someone can answer.

what is the nahuatl word for "thought(s)" ?

or if anyone knows, how can you translate this into nahuatl :

  " to pierce your thoughts " ?


  thank you .
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From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Mon Apr 10 14:45:34 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:45:34 -0600
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Presentaci=F3n_del_libro_de_Druzo_Maldonado?=
Message-ID: <MON.10.APR.2000.084534.0600.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

>
>EL INSTITUTO DE INVESTIGACIONES ANTROPOLÓGICAS DE LA
>UNIVERSIDAD NACIONAL AUTONOMA DE MEXICO
>Tiene el agrado de invitarle a la presentación del libro
>
>Deidades y espacio ritual en Cuauhnáhuac y Huaxtepec.
>Tlahuicas y xochimilcas de Morelos (siglos XII-XVI)
>
>de
>
>DRUZO MALDONADO JIMÉNEZ
>
>Presentarán el libro
>
>JOHANNA BRODA, ANA MARIA SALAZAR PERALTA y JESUS MONJARÁZ-RUIZ
>
>Jueves 13 de abril, a las 19:00 horas en la
>
>Casa Universitaria del Libro
>Orizaba y Puebla, Col. Roma.
>México, D.F.
>
>Vino de honor.
>
>


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk  Fri Apr 14 08:09:03 2000
From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 08:09:03 GMT
Subject: finally beginning to learn it
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.080903.GMT.MCLSSAA2@FS2.MT.UMIST.AC.UK>

Lucas Molina <lm412 at is9.nyu.edu> wrote:-
> P.S.  in case my search is fruitless, how do you pronounce /kw/ at the
> end of a word?

Likely the /w/ component was voiceless at the end of a word or before a
voiceless consonant. For e.g. {teuc}, try saying {tecui} and then gradually
get rid of the /i/ sound without letting the /w/ become a vowel /u/.


From muyalbalam03 at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 14 08:48:15 2000
From: muyalbalam03 at hotmail.com (Roberto Tirado)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 01:48:15 PDT
Subject: can anyone translate this....
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.014815.PDT.MUYALBALAM03@HOTMAIL.COM>

"to pierce or touch the sky of your thoughts"

i would really appreciate anyones help .


- Roberto
muyalbalam03 at hotmail.com
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From gingeriw at stjohns.edu  Fri Apr 14 21:18:23 2000
From: gingeriw at stjohns.edu (Gingerich Willard P.)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:18:23 -0600
Subject: pipila
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.151823.0600.>

Listeros:
I'll take advantage of this (relative) lull on the list to ask about a word
that came up almost a year ago:  pipil.

Near the opening of the Ms. of 1558 (aka Leyenda de los soles), the
informant says of the destruction of the proto-people of the 3rd "sun":
   auh inic polliuhque tlequiahuilloque totolme mocuepque.   . . . inic
polliuhque pipiltin catca ye ica in axcan ic monotza cocone pipilpipil --

Lehmann translates (in German of course) "And thus they went to ruin:  they
were covered by the rain of fire; they turned themselves into chickens.  .
. . those who went to ruin this way, they were the pipiltin  (boys, knaves,
or princes, sovereigns).  That is why even to this day children are called
'Pipilpipil' (i.e., boys, knaves)"--and he provides a footnote on "pilli"
and on the Pipil of Central America.
Velazquez translates, "se volvieron gallinas.  . . . fueron pipiltin
(ninos);  por eso ahora se llama a los ninos pipilpipil (muchachitos)".
Bierhorst translates, "They were changed into turkeys.   . . . And when
they died they were children.  Therefore today they are called the baby
children".

I could never understand how a foundation myth, which has a clear
etiological function in all its versions, would want to say that a
generation (if we can call them that) of proto-people had been transformed
into our own, normal children, or, by implication, that all our children
come from the third age.  Such a translation seemed to contradict the
burden of the narrative itself ("our" present condition of human normality
derives from the fifth creation; the derivatives of other "suns" are
inferior creatures and aberrations).  So I translated these phrases, "and
thus they were destroyed, in a rain of fire;  they were all transformed to
birds.  . . . they became the Pipiles.   . . . This is why today children
are called pipilpipil, 'little gobblers'."    I speculated the Mexica
narrator(s) might be disparaging the Pipil dialect as "turkey-talk", sug
gested to me by Lehmann's note and the following entry in Santamaria's
Diccionario General de Americanismos:  "Pipiles. (Del Azteca pipil,
muchacho, porque en un principio hablaron el azteca en forma corrompida,
como lo hablaria un nino) Antiguas tribus indigenas de Centro America."

However, the discussion on-line made me question whether there was any
reliable attestation of pipil as "turkey" in any 16th or 17th century
record;  checking the usual suspects I could find none.
Therefore any use of "turkey" would appear suspect for this 1550s text.

I think today, I would translate, closer to Velazquez, "...They were turned
into birds.  ...They were children [at the time of transformation];  that's
why today children are called "little chirpers."

Who's correctly reading this narrator?  Or are we all lost?

[BTW, listeros who receive Estudios de C. Nahuatl may have seen my
translation of this ms. in the 1998 (#28) issue.  Unfortunately, I was not
able to review the galleys and a number of strange print errors crept in.
 Most importantly, however, my brief theory of the oral verse-phrase
structure perceivable in the transcribed text is almost impossible to see
in the sample as printed.  I would welcome the opportunity to send
corrected off-prints to anyone who is interested.]

Willard Gingerich
St. John's University
8000  Utopia Pkwy
Jamaica, NY 11349
718-990-1442  FAX 718-990-1894
gingeriw at stjohns.edu


From heatherhess at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 15 02:35:21 2000
From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 20:35:21 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.203521.0600.>

where is huitzitzilingo exactly!  thanks!  Yolohtzin

>From: Alfonso.Galan at level3.com
>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: RE:
>Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:55:43 -0700
>
>It's great to know there are others out there interested in learning
>Nahuatl.  Every year in the Spring, I go to Huitzitzilingo, Mexico on a
>mission trip.  It is an Indian village and the people have maintained =
>the
>Aztec culture and language.  I have been searching for some learning
>materials for a long time.  I just found two sources:
>
>http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/gateway.html - The Nahuatl gateway =
>has
>some very interesting information.  There is a link to books on =
>Nahuatl.
>Dr. Schwaller can copy (with permission of the author) the out of print =
>book
>Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar.  It's a two volume course that =
>focuses
>on Grammar but has a lot of basic language also.  I just received them =
>and
>am very impressed with the content.  I hope to be speaking Nahuatl by =
>the
>end of the year!
>
>http://languagelab.bh.indiana.edu/ - this is the language lab at =
>Indiana
>University.  They have three language tapes on Nahuatl.  They are from =
>the
>same author as the book referenced above but I am not yet sure if they
>compliment the books.  The tapes are led in Spanish and primarily focus =
>on
>Nahuatl grammar.  It's not very easy to understand without having a =
>command
>over the language....but I hope to get there.
>
>Hope this helps - and please send me any information on reference =
>materials
>you may find.
>
>p.s.  My email address is about to change so please use the one =
>referenced
>below for any future communication.  Thank you!
>
>Saludos,
>Alfonso Galan
>cogalan at msn.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Linda Velarde [mailto:refuge at vallecitos.org]
>Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 10:05 AM
>To: Multiple recipients of list
>Subject: Re:=20
>
>
>Dear Friends:
>
>I am also trying to learn Nahuatl by tapes.  Any helpful suggestions
>would be appriecated.
>abrazos
>linda velarde
>
>A Egli wrote:
> >=20
> > Dear N=E1huatl friends, dear John F. Schwaller,
> >=20
> > I intend to write a work about N=E1huatl and its influence on the =
>South
> > American Spanish.
> >=20
> > Among others I am searching for a CD or a cassette with some =
>N=E1huatl
>spoken
> > texts.
> >=20
> > Can someone help me?
> >=20
> > Yvonne
> > Switzerland

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From heatherhess at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 15 02:35:29 2000
From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 20:35:29 -0600
Subject: Not really about Spanish "Gods"
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.203529.0600.>

hola!  donde vive!  yo vive en canada ahora - regressa mexico en julio!!!!

Yolohtzin

>From: carlos.robles at valeo.com
>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: Not really about Spanish "Gods"
>Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:42:38 -0700
>
>Your comment is accurate, not exactly about the original mentioned subj=
>ect but
>very good.
>I am Mexican and I feel more proud of my Mexican part rather than my Sp=
>anish
>one, as you know we are the result of a mix of local inhabitants depend=
>ing on
>the region, Spaniards and Arabs who conquested Spain for 7 centuries. I=
>  have
>been in Spain and the people is not very nice neither with foreign peop=
>le nor
>with people from different Spanish regions.
>But my real interest is to emphasize that the language?s morphology ref=
>lect
>their speaking people habits, morals and behaviors.
>The Nahuatl has three different speaking formats:  plain, formal and ve=
>ry
>formal; the way the pure Aztecs were ennobling the human being.
>And the words themselves reflect the regard people has to others, for i=
>nstance
>"Tlasohkamahtli", Thanks means literately ?love to you through my mouth=
>?.
>I hope this message do not offend Spaniards but It is true.
>Best regards
>And thanks for your comment.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"Heather Hess" <heatherhess at hotmail.com> on 26/01/2000 02:25:20 PM
>
>Please respond to nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>
>To:   Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>cc:    (bcc: Carlos ROBLES/Sanluis/VWS/VALEO)
>Subject:  Re: Spanish "Gods"
>
>
>=
>
>I want to reply to this subject on a very personal note.  I am Canadian=
>  and
>have spent much of my last few years in Mexico.  I have had varied
>experiences learning Nahautl and am associated with Aztec Dancers so ha=
>ve
>first hand information.  These people that are my friends are hospitabl=
>e
>before anything ' they open up their doors ' give you food ' hospitalit=
>y '
>anything I ever need is just there.  The Spaniards when they came also
>received a warm welcome but abused and took advantage of the Aztecas!  =
>I can
>only say that if only the rest of the world could learn to open up thei=
>r
>doors to people the way Mexicans do we wouldn=B4t have so much trouble =
>in the
>world right now!  We must quit worrying about trivialities and get down=
>  to
>the basics!  We as a tiny particle of this world must learn to once aga=
>in
>respect and be open to people more than we are to material goods ' movi=
>es
>fit into that category ' movies are for entertainment ' they are not to=
>  be
>taken seriously ' people that see movies come to their own conclusions =
>'
>people that are aware will realize the misgivings of what is popular in=
>  the
>eyes of the public ' those that are not aware ' well ' for them there i=
>s no
>hope!  Forgive the format of this message ' I have to pay for computer =
>time
>so didn=B4t stop to format this opinion!
>
>Itzpapalotzin
>
>
> >From: Richard Haly <Richard.Haly at colorado.edu>
> >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
> >To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> >Subject: Spanish "Gods"
> >Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:41:01 -0700
> >
> > > The entire
> > > "Cortes-Quetzalcoatl" scenario appears only in the later accounts. =
>While
> > > it is fairly clear that Nahuas applied the term "teotl" to the Span=
>ish
> > > early on, it is also clear that the Spanish thought they were being=
>
> >called
> > > "gods" and that they relished the idea, despite the fact that the N=
>ahuas
> > > never revered them as gods. To pretend that identifying "whites" as=
>  gods
> > > is a generic "native" reaction to "superior strangers" is arguably
> >racist.>>
> >
> >The problem with thinking that Nahuas considered Spaniards to be gods
> >resides not in Nahua "naivete" nor in Spanish presumption but in our o=
>wn
> >unexamined assumptions of what gods are. If we go back to what Nahuas
> >called
> >Spaniards we find teotl and we also find that they spoke of their own
> >rulers
> >using the same term. The issue is  not one of deifying Spaniards but o=
>f
> >humanizing "gods." What is teotl? Recall that commoners could not look=
>
> >directly at Moteuczomah just as they could not look directly at the su=
>n.
> >Too
> >much tonalli (radiance). They would be blinded. It is lots more produc=
>tive
> >to think of both Nahua rulers and Spaniards as these sort of man-gods.=
>
> >
> >What I don't understand are all these stereotypical interpretations on=
>
> >either side. Perhaps it's time to again trot out a quote that appears =
>every
> >so often here: Walt Kelley (creator of Pogo): "We have met the enemy a=
>nd he
> >is us."
> >
> >Richard Haly
> >
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>=
>
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From njcolma1 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 15 02:36:28 2000
From: njcolma1 at yahoo.com (Nick)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 19:36:28 -0700
Subject: New name
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.193628.0700.NJCOLMA1@YAHOO.COM>

Hello,
my name is Nicholas Javier and I'm a college student
in California.  I've been involved with an Aztec dance
group there, which is an off-shoot of a larger group,
Xitontekiza Atl-Tlachinolli, for almost an entire
semster now.  Recently, today in fact, I earned the
honor of a nahuatl name: "Ixtac yoalli."  I've heard
of the word "yoalli," but I've also heard the word,
"yaolli," and I'm confused over which one was really
meant for me.  My tlatoani gave me this name "White
Warrior," and I think either he got things mixed up,
or I did.  I've also done some research using the
resources you provided, and I picked up the word
"yaotl" as the word for war.  This complicates things
more, 'cause if my tlatoani meant warrior and just
mixed up the spelling, did he also add the -lli
incorrectly?  I'd really like to clear this up, as
"yoalli" means night(I think), among other things, and
I don't think he meant "White Night."
Thank you,
Nick

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com


From heatherhess at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 15 03:00:23 2000
From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 21:00:23 -0600
Subject: Not really about Spanish "Gods"
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.210023.0600.>

i am very sorry - i don't know how this happened - i was sending a message
to a totally different person!  sorry for the confusion!  Heather

>From: "Heather Hess" <heatherhess at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: Not really about Spanish "Gods"
>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 20:35:29 -0600
>
>hola!  donde vive!  yo vive en canada ahora - regressa mexico en julio!!!!
>
>Yolohtzin
>
> >From: carlos.robles at valeo.com
> >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
> >To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: Not really about Spanish "Gods"
> >Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:42:38 -0700
> >
> >Your comment is accurate, not exactly about the original mentioned subj=
> >ect but
> >very good.
> >I am Mexican and I feel more proud of my Mexican part rather than my Sp=
> >anish
> >one, as you know we are the result of a mix of local inhabitants depend=
> >ing on
> >the region, Spaniards and Arabs who conquested Spain for 7 centuries. I=
> >  have
> >been in Spain and the people is not very nice neither with foreign peop=
> >le nor
> >with people from different Spanish regions.
> >But my real interest is to emphasize that the language?s morphology ref=
> >lect
> >their speaking people habits, morals and behaviors.
> >The Nahuatl has three different speaking formats:  plain, formal and ve=
> >ry
> >formal; the way the pure Aztecs were ennobling the human being.
> >And the words themselves reflect the regard people has to others, for i=
> >nstance
> >"Tlasohkamahtli", Thanks means literately ?love to you through my mouth=
> >?.
> >I hope this message do not offend Spaniards but It is true.
> >Best regards
> >And thanks for your comment.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >"Heather Hess" <heatherhess at hotmail.com> on 26/01/2000 02:25:20 PM
> >
> >Please respond to nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
> >
> >To:   Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> >cc:    (bcc: Carlos ROBLES/Sanluis/VWS/VALEO)
> >Subject:  Re: Spanish "Gods"
> >
> >
> >=
> >
> >I want to reply to this subject on a very personal note.  I am Canadian=
> >  and
> >have spent much of my last few years in Mexico.  I have had varied
> >experiences learning Nahautl and am associated with Aztec Dancers so ha=
> >ve
> >first hand information.  These people that are my friends are hospitabl=
> >e
> >before anything ' they open up their doors ' give you food ' hospitalit=
> >y '
> >anything I ever need is just there.  The Spaniards when they came also
> >received a warm welcome but abused and took advantage of the Aztecas!  =
> >I can
> >only say that if only the rest of the world could learn to open up thei=
> >r
> >doors to people the way Mexicans do we wouldn=B4t have so much trouble =
> >in the
> >world right now!  We must quit worrying about trivialities and get down=
> >  to
> >the basics!  We as a tiny particle of this world must learn to once aga=
> >in
> >respect and be open to people more than we are to material goods ' movi=
> >es
> >fit into that category ' movies are for entertainment ' they are not to=
> >  be
> >taken seriously ' people that see movies come to their own conclusions =
> >'
> >people that are aware will realize the misgivings of what is popular in=
> >  the
> >eyes of the public ' those that are not aware ' well ' for them there i=
> >s no
> >hope!  Forgive the format of this message ' I have to pay for computer =
> >time
> >so didn=B4t stop to format this opinion!
> >
> >Itzpapalotzin
> >
> >
> > >From: Richard Haly <Richard.Haly at colorado.edu>
> > >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
> > >To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> > >Subject: Spanish "Gods"
> > >Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:41:01 -0700
> > >
> > > > The entire
> > > > "Cortes-Quetzalcoatl" scenario appears only in the later accounts. =
> >While
> > > > it is fairly clear that Nahuas applied the term "teotl" to the Span=
> >ish
> > > > early on, it is also clear that the Spanish thought they were being=
> >
> > >called
> > > > "gods" and that they relished the idea, despite the fact that the N=
> >ahuas
> > > > never revered them as gods. To pretend that identifying "whites" as=
> >  gods
> > > > is a generic "native" reaction to "superior strangers" is arguably
> > >racist.>>
> > >
> > >The problem with thinking that Nahuas considered Spaniards to be gods
> > >resides not in Nahua "naivete" nor in Spanish presumption but in our o=
> >wn
> > >unexamined assumptions of what gods are. If we go back to what Nahuas
> > >called
> > >Spaniards we find teotl and we also find that they spoke of their own
> > >rulers
> > >using the same term. The issue is  not one of deifying Spaniards but o=
> >f
> > >humanizing "gods." What is teotl? Recall that commoners could not look=
> >
> > >directly at Moteuczomah just as they could not look directly at the su=
> >n.
> > >Too
> > >much tonalli (radiance). They would be blinded. It is lots more produc=
> >tive
> > >to think of both Nahua rulers and Spaniards as these sort of man-gods.=
> >
> > >
> > >What I don't understand are all these stereotypical interpretations on=
> >
> > >either side. Perhaps it's time to again trot out a quote that appears =
> >every
> > >so often here: Walt Kelley (creator of Pogo): "We have met the enemy a=
> >nd he
> > >is us."
> > >
> > >Richard Haly
> > >
> >
> >______________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >=
> >
> >
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From fjgs at servidor.unam.mx  Sat Apr 15 03:12:57 2000
From: fjgs at servidor.unam.mx (Ehecatecolotl)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 21:12:57 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.211257.0600.>

There is a Huitzitzilco in the northern part of Veracruz. I don�t know if it
is the one referenced below.

Getting to Huitzitzilco is a bit of an odissey. You would have to drive up
to Pachuca (if you travel from Mexico City) and then take the road to
Huejutla de Reyes, then take the exit towards Tuzanapa, Drive past that and
where the road forks take the left road towards Zontecomatlan.  Once you�ve
driven past Zontecomatlan look for the exit towards El Naranjal. People
there should give you directions. Depending on the time of the year you
travel you might have to walk to get there. The little town is in the heart
of the sierra. If you can handle driving on the trails then you can drive
all the way up to Huitzitzilco. The astonishing scenery makes worth the
trip, not to mention the contact with native speakers. Ximomacehui!
----- Mensaje original -----
De: Heather Hess <heatherhess at hotmail.com>
Para: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Enviado: Viernes, 14 de Abril de 2000 08:35 p.m.
Asunto: RE:


> where is huitzitzilingo exactly!  thanks!  Yolohtzin
>
> >From: Alfonso.Galan at level3.com
> >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
> >To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> >Subject: RE:
> >Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:55:43 -0700
> >
> >It's great to know there are others out there interested in learning
> >Nahuatl.  Every year in the Spring, I go to Huitzitzilingo, Mexico on a
> >mission trip...


From xochiquetzal at earthlink.net  Sat Apr 15 03:37:55 2000
From: xochiquetzal at earthlink.net (Odilia Rodriguez)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 21:37:55 -0600
Subject: Not really about Spanish "Gods"
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.213755.0600.>

I am not sure about your comments about Spain or Spaniards.  I am a Chicana
living in California and am proud of my Mexican ancestors.  Sometimes while
in Mexico, Mexicans too have an aditude like, "We don't really consider you
to be Mexican--you are American."  I just think--people come in all shades
and colors and from many geographical places with all kinds of ideas and
ways of thinking.  It is good to be proud of who you are where you come from
and especially who your ancestors were but not to the point where it causes
problems.  Like war!

I am wondering if Tlasohkamahtli means Thanks or does it  mean the
other--love to you through my mouth or are you saying this is what the
Mexica said instead of saying thanks the way we do?

Gracias,
Odilia
>
>> From: carlos.robles at valeo.com
>> Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>> To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>> Subject: Re: Not really about Spanish "Gods"
>> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:42:38 -0700
snip>
>> "Tlasohkamahtli", Thanks means literately ?love to you through my mouth=
>> ?.
>> I hope this message do not offend Spaniards but It is true.
>> Best regards
>> And thanks for your comment.


From fjgs at servidor.unam.mx  Sat Apr 15 04:15:16 2000
From: fjgs at servidor.unam.mx (Ehecatecolotl)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 22:15:16 -0600
Subject: Tlazohcamati ahnozo ttazohcamahtli?
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.221516.0600.>

Well, I seem to be in my talkative lapse -OK, writeative lapse- . I hope the
very learned members of the list will come up with opportune comments on
this.
I think the expression is tlazohcamati and it is short for nimitz
tlazohcamati or nimitz tlazohcamachililia which would be a transitive verb
meaning I feel you lovingly, since tlazohca would be the adverb and mati the
verb feel, or know.

And yes, I guess Carlos means what our ancestors (totlazohtatzitzinhuan,
totlazohcoltzitztinhuan) said instead of thanks, gracias, mercy, etc.

Sorry about the inaccuracy and brevity of my comment.
Ehecatecolotl.
----- Mensaje original -----
De: Odilia Rodriguez <xochiquetzal at earthlink.net>
Para: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Enviado: Viernes, 14 de Abril de 2000 09:37 p.m.
Asunto: Re: Not really about Spanish "Gods"


> I am not sure about your comments about Spain or Spaniards.  I am a
Chicana
> living in California and am proud of my Mexican ancestors.  Sometimes
while
> in Mexico, Mexicans too have an aditude like, "We don't really consider
you
> to be Mexican--you are American."  I just think--people come in all shades
> and colors and from many geographical places with all kinds of ideas and
> ways of thinking.  It is good to be proud of who you are where you come
from
> and especially who your ancestors were but not to the point where it
causes
> problems.  Like war!
>
> I am wondering if Tlasohkamahtli means Thanks or does it  mean the
> other--love to you through my mouth or are you saying this is what the
> Mexica said instead of saying thanks the way we do?
>
> Gracias,
> Odilia
> >
> >> From: carlos.robles at valeo.com
> >> Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
> >> To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> >> Subject: Re: Not really about Spanish "Gods"
> >> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:42:38 -0700
> snip>
> >> "Tlasohkamahtli", Thanks means literately ?love to you through my
mouth=
> >> ?.
> >> I hope this message do not offend Spaniards but It is true.
> >> Best regards
> >> And thanks for your comment.
>
>


From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Sat Apr 15 09:14:12 2000
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 11:14:12 +0200
Subject: New name
Message-ID: <SAT.15.APR.2000.111412.0200.JUERGEN.STOWASSER@UNIVIE.AC.AT>

yaotl=warrior (and also an epithet for Tezcatlipoca)
yo(h)ualli=night
iztac=white (like salt) (think of the volcano Iztaccihuatl!)
         (and not iXtac)
Nick schrieb:

> Hello,
> my name is Nicholas Javier and I'm a college student
> in California.  I've been involved with an Aztec dance
> group there, which is an off-shoot of a larger group,
> Xitontekiza Atl-Tlachinolli, for almost an entire
> semster now.  Recently, today in fact, I earned the
> honor of a nahuatl name: "Ixtac yoalli."  I've heard
> of the word "yoalli," but I've also heard the word,
> "yaolli," and I'm confused over which one was really
> meant for me.  My tlatoani gave me this name "White
> Warrior," and I think either he got things mixed up,
> or I did.  I've also done some research using the
> resources you provided, and I picked up the word
> "yaotl" as the word for war.  This complicates things
> more, 'cause if my tlatoani meant warrior and just
> mixed up the spelling, did he also add the -lli
> incorrectly?  I'd really like to clear this up, as
> "yoalli" means night(I think), among other things, and
> I don't think he meant "White Night."
> Thank you,
> Nick
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
> http://invites.yahoo.com

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
Austria
tel: 01/ 524 54 60
0676/ 398 66 79


From sennomo at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 16 20:17:56 2000
From: sennomo at hotmail.com (sennomo la Esperantisto)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 14:17:56 -0600
Subject: attitudes
Message-ID: <SUN.16.APR.2000.141756.0600.>

I'm sorry for taking us further off-topic, but I think this is an important
issue, and it is certainly related to the desire to learn nahuatl.

I'm a gringo living in Mexico City.  From my experience in a few countries
(counting the U.S., as well), I've found that there are always people who
want to feel superior to others, and many who believe in some kind of racial
"purity".  When you're mixed like majority of American (both continents)
inhabitants, you'll always run into the line "you're not really Spanish
(English, German, whatever)".

I think too many of us, in our quest to discover ourselves, look to others
to tell us, or to dead ancestors to guide us.  I've met quite a few people
(my relatives included) who go on genealogical quests and try to learn
nearly-extinct languages to recapture something they feel they have lost (or
has been stolen from them).  This bugs me because it tells me that people
aren't accepting themselves for who they are.  I have met very few Americans
or Mexicans who fully accept that they don't fit into the old-world racial
or national classifications.  For example, a number of (visibly indigenous)
Mexicans refer to themselves as "Spaniards" while my relatives in
Pennsylvania call themselves "English".  A lot of us still have yet to get
over the shame of being the product of rape or being the descendants of
slave-owners.

So, to try to sum up (I could go on for quite a while), I'm no more English
than my girlfriend is Zapotec...and no less.  I think we should keep that in
perspective.  I hope I'm making sense.

--Ben

>From: Odilia Rodriguez <xochiquetzal at earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: Not really about Spanish "Gods"
>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 21:37:55 -0600
>
>I am not sure about your comments about Spain or Spaniards.  I am a Chicana
>living in California and am proud of my Mexican ancestors.  Sometimes while
>in Mexico, Mexicans too have an aditude like, "We don't really consider you
>to be Mexican--you are American."  I just think--people come in all shades
>and colors and from many geographical places with all kinds of ideas and
>ways of thinking.  It is good to be proud of who you are where you come
>from
>and especially who your ancestors were but not to the point where it causes
>problems.  Like war!


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Sun Apr 16 23:28:55 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (schwallr at selway.umt.edu)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:28:55 -0600
Subject: Spaniards
Message-ID: <SUN.16.APR.2000.172855.0600.>

Dear Subscribers,

I'm sorry, but the current discussion on ethnic identity really has nothing
to do with the stated purpose of the discussion list, and I must ask you to
carry it on off-line.

J. F. Schwaller
List owner


From notoca at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 17 23:02:07 2000
From: notoca at hotmail.com (Red Fox)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:02:07 WST
Subject: New name
Message-ID: <MON.17.APR.2000.230207.WST.NOTOCA@HOTMAIL.COM>

I always thought yaotl meant "enemy" and only took on the meaning of "war"
when it was embedded in compounds. The stand alone word for war is yaoyotl.

Isn't the word for warrior teyaochihuani?

With regards to the name "Ixtac yoalli" I have seen the form yoalli which
means night. It's possibly another spelling for yohualli. So,  ixtac (iztac)
yoalli would most likely mean "white night".

Is saying, iztac teyaochihuani, an acceptable way of saying "white warrior"?

===========================================
>and I picked up the word "yaotl" as the word for war.

>yaotl=warrior (and also an epithet for Tezcatlipoca)
>yo(h)ualli=night
>iztac=white (like salt) (think of the volcano Iztaccihuatl!)
>          (and not iXtac)
>Nick schrieb:
>
> > Hello,
> > my name is Nicholas Javier and I'm a college student
> > in California.  I've been involved with an Aztec dance
> > group there, which is an off-shoot of a larger group,
> > Xitontekiza Atl-Tlachinolli, for almost an entire
> > semster now.  Recently, today in fact, I earned the
> > honor of a nahuatl name: "Ixtac yoalli."  I've heard
> > of the word "yoalli," but I've also heard the word,
> > "yaolli," and I'm confused over which one was really
> > meant for me.  My tlatoani gave me this name "White
> > Warrior," and I think either he got things mixed up,
> > or I did.  I've also done some research using the
> > resources you provided, and I picked up the word
> > "yaotl" as the word for war.  This complicates things
> > more, 'cause if my tlatoani meant warrior and just
> > mixed up the spelling, did he also add the -lli
> > incorrectly?  I'd really like to clear this up, as
> > "yoalli" means night(I think), among other things, and
> > I don't think he meant "White Night."
> > Thank you,
> > Nick
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
> > http://invites.yahoo.com
>
>--
>Juergen Stowasser
>Burggasse 114/2/8
>A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
>Austria
>tel: 01/ 524 54 60
>0676/ 398 66 79
>
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From heatherhess at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 17 20:24:31 2000
From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:24:31 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <MON.17.APR.2000.142431.0600.>

Alfonso.Galan at level3.com

In one message the above e-mail was referred to regarding learning Nahuatl
and Aztec medicine in Mexico in the summer.  I sent an e-mail to this
address but the system administrator intervened saying this address is not
correct.  Could you please help me direct a message to Alfonso!  thanks!
Yolohtzin

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Apr 18 20:53:17 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:53:17 -0600
Subject: New Book on Sahagun
Message-ID: <TUE.18.APR.2000.145317.0600.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

Browne, Walden, 1964-
   Sahagun and the transition to modernity /   Norman, Okla. :
 University of Oklahoma Press,  2000.
ISBN: 0806132337 (alk. paper)
LC: F1219.S13917  B76 2000
Price: $    34.95


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com  Thu Apr 20 04:53:17 2000
From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 00:53:17 EDT
Subject: New Movie
Message-ID: <THU.20.APR.2000.005317.EDT.>

Dear Listeros,

    My friend, Victor Rocha, who runs the California Indian Gaming ( and
other indigenous information) web site sent me this concerning "La Otra
Conquista", a film which should be of interest to many on this service.

                                            Bendiciones a los cuatro vientos,
                                            Henry
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Preparing a 'Conquest'



By LORENZA MUNOZ, Times Staff Writer






     The Spanish conquest of the Americas is usually told as a quick and easy
story: They came, they conquered, they converted the Indians into Christians.

     Indeed, "history is written for the victors and what they leave out are
the losers," as academic historian Arthur Drexler noted.

     But Mexican director Salvador Carrasco wanted to tell the losers' story.
He wanted to write about the culture that wasn't totally conquered as
evidenced by the strong indigenous heartbeat that remains an integral part of
Mexico. Surely, Carrasco contemplated, the Spaniards must have learned
something from the richly complex and sophisticated civilizations they
attempted to obliterate.

     And thus "The Other Conquest," or "La Otra Conquista," Carrasco's first
feature film, was born.

     The movie, released in Mexico in April 1999 by 20th Century Fox's
international branch, was a phenomenal success, grossing more than $2 million
in theaters. A measly sum by Hollywood standards, perhaps, but it broke
Mexican box-office records.

     Never in his wildest dreams did Carrasco think his movie--an intense
colonial-era picture in Spanish and Nahuatl (the language of the
Aztecs)--would ever strike a populist chord.

     One year after its release in Mexico, Southern California audiences can
see the picture. Although epic foreign films like "The Other Conquest" are
usually released in one or two art-house theaters, the distributor is
venturing that the film could have a broader appeal. Carrasco's film, in
Spanish with English subtitles, opens today in 70 theaters, both art house
and mainstream, throughout Los Angeles County and outlying areas like Orange
County, Santa Barbara and Palm Springs.

     At the premiere last week, nearly 200 people were turned away from the
packed Academy of Arts and Sciences' Samuel Goldwyn Theater. Distributor
Mitch Goldman, former president of marketing and distribution for New Line
Cinema, says he is betting the film will play broadly to Latino audiences
here as well as the non-Latino art-house crowd. The Spanish and English
marketing campaign cost nearly $2 million, a significant amount for a
one-region release.

     "I was interested in pushing the limits on what the Latino audience
could go for," Goldman said. "I was not interested in getting this out to
only a couple of art theaters. While I don't see this as a picture that would
work in every theater in America, I do believe that it has a very strong
viability and commerciality for a Los Angeles audience."


     Film Intriguing Many in the Area

     So far, through word of mouth, the film seems to be intriguing many in
the Southland, from the hierarchy of the Catholic archdiocese to radio
personalities like KCRW-FM's Tom Schnabel, who presented a show on the film's
music, to students filling up auditoriums at screenings in Orange County to
KCET-TV's "Life & Times" doing a segment on the film.

     To be sure, the film is not light entertainment.

     "This film is not about somebody becoming famous, getting rich or
getting the girl," said Carrasco, a 32-year-old Mexico City native. "It's
about a spiritual quest and about something nobody can take away."

     The story, which Carrasco began writing in 1990 during his last two
years at New York University's film school, begins in 1521, the year the
Spaniards conquered the Aztec empire. The conquest is seen through the eyes
of Topiltzin, an Aztec codex painter played by Mexican actor Damian Delgado,
as the Spaniards kill his relatives, destroy the capital of Tenochtitlan and
torture him and attempt to convert him to Christianity.

     But Topiltzin rages against a Catholic priest's efforts to change his
spiritual beliefs. The priest learns a profound lesson in tolerance and the
true meaning of Christianity as he watches Topiltzin struggle with the forced
conversion.

     Initially, however, the film had many strikes going against it. Carrasco
and his producer, Alvaro Domingo, were first-timers, pitching a 500-year-old
story with no stars.

     "We would hear things like, 'People don't like period films, people
don't like to think when they go to movies,' " Carrasco said. "At one point
they said, 'Do you realize the risk involved in having an Indian
protagonist?' And we said, 'What risk? That is one of the greatest assets of
the film.' "


     The Movie Took Six Years to Shoot

     Finding money to finance the film, which cost $3.9 million, was a slow
process that forced the filmmakers to scatter 50 days of shooting through six
years. Some scenes were shot in 1992 and finished years later. The actors
literally got older as the filming progressed, with some growing gray hair, a
few more wrinkles and pounds added to their frames in the final scenes.

     The movie is nearly 100% independently financed, a rarity in Mexico,
where the government's film institute usually pitches in with half of a
film's budget. Domingo got money from sources ranging from Jesuit priests to
entrepreneurs to musicians.

     "With the seed money we shot three sequences--20 minutes worth--in
1992," said Alvaro, whose father, Placido Domingo, pitched in as executive
producer. "I went out with that tape and showed it to people who had turned
me away. I would show them and say, 'Look, we are serious and this is what we
can do.' Then they got excited about it."

     Following its success in Mexico, the filmmakers screened their movie for
Fox executives here. But Fox was not interested in releasing the film to a
wider audience. So Carrasco was referred to Goldman, whose company, Hombre D'
Oro, is distributing the movie. Both the filmmakers and Goldman agreed from
the outset that the film should be released to both the art-house and broader
Latino audience in Southern California. Depending on how well the film does,
the movie could expand to Texas, Northern California and possibly New York,
Goldman said. The film thus far has only been seen in Mexico, where it is
already available on video.


     Filmmakers Avoided Good vs. Bad Story Line

     From the beginning, the filmmakers set out to make a movie that explored
the conquest with as few cliches as possible.

     "We were not going to make a film about the goodies and the baddies,"
Carrasco said. "You end up having a racist approach by doing that. We were
never interested in the idea that the Indians were so innocent and pure, and
showing them in a mystical trance playing the flute. I think that is
disrespectful. These were complex cultures with inner contradictions."

     Although the Aztecs were very sophisticated and enlightened people on
many levels, they were also ruthless warriors who killed and enslaved many
other Indian tribes in the quest to expand their own empire. In fact, the
Spaniards did not win without assistance. They were allied with several
tribes, eager to reap revenge on the Aztecs.

     "Why did the Tlaxcaltecan Indians ally themselves with the Spaniards?"
Carrasco said. "With our 21st century eyes we say, 'Traitors!' But the Aztecs
were a warlike, tremendous empire in expansion. They had met their match. All
of a sudden what they had been doing to other people was being done to them."

     By the same token, Carrasco and Domingo (born of a Spanish father and a
Mexican mother) did not sugarcoat the massacre of Indians at the hands of the
Spaniards. It is estimated that more than 8 million Indians died between 1521
and 1531, and the Catholic hierarchy stood by as witnesses, if not
facilitators, as it happened.

     "This was a genocide," Carrasco said. "The face of the American
continent changed forever. . . . Many of the things that happened back then
are still unresolved five centuries later. We are still seeking our
identity."


     Placido Domingo Gets Assist on Musical Score

     The filmmakers played with this notion of identity and melding of
different cultures with the film's musical score as well. Taking advantage of
Placido Domingo's support and friends around the world, the filmmakers put
together an original score. Carrasco's wife, Andrea Sanderson, a
Juilliard-trained violinist, oversaw the musical production. They hired noted
composers Jorge Reyes and Samuel Zyman to create original indigenous and
Western pieces, respectively. The Academy of St. Martin in the Fields
performs the music and Placido Domingo sings a final aria, composed by Zyman
with lyrics by Carrasco, that deals with tolerance and acceptance.

     "This story is a universal subject," Carrasco said. "What culture in the
world has not undergone a process of colonization, conquest or attempted
conversion? We had someone from Poland telling us, 'God, this is us with the
Russians!' That is the magic of cinema!"


http://www.latimes.com/print/calendar/20000419/t000036721.html


From heatherhess at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 24 00:12:46 2000
From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 17:12:46 PDT
Subject: Pre-Hispanic Medicine
Message-ID: <SUN.23.APR.2000.171246.PDT.HEATHERHESS@HOTMAIL.COM>

I am hoping that someone could please give me info regarding Aztec Herbs and
Medicine - either references to books or where I can study in Mexico!
Thanks!  Yolohtzin
________________________________________________________________________
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From notoca at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 27 15:31:26 2000
From: notoca at hotmail.com (Red Fox)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 15:31:26 WST
Subject: Nahuatl Translations
Message-ID: <THU.27.APR.2000.153126.WST.NOTOCA@HOTMAIL.COM>

I have come across a few words that I have not been able to translate
properly and was hoping someone on the list would be able to help with them.

They are:

1) Xiquittacan - I have had no luck with this word.

2) Tlacempanahuia - I think the stems here are tla = something; cem = one,
whole, entire; panahuia = to surpass, exceed, cross. Would this mean "to
surpass (exceed) entirely (wholly) at something"?

3) Tlahtolnahuatilli - I think the stems are tlahtolli = word, speech;
nahuatilli = law. This would say "word/speech law", however, this does not
mean anything to me. Is this an idiom for something else?

4) Titecpillahtoah - I don't understand this one. I think it might be a verb
in the 2nd person because of the prefix (?) "ti" but I'm not sure. I also
think that I see the word for nobleman (tecpilli) but this is a bit of a
stretch as I cannot make any sense with it.

Any help with these translations would be greatly appreciated.

Thankyou

EZR


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From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Thu Apr 27 17:01:25 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 11:01:25 -0600
Subject: Nahuatl Translations
Message-ID: <THU.27.APR.2000.110125.0600.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

At 03:31 PM 4/27/2000 WST, you wrote:
>
>1) Xiquittacan - I have had no luck with this word.
>
>

This is very straight forward :
xi- optative prefix + qui- direct object pronoun + itta (to see) + -can
optative plural marker

See It!  (addressed to more than one person)


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From notoca at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 29 09:29:53 2000
From: notoca at hotmail.com (Chichiltic Coyotl)
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 09:29:53 WST
Subject: Nahuatl Translations
Message-ID: <SAT.29.APR.2000.092953.WST.NOTOCA@HOTMAIL.COM>

Tlazohcamati ipampa in tenanquililiztin.


________________________________________________________________________
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From Ian.Robertson at asu.edu  Sun Apr 30 22:48:52 2000
From: Ian.Robertson at asu.edu (Ian Robertson)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 15:48:52 -0700
Subject: FW: lenguas indigenas de mexico
Message-ID: <SUN.30.APR.2000.154852.0700.>

There is an article in La Jornada today (Sunday, April 30, 2000) in the
section
'Estados' that talks about the decline in the number of indigenous languages
speakers in Mexico. The URL is:
http://www.jornada.unam.mx/index.html
The article is in Spanish.

Oralia Cabrera
Department of Anthropology
Arizona State University
Tempe, AZ, 85287-2402
Oralia.Cabrera at asu.edu


From heatherhess at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  1 02:28:00 2000
From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:28:00 PST
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <FRI.31.MAR.2000.182800.PST.HEATHERHESS@HOTMAIL.COM>

is there anyone that speaks nahautl that lives in Canada!  Thanks!  Heather
______________________________________________________
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From heatherhess at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  1 02:40:57 2000
From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 19:40:57 -0700
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <FRI.31.MAR.2000.194057.0700.>

i would love to comunicate with you - i am in canada and don't know anyone
that speaks nahautl.  have you been to this village - what did you learn and
experiencE

Yolohtzin

>From: CHMuths at aol.com
>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: RE:
>Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:43:50 -0700
>
>Hi all,
>
>here is another source for learning Nahuatl:
>
>cice at cuer.laneta.apc.org.
>
>This group is in Guernava in M=E9xico. One can stay in their centre or in
>an=
>=20
>Indian village to learn the language.
>
>Are there more beginners out there? To exchange experiences etc.?
>
>Christa

______________________________________________________
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From xochiquetzal at earthlink.net  Sat Apr  1 09:11:50 2000
From: xochiquetzal at earthlink.net (Odilia Rodriguez)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 02:11:50 -0700
Subject: Those on Listproc
Message-ID: <SAT.1.APR.2000.021150.0700.>

Hey John,

I think I resubscribed last night...are you saying it didn't  go through?
Please let me know.  Thanx Odilia xochiquetzal at earthlink.net.

----------
>From: "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at selway.umt.edu>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Those on Listproc
>Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000, 11:57 AM
>

> The following people are the only ones on the old software.  If your name
> appears here, please contact me directly.  If it does not, then you are
> correctly subscribed.
>
> REFUGE at VALLECITOS.ORG
> SCHOONBOOM at YAHOO.CO.UK
> NOTOCA at HOTMAIL.COM
> FRANCISCO_BRAMBILA at YAHOO.COM
> VSBOHN at YAHOO.COM
> XOCHIQUETZAL at EARTHLINK.NET
> RHORN at UH.EDU
> RRUELAS at INFONET.COM.MX
>
>
> J. F. Schwaller
> List Owner
>
>
> John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/
>


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Mon Apr  3 16:52:46 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:52:46 -0600
Subject: Nahuatl Summer Institute: Summer courses 2000
Message-ID: <MON.3.APR.2000.105246.0600.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

Council for Latin American Studies <latin.america at yale.edu>

Nahuatl Summer Institute Summer 2000

The application is also available on-line at

www.yale.edu/summer/

The beginning level intensive course will be offered from June 5, 2000-July
28, 2000.  Michel Launey who was originally scheduled to teach the last
week of the course will be unable to come.  He will be replaced by renowed
scholar, James Lockhart.

If you are planning to register please make sure to register directly with
summer programs but also please contact me as well.  I need to know how
many students are coming in order to get all course material ready.

Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions or need assistance
finding housing in the New Haven area.

Sincerely,

Beatriz Riefkohl

Council on Latin American and Iberian Studies
34 Hillhouse Avenue, Suite 340
P.O. Box 208206
New Haven, CT 06520-8206
203-432-3422
203-432-5963 fax


From refuge at vallecitos.org  Thu Apr  6 19:29:56 2000
From: refuge at vallecitos.org (Linda Velarde)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:29:56 -0600
Subject: Those on Listproc
Message-ID: <THU.6.APR.2000.132956.0600.>

please change my subscription. thank you.
linda velarde

"John F. Schwaller" wrote:
>
> The following people are the only ones on the old software.  If your name
> appears here, please contact me directly.  If it does not, then you are
> correctly subscribed.
>
> REFUGE at VALLECITOS.ORG
> SCHOONBOOM at YAHOO.CO.UK
> NOTOCA at HOTMAIL.COM
> FRANCISCO_BRAMBILA at YAHOO.COM
> VSBOHN at YAHOO.COM
> XOCHIQUETZAL at EARTHLINK.NET
> RHORN at UH.EDU
> RRUELAS at INFONET.COM.MX
>
> J. F. Schwaller
> List Owner
>
> John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
> Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
> The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>                           http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Fri Apr  7 15:10:31 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:10:31 -0600
Subject: New Book
Message-ID: <FRI.7.APR.2000.091031.0600.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

I have just received word of a new book:

_Xipe Totec: Notre seigneur l'ecorche_ by Anne-Marie Vie-Wohrer
(Mexico: Centre Francais d'Etudes Mexicaines et Centroamericaines, 2000)

In French with summaries in English and Spanish

"This publication is dedicated to the analysis of the deity representation,
well known for the flaying ritual celebrated on his festival day.  The
first volume offers the method used for the pictographic study and its
application.  The second volume contains plates of pictographs gathered in
44 pre- or post- columbian manuscripts to illustrate the deciphering method"

For further infoprmation contact:
jawo at club-internet.fr  or cemca at data.net.mx


From dfrye at umich.edu  Fri Apr  7 18:30:09 2000
From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:30:09 -0400
Subject: El Dorado review
Message-ID: <FRI.7.APR.2000.143009.0400.DFRYE@UMICH.EDU>

A few weeks back the question came up of protesting or boycotting the new
cartoon movie "The Road to El Dorado." From the reviews I have seen so far
a boycott would hardly be worth the effort. Here is the review of the
movie by Stuart Klawans (in The Nation, April 24 edition):

------------------------------------------------------------

Somewhere there lives a boy who wants to grow up and join the
bus-and-truck tour of Jesus Christ Superstar. For that child, DreamWorks
has made the animated feature The Road to El Dorado.

Here's Miguel (voice of Kenneth Branagh), shoulder-length blond hair
parted in the middle, reddish beard trimmed neatly at all times, sashaying
into the South American jungle in a flowing outfit cut from the same
fabric as the soundtrack's Elton John songs. Is this 1519, as a title
proclaims, or 1973? If market research says that kiddie-film ticket-buyers
are mostly parents who are pushing 40, then you know the answer. It's time
to pump up the pop-rock and tell the animators to draw flared pants--the
kind that are favored by Tulio (voice of Kevin Kline), Miguel's bosom
companion, who pulls his dark hair back in a ponytail and wears a little
vest, as if he worked in a Buffalo Springfield cover band.

The story, copied in equal measure from Hope-Crosby Road movies and The
Man Who Would Be King, goes like this: Miguel and Tulio, a couple of
scuffling showbiz types (I mean, lovable Spanish rapscallions) come into
possession of a cryptic map to the City of Gold, El Dorado. Soon after,
they stumble into the hold of a ship full of conquistadors bound for the
New World. A brisk shipwreck later, Miguel and Tulio wash up in a place of
dense jungle and visual milange, composed of Olmec, Maya, Aztec and Disney
elements. Sure enough, our boys have found El Dorado. Now they can be
greeted as gods (in the time-honored fashion of white-men-meet-the-natives
movies), introduce democracy to Mesoamerica and bicker over the affections
of Chel (voice of Rosie Perez), the cartoon babe in the Dorothy Lamour
role.

Directed by Eric "Bibo" Bergeron and Don Paul, The Road to El Dorado
creates characters with the unmodeled, flat-plane features that uglify so
much of digital animation. As if to force expression into these figures,
the filmmakers have overcompensated by outfitting Miguel and Tulio with
broad white bands in their mouths--digital-animation dentures, you might
say--which are to be flashed at all times. Only the villain, the
priest-sorcerer Tzekel-Kan (voice of Armand Assante), has individual
teeth, a trait that makes him the film's most human-seeming figure, even
when done up in his jaguar-mask outfit.

If you are a pushing-40 parent who buys tickets to kiddie films, you may
take your charges to The Road to El Dorado in full confidence that they
will come away disapproving of human sacrifice. At least the early
seventies taught us that much.


From muyalbalam03 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  8 06:40:37 2000
From: muyalbalam03 at hotmail.com (Roberto Tirado)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 23:40:37 PDT
Subject: question about translation
Message-ID: <FRI.7.APR.2000.234037.PDT.MUYALBALAM03@HOTMAIL.COM>

  Hello.

  i have a question i hope someone can answer.

what is the nahuatl word for "thought(s)" ?

or if anyone knows, how can you translate this into nahuatl :

  " to pierce your thoughts " ?


  thank you .
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From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Mon Apr 10 14:45:34 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:45:34 -0600
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Presentaci=F3n_del_libro_de_Druzo_Maldonado?=
Message-ID: <MON.10.APR.2000.084534.0600.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

>
>EL INSTITUTO DE INVESTIGACIONES ANTROPOL?GICAS DE LA
>UNIVERSIDAD NACIONAL AUTONOMA DE MEXICO
>Tiene el agrado de invitarle a la presentaci?n del libro
>
>Deidades y espacio ritual en Cuauhn?huac y Huaxtepec.
>Tlahuicas y xochimilcas de Morelos (siglos XII-XVI)
>
>de
>
>DRUZO MALDONADO JIM?NEZ
>
>Presentar?n el libro
>
>JOHANNA BRODA, ANA MARIA SALAZAR PERALTA y JESUS MONJAR?Z-RUIZ
>
>Jueves 13 de abril, a las 19:00 horas en la
>
>Casa Universitaria del Libro
>Orizaba y Puebla, Col. Roma.
>M?xico, D.F.
>
>Vino de honor.
>
>


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk  Fri Apr 14 08:09:03 2000
From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 08:09:03 GMT
Subject: finally beginning to learn it
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.080903.GMT.MCLSSAA2@FS2.MT.UMIST.AC.UK>

Lucas Molina <lm412 at is9.nyu.edu> wrote:-
> P.S.  in case my search is fruitless, how do you pronounce /kw/ at the
> end of a word?

Likely the /w/ component was voiceless at the end of a word or before a
voiceless consonant. For e.g. {teuc}, try saying {tecui} and then gradually
get rid of the /i/ sound without letting the /w/ become a vowel /u/.


From muyalbalam03 at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 14 08:48:15 2000
From: muyalbalam03 at hotmail.com (Roberto Tirado)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 01:48:15 PDT
Subject: can anyone translate this....
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.014815.PDT.MUYALBALAM03@HOTMAIL.COM>

"to pierce or touch the sky of your thoughts"

i would really appreciate anyones help .


- Roberto
muyalbalam03 at hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
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From gingeriw at stjohns.edu  Fri Apr 14 21:18:23 2000
From: gingeriw at stjohns.edu (Gingerich Willard P.)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:18:23 -0600
Subject: pipila
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.151823.0600.>

Listeros:
I'll take advantage of this (relative) lull on the list to ask about a word
that came up almost a year ago:  pipil.

Near the opening of the Ms. of 1558 (aka Leyenda de los soles), the
informant says of the destruction of the proto-people of the 3rd "sun":
   auh inic polliuhque tlequiahuilloque totolme mocuepque.   . . . inic
polliuhque pipiltin catca ye ica in axcan ic monotza cocone pipilpipil --

Lehmann translates (in German of course) "And thus they went to ruin:  they
were covered by the rain of fire; they turned themselves into chickens.  .
. . those who went to ruin this way, they were the pipiltin  (boys, knaves,
or princes, sovereigns).  That is why even to this day children are called
'Pipilpipil' (i.e., boys, knaves)"--and he provides a footnote on "pilli"
and on the Pipil of Central America.
Velazquez translates, "se volvieron gallinas.  . . . fueron pipiltin
(ninos);  por eso ahora se llama a los ninos pipilpipil (muchachitos)".
Bierhorst translates, "They were changed into turkeys.   . . . And when
they died they were children.  Therefore today they are called the baby
children".

I could never understand how a foundation myth, which has a clear
etiological function in all its versions, would want to say that a
generation (if we can call them that) of proto-people had been transformed
into our own, normal children, or, by implication, that all our children
come from the third age.  Such a translation seemed to contradict the
burden of the narrative itself ("our" present condition of human normality
derives from the fifth creation; the derivatives of other "suns" are
inferior creatures and aberrations).  So I translated these phrases, "and
thus they were destroyed, in a rain of fire;  they were all transformed to
birds.  . . . they became the Pipiles.   . . . This is why today children
are called pipilpipil, 'little gobblers'."    I speculated the Mexica
narrator(s) might be disparaging the Pipil dialect as "turkey-talk", sug
gested to me by Lehmann's note and the following entry in Santamaria's
Diccionario General de Americanismos:  "Pipiles. (Del Azteca pipil,
muchacho, porque en un principio hablaron el azteca en forma corrompida,
como lo hablaria un nino) Antiguas tribus indigenas de Centro America."

However, the discussion on-line made me question whether there was any
reliable attestation of pipil as "turkey" in any 16th or 17th century
record;  checking the usual suspects I could find none.
Therefore any use of "turkey" would appear suspect for this 1550s text.

I think today, I would translate, closer to Velazquez, "...They were turned
into birds.  ...They were children [at the time of transformation];  that's
why today children are called "little chirpers."

Who's correctly reading this narrator?  Or are we all lost?

[BTW, listeros who receive Estudios de C. Nahuatl may have seen my
translation of this ms. in the 1998 (#28) issue.  Unfortunately, I was not
able to review the galleys and a number of strange print errors crept in.
 Most importantly, however, my brief theory of the oral verse-phrase
structure perceivable in the transcribed text is almost impossible to see
in the sample as printed.  I would welcome the opportunity to send
corrected off-prints to anyone who is interested.]

Willard Gingerich
St. John's University
8000  Utopia Pkwy
Jamaica, NY 11349
718-990-1442  FAX 718-990-1894
gingeriw at stjohns.edu


From heatherhess at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 15 02:35:21 2000
From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 20:35:21 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.203521.0600.>

where is huitzitzilingo exactly!  thanks!  Yolohtzin

>From: Alfonso.Galan at level3.com
>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: RE:
>Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:55:43 -0700
>
>It's great to know there are others out there interested in learning
>Nahuatl.  Every year in the Spring, I go to Huitzitzilingo, Mexico on a
>mission trip.  It is an Indian village and the people have maintained =
>the
>Aztec culture and language.  I have been searching for some learning
>materials for a long time.  I just found two sources:
>
>http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/gateway.html - The Nahuatl gateway =
>has
>some very interesting information.  There is a link to books on =
>Nahuatl.
>Dr. Schwaller can copy (with permission of the author) the out of print =
>book
>Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar.  It's a two volume course that =
>focuses
>on Grammar but has a lot of basic language also.  I just received them =
>and
>am very impressed with the content.  I hope to be speaking Nahuatl by =
>the
>end of the year!
>
>http://languagelab.bh.indiana.edu/ - this is the language lab at =
>Indiana
>University.  They have three language tapes on Nahuatl.  They are from =
>the
>same author as the book referenced above but I am not yet sure if they
>compliment the books.  The tapes are led in Spanish and primarily focus =
>on
>Nahuatl grammar.  It's not very easy to understand without having a =
>command
>over the language....but I hope to get there.
>
>Hope this helps - and please send me any information on reference =
>materials
>you may find.
>
>p.s.  My email address is about to change so please use the one =
>referenced
>below for any future communication.  Thank you!
>
>Saludos,
>Alfonso Galan
>cogalan at msn.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Linda Velarde [mailto:refuge at vallecitos.org]
>Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 10:05 AM
>To: Multiple recipients of list
>Subject: Re:=20
>
>
>Dear Friends:
>
>I am also trying to learn Nahuatl by tapes.  Any helpful suggestions
>would be appriecated.
>abrazos
>linda velarde
>
>A Egli wrote:
> >=20
> > Dear N=E1huatl friends, dear John F. Schwaller,
> >=20
> > I intend to write a work about N=E1huatl and its influence on the =
>South
> > American Spanish.
> >=20
> > Among others I am searching for a CD or a cassette with some =
>N=E1huatl
>spoken
> > texts.
> >=20
> > Can someone help me?
> >=20
> > Yvonne
> > Switzerland

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From heatherhess at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 15 02:35:29 2000
From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 20:35:29 -0600
Subject: Not really about Spanish "Gods"
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.203529.0600.>

hola!  donde vive!  yo vive en canada ahora - regressa mexico en julio!!!!

Yolohtzin

>From: carlos.robles at valeo.com
>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: Not really about Spanish "Gods"
>Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:42:38 -0700
>
>Your comment is accurate, not exactly about the original mentioned subj=
>ect but
>very good.
>I am Mexican and I feel more proud of my Mexican part rather than my Sp=
>anish
>one, as you know we are the result of a mix of local inhabitants depend=
>ing on
>the region, Spaniards and Arabs who conquested Spain for 7 centuries. I=
>  have
>been in Spain and the people is not very nice neither with foreign peop=
>le nor
>with people from different Spanish regions.
>But my real interest is to emphasize that the language?s morphology ref=
>lect
>their speaking people habits, morals and behaviors.
>The Nahuatl has three different speaking formats:  plain, formal and ve=
>ry
>formal; the way the pure Aztecs were ennobling the human being.
>And the words themselves reflect the regard people has to others, for i=
>nstance
>"Tlasohkamahtli", Thanks means literately ?love to you through my mouth=
>?.
>I hope this message do not offend Spaniards but It is true.
>Best regards
>And thanks for your comment.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"Heather Hess" <heatherhess at hotmail.com> on 26/01/2000 02:25:20 PM
>
>Please respond to nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>
>To:   Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>cc:    (bcc: Carlos ROBLES/Sanluis/VWS/VALEO)
>Subject:  Re: Spanish "Gods"
>
>
>=
>
>I want to reply to this subject on a very personal note.  I am Canadian=
>  and
>have spent much of my last few years in Mexico.  I have had varied
>experiences learning Nahautl and am associated with Aztec Dancers so ha=
>ve
>first hand information.  These people that are my friends are hospitabl=
>e
>before anything ' they open up their doors ' give you food ' hospitalit=
>y '
>anything I ever need is just there.  The Spaniards when they came also
>received a warm welcome but abused and took advantage of the Aztecas!  =
>I can
>only say that if only the rest of the world could learn to open up thei=
>r
>doors to people the way Mexicans do we wouldn=B4t have so much trouble =
>in the
>world right now!  We must quit worrying about trivialities and get down=
>  to
>the basics!  We as a tiny particle of this world must learn to once aga=
>in
>respect and be open to people more than we are to material goods ' movi=
>es
>fit into that category ' movies are for entertainment ' they are not to=
>  be
>taken seriously ' people that see movies come to their own conclusions =
>'
>people that are aware will realize the misgivings of what is popular in=
>  the
>eyes of the public ' those that are not aware ' well ' for them there i=
>s no
>hope!  Forgive the format of this message ' I have to pay for computer =
>time
>so didn=B4t stop to format this opinion!
>
>Itzpapalotzin
>
>
> >From: Richard Haly <Richard.Haly at colorado.edu>
> >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
> >To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> >Subject: Spanish "Gods"
> >Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:41:01 -0700
> >
> > > The entire
> > > "Cortes-Quetzalcoatl" scenario appears only in the later accounts. =
>While
> > > it is fairly clear that Nahuas applied the term "teotl" to the Span=
>ish
> > > early on, it is also clear that the Spanish thought they were being=
>
> >called
> > > "gods" and that they relished the idea, despite the fact that the N=
>ahuas
> > > never revered them as gods. To pretend that identifying "whites" as=
>  gods
> > > is a generic "native" reaction to "superior strangers" is arguably
> >racist.>>
> >
> >The problem with thinking that Nahuas considered Spaniards to be gods
> >resides not in Nahua "naivete" nor in Spanish presumption but in our o=
>wn
> >unexamined assumptions of what gods are. If we go back to what Nahuas
> >called
> >Spaniards we find teotl and we also find that they spoke of their own
> >rulers
> >using the same term. The issue is  not one of deifying Spaniards but o=
>f
> >humanizing "gods." What is teotl? Recall that commoners could not look=
>
> >directly at Moteuczomah just as they could not look directly at the su=
>n.
> >Too
> >much tonalli (radiance). They would be blinded. It is lots more produc=
>tive
> >to think of both Nahua rulers and Spaniards as these sort of man-gods.=
>
> >
> >What I don't understand are all these stereotypical interpretations on=
>
> >either side. Perhaps it's time to again trot out a quote that appears =
>every
> >so often here: Walt Kelley (creator of Pogo): "We have met the enemy a=
>nd he
> >is us."
> >
> >Richard Haly
> >
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>=
>
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From njcolma1 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 15 02:36:28 2000
From: njcolma1 at yahoo.com (Nick)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 19:36:28 -0700
Subject: New name
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.193628.0700.NJCOLMA1@YAHOO.COM>

Hello,
my name is Nicholas Javier and I'm a college student
in California.  I've been involved with an Aztec dance
group there, which is an off-shoot of a larger group,
Xitontekiza Atl-Tlachinolli, for almost an entire
semster now.  Recently, today in fact, I earned the
honor of a nahuatl name: "Ixtac yoalli."  I've heard
of the word "yoalli," but I've also heard the word,
"yaolli," and I'm confused over which one was really
meant for me.  My tlatoani gave me this name "White
Warrior," and I think either he got things mixed up,
or I did.  I've also done some research using the
resources you provided, and I picked up the word
"yaotl" as the word for war.  This complicates things
more, 'cause if my tlatoani meant warrior and just
mixed up the spelling, did he also add the -lli
incorrectly?  I'd really like to clear this up, as
"yoalli" means night(I think), among other things, and
I don't think he meant "White Night."
Thank you,
Nick

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com


From heatherhess at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 15 03:00:23 2000
From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 21:00:23 -0600
Subject: Not really about Spanish "Gods"
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.210023.0600.>

i am very sorry - i don't know how this happened - i was sending a message
to a totally different person!  sorry for the confusion!  Heather

>From: "Heather Hess" <heatherhess at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: Not really about Spanish "Gods"
>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 20:35:29 -0600
>
>hola!  donde vive!  yo vive en canada ahora - regressa mexico en julio!!!!
>
>Yolohtzin
>
> >From: carlos.robles at valeo.com
> >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
> >To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: Not really about Spanish "Gods"
> >Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:42:38 -0700
> >
> >Your comment is accurate, not exactly about the original mentioned subj=
> >ect but
> >very good.
> >I am Mexican and I feel more proud of my Mexican part rather than my Sp=
> >anish
> >one, as you know we are the result of a mix of local inhabitants depend=
> >ing on
> >the region, Spaniards and Arabs who conquested Spain for 7 centuries. I=
> >  have
> >been in Spain and the people is not very nice neither with foreign peop=
> >le nor
> >with people from different Spanish regions.
> >But my real interest is to emphasize that the language?s morphology ref=
> >lect
> >their speaking people habits, morals and behaviors.
> >The Nahuatl has three different speaking formats:  plain, formal and ve=
> >ry
> >formal; the way the pure Aztecs were ennobling the human being.
> >And the words themselves reflect the regard people has to others, for i=
> >nstance
> >"Tlasohkamahtli", Thanks means literately ?love to you through my mouth=
> >?.
> >I hope this message do not offend Spaniards but It is true.
> >Best regards
> >And thanks for your comment.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >"Heather Hess" <heatherhess at hotmail.com> on 26/01/2000 02:25:20 PM
> >
> >Please respond to nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
> >
> >To:   Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> >cc:    (bcc: Carlos ROBLES/Sanluis/VWS/VALEO)
> >Subject:  Re: Spanish "Gods"
> >
> >
> >=
> >
> >I want to reply to this subject on a very personal note.  I am Canadian=
> >  and
> >have spent much of my last few years in Mexico.  I have had varied
> >experiences learning Nahautl and am associated with Aztec Dancers so ha=
> >ve
> >first hand information.  These people that are my friends are hospitabl=
> >e
> >before anything ' they open up their doors ' give you food ' hospitalit=
> >y '
> >anything I ever need is just there.  The Spaniards when they came also
> >received a warm welcome but abused and took advantage of the Aztecas!  =
> >I can
> >only say that if only the rest of the world could learn to open up thei=
> >r
> >doors to people the way Mexicans do we wouldn=B4t have so much trouble =
> >in the
> >world right now!  We must quit worrying about trivialities and get down=
> >  to
> >the basics!  We as a tiny particle of this world must learn to once aga=
> >in
> >respect and be open to people more than we are to material goods ' movi=
> >es
> >fit into that category ' movies are for entertainment ' they are not to=
> >  be
> >taken seriously ' people that see movies come to their own conclusions =
> >'
> >people that are aware will realize the misgivings of what is popular in=
> >  the
> >eyes of the public ' those that are not aware ' well ' for them there i=
> >s no
> >hope!  Forgive the format of this message ' I have to pay for computer =
> >time
> >so didn=B4t stop to format this opinion!
> >
> >Itzpapalotzin
> >
> >
> > >From: Richard Haly <Richard.Haly at colorado.edu>
> > >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
> > >To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> > >Subject: Spanish "Gods"
> > >Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:41:01 -0700
> > >
> > > > The entire
> > > > "Cortes-Quetzalcoatl" scenario appears only in the later accounts. =
> >While
> > > > it is fairly clear that Nahuas applied the term "teotl" to the Span=
> >ish
> > > > early on, it is also clear that the Spanish thought they were being=
> >
> > >called
> > > > "gods" and that they relished the idea, despite the fact that the N=
> >ahuas
> > > > never revered them as gods. To pretend that identifying "whites" as=
> >  gods
> > > > is a generic "native" reaction to "superior strangers" is arguably
> > >racist.>>
> > >
> > >The problem with thinking that Nahuas considered Spaniards to be gods
> > >resides not in Nahua "naivete" nor in Spanish presumption but in our o=
> >wn
> > >unexamined assumptions of what gods are. If we go back to what Nahuas
> > >called
> > >Spaniards we find teotl and we also find that they spoke of their own
> > >rulers
> > >using the same term. The issue is  not one of deifying Spaniards but o=
> >f
> > >humanizing "gods." What is teotl? Recall that commoners could not look=
> >
> > >directly at Moteuczomah just as they could not look directly at the su=
> >n.
> > >Too
> > >much tonalli (radiance). They would be blinded. It is lots more produc=
> >tive
> > >to think of both Nahua rulers and Spaniards as these sort of man-gods.=
> >
> > >
> > >What I don't understand are all these stereotypical interpretations on=
> >
> > >either side. Perhaps it's time to again trot out a quote that appears =
> >every
> > >so often here: Walt Kelley (creator of Pogo): "We have met the enemy a=
> >nd he
> > >is us."
> > >
> > >Richard Haly
> > >
> >
> >______________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >=
> >
> >
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From fjgs at servidor.unam.mx  Sat Apr 15 03:12:57 2000
From: fjgs at servidor.unam.mx (Ehecatecolotl)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 21:12:57 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.211257.0600.>

There is a Huitzitzilco in the northern part of Veracruz. I don?t know if it
is the one referenced below.

Getting to Huitzitzilco is a bit of an odissey. You would have to drive up
to Pachuca (if you travel from Mexico City) and then take the road to
Huejutla de Reyes, then take the exit towards Tuzanapa, Drive past that and
where the road forks take the left road towards Zontecomatlan.  Once you?ve
driven past Zontecomatlan look for the exit towards El Naranjal. People
there should give you directions. Depending on the time of the year you
travel you might have to walk to get there. The little town is in the heart
of the sierra. If you can handle driving on the trails then you can drive
all the way up to Huitzitzilco. The astonishing scenery makes worth the
trip, not to mention the contact with native speakers. Ximomacehui!
----- Mensaje original -----
De: Heather Hess <heatherhess at hotmail.com>
Para: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Enviado: Viernes, 14 de Abril de 2000 08:35 p.m.
Asunto: RE:


> where is huitzitzilingo exactly!  thanks!  Yolohtzin
>
> >From: Alfonso.Galan at level3.com
> >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
> >To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> >Subject: RE:
> >Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:55:43 -0700
> >
> >It's great to know there are others out there interested in learning
> >Nahuatl.  Every year in the Spring, I go to Huitzitzilingo, Mexico on a
> >mission trip...


From xochiquetzal at earthlink.net  Sat Apr 15 03:37:55 2000
From: xochiquetzal at earthlink.net (Odilia Rodriguez)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 21:37:55 -0600
Subject: Not really about Spanish "Gods"
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.213755.0600.>

I am not sure about your comments about Spain or Spaniards.  I am a Chicana
living in California and am proud of my Mexican ancestors.  Sometimes while
in Mexico, Mexicans too have an aditude like, "We don't really consider you
to be Mexican--you are American."  I just think--people come in all shades
and colors and from many geographical places with all kinds of ideas and
ways of thinking.  It is good to be proud of who you are where you come from
and especially who your ancestors were but not to the point where it causes
problems.  Like war!

I am wondering if Tlasohkamahtli means Thanks or does it  mean the
other--love to you through my mouth or are you saying this is what the
Mexica said instead of saying thanks the way we do?

Gracias,
Odilia
>
>> From: carlos.robles at valeo.com
>> Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>> To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>> Subject: Re: Not really about Spanish "Gods"
>> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:42:38 -0700
snip>
>> "Tlasohkamahtli", Thanks means literately ?love to you through my mouth=
>> ?.
>> I hope this message do not offend Spaniards but It is true.
>> Best regards
>> And thanks for your comment.


From fjgs at servidor.unam.mx  Sat Apr 15 04:15:16 2000
From: fjgs at servidor.unam.mx (Ehecatecolotl)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 22:15:16 -0600
Subject: Tlazohcamati ahnozo ttazohcamahtli?
Message-ID: <FRI.14.APR.2000.221516.0600.>

Well, I seem to be in my talkative lapse -OK, writeative lapse- . I hope the
very learned members of the list will come up with opportune comments on
this.
I think the expression is tlazohcamati and it is short for nimitz
tlazohcamati or nimitz tlazohcamachililia which would be a transitive verb
meaning I feel you lovingly, since tlazohca would be the adverb and mati the
verb feel, or know.

And yes, I guess Carlos means what our ancestors (totlazohtatzitzinhuan,
totlazohcoltzitztinhuan) said instead of thanks, gracias, mercy, etc.

Sorry about the inaccuracy and brevity of my comment.
Ehecatecolotl.
----- Mensaje original -----
De: Odilia Rodriguez <xochiquetzal at earthlink.net>
Para: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Enviado: Viernes, 14 de Abril de 2000 09:37 p.m.
Asunto: Re: Not really about Spanish "Gods"


> I am not sure about your comments about Spain or Spaniards.  I am a
Chicana
> living in California and am proud of my Mexican ancestors.  Sometimes
while
> in Mexico, Mexicans too have an aditude like, "We don't really consider
you
> to be Mexican--you are American."  I just think--people come in all shades
> and colors and from many geographical places with all kinds of ideas and
> ways of thinking.  It is good to be proud of who you are where you come
from
> and especially who your ancestors were but not to the point where it
causes
> problems.  Like war!
>
> I am wondering if Tlasohkamahtli means Thanks or does it  mean the
> other--love to you through my mouth or are you saying this is what the
> Mexica said instead of saying thanks the way we do?
>
> Gracias,
> Odilia
> >
> >> From: carlos.robles at valeo.com
> >> Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
> >> To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> >> Subject: Re: Not really about Spanish "Gods"
> >> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:42:38 -0700
> snip>
> >> "Tlasohkamahtli", Thanks means literately ?love to you through my
mouth=
> >> ?.
> >> I hope this message do not offend Spaniards but It is true.
> >> Best regards
> >> And thanks for your comment.
>
>


From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Sat Apr 15 09:14:12 2000
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 11:14:12 +0200
Subject: New name
Message-ID: <SAT.15.APR.2000.111412.0200.JUERGEN.STOWASSER@UNIVIE.AC.AT>

yaotl=warrior (and also an epithet for Tezcatlipoca)
yo(h)ualli=night
iztac=white (like salt) (think of the volcano Iztaccihuatl!)
         (and not iXtac)
Nick schrieb:

> Hello,
> my name is Nicholas Javier and I'm a college student
> in California.  I've been involved with an Aztec dance
> group there, which is an off-shoot of a larger group,
> Xitontekiza Atl-Tlachinolli, for almost an entire
> semster now.  Recently, today in fact, I earned the
> honor of a nahuatl name: "Ixtac yoalli."  I've heard
> of the word "yoalli," but I've also heard the word,
> "yaolli," and I'm confused over which one was really
> meant for me.  My tlatoani gave me this name "White
> Warrior," and I think either he got things mixed up,
> or I did.  I've also done some research using the
> resources you provided, and I picked up the word
> "yaotl" as the word for war.  This complicates things
> more, 'cause if my tlatoani meant warrior and just
> mixed up the spelling, did he also add the -lli
> incorrectly?  I'd really like to clear this up, as
> "yoalli" means night(I think), among other things, and
> I don't think he meant "White Night."
> Thank you,
> Nick
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
> http://invites.yahoo.com

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
Austria
tel: 01/ 524 54 60
0676/ 398 66 79


From sennomo at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 16 20:17:56 2000
From: sennomo at hotmail.com (sennomo la Esperantisto)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 14:17:56 -0600
Subject: attitudes
Message-ID: <SUN.16.APR.2000.141756.0600.>

I'm sorry for taking us further off-topic, but I think this is an important
issue, and it is certainly related to the desire to learn nahuatl.

I'm a gringo living in Mexico City.  From my experience in a few countries
(counting the U.S., as well), I've found that there are always people who
want to feel superior to others, and many who believe in some kind of racial
"purity".  When you're mixed like majority of American (both continents)
inhabitants, you'll always run into the line "you're not really Spanish
(English, German, whatever)".

I think too many of us, in our quest to discover ourselves, look to others
to tell us, or to dead ancestors to guide us.  I've met quite a few people
(my relatives included) who go on genealogical quests and try to learn
nearly-extinct languages to recapture something they feel they have lost (or
has been stolen from them).  This bugs me because it tells me that people
aren't accepting themselves for who they are.  I have met very few Americans
or Mexicans who fully accept that they don't fit into the old-world racial
or national classifications.  For example, a number of (visibly indigenous)
Mexicans refer to themselves as "Spaniards" while my relatives in
Pennsylvania call themselves "English".  A lot of us still have yet to get
over the shame of being the product of rape or being the descendants of
slave-owners.

So, to try to sum up (I could go on for quite a while), I'm no more English
than my girlfriend is Zapotec...and no less.  I think we should keep that in
perspective.  I hope I'm making sense.

--Ben

>From: Odilia Rodriguez <xochiquetzal at earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: Not really about Spanish "Gods"
>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 21:37:55 -0600
>
>I am not sure about your comments about Spain or Spaniards.  I am a Chicana
>living in California and am proud of my Mexican ancestors.  Sometimes while
>in Mexico, Mexicans too have an aditude like, "We don't really consider you
>to be Mexican--you are American."  I just think--people come in all shades
>and colors and from many geographical places with all kinds of ideas and
>ways of thinking.  It is good to be proud of who you are where you come
>from
>and especially who your ancestors were but not to the point where it causes
>problems.  Like war!


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Sun Apr 16 23:28:55 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (schwallr at selway.umt.edu)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:28:55 -0600
Subject: Spaniards
Message-ID: <SUN.16.APR.2000.172855.0600.>

Dear Subscribers,

I'm sorry, but the current discussion on ethnic identity really has nothing
to do with the stated purpose of the discussion list, and I must ask you to
carry it on off-line.

J. F. Schwaller
List owner


From notoca at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 17 23:02:07 2000
From: notoca at hotmail.com (Red Fox)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:02:07 WST
Subject: New name
Message-ID: <MON.17.APR.2000.230207.WST.NOTOCA@HOTMAIL.COM>

I always thought yaotl meant "enemy" and only took on the meaning of "war"
when it was embedded in compounds. The stand alone word for war is yaoyotl.

Isn't the word for warrior teyaochihuani?

With regards to the name "Ixtac yoalli" I have seen the form yoalli which
means night. It's possibly another spelling for yohualli. So,  ixtac (iztac)
yoalli would most likely mean "white night".

Is saying, iztac teyaochihuani, an acceptable way of saying "white warrior"?

===========================================
>and I picked up the word "yaotl" as the word for war.

>yaotl=warrior (and also an epithet for Tezcatlipoca)
>yo(h)ualli=night
>iztac=white (like salt) (think of the volcano Iztaccihuatl!)
>          (and not iXtac)
>Nick schrieb:
>
> > Hello,
> > my name is Nicholas Javier and I'm a college student
> > in California.  I've been involved with an Aztec dance
> > group there, which is an off-shoot of a larger group,
> > Xitontekiza Atl-Tlachinolli, for almost an entire
> > semster now.  Recently, today in fact, I earned the
> > honor of a nahuatl name: "Ixtac yoalli."  I've heard
> > of the word "yoalli," but I've also heard the word,
> > "yaolli," and I'm confused over which one was really
> > meant for me.  My tlatoani gave me this name "White
> > Warrior," and I think either he got things mixed up,
> > or I did.  I've also done some research using the
> > resources you provided, and I picked up the word
> > "yaotl" as the word for war.  This complicates things
> > more, 'cause if my tlatoani meant warrior and just
> > mixed up the spelling, did he also add the -lli
> > incorrectly?  I'd really like to clear this up, as
> > "yoalli" means night(I think), among other things, and
> > I don't think he meant "White Night."
> > Thank you,
> > Nick
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
> > http://invites.yahoo.com
>
>--
>Juergen Stowasser
>Burggasse 114/2/8
>A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
>Austria
>tel: 01/ 524 54 60
>0676/ 398 66 79
>
>

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From heatherhess at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 17 20:24:31 2000
From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:24:31 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <MON.17.APR.2000.142431.0600.>

Alfonso.Galan at level3.com

In one message the above e-mail was referred to regarding learning Nahuatl
and Aztec medicine in Mexico in the summer.  I sent an e-mail to this
address but the system administrator intervened saying this address is not
correct.  Could you please help me direct a message to Alfonso!  thanks!
Yolohtzin

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From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Apr 18 20:53:17 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:53:17 -0600
Subject: New Book on Sahagun
Message-ID: <TUE.18.APR.2000.145317.0600.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

Browne, Walden, 1964-
   Sahagun and the transition to modernity /   Norman, Okla. :
 University of Oklahoma Press,  2000.
ISBN: 0806132337 (alk. paper)
LC: F1219.S13917  B76 2000
Price: $    34.95


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com  Thu Apr 20 04:53:17 2000
From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 00:53:17 EDT
Subject: New Movie
Message-ID: <THU.20.APR.2000.005317.EDT.>

Dear Listeros,

    My friend, Victor Rocha, who runs the California Indian Gaming ( and
other indigenous information) web site sent me this concerning "La Otra
Conquista", a film which should be of interest to many on this service.

                                            Bendiciones a los cuatro vientos,
                                            Henry
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Preparing a 'Conquest'



By LORENZA MUNOZ, Times Staff Writer






     The Spanish conquest of the Americas is usually told as a quick and easy
story: They came, they conquered, they converted the Indians into Christians.

     Indeed, "history is written for the victors and what they leave out are
the losers," as academic historian Arthur Drexler noted.

     But Mexican director Salvador Carrasco wanted to tell the losers' story.
He wanted to write about the culture that wasn't totally conquered as
evidenced by the strong indigenous heartbeat that remains an integral part of
Mexico. Surely, Carrasco contemplated, the Spaniards must have learned
something from the richly complex and sophisticated civilizations they
attempted to obliterate.

     And thus "The Other Conquest," or "La Otra Conquista," Carrasco's first
feature film, was born.

     The movie, released in Mexico in April 1999 by 20th Century Fox's
international branch, was a phenomenal success, grossing more than $2 million
in theaters. A measly sum by Hollywood standards, perhaps, but it broke
Mexican box-office records.

     Never in his wildest dreams did Carrasco think his movie--an intense
colonial-era picture in Spanish and Nahuatl (the language of the
Aztecs)--would ever strike a populist chord.

     One year after its release in Mexico, Southern California audiences can
see the picture. Although epic foreign films like "The Other Conquest" are
usually released in one or two art-house theaters, the distributor is
venturing that the film could have a broader appeal. Carrasco's film, in
Spanish with English subtitles, opens today in 70 theaters, both art house
and mainstream, throughout Los Angeles County and outlying areas like Orange
County, Santa Barbara and Palm Springs.

     At the premiere last week, nearly 200 people were turned away from the
packed Academy of Arts and Sciences' Samuel Goldwyn Theater. Distributor
Mitch Goldman, former president of marketing and distribution for New Line
Cinema, says he is betting the film will play broadly to Latino audiences
here as well as the non-Latino art-house crowd. The Spanish and English
marketing campaign cost nearly $2 million, a significant amount for a
one-region release.

     "I was interested in pushing the limits on what the Latino audience
could go for," Goldman said. "I was not interested in getting this out to
only a couple of art theaters. While I don't see this as a picture that would
work in every theater in America, I do believe that it has a very strong
viability and commerciality for a Los Angeles audience."


     Film Intriguing Many in the Area

     So far, through word of mouth, the film seems to be intriguing many in
the Southland, from the hierarchy of the Catholic archdiocese to radio
personalities like KCRW-FM's Tom Schnabel, who presented a show on the film's
music, to students filling up auditoriums at screenings in Orange County to
KCET-TV's "Life & Times" doing a segment on the film.

     To be sure, the film is not light entertainment.

     "This film is not about somebody becoming famous, getting rich or
getting the girl," said Carrasco, a 32-year-old Mexico City native. "It's
about a spiritual quest and about something nobody can take away."

     The story, which Carrasco began writing in 1990 during his last two
years at New York University's film school, begins in 1521, the year the
Spaniards conquered the Aztec empire. The conquest is seen through the eyes
of Topiltzin, an Aztec codex painter played by Mexican actor Damian Delgado,
as the Spaniards kill his relatives, destroy the capital of Tenochtitlan and
torture him and attempt to convert him to Christianity.

     But Topiltzin rages against a Catholic priest's efforts to change his
spiritual beliefs. The priest learns a profound lesson in tolerance and the
true meaning of Christianity as he watches Topiltzin struggle with the forced
conversion.

     Initially, however, the film had many strikes going against it. Carrasco
and his producer, Alvaro Domingo, were first-timers, pitching a 500-year-old
story with no stars.

     "We would hear things like, 'People don't like period films, people
don't like to think when they go to movies,' " Carrasco said. "At one point
they said, 'Do you realize the risk involved in having an Indian
protagonist?' And we said, 'What risk? That is one of the greatest assets of
the film.' "


     The Movie Took Six Years to Shoot

     Finding money to finance the film, which cost $3.9 million, was a slow
process that forced the filmmakers to scatter 50 days of shooting through six
years. Some scenes were shot in 1992 and finished years later. The actors
literally got older as the filming progressed, with some growing gray hair, a
few more wrinkles and pounds added to their frames in the final scenes.

     The movie is nearly 100% independently financed, a rarity in Mexico,
where the government's film institute usually pitches in with half of a
film's budget. Domingo got money from sources ranging from Jesuit priests to
entrepreneurs to musicians.

     "With the seed money we shot three sequences--20 minutes worth--in
1992," said Alvaro, whose father, Placido Domingo, pitched in as executive
producer. "I went out with that tape and showed it to people who had turned
me away. I would show them and say, 'Look, we are serious and this is what we
can do.' Then they got excited about it."

     Following its success in Mexico, the filmmakers screened their movie for
Fox executives here. But Fox was not interested in releasing the film to a
wider audience. So Carrasco was referred to Goldman, whose company, Hombre D'
Oro, is distributing the movie. Both the filmmakers and Goldman agreed from
the outset that the film should be released to both the art-house and broader
Latino audience in Southern California. Depending on how well the film does,
the movie could expand to Texas, Northern California and possibly New York,
Goldman said. The film thus far has only been seen in Mexico, where it is
already available on video.


     Filmmakers Avoided Good vs. Bad Story Line

     From the beginning, the filmmakers set out to make a movie that explored
the conquest with as few cliches as possible.

     "We were not going to make a film about the goodies and the baddies,"
Carrasco said. "You end up having a racist approach by doing that. We were
never interested in the idea that the Indians were so innocent and pure, and
showing them in a mystical trance playing the flute. I think that is
disrespectful. These were complex cultures with inner contradictions."

     Although the Aztecs were very sophisticated and enlightened people on
many levels, they were also ruthless warriors who killed and enslaved many
other Indian tribes in the quest to expand their own empire. In fact, the
Spaniards did not win without assistance. They were allied with several
tribes, eager to reap revenge on the Aztecs.

     "Why did the Tlaxcaltecan Indians ally themselves with the Spaniards?"
Carrasco said. "With our 21st century eyes we say, 'Traitors!' But the Aztecs
were a warlike, tremendous empire in expansion. They had met their match. All
of a sudden what they had been doing to other people was being done to them."

     By the same token, Carrasco and Domingo (born of a Spanish father and a
Mexican mother) did not sugarcoat the massacre of Indians at the hands of the
Spaniards. It is estimated that more than 8 million Indians died between 1521
and 1531, and the Catholic hierarchy stood by as witnesses, if not
facilitators, as it happened.

     "This was a genocide," Carrasco said. "The face of the American
continent changed forever. . . . Many of the things that happened back then
are still unresolved five centuries later. We are still seeking our
identity."


     Placido Domingo Gets Assist on Musical Score

     The filmmakers played with this notion of identity and melding of
different cultures with the film's musical score as well. Taking advantage of
Placido Domingo's support and friends around the world, the filmmakers put
together an original score. Carrasco's wife, Andrea Sanderson, a
Juilliard-trained violinist, oversaw the musical production. They hired noted
composers Jorge Reyes and Samuel Zyman to create original indigenous and
Western pieces, respectively. The Academy of St. Martin in the Fields
performs the music and Placido Domingo sings a final aria, composed by Zyman
with lyrics by Carrasco, that deals with tolerance and acceptance.

     "This story is a universal subject," Carrasco said. "What culture in the
world has not undergone a process of colonization, conquest or attempted
conversion? We had someone from Poland telling us, 'God, this is us with the
Russians!' That is the magic of cinema!"


http://www.latimes.com/print/calendar/20000419/t000036721.html


From heatherhess at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 24 00:12:46 2000
From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 17:12:46 PDT
Subject: Pre-Hispanic Medicine
Message-ID: <SUN.23.APR.2000.171246.PDT.HEATHERHESS@HOTMAIL.COM>

I am hoping that someone could please give me info regarding Aztec Herbs and
Medicine - either references to books or where I can study in Mexico!
Thanks!  Yolohtzin
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From notoca at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 27 15:31:26 2000
From: notoca at hotmail.com (Red Fox)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 15:31:26 WST
Subject: Nahuatl Translations
Message-ID: <THU.27.APR.2000.153126.WST.NOTOCA@HOTMAIL.COM>

I have come across a few words that I have not been able to translate
properly and was hoping someone on the list would be able to help with them.

They are:

1) Xiquittacan - I have had no luck with this word.

2) Tlacempanahuia - I think the stems here are tla = something; cem = one,
whole, entire; panahuia = to surpass, exceed, cross. Would this mean "to
surpass (exceed) entirely (wholly) at something"?

3) Tlahtolnahuatilli - I think the stems are tlahtolli = word, speech;
nahuatilli = law. This would say "word/speech law", however, this does not
mean anything to me. Is this an idiom for something else?

4) Titecpillahtoah - I don't understand this one. I think it might be a verb
in the 2nd person because of the prefix (?) "ti" but I'm not sure. I also
think that I see the word for nobleman (tecpilli) but this is a bit of a
stretch as I cannot make any sense with it.

Any help with these translations would be greatly appreciated.

Thankyou

EZR


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From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Thu Apr 27 17:01:25 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 11:01:25 -0600
Subject: Nahuatl Translations
Message-ID: <THU.27.APR.2000.110125.0600.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

At 03:31 PM 4/27/2000 WST, you wrote:
>
>1) Xiquittacan - I have had no luck with this word.
>
>

This is very straight forward :
xi- optative prefix + qui- direct object pronoun + itta (to see) + -can
optative plural marker

See It!  (addressed to more than one person)


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From notoca at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 29 09:29:53 2000
From: notoca at hotmail.com (Chichiltic Coyotl)
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 09:29:53 WST
Subject: Nahuatl Translations
Message-ID: <SAT.29.APR.2000.092953.WST.NOTOCA@HOTMAIL.COM>

Tlazohcamati ipampa in tenanquililiztin.


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From Ian.Robertson at asu.edu  Sun Apr 30 22:48:52 2000
From: Ian.Robertson at asu.edu (Ian Robertson)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 15:48:52 -0700
Subject: FW: lenguas indigenas de mexico
Message-ID: <SUN.30.APR.2000.154852.0700.>

There is an article in La Jornada today (Sunday, April 30, 2000) in the
section
'Estados' that talks about the decline in the number of indigenous languages
speakers in Mexico. The URL is:
http://www.jornada.unam.mx/index.html
The article is in Spanish.

Oralia Cabrera
Department of Anthropology
Arizona State University
Tempe, AZ, 85287-2402
Oralia.Cabrera at asu.edu