From info at abbateconsulting.com  Fri Aug 11 08:00:58 2000
From: info at abbateconsulting.com (Abbate Consulting)
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:00:58 +0200
Subject: Summer Holydays
Message-ID: <FRI.11.AUG.2000.100058.0200.>

This msg is to inform you that our office will be closed since August 18th until September 4th.

Best regards

A.ABBATE
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From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx  Mon Aug 14 18:50:18 2000
From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 13:50:18 -0500
Subject: tla:n vs. titlan
Message-ID: <MON.14.AUG.2000.135018.0500.>

I'm sorry, I know this has been answered before, but as far as tla:n vs
ti+tlan, which is correct, the Analytical Dictionary or the Foundation
Course?
    Techtlapopolhuica
    John Sullivan
    Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas


From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Aug 15 00:38:19 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 20:38:19 -0400
Subject: tla:n vs. titlan
Message-ID: <MON.14.AUG.2000.203819.0400.>

Oh my gosh!  Previously it was posted to the list that I had reversed these
things in a dashed-off message to a listero.  I was embarrassed and pointed
out to everyone that the published dictionary is the one to trust.  Now it
turns out that the reversal also appears on p. 43 of the Foundation Course.
Please, please, please trust the dictionary.

In the Foundation course, what has been reversed is the glosses.  Where it
reads "-tlan 'near' and -tla:n 'below'" it should read "-tlan 'below' and
-tla:n 'near.'  The following business about the ligature -ti- being used
with -tlan is correct, but then the glosses are reversed again in the two
examples.

It's bizarre that so many classes have gone through the Foundation Course
without this particular glitch coming to our attention.  Thanks, John, for
finally spotting it!

Fran

----------
>From: John Sullivan <jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx>
>To: nahuat-l <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
>Subject: tla:n vs. titlan
>Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000, 2:50 PM
>

> I'm sorry, I know this has been answered before, but as far as tla:n vs
> ti+tlan, which is correct, the Analytical Dictionary or the Foundation
> Course?
>     Techtlapopolhuica
>     John Sullivan
>     Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
>


From indus56 at telusplanet.net  Tue Aug 15 04:28:21 2000
From: indus56 at telusplanet.net (Paul Anderson)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:28:21 -0600
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <MON.14.AUG.2000.222821.0600.>

Dear fellow subscribers to Nahuat-l:

I’m a new subscriber and this is my first posting. I’ve had some initial
difficulty accessing the archives, so am not sure whether it’s customary
for newbies here to introduce themselves. As will quickly be apparent,
I’m not a professional in the field of Nahuatl studies.

I’m currently wrapping up my first novel, based in part on the life of
Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, and am delighted to be able to say that it
has just been accepted by Random House of Canada. While in Mexico on a
research trip in 1995, I had the great delight of speaking with Dr.
Patrick Johannsen (sp.) at UNAM for a couple of hours about Sor Juana’s
use of Nahuatl in her poetry.

Did he, I asked, have any opinion on just how well she used or spoke the
language?

By sheer happenstance he was then completing a paper on the topic, and
felt her usage to be highly sophisticated. This was consistent with some
notions I’d been noodling with regarding her first 11 years of life in
Nepantla and Panoyan. My publisher has asked for more from this period
and I’m happy to try to oblige. It’s natural to suppose there were a
number of Nahua speakers among the workers of both haciendas. I’ve come
up with a Nahua-speaking wetnurse, whose daughter is Juana’s age, and
her best friend.

In one chapter I have her wetnurse and best friend teaching her Nahua
proverbs during a long, bumpy ride by mule cart from Nepantla through
Chimalhuacan and into Nepantla. I’ve been working with a few of the
proverbs published in Thelma Sullivan’s _A Scattering of Jades_.

If there were anyone out there willing to look over the chapter as a
whole, I would of course be thrilled.

In the meantime, I have so far a few words or phrases I’m looking for
the Nahua equivalent of:

“Yes, hurry up.”
(Spoken, or rather parroted, impatiently by an imperious two-year-old
(Juana) to a small group of Macehual fieldhands.)

“Twins”
I have “cocoa” for serpents, as in, perhaps, “dragon twins” but these
two little girls fancy themselves twins also. Would “Cocoa” (pl.?) be
something they might run through a courtyard shouting as the equivalent
of: [we are] Twins! Mellisas! Cocoas!

“Ixayac”
I have this for “face”. It is a rock face, but the two girls call their
secret place that because it looks like a human face or mask. (There has
been discussion of masks already in the chapter.)

I know how it is with long postings – the shorter, the easier to answer.
So please feel free to weigh in with only one small bit.

And please accept my heartfelt thanks in advance.

Yours sincerely,

Paul Anderson


From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Aug 15 10:18:13 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 06:18:13 -0400
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <TUE.15.AUG.2000.061813.0400.>

The fact of the matter is that in the collected works of Sor Juana there are
just two poems that reflect her knowledge of Nahuatl.  One poem is entirely
in Nahuatl, and it contains numbers of infelicities of the sort that reflect
Spanish interference.  The other is a parody of how Nahuatl speakers speak
Spanish and is very much on the mark.

My guess is that she was very fluent in spoken Nahuatl that she learned by
ear as a child, but when she applied the extraordinarily high standard she
set for herself in her literary work, she realized that she did not command
the language's complex rhetorical structure sufficiently to write the
beautiful poetry she produced in Spanish, so she did not write more.

Fran Karttunen

----------
>From: Paul Anderson <indus56 at telusplanet.net>
>To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
>Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
>Date: Tue, Aug 15, 2000, 12:28 AM
>

> Dear fellow subscribers to Nahuat-l:
>
> I’m a new subscriber and this is my first posting. I’ve had some initial
> difficulty accessing the archives, so am not sure whether it’s customary
> for newbies here to introduce themselves. As will quickly be apparent,
> I’m not a professional in the field of Nahuatl studies.
>
> I’m currently wrapping up my first novel, based in part on the life of
> Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, and am delighted to be able to say that it
> has just been accepted by Random House of Canada. While in Mexico on a
> research trip in 1995, I had the great delight of speaking with Dr.
> Patrick Johannsen (sp.) at UNAM for a couple of hours about Sor Juana’s
> use of Nahuatl in her poetry.
>
> Did he, I asked, have any opinion on just how well she used or spoke the
> language?
>
> By sheer happenstance he was then completing a paper on the topic, and
> felt her usage to be highly sophisticated. This was consistent with some
> notions I’d been noodling with regarding her first 11 years of life in
> Nepantla and Panoyan. My publisher has asked for more from this period
> and I’m happy to try to oblige. It’s natural to suppose there were a
> number of Nahua speakers among the workers of both haciendas. I’ve come
> up with a Nahua-speaking wetnurse, whose daughter is Juana’s age, and
> her best friend.
>
> In one chapter I have her wetnurse and best friend teaching her Nahua
> proverbs during a long, bumpy ride by mule cart from Nepantla through
> Chimalhuacan and into Nepantla. I’ve been working with a few of the
> proverbs published in Thelma Sullivan’s _A Scattering of Jades_.
>
> If there were anyone out there willing to look over the chapter as a
> whole, I would of course be thrilled.
>
> In the meantime, I have so far a few words or phrases I’m looking for
> the Nahua equivalent of:
>
> “Yes, hurry up.”
> (Spoken, or rather parroted, impatiently by an imperious two-year-old
> (Juana) to a small group of Macehual fieldhands.)
>
> “Twins”
> I have “cocoa” for serpents, as in, perhaps, “dragon twins” but these
> two little girls fancy themselves twins also. Would “Cocoa” (pl.?) be
> something they might run through a courtyard shouting as the equivalent
> of: [we are] Twins! Mellisas! Cocoas!
>
> “Ixayac”
> I have this for “face”. It is a rock face, but the two girls call their
> secret place that because it looks like a human face or mask. (There has
> been discussion of masks already in the chapter.)
>
> I know how it is with long postings – the shorter, the easier to answer.
> So please feel free to weigh in with only one small bit.
>
> And please accept my heartfelt thanks in advance.
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> Paul Anderson
>
>
>
>
>


From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx  Tue Aug 15 18:25:04 2000
From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 13:25:04 -0500
Subject: tla:n vs. titlan
In-Reply-To: <200008150024.UAA17696@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.AUG.2000.132504.0500.>

Hi Fran,
    The error is also on page 18 of Vol. 2: vocabulary and key.
John

on 8/14/00 7:38 PM, Frances Karttunen at karttu at nantucket.net wrote:

> Oh my gosh!  Previously it was posted to the list that I had reversed these
> things in a dashed-off message to a listero.  I was embarrassed and pointed
> out to everyone that the published dictionary is the one to trust.  Now it
> turns out that the reversal also appears on p. 43 of the Foundation Course.
> Please, please, please trust the dictionary.
>
> In the Foundation course, what has been reversed is the glosses.  Where it
> reads "-tlan 'near' and -tla:n 'below'" it should read "-tlan 'below' and
> -tla:n 'near.'  The following business about the ligature -ti- being used
> with -tlan is correct, but then the glosses are reversed again in the two
> examples.
>
> It's bizarre that so many classes have gone through the Foundation Course
> without this particular glitch coming to our attention.  Thanks, John, for
> finally spotting it!
>
> Fran
>
> ----------
>> From: John Sullivan <jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx>
>> To: nahuat-l <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
>> Subject: tla:n vs. titlan
>> Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000, 2:50 PM
>>
>
>> I'm sorry, I know this has been answered before, but as far as tla:n vs
>> ti+tlan, which is correct, the Analytical Dictionary or the Foundation
>> Course?
>> Techtlapopolhuica
>> John Sullivan
>> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
>>


From jdebuen at caliente.com.mx  Tue Aug 15 19:25:30 2000
From: jdebuen at caliente.com.mx (Jorge de Buen)
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:25:30 -0700
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
In-Reply-To: <3998C6E5.59FC8D53@telusplanet.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.AUG.2000.122530.0700.>

Paul Anderson wrote:

[...]
"Twins"
I have "cocoa" for serpents, as in, perhaps, "dragon twins" but these
two little girls fancy themselves twins also. Would "Cocoa" (pl.?) be
something they might run through a courtyard shouting as the equivalent
of: [we are] Twins! Mellisas! Cocoas!

I'm sorry I cannot help you with your query. Pero creo pertinente decirte
que _mellizas_ va con zeta.

Saludos.

Jorge de Buen U.
jdebuen at caliente.com.mx
Tijuana, México


From indus56 at telusplanet.net  Tue Aug 15 20:37:56 2000
From: indus56 at telusplanet.net (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:37:56 -0600
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <TUE.15.AUG.2000.143756.0600.>

Jorge, creo pertinente agradacerte mil ... bezes.
(Just kidding, but seriously, thank you.)

Jorge de Buen wrote:

> Paul Anderson wrote:
>
> [...]
> "Twins"
> I have "cocoa" for serpents, as in, perhaps, "dragon twins" but these
> two little girls fancy themselves twins also. Would "Cocoa" (pl.?) be
> something they might run through a courtyard shouting as the equivalent
> of: [we are] Twins! Mellisas! Cocoas!
>
> I'm sorry I cannot help you with your query. Pero creo pertinente decirte
> que _mellizas_ va con zeta.
>
> Saludos.
>
> Jorge de Buen U.
> jdebuen at caliente.com.mx
> Tijuana, México


From notoca at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 16 21:35:23 2000
From: notoca at hotmail.com (Chichiltic Coyotl)
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 21:35:23 WST
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <WED.16.AUG.2000.213523.WST.>

>Paul Anderson wrote
>
>�Ixayac�
>I have this for �face�. It is a rock face, but the two girls call their
>secret place that because it looks like a human face or mask. (There has
>been discussion of masks already in the chapter.)
>

I have a question on i:xa:yac. The following are only my thoughts on the
meaning so please do not take them as being "gospel".
I:xa:yac ?appears? to be a compound of i:x-tli (face, eye, surface) and
xa:yaca-tl (face, mask). I'm assuming two things when these two nouns come
together - 1) the "x" from xa:yaca-tl is dropped and the length of the vowel
a: remains the same. This compound ?appears? to translate as "face mask" or
possibly it's just a doubling up of the words for "face", however, is this a
logical compound considering that xa:yaca-tl appears to cover both concepts
of "face" and "mask"? A compound like co:a:xa:yac "snake mask" would appear
to make more sense. Would xa:yaca-tl by itself suffice as a suitable
translation for "face mask"?

Did the Nahua have the same concepts for both "face" and "mask"?

Thanks,

EZR




________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


From karttu at nantucket.net  Wed Aug 16 17:00:55 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:00:55 -0400
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <WED.16.AUG.2000.130055.0400.>

i:xa:yac is the third-person-singular possessed form of xa:yactli.  When the
possessive prefix i:- is added, the absolutive suffix -tli drops off the
end.  Since xa:yactli itself means 'visage.' there's no need to compound it
with i:xtli 'face, eye.'  I:-xa:yac means 'his/her/its face/visage/mask.'

----------
>From: "Chichiltic Coyotl" <notoca at hotmail.com>
>To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
>Subject: Re: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
>Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000, 5:35 PM
>

>
>>Paul Anderson wrote
>>
>>“Ixayac”
>>I have this for “face”. It is a rock face, but the two girls call their
>>secret place that because it looks like a human face or mask. (There has
>>been discussion of masks already in the chapter.)
>>
>
> I have a question on i:xa:yac. The following are only my thoughts on the
> meaning so please do not take them as being "gospel".
> I:xa:yac ?appears? to be a compound of i:x-tli (face, eye, surface) and
> xa:yaca-tl (face, mask). I'm assuming two things when these two nouns come
> together - 1) the "x" from xa:yaca-tl is dropped and the length of the vowel
> a: remains the same. This compound ?appears? to translate as "face mask" or
> possibly it's just a doubling up of the words for "face", however, is this a
> logical compound considering that xa:yaca-tl appears to cover both concepts
> of "face" and "mask"? A compound like co:a:xa:yac "snake mask" would appear
> to make more sense. Would xa:yaca-tl by itself suffice as a suitable
> translation for "face mask"?
>
> Did the Nahua have the same concepts for both "face" and "mask"?
>
> Thanks,
>
> EZR
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>


From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx  Wed Aug 16 17:30:18 2000
From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan)
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 12:30:18 -0500
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F287JMJVeZ0RCm000016ab@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.16.AUG.2000.123018.0500.>

"i:xa:yac" is just the third person singular possessed form of "xa:yacatl",
"face". The last three letters are dropped in this form. Since "xa:yacatl"
is a body part, you will never see it in the unpossessed form. If you add
"cuahuitl", then you can get an unpossessed form, mask: "cuauhxa:yacatl".
    John Sullivan
    Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas

on 8/16/00 8:35 AM, Chichiltic Coyotl at notoca at hotmail.com wrote:

>
>> Paul Anderson wrote
>>
>> “Ixayac”
>> I have this for “face”. It is a rock face, but the two girls call their
>> secret place that because it looks like a human face or mask. (There has
>> been discussion of masks already in the chapter.)
>>
>
> I have a question on i:xa:yac. The following are only my thoughts on the
> meaning so please do not take them as being "gospel".
> I:xa:yac ?appears? to be a compound of i:x-tli (face, eye, surface) and
> xa:yaca-tl (face, mask). I'm assuming two things when these two nouns come
> together - 1) the "x" from xa:yaca-tl is dropped and the length of the vowel
> a: remains the same. This compound ?appears? to translate as "face mask" or
> possibly it's just a doubling up of the words for "face", however, is this a
> logical compound considering that xa:yaca-tl appears to cover both concepts
> of "face" and "mask"? A compound like co:a:xa:yac "snake mask" would appear
> to make more sense. Would xa:yaca-tl by itself suffice as a suitable
> translation for "face mask"?
>
> Did the Nahua have the same concepts for both "face" and "mask"?
>
> Thanks,
>
> EZR
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>


From arturo at lge.com  Wed Aug 16 18:18:54 2000
From: arturo at lge.com (Arturo Gallo)
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:18:54 KST
Subject: Translation
Message-ID: <WED.16.AUG.2000.181854.KST.>

Hello list, i need to translate a phrase written in nahuatl perhaps
you can help me, is some kind of homework, i just don't know where
else to look for help:

"cuautleco totonal, ye oxepa thahuilla"

the teacher gave that to us, i don't even know if it's well written,
do you think you can help me?

Thanks in advance...

Arturo.


From campbel at indiana.edu  Thu Aug 17 05:19:22 2000
From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 00:19:22 -0500
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
In-Reply-To: <B5C039DA.1F8%jsullivan@prodigy.net.mx>
Message-ID: <THU.17.AUG.2000.001922.0500.>

   I'm sorry that this suffers from some irregularities, but the hour is
getting late...  The empty () citations come from the Florentine Codex, as
do the FC items.  The ___ items are ones that still lack a gloss in the
database.
  The "m" citations are all from Molina's three dictionaries, as follows:
   55m   1555  Spanish-Nahuatl
   71m1  1571  Spanish-Nahuatl
   71m2  1571  Nahuatl-Spanish

   The Molina citations contain Molina's original Spanish glosses, but the
Florentine items are translated into English.  And due to a variety of
factors, the list undoubtedly contains items which are NOT RELATED to
"xayacatl".

Saludos,

Joe



  amaxayacatl. caratula de papel; maxcara de papel (55m, 71m1, 71m2).
  axaxayacatamalli. water fly tamale (FC).
  axaxayacatl. cierta sauandija de agua como moxca; ___; water fly; waterfly
    (71m2, FC).
  chichihualli xayacatl, tla-. maxcara o caratula (71m1).
  coaxayacatl. ___ (FC).
  coaxayacayo. ___ ().
  cohuaxayacayo. ___ ().
  cuauhxayacatl. caratula de palo; caratula de madera (71m1, 71m2).
  cuauhxayacatl <y assi delas de mas>. caratula de palo (55m).
  cuitlaxayacatl. las caderas del cuerpo (71m2).
  iocxayac. his wine face ().
  ixayac. ___; her face; his face; his mask; its face ().
  ixayacatia, qu-. he gives it a face ().
  memexayac, in-. their maguey leaf mask ().
  mexayacatiaya, mo-. they put on maguey leaf masks ().
  mictimomana in noxayac. demudarse el color; demudarse, el color (55m,
    71m1).
  moxayac. your face ().
  noxayac. my face ().
  omictimoman in ixayac. demudado assi (71m1).
  quimoxayacatia. he uses it as a face, it shows on his face (FC).
  quinmemexayacatiaya. ___ ().
  quixayacatiaya. they provided it with a mask ().
  quixtia inixayac, nic-. parecer a otro enla cara (71m1).
  quiyauhxayac, i-. his rain mask (FC).
  tlacaxayaque. ___; having a human face; man-faced, having a face like a
    person ().
  tlachichihualli xayacatl. maxcara o caratula (55m).
  tlalocaxayac, i-. his tlaloc mask (FC).
  tlaxayacatiani. ___ ().
  tocuitlaxayac. our hip ().
  toxayac. cara; la cara; our face (71m1, 71m2, FC).
  xayac, i-. his face; its face ().
  xayac, in-. their face; their faces ().
  xayac, mo-. your face ().
  xayacatia, nicno- (onicnoxayacati). emmaxcararse con ruynes costumbres.
    metaphora (71m2).
  xayacatia, nite-. caratula poner a otro; caratula o maxcara poner a otro
    (55m, 71m1).
  xayacatia, nite- (onitexayacati). emmaxcarar a otro (71m2).
  xayacatiaya, qui-. he provided it with a mask (FC).
  xayacatiaya, quin-. they placed masks on them ().
  xayacatl. cara; caratula generalmente; gesto la cara; haz por la cara del
    hombre; rostro o cara; cara; caratula generalmente; gesto, la cara; haz,
    por la cara o rostro del hombre; rostro o cara; cara o rostro, caratula o
    maxcara; face; mask (55m, 71m1, 71m2, FC).
  xayacatlachichihualli. maxcara o caratula; caratula o maxcara (55m, 71m1,
    71m2).
  xayacayotia, nite-. hazer los rostros alas ymagines, o emmaxcarar a tro
    (71m1).
  xayacayotia, nite- (onitexayacayoti). emmaxcarar a otro (71m2).
  xayacayotia, nitla- (onitlaxayacayoti). hazer los rostros alas imagines que
    se pintan ().
  xayahualli. ___ (FC).
  xayahualoc. ___ ().
  xiuhcoaxayacatl. turquoise serpent mask ().
  xiuhxayac, i-. his turquoise mask ().
  xiuhxayacatl. turquoise mosaic mask ().
  zoquixayacatl <yassi de las de mas s.>


From karttu at nantucket.net  Thu Aug 17 11:20:20 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 07:20:20 -0400
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <THU.17.AUG.2000.072020.0400.>

In the list Joe generated for us, notice this apparent difrasismo for mask:
'breast (chi:chi:hualli), face (xa:yacatl)'

>   chichihualli xayacatl



But further on in Joe's list, we find:  'something counterfeit
(tlachihchi:hualli), face (xa:yacatl)'

>   tlachichihualli xayacatl. maxcara o caratula (55m).



And then a compound in the other order: 'something face-wise counterfeit':

>   xayacatlachichihualli. maxcara o caratula; caratula o maxcara (55m, 71m1,
71m2)



The latter two cast doubt on what at first looked like a neat difrasismo.
We look again and see that in fact the first entry has a tla- tucked in
there at the end:

>   chichihualli xayacatl, tla-. maxcara o caratula (71m1).




So chi:chi:hualli ('breast') figures in none of these.

It is assembly of information from within and across sources, as Joe so
often does for this list, that helps us avoid false etymologies, a problem
that has plagued Nahuatl studies at least since the publication of Simeon's
dictionary.


From melesan at pacbell.net  Fri Aug 18 21:56:09 2000
From: melesan at pacbell.net (melesan at pacbell.net)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 14:56:09 -0700
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <FRI.18.AUG.2000.145609.0700.>

Paul,

Use the mexicanismo for twin what my high school students in Santa Ana, Ca
use for twin:  cuate from coatl from Quetzalcoatl.  One of the aspects of
this diety was that he was the morning and evening star, Venus.  His twin
was Xolotl (from which I believe but will have to substantiate comes the
word cholo, used throughout Latin America).  See Alfonso Caso's El Pueblo
del Sol (The People of the Sun) for a more scholarly explanation.

Would love to read any part of your novel beforehand.  Am a high school
teacher and we delve into Sor Juana and Mexica or Aztec culture in my high
school Spanish for Spanish Speakers courses.

Mel Sanchez.

Paul Anderson wrote:

> Dear fellow subscribers to Nahuat-l:
>
> I’m a new subscriber and this is my first posting. I’ve had some initial
> difficulty accessing the archives, so am not sure whether it’s customary
> for newbies here to introduce themselves. As will quickly be apparent,
> I’m not a professional in the field of Nahuatl studies.
>
> I’m currently wrapping up my first novel, based in part on the life of
> Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, and am delighted to be able to say that it
> has just been accepted by Random House of Canada. While in Mexico on a
> research trip in 1995, I had the great delight of speaking with Dr.
> Patrick Johannsen (sp.) at UNAM for a couple of hours about Sor Juana’s
> use of Nahuatl in her poetry.
>
> Did he, I asked, have any opinion on just how well she used or spoke the
> language?
>
> By sheer happenstance he was then completing a paper on the topic, and
> felt her usage to be highly sophisticated. This was consistent with some
> notions I’d been noodling with regarding her first 11 years of life in
> Nepantla and Panoyan. My publisher has asked for more from this period
> and I’m happy to try to oblige. It’s natural to suppose there were a
> number of Nahua speakers among the workers of both haciendas. I’ve come
> up with a Nahua-speaking wetnurse, whose daughter is Juana’s age, and
> her best friend.
>
> In one chapter I have her wetnurse and best friend teaching her Nahua
> proverbs during a long, bumpy ride by mule cart from Nepantla through
> Chimalhuacan and into Nepantla. I’ve been working with a few of the
> proverbs published in Thelma Sullivan’s _A Scattering of Jades_.
>
> If there were anyone out there willing to look over the chapter as a
> whole, I would of course be thrilled.
>
> In the meantime, I have so far a few words or phrases I’m looking for
> the Nahua equivalent of:
>
> “Yes, hurry up.”
> (Spoken, or rather parroted, impatiently by an imperious two-year-old
> (Juana) to a small group of Macehual fieldhands.)
>
> “Twins”
> I have “cocoa” for serpents, as in, perhaps, “dragon twins” but these
> two little girls fancy themselves twins also. Would “Cocoa” (pl.?) be
> something they might run through a courtyard shouting as the equivalent
> of: [we are] Twins! Mellisas! Cocoas!
>
> “Ixayac”
> I have this for “face”. It is a rock face, but the two girls call their
> secret place that because it looks like a human face or mask. (There has
> been discussion of masks already in the chapter.)
>
> I know how it is with long postings – the shorter, the easier to answer.
> So please feel free to weigh in with only one small bit.
>
> And please accept my heartfelt thanks in advance.
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> Paul Anderson


From Rmedinagarcia at aol.com  Wed Aug 23 01:10:55 2000
From: Rmedinagarcia at aol.com (Rmedinagarcia at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 21:10:55 EDT
Subject: third person singular
Message-ID: <TUE.22.AUG.2000.211055.EDT.>

Hello,
     This is my first posting.  I am trying to learn Nahuatl from Horcasita's Nahuatl Practico.  How do you differentiate gender for the third person singular: yehuatl? Is it implied that the gender is always male?
                          Ricardo


From karttu at nantucket.net  Wed Aug 23 02:06:02 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:06:02 -0400
Subject: third person singular
Message-ID: <TUE.22.AUG.2000.220602.0400.>

----------
>From: Rmedinagarcia at aol.com
>To: <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
>Subject: third person singular
>Date: Tue, Aug 22, 2000, 9:10 PM
>

> Hello,
>      This is my first posting.  I am trying to learn Nahuatl from
> Horcasita's Nahuatl Practico.  How do you differentiate gender for the
> third person singular: yehuatl? Is it implied that the gender is always male?
>                           Ricardo

Better yet!  There is no grammatical distinction between masculine and
feminine.  If it's REALLY important, one must say so.  Otherwise, Nahuatl
prvides a gender-free context.


There ARE distinctions made grammatically between human and nonhuman (te:-
versus tla-) and animate versus inanimate (only animate entities--as Nahuas
perceive them, sometimes differently than we might--have distinct plural
forms).

As for third-person singular subject and object, they are determinable as
he/him, she/her, or it only by external context.  For plural, English is
more like Nahuatl than Spanish is: just they/them.


From indus56 at telusplanet.net  Thu Aug 24 00:32:58 2000
From: indus56 at telusplanet.net (Paul Anderson)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:32:58 -0600
Subject: Cuates, Cholos, Sor Juana, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <WED.23.AUG.2000.183258.0600.>

Mel Sanchez had been good enough to propose two Mexicanisms for "twin", and
had asked the list if anyone could confirm what he thought to be the
derivations ("cuate" from Quetzalcoatl; "cholo" from Xolotl). We're working on
it. Here's what a friend in Mexico City has turned up so far...

La verdad es que la palabra cuate la utilizamos para distinguir a los
hermanos que se gestan al mismo tiempo en un vientre materno pero cada cual
viene en su propia bolsa, porque fueron dos óvulos los fecundados en el
mismo periodo por dos espermatozoides, pueden ser de sexo distinto y no son
idénticos, a diferencia de los gemelos, twins, que vienen de  un mismo óvulo
y por ello en la misma bolsa, son idénticos y del mismo sexo.




melesan at pacbell.net wrote:

> Paul,
>
> Use the mexicanismo for twin what my high school students in Santa Ana, Ca
> use for twin:  cuate from coatl from Quetzalcoatl.  One of the aspects of
> this diety was that he was the morning and evening star, Venus.  His twin
> was Xolotl (from which I believe but will have to substantiate comes the
> word cholo, used throughout Latin America).  See Alfonso Caso's El Pueblo
> del Sol (The People of the Sun) for a more scholarly explanation.
>
> Would love to read any part of your novel beforehand.  Am a high school
> teacher and we delve into Sor Juana and Mexica or Aztec culture in my high
> school Spanish for Spanish Speakers courses.
>
> Mel Sanchez.
>
> Paul Anderson wrote:
>
> > Dear fellow subscribers to Nahuat-l:
> >
> > I’m a new subscriber and this is my first posting. I’ve had some initial
> > difficulty accessing the archives, so am not sure whether it’s customary
> > for newbies here to introduce themselves. As will quickly be apparent,
> > I’m not a professional in the field of Nahuatl studies.
> >
> > I’m currently wrapping up my first novel, based in part on the life of
> > Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, and am delighted to be able to say that it
> > has just been accepted by Random House of Canada. While in Mexico on a
> > research trip in 1995, I had the great delight of speaking with Dr.
> > Patrick Johannsen (sp.) at UNAM for a couple of hours about Sor Juana’s
> > use of Nahuatl in her poetry.
> >
> > Did he, I asked, have any opinion on just how well she used or spoke the
> > language?
> >
> > By sheer happenstance he was then completing a paper on the topic, and
> > felt her usage to be highly sophisticated. This was consistent with some
> > notions I’d been noodling with regarding her first 11 years of life in
> > Nepantla and Panoyan. My publisher has asked for more from this period
> > and I’m happy to try to oblige. It’s natural to suppose there were a
> > number of Nahua speakers among the workers of both haciendas. I’ve come
> > up with a Nahua-speaking wetnurse, whose daughter is Juana’s age, and
> > her best friend.
> >
> > In one chapter I have her wetnurse and best friend teaching her Nahua
> > proverbs during a long, bumpy ride by mule cart from Nepantla through
> > Chimalhuacan and into Nepantla. I’ve been working with a few of the
> > proverbs published in Thelma Sullivan’s _A Scattering of Jades_.
> >
> > If there were anyone out there willing to look over the chapter as a
> > whole, I would of course be thrilled.
> >
> > In the meantime, I have so far a few words or phrases I’m looking for
> > the Nahua equivalent of:
> >
> > “Yes, hurry up.”
> > (Spoken, or rather parroted, impatiently by an imperious two-year-old
> > (Juana) to a small group of Macehual fieldhands.)
> >
> > “Twins”
> > I have “cocoa” for serpents, as in, perhaps, “dragon twins” but these
> > two little girls fancy themselves twins also. Would “Cocoa” (pl.?) be
> > something they might run through a courtyard shouting as the equivalent
> > of: [we are] Twins! Mellisas! Cocoas!
> >
> > “Ixayac”
> > I have this for “face”. It is a rock face, but the two girls call their
> > secret place that because it looks like a human face or mask. (There has
> > been discussion of masks already in the chapter.)
> >
> > I know how it is with long postings – the shorter, the easier to answer.
> > So please feel free to weigh in with only one small bit.
> >
> > And please accept my heartfelt thanks in advance.
> >
> > Yours sincerely,
> >
> > Paul Anderson


From n8upb at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 24 00:54:29 2000
From: n8upb at yahoo.com (A. C. Garcia)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:54:29 -0700
Subject: Cuates, Cholos, Sor Juana, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <WED.23.AUG.2000.175429.0700.>

Cuate = Eagle

Cholo = Gangster or Pachuco

I am of the 1950 era



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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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From melesan at pacbell.net  Thu Aug 24 00:46:39 2000
From: melesan at pacbell.net (melesan at pacbell.net)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:46:39 -0700
Subject: Cuates, Cholos, Sor Juana, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <WED.23.AUG.2000.174639.0700.>

Paul and all,

I only think the word cholo comes from Xolotl. It doesn't mean twin.  For my kids,
it is a gang kid.  In Peru and Chile it is a person usually of African descent.  A
Bolivian told me it means handsome or well off.  Sorry if I gave you the wrong
impression.  Again, take a look at Alfonso Caso's El Pueblo del Sol to explain the
origin of cuate.  I'll look for the exact quote from Caso for you.

Mel

Paul Anderson wrote:

> Mel Sanchez had been good enough to propose two Mexicanisms for "twin", and
> had asked the list if anyone could confirm what he thought to be the
> derivations ("cuate" from Quetzalcoatl; "cholo" from Xolotl). We're working on
> it. Here's what a friend in Mexico City has turned up so far...
>
> La verdad es que la palabra cuate la utilizamos para distinguir a los
> hermanos que se gestan al mismo tiempo en un vientre materno pero cada cual
> viene en su propia bolsa, porque fueron dos óvulos los fecundados en el
> mismo periodo por dos espermatozoides, pueden ser de sexo distinto y no son
> idénticos, a diferencia de los gemelos, twins, que vienen de  un mismo óvulo
> y por ello en la misma bolsa, son idénticos y del mismo sexo.
>
> melesan at pacbell.net wrote:
>
> > Paul,
> >
> > Use the mexicanismo for twin what my high school students in Santa Ana, Ca
> > use for twin:  cuate from coatl from Quetzalcoatl.  One of the aspects of
> > this diety was that he was the morning and evening star, Venus.  His twin
> > was Xolotl (from which I believe but will have to substantiate comes the
> > word cholo, used throughout Latin America).  See Alfonso Caso's El Pueblo
> > del Sol (The People of the Sun) for a more scholarly explanation.
> >
> > Would love to read any part of your novel beforehand.  Am a high school
> > teacher and we delve into Sor Juana and Mexica or Aztec culture in my high
> > school Spanish for Spanish Speakers courses.
> >
> > Mel Sanchez.
> >
> > Paul Anderson wrote:
> >
> > > Dear fellow subscribers to Nahuat-l:
> > >
> > > I’m a new subscriber and this is my first posting. I’ve had some initial
> > > difficulty accessing the archives, so am not sure whether it’s customary
> > > for newbies here to introduce themselves. As will quickly be apparent,
> > > I’m not a professional in the field of Nahuatl studies.
> > >
> > > I’m currently wrapping up my first novel, based in part on the life of
> > > Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, and am delighted to be able to say that it
> > > has just been accepted by Random House of Canada. While in Mexico on a
> > > research trip in 1995, I had the great delight of speaking with Dr.
> > > Patrick Johannsen (sp.) at UNAM for a couple of hours about Sor Juana’s
> > > use of Nahuatl in her poetry.
> > >
> > > Did he, I asked, have any opinion on just how well she used or spoke the
> > > language?
> > >
> > > By sheer happenstance he was then completing a paper on the topic, and
> > > felt her usage to be highly sophisticated. This was consistent with some
> > > notions I’d been noodling with regarding her first 11 years of life in
> > > Nepantla and Panoyan. My publisher has asked for more from this period
> > > and I’m happy to try to oblige. It’s natural to suppose there were a
> > > number of Nahua speakers among the workers of both haciendas. I’ve come
> > > up with a Nahua-speaking wetnurse, whose daughter is Juana’s age, and
> > > her best friend.
> > >
> > > In one chapter I have her wetnurse and best friend teaching her Nahua
> > > proverbs during a long, bumpy ride by mule cart from Nepantla through
> > > Chimalhuacan and into Nepantla. I’ve been working with a few of the
> > > proverbs published in Thelma Sullivan’s _A Scattering of Jades_.
> > >
> > > If there were anyone out there willing to look over the chapter as a
> > > whole, I would of course be thrilled.
> > >
> > > In the meantime, I have so far a few words or phrases I’m looking for
> > > the Nahua equivalent of:
> > >
> > > “Yes, hurry up.”
> > > (Spoken, or rather parroted, impatiently by an imperious two-year-old
> > > (Juana) to a small group of Macehual fieldhands.)
> > >
> > > “Twins”
> > > I have “cocoa” for serpents, as in, perhaps, “dragon twins” but these
> > > two little girls fancy themselves twins also. Would “Cocoa” (pl.?) be
> > > something they might run through a courtyard shouting as the equivalent
> > > of: [we are] Twins! Mellisas! Cocoas!
> > >
> > > “Ixayac”
> > > I have this for “face”. It is a rock face, but the two girls call their
> > > secret place that because it looks like a human face or mask. (There has
> > > been discussion of masks already in the chapter.)
> > >
> > > I know how it is with long postings – the shorter, the easier to answer.
> > > So please feel free to weigh in with only one small bit.
> > >
> > > And please accept my heartfelt thanks in advance.
> > >
> > > Yours sincerely,
> > >
> > > Paul Anderson


From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx  Thu Aug 24 16:18:25 2000
From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:18:25 -0500
Subject: a regular problem with Molina
Message-ID: <THU.24.AUG.2000.111825.0500.>

Compañeros,
    While correcting an article for a colleague, I came across a problem
with an entry in Molina. Specifically, the entry for "Reglar o regular cosa"
(p. 103recto in the Spanish section) gives us, "nauatile. nauatilpiani".
First of all, after consulting the Diccionario de Autoridades, I assume that
we are dealing with "regular" in the sense of "cloister and/or rules and
regulations". Second, the standard grammars indicate that the agentive forms
"-eh/-huah" and "-ni" refer to persons. Thus I assume that both "nauatile"
and "nauatilpiani" refer to persons of "religious orders" both before and
after the conquest. However, Molina's entry suggests that they may also
refer to "things". Any comments on this or any part of the preceding
analysis?
    John Sullivan
    Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas


From War14655 at aol.com  Thu Aug 24 20:42:09 2000
From: War14655 at aol.com (War14655 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 16:42:09 EDT
Subject: Looking for poems....
Message-ID: <THU.24.AUG.2000.164209.EDT.>

Can anyone help me find poems of Nezahual Coyotl in Nahuatl?  Thank you very
much...


From mosquerd at union.edu  Thu Aug 24 23:03:11 2000
From: mosquerd at union.edu (Daniel Mosquera)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 19:03:11 -0400
Subject: a regular problem with Molina
Message-ID: <THU.24.AUG.2000.190311.0400.>

The first entry for "regular" of the Diccionario de Autoridades may hold a clue.
It gives the meanings "comun, ordinario o natural" and follows this with an
example which presents the phrase "Hechas las regulares ceremonias..." It
appears that the definition Molina provides in his dictionary antecedes the
adjective in the same way, that is "regular cosa" or, in other words, cosa
regular, comun o natural. So your analysis that Molina also applies the meaning
to things may be accurate. I hope this may help.

Daniel Mosquera

John Sullivan wrote:

> Compañeros,
>     While correcting an article for a colleague, I came across a problem
> with an entry in Molina. Specifically, the entry for "Reglar o regular cosa"
> (p. 103recto in the Spanish section) gives us, "nauatile. nauatilpiani".
> First of all, after consulting the Diccionario de Autoridades, I assume that
> we are dealing with "regular" in the sense of "cloister and/or rules and
> regulations". Second, the standard grammars indicate that the agentive forms
> "-eh/-huah" and "-ni" refer to persons. Thus I assume that both "nauatile"
> and "nauatilpiani" refer to persons of "religious orders" both before and
> after the conquest. However, Molina's entry suggests that they may also
> refer to "things". Any comments on this or any part of the preceding
> analysis?
>     John Sullivan
>     Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas

--
Daniel O. Mosquera
Assistant Professor of Spanish
Modern Languages & Literature
Union College
Schenectady, NY 12308

Tel: (518) 388-6415        Fax: (518) 388-6462
http://www1.union.edu/~mosquerd
--

"If we could see ourselves as others see us, we would vanish on the spot" -- E.
M. Cioran


From jessh827 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 25 00:37:19 2000
From: jessh827 at yahoo.com (J H)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:37:19 -0700
Subject: Looking for poems....
Message-ID: <THU.24.AUG.2000.173719.0700.>

Id be interested in that.

--- War14655 at aol.com wrote:
> Can anyone help me find poems of Nezahual Coyotl in
> Nahuatl?  Thank you very
> much...


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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From Rmedinagarcia at aol.com  Mon Aug 28 09:12:59 2000
From: Rmedinagarcia at aol.com (Rmedinagarcia at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 05:12:59 EDT
Subject: The heart of it
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.051259.EDT.>

In Nahuatl theres seems to be a predilection for compound words.  Seeing this
I wonder if there is a known relationship between yollotl (heart) and the
suffix -yotl.  Once -yotl is added Thelma D. Sullivan states "the noun
expresses a quality or attribute that is independen in meaning from that of
the noun .  .  ." (Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar p. 18).  The Aztecs like
many people believed the heart to represent the essence of the person.  For
example toltecatl (the people) tolteca+yotl (the culture, the essence of the
people).  Another example is nantli (mother) and nan+yotl (motherhood, the
heart of being a mother or the essence of being a mother).  Do yollotl and
-yotl have a similar meaning?

Ricardo


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Mon Aug 28 15:29:32 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 09:29:32 -0600
Subject: Looking for poems....
In-Reply-To: <20000825003719.23639.qmail@web805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.092932.0600.>

The most concise compilation is in _Nezahualcoyotl, Vida y Obra_ by Jose
Luis Martinez (Mexico: Fondo de Cultura Economica, 1972) which contains
most of the poems of N.

Other sources of the Poetry attributed to Nezahualcoyotl can be found in
the _Poesia Nahuatl_ 3 vols. edited and translated into Spanish by Angel
Maria Garibay.  There are selections from those volumes in Brigita
Leander's _Flor y Canto, also in Spanish.  A translation into English which
has caused much controversy is John Bierhorst's _Cantares Mexicanos_ which
also contains some poems attributed to Nezahualcoyotl.

John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                         FAX 406-243-5937
      	         http://www.umt.edu/history/Nahuatl


From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Mon Aug 28 15:59:50 2000
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:59:50 -0400
Subject: Looking for poems....
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.115950.0400.>

Also on this subject of the poetry of Nezahualcoyotl, one has to be careful
about what authorship means in the Nahua context and whether attributing it to
Nezahualcoyotl is productive or not. Jong Soo Lee, a member of this list and now
at University of North Texas, has just finished writing a dissertation on
Nezahualcoyotl, and he deals with the question of authorship.
I'm sure you would have come across this issue, but I just wanted to put in a
plug for Jong Soo. :-)

Galen Brokaw
Lafayette College


From xikano_1 at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 28 16:06:18 2000
From: xikano_1 at hotmail.com (XiKano *)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 09:06:18 PDT
Subject: Looking for poems....
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.090618.PDT.>

>From: "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at selway.umt.edu>
A translation into
>English which
>has caused much controversy is John Bierhorst's _Cantares Mexicanos_ which
>also contains some poems attributed to Nezahualcoyotl.

Controversy? Interesting. This is unknown to me. Can you eleborate?

Thank you,
-XiKano
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Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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http://profiles.msn.com.


From aaimi at mail.archi.it  Mon Aug 28 16:15:36 2000
From: aaimi at mail.archi.it (antonio aimi)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 18:15:36 +0200
Subject: nose ornament
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.181536.0200.>

Hi all,

does somebody know the nahuatl name of the nose ornament inserted in the nose of the tlatoque in accession ritual called "tecuhtli" ?

Thanks

Antonio
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From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Mon Aug 28 16:43:05 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 10:43:05 -0600
Subject: Looking for poems....
In-Reply-To: <LAW-F238nHmOEGqcGtb00000c28@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.104305.0600.>

At 09:06 AM 8/28/00 -0700, you wrote:
>>From: "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at selway.umt.edu>
>A translation into
>>English which
>>has caused much controversy is John Bierhorst's _Cantares Mexicanos_ which
>>also contains some poems attributed to Nezahualcoyotl.
>
>Controversy? Interesting. This is unknown to me. Can you eleborate?



Bierhorst holds that the poems in the Cantares Mexicanos were part of a
Nahua "Ghost Dance" ritual destined to revivify the essence of fallen
warriors in a crypto-rebellion against the Spanish.  No other scholar who
has studied the song cycle has been able to discover such a theme.



John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                         FAX 406-243-5937
      	         http://www.umt.edu/history/Nahuatl


From campbel at indiana.edu  Mon Aug 28 18:52:02 2000
From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 13:52:02 -0500
Subject: Bierhorst Bashing -- was  Looking for a poem...
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20000828104125.00c92220@selway.umt.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.135202.0500.>

Nocnihuan,
   As Fritz has pointed out, John Bierhorst is a member of a very small
set of scholars who hold his point of view about a Nahua Ghost Dance.  I
don't know enough to comment on the merits of his point of view or that of
his critics, but I am continually distressed at one of the biggest results
of the issue -- it distracts attention from **all the rest of the value**
in his two-volume work on the Cantares.
   I just consulted a Nahuatl scholar (whose opinion I respect and
sometimes agree with) <8-< and my question "Do you ever check Bierhorst?"
elicited the answer "Of course!!"  Further, "Does it ever help you?" got
the same answer.  Since I agreed with the reaction, naturally, my respect
for my colleague grew a notch.
   My humble opinion is that the community of Nahuatl scholars would gain
a lot by getting past the knee-jerk reaction to John's work on the basis
of one point of disagreement and take an extended look at the valuable
resource that he provided us with through what was a long period of
careful labor (preparation of the text and making that humongous
vocabulary!). Yotlan.

Saludos,

Joe


>
> Bierhorst holds that the poems in the Cantares Mexicanos were part of a
> Nahua "Ghost Dance" ritual destined to revivify the essence of fallen
> warriors in a crypto-rebellion against the Spanish.  No other scholar who
> has studied the song cycle has been able to discover such a theme.
>


From campbel at indiana.edu  Mon Aug 28 19:11:45 2000
From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:11:45 -0500
Subject: nose ornament
In-Reply-To: <001b01c0110b$a1a60b60$801ab9c2@default>
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.141145.0500.>

Antonio,
   Here are all the places in the Florentine Codex that contain both
"nose" and either "ornament" or "plug".  The locations given by book and
page may contain other information of interest to you.

Saludos,

Joe

p.d.  Some redundancy involved:

nose
     1.  and the array of tezcatzoncatl [was thus]: he had the white
          heron feather headdress; he had the crescent-shaped **nose**
          ornament, the ear plug of paper.
          auh in inechichihual tezcatzoncatl, aztatzone, yacametze,
              amanacoche, (b.1 f.3 p.51)
     2.  and all put in place the turquoise **nose** rods and inserted
          the turquoise ear plugs, indeed of turquoise; but some were
          only made of wood painted like turquoise.
          ihuan contlalia yacaxihuitl in mochinti, ihuan conaquia
              xiuhnacochtli, huel xihuitl. auh in cequintin zan cuahuitl  in
              tlachihualli, tlaxiuhicuilolli (b.2 f.10 p.164)
     3.  and [he had] his gold **nose** crescent, and his golden ear
          plugs.
          ihuan iteocuitlayacametz, ihuan iteocuitlanacoch, (b.9 f.5 p.69)
     4.  and [she had] her golden ear plugs and golden butterfly
          **nose** pendant, and her shift of variegated red [and white];
          just the same was her skirt.
          ihuan iteocuitlanacoch, ihuan iteocuitlayacapilpalouh, ihuan
              ihuipil tlappoyahuac: zan no iuhqui in icue, (b.9 f.6 p.79)
ornament
     1.  and the array of tezcatzoncatl [was thus]: he had the white
          heron feather headdress; he had the crescent-shaped nose
          **ornament**, the ear plug of paper.
          auh in inechichihual tezcatzoncatl, aztatzone, yacametze,
              amanacoche, (b.1 f.3 p.51)
pendant
     1.  and [she had] her golden ear plugs and golden butterfly nose
          **pendant**, and her shift of variegated red [and white]; just
          the same was her skirt.
          ihuan iteocuitlanacoch, ihuan iteocuitlayacapilpalouh, ihuan
              ihuipil tlappoyahuac: zan no iuhqui in icue, (b.9 f.6 p.79)
plug
     1.  and the array of tezcatzoncatl [was thus]: he had the white
          heron feather headdress; he had the crescent-shaped nose
          ornament, the ear **plug** of paper.
          auh in inechichihual tezcatzoncatl, aztatzone, yacametze,
              amanacoche, (b.1 f.3 p.51)
plugs
     1.  and all put in place the turquoise nose rods and inserted the
          turquoise ear **plugs**, indeed of turquoise; but some were
          only made of wood painted like turquoise.
          ihuan contlalia yacaxihuitl in mochinti, ihuan conaquia
              xiuhnacochtli, huel xihuitl. auh in cequintin zan cuahuitl  in
              tlachihualli, tlaxiuhicuilolli (b.2 f.10 p.164)
     2.  and [he had] his gold nose crescent, and his golden ear
          **plugs**.
          ihuan iteocuitlayacametz, ihuan iteocuitlanacoch, (b.9 f.5 p.69)
     3.  and [she had] her golden ear **plugs** and golden butterfly
          nose pendant, and her shift of variegated red [and white];
          just the same was her skirt.
          ihuan iteocuitlanacoch, ihuan iteocuitlayacapilpalouh, ihuan
              ihuipil tlappoyahuac: zan no iuhqui in icue, (b.9 f.6 p.79)
turquoise
     1.  and all put in place the **turquoise** nose rods and inserted
          the turquoise ear plugs, indeed of turquoise; but some were
          only made of wood painted like turquoise.
          ihuan contlalia yacaxihuitl in mochinti, ihuan conaquia
              xiuhnacochtli, huel xihuitl. auh in cequintin zan cuahuitl  in
              tlachihualli, tlaxiuhicuilolli (b.2 f.10 p.164)
     2.  and all put in place the turquoise nose rods and inserted the
          **turquoise** ear plugs, indeed of turquoise; but some were
          only made of wood painted like turquoise.
          ihuan contlalia yacaxihuitl in mochinti, ihuan conaquia
              xiuhnacochtli, huel xihuitl. auh in cequintin zan cuahuitl  in
              tlachihualli, tlaxiuhicuilolli (b.2 f.10 p.164)
     3.  and all put in place the turquoise nose rods and inserted the
          turquoise ear plugs, indeed of **turquoise**; but some were
          only made of wood painted like turquoise.
          ihuan contlalia yacaxihuitl in mochinti, ihuan conaquia
              xiuhnacochtli, huel xihuitl. auh in cequintin zan cuahuitl  in
              tlachihualli, tlaxiuhicuilolli (b.2 f.10 p.164)
     4.  and all put in place the turquoise nose rods and inserted the
          turquoise ear plugs, indeed of turquoise; but some were only
          made of wood painted like **turquoise**.
          ihuan contlalia yacaxihuitl in mochinti, ihuan conaquia
              xiuhnacochtli, huel xihuitl. auh in cequintin zan cuahuitl  in
              tlachihualli, tlaxiuhicuilolli (b.2 f.10 p.164)




On Mon, 28 Aug 2000, antonio aimi wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> does somebody know the nahuatl name of the nose ornament inserted in the nose of the tlatoque in accession ritual called "tecuhtli" ?
>
> Thanks
>
> Antonio
>
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From rude at leland.stanford.edu  Mon Aug 28 22:00:48 2000
From: rude at leland.stanford.edu (Rudiger V. Busto)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 15:00:48 -0700
Subject: Looking for poems....
In-Reply-To: <LAW-F238nHmOEGqcGtb00000c28@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.150048.0700.>

XiKano,
	Take a look at Leon-Portilla's review of Bierhorst's translations
of the Cantares in "Una Nueva Interpretacion de los Cantares Mexicanos?  La
Obra de John  Bierhorst" in Estudios de Cultura Nahuatl, vol. 18 (1986),
385-400.  Leon-Portilla addresses Bierhorst's interpretation of the
Cantares as "Ghost Songs" head on and in some detail.



>>From: "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at selway.umt.edu>
>A translation into
>>English which
>>has caused much controversy is John Bierhorst's _Cantares Mexicanos_ which
>>also contains some poems attributed to Nezahualcoyotl.
>
>Controversy? Interesting. This is unknown to me. Can you eleborate?
>
>Thank you,
>-XiKano
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
>http://profiles.msn.com.


*************************************************
Rudy V. Busto		rude at leland.stanford.edu
Assistant Professor		 415.552.0257
Religious Studies
Stanford University
(ON LEAVE 1999-2000)


From Amapohuani at aol.com  Mon Aug 28 23:45:59 2000
From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 19:45:59 EDT
Subject: Bierhorst
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.194559.EDT.>

Listeros:

Also see James Lockhart's "Care, Ingenuity, and Irresponsibility: The
Bierhorst Edition of the Cantares Mexicanos" in NAHUAS AND SPANIARDS:
Postconquest Central Mexican History and Philology (UCLA Latin American
Center Publications, 1991).

I have also seen (albeit some time ago) Miguel Leon-Portilla's article on
same.

Does anyone know if John Bierhorst publicly and in print replied to these and
other commentaries?

Ye ixquich.
Barry


From apaneco at saltel.net  Mon Aug  7 12:29:04 2000
From: apaneco at saltel.net (Howard Quilliam Dickens)
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 13:29:04 +0100
Subject: The use of XIHUIT
Message-ID: <MON.7.AUG.2000.132904.0100.>

As a student of nahuat, here in El Salvador, I am experiencing problems
with the use of the word XIHUIT.
Dictionaries translate this word as "year" or "green stone" etc. however
local nahuat speakers appear to use this word in general manner to indicate
the passing of time. e.g

Xihuit chupi pal tiyauj titaketsa muuanka. (time is short for us to speak
together)

Am I confusing this with "chi-uit" as the participle "chi" (to make) is
also used here to imply the passing of time; as in:

chiyakiya yek

I know that there are differences between nahuat and nahuat-l, in
particular in the use of grammer. However I do find that nahuat-l
frequently provides good indicators in the translation of nahuat. Therefore
any ideas are more than welcome.

Tasukamati uan tiyaua yamanik!

Howard Dickens


From campbel at indiana.edu  Tue Aug 29 06:52:09 2000
From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 01:52:09 -0500
Subject: The use of XIHUIT
In-Reply-To: <20000829024024665.AAA380@estelecom01.saltel.com@laptop>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.AUG.2000.015209.0500.>

Howard,
   I think that people who are studying 'tl' variants of Nahuatl and those
who are doing 't' variants have a lot to gain from exchanging information
with each other.  Of course, in addition to the 'tl' vs. 't' difference,
there will be some vocabulary differences too...
   The issue of "xihuitl" is fairly straightforward:  the stem probably
basically refers to 'leaf' and 'greenery' and is then extended to other
meanings involving time and seasons.  'Leaves' mark the years, just as
'moons' mark the months and 'snows' also mark the years.
   I was interested in your example of "chi" (to make) involving the
passage of time -- it might be interesting to see if it involves the stem
"chi(y)a" 'to wait' (unrelated to "chihua" 'do, make').  What are some
examples of your "chi"?  What does "chiyakiya yek" mean?  How do you say
'I will wait for you' or 'Wait for me'?

Saludos,

Joe


From dakin at servidor.unam.mx  Tue Aug 29 14:05:47 2000
From: dakin at servidor.unam.mx (Karen Dakin)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 09:05:47 -0500
Subject: The heart of it
In-Reply-To: <cc.95d06b5.26db871b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.AUG.2000.090547.0500.>

on 8/28/00 4:12 AM, Rmedinagarcia at aol.com at Rmedinagarcia at aol.com wrote:

> In Nahuatl theres seems to be a predilection for compound words.  Seeing this
> I wonder if there is a known relationship between yollotl (heart) and the
> suffix -yotl.  Once -yotl is added Thelma D. Sullivan states "the noun
> expresses a quality or attribute that is independen in meaning from that of
> the noun .  .  ." (Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar p. 18).  The Aztecs like
> many people believed the heart to represent the essence of the person.  For
> example toltecatl (the people) tolteca+yotl (the culture, the essence of the
> people).  Another example is nantli (mother) and nan+yotl (motherhood, the
> heart of being a mother or the essence of being a mother).  Do yollotl and
> -yotl have a similar meaning?
>
> Ricardo
>
Although by just looking at Nahuatl this would seem possible, if you look at
comparative Uto-Aztecan data, it seems doubtful that there is a relationship
between yo:llo:tl 'heart' and the -yo:-tl suffix.  The first seems to be
cognate with Uto-Aztecan *pe (e should be a barred i but I can't send it by
e-mail), and there is a lot of evidence that the -yo:-tl is a variant of the
-lo:-tl suffix conditioned by preceding old vowels (that have been lost in
Nahuatl). The -yo:-tl and its variants are, I believe, cognate with the
Tarahumara and Guarijio possessive -ra, as well as with Cora and Huichol
-ra'awe and Tepiman -da. There are a number of words from UA languages
besides both *pe / yo:llo:tl and the possessive -ra/-yo:- suffix that show
the same two sets of correspondences, so it is systematic to my eyes at
least.


From xikano_1 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 29 14:10:28 2000
From: xikano_1 at hotmail.com (XiKano *)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 07:10:28 PDT
Subject: Bierhorst
Message-ID: <TUE.29.AUG.2000.071028.PDT.>

>Listeros:
>
>Also see James Lockhart's "Care, Ingenuity, and Irresponsibility: The
>Bierhorst Edition of the Cantares Mexicanos" in NAHUAS AND SPANIARDS:
>Postconquest Central Mexican History and Philology (UCLA Latin American
>Center Publications, 1991).

Bierhorst edition? Curious. Are there other editions?

Regards,
Marcos Romero-Ochoa

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
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From Huaxyacac at aol.com  Tue Aug 29 14:26:29 2000
From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:26:29 EDT
Subject: Bierhorst
Message-ID: <TUE.29.AUG.2000.102629.EDT.>

Since the question about other editions was asked, what about Brinton? His
Ancient Nahuatl Poetry is obviously a bit old (1890), but does include facing
page Nahuatl originals and translations. Are his translations, or his
transcriptions, even worth looking at?

Just curious.
Alec Christensen
Rutgers-Camden


From rude at leland.stanford.edu  Wed Aug 30 17:37:42 2000
From: rude at leland.stanford.edu (Rudiger V. Busto)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 10:37:42 -0700
Subject: Bierhorst Bashing
In-Reply-To: <a04310102b66ec7be4053@[38.27.175.245]>
Message-ID: <WED.30.AUG.2000.103742.0700.>

Friends,
 Recently I was comparing the translations of the Cantares quoted by
Leon-Portilla in his "Testimonios Nahuas..." with Bierhorst's and was
surprised by the differences:

folio 42v: lines 6-7 [Bierhorst, p. 272]:

Yc ompahualli ye anchicueytica necahualo tlatemachilo ye o~ tlaocoyalotoc
nentlamachotoc ye ixquichan motlachihualhua~ ye cemanahuaco ohuiya

Bierhorst [p. 273]:

For forty-eight days there's fasting, there's rationing.  All your
creatures throughout the world are sad and afflicted.

Leon-Portilla [p. 19; english trans. of Spanish by Julie Goodson-Lawes]:

Ya durante dos cuentas de dias, por ocho veces, se ha hecho el ayuno, se ha
cumplido la penitencia.  Han estado apesadumbrados, han estado afligidos,
cuantos son hechura Tuya, aqui en la tierra, rodeada por todas partes de
agua.

[For two counts of days, for eight times there has been fasting, the
penance has been completed.  They have been afflicted, they have been
distressed, all your creations, here on the earth, surrounded on all sides
by water]

I don't have any particular expertise on the Ghost Dance interpretation
(but have my intuitions), but was most surprised by the brevity and
incompleteness of Bierhorst's English translation, particularly when he
writes (128):  The Translation is an undoctored English rendering of the
Cantares mexicanos, ruthlessly preserving the sequence of matter, including
erroneous scholia, headings, and asides inserted by the Cantares glossator.
It is intended as a neutral instrument, which the reader may use in
formulating his own interpretations."

For those without any facility in Nahuatl, the line-by-line translations
seem less than "ruthlessly preserved" for the English-only reader.  I don't
have any particular ax to grind with Bierhorst, but am somewhat concerned
about the technical apparatus.




*************************************************
Rudy V. Busto		rude at leland.stanford.edu
Assistant Professor		 415.552.0257
Religious Studies
Stanford University
(ON LEAVE 1999-2000)


From apaneco at saltel.net  Thu Aug 10 14:04:39 2000
From: apaneco at saltel.net (Howard Quilliam Dickens)
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:04:39 +0100
Subject: The use of XIHUIT
Message-ID: <THU.10.AUG.2000.150439.0100.>

----------
> From: r. joe campbell <campbel at indiana.edu>
> To: Nahuat-l List members <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
> Subject: Re: The use of XIHUIT
> Date: 29 August 2000 07:52
>
> Howard,
>    I think that people who are studying 'tl' variants of Nahuatl and
those
> who are doing 't' variants have a lot to gain from exchanging information
> with each other.  Of course, in addition to the 'tl' vs. 't' difference,
> there will be some vocabulary differences too...
>    The issue of "xihuitl" is fairly straightforward:  the stem probably
> basically refers to 'leaf' and 'greenery' and is then extended to other
> meanings involving time and seasons.  'Leaves' mark the years, just as
> 'moons' mark the months and 'snows' also mark the years.
>    I was interested in your example of "chi" (to make) involving the
> passage of time -- it might be interesting to see if it involves the stem
> "chi(y)a" 'to wait' (unrelated to "chihua" 'do, make').  What are some
> examples of your "chi"?  What does "chiyakiya yek" mean?  How do you say
> 'I will wait for you' or 'Wait for me'?
>
> Saludos,
>
> Joe

Joe
Thanks for your comments.
Here in El Salvador we do differentiate between "chi" to make and
"cheya"(CHI(Y)A) to wait.
In answer to your question;
I will wait for you = ni-yauj ni-mits-cheya kiuni
Wait for me = ti-yauj ti-nech-cheya kiuni.

Regarding "chi" and "chiua" (CHIHUA);  the latter is used here but  only in
infinite and future constructs In all other cases the UA suffix is dropped,
although there is a rare use of a preterit "Chiuak"
e.g.
past participle: chijtuk
ye uipta naja ni-chijtuk se nuhuitsut  (The day before yesterday I was
making a hoe)

passive: chi-at
niyauj ni-uika ne kuauit pal nik-chiat se nuhuitsut ( I go to carry the
wood for to make a hoe)

present participle: chiyakiya or chijkiya
tay ti-chiyakiya nemi yek  saman (what you are making is coming good?)

"chi" or " chij" also seems to appear in such words as chijcultic (chij (to
make) + cultic (something twisted)
These are examples of everyday speech in and around the town of Tacuba here
in El Salvador. These expressions may be contractions; I do not know as I
have no other accurate reference other than the spoken word.
 In relation to the use of "chi" or "chij" in terms of the passage of time.
Time appears to be related to physical events rather than an abstract
notion i.e the only indication of the passage of time is the phenomena of a
physical event. (not bad physics when you think about it).
e.g. yeka-chiua naui tunal pal tikualat ka-nikan. (must make four days to
come to be here)
       chijkiya chupi pal tiktakuat saman (lit. making little for you
thereby to eat now) (there being little time   for you to eat now).
Of the above the first relates to time being expressed as the making of
something specific i.e. four suns, while the latter is none specific;
referring only to the act of making something.
Regarding "xiuit", I have spoken to my tutors, ( the campesinos of Tacuba)
and they are adamant in maintaining their strange use of the word. Further
investigation needed!
"chiyakiya yek"  (making good or the right time is coming)
e.g. chiyakiya yek pal nikitat ne nu-ixtakasiuat (the right time is coming
for me to see
my mistress)

Sorry about the delay in replying my telephone link is rather erratic.
Tiyaua yek saman.
Howard


From info at abbateconsulting.com  Fri Aug 11 08:00:58 2000
From: info at abbateconsulting.com (Abbate Consulting)
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:00:58 +0200
Subject: Summer Holydays
Message-ID: <FRI.11.AUG.2000.100058.0200.>

This msg is to inform you that our office will be closed since August 18th until September 4th.

Best regards

A.ABBATE
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From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx  Mon Aug 14 18:50:18 2000
From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 13:50:18 -0500
Subject: tla:n vs. titlan
Message-ID: <MON.14.AUG.2000.135018.0500.>

I'm sorry, I know this has been answered before, but as far as tla:n vs
ti+tlan, which is correct, the Analytical Dictionary or the Foundation
Course?
    Techtlapopolhuica
    John Sullivan
    Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas


From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Aug 15 00:38:19 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 20:38:19 -0400
Subject: tla:n vs. titlan
Message-ID: <MON.14.AUG.2000.203819.0400.>

Oh my gosh!  Previously it was posted to the list that I had reversed these
things in a dashed-off message to a listero.  I was embarrassed and pointed
out to everyone that the published dictionary is the one to trust.  Now it
turns out that the reversal also appears on p. 43 of the Foundation Course.
Please, please, please trust the dictionary.

In the Foundation course, what has been reversed is the glosses.  Where it
reads "-tlan 'near' and -tla:n 'below'" it should read "-tlan 'below' and
-tla:n 'near.'  The following business about the ligature -ti- being used
with -tlan is correct, but then the glosses are reversed again in the two
examples.

It's bizarre that so many classes have gone through the Foundation Course
without this particular glitch coming to our attention.  Thanks, John, for
finally spotting it!

Fran

----------
>From: John Sullivan <jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx>
>To: nahuat-l <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
>Subject: tla:n vs. titlan
>Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000, 2:50 PM
>

> I'm sorry, I know this has been answered before, but as far as tla:n vs
> ti+tlan, which is correct, the Analytical Dictionary or the Foundation
> Course?
>     Techtlapopolhuica
>     John Sullivan
>     Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
>


From indus56 at telusplanet.net  Tue Aug 15 04:28:21 2000
From: indus56 at telusplanet.net (Paul Anderson)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:28:21 -0600
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <MON.14.AUG.2000.222821.0600.>

Dear fellow subscribers to Nahuat-l:

I?m a new subscriber and this is my first posting. I?ve had some initial
difficulty accessing the archives, so am not sure whether it?s customary
for newbies here to introduce themselves. As will quickly be apparent,
I?m not a professional in the field of Nahuatl studies.

I?m currently wrapping up my first novel, based in part on the life of
Sor Juana In?s de la Cruz, and am delighted to be able to say that it
has just been accepted by Random House of Canada. While in Mexico on a
research trip in 1995, I had the great delight of speaking with Dr.
Patrick Johannsen (sp.) at UNAM for a couple of hours about Sor Juana?s
use of Nahuatl in her poetry.

Did he, I asked, have any opinion on just how well she used or spoke the
language?

By sheer happenstance he was then completing a paper on the topic, and
felt her usage to be highly sophisticated. This was consistent with some
notions I?d been noodling with regarding her first 11 years of life in
Nepantla and Panoyan. My publisher has asked for more from this period
and I?m happy to try to oblige. It?s natural to suppose there were a
number of Nahua speakers among the workers of both haciendas. I?ve come
up with a Nahua-speaking wetnurse, whose daughter is Juana?s age, and
her best friend.

In one chapter I have her wetnurse and best friend teaching her Nahua
proverbs during a long, bumpy ride by mule cart from Nepantla through
Chimalhuacan and into Nepantla. I?ve been working with a few of the
proverbs published in Thelma Sullivan?s _A Scattering of Jades_.

If there were anyone out there willing to look over the chapter as a
whole, I would of course be thrilled.

In the meantime, I have so far a few words or phrases I?m looking for
the Nahua equivalent of:

?Yes, hurry up.?
(Spoken, or rather parroted, impatiently by an imperious two-year-old
(Juana) to a small group of Macehual fieldhands.)

?Twins?
I have ?cocoa? for serpents, as in, perhaps, ?dragon twins? but these
two little girls fancy themselves twins also. Would ?Cocoa? (pl.?) be
something they might run through a courtyard shouting as the equivalent
of: [we are] Twins! Mellisas! Cocoas!

?Ixayac?
I have this for ?face?. It is a rock face, but the two girls call their
secret place that because it looks like a human face or mask. (There has
been discussion of masks already in the chapter.)

I know how it is with long postings ? the shorter, the easier to answer.
So please feel free to weigh in with only one small bit.

And please accept my heartfelt thanks in advance.

Yours sincerely,

Paul Anderson


From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Aug 15 10:18:13 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 06:18:13 -0400
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <TUE.15.AUG.2000.061813.0400.>

The fact of the matter is that in the collected works of Sor Juana there are
just two poems that reflect her knowledge of Nahuatl.  One poem is entirely
in Nahuatl, and it contains numbers of infelicities of the sort that reflect
Spanish interference.  The other is a parody of how Nahuatl speakers speak
Spanish and is very much on the mark.

My guess is that she was very fluent in spoken Nahuatl that she learned by
ear as a child, but when she applied the extraordinarily high standard she
set for herself in her literary work, she realized that she did not command
the language's complex rhetorical structure sufficiently to write the
beautiful poetry she produced in Spanish, so she did not write more.

Fran Karttunen

----------
>From: Paul Anderson <indus56 at telusplanet.net>
>To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
>Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
>Date: Tue, Aug 15, 2000, 12:28 AM
>

> Dear fellow subscribers to Nahuat-l:
>
> I?m a new subscriber and this is my first posting. I?ve had some initial
> difficulty accessing the archives, so am not sure whether it?s customary
> for newbies here to introduce themselves. As will quickly be apparent,
> I?m not a professional in the field of Nahuatl studies.
>
> I?m currently wrapping up my first novel, based in part on the life of
> Sor Juana In?s de la Cruz, and am delighted to be able to say that it
> has just been accepted by Random House of Canada. While in Mexico on a
> research trip in 1995, I had the great delight of speaking with Dr.
> Patrick Johannsen (sp.) at UNAM for a couple of hours about Sor Juana?s
> use of Nahuatl in her poetry.
>
> Did he, I asked, have any opinion on just how well she used or spoke the
> language?
>
> By sheer happenstance he was then completing a paper on the topic, and
> felt her usage to be highly sophisticated. This was consistent with some
> notions I?d been noodling with regarding her first 11 years of life in
> Nepantla and Panoyan. My publisher has asked for more from this period
> and I?m happy to try to oblige. It?s natural to suppose there were a
> number of Nahua speakers among the workers of both haciendas. I?ve come
> up with a Nahua-speaking wetnurse, whose daughter is Juana?s age, and
> her best friend.
>
> In one chapter I have her wetnurse and best friend teaching her Nahua
> proverbs during a long, bumpy ride by mule cart from Nepantla through
> Chimalhuacan and into Nepantla. I?ve been working with a few of the
> proverbs published in Thelma Sullivan?s _A Scattering of Jades_.
>
> If there were anyone out there willing to look over the chapter as a
> whole, I would of course be thrilled.
>
> In the meantime, I have so far a few words or phrases I?m looking for
> the Nahua equivalent of:
>
> ?Yes, hurry up.?
> (Spoken, or rather parroted, impatiently by an imperious two-year-old
> (Juana) to a small group of Macehual fieldhands.)
>
> ?Twins?
> I have ?cocoa? for serpents, as in, perhaps, ?dragon twins? but these
> two little girls fancy themselves twins also. Would ?Cocoa? (pl.?) be
> something they might run through a courtyard shouting as the equivalent
> of: [we are] Twins! Mellisas! Cocoas!
>
> ?Ixayac?
> I have this for ?face?. It is a rock face, but the two girls call their
> secret place that because it looks like a human face or mask. (There has
> been discussion of masks already in the chapter.)
>
> I know how it is with long postings ? the shorter, the easier to answer.
> So please feel free to weigh in with only one small bit.
>
> And please accept my heartfelt thanks in advance.
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> Paul Anderson
>
>
>
>
>


From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx  Tue Aug 15 18:25:04 2000
From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 13:25:04 -0500
Subject: tla:n vs. titlan
In-Reply-To: <200008150024.UAA17696@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.AUG.2000.132504.0500.>

Hi Fran,
    The error is also on page 18 of Vol. 2: vocabulary and key.
John

on 8/14/00 7:38 PM, Frances Karttunen at karttu at nantucket.net wrote:

> Oh my gosh!  Previously it was posted to the list that I had reversed these
> things in a dashed-off message to a listero.  I was embarrassed and pointed
> out to everyone that the published dictionary is the one to trust.  Now it
> turns out that the reversal also appears on p. 43 of the Foundation Course.
> Please, please, please trust the dictionary.
>
> In the Foundation course, what has been reversed is the glosses.  Where it
> reads "-tlan 'near' and -tla:n 'below'" it should read "-tlan 'below' and
> -tla:n 'near.'  The following business about the ligature -ti- being used
> with -tlan is correct, but then the glosses are reversed again in the two
> examples.
>
> It's bizarre that so many classes have gone through the Foundation Course
> without this particular glitch coming to our attention.  Thanks, John, for
> finally spotting it!
>
> Fran
>
> ----------
>> From: John Sullivan <jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx>
>> To: nahuat-l <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
>> Subject: tla:n vs. titlan
>> Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000, 2:50 PM
>>
>
>> I'm sorry, I know this has been answered before, but as far as tla:n vs
>> ti+tlan, which is correct, the Analytical Dictionary or the Foundation
>> Course?
>> Techtlapopolhuica
>> John Sullivan
>> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
>>


From jdebuen at caliente.com.mx  Tue Aug 15 19:25:30 2000
From: jdebuen at caliente.com.mx (Jorge de Buen)
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:25:30 -0700
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
In-Reply-To: <3998C6E5.59FC8D53@telusplanet.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.AUG.2000.122530.0700.>

Paul Anderson wrote:

[...]
"Twins"
I have "cocoa" for serpents, as in, perhaps, "dragon twins" but these
two little girls fancy themselves twins also. Would "Cocoa" (pl.?) be
something they might run through a courtyard shouting as the equivalent
of: [we are] Twins! Mellisas! Cocoas!

I'm sorry I cannot help you with your query. Pero creo pertinente decirte
que _mellizas_ va con zeta.

Saludos.

Jorge de Buen U.
jdebuen at caliente.com.mx
Tijuana, M?xico


From indus56 at telusplanet.net  Tue Aug 15 20:37:56 2000
From: indus56 at telusplanet.net (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:37:56 -0600
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <TUE.15.AUG.2000.143756.0600.>

Jorge, creo pertinente agradacerte mil ... bezes.
(Just kidding, but seriously, thank you.)

Jorge de Buen wrote:

> Paul Anderson wrote:
>
> [...]
> "Twins"
> I have "cocoa" for serpents, as in, perhaps, "dragon twins" but these
> two little girls fancy themselves twins also. Would "Cocoa" (pl.?) be
> something they might run through a courtyard shouting as the equivalent
> of: [we are] Twins! Mellisas! Cocoas!
>
> I'm sorry I cannot help you with your query. Pero creo pertinente decirte
> que _mellizas_ va con zeta.
>
> Saludos.
>
> Jorge de Buen U.
> jdebuen at caliente.com.mx
> Tijuana, M?xico


From notoca at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 16 21:35:23 2000
From: notoca at hotmail.com (Chichiltic Coyotl)
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 21:35:23 WST
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <WED.16.AUG.2000.213523.WST.>

>Paul Anderson wrote
>
>?Ixayac?
>I have this for ?face?. It is a rock face, but the two girls call their
>secret place that because it looks like a human face or mask. (There has
>been discussion of masks already in the chapter.)
>

I have a question on i:xa:yac. The following are only my thoughts on the
meaning so please do not take them as being "gospel".
I:xa:yac ?appears? to be a compound of i:x-tli (face, eye, surface) and
xa:yaca-tl (face, mask). I'm assuming two things when these two nouns come
together - 1) the "x" from xa:yaca-tl is dropped and the length of the vowel
a: remains the same. This compound ?appears? to translate as "face mask" or
possibly it's just a doubling up of the words for "face", however, is this a
logical compound considering that xa:yaca-tl appears to cover both concepts
of "face" and "mask"? A compound like co:a:xa:yac "snake mask" would appear
to make more sense. Would xa:yaca-tl by itself suffice as a suitable
translation for "face mask"?

Did the Nahua have the same concepts for both "face" and "mask"?

Thanks,

EZR




________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


From karttu at nantucket.net  Wed Aug 16 17:00:55 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:00:55 -0400
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <WED.16.AUG.2000.130055.0400.>

i:xa:yac is the third-person-singular possessed form of xa:yactli.  When the
possessive prefix i:- is added, the absolutive suffix -tli drops off the
end.  Since xa:yactli itself means 'visage.' there's no need to compound it
with i:xtli 'face, eye.'  I:-xa:yac means 'his/her/its face/visage/mask.'

----------
>From: "Chichiltic Coyotl" <notoca at hotmail.com>
>To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
>Subject: Re: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
>Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000, 5:35 PM
>

>
>>Paul Anderson wrote
>>
>>?Ixayac?
>>I have this for ?face?. It is a rock face, but the two girls call their
>>secret place that because it looks like a human face or mask. (There has
>>been discussion of masks already in the chapter.)
>>
>
> I have a question on i:xa:yac. The following are only my thoughts on the
> meaning so please do not take them as being "gospel".
> I:xa:yac ?appears? to be a compound of i:x-tli (face, eye, surface) and
> xa:yaca-tl (face, mask). I'm assuming two things when these two nouns come
> together - 1) the "x" from xa:yaca-tl is dropped and the length of the vowel
> a: remains the same. This compound ?appears? to translate as "face mask" or
> possibly it's just a doubling up of the words for "face", however, is this a
> logical compound considering that xa:yaca-tl appears to cover both concepts
> of "face" and "mask"? A compound like co:a:xa:yac "snake mask" would appear
> to make more sense. Would xa:yaca-tl by itself suffice as a suitable
> translation for "face mask"?
>
> Did the Nahua have the same concepts for both "face" and "mask"?
>
> Thanks,
>
> EZR
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>


From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx  Wed Aug 16 17:30:18 2000
From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan)
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 12:30:18 -0500
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F287JMJVeZ0RCm000016ab@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.16.AUG.2000.123018.0500.>

"i:xa:yac" is just the third person singular possessed form of "xa:yacatl",
"face". The last three letters are dropped in this form. Since "xa:yacatl"
is a body part, you will never see it in the unpossessed form. If you add
"cuahuitl", then you can get an unpossessed form, mask: "cuauhxa:yacatl".
    John Sullivan
    Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas

on 8/16/00 8:35 AM, Chichiltic Coyotl at notoca at hotmail.com wrote:

>
>> Paul Anderson wrote
>>
>> ?Ixayac?
>> I have this for ?face?. It is a rock face, but the two girls call their
>> secret place that because it looks like a human face or mask. (There has
>> been discussion of masks already in the chapter.)
>>
>
> I have a question on i:xa:yac. The following are only my thoughts on the
> meaning so please do not take them as being "gospel".
> I:xa:yac ?appears? to be a compound of i:x-tli (face, eye, surface) and
> xa:yaca-tl (face, mask). I'm assuming two things when these two nouns come
> together - 1) the "x" from xa:yaca-tl is dropped and the length of the vowel
> a: remains the same. This compound ?appears? to translate as "face mask" or
> possibly it's just a doubling up of the words for "face", however, is this a
> logical compound considering that xa:yaca-tl appears to cover both concepts
> of "face" and "mask"? A compound like co:a:xa:yac "snake mask" would appear
> to make more sense. Would xa:yaca-tl by itself suffice as a suitable
> translation for "face mask"?
>
> Did the Nahua have the same concepts for both "face" and "mask"?
>
> Thanks,
>
> EZR
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>


From arturo at lge.com  Wed Aug 16 18:18:54 2000
From: arturo at lge.com (Arturo Gallo)
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:18:54 KST
Subject: Translation
Message-ID: <WED.16.AUG.2000.181854.KST.>

Hello list, i need to translate a phrase written in nahuatl perhaps
you can help me, is some kind of homework, i just don't know where
else to look for help:

"cuautleco totonal, ye oxepa thahuilla"

the teacher gave that to us, i don't even know if it's well written,
do you think you can help me?

Thanks in advance...

Arturo.


From campbel at indiana.edu  Thu Aug 17 05:19:22 2000
From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 00:19:22 -0500
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
In-Reply-To: <B5C039DA.1F8%jsullivan@prodigy.net.mx>
Message-ID: <THU.17.AUG.2000.001922.0500.>

   I'm sorry that this suffers from some irregularities, but the hour is
getting late...  The empty () citations come from the Florentine Codex, as
do the FC items.  The ___ items are ones that still lack a gloss in the
database.
  The "m" citations are all from Molina's three dictionaries, as follows:
   55m   1555  Spanish-Nahuatl
   71m1  1571  Spanish-Nahuatl
   71m2  1571  Nahuatl-Spanish

   The Molina citations contain Molina's original Spanish glosses, but the
Florentine items are translated into English.  And due to a variety of
factors, the list undoubtedly contains items which are NOT RELATED to
"xayacatl".

Saludos,

Joe



  amaxayacatl. caratula de papel; maxcara de papel (55m, 71m1, 71m2).
  axaxayacatamalli. water fly tamale (FC).
  axaxayacatl. cierta sauandija de agua como moxca; ___; water fly; waterfly
    (71m2, FC).
  chichihualli xayacatl, tla-. maxcara o caratula (71m1).
  coaxayacatl. ___ (FC).
  coaxayacayo. ___ ().
  cohuaxayacayo. ___ ().
  cuauhxayacatl. caratula de palo; caratula de madera (71m1, 71m2).
  cuauhxayacatl <y assi delas de mas>. caratula de palo (55m).
  cuitlaxayacatl. las caderas del cuerpo (71m2).
  iocxayac. his wine face ().
  ixayac. ___; her face; his face; his mask; its face ().
  ixayacatia, qu-. he gives it a face ().
  memexayac, in-. their maguey leaf mask ().
  mexayacatiaya, mo-. they put on maguey leaf masks ().
  mictimomana in noxayac. demudarse el color; demudarse, el color (55m,
    71m1).
  moxayac. your face ().
  noxayac. my face ().
  omictimoman in ixayac. demudado assi (71m1).
  quimoxayacatia. he uses it as a face, it shows on his face (FC).
  quinmemexayacatiaya. ___ ().
  quixayacatiaya. they provided it with a mask ().
  quixtia inixayac, nic-. parecer a otro enla cara (71m1).
  quiyauhxayac, i-. his rain mask (FC).
  tlacaxayaque. ___; having a human face; man-faced, having a face like a
    person ().
  tlachichihualli xayacatl. maxcara o caratula (55m).
  tlalocaxayac, i-. his tlaloc mask (FC).
  tlaxayacatiani. ___ ().
  tocuitlaxayac. our hip ().
  toxayac. cara; la cara; our face (71m1, 71m2, FC).
  xayac, i-. his face; its face ().
  xayac, in-. their face; their faces ().
  xayac, mo-. your face ().
  xayacatia, nicno- (onicnoxayacati). emmaxcararse con ruynes costumbres.
    metaphora (71m2).
  xayacatia, nite-. caratula poner a otro; caratula o maxcara poner a otro
    (55m, 71m1).
  xayacatia, nite- (onitexayacati). emmaxcarar a otro (71m2).
  xayacatiaya, qui-. he provided it with a mask (FC).
  xayacatiaya, quin-. they placed masks on them ().
  xayacatl. cara; caratula generalmente; gesto la cara; haz por la cara del
    hombre; rostro o cara; cara; caratula generalmente; gesto, la cara; haz,
    por la cara o rostro del hombre; rostro o cara; cara o rostro, caratula o
    maxcara; face; mask (55m, 71m1, 71m2, FC).
  xayacatlachichihualli. maxcara o caratula; caratula o maxcara (55m, 71m1,
    71m2).
  xayacayotia, nite-. hazer los rostros alas ymagines, o emmaxcarar a tro
    (71m1).
  xayacayotia, nite- (onitexayacayoti). emmaxcarar a otro (71m2).
  xayacayotia, nitla- (onitlaxayacayoti). hazer los rostros alas imagines que
    se pintan ().
  xayahualli. ___ (FC).
  xayahualoc. ___ ().
  xiuhcoaxayacatl. turquoise serpent mask ().
  xiuhxayac, i-. his turquoise mask ().
  xiuhxayacatl. turquoise mosaic mask ().
  zoquixayacatl <yassi de las de mas s.>


From karttu at nantucket.net  Thu Aug 17 11:20:20 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 07:20:20 -0400
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <THU.17.AUG.2000.072020.0400.>

In the list Joe generated for us, notice this apparent difrasismo for mask:
'breast (chi:chi:hualli), face (xa:yacatl)'

>   chichihualli xayacatl



But further on in Joe's list, we find:  'something counterfeit
(tlachihchi:hualli), face (xa:yacatl)'

>   tlachichihualli xayacatl. maxcara o caratula (55m).



And then a compound in the other order: 'something face-wise counterfeit':

>   xayacatlachichihualli. maxcara o caratula; caratula o maxcara (55m, 71m1,
71m2)



The latter two cast doubt on what at first looked like a neat difrasismo.
We look again and see that in fact the first entry has a tla- tucked in
there at the end:

>   chichihualli xayacatl, tla-. maxcara o caratula (71m1).




So chi:chi:hualli ('breast') figures in none of these.

It is assembly of information from within and across sources, as Joe so
often does for this list, that helps us avoid false etymologies, a problem
that has plagued Nahuatl studies at least since the publication of Simeon's
dictionary.


From melesan at pacbell.net  Fri Aug 18 21:56:09 2000
From: melesan at pacbell.net (melesan at pacbell.net)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 14:56:09 -0700
Subject: Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <FRI.18.AUG.2000.145609.0700.>

Paul,

Use the mexicanismo for twin what my high school students in Santa Ana, Ca
use for twin:  cuate from coatl from Quetzalcoatl.  One of the aspects of
this diety was that he was the morning and evening star, Venus.  His twin
was Xolotl (from which I believe but will have to substantiate comes the
word cholo, used throughout Latin America).  See Alfonso Caso's El Pueblo
del Sol (The People of the Sun) for a more scholarly explanation.

Would love to read any part of your novel beforehand.  Am a high school
teacher and we delve into Sor Juana and Mexica or Aztec culture in my high
school Spanish for Spanish Speakers courses.

Mel Sanchez.

Paul Anderson wrote:

> Dear fellow subscribers to Nahuat-l:
>
> I?m a new subscriber and this is my first posting. I?ve had some initial
> difficulty accessing the archives, so am not sure whether it?s customary
> for newbies here to introduce themselves. As will quickly be apparent,
> I?m not a professional in the field of Nahuatl studies.
>
> I?m currently wrapping up my first novel, based in part on the life of
> Sor Juana In?s de la Cruz, and am delighted to be able to say that it
> has just been accepted by Random House of Canada. While in Mexico on a
> research trip in 1995, I had the great delight of speaking with Dr.
> Patrick Johannsen (sp.) at UNAM for a couple of hours about Sor Juana?s
> use of Nahuatl in her poetry.
>
> Did he, I asked, have any opinion on just how well she used or spoke the
> language?
>
> By sheer happenstance he was then completing a paper on the topic, and
> felt her usage to be highly sophisticated. This was consistent with some
> notions I?d been noodling with regarding her first 11 years of life in
> Nepantla and Panoyan. My publisher has asked for more from this period
> and I?m happy to try to oblige. It?s natural to suppose there were a
> number of Nahua speakers among the workers of both haciendas. I?ve come
> up with a Nahua-speaking wetnurse, whose daughter is Juana?s age, and
> her best friend.
>
> In one chapter I have her wetnurse and best friend teaching her Nahua
> proverbs during a long, bumpy ride by mule cart from Nepantla through
> Chimalhuacan and into Nepantla. I?ve been working with a few of the
> proverbs published in Thelma Sullivan?s _A Scattering of Jades_.
>
> If there were anyone out there willing to look over the chapter as a
> whole, I would of course be thrilled.
>
> In the meantime, I have so far a few words or phrases I?m looking for
> the Nahua equivalent of:
>
> ?Yes, hurry up.?
> (Spoken, or rather parroted, impatiently by an imperious two-year-old
> (Juana) to a small group of Macehual fieldhands.)
>
> ?Twins?
> I have ?cocoa? for serpents, as in, perhaps, ?dragon twins? but these
> two little girls fancy themselves twins also. Would ?Cocoa? (pl.?) be
> something they might run through a courtyard shouting as the equivalent
> of: [we are] Twins! Mellisas! Cocoas!
>
> ?Ixayac?
> I have this for ?face?. It is a rock face, but the two girls call their
> secret place that because it looks like a human face or mask. (There has
> been discussion of masks already in the chapter.)
>
> I know how it is with long postings ? the shorter, the easier to answer.
> So please feel free to weigh in with only one small bit.
>
> And please accept my heartfelt thanks in advance.
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> Paul Anderson


From Rmedinagarcia at aol.com  Wed Aug 23 01:10:55 2000
From: Rmedinagarcia at aol.com (Rmedinagarcia at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 21:10:55 EDT
Subject: third person singular
Message-ID: <TUE.22.AUG.2000.211055.EDT.>

Hello,
     This is my first posting.  I am trying to learn Nahuatl from Horcasita's Nahuatl Practico.  How do you differentiate gender for the third person singular: yehuatl? Is it implied that the gender is always male?
                          Ricardo


From karttu at nantucket.net  Wed Aug 23 02:06:02 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:06:02 -0400
Subject: third person singular
Message-ID: <TUE.22.AUG.2000.220602.0400.>

----------
>From: Rmedinagarcia at aol.com
>To: <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
>Subject: third person singular
>Date: Tue, Aug 22, 2000, 9:10 PM
>

> Hello,
>      This is my first posting.  I am trying to learn Nahuatl from
> Horcasita's Nahuatl Practico.  How do you differentiate gender for the
> third person singular: yehuatl? Is it implied that the gender is always male?
>                           Ricardo

Better yet!  There is no grammatical distinction between masculine and
feminine.  If it's REALLY important, one must say so.  Otherwise, Nahuatl
prvides a gender-free context.


There ARE distinctions made grammatically between human and nonhuman (te:-
versus tla-) and animate versus inanimate (only animate entities--as Nahuas
perceive them, sometimes differently than we might--have distinct plural
forms).

As for third-person singular subject and object, they are determinable as
he/him, she/her, or it only by external context.  For plural, English is
more like Nahuatl than Spanish is: just they/them.


From indus56 at telusplanet.net  Thu Aug 24 00:32:58 2000
From: indus56 at telusplanet.net (Paul Anderson)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:32:58 -0600
Subject: Cuates, Cholos, Sor Juana, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <WED.23.AUG.2000.183258.0600.>

Mel Sanchez had been good enough to propose two Mexicanisms for "twin", and
had asked the list if anyone could confirm what he thought to be the
derivations ("cuate" from Quetzalcoatl; "cholo" from Xolotl). We're working on
it. Here's what a friend in Mexico City has turned up so far...

La verdad es que la palabra cuate la utilizamos para distinguir a los
hermanos que se gestan al mismo tiempo en un vientre materno pero cada cual
viene en su propia bolsa, porque fueron dos ?vulos los fecundados en el
mismo periodo por dos espermatozoides, pueden ser de sexo distinto y no son
id?nticos, a diferencia de los gemelos, twins, que vienen de  un mismo ?vulo
y por ello en la misma bolsa, son id?nticos y del mismo sexo.




melesan at pacbell.net wrote:

> Paul,
>
> Use the mexicanismo for twin what my high school students in Santa Ana, Ca
> use for twin:  cuate from coatl from Quetzalcoatl.  One of the aspects of
> this diety was that he was the morning and evening star, Venus.  His twin
> was Xolotl (from which I believe but will have to substantiate comes the
> word cholo, used throughout Latin America).  See Alfonso Caso's El Pueblo
> del Sol (The People of the Sun) for a more scholarly explanation.
>
> Would love to read any part of your novel beforehand.  Am a high school
> teacher and we delve into Sor Juana and Mexica or Aztec culture in my high
> school Spanish for Spanish Speakers courses.
>
> Mel Sanchez.
>
> Paul Anderson wrote:
>
> > Dear fellow subscribers to Nahuat-l:
> >
> > I?m a new subscriber and this is my first posting. I?ve had some initial
> > difficulty accessing the archives, so am not sure whether it?s customary
> > for newbies here to introduce themselves. As will quickly be apparent,
> > I?m not a professional in the field of Nahuatl studies.
> >
> > I?m currently wrapping up my first novel, based in part on the life of
> > Sor Juana In?s de la Cruz, and am delighted to be able to say that it
> > has just been accepted by Random House of Canada. While in Mexico on a
> > research trip in 1995, I had the great delight of speaking with Dr.
> > Patrick Johannsen (sp.) at UNAM for a couple of hours about Sor Juana?s
> > use of Nahuatl in her poetry.
> >
> > Did he, I asked, have any opinion on just how well she used or spoke the
> > language?
> >
> > By sheer happenstance he was then completing a paper on the topic, and
> > felt her usage to be highly sophisticated. This was consistent with some
> > notions I?d been noodling with regarding her first 11 years of life in
> > Nepantla and Panoyan. My publisher has asked for more from this period
> > and I?m happy to try to oblige. It?s natural to suppose there were a
> > number of Nahua speakers among the workers of both haciendas. I?ve come
> > up with a Nahua-speaking wetnurse, whose daughter is Juana?s age, and
> > her best friend.
> >
> > In one chapter I have her wetnurse and best friend teaching her Nahua
> > proverbs during a long, bumpy ride by mule cart from Nepantla through
> > Chimalhuacan and into Nepantla. I?ve been working with a few of the
> > proverbs published in Thelma Sullivan?s _A Scattering of Jades_.
> >
> > If there were anyone out there willing to look over the chapter as a
> > whole, I would of course be thrilled.
> >
> > In the meantime, I have so far a few words or phrases I?m looking for
> > the Nahua equivalent of:
> >
> > ?Yes, hurry up.?
> > (Spoken, or rather parroted, impatiently by an imperious two-year-old
> > (Juana) to a small group of Macehual fieldhands.)
> >
> > ?Twins?
> > I have ?cocoa? for serpents, as in, perhaps, ?dragon twins? but these
> > two little girls fancy themselves twins also. Would ?Cocoa? (pl.?) be
> > something they might run through a courtyard shouting as the equivalent
> > of: [we are] Twins! Mellisas! Cocoas!
> >
> > ?Ixayac?
> > I have this for ?face?. It is a rock face, but the two girls call their
> > secret place that because it looks like a human face or mask. (There has
> > been discussion of masks already in the chapter.)
> >
> > I know how it is with long postings ? the shorter, the easier to answer.
> > So please feel free to weigh in with only one small bit.
> >
> > And please accept my heartfelt thanks in advance.
> >
> > Yours sincerely,
> >
> > Paul Anderson


From n8upb at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 24 00:54:29 2000
From: n8upb at yahoo.com (A. C. Garcia)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:54:29 -0700
Subject: Cuates, Cholos, Sor Juana, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <WED.23.AUG.2000.175429.0700.>

Cuate = Eagle

Cholo = Gangster or Pachuco

I am of the 1950 era



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From melesan at pacbell.net  Thu Aug 24 00:46:39 2000
From: melesan at pacbell.net (melesan at pacbell.net)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:46:39 -0700
Subject: Cuates, Cholos, Sor Juana, Nahuatl in the early years
Message-ID: <WED.23.AUG.2000.174639.0700.>

Paul and all,

I only think the word cholo comes from Xolotl. It doesn't mean twin.  For my kids,
it is a gang kid.  In Peru and Chile it is a person usually of African descent.  A
Bolivian told me it means handsome or well off.  Sorry if I gave you the wrong
impression.  Again, take a look at Alfonso Caso's El Pueblo del Sol to explain the
origin of cuate.  I'll look for the exact quote from Caso for you.

Mel

Paul Anderson wrote:

> Mel Sanchez had been good enough to propose two Mexicanisms for "twin", and
> had asked the list if anyone could confirm what he thought to be the
> derivations ("cuate" from Quetzalcoatl; "cholo" from Xolotl). We're working on
> it. Here's what a friend in Mexico City has turned up so far...
>
> La verdad es que la palabra cuate la utilizamos para distinguir a los
> hermanos que se gestan al mismo tiempo en un vientre materno pero cada cual
> viene en su propia bolsa, porque fueron dos ?vulos los fecundados en el
> mismo periodo por dos espermatozoides, pueden ser de sexo distinto y no son
> id?nticos, a diferencia de los gemelos, twins, que vienen de  un mismo ?vulo
> y por ello en la misma bolsa, son id?nticos y del mismo sexo.
>
> melesan at pacbell.net wrote:
>
> > Paul,
> >
> > Use the mexicanismo for twin what my high school students in Santa Ana, Ca
> > use for twin:  cuate from coatl from Quetzalcoatl.  One of the aspects of
> > this diety was that he was the morning and evening star, Venus.  His twin
> > was Xolotl (from which I believe but will have to substantiate comes the
> > word cholo, used throughout Latin America).  See Alfonso Caso's El Pueblo
> > del Sol (The People of the Sun) for a more scholarly explanation.
> >
> > Would love to read any part of your novel beforehand.  Am a high school
> > teacher and we delve into Sor Juana and Mexica or Aztec culture in my high
> > school Spanish for Spanish Speakers courses.
> >
> > Mel Sanchez.
> >
> > Paul Anderson wrote:
> >
> > > Dear fellow subscribers to Nahuat-l:
> > >
> > > I?m a new subscriber and this is my first posting. I?ve had some initial
> > > difficulty accessing the archives, so am not sure whether it?s customary
> > > for newbies here to introduce themselves. As will quickly be apparent,
> > > I?m not a professional in the field of Nahuatl studies.
> > >
> > > I?m currently wrapping up my first novel, based in part on the life of
> > > Sor Juana In?s de la Cruz, and am delighted to be able to say that it
> > > has just been accepted by Random House of Canada. While in Mexico on a
> > > research trip in 1995, I had the great delight of speaking with Dr.
> > > Patrick Johannsen (sp.) at UNAM for a couple of hours about Sor Juana?s
> > > use of Nahuatl in her poetry.
> > >
> > > Did he, I asked, have any opinion on just how well she used or spoke the
> > > language?
> > >
> > > By sheer happenstance he was then completing a paper on the topic, and
> > > felt her usage to be highly sophisticated. This was consistent with some
> > > notions I?d been noodling with regarding her first 11 years of life in
> > > Nepantla and Panoyan. My publisher has asked for more from this period
> > > and I?m happy to try to oblige. It?s natural to suppose there were a
> > > number of Nahua speakers among the workers of both haciendas. I?ve come
> > > up with a Nahua-speaking wetnurse, whose daughter is Juana?s age, and
> > > her best friend.
> > >
> > > In one chapter I have her wetnurse and best friend teaching her Nahua
> > > proverbs during a long, bumpy ride by mule cart from Nepantla through
> > > Chimalhuacan and into Nepantla. I?ve been working with a few of the
> > > proverbs published in Thelma Sullivan?s _A Scattering of Jades_.
> > >
> > > If there were anyone out there willing to look over the chapter as a
> > > whole, I would of course be thrilled.
> > >
> > > In the meantime, I have so far a few words or phrases I?m looking for
> > > the Nahua equivalent of:
> > >
> > > ?Yes, hurry up.?
> > > (Spoken, or rather parroted, impatiently by an imperious two-year-old
> > > (Juana) to a small group of Macehual fieldhands.)
> > >
> > > ?Twins?
> > > I have ?cocoa? for serpents, as in, perhaps, ?dragon twins? but these
> > > two little girls fancy themselves twins also. Would ?Cocoa? (pl.?) be
> > > something they might run through a courtyard shouting as the equivalent
> > > of: [we are] Twins! Mellisas! Cocoas!
> > >
> > > ?Ixayac?
> > > I have this for ?face?. It is a rock face, but the two girls call their
> > > secret place that because it looks like a human face or mask. (There has
> > > been discussion of masks already in the chapter.)
> > >
> > > I know how it is with long postings ? the shorter, the easier to answer.
> > > So please feel free to weigh in with only one small bit.
> > >
> > > And please accept my heartfelt thanks in advance.
> > >
> > > Yours sincerely,
> > >
> > > Paul Anderson


From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx  Thu Aug 24 16:18:25 2000
From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:18:25 -0500
Subject: a regular problem with Molina
Message-ID: <THU.24.AUG.2000.111825.0500.>

Compa?eros,
    While correcting an article for a colleague, I came across a problem
with an entry in Molina. Specifically, the entry for "Reglar o regular cosa"
(p. 103recto in the Spanish section) gives us, "nauatile. nauatilpiani".
First of all, after consulting the Diccionario de Autoridades, I assume that
we are dealing with "regular" in the sense of "cloister and/or rules and
regulations". Second, the standard grammars indicate that the agentive forms
"-eh/-huah" and "-ni" refer to persons. Thus I assume that both "nauatile"
and "nauatilpiani" refer to persons of "religious orders" both before and
after the conquest. However, Molina's entry suggests that they may also
refer to "things". Any comments on this or any part of the preceding
analysis?
    John Sullivan
    Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas


From War14655 at aol.com  Thu Aug 24 20:42:09 2000
From: War14655 at aol.com (War14655 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 16:42:09 EDT
Subject: Looking for poems....
Message-ID: <THU.24.AUG.2000.164209.EDT.>

Can anyone help me find poems of Nezahual Coyotl in Nahuatl?  Thank you very
much...


From mosquerd at union.edu  Thu Aug 24 23:03:11 2000
From: mosquerd at union.edu (Daniel Mosquera)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 19:03:11 -0400
Subject: a regular problem with Molina
Message-ID: <THU.24.AUG.2000.190311.0400.>

The first entry for "regular" of the Diccionario de Autoridades may hold a clue.
It gives the meanings "comun, ordinario o natural" and follows this with an
example which presents the phrase "Hechas las regulares ceremonias..." It
appears that the definition Molina provides in his dictionary antecedes the
adjective in the same way, that is "regular cosa" or, in other words, cosa
regular, comun o natural. So your analysis that Molina also applies the meaning
to things may be accurate. I hope this may help.

Daniel Mosquera

John Sullivan wrote:

> Compa?eros,
>     While correcting an article for a colleague, I came across a problem
> with an entry in Molina. Specifically, the entry for "Reglar o regular cosa"
> (p. 103recto in the Spanish section) gives us, "nauatile. nauatilpiani".
> First of all, after consulting the Diccionario de Autoridades, I assume that
> we are dealing with "regular" in the sense of "cloister and/or rules and
> regulations". Second, the standard grammars indicate that the agentive forms
> "-eh/-huah" and "-ni" refer to persons. Thus I assume that both "nauatile"
> and "nauatilpiani" refer to persons of "religious orders" both before and
> after the conquest. However, Molina's entry suggests that they may also
> refer to "things". Any comments on this or any part of the preceding
> analysis?
>     John Sullivan
>     Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas

--
Daniel O. Mosquera
Assistant Professor of Spanish
Modern Languages & Literature
Union College
Schenectady, NY 12308

Tel: (518) 388-6415        Fax: (518) 388-6462
http://www1.union.edu/~mosquerd
--

"If we could see ourselves as others see us, we would vanish on the spot" -- E.
M. Cioran


From jessh827 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 25 00:37:19 2000
From: jessh827 at yahoo.com (J H)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:37:19 -0700
Subject: Looking for poems....
Message-ID: <THU.24.AUG.2000.173719.0700.>

Id be interested in that.

--- War14655 at aol.com wrote:
> Can anyone help me find poems of Nezahual Coyotl in
> Nahuatl?  Thank you very
> much...


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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From Rmedinagarcia at aol.com  Mon Aug 28 09:12:59 2000
From: Rmedinagarcia at aol.com (Rmedinagarcia at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 05:12:59 EDT
Subject: The heart of it
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.051259.EDT.>

In Nahuatl theres seems to be a predilection for compound words.  Seeing this
I wonder if there is a known relationship between yollotl (heart) and the
suffix -yotl.  Once -yotl is added Thelma D. Sullivan states "the noun
expresses a quality or attribute that is independen in meaning from that of
the noun .  .  ." (Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar p. 18).  The Aztecs like
many people believed the heart to represent the essence of the person.  For
example toltecatl (the people) tolteca+yotl (the culture, the essence of the
people).  Another example is nantli (mother) and nan+yotl (motherhood, the
heart of being a mother or the essence of being a mother).  Do yollotl and
-yotl have a similar meaning?

Ricardo


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Mon Aug 28 15:29:32 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 09:29:32 -0600
Subject: Looking for poems....
In-Reply-To: <20000825003719.23639.qmail@web805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.092932.0600.>

The most concise compilation is in _Nezahualcoyotl, Vida y Obra_ by Jose
Luis Martinez (Mexico: Fondo de Cultura Economica, 1972) which contains
most of the poems of N.

Other sources of the Poetry attributed to Nezahualcoyotl can be found in
the _Poesia Nahuatl_ 3 vols. edited and translated into Spanish by Angel
Maria Garibay.  There are selections from those volumes in Brigita
Leander's _Flor y Canto, also in Spanish.  A translation into English which
has caused much controversy is John Bierhorst's _Cantares Mexicanos_ which
also contains some poems attributed to Nezahualcoyotl.

John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                         FAX 406-243-5937
      	         http://www.umt.edu/history/Nahuatl


From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Mon Aug 28 15:59:50 2000
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:59:50 -0400
Subject: Looking for poems....
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.115950.0400.>

Also on this subject of the poetry of Nezahualcoyotl, one has to be careful
about what authorship means in the Nahua context and whether attributing it to
Nezahualcoyotl is productive or not. Jong Soo Lee, a member of this list and now
at University of North Texas, has just finished writing a dissertation on
Nezahualcoyotl, and he deals with the question of authorship.
I'm sure you would have come across this issue, but I just wanted to put in a
plug for Jong Soo. :-)

Galen Brokaw
Lafayette College


From xikano_1 at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 28 16:06:18 2000
From: xikano_1 at hotmail.com (XiKano *)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 09:06:18 PDT
Subject: Looking for poems....
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.090618.PDT.>

>From: "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at selway.umt.edu>
A translation into
>English which
>has caused much controversy is John Bierhorst's _Cantares Mexicanos_ which
>also contains some poems attributed to Nezahualcoyotl.

Controversy? Interesting. This is unknown to me. Can you eleborate?

Thank you,
-XiKano
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From aaimi at mail.archi.it  Mon Aug 28 16:15:36 2000
From: aaimi at mail.archi.it (antonio aimi)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 18:15:36 +0200
Subject: nose ornament
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.181536.0200.>

Hi all,

does somebody know the nahuatl name of the nose ornament inserted in the nose of the tlatoque in accession ritual called "tecuhtli" ?

Thanks

Antonio
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From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Mon Aug 28 16:43:05 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 10:43:05 -0600
Subject: Looking for poems....
In-Reply-To: <LAW-F238nHmOEGqcGtb00000c28@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.104305.0600.>

At 09:06 AM 8/28/00 -0700, you wrote:
>>From: "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at selway.umt.edu>
>A translation into
>>English which
>>has caused much controversy is John Bierhorst's _Cantares Mexicanos_ which
>>also contains some poems attributed to Nezahualcoyotl.
>
>Controversy? Interesting. This is unknown to me. Can you eleborate?



Bierhorst holds that the poems in the Cantares Mexicanos were part of a
Nahua "Ghost Dance" ritual destined to revivify the essence of fallen
warriors in a crypto-rebellion against the Spanish.  No other scholar who
has studied the song cycle has been able to discover such a theme.



John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                         FAX 406-243-5937
      	         http://www.umt.edu/history/Nahuatl


From campbel at indiana.edu  Mon Aug 28 18:52:02 2000
From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 13:52:02 -0500
Subject: Bierhorst Bashing -- was  Looking for a poem...
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20000828104125.00c92220@selway.umt.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.135202.0500.>

Nocnihuan,
   As Fritz has pointed out, John Bierhorst is a member of a very small
set of scholars who hold his point of view about a Nahua Ghost Dance.  I
don't know enough to comment on the merits of his point of view or that of
his critics, but I am continually distressed at one of the biggest results
of the issue -- it distracts attention from **all the rest of the value**
in his two-volume work on the Cantares.
   I just consulted a Nahuatl scholar (whose opinion I respect and
sometimes agree with) <8-< and my question "Do you ever check Bierhorst?"
elicited the answer "Of course!!"  Further, "Does it ever help you?" got
the same answer.  Since I agreed with the reaction, naturally, my respect
for my colleague grew a notch.
   My humble opinion is that the community of Nahuatl scholars would gain
a lot by getting past the knee-jerk reaction to John's work on the basis
of one point of disagreement and take an extended look at the valuable
resource that he provided us with through what was a long period of
careful labor (preparation of the text and making that humongous
vocabulary!). Yotlan.

Saludos,

Joe


>
> Bierhorst holds that the poems in the Cantares Mexicanos were part of a
> Nahua "Ghost Dance" ritual destined to revivify the essence of fallen
> warriors in a crypto-rebellion against the Spanish.  No other scholar who
> has studied the song cycle has been able to discover such a theme.
>


From campbel at indiana.edu  Mon Aug 28 19:11:45 2000
From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:11:45 -0500
Subject: nose ornament
In-Reply-To: <001b01c0110b$a1a60b60$801ab9c2@default>
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.141145.0500.>

Antonio,
   Here are all the places in the Florentine Codex that contain both
"nose" and either "ornament" or "plug".  The locations given by book and
page may contain other information of interest to you.

Saludos,

Joe

p.d.  Some redundancy involved:

nose
     1.  and the array of tezcatzoncatl [was thus]: he had the white
          heron feather headdress; he had the crescent-shaped **nose**
          ornament, the ear plug of paper.
          auh in inechichihual tezcatzoncatl, aztatzone, yacametze,
              amanacoche, (b.1 f.3 p.51)
     2.  and all put in place the turquoise **nose** rods and inserted
          the turquoise ear plugs, indeed of turquoise; but some were
          only made of wood painted like turquoise.
          ihuan contlalia yacaxihuitl in mochinti, ihuan conaquia
              xiuhnacochtli, huel xihuitl. auh in cequintin zan cuahuitl  in
              tlachihualli, tlaxiuhicuilolli (b.2 f.10 p.164)
     3.  and [he had] his gold **nose** crescent, and his golden ear
          plugs.
          ihuan iteocuitlayacametz, ihuan iteocuitlanacoch, (b.9 f.5 p.69)
     4.  and [she had] her golden ear plugs and golden butterfly
          **nose** pendant, and her shift of variegated red [and white];
          just the same was her skirt.
          ihuan iteocuitlanacoch, ihuan iteocuitlayacapilpalouh, ihuan
              ihuipil tlappoyahuac: zan no iuhqui in icue, (b.9 f.6 p.79)
ornament
     1.  and the array of tezcatzoncatl [was thus]: he had the white
          heron feather headdress; he had the crescent-shaped nose
          **ornament**, the ear plug of paper.
          auh in inechichihual tezcatzoncatl, aztatzone, yacametze,
              amanacoche, (b.1 f.3 p.51)
pendant
     1.  and [she had] her golden ear plugs and golden butterfly nose
          **pendant**, and her shift of variegated red [and white]; just
          the same was her skirt.
          ihuan iteocuitlanacoch, ihuan iteocuitlayacapilpalouh, ihuan
              ihuipil tlappoyahuac: zan no iuhqui in icue, (b.9 f.6 p.79)
plug
     1.  and the array of tezcatzoncatl [was thus]: he had the white
          heron feather headdress; he had the crescent-shaped nose
          ornament, the ear **plug** of paper.
          auh in inechichihual tezcatzoncatl, aztatzone, yacametze,
              amanacoche, (b.1 f.3 p.51)
plugs
     1.  and all put in place the turquoise nose rods and inserted the
          turquoise ear **plugs**, indeed of turquoise; but some were
          only made of wood painted like turquoise.
          ihuan contlalia yacaxihuitl in mochinti, ihuan conaquia
              xiuhnacochtli, huel xihuitl. auh in cequintin zan cuahuitl  in
              tlachihualli, tlaxiuhicuilolli (b.2 f.10 p.164)
     2.  and [he had] his gold nose crescent, and his golden ear
          **plugs**.
          ihuan iteocuitlayacametz, ihuan iteocuitlanacoch, (b.9 f.5 p.69)
     3.  and [she had] her golden ear **plugs** and golden butterfly
          nose pendant, and her shift of variegated red [and white];
          just the same was her skirt.
          ihuan iteocuitlanacoch, ihuan iteocuitlayacapilpalouh, ihuan
              ihuipil tlappoyahuac: zan no iuhqui in icue, (b.9 f.6 p.79)
turquoise
     1.  and all put in place the **turquoise** nose rods and inserted
          the turquoise ear plugs, indeed of turquoise; but some were
          only made of wood painted like turquoise.
          ihuan contlalia yacaxihuitl in mochinti, ihuan conaquia
              xiuhnacochtli, huel xihuitl. auh in cequintin zan cuahuitl  in
              tlachihualli, tlaxiuhicuilolli (b.2 f.10 p.164)
     2.  and all put in place the turquoise nose rods and inserted the
          **turquoise** ear plugs, indeed of turquoise; but some were
          only made of wood painted like turquoise.
          ihuan contlalia yacaxihuitl in mochinti, ihuan conaquia
              xiuhnacochtli, huel xihuitl. auh in cequintin zan cuahuitl  in
              tlachihualli, tlaxiuhicuilolli (b.2 f.10 p.164)
     3.  and all put in place the turquoise nose rods and inserted the
          turquoise ear plugs, indeed of **turquoise**; but some were
          only made of wood painted like turquoise.
          ihuan contlalia yacaxihuitl in mochinti, ihuan conaquia
              xiuhnacochtli, huel xihuitl. auh in cequintin zan cuahuitl  in
              tlachihualli, tlaxiuhicuilolli (b.2 f.10 p.164)
     4.  and all put in place the turquoise nose rods and inserted the
          turquoise ear plugs, indeed of turquoise; but some were only
          made of wood painted like **turquoise**.
          ihuan contlalia yacaxihuitl in mochinti, ihuan conaquia
              xiuhnacochtli, huel xihuitl. auh in cequintin zan cuahuitl  in
              tlachihualli, tlaxiuhicuilolli (b.2 f.10 p.164)




On Mon, 28 Aug 2000, antonio aimi wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> does somebody know the nahuatl name of the nose ornament inserted in the nose of the tlatoque in accession ritual called "tecuhtli" ?
>
> Thanks
>
> Antonio
>
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From rude at leland.stanford.edu  Mon Aug 28 22:00:48 2000
From: rude at leland.stanford.edu (Rudiger V. Busto)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 15:00:48 -0700
Subject: Looking for poems....
In-Reply-To: <LAW-F238nHmOEGqcGtb00000c28@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.150048.0700.>

XiKano,
	Take a look at Leon-Portilla's review of Bierhorst's translations
of the Cantares in "Una Nueva Interpretacion de los Cantares Mexicanos?  La
Obra de John  Bierhorst" in Estudios de Cultura Nahuatl, vol. 18 (1986),
385-400.  Leon-Portilla addresses Bierhorst's interpretation of the
Cantares as "Ghost Songs" head on and in some detail.



>>From: "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr at selway.umt.edu>
>A translation into
>>English which
>>has caused much controversy is John Bierhorst's _Cantares Mexicanos_ which
>>also contains some poems attributed to Nezahualcoyotl.
>
>Controversy? Interesting. This is unknown to me. Can you eleborate?
>
>Thank you,
>-XiKano
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
>http://profiles.msn.com.


*************************************************
Rudy V. Busto		rude at leland.stanford.edu
Assistant Professor		 415.552.0257
Religious Studies
Stanford University
(ON LEAVE 1999-2000)


From Amapohuani at aol.com  Mon Aug 28 23:45:59 2000
From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 19:45:59 EDT
Subject: Bierhorst
Message-ID: <MON.28.AUG.2000.194559.EDT.>

Listeros:

Also see James Lockhart's "Care, Ingenuity, and Irresponsibility: The
Bierhorst Edition of the Cantares Mexicanos" in NAHUAS AND SPANIARDS:
Postconquest Central Mexican History and Philology (UCLA Latin American
Center Publications, 1991).

I have also seen (albeit some time ago) Miguel Leon-Portilla's article on
same.

Does anyone know if John Bierhorst publicly and in print replied to these and
other commentaries?

Ye ixquich.
Barry


From apaneco at saltel.net  Mon Aug  7 12:29:04 2000
From: apaneco at saltel.net (Howard Quilliam Dickens)
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 13:29:04 +0100
Subject: The use of XIHUIT
Message-ID: <MON.7.AUG.2000.132904.0100.>

As a student of nahuat, here in El Salvador, I am experiencing problems
with the use of the word XIHUIT.
Dictionaries translate this word as "year" or "green stone" etc. however
local nahuat speakers appear to use this word in general manner to indicate
the passing of time. e.g

Xihuit chupi pal tiyauj titaketsa muuanka. (time is short for us to speak
together)

Am I confusing this with "chi-uit" as the participle "chi" (to make) is
also used here to imply the passing of time; as in:

chiyakiya yek

I know that there are differences between nahuat and nahuat-l, in
particular in the use of grammer. However I do find that nahuat-l
frequently provides good indicators in the translation of nahuat. Therefore
any ideas are more than welcome.

Tasukamati uan tiyaua yamanik!

Howard Dickens


From campbel at indiana.edu  Tue Aug 29 06:52:09 2000
From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 01:52:09 -0500
Subject: The use of XIHUIT
In-Reply-To: <20000829024024665.AAA380@estelecom01.saltel.com@laptop>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.AUG.2000.015209.0500.>

Howard,
   I think that people who are studying 'tl' variants of Nahuatl and those
who are doing 't' variants have a lot to gain from exchanging information
with each other.  Of course, in addition to the 'tl' vs. 't' difference,
there will be some vocabulary differences too...
   The issue of "xihuitl" is fairly straightforward:  the stem probably
basically refers to 'leaf' and 'greenery' and is then extended to other
meanings involving time and seasons.  'Leaves' mark the years, just as
'moons' mark the months and 'snows' also mark the years.
   I was interested in your example of "chi" (to make) involving the
passage of time -- it might be interesting to see if it involves the stem
"chi(y)a" 'to wait' (unrelated to "chihua" 'do, make').  What are some
examples of your "chi"?  What does "chiyakiya yek" mean?  How do you say
'I will wait for you' or 'Wait for me'?

Saludos,

Joe


From dakin at servidor.unam.mx  Tue Aug 29 14:05:47 2000
From: dakin at servidor.unam.mx (Karen Dakin)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 09:05:47 -0500
Subject: The heart of it
In-Reply-To: <cc.95d06b5.26db871b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.AUG.2000.090547.0500.>

on 8/28/00 4:12 AM, Rmedinagarcia at aol.com at Rmedinagarcia at aol.com wrote:

> In Nahuatl theres seems to be a predilection for compound words.  Seeing this
> I wonder if there is a known relationship between yollotl (heart) and the
> suffix -yotl.  Once -yotl is added Thelma D. Sullivan states "the noun
> expresses a quality or attribute that is independen in meaning from that of
> the noun .  .  ." (Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar p. 18).  The Aztecs like
> many people believed the heart to represent the essence of the person.  For
> example toltecatl (the people) tolteca+yotl (the culture, the essence of the
> people).  Another example is nantli (mother) and nan+yotl (motherhood, the
> heart of being a mother or the essence of being a mother).  Do yollotl and
> -yotl have a similar meaning?
>
> Ricardo
>
Although by just looking at Nahuatl this would seem possible, if you look at
comparative Uto-Aztecan data, it seems doubtful that there is a relationship
between yo:llo:tl 'heart' and the -yo:-tl suffix.  The first seems to be
cognate with Uto-Aztecan *pe (e should be a barred i but I can't send it by
e-mail), and there is a lot of evidence that the -yo:-tl is a variant of the
-lo:-tl suffix conditioned by preceding old vowels (that have been lost in
Nahuatl). The -yo:-tl and its variants are, I believe, cognate with the
Tarahumara and Guarijio possessive -ra, as well as with Cora and Huichol
-ra'awe and Tepiman -da. There are a number of words from UA languages
besides both *pe / yo:llo:tl and the possessive -ra/-yo:- suffix that show
the same two sets of correspondences, so it is systematic to my eyes at
least.


From xikano_1 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 29 14:10:28 2000
From: xikano_1 at hotmail.com (XiKano *)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 07:10:28 PDT
Subject: Bierhorst
Message-ID: <TUE.29.AUG.2000.071028.PDT.>

>Listeros:
>
>Also see James Lockhart's "Care, Ingenuity, and Irresponsibility: The
>Bierhorst Edition of the Cantares Mexicanos" in NAHUAS AND SPANIARDS:
>Postconquest Central Mexican History and Philology (UCLA Latin American
>Center Publications, 1991).

Bierhorst edition? Curious. Are there other editions?

Regards,
Marcos Romero-Ochoa

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From Huaxyacac at aol.com  Tue Aug 29 14:26:29 2000
From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:26:29 EDT
Subject: Bierhorst
Message-ID: <TUE.29.AUG.2000.102629.EDT.>

Since the question about other editions was asked, what about Brinton? His
Ancient Nahuatl Poetry is obviously a bit old (1890), but does include facing
page Nahuatl originals and translations. Are his translations, or his
transcriptions, even worth looking at?

Just curious.
Alec Christensen
Rutgers-Camden


From rude at leland.stanford.edu  Wed Aug 30 17:37:42 2000
From: rude at leland.stanford.edu (Rudiger V. Busto)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 10:37:42 -0700
Subject: Bierhorst Bashing
In-Reply-To: <a04310102b66ec7be4053@[38.27.175.245]>
Message-ID: <WED.30.AUG.2000.103742.0700.>

Friends,
 Recently I was comparing the translations of the Cantares quoted by
Leon-Portilla in his "Testimonios Nahuas..." with Bierhorst's and was
surprised by the differences:

folio 42v: lines 6-7 [Bierhorst, p. 272]:

Yc ompahualli ye anchicueytica necahualo tlatemachilo ye o~ tlaocoyalotoc
nentlamachotoc ye ixquichan motlachihualhua~ ye cemanahuaco ohuiya

Bierhorst [p. 273]:

For forty-eight days there's fasting, there's rationing.  All your
creatures throughout the world are sad and afflicted.

Leon-Portilla [p. 19; english trans. of Spanish by Julie Goodson-Lawes]:

Ya durante dos cuentas de dias, por ocho veces, se ha hecho el ayuno, se ha
cumplido la penitencia.  Han estado apesadumbrados, han estado afligidos,
cuantos son hechura Tuya, aqui en la tierra, rodeada por todas partes de
agua.

[For two counts of days, for eight times there has been fasting, the
penance has been completed.  They have been afflicted, they have been
distressed, all your creations, here on the earth, surrounded on all sides
by water]

I don't have any particular expertise on the Ghost Dance interpretation
(but have my intuitions), but was most surprised by the brevity and
incompleteness of Bierhorst's English translation, particularly when he
writes (128):  The Translation is an undoctored English rendering of the
Cantares mexicanos, ruthlessly preserving the sequence of matter, including
erroneous scholia, headings, and asides inserted by the Cantares glossator.
It is intended as a neutral instrument, which the reader may use in
formulating his own interpretations."

For those without any facility in Nahuatl, the line-by-line translations
seem less than "ruthlessly preserved" for the English-only reader.  I don't
have any particular ax to grind with Bierhorst, but am somewhat concerned
about the technical apparatus.




*************************************************
Rudy V. Busto		rude at leland.stanford.edu
Assistant Professor		 415.552.0257
Religious Studies
Stanford University
(ON LEAVE 1999-2000)


From apaneco at saltel.net  Thu Aug 10 14:04:39 2000
From: apaneco at saltel.net (Howard Quilliam Dickens)
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:04:39 +0100
Subject: The use of XIHUIT
Message-ID: <THU.10.AUG.2000.150439.0100.>

----------
> From: r. joe campbell <campbel at indiana.edu>
> To: Nahuat-l List members <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
> Subject: Re: The use of XIHUIT
> Date: 29 August 2000 07:52
>
> Howard,
>    I think that people who are studying 'tl' variants of Nahuatl and
those
> who are doing 't' variants have a lot to gain from exchanging information
> with each other.  Of course, in addition to the 'tl' vs. 't' difference,
> there will be some vocabulary differences too...
>    The issue of "xihuitl" is fairly straightforward:  the stem probably
> basically refers to 'leaf' and 'greenery' and is then extended to other
> meanings involving time and seasons.  'Leaves' mark the years, just as
> 'moons' mark the months and 'snows' also mark the years.
>    I was interested in your example of "chi" (to make) involving the
> passage of time -- it might be interesting to see if it involves the stem
> "chi(y)a" 'to wait' (unrelated to "chihua" 'do, make').  What are some
> examples of your "chi"?  What does "chiyakiya yek" mean?  How do you say
> 'I will wait for you' or 'Wait for me'?
>
> Saludos,
>
> Joe

Joe
Thanks for your comments.
Here in El Salvador we do differentiate between "chi" to make and
"cheya"(CHI(Y)A) to wait.
In answer to your question;
I will wait for you = ni-yauj ni-mits-cheya kiuni
Wait for me = ti-yauj ti-nech-cheya kiuni.

Regarding "chi" and "chiua" (CHIHUA);  the latter is used here but  only in
infinite and future constructs In all other cases the UA suffix is dropped,
although there is a rare use of a preterit "Chiuak"
e.g.
past participle: chijtuk
ye uipta naja ni-chijtuk se nuhuitsut  (The day before yesterday I was
making a hoe)

passive: chi-at
niyauj ni-uika ne kuauit pal nik-chiat se nuhuitsut ( I go to carry the
wood for to make a hoe)

present participle: chiyakiya or chijkiya
tay ti-chiyakiya nemi yek  saman (what you are making is coming good?)

"chi" or " chij" also seems to appear in such words as chijcultic (chij (to
make) + cultic (something twisted)
These are examples of everyday speech in and around the town of Tacuba here
in El Salvador. These expressions may be contractions; I do not know as I
have no other accurate reference other than the spoken word.
 In relation to the use of "chi" or "chij" in terms of the passage of time.
Time appears to be related to physical events rather than an abstract
notion i.e the only indication of the passage of time is the phenomena of a
physical event. (not bad physics when you think about it).
e.g. yeka-chiua naui tunal pal tikualat ka-nikan. (must make four days to
come to be here)
       chijkiya chupi pal tiktakuat saman (lit. making little for you
thereby to eat now) (there being little time   for you to eat now).
Of the above the first relates to time being expressed as the making of
something specific i.e. four suns, while the latter is none specific;
referring only to the act of making something.
Regarding "xiuit", I have spoken to my tutors, ( the campesinos of Tacuba)
and they are adamant in maintaining their strange use of the word. Further
investigation needed!
"chiyakiya yek"  (making good or the right time is coming)
e.g. chiyakiya yek pal nikitat ne nu-ixtakasiuat (the right time is coming
for me to see
my mistress)

Sorry about the delay in replying my telephone link is rather erratic.
Tiyaua yek saman.
Howard