From dakin at servidor.unam.mx  Tue Feb  1 03:00:14 2000
From: dakin at servidor.unam.mx (DAKIN ANDERSON KAREN)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:00:14 -0700
Subject: Diafrasismos
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2000.200014.0700.>

There is a another very extensive study of Nahuatl riddles " 'Tan ancha
como tu abuela': Adivinanzas en nahuatl del Guerrero central", by
Jonathan Amith, which includes a collection of 129 riddles from the area.
It is in vol. XII of Tlalocan, (the most recent volume) published by the
Instituto de
Investigaciones Filologicas of the UNAM.


From scalderon at spin.com.mx  Wed Feb  2 18:46:57 2000
From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:46:57 -0700
Subject: mixiotes
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2000.114657.0700.>

You can see some mixiote recipes at
http://travellady.com/articles/article-warder.html
http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/recipes/puebla/kgmixioteng.html
http://www.omni.net.mx/pesca/recetas/recetas1.html

gusano de maguey mixiotes are discussed at:

http://www.hollowtop.com/finl_html/magazines.htm

some other reipes at:

http://dulcinea.uc3m.es/users/cuesta/Recetas/Mexico/
(with recipes from my mother)

and

Cocina Mexicana: http://mexico.udg.mx/cocina/

Salvador Calderon


----- Original Message -----
From: Frances Karttunen <karttu at nantucket.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: mixiotes


>
> >anyone please send recipes!
> >
> > Yolohtzin
>
> There are some excellent recipes to be found on the kokone.com.mx site.
My
> Swedish students and I got amaranth seeds from the health food store last
> spring and made allegria following kokone instructions.  It was a great
> success.
>
> Mixiotes are food steamed in the leaves of the maguey plant (metl in
> Nahuatl).
>
> Fran
>


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Wed Feb  2 20:51:08 2000
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:51:08 -0700
Subject: mixiotes
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2000.135108.0700.>

In Tlaxcala we also have it commonly understood that mixiote is the wrap
used for barbeque rather than the food itself, and even the distinction
between mixiote from maguey and that of paper has largely disappeared in
common commercial use; so if you are here and want barbeque in mixiote,
you better ask before hand if it is real mixiote from maguey or from
paper.  Speaking of derivations, I am writing a doctoral thesis on
18th-century Tlaxcala based in Nahuatl sources working from a local
collection of some 2000 folios as well as another 100+ I've located in the
state archives.  I invite anyone competent in translating Nahuatl to
collaborate with me on particular documents or document genres.


Sincerely,

Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
grief. Eccl 1:18

To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From apaneco at saltel.net  Thu Feb  3 03:20:54 2000
From: apaneco at saltel.net (Howard Quilliam Dickens)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:20:54 -0700
Subject: Nahuat/Nahuat-l
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2000.202054.0700.>

I am currently studying the language Nahuat as spoken by the Pipiles here
in El Salvador. Most  words, in Nahuat are to be found in Nahuat-l although
the meaning applied to these words and the grammatical structure appears to
differ greatly.

I am interested in any information regarding the history of nahuat and it's
linguistic relationship with nahuat-l.

I am also interested to know if there are any nahuat speaking communities
in Mexico.
( The Pipiles originally came from Mexico; although that was over 2000
years ago)

I would be grateful for any information
Tasukamati Tajtsin

HQD
Ahuachapan: El Salvador


From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Thu Feb  3 03:24:12 2000
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:24:12 -0700
Subject: mixiotes
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2000.202412.0700.>

Hi Mark,
	I would really be interested in working with you on the translation of
Tlaxcalan documents.  My name is John Sullivan.  My dissertation was a
discourse analisis of the Actas de Cabildo de Tlaxcala (siglo XVI) in 1995.
I work now as a professor in the Doctorado en Historia de la Universidad
Aut�noma de Zacatecas.
	John Sullivan

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de
Mark David Morris
Enviado el: Mi�rcoles, 02 de Febrero de 2000 02:54 p.m.
Para: Multiple recipients of list
Asunto: Re: mixiotes


In Tlaxcala we also have it commonly understood that mixiote is the wrap
used for barbeque rather than the food itself, and even the distinction
between mixiote from maguey and that of paper has largely disappeared in
common commercial use; so if you are here and want barbeque in mixiote,
you better ask before hand if it is real mixiote from maguey or from
paper.  Speaking of derivations, I am writing a doctoral thesis on
18th-century Tlaxcala based in Nahuatl sources working from a local
collection of some 2000 folios as well as another 100+ I've located in the
state archives.  I invite anyone competent in translating Nahuatl to
collaborate with me on particular documents or document genres.


Sincerely,

Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
grief. Eccl 1:18

To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From karttu at nantucket.net  Thu Feb  3 03:38:41 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:38:41 -0700
Subject: Nahuat/Nahuat-l
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2000.203841.0700.>

You are familiar with Lyle Campbell's monumental work on Pipil?

Fran

----------
>From: apaneco at saltel.net (Howard Quilliam  Dickens)
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Nahuat/Nahuat-l
>Date: Wed, Feb 2, 2000, 10:22 PM
>

> I am currently studying the language Nahuat as spoken by the Pipiles here
> in El Salvador. Most  words, in Nahuat are to be found in Nahuat-l although
> the meaning applied to these words and the grammatical structure appears to
> differ greatly.
>
> I am interested in any information regarding the history of nahuat and it's
> linguistic relationship with nahuat-l.
>
> I am also interested to know if there are any nahuat speaking communities
> in Mexico.
> ( The Pipiles originally came from Mexico; although that was over 2000
> years ago)
>
> I would be grateful for any information
> Tasukamati Tajtsin
>
> HQD
> Ahuachapan: El Salvador
>


From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Thu Feb  3 10:53:20 2000
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 03:53:20 -0700
Subject: Nahuat/Nahuat-l
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2000.035320.0700.>

Nahuat is still spoken in the border region of Puebla and Veracruz (especially
in Cuetzallan and up to the Huasteca) although it�s quite different from the
Pipil Nahuat (as far as I know - I�m not a linguist!)
                                          ciao, juergen

Howard Quilliam Dickens schrieb:

> I am currently studying the language Nahuat as spoken by the Pipiles here
> in El Salvador. Most  words, in Nahuat are to be found in Nahuat-l although
> the meaning applied to these words and the grammatical structure appears to
> differ greatly.
>
> I am interested in any information regarding the history of nahuat and it's
> linguistic relationship with nahuat-l.
>
> I am also interested to know if there are any nahuat speaking communities
> in Mexico.
> ( The Pipiles originally came from Mexico; although that was over 2000
> years ago)
>
> I would be grateful for any information
> Tasukamati Tajtsin
>
> HQD
> Ahuachapan: El Salvador

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
Austria
tel: 01/ 524 54 60
0676/ 398 66 79


From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Thu Feb  3 11:07:41 2000
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 04:07:41 -0700
Subject: Nahuat/Nahuat-l
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2000.040741.0700.>

..a question : how do the Pipil call their language? the Nahuat speaker of
Puebla (Zacapoastla, Cuetzallan) refer to their idiom as "mexicano" without
making a substantial difference to other Nahuat-l dialects
                                       saludos, juergen

Howard Quilliam Dickens schrieb:

> I am currently studying the language Nahuat as spoken by the Pipiles here
> in El Salvador. Most  words, in Nahuat are to be found in Nahuat-l although
> the meaning applied to these words and the grammatical structure appears to
> differ greatly.
>
> I am interested in any information regarding the history of nahuat and it's
> linguistic relationship with nahuat-l.
>
> I am also interested to know if there are any nahuat speaking communities
> in Mexico.
> ( The Pipiles originally came from Mexico; although that was over 2000
> years ago)
>
> I would be grateful for any information
> Tasukamati Tajtsin
>
> HQD
> Ahuachapan: El Salvador

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
Austria
tel: 01/ 524 54 60
0676/ 398 66 79


From glaucia at unicamp.br  Fri Feb  4 05:32:45 2000
From: glaucia at unicamp.br (glaucia)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:32:45 -0700
Subject: malinche
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2000.223245.0700.>

During my master work, I found the word "malinche". As I am not a nahuatl
speaker, I am having problems to get the origin, meaning and use of the
nahuatl word "malinche".
Any help would be very useful.

Thankfully:

Glaucia Cristiani Montoro
glaucia at obelix.unicamp.br
Av. Orozimbo Maia 2090 ap 42
13023 - 001 Campinas - SP
Brazil - tel: 55 19 - 252 1276


From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Fri Feb  4 10:59:34 2000
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 03:59:34 -0700
Subject: malinche
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2000.035934.0700.>

"Malinche" is the spanish version of "Malintzin" who was given to Cort�s as
"present" by a comunity in Tabasco; born in Cuatzacualco from where she was
sold as a slave in her childhood, she spoke Nahuatl and served the Spaniards
as interpreter and  counselor during the Conquista (she had also a
relationship with Cort�s and was the mother of one of his sons, Don Martin
Cort�s). Her role in the conquest has been a subject of scientific
discussions: some authors think of her as playing a key role in the fall of
Tenochtitlan (as Cort�s depended totally from his indigenous allies like the
Tlaxcalteca or the Huexotzinca and led all his negotiations with them with
the help and interpretaion of Malintzin), others guess that her influence was
overvalued in some sources; however, some indigenous texts (e.g. the Anales
de Tlatelolco) dealing with the Conquista describe Cort�s-Malintzin as a kind
of double-figure with one and the same speech. In nowadays M�xico
"malinchismo" has become a synonymon for cultural or political treason.

                                                           ciao, juergen


ps: if You need more bibliographic informations, don�t hesitate to drop me
some lines.

glaucia schrieb:

> During my master work, I found the word "malinche". As I am not a nahuatl
> speaker, I am having problems to get the origin, meaning and use of the
> nahuatl word "malinche".
> Any help would be very useful.
>
> Thankfully:
>
> Glaucia Cristiani Montoro
> glaucia at obelix.unicamp.br
> Av. Orozimbo Maia 2090 ap 42
> 13023 - 001 Campinas - SP
> Brazil - tel: 55 19 - 252 1276

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
Austria
tel: 01/ 524 54 60
0676/ 398 66 79


From karttu at nantucket.net  Fri Feb  4 12:32:32 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 05:32:32 -0700
Subject: malinche
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2000.053232.0700.>

How about reading one or both of my two essays on the woman and her several
names?  One is a chapter in my book Between Worlds:  Interpreters, Guides,
and Survivors (Rutgers U. Press, 1994 and paperback 1996).  The other is
"Rethinking Malinche" in Susan Schroeder, et al, eds. (U. of Oklahoma Press,
1997).  People will tell you her "original name" was Malinalli Tenepal, but
this is most unlikely.  That story got going in the 1800s, centuries after
her life and death.

Fran Karttunen

----------
>From: "glaucia" <glaucia at unicamp.br>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: malinche
>Date: Fri, Feb 4, 2000, 12:35 AM
>

> During my master work, I found the word "malinche". As I am not a nahuatl
> speaker, I am having problems to get the origin, meaning and use of the
> nahuatl word "malinche".
> Any help would be very useful.
>
> Thankfully:
>
> Glaucia Cristiani Montoro
> glaucia at obelix.unicamp.br
> Av. Orozimbo Maia 2090 ap 42
> 13023 - 001 Campinas - SP
> Brazil - tel: 55 19 - 252 1276
>


From mixcoatl at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  4 18:54:35 2000
From: mixcoatl at earthlink.net (Olin Tezcatlipoca)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:54:35 -0700
Subject: malinche
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2000.115435.0700.>

Frances Karttunen wrote:
>
> How about reading one or both of my two essays on the woman and her several
> names?  One is a chapter in my book Between Worlds:  Interpreters, Guides,
> and Survivors (Rutgers U. Press, 1994 and paperback 1996).  The other is
> "Rethinking Malinche" in Susan Schroeder, et al, eds. (U. of Oklahoma Press,
> 1997).  People will tell you her "original name" was Malinalli Tenepal, but
> this is most unlikely.  That story got going in the 1800s, centuries after
> her life and death.
>
> Fran Karttunen
>
> ----------
> >From: "glaucia" <glaucia at unicamp.br>
> >To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> >Subject: malinche
> >Date: Fri, Feb 4, 2000, 12:35 AM
> >
>
> > During my master work, I found the word "malinche". As I am not a nahuatl
> > speaker, I am having problems to get the origin, meaning and use of the
> > nahuatl word "malinche".
> > Any help would be very useful.
> >
> > Thankfully:
> >
> > Glaucia Cristiani Montoro
> > glaucia at obelix.unicamp.br
> > Av. Orozimbo Maia 2090 ap 42
> > 13023 - 001 Campinas - SP
> > Brazil - tel: 55 19 - 252 1276
> >



The Spaniards "Christened" her Marina.  Nahuatl has no "r".  Malina.
Give Malina an "honorific" and you get Malin-tzin, Malintzin.  Make it
more Spanish and you get Malin-che, Malinche.  As to Malinalli:  name
one Nahuatl speaking historical person with a "calendar name".  It
doesn't happen.

Which brings up a question I've had for years.  I know there were
"calendar names" which were "baby names" that were held until maybe
puberty, and definitely changed when one became a warrior.  Also
possibly names were changed even after the person had died.
Nezahualcoyotl seems more of a name to be given after one has died as a
metaphor symbolizing the person.

Any information out there as to this process.  Florentine Codex doesn't
seem to clear this up.

Olin Tezcatlipoca
http://www.mexica-movement.org


From Amapohuani at aol.com  Sat Feb  5 00:56:26 2000
From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:56:26 -0700
Subject: malinche
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2000.175626.0700.>

Listeros:

Re Malinche.

Note Carochi 1645, 8v-9r, in the section dealing with the vocative. [All
special formatting is eliminated because of ASCII limitations. The original
is available in a number of libraries and in photoreproduction from the UNAM.]

"quando el nombre tuuiere la particular tzin, nota de reuerencia, o amor, se
puede para el vocatiuo anadir la e, al tzin, [c]omo nopiltzine, hijo mio, y
es modo de hablar tierno; mas varonil, y de menos melindre es boluer la tzin,
en tze, [y] dezir nopiltze, pero no muestra tanto amor, y este tze, en [e]l
Vocatiuo se vsa de ordinario posponerle a los nombre proprios castellanos,
como Iuantze, Iuan; Malintze, Maria: Pedrotze, Pedro."

When borrowing items from Nahuatl, Spanish speakers had a tendency to change
tze to che, hence Malinche.

Ye ixquich.
Barry D. Sell


From glaucia at unicamp.br  Sat Feb  5 02:11:38 2000
From: glaucia at unicamp.br (glaucia)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 19:11:38 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2000.191138.0700.>

I know that Malinche had a important role in the conquest, but reading
Bernal D�az del Castillo in many parts the word malinche was used, by the
indians, applied to the person of Cort�s.
These made me thinking in others meanings and uses for the word malinche.
My friend study this woman in the conquest of M�xico and had some theories,
focusing in the relations between the Indians and Cort�s or Cort�s and
Bernal D�az, related to the use of the nahuatl word Malinche by Bernal
D�az.
So I think if in the nahuatl language this word might have some meaning
then the name of Cort�s' s translator.
Actually, I don't study this specific subject, right now I am studying the
image of some Codex.


Glaucia Cristiani Montoro
glaucia at obelix.unicamp.br
Av. Orozimbo Maia 2090 ap 42
13023 - 001 Campinas - SP
Brazil - tel: 55 19 - 252 1276


From Earthlinked2 at aol.com  Sat Feb  5 03:05:25 2000
From: Earthlinked2 at aol.com (Earthlinked2 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:05:25 -0700
Subject: New to the list
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2000.200525.0700.>

Hi my name is Laura I am currently trying to recover my roots, Mexican-Aztec
heritage I don't speak any Nahuatl yet, but I would like to learn, hence the
list.  Any good resourses for getting started?  I am starting to study the
Aztec dance now and I would like to learn the meanings to the songs.  I don't
order anything on-line so I guess I'm somewhat limited.  Thanks and Hello to
everyone.

Laura
earthlinked at yahoo.com


From micc at home.com  Sat Feb  5 03:18:30 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:18:30 -0700
Subject: New to the list
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2000.201830.0700.>

check out:


www.aguila-blanca.com






Earthlinked2 at aol.com wrote:
>
> Hi my name is Laura I am currently trying to recover my roots, Mexican-Aztec
> heritage I don't speak any Nahuatl yet, but I would like to learn, hence the
> list.  Any good resourses for getting started?  I am starting to study the
> Aztec dance now and I would like to learn the meanings to the songs.  I don't
> order anything on-line so I guess I'm somewhat limited.  Thanks and Hello to
> everyone.
>
> Laura
> earthlinked at yahoo.com


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Sat Feb  5 07:57:32 2000
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 00:57:32 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.005732.0700.>

Please rid yourself of the term "indian" from your vocabulary when referring
to the indigenous people of these lands.  It is an inaccurate label.


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sat Feb  5 12:03:36 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 05:03:36 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.050336.0700.>

You will have to convince most of the indigeneous people of North America.
Good luck.

On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:

> Please rid yourself of the term "indian" from your vocabulary when referring
> to the indigenous people of these lands.  It is an inaccurate label.
>


Michael McCafferty
C.E.L.T.
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

*******************************************************************************
"Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
from the me that others don't know
to the other me that I don't know.

-Juan Ramon Jimenez

*******************************************************************************


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sat Feb  5 15:28:26 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 08:28:26 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.082826.0700.>

>
> On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
>
> > Please rid yourself of the term "indian" from your vocabulary when referring
> > to the indigenous people of these lands.  It is an inaccurate label.
> >
>
All the Indians I know, including my Cherokee relatives, refer to
themselves as Indians. No one is particularly enamoured of the term
"Native American." It sounds contrived, like something
concocted in a scientist's laboratory. "Native American" is, of course,
used in official correspondence with the government and that sort of
thing.

When you think about it, Germans are not really Germans. That term just
refers to a Germanic-speaking tribe. And how about the French? There they
are bearing the name of *German* tribe. Wonder if the French thought
about that during WW I and WW II.

Fortunately, as a soothing balm for the inordinately politically correct,
English at least no longers uses "savages" to denote American Indians.
This unfortunate term, of course, was simply a skewed borrowing from the
French /sauvages/, 'wild ones'. However, it is dismaying how often
"savages" continued to be seen in the work of historians even into the
second half of the 20th century.

Michael McCafferty
Indiana University


From karttu at nantucket.net  Sat Feb  5 15:41:36 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 08:41:36 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.084136.0700.>

Once again, I would like to direct interested listeros to my essay
"Rethinking Malinche" in Indian Women of Early Mexico, edited by Sue
Schroeder, et al.  I take up the multiple identification of dona Marina,
Cortes, and also another Spaniard who learned Nahuatl early with what the
Spaniards pronounced "malinche."  I suggest that in a world that until the
moment of contact had known no malintzins or any word like that, the people
who came into contact with the Spaniards and their interpreting chains
(Aguilar-dona Maina-Cortes and variations on that theme), may have believed
the humans involved to be agents of a previously unknown supernatural force
that was called Malintzin/Malinche.

Fran Karttunen

----------
>From: "glaucia" <glaucia at unicamp.br>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: malinche II
>Date: Fri, Feb 4, 2000, 9:13 PM
>

> I know that Malinche had a important role in the conquest, but reading
> Bernal D=EDaz del Castillo in many parts the word malinche was used, by the
> indians, applied to the person of Cort=E9s.
> These made me thinking in others meanings and uses for the word malinche.
> My friend study this woman in the conquest of M=E9xico and had some theorie=
s,
> focusing in the relations between the Indians and Cort=E9s or Cort=E9s and
> Bernal D=EDaz, related to the use of the nahuatl word Malinche by Bernal
> D=EDaz.
> So I think if in the nahuatl language this word might have some meaning
> then the name of Cort=E9s' s translator.
> Actually, I don't study this specific subject, right now I am studying th=
e
> image of some Codex.
>
>
> Glaucia Cristiani Montoro
> glaucia at obelix.unicamp.br
> Av. Orozimbo Maia 2090 ap 42
> 13023 - 001 Campinas - SP
> Brazil - tel: 55 19 - 252 1276
>


From heatherhess at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  5 17:16:26 2000
From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 10:16:26 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.101626.0700.>

I am a Canadian and have a very small amount of Ojibway blood!  I have
discovered after spending much time with natives - as they are referred to
in Ontario  - and - Aboriginals as they are referred to in Ontario - that it
is okay for Natives and Aboriginals to refer to themselves as Indians but it
is not proper to reference them as Indians.

Yolohtzin


>From: Michael Mccafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: malinche II
>Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 05:04:01 -0700
>
>You will have to convince most of the indigeneous people of North America.
>Good luck.
>
>On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
>
> > Please rid yourself of the term "indian" from your vocabulary when
>referring
> > to the indigenous people of these lands.  It is an inaccurate label.
> >
>
>
>Michael McCafferty
>C.E.L.T.
>307 Memorial Hall
>Indiana University
>Bloomington, Indiana
>47405
>mmccaffe at indiana.edu
>
>*******************************************************************************
>"Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
>from the me that others don't know
>to the other me that I don't know.
>
>-Juan Ramon Jimenez
>
>*******************************************************************************
>
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From karttu at nantucket.net  Sat Feb  5 19:21:38 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 12:21:38 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.122138.0700.>

About the use of the word "Indian"


This is a problem some of my colleagues and I have struggled with most
recently in the title and text of a volume of which I am co-editor.  The
volume title is "Issues of Minority Peoples," and one of the contributions
is an essay about names people have for other people.  Another contribution
to the volume uses "Indian" and yet another that was submitted used "native"
and "white man."  We editors an the contributors had debates and
disagreements.

In my own work, if I am talking about one particular people or several such
groups, I use their own current chosen ethnic names.  That means preferring
Tohono O'odom to Papago, Dakota/Lakota to Sioux, Wampanoag to Pokanet,
Mexicano to Nahua, Purepecha to Tarascan, etc. unless there is a good reason
to use the other name.  When the topic is very large, then one has to choose
among "first peoples," "first nations," "Native Americans," "Alaska
Natives," "indigenous peoples of the Americas," or (yes) "Indian people."
There really are a lot of people today who think of themselves as, refer to
themselves as, and want to be called "Indian people."  It depends on where
you are and who you are talking about.

When one is talking about the past, there are additional considerations.  If
one's sources constantly talk about "Indians," then one is not doing one's
readers a favor to pretend the sources don't say that, which goes for
"whites" and "blacks" as well. (My strategy is to refuse to capitalize such
labels.)  What's more, there is regional variation.  Mesoamericans, whether
Nahua, Maya, Mixtec,or Popoluca (all names that one can argue are artificial
or flawed), haven't ever, so far as my experience goes, referred to
themselves as "indios."  On the other hand, the ancestors of the Wampanoags
of the northeast Atlantic coast didn't call themselves Wampanoags in their
written documents of the 1600s and 1700s. ("Wampanoag" seems to be a word
borrowed by English and Dutch speakers from the Delaware language, and its
original meaning was "people who live to the east of us.")  Guess what the
ancestors of today's Wampanoags called themselves when writing about
themselves in their own language?  They referred to themselves as
"indiansog."  No kidding.  But if one goes back a few years to 1643, one
finds Roger Williams reporting that the Narragansetts asked him why the
English called them Indians.

As for the title of Indian Women of Early Mexico, a number of alternative
titles were considered, and the U. Of Oklahoma Press marketing department
convinced the editors that this was the title that would most effectively
inform potential readers of what the book is about.  The women in the book
are from several different Mesoamerican peoples.  Naturally there was also
much prepublication debate about what "Early Mexico" really means.

Fran Karttunen

----------
>From: Michael Mccafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: malinche II
>Date: Sat, Feb 5, 2000, 7:05 AM
>

> You will have to convince most of the indigeneous people of North America.
> Good luck.
>
> On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
>
>> Please rid yourself of the term "indian" from your vocabulary when referring
>> to the indigenous people of these lands.  It is an inaccurate label.
>>
>
>
> Michael McCafferty
> C.E.L.T.
> 307 Memorial Hall
> Indiana University
> Bloomington, Indiana
> 47405
> mmccaffe at indiana.edu
>
>
****************************************************************************
***
> "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
> from the me that others don't know
> to the other me that I don't know.
>
> -Juan Ramon Jimenez
>
>
****************************************************************************
***
>
>


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Sat Feb  5 20:16:11 2000
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 13:16:11 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.131611.0700.>

if u want to get technical, the term "savage" stems from the latin word
"silva".


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Sat Feb  5 20:29:21 2000
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 13:29:21 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.132921.0700.>

that's because most "Indians" have become complacent with this term.  I
prefer indigenous people.  Had Colombus thought he landed in Africa would we
have carried on this 500 year old bad habit of refering to the indigenous
people of these lands as, "Africans?"  Get used to calling us indigenous.  I
am not and Indian!  I am not from India.   And I am aware of the mislabelings
of all peoples and that is unfortunate.  But if you traversed Mexico then the
term, "indio" is regarded as an insulting remark.  Good luck to you Micheal
if you dont insult the indigenous people of Mexico by using this so-called
acceptable term there.  Chances are you would be regarded as ignorant or
insulting.


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sat Feb  5 21:12:39 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:12:39 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.141239.0700.>

Thank you, Dr. Kartunnen, for your, as usual, informative note. We are
certainly fortunate to have you as a contributor to this listserv.

Michael McCafferty

On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Frances Karttunen wrote:

> About the use of the word "Indian"
>
>
> This is a problem some of my colleagues and I have struggled with most
> recently in the title and text of a volume of which I am co-editor.  The
> volume title is "Issues of Minority Peoples," and one of the contributions
> is an essay about names people have for other people.  Another contribution
> to the volume uses "Indian" and yet another that was submitted used "native"
> and "white man."  We editors an the contributors had debates and
> disagreements.
>
> In my own work, if I am talking about one particular people or several such
> groups, I use their own current chosen ethnic names.  That means preferring
> Tohono O'odom to Papago, Dakota/Lakota to Sioux, Wampanoag to Pokanet,
> Mexicano to Nahua, Purepecha to Tarascan, etc. unless there is a good reason
> to use the other name.  When the topic is very large, then one has to choose
> among "first peoples," "first nations," "Native Americans," "Alaska
> Natives," "indigenous peoples of the Americas," or (yes) "Indian people."
> There really are a lot of people today who think of themselves as, refer to
> themselves as, and want to be called "Indian people."  It depends on where
> you are and who you are talking about.
>
> When one is talking about the past, there are additional considerations.  If
> one's sources constantly talk about "Indians," then one is not doing one's
> readers a favor to pretend the sources don't say that, which goes for
> "whites" and "blacks" as well. (My strategy is to refuse to capitalize such
> labels.)  What's more, there is regional variation.  Mesoamericans, whether
> Nahua, Maya, Mixtec,or Popoluca (all names that one can argue are artificial
> or flawed), haven't ever, so far as my experience goes, referred to
> themselves as "indios."  On the other hand, the ancestors of the Wampanoags
> of the northeast Atlantic coast didn't call themselves Wampanoags in their
> written documents of the 1600s and 1700s. ("Wampanoag" seems to be a word
> borrowed by English and Dutch speakers from the Delaware language, and its
> original meaning was "people who live to the east of us.")  Guess what the
> ancestors of today's Wampanoags called themselves when writing about
> themselves in their own language?  They referred to themselves as
> "indiansog."  No kidding.  But if one goes back a few years to 1643, one
> finds Roger Williams reporting that the Narragansetts asked him why the
> English called them Indians.
>
> As for the title of Indian Women of Early Mexico, a number of alternative
> titles were considered, and the U. Of Oklahoma Press marketing department
> convinced the editors that this was the title that would most effectively
> inform potential readers of what the book is about.  The women in the book
> are from several different Mesoamerican peoples.  Naturally there was also
> much prepublication debate about what "Early Mexico" really means.
>
> Fran Karttunen


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From: sales at ptnsa.com (sales at ptnsa.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:47:07 -0700
Subject: Raw Material: Maca & Cat's Claw
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.164707.0700.>

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From micc at home.com  Sun Feb  6 00:31:29 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:31:29 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS,
 AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE INTROVERTS
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.173129.0700.>

My most revered child,

You seem to be one of the many young and insecure Chicanos who, having
suddenly realized their "indigenismo" suddenly turn sacred, holy, and
arrogant.

there are MILLIONS of indigenous people, from the tip of Alaska, to the
tip of Tierra del fuego, that have learned to deal with that word
indio.  Zapata called himself "un indio", and he was truly a greater
yaochquichtli than a mocoso intellectual fanatic that lives his/her life
in the shadows of the internet discussion groups.

someday, when you have grown up, travel throughout this beautiful land,
talk to the elders, and learn to do away with, even KILL your anger and
hatred.  It does no one any good.... especially you.

You write to me in English, ARE YOU ENGLISH???? did your mother and
grandmother pray to coatlicue and chicomecoatl?  did your grandfather
offer blood sacrifice from his penis, overtime he harvested the
mosquito larvae from your local hueyapan?  Do you currently wear a
tilma' to work?

i bet you wear baggy jeans, a bandana or two, use athletic shoes, or
work boots, and perhaps even have a TV and CD player in your house...

YOU NOR I CANNOT CHANGE THE PATH OF HISTORY.  MASSACRES, WARS, PLAGUES,
AND CONQUEST ARE THE LOT OF ALL HUMANITY.  AS LONG AS THERE ARE PEOPLE
DOMINATED BY HATE AND ANGER, THIS WILL ALWAYS BE. As soon as the young
treasures of our nation, people such as yourself, can find it in their
heart to teach kindness, justice, truth and peace,      then and only
then
can the nightmare of human greed, violence, and murder end.  greed has
never been caused by true love.  Only by arrogance and
self-centeredness, whether it is individual, or national.

You my son, most precious feather, must not fall into this darkness.
Only Ometoetl can ever know why history has developed as it has.  Are
you arrogant enough (like the "White man you so hate) to think that your
mind is the way the Earth, its history, and its people, should be?

"your experience" in self-determination, is an illusion.  as long as you
are part of any society (nation of Aztlan, republican party, Ricky
martin fan club, or molotov fan club) you will always rely on that
society's "determination" as to what is appropriate and acceptable.
True determination, self, group, or otherwise comes from understanding
the great message of Ometoetl.  your political centered world view
ignores the greater law of justice. In the final analysis, what happens
on this planet, and what happens to our people is OF ABSOLUTELY NO
CONSEQUENCE TO THE UNIVERSE.....  I hope you do not believe that if we
do not pray and sacrifice to the gods, the world will end.....for that
self centered egotism is the most abominable of sins in the eyes of the
lord and lady of creation.  that is why the Mexi'ca were abandoned so
many centuries ago....abandoned by their gods, their friends and their
enemies.  because they believed that the world needed them to exist.
the tragic truth was that THEY needed everybody else (that they
oppressed, like the EURO-AFRICAN CENTERED ACADEMIA does today) to exist.


In chipahuac ihuan chicahuac.  4 words speak what all the "isms" of your
world view cannot say.  508 years of hatred, violence, war, and genocide
cannot ever be erased.  But do you want our people to spend the next 508
years seething with anger and hate????


Remember, this is the third millennium of the european calendar, and IT
IS THE FINAL COUNTDOWN OF THE KATUN.  YOU HAVE ONLY 11 YEARS LEFT TO
BURY YOUR ANGER, AND FOLLOW THE PATH OF LIGHT.  ONCE THIS KATUN ENDS, IF
WE DO NOT HAVE OUR CUITLATL TOGETHER "INDIGENOUS" TO ALL CONTINENTS,
THEN WE WILL BE FORCED TO REPEAT THE PAST KATUN.

remember most precious nephew,  most sacred wind, WHAT YOU DO TODAY, IS
GOING TO HELP YOU OR HURT YOU FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE......

take a risk....join the world....life is a blessing.....


InLak'ech nopiltzin


 Thank you for
> your time in reading my email.

Mario E. Aguilar
Quetzalcoatl Cuauhtlecoc





Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
>
> You really should change the word "indio" to indigena.  It is insulting to
> the indigenous people of Anahuac.  Those that are ignorant call the
> indigenous people of Anahuac, "indio".  Please do not get the wrong
> impression from me; I am not calling you ignorant.  It is from my own
> experience through self-determination that I have learned that the term,
> "indio" is a pejorative term among indigenos.  I suggest you change the name.
>  Everybody knows that this term is a 500+year-old bad habit generated by that
> idiot, Cristobal Colon when he thought he landed in the east Indies.  Hence,
> the term Indian accurately belongs to the people of India.  Thank you for
> your time in reading my email.

Michael Mccafferty wrote:
>
> >
> > On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > Please rid yourself of the term "indian" from your vocabulary when referring
> > > to the indigenous people of these lands.  It is an inaccurate label.
> > >
> >
> All the Indians I know, including my Cherokee relatives, refer to
> themselves as Indians. No one is particularly enamoured of the term
> "Native American." It sounds contrived, like something
> concocted in a scientist's laboratory. "Native American" is, of course,
> used in official correspondence with the government and that sort of
> thing.
>
> When you think about it, Germans are not really Germans. That term just
> refers to a Germanic-speaking tribe. And how about the French? There they
> are bearing the name of *German* tribe. Wonder if the French thought
> about that during WW I and WW II.
>
> Fortunately, as a soothing balm for the inordinately politically correct,
> English at least no longers uses "savages" to denote American Indians.
> This unfortunate term, of course, was simply a skewed borrowing from the
> French /sauvages/, 'wild ones'. However, it is dismaying how often
> "savages" continued to be seen in the work of historians even into the
> second half of the 20th century.
>
> Michael McCafferty
> Indiana University


From micc at home.com  Sun Feb  6 00:44:36 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:44:36 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS,
 AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE INTROVERTS
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.174436.0700.>

One more thing.... I know that it is "cool" for us "indigenously
advanced" chicanos  to call the Americas "Anahuac", a Nahuatl word.  But
it is extremely arrogant to place a Nahautl name on a land of hundreds
of INDIGENOUS NATIONS ( did I say that right yaoquichtli) that never
spoke nahuatl.  Why not a lakota name, or a Yanomamo, or Quechua, or
cupa, or chumash, or kwakiutl, or purepecha, or Comanche name????? Why
not a universal Esperanto-bahai-lingua
franca-televisa-CNN-coca-cola-toyota name like:

Fufu
Gagalandia
tripalopa
dollaria
telefeliz

better yet, lets call this land 011-252-555-1212

Amoxtla........

micc at home.com wrote:
>
> My most revered child,
>
> You seem to be one of the many young and insecure Chicanos who, having
> suddenly realized their "indigenismo" suddenly turn sacred, holy, and
> arrogant.
>
> there are MILLIONS of indigenous people, from the tip of Alaska, to the
> tip of Tierra del fuego, that have learned to deal with that word
> indio.  Zapata called himself "un indio", and he was truly a greater
> yaochquichtli than a mocoso intellectual fanatic that lives his/her life
> in the shadows of the internet discussion groups...........


From cberry at cinenet.net  Sun Feb  6 02:59:20 2000
From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 19:59:20 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.195920.0700.>

On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Michael Mccafferty wrote:

> You will have to convince most of the indigeneous people of North America.
> Good luck.

And note that almost no cultural group ends up named by others using the
word they would prefer.  The Picts of Britain were naimed by the Roman
occupying forces for their habit of decorating their bodies with paint.
The Celts were named after one small southeastern branch of a wide and
disparate group of cultures stretching across Europe.  Even modern Germans
(Deutsch to themselves) are known in each region of Europe based on which
pre-national tribal group happened to be nearest.  To further confuse
matters, there was no Amerindian term for Amerindian, as (a) they didn't
know about non-Amerindian humans, and (b) they didn't see themselves as a
monolithic culture (as they decidedly were not).  So, what are we to call
them?  Even "Native American" or "Amerindian" incorporates our old
European friend Amerigo Vespucci, after all.

--
   |   Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net
 --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |   "The road of Excess leads to the Palace
      of Wisdom" - William Blake


From lm412 at is9.nyu.edu  Sun Feb  6 03:02:17 2000
From: lm412 at is9.nyu.edu (Lucas Molina)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:02:17 -0700
Subject: trying to find the word for...
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.200217.0700.>

please don't think this odd but i collect knives and weapons and was
wondering what the name for the "aztec sword" is in nahuatl.  i've seen
a couple of examples at the New York Natural History Museum, but would
also like to know if anyone knows where i could find a picture on the
net somewhere.  i was thinking about trying to commission a flintknapper
to make one and am baffled about the method used to hold the blade in
place.

Lucas Molina


From GESX1CKAH at aol.com  Sun Feb  6 03:35:17 2000
From: GESX1CKAH at aol.com (GESX1CKAH at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:35:17 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.203517.0700.>

In a message dated 2/4/00 11:58:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Yaoxochitl at aol.com writes:

<< Please rid yourself of the term "indian" from your vocabulary when
referring
 to the indigenous people of these lands.  It is an inaccurate label. >>

I agree, Indian people are from India and Native Americans are from America
(not to be limited to the US)

jess


From GESX1CKAH at aol.com  Sun Feb  6 03:48:10 2000
From: GESX1CKAH at aol.com (GESX1CKAH at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:48:10 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.204810.0700.>

In a message dated 2/5/00 4:32:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, micc at home.com
writes:

<<
 My most revered child,

 You seem to be one of the many young and insecure Chicanos who, having
 suddenly realized their "indigenismo" suddenly turn sacred, holy, and
 arrogant.

 there are MILLIONS of indigenous people, from the tip of Alaska, to the
 tip of Tierra del fuego, that have learned to deal with that word
 indio.  Zapata called himself "un indio", and he was truly a greater
 yaochquichtli than a mocoso intellectual fanatic that lives his/her life
 in the shadows of the internet discussion groups.

 someday, when you have grown up, travel throughout this beautiful land,
 talk to the elders, and learn to do away with, even KILL your anger and
 hatred.  It does no one any good.... especially you.

 You write to me in English, ARE YOU ENGLISH???? did your mother and
 grandmother pray to coatlicue and chicomecoatl?  did your grandfather
 offer blood sacrifice from his penis, overtime he harvested the
 mosquito larvae from your local hueyapan?  Do you currently wear a
 tilma' to work?

 i bet you wear baggy jeans, a bandana or two, use athletic shoes, or
 work boots, and perhaps even have a TV and CD player in your house...

 YOU NOR I CANNOT CHANGE THE PATH OF HISTORY.  MASSACRES, WARS, PLAGUES,
 AND CONQUEST ARE THE LOT OF ALL HUMANITY.  AS LONG AS THERE ARE PEOPLE
 DOMINATED BY HATE AND ANGER, THIS WILL ALWAYS BE. As soon as the young
 treasures of our nation, people such as yourself, can find it in their
 heart to teach kindness, justice, truth and peace,      then and only
 then
 can the nightmare of human greed, violence, and murder end.  greed has
 never been caused by true love.  Only by arrogance and
 self-centeredness, whether it is individual, or national.

 You my son, most precious feather, must not fall into this darkness.
 Only Ometoetl can ever know why history has developed as it has.  Are
 you arrogant enough (like the "White man you so hate) to think that your
 mind is the way the Earth, its history, and its people, should be?

 "your experience" in self-determination, is an illusion.  as long as you
 are part of any society (nation of Aztlan, republican party, Ricky
 martin fan club, or molotov fan club) you will always rely on that
 society's "determination" as to what is appropriate and acceptable.
 True determination, self, group, or otherwise comes from understanding
 the great message of Ometoetl.  your political centered world view
 ignores the greater law of justice. In the final analysis, what happens
 on this planet, and what happens to our people is OF ABSOLUTELY NO
 CONSEQUENCE TO THE UNIVERSE.....  I hope you do not believe that if we
 do not pray and sacrifice to the gods, the world will end.....for that
 self centered egotism is the most abominable of sins in the eyes of the
 lord and lady of creation.  that is why the Mexi'ca were abandoned so
 many centuries ago....abandoned by their gods, their friends and their
 enemies.  because they believed that the world needed them to exist.
 the tragic truth was that THEY needed everybody else (that they
 oppressed, like the EURO-AFRICAN CENTERED ACADEMIA does today) to exist.


 In chipahuac ihuan chicahuac.  4 words speak what all the "isms" of your
 world view cannot say.  508 years of hatred, violence, war, and genocide
 cannot ever be erased.  But do you want our people to spend the next 508
 years seething with anger and hate????


 Remember, this is the third millennium of the european calendar, and IT
 IS THE FINAL COUNTDOWN OF THE KATUN.  YOU HAVE ONLY 11 YEARS LEFT TO
 BURY YOUR ANGER, AND FOLLOW THE PATH OF LIGHT.  ONCE THIS KATUN ENDS, IF
 WE DO NOT HAVE OUR CUITLATL TOGETHER "INDIGENOUS" TO ALL CONTINENTS,
 THEN WE WILL BE FORCED TO REPEAT THE PAST KATUN.

 remember most precious nephew,  most sacred wind, WHAT YOU DO TODAY, IS
 GOING TO HELP YOU OR HURT YOU FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE......

 take a risk....join the world....life is a blessing.....


 InLak'ech nopiltzin


  Thank you for
 > your time in reading my email.

 Mario E. Aguilar
 Quetzalcoatl Cuauhtlecoc >>

I don't think this hostility is necessary.  I don't care how mature you think
you are, how experienced you think you are, but if anything... this was
arrogant!

jessica


From GESX1CKAH at aol.com  Sun Feb  6 03:50:57 2000
From: GESX1CKAH at aol.com (GESX1CKAH at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:50:57 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.205057.0700.>

 This is the nahuatl server isn't it?

jess

<< One more thing.... I know that it is "cool" for us "indigenously
 advanced" chicanos  to call the Americas "Anahuac", a Nahuatl word.  But
 it is extremely arrogant to place a Nahautl name on a land of hundreds
 of INDIGENOUS NATIONS ( did I say that right yaoquichtli) that never
 spoke nahuatl.  Why not a lakota name, or a Yanomamo, or Quechua, or
 cupa, or chumash, or kwakiutl, or purepecha, or Comanche name????? Why
 not a universal Esperanto-bahai-lingua
 franca-televisa-CNN-coca-cola-toyota name like:

 Fufu
 Gagalandia
 tripalopa
 dollaria
 telefeliz

 better yet, lets call this land 011-252-555-1212

 Amoxtla........ >>


From cberry at cinenet.net  Sun Feb  6 04:34:03 2000
From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 21:34:03 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.213403.0700.>

On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:

> that's because most "Indians" have become complacent with this term.  I
> prefer indigenous people.

The problem is that "indigenous people" applies to any group who have
occupied any part of torld for a long time.  What would you propose as a
term for the indigenous people of the New World?

--
   |   Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net
 --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |   "The road of Excess leads to the Palace
      of Wisdom" - William Blake


From cberry at cinenet.net  Sun Feb  6 05:07:09 2000
From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 22:07:09 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.220709.0700.>

On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, I wrote:

> occupied any part of torld for a long time.  What would you propose as a

Sorry, fingers slipped or something; that 'torld' should of course be 'the
world'.

--
   |   Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net
 --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |   "The road of Excess leads to the Palace
      of Wisdom" - William Blake


From micc at home.com  Sun Feb  6 06:51:00 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 23:51:00 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.235100.0700.>

THANK YOU FOR SHARING!!!!!

HOSTILITY IS BEST ANSWERED WITH MIRTH.........


GESX1CKAH at aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2/5/00 4:32:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, micc at home.com
> writes:
>
> <<
>  My most revered child,
>
>  You seem to be one of the many young and insecure Chicanos who, having
>  suddenly realized their "indigenismo" suddenly turn sacred, holy, and
>  arrogant.
>
>  there are MILLIONS of indigenous people, from the tip of Alaska, to the
>  tip of Tierra del fuego, that have learned to deal with that word
>  indio.  Zapata called himself "un indio", and he was truly a greater
>  yaochquichtli than a mocoso intellectual fanatic that lives his/her life
>  in the shadows of the internet discussion groups.
>
>  someday, when you have grown up, travel throughout this beautiful land,
>  talk to the elders, and learn to do away with, even KILL your anger and
>  hatred.  It does no one any good.... especially you.
>
>  You write to me in English, ARE YOU ENGLISH???? did your mother and
>  grandmother pray to coatlicue and chicomecoatl?  did your grandfather
>  offer blood sacrifice from his penis, overtime he harvested the
>  mosquito larvae from your local hueyapan?  Do you currently wear a
>  tilma' to work?
>
>  i bet you wear baggy jeans, a bandana or two, use athletic shoes, or
>  work boots, and perhaps even have a TV and CD player in your house...
>
>  YOU NOR I CANNOT CHANGE THE PATH OF HISTORY.  MASSACRES, WARS, PLAGUES,
>  AND CONQUEST ARE THE LOT OF ALL HUMANITY.  AS LONG AS THERE ARE PEOPLE
>  DOMINATED BY HATE AND ANGER, THIS WILL ALWAYS BE. As soon as the young
>  treasures of our nation, people such as yourself, can find it in their
>  heart to teach kindness, justice, truth and peace,      then and only
>  then
>  can the nightmare of human greed, violence, and murder end.  greed has
>  never been caused by true love.  Only by arrogance and
>  self-centeredness, whether it is individual, or national.
>
>  You my son, most precious feather, must not fall into this darkness.
>  Only Ometoetl can ever know why history has developed as it has.  Are
>  you arrogant enough (like the "White man you so hate) to think that your
>  mind is the way the Earth, its history, and its people, should be?
>
>  "your experience" in self-determination, is an illusion.  as long as you
>  are part of any society (nation of Aztlan, republican party, Ricky
>  martin fan club, or molotov fan club) you will always rely on that
>  society's "determination" as to what is appropriate and acceptable.
>  True determination, self, group, or otherwise comes from understanding
>  the great message of Ometoetl.  your political centered world view
>  ignores the greater law of justice. In the final analysis, what happens
>  on this planet, and what happens to our people is OF ABSOLUTELY NO
>  CONSEQUENCE TO THE UNIVERSE.....  I hope you do not believe that if we
>  do not pray and sacrifice to the gods, the world will end.....for that
>  self centered egotism is the most abominable of sins in the eyes of the
>  lord and lady of creation.  that is why the Mexi'ca were abandoned so
>  many centuries ago....abandoned by their gods, their friends and their
>  enemies.  because they believed that the world needed them to exist.
>  the tragic truth was that THEY needed everybody else (that they
>  oppressed, like the EURO-AFRICAN CENTERED ACADEMIA does today) to exist.
>
>
>  In chipahuac ihuan chicahuac.  4 words speak what all the "isms" of your
>  world view cannot say.  508 years of hatred, violence, war, and genocide
>  cannot ever be erased.  But do you want our people to spend the next 508
>  years seething with anger and hate????
>
>
>  Remember, this is the third millennium of the european calendar, and IT
>  IS THE FINAL COUNTDOWN OF THE KATUN.  YOU HAVE ONLY 11 YEARS LEFT TO
>  BURY YOUR ANGER, AND FOLLOW THE PATH OF LIGHT.  ONCE THIS KATUN ENDS, IF
>  WE DO NOT HAVE OUR CUITLATL TOGETHER "INDIGENOUS" TO ALL CONTINENTS,
>  THEN WE WILL BE FORCED TO REPEAT THE PAST KATUN.
>
>  remember most precious nephew,  most sacred wind, WHAT YOU DO TODAY, IS
>  GOING TO HELP YOU OR HURT YOU FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE......
>
>  take a risk....join the world....life is a blessing.....
>
>
>  InLak'ech nopiltzin
>
>
>   Thank you for
>  > your time in reading my email.
>
>  Mario E. Aguilar
>  Quetzalcoatl Cuauhtlecoc >>
>
> I don't think this hostility is necessary.  I don't care how mature you think
> you are, how experienced you think you are, but if anything... this was
> arrogant!
>
> jessica


From micc at home.com  Sun Feb  6 06:54:03 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 23:54:03 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.235403.0700.>

YES IT IS THE NAHUATL SERVER.....it is not (at lesat as I can recall)
the cultural purity server......:)

GESX1CKAH at aol.com wrote:
>
>  This is the nahuatl server isn't it?
>
> jess
>
> << One more thing.... I know that it is "cool" for us "indigenously
>  advanced" chicanos  to call the Americas "Anahuac", a Nahuatl word.  But
>  it is extremely arrogant to place a Nahautl name on a land of hundreds
>  of INDIGENOUS NATIONS ( did I say that right yaoquichtli) that never
>  spoke nahuatl.  Why not a lakota name, or a Yanomamo, or Quechua, or
>  cupa, or chumash, or kwakiutl, or purepecha, or Comanche name????? Why
>  not a universal Esperanto-bahai-lingua
>  franca-televisa-CNN-coca-cola-toyota name like:
>
>  Fufu
>  Gagalandia
>  tripalopa
>  dollaria
>  telefeliz
>
>  better yet, lets call this land 011-252-555-1212
>
>  Amoxtla........ >>


From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net  Sun Feb  6 08:07:25 2000
From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 01:07:25 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2000.010725.0700.>

On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 GESX1CKAH at aol.com wrote:

| This is the nahuatl server isn't it?

Yes, but people are digressing.


From micc at home.com  Sun Feb  6 08:20:53 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 01:20:53 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2000.012053.0700.>

here, here!!!!!!!!!!

Matthew Montchalin wrote:
>
> On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 GESX1CKAH at aol.com wrote:
>
> | This is the nahuatl server isn't it?
>
> Yes, but people are digressing.


From malinal at evhr.net  Sun Feb  6 11:25:29 2000
From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 04:25:29 -0700
Subject: trying to find the word for...
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2000.042529.0700.>

-----Message d'origine-----
Lucas Molina <lm412 at is9.nyu.edu> wrote


>please don't think this odd but i collect knives and weapons and was
>wondering what the name for the "aztec sword" is in nahuatl.  i've seen
>a couple of examples at the New York Natural History Museum, but would
>also like to know if anyone knows where i could find a picture on the
>net somewhere.  i was thinking about trying to commission a flintknapper
>to make one and am baffled about the method used to hold the blade in
>place.
>
>Lucas Molina
>

Dear Lucas

the Nahuatl word for the indigenous sword is macuahuitl. A variant is
maccuahuitl. The usualy explaining of this word is to say it that it comes
from cuahuitl, tree, wood, stick and ma:-itl, hand, or ma:c, a locative
word, in the hand. Also hand-stick or stick (hold) in the hand.
But can this word not be in relation with the verb ma:cuauhti, for the arm
(or the hand) to become stiff ?

Sincerely yours

Alexis.


From hernand at dcsun1.epfl.ch  Sun Feb  6 12:59:11 2000
From: hernand at dcsun1.epfl.ch (Jose Maria Hernandez Gil)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 05:59:11 -0700
Subject: INDIANS and some more thoughts...
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2000.055911.0700.>

This is a mail directed to Mario E. Aguilar and Yaoxochitl, but I think
it contains enough relevant information(*) to merit posting it to the
list.

I'll commence with an analysis of Yaoxochitl's mail. He/she makes a very
simple comment. Essentially that "indian/indio" should not be used when
referring to the people encountered by the Europeans in 1492 in that land
mass.

I agree.

To say otherwise would be to contradict obvious fact. It would be to say
that the sky is not blue (as in the specific wavelength of light that
most english-speaking humans have agreed upon to refer to as "blue".) A
mistake was made. To accept this fact leads to the next logical question:
Should be strive to correct this error in the language?

You cannot force people to change their opinions, much less force them to
accept the truth. One can try, but will most likely fail. You
(Yaoxochitl) say that we should. Yet you do the same thing that you're
criticising. You call "Columbus" "Columbus", yet his name was and always
will be "Cristoforo Colombo". Should you correct it? I think so.
Will/Could you change it? Probably not.

Then you say an indian is someone that is from India. India is a large
country. I'm positive there is someone somewhere there that is "indian"
yet does use "indian" to call themselves that. Can you force a Bengali or
Kashmiri to be "indian" just because they where born in India?

I could continue with Africa, which is an interesting example, but I
think you get the point. To bring to someone's attention an inaccurate
label is good, but people will not give it much value unless you are
willing to do the same for others, period.

On to Mario E. Aguilar. Frankly, I got lost reading your soliloquy. It
was so full of un-topical, irrelevant, random comments tied together with
personal attacks that I had to read it several times to see a point.

You say that even though "indian/indio" is incorrect, we should accept it
and move on. I do not agree with this anymore than I agree with calling
Taco Bell food mexican, but I see merit in this. Words are rather trivial
in the long run. There are other, much bigger things to worry about
(hunger, corruption, survival in general). But to say that ALL should
resign themselves to the label without at least giving a rational
explanation is quite immature.

I think that's it. If you two have a reply, please e-mail it to me
directly, no point in annoying others.

(*) On relevance: To many of you this discussion might seen rather
stupid. Perhaps, but this list is about nahuatl. Nahuatl is not a dead
language. Like most things in Mexico, many people have many opinions
regarding it that can be quite different and even contradictory. I also
believe that Mexicans today are not all that different from Mexicans that
lived 500 years ago or even 1,000 years ago. Language is important, but
so is the way the people who speak it/spoke it think. Debates such as
these are useful is learning a little more about the problems of Nahuatl
speakers (or at least their descendants.)

Chema


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sun Feb  6 13:52:42 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 06:52:42 -0700
Subject: Indians
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2000.065242.0700.>

Listeros,

Yaoxochitzin began the discussion of this topic with a adolescent
and uninformed invective. Of course, who among us has not done such a
thing?

In the end, it seems wise to call a particular people by the name that
they want to be called. When my Navajo friends want to be called
"Indians," I do them the honor of following their directive.

Best,

Michael McCafferty


From micc at home.com  Sun Feb  6 18:19:07 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 11:19:07 -0700
Subject: INDIANS and some more thoughts...
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2000.111907.0700.>

Chema,

You have succinctly captured the essence of this complex, human, and
passionate subject....

To me, it is not a matter of what labels we choose for ourselves.... it
is how we respect the labels others have chosen and how we carry
ourselves in our path of life.

Living a life or anger, hatred and, dogmatic purity is not a sign of
being a warrior.  It is a sign of not having a high intelligence ( Do
THE NAMES Hitler, Stalin, Balboa, Alvarado, Atilla, Tlacaelel, Idi Amin,
Ghengis Khan ring a bell?  They did not kill millions of innocent people
by themselves, they had "noble and loyal warriors who did the
butchering)

too many people (especially young people....AND YES I TOO WAS ONE OF
THEM... MANY CENTURIES AGO!!) spend so much of their sacred and finite
energy, re-batlling the battles that were won or lost long ago.

i did not use ...>  You my son, most precious feather, must not fall
into this darkness...."facetiously.... yaoquichtli IS OUR SON (OR
DAUGHTER.....although correctly a female would be yaocihuatl) and he/she
IS A PRECIOUS FEATHER to our people....We chicanos have more angry and
lost,young men rotting in prison than we do attending college...THAT IS
A TRAGIC WASTE OF LIFE..... and no amount of revgisionism, hatred or
political correctness can change that!

i am 45 years old.  I have been involved in the
Chicano/indigenous/olitical/spiritual/educational/economic struggle for
27 years.  I have seen  many sincere activists end up wasting their
lives with anger, self-defeating behavior (drugs, alcohol, etc) i have
seen self-appointed prophets, leaders, elders, and so-called Nahuatl
experts come into our communities and take advantage of the naive and
innocent who are looking for something or someone to help them find
meaning in their life.


it is only after we have climbed the pyramid that we can see how far we
can fall....


mario e. aguilar
www.aguila-blanca.com


 I never state that we should "we should accept it (even though
"indian/indio" is incorrect),
> and move on.

i simply stated that for those people who LIVE AN INDIGENOUS LIFE
EVERYDAY (as opposed to those who study it, dream of it, or wish it upon
themselves) indian/indio is not a big issue. The bigg issue for them is
economic, political, linguistic, spiritual and gentetic survival.

that is why I write my ..." soliloquy. It
> was so full of un-topical, irrelevant, random comments tied together with
> personal attacks that I had to read it several times to see a point."

The point is that there are too many people fidgeting over how many
indians/indigenists are dancing on the head of a pin.










Jose Maria Hernandez Gil wrote:
>
> This is a mail directed to Mario E. Aguilar and Yaoxochitl, but I think
> it contains enough relevant information(*) to merit posting it to the
> list.
>
> I'll commence with an analysis of Yaoxochitl's mail. He/she makes a very
> simple comment. Essentially that "indian/indio" should not be used when
> referring to the people encountered by the Europeans in 1492 in that land
> mass.
>
> I agree.
>
> To say otherwise would be to contradict obvious fact. It would be to say
> that the sky is not blue (as in the specific wavelength of light that
> most english-speaking humans have agreed upon to refer to as "blue".) A
> mistake was made. To accept this fact leads to the next logical question:
> Should be strive to correct this error in the language?
>
> You cannot force people to change their opinions, much less force them to
> accept the truth. One can try, but will most likely fail. You
> (Yaoxochitl) say that we should. Yet you do the same thing that you're
> criticising. You call "Columbus" "Columbus", yet his name was and always
> will be "Cristoforo Colombo". Should you correct it? I think so.
> Will/Could you change it? Probably not.
>
> Then you say an indian is someone that is from India. India is a large
> country. I'm positive there is someone somewhere there that is "indian"
> yet does use "indian" to call themselves that. Can you force a Bengali or
> Kashmiri to be "indian" just because they where born in India?
>
> I could continue with Africa, which is an interesting example, but I
> think you get the point. To bring to someone's attention an inaccurate
> label is good, but people will not give it much value unless you are
> willing to do the same for others, period.
>
> On to Mario E. Aguilar. Frankly, I got lost reading your soliloquy. It
> was so full of un-topical, irrelevant, random comments tied together with
> personal attacks that I had to read it several times to see a point.
>
> You say that even though "indian/indio" is incorrect, we should accept it
> and move on. I do not agree with this anymore than I agree with calling
> Taco Bell food mexican, but I see merit in this. Words are rather trivial
> in the long run. There are other, much bigger things to worry about
> (hunger, corruption, survival in general). But to say that ALL should
> resign themselves to the label without at least giving a rational
> explanation is quite immature.
>
> I think that's it. If you two have a reply, please e-mail it to me
> directly, no point in annoying others.
>
> (*) On relevance: To many of you this discussion might seen rather
> stupid. Perhaps, but this list is about nahuatl. Nahuatl is not a dead
> language. Like most things in Mexico, many people have many opinions
> regarding it that can be quite different and even contradictory. I also
> believe that Mexicans today are not all that different from Mexicans that
> lived 500 years ago or even 1,000 years ago. Language is important, but
> so is the way the people who speak it/spoke it think. Debates such as
> these are useful is learning a little more about the problems of Nahuatl
> speakers (or at least their descendants.)
>
> Chema


From micc at home.com  Sun Feb  6 18:32:08 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 11:32:08 -0700
Subject: trying to find the word for...
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2000.113208.0700.>

dear Alex,

Thanks for your message!!

I was trying to remember what word was ( without having to resort to my
beloved Karttunen, Molina, and Simeon dictionaries)!!!!


in the danza Azteca, we use the "macanas" which are more correctly
called clubs, rather than swords.  After reading your message, I
remembered how my maestro Florencio Yescas described the clubs as "palos
de mano"

thanks again!!!

alexis wimmer wrote:
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> Lucas Molina <lm412 at is9.nyu.edu> wrote
>
> >please don't think this odd but i collect knives and weapons and was
> >wondering what the name for the "aztec sword" is in nahuatl.  i've seen
> >a couple of examples at the New York Natural History Museum, but would
> >also like to know if anyone knows where i could find a picture on the
> >net somewhere.  i was thinking about trying to commission a flintknapper
> >to make one and am baffled about the method used to hold the blade in
> >place.
> >
> >Lucas Molina
> >
>
> Dear Lucas
>
> the Nahuatl word for the indigenous sword is macuahuitl. A variant is
> maccuahuitl. The usualy explaining of this word is to say it that it comes
> from cuahuitl, tree, wood, stick and ma:-itl, hand, or ma:c, a locative
> word, in the hand. Also hand-stick or stick (hold) in the hand.
> But can this word not be in relation with the verb ma:cuauhti, for the arm
> (or the hand) to become stiff ?
>
> Sincerely yours
>
> Alexis.


From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Sun Feb  6 19:35:35 2000
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 12:35:35 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS,
 AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE INTROVERTS
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2000.123535.0700.>

For this list to work, all participants must respects each other's opinions.
If you don't agree with someone, then you should present an argument which
supports your point of view.  Beginning a message with "my revered child"
establishes a hierarchy between the speaker and the person spoken to in
which the latter's ideas are automatically stripped of value.  This
discursive violence is not conducive to the exchange of information nor to
the solving of important social problems.
	John Sullivan
	Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de
micc at home.com
Enviado el: S�bado, 05 de Febrero de 2000 06:34 p.m.
Para: Multiple recipients of list
Asunto: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE INTROVERTS


My most revered child,

You seem to be one of the many young and insecure Chicanos who, having
suddenly realized their "indigenismo" suddenly turn sacred, holy, and
arrogant.

there are MILLIONS of indigenous people, from the tip of Alaska, to the
tip of Tierra del fuego, that have learned to deal with that word
indio.  Zapata called himself "un indio", and he was truly a greater
yaochquichtli than a mocoso intellectual fanatic that lives his/her life
in the shadows of the internet discussion groups.

someday, when you have grown up, travel throughout this beautiful land,
talk to the elders, and learn to do away with, even KILL your anger and
hatred.  It does no one any good.... especially you.

You write to me in English, ARE YOU ENGLISH???? did your mother and
grandmother pray to coatlicue and chicomecoatl?  did your grandfather
offer blood sacrifice from his penis, overtime he harvested the
mosquito larvae from your local hueyapan?  Do you currently wear a
tilma' to work?

i bet you wear baggy jeans, a bandana or two, use athletic shoes, or
work boots, and perhaps even have a TV and CD player in your house...

YOU NOR I CANNOT CHANGE THE PATH OF HISTORY.  MASSACRES, WARS, PLAGUES,
AND CONQUEST ARE THE LOT OF ALL HUMANITY.  AS LONG AS THERE ARE PEOPLE
DOMINATED BY HATE AND ANGER, THIS WILL ALWAYS BE. As soon as the young
treasures of our nation, people such as yourself, can find it in their
heart to teach kindness, justice, truth and peace,      then and only
then
can the nightmare of human greed, violence, and murder end.  greed has
never been caused by true love.  Only by arrogance and
self-centeredness, whether it is individual, or national.

You my son, most precious feather, must not fall into this darkness.
Only Ometoetl can ever know why history has developed as it has.  Are
you arrogant enough (like the "White man you so hate) to think that your
mind is the way the Earth, its history, and its people, should be?

"your experience" in self-determination, is an illusion.  as long as you
are part of any society (nation of Aztlan, republican party, Ricky
martin fan club, or molotov fan club) you will always rely on that
society's "determination" as to what is appropriate and acceptable.
True determination, self, group, or otherwise comes from understanding
the great message of Ometoetl.  your political centered world view
ignores the greater law of justice. In the final analysis, what happens
on this planet, and what happens to our people is OF ABSOLUTELY NO
CONSEQUENCE TO THE UNIVERSE.....  I hope you do not believe that if we
do not pray and sacrifice to the gods, the world will end.....for that
self centered egotism is the most abominable of sins in the eyes of the
lord and lady of creation.  that is why the Mexi'ca were abandoned so
many centuries ago....abandoned by their gods, their friends and their
enemies.  because they believed that the world needed them to exist.
the tragic truth was that THEY needed everybody else (that they
oppressed, like the EURO-AFRICAN CENTERED ACADEMIA does today) to exist.


In chipahuac ihuan chicahuac.  4 words speak what all the "isms" of your
world view cannot say.  508 years of hatred, violence, war, and genocide
cannot ever be erased.  But do you want our people to spend the next 508
years seething with anger and hate????


Remember, this is the third millennium of the european calendar, and IT
IS THE FINAL COUNTDOWN OF THE KATUN.  YOU HAVE ONLY 11 YEARS LEFT TO
BURY YOUR ANGER, AND FOLLOW THE PATH OF LIGHT.  ONCE THIS KATUN ENDS, IF
WE DO NOT HAVE OUR CUITLATL TOGETHER "INDIGENOUS" TO ALL CONTINENTS,
THEN WE WILL BE FORCED TO REPEAT THE PAST KATUN.

remember most precious nephew,  most sacred wind, WHAT YOU DO TODAY, IS
GOING TO HELP YOU OR HURT YOU FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE......

take a risk....join the world....life is a blessing.....


InLak'ech nopiltzin


 Thank you for
> your time in reading my email.

Mario E. Aguilar
Quetzalcoatl Cuauhtlecoc





Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
>
> You really should change the word "indio" to indigena.  It is insulting to
> the indigenous people of Anahuac.  Those that are ignorant call the
> indigenous people of Anahuac, "indio".  Please do not get the wrong
> impression from me; I am not calling you ignorant.  It is from my own
> experience through self-determination that I have learned that the term,
> "indio" is a pejorative term among indigenos.  I suggest you change the
name.
>  Everybody knows that this term is a 500+year-old bad habit generated by
that
> idiot, Cristobal Colon when he thought he landed in the east Indies.
Hence,
> the term Indian accurately belongs to the people of India.  Thank you for
> your time in reading my email.

Michael Mccafferty wrote:
>
> >
> > On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > Please rid yourself of the term "indian" from your vocabulary when
referring
> > > to the indigenous people of these lands.  It is an inaccurate label.
> > >
> >
> All the Indians I know, including my Cherokee relatives, refer to
> themselves as Indians. No one is particularly enamoured of the term
> "Native American." It sounds contrived, like something
> concocted in a scientist's laboratory. "Native American" is, of course,
> used in official correspondence with the government and that sort of
> thing.
>
> When you think about it, Germans are not really Germans. That term just
> refers to a Germanic-speaking tribe. And how about the French? There they
> are bearing the name of *German* tribe. Wonder if the French thought
> about that during WW I and WW II.
>
> Fortunately, as a soothing balm for the inordinately politically correct,
> English at least no longers uses "savages" to denote American Indians.
> This unfortunate term, of course, was simply a skewed borrowing from the
> French /sauvages/, 'wild ones'. However, it is dismaying how often
> "savages" continued to be seen in the work of historians even into the
> second half of the 20th century.
>
> Michael McCafferty
> Indiana University


From karttu at nantucket.net  Sun Feb  6 20:29:25 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 13:29:25 -0700
Subject: Native Americans
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2000.132925.0700.>

Ohiyesa/Charles Eastman was a Santee born in Minnesota and raised in
Manitoba in the second half of the 1800s.  He used the term "Native
American" long before anyone else that I was aware of=8Auntil very recently
when I came across the use by Roger Williams all the way back in 1643.  So
it's not such a contrived neologism as one might think.  It was certainly
more enlightened and thoughtful on the part of Williams than the labels the
French and English were applying to the Algonquins and the Iroqouis at the
time.

Fran Karttunen


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Mon Feb  7 15:54:22 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 08:54:22 -0700
Subject: Debate over "Indians"
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.085422.0700.>

Dear List members,

Now that there seems to be a lull in the discussion, I'd like to requerst
that we leave this topic.  While it is of great interest and certainly
valid, this is not the place.  As has been noted, this is the Nahuat-l
listserv dedicate to the study of the Nahua and the Nahuatl language.  Thus
far no one has noted that that the colonial Nahua referred to themselves
not as "indiosme" as one might expect, but as "nican tlaca"  (people from
here).

So it has been an exciting weekend, but let's call it quits, please.

I ask also that people not "shoot from the lip"  Before engaging in
discussion that we know will be acrimonious, try sending a note to the
person off-line, that is outside of the list.

J. F. Schwaller,
List Owner


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From noharm at worldonline.nl  Mon Feb  7 20:28:41 2000
From: noharm at worldonline.nl (Harm Puite)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 13:28:41 -0700
Subject: Tloque Nahuaque
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.132841.0700.>

You'll find these designations quite frequently in the historia
Tolteca-Chichimeca


From CCBtlevine at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 00:42:20 2000
From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:42:20 -0700
Subject: malinche
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.174220.0700.>

In a message dated 02/04/2000 3:00:35 AM Pacific Standard Time,=20
juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at writes:

<< Malinche" is the spanish version of "Malintzin" who was given to Cort=E9s=
 as
 "present"  >>

My understanding of  Malintzin is that it is the honorific form of Marina,=20
the name that Cortez gave to the slave girl.  The Nahuatl speaking people=20
could not pronounce the letter "R."   When they heard "R," they would=20
pronounce "L."  The "A" ending was dropped and the honorfic "tzin" was added=
.=20
 Thus, Marin(a)tzin becomes Malintzin.


From GESX1CKAH at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 00:58:20 2000
From: GESX1CKAH at aol.com (GESX1CKAH at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:58:20 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.175820.0700.>

I was told that if you add "zin" after a word that this meant beloved... for
example if I used the name of earth, Tlalli and added zin to make Tlallizin
as beloved earth... is this correct?

thank you
jess


From micc at home.com  Tue Feb  8 01:12:05 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:12:05 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.181205.0700.>

my understanding is that it means "revered, or honorable, not beloved.
Tla'zo would be love..... (i am not sure if there is a glottal stop in
there)


good luck!
mario www.aguila-blanca.com

GESX1CKAH at aol.com wrote:
>
> I was told that if you add "zin" after a word that this meant beloved... for
> example if I used the name of earth, Tlalli and added zin to make Tlallizin
> as beloved earth... is this correct?
>
> thank you
> jess


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 01:45:52 2000
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:45:52 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.184552.0700.>

I told u, "indigenous"


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 01:48:45 2000
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:48:45 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.184845.0700.>

Hey Mario, an empty can makes the loudes noise, and you truely are an empty
can!


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 01:51:30 2000
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:51:30 -0700
Subject: trying to find the word for...
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.185130.0700.>

the name for "aztec sword" is, I believe, Maquahuitl


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 02:04:56 2000
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:04:56 -0700
Subject: Indians
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.190456.0700.>

Micheal, my comment was adolescent?  Are you calling Kirkpatrick Sale's
exhaustive 7 year research on the Columbian legacy adolescent.  You need to
read some more son!


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 02:07:42 2000
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:07:42 -0700
Subject: Debate over "Indians"
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.190742.0700.>

I apologize Dr. Schwaller.  You are right, this is a Nahuatl server list
emphasizing the language.


From micc at home.com  Tue Feb  8 02:10:28 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:10:28 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.191028.0700.>

aprende a escribir guey!!

Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
>
> Hey Mario, an empty can makes the loudes noise, and you truely are an empty
> can!


From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net  Tue Feb  8 02:34:32 2000
From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:34:32 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.193432.0700.>

On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 GESX1CKAH at aol.com wrote:

|I was told that if you add "zin" after a word that this meant beloved...
|for example if I used the name of earth, Tlalli and added zin to make
|Tlallizin as beloved earth... is this correct?

Would that be the same thing as the suffixes:

   -tsi
   -tsin
   -tsinko

Similar to the -chen suffix in German, as in, mein Liebchen (my
sweetheart)?  Can this suffix go on verbs or pronouns, or does it
only go on nouns?  (I am referring to page 136 of Thelma Sullivan's
Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar.)  What kind of nouns can *not*
receive this suffix?  For instance, how about atl (water)?  Is
there an affectionate form of atl, say, atoltsi, my cherished
water?


From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net  Tue Feb  8 02:37:20 2000
From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:37:20 -0700
Subject: Indians
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.193720.0700.>

On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:

|Micheal, my comment was adolescent?  Are you calling Kirkpatrick Sale's
|exhaustive 7 year research on the Columbian legacy adolescent.  You need
|to read some more son!

What I'd *really* go for, is some good old-fashioned comic books in
Nahuatl!


From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb  8 02:50:19 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:50:19 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.195019.0700.>

The suffix is -tzin.  But it's added to noun stems, not to nouns in
absolutive form.  So from tlalli one gets tlaltzin, not tlallitzin.

----------
>From: GESX1CKAH at aol.com
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: is it zin or tzin??
>Date: Mon, Feb 7, 2000, 7:59 PM
>

>
>
> I was told that if you add "zin" after a word that this meant beloved... for
> example if I used the name of earth, Tlalli and added zin to make Tlallizin
> as beloved earth... is this correct?
>
> thank you
> jess
>


From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb  8 03:03:18 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 20:03:18 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.200318.0700.>

-tzin has two distinct meanings.  It has what I think was its basic meaning,
which is an affectionate diminutive: 'dear little.'

But a second, honorific use developed for -tzin.   So Teotl inantzin is
'God's reverend mother' rather than 'God's dear little mother.'

The honorific use was and still is more geographically restricted than the
affectionate diminutive.  Up in the Huasteca the honorific -tzin is
restricted to religious terminology in Nahuatl that was introduced by
Christian evangelists some time after the conquest.

On the other hand, honorific -tzin for rulers and other influential people
was in use in the central Nahuatl-speaking area when the Spanish arrived.

By contrast with Nahuatl as spoken in the Huasteca, where honorifics are
nearly absent, Nahuatl speakers of the Tlaxcala area developed and have
retained an honorific system more complicated than that used by the Mexica
of the central valley of Mexico.

Polite speech (which involves more than adding -tzin to nouns) is so
complicated that I can't imagine how anybody manages to speak properly to
their elderly compadres.

Fran Karttunen
----------
>From: micc at home.com
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: is it zin or tzin??
>Date: Mon, Feb 7, 2000, 8:13 PM
>

> my understanding is that it means "revered, or honorable, not beloved.
> Tla'zo would be love..... (i am not sure if there is a glottal stop in
> there)
>
>
> good luck!
> mario www.aguila-blanca.com
>
> GESX1CKAH at aol.com wrote:
>>
>> I was told that if you add "zin" after a word that this meant beloved... for
>> example if I used the name of earth, Tlalli and added zin to make Tlallizin
>> as beloved earth... is this correct?
>>
>> thank you
>> jess
>


From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb  8 03:16:12 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 20:16:12 -0700
Subject: One more thing about honorifics
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.201612.0700.>

One directs honorifics to others.  If a man politely addresses a person
named Yaoxochitl, for instance, he uses the -tzin and also the vocative
suffix -e:  So a man would say Yaoxochitzine or the contracted form
Yaoxochitze.

If a woman addresses the same Yaoxochitl, she would use the -tzin, but not
the locative -e, because the -e vocative was restricted to men's speech.

But if a woman reports that a man has politely addressed this Yaoxochitl,
she would report that the man said "Yaoxochitzine."  It's not that women
were prohibited from saying -tzine.  Women just did the vocative part for
themselves by intonation instead of with -e.

The big prohibition is using the honorific in reference to oneself.
Yaoxochitl should never refer to himself as Yaoxochitzin.

Adding a -tzin to one's own name is a gaffe that will usually provoke a lot
of laughter and teasing.

Of course speaking respectfully about a person or people in the third person
(like the Blessed Virgin as Teotl inantzin) is always proper.

The difference between the BVM and Coatlicue, by the way, is that the Virgin
is Teotl inantzin 'God's reverend mother' and the Aztec mother deity is
Teteoh innantzin 'the reverend mother of the gods.'

This little essay on Mexica politeness has two aims.  One is grammatical,
and the other is a gentle reminder to listeros that the Mexica were very,
VERY polite, and we should humbly follow their example.

Enough said.


From micc at home.com  Tue Feb  8 05:21:06 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 22:21:06 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.222106.0700.>

Frances,

it would be interesting to see if the Tlaxcalteca honorific methodology
of speaking to their elders has been transmitted to the modern Mexican
Spanish spoken in the area.

Frances Karttunen wrote:
>
> -tzin has two distinct meanings.  It has what I think was its basic meaning,
> which is an affectionate diminutive: 'dear little.'
>
> But a second, honorific use developed for -tzin.   So Teotl inantzin is
> 'God's reverend mother' rather than 'God's dear little mother.'
>
> The honorific use was and still is more geographically restricted than the
> affectionate diminutive.  Up in the Huasteca the honorific -tzin is
> restricted to religious terminology in Nahuatl that was introduced by
> Christian evangelists some time after the conquest.
>
> On the other hand, honorific -tzin for rulers and other influential people
> was in use in the central Nahuatl-speaking area when the Spanish arrived.
>
> By contrast with Nahuatl as spoken in the Huasteca, where honorifics are
> nearly absent, Nahuatl speakers of the Tlaxcala area developed and have
> retained an honorific system more complicated than that used by the Mexica
> of the central valley of Mexico.
>
> Polite speech (which involves more than adding -tzin to nouns) is so
> complicated that I can't imagine how anybody manages to speak properly to
> their elderly compadres.
>
> Fran Karttunen
> ----------
> >From: micc at home.com
> >To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: is it zin or tzin??
> >Date: Mon, Feb 7, 2000, 8:13 PM
> >
>
> > my understanding is that it means "revered, or honorable, not beloved.
> > Tla'zo would be love..... (i am not sure if there is a glottal stop in
> > there)
> >
> >
> > good luck!
> > mario www.aguila-blanca.com
> >
> > GESX1CKAH at aol.com wrote:
> >>
> >> I was told that if you add "zin" after a word that this meant beloved... for
> >> example if I used the name of earth, Tlalli and added zin to make Tlallizin
> >> as beloved earth... is this correct?
> >>
> >> thank you
> >> jess
> >


From XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 06:36:59 2000
From: XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com (XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:36:59 -0700
Subject: Nahua Net Names
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.233659.0700.>

Even though I didn't originate the question, thank you Frances for clarifying
re: -tzin.  :-) These are precisely the kind of fact-a-day posts that I enjoy
receiveing from the list.

karttu at nantucket.net writes:
<< The big prohibition is using the honorific in reference to oneself.
Yaoxochitl should never refer to himself as Yaoxochitzin.
Adding a -tzin to one's own name is a gaffe that will usually provoke a lot
of laughter and teasing. >>

I of course realize that this statement is not directed specifically to me,
but it does bring up something I've been thinking about for a while as I
study the issues of identity on the Internet, which often includes the act of
self-naming.

My AOL Screen Name is not a Nahuatl name I have taken for myself as a person,
nor do I expect to be addressed by it.  I don't sign my posts to this
listserv using it, but am often referred to as "Xocoyo" or "Copitzin" in
other non-nahuatl venues where I desire a modicum of anonymity.  Because of
the sophisticated nature of the work we do together in those forums, not a
one of the participants confuses me with the nature of the screen name.

Here on Nahuat-l, should you ever need to quote me, I'd rather you just call
me Alison King.  :-)  I wouldn't presume to take a Nahua name for my own
unless I had a legitimate reason to.  Xocoyocopitzin is, however, the name
for a storybook character I'm currently researching and writing about, and
since much of the book's conversation happens between Xocoyocopitzin and her
revered elder, the -tzin was important for me to include in the Screen Name.
I employ the -tzin in a fond, diminiutive sense.  Who knows, maybe I even got
some part of the name wrong in my haste to get started on the project before
resubscribing here.  I guess now would be a good time to find out if I'm in
error.  :-)

Of course, you wouldn't know a shred of this reasoning unless I'd shared
today.  I bring it up because I think its important to realize that folks
using Nahuatl names on the internet may be doing so for an increasingly wide
variety of reasons, some of which have to do with Real Life identity (ala
Mexica Movement), and others for more conceptual reasons (poetic license), or
in my case, arts & entertainment purposes in a ficitonwriting club.

As the Age of the Internet swells into a sizeably legitimate form of
worldwide cultural revolution, the integration of Nahua words and principles
into Net culture is going to be an inevitable fact.  (A quick search of the
AOL Screen Name database shows quite a few.... creative.... uses of the term
"coatl", "yaotl", "Tezcatlipoca" and "quetzal") We're bound to see increased
use and abuse of the language as the Net is cast wider.  I'm sure a good
number of us are familiar with the dangers of "playing indian" (let's let
that beaten horse lie), and the Internet makes that even more tempting to do
on all sorts of levels, largely because of the anonymity that the medium
affords.

Interesting times, indeed.

For those of you who have taken Nahua Net Names (whether of Mexican descent
or not), I'd be interested to hear the reasons why, how you use your name,
whether it was self-conceived or given to you, how others perceive and use it
on the Net, the process you may have gone through to choose a Nahua Net name
for yourself, and perhaps what it means to you to bear a Nahua Net name in
this small, small world.


Alison King


From micc at home.com  Tue Feb  8 07:10:43 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 00:10:43 -0700
Subject: Nahua Net Names
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.001043.0700.>

You raise some interesting questions in regards to the internet and the
use of nahuatl names for internet "identities"  i am sure that some
people will not like "non-indigenous people" using nahuatl names, but
that is another story.....

ihave a nahuatl name that was given to me by my Azteca dance maestro in
1975. Quetzalcoatl, he said fit me since I was always trying to learn
the cultural ways of our past.  of course, at that time he did not know
about the 18th and 19th century revisions of Quetzalcoatl as a "god of
wisdom", but his sentiments were nevertheless kind and thoguhtful.

In 1980 when i was given recognition as a tla'toani (or as is more
commonly used in the danza: Capitan) by a group of Danza Azteca elders
at Tepeyacac, I chose the name Cuauhtlecoc as my Danza name.


Today, all of the young kids who have been born into my dance group have
spanish names ( or as some purists call them "slave names) for use in
the schools, and regular "business"  and Nahuatl or Yaqui middle names
for ceremonial use only.  We have a large population of Mexicanos who
come from Sonora and Sinaloa, where the Yoreme and Cora live, so the
Yaqui names are popular.

My son, as student at UCLA has as  his ceremonial name Ehecatl, and my
daughter has  Metztli

Over the past two years or so that I have been a menmber of the nahuat-l
and Aztlan groups, i have seen a rise in requests for Nahuatl or
indigenous names for new born children.


XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com wrote:
>
> Even though I didn't originate the question, thank you Frances for clarifying
> re: -tzin.  :-) These are precisely the kind of fact-a-day posts that I enjoy
> receiveing from the list.
>
> karttu at nantucket.net writes:
> << The big prohibition is using the honorific in reference to oneself.
> Yaoxochitl should never refer to himself as Yaoxochitzin.
> Adding a -tzin to one's own name is a gaffe that will usually provoke a lot
> of laughter and teasing. >>
>
> I of course realize that this statement is not directed specifically to me,
> but it does bring up something I've been thinking about for a while as I
> study the issues of identity on the Internet, which often includes the act of
> self-naming.
>
> My AOL Screen Name is not a Nahuatl name I have taken for myself as a person,
> nor do I expect to be addressed by it.  I don't sign my posts to this
> listserv using it, but am often referred to as "Xocoyo" or "Copitzin" in
> other non-nahuatl venues where I desire a modicum of anonymity.  Because of
> the sophisticated nature of the work we do together in those forums, not a
> one of the participants confuses me with the nature of the screen name.
>
> Here on Nahuat-l, should you ever need to quote me, I'd rather you just call
> me Alison King.  :-)  I wouldn't presume to take a Nahua name for my own
> unless I had a legitimate reason to.  Xocoyocopitzin is, however, the name
> for a storybook character I'm currently researching and writing about, and
> since much of the book's conversation happens between Xocoyocopitzin and her
> revered elder, the -tzin was important for me to include in the Screen Name.
> I employ the -tzin in a fond, diminiutive sense.  Who knows, maybe I even got
> some part of the name wrong in my haste to get started on the project before
> resubscribing here.  I guess now would be a good time to find out if I'm in
> error.  :-)
>
> Of course, you wouldn't know a shred of this reasoning unless I'd shared
> today.  I bring it up because I think its important to realize that folks
> using Nahuatl names on the internet may be doing so for an increasingly wide
> variety of reasons, some of which have to do with Real Life identity (ala
> Mexica Movement), and others for more conceptual reasons (poetic license), or
> in my case, arts & entertainment purposes in a ficitonwriting club.
>
> As the Age of the Internet swells into a sizeably legitimate form of
> worldwide cultural revolution, the integration of Nahua words and principles
> into Net culture is going to be an inevitable fact.  (A quick search of the
> AOL Screen Name database shows quite a few.... creative.... uses of the term
> "coatl", "yaotl", "Tezcatlipoca" and "quetzal") We're bound to see increased
> use and abuse of the language as the Net is cast wider.  I'm sure a good
> number of us are familiar with the dangers of "playing indian" (let's let
> that beaten horse lie), and the Internet makes that even more tempting to do
> on all sorts of levels, largely because of the anonymity that the medium
> affords.
>
> Interesting times, indeed.
>
> For those of you who have taken Nahua Net Names (whether of Mexican descent
> or not), I'd be interested to hear the reasons why, how you use your name,
> whether it was self-conceived or given to you, how others perceive and use it
> on the Net, the process you may have gone through to choose a Nahua Net name
> for yourself, and perhaps what it means to you to bear a Nahua Net name in
> this small, small world.
>
> Alison King


From lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr  Tue Feb  8 10:05:00 2000
From: lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr (Patrick LESBRE)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 03:05:00 -0700
Subject: trying to find the word for...
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.030500.0700.>

At 20:03 05/02/00 -0700, vous avez =E9crit:
>please don't think this odd but i collect knives and weapons and was
>wondering what the name for the "aztec sword" is in nahuatl.  i've seen
>a couple of examples at the New York Natural History Museum, but would
>also like to know if anyone knows where i could find a picture on the
>net somewhere.  i was thinking about trying to commission a flintknapper
>to make one and am baffled about the method used to hold the blade in
>place.
>
>Lucas Molina
>
>

___________________

Patrick LESBRE
Universit=E9 de Toulouse le Mirail
32 rue la Fonderie
31000 TOULOUSE
t=E9l./fax  33(0)5 61 14 26 99
email lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr


From muyalbalam03 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  8 10:18:00 2000
From: muyalbalam03 at hotmail.com (Roberto Tirado)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 03:18:00 -0700
Subject: trying to find the word for...
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.031800.0700.>

macehuatl


From: Patrick LESBRE <lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr>
Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Subject: Re: trying to find the word for...
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 03:05:15 -0700

At 20:03 05/02/00 -0700, vous avez =E9crit:
 >please don't think this odd but i collect knives and weapons and was
 >wondering what the name for the "aztec sword" is in nahuatl.  i've seen
 >a couple of examples at the New York Natural History Museum, but would
 >also like to know if anyone knows where i could find a picture on the
 >net somewhere.  i was thinking about trying to commission a flintknapper
 >to make one and am baffled about the method used to hold the blade in
 >place.
 >
 >Lucas Molina
 >
 >

___________________

Patrick LESBRE
Universit=E9 de Toulouse le Mirail
32 rue la Fonderie
31000 TOULOUSE
t=E9l./fax  33(0)5 61 14 26 99
email lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb  8 13:03:08 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 06:03:08 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.060308.0700.>

> Frances,
>
> it would be interesting to see if the Tlaxcalteca honorific methodology
> of speaking to their elders has been transmitted to the modern Mexican
> Spanish spoken in the area.



Yes it has.  In all its complexity.

But there are complicated forces at work. Some communities dispense with the
honorifics in the interest of community solidarity, and even in
Puebla-Tlaxcala, language shift to Spanish looms.

Jane and Ken Hill and Alberto Zepeda (of San Miguel Canoa) carried out a
long-term study of Nahuatl language use in the Malinche volcano area and
published it as a book titled "Speaking Mexicano."

Albertohtzin has also team-taught with Joe Campbell and me, teaching those
four levels of Malinche-area honorifics to quite a few other people from the
USA, Latin America, and even one from Africa.

Fran


From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb  8 13:37:11 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 06:37:11 -0700
Subject: trying to find the word for...
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.063711.0700.>

>  >please don't think this odd but i collect knives and weapons and was
>  >wondering what the name for the "aztec sword" is in nahuatl.
>

> macehuatl
>
Eh?  As several listeros have already pointed out, the word sought is
ma:ccuahuitl (from ma:c 'hand-locative' plus cuahuitl 'tree, wood, staff,
stick, or beam.'

The word ma:ce:hualli  (I am using the colon here to indicate a long vowel)
is a word often used where Spanish speakers would use 'indio.'  Its basic
meaning is one who is a subject to someone else.  So Nahuatl-speaking
commoners identified themselves as ma:ce:hualtin with respect to their lords
and rulers.

But by the rules of Nahuatl polite speech, the humble were raised up, while
the powerful minimized their own importance.  So supreme rulers almost
always referred to themselves as ma:ce:hualtin and usually
icno:ma:ce:hualtin 'poor commoners in need of compassion.'  This did not
fool anyone, of course.  Nor was it self-abasement.  When a ruler
resplendent in quetzal feathers and golden ear plugs spoke of himself as a
ma:ce:hualli, he was admired for his rhetorical correctness, and nobody
dared take any liberties or familiarities with such a proud and all-powerful
man.

Once the great lords of preconquest times had been brought low, there was
gradually less and less distinction between real ma:ce:hualtin and honorific
ones.  Once everybody had been made subjects of the Spanish king and the
Christian God, ma:ce:hualli came to mean 'indigenous person' (even used by
Nahuatl-speakers to refer to other indigenous peoples besides themselves)
and also 'speaker of Nahuatl.'  Besides Mexicano, another name in use for
Nahuatl among its speakers is ma:ce:huallahto:lli (< ma:ce:hual- plus
tlahto:lli 'speech").

There has been a mistaken etymology of ma:ce:hualli perpetuated through
studies that haven't taken vowel length and "saltillo" into account, namely
that one is a ma:ce:hualli because of one's deserving-ness.  This is because
there is a verb mahce:hualtia: 'to give someone what s/he deserves.'  And
there is actually a noun mahce:hualli meaning 'merit, recompense.'  But as
you see, the 'deserving' words have a saltillo in the first syllable where
the 'subject' words have a long vowel.

There is another colorful speculation on the root meaning of ma:ce:hualli
(which I don't personally put any stock in), that it has to do with people
who dance around in circles with their hands resting on their hips.  This
etymology makes the word up from ma:- 'hand' and the verb ce:huia: 'to rest
or relieve something (in this case, one's hands).

The way I see it, a society that is strictly divided into two parts, a
ruling elite and a productive body of workers (as Mesoamerican societies
were) needs a word for the ruling class (pi:piltin) and another for the
subject people (ma:ce:hualtin), and why should we ask for more arcane
underlying meanings?


Frances Karttunen


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Feb  8 13:52:21 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 06:52:21 -0700
Subject: ma:ce:hualli
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.065221.0700.>

Ref: Dr. Kartunnen
>
> Once the great lords of preconquest times had been brought low, there was
> gradually less and less distinction between real ma:ce:hualtin and honorific
> ones.  Once everybody had been made subjects of the Spanish king and the
> Christian God, ma:ce:hualli came to mean 'indigenous person' (even used by
> Nahuatl-speakers to refer to other indigenous peoples besides themselves)
> and also 'speaker of Nahuatl.'  Besides Mexicano, another name in use for
> Nahuatl among its speakers is ma:ce:huallahto:lli (< ma:ce:hual- plus
> tlahto:lli 'speech").

Se dice: nitlahtoah macehualcopa, 'hablo mexicano'


Michael McCafferty


From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Tue Feb  8 14:56:13 2000
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 07:56:13 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.075613.0700.>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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This debate is becoming increasingly comic and by no means educational.  I
thought this was a list of educated and academic people, who were able to be
polite with each other. I'm sure Mr. Schwaller has stopped this.

In any case, you don't say "guey", but "buey" -- and, politely: BUEYTZIN!!

Susana

-----Original Message-----
From: micc at home.com <micc at home.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: marted� 8 febbraio 2000 3.11
Subject: Re: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE


>aprende a escribir guey!!
>
>Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
>>
>> Hey Mario, an empty can makes the loudes noise, and you truely are an
empty
>> can!

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VERSION:2.1
N:Moraleda;Susana
FN:Susana Moraleda
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
REV:20000208T144208Z
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From dfrye at umich.edu  Tue Feb  8 15:09:22 2000
From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:09:22 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.080922.0700.>

> it would be interesting to see if the Tlaxcalteca honorific methodology
> of speaking to their elders has been transmitted to the modern Mexican
> Spanish spoken in the area.

I have often thought that the ubiquitous use of "-ito" in Mexican Spanish
might be related to Nahuatl "-tzin" -- especially in cases where the
diminutive is rarely heard elsewhere in the Spanish-speaking world, such
as "nuestros difuntitos" or "mis muertitos" to refer to one's family dead.
Any thoughts?


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Feb  8 15:25:16 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:25:16 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.082516.0700.>

On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, marisol wrote:
>
> This debate is becoming increasingly comic and by no means educational.  I
> thought this was a list of educated and academic people, who were able to be
> polite with each other. I'm sure Mr. Schwaller has stopped this.
> >
> >Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
> >>
> >> Hey Mario, an empty can makes the loudes noise, and you truely are an
> empty
> >> can!

Yours is an interesting note in that it made me think of who the
participants really are on this list. I think it was *perhaps* designed
for what you term "educated and academic people," but as is plainly clear.
Many have probably come on board because a friend told them about it.
Plus, they are actually interested in Nahuatl. Marvelous. Some have other
agendas in participating as is clear from certain messages. But I think
the sort of stuff that has been recently bounced around is actually quite
expected if one thinks about the diversity of the membership.

Michael


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Feb  8 15:28:08 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:28:08 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.082808.0700.>

The two rather seem to be independent creations. Spanish -ito/a seems to
have a cognate form in French -et (m.) and -ette (f.) in French.
Just an idea.

Michael


On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, David L. Frye wrote:

> > it would be interesting to see if the Tlaxcalteca honorific methodology
> > of speaking to their elders has been transmitted to the modern Mexican
> > Spanish spoken in the area.
>
> I have often thought that the ubiquitous use of "-ito" in Mexican Spanish
> might be related to Nahuatl "-tzin" -- especially in cases where the
> diminutive is rarely heard elsewhere in the Spanish-speaking world, such
> as "nuestros difuntitos" or "mis muertitos" to refer to one's family dead.
> Any thoughts?
>
>


From scalderon at ref.pemex.com  Tue Feb  8 15:30:55 2000
From: scalderon at ref.pemex.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:30:55 -0700
Subject: dont read: test
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.083055.0700.>

test


From cberry at cinenet.net  Tue Feb  8 18:05:47 2000
From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:05:47 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.110547.0700.>

On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Michael Mccafferty wrote:

> The two rather seem to be independent creations. Spanish -ito/a seems to
> have a cognate form in French -et (m.) and -ette (f.) in French.
> Just an idea.

I think the idea was not one of word (well, suffix) borrowing, but rather
one of form borrowing.  That is, the ubiquitous use of an honorific and
diminutive suffix in Nahuatl led to former Nahuatl-speaking cultures
making heavy use of the Spanish diminutive, occasionally as if it were an
honorific.  It's an intriguing idea.

--
   |   Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net
 --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |   "The road of Excess leads to the Palace
      of Wisdom" - William Blake


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Feb  8 18:21:03 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:21:03 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.112103.0700.>

On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Craig Berry wrote:

> On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Michael Mccafferty wrote:
>
> > The two rather seem to be independent creations. Spanish -ito/a seems to
> > have a cognate form in French -et (m.) and -ette (f.) in French.
> > Just an idea.
>
> I think the idea was not one of word (well, suffix) borrowing, but rather
> one of form borrowing.  That is, the ubiquitous use of an honorific and
> diminutive suffix in Nahuatl led to former Nahuatl-speaking cultures
> making heavy use of the Spanish diminutive, occasionally as if it were an
> honorific.  It's an intriguing idea.

oh, I see. yeah, that is intriguing!

Michael


>
> --
>    |   Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net
>  --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
>    |   "The road of Excess leads to the Palace
>       of Wisdom" - William Blake
>


Michael McCafferty
C.E.L.T.
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

*******************************************************************************
"Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
from the me that others don't know
to the other me that I don't know.

-Juan Ramon Jimenez

*******************************************************************************


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Feb  8 18:34:56 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:34:56 -0700
Subject: ma:ce:hualli
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.113456.0700.>

On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Michael Mccafferty wrote:

>
> Ref: Dr. Kartunnen
> >
> > Once the great lords of preconquest times had been brought low, there was
> > gradually less and less distinction between real ma:ce:hualtin and honorific
> > ones.  Once everybody had been made subjects of the Spanish king and the
> > Christian God, ma:ce:hualli came to mean 'indigenous person' (even used by
> > Nahuatl-speakers to refer to other indigenous peoples besides themselves)
> > and also 'speaker of Nahuatl.'  Besides Mexicano, another name in use for
> > Nahuatl among its speakers is ma:ce:huallahto:lli (< ma:ce:hual- plus
> > tlahto:lli 'speech").
>
> Se dice: nitlahtoah macehualcopa, 'hablo mexicano'

Michael, that's actually /nitlahto:a' ma:ce:hualcopa/


Best,

Michael


>
>
> Michael McCafferty
>
>


Michael McCafferty


From fjgs at servidor.unam.mx  Wed Feb  9 04:20:47 2000
From: fjgs at servidor.unam.mx (Ehecatecolotl)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:20:47 -0700
Subject: ma:ce:hualli
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.212047.0700.>

Xinechmopohpolhuili, yeceh ya oniccac nican ompa Tenochtitlan nictlahtoa in
macehuallahtolli.

Tlazohcamati
Ehecatecolotl.


>Se dice: nitlahtoah macehualcopa, 'hablo mexicano'


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Feb  8 22:45:25 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 15:45:25 -0700
Subject: New system - PLEASE SAVE THIS
Message-ID: <TUE.08.FEB.2000.154525.0700.>

Dear Subacribers,

As of today, Nahuat-l is no longer being supported by a listproc software
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John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/



From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb  8 23:13:29 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:13:29 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.161329.0700.>

It's been an intriguing idea for a very, very long time, but the peculiar 
distribution of Spanish diminutive -ito/a in the Americas is much broader
than the formerly Nahuatl-speaking areas of core Mesoamerica.

Still, I feel (as everyone else does) that the difunditos/muertitos usage of
Mexico parallels the Nahuatl use so closely that it's hard to convince
oneself that they have nothing to do with each other.  The only
quasi-first-person use of honorific -tzin that Jim Lockhart and I found in
the hundreds of colonial Nahuatl documents we read was in the case of a
woman dictating her testament and making provisions for her corpse to lie
before the altarof her local church before burial.  Referring to herself
after death, she used the honorific.

Fran Karttunen

----------
>From: Craig Berry <cberry at cinenet.net>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: is it zin or tzin??
>Date: Tue, Feb 8, 2000, 1:07 PM
>

> On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Michael Mccafferty wrote:
>
>> The two rather seem to be independent creations. Spanish -ito/a seems to
>> have a cognate form in French -et (m.) and -ette (f.) in French.
>> Just an idea.
>
> I think the idea was not one of word (well, suffix) borrowing, but rather
> one of form borrowing.  That is, the ubiquitous use of an honorific and
> diminutive suffix in Nahuatl led to former Nahuatl-speaking cultures
> making heavy use of the Spanish diminutive, occasionally as if it were an
> honorific.  It's an intriguing idea.
>
> --
>    |   Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net
>  --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
>    |   "The road of Excess leads to the Palace
>       of Wisdom" - William Blake
> 



From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb  8 23:23:52 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:23:52 -0700
Subject: ma:ce:hualli
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.162352.0700.>

>> Ref: Dr. Kartunnen


And while we are on matters of precise segmental representation, to say
nothing of standard orthography, my Finnish name has a geminate -tt- and no
geminate -nn-.  The name is made up of the noun karttu- and the suffix -nen.
Getting it wrong makes simple-minded computer searches come up empty-handed.

Fran KarTTu-Nen.



From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb  8 23:44:10 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:44:10 -0700
Subject: ma:ce:hualli
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.164410.0700.>

>> 
>> Se dice: nitlahtoah macehualcopa, 'hablo mexicano'
> 
> Michael, that's actually /nitlahto:a' ma:ce:hualcopa/


Nope.  Not quite.  The first-person singular verb form is nitlahtoa.  The o
is not long, and in the singular there is no final saltillo (whether you
choose to spell it with -h or with -').

HOWEVER, in some varieties of currently spoken Nahuatl, there is an
aspiration of final vowels that are NOT followed by saltillo.  If that's
what your final -h means, ok.  But most people who write segmental saltillos
use the letter -h for that rather than for nonsegmental aspiration.

Fran



From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Wed Feb  9 00:14:35 2000
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:14:35 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.171435.0700.>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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"es muy facil ver la paja en el ojo ajeno y no la viga en el
propio".............


Susana


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Mccafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: marted� 8 febbraio 2000 16.30
Subject: Re: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE


>
>
>On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, marisol wrote:
>>
>> This debate is becoming increasingly comic and by no means educational.
I
>> thought this was a list of educated and academic people, who were able to
be
>> polite with each other. I'm sure Mr. Schwaller has stopped this.
>> >
>> >Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hey Mario, an empty can makes the loudes noise, and you truely are an
>> empty
>> >> can!
>
>Yours is an interesting note in that it made me think of who the
>participants really are on this list. I think it was *perhaps* designed
>for what you term "educated and academic people," but as is plainly clear.
>Many have probably come on board because a friend told them about it.
>Plus, they are actually interested in Nahuatl. Marvelous. Some have other
>agendas in participating as is clear from certain messages. But I think
>the sort of stuff that has been recently bounced around is actually quite
>expected if one thinks about the diversity of the membership.
>
>Michael
>


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From Amapohuani at aol.com  Wed Feb  9 00:45:01 2000
From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:45:01 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.174501.0700.>

In a message dated 2/8/00 3:24:04 PM, karttu at nantucket.net writes:

<< It's been an intriguing idea for a very, very long time, but the peculiar 
distribution of Spanish diminutive -ito/a in the Americas is much broader
than the formerly Nahuatl-speaking areas of core Mesoamerica.

Still, I feel (as everyone else does) that the difunditos/muertitos usage of
Mexico parallels the Nahuatl use so closely that it's hard to convince
oneself that they have nothing to do with each other.  The only
quasi-first-person use of honorific -tzin that Jim Lockhart and I found in
the hundreds of colonial Nahuatl documents we read was in the case of a
woman dictating her testament and making provisions for her corpse to lie
before the altarof her local church before burial.  Referring to herself
after death, she used the honorific.

Fran Karttunen >>

Listeros:

There are also a few (very few) occurrences in colonial Nahuatl 
ecclesiastical texts of first person use of -tzin. I am reminded of this 
because (literally) today I came across one while working on the Nahuatl 
drama YN ANIMASTIN YHVAN ALBACEASME (part of the Nahuatl Theater Series 
Louise Burkhart and I are working on). Occurs almost two thirds of the way 
through.  Towards the end of a response to Saint Mary, Christ at one point 
says "auh in nehuatzin." My vague memories of the other occurrences is that 
they involve God the Father speaking. 

Of course, the trouble with such materials is the uncertain extent to which 
native and non-native speakers of Nahuatl contributed to such texts. However 
in many respects this play and others like them have so many indications of 
direct Nahua intervention in their writing and/or translation from 
Spanish/Latin models that it is difficult to automatically ascribe this usage 
to a well-meaning (if not fully informed and fluent) Hispanic/Hispanized 
priest or layperson. 

Ye ixquich.
Barry D. Sell



From micc at home.com  Wed Feb  9 02:07:40 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:07:40 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.190740.0700.>

thanks Francis!


Where can one purchase this booK  "Speaking Mexicano"????




Frances Karttunen wrote:
> 
> > Frances,
> >
> > it would be interesting to see if the Tlaxcalteca honorific methodology
> > of speaking to their elders has been transmitted to the modern Mexican
> > Spanish spoken in the area.
> 
> Yes it has.  In all its complexity.
> 
> But there are complicated forces at work. Some communities dispense with the
> honorifics in the interest of community solidarity, and even in
> Puebla-Tlaxcala, language shift to Spanish looms.
> 
> Jane and Ken Hill and Alberto Zepeda (of San Miguel Canoa) carried out a
> long-term study of Nahuatl language use in the Malinche volcano area and
> published it as a book titled "Speaking Mexicano."
> 
> Albertohtzin has also team-taught with Joe Campbell and me, teaching those
> four levels of Malinche-area honorifics to quite a few other people from the
> USA, Latin America, and even one from Africa.
> 
> Fran



From micc at home.com  Wed Feb  9 02:17:54 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:17:54 -0700
Subject: trying to find the word for...
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.191754.0700.>

Frances,

This is a very interesting analysis, especially for me since i am trying
to find the root of macehauliztli, the dance ( as opposed to the more
common understood mi'totiliztli and netotiliztli)


Last year (or was it the year before) I hypothesized that mi'totia came
from  i'toa, but I was proven wrong.  Can you tell me what you believe
is the root of macehua (dancar in Molina) .

thanks!!!

mario e. aguilar
www.aguila-blanca.com

Frances Karttunen wrote:
> 
> >  >please don't think this odd but i collect knives and weapons and was
> >  >wondering what the name for the "aztec sword" is in nahuatl.
> >
> 
> > macehuatl
> >
> Eh?  As several listeros have already pointed out, the word sought is
> ma:ccuahuitl (from ma:c 'hand-locative' plus cuahuitl 'tree, wood, staff,
> stick, or beam.'
> 
> The word ma:ce:hualli  (I am using the colon here to indicate a long vowel)
> is a word often used where Spanish speakers would use 'indio.'  Its basic
> meaning is one who is a subject to someone else.  So Nahuatl-speaking
> commoners identified themselves as ma:ce:hualtin with respect to their lords
> and rulers.
> 
> But by the rules of Nahuatl polite speech, the humble were raised up, while
> the powerful minimized their own importance.  So supreme rulers almost
> always referred to themselves as ma:ce:hualtin and usually
> icno:ma:ce:hualtin 'poor commoners in need of compassion.'  This did not
> fool anyone, of course.  Nor was it self-abasement.  When a ruler
> resplendent in quetzal feathers and golden ear plugs spoke of himself as a
> ma:ce:hualli, he was admired for his rhetorical correctness, and nobody
> dared take any liberties or familiarities with such a proud and all-powerful
> man.
> 
> Once the great lords of preconquest times had been brought low, there was
> gradually less and less distinction between real ma:ce:hualtin and honorific
> ones.  Once everybody had been made subjects of the Spanish king and the
> Christian God, ma:ce:hualli came to mean 'indigenous person' (even used by
> Nahuatl-speakers to refer to other indigenous peoples besides themselves)
> and also 'speaker of Nahuatl.'  Besides Mexicano, another name in use for
> Nahuatl among its speakers is ma:ce:huallahto:lli (< ma:ce:hual- plus
> tlahto:lli 'speech").
> 
> There has been a mistaken etymology of ma:ce:hualli perpetuated through
> studies that haven't taken vowel length and "saltillo" into account, namely
> that one is a ma:ce:hualli because of one's deserving-ness.  This is because
> there is a verb mahce:hualtia: 'to give someone what s/he deserves.'  And
> there is actually a noun mahce:hualli meaning 'merit, recompense.'  But as
> you see, the 'deserving' words have a saltillo in the first syllable where
> the 'subject' words have a long vowel.
> 
> There is another colorful speculation on the root meaning of ma:ce:hualli
> (which I don't personally put any stock in), that it has to do with people
> who dance around in circles with their hands resting on their hips.  This
> etymology makes the word up from ma:- 'hand' and the verb ce:huia: 'to rest
> or relieve something (in this case, one's hands).
> 
> The way I see it, a society that is strictly divided into two parts, a
> ruling elite and a productive body of workers (as Mesoamerican societies
> were) needs a word for the ruling class (pi:piltin) and another for the
> subject people (ma:ce:hualtin), and why should we ask for more arcane
> underlying meanings?
> 
> Frances Karttunen



From micc at home.com  Wed Feb  9 02:18:01 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:18:01 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.191801.0700.>

I think that David was not referring to the actual ending of "ito"
coming from Nahuatl "tzin".  I think he meant the concept of
exquisiteness as a Mexican language trait,

Michael Mccafferty wrote:
> 
> The two rather seem to be independent creations. Spanish -ito/a seems to
> have a cognate form in French -et (m.) and -ette (f.) in French.
> Just an idea.
> 
> Michael
> 
> On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, David L. Frye wrote:
> 
> > > it would be interesting to see if the Tlaxcalteca honorific methodology
> > > of speaking to their elders has been transmitted to the modern Mexican
> > > Spanish spoken in the area.
> >
> > I have often thought that the ubiquitous use of "-ito" in Mexican Spanish
> > might be related to Nahuatl "-tzin" -- especially in cases where the
> > diminutive is rarely heard elsewhere in the Spanish-speaking world, such
> > as "nuestros difuntitos" or "mis muertitos" to refer to one's family dead.
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> >



From karttu at nantucket.net  Wed Feb  9 03:29:40 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 20:29:40 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.202940.0700.>

> thanks Francis!

Actually, it's Frances.  But I just go by Fran to avoid the masculine i vs.
feminine e confusion.
>
>
> Where can one purchase this booK  "Speaking Mexicano"????
>
> Amazon.com has it for sale, but it's expensive.  Try interlibrary loan for a
cheaper read.
> 



From karttu at nantucket.net  Wed Feb  9 03:40:01 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 20:40:01 -0700
Subject: trying to find the word for...
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.204001.0700.>

> Frances,
> 
> This is a very interesting analysis, especially for me since i am trying
> to find the root of macehauliztli, the dance ( as opposed to the more
> common understood mi'totiliztli and netotiliztli)
>
>
> Last year (or was it the year before) I hypothesized that mi'totia came
> from  i'toa, but I was proven wrong.  Can you tell me what you believe
> is the root of macehua (dancar in Molina) .
>

Sorry, but I have no idea.  It was J. Richard Andrews in his "Introduction
to Classical Nahuatl" who wrote about the "hand-resting" dance as a source
for ma:ce:hualli 'subject, commoner.'  Because Molina doesn't indicate vowel
length or saltillo, it's impossible to know whether the verb about dancing
is the same or different from the verb about deserving or the noun about
being a subject without additional information from other sources.  I don't
know where Andrews got such additional information (or if he did).



From micc at home.com  Wed Feb  9 04:00:21 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:00:21 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.210021.0700.>

So Sorry Fran!!!

an thanks for the info


mario




Frances Karttunen wrote:
> 
> > thanks Francis!
> 
> Actually, it's Frances.  But I just go by Fran to avoid the masculine i vs.
> feminine e confusion.
> >
> >
> > Where can one purchase this booK  "Speaking Mexicano"????
> >
> > Amazon.com has it for sale, but it's expensive.  Try interlibrary loan for a
> cheaper read.
> >



From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Wed Feb  9 05:11:41 2000
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 22:11:41 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.221141.0700.>

I picked up a copy of the Spanish versi�n at the Casa Chata (CIESAS) in
M�xico City.
	John Sullivan
	Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas

-----Mensaje original-----
De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]En
nombre de micc at home.com
Enviado el: Martes, 08 de Febrero de 2000 08:08 p.m.
Para: Multiple recipients of list
Asunto: Re: is it zin or tzin??

thanks Francis!


Where can one purchase this booK  "Speaking Mexicano"????




Frances Karttunen wrote:
>
> > Frances,
> >
> > it would be interesting to see if the Tlaxcalteca honorific methodology
> > of speaking to their elders has been transmitted to the modern Mexican
> > Spanish spoken in the area.
>
> Yes it has.  In all its complexity.
>
> But there are complicated forces at work. Some communities dispense with
the
> honorifics in the interest of community solidarity, and even in
> Puebla-Tlaxcala, language shift to Spanish looms.
>
> Jane and Ken Hill and Alberto Zepeda (of San Miguel Canoa) carried out a
> long-term study of Nahuatl language use in the Malinche volcano area and
> published it as a book titled "Speaking Mexicano."
>
> Albertohtzin has also team-taught with Joe Campbell and me, teaching those
> four levels of Malinche-area honorifics to quite a few other people from
the
> USA, Latin America, and even one from Africa.
>
> Fran


From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Wed Feb  9 05:22:02 2000
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 22:22:02 -0700
Subject: ma:ce:hualli
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.222202.0700.>

Chapulhuacanito, San Luis Potos�, macehualmeh quitoah "Nah nicamanaloa ca
nahuatl", uan Chicontepec, Veracruz, quitoah "Nah nizaniloa ca nahuatl".
	John Sullivan
	Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas

-----Mensaje original-----
De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]En
nombre de Ehecatecolotl
Enviado el: Martes, 08 de Febrero de 2000 10:21 p.m.
Para: Multiple recipients of list
Asunto: Re: ma:ce:hualli

Xinechmopohpolhuili, yeceh ya oniccac nican ompa Tenochtitlan nictlahtoa in
macehuallahtolli.

Tlazohcamati
Ehecatecolotl.


>Se dice: nitlahtoah macehualcopa, 'hablo mexicano'


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Feb  9 13:37:07 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 06:37:07 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.063707.0700.>

Thanks Frances, for the correction. My understanding about the saltillo is
that it represents a glottal stop, and that the glottal stop is present in
the singular present indicative and is not present in the plural.  Please
fill me in.

tlazohcamati,

Michael


From karttu at nantucket.net  Wed Feb  9 14:17:36 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:17:36 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.071736.0700.>

It's the opposite.  The saltillo functions as the plural marker in the
present indicative.

Verbs like tlahtoa: shorten the final vowel before saltillo and also when
the a: is word-final, so you never see/hear that it is long in the present
indicative.  But in the habitual present (that adds -ni) and the imperfect
(that adds -ya), the a: is long.

In the future, where the a: is dropped before the future suffix -z, the
vowel goes away but casts its length back on the preceding vowel.  Then you
do get o: as in nitlahto:z "I will speak."

Fran

----------
>From: Michael Mccafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: tlahtoa
>Date: Wed, Feb 9, 2000, 8:37 AM
>

>
> Thanks Frances, for the correction. My understanding about the saltillo is
> that it represents a glottal stop, and that the glottal stop is present in
> the singular present indicative and is not present in the plural.  Please
> fill me in.
>
> tlazohcamati,
>
> Michael
>


From JAikin at neh.gov  Wed Feb  9 15:31:39 2000
From: JAikin at neh.gov (Aikin, Jane (by way of "John F. Schwaller"
 <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>))
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:31:39 -0700
Subject: FW: NEH Fellowships
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.083139.0700.JAIKIN@NEH.GOV>

Jane Aikin
Senior Academic Advisor
NEH Fellowships


  NEH Fellowships, 2001-2002

  Deadline:  May 1, 2000

  The National Endowment for the Humanities announces the competition for
  Fellowships for 2001-2002.  These Fellowships provide opportunities for
  individuals to pursue advanced work in the humanities.  Applicants may be
  faculty or staff members of colleges or universities or of primary or
  secondary schools.  Scholars and writers working independently, in
  institutions such as museums, libraries, and historical associations, or
  in institutions with no connection to the humanities also are eligible to
  apply.

  NEH Fellowships support a variety of activities.  Projects may contribute
  to scholarly knowledge, to the advancement of teaching, or to the general
  public understanding of the humanities.  Award recipients might eventually
  produce scholarly articles, a book-length treatment of a broad topic, an
  archaeological site report, a translation, an edition, a database, or some
  other scholarly tool.

  CITIZENSHIP:  Applicants should be U.S.citizens, native residents of U.S.
  jurisdictions, or foreign nationals who have been legal residents in the
  U.S. or its jurisdictions for at least three years immediately preceding
  the application deadline.

  ELIGIBILITY:  The NEH Fellowships program has two categories: University
  Teachers and College Teachers/Independent Scholars.  Applicants select a
  category depending on the institution where they are  employed or on their
  status as Independent Scholars.  Applicants whose positions change near
  the application deadline should select the  category that corresponds to
  their employment status during the academic year before the deadline.
  Applicants whose professional training includes a degree program must have
  received the degree or completed all requirements for it by the
  application deadline.  Persons seeking support for work leading to a
  degree are not eligible to apply, nor are active candidates for degrees.
  Further information is available in the printed guidelines and on the
  Endowment's web site:  <http://www.neh.gov

  TENURE AND STIPENDS:  Tenure must cover an uninterrupted period of from
  six to twelve months.  The earliest beginning date is January 1, 2001, and
  the latest is the start of the spring term of the 2001-2002 academic term,
  or April 1, 2002 for those who are not teachers.  Tenure periods for
  teachers must include at least one complete term of the academic year.  A
  stipend of $30,000 will be awarded to those holding fellowships for a
  grant period of nine months to twelve months.  A stipend of $24,000 will
  be awarded to those holding fellowships for a grant period of six months
  to eight months.

  SUBMISSION OF APPLICATIONS: All applications must be postmarked on or
  before May 1, 2000.  Please note that the Endowment does not accept
  applications submitted by fax or e-mail.  Applicants will be notified of
  the decisions on their applications by mid-December 2000.

  NEW THIS YEAR:  The 2001-2002 guidelines include two important Fellowships
  program changes:
  1. Awardees are free to hold other major fellowships or grants
  concurrently with the NEH Fellowship.
  2. Recent fellowship holders will receive the same consideration as other
  applicants during the evaluation process.

  APPLICATION MATERIALS AND INFORMATION:

  Web:  <http://www.neh.gov

  Mail inquiries:               Fellowships
                        Division of Research Programs
                        National Endowment for the Humanities
                        1100 Pennsylvania Ave., N.W., Room 318
                        Washington, D.C. 20506

  Telephone:  202-606-8200

  E-mail:  fellowships at neh.gov


From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Wed Feb  9 15:39:23 2000
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:39:23 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.083923.0700.>

Fran,
Do we have to distinguish here between Classical and modern dialects?
As a fellow graduate of the "Joe Campbell school of Nahuatl," I was under the
same impression as Michael with regards to many(most?) modern dialects.
(Disclaimer: I take full responsibility for my ignorance and any stupid thing I
say should not reflect in any way upon Joe.)
It was my understanding that in Classical Nahuatl the saltillo functioned as the
plural marker in the present indicative and was written as an "h", but that in
many modern dialects it is the opposite: the saltillo marks the singular verbs
and a slight aspiration or nothing at all marks the plural. I think this is what
causes so much confusion when comparing classical orthography and modern speech
because if a modern speaker marks plurality with a slight aspiration, then the
"h" which represented a saltillo in Classical is taken for an aspiration. I
think this is what caused the confusion a while back on this list in regards to
the saltillo/glottal stop. I haven't had a lot of experience with native
speakers, but it seems to me that at least Tlaxcalan Nahuatl tends to aspirate
what was a glottal stop in Classical, and uses the glottal stop to mark the
singular indicative and other words that end in vowels without aspiration. If I
am correct, Classical orthography works very nicely with such modern dialects as
long as you reinterpret the h=saltillo as h=aspiration and you place a glottal
stop at the end of words that end in vowels. Is this an accurate assessment?
Galen

Frances Karttunen wrote:

> It's the opposite.  The saltillo functions as the plural marker in the
> present indicative.
>
> Verbs like tlahtoa: shorten the final vowel before saltillo and also when
> the a: is word-final, so you never see/hear that it is long in the present
> indicative.  But in the habitual present (that adds -ni) and the imperfect
> (that adds -ya), the a: is long.
>
> In the future, where the a: is dropped before the future suffix -z, the
> vowel goes away but casts its length back on the preceding vowel.  Then you
> do get o: as in nitlahto:z "I will speak."
>
> Fran
>
> ----------
> >From: Michael Mccafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> >To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: tlahtoa
> >Date: Wed, Feb 9, 2000, 8:37 AM
> >
>
> >
> > Thanks Frances, for the correction. My understanding about the saltillo is
> > that it represents a glottal stop, and that the glottal stop is present in
> > the singular present indicative and is not present in the plural.  Please
> > fill me in.
> >
> > tlazohcamati,
> >
> > Michael
> >


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Wed Feb  9 16:52:18 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:52:18 -0700
Subject: Speaking Mexicano
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.095218.0700.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

The Hill's book, Speaking mexicano, is available from the Arizona
University Press or your favorite bookstore.  Here is the info from Barnes
Noble:


 Speaking Mexicano: The Dynamics of Syncretic Language in Central Mexico
 In-Stock: Ships within 24 hours.
 Jane H. Hill,Kenneth C. Hill / Hardcover / University of Arizona Press /
May 1986
 Our Price: $39.20, You Save 30%


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Wed Feb  9 17:47:52 2000
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:47:52 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.104752.0700.>

Galen,

I think I remember that conversation also--that the modern final saltillo
tends to be aspirant, and I think part of the issue is what is the
saltillo.  To teach the saltillo to non-Nahuatl speakers, it is imperative
to emphasize clear glottal stops that emanate and terminate below the
mouth. Yet,I think it is Carochi who remarks that the Tlaxcaltecas aspirated the
glottal stop, and I imagine that a diversity of glottal stops have
existed historically in Nahuatl language communities.  So, I think the
main point about the saltillo is that it is not similar to Spanish, French
and English phonemes and has to be learned as an extra by most students
of Nahuatl , and perhaps has been unlearned in some parts by Nahuatl
speakers.

yours,
Mark

On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Galen Brokaw wrote:

> Fran,
> Do we have to distinguish here between Classical and modern dialects?
> As a fellow graduate of the "Joe Campbell school of Nahuatl," I was under the
> same impression as Michael with regards to many(most?) modern dialects.
> (Disclaimer: I take full responsibility for my ignorance and any stupid thing I
> say should not reflect in any way upon Joe.)
> It was my understanding that in Classical Nahuatl the saltillo functioned as the
> plural marker in the present indicative and was written as an "h", but that in
> many modern dialects it is the opposite: the saltillo marks the singular verbs
> and a slight aspiration or nothing at all marks the plural. I think this is what
> causes so much confusion when comparing classical orthography and modern speech
> because if a modern speaker marks plurality with a slight aspiration, then the
> "h" which represented a saltillo in Classical is taken for an aspiration. I
> think this is what caused the confusion a while back on this list in regards to
> the saltillo/glottal stop. I haven't had a lot of experience with native
> speakers, but it seems to me that at least Tlaxcalan Nahuatl tends to aspirate
> what was a glottal stop in Classical, and uses the glottal stop to mark the
> singular indicative and other words that end in vowels without aspiration. If I
> am correct, Classical orthography works very nicely with such modern dialects as
> long as you reinterpret the h=saltillo as h=aspiration and you place a glottal
> stop at the end of words that end in vowels. Is this an accurate assessment?
> Galen
>
> Frances Karttunen wrote:
>
> > It's the opposite.  The saltillo functions as the plural marker in the
> > present indicative.
> >
> > Verbs like tlahtoa: shorten the final vowel before saltillo and also when
> > the a: is word-final, so you never see/hear that it is long in the present
> > indicative.  But in the habitual present (that adds -ni) and the imperfect
> > (that adds -ya), the a: is long.
> >
> > In the future, where the a: is dropped before the future suffix -z, the
> > vowel goes away but casts its length back on the preceding vowel.  Then you
> > do get o: as in nitlahto:z "I will speak."
> >
> > Fran
> >
> > ----------
> > >From: Michael Mccafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> > >To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> > >Subject: Re: tlahtoa
> > >Date: Wed, Feb 9, 2000, 8:37 AM
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks Frances, for the correction. My understanding about the saltillo is
> > > that it represents a glottal stop, and that the glottal stop is present in
> > > the singular present indicative and is not present in the plural.  Please
> > > fill me in.
> > >
> > > tlazohcamati,
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
>



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
grief. Eccl 1:18

To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From heatherhess at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  9 17:58:28 2000
From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:58:28 -0700
Subject: mixiotes
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.105828.0700.>

hola ' i have to be fast!!!!!   i was at a woman��s house the other day and
had the most amazing cake i have ever tasted ' her name is veronica ' her
house is in tepatitlan ' you know ' near guadalajara.  at any rate i have
asked her for the recipe and am sure you will enjoy it too!!!!!!  mmmmm!!!!
mmmmm!  mmmmm!

veronica and a friend of mine have a small group of people that live in
tepatitlan and are learning italian.  eventually they want to go to italy.
i was bragging about you and told veronica i would connect the two of you!

i have carbon copied veronica as well!

heather

talk to you soon  ' my new name is Yoholotizn


>From: "marisol" <marisol at tiscalinet.it>
>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: mixiotes
>Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:21:27 -0700
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
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>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
>Hola Ivan,
>
>Los mixiotes que yo conozco son la tela que cubre la penca del maguey.
>Esta
>se pone a remojar para que ablande y sea flexible (alrededor de dos horas).
>Se corta en cuadros de 25 cms. aproximadamente.
>
>Me parece que esta receta es de Tlaxcala (yo no sabia que era de origen
>prehispanico!!)
>
>Bueno, pues se tuestan los chiles anchos, se desvenan y se ponen a remojar
>en caldo de carne.  Usando el mismo caldo se muelen junto con ajo, cebolla
>y
>almendra pelada.  Se sazona con sal y oregano.  Se corta la carne de
>carnero
>en pedazos pequenos y se pone a macerar en la salsa durante media hora.
>
>Se extienden las hojas de mixiote y a cada una se le pone una hoja de
>aguacate y la carne bien banada en salsa.  Se toman las puntas del mixiote
>jalandolas hacia arriba y se amarran formando bolsitas.  Se ponen a cocer
>al
>vapor.
>
>Perdon, pero no se darte cantidades.
>
>Espero que te sirva y te guste.
>
>Cordialmente,
>
>Susana Moraleda
>(una mexicana en Italia)
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: yo' daddy <elazteca at collegeclub.com>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Date: luned� 31 gennaio 2000 19.12
>Subject: mixiotes
>
>
> >Hello all @ nahuat-l:
> >I was woundering if anyone can fill me in on a pre-hispanic food called
> >"Mixiotes" (Ibelieve).  To the best of my understanding it is a Tamal
>like
> >eatable wrapped in Maguey leaves with Chicken (or other meat) and spices.
> >If anyone out there knows more, please share the knowledge.  Thank you so
> >much...
> >Ivan Ochoa
> >
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Why is College Club the largest and fastest growing college student site?
> >Find out for yourself at http://www.collegeclub.com
> >
> >
>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BF6C49.515B17C0
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>BEGIN:VCARD
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>N:Moraleda;Susana
>FN:Susana Moraleda
>EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
>REV:20000131T231311Z
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From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Wed Feb  9 20:28:34 2000
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:28:34 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.132834.0700.>

The saltillo spoken by the two native speakers from the Huasteca I work with
goes like this:
1. between two vowels it sounds just like an English "h": "ahacatl" = wind
2. between a vowel and a consonant it sounds like the saltillo described in
the classical grammars (Like Mark says : glottal stops that emanate and
terminate below the mouth): "ohtli" = road
3. at the end of a word it's a barely audible aspiration after the vowel:
"ticamanaloah" = we talk.

	John Sullivan
	Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas


From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Wed Feb  9 19:20:35 2000
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:20:35 -0700
Subject: Preclassic, classic and postclassic
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.122035.0700.>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF732B.B4BF7F20
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I have started a research on pre-Aztec history in central Mexico, and found
that each source I have consulted, gives different years for the division of
the pre-classic, classic and post-classic periods.

PRECLASSIC from 1500 BC till the start of AD? or till year 100? or till year
300?

CLASSIC from X above till 750, 800 or 900 AD?

POSTCLASSIC from X above till 1521?

Some other sources name an "ARCHAIC" period lasting till 1500 BC (?)

Is a consensus on this division?

I would be grateful if someone could enlighten me, and/or indicate which
reliable texts/web sites to consult.

Susana Moraleda



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BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
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FN:Susana Moraleda
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
REV:20000209T173013Z
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From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Wed Feb  9 21:49:46 2000
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 14:49:46 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.144946.0700.>

Hi John,
Ok, but isn't it misleading to call all of these phenomena "saltillo"?
The way I understand it, "saltillo" is the word in Spanish that refers to the
glottal stop ["a little jump"]. It seems to me that the rules that you list
below force the term "saltillo"[=glottal stop] to apply to all phenomena that
were glottal stops in Classical Nahuatl, but some of which have evolved and
turned into something else, such as an aspiration. I think this problem arises
from applying older linguistic descriptions to modern speech without taking into
account changes in pronunciation.
The best explanation for these changes that I have heard is that in Classical
Nahuatl the "saltillo" was actually a glottal stop followed by an aspiration
when the stop is released (kind of like a grunt, I guess). In some environments,
the glottal stop was lost leaving only an aspiration. Although Joe is my source
for this, I believe he heard it from another linguist. Of course, this doesn't
explain why the singular indicative marker would acquire the glottal stop where
it didn't exist before.
Getting back to the terminology, I would argue the following:
1. "saltillo" means "glottal stop"
2. Depending upon the modern dialect some/many/all sounds that were
saltillos/glottal stops in Classical have evolved (into aspirations, for
example), and therefore should no longer be described as saltillos/glottal
stops.

Galen

John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:

> The saltillo spoken by the two native speakers from the Huasteca I work with
> goes like this:
> 1. between two vowels it sounds just like an English "h": "ahacatl" = wind
> 2. between a vowel and a consonant it sounds like the saltillo described in
> the classical grammars (Like Mark says : glottal stops that emanate and
> terminate below the mouth): "ohtli" = road
> 3. at the end of a word it's a barely audible aspiration after the vowel:
> "ticamanaloah" = we talk.
>
>         John Sullivan
>         Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas


From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Thu Feb 10 00:52:42 2000
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:52:42 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.175242.0700.>

Galen,
	First of all, if I'm not mistaken, Carochi distiguishes between the
pronunciation of the word-internal and the word-final saltillo.  In other
words, saltillo refers not to a specific sound, but to a distinct linguistic
element whose sound may vary in different environments (I know there is a
word for this in linguistics: is it phoneme?  I can't remember.)  The
important thing is that this linguistic element (with its sound variations)
was used then and is still used now as the plural marker for the present
tense.  Its pronunciation may have evolved (although I'm not so sure), but
its function in this case is the same.
	I don't think what you hear at the end of the singular indicative is a
glottal stop.  This problem is precisely what called my attention to the
aspirated nature of the word final saltillo.  One of the native speakers I
work with (who is from Chapulhuacanito, municipio de Tamazunchale, San Luis
Potos�), pronounces what would standardly be considered a word final "i", as
an "e" (Spanish pronunciation reference).  Noting also that he uses a "t"
dialect, he would say, for example, "ayohte", instead of "ayohtli" for
calabaza.  The fun comes when a non-native speaker has to distinguish
between the singular and plural forms of preterite verbs.  Since he uses the
"old" singular marker, "-qui", which he pronounces "-que", we have for
example: "tinehnenque" = you walked, versus, "tinehnenqueh" = we walked.
When I first heard these two words, they sounded pretty much alike to me.
So I put my ear as close to my friends mouth as I could, and listened hard.
This is what I discovered.  First, the plural form ends with a barely
audible aspiration.  This is the saltillo.  The pronunciation of the vowel
which ends the singular form, terminates with a closing off of the throat.
But this is true of all word final vowels.  If they weren't pronounced this
way (with a definite end/closing of the throat), then air would escape the
mouth at the end of the pronunciation, and you will have added the saltillo.
(Which you don't want to do, unless that's really what you want to do,
right?)

	John Sullivan
	Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas

-----Mensaje original-----
De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]En
nombre de Galen Brokaw
Enviado el: Mi�rcoles, 09 de Febrero de 2000 03:50 p.m.
Para: Multiple recipients of list
Asunto: Re: tlahtoa / saltillo

Hi John,
Ok, but isn't it misleading to call all of these phenomena "saltillo"?
The way I understand it, "saltillo" is the word in Spanish that refers to
the
glottal stop ["a little jump"]. It seems to me that the rules that you list
below force the term "saltillo"[=glottal stop] to apply to all phenomena
that
were glottal stops in Classical Nahuatl, but some of which have evolved and
turned into something else, such as an aspiration. I think this problem
arises
from applying older linguistic descriptions to modern speech without taking
into
account changes in pronunciation.
The best explanation for these changes that I have heard is that in
Classical
Nahuatl the "saltillo" was actually a glottal stop followed by an aspiration
when the stop is released (kind of like a grunt, I guess). In some
environments,
the glottal stop was lost leaving only an aspiration. Although Joe is my
source
for this, I believe he heard it from another linguist. Of course, this
doesn't
explain why the singular indicative marker would acquire the glottal stop
where
it didn't exist before.
Getting back to the terminology, I would argue the following:
1. "saltillo" means "glottal stop"
2. Depending upon the modern dialect some/many/all sounds that were
saltillos/glottal stops in Classical have evolved (into aspirations, for
example), and therefore should no longer be described as saltillos/glottal
stops.

Galen

John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:

> The saltillo spoken by the two native speakers from the Huasteca I work
with
> goes like this:
> 1. between two vowels it sounds just like an English "h": "ahacatl" = wind
> 2. between a vowel and a consonant it sounds like the saltillo described
in
> the classical grammars (Like Mark says : glottal stops that emanate and
> terminate below the mouth): "ohtli" = road
> 3. at the end of a word it's a barely audible aspiration after the vowel:
> "ticamanaloah" = we talk.
>
>         John Sullivan
>         Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas


From micc at home.com  Thu Feb 10 05:46:57 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:46:57 -0700
Subject: Preclassic, classic and postclassic
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.224657.0700.>

Marisol,

the reason there is no consensus on what span of time the pre, classic,
and post, actually include is that not all areas fell into the "cultural
attributes" of these epochs.  for instance, although the Maya "classic
period" is said to end by the 800's A.D., some sites ended their
building programs earlier, and some went on into the "post classic"
period. Also, a great problem that many archeologists ignore when they
set the "starting dates" of eras, especially the pre-classic, is their
almost total absence of perishable materials (especially in the "olmeca
regions) that can be used to date the 'beginning" of a cultural
awakening.

  Who's is to say that the pre-classic did not start 2,000 earlier, with
nothing but wood, straw and paper utensils?  except for a few
discoveries, all we can judge by are the stone sculptures, and earthen
mounds that remain. I has always seemed to me that the "mysterious
olmeca" did not suddenly spring forth from the slimy steamy swamps of
tabasco and Veracruz.  They ahd to have had generations of empirical
evidence to create their writing, calendrical mastery, and religious
building blocks that later cultures would adopt and change.

imagine someone coming back from 3,000 years in the future. They could
say that judging but our current lack of using stone for building,
sculpture, and religious objects, the 20th century was a "dark age" in
human civilization....(and indeed it could be stated that it was judging
by WWWI and II, etc....) Not knowing of the perishable cultural
creations we have (paper or plastic?>>>>, virtual reality, imitation
mayonnaise, etc.)

basically the eras can be broken down into three general periods:

Pre-classic period:  "olmeca" Tres Zapotes, Monte Alban, Tlatilco,
Piedras negras, etc.

classic: Kaminaljuyu, Teotihucancan, Tikal, Palenque, Monete Alban,
Copan, Etc.

Post Classic: chichen Itza, Tajin, Cholula, Tollan-Xicocotitlan,
Azcapotzalco, Cacaxtla, Mayapan, Tulum, Tenochtitlan.


As any amateur ( the the full french sense of the word) can see, the
dates for these great and nobel sites overlap in many cases.  Even
though Teotihuacan was "abandoned" at the end of the classic period,
research shows that there were still people living in the city in
"toltec" times.  monte Alban stretches from pre-classic to Spanish
times.

In a crude and simplistic sense I would (and I probably will generate a
lot of "empty can mail" for this, but oh well...)
say that the pre-classic era was an era of local chiefdoms becoming city
states; writing was developed; and the pan-mesoamerican form of religion
was coalesced ( that is not to imply that there was a homogenous
"mesoamerican religion.  instead what I see is a "common denominator" of
imagery, venus worship ( as the Tlaloc-Quetzalcoatl cult) and human
sacrifice (here we go again!!!)

the classic was a period of state control of trade, religion, ritual
warfare, and a high level of mathmatics, egineering, artistic, and
literary development. It was also a time of serious and terminal
ecological destruction.

the post classic period was a time of "chichimec" intrusions into the
Mesoamerican world view. The Tlaloc-quetzalcoatl duality was replaced by
the tlaloc huitzilopochtli cult of the Mexi'ca   (of course this was not
the case everywhere!!) classic period institutions were transformed from
king based states to military-theocracies, The knowledge of the past was
religiously kept alive, memorized, and ritualized into mythology,
separate form its original historical relavence (Remember Tlacaelel
buring the ancient books with the 'truth" he did not want the Mexi'ca
people to know??). The "Toltec" lineage became of paramount authority in
highland maya ruling houses as well as in Chichen Itza (here is another
field of landmines!!), and of course in Anahuac where the Mexi'ca
systematically intermarried into the "cuhua" families of Culhuacan so
they could claim toltec blood.

Finally, it appears that the pochteca class was creating a powerbase
that transcended national boundires, since only they had the experitse
and contacts to bring elite goods form one area to another.


Anyway I will quit now, lest I be accused of pontificating again....:)





marisol wrote:
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF732B.B4BF7F20
> Content-Type: text/plain;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> I have started a research on pre-Aztec history in central Mexico, and found
> that each source I have consulted, gives different years for the division of
> the pre-classic, classic and post-classic periods.
>
> PRECLASSIC from 1500 BC till the start of AD? or till year 100? or till year
> 300?
>
> CLASSIC from X above till 750, 800 or 900 AD?
>
> POSTCLASSIC from X above till 1521?
>
> Some other sources name an "ARCHAIC" period lasting till 1500 BC (?)
>
> Is a consensus on this division?
>
> I would be grateful if someone could enlighten me, and/or indicate which
> reliable texts/web sites to consult.
>
> Susana Moraleda
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF732B.B4BF7F20
> Content-Type: text/x-vcard;
>         name="Susana Moraleda.vcf"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Disposition: attachment;
>         filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf"
>
> BEGIN:VCARD
> VERSION:2.1
> N:Moraleda;Susana
> FN:Susana Moraleda
> EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
> REV:20000209T173013Z
> END:VCARD
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF732B.B4BF7F20--


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Feb 10 11:53:00 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 04:53:00 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.045300.0700.>

On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:

> The saltillo spoken by the two native speakers from the Huasteca I work w=
ith
> goes like this:
> 1. between two vowels it sounds just like an English "h": "ahacatl" =3D w=
ind
> 2. between a vowel and a consonant it sounds like the saltillo described =
in
> the classical grammars (Like Mark says : glottal stops that emanate and
> terminate below the mouth): "ohtli" =3D road
> 3. at the end of a word it's a barely audible aspiration after the vowel:
> "ticamanaloah" =3D we talk.

John, does no. 3 go for both singular and plural?

Thanks,
Michael

>=20
> =09John Sullivan
> =09Universidad Aut=F3noma de Zacatecas
>=20
>=20
>=20


From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Thu Feb 10 16:05:53 2000
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:05:53 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.090553.0700.>

John,
I have to respectfully disagree. The linguistic terms you refer to are
phoneme and allophone. The phoneme is the phonetic element which may have
various allophones depending on the environment. In Spanish, for example,
the phoneme /n/ is pronounced one way when it is intervocalic and another
when it is followed by a [g] or [c] and another when followed by [t], etc.
The way you determine whether or not two sounds are separate phonemes or
allophones of the same phoneme is to try and find two different words that
are exactly the same except for the two sounds in question. If two such
words exist, then the sounds are separate phonemes. I don't have enough
experience to be able to make judgments about all modern dialects of
Nahuatl, but my impression is that the aspiration and the glottal stop are
two separate phonemes. I would support this by providing a contrastive
pair of words consisting of the singular and plural of the indicative.
Now, John, I know that you disagree that the singular ending of the
indicative is a glottal stop. It is tough to argue these kind of things
over email without the benefit of speech, and you have more access to
native informants than I do, but I still think that what you describe as a
closing off of the throat is a glottal stop. And I disagree that all words
in any language must end by closing off the throat. In English when we
pronounce a word that ends in a vowel, we don't close off the throat at
the end. The word "go" for example doesn't end by abruptly interrupting
the vibration of the vocal chords by closing off the throat. The vocal
chords just quit vibrating and we cease to expel air. Glottal stop is
defined precisely as a closing off of the throat using the glottis and
consequently an abrupt stopping of vocal chord vibration. The native
speaker with whom I have had experience had a very clear glottal stop at
the end of verbs in the indicative singular. The difficulty I had was in
determining if there was an aspiration at the end of the plural or not. I
like to think there was a faint aspiration just as you have noted in the
speech of Huastecan Nahuatl. So, if this is the case, then we have a
contrastive pair in the third person singular and third person plural
indicative verbs such as quicua [kwa?] and quicuah [kwah] where the
[?]=3Dglottal stop. (The phonetic symbol is actually an upside down questio=
n
mark with no dot, but I can't make that go through on the email.) I
conclude therefore that the glottal stop and the aspiration are two
separate phonemes.
I submit this argument humbly and ask any of the professional linguists to
correct my reasoning if it is flawed.
Galen=20
=20

On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:

> Galen,
> =09First of all, if I'm not mistaken, Carochi distiguishes between the
> pronunciation of the word-internal and the word-final saltillo.  In other
> words, saltillo refers not to a specific sound, but to a distinct linguis=
tic
> element whose sound may vary in different environments (I know there is a
> word for this in linguistics: is it phoneme?  I can't remember.)  The
> important thing is that this linguistic element (with its sound variation=
s)
> was used then and is still used now as the plural marker for the present
> tense.  Its pronunciation may have evolved (although I'm not so sure), bu=
t
> its function in this case is the same.
> =09I don't think what you hear at the end of the singular indicative is a
> glottal stop.  This problem is precisely what called my attention to the
> aspirated nature of the word final saltillo.  One of the native speakers =
I
> work with (who is from Chapulhuacanito, municipio de Tamazunchale, San Lu=
is
> Potos=ED), pronounces what would standardly be considered a word final "i=
", as
> an "e" (Spanish pronunciation reference).  Noting also that he uses a "t"
> dialect, he would say, for example, "ayohte", instead of "ayohtli" for
> calabaza.  The fun comes when a non-native speaker has to distinguish
> between the singular and plural forms of preterite verbs.  Since he uses =
the
> "old" singular marker, "-qui", which he pronounces "-que", we have for
> example: "tinehnenque" =3D you walked, versus, "tinehnenqueh" =3D we walk=
ed.
> When I first heard these two words, they sounded pretty much alike to me.
> So I put my ear as close to my friends mouth as I could, and listened har=
d.
> This is what I discovered.  First, the plural form ends with a barely
> audible aspiration.  This is the saltillo.  The pronunciation of the vowe=
l
> which ends the singular form, terminates with a closing off of the throat=
=2E
> But this is true of all word final vowels.  If they weren't pronounced th=
is
> way (with a definite end/closing of the throat), then air would escape th=
e
> mouth at the end of the pronunciation, and you will have added the saltil=
lo.
> (Which you don't want to do, unless that's really what you want to do,
> right?)
>=20
> =09John Sullivan


From dfrye at umich.edu  Thu Feb 10 17:11:49 2000
From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:11:49 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.101149.0700.>

> in any language must end by closing off the throat. In English when we
> pronounce a word that ends in a vowel, we don't close off the throat at
> the end. The word "go" for example doesn't end by abruptly interrupting
> the vibration of the vocal chords by closing off the throat.

But when Homer Simpson says "Doh!" he does end it with a glottal stop, no?
Just checking -- i'm no linguist, much as I admire ya'll!

David Frye <dfrye at umich.edu>


From smnorris at fas.harvard.edu  Thu Feb 10 17:43:10 2000
From: smnorris at fas.harvard.edu (Susan Norris)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:43:10 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.104310.0700.>

Just a quick note regarding Fran Kartunnen's "Rethinking Malinche.I
used this article this week in my UG Latin American History class, and it
generated quite a bit of interest from my normally very passive students.
I work at a women's college, and while they really enjoyed Kartunnen's
insightful analysis, I really enjoyed the ensuing debate and discovery.
Thanks, listeros, for bringing it to my attention.

Sincerely,

Susan Norris
Asst. Professor of History and Sociology
Marymount College


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Feb 10 18:07:28 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:07:28 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.110728.0700.>

YES! that is a glottal stop. English speakers don't do it after every
utterance that ends in a vowel, however. Standard German speakers do do it
with every utterance that begins with a vowel. Galen's comments were quite
correct as to the nature of the beast. It is a common phoneme throughout
Indian languages in North America (no kudos, Dr, Greenberg!),

Best,
Michael


On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, David L. Frye wrote:

> > in any language must end by closing off the throat. In English when we
> > pronounce a word that ends in a vowel, we don't close off the throat at
> > the end. The word "go" for example doesn't end by abruptly interrupting
> > the vibration of the vocal chords by closing off the throat.
>
> But when Homer Simpson says "Doh!" he does end it with a glottal stop, no?
> Just checking -- i'm no linguist, much as I admire ya'll!
>
> David Frye <dfrye at umich.edu>
>
>


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Feb 10 19:13:44 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:13:44 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.121344.0700.>

On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu wrote:

> The difficulty I had was in
> determining if there was an aspiration at the end of the plural or not. I
> like to think there was a faint aspiration just as you have noted in the
> speech of Huastecan Nahuatl. So, if this is the case, then we have a
> contrastive pair in the third person singular and third person plural
> indicative verbs such as quicua [kwa?] and quicuah [kwah] where the
> [?]=3Dglottal stop.

Joe is off-line at the present, but as I remember his teaching it,
Hueyapan Nahuatl distinguished between singular and plural in the way
Galen describes above:  [kwa?] or as Joe wrote it [kwa'] 'heshe eats'  and
[kwah] 'they eat'.  It would be interesting to know if other modern
dialects distinguish the two by making such a minimal pair.

Michael


From clayton at indiana.edu  Thu Feb 10 19:57:23 2000
From: clayton at indiana.edu (Mary Clayton)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:57:23 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.125723.0700.>

Galen,
     I think you've given an admirable account of the concept of
phonemes and allophones. I think that the 'disagreement' here may actually
involve an unstated assumption, which doesn't directly involve 'fact', but
(as is usual in linguistics at all levels of analysis -- even phonetics)
*interpretation* of fact.
     I think that the question that one would need to ask is: Is there any
*third* way for words to end [that don't end in other consonants, of
course]? That is, do the h and the glottal stop form a three-way contrast
with a simple final vowel which is followed by NEITHER of these? Because a
(not unreasonable) linguistic assumption might be that one of these is
distinctive (as are other consonants) while the other just marks its
absence, that is, just draws special attention to the fact that the word
in question ends in a vowel rather than glottal stop (or h, depending on
which way you want to argue). Seen this way, the question would be: Can
words end in
      -h,
      -? ( = glottal stop)
      -C ( = any consonant other than glottal stop)
      or -V (= any vowel)?

Or are the choices just
      -h and -V as "allophones"
      -?
      -C

or    -? and -V as "allophones"
      -h
      -C

     Most people take a historical position on this question, calling the
[historical] glottal stop a 'glottal stop' or 'saltillo' regardless of
whether it is pronounced as [h] or [?] in the dialect in question.
Whichever the pronunciation, this segment shows up in the morphologically
expected places, which is one reason to keep the name the same even
thought the pronunciation of presnest-day dialects may differ.
     A way to 'explain' the modern distribution of sounds for those
dialects which have  *real* glottal stops in the singular is that
the *historical* glottal stop has > [h], and the *new* glottal stop just
signals its absence. Taken too literally, this sounds like double-talk, of
course: [?] = nothing and [h] = glottal stop, but it's a natural way of
thinking for people who work with both classical and modern.


     Let me mention two personal observations which are relevant to the
issue, and certainly don't make it any simpler:

     -- One of Joe's young friends (from Oapan) who is heavily
Nahuatl-dominant, when speaking Spanish very frequently ends vowel-final
words with a glottal stop. Spanish "si/" is [si?] and "no" is [no?]. I
don't think he's exceptional. He's just the one I've heard the most (on
tape -- his tapes frequently accompany us on car trips.)

     -- There is a characteristic of general Mexican Spanish which may
play a part in the confusion. I'm talking about Mexican speakers who know
no Nahuatl, many of whom have probably had little or no exposure to it. My
Caribbean-hearing ear (I'm from Tampa and grew up around Cuban-type
Spanish) hears enough trailing-off of voice at the end of vowel-final
words in Mexican Spanish to qualify them for -s final words in Cuban.
That is to say, many pronunciations of singular nouns would be heard as
plurals by people who turn s > h, and third-singular verbs sound like
tu-forms.  But Mexicans don't *mean* or *intend* this 'aspiration', it's
just the way they frequently pronounce vowels in final positions.
     This may well influence the way 'outsiders' who are very familiar
with Mexican Spanish, whether native spekers or not, perceive final vowels
or final -h's in Nahuatl. I'll stop short of speculating what effect it
may have on Nahuatl speakers.


Mary

On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu wrote:

>
> John,
> I have to respectfully disagree. The linguistic terms you refer to are
> phoneme and allophone. The phoneme is the phonetic element which may have
> various allophones depending on the environment. In Spanish, for example,
> the phoneme /n/ is pronounced one way when it is intervocalic and another
> when it is followed by a [g] or [c] and another when followed by [t], etc.
> The way you determine whether or not two sounds are separate phonemes or
> allophones of the same phoneme is to try and find two different words that
> are exactly the same except for the two sounds in question. If two such
> words exist, then the sounds are separate phonemes. I don't have enough
> experience to be able to make judgments about all modern dialects of
> Nahuatl, but my impression is that the aspiration and the glottal stop are
> two separate phonemes. I would support this by providing a contrastive
> pair of words consisting of the singular and plural of the indicative.
> Now, John, I know that you disagree that the singular ending of the
> indicative is a glottal stop. It is tough to argue these kind of things
> over email without the benefit of speech, and you have more access to
> native informants than I do, but I still think that what you describe as a
> closing off of the throat is a glottal stop. And I disagree that all words
> in any language must end by closing off the throat. In English when we
> pronounce a word that ends in a vowel, we don't close off the throat at
> the end. The word "go" for example doesn't end by abruptly interrupting
> the vibration of the vocal chords by closing off the throat. The vocal
> chords just quit vibrating and we cease to expel air. Glottal stop is
> defined precisely as a closing off of the throat using the glottis and
> consequently an abrupt stopping of vocal chord vibration. The native
> speaker with whom I have had experience had a very clear glottal stop at
> the end of verbs in the indicative singular. The difficulty I had was in
> determining if there was an aspiration at the end of the plural or not. I
> like to think there was a faint aspiration just as you have noted in the
> speech of Huastecan Nahuatl. So, if this is the case, then we have a
> contrastive pair in the third person singular and third person plural
> indicative verbs such as quicua [kwa?] and quicuah [kwah] where the
> [?]=3Dglottal stop. (The phonetic symbol is actually an upside down questio=
> n
> mark with no dot, but I can't make that go through on the email.) I
> conclude therefore that the glottal stop and the aspiration are two
> separate phonemes.
> I submit this argument humbly and ask any of the professional linguists to
> correct my reasoning if it is flawed.
> Galen=20


From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Thu Feb 10 20:41:03 2000
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:41:03 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.134103.0700.>

Michael pointed out to me that the phonetic symbol for a glottal stop is an
upside-right question mark without the dot. Sorry for the mistake. I'm really
rusty with those symbols.
David, thank you for the English glottal stop example. It is a good one. Also, I

think that Bart aspirates a little before the stop.
Galen


From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Thu Feb 10 22:23:29 2000
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:23:29 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.152329.0700.>

Mary,
Thank you for your comments. As I was writing my response to John's message, I
realized that if all vowel final words ended in a glottal stop and that was the
only place it appeared, then this might present a problem in my analysis. But I
didn't take the next step and articulate for myself the reasons. If I understand
you then, in a dialect in which words can only end in -?, -h, and -C, the glottal
stop /?/ really has no phonemic value because it is kind of a default for vowel
final words. It would have phonetic value, but only as part of an allophone of
whatever vowel the word ended with.
I also see the utility in maintaining the vocabulary saltillo/glottal stop to
refer to the /h/ eventhough it was originally a /?/, but it just seems so
misleading if you don't include a qualification explaining the difference between
Classical and modern dialects.
I guess part/most of my disagreement with John had to do with this issue of the
semantics of "saltillo". If most people use the term to refer to the modern /h/, I
guess maybe I can conform.
John, Mary has started to sway me to the dark side. :-)
Galen


Mary Clayton wrote:

> Galen,
>      I think you've given an admirable account of the concept of
> phonemes and allophones. I think that the 'disagreement' here may actually
> involve an unstated assumption, which doesn't directly involve 'fact', but
> (as is usual in linguistics at all levels of analysis -- even phonetics)
> *interpretation* of fact.
>      I think that the question that one would need to ask is: Is there any
> *third* way for words to end [that don't end in other consonants, of
> course]? That is, do the h and the glottal stop form a three-way contrast
> with a simple final vowel which is followed by NEITHER of these? Because a
> (not unreasonable) linguistic assumption might be that one of these is
> distinctive (as are other consonants) while the other just marks its
> absence, that is, just draws special attention to the fact that the word
> in question ends in a vowel rather than glottal stop (or h, depending on
> which way you want to argue). Seen this way, the question would be: Can
> words end in
>       -h,
>       -? ( = glottal stop)
>       -C ( = any consonant other than glottal stop)
>       or -V (= any vowel)?
>
> Or are the choices just
>       -h and -V as "allophones"
>       -?
>       -C
>
> or    -? and -V as "allophones"
>       -h
>       -C
>
>      Most people take a historical position on this question, calling the
> [historical] glottal stop a 'glottal stop' or 'saltillo' regardless of
> whether it is pronounced as [h] or [?] in the dialect in question.
> Whichever the pronunciation, this segment shows up in the morphologically
> expected places, which is one reason to keep the name the same even
> thought the pronunciation of presnest-day dialects may differ.
>      A way to 'explain' the modern distribution of sounds for those
> dialects which have  *real* glottal stops in the singular is that
> the *historical* glottal stop has > [h], and the *new* glottal stop just
> signals its absence. Taken too literally, this sounds like double-talk, of
> course: [?] = nothing and [h] = glottal stop, but it's a natural way of
> thinking for people who work with both classical and modern.
>
>      Let me mention two personal observations which are relevant to the
> issue, and certainly don't make it any simpler:
>
>      -- One of Joe's young friends (from Oapan) who is heavily
> Nahuatl-dominant, when speaking Spanish very frequently ends vowel-final
> words with a glottal stop. Spanish "si/" is [si?] and "no" is [no?]. I
> don't think he's exceptional. He's just the one I've heard the most (on
> tape -- his tapes frequently accompany us on car trips.)
>
>      -- There is a characteristic of general Mexican Spanish which may
> play a part in the confusion. I'm talking about Mexican speakers who know
> no Nahuatl, many of whom have probably had little or no exposure to it. My
> Caribbean-hearing ear (I'm from Tampa and grew up around Cuban-type
> Spanish) hears enough trailing-off of voice at the end of vowel-final
> words in Mexican Spanish to qualify them for -s final words in Cuban.
> That is to say, many pronunciations of singular nouns would be heard as
> plurals by people who turn s > h, and third-singular verbs sound like
> tu-forms.  But Mexicans don't *mean* or *intend* this 'aspiration', it's
> just the way they frequently pronounce vowels in final positions.
>      This may well influence the way 'outsiders' who are very familiar
> with Mexican Spanish, whether native spekers or not, perceive final vowels
> or final -h's in Nahuatl. I'll stop short of speculating what effect it
> may have on Nahuatl speakers.
>
> Mary
>


From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Thu Feb 10 22:34:04 2000
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:34:04 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.153404.0700.>

Galen,
I'm sorry for the lack of precision with my terminology, but I'm not a
linguist and the last course I took in linguistics was about 20 years ago.
However, my lay description of the phoneme/allophone distinction was
correct, although we disagree on its applicability in this case.  Moving
along, when I wrote, "The pronunciation of the vowel which ends the singular
form, terminates with a closing off of the throat.  But this is true of all
word final vowels," what I should have said was, "this is true of all word
final vowels in Nahuatl."  I never meant to refer to "all languages.  With
this said, I agree with Mary's suggestion that the closing off of the throat
after word final vowels in Nahuatl MIGHT only mark the absence of the
saltillo. Don't you think it's a bit suspect that the only criterion for
distinction between the two phonemes you postulate (glottal stop and
aspiration) is in the case of singular vs. plural?  O are you aware of any
word-internal distinctive pairs which contrast the glottal stop and the
aspiration?
	John Sullivan
	Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas

-----Mensaje original-----
De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]En
nombre de Mary Clayton
Enviado el: Jueves, 10 de Febrero de 2000 01:57 p.m.
Para: Multiple recipients of list
Asunto: RE: tlahtoa / saltillo

Galen,
     I think you've given an admirable account of the concept of
phonemes and allophones. I think that the 'disagreement' here may actually
involve an unstated assumption, which doesn't directly involve 'fact', but
(as is usual in linguistics at all levels of analysis -- even phonetics)
*interpretation* of fact.
     I think that the question that one would need to ask is: Is there any
*third* way for words to end [that don't end in other consonants, of
course]? That is, do the h and the glottal stop form a three-way contrast
with a simple final vowel which is followed by NEITHER of these? Because a
(not unreasonable) linguistic assumption might be that one of these is
distinctive (as are other consonants) while the other just marks its
absence, that is, just draws special attention to the fact that the word
in question ends in a vowel rather than glottal stop (or h, depending on
which way you want to argue). Seen this way, the question would be: Can
words end in
      -h,
      -? ( = glottal stop)
      -C ( = any consonant other than glottal stop)
      or -V (= any vowel)?

Or are the choices just
      -h and -V as "allophones"
      -?
      -C

or    -? and -V as "allophones"
      -h
      -C

     Most people take a historical position on this question, calling the
[historical] glottal stop a 'glottal stop' or 'saltillo' regardless of
whether it is pronounced as [h] or [?] in the dialect in question.
Whichever the pronunciation, this segment shows up in the morphologically
expected places, which is one reason to keep the name the same even
thought the pronunciation of presnest-day dialects may differ.
     A way to 'explain' the modern distribution of sounds for those
dialects which have  *real* glottal stops in the singular is that
the *historical* glottal stop has > [h], and the *new* glottal stop just
signals its absence. Taken too literally, this sounds like double-talk, of
course: [?] = nothing and [h] = glottal stop, but it's a natural way of
thinking for people who work with both classical and modern.


     Let me mention two personal observations which are relevant to the
issue, and certainly don't make it any simpler:

     -- One of Joe's young friends (from Oapan) who is heavily
Nahuatl-dominant, when speaking Spanish very frequently ends vowel-final
words with a glottal stop. Spanish "si/" is [si?] and "no" is [no?]. I
don't think he's exceptional. He's just the one I've heard the most (on
tape -- his tapes frequently accompany us on car trips.)

     -- There is a characteristic of general Mexican Spanish which may
play a part in the confusion. I'm talking about Mexican speakers who know
no Nahuatl, many of whom have probably had little or no exposure to it. My
Caribbean-hearing ear (I'm from Tampa and grew up around Cuban-type
Spanish) hears enough trailing-off of voice at the end of vowel-final
words in Mexican Spanish to qualify them for -s final words in Cuban.
That is to say, many pronunciations of singular nouns would be heard as
plurals by people who turn s > h, and third-singular verbs sound like
tu-forms.  But Mexicans don't *mean* or *intend* this 'aspiration', it's
just the way they frequently pronounce vowels in final positions.
     This may well influence the way 'outsiders' who are very familiar
with Mexican Spanish, whether native spekers or not, perceive final vowels
or final -h's in Nahuatl. I'll stop short of speculating what effect it
may have on Nahuatl speakers.


Mary

On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu wrote:

>
> John,
> I have to respectfully disagree. The linguistic terms you refer to are
> phoneme and allophone. The phoneme is the phonetic element which may have
> various allophones depending on the environment. In Spanish, for example,
> the phoneme /n/ is pronounced one way when it is intervocalic and another
> when it is followed by a [g] or [c] and another when followed by [t], etc.
> The way you determine whether or not two sounds are separate phonemes or
> allophones of the same phoneme is to try and find two different words that
> are exactly the same except for the two sounds in question. If two such
> words exist, then the sounds are separate phonemes. I don't have enough
> experience to be able to make judgments about all modern dialects of
> Nahuatl, but my impression is that the aspiration and the glottal stop are
> two separate phonemes. I would support this by providing a contrastive
> pair of words consisting of the singular and plural of the indicative.
> Now, John, I know that you disagree that the singular ending of the
> indicative is a glottal stop. It is tough to argue these kind of things
> over email without the benefit of speech, and you have more access to
> native informants than I do, but I still think that what you describe as a
> closing off of the throat is a glottal stop. And I disagree that all words
> in any language must end by closing off the throat. In English when we
> pronounce a word that ends in a vowel, we don't close off the throat at
> the end. The word "go" for example doesn't end by abruptly interrupting
> the vibration of the vocal chords by closing off the throat. The vocal
> chords just quit vibrating and we cease to expel air. Glottal stop is
> defined precisely as a closing off of the throat using the glottis and
> consequently an abrupt stopping of vocal chord vibration. The native
> speaker with whom I have had experience had a very clear glottal stop at
> the end of verbs in the indicative singular. The difficulty I had was in
> determining if there was an aspiration at the end of the plural or not. I
> like to think there was a faint aspiration just as you have noted in the
> speech of Huastecan Nahuatl. So, if this is the case, then we have a
> contrastive pair in the third person singular and third person plural
> indicative verbs such as quicua [kwa?] and quicuah [kwah] where the
> [?]=3Dglottal stop. (The phonetic symbol is actually an upside down
questio=
> n
> mark with no dot, but I can't make that go through on the email.) I
> conclude therefore that the glottal stop and the aspiration are two
> separate phonemes.
> I submit this argument humbly and ask any of the professional linguists to
> correct my reasoning if it is flawed.
> Galen=20


From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Fri Feb 11 01:27:44 2000
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:27:44 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.182744.0700.>

John,
You are right. I think my last email crossed with yours in cyberspace. In the
dialects we are discussing, the glottal stop is not a phoneme. But the closing
off of the throat is a nonphonemic glottal stop which occurs at the end of vowel
final words. I think that was the original issue that Fran's post raised in my
mind. So, if I may sum up here just to see if we are all on the same page. And
please Fran, Mary, John, et al please correct me if I'm wrong:
1. The saltillo was a glottal stop in Classical (I know that from what John has
said he may disagree with this)
2. In many (most?) modern dialects the glottal stop evolved into an aspiration
/h/
3. In these dialects the glottal stop is no longer a phoneme but exists as a
phonetic characteristic of world final vowels.
4. In these modern dialects, the indicative singular verbs end with this
nonphonemic glottal stop
5. In Classical, the indicative plural verbs ended with a glottal stop, which
was referred to as a saltillo (see #1)
6. In these modern dialects, the Classical saltillo of the indicative plural
verbs has evolved into an aspiration /h/ (see #2 and #5).
7. Most linguists continue to refer to the modern /h/ as a saltillo/glottal stop
for historical reasons even though phonetically it is not.

I do have one question for those who may know. Are there differences of opinion
among linguists about what the saltillo was phonetically in Classical Nahuatl?
Also, I should say that although this discussion may seem pedantic to many, it
has been very informative for me and I appreciate the dialogue with John,
Michael, and Mary.
Galen



John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:

> Galen,
> I'm sorry for the lack of precision with my terminology, but I'm not a
> linguist and the last course I took in linguistics was about 20 years ago.
> However, my lay description of the phoneme/allophone distinction was
> correct, although we disagree on its applicability in this case.  Moving
> along, when I wrote, "The pronunciation of the vowel which ends the singular
> form, terminates with a closing off of the throat.  But this is true of all
> word final vowels," what I should have said was, "this is true of all word
> final vowels in Nahuatl."  I never meant to refer to "all languages.  With
> this said, I agree with Mary's suggestion that the closing off of the throat
> after word final vowels in Nahuatl MIGHT only mark the absence of the
> saltillo. Don't you think it's a bit suspect that the only criterion for
> distinction between the two phonemes you postulate (glottal stop and
> aspiration) is in the case of singular vs. plural?  O are you aware of any
> word-internal distinctive pairs which contrast the glottal stop and the
> aspiration?
>         John Sullivan
>         Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]En
> nombre de Mary Clayton
> Enviado el: Jueves, 10 de Febrero de 2000 01:57 p.m.
> Para: Multiple recipients of list
> Asunto: RE: tlahtoa / saltillo
>
> Galen,
>      I think you've given an admirable account of the concept of
> phonemes and allophones. I think that the 'disagreement' here may actually
> involve an unstated assumption, which doesn't directly involve 'fact', but
> (as is usual in linguistics at all levels of analysis -- even phonetics)
> *interpretation* of fact.
>      I think that the question that one would need to ask is: Is there any
> *third* way for words to end [that don't end in other consonants, of
> course]? That is, do the h and the glottal stop form a three-way contrast
> with a simple final vowel which is followed by NEITHER of these? Because a
> (not unreasonable) linguistic assumption might be that one of these is
> distinctive (as are other consonants) while the other just marks its
> absence, that is, just draws special attention to the fact that the word
> in question ends in a vowel rather than glottal stop (or h, depending on
> which way you want to argue). Seen this way, the question would be: Can
> words end in
>       -h,
>       -? ( = glottal stop)
>       -C ( = any consonant other than glottal stop)
>       or -V (= any vowel)?
>
> Or are the choices just
>       -h and -V as "allophones"
>       -?
>       -C
>
> or    -? and -V as "allophones"
>       -h
>       -C
>
>      Most people take a historical position on this question, calling the
> [historical] glottal stop a 'glottal stop' or 'saltillo' regardless of
> whether it is pronounced as [h] or [?] in the dialect in question.
> Whichever the pronunciation, this segment shows up in the morphologically
> expected places, which is one reason to keep the name the same even
> thought the pronunciation of presnest-day dialects may differ.
>      A way to 'explain' the modern distribution of sounds for those
> dialects which have  *real* glottal stops in the singular is that
> the *historical* glottal stop has > [h], and the *new* glottal stop just
> signals its absence. Taken too literally, this sounds like double-talk, of
> course: [?] = nothing and [h] = glottal stop, but it's a natural way of
> thinking for people who work with both classical and modern.
>
>      Let me mention two personal observations which are relevant to the
> issue, and certainly don't make it any simpler:
>
>      -- One of Joe's young friends (from Oapan) who is heavily
> Nahuatl-dominant, when speaking Spanish very frequently ends vowel-final
> words with a glottal stop. Spanish "si/" is [si?] and "no" is [no?]. I
> don't think he's exceptional. He's just the one I've heard the most (on
> tape -- his tapes frequently accompany us on car trips.)
>
>      -- There is a characteristic of general Mexican Spanish which may
> play a part in the confusion. I'm talking about Mexican speakers who know
> no Nahuatl, many of whom have probably had little or no exposure to it. My
> Caribbean-hearing ear (I'm from Tampa and grew up around Cuban-type
> Spanish) hears enough trailing-off of voice at the end of vowel-final
> words in Mexican Spanish to qualify them for -s final words in Cuban.
> That is to say, many pronunciations of singular nouns would be heard as
> plurals by people who turn s > h, and third-singular verbs sound like
> tu-forms.  But Mexicans don't *mean* or *intend* this 'aspiration', it's
> just the way they frequently pronounce vowels in final positions.
>      This may well influence the way 'outsiders' who are very familiar
> with Mexican Spanish, whether native spekers or not, perceive final vowels
> or final -h's in Nahuatl. I'll stop short of speculating what effect it
> may have on Nahuatl speakers.
>
> Mary
>
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu wrote:
>
> >
> > John,
> > I have to respectfully disagree. The linguistic terms you refer to are
> > phoneme and allophone. The phoneme is the phonetic element which may have
> > various allophones depending on the environment. In Spanish, for example,
> > the phoneme /n/ is pronounced one way when it is intervocalic and another
> > when it is followed by a [g] or [c] and another when followed by [t], etc.
> > The way you determine whether or not two sounds are separate phonemes or
> > allophones of the same phoneme is to try and find two different words that
> > are exactly the same except for the two sounds in question. If two such
> > words exist, then the sounds are separate phonemes. I don't have enough
> > experience to be able to make judgments about all modern dialects of
> > Nahuatl, but my impression is that the aspiration and the glottal stop are
> > two separate phonemes. I would support this by providing a contrastive
> > pair of words consisting of the singular and plural of the indicative.
> > Now, John, I know that you disagree that the singular ending of the
> > indicative is a glottal stop. It is tough to argue these kind of things
> > over email without the benefit of speech, and you have more access to
> > native informants than I do, but I still think that what you describe as a
> > closing off of the throat is a glottal stop. And I disagree that all words
> > in any language must end by closing off the throat. In English when we
> > pronounce a word that ends in a vowel, we don't close off the throat at
> > the end. The word "go" for example doesn't end by abruptly interrupting
> > the vibration of the vocal chords by closing off the throat. The vocal
> > chords just quit vibrating and we cease to expel air. Glottal stop is
> > defined precisely as a closing off of the throat using the glottis and
> > consequently an abrupt stopping of vocal chord vibration. The native
> > speaker with whom I have had experience had a very clear glottal stop at
> > the end of verbs in the indicative singular. The difficulty I had was in
> > determining if there was an aspiration at the end of the plural or not. I
> > like to think there was a faint aspiration just as you have noted in the
> > speech of Huastecan Nahuatl. So, if this is the case, then we have a
> > contrastive pair in the third person singular and third person plural
> > indicative verbs such as quicua [kwa?] and quicuah [kwah] where the
> > [?]=3Dglottal stop. (The phonetic symbol is actually an upside down
> questio=
> > n
> > mark with no dot, but I can't make that go through on the email.) I
> > conclude therefore that the glottal stop and the aspiration are two
> > separate phonemes.
> > I submit this argument humbly and ask any of the professional linguists to
> > correct my reasoning if it is flawed.
> > Galen=20


From fjgs at servidor.unam.mx  Wed Feb  9 17:16:37 2000
From: fjgs at servidor.unam.mx (Ehecatecolotl)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:16:37 -0600
Subject: Fw: ma:ce:hualli
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.111637.0600.FJGS@SERVIDOR.UNAM.MX>

Mochin ticamanalohtica nican tlalticpan ipampa zan yuh timochin tiazqueh
mictlampa. Melahuac?

>Chapulhuacanito, San Luis Potosí, macehualmeh quitoah "Nah nicamanaloa ca
>nahuatl", uan Chicontepec, Veracruz, quitoah "Nah nizaniloa ca nahuatl".
> John Sullivan
> Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
>
>-----Mensaje original-----
>De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
[mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]En
>nombre de Ehecatecolotl
>Enviado el: Martes, 08 de Febrero de 2000 10:21 p.m.
>Para: Multiple recipients of list
>Asunto: Re: ma:ce:hualli
>
>Xinechmopohpolhuili, yeceh ya oniccac nican ompa Tenochtitlan nictlahtoa in
>macehuallahtolli.
>
>Tlazohcamati
>Ehecatecolotl.
>
>
>>Se dice: nitlahtoah macehualcopa, 'hablo mexicano'
>
>


From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Fri Feb 11 04:49:50 2000
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:49:50 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.214950.0700.>

Galen,
	Just two observations.  In the Huastecan dialects I work with, I would say
the saltillo is pretty close to a glottal stop when it is found between a
vowel and a consonant.  So in this environment, the glottal stop would be
phonemic.  Also, like I remarked before, Carochi distinguishes between the
pronunciation of word internal and word final saltillos, so perhaps, just as
in modern Nahuatl, the Classical saltillo had several allophones.
	John Sullivan
	Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas

-----Mensaje original-----
De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]En
nombre de Galen Brokaw
Enviado el: Jueves, 10 de Febrero de 2000 07:28 p.m.
Para: Multiple recipients of list
Asunto: Re: tlahtoa / saltillo

John,
You are right. I think my last email crossed with yours in cyberspace. In
the
dialects we are discussing, the glottal stop is not a phoneme. But the
closing
off of the throat is a nonphonemic glottal stop which occurs at the end of
vowel
final words. I think that was the original issue that Fran's post raised in
my
mind. So, if I may sum up here just to see if we are all on the same page.
And
please Fran, Mary, John, et al please correct me if I'm wrong:
1. The saltillo was a glottal stop in Classical (I know that from what John
has
said he may disagree with this)
2. In many (most?) modern dialects the glottal stop evolved into an
aspiration
/h/
3. In these dialects the glottal stop is no longer a phoneme but exists as a
phonetic characteristic of world final vowels.
4. In these modern dialects, the indicative singular verbs end with this
nonphonemic glottal stop
5. In Classical, the indicative plural verbs ended with a glottal stop,
which
was referred to as a saltillo (see #1)
6. In these modern dialects, the Classical saltillo of the indicative plural
verbs has evolved into an aspiration /h/ (see #2 and #5).
7. Most linguists continue to refer to the modern /h/ as a saltillo/glottal
stop
for historical reasons even though phonetically it is not.

I do have one question for those who may know. Are there differences of
opinion
among linguists about what the saltillo was phonetically in Classical
Nahuatl?
Also, I should say that although this discussion may seem pedantic to many,
it
has been very informative for me and I appreciate the dialogue with John,
Michael, and Mary.
Galen



John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:

> Galen,
> I'm sorry for the lack of precision with my terminology, but I'm not a
> linguist and the last course I took in linguistics was about 20 years ago.
> However, my lay description of the phoneme/allophone distinction was
> correct, although we disagree on its applicability in this case.  Moving
> along, when I wrote, "The pronunciation of the vowel which ends the
singular
> form, terminates with a closing off of the throat.  But this is true of
all
> word final vowels," what I should have said was, "this is true of all word
> final vowels in Nahuatl."  I never meant to refer to "all languages.  With
> this said, I agree with Mary's suggestion that the closing off of the
throat
> after word final vowels in Nahuatl MIGHT only mark the absence of the
> saltillo. Don't you think it's a bit suspect that the only criterion for
> distinction between the two phonemes you postulate (glottal stop and
> aspiration) is in the case of singular vs. plural?  O are you aware of any
> word-internal distinctive pairs which contrast the glottal stop and the
> aspiration?
>         John Sullivan
>         Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
[mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]En
> nombre de Mary Clayton
> Enviado el: Jueves, 10 de Febrero de 2000 01:57 p.m.
> Para: Multiple recipients of list
> Asunto: RE: tlahtoa / saltillo
>
> Galen,
>      I think you've given an admirable account of the concept of
> phonemes and allophones. I think that the 'disagreement' here may actually
> involve an unstated assumption, which doesn't directly involve 'fact', but
> (as is usual in linguistics at all levels of analysis -- even phonetics)
> *interpretation* of fact.
>      I think that the question that one would need to ask is: Is there any
> *third* way for words to end [that don't end in other consonants, of
> course]? That is, do the h and the glottal stop form a three-way contrast
> with a simple final vowel which is followed by NEITHER of these? Because a
> (not unreasonable) linguistic assumption might be that one of these is
> distinctive (as are other consonants) while the other just marks its
> absence, that is, just draws special attention to the fact that the word
> in question ends in a vowel rather than glottal stop (or h, depending on
> which way you want to argue). Seen this way, the question would be: Can
> words end in
>       -h,
>       -? ( = glottal stop)
>       -C ( = any consonant other than glottal stop)
>       or -V (= any vowel)?
>
> Or are the choices just
>       -h and -V as "allophones"
>       -?
>       -C
>
> or    -? and -V as "allophones"
>       -h
>       -C
>
>      Most people take a historical position on this question, calling the
> [historical] glottal stop a 'glottal stop' or 'saltillo' regardless of
> whether it is pronounced as [h] or [?] in the dialect in question.
> Whichever the pronunciation, this segment shows up in the morphologically
> expected places, which is one reason to keep the name the same even
> thought the pronunciation of presnest-day dialects may differ.
>      A way to 'explain' the modern distribution of sounds for those
> dialects which have  *real* glottal stops in the singular is that
> the *historical* glottal stop has > [h], and the *new* glottal stop just
> signals its absence. Taken too literally, this sounds like double-talk, of
> course: [?] = nothing and [h] = glottal stop, but it's a natural way of
> thinking for people who work with both classical and modern.
>
>      Let me mention two personal observations which are relevant to the
> issue, and certainly don't make it any simpler:
>
>      -- One of Joe's young friends (from Oapan) who is heavily
> Nahuatl-dominant, when speaking Spanish very frequently ends vowel-final
> words with a glottal stop. Spanish "si/" is [si?] and "no" is [no?]. I
> don't think he's exceptional. He's just the one I've heard the most (on
> tape -- his tapes frequently accompany us on car trips.)
>
>      -- There is a characteristic of general Mexican Spanish which may
> play a part in the confusion. I'm talking about Mexican speakers who know
> no Nahuatl, many of whom have probably had little or no exposure to it. My
> Caribbean-hearing ear (I'm from Tampa and grew up around Cuban-type
> Spanish) hears enough trailing-off of voice at the end of vowel-final
> words in Mexican Spanish to qualify them for -s final words in Cuban.
> That is to say, many pronunciations of singular nouns would be heard as
> plurals by people who turn s > h, and third-singular verbs sound like
> tu-forms.  But Mexicans don't *mean* or *intend* this 'aspiration', it's
> just the way they frequently pronounce vowels in final positions.
>      This may well influence the way 'outsiders' who are very familiar
> with Mexican Spanish, whether native spekers or not, perceive final vowels
> or final -h's in Nahuatl. I'll stop short of speculating what effect it
> may have on Nahuatl speakers.
>
> Mary
>
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu wrote:
>
> >
> > John,
> > I have to respectfully disagree. The linguistic terms you refer to are
> > phoneme and allophone. The phoneme is the phonetic element which may
have
> > various allophones depending on the environment. In Spanish, for
example,
> > the phoneme /n/ is pronounced one way when it is intervocalic and
another
> > when it is followed by a [g] or [c] and another when followed by [t],
etc.
> > The way you determine whether or not two sounds are separate phonemes or
> > allophones of the same phoneme is to try and find two different words
that
> > are exactly the same except for the two sounds in question. If two such
> > words exist, then the sounds are separate phonemes. I don't have enough
> > experience to be able to make judgments about all modern dialects of
> > Nahuatl, but my impression is that the aspiration and the glottal stop
are
> > two separate phonemes. I would support this by providing a contrastive
> > pair of words consisting of the singular and plural of the indicative.
> > Now, John, I know that you disagree that the singular ending of the
> > indicative is a glottal stop. It is tough to argue these kind of things
> > over email without the benefit of speech, and you have more access to
> > native informants than I do, but I still think that what you describe as
a
> > closing off of the throat is a glottal stop. And I disagree that all
words
> > in any language must end by closing off the throat. In English when we
> > pronounce a word that ends in a vowel, we don't close off the throat at
> > the end. The word "go" for example doesn't end by abruptly interrupting
> > the vibration of the vocal chords by closing off the throat. The vocal
> > chords just quit vibrating and we cease to expel air. Glottal stop is
> > defined precisely as a closing off of the throat using the glottis and
> > consequently an abrupt stopping of vocal chord vibration. The native
> > speaker with whom I have had experience had a very clear glottal stop at
> > the end of verbs in the indicative singular. The difficulty I had was in
> > determining if there was an aspiration at the end of the plural or not.
I
> > like to think there was a faint aspiration just as you have noted in the
> > speech of Huastecan Nahuatl. So, if this is the case, then we have a
> > contrastive pair in the third person singular and third person plural
> > indicative verbs such as quicua [kwa?] and quicuah [kwah] where the
> > [?]=3Dglottal stop. (The phonetic symbol is actually an upside down
> questio=
> > n
> > mark with no dot, but I can't make that go through on the email.) I
> > conclude therefore that the glottal stop and the aspiration are two
> > separate phonemes.
> > I submit this argument humbly and ask any of the professional linguists
to
> > correct my reasoning if it is flawed.
> > Galen=20


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Feb 11 11:53:39 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 04:53:39 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.045339.0700.>

Glottal stop trivia:

In Shawnee the glottal stop /?/ and /h/ are one phoneme. /?/ occurs before
obstruents and /h/ occurs elsewhere. They historically come from the same
sound, and Alford (early 1800's)  wrote them the same in his gospels. In
Gatschet's time (late 1800's) they were still both [h].


Michael


From lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr  Fri Feb 11 16:07:18 2000
From: lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr (Patrick LESBRE)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:07:18 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.090718.0700.>

Piedad por los listeros que se interesan por el nahuatl!!!
No tenemos tiempo para leer sus intercambios de ideas de tan alto nivel y es
preferible que los hagan entre si, no en publico.
Gracias.

At 19:11 07/02/00 -0700, vous avez =E9crit:
>aprende a escribir guey!!
>
>Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
>>=20
>> Hey Mario, an empty can makes the loudes noise, and you truely are an=
 empty
>> can!
>
>

___________________

Patrick LESBRE
Universit=E9 de Toulouse le Mirail
32 rue la Fonderie
31000 TOULOUSE
t=E9l./fax  33(0)5 61 14 26 99
email lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Fri Feb 11 16:41:27 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:41:27 -0700
Subject: Digest
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.094127.0700.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

In the recent switch from the listproc software to the majordomo software
one of the features which was lost was the digest.  There were five
subscribers who received all the daily postings from nahuat-l in a single
message, i.e. a digest.  Under majordomo this can be done but it exists as
a separate list and would have to be managed separately.  Consequently I
made the decision not to create a digest list, since there were only 5
digest subscribers.

At least one subscriber has written requesting that a digest version be
created.  This will depend on the level of interest.  If you are interested
in the digest form, please let me know OFF LINE.  That is, DO NOT hit the
reply.  Send me a message at:
schwallr at selway.umt.edu

Thanks to you all.

J. F. Schwaller
List owner
John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Fri Feb 11 18:36:55 2000
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:36:55 -0700
Subject: Preclassic, Classic and Postclassic
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.113655.0700.>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0115_01BF74C6.E0893BE0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Somehow the two very important messages I had received on this subject (from
Fran Karttunen and "micc") got  inadvertently deleted.

Fran and micc, could I receive another copy, PLEASE??

Sorry for that.

Susana Moraleda


------=_NextPart_000_0115_01BF74C6.E0893BE0
Content-Type: text/x-vcard;
	name="Susana Moraleda.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf"

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:Moraleda;Susana
FN:Susana Moraleda
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
REV:20000211T183236Z
END:VCARD

------=_NextPart_000_0115_01BF74C6.E0893BE0--


From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Fri Feb 11 19:51:09 2000
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:51:09 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.125109.0700.>

At the risk of extending this discussion beyond y'all's patience, I just
wanted to make a comment.
I tend to forget sometimes that Classical Nahuatl as we know it through
grammars and dictionaries probably gives us a false sense of linguistic
homogeneity at the time of the conquest. It seems more likely that there were
many dialects at the time of the conquest just like there are today and that
any given grammar recorded only one of those dialects. So, there may have been
dialects in the sixteenth-century that did not have the glottal stop as a
phoneme and others that used it in different ways. So, I guess it is difficult
to talk about a phonetic evolution from Classical with regard to all dialects
because we don't know what the characteristics of all dialects were in the
sixteenth century.
Galen


From drothering at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 11 20:32:01 2000
From: drothering at hotmail.com (Darryl Röthering)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:32:01 -0700
Subject: phoneme vrs. allophone
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.133201.0700.>

I'm a newcomer to this list, and maybe I am out of my depth, so apologies in
advance.

Could one of you linguists give an english (or Spanish) example of an
allophone? I'm having trouble concetizing this notion. I think the example
of a phoneme is simple, correct me if I'm wrong:
cat cad :> one sound difference, and a verifiable meaning difference.

Is an allophone something like the difference between Brittish /tomahto/ and
American /tomayto/? Or am I barking up a bad tree?

Regards,

Darryl
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Feb 11 21:55:58 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:55:58 -0700
Subject: phoneme vrs. allophone
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.145558.0700.>

Phonemes are linguistically contrastive sounds (or sets of a language. And
like you pointed out, Darryl, such a contrast is typically indicated by
the existence of a minimal pair or what is often called these days
a contrast in an identical environment. As you note, minimal pairs are
pairs of words which differ only by a particular sound at a particular
(shared) location in the two word (eg. [mat] and [sat]). If two segments
cause such a difference in meaning in an identical environment then they
must belong to different phonemes, in this case /m/ and /s/.

As for allophones, these are variants of each phoneme that are usually
conditioned by the phonetic environment. For example /k/ is an English
phoneme, and [k'] and [k] are allophones of /k/. We find the first in
[k'at] 'cat'  and the second in [ski] 'ski'. The first is aspirated, the
second unaspirated.

So, a phoneme is a set of allophones. The allophones are actual realized
sound units while the phoneme is a set of those sounds that are usually in
what is called "complementary distribution." In other words,they are
"mutually exclusive." No native speaker of English says [kat] or [sk'i].
So, if two sounds are phonetically similarkl but are in complementary
distribution, they are considered allophones of a single phoneme.

tiquitta?

Michael


From bcoon at montana.edu  Fri Feb 11 22:40:10 2000
From: bcoon at montana.edu (Coon, Brad)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:40:10 -0700
Subject: phoneme vrs. allophone
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.154010.0700.>

A simple one that springs to mind is English /t/ which has several
allophones.
In [top], the [t] is aspirated (has a breathy [h] like quality to it)
whereas
in [stop], it doesn't.  I can't represent them correctly with this keyboard
and email program but if we designate them as [t] in [stop] and [t'] in
[top], these two are allophones of /t/.

Brad Coon                             (406) 994-6026
Reference Librarian              bcoon at montana.edu

The Libraries, Montana State University-Bozeman
P.O. Box 173320
Bozeman, MT 59717-3320

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Darryl Rvthering [SMTP:drothering at hotmail.com]
> Sent:	Friday, February 11, 2000 1:32 PM
> To:	Multiple recipients of list
> Subject:	phoneme vrs. allophone
>
> I'm a newcomer to this list, and maybe I am out of my depth, so apologies
> in
> advance.
>
> Could one of you linguists give an english (or Spanish) example of an
> allophone? I'm having trouble concetizing this notion. I think the example
>
> of a phoneme is simple, correct me if I'm wrong:
> cat cad :> one sound difference, and a verifiable meaning difference.
>
> Is an allophone something like the difference between Brittish /tomahto/
> and
> American /tomayto/? Or am I barking up a bad tree?
>
> Regards,
>
> Darryl
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From micc at home.com  Fri Feb 11 23:11:57 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:11:57 -0700
Subject: Preclassic, Classic and Postclassic.... at your service!!!!w
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.161157.0700.>

Marisol,

the reason there is no consensus on what span of time the pre, classic,
and post, actually include is that not all areas fell into the "cultural
attributes" of these epochs.  for instance, although the Maya "classic
period" is said to end by the 800's A.D., some sites ended their
building programs earlier, and some went on into the "post classic"
period. Also, a great problem that many archeologists ignore when they
set the "starting dates" of eras, especially the pre-classic, is their
almost total absence of perishable materials (especially in the "olmeca
regions) that can be used to date the 'beginning" of a cultural
awakening.

  Who's is to say that the pre-classic did not start 2,000 earlier, with
nothing but wood, straw and paper utensils?  except for a few
discoveries, all we can judge by are the stone sculptures, and earthen
mounds that remain. I has always seemed to me that the "mysterious
olmeca" did not suddenly spring forth from the slimy steamy swamps of
tabasco and Veracruz.  They ahd to have had generations of empirical
evidence to create their writing, calendrical mastery, and religious
building blocks that later cultures would adopt and change.

imagine someone coming back from 3,000 years in the future. They could
say that judging but our current lack of using stone for building,
sculpture, and religious objects, the 20th century was a "dark age" in
human civilization....(and indeed it could be stated that it was judging
by WWWI and II, etc....) Not knowing of the perishable cultural
creations we have (paper or plastic?>>>>, virtual reality, imitation
mayonnaise, etc.)

basically the eras can be broken down into three general periods:

Pre-classic period:  "olmeca" Tres Zapotes, Monte Alban, Tlatilco,
Piedras negras, etc.

classic: Kaminaljuyu, Teotihucancan, Tikal, Palenque, Monete Alban,
Copan, Etc.

Post Classic: chichen Itza, Tajin, Cholula, Tollan-Xicocotitlan,
Azcapotzalco, Cacaxtla, Mayapan, Tulum, Tenochtitlan.


As any amateur ( the the full french sense of the word) can see, the
dates for these great and nobel sites overlap in many cases.  Even
though Teotihuacan was "abandoned" at the end of the classic period,
research shows that there were still people living in the city in
"toltec" times.  monte Alban stretches from pre-classic to Spanish
times.

In a crude and simplistic sense I would (and I probably will generate a
lot of "empty can mail" for this, but oh well...)
say that the pre-classic era was an era of local chiefdoms becoming city
states; writing was developed; and the pan-mesoamerican form of religion
was coalesced ( that is not to imply that there was a homogenous
"mesoamerican religion.  instead what I see is a "common denominator" of
imagery, venus worship ( as the Tlaloc-Quetzalcoatl cult) and human
sacrifice (here we go again!!!)

the classic was a period of state control of trade, religion, ritual
warfare, and a high level of mathmatics, egineering, artistic, and
literary development. It was also a time of serious and terminal
ecological destruction.

the post classic period was a time of "chichimec" intrusions into the
Mesoamerican world view. The Tlaloc-quetzalcoatl duality was replaced by
the tlaloc huitzilopochtli cult of the Mexi'ca   (of course this was not
the case everywhere!!) classic period institutions were transformed from
king based states to military-theocracies, The knowledge of the past was
religiously kept alive, memorized, and ritualized into mythology,
separate form its original historical relavence (Remember Tlacaelel
buring the ancient books with the 'truth" he did not want the Mexi'ca
people to know??). The "Toltec" lineage became of paramount authority in
highland maya ruling houses as well as in Chichen Itza (here is another
field of landmines!!), and of course in Anahuac where the Mexi'ca
systematically intermarried into the "cuhua" families of Culhuacan so
they could claim toltec blood.

Finally, it appears that the pochteca class was creating a powerbase
that transcended national boundires, since only they had the experitse
and contacts to bring elite goods form one area to another.


Anyway I will quit now, lest I be accused of pontificating again....:)





marisol wrote:
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF732B.B4BF7F20
> Content-Type: text/plain;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> I have started a research on pre-Aztec history in central Mexico, and found
> that each source I have consulted, gives different years for the division of
> the pre-classic, classic and post-classic periods.
>
> PRECLASSIC from 1500 BC till the start of AD? or till year 100? or till year
> 300?
>
> CLASSIC from X above till 750, 800 or 900 AD?
>
> POSTCLASSIC from X above till 1521?
>
> Some other sources name an "ARCHAIC" period lasting till 1500 BC (?)
>
> Is a consensus on this division?
>
> I would be grateful if someone could enlighten me, and/or indicate which
> reliable texts/web sites to consult.
>
> Susana Moraleda
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF732B.B4BF7F20
> Content-Type: text/x-vcard;
>         name="Susana Moraleda.vcf"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Disposition: attachment;
>         filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf"
>
> BEGIN:VCARD
> VERSION:2.1
> N:Moraleda;Susana
> FN:Susana Moraleda
> EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
> REV:20000209T173013Z
> END:VCARD
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF732B.B4BF7F20--



marisol wrote:
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0115_01BF74C6.E0893BE0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Somehow the two very important messages I had received on this subject (from
> Fran Karttunen and "micc") got  inadvertently deleted.
>
> Fran and micc, could I receive another copy, PLEASE??
>
> Sorry for that.
>
> Susana Moraleda
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0115_01BF74C6.E0893BE0
> Content-Type: text/x-vcard;
>         name="Susana Moraleda.vcf"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Disposition: attachment;
>         filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf"
>
> BEGIN:VCARD
> VERSION:2.1
> N:Moraleda;Susana
> FN:Susana Moraleda
> EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
> REV:20000211T183236Z
> END:VCARD
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0115_01BF74C6.E0893BE0--


From dfrye at umich.edu  Sat Feb 12 01:17:07 2000
From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:17:07 -0700
Subject: phoneme vrs. allophone
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.181707.0700.>

In Spanish, b and v represent a single phoneme (since they are pronounced
exactly alike in all positions) but each has (at least?) two allophones:
e.g. in the words vivir or beber, the first b/v is almost identical to
English b, whereas the second b/v is somewhere between English b and w --
the lips are slightly separated. But there is no Spanish word in which an
"initial b" falls between vowels and therefore contrasts with an
"intervocalic b", hence they are allophones not separate phonemes.


From j.kremers at let.kun.nl  Sat Feb 12 16:16:15 2000
From: j.kremers at let.kun.nl (Joost Kremers)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:16:15 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2000.091615.0700.>

hi all,

a few extra comments about the saltillo-discussion from a linguist
(albeit a syntactician, but one not entirely unknowledgable on matters
phonologic). basically, the account given by Galen Brokaw (see below) is
correct. in phonology, it is usually assumed that a word is stored in
the mental lexicon as a string of phonemes. when a word is pronounced,
these phonemes may undergo some alternation: the so-called allophones. a
good example of this is the spanish /b/, which, depending on context, is
pronounced either as [b] or [=DF] (=DF is the symbol for the so-called
bilabial fricative: sort of a v pronounced with both lips rather than
with the upper teeth and lower lips. note, by the way, that phonemes are
indicated with slashes, whereas square brackets indicate the actual
phonological realization.) in phonological terms: the phoneme /b/ has
two allophones in spanish: [b] and [=DF].

but this is not all of what is going on in the phonology of a language.
there is another set of processes, which do not apply to phonemes, but
to the actual phonological realization. for example, in RP (british
english), there is a rule called preglottalization: before a voiceless
stop (/p, t, k/) a glottal stop (/?/) is inserted. that is, a word such
as 'dent' is pronounced something like [den?t], with a glottal stop
before the /t/. (there is good reason not to see [?t] as an allophone of
/t/, but it would take too far to go into that.)

note that this category of rules may introduce phonological items that
do not exist as phonemes in the language: RP does not have the glottal
stop as a phoneme.

as for nahuatl, the case seems to be the following. (in this, i base
myself on the discussion on this list, as i have no first-hand
information.) there is an underlying phoneme, call it saltillo, that has
at least two allophones: as [h] in word-final position and between
vowels, and as a glottal stop (perhaps accompanied by aspiration) before
a consonant. if i'm not mistaken, (but i get all my information trough
the web, so for what it's worth:) it is even a velar fricative (close to
spanish j) in some dialects. the question what the underlying phoneme
is, cannot be answered easily. (from what i've read on the list so far,
i would argue it is probably /h/, not a glottal stop, but this is not a
critical question.)

apart from this, there is apparently a rule that inserts a glottal stop
after a word-final vowel. this glottal stop is not part of the phonemic
string that underlies a word, it is inserted afterwards. it is
comparable to the rule that inserts a glottal stop before word-initial
vowels in german (and other languages, e.g., dutch). i.e., it is not a
phonemic, but a phonological phenomenon.

so we have:

tlahtoah: underlyingly /Lahtoah/ (i'll just use L to indicate the
lateral plosive, for want of a better way...). allophone assignment
makes the first /h/ a /?/, and the second a /h/. no further rules apply,
so we get [La?toah].

tlahtoa: underlyingly /Lahtoa/. allophone assignment makes the /h/ a
/?/. after that, another rule, say 'post-glottalization', adds a /?/.
so, the word comes out as [La?toa?].

note that native speakers of a language are usually aware of the
presence of phonemes, (although they may not recognize the allophones),
but they are not aware of the inserted elements. for example, a speaker
of spanish recognizes the presence of a phoneme /b/ in 'mover' (he will
say the word consists of the sounds m, o, b (or v), e and r). but a
speaker of (british) english will not be aware that there is a glottal
stop in his pronunciation of 'dent'. that means that if the descriptions
given in this list of actual speech from native speakers is correct,
they should consider plural quicuah as containing one more sound than
singular quicua.


here ends my lecture :-) as i said, the conclusion reached in the
discussion is quite correct. i just added my bit to explain how
phonologists would probably look at the matter.

Joost Kremers

-------------------------------------------
Joost Kremers

University of Nijmegen - The Netherlands
Department of Languages and Cultures of the Middle East
POBox 9103
6501 HD Nijmegen - The Netherlands
phone: +31 24 3608226



Galen Brokaw wrote:
> =

> John,
> You are right. I think my last email crossed with yours in cyberspace. =
In the
> dialects we are discussing, the glottal stop is not a phoneme. But the =
closing
> off of the throat is a nonphonemic glottal stop which occurs at the end=
 of vowel
> final words. I think that was the original issue that Fran's post raise=
d in my
> mind. So, if I may sum up here just to see if we are all on the same pa=
ge. And
> please Fran, Mary, John, et al please correct me if I'm wrong:
> 1. The saltillo was a glottal stop in Classical (I know that from what =
John has
> said he may disagree with this)
> 2. In many (most?) modern dialects the glottal stop evolved into an asp=
iration
> /h/
> 3. In these dialects the glottal stop is no longer a phoneme but exists=
 as a
> phonetic characteristic of world final vowels.
> 4. In these modern dialects, the indicative singular verbs end with thi=
s
> nonphonemic glottal stop
> 5. In Classical, the indicative plural verbs ended with a glottal stop,=
 which
> was referred to as a saltillo (see #1)
> 6. In these modern dialects, the Classical saltillo of the indicative p=
lural
> verbs has evolved into an aspiration /h/ (see #2 and #5).
> 7. Most linguists continue to refer to the modern /h/ as a saltillo/glo=
ttal stop
> for historical reasons even though phonetically it is not.
> =

> I do have one question for those who may know. Are there differences of=
 opinion
> among linguists about what the saltillo was phonetically in Classical N=
ahuatl?
> Also, I should say that although this discussion may seem pedantic to m=
any, it
> has been very informative for me and I appreciate the dialogue with Joh=
n,
> Michael, and Mary.
> Galen
> =

> John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:
> =

> > Galen,
> > I'm sorry for the lack of precision with my terminology, but I'm not =
a
> > linguist and the last course I took in linguistics was about 20 years=
 ago.
> > However, my lay description of the phoneme/allophone distinction was
> > correct, although we disagree on its applicability in this case.  Mov=
ing
> > along, when I wrote, "The pronunciation of the vowel which ends the s=
ingular
> > form, terminates with a closing off of the throat.  But this is true =
of all
> > word final vowels," what I should have said was, "this is true of all=
 word
> > final vowels in Nahuatl."  I never meant to refer to "all languages. =
 With
> > this said, I agree with Mary's suggestion that the closing off of the=
 throat
> > after word final vowels in Nahuatl MIGHT only mark the absence of the=

> > saltillo. Don't you think it's a bit suspect that the only criterion =
for
> > distinction between the two phonemes you postulate (glottal stop and
> > aspiration) is in the case of singular vs. plural?  O are you aware o=
f any
> > word-internal distinctive pairs which contrast the glottal stop and t=
he
> > aspiration?
> >         John Sullivan
> >         Universidad Aut=F3noma de Zacatecas
> >
> > -----Mensaje original-----
> > De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt=
=2Eedu]En
> > nombre de Mary Clayton
> > Enviado el: Jueves, 10 de Febrero de 2000 01:57 p.m.
> > Para: Multiple recipients of list
> > Asunto: RE: tlahtoa / saltillo
> >
> > Galen,
> >      I think you've given an admirable account of the concept of
> > phonemes and allophones. I think that the 'disagreement' here may act=
ually
> > involve an unstated assumption, which doesn't directly involve 'fact'=
, but
> > (as is usual in linguistics at all levels of analysis -- even phoneti=
cs)
> > *interpretation* of fact.
> >      I think that the question that one would need to ask is: Is ther=
e any
> > *third* way for words to end [that don't end in other consonants, of
> > course]? That is, do the h and the glottal stop form a three-way cont=
rast
> > with a simple final vowel which is followed by NEITHER of these? Beca=
use a
> > (not unreasonable) linguistic assumption might be that one of these i=
s
> > distinctive (as are other consonants) while the other just marks its
> > absence, that is, just draws special attention to the fact that the w=
ord
> > in question ends in a vowel rather than glottal stop (or h, depending=
 on
> > which way you want to argue). Seen this way, the question would be: C=
an
> > words end in
> >       -h,
> >       -? ( =3D glottal stop)
> >       -C ( =3D any consonant other than glottal stop)
> >       or -V (=3D any vowel)?
> >
> > Or are the choices just
> >       -h and -V as "allophones"
> >       -?
> >       -C
> >
> > or    -? and -V as "allophones"
> >       -h
> >       -C
> >
> >      Most people take a historical position on this question, calling=
 the
> > [historical] glottal stop a 'glottal stop' or 'saltillo' regardless o=
f
> > whether it is pronounced as [h] or [?] in the dialect in question.
> > Whichever the pronunciation, this segment shows up in the morphologic=
ally
> > expected places, which is one reason to keep the name the same even
> > thought the pronunciation of presnest-day dialects may differ.
> >      A way to 'explain' the modern distribution of sounds for those
> > dialects which have  *real* glottal stops in the singular is that
> > the *historical* glottal stop has > [h], and the *new* glottal stop j=
ust
> > signals its absence. Taken too literally, this sounds like double-tal=
k, of
> > course: [?] =3D nothing and [h] =3D glottal stop, but it's a natural =
way of
> > thinking for people who work with both classical and modern.
> >
> >      Let me mention two personal observations which are relevant to t=
he
> > issue, and certainly don't make it any simpler:
> >
> >      -- One of Joe's young friends (from Oapan) who is heavily
> > Nahuatl-dominant, when speaking Spanish very frequently ends vowel-fi=
nal
> > words with a glottal stop. Spanish "si/" is [si?] and "no" is [no?]. =
I
> > don't think he's exceptional. He's just the one I've heard the most (=
on
> > tape -- his tapes frequently accompany us on car trips.)
> >
> >      -- There is a characteristic of general Mexican Spanish which ma=
y
> > play a part in the confusion. I'm talking about Mexican speakers who =
know
> > no Nahuatl, many of whom have probably had little or no exposure to i=
t. My
> > Caribbean-hearing ear (I'm from Tampa and grew up around Cuban-type
> > Spanish) hears enough trailing-off of voice at the end of vowel-final=

> > words in Mexican Spanish to qualify them for -s final words in Cuban.=

> > That is to say, many pronunciations of singular nouns would be heard =
as
> > plurals by people who turn s > h, and third-singular verbs sound like=

> > tu-forms.  But Mexicans don't *mean* or *intend* this 'aspiration', i=
t's
> > just the way they frequently pronounce vowels in final positions.
> >      This may well influence the way 'outsiders' who are very familia=
r
> > with Mexican Spanish, whether native spekers or not, perceive final v=
owels
> > or final -h's in Nahuatl. I'll stop short of speculating what effect =
it
> > may have on Nahuatl speakers.
> >
> > Mary
> >
> > On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > John,
> > > I have to respectfully disagree. The linguistic terms you refer to =
are
> > > phoneme and allophone. The phoneme is the phonetic element which ma=
y have
> > > various allophones depending on the environment. In Spanish, for ex=
ample,
> > > the phoneme /n/ is pronounced one way when it is intervocalic and a=
nother
> > > when it is followed by a [g] or [c] and another when followed by [t=
], etc.
> > > The way you determine whether or not two sounds are separate phonem=
es or
> > > allophones of the same phoneme is to try and find two different wor=
ds that
> > > are exactly the same except for the two sounds in question. If two =
such
> > > words exist, then the sounds are separate phonemes. I don't have en=
ough
> > > experience to be able to make judgments about all modern dialects o=
f
> > > Nahuatl, but my impression is that the aspiration and the glottal s=
top are
> > > two separate phonemes. I would support this by providing a contrast=
ive
> > > pair of words consisting of the singular and plural of the indicati=
ve.
> > > Now, John, I know that you disagree that the singular ending of the=

> > > indicative is a glottal stop. It is tough to argue these kind of th=
ings
> > > over email without the benefit of speech, and you have more access =
to
> > > native informants than I do, but I still think that what you descri=
be as a
> > > closing off of the throat is a glottal stop. And I disagree that al=
l words
> > > in any language must end by closing off the throat. In English when=
 we
> > > pronounce a word that ends in a vowel, we don't close off the throa=
t at
> > > the end. The word "go" for example doesn't end by abruptly interrup=
ting
> > > the vibration of the vocal chords by closing off the throat. The vo=
cal
> > > chords just quit vibrating and we cease to expel air. Glottal stop =
is
> > > defined precisely as a closing off of the throat using the glottis =
and
> > > consequently an abrupt stopping of vocal chord vibration. The nativ=
e
> > > speaker with whom I have had experience had a very clear glottal st=
op at
> > > the end of verbs in the indicative singular. The difficulty I had w=
as in
> > > determining if there was an aspiration at the end of the plural or =
not. I
> > > like to think there was a faint aspiration just as you have noted i=
n the
> > > speech of Huastecan Nahuatl. So, if this is the case, then we have =
a
> > > contrastive pair in the third person singular and third person plur=
al
> > > indicative verbs such as quicua [kwa?] and quicuah [kwah] where the=

> > > [?]=3D3Dglottal stop. (The phonetic symbol is actually an upside do=
wn
> > questio=3D
> > > n
> > > mark with no dot, but I can't make that go through on the email.) I=

> > > conclude therefore that the glottal stop and the aspiration are two=

> > > separate phonemes.
> > > I submit this argument humbly and ask any of the professional lingu=
ists to
> > > correct my reasoning if it is flawed.
> > > Galen=3D20


From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Sun Feb 13 19:24:02 2000
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:24:02 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2000.122402.0700.>

Joost,
I think you have to distinguish here between dialects. If I understand John
correctly, your description is accurate for the Huastecan dialect. But there
are dialects in which the original saltillo is now an [h] both at the end of
the word and before consonants. In these dialects, the glottal stop has
disappeared as a phoneme, although it still appears after word final vowels.
Galen

> as for nahuatl, the case seems to be the following. (in this, i base
> myself on the discussion on this list, as i have no first-hand
> information.) there is an underlying phoneme, call it saltillo, that has
> at least two allophones: as [h] in word-final position and between
> vowels, and as a glottal stop (perhaps accompanied by aspiration) before
> a consonant. if i'm not mistaken, (but i get all my information trough
> the web, so for what it's worth:) it is even a velar fricative (close to
> spanish j) in some dialects. the question what the underlying phoneme
> is, cannot be answered easily. (from what i've read on the list so far,
> i would argue it is probably /h/, not a glottal stop, but this is not a
> critical question.)
>
> apart from this, there is apparently a rule that inserts a glottal stop
> after a word-final vowel. this glottal stop is not part of the phonemic
> string that underlies a word, it is inserted afterwards. it is
> comparable to the rule that inserts a glottal stop before word-initial
> vowels in german (and other languages, e.g., dutch). i.e., it is not a
> phonemic, but a phonological phenomenon.
>
> so we have:
>
> tlahtoah: underlyingly /Lahtoah/ (i'll just use L to indicate the
> lateral plosive, for want of a better way...). allophone assignment
> makes the first /h/ a /?/, and the second a /h/. no further rules apply,
> so we get [La?toah].
>
> tlahtoa: underlyingly /Lahtoa/. allophone assignment makes the /h/ a
> /?/. after that, another rule, say 'post-glottalization', adds a /?/.
> so, the word comes out as [La?toa?].
>
> note that native speakers of a language are usually aware of the
> presence of phonemes, (although they may not recognize the allophones),
> but they are not aware of the inserted elements. for example, a speaker
> of spanish recognizes the presence of a phoneme /b/ in 'mover' (he will
> say the word consists of the sounds m, o, b (or v), e and r). but a
> speaker of (british) english will not be aware that there is a glottal
> stop in his pronunciation of 'dent'. that means that if the descriptions
> given in this list of actual speech from native speakers is correct,
> they should consider plural quicuah as containing one more sound than
> singular quicua.
>
> here ends my lecture :-) as i said, the conclusion reached in the
> discussion is quite correct. i just added my bit to explain how
> phonologists would probably look at the matter.
>
> Joost Kremers
>
> -------------------------------------------
> Joost Kremers
>
> University of Nijmegen - The Netherlands
> Department of Languages and Cultures of the Middle East
> POBox 9103
> 6501 HD Nijmegen - The Netherlands
> phone: +31 24 3608226
>
> Galen Brokaw wrote:
> > =
>
> > John,
> > You are right. I think my last email crossed with yours in cyberspace. =
> In the
> > dialects we are discussing, the glottal stop is not a phoneme. But the =
> closing
> > off of the throat is a nonphonemic glottal stop which occurs at the end=
>  of vowel
> > final words. I think that was the original issue that Fran's post raise=
> d in my
> > mind. So, if I may sum up here just to see if we are all on the same pa=
> ge. And
> > please Fran, Mary, John, et al please correct me if I'm wrong:
> > 1. The saltillo was a glottal stop in Classical (I know that from what =
> John has
> > said he may disagree with this)
> > 2. In many (most?) modern dialects the glottal stop evolved into an asp=
> iration
> > /h/
> > 3. In these dialects the glottal stop is no longer a phoneme but exists=
>  as a
> > phonetic characteristic of world final vowels.
> > 4. In these modern dialects, the indicative singular verbs end with thi=
> s
> > nonphonemic glottal stop
> > 5. In Classical, the indicative plural verbs ended with a glottal stop,=
>  which
> > was referred to as a saltillo (see #1)
> > 6. In these modern dialects, the Classical saltillo of the indicative p=
> lural
> > verbs has evolved into an aspiration /h/ (see #2 and #5).
> > 7. Most linguists continue to refer to the modern /h/ as a saltillo/glo=
> ttal stop
> > for historical reasons even though phonetically it is not.
> > =
>
> > I do have one question for those who may know. Are there differences of=
>  opinion
> > among linguists about what the saltillo was phonetically in Classical N=
> ahuatl?
> > Also, I should say that although this discussion may seem pedantic to m=
> any, it
> > has been very informative for me and I appreciate the dialogue with Joh=
> n,
> > Michael, and Mary.
> > Galen
> > =
>
> > John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:
> > =
>
> > > Galen,
> > > I'm sorry for the lack of precision with my terminology, but I'm not =
> a
> > > linguist and the last course I took in linguistics was about 20 years=
>  ago.
> > > However, my lay description of the phoneme/allophone distinction was
> > > correct, although we disagree on its applicability in this case.  Mov=
> ing
> > > along, when I wrote, "The pronunciation of the vowel which ends the s=
> ingular
> > > form, terminates with a closing off of the throat.  But this is true =
> of all
> > > word final vowels," what I should have said was, "this is true of all=
>  word
> > > final vowels in Nahuatl."  I never meant to refer to "all languages. =
>  With
> > > this said, I agree with Mary's suggestion that the closing off of the=
>  throat
> > > after word final vowels in Nahuatl MIGHT only mark the absence of the=
>
> > > saltillo. Don't you think it's a bit suspect that the only criterion =
> for
> > > distinction between the two phonemes you postulate (glottal stop and
> > > aspiration) is in the case of singular vs. plural?  O are you aware o=
> f any
> > > word-internal distinctive pairs which contrast the glottal stop and t=
> he
> > > aspiration?
> > >         John Sullivan
> > >         Universidad Aut=F3noma de Zacatecas
> > >
> > > -----Mensaje original-----
> > > De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt=
> =2Eedu]En
> > > nombre de Mary Clayton
> > > Enviado el: Jueves, 10 de Febrero de 2000 01:57 p.m.
> > > Para: Multiple recipients of list
> > > Asunto: RE: tlahtoa / saltillo
> > >
> > > Galen,
> > >      I think you've given an admirable account of the concept of
> > > phonemes and allophones. I think that the 'disagreement' here may act=
> ually
> > > involve an unstated assumption, which doesn't directly involve 'fact'=
> , but
> > > (as is usual in linguistics at all levels of analysis -- even phoneti=
> cs)
> > > *interpretation* of fact.
> > >      I think that the question that one would need to ask is: Is ther=
> e any
> > > *third* way for words to end [that don't end in other consonants, of
> > > course]? That is, do the h and the glottal stop form a three-way cont=
> rast
> > > with a simple final vowel which is followed by NEITHER of these? Beca=
> use a
> > > (not unreasonable) linguistic assumption might be that one of these i=
> s
> > > distinctive (as are other consonants) while the other just marks its
> > > absence, that is, just draws special attention to the fact that the w=
> ord
> > > in question ends in a vowel rather than glottal stop (or h, depending=
>  on
> > > which way you want to argue). Seen this way, the question would be: C=
> an
> > > words end in
> > >       -h,
> > >       -? ( =3D glottal stop)
> > >       -C ( =3D any consonant other than glottal stop)
> > >       or -V (=3D any vowel)?
> > >
> > > Or are the choices just
> > >       -h and -V as "allophones"
> > >       -?
> > >       -C
> > >
> > > or    -? and -V as "allophones"
> > >       -h
> > >       -C
> > >
> > >      Most people take a historical position on this question, calling=
>  the
> > > [historical] glottal stop a 'glottal stop' or 'saltillo' regardless o=
> f
> > > whether it is pronounced as [h] or [?] in the dialect in question.
> > > Whichever the pronunciation, this segment shows up in the morphologic=
> ally
> > > expected places, which is one reason to keep the name the same even
> > > thought the pronunciation of presnest-day dialects may differ.
> > >      A way to 'explain' the modern distribution of sounds for those
> > > dialects which have  *real* glottal stops in the singular is that
> > > the *historical* glottal stop has > [h], and the *new* glottal stop j=
> ust
> > > signals its absence. Taken too literally, this sounds like double-tal=
> k, of
> > > course: [?] =3D nothing and [h] =3D glottal stop, but it's a natural =
> way of
> > > thinking for people who work with both classical and modern.
> > >
> > >      Let me mention two personal observations which are relevant to t=
> he
> > > issue, and certainly don't make it any simpler:
> > >
> > >      -- One of Joe's young friends (from Oapan) who is heavily
> > > Nahuatl-dominant, when speaking Spanish very frequently ends vowel-fi=
> nal
> > > words with a glottal stop. Spanish "si/" is [si?] and "no" is [no?]. =
> I
> > > don't think he's exceptional. He's just the one I've heard the most (=
> on
> > > tape -- his tapes frequently accompany us on car trips.)
> > >
> > >      -- There is a characteristic of general Mexican Spanish which ma=
> y
> > > play a part in the confusion. I'm talking about Mexican speakers who =
> know
> > > no Nahuatl, many of whom have probably had little or no exposure to i=
> t. My
> > > Caribbean-hearing ear (I'm from Tampa and grew up around Cuban-type
> > > Spanish) hears enough trailing-off of voice at the end of vowel-final=
>
> > > words in Mexican Spanish to qualify them for -s final words in Cuban.=
>
> > > That is to say, many pronunciations of singular nouns would be heard =
> as
> > > plurals by people who turn s > h, and third-singular verbs sound like=
>
> > > tu-forms.  But Mexicans don't *mean* or *intend* this 'aspiration', i=
> t's
> > > just the way they frequently pronounce vowels in final positions.
> > >      This may well influence the way 'outsiders' who are very familia=
> r
> > > with Mexican Spanish, whether native spekers or not, perceive final v=
> owels
> > > or final -h's in Nahuatl. I'll stop short of speculating what effect =
> it
> > > may have on Nahuatl speakers.
> > >
> > > Mary
> > >
> > > On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > John,
> > > > I have to respectfully disagree. The linguistic terms you refer to =
> are
> > > > phoneme and allophone. The phoneme is the phonetic element which ma=
> y have
> > > > various allophones depending on the environment. In Spanish, for ex=
> ample,
> > > > the phoneme /n/ is pronounced one way when it is intervocalic and a=
> nother
> > > > when it is followed by a [g] or [c] and another when followed by [t=
> ], etc.
> > > > The way you determine whether or not two sounds are separate phonem=
> es or
> > > > allophones of the same phoneme is to try and find two different wor=
> ds that
> > > > are exactly the same except for the two sounds in question. If two =
> such
> > > > words exist, then the sounds are separate phonemes. I don't have en=
> ough
> > > > experience to be able to make judgments about all modern dialects o=
> f
> > > > Nahuatl, but my impression is that the aspiration and the glottal s=
> top are
> > > > two separate phonemes. I would support this by providing a contrast=
> ive
> > > > pair of words consisting of the singular and plural of the indicati=
> ve.
> > > > Now, John, I know that you disagree that the singular ending of the=
>
> > > > indicative is a glottal stop. It is tough to argue these kind of th=
> ings
> > > > over email without the benefit of speech, and you have more access =
> to
> > > > native informants than I do, but I still think that what you descri=
> be as a
> > > > closing off of the throat is a glottal stop. And I disagree that al=
> l words
> > > > in any language must end by closing off the throat. In English when=
>  we
> > > > pronounce a word that ends in a vowel, we don't close off the throa=
> t at
> > > > the end. The word "go" for example doesn't end by abruptly interrup=
> ting
> > > > the vibration of the vocal chords by closing off the throat. The vo=
> cal
> > > > chords just quit vibrating and we cease to expel air. Glottal stop =
> is
> > > > defined precisely as a closing off of the throat using the glottis =
> and
> > > > consequently an abrupt stopping of vocal chord vibration. The nativ=
> e
> > > > speaker with whom I have had experience had a very clear glottal st=
> op at
> > > > the end of verbs in the indicative singular. The difficulty I had w=
> as in
> > > > determining if there was an aspiration at the end of the plural or =
> not. I
> > > > like to think there was a faint aspiration just as you have noted i=
> n the
> > > > speech of Huastecan Nahuatl. So, if this is the case, then we have =
> a
> > > > contrastive pair in the third person singular and third person plur=
> al
> > > > indicative verbs such as quicua [kwa?] and quicuah [kwah] where the=
>
> > > > [?]=3D3Dglottal stop. (The phonetic symbol is actually an upside do=
> wn
> > > questio=3D
> > > > n
> > > > mark with no dot, but I can't make that go through on the email.) I=
>
> > > > conclude therefore that the glottal stop and the aspiration are two=
>
> > > > separate phonemes.
> > > > I submit this argument humbly and ask any of the professional lingu=
> ists to
> > > > correct my reasoning if it is flawed.
> > > > Galen=3D20


From J.Kremers at let.kun.nl  Mon Feb 14 13:06:46 2000
From: J.Kremers at let.kun.nl (Joost Kremers)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 06:06:46 -0700
Subject: two questions (and Re: tlahtoa / saltillo)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2000.060646.0700.>

hi galen and all,

>I think you have to distinguish here between dialects. If I understand John
>correctly, your description is accurate for the Huastecan dialect. But there
>are dialects in which the original saltillo is now an [h] both at the end of
>the word and before consonants.

well, i based my comments on the remarks in this list. i have no first-hand
information.

in relation to this matter, i have two questions: i am just beginning to
learn nahuatl, and i am now wandering what would be the best pronunciation
of the letter h (as in the andrews and karttunen/campbell orthography) to
accustom myself to? as glottal stop, as /h/, as either depending on
context, or perhaps even as spanish j?

and furthermore, does anyone know if there are any sound fragments of
spoken nahuatl available on the internet? anything that might help me in
acquiring some sort of a reasonable pronunciation?

thanks in advance,

joost kremers


----------------------------------------
Joost Kremers
Katholieke Universiteit Nijmegen
Talen en Culturen van het Midden-Oosten
Postbus 9103
6500 HD Nijmegen
tel: 024-3612996
fax: 024-3611972


From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb 15 02:42:25 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:42:25 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2000.194225.0700.>

There is a difference between saltillo (whatever its phonetic realization)
and the other phenomenon under discussion.

Saltillo is the name for a segmental phoneme not only in 16th-century
Central Mexican Nahuatl, but in a lot of varieties of currently-spoken
Nahuatl.  It serves to distinguish meaning in many, many minimal pairs (not
just singular/plural).  Its role in the phonology and morphology of Nahuatl
is like that of other consonants, such as t or p.

The closing off of short vowels in word-final position is contextual, not
segmental.

How one chooses to represent it is arbitrary, but getting saltillo mixed up
with anything nonsegmental by using "h" sometimes for one and sometimes for
the other is an invitation to confusion.

Fran


From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb 15 03:02:52 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:02:52 -0700
Subject: appropriation of a culture
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2000.200252.0700.>

The following will soon appear in the SSILA Bulletin

INDIAN LANGUAGES TO BE INCORPORATED INTO COMPUTER GAME

Heriberto Avelino (avelino at ucla.edu) writes us that, some weeks ago,
he received a series of messages from a CD-ROM development company in
Los Angeles.  They are working on an update of "Age of Empires II",
an "educational, historical CD-ROM computer game" that is marketed by
Microsoft.  This enormously popular "real-time strategy" game combines
"stunning graphics" with the "drama and intrigue" of world history from
the Fall of Rome through the Middle Ages.  According to the game's
official website:

    ...players are challenged to build their nations into great
    civilizations and defeat the enemy by making strategic decisions
    throughout the game.  Each of the 13 civilizations represented in
    "Age of Empires II," including the Mongols, Celts, Vikings and
    Japanese, features distinctive attributes, buildings and techno-
    logies and a unique combat unit based on its historical counterpart.
    In addition, "Age of Empires II" features five campaigns based on
    the adventures of prominent historical figures, including Joan of
    Arc, William Wallace and Ghengis Khan, that draw players deeper
    into the game as they march alongside the hero to victory.

In the update that is being prepared, two New World civilizations will
being added to the roster:  The Aztec Empire and the Classical Maya.
Heriberto was contacted to see if he would be interested in recording
dialogue in Nahuatl.  The developers explained:

    Single word statements and commands will occur when the player
    clicks on a villager, priest, military man or king (one set
    each for the various cultures).  The client is anxious that
    the pronunciations be historically and linguistically accurate.
    They are providing us translations with phonetic spellings.
    That means that, in the case of Nahuatl, it will be Classical
    Nahuatl that would be spoken.  [We think] it important that
    people native to the country in general, and familiar with
    Nahuatl specifically (even if it's only the "modern" version)
    be utilized for the speaking parts, because that would greatly
    increase our chances of correct pronunciations.  We need one
    woman and two men for each language.  We will have each man
    do two speaking parts in varying "voices."  Each person would
    have about twenty (or less) single and double word phrases to
    utter.

Heriberto rejected the job because he felt that it was not right for
a company like Microsoft to use contemporary cultures and languages
in combat games.  To him, this is far from being an "educational" or
"historic" tool.  Doubtless, however, the forces of commodification
will prevail, and hordes of adolescent gamers around the world will
soon be (electronically) crying "Die, vile scum!" in Classical Nahuatl
as they hurl their virtual spears at the enemy.  (One wonders if the
parameters of the game allow for the defeat of Cortez?)

Meanwhile, for the curious, further information on "Age of Empires II"
can be found on the web at:

                 http://www.microsoft.com/games/age2/

Lest you think this is a small matter, either culturally or commercially,
Microsoft has so far shipped over two million copies of "Age of Empires
II", and it sells at a retail price of $54.95.


From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Tue Feb 15 21:31:20 2000
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:31:20 -0700
Subject: appropriation of a culture
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.143120.0700.>

I don't think people should cooperate in any way with war games.
Supposedly, since the birth of the UN or League of Nations(?), one of
humanity's official goals has been to end war.  Obviously we haven't done
too great a job, but that doesn't change the imperative.  I probably
wouldn't have responded to this issue, but here in Mexico we have been going
through tough times with respect to authoritarianism vs. democracy.  The
federal government has shamelessly unmasked the difference between its
discourse on democratization, and its real authoritarian practices with
respect to the UNAM.  I'm not knocking Mexico: democracy has never had a
place in US educational institutions.  Mexican public universities are
trying to make it work, and I guess the most visible failures and setbacks
are always suffered by those on the front lines.  Anyway, dialogue is what
we should practice, support, teach, and cooperate with; not games that teach
people how to fight.
	John Sullivan
	Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas

-----Mensaje original-----
De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]En
nombre de XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com
Enviado el: Martes, 15 de Febrero de 2000 12:30 p.m.
Para: Multiple recipients of list
Asunto: Re: appropriation of a culture


So when a videogame has this large of an impact on our youngsters and
strategy game-playing adults such as myself, which is the lessor evil?
Including the Aztec and Maya in such a combat game, or excluding them?

Include them, and suffer yet another association to a combative, violent
history -- to this I would ask: which MAJOR civilization on par with the
Aztec/Maya hasn't had is share of battles?  Exclude the Aztec and Maya and
the game will suffer from a lack of cultural breadth -- and ance again
perpetuate the ignorance that all civilization radiates from Eurasia.

The game will be released by Microsoft with or without the Aztecs and Mayas
-- the question is, can it be done tastefully and responsibly?  Will the
goal
be to conquer the native peoples (as some videogames have as their aim) or
to
ally with them?

If we are to believe the the brief description included and the model
provided at the weblink given, the player is supposed to ALLY (read:
sympathize) with the native warriors and rulers, to "fight alongside them"
with their great leaders.  I think we greatly understimate the power of
positive transference this identification might have.  Witness the strength
and resurgence that Celtic culture has had through technology in recent
years
via roleplaying and combat games.  I know non-Celts out there who easily
know
more about Celtic history than American history through such immersive
involvement in using the terms and guiding principles of that culture.

Last time I played a strategic computer wargame (for example Warcraft) the
human characters did not hurl epithets at each other when they were clicked
on for commands.  They said such things as "My Lord, what is your wish?"
and
"Ballista Engaged", etc.  I cannot vouch for Microsoft's Age of Empires, but
based on what Microsoft's request was:

<< Single word statements and commands will occur when the player
    clicks on a villager, priest, military man or king (one set
    each for the various cultures).>>

Single-word statements of acknowledgement hardly equate with epithets such
as
"Die, vile scum!" as was feared.  Was that really what Microsoft was asking
for?  Insults?  Until I know more about the project itself and how the
characters are intended to be used, I'm taking the entire preview with a
grain of salt.

In the end, it sounds to me as if the decline of involvement in this venture
was more a pro-peace statement than one of cultural preservation.
Precolumbian warrior culture deserves to be canonized as much as any other
(Samurai, Celts, Mongols, what-have-you), and be it though popular culture
and videogames, *so be it*.  I hope Microsoft does find somebody to
spearhead
this aspect of the project, and finds a noble, knowledgeable person to do
it,
because I really don't think cultural absorption of this kind can or should
be stopped.  Its foolish to think of the game as an educational tool.  But
with well-researched cultural backgrounds, such as the overview at
http://www.microsoft.com/Games/age2/c_byzantines.htm, it's clearly a game
with educational possibilities and the potential to reach a broad
cross-section of our culture.  If this game gets people to "think like
Aztecs", using their strategies, weaponry and life principles, what is the
harm?  Stong warrior cultures such as the Celts and Japanese embrace the
"fantastical" nature their cultures have come to hold in the eyes of
outsiders, even integrate it to their advantage (witness the HUGE boom in
japanimation and how the genre is received as a legitimate form of
contemporary mythmaking even here in America).

Imagine if the average 14-year-old boy actually knew what a maccuahuitl was,
and was proud to weild it, if only in a virtual manner?  I can imagine this
world.

I write this well knowing my defense of this game might might not be
well-received in this group.  So be it.  I've seen many poor appropriations
of culture in recent years, made somewhat of an informal study of it, and I
feel strongly that this wargaming project has more potential to educate and
evoke sympathy than hurt, breed hate or misunderstanding.

Alison King


From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Tue Feb 15 22:32:32 2000
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:32:32 -0700
Subject: Olmecs
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.153232.0700.>

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It is said that the Olmecs were the inhabitants of Olman,  (place of
rubber - "ulli").  Would anyone know what was the role of rubber in their
lives?

Thanks a lot,
Susana Moraleda

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EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
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From bortiz at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 15 23:40:27 2000
From: bortiz at earthlink.net (Bernard Ortiz de Montellano)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:40:27 -0700
Subject: Olmecs
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.164027.0700.>

>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0057_01BF780B.35875C20
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>It is said that the Olmecs were the inhabitants of Olman,  (place of
>rubber - "ulli").  Would anyone know what was the role of rubber in their
>lives?
>
>Thanks a lot,
>Susana Moraleda
The ball game was a very important part of Mesoamerican  world view, and
began very early. The oldest Olmec ball court found is  dated 1400 B.C.
Rubber balls have been found in the Olmec swampy site of El Manati.

Dorothy Hosler has recently published a paper showing thst the techniques
natives use to make rubber is the same as that reported in early colonial
times.

Bernard Ortiz de Montellano


From micc at home.com  Wed Feb 16 01:45:53 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:45:53 -0700
Subject: Olmecs
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.184553.0700.>

In historical times, rubber was also used as an incense (albeit a smelly
incense, but hey, what would the Olmeca think of our "air fresheners,
chemicals and all?......)      .....:)

Bernard Ortiz de Montellano wrote:
>
> >This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> >
> >------=_NextPart_000_0057_01BF780B.35875C20
> >Content-Type: text/plain;
> >       charset="iso-8859-1"
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> >It is said that the Olmecs were the inhabitants of Olman,  (place of
> >rubber - "ulli").  Would anyone know what was the role of rubber in their
> >lives?
> >
> >Thanks a lot,
> >Susana Moraleda
> The ball game was a very important part of Mesoamerican  world view, and
> began very early. The oldest Olmec ball court found is  dated 1400 B.C.
> Rubber balls have been found in the Olmec swampy site of El Manati.
>
> Dorothy Hosler has recently published a paper showing thst the techniques
> natives use to make rubber is the same as that reported in early colonial
> times.
>
> Bernard Ortiz de Montellano


From mmontcha at oregonvos.net  Wed Feb 16 01:56:21 2000
From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:56:21 -0700
Subject: ulli = "rubber" Re: Olmecs
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.185621.0700.>

Susana Moraleda wrote:
|>It is said that the Olmecs were the inhabitants of Olman,  (place of
|>rubber - "ulli").  Would anyone know what was the role of rubber in
|>their lives?

Bernard Ortiz de Montellano wrote:
|The ball game was a very important part of Mesoamerican  world view, and
|began very early. The oldest Olmec ball court found is  dated 1400 B.C.
|Rubber balls have been found in the Olmec swampy site of El Manati.
|
|Dorothy Hosler has recently published a paper showing thst the techniques
|natives use to make rubber is the same as that reported in early colonial

Does "ulli" mean rubber, or the rubber ball that one plays with?

I can't help but notice that the verb olOloA means 'roll into a ball'
with uppercase denoting long vowels.  Is there a connection between
these words?


From micc at home.com  Wed Feb 16 02:06:34 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:06:34 -0700
Subject: ulli = "rubber" Re: Olmecs
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.190634.0700.>

i beleive it means rubber.....Also I faintly remember reading somewhere
(or was it a bad dream after eating too much molli?)
that the "olli" in colli has to do with roundedness ( as in coltzin,
coliuqui, etc.)

Matthew Montchalin wrote:
>
> Susana Moraleda wrote:
> |>It is said that the Olmecs were the inhabitants of Olman,  (place of
> |>rubber - "ulli").  Would anyone know what was the role of rubber in
> |>their lives?
>
> Bernard Ortiz de Montellano wrote:
> |The ball game was a very important part of Mesoamerican  world view, and
> |began very early. The oldest Olmec ball court found is  dated 1400 B.C.
> |Rubber balls have been found in the Olmec swampy site of El Manati.
> |
> |Dorothy Hosler has recently published a paper showing thst the techniques
> |natives use to make rubber is the same as that reported in early colonial
>
> Does "ulli" mean rubber, or the rubber ball that one plays with?
>
> I can't help but notice that the verb olOloA means 'roll into a ball'
> with uppercase denoting long vowels.  Is there a connection between
> these words?


From GESX1CKAH at aol.com  Wed Feb 16 02:16:48 2000
From: GESX1CKAH at aol.com (GESX1CKAH at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:16:48 -0700
Subject: Olmecs and other quest
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.191648.0700.>

1)  Was there another reason for ball and ballcourts other than recreational
sport?

2)  And can anyone tell me if Xicano (chicano) is a nahuatl word with a
meaning... what does it mean?

thanks

jess


From micc at home.com  Wed Feb 16 02:37:14 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:37:14 -0700
Subject: Olmecs and other quest
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.193714.0700.>

The ball game or "tlachtli" was 10% "recreational" or "entertainment
spectacle"  and 90% ritual and cosmological in importance. Just as any
modern or ancient ritual is pretty much an event for human consumption,
the ball game was a ritualized replaying of the cosmic order.  there are
several books available on the subject (none of which I can find at the
moment!) The hands could not be used in manipulating the solid hard
rubber ball.....ouch!!!!!!!!!

I understand that the tradtional game has survived into this day in
Sinaola, where it has spread once again to other areas of Mesoamerica,
in a energetic 'reconquest" of the Mexican national psyche....


now where did I put my kidney-protection padding....

GESX1CKAH at aol.com wrote:
>
> 1)  Was there another reason for ball and ballcourts other than recreational
> sport?
>
> 2)  And can anyone tell me if Xicano (chicano) is a nahuatl word with a
> meaning... what does it mean?
>
> thanks
>
> jess


From mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br  Wed Feb 16 04:51:24 2000
From: mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br (marcos)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 01:51:24 -0300
Subject: Codex Borgia
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2000.015124.0300.MTEIXEIRA@FEM.UNICAMP.BR>

Someone know this reproduction of the Codex Borgia? It is complete (the
full Codex) and in a god quality printing ? Please, if someone saw this
reproduction, help me, because I want to buy it in www.amazon.com.

The Codex Borgia : A Full-Color Restoration of the Ancient Mexican
Manuscript
by Gisele Diaz, Alan Rodgers (Contributor), Bruce E. Byland (Introduction)

Thank you.

Gláucia


From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com  Wed Feb 16 05:44:06 2000
From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:44:06 -0700
Subject: appropriation of a culture
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.224406.0700.>

Hermanos,

    If I could choose between being ignored and being exploited (again) I
would choose being ignored. There are many of us Chicanos and other
indigenous descendants who do not believe that the warrior past was the
highpoint of our people. We believe that it was a phase that many cultures
pass through, that it served a purpose in time, and that it would have died
out on its own as it did in many other areas. The the European intrusion
stopped the natural evolution of the indigenous peoples. We are left with a
picture of what things were like at that point in time. But we know that not
all our brothers in Mexico and Central America were at the same point of
development. In some places, the warfare and kingdom system had come and
gone, in other places it had never been started, and maybe it never would
have. We can only speculate.
    I would rather that video games study the music, astronomy, poetry,
agriculture, respect for nature, etc., the elements of our culture in which
we build our pride. The warrior societies and ritual sacrifices should be
mentioned in a study of our people, but should not be the principal focus.

                                            A los cuatro vientos, Hermanos,
                                            Henry Vasquez


From micc at home.com  Wed Feb 16 06:06:30 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 23:06:30 -0700
Subject: appropriation of a culture
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.230630.0700.>

It is good to read such wise words from a fellow Chicano!!!  there are
too many 'warriors" out there trying to instill hatred, ethnocentric
racism, and hostility. all in the name of "cultural awareness and
spirituality"!

mario e. aguilar
www.aguila-blanca.com

HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com wrote:
>
> Hermanos,
>
>     If I could choose between being ignored and being exploited (again) I
> would choose being ignored. There are many of us Chicanos and other
> indigenous descendants who do not believe that the warrior past was the
> highpoint of our people. We believe that it was a phase that many cultures
> pass through, that it served a purpose in time, and that it would have died
> out on its own as it did in many other areas. The the European intrusion
> stopped the natural evolution of the indigenous peoples. We are left with a
> picture of what things were like at that point in time. But we know that not
> all our brothers in Mexico and Central America were at the same point of
> development. In some places, the warfare and kingdom system had come and
> gone, in other places it had never been started, and maybe it never would
> have. We can only speculate.
>     I would rather that video games study the music, astronomy, poetry,
> agriculture, respect for nature, etc., the elements of our culture in which
> we build our pride. The warrior societies and ritual sacrifices should be
> mentioned in a study of our people, but should not be the principal focus.
>
>                                             A los cuatro vientos, Hermanos,
>                                             Henry Vasquez


From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Wed Feb 16 11:49:45 2000
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 04:49:45 -0700
Subject: Olmecs and ballgame
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2000.044945.0700.>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I just came across the term "ollamaliztli" to designate the ball game.  What
is its relation with "tlachtli"? and how does one analyze its
semantics?....... and which is the correct one?

Thanks again,
Susana Moraleda

------=_NextPart_000_0083_01BF7876.BFF2D5E0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf"

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:Moraleda;Susana
FN:Susana Moraleda
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
REV:20000216T111000Z
END:VCARD

------=_NextPart_000_0083_01BF7876.BFF2D5E0--


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Wed Feb 16 17:11:32 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:11:32 -0700
Subject: Disks arrived
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2000.101132.0700.>

Dear Joe,

The disks arrived yesterday, and I have had a chance to take a look.  To
save me a little time, could you tell mean what all the files represent?

Fritz

John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From CCBtlevine at aol.com  Thu Feb 17 18:51:16 2000
From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:51:16 -0700
Subject: Olmecs and other quest
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2000.115116.0700.>

In a message dated 02/15/2000 6:40:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, micc at home.co=
m=20
writes:

<< The ball game or "tlachtli" was 10% "recreational" or "entertainment
 spectacle"  and 90% ritual and cosmological in importance. >>

Duran took a different view of the game.  It was a game and it continued to=20
be played long after the conquest.  They played with the fanatacism that=20
soccer is played today in Mexico.  They even had professional athletes,=20
people who did nothing for a living but playing ball.  I highly recommend=20
Duran's description in Chapter 23 of Volume II of the Historia de las Indias=
=20
de Nueva Espa=F1a e Islas de Tierra Firme.

Tom Levine


From micc at home.com  Fri Feb 18 14:40:23 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 07:40:23 -0700
Subject: Olmecs and other quest
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2000.074023.0700.>

Duran, fortunately is not the only source for the ball game.  Tajin has
very elaborate sculptures that re-enforce other writer's description of
the game as a cosmolical battle.

The game may be a re-enactment of a mythical event: the Maya sacred
twin's ball game in the underworld, or the cosmic dance between
Tezcatlipoca and Quetzalcoatl.......


CCBtlevine at aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 02/15/2000 6:40:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, micc at home.co=
> m=20
> writes:
>
> << The ball game or "tlachtli" was 10% "recreational" or "entertainment
>  spectacle"  and 90% ritual and cosmological in importance. >>
>
> Duran took a different view of the game.  It was a game and it continued to=20
> be played long after the conquest.  They played with the fanatacism that=20
> soccer is played today in Mexico.  They even had professional athletes,=20
> people who did nothing for a living but playing ball.  I highly recommend=20
> Duran's description in Chapter 23 of Volume II of the Historia de las Indias=
> =20
> de Nueva Espa=F1a e Islas de Tierra Firme.
>
> Tom Levine


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Fri Feb 18 15:33:49 2000
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:33:49 -0700
Subject: Olmecs and other quest
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2000.083349.0700.>

So which came first, the game or the cosmological pageantry?

Mark



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
grief. Eccl 1:18

To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Fri Feb 18 16:59:48 2000
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:59:48 -0700
Subject: Language Questions
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2000.095948.0700.>

I am having a few quanderies in these moments about word forms and
meanings.

1) tlasotlaloni - why add l with -oni? (tlasohtla, verb, to love,
tlasotlaloni, adjective lovable)

2) icnelilia -  Which adjective, icno or icniuh, forms with the verb
nelihui to mean "give unto someone."

3) imoteicnelih-tzin.  Principally, what happens in the reflexive?  But,
in general ????????.  I have taken a stab with "your have given unto Men,"
but it sounds a bit awkward, so say the least.


Any, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
grief. Eccl 1:18

To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Feb 18 17:43:16 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:43:16 -0700
Subject: Language Questions
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2000.104316.0700.>

On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Mark David Morris wrote:

> I am having a few quanderies in these moments about word forms and
> meanings.
>
> 1) tlasotlaloni - why add l with -oni? (tlasohtla, verb, to love,
> tlasotlaloni, adjective lovable)

this is literally "tlasotlalo," the passive 'he/she is loved' plus -ni,
'the one who' => the one who is loved, i.e., 'loveable'


>
> 2) icnelilia -  Which adjective, icno or icniuh, forms with the verb
> nelihui to mean "give unto someone."
>

hmmmm..neither?

> 3) imoteicnelih-tzin.  Principally, what happens in the reflexive?  But,
> in general ????????.  I have taken a stab with "your have given unto Men,"
> but it sounds a bit awkward, so say the least.
>

"your givingness"?



>
> Any, any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Mark Morris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
> grief. Eccl 1:18
>
> To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
> regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
> are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
> sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71
>
> MDM, PhD Candidate
> Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
>
>


Michael McCafferty
C.E.L.T.
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

*******************************************************************************
"Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
from the me that others don't know
to the other me that I don't know.

-Juan Ramon Jimenez

*******************************************************************************


From CCBtlevine at aol.com  Fri Feb 18 21:03:34 2000
From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:03:34 -0700
Subject: Olmecs and other quest
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2000.140334.0700.>

In a message dated 02/18/2000 7:37:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mdmorris at indiana.edu writes:

<< So which came first, the game or the cosmological pageantry?

 Mark
  >>
Of course everything has its cosmic beginnings.  American football is the
reinactment of the battle of Troy.  The 11 leaders of the Trojan nation
backed by their gods, against the 11 leaders of the Greek, supported by their
gods all trying to get control over the beautiful ball, Helen.  At the same
time they are mad at Helen for being two faced, so they kick her to the sky,
trying to put her through the goal posts where they can safely score with
her.  The half time pagentry represents the beauty of ancient Greece.  Now,
can anyone prove that this isn't true?  Does anyone care?


From mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br  Sat Feb 19 03:17:12 2000
From: mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br (marcos)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:17:12 -0300
Subject: En: Codex Borgia
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2000.001712.0300.MTEIXEIRA@FEM.UNICAMP.BR>

----------
> De: Heather Hess <heatherhess at hotmail.com>
> Para: mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br
> Assunto: Re: Codex Borgia
> Data: Sexta-feira, 18 de Fevereiro de 2000 12:31
>
> I have seen the book.  My friend Tlanizpilli teaches nahautl, aztec dance

> and various related teachings in guadalajara.  All of the info she has is
in
> spanish with the exception of this book.  The book as far as I know is
> accurate with the exception of the colours.  The colours are not exactly
the
> same as in the original codices. When I get back to Canada I am ordering
the
> book.  It is very difficult to get accurate info on the Aztec Calendar,
> Codices and Aztec Astrology in English.  Does anyone know any good books
> with respect to the Tonalamatl or the interpretation of the calendar.
> Arturo Meza is, according to many friends I have in Guadalajara, the
leading
> authority on the interpretation of the Aztec Calendar Stone.  Apparently
his
> information is accurate.  I have his books but am not fluent in Spanish
and
> am working on getting them translated.
>
> I realize this message is not 100% Nahautl but it is all related!
> Thanks for any input!
>
> Yolohtzin
>
>
> >From: "marcos" <mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br>
> >To: <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
> >Subject: Codex Borgia
> >Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 01:51:24 -0300
> >
> >Someone know this reproduction of the Codex Borgia? It is complete (the
> >full Codex) and in a god quality printing ? Please, if someone saw this
> >reproduction, help me, because I want to buy it in www.amazon.com.
> >
> >The Codex Borgia : A Full-Color Restoration of the Ancient Mexican
> >Manuscript
> >by Gisele Diaz, Alan Rodgers (Contributor), Bruce E. Byland
(Introduction)
> >
> >Thank you.
> >
> >Gláucia
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>


From CCBtlevine at aol.com  Sat Feb 19 02:23:29 2000
From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:23:29 -0700
Subject: Olmecs and other quest
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2000.192329.0700.>

I apologize for my silly reply.  My initial reference to Duran's description
was simply to provide an eye-witness account of the ball game among the
Azteca and neighbors.  Whatever its origins, it seems that it became simply a
game that brought happiness to many people.

Tom Levine


From mikegaby at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 19 07:47:40 2000
From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 07:47:40 GMT
Subject: En: Codex Borgia
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2000.074740.GMT.MIKEGABY@HOTMAIL.COM>

I would advise being cautious when interpreting information on Mesoamerican
Calenders and thier related arts.  Much of the information has been
distorted from the original sources, syphoning through centuries of
colonialism and conflict.  I am not sure how one deems them to be
"accurate", relative to what? But keep in mind that this was secret info
even before the Spanish arrived.  In my experience, those that share this
too freely may not be as well informed as you might think.
There is still much discord raised on simply the correct correlation date,
let alone the more involved of the calender's arts.  Divining is a business
of sorts, and every business has it's shadier side.  Let the buyer beware.
Have fun peeling the onion...it will make you cry, but what flavor!
Mike

>From: "marcos" <mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br>
>To: "lista nahuatl" <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
>Subject: En: Codex Borgia
>Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:17:12 -0300
>
>
>
>----------
> > De: Heather Hess <heatherhess at hotmail.com>
> > Para: mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br
> > Assunto: Re: Codex Borgia
> > Data: Sexta-feira, 18 de Fevereiro de 2000 12:31
> >
> > I have seen the book.  My friend Tlanizpilli teaches nahautl, aztec
>dance
>
> > and various related teachings in guadalajara.  All of the info she has
>is
>in
> > spanish with the exception of this book.  The book as far as I know is
> > accurate with the exception of the colours.  The colours are not exactly
>the
> > same as in the original codices. When I get back to Canada I am ordering
>the
> > book.  It is very difficult to get accurate info on the Aztec Calendar,
> > Codices and Aztec Astrology in English.  Does anyone know any good books
> > with respect to the Tonalamatl or the interpretation of the calendar.
> > Arturo Meza is, according to many friends I have in Guadalajara, the
>leading
> > authority on the interpretation of the Aztec Calendar Stone.  Apparently
>his
> > information is accurate.  I have his books but am not fluent in Spanish
>and
> > am working on getting them translated.
> >
> > I realize this message is not 100% Nahautl but it is all related!
> > Thanks for any input!
> >
> > Yolohtzin
> >
> >
> > >From: "marcos" <mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br>
> > >To: <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
> > >Subject: Codex Borgia
> > >Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 01:51:24 -0300
> > >
> > >Someone know this reproduction of the Codex Borgia? It is complete (the
> > >full Codex) and in a god quality printing ? Please, if someone saw this
> > >reproduction, help me, because I want to buy it in www.amazon.com.
> > >
> > >The Codex Borgia : A Full-Color Restoration of the Ancient Mexican
> > >Manuscript
> > >by Gisele Diaz, Alan Rodgers (Contributor), Bruce E. Byland
>(Introduction)
> > >
> > >Thank you.
> > >
> > >Gl�ucia
> > >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> >

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From maffiej at spot.colorado.edu  Sun Feb 20 20:53:38 2000
From: maffiej at spot.colorado.edu (Maffie James)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 13:53:38 -0700
Subject: call for papers
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2000.135338.0700.>

Please circulate widely. Thankyou.


CALL FOR PAPERS

SOCIAL EPISTEMOLOGY: A JOURNAL OF KNOWLEDGE, CULTURE AND POLICY invites
submissions (3000-4000 words) in comparative philosophy or
comparative anthropology of knowledge, sociology of knowledge, religion,
or history of ideas that address the following topic: How important is
truth to epistemology and knowledge? While submissions may be grounded
primarily in one philosophical tradition (e.g. African, East Asian, South
Asian, Latin American, Western [Anglo-American or Continental]), they must
discuss the topic in a comparative manner.

	While truth has long occupied the center stage of many Western,
South Asian, Post-Han East Asian, and Arican epistemologies and
conceptions of knowledge, many Western philosophers have recently begun to
question and reject the centrality of truth and develop alternative,
non-truth-centered conceptions of epistemology and knowledge.The apparent
aberrant character of these alternatives is diminished by recent
scholarship in Pre-Han East Asian philosophies such as Confucianism and
Taoism which argues that these philosophical traditions lacked the concept
of truth and thus did not employ the notion of truth in their
epistemologies or conceptions of knowledge. Is truth essential to
knowledge and to epistemology? Do all philosophical traditions possess the
concept of truth and incorporate it into their epistemologies? If they do
not, what they they use instead of truth?



Submissions are due 12/31/00. Inquiries and submissions should be directed
to:

James Maffie
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Ft. Collins, CO 80523-1781
USA

e-mail: maffiej at lamar.colostate.edu


From mikegaby at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 20 23:11:42 2000
From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:11:42 GMT
Subject: En: Codex Borgia
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2000.231142.GMT.MIKEGABY@HOTMAIL.COM>

Sorry,
I did not mean to send this to the list.
Mike


>From: "mike gaby" <mikegaby at hotmail.com>
>To: mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br, nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
>Subject: Re: En: Codex Borgia
>Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 07:47:40 GMT
>
>I would advise being cautious when interpreting information on Mesoamerican
>Calenders and thier related arts.  Much of the information has been
>distorted from the original sources, syphoning through centuries of
>colonialism and conflict.  I am not sure how one deems them to be
>"accurate", relative to what? But keep in mind that this was secret info
>even before the Spanish arrived.  In my experience, those that share this
>too freely may not be as well informed as you might think.
>There is still much discord raised on simply the correct correlation date,
>let alone the more involved of the calender's arts.  Divining is a business
>of sorts, and every business has it's shadier side.  Let the buyer beware.
>Have fun peeling the onion...it will make you cry, but what flavor!
>Mike
>
>>From: "marcos" <mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br>
>>To: "lista nahuatl" <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
>>Subject: En: Codex Borgia
>>Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:17:12 -0300
>>
>>
>>
>>----------
>> > De: Heather Hess <heatherhess at hotmail.com>
>> > Para: mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br
>> > Assunto: Re: Codex Borgia
>> > Data: Sexta-feira, 18 de Fevereiro de 2000 12:31
>> >
>> > I have seen the book.  My friend Tlanizpilli teaches nahautl, aztec
>>dance
>>
>> > and various related teachings in guadalajara.  All of the info she has
>>is
>>in
>> > spanish with the exception of this book.  The book as far as I know is
>> > accurate with the exception of the colours.  The colours are not
>>exactly
>>the
>> > same as in the original codices. When I get back to Canada I am
>>ordering
>>the
>> > book.  It is very difficult to get accurate info on the Aztec Calendar,
>> > Codices and Aztec Astrology in English.  Does anyone know any good
>>books
>> > with respect to the Tonalamatl or the interpretation of the calendar.
>> > Arturo Meza is, according to many friends I have in Guadalajara, the
>>leading
>> > authority on the interpretation of the Aztec Calendar Stone.
>>Apparently
>>his
>> > information is accurate.  I have his books but am not fluent in Spanish
>>and
>> > am working on getting them translated.
>> >
>> > I realize this message is not 100% Nahautl but it is all related!
>> > Thanks for any input!
>> >
>> > Yolohtzin
>> >
>> >
>> > >From: "marcos" <mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br>
>> > >To: <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
>> > >Subject: Codex Borgia
>> > >Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 01:51:24 -0300
>> > >
>> > >Someone know this reproduction of the Codex Borgia? It is complete
>>(the
>> > >full Codex) and in a god quality printing ? Please, if someone saw
>>this
>> > >reproduction, help me, because I want to buy it in www.amazon.com.
>> > >
>> > >The Codex Borgia : A Full-Color Restoration of the Ancient Mexican
>> > >Manuscript
>> > >by Gisele Diaz, Alan Rodgers (Contributor), Bruce E. Byland
>>(Introduction)
>> > >
>> > >Thank you.
>> > >
>> > >Gl�ucia
>> > >
>> >
>> > ______________________________________________________
>> > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>> >
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From lm412 at is9.nyu.edu  Mon Feb 21 02:38:49 2000
From: lm412 at is9.nyu.edu (Lucas Molina)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 21:38:49 -0500
Subject: not a pot head, just wondering
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2000.213849.0500.LM412@IS9.NYU.EDU>

i'm not a drug user or anything, but i came across the word "yauhtli" in
vaillant's "Aztecs of Mexico".  he called it indian hemp, but i thought
all hemp was indian?

i'm also curious to know what everyone thinks about the trouble that's
been going on at UNAM.

thanks,

Lucas Molina


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Mon Feb 21 05:23:30 2000
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 00:23:30 -0500
Subject: not a pot head, just wondering
In-Reply-To: <38B0A539.F766C56D@is9.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2000.002330.0500.MDMORRIS@INDIANA.EDU>

Lucas,

Simeon's dictionary gives the following definition:  Planta que tiene el
olor y el sabor del anis; se la echaba al fuego en ves de incienso.
Servia para curar gran numero de enfermedades, particularmente las de los
ojos (ref. Sahagun, Clavijero and Francisco Hernandez).  That about the
eyes sounds like marijuana (African hemp?) but I've never thought it had
the smell nor taste of anis.  This yauhtli, then, may or may not be a hemp
plant, with common characteristics with the marijuana plant, which again,
I believe originates in Africa--but maybe the Rastafarians just convinced
me of that. It deserves further investigating, and I could recommend the
Florentine Codice (Sahagun) or this Nova plantarum animalium et mineralium
mexicanorum historia by Francisco Hernandez.
Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
grief. Eccl 1:18

To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Mon Feb 21 10:38:52 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 05:38:52 -0500
Subject: not a pot head, just wondering
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.96.1000221001112.10279A-100000@falstaff.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2000.053852.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

The term "hemp" has been used to designate other plants beside cannabis.
<Massane>, used by the early French in the Illinois Country and translated
consistently into English as "hemp" was not cannabis. I believe the early
historic use of "hemp" refers to any twine-producing plant.

MIchael McCafferty

On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Mark David Morris wrote:

> Lucas,
>
> Simeon's dictionary gives the following definition:  Planta que tiene el
> olor y el sabor del anis; se la echaba al fuego en ves de incienso.
> Servia para curar gran numero de enfermedades, particularmente las de los
> ojos (ref. Sahagun, Clavijero and Francisco Hernandez).  That about the
> eyes sounds like marijuana (African hemp?) but I've never thought it had
> the smell nor taste of anis.  This yauhtli, then, may or may not be a hemp
> plant, with common characteristics with the marijuana plant, which again,
> I believe originates in Africa--but maybe the Rastafarians just convinced
> me of that. It deserves further investigating, and I could recommend the
> Florentine Codice (Sahagun) or this Nova plantarum animalium et mineralium
> mexicanorum historia by Francisco Hernandez.
> Mark Morris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
> grief. Eccl 1:18
>
> To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
> regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
> are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
> sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71
>
> MDM, PhD Candidate
> Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
>
>


Michael McCafferty
C.E.L.T.
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

*******************************************************************************
"Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
from the me that others don't know
to the other me that I don't know.

-Juan Ramon Jimenez

*******************************************************************************


From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Mon Feb 21 11:48:35 2000
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:48:35 +0100
Subject: not a pot head, just wondering
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2000.124835.0100.JUERGEN.STOWASSER@UNIVIE.AC.AT>

Due to the Codex Badianus (Martin de la Cruz, Libellus de Medicinalibus
Indorum Herbis, 1552) "yauhtli" had a magic iuse for crossing rivers:
"El
que quiera pasar con seguridad un rio, o agua, ha de humedecerse el
pecho
con un liquido de las plantas yauhtli y tepepapaloquilitl molidas en
agua.
Ha de llevar en la mano un berilo, una cabeza y entranas de ostra, una
sardónica y los ojos de un gran pez encerrados en la boca." (56r)The
commentator of the Badinao-edition by the Fondo de Cultura Economica
(México
1991) identifies "yauhtli" as the pericón (color verde obscuro-morado;
Tagetes esp). The botanist Reko classifies the plant as Tagetes florida
(although Sahagun differentiates between "yauhtli" and the Tagetes
"macuilxochitl" and  "cempoalxochitl").
Tagetes have been and are still used as incense but are also consumed as

spice, tea or are smoked with tobacco (maybe that for the comparison
with
the hemp which originates from India/Mesopotamia).There are various
refernces about the narcotic effects of the plant but - as i know - no
reliable toxicological study.
To yauhtli cf Ortiz de Montellano, Las hierbas de Tláloc, Estudios de
Cultura Nahuatl 14/1980 (he mentions also also yauhtli if I remember
well).

                                    ciao, Juergen
pd: any ideas about the etymology? I tried to consult Simeon but found
nothing (maybe a relation with "yauitl" (maíz negro) as a kind of
refernce
to the dark colour of yauhtli?)

Lucas Molina schrieb:

> i'm not a drug user or anything, but i came across the word "yauhtli"
in
> vaillant's "Aztecs of Mexico".  he called it indian hemp, but i
thought
> all hemp was indian?
>
> i'm also curious to know what everyone thinks about the trouble that's

> been going on at UNAM.
>
> thanks,
>
> Lucas Molina

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
Austria
tel: 01/ 524 54 60
0676/ 398 66 79


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Mon Feb 21 15:40:22 2000
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:40:22 -0500
Subject: not a pot head, just wondering
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.96.1000221053632.15031D-100000@othello.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2000.104022.0500.MDMORRIS@INDIANA.EDU>

Michael,

Thanks for the clarification on hemp.  I think you are right about the
English tradition of the word. So, this hemp with yellow flowers which
grows wild in sandy soils in the midwest is Massane and is native to the
Americas? Thanks also for explaining tlasotlaloni.  I promise to
read Carochi more carefully before asking further questions.  Mark

On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Michael Mccafferty wrote:

> The term "hemp" has been used to designate other plants beside cannabis.
> <Massane>, used by the early French in the Illinois Country and translated
> consistently into English as "hemp" was not cannabis. I believe the early
> historic use of "hemp" refers to any twine-producing plant.
>
> MIchael McCafferty
>
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Mark David Morris wrote:
>
> > Lucas,
> >
> > Simeon's dictionary gives the following definition:  Planta que tiene el
> > olor y el sabor del anis; se la echaba al fuego en ves de incienso.
> > Servia para curar gran numero de enfermedades, particularmente las de los
> > ojos (ref. Sahagun, Clavijero and Francisco Hernandez).  That about the
> > eyes sounds like marijuana (African hemp?) but I've never thought it had
> > the smell nor taste of anis.  This yauhtli, then, may or may not be a hemp
> > plant, with common characteristics with the marijuana plant, which again,
> > I believe originates in Africa--but maybe the Rastafarians just convinced
> > me of that. It deserves further investigating, and I could recommend the
> > Florentine Codice (Sahagun) or this Nova plantarum animalium et mineralium
> > mexicanorum historia by Francisco Hernandez.
> > Mark Morris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
> > grief. Eccl 1:18
> >
> > To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
> > regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
> > are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
> > sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71
> >
> > MDM, PhD Candidate
> > Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
> >
> >
>
>
> Michael McCafferty
> C.E.L.T.
> 307 Memorial Hall
> Indiana University
> Bloomington, Indiana
> 47405
> mmccaffe at indiana.edu
>
> *******************************************************************************
> "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
> from the me that others don't know
> to the other me that I don't know.
>
> -Juan Ramon Jimenez
>
> *******************************************************************************
>
>



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
grief. Eccl 1:18

To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Feb 22 11:51:52 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 06:51:52 -0500
Subject: iyauhtli (fwd)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2000.065152.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Dr. Karttunen has asked me to forward this message to the list.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:40:51 -0500
From: Frances Karttunen <karttu at nantucket.net>
To: Michael Mccafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
Subject: iyauhtli

According to Andrews and Hassig, whom I consider very reliable, yauhtli
(which is actually iya:uhtli) is Tagetes lucida, the Mexican sweet-scented
marigold (with its distinctive anise-like scent).

See p. 250 of A&H's translation of Ruiz de Alarcon's Treatise on the Heathen
Superstitions that Today Live Among the Indians Native to this New Spain
(University of Oklahoma Press).

Using R de A as a source is always painful, because he was a ruthless and
thorough inquisitor who hounded indigenous healers and practioners of
traditional Mesoamerican divination.  For that very reason he managed to
extract and record all sorts of information about herbal medicine and
everyday practices.

A&H's edition is not only a very fine translation, but it included indices
of ritual and supernatural names, names of medical practitioners mentioned
by R de A, medicinal plants and other substances, place-names, and
paraphrases of the incantations R de A recorded.

Fran


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Feb 22 15:55:19 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 08:55:19 -0700
Subject: Article of interest
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2000.085519.0700.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

 Stiebels, Barbara
"Noun-Verb Symmetries in Nahuatl Nominalizations."
_Natural language & linguistic theory._ vol. 17 num. 4 (NOV  1999)
PG 783


I am also happy to report that the Nahuat-l web page gets approximatley
1,000 hits a month



John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From garatea at gaia.es  Fri Feb 25 15:17:17 2000
From: garatea at gaia.es (Jokin Garatea (by way of "John F. Schwaller"
 <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>))
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:17:17 -0700
Subject: Multilinguae International Congress
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2000.081717.0700.GARATEA@GAIA.ES>

call for papers

Multilinguae congress. A way to promote the use of ITs, Multimedia and
language industries in lesser used languages. San Sebastian, Spain 8-9
November 2000.


Papers and/or workshops (of up to 30-45 minutes duration) from
academics, software and multimedia developers and distributors, experts
in the digital distribution channel and information organisations
(including libraries, government, and the private sector) are sought for

presentation at the congress. All papers & presentations should be
designed for non-specialist audiences, and connect theory and practice.

Abstracts of up to 500 words should be sent to me directly
(garatea at gaia.es) for consideration by the committee, before end of
march (31st of March).

BACKGROUND

Within the European Union, there are more than 40 autochthonous
languages in everyday use. Of these, only 11 are official languages of
the Union: Danish, Dutch, English, Finnish, French, German, Greek,
Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and Swedish. In addition, Irish is a
"treaty language".

Of Europe's 370 million citizens, nearly 50 million speak a language
other than the official language of the State in which they live. These
other languages are an integral part of our cultural heritage. They
include some of the oldest languages in the Western world, and most of
them have rich cultural, literary and folk traditions.

Technology is simply one of the tools with which we involve as community

members in learning and using minority languages in our daily lives. It
is also a link with the culture that surrounds most of us today and
which is so attractive to the younger generations. What we would like to

present, briefly in this Congress is that new technologies have, among
others, the potential to:

* Document and promote culture and minority speech
* Help to revitalise language
* Promote the status of the language as a viable medium of communication

expand and strengthen minority language communities by creating an
audience and purpose for writing in minority languages
* Make Minority language resources available beyond educational
institutions.
* Expedite production and distribution of relevant, quality Minority
language materials and resources.
* Provide opportunities to create multimedia projects
* Excite learners to become motivated, engaged in the learning process
and producers in the target language.
* Aspects of multi-modal capability include integrated text, sound, and
graphics which are suitable for a range of learner types
* Increase student-student communication and collaboration
* Enhance and expand instructional strategies
* Build upon/enhance existing and effective pedagogy
* Promote literacy skills
* Promote computer literacy. Computers add to the study of minority
language, and computer skills that are learned transfer to other courses

and aspects of students' lives.


For all the above mentioned we must have a clear idea of the following
statements:
* The market is there. 50 million of potential European users/buyers, as

minority speakers.
* The industry is there but a bit dispersed and not very well known.

OBJECTIVES
The organisation of the Multilinguae International Congress, which is
organised by GAIA, the Telecommunications Cluster of the Basque Country
and will be co-financed by the European Commission (DG XXII), intends,
on the one side, to facilitate contacts between small and medium
European companies, technologists, content providers,  and researchers
belonging to the Multimedia and Software sector working for Minority or
endangered languages (if we are talking about IT, apart from English
almost all languages of the world), and, on the other side, to provoke
the utilisation of this Multimedia tools by the education,
administration bodies and end users coming from minority communities.

The general objective of the MULTILINGUAE congress is to develop
channels, links and activities between institutions representing similar

collectives in different cultural and geographical areas where minority
languages are spoken for interchange of experiences, best practices and
for the realisation of joint actions with a view to promoting Multimedia

Development and the Linguistic Diversity of the EU. All this, providing:

competitive expansion of the companies of the sector, the development of

new business activities, promotion of employment and innovation in the
creation of support infrastructures for the European Linguistic
Diversity and for technological and socio-economic development, by
giving incentives to investment in research, training and inter-regional

and inter-company co-operation.

Why to organise the multilinguae international congress.
It will take more than conferences to keep most European Minority
Languages from becoming extinct. If all it took was conferences, then
the minority languages would not be in the sad condition that most of
them are in now because many of them have been exposed to conferences
before. If not conferences, what then? Lots of different approaches have

been tried. These are not startling innovations; what we need is a
critical mass of committed people, and this critical mass can only be
created through continuous capillary infiltration of information and
encouragement. This conference is intended to be a part of such an
effort. It will be disseminated not only to those who attended of the
sessions, but to a much wider audience consisting of Minority and
non-Minority individuals and institutions because of its needed market
oriented approach.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Jokin Garatea                         GAIA
International Department              C\ Camino Portuetxe, 14
Email: garatea at gaia.es                Edificio Ibaeta 1
                                      20018, San Sebastian
                                      Spain
                                      Tel. +34 943 31 66 66
                                      Fax. +34 943 31 10 66
----------------------------------------------------------------


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Feb 25 17:11:15 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 10:11:15 -0700
Subject: Misidentification (fwd)
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2000.101115.0700.>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:37:23 -0700 (MST)
From: Koontz John E <John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU>
To: Michael Mccafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
Subject: Misidentification

>>From the last emailed SSILA Bulletin:

Mis-identifying the colonized
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>From Timothy Dunnigan (dunni001 at maroon.tc.umn.edu) 14 Feb 2000:

A colleague has asked for one or two references dealing with indigenous
peoples of the Americas that would help him document how colonizers tend
to mis-identify the colonized.  Peter Wells is a well-known archaeologist
who studies "Iron-Age" cultures of Europe, particularly the ancient
"German" tribes.  The ethnic labels used by Caesar, Tacitus and other
early chroniclers tend to be accepted without question by those who use
their works today.  His own researches indicate that the complex cultural
divisions that existed in ancient times are inaccurately reflected in
the exogenous ethnic designations.

I told him about the naming problems that arose when Europeans attempted
to record the various cultures and languages of the Americas, and how
indigenous peoples are now attempting to reclaim names and identities
that were largely excluded from the history books.  He knew what I was
talking about because he had already read Berkhofer, and had assigned
some of his writings in a course.  I mentioned the "synonymy" sections
in the _Handbook of North American Indians_ that appear at the end of
chapters on individual tribes, but I was wondering whether readers of
the SSILA Bulletin might know of a more general discussion of this
problem, such as for Central Mexico where pejorative names used by
Tlaxcalans and Aztecs names were imposed on neighboring groups by the
Spanish.  I know the common linguistic folklore about this phenomenon,
but can anyone suggest specific articles or books?

Thanks for any help you can offer.  Replies can be addressed to me or
directly to Peter at <wells001 at maroon.tc.umn.edu>.

                                                           --Tim Dunnigan
                                                  University of Minnesota
                                             (dunni001 at maroon.tc.umn.edu)


From maffiej at spot.colorado.edu  Sat Feb 26 12:27:29 2000
From: maffiej at spot.colorado.edu (Maffie James)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 05:27:29 -0700
Subject: Forwarded message
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2000.052729.0700.>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:23:19 -0800
From: Helmut Wautischer <Helmut.Wautischer at SONOMA.EDU>
To: philosop at louisiana.edu, jcs-online at sol.zynet.net
Subject: Forwarded message

Please reply directly to
Dr. Michael  Ripinsky-Naxon
mrn at csacs.org
*********************************************

REQUEST FOR PHOTOS/SLIDES

I am in the midst of a 2- volume book project, entitled THE BOOK OF
SHAMANS.  The volume I am writing is entitled SHAMANISM IN THE  AMERICAS.
The other, SHAMANISM IN EURASIA,  is authored by Mihaly Hoppal.  Each
volume will contain over 250 illustrations.

In the last chapter, I  will address contemporary shamanism.  The issues,
among others, will include the surviving  vestiges of shamanism in North,
Central, and South America, as well as the  contemporary Western scene.
This will involve topics ranging from syncretism to curanderismo  and
healers, from ayahuasqueros and ShamanTours to neo-shamanism and
techno-shamanism. At least 20 additional illustrations can still be
incorporated into this section of the book.

Should you have any material that you think may be  suitable for inclusion
in such a project, and would like  to see it published, please, contact me
as soon as possible at mrn at csacs.org

All submitted materials will be returned, and  naturally full photo credit
acknowledgment will be given in the book.

Thank you,
________________________________
Dr. Michael  Ripinsky-Naxon
Professor
PMB 504
44489 Town Center Way, Suite D
Palm  Desert, CA  92260-2723
U.S.A.
mrn at csacs.org
*********************************************


From CCBtlevine at aol.com  Mon Feb 28 15:47:29 2000
From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (by way of "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:47:29 -0700
Subject: Az: Aztlan date
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.084729.0700.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

In a message dated 02/23/2000 10:03:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
huitzi at operamail.com writes:

<< Does the name Aztecs referred to all of the tribes under the
 domination of the Mexicas during the 1500s?

 Victor Gonzalez >>

No. I am referring only to the Aztlantlaca according to Tezozomoc
who were called by others Azteca and changed their name to Mexica
and Tenochca.  Prior to arriving in the Mexico Valley they
included the Tarascans (according to Duran) Pur=E9pecha?, and
Malinalcans.  They seem to have arrived in the Mexico Valley in
the late mid 13th century and were conquered by the Tecpanecas in
the late 13th Century. It is this specific group to which I refer.

Thomas Levine


From huitzi at operamail.com  Mon Feb 28 15:46:55 2000
From: huitzi at operamail.com (Victor Gonzalez (by way of "John F. Schwaller"
 <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>))
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:46:55 -0700
Subject: Az: Aztlan date
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.084655.0700.HUITZI@OPERAMAIL.COM>

>Is there a recent consensus about the date the Aztecs left Aztlan?

Were the Aztecs called Aztecs or were they called Mexicas when
they left Aztlan?

Does the name Aztecs referred to all of the tribes under the
domination of the Mexicas during the 1500s?

Victor Gonzalez


From CCBtlevine at aol.com  Mon Feb 28 15:46:32 2000
From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (by way of "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:46:32 -0700
Subject: Az: Aztlan date
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.084632.0700.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

Is there a recent consensus about the date the Aztecs left Aztlan?

Tezozomoc - Cr=F3nica Mexicana says 1069.
The Timetables of History by Grum says 1118.
Tibon - 1111.
Prescott - 1091.

Tom Levine


From Lawrenc846 at aol.com  Mon Feb 28 15:47:18 2000
From: Lawrenc846 at aol.com (by way of "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:47:18 -0700
Subject: Az: Aztlan date
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.084718.0700.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

In a message dated 2/23/00 1:02:05 PM, you wrote:

From:    Victor Gonzalez <huitzi at operamail.com>

>Is there a recent consensus about the date the Aztecs left Aztlan?

Were the Aztecs called Aztecs or were they called Mexicas when
they left Aztlan?

Does the name Aztecs referred to all of the tribes under the
domination of the Mexicas during the 1500s?

------------------------------>>
Aztecs is used in the early colonial sources to mean people of
Aztlan. Aztlan in this context means the mythical homeland of the
people who in historical times were known as the Mexica.  So
Aztecs (or more properly Azteca) as so used refers to the Mexica
(and others) in a mythical era before the beginning of history.

The term was revived in the 19th century (if not in the 18th
century) to mean the people of the dominant state in Central
Mexico at the arrival of the Europeans.

That state was in theory an alliance of three powers, hence
scholars sometimes call it the Empire of the Triple Alliance.
These three powers were: Tenochtitlan (Mexica), Texcoco (Acolhua)
and Tlacopan (Tepaneca).

The people of Tenochtitlan called themselves Mexica and they
refered to their capital as Mexico-Tenochtitlan.  Since they
claimed dynastic intermarriage (of their royal family) with
Culhuacan, their Empire was sometimes called a Culhua empire.

For the historical period it is confusing and, in the usual
meaning of the term, erroneous to referal to "tribes" or "tribal
society" in the Valley of Mexico.  The area was divided up among
various states and, after the fall of Tollan, was part of at
least two Empires-- that of the Tepanecs (or Tepaneca) of
Azcapotzalco and, in the last prehispanic phase, that of the
Empire of the Triple Alliance (Tenochtitlan-Texcoco-Tlacopan).

LH Feldman
Lawrenc846 at aol.com


From ochoa at scd.hp.com  Mon Feb 28 15:48:25 2000
From: ochoa at scd.hp.com (Marcos Ochoa (by way of "John F. Schwaller"
 <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>))
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:48:25 -0700
Subject: Az: Aztlan date
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.084825.0700.OCHOA@SCD.HP.COM>

> Aztecs is used in the early colonial sources to mean people of
> Aztlan. Aztlan in this context means the mythical homeland of the
> people who in historical times were known as the Mexica.  So
> Aztecs (or more properly Azteca) as so used refers to the Mexica
> (and others) in a mythical era before the beginning of history.
> ...
>
> LH Feldman

We were raised to believe Aztlan was real. Only in euro-centric
sources did I learn of the so-called myth. Where/how did this
myth-thing originate?

-Marc.


From gomezjim at netscape.net  Mon Feb 28 15:49:30 2000
From: gomezjim at netscape.net (jim gomez (by way of "John F. Schwaller"
 <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>))
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:49:30 -0700
Subject: AZ: Aztec Date (2)
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.084930.0700.GOMEZJIM@NETSCAPE.NET>

Whoops. On second thought, I should detail my original post a bit
more:

I.  M.E. Smith (1984:174) notes that the general consensus in the
histories is that most Chichimec migrations occurred at, or after,
the fall of Tollan.

The Aztlan movements are here treated here as a subset of the
Chichimec (non-Nahuatl). The Aztlaneca are Nahuatl, such as the
Culhua (of Toltec heritage) and Mexica. For relevant distinctions
on the use of these terms in the histories, see P. Carrasco (1971)
and Smith (1984:163-165). Unfortunately, the most recent study by
Smith (1996) is too general in his migration section to be of
help in tracking individual groups.

N. Davies refers to the date 1111 as the "traditional date" for
the departure of the Mexicas from Aztlan (1987:16) and in all
probability, they were not a homogeneous group. Note that Duran's
history falls under the Cronica X textual group, but the Mexica
are also mentioned in Sahagun (bk 10:195), Anales de Tlateloca
(1948:31f), and Torquemada (1969, I:78).

In the Historia de los Mexicanos por Sus Pinturas, The Mexica
(Tenochca) depart from Aztlan in 1116 (Nicholson, 1978:289). And
in the Codex Boturini, shown in many discussions of Aztec history,
also has a departure date of 1116, 1 Tecpatl (or one cycle later,
1168 as in Seler); see Nicholson's table (10.1: 1978).

II.   The dates Smith tabulates as arrival dates of various
Nahuatl groups fall after A.D. 1175 agrees with the date Davies
(1977:410-414) gives as the probable date for the fall of Tollan.
For instance, when this date is combined with the cross over of
Xolotl and his Chichimecs to Culhua in 5 Tecpatl, this is 1179.

In tabulating Nahuatl "arrival dates," Smith (184:167) considers
convergence to within a decade or so to be significant. He notes
that at least four other calendar counts in use at the time,
other than the prevalent Tenochca count (1 Acatl =3D 1519), and
is major obstacle, among others, when comparing different
histories.

Also compare with E.M. Moctezuma (1992:3), who dates the
destruction to around A.D. 1165 and calls the Aztec departure
from Tula as a liberation from the Toltecs (i.e., from probable
service, tribute, and obedience).

III.  For other year-count annuals, pictorial and textual, see
also Nicholson (1978:289). For an interesting perspective on the
historicity question and who appears to accept the main accounts
at face value, see P. Carrasco (1950,1971).

Ethnohistorians Kirchoff & J. Moreno have also been prepared to
take the general migration saga at face value and have sought to
locate Aztlan, Chicomoztoc, and Teoculuacan on the modern map (N.
Davies "Aztec Origins" BAR 402ii, 1988:659).

IV.  The archeological indicators for dating the fall of Tula
(around A.D 1200), are still of a more general nature in
comparison to dating the relatively fast paced migrations, which
is the main concern here.

See "Tula of the Toltecs: Excavations & Survey" D.M. Healen ed.
(1989, chap 3.; 247-248) and "Tula and the Toltecs" M.P. Weaver
(1993, 439-441) for discussions on the decline and final fall of
Tula with further breakdowns on the date  "A.D 1200". See also
the "Chronological Research in Central Mexico" section in AnMeso
1996.

 jim


From Lawrenc846 at aol.com  Mon Feb 28 15:48:59 2000
From: Lawrenc846 at aol.com (by way of "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:48:59 -0700
Subject: Az: Aztlan date
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.084859.0700.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

In a message dated 2/25/00 1:02:07 PM, you wrote:

<<We were raised to believe Aztlan was real. Only in euro-centric
sources did I learn of the so-called myth. Where/how did this
myth-thing originate?>>

The Mexica themselves claimed that they burnt their history books
and rewrote their earlier history.  The Florentine Codex has a
statement to this effect. In other words the Mexica themselves
said it was myth.

... Then they devised the book of days, the book of years, the
count of the years, the book of dreams.  They arranged the
reckoning just as it has been kept.  And thus was time recorded
during all the time the  Tolteca, the Tepaneca, the Mexica, and
all the Chichimeca reign endured.  No longer can it be remembered,
no longer can it be investigated... The history of it was saved,
but it was burned when Itzcoatl ruled in Mexico.  A council of
rulers of Mexico took place.  They said: "It is not necessary for
all the common people to know of the writings; government will be
defamed, and this will only spread sorcery in the land..."

Or if you prefer to read it in Nahua--  Niman ic quijiocuxque, in
tonalpoalli, in xioamatl, in xippoalli, in temjc amatl.
Qujtecpanque in iuhomopix: auh ic otlaotlatoctiloc in jxquijch
cauijtl omanca tolteca tlatocaiotl, tepaneca tlatocaiotl, mexica
tlatocaiotl: ioan in jxquijch chichimeca tlatocaiotl, aocmo vel
molnamjquij, aocmo vel onmocxitoca ...   caiquac tlatlac in
tlatocat Itzcoatl, in mexico: innenonotzal mochiuh in mexica
tlatoque, quijtoque: amo monequj mochi tlacatl qujmatiz, in
tlilli, in tapalli, in tlatconj, in tlamamalonj, avilquij=E7az...


LH Feldman


From gomezjim at netscape.net  Mon Feb 28 15:49:09 2000
From: gomezjim at netscape.net (jim gomez (by way of "John F. Schwaller"
 <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>))
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:49:09 -0700
Subject: Az: Aztlan date
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.084909.0700.GOMEZJIM@NETSCAPE.NET>

On a couple of sources that may be of assistance:

M.E. Smith (1984:174) notes that the general consensus in the
histories is that most Chichimec migrations occurred at, or after,
the fall of Tollan. The dates he tabulates as arrival (founding)
dates of various Nahuatl groups fall after A.D. 1175 agrees with
the date N. Davies (1977:410-414) gives as the probable date for
the fall of Tollan. For instance, when this date is combined with
the cross over of Xolotl and his Chichimecs to Culua in 5 Tecpatl,
this is 1179.

For other year-count annuals, pictorial and textual, see also
Nicholson (1978:289). For an interesting perspective the
historicity question and who appears to accept the main accounts
at face value, see P. Carrasco (1950,1971).

The archaeological indicators for dating the fall of Tula (around
A.D. 1200) are of a more general nature, in comparison to the
relatively fast paced migrations, and perhaps better well known.

-Jim


From jrader at m-w.com  Mon Feb 28 11:44:53 2000
From: jrader at m-w.com (Jim Rader)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:44:53 +0000
Subject: Origin of "chipotle"
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.114453.0000.>

Anyone on the list with insights on the Nahuatl background of this
word?

According to Santamaria's _Diccionario de mejicanismos_, <chipotle>
is a variant of <chilpotle> (also <chilpocle> and <chilpote>), "del
mexicano <chilli>, pimiento, y <poctli>, humo."  This looks pretty
unobjectionable, though I can't find <chilpoctli> in F. Karttunen's
dictionary or any of the other very limited lexical sources on
Nahuatl I have at hand.  Also, wouldn't one expect the head of the
construction to be <chilli>, i.e, <pocchilli> [??] or <pochilli>,
since "smoke" is in effect the modifier?  Or are there a lot of
exceptions to this constituent order in Nahuatl?

I also have in my notes <xipotli> as the Nahuatl etymon of
<chipotle>, but unfortunately I no longer have the source of this
etymology.

Any ideas from listeros would be appreciated.

Jim Rader
Etymology Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Mon Feb 28 22:11:43 2000
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 17:11:43 -0500
Subject: huel yuhyan
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000222085519.00887a40@selway.umt.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.171143.0500.MDMORRIS@INDIANA.EDU>

Podria alguien ayudarme de traducir esta frase:  niman tlatlatlauhtique
huel yuhyan in tonatiuh

El contexto mas amplio en que tambien encuentro dificultades es:

ompa toctitoc auh yno acito yno calaquito yn tepanchantzinco niman
tlatlatlauhtique etc.


En tlatatlauhtique, tenemos sin duda, una narativa en tercera persona
plural, en acito y calaquito parece de ser tercera persona singular,
aunque supongo lo plural tambien es posible.  Supongo tambien que toctitoc
es verbo, pero si es, como llego aqui un ti- no tiene sentido para mi.

Pues, espero todos se encuentran bien en este dia lunes.

mochantzinco Atlihuetzia,

Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
grief. Eccl 1:18

To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From dakin at servidor.unam.mx  Tue Feb  1 03:00:14 2000
From: dakin at servidor.unam.mx (DAKIN ANDERSON KAREN)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:00:14 -0700
Subject: Diafrasismos
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2000.200014.0700.>

There is a another very extensive study of Nahuatl riddles " 'Tan ancha
como tu abuela': Adivinanzas en nahuatl del Guerrero central", by
Jonathan Amith, which includes a collection of 129 riddles from the area.
It is in vol. XII of Tlalocan, (the most recent volume) published by the
Instituto de
Investigaciones Filologicas of the UNAM.


From scalderon at spin.com.mx  Wed Feb  2 18:46:57 2000
From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:46:57 -0700
Subject: mixiotes
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2000.114657.0700.>

You can see some mixiote recipes at
http://travellady.com/articles/article-warder.html
http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/recipes/puebla/kgmixioteng.html
http://www.omni.net.mx/pesca/recetas/recetas1.html

gusano de maguey mixiotes are discussed at:

http://www.hollowtop.com/finl_html/magazines.htm

some other reipes at:

http://dulcinea.uc3m.es/users/cuesta/Recetas/Mexico/
(with recipes from my mother)

and

Cocina Mexicana: http://mexico.udg.mx/cocina/

Salvador Calderon


----- Original Message -----
From: Frances Karttunen <karttu at nantucket.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: mixiotes


>
> >anyone please send recipes!
> >
> > Yolohtzin
>
> There are some excellent recipes to be found on the kokone.com.mx site.
My
> Swedish students and I got amaranth seeds from the health food store last
> spring and made allegria following kokone instructions.  It was a great
> success.
>
> Mixiotes are food steamed in the leaves of the maguey plant (metl in
> Nahuatl).
>
> Fran
>


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Wed Feb  2 20:51:08 2000
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:51:08 -0700
Subject: mixiotes
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2000.135108.0700.>

In Tlaxcala we also have it commonly understood that mixiote is the wrap
used for barbeque rather than the food itself, and even the distinction
between mixiote from maguey and that of paper has largely disappeared in
common commercial use; so if you are here and want barbeque in mixiote,
you better ask before hand if it is real mixiote from maguey or from
paper.  Speaking of derivations, I am writing a doctoral thesis on
18th-century Tlaxcala based in Nahuatl sources working from a local
collection of some 2000 folios as well as another 100+ I've located in the
state archives.  I invite anyone competent in translating Nahuatl to
collaborate with me on particular documents or document genres.


Sincerely,

Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
grief. Eccl 1:18

To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From apaneco at saltel.net  Thu Feb  3 03:20:54 2000
From: apaneco at saltel.net (Howard Quilliam Dickens)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:20:54 -0700
Subject: Nahuat/Nahuat-l
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2000.202054.0700.>

I am currently studying the language Nahuat as spoken by the Pipiles here
in El Salvador. Most  words, in Nahuat are to be found in Nahuat-l although
the meaning applied to these words and the grammatical structure appears to
differ greatly.

I am interested in any information regarding the history of nahuat and it's
linguistic relationship with nahuat-l.

I am also interested to know if there are any nahuat speaking communities
in Mexico.
( The Pipiles originally came from Mexico; although that was over 2000
years ago)

I would be grateful for any information
Tasukamati Tajtsin

HQD
Ahuachapan: El Salvador


From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Thu Feb  3 03:24:12 2000
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:24:12 -0700
Subject: mixiotes
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2000.202412.0700.>

Hi Mark,
	I would really be interested in working with you on the translation of
Tlaxcalan documents.  My name is John Sullivan.  My dissertation was a
discourse analisis of the Actas de Cabildo de Tlaxcala (siglo XVI) in 1995.
I work now as a professor in the Doctorado en Historia de la Universidad
Aut?noma de Zacatecas.
	John Sullivan

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de
Mark David Morris
Enviado el: Mi?rcoles, 02 de Febrero de 2000 02:54 p.m.
Para: Multiple recipients of list
Asunto: Re: mixiotes


In Tlaxcala we also have it commonly understood that mixiote is the wrap
used for barbeque rather than the food itself, and even the distinction
between mixiote from maguey and that of paper has largely disappeared in
common commercial use; so if you are here and want barbeque in mixiote,
you better ask before hand if it is real mixiote from maguey or from
paper.  Speaking of derivations, I am writing a doctoral thesis on
18th-century Tlaxcala based in Nahuatl sources working from a local
collection of some 2000 folios as well as another 100+ I've located in the
state archives.  I invite anyone competent in translating Nahuatl to
collaborate with me on particular documents or document genres.


Sincerely,

Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
grief. Eccl 1:18

To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From karttu at nantucket.net  Thu Feb  3 03:38:41 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:38:41 -0700
Subject: Nahuat/Nahuat-l
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2000.203841.0700.>

You are familiar with Lyle Campbell's monumental work on Pipil?

Fran

----------
>From: apaneco at saltel.net (Howard Quilliam  Dickens)
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Nahuat/Nahuat-l
>Date: Wed, Feb 2, 2000, 10:22 PM
>

> I am currently studying the language Nahuat as spoken by the Pipiles here
> in El Salvador. Most  words, in Nahuat are to be found in Nahuat-l although
> the meaning applied to these words and the grammatical structure appears to
> differ greatly.
>
> I am interested in any information regarding the history of nahuat and it's
> linguistic relationship with nahuat-l.
>
> I am also interested to know if there are any nahuat speaking communities
> in Mexico.
> ( The Pipiles originally came from Mexico; although that was over 2000
> years ago)
>
> I would be grateful for any information
> Tasukamati Tajtsin
>
> HQD
> Ahuachapan: El Salvador
>


From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Thu Feb  3 10:53:20 2000
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 03:53:20 -0700
Subject: Nahuat/Nahuat-l
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2000.035320.0700.>

Nahuat is still spoken in the border region of Puebla and Veracruz (especially
in Cuetzallan and up to the Huasteca) although it?s quite different from the
Pipil Nahuat (as far as I know - I?m not a linguist!)
                                          ciao, juergen

Howard Quilliam Dickens schrieb:

> I am currently studying the language Nahuat as spoken by the Pipiles here
> in El Salvador. Most  words, in Nahuat are to be found in Nahuat-l although
> the meaning applied to these words and the grammatical structure appears to
> differ greatly.
>
> I am interested in any information regarding the history of nahuat and it's
> linguistic relationship with nahuat-l.
>
> I am also interested to know if there are any nahuat speaking communities
> in Mexico.
> ( The Pipiles originally came from Mexico; although that was over 2000
> years ago)
>
> I would be grateful for any information
> Tasukamati Tajtsin
>
> HQD
> Ahuachapan: El Salvador

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
Austria
tel: 01/ 524 54 60
0676/ 398 66 79


From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Thu Feb  3 11:07:41 2000
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 04:07:41 -0700
Subject: Nahuat/Nahuat-l
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2000.040741.0700.>

..a question : how do the Pipil call their language? the Nahuat speaker of
Puebla (Zacapoastla, Cuetzallan) refer to their idiom as "mexicano" without
making a substantial difference to other Nahuat-l dialects
                                       saludos, juergen

Howard Quilliam Dickens schrieb:

> I am currently studying the language Nahuat as spoken by the Pipiles here
> in El Salvador. Most  words, in Nahuat are to be found in Nahuat-l although
> the meaning applied to these words and the grammatical structure appears to
> differ greatly.
>
> I am interested in any information regarding the history of nahuat and it's
> linguistic relationship with nahuat-l.
>
> I am also interested to know if there are any nahuat speaking communities
> in Mexico.
> ( The Pipiles originally came from Mexico; although that was over 2000
> years ago)
>
> I would be grateful for any information
> Tasukamati Tajtsin
>
> HQD
> Ahuachapan: El Salvador

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
Austria
tel: 01/ 524 54 60
0676/ 398 66 79


From glaucia at unicamp.br  Fri Feb  4 05:32:45 2000
From: glaucia at unicamp.br (glaucia)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:32:45 -0700
Subject: malinche
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2000.223245.0700.>

During my master work, I found the word "malinche". As I am not a nahuatl
speaker, I am having problems to get the origin, meaning and use of the
nahuatl word "malinche".
Any help would be very useful.

Thankfully:

Glaucia Cristiani Montoro
glaucia at obelix.unicamp.br
Av. Orozimbo Maia 2090 ap 42
13023 - 001 Campinas - SP
Brazil - tel: 55 19 - 252 1276


From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Fri Feb  4 10:59:34 2000
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 03:59:34 -0700
Subject: malinche
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2000.035934.0700.>

"Malinche" is the spanish version of "Malintzin" who was given to Cort?s as
"present" by a comunity in Tabasco; born in Cuatzacualco from where she was
sold as a slave in her childhood, she spoke Nahuatl and served the Spaniards
as interpreter and  counselor during the Conquista (she had also a
relationship with Cort?s and was the mother of one of his sons, Don Martin
Cort?s). Her role in the conquest has been a subject of scientific
discussions: some authors think of her as playing a key role in the fall of
Tenochtitlan (as Cort?s depended totally from his indigenous allies like the
Tlaxcalteca or the Huexotzinca and led all his negotiations with them with
the help and interpretaion of Malintzin), others guess that her influence was
overvalued in some sources; however, some indigenous texts (e.g. the Anales
de Tlatelolco) dealing with the Conquista describe Cort?s-Malintzin as a kind
of double-figure with one and the same speech. In nowadays M?xico
"malinchismo" has become a synonymon for cultural or political treason.

                                                           ciao, juergen


ps: if You need more bibliographic informations, don?t hesitate to drop me
some lines.

glaucia schrieb:

> During my master work, I found the word "malinche". As I am not a nahuatl
> speaker, I am having problems to get the origin, meaning and use of the
> nahuatl word "malinche".
> Any help would be very useful.
>
> Thankfully:
>
> Glaucia Cristiani Montoro
> glaucia at obelix.unicamp.br
> Av. Orozimbo Maia 2090 ap 42
> 13023 - 001 Campinas - SP
> Brazil - tel: 55 19 - 252 1276

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
Austria
tel: 01/ 524 54 60
0676/ 398 66 79


From karttu at nantucket.net  Fri Feb  4 12:32:32 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 05:32:32 -0700
Subject: malinche
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2000.053232.0700.>

How about reading one or both of my two essays on the woman and her several
names?  One is a chapter in my book Between Worlds:  Interpreters, Guides,
and Survivors (Rutgers U. Press, 1994 and paperback 1996).  The other is
"Rethinking Malinche" in Susan Schroeder, et al, eds. (U. of Oklahoma Press,
1997).  People will tell you her "original name" was Malinalli Tenepal, but
this is most unlikely.  That story got going in the 1800s, centuries after
her life and death.

Fran Karttunen

----------
>From: "glaucia" <glaucia at unicamp.br>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: malinche
>Date: Fri, Feb 4, 2000, 12:35 AM
>

> During my master work, I found the word "malinche". As I am not a nahuatl
> speaker, I am having problems to get the origin, meaning and use of the
> nahuatl word "malinche".
> Any help would be very useful.
>
> Thankfully:
>
> Glaucia Cristiani Montoro
> glaucia at obelix.unicamp.br
> Av. Orozimbo Maia 2090 ap 42
> 13023 - 001 Campinas - SP
> Brazil - tel: 55 19 - 252 1276
>


From mixcoatl at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  4 18:54:35 2000
From: mixcoatl at earthlink.net (Olin Tezcatlipoca)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:54:35 -0700
Subject: malinche
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2000.115435.0700.>

Frances Karttunen wrote:
>
> How about reading one or both of my two essays on the woman and her several
> names?  One is a chapter in my book Between Worlds:  Interpreters, Guides,
> and Survivors (Rutgers U. Press, 1994 and paperback 1996).  The other is
> "Rethinking Malinche" in Susan Schroeder, et al, eds. (U. of Oklahoma Press,
> 1997).  People will tell you her "original name" was Malinalli Tenepal, but
> this is most unlikely.  That story got going in the 1800s, centuries after
> her life and death.
>
> Fran Karttunen
>
> ----------
> >From: "glaucia" <glaucia at unicamp.br>
> >To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> >Subject: malinche
> >Date: Fri, Feb 4, 2000, 12:35 AM
> >
>
> > During my master work, I found the word "malinche". As I am not a nahuatl
> > speaker, I am having problems to get the origin, meaning and use of the
> > nahuatl word "malinche".
> > Any help would be very useful.
> >
> > Thankfully:
> >
> > Glaucia Cristiani Montoro
> > glaucia at obelix.unicamp.br
> > Av. Orozimbo Maia 2090 ap 42
> > 13023 - 001 Campinas - SP
> > Brazil - tel: 55 19 - 252 1276
> >



The Spaniards "Christened" her Marina.  Nahuatl has no "r".  Malina.
Give Malina an "honorific" and you get Malin-tzin, Malintzin.  Make it
more Spanish and you get Malin-che, Malinche.  As to Malinalli:  name
one Nahuatl speaking historical person with a "calendar name".  It
doesn't happen.

Which brings up a question I've had for years.  I know there were
"calendar names" which were "baby names" that were held until maybe
puberty, and definitely changed when one became a warrior.  Also
possibly names were changed even after the person had died.
Nezahualcoyotl seems more of a name to be given after one has died as a
metaphor symbolizing the person.

Any information out there as to this process.  Florentine Codex doesn't
seem to clear this up.

Olin Tezcatlipoca
http://www.mexica-movement.org


From Amapohuani at aol.com  Sat Feb  5 00:56:26 2000
From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:56:26 -0700
Subject: malinche
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2000.175626.0700.>

Listeros:

Re Malinche.

Note Carochi 1645, 8v-9r, in the section dealing with the vocative. [All
special formatting is eliminated because of ASCII limitations. The original
is available in a number of libraries and in photoreproduction from the UNAM.]

"quando el nombre tuuiere la particular tzin, nota de reuerencia, o amor, se
puede para el vocatiuo anadir la e, al tzin, [c]omo nopiltzine, hijo mio, y
es modo de hablar tierno; mas varonil, y de menos melindre es boluer la tzin,
en tze, [y] dezir nopiltze, pero no muestra tanto amor, y este tze, en [e]l
Vocatiuo se vsa de ordinario posponerle a los nombre proprios castellanos,
como Iuantze, Iuan; Malintze, Maria: Pedrotze, Pedro."

When borrowing items from Nahuatl, Spanish speakers had a tendency to change
tze to che, hence Malinche.

Ye ixquich.
Barry D. Sell


From glaucia at unicamp.br  Sat Feb  5 02:11:38 2000
From: glaucia at unicamp.br (glaucia)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 19:11:38 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2000.191138.0700.>

I know that Malinche had a important role in the conquest, but reading
Bernal D?az del Castillo in many parts the word malinche was used, by the
indians, applied to the person of Cort?s.
These made me thinking in others meanings and uses for the word malinche.
My friend study this woman in the conquest of M?xico and had some theories,
focusing in the relations between the Indians and Cort?s or Cort?s and
Bernal D?az, related to the use of the nahuatl word Malinche by Bernal
D?az.
So I think if in the nahuatl language this word might have some meaning
then the name of Cort?s' s translator.
Actually, I don't study this specific subject, right now I am studying the
image of some Codex.


Glaucia Cristiani Montoro
glaucia at obelix.unicamp.br
Av. Orozimbo Maia 2090 ap 42
13023 - 001 Campinas - SP
Brazil - tel: 55 19 - 252 1276


From Earthlinked2 at aol.com  Sat Feb  5 03:05:25 2000
From: Earthlinked2 at aol.com (Earthlinked2 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:05:25 -0700
Subject: New to the list
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2000.200525.0700.>

Hi my name is Laura I am currently trying to recover my roots, Mexican-Aztec
heritage I don't speak any Nahuatl yet, but I would like to learn, hence the
list.  Any good resourses for getting started?  I am starting to study the
Aztec dance now and I would like to learn the meanings to the songs.  I don't
order anything on-line so I guess I'm somewhat limited.  Thanks and Hello to
everyone.

Laura
earthlinked at yahoo.com


From micc at home.com  Sat Feb  5 03:18:30 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:18:30 -0700
Subject: New to the list
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2000.201830.0700.>

check out:


www.aguila-blanca.com






Earthlinked2 at aol.com wrote:
>
> Hi my name is Laura I am currently trying to recover my roots, Mexican-Aztec
> heritage I don't speak any Nahuatl yet, but I would like to learn, hence the
> list.  Any good resourses for getting started?  I am starting to study the
> Aztec dance now and I would like to learn the meanings to the songs.  I don't
> order anything on-line so I guess I'm somewhat limited.  Thanks and Hello to
> everyone.
>
> Laura
> earthlinked at yahoo.com


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Sat Feb  5 07:57:32 2000
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 00:57:32 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.005732.0700.>

Please rid yourself of the term "indian" from your vocabulary when referring
to the indigenous people of these lands.  It is an inaccurate label.


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sat Feb  5 12:03:36 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 05:03:36 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.050336.0700.>

You will have to convince most of the indigeneous people of North America.
Good luck.

On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:

> Please rid yourself of the term "indian" from your vocabulary when referring
> to the indigenous people of these lands.  It is an inaccurate label.
>


Michael McCafferty
C.E.L.T.
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

*******************************************************************************
"Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
from the me that others don't know
to the other me that I don't know.

-Juan Ramon Jimenez

*******************************************************************************


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sat Feb  5 15:28:26 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 08:28:26 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.082826.0700.>

>
> On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
>
> > Please rid yourself of the term "indian" from your vocabulary when referring
> > to the indigenous people of these lands.  It is an inaccurate label.
> >
>
All the Indians I know, including my Cherokee relatives, refer to
themselves as Indians. No one is particularly enamoured of the term
"Native American." It sounds contrived, like something
concocted in a scientist's laboratory. "Native American" is, of course,
used in official correspondence with the government and that sort of
thing.

When you think about it, Germans are not really Germans. That term just
refers to a Germanic-speaking tribe. And how about the French? There they
are bearing the name of *German* tribe. Wonder if the French thought
about that during WW I and WW II.

Fortunately, as a soothing balm for the inordinately politically correct,
English at least no longers uses "savages" to denote American Indians.
This unfortunate term, of course, was simply a skewed borrowing from the
French /sauvages/, 'wild ones'. However, it is dismaying how often
"savages" continued to be seen in the work of historians even into the
second half of the 20th century.

Michael McCafferty
Indiana University


From karttu at nantucket.net  Sat Feb  5 15:41:36 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 08:41:36 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.084136.0700.>

Once again, I would like to direct interested listeros to my essay
"Rethinking Malinche" in Indian Women of Early Mexico, edited by Sue
Schroeder, et al.  I take up the multiple identification of dona Marina,
Cortes, and also another Spaniard who learned Nahuatl early with what the
Spaniards pronounced "malinche."  I suggest that in a world that until the
moment of contact had known no malintzins or any word like that, the people
who came into contact with the Spaniards and their interpreting chains
(Aguilar-dona Maina-Cortes and variations on that theme), may have believed
the humans involved to be agents of a previously unknown supernatural force
that was called Malintzin/Malinche.

Fran Karttunen

----------
>From: "glaucia" <glaucia at unicamp.br>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: malinche II
>Date: Fri, Feb 4, 2000, 9:13 PM
>

> I know that Malinche had a important role in the conquest, but reading
> Bernal D=EDaz del Castillo in many parts the word malinche was used, by the
> indians, applied to the person of Cort=E9s.
> These made me thinking in others meanings and uses for the word malinche.
> My friend study this woman in the conquest of M=E9xico and had some theorie=
s,
> focusing in the relations between the Indians and Cort=E9s or Cort=E9s and
> Bernal D=EDaz, related to the use of the nahuatl word Malinche by Bernal
> D=EDaz.
> So I think if in the nahuatl language this word might have some meaning
> then the name of Cort=E9s' s translator.
> Actually, I don't study this specific subject, right now I am studying th=
e
> image of some Codex.
>
>
> Glaucia Cristiani Montoro
> glaucia at obelix.unicamp.br
> Av. Orozimbo Maia 2090 ap 42
> 13023 - 001 Campinas - SP
> Brazil - tel: 55 19 - 252 1276
>


From heatherhess at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  5 17:16:26 2000
From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 10:16:26 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.101626.0700.>

I am a Canadian and have a very small amount of Ojibway blood!  I have
discovered after spending much time with natives - as they are referred to
in Ontario  - and - Aboriginals as they are referred to in Ontario - that it
is okay for Natives and Aboriginals to refer to themselves as Indians but it
is not proper to reference them as Indians.

Yolohtzin


>From: Michael Mccafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: malinche II
>Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 05:04:01 -0700
>
>You will have to convince most of the indigeneous people of North America.
>Good luck.
>
>On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
>
> > Please rid yourself of the term "indian" from your vocabulary when
>referring
> > to the indigenous people of these lands.  It is an inaccurate label.
> >
>
>
>Michael McCafferty
>C.E.L.T.
>307 Memorial Hall
>Indiana University
>Bloomington, Indiana
>47405
>mmccaffe at indiana.edu
>
>*******************************************************************************
>"Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
>from the me that others don't know
>to the other me that I don't know.
>
>-Juan Ramon Jimenez
>
>*******************************************************************************
>
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From karttu at nantucket.net  Sat Feb  5 19:21:38 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 12:21:38 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.122138.0700.>

About the use of the word "Indian"


This is a problem some of my colleagues and I have struggled with most
recently in the title and text of a volume of which I am co-editor.  The
volume title is "Issues of Minority Peoples," and one of the contributions
is an essay about names people have for other people.  Another contribution
to the volume uses "Indian" and yet another that was submitted used "native"
and "white man."  We editors an the contributors had debates and
disagreements.

In my own work, if I am talking about one particular people or several such
groups, I use their own current chosen ethnic names.  That means preferring
Tohono O'odom to Papago, Dakota/Lakota to Sioux, Wampanoag to Pokanet,
Mexicano to Nahua, Purepecha to Tarascan, etc. unless there is a good reason
to use the other name.  When the topic is very large, then one has to choose
among "first peoples," "first nations," "Native Americans," "Alaska
Natives," "indigenous peoples of the Americas," or (yes) "Indian people."
There really are a lot of people today who think of themselves as, refer to
themselves as, and want to be called "Indian people."  It depends on where
you are and who you are talking about.

When one is talking about the past, there are additional considerations.  If
one's sources constantly talk about "Indians," then one is not doing one's
readers a favor to pretend the sources don't say that, which goes for
"whites" and "blacks" as well. (My strategy is to refuse to capitalize such
labels.)  What's more, there is regional variation.  Mesoamericans, whether
Nahua, Maya, Mixtec,or Popoluca (all names that one can argue are artificial
or flawed), haven't ever, so far as my experience goes, referred to
themselves as "indios."  On the other hand, the ancestors of the Wampanoags
of the northeast Atlantic coast didn't call themselves Wampanoags in their
written documents of the 1600s and 1700s. ("Wampanoag" seems to be a word
borrowed by English and Dutch speakers from the Delaware language, and its
original meaning was "people who live to the east of us.")  Guess what the
ancestors of today's Wampanoags called themselves when writing about
themselves in their own language?  They referred to themselves as
"indiansog."  No kidding.  But if one goes back a few years to 1643, one
finds Roger Williams reporting that the Narragansetts asked him why the
English called them Indians.

As for the title of Indian Women of Early Mexico, a number of alternative
titles were considered, and the U. Of Oklahoma Press marketing department
convinced the editors that this was the title that would most effectively
inform potential readers of what the book is about.  The women in the book
are from several different Mesoamerican peoples.  Naturally there was also
much prepublication debate about what "Early Mexico" really means.

Fran Karttunen

----------
>From: Michael Mccafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: malinche II
>Date: Sat, Feb 5, 2000, 7:05 AM
>

> You will have to convince most of the indigeneous people of North America.
> Good luck.
>
> On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
>
>> Please rid yourself of the term "indian" from your vocabulary when referring
>> to the indigenous people of these lands.  It is an inaccurate label.
>>
>
>
> Michael McCafferty
> C.E.L.T.
> 307 Memorial Hall
> Indiana University
> Bloomington, Indiana
> 47405
> mmccaffe at indiana.edu
>
>
****************************************************************************
***
> "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
> from the me that others don't know
> to the other me that I don't know.
>
> -Juan Ramon Jimenez
>
>
****************************************************************************
***
>
>


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Sat Feb  5 20:16:11 2000
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 13:16:11 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.131611.0700.>

if u want to get technical, the term "savage" stems from the latin word
"silva".


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Sat Feb  5 20:29:21 2000
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 13:29:21 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.132921.0700.>

that's because most "Indians" have become complacent with this term.  I
prefer indigenous people.  Had Colombus thought he landed in Africa would we
have carried on this 500 year old bad habit of refering to the indigenous
people of these lands as, "Africans?"  Get used to calling us indigenous.  I
am not and Indian!  I am not from India.   And I am aware of the mislabelings
of all peoples and that is unfortunate.  But if you traversed Mexico then the
term, "indio" is regarded as an insulting remark.  Good luck to you Micheal
if you dont insult the indigenous people of Mexico by using this so-called
acceptable term there.  Chances are you would be regarded as ignorant or
insulting.


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sat Feb  5 21:12:39 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:12:39 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.141239.0700.>

Thank you, Dr. Kartunnen, for your, as usual, informative note. We are
certainly fortunate to have you as a contributor to this listserv.

Michael McCafferty

On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Frances Karttunen wrote:

> About the use of the word "Indian"
>
>
> This is a problem some of my colleagues and I have struggled with most
> recently in the title and text of a volume of which I am co-editor.  The
> volume title is "Issues of Minority Peoples," and one of the contributions
> is an essay about names people have for other people.  Another contribution
> to the volume uses "Indian" and yet another that was submitted used "native"
> and "white man."  We editors an the contributors had debates and
> disagreements.
>
> In my own work, if I am talking about one particular people or several such
> groups, I use their own current chosen ethnic names.  That means preferring
> Tohono O'odom to Papago, Dakota/Lakota to Sioux, Wampanoag to Pokanet,
> Mexicano to Nahua, Purepecha to Tarascan, etc. unless there is a good reason
> to use the other name.  When the topic is very large, then one has to choose
> among "first peoples," "first nations," "Native Americans," "Alaska
> Natives," "indigenous peoples of the Americas," or (yes) "Indian people."
> There really are a lot of people today who think of themselves as, refer to
> themselves as, and want to be called "Indian people."  It depends on where
> you are and who you are talking about.
>
> When one is talking about the past, there are additional considerations.  If
> one's sources constantly talk about "Indians," then one is not doing one's
> readers a favor to pretend the sources don't say that, which goes for
> "whites" and "blacks" as well. (My strategy is to refuse to capitalize such
> labels.)  What's more, there is regional variation.  Mesoamericans, whether
> Nahua, Maya, Mixtec,or Popoluca (all names that one can argue are artificial
> or flawed), haven't ever, so far as my experience goes, referred to
> themselves as "indios."  On the other hand, the ancestors of the Wampanoags
> of the northeast Atlantic coast didn't call themselves Wampanoags in their
> written documents of the 1600s and 1700s. ("Wampanoag" seems to be a word
> borrowed by English and Dutch speakers from the Delaware language, and its
> original meaning was "people who live to the east of us.")  Guess what the
> ancestors of today's Wampanoags called themselves when writing about
> themselves in their own language?  They referred to themselves as
> "indiansog."  No kidding.  But if one goes back a few years to 1643, one
> finds Roger Williams reporting that the Narragansetts asked him why the
> English called them Indians.
>
> As for the title of Indian Women of Early Mexico, a number of alternative
> titles were considered, and the U. Of Oklahoma Press marketing department
> convinced the editors that this was the title that would most effectively
> inform potential readers of what the book is about.  The women in the book
> are from several different Mesoamerican peoples.  Naturally there was also
> much prepublication debate about what "Early Mexico" really means.
>
> Fran Karttunen


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Subject: Raw Material: Maca & Cat's Claw
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From micc at home.com  Sun Feb  6 00:31:29 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:31:29 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS,
 AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE INTROVERTS
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.173129.0700.>

My most revered child,

You seem to be one of the many young and insecure Chicanos who, having
suddenly realized their "indigenismo" suddenly turn sacred, holy, and
arrogant.

there are MILLIONS of indigenous people, from the tip of Alaska, to the
tip of Tierra del fuego, that have learned to deal with that word
indio.  Zapata called himself "un indio", and he was truly a greater
yaochquichtli than a mocoso intellectual fanatic that lives his/her life
in the shadows of the internet discussion groups.

someday, when you have grown up, travel throughout this beautiful land,
talk to the elders, and learn to do away with, even KILL your anger and
hatred.  It does no one any good.... especially you.

You write to me in English, ARE YOU ENGLISH???? did your mother and
grandmother pray to coatlicue and chicomecoatl?  did your grandfather
offer blood sacrifice from his penis, overtime he harvested the
mosquito larvae from your local hueyapan?  Do you currently wear a
tilma' to work?

i bet you wear baggy jeans, a bandana or two, use athletic shoes, or
work boots, and perhaps even have a TV and CD player in your house...

YOU NOR I CANNOT CHANGE THE PATH OF HISTORY.  MASSACRES, WARS, PLAGUES,
AND CONQUEST ARE THE LOT OF ALL HUMANITY.  AS LONG AS THERE ARE PEOPLE
DOMINATED BY HATE AND ANGER, THIS WILL ALWAYS BE. As soon as the young
treasures of our nation, people such as yourself, can find it in their
heart to teach kindness, justice, truth and peace,      then and only
then
can the nightmare of human greed, violence, and murder end.  greed has
never been caused by true love.  Only by arrogance and
self-centeredness, whether it is individual, or national.

You my son, most precious feather, must not fall into this darkness.
Only Ometoetl can ever know why history has developed as it has.  Are
you arrogant enough (like the "White man you so hate) to think that your
mind is the way the Earth, its history, and its people, should be?

"your experience" in self-determination, is an illusion.  as long as you
are part of any society (nation of Aztlan, republican party, Ricky
martin fan club, or molotov fan club) you will always rely on that
society's "determination" as to what is appropriate and acceptable.
True determination, self, group, or otherwise comes from understanding
the great message of Ometoetl.  your political centered world view
ignores the greater law of justice. In the final analysis, what happens
on this planet, and what happens to our people is OF ABSOLUTELY NO
CONSEQUENCE TO THE UNIVERSE.....  I hope you do not believe that if we
do not pray and sacrifice to the gods, the world will end.....for that
self centered egotism is the most abominable of sins in the eyes of the
lord and lady of creation.  that is why the Mexi'ca were abandoned so
many centuries ago....abandoned by their gods, their friends and their
enemies.  because they believed that the world needed them to exist.
the tragic truth was that THEY needed everybody else (that they
oppressed, like the EURO-AFRICAN CENTERED ACADEMIA does today) to exist.


In chipahuac ihuan chicahuac.  4 words speak what all the "isms" of your
world view cannot say.  508 years of hatred, violence, war, and genocide
cannot ever be erased.  But do you want our people to spend the next 508
years seething with anger and hate????


Remember, this is the third millennium of the european calendar, and IT
IS THE FINAL COUNTDOWN OF THE KATUN.  YOU HAVE ONLY 11 YEARS LEFT TO
BURY YOUR ANGER, AND FOLLOW THE PATH OF LIGHT.  ONCE THIS KATUN ENDS, IF
WE DO NOT HAVE OUR CUITLATL TOGETHER "INDIGENOUS" TO ALL CONTINENTS,
THEN WE WILL BE FORCED TO REPEAT THE PAST KATUN.

remember most precious nephew,  most sacred wind, WHAT YOU DO TODAY, IS
GOING TO HELP YOU OR HURT YOU FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE......

take a risk....join the world....life is a blessing.....


InLak'ech nopiltzin


 Thank you for
> your time in reading my email.

Mario E. Aguilar
Quetzalcoatl Cuauhtlecoc





Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
>
> You really should change the word "indio" to indigena.  It is insulting to
> the indigenous people of Anahuac.  Those that are ignorant call the
> indigenous people of Anahuac, "indio".  Please do not get the wrong
> impression from me; I am not calling you ignorant.  It is from my own
> experience through self-determination that I have learned that the term,
> "indio" is a pejorative term among indigenos.  I suggest you change the name.
>  Everybody knows that this term is a 500+year-old bad habit generated by that
> idiot, Cristobal Colon when he thought he landed in the east Indies.  Hence,
> the term Indian accurately belongs to the people of India.  Thank you for
> your time in reading my email.

Michael Mccafferty wrote:
>
> >
> > On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > Please rid yourself of the term "indian" from your vocabulary when referring
> > > to the indigenous people of these lands.  It is an inaccurate label.
> > >
> >
> All the Indians I know, including my Cherokee relatives, refer to
> themselves as Indians. No one is particularly enamoured of the term
> "Native American." It sounds contrived, like something
> concocted in a scientist's laboratory. "Native American" is, of course,
> used in official correspondence with the government and that sort of
> thing.
>
> When you think about it, Germans are not really Germans. That term just
> refers to a Germanic-speaking tribe. And how about the French? There they
> are bearing the name of *German* tribe. Wonder if the French thought
> about that during WW I and WW II.
>
> Fortunately, as a soothing balm for the inordinately politically correct,
> English at least no longers uses "savages" to denote American Indians.
> This unfortunate term, of course, was simply a skewed borrowing from the
> French /sauvages/, 'wild ones'. However, it is dismaying how often
> "savages" continued to be seen in the work of historians even into the
> second half of the 20th century.
>
> Michael McCafferty
> Indiana University


From micc at home.com  Sun Feb  6 00:44:36 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:44:36 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS,
 AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE INTROVERTS
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.174436.0700.>

One more thing.... I know that it is "cool" for us "indigenously
advanced" chicanos  to call the Americas "Anahuac", a Nahuatl word.  But
it is extremely arrogant to place a Nahautl name on a land of hundreds
of INDIGENOUS NATIONS ( did I say that right yaoquichtli) that never
spoke nahuatl.  Why not a lakota name, or a Yanomamo, or Quechua, or
cupa, or chumash, or kwakiutl, or purepecha, or Comanche name????? Why
not a universal Esperanto-bahai-lingua
franca-televisa-CNN-coca-cola-toyota name like:

Fufu
Gagalandia
tripalopa
dollaria
telefeliz

better yet, lets call this land 011-252-555-1212

Amoxtla........

micc at home.com wrote:
>
> My most revered child,
>
> You seem to be one of the many young and insecure Chicanos who, having
> suddenly realized their "indigenismo" suddenly turn sacred, holy, and
> arrogant.
>
> there are MILLIONS of indigenous people, from the tip of Alaska, to the
> tip of Tierra del fuego, that have learned to deal with that word
> indio.  Zapata called himself "un indio", and he was truly a greater
> yaochquichtli than a mocoso intellectual fanatic that lives his/her life
> in the shadows of the internet discussion groups...........


From cberry at cinenet.net  Sun Feb  6 02:59:20 2000
From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 19:59:20 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.195920.0700.>

On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Michael Mccafferty wrote:

> You will have to convince most of the indigeneous people of North America.
> Good luck.

And note that almost no cultural group ends up named by others using the
word they would prefer.  The Picts of Britain were naimed by the Roman
occupying forces for their habit of decorating their bodies with paint.
The Celts were named after one small southeastern branch of a wide and
disparate group of cultures stretching across Europe.  Even modern Germans
(Deutsch to themselves) are known in each region of Europe based on which
pre-national tribal group happened to be nearest.  To further confuse
matters, there was no Amerindian term for Amerindian, as (a) they didn't
know about non-Amerindian humans, and (b) they didn't see themselves as a
monolithic culture (as they decidedly were not).  So, what are we to call
them?  Even "Native American" or "Amerindian" incorporates our old
European friend Amerigo Vespucci, after all.

--
   |   Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net
 --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |   "The road of Excess leads to the Palace
      of Wisdom" - William Blake


From lm412 at is9.nyu.edu  Sun Feb  6 03:02:17 2000
From: lm412 at is9.nyu.edu (Lucas Molina)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:02:17 -0700
Subject: trying to find the word for...
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.200217.0700.>

please don't think this odd but i collect knives and weapons and was
wondering what the name for the "aztec sword" is in nahuatl.  i've seen
a couple of examples at the New York Natural History Museum, but would
also like to know if anyone knows where i could find a picture on the
net somewhere.  i was thinking about trying to commission a flintknapper
to make one and am baffled about the method used to hold the blade in
place.

Lucas Molina


From GESX1CKAH at aol.com  Sun Feb  6 03:35:17 2000
From: GESX1CKAH at aol.com (GESX1CKAH at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:35:17 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.203517.0700.>

In a message dated 2/4/00 11:58:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Yaoxochitl at aol.com writes:

<< Please rid yourself of the term "indian" from your vocabulary when
referring
 to the indigenous people of these lands.  It is an inaccurate label. >>

I agree, Indian people are from India and Native Americans are from America
(not to be limited to the US)

jess


From GESX1CKAH at aol.com  Sun Feb  6 03:48:10 2000
From: GESX1CKAH at aol.com (GESX1CKAH at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:48:10 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.204810.0700.>

In a message dated 2/5/00 4:32:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, micc at home.com
writes:

<<
 My most revered child,

 You seem to be one of the many young and insecure Chicanos who, having
 suddenly realized their "indigenismo" suddenly turn sacred, holy, and
 arrogant.

 there are MILLIONS of indigenous people, from the tip of Alaska, to the
 tip of Tierra del fuego, that have learned to deal with that word
 indio.  Zapata called himself "un indio", and he was truly a greater
 yaochquichtli than a mocoso intellectual fanatic that lives his/her life
 in the shadows of the internet discussion groups.

 someday, when you have grown up, travel throughout this beautiful land,
 talk to the elders, and learn to do away with, even KILL your anger and
 hatred.  It does no one any good.... especially you.

 You write to me in English, ARE YOU ENGLISH???? did your mother and
 grandmother pray to coatlicue and chicomecoatl?  did your grandfather
 offer blood sacrifice from his penis, overtime he harvested the
 mosquito larvae from your local hueyapan?  Do you currently wear a
 tilma' to work?

 i bet you wear baggy jeans, a bandana or two, use athletic shoes, or
 work boots, and perhaps even have a TV and CD player in your house...

 YOU NOR I CANNOT CHANGE THE PATH OF HISTORY.  MASSACRES, WARS, PLAGUES,
 AND CONQUEST ARE THE LOT OF ALL HUMANITY.  AS LONG AS THERE ARE PEOPLE
 DOMINATED BY HATE AND ANGER, THIS WILL ALWAYS BE. As soon as the young
 treasures of our nation, people such as yourself, can find it in their
 heart to teach kindness, justice, truth and peace,      then and only
 then
 can the nightmare of human greed, violence, and murder end.  greed has
 never been caused by true love.  Only by arrogance and
 self-centeredness, whether it is individual, or national.

 You my son, most precious feather, must not fall into this darkness.
 Only Ometoetl can ever know why history has developed as it has.  Are
 you arrogant enough (like the "White man you so hate) to think that your
 mind is the way the Earth, its history, and its people, should be?

 "your experience" in self-determination, is an illusion.  as long as you
 are part of any society (nation of Aztlan, republican party, Ricky
 martin fan club, or molotov fan club) you will always rely on that
 society's "determination" as to what is appropriate and acceptable.
 True determination, self, group, or otherwise comes from understanding
 the great message of Ometoetl.  your political centered world view
 ignores the greater law of justice. In the final analysis, what happens
 on this planet, and what happens to our people is OF ABSOLUTELY NO
 CONSEQUENCE TO THE UNIVERSE.....  I hope you do not believe that if we
 do not pray and sacrifice to the gods, the world will end.....for that
 self centered egotism is the most abominable of sins in the eyes of the
 lord and lady of creation.  that is why the Mexi'ca were abandoned so
 many centuries ago....abandoned by their gods, their friends and their
 enemies.  because they believed that the world needed them to exist.
 the tragic truth was that THEY needed everybody else (that they
 oppressed, like the EURO-AFRICAN CENTERED ACADEMIA does today) to exist.


 In chipahuac ihuan chicahuac.  4 words speak what all the "isms" of your
 world view cannot say.  508 years of hatred, violence, war, and genocide
 cannot ever be erased.  But do you want our people to spend the next 508
 years seething with anger and hate????


 Remember, this is the third millennium of the european calendar, and IT
 IS THE FINAL COUNTDOWN OF THE KATUN.  YOU HAVE ONLY 11 YEARS LEFT TO
 BURY YOUR ANGER, AND FOLLOW THE PATH OF LIGHT.  ONCE THIS KATUN ENDS, IF
 WE DO NOT HAVE OUR CUITLATL TOGETHER "INDIGENOUS" TO ALL CONTINENTS,
 THEN WE WILL BE FORCED TO REPEAT THE PAST KATUN.

 remember most precious nephew,  most sacred wind, WHAT YOU DO TODAY, IS
 GOING TO HELP YOU OR HURT YOU FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE......

 take a risk....join the world....life is a blessing.....


 InLak'ech nopiltzin


  Thank you for
 > your time in reading my email.

 Mario E. Aguilar
 Quetzalcoatl Cuauhtlecoc >>

I don't think this hostility is necessary.  I don't care how mature you think
you are, how experienced you think you are, but if anything... this was
arrogant!

jessica


From GESX1CKAH at aol.com  Sun Feb  6 03:50:57 2000
From: GESX1CKAH at aol.com (GESX1CKAH at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:50:57 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.205057.0700.>

 This is the nahuatl server isn't it?

jess

<< One more thing.... I know that it is "cool" for us "indigenously
 advanced" chicanos  to call the Americas "Anahuac", a Nahuatl word.  But
 it is extremely arrogant to place a Nahautl name on a land of hundreds
 of INDIGENOUS NATIONS ( did I say that right yaoquichtli) that never
 spoke nahuatl.  Why not a lakota name, or a Yanomamo, or Quechua, or
 cupa, or chumash, or kwakiutl, or purepecha, or Comanche name????? Why
 not a universal Esperanto-bahai-lingua
 franca-televisa-CNN-coca-cola-toyota name like:

 Fufu
 Gagalandia
 tripalopa
 dollaria
 telefeliz

 better yet, lets call this land 011-252-555-1212

 Amoxtla........ >>


From cberry at cinenet.net  Sun Feb  6 04:34:03 2000
From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 21:34:03 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.213403.0700.>

On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:

> that's because most "Indians" have become complacent with this term.  I
> prefer indigenous people.

The problem is that "indigenous people" applies to any group who have
occupied any part of torld for a long time.  What would you propose as a
term for the indigenous people of the New World?

--
   |   Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net
 --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |   "The road of Excess leads to the Palace
      of Wisdom" - William Blake


From cberry at cinenet.net  Sun Feb  6 05:07:09 2000
From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 22:07:09 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.220709.0700.>

On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, I wrote:

> occupied any part of torld for a long time.  What would you propose as a

Sorry, fingers slipped or something; that 'torld' should of course be 'the
world'.

--
   |   Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net
 --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |   "The road of Excess leads to the Palace
      of Wisdom" - William Blake


From micc at home.com  Sun Feb  6 06:51:00 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 23:51:00 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.235100.0700.>

THANK YOU FOR SHARING!!!!!

HOSTILITY IS BEST ANSWERED WITH MIRTH.........


GESX1CKAH at aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2/5/00 4:32:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, micc at home.com
> writes:
>
> <<
>  My most revered child,
>
>  You seem to be one of the many young and insecure Chicanos who, having
>  suddenly realized their "indigenismo" suddenly turn sacred, holy, and
>  arrogant.
>
>  there are MILLIONS of indigenous people, from the tip of Alaska, to the
>  tip of Tierra del fuego, that have learned to deal with that word
>  indio.  Zapata called himself "un indio", and he was truly a greater
>  yaochquichtli than a mocoso intellectual fanatic that lives his/her life
>  in the shadows of the internet discussion groups.
>
>  someday, when you have grown up, travel throughout this beautiful land,
>  talk to the elders, and learn to do away with, even KILL your anger and
>  hatred.  It does no one any good.... especially you.
>
>  You write to me in English, ARE YOU ENGLISH???? did your mother and
>  grandmother pray to coatlicue and chicomecoatl?  did your grandfather
>  offer blood sacrifice from his penis, overtime he harvested the
>  mosquito larvae from your local hueyapan?  Do you currently wear a
>  tilma' to work?
>
>  i bet you wear baggy jeans, a bandana or two, use athletic shoes, or
>  work boots, and perhaps even have a TV and CD player in your house...
>
>  YOU NOR I CANNOT CHANGE THE PATH OF HISTORY.  MASSACRES, WARS, PLAGUES,
>  AND CONQUEST ARE THE LOT OF ALL HUMANITY.  AS LONG AS THERE ARE PEOPLE
>  DOMINATED BY HATE AND ANGER, THIS WILL ALWAYS BE. As soon as the young
>  treasures of our nation, people such as yourself, can find it in their
>  heart to teach kindness, justice, truth and peace,      then and only
>  then
>  can the nightmare of human greed, violence, and murder end.  greed has
>  never been caused by true love.  Only by arrogance and
>  self-centeredness, whether it is individual, or national.
>
>  You my son, most precious feather, must not fall into this darkness.
>  Only Ometoetl can ever know why history has developed as it has.  Are
>  you arrogant enough (like the "White man you so hate) to think that your
>  mind is the way the Earth, its history, and its people, should be?
>
>  "your experience" in self-determination, is an illusion.  as long as you
>  are part of any society (nation of Aztlan, republican party, Ricky
>  martin fan club, or molotov fan club) you will always rely on that
>  society's "determination" as to what is appropriate and acceptable.
>  True determination, self, group, or otherwise comes from understanding
>  the great message of Ometoetl.  your political centered world view
>  ignores the greater law of justice. In the final analysis, what happens
>  on this planet, and what happens to our people is OF ABSOLUTELY NO
>  CONSEQUENCE TO THE UNIVERSE.....  I hope you do not believe that if we
>  do not pray and sacrifice to the gods, the world will end.....for that
>  self centered egotism is the most abominable of sins in the eyes of the
>  lord and lady of creation.  that is why the Mexi'ca were abandoned so
>  many centuries ago....abandoned by their gods, their friends and their
>  enemies.  because they believed that the world needed them to exist.
>  the tragic truth was that THEY needed everybody else (that they
>  oppressed, like the EURO-AFRICAN CENTERED ACADEMIA does today) to exist.
>
>
>  In chipahuac ihuan chicahuac.  4 words speak what all the "isms" of your
>  world view cannot say.  508 years of hatred, violence, war, and genocide
>  cannot ever be erased.  But do you want our people to spend the next 508
>  years seething with anger and hate????
>
>
>  Remember, this is the third millennium of the european calendar, and IT
>  IS THE FINAL COUNTDOWN OF THE KATUN.  YOU HAVE ONLY 11 YEARS LEFT TO
>  BURY YOUR ANGER, AND FOLLOW THE PATH OF LIGHT.  ONCE THIS KATUN ENDS, IF
>  WE DO NOT HAVE OUR CUITLATL TOGETHER "INDIGENOUS" TO ALL CONTINENTS,
>  THEN WE WILL BE FORCED TO REPEAT THE PAST KATUN.
>
>  remember most precious nephew,  most sacred wind, WHAT YOU DO TODAY, IS
>  GOING TO HELP YOU OR HURT YOU FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE......
>
>  take a risk....join the world....life is a blessing.....
>
>
>  InLak'ech nopiltzin
>
>
>   Thank you for
>  > your time in reading my email.
>
>  Mario E. Aguilar
>  Quetzalcoatl Cuauhtlecoc >>
>
> I don't think this hostility is necessary.  I don't care how mature you think
> you are, how experienced you think you are, but if anything... this was
> arrogant!
>
> jessica


From micc at home.com  Sun Feb  6 06:54:03 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 23:54:03 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2000.235403.0700.>

YES IT IS THE NAHUATL SERVER.....it is not (at lesat as I can recall)
the cultural purity server......:)

GESX1CKAH at aol.com wrote:
>
>  This is the nahuatl server isn't it?
>
> jess
>
> << One more thing.... I know that it is "cool" for us "indigenously
>  advanced" chicanos  to call the Americas "Anahuac", a Nahuatl word.  But
>  it is extremely arrogant to place a Nahautl name on a land of hundreds
>  of INDIGENOUS NATIONS ( did I say that right yaoquichtli) that never
>  spoke nahuatl.  Why not a lakota name, or a Yanomamo, or Quechua, or
>  cupa, or chumash, or kwakiutl, or purepecha, or Comanche name????? Why
>  not a universal Esperanto-bahai-lingua
>  franca-televisa-CNN-coca-cola-toyota name like:
>
>  Fufu
>  Gagalandia
>  tripalopa
>  dollaria
>  telefeliz
>
>  better yet, lets call this land 011-252-555-1212
>
>  Amoxtla........ >>


From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net  Sun Feb  6 08:07:25 2000
From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 01:07:25 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2000.010725.0700.>

On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 GESX1CKAH at aol.com wrote:

| This is the nahuatl server isn't it?

Yes, but people are digressing.


From micc at home.com  Sun Feb  6 08:20:53 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 01:20:53 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2000.012053.0700.>

here, here!!!!!!!!!!

Matthew Montchalin wrote:
>
> On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 GESX1CKAH at aol.com wrote:
>
> | This is the nahuatl server isn't it?
>
> Yes, but people are digressing.


From malinal at evhr.net  Sun Feb  6 11:25:29 2000
From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 04:25:29 -0700
Subject: trying to find the word for...
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2000.042529.0700.>

-----Message d'origine-----
Lucas Molina <lm412 at is9.nyu.edu> wrote


>please don't think this odd but i collect knives and weapons and was
>wondering what the name for the "aztec sword" is in nahuatl.  i've seen
>a couple of examples at the New York Natural History Museum, but would
>also like to know if anyone knows where i could find a picture on the
>net somewhere.  i was thinking about trying to commission a flintknapper
>to make one and am baffled about the method used to hold the blade in
>place.
>
>Lucas Molina
>

Dear Lucas

the Nahuatl word for the indigenous sword is macuahuitl. A variant is
maccuahuitl. The usualy explaining of this word is to say it that it comes
from cuahuitl, tree, wood, stick and ma:-itl, hand, or ma:c, a locative
word, in the hand. Also hand-stick or stick (hold) in the hand.
But can this word not be in relation with the verb ma:cuauhti, for the arm
(or the hand) to become stiff ?

Sincerely yours

Alexis.


From hernand at dcsun1.epfl.ch  Sun Feb  6 12:59:11 2000
From: hernand at dcsun1.epfl.ch (Jose Maria Hernandez Gil)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 05:59:11 -0700
Subject: INDIANS and some more thoughts...
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2000.055911.0700.>

This is a mail directed to Mario E. Aguilar and Yaoxochitl, but I think
it contains enough relevant information(*) to merit posting it to the
list.

I'll commence with an analysis of Yaoxochitl's mail. He/she makes a very
simple comment. Essentially that "indian/indio" should not be used when
referring to the people encountered by the Europeans in 1492 in that land
mass.

I agree.

To say otherwise would be to contradict obvious fact. It would be to say
that the sky is not blue (as in the specific wavelength of light that
most english-speaking humans have agreed upon to refer to as "blue".) A
mistake was made. To accept this fact leads to the next logical question:
Should be strive to correct this error in the language?

You cannot force people to change their opinions, much less force them to
accept the truth. One can try, but will most likely fail. You
(Yaoxochitl) say that we should. Yet you do the same thing that you're
criticising. You call "Columbus" "Columbus", yet his name was and always
will be "Cristoforo Colombo". Should you correct it? I think so.
Will/Could you change it? Probably not.

Then you say an indian is someone that is from India. India is a large
country. I'm positive there is someone somewhere there that is "indian"
yet does use "indian" to call themselves that. Can you force a Bengali or
Kashmiri to be "indian" just because they where born in India?

I could continue with Africa, which is an interesting example, but I
think you get the point. To bring to someone's attention an inaccurate
label is good, but people will not give it much value unless you are
willing to do the same for others, period.

On to Mario E. Aguilar. Frankly, I got lost reading your soliloquy. It
was so full of un-topical, irrelevant, random comments tied together with
personal attacks that I had to read it several times to see a point.

You say that even though "indian/indio" is incorrect, we should accept it
and move on. I do not agree with this anymore than I agree with calling
Taco Bell food mexican, but I see merit in this. Words are rather trivial
in the long run. There are other, much bigger things to worry about
(hunger, corruption, survival in general). But to say that ALL should
resign themselves to the label without at least giving a rational
explanation is quite immature.

I think that's it. If you two have a reply, please e-mail it to me
directly, no point in annoying others.

(*) On relevance: To many of you this discussion might seen rather
stupid. Perhaps, but this list is about nahuatl. Nahuatl is not a dead
language. Like most things in Mexico, many people have many opinions
regarding it that can be quite different and even contradictory. I also
believe that Mexicans today are not all that different from Mexicans that
lived 500 years ago or even 1,000 years ago. Language is important, but
so is the way the people who speak it/spoke it think. Debates such as
these are useful is learning a little more about the problems of Nahuatl
speakers (or at least their descendants.)

Chema


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Sun Feb  6 13:52:42 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 06:52:42 -0700
Subject: Indians
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2000.065242.0700.>

Listeros,

Yaoxochitzin began the discussion of this topic with a adolescent
and uninformed invective. Of course, who among us has not done such a
thing?

In the end, it seems wise to call a particular people by the name that
they want to be called. When my Navajo friends want to be called
"Indians," I do them the honor of following their directive.

Best,

Michael McCafferty


From micc at home.com  Sun Feb  6 18:19:07 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 11:19:07 -0700
Subject: INDIANS and some more thoughts...
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2000.111907.0700.>

Chema,

You have succinctly captured the essence of this complex, human, and
passionate subject....

To me, it is not a matter of what labels we choose for ourselves.... it
is how we respect the labels others have chosen and how we carry
ourselves in our path of life.

Living a life or anger, hatred and, dogmatic purity is not a sign of
being a warrior.  It is a sign of not having a high intelligence ( Do
THE NAMES Hitler, Stalin, Balboa, Alvarado, Atilla, Tlacaelel, Idi Amin,
Ghengis Khan ring a bell?  They did not kill millions of innocent people
by themselves, they had "noble and loyal warriors who did the
butchering)

too many people (especially young people....AND YES I TOO WAS ONE OF
THEM... MANY CENTURIES AGO!!) spend so much of their sacred and finite
energy, re-batlling the battles that were won or lost long ago.

i did not use ...>  You my son, most precious feather, must not fall
into this darkness...."facetiously.... yaoquichtli IS OUR SON (OR
DAUGHTER.....although correctly a female would be yaocihuatl) and he/she
IS A PRECIOUS FEATHER to our people....We chicanos have more angry and
lost,young men rotting in prison than we do attending college...THAT IS
A TRAGIC WASTE OF LIFE..... and no amount of revgisionism, hatred or
political correctness can change that!

i am 45 years old.  I have been involved in the
Chicano/indigenous/olitical/spiritual/educational/economic struggle for
27 years.  I have seen  many sincere activists end up wasting their
lives with anger, self-defeating behavior (drugs, alcohol, etc) i have
seen self-appointed prophets, leaders, elders, and so-called Nahuatl
experts come into our communities and take advantage of the naive and
innocent who are looking for something or someone to help them find
meaning in their life.


it is only after we have climbed the pyramid that we can see how far we
can fall....


mario e. aguilar
www.aguila-blanca.com


 I never state that we should "we should accept it (even though
"indian/indio" is incorrect),
> and move on.

i simply stated that for those people who LIVE AN INDIGENOUS LIFE
EVERYDAY (as opposed to those who study it, dream of it, or wish it upon
themselves) indian/indio is not a big issue. The bigg issue for them is
economic, political, linguistic, spiritual and gentetic survival.

that is why I write my ..." soliloquy. It
> was so full of un-topical, irrelevant, random comments tied together with
> personal attacks that I had to read it several times to see a point."

The point is that there are too many people fidgeting over how many
indians/indigenists are dancing on the head of a pin.










Jose Maria Hernandez Gil wrote:
>
> This is a mail directed to Mario E. Aguilar and Yaoxochitl, but I think
> it contains enough relevant information(*) to merit posting it to the
> list.
>
> I'll commence with an analysis of Yaoxochitl's mail. He/she makes a very
> simple comment. Essentially that "indian/indio" should not be used when
> referring to the people encountered by the Europeans in 1492 in that land
> mass.
>
> I agree.
>
> To say otherwise would be to contradict obvious fact. It would be to say
> that the sky is not blue (as in the specific wavelength of light that
> most english-speaking humans have agreed upon to refer to as "blue".) A
> mistake was made. To accept this fact leads to the next logical question:
> Should be strive to correct this error in the language?
>
> You cannot force people to change their opinions, much less force them to
> accept the truth. One can try, but will most likely fail. You
> (Yaoxochitl) say that we should. Yet you do the same thing that you're
> criticising. You call "Columbus" "Columbus", yet his name was and always
> will be "Cristoforo Colombo". Should you correct it? I think so.
> Will/Could you change it? Probably not.
>
> Then you say an indian is someone that is from India. India is a large
> country. I'm positive there is someone somewhere there that is "indian"
> yet does use "indian" to call themselves that. Can you force a Bengali or
> Kashmiri to be "indian" just because they where born in India?
>
> I could continue with Africa, which is an interesting example, but I
> think you get the point. To bring to someone's attention an inaccurate
> label is good, but people will not give it much value unless you are
> willing to do the same for others, period.
>
> On to Mario E. Aguilar. Frankly, I got lost reading your soliloquy. It
> was so full of un-topical, irrelevant, random comments tied together with
> personal attacks that I had to read it several times to see a point.
>
> You say that even though "indian/indio" is incorrect, we should accept it
> and move on. I do not agree with this anymore than I agree with calling
> Taco Bell food mexican, but I see merit in this. Words are rather trivial
> in the long run. There are other, much bigger things to worry about
> (hunger, corruption, survival in general). But to say that ALL should
> resign themselves to the label without at least giving a rational
> explanation is quite immature.
>
> I think that's it. If you two have a reply, please e-mail it to me
> directly, no point in annoying others.
>
> (*) On relevance: To many of you this discussion might seen rather
> stupid. Perhaps, but this list is about nahuatl. Nahuatl is not a dead
> language. Like most things in Mexico, many people have many opinions
> regarding it that can be quite different and even contradictory. I also
> believe that Mexicans today are not all that different from Mexicans that
> lived 500 years ago or even 1,000 years ago. Language is important, but
> so is the way the people who speak it/spoke it think. Debates such as
> these are useful is learning a little more about the problems of Nahuatl
> speakers (or at least their descendants.)
>
> Chema


From micc at home.com  Sun Feb  6 18:32:08 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 11:32:08 -0700
Subject: trying to find the word for...
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2000.113208.0700.>

dear Alex,

Thanks for your message!!

I was trying to remember what word was ( without having to resort to my
beloved Karttunen, Molina, and Simeon dictionaries)!!!!


in the danza Azteca, we use the "macanas" which are more correctly
called clubs, rather than swords.  After reading your message, I
remembered how my maestro Florencio Yescas described the clubs as "palos
de mano"

thanks again!!!

alexis wimmer wrote:
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> Lucas Molina <lm412 at is9.nyu.edu> wrote
>
> >please don't think this odd but i collect knives and weapons and was
> >wondering what the name for the "aztec sword" is in nahuatl.  i've seen
> >a couple of examples at the New York Natural History Museum, but would
> >also like to know if anyone knows where i could find a picture on the
> >net somewhere.  i was thinking about trying to commission a flintknapper
> >to make one and am baffled about the method used to hold the blade in
> >place.
> >
> >Lucas Molina
> >
>
> Dear Lucas
>
> the Nahuatl word for the indigenous sword is macuahuitl. A variant is
> maccuahuitl. The usualy explaining of this word is to say it that it comes
> from cuahuitl, tree, wood, stick and ma:-itl, hand, or ma:c, a locative
> word, in the hand. Also hand-stick or stick (hold) in the hand.
> But can this word not be in relation with the verb ma:cuauhti, for the arm
> (or the hand) to become stiff ?
>
> Sincerely yours
>
> Alexis.


From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Sun Feb  6 19:35:35 2000
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 12:35:35 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS,
 AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE INTROVERTS
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2000.123535.0700.>

For this list to work, all participants must respects each other's opinions.
If you don't agree with someone, then you should present an argument which
supports your point of view.  Beginning a message with "my revered child"
establishes a hierarchy between the speaker and the person spoken to in
which the latter's ideas are automatically stripped of value.  This
discursive violence is not conducive to the exchange of information nor to
the solving of important social problems.
	John Sullivan
	Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas

-----Mensaje original-----
De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de
micc at home.com
Enviado el: S?bado, 05 de Febrero de 2000 06:34 p.m.
Para: Multiple recipients of list
Asunto: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE INTROVERTS


My most revered child,

You seem to be one of the many young and insecure Chicanos who, having
suddenly realized their "indigenismo" suddenly turn sacred, holy, and
arrogant.

there are MILLIONS of indigenous people, from the tip of Alaska, to the
tip of Tierra del fuego, that have learned to deal with that word
indio.  Zapata called himself "un indio", and he was truly a greater
yaochquichtli than a mocoso intellectual fanatic that lives his/her life
in the shadows of the internet discussion groups.

someday, when you have grown up, travel throughout this beautiful land,
talk to the elders, and learn to do away with, even KILL your anger and
hatred.  It does no one any good.... especially you.

You write to me in English, ARE YOU ENGLISH???? did your mother and
grandmother pray to coatlicue and chicomecoatl?  did your grandfather
offer blood sacrifice from his penis, overtime he harvested the
mosquito larvae from your local hueyapan?  Do you currently wear a
tilma' to work?

i bet you wear baggy jeans, a bandana or two, use athletic shoes, or
work boots, and perhaps even have a TV and CD player in your house...

YOU NOR I CANNOT CHANGE THE PATH OF HISTORY.  MASSACRES, WARS, PLAGUES,
AND CONQUEST ARE THE LOT OF ALL HUMANITY.  AS LONG AS THERE ARE PEOPLE
DOMINATED BY HATE AND ANGER, THIS WILL ALWAYS BE. As soon as the young
treasures of our nation, people such as yourself, can find it in their
heart to teach kindness, justice, truth and peace,      then and only
then
can the nightmare of human greed, violence, and murder end.  greed has
never been caused by true love.  Only by arrogance and
self-centeredness, whether it is individual, or national.

You my son, most precious feather, must not fall into this darkness.
Only Ometoetl can ever know why history has developed as it has.  Are
you arrogant enough (like the "White man you so hate) to think that your
mind is the way the Earth, its history, and its people, should be?

"your experience" in self-determination, is an illusion.  as long as you
are part of any society (nation of Aztlan, republican party, Ricky
martin fan club, or molotov fan club) you will always rely on that
society's "determination" as to what is appropriate and acceptable.
True determination, self, group, or otherwise comes from understanding
the great message of Ometoetl.  your political centered world view
ignores the greater law of justice. In the final analysis, what happens
on this planet, and what happens to our people is OF ABSOLUTELY NO
CONSEQUENCE TO THE UNIVERSE.....  I hope you do not believe that if we
do not pray and sacrifice to the gods, the world will end.....for that
self centered egotism is the most abominable of sins in the eyes of the
lord and lady of creation.  that is why the Mexi'ca were abandoned so
many centuries ago....abandoned by their gods, their friends and their
enemies.  because they believed that the world needed them to exist.
the tragic truth was that THEY needed everybody else (that they
oppressed, like the EURO-AFRICAN CENTERED ACADEMIA does today) to exist.


In chipahuac ihuan chicahuac.  4 words speak what all the "isms" of your
world view cannot say.  508 years of hatred, violence, war, and genocide
cannot ever be erased.  But do you want our people to spend the next 508
years seething with anger and hate????


Remember, this is the third millennium of the european calendar, and IT
IS THE FINAL COUNTDOWN OF THE KATUN.  YOU HAVE ONLY 11 YEARS LEFT TO
BURY YOUR ANGER, AND FOLLOW THE PATH OF LIGHT.  ONCE THIS KATUN ENDS, IF
WE DO NOT HAVE OUR CUITLATL TOGETHER "INDIGENOUS" TO ALL CONTINENTS,
THEN WE WILL BE FORCED TO REPEAT THE PAST KATUN.

remember most precious nephew,  most sacred wind, WHAT YOU DO TODAY, IS
GOING TO HELP YOU OR HURT YOU FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE......

take a risk....join the world....life is a blessing.....


InLak'ech nopiltzin


 Thank you for
> your time in reading my email.

Mario E. Aguilar
Quetzalcoatl Cuauhtlecoc





Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
>
> You really should change the word "indio" to indigena.  It is insulting to
> the indigenous people of Anahuac.  Those that are ignorant call the
> indigenous people of Anahuac, "indio".  Please do not get the wrong
> impression from me; I am not calling you ignorant.  It is from my own
> experience through self-determination that I have learned that the term,
> "indio" is a pejorative term among indigenos.  I suggest you change the
name.
>  Everybody knows that this term is a 500+year-old bad habit generated by
that
> idiot, Cristobal Colon when he thought he landed in the east Indies.
Hence,
> the term Indian accurately belongs to the people of India.  Thank you for
> your time in reading my email.

Michael Mccafferty wrote:
>
> >
> > On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > Please rid yourself of the term "indian" from your vocabulary when
referring
> > > to the indigenous people of these lands.  It is an inaccurate label.
> > >
> >
> All the Indians I know, including my Cherokee relatives, refer to
> themselves as Indians. No one is particularly enamoured of the term
> "Native American." It sounds contrived, like something
> concocted in a scientist's laboratory. "Native American" is, of course,
> used in official correspondence with the government and that sort of
> thing.
>
> When you think about it, Germans are not really Germans. That term just
> refers to a Germanic-speaking tribe. And how about the French? There they
> are bearing the name of *German* tribe. Wonder if the French thought
> about that during WW I and WW II.
>
> Fortunately, as a soothing balm for the inordinately politically correct,
> English at least no longers uses "savages" to denote American Indians.
> This unfortunate term, of course, was simply a skewed borrowing from the
> French /sauvages/, 'wild ones'. However, it is dismaying how often
> "savages" continued to be seen in the work of historians even into the
> second half of the 20th century.
>
> Michael McCafferty
> Indiana University


From karttu at nantucket.net  Sun Feb  6 20:29:25 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 13:29:25 -0700
Subject: Native Americans
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2000.132925.0700.>

Ohiyesa/Charles Eastman was a Santee born in Minnesota and raised in
Manitoba in the second half of the 1800s.  He used the term "Native
American" long before anyone else that I was aware of=8Auntil very recently
when I came across the use by Roger Williams all the way back in 1643.  So
it's not such a contrived neologism as one might think.  It was certainly
more enlightened and thoughtful on the part of Williams than the labels the
French and English were applying to the Algonquins and the Iroqouis at the
time.

Fran Karttunen


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Mon Feb  7 15:54:22 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 08:54:22 -0700
Subject: Debate over "Indians"
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.085422.0700.>

Dear List members,

Now that there seems to be a lull in the discussion, I'd like to requerst
that we leave this topic.  While it is of great interest and certainly
valid, this is not the place.  As has been noted, this is the Nahuat-l
listserv dedicate to the study of the Nahua and the Nahuatl language.  Thus
far no one has noted that that the colonial Nahua referred to themselves
not as "indiosme" as one might expect, but as "nican tlaca"  (people from
here).

So it has been an exciting weekend, but let's call it quits, please.

I ask also that people not "shoot from the lip"  Before engaging in
discussion that we know will be acrimonious, try sending a note to the
person off-line, that is outside of the list.

J. F. Schwaller,
List Owner


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From noharm at worldonline.nl  Mon Feb  7 20:28:41 2000
From: noharm at worldonline.nl (Harm Puite)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 13:28:41 -0700
Subject: Tloque Nahuaque
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.132841.0700.>

You'll find these designations quite frequently in the historia
Tolteca-Chichimeca


From CCBtlevine at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 00:42:20 2000
From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:42:20 -0700
Subject: malinche
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.174220.0700.>

In a message dated 02/04/2000 3:00:35 AM Pacific Standard Time,=20
juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at writes:

<< Malinche" is the spanish version of "Malintzin" who was given to Cort=E9s=
 as
 "present"  >>

My understanding of  Malintzin is that it is the honorific form of Marina,=20
the name that Cortez gave to the slave girl.  The Nahuatl speaking people=20
could not pronounce the letter "R."   When they heard "R," they would=20
pronounce "L."  The "A" ending was dropped and the honorfic "tzin" was added=
.=20
 Thus, Marin(a)tzin becomes Malintzin.


From GESX1CKAH at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 00:58:20 2000
From: GESX1CKAH at aol.com (GESX1CKAH at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:58:20 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.175820.0700.>

I was told that if you add "zin" after a word that this meant beloved... for
example if I used the name of earth, Tlalli and added zin to make Tlallizin
as beloved earth... is this correct?

thank you
jess


From micc at home.com  Tue Feb  8 01:12:05 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:12:05 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.181205.0700.>

my understanding is that it means "revered, or honorable, not beloved.
Tla'zo would be love..... (i am not sure if there is a glottal stop in
there)


good luck!
mario www.aguila-blanca.com

GESX1CKAH at aol.com wrote:
>
> I was told that if you add "zin" after a word that this meant beloved... for
> example if I used the name of earth, Tlalli and added zin to make Tlallizin
> as beloved earth... is this correct?
>
> thank you
> jess


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 01:45:52 2000
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:45:52 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.184552.0700.>

I told u, "indigenous"


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 01:48:45 2000
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:48:45 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.184845.0700.>

Hey Mario, an empty can makes the loudes noise, and you truely are an empty
can!


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 01:51:30 2000
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:51:30 -0700
Subject: trying to find the word for...
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.185130.0700.>

the name for "aztec sword" is, I believe, Maquahuitl


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 02:04:56 2000
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:04:56 -0700
Subject: Indians
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.190456.0700.>

Micheal, my comment was adolescent?  Are you calling Kirkpatrick Sale's
exhaustive 7 year research on the Columbian legacy adolescent.  You need to
read some more son!


From Yaoxochitl at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 02:07:42 2000
From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:07:42 -0700
Subject: Debate over "Indians"
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.190742.0700.>

I apologize Dr. Schwaller.  You are right, this is a Nahuatl server list
emphasizing the language.


From micc at home.com  Tue Feb  8 02:10:28 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:10:28 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.191028.0700.>

aprende a escribir guey!!

Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
>
> Hey Mario, an empty can makes the loudes noise, and you truely are an empty
> can!


From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net  Tue Feb  8 02:34:32 2000
From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:34:32 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.193432.0700.>

On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 GESX1CKAH at aol.com wrote:

|I was told that if you add "zin" after a word that this meant beloved...
|for example if I used the name of earth, Tlalli and added zin to make
|Tlallizin as beloved earth... is this correct?

Would that be the same thing as the suffixes:

   -tsi
   -tsin
   -tsinko

Similar to the -chen suffix in German, as in, mein Liebchen (my
sweetheart)?  Can this suffix go on verbs or pronouns, or does it
only go on nouns?  (I am referring to page 136 of Thelma Sullivan's
Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar.)  What kind of nouns can *not*
receive this suffix?  For instance, how about atl (water)?  Is
there an affectionate form of atl, say, atoltsi, my cherished
water?


From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net  Tue Feb  8 02:37:20 2000
From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:37:20 -0700
Subject: Indians
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.193720.0700.>

On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:

|Micheal, my comment was adolescent?  Are you calling Kirkpatrick Sale's
|exhaustive 7 year research on the Columbian legacy adolescent.  You need
|to read some more son!

What I'd *really* go for, is some good old-fashioned comic books in
Nahuatl!


From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb  8 02:50:19 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:50:19 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.195019.0700.>

The suffix is -tzin.  But it's added to noun stems, not to nouns in
absolutive form.  So from tlalli one gets tlaltzin, not tlallitzin.

----------
>From: GESX1CKAH at aol.com
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: is it zin or tzin??
>Date: Mon, Feb 7, 2000, 7:59 PM
>

>
>
> I was told that if you add "zin" after a word that this meant beloved... for
> example if I used the name of earth, Tlalli and added zin to make Tlallizin
> as beloved earth... is this correct?
>
> thank you
> jess
>


From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb  8 03:03:18 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 20:03:18 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.200318.0700.>

-tzin has two distinct meanings.  It has what I think was its basic meaning,
which is an affectionate diminutive: 'dear little.'

But a second, honorific use developed for -tzin.   So Teotl inantzin is
'God's reverend mother' rather than 'God's dear little mother.'

The honorific use was and still is more geographically restricted than the
affectionate diminutive.  Up in the Huasteca the honorific -tzin is
restricted to religious terminology in Nahuatl that was introduced by
Christian evangelists some time after the conquest.

On the other hand, honorific -tzin for rulers and other influential people
was in use in the central Nahuatl-speaking area when the Spanish arrived.

By contrast with Nahuatl as spoken in the Huasteca, where honorifics are
nearly absent, Nahuatl speakers of the Tlaxcala area developed and have
retained an honorific system more complicated than that used by the Mexica
of the central valley of Mexico.

Polite speech (which involves more than adding -tzin to nouns) is so
complicated that I can't imagine how anybody manages to speak properly to
their elderly compadres.

Fran Karttunen
----------
>From: micc at home.com
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: is it zin or tzin??
>Date: Mon, Feb 7, 2000, 8:13 PM
>

> my understanding is that it means "revered, or honorable, not beloved.
> Tla'zo would be love..... (i am not sure if there is a glottal stop in
> there)
>
>
> good luck!
> mario www.aguila-blanca.com
>
> GESX1CKAH at aol.com wrote:
>>
>> I was told that if you add "zin" after a word that this meant beloved... for
>> example if I used the name of earth, Tlalli and added zin to make Tlallizin
>> as beloved earth... is this correct?
>>
>> thank you
>> jess
>


From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb  8 03:16:12 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 20:16:12 -0700
Subject: One more thing about honorifics
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.201612.0700.>

One directs honorifics to others.  If a man politely addresses a person
named Yaoxochitl, for instance, he uses the -tzin and also the vocative
suffix -e:  So a man would say Yaoxochitzine or the contracted form
Yaoxochitze.

If a woman addresses the same Yaoxochitl, she would use the -tzin, but not
the locative -e, because the -e vocative was restricted to men's speech.

But if a woman reports that a man has politely addressed this Yaoxochitl,
she would report that the man said "Yaoxochitzine."  It's not that women
were prohibited from saying -tzine.  Women just did the vocative part for
themselves by intonation instead of with -e.

The big prohibition is using the honorific in reference to oneself.
Yaoxochitl should never refer to himself as Yaoxochitzin.

Adding a -tzin to one's own name is a gaffe that will usually provoke a lot
of laughter and teasing.

Of course speaking respectfully about a person or people in the third person
(like the Blessed Virgin as Teotl inantzin) is always proper.

The difference between the BVM and Coatlicue, by the way, is that the Virgin
is Teotl inantzin 'God's reverend mother' and the Aztec mother deity is
Teteoh innantzin 'the reverend mother of the gods.'

This little essay on Mexica politeness has two aims.  One is grammatical,
and the other is a gentle reminder to listeros that the Mexica were very,
VERY polite, and we should humbly follow their example.

Enough said.


From micc at home.com  Tue Feb  8 05:21:06 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 22:21:06 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.222106.0700.>

Frances,

it would be interesting to see if the Tlaxcalteca honorific methodology
of speaking to their elders has been transmitted to the modern Mexican
Spanish spoken in the area.

Frances Karttunen wrote:
>
> -tzin has two distinct meanings.  It has what I think was its basic meaning,
> which is an affectionate diminutive: 'dear little.'
>
> But a second, honorific use developed for -tzin.   So Teotl inantzin is
> 'God's reverend mother' rather than 'God's dear little mother.'
>
> The honorific use was and still is more geographically restricted than the
> affectionate diminutive.  Up in the Huasteca the honorific -tzin is
> restricted to religious terminology in Nahuatl that was introduced by
> Christian evangelists some time after the conquest.
>
> On the other hand, honorific -tzin for rulers and other influential people
> was in use in the central Nahuatl-speaking area when the Spanish arrived.
>
> By contrast with Nahuatl as spoken in the Huasteca, where honorifics are
> nearly absent, Nahuatl speakers of the Tlaxcala area developed and have
> retained an honorific system more complicated than that used by the Mexica
> of the central valley of Mexico.
>
> Polite speech (which involves more than adding -tzin to nouns) is so
> complicated that I can't imagine how anybody manages to speak properly to
> their elderly compadres.
>
> Fran Karttunen
> ----------
> >From: micc at home.com
> >To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: is it zin or tzin??
> >Date: Mon, Feb 7, 2000, 8:13 PM
> >
>
> > my understanding is that it means "revered, or honorable, not beloved.
> > Tla'zo would be love..... (i am not sure if there is a glottal stop in
> > there)
> >
> >
> > good luck!
> > mario www.aguila-blanca.com
> >
> > GESX1CKAH at aol.com wrote:
> >>
> >> I was told that if you add "zin" after a word that this meant beloved... for
> >> example if I used the name of earth, Tlalli and added zin to make Tlallizin
> >> as beloved earth... is this correct?
> >>
> >> thank you
> >> jess
> >


From XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com  Tue Feb  8 06:36:59 2000
From: XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com (XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:36:59 -0700
Subject: Nahua Net Names
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2000.233659.0700.>

Even though I didn't originate the question, thank you Frances for clarifying
re: -tzin.  :-) These are precisely the kind of fact-a-day posts that I enjoy
receiveing from the list.

karttu at nantucket.net writes:
<< The big prohibition is using the honorific in reference to oneself.
Yaoxochitl should never refer to himself as Yaoxochitzin.
Adding a -tzin to one's own name is a gaffe that will usually provoke a lot
of laughter and teasing. >>

I of course realize that this statement is not directed specifically to me,
but it does bring up something I've been thinking about for a while as I
study the issues of identity on the Internet, which often includes the act of
self-naming.

My AOL Screen Name is not a Nahuatl name I have taken for myself as a person,
nor do I expect to be addressed by it.  I don't sign my posts to this
listserv using it, but am often referred to as "Xocoyo" or "Copitzin" in
other non-nahuatl venues where I desire a modicum of anonymity.  Because of
the sophisticated nature of the work we do together in those forums, not a
one of the participants confuses me with the nature of the screen name.

Here on Nahuat-l, should you ever need to quote me, I'd rather you just call
me Alison King.  :-)  I wouldn't presume to take a Nahua name for my own
unless I had a legitimate reason to.  Xocoyocopitzin is, however, the name
for a storybook character I'm currently researching and writing about, and
since much of the book's conversation happens between Xocoyocopitzin and her
revered elder, the -tzin was important for me to include in the Screen Name.
I employ the -tzin in a fond, diminiutive sense.  Who knows, maybe I even got
some part of the name wrong in my haste to get started on the project before
resubscribing here.  I guess now would be a good time to find out if I'm in
error.  :-)

Of course, you wouldn't know a shred of this reasoning unless I'd shared
today.  I bring it up because I think its important to realize that folks
using Nahuatl names on the internet may be doing so for an increasingly wide
variety of reasons, some of which have to do with Real Life identity (ala
Mexica Movement), and others for more conceptual reasons (poetic license), or
in my case, arts & entertainment purposes in a ficitonwriting club.

As the Age of the Internet swells into a sizeably legitimate form of
worldwide cultural revolution, the integration of Nahua words and principles
into Net culture is going to be an inevitable fact.  (A quick search of the
AOL Screen Name database shows quite a few.... creative.... uses of the term
"coatl", "yaotl", "Tezcatlipoca" and "quetzal") We're bound to see increased
use and abuse of the language as the Net is cast wider.  I'm sure a good
number of us are familiar with the dangers of "playing indian" (let's let
that beaten horse lie), and the Internet makes that even more tempting to do
on all sorts of levels, largely because of the anonymity that the medium
affords.

Interesting times, indeed.

For those of you who have taken Nahua Net Names (whether of Mexican descent
or not), I'd be interested to hear the reasons why, how you use your name,
whether it was self-conceived or given to you, how others perceive and use it
on the Net, the process you may have gone through to choose a Nahua Net name
for yourself, and perhaps what it means to you to bear a Nahua Net name in
this small, small world.


Alison King


From micc at home.com  Tue Feb  8 07:10:43 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 00:10:43 -0700
Subject: Nahua Net Names
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.001043.0700.>

You raise some interesting questions in regards to the internet and the
use of nahuatl names for internet "identities"  i am sure that some
people will not like "non-indigenous people" using nahuatl names, but
that is another story.....

ihave a nahuatl name that was given to me by my Azteca dance maestro in
1975. Quetzalcoatl, he said fit me since I was always trying to learn
the cultural ways of our past.  of course, at that time he did not know
about the 18th and 19th century revisions of Quetzalcoatl as a "god of
wisdom", but his sentiments were nevertheless kind and thoguhtful.

In 1980 when i was given recognition as a tla'toani (or as is more
commonly used in the danza: Capitan) by a group of Danza Azteca elders
at Tepeyacac, I chose the name Cuauhtlecoc as my Danza name.


Today, all of the young kids who have been born into my dance group have
spanish names ( or as some purists call them "slave names) for use in
the schools, and regular "business"  and Nahuatl or Yaqui middle names
for ceremonial use only.  We have a large population of Mexicanos who
come from Sonora and Sinaloa, where the Yoreme and Cora live, so the
Yaqui names are popular.

My son, as student at UCLA has as  his ceremonial name Ehecatl, and my
daughter has  Metztli

Over the past two years or so that I have been a menmber of the nahuat-l
and Aztlan groups, i have seen a rise in requests for Nahuatl or
indigenous names for new born children.


XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com wrote:
>
> Even though I didn't originate the question, thank you Frances for clarifying
> re: -tzin.  :-) These are precisely the kind of fact-a-day posts that I enjoy
> receiveing from the list.
>
> karttu at nantucket.net writes:
> << The big prohibition is using the honorific in reference to oneself.
> Yaoxochitl should never refer to himself as Yaoxochitzin.
> Adding a -tzin to one's own name is a gaffe that will usually provoke a lot
> of laughter and teasing. >>
>
> I of course realize that this statement is not directed specifically to me,
> but it does bring up something I've been thinking about for a while as I
> study the issues of identity on the Internet, which often includes the act of
> self-naming.
>
> My AOL Screen Name is not a Nahuatl name I have taken for myself as a person,
> nor do I expect to be addressed by it.  I don't sign my posts to this
> listserv using it, but am often referred to as "Xocoyo" or "Copitzin" in
> other non-nahuatl venues where I desire a modicum of anonymity.  Because of
> the sophisticated nature of the work we do together in those forums, not a
> one of the participants confuses me with the nature of the screen name.
>
> Here on Nahuat-l, should you ever need to quote me, I'd rather you just call
> me Alison King.  :-)  I wouldn't presume to take a Nahua name for my own
> unless I had a legitimate reason to.  Xocoyocopitzin is, however, the name
> for a storybook character I'm currently researching and writing about, and
> since much of the book's conversation happens between Xocoyocopitzin and her
> revered elder, the -tzin was important for me to include in the Screen Name.
> I employ the -tzin in a fond, diminiutive sense.  Who knows, maybe I even got
> some part of the name wrong in my haste to get started on the project before
> resubscribing here.  I guess now would be a good time to find out if I'm in
> error.  :-)
>
> Of course, you wouldn't know a shred of this reasoning unless I'd shared
> today.  I bring it up because I think its important to realize that folks
> using Nahuatl names on the internet may be doing so for an increasingly wide
> variety of reasons, some of which have to do with Real Life identity (ala
> Mexica Movement), and others for more conceptual reasons (poetic license), or
> in my case, arts & entertainment purposes in a ficitonwriting club.
>
> As the Age of the Internet swells into a sizeably legitimate form of
> worldwide cultural revolution, the integration of Nahua words and principles
> into Net culture is going to be an inevitable fact.  (A quick search of the
> AOL Screen Name database shows quite a few.... creative.... uses of the term
> "coatl", "yaotl", "Tezcatlipoca" and "quetzal") We're bound to see increased
> use and abuse of the language as the Net is cast wider.  I'm sure a good
> number of us are familiar with the dangers of "playing indian" (let's let
> that beaten horse lie), and the Internet makes that even more tempting to do
> on all sorts of levels, largely because of the anonymity that the medium
> affords.
>
> Interesting times, indeed.
>
> For those of you who have taken Nahua Net Names (whether of Mexican descent
> or not), I'd be interested to hear the reasons why, how you use your name,
> whether it was self-conceived or given to you, how others perceive and use it
> on the Net, the process you may have gone through to choose a Nahua Net name
> for yourself, and perhaps what it means to you to bear a Nahua Net name in
> this small, small world.
>
> Alison King


From lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr  Tue Feb  8 10:05:00 2000
From: lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr (Patrick LESBRE)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 03:05:00 -0700
Subject: trying to find the word for...
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.030500.0700.>

At 20:03 05/02/00 -0700, vous avez =E9crit:
>please don't think this odd but i collect knives and weapons and was
>wondering what the name for the "aztec sword" is in nahuatl.  i've seen
>a couple of examples at the New York Natural History Museum, but would
>also like to know if anyone knows where i could find a picture on the
>net somewhere.  i was thinking about trying to commission a flintknapper
>to make one and am baffled about the method used to hold the blade in
>place.
>
>Lucas Molina
>
>

___________________

Patrick LESBRE
Universit=E9 de Toulouse le Mirail
32 rue la Fonderie
31000 TOULOUSE
t=E9l./fax  33(0)5 61 14 26 99
email lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr


From muyalbalam03 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  8 10:18:00 2000
From: muyalbalam03 at hotmail.com (Roberto Tirado)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 03:18:00 -0700
Subject: trying to find the word for...
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.031800.0700.>

macehuatl


From: Patrick LESBRE <lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr>
Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Subject: Re: trying to find the word for...
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 03:05:15 -0700

At 20:03 05/02/00 -0700, vous avez =E9crit:
 >please don't think this odd but i collect knives and weapons and was
 >wondering what the name for the "aztec sword" is in nahuatl.  i've seen
 >a couple of examples at the New York Natural History Museum, but would
 >also like to know if anyone knows where i could find a picture on the
 >net somewhere.  i was thinking about trying to commission a flintknapper
 >to make one and am baffled about the method used to hold the blade in
 >place.
 >
 >Lucas Molina
 >
 >

___________________

Patrick LESBRE
Universit=E9 de Toulouse le Mirail
32 rue la Fonderie
31000 TOULOUSE
t=E9l./fax  33(0)5 61 14 26 99
email lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb  8 13:03:08 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 06:03:08 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.060308.0700.>

> Frances,
>
> it would be interesting to see if the Tlaxcalteca honorific methodology
> of speaking to their elders has been transmitted to the modern Mexican
> Spanish spoken in the area.



Yes it has.  In all its complexity.

But there are complicated forces at work. Some communities dispense with the
honorifics in the interest of community solidarity, and even in
Puebla-Tlaxcala, language shift to Spanish looms.

Jane and Ken Hill and Alberto Zepeda (of San Miguel Canoa) carried out a
long-term study of Nahuatl language use in the Malinche volcano area and
published it as a book titled "Speaking Mexicano."

Albertohtzin has also team-taught with Joe Campbell and me, teaching those
four levels of Malinche-area honorifics to quite a few other people from the
USA, Latin America, and even one from Africa.

Fran


From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb  8 13:37:11 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 06:37:11 -0700
Subject: trying to find the word for...
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.063711.0700.>

>  >please don't think this odd but i collect knives and weapons and was
>  >wondering what the name for the "aztec sword" is in nahuatl.
>

> macehuatl
>
Eh?  As several listeros have already pointed out, the word sought is
ma:ccuahuitl (from ma:c 'hand-locative' plus cuahuitl 'tree, wood, staff,
stick, or beam.'

The word ma:ce:hualli  (I am using the colon here to indicate a long vowel)
is a word often used where Spanish speakers would use 'indio.'  Its basic
meaning is one who is a subject to someone else.  So Nahuatl-speaking
commoners identified themselves as ma:ce:hualtin with respect to their lords
and rulers.

But by the rules of Nahuatl polite speech, the humble were raised up, while
the powerful minimized their own importance.  So supreme rulers almost
always referred to themselves as ma:ce:hualtin and usually
icno:ma:ce:hualtin 'poor commoners in need of compassion.'  This did not
fool anyone, of course.  Nor was it self-abasement.  When a ruler
resplendent in quetzal feathers and golden ear plugs spoke of himself as a
ma:ce:hualli, he was admired for his rhetorical correctness, and nobody
dared take any liberties or familiarities with such a proud and all-powerful
man.

Once the great lords of preconquest times had been brought low, there was
gradually less and less distinction between real ma:ce:hualtin and honorific
ones.  Once everybody had been made subjects of the Spanish king and the
Christian God, ma:ce:hualli came to mean 'indigenous person' (even used by
Nahuatl-speakers to refer to other indigenous peoples besides themselves)
and also 'speaker of Nahuatl.'  Besides Mexicano, another name in use for
Nahuatl among its speakers is ma:ce:huallahto:lli (< ma:ce:hual- plus
tlahto:lli 'speech").

There has been a mistaken etymology of ma:ce:hualli perpetuated through
studies that haven't taken vowel length and "saltillo" into account, namely
that one is a ma:ce:hualli because of one's deserving-ness.  This is because
there is a verb mahce:hualtia: 'to give someone what s/he deserves.'  And
there is actually a noun mahce:hualli meaning 'merit, recompense.'  But as
you see, the 'deserving' words have a saltillo in the first syllable where
the 'subject' words have a long vowel.

There is another colorful speculation on the root meaning of ma:ce:hualli
(which I don't personally put any stock in), that it has to do with people
who dance around in circles with their hands resting on their hips.  This
etymology makes the word up from ma:- 'hand' and the verb ce:huia: 'to rest
or relieve something (in this case, one's hands).

The way I see it, a society that is strictly divided into two parts, a
ruling elite and a productive body of workers (as Mesoamerican societies
were) needs a word for the ruling class (pi:piltin) and another for the
subject people (ma:ce:hualtin), and why should we ask for more arcane
underlying meanings?


Frances Karttunen


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Feb  8 13:52:21 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 06:52:21 -0700
Subject: ma:ce:hualli
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.065221.0700.>

Ref: Dr. Kartunnen
>
> Once the great lords of preconquest times had been brought low, there was
> gradually less and less distinction between real ma:ce:hualtin and honorific
> ones.  Once everybody had been made subjects of the Spanish king and the
> Christian God, ma:ce:hualli came to mean 'indigenous person' (even used by
> Nahuatl-speakers to refer to other indigenous peoples besides themselves)
> and also 'speaker of Nahuatl.'  Besides Mexicano, another name in use for
> Nahuatl among its speakers is ma:ce:huallahto:lli (< ma:ce:hual- plus
> tlahto:lli 'speech").

Se dice: nitlahtoah macehualcopa, 'hablo mexicano'


Michael McCafferty


From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Tue Feb  8 14:56:13 2000
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 07:56:13 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.075613.0700.>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01BF724B.0F059140
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

This debate is becoming increasingly comic and by no means educational.  I
thought this was a list of educated and academic people, who were able to be
polite with each other. I'm sure Mr. Schwaller has stopped this.

In any case, you don't say "guey", but "buey" -- and, politely: BUEYTZIN!!

Susana

-----Original Message-----
From: micc at home.com <micc at home.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: marted? 8 febbraio 2000 3.11
Subject: Re: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE


>aprende a escribir guey!!
>
>Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
>>
>> Hey Mario, an empty can makes the loudes noise, and you truely are an
empty
>> can!

------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01BF724B.0F059140
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	name="Susana Moraleda.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf"

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:Moraleda;Susana
FN:Susana Moraleda
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
REV:20000208T144208Z
END:VCARD

------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01BF724B.0F059140--


From dfrye at umich.edu  Tue Feb  8 15:09:22 2000
From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:09:22 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.080922.0700.>

> it would be interesting to see if the Tlaxcalteca honorific methodology
> of speaking to their elders has been transmitted to the modern Mexican
> Spanish spoken in the area.

I have often thought that the ubiquitous use of "-ito" in Mexican Spanish
might be related to Nahuatl "-tzin" -- especially in cases where the
diminutive is rarely heard elsewhere in the Spanish-speaking world, such
as "nuestros difuntitos" or "mis muertitos" to refer to one's family dead.
Any thoughts?


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Feb  8 15:25:16 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:25:16 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.082516.0700.>

On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, marisol wrote:
>
> This debate is becoming increasingly comic and by no means educational.  I
> thought this was a list of educated and academic people, who were able to be
> polite with each other. I'm sure Mr. Schwaller has stopped this.
> >
> >Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
> >>
> >> Hey Mario, an empty can makes the loudes noise, and you truely are an
> empty
> >> can!

Yours is an interesting note in that it made me think of who the
participants really are on this list. I think it was *perhaps* designed
for what you term "educated and academic people," but as is plainly clear.
Many have probably come on board because a friend told them about it.
Plus, they are actually interested in Nahuatl. Marvelous. Some have other
agendas in participating as is clear from certain messages. But I think
the sort of stuff that has been recently bounced around is actually quite
expected if one thinks about the diversity of the membership.

Michael


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Feb  8 15:28:08 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:28:08 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.082808.0700.>

The two rather seem to be independent creations. Spanish -ito/a seems to
have a cognate form in French -et (m.) and -ette (f.) in French.
Just an idea.

Michael


On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, David L. Frye wrote:

> > it would be interesting to see if the Tlaxcalteca honorific methodology
> > of speaking to their elders has been transmitted to the modern Mexican
> > Spanish spoken in the area.
>
> I have often thought that the ubiquitous use of "-ito" in Mexican Spanish
> might be related to Nahuatl "-tzin" -- especially in cases where the
> diminutive is rarely heard elsewhere in the Spanish-speaking world, such
> as "nuestros difuntitos" or "mis muertitos" to refer to one's family dead.
> Any thoughts?
>
>


From scalderon at ref.pemex.com  Tue Feb  8 15:30:55 2000
From: scalderon at ref.pemex.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:30:55 -0700
Subject: dont read: test
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.083055.0700.>

test


From cberry at cinenet.net  Tue Feb  8 18:05:47 2000
From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:05:47 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.110547.0700.>

On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Michael Mccafferty wrote:

> The two rather seem to be independent creations. Spanish -ito/a seems to
> have a cognate form in French -et (m.) and -ette (f.) in French.
> Just an idea.

I think the idea was not one of word (well, suffix) borrowing, but rather
one of form borrowing.  That is, the ubiquitous use of an honorific and
diminutive suffix in Nahuatl led to former Nahuatl-speaking cultures
making heavy use of the Spanish diminutive, occasionally as if it were an
honorific.  It's an intriguing idea.

--
   |   Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net
 --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |   "The road of Excess leads to the Palace
      of Wisdom" - William Blake


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Feb  8 18:21:03 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:21:03 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.112103.0700.>

On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Craig Berry wrote:

> On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Michael Mccafferty wrote:
>
> > The two rather seem to be independent creations. Spanish -ito/a seems to
> > have a cognate form in French -et (m.) and -ette (f.) in French.
> > Just an idea.
>
> I think the idea was not one of word (well, suffix) borrowing, but rather
> one of form borrowing.  That is, the ubiquitous use of an honorific and
> diminutive suffix in Nahuatl led to former Nahuatl-speaking cultures
> making heavy use of the Spanish diminutive, occasionally as if it were an
> honorific.  It's an intriguing idea.

oh, I see. yeah, that is intriguing!

Michael


>
> --
>    |   Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net
>  --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
>    |   "The road of Excess leads to the Palace
>       of Wisdom" - William Blake
>


Michael McCafferty
C.E.L.T.
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

*******************************************************************************
"Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
from the me that others don't know
to the other me that I don't know.

-Juan Ramon Jimenez

*******************************************************************************


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Feb  8 18:34:56 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:34:56 -0700
Subject: ma:ce:hualli
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.113456.0700.>

On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Michael Mccafferty wrote:

>
> Ref: Dr. Kartunnen
> >
> > Once the great lords of preconquest times had been brought low, there was
> > gradually less and less distinction between real ma:ce:hualtin and honorific
> > ones.  Once everybody had been made subjects of the Spanish king and the
> > Christian God, ma:ce:hualli came to mean 'indigenous person' (even used by
> > Nahuatl-speakers to refer to other indigenous peoples besides themselves)
> > and also 'speaker of Nahuatl.'  Besides Mexicano, another name in use for
> > Nahuatl among its speakers is ma:ce:huallahto:lli (< ma:ce:hual- plus
> > tlahto:lli 'speech").
>
> Se dice: nitlahtoah macehualcopa, 'hablo mexicano'

Michael, that's actually /nitlahto:a' ma:ce:hualcopa/


Best,

Michael


>
>
> Michael McCafferty
>
>


Michael McCafferty


From fjgs at servidor.unam.mx  Wed Feb  9 04:20:47 2000
From: fjgs at servidor.unam.mx (Ehecatecolotl)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:20:47 -0700
Subject: ma:ce:hualli
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.212047.0700.>

Xinechmopohpolhuili, yeceh ya oniccac nican ompa Tenochtitlan nictlahtoa in
macehuallahtolli.

Tlazohcamati
Ehecatecolotl.


>Se dice: nitlahtoah macehualcopa, 'hablo mexicano'


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Feb  8 22:45:25 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 15:45:25 -0700
Subject: New system - PLEASE SAVE THIS
Message-ID: <TUE.08.FEB.2000.154525.0700.>

Dear Subacribers,

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John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/



From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb  8 23:13:29 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:13:29 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.161329.0700.>

It's been an intriguing idea for a very, very long time, but the peculiar 
distribution of Spanish diminutive -ito/a in the Americas is much broader
than the formerly Nahuatl-speaking areas of core Mesoamerica.

Still, I feel (as everyone else does) that the difunditos/muertitos usage of
Mexico parallels the Nahuatl use so closely that it's hard to convince
oneself that they have nothing to do with each other.  The only
quasi-first-person use of honorific -tzin that Jim Lockhart and I found in
the hundreds of colonial Nahuatl documents we read was in the case of a
woman dictating her testament and making provisions for her corpse to lie
before the altarof her local church before burial.  Referring to herself
after death, she used the honorific.

Fran Karttunen

----------
>From: Craig Berry <cberry at cinenet.net>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: is it zin or tzin??
>Date: Tue, Feb 8, 2000, 1:07 PM
>

> On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Michael Mccafferty wrote:
>
>> The two rather seem to be independent creations. Spanish -ito/a seems to
>> have a cognate form in French -et (m.) and -ette (f.) in French.
>> Just an idea.
>
> I think the idea was not one of word (well, suffix) borrowing, but rather
> one of form borrowing.  That is, the ubiquitous use of an honorific and
> diminutive suffix in Nahuatl led to former Nahuatl-speaking cultures
> making heavy use of the Spanish diminutive, occasionally as if it were an
> honorific.  It's an intriguing idea.
>
> --
>    |   Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net
>  --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
>    |   "The road of Excess leads to the Palace
>       of Wisdom" - William Blake
> 



From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb  8 23:23:52 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:23:52 -0700
Subject: ma:ce:hualli
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.162352.0700.>

>> Ref: Dr. Kartunnen


And while we are on matters of precise segmental representation, to say
nothing of standard orthography, my Finnish name has a geminate -tt- and no
geminate -nn-.  The name is made up of the noun karttu- and the suffix -nen.
Getting it wrong makes simple-minded computer searches come up empty-handed.

Fran KarTTu-Nen.



From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb  8 23:44:10 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:44:10 -0700
Subject: ma:ce:hualli
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.164410.0700.>

>> 
>> Se dice: nitlahtoah macehualcopa, 'hablo mexicano'
> 
> Michael, that's actually /nitlahto:a' ma:ce:hualcopa/


Nope.  Not quite.  The first-person singular verb form is nitlahtoa.  The o
is not long, and in the singular there is no final saltillo (whether you
choose to spell it with -h or with -').

HOWEVER, in some varieties of currently spoken Nahuatl, there is an
aspiration of final vowels that are NOT followed by saltillo.  If that's
what your final -h means, ok.  But most people who write segmental saltillos
use the letter -h for that rather than for nonsegmental aspiration.

Fran



From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Wed Feb  9 00:14:35 2000
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:14:35 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.171435.0700.>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01B6_01BF7299.E65A3EE0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

"es muy facil ver la paja en el ojo ajeno y no la viga en el
propio".............


Susana


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Mccafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
Date: marted? 8 febbraio 2000 16.30
Subject: Re: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE


>
>
>On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, marisol wrote:
>>
>> This debate is becoming increasingly comic and by no means educational.
I
>> thought this was a list of educated and academic people, who were able to
be
>> polite with each other. I'm sure Mr. Schwaller has stopped this.
>> >
>> >Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hey Mario, an empty can makes the loudes noise, and you truely are an
>> empty
>> >> can!
>
>Yours is an interesting note in that it made me think of who the
>participants really are on this list. I think it was *perhaps* designed
>for what you term "educated and academic people," but as is plainly clear.
>Many have probably come on board because a friend told them about it.
>Plus, they are actually interested in Nahuatl. Marvelous. Some have other
>agendas in participating as is clear from certain messages. But I think
>the sort of stuff that has been recently bounced around is actually quite
>expected if one thinks about the diversity of the membership.
>
>Michael
>


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	name="Susana Moraleda.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf"

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:Moraleda;Susana
FN:Susana Moraleda
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
REV:20000208T220411Z
END:VCARD

------=_NextPart_000_01B6_01BF7299.E65A3EE0--



From Amapohuani at aol.com  Wed Feb  9 00:45:01 2000
From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:45:01 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.174501.0700.>

In a message dated 2/8/00 3:24:04 PM, karttu at nantucket.net writes:

<< It's been an intriguing idea for a very, very long time, but the peculiar 
distribution of Spanish diminutive -ito/a in the Americas is much broader
than the formerly Nahuatl-speaking areas of core Mesoamerica.

Still, I feel (as everyone else does) that the difunditos/muertitos usage of
Mexico parallels the Nahuatl use so closely that it's hard to convince
oneself that they have nothing to do with each other.  The only
quasi-first-person use of honorific -tzin that Jim Lockhart and I found in
the hundreds of colonial Nahuatl documents we read was in the case of a
woman dictating her testament and making provisions for her corpse to lie
before the altarof her local church before burial.  Referring to herself
after death, she used the honorific.

Fran Karttunen >>

Listeros:

There are also a few (very few) occurrences in colonial Nahuatl 
ecclesiastical texts of first person use of -tzin. I am reminded of this 
because (literally) today I came across one while working on the Nahuatl 
drama YN ANIMASTIN YHVAN ALBACEASME (part of the Nahuatl Theater Series 
Louise Burkhart and I are working on). Occurs almost two thirds of the way 
through.  Towards the end of a response to Saint Mary, Christ at one point 
says "auh in nehuatzin." My vague memories of the other occurrences is that 
they involve God the Father speaking. 

Of course, the trouble with such materials is the uncertain extent to which 
native and non-native speakers of Nahuatl contributed to such texts. However 
in many respects this play and others like them have so many indications of 
direct Nahua intervention in their writing and/or translation from 
Spanish/Latin models that it is difficult to automatically ascribe this usage 
to a well-meaning (if not fully informed and fluent) Hispanic/Hispanized 
priest or layperson. 

Ye ixquich.
Barry D. Sell



From micc at home.com  Wed Feb  9 02:07:40 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:07:40 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.190740.0700.>

thanks Francis!


Where can one purchase this booK  "Speaking Mexicano"????




Frances Karttunen wrote:
> 
> > Frances,
> >
> > it would be interesting to see if the Tlaxcalteca honorific methodology
> > of speaking to their elders has been transmitted to the modern Mexican
> > Spanish spoken in the area.
> 
> Yes it has.  In all its complexity.
> 
> But there are complicated forces at work. Some communities dispense with the
> honorifics in the interest of community solidarity, and even in
> Puebla-Tlaxcala, language shift to Spanish looms.
> 
> Jane and Ken Hill and Alberto Zepeda (of San Miguel Canoa) carried out a
> long-term study of Nahuatl language use in the Malinche volcano area and
> published it as a book titled "Speaking Mexicano."
> 
> Albertohtzin has also team-taught with Joe Campbell and me, teaching those
> four levels of Malinche-area honorifics to quite a few other people from the
> USA, Latin America, and even one from Africa.
> 
> Fran



From micc at home.com  Wed Feb  9 02:17:54 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:17:54 -0700
Subject: trying to find the word for...
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.191754.0700.>

Frances,

This is a very interesting analysis, especially for me since i am trying
to find the root of macehauliztli, the dance ( as opposed to the more
common understood mi'totiliztli and netotiliztli)


Last year (or was it the year before) I hypothesized that mi'totia came
from  i'toa, but I was proven wrong.  Can you tell me what you believe
is the root of macehua (dancar in Molina) .

thanks!!!

mario e. aguilar
www.aguila-blanca.com

Frances Karttunen wrote:
> 
> >  >please don't think this odd but i collect knives and weapons and was
> >  >wondering what the name for the "aztec sword" is in nahuatl.
> >
> 
> > macehuatl
> >
> Eh?  As several listeros have already pointed out, the word sought is
> ma:ccuahuitl (from ma:c 'hand-locative' plus cuahuitl 'tree, wood, staff,
> stick, or beam.'
> 
> The word ma:ce:hualli  (I am using the colon here to indicate a long vowel)
> is a word often used where Spanish speakers would use 'indio.'  Its basic
> meaning is one who is a subject to someone else.  So Nahuatl-speaking
> commoners identified themselves as ma:ce:hualtin with respect to their lords
> and rulers.
> 
> But by the rules of Nahuatl polite speech, the humble were raised up, while
> the powerful minimized their own importance.  So supreme rulers almost
> always referred to themselves as ma:ce:hualtin and usually
> icno:ma:ce:hualtin 'poor commoners in need of compassion.'  This did not
> fool anyone, of course.  Nor was it self-abasement.  When a ruler
> resplendent in quetzal feathers and golden ear plugs spoke of himself as a
> ma:ce:hualli, he was admired for his rhetorical correctness, and nobody
> dared take any liberties or familiarities with such a proud and all-powerful
> man.
> 
> Once the great lords of preconquest times had been brought low, there was
> gradually less and less distinction between real ma:ce:hualtin and honorific
> ones.  Once everybody had been made subjects of the Spanish king and the
> Christian God, ma:ce:hualli came to mean 'indigenous person' (even used by
> Nahuatl-speakers to refer to other indigenous peoples besides themselves)
> and also 'speaker of Nahuatl.'  Besides Mexicano, another name in use for
> Nahuatl among its speakers is ma:ce:huallahto:lli (< ma:ce:hual- plus
> tlahto:lli 'speech").
> 
> There has been a mistaken etymology of ma:ce:hualli perpetuated through
> studies that haven't taken vowel length and "saltillo" into account, namely
> that one is a ma:ce:hualli because of one's deserving-ness.  This is because
> there is a verb mahce:hualtia: 'to give someone what s/he deserves.'  And
> there is actually a noun mahce:hualli meaning 'merit, recompense.'  But as
> you see, the 'deserving' words have a saltillo in the first syllable where
> the 'subject' words have a long vowel.
> 
> There is another colorful speculation on the root meaning of ma:ce:hualli
> (which I don't personally put any stock in), that it has to do with people
> who dance around in circles with their hands resting on their hips.  This
> etymology makes the word up from ma:- 'hand' and the verb ce:huia: 'to rest
> or relieve something (in this case, one's hands).
> 
> The way I see it, a society that is strictly divided into two parts, a
> ruling elite and a productive body of workers (as Mesoamerican societies
> were) needs a word for the ruling class (pi:piltin) and another for the
> subject people (ma:ce:hualtin), and why should we ask for more arcane
> underlying meanings?
> 
> Frances Karttunen



From micc at home.com  Wed Feb  9 02:18:01 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:18:01 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.191801.0700.>

I think that David was not referring to the actual ending of "ito"
coming from Nahuatl "tzin".  I think he meant the concept of
exquisiteness as a Mexican language trait,

Michael Mccafferty wrote:
> 
> The two rather seem to be independent creations. Spanish -ito/a seems to
> have a cognate form in French -et (m.) and -ette (f.) in French.
> Just an idea.
> 
> Michael
> 
> On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, David L. Frye wrote:
> 
> > > it would be interesting to see if the Tlaxcalteca honorific methodology
> > > of speaking to their elders has been transmitted to the modern Mexican
> > > Spanish spoken in the area.
> >
> > I have often thought that the ubiquitous use of "-ito" in Mexican Spanish
> > might be related to Nahuatl "-tzin" -- especially in cases where the
> > diminutive is rarely heard elsewhere in the Spanish-speaking world, such
> > as "nuestros difuntitos" or "mis muertitos" to refer to one's family dead.
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> >



From karttu at nantucket.net  Wed Feb  9 03:29:40 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 20:29:40 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.202940.0700.>

> thanks Francis!

Actually, it's Frances.  But I just go by Fran to avoid the masculine i vs.
feminine e confusion.
>
>
> Where can one purchase this booK  "Speaking Mexicano"????
>
> Amazon.com has it for sale, but it's expensive.  Try interlibrary loan for a
cheaper read.
> 



From karttu at nantucket.net  Wed Feb  9 03:40:01 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 20:40:01 -0700
Subject: trying to find the word for...
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.204001.0700.>

> Frances,
> 
> This is a very interesting analysis, especially for me since i am trying
> to find the root of macehauliztli, the dance ( as opposed to the more
> common understood mi'totiliztli and netotiliztli)
>
>
> Last year (or was it the year before) I hypothesized that mi'totia came
> from  i'toa, but I was proven wrong.  Can you tell me what you believe
> is the root of macehua (dancar in Molina) .
>

Sorry, but I have no idea.  It was J. Richard Andrews in his "Introduction
to Classical Nahuatl" who wrote about the "hand-resting" dance as a source
for ma:ce:hualli 'subject, commoner.'  Because Molina doesn't indicate vowel
length or saltillo, it's impossible to know whether the verb about dancing
is the same or different from the verb about deserving or the noun about
being a subject without additional information from other sources.  I don't
know where Andrews got such additional information (or if he did).



From micc at home.com  Wed Feb  9 04:00:21 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:00:21 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.210021.0700.>

So Sorry Fran!!!

an thanks for the info


mario




Frances Karttunen wrote:
> 
> > thanks Francis!
> 
> Actually, it's Frances.  But I just go by Fran to avoid the masculine i vs.
> feminine e confusion.
> >
> >
> > Where can one purchase this booK  "Speaking Mexicano"????
> >
> > Amazon.com has it for sale, but it's expensive.  Try interlibrary loan for a
> cheaper read.
> >



From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Wed Feb  9 05:11:41 2000
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 22:11:41 -0700
Subject: is it zin or tzin??
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.221141.0700.>

I picked up a copy of the Spanish versi?n at the Casa Chata (CIESAS) in
M?xico City.
	John Sullivan
	Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas

-----Mensaje original-----
De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]En
nombre de micc at home.com
Enviado el: Martes, 08 de Febrero de 2000 08:08 p.m.
Para: Multiple recipients of list
Asunto: Re: is it zin or tzin??

thanks Francis!


Where can one purchase this booK  "Speaking Mexicano"????




Frances Karttunen wrote:
>
> > Frances,
> >
> > it would be interesting to see if the Tlaxcalteca honorific methodology
> > of speaking to their elders has been transmitted to the modern Mexican
> > Spanish spoken in the area.
>
> Yes it has.  In all its complexity.
>
> But there are complicated forces at work. Some communities dispense with
the
> honorifics in the interest of community solidarity, and even in
> Puebla-Tlaxcala, language shift to Spanish looms.
>
> Jane and Ken Hill and Alberto Zepeda (of San Miguel Canoa) carried out a
> long-term study of Nahuatl language use in the Malinche volcano area and
> published it as a book titled "Speaking Mexicano."
>
> Albertohtzin has also team-taught with Joe Campbell and me, teaching those
> four levels of Malinche-area honorifics to quite a few other people from
the
> USA, Latin America, and even one from Africa.
>
> Fran


From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Wed Feb  9 05:22:02 2000
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 22:22:02 -0700
Subject: ma:ce:hualli
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2000.222202.0700.>

Chapulhuacanito, San Luis Potos?, macehualmeh quitoah "Nah nicamanaloa ca
nahuatl", uan Chicontepec, Veracruz, quitoah "Nah nizaniloa ca nahuatl".
	John Sullivan
	Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas

-----Mensaje original-----
De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]En
nombre de Ehecatecolotl
Enviado el: Martes, 08 de Febrero de 2000 10:21 p.m.
Para: Multiple recipients of list
Asunto: Re: ma:ce:hualli

Xinechmopohpolhuili, yeceh ya oniccac nican ompa Tenochtitlan nictlahtoa in
macehuallahtolli.

Tlazohcamati
Ehecatecolotl.


>Se dice: nitlahtoah macehualcopa, 'hablo mexicano'


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Feb  9 13:37:07 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 06:37:07 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.063707.0700.>

Thanks Frances, for the correction. My understanding about the saltillo is
that it represents a glottal stop, and that the glottal stop is present in
the singular present indicative and is not present in the plural.  Please
fill me in.

tlazohcamati,

Michael


From karttu at nantucket.net  Wed Feb  9 14:17:36 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:17:36 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.071736.0700.>

It's the opposite.  The saltillo functions as the plural marker in the
present indicative.

Verbs like tlahtoa: shorten the final vowel before saltillo and also when
the a: is word-final, so you never see/hear that it is long in the present
indicative.  But in the habitual present (that adds -ni) and the imperfect
(that adds -ya), the a: is long.

In the future, where the a: is dropped before the future suffix -z, the
vowel goes away but casts its length back on the preceding vowel.  Then you
do get o: as in nitlahto:z "I will speak."

Fran

----------
>From: Michael Mccafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: tlahtoa
>Date: Wed, Feb 9, 2000, 8:37 AM
>

>
> Thanks Frances, for the correction. My understanding about the saltillo is
> that it represents a glottal stop, and that the glottal stop is present in
> the singular present indicative and is not present in the plural.  Please
> fill me in.
>
> tlazohcamati,
>
> Michael
>


From JAikin at neh.gov  Wed Feb  9 15:31:39 2000
From: JAikin at neh.gov (Aikin, Jane (by way of "John F. Schwaller"
 <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>))
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:31:39 -0700
Subject: FW: NEH Fellowships
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.083139.0700.JAIKIN@NEH.GOV>

Jane Aikin
Senior Academic Advisor
NEH Fellowships


  NEH Fellowships, 2001-2002

  Deadline:  May 1, 2000

  The National Endowment for the Humanities announces the competition for
  Fellowships for 2001-2002.  These Fellowships provide opportunities for
  individuals to pursue advanced work in the humanities.  Applicants may be
  faculty or staff members of colleges or universities or of primary or
  secondary schools.  Scholars and writers working independently, in
  institutions such as museums, libraries, and historical associations, or
  in institutions with no connection to the humanities also are eligible to
  apply.

  NEH Fellowships support a variety of activities.  Projects may contribute
  to scholarly knowledge, to the advancement of teaching, or to the general
  public understanding of the humanities.  Award recipients might eventually
  produce scholarly articles, a book-length treatment of a broad topic, an
  archaeological site report, a translation, an edition, a database, or some
  other scholarly tool.

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From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Wed Feb  9 15:39:23 2000
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:39:23 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.083923.0700.>

Fran,
Do we have to distinguish here between Classical and modern dialects?
As a fellow graduate of the "Joe Campbell school of Nahuatl," I was under the
same impression as Michael with regards to many(most?) modern dialects.
(Disclaimer: I take full responsibility for my ignorance and any stupid thing I
say should not reflect in any way upon Joe.)
It was my understanding that in Classical Nahuatl the saltillo functioned as the
plural marker in the present indicative and was written as an "h", but that in
many modern dialects it is the opposite: the saltillo marks the singular verbs
and a slight aspiration or nothing at all marks the plural. I think this is what
causes so much confusion when comparing classical orthography and modern speech
because if a modern speaker marks plurality with a slight aspiration, then the
"h" which represented a saltillo in Classical is taken for an aspiration. I
think this is what caused the confusion a while back on this list in regards to
the saltillo/glottal stop. I haven't had a lot of experience with native
speakers, but it seems to me that at least Tlaxcalan Nahuatl tends to aspirate
what was a glottal stop in Classical, and uses the glottal stop to mark the
singular indicative and other words that end in vowels without aspiration. If I
am correct, Classical orthography works very nicely with such modern dialects as
long as you reinterpret the h=saltillo as h=aspiration and you place a glottal
stop at the end of words that end in vowels. Is this an accurate assessment?
Galen

Frances Karttunen wrote:

> It's the opposite.  The saltillo functions as the plural marker in the
> present indicative.
>
> Verbs like tlahtoa: shorten the final vowel before saltillo and also when
> the a: is word-final, so you never see/hear that it is long in the present
> indicative.  But in the habitual present (that adds -ni) and the imperfect
> (that adds -ya), the a: is long.
>
> In the future, where the a: is dropped before the future suffix -z, the
> vowel goes away but casts its length back on the preceding vowel.  Then you
> do get o: as in nitlahto:z "I will speak."
>
> Fran
>
> ----------
> >From: Michael Mccafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> >To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: tlahtoa
> >Date: Wed, Feb 9, 2000, 8:37 AM
> >
>
> >
> > Thanks Frances, for the correction. My understanding about the saltillo is
> > that it represents a glottal stop, and that the glottal stop is present in
> > the singular present indicative and is not present in the plural.  Please
> > fill me in.
> >
> > tlazohcamati,
> >
> > Michael
> >


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Wed Feb  9 16:52:18 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:52:18 -0700
Subject: Speaking Mexicano
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.095218.0700.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

The Hill's book, Speaking mexicano, is available from the Arizona
University Press or your favorite bookstore.  Here is the info from Barnes
Noble:


 Speaking Mexicano: The Dynamics of Syncretic Language in Central Mexico
 In-Stock: Ships within 24 hours.
 Jane H. Hill,Kenneth C. Hill / Hardcover / University of Arizona Press /
May 1986
 Our Price: $39.20, You Save 30%


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Wed Feb  9 17:47:52 2000
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:47:52 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.104752.0700.>

Galen,

I think I remember that conversation also--that the modern final saltillo
tends to be aspirant, and I think part of the issue is what is the
saltillo.  To teach the saltillo to non-Nahuatl speakers, it is imperative
to emphasize clear glottal stops that emanate and terminate below the
mouth. Yet,I think it is Carochi who remarks that the Tlaxcaltecas aspirated the
glottal stop, and I imagine that a diversity of glottal stops have
existed historically in Nahuatl language communities.  So, I think the
main point about the saltillo is that it is not similar to Spanish, French
and English phonemes and has to be learned as an extra by most students
of Nahuatl , and perhaps has been unlearned in some parts by Nahuatl
speakers.

yours,
Mark

On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Galen Brokaw wrote:

> Fran,
> Do we have to distinguish here between Classical and modern dialects?
> As a fellow graduate of the "Joe Campbell school of Nahuatl," I was under the
> same impression as Michael with regards to many(most?) modern dialects.
> (Disclaimer: I take full responsibility for my ignorance and any stupid thing I
> say should not reflect in any way upon Joe.)
> It was my understanding that in Classical Nahuatl the saltillo functioned as the
> plural marker in the present indicative and was written as an "h", but that in
> many modern dialects it is the opposite: the saltillo marks the singular verbs
> and a slight aspiration or nothing at all marks the plural. I think this is what
> causes so much confusion when comparing classical orthography and modern speech
> because if a modern speaker marks plurality with a slight aspiration, then the
> "h" which represented a saltillo in Classical is taken for an aspiration. I
> think this is what caused the confusion a while back on this list in regards to
> the saltillo/glottal stop. I haven't had a lot of experience with native
> speakers, but it seems to me that at least Tlaxcalan Nahuatl tends to aspirate
> what was a glottal stop in Classical, and uses the glottal stop to mark the
> singular indicative and other words that end in vowels without aspiration. If I
> am correct, Classical orthography works very nicely with such modern dialects as
> long as you reinterpret the h=saltillo as h=aspiration and you place a glottal
> stop at the end of words that end in vowels. Is this an accurate assessment?
> Galen
>
> Frances Karttunen wrote:
>
> > It's the opposite.  The saltillo functions as the plural marker in the
> > present indicative.
> >
> > Verbs like tlahtoa: shorten the final vowel before saltillo and also when
> > the a: is word-final, so you never see/hear that it is long in the present
> > indicative.  But in the habitual present (that adds -ni) and the imperfect
> > (that adds -ya), the a: is long.
> >
> > In the future, where the a: is dropped before the future suffix -z, the
> > vowel goes away but casts its length back on the preceding vowel.  Then you
> > do get o: as in nitlahto:z "I will speak."
> >
> > Fran
> >
> > ----------
> > >From: Michael Mccafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
> > >To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
> > >Subject: Re: tlahtoa
> > >Date: Wed, Feb 9, 2000, 8:37 AM
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks Frances, for the correction. My understanding about the saltillo is
> > > that it represents a glottal stop, and that the glottal stop is present in
> > > the singular present indicative and is not present in the plural.  Please
> > > fill me in.
> > >
> > > tlazohcamati,
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
>



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
grief. Eccl 1:18

To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From heatherhess at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  9 17:58:28 2000
From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:58:28 -0700
Subject: mixiotes
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.105828.0700.>

hola ' i have to be fast!!!!!   i was at a woman??s house the other day and
had the most amazing cake i have ever tasted ' her name is veronica ' her
house is in tepatitlan ' you know ' near guadalajara.  at any rate i have
asked her for the recipe and am sure you will enjoy it too!!!!!!  mmmmm!!!!
mmmmm!  mmmmm!

veronica and a friend of mine have a small group of people that live in
tepatitlan and are learning italian.  eventually they want to go to italy.
i was bragging about you and told veronica i would connect the two of you!

i have carbon copied veronica as well!

heather

talk to you soon  ' my new name is Yoholotizn


>From: "marisol" <marisol at tiscalinet.it>
>Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Subject: Re: mixiotes
>Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:21:27 -0700
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BF6C49.515B17C0
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
>Hola Ivan,
>
>Los mixiotes que yo conozco son la tela que cubre la penca del maguey.
>Esta
>se pone a remojar para que ablande y sea flexible (alrededor de dos horas).
>Se corta en cuadros de 25 cms. aproximadamente.
>
>Me parece que esta receta es de Tlaxcala (yo no sabia que era de origen
>prehispanico!!)
>
>Bueno, pues se tuestan los chiles anchos, se desvenan y se ponen a remojar
>en caldo de carne.  Usando el mismo caldo se muelen junto con ajo, cebolla
>y
>almendra pelada.  Se sazona con sal y oregano.  Se corta la carne de
>carnero
>en pedazos pequenos y se pone a macerar en la salsa durante media hora.
>
>Se extienden las hojas de mixiote y a cada una se le pone una hoja de
>aguacate y la carne bien banada en salsa.  Se toman las puntas del mixiote
>jalandolas hacia arriba y se amarran formando bolsitas.  Se ponen a cocer
>al
>vapor.
>
>Perdon, pero no se darte cantidades.
>
>Espero que te sirva y te guste.
>
>Cordialmente,
>
>Susana Moraleda
>(una mexicana en Italia)
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: yo' daddy <elazteca at collegeclub.com>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <nahuat-l at server.umt.edu>
>Date: luned? 31 gennaio 2000 19.12
>Subject: mixiotes
>
>
> >Hello all @ nahuat-l:
> >I was woundering if anyone can fill me in on a pre-hispanic food called
> >"Mixiotes" (Ibelieve).  To the best of my understanding it is a Tamal
>like
> >eatable wrapped in Maguey leaves with Chicken (or other meat) and spices.
> >If anyone out there knows more, please share the knowledge.  Thank you so
> >much...
> >Ivan Ochoa
> >
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Why is College Club the largest and fastest growing college student site?
> >Find out for yourself at http://www.collegeclub.com
> >
> >
>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BF6C49.515B17C0
>Content-Type: text/x-vcard;
>	name="Susana Moraleda.vcf"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Disposition: attachment;
>	filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf"
>
>BEGIN:VCARD
>VERSION:2.1
>N:Moraleda;Susana
>FN:Susana Moraleda
>EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
>REV:20000131T231311Z
>END:VCARD
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BF6C49.515B17C0--
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Wed Feb  9 20:28:34 2000
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:28:34 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.132834.0700.>

The saltillo spoken by the two native speakers from the Huasteca I work with
goes like this:
1. between two vowels it sounds just like an English "h": "ahacatl" = wind
2. between a vowel and a consonant it sounds like the saltillo described in
the classical grammars (Like Mark says : glottal stops that emanate and
terminate below the mouth): "ohtli" = road
3. at the end of a word it's a barely audible aspiration after the vowel:
"ticamanaloah" = we talk.

	John Sullivan
	Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas


From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Wed Feb  9 19:20:35 2000
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:20:35 -0700
Subject: Preclassic, classic and postclassic
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.122035.0700.>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF732B.B4BF7F20
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I have started a research on pre-Aztec history in central Mexico, and found
that each source I have consulted, gives different years for the division of
the pre-classic, classic and post-classic periods.

PRECLASSIC from 1500 BC till the start of AD? or till year 100? or till year
300?

CLASSIC from X above till 750, 800 or 900 AD?

POSTCLASSIC from X above till 1521?

Some other sources name an "ARCHAIC" period lasting till 1500 BC (?)

Is a consensus on this division?

I would be grateful if someone could enlighten me, and/or indicate which
reliable texts/web sites to consult.

Susana Moraleda



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	filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf"

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
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FN:Susana Moraleda
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
REV:20000209T173013Z
END:VCARD

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF732B.B4BF7F20--


From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Wed Feb  9 21:49:46 2000
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 14:49:46 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.144946.0700.>

Hi John,
Ok, but isn't it misleading to call all of these phenomena "saltillo"?
The way I understand it, "saltillo" is the word in Spanish that refers to the
glottal stop ["a little jump"]. It seems to me that the rules that you list
below force the term "saltillo"[=glottal stop] to apply to all phenomena that
were glottal stops in Classical Nahuatl, but some of which have evolved and
turned into something else, such as an aspiration. I think this problem arises
from applying older linguistic descriptions to modern speech without taking into
account changes in pronunciation.
The best explanation for these changes that I have heard is that in Classical
Nahuatl the "saltillo" was actually a glottal stop followed by an aspiration
when the stop is released (kind of like a grunt, I guess). In some environments,
the glottal stop was lost leaving only an aspiration. Although Joe is my source
for this, I believe he heard it from another linguist. Of course, this doesn't
explain why the singular indicative marker would acquire the glottal stop where
it didn't exist before.
Getting back to the terminology, I would argue the following:
1. "saltillo" means "glottal stop"
2. Depending upon the modern dialect some/many/all sounds that were
saltillos/glottal stops in Classical have evolved (into aspirations, for
example), and therefore should no longer be described as saltillos/glottal
stops.

Galen

John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:

> The saltillo spoken by the two native speakers from the Huasteca I work with
> goes like this:
> 1. between two vowels it sounds just like an English "h": "ahacatl" = wind
> 2. between a vowel and a consonant it sounds like the saltillo described in
> the classical grammars (Like Mark says : glottal stops that emanate and
> terminate below the mouth): "ohtli" = road
> 3. at the end of a word it's a barely audible aspiration after the vowel:
> "ticamanaloah" = we talk.
>
>         John Sullivan
>         Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas


From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Thu Feb 10 00:52:42 2000
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:52:42 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.175242.0700.>

Galen,
	First of all, if I'm not mistaken, Carochi distiguishes between the
pronunciation of the word-internal and the word-final saltillo.  In other
words, saltillo refers not to a specific sound, but to a distinct linguistic
element whose sound may vary in different environments (I know there is a
word for this in linguistics: is it phoneme?  I can't remember.)  The
important thing is that this linguistic element (with its sound variations)
was used then and is still used now as the plural marker for the present
tense.  Its pronunciation may have evolved (although I'm not so sure), but
its function in this case is the same.
	I don't think what you hear at the end of the singular indicative is a
glottal stop.  This problem is precisely what called my attention to the
aspirated nature of the word final saltillo.  One of the native speakers I
work with (who is from Chapulhuacanito, municipio de Tamazunchale, San Luis
Potos?), pronounces what would standardly be considered a word final "i", as
an "e" (Spanish pronunciation reference).  Noting also that he uses a "t"
dialect, he would say, for example, "ayohte", instead of "ayohtli" for
calabaza.  The fun comes when a non-native speaker has to distinguish
between the singular and plural forms of preterite verbs.  Since he uses the
"old" singular marker, "-qui", which he pronounces "-que", we have for
example: "tinehnenque" = you walked, versus, "tinehnenqueh" = we walked.
When I first heard these two words, they sounded pretty much alike to me.
So I put my ear as close to my friends mouth as I could, and listened hard.
This is what I discovered.  First, the plural form ends with a barely
audible aspiration.  This is the saltillo.  The pronunciation of the vowel
which ends the singular form, terminates with a closing off of the throat.
But this is true of all word final vowels.  If they weren't pronounced this
way (with a definite end/closing of the throat), then air would escape the
mouth at the end of the pronunciation, and you will have added the saltillo.
(Which you don't want to do, unless that's really what you want to do,
right?)

	John Sullivan
	Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas

-----Mensaje original-----
De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]En
nombre de Galen Brokaw
Enviado el: Mi?rcoles, 09 de Febrero de 2000 03:50 p.m.
Para: Multiple recipients of list
Asunto: Re: tlahtoa / saltillo

Hi John,
Ok, but isn't it misleading to call all of these phenomena "saltillo"?
The way I understand it, "saltillo" is the word in Spanish that refers to
the
glottal stop ["a little jump"]. It seems to me that the rules that you list
below force the term "saltillo"[=glottal stop] to apply to all phenomena
that
were glottal stops in Classical Nahuatl, but some of which have evolved and
turned into something else, such as an aspiration. I think this problem
arises
from applying older linguistic descriptions to modern speech without taking
into
account changes in pronunciation.
The best explanation for these changes that I have heard is that in
Classical
Nahuatl the "saltillo" was actually a glottal stop followed by an aspiration
when the stop is released (kind of like a grunt, I guess). In some
environments,
the glottal stop was lost leaving only an aspiration. Although Joe is my
source
for this, I believe he heard it from another linguist. Of course, this
doesn't
explain why the singular indicative marker would acquire the glottal stop
where
it didn't exist before.
Getting back to the terminology, I would argue the following:
1. "saltillo" means "glottal stop"
2. Depending upon the modern dialect some/many/all sounds that were
saltillos/glottal stops in Classical have evolved (into aspirations, for
example), and therefore should no longer be described as saltillos/glottal
stops.

Galen

John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:

> The saltillo spoken by the two native speakers from the Huasteca I work
with
> goes like this:
> 1. between two vowels it sounds just like an English "h": "ahacatl" = wind
> 2. between a vowel and a consonant it sounds like the saltillo described
in
> the classical grammars (Like Mark says : glottal stops that emanate and
> terminate below the mouth): "ohtli" = road
> 3. at the end of a word it's a barely audible aspiration after the vowel:
> "ticamanaloah" = we talk.
>
>         John Sullivan
>         Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas


From micc at home.com  Thu Feb 10 05:46:57 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:46:57 -0700
Subject: Preclassic, classic and postclassic
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.224657.0700.>

Marisol,

the reason there is no consensus on what span of time the pre, classic,
and post, actually include is that not all areas fell into the "cultural
attributes" of these epochs.  for instance, although the Maya "classic
period" is said to end by the 800's A.D., some sites ended their
building programs earlier, and some went on into the "post classic"
period. Also, a great problem that many archeologists ignore when they
set the "starting dates" of eras, especially the pre-classic, is their
almost total absence of perishable materials (especially in the "olmeca
regions) that can be used to date the 'beginning" of a cultural
awakening.

  Who's is to say that the pre-classic did not start 2,000 earlier, with
nothing but wood, straw and paper utensils?  except for a few
discoveries, all we can judge by are the stone sculptures, and earthen
mounds that remain. I has always seemed to me that the "mysterious
olmeca" did not suddenly spring forth from the slimy steamy swamps of
tabasco and Veracruz.  They ahd to have had generations of empirical
evidence to create their writing, calendrical mastery, and religious
building blocks that later cultures would adopt and change.

imagine someone coming back from 3,000 years in the future. They could
say that judging but our current lack of using stone for building,
sculpture, and religious objects, the 20th century was a "dark age" in
human civilization....(and indeed it could be stated that it was judging
by WWWI and II, etc....) Not knowing of the perishable cultural
creations we have (paper or plastic?>>>>, virtual reality, imitation
mayonnaise, etc.)

basically the eras can be broken down into three general periods:

Pre-classic period:  "olmeca" Tres Zapotes, Monte Alban, Tlatilco,
Piedras negras, etc.

classic: Kaminaljuyu, Teotihucancan, Tikal, Palenque, Monete Alban,
Copan, Etc.

Post Classic: chichen Itza, Tajin, Cholula, Tollan-Xicocotitlan,
Azcapotzalco, Cacaxtla, Mayapan, Tulum, Tenochtitlan.


As any amateur ( the the full french sense of the word) can see, the
dates for these great and nobel sites overlap in many cases.  Even
though Teotihuacan was "abandoned" at the end of the classic period,
research shows that there were still people living in the city in
"toltec" times.  monte Alban stretches from pre-classic to Spanish
times.

In a crude and simplistic sense I would (and I probably will generate a
lot of "empty can mail" for this, but oh well...)
say that the pre-classic era was an era of local chiefdoms becoming city
states; writing was developed; and the pan-mesoamerican form of religion
was coalesced ( that is not to imply that there was a homogenous
"mesoamerican religion.  instead what I see is a "common denominator" of
imagery, venus worship ( as the Tlaloc-Quetzalcoatl cult) and human
sacrifice (here we go again!!!)

the classic was a period of state control of trade, religion, ritual
warfare, and a high level of mathmatics, egineering, artistic, and
literary development. It was also a time of serious and terminal
ecological destruction.

the post classic period was a time of "chichimec" intrusions into the
Mesoamerican world view. The Tlaloc-quetzalcoatl duality was replaced by
the tlaloc huitzilopochtli cult of the Mexi'ca   (of course this was not
the case everywhere!!) classic period institutions were transformed from
king based states to military-theocracies, The knowledge of the past was
religiously kept alive, memorized, and ritualized into mythology,
separate form its original historical relavence (Remember Tlacaelel
buring the ancient books with the 'truth" he did not want the Mexi'ca
people to know??). The "Toltec" lineage became of paramount authority in
highland maya ruling houses as well as in Chichen Itza (here is another
field of landmines!!), and of course in Anahuac where the Mexi'ca
systematically intermarried into the "cuhua" families of Culhuacan so
they could claim toltec blood.

Finally, it appears that the pochteca class was creating a powerbase
that transcended national boundires, since only they had the experitse
and contacts to bring elite goods form one area to another.


Anyway I will quit now, lest I be accused of pontificating again....:)





marisol wrote:
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF732B.B4BF7F20
> Content-Type: text/plain;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> I have started a research on pre-Aztec history in central Mexico, and found
> that each source I have consulted, gives different years for the division of
> the pre-classic, classic and post-classic periods.
>
> PRECLASSIC from 1500 BC till the start of AD? or till year 100? or till year
> 300?
>
> CLASSIC from X above till 750, 800 or 900 AD?
>
> POSTCLASSIC from X above till 1521?
>
> Some other sources name an "ARCHAIC" period lasting till 1500 BC (?)
>
> Is a consensus on this division?
>
> I would be grateful if someone could enlighten me, and/or indicate which
> reliable texts/web sites to consult.
>
> Susana Moraleda
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF732B.B4BF7F20
> Content-Type: text/x-vcard;
>         name="Susana Moraleda.vcf"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Disposition: attachment;
>         filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf"
>
> BEGIN:VCARD
> VERSION:2.1
> N:Moraleda;Susana
> FN:Susana Moraleda
> EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
> REV:20000209T173013Z
> END:VCARD
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF732B.B4BF7F20--


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Feb 10 11:53:00 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 04:53:00 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.045300.0700.>

On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:

> The saltillo spoken by the two native speakers from the Huasteca I work w=
ith
> goes like this:
> 1. between two vowels it sounds just like an English "h": "ahacatl" =3D w=
ind
> 2. between a vowel and a consonant it sounds like the saltillo described =
in
> the classical grammars (Like Mark says : glottal stops that emanate and
> terminate below the mouth): "ohtli" =3D road
> 3. at the end of a word it's a barely audible aspiration after the vowel:
> "ticamanaloah" =3D we talk.

John, does no. 3 go for both singular and plural?

Thanks,
Michael

>=20
> =09John Sullivan
> =09Universidad Aut=F3noma de Zacatecas
>=20
>=20
>=20


From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Thu Feb 10 16:05:53 2000
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:05:53 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.090553.0700.>

John,
I have to respectfully disagree. The linguistic terms you refer to are
phoneme and allophone. The phoneme is the phonetic element which may have
various allophones depending on the environment. In Spanish, for example,
the phoneme /n/ is pronounced one way when it is intervocalic and another
when it is followed by a [g] or [c] and another when followed by [t], etc.
The way you determine whether or not two sounds are separate phonemes or
allophones of the same phoneme is to try and find two different words that
are exactly the same except for the two sounds in question. If two such
words exist, then the sounds are separate phonemes. I don't have enough
experience to be able to make judgments about all modern dialects of
Nahuatl, but my impression is that the aspiration and the glottal stop are
two separate phonemes. I would support this by providing a contrastive
pair of words consisting of the singular and plural of the indicative.
Now, John, I know that you disagree that the singular ending of the
indicative is a glottal stop. It is tough to argue these kind of things
over email without the benefit of speech, and you have more access to
native informants than I do, but I still think that what you describe as a
closing off of the throat is a glottal stop. And I disagree that all words
in any language must end by closing off the throat. In English when we
pronounce a word that ends in a vowel, we don't close off the throat at
the end. The word "go" for example doesn't end by abruptly interrupting
the vibration of the vocal chords by closing off the throat. The vocal
chords just quit vibrating and we cease to expel air. Glottal stop is
defined precisely as a closing off of the throat using the glottis and
consequently an abrupt stopping of vocal chord vibration. The native
speaker with whom I have had experience had a very clear glottal stop at
the end of verbs in the indicative singular. The difficulty I had was in
determining if there was an aspiration at the end of the plural or not. I
like to think there was a faint aspiration just as you have noted in the
speech of Huastecan Nahuatl. So, if this is the case, then we have a
contrastive pair in the third person singular and third person plural
indicative verbs such as quicua [kwa?] and quicuah [kwah] where the
[?]=3Dglottal stop. (The phonetic symbol is actually an upside down questio=
n
mark with no dot, but I can't make that go through on the email.) I
conclude therefore that the glottal stop and the aspiration are two
separate phonemes.
I submit this argument humbly and ask any of the professional linguists to
correct my reasoning if it is flawed.
Galen=20
=20

On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:

> Galen,
> =09First of all, if I'm not mistaken, Carochi distiguishes between the
> pronunciation of the word-internal and the word-final saltillo.  In other
> words, saltillo refers not to a specific sound, but to a distinct linguis=
tic
> element whose sound may vary in different environments (I know there is a
> word for this in linguistics: is it phoneme?  I can't remember.)  The
> important thing is that this linguistic element (with its sound variation=
s)
> was used then and is still used now as the plural marker for the present
> tense.  Its pronunciation may have evolved (although I'm not so sure), bu=
t
> its function in this case is the same.
> =09I don't think what you hear at the end of the singular indicative is a
> glottal stop.  This problem is precisely what called my attention to the
> aspirated nature of the word final saltillo.  One of the native speakers =
I
> work with (who is from Chapulhuacanito, municipio de Tamazunchale, San Lu=
is
> Potos=ED), pronounces what would standardly be considered a word final "i=
", as
> an "e" (Spanish pronunciation reference).  Noting also that he uses a "t"
> dialect, he would say, for example, "ayohte", instead of "ayohtli" for
> calabaza.  The fun comes when a non-native speaker has to distinguish
> between the singular and plural forms of preterite verbs.  Since he uses =
the
> "old" singular marker, "-qui", which he pronounces "-que", we have for
> example: "tinehnenque" =3D you walked, versus, "tinehnenqueh" =3D we walk=
ed.
> When I first heard these two words, they sounded pretty much alike to me.
> So I put my ear as close to my friends mouth as I could, and listened har=
d.
> This is what I discovered.  First, the plural form ends with a barely
> audible aspiration.  This is the saltillo.  The pronunciation of the vowe=
l
> which ends the singular form, terminates with a closing off of the throat=
=2E
> But this is true of all word final vowels.  If they weren't pronounced th=
is
> way (with a definite end/closing of the throat), then air would escape th=
e
> mouth at the end of the pronunciation, and you will have added the saltil=
lo.
> (Which you don't want to do, unless that's really what you want to do,
> right?)
>=20
> =09John Sullivan


From dfrye at umich.edu  Thu Feb 10 17:11:49 2000
From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:11:49 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.101149.0700.>

> in any language must end by closing off the throat. In English when we
> pronounce a word that ends in a vowel, we don't close off the throat at
> the end. The word "go" for example doesn't end by abruptly interrupting
> the vibration of the vocal chords by closing off the throat.

But when Homer Simpson says "Doh!" he does end it with a glottal stop, no?
Just checking -- i'm no linguist, much as I admire ya'll!

David Frye <dfrye at umich.edu>


From smnorris at fas.harvard.edu  Thu Feb 10 17:43:10 2000
From: smnorris at fas.harvard.edu (Susan Norris)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:43:10 -0700
Subject: malinche II
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.104310.0700.>

Just a quick note regarding Fran Kartunnen's "Rethinking Malinche.I
used this article this week in my UG Latin American History class, and it
generated quite a bit of interest from my normally very passive students.
I work at a women's college, and while they really enjoyed Kartunnen's
insightful analysis, I really enjoyed the ensuing debate and discovery.
Thanks, listeros, for bringing it to my attention.

Sincerely,

Susan Norris
Asst. Professor of History and Sociology
Marymount College


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Feb 10 18:07:28 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:07:28 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.110728.0700.>

YES! that is a glottal stop. English speakers don't do it after every
utterance that ends in a vowel, however. Standard German speakers do do it
with every utterance that begins with a vowel. Galen's comments were quite
correct as to the nature of the beast. It is a common phoneme throughout
Indian languages in North America (no kudos, Dr, Greenberg!),

Best,
Michael


On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, David L. Frye wrote:

> > in any language must end by closing off the throat. In English when we
> > pronounce a word that ends in a vowel, we don't close off the throat at
> > the end. The word "go" for example doesn't end by abruptly interrupting
> > the vibration of the vocal chords by closing off the throat.
>
> But when Homer Simpson says "Doh!" he does end it with a glottal stop, no?
> Just checking -- i'm no linguist, much as I admire ya'll!
>
> David Frye <dfrye at umich.edu>
>
>


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Feb 10 19:13:44 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:13:44 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.121344.0700.>

On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu wrote:

> The difficulty I had was in
> determining if there was an aspiration at the end of the plural or not. I
> like to think there was a faint aspiration just as you have noted in the
> speech of Huastecan Nahuatl. So, if this is the case, then we have a
> contrastive pair in the third person singular and third person plural
> indicative verbs such as quicua [kwa?] and quicuah [kwah] where the
> [?]=3Dglottal stop.

Joe is off-line at the present, but as I remember his teaching it,
Hueyapan Nahuatl distinguished between singular and plural in the way
Galen describes above:  [kwa?] or as Joe wrote it [kwa'] 'heshe eats'  and
[kwah] 'they eat'.  It would be interesting to know if other modern
dialects distinguish the two by making such a minimal pair.

Michael


From clayton at indiana.edu  Thu Feb 10 19:57:23 2000
From: clayton at indiana.edu (Mary Clayton)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:57:23 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.125723.0700.>

Galen,
     I think you've given an admirable account of the concept of
phonemes and allophones. I think that the 'disagreement' here may actually
involve an unstated assumption, which doesn't directly involve 'fact', but
(as is usual in linguistics at all levels of analysis -- even phonetics)
*interpretation* of fact.
     I think that the question that one would need to ask is: Is there any
*third* way for words to end [that don't end in other consonants, of
course]? That is, do the h and the glottal stop form a three-way contrast
with a simple final vowel which is followed by NEITHER of these? Because a
(not unreasonable) linguistic assumption might be that one of these is
distinctive (as are other consonants) while the other just marks its
absence, that is, just draws special attention to the fact that the word
in question ends in a vowel rather than glottal stop (or h, depending on
which way you want to argue). Seen this way, the question would be: Can
words end in
      -h,
      -? ( = glottal stop)
      -C ( = any consonant other than glottal stop)
      or -V (= any vowel)?

Or are the choices just
      -h and -V as "allophones"
      -?
      -C

or    -? and -V as "allophones"
      -h
      -C

     Most people take a historical position on this question, calling the
[historical] glottal stop a 'glottal stop' or 'saltillo' regardless of
whether it is pronounced as [h] or [?] in the dialect in question.
Whichever the pronunciation, this segment shows up in the morphologically
expected places, which is one reason to keep the name the same even
thought the pronunciation of presnest-day dialects may differ.
     A way to 'explain' the modern distribution of sounds for those
dialects which have  *real* glottal stops in the singular is that
the *historical* glottal stop has > [h], and the *new* glottal stop just
signals its absence. Taken too literally, this sounds like double-talk, of
course: [?] = nothing and [h] = glottal stop, but it's a natural way of
thinking for people who work with both classical and modern.


     Let me mention two personal observations which are relevant to the
issue, and certainly don't make it any simpler:

     -- One of Joe's young friends (from Oapan) who is heavily
Nahuatl-dominant, when speaking Spanish very frequently ends vowel-final
words with a glottal stop. Spanish "si/" is [si?] and "no" is [no?]. I
don't think he's exceptional. He's just the one I've heard the most (on
tape -- his tapes frequently accompany us on car trips.)

     -- There is a characteristic of general Mexican Spanish which may
play a part in the confusion. I'm talking about Mexican speakers who know
no Nahuatl, many of whom have probably had little or no exposure to it. My
Caribbean-hearing ear (I'm from Tampa and grew up around Cuban-type
Spanish) hears enough trailing-off of voice at the end of vowel-final
words in Mexican Spanish to qualify them for -s final words in Cuban.
That is to say, many pronunciations of singular nouns would be heard as
plurals by people who turn s > h, and third-singular verbs sound like
tu-forms.  But Mexicans don't *mean* or *intend* this 'aspiration', it's
just the way they frequently pronounce vowels in final positions.
     This may well influence the way 'outsiders' who are very familiar
with Mexican Spanish, whether native spekers or not, perceive final vowels
or final -h's in Nahuatl. I'll stop short of speculating what effect it
may have on Nahuatl speakers.


Mary

On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu wrote:

>
> John,
> I have to respectfully disagree. The linguistic terms you refer to are
> phoneme and allophone. The phoneme is the phonetic element which may have
> various allophones depending on the environment. In Spanish, for example,
> the phoneme /n/ is pronounced one way when it is intervocalic and another
> when it is followed by a [g] or [c] and another when followed by [t], etc.
> The way you determine whether or not two sounds are separate phonemes or
> allophones of the same phoneme is to try and find two different words that
> are exactly the same except for the two sounds in question. If two such
> words exist, then the sounds are separate phonemes. I don't have enough
> experience to be able to make judgments about all modern dialects of
> Nahuatl, but my impression is that the aspiration and the glottal stop are
> two separate phonemes. I would support this by providing a contrastive
> pair of words consisting of the singular and plural of the indicative.
> Now, John, I know that you disagree that the singular ending of the
> indicative is a glottal stop. It is tough to argue these kind of things
> over email without the benefit of speech, and you have more access to
> native informants than I do, but I still think that what you describe as a
> closing off of the throat is a glottal stop. And I disagree that all words
> in any language must end by closing off the throat. In English when we
> pronounce a word that ends in a vowel, we don't close off the throat at
> the end. The word "go" for example doesn't end by abruptly interrupting
> the vibration of the vocal chords by closing off the throat. The vocal
> chords just quit vibrating and we cease to expel air. Glottal stop is
> defined precisely as a closing off of the throat using the glottis and
> consequently an abrupt stopping of vocal chord vibration. The native
> speaker with whom I have had experience had a very clear glottal stop at
> the end of verbs in the indicative singular. The difficulty I had was in
> determining if there was an aspiration at the end of the plural or not. I
> like to think there was a faint aspiration just as you have noted in the
> speech of Huastecan Nahuatl. So, if this is the case, then we have a
> contrastive pair in the third person singular and third person plural
> indicative verbs such as quicua [kwa?] and quicuah [kwah] where the
> [?]=3Dglottal stop. (The phonetic symbol is actually an upside down questio=
> n
> mark with no dot, but I can't make that go through on the email.) I
> conclude therefore that the glottal stop and the aspiration are two
> separate phonemes.
> I submit this argument humbly and ask any of the professional linguists to
> correct my reasoning if it is flawed.
> Galen=20


From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Thu Feb 10 20:41:03 2000
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:41:03 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.134103.0700.>

Michael pointed out to me that the phonetic symbol for a glottal stop is an
upside-right question mark without the dot. Sorry for the mistake. I'm really
rusty with those symbols.
David, thank you for the English glottal stop example. It is a good one. Also, I

think that Bart aspirates a little before the stop.
Galen


From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Thu Feb 10 22:23:29 2000
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:23:29 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.152329.0700.>

Mary,
Thank you for your comments. As I was writing my response to John's message, I
realized that if all vowel final words ended in a glottal stop and that was the
only place it appeared, then this might present a problem in my analysis. But I
didn't take the next step and articulate for myself the reasons. If I understand
you then, in a dialect in which words can only end in -?, -h, and -C, the glottal
stop /?/ really has no phonemic value because it is kind of a default for vowel
final words. It would have phonetic value, but only as part of an allophone of
whatever vowel the word ended with.
I also see the utility in maintaining the vocabulary saltillo/glottal stop to
refer to the /h/ eventhough it was originally a /?/, but it just seems so
misleading if you don't include a qualification explaining the difference between
Classical and modern dialects.
I guess part/most of my disagreement with John had to do with this issue of the
semantics of "saltillo". If most people use the term to refer to the modern /h/, I
guess maybe I can conform.
John, Mary has started to sway me to the dark side. :-)
Galen


Mary Clayton wrote:

> Galen,
>      I think you've given an admirable account of the concept of
> phonemes and allophones. I think that the 'disagreement' here may actually
> involve an unstated assumption, which doesn't directly involve 'fact', but
> (as is usual in linguistics at all levels of analysis -- even phonetics)
> *interpretation* of fact.
>      I think that the question that one would need to ask is: Is there any
> *third* way for words to end [that don't end in other consonants, of
> course]? That is, do the h and the glottal stop form a three-way contrast
> with a simple final vowel which is followed by NEITHER of these? Because a
> (not unreasonable) linguistic assumption might be that one of these is
> distinctive (as are other consonants) while the other just marks its
> absence, that is, just draws special attention to the fact that the word
> in question ends in a vowel rather than glottal stop (or h, depending on
> which way you want to argue). Seen this way, the question would be: Can
> words end in
>       -h,
>       -? ( = glottal stop)
>       -C ( = any consonant other than glottal stop)
>       or -V (= any vowel)?
>
> Or are the choices just
>       -h and -V as "allophones"
>       -?
>       -C
>
> or    -? and -V as "allophones"
>       -h
>       -C
>
>      Most people take a historical position on this question, calling the
> [historical] glottal stop a 'glottal stop' or 'saltillo' regardless of
> whether it is pronounced as [h] or [?] in the dialect in question.
> Whichever the pronunciation, this segment shows up in the morphologically
> expected places, which is one reason to keep the name the same even
> thought the pronunciation of presnest-day dialects may differ.
>      A way to 'explain' the modern distribution of sounds for those
> dialects which have  *real* glottal stops in the singular is that
> the *historical* glottal stop has > [h], and the *new* glottal stop just
> signals its absence. Taken too literally, this sounds like double-talk, of
> course: [?] = nothing and [h] = glottal stop, but it's a natural way of
> thinking for people who work with both classical and modern.
>
>      Let me mention two personal observations which are relevant to the
> issue, and certainly don't make it any simpler:
>
>      -- One of Joe's young friends (from Oapan) who is heavily
> Nahuatl-dominant, when speaking Spanish very frequently ends vowel-final
> words with a glottal stop. Spanish "si/" is [si?] and "no" is [no?]. I
> don't think he's exceptional. He's just the one I've heard the most (on
> tape -- his tapes frequently accompany us on car trips.)
>
>      -- There is a characteristic of general Mexican Spanish which may
> play a part in the confusion. I'm talking about Mexican speakers who know
> no Nahuatl, many of whom have probably had little or no exposure to it. My
> Caribbean-hearing ear (I'm from Tampa and grew up around Cuban-type
> Spanish) hears enough trailing-off of voice at the end of vowel-final
> words in Mexican Spanish to qualify them for -s final words in Cuban.
> That is to say, many pronunciations of singular nouns would be heard as
> plurals by people who turn s > h, and third-singular verbs sound like
> tu-forms.  But Mexicans don't *mean* or *intend* this 'aspiration', it's
> just the way they frequently pronounce vowels in final positions.
>      This may well influence the way 'outsiders' who are very familiar
> with Mexican Spanish, whether native spekers or not, perceive final vowels
> or final -h's in Nahuatl. I'll stop short of speculating what effect it
> may have on Nahuatl speakers.
>
> Mary
>


From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Thu Feb 10 22:34:04 2000
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:34:04 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.153404.0700.>

Galen,
I'm sorry for the lack of precision with my terminology, but I'm not a
linguist and the last course I took in linguistics was about 20 years ago.
However, my lay description of the phoneme/allophone distinction was
correct, although we disagree on its applicability in this case.  Moving
along, when I wrote, "The pronunciation of the vowel which ends the singular
form, terminates with a closing off of the throat.  But this is true of all
word final vowels," what I should have said was, "this is true of all word
final vowels in Nahuatl."  I never meant to refer to "all languages.  With
this said, I agree with Mary's suggestion that the closing off of the throat
after word final vowels in Nahuatl MIGHT only mark the absence of the
saltillo. Don't you think it's a bit suspect that the only criterion for
distinction between the two phonemes you postulate (glottal stop and
aspiration) is in the case of singular vs. plural?  O are you aware of any
word-internal distinctive pairs which contrast the glottal stop and the
aspiration?
	John Sullivan
	Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas

-----Mensaje original-----
De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]En
nombre de Mary Clayton
Enviado el: Jueves, 10 de Febrero de 2000 01:57 p.m.
Para: Multiple recipients of list
Asunto: RE: tlahtoa / saltillo

Galen,
     I think you've given an admirable account of the concept of
phonemes and allophones. I think that the 'disagreement' here may actually
involve an unstated assumption, which doesn't directly involve 'fact', but
(as is usual in linguistics at all levels of analysis -- even phonetics)
*interpretation* of fact.
     I think that the question that one would need to ask is: Is there any
*third* way for words to end [that don't end in other consonants, of
course]? That is, do the h and the glottal stop form a three-way contrast
with a simple final vowel which is followed by NEITHER of these? Because a
(not unreasonable) linguistic assumption might be that one of these is
distinctive (as are other consonants) while the other just marks its
absence, that is, just draws special attention to the fact that the word
in question ends in a vowel rather than glottal stop (or h, depending on
which way you want to argue). Seen this way, the question would be: Can
words end in
      -h,
      -? ( = glottal stop)
      -C ( = any consonant other than glottal stop)
      or -V (= any vowel)?

Or are the choices just
      -h and -V as "allophones"
      -?
      -C

or    -? and -V as "allophones"
      -h
      -C

     Most people take a historical position on this question, calling the
[historical] glottal stop a 'glottal stop' or 'saltillo' regardless of
whether it is pronounced as [h] or [?] in the dialect in question.
Whichever the pronunciation, this segment shows up in the morphologically
expected places, which is one reason to keep the name the same even
thought the pronunciation of presnest-day dialects may differ.
     A way to 'explain' the modern distribution of sounds for those
dialects which have  *real* glottal stops in the singular is that
the *historical* glottal stop has > [h], and the *new* glottal stop just
signals its absence. Taken too literally, this sounds like double-talk, of
course: [?] = nothing and [h] = glottal stop, but it's a natural way of
thinking for people who work with both classical and modern.


     Let me mention two personal observations which are relevant to the
issue, and certainly don't make it any simpler:

     -- One of Joe's young friends (from Oapan) who is heavily
Nahuatl-dominant, when speaking Spanish very frequently ends vowel-final
words with a glottal stop. Spanish "si/" is [si?] and "no" is [no?]. I
don't think he's exceptional. He's just the one I've heard the most (on
tape -- his tapes frequently accompany us on car trips.)

     -- There is a characteristic of general Mexican Spanish which may
play a part in the confusion. I'm talking about Mexican speakers who know
no Nahuatl, many of whom have probably had little or no exposure to it. My
Caribbean-hearing ear (I'm from Tampa and grew up around Cuban-type
Spanish) hears enough trailing-off of voice at the end of vowel-final
words in Mexican Spanish to qualify them for -s final words in Cuban.
That is to say, many pronunciations of singular nouns would be heard as
plurals by people who turn s > h, and third-singular verbs sound like
tu-forms.  But Mexicans don't *mean* or *intend* this 'aspiration', it's
just the way they frequently pronounce vowels in final positions.
     This may well influence the way 'outsiders' who are very familiar
with Mexican Spanish, whether native spekers or not, perceive final vowels
or final -h's in Nahuatl. I'll stop short of speculating what effect it
may have on Nahuatl speakers.


Mary

On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu wrote:

>
> John,
> I have to respectfully disagree. The linguistic terms you refer to are
> phoneme and allophone. The phoneme is the phonetic element which may have
> various allophones depending on the environment. In Spanish, for example,
> the phoneme /n/ is pronounced one way when it is intervocalic and another
> when it is followed by a [g] or [c] and another when followed by [t], etc.
> The way you determine whether or not two sounds are separate phonemes or
> allophones of the same phoneme is to try and find two different words that
> are exactly the same except for the two sounds in question. If two such
> words exist, then the sounds are separate phonemes. I don't have enough
> experience to be able to make judgments about all modern dialects of
> Nahuatl, but my impression is that the aspiration and the glottal stop are
> two separate phonemes. I would support this by providing a contrastive
> pair of words consisting of the singular and plural of the indicative.
> Now, John, I know that you disagree that the singular ending of the
> indicative is a glottal stop. It is tough to argue these kind of things
> over email without the benefit of speech, and you have more access to
> native informants than I do, but I still think that what you describe as a
> closing off of the throat is a glottal stop. And I disagree that all words
> in any language must end by closing off the throat. In English when we
> pronounce a word that ends in a vowel, we don't close off the throat at
> the end. The word "go" for example doesn't end by abruptly interrupting
> the vibration of the vocal chords by closing off the throat. The vocal
> chords just quit vibrating and we cease to expel air. Glottal stop is
> defined precisely as a closing off of the throat using the glottis and
> consequently an abrupt stopping of vocal chord vibration. The native
> speaker with whom I have had experience had a very clear glottal stop at
> the end of verbs in the indicative singular. The difficulty I had was in
> determining if there was an aspiration at the end of the plural or not. I
> like to think there was a faint aspiration just as you have noted in the
> speech of Huastecan Nahuatl. So, if this is the case, then we have a
> contrastive pair in the third person singular and third person plural
> indicative verbs such as quicua [kwa?] and quicuah [kwah] where the
> [?]=3Dglottal stop. (The phonetic symbol is actually an upside down
questio=
> n
> mark with no dot, but I can't make that go through on the email.) I
> conclude therefore that the glottal stop and the aspiration are two
> separate phonemes.
> I submit this argument humbly and ask any of the professional linguists to
> correct my reasoning if it is flawed.
> Galen=20


From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Fri Feb 11 01:27:44 2000
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:27:44 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.182744.0700.>

John,
You are right. I think my last email crossed with yours in cyberspace. In the
dialects we are discussing, the glottal stop is not a phoneme. But the closing
off of the throat is a nonphonemic glottal stop which occurs at the end of vowel
final words. I think that was the original issue that Fran's post raised in my
mind. So, if I may sum up here just to see if we are all on the same page. And
please Fran, Mary, John, et al please correct me if I'm wrong:
1. The saltillo was a glottal stop in Classical (I know that from what John has
said he may disagree with this)
2. In many (most?) modern dialects the glottal stop evolved into an aspiration
/h/
3. In these dialects the glottal stop is no longer a phoneme but exists as a
phonetic characteristic of world final vowels.
4. In these modern dialects, the indicative singular verbs end with this
nonphonemic glottal stop
5. In Classical, the indicative plural verbs ended with a glottal stop, which
was referred to as a saltillo (see #1)
6. In these modern dialects, the Classical saltillo of the indicative plural
verbs has evolved into an aspiration /h/ (see #2 and #5).
7. Most linguists continue to refer to the modern /h/ as a saltillo/glottal stop
for historical reasons even though phonetically it is not.

I do have one question for those who may know. Are there differences of opinion
among linguists about what the saltillo was phonetically in Classical Nahuatl?
Also, I should say that although this discussion may seem pedantic to many, it
has been very informative for me and I appreciate the dialogue with John,
Michael, and Mary.
Galen



John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:

> Galen,
> I'm sorry for the lack of precision with my terminology, but I'm not a
> linguist and the last course I took in linguistics was about 20 years ago.
> However, my lay description of the phoneme/allophone distinction was
> correct, although we disagree on its applicability in this case.  Moving
> along, when I wrote, "The pronunciation of the vowel which ends the singular
> form, terminates with a closing off of the throat.  But this is true of all
> word final vowels," what I should have said was, "this is true of all word
> final vowels in Nahuatl."  I never meant to refer to "all languages.  With
> this said, I agree with Mary's suggestion that the closing off of the throat
> after word final vowels in Nahuatl MIGHT only mark the absence of the
> saltillo. Don't you think it's a bit suspect that the only criterion for
> distinction between the two phonemes you postulate (glottal stop and
> aspiration) is in the case of singular vs. plural?  O are you aware of any
> word-internal distinctive pairs which contrast the glottal stop and the
> aspiration?
>         John Sullivan
>         Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]En
> nombre de Mary Clayton
> Enviado el: Jueves, 10 de Febrero de 2000 01:57 p.m.
> Para: Multiple recipients of list
> Asunto: RE: tlahtoa / saltillo
>
> Galen,
>      I think you've given an admirable account of the concept of
> phonemes and allophones. I think that the 'disagreement' here may actually
> involve an unstated assumption, which doesn't directly involve 'fact', but
> (as is usual in linguistics at all levels of analysis -- even phonetics)
> *interpretation* of fact.
>      I think that the question that one would need to ask is: Is there any
> *third* way for words to end [that don't end in other consonants, of
> course]? That is, do the h and the glottal stop form a three-way contrast
> with a simple final vowel which is followed by NEITHER of these? Because a
> (not unreasonable) linguistic assumption might be that one of these is
> distinctive (as are other consonants) while the other just marks its
> absence, that is, just draws special attention to the fact that the word
> in question ends in a vowel rather than glottal stop (or h, depending on
> which way you want to argue). Seen this way, the question would be: Can
> words end in
>       -h,
>       -? ( = glottal stop)
>       -C ( = any consonant other than glottal stop)
>       or -V (= any vowel)?
>
> Or are the choices just
>       -h and -V as "allophones"
>       -?
>       -C
>
> or    -? and -V as "allophones"
>       -h
>       -C
>
>      Most people take a historical position on this question, calling the
> [historical] glottal stop a 'glottal stop' or 'saltillo' regardless of
> whether it is pronounced as [h] or [?] in the dialect in question.
> Whichever the pronunciation, this segment shows up in the morphologically
> expected places, which is one reason to keep the name the same even
> thought the pronunciation of presnest-day dialects may differ.
>      A way to 'explain' the modern distribution of sounds for those
> dialects which have  *real* glottal stops in the singular is that
> the *historical* glottal stop has > [h], and the *new* glottal stop just
> signals its absence. Taken too literally, this sounds like double-talk, of
> course: [?] = nothing and [h] = glottal stop, but it's a natural way of
> thinking for people who work with both classical and modern.
>
>      Let me mention two personal observations which are relevant to the
> issue, and certainly don't make it any simpler:
>
>      -- One of Joe's young friends (from Oapan) who is heavily
> Nahuatl-dominant, when speaking Spanish very frequently ends vowel-final
> words with a glottal stop. Spanish "si/" is [si?] and "no" is [no?]. I
> don't think he's exceptional. He's just the one I've heard the most (on
> tape -- his tapes frequently accompany us on car trips.)
>
>      -- There is a characteristic of general Mexican Spanish which may
> play a part in the confusion. I'm talking about Mexican speakers who know
> no Nahuatl, many of whom have probably had little or no exposure to it. My
> Caribbean-hearing ear (I'm from Tampa and grew up around Cuban-type
> Spanish) hears enough trailing-off of voice at the end of vowel-final
> words in Mexican Spanish to qualify them for -s final words in Cuban.
> That is to say, many pronunciations of singular nouns would be heard as
> plurals by people who turn s > h, and third-singular verbs sound like
> tu-forms.  But Mexicans don't *mean* or *intend* this 'aspiration', it's
> just the way they frequently pronounce vowels in final positions.
>      This may well influence the way 'outsiders' who are very familiar
> with Mexican Spanish, whether native spekers or not, perceive final vowels
> or final -h's in Nahuatl. I'll stop short of speculating what effect it
> may have on Nahuatl speakers.
>
> Mary
>
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu wrote:
>
> >
> > John,
> > I have to respectfully disagree. The linguistic terms you refer to are
> > phoneme and allophone. The phoneme is the phonetic element which may have
> > various allophones depending on the environment. In Spanish, for example,
> > the phoneme /n/ is pronounced one way when it is intervocalic and another
> > when it is followed by a [g] or [c] and another when followed by [t], etc.
> > The way you determine whether or not two sounds are separate phonemes or
> > allophones of the same phoneme is to try and find two different words that
> > are exactly the same except for the two sounds in question. If two such
> > words exist, then the sounds are separate phonemes. I don't have enough
> > experience to be able to make judgments about all modern dialects of
> > Nahuatl, but my impression is that the aspiration and the glottal stop are
> > two separate phonemes. I would support this by providing a contrastive
> > pair of words consisting of the singular and plural of the indicative.
> > Now, John, I know that you disagree that the singular ending of the
> > indicative is a glottal stop. It is tough to argue these kind of things
> > over email without the benefit of speech, and you have more access to
> > native informants than I do, but I still think that what you describe as a
> > closing off of the throat is a glottal stop. And I disagree that all words
> > in any language must end by closing off the throat. In English when we
> > pronounce a word that ends in a vowel, we don't close off the throat at
> > the end. The word "go" for example doesn't end by abruptly interrupting
> > the vibration of the vocal chords by closing off the throat. The vocal
> > chords just quit vibrating and we cease to expel air. Glottal stop is
> > defined precisely as a closing off of the throat using the glottis and
> > consequently an abrupt stopping of vocal chord vibration. The native
> > speaker with whom I have had experience had a very clear glottal stop at
> > the end of verbs in the indicative singular. The difficulty I had was in
> > determining if there was an aspiration at the end of the plural or not. I
> > like to think there was a faint aspiration just as you have noted in the
> > speech of Huastecan Nahuatl. So, if this is the case, then we have a
> > contrastive pair in the third person singular and third person plural
> > indicative verbs such as quicua [kwa?] and quicuah [kwah] where the
> > [?]=3Dglottal stop. (The phonetic symbol is actually an upside down
> questio=
> > n
> > mark with no dot, but I can't make that go through on the email.) I
> > conclude therefore that the glottal stop and the aspiration are two
> > separate phonemes.
> > I submit this argument humbly and ask any of the professional linguists to
> > correct my reasoning if it is flawed.
> > Galen=20


From fjgs at servidor.unam.mx  Wed Feb  9 17:16:37 2000
From: fjgs at servidor.unam.mx (Ehecatecolotl)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:16:37 -0600
Subject: Fw: ma:ce:hualli
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2000.111637.0600.FJGS@SERVIDOR.UNAM.MX>

Mochin ticamanalohtica nican tlalticpan ipampa zan yuh timochin tiazqueh
mictlampa. Melahuac?

>Chapulhuacanito, San Luis Potos?, macehualmeh quitoah "Nah nicamanaloa ca
>nahuatl", uan Chicontepec, Veracruz, quitoah "Nah nizaniloa ca nahuatl".
> John Sullivan
> Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
>
>-----Mensaje original-----
>De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
[mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]En
>nombre de Ehecatecolotl
>Enviado el: Martes, 08 de Febrero de 2000 10:21 p.m.
>Para: Multiple recipients of list
>Asunto: Re: ma:ce:hualli
>
>Xinechmopohpolhuili, yeceh ya oniccac nican ompa Tenochtitlan nictlahtoa in
>macehuallahtolli.
>
>Tlazohcamati
>Ehecatecolotl.
>
>
>>Se dice: nitlahtoah macehualcopa, 'hablo mexicano'
>
>


From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Fri Feb 11 04:49:50 2000
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:49:50 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2000.214950.0700.>

Galen,
	Just two observations.  In the Huastecan dialects I work with, I would say
the saltillo is pretty close to a glottal stop when it is found between a
vowel and a consonant.  So in this environment, the glottal stop would be
phonemic.  Also, like I remarked before, Carochi distinguishes between the
pronunciation of word internal and word final saltillos, so perhaps, just as
in modern Nahuatl, the Classical saltillo had several allophones.
	John Sullivan
	Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas

-----Mensaje original-----
De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]En
nombre de Galen Brokaw
Enviado el: Jueves, 10 de Febrero de 2000 07:28 p.m.
Para: Multiple recipients of list
Asunto: Re: tlahtoa / saltillo

John,
You are right. I think my last email crossed with yours in cyberspace. In
the
dialects we are discussing, the glottal stop is not a phoneme. But the
closing
off of the throat is a nonphonemic glottal stop which occurs at the end of
vowel
final words. I think that was the original issue that Fran's post raised in
my
mind. So, if I may sum up here just to see if we are all on the same page.
And
please Fran, Mary, John, et al please correct me if I'm wrong:
1. The saltillo was a glottal stop in Classical (I know that from what John
has
said he may disagree with this)
2. In many (most?) modern dialects the glottal stop evolved into an
aspiration
/h/
3. In these dialects the glottal stop is no longer a phoneme but exists as a
phonetic characteristic of world final vowels.
4. In these modern dialects, the indicative singular verbs end with this
nonphonemic glottal stop
5. In Classical, the indicative plural verbs ended with a glottal stop,
which
was referred to as a saltillo (see #1)
6. In these modern dialects, the Classical saltillo of the indicative plural
verbs has evolved into an aspiration /h/ (see #2 and #5).
7. Most linguists continue to refer to the modern /h/ as a saltillo/glottal
stop
for historical reasons even though phonetically it is not.

I do have one question for those who may know. Are there differences of
opinion
among linguists about what the saltillo was phonetically in Classical
Nahuatl?
Also, I should say that although this discussion may seem pedantic to many,
it
has been very informative for me and I appreciate the dialogue with John,
Michael, and Mary.
Galen



John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:

> Galen,
> I'm sorry for the lack of precision with my terminology, but I'm not a
> linguist and the last course I took in linguistics was about 20 years ago.
> However, my lay description of the phoneme/allophone distinction was
> correct, although we disagree on its applicability in this case.  Moving
> along, when I wrote, "The pronunciation of the vowel which ends the
singular
> form, terminates with a closing off of the throat.  But this is true of
all
> word final vowels," what I should have said was, "this is true of all word
> final vowels in Nahuatl."  I never meant to refer to "all languages.  With
> this said, I agree with Mary's suggestion that the closing off of the
throat
> after word final vowels in Nahuatl MIGHT only mark the absence of the
> saltillo. Don't you think it's a bit suspect that the only criterion for
> distinction between the two phonemes you postulate (glottal stop and
> aspiration) is in the case of singular vs. plural?  O are you aware of any
> word-internal distinctive pairs which contrast the glottal stop and the
> aspiration?
>         John Sullivan
>         Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
[mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]En
> nombre de Mary Clayton
> Enviado el: Jueves, 10 de Febrero de 2000 01:57 p.m.
> Para: Multiple recipients of list
> Asunto: RE: tlahtoa / saltillo
>
> Galen,
>      I think you've given an admirable account of the concept of
> phonemes and allophones. I think that the 'disagreement' here may actually
> involve an unstated assumption, which doesn't directly involve 'fact', but
> (as is usual in linguistics at all levels of analysis -- even phonetics)
> *interpretation* of fact.
>      I think that the question that one would need to ask is: Is there any
> *third* way for words to end [that don't end in other consonants, of
> course]? That is, do the h and the glottal stop form a three-way contrast
> with a simple final vowel which is followed by NEITHER of these? Because a
> (not unreasonable) linguistic assumption might be that one of these is
> distinctive (as are other consonants) while the other just marks its
> absence, that is, just draws special attention to the fact that the word
> in question ends in a vowel rather than glottal stop (or h, depending on
> which way you want to argue). Seen this way, the question would be: Can
> words end in
>       -h,
>       -? ( = glottal stop)
>       -C ( = any consonant other than glottal stop)
>       or -V (= any vowel)?
>
> Or are the choices just
>       -h and -V as "allophones"
>       -?
>       -C
>
> or    -? and -V as "allophones"
>       -h
>       -C
>
>      Most people take a historical position on this question, calling the
> [historical] glottal stop a 'glottal stop' or 'saltillo' regardless of
> whether it is pronounced as [h] or [?] in the dialect in question.
> Whichever the pronunciation, this segment shows up in the morphologically
> expected places, which is one reason to keep the name the same even
> thought the pronunciation of presnest-day dialects may differ.
>      A way to 'explain' the modern distribution of sounds for those
> dialects which have  *real* glottal stops in the singular is that
> the *historical* glottal stop has > [h], and the *new* glottal stop just
> signals its absence. Taken too literally, this sounds like double-talk, of
> course: [?] = nothing and [h] = glottal stop, but it's a natural way of
> thinking for people who work with both classical and modern.
>
>      Let me mention two personal observations which are relevant to the
> issue, and certainly don't make it any simpler:
>
>      -- One of Joe's young friends (from Oapan) who is heavily
> Nahuatl-dominant, when speaking Spanish very frequently ends vowel-final
> words with a glottal stop. Spanish "si/" is [si?] and "no" is [no?]. I
> don't think he's exceptional. He's just the one I've heard the most (on
> tape -- his tapes frequently accompany us on car trips.)
>
>      -- There is a characteristic of general Mexican Spanish which may
> play a part in the confusion. I'm talking about Mexican speakers who know
> no Nahuatl, many of whom have probably had little or no exposure to it. My
> Caribbean-hearing ear (I'm from Tampa and grew up around Cuban-type
> Spanish) hears enough trailing-off of voice at the end of vowel-final
> words in Mexican Spanish to qualify them for -s final words in Cuban.
> That is to say, many pronunciations of singular nouns would be heard as
> plurals by people who turn s > h, and third-singular verbs sound like
> tu-forms.  But Mexicans don't *mean* or *intend* this 'aspiration', it's
> just the way they frequently pronounce vowels in final positions.
>      This may well influence the way 'outsiders' who are very familiar
> with Mexican Spanish, whether native spekers or not, perceive final vowels
> or final -h's in Nahuatl. I'll stop short of speculating what effect it
> may have on Nahuatl speakers.
>
> Mary
>
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu wrote:
>
> >
> > John,
> > I have to respectfully disagree. The linguistic terms you refer to are
> > phoneme and allophone. The phoneme is the phonetic element which may
have
> > various allophones depending on the environment. In Spanish, for
example,
> > the phoneme /n/ is pronounced one way when it is intervocalic and
another
> > when it is followed by a [g] or [c] and another when followed by [t],
etc.
> > The way you determine whether or not two sounds are separate phonemes or
> > allophones of the same phoneme is to try and find two different words
that
> > are exactly the same except for the two sounds in question. If two such
> > words exist, then the sounds are separate phonemes. I don't have enough
> > experience to be able to make judgments about all modern dialects of
> > Nahuatl, but my impression is that the aspiration and the glottal stop
are
> > two separate phonemes. I would support this by providing a contrastive
> > pair of words consisting of the singular and plural of the indicative.
> > Now, John, I know that you disagree that the singular ending of the
> > indicative is a glottal stop. It is tough to argue these kind of things
> > over email without the benefit of speech, and you have more access to
> > native informants than I do, but I still think that what you describe as
a
> > closing off of the throat is a glottal stop. And I disagree that all
words
> > in any language must end by closing off the throat. In English when we
> > pronounce a word that ends in a vowel, we don't close off the throat at
> > the end. The word "go" for example doesn't end by abruptly interrupting
> > the vibration of the vocal chords by closing off the throat. The vocal
> > chords just quit vibrating and we cease to expel air. Glottal stop is
> > defined precisely as a closing off of the throat using the glottis and
> > consequently an abrupt stopping of vocal chord vibration. The native
> > speaker with whom I have had experience had a very clear glottal stop at
> > the end of verbs in the indicative singular. The difficulty I had was in
> > determining if there was an aspiration at the end of the plural or not.
I
> > like to think there was a faint aspiration just as you have noted in the
> > speech of Huastecan Nahuatl. So, if this is the case, then we have a
> > contrastive pair in the third person singular and third person plural
> > indicative verbs such as quicua [kwa?] and quicuah [kwah] where the
> > [?]=3Dglottal stop. (The phonetic symbol is actually an upside down
> questio=
> > n
> > mark with no dot, but I can't make that go through on the email.) I
> > conclude therefore that the glottal stop and the aspiration are two
> > separate phonemes.
> > I submit this argument humbly and ask any of the professional linguists
to
> > correct my reasoning if it is flawed.
> > Galen=20


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Feb 11 11:53:39 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 04:53:39 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.045339.0700.>

Glottal stop trivia:

In Shawnee the glottal stop /?/ and /h/ are one phoneme. /?/ occurs before
obstruents and /h/ occurs elsewhere. They historically come from the same
sound, and Alford (early 1800's)  wrote them the same in his gospels. In
Gatschet's time (late 1800's) they were still both [h].


Michael


From lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr  Fri Feb 11 16:07:18 2000
From: lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr (Patrick LESBRE)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:07:18 -0700
Subject: INDIANS, INDIOS, INDIGENOUS, AND INDIGESTION FOR IGNOBLE
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.090718.0700.>

Piedad por los listeros que se interesan por el nahuatl!!!
No tenemos tiempo para leer sus intercambios de ideas de tan alto nivel y es
preferible que los hagan entre si, no en publico.
Gracias.

At 19:11 07/02/00 -0700, vous avez =E9crit:
>aprende a escribir guey!!
>
>Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote:
>>=20
>> Hey Mario, an empty can makes the loudes noise, and you truely are an=
 empty
>> can!
>
>

___________________

Patrick LESBRE
Universit=E9 de Toulouse le Mirail
32 rue la Fonderie
31000 TOULOUSE
t=E9l./fax  33(0)5 61 14 26 99
email lesbre at univ-tlse2.fr


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Fri Feb 11 16:41:27 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:41:27 -0700
Subject: Digest
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.094127.0700.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

In the recent switch from the listproc software to the majordomo software
one of the features which was lost was the digest.  There were five
subscribers who received all the daily postings from nahuat-l in a single
message, i.e. a digest.  Under majordomo this can be done but it exists as
a separate list and would have to be managed separately.  Consequently I
made the decision not to create a digest list, since there were only 5
digest subscribers.

At least one subscriber has written requesting that a digest version be
created.  This will depend on the level of interest.  If you are interested
in the digest form, please let me know OFF LINE.  That is, DO NOT hit the
reply.  Send me a message at:
schwallr at selway.umt.edu

Thanks to you all.

J. F. Schwaller
List owner
John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Fri Feb 11 18:36:55 2000
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:36:55 -0700
Subject: Preclassic, Classic and Postclassic
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.113655.0700.>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Somehow the two very important messages I had received on this subject (from
Fran Karttunen and "micc") got  inadvertently deleted.

Fran and micc, could I receive another copy, PLEASE??

Sorry for that.

Susana Moraleda


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BEGIN:VCARD
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EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
REV:20000211T183236Z
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From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Fri Feb 11 19:51:09 2000
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:51:09 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.125109.0700.>

At the risk of extending this discussion beyond y'all's patience, I just
wanted to make a comment.
I tend to forget sometimes that Classical Nahuatl as we know it through
grammars and dictionaries probably gives us a false sense of linguistic
homogeneity at the time of the conquest. It seems more likely that there were
many dialects at the time of the conquest just like there are today and that
any given grammar recorded only one of those dialects. So, there may have been
dialects in the sixteenth-century that did not have the glottal stop as a
phoneme and others that used it in different ways. So, I guess it is difficult
to talk about a phonetic evolution from Classical with regard to all dialects
because we don't know what the characteristics of all dialects were in the
sixteenth century.
Galen


From drothering at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 11 20:32:01 2000
From: drothering at hotmail.com (Darryl Röthering)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:32:01 -0700
Subject: phoneme vrs. allophone
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.133201.0700.>

I'm a newcomer to this list, and maybe I am out of my depth, so apologies in
advance.

Could one of you linguists give an english (or Spanish) example of an
allophone? I'm having trouble concetizing this notion. I think the example
of a phoneme is simple, correct me if I'm wrong:
cat cad :> one sound difference, and a verifiable meaning difference.

Is an allophone something like the difference between Brittish /tomahto/ and
American /tomayto/? Or am I barking up a bad tree?

Regards,

Darryl
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Feb 11 21:55:58 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:55:58 -0700
Subject: phoneme vrs. allophone
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.145558.0700.>

Phonemes are linguistically contrastive sounds (or sets of a language. And
like you pointed out, Darryl, such a contrast is typically indicated by
the existence of a minimal pair or what is often called these days
a contrast in an identical environment. As you note, minimal pairs are
pairs of words which differ only by a particular sound at a particular
(shared) location in the two word (eg. [mat] and [sat]). If two segments
cause such a difference in meaning in an identical environment then they
must belong to different phonemes, in this case /m/ and /s/.

As for allophones, these are variants of each phoneme that are usually
conditioned by the phonetic environment. For example /k/ is an English
phoneme, and [k'] and [k] are allophones of /k/. We find the first in
[k'at] 'cat'  and the second in [ski] 'ski'. The first is aspirated, the
second unaspirated.

So, a phoneme is a set of allophones. The allophones are actual realized
sound units while the phoneme is a set of those sounds that are usually in
what is called "complementary distribution." In other words,they are
"mutually exclusive." No native speaker of English says [kat] or [sk'i].
So, if two sounds are phonetically similarkl but are in complementary
distribution, they are considered allophones of a single phoneme.

tiquitta?

Michael


From bcoon at montana.edu  Fri Feb 11 22:40:10 2000
From: bcoon at montana.edu (Coon, Brad)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:40:10 -0700
Subject: phoneme vrs. allophone
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.154010.0700.>

A simple one that springs to mind is English /t/ which has several
allophones.
In [top], the [t] is aspirated (has a breathy [h] like quality to it)
whereas
in [stop], it doesn't.  I can't represent them correctly with this keyboard
and email program but if we designate them as [t] in [stop] and [t'] in
[top], these two are allophones of /t/.

Brad Coon                             (406) 994-6026
Reference Librarian              bcoon at montana.edu

The Libraries, Montana State University-Bozeman
P.O. Box 173320
Bozeman, MT 59717-3320

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Darryl Rvthering [SMTP:drothering at hotmail.com]
> Sent:	Friday, February 11, 2000 1:32 PM
> To:	Multiple recipients of list
> Subject:	phoneme vrs. allophone
>
> I'm a newcomer to this list, and maybe I am out of my depth, so apologies
> in
> advance.
>
> Could one of you linguists give an english (or Spanish) example of an
> allophone? I'm having trouble concetizing this notion. I think the example
>
> of a phoneme is simple, correct me if I'm wrong:
> cat cad :> one sound difference, and a verifiable meaning difference.
>
> Is an allophone something like the difference between Brittish /tomahto/
> and
> American /tomayto/? Or am I barking up a bad tree?
>
> Regards,
>
> Darryl
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From micc at home.com  Fri Feb 11 23:11:57 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:11:57 -0700
Subject: Preclassic, Classic and Postclassic.... at your service!!!!w
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.161157.0700.>

Marisol,

the reason there is no consensus on what span of time the pre, classic,
and post, actually include is that not all areas fell into the "cultural
attributes" of these epochs.  for instance, although the Maya "classic
period" is said to end by the 800's A.D., some sites ended their
building programs earlier, and some went on into the "post classic"
period. Also, a great problem that many archeologists ignore when they
set the "starting dates" of eras, especially the pre-classic, is their
almost total absence of perishable materials (especially in the "olmeca
regions) that can be used to date the 'beginning" of a cultural
awakening.

  Who's is to say that the pre-classic did not start 2,000 earlier, with
nothing but wood, straw and paper utensils?  except for a few
discoveries, all we can judge by are the stone sculptures, and earthen
mounds that remain. I has always seemed to me that the "mysterious
olmeca" did not suddenly spring forth from the slimy steamy swamps of
tabasco and Veracruz.  They ahd to have had generations of empirical
evidence to create their writing, calendrical mastery, and religious
building blocks that later cultures would adopt and change.

imagine someone coming back from 3,000 years in the future. They could
say that judging but our current lack of using stone for building,
sculpture, and religious objects, the 20th century was a "dark age" in
human civilization....(and indeed it could be stated that it was judging
by WWWI and II, etc....) Not knowing of the perishable cultural
creations we have (paper or plastic?>>>>, virtual reality, imitation
mayonnaise, etc.)

basically the eras can be broken down into three general periods:

Pre-classic period:  "olmeca" Tres Zapotes, Monte Alban, Tlatilco,
Piedras negras, etc.

classic: Kaminaljuyu, Teotihucancan, Tikal, Palenque, Monete Alban,
Copan, Etc.

Post Classic: chichen Itza, Tajin, Cholula, Tollan-Xicocotitlan,
Azcapotzalco, Cacaxtla, Mayapan, Tulum, Tenochtitlan.


As any amateur ( the the full french sense of the word) can see, the
dates for these great and nobel sites overlap in many cases.  Even
though Teotihuacan was "abandoned" at the end of the classic period,
research shows that there were still people living in the city in
"toltec" times.  monte Alban stretches from pre-classic to Spanish
times.

In a crude and simplistic sense I would (and I probably will generate a
lot of "empty can mail" for this, but oh well...)
say that the pre-classic era was an era of local chiefdoms becoming city
states; writing was developed; and the pan-mesoamerican form of religion
was coalesced ( that is not to imply that there was a homogenous
"mesoamerican religion.  instead what I see is a "common denominator" of
imagery, venus worship ( as the Tlaloc-Quetzalcoatl cult) and human
sacrifice (here we go again!!!)

the classic was a period of state control of trade, religion, ritual
warfare, and a high level of mathmatics, egineering, artistic, and
literary development. It was also a time of serious and terminal
ecological destruction.

the post classic period was a time of "chichimec" intrusions into the
Mesoamerican world view. The Tlaloc-quetzalcoatl duality was replaced by
the tlaloc huitzilopochtli cult of the Mexi'ca   (of course this was not
the case everywhere!!) classic period institutions were transformed from
king based states to military-theocracies, The knowledge of the past was
religiously kept alive, memorized, and ritualized into mythology,
separate form its original historical relavence (Remember Tlacaelel
buring the ancient books with the 'truth" he did not want the Mexi'ca
people to know??). The "Toltec" lineage became of paramount authority in
highland maya ruling houses as well as in Chichen Itza (here is another
field of landmines!!), and of course in Anahuac where the Mexi'ca
systematically intermarried into the "cuhua" families of Culhuacan so
they could claim toltec blood.

Finally, it appears that the pochteca class was creating a powerbase
that transcended national boundires, since only they had the experitse
and contacts to bring elite goods form one area to another.


Anyway I will quit now, lest I be accused of pontificating again....:)





marisol wrote:
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
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>
> I have started a research on pre-Aztec history in central Mexico, and found
> that each source I have consulted, gives different years for the division of
> the pre-classic, classic and post-classic periods.
>
> PRECLASSIC from 1500 BC till the start of AD? or till year 100? or till year
> 300?
>
> CLASSIC from X above till 750, 800 or 900 AD?
>
> POSTCLASSIC from X above till 1521?
>
> Some other sources name an "ARCHAIC" period lasting till 1500 BC (?)
>
> Is a consensus on this division?
>
> I would be grateful if someone could enlighten me, and/or indicate which
> reliable texts/web sites to consult.
>
> Susana Moraleda
>
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> BEGIN:VCARD
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> FN:Susana Moraleda
> EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
> REV:20000209T173013Z
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> ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF732B.B4BF7F20--



marisol wrote:
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0115_01BF74C6.E0893BE0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Somehow the two very important messages I had received on this subject (from
> Fran Karttunen and "micc") got  inadvertently deleted.
>
> Fran and micc, could I receive another copy, PLEASE??
>
> Sorry for that.
>
> Susana Moraleda
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0115_01BF74C6.E0893BE0
> Content-Type: text/x-vcard;
>         name="Susana Moraleda.vcf"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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>         filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf"
>
> BEGIN:VCARD
> VERSION:2.1
> N:Moraleda;Susana
> FN:Susana Moraleda
> EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it
> REV:20000211T183236Z
> END:VCARD
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0115_01BF74C6.E0893BE0--


From dfrye at umich.edu  Sat Feb 12 01:17:07 2000
From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:17:07 -0700
Subject: phoneme vrs. allophone
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2000.181707.0700.>

In Spanish, b and v represent a single phoneme (since they are pronounced
exactly alike in all positions) but each has (at least?) two allophones:
e.g. in the words vivir or beber, the first b/v is almost identical to
English b, whereas the second b/v is somewhere between English b and w --
the lips are slightly separated. But there is no Spanish word in which an
"initial b" falls between vowels and therefore contrasts with an
"intervocalic b", hence they are allophones not separate phonemes.


From j.kremers at let.kun.nl  Sat Feb 12 16:16:15 2000
From: j.kremers at let.kun.nl (Joost Kremers)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:16:15 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2000.091615.0700.>

hi all,

a few extra comments about the saltillo-discussion from a linguist
(albeit a syntactician, but one not entirely unknowledgable on matters
phonologic). basically, the account given by Galen Brokaw (see below) is
correct. in phonology, it is usually assumed that a word is stored in
the mental lexicon as a string of phonemes. when a word is pronounced,
these phonemes may undergo some alternation: the so-called allophones. a
good example of this is the spanish /b/, which, depending on context, is
pronounced either as [b] or [=DF] (=DF is the symbol for the so-called
bilabial fricative: sort of a v pronounced with both lips rather than
with the upper teeth and lower lips. note, by the way, that phonemes are
indicated with slashes, whereas square brackets indicate the actual
phonological realization.) in phonological terms: the phoneme /b/ has
two allophones in spanish: [b] and [=DF].

but this is not all of what is going on in the phonology of a language.
there is another set of processes, which do not apply to phonemes, but
to the actual phonological realization. for example, in RP (british
english), there is a rule called preglottalization: before a voiceless
stop (/p, t, k/) a glottal stop (/?/) is inserted. that is, a word such
as 'dent' is pronounced something like [den?t], with a glottal stop
before the /t/. (there is good reason not to see [?t] as an allophone of
/t/, but it would take too far to go into that.)

note that this category of rules may introduce phonological items that
do not exist as phonemes in the language: RP does not have the glottal
stop as a phoneme.

as for nahuatl, the case seems to be the following. (in this, i base
myself on the discussion on this list, as i have no first-hand
information.) there is an underlying phoneme, call it saltillo, that has
at least two allophones: as [h] in word-final position and between
vowels, and as a glottal stop (perhaps accompanied by aspiration) before
a consonant. if i'm not mistaken, (but i get all my information trough
the web, so for what it's worth:) it is even a velar fricative (close to
spanish j) in some dialects. the question what the underlying phoneme
is, cannot be answered easily. (from what i've read on the list so far,
i would argue it is probably /h/, not a glottal stop, but this is not a
critical question.)

apart from this, there is apparently a rule that inserts a glottal stop
after a word-final vowel. this glottal stop is not part of the phonemic
string that underlies a word, it is inserted afterwards. it is
comparable to the rule that inserts a glottal stop before word-initial
vowels in german (and other languages, e.g., dutch). i.e., it is not a
phonemic, but a phonological phenomenon.

so we have:

tlahtoah: underlyingly /Lahtoah/ (i'll just use L to indicate the
lateral plosive, for want of a better way...). allophone assignment
makes the first /h/ a /?/, and the second a /h/. no further rules apply,
so we get [La?toah].

tlahtoa: underlyingly /Lahtoa/. allophone assignment makes the /h/ a
/?/. after that, another rule, say 'post-glottalization', adds a /?/.
so, the word comes out as [La?toa?].

note that native speakers of a language are usually aware of the
presence of phonemes, (although they may not recognize the allophones),
but they are not aware of the inserted elements. for example, a speaker
of spanish recognizes the presence of a phoneme /b/ in 'mover' (he will
say the word consists of the sounds m, o, b (or v), e and r). but a
speaker of (british) english will not be aware that there is a glottal
stop in his pronunciation of 'dent'. that means that if the descriptions
given in this list of actual speech from native speakers is correct,
they should consider plural quicuah as containing one more sound than
singular quicua.


here ends my lecture :-) as i said, the conclusion reached in the
discussion is quite correct. i just added my bit to explain how
phonologists would probably look at the matter.

Joost Kremers

-------------------------------------------
Joost Kremers

University of Nijmegen - The Netherlands
Department of Languages and Cultures of the Middle East
POBox 9103
6501 HD Nijmegen - The Netherlands
phone: +31 24 3608226



Galen Brokaw wrote:
> =

> John,
> You are right. I think my last email crossed with yours in cyberspace. =
In the
> dialects we are discussing, the glottal stop is not a phoneme. But the =
closing
> off of the throat is a nonphonemic glottal stop which occurs at the end=
 of vowel
> final words. I think that was the original issue that Fran's post raise=
d in my
> mind. So, if I may sum up here just to see if we are all on the same pa=
ge. And
> please Fran, Mary, John, et al please correct me if I'm wrong:
> 1. The saltillo was a glottal stop in Classical (I know that from what =
John has
> said he may disagree with this)
> 2. In many (most?) modern dialects the glottal stop evolved into an asp=
iration
> /h/
> 3. In these dialects the glottal stop is no longer a phoneme but exists=
 as a
> phonetic characteristic of world final vowels.
> 4. In these modern dialects, the indicative singular verbs end with thi=
s
> nonphonemic glottal stop
> 5. In Classical, the indicative plural verbs ended with a glottal stop,=
 which
> was referred to as a saltillo (see #1)
> 6. In these modern dialects, the Classical saltillo of the indicative p=
lural
> verbs has evolved into an aspiration /h/ (see #2 and #5).
> 7. Most linguists continue to refer to the modern /h/ as a saltillo/glo=
ttal stop
> for historical reasons even though phonetically it is not.
> =

> I do have one question for those who may know. Are there differences of=
 opinion
> among linguists about what the saltillo was phonetically in Classical N=
ahuatl?
> Also, I should say that although this discussion may seem pedantic to m=
any, it
> has been very informative for me and I appreciate the dialogue with Joh=
n,
> Michael, and Mary.
> Galen
> =

> John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:
> =

> > Galen,
> > I'm sorry for the lack of precision with my terminology, but I'm not =
a
> > linguist and the last course I took in linguistics was about 20 years=
 ago.
> > However, my lay description of the phoneme/allophone distinction was
> > correct, although we disagree on its applicability in this case.  Mov=
ing
> > along, when I wrote, "The pronunciation of the vowel which ends the s=
ingular
> > form, terminates with a closing off of the throat.  But this is true =
of all
> > word final vowels," what I should have said was, "this is true of all=
 word
> > final vowels in Nahuatl."  I never meant to refer to "all languages. =
 With
> > this said, I agree with Mary's suggestion that the closing off of the=
 throat
> > after word final vowels in Nahuatl MIGHT only mark the absence of the=

> > saltillo. Don't you think it's a bit suspect that the only criterion =
for
> > distinction between the two phonemes you postulate (glottal stop and
> > aspiration) is in the case of singular vs. plural?  O are you aware o=
f any
> > word-internal distinctive pairs which contrast the glottal stop and t=
he
> > aspiration?
> >         John Sullivan
> >         Universidad Aut=F3noma de Zacatecas
> >
> > -----Mensaje original-----
> > De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt=
=2Eedu]En
> > nombre de Mary Clayton
> > Enviado el: Jueves, 10 de Febrero de 2000 01:57 p.m.
> > Para: Multiple recipients of list
> > Asunto: RE: tlahtoa / saltillo
> >
> > Galen,
> >      I think you've given an admirable account of the concept of
> > phonemes and allophones. I think that the 'disagreement' here may act=
ually
> > involve an unstated assumption, which doesn't directly involve 'fact'=
, but
> > (as is usual in linguistics at all levels of analysis -- even phoneti=
cs)
> > *interpretation* of fact.
> >      I think that the question that one would need to ask is: Is ther=
e any
> > *third* way for words to end [that don't end in other consonants, of
> > course]? That is, do the h and the glottal stop form a three-way cont=
rast
> > with a simple final vowel which is followed by NEITHER of these? Beca=
use a
> > (not unreasonable) linguistic assumption might be that one of these i=
s
> > distinctive (as are other consonants) while the other just marks its
> > absence, that is, just draws special attention to the fact that the w=
ord
> > in question ends in a vowel rather than glottal stop (or h, depending=
 on
> > which way you want to argue). Seen this way, the question would be: C=
an
> > words end in
> >       -h,
> >       -? ( =3D glottal stop)
> >       -C ( =3D any consonant other than glottal stop)
> >       or -V (=3D any vowel)?
> >
> > Or are the choices just
> >       -h and -V as "allophones"
> >       -?
> >       -C
> >
> > or    -? and -V as "allophones"
> >       -h
> >       -C
> >
> >      Most people take a historical position on this question, calling=
 the
> > [historical] glottal stop a 'glottal stop' or 'saltillo' regardless o=
f
> > whether it is pronounced as [h] or [?] in the dialect in question.
> > Whichever the pronunciation, this segment shows up in the morphologic=
ally
> > expected places, which is one reason to keep the name the same even
> > thought the pronunciation of presnest-day dialects may differ.
> >      A way to 'explain' the modern distribution of sounds for those
> > dialects which have  *real* glottal stops in the singular is that
> > the *historical* glottal stop has > [h], and the *new* glottal stop j=
ust
> > signals its absence. Taken too literally, this sounds like double-tal=
k, of
> > course: [?] =3D nothing and [h] =3D glottal stop, but it's a natural =
way of
> > thinking for people who work with both classical and modern.
> >
> >      Let me mention two personal observations which are relevant to t=
he
> > issue, and certainly don't make it any simpler:
> >
> >      -- One of Joe's young friends (from Oapan) who is heavily
> > Nahuatl-dominant, when speaking Spanish very frequently ends vowel-fi=
nal
> > words with a glottal stop. Spanish "si/" is [si?] and "no" is [no?]. =
I
> > don't think he's exceptional. He's just the one I've heard the most (=
on
> > tape -- his tapes frequently accompany us on car trips.)
> >
> >      -- There is a characteristic of general Mexican Spanish which ma=
y
> > play a part in the confusion. I'm talking about Mexican speakers who =
know
> > no Nahuatl, many of whom have probably had little or no exposure to i=
t. My
> > Caribbean-hearing ear (I'm from Tampa and grew up around Cuban-type
> > Spanish) hears enough trailing-off of voice at the end of vowel-final=

> > words in Mexican Spanish to qualify them for -s final words in Cuban.=

> > That is to say, many pronunciations of singular nouns would be heard =
as
> > plurals by people who turn s > h, and third-singular verbs sound like=

> > tu-forms.  But Mexicans don't *mean* or *intend* this 'aspiration', i=
t's
> > just the way they frequently pronounce vowels in final positions.
> >      This may well influence the way 'outsiders' who are very familia=
r
> > with Mexican Spanish, whether native spekers or not, perceive final v=
owels
> > or final -h's in Nahuatl. I'll stop short of speculating what effect =
it
> > may have on Nahuatl speakers.
> >
> > Mary
> >
> > On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > John,
> > > I have to respectfully disagree. The linguistic terms you refer to =
are
> > > phoneme and allophone. The phoneme is the phonetic element which ma=
y have
> > > various allophones depending on the environment. In Spanish, for ex=
ample,
> > > the phoneme /n/ is pronounced one way when it is intervocalic and a=
nother
> > > when it is followed by a [g] or [c] and another when followed by [t=
], etc.
> > > The way you determine whether or not two sounds are separate phonem=
es or
> > > allophones of the same phoneme is to try and find two different wor=
ds that
> > > are exactly the same except for the two sounds in question. If two =
such
> > > words exist, then the sounds are separate phonemes. I don't have en=
ough
> > > experience to be able to make judgments about all modern dialects o=
f
> > > Nahuatl, but my impression is that the aspiration and the glottal s=
top are
> > > two separate phonemes. I would support this by providing a contrast=
ive
> > > pair of words consisting of the singular and plural of the indicati=
ve.
> > > Now, John, I know that you disagree that the singular ending of the=

> > > indicative is a glottal stop. It is tough to argue these kind of th=
ings
> > > over email without the benefit of speech, and you have more access =
to
> > > native informants than I do, but I still think that what you descri=
be as a
> > > closing off of the throat is a glottal stop. And I disagree that al=
l words
> > > in any language must end by closing off the throat. In English when=
 we
> > > pronounce a word that ends in a vowel, we don't close off the throa=
t at
> > > the end. The word "go" for example doesn't end by abruptly interrup=
ting
> > > the vibration of the vocal chords by closing off the throat. The vo=
cal
> > > chords just quit vibrating and we cease to expel air. Glottal stop =
is
> > > defined precisely as a closing off of the throat using the glottis =
and
> > > consequently an abrupt stopping of vocal chord vibration. The nativ=
e
> > > speaker with whom I have had experience had a very clear glottal st=
op at
> > > the end of verbs in the indicative singular. The difficulty I had w=
as in
> > > determining if there was an aspiration at the end of the plural or =
not. I
> > > like to think there was a faint aspiration just as you have noted i=
n the
> > > speech of Huastecan Nahuatl. So, if this is the case, then we have =
a
> > > contrastive pair in the third person singular and third person plur=
al
> > > indicative verbs such as quicua [kwa?] and quicuah [kwah] where the=

> > > [?]=3D3Dglottal stop. (The phonetic symbol is actually an upside do=
wn
> > questio=3D
> > > n
> > > mark with no dot, but I can't make that go through on the email.) I=

> > > conclude therefore that the glottal stop and the aspiration are two=

> > > separate phonemes.
> > > I submit this argument humbly and ask any of the professional lingu=
ists to
> > > correct my reasoning if it is flawed.
> > > Galen=3D20


From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu  Sun Feb 13 19:24:02 2000
From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:24:02 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2000.122402.0700.>

Joost,
I think you have to distinguish here between dialects. If I understand John
correctly, your description is accurate for the Huastecan dialect. But there
are dialects in which the original saltillo is now an [h] both at the end of
the word and before consonants. In these dialects, the glottal stop has
disappeared as a phoneme, although it still appears after word final vowels.
Galen

> as for nahuatl, the case seems to be the following. (in this, i base
> myself on the discussion on this list, as i have no first-hand
> information.) there is an underlying phoneme, call it saltillo, that has
> at least two allophones: as [h] in word-final position and between
> vowels, and as a glottal stop (perhaps accompanied by aspiration) before
> a consonant. if i'm not mistaken, (but i get all my information trough
> the web, so for what it's worth:) it is even a velar fricative (close to
> spanish j) in some dialects. the question what the underlying phoneme
> is, cannot be answered easily. (from what i've read on the list so far,
> i would argue it is probably /h/, not a glottal stop, but this is not a
> critical question.)
>
> apart from this, there is apparently a rule that inserts a glottal stop
> after a word-final vowel. this glottal stop is not part of the phonemic
> string that underlies a word, it is inserted afterwards. it is
> comparable to the rule that inserts a glottal stop before word-initial
> vowels in german (and other languages, e.g., dutch). i.e., it is not a
> phonemic, but a phonological phenomenon.
>
> so we have:
>
> tlahtoah: underlyingly /Lahtoah/ (i'll just use L to indicate the
> lateral plosive, for want of a better way...). allophone assignment
> makes the first /h/ a /?/, and the second a /h/. no further rules apply,
> so we get [La?toah].
>
> tlahtoa: underlyingly /Lahtoa/. allophone assignment makes the /h/ a
> /?/. after that, another rule, say 'post-glottalization', adds a /?/.
> so, the word comes out as [La?toa?].
>
> note that native speakers of a language are usually aware of the
> presence of phonemes, (although they may not recognize the allophones),
> but they are not aware of the inserted elements. for example, a speaker
> of spanish recognizes the presence of a phoneme /b/ in 'mover' (he will
> say the word consists of the sounds m, o, b (or v), e and r). but a
> speaker of (british) english will not be aware that there is a glottal
> stop in his pronunciation of 'dent'. that means that if the descriptions
> given in this list of actual speech from native speakers is correct,
> they should consider plural quicuah as containing one more sound than
> singular quicua.
>
> here ends my lecture :-) as i said, the conclusion reached in the
> discussion is quite correct. i just added my bit to explain how
> phonologists would probably look at the matter.
>
> Joost Kremers
>
> -------------------------------------------
> Joost Kremers
>
> University of Nijmegen - The Netherlands
> Department of Languages and Cultures of the Middle East
> POBox 9103
> 6501 HD Nijmegen - The Netherlands
> phone: +31 24 3608226
>
> Galen Brokaw wrote:
> > =
>
> > John,
> > You are right. I think my last email crossed with yours in cyberspace. =
> In the
> > dialects we are discussing, the glottal stop is not a phoneme. But the =
> closing
> > off of the throat is a nonphonemic glottal stop which occurs at the end=
>  of vowel
> > final words. I think that was the original issue that Fran's post raise=
> d in my
> > mind. So, if I may sum up here just to see if we are all on the same pa=
> ge. And
> > please Fran, Mary, John, et al please correct me if I'm wrong:
> > 1. The saltillo was a glottal stop in Classical (I know that from what =
> John has
> > said he may disagree with this)
> > 2. In many (most?) modern dialects the glottal stop evolved into an asp=
> iration
> > /h/
> > 3. In these dialects the glottal stop is no longer a phoneme but exists=
>  as a
> > phonetic characteristic of world final vowels.
> > 4. In these modern dialects, the indicative singular verbs end with thi=
> s
> > nonphonemic glottal stop
> > 5. In Classical, the indicative plural verbs ended with a glottal stop,=
>  which
> > was referred to as a saltillo (see #1)
> > 6. In these modern dialects, the Classical saltillo of the indicative p=
> lural
> > verbs has evolved into an aspiration /h/ (see #2 and #5).
> > 7. Most linguists continue to refer to the modern /h/ as a saltillo/glo=
> ttal stop
> > for historical reasons even though phonetically it is not.
> > =
>
> > I do have one question for those who may know. Are there differences of=
>  opinion
> > among linguists about what the saltillo was phonetically in Classical N=
> ahuatl?
> > Also, I should say that although this discussion may seem pedantic to m=
> any, it
> > has been very informative for me and I appreciate the dialogue with Joh=
> n,
> > Michael, and Mary.
> > Galen
> > =
>
> > John Sullivan Hendricks wrote:
> > =
>
> > > Galen,
> > > I'm sorry for the lack of precision with my terminology, but I'm not =
> a
> > > linguist and the last course I took in linguistics was about 20 years=
>  ago.
> > > However, my lay description of the phoneme/allophone distinction was
> > > correct, although we disagree on its applicability in this case.  Mov=
> ing
> > > along, when I wrote, "The pronunciation of the vowel which ends the s=
> ingular
> > > form, terminates with a closing off of the throat.  But this is true =
> of all
> > > word final vowels," what I should have said was, "this is true of all=
>  word
> > > final vowels in Nahuatl."  I never meant to refer to "all languages. =
>  With
> > > this said, I agree with Mary's suggestion that the closing off of the=
>  throat
> > > after word final vowels in Nahuatl MIGHT only mark the absence of the=
>
> > > saltillo. Don't you think it's a bit suspect that the only criterion =
> for
> > > distinction between the two phonemes you postulate (glottal stop and
> > > aspiration) is in the case of singular vs. plural?  O are you aware o=
> f any
> > > word-internal distinctive pairs which contrast the glottal stop and t=
> he
> > > aspiration?
> > >         John Sullivan
> > >         Universidad Aut=F3noma de Zacatecas
> > >
> > > -----Mensaje original-----
> > > De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt=
> =2Eedu]En
> > > nombre de Mary Clayton
> > > Enviado el: Jueves, 10 de Febrero de 2000 01:57 p.m.
> > > Para: Multiple recipients of list
> > > Asunto: RE: tlahtoa / saltillo
> > >
> > > Galen,
> > >      I think you've given an admirable account of the concept of
> > > phonemes and allophones. I think that the 'disagreement' here may act=
> ually
> > > involve an unstated assumption, which doesn't directly involve 'fact'=
> , but
> > > (as is usual in linguistics at all levels of analysis -- even phoneti=
> cs)
> > > *interpretation* of fact.
> > >      I think that the question that one would need to ask is: Is ther=
> e any
> > > *third* way for words to end [that don't end in other consonants, of
> > > course]? That is, do the h and the glottal stop form a three-way cont=
> rast
> > > with a simple final vowel which is followed by NEITHER of these? Beca=
> use a
> > > (not unreasonable) linguistic assumption might be that one of these i=
> s
> > > distinctive (as are other consonants) while the other just marks its
> > > absence, that is, just draws special attention to the fact that the w=
> ord
> > > in question ends in a vowel rather than glottal stop (or h, depending=
>  on
> > > which way you want to argue). Seen this way, the question would be: C=
> an
> > > words end in
> > >       -h,
> > >       -? ( =3D glottal stop)
> > >       -C ( =3D any consonant other than glottal stop)
> > >       or -V (=3D any vowel)?
> > >
> > > Or are the choices just
> > >       -h and -V as "allophones"
> > >       -?
> > >       -C
> > >
> > > or    -? and -V as "allophones"
> > >       -h
> > >       -C
> > >
> > >      Most people take a historical position on this question, calling=
>  the
> > > [historical] glottal stop a 'glottal stop' or 'saltillo' regardless o=
> f
> > > whether it is pronounced as [h] or [?] in the dialect in question.
> > > Whichever the pronunciation, this segment shows up in the morphologic=
> ally
> > > expected places, which is one reason to keep the name the same even
> > > thought the pronunciation of presnest-day dialects may differ.
> > >      A way to 'explain' the modern distribution of sounds for those
> > > dialects which have  *real* glottal stops in the singular is that
> > > the *historical* glottal stop has > [h], and the *new* glottal stop j=
> ust
> > > signals its absence. Taken too literally, this sounds like double-tal=
> k, of
> > > course: [?] =3D nothing and [h] =3D glottal stop, but it's a natural =
> way of
> > > thinking for people who work with both classical and modern.
> > >
> > >      Let me mention two personal observations which are relevant to t=
> he
> > > issue, and certainly don't make it any simpler:
> > >
> > >      -- One of Joe's young friends (from Oapan) who is heavily
> > > Nahuatl-dominant, when speaking Spanish very frequently ends vowel-fi=
> nal
> > > words with a glottal stop. Spanish "si/" is [si?] and "no" is [no?]. =
> I
> > > don't think he's exceptional. He's just the one I've heard the most (=
> on
> > > tape -- his tapes frequently accompany us on car trips.)
> > >
> > >      -- There is a characteristic of general Mexican Spanish which ma=
> y
> > > play a part in the confusion. I'm talking about Mexican speakers who =
> know
> > > no Nahuatl, many of whom have probably had little or no exposure to i=
> t. My
> > > Caribbean-hearing ear (I'm from Tampa and grew up around Cuban-type
> > > Spanish) hears enough trailing-off of voice at the end of vowel-final=
>
> > > words in Mexican Spanish to qualify them for -s final words in Cuban.=
>
> > > That is to say, many pronunciations of singular nouns would be heard =
> as
> > > plurals by people who turn s > h, and third-singular verbs sound like=
>
> > > tu-forms.  But Mexicans don't *mean* or *intend* this 'aspiration', i=
> t's
> > > just the way they frequently pronounce vowels in final positions.
> > >      This may well influence the way 'outsiders' who are very familia=
> r
> > > with Mexican Spanish, whether native spekers or not, perceive final v=
> owels
> > > or final -h's in Nahuatl. I'll stop short of speculating what effect =
> it
> > > may have on Nahuatl speakers.
> > >
> > > Mary
> > >
> > > On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > John,
> > > > I have to respectfully disagree. The linguistic terms you refer to =
> are
> > > > phoneme and allophone. The phoneme is the phonetic element which ma=
> y have
> > > > various allophones depending on the environment. In Spanish, for ex=
> ample,
> > > > the phoneme /n/ is pronounced one way when it is intervocalic and a=
> nother
> > > > when it is followed by a [g] or [c] and another when followed by [t=
> ], etc.
> > > > The way you determine whether or not two sounds are separate phonem=
> es or
> > > > allophones of the same phoneme is to try and find two different wor=
> ds that
> > > > are exactly the same except for the two sounds in question. If two =
> such
> > > > words exist, then the sounds are separate phonemes. I don't have en=
> ough
> > > > experience to be able to make judgments about all modern dialects o=
> f
> > > > Nahuatl, but my impression is that the aspiration and the glottal s=
> top are
> > > > two separate phonemes. I would support this by providing a contrast=
> ive
> > > > pair of words consisting of the singular and plural of the indicati=
> ve.
> > > > Now, John, I know that you disagree that the singular ending of the=
>
> > > > indicative is a glottal stop. It is tough to argue these kind of th=
> ings
> > > > over email without the benefit of speech, and you have more access =
> to
> > > > native informants than I do, but I still think that what you descri=
> be as a
> > > > closing off of the throat is a glottal stop. And I disagree that al=
> l words
> > > > in any language must end by closing off the throat. In English when=
>  we
> > > > pronounce a word that ends in a vowel, we don't close off the throa=
> t at
> > > > the end. The word "go" for example doesn't end by abruptly interrup=
> ting
> > > > the vibration of the vocal chords by closing off the throat. The vo=
> cal
> > > > chords just quit vibrating and we cease to expel air. Glottal stop =
> is
> > > > defined precisely as a closing off of the throat using the glottis =
> and
> > > > consequently an abrupt stopping of vocal chord vibration. The nativ=
> e
> > > > speaker with whom I have had experience had a very clear glottal st=
> op at
> > > > the end of verbs in the indicative singular. The difficulty I had w=
> as in
> > > > determining if there was an aspiration at the end of the plural or =
> not. I
> > > > like to think there was a faint aspiration just as you have noted i=
> n the
> > > > speech of Huastecan Nahuatl. So, if this is the case, then we have =
> a
> > > > contrastive pair in the third person singular and third person plur=
> al
> > > > indicative verbs such as quicua [kwa?] and quicuah [kwah] where the=
>
> > > > [?]=3D3Dglottal stop. (The phonetic symbol is actually an upside do=
> wn
> > > questio=3D
> > > > n
> > > > mark with no dot, but I can't make that go through on the email.) I=
>
> > > > conclude therefore that the glottal stop and the aspiration are two=
>
> > > > separate phonemes.
> > > > I submit this argument humbly and ask any of the professional lingu=
> ists to
> > > > correct my reasoning if it is flawed.
> > > > Galen=3D20


From J.Kremers at let.kun.nl  Mon Feb 14 13:06:46 2000
From: J.Kremers at let.kun.nl (Joost Kremers)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 06:06:46 -0700
Subject: two questions (and Re: tlahtoa / saltillo)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2000.060646.0700.>

hi galen and all,

>I think you have to distinguish here between dialects. If I understand John
>correctly, your description is accurate for the Huastecan dialect. But there
>are dialects in which the original saltillo is now an [h] both at the end of
>the word and before consonants.

well, i based my comments on the remarks in this list. i have no first-hand
information.

in relation to this matter, i have two questions: i am just beginning to
learn nahuatl, and i am now wandering what would be the best pronunciation
of the letter h (as in the andrews and karttunen/campbell orthography) to
accustom myself to? as glottal stop, as /h/, as either depending on
context, or perhaps even as spanish j?

and furthermore, does anyone know if there are any sound fragments of
spoken nahuatl available on the internet? anything that might help me in
acquiring some sort of a reasonable pronunciation?

thanks in advance,

joost kremers


----------------------------------------
Joost Kremers
Katholieke Universiteit Nijmegen
Talen en Culturen van het Midden-Oosten
Postbus 9103
6500 HD Nijmegen
tel: 024-3612996
fax: 024-3611972


From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb 15 02:42:25 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:42:25 -0700
Subject: tlahtoa / saltillo
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2000.194225.0700.>

There is a difference between saltillo (whatever its phonetic realization)
and the other phenomenon under discussion.

Saltillo is the name for a segmental phoneme not only in 16th-century
Central Mexican Nahuatl, but in a lot of varieties of currently-spoken
Nahuatl.  It serves to distinguish meaning in many, many minimal pairs (not
just singular/plural).  Its role in the phonology and morphology of Nahuatl
is like that of other consonants, such as t or p.

The closing off of short vowels in word-final position is contextual, not
segmental.

How one chooses to represent it is arbitrary, but getting saltillo mixed up
with anything nonsegmental by using "h" sometimes for one and sometimes for
the other is an invitation to confusion.

Fran


From karttu at nantucket.net  Tue Feb 15 03:02:52 2000
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:02:52 -0700
Subject: appropriation of a culture
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2000.200252.0700.>

The following will soon appear in the SSILA Bulletin

INDIAN LANGUAGES TO BE INCORPORATED INTO COMPUTER GAME

Heriberto Avelino (avelino at ucla.edu) writes us that, some weeks ago,
he received a series of messages from a CD-ROM development company in
Los Angeles.  They are working on an update of "Age of Empires II",
an "educational, historical CD-ROM computer game" that is marketed by
Microsoft.  This enormously popular "real-time strategy" game combines
"stunning graphics" with the "drama and intrigue" of world history from
the Fall of Rome through the Middle Ages.  According to the game's
official website:

    ...players are challenged to build their nations into great
    civilizations and defeat the enemy by making strategic decisions
    throughout the game.  Each of the 13 civilizations represented in
    "Age of Empires II," including the Mongols, Celts, Vikings and
    Japanese, features distinctive attributes, buildings and techno-
    logies and a unique combat unit based on its historical counterpart.
    In addition, "Age of Empires II" features five campaigns based on
    the adventures of prominent historical figures, including Joan of
    Arc, William Wallace and Ghengis Khan, that draw players deeper
    into the game as they march alongside the hero to victory.

In the update that is being prepared, two New World civilizations will
being added to the roster:  The Aztec Empire and the Classical Maya.
Heriberto was contacted to see if he would be interested in recording
dialogue in Nahuatl.  The developers explained:

    Single word statements and commands will occur when the player
    clicks on a villager, priest, military man or king (one set
    each for the various cultures).  The client is anxious that
    the pronunciations be historically and linguistically accurate.
    They are providing us translations with phonetic spellings.
    That means that, in the case of Nahuatl, it will be Classical
    Nahuatl that would be spoken.  [We think] it important that
    people native to the country in general, and familiar with
    Nahuatl specifically (even if it's only the "modern" version)
    be utilized for the speaking parts, because that would greatly
    increase our chances of correct pronunciations.  We need one
    woman and two men for each language.  We will have each man
    do two speaking parts in varying "voices."  Each person would
    have about twenty (or less) single and double word phrases to
    utter.

Heriberto rejected the job because he felt that it was not right for
a company like Microsoft to use contemporary cultures and languages
in combat games.  To him, this is far from being an "educational" or
"historic" tool.  Doubtless, however, the forces of commodification
will prevail, and hordes of adolescent gamers around the world will
soon be (electronically) crying "Die, vile scum!" in Classical Nahuatl
as they hurl their virtual spears at the enemy.  (One wonders if the
parameters of the game allow for the defeat of Cortez?)

Meanwhile, for the curious, further information on "Age of Empires II"
can be found on the web at:

                 http://www.microsoft.com/games/age2/

Lest you think this is a small matter, either culturally or commercially,
Microsoft has so far shipped over two million copies of "Age of Empires
II", and it sells at a retail price of $54.95.


From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx  Tue Feb 15 21:31:20 2000
From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:31:20 -0700
Subject: appropriation of a culture
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.143120.0700.>

I don't think people should cooperate in any way with war games.
Supposedly, since the birth of the UN or League of Nations(?), one of
humanity's official goals has been to end war.  Obviously we haven't done
too great a job, but that doesn't change the imperative.  I probably
wouldn't have responded to this issue, but here in Mexico we have been going
through tough times with respect to authoritarianism vs. democracy.  The
federal government has shamelessly unmasked the difference between its
discourse on democratization, and its real authoritarian practices with
respect to the UNAM.  I'm not knocking Mexico: democracy has never had a
place in US educational institutions.  Mexican public universities are
trying to make it work, and I guess the most visible failures and setbacks
are always suffered by those on the front lines.  Anyway, dialogue is what
we should practice, support, teach, and cooperate with; not games that teach
people how to fight.
	John Sullivan
	Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas

-----Mensaje original-----
De: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]En
nombre de XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com
Enviado el: Martes, 15 de Febrero de 2000 12:30 p.m.
Para: Multiple recipients of list
Asunto: Re: appropriation of a culture


So when a videogame has this large of an impact on our youngsters and
strategy game-playing adults such as myself, which is the lessor evil?
Including the Aztec and Maya in such a combat game, or excluding them?

Include them, and suffer yet another association to a combative, violent
history -- to this I would ask: which MAJOR civilization on par with the
Aztec/Maya hasn't had is share of battles?  Exclude the Aztec and Maya and
the game will suffer from a lack of cultural breadth -- and ance again
perpetuate the ignorance that all civilization radiates from Eurasia.

The game will be released by Microsoft with or without the Aztecs and Mayas
-- the question is, can it be done tastefully and responsibly?  Will the
goal
be to conquer the native peoples (as some videogames have as their aim) or
to
ally with them?

If we are to believe the the brief description included and the model
provided at the weblink given, the player is supposed to ALLY (read:
sympathize) with the native warriors and rulers, to "fight alongside them"
with their great leaders.  I think we greatly understimate the power of
positive transference this identification might have.  Witness the strength
and resurgence that Celtic culture has had through technology in recent
years
via roleplaying and combat games.  I know non-Celts out there who easily
know
more about Celtic history than American history through such immersive
involvement in using the terms and guiding principles of that culture.

Last time I played a strategic computer wargame (for example Warcraft) the
human characters did not hurl epithets at each other when they were clicked
on for commands.  They said such things as "My Lord, what is your wish?"
and
"Ballista Engaged", etc.  I cannot vouch for Microsoft's Age of Empires, but
based on what Microsoft's request was:

<< Single word statements and commands will occur when the player
    clicks on a villager, priest, military man or king (one set
    each for the various cultures).>>

Single-word statements of acknowledgement hardly equate with epithets such
as
"Die, vile scum!" as was feared.  Was that really what Microsoft was asking
for?  Insults?  Until I know more about the project itself and how the
characters are intended to be used, I'm taking the entire preview with a
grain of salt.

In the end, it sounds to me as if the decline of involvement in this venture
was more a pro-peace statement than one of cultural preservation.
Precolumbian warrior culture deserves to be canonized as much as any other
(Samurai, Celts, Mongols, what-have-you), and be it though popular culture
and videogames, *so be it*.  I hope Microsoft does find somebody to
spearhead
this aspect of the project, and finds a noble, knowledgeable person to do
it,
because I really don't think cultural absorption of this kind can or should
be stopped.  Its foolish to think of the game as an educational tool.  But
with well-researched cultural backgrounds, such as the overview at
http://www.microsoft.com/Games/age2/c_byzantines.htm, it's clearly a game
with educational possibilities and the potential to reach a broad
cross-section of our culture.  If this game gets people to "think like
Aztecs", using their strategies, weaponry and life principles, what is the
harm?  Stong warrior cultures such as the Celts and Japanese embrace the
"fantastical" nature their cultures have come to hold in the eyes of
outsiders, even integrate it to their advantage (witness the HUGE boom in
japanimation and how the genre is received as a legitimate form of
contemporary mythmaking even here in America).

Imagine if the average 14-year-old boy actually knew what a maccuahuitl was,
and was proud to weild it, if only in a virtual manner?  I can imagine this
world.

I write this well knowing my defense of this game might might not be
well-received in this group.  So be it.  I've seen many poor appropriations
of culture in recent years, made somewhat of an informal study of it, and I
feel strongly that this wargaming project has more potential to educate and
evoke sympathy than hurt, breed hate or misunderstanding.

Alison King


From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Tue Feb 15 22:32:32 2000
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:32:32 -0700
Subject: Olmecs
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.153232.0700.>

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It is said that the Olmecs were the inhabitants of Olman,  (place of
rubber - "ulli").  Would anyone know what was the role of rubber in their
lives?

Thanks a lot,
Susana Moraleda

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From bortiz at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 15 23:40:27 2000
From: bortiz at earthlink.net (Bernard Ortiz de Montellano)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:40:27 -0700
Subject: Olmecs
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.164027.0700.>

>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0057_01BF780B.35875C20
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>It is said that the Olmecs were the inhabitants of Olman,  (place of
>rubber - "ulli").  Would anyone know what was the role of rubber in their
>lives?
>
>Thanks a lot,
>Susana Moraleda
The ball game was a very important part of Mesoamerican  world view, and
began very early. The oldest Olmec ball court found is  dated 1400 B.C.
Rubber balls have been found in the Olmec swampy site of El Manati.

Dorothy Hosler has recently published a paper showing thst the techniques
natives use to make rubber is the same as that reported in early colonial
times.

Bernard Ortiz de Montellano


From micc at home.com  Wed Feb 16 01:45:53 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:45:53 -0700
Subject: Olmecs
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.184553.0700.>

In historical times, rubber was also used as an incense (albeit a smelly
incense, but hey, what would the Olmeca think of our "air fresheners,
chemicals and all?......)      .....:)

Bernard Ortiz de Montellano wrote:
>
> >This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> >
> >------=_NextPart_000_0057_01BF780B.35875C20
> >Content-Type: text/plain;
> >       charset="iso-8859-1"
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> >It is said that the Olmecs were the inhabitants of Olman,  (place of
> >rubber - "ulli").  Would anyone know what was the role of rubber in their
> >lives?
> >
> >Thanks a lot,
> >Susana Moraleda
> The ball game was a very important part of Mesoamerican  world view, and
> began very early. The oldest Olmec ball court found is  dated 1400 B.C.
> Rubber balls have been found in the Olmec swampy site of El Manati.
>
> Dorothy Hosler has recently published a paper showing thst the techniques
> natives use to make rubber is the same as that reported in early colonial
> times.
>
> Bernard Ortiz de Montellano


From mmontcha at oregonvos.net  Wed Feb 16 01:56:21 2000
From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:56:21 -0700
Subject: ulli = "rubber" Re: Olmecs
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.185621.0700.>

Susana Moraleda wrote:
|>It is said that the Olmecs were the inhabitants of Olman,  (place of
|>rubber - "ulli").  Would anyone know what was the role of rubber in
|>their lives?

Bernard Ortiz de Montellano wrote:
|The ball game was a very important part of Mesoamerican  world view, and
|began very early. The oldest Olmec ball court found is  dated 1400 B.C.
|Rubber balls have been found in the Olmec swampy site of El Manati.
|
|Dorothy Hosler has recently published a paper showing thst the techniques
|natives use to make rubber is the same as that reported in early colonial

Does "ulli" mean rubber, or the rubber ball that one plays with?

I can't help but notice that the verb olOloA means 'roll into a ball'
with uppercase denoting long vowels.  Is there a connection between
these words?


From micc at home.com  Wed Feb 16 02:06:34 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:06:34 -0700
Subject: ulli = "rubber" Re: Olmecs
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.190634.0700.>

i beleive it means rubber.....Also I faintly remember reading somewhere
(or was it a bad dream after eating too much molli?)
that the "olli" in colli has to do with roundedness ( as in coltzin,
coliuqui, etc.)

Matthew Montchalin wrote:
>
> Susana Moraleda wrote:
> |>It is said that the Olmecs were the inhabitants of Olman,  (place of
> |>rubber - "ulli").  Would anyone know what was the role of rubber in
> |>their lives?
>
> Bernard Ortiz de Montellano wrote:
> |The ball game was a very important part of Mesoamerican  world view, and
> |began very early. The oldest Olmec ball court found is  dated 1400 B.C.
> |Rubber balls have been found in the Olmec swampy site of El Manati.
> |
> |Dorothy Hosler has recently published a paper showing thst the techniques
> |natives use to make rubber is the same as that reported in early colonial
>
> Does "ulli" mean rubber, or the rubber ball that one plays with?
>
> I can't help but notice that the verb olOloA means 'roll into a ball'
> with uppercase denoting long vowels.  Is there a connection between
> these words?


From GESX1CKAH at aol.com  Wed Feb 16 02:16:48 2000
From: GESX1CKAH at aol.com (GESX1CKAH at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:16:48 -0700
Subject: Olmecs and other quest
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.191648.0700.>

1)  Was there another reason for ball and ballcourts other than recreational
sport?

2)  And can anyone tell me if Xicano (chicano) is a nahuatl word with a
meaning... what does it mean?

thanks

jess


From micc at home.com  Wed Feb 16 02:37:14 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:37:14 -0700
Subject: Olmecs and other quest
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.193714.0700.>

The ball game or "tlachtli" was 10% "recreational" or "entertainment
spectacle"  and 90% ritual and cosmological in importance. Just as any
modern or ancient ritual is pretty much an event for human consumption,
the ball game was a ritualized replaying of the cosmic order.  there are
several books available on the subject (none of which I can find at the
moment!) The hands could not be used in manipulating the solid hard
rubber ball.....ouch!!!!!!!!!

I understand that the tradtional game has survived into this day in
Sinaola, where it has spread once again to other areas of Mesoamerica,
in a energetic 'reconquest" of the Mexican national psyche....


now where did I put my kidney-protection padding....

GESX1CKAH at aol.com wrote:
>
> 1)  Was there another reason for ball and ballcourts other than recreational
> sport?
>
> 2)  And can anyone tell me if Xicano (chicano) is a nahuatl word with a
> meaning... what does it mean?
>
> thanks
>
> jess


From mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br  Wed Feb 16 04:51:24 2000
From: mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br (marcos)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 01:51:24 -0300
Subject: Codex Borgia
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2000.015124.0300.MTEIXEIRA@FEM.UNICAMP.BR>

Someone know this reproduction of the Codex Borgia? It is complete (the
full Codex) and in a god quality printing ? Please, if someone saw this
reproduction, help me, because I want to buy it in www.amazon.com.

The Codex Borgia : A Full-Color Restoration of the Ancient Mexican
Manuscript
by Gisele Diaz, Alan Rodgers (Contributor), Bruce E. Byland (Introduction)

Thank you.

Gl?ucia


From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com  Wed Feb 16 05:44:06 2000
From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:44:06 -0700
Subject: appropriation of a culture
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.224406.0700.>

Hermanos,

    If I could choose between being ignored and being exploited (again) I
would choose being ignored. There are many of us Chicanos and other
indigenous descendants who do not believe that the warrior past was the
highpoint of our people. We believe that it was a phase that many cultures
pass through, that it served a purpose in time, and that it would have died
out on its own as it did in many other areas. The the European intrusion
stopped the natural evolution of the indigenous peoples. We are left with a
picture of what things were like at that point in time. But we know that not
all our brothers in Mexico and Central America were at the same point of
development. In some places, the warfare and kingdom system had come and
gone, in other places it had never been started, and maybe it never would
have. We can only speculate.
    I would rather that video games study the music, astronomy, poetry,
agriculture, respect for nature, etc., the elements of our culture in which
we build our pride. The warrior societies and ritual sacrifices should be
mentioned in a study of our people, but should not be the principal focus.

                                            A los cuatro vientos, Hermanos,
                                            Henry Vasquez


From micc at home.com  Wed Feb 16 06:06:30 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 23:06:30 -0700
Subject: appropriation of a culture
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2000.230630.0700.>

It is good to read such wise words from a fellow Chicano!!!  there are
too many 'warriors" out there trying to instill hatred, ethnocentric
racism, and hostility. all in the name of "cultural awareness and
spirituality"!

mario e. aguilar
www.aguila-blanca.com

HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com wrote:
>
> Hermanos,
>
>     If I could choose between being ignored and being exploited (again) I
> would choose being ignored. There are many of us Chicanos and other
> indigenous descendants who do not believe that the warrior past was the
> highpoint of our people. We believe that it was a phase that many cultures
> pass through, that it served a purpose in time, and that it would have died
> out on its own as it did in many other areas. The the European intrusion
> stopped the natural evolution of the indigenous peoples. We are left with a
> picture of what things were like at that point in time. But we know that not
> all our brothers in Mexico and Central America were at the same point of
> development. In some places, the warfare and kingdom system had come and
> gone, in other places it had never been started, and maybe it never would
> have. We can only speculate.
>     I would rather that video games study the music, astronomy, poetry,
> agriculture, respect for nature, etc., the elements of our culture in which
> we build our pride. The warrior societies and ritual sacrifices should be
> mentioned in a study of our people, but should not be the principal focus.
>
>                                             A los cuatro vientos, Hermanos,
>                                             Henry Vasquez


From marisol at tiscalinet.it  Wed Feb 16 11:49:45 2000
From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 04:49:45 -0700
Subject: Olmecs and ballgame
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2000.044945.0700.>

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I just came across the term "ollamaliztli" to designate the ball game.  What
is its relation with "tlachtli"? and how does one analyze its
semantics?....... and which is the correct one?

Thanks again,
Susana Moraleda

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From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Wed Feb 16 17:11:32 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:11:32 -0700
Subject: Disks arrived
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2000.101132.0700.>

Dear Joe,

The disks arrived yesterday, and I have had a chance to take a look.  To
save me a little time, could you tell mean what all the files represent?

Fritz

John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From CCBtlevine at aol.com  Thu Feb 17 18:51:16 2000
From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:51:16 -0700
Subject: Olmecs and other quest
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2000.115116.0700.>

In a message dated 02/15/2000 6:40:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, micc at home.co=
m=20
writes:

<< The ball game or "tlachtli" was 10% "recreational" or "entertainment
 spectacle"  and 90% ritual and cosmological in importance. >>

Duran took a different view of the game.  It was a game and it continued to=20
be played long after the conquest.  They played with the fanatacism that=20
soccer is played today in Mexico.  They even had professional athletes,=20
people who did nothing for a living but playing ball.  I highly recommend=20
Duran's description in Chapter 23 of Volume II of the Historia de las Indias=
=20
de Nueva Espa=F1a e Islas de Tierra Firme.

Tom Levine


From micc at home.com  Fri Feb 18 14:40:23 2000
From: micc at home.com (micc at home.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 07:40:23 -0700
Subject: Olmecs and other quest
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2000.074023.0700.>

Duran, fortunately is not the only source for the ball game.  Tajin has
very elaborate sculptures that re-enforce other writer's description of
the game as a cosmolical battle.

The game may be a re-enactment of a mythical event: the Maya sacred
twin's ball game in the underworld, or the cosmic dance between
Tezcatlipoca and Quetzalcoatl.......


CCBtlevine at aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 02/15/2000 6:40:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, micc at home.co=
> m=20
> writes:
>
> << The ball game or "tlachtli" was 10% "recreational" or "entertainment
>  spectacle"  and 90% ritual and cosmological in importance. >>
>
> Duran took a different view of the game.  It was a game and it continued to=20
> be played long after the conquest.  They played with the fanatacism that=20
> soccer is played today in Mexico.  They even had professional athletes,=20
> people who did nothing for a living but playing ball.  I highly recommend=20
> Duran's description in Chapter 23 of Volume II of the Historia de las Indias=
> =20
> de Nueva Espa=F1a e Islas de Tierra Firme.
>
> Tom Levine


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Fri Feb 18 15:33:49 2000
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:33:49 -0700
Subject: Olmecs and other quest
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2000.083349.0700.>

So which came first, the game or the cosmological pageantry?

Mark



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
grief. Eccl 1:18

To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Fri Feb 18 16:59:48 2000
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:59:48 -0700
Subject: Language Questions
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2000.095948.0700.>

I am having a few quanderies in these moments about word forms and
meanings.

1) tlasotlaloni - why add l with -oni? (tlasohtla, verb, to love,
tlasotlaloni, adjective lovable)

2) icnelilia -  Which adjective, icno or icniuh, forms with the verb
nelihui to mean "give unto someone."

3) imoteicnelih-tzin.  Principally, what happens in the reflexive?  But,
in general ????????.  I have taken a stab with "your have given unto Men,"
but it sounds a bit awkward, so say the least.


Any, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
grief. Eccl 1:18

To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Feb 18 17:43:16 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:43:16 -0700
Subject: Language Questions
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2000.104316.0700.>

On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Mark David Morris wrote:

> I am having a few quanderies in these moments about word forms and
> meanings.
>
> 1) tlasotlaloni - why add l with -oni? (tlasohtla, verb, to love,
> tlasotlaloni, adjective lovable)

this is literally "tlasotlalo," the passive 'he/she is loved' plus -ni,
'the one who' => the one who is loved, i.e., 'loveable'


>
> 2) icnelilia -  Which adjective, icno or icniuh, forms with the verb
> nelihui to mean "give unto someone."
>

hmmmm..neither?

> 3) imoteicnelih-tzin.  Principally, what happens in the reflexive?  But,
> in general ????????.  I have taken a stab with "your have given unto Men,"
> but it sounds a bit awkward, so say the least.
>

"your givingness"?



>
> Any, any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Mark Morris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
> grief. Eccl 1:18
>
> To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
> regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
> are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
> sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71
>
> MDM, PhD Candidate
> Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
>
>


Michael McCafferty
C.E.L.T.
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

*******************************************************************************
"Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
from the me that others don't know
to the other me that I don't know.

-Juan Ramon Jimenez

*******************************************************************************


From CCBtlevine at aol.com  Fri Feb 18 21:03:34 2000
From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:03:34 -0700
Subject: Olmecs and other quest
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2000.140334.0700.>

In a message dated 02/18/2000 7:37:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mdmorris at indiana.edu writes:

<< So which came first, the game or the cosmological pageantry?

 Mark
  >>
Of course everything has its cosmic beginnings.  American football is the
reinactment of the battle of Troy.  The 11 leaders of the Trojan nation
backed by their gods, against the 11 leaders of the Greek, supported by their
gods all trying to get control over the beautiful ball, Helen.  At the same
time they are mad at Helen for being two faced, so they kick her to the sky,
trying to put her through the goal posts where they can safely score with
her.  The half time pagentry represents the beauty of ancient Greece.  Now,
can anyone prove that this isn't true?  Does anyone care?


From mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br  Sat Feb 19 03:17:12 2000
From: mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br (marcos)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:17:12 -0300
Subject: En: Codex Borgia
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2000.001712.0300.MTEIXEIRA@FEM.UNICAMP.BR>

----------
> De: Heather Hess <heatherhess at hotmail.com>
> Para: mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br
> Assunto: Re: Codex Borgia
> Data: Sexta-feira, 18 de Fevereiro de 2000 12:31
>
> I have seen the book.  My friend Tlanizpilli teaches nahautl, aztec dance

> and various related teachings in guadalajara.  All of the info she has is
in
> spanish with the exception of this book.  The book as far as I know is
> accurate with the exception of the colours.  The colours are not exactly
the
> same as in the original codices. When I get back to Canada I am ordering
the
> book.  It is very difficult to get accurate info on the Aztec Calendar,
> Codices and Aztec Astrology in English.  Does anyone know any good books
> with respect to the Tonalamatl or the interpretation of the calendar.
> Arturo Meza is, according to many friends I have in Guadalajara, the
leading
> authority on the interpretation of the Aztec Calendar Stone.  Apparently
his
> information is accurate.  I have his books but am not fluent in Spanish
and
> am working on getting them translated.
>
> I realize this message is not 100% Nahautl but it is all related!
> Thanks for any input!
>
> Yolohtzin
>
>
> >From: "marcos" <mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br>
> >To: <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
> >Subject: Codex Borgia
> >Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 01:51:24 -0300
> >
> >Someone know this reproduction of the Codex Borgia? It is complete (the
> >full Codex) and in a god quality printing ? Please, if someone saw this
> >reproduction, help me, because I want to buy it in www.amazon.com.
> >
> >The Codex Borgia : A Full-Color Restoration of the Ancient Mexican
> >Manuscript
> >by Gisele Diaz, Alan Rodgers (Contributor), Bruce E. Byland
(Introduction)
> >
> >Thank you.
> >
> >Gl?ucia
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>


From CCBtlevine at aol.com  Sat Feb 19 02:23:29 2000
From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:23:29 -0700
Subject: Olmecs and other quest
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2000.192329.0700.>

I apologize for my silly reply.  My initial reference to Duran's description
was simply to provide an eye-witness account of the ball game among the
Azteca and neighbors.  Whatever its origins, it seems that it became simply a
game that brought happiness to many people.

Tom Levine


From mikegaby at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 19 07:47:40 2000
From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 07:47:40 GMT
Subject: En: Codex Borgia
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2000.074740.GMT.MIKEGABY@HOTMAIL.COM>

I would advise being cautious when interpreting information on Mesoamerican
Calenders and thier related arts.  Much of the information has been
distorted from the original sources, syphoning through centuries of
colonialism and conflict.  I am not sure how one deems them to be
"accurate", relative to what? But keep in mind that this was secret info
even before the Spanish arrived.  In my experience, those that share this
too freely may not be as well informed as you might think.
There is still much discord raised on simply the correct correlation date,
let alone the more involved of the calender's arts.  Divining is a business
of sorts, and every business has it's shadier side.  Let the buyer beware.
Have fun peeling the onion...it will make you cry, but what flavor!
Mike

>From: "marcos" <mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br>
>To: "lista nahuatl" <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
>Subject: En: Codex Borgia
>Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:17:12 -0300
>
>
>
>----------
> > De: Heather Hess <heatherhess at hotmail.com>
> > Para: mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br
> > Assunto: Re: Codex Borgia
> > Data: Sexta-feira, 18 de Fevereiro de 2000 12:31
> >
> > I have seen the book.  My friend Tlanizpilli teaches nahautl, aztec
>dance
>
> > and various related teachings in guadalajara.  All of the info she has
>is
>in
> > spanish with the exception of this book.  The book as far as I know is
> > accurate with the exception of the colours.  The colours are not exactly
>the
> > same as in the original codices. When I get back to Canada I am ordering
>the
> > book.  It is very difficult to get accurate info on the Aztec Calendar,
> > Codices and Aztec Astrology in English.  Does anyone know any good books
> > with respect to the Tonalamatl or the interpretation of the calendar.
> > Arturo Meza is, according to many friends I have in Guadalajara, the
>leading
> > authority on the interpretation of the Aztec Calendar Stone.  Apparently
>his
> > information is accurate.  I have his books but am not fluent in Spanish
>and
> > am working on getting them translated.
> >
> > I realize this message is not 100% Nahautl but it is all related!
> > Thanks for any input!
> >
> > Yolohtzin
> >
> >
> > >From: "marcos" <mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br>
> > >To: <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
> > >Subject: Codex Borgia
> > >Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 01:51:24 -0300
> > >
> > >Someone know this reproduction of the Codex Borgia? It is complete (the
> > >full Codex) and in a god quality printing ? Please, if someone saw this
> > >reproduction, help me, because I want to buy it in www.amazon.com.
> > >
> > >The Codex Borgia : A Full-Color Restoration of the Ancient Mexican
> > >Manuscript
> > >by Gisele Diaz, Alan Rodgers (Contributor), Bruce E. Byland
>(Introduction)
> > >
> > >Thank you.
> > >
> > >Gl?ucia
> > >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> >

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From maffiej at spot.colorado.edu  Sun Feb 20 20:53:38 2000
From: maffiej at spot.colorado.edu (Maffie James)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 13:53:38 -0700
Subject: call for papers
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2000.135338.0700.>

Please circulate widely. Thankyou.


CALL FOR PAPERS

SOCIAL EPISTEMOLOGY: A JOURNAL OF KNOWLEDGE, CULTURE AND POLICY invites
submissions (3000-4000 words) in comparative philosophy or
comparative anthropology of knowledge, sociology of knowledge, religion,
or history of ideas that address the following topic: How important is
truth to epistemology and knowledge? While submissions may be grounded
primarily in one philosophical tradition (e.g. African, East Asian, South
Asian, Latin American, Western [Anglo-American or Continental]), they must
discuss the topic in a comparative manner.

	While truth has long occupied the center stage of many Western,
South Asian, Post-Han East Asian, and Arican epistemologies and
conceptions of knowledge, many Western philosophers have recently begun to
question and reject the centrality of truth and develop alternative,
non-truth-centered conceptions of epistemology and knowledge.The apparent
aberrant character of these alternatives is diminished by recent
scholarship in Pre-Han East Asian philosophies such as Confucianism and
Taoism which argues that these philosophical traditions lacked the concept
of truth and thus did not employ the notion of truth in their
epistemologies or conceptions of knowledge. Is truth essential to
knowledge and to epistemology? Do all philosophical traditions possess the
concept of truth and incorporate it into their epistemologies? If they do
not, what they they use instead of truth?



Submissions are due 12/31/00. Inquiries and submissions should be directed
to:

James Maffie
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Ft. Collins, CO 80523-1781
USA

e-mail: maffiej at lamar.colostate.edu


From mikegaby at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 20 23:11:42 2000
From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:11:42 GMT
Subject: En: Codex Borgia
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2000.231142.GMT.MIKEGABY@HOTMAIL.COM>

Sorry,
I did not mean to send this to the list.
Mike


>From: "mike gaby" <mikegaby at hotmail.com>
>To: mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br, nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
>Subject: Re: En: Codex Borgia
>Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 07:47:40 GMT
>
>I would advise being cautious when interpreting information on Mesoamerican
>Calenders and thier related arts.  Much of the information has been
>distorted from the original sources, syphoning through centuries of
>colonialism and conflict.  I am not sure how one deems them to be
>"accurate", relative to what? But keep in mind that this was secret info
>even before the Spanish arrived.  In my experience, those that share this
>too freely may not be as well informed as you might think.
>There is still much discord raised on simply the correct correlation date,
>let alone the more involved of the calender's arts.  Divining is a business
>of sorts, and every business has it's shadier side.  Let the buyer beware.
>Have fun peeling the onion...it will make you cry, but what flavor!
>Mike
>
>>From: "marcos" <mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br>
>>To: "lista nahuatl" <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
>>Subject: En: Codex Borgia
>>Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:17:12 -0300
>>
>>
>>
>>----------
>> > De: Heather Hess <heatherhess at hotmail.com>
>> > Para: mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br
>> > Assunto: Re: Codex Borgia
>> > Data: Sexta-feira, 18 de Fevereiro de 2000 12:31
>> >
>> > I have seen the book.  My friend Tlanizpilli teaches nahautl, aztec
>>dance
>>
>> > and various related teachings in guadalajara.  All of the info she has
>>is
>>in
>> > spanish with the exception of this book.  The book as far as I know is
>> > accurate with the exception of the colours.  The colours are not
>>exactly
>>the
>> > same as in the original codices. When I get back to Canada I am
>>ordering
>>the
>> > book.  It is very difficult to get accurate info on the Aztec Calendar,
>> > Codices and Aztec Astrology in English.  Does anyone know any good
>>books
>> > with respect to the Tonalamatl or the interpretation of the calendar.
>> > Arturo Meza is, according to many friends I have in Guadalajara, the
>>leading
>> > authority on the interpretation of the Aztec Calendar Stone.
>>Apparently
>>his
>> > information is accurate.  I have his books but am not fluent in Spanish
>>and
>> > am working on getting them translated.
>> >
>> > I realize this message is not 100% Nahautl but it is all related!
>> > Thanks for any input!
>> >
>> > Yolohtzin
>> >
>> >
>> > >From: "marcos" <mteixeira at fem.unicamp.br>
>> > >To: <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
>> > >Subject: Codex Borgia
>> > >Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 01:51:24 -0300
>> > >
>> > >Someone know this reproduction of the Codex Borgia? It is complete
>>(the
>> > >full Codex) and in a god quality printing ? Please, if someone saw
>>this
>> > >reproduction, help me, because I want to buy it in www.amazon.com.
>> > >
>> > >The Codex Borgia : A Full-Color Restoration of the Ancient Mexican
>> > >Manuscript
>> > >by Gisele Diaz, Alan Rodgers (Contributor), Bruce E. Byland
>>(Introduction)
>> > >
>> > >Thank you.
>> > >
>> > >Gl?ucia
>> > >
>> >
>> > ______________________________________________________
>> > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>> >
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From lm412 at is9.nyu.edu  Mon Feb 21 02:38:49 2000
From: lm412 at is9.nyu.edu (Lucas Molina)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 21:38:49 -0500
Subject: not a pot head, just wondering
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2000.213849.0500.LM412@IS9.NYU.EDU>

i'm not a drug user or anything, but i came across the word "yauhtli" in
vaillant's "Aztecs of Mexico".  he called it indian hemp, but i thought
all hemp was indian?

i'm also curious to know what everyone thinks about the trouble that's
been going on at UNAM.

thanks,

Lucas Molina


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Mon Feb 21 05:23:30 2000
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 00:23:30 -0500
Subject: not a pot head, just wondering
In-Reply-To: <38B0A539.F766C56D@is9.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2000.002330.0500.MDMORRIS@INDIANA.EDU>

Lucas,

Simeon's dictionary gives the following definition:  Planta que tiene el
olor y el sabor del anis; se la echaba al fuego en ves de incienso.
Servia para curar gran numero de enfermedades, particularmente las de los
ojos (ref. Sahagun, Clavijero and Francisco Hernandez).  That about the
eyes sounds like marijuana (African hemp?) but I've never thought it had
the smell nor taste of anis.  This yauhtli, then, may or may not be a hemp
plant, with common characteristics with the marijuana plant, which again,
I believe originates in Africa--but maybe the Rastafarians just convinced
me of that. It deserves further investigating, and I could recommend the
Florentine Codice (Sahagun) or this Nova plantarum animalium et mineralium
mexicanorum historia by Francisco Hernandez.
Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
grief. Eccl 1:18

To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Mon Feb 21 10:38:52 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 05:38:52 -0500
Subject: not a pot head, just wondering
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.96.1000221001112.10279A-100000@falstaff.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2000.053852.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

The term "hemp" has been used to designate other plants beside cannabis.
<Massane>, used by the early French in the Illinois Country and translated
consistently into English as "hemp" was not cannabis. I believe the early
historic use of "hemp" refers to any twine-producing plant.

MIchael McCafferty

On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Mark David Morris wrote:

> Lucas,
>
> Simeon's dictionary gives the following definition:  Planta que tiene el
> olor y el sabor del anis; se la echaba al fuego en ves de incienso.
> Servia para curar gran numero de enfermedades, particularmente las de los
> ojos (ref. Sahagun, Clavijero and Francisco Hernandez).  That about the
> eyes sounds like marijuana (African hemp?) but I've never thought it had
> the smell nor taste of anis.  This yauhtli, then, may or may not be a hemp
> plant, with common characteristics with the marijuana plant, which again,
> I believe originates in Africa--but maybe the Rastafarians just convinced
> me of that. It deserves further investigating, and I could recommend the
> Florentine Codice (Sahagun) or this Nova plantarum animalium et mineralium
> mexicanorum historia by Francisco Hernandez.
> Mark Morris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
> grief. Eccl 1:18
>
> To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
> regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
> are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
> sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71
>
> MDM, PhD Candidate
> Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
>
>


Michael McCafferty
C.E.L.T.
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

*******************************************************************************
"Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
from the me that others don't know
to the other me that I don't know.

-Juan Ramon Jimenez

*******************************************************************************


From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Mon Feb 21 11:48:35 2000
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:48:35 +0100
Subject: not a pot head, just wondering
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2000.124835.0100.JUERGEN.STOWASSER@UNIVIE.AC.AT>

Due to the Codex Badianus (Martin de la Cruz, Libellus de Medicinalibus
Indorum Herbis, 1552) "yauhtli" had a magic iuse for crossing rivers:
"El
que quiera pasar con seguridad un rio, o agua, ha de humedecerse el
pecho
con un liquido de las plantas yauhtli y tepepapaloquilitl molidas en
agua.
Ha de llevar en la mano un berilo, una cabeza y entranas de ostra, una
sard?nica y los ojos de un gran pez encerrados en la boca." (56r)The
commentator of the Badinao-edition by the Fondo de Cultura Economica
(M?xico
1991) identifies "yauhtli" as the peric?n (color verde obscuro-morado;
Tagetes esp). The botanist Reko classifies the plant as Tagetes florida
(although Sahagun differentiates between "yauhtli" and the Tagetes
"macuilxochitl" and  "cempoalxochitl").
Tagetes have been and are still used as incense but are also consumed as

spice, tea or are smoked with tobacco (maybe that for the comparison
with
the hemp which originates from India/Mesopotamia).There are various
refernces about the narcotic effects of the plant but - as i know - no
reliable toxicological study.
To yauhtli cf Ortiz de Montellano, Las hierbas de Tl?loc, Estudios de
Cultura Nahuatl 14/1980 (he mentions also also yauhtli if I remember
well).

                                    ciao, Juergen
pd: any ideas about the etymology? I tried to consult Simeon but found
nothing (maybe a relation with "yauitl" (ma?z negro) as a kind of
refernce
to the dark colour of yauhtli?)

Lucas Molina schrieb:

> i'm not a drug user or anything, but i came across the word "yauhtli"
in
> vaillant's "Aztecs of Mexico".  he called it indian hemp, but i
thought
> all hemp was indian?
>
> i'm also curious to know what everyone thinks about the trouble that's

> been going on at UNAM.
>
> thanks,
>
> Lucas Molina

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
Austria
tel: 01/ 524 54 60
0676/ 398 66 79


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Mon Feb 21 15:40:22 2000
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:40:22 -0500
Subject: not a pot head, just wondering
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.96.1000221053632.15031D-100000@othello.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2000.104022.0500.MDMORRIS@INDIANA.EDU>

Michael,

Thanks for the clarification on hemp.  I think you are right about the
English tradition of the word. So, this hemp with yellow flowers which
grows wild in sandy soils in the midwest is Massane and is native to the
Americas? Thanks also for explaining tlasotlaloni.  I promise to
read Carochi more carefully before asking further questions.  Mark

On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Michael Mccafferty wrote:

> The term "hemp" has been used to designate other plants beside cannabis.
> <Massane>, used by the early French in the Illinois Country and translated
> consistently into English as "hemp" was not cannabis. I believe the early
> historic use of "hemp" refers to any twine-producing plant.
>
> MIchael McCafferty
>
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Mark David Morris wrote:
>
> > Lucas,
> >
> > Simeon's dictionary gives the following definition:  Planta que tiene el
> > olor y el sabor del anis; se la echaba al fuego en ves de incienso.
> > Servia para curar gran numero de enfermedades, particularmente las de los
> > ojos (ref. Sahagun, Clavijero and Francisco Hernandez).  That about the
> > eyes sounds like marijuana (African hemp?) but I've never thought it had
> > the smell nor taste of anis.  This yauhtli, then, may or may not be a hemp
> > plant, with common characteristics with the marijuana plant, which again,
> > I believe originates in Africa--but maybe the Rastafarians just convinced
> > me of that. It deserves further investigating, and I could recommend the
> > Florentine Codice (Sahagun) or this Nova plantarum animalium et mineralium
> > mexicanorum historia by Francisco Hernandez.
> > Mark Morris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
> > grief. Eccl 1:18
> >
> > To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
> > regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
> > are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
> > sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71
> >
> > MDM, PhD Candidate
> > Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
> >
> >
>
>
> Michael McCafferty
> C.E.L.T.
> 307 Memorial Hall
> Indiana University
> Bloomington, Indiana
> 47405
> mmccaffe at indiana.edu
>
> *******************************************************************************
> "Glory" (what a word!) consists in going
> from the me that others don't know
> to the other me that I don't know.
>
> -Juan Ramon Jimenez
>
> *******************************************************************************
>
>



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
grief. Eccl 1:18

To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Tue Feb 22 11:51:52 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 06:51:52 -0500
Subject: iyauhtli (fwd)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2000.065152.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Dr. Karttunen has asked me to forward this message to the list.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:40:51 -0500
From: Frances Karttunen <karttu at nantucket.net>
To: Michael Mccafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
Subject: iyauhtli

According to Andrews and Hassig, whom I consider very reliable, yauhtli
(which is actually iya:uhtli) is Tagetes lucida, the Mexican sweet-scented
marigold (with its distinctive anise-like scent).

See p. 250 of A&H's translation of Ruiz de Alarcon's Treatise on the Heathen
Superstitions that Today Live Among the Indians Native to this New Spain
(University of Oklahoma Press).

Using R de A as a source is always painful, because he was a ruthless and
thorough inquisitor who hounded indigenous healers and practioners of
traditional Mesoamerican divination.  For that very reason he managed to
extract and record all sorts of information about herbal medicine and
everyday practices.

A&H's edition is not only a very fine translation, but it included indices
of ritual and supernatural names, names of medical practitioners mentioned
by R de A, medicinal plants and other substances, place-names, and
paraphrases of the incantations R de A recorded.

Fran


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Feb 22 15:55:19 2000
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 08:55:19 -0700
Subject: Article of interest
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2000.085519.0700.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

 Stiebels, Barbara
"Noun-Verb Symmetries in Nahuatl Nominalizations."
_Natural language & linguistic theory._ vol. 17 num. 4 (NOV  1999)
PG 783


I am also happy to report that the Nahuat-l web page gets approximatley
1,000 hits a month



John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                          http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/


From garatea at gaia.es  Fri Feb 25 15:17:17 2000
From: garatea at gaia.es (Jokin Garatea (by way of "John F. Schwaller"
 <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>))
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:17:17 -0700
Subject: Multilinguae International Congress
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2000.081717.0700.GARATEA@GAIA.ES>

call for papers

Multilinguae congress. A way to promote the use of ITs, Multimedia and
language industries in lesser used languages. San Sebastian, Spain 8-9
November 2000.


Papers and/or workshops (of up to 30-45 minutes duration) from
academics, software and multimedia developers and distributors, experts
in the digital distribution channel and information organisations
(including libraries, government, and the private sector) are sought for

presentation at the congress. All papers & presentations should be
designed for non-specialist audiences, and connect theory and practice.

Abstracts of up to 500 words should be sent to me directly
(garatea at gaia.es) for consideration by the committee, before end of
march (31st of March).

BACKGROUND

Within the European Union, there are more than 40 autochthonous
languages in everyday use. Of these, only 11 are official languages of
the Union: Danish, Dutch, English, Finnish, French, German, Greek,
Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and Swedish. In addition, Irish is a
"treaty language".

Of Europe's 370 million citizens, nearly 50 million speak a language
other than the official language of the State in which they live. These
other languages are an integral part of our cultural heritage. They
include some of the oldest languages in the Western world, and most of
them have rich cultural, literary and folk traditions.

Technology is simply one of the tools with which we involve as community

members in learning and using minority languages in our daily lives. It
is also a link with the culture that surrounds most of us today and
which is so attractive to the younger generations. What we would like to

present, briefly in this Congress is that new technologies have, among
others, the potential to:

* Document and promote culture and minority speech
* Help to revitalise language
* Promote the status of the language as a viable medium of communication

expand and strengthen minority language communities by creating an
audience and purpose for writing in minority languages
* Make Minority language resources available beyond educational
institutions.
* Expedite production and distribution of relevant, quality Minority
language materials and resources.
* Provide opportunities to create multimedia projects
* Excite learners to become motivated, engaged in the learning process
and producers in the target language.
* Aspects of multi-modal capability include integrated text, sound, and
graphics which are suitable for a range of learner types
* Increase student-student communication and collaboration
* Enhance and expand instructional strategies
* Build upon/enhance existing and effective pedagogy
* Promote literacy skills
* Promote computer literacy. Computers add to the study of minority
language, and computer skills that are learned transfer to other courses

and aspects of students' lives.


For all the above mentioned we must have a clear idea of the following
statements:
* The market is there. 50 million of potential European users/buyers, as

minority speakers.
* The industry is there but a bit dispersed and not very well known.

OBJECTIVES
The organisation of the Multilinguae International Congress, which is
organised by GAIA, the Telecommunications Cluster of the Basque Country
and will be co-financed by the European Commission (DG XXII), intends,
on the one side, to facilitate contacts between small and medium
European companies, technologists, content providers,  and researchers
belonging to the Multimedia and Software sector working for Minority or
endangered languages (if we are talking about IT, apart from English
almost all languages of the world), and, on the other side, to provoke
the utilisation of this Multimedia tools by the education,
administration bodies and end users coming from minority communities.

The general objective of the MULTILINGUAE congress is to develop
channels, links and activities between institutions representing similar

collectives in different cultural and geographical areas where minority
languages are spoken for interchange of experiences, best practices and
for the realisation of joint actions with a view to promoting Multimedia

Development and the Linguistic Diversity of the EU. All this, providing:

competitive expansion of the companies of the sector, the development of

new business activities, promotion of employment and innovation in the
creation of support infrastructures for the European Linguistic
Diversity and for technological and socio-economic development, by
giving incentives to investment in research, training and inter-regional

and inter-company co-operation.

Why to organise the multilinguae international congress.
It will take more than conferences to keep most European Minority
Languages from becoming extinct. If all it took was conferences, then
the minority languages would not be in the sad condition that most of
them are in now because many of them have been exposed to conferences
before. If not conferences, what then? Lots of different approaches have

been tried. These are not startling innovations; what we need is a
critical mass of committed people, and this critical mass can only be
created through continuous capillary infiltration of information and
encouragement. This conference is intended to be a part of such an
effort. It will be disseminated not only to those who attended of the
sessions, but to a much wider audience consisting of Minority and
non-Minority individuals and institutions because of its needed market
oriented approach.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Jokin Garatea                         GAIA
International Department              C\ Camino Portuetxe, 14
Email: garatea at gaia.es                Edificio Ibaeta 1
                                      20018, San Sebastian
                                      Spain
                                      Tel. +34 943 31 66 66
                                      Fax. +34 943 31 10 66
----------------------------------------------------------------


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Feb 25 17:11:15 2000
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 10:11:15 -0700
Subject: Misidentification (fwd)
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2000.101115.0700.>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:37:23 -0700 (MST)
From: Koontz John E <John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU>
To: Michael Mccafferty <mmccaffe at indiana.edu>
Subject: Misidentification

>>From the last emailed SSILA Bulletin:

Mis-identifying the colonized
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>From Timothy Dunnigan (dunni001 at maroon.tc.umn.edu) 14 Feb 2000:

A colleague has asked for one or two references dealing with indigenous
peoples of the Americas that would help him document how colonizers tend
to mis-identify the colonized.  Peter Wells is a well-known archaeologist
who studies "Iron-Age" cultures of Europe, particularly the ancient
"German" tribes.  The ethnic labels used by Caesar, Tacitus and other
early chroniclers tend to be accepted without question by those who use
their works today.  His own researches indicate that the complex cultural
divisions that existed in ancient times are inaccurately reflected in
the exogenous ethnic designations.

I told him about the naming problems that arose when Europeans attempted
to record the various cultures and languages of the Americas, and how
indigenous peoples are now attempting to reclaim names and identities
that were largely excluded from the history books.  He knew what I was
talking about because he had already read Berkhofer, and had assigned
some of his writings in a course.  I mentioned the "synonymy" sections
in the _Handbook of North American Indians_ that appear at the end of
chapters on individual tribes, but I was wondering whether readers of
the SSILA Bulletin might know of a more general discussion of this
problem, such as for Central Mexico where pejorative names used by
Tlaxcalans and Aztecs names were imposed on neighboring groups by the
Spanish.  I know the common linguistic folklore about this phenomenon,
but can anyone suggest specific articles or books?

Thanks for any help you can offer.  Replies can be addressed to me or
directly to Peter at <wells001 at maroon.tc.umn.edu>.

                                                           --Tim Dunnigan
                                                  University of Minnesota
                                             (dunni001 at maroon.tc.umn.edu)


From maffiej at spot.colorado.edu  Sat Feb 26 12:27:29 2000
From: maffiej at spot.colorado.edu (Maffie James)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 05:27:29 -0700
Subject: Forwarded message
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2000.052729.0700.>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:23:19 -0800
From: Helmut Wautischer <Helmut.Wautischer at SONOMA.EDU>
To: philosop at louisiana.edu, jcs-online at sol.zynet.net
Subject: Forwarded message

Please reply directly to
Dr. Michael  Ripinsky-Naxon
mrn at csacs.org
*********************************************

REQUEST FOR PHOTOS/SLIDES

I am in the midst of a 2- volume book project, entitled THE BOOK OF
SHAMANS.  The volume I am writing is entitled SHAMANISM IN THE  AMERICAS.
The other, SHAMANISM IN EURASIA,  is authored by Mihaly Hoppal.  Each
volume will contain over 250 illustrations.

In the last chapter, I  will address contemporary shamanism.  The issues,
among others, will include the surviving  vestiges of shamanism in North,
Central, and South America, as well as the  contemporary Western scene.
This will involve topics ranging from syncretism to curanderismo  and
healers, from ayahuasqueros and ShamanTours to neo-shamanism and
techno-shamanism. At least 20 additional illustrations can still be
incorporated into this section of the book.

Should you have any material that you think may be  suitable for inclusion
in such a project, and would like  to see it published, please, contact me
as soon as possible at mrn at csacs.org

All submitted materials will be returned, and  naturally full photo credit
acknowledgment will be given in the book.

Thank you,
________________________________
Dr. Michael  Ripinsky-Naxon
Professor
PMB 504
44489 Town Center Way, Suite D
Palm  Desert, CA  92260-2723
U.S.A.
mrn at csacs.org
*********************************************


From CCBtlevine at aol.com  Mon Feb 28 15:47:29 2000
From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (by way of "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:47:29 -0700
Subject: Az: Aztlan date
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.084729.0700.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

In a message dated 02/23/2000 10:03:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
huitzi at operamail.com writes:

<< Does the name Aztecs referred to all of the tribes under the
 domination of the Mexicas during the 1500s?

 Victor Gonzalez >>

No. I am referring only to the Aztlantlaca according to Tezozomoc
who were called by others Azteca and changed their name to Mexica
and Tenochca.  Prior to arriving in the Mexico Valley they
included the Tarascans (according to Duran) Pur=E9pecha?, and
Malinalcans.  They seem to have arrived in the Mexico Valley in
the late mid 13th century and were conquered by the Tecpanecas in
the late 13th Century. It is this specific group to which I refer.

Thomas Levine


From huitzi at operamail.com  Mon Feb 28 15:46:55 2000
From: huitzi at operamail.com (Victor Gonzalez (by way of "John F. Schwaller"
 <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>))
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:46:55 -0700
Subject: Az: Aztlan date
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.084655.0700.HUITZI@OPERAMAIL.COM>

>Is there a recent consensus about the date the Aztecs left Aztlan?

Were the Aztecs called Aztecs or were they called Mexicas when
they left Aztlan?

Does the name Aztecs referred to all of the tribes under the
domination of the Mexicas during the 1500s?

Victor Gonzalez


From CCBtlevine at aol.com  Mon Feb 28 15:46:32 2000
From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (by way of "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:46:32 -0700
Subject: Az: Aztlan date
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.084632.0700.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

Is there a recent consensus about the date the Aztecs left Aztlan?

Tezozomoc - Cr=F3nica Mexicana says 1069.
The Timetables of History by Grum says 1118.
Tibon - 1111.
Prescott - 1091.

Tom Levine


From Lawrenc846 at aol.com  Mon Feb 28 15:47:18 2000
From: Lawrenc846 at aol.com (by way of "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:47:18 -0700
Subject: Az: Aztlan date
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.084718.0700.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

In a message dated 2/23/00 1:02:05 PM, you wrote:

From:    Victor Gonzalez <huitzi at operamail.com>

>Is there a recent consensus about the date the Aztecs left Aztlan?

Were the Aztecs called Aztecs or were they called Mexicas when
they left Aztlan?

Does the name Aztecs referred to all of the tribes under the
domination of the Mexicas during the 1500s?

------------------------------>>
Aztecs is used in the early colonial sources to mean people of
Aztlan. Aztlan in this context means the mythical homeland of the
people who in historical times were known as the Mexica.  So
Aztecs (or more properly Azteca) as so used refers to the Mexica
(and others) in a mythical era before the beginning of history.

The term was revived in the 19th century (if not in the 18th
century) to mean the people of the dominant state in Central
Mexico at the arrival of the Europeans.

That state was in theory an alliance of three powers, hence
scholars sometimes call it the Empire of the Triple Alliance.
These three powers were: Tenochtitlan (Mexica), Texcoco (Acolhua)
and Tlacopan (Tepaneca).

The people of Tenochtitlan called themselves Mexica and they
refered to their capital as Mexico-Tenochtitlan.  Since they
claimed dynastic intermarriage (of their royal family) with
Culhuacan, their Empire was sometimes called a Culhua empire.

For the historical period it is confusing and, in the usual
meaning of the term, erroneous to referal to "tribes" or "tribal
society" in the Valley of Mexico.  The area was divided up among
various states and, after the fall of Tollan, was part of at
least two Empires-- that of the Tepanecs (or Tepaneca) of
Azcapotzalco and, in the last prehispanic phase, that of the
Empire of the Triple Alliance (Tenochtitlan-Texcoco-Tlacopan).

LH Feldman
Lawrenc846 at aol.com


From ochoa at scd.hp.com  Mon Feb 28 15:48:25 2000
From: ochoa at scd.hp.com (Marcos Ochoa (by way of "John F. Schwaller"
 <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>))
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:48:25 -0700
Subject: Az: Aztlan date
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.084825.0700.OCHOA@SCD.HP.COM>

> Aztecs is used in the early colonial sources to mean people of
> Aztlan. Aztlan in this context means the mythical homeland of the
> people who in historical times were known as the Mexica.  So
> Aztecs (or more properly Azteca) as so used refers to the Mexica
> (and others) in a mythical era before the beginning of history.
> ...
>
> LH Feldman

We were raised to believe Aztlan was real. Only in euro-centric
sources did I learn of the so-called myth. Where/how did this
myth-thing originate?

-Marc.


From gomezjim at netscape.net  Mon Feb 28 15:49:30 2000
From: gomezjim at netscape.net (jim gomez (by way of "John F. Schwaller"
 <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>))
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:49:30 -0700
Subject: AZ: Aztec Date (2)
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.084930.0700.GOMEZJIM@NETSCAPE.NET>

Whoops. On second thought, I should detail my original post a bit
more:

I.  M.E. Smith (1984:174) notes that the general consensus in the
histories is that most Chichimec migrations occurred at, or after,
the fall of Tollan.

The Aztlan movements are here treated here as a subset of the
Chichimec (non-Nahuatl). The Aztlaneca are Nahuatl, such as the
Culhua (of Toltec heritage) and Mexica. For relevant distinctions
on the use of these terms in the histories, see P. Carrasco (1971)
and Smith (1984:163-165). Unfortunately, the most recent study by
Smith (1996) is too general in his migration section to be of
help in tracking individual groups.

N. Davies refers to the date 1111 as the "traditional date" for
the departure of the Mexicas from Aztlan (1987:16) and in all
probability, they were not a homogeneous group. Note that Duran's
history falls under the Cronica X textual group, but the Mexica
are also mentioned in Sahagun (bk 10:195), Anales de Tlateloca
(1948:31f), and Torquemada (1969, I:78).

In the Historia de los Mexicanos por Sus Pinturas, The Mexica
(Tenochca) depart from Aztlan in 1116 (Nicholson, 1978:289). And
in the Codex Boturini, shown in many discussions of Aztec history,
also has a departure date of 1116, 1 Tecpatl (or one cycle later,
1168 as in Seler); see Nicholson's table (10.1: 1978).

II.   The dates Smith tabulates as arrival dates of various
Nahuatl groups fall after A.D. 1175 agrees with the date Davies
(1977:410-414) gives as the probable date for the fall of Tollan.
For instance, when this date is combined with the cross over of
Xolotl and his Chichimecs to Culhua in 5 Tecpatl, this is 1179.

In tabulating Nahuatl "arrival dates," Smith (184:167) considers
convergence to within a decade or so to be significant. He notes
that at least four other calendar counts in use at the time,
other than the prevalent Tenochca count (1 Acatl =3D 1519), and
is major obstacle, among others, when comparing different
histories.

Also compare with E.M. Moctezuma (1992:3), who dates the
destruction to around A.D. 1165 and calls the Aztec departure
from Tula as a liberation from the Toltecs (i.e., from probable
service, tribute, and obedience).

III.  For other year-count annuals, pictorial and textual, see
also Nicholson (1978:289). For an interesting perspective on the
historicity question and who appears to accept the main accounts
at face value, see P. Carrasco (1950,1971).

Ethnohistorians Kirchoff & J. Moreno have also been prepared to
take the general migration saga at face value and have sought to
locate Aztlan, Chicomoztoc, and Teoculuacan on the modern map (N.
Davies "Aztec Origins" BAR 402ii, 1988:659).

IV.  The archeological indicators for dating the fall of Tula
(around A.D 1200), are still of a more general nature in
comparison to dating the relatively fast paced migrations, which
is the main concern here.

See "Tula of the Toltecs: Excavations & Survey" D.M. Healen ed.
(1989, chap 3.; 247-248) and "Tula and the Toltecs" M.P. Weaver
(1993, 439-441) for discussions on the decline and final fall of
Tula with further breakdowns on the date  "A.D 1200". See also
the "Chronological Research in Central Mexico" section in AnMeso
1996.

 jim


From Lawrenc846 at aol.com  Mon Feb 28 15:48:59 2000
From: Lawrenc846 at aol.com (by way of "John F. Schwaller" <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:48:59 -0700
Subject: Az: Aztlan date
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.084859.0700.SCHWALLR@SELWAY.UMT.EDU>

In a message dated 2/25/00 1:02:07 PM, you wrote:

<<We were raised to believe Aztlan was real. Only in euro-centric
sources did I learn of the so-called myth. Where/how did this
myth-thing originate?>>

The Mexica themselves claimed that they burnt their history books
and rewrote their earlier history.  The Florentine Codex has a
statement to this effect. In other words the Mexica themselves
said it was myth.

... Then they devised the book of days, the book of years, the
count of the years, the book of dreams.  They arranged the
reckoning just as it has been kept.  And thus was time recorded
during all the time the  Tolteca, the Tepaneca, the Mexica, and
all the Chichimeca reign endured.  No longer can it be remembered,
no longer can it be investigated... The history of it was saved,
but it was burned when Itzcoatl ruled in Mexico.  A council of
rulers of Mexico took place.  They said: "It is not necessary for
all the common people to know of the writings; government will be
defamed, and this will only spread sorcery in the land..."

Or if you prefer to read it in Nahua--  Niman ic quijiocuxque, in
tonalpoalli, in xioamatl, in xippoalli, in temjc amatl.
Qujtecpanque in iuhomopix: auh ic otlaotlatoctiloc in jxquijch
cauijtl omanca tolteca tlatocaiotl, tepaneca tlatocaiotl, mexica
tlatocaiotl: ioan in jxquijch chichimeca tlatocaiotl, aocmo vel
molnamjquij, aocmo vel onmocxitoca ...   caiquac tlatlac in
tlatocat Itzcoatl, in mexico: innenonotzal mochiuh in mexica
tlatoque, quijtoque: amo monequj mochi tlacatl qujmatiz, in
tlilli, in tapalli, in tlatconj, in tlamamalonj, avilquij=E7az...


LH Feldman


From gomezjim at netscape.net  Mon Feb 28 15:49:09 2000
From: gomezjim at netscape.net (jim gomez (by way of "John F. Schwaller"
 <schwallr@selway.umt.edu>))
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:49:09 -0700
Subject: Az: Aztlan date
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.084909.0700.GOMEZJIM@NETSCAPE.NET>

On a couple of sources that may be of assistance:

M.E. Smith (1984:174) notes that the general consensus in the
histories is that most Chichimec migrations occurred at, or after,
the fall of Tollan. The dates he tabulates as arrival (founding)
dates of various Nahuatl groups fall after A.D. 1175 agrees with
the date N. Davies (1977:410-414) gives as the probable date for
the fall of Tollan. For instance, when this date is combined with
the cross over of Xolotl and his Chichimecs to Culua in 5 Tecpatl,
this is 1179.

For other year-count annuals, pictorial and textual, see also
Nicholson (1978:289). For an interesting perspective the
historicity question and who appears to accept the main accounts
at face value, see P. Carrasco (1950,1971).

The archaeological indicators for dating the fall of Tula (around
A.D. 1200) are of a more general nature, in comparison to the
relatively fast paced migrations, and perhaps better well known.

-Jim


From jrader at m-w.com  Mon Feb 28 11:44:53 2000
From: jrader at m-w.com (Jim Rader)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:44:53 +0000
Subject: Origin of "chipotle"
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.114453.0000.>

Anyone on the list with insights on the Nahuatl background of this
word?

According to Santamaria's _Diccionario de mejicanismos_, <chipotle>
is a variant of <chilpotle> (also <chilpocle> and <chilpote>), "del
mexicano <chilli>, pimiento, y <poctli>, humo."  This looks pretty
unobjectionable, though I can't find <chilpoctli> in F. Karttunen's
dictionary or any of the other very limited lexical sources on
Nahuatl I have at hand.  Also, wouldn't one expect the head of the
construction to be <chilli>, i.e, <pocchilli> [??] or <pochilli>,
since "smoke" is in effect the modifier?  Or are there a lot of
exceptions to this constituent order in Nahuatl?

I also have in my notes <xipotli> as the Nahuatl etymon of
<chipotle>, but unfortunately I no longer have the source of this
etymology.

Any ideas from listeros would be appreciated.

Jim Rader
Etymology Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Mon Feb 28 22:11:43 2000
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 17:11:43 -0500
Subject: huel yuhyan
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000222085519.00887a40@selway.umt.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2000.171143.0500.MDMORRIS@INDIANA.EDU>

Podria alguien ayudarme de traducir esta frase:  niman tlatlatlauhtique
huel yuhyan in tonatiuh

El contexto mas amplio en que tambien encuentro dificultades es:

ompa toctitoc auh yno acito yno calaquito yn tepanchantzinco niman
tlatlatlauhtique etc.


En tlatatlauhtique, tenemos sin duda, una narativa en tercera persona
plural, en acito y calaquito parece de ser tercera persona singular,
aunque supongo lo plural tambien es posible.  Supongo tambien que toctitoc
es verbo, pero si es, como llego aqui un ti- no tiene sentido para mi.

Pues, espero todos se encuentran bien en este dia lunes.

mochantzinco Atlihuetzia,

Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more
grief. Eccl 1:18

To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To
regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness.  Only when we
are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick.  The Sage is not
sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health.  TTC 71

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.