From fjgs at servidor.unam.mx Fri Jun 2 03:07:10 2000 From: fjgs at servidor.unam.mx (Ehecatecolotl) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:07:10 -0600 Subject: 1st person honorifics? Message-ID: <> > The books say that using honorifics of oneself in Nahuatl is not done because > it would seem too pompous. But are there any examples of it found in the > literature. perhaps to achieve a special effect? (Chinese has an example: a > pronoun pronounced "ching", written by a special character, which could be > fairly translated as {nehhua:tzin}; only the Emperor was allowed to use it!) I understand the honorific used for one´s self is acceptable if the person is being condescendent to him/herself, conveying the meaning of "poor me, incapable of such or such deed", therefore, the situation mentioned by Francestzin applies just fine or when the person is ill, etc. From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 16:20:06 2000 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Mr. Tezozomoc) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:20:06 PDT Subject: 1st person honorifics? Message-ID: The nahuatl people did not use it but the friars did certainly pump themselves up..... Here is a piece from Fray Juan Gaona's peace and tranquility: Fray Ioa: de Gaona, sant Francisco teopixqui, vei teotlatol- matini. Auh quinaxcan, occeppa Yancuican oquimopatili, oquimoc xitoquili, in cenca mauiztililoni to tlazotatzin Fray Miguel de zasare vei teotlatolmatini, yuan Comissa rio gn~al itechpa in santa cruzada, nica:ipa: >From: "Ehecatecolotl" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >To: >Subject: 1st person honorifics? >Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:07:10 -0600 > ><> > > The books say that using honorifics of oneself in Nahuatl is not done >because > > it would seem too pompous. But are there any examples of it found in the > > literature. perhaps to achieve a special effect? (Chinese has an >example: >a > > pronoun pronounced "ching", written by a special character, which could >be > > fairly translated as {nehhua:tzin}; only the Emperor was allowed to use >it!) > > >I understand the honorific used for one�s self is acceptable if the person >is being condescendent to him/herself, conveying the meaning of "poor me, >incapable of such or such deed", therefore, the situation mentioned by >Francestzin applies just fine or when the person is ill, etc. > > > > ---------------------------------------- View my epidemic.com e-mail graphics! http://www.epidemic.com/myepimall.jhtml?emid=42448 ---------------------------------------- http://www.epidemic.com/?emid=42448 The e-mail or Internet service provider used for this e-mail is not affiliated with any advertisements you may see. (Get details at http://www.epidemic.com/public/disclaimer.html) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Amapohuani at aol.com Fri Jun 2 18:35:49 2000 From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:35:49 EDT Subject: 1st person honorifics? Message-ID: Listeros: Re first person honorifics. The last posting is included at the end of this message. The citation is from one of the pages just preliminary to page one of fray Juan de Gaona's COLLOQVIOS DE la paz, y tranquilidad Christiana, en lengua Mexicana (1582, Pedro Ocharte). Fray Miguel de Zarate prepared this edition of his deceased colleague. Zarate (under EXAMEN) twice indicates that he "corrected" the original, acting under the orders of the then-provincial of the Provincia del Santa Evangelio. Just before page one is a page that begins 'COLLOQVIOS DE la paz" [etc.] that includes the information that they are "agora nueuamente corregidos, y anadidos, y puesta auctoridades, y citados los lugares por el muy. R. Padre Fray Miguel de carate" etc. [I leave out special characters since they do not go well over cyberspace.] What was cited is essentially a loose translation from the Spanish of this page to the Nahuatl of the next page where the citation is taken from. This is standard Nahuatl for the subject matter and not more or less honorific than anything else you might encounter in similar texts, or even in those done by Nahuas for their own purposes; also see how Chimalpahin writes about various clerics. A Nahua or a cleric could have written it - literally, since Nahuas helped many times with texts (published or manuscript) and the author of record was more of a supervisor than the actual writer per se. In this case (see prologue in fray Juan Baptista's sermonario of 1606) we know that the trilingual (Latin/Nahuatl/Spanish) Nahua, Hernando de Ribas, who helped Molina with his grammar and dictionary, also apparently helped Gaona with this work (called by Baptista "Dialogos" if I am not mistaken). Baptista's own extensive corpus was entirely co-authored by Augustin de la Fuente, who was also the "corrector de lengua" of fray Juan de Mijanos', OSA, ESPEJO DIUINO of 1607. In any case this is exactly how people wrote about themselves in such situations - not in the first person, but as if they were writing about someone else [and it may have been Ribas or some other Nahua who literally wrote the cited passage]. It would be an incompetent friar, and an even more incompetent Nahua teacher and aide of theirs, who would let any cleric write "nehuatzin" or the like. Literally using first-person honorifics in the first person would have made any Nahua aide/teacher shudder, and marked the friar as lingustically impaired. This brings to mind the passage in the BANCROFT DIALOGUES where the priest replies in a flat non-honorific Nahuatl to a query, and to Book 12 of the FLORENTINE CODEX where Cortes (through his interpreter) speaks in the same way - in a traditional Nahua context, real gaffes and marks (from a Nahua-centric point of view) of a complete barbarian [with apologies to any who feel I am slamming the barbarians too much]. In general, my take on the friars/clerics who used Nahuatl is that they were pretty careful about their use of honorific/reverential forms, perhaps too much so at times. Ye ixquich. Barry D. Sell In a message dated 6/2/00 8:24:45 AM, tezozomoc at hotmail.com writes: << The nahuatl people did not use it but the friars did certainly pump themselves up..... Here is a piece from Fray Juan Gaona's peace and tranquility: Fray Ioa: de Gaona, sant Francisco teopixqui, vei teotlatol- matini. Auh quinaxcan, occeppa Yancuican oquimopatili, oquimoc xitoquili, in cenca mauiztililoni to tlazotatzin Fray Miguel de zasare vei teotlatolmatini, yuan Comissa rio gn~al itechpa in santa cruzada, nica:ipa: >From: "Ehecatecolotl" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >To: >Subject: 1st person honorifics? >Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:07:10 -0600 > ><> > > The books say that using honorifics of oneself in Nahuatl is not done >because > > it would seem too pompous. But are there any examples of it found in the > > literature. perhaps to achieve a special effect? (Chinese has an >example: >a > > pronoun pronounced "ching", written by a special character, which could >be > > fairly translated as {nehhua:tzin}; only the Emperor was allowed to use >it!) > > >I understand the honorific used for one´s self is acceptable if the person >is being condescendent to him/herself, conveying the meaning of "poor me, >incapable of such or such deed", therefore, the situation mentioned by >Francestzin applies just fine or when the person is ill, etc. >> From mdmorris at indiana.edu Mon Jun 5 14:54:29 2000 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:54:29 -0500 Subject: Language Families In-Reply-To: <200005302031.QAA17883@nantucket.net> Message-ID: With so many good linguists on the list, I hope someone might confirm or correct my understanding that neither Finnish, Hungarian nor Basque are Indo-European languages. Thanks, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From J.Kremers at let.kun.nl Mon Jun 5 15:40:42 2000 From: J.Kremers at let.kun.nl (Joost Kremers) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:40:42 +0200 Subject: Language Families In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 09:54 5-6-00 -0500, you wrote: >With so many good linguists on the list, I hope someone might confirm or >correct my understanding that neither Finnish, Hungarian nor Basque are >Indo-European languages. Thanks, Mark Morris this, i can confirm. finnish and hungarian are part of the finno-ugric language family (i.e., they're related, but about as mutually intelligible as russian and english), and basque is an isolate. some seek ties between basque and georgian, but AFAIK those ties have not been established. HTH joost kremers -------------------------------------------------------- Joost Kremers (Mr.) University of Nijmegen - The Netherlands Department of Languages and Cultures of the Middle-East PO Box 9103 6500 HD Nijmegen - The Netherlands phone: +31 24 3612996 fax: +31 24 3611972 From robc at csufresno.edu Mon Jun 5 16:45:20 2000 From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert G. Comegys) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:45:20 -0700 Subject: Language Families Message-ID: Hi Mark, Finnish and Hungarian are Turkish languages, although Hungarian has been thoroughly saturated with Slavic loan words, something like the way English, a good Germanic language, is loaded with French. (My apologies to the Germans, the French, and the English.) Basque? Who knows. Its usually considered an isolate by most "responsible" (read dull and uninteresting) scholars. Regards, John Comegys Mark David Morris wrote: > With so many good linguists on the list, I hope someone might confirm or > correct my understanding that neither Finnish, Hungarian nor Basque are > Indo-European languages. Thanks, Mark Morris > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jun 5 17:10:41 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 12:10:41 -0500 Subject: Language Families In-Reply-To: <393BD91D.4DF34877@csufresno.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Robert G. Comegys wrote: > Hi Mark, > > Finnish and Hungarian are Turkish languages, although Hungarian has been > thoroughly saturated with Slavic loan words, something like the way English, a > good Germanic language, is loaded with French. (My apologies to the Germans, > the French, and the English.) Avoue'. > > Basque? Who knows. Its usually considered an isolate by most "responsible" > (read dull and uninteresting) scholars. John, Does total lack of evidence imply that the scholars who have looked at the matter are dull and uninteresting? Correct me if I have this wrong, but the Basque are a pre-Indo-European genetic-linguistic group, ancient european inhabitants, and genetically connected to the Irish. Who knows? Perhaps, they are also connected to the folks found near the coast of Virginia in paleo-indian times that were mentioned recently in the media. Michael > > Regards, > > John Comegys > Mark David Morris wrote: > > > With so many good linguists on the list, I hope someone might confirm or > > correct my understanding that neither Finnish, Hungarian nor Basque are > > Indo-European languages. Thanks, Mark Morris > > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "So, who you gonna believe, me or your own eyes?" -Chico Marx ******************************************************************************* From mdmorris at indiana.edu Mon Jun 5 17:46:52 2000 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 12:46:52 -0500 Subject: Language Families In-Reply-To: <393BD91D.4DF34877@csufresno.edu> Message-ID: Thank you all for the quick responses. Now, I can print my footnotes. I had it understood from working as a folklore bibliographer for the MLA that Hungarian and Finnish seem to show influence from Mongolia. If you have any quetions about classical Chinese intruments Imight be able to squirt out a fact or two from the same storage bank. mochantzinco, Atlihuetzia Tlaxcala ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at Mon Jun 5 18:29:46 2000 From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 20:29:46 +0200 Subject: Language Families Message-ID: "Robert G. Comegys" schrieb:, > Finnish and Hungarian are Turkish languages, -- as Joost Kremer already pointed, Finnish and Hungarian belong to the "Finno-Ugric" language family (together with some smaller languages like Samojedic); the Turk languages belong - as well as the Mongolic - to the "Altai"-family. Both Turk and Finno-Ugric are agglutinative languages but I ´ve never heard of a "superfamily" Finno-Ugric/Altai (but I´m not a linguist so maybe some list member can clear this up) Ciao, Juergen Juergen Stowasser Burggasse 114/2/8 A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a Austria tel: 01/ 524 54 60 0676/ 398 66 79 From TruBluPooh at aol.com Mon Jun 5 18:18:12 2000 From: TruBluPooh at aol.com (TruBluPooh at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:18:12 EDT Subject: Language Families Message-ID: Em uma mensagem de 6/5/00 11:56:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mdmorris at indiana.edu escreveu: << With so many good linguists on the list, I hope someone might confirm or correct my understanding that neither Finnish, Hungarian nor Basque are Indo-European languages. Thanks, Mark Morris >> You are correct in understanding that none of these languages are Indo-European. Finnish and Hungarian belong to the Finno-Ugric family along with such languages as Estonian, Sami, Karelian, Nenets and Khanty. Basque is currently understood to be an isolate language, though a connection to Georgian and other Caucasian languages is being pursued. Other linguists believe it may be related to some non-Arabic North African languages. Yet, others believe it to be entirely in situ. The fact that some basic Basque words seem to be derived from even simpler concepts i.e. aizkora (axe) sharing the same root as the word aitz (rock) may mean that Basque is an extremely old language. John-Francis Fragoso Grasso From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Jun 5 22:19:17 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:19:17 -0400 Subject: Language Families Message-ID: This is true. Finnish and Hungarian belong to the Finno-Ugric language family, and Basque is a language isolate. Fran ---------- >From: Mark David Morris >To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >Subject: Language Families >Date: Mon, Jun 5, 2000, 10:54 AM > > With so many good linguists on the list, I hope someone might confirm or > correct my understanding that neither Finnish, Hungarian nor Basque are > Indo-European languages. Thanks, Mark Morris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more > grief. Eccl 1:18 > > To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To > regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we > are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not > sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 > > MDM, PhD Candidate > Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. > > From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Jun 5 22:24:24 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:24:24 -0400 Subject: Language Families Message-ID: > > Finnish and Hungarian are Turkish languages This is not true. Turkic languages and Finno-Ugric languages have some typological similarities, but Finno-Ugric languages are not "Turkish languages." Fran Karttunen From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Jun 5 22:29:49 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:29:49 -0400 Subject: Language Families Message-ID: > I had it understood from working as a folklore bibliographer for the MLA > that Hungarian and Finnish seem to show influence from Mongolia. There is no direct "influence from Mongolia" on Finnish. There has been some contact between Hungarian and Turkic languages in relatively recent history. Fran Karttunen From micc at home.com Tue Jun 6 04:34:10 2000 From: micc at home.com (mario) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:34:10 -0700 Subject: how do you say? Message-ID: I just received this request......can anyone help me? Hey Compadre, I know your not sleeping yet. Anyway I just had a quick question. How do you say in Nahuatl, You are my friend. Like if you were talking to your close friend and you wanted to tell him, your my friend. Thanks!!!!! mario e. aguilar From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Tue Jun 6 09:35:18 2000 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:35:18 GMT Subject: Language families Message-ID: Frances Karttunen wrote;- > There is no direct "influence from Mongolia" on Finnish. There has been > some contact between Hungarian and Turkic languages in relatively recent > history. There is the inevitable quota of accidental resemblances between unrelated languages, e.g. Gaelic "beag" = Mongolian "baga" = "small", and Greek "theos" = Nahuatl "teotl" = "god". Someone compared modern English with modern Hindi (ignoring recent loanwords). Of the look-alike words that he found, more were accidental resemblances than genuine cognates. Languages gradually drift away from each other. Someone mentioned Basque. My own ideas about Basque are:- (1) It might have been very distantly related to other non-IE languages whose speakers came in up the west end of the Mediterranean: Iberian, Ivernian (an old Irish language), Pictish. But all those languages perished unrecorded. (2) Basque may have undergone a drastic remake in latish prehistoric times, destroying any remaining evidence for old relationships. TruBluPooh at aol.com wrote:- > The fact that some basic Basque words seem to be derived from even simpler > concepts i.e. aizkora (axe) sharing the same root as the word aitz (rock) > may mean that Basque is an extremely old language. But what is an "old language"? Nearly all languages have very old roots. "aizkora" being an apparent compound may mean merely that a previous simple word for "axe" because unusable because of homophony due to phonetic change. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Jun 6 11:17:20 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 06:17:20 -0500 Subject: how do you say? In-Reply-To: <393C7F42.CC1FD5EC@home.com> Message-ID: tinocniuh (classical) tica nocnin (modern) On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, mario wrote: > I just received this request......can anyone help me? > > > Hey Compadre, I know your not sleeping yet. Anyway I just had a quick > question. How do you say in Nahuatl, You are my friend. Like if you were > talking to > your close friend and you wanted to tell him, your my friend. > > Thanks!!!!! > mario e. aguilar > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "So, who you gonna believe, me or your own eyes?" -Chico Marx ******************************************************************************* From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx Tue Jun 6 14:06:01 2000 From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:06:01 -0500 Subject: how do you say? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Modern Huastecan Nahuatl (San Luis Potosí): "Taj tinowampox" or "Taj tinowampoyo" John Sullivan Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas on 6/6/00 6:17 AM, Michael Mccafferty at mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > tinocniuh (classical) > > tica nocnin (modern) > > > > On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, mario wrote: > >> I just received this request......can anyone help me? >> >> >> Hey Compadre, I know your not sleeping yet. Anyway I just had a quick >> question. How do you say in Nahuatl, You are my friend. Like if you were >> talking to >> your close friend and you wanted to tell him, your my friend. >> >> Thanks!!!!! >> mario e. aguilar >> >> > > > Michael McCafferty > 307 Memorial Hall > Indiana University > Bloomington, Indiana > 47405 > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > **************************************************************************** **> * > "So, who you gonna believe, > me or your own eyes?" > > -Chico Marx > > **************************************************************************** **> * > > From micc at home.com Tue Jun 6 14:14:53 2000 From: micc at home.com (mario) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 07:14:53 -0700 Subject: how do you say? Message-ID: Thanks Michael!!!!!!!! Michael Mccafferty wrote: > tinocniuh (classical) > > tica nocnin (modern) > > On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, mario wrote: > > > I just received this request......can anyone help me? > > > > > > Hey Compadre, I know your not sleeping yet. Anyway I just had a quick > > question. How do you say in Nahuatl, You are my friend. Like if you were > > talking to > > your close friend and you wanted to tell him, your my friend. > > > > Thanks!!!!! > > mario e. aguilar > > > > > > Michael McCafferty > 307 Memorial Hall > Indiana University > Bloomington, Indiana > 47405 > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > ******************************************************************************* > "So, who you gonna believe, > me or your own eyes?" > > -Chico Marx > > ******************************************************************************* From leonelhermida at netc.pt Tue Jun 6 14:52:31 2000 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:52:31 +0100 Subject: Language Families Message-ID: Further to the remark that: >The fact that some basic Basque >words seem to be derived from even simpler concepts i.e. aizkora (axe) >sharing the same root as the word aitz (rock) may mean that Basque is an >extremely old language, and in the same sense, I apologize for being off-topic, but can't fail to draw attention to the following very basic Basque words which I'm sure all share the same (pre-historic and exceedingly primitive) root, though I've never seen that stated before by any professional linguist: EME=female AMA=mother EMAKUME=woman EMAZTE= woman, wife UME=child SEME=son On the other hand, I did see it stated by more than one competent linguist (sources available if requested) that the putative (genetic) relationship postulated by some between the Uralic (Finnish, Hungarian, etc.) language family and the Turkic language family (this being known as the Ural-Altaic hypothesis) is far from being proved at all. Of course the statement that Finnish and/or Hungarian are Turkic languages ('Turkish' in stead of 'Turkic' would even be worse) was *never* seriously put forth by any professional (or even amateur) linguist and is, as Fran plainly put it, not true. One last thing while I have your attention, is about the influence of Mongolian on at least one Uralic language, namely Hungarian: it comes to the mind the word *bátor* meaning *brave* which apart from being a fairly common word in Hungarian enters in the very name of the capital city of Mongolia (Ulaan Baator, I think). This must be attributed to historical contact between Turkic and Uralic (better, Hungarian and a few others) on one side and Turkic and Mongolian on the other, rather than being evidence of any (genetic) relationship whatsoever between Uralic and Mongolian. Best, Leonel Hermida -----Original Message----- From: TruBluPooh at aol.com To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Date: Monday, June 05, 2000 7:25 PM Subject: Re: Language Families >Basque is currently understood to be an isolate language, though a connection to >Georgian and other Caucasian languages is being pursued. Other linguists >believe it may be related to some non-Arabic North African languages. Yet, >others believe it to be entirely in situ. The fact that some basic Basque >words seem to be derived from even simpler concepts i.e. aizkora (axe) >sharing the same root as the word aitz (rock) may mean that Basque is an >extremely old language. > >John-Francis Fragoso Grasso From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Tue Jun 6 19:58:47 2000 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:58:47 +0100 Subject: Basque and other relationships Message-ID: Leonel Hermida wrote: > I apologize for being off-topic, but can't fail to draw attention > to the following very basic Basque words which I'm sure all share the > same (pre-historic and exceedingly primitive) root ... EME=female AMA=mother EMAKUME=woman EMAZTE= woman, wife UME=child SEME=son This sort of thing about Basque has been discussed to exhaustion on INDO-EUROPEAN and NOSTRATIC email groups. Words for females with M in are not free from the suspicion of originating with the meaning "mother" or "breast" and being independently imitated ultimately from the same automatic pre-speech suckling noises that babies make. Baby words are likely to get into adult speech as stopgaps when the previous adult words become unusable because of homophony: compare English "nanny" for "child's nurse" to distinguish from "hospital nurse". The Basque speakers have been ruled by Indo-European speakers for so long that many loanwords are likely to have got in, even for family relationships. Compare: English is Germanic, but "uncle" comes from Latin "avunculus". > ... the influence of Mongolian on at least one Uralic language, namely > Hungarian: it comes to the mind the word *bátor* meaning *brave* which > apart from being a fairly common word in Hungarian enters in the very > name of the capital city of Mongolia (Ulaan Baator, I think). The Mongols under Batu Khan (he was Genghis's son, I think) overran Hungary. It is no wonder a stray loanword got across. The word also got into Hindi as "bahadur". From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Jun 6 20:30:36 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:30:36 -0600 Subject: Basque and other relationships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK, folks. Thank you for your enlightenment regarding Basque and other European languages. I'm afraid that I must step in and call a halt to this line of discussion, as it really has little to do with Nahuatl. Thank you. J. F. Schwaller List owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Jun 6 20:30:25 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:30:25 -0500 Subject: Basque and other relationships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > The Basque speakers have been ruled by Indo-European speakers for so > long that many loanwords are likely to have got in, even for family > relationships. Compare: English is Germanic, but "uncle" comes from > Latin "avunculus". > > > ... the influence of Mongolian on at least one Uralic language, namely > > Hungarian: it comes to the mind the word *b�tor* meaning *brave* which > > apart from being a fairly common word in Hungarian enters in the very > > name of the capital city of Mongolia (Ulaan Baator, I think). > > The Mongols under Batu Khan (he was Genghis's son, I think) overran > Hungary. It is no wonder a stray loanword got across. The word also got > into Hindi as "bahadur". Loan words are a source of mystery. Consider Miami-Illinois, a Great Lakes Algonquian language, in which the word for "eight" is a borrowing from Siouan Tutelo. How in the devil that happened is anybody's guess. Michael From jrader at m-w.com Tue Jun 6 17:03:36 2000 From: jrader at m-w.com (Jim Rader) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:03:36 +0000 Subject: Basque and other relationships Message-ID: > > ... the influence of Mongolian on at least one Uralic language, namely > > Hungarian: it comes to the mind the word *bator* meaning *brave* which > > apart from being a fairly common word in Hungarian enters in the very > > name of the capital city of Mongolia (Ulaan Baator, I think). > > The Mongols under Batu Khan (he was Genghis's son, I think) overran > Hungary. It is no wonder a stray loanword got across. The word also got > into Hindi as "bahadur". > > WAY off the topic of this list, but this etymon probably originated in Turkic and was borrowed into Mongolian. Gerard Clauson thought was itself a loanword into Turkic from a Xiongnu personal name. From Turkic the word was borrowed into Persian and hence into Indo-Aryan languages such as Hindi, and back into some Turkic languages from Persian. Hungarian was borrowed from Turkic, not Mongolian; direct Hungarian contact with the Mongols was slight. Also from Turkic, directly or indirectly, are words for "hero" in various Slavic languages (Russian , Polish , etc.). To correct something said in an earlier post: Hungarian has a number of loanwords from Slavic, but the Slavic influence on Hungarian is not at all comparable to the French influence on English. Enough--let's get back to Nahuatl. Jim Rader From robc at csufresno.edu Wed Jun 7 01:48:03 2000 From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert G. Comegys) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:48:03 -0700 Subject: Language Families, my apologies Message-ID: My apologies to the group for mislabeling conclusions drawn from other sources as "linguistic". No, actually I am not a linguist, and will certainly remember this better in the future. Usually I am very careful to not overstate conclusions and to cite sourtces. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I will resume my place in the back of the class and try to learn something of nahuat-l. John Comegys > > Mark David Morris wrote: > > > With so many good linguists on the list, I hope someone might confirm or > > correct my understanding that neither Finnish, Hungarian nor Basque are > > Indo-European languages. Thanks, Mark Morris > > From aows at swbell.net Wed Jun 7 16:33:02 2000 From: aows at swbell.net (Alexander Wallace) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:33:02 -0600 Subject: Catalan: NOY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm sorry, I know this is way off topic, but I can't find the translation from Cataln of the word NOY, either to spanish or english, and since out there in the list there might be people with knowledg about this I just thought I'd ask.... Thanks! -----Original Message----- From: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]On Behalf Of anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 1:59 PM To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Cc: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Subject: Basque and other relationships Leonel Hermida wrote: > I apologize for being off-topic, but can't fail to draw attention > to the following very basic Basque words which I'm sure all share the > same (pre-historic and exceedingly primitive) root ... EME=female AMA=mother EMAKUME=woman EMAZTE= woman, wife UME=child SEME=son This sort of thing about Basque has been discussed to exhaustion on INDO-EUROPEAN and NOSTRATIC email groups. Words for females with M in are not free from the suspicion of originating with the meaning "mother" or "breast" and being independently imitated ultimately from the same automatic pre-speech suckling noises that babies make. Baby words are likely to get into adult speech as stopgaps when the previous adult words become unusable because of homophony: compare English "nanny" for "child's nurse" to distinguish from "hospital nurse". The Basque speakers have been ruled by Indo-European speakers for so long that many loanwords are likely to have got in, even for family relationships. Compare: English is Germanic, but "uncle" comes from Latin "avunculus". > ... the influence of Mongolian on at least one Uralic language, namely > Hungarian: it comes to the mind the word *bátor* meaning *brave* which > apart from being a fairly common word in Hungarian enters in the very > name of the capital city of Mongolia (Ulaan Baator, I think). The Mongols under Batu Khan (he was Genghis's son, I think) overran Hungary. It is no wonder a stray loanword got across. The word also got into Hindi as "bahadur". From nahualli at highfiber.com Wed Jun 7 19:26:28 2000 From: nahualli at highfiber.com (Brant Gardner) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:26:28 -0600 Subject: Catalan: NOY In-Reply-To: <001401bfd09e$0cf75850$e3706f6e@quetzalcoatl> Message-ID: I do not speak Catalan, but do have a Catalan-Spanish dictionary. It gives the word as NOI and translates it chico/muchacho (young man) ___________________ Brant Gardner Albuquerque, NM nahualli at highfiber.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]On Behalf Of Alexander Wallace Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 10:33 AM To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Subject: Catalan: NOY I'm sorry, I know this is way off topic, but I can't find the translation from Cataln of the word NOY, either to spanish or english, and since out there in the list there might be people with knowledg about this I just thought I'd ask.... Thanks! -----Original Message----- From: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]On Behalf Of anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 1:59 PM To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Cc: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Subject: Basque and other relationships Leonel Hermida wrote: > I apologize for being off-topic, but can't fail to draw attention > to the following very basic Basque words which I'm sure all share the > same (pre-historic and exceedingly primitive) root ... EME=female AMA=mother EMAKUME=woman EMAZTE= woman, wife UME=child SEME=son This sort of thing about Basque has been discussed to exhaustion on INDO-EUROPEAN and NOSTRATIC email groups. Words for females with M in are not free from the suspicion of originating with the meaning "mother" or "breast" and being independently imitated ultimately from the same automatic pre-speech suckling noises that babies make. Baby words are likely to get into adult speech as stopgaps when the previous adult words become unusable because of homophony: compare English "nanny" for "child's nurse" to distinguish from "hospital nurse". The Basque speakers have been ruled by Indo-European speakers for so long that many loanwords are likely to have got in, even for family relationships. Compare: English is Germanic, but "uncle" comes from Latin "avunculus". > ... the influence of Mongolian on at least one Uralic language, namely > Hungarian: it comes to the mind the word *bátor* meaning *brave* which > apart from being a fairly common word in Hungarian enters in the very > name of the capital city of Mongolia (Ulaan Baator, I think). The Mongols under Batu Khan (he was Genghis's son, I think) overran Hungary. It is no wonder a stray loanword got across. The word also got into Hindi as "bahadur". From pkurtboke at mail.hotkey.net.au Thu Jun 8 07:17:58 2000 From: pkurtboke at mail.hotkey.net.au (P. Kurtboke) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:17:58 +1000 Subject: Basque and other relationships In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000606143036.00b55870@selway.umt.edu> Message-ID: Incidentally, Basque, Turkish, Hungarian, Finnish and a few more happen to agglutinate. Those dealing with parsers and other analysis tools for these languages might have a bit more than little to do with Nahuatl...After all, we all try to reveal the mysteries of affix combinations in our respective languages and might all benefit from collaboration. Petek ps 'tepe' in Turkish means 'hill' >OK, folks. Thank you for your enlightenment regarding Basque and other >European languages. I'm afraid that I must step in and call a halt to this >line of discussion, as it really has little to do with Nahuatl. > >Thank you. > >J. F. Schwaller >List owner > From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Thu Jun 8 10:14:13 2000 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 10:14:13 GMT Subject: (parsers (was: Re: Language families) Message-ID: J. F. Schwaller reminded us that Basque etc is off-topic for this group. "P. Kurtboke" answered:- > Incidentally, Basque, Turkish, Hungarian, Finnish and a few more happen to > agglutinate. Those dealing with parsers and other analysis tools for these > languages might have a bit more than little to do with Nahuatl...After all, > we all try to reveal the mysteries of affix combinations in our respective > languages and might all benefit from collaboration. I have written a parser / auto-translater program for an agglutinating language - for the invented Star Trek Klingon language, which is more regular than natural languages tend to be. I wrote it individually for that language, in Gnu C++ for DOS, not using any programmable parser format like YACC or etc. I could try to adapt it for Nahuatl (and Windows) if I had to, but coping with spelling rule variations and the results of assimilations etc at morpheme junctions would add complications. From pkurtboke at mail.hotkey.net.au Thu Jun 8 10:16:10 2000 From: pkurtboke at mail.hotkey.net.au (P. Kurtboke) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:16:10 +1000 Subject: (parsers (was: Re: Language families) In-Reply-To: <32E58731C94@fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk> Message-ID: At 10:14 AM 6/8/00 GMT, you wrote: > J. F. Schwaller reminded us that Basque etc is off-topic for this group. Anthony, my message was not about that. I was simply hesitant to change the subject line and thought long about it before posting my message. > >I have written a parser / auto-translater program for an agglutinating >language - for the invented Star Trek Klingon language, which is more regular >than natural languages tend to be. I wrote it individually for that language, >in Gnu C++ for DOS, not using any programmable parser format like YACC or etc. >I could try to adapt it for Nahuatl (and Windows) if I had to, but coping with >spelling rule variations and the results of assimilations etc at morpheme >junctions would add complications. > You're welcome to try it on my corpus of 1000 Turkish texts. Petek From aows at swbell.net Thu Jun 8 15:30:21 2000 From: aows at swbell.net (Alexander Wallace) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:30:21 -0600 Subject: Catalan: NOY: Thanks! In-Reply-To: <000001bfd0b7$5efd14a0$3d822a40@brantg> Message-ID: I thank everyone for helping me with that word. For some reason I have it as NOY, but it may by just a typo, it is the title of a popular (clasic) catalan song: EL NOY (noi?) DE LA MARE. El chico de mama'? Makes sense... Thanks again! -----Original Message----- From: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]On Behalf Of Brant Gardner Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 1:26 PM To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Subject: RE: Catalan: NOY I do not speak Catalan, but do have a Catalan-Spanish dictionary. It gives the word as NOI and translates it chico/muchacho (young man) ___________________ Brant Gardner Albuquerque, NM nahualli at highfiber.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]On Behalf Of Alexander Wallace Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 10:33 AM To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Subject: Catalan: NOY I'm sorry, I know this is way off topic, but I can't find the translation from Cataln of the word NOY, either to spanish or english, and since out there in the list there might be people with knowledg about this I just thought I'd ask.... Thanks! -----Original Message----- From: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]On Behalf Of anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 1:59 PM To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Cc: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Subject: Basque and other relationships Leonel Hermida wrote: > I apologize for being off-topic, but can't fail to draw attention > to the following very basic Basque words which I'm sure all share the > same (pre-historic and exceedingly primitive) root ... EME=female AMA=mother EMAKUME=woman EMAZTE= woman, wife UME=child SEME=son This sort of thing about Basque has been discussed to exhaustion on INDO-EUROPEAN and NOSTRATIC email groups. Words for females with M in are not free from the suspicion of originating with the meaning "mother" or "breast" and being independently imitated ultimately from the same automatic pre-speech suckling noises that babies make. Baby words are likely to get into adult speech as stopgaps when the previous adult words become unusable because of homophony: compare English "nanny" for "child's nurse" to distinguish from "hospital nurse". The Basque speakers have been ruled by Indo-European speakers for so long that many loanwords are likely to have got in, even for family relationships. Compare: English is Germanic, but "uncle" comes from Latin "avunculus". > ... the influence of Mongolian on at least one Uralic language, namely > Hungarian: it comes to the mind the word *bátor* meaning *brave* which > apart from being a fairly common word in Hungarian enters in the very > name of the capital city of Mongolia (Ulaan Baator, I think). The Mongols under Batu Khan (he was Genghis's son, I think) overran Hungary. It is no wonder a stray loanword got across. The word also got into Hindi as "bahadur". From RCRAPO at hass3.hass.usu.edu Mon Jun 12 21:07:22 2000 From: RCRAPO at hass3.hass.usu.edu (Richley Crapo) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:07:22 -0600 Subject: Aztec Idioms Message-ID: Is "cuali eztli" an original Nahuatl idiom for "of noble lineage", or is this more likely a loan-translation from Spanish into Nahuatl? richley From alina at dir.bg Thu Jun 15 12:40:50 2000 From: alina at dir.bg (Maria) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:40:50 0300 Subject: enseñanza de nahuatl Message-ID: Estimados amigos: permitenme saludarles y presentarme - me llamo María Guerguíeva y soy una enamorada de la cultura mexicana, en general, y de la nahua, en particular, estoy haciendo la carrera de Letras Hispánicas en la Universidad de Sofía y en el momento actual me dedico a la traducción de poesía azteca /en la versión al castellano de Ángel Garibay y de Miguel León-Portilla/. Mi sueño e intención es estudiar en un futuro próximo la lengua nahuatl para llevar a cabo una mejor traducción de los textos. Les sería enormemente agradecida si alguno de Ustedes pudiera informarmarme acerca de la enseñanza del idioma náhuatl:dónde se enseña, cuáles son los requisitos de admisión, etc... Gracias de antemano: María ---------------------------------------------------- ��������� ���� �� dir.bg! Free e-mail from dir.bg! http://www.dir.bg ---------------------------------------------------- From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Jun 20 15:24:46 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:24:46 -0600 Subject: New article Message-ID: Francis, Norbert "The shared conceptual system and language processing in bilingual children: Findings from literacy assessment in Spanish and Nahuatl. " _Applied linguistics_. vol. 21 num. 2 (JUN 01 2000), p. 170 John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Jun 20 16:39:50 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:39:50 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Dumbarton Oaks Pre-Columbian Studies Symposium, 7 & 8 October 200 0, Organized by John B. Carlson Message-ID: >From: "Willson, Rebecca" >Subject: Dumbarton Oaks Pre-Columbian Studies Symposium, 7 & 8 October 200 > 0, Organized by John B. Carlson >Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:13:40 -0400 > > > > Pre-Columbian Symposium >October 7 - 8 , 2000 > > > PILGRIMAGE AND THE RITUAL LANDSCAPE > > IN PRE-COLUMBIAN AMERICA > > > > organized by > > > > John B. Carlson > > > > > > Ancient Americans ordered the natural world on cosmological > > principles. Mountains and springs, plains and rivers, were points and > > channels of sacred power from historical events and timeless sacred > > forces. Geographical features were inscribed by human hands to mark their > > sacredness while temples and shrines replicated holy mountains, caves, and > > water sources. Throughout the New World natural and constructed places > > commonly became centers of pilgrimage in patterns often maintained to the > > present. > > > > This symposium will explore sacred landscapes and pilgrimage in the > > New World, drawing upon a few of the many examples available. The > > perspective will be multi-disciplinary, cross-cultural, and examine wider > > issues for understanding these issues beyond the New World. > > > > The lifetime work of two innovative, influential scholars will be > > acknowledged in this Symposium. As active researchers, Doris Heyden, > > Investigador Nacional and Anthropologist and Ethnohistorian at the > > Direccion de Etnologia y Antropologia Social - Instituto Nacional de > > Antropologia e Historia, Mexico, and Evon Z. Vogt, Professor Emeritus of > > Anthropology at Harvard University will take a participatory role in the > > symposium. > > > > The symposium is open to scholars and advanced graduate students. If you > > wish to attend, please complete the enclosed registration form and return > > it with the $40 registration fee ($30 for graduate students). This covers > > admission to the scholarly sessions and the Saturday evening cocktail > > party. Lunch is offered on Saturday by prior subscription for $15, > > payable in advance with the registration fee. Deadline for registration > > is September 24, but you are urged to respond as soon as possible. The > > maximum number of participants is 200, accepted on a "first come, first > > served" basis. Information on area hotels and taxis will be sent to you > > when your registration is confirmed. > > > > Please bring this notice to the attention of appropriate colleagues > > and students, who may use a duplicate of the form to register. Please > > address all correspondence to: > > > > Pre-Columbian Studies, Dumbarton Oaks > > 1703 32nd Street NW, Washington, DC 20007 > > > > or email: Pre-Columbian at doaks.org > > > > > > > > * No registrations will be accepted via email. > > * No fees are payable by credit card. > > > > > > > > > > Tentative Agenda > > > > Pilgrimage and the Ritual Landscape in Pre-Columbian America > > > > > > Saturday, October 8, 2000 > > > > 8:00 - 8:45 Registration, Coffee on the Terrace > > > > Morning Session > > > > Clive L. N. Ruggles (University of Leicester): Landscape Archaeology and > > the Archaeology of Pilgrimage: A View from Across the Atlantic > > > > Sabine G. MacCormack (University of Michigan): Strangers and Pilgrims > > > > Helaine Silverman (University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana): Pilgrimage > > and Sacred Landscapes in Ancient Nazca > > > > Johan Reinhard (The Mountain Institute and National Geographic Society): > > Sacred Mountains, Human Sacrifices, and Pilgrimages Among the Inca > > > > 12:30 - 2:00 Lunch at Dumbarton Oaks (by subscription) > > > > > > Afternoon Session: > > > > Barbara Tedlock (State University of New York - Buffalo): Momostenango, > > 'Town of Shrines': The Archaeological Implications of A Living Maya > > Calendrical Pilgrimage Center > > > > Evon Z. Vogt (Harvard University): Micro-pilgimages to the Mountain and > > Waterhole Shrines in the Tzotzil-Maya Community of Zinacantan > > > > Andrea Stone (University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee) and James Brady > > (California State University-Los Angeles): The Road to Xibalba: Regional > > Pilgrimage Caves in the Maya Area > > > > William L. Fash and David Stuart (Harvard University): Sacbes, Sacred > > Mountains, and Ceremonial Circuits in the Copan Valley > > > > Stephen H. Lekson and Gretchen Jordan (University of Colorado-Boulder): > > Landscape, Pilgrimage, and Power in the Ancient Southwest > > > > 5:30 - 7:00 Cocktail Reception > > -over- > > > > > > > > Sunday, October 10, 1999 > > > > 8:30 - 9:00 Coffee on the Terrace > > > > > > 9:00 - 12:30 Morning Session > > > > John M. D. Pohl (Independent Scholar) and Javier Urcid (Brandeis > > University): Sacred Caves and Migration Legends as Allegories for > > Postclassic Alliance and Exchange Networks > > > > Michael D. Lind (Independent Scholar): Pilgrimage and the Ritual Landscape > > in Ancient Cholula > > > > Richard Townsend (Art Institute of Chicago): From Landscape to Symbol at > > Tezcotzingo and Mt. Tlaloc > > > > John B. Carlson (Center for Archaeoastronomy and University of Maryland, > > College Park): La Malinche and San Miguel: Pilgrimage and Sacrifice to the > > Mountains of Sustanence in the Mexican Altiplano > > > > Doris Heyden (DEAS-INAH: Direccion de Etnologia y Antropologia Social - > > Instituto Nacional de Antropologiae Historia, Mexico): The Effect of > > Natural Disasters on the Landscape of Mexico, and How These Created > > Pilgrimage Centers: Caves, Mountains, etc." > > > > Please consider that the Symposium may continue until 1:30 p.m. when > > making your travel arrangements > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > REGISTRATION FORM > > > > Please register me for the Symposium: > > > > Pilgrimage and the Ritual Landscape in Pre-Columbian America > > October 7-8, 2000 > > > > > > $40 fee enclosed $____________ > > $30 student fee enclosed $____________ > > $15 lunch fee enclosed for Oct. > > $____________ > > TOTAL ENCLOSED $____________ > > > > > > PRINT name and affiliation as you wish them to appear on your > > identification badge. > > > > Name_________________________________________________________ > > > > Affiliation_____________________________________________________ > > > > Work Phone_______________________________________________________ > > > > Home Phone (optional____________________________________ > > > > Mailing address (include your affiliation's name again if it is part of > > your > > address):_____________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > > > > Email address______________________________________________________ > > > > The registration fee must be paid by September 25th and is not refundable. > > For lunch refund, cancellation must be received no later than September > > 28th. Payment received after spaces have been filled will be returned. > > Your registration will be acknowledged by postcard. > > > > Please mail this form with check payable to DUMBARTON OAKS to: > > > > Pre-Columbian Studies > > Attn: Symposium > > Dumbarton Oaks > > 1703 32nd Street, NW > > Washington, DC 20007 > > From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Jun 20 17:03:45 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:03:45 -0600 Subject: Dumbarton Oaks - Revised Message-ID: Please note that the Program contains several errors. The conference will take place on October 7 & 8, 2000, Saturday and Sunday. > Subject: Dumbarton Oaks Pre-Columbian Studies Symposium, 7 & 8 > October 2000, Organized by John B. Carlson > > > > Pre-Columbian Symposium > October 7 - 8 , 2000 > > PILGRIMAGE AND THE RITUAL LANDSCAPE > IN PRE-COLUMBIAN AMERICA > > organized by > > John B. Carlson > > > Ancient Americans ordered the natural world on cosmological > principles. Mountains and springs, plains and rivers, were points and > channels of sacred power from historical events and timeless sacred > forces. Geographical features were inscribed by human hands to mark their > sacredness while temples and shrines replicated holy mountains, caves, and > water sources. Throughout the New World natural and constructed places > commonly became centers of pilgrimage in patterns often maintained to the > present. > > This symposium will explore sacred landscapes and pilgrimage in the > New World, drawing upon a few of the many examples available. The > perspective will be multi-disciplinary, cross-cultural, and examine wider > issues for understanding these issues beyond the New World. > > The lifetime work of two innovative, influential scholars will be > acknowledged in this Symposium. As active researchers, Doris Heyden, > Investigador Nacional and Anthropologist and Ethnohistorian at the > Direccion de Etnologia y Antropologia Social - Instituto Nacional de > Antropologia e Historia, Mexico, and Evon Z. Vogt, Professor Emeritus of > Anthropology at Harvard University will take a participatory role in the > symposium. > > The symposium is open to scholars and advanced graduate students. If you > wish to attend, please complete the enclosed registration form and return > it with the $40 registration fee ($30 for graduate students). This covers > admission to the scholarly sessions and the Saturday evening cocktail > party. Lunch is offered on Saturday by prior subscription for $15, > payable in advance with the registration fee. Deadline for registration > is September 25, but you are urged to respond as soon as possible. The > maximum number of participants is 200, accepted on a "first come, first > served" basis. Information on area hotels and taxis will be sent to you > when your registration is confirmed. > > Please bring this notice to the attention of appropriate colleagues > and students, who may use a duplicate of the form to register. Please > address all correspondence to: > > Pre-Columbian Studies, Dumbarton Oaks > 1703 32nd Street NW, Washington, DC 20007 > > or email: Pre-Columbian at doaks.org > > > > * No registrations will be accepted via email. > * No fees are payable by credit card. > > > > > Tentative Agenda > > Pilgrimage and the Ritual Landscape in Pre-Columbian America > > > Friday, October 7, 2000 > > 8:00 - 8:45 Registration, Coffee on the Terrace > > Morning Session > > Clive L. N. Ruggles (University of Leicester): Landscape Archaeology and > the Archaeology of Pilgrimage: A View from Across the Atlantic > > Sabine G. MacCormack (University of Michigan): Strangers and Pilgrims > > Helaine Silverman (University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana): Pilgrimage > and Sacred Landscapes in Ancient Nazca > > Johan Reinhard (The Mountain Institute and National Geographic Society): > Sacred Mountains, Human Sacrifices, and Pilgrimages Among the Inca > > 12:30 - 2:00 Lunch at Dumbarton Oaks (by subscription) > > > Afternoon Session: > > Barbara Tedlock (State University of New York - Buffalo): Momostenango, > 'Town of Shrines': The Archaeological Implications of A Living Maya > Calendrical Pilgrimage Center > > Evon Z. Vogt (Harvard University): Micro-pilgimages to the Mountain and > Waterhole Shrines in the Tzotzil-Maya Community of Zinacantan > > Andrea Stone (University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee) and James Brady > (California State University-Los Angeles): The Road to Xibalba: Regional > Pilgrimage Caves in the Maya Area > > William L. Fash and David Stuart (Harvard University): Sacbes, Sacred > Mountains, and Ceremonial Circuits in the Copan Valley > > Stephen H. Lekson and Gretchen Jordan (University of Colorado-Boulder): > Landscape, Pilgrimage, and Power in the Ancient Southwest > > 5:30 - 7:00 Cocktail Reception > -over- > > > > Saturday, October 8th, 2000 > > 8:30 - 9:00 Coffee on the Terrace > > > 9:00 - 12:30 Morning Session > > John M. D. Pohl (Independent Scholar) and Javier Urcid (Brandeis > University): Sacred Caves and Migration Legends as Allegories for > Postclassic Alliance and Exchange Networks > > Michael D. Lind (Independent Scholar): Pilgrimage and the Ritual Landscape > in Ancient Cholula > > Richard Townsend (Art Institute of Chicago): From Landscape to Symbol at > Tezcotzingo and Mt. Tlaloc > > John B. Carlson (Center for Archaeoastronomy and University of Maryland, > College Park): La Malinche and San Miguel: Pilgrimage and Sacrifice to the > Mountains of Sustanence in the Mexican Altiplano > > Doris Heyden (DEAS-INAH: Direccion de Etnologia y Antropologia Social - > Instituto Nacional de Antropologiae Historia, Mexico): The Effect of > Natural Disasters on the Landscape of Mexico, and How These Created > Pilgrimage Centers: Caves, Mountains, etc." > > Please consider that the Symposium may continue until 1:30 p.m. when > making your travel arrangements > > > > > > > > > > REGISTRATION FORM > > Please register me for the Symposium: > > Pilgrimage and the Ritual Landscape in Pre-Columbian America > October 7-8, 2000 > > > $40 fee enclosed $____________ > $30 student fee enclosed $____________ > $15 lunch fee enclosed for Oct. > $____________ > TOTAL ENCLOSED $____________ > > > PRINT name and affiliation as you wish them to appear on your > identification badge. > > Name_________________________________________________________ > > Affiliation_____________________________________________________ > > Work Phone_______________________________________________________ > > Home Phone (optional____________________________________ > > Mailing address (include your affiliation's name again if it is part of > your > address):_____________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________ > > Email address______________________________________________________ > > The registration fee must be paid by September 25th and is not refundable. > For lunch refund, cancellation must be received no later than September > 28th. Payment received after spaces have been filled will be returned. > Your registration will be acknowledged by postcard. > > Please mail this form with check payable to DUMBARTON OAKS to: > > Pre-Columbian Studies > Attn: Symposium > Dumbarton Oaks > 1703 32nd Street, NW > Washington, DC 20007 > From heatherhess at hotmail.com Wed Jun 21 15:07:52 2000 From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 08:07:52 PDT Subject: Dumbarton Oaks - Revised Message-ID: Does this conference really only cost $40.00 U.S.!!!! Where is Dumbarton Oaks please. I have read references to it in the book written with Thelma Sullivan's translations but am not familiar with it! However, I have wanted to go there and this is my opportunity - wow - what an opportunity! Yolohtzin >From: "John F. Schwaller" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >Subject: Dumbarton Oaks - Revised >Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:03:45 -0600 > >Please note that the Program contains several errors. The conference will >take place on October 7 & 8, 2000, Saturday and Sunday. > > > Subject: Dumbarton Oaks Pre-Columbian Studies Symposium, 7 & 8 > > October 2000, Organized by John B. Carlson > > > > > > > > Pre-Columbian Symposium > > October 7 - 8 , 2000 > > > > PILGRIMAGE AND THE RITUAL LANDSCAPE > > IN PRE-COLUMBIAN AMERICA > > > > organized by > > > > John B. Carlson > > > > > > Ancient Americans ordered the natural world on cosmological > > principles. Mountains and springs, plains and rivers, were points and > > channels of sacred power from historical events and timeless sacred > > forces. Geographical features were inscribed by human hands to mark >their > > sacredness while temples and shrines replicated holy mountains, caves, >and > > water sources. Throughout the New World natural and constructed places > > commonly became centers of pilgrimage in patterns often maintained to >the > > present. > > > > This symposium will explore sacred landscapes and pilgrimage in the > > New World, drawing upon a few of the many examples available. The > > perspective will be multi-disciplinary, cross-cultural, and examine >wider > > issues for understanding these issues beyond the New World. > > > > The lifetime work of two innovative, influential scholars will be > > acknowledged in this Symposium. As active researchers, Doris Heyden, > > Investigador Nacional and Anthropologist and Ethnohistorian at the > > Direccion de Etnologia y Antropologia Social - Instituto Nacional de > > Antropologia e Historia, Mexico, and Evon Z. Vogt, Professor Emeritus of > > Anthropology at Harvard University will take a participatory role in the > > symposium. > > > > The symposium is open to scholars and advanced graduate students. If you > > wish to attend, please complete the enclosed registration form and >return > > it with the $40 registration fee ($30 for graduate students). This >covers > > admission to the scholarly sessions and the Saturday evening cocktail > > party. Lunch is offered on Saturday by prior subscription for $15, > > payable in advance with the registration fee. Deadline for registration > > is September 25, but you are urged to respond as soon as possible. The > > maximum number of participants is 200, accepted on a "first come, first > > served" basis. Information on area hotels and taxis will be sent to you > > when your registration is confirmed. > > > > Please bring this notice to the attention of appropriate colleagues > > and students, who may use a duplicate of the form to register. Please > > address all correspondence to: > > > > Pre-Columbian Studies, Dumbarton Oaks > > 1703 32nd Street NW, Washington, DC 20007 > > > > or email: Pre-Columbian at doaks.org > > > > > > > > * No registrations will be accepted via email. > > * No fees are payable by credit card. > > > > > > > > > > Tentative Agenda > > > > Pilgrimage and the Ritual Landscape in Pre-Columbian America > > > > > > Friday, October 7, 2000 > > > > 8:00 - 8:45 Registration, Coffee on the Terrace > > > > Morning Session > > > > Clive L. N. Ruggles (University of Leicester): Landscape Archaeology and > > the Archaeology of Pilgrimage: A View from Across the Atlantic > > > > Sabine G. MacCormack (University of Michigan): Strangers and Pilgrims > > > > Helaine Silverman (University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana): >Pilgrimage > > and Sacred Landscapes in Ancient Nazca > > > > Johan Reinhard (The Mountain Institute and National Geographic Society): > > Sacred Mountains, Human Sacrifices, and Pilgrimages Among the Inca > > > > 12:30 - 2:00 Lunch at Dumbarton Oaks (by subscription) > > > > > > Afternoon Session: > > > > Barbara Tedlock (State University of New York - Buffalo): Momostenango, > > 'Town of Shrines': The Archaeological Implications of A Living Maya > > Calendrical Pilgrimage Center > > > > Evon Z. Vogt (Harvard University): Micro-pilgimages to the Mountain and > > Waterhole Shrines in the Tzotzil-Maya Community of Zinacantan > > > > Andrea Stone (University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee) and James Brady > > (California State University-Los Angeles): The Road to Xibalba: Regional > > Pilgrimage Caves in the Maya Area > > > > William L. Fash and David Stuart (Harvard University): Sacbes, Sacred > > Mountains, and Ceremonial Circuits in the Copan Valley > > > > Stephen H. Lekson and Gretchen Jordan (University of Colorado-Boulder): > > Landscape, Pilgrimage, and Power in the Ancient Southwest > > > > 5:30 - 7:00 Cocktail Reception > > -over- > > > > > > > > Saturday, October 8th, 2000 > > > > 8:30 - 9:00 Coffee on the Terrace > > > > > > 9:00 - 12:30 Morning Session > > > > John M. D. Pohl (Independent Scholar) and Javier Urcid (Brandeis > > University): Sacred Caves and Migration Legends as Allegories for > > Postclassic Alliance and Exchange Networks > > > > Michael D. Lind (Independent Scholar): Pilgrimage and the Ritual >Landscape > > in Ancient Cholula > > > > Richard Townsend (Art Institute of Chicago): From Landscape to Symbol at > > Tezcotzingo and Mt. Tlaloc > > > > John B. Carlson (Center for Archaeoastronomy and University of Maryland, > > College Park): La Malinche and San Miguel: Pilgrimage and Sacrifice to >the > > Mountains of Sustanence in the Mexican Altiplano > > > > Doris Heyden (DEAS-INAH: Direccion de Etnologia y Antropologia Social - > > Instituto Nacional de Antropologiae Historia, Mexico): The Effect of > > Natural Disasters on the Landscape of Mexico, and How These Created > > Pilgrimage Centers: Caves, Mountains, etc." > > > > Please consider that the Symposium may continue until 1:30 p.m. when > > making your travel arrangements > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > REGISTRATION FORM > > > > Please register me for the Symposium: > > > > Pilgrimage and the Ritual Landscape in Pre-Columbian America > > October 7-8, 2000 > > > > > > $40 fee enclosed $____________ > > $30 student fee enclosed $____________ > > $15 lunch fee enclosed for Oct. > > $____________ > > TOTAL ENCLOSED $____________ > > > > > > PRINT name and affiliation as you wish them to appear on your > > identification badge. > > > > Name_________________________________________________________ > > > > Affiliation_____________________________________________________ > > > > Work Phone_______________________________________________________ > > > > Home Phone (optional____________________________________ > > > > Mailing address (include your affiliation's name again if it is part of > > your > > address):_____________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > > > > Email address______________________________________________________ > > > > The registration fee must be paid by September 25th and is not >refundable. > > For lunch refund, cancellation must be received no later than September > > 28th. Payment received after spaces have been filled will be returned. > > Your registration will be acknowledged by postcard. > > > > Please mail this form with check payable to DUMBARTON OAKS to: > > > > Pre-Columbian Studies > > Attn: Symposium > > Dumbarton Oaks > > 1703 32nd Street, NW > > Washington, DC 20007 > > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Wed Jun 21 15:30:34 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:30:34 -0600 Subject: Dumbarton Oaks - Revised In-Reply-To: <20000621150752.82519.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Dumbarton Oaks is located in Washington, DC, just north of Georgetown. For more information regarding it see: http://www.doaks.org/ Also, when replying to a long posting, please do NOT include the entirety of the original message. J. F. Schwaller List Owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From pkurtboke at mail.hotkey.net.au Fri Jun 23 07:13:24 2000 From: pkurtboke at mail.hotkey.net.au (P. Kurtboke) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:13:24 +1000 Subject: New article In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20000620092236.00bc6e20@selway.umt.edu> Message-ID: > > Francis, Norbert >"The shared conceptual system and language processing in bilingual children: >Findings from literacy assessment in Spanish and Nahuatl. " >_Applied linguistics_. vol. 21 num. 2 (JUN 01 2000), p. 170 Thanks for this most interesting reference and I'd like to contact the author. If he's a subscriber to the list or if there are subscribers who know him, his e-mail address would be much appreciated. Petek From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Fri Jun 23 15:27:12 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:27:12 -0600 Subject: Pre-Columbian Society of Washington, DC Message-ID: The Pre-Columbian Society of Washington, DC will hold a one-day seminar entitled: "Are we Having Fun Yet? Pleasurable Activities in Ancient America" Satuday, September 16 US Navy Memorial and Naval Heritage Center 701 Pennsylvania Ave, NW Washington DC The scheduled speakers include: Jeffrey Quilter, "At Work, Rest, or Play? The Question of Leisure in Ancient America" Susan Today Evans, "'Mid Pleasures and Palaces: Aztec Nobles at Home and at Play" Jill Leslie McKeever-Furst, "Compulsory Play: The Leisure Activities of Aztec Children and Youths" Warren DeBoer, "Of Dice and Women: Gambling and Exchange in Native North America" Karl Taube, "American Gladiators: Competitive Combat in Ancient Mesoamerica" Justin Kerr, "A Good Times was had by all: Fun and Games among the Ancient Maya" For further information contact the Society: Registration Coordinator 11104 Bucknell Dr. Silver Spring, MD 20902-4432 Leisure at ancientamerica.net John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From Norbert.Francis at nau.edu Fri Jun 23 16:37:59 2000 From: Norbert.Francis at nau.edu (Norbert Francis) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:37:59 -0700 Subject: New article In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000623171324.007a58d0@pop.hotkey.net.au> Message-ID: Thank you for your interest in our project. Feel free to write to norbert.francis at nau.edu for more information. >> >> Francis, Norbert >>"The shared conceptual system and language processing in bilingual children: >>Findings from literacy assessment in Spanish and Nahuatl. " >>_Applied linguistics_. vol. 21 num. 2 (JUN 01 2000), p. 170 > >Thanks for this most interesting reference and I'd like to contact the >author. If he's a subscriber to the list or if there are subscribers who >know him, his e-mail address would be much appreciated. > >Petek From CHMuths at aol.com Thu Jun 29 21:23:12 2000 From: CHMuths at aol.com (CHMuths at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:23:12 EDT Subject: Language Families Message-ID: Christa From pkurtboke at mail.hotkey.net.au Fri Jun 30 06:50:58 2000 From: pkurtboke at mail.hotkey.net.au (P. Kurtboke) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:50:58 +1000 Subject: monosyllabic verbs, '-li', reviews In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000608171758.00794100@pop.hotkey.net.au> Message-ID: Three questions: 1) A count of monosyllabic verbs in my corpus of Turkish displays 144. I would like to know if there's a significant number of monosyllabic verbs in Nahuatl? 2) '-li' is a very productive suffix in Turkish. Can someone say a few words about its function in Nahuatl? 3) I'm reading Brian Hamnett's 'A Concise History of Mexico' (CUP 1999). Is anyone aware of this book's reviews? Thanks Petek From fjgs at servidor.unam.mx Fri Jun 2 03:07:10 2000 From: fjgs at servidor.unam.mx (Ehecatecolotl) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:07:10 -0600 Subject: 1st person honorifics? Message-ID: <> > The books say that using honorifics of oneself in Nahuatl is not done because > it would seem too pompous. But are there any examples of it found in the > literature. perhaps to achieve a special effect? (Chinese has an example: a > pronoun pronounced "ching", written by a special character, which could be > fairly translated as {nehhua:tzin}; only the Emperor was allowed to use it!) I understand the honorific used for one?s self is acceptable if the person is being condescendent to him/herself, conveying the meaning of "poor me, incapable of such or such deed", therefore, the situation mentioned by Francestzin applies just fine or when the person is ill, etc. From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 16:20:06 2000 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Mr. Tezozomoc) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:20:06 PDT Subject: 1st person honorifics? Message-ID: The nahuatl people did not use it but the friars did certainly pump themselves up..... Here is a piece from Fray Juan Gaona's peace and tranquility: Fray Ioa: de Gaona, sant Francisco teopixqui, vei teotlatol- matini. Auh quinaxcan, occeppa Yancuican oquimopatili, oquimoc xitoquili, in cenca mauiztililoni to tlazotatzin Fray Miguel de zasare vei teotlatolmatini, yuan Comissa rio gn~al itechpa in santa cruzada, nica:ipa: >From: "Ehecatecolotl" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >To: >Subject: 1st person honorifics? >Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:07:10 -0600 > ><> > > The books say that using honorifics of oneself in Nahuatl is not done >because > > it would seem too pompous. But are there any examples of it found in the > > literature. perhaps to achieve a special effect? (Chinese has an >example: >a > > pronoun pronounced "ching", written by a special character, which could >be > > fairly translated as {nehhua:tzin}; only the Emperor was allowed to use >it!) > > >I understand the honorific used for one?s self is acceptable if the person >is being condescendent to him/herself, conveying the meaning of "poor me, >incapable of such or such deed", therefore, the situation mentioned by >Francestzin applies just fine or when the person is ill, etc. > > > > ---------------------------------------- View my epidemic.com e-mail graphics! http://www.epidemic.com/myepimall.jhtml?emid=42448 ---------------------------------------- http://www.epidemic.com/?emid=42448 The e-mail or Internet service provider used for this e-mail is not affiliated with any advertisements you may see. (Get details at http://www.epidemic.com/public/disclaimer.html) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Amapohuani at aol.com Fri Jun 2 18:35:49 2000 From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:35:49 EDT Subject: 1st person honorifics? Message-ID: Listeros: Re first person honorifics. The last posting is included at the end of this message. The citation is from one of the pages just preliminary to page one of fray Juan de Gaona's COLLOQVIOS DE la paz, y tranquilidad Christiana, en lengua Mexicana (1582, Pedro Ocharte). Fray Miguel de Zarate prepared this edition of his deceased colleague. Zarate (under EXAMEN) twice indicates that he "corrected" the original, acting under the orders of the then-provincial of the Provincia del Santa Evangelio. Just before page one is a page that begins 'COLLOQVIOS DE la paz" [etc.] that includes the information that they are "agora nueuamente corregidos, y anadidos, y puesta auctoridades, y citados los lugares por el muy. R. Padre Fray Miguel de carate" etc. [I leave out special characters since they do not go well over cyberspace.] What was cited is essentially a loose translation from the Spanish of this page to the Nahuatl of the next page where the citation is taken from. This is standard Nahuatl for the subject matter and not more or less honorific than anything else you might encounter in similar texts, or even in those done by Nahuas for their own purposes; also see how Chimalpahin writes about various clerics. A Nahua or a cleric could have written it - literally, since Nahuas helped many times with texts (published or manuscript) and the author of record was more of a supervisor than the actual writer per se. In this case (see prologue in fray Juan Baptista's sermonario of 1606) we know that the trilingual (Latin/Nahuatl/Spanish) Nahua, Hernando de Ribas, who helped Molina with his grammar and dictionary, also apparently helped Gaona with this work (called by Baptista "Dialogos" if I am not mistaken). Baptista's own extensive corpus was entirely co-authored by Augustin de la Fuente, who was also the "corrector de lengua" of fray Juan de Mijanos', OSA, ESPEJO DIUINO of 1607. In any case this is exactly how people wrote about themselves in such situations - not in the first person, but as if they were writing about someone else [and it may have been Ribas or some other Nahua who literally wrote the cited passage]. It would be an incompetent friar, and an even more incompetent Nahua teacher and aide of theirs, who would let any cleric write "nehuatzin" or the like. Literally using first-person honorifics in the first person would have made any Nahua aide/teacher shudder, and marked the friar as lingustically impaired. This brings to mind the passage in the BANCROFT DIALOGUES where the priest replies in a flat non-honorific Nahuatl to a query, and to Book 12 of the FLORENTINE CODEX where Cortes (through his interpreter) speaks in the same way - in a traditional Nahua context, real gaffes and marks (from a Nahua-centric point of view) of a complete barbarian [with apologies to any who feel I am slamming the barbarians too much]. In general, my take on the friars/clerics who used Nahuatl is that they were pretty careful about their use of honorific/reverential forms, perhaps too much so at times. Ye ixquich. Barry D. Sell In a message dated 6/2/00 8:24:45 AM, tezozomoc at hotmail.com writes: << The nahuatl people did not use it but the friars did certainly pump themselves up..... Here is a piece from Fray Juan Gaona's peace and tranquility: Fray Ioa: de Gaona, sant Francisco teopixqui, vei teotlatol- matini. Auh quinaxcan, occeppa Yancuican oquimopatili, oquimoc xitoquili, in cenca mauiztililoni to tlazotatzin Fray Miguel de zasare vei teotlatolmatini, yuan Comissa rio gn~al itechpa in santa cruzada, nica:ipa: >From: "Ehecatecolotl" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >To: >Subject: 1st person honorifics? >Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:07:10 -0600 > ><> > > The books say that using honorifics of oneself in Nahuatl is not done >because > > it would seem too pompous. But are there any examples of it found in the > > literature. perhaps to achieve a special effect? (Chinese has an >example: >a > > pronoun pronounced "ching", written by a special character, which could >be > > fairly translated as {nehhua:tzin}; only the Emperor was allowed to use >it!) > > >I understand the honorific used for one?s self is acceptable if the person >is being condescendent to him/herself, conveying the meaning of "poor me, >incapable of such or such deed", therefore, the situation mentioned by >Francestzin applies just fine or when the person is ill, etc. >> From mdmorris at indiana.edu Mon Jun 5 14:54:29 2000 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:54:29 -0500 Subject: Language Families In-Reply-To: <200005302031.QAA17883@nantucket.net> Message-ID: With so many good linguists on the list, I hope someone might confirm or correct my understanding that neither Finnish, Hungarian nor Basque are Indo-European languages. Thanks, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From J.Kremers at let.kun.nl Mon Jun 5 15:40:42 2000 From: J.Kremers at let.kun.nl (Joost Kremers) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:40:42 +0200 Subject: Language Families In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 09:54 5-6-00 -0500, you wrote: >With so many good linguists on the list, I hope someone might confirm or >correct my understanding that neither Finnish, Hungarian nor Basque are >Indo-European languages. Thanks, Mark Morris this, i can confirm. finnish and hungarian are part of the finno-ugric language family (i.e., they're related, but about as mutually intelligible as russian and english), and basque is an isolate. some seek ties between basque and georgian, but AFAIK those ties have not been established. HTH joost kremers -------------------------------------------------------- Joost Kremers (Mr.) University of Nijmegen - The Netherlands Department of Languages and Cultures of the Middle-East PO Box 9103 6500 HD Nijmegen - The Netherlands phone: +31 24 3612996 fax: +31 24 3611972 From robc at csufresno.edu Mon Jun 5 16:45:20 2000 From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert G. Comegys) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:45:20 -0700 Subject: Language Families Message-ID: Hi Mark, Finnish and Hungarian are Turkish languages, although Hungarian has been thoroughly saturated with Slavic loan words, something like the way English, a good Germanic language, is loaded with French. (My apologies to the Germans, the French, and the English.) Basque? Who knows. Its usually considered an isolate by most "responsible" (read dull and uninteresting) scholars. Regards, John Comegys Mark David Morris wrote: > With so many good linguists on the list, I hope someone might confirm or > correct my understanding that neither Finnish, Hungarian nor Basque are > Indo-European languages. Thanks, Mark Morris > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jun 5 17:10:41 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 12:10:41 -0500 Subject: Language Families In-Reply-To: <393BD91D.4DF34877@csufresno.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Robert G. Comegys wrote: > Hi Mark, > > Finnish and Hungarian are Turkish languages, although Hungarian has been > thoroughly saturated with Slavic loan words, something like the way English, a > good Germanic language, is loaded with French. (My apologies to the Germans, > the French, and the English.) Avoue'. > > Basque? Who knows. Its usually considered an isolate by most "responsible" > (read dull and uninteresting) scholars. John, Does total lack of evidence imply that the scholars who have looked at the matter are dull and uninteresting? Correct me if I have this wrong, but the Basque are a pre-Indo-European genetic-linguistic group, ancient european inhabitants, and genetically connected to the Irish. Who knows? Perhaps, they are also connected to the folks found near the coast of Virginia in paleo-indian times that were mentioned recently in the media. Michael > > Regards, > > John Comegys > Mark David Morris wrote: > > > With so many good linguists on the list, I hope someone might confirm or > > correct my understanding that neither Finnish, Hungarian nor Basque are > > Indo-European languages. Thanks, Mark Morris > > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "So, who you gonna believe, me or your own eyes?" -Chico Marx ******************************************************************************* From mdmorris at indiana.edu Mon Jun 5 17:46:52 2000 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 12:46:52 -0500 Subject: Language Families In-Reply-To: <393BD91D.4DF34877@csufresno.edu> Message-ID: Thank you all for the quick responses. Now, I can print my footnotes. I had it understood from working as a folklore bibliographer for the MLA that Hungarian and Finnish seem to show influence from Mongolia. If you have any quetions about classical Chinese intruments Imight be able to squirt out a fact or two from the same storage bank. mochantzinco, Atlihuetzia Tlaxcala ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at Mon Jun 5 18:29:46 2000 From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 20:29:46 +0200 Subject: Language Families Message-ID: "Robert G. Comegys" schrieb:, > Finnish and Hungarian are Turkish languages, -- as Joost Kremer already pointed, Finnish and Hungarian belong to the "Finno-Ugric" language family (together with some smaller languages like Samojedic); the Turk languages belong - as well as the Mongolic - to the "Altai"-family. Both Turk and Finno-Ugric are agglutinative languages but I ?ve never heard of a "superfamily" Finno-Ugric/Altai (but I?m not a linguist so maybe some list member can clear this up) Ciao, Juergen Juergen Stowasser Burggasse 114/2/8 A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a Austria tel: 01/ 524 54 60 0676/ 398 66 79 From TruBluPooh at aol.com Mon Jun 5 18:18:12 2000 From: TruBluPooh at aol.com (TruBluPooh at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:18:12 EDT Subject: Language Families Message-ID: Em uma mensagem de 6/5/00 11:56:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mdmorris at indiana.edu escreveu: << With so many good linguists on the list, I hope someone might confirm or correct my understanding that neither Finnish, Hungarian nor Basque are Indo-European languages. Thanks, Mark Morris >> You are correct in understanding that none of these languages are Indo-European. Finnish and Hungarian belong to the Finno-Ugric family along with such languages as Estonian, Sami, Karelian, Nenets and Khanty. Basque is currently understood to be an isolate language, though a connection to Georgian and other Caucasian languages is being pursued. Other linguists believe it may be related to some non-Arabic North African languages. Yet, others believe it to be entirely in situ. The fact that some basic Basque words seem to be derived from even simpler concepts i.e. aizkora (axe) sharing the same root as the word aitz (rock) may mean that Basque is an extremely old language. John-Francis Fragoso Grasso From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Jun 5 22:19:17 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:19:17 -0400 Subject: Language Families Message-ID: This is true. Finnish and Hungarian belong to the Finno-Ugric language family, and Basque is a language isolate. Fran ---------- >From: Mark David Morris >To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >Subject: Language Families >Date: Mon, Jun 5, 2000, 10:54 AM > > With so many good linguists on the list, I hope someone might confirm or > correct my understanding that neither Finnish, Hungarian nor Basque are > Indo-European languages. Thanks, Mark Morris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more > grief. Eccl 1:18 > > To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To > regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we > are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not > sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 > > MDM, PhD Candidate > Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. > > From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Jun 5 22:24:24 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:24:24 -0400 Subject: Language Families Message-ID: > > Finnish and Hungarian are Turkish languages This is not true. Turkic languages and Finno-Ugric languages have some typological similarities, but Finno-Ugric languages are not "Turkish languages." Fran Karttunen From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Jun 5 22:29:49 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:29:49 -0400 Subject: Language Families Message-ID: > I had it understood from working as a folklore bibliographer for the MLA > that Hungarian and Finnish seem to show influence from Mongolia. There is no direct "influence from Mongolia" on Finnish. There has been some contact between Hungarian and Turkic languages in relatively recent history. Fran Karttunen From micc at home.com Tue Jun 6 04:34:10 2000 From: micc at home.com (mario) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:34:10 -0700 Subject: how do you say? Message-ID: I just received this request......can anyone help me? Hey Compadre, I know your not sleeping yet. Anyway I just had a quick question. How do you say in Nahuatl, You are my friend. Like if you were talking to your close friend and you wanted to tell him, your my friend. Thanks!!!!! mario e. aguilar From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Tue Jun 6 09:35:18 2000 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:35:18 GMT Subject: Language families Message-ID: Frances Karttunen wrote;- > There is no direct "influence from Mongolia" on Finnish. There has been > some contact between Hungarian and Turkic languages in relatively recent > history. There is the inevitable quota of accidental resemblances between unrelated languages, e.g. Gaelic "beag" = Mongolian "baga" = "small", and Greek "theos" = Nahuatl "teotl" = "god". Someone compared modern English with modern Hindi (ignoring recent loanwords). Of the look-alike words that he found, more were accidental resemblances than genuine cognates. Languages gradually drift away from each other. Someone mentioned Basque. My own ideas about Basque are:- (1) It might have been very distantly related to other non-IE languages whose speakers came in up the west end of the Mediterranean: Iberian, Ivernian (an old Irish language), Pictish. But all those languages perished unrecorded. (2) Basque may have undergone a drastic remake in latish prehistoric times, destroying any remaining evidence for old relationships. TruBluPooh at aol.com wrote:- > The fact that some basic Basque words seem to be derived from even simpler > concepts i.e. aizkora (axe) sharing the same root as the word aitz (rock) > may mean that Basque is an extremely old language. But what is an "old language"? Nearly all languages have very old roots. "aizkora" being an apparent compound may mean merely that a previous simple word for "axe" because unusable because of homophony due to phonetic change. From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Jun 6 11:17:20 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 06:17:20 -0500 Subject: how do you say? In-Reply-To: <393C7F42.CC1FD5EC@home.com> Message-ID: tinocniuh (classical) tica nocnin (modern) On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, mario wrote: > I just received this request......can anyone help me? > > > Hey Compadre, I know your not sleeping yet. Anyway I just had a quick > question. How do you say in Nahuatl, You are my friend. Like if you were > talking to > your close friend and you wanted to tell him, your my friend. > > Thanks!!!!! > mario e. aguilar > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu ******************************************************************************* "So, who you gonna believe, me or your own eyes?" -Chico Marx ******************************************************************************* From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx Tue Jun 6 14:06:01 2000 From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:06:01 -0500 Subject: how do you say? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Modern Huastecan Nahuatl (San Luis Potos?): "Taj tinowampox" or "Taj tinowampoyo" John Sullivan Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas on 6/6/00 6:17 AM, Michael Mccafferty at mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > tinocniuh (classical) > > tica nocnin (modern) > > > > On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, mario wrote: > >> I just received this request......can anyone help me? >> >> >> Hey Compadre, I know your not sleeping yet. Anyway I just had a quick >> question. How do you say in Nahuatl, You are my friend. Like if you were >> talking to >> your close friend and you wanted to tell him, your my friend. >> >> Thanks!!!!! >> mario e. aguilar >> >> > > > Michael McCafferty > 307 Memorial Hall > Indiana University > Bloomington, Indiana > 47405 > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > **************************************************************************** **> * > "So, who you gonna believe, > me or your own eyes?" > > -Chico Marx > > **************************************************************************** **> * > > From micc at home.com Tue Jun 6 14:14:53 2000 From: micc at home.com (mario) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 07:14:53 -0700 Subject: how do you say? Message-ID: Thanks Michael!!!!!!!! Michael Mccafferty wrote: > tinocniuh (classical) > > tica nocnin (modern) > > On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, mario wrote: > > > I just received this request......can anyone help me? > > > > > > Hey Compadre, I know your not sleeping yet. Anyway I just had a quick > > question. How do you say in Nahuatl, You are my friend. Like if you were > > talking to > > your close friend and you wanted to tell him, your my friend. > > > > Thanks!!!!! > > mario e. aguilar > > > > > > Michael McCafferty > 307 Memorial Hall > Indiana University > Bloomington, Indiana > 47405 > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > ******************************************************************************* > "So, who you gonna believe, > me or your own eyes?" > > -Chico Marx > > ******************************************************************************* From leonelhermida at netc.pt Tue Jun 6 14:52:31 2000 From: leonelhermida at netc.pt (Leonel Hermida) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:52:31 +0100 Subject: Language Families Message-ID: Further to the remark that: >The fact that some basic Basque >words seem to be derived from even simpler concepts i.e. aizkora (axe) >sharing the same root as the word aitz (rock) may mean that Basque is an >extremely old language, and in the same sense, I apologize for being off-topic, but can't fail to draw attention to the following very basic Basque words which I'm sure all share the same (pre-historic and exceedingly primitive) root, though I've never seen that stated before by any professional linguist: EME=female AMA=mother EMAKUME=woman EMAZTE= woman, wife UME=child SEME=son On the other hand, I did see it stated by more than one competent linguist (sources available if requested) that the putative (genetic) relationship postulated by some between the Uralic (Finnish, Hungarian, etc.) language family and the Turkic language family (this being known as the Ural-Altaic hypothesis) is far from being proved at all. Of course the statement that Finnish and/or Hungarian are Turkic languages ('Turkish' in stead of 'Turkic' would even be worse) was *never* seriously put forth by any professional (or even amateur) linguist and is, as Fran plainly put it, not true. One last thing while I have your attention, is about the influence of Mongolian on at least one Uralic language, namely Hungarian: it comes to the mind the word *b?tor* meaning *brave* which apart from being a fairly common word in Hungarian enters in the very name of the capital city of Mongolia (Ulaan Baator, I think). This must be attributed to historical contact between Turkic and Uralic (better, Hungarian and a few others) on one side and Turkic and Mongolian on the other, rather than being evidence of any (genetic) relationship whatsoever between Uralic and Mongolian. Best, Leonel Hermida -----Original Message----- From: TruBluPooh at aol.com To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Date: Monday, June 05, 2000 7:25 PM Subject: Re: Language Families >Basque is currently understood to be an isolate language, though a connection to >Georgian and other Caucasian languages is being pursued. Other linguists >believe it may be related to some non-Arabic North African languages. Yet, >others believe it to be entirely in situ. The fact that some basic Basque >words seem to be derived from even simpler concepts i.e. aizkora (axe) >sharing the same root as the word aitz (rock) may mean that Basque is an >extremely old language. > >John-Francis Fragoso Grasso From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Tue Jun 6 19:58:47 2000 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:58:47 +0100 Subject: Basque and other relationships Message-ID: Leonel Hermida wrote: > I apologize for being off-topic, but can't fail to draw attention > to the following very basic Basque words which I'm sure all share the > same (pre-historic and exceedingly primitive) root ... EME=female AMA=mother EMAKUME=woman EMAZTE= woman, wife UME=child SEME=son This sort of thing about Basque has been discussed to exhaustion on INDO-EUROPEAN and NOSTRATIC email groups. Words for females with M in are not free from the suspicion of originating with the meaning "mother" or "breast" and being independently imitated ultimately from the same automatic pre-speech suckling noises that babies make. Baby words are likely to get into adult speech as stopgaps when the previous adult words become unusable because of homophony: compare English "nanny" for "child's nurse" to distinguish from "hospital nurse". The Basque speakers have been ruled by Indo-European speakers for so long that many loanwords are likely to have got in, even for family relationships. Compare: English is Germanic, but "uncle" comes from Latin "avunculus". > ... the influence of Mongolian on at least one Uralic language, namely > Hungarian: it comes to the mind the word *b?tor* meaning *brave* which > apart from being a fairly common word in Hungarian enters in the very > name of the capital city of Mongolia (Ulaan Baator, I think). The Mongols under Batu Khan (he was Genghis's son, I think) overran Hungary. It is no wonder a stray loanword got across. The word also got into Hindi as "bahadur". From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Jun 6 20:30:36 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:30:36 -0600 Subject: Basque and other relationships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK, folks. Thank you for your enlightenment regarding Basque and other European languages. I'm afraid that I must step in and call a halt to this line of discussion, as it really has little to do with Nahuatl. Thank you. J. F. Schwaller List owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Jun 6 20:30:25 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:30:25 -0500 Subject: Basque and other relationships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > The Basque speakers have been ruled by Indo-European speakers for so > long that many loanwords are likely to have got in, even for family > relationships. Compare: English is Germanic, but "uncle" comes from > Latin "avunculus". > > > ... the influence of Mongolian on at least one Uralic language, namely > > Hungarian: it comes to the mind the word *b?tor* meaning *brave* which > > apart from being a fairly common word in Hungarian enters in the very > > name of the capital city of Mongolia (Ulaan Baator, I think). > > The Mongols under Batu Khan (he was Genghis's son, I think) overran > Hungary. It is no wonder a stray loanword got across. The word also got > into Hindi as "bahadur". Loan words are a source of mystery. Consider Miami-Illinois, a Great Lakes Algonquian language, in which the word for "eight" is a borrowing from Siouan Tutelo. How in the devil that happened is anybody's guess. Michael From jrader at m-w.com Tue Jun 6 17:03:36 2000 From: jrader at m-w.com (Jim Rader) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:03:36 +0000 Subject: Basque and other relationships Message-ID: > > ... the influence of Mongolian on at least one Uralic language, namely > > Hungarian: it comes to the mind the word *bator* meaning *brave* which > > apart from being a fairly common word in Hungarian enters in the very > > name of the capital city of Mongolia (Ulaan Baator, I think). > > The Mongols under Batu Khan (he was Genghis's son, I think) overran > Hungary. It is no wonder a stray loanword got across. The word also got > into Hindi as "bahadur". > > WAY off the topic of this list, but this etymon probably originated in Turkic and was borrowed into Mongolian. Gerard Clauson thought was itself a loanword into Turkic from a Xiongnu personal name. From Turkic the word was borrowed into Persian and hence into Indo-Aryan languages such as Hindi, and back into some Turkic languages from Persian. Hungarian was borrowed from Turkic, not Mongolian; direct Hungarian contact with the Mongols was slight. Also from Turkic, directly or indirectly, are words for "hero" in various Slavic languages (Russian , Polish , etc.). To correct something said in an earlier post: Hungarian has a number of loanwords from Slavic, but the Slavic influence on Hungarian is not at all comparable to the French influence on English. Enough--let's get back to Nahuatl. Jim Rader From robc at csufresno.edu Wed Jun 7 01:48:03 2000 From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert G. Comegys) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:48:03 -0700 Subject: Language Families, my apologies Message-ID: My apologies to the group for mislabeling conclusions drawn from other sources as "linguistic". No, actually I am not a linguist, and will certainly remember this better in the future. Usually I am very careful to not overstate conclusions and to cite sourtces. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I will resume my place in the back of the class and try to learn something of nahuat-l. John Comegys > > Mark David Morris wrote: > > > With so many good linguists on the list, I hope someone might confirm or > > correct my understanding that neither Finnish, Hungarian nor Basque are > > Indo-European languages. Thanks, Mark Morris > > From aows at swbell.net Wed Jun 7 16:33:02 2000 From: aows at swbell.net (Alexander Wallace) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:33:02 -0600 Subject: Catalan: NOY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm sorry, I know this is way off topic, but I can't find the translation from Cataln of the word NOY, either to spanish or english, and since out there in the list there might be people with knowledg about this I just thought I'd ask.... Thanks! -----Original Message----- From: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]On Behalf Of anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 1:59 PM To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Cc: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Subject: Basque and other relationships Leonel Hermida wrote: > I apologize for being off-topic, but can't fail to draw attention > to the following very basic Basque words which I'm sure all share the > same (pre-historic and exceedingly primitive) root ... EME=female AMA=mother EMAKUME=woman EMAZTE= woman, wife UME=child SEME=son This sort of thing about Basque has been discussed to exhaustion on INDO-EUROPEAN and NOSTRATIC email groups. Words for females with M in are not free from the suspicion of originating with the meaning "mother" or "breast" and being independently imitated ultimately from the same automatic pre-speech suckling noises that babies make. Baby words are likely to get into adult speech as stopgaps when the previous adult words become unusable because of homophony: compare English "nanny" for "child's nurse" to distinguish from "hospital nurse". The Basque speakers have been ruled by Indo-European speakers for so long that many loanwords are likely to have got in, even for family relationships. Compare: English is Germanic, but "uncle" comes from Latin "avunculus". > ... the influence of Mongolian on at least one Uralic language, namely > Hungarian: it comes to the mind the word *b?tor* meaning *brave* which > apart from being a fairly common word in Hungarian enters in the very > name of the capital city of Mongolia (Ulaan Baator, I think). The Mongols under Batu Khan (he was Genghis's son, I think) overran Hungary. It is no wonder a stray loanword got across. The word also got into Hindi as "bahadur". From nahualli at highfiber.com Wed Jun 7 19:26:28 2000 From: nahualli at highfiber.com (Brant Gardner) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:26:28 -0600 Subject: Catalan: NOY In-Reply-To: <001401bfd09e$0cf75850$e3706f6e@quetzalcoatl> Message-ID: I do not speak Catalan, but do have a Catalan-Spanish dictionary. It gives the word as NOI and translates it chico/muchacho (young man) ___________________ Brant Gardner Albuquerque, NM nahualli at highfiber.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]On Behalf Of Alexander Wallace Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 10:33 AM To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Subject: Catalan: NOY I'm sorry, I know this is way off topic, but I can't find the translation from Cataln of the word NOY, either to spanish or english, and since out there in the list there might be people with knowledg about this I just thought I'd ask.... Thanks! -----Original Message----- From: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]On Behalf Of anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 1:59 PM To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Cc: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Subject: Basque and other relationships Leonel Hermida wrote: > I apologize for being off-topic, but can't fail to draw attention > to the following very basic Basque words which I'm sure all share the > same (pre-historic and exceedingly primitive) root ... EME=female AMA=mother EMAKUME=woman EMAZTE= woman, wife UME=child SEME=son This sort of thing about Basque has been discussed to exhaustion on INDO-EUROPEAN and NOSTRATIC email groups. Words for females with M in are not free from the suspicion of originating with the meaning "mother" or "breast" and being independently imitated ultimately from the same automatic pre-speech suckling noises that babies make. Baby words are likely to get into adult speech as stopgaps when the previous adult words become unusable because of homophony: compare English "nanny" for "child's nurse" to distinguish from "hospital nurse". The Basque speakers have been ruled by Indo-European speakers for so long that many loanwords are likely to have got in, even for family relationships. Compare: English is Germanic, but "uncle" comes from Latin "avunculus". > ... the influence of Mongolian on at least one Uralic language, namely > Hungarian: it comes to the mind the word *b?tor* meaning *brave* which > apart from being a fairly common word in Hungarian enters in the very > name of the capital city of Mongolia (Ulaan Baator, I think). The Mongols under Batu Khan (he was Genghis's son, I think) overran Hungary. It is no wonder a stray loanword got across. The word also got into Hindi as "bahadur". From pkurtboke at mail.hotkey.net.au Thu Jun 8 07:17:58 2000 From: pkurtboke at mail.hotkey.net.au (P. Kurtboke) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:17:58 +1000 Subject: Basque and other relationships In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000606143036.00b55870@selway.umt.edu> Message-ID: Incidentally, Basque, Turkish, Hungarian, Finnish and a few more happen to agglutinate. Those dealing with parsers and other analysis tools for these languages might have a bit more than little to do with Nahuatl...After all, we all try to reveal the mysteries of affix combinations in our respective languages and might all benefit from collaboration. Petek ps 'tepe' in Turkish means 'hill' >OK, folks. Thank you for your enlightenment regarding Basque and other >European languages. I'm afraid that I must step in and call a halt to this >line of discussion, as it really has little to do with Nahuatl. > >Thank you. > >J. F. Schwaller >List owner > From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Thu Jun 8 10:14:13 2000 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 10:14:13 GMT Subject: (parsers (was: Re: Language families) Message-ID: J. F. Schwaller reminded us that Basque etc is off-topic for this group. "P. Kurtboke" answered:- > Incidentally, Basque, Turkish, Hungarian, Finnish and a few more happen to > agglutinate. Those dealing with parsers and other analysis tools for these > languages might have a bit more than little to do with Nahuatl...After all, > we all try to reveal the mysteries of affix combinations in our respective > languages and might all benefit from collaboration. I have written a parser / auto-translater program for an agglutinating language - for the invented Star Trek Klingon language, which is more regular than natural languages tend to be. I wrote it individually for that language, in Gnu C++ for DOS, not using any programmable parser format like YACC or etc. I could try to adapt it for Nahuatl (and Windows) if I had to, but coping with spelling rule variations and the results of assimilations etc at morpheme junctions would add complications. From pkurtboke at mail.hotkey.net.au Thu Jun 8 10:16:10 2000 From: pkurtboke at mail.hotkey.net.au (P. Kurtboke) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:16:10 +1000 Subject: (parsers (was: Re: Language families) In-Reply-To: <32E58731C94@fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk> Message-ID: At 10:14 AM 6/8/00 GMT, you wrote: > J. F. Schwaller reminded us that Basque etc is off-topic for this group. Anthony, my message was not about that. I was simply hesitant to change the subject line and thought long about it before posting my message. > >I have written a parser / auto-translater program for an agglutinating >language - for the invented Star Trek Klingon language, which is more regular >than natural languages tend to be. I wrote it individually for that language, >in Gnu C++ for DOS, not using any programmable parser format like YACC or etc. >I could try to adapt it for Nahuatl (and Windows) if I had to, but coping with >spelling rule variations and the results of assimilations etc at morpheme >junctions would add complications. > You're welcome to try it on my corpus of 1000 Turkish texts. Petek From aows at swbell.net Thu Jun 8 15:30:21 2000 From: aows at swbell.net (Alexander Wallace) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:30:21 -0600 Subject: Catalan: NOY: Thanks! In-Reply-To: <000001bfd0b7$5efd14a0$3d822a40@brantg> Message-ID: I thank everyone for helping me with that word. For some reason I have it as NOY, but it may by just a typo, it is the title of a popular (clasic) catalan song: EL NOY (noi?) DE LA MARE. El chico de mama'? Makes sense... Thanks again! -----Original Message----- From: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]On Behalf Of Brant Gardner Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 1:26 PM To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Subject: RE: Catalan: NOY I do not speak Catalan, but do have a Catalan-Spanish dictionary. It gives the word as NOI and translates it chico/muchacho (young man) ___________________ Brant Gardner Albuquerque, NM nahualli at highfiber.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]On Behalf Of Alexander Wallace Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 10:33 AM To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Subject: Catalan: NOY I'm sorry, I know this is way off topic, but I can't find the translation from Cataln of the word NOY, either to spanish or english, and since out there in the list there might be people with knowledg about this I just thought I'd ask.... Thanks! -----Original Message----- From: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu]On Behalf Of anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 1:59 PM To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Cc: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Subject: Basque and other relationships Leonel Hermida wrote: > I apologize for being off-topic, but can't fail to draw attention > to the following very basic Basque words which I'm sure all share the > same (pre-historic and exceedingly primitive) root ... EME=female AMA=mother EMAKUME=woman EMAZTE= woman, wife UME=child SEME=son This sort of thing about Basque has been discussed to exhaustion on INDO-EUROPEAN and NOSTRATIC email groups. Words for females with M in are not free from the suspicion of originating with the meaning "mother" or "breast" and being independently imitated ultimately from the same automatic pre-speech suckling noises that babies make. Baby words are likely to get into adult speech as stopgaps when the previous adult words become unusable because of homophony: compare English "nanny" for "child's nurse" to distinguish from "hospital nurse". The Basque speakers have been ruled by Indo-European speakers for so long that many loanwords are likely to have got in, even for family relationships. Compare: English is Germanic, but "uncle" comes from Latin "avunculus". > ... the influence of Mongolian on at least one Uralic language, namely > Hungarian: it comes to the mind the word *b?tor* meaning *brave* which > apart from being a fairly common word in Hungarian enters in the very > name of the capital city of Mongolia (Ulaan Baator, I think). The Mongols under Batu Khan (he was Genghis's son, I think) overran Hungary. It is no wonder a stray loanword got across. The word also got into Hindi as "bahadur". From RCRAPO at hass3.hass.usu.edu Mon Jun 12 21:07:22 2000 From: RCRAPO at hass3.hass.usu.edu (Richley Crapo) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:07:22 -0600 Subject: Aztec Idioms Message-ID: Is "cuali eztli" an original Nahuatl idiom for "of noble lineage", or is this more likely a loan-translation from Spanish into Nahuatl? richley From alina at dir.bg Thu Jun 15 12:40:50 2000 From: alina at dir.bg (Maria) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:40:50 0300 Subject: enseñanza de nahuatl Message-ID: Estimados amigos: permitenme saludarles y presentarme - me llamo María Guerguíeva y soy una enamorada de la cultura mexicana, en general, y de la nahua, en particular, estoy haciendo la carrera de Letras Hispánicas en la Universidad de Sofía y en el momento actual me dedico a la traducción de poesía azteca /en la versión al castellano de Ángel Garibay y de Miguel León-Portilla/. Mi sueño e intención es estudiar en un futuro próximo la lengua nahuatl para llevar a cabo una mejor traducción de los textos. Les sería enormemente agradecida si alguno de Ustedes pudiera informarmarme acerca de la enseñanza del idioma náhuatl:dónde se enseña, cuáles son los requisitos de admisión, etc... Gracias de antemano: María ---------------------------------------------------- ????????? ???? ?? dir.bg! Free e-mail from dir.bg! http://www.dir.bg ---------------------------------------------------- From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Jun 20 15:24:46 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:24:46 -0600 Subject: New article Message-ID: Francis, Norbert "The shared conceptual system and language processing in bilingual children: Findings from literacy assessment in Spanish and Nahuatl. " _Applied linguistics_. vol. 21 num. 2 (JUN 01 2000), p. 170 John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Jun 20 16:39:50 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:39:50 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Dumbarton Oaks Pre-Columbian Studies Symposium, 7 & 8 October 200 0, Organized by John B. Carlson Message-ID: >From: "Willson, Rebecca" >Subject: Dumbarton Oaks Pre-Columbian Studies Symposium, 7 & 8 October 200 > 0, Organized by John B. Carlson >Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:13:40 -0400 > > > > Pre-Columbian Symposium >October 7 - 8 , 2000 > > > PILGRIMAGE AND THE RITUAL LANDSCAPE > > IN PRE-COLUMBIAN AMERICA > > > > organized by > > > > John B. Carlson > > > > > > Ancient Americans ordered the natural world on cosmological > > principles. Mountains and springs, plains and rivers, were points and > > channels of sacred power from historical events and timeless sacred > > forces. Geographical features were inscribed by human hands to mark their > > sacredness while temples and shrines replicated holy mountains, caves, and > > water sources. Throughout the New World natural and constructed places > > commonly became centers of pilgrimage in patterns often maintained to the > > present. > > > > This symposium will explore sacred landscapes and pilgrimage in the > > New World, drawing upon a few of the many examples available. The > > perspective will be multi-disciplinary, cross-cultural, and examine wider > > issues for understanding these issues beyond the New World. > > > > The lifetime work of two innovative, influential scholars will be > > acknowledged in this Symposium. As active researchers, Doris Heyden, > > Investigador Nacional and Anthropologist and Ethnohistorian at the > > Direccion de Etnologia y Antropologia Social - Instituto Nacional de > > Antropologia e Historia, Mexico, and Evon Z. Vogt, Professor Emeritus of > > Anthropology at Harvard University will take a participatory role in the > > symposium. > > > > The symposium is open to scholars and advanced graduate students. If you > > wish to attend, please complete the enclosed registration form and return > > it with the $40 registration fee ($30 for graduate students). This covers > > admission to the scholarly sessions and the Saturday evening cocktail > > party. Lunch is offered on Saturday by prior subscription for $15, > > payable in advance with the registration fee. Deadline for registration > > is September 24, but you are urged to respond as soon as possible. The > > maximum number of participants is 200, accepted on a "first come, first > > served" basis. Information on area hotels and taxis will be sent to you > > when your registration is confirmed. > > > > Please bring this notice to the attention of appropriate colleagues > > and students, who may use a duplicate of the form to register. Please > > address all correspondence to: > > > > Pre-Columbian Studies, Dumbarton Oaks > > 1703 32nd Street NW, Washington, DC 20007 > > > > or email: Pre-Columbian at doaks.org > > > > > > > > * No registrations will be accepted via email. > > * No fees are payable by credit card. > > > > > > > > > > Tentative Agenda > > > > Pilgrimage and the Ritual Landscape in Pre-Columbian America > > > > > > Saturday, October 8, 2000 > > > > 8:00 - 8:45 Registration, Coffee on the Terrace > > > > Morning Session > > > > Clive L. N. Ruggles (University of Leicester): Landscape Archaeology and > > the Archaeology of Pilgrimage: A View from Across the Atlantic > > > > Sabine G. MacCormack (University of Michigan): Strangers and Pilgrims > > > > Helaine Silverman (University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana): Pilgrimage > > and Sacred Landscapes in Ancient Nazca > > > > Johan Reinhard (The Mountain Institute and National Geographic Society): > > Sacred Mountains, Human Sacrifices, and Pilgrimages Among the Inca > > > > 12:30 - 2:00 Lunch at Dumbarton Oaks (by subscription) > > > > > > Afternoon Session: > > > > Barbara Tedlock (State University of New York - Buffalo): Momostenango, > > 'Town of Shrines': The Archaeological Implications of A Living Maya > > Calendrical Pilgrimage Center > > > > Evon Z. Vogt (Harvard University): Micro-pilgimages to the Mountain and > > Waterhole Shrines in the Tzotzil-Maya Community of Zinacantan > > > > Andrea Stone (University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee) and James Brady > > (California State University-Los Angeles): The Road to Xibalba: Regional > > Pilgrimage Caves in the Maya Area > > > > William L. Fash and David Stuart (Harvard University): Sacbes, Sacred > > Mountains, and Ceremonial Circuits in the Copan Valley > > > > Stephen H. Lekson and Gretchen Jordan (University of Colorado-Boulder): > > Landscape, Pilgrimage, and Power in the Ancient Southwest > > > > 5:30 - 7:00 Cocktail Reception > > -over- > > > > > > > > Sunday, October 10, 1999 > > > > 8:30 - 9:00 Coffee on the Terrace > > > > > > 9:00 - 12:30 Morning Session > > > > John M. D. Pohl (Independent Scholar) and Javier Urcid (Brandeis > > University): Sacred Caves and Migration Legends as Allegories for > > Postclassic Alliance and Exchange Networks > > > > Michael D. Lind (Independent Scholar): Pilgrimage and the Ritual Landscape > > in Ancient Cholula > > > > Richard Townsend (Art Institute of Chicago): From Landscape to Symbol at > > Tezcotzingo and Mt. Tlaloc > > > > John B. Carlson (Center for Archaeoastronomy and University of Maryland, > > College Park): La Malinche and San Miguel: Pilgrimage and Sacrifice to the > > Mountains of Sustanence in the Mexican Altiplano > > > > Doris Heyden (DEAS-INAH: Direccion de Etnologia y Antropologia Social - > > Instituto Nacional de Antropologiae Historia, Mexico): The Effect of > > Natural Disasters on the Landscape of Mexico, and How These Created > > Pilgrimage Centers: Caves, Mountains, etc." > > > > Please consider that the Symposium may continue until 1:30 p.m. when > > making your travel arrangements > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > REGISTRATION FORM > > > > Please register me for the Symposium: > > > > Pilgrimage and the Ritual Landscape in Pre-Columbian America > > October 7-8, 2000 > > > > > > $40 fee enclosed $____________ > > $30 student fee enclosed $____________ > > $15 lunch fee enclosed for Oct. > > $____________ > > TOTAL ENCLOSED $____________ > > > > > > PRINT name and affiliation as you wish them to appear on your > > identification badge. > > > > Name_________________________________________________________ > > > > Affiliation_____________________________________________________ > > > > Work Phone_______________________________________________________ > > > > Home Phone (optional____________________________________ > > > > Mailing address (include your affiliation's name again if it is part of > > your > > address):_____________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > > > > Email address______________________________________________________ > > > > The registration fee must be paid by September 25th and is not refundable. > > For lunch refund, cancellation must be received no later than September > > 28th. Payment received after spaces have been filled will be returned. > > Your registration will be acknowledged by postcard. > > > > Please mail this form with check payable to DUMBARTON OAKS to: > > > > Pre-Columbian Studies > > Attn: Symposium > > Dumbarton Oaks > > 1703 32nd Street, NW > > Washington, DC 20007 > > From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Jun 20 17:03:45 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:03:45 -0600 Subject: Dumbarton Oaks - Revised Message-ID: Please note that the Program contains several errors. The conference will take place on October 7 & 8, 2000, Saturday and Sunday. > Subject: Dumbarton Oaks Pre-Columbian Studies Symposium, 7 & 8 > October 2000, Organized by John B. Carlson > > > > Pre-Columbian Symposium > October 7 - 8 , 2000 > > PILGRIMAGE AND THE RITUAL LANDSCAPE > IN PRE-COLUMBIAN AMERICA > > organized by > > John B. Carlson > > > Ancient Americans ordered the natural world on cosmological > principles. Mountains and springs, plains and rivers, were points and > channels of sacred power from historical events and timeless sacred > forces. Geographical features were inscribed by human hands to mark their > sacredness while temples and shrines replicated holy mountains, caves, and > water sources. Throughout the New World natural and constructed places > commonly became centers of pilgrimage in patterns often maintained to the > present. > > This symposium will explore sacred landscapes and pilgrimage in the > New World, drawing upon a few of the many examples available. The > perspective will be multi-disciplinary, cross-cultural, and examine wider > issues for understanding these issues beyond the New World. > > The lifetime work of two innovative, influential scholars will be > acknowledged in this Symposium. As active researchers, Doris Heyden, > Investigador Nacional and Anthropologist and Ethnohistorian at the > Direccion de Etnologia y Antropologia Social - Instituto Nacional de > Antropologia e Historia, Mexico, and Evon Z. Vogt, Professor Emeritus of > Anthropology at Harvard University will take a participatory role in the > symposium. > > The symposium is open to scholars and advanced graduate students. If you > wish to attend, please complete the enclosed registration form and return > it with the $40 registration fee ($30 for graduate students). This covers > admission to the scholarly sessions and the Saturday evening cocktail > party. Lunch is offered on Saturday by prior subscription for $15, > payable in advance with the registration fee. Deadline for registration > is September 25, but you are urged to respond as soon as possible. The > maximum number of participants is 200, accepted on a "first come, first > served" basis. Information on area hotels and taxis will be sent to you > when your registration is confirmed. > > Please bring this notice to the attention of appropriate colleagues > and students, who may use a duplicate of the form to register. Please > address all correspondence to: > > Pre-Columbian Studies, Dumbarton Oaks > 1703 32nd Street NW, Washington, DC 20007 > > or email: Pre-Columbian at doaks.org > > > > * No registrations will be accepted via email. > * No fees are payable by credit card. > > > > > Tentative Agenda > > Pilgrimage and the Ritual Landscape in Pre-Columbian America > > > Friday, October 7, 2000 > > 8:00 - 8:45 Registration, Coffee on the Terrace > > Morning Session > > Clive L. N. Ruggles (University of Leicester): Landscape Archaeology and > the Archaeology of Pilgrimage: A View from Across the Atlantic > > Sabine G. MacCormack (University of Michigan): Strangers and Pilgrims > > Helaine Silverman (University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana): Pilgrimage > and Sacred Landscapes in Ancient Nazca > > Johan Reinhard (The Mountain Institute and National Geographic Society): > Sacred Mountains, Human Sacrifices, and Pilgrimages Among the Inca > > 12:30 - 2:00 Lunch at Dumbarton Oaks (by subscription) > > > Afternoon Session: > > Barbara Tedlock (State University of New York - Buffalo): Momostenango, > 'Town of Shrines': The Archaeological Implications of A Living Maya > Calendrical Pilgrimage Center > > Evon Z. Vogt (Harvard University): Micro-pilgimages to the Mountain and > Waterhole Shrines in the Tzotzil-Maya Community of Zinacantan > > Andrea Stone (University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee) and James Brady > (California State University-Los Angeles): The Road to Xibalba: Regional > Pilgrimage Caves in the Maya Area > > William L. Fash and David Stuart (Harvard University): Sacbes, Sacred > Mountains, and Ceremonial Circuits in the Copan Valley > > Stephen H. Lekson and Gretchen Jordan (University of Colorado-Boulder): > Landscape, Pilgrimage, and Power in the Ancient Southwest > > 5:30 - 7:00 Cocktail Reception > -over- > > > > Saturday, October 8th, 2000 > > 8:30 - 9:00 Coffee on the Terrace > > > 9:00 - 12:30 Morning Session > > John M. D. Pohl (Independent Scholar) and Javier Urcid (Brandeis > University): Sacred Caves and Migration Legends as Allegories for > Postclassic Alliance and Exchange Networks > > Michael D. Lind (Independent Scholar): Pilgrimage and the Ritual Landscape > in Ancient Cholula > > Richard Townsend (Art Institute of Chicago): From Landscape to Symbol at > Tezcotzingo and Mt. Tlaloc > > John B. Carlson (Center for Archaeoastronomy and University of Maryland, > College Park): La Malinche and San Miguel: Pilgrimage and Sacrifice to the > Mountains of Sustanence in the Mexican Altiplano > > Doris Heyden (DEAS-INAH: Direccion de Etnologia y Antropologia Social - > Instituto Nacional de Antropologiae Historia, Mexico): The Effect of > Natural Disasters on the Landscape of Mexico, and How These Created > Pilgrimage Centers: Caves, Mountains, etc." > > Please consider that the Symposium may continue until 1:30 p.m. when > making your travel arrangements > > > > > > > > > > REGISTRATION FORM > > Please register me for the Symposium: > > Pilgrimage and the Ritual Landscape in Pre-Columbian America > October 7-8, 2000 > > > $40 fee enclosed $____________ > $30 student fee enclosed $____________ > $15 lunch fee enclosed for Oct. > $____________ > TOTAL ENCLOSED $____________ > > > PRINT name and affiliation as you wish them to appear on your > identification badge. > > Name_________________________________________________________ > > Affiliation_____________________________________________________ > > Work Phone_______________________________________________________ > > Home Phone (optional____________________________________ > > Mailing address (include your affiliation's name again if it is part of > your > address):_____________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________ > > Email address______________________________________________________ > > The registration fee must be paid by September 25th and is not refundable. > For lunch refund, cancellation must be received no later than September > 28th. Payment received after spaces have been filled will be returned. > Your registration will be acknowledged by postcard. > > Please mail this form with check payable to DUMBARTON OAKS to: > > Pre-Columbian Studies > Attn: Symposium > Dumbarton Oaks > 1703 32nd Street, NW > Washington, DC 20007 > From heatherhess at hotmail.com Wed Jun 21 15:07:52 2000 From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 08:07:52 PDT Subject: Dumbarton Oaks - Revised Message-ID: Does this conference really only cost $40.00 U.S.!!!! Where is Dumbarton Oaks please. I have read references to it in the book written with Thelma Sullivan's translations but am not familiar with it! However, I have wanted to go there and this is my opportunity - wow - what an opportunity! Yolohtzin >From: "John F. Schwaller" >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >Subject: Dumbarton Oaks - Revised >Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:03:45 -0600 > >Please note that the Program contains several errors. The conference will >take place on October 7 & 8, 2000, Saturday and Sunday. > > > Subject: Dumbarton Oaks Pre-Columbian Studies Symposium, 7 & 8 > > October 2000, Organized by John B. Carlson > > > > > > > > Pre-Columbian Symposium > > October 7 - 8 , 2000 > > > > PILGRIMAGE AND THE RITUAL LANDSCAPE > > IN PRE-COLUMBIAN AMERICA > > > > organized by > > > > John B. Carlson > > > > > > Ancient Americans ordered the natural world on cosmological > > principles. Mountains and springs, plains and rivers, were points and > > channels of sacred power from historical events and timeless sacred > > forces. Geographical features were inscribed by human hands to mark >their > > sacredness while temples and shrines replicated holy mountains, caves, >and > > water sources. Throughout the New World natural and constructed places > > commonly became centers of pilgrimage in patterns often maintained to >the > > present. > > > > This symposium will explore sacred landscapes and pilgrimage in the > > New World, drawing upon a few of the many examples available. The > > perspective will be multi-disciplinary, cross-cultural, and examine >wider > > issues for understanding these issues beyond the New World. > > > > The lifetime work of two innovative, influential scholars will be > > acknowledged in this Symposium. As active researchers, Doris Heyden, > > Investigador Nacional and Anthropologist and Ethnohistorian at the > > Direccion de Etnologia y Antropologia Social - Instituto Nacional de > > Antropologia e Historia, Mexico, and Evon Z. Vogt, Professor Emeritus of > > Anthropology at Harvard University will take a participatory role in the > > symposium. > > > > The symposium is open to scholars and advanced graduate students. If you > > wish to attend, please complete the enclosed registration form and >return > > it with the $40 registration fee ($30 for graduate students). This >covers > > admission to the scholarly sessions and the Saturday evening cocktail > > party. Lunch is offered on Saturday by prior subscription for $15, > > payable in advance with the registration fee. Deadline for registration > > is September 25, but you are urged to respond as soon as possible. The > > maximum number of participants is 200, accepted on a "first come, first > > served" basis. Information on area hotels and taxis will be sent to you > > when your registration is confirmed. > > > > Please bring this notice to the attention of appropriate colleagues > > and students, who may use a duplicate of the form to register. Please > > address all correspondence to: > > > > Pre-Columbian Studies, Dumbarton Oaks > > 1703 32nd Street NW, Washington, DC 20007 > > > > or email: Pre-Columbian at doaks.org > > > > > > > > * No registrations will be accepted via email. > > * No fees are payable by credit card. > > > > > > > > > > Tentative Agenda > > > > Pilgrimage and the Ritual Landscape in Pre-Columbian America > > > > > > Friday, October 7, 2000 > > > > 8:00 - 8:45 Registration, Coffee on the Terrace > > > > Morning Session > > > > Clive L. N. Ruggles (University of Leicester): Landscape Archaeology and > > the Archaeology of Pilgrimage: A View from Across the Atlantic > > > > Sabine G. MacCormack (University of Michigan): Strangers and Pilgrims > > > > Helaine Silverman (University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana): >Pilgrimage > > and Sacred Landscapes in Ancient Nazca > > > > Johan Reinhard (The Mountain Institute and National Geographic Society): > > Sacred Mountains, Human Sacrifices, and Pilgrimages Among the Inca > > > > 12:30 - 2:00 Lunch at Dumbarton Oaks (by subscription) > > > > > > Afternoon Session: > > > > Barbara Tedlock (State University of New York - Buffalo): Momostenango, > > 'Town of Shrines': The Archaeological Implications of A Living Maya > > Calendrical Pilgrimage Center > > > > Evon Z. Vogt (Harvard University): Micro-pilgimages to the Mountain and > > Waterhole Shrines in the Tzotzil-Maya Community of Zinacantan > > > > Andrea Stone (University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee) and James Brady > > (California State University-Los Angeles): The Road to Xibalba: Regional > > Pilgrimage Caves in the Maya Area > > > > William L. Fash and David Stuart (Harvard University): Sacbes, Sacred > > Mountains, and Ceremonial Circuits in the Copan Valley > > > > Stephen H. Lekson and Gretchen Jordan (University of Colorado-Boulder): > > Landscape, Pilgrimage, and Power in the Ancient Southwest > > > > 5:30 - 7:00 Cocktail Reception > > -over- > > > > > > > > Saturday, October 8th, 2000 > > > > 8:30 - 9:00 Coffee on the Terrace > > > > > > 9:00 - 12:30 Morning Session > > > > John M. D. Pohl (Independent Scholar) and Javier Urcid (Brandeis > > University): Sacred Caves and Migration Legends as Allegories for > > Postclassic Alliance and Exchange Networks > > > > Michael D. Lind (Independent Scholar): Pilgrimage and the Ritual >Landscape > > in Ancient Cholula > > > > Richard Townsend (Art Institute of Chicago): From Landscape to Symbol at > > Tezcotzingo and Mt. Tlaloc > > > > John B. Carlson (Center for Archaeoastronomy and University of Maryland, > > College Park): La Malinche and San Miguel: Pilgrimage and Sacrifice to >the > > Mountains of Sustanence in the Mexican Altiplano > > > > Doris Heyden (DEAS-INAH: Direccion de Etnologia y Antropologia Social - > > Instituto Nacional de Antropologiae Historia, Mexico): The Effect of > > Natural Disasters on the Landscape of Mexico, and How These Created > > Pilgrimage Centers: Caves, Mountains, etc." > > > > Please consider that the Symposium may continue until 1:30 p.m. when > > making your travel arrangements > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > REGISTRATION FORM > > > > Please register me for the Symposium: > > > > Pilgrimage and the Ritual Landscape in Pre-Columbian America > > October 7-8, 2000 > > > > > > $40 fee enclosed $____________ > > $30 student fee enclosed $____________ > > $15 lunch fee enclosed for Oct. > > $____________ > > TOTAL ENCLOSED $____________ > > > > > > PRINT name and affiliation as you wish them to appear on your > > identification badge. > > > > Name_________________________________________________________ > > > > Affiliation_____________________________________________________ > > > > Work Phone_______________________________________________________ > > > > Home Phone (optional____________________________________ > > > > Mailing address (include your affiliation's name again if it is part of > > your > > address):_____________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > > > > Email address______________________________________________________ > > > > The registration fee must be paid by September 25th and is not >refundable. > > For lunch refund, cancellation must be received no later than September > > 28th. Payment received after spaces have been filled will be returned. > > Your registration will be acknowledged by postcard. > > > > Please mail this form with check payable to DUMBARTON OAKS to: > > > > Pre-Columbian Studies > > Attn: Symposium > > Dumbarton Oaks > > 1703 32nd Street, NW > > Washington, DC 20007 > > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Wed Jun 21 15:30:34 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:30:34 -0600 Subject: Dumbarton Oaks - Revised In-Reply-To: <20000621150752.82519.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Dumbarton Oaks is located in Washington, DC, just north of Georgetown. For more information regarding it see: http://www.doaks.org/ Also, when replying to a long posting, please do NOT include the entirety of the original message. J. F. Schwaller List Owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From pkurtboke at mail.hotkey.net.au Fri Jun 23 07:13:24 2000 From: pkurtboke at mail.hotkey.net.au (P. Kurtboke) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:13:24 +1000 Subject: New article In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20000620092236.00bc6e20@selway.umt.edu> Message-ID: > > Francis, Norbert >"The shared conceptual system and language processing in bilingual children: >Findings from literacy assessment in Spanish and Nahuatl. " >_Applied linguistics_. vol. 21 num. 2 (JUN 01 2000), p. 170 Thanks for this most interesting reference and I'd like to contact the author. If he's a subscriber to the list or if there are subscribers who know him, his e-mail address would be much appreciated. Petek From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Fri Jun 23 15:27:12 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:27:12 -0600 Subject: Pre-Columbian Society of Washington, DC Message-ID: The Pre-Columbian Society of Washington, DC will hold a one-day seminar entitled: "Are we Having Fun Yet? Pleasurable Activities in Ancient America" Satuday, September 16 US Navy Memorial and Naval Heritage Center 701 Pennsylvania Ave, NW Washington DC The scheduled speakers include: Jeffrey Quilter, "At Work, Rest, or Play? The Question of Leisure in Ancient America" Susan Today Evans, "'Mid Pleasures and Palaces: Aztec Nobles at Home and at Play" Jill Leslie McKeever-Furst, "Compulsory Play: The Leisure Activities of Aztec Children and Youths" Warren DeBoer, "Of Dice and Women: Gambling and Exchange in Native North America" Karl Taube, "American Gladiators: Competitive Combat in Ancient Mesoamerica" Justin Kerr, "A Good Times was had by all: Fun and Games among the Ancient Maya" For further information contact the Society: Registration Coordinator 11104 Bucknell Dr. Silver Spring, MD 20902-4432 Leisure at ancientamerica.net John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/history/NAHUATL/ From Norbert.Francis at nau.edu Fri Jun 23 16:37:59 2000 From: Norbert.Francis at nau.edu (Norbert Francis) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:37:59 -0700 Subject: New article In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000623171324.007a58d0@pop.hotkey.net.au> Message-ID: Thank you for your interest in our project. Feel free to write to norbert.francis at nau.edu for more information. >> >> Francis, Norbert >>"The shared conceptual system and language processing in bilingual children: >>Findings from literacy assessment in Spanish and Nahuatl. " >>_Applied linguistics_. vol. 21 num. 2 (JUN 01 2000), p. 170 > >Thanks for this most interesting reference and I'd like to contact the >author. If he's a subscriber to the list or if there are subscribers who >know him, his e-mail address would be much appreciated. > >Petek From CHMuths at aol.com Thu Jun 29 21:23:12 2000 From: CHMuths at aol.com (CHMuths at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:23:12 EDT Subject: Language Families Message-ID: Christa From pkurtboke at mail.hotkey.net.au Fri Jun 30 06:50:58 2000 From: pkurtboke at mail.hotkey.net.au (P. Kurtboke) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:50:58 +1000 Subject: monosyllabic verbs, '-li', reviews In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000608171758.00794100@pop.hotkey.net.au> Message-ID: Three questions: 1) A count of monosyllabic verbs in my corpus of Turkish displays 144. I would like to know if there's a significant number of monosyllabic verbs in Nahuatl? 2) '-li' is a very productive suffix in Turkish. Can someone say a few words about its function in Nahuatl? 3) I'm reading Brian Hamnett's 'A Concise History of Mexico' (CUP 1999). Is anyone aware of this book's reviews? Thanks Petek