From indus56 at telusplanet.net Tue Oct 10 00:17:17 2000 From: indus56 at telusplanet.net (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 18:17:17 -0600 Subject: Matl / Tezcatlipoca? Message-ID: Hi all, happy thanksgiving to those who celebrate it. At the AHILA website I ran across a fragment of what the author, Jansen I assume, describes as a conjury against bandits in the road. From there to cross-roads, from cross-roads to night and thence to an identification of Tezcatlipoca as the principal actor here. Two questions, one specific, one general. 1. "Matl" - what does it mean, who is it? I've been to Joe Campbell's dictionary and get this as a stem (?) in things like matlatl - blue water, nets, multiples of ten. 1. Is "Matl" a manifestation of a particular god, Tezcatlipoca for example? That's two questions already. I'd better stop there for now. many thanks, Paul Anderson The fragment and attribution are as follows: http://www.dsp.unito.it/AHILA/publicaciones/cuaderno5/2_jansen.html (Ruiz de Alarcón Tratado II, cap. 1) Nomatca nehuatl niquetzalcoatl, nimatl, ca nehuatl niyaotl nimoquequeloatzin Ye axcan yez: niquinmaahuiltiz nohueltihuan Yo mismo, yo Quetzalcoatl, yo Matl, ya que yo soy la guerra, y me burlo de todo. Ahora así será: me burlaré de mis hermanas..." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AscheAsh2 at aol.com Tue Oct 10 08:55:28 2000 From: AscheAsh2 at aol.com (AscheAsh2 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 04:55:28 EDT Subject: matl Message-ID: I have what follows: matl (=matl?) measure, only applied by numbers up to 20. Castillo 1972:213. (matl=2,5027 m) cf. also Cline:1966:93. Hinz/Hartau/Heimann: Aztek.Zensus I, Molotla , add. Anderson, Beyond the Cod. 26. ell of land Molotla 12. span. braza, 6 feet, fathom (?= volume) For now that is all. Hear from you? Werner Asche From lemarc at attglobal.net Tue Oct 10 13:40:35 2000 From: lemarc at attglobal.net (Marc Eisinger) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:40:35 +0200 Subject: Out of print Message-ID: Dear friends, I'm looking for a copy of Joe Campbell's dictionnary. Does any one of you could sale a spare copy or tell me where I could have a chance to find one ? Thanks, Marc Eisinger -- War does not determine who is right - only who is left (Anonymous) From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu Tue Oct 10 13:32:14 2000 From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:32:14 -0400 Subject: matl Message-ID: Dear Werner and Paul, The second "matl" to which Werner refers means "hand." Evidently, the "i" got elided from the original "maitl." In some indigenous land documents that have both pictographic and alphabetic versions, you will find the measurement written in Nahuatl as so many by so many "matl." And in the pictographic version you will find a number of hand glyphs drawn on each side of the plot of land that correspond to the number of "matl," that is the length of the border. It seems that the indigenous measure was originally based on the distance between outstretched hands, which the Spanish equated to the "braza." I know this probably doesn't help you, Paul, unless the "matl" that you are studying is also the elided form of "maitl" and had some kind of metaphorical significance. Galen > I have what follows: > matl (=matl?) measure, only applied by numbers up to 20. > Castillo 1972:213. (matl=2,5027 m) > cf. also Cline:1966:93. > Hinz/Hartau/Heimann: Aztek.Zensus I, Molotla , add. > Anderson, Beyond the Cod. 26. > ell of land Molotla 12. > span. braza, 6 feet, fathom (?= volume) > For now that is all. > Hear from you? > Werner Asche From indus56 at telusplanet.net Tue Oct 10 16:19:08 2000 From: indus56 at telusplanet.net (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:19:08 -0600 Subject: matl Message-ID: Dear Galen, thanks so much for the clear exposition. It leads me to wonder if Matl might be some guise of "distance" as in the Lord of Near and Far. Very helpful, very intriguing. Do you know off hand (as it were) the plural for "matl" as armspan? cheers, Paul Anderson Galen Brokaw wrote: > Dear Werner and Paul, > The second "matl" to which Werner refers means "hand." Evidently, the "i" got > elided from the original "maitl." In some indigenous land documents that have > both pictographic and alphabetic versions, you will find the measurement > written in Nahuatl as so many by so many "matl." And in the pictographic > version you will find a number of hand glyphs drawn on each side of the plot of > land that correspond to the number of "matl," that is the length of the border. > It seems that the indigenous measure was originally based on the distance > between outstretched hands, which the Spanish equated to the "braza." > I know this probably doesn't help you, Paul, unless the "matl" that you are > studying is also the elided form of "maitl" and had some kind of metaphorical > significance. > Galen > > > I have what follows: > > matl (=matl?) measure, only applied by numbers up to 20. > > Castillo 1972:213. (matl=2,5027 m) > > cf. also Cline:1966:93. > > Hinz/Hartau/Heimann: Aztek.Zensus I, Molotla , add. > > Anderson, Beyond the Cod. 26. > > ell of land Molotla 12. > > span. braza, 6 feet, fathom (?= volume) > > For now that is all. > > Hear from you? > > Werner Asche From mdmorris at indiana.edu Tue Oct 10 16:16:55 2000 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:16:55 -0500 Subject: Out of print In-Reply-To: <39E31C50.72F6314E@attglobal.net> Message-ID: I believe both Campbell's dictionary and Porrua's edition of Molina are out of print. Would popular demand from the interested academic community (us) be just cause for a publisher to reprint these works? Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Oct 10 17:31:52 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:31:52 -0600 Subject: Out of print In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:16 AM 10/10/00 -0500, you wrote: >I believe both Campbell's dictionary and Porrua's edition of Molina are >out of print. Would popular demand from the interested academic community >(us) be just cause for a publisher to reprint these works? The Porrua - Molina is very much in print. I just checked a couple of weeks ago. Porrua advertises it on its web site. John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/provost/ From scalderon at ref.pemex.com Tue Oct 10 19:13:56 2000 From: scalderon at ref.pemex.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:13:56 -0500 Subject: Out of print Message-ID: At 11:16 AM 10/10/00 -0500, you wrote: >I believe both Campbell's dictionary and Porrua's edition of Molina are >out of print. Would popular demand from the interested academic community >(us) be just cause for a publisher to reprint these works? The Porrua - Molina is very much in print. I just checked a couple of weeks ago. Porrua advertises it on its web site. There is a link to this book in my nahuatl page http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/nahuatl.html I've also added some books in my archeology page: http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/arqueolog.html Salvador Calderón John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/provost/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scalderon at spin.com.mx Tue Oct 10 19:36:49 2000 From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:36:49 -0500 Subject: Linguistic rights Message-ID: You can find Campbell's book through a link in my page http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/nahuatl.html I've also added some books that might interest you at my archeology page: http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/arqueolog.html Salvador Calderón At 11:16 AM 10/10/00 -0500, you wrote: >I believe both Campbell's dictionary and Porrua's edition of Molina are >out of print. Would popular demand from the interested academic community >(us) be just cause for a publisher to reprint these works? The Porrua - Molina is very much in print. I just checked a couple of weeks ago. Porrua advertises it on its web site. John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/provost/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at nantucket.net Tue Oct 10 11:49:21 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 07:49:21 -0400 Subject: matl Message-ID: The most authoritative study of Ruiz de Alarcon's work is the Andrews and Hassig translation and annotation published by the University of Oklahoma Press. A&H claim that the Matl in question is a variant form of ma:itl 'hand/arm' (which is cognate, I suppose, with the unit of measure cited in the following message). A&H say that in the context of this particular charm, it is one of the appellations of Quetzalcoatl. They don't give any further interpretation. When there isn't much context, there is a lot of wisdom to avoiding speculation. ---------- >From: AscheAsh2 at aol.com >To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >Subject: Re: matl >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 4:55 AM > > I have what follows: > matl (=matl?) measure, only applied by numbers up to 20. > Castillo 1972:213. (matl=2,5027 m) > cf. also Cline:1966:93. > Hinz/Hartau/Heimann: Aztek.Zensus I, Molotla , add. > Anderson, Beyond the Cod. 26. > ell of land Molotla 12. > span. braza, 6 feet, fathom (?= volume) > For now that is all. > Hear from you? > Werner Asche > From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue Oct 10 22:24:31 2000 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:24:31 -0600 Subject: Out of print Message-ID: I've been using the Digibis/Fundación Histórica Tavera facsimilar edition of Molina on CD-ROM and can recommend it highly. Besides Molina it has Carochi, Arenas, Avila, Galdo Guzman, Guerra, Olmos, Pérez, Rincón, Sandoval, Tapia Zenteno, Vetancourt and other authors (even the "Códice Franciscano"!), all in digital facsimil from microfilm, not extremely sharp but easily readable. Ascensión Hernández de León-Portilla compiles the collection and wrote the introductory study. The interface works very well and facsimiles can be printed out with a click ot a mouse. See publisher's web page at http://www.digibis.com/. Saludos, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdmorris at indiana.edu Tue Oct 10 22:34:50 2000 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:34:50 -0500 Subject: matl In-Reply-To: <39E31A5E.88B162CB@lafayette.edu> Message-ID: Whether the land unit "matl" derived from "maitl" Galen cites has connection with the "matl" of matlactli (ten) and if either of those relate to the green-blue "matl" is unclear to me. However, if folks would like I can run the question past Luis Reyes on Saturday and pass on my notes. I am always more than satisfied with his explanations, and perhaps others would also find them so. We went over Xihuitl last Saturday, for example, and he gave a very succinct explanation of its semantic field, including a pretty good reason why comets are seen as bad omens. best, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From mdmorris at indiana.edu Tue Oct 10 22:45:43 2000 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:45:43 -0500 Subject: Out of print In-Reply-To: <001101c032ef$753bcdc0$0c01148f@ref.pemex.com> Message-ID: Just to keep things clear, unless Porrua has re-issued the Molina dictionary since July it is out of print. NeitherPorrua's main store inCalle Argentina nor even the Libreria Madero have copies. I confess I haven't tried buying it on-line, nor searched every bookstore in the D.F., however the latest printing from Porrua is sold out. best, Mark MOrris On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, [iso-8859-1] Salvador Calder�n wrote: > At 11:16 AM 10/10/00 -0500, you wrote: > > > > >I believe both Campbell's dictionary and Porrua's edition of Molina are > > >out of print. Would popular demand from the interested academic community > > >(us) be just cause for a publisher to reprint these works? > > > > > > The Porrua - Molina is very much in print. I just checked a couple of > > weeks ago. Porrua advertises it on its web site. > > There is a link to this book in my nahuatl page > > http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/nahuatl.html > > I've also added some books in my archeology page: > > http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/arqueolog.html > > Salvador Calder�n > > > > > > > > John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu > > Associate Provost 406-243-4722 > > The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 > > http://www.umt.edu/provost/ > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From scalderon at spin.com.mx Tue Oct 10 23:18:28 2000 From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:18:28 -0500 Subject: XII Feria del libro INAH Message-ID: XII Feria del Libro de Antropología e Historia (FLAH) Cada año, desde 1989, el Museo Nacional de Antropología alberga en el mes de octubre a la Feria del Libro de Antropología e Historia (FLAH), que es el evento editorial más importante de su tipo en México y América Latina. En la FLAH participan las principales instituciones de investigación y educación, así como las editoriales mexicanas y extranjeras cuya producción se centra en temas de antropología, historia, arqueología, etnología, lingüística y en general en las ciencias sociales. A lo largo de estos años, el público de la FLAH se ha conformado entre los investigadores, académicos, estudiantes y especialistas en los temas de su competencia, quienes en cada emisión acuden al Museo Nacional de Antropología para conocer y adquirir las novedades editoriales en las áreas de su interés. Al mismo tiempo, la FLAH se ha esforzado por ofrecer al público especialista un nutrido programa de actividades académicas de alto nivel, las cuales atraen a una gran cantidad de asistentes que también visitan el área de exhibición y venta de publicaciones. Un ejemplo de estas actividades es el V Simposio Román Piña Chan, que se realizará del 16 al 20 de octubre en el marco de la FLAH y reunirá a reconocidos escritores y arqueólogos, quienes de manera conjunta reflexionarán en torno al valor e importancia de la conservación de los vestigios arqueológicos en México. Asimismo, cabe enfatizar los buenos resultados obtenidos en el Día de Académicos, cuando los editores ofrecen descuentos especiales a los bibliotecarios, académicos, investigadores y estudiantes que acuden cada lunes de feria y aprovechan las promociones. En esta ocasión el Día de Académicos tendrá lugar el lunes 16 de octubre. Tradicionalmente la feria cuenta con un buen número de actividades recreativas, entre las que destacan los talleres para niños que tienen como fin acercarlos a la lectura y los libros de historia y de las disciplinas antropológicas. Por todo ello, la FLAH es el espacio más adecuado para la difusión de las obras que abordan los temas señalados, ya que reúne al público adecuado y permite a los editores entrar en contacto con colegas y especialistas de México y otros países. Cómo participar en estas Ferias El Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia ofrece a las instituciones y editoriales la posibilidad de participar en ambas ferias o en una sola, según el interés de cada expositor. Se tiene contemplado ofrecer descuentos especiales para aquellos editores que deseen participar en ambas ferias. En las dos ferias se contará con la opción de autoservicio para que los editores que tengan un fondo de obras limitado en los temas de la FLAH, o que no puedan enviar a un representante, estén presentes a través de la renta de un librero, en cuyo caso el Comité Organizador se encargará de la comercialización y del reporte de los resultados, así como de recopilar información de la gente interesada en acercarse a las editoriales de manera directa. Si usted está interesado en participar y/o recibir información de estas ferias, por favor comuníquese con el Proyecto de Ferias de Libros a los teléfonos 52-07-45-59, 52-07-45-73, 52-07-45-84, fax 52-07-46-33 o a la dirección electrónica divulgacion.cdifus at inah.gob.mx From indus56 at telusplanet.net Wed Oct 11 00:25:43 2000 From: indus56 at telusplanet.net (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:25:43 -0600 Subject: matl Message-ID: Mark, I for one would be delighted to hear about the follow up on matl. best wishes, Paul Mark David Morris wrote: > Whether the land unit "matl" derived from "maitl" Galen cites has > connection with the "matl" of matlactli (ten) and if either of those > relate to the green-blue "matl" is unclear to me. However, if folks would > like I can run the question past Luis Reyes on Saturday and pass on my > notes. I am always more than satisfied with his explanations, and perhaps > others would also find them so. We went over Xihuitl last Saturday, for > example, and he gave a very succinct explanation of its semantic field, > including a pretty good reason why comets are seen as bad omens. > > best, > > Mark Morris > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more > grief. Eccl 1:18 > > To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To > regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we > are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not > sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 > > MDM, PhD Candidate > Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. > From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu Wed Oct 11 01:00:05 2000 From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:00:05 -0400 Subject: matl Message-ID: Paul, In the documents I have worked with it only appears as "matl," even when it is plural. This is probably because the unit of measurement was considered inanimate, and inanimate nouns did not change their form to indicate plurality. Galen Paul Anderson wrote: > Dear Galen, thanks so much for the clear exposition. It leads me to wonder if Matl > might be some guise of "distance" as in the Lord of Near and Far. Very helpful, > very intriguing. Do you know off hand (as it were) the plural for "matl" as > armspan? > cheers, Paul Anderson > > Galen Brokaw wrote: > > > Dear Werner and Paul, > > The second "matl" to which Werner refers means "hand." Evidently, the "i" got > > elided from the original "maitl." In some indigenous land documents that have > > both pictographic and alphabetic versions, you will find the measurement > > written in Nahuatl as so many by so many "matl." And in the pictographic > > version you will find a number of hand glyphs drawn on each side of the plot of > > land that correspond to the number of "matl," that is the length of the border. > > It seems that the indigenous measure was originally based on the distance > > between outstretched hands, which the Spanish equated to the "braza." > > I know this probably doesn't help you, Paul, unless the "matl" that you are > > studying is also the elided form of "maitl" and had some kind of metaphorical > > significance. > > Galen > > > > > I have what follows: > > > matl (=matl?) measure, only applied by numbers up to 20. > > > Castillo 1972:213. (matl=2,5027 m) > > > cf. also Cline:1966:93. > > > Hinz/Hartau/Heimann: Aztek.Zensus I, Molotla , add. > > > Anderson, Beyond the Cod. 26. > > > ell of land Molotla 12. > > > span. braza, 6 feet, fathom (?= volume) > > > For now that is all. > > > Hear from you? > > > Werner Asche From susana.moraleda at dragotto.com Thu Oct 12 14:39:08 2000 From: susana.moraleda at dragotto.com (Susana Moraleda) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:39:08 +0200 Subject: R: Aztec or Mixtec Glyphs Message-ID: I would be interested in receiving a publication list and the workbook for the Mixtec codices. What is the price? Thanks, Susana Moraleda Rome, Italy ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Monday, July 19, 1999 10:52 PM Subject: Re: Aztec or Mixtec Glyphs > Robert Comegys: > > a book by Mary Elizabeth Smith > and one by > Bruce Byland and John Pohl (co-authors) > will give you a bunch of them. > > Please provide your postal address, > and we will send you a publication list including > a workbook for the Mixtec codices. > > Lloyd Anderson > Ecological Linguistics > > From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Wed Oct 11 22:17:46 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:17:46 -0600 Subject: Klor de Alva Message-ID: I need help. I need a copy of Jorge Klor de Alba's translation of Sahagun's Coloquios. It was published in the journal, Alcheringa in 1980, vol. 4 num. 2, pp. 52-193. My local interlibrary loan has had problems getting it. If someone has a copy they could copy for me, I'd be deeply appreciative. Contact me off-line, don't hit the reply button. John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/provost/ From scalderon at ref.pemex.com Fri Oct 13 15:30:05 2000 From: scalderon at ref.pemex.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:30:05 -0500 Subject: Fw: Out of print Message-ID: OOps! There is a mistake in my archeology page´s URL. . The correct one is: http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/arqueolo.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Salvador Calderón To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:13 PM Subject: Out of print There is a link to this book in my nahuatl page http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/nahuatl.html I've also added some books in my archeology page: http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/arqueolog.html Salvador Calderón -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drothering at hotmail.com Fri Oct 13 17:38:33 2000 From: drothering at hotmail.com (Darryl Röthering) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 17:38:33 GMT Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche Message-ID: Could any of you scholars enlighten me on the proper spelling of this word, and more importantly, what its etymology is? BTW, I just tried it for the first time (canned, via Herdez, and at great difficulty on the importation!) and its quite nice. TIA, Darryl Rothering _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Fri Oct 13 18:57:23 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 12:57:23 -0600 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 05:38 PM 10/13/00 +0000, you wrote: >Could any of you scholars enlighten me on the proper spelling of this >word, and more importantly, what its etymology is? The Karttunen Dictionary has: cuitlacoch-in : an ear of maize infected with a fungus that turns the kernels dark gray and deforms them, edible and considered a delicacy, from cuitl(a)-tl - excrement [ and coch(i) - to sleep?] John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/provost/ From malinal at evhr.net Sat Oct 14 04:10:33 2000 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 05:10:33 +0100 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche Message-ID: >vendredi 13 octobre 2000 20:07 John F. Schwaller écrivait: > > >The Karttunen Dictionary has: >cuitlacoch-in : an ear of maize infected with a fungus that turns the >kernels dark gray and deforms them, edible and considered a delicacy, from >cuitl(a)-tl - excrement [ and coch(i) - to sleep?] > cuitlacochin seems to have two other meanings : 1. also called cuitlacochtototl, a bird, the curve-billed thrasher ‘Toxostoma curvirostreÂ’ (Dibble Anderson) Regenpfeifer (Seler 1927,106) . This bird announced rains. Dibble Anderson Florentine Codex Book XI p.51. 2. a staf which was ornemented with thrasherÂ’s feathers. This 'thrasher-staf' was used in dances to call rains. Dibble Anderson Florentine Codex Book II p. 75 (‘ycuitlacuchchoÂ’ = his thrasher (stave). I would be happy to know where the form : ‘cuitlacochehÂ’ occurs. Thankfully. Alexis From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Oct 14 14:33:36 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:33:36 -0400 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche Message-ID: >>The Karttunen Dictionary has: >>cuitlacoch-in : an ear of maize infected with a fungus that turns the >>kernels dark gray and deforms them, edible and considered a delicacy, from >>cuitl(a)-tl - excrement [ and coch(i) - to sleep?] Please note that the query in square brackets is not from the dictionary. I am sure that cuitla-coch-in is a compound, and according to Nahuatl morphology, the coch-in part is the head of the compound, while cuitla- is a modifier, telling one what sort of coch-in, it is. There is no way I know of that the verb cochi could become a noun stem coch-in, nor is there any obvious shared sense between the verb cochi 'to sleep' and the proposed head noun. Joe has a list of the -in nouns that occur in Nahuatl. Maybe he would be kind enough to tell us if besides cuitlacoch-in as a bird name there are other coch-in compounds. Fran From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Sat Oct 14 15:19:25 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:19:25 -0600 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche In-Reply-To: <200010141417.KAA10710@nantucket.net> Message-ID: At 10:33 AM 10/14/2000 -0400, you wrote: >>>cuitl(a)-tl - excrement [ and coch(i) - to sleep?] > > >Please note that the query in square brackets is not from the dictionary. >I am sure that cuitla-coch-in is a compound, and according to Nahuatl >morphology, the coch-in part is the head of the compound, while cuitla- is a >modifier, telling one what sort of coch-in, it is. There is no way I know >of that the verb cochi could become a noun stem coch-in, nor is there any >obvious shared sense between the verb cochi 'to sleep' and the proposed head >noun. Yes, indeed. I put my comment in brackets because it was a bit of whimsy on my part. Sorry for any confusion it might have caused Fritz From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Oct 14 17:22:02 2000 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 12:22:02 -0500 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche In-Reply-To: <200010141417.KAA10710@nantucket.net> Message-ID: The main sections are divided with ********** Concord on "cuitlacoch-" from the Florentine Codex: cuitlacoch** 1. inic motocayotia cuitlacochtototl: itech tlaantli in itlatol, in quitoa *cuitlacoch*, cuitlacoch, tarati, tarat, tatatati, tatatati, titiriti, tiriti:. it is named cuitlacochtototl, which is taken from its song, because it says cuitlacoch, cuitlacoch, tarati, tarat, tatatati, tatatati, titiriti, tiriti. (b.11 f.6 p.51). 2. inic motocayotia cuitlacochtototl: itech tlaantli in itlatol, in quitoa cuitlacoch, *cuitlacoch*, tarati, tarat, tatatati, tatatati, titiriti, tiriti:. it is named cuitlacochtototl, which is taken from its song, because it says cuitlacoch, cuitlacoch, tarati, tarat, tatatati, tatatati, titiriti, tiriti. (b.11 f.6 p.51). cuitlacochi** 3. auh in ye quizaz quiyahuitl, in ye tlamiz in ye itzonco: niman ye ic tlatoa in *cuitlacochi*,. and when the rains were already to pass, when they were already to end, when already they were at their close, thereupon the curve-billed thrasher sang; (b.2 f.1 p.45). 4. *cuitlacochi*: mazorca de maiz que nacen disformes.. smut ears of maize which appear malformed (b.11 f.27 p.281). cuitlacochihua** 5. *cuitlacochihua*,. smut forms. (b.11 f.27 p.281). cuitlacochihui** 6. *cuitlacochihui*. it becomes blotched (b.10 f.6 p.96b). 7. *cuitlacochihui*. it becomes blotched (b.10 f.6 p.109b). 8. *cuitlacochihui*. it becomes blotched (b.10 f.6 p.112a). 9. tlatzihui, moxochiamatlapallaza, moxochiamatlapaltepehua, tlilehua, *cuitlacochihui*,. they fade, shed petals, drop petals, darken, wither. (b.11 f.21 p.214). 10. *cuitlacochihui*.. it becomes smutted. (b.11 f.27 p.281). cuitlacochin** 11. *cuitlacochin*: anozo cuitlacochtototl,. curve-billed thrasher (b.11 f.6 p.51). cuitlacochio** 12. auh quin oncan maco: in inneoquichitol in apozonaltentetl, ihuan quetzalcoyolnacochtli, quetzalichayatl coxoli, hecacehuaztli: zacuantica tlatzinpacholli, xahuactopilli, toztlapilollo, *cuitlacochio*, in ipan hualotlatocaya, inic hualahcia in nican mexico.. and then [and] there they were given their symbols of conquest--the amber lip plugs, and the green, shell-shaped ear pendants; the netted maguey fiber capes; the crested guan feather fans covered with troupial feathers at the bottom; the black staves with tassels of curve-billed thrasher feathers, with which they took the road to arrive here in mexico. (b.9 f.2 p.22). cuitlacochti** 13. *cuitlacochti* in elotl, in cintli,. the green maize ear, the ripened maize ear become smutted. (b.11 f.27 p.281). cuitlacochtic** 14. *cuitlacochtic*. blotched (b.10 f.6 p.96b). 15. *cuitlacochtic*. blotched (b.10 f.6 p.106b). 16. *cuitlacochtic*. blotched (b.10 f.6 p.109b). cuitlacochtototl** 17. cuitlacochin: anozo *cuitlacochtototl*,. curve-billed thrasher (b.11 f.6 p.51). 18. inic motocayotia *cuitlacochtototl*: itech tlaantli in itlatol, in quitoa cuitlacoch, cuitlacoch, tarati, tarat, tatatati, tatatati, titiriti, tiriti:. it is named cuitlacochtototl, which is taken from its song, because it says cuitlacoch, cuitlacoch, tarati, tarat, tatatati, tatatati, titiriti, tiriti. (b.11 f.6 p.51). icuitlacochcho** 19. no motocayotia *icuitlacochcho*, in tzanatopilli.. the grackle-staves were also called their thrasher[-staves]. (b.2 f.3 p.75). **************************** Summary of occurrences in Molina and the Florentine Codex: cuitlacochtli. a�ublado trigo, mayz ocosa semejante (71m1); mayz otrigo a�ublado (71m2). cuitlacochin. ma�orca de mayz da�ada o degenerada (71m1); mazorca de mayz degenerada y diferente delas otras (71m2); curve-billed thrasher (FC). cuitlacoch. ___ (FC). cuitlacochi. ___ (FC). cuitlacochihua. ___ (FC). cuitlacochihui. ___ (FC); it becomes blotched (FC). cuitlacochio. ___ (FC). cuitlacochti. ___ (FC). cuitlacochtic. blotched (FC). cuitlacochtototl. ___ (FC); curve-billed thrasher (FC). ********************** Nouns with the -in absolutive suffix: a:xin axin ointment capolin capolin cherry chacalin chacalin shrimp chapolin chapolin grasshopper chiquimolin chiquimolin goldfinch, talebearer chopilin chopilin cricket cilin cilin snail ci:tlalin citlalin star cohuixin cohuixin lizard cuetzpalin cuetzpalin lizard cui:xin cuixin kite, kind of bird hui:tzilin huitzilin hummingbird ma:tla:lin matlalin dark green metolin metolin moth mexixin mexixin common-cress michin michin fish ocuilin ocuilin worm pipiyolin pipiyolin wild bee quimichin quimichin mouse tamazolin tamazolin toad tapayaxin tapayaxin lizard temolin temolin beetle to:lin tolin reed tomin tomin coin ! to:tolin totolin hen, turkey xohuilin xohuilin kind of fish xomalin xomalin feather grass za:yo:lin zayolin fly zo:lin zolin quail zo:to:lin zotolin palm *************************** The *only* occurrences of '-cochin-' in Molina and the FC: cochina, ni-. ___ (FC). cochini. dormilon (55m, 71m1, 71m2); she is accustomed to sleeping (FC); sleeper, one who sleeps (FC); they are accustomed to sleeping (FC). cochini, iitztoc- . dormidor tal (55m, 71m1). miccacochini. dormidor tal (55m, 71m1); el que duerme los ojos abiertos (71m2). tequicochini. dormilon (71m2). cuitlacochin. ma�orca de mayz da�ada o degenerada (71m1); mazorca de mayz degenerada y diferente delas otras (71m2); curve-billed thrasher (FC). From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Oct 14 18:44:24 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 14:44:24 -0400 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche Message-ID: > tomin tomin coin ! Note that in the Spanish loanword tomin, the -in is not an absolutive suffix. It does not drop off in possessed forms such as notomin 'my coin(s)'. Fran From malinal at evhr.net Sat Oct 14 16:34:25 2000 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 17:34:25 +0100 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche Message-ID: ----------------------------------------------------- -----Message d'origine----- De : Frances Karttunen À : nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Date : samedi 14 octobre 2000 15:57 Objet : Re: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche >I am sure that cuitla-coch-in is a compound, and according to Nahuatl >morphology, the coch-in part is the head of the compound, while cuitla- is a >modifier, telling one what sort of coch-in, it is. There is no way I know >of that the verb cochi could become a noun stem coch-in, nor is there any >obvious shared sense between the verb cochi 'to sleep' and the proposed head >noun. > >Joe has a list of the -in nouns that occur in Nahuatl. Maybe he would be >kind enough to tell us if besides cuitlacoch-in as a bird name there are >other coch-in compounds. > it is an other bird whoose name could perhaps be related to cuitla-coch-in ?) : cocho or coch-o :tl, the white-fronted parrot Amazona abifrons. Alexis. From Tezozomok at aol.com Sun Oct 15 02:09:10 2000 From: Tezozomok at aol.com (Tezozomok at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 22:09:10 EDT Subject: matl Message-ID: Dearest Mark, I am interested in know about the the discussion of Xihuitl. Az From campbel at indiana.edu Sun Oct 15 03:15:26 2000 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 22:15:26 -0500 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche In-Reply-To: <000601c035fc$a7802dc0$d6c15ed4@poste.evhr.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, alexis wimmer wrote: > > it is an other bird whoose name could perhaps be related to cuitla-coch-in > ?) : cocho or coch-o :tl, the white-fronted parrot Amazona abifrons. > > Alexis. > > Alexis, In order for a morphological identity to be credible, of course, we need a traceable form relationship. But if we don't have a semantic path too, we're in the same situation as with the well-known "-ling" in English. Nobody is willing to argue for a proportional relationship here: boy : boyling :: prince : princeling Of course, sometimes the semantic paths are not obvious -- we are not in the position to see things from inside the mind of the Nahuatl speaker -- and that includes his knowledge of the culture and the world. So when the path is not obvious, someone needs to be our pathfinder -- supply an interpretation. One not very good example is: ni-cualani I get angry nic-cuacualatza I boil it (totally unrelated to boyling example above) Everyone agrees that 'cuacualatza' is an example of a set of regularly derived reduplicated transitive verbs from intransitive ones ending in -ni (usually). But is the semantic interpretation credible? "I continually/repeatedly make it angry" = "I boil it"? In this case, we don't have to stretch our imagination at all -- boiling water does seem angry (and we know that the opposite extension of meaning is used in the case of 'pozoni' "it boils" and 'ni-yollo-popozoca' "I get angry [I heart-boil]"). How do we relate the parrot and the smut? }8-) Best regards, Joe cocho** 1. *cocho*:. white-fronted parrot (b.11 f.3 p.23). 2. quinenehuili in toznene, ihuan in *cocho*:. it resembles the young yellow-headed parrot and the white-fronted parrot. (b.11 f.3 p.23). cochoihhuitl** 3. ihuan in quilhuia quetzaliacatl, in zan tepitoton, in chilchotic, ihuan in tzinitzcan, in teoquechol: in axcan mitoa tlauhquechol, ihuan in xiuhtototl, in ayopal, in toztli, in tozcuicuil, in zacuan, in *cochoihhuitl*, in chamolin, in cuitlatexotli, in cozohtli, in xiuhapalli. etc.. and those they called down feathers, the very small ones, the chili-green ones and the crest feathers of the quetzal; and feathers of the red spoonbill [teoquechol], which is now called tlauhquechol; and the blue cotinga, the amethyst-colored ones, the yellow parrot, the multicolored parrot, the trupial, the red and yellow parrot, the scarlet parrot, the blue parrot, the dove; and aquamarine feathers, etc. (b.4 f.5 p.46). 4. ahzo coztlapalli in motzauchuatza, anozo aztatl, anozo chamolin, anozo cuitlatexotli, anozo *cochoihhuitl*, anozo itla ihhuitl zan tlapalli, tlatlapalpalli:. perhaps yellow dyed ones were glue-hardened, or heron, or scarlet ones, or blue parrot, or green parrot feathers, or some feathers dyed in one color, dyed in many. (b.9 f.7 p.94). 5. auh in tzinitzcan, yehuatl quimopepechtia in *cochoihhuitl*:. and for trogonorus, they used green parrot feathers as a basis. (b.9 f.7 p.94). cochome** 6. totocalli, calpixque oncan quinpiaya, in ixquich nepapan tototl: cuacuauhti, tlauhquechol, zacuan, tozneneme, *cochome*, alome, coxoliti:. totocalli: there majordomos kept all the various birds---eagles, red spoonbills, trupials, yellow parrots, parakeets, large parrots, pheasants. (b.8 f.3 p.45). cochotl** 7. ihuan ompa nemi, in cualli ihhuitl, in tlazotli, in zacuan, in tlauhquechol, in teoquechol, in xiuhtototl, in *cochotl*, in quilito: no ompa nemi in quetzaltototl:. and there were the beautiful feathers, the precious feathers, [the feathers of] the troupial, the red spoonbill, the blue cotinga, the white-fronted parrot, the mexican parrotlets; the resplendent trogonorus was also there. (b.10 f.12 p.187). tencochotic** 8. tencoztic, tencoltic, *tencochotic*, cuachichiquiltic,. it has a yellow, curved bill, like that of the white-fronted parrot; the head is crested. (b.11 f.3 p.22). From dakin at servidor.unam.mx Sun Oct 15 17:02:14 2000 From: dakin at servidor.unam.mx (Karen Dakin) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 12:02:14 -0500 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche In-Reply-To: <001001c03594$bd4c4ca0$d6c15ed4@poste.evhr.net> Message-ID: I've always thought that the -coch- might be related to the -coch- in tlancochtli, and has a meaning similar to 'molar', since the fungus on the grains of cord looks very much likes black molars. The ko- part might be related to the ke(') in 'teeth', since I think Uto-Aztecan *ke- (the e is a barred 'i') at times is also reflected as a ko- in Nahuatl (other 'teeth' words are ke'tzoma 'to bite' and kikisi 'to whistle'). From malinal at evhr.net Mon Oct 16 03:03:54 2000 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 04:03:54 +0100 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche Message-ID: -----Message d'origine----- De : r. joe campbell À : nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Date : dimanche 15 octobre 2000 04:36 Objet : Re: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche > > >On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, alexis wimmer wrote: >> >> it is an other bird whoose name could perhaps be related to cuitla-coch-in >> ?) : cocho or coch-o :tl, the white-fronted parrot Amazona abifrons. >> >> Alexis. >> >> > > >Alexis, > In order for a morphological identity to be credible, of course, we >need a traceable form relationship. But if we don't have a semantic path >too, we're in the same situation as with the well-known "-ling" in >English. Nobody is willing to argue for a proportional relationship here: > > boy : boyling :: prince : princeling > > Of course, sometimes the semantic paths are not obvious -- we are not >in the position to see things from inside the mind of the Nahuatl speaker >-- and that includes his knowledge of the culture and the world. So when >the path is not obvious, someone needs to be our pathfinder -- supply an >interpretation. One not very good example is: > > ni-cualani I get angry > > nic-cuacualatza I boil it (totally unrelated to boyling example above) > >Everyone agrees that 'cuacualatza' is an example of a set of regularly >derived reduplicated transitive verbs from intransitive ones ending in -ni >(usually). But is the semantic interpretation credible? "I >continually/repeatedly make it angry" = "I boil it"? In this case, we >don't have to stretch our imagination at all -- boiling water does seem >angry (and we know that the opposite extension of meaning is used in the >case of 'pozoni' "it boils" and 'ni-yollo-popozoca' "I get angry [I >heart-boil]"). > > How do we relate the parrot and the smut? }8-) > >Best regards, > >Joe > Joe indeed I donÂ’t see any relationship between parrot and smut (boy and boyling!) and the one who wrot : > inic motocayotia cuitlacochtototl: itech tlaantli in itlatol, > in quitoa *cuitlacoch*, cuitlacoch, tarati, tarat, tatatati, > tatatati, titiriti, tiriti:. > it is named cuitlacochtototl, which is taken from its > song, because it says cuitlacoch, cuitlacoch, tarati, tarat, > tatatati, tatatati, titiriti, tiriti. (b.11 f.6 p.51). did also. This implies that the word *cuitlacochin* refers to two homonyms : the name for smut and the name of a bird. Between both apears a merely accidental relationship, an onomatopoeia.. The only true problem is then the etymology of *cuitlacochin*, mazorca de mayz danada o degenerada Nevertheless the ending *-in* does me think to a name of a little animal, a bird for instance In the list you gave only 6/29 words doesnÂ’t refers to (little) animals : capolin capolin cherry ma:tla:lin matlalin dark green mexixin mexixin common-cress to:lin tolin reed xomalin xomalin feather grass zo:to:lin zotolin palm sincerely, Alexis From sales at visibilityfx.com Mon Oct 16 14:33:11 2000 From: sales at visibilityfx.com (Home Buyers Kit) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 08:33:11 -0600 Subject: Free Archaeology Screensaver Message-ID: Archaeologia(www.archaeologia.com), the Premiere Site for Antiquarian, Rare and Out-of-Print Scholarly Books on Archaeology introduces the Archaeology Screensaver. This quick loading screensaver features eleven stunning pictures of achaeological ruins from around the world. This is the first and only Archaeology screensaver and its yours, free! Simply go to our homepage and click on the screensaver link. As a kick off to its new Interactive web site Archaeologia (www.archaeologia.com) welcomes you to download the screensaver and while your at our site take a look around. You can browse our enormous collection of books and prints books covering the areas of Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greece & Rome, the Ancient Near East, and the Americas. This is a targeted mailing of Archaeologia Books and Prints(www.archaeologia.com). If you have received this mailing in error or would like to be removed from the mailing list please send an email to remove at archaeologia.com. Archaeologia Books and Prints 707 Carlston Avenue Oakland, California 94610 United States of America 510-832-1405 From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Mon Oct 16 16:46:27 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 10:46:27 -0600 Subject: Posting to the list Message-ID: Dear subscribers, I have taken some action to prevent the recurrence of the commercial posting, nevertheless, given the current organization of the list these things will happen. It is one of the costs of our freedom. This is not a moderated list. Anyone can post to it, although I am under the impression that it is a closed list insofar as posting is concerned. That means that only subscribers can post. The alternative is to create a moderated list where I, or someone who relieves me, would have to approve each and every posting. I have not sought that privilege for the list, I do not presume. For me one of the pleasures of having founded and "owned" the list is the dynamic of the on-lline conversation. J. F. Schwaller List Owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/provost/ From manyfeathers at hotmail.com Mon Oct 16 17:29:32 2000 From: manyfeathers at hotmail.com (Joe Rogers) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 10:29:32 PDT Subject: Posting to the list Message-ID: I thank you for your attention re: Archeologia.com By no means am I suggesting that you (or someone in your department) should be pre-approving each and every post. I'm not crazy. Nor would I wish to curtail the freedom of speech of Archeologia.com--spcifically it's right to promote itself. However, I would point out that commercial activity should occur in the marketplace, of which I assume the nahuatl list is not a part. My only concern is that a merchant is trying to extend the market into an area specically set aside for (and by mutual agreement maintained as) an area in which scholarly discussion can occur. This company has violated that agreement. Their right to free speech has nothing with it. Freedom by its nature entails responsibility, both individual and institutional. Archeologia.com has used their freedom of speech irresponsibly. Anyhow, I have a feeling we agree with each other on the issue, more or less. I again thank you for your attention in this matter. The prevalence of commercialism in our society today is vast, and at least some areas of the internet (like my e-mail box) should be free of tertiary sector capitalism. Of course, I'm using free web-based e-mail, so to my chagrin, the end of this post you will see none other than a commercial. My apologies. Thank-you for all the work you've done in setting up and maintaining this list. I appreciate how much extra time & energy this must take. And I do enjoy the fruits of your labor. Joe Rogers _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From Huaxyacac at aol.com Mon Oct 16 19:11:10 2000 From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 15:11:10 EDT Subject: Posting to the list Message-ID: Joe, Fritz, et al., I recognize that this isn't really an appropriate thread for the list, so I'll happily let it die, but I do object a bit to the dichotomy between "marketplace" and "scholarly discussion." As the author of a website that attempts to provide the latter while also generating some income, I don't really think that we should draw a hard and fast line between the two. Do they need to be mutually exclusive? In this case, the relevance of the Archeologia.com missive to the subject matter of this list is questionable, but you can certainly make a good-faith argument in its favor. If we apply a strict commercial activity ban, does that mean that someone selling a Nahuatl workbook should not be allowed to advertise it here? I would hope not. Instead, I would argue that posts should be judged on their relevance to the subject of Nahuatl language and culture. Would it have been more acceptable if Archeologia.com had sent a more targeted letter, pointing out that their current catalog lists more than 500 books on the ancient Americas, including a couple on Nahuatl? What about if one individual wanted to sell their own library of of works on Nahuatl? I'm not suggesting that rampant commercialization of this list is something to be desired or even tolerated. But I personally would rather err on the generous side. Alec Christensen About Anthropology Guide http://anthropology.about.com From kirstey at theplay.com Mon Oct 16 08:23:23 2000 From: kirstey at theplay.com (kirstey at theplay.com) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 03:23:23 EST Subject: Your Free Casino Chips Message-ID: Congratulations! You have been selected by our promotions team to recieve Free Casino Chips at our brand new Big Players Casino. All you have to do is Play! Follow the link below. http://209.1.224.12/a82737/ or click here From robc at csufresno.edu Mon Oct 16 21:39:12 2000 From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert G. Comegys) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:39:12 -0700 Subject: Posting to the list Message-ID: Dear Dr. Schwaller and Friends, I just now took a quick look at some of the extensive list of books for sale by archaeologia.com It looked good to me, and there was at least one I may buy today. Dr. Schwaller: I know it can be irritating to have someone pitch their wares on your time, BUT I have long ago learned to expect an advertisement of two in the back of professional journals, or a table with books or services for sale at the back of the room at professional gatherings. AND this might be an opportunity for you and all of us. I don't know what your list costs you or how you pay the associated expenses. Why not get a small fee for the list or a percentage off for the members of the list from archaeologia.com? And maybe see if we could get a discount from Porrua in Mexico City, or others as well. Certainly a collective opinion from the group could be appropriate; and certainly the last word is yours, Dr. Schwaller Regards to all, John Comegys John F. Schwaller wrote: > > Dear subscribers, > > I have taken some action to prevent the recurrence of the commercial > posting, nevertheless, given the current organization of the list these > things will happen. It is one of the costs of our freedom. This is not a > moderated list. Anyone can post to it, although I am under the impression > that it is a closed list insofar as posting is concerned. That means that > only subscribers can post. The alternative is to create a moderated list > where I, or someone who relieves me, would have to approve each and every > posting. I have not sought that privilege for the list, I do not > presume. For me one of the pleasures of having founded and "owned" the > list is the dynamic of the on-lline conversation. > > J. F. Schwaller > List Owner > > John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu > Associate Provost 406-243-4722 > The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 > http://www.umt.edu/provost/ From manyfeathers at hotmail.com Tue Oct 17 03:00:54 2000 From: manyfeathers at hotmail.com (Joe Rogers) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:00:54 PDT Subject: Posting to the list Message-ID: My apologies to all. I did not intend to send my reply to the entire list. I should have looked more closely at the sender before pressing "reply". While this is an interesting thread, it probably does not belong on the list. As as I said, it was an accident, and I do apologize. Nahautl, anyone? Joe _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From mhopkins at fas.harvard.edu Wed Oct 18 21:31:33 2000 From: mhopkins at fas.harvard.edu (Mary Hopkins) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 17:31:33 -0400 Subject: Nahuatlan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Can I ask the list for a piece of advice? I work in a library catalog department. Just got a piece with some Nicaraguan Nahuatl-Spanish dialect in it. Went to check the language code (a piece of the record not visible to users on most systems) and it informed me that the language was "Nahuatlan." This seems like a logical enough way of covering Nahua, Nahuatl, etc., but I don't think I'd seen it before. Furthermore it has replaced, rather than supplemented, the code that used to just say "Nahuatl." Perhaps I am inclined to be overly suspicious; I ought to be grateful that they are no longer calling it "Aztec." Do list members have any comments? Many thanks. MH From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Thu Oct 19 14:22:03 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 08:22:03 -0600 Subject: Nahuatlan? Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 20:11:56 -0600 (MDT) >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 21:12:09 -0500 >To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >From: "Ricardo J. Salvador" >Subject: Re: Nahuatlan? > >At 5:31 PM -0400 10/18/00, Mary Hopkins wrote: > > >Went to check the language code (a piece of the record not visible > >to users on most systems) and it informed me that the language was > >"Nahuatlan." This seems like a logical enough way of covering Nahua, > >Nahuatl, etc., but I don't think I'd seen it before. Furthermore it has > >replaced, rather than supplemented, the code that used to just say > >"Nahuatl." > >Mary, see: > > >(n=E4=B4wt=B4=B4ln) (KEY), group of languages of the Uto-Aztecan branch of > >the Aztec-Tanoan linguistic stock of North and Central America. A > >Nahuatlan language of great historical importance is Nahuatl, or > >Aztec. A descendant of the now extinct Aztec, the language of the > >ancient Aztec empire, Nahuatl is spoken today by approximately 1.5 > >million people, mainly in Mexico. Aztec is thought to have reached 5 > >million people in an area extending from Mexico to Panama. The > >Nahuatlan group also includes a number of other living languages, > >such as Pipil and Pochutla, and extinct tongues, among them Toltec, > >Chichimec, and Nahuatlato. See Native American languages. > >Reference: Columbia Encyclopedia (6th Ed.) >http://www.bartleby.com/65/na/Nahuatla.html >-- > >Ricardo J. Salvador E-mail: mailto:salvador at iastate.edu >1126 Agronomy Hall Voice: 515.294.9595 >Iowa State University Fax: 515.294.8146 >Ames IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Oct 20 00:05:47 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:05:47 -0400 Subject: Nahuatlan? Message-ID: >> >(n=E4=B4wt=B4=B4ln) (KEY), group of languages of the Uto-Aztecan branch of >> >the Aztec-Tanoan linguistic stock of North and Central America. A >> >Nahuatlan language of great historical importance is Nahuatl, or >> >Aztec. A descendant of the now extinct Aztec, the language of the >> >ancient Aztec empire, Nahuatl is spoken today by approximately 1.5 >> >million people, mainly in Mexico. Aztec is thought to have reached 5 >> >million people in an area extending from Mexico to Panama. The >> >Nahuatlan group also includes a number of other living languages, >> >such as Pipil and Pochutla, and extinct tongues, among them Toltec, >> >Chichimec, and Nahuatlato. See Native American languages. I find this peculiar. I don't think anyone can say for sure what language family Toltec belonged to. As for Chichimec, when applied to a language, it refers to a member of the Oto-Pamean subgroup of the Otomanguean family. The word "Nahuatlato," generally refers to an interpreter, specifically one who speaks Nahuatl and some other language, but it was sometimes used by Nahuatl speakers to refer to interpreters between ANY two languages. I think what was intended was "Nahuatlatolli" which is the Nahuatl term for 'clear, intelligible speech.' That's a description rather than a name, but then again, so are many words used as language names. The most up-to-date and authoritative reference book available is Lyle Campbell's American Indian Languages: The Historical Linguistics of Native America. Oxford University Press, 1997. According to Campbell's language classification, the Nahuatlan (also called Nahuan or Aztecan) subgroup of the Uto-Aztecan language family contains the following languages: Pochutec (extinct since early in the 20th century), Pipil, and the various regional dialects of Nahuatl. Campbell writes: "The Aztec-Tanoan hypothesis, which attempts to link Uto-Aztecan and Kiowa-Tanoan in a remote genetic relationship, has been widely accepted and is frequently repeated in the literature as though it were unproblematical, although a number of specialists have persistently expressed their doubts." (p. 269) After reviewing the evidence, he concludes, "My general conclusion concerning the Aztec-Tanoan hypothesis is that the evidence presented in its favor so far falls far short of what would be necessary to warrant a positive feeling toward the hypothesis." (p. 273) Fran From War14655 at aol.com Fri Oct 20 13:56:13 2000 From: War14655 at aol.com (War14655 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 09:56:13 EDT Subject: Nahuatlan? Message-ID: look at u, labeling the so-called ancient "aztec" language or so-called classical language as "extinct." I think it's high-time that you rid yourself of that practice. Even Joe Campbell admonishes that, "Scholars of Nahuatl are accustomed to talk about 'classical Nahuatl' and what is spoken today; yet the people who speak Nahuatl today are the desecndants of the people who spoke it five centuries ago. The practice of isolating classical Nahuatl is rather like calling the English of Shakespeare's time "Classical English" while referring to English as it is spoken today in various places around the world as "the modern dialects." It is not technically wrong, but if we don't do it for English, we should be wary of doing so for Nahuatl"(Campbell and Karttunen p2). If this is a listserve of so-called scholars and a lowly undergrad student, like me, can see the error in this kind of mislabeling, then surely u guys see it too... From sswanson at asu.edu Fri Oct 20 15:20:47 2000 From: sswanson at asu.edu (Steve Swanson) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 08:20:47 -0700 Subject: Nahuatlan? Message-ID: Dear undergraduate student, I think that a careful review of the postings regarding "nahuatlan" will show that the characterizations and labels to which you refer were being cited from a library's index system and its entry on Nahuatl related languages. In that original email, it was pointed out that the labels used for those languages were an improvement over just calling them all "Aztec" languages, but the query was seeking advice from Nahuatl scholars and interested parties on this list as to the appropriateness of "Nahuatlan". As your citation of Campbell and Karttunen indicate, we need to be conscious of our labels, and the spirit in which you write is appreciated. However, since it appears that nobody in this thread, who you label "so-called scholars" from your position of anonymity, actually used those labels, your post seems somewhat misdirected. Addressing the spirit of your post, I agree that there are some negative implications for the use of the term "classic" or "classical" Nahuatl, as there are for a term like "classic" or "classical" Greek. My reading of these terms is that the "climax" of the civilization that used the language has passed, and the language spoken during that cultural "climax" is better, or more pure, or more relevant than modern forms of the language. Does anyone on this list know how native speakers of Greek or Nahuatl (or any other language descended from a "classical" language) perceive or refer to older forms of their language? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 6:56 AM Subject: Re: Nahuatlan? look at u, labeling the so-called ancient "aztec" language or so-called classical language as "extinct." I think it's high-time that you rid yourself of that practice. Even Joe Campbell admonishes that, "Scholars of Nahuatl are accustomed to talk about 'classical Nahuatl' and what is spoken today; yet the people who speak Nahuatl today are the desecndants of the people who spoke it five centuries ago. The practice of isolating classical Nahuatl is rather like calling the English of Shakespeare's time "Classical English" while referring to English as it is spoken today in various places around the world as "the modern dialects." It is not technically wrong, but if we don't do it for English, we should be wary of doing so for Nahuatl"(Campbell and Karttunen p2). If this is a listserve of so-called scholars and a lowly undergrad student, like me, can see the error in this kind of mislabeling, then surely u guys see it too... From dfrye at umich.edu Fri Oct 20 15:41:09 2000 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:41:09 -0400 Subject: Nahuatlan? In-Reply-To: <200010192349.TAA20978@nantucket.net> Message-ID: It might be worth adding that the term "Nahuatlan" is an invention of a linguist (or rather an linguistic anthropologist, Daniel Brinton, according to the encyclopedia...). The intended implication is "the greater Nahuatl-like family" -- so don't try to gloss it as nuahua + tlan or some such. (Also, as should have been obvious, the reference to 'extinct Aztec' was a quote from some dictionary, not a direct posting by anyone on the list.) David Frye From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Fri Oct 20 16:37:06 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:37:06 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Summer Language Institute IV at Yale University Message-ID: Nahuatl Summer Language Institute IV at Yale University Summer 2001 Jonathan D. Amith The Nahuatl Summer Language Institute at Yale University, now entering its fourth year, is part of a comprehensive project to provide learning and research tools in this language and to bring together experts in the field of Nahuatl language and culture. In addition to discussing the institute's progress to date and its plans for the immediate future, this short report will hopefully encourage scholars who have worked on Nahuatl to contact the institute and perhaps assist in its development. We welcome participation by anyone interested in helping us meet the goals of advancing Nahuatl studies. One of the primary objectives of the institute is to create a learning environment that will meet the needs of a wide range of students-including historians, art historians, anthropologists, linguists, and heritage language speakers. Besides receiving intensive instruction in modern Nahuatl (15-20 hrs/week for 8 weeks), students have attended invited lectures, workshops, and one-week supplementary seminars by leading Nahuatl scholars from a variety of disciplines. Last year James Lockhart (emeritus, UCLA) conducted the one-week seminar on colonial Nahuatl; shorter invited lectures were presented by Louise Burkhart (SUNY, Albany), Willard Gingerich (St. John's), and Alan Sandstrom (Indiana University-Purdue University, Fort Wayne). This coming summer the basic introductory course will again by taught by Jonathan Amith. The basic text for the course-a reference/pedagogical grammar and lexicon of the modern dialect spoken in Ameyaltepec, Guerrero-is organized to facilitate comparison with colonial Nahuatl and to provide a basic understanding of Nahuatl morphology and syntax that will be of utility to those studying any variant of Nahuatl. This coming summer will also be marked by the completion of the first draft of an 10,000-entry lexicon of the Nahuatl spoken in Ameyaltepec, Guerrero. This will be used in the course and provide a significant addition to the colonial sources already available. It will also provide a lexical base for working with the modern grammar and learning exercises. The dictionary will be placed online in the Fall of 2001 by the Linguistic Data Consortium of the University of Pennsylvania. Guest lectures and workshops for the 2001 introductory course will be offered by Louise Burkhart, Willard Gingerich, and John Justeson (State University of New York, Albany). Michel Launey will give the special one-week invited lecture. Given the interest shown for the first three institutes (9 students in 1998, 13 in 1999, and 7 in 2000), we are excited to announce that for 2002 we are now planning to offer, with funding from the Center for Latin American Studies of the University of Chicago, a five- or six-week institute for advanced instruction in Nahuatl. This unique course will comprise a series of three workshops, each conducted by a leading expert in Nahuatl. To date James Lockhart and Michel Launey have agreed to participate; each will be in charge of intensive instruction for two weeks. A third individual will subsequently be invited to complete the team. Enrollment will be open to anyone who has completed the introductory course during the first four years or to scholars who can demonstrate a proficiency in Nahuatl equivalent to one year of study. The goal of this new course is to provide, for the first time we are aware of, advanced instruction in Nahuatl, thus enabling students to attain a high level of proficiency in this language through direct intensive work with experts in the field. Details of this workshop will be announced in Fall 2001, both in print and on the website (http://www.yale.edu/Nahuatl). The desire to offer this advanced course represents a commitment of the institute to provide tools for training the next generation of Nahuatl scholars. The development of an electronic database of Nahuatl and its placement online represents another goal of the Nahuatl institute: to develop and make universally available a set of research and pedagogical tools for research on and learning about Nahuatl. Mark Liberman and Steven Bird of the Linguistic Data Consortium at the University of Pennsylvania have provided invaluable assistance in developing a prototype search engine for a web-based Nahuatl lexicon of Ameyaltepec (at http//www.ldc.upenn/hyperlex) that will eventually comprise over 10,000 entries (Nahuatl to Spanish and English). It will be linked to an electronic version of the reference/pedagogical grammar in an effort to solve a major problem for instructional material in less commonly taught languages: how to provide the grammatical and pedagogical context for a dictionary while furnishing the appropriate lexical base for students to implement the language skills they learn through a grammar. Interactive exercises will accompany each lesson, offering the possibility of learning Nahuatl at a distance (a preliminary version of this effort can be viewed at http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl) The U.S. Department of Education, through its International Research and Studies Program, has granted two years of support to develop these materials for classroom and research use as part of a Nahuatl Learning Environment. The final product will include a lexicon, grammar, exercises, drawings and photographs, and sound files. Additional support for the Nahuatl Summer Language Institute and the Nahuatl Learning Environment has been provided by Yale University, the Latin American Studies Consortium of New England, and the University of Chicago Center for Latin American Studies through funding from the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation and the U.S. Department of Education. For more information, including application materials to attend the 2001 intensive summer institute, please contact the coordinator of the institute at jonathan.amith at yale.edu (503/831-3151) or visit the institute website at http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl. Scholars who have worked on Nahuatl and wish to discuss their possible participation in future institutes or in jointly developing resource materials for research on and teaching of Nahuatl are cordially invited to contact the institute or the Council on Latin American Studies at Yale (latin.america at yale.edu or 203/432-3420). Jonathan D Amith 1460 James Howe Rd Dallas, OR 97338 Tel. 503/831-3151 From vogelm01 at student.ucr.edu Fri Oct 20 16:40:30 2000 From: vogelm01 at student.ucr.edu (Matthew Vogel) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 09:40:30 -0700 Subject: Nahuatlan? In-Reply-To: <001d01c03aa9$52b12900$442678cc@mshome.net> Message-ID: Man Steve, that was a bit harsh... then again, so was the undergrad. You kids behave. On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Steve Swanson wrote: > Dear undergraduate student, > > I think that a careful review of the postings regarding "nahuatlan" will > show that the characterizations and labels to which you refer were > being cited from a library's index system and its entry on Nahuatl > related languages. In that original email, it was pointed out that the > labels used for those languages were an improvement over just calling > them all "Aztec" languages, but the query was seeking advice from > Nahuatl scholars and interested parties on this list as to the > appropriateness > of "Nahuatlan". As your citation of Campbell and Karttunen indicate, > we need to be conscious of our labels, and the spirit in which you write > is appreciated. However, since it appears that nobody in this thread, > who you label "so-called scholars" from your position of anonymity, > actually used those labels, your post seems somewhat misdirected. > > Addressing the spirit of your post, I agree that there are some > negative implications for the use of the term "classic" or "classical" > Nahuatl, as there are for a term like "classic" or "classical" Greek. > My reading of these terms is that the "climax" of the civilization > that used the language has passed, and the language spoken during > that cultural "climax" is better, or more pure, or more relevant than > modern forms of the language. Does anyone on this list know how > native speakers of Greek or Nahuatl (or any other language descended > from a "classical" language) perceive or refer to older forms of their > language? > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 6:56 AM > Subject: Re: Nahuatlan? > > > look at u, labeling the so-called ancient "aztec" language or so-called > classical language as "extinct." I think it's high-time that you rid > yourself of that practice. Even Joe Campbell admonishes that, "Scholars of > Nahuatl are accustomed to talk about 'classical Nahuatl' and what is spoken > today; yet the people who speak Nahuatl today are the desecndants of the > people who spoke it five centuries ago. The practice of isolating classical > Nahuatl is rather like calling the English of Shakespeare's time "Classical > English" while referring to English as it is spoken today in various places > around the world as "the modern dialects." It is not technically wrong, but > if we don't do it for English, we should be wary of doing so for > Nahuatl"(Campbell and Karttunen p2). If this is a listserve of so-called > scholars and a lowly undergrad student, like me, can see the error in this > kind of mislabeling, then surely u guys see it too... > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Oct 20 18:22:55 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 13:22:55 -0500 Subject: Nahuatlan? In-Reply-To: <77.b10f363.2721a8fd@aol.com> Message-ID: what is u? On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 War14655 at aol.com wrote: > look at u, labeling the so-called ancient "aztec" language or so-called > classical language as "extinct." I think it's high-time that you rid > yourself of that practice. Even Joe Campbell admonishes that, "Scholars of > Nahuatl are accustomed to talk about 'classical Nahuatl' and what is spoken > today; yet the people who speak Nahuatl today are the desecndants of the > people who spoke it five centuries ago. The practice of isolating classical > Nahuatl is rather like calling the English of Shakespeare's time "Classical > English" while referring to English as it is spoken today in various places > around the world as "the modern dialects." It is not technically wrong, but > if we don't do it for English, we should be wary of doing so for > Nahuatl"(Campbell and Karttunen p2). If this is a listserve of so-called > scholars and a lowly undergrad student, like me, can see the error in this > kind of mislabeling, then surely u guys see it too... > From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Fri Oct 20 18:58:33 2000 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:58:33 -0700 Subject: Nahuatlan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Michael Mccafferty wrote: |what is u? u=you He was saving bandwidth, and your query (and this message) now wastes it. (Sigh.) From War14655 at aol.com Sat Oct 21 00:14:32 2000 From: War14655 at aol.com (War14655 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 20:14:32 EDT Subject: Nahuatlan? Message-ID: "u" is a variation of the word "you" from "classical english", LOL, got u!!!!!!! From War14655 at aol.com Sat Oct 21 00:19:37 2000 From: War14655 at aol.com (War14655 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 20:19:37 EDT Subject: Nahuatlan? Message-ID: In the question of how speakers of "classsical" languages, why dont u ask them yourself Steve? From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Oct 22 15:43:04 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:43:04 -0500 Subject: (no subject) (fwd) Message-ID: Fritz, I'd like to report this harrassing message that came as a result of my asking War14655 at aol.com about the meaning of "u" in his recent harangue to the nahuat-l. Just for the record. Michael ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 13:43:58 EDT From: War14655 at aol.com To: mmccaffe at indiana.edu Subject: (no subject) if u understood what ti means then why r u being an asshole urself about it? Go piss off and quit sending me harrassing emails or I'll report u u arrogant dickhead!!!!!! ---------------------- ti=it From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Oct 22 15:51:51 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:51:51 -0500 Subject: (no subject) (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: sorry, Fritz, that was just supposed to go to you. oops. Michael From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Oct 22 15:53:38 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:53:38 -0500 Subject: (no subject) (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My sincere apologies to the list for that recent message from me. It was supposed to go to Fritz specifically but got sent to the entire list. Michael From mosquerd at union.edu Mon Oct 23 03:28:55 2000 From: mosquerd at union.edu (Daniel Mosquera) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 23:28:55 -0400 Subject: Call For Papers: McNeil Center for Early American Studies (fwd) Message-ID: I have received this call for papers from a friend. Since I have not seen any reference to this conference in the list, I thought it would be a good idea to spread the word. DM >Subject: Call For Papers: McNeil Center for Early American Studies (fwd) >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:44:15 -0600 > >Call For Papers >McNeil Center for Early American Studies: >New World Orders: >Violence, Sanction, and Authority in the Early Modern Americas, 1500-1825 > > The McNeil Center for Early American Studies (www.mceas.org) >invites paper proposals for a conference entitled "New World Orders: >Violence, Sanction, and Authority in the Early Modern Americas, 1500-1825," >to be held in Philadelphia on October 19-20, 2001. This conference will >explore the wide variety of extralegal means by which social order was >maintained in the early Americas, with a particular emphasis on how >extralegal sanctions were defined and used; how extralegal sanctions >related to legal forms of maintaining order; and how these patterns of >sanction, embedded within other forms of colonialism and culture, created >cultural, legal, social, or imperial "spaces" in the Americas. > The organizers have three interrelated aims. The first is to >rethink the assumption, still implicit in many accounts of American >colonization, that European discourses of law and authority operated as the >dominant cultural authority in the early Americas. By calling this >assumption into question, this conference may help scholars begin to see >more clearly the relationship of "law" as a cultural form to other domains >of social and cultural life. The second aim is to interrogate the >relationship between various forms of authority and the construction of >"space" in the early Americas. In essence, this conference will explore the >ways in which spaces were constructed through assertions of sovereign >authority over those spaces, whether legally, politically, or religiously. >In other words, this conference aims to move beyond Western notions of >legal sovereignty and to see the ways in which attempts to create colonial >centers of power through sanctions of various kinds were inextricably >linked to the creation of imperial boundaries, and vice versa. Third, the >organizers hope to explore these questions in a way that connects >historiographies of British, Spanish, French, Dutch and Portuguese >colonization to the history of the Atlantic world as a whole. > Topics may include (but are not limited to) explorations of the >construction of sacred, gendered, and racialized spaces in everyday life; >the role played by material culture and the built environment in defining >colonial authority; the relationships between legal and extralegal >discourse in the constitution of colonial power; patterns of violence, >sanction, and war in colonial borderlands; notions of colonial space and >sovereignty in theory and practice; or the evolution and hybridization of >European, African, or Indian modes of maintaining order in creole American >settlements. The conference organizers encourage scholars to interpret the >conference themes broadly in crafting their proposals. > The organizers invite proposals from scholars working in all >disciplines . Proposals should include a brief c.v. and a three-to-five >page prospectus explaining the substance of the proposed paper, the sources >to be used, and the topic's relationship to the conference themes. Those >invited to participate in the conference will be asked to submit papers of >approximately 30 pages in length by August 15, 2001 for pre-circulation to >conference attendees. A steering committee composed of Matthew Restall >(Pennsylvania State University), Thomas Humphrey (Cleveland State >University), and John Smolenski (University of Pennsylvania) will screen >proposals and arrange sessions and commentators. Direct questions to >smolensk at sas.upenn.edu or tom.humphrey at csuohio.edu. Send three copies of >the proposal to: New World Orders Conference, MCEAS, 3619 Locust Walk, >Philadelphia, PA 19104-6213. Proposals must be post marked by December 1, >2000. -- Daniel O. Mosquera Assistant Professor of Spanish Modern Languages & Literature Union College Schenectady, NY 12308 Tel: (518) 388-6415 Fax: (518) 388-6462 http://www1.union.edu/~mosquerd -- "If we could see ourselves as others see us, we would vanish on the spot" -- E. M. Cioran From fvaldes at omega.itlaguna.edu.mx Tue Oct 24 14:13:43 2000 From: fvaldes at omega.itlaguna.edu.mx (Francisco Valdes) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 08:13:43 -0600 Subject: "e" termination In-Reply-To: <20001024025129870.AAA553@estelecom01.saltel.com@laptop> Message-ID: Last Sunday I watched a badly edited TV program in Canal Once on Nahuatl. A historian, whose name I did not catch said, that many features of Nahuatl are present in Mexican Castellano. He offered as an example the interjections ending in an "e", for example: "orale!", "andale!", "dale!", "pegale!", etc. If there was an explanation for this assertion it was edited out. Can any of you offer a theory on how the "e" ending comes from Nahuatl? Saludos, Francisco Valdes From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu Tue Oct 24 14:19:03 2000 From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 10:19:03 -0400 Subject: "e" termination Message-ID: There are words used in Spanish (especially Mexican Spanish) that end in e and derive from Nahuatl words that end in "tl". Words like "aguacate," "papalote," "coyote," etc. Maybe this is where he got the idea. I don't see the relationship, though, to phrases like "andale," "dale," "pegale," etc. Galen Francisco Valdes wrote: > Last Sunday I watched a badly edited TV program in Canal Once on Nahuatl. > A historian, whose name I did not catch said, that many features of Nahuatl > are present in Mexican Castellano. He offered as an example the > interjections ending in an "e", for example: "orale!", "andale!", "dale!", > "pegale!", etc. > If there was an explanation for this assertion it was edited out. > Can any of you offer a theory on how the "e" ending comes from Nahuatl? > Saludos, > Francisco Valdes From karttu at nantucket.net Tue Oct 24 14:20:34 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 10:20:34 -0400 Subject: "e" termination Message-ID: Looks like the worst sort of folk etymology to me. The "e" in these words belongs to the Spanish grammatical particle/enclitic le. The Nahuatl (male) vocative form used in addressing people (not in making exclamations) ends in the stressed suffix -e. These things have neither similar meaning nor similar grammatical function. Fran ---------- >From: Francisco Valdes >To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >Subject: "e" termination >Date: Tue, Oct 24, 2000, 10:13 AM > > Last Sunday I watched a badly edited TV program in Canal Once on Nahuatl. > A historian, whose name I did not catch said, that many features of Nahuatl > are present in Mexican Castellano. He offered as an example the > interjections ending in an "e", for example: "orale!", "andale!", "dale!", > "pegale!", etc. > If there was an explanation for this assertion it was edited out. > Can any of you offer a theory on how the "e" ending comes from Nahuatl? > Saludos, > Francisco Valdes > From heatherhess at hotmail.com Tue Oct 24 19:33:33 2000 From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 19:33:33 GMT Subject: (no subject) (fwd) Message-ID: unbelievable! there seems to be nothing sacred! Yolohtzin >From: Michael Mccafferty >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >Subject: (no subject) (fwd) >Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:43:04 -0500 (EST) > > >Fritz, >I'd like to report this harrassing message that came as a result of my >asking War14655 at aol.com about the meaning of "u" in his recent harangue to >the nahuat-l. >Just for the record. > >Michael > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 13:43:58 EDT >From: War14655 at aol.com >To: mmccaffe at indiana.edu >Subject: (no subject) > >if u understood what ti means then why r u being an asshole urself about >it? >Go piss off and quit sending me harrassing emails or I'll report u u >arrogant >dickhead!!!!!! > > > >---------------------- >ti=it > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Tue Oct 24 22:30:01 2000 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 15:30:01 -0700 Subject: (no subject) (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, Heather Hess wrote: |unbelievable! there seems to be nothing sacred! | |Yolohtzin Now, *that* would make a clever sentence somehow rendered into Nahuatl. :) (Incredibile, quod nihil esse sacrum videtur.) From indus56 at telusplanet.net Tue Oct 10 00:17:17 2000 From: indus56 at telusplanet.net (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 18:17:17 -0600 Subject: Matl / Tezcatlipoca? Message-ID: Hi all, happy thanksgiving to those who celebrate it. At the AHILA website I ran across a fragment of what the author, Jansen I assume, describes as a conjury against bandits in the road. From there to cross-roads, from cross-roads to night and thence to an identification of Tezcatlipoca as the principal actor here. Two questions, one specific, one general. 1. "Matl" - what does it mean, who is it? I've been to Joe Campbell's dictionary and get this as a stem (?) in things like matlatl - blue water, nets, multiples of ten. 1. Is "Matl" a manifestation of a particular god, Tezcatlipoca for example? That's two questions already. I'd better stop there for now. many thanks, Paul Anderson The fragment and attribution are as follows: http://www.dsp.unito.it/AHILA/publicaciones/cuaderno5/2_jansen.html (Ruiz de Alarc?n Tratado II, cap. 1) Nomatca nehuatl niquetzalcoatl, nimatl, ca nehuatl niyaotl nimoquequeloatzin Ye axcan yez: niquinmaahuiltiz nohueltihuan Yo mismo, yo Quetzalcoatl, yo Matl, ya que yo soy la guerra, y me burlo de todo. Ahora as? ser?: me burlar? de mis hermanas..." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AscheAsh2 at aol.com Tue Oct 10 08:55:28 2000 From: AscheAsh2 at aol.com (AscheAsh2 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 04:55:28 EDT Subject: matl Message-ID: I have what follows: matl (=matl?) measure, only applied by numbers up to 20. Castillo 1972:213. (matl=2,5027 m) cf. also Cline:1966:93. Hinz/Hartau/Heimann: Aztek.Zensus I, Molotla , add. Anderson, Beyond the Cod. 26. ell of land Molotla 12. span. braza, 6 feet, fathom (?= volume) For now that is all. Hear from you? Werner Asche From lemarc at attglobal.net Tue Oct 10 13:40:35 2000 From: lemarc at attglobal.net (Marc Eisinger) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:40:35 +0200 Subject: Out of print Message-ID: Dear friends, I'm looking for a copy of Joe Campbell's dictionnary. Does any one of you could sale a spare copy or tell me where I could have a chance to find one ? Thanks, Marc Eisinger -- War does not determine who is right - only who is left (Anonymous) From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu Tue Oct 10 13:32:14 2000 From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:32:14 -0400 Subject: matl Message-ID: Dear Werner and Paul, The second "matl" to which Werner refers means "hand." Evidently, the "i" got elided from the original "maitl." In some indigenous land documents that have both pictographic and alphabetic versions, you will find the measurement written in Nahuatl as so many by so many "matl." And in the pictographic version you will find a number of hand glyphs drawn on each side of the plot of land that correspond to the number of "matl," that is the length of the border. It seems that the indigenous measure was originally based on the distance between outstretched hands, which the Spanish equated to the "braza." I know this probably doesn't help you, Paul, unless the "matl" that you are studying is also the elided form of "maitl" and had some kind of metaphorical significance. Galen > I have what follows: > matl (=matl?) measure, only applied by numbers up to 20. > Castillo 1972:213. (matl=2,5027 m) > cf. also Cline:1966:93. > Hinz/Hartau/Heimann: Aztek.Zensus I, Molotla , add. > Anderson, Beyond the Cod. 26. > ell of land Molotla 12. > span. braza, 6 feet, fathom (?= volume) > For now that is all. > Hear from you? > Werner Asche From indus56 at telusplanet.net Tue Oct 10 16:19:08 2000 From: indus56 at telusplanet.net (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:19:08 -0600 Subject: matl Message-ID: Dear Galen, thanks so much for the clear exposition. It leads me to wonder if Matl might be some guise of "distance" as in the Lord of Near and Far. Very helpful, very intriguing. Do you know off hand (as it were) the plural for "matl" as armspan? cheers, Paul Anderson Galen Brokaw wrote: > Dear Werner and Paul, > The second "matl" to which Werner refers means "hand." Evidently, the "i" got > elided from the original "maitl." In some indigenous land documents that have > both pictographic and alphabetic versions, you will find the measurement > written in Nahuatl as so many by so many "matl." And in the pictographic > version you will find a number of hand glyphs drawn on each side of the plot of > land that correspond to the number of "matl," that is the length of the border. > It seems that the indigenous measure was originally based on the distance > between outstretched hands, which the Spanish equated to the "braza." > I know this probably doesn't help you, Paul, unless the "matl" that you are > studying is also the elided form of "maitl" and had some kind of metaphorical > significance. > Galen > > > I have what follows: > > matl (=matl?) measure, only applied by numbers up to 20. > > Castillo 1972:213. (matl=2,5027 m) > > cf. also Cline:1966:93. > > Hinz/Hartau/Heimann: Aztek.Zensus I, Molotla , add. > > Anderson, Beyond the Cod. 26. > > ell of land Molotla 12. > > span. braza, 6 feet, fathom (?= volume) > > For now that is all. > > Hear from you? > > Werner Asche From mdmorris at indiana.edu Tue Oct 10 16:16:55 2000 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:16:55 -0500 Subject: Out of print In-Reply-To: <39E31C50.72F6314E@attglobal.net> Message-ID: I believe both Campbell's dictionary and Porrua's edition of Molina are out of print. Would popular demand from the interested academic community (us) be just cause for a publisher to reprint these works? Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Tue Oct 10 17:31:52 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:31:52 -0600 Subject: Out of print In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:16 AM 10/10/00 -0500, you wrote: >I believe both Campbell's dictionary and Porrua's edition of Molina are >out of print. Would popular demand from the interested academic community >(us) be just cause for a publisher to reprint these works? The Porrua - Molina is very much in print. I just checked a couple of weeks ago. Porrua advertises it on its web site. John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/provost/ From scalderon at ref.pemex.com Tue Oct 10 19:13:56 2000 From: scalderon at ref.pemex.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:13:56 -0500 Subject: Out of print Message-ID: At 11:16 AM 10/10/00 -0500, you wrote: >I believe both Campbell's dictionary and Porrua's edition of Molina are >out of print. Would popular demand from the interested academic community >(us) be just cause for a publisher to reprint these works? The Porrua - Molina is very much in print. I just checked a couple of weeks ago. Porrua advertises it on its web site. There is a link to this book in my nahuatl page http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/nahuatl.html I've also added some books in my archeology page: http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/arqueolog.html Salvador Calder?n John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/provost/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scalderon at spin.com.mx Tue Oct 10 19:36:49 2000 From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:36:49 -0500 Subject: Linguistic rights Message-ID: You can find Campbell's book through a link in my page http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/nahuatl.html I've also added some books that might interest you at my archeology page: http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/arqueolog.html Salvador Calder?n At 11:16 AM 10/10/00 -0500, you wrote: >I believe both Campbell's dictionary and Porrua's edition of Molina are >out of print. Would popular demand from the interested academic community >(us) be just cause for a publisher to reprint these works? The Porrua - Molina is very much in print. I just checked a couple of weeks ago. Porrua advertises it on its web site. John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/provost/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at nantucket.net Tue Oct 10 11:49:21 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 07:49:21 -0400 Subject: matl Message-ID: The most authoritative study of Ruiz de Alarcon's work is the Andrews and Hassig translation and annotation published by the University of Oklahoma Press. A&H claim that the Matl in question is a variant form of ma:itl 'hand/arm' (which is cognate, I suppose, with the unit of measure cited in the following message). A&H say that in the context of this particular charm, it is one of the appellations of Quetzalcoatl. They don't give any further interpretation. When there isn't much context, there is a lot of wisdom to avoiding speculation. ---------- >From: AscheAsh2 at aol.com >To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >Subject: Re: matl >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 4:55 AM > > I have what follows: > matl (=matl?) measure, only applied by numbers up to 20. > Castillo 1972:213. (matl=2,5027 m) > cf. also Cline:1966:93. > Hinz/Hartau/Heimann: Aztek.Zensus I, Molotla , add. > Anderson, Beyond the Cod. 26. > ell of land Molotla 12. > span. braza, 6 feet, fathom (?= volume) > For now that is all. > Hear from you? > Werner Asche > From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue Oct 10 22:24:31 2000 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:24:31 -0600 Subject: Out of print Message-ID: I've been using the Digibis/Fundaci?n Hist?rica Tavera facsimilar edition of Molina on CD-ROM and can recommend it highly. Besides Molina it has Carochi, Arenas, Avila, Galdo Guzman, Guerra, Olmos, P?rez, Rinc?n, Sandoval, Tapia Zenteno, Vetancourt and other authors (even the "C?dice Franciscano"!), all in digital facsimil from microfilm, not extremely sharp but easily readable. Ascensi?n Hern?ndez de Le?n-Portilla compiles the collection and wrote the introductory study. The interface works very well and facsimiles can be printed out with a click ot a mouse. See publisher's web page at http://www.digibis.com/. Saludos, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdmorris at indiana.edu Tue Oct 10 22:34:50 2000 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:34:50 -0500 Subject: matl In-Reply-To: <39E31A5E.88B162CB@lafayette.edu> Message-ID: Whether the land unit "matl" derived from "maitl" Galen cites has connection with the "matl" of matlactli (ten) and if either of those relate to the green-blue "matl" is unclear to me. However, if folks would like I can run the question past Luis Reyes on Saturday and pass on my notes. I am always more than satisfied with his explanations, and perhaps others would also find them so. We went over Xihuitl last Saturday, for example, and he gave a very succinct explanation of its semantic field, including a pretty good reason why comets are seen as bad omens. best, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From mdmorris at indiana.edu Tue Oct 10 22:45:43 2000 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:45:43 -0500 Subject: Out of print In-Reply-To: <001101c032ef$753bcdc0$0c01148f@ref.pemex.com> Message-ID: Just to keep things clear, unless Porrua has re-issued the Molina dictionary since July it is out of print. NeitherPorrua's main store inCalle Argentina nor even the Libreria Madero have copies. I confess I haven't tried buying it on-line, nor searched every bookstore in the D.F., however the latest printing from Porrua is sold out. best, Mark MOrris On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, [iso-8859-1] Salvador Calder?n wrote: > At 11:16 AM 10/10/00 -0500, you wrote: > > > > >I believe both Campbell's dictionary and Porrua's edition of Molina are > > >out of print. Would popular demand from the interested academic community > > >(us) be just cause for a publisher to reprint these works? > > > > > > The Porrua - Molina is very much in print. I just checked a couple of > > weeks ago. Porrua advertises it on its web site. > > There is a link to this book in my nahuatl page > > http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/nahuatl.html > > I've also added some books in my archeology page: > > http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/arqueolog.html > > Salvador Calder?n > > > > > > > > John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu > > Associate Provost 406-243-4722 > > The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 > > http://www.umt.edu/provost/ > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. Eccl 1:18 To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From scalderon at spin.com.mx Tue Oct 10 23:18:28 2000 From: scalderon at spin.com.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:18:28 -0500 Subject: XII Feria del libro INAH Message-ID: XII Feria del Libro de Antropolog?a e Historia (FLAH) Cada a?o, desde 1989, el Museo Nacional de Antropolog?a alberga en el mes de octubre a la Feria del Libro de Antropolog?a e Historia (FLAH), que es el evento editorial m?s importante de su tipo en M?xico y Am?rica Latina. En la FLAH participan las principales instituciones de investigaci?n y educaci?n, as? como las editoriales mexicanas y extranjeras cuya producci?n se centra en temas de antropolog?a, historia, arqueolog?a, etnolog?a, ling??stica y en general en las ciencias sociales. A lo largo de estos a?os, el p?blico de la FLAH se ha conformado entre los investigadores, acad?micos, estudiantes y especialistas en los temas de su competencia, quienes en cada emisi?n acuden al Museo Nacional de Antropolog?a para conocer y adquirir las novedades editoriales en las ?reas de su inter?s. Al mismo tiempo, la FLAH se ha esforzado por ofrecer al p?blico especialista un nutrido programa de actividades acad?micas de alto nivel, las cuales atraen a una gran cantidad de asistentes que tambi?n visitan el ?rea de exhibici?n y venta de publicaciones. Un ejemplo de estas actividades es el V Simposio Rom?n Pi?a Chan, que se realizar? del 16 al 20 de octubre en el marco de la FLAH y reunir? a reconocidos escritores y arque?logos, quienes de manera conjunta reflexionar?n en torno al valor e importancia de la conservaci?n de los vestigios arqueol?gicos en M?xico. Asimismo, cabe enfatizar los buenos resultados obtenidos en el D?a de Acad?micos, cuando los editores ofrecen descuentos especiales a los bibliotecarios, acad?micos, investigadores y estudiantes que acuden cada lunes de feria y aprovechan las promociones. En esta ocasi?n el D?a de Acad?micos tendr? lugar el lunes 16 de octubre. Tradicionalmente la feria cuenta con un buen n?mero de actividades recreativas, entre las que destacan los talleres para ni?os que tienen como fin acercarlos a la lectura y los libros de historia y de las disciplinas antropol?gicas. Por todo ello, la FLAH es el espacio m?s adecuado para la difusi?n de las obras que abordan los temas se?alados, ya que re?ne al p?blico adecuado y permite a los editores entrar en contacto con colegas y especialistas de M?xico y otros pa?ses. C?mo participar en estas Ferias El Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia ofrece a las instituciones y editoriales la posibilidad de participar en ambas ferias o en una sola, seg?n el inter?s de cada expositor. Se tiene contemplado ofrecer descuentos especiales para aquellos editores que deseen participar en ambas ferias. En las dos ferias se contar? con la opci?n de autoservicio para que los editores que tengan un fondo de obras limitado en los temas de la FLAH, o que no puedan enviar a un representante, est?n presentes a trav?s de la renta de un librero, en cuyo caso el Comit? Organizador se encargar? de la comercializaci?n y del reporte de los resultados, as? como de recopilar informaci?n de la gente interesada en acercarse a las editoriales de manera directa. Si usted est? interesado en participar y/o recibir informaci?n de estas ferias, por favor comun?quese con el Proyecto de Ferias de Libros a los tel?fonos 52-07-45-59, 52-07-45-73, 52-07-45-84, fax 52-07-46-33 o a la direcci?n electr?nica divulgacion.cdifus at inah.gob.mx From indus56 at telusplanet.net Wed Oct 11 00:25:43 2000 From: indus56 at telusplanet.net (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:25:43 -0600 Subject: matl Message-ID: Mark, I for one would be delighted to hear about the follow up on matl. best wishes, Paul Mark David Morris wrote: > Whether the land unit "matl" derived from "maitl" Galen cites has > connection with the "matl" of matlactli (ten) and if either of those > relate to the green-blue "matl" is unclear to me. However, if folks would > like I can run the question past Luis Reyes on Saturday and pass on my > notes. I am always more than satisfied with his explanations, and perhaps > others would also find them so. We went over Xihuitl last Saturday, for > example, and he gave a very succinct explanation of its semantic field, > including a pretty good reason why comets are seen as bad omens. > > best, > > Mark Morris > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more > grief. Eccl 1:18 > > To realize that our knowledge is ignorance, this is a noble insight. To > regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we > are sick of our sickness, shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not > sick, being sick of sickness; This is the secret of health. TTC 71 > > MDM, PhD Candidate > Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. > From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu Wed Oct 11 01:00:05 2000 From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:00:05 -0400 Subject: matl Message-ID: Paul, In the documents I have worked with it only appears as "matl," even when it is plural. This is probably because the unit of measurement was considered inanimate, and inanimate nouns did not change their form to indicate plurality. Galen Paul Anderson wrote: > Dear Galen, thanks so much for the clear exposition. It leads me to wonder if Matl > might be some guise of "distance" as in the Lord of Near and Far. Very helpful, > very intriguing. Do you know off hand (as it were) the plural for "matl" as > armspan? > cheers, Paul Anderson > > Galen Brokaw wrote: > > > Dear Werner and Paul, > > The second "matl" to which Werner refers means "hand." Evidently, the "i" got > > elided from the original "maitl." In some indigenous land documents that have > > both pictographic and alphabetic versions, you will find the measurement > > written in Nahuatl as so many by so many "matl." And in the pictographic > > version you will find a number of hand glyphs drawn on each side of the plot of > > land that correspond to the number of "matl," that is the length of the border. > > It seems that the indigenous measure was originally based on the distance > > between outstretched hands, which the Spanish equated to the "braza." > > I know this probably doesn't help you, Paul, unless the "matl" that you are > > studying is also the elided form of "maitl" and had some kind of metaphorical > > significance. > > Galen > > > > > I have what follows: > > > matl (=matl?) measure, only applied by numbers up to 20. > > > Castillo 1972:213. (matl=2,5027 m) > > > cf. also Cline:1966:93. > > > Hinz/Hartau/Heimann: Aztek.Zensus I, Molotla , add. > > > Anderson, Beyond the Cod. 26. > > > ell of land Molotla 12. > > > span. braza, 6 feet, fathom (?= volume) > > > For now that is all. > > > Hear from you? > > > Werner Asche From susana.moraleda at dragotto.com Thu Oct 12 14:39:08 2000 From: susana.moraleda at dragotto.com (Susana Moraleda) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:39:08 +0200 Subject: R: Aztec or Mixtec Glyphs Message-ID: I would be interested in receiving a publication list and the workbook for the Mixtec codices. What is the price? Thanks, Susana Moraleda Rome, Italy ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Monday, July 19, 1999 10:52 PM Subject: Re: Aztec or Mixtec Glyphs > Robert Comegys: > > a book by Mary Elizabeth Smith > and one by > Bruce Byland and John Pohl (co-authors) > will give you a bunch of them. > > Please provide your postal address, > and we will send you a publication list including > a workbook for the Mixtec codices. > > Lloyd Anderson > Ecological Linguistics > > From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Wed Oct 11 22:17:46 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:17:46 -0600 Subject: Klor de Alva Message-ID: I need help. I need a copy of Jorge Klor de Alba's translation of Sahagun's Coloquios. It was published in the journal, Alcheringa in 1980, vol. 4 num. 2, pp. 52-193. My local interlibrary loan has had problems getting it. If someone has a copy they could copy for me, I'd be deeply appreciative. Contact me off-line, don't hit the reply button. John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/provost/ From scalderon at ref.pemex.com Fri Oct 13 15:30:05 2000 From: scalderon at ref.pemex.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Salvador_Calder=F3n?=) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:30:05 -0500 Subject: Fw: Out of print Message-ID: OOps! There is a mistake in my archeology page?s URL. . The correct one is: http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/arqueolo.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Salvador Calder?n To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:13 PM Subject: Out of print There is a link to this book in my nahuatl page http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/nahuatl.html I've also added some books in my archeology page: http://spin.com.mx/~scalderon/arqueolog.html Salvador Calder?n -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drothering at hotmail.com Fri Oct 13 17:38:33 2000 From: drothering at hotmail.com (Darryl Röthering) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 17:38:33 GMT Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche Message-ID: Could any of you scholars enlighten me on the proper spelling of this word, and more importantly, what its etymology is? BTW, I just tried it for the first time (canned, via Herdez, and at great difficulty on the importation!) and its quite nice. TIA, Darryl Rothering _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Fri Oct 13 18:57:23 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 12:57:23 -0600 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 05:38 PM 10/13/00 +0000, you wrote: >Could any of you scholars enlighten me on the proper spelling of this >word, and more importantly, what its etymology is? The Karttunen Dictionary has: cuitlacoch-in : an ear of maize infected with a fungus that turns the kernels dark gray and deforms them, edible and considered a delicacy, from cuitl(a)-tl - excrement [ and coch(i) - to sleep?] John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/provost/ From malinal at evhr.net Sat Oct 14 04:10:33 2000 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 05:10:33 +0100 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche Message-ID: >vendredi 13 octobre 2000 20:07 John F. Schwaller ?crivait: > > >The Karttunen Dictionary has: >cuitlacoch-in : an ear of maize infected with a fungus that turns the >kernels dark gray and deforms them, edible and considered a delicacy, from >cuitl(a)-tl - excrement [ and coch(i) - to sleep?] > cuitlacochin seems to have two other meanings : 1. also called cuitlacochtototl, a bird, the curve-billed thrasher ?Toxostoma curvirostre? (Dibble Anderson) Regenpfeifer (Seler 1927,106) . This bird announced rains. Dibble Anderson Florentine Codex Book XI p.51. 2. a staf which was ornemented with thrasher?s feathers. This 'thrasher-staf' was used in dances to call rains. Dibble Anderson Florentine Codex Book II p. 75 (?ycuitlacuchcho? = his thrasher (stave). I would be happy to know where the form : ?cuitlacocheh? occurs. Thankfully. Alexis From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Oct 14 14:33:36 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:33:36 -0400 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche Message-ID: >>The Karttunen Dictionary has: >>cuitlacoch-in : an ear of maize infected with a fungus that turns the >>kernels dark gray and deforms them, edible and considered a delicacy, from >>cuitl(a)-tl - excrement [ and coch(i) - to sleep?] Please note that the query in square brackets is not from the dictionary. I am sure that cuitla-coch-in is a compound, and according to Nahuatl morphology, the coch-in part is the head of the compound, while cuitla- is a modifier, telling one what sort of coch-in, it is. There is no way I know of that the verb cochi could become a noun stem coch-in, nor is there any obvious shared sense between the verb cochi 'to sleep' and the proposed head noun. Joe has a list of the -in nouns that occur in Nahuatl. Maybe he would be kind enough to tell us if besides cuitlacoch-in as a bird name there are other coch-in compounds. Fran From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Sat Oct 14 15:19:25 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:19:25 -0600 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche In-Reply-To: <200010141417.KAA10710@nantucket.net> Message-ID: At 10:33 AM 10/14/2000 -0400, you wrote: >>>cuitl(a)-tl - excrement [ and coch(i) - to sleep?] > > >Please note that the query in square brackets is not from the dictionary. >I am sure that cuitla-coch-in is a compound, and according to Nahuatl >morphology, the coch-in part is the head of the compound, while cuitla- is a >modifier, telling one what sort of coch-in, it is. There is no way I know >of that the verb cochi could become a noun stem coch-in, nor is there any >obvious shared sense between the verb cochi 'to sleep' and the proposed head >noun. Yes, indeed. I put my comment in brackets because it was a bit of whimsy on my part. Sorry for any confusion it might have caused Fritz From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Oct 14 17:22:02 2000 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 12:22:02 -0500 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche In-Reply-To: <200010141417.KAA10710@nantucket.net> Message-ID: The main sections are divided with ********** Concord on "cuitlacoch-" from the Florentine Codex: cuitlacoch** 1. inic motocayotia cuitlacochtototl: itech tlaantli in itlatol, in quitoa *cuitlacoch*, cuitlacoch, tarati, tarat, tatatati, tatatati, titiriti, tiriti:. it is named cuitlacochtototl, which is taken from its song, because it says cuitlacoch, cuitlacoch, tarati, tarat, tatatati, tatatati, titiriti, tiriti. (b.11 f.6 p.51). 2. inic motocayotia cuitlacochtototl: itech tlaantli in itlatol, in quitoa cuitlacoch, *cuitlacoch*, tarati, tarat, tatatati, tatatati, titiriti, tiriti:. it is named cuitlacochtototl, which is taken from its song, because it says cuitlacoch, cuitlacoch, tarati, tarat, tatatati, tatatati, titiriti, tiriti. (b.11 f.6 p.51). cuitlacochi** 3. auh in ye quizaz quiyahuitl, in ye tlamiz in ye itzonco: niman ye ic tlatoa in *cuitlacochi*,. and when the rains were already to pass, when they were already to end, when already they were at their close, thereupon the curve-billed thrasher sang; (b.2 f.1 p.45). 4. *cuitlacochi*: mazorca de maiz que nacen disformes.. smut ears of maize which appear malformed (b.11 f.27 p.281). cuitlacochihua** 5. *cuitlacochihua*,. smut forms. (b.11 f.27 p.281). cuitlacochihui** 6. *cuitlacochihui*. it becomes blotched (b.10 f.6 p.96b). 7. *cuitlacochihui*. it becomes blotched (b.10 f.6 p.109b). 8. *cuitlacochihui*. it becomes blotched (b.10 f.6 p.112a). 9. tlatzihui, moxochiamatlapallaza, moxochiamatlapaltepehua, tlilehua, *cuitlacochihui*,. they fade, shed petals, drop petals, darken, wither. (b.11 f.21 p.214). 10. *cuitlacochihui*.. it becomes smutted. (b.11 f.27 p.281). cuitlacochin** 11. *cuitlacochin*: anozo cuitlacochtototl,. curve-billed thrasher (b.11 f.6 p.51). cuitlacochio** 12. auh quin oncan maco: in inneoquichitol in apozonaltentetl, ihuan quetzalcoyolnacochtli, quetzalichayatl coxoli, hecacehuaztli: zacuantica tlatzinpacholli, xahuactopilli, toztlapilollo, *cuitlacochio*, in ipan hualotlatocaya, inic hualahcia in nican mexico.. and then [and] there they were given their symbols of conquest--the amber lip plugs, and the green, shell-shaped ear pendants; the netted maguey fiber capes; the crested guan feather fans covered with troupial feathers at the bottom; the black staves with tassels of curve-billed thrasher feathers, with which they took the road to arrive here in mexico. (b.9 f.2 p.22). cuitlacochti** 13. *cuitlacochti* in elotl, in cintli,. the green maize ear, the ripened maize ear become smutted. (b.11 f.27 p.281). cuitlacochtic** 14. *cuitlacochtic*. blotched (b.10 f.6 p.96b). 15. *cuitlacochtic*. blotched (b.10 f.6 p.106b). 16. *cuitlacochtic*. blotched (b.10 f.6 p.109b). cuitlacochtototl** 17. cuitlacochin: anozo *cuitlacochtototl*,. curve-billed thrasher (b.11 f.6 p.51). 18. inic motocayotia *cuitlacochtototl*: itech tlaantli in itlatol, in quitoa cuitlacoch, cuitlacoch, tarati, tarat, tatatati, tatatati, titiriti, tiriti:. it is named cuitlacochtototl, which is taken from its song, because it says cuitlacoch, cuitlacoch, tarati, tarat, tatatati, tatatati, titiriti, tiriti. (b.11 f.6 p.51). icuitlacochcho** 19. no motocayotia *icuitlacochcho*, in tzanatopilli.. the grackle-staves were also called their thrasher[-staves]. (b.2 f.3 p.75). **************************** Summary of occurrences in Molina and the Florentine Codex: cuitlacochtli. a?ublado trigo, mayz ocosa semejante (71m1); mayz otrigo a?ublado (71m2). cuitlacochin. ma?orca de mayz da?ada o degenerada (71m1); mazorca de mayz degenerada y diferente delas otras (71m2); curve-billed thrasher (FC). cuitlacoch. ___ (FC). cuitlacochi. ___ (FC). cuitlacochihua. ___ (FC). cuitlacochihui. ___ (FC); it becomes blotched (FC). cuitlacochio. ___ (FC). cuitlacochti. ___ (FC). cuitlacochtic. blotched (FC). cuitlacochtototl. ___ (FC); curve-billed thrasher (FC). ********************** Nouns with the -in absolutive suffix: a:xin axin ointment capolin capolin cherry chacalin chacalin shrimp chapolin chapolin grasshopper chiquimolin chiquimolin goldfinch, talebearer chopilin chopilin cricket cilin cilin snail ci:tlalin citlalin star cohuixin cohuixin lizard cuetzpalin cuetzpalin lizard cui:xin cuixin kite, kind of bird hui:tzilin huitzilin hummingbird ma:tla:lin matlalin dark green metolin metolin moth mexixin mexixin common-cress michin michin fish ocuilin ocuilin worm pipiyolin pipiyolin wild bee quimichin quimichin mouse tamazolin tamazolin toad tapayaxin tapayaxin lizard temolin temolin beetle to:lin tolin reed tomin tomin coin ! to:tolin totolin hen, turkey xohuilin xohuilin kind of fish xomalin xomalin feather grass za:yo:lin zayolin fly zo:lin zolin quail zo:to:lin zotolin palm *************************** The *only* occurrences of '-cochin-' in Molina and the FC: cochina, ni-. ___ (FC). cochini. dormilon (55m, 71m1, 71m2); she is accustomed to sleeping (FC); sleeper, one who sleeps (FC); they are accustomed to sleeping (FC). cochini, iitztoc- . dormidor tal (55m, 71m1). miccacochini. dormidor tal (55m, 71m1); el que duerme los ojos abiertos (71m2). tequicochini. dormilon (71m2). cuitlacochin. ma?orca de mayz da?ada o degenerada (71m1); mazorca de mayz degenerada y diferente delas otras (71m2); curve-billed thrasher (FC). From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Oct 14 18:44:24 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 14:44:24 -0400 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche Message-ID: > tomin tomin coin ! Note that in the Spanish loanword tomin, the -in is not an absolutive suffix. It does not drop off in possessed forms such as notomin 'my coin(s)'. Fran From malinal at evhr.net Sat Oct 14 16:34:25 2000 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 17:34:25 +0100 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche Message-ID: ----------------------------------------------------- -----Message d'origine----- De : Frances Karttunen ? : nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Date : samedi 14 octobre 2000 15:57 Objet : Re: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche >I am sure that cuitla-coch-in is a compound, and according to Nahuatl >morphology, the coch-in part is the head of the compound, while cuitla- is a >modifier, telling one what sort of coch-in, it is. There is no way I know >of that the verb cochi could become a noun stem coch-in, nor is there any >obvious shared sense between the verb cochi 'to sleep' and the proposed head >noun. > >Joe has a list of the -in nouns that occur in Nahuatl. Maybe he would be >kind enough to tell us if besides cuitlacoch-in as a bird name there are >other coch-in compounds. > it is an other bird whoose name could perhaps be related to cuitla-coch-in ?) : cocho or coch-o :tl, the white-fronted parrot Amazona abifrons. Alexis. From Tezozomok at aol.com Sun Oct 15 02:09:10 2000 From: Tezozomok at aol.com (Tezozomok at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 22:09:10 EDT Subject: matl Message-ID: Dearest Mark, I am interested in know about the the discussion of Xihuitl. Az From campbel at indiana.edu Sun Oct 15 03:15:26 2000 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 22:15:26 -0500 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche In-Reply-To: <000601c035fc$a7802dc0$d6c15ed4@poste.evhr.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, alexis wimmer wrote: > > it is an other bird whoose name could perhaps be related to cuitla-coch-in > ?) : cocho or coch-o :tl, the white-fronted parrot Amazona abifrons. > > Alexis. > > Alexis, In order for a morphological identity to be credible, of course, we need a traceable form relationship. But if we don't have a semantic path too, we're in the same situation as with the well-known "-ling" in English. Nobody is willing to argue for a proportional relationship here: boy : boyling :: prince : princeling Of course, sometimes the semantic paths are not obvious -- we are not in the position to see things from inside the mind of the Nahuatl speaker -- and that includes his knowledge of the culture and the world. So when the path is not obvious, someone needs to be our pathfinder -- supply an interpretation. One not very good example is: ni-cualani I get angry nic-cuacualatza I boil it (totally unrelated to boyling example above) Everyone agrees that 'cuacualatza' is an example of a set of regularly derived reduplicated transitive verbs from intransitive ones ending in -ni (usually). But is the semantic interpretation credible? "I continually/repeatedly make it angry" = "I boil it"? In this case, we don't have to stretch our imagination at all -- boiling water does seem angry (and we know that the opposite extension of meaning is used in the case of 'pozoni' "it boils" and 'ni-yollo-popozoca' "I get angry [I heart-boil]"). How do we relate the parrot and the smut? }8-) Best regards, Joe cocho** 1. *cocho*:. white-fronted parrot (b.11 f.3 p.23). 2. quinenehuili in toznene, ihuan in *cocho*:. it resembles the young yellow-headed parrot and the white-fronted parrot. (b.11 f.3 p.23). cochoihhuitl** 3. ihuan in quilhuia quetzaliacatl, in zan tepitoton, in chilchotic, ihuan in tzinitzcan, in teoquechol: in axcan mitoa tlauhquechol, ihuan in xiuhtototl, in ayopal, in toztli, in tozcuicuil, in zacuan, in *cochoihhuitl*, in chamolin, in cuitlatexotli, in cozohtli, in xiuhapalli. etc.. and those they called down feathers, the very small ones, the chili-green ones and the crest feathers of the quetzal; and feathers of the red spoonbill [teoquechol], which is now called tlauhquechol; and the blue cotinga, the amethyst-colored ones, the yellow parrot, the multicolored parrot, the trupial, the red and yellow parrot, the scarlet parrot, the blue parrot, the dove; and aquamarine feathers, etc. (b.4 f.5 p.46). 4. ahzo coztlapalli in motzauchuatza, anozo aztatl, anozo chamolin, anozo cuitlatexotli, anozo *cochoihhuitl*, anozo itla ihhuitl zan tlapalli, tlatlapalpalli:. perhaps yellow dyed ones were glue-hardened, or heron, or scarlet ones, or blue parrot, or green parrot feathers, or some feathers dyed in one color, dyed in many. (b.9 f.7 p.94). 5. auh in tzinitzcan, yehuatl quimopepechtia in *cochoihhuitl*:. and for trogonorus, they used green parrot feathers as a basis. (b.9 f.7 p.94). cochome** 6. totocalli, calpixque oncan quinpiaya, in ixquich nepapan tototl: cuacuauhti, tlauhquechol, zacuan, tozneneme, *cochome*, alome, coxoliti:. totocalli: there majordomos kept all the various birds---eagles, red spoonbills, trupials, yellow parrots, parakeets, large parrots, pheasants. (b.8 f.3 p.45). cochotl** 7. ihuan ompa nemi, in cualli ihhuitl, in tlazotli, in zacuan, in tlauhquechol, in teoquechol, in xiuhtototl, in *cochotl*, in quilito: no ompa nemi in quetzaltototl:. and there were the beautiful feathers, the precious feathers, [the feathers of] the troupial, the red spoonbill, the blue cotinga, the white-fronted parrot, the mexican parrotlets; the resplendent trogonorus was also there. (b.10 f.12 p.187). tencochotic** 8. tencoztic, tencoltic, *tencochotic*, cuachichiquiltic,. it has a yellow, curved bill, like that of the white-fronted parrot; the head is crested. (b.11 f.3 p.22). From dakin at servidor.unam.mx Sun Oct 15 17:02:14 2000 From: dakin at servidor.unam.mx (Karen Dakin) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 12:02:14 -0500 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche In-Reply-To: <001001c03594$bd4c4ca0$d6c15ed4@poste.evhr.net> Message-ID: I've always thought that the -coch- might be related to the -coch- in tlancochtli, and has a meaning similar to 'molar', since the fungus on the grains of cord looks very much likes black molars. The ko- part might be related to the ke(') in 'teeth', since I think Uto-Aztecan *ke- (the e is a barred 'i') at times is also reflected as a ko- in Nahuatl (other 'teeth' words are ke'tzoma 'to bite' and kikisi 'to whistle'). From malinal at evhr.net Mon Oct 16 03:03:54 2000 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 04:03:54 +0100 Subject: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche Message-ID: -----Message d'origine----- De : r. joe campbell ? : nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Date : dimanche 15 octobre 2000 04:36 Objet : Re: Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche > > >On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, alexis wimmer wrote: >> >> it is an other bird whoose name could perhaps be related to cuitla-coch-in >> ?) : cocho or coch-o :tl, the white-fronted parrot Amazona abifrons. >> >> Alexis. >> >> > > >Alexis, > In order for a morphological identity to be credible, of course, we >need a traceable form relationship. But if we don't have a semantic path >too, we're in the same situation as with the well-known "-ling" in >English. Nobody is willing to argue for a proportional relationship here: > > boy : boyling :: prince : princeling > > Of course, sometimes the semantic paths are not obvious -- we are not >in the position to see things from inside the mind of the Nahuatl speaker >-- and that includes his knowledge of the culture and the world. So when >the path is not obvious, someone needs to be our pathfinder -- supply an >interpretation. One not very good example is: > > ni-cualani I get angry > > nic-cuacualatza I boil it (totally unrelated to boyling example above) > >Everyone agrees that 'cuacualatza' is an example of a set of regularly >derived reduplicated transitive verbs from intransitive ones ending in -ni >(usually). But is the semantic interpretation credible? "I >continually/repeatedly make it angry" = "I boil it"? In this case, we >don't have to stretch our imagination at all -- boiling water does seem >angry (and we know that the opposite extension of meaning is used in the >case of 'pozoni' "it boils" and 'ni-yollo-popozoca' "I get angry [I >heart-boil]"). > > How do we relate the parrot and the smut? }8-) > >Best regards, > >Joe > Joe indeed I don?t see any relationship between parrot and smut (boy and boyling!) and the one who wrot : > inic motocayotia cuitlacochtototl: itech tlaantli in itlatol, > in quitoa *cuitlacoch*, cuitlacoch, tarati, tarat, tatatati, > tatatati, titiriti, tiriti:. > it is named cuitlacochtototl, which is taken from its > song, because it says cuitlacoch, cuitlacoch, tarati, tarat, > tatatati, tatatati, titiriti, tiriti. (b.11 f.6 p.51). did also. This implies that the word *cuitlacochin* refers to two homonyms : the name for smut and the name of a bird. Between both apears a merely accidental relationship, an onomatopoeia.. The only true problem is then the etymology of *cuitlacochin*, mazorca de mayz danada o degenerada Nevertheless the ending *-in* does me think to a name of a little animal, a bird for instance In the list you gave only 6/29 words doesn?t refers to (little) animals : capolin capolin cherry ma:tla:lin matlalin dark green mexixin mexixin common-cress to:lin tolin reed xomalin xomalin feather grass zo:to:lin zotolin palm sincerely, Alexis From sales at visibilityfx.com Mon Oct 16 14:33:11 2000 From: sales at visibilityfx.com (Home Buyers Kit) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 08:33:11 -0600 Subject: Free Archaeology Screensaver Message-ID: Archaeologia(www.archaeologia.com), the Premiere Site for Antiquarian, Rare and Out-of-Print Scholarly Books on Archaeology introduces the Archaeology Screensaver. This quick loading screensaver features eleven stunning pictures of achaeological ruins from around the world. This is the first and only Archaeology screensaver and its yours, free! Simply go to our homepage and click on the screensaver link. As a kick off to its new Interactive web site Archaeologia (www.archaeologia.com) welcomes you to download the screensaver and while your at our site take a look around. You can browse our enormous collection of books and prints books covering the areas of Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greece & Rome, the Ancient Near East, and the Americas. This is a targeted mailing of Archaeologia Books and Prints(www.archaeologia.com). If you have received this mailing in error or would like to be removed from the mailing list please send an email to remove at archaeologia.com. Archaeologia Books and Prints 707 Carlston Avenue Oakland, California 94610 United States of America 510-832-1405 From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Mon Oct 16 16:46:27 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 10:46:27 -0600 Subject: Posting to the list Message-ID: Dear subscribers, I have taken some action to prevent the recurrence of the commercial posting, nevertheless, given the current organization of the list these things will happen. It is one of the costs of our freedom. This is not a moderated list. Anyone can post to it, although I am under the impression that it is a closed list insofar as posting is concerned. That means that only subscribers can post. The alternative is to create a moderated list where I, or someone who relieves me, would have to approve each and every posting. I have not sought that privilege for the list, I do not presume. For me one of the pleasures of having founded and "owned" the list is the dynamic of the on-lline conversation. J. F. Schwaller List Owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/provost/ From manyfeathers at hotmail.com Mon Oct 16 17:29:32 2000 From: manyfeathers at hotmail.com (Joe Rogers) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 10:29:32 PDT Subject: Posting to the list Message-ID: I thank you for your attention re: Archeologia.com By no means am I suggesting that you (or someone in your department) should be pre-approving each and every post. I'm not crazy. Nor would I wish to curtail the freedom of speech of Archeologia.com--spcifically it's right to promote itself. However, I would point out that commercial activity should occur in the marketplace, of which I assume the nahuatl list is not a part. My only concern is that a merchant is trying to extend the market into an area specically set aside for (and by mutual agreement maintained as) an area in which scholarly discussion can occur. This company has violated that agreement. Their right to free speech has nothing with it. Freedom by its nature entails responsibility, both individual and institutional. Archeologia.com has used their freedom of speech irresponsibly. Anyhow, I have a feeling we agree with each other on the issue, more or less. I again thank you for your attention in this matter. The prevalence of commercialism in our society today is vast, and at least some areas of the internet (like my e-mail box) should be free of tertiary sector capitalism. Of course, I'm using free web-based e-mail, so to my chagrin, the end of this post you will see none other than a commercial. My apologies. Thank-you for all the work you've done in setting up and maintaining this list. I appreciate how much extra time & energy this must take. And I do enjoy the fruits of your labor. Joe Rogers _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From Huaxyacac at aol.com Mon Oct 16 19:11:10 2000 From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 15:11:10 EDT Subject: Posting to the list Message-ID: Joe, Fritz, et al., I recognize that this isn't really an appropriate thread for the list, so I'll happily let it die, but I do object a bit to the dichotomy between "marketplace" and "scholarly discussion." As the author of a website that attempts to provide the latter while also generating some income, I don't really think that we should draw a hard and fast line between the two. Do they need to be mutually exclusive? In this case, the relevance of the Archeologia.com missive to the subject matter of this list is questionable, but you can certainly make a good-faith argument in its favor. If we apply a strict commercial activity ban, does that mean that someone selling a Nahuatl workbook should not be allowed to advertise it here? I would hope not. Instead, I would argue that posts should be judged on their relevance to the subject of Nahuatl language and culture. Would it have been more acceptable if Archeologia.com had sent a more targeted letter, pointing out that their current catalog lists more than 500 books on the ancient Americas, including a couple on Nahuatl? What about if one individual wanted to sell their own library of of works on Nahuatl? I'm not suggesting that rampant commercialization of this list is something to be desired or even tolerated. But I personally would rather err on the generous side. Alec Christensen About Anthropology Guide http://anthropology.about.com From kirstey at theplay.com Mon Oct 16 08:23:23 2000 From: kirstey at theplay.com (kirstey at theplay.com) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 03:23:23 EST Subject: Your Free Casino Chips Message-ID: Congratulations! You have been selected by our promotions team to recieve Free Casino Chips at our brand new Big Players Casino. All you have to do is Play! Follow the link below. http://209.1.224.12/a82737/ or click here From robc at csufresno.edu Mon Oct 16 21:39:12 2000 From: robc at csufresno.edu (Robert G. Comegys) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:39:12 -0700 Subject: Posting to the list Message-ID: Dear Dr. Schwaller and Friends, I just now took a quick look at some of the extensive list of books for sale by archaeologia.com It looked good to me, and there was at least one I may buy today. Dr. Schwaller: I know it can be irritating to have someone pitch their wares on your time, BUT I have long ago learned to expect an advertisement of two in the back of professional journals, or a table with books or services for sale at the back of the room at professional gatherings. AND this might be an opportunity for you and all of us. I don't know what your list costs you or how you pay the associated expenses. Why not get a small fee for the list or a percentage off for the members of the list from archaeologia.com? And maybe see if we could get a discount from Porrua in Mexico City, or others as well. Certainly a collective opinion from the group could be appropriate; and certainly the last word is yours, Dr. Schwaller Regards to all, John Comegys John F. Schwaller wrote: > > Dear subscribers, > > I have taken some action to prevent the recurrence of the commercial > posting, nevertheless, given the current organization of the list these > things will happen. It is one of the costs of our freedom. This is not a > moderated list. Anyone can post to it, although I am under the impression > that it is a closed list insofar as posting is concerned. That means that > only subscribers can post. The alternative is to create a moderated list > where I, or someone who relieves me, would have to approve each and every > posting. I have not sought that privilege for the list, I do not > presume. For me one of the pleasures of having founded and "owned" the > list is the dynamic of the on-lline conversation. > > J. F. Schwaller > List Owner > > John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu > Associate Provost 406-243-4722 > The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 > http://www.umt.edu/provost/ From manyfeathers at hotmail.com Tue Oct 17 03:00:54 2000 From: manyfeathers at hotmail.com (Joe Rogers) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:00:54 PDT Subject: Posting to the list Message-ID: My apologies to all. I did not intend to send my reply to the entire list. I should have looked more closely at the sender before pressing "reply". While this is an interesting thread, it probably does not belong on the list. As as I said, it was an accident, and I do apologize. Nahautl, anyone? Joe _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From mhopkins at fas.harvard.edu Wed Oct 18 21:31:33 2000 From: mhopkins at fas.harvard.edu (Mary Hopkins) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 17:31:33 -0400 Subject: Nahuatlan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Can I ask the list for a piece of advice? I work in a library catalog department. Just got a piece with some Nicaraguan Nahuatl-Spanish dialect in it. Went to check the language code (a piece of the record not visible to users on most systems) and it informed me that the language was "Nahuatlan." This seems like a logical enough way of covering Nahua, Nahuatl, etc., but I don't think I'd seen it before. Furthermore it has replaced, rather than supplemented, the code that used to just say "Nahuatl." Perhaps I am inclined to be overly suspicious; I ought to be grateful that they are no longer calling it "Aztec." Do list members have any comments? Many thanks. MH From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Thu Oct 19 14:22:03 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 08:22:03 -0600 Subject: Nahuatlan? Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 20:11:56 -0600 (MDT) >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 21:12:09 -0500 >To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >From: "Ricardo J. Salvador" >Subject: Re: Nahuatlan? > >At 5:31 PM -0400 10/18/00, Mary Hopkins wrote: > > >Went to check the language code (a piece of the record not visible > >to users on most systems) and it informed me that the language was > >"Nahuatlan." This seems like a logical enough way of covering Nahua, > >Nahuatl, etc., but I don't think I'd seen it before. Furthermore it has > >replaced, rather than supplemented, the code that used to just say > >"Nahuatl." > >Mary, see: > > >(n=E4=B4wt=B4=B4ln) (KEY), group of languages of the Uto-Aztecan branch of > >the Aztec-Tanoan linguistic stock of North and Central America. A > >Nahuatlan language of great historical importance is Nahuatl, or > >Aztec. A descendant of the now extinct Aztec, the language of the > >ancient Aztec empire, Nahuatl is spoken today by approximately 1.5 > >million people, mainly in Mexico. Aztec is thought to have reached 5 > >million people in an area extending from Mexico to Panama. The > >Nahuatlan group also includes a number of other living languages, > >such as Pipil and Pochutla, and extinct tongues, among them Toltec, > >Chichimec, and Nahuatlato. See Native American languages. > >Reference: Columbia Encyclopedia (6th Ed.) >http://www.bartleby.com/65/na/Nahuatla.html >-- > >Ricardo J. Salvador E-mail: mailto:salvador at iastate.edu >1126 Agronomy Hall Voice: 515.294.9595 >Iowa State University Fax: 515.294.8146 >Ames IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Oct 20 00:05:47 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:05:47 -0400 Subject: Nahuatlan? Message-ID: >> >(n=E4=B4wt=B4=B4ln) (KEY), group of languages of the Uto-Aztecan branch of >> >the Aztec-Tanoan linguistic stock of North and Central America. A >> >Nahuatlan language of great historical importance is Nahuatl, or >> >Aztec. A descendant of the now extinct Aztec, the language of the >> >ancient Aztec empire, Nahuatl is spoken today by approximately 1.5 >> >million people, mainly in Mexico. Aztec is thought to have reached 5 >> >million people in an area extending from Mexico to Panama. The >> >Nahuatlan group also includes a number of other living languages, >> >such as Pipil and Pochutla, and extinct tongues, among them Toltec, >> >Chichimec, and Nahuatlato. See Native American languages. I find this peculiar. I don't think anyone can say for sure what language family Toltec belonged to. As for Chichimec, when applied to a language, it refers to a member of the Oto-Pamean subgroup of the Otomanguean family. The word "Nahuatlato," generally refers to an interpreter, specifically one who speaks Nahuatl and some other language, but it was sometimes used by Nahuatl speakers to refer to interpreters between ANY two languages. I think what was intended was "Nahuatlatolli" which is the Nahuatl term for 'clear, intelligible speech.' That's a description rather than a name, but then again, so are many words used as language names. The most up-to-date and authoritative reference book available is Lyle Campbell's American Indian Languages: The Historical Linguistics of Native America. Oxford University Press, 1997. According to Campbell's language classification, the Nahuatlan (also called Nahuan or Aztecan) subgroup of the Uto-Aztecan language family contains the following languages: Pochutec (extinct since early in the 20th century), Pipil, and the various regional dialects of Nahuatl. Campbell writes: "The Aztec-Tanoan hypothesis, which attempts to link Uto-Aztecan and Kiowa-Tanoan in a remote genetic relationship, has been widely accepted and is frequently repeated in the literature as though it were unproblematical, although a number of specialists have persistently expressed their doubts." (p. 269) After reviewing the evidence, he concludes, "My general conclusion concerning the Aztec-Tanoan hypothesis is that the evidence presented in its favor so far falls far short of what would be necessary to warrant a positive feeling toward the hypothesis." (p. 273) Fran From War14655 at aol.com Fri Oct 20 13:56:13 2000 From: War14655 at aol.com (War14655 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 09:56:13 EDT Subject: Nahuatlan? Message-ID: look at u, labeling the so-called ancient "aztec" language or so-called classical language as "extinct." I think it's high-time that you rid yourself of that practice. Even Joe Campbell admonishes that, "Scholars of Nahuatl are accustomed to talk about 'classical Nahuatl' and what is spoken today; yet the people who speak Nahuatl today are the desecndants of the people who spoke it five centuries ago. The practice of isolating classical Nahuatl is rather like calling the English of Shakespeare's time "Classical English" while referring to English as it is spoken today in various places around the world as "the modern dialects." It is not technically wrong, but if we don't do it for English, we should be wary of doing so for Nahuatl"(Campbell and Karttunen p2). If this is a listserve of so-called scholars and a lowly undergrad student, like me, can see the error in this kind of mislabeling, then surely u guys see it too... From sswanson at asu.edu Fri Oct 20 15:20:47 2000 From: sswanson at asu.edu (Steve Swanson) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 08:20:47 -0700 Subject: Nahuatlan? Message-ID: Dear undergraduate student, I think that a careful review of the postings regarding "nahuatlan" will show that the characterizations and labels to which you refer were being cited from a library's index system and its entry on Nahuatl related languages. In that original email, it was pointed out that the labels used for those languages were an improvement over just calling them all "Aztec" languages, but the query was seeking advice from Nahuatl scholars and interested parties on this list as to the appropriateness of "Nahuatlan". As your citation of Campbell and Karttunen indicate, we need to be conscious of our labels, and the spirit in which you write is appreciated. However, since it appears that nobody in this thread, who you label "so-called scholars" from your position of anonymity, actually used those labels, your post seems somewhat misdirected. Addressing the spirit of your post, I agree that there are some negative implications for the use of the term "classic" or "classical" Nahuatl, as there are for a term like "classic" or "classical" Greek. My reading of these terms is that the "climax" of the civilization that used the language has passed, and the language spoken during that cultural "climax" is better, or more pure, or more relevant than modern forms of the language. Does anyone on this list know how native speakers of Greek or Nahuatl (or any other language descended from a "classical" language) perceive or refer to older forms of their language? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 6:56 AM Subject: Re: Nahuatlan? look at u, labeling the so-called ancient "aztec" language or so-called classical language as "extinct." I think it's high-time that you rid yourself of that practice. Even Joe Campbell admonishes that, "Scholars of Nahuatl are accustomed to talk about 'classical Nahuatl' and what is spoken today; yet the people who speak Nahuatl today are the desecndants of the people who spoke it five centuries ago. The practice of isolating classical Nahuatl is rather like calling the English of Shakespeare's time "Classical English" while referring to English as it is spoken today in various places around the world as "the modern dialects." It is not technically wrong, but if we don't do it for English, we should be wary of doing so for Nahuatl"(Campbell and Karttunen p2). If this is a listserve of so-called scholars and a lowly undergrad student, like me, can see the error in this kind of mislabeling, then surely u guys see it too... From dfrye at umich.edu Fri Oct 20 15:41:09 2000 From: dfrye at umich.edu (David L. Frye) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:41:09 -0400 Subject: Nahuatlan? In-Reply-To: <200010192349.TAA20978@nantucket.net> Message-ID: It might be worth adding that the term "Nahuatlan" is an invention of a linguist (or rather an linguistic anthropologist, Daniel Brinton, according to the encyclopedia...). The intended implication is "the greater Nahuatl-like family" -- so don't try to gloss it as nuahua + tlan or some such. (Also, as should have been obvious, the reference to 'extinct Aztec' was a quote from some dictionary, not a direct posting by anyone on the list.) David Frye From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Fri Oct 20 16:37:06 2000 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:37:06 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl Summer Language Institute IV at Yale University Message-ID: Nahuatl Summer Language Institute IV at Yale University Summer 2001 Jonathan D. Amith The Nahuatl Summer Language Institute at Yale University, now entering its fourth year, is part of a comprehensive project to provide learning and research tools in this language and to bring together experts in the field of Nahuatl language and culture. In addition to discussing the institute's progress to date and its plans for the immediate future, this short report will hopefully encourage scholars who have worked on Nahuatl to contact the institute and perhaps assist in its development. We welcome participation by anyone interested in helping us meet the goals of advancing Nahuatl studies. One of the primary objectives of the institute is to create a learning environment that will meet the needs of a wide range of students-including historians, art historians, anthropologists, linguists, and heritage language speakers. Besides receiving intensive instruction in modern Nahuatl (15-20 hrs/week for 8 weeks), students have attended invited lectures, workshops, and one-week supplementary seminars by leading Nahuatl scholars from a variety of disciplines. Last year James Lockhart (emeritus, UCLA) conducted the one-week seminar on colonial Nahuatl; shorter invited lectures were presented by Louise Burkhart (SUNY, Albany), Willard Gingerich (St. John's), and Alan Sandstrom (Indiana University-Purdue University, Fort Wayne). This coming summer the basic introductory course will again by taught by Jonathan Amith. The basic text for the course-a reference/pedagogical grammar and lexicon of the modern dialect spoken in Ameyaltepec, Guerrero-is organized to facilitate comparison with colonial Nahuatl and to provide a basic understanding of Nahuatl morphology and syntax that will be of utility to those studying any variant of Nahuatl. This coming summer will also be marked by the completion of the first draft of an 10,000-entry lexicon of the Nahuatl spoken in Ameyaltepec, Guerrero. This will be used in the course and provide a significant addition to the colonial sources already available. It will also provide a lexical base for working with the modern grammar and learning exercises. The dictionary will be placed online in the Fall of 2001 by the Linguistic Data Consortium of the University of Pennsylvania. Guest lectures and workshops for the 2001 introductory course will be offered by Louise Burkhart, Willard Gingerich, and John Justeson (State University of New York, Albany). Michel Launey will give the special one-week invited lecture. Given the interest shown for the first three institutes (9 students in 1998, 13 in 1999, and 7 in 2000), we are excited to announce that for 2002 we are now planning to offer, with funding from the Center for Latin American Studies of the University of Chicago, a five- or six-week institute for advanced instruction in Nahuatl. This unique course will comprise a series of three workshops, each conducted by a leading expert in Nahuatl. To date James Lockhart and Michel Launey have agreed to participate; each will be in charge of intensive instruction for two weeks. A third individual will subsequently be invited to complete the team. Enrollment will be open to anyone who has completed the introductory course during the first four years or to scholars who can demonstrate a proficiency in Nahuatl equivalent to one year of study. The goal of this new course is to provide, for the first time we are aware of, advanced instruction in Nahuatl, thus enabling students to attain a high level of proficiency in this language through direct intensive work with experts in the field. Details of this workshop will be announced in Fall 2001, both in print and on the website (http://www.yale.edu/Nahuatl). The desire to offer this advanced course represents a commitment of the institute to provide tools for training the next generation of Nahuatl scholars. The development of an electronic database of Nahuatl and its placement online represents another goal of the Nahuatl institute: to develop and make universally available a set of research and pedagogical tools for research on and learning about Nahuatl. Mark Liberman and Steven Bird of the Linguistic Data Consortium at the University of Pennsylvania have provided invaluable assistance in developing a prototype search engine for a web-based Nahuatl lexicon of Ameyaltepec (at http//www.ldc.upenn/hyperlex) that will eventually comprise over 10,000 entries (Nahuatl to Spanish and English). It will be linked to an electronic version of the reference/pedagogical grammar in an effort to solve a major problem for instructional material in less commonly taught languages: how to provide the grammatical and pedagogical context for a dictionary while furnishing the appropriate lexical base for students to implement the language skills they learn through a grammar. Interactive exercises will accompany each lesson, offering the possibility of learning Nahuatl at a distance (a preliminary version of this effort can be viewed at http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl) The U.S. Department of Education, through its International Research and Studies Program, has granted two years of support to develop these materials for classroom and research use as part of a Nahuatl Learning Environment. The final product will include a lexicon, grammar, exercises, drawings and photographs, and sound files. Additional support for the Nahuatl Summer Language Institute and the Nahuatl Learning Environment has been provided by Yale University, the Latin American Studies Consortium of New England, and the University of Chicago Center for Latin American Studies through funding from the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation and the U.S. Department of Education. For more information, including application materials to attend the 2001 intensive summer institute, please contact the coordinator of the institute at jonathan.amith at yale.edu (503/831-3151) or visit the institute website at http://www.yale.edu/nahuatl. Scholars who have worked on Nahuatl and wish to discuss their possible participation in future institutes or in jointly developing resource materials for research on and teaching of Nahuatl are cordially invited to contact the institute or the Council on Latin American Studies at Yale (latin.america at yale.edu or 203/432-3420). Jonathan D Amith 1460 James Howe Rd Dallas, OR 97338 Tel. 503/831-3151 From vogelm01 at student.ucr.edu Fri Oct 20 16:40:30 2000 From: vogelm01 at student.ucr.edu (Matthew Vogel) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 09:40:30 -0700 Subject: Nahuatlan? In-Reply-To: <001d01c03aa9$52b12900$442678cc@mshome.net> Message-ID: Man Steve, that was a bit harsh... then again, so was the undergrad. You kids behave. On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Steve Swanson wrote: > Dear undergraduate student, > > I think that a careful review of the postings regarding "nahuatlan" will > show that the characterizations and labels to which you refer were > being cited from a library's index system and its entry on Nahuatl > related languages. In that original email, it was pointed out that the > labels used for those languages were an improvement over just calling > them all "Aztec" languages, but the query was seeking advice from > Nahuatl scholars and interested parties on this list as to the > appropriateness > of "Nahuatlan". As your citation of Campbell and Karttunen indicate, > we need to be conscious of our labels, and the spirit in which you write > is appreciated. However, since it appears that nobody in this thread, > who you label "so-called scholars" from your position of anonymity, > actually used those labels, your post seems somewhat misdirected. > > Addressing the spirit of your post, I agree that there are some > negative implications for the use of the term "classic" or "classical" > Nahuatl, as there are for a term like "classic" or "classical" Greek. > My reading of these terms is that the "climax" of the civilization > that used the language has passed, and the language spoken during > that cultural "climax" is better, or more pure, or more relevant than > modern forms of the language. Does anyone on this list know how > native speakers of Greek or Nahuatl (or any other language descended > from a "classical" language) perceive or refer to older forms of their > language? > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 6:56 AM > Subject: Re: Nahuatlan? > > > look at u, labeling the so-called ancient "aztec" language or so-called > classical language as "extinct." I think it's high-time that you rid > yourself of that practice. Even Joe Campbell admonishes that, "Scholars of > Nahuatl are accustomed to talk about 'classical Nahuatl' and what is spoken > today; yet the people who speak Nahuatl today are the desecndants of the > people who spoke it five centuries ago. The practice of isolating classical > Nahuatl is rather like calling the English of Shakespeare's time "Classical > English" while referring to English as it is spoken today in various places > around the world as "the modern dialects." It is not technically wrong, but > if we don't do it for English, we should be wary of doing so for > Nahuatl"(Campbell and Karttunen p2). If this is a listserve of so-called > scholars and a lowly undergrad student, like me, can see the error in this > kind of mislabeling, then surely u guys see it too... > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Oct 20 18:22:55 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 13:22:55 -0500 Subject: Nahuatlan? In-Reply-To: <77.b10f363.2721a8fd@aol.com> Message-ID: what is u? On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 War14655 at aol.com wrote: > look at u, labeling the so-called ancient "aztec" language or so-called > classical language as "extinct." I think it's high-time that you rid > yourself of that practice. Even Joe Campbell admonishes that, "Scholars of > Nahuatl are accustomed to talk about 'classical Nahuatl' and what is spoken > today; yet the people who speak Nahuatl today are the desecndants of the > people who spoke it five centuries ago. The practice of isolating classical > Nahuatl is rather like calling the English of Shakespeare's time "Classical > English" while referring to English as it is spoken today in various places > around the world as "the modern dialects." It is not technically wrong, but > if we don't do it for English, we should be wary of doing so for > Nahuatl"(Campbell and Karttunen p2). If this is a listserve of so-called > scholars and a lowly undergrad student, like me, can see the error in this > kind of mislabeling, then surely u guys see it too... > From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Fri Oct 20 18:58:33 2000 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:58:33 -0700 Subject: Nahuatlan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Michael Mccafferty wrote: |what is u? u=you He was saving bandwidth, and your query (and this message) now wastes it. (Sigh.) From War14655 at aol.com Sat Oct 21 00:14:32 2000 From: War14655 at aol.com (War14655 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 20:14:32 EDT Subject: Nahuatlan? Message-ID: "u" is a variation of the word "you" from "classical english", LOL, got u!!!!!!! From War14655 at aol.com Sat Oct 21 00:19:37 2000 From: War14655 at aol.com (War14655 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 20:19:37 EDT Subject: Nahuatlan? Message-ID: In the question of how speakers of "classsical" languages, why dont u ask them yourself Steve? From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Oct 22 15:43:04 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:43:04 -0500 Subject: (no subject) (fwd) Message-ID: Fritz, I'd like to report this harrassing message that came as a result of my asking War14655 at aol.com about the meaning of "u" in his recent harangue to the nahuat-l. Just for the record. Michael ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 13:43:58 EDT From: War14655 at aol.com To: mmccaffe at indiana.edu Subject: (no subject) if u understood what ti means then why r u being an asshole urself about it? Go piss off and quit sending me harrassing emails or I'll report u u arrogant dickhead!!!!!! ---------------------- ti=it From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Oct 22 15:51:51 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:51:51 -0500 Subject: (no subject) (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: sorry, Fritz, that was just supposed to go to you. oops. Michael From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Oct 22 15:53:38 2000 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:53:38 -0500 Subject: (no subject) (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My sincere apologies to the list for that recent message from me. It was supposed to go to Fritz specifically but got sent to the entire list. Michael From mosquerd at union.edu Mon Oct 23 03:28:55 2000 From: mosquerd at union.edu (Daniel Mosquera) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 23:28:55 -0400 Subject: Call For Papers: McNeil Center for Early American Studies (fwd) Message-ID: I have received this call for papers from a friend. Since I have not seen any reference to this conference in the list, I thought it would be a good idea to spread the word. DM >Subject: Call For Papers: McNeil Center for Early American Studies (fwd) >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:44:15 -0600 > >Call For Papers >McNeil Center for Early American Studies: >New World Orders: >Violence, Sanction, and Authority in the Early Modern Americas, 1500-1825 > > The McNeil Center for Early American Studies (www.mceas.org) >invites paper proposals for a conference entitled "New World Orders: >Violence, Sanction, and Authority in the Early Modern Americas, 1500-1825," >to be held in Philadelphia on October 19-20, 2001. This conference will >explore the wide variety of extralegal means by which social order was >maintained in the early Americas, with a particular emphasis on how >extralegal sanctions were defined and used; how extralegal sanctions >related to legal forms of maintaining order; and how these patterns of >sanction, embedded within other forms of colonialism and culture, created >cultural, legal, social, or imperial "spaces" in the Americas. > The organizers have three interrelated aims. The first is to >rethink the assumption, still implicit in many accounts of American >colonization, that European discourses of law and authority operated as the >dominant cultural authority in the early Americas. By calling this >assumption into question, this conference may help scholars begin to see >more clearly the relationship of "law" as a cultural form to other domains >of social and cultural life. The second aim is to interrogate the >relationship between various forms of authority and the construction of >"space" in the early Americas. In essence, this conference will explore the >ways in which spaces were constructed through assertions of sovereign >authority over those spaces, whether legally, politically, or religiously. >In other words, this conference aims to move beyond Western notions of >legal sovereignty and to see the ways in which attempts to create colonial >centers of power through sanctions of various kinds were inextricably >linked to the creation of imperial boundaries, and vice versa. Third, the >organizers hope to explore these questions in a way that connects >historiographies of British, Spanish, French, Dutch and Portuguese >colonization to the history of the Atlantic world as a whole. > Topics may include (but are not limited to) explorations of the >construction of sacred, gendered, and racialized spaces in everyday life; >the role played by material culture and the built environment in defining >colonial authority; the relationships between legal and extralegal >discourse in the constitution of colonial power; patterns of violence, >sanction, and war in colonial borderlands; notions of colonial space and >sovereignty in theory and practice; or the evolution and hybridization of >European, African, or Indian modes of maintaining order in creole American >settlements. The conference organizers encourage scholars to interpret the >conference themes broadly in crafting their proposals. > The organizers invite proposals from scholars working in all >disciplines . Proposals should include a brief c.v. and a three-to-five >page prospectus explaining the substance of the proposed paper, the sources >to be used, and the topic's relationship to the conference themes. Those >invited to participate in the conference will be asked to submit papers of >approximately 30 pages in length by August 15, 2001 for pre-circulation to >conference attendees. A steering committee composed of Matthew Restall >(Pennsylvania State University), Thomas Humphrey (Cleveland State >University), and John Smolenski (University of Pennsylvania) will screen >proposals and arrange sessions and commentators. Direct questions to >smolensk at sas.upenn.edu or tom.humphrey at csuohio.edu. Send three copies of >the proposal to: New World Orders Conference, MCEAS, 3619 Locust Walk, >Philadelphia, PA 19104-6213. Proposals must be post marked by December 1, >2000. -- Daniel O. Mosquera Assistant Professor of Spanish Modern Languages & Literature Union College Schenectady, NY 12308 Tel: (518) 388-6415 Fax: (518) 388-6462 http://www1.union.edu/~mosquerd -- "If we could see ourselves as others see us, we would vanish on the spot" -- E. M. Cioran From fvaldes at omega.itlaguna.edu.mx Tue Oct 24 14:13:43 2000 From: fvaldes at omega.itlaguna.edu.mx (Francisco Valdes) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 08:13:43 -0600 Subject: "e" termination In-Reply-To: <20001024025129870.AAA553@estelecom01.saltel.com@laptop> Message-ID: Last Sunday I watched a badly edited TV program in Canal Once on Nahuatl. A historian, whose name I did not catch said, that many features of Nahuatl are present in Mexican Castellano. He offered as an example the interjections ending in an "e", for example: "orale!", "andale!", "dale!", "pegale!", etc. If there was an explanation for this assertion it was edited out. Can any of you offer a theory on how the "e" ending comes from Nahuatl? Saludos, Francisco Valdes From brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu Tue Oct 24 14:19:03 2000 From: brokawg at mail.lafayette.edu (Galen Brokaw) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 10:19:03 -0400 Subject: "e" termination Message-ID: There are words used in Spanish (especially Mexican Spanish) that end in e and derive from Nahuatl words that end in "tl". Words like "aguacate," "papalote," "coyote," etc. Maybe this is where he got the idea. I don't see the relationship, though, to phrases like "andale," "dale," "pegale," etc. Galen Francisco Valdes wrote: > Last Sunday I watched a badly edited TV program in Canal Once on Nahuatl. > A historian, whose name I did not catch said, that many features of Nahuatl > are present in Mexican Castellano. He offered as an example the > interjections ending in an "e", for example: "orale!", "andale!", "dale!", > "pegale!", etc. > If there was an explanation for this assertion it was edited out. > Can any of you offer a theory on how the "e" ending comes from Nahuatl? > Saludos, > Francisco Valdes From karttu at nantucket.net Tue Oct 24 14:20:34 2000 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 10:20:34 -0400 Subject: "e" termination Message-ID: Looks like the worst sort of folk etymology to me. The "e" in these words belongs to the Spanish grammatical particle/enclitic le. The Nahuatl (male) vocative form used in addressing people (not in making exclamations) ends in the stressed suffix -e. These things have neither similar meaning nor similar grammatical function. Fran ---------- >From: Francisco Valdes >To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >Subject: "e" termination >Date: Tue, Oct 24, 2000, 10:13 AM > > Last Sunday I watched a badly edited TV program in Canal Once on Nahuatl. > A historian, whose name I did not catch said, that many features of Nahuatl > are present in Mexican Castellano. He offered as an example the > interjections ending in an "e", for example: "orale!", "andale!", "dale!", > "pegale!", etc. > If there was an explanation for this assertion it was edited out. > Can any of you offer a theory on how the "e" ending comes from Nahuatl? > Saludos, > Francisco Valdes > From heatherhess at hotmail.com Tue Oct 24 19:33:33 2000 From: heatherhess at hotmail.com (Heather Hess) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 19:33:33 GMT Subject: (no subject) (fwd) Message-ID: unbelievable! there seems to be nothing sacred! Yolohtzin >From: Michael Mccafferty >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >Subject: (no subject) (fwd) >Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:43:04 -0500 (EST) > > >Fritz, >I'd like to report this harrassing message that came as a result of my >asking War14655 at aol.com about the meaning of "u" in his recent harangue to >the nahuat-l. >Just for the record. > >Michael > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 13:43:58 EDT >From: War14655 at aol.com >To: mmccaffe at indiana.edu >Subject: (no subject) > >if u understood what ti means then why r u being an asshole urself about >it? >Go piss off and quit sending me harrassing emails or I'll report u u >arrogant >dickhead!!!!!! > > > >---------------------- >ti=it > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Tue Oct 24 22:30:01 2000 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 15:30:01 -0700 Subject: (no subject) (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, Heather Hess wrote: |unbelievable! there seems to be nothing sacred! | |Yolohtzin Now, *that* would make a clever sentence somehow rendered into Nahuatl. :) (Incredibile, quod nihil esse sacrum videtur.)