From lemarc at attglobal.net Sun Jul 2 10:39:30 2000 From: lemarc at attglobal.net (Marc Eisinger) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 12:39:30 +0200 Subject: Reference Message-ID: I'm looking for the issue number of IJAL where Una Canger made the review of France Karttunen's Analytical Dictionnary of Nahuatl. Thank you Marc Eisinger From William.Bright at Colorado.EDU Sun Jul 2 16:26:32 2000 From: William.Bright at Colorado.EDU (william bright) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 10:26:32 -0600 Subject: Reference In-Reply-To: <395F1BE1.35A07DCD@attglobal.net> Message-ID: 52.188-96 (1986). >I'm looking for the issue number of IJAL where >Una Canger made the review of France Karttunen's >Analytical Dictionnary of Nahuatl. >Thank you >Marc Eisinger -- William Bright Professor Emeritus of Linguistics & Anthropology, UCLA Professor Adjoint of Linguistics, University of Colorado, Boulder Editor, Written Language and Literacy Editor, Native American Placenames of the United States 1625 Mariposa Avenue, Boulder, CO 80302 Tel. 303-444-4274 FAX 303-413-0017 Email william.bright at colorado.edu William Bright's website: http://www.ncidc.org/bright -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 690 bytes Desc: not available URL: From renee at calweb.com Sun Jul 2 21:22:50 2000 From: renee at calweb.com (Renee Lopez) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 14:22:50 -0700 Subject: Cubanascnan Message-ID: Hello Everyone; I am a brand new subscriber to NAHUAT-L My interest at present is particularly on the native language of Cuba {Cubanascnan} . I am guessing that it is related to Nauhatl, however, it is only a guess. I would like some assistance in learning more about the native culture of Cuba. Am I in the right place to ask about this? Thank You, -Renee Lopez From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com Sun Jul 2 22:34:39 2000 From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 18:34:39 EDT Subject: Cubanascnan Message-ID: Hello Renee, If I remember correctly, the languages spoken in Pre-Columbian Cuba were Ciboney and different forms of Taino. I don't believe that they were related to Nahuatl. Quien sabe mas? Henry Vasquez From renee at calweb.com Tue Jul 4 01:53:45 2000 From: renee at calweb.com (Renee Lopez) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:53:45 -0700 Subject: Cubanascnan Message-ID: I am a brand new subscriber to NAHUAT-L Knowing very, very little of Nahuatl, and knowing even less about the subscribership of this list, I will take a plunge at finding something out, make a little introductory note about myself and see what happens. If the readership finds my opening post a little on the unscholarly side, I will apologize in advance. Please try to make it past the intro. There are legit (I think) questions at the bottom of this. I am a 47 year old mother of two fully grown sons and grandmother of one 3 year old. I speak more Spanish than either of my sons although I acquired what I know from my marriage to a native Spanish speaker born in Chihuahua, Chih.,Mexico. My interests in anthropology go back to my undergrad days at U.of Washington. I have maintained my anthropological interests ever since, but did not manage to get an advanced degree in it. Rather, I went into psychology after my boys were grown and earned an M.A. in Clinical Psych now using it at a children's psychiatric clinic in Sacramento, CA. My interest at present is particularly on the native language of Cuba. I recently learned that the native name for Cuba is Cubanascnan. After learning the name, I am wondering if the native language of Cubanascnan is related to Nauhatl. It is only a guess however. The ending, (-scnan) seems to my ear [sic] similar to -(atlan). Am I making a wild assumption about there possibly being a linguistic connection? Is there a phoneme in Nahuatl that sounds like Cuba? I would like some assistance in learning more about the native culture of Cuba. Am I in the right place to ask questions like this? Thank You, Renee Lopez, MA From sinne000 at uwp.edu Tue Jul 4 16:55:33 2000 From: sinne000 at uwp.edu (Timmon M Sinnen) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 11:55:33 -0500 Subject: Proper possessives Message-ID: I've found a few pages but am still learning rudimentary structure. How do you properly conjugate amongst two nouns? All I've found info for is possessive, but using his/her/its' for inanimate usually isn't correct. I'm looking for things such as the world's song, and heaven's fire. Also, if anyone could suggest any literature available offline with grammar lessons or hte like, from english to nahuatl, it'd be appreciated... thanks. -- "No one gets too old to learn a new way of being stupid." tymme at mindless.com http://scroll.to/the.magi ICQ# 1055868 *** This message printed on 100% recyclable phosphur *** From dfrye at umich.edu Wed Jul 5 13:19:39 2000 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 09:19:39 -0400 Subject: Cubanascnan In-Reply-To: <009501bfe55a$b134ad20$705dd3cf@authors> Message-ID: 1. No, there is no relation between the (extinct) Taino language of Cuba and Nahuatl. Most linguistic reconstructions have Taino languages coming from South America into the Caribbean, not from Middle America. Even if there were relationships between any Mesoamerican language and Taino, it would much more likely be with Maya (since Maya speakers were the sea-faring ones -- Nahuatl was based in the central highlands, far from the sea). There is the one example of "hurakan," the word for hurricane in both Yucatec Maya and Taino. 2. Isn't it Cubanacan, not Cubanascnan? I have never heard the latter. You see the form Cubanacan all over Cuba. 3. A good place to start would be a book about the Taino, such as Irving Rouse's. David Frye, University of Michigan From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx Wed Jul 5 17:47:18 2000 From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 12:47:18 -0500 Subject: Cubanascnan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just an observation. I think Nahuatl is based in many more places than just the central highlands. The fifty-plus native speakers of nahuatl from the Huasteca who are currently persuing their university studies in Zacatecas would certainly be quick to point this out. John Sullivan Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas on 7/5/00 8:19 AM, David L. Frye at dfrye at umich.edu wrote: > 1. No, there is no relation between the (extinct) Taino language of Cuba > and Nahuatl. Most linguistic reconstructions have Taino languages coming > from South America into the Caribbean, not from Middle America. Even if > there were relationships between any Mesoamerican language and Taino, it > would much more likely be with Maya (since Maya speakers were the > sea-faring ones -- Nahuatl was based in the central highlands, far from > the sea). There is the one example of "hurakan," the word for hurricane in > both Yucatec Maya and Taino. > > 2. Isn't it Cubanacan, not Cubanascnan? I have never heard the latter. You > see the form Cubanacan all over Cuba. > > 3. A good place to start would be a book about the Taino, such as Irving > Rouse's. > > David Frye, University of Michigan > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jul 5 18:32:13 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:32:13 -0500 Subject: Cubanascnan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe Dave was referring to its more original location. :) On Wed, 5 Jul 2000, John Sullivan wrote: > Just an observation. I think Nahuatl is based in many more places than just > the central highlands. The fifty-plus native speakers of nahuatl from the > Huasteca who are currently persuing their university studies in Zacatecas > would certainly be quick to point this out. > John Sullivan > Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas > > on 7/5/00 8:19 AM, David L. Frye at dfrye at umich.edu wrote: > > > 1. No, there is no relation between the (extinct) Taino language of Cuba > > and Nahuatl. Most linguistic reconstructions have Taino languages coming > > from South America into the Caribbean, not from Middle America. Even if > > there were relationships between any Mesoamerican language and Taino, it > > would much more likely be with Maya (since Maya speakers were the > > sea-faring ones -- Nahuatl was based in the central highlands, far from > > the sea). There is the one example of "hurakan," the word for hurricane in > > both Yucatec Maya and Taino. > > > > 2. Isn't it Cubanacan, not Cubanascnan? I have never heard the latter. You > > see the form Cubanacan all over Cuba. > > > > 3. A good place to start would be a book about the Taino, such as Irving > > Rouse's. > > > > David Frye, University of Michigan > > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "So, who you gonna believe, me or your own eyes?" -Chico Marx ******************************************************************************* From renee at calweb.com Thu Jul 6 15:15:17 2000 From: renee at calweb.com (Renee Lopez) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 08:15:17 -0700 Subject: Cubanascnan Message-ID: Thank You David...... -----Original Message----- From: David L. Frye To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Date: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 6:44 AM Subject: Re: Cubanascnan >1. No, there is no relation between the (extinct) Taino language of Cuba >and Nahuatl. Most linguistic reconstructions have Taino languages coming >from South America into the Caribbean, not from Middle America. Even if >there were relationships between any Mesoamerican language and Taino, it >would much more likely be with Maya (since Maya speakers were the >sea-faring ones -- Nahuatl was based in the central highlands, far from >the sea). There is the one example of "hurakan," the word for hurricane in >both Yucatec Maya and Taino. OK Taino it is. I appreciate that you took the time to write this. >2. Isn't it Cubanacan, not Cubanascnan? I have never heard the latter. You >see the form Cubanacan all over Cuba. I'm not sure. I found the other version on the Internet (mis-information highway?). One of them did say it was from Microsoft Encarta 97, "Cuba/History/". The other one cited no sources whatsoever. So credibility is questionable. I am not so sure if I am perpetuating a typo or if there really is a "Cubanscnan". Less than erudite scholarship, perhaps borderline plagiariasm "cut and pasted" from Internet sources as the computer age has enabled people to do, can get irritating. Can't it? >3. A good place to start would be a book about the Taino, such as Irving >Rouse's. Sounds like a good place to start. Thank You again for the reference. > >David Frye, University of Michigan Renee Hudgins-Lopez, Somewhere in Sacramento From hgutti at yahoo.com Thu Jul 6 23:08:30 2000 From: hgutti at yahoo.com (henry gutierrez) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:08:30 -0700 Subject: Xocolotl Message-ID: Hi there, Could you help me??? I've found the word "Xocolotl", What does it mean?? I found "xocolatl" that means "chocolate", but I'm almost sure that mean is wrong thanks a lot!! Henry You have incorrect info regarding the server. I just sent you instructions. The correct address to post a message is: nahuat-l at majordomo.umt.edu to subscribe use: majordomo at majordomo.umt.edu John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From roman_surma at mail.ru Fri Jul 7 09:55:02 2000 From: roman_surma at mail.ru (Roman A. Surma) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:55:02 +0400 Subject: =?koi8-r?Q?=F3antares_Mexicanos?= Message-ID: Dear all! I am intresting in Nahuatl poetry for some years. Of course, I've found some excerpts in the books about Aztec culture, some in the Net. The problem is that I can not obtain sufficiently large corpus of texts to read. Is there a kind of public domain archive of such texts in the Internet? (I have tried 'Project Gutenberg' et al., but in vain. Also I can not order the book from bookstore site like 'Amazon.com', because having a credit card in Russia is too expensive pleasure). Can anybody help me in my searching? Roman Surma, From n8upb at yahoo.com Fri Jul 7 14:08:17 2000 From: n8upb at yahoo.com (Asencion Garcia) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 07:08:17 -0700 Subject: óantares_Mexicanos Message-ID: --- "Roman A. Surma" wrote: > Dear all! > > I am intresting in Nahuatl poetry for some years. Of > course, I've found some > excerpts in the books about Aztec culture, some in > the Net. The problem is > that I can not obtain sufficiently large corpus of > texts to read. > > Is there a kind of public domain archive of such > texts in the Internet? (I > have tried 'Project Gutenberg' et al., but in vain. > Also I can not order the > book from bookstore site like 'Amazon.com', because > having a credit card in > Russia is too expensive pleasure). > > Can anybody help me in my searching? > > Roman Surma, ===================================================== Dobi Roman ! Well my friend in Russia, try this site: http://www.indians.org/welker/aztec.htm If that does not work just try: www. aztecs.com it should open a variety of pages, thne look for the nahuat'l language,, Good luck Dobridanya..... Cuitlahuac A. Garcia > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From n8upb at yahoo.com Fri Jul 7 14:39:40 2000 From: n8upb at yahoo.com (Asencion Garcia) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 07:39:40 -0700 Subject: Xocolotl Message-ID: --- henry gutierrez wrote: > Hi there, > > Could you help me??? > > I've found the word "Xocolotl", What does it mean?? > I found "xocolatl" that means "chocolate", but I'm > almost sure that mean is wrong > > thanks a lot!! > > Henry ================================================= Yup, it means Chocolate....It is a stolen word from the Nahuat'l language, and is only one of many. Tamale, Tortilla, Ocelot, etc..... there are many that are in the English language and other languages....I guess Nahuat'l is universal... Cuitlahuac A. Garcia > > > > > > You have incorrect info regarding the server. I > just > sent you > instructions. The correct address to post a message > is: > nahuat-l at majordomo.umt.edu > > to subscribe use: > majordomo at majordomo.umt.edu > > > > John Frederick Schwaller > > schwallr at selway.umt.edu > Associate Provost > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! > Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From jdebuen at caliente.com.mx Fri Jul 7 17:51:13 2000 From: jdebuen at caliente.com.mx (Jorge de Buen) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 10:51:13 -0700 Subject: Tocayo Message-ID: Tijuana, B. C., 7 de julio de 2000 Dear friends, I'm back for a while, after several months, and I can not recall If we already discussed the etymology of the Spanish word _tocayo._ There is some uncertainty about the origin, according to Corominas (a non-accented version is at the bottom of the page): “... es que no hay en náhuatl un adjetivo que pudiera servir de base a _tocayo,_ ni se ve forma concreta de derivarlo del verbo _tocayotia_ o del sustantivo _tocaytl;_ es cierto que A. de Molina trae _tocaye_ ‘persona que tiene nombre, o claro en fama y en honra, o encumbrado en dignidadÂ’, pero esto equivale evidentemente a ‘renombradoÂ’, ‘afamadoÂ’ y de ahí no saldría _tocayo._ [...] Ante los hechos citados, no se puede descartar el que _tocayo_ venga en una forma u otra de algún miembro de esta familia léxica azteca, pero hace falta demostrarlo mejor, y habría que empezar por dar pruebas de que el vocablo se empleó primero en Méjico que en España y en América del Sur...” The other candidate is the Latin ritual expression "Ubi tu Caius, ibi ego Caia" (If you are Caio, I'm Caia). Corominas says: “En apoyo de esta idea observo que los dos ejemplos más antiguos de _tocayo_ nos presentan a un hombre y una mujer que se dan recíprocamente el nombre de _tocayo_ y _tocaya,_ y añado que el ambiente del teatro madrileño era propicio a toda clase de retruécanos, sin excluir los alusivos a la educación clásica: recuérdese el probable origen de _tertuliano_ y _TERTULIA,_ voces teatrales también y fundadas en una especie de chiste clásico.” One of the most important objections to the Nahualt origin is that the word _tocayo,_ in the Spanish literature, had it first appearance in Spain (1820). What do you think? (I hope that the accented characters don't make a mess out of this *mess*age.) Jorge de Buen U. jdebuen at caliente.com.mx Tijuana, México --------------- "... es que no hay en nahuatl un adjetivo que pudiera servir de base a _tocayo,_ ni se ve forma concreta de derivarlo del verbo _tocayotia_ o del sustantivo _tocaytl;_ es cierto que A. de Molina trae _tocaye_ 'persona que tiene nombre, o claro en fama y en honra, o encumbrado en dignidad', pero esto equivale evidentemente a 'renombrado', 'afamado' y de ahi no saldria _tocayo._ [...] Ante los hechos citados, no se puede descartar el que _tocayo_ venga en una forma u otra de algun miembro de esta familia lexica azteca, pero hace falta demostrarlo mejor, y habria que empezar por dar pruebas de que el vocablo se empleo primero en Mejico que en Espan~a y en America del Sur..." "En apoyo de esta idea observo que los dos ejemplos mas antiguos de _tocayo_ nos presentan a un hombre y una mujer que se dan reciprocamente el nombre de _tocayo_ y _tocaya,_ y an~ado que el ambiente del teatro madrilen~o era propicio a toda clase de retruecanos, sin excluir los alusivos a la educacion clasica: recuerdese el probable origen de _tertuliano_ y _TERTULIA,_ voces teatrales tambien y fundadas en una especie de chiste clasico." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Jul 7 18:50:08 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:50:08 -0500 Subject: Xocolotl In-Reply-To: <20000707143940.23495.qmail@web120.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: I believe that the nahuat-l or AZTLAN archives has an extensive discussion on the origin of word "chocolate." This exchange of ideas occurred about two years ago. Michael On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Asencion Garcia wrote: > > --- henry gutierrez wrote: > > Hi there, > > > > Could you help me??? > > > > I've found the word "Xocolotl", What does it mean?? > > I found "xocolatl" that means "chocolate", but I'm > > almost sure that mean is wrong > > > > thanks a lot!! > > > > Henry > > ================================================= > Yup, it means Chocolate....It is a stolen word from > the Nahuat'l language, and is only one of many. > > Tamale, Tortilla, Ocelot, etc..... > > there are many that are in the English language and > other languages....I guess Nahuat'l is universal... > > Cuitlahuac A. Garcia > > > > > > > > > > > > You have incorrect info regarding the server. I > > just > > sent you > > instructions. The correct address to post a message > > is: > > nahuat-l at majordomo.umt.edu > > > > to subscribe use: > > majordomo at majordomo.umt.edu > > > > > > > > John Frederick Schwaller > > > > schwallr at selway.umt.edu > > Associate Provost > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! > > Messenger. > > http://im.yahoo.com/ > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "So, who you gonna believe, me or your own eyes?" -Chico Marx ******************************************************************************* From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Fri Jul 7 21:02:01 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 15:02:01 -0600 Subject: Nezahualcoyotl Message-ID: >Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:45:04 -0400 >Reply-To: Johncarr439 at cs.com >Sender: Pre-Columbian History >From: John Carr >Subject: ME: Nezahualcoyotl >To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU > > >This Aztec poem is engraved in stone above a door in the courtyard >of the Museo Natl. de Antropologia in Mexico, DF and was the frontpiece >of Eric Wolf's _Sons of the Shaking Earth_ >_________________________________________ > > > "All the earth is a grave and nothing escapes it; > nothing is so perfect that it does not descend into > its tomb. > Rivers, rivulets, fountains and waters flow, > but never return to their joyful beginnings; > Anxiously they hasten on to the vast realms of the > rain god. > As they widen their banks, they also fashion > the sad urn of their burial. > Filled are the bowels of the earth with pestilential > dust > once flesh and bone, once animate bodies of men > who sat upon thrones, decided cases, presided in > council, > commanded armies, conquered provinces, possessed > treasure, destroyed temples, > exulted in their pride, majesty, fortune, praise and > power. > > Vanished are these glories, just as the fearful smoke > vanishes > that belches forth from the infernal fires of > Popocatepetl. > Nothing recalls them but the written page." > > ~Nezahualcoyotl > King of Texcoco (1431-72) > > jc > >note: Fernando Horcasitas P. on seeing it above the museum > door once remarked to me "Its a fake, isn't it?" It is true > Mexico once enjoyed a cottage industry faking Nahuatl > poetry and yes, Fernandotzin studied under Prof. Garibay. > Has anyone seen the source ms for the above? John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From jdebuen at caliente.com.mx Fri Jul 7 22:59:34 2000 From: jdebuen at caliente.com.mx (Jorge de Buen) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 15:59:34 -0700 Subject: RV: Tocayo Message-ID: Tijuana, B. C., 7 de julio de 2000 Dear friends, I'm back for a while, after several months, and I can not recall If we already discussed the etymology of the Spanish word _tocayo._ There is some uncertainty about the origin, according to Corominas (a non-accented version is at the bottom of the page): “... es que no hay en náhuatl un adjetivo que pudiera servir de base a _tocayo,_ ni se ve forma concreta de derivarlo del verbo _tocayotia_ o del sustantivo _tocaytl;_ es cierto que A. de Molina trae _tocaye_ ‘persona que tiene nombre, o claro en fama y en honra, o encumbrado en dignidadÂ’, pero esto equivale evidentemente a ‘renombradoÂ’, ‘afamadoÂ’ y de ahí no saldría _tocayo._ [...] Ante los hechos citados, no se puede descartar el que _tocayo_ venga en una forma u otra de algún miembro de esta familia léxica azteca, pero hace falta demostrarlo mejor, y habría que empezar por dar pruebas de que el vocablo se empleó primero en Méjico que en España y en América del Sur...” The other candidate is the Latin ritual expression "Ubi tu Caius, ibi ego Caia" (If you are Caio, I'm Caia). Corominas says: “En apoyo de esta idea observo que los dos ejemplos más antiguos de _tocayo_ nos presentan a un hombre y una mujer que se dan recíprocamente el nombre de _tocayo_ y _tocaya,_ y añado que el ambiente del teatro madrileño era propicio a toda clase de retruécanos, sin excluir los alusivos a la educación clásica: recuérdese el probable origen de _tertuliano_ y _TERTULIA,_ voces teatrales también y fundadas en una especie de chiste clásico.” One of the most important objections to the Nahualt origin is that the word _tocayo,_ in the Spanish literature, had it first appearance in Spain (1820). What do you think? (I hope that the accented characters don't make a mess out of this *mess*age.) Jorge de Buen U. jdebuen at caliente.com.mx Tijuana, México --------------- "... es que no hay en nahuatl un adjetivo que pudiera servir de base a _tocayo,_ ni se ve forma concreta de derivarlo del verbo _tocayotia_ o del sustantivo _tocaytl;_ es cierto que A. de Molina trae _tocaye_ 'persona que tiene nombre, o claro en fama y en honra, o encumbrado en dignidad', pero esto equivale evidentemente a 'renombrado', 'afamado' y de ahi no saldria _tocayo._ [...] Ante los hechos citados, no se puede descartar el que _tocayo_ venga en una forma u otra de algun miembro de esta familia lexica azteca, pero hace falta demostrarlo mejor, y habria que empezar por dar pruebas de que el vocablo se empleo primero en Mejico que en Espan~a y en America del Sur..." "En apoyo de esta idea observo que los dos ejemplos mas antiguos de _tocayo_ nos presentan a un hombre y una mujer que se dan reciprocamente el nombre de _tocayo_ y _tocaya,_ y an~ado que el ambiente del teatro madrilen~o era propicio a toda clase de retruecanos, sin excluir los alusivos a la educacion clasica: recuerdese el probable origen de _tertuliano_ y _TERTULIA,_ voces teatrales tambien y fundadas en una especie de chiste clasico." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CCBtlevine at aol.com Fri Jul 7 23:42:52 2000 From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 19:42:52 -0400 Subject: RV: Tocayo Message-ID: In a message dated Fri, 7 Jul 2000 7:01:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Jorge de Buen" writes: << Tijuana, B. C., 7 de julio de 2000 tocayo, in the Spanish literature, had it first appearance in Spain (1820). I reviewed Simeon's Dictionary and Sullivans Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar. Sullivan uses the word "tocayo" as an adjective meaning renown or name from tocaitl, name. Tocaitl seems to have as many meanings in Nahuatl as name has in English. A person of renown has made a name for him/herself. Sullivan takes a quote for her illustration from the Florentine Codex Vol X, p.15 lines 12, 13. It seems reasonable to think that a person who shares your name is renowned or famous because you are well known. Tocayo! Famoso! From jdebuen at caliente.com.mx Sat Jul 8 00:31:05 2000 From: jdebuen at caliente.com.mx (Jorge de Buen) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:31:05 -0700 Subject: Tocayo Message-ID: Tijuana, B. C., 7 de julio de 2000 CCBtlevine wrote: "Sullivan uses the word 'tocayo' as an adjective meaning renown or name from tocaitl, name. Tocaitl seems to have as many meanings in Nahuatl as name has in English. A person of renown has made a name for him/herself. Sullivan takes a quote for her illustration from the Florentine Codex Vol X, p.15 lines 12, 13. It seems reasonable to think that a person who shares your name is renowned or famous because you are well known. Tocayo! Famoso!" More to the point: In the vocabulary of the Florentine Codex, compiled by Joe, I found the word _tocayoh_ 'renowned.' Also, I am wondering if it is possible to form a word like _tocayiuh_ from _tocaitl_ 'name' and _iuh_ 'as,' 'like,' 'as if.' But it looks much more like a verb. Saludos. Jorge de Buen U. jdebuen at caliente.com.mx Tijuana, México -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n8upb at yahoo.com Sat Jul 8 02:46:10 2000 From: n8upb at yahoo.com (Asencion Garcia) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 19:46:10 -0700 Subject: Nezahualcoyotl Message-ID: --- "John F. Schwaller" wrote: > > >Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:45:04 -0400 > >Reply-To: Johncarr439 at cs.com > >Sender: Pre-Columbian History > > >From: John Carr > >Subject: ME: Nezahualcoyotl > >To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU > > > > > >This Aztec poem is engraved in stone above a door > in the courtyard > >of the Museo Natl. de Antropologia in Mexico, DF > and was the frontpiece > >of Eric Wolf's _Sons of the Shaking Earth_ > >_________________________________________ > > > > > > "All the earth is a grave and nothing escapes > it; > > nothing is so perfect that it does not > descend into > > its tomb. > > Rivers, rivulets, fountains and waters flow, > > but never return to their joyful > beginnings; > > Anxiously they hasten on to the vast realms of > the > > rain god. > > As they widen their banks, they also fashion > > the sad urn of their burial. > > Filled are the bowels of the earth with > pestilential > > dust > > once flesh and bone, once animate bodies of men > > who sat upon thrones, decided cases, > presided in > > council, > > commanded armies, conquered provinces, > possessed > > treasure, destroyed temples, > > exulted in their pride, majesty, fortune, > praise and > > power. > > > > Vanished are these glories, just as the fearful > smoke > > vanishes > > that belches forth from the infernal fires of > > Popocatepetl. > > Nothing recalls them but the written page." > > > > ~Nezahualcoyotl > > King of Texcoco > 1431-72 > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail � Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From n8upb at yahoo.com Sat Jul 8 02:55:18 2000 From: n8upb at yahoo.com (Asencion Garcia) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 19:55:18 -0700 Subject: Nezahualcoyotl Message-ID: --- Asencion Garcia wrote: > > --- > > > > > >This Aztec poem is engraved in stone above a door > > in the courtyard > > >of the Museo Natl. de Antropologia in Mexico, DF > > and was the frontpiece > > >of Eric Wolf's _Sons of the Shaking Earth_ > > >_________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > "All the earth is a grave and nothing escapes > > it; > > > nothing is so perfect that it does not > > descend into > > > its tomb. > > > Rivers, rivulets, fountains and waters flow, > > > but never return to their joyful > > beginnings; > > > Anxiously they hasten on to the vast realms of > > the > > > rain god. > > > As they widen their banks, they also fashion > > > the sad urn of their burial. > > > Filled are the bowels of the earth with > > pestilential > > > dust > > > once flesh and bone, once animate bodies of > men > > > who sat upon thrones, decided cases, > > presided in > > > council, > > > commanded armies, conquered provinces, > > possessed > > > treasure, destroyed temples, > > > exulted in their pride, majesty, fortune, > > praise and > > > power. > > > > > > Vanished are these glories, just as the > fearful > > smoke > > > vanishes > > > that belches forth from the infernal fires of > > > Popocatepetl. > > > Nothing recalls them but the written page." > > > > > > ~Nezahualcoyotl > > > King of > Texcoco > > > 1431-72 > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get Yahoo! Mail � Free email you can access from > anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail � Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From micc at home.com Sat Jul 8 05:08:24 2000 From: micc at home.com (mario) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:08:24 -0700 Subject: Tocayo Message-ID: Could the basis of the word be "to" (our) + "Cayotl" (essence or nationhood)??? i.e. "Our being"??? Jorge de Buen wrote: > Tijuana, B. C., 7 de julio de 2000 > > CCBtlevine wrote: > > "Sullivan uses the word 'tocayo' as an adjective meaning renown or > name from tocaitl, name.Tocaitl seems to have as many meanings in > Nahuatl as name has in English.A person of renown has made a name for > him/herself.Sullivan takes a quote for her illustration from the > Florentine Codex Vol X, p.15 lines 12, 13.It seems reasonable to think > that a person who shares your name is renowned or famous because you > are well known.Tocayo! Famoso!" > > More to the point: In the vocabulary of the Florentine Codex, compiled > by Joe, I found the word _tocayoh_ 'renowned.' Also, I am wondering if > it is possible to form a word like _tocayiuh_ from _tocaitl_ 'name' > and _iuh_ 'as,' 'like,' 'as if.' But it looks much more like a verb. > > Saludos. > > Jorge de Buen U. > > jdebuen at caliente.com.mx > > Tijuana, México > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Jul 8 20:34:21 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 16:34:21 -0400 Subject: Tocayo Message-ID: To:ca:yoh 'one's namesake' is derived from to:ca:itl in the following way: The stem of to:ca:itl is to:ca:- To this is added the suffix -yoh. When -yoh is added to a noun stem, it forms a noun meaning 'something or someone invested with the quality of (whatever the noun is)' So from eztli 'blood' one gets ezyoh (or ezzoh) meaning either 'something bloody' or 'someone bloodthirsty.' >From zoquitl 'clay' one gets zoquiyoh 'something or someone of clay.' The difrasismo: in zoquiyoh, in tla:lloh (< tla:l-yoh) refers to one's earthly body, rather like what is said at Christian interment services, "Ashes to ashes, dust to dust." So you can see how to:ca:yoh means 'someone who has [someone else's] name.' There is another derivational suffix -yo:tl which forms abstract nouns such as tla:lticpaccayo:tl 'mundane matters, that having to do with live on earth.' >From to:ca:itl one can form to:ca:yo:tl 'fame, reputation.' When this is possessed, it has the form -to:ca:yo (as in i:to:ca:yo 'his/her fame') In spelling these two different derivations are easy to confuse. By the way, if a word is possessed (with to- 'our' for instance), it cannot end is -tl. ---------- From: mario To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Subject: Re: Tocayo Date: Sat, Jul 8, 2000, 1:08 AM Could the basis of the word be "to" (our) + "Cayotl" (essence or nationhood)??? i.e. "Our being"??? Jorge de Buen wrote: Tijuana, B. C., 7 de julio de 2000 CCBtlevine wrote: "Sullivan uses the word 'tocayo' as an adjective meaning renown or name from tocaitl, name.Tocaitl seems to have as many meanings in Nahuatl as name has in English.A person of renown has made a name for him/herself.Sullivan takes a quote for her illustration from the Florentine Codex Vol X, p.15 lines 12, 13.It seems reasonable to think that a person who shares your name is renowned or famous because you are well known.Tocayo! Famoso!" More to the point: In the vocabulary of the Florentine Codex, compiled by Joe, I found the word _tocayoh_ 'renowned.' Also, I am wondering if it is possible to form a word like _tocayiuh_ from _tocaitl_ 'name' and _iuh_ 'as,' 'like,' 'as if.' But it looks much more like a verb. Saludos. Jorge de Buen U. jdebuen at caliente.com.mx Tijuana, México -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micc at home.com Sun Jul 9 04:11:07 2000 From: micc at home.com (mario) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 21:11:07 -0700 Subject: Tocayo Message-ID: Dear Frances, Thanks for the great, lucid, and easy to follow explanation!!!!!! mario e. aguilar www.aguila-blanca.com Frances Karttunen wrote: > To:ca:yoh 'one's namesake' is derived from to:ca:itl in the following > way: > > The stem of to:ca:itl is to:ca:- > > To this is added the suffix -yoh. When -yoh is added to a noun stem, > it forms a noun meaning 'something or someone invested with the > quality of (whatever the noun is)' > > So from eztli 'blood' one gets ezyoh (or ezzoh) meaning either > 'something bloody' or 'someone bloodthirsty.' > > >From zoquitl 'clay' one gets zoquiyoh 'something or someone of clay.' > > The difrasismo: in zoquiyoh, in tla:lloh (< tla:l-yoh) refers to one's > earthly body, rather like what is said at Christian interment > services, "Ashes to ashes, dust to dust." > > So you can see how to:ca:yoh means 'someone who has [someone else's] > name.' > > There is another derivational suffix -yo:tl which forms abstract nouns > such as tla:lticpaccayo:tl 'mundane matters, that having to do with > live on earth.' > > >From to:ca:itl one can form to:ca:yo:tl 'fame, reputation.' When > this is possessed, it has the form -to:ca:yo (as in i:to:ca:yo > 'his/her fame') > > In spelling these two different derivations are easy to confuse. > > By the way, if a word is possessed (with to- 'our' for instance), it > cannot end is -tl. > > ---------- > From: mario > To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu > Subject: Re: Tocayo > Date: Sat, Jul 8, 2000, 1:08 AM > > > > Could the basis of the word be "to" (our) + "Cayotl" > (essence or nationhood)??? > > i.e. "Our being"??? > > Jorge de Buen wrote: > > Tijuana, B. C., 7 de julio de 2000 > CCBtlevine wrote: > > "Sullivan uses the word 'tocayo' as an adjective > meaning renown or name from tocaitl, name.Tocaitl > seems to have as many meanings in Nahuatl as name > has in English.A person of renown has made a name > for him/herself.Sullivan takes a quote for her > illustration from the Florentine Codex Vol X, p.15 > lines 12, 13.It seems reasonable to think that a > person who shares your name is renowned or famous > because you are well known.Tocayo! Famoso!" > > More to the point: In the vocabulary of the > Florentine Codex, compiled by Joe, I found the > word _tocayoh_ 'renowned.' Also, I am wondering if > it is possible to form a word like _tocayiuh_ from > _tocaitl_ 'name' and _iuh_ 'as,' 'like,' 'as if.' > But it looks much more like a verb. > > Saludos. > > Jorge de Buen U. > > jdebuen at caliente.com.mx > > Tijuana, México > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at nantucket.net Sun Jul 9 18:32:04 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:32:04 -0400 Subject: Reference Message-ID: Dear Marc, I have been searching through my files for a copy of Una's review and haven't found it. Did you locate it on Bill Bright's web site? Fran ---------- >From: Marc Eisinger >To: Nahuat-l >Subject: Reference >Date: Sun, Jul 2, 2000, 6:39 AM > > I'm looking for the issue number of IJAL where > Una Canger made the review of France Karttunen's > Analytical Dictionnary of Nahuatl. > Thank you > Marc Eisinger > > > From William.Bright at Colorado.EDU Sun Jul 9 19:11:44 2000 From: William.Bright at Colorado.EDU (william bright) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:11:44 -0600 Subject: Reference In-Reply-To: <200007091834.OAA01393@nantucket.net> Message-ID: hi fran; the reference isn't on my website, but a couple of years ago, for my own use, i made an index to recent years of IJAL - since david rood and the u/chi press were uninterested in doing so. then the press said they would put my index on their website, but they haven't done anything about it. so i'll probably put it on my own website sometime soon. all best; bill -- William Bright Professor Emeritus of Linguistics & Anthropology, UCLA Professor Adjoint of Linguistics, University of Colorado, Boulder Editor, Written Language and Literacy Editor, Native American Placenames of the United States 1625 Mariposa Avenue, Boulder, CO 80302 Tel. 303-444-4274 FAX 303-413-0017 Email william.bright at colorado.edu William Bright's website: http://www.ncidc.org/bright From carlossn at ui.boe.es Mon Jul 10 07:15:50 2000 From: carlossn at ui.boe.es (Carlos Santamarina) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:15:50 +0200 Subject: Tocayo... Message-ID: Amigos: De acuerdo en parte con la explicación de Frances de que "to:ca:yoh means 'someone who has [someone else's] name.", pero entiendo que ha de traducirse como "el que tiene nombre" (de ahí, "renombrado, famoso"), pero no veo la relación con la circunstancia de que dos personas compartan un mismo nombre. Sigue sin quedar claro, para mí. Respecto a la interesante aportación de Jorge de Buen, sólo decir que he encontrado el término en cuestión en una fecha anterior a la que das ("the word _tocayo,_ in the Spanish literature, had it first appearance in Spain (1820).") en el Diccionario de Autoridades (1726-1739) ya aparece: "TOCAYO, YA. adj. Lo mismo que Colombroño." "COLOMBROÑO. f.m. El que tiene el mismo nombre que otro." Este diccionario, y el de la Real Academia de la Lengua Española, puede consultarse en: < www.rae.es - Recursos - Biblioteca Virtual > A seguir bien... -- Carlos Santamarina ------------------------------ ------------------------------ From jessh827 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 11 00:14:27 2000 From: jessh827 at yahoo.com (J H) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:14:27 -0700 Subject: Cubanascnan Message-ID: The original location of the Uto-Aztecan languages was the US-Mexico border area. The Mexica and other Nahuatl-speaking peoples even remembered, when they were were honest, about how their ancestors had been desert nomads out of the north. Jess Harvey --- Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Maybe Dave was referring to its more original > location. :) > > > > On Wed, 5 Jul 2000, John Sullivan wrote: > > > Just an observation. I think Nahuatl is based in > many more places than just > > the central highlands. The fifty-plus native > speakers of nahuatl from the > > Huasteca who are currently persuing their > university studies in Zacatecas > > would certainly be quick to point this out. > > John Sullivan > > Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas > > > > on 7/5/00 8:19 AM, David L. Frye at > dfrye at umich.edu wrote: > > > > > 1. No, there is no relation between the > (extinct) Taino language of Cuba > > > and Nahuatl. Most linguistic reconstructions > have Taino languages coming > > > from South America into the Caribbean, not from > Middle America. Even if > > > there were relationships between any > Mesoamerican language and Taino, it > > > would much more likely be with Maya (since Maya > speakers were the > > > sea-faring ones -- Nahuatl was based in the > central highlands, far from > > > the sea). There is the one example of "hurakan," > the word for hurricane in > > > both Yucatec Maya and Taino. > > > > > > 2. Isn't it Cubanacan, not Cubanascnan? I have > never heard the latter. You > > > see the form Cubanacan all over Cuba. > > > > > > 3. A good place to start would be a book about > the Taino, such as Irving > > > Rouse's. > > > > > > David Frye, University of Michigan > > > > > > > > > > Michael McCafferty > 307 Memorial Hall > Indiana University > Bloomington, Indiana > 47405 > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > ******************************************************************************* > "So, who you gonna believe, > me or your own eyes?" > > -Chico Marx > > ******************************************************************************* > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail � Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From fjgs at servidor.unam.mx Tue Jul 11 03:00:56 2000 From: fjgs at servidor.unam.mx (Ehecatecolotl) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 21:00:56 -0600 Subject: Tocayo Message-ID: Re: Tocayo-snip- >By the way, if a word is possessed (with to- 'our' for instance), it cannot end is -tl. Just a brief remark on Frances brilliant comment. Wouldn´t tonacayotl (nuestro sustento) vs tonacayo (nuestra carne) be an exception to the afore mentioned? From pkurtboke at pop.hotkey.net.au Tue Jul 11 07:18:26 2000 From: pkurtboke at pop.hotkey.net.au (P. Kurtboke) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:18:26 +1000 Subject: address change In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20000620092236.00bc6e20@selway.umt.edu> Message-ID: John, sorry to bother you about this. I'm moving back to Europe soon and this e-mail account is about to be disactivated. Would it be possible to direct messages to my hotmail account ? Many thanks Petek From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Tue Jul 11 10:41:48 2000 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:41:48 GMT Subject: Tocayo Message-ID: Someone wrote:- > By the way, if a word is possessed (with to- 'our' for instance), it cannot > end is -tl Ehecatecolotl wrote:- > Just a brief remark on Frances brilliant comment. > Wouldn´t tonacayotl (nuestro sustento) vs tonacayo (nuestra carne) be an > exception to the aforementioned? Are there any nouns whose STEM ends in -tl? What happens to them in unpossessed singulars where most nouns add -tli? How is double {tl} usually written? From karttu at nantucket.net Tue Jul 11 10:56:04 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 06:56:04 -0400 Subject: Tocayo Message-ID: >> Wouldn´t tonacayotl (nuestro sustento) vs tonacayo (nuestra carne) be an >> exception to the aforementioned? No, this is not an exception. It is a misanalysis. To:naca:yo:tl is derived from to:na, and the initial /to:/ is not a possessive prefix. There is a vowel-length difference. To:naca:yo:tl means 'daily sustenance' not 'our sustenance.' Tonacayo 'our own flesh' is derived from naca-tl. When it is inalienably possessed, it adds the possessive prefix to the front and the suffix -yo to the end. Without the -yo, tonaca means 'our meat' in the sense of meat one has bought in the market. About stem-final -tl, the Nahuatl original source of the word metate is metlatl. When possessed, it drops not only the -tl, but also the /a/ preceding the -tl. (This dropping of vowels along with the absolutive suffix to form the possessed stem applies to quite a few nouns ending in -a and -i.) So 'my metate' is nometl. No occasion arises to add another -tl to this form. In compounds, metlatl doesn't drop its final vowel, as in metlapi:lli 'mano de metate.' There has been a further question about deriving 'fame' from 'namesake'. Let me reiterate that the derivations are different. The derived word meaning 'namesake' is made with the suffix -yoh, and the derived word meaning 'fame' is made with the different suffix -yo:-tl. Only the traditional spelling, which does not indicate vowel length and saltillo (h), obscures the fact that these are different. I'd like to urge people with questions along these lines to consult either J. Richard Andrews's Introduction to Classical Nahuatl or Joe Campbell's and my Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar. Debating them on Nahuat-L and restating on-line what is available in print isn't the best use of time. It also leads to dissemination of ideas that don't stand up to scrutiny--a major problem for Nahuat-L users, just as it is for anyone seeking information via internet. For accessibility of the Foundation Course, go to www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL. Then click on "Enter here for the Gateway to Nahuatl links." From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Tue Jul 11 14:07:16 2000 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 14:07:16 GMT Subject: To P.Kurtboke Message-ID: I am extremely sorry to have to inflict this on the whole list. To Mr.P.Kurtboke: Thank you for your message. When I replied to it, some email relayer bounced my reply back to me with a fault remark, as below. I sent the message again, and the same happened again. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date sent: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:54:13 +1000 (EST) From: MAILER-DAEMON at hotkey.net.au (Mail Delivery System) Subject: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender To: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk This is the Postfix program at host mail.hotkey.net.au. I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned below could not be delivered to one or more destinations. For further assistance, please contact If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own text from the message returned below. The Postfix program : mail for pop.hotkey.net.au loops back to myself From heatherhess at hotmail.com Tue Jul 11 15:51:33 2000 From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:51:33 PDT Subject: Directions Message-ID: Could someone please tell me the correct colors for the Aztlan directions - and as well the perspective the directions are laid out! I have seen references to the directions and colors and they differ immensely! What is the correct source for this! Thanks! Yolohtzin ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From malinal at evhr.net Tue Jul 11 19:19:12 2000 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:19:12 +0200 Subject: nahuatl nouns with specific object prefixe Message-ID: Remi Simeon in his ‘Dictionnaire de la langue nahuatlÂ’ listed some deverbal nouns whose verbal stem have kept a specific object prefixe ‘–qui-‘, for instance nouns such as QUIXNENEUILILIZTLI, for ‘qu-i:xnehnehui-liztliÂ’, ‘likenessÂ’ or QUITEMMATILIZTLI for ‘qui-te:mmati-liztliÂ’, ‘negligenceÂ’. Theese nouns donÂ’t appear in the ‘Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellanaÂ’ from Molina and this formation seems to be irregular. What is happened ? Can such forms appear in texts ? In Cod.Flor. is QUITE:MMATITL, ‘a neglectful oneÂ’ to find, a form with absolutive suffixe and direct-object prefixe. Are some rules for these irregularities ? Any help would be very useful. Thankfully. Alexis. From scalderon at spin.com.mx Wed Jul 12 21:53:46 2000 From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:53:46 -0500 Subject: my page Message-ID: I have updated my page on nahuatl http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/nahuatl.html Salvador Calderón From melesan at pacbell.net Thu Jul 13 00:15:26 2000 From: melesan at pacbell.net (melesan at pacbell.net) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:15:26 -0700 Subject: my page Message-ID: Hello Salvador, Thank you for sharing your webpage. 2 things I'd like to discuss with you: How would one say teacher in Nahuatl. I know calmecac was the training venue for eagle and jaguar trainees. #2 take a look at some of the poetry/art in Spanish my high school students at Santa Ana High School put together. Any criticism would be appreciated. Not honor students, just regular students of all levels in Spanish for Spanish speakers. http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/calmexica?d&.flabel=fld3&.src=ph http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/calmexica?d&.flabel=fld1&.src=ph Translations to English will be put up later. Take care, Mel Sanchez Salvador Calderón wrote: > I have updated my page on nahuatl > > http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/nahuatl.html > > Salvador Calderón From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at Thu Jul 13 05:51:14 2000 From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 07:51:14 +0200 Subject: my page Message-ID: teacher=temachtiani melesan at pacbell.net schrieb: > Hello Salvador, > > Thank you for sharing your webpage. 2 things I'd like to discuss with > you: > > How would one say teacher in Nahuatl. I know calmecac was the training > venue for eagle and jaguar trainees. > > #2 take a look at some of the poetry/art in Spanish my high school > students at Santa Ana High School put together. Any criticism would be > appreciated. Not honor students, just regular students of all levels in > Spanish for Spanish speakers. > > http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/calmexica?d&.flabel=fld3&.src=ph > > http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/calmexica?d&.flabel=fld1&.src=ph > > Translations to English will be put up later. > > Take care, > > Mel Sanchez > > Salvador Calderón wrote: > > > I have updated my page on nahuatl > > > > http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/nahuatl.html > > > > Salvador Calderón -- Juergen Stowasser Burggasse 114/2/8 A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a Austria tel: 01/ 524 54 60 0676/ 398 66 79 http://www.univie.ac.at/meso/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Fri Jul 14 16:02:20 2000 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:02:20 GMT Subject: the -ti- in -titlan in placenames Message-ID: Frances Karttunen wrote:- > -tla:n with a long vowel is a locative meaning 'place of, at.' It doesn't > take the ligature -ti-. The short-vowel postposition -tlan 'at the base of, > below, next to' takes -ti- when bound to nouns to form place names but not in > ordinary postpositional constructions. It can go either way with body parts. Excuse a somewhat woolly idea, but I seem to remember hearing that -ti- can mean "become", as in the placename Teo-ti-huacan = "god-become-place" = "the place where men bacome gods". If so, could placenames of the type X-titlan have originally meant "X become next_to" = "place where you come to be next to X"? E.g. Tenochtitlan might have meant once "place where you come to be next to rocks and prickly pears". Such precision in thinking by people naming places seems to vary between different peoples: e,g, English-speakers might set up a settlement and call it "Church Hill", and Welsh-speakers might call it "Bryn Eglwys", routinely and unremarkably; but Nahuatl seems to realise that a hill is one thing and a village is another thing, and would call the settlement not "Teocaltepetl", but "Teocaltepec" = "_at_ the temple hill". From snoguez at juno.com Fri Jul 14 16:24:42 2000 From: snoguez at juno.com (Susan H Noguez) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:24:42 -0500 Subject: the -ti- in -titlan in placenames Message-ID: Dear Listeros: I vaguely remember having had a long discussion about the meaning of Teotihuacan in 1999. Did we decide that the best translation would be "The Place of Apotheosis"?? Now I'm still working with place names in the various manuscripts, and to me it's still a puzzle the difference between "Popocatepetl" and "Popocatepec", a word never seen in the codices or Colonial Nahuatl texts. The reason might be something linked with the cosmovision. As Mr. Appleyard says: "...a hill is one thing and a village (altepetl) is another thing..." Any input about the matter will be welcome Saludos Xavier Noguez On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:02:20 GMT "Anthony Appleyard" writes: > Frances Karttunen wrote:- >> -tla:n with a long vowel is a locative meaning 'place of, at.' It >doesn't >> take the ligature -ti-. The short-vowel postposition -tlan 'at the >base of, >> below, next to' takes -ti- when bound to nouns to form place names >but not in >> ordinary postpositional constructions. It can go either way with >body parts. > >Excuse a somewhat woolly idea, but I seem to remember hearing that >-ti- can >mean "become", as in the placename Teo-ti-huacan = "god-become-place" >= "the >place where men bacome gods". If so, could placenames of the type >X-titlan >have originally meant "X become next_to" = "place where you come to be >next to >X"? E.g. Tenochtitlan might have meant once "place where you come to >be next >to rocks and prickly pears". Such precision in thinking by people >naming >places seems to vary between different peoples: e,g, English-speakers >might >set up a settlement and call it "Church Hill", and Welsh-speakers >might call >it "Bryn Eglwys", routinely and unremarkably; but Nahuatl seems to >realise >that a hill is one thing and a village is another thing, and would >call the >settlement not "Teocaltepetl", but "Teocaltepec" = "_at_ the temple >hill". From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Jul 15 00:53:33 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 20:53:33 -0400 Subject: the -ti- in -titlan in placenames Message-ID: > Now I'm still working with place names in the various manuscripts, and to > me it's still a puzzle the difference between "Popocatepetl" and > "Popocatepec." Tepe:-tl is the word for 'hill, mountain' The stem is tepe:- Tepe:-c is the stem with the locative suffix -c/-co. (The form -co is added to stems that end in consonants, and the form -c is added to stems that end in vowels.) So tepe:c is that locative of tepe:tl. The difference is between the hill itself and the location. Fran From pmelgar at wamcomputers.com.ar Tue Jul 18 02:26:17 2000 From: pmelgar at wamcomputers.com.ar (Pat Melgar) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:26:17 -0300 Subject: nahuatl translators Message-ID: I am currently looking for Nahuatl translators for a scientific project. Interested persons, please contact me asap with cv and rates. Thank you. ----------------- Pat Melgar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pmelgar at wamcomputers.com.ar Tue Jul 18 02:40:14 2000 From: pmelgar at wamcomputers.com.ar (Pat Melgar) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:40:14 -0300 Subject: RV: nahuatl translators Message-ID: I am currently looking for Nahuatl translators for a scientific project. Interested persons, please contact me asap with cv and rates. Thank you. ----------------- Pat Melgar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lemarc at attglobal.net Tue Jul 18 20:43:54 2000 From: lemarc at attglobal.net (Marc Eisinger) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:43:54 +0200 Subject: Reference Message-ID: Frances If I remember well now it is IJAL 52(1986)188-196. By the way, I'm a grand father, a little girl, Mathilde, from Sebastien and Maria-Julia ... That the way it goes. Say hello to AL, Marc Frances Karttunen wrote: > Dear Marc, > > I have been searching through my files for a copy of Una's review and > haven't found it. Did you locate it on Bill Bright's web site? > > Fran > > ---------- > >From: Marc Eisinger > >To: Nahuat-l > >Subject: Reference > >Date: Sun, Jul 2, 2000, 6:39 AM > > > > > I'm looking for the issue number of IJAL where > > Una Canger made the review of France Karttunen's > > Analytical Dictionnary of Nahuatl. > > Thank you > > Marc Eisinger > > > > > > -- War does not determine who is right - only who is left (Anonymous) From lemarc at attglobal.net Tue Jul 18 21:41:19 2000 From: lemarc at attglobal.net (Marc Eisinger) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:41:19 +0200 Subject: Apologies Message-ID: I'm sorry, I used a "reply" without noting that it was to the list and not to Frances. Please excuse me. Marc From pkurtboke at hotmail.com Wed Jul 19 07:27:45 2000 From: pkurtboke at hotmail.com (petek kurtboke) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:27:45 GMT Subject: affixes Message-ID: is a full list of Nahuatl affixes available online? thanks petek ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Thu Jul 20 14:25:22 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:25:22 -0600 Subject: Fun in Ancient America Message-ID: >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:53:55 -0400 >Reply-To: "Jeffrey C. Splitstoser" >Sender: Pre-Columbian History >From: "Jeffrey C. Splitstoser" >Organization: Center for Ancient American Studies >Subject: AN, ME, NO: Fun in Ancient America >To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU > > >THE PRE-COLUMBIAN SOCIETY OF WASHINGTON, D.C., announces a one-day >symposium entitled, > >"ARE WE HAVING FUN YET? PLEASURABLE ACTIVITIES IN ANCIENT AMERICA" > >Saturday, September 16, 2000, 9:30 a.m. - 6:00 p.m. > >Conveniently located at the U.S. Navy Memorial & Naval Heritage Center >in downtown Washington, D.C., 701 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, between 7th >and 9th Streets (next to the Archives/Navy Memorial Station on Metro's >Green and Yellow lines) > > >SYNOPSIS: > >Centuries of scholarship have revealed much about life in ancient >America. But to what extent is this understanding, reflective of our own >biases and assumptions, skewed by an over-emphasis on the role of ritual >and symbolic meaning? Didn't ancient Americans ever just kick back and >relax? Didn't they ever just sit and joke, play games, or watch the >clouds go by? Did everything have symbolic meaning? > >Whether or not "leisure" is purely a Western concept, pre-Columbian >peoples certainly seemed to have had fun. Spanish chroniclers cite >references to board games, foot races, feasting, and drinking. Many of >these activities are depicted in art, and a few traces have been found >from archaeology. > >In this ground-breaking symposium, scholars will participate in the >first-ever study of what we know about this fascinating and surprisingly >neglected aspect of ancient American society-forms of fun and >entertainment. Through slide-illustrated lectures, experts will use art >and ethnohistorical and archaeological data to examine pleasure-seeking >activities including Aztec children's games and pleasure palaces, Maya >means of merriment, the Mesoamerican ball-game, and North American dice >games. > > >PARTICIPANTS: > >Jeffrey Quilter, Dumbarton Oaks, "At Work, Rest, or Play? The Question >of Leisure in Ancient America" > >Susan Toby Evans, Pennsylvania State University, "'Mid Pleasures and >Palaces: Aztec Nobles at Home and at Play" > >Jill Leslie McKeever-Furst, Moore College of Art and Design & University >of Pennsylvania Museum, "Compulsory Play: The Leisure Activities of >Aztec Children and Youths" > >Warren R. DeBoer, Queens College, CUNY, "Of Dice and Women: Gambling and >Exchange in Native North America" > >Karl Taube, University of California, Riverside, "American Gladiators: >Competitive Combat in Ancient Mesoamerica" > >Justin Kerr, Kerr Associates, New York, "A Good Time was had by All: Fun >and Games among the Ancient Maya" > > >FURTHER INFORMATION: > >For a brochure with complete details including costs, registration form, >and hotel accommodations, please send your name and address to >leisure at ancientamerica.net. From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Jul 25 14:36:46 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:36:46 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Convocatoria para encuentro sobre patrimonio intangible Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:38:05 -0600 >From: H-México Moderadores >To: Grupo sobre Historia de Mexico >Subject: Convocatoria para encuentro sobre patrimonio intangible >Sender: owner-h-mexico at servidor.unam.mx > >Réplicas con: deas.inah at mailer.main.conacyt.mx > >Convocatoria para encuentro sobre patrimonio intangible > >El Seminario de Estudios sobre el Patrimonio Cultural de la DirecciÛn de > >EtnologÃŒa y AntropologÃŒa Social del INAH convoca al : >ENCUENTRO ACADÉMICO. > >EL PATRIMONIO INTANGIBLE: >INVESTIGACIONES RECIENTES Y PROPUESTAS >PARA SU PROTECCION > > >Que tendrá lugar los dÃŒas 28 y 29 de septiembre de 2000 en el Auditorio >Fray >Bernardino de Sahagún del Museo Nacional de AntropologÃŒa e Historia, >Paseo >de la Reforma y Gandhi, Chapultepec, de 9 a 14 hrs. y de 16 a 19 hrs. > > >Exposición de motivos > > >La definición del patrimonio intangible que representa el conocimiento >acumulado de las sociedades humanas del pasado y presente merece ser >analizado, en el marco de las nuevas polÃŒticas culturales nacionales e >internacionales, ante la destrucción acelerada que enfrentan por el >predominio de nuevos modelos de desarrollo comercial. El patrimonio >intangible requiere una precisión definitoria, asÃŒ como un marco >jurídico >que permita su identificación, registro, difusión y defensa, otorgando a >sus >poseedores originales la posibilidad de decidir sobre el futuro del >mismo. >El patrimonio cultural enfrenta peligros inminentes, como se observa en >la >proliferación de patentes que pretenden hacer un uso particular del >conocimiento tradicional sobre el manejo de la biodiversidad, asÃŒ como >de >las manifestaciones culturales y artÃŒsticas de las comunidades urbanas y > >rurales del país. Por otra parte es necesario reflexionar sobre la >propuesta >internacional de organizaciones como UNESCO que pretende convertir el >patrimonio cultural en elementos detonantes del desarrollo económico de >las >comunidades a través del turismo. > > >TEMARIO > >El marco jurídico pertinente para la protección del patrimonio >intangible: >especialmente el de las culturas indÃŒgenas y campesinas, que comprenden >entre otros sectores importantes, los que a continuación se enumeran: > >El patrimonio lingüístico del país, con referencia especial a las >lenguas >indígenas en peligro de extinción >El patrimonio científico y tecnológico aportado por las culturas >campesinas >e indígenas. >El patrimonio artesanal. >El patrimonio musical, dancístico y dramático. >Las leyes de protección de derecho de autor y el patrimonio cultural >intangible >Las leyes de protección de marcas y patentes en torno a este patrimonio >La protección del patrimonio intangible en la legislación federal y >estatal. >Tareas pertinentes para la conservación del patrimonio intangible >La difusión del patrimonio intangible >Relación entre el patrimonio intangible y tangible > > >Dinámica de participación > >La asistencia a este encuentro como ponente o asistente estar· abierto a > >los interesados en el tema. >Los ponentes enviar·n su resumen al Seminario de Estudios sobre >Patrimonio >Cultural de la Dirección de Etnología y Antropología Social del >Instituto >Nacional de Antropología e Historia con la Lic. Leticia Rojas Guzmán, a >la >dirección: Ex Convento de El Carmen, Av. Revolución 4 y 6 esq. >Monasterio, >San Angel, D.F. C.P. 01000. Tels: 5616-50-58, 5550-80-43 y Fax: >5616-20-73; >o vía correo electrÛnico con las coordinadoras del seminario Lucero >Morales >Cano y/o Susana Gurrola . > >Correos electrónicos: >deas.inah at mailer.main.conacyt.mx >inah_cano at hotmail.com >susnanavg at terra.com.mx > >La fecha límite para la entrega de resúmenes es el 4 de agosto de 2000. >Durante los días del evento las ponencias se entregarán en original y >disquete, preferentemente en Word 97, para su publicación. > > >********************* >H-MEXICO, Grupo sobre historia de México >afiliado a H-Net, Humanities and Social Sciences on Line >http://h-net.msu.edu > > > Moderadores > Antonio Ibarra * Felipe Castro > ibarrara at servidor.unam.mx fcastro at servidor.unam.mx > > > >CONSULTA NUESTRO SITIO WEB http://www.h-mexico.unam.mx > >¡INSCRIBITE EN LA LISTA DE INVESTIGADORES DE LA PAGINA WEB! > > >***** John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/provost/ From megged at uclink4.berkeley.edu Wed Jul 26 17:50:49 2000 From: megged at uclink4.berkeley.edu (amos megged) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:50:49 -0700 Subject: "Tlal" Message-ID: I am a colonial historian currently working on the theme of indigenous memory in the Mexico Basin between 1530 and 1580, and in particular on the significance of limits and corner-stones in pictorial and testimonial memory. Looking at your Analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, I am a bit perplexed by something that might offer a real conceptual link between "land" and "memory", and I very much hope that you would be able to guide me on this: Under the entry "Tlalcahua, you write that, Tlalcahuia morphologically contrasts with tla-lcahu(a)<(i)cahu(a)l "to forget something"..while Molina has tlalcaualli with both meanings of "something forgotten" and uncultivated land". Is it very possible, conceptually, that the 'tla' prefix, which signifies "something" ("material") is also very much derived from tlal=land, and so, that, something forsaken is really related to land, as the most basic ideal type for memorizing? Am I farfetched with this assumption? I will be much grateful for your clarification on this point. Prof. Amos Megged Visiting Scholar, UC Berkeley (CLAS) From mdmorris at indiana.edu Wed Jul 26 19:32:09 2000 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:32:09 -0500 Subject: "Tlal" In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000726104926.0095e870@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Amos, Tlalcahua as something forgotten is composed of the non-specific something prefix tla and the verb ilcahua, which I would break into il- denoting something "mental" and cahua, "to leave," e.g. niccahua in comitl itech mocal," I left my bowl at your house. best, Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at Wed Jul 26 20:29:12 2000 From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:29:12 +0200 Subject: "Tlal" Message-ID: I´m not a linguist but in my opinion that´s a case of homonyms: (1) tlalca(h)ua, tlalca(h)ualli: tlal[li] = land + ca(h)ua = stop, finish (2) tlalca(h)a, tlalca(h)ualli: tla=algo + ilcaua = forget Saludos Juergen Stowasser, Vienna amos megged schrieb: > I am a colonial historian currently working on the theme of indigenous > memory in the Mexico Basin between 1530 and 1580, and in particular on the > significance of limits and corner-stones in pictorial and testimonial > memory. Looking at your Analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, I am a bit > perplexed by something that might offer a real conceptual link between > "land" and "memory", and I very much hope that you would be able to guide > me on this: > Under the entry "Tlalcahua, you write that, Tlalcahuia morphologically > contrasts with tla-lcahu(a)<(i)cahu(a)l "to forget something"..while Molina > has tlalcaualli with both meanings of "something forgotten" and > uncultivated land". Is it very possible, conceptually, that the 'tla' > prefix, which signifies "something" ("material") is also very much derived > from tlal=land, and so, that, something forsaken is really related to land, > as the most basic ideal type for memorizing? Am I farfetched with this > assumption? > > I will be much grateful for your clarification on this point. > > Prof. Amos Megged > Visiting Scholar, > UC Berkeley (CLAS) -- Juergen Stowasser Burggasse 114/2/8 A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a Austria tel: 01/ 524 54 60 v 0676/ 398 66 79 http://www.univie.ac.at/meso From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Wed Jul 26 20:18:30 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:18:30 -0600 Subject: "Tlal" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think that Amos' question actually has to do the the indefintie object affix -tla It seems to me that he is questioning whether or not deep down that -tla is somehow related to the stem -tlal for earth/dirt. J. F. Schwaller John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/Nahuatl From karttu at nantucket.net Wed Jul 26 20:35:05 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 16:35:05 -0400 Subject: "Tlal" Message-ID: >From: Mark David Morris >To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >Subject: Re: "Tlal" >Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000, 3:32 PM > > Amos, > > Tlalcahua as something forgotten is composed of the non-specific something > prefix tla and the verb ilcahua, which I would break into il- denoting > something "mental" and cahua, "to leave," e.g. niccahua in comitl itech > mocal," I left my bowl at your house. > > best, > Mark This is a case where attention to vowel length distinctions is very helpful. tla:lca:hua 'to give up land/place' < tla:l 'land' and ca:hua 'to leave, relinguish something' tlalca:hua 'to forget some nonspecific thing' < tla- (nonspecific object prefix) and (i)lca:hua 'to forget something' (The (i) is in parenthesis to indicate that it drops out when prefixes like tla-, no-, and mo- precede it.) tlalca:huilli is a noun derived from tla-(i)lca:hua and means 'something forgotten or forgettable' It's not derived in any way from tla:l-li 'land.' Just because vowel-length marking was not part of the orthography of Nahuatl (with the helpful exception of writers associated with Horacio Carochi) doesn't mean that distinctive vowel length was not attended to by Nahuatl speakers. There is a world of false etymology out there (lots in Simeon's dictionary) that has arisen from failure to pay attention to contrastive vowel length. Fran Karttunen From lemarc at attglobal.net Sun Jul 2 10:39:30 2000 From: lemarc at attglobal.net (Marc Eisinger) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 12:39:30 +0200 Subject: Reference Message-ID: I'm looking for the issue number of IJAL where Una Canger made the review of France Karttunen's Analytical Dictionnary of Nahuatl. Thank you Marc Eisinger From William.Bright at Colorado.EDU Sun Jul 2 16:26:32 2000 From: William.Bright at Colorado.EDU (william bright) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 10:26:32 -0600 Subject: Reference In-Reply-To: <395F1BE1.35A07DCD@attglobal.net> Message-ID: 52.188-96 (1986). >I'm looking for the issue number of IJAL where >Una Canger made the review of France Karttunen's >Analytical Dictionnary of Nahuatl. >Thank you >Marc Eisinger -- William Bright Professor Emeritus of Linguistics & Anthropology, UCLA Professor Adjoint of Linguistics, University of Colorado, Boulder Editor, Written Language and Literacy Editor, Native American Placenames of the United States 1625 Mariposa Avenue, Boulder, CO 80302 Tel. 303-444-4274 FAX 303-413-0017 Email william.bright at colorado.edu William Bright's website: http://www.ncidc.org/bright -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 690 bytes Desc: not available URL: From renee at calweb.com Sun Jul 2 21:22:50 2000 From: renee at calweb.com (Renee Lopez) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 14:22:50 -0700 Subject: Cubanascnan Message-ID: Hello Everyone; I am a brand new subscriber to NAHUAT-L My interest at present is particularly on the native language of Cuba {Cubanascnan} . I am guessing that it is related to Nauhatl, however, it is only a guess. I would like some assistance in learning more about the native culture of Cuba. Am I in the right place to ask about this? Thank You, -Renee Lopez From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com Sun Jul 2 22:34:39 2000 From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 18:34:39 EDT Subject: Cubanascnan Message-ID: Hello Renee, If I remember correctly, the languages spoken in Pre-Columbian Cuba were Ciboney and different forms of Taino. I don't believe that they were related to Nahuatl. Quien sabe mas? Henry Vasquez From renee at calweb.com Tue Jul 4 01:53:45 2000 From: renee at calweb.com (Renee Lopez) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:53:45 -0700 Subject: Cubanascnan Message-ID: I am a brand new subscriber to NAHUAT-L Knowing very, very little of Nahuatl, and knowing even less about the subscribership of this list, I will take a plunge at finding something out, make a little introductory note about myself and see what happens. If the readership finds my opening post a little on the unscholarly side, I will apologize in advance. Please try to make it past the intro. There are legit (I think) questions at the bottom of this. I am a 47 year old mother of two fully grown sons and grandmother of one 3 year old. I speak more Spanish than either of my sons although I acquired what I know from my marriage to a native Spanish speaker born in Chihuahua, Chih.,Mexico. My interests in anthropology go back to my undergrad days at U.of Washington. I have maintained my anthropological interests ever since, but did not manage to get an advanced degree in it. Rather, I went into psychology after my boys were grown and earned an M.A. in Clinical Psych now using it at a children's psychiatric clinic in Sacramento, CA. My interest at present is particularly on the native language of Cuba. I recently learned that the native name for Cuba is Cubanascnan. After learning the name, I am wondering if the native language of Cubanascnan is related to Nauhatl. It is only a guess however. The ending, (-scnan) seems to my ear [sic] similar to -(atlan). Am I making a wild assumption about there possibly being a linguistic connection? Is there a phoneme in Nahuatl that sounds like Cuba? I would like some assistance in learning more about the native culture of Cuba. Am I in the right place to ask questions like this? Thank You, Renee Lopez, MA From sinne000 at uwp.edu Tue Jul 4 16:55:33 2000 From: sinne000 at uwp.edu (Timmon M Sinnen) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 11:55:33 -0500 Subject: Proper possessives Message-ID: I've found a few pages but am still learning rudimentary structure. How do you properly conjugate amongst two nouns? All I've found info for is possessive, but using his/her/its' for inanimate usually isn't correct. I'm looking for things such as the world's song, and heaven's fire. Also, if anyone could suggest any literature available offline with grammar lessons or hte like, from english to nahuatl, it'd be appreciated... thanks. -- "No one gets too old to learn a new way of being stupid." tymme at mindless.com http://scroll.to/the.magi ICQ# 1055868 *** This message printed on 100% recyclable phosphur *** From dfrye at umich.edu Wed Jul 5 13:19:39 2000 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 09:19:39 -0400 Subject: Cubanascnan In-Reply-To: <009501bfe55a$b134ad20$705dd3cf@authors> Message-ID: 1. No, there is no relation between the (extinct) Taino language of Cuba and Nahuatl. Most linguistic reconstructions have Taino languages coming from South America into the Caribbean, not from Middle America. Even if there were relationships between any Mesoamerican language and Taino, it would much more likely be with Maya (since Maya speakers were the sea-faring ones -- Nahuatl was based in the central highlands, far from the sea). There is the one example of "hurakan," the word for hurricane in both Yucatec Maya and Taino. 2. Isn't it Cubanacan, not Cubanascnan? I have never heard the latter. You see the form Cubanacan all over Cuba. 3. A good place to start would be a book about the Taino, such as Irving Rouse's. David Frye, University of Michigan From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx Wed Jul 5 17:47:18 2000 From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 12:47:18 -0500 Subject: Cubanascnan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just an observation. I think Nahuatl is based in many more places than just the central highlands. The fifty-plus native speakers of nahuatl from the Huasteca who are currently persuing their university studies in Zacatecas would certainly be quick to point this out. John Sullivan Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas on 7/5/00 8:19 AM, David L. Frye at dfrye at umich.edu wrote: > 1. No, there is no relation between the (extinct) Taino language of Cuba > and Nahuatl. Most linguistic reconstructions have Taino languages coming > from South America into the Caribbean, not from Middle America. Even if > there were relationships between any Mesoamerican language and Taino, it > would much more likely be with Maya (since Maya speakers were the > sea-faring ones -- Nahuatl was based in the central highlands, far from > the sea). There is the one example of "hurakan," the word for hurricane in > both Yucatec Maya and Taino. > > 2. Isn't it Cubanacan, not Cubanascnan? I have never heard the latter. You > see the form Cubanacan all over Cuba. > > 3. A good place to start would be a book about the Taino, such as Irving > Rouse's. > > David Frye, University of Michigan > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jul 5 18:32:13 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:32:13 -0500 Subject: Cubanascnan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe Dave was referring to its more original location. :) On Wed, 5 Jul 2000, John Sullivan wrote: > Just an observation. I think Nahuatl is based in many more places than just > the central highlands. The fifty-plus native speakers of nahuatl from the > Huasteca who are currently persuing their university studies in Zacatecas > would certainly be quick to point this out. > John Sullivan > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > > on 7/5/00 8:19 AM, David L. Frye at dfrye at umich.edu wrote: > > > 1. No, there is no relation between the (extinct) Taino language of Cuba > > and Nahuatl. Most linguistic reconstructions have Taino languages coming > > from South America into the Caribbean, not from Middle America. Even if > > there were relationships between any Mesoamerican language and Taino, it > > would much more likely be with Maya (since Maya speakers were the > > sea-faring ones -- Nahuatl was based in the central highlands, far from > > the sea). There is the one example of "hurakan," the word for hurricane in > > both Yucatec Maya and Taino. > > > > 2. Isn't it Cubanacan, not Cubanascnan? I have never heard the latter. You > > see the form Cubanacan all over Cuba. > > > > 3. A good place to start would be a book about the Taino, such as Irving > > Rouse's. > > > > David Frye, University of Michigan > > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "So, who you gonna believe, me or your own eyes?" -Chico Marx ******************************************************************************* From renee at calweb.com Thu Jul 6 15:15:17 2000 From: renee at calweb.com (Renee Lopez) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 08:15:17 -0700 Subject: Cubanascnan Message-ID: Thank You David...... -----Original Message----- From: David L. Frye To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Date: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 6:44 AM Subject: Re: Cubanascnan >1. No, there is no relation between the (extinct) Taino language of Cuba >and Nahuatl. Most linguistic reconstructions have Taino languages coming >from South America into the Caribbean, not from Middle America. Even if >there were relationships between any Mesoamerican language and Taino, it >would much more likely be with Maya (since Maya speakers were the >sea-faring ones -- Nahuatl was based in the central highlands, far from >the sea). There is the one example of "hurakan," the word for hurricane in >both Yucatec Maya and Taino. OK Taino it is. I appreciate that you took the time to write this. >2. Isn't it Cubanacan, not Cubanascnan? I have never heard the latter. You >see the form Cubanacan all over Cuba. I'm not sure. I found the other version on the Internet (mis-information highway?). One of them did say it was from Microsoft Encarta 97, "Cuba/History/". The other one cited no sources whatsoever. So credibility is questionable. I am not so sure if I am perpetuating a typo or if there really is a "Cubanscnan". Less than erudite scholarship, perhaps borderline plagiariasm "cut and pasted" from Internet sources as the computer age has enabled people to do, can get irritating. Can't it? >3. A good place to start would be a book about the Taino, such as Irving >Rouse's. Sounds like a good place to start. Thank You again for the reference. > >David Frye, University of Michigan Renee Hudgins-Lopez, Somewhere in Sacramento From hgutti at yahoo.com Thu Jul 6 23:08:30 2000 From: hgutti at yahoo.com (henry gutierrez) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:08:30 -0700 Subject: Xocolotl Message-ID: Hi there, Could you help me??? I've found the word "Xocolotl", What does it mean?? I found "xocolatl" that means "chocolate", but I'm almost sure that mean is wrong thanks a lot!! Henry You have incorrect info regarding the server. I just sent you instructions. The correct address to post a message is: nahuat-l at majordomo.umt.edu to subscribe use: majordomo at majordomo.umt.edu John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From roman_surma at mail.ru Fri Jul 7 09:55:02 2000 From: roman_surma at mail.ru (Roman A. Surma) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:55:02 +0400 Subject: =?koi8-r?Q?=F3antares_Mexicanos?= Message-ID: Dear all! I am intresting in Nahuatl poetry for some years. Of course, I've found some excerpts in the books about Aztec culture, some in the Net. The problem is that I can not obtain sufficiently large corpus of texts to read. Is there a kind of public domain archive of such texts in the Internet? (I have tried 'Project Gutenberg' et al., but in vain. Also I can not order the book from bookstore site like 'Amazon.com', because having a credit card in Russia is too expensive pleasure). Can anybody help me in my searching? Roman Surma, From n8upb at yahoo.com Fri Jul 7 14:08:17 2000 From: n8upb at yahoo.com (Asencion Garcia) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 07:08:17 -0700 Subject: óantares_Mexicanos Message-ID: --- "Roman A. Surma" wrote: > Dear all! > > I am intresting in Nahuatl poetry for some years. Of > course, I've found some > excerpts in the books about Aztec culture, some in > the Net. The problem is > that I can not obtain sufficiently large corpus of > texts to read. > > Is there a kind of public domain archive of such > texts in the Internet? (I > have tried 'Project Gutenberg' et al., but in vain. > Also I can not order the > book from bookstore site like 'Amazon.com', because > having a credit card in > Russia is too expensive pleasure). > > Can anybody help me in my searching? > > Roman Surma, ===================================================== Dobi Roman ! Well my friend in Russia, try this site: http://www.indians.org/welker/aztec.htm If that does not work just try: www. aztecs.com it should open a variety of pages, thne look for the nahuat'l language,, Good luck Dobridanya..... Cuitlahuac A. Garcia > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From n8upb at yahoo.com Fri Jul 7 14:39:40 2000 From: n8upb at yahoo.com (Asencion Garcia) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 07:39:40 -0700 Subject: Xocolotl Message-ID: --- henry gutierrez wrote: > Hi there, > > Could you help me??? > > I've found the word "Xocolotl", What does it mean?? > I found "xocolatl" that means "chocolate", but I'm > almost sure that mean is wrong > > thanks a lot!! > > Henry ================================================= Yup, it means Chocolate....It is a stolen word from the Nahuat'l language, and is only one of many. Tamale, Tortilla, Ocelot, etc..... there are many that are in the English language and other languages....I guess Nahuat'l is universal... Cuitlahuac A. Garcia > > > > > > You have incorrect info regarding the server. I > just > sent you > instructions. The correct address to post a message > is: > nahuat-l at majordomo.umt.edu > > to subscribe use: > majordomo at majordomo.umt.edu > > > > John Frederick Schwaller > > schwallr at selway.umt.edu > Associate Provost > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! > Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From jdebuen at caliente.com.mx Fri Jul 7 17:51:13 2000 From: jdebuen at caliente.com.mx (Jorge de Buen) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 10:51:13 -0700 Subject: Tocayo Message-ID: Tijuana, B. C., 7 de julio de 2000 Dear friends, I'm back for a while, after several months, and I can not recall If we already discussed the etymology of the Spanish word _tocayo._ There is some uncertainty about the origin, according to Corominas (a non-accented version is at the bottom of the page): ?... es que no hay en n?huatl un adjetivo que pudiera servir de base a _tocayo,_ ni se ve forma concreta de derivarlo del verbo _tocayotia_ o del sustantivo _tocaytl;_ es cierto que A. de Molina trae _tocaye_ ?persona que tiene nombre, o claro en fama y en honra, o encumbrado en dignidad?, pero esto equivale evidentemente a ?renombrado?, ?afamado? y de ah? no saldr?a _tocayo._ [...] Ante los hechos citados, no se puede descartar el que _tocayo_ venga en una forma u otra de alg?n miembro de esta familia l?xica azteca, pero hace falta demostrarlo mejor, y habr?a que empezar por dar pruebas de que el vocablo se emple? primero en M?jico que en Espa?a y en Am?rica del Sur...? The other candidate is the Latin ritual expression "Ubi tu Caius, ibi ego Caia" (If you are Caio, I'm Caia). Corominas says: ?En apoyo de esta idea observo que los dos ejemplos m?s antiguos de _tocayo_ nos presentan a un hombre y una mujer que se dan rec?procamente el nombre de _tocayo_ y _tocaya,_ y a?ado que el ambiente del teatro madrile?o era propicio a toda clase de retru?canos, sin excluir los alusivos a la educaci?n cl?sica: recu?rdese el probable origen de _tertuliano_ y _TERTULIA,_ voces teatrales tambi?n y fundadas en una especie de chiste cl?sico.? One of the most important objections to the Nahualt origin is that the word _tocayo,_ in the Spanish literature, had it first appearance in Spain (1820). What do you think? (I hope that the accented characters don't make a mess out of this *mess*age.) Jorge de Buen U. jdebuen at caliente.com.mx Tijuana, M?xico --------------- "... es que no hay en nahuatl un adjetivo que pudiera servir de base a _tocayo,_ ni se ve forma concreta de derivarlo del verbo _tocayotia_ o del sustantivo _tocaytl;_ es cierto que A. de Molina trae _tocaye_ 'persona que tiene nombre, o claro en fama y en honra, o encumbrado en dignidad', pero esto equivale evidentemente a 'renombrado', 'afamado' y de ahi no saldria _tocayo._ [...] Ante los hechos citados, no se puede descartar el que _tocayo_ venga en una forma u otra de algun miembro de esta familia lexica azteca, pero hace falta demostrarlo mejor, y habria que empezar por dar pruebas de que el vocablo se empleo primero en Mejico que en Espan~a y en America del Sur..." "En apoyo de esta idea observo que los dos ejemplos mas antiguos de _tocayo_ nos presentan a un hombre y una mujer que se dan reciprocamente el nombre de _tocayo_ y _tocaya,_ y an~ado que el ambiente del teatro madrilen~o era propicio a toda clase de retruecanos, sin excluir los alusivos a la educacion clasica: recuerdese el probable origen de _tertuliano_ y _TERTULIA,_ voces teatrales tambien y fundadas en una especie de chiste clasico." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Jul 7 18:50:08 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:50:08 -0500 Subject: Xocolotl In-Reply-To: <20000707143940.23495.qmail@web120.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: I believe that the nahuat-l or AZTLAN archives has an extensive discussion on the origin of word "chocolate." This exchange of ideas occurred about two years ago. Michael On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Asencion Garcia wrote: > > --- henry gutierrez wrote: > > Hi there, > > > > Could you help me??? > > > > I've found the word "Xocolotl", What does it mean?? > > I found "xocolatl" that means "chocolate", but I'm > > almost sure that mean is wrong > > > > thanks a lot!! > > > > Henry > > ================================================= > Yup, it means Chocolate....It is a stolen word from > the Nahuat'l language, and is only one of many. > > Tamale, Tortilla, Ocelot, etc..... > > there are many that are in the English language and > other languages....I guess Nahuat'l is universal... > > Cuitlahuac A. Garcia > > > > > > > > > > > > You have incorrect info regarding the server. I > > just > > sent you > > instructions. The correct address to post a message > > is: > > nahuat-l at majordomo.umt.edu > > > > to subscribe use: > > majordomo at majordomo.umt.edu > > > > > > > > John Frederick Schwaller > > > > schwallr at selway.umt.edu > > Associate Provost > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! > > Messenger. > > http://im.yahoo.com/ > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "So, who you gonna believe, me or your own eyes?" -Chico Marx ******************************************************************************* From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Fri Jul 7 21:02:01 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 15:02:01 -0600 Subject: Nezahualcoyotl Message-ID: >Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:45:04 -0400 >Reply-To: Johncarr439 at cs.com >Sender: Pre-Columbian History >From: John Carr >Subject: ME: Nezahualcoyotl >To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU > > >This Aztec poem is engraved in stone above a door in the courtyard >of the Museo Natl. de Antropologia in Mexico, DF and was the frontpiece >of Eric Wolf's _Sons of the Shaking Earth_ >_________________________________________ > > > "All the earth is a grave and nothing escapes it; > nothing is so perfect that it does not descend into > its tomb. > Rivers, rivulets, fountains and waters flow, > but never return to their joyful beginnings; > Anxiously they hasten on to the vast realms of the > rain god. > As they widen their banks, they also fashion > the sad urn of their burial. > Filled are the bowels of the earth with pestilential > dust > once flesh and bone, once animate bodies of men > who sat upon thrones, decided cases, presided in > council, > commanded armies, conquered provinces, possessed > treasure, destroyed temples, > exulted in their pride, majesty, fortune, praise and > power. > > Vanished are these glories, just as the fearful smoke > vanishes > that belches forth from the infernal fires of > Popocatepetl. > Nothing recalls them but the written page." > > ~Nezahualcoyotl > King of Texcoco (1431-72) > > jc > >note: Fernando Horcasitas P. on seeing it above the museum > door once remarked to me "Its a fake, isn't it?" It is true > Mexico once enjoyed a cottage industry faking Nahuatl > poetry and yes, Fernandotzin studied under Prof. Garibay. > Has anyone seen the source ms for the above? John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From jdebuen at caliente.com.mx Fri Jul 7 22:59:34 2000 From: jdebuen at caliente.com.mx (Jorge de Buen) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 15:59:34 -0700 Subject: RV: Tocayo Message-ID: Tijuana, B. C., 7 de julio de 2000 Dear friends, I'm back for a while, after several months, and I can not recall If we already discussed the etymology of the Spanish word _tocayo._ There is some uncertainty about the origin, according to Corominas (a non-accented version is at the bottom of the page): ?... es que no hay en n?huatl un adjetivo que pudiera servir de base a _tocayo,_ ni se ve forma concreta de derivarlo del verbo _tocayotia_ o del sustantivo _tocaytl;_ es cierto que A. de Molina trae _tocaye_ ?persona que tiene nombre, o claro en fama y en honra, o encumbrado en dignidad?, pero esto equivale evidentemente a ?renombrado?, ?afamado? y de ah? no saldr?a _tocayo._ [...] Ante los hechos citados, no se puede descartar el que _tocayo_ venga en una forma u otra de alg?n miembro de esta familia l?xica azteca, pero hace falta demostrarlo mejor, y habr?a que empezar por dar pruebas de que el vocablo se emple? primero en M?jico que en Espa?a y en Am?rica del Sur...? The other candidate is the Latin ritual expression "Ubi tu Caius, ibi ego Caia" (If you are Caio, I'm Caia). Corominas says: ?En apoyo de esta idea observo que los dos ejemplos m?s antiguos de _tocayo_ nos presentan a un hombre y una mujer que se dan rec?procamente el nombre de _tocayo_ y _tocaya,_ y a?ado que el ambiente del teatro madrile?o era propicio a toda clase de retru?canos, sin excluir los alusivos a la educaci?n cl?sica: recu?rdese el probable origen de _tertuliano_ y _TERTULIA,_ voces teatrales tambi?n y fundadas en una especie de chiste cl?sico.? One of the most important objections to the Nahualt origin is that the word _tocayo,_ in the Spanish literature, had it first appearance in Spain (1820). What do you think? (I hope that the accented characters don't make a mess out of this *mess*age.) Jorge de Buen U. jdebuen at caliente.com.mx Tijuana, M?xico --------------- "... es que no hay en nahuatl un adjetivo que pudiera servir de base a _tocayo,_ ni se ve forma concreta de derivarlo del verbo _tocayotia_ o del sustantivo _tocaytl;_ es cierto que A. de Molina trae _tocaye_ 'persona que tiene nombre, o claro en fama y en honra, o encumbrado en dignidad', pero esto equivale evidentemente a 'renombrado', 'afamado' y de ahi no saldria _tocayo._ [...] Ante los hechos citados, no se puede descartar el que _tocayo_ venga en una forma u otra de algun miembro de esta familia lexica azteca, pero hace falta demostrarlo mejor, y habria que empezar por dar pruebas de que el vocablo se empleo primero en Mejico que en Espan~a y en America del Sur..." "En apoyo de esta idea observo que los dos ejemplos mas antiguos de _tocayo_ nos presentan a un hombre y una mujer que se dan reciprocamente el nombre de _tocayo_ y _tocaya,_ y an~ado que el ambiente del teatro madrilen~o era propicio a toda clase de retruecanos, sin excluir los alusivos a la educacion clasica: recuerdese el probable origen de _tertuliano_ y _TERTULIA,_ voces teatrales tambien y fundadas en una especie de chiste clasico." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CCBtlevine at aol.com Fri Jul 7 23:42:52 2000 From: CCBtlevine at aol.com (CCBtlevine at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 19:42:52 -0400 Subject: RV: Tocayo Message-ID: In a message dated Fri, 7 Jul 2000 7:01:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Jorge de Buen" writes: << Tijuana, B. C., 7 de julio de 2000 tocayo, in the Spanish literature, had it first appearance in Spain (1820). I reviewed Simeon's Dictionary and Sullivans Compendium of Nahuatl Grammar. Sullivan uses the word "tocayo" as an adjective meaning renown or name from tocaitl, name. Tocaitl seems to have as many meanings in Nahuatl as name has in English. A person of renown has made a name for him/herself. Sullivan takes a quote for her illustration from the Florentine Codex Vol X, p.15 lines 12, 13. It seems reasonable to think that a person who shares your name is renowned or famous because you are well known. Tocayo! Famoso! From jdebuen at caliente.com.mx Sat Jul 8 00:31:05 2000 From: jdebuen at caliente.com.mx (Jorge de Buen) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:31:05 -0700 Subject: Tocayo Message-ID: Tijuana, B. C., 7 de julio de 2000 CCBtlevine wrote: "Sullivan uses the word 'tocayo' as an adjective meaning renown or name from tocaitl, name. Tocaitl seems to have as many meanings in Nahuatl as name has in English. A person of renown has made a name for him/herself. Sullivan takes a quote for her illustration from the Florentine Codex Vol X, p.15 lines 12, 13. It seems reasonable to think that a person who shares your name is renowned or famous because you are well known. Tocayo! Famoso!" More to the point: In the vocabulary of the Florentine Codex, compiled by Joe, I found the word _tocayoh_ 'renowned.' Also, I am wondering if it is possible to form a word like _tocayiuh_ from _tocaitl_ 'name' and _iuh_ 'as,' 'like,' 'as if.' But it looks much more like a verb. Saludos. Jorge de Buen U. jdebuen at caliente.com.mx Tijuana, M?xico -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n8upb at yahoo.com Sat Jul 8 02:46:10 2000 From: n8upb at yahoo.com (Asencion Garcia) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 19:46:10 -0700 Subject: Nezahualcoyotl Message-ID: --- "John F. Schwaller" wrote: > > >Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:45:04 -0400 > >Reply-To: Johncarr439 at cs.com > >Sender: Pre-Columbian History > > >From: John Carr > >Subject: ME: Nezahualcoyotl > >To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU > > > > > >This Aztec poem is engraved in stone above a door > in the courtyard > >of the Museo Natl. de Antropologia in Mexico, DF > and was the frontpiece > >of Eric Wolf's _Sons of the Shaking Earth_ > >_________________________________________ > > > > > > "All the earth is a grave and nothing escapes > it; > > nothing is so perfect that it does not > descend into > > its tomb. > > Rivers, rivulets, fountains and waters flow, > > but never return to their joyful > beginnings; > > Anxiously they hasten on to the vast realms of > the > > rain god. > > As they widen their banks, they also fashion > > the sad urn of their burial. > > Filled are the bowels of the earth with > pestilential > > dust > > once flesh and bone, once animate bodies of men > > who sat upon thrones, decided cases, > presided in > > council, > > commanded armies, conquered provinces, > possessed > > treasure, destroyed temples, > > exulted in their pride, majesty, fortune, > praise and > > power. > > > > Vanished are these glories, just as the fearful > smoke > > vanishes > > that belches forth from the infernal fires of > > Popocatepetl. > > Nothing recalls them but the written page." > > > > ~Nezahualcoyotl > > King of Texcoco > 1431-72 > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From n8upb at yahoo.com Sat Jul 8 02:55:18 2000 From: n8upb at yahoo.com (Asencion Garcia) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 19:55:18 -0700 Subject: Nezahualcoyotl Message-ID: --- Asencion Garcia wrote: > > --- > > > > > >This Aztec poem is engraved in stone above a door > > in the courtyard > > >of the Museo Natl. de Antropologia in Mexico, DF > > and was the frontpiece > > >of Eric Wolf's _Sons of the Shaking Earth_ > > >_________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > "All the earth is a grave and nothing escapes > > it; > > > nothing is so perfect that it does not > > descend into > > > its tomb. > > > Rivers, rivulets, fountains and waters flow, > > > but never return to their joyful > > beginnings; > > > Anxiously they hasten on to the vast realms of > > the > > > rain god. > > > As they widen their banks, they also fashion > > > the sad urn of their burial. > > > Filled are the bowels of the earth with > > pestilential > > > dust > > > once flesh and bone, once animate bodies of > men > > > who sat upon thrones, decided cases, > > presided in > > > council, > > > commanded armies, conquered provinces, > > possessed > > > treasure, destroyed temples, > > > exulted in their pride, majesty, fortune, > > praise and > > > power. > > > > > > Vanished are these glories, just as the > fearful > > smoke > > > vanishes > > > that belches forth from the infernal fires of > > > Popocatepetl. > > > Nothing recalls them but the written page." > > > > > > ~Nezahualcoyotl > > > King of > Texcoco > > > 1431-72 > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from > anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From micc at home.com Sat Jul 8 05:08:24 2000 From: micc at home.com (mario) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:08:24 -0700 Subject: Tocayo Message-ID: Could the basis of the word be "to" (our) + "Cayotl" (essence or nationhood)??? i.e. "Our being"??? Jorge de Buen wrote: > Tijuana, B. C., 7 de julio de 2000 > > CCBtlevine wrote: > > "Sullivan uses the word 'tocayo' as an adjective meaning renown or > name from tocaitl, name.Tocaitl seems to have as many meanings in > Nahuatl as name has in English.A person of renown has made a name for > him/herself.Sullivan takes a quote for her illustration from the > Florentine Codex Vol X, p.15 lines 12, 13.It seems reasonable to think > that a person who shares your name is renowned or famous because you > are well known.Tocayo! Famoso!" > > More to the point: In the vocabulary of the Florentine Codex, compiled > by Joe, I found the word _tocayoh_ 'renowned.' Also, I am wondering if > it is possible to form a word like _tocayiuh_ from _tocaitl_ 'name' > and _iuh_ 'as,' 'like,' 'as if.' But it looks much more like a verb. > > Saludos. > > Jorge de Buen U. > > jdebuen at caliente.com.mx > > Tijuana, M?xico > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Jul 8 20:34:21 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 16:34:21 -0400 Subject: Tocayo Message-ID: To:ca:yoh 'one's namesake' is derived from to:ca:itl in the following way: The stem of to:ca:itl is to:ca:- To this is added the suffix -yoh. When -yoh is added to a noun stem, it forms a noun meaning 'something or someone invested with the quality of (whatever the noun is)' So from eztli 'blood' one gets ezyoh (or ezzoh) meaning either 'something bloody' or 'someone bloodthirsty.' >From zoquitl 'clay' one gets zoquiyoh 'something or someone of clay.' The difrasismo: in zoquiyoh, in tla:lloh (< tla:l-yoh) refers to one's earthly body, rather like what is said at Christian interment services, "Ashes to ashes, dust to dust." So you can see how to:ca:yoh means 'someone who has [someone else's] name.' There is another derivational suffix -yo:tl which forms abstract nouns such as tla:lticpaccayo:tl 'mundane matters, that having to do with live on earth.' >From to:ca:itl one can form to:ca:yo:tl 'fame, reputation.' When this is possessed, it has the form -to:ca:yo (as in i:to:ca:yo 'his/her fame') In spelling these two different derivations are easy to confuse. By the way, if a word is possessed (with to- 'our' for instance), it cannot end is -tl. ---------- From: mario To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Subject: Re: Tocayo Date: Sat, Jul 8, 2000, 1:08 AM Could the basis of the word be "to" (our) + "Cayotl" (essence or nationhood)??? i.e. "Our being"??? Jorge de Buen wrote: Tijuana, B. C., 7 de julio de 2000 CCBtlevine wrote: "Sullivan uses the word 'tocayo' as an adjective meaning renown or name from tocaitl, name.Tocaitl seems to have as many meanings in Nahuatl as name has in English.A person of renown has made a name for him/herself.Sullivan takes a quote for her illustration from the Florentine Codex Vol X, p.15 lines 12, 13.It seems reasonable to think that a person who shares your name is renowned or famous because you are well known.Tocayo! Famoso!" More to the point: In the vocabulary of the Florentine Codex, compiled by Joe, I found the word _tocayoh_ 'renowned.' Also, I am wondering if it is possible to form a word like _tocayiuh_ from _tocaitl_ 'name' and _iuh_ 'as,' 'like,' 'as if.' But it looks much more like a verb. Saludos. Jorge de Buen U. jdebuen at caliente.com.mx Tijuana, M?xico -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micc at home.com Sun Jul 9 04:11:07 2000 From: micc at home.com (mario) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 21:11:07 -0700 Subject: Tocayo Message-ID: Dear Frances, Thanks for the great, lucid, and easy to follow explanation!!!!!! mario e. aguilar www.aguila-blanca.com Frances Karttunen wrote: > To:ca:yoh 'one's namesake' is derived from to:ca:itl in the following > way: > > The stem of to:ca:itl is to:ca:- > > To this is added the suffix -yoh. When -yoh is added to a noun stem, > it forms a noun meaning 'something or someone invested with the > quality of (whatever the noun is)' > > So from eztli 'blood' one gets ezyoh (or ezzoh) meaning either > 'something bloody' or 'someone bloodthirsty.' > > >From zoquitl 'clay' one gets zoquiyoh 'something or someone of clay.' > > The difrasismo: in zoquiyoh, in tla:lloh (< tla:l-yoh) refers to one's > earthly body, rather like what is said at Christian interment > services, "Ashes to ashes, dust to dust." > > So you can see how to:ca:yoh means 'someone who has [someone else's] > name.' > > There is another derivational suffix -yo:tl which forms abstract nouns > such as tla:lticpaccayo:tl 'mundane matters, that having to do with > live on earth.' > > >From to:ca:itl one can form to:ca:yo:tl 'fame, reputation.' When > this is possessed, it has the form -to:ca:yo (as in i:to:ca:yo > 'his/her fame') > > In spelling these two different derivations are easy to confuse. > > By the way, if a word is possessed (with to- 'our' for instance), it > cannot end is -tl. > > ---------- > From: mario > To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu > Subject: Re: Tocayo > Date: Sat, Jul 8, 2000, 1:08 AM > > > > Could the basis of the word be "to" (our) + "Cayotl" > (essence or nationhood)??? > > i.e. "Our being"??? > > Jorge de Buen wrote: > > Tijuana, B. C., 7 de julio de 2000 > CCBtlevine wrote: > > "Sullivan uses the word 'tocayo' as an adjective > meaning renown or name from tocaitl, name.Tocaitl > seems to have as many meanings in Nahuatl as name > has in English.A person of renown has made a name > for him/herself.Sullivan takes a quote for her > illustration from the Florentine Codex Vol X, p.15 > lines 12, 13.It seems reasonable to think that a > person who shares your name is renowned or famous > because you are well known.Tocayo! Famoso!" > > More to the point: In the vocabulary of the > Florentine Codex, compiled by Joe, I found the > word _tocayoh_ 'renowned.' Also, I am wondering if > it is possible to form a word like _tocayiuh_ from > _tocaitl_ 'name' and _iuh_ 'as,' 'like,' 'as if.' > But it looks much more like a verb. > > Saludos. > > Jorge de Buen U. > > jdebuen at caliente.com.mx > > Tijuana, M?xico > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at nantucket.net Sun Jul 9 18:32:04 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:32:04 -0400 Subject: Reference Message-ID: Dear Marc, I have been searching through my files for a copy of Una's review and haven't found it. Did you locate it on Bill Bright's web site? Fran ---------- >From: Marc Eisinger >To: Nahuat-l >Subject: Reference >Date: Sun, Jul 2, 2000, 6:39 AM > > I'm looking for the issue number of IJAL where > Una Canger made the review of France Karttunen's > Analytical Dictionnary of Nahuatl. > Thank you > Marc Eisinger > > > From William.Bright at Colorado.EDU Sun Jul 9 19:11:44 2000 From: William.Bright at Colorado.EDU (william bright) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:11:44 -0600 Subject: Reference In-Reply-To: <200007091834.OAA01393@nantucket.net> Message-ID: hi fran; the reference isn't on my website, but a couple of years ago, for my own use, i made an index to recent years of IJAL - since david rood and the u/chi press were uninterested in doing so. then the press said they would put my index on their website, but they haven't done anything about it. so i'll probably put it on my own website sometime soon. all best; bill -- William Bright Professor Emeritus of Linguistics & Anthropology, UCLA Professor Adjoint of Linguistics, University of Colorado, Boulder Editor, Written Language and Literacy Editor, Native American Placenames of the United States 1625 Mariposa Avenue, Boulder, CO 80302 Tel. 303-444-4274 FAX 303-413-0017 Email william.bright at colorado.edu William Bright's website: http://www.ncidc.org/bright From carlossn at ui.boe.es Mon Jul 10 07:15:50 2000 From: carlossn at ui.boe.es (Carlos Santamarina) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:15:50 +0200 Subject: Tocayo... Message-ID: Amigos: De acuerdo en parte con la explicaci?n de Frances de que "to:ca:yoh means 'someone who has [someone else's] name.", pero entiendo que ha de traducirse como "el que tiene nombre" (de ah?, "renombrado, famoso"), pero no veo la relaci?n con la circunstancia de que dos personas compartan un mismo nombre. Sigue sin quedar claro, para m?. Respecto a la interesante aportaci?n de Jorge de Buen, s?lo decir que he encontrado el t?rmino en cuesti?n en una fecha anterior a la que das ("the word _tocayo,_ in the Spanish literature, had it first appearance in Spain (1820).") en el Diccionario de Autoridades (1726-1739) ya aparece: "TOCAYO, YA. adj. Lo mismo que Colombro?o." "COLOMBRO?O. f.m. El que tiene el mismo nombre que otro." Este diccionario, y el de la Real Academia de la Lengua Espa?ola, puede consultarse en: < www.rae.es - Recursos - Biblioteca Virtual > A seguir bien... -- Carlos Santamarina ------------------------------ ------------------------------ From jessh827 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 11 00:14:27 2000 From: jessh827 at yahoo.com (J H) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:14:27 -0700 Subject: Cubanascnan Message-ID: The original location of the Uto-Aztecan languages was the US-Mexico border area. The Mexica and other Nahuatl-speaking peoples even remembered, when they were were honest, about how their ancestors had been desert nomads out of the north. Jess Harvey --- Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Maybe Dave was referring to its more original > location. :) > > > > On Wed, 5 Jul 2000, John Sullivan wrote: > > > Just an observation. I think Nahuatl is based in > many more places than just > > the central highlands. The fifty-plus native > speakers of nahuatl from the > > Huasteca who are currently persuing their > university studies in Zacatecas > > would certainly be quick to point this out. > > John Sullivan > > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > > > > on 7/5/00 8:19 AM, David L. Frye at > dfrye at umich.edu wrote: > > > > > 1. No, there is no relation between the > (extinct) Taino language of Cuba > > > and Nahuatl. Most linguistic reconstructions > have Taino languages coming > > > from South America into the Caribbean, not from > Middle America. Even if > > > there were relationships between any > Mesoamerican language and Taino, it > > > would much more likely be with Maya (since Maya > speakers were the > > > sea-faring ones -- Nahuatl was based in the > central highlands, far from > > > the sea). There is the one example of "hurakan," > the word for hurricane in > > > both Yucatec Maya and Taino. > > > > > > 2. Isn't it Cubanacan, not Cubanascnan? I have > never heard the latter. You > > > see the form Cubanacan all over Cuba. > > > > > > 3. A good place to start would be a book about > the Taino, such as Irving > > > Rouse's. > > > > > > David Frye, University of Michigan > > > > > > > > > > Michael McCafferty > 307 Memorial Hall > Indiana University > Bloomington, Indiana > 47405 > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > ******************************************************************************* > "So, who you gonna believe, > me or your own eyes?" > > -Chico Marx > > ******************************************************************************* > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From fjgs at servidor.unam.mx Tue Jul 11 03:00:56 2000 From: fjgs at servidor.unam.mx (Ehecatecolotl) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 21:00:56 -0600 Subject: Tocayo Message-ID: Re: Tocayo-snip- >By the way, if a word is possessed (with to- 'our' for instance), it cannot end is -tl. Just a brief remark on Frances brilliant comment. Wouldn?t tonacayotl (nuestro sustento) vs tonacayo (nuestra carne) be an exception to the afore mentioned? From pkurtboke at pop.hotkey.net.au Tue Jul 11 07:18:26 2000 From: pkurtboke at pop.hotkey.net.au (P. Kurtboke) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:18:26 +1000 Subject: address change In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20000620092236.00bc6e20@selway.umt.edu> Message-ID: John, sorry to bother you about this. I'm moving back to Europe soon and this e-mail account is about to be disactivated. Would it be possible to direct messages to my hotmail account ? Many thanks Petek From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Tue Jul 11 10:41:48 2000 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:41:48 GMT Subject: Tocayo Message-ID: Someone wrote:- > By the way, if a word is possessed (with to- 'our' for instance), it cannot > end is -tl Ehecatecolotl wrote:- > Just a brief remark on Frances brilliant comment. > Wouldn?t tonacayotl (nuestro sustento) vs tonacayo (nuestra carne) be an > exception to the aforementioned? Are there any nouns whose STEM ends in -tl? What happens to them in unpossessed singulars where most nouns add -tli? How is double {tl} usually written? From karttu at nantucket.net Tue Jul 11 10:56:04 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 06:56:04 -0400 Subject: Tocayo Message-ID: >> Wouldn?t tonacayotl (nuestro sustento) vs tonacayo (nuestra carne) be an >> exception to the aforementioned? No, this is not an exception. It is a misanalysis. To:naca:yo:tl is derived from to:na, and the initial /to:/ is not a possessive prefix. There is a vowel-length difference. To:naca:yo:tl means 'daily sustenance' not 'our sustenance.' Tonacayo 'our own flesh' is derived from naca-tl. When it is inalienably possessed, it adds the possessive prefix to the front and the suffix -yo to the end. Without the -yo, tonaca means 'our meat' in the sense of meat one has bought in the market. About stem-final -tl, the Nahuatl original source of the word metate is metlatl. When possessed, it drops not only the -tl, but also the /a/ preceding the -tl. (This dropping of vowels along with the absolutive suffix to form the possessed stem applies to quite a few nouns ending in -a and -i.) So 'my metate' is nometl. No occasion arises to add another -tl to this form. In compounds, metlatl doesn't drop its final vowel, as in metlapi:lli 'mano de metate.' There has been a further question about deriving 'fame' from 'namesake'. Let me reiterate that the derivations are different. The derived word meaning 'namesake' is made with the suffix -yoh, and the derived word meaning 'fame' is made with the different suffix -yo:-tl. Only the traditional spelling, which does not indicate vowel length and saltillo (h), obscures the fact that these are different. I'd like to urge people with questions along these lines to consult either J. Richard Andrews's Introduction to Classical Nahuatl or Joe Campbell's and my Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar. Debating them on Nahuat-L and restating on-line what is available in print isn't the best use of time. It also leads to dissemination of ideas that don't stand up to scrutiny--a major problem for Nahuat-L users, just as it is for anyone seeking information via internet. For accessibility of the Foundation Course, go to www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL. Then click on "Enter here for the Gateway to Nahuatl links." From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Tue Jul 11 14:07:16 2000 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 14:07:16 GMT Subject: To P.Kurtboke Message-ID: I am extremely sorry to have to inflict this on the whole list. To Mr.P.Kurtboke: Thank you for your message. When I replied to it, some email relayer bounced my reply back to me with a fault remark, as below. I sent the message again, and the same happened again. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date sent: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:54:13 +1000 (EST) From: MAILER-DAEMON at hotkey.net.au (Mail Delivery System) Subject: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender To: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk This is the Postfix program at host mail.hotkey.net.au. I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned below could not be delivered to one or more destinations. For further assistance, please contact If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own text from the message returned below. The Postfix program : mail for pop.hotkey.net.au loops back to myself From heatherhess at hotmail.com Tue Jul 11 15:51:33 2000 From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:51:33 PDT Subject: Directions Message-ID: Could someone please tell me the correct colors for the Aztlan directions - and as well the perspective the directions are laid out! I have seen references to the directions and colors and they differ immensely! What is the correct source for this! Thanks! Yolohtzin ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From malinal at evhr.net Tue Jul 11 19:19:12 2000 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:19:12 +0200 Subject: nahuatl nouns with specific object prefixe Message-ID: Remi Simeon in his ?Dictionnaire de la langue nahuatl? listed some deverbal nouns whose verbal stem have kept a specific object prefixe ??qui-?, for instance nouns such as QUIXNENEUILILIZTLI, for ?qu-i:xnehnehui-liztli?, ?likeness? or QUITEMMATILIZTLI for ?qui-te:mmati-liztli?, ?negligence?. Theese nouns don?t appear in the ?Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellana? from Molina and this formation seems to be irregular. What is happened ? Can such forms appear in texts ? In Cod.Flor. is QUITE:MMATITL, ?a neglectful one? to find, a form with absolutive suffixe and direct-object prefixe. Are some rules for these irregularities ? Any help would be very useful. Thankfully. Alexis. From scalderon at spin.com.mx Wed Jul 12 21:53:46 2000 From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:53:46 -0500 Subject: my page Message-ID: I have updated my page on nahuatl http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/nahuatl.html Salvador Calder?n From melesan at pacbell.net Thu Jul 13 00:15:26 2000 From: melesan at pacbell.net (melesan at pacbell.net) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:15:26 -0700 Subject: my page Message-ID: Hello Salvador, Thank you for sharing your webpage. 2 things I'd like to discuss with you: How would one say teacher in Nahuatl. I know calmecac was the training venue for eagle and jaguar trainees. #2 take a look at some of the poetry/art in Spanish my high school students at Santa Ana High School put together. Any criticism would be appreciated. Not honor students, just regular students of all levels in Spanish for Spanish speakers. http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/calmexica?d&.flabel=fld3&.src=ph http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/calmexica?d&.flabel=fld1&.src=ph Translations to English will be put up later. Take care, Mel Sanchez Salvador Calder?n wrote: > I have updated my page on nahuatl > > http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/nahuatl.html > > Salvador Calder?n From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at Thu Jul 13 05:51:14 2000 From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 07:51:14 +0200 Subject: my page Message-ID: teacher=temachtiani melesan at pacbell.net schrieb: > Hello Salvador, > > Thank you for sharing your webpage. 2 things I'd like to discuss with > you: > > How would one say teacher in Nahuatl. I know calmecac was the training > venue for eagle and jaguar trainees. > > #2 take a look at some of the poetry/art in Spanish my high school > students at Santa Ana High School put together. Any criticism would be > appreciated. Not honor students, just regular students of all levels in > Spanish for Spanish speakers. > > http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/calmexica?d&.flabel=fld3&.src=ph > > http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/calmexica?d&.flabel=fld1&.src=ph > > Translations to English will be put up later. > > Take care, > > Mel Sanchez > > Salvador Calder?n wrote: > > > I have updated my page on nahuatl > > > > http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/nahuatl.html > > > > Salvador Calder?n -- Juergen Stowasser Burggasse 114/2/8 A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a Austria tel: 01/ 524 54 60 0676/ 398 66 79 http://www.univie.ac.at/meso/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Fri Jul 14 16:02:20 2000 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:02:20 GMT Subject: the -ti- in -titlan in placenames Message-ID: Frances Karttunen wrote:- > -tla:n with a long vowel is a locative meaning 'place of, at.' It doesn't > take the ligature -ti-. The short-vowel postposition -tlan 'at the base of, > below, next to' takes -ti- when bound to nouns to form place names but not in > ordinary postpositional constructions. It can go either way with body parts. Excuse a somewhat woolly idea, but I seem to remember hearing that -ti- can mean "become", as in the placename Teo-ti-huacan = "god-become-place" = "the place where men bacome gods". If so, could placenames of the type X-titlan have originally meant "X become next_to" = "place where you come to be next to X"? E.g. Tenochtitlan might have meant once "place where you come to be next to rocks and prickly pears". Such precision in thinking by people naming places seems to vary between different peoples: e,g, English-speakers might set up a settlement and call it "Church Hill", and Welsh-speakers might call it "Bryn Eglwys", routinely and unremarkably; but Nahuatl seems to realise that a hill is one thing and a village is another thing, and would call the settlement not "Teocaltepetl", but "Teocaltepec" = "_at_ the temple hill". From snoguez at juno.com Fri Jul 14 16:24:42 2000 From: snoguez at juno.com (Susan H Noguez) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:24:42 -0500 Subject: the -ti- in -titlan in placenames Message-ID: Dear Listeros: I vaguely remember having had a long discussion about the meaning of Teotihuacan in 1999. Did we decide that the best translation would be "The Place of Apotheosis"?? Now I'm still working with place names in the various manuscripts, and to me it's still a puzzle the difference between "Popocatepetl" and "Popocatepec", a word never seen in the codices or Colonial Nahuatl texts. The reason might be something linked with the cosmovision. As Mr. Appleyard says: "...a hill is one thing and a village (altepetl) is another thing..." Any input about the matter will be welcome Saludos Xavier Noguez On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:02:20 GMT "Anthony Appleyard" writes: > Frances Karttunen wrote:- >> -tla:n with a long vowel is a locative meaning 'place of, at.' It >doesn't >> take the ligature -ti-. The short-vowel postposition -tlan 'at the >base of, >> below, next to' takes -ti- when bound to nouns to form place names >but not in >> ordinary postpositional constructions. It can go either way with >body parts. > >Excuse a somewhat woolly idea, but I seem to remember hearing that >-ti- can >mean "become", as in the placename Teo-ti-huacan = "god-become-place" >= "the >place where men bacome gods". If so, could placenames of the type >X-titlan >have originally meant "X become next_to" = "place where you come to be >next to >X"? E.g. Tenochtitlan might have meant once "place where you come to >be next >to rocks and prickly pears". Such precision in thinking by people >naming >places seems to vary between different peoples: e,g, English-speakers >might >set up a settlement and call it "Church Hill", and Welsh-speakers >might call >it "Bryn Eglwys", routinely and unremarkably; but Nahuatl seems to >realise >that a hill is one thing and a village is another thing, and would >call the >settlement not "Teocaltepetl", but "Teocaltepec" = "_at_ the temple >hill". From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Jul 15 00:53:33 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 20:53:33 -0400 Subject: the -ti- in -titlan in placenames Message-ID: > Now I'm still working with place names in the various manuscripts, and to > me it's still a puzzle the difference between "Popocatepetl" and > "Popocatepec." Tepe:-tl is the word for 'hill, mountain' The stem is tepe:- Tepe:-c is the stem with the locative suffix -c/-co. (The form -co is added to stems that end in consonants, and the form -c is added to stems that end in vowels.) So tepe:c is that locative of tepe:tl. The difference is between the hill itself and the location. Fran From pmelgar at wamcomputers.com.ar Tue Jul 18 02:26:17 2000 From: pmelgar at wamcomputers.com.ar (Pat Melgar) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:26:17 -0300 Subject: nahuatl translators Message-ID: I am currently looking for Nahuatl translators for a scientific project. Interested persons, please contact me asap with cv and rates. Thank you. ----------------- Pat Melgar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pmelgar at wamcomputers.com.ar Tue Jul 18 02:40:14 2000 From: pmelgar at wamcomputers.com.ar (Pat Melgar) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:40:14 -0300 Subject: RV: nahuatl translators Message-ID: I am currently looking for Nahuatl translators for a scientific project. Interested persons, please contact me asap with cv and rates. Thank you. ----------------- Pat Melgar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lemarc at attglobal.net Tue Jul 18 20:43:54 2000 From: lemarc at attglobal.net (Marc Eisinger) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:43:54 +0200 Subject: Reference Message-ID: Frances If I remember well now it is IJAL 52(1986)188-196. By the way, I'm a grand father, a little girl, Mathilde, from Sebastien and Maria-Julia ... That the way it goes. Say hello to AL, Marc Frances Karttunen wrote: > Dear Marc, > > I have been searching through my files for a copy of Una's review and > haven't found it. Did you locate it on Bill Bright's web site? > > Fran > > ---------- > >From: Marc Eisinger > >To: Nahuat-l > >Subject: Reference > >Date: Sun, Jul 2, 2000, 6:39 AM > > > > > I'm looking for the issue number of IJAL where > > Una Canger made the review of France Karttunen's > > Analytical Dictionnary of Nahuatl. > > Thank you > > Marc Eisinger > > > > > > -- War does not determine who is right - only who is left (Anonymous) From lemarc at attglobal.net Tue Jul 18 21:41:19 2000 From: lemarc at attglobal.net (Marc Eisinger) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:41:19 +0200 Subject: Apologies Message-ID: I'm sorry, I used a "reply" without noting that it was to the list and not to Frances. Please excuse me. Marc From pkurtboke at hotmail.com Wed Jul 19 07:27:45 2000 From: pkurtboke at hotmail.com (petek kurtboke) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:27:45 GMT Subject: affixes Message-ID: is a full list of Nahuatl affixes available online? thanks petek ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Thu Jul 20 14:25:22 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:25:22 -0600 Subject: Fun in Ancient America Message-ID: >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:53:55 -0400 >Reply-To: "Jeffrey C. Splitstoser" >Sender: Pre-Columbian History >From: "Jeffrey C. Splitstoser" >Organization: Center for Ancient American Studies >Subject: AN, ME, NO: Fun in Ancient America >To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU > > >THE PRE-COLUMBIAN SOCIETY OF WASHINGTON, D.C., announces a one-day >symposium entitled, > >"ARE WE HAVING FUN YET? PLEASURABLE ACTIVITIES IN ANCIENT AMERICA" > >Saturday, September 16, 2000, 9:30 a.m. - 6:00 p.m. > >Conveniently located at the U.S. Navy Memorial & Naval Heritage Center >in downtown Washington, D.C., 701 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, between 7th >and 9th Streets (next to the Archives/Navy Memorial Station on Metro's >Green and Yellow lines) > > >SYNOPSIS: > >Centuries of scholarship have revealed much about life in ancient >America. But to what extent is this understanding, reflective of our own >biases and assumptions, skewed by an over-emphasis on the role of ritual >and symbolic meaning? Didn't ancient Americans ever just kick back and >relax? Didn't they ever just sit and joke, play games, or watch the >clouds go by? Did everything have symbolic meaning? > >Whether or not "leisure" is purely a Western concept, pre-Columbian >peoples certainly seemed to have had fun. Spanish chroniclers cite >references to board games, foot races, feasting, and drinking. Many of >these activities are depicted in art, and a few traces have been found >from archaeology. > >In this ground-breaking symposium, scholars will participate in the >first-ever study of what we know about this fascinating and surprisingly >neglected aspect of ancient American society-forms of fun and >entertainment. Through slide-illustrated lectures, experts will use art >and ethnohistorical and archaeological data to examine pleasure-seeking >activities including Aztec children's games and pleasure palaces, Maya >means of merriment, the Mesoamerican ball-game, and North American dice >games. > > >PARTICIPANTS: > >Jeffrey Quilter, Dumbarton Oaks, "At Work, Rest, or Play? The Question >of Leisure in Ancient America" > >Susan Toby Evans, Pennsylvania State University, "'Mid Pleasures and >Palaces: Aztec Nobles at Home and at Play" > >Jill Leslie McKeever-Furst, Moore College of Art and Design & University >of Pennsylvania Museum, "Compulsory Play: The Leisure Activities of >Aztec Children and Youths" > >Warren R. DeBoer, Queens College, CUNY, "Of Dice and Women: Gambling and >Exchange in Native North America" > >Karl Taube, University of California, Riverside, "American Gladiators: >Competitive Combat in Ancient Mesoamerica" > >Justin Kerr, Kerr Associates, New York, "A Good Time was had by All: Fun >and Games among the Ancient Maya" > > >FURTHER INFORMATION: > >For a brochure with complete details including costs, registration form, >and hotel accommodations, please send your name and address to >leisure at ancientamerica.net. From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Jul 25 14:36:46 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:36:46 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Convocatoria para encuentro sobre patrimonio intangible Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:38:05 -0600 >From: H-M?xico Moderadores >To: Grupo sobre Historia de Mexico >Subject: Convocatoria para encuentro sobre patrimonio intangible >Sender: owner-h-mexico at servidor.unam.mx > >R?plicas con: deas.inah at mailer.main.conacyt.mx > >Convocatoria para encuentro sobre patrimonio intangible > >El Seminario de Estudios sobre el Patrimonio Cultural de la Direcci?n de > >Etnolog?a y Antropolog?a Social del INAH convoca al : >ENCUENTRO ACAD?MICO. > >EL PATRIMONIO INTANGIBLE: >INVESTIGACIONES RECIENTES Y PROPUESTAS >PARA SU PROTECCION > > >Que tendr? lugar los d?as 28 y 29 de septiembre de 2000 en el Auditorio >Fray >Bernardino de Sahag?n del Museo Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia, >Paseo >de la Reforma y Gandhi, Chapultepec, de 9 a 14 hrs. y de 16 a 19 hrs. > > >Exposici?n de motivos > > >La definici?n del patrimonio intangible que representa el conocimiento >acumulado de las sociedades humanas del pasado y presente merece ser >analizado, en el marco de las nuevas pol?ticas culturales nacionales e >internacionales, ante la destrucci?n acelerada que enfrentan por el >predominio de nuevos modelos de desarrollo comercial. El patrimonio >intangible requiere una precisi?n definitoria, as? como un marco >jur?dico >que permita su identificaci?n, registro, difusi?n y defensa, otorgando a >sus >poseedores originales la posibilidad de decidir sobre el futuro del >mismo. >El patrimonio cultural enfrenta peligros inminentes, como se observa en >la >proliferaci?n de patentes que pretenden hacer un uso particular del >conocimiento tradicional sobre el manejo de la biodiversidad, as? como >de >las manifestaciones culturales y art?sticas de las comunidades urbanas y > >rurales del pa?s. Por otra parte es necesario reflexionar sobre la >propuesta >internacional de organizaciones como UNESCO que pretende convertir el >patrimonio cultural en elementos detonantes del desarrollo econ?mico de >las >comunidades a trav?s del turismo. > > >TEMARIO > >El marco jur?dico pertinente para la protecci?n del patrimonio >intangible: >especialmente el de las culturas ind?genas y campesinas, que comprenden >entre otros sectores importantes, los que a continuaci?n se enumeran: > >El patrimonio ling??stico del pa?s, con referencia especial a las >lenguas >ind?genas en peligro de extinci?n >El patrimonio cient?fico y tecnol?gico aportado por las culturas >campesinas >e ind?genas. >El patrimonio artesanal. >El patrimonio musical, danc?stico y dram?tico. >Las leyes de protecci?n de derecho de autor y el patrimonio cultural >intangible >Las leyes de protecci?n de marcas y patentes en torno a este patrimonio >La protecci?n del patrimonio intangible en la legislaci?n federal y >estatal. >Tareas pertinentes para la conservaci?n del patrimonio intangible >La difusi?n del patrimonio intangible >Relaci?n entre el patrimonio intangible y tangible > > >Din?mica de participaci?n > >La asistencia a este encuentro como ponente o asistente estar? abierto a > >los interesados en el tema. >Los ponentes enviar?n su resumen al Seminario de Estudios sobre >Patrimonio >Cultural de la Direcci?n de Etnolog?a y Antropolog?a Social del >Instituto >Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia con la Lic. Leticia Rojas Guzm?n, a >la >direcci?n: Ex Convento de El Carmen, Av. Revoluci?n 4 y 6 esq. >Monasterio, >San Angel, D.F. C.P. 01000. Tels: 5616-50-58, 5550-80-43 y Fax: >5616-20-73; >o v?a correo electr?nico con las coordinadoras del seminario Lucero >Morales >Cano y/o Susana Gurrola . > >Correos electr?nicos: >deas.inah at mailer.main.conacyt.mx >inah_cano at hotmail.com >susnanavg at terra.com.mx > >La fecha l?mite para la entrega de res?menes es el 4 de agosto de 2000. >Durante los d?as del evento las ponencias se entregar?n en original y >disquete, preferentemente en Word 97, para su publicaci?n. > > >********************* >H-MEXICO, Grupo sobre historia de M?xico >afiliado a H-Net, Humanities and Social Sciences on Line >http://h-net.msu.edu > > > Moderadores > Antonio Ibarra * Felipe Castro > ibarrara at servidor.unam.mx fcastro at servidor.unam.mx > > > >CONSULTA NUESTRO SITIO WEB http://www.h-mexico.unam.mx > >?INSCRIBITE EN LA LISTA DE INVESTIGADORES DE LA PAGINA WEB! > > >***** John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/provost/ From megged at uclink4.berkeley.edu Wed Jul 26 17:50:49 2000 From: megged at uclink4.berkeley.edu (amos megged) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:50:49 -0700 Subject: "Tlal" Message-ID: I am a colonial historian currently working on the theme of indigenous memory in the Mexico Basin between 1530 and 1580, and in particular on the significance of limits and corner-stones in pictorial and testimonial memory. Looking at your Analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, I am a bit perplexed by something that might offer a real conceptual link between "land" and "memory", and I very much hope that you would be able to guide me on this: Under the entry "Tlalcahua, you write that, Tlalcahuia morphologically contrasts with tla-lcahu(a)<(i)cahu(a)l "to forget something"..while Molina has tlalcaualli with both meanings of "something forgotten" and uncultivated land". Is it very possible, conceptually, that the 'tla' prefix, which signifies "something" ("material") is also very much derived from tlal=land, and so, that, something forsaken is really related to land, as the most basic ideal type for memorizing? Am I farfetched with this assumption? I will be much grateful for your clarification on this point. Prof. Amos Megged Visiting Scholar, UC Berkeley (CLAS) From mdmorris at indiana.edu Wed Jul 26 19:32:09 2000 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:32:09 -0500 Subject: "Tlal" In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000726104926.0095e870@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Amos, Tlalcahua as something forgotten is composed of the non-specific something prefix tla and the verb ilcahua, which I would break into il- denoting something "mental" and cahua, "to leave," e.g. niccahua in comitl itech mocal," I left my bowl at your house. best, Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at Wed Jul 26 20:29:12 2000 From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:29:12 +0200 Subject: "Tlal" Message-ID: I?m not a linguist but in my opinion that?s a case of homonyms: (1) tlalca(h)ua, tlalca(h)ualli: tlal[li] = land + ca(h)ua = stop, finish (2) tlalca(h)a, tlalca(h)ualli: tla=algo + ilcaua = forget Saludos Juergen Stowasser, Vienna amos megged schrieb: > I am a colonial historian currently working on the theme of indigenous > memory in the Mexico Basin between 1530 and 1580, and in particular on the > significance of limits and corner-stones in pictorial and testimonial > memory. Looking at your Analytical dictionary of Nahuatl, I am a bit > perplexed by something that might offer a real conceptual link between > "land" and "memory", and I very much hope that you would be able to guide > me on this: > Under the entry "Tlalcahua, you write that, Tlalcahuia morphologically > contrasts with tla-lcahu(a)<(i)cahu(a)l "to forget something"..while Molina > has tlalcaualli with both meanings of "something forgotten" and > uncultivated land". Is it very possible, conceptually, that the 'tla' > prefix, which signifies "something" ("material") is also very much derived > from tlal=land, and so, that, something forsaken is really related to land, > as the most basic ideal type for memorizing? Am I farfetched with this > assumption? > > I will be much grateful for your clarification on this point. > > Prof. Amos Megged > Visiting Scholar, > UC Berkeley (CLAS) -- Juergen Stowasser Burggasse 114/2/8 A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a Austria tel: 01/ 524 54 60 v 0676/ 398 66 79 http://www.univie.ac.at/meso From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Wed Jul 26 20:18:30 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:18:30 -0600 Subject: "Tlal" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think that Amos' question actually has to do the the indefintie object affix -tla It seems to me that he is questioning whether or not deep down that -tla is somehow related to the stem -tlal for earth/dirt. J. F. Schwaller John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/Nahuatl From karttu at nantucket.net Wed Jul 26 20:35:05 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 16:35:05 -0400 Subject: "Tlal" Message-ID: >From: Mark David Morris >To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >Subject: Re: "Tlal" >Date: Wed, Jul 26, 2000, 3:32 PM > > Amos, > > Tlalcahua as something forgotten is composed of the non-specific something > prefix tla and the verb ilcahua, which I would break into il- denoting > something "mental" and cahua, "to leave," e.g. niccahua in comitl itech > mocal," I left my bowl at your house. > > best, > Mark This is a case where attention to vowel length distinctions is very helpful. tla:lca:hua 'to give up land/place' < tla:l 'land' and ca:hua 'to leave, relinguish something' tlalca:hua 'to forget some nonspecific thing' < tla- (nonspecific object prefix) and (i)lca:hua 'to forget something' (The (i) is in parenthesis to indicate that it drops out when prefixes like tla-, no-, and mo- precede it.) tlalca:huilli is a noun derived from tla-(i)lca:hua and means 'something forgotten or forgettable' It's not derived in any way from tla:l-li 'land.' Just because vowel-length marking was not part of the orthography of Nahuatl (with the helpful exception of writers associated with Horacio Carochi) doesn't mean that distinctive vowel length was not attended to by Nahuatl speakers. There is a world of false etymology out there (lots in Simeon's dictionary) that has arisen from failure to pay attention to contrastive vowel length. Fran Karttunen