From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Sun Jan 2 01:22:37 2000 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:22:37 -0700 Subject: mokwiltonowani (mocuiltonohuani) Message-ID: What is the grammatical or semantic makeup underlying the word 'mokwiltonowani' (a rich person, 'mogul?')? Also, can somebody send me an up-to-date list of all current publishers (and self-publishers) of Nahuatl materials? From campbel at indiana.edu Sun Jan 2 03:32:10 2000 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:32:10 -0700 Subject: mokwiltonowani (mocuiltonohuani) Message-ID: The verb stem is -cuiltonoa (without the /w/), but it is undoubtedly inserted in some dialects by *general* rule (i.e., in /oa/ ---> [owa] dialects). Also, it may occur sporadically in any dialect, but I wouldn't call this "hypercorrection" because the conditions are right for it. Molina lists the following forms: (prefixes are shown in parentheses; the main entry is given in=20 conventionalized spelling; forms in {{ ... }} are Molina's original forms) =20 cen cuiltonoliztli (ne-invert.2). {{necen cuiltonoliztli}} copiosa y entera riqueza. 71m2-64-3-12-11 =20 cencuiltonoliz tlacnopilhuiliztli (ne-invert.2). {{necencuiltonoliz tlacnopilhuiliztli}} dones o mercedes copiosas y enteras de la bienauenturanza. 71m2-64-3-11-11 =20 cencuiltonoliztlacnopilhuiliztli (ne-invert.2). {{necencuiltonoliztlacnopilhuiliztli}} perpetua bienauenturan=87a de riquezas y gloria. 71m1-95-17 =20 cuiltono (te-invert.2). {{tecuiltono}} el que enriquece a otro, o cosa que enriquece a otro. 71m2-093-3-41-16 =20 cuiltonoa (mo). {{mocuiltonoa}} rico. 55m-197v-17 cuiltonoa (mo). {{mocuiltonoa}} rico. 71m1-105-18 =20 cuiltonoa (nicno). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnicno}} gozerse de algo como de fin. 55m-131v-10 cuiltonoa (nicno). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnicno}} gozarse de algo como de fin. 71m1-66-12 cuiltonoa (nicno). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnicno=3Donicnocuiltono}} fruir y gozar d= e algo. 71m2-26-4-34-5 =20 cuiltonoa (nino). {{ninocuitonoa}} abundadar en riquezas. 55m-003v-00 cuiltonoa (nino). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnino}} enrriquecerse. 55m-105r-8 cuiltonoa (nino). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnino}} gozerse como quiera. 55m-132r-10 cuiltonoa (nino). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnino}} abundar en riquezas. 71m1-2-2-1 cuiltonoa (nino). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnino}} gozarse como quiera. 71m1-66-12 cuiltonoa (nino). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnino=3Doninocuiltono}} abundar en haziend= a, o gozarse mucho. 71m2-26-4-35-5 =20 cuiltonoa (nite). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnite}} enrriquecer a otro. 55m-105r-8 cuiltonoa (nite). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnite}} enriquecer a otro. 71m1-55-10 cuiltonoa (nite). {{nitecuiltonoa}} enriquecer a otro. 71m1-55-10 cuiltonoa (nite). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnite=3Donitecuiltono}} enriquecer aotro. 71m2-26-4-36-5 =20 cuiltonoani (mo). {{mocuiltonoani}} abundoso assi. 55m-003v-00 cuiltonoani (mo). {{mocuiltonoani}} gozoso en esta manera. 55m-132r-10 cuiltonoani (mo). {{mocuiltonoani}} abundoso. 71m1-2-2-1 cuiltonoani (mo). {{mocuilto}} gozoso assi. 71m1-66-12 cuiltonoani (mo). {{mocuiltonoani}} rico. per metaphora. el que se goza mucho. 71m2-58-1-28-10 =20 cuiltonoani (te-invert.2). {{tecuiltonoani}} dador delos bienes o dela gracia. 55m-066r-4 cuiltonoani (te-invert.2). {{tecuiltonoani}} enrriquecedor. 55m-105r-8 cuiltonoani (te-invert.2). {{tecuiltonoani}} enriquecedor. 71m1-55-10 cuiltonoani (te-invert.2). {{tecuiltonoani}} enriquecedor. 71m2-093-4-01-16 =20 cuiltonoca (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonoca}} ricamente. 55m-197v-17 cuiltonoca (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonoca}} ricamente. 71m1-105-18 cuiltonoca (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonoca}} ricamente. 71m2-65-3-05-11 =20 cuiltonohua (nino). {{cuiltonoua =3Dnino}} enriquecerse. 71m1-55-10 =20 cuiltonolhuia (ninote [y el elegante es]). {{cuiltonolhuia =3Dninote}}=20 enriquecer a otro. 71m1-55-10 =20 cuiltonoliztica (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonoliztica}} abundosamente assi. 55m-003v-00 cuiltonoliztica (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonoliztica}} abundosamente. 71m1-2-2-1 cuiltonoliztica (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonoliztica}} ricamente. 71m2-65-3-06-11 =20 cuiltonoliztica (te-invert.2). {{tecuiltonoliztica}} enriquecidamente. 71m2-093-4-02-16 =20 cuiltonoliztli [perpetua riqueza] (cemmanca ne-invert.2). {{cemmanca necuiltonoliztli}} perpetua o continua cosa. 71m1-95-17 =20 cuiltonoliztli (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonoliztli}} gozo assi. 55m-132r-10 cuiltonoliztli (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonoliztli}} gozo desta manera. 71m1-66-12 cuiltonoliztli (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonoliztli}} riqueza. 71m2-65-3-07-11 =20 cuiltonoliztli (te-invert.2). {{tecuiltonoliztli}} enrriquecimiento. 55m-105r-8 cuiltonoliztli (te-invert.2). {{tecuiltonoliztli}} enriquecimiento. 71m1-55-10 cuiltonoliztli (te-invert.2). {{tecuiltonoliztli}} enriquecimiento delque enriquece a otro. 71m2-093-4-03-16 =20 cuiltonoliztli (tene-invert.2). {{tenecuiltonoliztli}} enrriquecimiento. 55m-105r-8 cuiltonoliztli (tene-invert.2). {{tenecuiltonoliztli}} enriquecimiento. 71m1-55-10 cuiltonoliztli (tene-invert.2). {{tenecuiltonoliztli}} enriquecimiento. 71m2-98-4-14-17 =20 cuiltonollani (nino-invert.1). {{ninocuiltonollani =3D=3Doninocuiltonollan}= }=20 desear ser rico yprospero. 71m2-72-1-37-12 =20 cuiltonolli (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonolli}} hazienda o riqueza. 55m-137v-11 cuiltonolli (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonolli}} riqueza. 55m-197v-17 cuiltonolli (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonolli}} riqueza. 71m1-105-19 cuiltonolli (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonolli}} riqueza. 71m2-65-3-08-11 =20 cuiltonolli (tla-invert.2). {{tlacuiltonolli}} enrriquecido. 55m-105r-8 cuiltonolli (tla-invert.2). {{tlacuiltonolli}} enrequecido. 71m1-55-10 cuiltonolli (tla-invert.2). {{tlacuiltonolli}} enriquecido. 71m2-120-1-21-20 =20 cuiltonolti (tene-invert.2). {{tenecuiltonolti}} enrriquecedor. 55m-105r-8 cuiltonolti (tene-invert.2). {{tenecuiltonolti}} enriquecedor. 71m1-55-10 cuiltonolti (tene-invert.2). {{tenecuiltonolti}} cosa que enriquece. 71m2-98-4-15-17 =20 cuiltonoltia (nitene). {{necuiltonoltia =3Dnite}} enrriquecer a otro. 55m-105r-8 cuiltonoltia (nitene). {{necuiltonoltia =3Dnite}} enriquecer a otro. 71m1-55-10 cuiltonoltia (nitene-invert.1). {{necuiltonoltia =3Dnite=3Donitecuiltonolti= }}=20 enriquecer a otro. 71m2-65-3-10-11 =20 hueya nonecuiltonol (occenca-invert.1). {{occenca ueya nonecuiltonol =3D=3Doccenca oueix nonecuiltonol}} acrecentarse mis riquezas. 71m2-74-4-32-13 =20 hueya nonecuiltonoliz (occenca-invert.2). {{occenca ueya nonecuiltonoliz}}= =20 mas valer. 55m-165v-13 hueya nonecuiltonoliz (occenca-invert.2). {{occenca veya no necuiltonoliz}} mas valer. 71m1-83-15 =20 itecencuiltonoaya in dios. {{itecencuiltonoaya in dios}} la bienauenturanza y gloria sempiterna que da nuestro se=A4or dios. 71m2-42-2-25-7 =20 necuiltonolmati (nic). {{necuiltonolmati =3Dnic}} tener o estimar algo por grandes riquezas y deleytes. 55m-197v-19 necuiltonolmati (nic). {{necuiltonolmati =3Dnic}} tener o estimar algo por grandes riquezas y deleytes. 71m1-113-20 necuiltonolmati (nic). {{necuiltonolmati =3Dnic=3Donicnecuiltonolma}} esti= mar y tener por cosa rica alguna cosa. 71m2-65-3-09-11 =20 tetecuiltonoani. {{tetecuiltonoani}} dador delos bienes espirituales y temporales. 71m1-36-6 =20 titocuiltonollani. {{titocuiltonollani =3D=3Dotitocuiltonollanque}} dessea= r ser enriquecidos y prosperados. 71m2-113-4-01-19 ************************* Some of the forms that occur in the Florentine Codex: (some forms are shown with the prefix stripped off and following a comma; others have the prefix intact because time is short and the flesh is weak.) cuiltono, mo-. rich man; he became rich. cuiltono, omo-. he enjoyed himself. cuiltonoa, mo-. he becomes rich; he enjoys; he is rich; he is wealthy; he is prosperous; she is rich; she is wealthy; they are rich; they live in abundance; they rejoice. cuiltonoa, quimo-. they enjoy it. cuiltonoa, te-. he enriches people; he gives riches to people. cuiltonoani, mo-. one who is rich; prosperous person; rich person. cuiltonoanime, mo-. those who are rich. cuiltonoaya, mo-. she prospered; they became rich; they prospered; they were wealthy. cuiltonocanectica, mo-. he pretends to be rich. cuiltonohuaya, mo-. they were rich. cuiltonoliztli, ne-. riches; richness. cuiltonolli, ne-. wealth, riches; richness. cuiltonoloya, ne-. place of wealth; there were riches. cuiltonoque, mo-. rich people. cuiltonoque, tito-. we acquired wealth. cuiltonoz, mo-. he will be rich; he will be wealthy; rich; he will become rich; he will have wealth; he will prosper; she will be rich; she will become rich; she will prosper. cuiltonozque, mo-. they will be rich; they will become rich; they will rejoice. innecuiltonol. their wealth; their riches. mocuiltonoa. he acquires abundance, he becomes prosperous; they are rich; they prosper. mocuiltonoani. rich person. necuiltonol, i-. his fortune; his wealth. necuiltonol, in-. his wealth; their wealth; their riches. necuiltonoliztzin, i-. his riches. necuiltonolli. wealth; contentment; prosperity; riches. necuiltonolo. there is wealth. necuiltonoloya. land of wealth; rich place. necuiltonoloyan. land of wealth. onmocuiltono. he rejoiced. otonmocuiltono. you became wealthy, you became prosperous. timocuiltonoa. you acquire abundance, you become prosperous. xonmocuiltono. be prosperous!. On Sat, 1 Jan 2000, Matthew Montchalin wrote: >=20 > What is the grammatical or semantic makeup underlying the word > 'mokwiltonowani' (a rich person, 'mogul?')? >=20 > Also, can somebody send me an up-to-date list of all current publishers > (and self-publishers) of Nahuatl materials? >=20 From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com Wed Jan 5 06:00:10 2000 From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 23:00:10 -0700 Subject: Day of the Dead -Question Message-ID: Dear Members, I include an article that a friend sent me from the Diario de Yucatan=20 concerning "el dia de los muertos". The thing that is puzzling, is the idea=20 that the Mayans regarded death with such fear and terror. Later in the=20 article it talks about hell. From what I've understood in my previous studie= s=20 is that the concept of "hell" was imported into indigenous thought. Can=20 anyone indicate how accurate the article is, and explain in brief if the=20 Aztec view of after life was that different from other Mesoamerican peoples.= ?=20 Thanks. Henry Vasquez Cr=F3nicas de Isla Mujeres (y II) La visi=F3n de los antiguos mayas sobre el "m=E1s all= =E1", origen de la actual tradici=F3n del D=EDa de Muertos El origen del festejo del D=EDa de Muertos viene de la =E9poca prehisp=E1nica y para conocerlo acotamos aqu=ED algunos conceptos del cronista franciscano fray Diego de Landa, quien escribi=F3: "Cre=EDan (los mayas) que despu=E9s de la muerte hab=EDa otra vida, y que =E9sta era buena o mala... Esta gente ten=EDa mucho, excesivo temor a la muerte... Era cosa de ver las l=E1stimas y llantos que por sus difuntos hac=EDan y la tristeza grande que les causaban. Llor=E1banlos de d=EDa en silencio y de noche en altos y muy dolorosos gritos... Andaban tristes muchos d=EDas y hac=EDan abstinencia y ayuno por el difunto". Contin=FAa el fraile: "Muertos, los amortajaban llen=E1ndoles la boca de ma=EDz molido y de una bebida... y con ellos algunas piedras (como jade) de las que tienen por moneda para que en la otra vida no les faltase de comer. Enterr=E1banlos dentro de sus casas o a las espaldas de ellas, ech=E1ndoles en la sepultura algunos de sus =EDdolos, y si era sacerdote algunos de sus libros". En algunas regiones mayas, si el muerto era un alto dignatario tanto su mujer como sus sirvientes eran sacrificados y enterrados con el fallecido, incluyendo sus pertenencias, como artes de labranza o cacer=EDa. Se=F1ala tambi=E9n el Padre Landa que los mayas constru=EDan =EDdolos a semejanza del difunto. A la estatuilla le hac=EDan un orificio en la parte superior de la cabeza y ah=ED depositaban las cenizas de alguna parte del cuerpo del muerto, al cual, adem=E1s, le desollaban previamente parte del cuero cabelludo y con eso cubr=EDan el orificio del =EDdolo. "Guardaban estas estatuas con mucha reverencia", agrega el religioso. Como informaci=F3n m=E1s contempor=E1nea (1935-1937), incluyamos un texto del etn=F3grafo Alfonso Villa Rojas, quien en su obra "Los elegidos de Dios" expresa: "Las almas de los muertos no se alejan enseguida de la tierra, sino que permanecen entre sus familiares llevando la vida de costumbre y sin darse cuenta de su cambio de estado". "La revelaci=F3n de lo ocurrido tiene lugar hasta el tercer d=EDa en que, estando presentes en el rezo que entonces se habr=E1 de efectuar, oyen mencionar su nombre como el=20= de la persona fallecida. Este descubrimiento les causa profunda amargura y les hace llorar sobre su fosa toda la noche. En ocasiones el llanto es escuchado por los vecinos. Al amanecer del d=EDa siguiente emprenden el viaje hacia el lugar que les corresponda". "En su otra vida, las almas reciben el premio o el castigo que ganaron con su conducta terrenal. Los mayas sustentan que, con excepci=F3n de las almas que van al infierno, todas la dem=E1s retornan anualmente a la tierra para disfrutar de una semana de vacaciones entre sus familiares. Como agasajo, es costumbre dedicarles rezos y comidas durante ese tiempo, de aqu=ED que tal costumbr= e sea conocida con el nombre de Hanal Pix=E1n o Comida de las Almas". De acuerdo con la creencia, "las primeras en hacerse presentes son las almas de los ni=F1os, las cuales llegan a la tierra en la madrugada del 31 de octubre, =E9ste es el d=EDa de los ni=F1os. Para recibirlos debidamente se les dedican a modo de desayuno ofrendas de atole nuevo (sahz=E1) y elotes sancochados (chabil-nal). Este acto tiene lugar en la iglesia y oratorios (altares) familiares... El desempe=F1o de la ceremonia queda a cargo de cualquier var=F3n que sepa el ritual correspondiente. Los familiares y personas concurrentes son obsequiadas luego de las cosas ofrendadas". "Por la tarde se repite el homenaje con ofrendas de platillos especiales, tales como gallina guisada (chacbil-cax), dulce de calabaza (cabil-kun), pedazos de sand=EDa, atole nuevo, chocolate, galletas y otras golosinas. Para compartir del regalo (matam) que se hace de estas cosas al terminarse de rezar, los vecinos se invitan mutuamente y con la abundancia de comidas y golosinas especiales el ambiente se hace festivo". "Por la noche se enciende una vela sobre cada tumba, barda o albarrada para que los =E1ngeles vean su camino. Al d=EDa siguiente, en la madrugada llegan la almas de lo= s adultos, se les reciben de modo igual con los mismos rezos; adem=E1s, sus tumbas son barridas y adornadas con flor= es de Chacsik=EDn". La flor de zempatz=FAchitl o cempas=FAchil a la que se recurre ahora no es originaria de esta regi=F3n. Y contin=FAa Villa Rojas: "Por la tarde, el homenaje s= e efect=FAa en las casas, all=ED, sobre una mesa, se improvisa un altar en el que se pone la cruz fiadora de la familia, una vela encendida y las ofrendas correspondientes para esta ocasi=F3n. La comida principal consiste en chimole de gallina o de puerco, las bebidas y golosinas que se a=F1aden son iguales a las del d=EDa anterior. Como de costumbr= e, los vecinos se obsequiar=E1n de esta ofrendas". "Por la noche no es preciso encender velas sobre sus tumbas, en virtud de que las almas de los grandes pueden ver f=E1cilmente su camino". Tanto en el d=EDa dedicado a los ni=F1os como en el de= los adultos se tiene cuidado de separar una parte de las ofrendas y colocarlas en una j=EDcara que se cuelga de un sost=E9n a la entrada de la casa para las almas que no tiene quienes se acuerden de ellas. Comenta tambi=E9n el investigador que en los siguiente= s d=EDas algunas familias muy religiosas se ocupan de rezar y hacer peque=F1as ofrendas a sus difuntos y al llegar e= l octavo d=EDa, cuando concluye la semana de vacaciones, se despide a las almas con los mismos festejos que a su llegada. Dice Villa Rojas: "El d=EDa siete de noviembre tiene lugar la despedida (ochavario) de los ni=F1os y al d=EDa siguiente, la de los grandes". "Entre las comidas que se ofrecen en ambos d=EDas se debe incluir como platillo especial el llamado chachcuah, especie de pastel relleno de pollo y coloreado de achiote, el cocimiento de este platillo se ha de hacer en el pib u horno subterr=E1neo". A grandes rasgos, =E9sta es la tradici=F3n de nuestro=20= D=EDa de Muertos, tan alterada por la inmigraci=F3n de personas con otras costumbres. Si bien es cierto que ninguna tradici=F3n permanece est=E1tica, bueno ser=EDa tratar de conservar al menos los elementos b=E1sicos del festejo, en especial por el respeto y admiraci=F3n que propios y extra=F1os tienen por la cultura maya, tan denigrada ahora hasta por quienes descendemos de tan ilustre raza. Luchar por conservar nuestras costumbres y tradiciones es tarea de todos. Es com=FAn que en algunas escuelas los alumnos sean motivo de burla por llevar apellidos mayas, porque se ignora que hay demasiadas razones para estar orgullosos del legado de un pueblo que sigue sorprendiendo al mundo por sus magn=EDficas construcciones y que a final de cuentas son s=F3lo una peque=F1a muestr= a de los notables avances de la milenaria cultura.- (Colaboraci=F3n del Sr. Fidel Villanueva Madrid, cronista de la ciudad de Isla Mujeres) From ibarrara at servidor.unam.mx Wed Jan 5 18:33:05 2000 From: ibarrara at servidor.unam.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?H-M=E9xico?= Moderadores (by)) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:33:05 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl Summer Language Institute II: Becas Message-ID: Yale University and the Title VI Consortium of New England has recently accessed funds to provide a full tuition stipend and $2,400 in living expenses to students who wish to attend the Nahuatl Summer Language Institute II at Yale University (21 June to 13 August 1999). We apologize for the lateness of this announcement but would welcome those who wish to take an intensive course in Nahuatl but for financial reasons were unable to apply. Those interested should contact Jonathan D. Amith (coordinator and co-instructor) at Jonathan.amith at yale.edu or at either of the following telephone numbers: 203/432-3197 or 203/624-5209. The application should include a letter of application and, if possible, a recommendation and/or transcript. However, given the lateness of this announcement we will be flexible in this regard. Below is a short description of the course. Further information can be obtained at the website: http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl Nahuatl Summer Language Institute II at the Yale Summer Language Institute June 21-August 13, 1999 *Intensive language training in Classical, colonial, and modern Nahuatl *three-hours per day of language instruction during an eight-week period *weekly translation workshops for direct experience with historical= documents *emphasis on the diversity of Nahuatl in order to prepare students for work in a wide range of textual materials *training in the utilization of the Copenhagen Nahuatl Dictionary Project (CoNDiP), a computerized lexicon for the study of colonial texts * utilization of course materials, lexicons, and texts developed especially for this institute *language tapes and interactive web-based and CD-ROM learning exercises * six hours of course credit from Yale University Summer Programs * Jonathan D. Amith and Una Canger, language instructors * additional seminars and intensive workshops with leading scholars in the field of Nahuatl language and culture One week-long intensive seminar with Michel Launey, a world-renowned scholar in the field of Classical Nahuatl Two two-day intensive workshops led by experts in the field of colonial and classical Nahuatl * Louise Burkhart, SUNY-Albany, on religious texts and the translation of European concepts into the Nahuatl language * Andrea Mart=EDnez, Centro de Investigaciones y Estudios Superiores en Antropolog=EDa Social, Mexico City, on the Actas de Tlaxcala * Susan Schroeder, Loyola University of Chicago, on the genre of Nahuatl-language annals and native-language texts that record an indigenous historical perspective Application procedure * open to undergraduates, graduates, and other scholars * course approved for FLAS summer language grants * limited financial assistance available to Yale students * tuition costs of $2,600 * accommodation and meal plan available * rolling admissions; space limited For application materials and further information, contact Nahuatl Summer Language Institute, Council on Latin American Studies, Yale University, P.O. Box 208206, New Haven, CT 06520-8206; call 203/432-3197; or contact the coordinator at jonathan.amith at yale.edu Co-sponsored by the Yale University Summer Language Programs and Council on Latin American Studies, the Hewlett Foundation, and the Latin American Studies Consortium of New England. Please visit our website at http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl From AscheAsh2 at aol.com Wed Jan 5 21:46:43 2000 From: AscheAsh2 at aol.com (AscheAsh2 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:46:43 -0700 Subject: info nahuat-l Message-ID: informatiom nahuat-l From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Jan 6 04:21:12 2000 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:21:12 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: Nocnihuan, I have my hand out again. A good friend of mine wants to locate the lyrics of the national anthem of Mexico in Nahuatl. I have the possibly faulty recollection of having seen them in print, but I have a verified memory failure as to where! Can someone either supply "la letra" or tell me where to look? I would appreciate it cenca miac. Tlazohcamati huel miac, Joe From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx Thu Jan 6 17:01:30 2000 From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:01:30 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: Hi Joe, There are many versions of the National Anthem in modern nahuatl. Here is a portion of what is used in some of the bilingual schools in San Luis (refrain and the first couple of lines of the first verse). I have the rest in my office, plus a version from a bilingual text from Hidalgo. I'll get them to you this afternoon. John Sullivan Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas mexko euanij ikualanka tsatsilistli xisenkaua kauayo uan tepostli uan mulinis ipan tlajkotlali kalkilistli tepostlatsitsi mitsunilpis mutlali ka xiuitl ka ijuikat musempa nemilis pakilisti tlamaket teoyo..... -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de R. Joe Campbell Enviado el: Mi�rcoles, 05 de Enero de 2000 10:24 p.m. Para: Multiple recipients of list Asunto: Mexico's national anthem Nocnihuan, I have my hand out again. A good friend of mine wants to locate the lyrics of the national anthem of Mexico in Nahuatl. I have the possibly faulty recollection of having seen them in print, but I have a verified memory failure as to where! Can someone either supply "la letra" or tell me where to look? I would appreciate it cenca miac. Tlazohcamati huel miac, Joe From scalderon at spin.com.mx Thu Jan 6 19:04:56 2000 From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:04:56 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: CORO: Mexicanos al grito de guerra el acero arribad y el bridon y retiemble en su centro la Tierra al sonoro rugir del ca�on I Ci�a, Oh Patria! tus sienes de oliva de la paz el arcangel divino que en el cielo tu eterno destino con el dedo de Dios escribio Mas si osare un extra�o enemigo profanar con su planta tu tierra piensa, Oh Patria, que el cielo un soldado en cada hijo te dio un soldado en cada hijo te dio X Patria, Patria, tus hijos te juran exhalar en tus aras su aliento si el clarin con su belico acento nos convoca a luchar con valor. Para ti las guirnaldas de olivo un recuerdo para ellos de gloria un laurel para ti de victoria un recuerdo para ellos de honor un recuerdo para ellos de honor ----- Original Message ----- From: R. Joe Campbell To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 10:23 PM Subject: Mexico's national anthem > Nocnihuan, > I have my hand out again. A good friend of mine wants to locate the > lyrics of the national anthem of Mexico in Nahuatl. I have the possibly > faulty recollection of having seen them in print, but I have a verified > memory failure as to where! Can someone either supply "la letra" or tell > me where to look? I would appreciate it cenca miac. > > > Tlazohcamati huel miac, > > Joe > > From scalderon at spin.com.mx Thu Jan 6 19:19:55 2000 From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:19:55 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: Here is the complete letter, usually only estrofas I and X are sung. Estrofa IV is now officially deleted because "el guerrero inmortal de Zempoala" is Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna also estrofa VII is unofficial because it mentions Iturbide. The music can be heard at: http://mexico.udg.mx/Historia/24-feb/himno.html CORO Mexicanos, al grito de guerra El acero aprestad y el brid�n, Y retiemble en sus centros la tierra Al sonoro rugir del ca��n. ESTROFAS I Ci�a �Oh Patria! tus sienes de oliva De la paz el arc�ngel divino, Que en el cielo tu eterno destino Por el dedo de Dios se escribi�. Mas si osare un extra�o enemigo profanar con su planta tu suelo, Piensa �Oh Patria querida! que el cielo Un soldado en cada hijo te di�. II En sangrientos combates los viste Por tu amor palpitando sus senos, Arrostrar la metralla serenos, Y la muerte o la gloria buscar. Si el recuerdo de antiguas haza�as, De tus hijos inflama la mente, Los laureles del triunfo, tu frente, Volver�n inmortales a ornar. III Como al golpe del rayo la encina Se derrumba hasta el hondo torrente La discordia vencida, impotente, A los pies del arc�ngel cay�. Ya no m�s de tus hijos la sangre se derrame en contienda de hermanos; Solo encuentre el acero en tus manos Quien tu nombre sagrado insult�. IV Del guerrero inmortal de Zempoala Te defiende la espada terrible, Y sostiene su brazo invencible Tu sagrado pend�n tricolor. El ser� del feliz mexicano en la paz y en la guerra el caudillo, Porque el supo sus armas de brillo Circundar en los campos de honor. V �Guerra, guerra sin tregua al que intente De la patria manchar los blasones! �Guerra, guerra! los patrios pendones en las olas de sangre empapad. �Guerra, guerra! En el monte, en el valle, Los ca�ones horr�sonos truenen Y los ecos sonoros resuenen Con las voces de �Uni�n! �Libertad! VI Antes, Patria, que inermes tus hijos bajo el yugo su cuello dobleguen, Tus campi�as con sangre se rieguen, Sobre sangre se estampe su pie. Y tus templos, palacios y torres se derrumben con h�rrido estruendo, Y sus ruinas existan diciendo: De mil h�roes la patria aqu� fu�. VII Si a la lid contra hueste enemiga Nos convoca la trompa guerrera, De Iturbide la sacra bandera �Mexicanos! valientes seguid. Y a los fieros bridones les sirvan Las vencidas ense�as de alfombra: Los laureles del triunfo den sombra A la frente del bravo adalid. VIII Vuelva altivo a los patrios hogares El guerrero a contar su victoria, Ostentando las palmas de gloria Que supiera en la lid conquistar. Torn�ranse sus lauros sangrientos En guirnaldas de mirtos y rosas, Que el amor de las hijas y esposas Tambi�n sabe a los bravos premiar. IX Y el que al golpe de ardiente metralla De la Patria en las aras sucumba Obtendr� en recompensa una tumba Donde brille de gloria la luz. Y de Iguala la ense�a querida A su espada sangrienta enlazada, De laurel inmortal coronada, Formar� de su fosa la cruz. X �Patria! �Patria! tus hijos te juran exhalar en tus aras su aliento, Si el clar�n con su b�lico acento Los convoca a lidiar con valor. �Para t� las guirnaldas de oliva; �Un recuerdo para ellos de gloria! �Un laurel para ti de victoria; �Un sepulcro para ellos de honor! ----- Original Message ----- From: R. Joe Campbell To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 10:23 PM Subject: Mexico's national anthem > Nocnihuan, > I have my hand out again. A good friend of mine wants to locate the > lyrics of the national anthem of Mexico in Nahuatl. I have the possibly > faulty recollection of having seen them in print, but I have a verified > memory failure as to where! Can someone either supply "la letra" or tell > me where to look? I would appreciate it cenca miac. > > > Tlazohcamati huel miac, > > Joe > > From micc at home.com Thu Jan 6 21:35:20 2000 From: micc at home.com (micc) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:35:20 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: Salvador: Thanks for the SPANISH version, but what he wanted was the song in NAHUATL It was good to know the reason certain sections are not sung anymore!!! thanks! Salvador Calder�n wrote: > > Here is the complete letter, > usually only estrofas I and X are sung. > > Estrofa IV is now officially deleted because "el guerrero inmortal de > Zempoala" is Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna > > also estrofa VII is unofficial because it mentions Iturbide. > > The music can be heard at: > http://mexico.udg.mx/Historia/24-feb/himno.html > > CORO > > Mexicanos, al grito de guerra > El acero aprestad y el brid�n, > Y retiemble en sus centros la tierra > Al sonoro rugir del ca��n. > > ESTROFAS > > I > > Ci�a �Oh Patria! tus sienes de oliva > De la paz el arc�ngel divino, > Que en el cielo tu eterno destino > Por el dedo de Dios se escribi�. > Mas si osare un extra�o enemigo > profanar con su planta tu suelo, > Piensa �Oh Patria querida! que el cielo > Un soldado en cada hijo te di�. > > II > > En sangrientos combates los viste > Por tu amor palpitando sus senos, > Arrostrar la metralla serenos, > Y la muerte o la gloria buscar. > Si el recuerdo de antiguas haza�as, > De tus hijos inflama la mente, > Los laureles del triunfo, tu frente, > Volver�n inmortales a ornar. > > III > > Como al golpe del rayo la encina > Se derrumba hasta el hondo torrente > La discordia vencida, impotente, > A los pies del arc�ngel cay�. > Ya no m�s de tus hijos la sangre > se derrame en contienda de hermanos; > Solo encuentre el acero en tus manos > Quien tu nombre sagrado insult�. > > IV > > Del guerrero inmortal de Zempoala > Te defiende la espada terrible, > Y sostiene su brazo invencible > Tu sagrado pend�n tricolor. > El ser� del feliz mexicano > en la paz y en la guerra el caudillo, > Porque el supo sus armas de brillo > Circundar en los campos de honor. > > V > > �Guerra, guerra sin tregua al que intente > De la patria manchar los blasones! > �Guerra, guerra! los patrios pendones > en las olas de sangre empapad. > �Guerra, guerra! En el monte, en el valle, > Los ca�ones horr�sonos truenen > Y los ecos sonoros resuenen > Con las voces de �Uni�n! �Libertad! > > VI > > Antes, Patria, que inermes tus hijos > bajo el yugo su cuello dobleguen, > Tus campi�as con sangre se rieguen, > Sobre sangre se estampe su pie. > Y tus templos, palacios y torres > se derrumben con h�rrido estruendo, > Y sus ruinas existan diciendo: > De mil h�roes la patria aqu� fu�. > > VII > > Si a la lid contra hueste enemiga > Nos convoca la trompa guerrera, > De Iturbide la sacra bandera > �Mexicanos! valientes seguid. > Y a los fieros bridones les sirvan > Las vencidas ense�as de alfombra: > Los laureles del triunfo den sombra > A la frente del bravo adalid. > > VIII > > Vuelva altivo a los patrios hogares > El guerrero a contar su victoria, > Ostentando las palmas de gloria > Que supiera en la lid conquistar. > Torn�ranse sus lauros sangrientos > En guirnaldas de mirtos y rosas, > Que el amor de las hijas y esposas > Tambi�n sabe a los bravos premiar. > > IX > > Y el que al golpe de ardiente metralla > De la Patria en las aras sucumba > Obtendr� en recompensa una tumba > Donde brille de gloria la luz. > Y de Iguala la ense�a querida > A su espada sangrienta enlazada, > De laurel inmortal coronada, > Formar� de su fosa la cruz. > > X > > �Patria! �Patria! tus hijos te juran > exhalar en tus aras su aliento, > Si el clar�n con su b�lico acento > Los convoca a lidiar con valor. > �Para t� las guirnaldas de oliva; > �Un recuerdo para ellos de gloria! > �Un laurel para ti de victoria; > �Un sepulcro para ellos de honor! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: R. Joe Campbell > To: Multiple recipients of list > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 10:23 PM > Subject: Mexico's national anthem > > > Nocnihuan, > > I have my hand out again. A good friend of mine wants to locate the > > lyrics of the national anthem of Mexico in Nahuatl. I have the possibly > > faulty recollection of having seen them in print, but I have a verified > > memory failure as to where! Can someone either supply "la letra" or tell > > me where to look? I would appreciate it cenca miac. > > > > > > Tlazohcamati huel miac, > > > > Joe > > > > From Kexa14 at aol.com Fri Jan 7 02:09:26 2000 From: Kexa14 at aol.com (Kexa14 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 19:09:26 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl Summer Language Institute II: Becas Message-ID: In a message dated 00-01-05 13:33:50 EST, you write: << Jonathan.amith at yale.edu >> My name is Lisa Gracia Subia I am writing to you in responce to the letter I received, I am a single mother of three and can not afford to attend school, I however go to librarys and use the net to find anything I can on nahuatl language, so that I can learn it and teach it to my children. I would greatly appreciate it if I could obtain the books and tapes or any of the educational materials that may be purchased so that I can learn nahuatl. If it is at all possible. I live in Oregon and my aol address is kexa14 at aol.com , my home number is 503 659-7482, I thank you, and hope to hear from you soon. From Kexa14 at aol.com Fri Jan 7 02:12:18 2000 From: Kexa14 at aol.com (Kexa14 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 19:12:18 -0700 Subject: info nahuat-l Message-ID: I was for some reason unable to receive the e-mail you sent please retry sending it in another format, I greatly appreciate all nahuatl information,educational reading material, or any thing nahuatl. than you From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx Fri Jan 7 04:34:34 2000 From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:34:34 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: Joe, I can't find the rest of the San Luis version, but here is the version from the elementary school bilingual text, "Nahuatlajtoli tlen Uaxtekapaj tlali. Lengua N�huatl, de la regi�n huasteca. Segundo ciclo", published by the Secretar�a de Educaci�n P�blica in 1995. Anauak Kuikayotl (Kuikatl) Mexko euanij ma tiyakaj yaoyokan xijkualtlali kauayoj uan tepostli ma kakisti ipan tlajko tlaltipaktli san ontlatsinis tepostlatopontli. (1 Kuikayotsij) !Anauak tlali!, ximokuaxochiyoti pakilistli toteko mitsaxkatij ipan iluikatl mosenpanemilis toteko imajpil kiijkuiloj. Tla moketsas se yaotl uan kinekis motlaltipak ipan mokejketsas, xiyolmajto, anauak, tlaltipaktli se yaotlakatl mitsaxkatijtok. (Kuikatl) (4 Kuikayotsij) !Anauak!, mokoneuaj moneltemakaj motlaixpantenoj kitlaliaj inajuiyaka, tla tlapitstli yaoyotl kintenkixtia kintilana ma neltlateiukij. !Xochikoskatl timitsaxkatiaj! !Tikinmakaj neskayotlanilistli! !Tlatlanini ejepajtli tikinmakaj! !Tikinkauaj mijkatlatsaktipaj! John Sullivan Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de R. Joe Campbell Enviado el: Mi�rcoles, 05 de Enero de 2000 10:24 p.m. Para: Multiple recipients of list Asunto: Mexico's national anthem Nocnihuan, I have my hand out again. A good friend of mine wants to locate the lyrics of the national anthem of Mexico in Nahuatl. I have the possibly faulty recollection of having seen them in print, but I have a verified memory failure as to where! Can someone either supply "la letra" or tell me where to look? I would appreciate it cenca miac. Tlazohcamati huel miac, Joe From Kexa14 at aol.com Fri Jan 7 05:00:15 2000 From: Kexa14 at aol.com (Kexa14 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 22:00:15 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: i thank you greatly!!!!!! From Kexa14 at aol.com Fri Jan 7 05:02:59 2000 From: Kexa14 at aol.com (Kexa14 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 22:02:59 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: where can i get this elemantary school bilingual text that contains the nahuatl language in it? From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Jan 7 07:46:14 2000 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:46:14 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: John, Thanks a million!! Of course, this does little to encourage my sense of responsibility... Now I can continue my ethic of "extraviamiento" with impunity. Joe On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, John Sullivan Hendricks wrote: > Joe, > =09I can't find the rest of the San Luis version, but here is the version= from > the elementary school bilingual text, "Nahuatlajtoli tlen Uaxtekapaj tlal= i. > Lengua N=E1huatl, de la regi=F3n huasteca. Segundo ciclo", published by = the > Secretar=EDa de Educaci=F3n P=FAblica in 1995. >=20 From Kexa14 at aol.com Fri Jan 7 08:11:53 2000 From: Kexa14 at aol.com (Kexa14 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 01:11:53 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: im on aol and as far as i know aol doesnt understand java which i assume this was written in. So if its possible can it be written in another way so that i can recieve this?? Please??? From jonathan.amith at yale.edu Tue Jan 11 08:29:00 2000 From: jonathan.amith at yale.edu (Jonathan Amith) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 01:29:00 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl Summer Language Institute II: Becas Message-ID: Dear Lisa, Thank you for your enquiry. Some material is on the net at http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl look at the links to dictionary and lessons and exercises. I'd be glad to help in any way I can. I might have some materials here at home, too. By the way, I live in Dallas, near Salem, so we might be neighbors. Please feel free to call at 503/831-3151. Sorry for this brief note, hopefully we'll be in touch. Jonathan On Thu, 6 Jan 2000 Kexa14 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 00-01-05 13:33:50 EST, you write: > > << Jonathan.amith at yale.edu >> > My name is Lisa Gracia Subia I am writing to you in responce to the letter I > received, > I am a single mother of three and can not afford to attend school, I however > go to librarys and use the net to find anything I can on nahuatl language, so > that I can learn it and teach it to my children. I would greatly appreciate > it if I could obtain the books and tapes or any of the educational materials > that may be purchased so that I can learn nahuatl. If it is at all possible. > I live in Oregon and my aol address is kexa14 at aol.com , my home number is > 503 659-7482, I thank you, and hope to hear from you soon. > From scalderon at spin.com.mx Mon Jan 17 16:59:57 2000 From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:59:57 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: This is the last message I received from the list. Why isn't working anymore. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 2:15 AM Subject: Re: Mexico's national anthem > im on aol and as far as i know aol doesnt understand java which i assume this > was written in. So if its possible can it be written in another way so that i > can recieve this?? Please??? > From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu Mon Jan 17 17:28:23 2000 From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:28:23 -0700 Subject: nepantla Message-ID: In the preface to _The Darker Side of the Renaissance_, Walter Mignolo states that the word "nepantla" was "coined by Nahuatl speakers in New Spain during the sixteenth century to designate the inter-space between cultures" (xvi). I am familiar with the word, but I was not aware that it was coined in the sixteenth century. Mignolo doesn't give any source for this claim. Does anyone have any information either supporting or negating it? Thanks, Galen From dfrye at umich.edu Mon Jan 17 18:51:49 2000 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:51:49 -0700 Subject: nepantla Message-ID: Mignolo may have gotten this idea from an article that Klor de Alva wrote, lo these many years ago -- I think it was his contribution to _The Inca and Aztec states, 1400-1800_ ("Spiritual conflict and accommodation in New Spain: toward a typology of Aztec responses to Christianity"). Mignolo cites some other things by Klor de Alva from the same period, and I am sure he is familiar with this article. There is also poet Pat Mora's book, _Nepantla: Essays from the Land in the Middle_ (1993). I'm sure neither of them claim that the word was coined in the 16th c, but rather that it was first used then to refer to the betwixt-and-betweenness of Nahuas dealing with their conquered society. On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Galen Brokaw wrote: > > In the preface to _The Darker Side of the Renaissance_, Walter Mignolo > states that the word "nepantla" was "coined by Nahuatl speakers in New > Spain during the sixteenth century to designate the inter-space between > cultures" (xvi). > I am familiar with the word, but I was not aware that it was coined in > the sixteenth century. Mignolo doesn't give any source for this claim. > Does anyone have any information either supporting or negating it? > Thanks, > Galen > From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Mon Jan 17 21:24:30 2000 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:24:30 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, [iso-8859-1] Salvador Calder=F3n wrote: |This is the last message I received from the list. Why isn't working |anymore. I remember the one you quoted. From XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com Mon Jan 17 22:26:09 2000 From: XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com (XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 15:26:09 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: Hello, all! I'm a longtime lurker and lapsed subscriber back on the list, this time with a new fiction project under way and seeking Nahua lore about Fireflies. In Jill Leslie McKeever Furst's chapter on "The Glowing Ihiyotl" in _The Natural History of the Soul in Ancient Mexico_ she writes a bit about the "Spirit as a Gaseuous, Glowing Entity" and relates tales that describe some Nahua souls as being firefly-like in that they glow and float and mysteriously ficker, like lanterns, meteors or shooting stars. Furst relates a belief among the people in Sierra Norte de Puebla that the tonalli is interlaced with a shadow-soul (ecahuil) that is "a little like air [and] no more, it is like a little lightening flash [and] no more, it is like a little ray of light." Lights like this are feared to be shapeshifting sorcerers, and further north across the border, are associated with the spirits of excpetionally powerful people. A few tales tell of a body's soul actually transforming into a firefly and flying away upon death. I can't find much else on the natural history and mythic lore for Fireflies as they appeared the Nahua worldview, either as souls, sorcerers, or simply humble insects, and a keyword search of the Nahtuat-L archives bring up only glosses for the word. Beyond McKeever Furst, I've combed my standard bedside texts by Soustelle, Leon-Portilla, Bierhorst, Caso, Clendinnen, and even extensively on the Web. Not a word. Yet my curiosity remains. :-) Any other lore, glyphs, anecdotes or analyses of the Firefly-as-insect or Firefly-as-metaphor in Nahua thought would be welcomed. Best, Alison King From ECOLING at aol.com Tue Jan 18 06:15:16 2000 From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 23:15:16 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: Alison King: I'd love copies of any good references you receive on this, I'm collecting info on pre-columbian insects fairly broadly. Lloyd Anderson Ecological Linguistics From rude at leland.Stanford.EDU Tue Jan 18 06:19:08 2000 From: rude at leland.Stanford.EDU (Rudiger V. Busto) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 23:19:08 -0700 Subject: nepantla Message-ID: The term appears in Diego Duran's work referring to the predicament of religious "inbetweenness" by his Christianized Nahuas. The term has received new attention by Chicanos/as as another way to refer to the"borderlands" identity of life "between the hyphen". I am currently completing a chapter for a book on Chicano religions that traces the nepantla idea up through the recent Chicano uses -- any other references to early uses of the term would be, certainly welcome. >In the preface to _The Darker Side of the Renaissance_, Walter Mignolo >states that the word "nepantla" was "coined by Nahuatl speakers in New >Spain during the sixteenth century to designate the inter-space between >cultures" (xvi). >I am familiar with the word, but I was not aware that it was coined in >the sixteenth century. Mignolo doesn't give any source for this claim. >Does anyone have any information either supporting or negating it? >Thanks, >Galen ************************************************* Rudy V. Busto rude at leland.stanford.edu Assistant Professor 415.552.0257 Religious Studies Stanford University (ON LEAVE 1999-2000) From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Jan 18 18:42:29 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:42:29 -0700 Subject: nepantla Message-ID: Duran's authorship is correcrt. The term was made popular by Miguel Leon Portilla in an article he did many years ago on Nahua under the Spanish. I don't have the reference, right at hand, but will look for it. J. F. Schwaller John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu Tue Jan 18 19:33:42 2000 From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:33:42 -0700 Subject: nepantla Message-ID: Thanks to those who replied to my request. For those interested, I will list here the references for the articles mentioned by David and Fritz. The Klor de Alva article has a section on "neplantism" and he cites Leon-Portilla's article and a paragraph from Duran. Klor de Alva, Jorge. "Spiritual Conflict and Accomodation in New Spain: Toward a Typology of Aztec Responses to Christianity." _The Inca and Aztec States, 1400-1800_. New York: Academic Press. 345-366. Leon-Portilla, Miguel. "Testimonios nahuas sobre la conquista espiritual." _Estudios de Cultura Nahuatl_ 11 (1974): 11-36. Thanks, Galen From Kexa14 at aol.com Tue Jan 18 19:36:36 2000 From: Kexa14 at aol.com (Kexa14 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:36:36 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: well if you remember what i quoated, then it must mean something, send the info and not in java so, we, who want to learn can. From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Tue Jan 18 21:18:36 2000 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:18:36 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2000 Kexa14 at aol.com wrote: |well if you remember what i quoated, then it must mean something, send |the info and not in java so, we, who want to learn can. The problem being, I already deleted it from my emailbox... Now, if this were available as a newsgroup on Usenet, we wouldn't be running into this problem. Where our 'browsers' are found wanting, we could always look stuff up at http://www.deja.com or http://www.remarq.com (sigh)... Anyway, maybe somebody (or maybe me?) will submit at RFD for the creation of a newsgroup named sci.lang.nahuatl ??? From gingeriw at stjohns.edu Tue Jan 18 23:33:38 2000 From: gingeriw at stjohns.edu (Gingerich Willard P.) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:33:38 -0700 Subject: nepantla Message-ID: I believe the original Leon-Portilla reference is "Testimonios nahuas sobre la conquista espiritual," Estudios de cultura nahuatl, 11 (1974): 11-36. Willard Gingerich Associate Provost for Graduate Studies Research & International Programs St. John's University 8000 Utopia Pkwy Jamaica, NY 11349 718-990-1442 FAX 718-990-1894 gingeriw at stjohns.edu -----Original Message----- From: John F. Schwaller [SMTP:schwallr at selway.umt.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 1:46 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: nepantla Duran's authorship is correcrt. The term was made popular by Miguel Leon Portilla in an article he did many years ago on Nahua under the Spanish. I don't have the reference, right at hand, but will look for it. J. F. Schwaller John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com Wed Jan 19 03:41:52 2000 From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:41:52 -0700 Subject: Segunda vez: Dia de muertos Message-ID: Dear Members, I am sending this message once again because nobody responded the first=20 time. I=92ve taken the accents and other diacritical marks out of the Spanis= h=20 text because two members said that on their computers the accents had been=20 converted to hard-to-understand symbols. I realize that it is somewhat=20 cumbersome to read Spanish without the diacritical marks, but it=92s a=20 trade-off, better cumbersome than unreadable.(Original message below) I include an article that a friend sent me from the Diario de Yucatan=20 concerning "el dia de los muertos". The thing that is puzzling, is the idea=20 that the Mayans regarded death with such fear and terror. Later in the=20 article it talks about hell. From what I've understood in my previous studie= s=20 is that the concept of "hell" was imported into indigenous thought. Can=20 anyone indicate how accurate the article is, and explain in brief if the=20 Aztec view of after life was that different from other Mesoamerican peoples.= ?=20 Thanks. Henry Vasquez Cronicas de Isla Mujeres (y II) =20 La vision de los antiguos mayas sobre el "mas alla", origen de la actual tradicion del Dia de Muertos =20 El origen del festejo del Dia de Muertos viene de la epoca prehispanica y para conocerlo acotamos aqui algunos conceptos del cronista franciscano fray Diego de Landa, quien escribio: "Creian (los mayas) que despues de la muerte habia otra vida, y que esta era buena o mala... Esta gente tenia mucho, excesivo temor a la muerte... Era cosa de ver las lastimas y llantos que por sus difuntos hacian y la tristeza grande que les causaban. Llorabanlos de dia en silencio y de noche en altos y muy dolorosos gritos... Andaban tristes muchos dias y hacian abstinencia y ayuno por el difunto". =20 Continua el fraile: "Muertos, los amortajaban llenandoles la boca de maiz molido y de una bebida... y con ellos algunas piedras (como jade) de las que tienen por moneda para que en la otra vida no les faltase de comer. Enterrabanlos dentro de sus casas o a las espaldas de ellas, echandoles en la sepultura algunos de sus idolos, y si era sacerdote algunos de sus libros". =20 En algunas regiones mayas, si el muerto era un alto dignatario tanto su mujer como sus sirvientes eran sacrificados y enterrados con el fallecido, incluyendo sus pertenencias, como artes de labranza o caceria. =20 Senala tamben el Padre Landa que los mayas construian idolos a semejanza del difunto. A la estatuilla le hacian un orificio en la parte superior de la cabeza y ahi depositaban las cenizas de alguna parte del cuerpo del muerto, al cual, ademas, le desollaban previamente parte del cuero cabelludo y con eso cubrian el orificio del idolo. =20 "Guardaban estas estatuas con mucha reverencia", agrega el religioso. =20 Como informaci=F3n mas contemporanea (1935-1937), incluyamos un texto del etnografo Alfonso Villa Rojas, quien en su obra "Los elegidos de Dios" expresa: "Las almas de los muertos no se alejan enseguida de la tierra, sino que permanecen entre sus familiares llevando la vida de costumbre y sin darse cuenta de su cambio de estado". =20 "La revelacion de lo ocurrido tiene lugar hasta el tercer dia en que, estando presentes en el rezo que entonces se habra de efectuar, oyen mencionar su nombre como el de la persona fallecida= .=20 Este descubrimiento les causa profunda amargura y les hace llorar sobre su=20 fosa toda la noche. En ocasiones el llanto es escuchado por los vecinos. Al=20 amanecer del dia siguiente emprenden el viaje hacia el lugar que les corresponda". =20 "En su otra vida, las almas reciben el premio o el castigo que ganaron con su conducta terrenal. Los mayas sustentan que, con=20 excepcion de las almas que van al infierno, todas la demas retornan=20 anualmente a la tierra para disfrutar de una semana de vacaciones entre sus=20 familiares. Como agasajo, es costumbre dedicarles rezos y comidas durante es= e=20 tiempo, de aqui que tal costumbre sea conocida con el nombre de Hanal Pixan=20= o=20 Comida de las Almas". De acuerdo con la creencia, "las primeras en hacerse=20 presentes son las almas de los ninos, las cuales llegan a la tierra en la=20 madrugada del 31 de octubre, este es el dia de los ninos. Para recibirlos=20 debidamente se les dedican a modo de desayuno ofrendas de atole nuevo (sahza= )=20 y elotes sancochados (chabil-nal). Este acto tiene lugar en la iglesia y=20 oratorios (altares) familiares... El desempe=F1o de la ceremonia queda a cargo de cualquier varon que sepa el ritual correspondiente. Los familiares y personas concurrentes son=20 obsequiadas luego de las cosas ofrendadas". =20 "Por la tarde se repite el homenaje con ofrendas de platillos=20 especiales, tales como gallina guisada (chacbil-cax), dulce de calabaza=20 (cabil-kun), pedazos de sandia, atole nuevo, chocolate, galletas y otras=20 golosinas. Para compartir del regalo (matam) que se hace de estas cosas al terminarse de rezar, los vecinos se invitan mutuamente y con la=20 abundancia de comidas y golosinas especiales el ambiente se hace festivo". "Por la noche se enciende una vela sobre cada tumba, barda o albarrada= =20 para que los angeles vean su camino. Al dia siguiente, en la madrugada llega= n=20 la almas de los adultos, se les reciben de modo igual con los mismos rezos;=20 ademas, sus tumbas son barridas y adornadas con flores de Chacsikin". La flor de zempatzuchitl o cempasuchil a la que se recurre ahora no es= =20 originaria de esta region. Y continua Villa Rojas: "Por la tarde, el homenaj= e=20 se efectua en las casas, alli, sobre una mesa, se improvisa un altar en el=20 que se pone la cruz fiadora de la familia, una vela encendida y las ofrendas= =20 correspondientes para esta ocasion. La comida principal consiste en chimole=20 de gallina o de puerco, las bebidas y golosinas que se a=F1aden son iguales a las del d=EDa anterior. Como de costumbre, los vecinos se=20 obsequiar=E1n de esta ofrendas". "Por la noche no es preciso encender velas sobre sus tumbas, en=20 virtud de que las almas de los grandes pueden ver facilmente su camino". Tanto en el dia dedicado a los ninos como en el de los adultos se tiene=20 cuidado de separar una parte de las ofrendas y colocarlas en una jicara que=20 se cuelga de un sosten a la entrada de la casa para las almas que no tiene quienes se acuerden de ellas. Comenta tambien el investigador que en los siguientes dias algunas=20 familias muy religiosas se ocupan de rezar y hacer pequenas ofrendas a sus=20 difuntos y al llegar el octavo dia, cuando concluye la semana de vacaciones,= =20 se despide a las almas con los mismos festejos que a su llegada. Dice Villa Rojas: "El dia siete de noviembre tiene lugar la despedid= a=20 (ochavario) de los ninos y al dia siguiente, la de los grandes". "Entre las=20 comidas que se ofrecen en ambos dias se debe incluir como platillo especial=20 el llamado chachcuah, especie de pastel relleno de pollo y coloreado de=20 achiote, el cocimiento de este platillo se ha de hacer en el pib u horno=20 subterraneo". A grandes rasgos, esta es la tradicion de nuestro Dia de Muertos, tan= =20 alterada por la inmigracion de personas con otras costumbres. Si bien es=20 cierto que ninguna tradicion permanece estatica, bueno seria tratar de=20 conservar al menos los elementos basicos del festejo, en especial por el=20 respeto y admiracion que propios y extranos tienen por la cultura maya, tan=20 denigrada ahora hasta por quienes descendemos de tan ilustre raza. Luchar por conservar nuestras costumbres y tradiciones es tarea de=20 todos. Es comun que en algunas escuelas los alumnos sean motivo de burla por= =20 llevar apellidos mayas, porque se ignora que hay demasiadas razones para=20 estar orgullosos del legado de un pueblo que sigue sorprendiendo al mundo po= r=20 sus magnificas construcciones y que a final de cuentas son solo una pequena=20 muestra de los notables avances de la milenaria cultura.- (Colaboracion del Sr. Fidel Villanueva Madrid, cronista de la ciudad de Isla Mujeres) From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jan 19 15:03:24 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:03:24 -0700 Subject: CIC Foreign Language Enhancement Program scholarships (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- The Committee on Institutional Cooperation (CIC) Foreign Language Enhancement Program (FLEP) is offering scholarships for summer language study during the summer, 1999. The program encourages graduate students to take advantage of infrequently taught languages not available to them at their home universities. This summer thirty (30) scholarships of up to $2,000 will be awarded to cover living expenses while attending another CIC host institution. Applicants must be pursuing a graduate degree at one of the twelve (12) participating CIC institutions listed below and can travel to any CIC institution. FLEP recipients may also apply for the Traveling Scholar Program which enables them to attend a host CIC institution while paying tuition and fees at their home university. This program is helpful for students eligible for summer fee waivers on their home campus. Students may NOT apply for a language at your home institution. The FLEP application deadline is FEBRUARY 15, 2000. FLEP applications and Traveling Scholar Program applications are available from Jody Smith, Research and the University Graduate School, Kirkwood Hall 111, Bloomington, IN 47405 (phone 855-4010 or e-mail josmith at indiana.edu). A list of foreign languages expected to be taught at the CIC universities in the summer of 1999 will be available from Mrs. Smith in late January. You may also obtain information regarding either program via World Wide Web at http://www.cic.uiuc.edu/. Participating universities: University of Chicago, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Indiana University, University of Iowa, University of Michigan, Michigan State University, University of Minnesota, Northwestern University, The Ohio State University, Pennsylvania State University, Purdue University, and University of Wisconsin-Madison. From ECOLING at aol.com Wed Jan 19 16:04:01 2000 From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:04:01 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl-Cora/Huichol separation Message-ID: Someone asked me privately, and rather than look up in some reference work, I thought I should ask this list for the best current views. At what date is Nahuatl supposed to have separated from its closest relatives in Uto-Aztecan, Cora and Huichol? Would that have been in the location where Cora and Huichol were at time of contact with Europeans? Or did they separate earlier, and both continue south along the Cordillera to their positions more or less at time of contact with Europeans? Or some other scenario? I assume Cora and Huichol are still regarded as the closest relatives of Nahuatl? Thanks for any enlightening comments, either on the list or privately. Sincerely yours, Lloyd Anderson From XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com Wed Jan 19 23:31:03 2000 From: XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com (XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:31:03 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: If it helps spark anyone's memory or interest on the subject of glowing firefly-souls, I did eventually find a line drawing on Thomas Frederiksen's Aztec Resource Center site of http://northcoast.com/~spdtom/graphics/a-121.jpg "OMETECUHTLI - The creator God shown placing the fire butterfly, or soul, into a skull. Black and white line drawing from the codex Fejervary-Mayar." I am not familiar with this codex -- is anyone here? It most definitely looks like a butterfly rather than firefly beetle because of the curly "tongue" and "antennae", but it doesn't have very butterfly-like wings in compare to nature or the Toltec-style butterfly shape. Thoughts? Alison King From PABLO_CRUZ at prodigy.net Thu Jan 20 03:35:18 2000 From: PABLO_CRUZ at prodigy.net (Paul Senzee) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:35:18 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: Hi! I've been a lurker also for a long time, I have a huge fascination with nahua due to some experiences I had in the Sierra Norte de Puebla while I lived there for a few years, a few years ago. In talking with some of the inhabitants of some of the tinier villages of that area, I learned a few words - however, hardly enough to contribute anything of use to this list. Nevertheless, I lived for a while in Metepec, small village north of Atlixco, it seemed the most mystical place I've ever been. They seemed to have a huge fascination with little lights around the volcano Popocatepetl. Most said they were UFOs, others said they were other various manifestations. My point is, could this superstition, what seemed to me to be extreme fascination with these lights, whatever they were, be related? By the way, for a while I've been interested in collaborative literature and other collaborative arts via the internet. I'm a software guy by trade and we've recently debuted (although it's not really yet complete) a website devoted to collaborating in the creation of literature and other arts. It's at http://www.fragrantvagrant.com I would *love* to see a collaborative work in or about nahua, as some of the knowledge on this list is phenomenal!! Anyhow it's a thought. Tell me what you all think - I'm at pablo_cruz at prodigy.net. Paul Senzee -----Original Message----- From: XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Monday, January 17, 2000 4:30 PM Subject: Firefly Lore >Hello, all! > >I'm a longtime lurker and lapsed subscriber back on the list, this time with >a new fiction project under way and seeking Nahua lore about Fireflies. > >In Jill Leslie McKeever Furst's chapter on "The Glowing Ihiyotl" in _The >Natural History of the Soul in Ancient Mexico_ she writes a bit about the >"Spirit as a Gaseuous, Glowing Entity" and relates tales that describe some >Nahua souls as being firefly-like in that they glow and float and >mysteriously ficker, like lanterns, meteors or shooting stars. > >Furst relates a belief among the people in Sierra Norte de Puebla that the >tonalli is interlaced with a shadow-soul (ecahuil) that is "a little like air >[and] no more, it is like a little lightening flash [and] no more, it is like >a little ray of light." Lights like this are feared to be shapeshifting >sorcerers, and further north across the border, are associated with the >spirits of excpetionally powerful people. A few tales tell of a body's soul >actually transforming into a firefly and flying away upon death. > >I can't find much else on the natural history and mythic lore for Fireflies >as they appeared the Nahua worldview, either as souls, sorcerers, or simply >humble insects, and a keyword search of the Nahtuat-L archives bring up only >glosses for the word. Beyond McKeever Furst, I've combed my standard bedside >texts by Soustelle, Leon-Portilla, Bierhorst, Caso, Clendinnen, and even >extensively on the Web. Not a word. Yet my curiosity remains. :-) > >Any other lore, glyphs, anecdotes or analyses of the Firefly-as-insect or >Firefly-as-metaphor in Nahua thought would be welcomed. > >Best, >Alison King > From XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com Thu Jan 20 06:29:06 2000 From: XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com (XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:29:06 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: In a message dated 1/19/00 8:36:18 PM, PABLO_CRUZ at prodigy.net writes: << Nevertheless, I lived for a while in Metepec, small village north of Atlixco, it seemed the most mystical place I've ever been. They seemed to have a huge fascination with little lights around the volcano Popocatepetl. Most said they were UFOs, others said they were other various manifestations. My point is, could this superstition, what seemed to me to be extreme fascination with these lights, whatever they were, be related? >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Glad to hear another report from the field. :-) This meshes neatly with what J.L. McKeever Furst writes about of people in the same region, whose "major worry is the witch, or nahualli, a terrifying and malevolent being whose activities are known in catastrophies, misfortune and illnesses, whose lanterns dance along trails at night." Lights are also associated with "the tlahuepoches, or dangerous nocturnal birds that suck blood from adults (but prefer the blood of infants) through lo ng beaks they use as suction tubes." .... "In Alta, these fearsome tlahuepoches either carry lights or emit a glow themselves." (Quotes pulled from Jill Leslie McKeever Furst in _The Natural History of the Soul in Ancient Mexico_ p 156-7) I located a supernaturalistic rendering of what can only be a genuine FIREFLY INSECT in the Codex Nuttall this afternoon. Will upload a temporary scan of it to my website later tonight for comment and interpretation of its placement in relation to the rest of what's around it. Inspired by the fire-butterly-placement illustration I found today on Frederiksen's site, I'm also re-reading about the phenomenon of "fire-drilling" the tonalli into the body, which is much like a spark that glows. Any other comments on this phenomenon are welcome. Thinking aloud.... Alison King From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Thu Jan 20 07:17:45 2000 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:17:45 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com wrote: |In a message dated 1/19/00 8:36:18 PM, PABLO_CRUZ at prodigy.net writes: | |<< Nevertheless, I lived for a while in Metepec, small village north of |Atlixco, it seemed the most mystical place I've ever been. They seemed |to have a huge fascination with little lights around the volcano |Popocatepetl. Most said they were UFOs, others said they were other |various manifestations. | |My point is, could this superstition, what seemed to me to be extreme |fascination with these lights, whatever they were, be related? >> I have had the good fortune of hiking around Mt. St. Helens in 1982 and 1983 (technically within the 5 mile "red" zone, where I could have been ticketed) at midnight, and through 3 am. Yes, when the hot air of the volcano rises up into the cold air, lights appear. They are usually ill-defined sheets and balls of flashing light, very similar to lightening, sometimes reminiscent of fluorescent lighting behind a shroud of clouds or fog, and usually but not always without the accompaniment of crisk crackling thunder. :) Quite a sight to see. My theory is that the difference in temperatures results in wholesale electrical disturbances, maybe not so well-defined as to be "lightning" but definitely luminescent in origin. I was only about 2,000 feet from the wonderful night-phenomena! A great sight to see, and which I have not seen since. It was not until I traveled to the Midwest that I finally got to see my first fireflies, just about the only thing I miss from my brief stay in Michigan. (Sigh!) From dfrye at umich.edu Thu Jan 20 15:54:11 2000 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:54:11 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: Likewise in Mexquitic, SLP (one of the former Tlaxcalan settlements in the north, where Nahuatl was spoken until 1850 or so). "Brujas" (there is no nahuatl word used) are seen as lights dancing along the hills at night, and are said to come into houses to suck people dry -- why else do old people look so wrinkled, after all? But in the three years I lived in Mexquitic I don't recall ever seeing a firefly -- too high & dry, I suppose. The "naturalistic" explanation of the lights would probably be lightning flashes. > This meshes neatly with what J.L. McKeever Furst writes about of people in > the same region, whose "major worry is the witch, or nahualli, a terrifying > and malevolent being whose activities are known in catastrophies, misfortune > and illnesses, whose lanterns dance along trails at night." > Lights are also associated with "the tlahuepoches, or dangerous nocturnal > birds that suck blood from adults (but prefer the blood of infants) through lo > ng beaks they use as suction tubes." .... "In Alta, these fearsome > tlahuepoches either carry lights or emit a glow themselves." From mikegaby at hotmail.com Thu Jan 20 18:51:52 2000 From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:51:52 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: The recent posting about lights near volcanoes put me in mind of the Highland concept of the lightening in the blood which day-keepers, shamans and healers of varying degrees interpret when divining and prognasticating for their clients. The Quiche connect it to the sheet lightening they see over the distant lakes, but the Zapotec patrilineage shaman I met with mentioned the dancing light that fill their stones (used in divining), make their blood speak. Mike Gaby ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Thu Jan 20 21:53:31 2000 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:53:31 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, mike gaby wrote: |The recent posting about lights near volcanoes put me in mind of the |Highland concept of the lightening in the blood which day-keepers, I apologize for misspelling 'lightning' in my previous message, but seeing as how the senses are pretty close, the error was not too far off. :) |shamans and healers of varying degrees interpret when divining and |prognasticating for their clients. The Quiche connect it to the sheet |lightening they see over the distant lakes, but the Zapotec patrilineage |shaman I met with mentioned the dancing light that fill their stones |(used in divining), make their blood speak. Very interesting! From webmaster at linguasphere.org Thu Jan 20 23:28:10 2000 From: webmaster at linguasphere.org (webmaster (by way of schwallr@selway.umt.edu)) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:28:10 -0700 Subject: The Linguasphere Register of the World's Languages and Speech Message-ID: Please could the following announcement be distributed to members of the NAHUAT-L mailing list: The Linguasphere Observatory is a research network devoted to the classification of the world's languages and dialects, the study and promotion of multilingualism and the exploration of our global linguistic environment. The Linguasphere website (www.linguasphere.org ) currently contains extracts from the forthcoming Linguasphere Register of the World's Languages and Speech Communities, including: NORTH-AMERICAN languages from CREE to NAHUATL The observatory would be very grateful to receive comments from linguists on the extracts, which can be viewed and downloaded (together with an explanation of the methodology used entitled Guide to Extracts) - by selecting the Download Extracts button on the homepage. Any scientific support will of course be fully acknowledged. David Dalby Director - Linguasphere Observatory research at linguasphere.org http://www.linguasphere.org From XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com Fri Jan 21 01:17:43 2000 From: XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com (XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:17:43 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: The images from the Codex Nuttall have been uploaded temporarily to: http://members.aol.com/xocoyocopitzin/images/nuttall.jpg From XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com Fri Jan 21 01:20:55 2000 From: XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com (XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:20:55 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: Whoops, that incomplete mail was sent prematurely by accident :-/ The firefly images from the Codex Nuttall have been temporarily uploaded to: (closeup) http://members.aol.com/xocoyocopitzin/images/nuttall.jpg (zoomed out) http://members.aol.com/xocoyocopitzin/images/nuttall2.jpg Use of these images for scholarly discussion is in no way intended as an infringement of Dover Publication's copyright, and both will be removed when discussion is over. Thoughts on the context of the insect? Alison King From putt2win at fuse.net Sat Jan 22 15:36:45 2000 From: putt2win at fuse.net (Mike Moore) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 08:36:45 -0700 Subject: Aztec Language Message-ID: --------------2F14D50E0B4A8E4253920D69 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good morning. I am trying to find a couple of words in the Aztec language, and was wondering if you could help me? Here's the situation: I am in the processing of purchasing an Aztec Corn Snake from a breeder in Florida. This particular breed of corn snake is a beautiful breed of snake, and I would like to give him or her a special name. Here are the words I am looking to translate into aztec: * Snake * Beautiful * Serpent Are there any other words you could recommend? I know this probably sounds crazy to you, but I am very sincere about this request. Any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated. I hope to hear from you soon. Regards, Mike Moore --------------2F14D50E0B4A8E4253920D69 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good morning.  I am trying to find a couple of words in the Aztec language, and was wondering if you could help me?

Here's the situation:  I am in the processing of purchasing an Aztec Corn Snake from a breeder in Florida.  This particular breed of corn snake is a beautiful breed of snake, and I would like to give him or her a special name.

Here are the words I am looking to translate into aztec:
 

  • Snake
  • Beautiful
  • Serpent
Are there any other words you could recommend?  I know this probably sounds crazy to you, but I am very sincere about this request.  Any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated.

I hope to hear from you soon. Regards,

Mike Moore --------------2F14D50E0B4A8E4253920D69-- From malinal at evhr.net Sat Jan 22 17:24:38 2000 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:24:38 -0700 Subject: piedra que humea Message-ID: Message en plusieurs parties et au format MIME. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF6504.9F42E860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In classical nahuatl " popoca " and " ihpoca " mean both =91to smoke, to = emit smoke=92 but if they are related to stones (especialy " teoxihuitl = ", fine turquoise) they cannot be translated so.=20 With " huel popoca " is a high quality of the precious stone expressed = (Sah10,60. Sah11,222. Sah 6,113). In this context " popoca " doesn=92t = mean =91it smoke=92 but rather =91it is glowing, it is resplendent=92.=20 There are also compounds such as " xippopoca " or " teoxippopoca " which = mean =91to resplendent like turquoise or like fine turquoise=92 and = which are used to describe blue birds, the Blue honeycreeper (" = chalchiuhtototl ". Sah11,21) and the Costa hummingbird (" xiuhhuitzilin = ". Sah11,24).=20 But the smoke (metaphor ?) comes back. When those who were experts in = precious stones, at the early morning, sought stones, they used to find = the just place in seeing a little smoke (" poctontli ") above the place = where precious stones were buried (Sah11,221). I do not understand how = the =91smoke=92 can reveal the fineness of the stone. If anyone here can help me. Alexis Wimmer ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF6504.9F42E860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In classical nahuatl " popoca " and " ihpoca " = mean both=20 ‘to smoke, to emit smoke’ but if they are related to stones=20 (especialy " teoxihuitl ", fine turquoise) they cannot be = translated=20 so.

With " huel popoca " is a high quality of the precious = stone=20 expressed (Sah10,60. Sah11,222. Sah 6,113). In this context " = popoca "=20 doesn’t mean ‘it smoke’ but rather ‘it is = glowing, it is=20 resplendent’.

There are also compounds such as " xippopoca " or "=20 teoxippopoca " which mean ‘to resplendent like turquoise or = like fine=20 turquoise’ and which are used to describe blue birds, the Blue=20 honeycreeper (" chalchiuhtototl ". Sah11,21) and the Costa = hummingbird=20 (" xiuhhuitzilin ". Sah11,24).

But the smoke (metaphor ?) comes back. When those who were experts in = precious stones, at the early morning, sought stones, they used to find = the just=20 place in seeing a little smoke (" poctontli ") above the place = where=20 precious stones were buried (Sah11,221). I do not understand how the=20 ‘smoke’ can reveal the fineness of the stone.

If anyone here can help me.

Alexis Wimmer

 

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF6504.9F42E860-- From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com Sat Jan 22 22:29:23 2000 From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 15:29:23 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Saludos List Members, Friends in the Native American Community shared this with me. Henry Vasquez ***************************************************************** January 18 - 2000 Mexika Eagle Society calls for boycott of "Road to El Dorado" http://www.mexika.org CONTACT INFO: "Kurly" Tlapoyawa Mexika Eagle Society e-mail Godkillah at Hotmail.com Michelle Melendez Mexika Eagle Society e-mail Loxicha at Hotmail.com Phone (817) 390-7541 We the members of the Mexika Eagle Society call upon our indigenous brothers= =20 and sisters to join us in openly protesting and boycotting the animated film= =20 ``The Road to El Dorado,=92=92 scheduled to be released March 31, 2000. This= =20 film, produced by Dreamworks SKG, is a blatantly racist misrepresentation of= =20 native culture and history, masquerading as an innocent children=92s movie. It is extremely ignorant for the makers of ``El Dorado=92=92 to use the=20 slaughter and genocide of a people as the backdrop for a children=92s cartoo= n.=20 The film exacerbates every stereotype associated with native people,=20 including the alleged (but never proven) practice of human sacrifice, the=20 even more ludicrous notion of native people worshipping white men as =93Gods= =94=20 (even though the concept of =93God=94 did not exist in any native society),=20= and=20 of course, the European fantasy of native women falling in love with the=20 first white man they lay their eyes on. The story revolves around two white men (the heroes of course) who stumble=20 upon a map to El Dorado and journey to the ``New World=92=92 in search of go= ld.=20 Once there, they encounter an ignorant group of savages who quickly=20 pronounce them ``Gods,=92=92 and an enticing, voluptuous native woman who=20 quickly takes on the role of faithful sidekick. Then, of course, there=92s t= he=20 fanatical native ``priest=92=92 who lusts for personal power and calls for h= uman=20 sacrifice. Portraying native people in this fashion is like passing off Al=20 Jolson and Amos & Andy as black culture. Students learn very little about native people as it is. Making light of the= =20 European invasion of our land, even in a cartoon setting, is like making a=20 movie about the Holocause in which Germans are the heroes. This=20 misrepresentation of history only serves to reinforce and validate the=20 American public=92s total disregard for true native history. To dismiss it i= s=20 as a mere cartoon suggests that feeding racist lies to unwitting children is= =20 perfectly fine. It would be better for children to learn absolutely nothing=20 about native history than to hear these lies and have to unlearn them later=20 if they have any sense at all. What kind of twisted sense of self is this=20 film going to engender in young white kids who will see over and over again=20 how white people are superior in every way? We know how it would make our children feel - just as we were made to feel=20 by attending Eurocentric American schools and reading false history books.=20 The only history we were taught was the history of our conquest by white=20 people. That despite 99% of our history occuring before the arival of=20 Europeans, the only history that mattered was that of our being=20 ``civilized=92=92 and coming to know the great western way. Of course it should not surprise us that films like this exist. After all,=20 throughout the entire history of this nation, native people have been looked= =20 upon as being less than human. ``The Road to Eldorado=92=92 is but a link in= a=20 continuous chain of dehumanizing propaganda unleashed upon our people by=20 American society as a whole. Therefore, the Mexika Eagle Society urges everyone to boycott this film, as=20 well as any business=92 which do promotional tie-ins associated with the=20 movie. Please note: this is not some juvenile scheme about being respected=20 as a =93market=94 of consumers, or demanding respect for our =93buying power= .=94=20 These things mean nothing to us. This is about human dignity and having=20 respect for the history and traditions of others. In addition to boycotting=20 this film, join us in public protest by expressing your concerns in writing=20 to the powers at be at Dreamworks SKG: Call: (818) 733-7774 Patricia Gonzalez 100 Universal Plaza Bldg. 10 Universal City, CA 91608 (818) 733-7755 Fax (818) 733-7775 pgonzalez at dreamworks.com please forward your mail to: mefoote at hotmail.com jfang at dreamworks.com etabak at dreamworks.com sbilic at dreamworks.com celliott at dreamworks.com hbernstein at dreamworks.com When calling, let them know that you are part of a unified protest. If you=20 are a Mexika Eagle Society member, let them know it! Tell them: We demand that Dreamworks SKG place a disclaimer at the opening=20 of this movie in which they APOLOGIZE for the racist, stereotypical=20 representations of Native people and for the defamation of our character,=20 heritage and history! Also, WE DEMAND that as a show of good faith,=20 Dreamworks SKG establish a SCHOLARSHIP FUND for Native people! From ECOLING at aol.com Sun Jan 23 01:00:07 2000 From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:00:07 -0700 Subject: "Firefly" really a Wasp Message-ID: In a message dated 1/20/2000 9:21:39 PM, XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com writes: >http://members.aol.com/xocoyocopitzin/images/nuttall.jpg The illustration from the Codex Nuttall given just above, from the great marriage scene on p.19, is from one of the naming portions, the "Hill of the Wasp" as it is usually called. The wings are those identified with the wasp, and they occur also in the symbols for Venus, as "Wasp Star". The sharply pointed abdomen holds the stinger. The other major hill in that marriage scene is "Hill of Flints". Lloyd Anderson Ecological Linguistics From XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com Sun Jan 23 01:37:10 2000 From: XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com (XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:37:10 -0700 Subject: "Firefly" really a Wasp Message-ID: In a message dated 1/22/00 6:01:06 PM, ECOLING at aol.com writes: << the "Hill of the Wasp" as it is usually called. The wings are those identified with the wasp, and they occur also in the symbols for Venus, as "Wasp Star". The sharply pointed abdomen holds the stinger. >> Thank you for clearing that up, Lloyd. It's a fantastic scene overall, to be sure. :-) Looking for *any* bugs at all in the Nuttall illustrations was more frustrating than the "Where's Waldo" books so popular in the 80's. That trial-like shape coming out of the abdomen made me think I was sooooo close to making a match -- are you saying that curvilinear shape is a stinger, or is it a movement-shape? Where can a body catch fireflies in precolumbian art? The mystery continues.... Alison King From cberry at cinenet.net Sun Jan 23 02:02:53 2000 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 19:02:53 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com wrote: > Friends in the Native American Community shared this with me. [snip] > Once there, they encounter an ignorant group of savages who quickly=20 > pronounce them ``Gods,=92=92 and an enticing, voluptuous native woman who=20 > quickly takes on the role of faithful sidekick. Then, of course, there=92s t= > he=20 > fanatical native ``priest=92=92 who lusts for personal power and calls for h= > uman=20 > sacrifice. Portraying native people in this fashion is like passing off Al=20 > Jolson and Amos & Andy as black culture. I'm sorry, but it's hard to characterize the movie as distorted history (any more than most entertainments based on history) based on the above alone. It is fairly clear that the possibility of Cortez being in some sense Quetzalcoatl or at least his avatar or emissary did indeed contribute to the Nahua paralysis in effectively dealing with the Spaniards. A native woman, Malinche, did in fact become Cortez's "sidekick" in short order, and played a crucial role in the conquest. And native priests did in fact practice human sacrifice, and it's relatively clear that at least in late Tenochtitlan mass sacrifice was used for political terror as well as for religious purposes. So, precisely what are your objections? -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom" - William Blake From ECOLING at aol.com Sun Jan 23 03:02:47 2000 From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 20:02:47 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: I have *not* seen this movie, and I am *not* making assumptions about what it really contains. But I am commenting about the response to the original posting. Based on my knowledge of many other misrepresentations of pre-European cultures of the Americas, I would bet that this movie may be much of what the author of the first message under this title says it is. At least the author deserves the respect of considering that he or she may be correct in this. I would bet: 1) That the sacrifice aspects of ancient American cultures are exaggerated and sensationalized in a way Europeans would never want to see their own less savory attributes exaggerated. That would be a form of dishonesty, if so. People get away with that sort of thing, when they do, primarily because it is about "primitive others", not about those currently in power. 2) That the high-culture aspects of ancient American cultures are greatly understated. That would be a form of dishonesty, if so. People get away with that sort of thing, when they do, primarily because it is about "primitive others", not about those currently in power. I am simply amazed at the degree of insensivity to inequality in treatment of "us" (in power) vs. "them" (not in power). Claiming that a particular fact is TRUE is in no sense by itself evidence that a presentation about another is TRUE in any sense of balance or realism. And even some things which are true, our own culture agrees by common consent not to talk about in public. At least when it is a member of "us". But it's OK to do it when it is about the "other", whether someone of another political party or of another culture? A real loss of the most basic decency, something that makes me despair of culture being able to overcome this. (We used to agreee by the voracious appetite of media for scandal at tearing people down in order to boost revenue.) So get real, and stop pretending that the "others" who are not currently in power are treated in any balanced way, with any respect for their virtues. They are not, and we all know it. Let's at least try to do something about it, to at least *reduce* the level of violation, instead of pretending it isn't so. Lloyd Anderson Ecological Linguistics From Yaoxochitl at aol.com Sun Jan 23 05:22:11 2000 From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 22:22:11 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Hey Craig Berry: Obviously your views are based on easy slogans, sentimental evasions, and quick certainties. Any scholar, who knows the distorted details of history, will assert that human sacrifice could have been a creation in the fertile little minds of the Spaniards, especially when these soldiers, whose ethnocentric standards and practices distorted the truth, along with the unthinkable atrocities committed on our people, needed a justification for their exploitative nature. Let's not forget that the only eyewitness accounts of the conquest of Mexico come from 4 spainiards, one of them anonymous, Cortez, who wrote letters to the king of Spain, another spaniard, whose name escapes me, and Bernal Diaz del Castillo, who wrote his memoirs 35 years after the conquest, and Im sure fostered a grossley distorted tale of what my ancestors were like. I suggest you do some research, both external and internal analysis on this before u shoot your mouth off like that. You have much to learn Craig. I suggest you dissect your own ancestral history first before u make absurd presumptions based on the biased, ethnocentric, one sided views coming from a group of people that raped, enslaved, and murdered in the name of Chrisitianity. From cberry at cinenet.net Sun Jan 23 06:44:57 2000 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 23:44:57 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 ECOLING at aol.com wrote: > I have *not* seen this movie, > and I am *not* making assumptions about what it really contains. Yet below you seem to be doing just that. > But I am commenting about the response to the original posting. > > Based on my knowledge of many other misrepresentations > of pre-European cultures of the Americas, > I would bet that this movie may be much of what the author ^^^ Isn't that saying you're making an assumption? > of the first message under this title says it is. > At least the author deserves the respect of considering that > he or she may be correct in this. Considering it is fine. Calling for a boycott without having viewed the movie is absurd prejudice, in the most literal sense of that term. > I would bet: > > 1) That the sacrifice aspects of ancient American cultures are exaggerated > and sensationalized in a way Europeans would never want to see > their own less savory attributes exaggerated. And yet consider how the very same company exaggerated the unsavory side of Christian clerics in 'The Hunchback of Notre Dame', yet as I recall no Europeans called for a boycott on that basis. Storytelling, especially for children, is *about* exaggeration, larger-than-life heroes and villains. > That would be a form of dishonesty, if so. So is 'fiction', of course. But again, we're seeing a call for a *real* boycott based on *hypothetical* aspects of the movie. Rather reminds me of the ruckus way back when over a movie titled "The Prophet", about Mohammed. Moslems were enraged that an image of Mohammed would be seen on screen, violating a restriction of their religion. Some even commited acts of terrorism in protest. It turned out that the movie was shot entirely from Mohammed's point of view, and thus he never appeared on screen. > People get away with that sort of thing, when they do, primarily > because it is about "primitive others", not about those currently in > power. Now come on. Again, see Hunchback. Or Pocohontas, where the evil rapacious Europeans are the key villains in the plot. Or any number of other examples. If anything, we're seeing a cultural turn where the "others" are good guys disproportionately. > 2) That the high-culture aspects of ancient American cultures are greatly > understated. > That would be a form of dishonesty, if so. "If so." Would it not seem wiser to wait and see? > Claiming that a particular fact is TRUE is in no sense by itself evidence > that a presentation about another is TRUE in any sense of balance > or realism. I'm not sure I follow your assertion, here. > So get real, and stop pretending that the "others" > who are not currently in power are treated in any balanced way, > with any respect for their virtues. I don't believe I'm pretending. Perhaps it's because I live in Southern California, but I rarely see other cultures presented in less than glowing terms; in fact, as I mentioned, it frequently seems to be the case that flaws and failures of other societies are ignored while those of American and European society are endlessly reiterated. > They are not, and we all know it. > Let's at least try to do something about it, Doing something would seem best reserved when we have established their is actually an 'it' to be dealt with, wouldn't you think? -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom" - William Blake From cberry at cinenet.net Sun Jan 23 07:10:46 2000 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 00:10:46 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Hey Flowery Warrior, On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote: > Obviously your views are based on easy slogans, sentimental evasions, > and quick certainties. This may be obvious, yet it is not true. I have devoted years and considerable effort to understanding mesoamerican culture, which I find extremely admirable, rich, beautiful, compelling, and complex. Like every civilization (or set of civilizations) in every time, the Nahua had much to be proud of, much else to be ashamed of. They were people, as we are people, neither angels nor demons. > Any scholar, who knows the distorted details of history, will assert > that human sacrifice could have been a creation in the fertile little > minds of the Spaniards, especially when these soldiers, whose > ethnocentric standards and practices distorted the truth, along with the > unthinkable atrocities committed on our people, needed a justification > for their exploitative nature. This is a controversial subject, but I am convinced that their is sufficient evidence to conclude that human sacrifice was pervasive in Nahua society. I suggest we agree to disagree on this one, as historically this argument tends to generate more heat than light. > Let's not forget that the only eyewitness accounts of the conquest of > Mexico come from 4 spainiards, one of them anonymous, Cortez, who wrote > letters to the king of Spain, another spaniard, whose name escapes me, > and Bernal Diaz del Castillo, who wrote his memoirs 35 years after the > conquest, and Im sure fostered a grossley distorted tale of what my > ancestors were like. Add to these the testimony of Sahagun and Duran's informants, of course, and archaeological evidence. I do agree that the primary sources are distorted, but not sufficiently to deny that human sacrifice took place. > I suggest you do some research, both external and internal analysis on > this before u shoot your mouth off like that. We can disagree without resorting to ad hominem attacks, I hope. > You have much to learn Craig. Of course, as do we all. > I suggest you dissect your own ancestral history first before u make > absurd presumptions based on the biased, ethnocentric, one sided views > coming from a group of people that raped, enslaved, and murdered in the > name of Chrisitianity. I have. My ancestors did much that was beautiful, much that was terrible, like yours, like everyone's. -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom" - William Blake From CBodif9907 at aol.com Sun Jan 23 08:56:14 2000 From: CBodif9907 at aol.com (CBodif9907 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 01:56:14 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Forgive my spelling, but I felt compelled to write on this list for the first time. This message is very long, the typing is probably atrocious. I didn't have time to proofread it, but I really wanted to stick up for Craig a bit, though he doesn't really need my help. If you have no interest in this Movie Boycott issue, by all means delete this message. Ok here goes: My experience as a student taught about the history of the Conquest of the Mexica has been an endless litany about European atrocities committed against a very sympathetic and noble culture. Anyone who is concerned that European atrocities are being glossed over in favor of painting an unfair picture of Mexica religious practices has totally missed the last 30 or so years of scholarship on the subject. I can't think of an anthropology student who has escaped the whole "Spaniards destroyed everything, profaned native rituals, burned all the sacred books and annihilated all the great religious centers, and committed any number of horrors in the name of Christianity" speech. It is difficult to imagine a more sinister portrait being painted of the Spanish conquest of Mexico. I don't really deny of it. It may have been the single greatest human engineered catastrophe in history. It was an unrecoverable loss to humanity. But if anyone out there is concerned that the Mexica are coming across as the bad guys and the Spaniards are coming across as the good guys...trust me, you have nothing to worry about. No doubt the European perception of the meaning of human sacrifice in Tenochtitlan was far different from the internal perspective of the Mexica and their priestly class. But there is pretty solid evidence that large scale sacrifices of captives were made in Tenochtitlan as well as many other large ceremonial systems throughout the Triple Alliance Empire. How do you account for the Xompantli (skull racks) if the sacrifice of war captives was not practiced? They don't merely exist as eye witness accounts, Xompantli can bee seen carved as relief images on precolumbian stone structures as well. You must also consider that some accounts of Nahua religious life and customs came directly from the mouths of Nahua people. Nahua legends of Quetzalcoatl (and yes, there are MANy of them) do mention human sacrifice. In fact, in one legend I believe Quetzalcoatl is opposed to it. That doe snot prove that it occurred, but it certainly suggests that it was an element of the culture from time to time. It was my understanding that human sacrifice on the Templo Mayor was conducted to commemorate Huitzilipochtli's great victory over his enemies when he sent them tumbling down the mountain. I donlt understand why anyone would want to classify that as negative Spanish propaganda. I imagine the Mexica of the time would have been shocked by anyone questioning the validity of such a practice. It wasn't meaningless butchery, it had a purpose. It can certainly be debated whether or not this practice was performed on a large scale to intimidate or send a message to foreign dignitaries visiting the Tenochtitlan. But why is it THAT implausible? The Spaniards certainly committed some atrocities in the name of religion, why not gain some extra political advantadge from a legitimate religious practice? If this level of sacrifice wasn't practice, then why were other kingdoms who were coerced into supplying large number of Flowery War captives for sacrifice so willing to send tens of thousands of warriors along with the Spaniards to Tenochtitlan? That certainly suggests to me that not everyone was happy with Mexica rule. Doesn't mean the Mexica were bad folks. That is just the state of affairs everywhere people rule another people, but the degree of hostility certainly lends credence to the claims that lesser kingdoms were very angry with the Mexica's continual demands for sacrificial victims. It is unfair to look at the civilizations of Mexico at the time of the Conquest as a single monolithic political enitity living in perfect harmony. Mesoamerica was linguistically, culturally, and politically diverse, and there were definitely certain groups who did not like each other. The Purepecha (I am still puzzled why they are referred to as Tarascans) were noted for their success in battle against the Mexica, who made entreaties for them to join forces in an attempt to drive out the Spaniards. Closer to Tenochtitlan, first hand accounts recorded from the testimony of survivors of the Conquest in Tlalocan paint an unsympathetic picture of the defenders of Tenochtitlan, while the defenders of Tlalocan come across as absolutely fearless intractable warriors. I am not saying that they were not, but I have doubts that the picture their testimony paints of Mexica defenders in Tenochtitlan lacking resolve are accurate. I am certain they fought ferociously to defend their capital. There is a final comment I want to make about this hostile reaction to Craig's "absurd presumptions" concerning the likelihood that human sacrifice took place. IF it took place for the religious reasons recorded by Spanish (and some Nahua) chroniclers, the Mexica would be pretty pissed that this was doubted and considered as some form of malicious Spaniard slander used to justify genocide. I cannot remember the source off hand (if that makes me a liar, I can't defend that, but for what it's worth I am being honest here) but I remember the tale of a particularly valiant and intelligent enemy war captain from Tlaxcalla who was captured in a Flowery War. The Emperor wanted to keep him as a war captain to use in a campaign against the Purepecha (Tarascans). This captain served in the campaign, but only on the condition that afterward he would be sacrificed. I believe another account describes the rage of a noble father at his sone who was captured over his attempts to avoid being sacrificed. It appears from these and other accounts that accepting sacrifice after capture was rather like committing sepukku or ritual suicide in Japan. It was the honorable thing to accept, even demand your fate. This is why I am really suprised by the reaction to Craig's comments. It's not like Craig said, "It is an absolute fact that the Mexica murdered people by the thousands." I can't think of a SINGLE book written on the subject that makes that sort of biased judgment about the meaning of sacrifice in Mesoamerica. Sure, lots of primary resources are filled with religious and cultural bias, but the bias is usually transparant and easy to spot. At least I think so, perhaps I am mistaken. I think most of the polemics regarding Nahua religious practices are formulaic as hell. Plain old smear tactics. But the volume and consistency of the descriptions of the practice of human sacrifice in Tenochtitlan is compelling. And I think in most cases the description of the practice is very matter of fact. Very often the priests were meticulous in recording the meaning and function of what they labelled "heathen" religious practices so they would know who and what they were up against. When a modern reader goes through these accounts of sacrifice it comes across as a practice of great importance and meaning...NOT as large scale murder. Again, it can be debated whether some political opportunists capitalized on these sacrificial events and used them to intimidate foreign dignitaries......but it certainly wouldn't be the FIRST time religion and poltics have mingled, one has only to look to the role of the Roman Church in politics for at least 700 years in Europe. I think it is a reasonable assumption that if I were a Zapotec or Mixtec ambassador and I saw 1000 warriors tumbling down the Templo Mayor, I would have quaked with fear at the might of the Empire Huitizilipochtli helped build, and I would have been a more tractable subject than if I had stayed in a fortified mountain city and never set foot in the Mexica capital. It is pure conjecture, but reasonable. If it is offensive I apologize, you certainly don't have to agree. A final point I want to make in Craig's defense--what is wrong with the explanation that some Nahuas may have believed the Spaniards were supernatural. They were pale with heavy facial hair, they wore metal armor and rode animals the indigenous people had never seen. The ships were certainly unlike anything in the Americas. I am not saying they were better at all, but certainly unlike anything ANYONE on the mainland at that time had ever seen. The remarkable coincidence of Cortez arrival in the year 1 Reed must have also had a spiritual impact on the people. If they were a spiritual and religious people whose lives were guided in many ways by ritual cycles, I would be shocked if the people did NOT harbor at least a suspicion or nagging fear that Cortez might be Quetzalcoatl. Cortez was an opportunist, I am sure he took advantadge of this misinterpretation and amplified the suspicions of his Godly origin. As rumor made its way to the capital, it seems perfectly sensible that the Emperor, with his religious role and ties to the Toltecs through religious history, WOULD think to himself...."Oh man....is this for real?" The stakes could not have been higher if he judged Cortez a man when he was not. I am sure like all societies, there were skeptics right from the beginning who knew the Spaniards were just very unusual men, however mysterious their origins. I don't see any reason to take insult at the suggestion that many of the Nahuas thought or feared Cortez might be a god. Religious hysteria is commonplace throughout the history of Europe. With such calendrical and religious factors coinciding as they did with the arrival and appearance of Cortez, and Cortez incentive to perpetuate this misunderstanding to aid him in conquering a population so vast it boggled the imagination, why WOULDN'T this belief have been held by a portion of the population? If you were a Mexica who never saw Cortez, but only heard rumors of his appearance and his success in battle, wouldnt you get a little worried? Come on, this isn't some unfair slam on the Mexica, if people in America can buy into that guy who led Heaven's Gate, why couldn't some of the nahua population have believed in the divine origin of Cortez and his men, at least at first? That's far more reasonable than offing yourself for "Do" in my opinion. I think it's too the credit of the people that fought him so valiantly later, despite the diseases ravaging the population and the advantage of powder weapons and horse, that they might have harbored some belief he was a god and battled against him anyway. Well, this went on too long, but I think the criticism leveled at Craig was unfair to him, and to be perfectly honest unfair to Mesoamerican history. Those people fought and died in the millions for their original beliefs. To throw out the sacrfice of war captives as religious propaganda is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Not to mention it ignores millenia of religious motifs, and a few original documents which still survive. I think it is similarly unfair to label the belief that some Nahua peoples believed Cortez and his men were gods or divine as "biased assumption." There is a perfect precident set in the encounter of Captain Cook with the people of Hawai. He arrived at the beginning of a religious festival which honored the arrival of the divine founder of the hawaiian islands. He was at first thought to be this god and greeted with excitement and honor. When he stayed beyond the ceremonial time at which the god Lono was supposed to depart, the Hawaiian people (no doubt some already suspicious) killed him. Spiritual belief can powerfully shape the perception of reality, and when something incredible occurs that has some sort of religious precedent, it is easy for the line between reality and the spiritual to blur. Easier for some than others. Some I think are natural born skeptics. No doubt many of the Mesoamerican peoples were skeptical from the get go. But I think it is selling short one of the richest spiritual cultures in history to dismiss such a misunderstanding as a biased attempt to justify European conquest. I am sure some very bad people have taken this event and run with it, using it to justify all sorts of atrocities, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. And as far as this movie goes, all Craig was saying is, just because a member of a particular group in a film has cultural characteristics exagerrated to become a bad guy, doesn't mean the film is racist. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, let's at least KNOW what we are picketing. If you just draw up the picket signs and stand out front without even knowing what you are really protesting, it does more harm than good. People who might be won over to your cause begin to doubt your sincerity. Be a good example for your cause, see the movie, then if it ticks you off, picket all you want. Just find out first before using blanket assumptions to justify a protest sight unseen. It's too important for this cause to be taken seriously to jump the gun. Tell folks to be on the lookout maybe, but just because something has happenned before doesn't mean it wil be the same every time. That same sort of stereotyping is what helped justify genocide in this hemisphere for hundreds of years. Well after this long rant I am sure no one ever wants to hear from me again. Just had to get that off my chest. If I am offended by the film I will be sure to spread the word about it. But I will find out some specifics first. If you made it this far, thanks! Case Bodiford From malinal at evhr.net Sun Jan 23 09:56:09 2000 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 02:56:09 -0700 Subject: Aztec Language Message-ID: The common Aztec name for serpent is "coatl". Bernardino de Sahagn in his chapter about serpents describes any of them. "Teuctlacozauhqui", Crotalus sp. "Iztac coatl", Crotalus sp. "Tlehuah coatl", Crotalus sp. "Chiyahuitl" or "Chiyauhcoatl", Crotalus triseriatus triseriatus. "Zolcoatl", Trymorphodon biscutatus or Agkistrodon bilineatus. "Mazacoatl", 1. Crotalus cerastes or other Crotalus sp. 2. Constrictor constrictor mexicana. "Tetzauhcoatl", Diadolphis regalis. "Tlapapalcoatl", Lampropeltis sp. "Chimalcoatl", Crotalus sp. "Citlalcoatl", Drymobius margaritiferus. "Metlapilcoatl", Botrops numifera (or Dermophis mexicanus). "Ahueyactli", Crotalus durissus, durissus. "Palancacoatl", Botrops atrox. "Ehca coatl", Masticophis taeniatus taeniatus. "Cincoatl", Pituophis deppei. And others which are unidentified. I don't know the english names of those serpents. The identification is given by Charles E.Dibble and Arthur J.O. Anderson in their translation of the 'General History of the Things of New Spain and is based on Martin del Campo 'Essayo', Anales del Instituto de Biologia, IX,3-4. The word "coatl" is also used in aztec language to form names of divinities (the most famous is "Quetzalcoatl") and 'calendrical' names such as "Chicome Coatl", an important female maize divinity. Alexis Wimmer. From Yaoxochitl at aol.com Sun Jan 23 11:29:58 2000 From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 04:29:58 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Hey Case Bodiford, Blah blah blah blah blah. From mexicapride at earthlink.net Sun Jan 23 17:13:39 2000 From: mexicapride at earthlink.net (Tekpatltzin) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:13:39 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Tiahui, As one who has seen the trailers to the Road to El Dorado (with my children) and as a person of Mexika-Chichimeka descent, here is my reasoning on why I will boycott this "animated" distortion of history. I read the very scholarly and intelligent insights of those that regularly post to this list server. I see how many are learning the nahuatl language (the many versions of it), the nahuatl culture, the history , etc. No doubt about it, very enlightening stuff. But I live and work in a mostly Mexican area of Chicago and see how "our" people are trying to earn a living and raise their families without making much of a fanfare abut it. In other words they just want a chance at a decent life without being told that we are "illegal" aliens in a land that once had no "linear" borders. Much of the wisdom shared here will never make it to these millions of Mexicanos or for that matter to the general public at large. But these Mexicanos are the ones that will continue to suffer from the anti-immigration hysteria that has been stirred up by the elected officials of this country, on both sides of the political spectrum. All they want (for the most part) is a change at a modest wage. But the media highlights the negative imagery, "gangs" on the rise, drug wars, rise in the Mexican population, taking jobs away from young Americans (this one has to be laughed at), etc. I can't stand here and tell you that "sacrifice" was not a practice in ancient Anahuac. I was not there. And there are arguments on both sides. You bring your facts, I'll bring my facts and let's go at it. I can tell you that I am tired of always being reminded of this when I give talks. I wish that maybe sometimes we could also talk about the Spanish and Catholic inquisition and the millions that they killed in the name of their GOD. But that is not what "sells" and if you are familiar with the people of Mexico today they are a huge Catholic majority and do not want to hear anything negative about the Catholic Church anyway. They're too busy trying to survive today in Mexico. But many are starting to question so there is some hope. Being one that works with youth and inmates I can tell you that movies like this one that is being offered by Mr. Spielberg's Dreamworks factory will make it's money but will provide nothing in the way of a educational opportunity. Disney is also very good at distorting a historical chapter and then making a love story or a "feel good" movie for the movie viewers to forget any pain associated with history thus avoiding any real "healing" on a collective basis, that is for all of us to heal. Instead the kids will laugh and parents will buy little plastic figures and treat it all as a circus event. This is proving to be detrimental to our children and the schools today (as a whole) are no better at getting to the "healing" that has to take place in order for all of us to move forward. So now Mexicanos in the U.S that still hold dear to our hearts the contributions that our ancestors offered will now have to suffer and watch another version of the quest for GOLD. We'll boycott it, but Mr. Speilberg will make his money. We have to prepare for another score of questions about sacrifice and we'll answer them as before. There has to come a time when a movie is offered that properly deals with the sad history of the formation of Mexico and the U.S. But this would hurt because it was not pretty, so in comes Disney and Dreamworks to ensure that we further delay any real "discussion" of what really happened. It hurts all of us because we know better. I am boycotting this movie because my children already heard the laughter in the thither (during the trailer)when the two "bumbling" spanish characters made their way into the jungle to begin the quest while meeting a sexy native woman who is there to assist them. It is wrong to laugh about this and my children even at their age knew this. It is wrong to offer a movie in this fashion. Would Mr. Speilberg offer an amusing cartoon about the Holocaust of his people. Maybe with a young Jewish girl and a young Nazi guard falling in love and some wacky characters offering their support only to see them perish in the gas chamber. It has gotten that ridiculous. It is true. No one will know what really happened in the past. We can only guess ( with a spiritual or scientific method) and there are many different views, all of whom have passionate supporters. I am just tired of always having to hear about the "negativity" of our ancestors in the media. But that is the "American" way. Tell a lie long enough and it will become truth. These are my opinions... Tlazohkamati, Tekpatltzin Kalpulli Yetlanezi-Tolteka 13 Aurora-Chicago-Teotihuakan From cberry at cinenet.net Sun Jan 23 17:16:57 2000 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:16:57 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Jan 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote: > Hey Case Bodiford, > Blah blah blah blah blah. You know, Yaoxochitl, your ancestors valued eloquence in public speaking very highly. Perhaps this would be one aspect of their culture you might consider emulating... -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom" - William Blake From dfrye at umich.edu Sun Jan 23 17:31:10 2000 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:31:10 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: What is wrong with the movie's "history"? Not having seen it (obviously), I can only go by the description we have been given, but it seems that the movie makers have taken the most easily stereotyped vignettes from the Cortez enterprise and applied them to an entirely fictional "El Dorado" quest in a way that inevitably makes for bad history. > It is fairly clear that the possibility of Cortez being in some sense > Quetzalcoatl or at least his avatar or emissary did indeed contribute > to the Nahua paralysis in effectively dealing with the Spaniards. 1. This is admittedly the common version given in most accounts of the conquest, but it is based on astonishingly thin evidence. The entire "Cortes-Quetzalcoatl" scenario appears only in the later accounts. While it is fairly clear that Nahuas applied the term "teotl" to the Spanish early on, it is also clear that the Spanish thought they were being called "gods" and that they relished the idea, despite the fact that the Nahuas never revered them as gods. To pretend that identifying "whites" as gods is a generic "native" reaction to "superior strangers" is arguably racist. > A native woman, Malinche, did in fact become Cortez's "sidekick" in > short order, and played a crucial role in the conquest. 2. But certainly not a sidekick in the Hollywood sense, nor was she a voluptuous seductress, and to turn her into that (rather than the embattled, enslaved, but highly intelligent survivor -- and probably a teenager -- that she was) is Hollywoodization of history at its worst. > Native priests did in fact practice human sacrifice, and it's relatively > clear that at least in late Tenochtitlan mass sacrifice was used for > political terror as well as for religious purposes. 3. So what does the absolutely exceptional case of late Tenochtitlan have to do with any mythical El Dorado? Why take the most objectional aspect of one society and make it emblematic of "Native" religion elsewhere, particularly if (as you recognize yourself) the use of sacrifice in late Tenochtitlan was more political than religious? (Especially if the film does not at the same time depict the abandon with which Europeans killed and raped in the course of their conquests.) My apologies to all for prolonging this discussion. I'll bow out now. David Frye From ECOLING at aol.com Sun Jan 23 18:31:04 2000 From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:31:04 -0700 Subject: Stereotyping in Anthro and Movies Message-ID: My objection was to the overly quick dismissal of someone who was criticising a movie. C. Berry clearly did not understand my posting. Quote below, and other evidences that he did not understand the explicit "if" I deliberately put in there, and my statement that the author of the original post deserved better consideration. The only other thing I think I could have done was to say explicitly that yes, I think there was some human sacrifice (and that because of the difficulties of evidence and biases, I take no position on it beyond that). Look at the following: >> Claiming that a particular fact is TRUE is in no sense by itself evidence >> that a presentation about another is TRUE in any sense of balance >> or realism. > >I'm not sure I follow your assertion, here. I think the statement speaks for itself. But let me spell it out one more step. Saying that a people did (on some occasions) perform human sacrifice is *not* by itself evidence that a presentation about those people is TRUE in any sense of balance or realism. Perfectly obvious point. By the way, I am (I always have to point out in these discussions) no politically correct person. I hate political correctness, and I am not trying to curry favor with anyone. Just act as an antidote when I think that may be helpful. I object *also* to the stereotyped portrayal of Spaniards as villains in the conquest, though there certainly were villains. The problem is the stereotyping. Notice that when portrayed by north Europeans in such ways, the Spanish (or Hispanics) are "others" too. Awfully easy to do. C. Berry correctly points to this. Nor am I in favor of stereotyped criticism of one's own background culture, for example those of European ancestry dumping condemnation on northern Europeans who came to North America. The point that movies for children exaggerate heros and villains is no defense, in my view. Of course they do. *BUT THEY DO NOT HAVE TO DO IT BY DEFINING RACIAL OR CULTURAL STEREOTYPES* THAT is the problem. Movies for children can teach evils in that way, by teaching that character and race or culture are the same thing. By teaching that others are (yech!) primitive. Or horrible. Etc. Etc. The "others" need not even be humans. JAWS was dishonest, and a disservice to humanity. The Post Office advertising stamps with insects "Get them before they get you" is a disservice to humanity, by further isolating them from nature. Cheap shots, in all cases, those stereotyped have no recourse. The real damage is to the human receivers of such messages. RACIAL AND CULTURAL STEREOTYPES should never be taught. By definition of the word "stereotype", in normal use. (Cultures can have interests in conflict, but that is quite another matter.) I am a strong believer that the trivialized and commonplace violence, racial antagonism, and other negatives in movies and TV *DO* have a direct causal linkage to violence in real life. Movies and TV are the only way many children learn about much of life. And adults too, for that matter, more and more I fear. Especially where it concerns other cultures, this is dangerous. Our society, like many others, has singularly bad taste in what it exposes its children to. And what I am talking about is enormously more important than what people sometimes spend all of their time on, supposed "decency". Violence and cultural antagonisms are much more indecent than those other things. So, therefore, I thought the quick dismissal of the person suggesting a boycott of a movie was highly inappropriate (even if that person may be, in the view of most of us, wrong about facts, in wanting to believe that there was no human sacrifice). Based on the track record of movies in most cultures, including at least recently especially ours that I know of, though I suspect recently more everwhere in the globe, I would bet, as I stated, that there is some grounds to support the critic of the movie, based merely on common sense about the stereotyping typical of movies. And therefore we should not dismiss the criticism so fast. I was explicit that I had not seen the movie, and also by putting "if" in at least two places, for the ethical reason that I did not want to appear to be claiming knowledge I did not have. C. Berry's response accusing me of making assumptions was both factually wrong and a cheap shot. I did not make assumptions of fact about this particular movie, and said so explicitly. I only bet that it was not so very unlike other movies made in our culture, in certain respects. Lloyd Anderson Ecological Linguistics From cberry at cinenet.net Sun Jan 23 18:45:28 2000 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:45:28 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Tekpatltzin et al, First, thank you for your considered and careful treatment of this issue. There is obviously much to be said on many sides, here. > I read the very scholarly and intelligent insights of those that > regularly post to this list server. I see how many are learning the > nahuatl language (the many versions of it), the nahuatl culture, the > history , etc. No doubt about it, very enlightening stuff. But I live > and work in a mostly Mexican area of Chicago and see how "our" people > are trying to earn a living and raise their families without making much > of a fanfare abut it. Which is of course true of just about everyone, everywhere, of all races. All Europeans are not living in mansions and ordering large staffs around, any more than all Mexicans are picking lettuce outside Fresno. We're all people, some rich, some poor, some fascinated with history, some ignorant of it, all just trying to get by. > In other words they just want a chance at a decent > life without being told that we are "illegal" aliens in a land that once > had no "linear" borders. Every country in every time has as a matter of course controlled immigration. Even the Mexica, on arrival in the Valley of Mexico, had to find 'sponsors' among the already resident Nahua societies, and lived marginally for a long time as they were assimilated. Also note that there are more legal residents of the US who are of Mexican decent than illegals of the same ancestry. Nobody (sane) wants to eject all Mexicans, or harass them in any way. Many rational people, including many of Mexican ancestry, see the need to control the rate and nature of immigration simply to avoid overwhelming various societal support systems. In other words, immigrant status is *very* different from illegal immigrant status, and focussing on the latter distorts the situation and deals with a minority of the relevant population. > I can't stand here and tell you that "sacrifice" was not a practice in > ancient Anahuac. I was not there. And there are arguments on both sides. > You bring your facts, I'll bring my facts and let's go at it. Of course. Like anything in the past, there is no certainty, only probabilities associated with various types of testimony and other evidence. > I can tell you that I am tired of always being reminded of this when I > give talks. I wish that maybe sometimes we could also talk about the > Spanish and Catholic inquisition and the millions that they killed in > the name of their GOD. As I mentioned, we see plenty of this, too. Over and over. If anything, the beautiful parts of European history are being lost in obsession over its sins of conquest and oppression. > But that is not what "sells" and if you are familiar with the people of > Mexico today they are a huge Catholic majority and do not want to hear > anything negative about the Catholic Church anyway. "Not wanting to hear" is very *very* different from "not having the information available," of course. > Being one that works with youth and inmates I can tell you that movies > like this one that is being offered by Mr. Spielberg's Dreamworks > factory will make it's money but will provide nothing in the way of a > educational opportunity. How do you know this, not having seen the entire movie? > Disney is also very good at distorting a historical chapter and then > making a love story or a "feel good" movie for the movie viewers to > forget any pain associated with history thus avoiding any real "healing" > on a collective basis, that is for all of us to heal. Like the grasping, hateful, lust-inspired pure evil of the priest in Hunchback, a Frenchman (and hence part of my own ancestral civilization)? Yes, this is definitely how I want to think of *my* people. > Instead the kids will laugh and parents will buy little plastic > figures and treat it all as a circus event. Because it is. Punch and Judy shows were the degenerate grandchildren of morality plays about Pontius and Judas. They had no redeeming social value and distorted history beyond recognition. They also were wildly popular and made people laugh. There's no crime in this. > This is proving to be detrimental to our children and the schools today > (as a whole) are no better at getting to the "healing" that has to take > place in order for all of us to move forward. Must everything with a historical basis, however remote, be utterly accurate in every detail? Are we to have no 'Camelot' because there was probably no historical Arthur, and if there was, he lived during a period of rude near-barbarism, not the Age of Chivalry? Are we to have no 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' because Hitler cannot be shown to have authorized a search for the Ark? We must distinguish history from fiction, and understand that fiction is given poetic license to distort, exaggerate, and bend the truth for artistic reasons. > So now Mexicanos in the U.S that still hold dear to our hearts the > contributions that our ancestors offered will now have to suffer and > watch another version of the quest for GOLD. The Spaniards were looking for gold; that's historical. And they didn't have a trademark on greed and acquisitiveness, either; look at how far (in distance and effort) the Nahua were willing to go for e.g. quetzal plumes. "Going to the far place to get the treasure" is one of the archetypal stories, from Jason and the Argonauts on down. > We'll boycott it, but Mr. Speilberg will make his money. We have to > prepare for another score of questions about sacrifice and we'll answer > them as before. Surely a movie that makes people want to ask questions is a good thing? > There has to come a time when a movie is offered that properly deals > with the sad history of the formation of Mexico and the U.S. But this > would hurt because it was not pretty, so in comes Disney and Dreamworks > to ensure that we further delay any real "discussion" of what really > happened. It hurts all of us because we know better. I would like to see that movie. But again, realize that aspects of this are being dealt with, even in children's films. Look at 'Pocohontas', with the noble natives meeting rapacious gold-hungry evil Europeans. I felt like picketing *that* one. :) > I am boycotting this movie because my children already heard the > laughter in the thither (during the trailer)when the two "bumbling" > spanish characters made their way into the jungle to begin the quest > while meeting a sexy native woman who is there to assist them. What was the problem with this laughter? The bumbling hero is a staple in every kid's film. The friendly native woman is a matter of prominent historical record twice (Pocohontas, Malinche) and hence fair game for storytelling. > It is wrong to laugh about this and my children even at their age knew > this. It is history that happened. Perhaps through the laughter some curiosity will be triggered. That has certainly happened with other Disney films; I personally know several under-10 children who have a basic idea of ancient Greek mythology thanks to 'Hercules', for example. > It is wrong to offer a movie in this fashion. Would Mr. Speilberg offer > an amusing cartoon about the Holocaust of his people. Maybe with a young > Jewish girl and a young Nazi guard falling in love and some wacky > characters offering their support only to see them perish in the gas > chamber. It has gotten that ridiculous. Well, do note that in a paroxysm of astonishingly bad taste, the US European-dominant culture of the 1960s, just two decades after the Holocaust, did air 'Hogan's Heroes' -- and it was extremely popular, and is still in syndication. Talk about historical portrayals that make you cringe! And this is about Europeans murdering Europeans en masse, with a laugh track. > It is true. No one will know what really happened in the past. It is the primary function of entertainment to entertain. Historical accuracy is secondary. If art is chained to strict veracity, we arrive at grim Soviet-style 'social realism' and art dies. Teaching history is a separate function, and cannot be force-fed to an unwilling audience. > We can only guess ( with a spiritual or scientific method) and there are > many different views, all of whom have passionate supporters. I am just > tired of always having to hear about the "negativity" of our ancestors > in the media. But that is the "American" way. Tell a lie long enough > and it will become truth. Again, maybe California is different. But the last media presentation I can recall seeing with respect to Nahua heritage was a brief news item concerning a group of Mexica dancers visiting LA from Mexico city, presented as beautiful, historically rich, and worthy of attention by all Angelenos. (It was fun hearing the reporter trying to pronounce 'Xochitl', by the way. :) Almost all the others are like this, too. About a month ago I saw a brilliantly done documentary on Teotihuacan on the Discovery Channel, which discussed human sacrifice in a balanced way, and took care to trace cultural continuity from T. through the Nahua culture and into modern Mexico. I guess I'd be interested in seeing where all this negativity about Nahua history is hiding; I don't seem to run across any. -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom" - William Blake From cberry at cinenet.net Sun Jan 23 18:48:20 2000 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:48:20 -0700 Subject: Stereotyping in Anthro and Movies Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Jan 2000 ECOLING at aol.com wrote: > My objection was to the overly quick dismissal > of someone who was criticising a movie. Probably about time to wind this down; we all seem to have presented our positions, and we could go around endlessly on this. Do note, however, that I was dismissing someone's criticism of a movie *they had not seen*. Surely criticizing a movie not yet seen has to rank high on the absurdity scale. And if you wish to offer criticism on the basis of "well, most movies on this subject are bad, so this one probably is too" -- well, then, my friend, you are commiting prejudice and bigotry, just as surely as anyone else who applies general patterns to specific individuals without further evidence. -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom" - William Blake From CBodif9907 at aol.com Sun Jan 23 19:02:41 2000 From: CBodif9907 at aol.com (CBodif9907 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 12:02:41 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Just because I was one of the people that helped prolong this discussion, I'll respond to this quckly to clear up some misunderstandings about my position at least. << What is wrong with the movie's "history"? Not having seen it (obviously), I can only go by the description we have been given, but it seems that the movie makers have taken the most easily stereotyped vignettes from the Cortez enterprise and applied them to an entirely fictional "El Dorado" quest in a way that inevitably makes for bad history.>> Never argued with that, just thought people should possibly see at least a trailer or an ad or a clip or a piece of the script or SOMETHING before instituting a boycott. It would not suprise me one bit if cultural stereotypes are exagerrated in an insulting or at least misleading way. If that is the case, by all means boycott away! But what is the problem with actually being personally informed on the matter before instantly falling in line with the boycotters? It's important for a protest against negative stereotypes to be taken seriously. Why boycott unless there is some desire to have your cause acknowledged to make a difference? If you want to make a difference, it helps if you show everyone that you have done your homework first. The protesters objecting to the use of the seminole mascot in Tallahasse are a perfect example. There was one native american gentleman who really affected alot of people because he had a reasoned argument that made alot of sense. The dumb white kids (I'm white btw) who showed up, at least the ones I spoke to, really had nothing to offer, they just saw a protest and hopped in line. But the native american gentleman I spoke with really won me over, not withstanding the official position of the Seminole Tribe of Florida that they do not object to the use of their name by the college. That may be for financial reasons and not representative of the majority of the tribal members. >>1. This is admittedly the common version given in most accounts of the conquest, but it is based on astonishingly thin evidence. The entire "Cortes-Quetzalcoatl" scenario appears only in the later accounts. While it is fairly clear that Nahuas applied the term "teotl" to the Spanish early on, it is also clear that the Spanish thought they were being called "gods" and that they relished the idea, despite the fact that the Nahuas never revered them as gods. To pretend that identifying "whites" as gods is a generic "native" reaction to "superior strangers" is arguably racist.>> I do not think anyone said that this was a generic reaction. I certainly didn't. That didn't occur in the Andes, and it didn't occur anywhere on the eastern seaboard of North America that I am aware. The Apalache in particular were exceptionally hostile to the Spanish, probably because they were on notice that they were unsavory characters who would carry them off into slavery given the chance. All I think Craig was indicating was that there were a remarkable number of religious coincidences operating to Cortez advantage. I know I certainly didn't mean to imply that the Spanish were "worshipped." All I meant indicate was that when confronted by men with firearms riding horses for the first time, given the significance of the year of there arrival, that ALONE would have been reason for some of the Nahua people to have looked for some divine explanation for the appearance of these strange and dangerous people. That is a universal human reaction. The outlandish is usually explained by labeling it in some way supernatural. And all that Cortez needed to perpetuate for his advantage was the apprehension that he might Quetzalcoatl. Or at least that he might have some divine powers. I absolutely did NOT mean that it is a universal reaction to worship white people as Gods. That certainly is a racist stereotype, and I do not htink that was implied by either of our statements. My position was simply that when powerful religious factors coincide with the appearance of of people of an unknown racial type in strange vessels from across the sea, there may be some apprehension at least that their technological prowess, strange dress, and strange animals may indicate soome divine or supernatural origin. Or at the very least, everyone might err on the side of caution just incase the weird new people have supernatural powers. In every account I have read of Moctezuma's reaction to the arrival of Cortez, I have imagined myself having the same reaction to Cortez. Basically "These guys are weird and tough, and just in case this IS Quetzalcoatl, I better be nice." I do not see how that can be equated with implying that all native people thought whites were Gods. That is unfair. The native americans who encountered the pilgrim settlers of New England thought they were weird looking, piteous, clueless people who were unable to care for themselves. >>2. But certainly not a sidekick in the Hollywood sense, nor was she a voluptuous seductress, and to turn her into that (rather than the embattled, enslaved, but highly intelligent survivor -- and probably a teenager -- that she was) is Hollywoodization of history at its worst. I agree, that is reprehensible. This woman may have had an amazing life, and her youth and coercion may explain her cooperation with Cortez. It was probably a matter of survival. political terror as well as for religious purposes. >> 3. So what does the absolutely exceptional case of late Tenochtitlan have to do with any mythical El Dorado? Why take the most objectional aspect of one society and make it emblematic of "Native" religion elsewhere, particularly if (as you recognize yourself) the use of sacrifice in late Tenochtitlan was more political than religious? (Especially if the film does not at the same time depict the abandon with which Europeans killed and raped in the course of their conquests.)>> Typical Disney, they are looking for something dramatic, it's that simple. And I think it probably ought to be boycotted if all that is being said about the film is true. >>My apologies to all for prolonging this discussion. I'll bow out now. David Frye >> I also apologize for prolonging this, particularly because this message was directed at Craig. I wanted to clear up any misperceptions people might have about my position, and I thought the comment about "natives thinking whites were gods" was unfair, neither of us said or would support such a position. History would not allow such a claim to stand. North American American settlement and exploration by Europeans is a history of conflict, not a history of worship. In every instance I can think of besides the conquest of the Mexica Empire, native people of the Americas have been quite willing to fight it out with European interlopers, or to trade with them out of compassion for their helplessness. I was speaking only to one remarkable chain of events in Mesoamerica, it was not a blanket statement or anything pertaining to race. Case Bodiford From XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com Sun Jan 23 21:22:01 2000 From: XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com (XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 14:22:01 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: "Art is a lie that makes us realize the truth." -- Pablo Picasso I plan on seeing this film and will watch it with the same skepticism I have watched other historically interpretive films such as "The Last Temptation of Christ" or "The Messenger." Being an art teacher and armchair film critic, I'll have ample opportunity to speak with the children in my life about race and representation in popular culture, not to mention their responsibility, as art-makers, to make people think with art. That's right. Good art makes people think. Spending my cash on a film that may or may not cast entire races and practices in stereotypical light does not equate with supporting the moral principles of the film or its makers. Boycotts are ineffective because they avoid the issues rather then meet them head-on. If we are to be warriors of knowledge we need to know what books and films (and websites!) our children are attracted to. This includes even really bad or misleading material. I look forward to seeing El Dorado precisely so I can post movie reviews to my non-Nahua related message forums, and make it clear were steroetpyes and misconceptions persist (if any at all). This film is not an obstacle. It is an opportunity with far-reaching potential. Anyone who wishes for a little more infomation before deciding whether to see this film may view the supporting website at http://www.roadtoeldorado.com or view the short movie trailer at http://www.enjoytheshow.com/trailerpark/0815yy.html Alison King From maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Sun Jan 23 22:11:01 2000 From: maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 15:11:01 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Most people refer to the idea that Cortes was mistaken for Quetzalcoatl as a real life example of Native Americans deifying white men. However, I challenge anybody to find a reference to Cortes as Quetzalcoatl that predates the 18th century.B by which time, the romanticization of the invasion as spiritual conquest was in full effect. For an alternative interpretation and understanding of Quetzalcoatl not as a white bearded man or anthropomorphic god, but rather as the barbed visage of the sun see: Paredez, Domingo Martinez. 1967 Un Ccontinente y Una Cultura. Mexico: Editorial Orion. On Sat, 22 Jan 2000, Craig Berry wrote: > On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com wrote: > > > Friends in the Native American Community shared this with me. > [snip] > > Once there, they encounter an ignorant group of savages who quickly=20 > > pronounce them ``Gods,=92=92 and an enticing, voluptuous native woman who=20 > > quickly takes on the role of faithful sidekick. Then, of course, there=92s t= > > he=20 > > fanatical native ``priest=92=92 who lusts for personal power and calls for h= > > uman=20 > > sacrifice. Portraying native people in this fashion is like passing off Al=20 > > Jolson and Amos & Andy as black culture. > > I'm sorry, but it's hard to characterize the movie as distorted history > (any more than most entertainments based on history) based on the above > alone. It is fairly clear that the possibility of Cortez being in some > sense Quetzalcoatl or at least his avatar or emissary did indeed > contribute to the Nahua paralysis in effectively dealing with the > Spaniards. A native woman, Malinche, did in fact become Cortez's > "sidekick" in short order, and played a crucial role in the conquest. And > native priests did in fact practice human sacrifice, and it's relatively > clear that at least in late Tenochtitlan mass sacrifice was used for > political terror as well as for religious purposes. > > So, precisely what are your objections? > > -- > | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net > --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html > | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace > of Wisdom" - William Blake > > From maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Sun Jan 23 22:25:47 2000 From: maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 15:25:47 -0700 Subject: Stereotyping in Anthro and Movies Message-ID: Thanks for taking control big chief On Sun, 23 Jan 2000, Craig Berry wrote: > On Sun, 23 Jan 2000 ECOLING at aol.com wrote: > > > My objection was to the overly quick dismissal > > of someone who was criticising a movie. > > Probably about time to wind this down; we all seem to have presented our > positions, and we could go around endlessly on this. > > Do note, however, that I was dismissing someone's criticism of a movie > *they had not seen*. Surely criticizing a movie not yet seen has to rank > high on the absurdity scale. > > And if you wish to offer criticism on the basis of "well, most movies on > this subject are bad, so this one probably is too" -- well, then, my > friend, you are commiting prejudice and bigotry, just as surely as anyone > else who applies general patterns to specific individuals without further > evidence. > > -- > | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net > --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html > | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace > of Wisdom" - William Blake > > From Richard.Haly at colorado.edu Mon Jan 24 06:40:34 2000 From: Richard.Haly at colorado.edu (Richard Haly) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:40:34 -0700 Subject: Spanish "Gods" Message-ID: > The entire > "Cortes-Quetzalcoatl" scenario appears only in the later accounts. While > it is fairly clear that Nahuas applied the term "teotl" to the Spanish > early on, it is also clear that the Spanish thought they were being called > "gods" and that they relished the idea, despite the fact that the Nahuas > never revered them as gods. To pretend that identifying "whites" as gods > is a generic "native" reaction to "superior strangers" is arguably racist.>> The problem with thinking that Nahuas considered Spaniards to be gods resides not in Nahua "naivete" nor in Spanish presumption but in our own unexamined assumptions of what gods are. If we go back to what Nahuas called Spaniards we find teotl and we also find that they spoke of their own rulers using the same term. The issue is not one of deifying Spaniards but of humanizing "gods." What is teotl? Recall that commoners could not look directly at Moteuczomah just as they could not look directly at the sun. Too much tonalli (radiance). They would be blinded. It is lots more productive to think of both Nahua rulers and Spaniards as these sort of man-gods. What I don't understand are all these stereotypical interpretations on either side. Perhaps it's time to again trot out a quote that appears every so often here: Walt Kelley (creator of Pogo): "We have met the enemy and he is us." Richard Haly From Amapohuani at aol.com Mon Jan 24 07:41:15 2000 From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 00:41:15 -0700 Subject: Need Nahuatl Sources Message-ID: Listeros: A sober treatment of "teotl" as applied to Spaniards can be found in James Lockhart's WE PEOPLE HERE (1993), pp. 19-20. In discussions like these specifics are needed. This is especially true if we are interested in what Nahuas of particular communities or areas (e.g., Valley of Mexico) actually said/wrote rather than what someone else (then or now) says they said/wrote. Perhaps someone on the list has the specific occurrences in texts like the FLORENTINE CODEX and can provide them. Then we can at least try to evaluate the original categories and terminology in Nahuatl rather than later translations/interpretations/misinterpretations. I find this particular thread potentially interesting. However it cannot be much more than a discussion of attitudes (with consequent flaming) if specifics are not provided. Ye ixquich. Barry D. Sell From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com Mon Jan 24 08:30:20 2000 From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 01:30:20 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Apology Message-ID: Respectful Greetings All My Brothers and Sisters, I want to thank all of my brothers and sisters who commented on the=20 stereotyping issue. As a human who cares about people, I only hoped to make=20 all of you fellow students of Native American language and culture aware of= =20 the film with its =93possible=94 problems. The message that was sent to me=20 through the Native American Network spoke to my heart. I made no judgement=20 about the content. I figured that you would do that for yourselves. I=20 forwarded the message exactly as it came to me. It is not my way to be combative, and I never expected that some of you,= =20 my elders, would react this way. I apologize for causing any hurt. I shared=20 the message only so that you might be ready to help out after the film came=20 out, by preparing your thoughts ahead of time. I am a California Chicano. During different periods of my life, I was t= o=20 told to =93remember the Alamo=94, I was called a =93dirty=94 Mexican, I was=20= told to=20 go back to Mexico, (my parents were born in California also), I waited in=20 markets where I was ignored until White customers were all served, and my=20 history teachers taught me that Mexicans lost the Southwest because they wer= e=20 too lazy and stupid to deserve to keep the land. (I really respected my=20 teachers, so those words hurt much more.) On television and in the movies=20 when I was growing up the best example of Mexican achievement was the ranch=20 hand =93Pepino=94 in =93The Real McCoys=94, my Indian brothers were always t= he=20 bloodthirsty savages in the cowboy movies, and the other portrayals of my=20 people included servants and law breakers. Things haven=92t changed much in=20 film and TV, we either don=92t exist or we=92re the hired hands, or the bad=20= guys.=20 Today my indigenous brothers are being evicted from their lands from Arizona= =20 to Chiapas. I=92m not looking for blame. I=92m part Native American and part Spanish= . I=20 accept that. I look for the beautiful in both my European and indigenous=20 cultures. The evil and hate that has been practiced in the past is a matter=20 of history. Let=92s learn from it in order not to repeat it. But I ask you m= y=20 brothers and sisters to help my people, especially the children, concentrate= =20 on the positive achievements of our indigenous people. I=92m a school teache= r=20 working in a barrio school for the last 27 years. I don=92t hide the=20 possibility/probabilty of human sacrifice. I try to help the kids understand= =20 why it might have happened, and how it was regarded by the people in=20 Mesoamerica, and how to relate it to the killing committed in modern times.=20 But I don=92t dwell on killing aspects of cultures. I dwell on the music,=20 poetry, art, mathematics, astronomy, and the beauty in the human spirit. I=20 enjoy pointing out Spanish words that have come from Nahuatl or Arabic. I=20 enjoy teaching children how to play the huehuetl, tlapitzalli, and the=20 teponaztli. I teach my students how to do a =93round=94 dance. The barrios are filled with my brothers and sisters who have lost pride=20 in who they are, only partly due to the negativity they encountered in the=20 media and their failures in school. Together let=92s light the =93new light= =94;=20 with your knowledge and encouragement the children can grow up being proud=20 of being Indian (and Spanish), learn more of about their languages and=20 cultures (including English), and become productive citizens of the society. Walk in beauty, Henry Vasquez From aztec at mail.utexas.edu Mon Jan 24 13:28:57 2000 From: aztec at mail.utexas.edu (Greg Whitworth) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 06:28:57 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Precisely, thank you for cutting to the heart of the issue here. For those who are interested in "thicker" (secondary) descriptions of life in Tenochtitlan as well as an interpretation of native accounts of the conquest please see Clendinnen's works: The Aztecs and "'Fierce and Unnatural Cruelty': Cortes and the Conquest of Mexico". Cheers, Greg Whitworth At 02:24 PM 1/23/00 -0700, you wrote: > >"Art is a lie that makes us realize the truth." -- Pablo Picasso > >I plan on seeing this film and will watch it with the same skepticism I have >watched other historically interpretive films such as "The Last Temptation of >Christ" or "The Messenger." Being an art teacher and armchair film critic, >I'll have ample opportunity to speak with the children in my life about race >and representation in popular culture, not to mention their responsibility, >as art-makers, to make people think with art. > >That's right. Good art makes people think. Spending my cash on a film that >may or may not cast entire races and practices in stereotypical light does >not equate with supporting the moral principles of the film or its makers. >Boycotts are ineffective because they avoid the issues rather then meet them >head-on. If we are to be warriors of knowledge we need to know what books >and films (and websites!) our children are attracted to. This includes even >really bad or misleading material. I look forward to seeing El Dorado >precisely so I can post movie reviews to my non-Nahua related message forums, >and make it clear were steroetpyes and misconceptions persist (if any at all). > >This film is not an obstacle. It is an opportunity with far-reaching >potential. > >Anyone who wishes for a little more infomation before deciding whether to see >this film may view the supporting website at http://www.roadtoeldorado.com or >view the short movie trailer at >http://www.enjoytheshow.com/trailerpark/0815yy.html > >Alison King > From cberry at cinenet.net Mon Jan 24 17:09:20 2000 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:09:20 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Apology Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jan 2000 HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com wrote: [snip] > It is not my way to be combative, and I never expected that some of you,= > =20 > my elders, would react this way. I apologize for causing any hurt. I shared=20 > the message only so that you might be ready to help out after the film came=20 > out, by preparing your thoughts ahead of time. No hurt was caused, so your apology is unnecessary. Debate harms nobody, and examination of assumptions, cultural contexts, and approaches to historical awareness is always productive. [snip] > But I don=92t dwell on killing aspects of cultures. I dwell on the music,=20 > poetry, art, mathematics, astronomy, and the beauty in the human spirit. I=20 > enjoy pointing out Spanish words that have come from Nahuatl or Arabic. I=20 > enjoy teaching children how to play the huehuetl, tlapitzalli, and the=20 > teponaztli. I teach my students how to do a =93round=94 dance. Your students are extremely fortunate to have you as a teacher, and we are all equally fortunate to have you teaching them. This is the hope of coming years. Thank you. Regards, Craig -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom" - William Blake From cberry at cinenet.net Mon Jan 24 17:12:54 2000 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:12:54 -0700 Subject: Spanish "Gods" Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Jan 2000, Richard Haly wrote: > The problem with thinking that Nahuas considered Spaniards to be gods > resides not in Nahua "naivete" nor in Spanish presumption but in our own > unexamined assumptions of what gods are. If we go back to what Nahuas > called Spaniards we find teotl and we also find that they spoke of their > own rulers using the same term. The issue is not one of deifying > Spaniards but of humanizing "gods." What is teotl? Recall that commoners > could not look directly at Moteuczomah just as they could not look > directly at the sun. Too much tonalli (radiance). They would be blinded. > It is lots more productive to think of both Nahua rulers and Spaniards > as these sort of man-gods. Good discussion of the term. I have always summarized 'teotl' for my own purposes as 'extreme, unusual, or supernatural.' A good example is the Nahua coinage 'teomazatl' for 'horse' -- it's like a deer, kind of, but incredibly unusual and extremely big for a deer. Another way to put the definition might be 'far outside everyday experience' (which is really just another way to say 'supernatural', I suppose). The thing about 'teteo' is that, being outside normal experience, you never know what powers they might have or what they might do. If you go to fight Tlaxcallans or Huaxtec, you don't necessarily know their precise battle plans or numbers, but you know how they'll fight, where they'll fight, what their goals are, what they will and won't do in combat, and so forth. Once classified as teotl, the Spaniards moved into a category characterized by unpredictability at a terrifying level. There is no shame in being reluctant to fight someone who has already shown capabilities and behaviors never before seen, and who therefore might have unknown additional powers in reserve. > What I don't understand are all these stereotypical interpretations on > either side. Perhaps it's time to again trot out a quote that appears > every so often here: Walt Kelley (creator of Pogo): "We have met the > enemy and he is us." That's a good quote to *always* have near at hand. :) -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom" - William Blake From fjgs at servidor.unam.mx Mon Jan 24 17:28:11 2000 From: fjgs at servidor.unam.mx (Ehecatecolotl) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:28:11 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Sunday, January 23, 2000 5:32 AM Subject: Re: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People >Hey Case Bodiford, > Blah blah blah blah blah. Zan yolic, zan yolic niniuhtzin, ahmo xiyolpozoni. Let the deeds and their weight of each one, be the burden to bear. Ehecatecolotl From ECOLING at aol.com Mon Jan 24 17:44:24 2000 From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:44:24 -0700 Subject: No need for apology Message-ID: Henry Vasquez: A beautiful statement. You have abolutely no need to apologize. My own reaction was not my best, because it was late at night, and because I have seen the kind of insensitivity which has affected you so many many times, I am getting sick of it, and sometimes I am not as carefully manipulative in my response as ethics calls for me to be (in order to effect change). Anyhow, once again, you owe no one any apology. It was the attack on you that got me so angry. lloyd Anderson Ecological Linguistics From fjgs at servidor.unam.mx Mon Jan 24 17:59:47 2000 From: fjgs at servidor.unam.mx (Ehecatecolotl) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:59:47 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Sterile talk is agression at best Don't waste your energy at it. Ehecatecolotl >> Hey Case Bodiford, >> Blah blah blah blah blah. > >You know, Yaoxochitl, your ancestors valued eloquence in public speaking >very highly. Perhaps this would be one aspect of their culture you might >consider emulating... From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Mon Jan 24 22:25:25 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:25:25 -0700 Subject: Campbell & Karttunen text Message-ID: Dear Subscribers, Due to increases in costs here at The University of Montana, the price of the 2 volume Campbell & Karttunen, Foundation Couse in Nahuatl Grammar, has increased to $40.00 for the two volumes, shipping and handling included. The cost including shipment to Europe is $71.00. http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/hotlinks.htm J. F. Schwaller List Owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Mon Jan 24 22:41:09 2000 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:41:09 -0700 Subject: Campbell & Karttunen text Message-ID: John F. Schwaller wrote: |Due to increases in costs here at The University of Montana, the price of |the 2 volume Campbell & Karttunen, Foundation Couse in Nahuatl Grammar, has |increased to $40.00 for the two volumes, shipping and handling included. |The cost including shipment to Europe is $71.00. | |http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/hotlinks.htm For those of us blessed with term programs unable to decode .htm crud, how about a snailmail address? From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Mon Jan 24 22:55:36 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:55:36 -0700 Subject: Campbell & Karttunen text Message-ID: At 03:43 PM 1/24/2000 -0700, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > >John F. Schwaller wrote: >|Due to increases in costs here at The University of Montana, the price of >|the 2 volume Campbell & Karttunen, Foundation Couse in Nahuatl Grammar, has >|increased to $40.00 for the two volumes, shipping and handling included. >|The cost including shipment to Europe is $71.00. > >For those of us blessed with term programs unable to decode .htm crud, >how about a snailmail address? > Dr. J. F. Schwaller Office of the Provost The University of Montana 32 Campus Dr, #3324 Missoula, MT 59812 John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From CBodif9907 at aol.com Tue Jan 25 00:18:35 2000 From: CBodif9907 at aol.com (CBodif9907 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:18:35 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Apology Message-ID: I think the debate was beneficial. The flaming on the list just shows how passionate people are about defending and preserving Nahua culture. I have no doubt that with more people like yourself Mr. Vasquez, awareness of cultural heritage and pride in it will continue to grow. Case Bodiford From cristi at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 25 02:26:29 2000 From: cristi at ix.netcom.com (cristi at ix.netcom.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:26:29 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Apology Message-ID: Henry, your story made me cry. I so wish that the gentle people of America didn't have to keep suffering this kind of pain. I'm glad that you are out there, teaching. You're so needed. I did want to take a moment to comment on this: > working in a barrio school for the last 27 years. I don=92t hide the=20 > possibility/probabilty of human sacrifice. I try to help the kids understand= > =20 > why it might have happened, and how it was regarded by the people in=20 > Mesoamerica, and how to relate it to the killing committed in modern times.=20 > But I don=92t dwell on killing aspects of cultures. It's a good thing to discuss, if only because white historians and conquistadors emphasized it so much. However, I do want to keep emphasizing: every single culture that I can think of has sacrificed human beings regularly at some time in its history. In fact, it was documented in the Bible as being practiced in Israel. Of *course* that bothers me, being a Jew, but hey--there it is. Almost all cultures have practiced cannibalism, if not all of them. (Probably, in fact, all of them). I think that if children need to know about middle American sacrifice, they need to know this as well! My feeling is that the middle Americans practiced sacrifice longer than (most) other cultures because #1 they were subjected to far greater threats from their environment, and #2 they have had a far rockier geological past than the rest of the planet's peoples. Although we have no written, validated, white-man's histories of what the American peoples have been through, I do believe their own oral histories--and the geological evidence of the catastrophes *abounds.* I think they were locked into a position of a feeling of total dependence on sacrifice for their very survival, and that it was-- rightfully so--inspired by these environmental threats. (Drought, vulcanism, earthquake, meteors, etc.). I also think that the way they formed their religion around it--in a way that minimized the suffering and ugliness of it and emphasized the dignity and the rewards--helped perpetuate it. Human sacrifice in other cultures was far more brutal. I *do* think that it really happened. And I *do* believe that it was *absolutely* nothing to be ashamed of. If I were an Azteca, I would without a doubt have participated happily in those rituals...after all, if it were to only way for my people to survive... Just some thoughts. Cristi From CCBtlevine at aol.com Mon Jan 24 18:25:43 2000 From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:25:43 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: In a message dated 01/23/2000 9:14:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, mexicapride at earthlink.net writes: << as a person of Mexika-Chichimeka descent, here is my reasoning on why I will boycott this "animated" distortion of history. >> Tekpatltzin, This is a little off of the subject. But, I am very much interested in your family stories or traditions that allow you to trace yourself back to the Mexika-Chichimeka. Tom Levine From cristi at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 25 12:44:22 2000 From: cristi at ix.netcom.com (cristi at ix.netcom.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 05:44:22 -0700 Subject: about your views... Message-ID: Yaoxochitl wrote to me: My reply to Yaoxochitl: An excess of exciting, passionate verbiage, insults, imprecations, and name-calling does absolutely nothing to persuade others to your point of view. I thought your people were known for their oratory skills--but perhaps you neglected to learn those skills, since they were just more "lyes" by dirty white people, eh? I have absolutely no intention of playing your silly game and trying to argue any of this with you, or to rationally discuss my sources etc., since I already know you to be a person who listens to no one at all, preferring to believe only what his fears and insecurities tell him to believe (forever after, for better or for worse). I absolutely don't give even a tiny fig what you think. That probably comes as a complete surprise to you, eh? > Hell, you even called my ancestors, "Azteca!" If you knew > anything about my people then you would at least get the name right! We were > and still called the Mexicah(Meh-Shee-Kah). Any college student knows that > the term "aztec" is a misnomer created by 19th century scholars! On the contrary, Mexica is what YOUR ancestors were called. I was referring to the Azteca, including ALL of the peoples in that region who spoke Nahuatl, not just your poor, overburdened little group. Properly, I should have included the Maya as well. So please, > do me a favor, have the decency to research before you "feel" or "think" > about a subject you know nothing about. Please do me the favor of having the *guts* to post these kinds of "opinions" publicly, rather than personally, to listmembers. Cristi From godkillah at hotmail.com Tue Jan 25 17:11:12 2000 From: godkillah at hotmail.com (Kurly Tlapoyahua) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:11:12 -0700 Subject: "Gods" and "Sacrifice" Message-ID: Recent statements have been made regarding the concept of "Gods" and human sacrifice among the Aztekah/Mexikah people. Most of this discussion has been dominated by Europeans who use European texts as their primary sources. Perhaps an Indigenous perspective on this subject is needed. I offer the following: Sahagun, Duran and others eh? Hmmn sounds like a shady bunch of characters to me. I suppose if the Nazis took it upon themselves to write the history of the jews we would be using their texts as primary sources as well? "Informants" were actually what we we call "Praying Indians" - those who sided with the Spaniards and against their own people. These were the only cats who were even taught how to read and write in Latin characters, and even then under the watchful eye of their Spanish masters. These same "informants" would be killed if their writings did not reflect the views of their masters. Thats something to consider. Also, the Spaniards had just spent the last few hundred years conducting smear campaigns against the Moors and jews. Why would they be doing anything different here? Second, the idea of "Gods" did not even exist among Anawak societies. The term Teotl has mistakenly been translated as "God" - possibly because it is similar in pronunciation to "Theos." But hey, if you repeat a lie enough times, people no longer question the validity of it, they just accept it as truth. Yet this lie seems just as ingrained as the myth of sacrifice. Ketzalkotal (Which translates to "beautiful and upstanding Serpent" NOT "Feathered serpent" as many would like to believe) was a titl egiven to men adn women who had achievd enlightenment, and transceneded their human-ness. A man named Ze Akatl Topilztin was porbably the most noted person to hold this title. The spaniards were called "teuleh" by the Mexika - a term which means "stinky" or "smellY" - (why do you think they were bathed in Kopal smoke and flowers) so much for European dillusions of grandeur. No reliable records exist which indicate sacrifice ever existed (though the Spanirds did manage to torture a couple of confessions out of a couple of Mayans - which in iteslf means nothing, Salem witch trials anyone?) The Mexika did, however, have a very strict legal system. Drunkennes, theft, adultery, etc. were punishable by death. The criminals would have their heads removed, cleaned, and placed on display (the famous skull racks) a strong detereent to any would-be criminal. (BTW the number of skulls on dsplay was greatly exagerated by the Spaniards) Cortez was allowed to enter Mexiko-Tenochtitlan for a number of reasons: He announed that he and his people were represnetatives of a far-away kingdom and he gave no indications of intent to wage war, he arrived during a time when warfare was traditionaly not waged (most warriors were tending to crops and fields at this time), It was custom to recieve representatives of other nations in good faith. My sources? Well, I have done most of my research while living in Mexiko. So these might be hard to find: Juicio A Espana - Xokonoschtletl Los Gobiernos Socialistas de Anahuac - Dr. Romero Vargas Iturbide Mosaico De Turquesas - Arturo Meza Gutierrez Calendiaro Mexicano - Aruro Meza Gutierrez Esplendor de la cultura Anahuac - Miguel Angel Mendoza Invasion o Conquista - Akamapichtli Human sacrifice among the Aztecs - fact or fantasy? - Dr.Peter Hassler There are literally hundreds of books such as these. Most I own, and far too many to list here. PS - funny that only Post-conquest codices have any references to "sacrifice" - has anybody ever bothered to even question why? In Mexikayoyeliztli Aik Ixpoliuz "Kurly" Tlapoyawa Also, I am not a member of this listerve, any responses can be made to me at: Godkillah at Hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mictlan at hooked.net Tue Jan 25 17:38:32 2000 From: mictlan at hooked.net (mictlacihuatl) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:38:32 -0700 Subject: about your views... Message-ID: I've been pretty quiet during this whole thread (as usual) but damn does it get anymore arrogant and reactionary than this, CRISTI? Other people? Figures... In mexicayotl yeliztli aik ixpoliuiz! -Mictlacihuatl At 05:45 AM 1/25/00 -0700, you wrote: >Yaoxochitl wrote to me: > >opinions, and Europeans in general, using epithets like: > > racist, >ethnocentric, and paternalistic presumptions > xenophobia and a wrath >of ignorance >grossly disorted picture of "history" and >fostering nothing more than this fantastic lye. >spoon-fed you in high >school, >absurd conclusion >dont rant >and rave about some biased, racist spanish friar >your views are based on sentimental evasions, quick certainties, >and >easy slogans. >So please, >do me a favor, have the decency to research before you "feel" or >"think" >about a subject you know nothing about.> > >My reply to Yaoxochitl: > >An excess of exciting, passionate verbiage, insults, imprecations, >and name-calling does absolutely nothing to persuade others to >your point of view. I thought your people were known for their >oratory skills--but perhaps you neglected to learn those skills, >since they were just more "lyes" by dirty white people, eh? I have >absolutely no intention of playing your silly game and trying to >argue any of this with you, or to rationally discuss my sources >etc., since I already know you to be a person who listens to no one >at all, preferring to believe only what his fears and insecurities tell >him to believe (forever after, for better or for worse). I absolutely >don't give even a tiny fig what you think. That probably comes as a >complete surprise to you, eh? > >> Hell, you even called my ancestors, "Azteca!" If you knew >> anything about my people then you would at least get the name right! We were >> and still called the Mexicah(Meh-Shee-Kah). Any college student knows that >> the term "aztec" is a misnomer created by 19th century scholars! > >On the contrary, Mexica is what YOUR ancestors were called. I >was referring to the Azteca, including ALL of the peoples in that >region who spoke Nahuatl, not just your poor, overburdened little >group. Properly, I should have included the Maya as well. > >So please, >> do me a favor, have the decency to research before you "feel" or "think" >> about a subject you know nothing about. > >Please do me the favor of having the *guts* to post these kinds of >"opinions" publicly, rather than personally, to listmembers. > >Cristi > From scalderon at spin.com.mx Tue Jan 25 18:28:20 2000 From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:28:20 -0700 Subject: my page on nahuatl Message-ID: I`ve made a page with some nahuatl links, that you may find interesting. Salvador Calderon From malinal at evhr.net Tue Jan 25 19:53:40 2000 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:53:40 -0700 Subject: my page on nahuatl Message-ID: >I`ve made a page with some nahuatl links, that you may find interesting. > >Salvador Calderon > where can we find your page? please. A.Wimmer From scalderon at spin.com.mx Tue Jan 25 20:34:10 2000 From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:34:10 -0700 Subject: my page on nahuatl Message-ID: I don't know where I have my head lately, here is the URL: http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/nahuatl.html ----- Original Message ----- From: alexis wimmer To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 1:56 PM Subject: Re: my page on nahuatl > > > >I`ve made a page with some nahuatl links, that you may find interesting. > > > >Salvador Calderon > > > > where can we find your page? please. > > A.Wimmer > > From bnelson at asu.edu Tue Jan 25 23:23:54 2000 From: bnelson at asu.edu (Ben Nelson) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:23:54 -0700 Subject: Luminous brujas Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF6789.556B2E32 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Maybe it takes us too far afield, but these accounts are strikingly similar in some ways to ones that I got in the Maya Highlands (Chuj region). Beings called "Chiapas" live in the cerros, where they keep great stores of tequila and food, which they can hurl from one mountaintop to another. These beings are spirit-extensions of individual humans and can mediate for them in the living world. They can be seen on clear nights as luminous dwarfs who slide smoothly through the air just above the ground. Under such circumstances, it can be dangerous to encounter one, but they can also do good. Not everyone can see them, and they are almost never seen in the rainy season. Ben Nelson -----Original Message----- From: David L. Frye [mailto:dfrye at umich.edu] Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 8:57 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Firefly Lore Likewise in Mexquitic, SLP (one of the former Tlaxcalan settlements in the north, where Nahuatl was spoken until 1850 or so). "Brujas" (there is no nahuatl word used) are seen as lights dancing along the hills at night, and are said to come into houses to suck people dry -- why else do old people look so wrinkled, after all? But in the three years I lived in Mexquitic I don't recall ever seeing a firefly -- too high & dry, I suppose. The "naturalistic" explanation of the lights would probably be lightning flashes. > This meshes neatly with what J.L. McKeever Furst writes about of people in > the same region, whose "major worry is the witch, or nahualli, a terrifying > and malevolent being whose activities are known in catastrophies, misfortune > and illnesses, whose lanterns dance along trails at night." > Lights are also associated with "the tlahuepoches, or dangerous nocturnal > birds that suck blood from adults (but prefer the blood of infants) through lo > ng beaks they use as suction tubes." .... "In Alta, these fearsome > tlahuepoches either carry lights or emit a glow themselves." ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF6789.556B2E32 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Luminous brujas

Maybe it takes us too far afield, but these accounts = are strikingly similar in some ways to ones that I got in the Maya = Highlands (Chuj region).  Beings called "Chiapas" live = in the cerros, where they keep great stores of tequila and food, which = they can hurl from one mountaintop to another.  These beings are = spirit-extensions of individual humans and can mediate for them in the = living world.  They can be seen on clear nights as luminous dwarfs = who slide smoothly through the air just above the ground.  Under = such circumstances, it can be dangerous to encounter one, but they can = also do good.  Not everyone can see them, and they are almost = never seen in the rainy season.

Ben Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: David L. Frye [mailto:dfrye at umich.edu]
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 8:57 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: Firefly Lore


Likewise in Mexquitic, SLP (one of the former = Tlaxcalan settlements in the
north, where Nahuatl was spoken until 1850 or so). = "Brujas" (there is no
nahuatl word used) are seen as lights dancing along = the hills at night,
and are said to come into houses to suck people dry = -- why else do old
people look so wrinkled, after all? But in the three = years I lived in
Mexquitic I don't recall ever seeing a firefly -- = too high & dry, I
suppose. The "naturalistic" explanation of = the lights would probably be
lightning flashes.

> This meshes neatly with what J.L. McKeever Furst = writes about of people in
> the same region, whose "major worry is the = witch, or nahualli, a terrifying
> and malevolent being whose activities are known = in catastrophies, misfortune
> and illnesses, whose lanterns dance along = trails at night."
> Lights are also associated with "the = tlahuepoches, or dangerous nocturnal
> birds that suck blood from adults (but prefer = the blood of infants) through lo
> ng beaks they use as suction tubes." .... = "In Alta, these fearsome
> tlahuepoches either carry lights or emit a glow = themselves."

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF6789.556B2E32-- From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Wed Jan 26 01:58:45 2000 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:58:45 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl Comics by Snailmail? Message-ID: Surely somebody somewhere offers by snailmail a monthly comic strip in Nahuatl? If you know of one, even if it is just a home-business operation, I'd like to hear about it. From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx Wed Jan 26 02:13:37 2000 From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:13:37 -0700 Subject: digital camaras and colonial documents Message-ID: Someone suggested to me that a portable and cheap way to get around photocopying, microfilming or scanning documents in colonial archives would be a digital camara. Can anybody give me some advice on this. I will be using a Macintosh G-3 portable computer. As far as the camara goes, obviously it would have to be able to take close up pictures from a tripod, and the image would have to be good enough to read the manuscripts. I tried e-mailing Canon, but their web page doesn't accept foreign e-mails (So much for globalization!). Any suggestions? John Sullivan Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas From Kexa14 at aol.com Wed Jan 26 07:36:03 2000 From: Kexa14 at aol.com (Kexa14 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 00:36:03 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl Comics by Snailmail? Message-ID: I would like to take part in that to so please send it my way too! From Wulifu at aol.com Wed Jan 26 15:04:17 2000 From: Wulifu at aol.com (Wulifu at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:04:17 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Mr. Bodiford, Your argument comes across as well-reasoned and articulate, and, most importantly, sincere. It was not at all boring. Chuck Oliver From Wulifu at aol.com Wed Jan 26 15:18:53 2000 From: Wulifu at aol.com (Wulifu at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:18:53 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Tekpatltzin, With your eloquence, sensitivity and compassion, it would be wonderful if you could write material about your people and their history for children of the Americas. More and more such books exist; I bought several for young relatives and friends recently. They DO have an impact. Interestingly, I first developed an interest in Mexican culture while reading a National Geographic article on the Aztecs which did mention and illustrate, among other things, human sacrifice. In my case, my interest in the culture grew, my reading expanded and I eventually became convinced that the European conquest of the Americas involved one of the greatest cultural crimes of all times, a true series of genocides. And, everyone who listens to my views on the subject knows how strongly I believe that. The point is that even negative and neutral images can plant the seed that produces a deeper and more comprehensive understanding. Of course, the positive images, unless they are maudlin and obviously propagandistic, are more valuable. Chuck Oliver From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Wed Jan 26 15:33:10 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:33:10 -0700 Subject: digital camaras and colonial documents Message-ID: For many years, now decades, I have shot my own microfilm. It is simple, easy, cheap, and when they let you do it a great alternative. All it takes is a single lense reflex camera, a tripod, a flash and high resolution black and white film. In fact the film is so forgiving that you can develop it yourself... I have literally scores of rolls of microfilm I shot myself dating back to the early '70s J. F. Schwaller John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From Wulifu at aol.com Wed Jan 26 15:36:06 2000 From: Wulifu at aol.com (Wulifu at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:36:06 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Apology Message-ID: You appear to be a real teacher and will undoubtedly impart wisdom to those who hear you. From heatherhess at hotmail.com Wed Jan 26 20:24:10 2000 From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:24:10 -0700 Subject: Spanish "Gods" Message-ID: I want to reply to this subject on a very personal note. I am Canadian and have spent much of my last few years in Mexico. I have had varied experiences learning Nahautl and am associated with Aztec Dancers so have first hand information. These people that are my friends are hospitable before anything ' they open up their doors ' give you food ' hospitality ' anything I ever need is just there. The Spaniards when they came also received a warm welcome but abused and took advantage of the Aztecas! I can only say that if only the rest of the world could learn to open up their doors to people the way Mexicans do we wouldn�t have so much trouble in the world right now! We must quit worrying about trivialities and get down to the basics! We as a tiny particle of this world must learn to once again respect and be open to people more than we are to material goods ' movies fit into that category ' movies are for entertainment ' they are not to be taken seriously ' people that see movies come to their own conclusions ' people that are aware will realize the misgivings of what is popular in the eyes of the public ' those that are not aware ' well ' for them there is no hope! Forgive the format of this message ' I have to pay for computer time so didn�t stop to format this opinion! Itzpapalotzin >From: Richard Haly >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Spanish "Gods" >Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:41:01 -0700 > > > The entire > > "Cortes-Quetzalcoatl" scenario appears only in the later accounts. While > > it is fairly clear that Nahuas applied the term "teotl" to the Spanish > > early on, it is also clear that the Spanish thought they were being >called > > "gods" and that they relished the idea, despite the fact that the Nahuas > > never revered them as gods. To pretend that identifying "whites" as gods > > is a generic "native" reaction to "superior strangers" is arguably >racist.>> > >The problem with thinking that Nahuas considered Spaniards to be gods >resides not in Nahua "naivete" nor in Spanish presumption but in our own >unexamined assumptions of what gods are. If we go back to what Nahuas >called >Spaniards we find teotl and we also find that they spoke of their own >rulers >using the same term. The issue is not one of deifying Spaniards but of >humanizing "gods." What is teotl? Recall that commoners could not look >directly at Moteuczomah just as they could not look directly at the sun. >Too >much tonalli (radiance). They would be blinded. It is lots more productive >to think of both Nahua rulers and Spaniards as these sort of man-gods. > >What I don't understand are all these stereotypical interpretations on >either side. Perhaps it's time to again trot out a quote that appears every >so often here: Walt Kelley (creator of Pogo): "We have met the enemy and he >is us." > >Richard Haly > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From heatherhess at hotmail.com Wed Jan 26 20:40:37 2000 From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:40:37 -0700 Subject: Spanish "Gods" Message-ID: Woops - This should have been directed to the Movie Chat ' not the Spanish God thread! Itzpapalotzin >From: "Heather Hess" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Spanish "Gods" >Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:24:47 -0700 > >I want to reply to this subject on a very personal note. I am Canadian and >have spent much of my last few years in Mexico. I have had varied >experiences learning Nahautl and am associated with Aztec Dancers so have >first hand information. These people that are my friends are hospitable >before anything ' they open up their doors ' give you food ' hospitality ' >anything I ever need is just there. The Spaniards when they came also >received a warm welcome but abused and took advantage of the Aztecas! I >can >only say that if only the rest of the world could learn to open up their >doors to people the way Mexicans do we wouldn�t have so much trouble in the >world right now! We must quit worrying about trivialities and get down to >the basics! We as a tiny particle of this world must learn to once again >respect and be open to people more than we are to material goods ' movies >fit into that category ' movies are for entertainment ' they are not to be >taken seriously ' people that see movies come to their own conclusions ' >people that are aware will realize the misgivings of what is popular in the >eyes of the public ' those that are not aware ' well ' for them there is no >hope! Forgive the format of this message ' I have to pay for computer time >so didn�t stop to format this opinion! > >Itzpapalotzin > > > >From: Richard Haly > >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > >To: Multiple recipients of list > >Subject: Spanish "Gods" > >Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:41:01 -0700 > > > > > The entire > > > "Cortes-Quetzalcoatl" scenario appears only in the later accounts. >While > > > it is fairly clear that Nahuas applied the term "teotl" to the Spanish > > > early on, it is also clear that the Spanish thought they were being > >called > > > "gods" and that they relished the idea, despite the fact that the >Nahuas > > > never revered them as gods. To pretend that identifying "whites" as >gods > > > is a generic "native" reaction to "superior strangers" is arguably > >racist.>> > > > >The problem with thinking that Nahuas considered Spaniards to be gods > >resides not in Nahua "naivete" nor in Spanish presumption but in our own > >unexamined assumptions of what gods are. If we go back to what Nahuas > >called > >Spaniards we find teotl and we also find that they spoke of their own > >rulers > >using the same term. The issue is not one of deifying Spaniards but of > >humanizing "gods." What is teotl? Recall that commoners could not look > >directly at Moteuczomah just as they could not look directly at the sun. > >Too > >much tonalli (radiance). They would be blinded. It is lots more >productive > >to think of both Nahua rulers and Spaniards as these sort of man-gods. > > > >What I don't understand are all these stereotypical interpretations on > >either side. Perhaps it's time to again trot out a quote that appears >every > >so often here: Walt Kelley (creator of Pogo): "We have met the enemy and >he > >is us." > > > >Richard Haly > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From carlos.robles at valeo.com Wed Jan 26 21:42:13 2000 From: carlos.robles at valeo.com (carlos.robles at valeo.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:42:13 -0700 Subject: Not really about Spanish "Gods" Message-ID: Your comment is accurate, not exactly about the original mentioned subj= ect but very good. I am Mexican and I feel more proud of my Mexican part rather than my Sp= anish one, as you know we are the result of a mix of local inhabitants depend= ing on the region, Spaniards and Arabs who conquested Spain for 7 centuries. I= have been in Spain and the people is not very nice neither with foreign peop= le nor with people from different Spanish regions. But my real interest is to emphasize that the language?s morphology ref= lect their speaking people habits, morals and behaviors. The Nahuatl has three different speaking formats: plain, formal and ve= ry formal; the way the pure Aztecs were ennobling the human being. And the words themselves reflect the regard people has to others, for i= nstance "Tlasohkamahtli", Thanks means literately ?love to you through my mouth= ?. I hope this message do not offend Spaniards but It is true. Best regards And thanks for your comment. "Heather Hess" on 26/01/2000 02:25:20 PM Please respond to nahuat-l at server.umt.edu To: Multiple recipients of list cc: (bcc: Carlos ROBLES/Sanluis/VWS/VALEO) Subject: Re: Spanish "Gods" = I want to reply to this subject on a very personal note. I am Canadian= and have spent much of my last few years in Mexico. I have had varied experiences learning Nahautl and am associated with Aztec Dancers so ha= ve first hand information. These people that are my friends are hospitabl= e before anything ' they open up their doors ' give you food ' hospitalit= y ' anything I ever need is just there. The Spaniards when they came also received a warm welcome but abused and took advantage of the Aztecas! = I can only say that if only the rest of the world could learn to open up thei= r doors to people the way Mexicans do we wouldn=B4t have so much trouble = in the world right now! We must quit worrying about trivialities and get down= to the basics! We as a tiny particle of this world must learn to once aga= in respect and be open to people more than we are to material goods ' movi= es fit into that category ' movies are for entertainment ' they are not to= be taken seriously ' people that see movies come to their own conclusions = ' people that are aware will realize the misgivings of what is popular in= the eyes of the public ' those that are not aware ' well ' for them there i= s no hope! Forgive the format of this message ' I have to pay for computer = time so didn=B4t stop to format this opinion! Itzpapalotzin >From: Richard Haly >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Spanish "Gods" >Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:41:01 -0700 > > > The entire > > "Cortes-Quetzalcoatl" scenario appears only in the later accounts. = While > > it is fairly clear that Nahuas applied the term "teotl" to the Span= ish > > early on, it is also clear that the Spanish thought they were being= >called > > "gods" and that they relished the idea, despite the fact that the N= ahuas > > never revered them as gods. To pretend that identifying "whites" as= gods > > is a generic "native" reaction to "superior strangers" is arguably >racist.>> > >The problem with thinking that Nahuas considered Spaniards to be gods >resides not in Nahua "naivete" nor in Spanish presumption but in our o= wn >unexamined assumptions of what gods are. If we go back to what Nahuas >called >Spaniards we find teotl and we also find that they spoke of their own >rulers >using the same term. The issue is not one of deifying Spaniards but o= f >humanizing "gods." What is teotl? Recall that commoners could not look= >directly at Moteuczomah just as they could not look directly at the su= n. >Too >much tonalli (radiance). They would be blinded. It is lots more produc= tive >to think of both Nahua rulers and Spaniards as these sort of man-gods.= > >What I don't understand are all these stereotypical interpretations on= >either side. Perhaps it's time to again trot out a quote that appears = every >so often here: Walt Kelley (creator of Pogo): "We have met the enemy a= nd he >is us." > >Richard Haly > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com = From Yaoxochitl at aol.com Thu Jan 27 01:12:41 2000 From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:12:41 -0700 Subject: Spanish "Gods" Message-ID: Itzpapalotzin, But movies are taken seriously, especially if the subject matter is controversial. "Last Temptation of Christ" was blasted by christians, denouncing the movie for its "blasphemous" illustration of jesus. In a society where entertainment molds and influences our standards and practices, the images can be culturally damaging to a targeted ethnic group. What would African-americans do if the entertainment industry promoted a performance of black-faced "mammy" dancers as a tribute to Al Joleson? Does that encapsulate of what an African-american is like? Or would it be right to portray Native-americans as crazy drunks in movies? The point is, absurd inaccuracies, like in the movie, "El Dorado", targeted at an ethnic group can be very hurtful and painful. From malinal at evhr.net Thu Jan 27 14:24:09 2000 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:24:09 -0700 Subject: Spanish "Gods" Message-ID: Richard Haly wrote: >The problem with thinking that Nahuas considered Spaniards to be gods >resides not in Nahua "naivete" nor in Spanish presumption but in our own >unexamined assumptions of what gods are. If we go back to what Nahuas called >Spaniards we find teotl and we also find that they spoke of their own rulers >using the same term. The issue is not one of deifying Spaniards but of >humanizing "gods." I apologize for scriving French but my English is very too bad. Quelques remarques sur les Espagnols consid�r�s comme des dieux. 1. Je ne comprends pas pourquoi Cort�s et ses compagnons ont �t� si fiers d� �tre pris pour des �teules�. Puisqu�ils ont tr�s t�t consid�r� les dieux du Mexique comme des d�mons �pouvantables. 2. Il n�est pas du tout s�r que le terme � teotl � / � teteoh � appliqu� aux Espagnols par les Azt�ques se rapporte � l�id�e d�une sup�riorit� des envahisseurs, pas m�me � leur inqui�tante �tranget�, cette id�e d��tranget� est exprim� en nahuatl par le morph�me � tetzauh � / � tetzhuitl � et pas par le morph�me � teo-tl �. 3. Je suis tr�s interess� par l�id�e qu�il s�agit moins d�une divinisation des Espagnols que � humanisation � des dieux. 4. Mais cette humanisation des dieux ne doit pas �tre confondue avec l� anthropomorphisation des dieux par les Grecs ou par les Romains (statue d� Apollon ou d�Athena). 5. Je ne suis pas s�r que les Azt�ques aient couramment repr�sent� leurs dieux sous des traits humains. Cf. la c�l�bre statue de Coatlicue. 6. Ce que l�on prend le plus souvent pour des images des dieux azt�ques (dans les calendriers comme le Borbonicus par exemple) sont en r�alit� des images d�hommes ou de femmes qui dans les f�tes repr�sentent les dieux en portant leur costume et ou leur parure traditionnelle. 7. Ces hommes et ces femmes v�tus comme des dieux et qui incarnent ou repr�sentent les dieux (� in ixiptlahhuan in teteoh �) sont aussi appel�s du nom du dieu qu�ils incarnent. Il sont eux m�me appel�s �dieu�, � teotl �. 8. Ces hommes et ces femmes sont parfois des pr�tres, mais ce sont dans l� immense majorit� des cas des ennemis vaincus, des esclaves achet�s sur le march� d�Azcapotzalco, des prostitu�es ou courtisanes, ce sont les plus souvent des ETRANGERS. 9. Ces esclaves, ces vaincus, ces �trangers, ces parias sont en quelque mani�re, le temps d�une f�te, des �dieux� ILS SONT LES DIEUX et on les entoure de beaucoup de soins mais on ne leur rend pas de culte. Ils serviront au culte. Les textes disent qu�on les sacrifiera aux dieux. En conclusion mon hypoth�se est que lorsque les Azt�ques disent que les Espagnols sont des Dieux ils ne disent pas autre chose que : �ce sont des �trangers� (je n�ose pas ajouter : tout juste bons � �tre sacrifi�s). A.Wimmer. From bnelson at asu.edu Thu Jan 27 16:34:36 2000 From: bnelson at asu.edu (Ben Nelson) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:34:36 -0700 Subject: Luminous brujas Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF68E4.1C04B62A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Maybe it takes us too far afield, but these accounts are strikingly similar in some ways to ones that I got in the Maya Highlands (Chuj region). Beings called "Chiapas" live in the cerros, where they keep great stores of tequila and food, which they can hurl from one mountaintop to another. These beings are spirit-extensions of individual humans and can mediate for them in the living world. They can be seen on clear nights as luminous dwarfs who slide smoothly through the air just above the ground. Under such circumstances, it can be dangerous to encounter one, but they can also do good. Not everyone can see them, and they are almost never seen in the rainy season. Ben Nelson -----Original Message----- From: David L. Frye [mailto:dfrye at umich.edu] Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 8:57 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Firefly Lore Likewise in Mexquitic, SLP (one of the former Tlaxcalan settlements in the north, where Nahuatl was spoken until 1850 or so). "Brujas" (there is no nahuatl word used) are seen as lights dancing along the hills at night, and are said to come into houses to suck people dry -- why else do old people look so wrinkled, after all? But in the three years I lived in Mexquitic I don't recall ever seeing a firefly -- too high & dry, I suppose. The "naturalistic" explanation of the lights would probably be lightning flashes. > This meshes neatly with what J.L. McKeever Furst writes about of people in > the same region, whose "major worry is the witch, or nahualli, a terrifying > and malevolent being whose activities are known in catastrophies, misfortune > and illnesses, whose lanterns dance along trails at night." > Lights are also associated with "the tlahuepoches, or dangerous nocturnal > birds that suck blood from adults (but prefer the blood of infants) through lo > ng beaks they use as suction tubes." .... "In Alta, these fearsome > tlahuepoches either carry lights or emit a glow themselves." ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF68E4.1C04B62A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Luminous brujas

Maybe it takes us too far afield, but these accounts = are strikingly similar in some ways to ones that I got in the Maya = Highlands (Chuj region).  Beings called "Chiapas" live = in the cerros, where they keep great stores of tequila and food, which = they can hurl from one mountaintop to another.  These beings are = spirit-extensions of individual humans and can mediate for them in the = living world.  They can be seen on clear nights as luminous dwarfs = who slide smoothly through the air just above the ground.  Under = such circumstances, it can be dangerous to encounter one, but they can = also do good.  Not everyone can see them, and they are almost = never seen in the rainy season.

Ben Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: David L. Frye [mailto:dfrye at umich.edu]
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 8:57 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: Firefly Lore


Likewise in Mexquitic, SLP (one of the former = Tlaxcalan settlements in the
north, where Nahuatl was spoken until 1850 or so). = "Brujas" (there is no
nahuatl word used) are seen as lights dancing along = the hills at night,
and are said to come into houses to suck people dry = -- why else do old
people look so wrinkled, after all? But in the three = years I lived in
Mexquitic I don't recall ever seeing a firefly -- = too high & dry, I
suppose. The "naturalistic" explanation of = the lights would probably be
lightning flashes.

> This meshes neatly with what J.L. McKeever Furst = writes about of people in
> the same region, whose "major worry is the = witch, or nahualli, a terrifying
> and malevolent being whose activities are known = in catastrophies, misfortune
> and illnesses, whose lanterns dance along = trails at night."
> Lights are also associated with "the = tlahuepoches, or dangerous nocturnal
> birds that suck blood from adults (but prefer = the blood of infants) through lo
> ng beaks they use as suction tubes." .... = "In Alta, these fearsome
> tlahuepoches either carry lights or emit a glow = themselves."

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF68E4.1C04B62A-- From AscheAsh2 at aol.com Thu Jan 27 17:12:26 2000 From: AscheAsh2 at aol.com (AscheAsh2 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:12:26 -0700 Subject: Terrence's list Message-ID: Hello you all. I'd like to get a liitle help in bibliography. Working on a vocabulary with an incorporated concordance, it occured to me to check on Kaufman's linguistic list. of about 1500 words, but could not find it. Can anybody tell me where to look for sure? Many Thanks. Werner Asche AscheAsh2 at aol.com From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Jan 28 02:54:23 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:54:23 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: > Most people refer to the idea that Cortes was mistaken for > Quetzalcoatl as a real life example of Native Americans > deifying white men. However, I challenge anybody to find a > reference to Cortes as Quetzalcoatl that predates the 18th > century. Try the end of Chapter 3 of Book 12 of the Florentine Codex. But also bear in mind that that account of the conquest was composed as much as a half-century after the events by Bernardino de Sahagun's Nahua assistants, people who certainly needed an explanation of why things happened as they did. Fran Karttunen From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Jan 28 03:43:36 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:43:36 -0700 Subject: Campbell & Karttunen text Message-ID: > The cost including shipment to Europe is $71.00. There is another route for European shipment of the Foundation Course. The University of Helsinki made copies for an intensive Nahuatl course for Europeans I taught in the spring of 1998. There are some surplus copies available. If you are in Europe and want a copy, you can contact Jan-Ola Oestman at the following address: joostman at tuuri.ling.helsinki.fi Fran Karttunen From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Jan 28 03:46:30 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:46:30 -0700 Subject: Not really about Spanish "Gods" Message-ID: > "Tlasohkamahtli", Thanks means literately ?love to you through my mouth= > ?. Well, not quite. The form is tlazohca:mati, and it does not contain cama-tl 'mouth' or, by extension, 'utterance.' The -ca:- element is known as a "ligature" and is here used to connect tlaxoh- (an element that has to do with value, love, and affection) to the verb mati 'to know something.' Fran From Teuhtlili at aol.com Fri Jan 28 05:14:10 2000 From: Teuhtlili at aol.com (Teuhtlili at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 22:14:10 -0700 Subject: Fwd: FW: This is real! Just send it on please Message-ID: --part1_84.b67daf.25c27b8e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_84.b67daf.25c27b8e_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: SKITTRO at aol.com From: SKITTRO at aol.com Full-name: SKITTRO Message-ID: <74.10f3154.25bfa046 at aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:56:38 EST Subject: Fwd: FW: This is real! 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Just send it on please To: Chellemy at aol.com, SKITTRO at aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part4_84.b67daf.25bb9888_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 --part4_84.b67daf.25bb9888_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part4_84.b67daf.25bb9888_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: MILLYNCA24 at aol.com From: MILLYNCA24 at aol.com Full-name: MILLYNCA24 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:42:06 EST Subject: Fwd: FW: This is real! 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Just send it on please Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:06:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Rosenthal, Lee Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 8:33 AM To: Asher, Mark; Dempsey, Ellen; Gomez, Monica; Griffin, Dave; Hanes, Shelby; Henry, Linda; Hersh, Dale; KGME Sales; Liotta, Tim; Marotta, Vince Subject: FW: This is real! Just send it on please -----Original Message----- From: Rice, Steve Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 8:26 AM To: 'cwilliams at knbr.com' Cc: DeMedicis, Linda; Dillon, Tom; KFYI Sales; KGME Sales; KKFR Sales; KMLE Sales; KOOL Sales; KOY Sales; KYOT Sales; KZON Sales; Zucchini, Julie; Woods, Grant; Wallace, Todd; Sutherland, Scott; Rosson, Nikki; Phoenix Marketing/Promotions; Phoenix IT People; Phoenix Engineering; 'melanierice at att.com'; 'sholt at knbr.com'; 'jratto at susqsf.com' Subject: FW: This is real! Just send it on please -----Original Message----- From: Krelle, Shari [mailto:KrelleS at CTT.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 5:50 PM To: 'gault1 at home.com'; 'laccarino at att.com'; 'RRodriguez at pacunion.com'; 'metromacs at aol.com'; 'publicnut at aol.com'; Perry, Pamela Subject: FW: This is real! Just send it on please -----Original Message----- From: Perry, Pamela Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 4:45 PM To: Krelle, Shari; Linder, Jennifer; Emmett, Anna; Despotakis, Shelley; Johnson, Venetia; Aura, Erin Subject: FW: This is real! Just send it on please -----Original Message----- From: MASONINC at concentric.net [mailto:MASONINC at concentric.net] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 9:20 AM To: Uncle Bobby; Tonja Caponigro; Tim Johnson; Sharon Marshall; Pam Perry; Melanie Meinert; Maria LaSalle; Joey LaSalle; Jeff Runyan; Heather; Donna Mattie; Delores DeMartini; Carrie LaSalle; Brian & Jen; Beth & Steve Subject: Fw: This is real! Just send it on please ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 8:46 AM Subject: This is real! Just send it on please > Do you really think this is real? When I get my check, I'll believe it. > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > ___ > > >> >>>> > >>> Subject: This is real! > > >> >>>> > >>> > > >> >>>> > >>> > > >> >>>> > >>> I'm an attorney, and I know the law. This thing is for > > >> >>>> > >>> real. Rest assured AOL and Intel will follow through > > >> >>>> > >>> with their promises for fear of facing an multimillion > > >> >>>> > >>> dollar class action suit similar to the one filed by > Pepsico > > >> >>>> > >>> against General Electric not too long ago. I'll be damned > > >> >>>> > >>> if we're all going to help them out with their e-mail beta > > >> >>>> > >>> test without getting a little something for our time. My > > >> >>>> > >>> brother's girlfriend got in on this a few months ago. > > >> >>>> > >>> When I went to visit him for the Baylor/UT game she > > >> >>>> > >>> showed me her check. It was for the sum of $4,324.44 > > >> >>>> > >>> and was stamped "Paid In Full". Like I said before, > > >> >>>> > >>> I know the law, and this is for real. If you don't > believe > > >> >>>> > >>> me you can email her at jpiltman at baylor.edu. She's > > >> >>>> > >>> eager to answer any questions you guys might have. > > >> >>>> > >>> Thanks, Dirk. I know I'm already in. Moore, Dirk" > > >> >>>> > >>> wrote: If you don't do this, you must be really, really > > >> >>>> > >>> dumb. From: James M. Schwarnica This is not a joke. > > >> >>>> > >>> I am forwarding this because the person who sent it to > > >> >>>> > >>> me is a good friend and does not send me junk. Intel > > >> >>>> > >>> and AOL are now discussing a merger which would > > >> >>>> > >>> make them the largest Internet company and in an > > >> >>>> > >>> effort make sure that AOL remains the most widely > > >> >>>> > >>> used program, Intel and AOL are running an e-mail > > >> >>>> > >>> beta test. When you forward this e-mail to friends, > > >> >>>> > >>> Intel can and will track it (if you are a Microsoft > > >> >>>> > >>> Windows user) for a two week time period. For > > >> >>>> > >>> every person that you forward this e-mail to, Microsoft > > >> >>>> > >>> will pay you $203.15, for every person that you sent it > > >> >>>> > >>> to that forwards it on, Microsoft will pay you $156.29 > > >> >>>> > >>> and for every third person that receives it, you will be > > >> >>>> > >>> paid $17.65 Within two weeks, Intel will contact you for > > >> >>>> > >>> your address and then send you a check. I thought this > > >> >>>> > >>> was a scam myself, but a friend of my good friend's > > >> >>>> > >>> Aunt Patricia, who works at Intel actually got a check for > > >> >>>> > >>> $4,543.23 by forwarding this e-mail. > > >> >>>> > >>> > > >> >>>> > >>> Try it, what have you got to lose???? > > > --part5_84.b67daf.25b8cd1e_boundary-- --part4_84.b67daf.25bb9888_boundary-- --part3_84.b67daf.25bbf22a_boundary-- --part2_84.b67daf.25bfa046_boundary-- --part1_84.b67daf.25c27b8e_boundary-- From marisol at tiscalinet.it Fri Jan 28 09:54:46 2000 From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:54:46 -0700 Subject: Tloque Nahuaque Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BF697B.51E32DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am doing a research on Tloque-Nahuaque / Ipalnemohuani. Would someone know in which codex or codices this is more frequently found, and/or what is its glyph like? Thank you Susana Moraleda ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BF697B.51E32DC0 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Susana Moraleda.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Moraleda;Susana FN:Susana Moraleda EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it REV:20000128T092306Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BF697B.51E32DC0-- From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Fri Jan 28 15:33:17 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:33:17 -0700 Subject: Fwd: FW: This is real! Just send it on please Message-ID: Please do NOT send this sort of thing on or I will notify the Postal Service and the US Treasury Office. They are still in charge of enforcing laws against chain letters and Interstate Fraud. J. F. Schwaller List Owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Jan 28 21:12:23 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:12:23 -0700 Subject: Tloque Nahuaque Message-ID: Dear Susana, It's wonderful to hear from you. Both these terms are ubiquitous in Nahuatl writings. In particular ipalnemoani 's/he by whose grace living goes on' is to be found in the Bancroft huehuetlahtolli that Jim Lockhart and I published as The Art of Nahuatl Speech: the Bancroft Dialogues. Fran Karttunen ---------- >From: "marisol" >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Tloque Nahuaque >Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000, 4:56 AM > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BF697B.51E32DC0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I am doing a research on Tloque-Nahuaque / Ipalnemohuani. > > Would someone know in which codex or codices this is more frequently found, > and/or what is its glyph like? > > Thank you > Susana Moraleda > > > > ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BF697B.51E32DC0 > Content-Type: text/x-vcard; > name="Susana Moraleda.vcf" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Disposition: attachment; > filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf" > > BEGIN:VCARD > VERSION:2.1 > N:Moraleda;Susana > FN:Susana Moraleda > EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it > REV:20000128T092306Z > END:VCARD > > ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BF697B.51E32DC0-- > From malinal at evhr.net Sat Jan 29 18:49:32 2000 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:49:32 -0700 Subject: Tloque Nahuaque Message-ID: Susana Moraleda wrote > >I am doing a research on Tloque-Nahuaque / Ipalnemohuani. > >Would someone know in which codex or codices this is more frequently found, >and/or what is its glyph like? > >Thank you >Susana Moraleda > In the Florentine Codex ipalnemohuani seems to be a very abstract attribut of divinities (or of the divinity). It was so much abstract that it could be apply to the christian God: "in zan iceltzin nelli teotl ilhuicahuah in tlalticpaqueh in ipalnemohuani", the only true God, the master of the sky, the master of the earth, he by whose grace all lives. Sahagun. Colloquios. Quellenwerke zur Alten Geschichte Americas III 77 - Stuttgard 1949. I belive therefore that if the corresponding glyph existed it cannot appear in the codices of calendrical or historical content. Does it any where else? Alexis Wimmer. From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Jan 29 23:52:23 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:52:23 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl puppet play Message-ID: Jean Charlot had a career in painting that began in his native France, move= d on to Mexico in the 1920s, and concluded in Hawai'i (and points beyond in the Pacific). His interest, from the moment he arrived in Mexico, was in indigenous people, and he enjoyed deeply sympathetic friendships with Nahuas, Maya, and Native Hawaiians. During the "Mexican mural renaissance" of the 1920s he was a colleague of Rivera, Siqueiros, Orozco, Weston, Modotti, Brenner, and others. Do=F1a Luz Jim=E9nez, the greatest Nahua writer of the 20th century, was his preferred model and his cherished friend. In the 1940s Charlot returned to Mexico as a Guggenheim fellow. During the course of two years he studied Nahuatl with Roberto Barlow and wrote a puppet play in the language. The text of Charlot's puppet play, Mowentike Chalman/Los Peregrinos de Chalma and a critical appendix by me (in Spanish) now appear at the following sites: The text of the play: www2.hawaii.edu/speccoll/charlotescritos36.html My critical notes: same except for charlotescritosapp instead of charlotescritos36 The Charlot website at the University of Hawaii is beautiful and has many excellent essays as well as reproductions of his art. I recommend it. Fran Karttunen From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Jan 31 03:46:28 2000 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:46:28 -0700 Subject: Jean Charlot Web Site Message-ID: I had promised a friend to send a note to y'all about the Jean Charlot Web Site and I just (hurriedly) saw that Fran's note on a puppet play refers to the same site. Just let me add my enthusiastic reaction to exploration of the site. I plan to spend some very fruitful hours there -- and those hours will make my next trip to Mexico more enjoyable, both from re-seeing paintings by Jean Charlot (and other painters) [this time with more perspective] and from locating ones that my ignorance has led me away from in the past. Please forgive if this is 100% redundant: http://www.hawaii.edu/speccoll/charlot.html I will be away from e-mail for the next several days, but I'll be back to Nahuat-l within a week. Best regards, Joe From kaa99 at dial.pipex.com Mon Jan 31 13:42:03 2000 From: kaa99 at dial.pipex.com (Nancy Boulicault) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:42:03 -0700 Subject: Diafrasismos Message-ID: Three Wishes 1) Could the learned listeros share their favourite diafrasismos in English and Nahuat? Riddles would be welcome as well. 2) Did the Mexica have a name for the coastal storms which I believe are now called Northers? Is there a description of these storms? I've read one in Life in Mexico by Calderon de la Barca but was looking for something more detailed in either English or French. 3) Does an English or French translation of Acosta Saignes, Miguel, Los Pochteca, 1945 from Acta Anthropologica 1:9-54, exist? Thank you Nancy (a long time lurker and admirer) From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Jan 31 15:45:59 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:45:59 -0700 Subject: Diafrasismos Message-ID: > Three Wishes > > 1) Could the learned listeros share their favourite diafrasismos in > English and Nahuat? Riddles would be welcome as well. Adages, difrasismos, and riddles in Nahuatl, Spanish, and English are to be found at the end of the Anderson and Dibble translation of Book 6 of the Florentine Codex. It's better to go to the source than to get these second-hand. It's surprising how many libraries have the Anderson and Dibble FC. Even i= n Honolulu, to my astonishment. For modern riddles, Jose Antonio Flores Farf=E1n and Cleofas Ramirez Celestin= o (a Nahuatl speaker from Xalitla, Guerrero, and a superb artist) have a whol= e series of publications for children based on modern riddles. Some of their publications are trilingual in Nahuatl, Spanish, and English. They are ver= y generous with distribution of their publications, which are visually gorgeous as well as excellent examples of modern Nahuatl. For more information write to Jose Antonio at: University of Arizona College of Education Language, Reading, and Culture Tucson, AZ 85721 You can also find Cleofas's art and some riddles and stories at the following children's website (also highly recommended!): kokone.com.mx The English version of the website used to work, but lately I can only get it in Spanish/Nahuatl. Fran From elazteca at collegeclub.com Mon Jan 31 18:07:50 2000 From: elazteca at collegeclub.com (yo' daddy) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:07:50 -0700 Subject: mixiotes Message-ID: Hello all @ nahuat-l: I was woundering if anyone can fill me in on a pre-hispanic food called "Mixiotes" (Ibelieve). To the best of my understanding it is a Tamal like eatable wrapped in Maguey leaves with Chicken (or other meat) and spices. If anyone out there knows more, please share the knowledge. Thank you so much... Ivan Ochoa -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why is College Club the largest and fastest growing college student site? Find out for yourself at http://www.collegeclub.com From heatherhess at hotmail.com Mon Jan 31 21:26:38 2000 From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:26:38 -0700 Subject: mixiotes Message-ID: This doesn�t exactly answer your question but yesterday at the market i discovered miel of maguey ' honey of the maguey plant� wow!!!! I will question my friends about mixiotes! i would love to learn more info about pre'hispanic comida! anyone please send recipes! Yolohtzin >From: "yo' daddy" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: mixiotes >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:08:23 -0700 > >Hello all @ nahuat-l: >I was woundering if anyone can fill me in on a pre-hispanic food called >"Mixiotes" (Ibelieve). To the best of my understanding it is a Tamal like >eatable wrapped in Maguey leaves with Chicken (or other meat) and spices. >If anyone out there knows more, please share the knowledge. Thank you so >much... >Ivan Ochoa > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Why is College Club the largest and fastest growing college student site? >Find out for yourself at http://www.collegeclub.com > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Jan 31 22:40:54 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:40:54 -0700 Subject: mixiotes Message-ID: >anyone please send recipes! > > Yolohtzin There are some excellent recipes to be found on the kokone.com.mx site. My Swedish students and I got amaranth seeds from the health food store last spring and made allegria following kokone instructions. It was a great success. Mixiotes are food steamed in the leaves of the maguey plant (metl in Nahuatl). Fran From marisol at tiscalinet.it Mon Jan 31 23:21:06 2000 From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:21:06 -0700 Subject: mixiotes Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BF6C49.515B17C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hola Ivan, Los mixiotes que yo conozco son la tela que cubre la penca del maguey. Esta se pone a remojar para que ablande y sea flexible (alrededor de dos horas). Se corta en cuadros de 25 cms. aproximadamente. Me parece que esta receta es de Tlaxcala (yo no sabia que era de origen prehispanico!!) Bueno, pues se tuestan los chiles anchos, se desvenan y se ponen a remojar en caldo de carne. Usando el mismo caldo se muelen junto con ajo, cebolla y almendra pelada. Se sazona con sal y oregano. Se corta la carne de carnero en pedazos pequenos y se pone a macerar en la salsa durante media hora. Se extienden las hojas de mixiote y a cada una se le pone una hoja de aguacate y la carne bien banada en salsa. Se toman las puntas del mixiote jalandolas hacia arriba y se amarran formando bolsitas. Se ponen a cocer al vapor. Perdon, pero no se darte cantidades. Espero que te sirva y te guste. Cordialmente, Susana Moraleda (una mexicana en Italia) -----Original Message----- From: yo' daddy To: Multiple recipients of list Date: luned� 31 gennaio 2000 19.12 Subject: mixiotes >Hello all @ nahuat-l: >I was woundering if anyone can fill me in on a pre-hispanic food called >"Mixiotes" (Ibelieve). To the best of my understanding it is a Tamal like >eatable wrapped in Maguey leaves with Chicken (or other meat) and spices. >If anyone out there knows more, please share the knowledge. Thank you so >much... >Ivan Ochoa > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Why is College Club the largest and fastest growing college student site? >Find out for yourself at http://www.collegeclub.com > > ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BF6C49.515B17C0 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Susana Moraleda.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Moraleda;Susana FN:Susana Moraleda EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it REV:20000131T231311Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BF6C49.515B17C0-- From jmsugars at pacbell.net Tue Jan 4 08:08:44 2000 From: jmsugars at pacbell.net (J. Mark Sugars) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:08:44 -0800 Subject: speaking of -tl Message-ID: Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Does anyone know how the Kwakiutl pronounce their -tl? Boas in the *Handbook of American Indian Languages* lists a lateral surd among the sounds of Kwakiutl {but he uses a capital "L" for this sound}; that sounds to me like it would be the same as the classical Nahuatl -tl. Mark Sugars Irvine, California From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Sun Jan 2 01:22:37 2000 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:22:37 -0700 Subject: mokwiltonowani (mocuiltonohuani) Message-ID: What is the grammatical or semantic makeup underlying the word 'mokwiltonowani' (a rich person, 'mogul?')? Also, can somebody send me an up-to-date list of all current publishers (and self-publishers) of Nahuatl materials? From campbel at indiana.edu Sun Jan 2 03:32:10 2000 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:32:10 -0700 Subject: mokwiltonowani (mocuiltonohuani) Message-ID: The verb stem is -cuiltonoa (without the /w/), but it is undoubtedly inserted in some dialects by *general* rule (i.e., in /oa/ ---> [owa] dialects). Also, it may occur sporadically in any dialect, but I wouldn't call this "hypercorrection" because the conditions are right for it. Molina lists the following forms: (prefixes are shown in parentheses; the main entry is given in=20 conventionalized spelling; forms in {{ ... }} are Molina's original forms) =20 cen cuiltonoliztli (ne-invert.2). {{necen cuiltonoliztli}} copiosa y entera riqueza. 71m2-64-3-12-11 =20 cencuiltonoliz tlacnopilhuiliztli (ne-invert.2). {{necencuiltonoliz tlacnopilhuiliztli}} dones o mercedes copiosas y enteras de la bienauenturanza. 71m2-64-3-11-11 =20 cencuiltonoliztlacnopilhuiliztli (ne-invert.2). {{necencuiltonoliztlacnopilhuiliztli}} perpetua bienauenturan=87a de riquezas y gloria. 71m1-95-17 =20 cuiltono (te-invert.2). {{tecuiltono}} el que enriquece a otro, o cosa que enriquece a otro. 71m2-093-3-41-16 =20 cuiltonoa (mo). {{mocuiltonoa}} rico. 55m-197v-17 cuiltonoa (mo). {{mocuiltonoa}} rico. 71m1-105-18 =20 cuiltonoa (nicno). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnicno}} gozerse de algo como de fin. 55m-131v-10 cuiltonoa (nicno). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnicno}} gozarse de algo como de fin. 71m1-66-12 cuiltonoa (nicno). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnicno=3Donicnocuiltono}} fruir y gozar d= e algo. 71m2-26-4-34-5 =20 cuiltonoa (nino). {{ninocuitonoa}} abundadar en riquezas. 55m-003v-00 cuiltonoa (nino). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnino}} enrriquecerse. 55m-105r-8 cuiltonoa (nino). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnino}} gozerse como quiera. 55m-132r-10 cuiltonoa (nino). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnino}} abundar en riquezas. 71m1-2-2-1 cuiltonoa (nino). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnino}} gozarse como quiera. 71m1-66-12 cuiltonoa (nino). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnino=3Doninocuiltono}} abundar en haziend= a, o gozarse mucho. 71m2-26-4-35-5 =20 cuiltonoa (nite). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnite}} enrriquecer a otro. 55m-105r-8 cuiltonoa (nite). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnite}} enriquecer a otro. 71m1-55-10 cuiltonoa (nite). {{nitecuiltonoa}} enriquecer a otro. 71m1-55-10 cuiltonoa (nite). {{cuiltonoa =3Dnite=3Donitecuiltono}} enriquecer aotro. 71m2-26-4-36-5 =20 cuiltonoani (mo). {{mocuiltonoani}} abundoso assi. 55m-003v-00 cuiltonoani (mo). {{mocuiltonoani}} gozoso en esta manera. 55m-132r-10 cuiltonoani (mo). {{mocuiltonoani}} abundoso. 71m1-2-2-1 cuiltonoani (mo). {{mocuilto}} gozoso assi. 71m1-66-12 cuiltonoani (mo). {{mocuiltonoani}} rico. per metaphora. el que se goza mucho. 71m2-58-1-28-10 =20 cuiltonoani (te-invert.2). {{tecuiltonoani}} dador delos bienes o dela gracia. 55m-066r-4 cuiltonoani (te-invert.2). {{tecuiltonoani}} enrriquecedor. 55m-105r-8 cuiltonoani (te-invert.2). {{tecuiltonoani}} enriquecedor. 71m1-55-10 cuiltonoani (te-invert.2). {{tecuiltonoani}} enriquecedor. 71m2-093-4-01-16 =20 cuiltonoca (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonoca}} ricamente. 55m-197v-17 cuiltonoca (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonoca}} ricamente. 71m1-105-18 cuiltonoca (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonoca}} ricamente. 71m2-65-3-05-11 =20 cuiltonohua (nino). {{cuiltonoua =3Dnino}} enriquecerse. 71m1-55-10 =20 cuiltonolhuia (ninote [y el elegante es]). {{cuiltonolhuia =3Dninote}}=20 enriquecer a otro. 71m1-55-10 =20 cuiltonoliztica (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonoliztica}} abundosamente assi. 55m-003v-00 cuiltonoliztica (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonoliztica}} abundosamente. 71m1-2-2-1 cuiltonoliztica (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonoliztica}} ricamente. 71m2-65-3-06-11 =20 cuiltonoliztica (te-invert.2). {{tecuiltonoliztica}} enriquecidamente. 71m2-093-4-02-16 =20 cuiltonoliztli [perpetua riqueza] (cemmanca ne-invert.2). {{cemmanca necuiltonoliztli}} perpetua o continua cosa. 71m1-95-17 =20 cuiltonoliztli (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonoliztli}} gozo assi. 55m-132r-10 cuiltonoliztli (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonoliztli}} gozo desta manera. 71m1-66-12 cuiltonoliztli (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonoliztli}} riqueza. 71m2-65-3-07-11 =20 cuiltonoliztli (te-invert.2). {{tecuiltonoliztli}} enrriquecimiento. 55m-105r-8 cuiltonoliztli (te-invert.2). {{tecuiltonoliztli}} enriquecimiento. 71m1-55-10 cuiltonoliztli (te-invert.2). {{tecuiltonoliztli}} enriquecimiento delque enriquece a otro. 71m2-093-4-03-16 =20 cuiltonoliztli (tene-invert.2). {{tenecuiltonoliztli}} enrriquecimiento. 55m-105r-8 cuiltonoliztli (tene-invert.2). {{tenecuiltonoliztli}} enriquecimiento. 71m1-55-10 cuiltonoliztli (tene-invert.2). {{tenecuiltonoliztli}} enriquecimiento. 71m2-98-4-14-17 =20 cuiltonollani (nino-invert.1). {{ninocuiltonollani =3D=3Doninocuiltonollan}= }=20 desear ser rico yprospero. 71m2-72-1-37-12 =20 cuiltonolli (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonolli}} hazienda o riqueza. 55m-137v-11 cuiltonolli (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonolli}} riqueza. 55m-197v-17 cuiltonolli (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonolli}} riqueza. 71m1-105-19 cuiltonolli (ne-invert.2). {{necuiltonolli}} riqueza. 71m2-65-3-08-11 =20 cuiltonolli (tla-invert.2). {{tlacuiltonolli}} enrriquecido. 55m-105r-8 cuiltonolli (tla-invert.2). {{tlacuiltonolli}} enrequecido. 71m1-55-10 cuiltonolli (tla-invert.2). {{tlacuiltonolli}} enriquecido. 71m2-120-1-21-20 =20 cuiltonolti (tene-invert.2). {{tenecuiltonolti}} enrriquecedor. 55m-105r-8 cuiltonolti (tene-invert.2). {{tenecuiltonolti}} enriquecedor. 71m1-55-10 cuiltonolti (tene-invert.2). {{tenecuiltonolti}} cosa que enriquece. 71m2-98-4-15-17 =20 cuiltonoltia (nitene). {{necuiltonoltia =3Dnite}} enrriquecer a otro. 55m-105r-8 cuiltonoltia (nitene). {{necuiltonoltia =3Dnite}} enriquecer a otro. 71m1-55-10 cuiltonoltia (nitene-invert.1). {{necuiltonoltia =3Dnite=3Donitecuiltonolti= }}=20 enriquecer a otro. 71m2-65-3-10-11 =20 hueya nonecuiltonol (occenca-invert.1). {{occenca ueya nonecuiltonol =3D=3Doccenca oueix nonecuiltonol}} acrecentarse mis riquezas. 71m2-74-4-32-13 =20 hueya nonecuiltonoliz (occenca-invert.2). {{occenca ueya nonecuiltonoliz}}= =20 mas valer. 55m-165v-13 hueya nonecuiltonoliz (occenca-invert.2). {{occenca veya no necuiltonoliz}} mas valer. 71m1-83-15 =20 itecencuiltonoaya in dios. {{itecencuiltonoaya in dios}} la bienauenturanza y gloria sempiterna que da nuestro se=A4or dios. 71m2-42-2-25-7 =20 necuiltonolmati (nic). {{necuiltonolmati =3Dnic}} tener o estimar algo por grandes riquezas y deleytes. 55m-197v-19 necuiltonolmati (nic). {{necuiltonolmati =3Dnic}} tener o estimar algo por grandes riquezas y deleytes. 71m1-113-20 necuiltonolmati (nic). {{necuiltonolmati =3Dnic=3Donicnecuiltonolma}} esti= mar y tener por cosa rica alguna cosa. 71m2-65-3-09-11 =20 tetecuiltonoani. {{tetecuiltonoani}} dador delos bienes espirituales y temporales. 71m1-36-6 =20 titocuiltonollani. {{titocuiltonollani =3D=3Dotitocuiltonollanque}} dessea= r ser enriquecidos y prosperados. 71m2-113-4-01-19 ************************* Some of the forms that occur in the Florentine Codex: (some forms are shown with the prefix stripped off and following a comma; others have the prefix intact because time is short and the flesh is weak.) cuiltono, mo-. rich man; he became rich. cuiltono, omo-. he enjoyed himself. cuiltonoa, mo-. he becomes rich; he enjoys; he is rich; he is wealthy; he is prosperous; she is rich; she is wealthy; they are rich; they live in abundance; they rejoice. cuiltonoa, quimo-. they enjoy it. cuiltonoa, te-. he enriches people; he gives riches to people. cuiltonoani, mo-. one who is rich; prosperous person; rich person. cuiltonoanime, mo-. those who are rich. cuiltonoaya, mo-. she prospered; they became rich; they prospered; they were wealthy. cuiltonocanectica, mo-. he pretends to be rich. cuiltonohuaya, mo-. they were rich. cuiltonoliztli, ne-. riches; richness. cuiltonolli, ne-. wealth, riches; richness. cuiltonoloya, ne-. place of wealth; there were riches. cuiltonoque, mo-. rich people. cuiltonoque, tito-. we acquired wealth. cuiltonoz, mo-. he will be rich; he will be wealthy; rich; he will become rich; he will have wealth; he will prosper; she will be rich; she will become rich; she will prosper. cuiltonozque, mo-. they will be rich; they will become rich; they will rejoice. innecuiltonol. their wealth; their riches. mocuiltonoa. he acquires abundance, he becomes prosperous; they are rich; they prosper. mocuiltonoani. rich person. necuiltonol, i-. his fortune; his wealth. necuiltonol, in-. his wealth; their wealth; their riches. necuiltonoliztzin, i-. his riches. necuiltonolli. wealth; contentment; prosperity; riches. necuiltonolo. there is wealth. necuiltonoloya. land of wealth; rich place. necuiltonoloyan. land of wealth. onmocuiltono. he rejoiced. otonmocuiltono. you became wealthy, you became prosperous. timocuiltonoa. you acquire abundance, you become prosperous. xonmocuiltono. be prosperous!. On Sat, 1 Jan 2000, Matthew Montchalin wrote: >=20 > What is the grammatical or semantic makeup underlying the word > 'mokwiltonowani' (a rich person, 'mogul?')? >=20 > Also, can somebody send me an up-to-date list of all current publishers > (and self-publishers) of Nahuatl materials? >=20 From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com Wed Jan 5 06:00:10 2000 From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 23:00:10 -0700 Subject: Day of the Dead -Question Message-ID: Dear Members, I include an article that a friend sent me from the Diario de Yucatan=20 concerning "el dia de los muertos". The thing that is puzzling, is the idea=20 that the Mayans regarded death with such fear and terror. Later in the=20 article it talks about hell. From what I've understood in my previous studie= s=20 is that the concept of "hell" was imported into indigenous thought. Can=20 anyone indicate how accurate the article is, and explain in brief if the=20 Aztec view of after life was that different from other Mesoamerican peoples.= ?=20 Thanks. Henry Vasquez Cr=F3nicas de Isla Mujeres (y II) La visi=F3n de los antiguos mayas sobre el "m=E1s all= =E1", origen de la actual tradici=F3n del D=EDa de Muertos El origen del festejo del D=EDa de Muertos viene de la =E9poca prehisp=E1nica y para conocerlo acotamos aqu=ED algunos conceptos del cronista franciscano fray Diego de Landa, quien escribi=F3: "Cre=EDan (los mayas) que despu=E9s de la muerte hab=EDa otra vida, y que =E9sta era buena o mala... Esta gente ten=EDa mucho, excesivo temor a la muerte... Era cosa de ver las l=E1stimas y llantos que por sus difuntos hac=EDan y la tristeza grande que les causaban. Llor=E1banlos de d=EDa en silencio y de noche en altos y muy dolorosos gritos... Andaban tristes muchos d=EDas y hac=EDan abstinencia y ayuno por el difunto". Contin=FAa el fraile: "Muertos, los amortajaban llen=E1ndoles la boca de ma=EDz molido y de una bebida... y con ellos algunas piedras (como jade) de las que tienen por moneda para que en la otra vida no les faltase de comer. Enterr=E1banlos dentro de sus casas o a las espaldas de ellas, ech=E1ndoles en la sepultura algunos de sus =EDdolos, y si era sacerdote algunos de sus libros". En algunas regiones mayas, si el muerto era un alto dignatario tanto su mujer como sus sirvientes eran sacrificados y enterrados con el fallecido, incluyendo sus pertenencias, como artes de labranza o cacer=EDa. Se=F1ala tambi=E9n el Padre Landa que los mayas constru=EDan =EDdolos a semejanza del difunto. A la estatuilla le hac=EDan un orificio en la parte superior de la cabeza y ah=ED depositaban las cenizas de alguna parte del cuerpo del muerto, al cual, adem=E1s, le desollaban previamente parte del cuero cabelludo y con eso cubr=EDan el orificio del =EDdolo. "Guardaban estas estatuas con mucha reverencia", agrega el religioso. Como informaci=F3n m=E1s contempor=E1nea (1935-1937), incluyamos un texto del etn=F3grafo Alfonso Villa Rojas, quien en su obra "Los elegidos de Dios" expresa: "Las almas de los muertos no se alejan enseguida de la tierra, sino que permanecen entre sus familiares llevando la vida de costumbre y sin darse cuenta de su cambio de estado". "La revelaci=F3n de lo ocurrido tiene lugar hasta el tercer d=EDa en que, estando presentes en el rezo que entonces se habr=E1 de efectuar, oyen mencionar su nombre como el=20= de la persona fallecida. Este descubrimiento les causa profunda amargura y les hace llorar sobre su fosa toda la noche. En ocasiones el llanto es escuchado por los vecinos. Al amanecer del d=EDa siguiente emprenden el viaje hacia el lugar que les corresponda". "En su otra vida, las almas reciben el premio o el castigo que ganaron con su conducta terrenal. Los mayas sustentan que, con excepci=F3n de las almas que van al infierno, todas la dem=E1s retornan anualmente a la tierra para disfrutar de una semana de vacaciones entre sus familiares. Como agasajo, es costumbre dedicarles rezos y comidas durante ese tiempo, de aqu=ED que tal costumbr= e sea conocida con el nombre de Hanal Pix=E1n o Comida de las Almas". De acuerdo con la creencia, "las primeras en hacerse presentes son las almas de los ni=F1os, las cuales llegan a la tierra en la madrugada del 31 de octubre, =E9ste es el d=EDa de los ni=F1os. Para recibirlos debidamente se les dedican a modo de desayuno ofrendas de atole nuevo (sahz=E1) y elotes sancochados (chabil-nal). Este acto tiene lugar en la iglesia y oratorios (altares) familiares... El desempe=F1o de la ceremonia queda a cargo de cualquier var=F3n que sepa el ritual correspondiente. Los familiares y personas concurrentes son obsequiadas luego de las cosas ofrendadas". "Por la tarde se repite el homenaje con ofrendas de platillos especiales, tales como gallina guisada (chacbil-cax), dulce de calabaza (cabil-kun), pedazos de sand=EDa, atole nuevo, chocolate, galletas y otras golosinas. Para compartir del regalo (matam) que se hace de estas cosas al terminarse de rezar, los vecinos se invitan mutuamente y con la abundancia de comidas y golosinas especiales el ambiente se hace festivo". "Por la noche se enciende una vela sobre cada tumba, barda o albarrada para que los =E1ngeles vean su camino. Al d=EDa siguiente, en la madrugada llegan la almas de lo= s adultos, se les reciben de modo igual con los mismos rezos; adem=E1s, sus tumbas son barridas y adornadas con flor= es de Chacsik=EDn". La flor de zempatz=FAchitl o cempas=FAchil a la que se recurre ahora no es originaria de esta regi=F3n. Y contin=FAa Villa Rojas: "Por la tarde, el homenaje s= e efect=FAa en las casas, all=ED, sobre una mesa, se improvisa un altar en el que se pone la cruz fiadora de la familia, una vela encendida y las ofrendas correspondientes para esta ocasi=F3n. La comida principal consiste en chimole de gallina o de puerco, las bebidas y golosinas que se a=F1aden son iguales a las del d=EDa anterior. Como de costumbr= e, los vecinos se obsequiar=E1n de esta ofrendas". "Por la noche no es preciso encender velas sobre sus tumbas, en virtud de que las almas de los grandes pueden ver f=E1cilmente su camino". Tanto en el d=EDa dedicado a los ni=F1os como en el de= los adultos se tiene cuidado de separar una parte de las ofrendas y colocarlas en una j=EDcara que se cuelga de un sost=E9n a la entrada de la casa para las almas que no tiene quienes se acuerden de ellas. Comenta tambi=E9n el investigador que en los siguiente= s d=EDas algunas familias muy religiosas se ocupan de rezar y hacer peque=F1as ofrendas a sus difuntos y al llegar e= l octavo d=EDa, cuando concluye la semana de vacaciones, se despide a las almas con los mismos festejos que a su llegada. Dice Villa Rojas: "El d=EDa siete de noviembre tiene lugar la despedida (ochavario) de los ni=F1os y al d=EDa siguiente, la de los grandes". "Entre las comidas que se ofrecen en ambos d=EDas se debe incluir como platillo especial el llamado chachcuah, especie de pastel relleno de pollo y coloreado de achiote, el cocimiento de este platillo se ha de hacer en el pib u horno subterr=E1neo". A grandes rasgos, =E9sta es la tradici=F3n de nuestro=20= D=EDa de Muertos, tan alterada por la inmigraci=F3n de personas con otras costumbres. Si bien es cierto que ninguna tradici=F3n permanece est=E1tica, bueno ser=EDa tratar de conservar al menos los elementos b=E1sicos del festejo, en especial por el respeto y admiraci=F3n que propios y extra=F1os tienen por la cultura maya, tan denigrada ahora hasta por quienes descendemos de tan ilustre raza. Luchar por conservar nuestras costumbres y tradiciones es tarea de todos. Es com=FAn que en algunas escuelas los alumnos sean motivo de burla por llevar apellidos mayas, porque se ignora que hay demasiadas razones para estar orgullosos del legado de un pueblo que sigue sorprendiendo al mundo por sus magn=EDficas construcciones y que a final de cuentas son s=F3lo una peque=F1a muestr= a de los notables avances de la milenaria cultura.- (Colaboraci=F3n del Sr. Fidel Villanueva Madrid, cronista de la ciudad de Isla Mujeres) From ibarrara at servidor.unam.mx Wed Jan 5 18:33:05 2000 From: ibarrara at servidor.unam.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?H-M=E9xico?= Moderadores (by)) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:33:05 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl Summer Language Institute II: Becas Message-ID: Yale University and the Title VI Consortium of New England has recently accessed funds to provide a full tuition stipend and $2,400 in living expenses to students who wish to attend the Nahuatl Summer Language Institute II at Yale University (21 June to 13 August 1999). We apologize for the lateness of this announcement but would welcome those who wish to take an intensive course in Nahuatl but for financial reasons were unable to apply. Those interested should contact Jonathan D. Amith (coordinator and co-instructor) at Jonathan.amith at yale.edu or at either of the following telephone numbers: 203/432-3197 or 203/624-5209. The application should include a letter of application and, if possible, a recommendation and/or transcript. However, given the lateness of this announcement we will be flexible in this regard. Below is a short description of the course. Further information can be obtained at the website: http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl Nahuatl Summer Language Institute II at the Yale Summer Language Institute June 21-August 13, 1999 *Intensive language training in Classical, colonial, and modern Nahuatl *three-hours per day of language instruction during an eight-week period *weekly translation workshops for direct experience with historical= documents *emphasis on the diversity of Nahuatl in order to prepare students for work in a wide range of textual materials *training in the utilization of the Copenhagen Nahuatl Dictionary Project (CoNDiP), a computerized lexicon for the study of colonial texts * utilization of course materials, lexicons, and texts developed especially for this institute *language tapes and interactive web-based and CD-ROM learning exercises * six hours of course credit from Yale University Summer Programs * Jonathan D. Amith and Una Canger, language instructors * additional seminars and intensive workshops with leading scholars in the field of Nahuatl language and culture One week-long intensive seminar with Michel Launey, a world-renowned scholar in the field of Classical Nahuatl Two two-day intensive workshops led by experts in the field of colonial and classical Nahuatl * Louise Burkhart, SUNY-Albany, on religious texts and the translation of European concepts into the Nahuatl language * Andrea Mart=EDnez, Centro de Investigaciones y Estudios Superiores en Antropolog=EDa Social, Mexico City, on the Actas de Tlaxcala * Susan Schroeder, Loyola University of Chicago, on the genre of Nahuatl-language annals and native-language texts that record an indigenous historical perspective Application procedure * open to undergraduates, graduates, and other scholars * course approved for FLAS summer language grants * limited financial assistance available to Yale students * tuition costs of $2,600 * accommodation and meal plan available * rolling admissions; space limited For application materials and further information, contact Nahuatl Summer Language Institute, Council on Latin American Studies, Yale University, P.O. Box 208206, New Haven, CT 06520-8206; call 203/432-3197; or contact the coordinator at jonathan.amith at yale.edu Co-sponsored by the Yale University Summer Language Programs and Council on Latin American Studies, the Hewlett Foundation, and the Latin American Studies Consortium of New England. Please visit our website at http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl From AscheAsh2 at aol.com Wed Jan 5 21:46:43 2000 From: AscheAsh2 at aol.com (AscheAsh2 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:46:43 -0700 Subject: info nahuat-l Message-ID: informatiom nahuat-l From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Jan 6 04:21:12 2000 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:21:12 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: Nocnihuan, I have my hand out again. A good friend of mine wants to locate the lyrics of the national anthem of Mexico in Nahuatl. I have the possibly faulty recollection of having seen them in print, but I have a verified memory failure as to where! Can someone either supply "la letra" or tell me where to look? I would appreciate it cenca miac. Tlazohcamati huel miac, Joe From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx Thu Jan 6 17:01:30 2000 From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:01:30 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: Hi Joe, There are many versions of the National Anthem in modern nahuatl. Here is a portion of what is used in some of the bilingual schools in San Luis (refrain and the first couple of lines of the first verse). I have the rest in my office, plus a version from a bilingual text from Hidalgo. I'll get them to you this afternoon. John Sullivan Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas mexko euanij ikualanka tsatsilistli xisenkaua kauayo uan tepostli uan mulinis ipan tlajkotlali kalkilistli tepostlatsitsi mitsunilpis mutlali ka xiuitl ka ijuikat musempa nemilis pakilisti tlamaket teoyo..... -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de R. Joe Campbell Enviado el: Mi?rcoles, 05 de Enero de 2000 10:24 p.m. Para: Multiple recipients of list Asunto: Mexico's national anthem Nocnihuan, I have my hand out again. A good friend of mine wants to locate the lyrics of the national anthem of Mexico in Nahuatl. I have the possibly faulty recollection of having seen them in print, but I have a verified memory failure as to where! Can someone either supply "la letra" or tell me where to look? I would appreciate it cenca miac. Tlazohcamati huel miac, Joe From scalderon at spin.com.mx Thu Jan 6 19:04:56 2000 From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:04:56 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: CORO: Mexicanos al grito de guerra el acero arribad y el bridon y retiemble en su centro la Tierra al sonoro rugir del ca?on I Ci?a, Oh Patria! tus sienes de oliva de la paz el arcangel divino que en el cielo tu eterno destino con el dedo de Dios escribio Mas si osare un extra?o enemigo profanar con su planta tu tierra piensa, Oh Patria, que el cielo un soldado en cada hijo te dio un soldado en cada hijo te dio X Patria, Patria, tus hijos te juran exhalar en tus aras su aliento si el clarin con su belico acento nos convoca a luchar con valor. Para ti las guirnaldas de olivo un recuerdo para ellos de gloria un laurel para ti de victoria un recuerdo para ellos de honor un recuerdo para ellos de honor ----- Original Message ----- From: R. Joe Campbell To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 10:23 PM Subject: Mexico's national anthem > Nocnihuan, > I have my hand out again. A good friend of mine wants to locate the > lyrics of the national anthem of Mexico in Nahuatl. I have the possibly > faulty recollection of having seen them in print, but I have a verified > memory failure as to where! Can someone either supply "la letra" or tell > me where to look? I would appreciate it cenca miac. > > > Tlazohcamati huel miac, > > Joe > > From scalderon at spin.com.mx Thu Jan 6 19:19:55 2000 From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:19:55 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: Here is the complete letter, usually only estrofas I and X are sung. Estrofa IV is now officially deleted because "el guerrero inmortal de Zempoala" is Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna also estrofa VII is unofficial because it mentions Iturbide. The music can be heard at: http://mexico.udg.mx/Historia/24-feb/himno.html CORO Mexicanos, al grito de guerra El acero aprestad y el brid?n, Y retiemble en sus centros la tierra Al sonoro rugir del ca??n. ESTROFAS I Ci?a ?Oh Patria! tus sienes de oliva De la paz el arc?ngel divino, Que en el cielo tu eterno destino Por el dedo de Dios se escribi?. Mas si osare un extra?o enemigo profanar con su planta tu suelo, Piensa ?Oh Patria querida! que el cielo Un soldado en cada hijo te di?. II En sangrientos combates los viste Por tu amor palpitando sus senos, Arrostrar la metralla serenos, Y la muerte o la gloria buscar. Si el recuerdo de antiguas haza?as, De tus hijos inflama la mente, Los laureles del triunfo, tu frente, Volver?n inmortales a ornar. III Como al golpe del rayo la encina Se derrumba hasta el hondo torrente La discordia vencida, impotente, A los pies del arc?ngel cay?. Ya no m?s de tus hijos la sangre se derrame en contienda de hermanos; Solo encuentre el acero en tus manos Quien tu nombre sagrado insult?. IV Del guerrero inmortal de Zempoala Te defiende la espada terrible, Y sostiene su brazo invencible Tu sagrado pend?n tricolor. El ser? del feliz mexicano en la paz y en la guerra el caudillo, Porque el supo sus armas de brillo Circundar en los campos de honor. V ?Guerra, guerra sin tregua al que intente De la patria manchar los blasones! ?Guerra, guerra! los patrios pendones en las olas de sangre empapad. ?Guerra, guerra! En el monte, en el valle, Los ca?ones horr?sonos truenen Y los ecos sonoros resuenen Con las voces de ?Uni?n! ?Libertad! VI Antes, Patria, que inermes tus hijos bajo el yugo su cuello dobleguen, Tus campi?as con sangre se rieguen, Sobre sangre se estampe su pie. Y tus templos, palacios y torres se derrumben con h?rrido estruendo, Y sus ruinas existan diciendo: De mil h?roes la patria aqu? fu?. VII Si a la lid contra hueste enemiga Nos convoca la trompa guerrera, De Iturbide la sacra bandera ?Mexicanos! valientes seguid. Y a los fieros bridones les sirvan Las vencidas ense?as de alfombra: Los laureles del triunfo den sombra A la frente del bravo adalid. VIII Vuelva altivo a los patrios hogares El guerrero a contar su victoria, Ostentando las palmas de gloria Que supiera en la lid conquistar. Torn?ranse sus lauros sangrientos En guirnaldas de mirtos y rosas, Que el amor de las hijas y esposas Tambi?n sabe a los bravos premiar. IX Y el que al golpe de ardiente metralla De la Patria en las aras sucumba Obtendr? en recompensa una tumba Donde brille de gloria la luz. Y de Iguala la ense?a querida A su espada sangrienta enlazada, De laurel inmortal coronada, Formar? de su fosa la cruz. X ?Patria! ?Patria! tus hijos te juran exhalar en tus aras su aliento, Si el clar?n con su b?lico acento Los convoca a lidiar con valor. ?Para t? las guirnaldas de oliva; ?Un recuerdo para ellos de gloria! ?Un laurel para ti de victoria; ?Un sepulcro para ellos de honor! ----- Original Message ----- From: R. Joe Campbell To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 10:23 PM Subject: Mexico's national anthem > Nocnihuan, > I have my hand out again. A good friend of mine wants to locate the > lyrics of the national anthem of Mexico in Nahuatl. I have the possibly > faulty recollection of having seen them in print, but I have a verified > memory failure as to where! Can someone either supply "la letra" or tell > me where to look? I would appreciate it cenca miac. > > > Tlazohcamati huel miac, > > Joe > > From micc at home.com Thu Jan 6 21:35:20 2000 From: micc at home.com (micc) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:35:20 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: Salvador: Thanks for the SPANISH version, but what he wanted was the song in NAHUATL It was good to know the reason certain sections are not sung anymore!!! thanks! Salvador Calder?n wrote: > > Here is the complete letter, > usually only estrofas I and X are sung. > > Estrofa IV is now officially deleted because "el guerrero inmortal de > Zempoala" is Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna > > also estrofa VII is unofficial because it mentions Iturbide. > > The music can be heard at: > http://mexico.udg.mx/Historia/24-feb/himno.html > > CORO > > Mexicanos, al grito de guerra > El acero aprestad y el brid?n, > Y retiemble en sus centros la tierra > Al sonoro rugir del ca??n. > > ESTROFAS > > I > > Ci?a ?Oh Patria! tus sienes de oliva > De la paz el arc?ngel divino, > Que en el cielo tu eterno destino > Por el dedo de Dios se escribi?. > Mas si osare un extra?o enemigo > profanar con su planta tu suelo, > Piensa ?Oh Patria querida! que el cielo > Un soldado en cada hijo te di?. > > II > > En sangrientos combates los viste > Por tu amor palpitando sus senos, > Arrostrar la metralla serenos, > Y la muerte o la gloria buscar. > Si el recuerdo de antiguas haza?as, > De tus hijos inflama la mente, > Los laureles del triunfo, tu frente, > Volver?n inmortales a ornar. > > III > > Como al golpe del rayo la encina > Se derrumba hasta el hondo torrente > La discordia vencida, impotente, > A los pies del arc?ngel cay?. > Ya no m?s de tus hijos la sangre > se derrame en contienda de hermanos; > Solo encuentre el acero en tus manos > Quien tu nombre sagrado insult?. > > IV > > Del guerrero inmortal de Zempoala > Te defiende la espada terrible, > Y sostiene su brazo invencible > Tu sagrado pend?n tricolor. > El ser? del feliz mexicano > en la paz y en la guerra el caudillo, > Porque el supo sus armas de brillo > Circundar en los campos de honor. > > V > > ?Guerra, guerra sin tregua al que intente > De la patria manchar los blasones! > ?Guerra, guerra! los patrios pendones > en las olas de sangre empapad. > ?Guerra, guerra! En el monte, en el valle, > Los ca?ones horr?sonos truenen > Y los ecos sonoros resuenen > Con las voces de ?Uni?n! ?Libertad! > > VI > > Antes, Patria, que inermes tus hijos > bajo el yugo su cuello dobleguen, > Tus campi?as con sangre se rieguen, > Sobre sangre se estampe su pie. > Y tus templos, palacios y torres > se derrumben con h?rrido estruendo, > Y sus ruinas existan diciendo: > De mil h?roes la patria aqu? fu?. > > VII > > Si a la lid contra hueste enemiga > Nos convoca la trompa guerrera, > De Iturbide la sacra bandera > ?Mexicanos! valientes seguid. > Y a los fieros bridones les sirvan > Las vencidas ense?as de alfombra: > Los laureles del triunfo den sombra > A la frente del bravo adalid. > > VIII > > Vuelva altivo a los patrios hogares > El guerrero a contar su victoria, > Ostentando las palmas de gloria > Que supiera en la lid conquistar. > Torn?ranse sus lauros sangrientos > En guirnaldas de mirtos y rosas, > Que el amor de las hijas y esposas > Tambi?n sabe a los bravos premiar. > > IX > > Y el que al golpe de ardiente metralla > De la Patria en las aras sucumba > Obtendr? en recompensa una tumba > Donde brille de gloria la luz. > Y de Iguala la ense?a querida > A su espada sangrienta enlazada, > De laurel inmortal coronada, > Formar? de su fosa la cruz. > > X > > ?Patria! ?Patria! tus hijos te juran > exhalar en tus aras su aliento, > Si el clar?n con su b?lico acento > Los convoca a lidiar con valor. > ?Para t? las guirnaldas de oliva; > ?Un recuerdo para ellos de gloria! > ?Un laurel para ti de victoria; > ?Un sepulcro para ellos de honor! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: R. Joe Campbell > To: Multiple recipients of list > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 10:23 PM > Subject: Mexico's national anthem > > > Nocnihuan, > > I have my hand out again. A good friend of mine wants to locate the > > lyrics of the national anthem of Mexico in Nahuatl. I have the possibly > > faulty recollection of having seen them in print, but I have a verified > > memory failure as to where! Can someone either supply "la letra" or tell > > me where to look? I would appreciate it cenca miac. > > > > > > Tlazohcamati huel miac, > > > > Joe > > > > From Kexa14 at aol.com Fri Jan 7 02:09:26 2000 From: Kexa14 at aol.com (Kexa14 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 19:09:26 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl Summer Language Institute II: Becas Message-ID: In a message dated 00-01-05 13:33:50 EST, you write: << Jonathan.amith at yale.edu >> My name is Lisa Gracia Subia I am writing to you in responce to the letter I received, I am a single mother of three and can not afford to attend school, I however go to librarys and use the net to find anything I can on nahuatl language, so that I can learn it and teach it to my children. I would greatly appreciate it if I could obtain the books and tapes or any of the educational materials that may be purchased so that I can learn nahuatl. If it is at all possible. I live in Oregon and my aol address is kexa14 at aol.com , my home number is 503 659-7482, I thank you, and hope to hear from you soon. From Kexa14 at aol.com Fri Jan 7 02:12:18 2000 From: Kexa14 at aol.com (Kexa14 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 19:12:18 -0700 Subject: info nahuat-l Message-ID: I was for some reason unable to receive the e-mail you sent please retry sending it in another format, I greatly appreciate all nahuatl information,educational reading material, or any thing nahuatl. than you From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx Fri Jan 7 04:34:34 2000 From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:34:34 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: Joe, I can't find the rest of the San Luis version, but here is the version from the elementary school bilingual text, "Nahuatlajtoli tlen Uaxtekapaj tlali. Lengua N?huatl, de la regi?n huasteca. Segundo ciclo", published by the Secretar?a de Educaci?n P?blica in 1995. Anauak Kuikayotl (Kuikatl) Mexko euanij ma tiyakaj yaoyokan xijkualtlali kauayoj uan tepostli ma kakisti ipan tlajko tlaltipaktli san ontlatsinis tepostlatopontli. (1 Kuikayotsij) !Anauak tlali!, ximokuaxochiyoti pakilistli toteko mitsaxkatij ipan iluikatl mosenpanemilis toteko imajpil kiijkuiloj. Tla moketsas se yaotl uan kinekis motlaltipak ipan mokejketsas, xiyolmajto, anauak, tlaltipaktli se yaotlakatl mitsaxkatijtok. (Kuikatl) (4 Kuikayotsij) !Anauak!, mokoneuaj moneltemakaj motlaixpantenoj kitlaliaj inajuiyaka, tla tlapitstli yaoyotl kintenkixtia kintilana ma neltlateiukij. !Xochikoskatl timitsaxkatiaj! !Tikinmakaj neskayotlanilistli! !Tlatlanini ejepajtli tikinmakaj! !Tikinkauaj mijkatlatsaktipaj! John Sullivan Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas -----Mensaje original----- De: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu [mailto:nahuat-l at server.umt.edu]En nombre de R. Joe Campbell Enviado el: Mi?rcoles, 05 de Enero de 2000 10:24 p.m. Para: Multiple recipients of list Asunto: Mexico's national anthem Nocnihuan, I have my hand out again. A good friend of mine wants to locate the lyrics of the national anthem of Mexico in Nahuatl. I have the possibly faulty recollection of having seen them in print, but I have a verified memory failure as to where! Can someone either supply "la letra" or tell me where to look? I would appreciate it cenca miac. Tlazohcamati huel miac, Joe From Kexa14 at aol.com Fri Jan 7 05:00:15 2000 From: Kexa14 at aol.com (Kexa14 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 22:00:15 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: i thank you greatly!!!!!! From Kexa14 at aol.com Fri Jan 7 05:02:59 2000 From: Kexa14 at aol.com (Kexa14 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 22:02:59 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: where can i get this elemantary school bilingual text that contains the nahuatl language in it? From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Jan 7 07:46:14 2000 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:46:14 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: John, Thanks a million!! Of course, this does little to encourage my sense of responsibility... Now I can continue my ethic of "extraviamiento" with impunity. Joe On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, John Sullivan Hendricks wrote: > Joe, > =09I can't find the rest of the San Luis version, but here is the version= from > the elementary school bilingual text, "Nahuatlajtoli tlen Uaxtekapaj tlal= i. > Lengua N=E1huatl, de la regi=F3n huasteca. Segundo ciclo", published by = the > Secretar=EDa de Educaci=F3n P=FAblica in 1995. >=20 From Kexa14 at aol.com Fri Jan 7 08:11:53 2000 From: Kexa14 at aol.com (Kexa14 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 01:11:53 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: im on aol and as far as i know aol doesnt understand java which i assume this was written in. So if its possible can it be written in another way so that i can recieve this?? Please??? From jonathan.amith at yale.edu Tue Jan 11 08:29:00 2000 From: jonathan.amith at yale.edu (Jonathan Amith) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 01:29:00 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl Summer Language Institute II: Becas Message-ID: Dear Lisa, Thank you for your enquiry. Some material is on the net at http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl look at the links to dictionary and lessons and exercises. I'd be glad to help in any way I can. I might have some materials here at home, too. By the way, I live in Dallas, near Salem, so we might be neighbors. Please feel free to call at 503/831-3151. Sorry for this brief note, hopefully we'll be in touch. Jonathan On Thu, 6 Jan 2000 Kexa14 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 00-01-05 13:33:50 EST, you write: > > << Jonathan.amith at yale.edu >> > My name is Lisa Gracia Subia I am writing to you in responce to the letter I > received, > I am a single mother of three and can not afford to attend school, I however > go to librarys and use the net to find anything I can on nahuatl language, so > that I can learn it and teach it to my children. I would greatly appreciate > it if I could obtain the books and tapes or any of the educational materials > that may be purchased so that I can learn nahuatl. If it is at all possible. > I live in Oregon and my aol address is kexa14 at aol.com , my home number is > 503 659-7482, I thank you, and hope to hear from you soon. > From scalderon at spin.com.mx Mon Jan 17 16:59:57 2000 From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:59:57 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: This is the last message I received from the list. Why isn't working anymore. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 2:15 AM Subject: Re: Mexico's national anthem > im on aol and as far as i know aol doesnt understand java which i assume this > was written in. So if its possible can it be written in another way so that i > can recieve this?? Please??? > From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu Mon Jan 17 17:28:23 2000 From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:28:23 -0700 Subject: nepantla Message-ID: In the preface to _The Darker Side of the Renaissance_, Walter Mignolo states that the word "nepantla" was "coined by Nahuatl speakers in New Spain during the sixteenth century to designate the inter-space between cultures" (xvi). I am familiar with the word, but I was not aware that it was coined in the sixteenth century. Mignolo doesn't give any source for this claim. Does anyone have any information either supporting or negating it? Thanks, Galen From dfrye at umich.edu Mon Jan 17 18:51:49 2000 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:51:49 -0700 Subject: nepantla Message-ID: Mignolo may have gotten this idea from an article that Klor de Alva wrote, lo these many years ago -- I think it was his contribution to _The Inca and Aztec states, 1400-1800_ ("Spiritual conflict and accommodation in New Spain: toward a typology of Aztec responses to Christianity"). Mignolo cites some other things by Klor de Alva from the same period, and I am sure he is familiar with this article. There is also poet Pat Mora's book, _Nepantla: Essays from the Land in the Middle_ (1993). I'm sure neither of them claim that the word was coined in the 16th c, but rather that it was first used then to refer to the betwixt-and-betweenness of Nahuas dealing with their conquered society. On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Galen Brokaw wrote: > > In the preface to _The Darker Side of the Renaissance_, Walter Mignolo > states that the word "nepantla" was "coined by Nahuatl speakers in New > Spain during the sixteenth century to designate the inter-space between > cultures" (xvi). > I am familiar with the word, but I was not aware that it was coined in > the sixteenth century. Mignolo doesn't give any source for this claim. > Does anyone have any information either supporting or negating it? > Thanks, > Galen > From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Mon Jan 17 21:24:30 2000 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:24:30 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, [iso-8859-1] Salvador Calder=F3n wrote: |This is the last message I received from the list. Why isn't working |anymore. I remember the one you quoted. From XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com Mon Jan 17 22:26:09 2000 From: XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com (XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 15:26:09 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: Hello, all! I'm a longtime lurker and lapsed subscriber back on the list, this time with a new fiction project under way and seeking Nahua lore about Fireflies. In Jill Leslie McKeever Furst's chapter on "The Glowing Ihiyotl" in _The Natural History of the Soul in Ancient Mexico_ she writes a bit about the "Spirit as a Gaseuous, Glowing Entity" and relates tales that describe some Nahua souls as being firefly-like in that they glow and float and mysteriously ficker, like lanterns, meteors or shooting stars. Furst relates a belief among the people in Sierra Norte de Puebla that the tonalli is interlaced with a shadow-soul (ecahuil) that is "a little like air [and] no more, it is like a little lightening flash [and] no more, it is like a little ray of light." Lights like this are feared to be shapeshifting sorcerers, and further north across the border, are associated with the spirits of excpetionally powerful people. A few tales tell of a body's soul actually transforming into a firefly and flying away upon death. I can't find much else on the natural history and mythic lore for Fireflies as they appeared the Nahua worldview, either as souls, sorcerers, or simply humble insects, and a keyword search of the Nahtuat-L archives bring up only glosses for the word. Beyond McKeever Furst, I've combed my standard bedside texts by Soustelle, Leon-Portilla, Bierhorst, Caso, Clendinnen, and even extensively on the Web. Not a word. Yet my curiosity remains. :-) Any other lore, glyphs, anecdotes or analyses of the Firefly-as-insect or Firefly-as-metaphor in Nahua thought would be welcomed. Best, Alison King From ECOLING at aol.com Tue Jan 18 06:15:16 2000 From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 23:15:16 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: Alison King: I'd love copies of any good references you receive on this, I'm collecting info on pre-columbian insects fairly broadly. Lloyd Anderson Ecological Linguistics From rude at leland.Stanford.EDU Tue Jan 18 06:19:08 2000 From: rude at leland.Stanford.EDU (Rudiger V. Busto) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 23:19:08 -0700 Subject: nepantla Message-ID: The term appears in Diego Duran's work referring to the predicament of religious "inbetweenness" by his Christianized Nahuas. The term has received new attention by Chicanos/as as another way to refer to the"borderlands" identity of life "between the hyphen". I am currently completing a chapter for a book on Chicano religions that traces the nepantla idea up through the recent Chicano uses -- any other references to early uses of the term would be, certainly welcome. >In the preface to _The Darker Side of the Renaissance_, Walter Mignolo >states that the word "nepantla" was "coined by Nahuatl speakers in New >Spain during the sixteenth century to designate the inter-space between >cultures" (xvi). >I am familiar with the word, but I was not aware that it was coined in >the sixteenth century. Mignolo doesn't give any source for this claim. >Does anyone have any information either supporting or negating it? >Thanks, >Galen ************************************************* Rudy V. Busto rude at leland.stanford.edu Assistant Professor 415.552.0257 Religious Studies Stanford University (ON LEAVE 1999-2000) From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Jan 18 18:42:29 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:42:29 -0700 Subject: nepantla Message-ID: Duran's authorship is correcrt. The term was made popular by Miguel Leon Portilla in an article he did many years ago on Nahua under the Spanish. I don't have the reference, right at hand, but will look for it. J. F. Schwaller John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu Tue Jan 18 19:33:42 2000 From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:33:42 -0700 Subject: nepantla Message-ID: Thanks to those who replied to my request. For those interested, I will list here the references for the articles mentioned by David and Fritz. The Klor de Alva article has a section on "neplantism" and he cites Leon-Portilla's article and a paragraph from Duran. Klor de Alva, Jorge. "Spiritual Conflict and Accomodation in New Spain: Toward a Typology of Aztec Responses to Christianity." _The Inca and Aztec States, 1400-1800_. New York: Academic Press. 345-366. Leon-Portilla, Miguel. "Testimonios nahuas sobre la conquista espiritual." _Estudios de Cultura Nahuatl_ 11 (1974): 11-36. Thanks, Galen From Kexa14 at aol.com Tue Jan 18 19:36:36 2000 From: Kexa14 at aol.com (Kexa14 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:36:36 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: well if you remember what i quoated, then it must mean something, send the info and not in java so, we, who want to learn can. From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Tue Jan 18 21:18:36 2000 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:18:36 -0700 Subject: Mexico's national anthem Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2000 Kexa14 at aol.com wrote: |well if you remember what i quoated, then it must mean something, send |the info and not in java so, we, who want to learn can. The problem being, I already deleted it from my emailbox... Now, if this were available as a newsgroup on Usenet, we wouldn't be running into this problem. Where our 'browsers' are found wanting, we could always look stuff up at http://www.deja.com or http://www.remarq.com (sigh)... Anyway, maybe somebody (or maybe me?) will submit at RFD for the creation of a newsgroup named sci.lang.nahuatl ??? From gingeriw at stjohns.edu Tue Jan 18 23:33:38 2000 From: gingeriw at stjohns.edu (Gingerich Willard P.) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:33:38 -0700 Subject: nepantla Message-ID: I believe the original Leon-Portilla reference is "Testimonios nahuas sobre la conquista espiritual," Estudios de cultura nahuatl, 11 (1974): 11-36. Willard Gingerich Associate Provost for Graduate Studies Research & International Programs St. John's University 8000 Utopia Pkwy Jamaica, NY 11349 718-990-1442 FAX 718-990-1894 gingeriw at stjohns.edu -----Original Message----- From: John F. Schwaller [SMTP:schwallr at selway.umt.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 1:46 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: nepantla Duran's authorship is correcrt. The term was made popular by Miguel Leon Portilla in an article he did many years ago on Nahua under the Spanish. I don't have the reference, right at hand, but will look for it. J. F. Schwaller John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com Wed Jan 19 03:41:52 2000 From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:41:52 -0700 Subject: Segunda vez: Dia de muertos Message-ID: Dear Members, I am sending this message once again because nobody responded the first=20 time. I=92ve taken the accents and other diacritical marks out of the Spanis= h=20 text because two members said that on their computers the accents had been=20 converted to hard-to-understand symbols. I realize that it is somewhat=20 cumbersome to read Spanish without the diacritical marks, but it=92s a=20 trade-off, better cumbersome than unreadable.(Original message below) I include an article that a friend sent me from the Diario de Yucatan=20 concerning "el dia de los muertos". The thing that is puzzling, is the idea=20 that the Mayans regarded death with such fear and terror. Later in the=20 article it talks about hell. From what I've understood in my previous studie= s=20 is that the concept of "hell" was imported into indigenous thought. Can=20 anyone indicate how accurate the article is, and explain in brief if the=20 Aztec view of after life was that different from other Mesoamerican peoples.= ?=20 Thanks. Henry Vasquez Cronicas de Isla Mujeres (y II) =20 La vision de los antiguos mayas sobre el "mas alla", origen de la actual tradicion del Dia de Muertos =20 El origen del festejo del Dia de Muertos viene de la epoca prehispanica y para conocerlo acotamos aqui algunos conceptos del cronista franciscano fray Diego de Landa, quien escribio: "Creian (los mayas) que despues de la muerte habia otra vida, y que esta era buena o mala... Esta gente tenia mucho, excesivo temor a la muerte... Era cosa de ver las lastimas y llantos que por sus difuntos hacian y la tristeza grande que les causaban. Llorabanlos de dia en silencio y de noche en altos y muy dolorosos gritos... Andaban tristes muchos dias y hacian abstinencia y ayuno por el difunto". =20 Continua el fraile: "Muertos, los amortajaban llenandoles la boca de maiz molido y de una bebida... y con ellos algunas piedras (como jade) de las que tienen por moneda para que en la otra vida no les faltase de comer. Enterrabanlos dentro de sus casas o a las espaldas de ellas, echandoles en la sepultura algunos de sus idolos, y si era sacerdote algunos de sus libros". =20 En algunas regiones mayas, si el muerto era un alto dignatario tanto su mujer como sus sirvientes eran sacrificados y enterrados con el fallecido, incluyendo sus pertenencias, como artes de labranza o caceria. =20 Senala tamben el Padre Landa que los mayas construian idolos a semejanza del difunto. A la estatuilla le hacian un orificio en la parte superior de la cabeza y ahi depositaban las cenizas de alguna parte del cuerpo del muerto, al cual, ademas, le desollaban previamente parte del cuero cabelludo y con eso cubrian el orificio del idolo. =20 "Guardaban estas estatuas con mucha reverencia", agrega el religioso. =20 Como informaci=F3n mas contemporanea (1935-1937), incluyamos un texto del etnografo Alfonso Villa Rojas, quien en su obra "Los elegidos de Dios" expresa: "Las almas de los muertos no se alejan enseguida de la tierra, sino que permanecen entre sus familiares llevando la vida de costumbre y sin darse cuenta de su cambio de estado". =20 "La revelacion de lo ocurrido tiene lugar hasta el tercer dia en que, estando presentes en el rezo que entonces se habra de efectuar, oyen mencionar su nombre como el de la persona fallecida= .=20 Este descubrimiento les causa profunda amargura y les hace llorar sobre su=20 fosa toda la noche. En ocasiones el llanto es escuchado por los vecinos. Al=20 amanecer del dia siguiente emprenden el viaje hacia el lugar que les corresponda". =20 "En su otra vida, las almas reciben el premio o el castigo que ganaron con su conducta terrenal. Los mayas sustentan que, con=20 excepcion de las almas que van al infierno, todas la demas retornan=20 anualmente a la tierra para disfrutar de una semana de vacaciones entre sus=20 familiares. Como agasajo, es costumbre dedicarles rezos y comidas durante es= e=20 tiempo, de aqui que tal costumbre sea conocida con el nombre de Hanal Pixan=20= o=20 Comida de las Almas". De acuerdo con la creencia, "las primeras en hacerse=20 presentes son las almas de los ninos, las cuales llegan a la tierra en la=20 madrugada del 31 de octubre, este es el dia de los ninos. Para recibirlos=20 debidamente se les dedican a modo de desayuno ofrendas de atole nuevo (sahza= )=20 y elotes sancochados (chabil-nal). Este acto tiene lugar en la iglesia y=20 oratorios (altares) familiares... El desempe=F1o de la ceremonia queda a cargo de cualquier varon que sepa el ritual correspondiente. Los familiares y personas concurrentes son=20 obsequiadas luego de las cosas ofrendadas". =20 "Por la tarde se repite el homenaje con ofrendas de platillos=20 especiales, tales como gallina guisada (chacbil-cax), dulce de calabaza=20 (cabil-kun), pedazos de sandia, atole nuevo, chocolate, galletas y otras=20 golosinas. Para compartir del regalo (matam) que se hace de estas cosas al terminarse de rezar, los vecinos se invitan mutuamente y con la=20 abundancia de comidas y golosinas especiales el ambiente se hace festivo". "Por la noche se enciende una vela sobre cada tumba, barda o albarrada= =20 para que los angeles vean su camino. Al dia siguiente, en la madrugada llega= n=20 la almas de los adultos, se les reciben de modo igual con los mismos rezos;=20 ademas, sus tumbas son barridas y adornadas con flores de Chacsikin". La flor de zempatzuchitl o cempasuchil a la que se recurre ahora no es= =20 originaria de esta region. Y continua Villa Rojas: "Por la tarde, el homenaj= e=20 se efectua en las casas, alli, sobre una mesa, se improvisa un altar en el=20 que se pone la cruz fiadora de la familia, una vela encendida y las ofrendas= =20 correspondientes para esta ocasion. La comida principal consiste en chimole=20 de gallina o de puerco, las bebidas y golosinas que se a=F1aden son iguales a las del d=EDa anterior. Como de costumbre, los vecinos se=20 obsequiar=E1n de esta ofrendas". "Por la noche no es preciso encender velas sobre sus tumbas, en=20 virtud de que las almas de los grandes pueden ver facilmente su camino". Tanto en el dia dedicado a los ninos como en el de los adultos se tiene=20 cuidado de separar una parte de las ofrendas y colocarlas en una jicara que=20 se cuelga de un sosten a la entrada de la casa para las almas que no tiene quienes se acuerden de ellas. Comenta tambien el investigador que en los siguientes dias algunas=20 familias muy religiosas se ocupan de rezar y hacer pequenas ofrendas a sus=20 difuntos y al llegar el octavo dia, cuando concluye la semana de vacaciones,= =20 se despide a las almas con los mismos festejos que a su llegada. Dice Villa Rojas: "El dia siete de noviembre tiene lugar la despedid= a=20 (ochavario) de los ninos y al dia siguiente, la de los grandes". "Entre las=20 comidas que se ofrecen en ambos dias se debe incluir como platillo especial=20 el llamado chachcuah, especie de pastel relleno de pollo y coloreado de=20 achiote, el cocimiento de este platillo se ha de hacer en el pib u horno=20 subterraneo". A grandes rasgos, esta es la tradicion de nuestro Dia de Muertos, tan= =20 alterada por la inmigracion de personas con otras costumbres. Si bien es=20 cierto que ninguna tradicion permanece estatica, bueno seria tratar de=20 conservar al menos los elementos basicos del festejo, en especial por el=20 respeto y admiracion que propios y extranos tienen por la cultura maya, tan=20 denigrada ahora hasta por quienes descendemos de tan ilustre raza. Luchar por conservar nuestras costumbres y tradiciones es tarea de=20 todos. Es comun que en algunas escuelas los alumnos sean motivo de burla por= =20 llevar apellidos mayas, porque se ignora que hay demasiadas razones para=20 estar orgullosos del legado de un pueblo que sigue sorprendiendo al mundo po= r=20 sus magnificas construcciones y que a final de cuentas son solo una pequena=20 muestra de los notables avances de la milenaria cultura.- (Colaboracion del Sr. Fidel Villanueva Madrid, cronista de la ciudad de Isla Mujeres) From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jan 19 15:03:24 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:03:24 -0700 Subject: CIC Foreign Language Enhancement Program scholarships (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- The Committee on Institutional Cooperation (CIC) Foreign Language Enhancement Program (FLEP) is offering scholarships for summer language study during the summer, 1999. The program encourages graduate students to take advantage of infrequently taught languages not available to them at their home universities. This summer thirty (30) scholarships of up to $2,000 will be awarded to cover living expenses while attending another CIC host institution. Applicants must be pursuing a graduate degree at one of the twelve (12) participating CIC institutions listed below and can travel to any CIC institution. FLEP recipients may also apply for the Traveling Scholar Program which enables them to attend a host CIC institution while paying tuition and fees at their home university. This program is helpful for students eligible for summer fee waivers on their home campus. Students may NOT apply for a language at your home institution. The FLEP application deadline is FEBRUARY 15, 2000. FLEP applications and Traveling Scholar Program applications are available from Jody Smith, Research and the University Graduate School, Kirkwood Hall 111, Bloomington, IN 47405 (phone 855-4010 or e-mail josmith at indiana.edu). A list of foreign languages expected to be taught at the CIC universities in the summer of 1999 will be available from Mrs. Smith in late January. You may also obtain information regarding either program via World Wide Web at http://www.cic.uiuc.edu/. Participating universities: University of Chicago, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Indiana University, University of Iowa, University of Michigan, Michigan State University, University of Minnesota, Northwestern University, The Ohio State University, Pennsylvania State University, Purdue University, and University of Wisconsin-Madison. From ECOLING at aol.com Wed Jan 19 16:04:01 2000 From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:04:01 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl-Cora/Huichol separation Message-ID: Someone asked me privately, and rather than look up in some reference work, I thought I should ask this list for the best current views. At what date is Nahuatl supposed to have separated from its closest relatives in Uto-Aztecan, Cora and Huichol? Would that have been in the location where Cora and Huichol were at time of contact with Europeans? Or did they separate earlier, and both continue south along the Cordillera to their positions more or less at time of contact with Europeans? Or some other scenario? I assume Cora and Huichol are still regarded as the closest relatives of Nahuatl? Thanks for any enlightening comments, either on the list or privately. Sincerely yours, Lloyd Anderson From XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com Wed Jan 19 23:31:03 2000 From: XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com (XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:31:03 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: If it helps spark anyone's memory or interest on the subject of glowing firefly-souls, I did eventually find a line drawing on Thomas Frederiksen's Aztec Resource Center site of http://northcoast.com/~spdtom/graphics/a-121.jpg "OMETECUHTLI - The creator God shown placing the fire butterfly, or soul, into a skull. Black and white line drawing from the codex Fejervary-Mayar." I am not familiar with this codex -- is anyone here? It most definitely looks like a butterfly rather than firefly beetle because of the curly "tongue" and "antennae", but it doesn't have very butterfly-like wings in compare to nature or the Toltec-style butterfly shape. Thoughts? Alison King From PABLO_CRUZ at prodigy.net Thu Jan 20 03:35:18 2000 From: PABLO_CRUZ at prodigy.net (Paul Senzee) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:35:18 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: Hi! I've been a lurker also for a long time, I have a huge fascination with nahua due to some experiences I had in the Sierra Norte de Puebla while I lived there for a few years, a few years ago. In talking with some of the inhabitants of some of the tinier villages of that area, I learned a few words - however, hardly enough to contribute anything of use to this list. Nevertheless, I lived for a while in Metepec, small village north of Atlixco, it seemed the most mystical place I've ever been. They seemed to have a huge fascination with little lights around the volcano Popocatepetl. Most said they were UFOs, others said they were other various manifestations. My point is, could this superstition, what seemed to me to be extreme fascination with these lights, whatever they were, be related? By the way, for a while I've been interested in collaborative literature and other collaborative arts via the internet. I'm a software guy by trade and we've recently debuted (although it's not really yet complete) a website devoted to collaborating in the creation of literature and other arts. It's at http://www.fragrantvagrant.com I would *love* to see a collaborative work in or about nahua, as some of the knowledge on this list is phenomenal!! Anyhow it's a thought. Tell me what you all think - I'm at pablo_cruz at prodigy.net. Paul Senzee -----Original Message----- From: XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Monday, January 17, 2000 4:30 PM Subject: Firefly Lore >Hello, all! > >I'm a longtime lurker and lapsed subscriber back on the list, this time with >a new fiction project under way and seeking Nahua lore about Fireflies. > >In Jill Leslie McKeever Furst's chapter on "The Glowing Ihiyotl" in _The >Natural History of the Soul in Ancient Mexico_ she writes a bit about the >"Spirit as a Gaseuous, Glowing Entity" and relates tales that describe some >Nahua souls as being firefly-like in that they glow and float and >mysteriously ficker, like lanterns, meteors or shooting stars. > >Furst relates a belief among the people in Sierra Norte de Puebla that the >tonalli is interlaced with a shadow-soul (ecahuil) that is "a little like air >[and] no more, it is like a little lightening flash [and] no more, it is like >a little ray of light." Lights like this are feared to be shapeshifting >sorcerers, and further north across the border, are associated with the >spirits of excpetionally powerful people. A few tales tell of a body's soul >actually transforming into a firefly and flying away upon death. > >I can't find much else on the natural history and mythic lore for Fireflies >as they appeared the Nahua worldview, either as souls, sorcerers, or simply >humble insects, and a keyword search of the Nahtuat-L archives bring up only >glosses for the word. Beyond McKeever Furst, I've combed my standard bedside >texts by Soustelle, Leon-Portilla, Bierhorst, Caso, Clendinnen, and even >extensively on the Web. Not a word. Yet my curiosity remains. :-) > >Any other lore, glyphs, anecdotes or analyses of the Firefly-as-insect or >Firefly-as-metaphor in Nahua thought would be welcomed. > >Best, >Alison King > From XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com Thu Jan 20 06:29:06 2000 From: XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com (XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:29:06 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: In a message dated 1/19/00 8:36:18 PM, PABLO_CRUZ at prodigy.net writes: << Nevertheless, I lived for a while in Metepec, small village north of Atlixco, it seemed the most mystical place I've ever been. They seemed to have a huge fascination with little lights around the volcano Popocatepetl. Most said they were UFOs, others said they were other various manifestations. My point is, could this superstition, what seemed to me to be extreme fascination with these lights, whatever they were, be related? >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Glad to hear another report from the field. :-) This meshes neatly with what J.L. McKeever Furst writes about of people in the same region, whose "major worry is the witch, or nahualli, a terrifying and malevolent being whose activities are known in catastrophies, misfortune and illnesses, whose lanterns dance along trails at night." Lights are also associated with "the tlahuepoches, or dangerous nocturnal birds that suck blood from adults (but prefer the blood of infants) through lo ng beaks they use as suction tubes." .... "In Alta, these fearsome tlahuepoches either carry lights or emit a glow themselves." (Quotes pulled from Jill Leslie McKeever Furst in _The Natural History of the Soul in Ancient Mexico_ p 156-7) I located a supernaturalistic rendering of what can only be a genuine FIREFLY INSECT in the Codex Nuttall this afternoon. Will upload a temporary scan of it to my website later tonight for comment and interpretation of its placement in relation to the rest of what's around it. Inspired by the fire-butterly-placement illustration I found today on Frederiksen's site, I'm also re-reading about the phenomenon of "fire-drilling" the tonalli into the body, which is much like a spark that glows. Any other comments on this phenomenon are welcome. Thinking aloud.... Alison King From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Thu Jan 20 07:17:45 2000 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:17:45 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com wrote: |In a message dated 1/19/00 8:36:18 PM, PABLO_CRUZ at prodigy.net writes: | |<< Nevertheless, I lived for a while in Metepec, small village north of |Atlixco, it seemed the most mystical place I've ever been. They seemed |to have a huge fascination with little lights around the volcano |Popocatepetl. Most said they were UFOs, others said they were other |various manifestations. | |My point is, could this superstition, what seemed to me to be extreme |fascination with these lights, whatever they were, be related? >> I have had the good fortune of hiking around Mt. St. Helens in 1982 and 1983 (technically within the 5 mile "red" zone, where I could have been ticketed) at midnight, and through 3 am. Yes, when the hot air of the volcano rises up into the cold air, lights appear. They are usually ill-defined sheets and balls of flashing light, very similar to lightening, sometimes reminiscent of fluorescent lighting behind a shroud of clouds or fog, and usually but not always without the accompaniment of crisk crackling thunder. :) Quite a sight to see. My theory is that the difference in temperatures results in wholesale electrical disturbances, maybe not so well-defined as to be "lightning" but definitely luminescent in origin. I was only about 2,000 feet from the wonderful night-phenomena! A great sight to see, and which I have not seen since. It was not until I traveled to the Midwest that I finally got to see my first fireflies, just about the only thing I miss from my brief stay in Michigan. (Sigh!) From dfrye at umich.edu Thu Jan 20 15:54:11 2000 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:54:11 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: Likewise in Mexquitic, SLP (one of the former Tlaxcalan settlements in the north, where Nahuatl was spoken until 1850 or so). "Brujas" (there is no nahuatl word used) are seen as lights dancing along the hills at night, and are said to come into houses to suck people dry -- why else do old people look so wrinkled, after all? But in the three years I lived in Mexquitic I don't recall ever seeing a firefly -- too high & dry, I suppose. The "naturalistic" explanation of the lights would probably be lightning flashes. > This meshes neatly with what J.L. McKeever Furst writes about of people in > the same region, whose "major worry is the witch, or nahualli, a terrifying > and malevolent being whose activities are known in catastrophies, misfortune > and illnesses, whose lanterns dance along trails at night." > Lights are also associated with "the tlahuepoches, or dangerous nocturnal > birds that suck blood from adults (but prefer the blood of infants) through lo > ng beaks they use as suction tubes." .... "In Alta, these fearsome > tlahuepoches either carry lights or emit a glow themselves." From mikegaby at hotmail.com Thu Jan 20 18:51:52 2000 From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:51:52 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: The recent posting about lights near volcanoes put me in mind of the Highland concept of the lightening in the blood which day-keepers, shamans and healers of varying degrees interpret when divining and prognasticating for their clients. The Quiche connect it to the sheet lightening they see over the distant lakes, but the Zapotec patrilineage shaman I met with mentioned the dancing light that fill their stones (used in divining), make their blood speak. Mike Gaby ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Thu Jan 20 21:53:31 2000 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:53:31 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, mike gaby wrote: |The recent posting about lights near volcanoes put me in mind of the |Highland concept of the lightening in the blood which day-keepers, I apologize for misspelling 'lightning' in my previous message, but seeing as how the senses are pretty close, the error was not too far off. :) |shamans and healers of varying degrees interpret when divining and |prognasticating for their clients. The Quiche connect it to the sheet |lightening they see over the distant lakes, but the Zapotec patrilineage |shaman I met with mentioned the dancing light that fill their stones |(used in divining), make their blood speak. Very interesting! From webmaster at linguasphere.org Thu Jan 20 23:28:10 2000 From: webmaster at linguasphere.org (webmaster (by way of schwallr@selway.umt.edu)) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:28:10 -0700 Subject: The Linguasphere Register of the World's Languages and Speech Message-ID: Please could the following announcement be distributed to members of the NAHUAT-L mailing list: The Linguasphere Observatory is a research network devoted to the classification of the world's languages and dialects, the study and promotion of multilingualism and the exploration of our global linguistic environment. The Linguasphere website (www.linguasphere.org ) currently contains extracts from the forthcoming Linguasphere Register of the World's Languages and Speech Communities, including: NORTH-AMERICAN languages from CREE to NAHUATL The observatory would be very grateful to receive comments from linguists on the extracts, which can be viewed and downloaded (together with an explanation of the methodology used entitled Guide to Extracts) - by selecting the Download Extracts button on the homepage. Any scientific support will of course be fully acknowledged. David Dalby Director - Linguasphere Observatory research at linguasphere.org http://www.linguasphere.org From XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com Fri Jan 21 01:17:43 2000 From: XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com (XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:17:43 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: The images from the Codex Nuttall have been uploaded temporarily to: http://members.aol.com/xocoyocopitzin/images/nuttall.jpg From XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com Fri Jan 21 01:20:55 2000 From: XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com (XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:20:55 -0700 Subject: Firefly Lore Message-ID: Whoops, that incomplete mail was sent prematurely by accident :-/ The firefly images from the Codex Nuttall have been temporarily uploaded to: (closeup) http://members.aol.com/xocoyocopitzin/images/nuttall.jpg (zoomed out) http://members.aol.com/xocoyocopitzin/images/nuttall2.jpg Use of these images for scholarly discussion is in no way intended as an infringement of Dover Publication's copyright, and both will be removed when discussion is over. Thoughts on the context of the insect? Alison King From putt2win at fuse.net Sat Jan 22 15:36:45 2000 From: putt2win at fuse.net (Mike Moore) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 08:36:45 -0700 Subject: Aztec Language Message-ID: --------------2F14D50E0B4A8E4253920D69 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good morning. I am trying to find a couple of words in the Aztec language, and was wondering if you could help me? Here's the situation: I am in the processing of purchasing an Aztec Corn Snake from a breeder in Florida. This particular breed of corn snake is a beautiful breed of snake, and I would like to give him or her a special name. Here are the words I am looking to translate into aztec: * Snake * Beautiful * Serpent Are there any other words you could recommend? I know this probably sounds crazy to you, but I am very sincere about this request. Any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated. I hope to hear from you soon. Regards, Mike Moore --------------2F14D50E0B4A8E4253920D69 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good morning.  I am trying to find a couple of words in the Aztec language, and was wondering if you could help me?

Here's the situation:  I am in the processing of purchasing an Aztec Corn Snake from a breeder in Florida.  This particular breed of corn snake is a beautiful breed of snake, and I would like to give him or her a special name.

Here are the words I am looking to translate into aztec:
 

  • Snake
  • Beautiful
  • Serpent
Are there any other words you could recommend?  I know this probably sounds crazy to you, but I am very sincere about this request.  Any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated.

I hope to hear from you soon. Regards,

Mike Moore --------------2F14D50E0B4A8E4253920D69-- From malinal at evhr.net Sat Jan 22 17:24:38 2000 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:24:38 -0700 Subject: piedra que humea Message-ID: Message en plusieurs parties et au format MIME. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF6504.9F42E860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In classical nahuatl " popoca " and " ihpoca " mean both =91to smoke, to = emit smoke=92 but if they are related to stones (especialy " teoxihuitl = ", fine turquoise) they cannot be translated so.=20 With " huel popoca " is a high quality of the precious stone expressed = (Sah10,60. Sah11,222. Sah 6,113). In this context " popoca " doesn=92t = mean =91it smoke=92 but rather =91it is glowing, it is resplendent=92.=20 There are also compounds such as " xippopoca " or " teoxippopoca " which = mean =91to resplendent like turquoise or like fine turquoise=92 and = which are used to describe blue birds, the Blue honeycreeper (" = chalchiuhtototl ". Sah11,21) and the Costa hummingbird (" xiuhhuitzilin = ". Sah11,24).=20 But the smoke (metaphor ?) comes back. When those who were experts in = precious stones, at the early morning, sought stones, they used to find = the just place in seeing a little smoke (" poctontli ") above the place = where precious stones were buried (Sah11,221). I do not understand how = the =91smoke=92 can reveal the fineness of the stone. If anyone here can help me. Alexis Wimmer ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF6504.9F42E860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In classical nahuatl " popoca " and " ihpoca " = mean both=20 ‘to smoke, to emit smoke’ but if they are related to stones=20 (especialy " teoxihuitl ", fine turquoise) they cannot be = translated=20 so.

With " huel popoca " is a high quality of the precious = stone=20 expressed (Sah10,60. Sah11,222. Sah 6,113). In this context " = popoca "=20 doesn’t mean ‘it smoke’ but rather ‘it is = glowing, it is=20 resplendent’.

There are also compounds such as " xippopoca " or "=20 teoxippopoca " which mean ‘to resplendent like turquoise or = like fine=20 turquoise’ and which are used to describe blue birds, the Blue=20 honeycreeper (" chalchiuhtototl ". Sah11,21) and the Costa = hummingbird=20 (" xiuhhuitzilin ". Sah11,24).

But the smoke (metaphor ?) comes back. When those who were experts in = precious stones, at the early morning, sought stones, they used to find = the just=20 place in seeing a little smoke (" poctontli ") above the place = where=20 precious stones were buried (Sah11,221). I do not understand how the=20 ‘smoke’ can reveal the fineness of the stone.

If anyone here can help me.

Alexis Wimmer

 

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF6504.9F42E860-- From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com Sat Jan 22 22:29:23 2000 From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 15:29:23 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Saludos List Members, Friends in the Native American Community shared this with me. Henry Vasquez ***************************************************************** January 18 - 2000 Mexika Eagle Society calls for boycott of "Road to El Dorado" http://www.mexika.org CONTACT INFO: "Kurly" Tlapoyawa Mexika Eagle Society e-mail Godkillah at Hotmail.com Michelle Melendez Mexika Eagle Society e-mail Loxicha at Hotmail.com Phone (817) 390-7541 We the members of the Mexika Eagle Society call upon our indigenous brothers= =20 and sisters to join us in openly protesting and boycotting the animated film= =20 ``The Road to El Dorado,=92=92 scheduled to be released March 31, 2000. This= =20 film, produced by Dreamworks SKG, is a blatantly racist misrepresentation of= =20 native culture and history, masquerading as an innocent children=92s movie. It is extremely ignorant for the makers of ``El Dorado=92=92 to use the=20 slaughter and genocide of a people as the backdrop for a children=92s cartoo= n.=20 The film exacerbates every stereotype associated with native people,=20 including the alleged (but never proven) practice of human sacrifice, the=20 even more ludicrous notion of native people worshipping white men as =93Gods= =94=20 (even though the concept of =93God=94 did not exist in any native society),=20= and=20 of course, the European fantasy of native women falling in love with the=20 first white man they lay their eyes on. The story revolves around two white men (the heroes of course) who stumble=20 upon a map to El Dorado and journey to the ``New World=92=92 in search of go= ld.=20 Once there, they encounter an ignorant group of savages who quickly=20 pronounce them ``Gods,=92=92 and an enticing, voluptuous native woman who=20 quickly takes on the role of faithful sidekick. Then, of course, there=92s t= he=20 fanatical native ``priest=92=92 who lusts for personal power and calls for h= uman=20 sacrifice. Portraying native people in this fashion is like passing off Al=20 Jolson and Amos & Andy as black culture. Students learn very little about native people as it is. Making light of the= =20 European invasion of our land, even in a cartoon setting, is like making a=20 movie about the Holocause in which Germans are the heroes. This=20 misrepresentation of history only serves to reinforce and validate the=20 American public=92s total disregard for true native history. To dismiss it i= s=20 as a mere cartoon suggests that feeding racist lies to unwitting children is= =20 perfectly fine. It would be better for children to learn absolutely nothing=20 about native history than to hear these lies and have to unlearn them later=20 if they have any sense at all. What kind of twisted sense of self is this=20 film going to engender in young white kids who will see over and over again=20 how white people are superior in every way? We know how it would make our children feel - just as we were made to feel=20 by attending Eurocentric American schools and reading false history books.=20 The only history we were taught was the history of our conquest by white=20 people. That despite 99% of our history occuring before the arival of=20 Europeans, the only history that mattered was that of our being=20 ``civilized=92=92 and coming to know the great western way. Of course it should not surprise us that films like this exist. After all,=20 throughout the entire history of this nation, native people have been looked= =20 upon as being less than human. ``The Road to Eldorado=92=92 is but a link in= a=20 continuous chain of dehumanizing propaganda unleashed upon our people by=20 American society as a whole. Therefore, the Mexika Eagle Society urges everyone to boycott this film, as=20 well as any business=92 which do promotional tie-ins associated with the=20 movie. Please note: this is not some juvenile scheme about being respected=20 as a =93market=94 of consumers, or demanding respect for our =93buying power= .=94=20 These things mean nothing to us. This is about human dignity and having=20 respect for the history and traditions of others. In addition to boycotting=20 this film, join us in public protest by expressing your concerns in writing=20 to the powers at be at Dreamworks SKG: Call: (818) 733-7774 Patricia Gonzalez 100 Universal Plaza Bldg. 10 Universal City, CA 91608 (818) 733-7755 Fax (818) 733-7775 pgonzalez at dreamworks.com please forward your mail to: mefoote at hotmail.com jfang at dreamworks.com etabak at dreamworks.com sbilic at dreamworks.com celliott at dreamworks.com hbernstein at dreamworks.com When calling, let them know that you are part of a unified protest. If you=20 are a Mexika Eagle Society member, let them know it! Tell them: We demand that Dreamworks SKG place a disclaimer at the opening=20 of this movie in which they APOLOGIZE for the racist, stereotypical=20 representations of Native people and for the defamation of our character,=20 heritage and history! Also, WE DEMAND that as a show of good faith,=20 Dreamworks SKG establish a SCHOLARSHIP FUND for Native people! From ECOLING at aol.com Sun Jan 23 01:00:07 2000 From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:00:07 -0700 Subject: "Firefly" really a Wasp Message-ID: In a message dated 1/20/2000 9:21:39 PM, XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com writes: >http://members.aol.com/xocoyocopitzin/images/nuttall.jpg The illustration from the Codex Nuttall given just above, from the great marriage scene on p.19, is from one of the naming portions, the "Hill of the Wasp" as it is usually called. The wings are those identified with the wasp, and they occur also in the symbols for Venus, as "Wasp Star". The sharply pointed abdomen holds the stinger. The other major hill in that marriage scene is "Hill of Flints". Lloyd Anderson Ecological Linguistics From XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com Sun Jan 23 01:37:10 2000 From: XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com (XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:37:10 -0700 Subject: "Firefly" really a Wasp Message-ID: In a message dated 1/22/00 6:01:06 PM, ECOLING at aol.com writes: << the "Hill of the Wasp" as it is usually called. The wings are those identified with the wasp, and they occur also in the symbols for Venus, as "Wasp Star". The sharply pointed abdomen holds the stinger. >> Thank you for clearing that up, Lloyd. It's a fantastic scene overall, to be sure. :-) Looking for *any* bugs at all in the Nuttall illustrations was more frustrating than the "Where's Waldo" books so popular in the 80's. That trial-like shape coming out of the abdomen made me think I was sooooo close to making a match -- are you saying that curvilinear shape is a stinger, or is it a movement-shape? Where can a body catch fireflies in precolumbian art? The mystery continues.... Alison King From cberry at cinenet.net Sun Jan 23 02:02:53 2000 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 19:02:53 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com wrote: > Friends in the Native American Community shared this with me. [snip] > Once there, they encounter an ignorant group of savages who quickly=20 > pronounce them ``Gods,=92=92 and an enticing, voluptuous native woman who=20 > quickly takes on the role of faithful sidekick. Then, of course, there=92s t= > he=20 > fanatical native ``priest=92=92 who lusts for personal power and calls for h= > uman=20 > sacrifice. Portraying native people in this fashion is like passing off Al=20 > Jolson and Amos & Andy as black culture. I'm sorry, but it's hard to characterize the movie as distorted history (any more than most entertainments based on history) based on the above alone. It is fairly clear that the possibility of Cortez being in some sense Quetzalcoatl or at least his avatar or emissary did indeed contribute to the Nahua paralysis in effectively dealing with the Spaniards. A native woman, Malinche, did in fact become Cortez's "sidekick" in short order, and played a crucial role in the conquest. And native priests did in fact practice human sacrifice, and it's relatively clear that at least in late Tenochtitlan mass sacrifice was used for political terror as well as for religious purposes. So, precisely what are your objections? -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom" - William Blake From ECOLING at aol.com Sun Jan 23 03:02:47 2000 From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 20:02:47 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: I have *not* seen this movie, and I am *not* making assumptions about what it really contains. But I am commenting about the response to the original posting. Based on my knowledge of many other misrepresentations of pre-European cultures of the Americas, I would bet that this movie may be much of what the author of the first message under this title says it is. At least the author deserves the respect of considering that he or she may be correct in this. I would bet: 1) That the sacrifice aspects of ancient American cultures are exaggerated and sensationalized in a way Europeans would never want to see their own less savory attributes exaggerated. That would be a form of dishonesty, if so. People get away with that sort of thing, when they do, primarily because it is about "primitive others", not about those currently in power. 2) That the high-culture aspects of ancient American cultures are greatly understated. That would be a form of dishonesty, if so. People get away with that sort of thing, when they do, primarily because it is about "primitive others", not about those currently in power. I am simply amazed at the degree of insensivity to inequality in treatment of "us" (in power) vs. "them" (not in power). Claiming that a particular fact is TRUE is in no sense by itself evidence that a presentation about another is TRUE in any sense of balance or realism. And even some things which are true, our own culture agrees by common consent not to talk about in public. At least when it is a member of "us". But it's OK to do it when it is about the "other", whether someone of another political party or of another culture? A real loss of the most basic decency, something that makes me despair of culture being able to overcome this. (We used to agreee by the voracious appetite of media for scandal at tearing people down in order to boost revenue.) So get real, and stop pretending that the "others" who are not currently in power are treated in any balanced way, with any respect for their virtues. They are not, and we all know it. Let's at least try to do something about it, to at least *reduce* the level of violation, instead of pretending it isn't so. Lloyd Anderson Ecological Linguistics From Yaoxochitl at aol.com Sun Jan 23 05:22:11 2000 From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 22:22:11 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Hey Craig Berry: Obviously your views are based on easy slogans, sentimental evasions, and quick certainties. Any scholar, who knows the distorted details of history, will assert that human sacrifice could have been a creation in the fertile little minds of the Spaniards, especially when these soldiers, whose ethnocentric standards and practices distorted the truth, along with the unthinkable atrocities committed on our people, needed a justification for their exploitative nature. Let's not forget that the only eyewitness accounts of the conquest of Mexico come from 4 spainiards, one of them anonymous, Cortez, who wrote letters to the king of Spain, another spaniard, whose name escapes me, and Bernal Diaz del Castillo, who wrote his memoirs 35 years after the conquest, and Im sure fostered a grossley distorted tale of what my ancestors were like. I suggest you do some research, both external and internal analysis on this before u shoot your mouth off like that. You have much to learn Craig. I suggest you dissect your own ancestral history first before u make absurd presumptions based on the biased, ethnocentric, one sided views coming from a group of people that raped, enslaved, and murdered in the name of Chrisitianity. From cberry at cinenet.net Sun Jan 23 06:44:57 2000 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 23:44:57 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 ECOLING at aol.com wrote: > I have *not* seen this movie, > and I am *not* making assumptions about what it really contains. Yet below you seem to be doing just that. > But I am commenting about the response to the original posting. > > Based on my knowledge of many other misrepresentations > of pre-European cultures of the Americas, > I would bet that this movie may be much of what the author ^^^ Isn't that saying you're making an assumption? > of the first message under this title says it is. > At least the author deserves the respect of considering that > he or she may be correct in this. Considering it is fine. Calling for a boycott without having viewed the movie is absurd prejudice, in the most literal sense of that term. > I would bet: > > 1) That the sacrifice aspects of ancient American cultures are exaggerated > and sensationalized in a way Europeans would never want to see > their own less savory attributes exaggerated. And yet consider how the very same company exaggerated the unsavory side of Christian clerics in 'The Hunchback of Notre Dame', yet as I recall no Europeans called for a boycott on that basis. Storytelling, especially for children, is *about* exaggeration, larger-than-life heroes and villains. > That would be a form of dishonesty, if so. So is 'fiction', of course. But again, we're seeing a call for a *real* boycott based on *hypothetical* aspects of the movie. Rather reminds me of the ruckus way back when over a movie titled "The Prophet", about Mohammed. Moslems were enraged that an image of Mohammed would be seen on screen, violating a restriction of their religion. Some even commited acts of terrorism in protest. It turned out that the movie was shot entirely from Mohammed's point of view, and thus he never appeared on screen. > People get away with that sort of thing, when they do, primarily > because it is about "primitive others", not about those currently in > power. Now come on. Again, see Hunchback. Or Pocohontas, where the evil rapacious Europeans are the key villains in the plot. Or any number of other examples. If anything, we're seeing a cultural turn where the "others" are good guys disproportionately. > 2) That the high-culture aspects of ancient American cultures are greatly > understated. > That would be a form of dishonesty, if so. "If so." Would it not seem wiser to wait and see? > Claiming that a particular fact is TRUE is in no sense by itself evidence > that a presentation about another is TRUE in any sense of balance > or realism. I'm not sure I follow your assertion, here. > So get real, and stop pretending that the "others" > who are not currently in power are treated in any balanced way, > with any respect for their virtues. I don't believe I'm pretending. Perhaps it's because I live in Southern California, but I rarely see other cultures presented in less than glowing terms; in fact, as I mentioned, it frequently seems to be the case that flaws and failures of other societies are ignored while those of American and European society are endlessly reiterated. > They are not, and we all know it. > Let's at least try to do something about it, Doing something would seem best reserved when we have established their is actually an 'it' to be dealt with, wouldn't you think? -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom" - William Blake From cberry at cinenet.net Sun Jan 23 07:10:46 2000 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 00:10:46 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Hey Flowery Warrior, On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote: > Obviously your views are based on easy slogans, sentimental evasions, > and quick certainties. This may be obvious, yet it is not true. I have devoted years and considerable effort to understanding mesoamerican culture, which I find extremely admirable, rich, beautiful, compelling, and complex. Like every civilization (or set of civilizations) in every time, the Nahua had much to be proud of, much else to be ashamed of. They were people, as we are people, neither angels nor demons. > Any scholar, who knows the distorted details of history, will assert > that human sacrifice could have been a creation in the fertile little > minds of the Spaniards, especially when these soldiers, whose > ethnocentric standards and practices distorted the truth, along with the > unthinkable atrocities committed on our people, needed a justification > for their exploitative nature. This is a controversial subject, but I am convinced that their is sufficient evidence to conclude that human sacrifice was pervasive in Nahua society. I suggest we agree to disagree on this one, as historically this argument tends to generate more heat than light. > Let's not forget that the only eyewitness accounts of the conquest of > Mexico come from 4 spainiards, one of them anonymous, Cortez, who wrote > letters to the king of Spain, another spaniard, whose name escapes me, > and Bernal Diaz del Castillo, who wrote his memoirs 35 years after the > conquest, and Im sure fostered a grossley distorted tale of what my > ancestors were like. Add to these the testimony of Sahagun and Duran's informants, of course, and archaeological evidence. I do agree that the primary sources are distorted, but not sufficiently to deny that human sacrifice took place. > I suggest you do some research, both external and internal analysis on > this before u shoot your mouth off like that. We can disagree without resorting to ad hominem attacks, I hope. > You have much to learn Craig. Of course, as do we all. > I suggest you dissect your own ancestral history first before u make > absurd presumptions based on the biased, ethnocentric, one sided views > coming from a group of people that raped, enslaved, and murdered in the > name of Chrisitianity. I have. My ancestors did much that was beautiful, much that was terrible, like yours, like everyone's. -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom" - William Blake From CBodif9907 at aol.com Sun Jan 23 08:56:14 2000 From: CBodif9907 at aol.com (CBodif9907 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 01:56:14 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Forgive my spelling, but I felt compelled to write on this list for the first time. This message is very long, the typing is probably atrocious. I didn't have time to proofread it, but I really wanted to stick up for Craig a bit, though he doesn't really need my help. If you have no interest in this Movie Boycott issue, by all means delete this message. Ok here goes: My experience as a student taught about the history of the Conquest of the Mexica has been an endless litany about European atrocities committed against a very sympathetic and noble culture. Anyone who is concerned that European atrocities are being glossed over in favor of painting an unfair picture of Mexica religious practices has totally missed the last 30 or so years of scholarship on the subject. I can't think of an anthropology student who has escaped the whole "Spaniards destroyed everything, profaned native rituals, burned all the sacred books and annihilated all the great religious centers, and committed any number of horrors in the name of Christianity" speech. It is difficult to imagine a more sinister portrait being painted of the Spanish conquest of Mexico. I don't really deny of it. It may have been the single greatest human engineered catastrophe in history. It was an unrecoverable loss to humanity. But if anyone out there is concerned that the Mexica are coming across as the bad guys and the Spaniards are coming across as the good guys...trust me, you have nothing to worry about. No doubt the European perception of the meaning of human sacrifice in Tenochtitlan was far different from the internal perspective of the Mexica and their priestly class. But there is pretty solid evidence that large scale sacrifices of captives were made in Tenochtitlan as well as many other large ceremonial systems throughout the Triple Alliance Empire. How do you account for the Xompantli (skull racks) if the sacrifice of war captives was not practiced? They don't merely exist as eye witness accounts, Xompantli can bee seen carved as relief images on precolumbian stone structures as well. You must also consider that some accounts of Nahua religious life and customs came directly from the mouths of Nahua people. Nahua legends of Quetzalcoatl (and yes, there are MANy of them) do mention human sacrifice. In fact, in one legend I believe Quetzalcoatl is opposed to it. That doe snot prove that it occurred, but it certainly suggests that it was an element of the culture from time to time. It was my understanding that human sacrifice on the Templo Mayor was conducted to commemorate Huitzilipochtli's great victory over his enemies when he sent them tumbling down the mountain. I donlt understand why anyone would want to classify that as negative Spanish propaganda. I imagine the Mexica of the time would have been shocked by anyone questioning the validity of such a practice. It wasn't meaningless butchery, it had a purpose. It can certainly be debated whether or not this practice was performed on a large scale to intimidate or send a message to foreign dignitaries visiting the Tenochtitlan. But why is it THAT implausible? The Spaniards certainly committed some atrocities in the name of religion, why not gain some extra political advantadge from a legitimate religious practice? If this level of sacrifice wasn't practice, then why were other kingdoms who were coerced into supplying large number of Flowery War captives for sacrifice so willing to send tens of thousands of warriors along with the Spaniards to Tenochtitlan? That certainly suggests to me that not everyone was happy with Mexica rule. Doesn't mean the Mexica were bad folks. That is just the state of affairs everywhere people rule another people, but the degree of hostility certainly lends credence to the claims that lesser kingdoms were very angry with the Mexica's continual demands for sacrificial victims. It is unfair to look at the civilizations of Mexico at the time of the Conquest as a single monolithic political enitity living in perfect harmony. Mesoamerica was linguistically, culturally, and politically diverse, and there were definitely certain groups who did not like each other. The Purepecha (I am still puzzled why they are referred to as Tarascans) were noted for their success in battle against the Mexica, who made entreaties for them to join forces in an attempt to drive out the Spaniards. Closer to Tenochtitlan, first hand accounts recorded from the testimony of survivors of the Conquest in Tlalocan paint an unsympathetic picture of the defenders of Tenochtitlan, while the defenders of Tlalocan come across as absolutely fearless intractable warriors. I am not saying that they were not, but I have doubts that the picture their testimony paints of Mexica defenders in Tenochtitlan lacking resolve are accurate. I am certain they fought ferociously to defend their capital. There is a final comment I want to make about this hostile reaction to Craig's "absurd presumptions" concerning the likelihood that human sacrifice took place. IF it took place for the religious reasons recorded by Spanish (and some Nahua) chroniclers, the Mexica would be pretty pissed that this was doubted and considered as some form of malicious Spaniard slander used to justify genocide. I cannot remember the source off hand (if that makes me a liar, I can't defend that, but for what it's worth I am being honest here) but I remember the tale of a particularly valiant and intelligent enemy war captain from Tlaxcalla who was captured in a Flowery War. The Emperor wanted to keep him as a war captain to use in a campaign against the Purepecha (Tarascans). This captain served in the campaign, but only on the condition that afterward he would be sacrificed. I believe another account describes the rage of a noble father at his sone who was captured over his attempts to avoid being sacrificed. It appears from these and other accounts that accepting sacrifice after capture was rather like committing sepukku or ritual suicide in Japan. It was the honorable thing to accept, even demand your fate. This is why I am really suprised by the reaction to Craig's comments. It's not like Craig said, "It is an absolute fact that the Mexica murdered people by the thousands." I can't think of a SINGLE book written on the subject that makes that sort of biased judgment about the meaning of sacrifice in Mesoamerica. Sure, lots of primary resources are filled with religious and cultural bias, but the bias is usually transparant and easy to spot. At least I think so, perhaps I am mistaken. I think most of the polemics regarding Nahua religious practices are formulaic as hell. Plain old smear tactics. But the volume and consistency of the descriptions of the practice of human sacrifice in Tenochtitlan is compelling. And I think in most cases the description of the practice is very matter of fact. Very often the priests were meticulous in recording the meaning and function of what they labelled "heathen" religious practices so they would know who and what they were up against. When a modern reader goes through these accounts of sacrifice it comes across as a practice of great importance and meaning...NOT as large scale murder. Again, it can be debated whether some political opportunists capitalized on these sacrificial events and used them to intimidate foreign dignitaries......but it certainly wouldn't be the FIRST time religion and poltics have mingled, one has only to look to the role of the Roman Church in politics for at least 700 years in Europe. I think it is a reasonable assumption that if I were a Zapotec or Mixtec ambassador and I saw 1000 warriors tumbling down the Templo Mayor, I would have quaked with fear at the might of the Empire Huitizilipochtli helped build, and I would have been a more tractable subject than if I had stayed in a fortified mountain city and never set foot in the Mexica capital. It is pure conjecture, but reasonable. If it is offensive I apologize, you certainly don't have to agree. A final point I want to make in Craig's defense--what is wrong with the explanation that some Nahuas may have believed the Spaniards were supernatural. They were pale with heavy facial hair, they wore metal armor and rode animals the indigenous people had never seen. The ships were certainly unlike anything in the Americas. I am not saying they were better at all, but certainly unlike anything ANYONE on the mainland at that time had ever seen. The remarkable coincidence of Cortez arrival in the year 1 Reed must have also had a spiritual impact on the people. If they were a spiritual and religious people whose lives were guided in many ways by ritual cycles, I would be shocked if the people did NOT harbor at least a suspicion or nagging fear that Cortez might be Quetzalcoatl. Cortez was an opportunist, I am sure he took advantadge of this misinterpretation and amplified the suspicions of his Godly origin. As rumor made its way to the capital, it seems perfectly sensible that the Emperor, with his religious role and ties to the Toltecs through religious history, WOULD think to himself...."Oh man....is this for real?" The stakes could not have been higher if he judged Cortez a man when he was not. I am sure like all societies, there were skeptics right from the beginning who knew the Spaniards were just very unusual men, however mysterious their origins. I don't see any reason to take insult at the suggestion that many of the Nahuas thought or feared Cortez might be a god. Religious hysteria is commonplace throughout the history of Europe. With such calendrical and religious factors coinciding as they did with the arrival and appearance of Cortez, and Cortez incentive to perpetuate this misunderstanding to aid him in conquering a population so vast it boggled the imagination, why WOULDN'T this belief have been held by a portion of the population? If you were a Mexica who never saw Cortez, but only heard rumors of his appearance and his success in battle, wouldnt you get a little worried? Come on, this isn't some unfair slam on the Mexica, if people in America can buy into that guy who led Heaven's Gate, why couldn't some of the nahua population have believed in the divine origin of Cortez and his men, at least at first? That's far more reasonable than offing yourself for "Do" in my opinion. I think it's too the credit of the people that fought him so valiantly later, despite the diseases ravaging the population and the advantage of powder weapons and horse, that they might have harbored some belief he was a god and battled against him anyway. Well, this went on too long, but I think the criticism leveled at Craig was unfair to him, and to be perfectly honest unfair to Mesoamerican history. Those people fought and died in the millions for their original beliefs. To throw out the sacrfice of war captives as religious propaganda is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Not to mention it ignores millenia of religious motifs, and a few original documents which still survive. I think it is similarly unfair to label the belief that some Nahua peoples believed Cortez and his men were gods or divine as "biased assumption." There is a perfect precident set in the encounter of Captain Cook with the people of Hawai. He arrived at the beginning of a religious festival which honored the arrival of the divine founder of the hawaiian islands. He was at first thought to be this god and greeted with excitement and honor. When he stayed beyond the ceremonial time at which the god Lono was supposed to depart, the Hawaiian people (no doubt some already suspicious) killed him. Spiritual belief can powerfully shape the perception of reality, and when something incredible occurs that has some sort of religious precedent, it is easy for the line between reality and the spiritual to blur. Easier for some than others. Some I think are natural born skeptics. No doubt many of the Mesoamerican peoples were skeptical from the get go. But I think it is selling short one of the richest spiritual cultures in history to dismiss such a misunderstanding as a biased attempt to justify European conquest. I am sure some very bad people have taken this event and run with it, using it to justify all sorts of atrocities, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. And as far as this movie goes, all Craig was saying is, just because a member of a particular group in a film has cultural characteristics exagerrated to become a bad guy, doesn't mean the film is racist. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, let's at least KNOW what we are picketing. If you just draw up the picket signs and stand out front without even knowing what you are really protesting, it does more harm than good. People who might be won over to your cause begin to doubt your sincerity. Be a good example for your cause, see the movie, then if it ticks you off, picket all you want. Just find out first before using blanket assumptions to justify a protest sight unseen. It's too important for this cause to be taken seriously to jump the gun. Tell folks to be on the lookout maybe, but just because something has happenned before doesn't mean it wil be the same every time. That same sort of stereotyping is what helped justify genocide in this hemisphere for hundreds of years. Well after this long rant I am sure no one ever wants to hear from me again. Just had to get that off my chest. If I am offended by the film I will be sure to spread the word about it. But I will find out some specifics first. If you made it this far, thanks! Case Bodiford From malinal at evhr.net Sun Jan 23 09:56:09 2000 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 02:56:09 -0700 Subject: Aztec Language Message-ID: The common Aztec name for serpent is "coatl". Bernardino de Sahagn in his chapter about serpents describes any of them. "Teuctlacozauhqui", Crotalus sp. "Iztac coatl", Crotalus sp. "Tlehuah coatl", Crotalus sp. "Chiyahuitl" or "Chiyauhcoatl", Crotalus triseriatus triseriatus. "Zolcoatl", Trymorphodon biscutatus or Agkistrodon bilineatus. "Mazacoatl", 1. Crotalus cerastes or other Crotalus sp. 2. Constrictor constrictor mexicana. "Tetzauhcoatl", Diadolphis regalis. "Tlapapalcoatl", Lampropeltis sp. "Chimalcoatl", Crotalus sp. "Citlalcoatl", Drymobius margaritiferus. "Metlapilcoatl", Botrops numifera (or Dermophis mexicanus). "Ahueyactli", Crotalus durissus, durissus. "Palancacoatl", Botrops atrox. "Ehca coatl", Masticophis taeniatus taeniatus. "Cincoatl", Pituophis deppei. And others which are unidentified. I don't know the english names of those serpents. The identification is given by Charles E.Dibble and Arthur J.O. Anderson in their translation of the 'General History of the Things of New Spain and is based on Martin del Campo 'Essayo', Anales del Instituto de Biologia, IX,3-4. The word "coatl" is also used in aztec language to form names of divinities (the most famous is "Quetzalcoatl") and 'calendrical' names such as "Chicome Coatl", an important female maize divinity. Alexis Wimmer. From Yaoxochitl at aol.com Sun Jan 23 11:29:58 2000 From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 04:29:58 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Hey Case Bodiford, Blah blah blah blah blah. From mexicapride at earthlink.net Sun Jan 23 17:13:39 2000 From: mexicapride at earthlink.net (Tekpatltzin) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:13:39 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Tiahui, As one who has seen the trailers to the Road to El Dorado (with my children) and as a person of Mexika-Chichimeka descent, here is my reasoning on why I will boycott this "animated" distortion of history. I read the very scholarly and intelligent insights of those that regularly post to this list server. I see how many are learning the nahuatl language (the many versions of it), the nahuatl culture, the history , etc. No doubt about it, very enlightening stuff. But I live and work in a mostly Mexican area of Chicago and see how "our" people are trying to earn a living and raise their families without making much of a fanfare abut it. In other words they just want a chance at a decent life without being told that we are "illegal" aliens in a land that once had no "linear" borders. Much of the wisdom shared here will never make it to these millions of Mexicanos or for that matter to the general public at large. But these Mexicanos are the ones that will continue to suffer from the anti-immigration hysteria that has been stirred up by the elected officials of this country, on both sides of the political spectrum. All they want (for the most part) is a change at a modest wage. But the media highlights the negative imagery, "gangs" on the rise, drug wars, rise in the Mexican population, taking jobs away from young Americans (this one has to be laughed at), etc. I can't stand here and tell you that "sacrifice" was not a practice in ancient Anahuac. I was not there. And there are arguments on both sides. You bring your facts, I'll bring my facts and let's go at it. I can tell you that I am tired of always being reminded of this when I give talks. I wish that maybe sometimes we could also talk about the Spanish and Catholic inquisition and the millions that they killed in the name of their GOD. But that is not what "sells" and if you are familiar with the people of Mexico today they are a huge Catholic majority and do not want to hear anything negative about the Catholic Church anyway. They're too busy trying to survive today in Mexico. But many are starting to question so there is some hope. Being one that works with youth and inmates I can tell you that movies like this one that is being offered by Mr. Spielberg's Dreamworks factory will make it's money but will provide nothing in the way of a educational opportunity. Disney is also very good at distorting a historical chapter and then making a love story or a "feel good" movie for the movie viewers to forget any pain associated with history thus avoiding any real "healing" on a collective basis, that is for all of us to heal. Instead the kids will laugh and parents will buy little plastic figures and treat it all as a circus event. This is proving to be detrimental to our children and the schools today (as a whole) are no better at getting to the "healing" that has to take place in order for all of us to move forward. So now Mexicanos in the U.S that still hold dear to our hearts the contributions that our ancestors offered will now have to suffer and watch another version of the quest for GOLD. We'll boycott it, but Mr. Speilberg will make his money. We have to prepare for another score of questions about sacrifice and we'll answer them as before. There has to come a time when a movie is offered that properly deals with the sad history of the formation of Mexico and the U.S. But this would hurt because it was not pretty, so in comes Disney and Dreamworks to ensure that we further delay any real "discussion" of what really happened. It hurts all of us because we know better. I am boycotting this movie because my children already heard the laughter in the thither (during the trailer)when the two "bumbling" spanish characters made their way into the jungle to begin the quest while meeting a sexy native woman who is there to assist them. It is wrong to laugh about this and my children even at their age knew this. It is wrong to offer a movie in this fashion. Would Mr. Speilberg offer an amusing cartoon about the Holocaust of his people. Maybe with a young Jewish girl and a young Nazi guard falling in love and some wacky characters offering their support only to see them perish in the gas chamber. It has gotten that ridiculous. It is true. No one will know what really happened in the past. We can only guess ( with a spiritual or scientific method) and there are many different views, all of whom have passionate supporters. I am just tired of always having to hear about the "negativity" of our ancestors in the media. But that is the "American" way. Tell a lie long enough and it will become truth. These are my opinions... Tlazohkamati, Tekpatltzin Kalpulli Yetlanezi-Tolteka 13 Aurora-Chicago-Teotihuakan From cberry at cinenet.net Sun Jan 23 17:16:57 2000 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:16:57 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Jan 2000 Yaoxochitl at aol.com wrote: > Hey Case Bodiford, > Blah blah blah blah blah. You know, Yaoxochitl, your ancestors valued eloquence in public speaking very highly. Perhaps this would be one aspect of their culture you might consider emulating... -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom" - William Blake From dfrye at umich.edu Sun Jan 23 17:31:10 2000 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:31:10 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: What is wrong with the movie's "history"? Not having seen it (obviously), I can only go by the description we have been given, but it seems that the movie makers have taken the most easily stereotyped vignettes from the Cortez enterprise and applied them to an entirely fictional "El Dorado" quest in a way that inevitably makes for bad history. > It is fairly clear that the possibility of Cortez being in some sense > Quetzalcoatl or at least his avatar or emissary did indeed contribute > to the Nahua paralysis in effectively dealing with the Spaniards. 1. This is admittedly the common version given in most accounts of the conquest, but it is based on astonishingly thin evidence. The entire "Cortes-Quetzalcoatl" scenario appears only in the later accounts. While it is fairly clear that Nahuas applied the term "teotl" to the Spanish early on, it is also clear that the Spanish thought they were being called "gods" and that they relished the idea, despite the fact that the Nahuas never revered them as gods. To pretend that identifying "whites" as gods is a generic "native" reaction to "superior strangers" is arguably racist. > A native woman, Malinche, did in fact become Cortez's "sidekick" in > short order, and played a crucial role in the conquest. 2. But certainly not a sidekick in the Hollywood sense, nor was she a voluptuous seductress, and to turn her into that (rather than the embattled, enslaved, but highly intelligent survivor -- and probably a teenager -- that she was) is Hollywoodization of history at its worst. > Native priests did in fact practice human sacrifice, and it's relatively > clear that at least in late Tenochtitlan mass sacrifice was used for > political terror as well as for religious purposes. 3. So what does the absolutely exceptional case of late Tenochtitlan have to do with any mythical El Dorado? Why take the most objectional aspect of one society and make it emblematic of "Native" religion elsewhere, particularly if (as you recognize yourself) the use of sacrifice in late Tenochtitlan was more political than religious? (Especially if the film does not at the same time depict the abandon with which Europeans killed and raped in the course of their conquests.) My apologies to all for prolonging this discussion. I'll bow out now. David Frye From ECOLING at aol.com Sun Jan 23 18:31:04 2000 From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:31:04 -0700 Subject: Stereotyping in Anthro and Movies Message-ID: My objection was to the overly quick dismissal of someone who was criticising a movie. C. Berry clearly did not understand my posting. Quote below, and other evidences that he did not understand the explicit "if" I deliberately put in there, and my statement that the author of the original post deserved better consideration. The only other thing I think I could have done was to say explicitly that yes, I think there was some human sacrifice (and that because of the difficulties of evidence and biases, I take no position on it beyond that). Look at the following: >> Claiming that a particular fact is TRUE is in no sense by itself evidence >> that a presentation about another is TRUE in any sense of balance >> or realism. > >I'm not sure I follow your assertion, here. I think the statement speaks for itself. But let me spell it out one more step. Saying that a people did (on some occasions) perform human sacrifice is *not* by itself evidence that a presentation about those people is TRUE in any sense of balance or realism. Perfectly obvious point. By the way, I am (I always have to point out in these discussions) no politically correct person. I hate political correctness, and I am not trying to curry favor with anyone. Just act as an antidote when I think that may be helpful. I object *also* to the stereotyped portrayal of Spaniards as villains in the conquest, though there certainly were villains. The problem is the stereotyping. Notice that when portrayed by north Europeans in such ways, the Spanish (or Hispanics) are "others" too. Awfully easy to do. C. Berry correctly points to this. Nor am I in favor of stereotyped criticism of one's own background culture, for example those of European ancestry dumping condemnation on northern Europeans who came to North America. The point that movies for children exaggerate heros and villains is no defense, in my view. Of course they do. *BUT THEY DO NOT HAVE TO DO IT BY DEFINING RACIAL OR CULTURAL STEREOTYPES* THAT is the problem. Movies for children can teach evils in that way, by teaching that character and race or culture are the same thing. By teaching that others are (yech!) primitive. Or horrible. Etc. Etc. The "others" need not even be humans. JAWS was dishonest, and a disservice to humanity. The Post Office advertising stamps with insects "Get them before they get you" is a disservice to humanity, by further isolating them from nature. Cheap shots, in all cases, those stereotyped have no recourse. The real damage is to the human receivers of such messages. RACIAL AND CULTURAL STEREOTYPES should never be taught. By definition of the word "stereotype", in normal use. (Cultures can have interests in conflict, but that is quite another matter.) I am a strong believer that the trivialized and commonplace violence, racial antagonism, and other negatives in movies and TV *DO* have a direct causal linkage to violence in real life. Movies and TV are the only way many children learn about much of life. And adults too, for that matter, more and more I fear. Especially where it concerns other cultures, this is dangerous. Our society, like many others, has singularly bad taste in what it exposes its children to. And what I am talking about is enormously more important than what people sometimes spend all of their time on, supposed "decency". Violence and cultural antagonisms are much more indecent than those other things. So, therefore, I thought the quick dismissal of the person suggesting a boycott of a movie was highly inappropriate (even if that person may be, in the view of most of us, wrong about facts, in wanting to believe that there was no human sacrifice). Based on the track record of movies in most cultures, including at least recently especially ours that I know of, though I suspect recently more everwhere in the globe, I would bet, as I stated, that there is some grounds to support the critic of the movie, based merely on common sense about the stereotyping typical of movies. And therefore we should not dismiss the criticism so fast. I was explicit that I had not seen the movie, and also by putting "if" in at least two places, for the ethical reason that I did not want to appear to be claiming knowledge I did not have. C. Berry's response accusing me of making assumptions was both factually wrong and a cheap shot. I did not make assumptions of fact about this particular movie, and said so explicitly. I only bet that it was not so very unlike other movies made in our culture, in certain respects. Lloyd Anderson Ecological Linguistics From cberry at cinenet.net Sun Jan 23 18:45:28 2000 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:45:28 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Tekpatltzin et al, First, thank you for your considered and careful treatment of this issue. There is obviously much to be said on many sides, here. > I read the very scholarly and intelligent insights of those that > regularly post to this list server. I see how many are learning the > nahuatl language (the many versions of it), the nahuatl culture, the > history , etc. No doubt about it, very enlightening stuff. But I live > and work in a mostly Mexican area of Chicago and see how "our" people > are trying to earn a living and raise their families without making much > of a fanfare abut it. Which is of course true of just about everyone, everywhere, of all races. All Europeans are not living in mansions and ordering large staffs around, any more than all Mexicans are picking lettuce outside Fresno. We're all people, some rich, some poor, some fascinated with history, some ignorant of it, all just trying to get by. > In other words they just want a chance at a decent > life without being told that we are "illegal" aliens in a land that once > had no "linear" borders. Every country in every time has as a matter of course controlled immigration. Even the Mexica, on arrival in the Valley of Mexico, had to find 'sponsors' among the already resident Nahua societies, and lived marginally for a long time as they were assimilated. Also note that there are more legal residents of the US who are of Mexican decent than illegals of the same ancestry. Nobody (sane) wants to eject all Mexicans, or harass them in any way. Many rational people, including many of Mexican ancestry, see the need to control the rate and nature of immigration simply to avoid overwhelming various societal support systems. In other words, immigrant status is *very* different from illegal immigrant status, and focussing on the latter distorts the situation and deals with a minority of the relevant population. > I can't stand here and tell you that "sacrifice" was not a practice in > ancient Anahuac. I was not there. And there are arguments on both sides. > You bring your facts, I'll bring my facts and let's go at it. Of course. Like anything in the past, there is no certainty, only probabilities associated with various types of testimony and other evidence. > I can tell you that I am tired of always being reminded of this when I > give talks. I wish that maybe sometimes we could also talk about the > Spanish and Catholic inquisition and the millions that they killed in > the name of their GOD. As I mentioned, we see plenty of this, too. Over and over. If anything, the beautiful parts of European history are being lost in obsession over its sins of conquest and oppression. > But that is not what "sells" and if you are familiar with the people of > Mexico today they are a huge Catholic majority and do not want to hear > anything negative about the Catholic Church anyway. "Not wanting to hear" is very *very* different from "not having the information available," of course. > Being one that works with youth and inmates I can tell you that movies > like this one that is being offered by Mr. Spielberg's Dreamworks > factory will make it's money but will provide nothing in the way of a > educational opportunity. How do you know this, not having seen the entire movie? > Disney is also very good at distorting a historical chapter and then > making a love story or a "feel good" movie for the movie viewers to > forget any pain associated with history thus avoiding any real "healing" > on a collective basis, that is for all of us to heal. Like the grasping, hateful, lust-inspired pure evil of the priest in Hunchback, a Frenchman (and hence part of my own ancestral civilization)? Yes, this is definitely how I want to think of *my* people. > Instead the kids will laugh and parents will buy little plastic > figures and treat it all as a circus event. Because it is. Punch and Judy shows were the degenerate grandchildren of morality plays about Pontius and Judas. They had no redeeming social value and distorted history beyond recognition. They also were wildly popular and made people laugh. There's no crime in this. > This is proving to be detrimental to our children and the schools today > (as a whole) are no better at getting to the "healing" that has to take > place in order for all of us to move forward. Must everything with a historical basis, however remote, be utterly accurate in every detail? Are we to have no 'Camelot' because there was probably no historical Arthur, and if there was, he lived during a period of rude near-barbarism, not the Age of Chivalry? Are we to have no 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' because Hitler cannot be shown to have authorized a search for the Ark? We must distinguish history from fiction, and understand that fiction is given poetic license to distort, exaggerate, and bend the truth for artistic reasons. > So now Mexicanos in the U.S that still hold dear to our hearts the > contributions that our ancestors offered will now have to suffer and > watch another version of the quest for GOLD. The Spaniards were looking for gold; that's historical. And they didn't have a trademark on greed and acquisitiveness, either; look at how far (in distance and effort) the Nahua were willing to go for e.g. quetzal plumes. "Going to the far place to get the treasure" is one of the archetypal stories, from Jason and the Argonauts on down. > We'll boycott it, but Mr. Speilberg will make his money. We have to > prepare for another score of questions about sacrifice and we'll answer > them as before. Surely a movie that makes people want to ask questions is a good thing? > There has to come a time when a movie is offered that properly deals > with the sad history of the formation of Mexico and the U.S. But this > would hurt because it was not pretty, so in comes Disney and Dreamworks > to ensure that we further delay any real "discussion" of what really > happened. It hurts all of us because we know better. I would like to see that movie. But again, realize that aspects of this are being dealt with, even in children's films. Look at 'Pocohontas', with the noble natives meeting rapacious gold-hungry evil Europeans. I felt like picketing *that* one. :) > I am boycotting this movie because my children already heard the > laughter in the thither (during the trailer)when the two "bumbling" > spanish characters made their way into the jungle to begin the quest > while meeting a sexy native woman who is there to assist them. What was the problem with this laughter? The bumbling hero is a staple in every kid's film. The friendly native woman is a matter of prominent historical record twice (Pocohontas, Malinche) and hence fair game for storytelling. > It is wrong to laugh about this and my children even at their age knew > this. It is history that happened. Perhaps through the laughter some curiosity will be triggered. That has certainly happened with other Disney films; I personally know several under-10 children who have a basic idea of ancient Greek mythology thanks to 'Hercules', for example. > It is wrong to offer a movie in this fashion. Would Mr. Speilberg offer > an amusing cartoon about the Holocaust of his people. Maybe with a young > Jewish girl and a young Nazi guard falling in love and some wacky > characters offering their support only to see them perish in the gas > chamber. It has gotten that ridiculous. Well, do note that in a paroxysm of astonishingly bad taste, the US European-dominant culture of the 1960s, just two decades after the Holocaust, did air 'Hogan's Heroes' -- and it was extremely popular, and is still in syndication. Talk about historical portrayals that make you cringe! And this is about Europeans murdering Europeans en masse, with a laugh track. > It is true. No one will know what really happened in the past. It is the primary function of entertainment to entertain. Historical accuracy is secondary. If art is chained to strict veracity, we arrive at grim Soviet-style 'social realism' and art dies. Teaching history is a separate function, and cannot be force-fed to an unwilling audience. > We can only guess ( with a spiritual or scientific method) and there are > many different views, all of whom have passionate supporters. I am just > tired of always having to hear about the "negativity" of our ancestors > in the media. But that is the "American" way. Tell a lie long enough > and it will become truth. Again, maybe California is different. But the last media presentation I can recall seeing with respect to Nahua heritage was a brief news item concerning a group of Mexica dancers visiting LA from Mexico city, presented as beautiful, historically rich, and worthy of attention by all Angelenos. (It was fun hearing the reporter trying to pronounce 'Xochitl', by the way. :) Almost all the others are like this, too. About a month ago I saw a brilliantly done documentary on Teotihuacan on the Discovery Channel, which discussed human sacrifice in a balanced way, and took care to trace cultural continuity from T. through the Nahua culture and into modern Mexico. I guess I'd be interested in seeing where all this negativity about Nahua history is hiding; I don't seem to run across any. -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom" - William Blake From cberry at cinenet.net Sun Jan 23 18:48:20 2000 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:48:20 -0700 Subject: Stereotyping in Anthro and Movies Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Jan 2000 ECOLING at aol.com wrote: > My objection was to the overly quick dismissal > of someone who was criticising a movie. Probably about time to wind this down; we all seem to have presented our positions, and we could go around endlessly on this. Do note, however, that I was dismissing someone's criticism of a movie *they had not seen*. Surely criticizing a movie not yet seen has to rank high on the absurdity scale. And if you wish to offer criticism on the basis of "well, most movies on this subject are bad, so this one probably is too" -- well, then, my friend, you are commiting prejudice and bigotry, just as surely as anyone else who applies general patterns to specific individuals without further evidence. -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom" - William Blake From CBodif9907 at aol.com Sun Jan 23 19:02:41 2000 From: CBodif9907 at aol.com (CBodif9907 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 12:02:41 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Just because I was one of the people that helped prolong this discussion, I'll respond to this quckly to clear up some misunderstandings about my position at least. << What is wrong with the movie's "history"? Not having seen it (obviously), I can only go by the description we have been given, but it seems that the movie makers have taken the most easily stereotyped vignettes from the Cortez enterprise and applied them to an entirely fictional "El Dorado" quest in a way that inevitably makes for bad history.>> Never argued with that, just thought people should possibly see at least a trailer or an ad or a clip or a piece of the script or SOMETHING before instituting a boycott. It would not suprise me one bit if cultural stereotypes are exagerrated in an insulting or at least misleading way. If that is the case, by all means boycott away! But what is the problem with actually being personally informed on the matter before instantly falling in line with the boycotters? It's important for a protest against negative stereotypes to be taken seriously. Why boycott unless there is some desire to have your cause acknowledged to make a difference? If you want to make a difference, it helps if you show everyone that you have done your homework first. The protesters objecting to the use of the seminole mascot in Tallahasse are a perfect example. There was one native american gentleman who really affected alot of people because he had a reasoned argument that made alot of sense. The dumb white kids (I'm white btw) who showed up, at least the ones I spoke to, really had nothing to offer, they just saw a protest and hopped in line. But the native american gentleman I spoke with really won me over, not withstanding the official position of the Seminole Tribe of Florida that they do not object to the use of their name by the college. That may be for financial reasons and not representative of the majority of the tribal members. >>1. This is admittedly the common version given in most accounts of the conquest, but it is based on astonishingly thin evidence. The entire "Cortes-Quetzalcoatl" scenario appears only in the later accounts. While it is fairly clear that Nahuas applied the term "teotl" to the Spanish early on, it is also clear that the Spanish thought they were being called "gods" and that they relished the idea, despite the fact that the Nahuas never revered them as gods. To pretend that identifying "whites" as gods is a generic "native" reaction to "superior strangers" is arguably racist.>> I do not think anyone said that this was a generic reaction. I certainly didn't. That didn't occur in the Andes, and it didn't occur anywhere on the eastern seaboard of North America that I am aware. The Apalache in particular were exceptionally hostile to the Spanish, probably because they were on notice that they were unsavory characters who would carry them off into slavery given the chance. All I think Craig was indicating was that there were a remarkable number of religious coincidences operating to Cortez advantage. I know I certainly didn't mean to imply that the Spanish were "worshipped." All I meant indicate was that when confronted by men with firearms riding horses for the first time, given the significance of the year of there arrival, that ALONE would have been reason for some of the Nahua people to have looked for some divine explanation for the appearance of these strange and dangerous people. That is a universal human reaction. The outlandish is usually explained by labeling it in some way supernatural. And all that Cortez needed to perpetuate for his advantage was the apprehension that he might Quetzalcoatl. Or at least that he might have some divine powers. I absolutely did NOT mean that it is a universal reaction to worship white people as Gods. That certainly is a racist stereotype, and I do not htink that was implied by either of our statements. My position was simply that when powerful religious factors coincide with the appearance of of people of an unknown racial type in strange vessels from across the sea, there may be some apprehension at least that their technological prowess, strange dress, and strange animals may indicate soome divine or supernatural origin. Or at the very least, everyone might err on the side of caution just incase the weird new people have supernatural powers. In every account I have read of Moctezuma's reaction to the arrival of Cortez, I have imagined myself having the same reaction to Cortez. Basically "These guys are weird and tough, and just in case this IS Quetzalcoatl, I better be nice." I do not see how that can be equated with implying that all native people thought whites were Gods. That is unfair. The native americans who encountered the pilgrim settlers of New England thought they were weird looking, piteous, clueless people who were unable to care for themselves. >>2. But certainly not a sidekick in the Hollywood sense, nor was she a voluptuous seductress, and to turn her into that (rather than the embattled, enslaved, but highly intelligent survivor -- and probably a teenager -- that she was) is Hollywoodization of history at its worst. I agree, that is reprehensible. This woman may have had an amazing life, and her youth and coercion may explain her cooperation with Cortez. It was probably a matter of survival. political terror as well as for religious purposes. >> 3. So what does the absolutely exceptional case of late Tenochtitlan have to do with any mythical El Dorado? Why take the most objectional aspect of one society and make it emblematic of "Native" religion elsewhere, particularly if (as you recognize yourself) the use of sacrifice in late Tenochtitlan was more political than religious? (Especially if the film does not at the same time depict the abandon with which Europeans killed and raped in the course of their conquests.)>> Typical Disney, they are looking for something dramatic, it's that simple. And I think it probably ought to be boycotted if all that is being said about the film is true. >>My apologies to all for prolonging this discussion. I'll bow out now. David Frye >> I also apologize for prolonging this, particularly because this message was directed at Craig. I wanted to clear up any misperceptions people might have about my position, and I thought the comment about "natives thinking whites were gods" was unfair, neither of us said or would support such a position. History would not allow such a claim to stand. North American American settlement and exploration by Europeans is a history of conflict, not a history of worship. In every instance I can think of besides the conquest of the Mexica Empire, native people of the Americas have been quite willing to fight it out with European interlopers, or to trade with them out of compassion for their helplessness. I was speaking only to one remarkable chain of events in Mesoamerica, it was not a blanket statement or anything pertaining to race. Case Bodiford From XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com Sun Jan 23 21:22:01 2000 From: XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com (XocoyoCopitzin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 14:22:01 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: "Art is a lie that makes us realize the truth." -- Pablo Picasso I plan on seeing this film and will watch it with the same skepticism I have watched other historically interpretive films such as "The Last Temptation of Christ" or "The Messenger." Being an art teacher and armchair film critic, I'll have ample opportunity to speak with the children in my life about race and representation in popular culture, not to mention their responsibility, as art-makers, to make people think with art. That's right. Good art makes people think. Spending my cash on a film that may or may not cast entire races and practices in stereotypical light does not equate with supporting the moral principles of the film or its makers. Boycotts are ineffective because they avoid the issues rather then meet them head-on. If we are to be warriors of knowledge we need to know what books and films (and websites!) our children are attracted to. This includes even really bad or misleading material. I look forward to seeing El Dorado precisely so I can post movie reviews to my non-Nahua related message forums, and make it clear were steroetpyes and misconceptions persist (if any at all). This film is not an obstacle. It is an opportunity with far-reaching potential. Anyone who wishes for a little more infomation before deciding whether to see this film may view the supporting website at http://www.roadtoeldorado.com or view the short movie trailer at http://www.enjoytheshow.com/trailerpark/0815yy.html Alison King From maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Sun Jan 23 22:11:01 2000 From: maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 15:11:01 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Most people refer to the idea that Cortes was mistaken for Quetzalcoatl as a real life example of Native Americans deifying white men. However, I challenge anybody to find a reference to Cortes as Quetzalcoatl that predates the 18th century.B by which time, the romanticization of the invasion as spiritual conquest was in full effect. For an alternative interpretation and understanding of Quetzalcoatl not as a white bearded man or anthropomorphic god, but rather as the barbed visage of the sun see: Paredez, Domingo Martinez. 1967 Un Ccontinente y Una Cultura. Mexico: Editorial Orion. On Sat, 22 Jan 2000, Craig Berry wrote: > On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com wrote: > > > Friends in the Native American Community shared this with me. > [snip] > > Once there, they encounter an ignorant group of savages who quickly=20 > > pronounce them ``Gods,=92=92 and an enticing, voluptuous native woman who=20 > > quickly takes on the role of faithful sidekick. Then, of course, there=92s t= > > he=20 > > fanatical native ``priest=92=92 who lusts for personal power and calls for h= > > uman=20 > > sacrifice. Portraying native people in this fashion is like passing off Al=20 > > Jolson and Amos & Andy as black culture. > > I'm sorry, but it's hard to characterize the movie as distorted history > (any more than most entertainments based on history) based on the above > alone. It is fairly clear that the possibility of Cortez being in some > sense Quetzalcoatl or at least his avatar or emissary did indeed > contribute to the Nahua paralysis in effectively dealing with the > Spaniards. A native woman, Malinche, did in fact become Cortez's > "sidekick" in short order, and played a crucial role in the conquest. And > native priests did in fact practice human sacrifice, and it's relatively > clear that at least in late Tenochtitlan mass sacrifice was used for > political terror as well as for religious purposes. > > So, precisely what are your objections? > > -- > | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net > --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html > | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace > of Wisdom" - William Blake > > From maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Sun Jan 23 22:25:47 2000 From: maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 15:25:47 -0700 Subject: Stereotyping in Anthro and Movies Message-ID: Thanks for taking control big chief On Sun, 23 Jan 2000, Craig Berry wrote: > On Sun, 23 Jan 2000 ECOLING at aol.com wrote: > > > My objection was to the overly quick dismissal > > of someone who was criticising a movie. > > Probably about time to wind this down; we all seem to have presented our > positions, and we could go around endlessly on this. > > Do note, however, that I was dismissing someone's criticism of a movie > *they had not seen*. Surely criticizing a movie not yet seen has to rank > high on the absurdity scale. > > And if you wish to offer criticism on the basis of "well, most movies on > this subject are bad, so this one probably is too" -- well, then, my > friend, you are commiting prejudice and bigotry, just as surely as anyone > else who applies general patterns to specific individuals without further > evidence. > > -- > | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net > --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html > | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace > of Wisdom" - William Blake > > From Richard.Haly at colorado.edu Mon Jan 24 06:40:34 2000 From: Richard.Haly at colorado.edu (Richard Haly) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:40:34 -0700 Subject: Spanish "Gods" Message-ID: > The entire > "Cortes-Quetzalcoatl" scenario appears only in the later accounts. While > it is fairly clear that Nahuas applied the term "teotl" to the Spanish > early on, it is also clear that the Spanish thought they were being called > "gods" and that they relished the idea, despite the fact that the Nahuas > never revered them as gods. To pretend that identifying "whites" as gods > is a generic "native" reaction to "superior strangers" is arguably racist.>> The problem with thinking that Nahuas considered Spaniards to be gods resides not in Nahua "naivete" nor in Spanish presumption but in our own unexamined assumptions of what gods are. If we go back to what Nahuas called Spaniards we find teotl and we also find that they spoke of their own rulers using the same term. The issue is not one of deifying Spaniards but of humanizing "gods." What is teotl? Recall that commoners could not look directly at Moteuczomah just as they could not look directly at the sun. Too much tonalli (radiance). They would be blinded. It is lots more productive to think of both Nahua rulers and Spaniards as these sort of man-gods. What I don't understand are all these stereotypical interpretations on either side. Perhaps it's time to again trot out a quote that appears every so often here: Walt Kelley (creator of Pogo): "We have met the enemy and he is us." Richard Haly From Amapohuani at aol.com Mon Jan 24 07:41:15 2000 From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 00:41:15 -0700 Subject: Need Nahuatl Sources Message-ID: Listeros: A sober treatment of "teotl" as applied to Spaniards can be found in James Lockhart's WE PEOPLE HERE (1993), pp. 19-20. In discussions like these specifics are needed. This is especially true if we are interested in what Nahuas of particular communities or areas (e.g., Valley of Mexico) actually said/wrote rather than what someone else (then or now) says they said/wrote. Perhaps someone on the list has the specific occurrences in texts like the FLORENTINE CODEX and can provide them. Then we can at least try to evaluate the original categories and terminology in Nahuatl rather than later translations/interpretations/misinterpretations. I find this particular thread potentially interesting. However it cannot be much more than a discussion of attitudes (with consequent flaming) if specifics are not provided. Ye ixquich. Barry D. Sell From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com Mon Jan 24 08:30:20 2000 From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 01:30:20 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Apology Message-ID: Respectful Greetings All My Brothers and Sisters, I want to thank all of my brothers and sisters who commented on the=20 stereotyping issue. As a human who cares about people, I only hoped to make=20 all of you fellow students of Native American language and culture aware of= =20 the film with its =93possible=94 problems. The message that was sent to me=20 through the Native American Network spoke to my heart. I made no judgement=20 about the content. I figured that you would do that for yourselves. I=20 forwarded the message exactly as it came to me. It is not my way to be combative, and I never expected that some of you,= =20 my elders, would react this way. I apologize for causing any hurt. I shared=20 the message only so that you might be ready to help out after the film came=20 out, by preparing your thoughts ahead of time. I am a California Chicano. During different periods of my life, I was t= o=20 told to =93remember the Alamo=94, I was called a =93dirty=94 Mexican, I was=20= told to=20 go back to Mexico, (my parents were born in California also), I waited in=20 markets where I was ignored until White customers were all served, and my=20 history teachers taught me that Mexicans lost the Southwest because they wer= e=20 too lazy and stupid to deserve to keep the land. (I really respected my=20 teachers, so those words hurt much more.) On television and in the movies=20 when I was growing up the best example of Mexican achievement was the ranch=20 hand =93Pepino=94 in =93The Real McCoys=94, my Indian brothers were always t= he=20 bloodthirsty savages in the cowboy movies, and the other portrayals of my=20 people included servants and law breakers. Things haven=92t changed much in=20 film and TV, we either don=92t exist or we=92re the hired hands, or the bad=20= guys.=20 Today my indigenous brothers are being evicted from their lands from Arizona= =20 to Chiapas. I=92m not looking for blame. I=92m part Native American and part Spanish= . I=20 accept that. I look for the beautiful in both my European and indigenous=20 cultures. The evil and hate that has been practiced in the past is a matter=20 of history. Let=92s learn from it in order not to repeat it. But I ask you m= y=20 brothers and sisters to help my people, especially the children, concentrate= =20 on the positive achievements of our indigenous people. I=92m a school teache= r=20 working in a barrio school for the last 27 years. I don=92t hide the=20 possibility/probabilty of human sacrifice. I try to help the kids understand= =20 why it might have happened, and how it was regarded by the people in=20 Mesoamerica, and how to relate it to the killing committed in modern times.=20 But I don=92t dwell on killing aspects of cultures. I dwell on the music,=20 poetry, art, mathematics, astronomy, and the beauty in the human spirit. I=20 enjoy pointing out Spanish words that have come from Nahuatl or Arabic. I=20 enjoy teaching children how to play the huehuetl, tlapitzalli, and the=20 teponaztli. I teach my students how to do a =93round=94 dance. The barrios are filled with my brothers and sisters who have lost pride=20 in who they are, only partly due to the negativity they encountered in the=20 media and their failures in school. Together let=92s light the =93new light= =94;=20 with your knowledge and encouragement the children can grow up being proud=20 of being Indian (and Spanish), learn more of about their languages and=20 cultures (including English), and become productive citizens of the society. Walk in beauty, Henry Vasquez From aztec at mail.utexas.edu Mon Jan 24 13:28:57 2000 From: aztec at mail.utexas.edu (Greg Whitworth) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 06:28:57 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Precisely, thank you for cutting to the heart of the issue here. For those who are interested in "thicker" (secondary) descriptions of life in Tenochtitlan as well as an interpretation of native accounts of the conquest please see Clendinnen's works: The Aztecs and "'Fierce and Unnatural Cruelty': Cortes and the Conquest of Mexico". Cheers, Greg Whitworth At 02:24 PM 1/23/00 -0700, you wrote: > >"Art is a lie that makes us realize the truth." -- Pablo Picasso > >I plan on seeing this film and will watch it with the same skepticism I have >watched other historically interpretive films such as "The Last Temptation of >Christ" or "The Messenger." Being an art teacher and armchair film critic, >I'll have ample opportunity to speak with the children in my life about race >and representation in popular culture, not to mention their responsibility, >as art-makers, to make people think with art. > >That's right. Good art makes people think. Spending my cash on a film that >may or may not cast entire races and practices in stereotypical light does >not equate with supporting the moral principles of the film or its makers. >Boycotts are ineffective because they avoid the issues rather then meet them >head-on. If we are to be warriors of knowledge we need to know what books >and films (and websites!) our children are attracted to. This includes even >really bad or misleading material. I look forward to seeing El Dorado >precisely so I can post movie reviews to my non-Nahua related message forums, >and make it clear were steroetpyes and misconceptions persist (if any at all). > >This film is not an obstacle. It is an opportunity with far-reaching >potential. > >Anyone who wishes for a little more infomation before deciding whether to see >this film may view the supporting website at http://www.roadtoeldorado.com or >view the short movie trailer at >http://www.enjoytheshow.com/trailerpark/0815yy.html > >Alison King > From cberry at cinenet.net Mon Jan 24 17:09:20 2000 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:09:20 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Apology Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jan 2000 HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com wrote: [snip] > It is not my way to be combative, and I never expected that some of you,= > =20 > my elders, would react this way. I apologize for causing any hurt. I shared=20 > the message only so that you might be ready to help out after the film came=20 > out, by preparing your thoughts ahead of time. No hurt was caused, so your apology is unnecessary. Debate harms nobody, and examination of assumptions, cultural contexts, and approaches to historical awareness is always productive. [snip] > But I don=92t dwell on killing aspects of cultures. I dwell on the music,=20 > poetry, art, mathematics, astronomy, and the beauty in the human spirit. I=20 > enjoy pointing out Spanish words that have come from Nahuatl or Arabic. I=20 > enjoy teaching children how to play the huehuetl, tlapitzalli, and the=20 > teponaztli. I teach my students how to do a =93round=94 dance. Your students are extremely fortunate to have you as a teacher, and we are all equally fortunate to have you teaching them. This is the hope of coming years. Thank you. Regards, Craig -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom" - William Blake From cberry at cinenet.net Mon Jan 24 17:12:54 2000 From: cberry at cinenet.net (Craig Berry) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:12:54 -0700 Subject: Spanish "Gods" Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Jan 2000, Richard Haly wrote: > The problem with thinking that Nahuas considered Spaniards to be gods > resides not in Nahua "naivete" nor in Spanish presumption but in our own > unexamined assumptions of what gods are. If we go back to what Nahuas > called Spaniards we find teotl and we also find that they spoke of their > own rulers using the same term. The issue is not one of deifying > Spaniards but of humanizing "gods." What is teotl? Recall that commoners > could not look directly at Moteuczomah just as they could not look > directly at the sun. Too much tonalli (radiance). They would be blinded. > It is lots more productive to think of both Nahua rulers and Spaniards > as these sort of man-gods. Good discussion of the term. I have always summarized 'teotl' for my own purposes as 'extreme, unusual, or supernatural.' A good example is the Nahua coinage 'teomazatl' for 'horse' -- it's like a deer, kind of, but incredibly unusual and extremely big for a deer. Another way to put the definition might be 'far outside everyday experience' (which is really just another way to say 'supernatural', I suppose). The thing about 'teteo' is that, being outside normal experience, you never know what powers they might have or what they might do. If you go to fight Tlaxcallans or Huaxtec, you don't necessarily know their precise battle plans or numbers, but you know how they'll fight, where they'll fight, what their goals are, what they will and won't do in combat, and so forth. Once classified as teotl, the Spaniards moved into a category characterized by unpredictability at a terrifying level. There is no shame in being reluctant to fight someone who has already shown capabilities and behaviors never before seen, and who therefore might have unknown additional powers in reserve. > What I don't understand are all these stereotypical interpretations on > either side. Perhaps it's time to again trot out a quote that appears > every so often here: Walt Kelley (creator of Pogo): "We have met the > enemy and he is us." That's a good quote to *always* have near at hand. :) -- | Craig Berry - cberry at cinenet.net --*-- http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html | "The road of Excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom" - William Blake From fjgs at servidor.unam.mx Mon Jan 24 17:28:11 2000 From: fjgs at servidor.unam.mx (Ehecatecolotl) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:28:11 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com To: Multiple recipients of list Date: Sunday, January 23, 2000 5:32 AM Subject: Re: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People >Hey Case Bodiford, > Blah blah blah blah blah. Zan yolic, zan yolic niniuhtzin, ahmo xiyolpozoni. Let the deeds and their weight of each one, be the burden to bear. Ehecatecolotl From ECOLING at aol.com Mon Jan 24 17:44:24 2000 From: ECOLING at aol.com (ECOLING at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:44:24 -0700 Subject: No need for apology Message-ID: Henry Vasquez: A beautiful statement. You have abolutely no need to apologize. My own reaction was not my best, because it was late at night, and because I have seen the kind of insensitivity which has affected you so many many times, I am getting sick of it, and sometimes I am not as carefully manipulative in my response as ethics calls for me to be (in order to effect change). Anyhow, once again, you owe no one any apology. It was the attack on you that got me so angry. lloyd Anderson Ecological Linguistics From fjgs at servidor.unam.mx Mon Jan 24 17:59:47 2000 From: fjgs at servidor.unam.mx (Ehecatecolotl) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:59:47 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Sterile talk is agression at best Don't waste your energy at it. Ehecatecolotl >> Hey Case Bodiford, >> Blah blah blah blah blah. > >You know, Yaoxochitl, your ancestors valued eloquence in public speaking >very highly. Perhaps this would be one aspect of their culture you might >consider emulating... From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Mon Jan 24 22:25:25 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:25:25 -0700 Subject: Campbell & Karttunen text Message-ID: Dear Subscribers, Due to increases in costs here at The University of Montana, the price of the 2 volume Campbell & Karttunen, Foundation Couse in Nahuatl Grammar, has increased to $40.00 for the two volumes, shipping and handling included. The cost including shipment to Europe is $71.00. http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/hotlinks.htm J. F. Schwaller List Owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Mon Jan 24 22:41:09 2000 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:41:09 -0700 Subject: Campbell & Karttunen text Message-ID: John F. Schwaller wrote: |Due to increases in costs here at The University of Montana, the price of |the 2 volume Campbell & Karttunen, Foundation Couse in Nahuatl Grammar, has |increased to $40.00 for the two volumes, shipping and handling included. |The cost including shipment to Europe is $71.00. | |http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/hotlinks.htm For those of us blessed with term programs unable to decode .htm crud, how about a snailmail address? From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Mon Jan 24 22:55:36 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:55:36 -0700 Subject: Campbell & Karttunen text Message-ID: At 03:43 PM 1/24/2000 -0700, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > >John F. Schwaller wrote: >|Due to increases in costs here at The University of Montana, the price of >|the 2 volume Campbell & Karttunen, Foundation Couse in Nahuatl Grammar, has >|increased to $40.00 for the two volumes, shipping and handling included. >|The cost including shipment to Europe is $71.00. > >For those of us blessed with term programs unable to decode .htm crud, >how about a snailmail address? > Dr. J. F. Schwaller Office of the Provost The University of Montana 32 Campus Dr, #3324 Missoula, MT 59812 John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From CBodif9907 at aol.com Tue Jan 25 00:18:35 2000 From: CBodif9907 at aol.com (CBodif9907 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:18:35 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Apology Message-ID: I think the debate was beneficial. The flaming on the list just shows how passionate people are about defending and preserving Nahua culture. I have no doubt that with more people like yourself Mr. Vasquez, awareness of cultural heritage and pride in it will continue to grow. Case Bodiford From cristi at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 25 02:26:29 2000 From: cristi at ix.netcom.com (cristi at ix.netcom.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:26:29 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Apology Message-ID: Henry, your story made me cry. I so wish that the gentle people of America didn't have to keep suffering this kind of pain. I'm glad that you are out there, teaching. You're so needed. I did want to take a moment to comment on this: > working in a barrio school for the last 27 years. I don=92t hide the=20 > possibility/probabilty of human sacrifice. I try to help the kids understand= > =20 > why it might have happened, and how it was regarded by the people in=20 > Mesoamerica, and how to relate it to the killing committed in modern times.=20 > But I don=92t dwell on killing aspects of cultures. It's a good thing to discuss, if only because white historians and conquistadors emphasized it so much. However, I do want to keep emphasizing: every single culture that I can think of has sacrificed human beings regularly at some time in its history. In fact, it was documented in the Bible as being practiced in Israel. Of *course* that bothers me, being a Jew, but hey--there it is. Almost all cultures have practiced cannibalism, if not all of them. (Probably, in fact, all of them). I think that if children need to know about middle American sacrifice, they need to know this as well! My feeling is that the middle Americans practiced sacrifice longer than (most) other cultures because #1 they were subjected to far greater threats from their environment, and #2 they have had a far rockier geological past than the rest of the planet's peoples. Although we have no written, validated, white-man's histories of what the American peoples have been through, I do believe their own oral histories--and the geological evidence of the catastrophes *abounds.* I think they were locked into a position of a feeling of total dependence on sacrifice for their very survival, and that it was-- rightfully so--inspired by these environmental threats. (Drought, vulcanism, earthquake, meteors, etc.). I also think that the way they formed their religion around it--in a way that minimized the suffering and ugliness of it and emphasized the dignity and the rewards--helped perpetuate it. Human sacrifice in other cultures was far more brutal. I *do* think that it really happened. And I *do* believe that it was *absolutely* nothing to be ashamed of. If I were an Azteca, I would without a doubt have participated happily in those rituals...after all, if it were to only way for my people to survive... Just some thoughts. Cristi From CCBtlevine at aol.com Mon Jan 24 18:25:43 2000 From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:25:43 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: In a message dated 01/23/2000 9:14:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, mexicapride at earthlink.net writes: << as a person of Mexika-Chichimeka descent, here is my reasoning on why I will boycott this "animated" distortion of history. >> Tekpatltzin, This is a little off of the subject. But, I am very much interested in your family stories or traditions that allow you to trace yourself back to the Mexika-Chichimeka. Tom Levine From cristi at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 25 12:44:22 2000 From: cristi at ix.netcom.com (cristi at ix.netcom.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 05:44:22 -0700 Subject: about your views... Message-ID: Yaoxochitl wrote to me: My reply to Yaoxochitl: An excess of exciting, passionate verbiage, insults, imprecations, and name-calling does absolutely nothing to persuade others to your point of view. I thought your people were known for their oratory skills--but perhaps you neglected to learn those skills, since they were just more "lyes" by dirty white people, eh? I have absolutely no intention of playing your silly game and trying to argue any of this with you, or to rationally discuss my sources etc., since I already know you to be a person who listens to no one at all, preferring to believe only what his fears and insecurities tell him to believe (forever after, for better or for worse). I absolutely don't give even a tiny fig what you think. That probably comes as a complete surprise to you, eh? > Hell, you even called my ancestors, "Azteca!" If you knew > anything about my people then you would at least get the name right! We were > and still called the Mexicah(Meh-Shee-Kah). Any college student knows that > the term "aztec" is a misnomer created by 19th century scholars! On the contrary, Mexica is what YOUR ancestors were called. I was referring to the Azteca, including ALL of the peoples in that region who spoke Nahuatl, not just your poor, overburdened little group. Properly, I should have included the Maya as well. So please, > do me a favor, have the decency to research before you "feel" or "think" > about a subject you know nothing about. Please do me the favor of having the *guts* to post these kinds of "opinions" publicly, rather than personally, to listmembers. Cristi From godkillah at hotmail.com Tue Jan 25 17:11:12 2000 From: godkillah at hotmail.com (Kurly Tlapoyahua) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:11:12 -0700 Subject: "Gods" and "Sacrifice" Message-ID: Recent statements have been made regarding the concept of "Gods" and human sacrifice among the Aztekah/Mexikah people. Most of this discussion has been dominated by Europeans who use European texts as their primary sources. Perhaps an Indigenous perspective on this subject is needed. I offer the following: Sahagun, Duran and others eh? Hmmn sounds like a shady bunch of characters to me. I suppose if the Nazis took it upon themselves to write the history of the jews we would be using their texts as primary sources as well? "Informants" were actually what we we call "Praying Indians" - those who sided with the Spaniards and against their own people. These were the only cats who were even taught how to read and write in Latin characters, and even then under the watchful eye of their Spanish masters. These same "informants" would be killed if their writings did not reflect the views of their masters. Thats something to consider. Also, the Spaniards had just spent the last few hundred years conducting smear campaigns against the Moors and jews. Why would they be doing anything different here? Second, the idea of "Gods" did not even exist among Anawak societies. The term Teotl has mistakenly been translated as "God" - possibly because it is similar in pronunciation to "Theos." But hey, if you repeat a lie enough times, people no longer question the validity of it, they just accept it as truth. Yet this lie seems just as ingrained as the myth of sacrifice. Ketzalkotal (Which translates to "beautiful and upstanding Serpent" NOT "Feathered serpent" as many would like to believe) was a titl egiven to men adn women who had achievd enlightenment, and transceneded their human-ness. A man named Ze Akatl Topilztin was porbably the most noted person to hold this title. The spaniards were called "teuleh" by the Mexika - a term which means "stinky" or "smellY" - (why do you think they were bathed in Kopal smoke and flowers) so much for European dillusions of grandeur. No reliable records exist which indicate sacrifice ever existed (though the Spanirds did manage to torture a couple of confessions out of a couple of Mayans - which in iteslf means nothing, Salem witch trials anyone?) The Mexika did, however, have a very strict legal system. Drunkennes, theft, adultery, etc. were punishable by death. The criminals would have their heads removed, cleaned, and placed on display (the famous skull racks) a strong detereent to any would-be criminal. (BTW the number of skulls on dsplay was greatly exagerated by the Spaniards) Cortez was allowed to enter Mexiko-Tenochtitlan for a number of reasons: He announed that he and his people were represnetatives of a far-away kingdom and he gave no indications of intent to wage war, he arrived during a time when warfare was traditionaly not waged (most warriors were tending to crops and fields at this time), It was custom to recieve representatives of other nations in good faith. My sources? Well, I have done most of my research while living in Mexiko. So these might be hard to find: Juicio A Espana - Xokonoschtletl Los Gobiernos Socialistas de Anahuac - Dr. Romero Vargas Iturbide Mosaico De Turquesas - Arturo Meza Gutierrez Calendiaro Mexicano - Aruro Meza Gutierrez Esplendor de la cultura Anahuac - Miguel Angel Mendoza Invasion o Conquista - Akamapichtli Human sacrifice among the Aztecs - fact or fantasy? - Dr.Peter Hassler There are literally hundreds of books such as these. Most I own, and far too many to list here. PS - funny that only Post-conquest codices have any references to "sacrifice" - has anybody ever bothered to even question why? In Mexikayoyeliztli Aik Ixpoliuz "Kurly" Tlapoyawa Also, I am not a member of this listerve, any responses can be made to me at: Godkillah at Hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mictlan at hooked.net Tue Jan 25 17:38:32 2000 From: mictlan at hooked.net (mictlacihuatl) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:38:32 -0700 Subject: about your views... Message-ID: I've been pretty quiet during this whole thread (as usual) but damn does it get anymore arrogant and reactionary than this, CRISTI? Other people? Figures... In mexicayotl yeliztli aik ixpoliuiz! -Mictlacihuatl At 05:45 AM 1/25/00 -0700, you wrote: >Yaoxochitl wrote to me: > >opinions, and Europeans in general, using epithets like: > > racist, >ethnocentric, and paternalistic presumptions > xenophobia and a wrath >of ignorance >grossly disorted picture of "history" and >fostering nothing more than this fantastic lye. >spoon-fed you in high >school, >absurd conclusion >dont rant >and rave about some biased, racist spanish friar >your views are based on sentimental evasions, quick certainties, >and >easy slogans. >So please, >do me a favor, have the decency to research before you "feel" or >"think" >about a subject you know nothing about.> > >My reply to Yaoxochitl: > >An excess of exciting, passionate verbiage, insults, imprecations, >and name-calling does absolutely nothing to persuade others to >your point of view. I thought your people were known for their >oratory skills--but perhaps you neglected to learn those skills, >since they were just more "lyes" by dirty white people, eh? I have >absolutely no intention of playing your silly game and trying to >argue any of this with you, or to rationally discuss my sources >etc., since I already know you to be a person who listens to no one >at all, preferring to believe only what his fears and insecurities tell >him to believe (forever after, for better or for worse). I absolutely >don't give even a tiny fig what you think. That probably comes as a >complete surprise to you, eh? > >> Hell, you even called my ancestors, "Azteca!" If you knew >> anything about my people then you would at least get the name right! We were >> and still called the Mexicah(Meh-Shee-Kah). Any college student knows that >> the term "aztec" is a misnomer created by 19th century scholars! > >On the contrary, Mexica is what YOUR ancestors were called. I >was referring to the Azteca, including ALL of the peoples in that >region who spoke Nahuatl, not just your poor, overburdened little >group. Properly, I should have included the Maya as well. > >So please, >> do me a favor, have the decency to research before you "feel" or "think" >> about a subject you know nothing about. > >Please do me the favor of having the *guts* to post these kinds of >"opinions" publicly, rather than personally, to listmembers. > >Cristi > From scalderon at spin.com.mx Tue Jan 25 18:28:20 2000 From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:28:20 -0700 Subject: my page on nahuatl Message-ID: I`ve made a page with some nahuatl links, that you may find interesting. Salvador Calderon From malinal at evhr.net Tue Jan 25 19:53:40 2000 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:53:40 -0700 Subject: my page on nahuatl Message-ID: >I`ve made a page with some nahuatl links, that you may find interesting. > >Salvador Calderon > where can we find your page? please. A.Wimmer From scalderon at spin.com.mx Tue Jan 25 20:34:10 2000 From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:34:10 -0700 Subject: my page on nahuatl Message-ID: I don't know where I have my head lately, here is the URL: http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/nahuatl.html ----- Original Message ----- From: alexis wimmer To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 1:56 PM Subject: Re: my page on nahuatl > > > >I`ve made a page with some nahuatl links, that you may find interesting. > > > >Salvador Calderon > > > > where can we find your page? please. > > A.Wimmer > > From bnelson at asu.edu Tue Jan 25 23:23:54 2000 From: bnelson at asu.edu (Ben Nelson) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:23:54 -0700 Subject: Luminous brujas Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF6789.556B2E32 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Maybe it takes us too far afield, but these accounts are strikingly similar in some ways to ones that I got in the Maya Highlands (Chuj region). Beings called "Chiapas" live in the cerros, where they keep great stores of tequila and food, which they can hurl from one mountaintop to another. These beings are spirit-extensions of individual humans and can mediate for them in the living world. They can be seen on clear nights as luminous dwarfs who slide smoothly through the air just above the ground. Under such circumstances, it can be dangerous to encounter one, but they can also do good. Not everyone can see them, and they are almost never seen in the rainy season. Ben Nelson -----Original Message----- From: David L. Frye [mailto:dfrye at umich.edu] Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 8:57 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Firefly Lore Likewise in Mexquitic, SLP (one of the former Tlaxcalan settlements in the north, where Nahuatl was spoken until 1850 or so). "Brujas" (there is no nahuatl word used) are seen as lights dancing along the hills at night, and are said to come into houses to suck people dry -- why else do old people look so wrinkled, after all? But in the three years I lived in Mexquitic I don't recall ever seeing a firefly -- too high & dry, I suppose. The "naturalistic" explanation of the lights would probably be lightning flashes. > This meshes neatly with what J.L. McKeever Furst writes about of people in > the same region, whose "major worry is the witch, or nahualli, a terrifying > and malevolent being whose activities are known in catastrophies, misfortune > and illnesses, whose lanterns dance along trails at night." > Lights are also associated with "the tlahuepoches, or dangerous nocturnal > birds that suck blood from adults (but prefer the blood of infants) through lo > ng beaks they use as suction tubes." .... "In Alta, these fearsome > tlahuepoches either carry lights or emit a glow themselves." ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF6789.556B2E32 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Luminous brujas

Maybe it takes us too far afield, but these accounts = are strikingly similar in some ways to ones that I got in the Maya = Highlands (Chuj region).  Beings called "Chiapas" live = in the cerros, where they keep great stores of tequila and food, which = they can hurl from one mountaintop to another.  These beings are = spirit-extensions of individual humans and can mediate for them in the = living world.  They can be seen on clear nights as luminous dwarfs = who slide smoothly through the air just above the ground.  Under = such circumstances, it can be dangerous to encounter one, but they can = also do good.  Not everyone can see them, and they are almost = never seen in the rainy season.

Ben Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: David L. Frye [mailto:dfrye at umich.edu]
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 8:57 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: Firefly Lore


Likewise in Mexquitic, SLP (one of the former = Tlaxcalan settlements in the
north, where Nahuatl was spoken until 1850 or so). = "Brujas" (there is no
nahuatl word used) are seen as lights dancing along = the hills at night,
and are said to come into houses to suck people dry = -- why else do old
people look so wrinkled, after all? But in the three = years I lived in
Mexquitic I don't recall ever seeing a firefly -- = too high & dry, I
suppose. The "naturalistic" explanation of = the lights would probably be
lightning flashes.

> This meshes neatly with what J.L. McKeever Furst = writes about of people in
> the same region, whose "major worry is the = witch, or nahualli, a terrifying
> and malevolent being whose activities are known = in catastrophies, misfortune
> and illnesses, whose lanterns dance along = trails at night."
> Lights are also associated with "the = tlahuepoches, or dangerous nocturnal
> birds that suck blood from adults (but prefer = the blood of infants) through lo
> ng beaks they use as suction tubes." .... = "In Alta, these fearsome
> tlahuepoches either carry lights or emit a glow = themselves."

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF6789.556B2E32-- From mmontcha at OregonVOS.net Wed Jan 26 01:58:45 2000 From: mmontcha at OregonVOS.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:58:45 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl Comics by Snailmail? Message-ID: Surely somebody somewhere offers by snailmail a monthly comic strip in Nahuatl? If you know of one, even if it is just a home-business operation, I'd like to hear about it. From sullivan at logicnet.com.mx Wed Jan 26 02:13:37 2000 From: sullivan at logicnet.com.mx (John Sullivan Hendricks) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:13:37 -0700 Subject: digital camaras and colonial documents Message-ID: Someone suggested to me that a portable and cheap way to get around photocopying, microfilming or scanning documents in colonial archives would be a digital camara. Can anybody give me some advice on this. I will be using a Macintosh G-3 portable computer. As far as the camara goes, obviously it would have to be able to take close up pictures from a tripod, and the image would have to be good enough to read the manuscripts. I tried e-mailing Canon, but their web page doesn't accept foreign e-mails (So much for globalization!). Any suggestions? John Sullivan Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas From Kexa14 at aol.com Wed Jan 26 07:36:03 2000 From: Kexa14 at aol.com (Kexa14 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 00:36:03 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl Comics by Snailmail? Message-ID: I would like to take part in that to so please send it my way too! From Wulifu at aol.com Wed Jan 26 15:04:17 2000 From: Wulifu at aol.com (Wulifu at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:04:17 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Mr. Bodiford, Your argument comes across as well-reasoned and articulate, and, most importantly, sincere. It was not at all boring. Chuck Oliver From Wulifu at aol.com Wed Jan 26 15:18:53 2000 From: Wulifu at aol.com (Wulifu at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:18:53 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: Tekpatltzin, With your eloquence, sensitivity and compassion, it would be wonderful if you could write material about your people and their history for children of the Americas. More and more such books exist; I bought several for young relatives and friends recently. They DO have an impact. Interestingly, I first developed an interest in Mexican culture while reading a National Geographic article on the Aztecs which did mention and illustrate, among other things, human sacrifice. In my case, my interest in the culture grew, my reading expanded and I eventually became convinced that the European conquest of the Americas involved one of the greatest cultural crimes of all times, a true series of genocides. And, everyone who listens to my views on the subject knows how strongly I believe that. The point is that even negative and neutral images can plant the seed that produces a deeper and more comprehensive understanding. Of course, the positive images, unless they are maudlin and obviously propagandistic, are more valuable. Chuck Oliver From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Wed Jan 26 15:33:10 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:33:10 -0700 Subject: digital camaras and colonial documents Message-ID: For many years, now decades, I have shot my own microfilm. It is simple, easy, cheap, and when they let you do it a great alternative. All it takes is a single lense reflex camera, a tripod, a flash and high resolution black and white film. In fact the film is so forgiving that you can develop it yourself... I have literally scores of rolls of microfilm I shot myself dating back to the early '70s J. F. Schwaller John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From Wulifu at aol.com Wed Jan 26 15:36:06 2000 From: Wulifu at aol.com (Wulifu at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:36:06 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Apology Message-ID: You appear to be a real teacher and will undoubtedly impart wisdom to those who hear you. From heatherhess at hotmail.com Wed Jan 26 20:24:10 2000 From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:24:10 -0700 Subject: Spanish "Gods" Message-ID: I want to reply to this subject on a very personal note. I am Canadian and have spent much of my last few years in Mexico. I have had varied experiences learning Nahautl and am associated with Aztec Dancers so have first hand information. These people that are my friends are hospitable before anything ' they open up their doors ' give you food ' hospitality ' anything I ever need is just there. The Spaniards when they came also received a warm welcome but abused and took advantage of the Aztecas! I can only say that if only the rest of the world could learn to open up their doors to people the way Mexicans do we wouldn?t have so much trouble in the world right now! We must quit worrying about trivialities and get down to the basics! We as a tiny particle of this world must learn to once again respect and be open to people more than we are to material goods ' movies fit into that category ' movies are for entertainment ' they are not to be taken seriously ' people that see movies come to their own conclusions ' people that are aware will realize the misgivings of what is popular in the eyes of the public ' those that are not aware ' well ' for them there is no hope! Forgive the format of this message ' I have to pay for computer time so didn?t stop to format this opinion! Itzpapalotzin >From: Richard Haly >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Spanish "Gods" >Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:41:01 -0700 > > > The entire > > "Cortes-Quetzalcoatl" scenario appears only in the later accounts. While > > it is fairly clear that Nahuas applied the term "teotl" to the Spanish > > early on, it is also clear that the Spanish thought they were being >called > > "gods" and that they relished the idea, despite the fact that the Nahuas > > never revered them as gods. To pretend that identifying "whites" as gods > > is a generic "native" reaction to "superior strangers" is arguably >racist.>> > >The problem with thinking that Nahuas considered Spaniards to be gods >resides not in Nahua "naivete" nor in Spanish presumption but in our own >unexamined assumptions of what gods are. If we go back to what Nahuas >called >Spaniards we find teotl and we also find that they spoke of their own >rulers >using the same term. The issue is not one of deifying Spaniards but of >humanizing "gods." What is teotl? Recall that commoners could not look >directly at Moteuczomah just as they could not look directly at the sun. >Too >much tonalli (radiance). They would be blinded. It is lots more productive >to think of both Nahua rulers and Spaniards as these sort of man-gods. > >What I don't understand are all these stereotypical interpretations on >either side. Perhaps it's time to again trot out a quote that appears every >so often here: Walt Kelley (creator of Pogo): "We have met the enemy and he >is us." > >Richard Haly > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From heatherhess at hotmail.com Wed Jan 26 20:40:37 2000 From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:40:37 -0700 Subject: Spanish "Gods" Message-ID: Woops - This should have been directed to the Movie Chat ' not the Spanish God thread! Itzpapalotzin >From: "Heather Hess" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Re: Spanish "Gods" >Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:24:47 -0700 > >I want to reply to this subject on a very personal note. I am Canadian and >have spent much of my last few years in Mexico. I have had varied >experiences learning Nahautl and am associated with Aztec Dancers so have >first hand information. These people that are my friends are hospitable >before anything ' they open up their doors ' give you food ' hospitality ' >anything I ever need is just there. The Spaniards when they came also >received a warm welcome but abused and took advantage of the Aztecas! I >can >only say that if only the rest of the world could learn to open up their >doors to people the way Mexicans do we wouldn?t have so much trouble in the >world right now! We must quit worrying about trivialities and get down to >the basics! We as a tiny particle of this world must learn to once again >respect and be open to people more than we are to material goods ' movies >fit into that category ' movies are for entertainment ' they are not to be >taken seriously ' people that see movies come to their own conclusions ' >people that are aware will realize the misgivings of what is popular in the >eyes of the public ' those that are not aware ' well ' for them there is no >hope! Forgive the format of this message ' I have to pay for computer time >so didn?t stop to format this opinion! > >Itzpapalotzin > > > >From: Richard Haly > >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > >To: Multiple recipients of list > >Subject: Spanish "Gods" > >Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:41:01 -0700 > > > > > The entire > > > "Cortes-Quetzalcoatl" scenario appears only in the later accounts. >While > > > it is fairly clear that Nahuas applied the term "teotl" to the Spanish > > > early on, it is also clear that the Spanish thought they were being > >called > > > "gods" and that they relished the idea, despite the fact that the >Nahuas > > > never revered them as gods. To pretend that identifying "whites" as >gods > > > is a generic "native" reaction to "superior strangers" is arguably > >racist.>> > > > >The problem with thinking that Nahuas considered Spaniards to be gods > >resides not in Nahua "naivete" nor in Spanish presumption but in our own > >unexamined assumptions of what gods are. If we go back to what Nahuas > >called > >Spaniards we find teotl and we also find that they spoke of their own > >rulers > >using the same term. The issue is not one of deifying Spaniards but of > >humanizing "gods." What is teotl? Recall that commoners could not look > >directly at Moteuczomah just as they could not look directly at the sun. > >Too > >much tonalli (radiance). They would be blinded. It is lots more >productive > >to think of both Nahua rulers and Spaniards as these sort of man-gods. > > > >What I don't understand are all these stereotypical interpretations on > >either side. Perhaps it's time to again trot out a quote that appears >every > >so often here: Walt Kelley (creator of Pogo): "We have met the enemy and >he > >is us." > > > >Richard Haly > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From carlos.robles at valeo.com Wed Jan 26 21:42:13 2000 From: carlos.robles at valeo.com (carlos.robles at valeo.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:42:13 -0700 Subject: Not really about Spanish "Gods" Message-ID: Your comment is accurate, not exactly about the original mentioned subj= ect but very good. I am Mexican and I feel more proud of my Mexican part rather than my Sp= anish one, as you know we are the result of a mix of local inhabitants depend= ing on the region, Spaniards and Arabs who conquested Spain for 7 centuries. I= have been in Spain and the people is not very nice neither with foreign peop= le nor with people from different Spanish regions. But my real interest is to emphasize that the language?s morphology ref= lect their speaking people habits, morals and behaviors. The Nahuatl has three different speaking formats: plain, formal and ve= ry formal; the way the pure Aztecs were ennobling the human being. And the words themselves reflect the regard people has to others, for i= nstance "Tlasohkamahtli", Thanks means literately ?love to you through my mouth= ?. I hope this message do not offend Spaniards but It is true. Best regards And thanks for your comment. "Heather Hess" on 26/01/2000 02:25:20 PM Please respond to nahuat-l at server.umt.edu To: Multiple recipients of list cc: (bcc: Carlos ROBLES/Sanluis/VWS/VALEO) Subject: Re: Spanish "Gods" = I want to reply to this subject on a very personal note. I am Canadian= and have spent much of my last few years in Mexico. I have had varied experiences learning Nahautl and am associated with Aztec Dancers so ha= ve first hand information. These people that are my friends are hospitabl= e before anything ' they open up their doors ' give you food ' hospitalit= y ' anything I ever need is just there. The Spaniards when they came also received a warm welcome but abused and took advantage of the Aztecas! = I can only say that if only the rest of the world could learn to open up thei= r doors to people the way Mexicans do we wouldn=B4t have so much trouble = in the world right now! We must quit worrying about trivialities and get down= to the basics! We as a tiny particle of this world must learn to once aga= in respect and be open to people more than we are to material goods ' movi= es fit into that category ' movies are for entertainment ' they are not to= be taken seriously ' people that see movies come to their own conclusions = ' people that are aware will realize the misgivings of what is popular in= the eyes of the public ' those that are not aware ' well ' for them there i= s no hope! Forgive the format of this message ' I have to pay for computer = time so didn=B4t stop to format this opinion! Itzpapalotzin >From: Richard Haly >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Spanish "Gods" >Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:41:01 -0700 > > > The entire > > "Cortes-Quetzalcoatl" scenario appears only in the later accounts. = While > > it is fairly clear that Nahuas applied the term "teotl" to the Span= ish > > early on, it is also clear that the Spanish thought they were being= >called > > "gods" and that they relished the idea, despite the fact that the N= ahuas > > never revered them as gods. To pretend that identifying "whites" as= gods > > is a generic "native" reaction to "superior strangers" is arguably >racist.>> > >The problem with thinking that Nahuas considered Spaniards to be gods >resides not in Nahua "naivete" nor in Spanish presumption but in our o= wn >unexamined assumptions of what gods are. If we go back to what Nahuas >called >Spaniards we find teotl and we also find that they spoke of their own >rulers >using the same term. The issue is not one of deifying Spaniards but o= f >humanizing "gods." What is teotl? Recall that commoners could not look= >directly at Moteuczomah just as they could not look directly at the su= n. >Too >much tonalli (radiance). They would be blinded. It is lots more produc= tive >to think of both Nahua rulers and Spaniards as these sort of man-gods.= > >What I don't understand are all these stereotypical interpretations on= >either side. Perhaps it's time to again trot out a quote that appears = every >so often here: Walt Kelley (creator of Pogo): "We have met the enemy a= nd he >is us." > >Richard Haly > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com = From Yaoxochitl at aol.com Thu Jan 27 01:12:41 2000 From: Yaoxochitl at aol.com (Yaoxochitl at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:12:41 -0700 Subject: Spanish "Gods" Message-ID: Itzpapalotzin, But movies are taken seriously, especially if the subject matter is controversial. "Last Temptation of Christ" was blasted by christians, denouncing the movie for its "blasphemous" illustration of jesus. In a society where entertainment molds and influences our standards and practices, the images can be culturally damaging to a targeted ethnic group. What would African-americans do if the entertainment industry promoted a performance of black-faced "mammy" dancers as a tribute to Al Joleson? Does that encapsulate of what an African-american is like? Or would it be right to portray Native-americans as crazy drunks in movies? The point is, absurd inaccuracies, like in the movie, "El Dorado", targeted at an ethnic group can be very hurtful and painful. From malinal at evhr.net Thu Jan 27 14:24:09 2000 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:24:09 -0700 Subject: Spanish "Gods" Message-ID: Richard Haly wrote: >The problem with thinking that Nahuas considered Spaniards to be gods >resides not in Nahua "naivete" nor in Spanish presumption but in our own >unexamined assumptions of what gods are. If we go back to what Nahuas called >Spaniards we find teotl and we also find that they spoke of their own rulers >using the same term. The issue is not one of deifying Spaniards but of >humanizing "gods." I apologize for scriving French but my English is very too bad. Quelques remarques sur les Espagnols consid?r?s comme des dieux. 1. Je ne comprends pas pourquoi Cort?s et ses compagnons ont ?t? si fiers d? ?tre pris pour des ?teules?. Puisqu?ils ont tr?s t?t consid?r? les dieux du Mexique comme des d?mons ?pouvantables. 2. Il n?est pas du tout s?r que le terme ? teotl ? / ? teteoh ? appliqu? aux Espagnols par les Azt?ques se rapporte ? l?id?e d?une sup?riorit? des envahisseurs, pas m?me ? leur inqui?tante ?tranget?, cette id?e d??tranget? est exprim? en nahuatl par le morph?me ? tetzauh ? / ? tetzhuitl ? et pas par le morph?me ? teo-tl ?. 3. Je suis tr?s interess? par l?id?e qu?il s?agit moins d?une divinisation des Espagnols que ? humanisation ? des dieux. 4. Mais cette humanisation des dieux ne doit pas ?tre confondue avec l? anthropomorphisation des dieux par les Grecs ou par les Romains (statue d? Apollon ou d?Athena). 5. Je ne suis pas s?r que les Azt?ques aient couramment repr?sent? leurs dieux sous des traits humains. Cf. la c?l?bre statue de Coatlicue. 6. Ce que l?on prend le plus souvent pour des images des dieux azt?ques (dans les calendriers comme le Borbonicus par exemple) sont en r?alit? des images d?hommes ou de femmes qui dans les f?tes repr?sentent les dieux en portant leur costume et ou leur parure traditionnelle. 7. Ces hommes et ces femmes v?tus comme des dieux et qui incarnent ou repr?sentent les dieux (? in ixiptlahhuan in teteoh ?) sont aussi appel?s du nom du dieu qu?ils incarnent. Il sont eux m?me appel?s ?dieu?, ? teotl ?. 8. Ces hommes et ces femmes sont parfois des pr?tres, mais ce sont dans l? immense majorit? des cas des ennemis vaincus, des esclaves achet?s sur le march? d?Azcapotzalco, des prostitu?es ou courtisanes, ce sont les plus souvent des ETRANGERS. 9. Ces esclaves, ces vaincus, ces ?trangers, ces parias sont en quelque mani?re, le temps d?une f?te, des ?dieux? ILS SONT LES DIEUX et on les entoure de beaucoup de soins mais on ne leur rend pas de culte. Ils serviront au culte. Les textes disent qu?on les sacrifiera aux dieux. En conclusion mon hypoth?se est que lorsque les Azt?ques disent que les Espagnols sont des Dieux ils ne disent pas autre chose que : ?ce sont des ?trangers? (je n?ose pas ajouter : tout juste bons ? ?tre sacrifi?s). A.Wimmer. From bnelson at asu.edu Thu Jan 27 16:34:36 2000 From: bnelson at asu.edu (Ben Nelson) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:34:36 -0700 Subject: Luminous brujas Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF68E4.1C04B62A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Maybe it takes us too far afield, but these accounts are strikingly similar in some ways to ones that I got in the Maya Highlands (Chuj region). Beings called "Chiapas" live in the cerros, where they keep great stores of tequila and food, which they can hurl from one mountaintop to another. These beings are spirit-extensions of individual humans and can mediate for them in the living world. They can be seen on clear nights as luminous dwarfs who slide smoothly through the air just above the ground. Under such circumstances, it can be dangerous to encounter one, but they can also do good. Not everyone can see them, and they are almost never seen in the rainy season. Ben Nelson -----Original Message----- From: David L. Frye [mailto:dfrye at umich.edu] Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 8:57 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Firefly Lore Likewise in Mexquitic, SLP (one of the former Tlaxcalan settlements in the north, where Nahuatl was spoken until 1850 or so). "Brujas" (there is no nahuatl word used) are seen as lights dancing along the hills at night, and are said to come into houses to suck people dry -- why else do old people look so wrinkled, after all? But in the three years I lived in Mexquitic I don't recall ever seeing a firefly -- too high & dry, I suppose. The "naturalistic" explanation of the lights would probably be lightning flashes. > This meshes neatly with what J.L. McKeever Furst writes about of people in > the same region, whose "major worry is the witch, or nahualli, a terrifying > and malevolent being whose activities are known in catastrophies, misfortune > and illnesses, whose lanterns dance along trails at night." > Lights are also associated with "the tlahuepoches, or dangerous nocturnal > birds that suck blood from adults (but prefer the blood of infants) through lo > ng beaks they use as suction tubes." .... "In Alta, these fearsome > tlahuepoches either carry lights or emit a glow themselves." ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF68E4.1C04B62A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Luminous brujas

Maybe it takes us too far afield, but these accounts = are strikingly similar in some ways to ones that I got in the Maya = Highlands (Chuj region).  Beings called "Chiapas" live = in the cerros, where they keep great stores of tequila and food, which = they can hurl from one mountaintop to another.  These beings are = spirit-extensions of individual humans and can mediate for them in the = living world.  They can be seen on clear nights as luminous dwarfs = who slide smoothly through the air just above the ground.  Under = such circumstances, it can be dangerous to encounter one, but they can = also do good.  Not everyone can see them, and they are almost = never seen in the rainy season.

Ben Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: David L. Frye [mailto:dfrye at umich.edu]
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 8:57 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: Firefly Lore


Likewise in Mexquitic, SLP (one of the former = Tlaxcalan settlements in the
north, where Nahuatl was spoken until 1850 or so). = "Brujas" (there is no
nahuatl word used) are seen as lights dancing along = the hills at night,
and are said to come into houses to suck people dry = -- why else do old
people look so wrinkled, after all? But in the three = years I lived in
Mexquitic I don't recall ever seeing a firefly -- = too high & dry, I
suppose. The "naturalistic" explanation of = the lights would probably be
lightning flashes.

> This meshes neatly with what J.L. McKeever Furst = writes about of people in
> the same region, whose "major worry is the = witch, or nahualli, a terrifying
> and malevolent being whose activities are known = in catastrophies, misfortune
> and illnesses, whose lanterns dance along = trails at night."
> Lights are also associated with "the = tlahuepoches, or dangerous nocturnal
> birds that suck blood from adults (but prefer = the blood of infants) through lo
> ng beaks they use as suction tubes." .... = "In Alta, these fearsome
> tlahuepoches either carry lights or emit a glow = themselves."

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF68E4.1C04B62A-- From AscheAsh2 at aol.com Thu Jan 27 17:12:26 2000 From: AscheAsh2 at aol.com (AscheAsh2 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:12:26 -0700 Subject: Terrence's list Message-ID: Hello you all. I'd like to get a liitle help in bibliography. Working on a vocabulary with an incorporated concordance, it occured to me to check on Kaufman's linguistic list. of about 1500 words, but could not find it. Can anybody tell me where to look for sure? Many Thanks. Werner Asche AscheAsh2 at aol.com From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Jan 28 02:54:23 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:54:23 -0700 Subject: Movie Boycott -Stereotyping Native People Message-ID: > Most people refer to the idea that Cortes was mistaken for > Quetzalcoatl as a real life example of Native Americans > deifying white men. However, I challenge anybody to find a > reference to Cortes as Quetzalcoatl that predates the 18th > century. Try the end of Chapter 3 of Book 12 of the Florentine Codex. But also bear in mind that that account of the conquest was composed as much as a half-century after the events by Bernardino de Sahagun's Nahua assistants, people who certainly needed an explanation of why things happened as they did. Fran Karttunen From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Jan 28 03:43:36 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:43:36 -0700 Subject: Campbell & Karttunen text Message-ID: > The cost including shipment to Europe is $71.00. There is another route for European shipment of the Foundation Course. The University of Helsinki made copies for an intensive Nahuatl course for Europeans I taught in the spring of 1998. There are some surplus copies available. If you are in Europe and want a copy, you can contact Jan-Ola Oestman at the following address: joostman at tuuri.ling.helsinki.fi Fran Karttunen From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Jan 28 03:46:30 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:46:30 -0700 Subject: Not really about Spanish "Gods" Message-ID: > "Tlasohkamahtli", Thanks means literately ?love to you through my mouth= > ?. Well, not quite. The form is tlazohca:mati, and it does not contain cama-tl 'mouth' or, by extension, 'utterance.' The -ca:- element is known as a "ligature" and is here used to connect tlaxoh- (an element that has to do with value, love, and affection) to the verb mati 'to know something.' Fran From Teuhtlili at aol.com Fri Jan 28 05:14:10 2000 From: Teuhtlili at aol.com (Teuhtlili at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 22:14:10 -0700 Subject: Fwd: FW: This is real! Just send it on please Message-ID: --part1_84.b67daf.25c27b8e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_84.b67daf.25c27b8e_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: SKITTRO at aol.com From: SKITTRO at aol.com Full-name: SKITTRO Message-ID: <74.10f3154.25bfa046 at aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:56:38 EST Subject: Fwd: FW: This is real! 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Just send it on please Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:06:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Rosenthal, Lee Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 8:33 AM To: Asher, Mark; Dempsey, Ellen; Gomez, Monica; Griffin, Dave; Hanes, Shelby; Henry, Linda; Hersh, Dale; KGME Sales; Liotta, Tim; Marotta, Vince Subject: FW: This is real! Just send it on please -----Original Message----- From: Rice, Steve Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 8:26 AM To: 'cwilliams at knbr.com' Cc: DeMedicis, Linda; Dillon, Tom; KFYI Sales; KGME Sales; KKFR Sales; KMLE Sales; KOOL Sales; KOY Sales; KYOT Sales; KZON Sales; Zucchini, Julie; Woods, Grant; Wallace, Todd; Sutherland, Scott; Rosson, Nikki; Phoenix Marketing/Promotions; Phoenix IT People; Phoenix Engineering; 'melanierice at att.com'; 'sholt at knbr.com'; 'jratto at susqsf.com' Subject: FW: This is real! Just send it on please -----Original Message----- From: Krelle, Shari [mailto:KrelleS at CTT.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 5:50 PM To: 'gault1 at home.com'; 'laccarino at att.com'; 'RRodriguez at pacunion.com'; 'metromacs at aol.com'; 'publicnut at aol.com'; Perry, Pamela Subject: FW: This is real! Just send it on please -----Original Message----- From: Perry, Pamela Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 4:45 PM To: Krelle, Shari; Linder, Jennifer; Emmett, Anna; Despotakis, Shelley; Johnson, Venetia; Aura, Erin Subject: FW: This is real! Just send it on please -----Original Message----- From: MASONINC at concentric.net [mailto:MASONINC at concentric.net] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 9:20 AM To: Uncle Bobby; Tonja Caponigro; Tim Johnson; Sharon Marshall; Pam Perry; Melanie Meinert; Maria LaSalle; Joey LaSalle; Jeff Runyan; Heather; Donna Mattie; Delores DeMartini; Carrie LaSalle; Brian & Jen; Beth & Steve Subject: Fw: This is real! Just send it on please ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 8:46 AM Subject: This is real! Just send it on please > Do you really think this is real? When I get my check, I'll believe it. > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > ___ > > >> >>>> > >>> Subject: This is real! > > >> >>>> > >>> > > >> >>>> > >>> > > >> >>>> > >>> I'm an attorney, and I know the law. This thing is for > > >> >>>> > >>> real. Rest assured AOL and Intel will follow through > > >> >>>> > >>> with their promises for fear of facing an multimillion > > >> >>>> > >>> dollar class action suit similar to the one filed by > Pepsico > > >> >>>> > >>> against General Electric not too long ago. I'll be damned > > >> >>>> > >>> if we're all going to help them out with their e-mail beta > > >> >>>> > >>> test without getting a little something for our time. My > > >> >>>> > >>> brother's girlfriend got in on this a few months ago. > > >> >>>> > >>> When I went to visit him for the Baylor/UT game she > > >> >>>> > >>> showed me her check. It was for the sum of $4,324.44 > > >> >>>> > >>> and was stamped "Paid In Full". Like I said before, > > >> >>>> > >>> I know the law, and this is for real. If you don't > believe > > >> >>>> > >>> me you can email her at jpiltman at baylor.edu. She's > > >> >>>> > >>> eager to answer any questions you guys might have. > > >> >>>> > >>> Thanks, Dirk. I know I'm already in. Moore, Dirk" > > >> >>>> > >>> wrote: If you don't do this, you must be really, really > > >> >>>> > >>> dumb. From: James M. Schwarnica This is not a joke. > > >> >>>> > >>> I am forwarding this because the person who sent it to > > >> >>>> > >>> me is a good friend and does not send me junk. Intel > > >> >>>> > >>> and AOL are now discussing a merger which would > > >> >>>> > >>> make them the largest Internet company and in an > > >> >>>> > >>> effort make sure that AOL remains the most widely > > >> >>>> > >>> used program, Intel and AOL are running an e-mail > > >> >>>> > >>> beta test. When you forward this e-mail to friends, > > >> >>>> > >>> Intel can and will track it (if you are a Microsoft > > >> >>>> > >>> Windows user) for a two week time period. For > > >> >>>> > >>> every person that you forward this e-mail to, Microsoft > > >> >>>> > >>> will pay you $203.15, for every person that you sent it > > >> >>>> > >>> to that forwards it on, Microsoft will pay you $156.29 > > >> >>>> > >>> and for every third person that receives it, you will be > > >> >>>> > >>> paid $17.65 Within two weeks, Intel will contact you for > > >> >>>> > >>> your address and then send you a check. I thought this > > >> >>>> > >>> was a scam myself, but a friend of my good friend's > > >> >>>> > >>> Aunt Patricia, who works at Intel actually got a check for > > >> >>>> > >>> $4,543.23 by forwarding this e-mail. > > >> >>>> > >>> > > >> >>>> > >>> Try it, what have you got to lose???? > > > --part5_84.b67daf.25b8cd1e_boundary-- --part4_84.b67daf.25bb9888_boundary-- --part3_84.b67daf.25bbf22a_boundary-- --part2_84.b67daf.25bfa046_boundary-- --part1_84.b67daf.25c27b8e_boundary-- From marisol at tiscalinet.it Fri Jan 28 09:54:46 2000 From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:54:46 -0700 Subject: Tloque Nahuaque Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BF697B.51E32DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am doing a research on Tloque-Nahuaque / Ipalnemohuani. Would someone know in which codex or codices this is more frequently found, and/or what is its glyph like? Thank you Susana Moraleda ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BF697B.51E32DC0 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Susana Moraleda.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Moraleda;Susana FN:Susana Moraleda EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it REV:20000128T092306Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BF697B.51E32DC0-- From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Fri Jan 28 15:33:17 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:33:17 -0700 Subject: Fwd: FW: This is real! Just send it on please Message-ID: Please do NOT send this sort of thing on or I will notify the Postal Service and the US Treasury Office. They are still in charge of enforcing laws against chain letters and Interstate Fraud. J. F. Schwaller List Owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Jan 28 21:12:23 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:12:23 -0700 Subject: Tloque Nahuaque Message-ID: Dear Susana, It's wonderful to hear from you. Both these terms are ubiquitous in Nahuatl writings. In particular ipalnemoani 's/he by whose grace living goes on' is to be found in the Bancroft huehuetlahtolli that Jim Lockhart and I published as The Art of Nahuatl Speech: the Bancroft Dialogues. Fran Karttunen ---------- >From: "marisol" >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Tloque Nahuaque >Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000, 4:56 AM > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BF697B.51E32DC0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I am doing a research on Tloque-Nahuaque / Ipalnemohuani. > > Would someone know in which codex or codices this is more frequently found, > and/or what is its glyph like? > > Thank you > Susana Moraleda > > > > ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BF697B.51E32DC0 > Content-Type: text/x-vcard; > name="Susana Moraleda.vcf" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Disposition: attachment; > filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf" > > BEGIN:VCARD > VERSION:2.1 > N:Moraleda;Susana > FN:Susana Moraleda > EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it > REV:20000128T092306Z > END:VCARD > > ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BF697B.51E32DC0-- > From malinal at evhr.net Sat Jan 29 18:49:32 2000 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:49:32 -0700 Subject: Tloque Nahuaque Message-ID: Susana Moraleda wrote > >I am doing a research on Tloque-Nahuaque / Ipalnemohuani. > >Would someone know in which codex or codices this is more frequently found, >and/or what is its glyph like? > >Thank you >Susana Moraleda > In the Florentine Codex ipalnemohuani seems to be a very abstract attribut of divinities (or of the divinity). It was so much abstract that it could be apply to the christian God: "in zan iceltzin nelli teotl ilhuicahuah in tlalticpaqueh in ipalnemohuani", the only true God, the master of the sky, the master of the earth, he by whose grace all lives. Sahagun. Colloquios. Quellenwerke zur Alten Geschichte Americas III 77 - Stuttgard 1949. I belive therefore that if the corresponding glyph existed it cannot appear in the codices of calendrical or historical content. Does it any where else? Alexis Wimmer. From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Jan 29 23:52:23 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:52:23 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl puppet play Message-ID: Jean Charlot had a career in painting that began in his native France, move= d on to Mexico in the 1920s, and concluded in Hawai'i (and points beyond in the Pacific). His interest, from the moment he arrived in Mexico, was in indigenous people, and he enjoyed deeply sympathetic friendships with Nahuas, Maya, and Native Hawaiians. During the "Mexican mural renaissance" of the 1920s he was a colleague of Rivera, Siqueiros, Orozco, Weston, Modotti, Brenner, and others. Do=F1a Luz Jim=E9nez, the greatest Nahua writer of the 20th century, was his preferred model and his cherished friend. In the 1940s Charlot returned to Mexico as a Guggenheim fellow. During the course of two years he studied Nahuatl with Roberto Barlow and wrote a puppet play in the language. The text of Charlot's puppet play, Mowentike Chalman/Los Peregrinos de Chalma and a critical appendix by me (in Spanish) now appear at the following sites: The text of the play: www2.hawaii.edu/speccoll/charlotescritos36.html My critical notes: same except for charlotescritosapp instead of charlotescritos36 The Charlot website at the University of Hawaii is beautiful and has many excellent essays as well as reproductions of his art. I recommend it. Fran Karttunen From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Jan 31 03:46:28 2000 From: campbel at indiana.edu (R. Joe Campbell) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:46:28 -0700 Subject: Jean Charlot Web Site Message-ID: I had promised a friend to send a note to y'all about the Jean Charlot Web Site and I just (hurriedly) saw that Fran's note on a puppet play refers to the same site. Just let me add my enthusiastic reaction to exploration of the site. I plan to spend some very fruitful hours there -- and those hours will make my next trip to Mexico more enjoyable, both from re-seeing paintings by Jean Charlot (and other painters) [this time with more perspective] and from locating ones that my ignorance has led me away from in the past. Please forgive if this is 100% redundant: http://www.hawaii.edu/speccoll/charlot.html I will be away from e-mail for the next several days, but I'll be back to Nahuat-l within a week. Best regards, Joe From kaa99 at dial.pipex.com Mon Jan 31 13:42:03 2000 From: kaa99 at dial.pipex.com (Nancy Boulicault) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:42:03 -0700 Subject: Diafrasismos Message-ID: Three Wishes 1) Could the learned listeros share their favourite diafrasismos in English and Nahuat? Riddles would be welcome as well. 2) Did the Mexica have a name for the coastal storms which I believe are now called Northers? Is there a description of these storms? I've read one in Life in Mexico by Calderon de la Barca but was looking for something more detailed in either English or French. 3) Does an English or French translation of Acosta Saignes, Miguel, Los Pochteca, 1945 from Acta Anthropologica 1:9-54, exist? Thank you Nancy (a long time lurker and admirer) From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Jan 31 15:45:59 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:45:59 -0700 Subject: Diafrasismos Message-ID: > Three Wishes > > 1) Could the learned listeros share their favourite diafrasismos in > English and Nahuat? Riddles would be welcome as well. Adages, difrasismos, and riddles in Nahuatl, Spanish, and English are to be found at the end of the Anderson and Dibble translation of Book 6 of the Florentine Codex. It's better to go to the source than to get these second-hand. It's surprising how many libraries have the Anderson and Dibble FC. Even i= n Honolulu, to my astonishment. For modern riddles, Jose Antonio Flores Farf=E1n and Cleofas Ramirez Celestin= o (a Nahuatl speaker from Xalitla, Guerrero, and a superb artist) have a whol= e series of publications for children based on modern riddles. Some of their publications are trilingual in Nahuatl, Spanish, and English. They are ver= y generous with distribution of their publications, which are visually gorgeous as well as excellent examples of modern Nahuatl. For more information write to Jose Antonio at: University of Arizona College of Education Language, Reading, and Culture Tucson, AZ 85721 You can also find Cleofas's art and some riddles and stories at the following children's website (also highly recommended!): kokone.com.mx The English version of the website used to work, but lately I can only get it in Spanish/Nahuatl. Fran From elazteca at collegeclub.com Mon Jan 31 18:07:50 2000 From: elazteca at collegeclub.com (yo' daddy) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:07:50 -0700 Subject: mixiotes Message-ID: Hello all @ nahuat-l: I was woundering if anyone can fill me in on a pre-hispanic food called "Mixiotes" (Ibelieve). To the best of my understanding it is a Tamal like eatable wrapped in Maguey leaves with Chicken (or other meat) and spices. If anyone out there knows more, please share the knowledge. Thank you so much... Ivan Ochoa -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why is College Club the largest and fastest growing college student site? Find out for yourself at http://www.collegeclub.com From heatherhess at hotmail.com Mon Jan 31 21:26:38 2000 From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:26:38 -0700 Subject: mixiotes Message-ID: This doesn?t exactly answer your question but yesterday at the market i discovered miel of maguey ' honey of the maguey plant? wow!!!! I will question my friends about mixiotes! i would love to learn more info about pre'hispanic comida! anyone please send recipes! Yolohtzin >From: "yo' daddy" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: mixiotes >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:08:23 -0700 > >Hello all @ nahuat-l: >I was woundering if anyone can fill me in on a pre-hispanic food called >"Mixiotes" (Ibelieve). To the best of my understanding it is a Tamal like >eatable wrapped in Maguey leaves with Chicken (or other meat) and spices. >If anyone out there knows more, please share the knowledge. Thank you so >much... >Ivan Ochoa > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Why is College Club the largest and fastest growing college student site? >Find out for yourself at http://www.collegeclub.com > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Jan 31 22:40:54 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:40:54 -0700 Subject: mixiotes Message-ID: >anyone please send recipes! > > Yolohtzin There are some excellent recipes to be found on the kokone.com.mx site. My Swedish students and I got amaranth seeds from the health food store last spring and made allegria following kokone instructions. It was a great success. Mixiotes are food steamed in the leaves of the maguey plant (metl in Nahuatl). Fran From marisol at tiscalinet.it Mon Jan 31 23:21:06 2000 From: marisol at tiscalinet.it (marisol) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:21:06 -0700 Subject: mixiotes Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BF6C49.515B17C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hola Ivan, Los mixiotes que yo conozco son la tela que cubre la penca del maguey. Esta se pone a remojar para que ablande y sea flexible (alrededor de dos horas). Se corta en cuadros de 25 cms. aproximadamente. Me parece que esta receta es de Tlaxcala (yo no sabia que era de origen prehispanico!!) Bueno, pues se tuestan los chiles anchos, se desvenan y se ponen a remojar en caldo de carne. Usando el mismo caldo se muelen junto con ajo, cebolla y almendra pelada. Se sazona con sal y oregano. Se corta la carne de carnero en pedazos pequenos y se pone a macerar en la salsa durante media hora. Se extienden las hojas de mixiote y a cada una se le pone una hoja de aguacate y la carne bien banada en salsa. Se toman las puntas del mixiote jalandolas hacia arriba y se amarran formando bolsitas. Se ponen a cocer al vapor. Perdon, pero no se darte cantidades. Espero que te sirva y te guste. Cordialmente, Susana Moraleda (una mexicana en Italia) -----Original Message----- From: yo' daddy To: Multiple recipients of list Date: luned? 31 gennaio 2000 19.12 Subject: mixiotes >Hello all @ nahuat-l: >I was woundering if anyone can fill me in on a pre-hispanic food called >"Mixiotes" (Ibelieve). To the best of my understanding it is a Tamal like >eatable wrapped in Maguey leaves with Chicken (or other meat) and spices. >If anyone out there knows more, please share the knowledge. Thank you so >much... >Ivan Ochoa > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Why is College Club the largest and fastest growing college student site? >Find out for yourself at http://www.collegeclub.com > > ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BF6C49.515B17C0 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Susana Moraleda.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Susana Moraleda.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Moraleda;Susana FN:Susana Moraleda EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:marisol at tiscalinet.it REV:20000131T231311Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BF6C49.515B17C0-- From jmsugars at pacbell.net Tue Jan 4 08:08:44 2000 From: jmsugars at pacbell.net (J. Mark Sugars) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:08:44 -0800 Subject: speaking of -tl Message-ID: Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Does anyone know how the Kwakiutl pronounce their -tl? Boas in the *Handbook of American Indian Languages* lists a lateral surd among the sounds of Kwakiutl {but he uses a capital "L" for this sound}; that sounds to me like it would be the same as the classical Nahuatl -tl. Mark Sugars Irvine, California