From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Mon Feb 12 22:35:57 2001 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:35:57 -0700 Subject: linguaffix Message-ID: >From: petek kurtboke [mailto:linguaffix at yahoo.com] >Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 10:40 AM >Subject: linguaffix > >Dear Colleagues, > >You might remember from my previous postings that I >have a corpus of Turkish and study how agglutination >works on the basis of corpus information. > >I'm now starting a new e-group and the address is: > > > >My aim is to create a platform for those who work on >agglutinative languages from a corpus perspective (a >rare phenomenon!). You can send messages to > if you do similar work. > >Please pass on this message to colleagues and students >who might be interested. > >With thanks and best wishes >Petek > > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 >a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From davius_sanctex at terra.es Sat Feb 17 00:13:12 2001 From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 01:13:12 +0100 Subject: Pidiginization in nawatl ? Message-ID: In a personal conversation with a member of this group, we wondered that nahuatl can express so many terms with a very reducted set of radical items. For example for terms like "moustache", "neighbour", "ankle" are expressed by more basic items: 'lip' + 'hair' = 'moustache' 'house' + 'near' + = 'neighbour' 'leg' + 'neck' = 'ankle' In fact I've heard the number of radicals used is only around 1000!!! This is a prototypical situation in PIDGINS and CREOLES, and we think that it is possible nawatl undergoed(?) a period of pidginization when a considerable number of yuto-aztecan radicals becomed lost and therefore they were replaced by compounds like (1), (2) and (3). What do you think? Do you consider reasonable this hypothesis about diachronic history of nawatl? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Feb 17 19:58:55 2001 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:58:55 -0500 Subject: Pidiginization in nawatl ? In-Reply-To: <002501c09876$6b694d80$a113523e@pc> Message-ID: David, I wish I knew more about 1) pidgins and creoles and 2) the Uto-Aztecan language and its history because I think that a discussion of your point (i.e., that a restricted morpheme set, together with the necessary heavy use of compounding, is evidence that a language probably underwent pidginization sometime in its history) [pardon the long interpolation] would require input from people knowledgable in both of the above areas. Having declared my ignorance, I can give you my unenlightened reaction to the inference that you make. Your inference makes the assumption that the "natural" organization of a language involves a large lexicon of morphemes -- that it isn't "natural" for a language to be organized with a relatively small set of morphemes and to make use of compounding in order to cover its needs of semantic distinction. Although I *do* believe that there are some interesting observations about language universals, I also believe that human languages differ in unexpected ways, so I have a hard time thinking that "heavy compounding" languages are necessarily changed from a more "basic" language shape. German, English, and Eskimo are known to lean heavily on compounding to fill their needs for making semantic distinctions. With regard to German and English, should we infer that Proto-Indo-European had a larger morpheme lexicon and that German and English probably underwent pidginization? My personal inclination is that Nahuatl's compounding strategy is a natural development possible in any language. I'd be interested in hearing some evidence for its being strongly likely that it involved pidginization. I include below a list of some noun compounds from Molina's 16th century vocabulary efforts. Best regards, Joe p.s. Although Swadesh wrote about "los mil elementos...", I know of about 1300, so the number apparently exceeds that. On Sat, 17 Feb 2001, David Sanchez wrote: <> > > In fact I've heard the number of radicals used is only around 1000!!! > > This is a prototypical situation in PIDGINS and CREOLES, and we think > that it is possible nawatl undergoed(?) a period of pidginization when a > considerable number of yuto-aztecan radicals becomed lost and therefore > they were replaced by compounds like (1), (2) and (3). > > What do you think? Do you consider reasonable this hypothesis about > diachronic history of nawatl? > Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 1 a:tl a:calli canoe a:calyacatl prow of a ship a:coatl water snake a:comitl large earthen water jar a:huictli oar a:milli irrigated land a:octli liquor made with honey and water a:ohtli water conduit a:poctli water vapor a:tecomatl gourd for drinking water a:tentli bank of a river a:tlacatl sailor a:tocatl water spider a:xictli whirlpool a:xixcalli latrine a:xixcomitl chamberpot a:xixtecomatl bladder a:caxitl water basin ahuictli oar altepe:milli community land altepetlalli community lands atezcatl pool of water, or a water gauge atlalli irrigated land axixcalli latrine axixcomitl chamberpot chila:tl chile pepper water michacaxitl fishtank necua:tl mixture of water and honey nexa:tl lye tepe:a:tl mountain water tlalatl bog xocha:tl rose water zoquia:tl mud acatl acamahpilli rod acapetlatl reed mat totolacatl quill totolacatecomatl inkwell totolacatl quill or feather for writing ahcolli ahcolchimalli shoulder bone ahcoltzontli hair on the shoulder amatl ama:calli bookstore ama:calli cone-shaped paper cap amatzoncalli paper helmet (cone) cuicaamatl songbook tepozamatl metal foil tocaamatl registry of names tonalamatl calendar Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 2 amoxtli amoxcalli bookstore amoxtentli margin of a book amoxtocaitl title of a book apaztli cuauhapaztli wooden vessel teapaztli stone basin tepozapaztli copper caldron or basin atolli yacaatolli mucous yacatolli mucous cactli cachuapalli sole or form of a shoe cactlilli shoemaker's dye cuauhcactli wooden sandal ehuacactli rawhide shoe tilmahcactli cloth slipper calli a:calli canoe a:calyacatl prow of a ship a:xixcalli latrine ama:calli bookstore ama:calli cone-shaped paper cap amatzoncalli paper helmet (cone) amoxcalli bookstore axixcalli latrine calcuaitl roof of a house calcuichtli soot callalli ground that is next to a house calmilli land that is next to the house calnacaztli corner of a house calocuilin silk cocoon calohtli road that goes to a house cuauhcalli large wooden cage cuitlacalli latrine huapalcalli house or hut made of boards huilocalli pigeonhouse mazacalli stable moyocalli mosquito net ocopetlacalli pine box omicalli ossuary or place to put bones pahcalli drugstore petlacalli reed chest petlacalmecahuehuetl spinet, stringed instrument with keys pitzocalli pigsty tecalli stone house tenexcalli lime oven teocalli church teocaltototl sparrow teotlatquicalli sacristy tepozpetlacalli iron or copper box Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 3 tlacualcalli pantry tlecalli chimney tochcalli rabbit burrow totolcalli henhouse tzoncalli wig yaocalli fortress capolin capuloctli cherry wine caxitl a:caxitl water basin chilmolcaxitl dish for chile pepper stew michacaxitl fishtank omicaxitl bone dish tecaxitli stone basin tepozcaxitl copper pan tepoztlecaxitl metal incense burner tlecaxitl clay incense burner tototecaxtli birds' nest chimalli tepochimalli shield chiquihuitl cuauhchiquihuitl wooden basket elchiquihuitl ribcage totochiquihuitl birds' nest zoyachiquihuitl basket made of palm leaves cihuatl cihuacahuallo mare cihuamontli daughter-in-law cihuatlacamichin sea siren, mermaid cihuatlacohtli woman slave cihuatotolin hen tlacatecolocihuatl diabolical woman tlahtocacihuapilli princess or great lady coatl a:coatl water snake coahuitzmecatl brambleberry coamichin eel coatetl snake egg coatlancapulin blackberry fruit coatlantli blackberry bush or eyetooth coatlanxocotl blackberry fruit tlilcoatl black snake comitl a:comitl large earthen water jar a:xixcomitl chamberpot axixcomitl chamberpot contlilli soot from pots micomitl quiver for arrows tlecomitl crucible for melting gold Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 4 xocouinocomitl vinegar pot conetl axnoconetl young donkey canauhconetl small duck huiloconetl young pigeon ichcaconetl lamb mazaconetl fawn tochconetl young rabbit totoconetl young bird totolconetl chick coyotl tlalcoyotl jackal which hides underground and digs cozcatl xochicozcatl garland of flowers cuahuitl capulcuahuitl cherry tree cuacuahuitl animal's horn cuauhapaztli wooden vessel cuauhcactli wooden sandal cuauhcalli large wooden cage cuauhchiquihuitl wooden basket cuauhhuitztli kind of thorn bush cuauhocuilin worm which gnaws wood cuauhtexolotl pestle of a mortar cuauhxicalli wooden vessel huitzcuahuitl thorny tree ococuahuitl pine tree tlalcuahuitl rod for measuring fields tlecuahuitl wooden instrument for making fire xococuahuitl fruit tree cuaitl calcuaitl roof of a house cuacuahuitl animal's horn cuamatlatl hairnet cuametlapil man with a large head cuanacatl cock's comb cuateyollotl crown of the head cuatzontli hair of the head cuaxicalli skull of the head cuayollohtli crown of the head ixcuaitl forehead ixcuatzontli hair on the forehead tlancuaxicalli knee bone cuitlatl cuitlacalli latrine cuitlaxcolli intestines nacazcuitlatl ear wax teocuitlatl gold teocuitlatlalli gold dust teocuitlaxiquipilli money bag Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 5 tilmahcuitlapilli tail of a piece of clothing totolcuitlatl chicken dung tozcacuitlatl phlegm tozcayacacuitlatl phlegm tzocuitlatl sweat of the body xicohcuitlaocotl wax candle xicohcuitlatl wax yacacuitlatl mucous ehuatl ehuacactli rawhide shoe ehuahuehuetl tambourine ehuatilmahtli leather garment ehuaxiquipilli leather bag nochehuatl prickly pear peeling totolteehuatl membrane of an egg huapalli cachuapalli sole or form of a shoe huapalcalli house or hut made of boards tehuapalli large wide tombstone or slab huictli a:huictli oar ahuictli oar tepozhuictli iron hoe huilotl huiloconetl young pigeon oquichhuilotl male dove huipilli ichcahuipilli padded armor for battle tepozhuipilli coat of mail tepozmatlahuipilli coat of mail tlachuipilli jacket huitztli coahuitzmecatl brambleberry cuauhhuitztli kind of thorn bush huitzcuahuitl thorny tree huitzomitl needle for sewing huitzquilitl cardoon, an edible plant huitzquiltzontecomatl artichoke tototenhuitztli beak of a bird ichcatl ichcaconetl lamb ichcahuipilli padded armor for battle ichpochtli ichpochtotolin pullet which is beginning to lay eggs icnotl icnotlacatl orphan or needy person Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 6 icpatl icpatetl ball of thread icxitl icxiohtli footpath xocoicxitl stem of a piece of fruit ixtli ixcuaitl forehead ixcuatzontli hair on the forehead ixtezcatl spectacles iztatl iztatetl cake of salt iztatlacatl salt maker iztaxalli grain of salt maitl acamahpilli rod mahpilli finger matemecatl bracelet matzotzopaztli forearm tepoztlemaitl fire shovel tlalmaitl laborer or worker tlemaitl clay scoop for carrying fire xocomecamaitl vineshoot or tendril matlatl cuamatlatl hairnet matlaxiquipilli bag made of net tepozmatlahuipilli coat of mail totomatlatl net for hunting birds mazatl mazacalli stable mazaconetl fawn tlacamazatl bestial man mecatl cahuallomecatl halter cahuallotemmecatl horse's halter coahuitzmecatl brambleberry matemecatl bracelet mecahuehuetl guitar petlacalmecahuehuetl spinet, stringed instrument with keys tlalhuamecatl guitar string tlalmecatl cord for measuring fields xocomecamaitl vineshoot or tendril xocomecatl grapevine xocomecayacatzontli tendril of a vineshoot xocomecayollotl grape zacamecatl rope made of grass Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 7 metl meneuctli raw maguey cactus nectar meyollohtli heart of the century cactus michin cihuatlacamichin sea siren, mermaid coamichin eel michacaxitl fishtank michomitl fish bone michtetl fish egg tlacamichin big fish, catfish milli a:milli irrigated land altepe:milli community land calmilli land that is next to the house milchilli chile pepper that grows in the fields millacatl worker or peasant mitl micomitl quiver for arrows mixiquipilli quiver for arrows tencualacmitl poisoned arrow moyotl moyocalli mosquito net tlemoyonextli dead spark tlemoyotl spark nacatl cuanacatl cock's comb tlacanacatl human flesh nacaztli calnacaztli corner of a house nacazcuitlatl ear wax tenacaztli stone carved for the corner of a wall neuctli meneuctli raw maguey cactus nectar necua:tl mixture of water and honey xochinecuhtli honey that grows inside the flower nextli nexa:tl lye nextlexochtli embers tenexcalli lime oven tenextli lime tenezoquitl mortar of lime and sand tlemoyonextli dead spark ocotl ococentli pine cone ococenyollohtli pine seed ococuahuitl pine tree Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 8 ocopetlacalli pine box ocopilli pine faggot ocotlilli black stain from pine smoke ocotochtilmahtli cape made from martens' hides ocotochtli mountain cat or marten ocotzotetl pitch or tar ocotzotl pine resin xicohcuitlaocotl wax candle octli a:octli liquor made with honey and water capuloctli cherry wine nochoctli prickly pear wine xocooctli wine made from fruit ocuilin calocuilin silk cocoon cuauhocuilin worm which gnaws wood meocuilin maguey cactus worm tilmahocuilin clothes moth tlanocuilin caries or a worm that ruins teeth zacaocuilin grass worm ohtli a:ohtli water conduit calohtli road that goes to a house icxiohtli footpath omitl huitzomitl needle for sewing michomitl fish bone omicalli ossuary or place to put bones omicaxitl bone dish omixochitl lily tlanomitl ivory oquichtli oquichhuilotl male dove pahtli pahcalli drugstore petlatl acapetlatl reed mat ocopetlacalli pine box petlacalli reed chest petlacalmecahuehuetl spinet, stringed instrument with keys tepetlatl kind of porous rock tepozpetlacalli iron or copper box pilli acamahpilli rod cuametlapil man with a large head mahpilli finger metlapilli grinder for the metate ocopilli pine faggot Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 9 tilmahcuitlapilli tail of a piece of clothing tlahtocacihuapilli princess or great lady tlahtocapilli noble and generous gentleman xopilli toe quechtli cahualloquetzontli horse's mane quechtlalhuatl nerves of the neck quetzontli long hair on the back of the head quilitl huitzquilitl cardoon, an edible plant tecomatl a:tecomatl gourd for drinking water a:xixtecomatl bladder axixtecomatl bladder huitzquiltzontecomatl artichoke tliltecomatl inkwell totolacatecomatl inkwell tototlacualtecomatl gizzard of a bird tzontecomatl head xicaltecomatl vessel made of a gourd zoquitecomatl clay cup tentli a:tentli bank of a river amoxtentli margin of a book tencualacmitl poisoned arrow tentetl lip ornament tentzontli beard tilmahtentli edge of a piece of clothing tototenhuitztli beak of a bird tototentli beak of a bird tepetl altepe:milli community land altepetlalli community lands tepoztli tepochimalli shield tepozamatl metal foil tepozapaztli copper caldron or basin tepozcacalotl nippers, tongs tepozcaxitl copper pan tepozhuictli iron hoe tepozhuipilli coat of mail tepozmatlahuipilli coat of mail tepozpetlacalli iron or copper box tepoztlalli iron filings tepoztlecaxitl metal incense burner tepoztlemaitl fire shovel tzintepoztli hilt of a lance or staff Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 10 tetl amilotetl eggs of the white fish atetl testicle atexicolli sack of the testicles canauhtetl duck egg coatetl snake egg cuateyollotl crown of the head cuauhtexolotl pestle of a mortar eltepitztli shoulder blade icpatetl ball of thread iztatetl cake of salt matemecatl bracelet michtetl fish egg ocotzotetl pitch or tar teapaztli stone basin tecalli stone house tecaxitli stone basin tehuapalli large wide tombstone or slab temetztli lead (metal) tenacaztli stone carved for the corner of a wall tenexcalli lime oven tenextli lime tenezoquitl mortar of lime and sand tentetl lip ornament teotetl jet (kind of stone) tepetlatl kind of porous rock teteotl idol texalli sandy stone for grinding stones texocotl apple of the Indies tlaltetl clod of earth tliltetl paragraph mark, or a diacritic totolteehuatl membrane of an egg totoltemulli porridge made of eggs totoltetl egg tototecaxtli birds' nest tzintetl foundation of a wall xaltemalacatl stone for sharpening tools xaltetl pebble xocotetl very green fruit, and yet to ripen tezcatl atezcatl pool of water, or a water gauge ixtezcatl spectacles tilmahtli ehuatilmahtli leather garment ocotochtilmahtli cape made from martens' hides tilmahcactli cloth slipper tilmahcuitlapilli tail of a piece of clothing tilmahocuilin clothes moth tilmahtentli edge of a piece of clothing tlahtocatilmahtli royal or lordly clothing Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 11 tlacatl a:tlacatl sailor altepe:tlacatl townsperson atlacatl sailor cihuatlacamichin sea siren, mermaid icnotlacatl orphan or needy person iztatlacatl salt maker tlacahuilotl gray pigeon with a white neck tlacamazatl bestial man tlacamichin big fish, catfish tlacanacatl human flesh tlacatecolocihuatl diabolical woman tlacatecolotl devil tlacaxinachtli semen tlactli tlachuipilli jacket tlacualli tlacualcalli pantry tototlacualtecomatl gizzard of a bird tlahtoca tlahtocacihuapilli princess or great lady tlahtocaicpalli royal chair tlahtocapilli noble and generous gentleman tlahtocatilmahtli royal or lordly clothing tlahtocatlatquitl property of a king or noble tlalhuatl cotztlalhuatl nerves of the calf of the leg metztlalhuatl nerves of leg quechtlalhuatl nerves of the neck tlalhuamecatl guitar string tlalli altepetlalli community lands atlalli irrigated land teocuitlatlalli gold dust tepoztlalli iron filings tlalatl bog tlalcoyotl jackal which hides underground and digs tlalcuahuitl rod for measuring fields tlalmaitl laborer or worker tlalmecatl cord for measuring fields tlaloztotl underground or basement tlaltechalotl small animal like a squirrel tlaltetl clod of earth tlantli tlanocuilin caries or a worm that ruins teeth tlatquitl cahuallotlatquitl horse's harness and trappings chantlatquitl house furniture Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 12 obispotlatquitl bishop's clothing teotlatquicalli sacristy tlahtocatlatquitl property of a king or noble tletl nextlexochtli embers tepoztlecaxitl metal incense burner tepoztlemaitl fire shovel tlecalli chimney tlecaxitl clay incense burner tlecomitl crucible for melting gold tlecuahuitl wooden instrument for making fire tlemaitl clay scoop for carrying fire tlemoyonextli dead spark tlemoyotl spark tlexochtli redhot coal tlilli cactlilli shoemaker's dye comaltlilli soot from a griddle contlilli soot from pots ocotlilli black stain from pine smoke tlilazcatl black poisonous ant tlilcoatl black snake tlilhuauhtli wild black amaranth tliltecomatl inkwell tliltetl paragraph mark, or a diacritic tlilxochitl vanilla bean plant tocaitl amoxtocaitl title of a book tecuhtocaitl renown of lineage tocaamatl registry of names tocatl a:tocatl water spider tochtli ocotochtilmahtli cape made from martens' hides ocotochtli mountain cat or marten tochcalli rabbit burrow tochconetl young rabbit totolin cihuatotolin hen ichpochtotolin pullet which is beginning to lay eggs totolacatecomatl inkwell totolacatl quill or feather for writing totolcalli henhouse totolconetl chick totolcuitlatl chicken dung totolteehuatl membrane of an egg totoltemulli porridge made of eggs totoltetl egg Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 13 tototl chiltototl red-feathered bird quetzaltototl bird with rich green feathers teocaltototl sparrow totolacatl quill totochiquihuitl birds' nest totoconetl young bird totomatlatl net for hunting birds tototecaxtli birds' nest tototenhuitztli beak of a bird tototentli beak of a bird tototlacualtecomatl gizzard of a bird xochitototl kind of yellow bird tozcatl tozcacuitlatl phlegm tozcayacacuitlatl phlegm tzintli tzinicpalli small portable chair tzintamalli buttock tzintepoztli hilt of a lance or staff tzintetl foundation of a wall tzontli ahcoltzontli hair on the shoulder amatzoncalli paper helmet (cone) cahualloquetzontli horse's mane camatzontli cheek fuzz cuatzontli hair of the head huitzquiltzontecomatl artichoke ixcuatzontli hair on the forehead metzontli hairs of the leg quetzontli long hair on the back of the head tentzontli beard tzoncalli wig tzonicpalli pillow or something for the headrest tzontecomatl head xocomecayacatzontli tendril of a vineshoot yacatzontli hair of the nose xalli axalli kind of sand used to cut precious stones azcaxalli anthill iztaxalli grain of salt texalli sandy stone for grinding stones xaltemalacatl stone for sharpening tools xaltetl pebble xicalli cuauhxicalli wooden vessel cuaxicalli skull of the head tlancuaxicalli knee bone xicaltecomatl vessel made of a gourd Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 14 xicolli atexicolli sack of the testicles cuitlaxcolli intestines xictli a:xictli whirlpool xinachtli tlacaxinachtli semen xiquipilli ehuaxiquipilli leather bag matlaxiquipilli bag made of net mixiquipilli quiver for arrows teocuitlaxiquipilli money bag xixtli a:xixcalli latrine a:xixcomitl chamberpot a:xixtecomatl bladder axixcalli latrine axixcomitl chamberpot axixtecomatl bladder axixtli urine xochitl ayohxochitl squash blossom nextlexochtli embers omixochitl lily tlexochtli redhot coal tlilxochitl vanilla bean plant xocha:tl rose water xochicozcatl garland of flowers xochihuauhtli wild yellow amaranth xochinecuhtli honey that grows inside the flower xochitototl kind of yellow bird yolloxochitl fragrant flower in the form of a heart xocotl coatlanxocotl blackberry fruit texocotl apple of the Indies xococuahuitl fruit tree xocoicxitl stem of a piece of fruit xocomecamaitl vineshoot or tendril xocomecatl grapevine xocomecayacatzontli tendril of a vineshoot xocomecayollotl grape xocooctli wine made from fruit xocotetl very green fruit, and yet to ripen xocouinocomitl vinegar pot xocoyollohtli fruit pit xotl xopilli toe Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 15 yacatl a:calyacatl prow of a ship tozcayacacuitlatl phlegm xocomecayacatzontli tendril of a vineshoot yacaatolli mucous yacacuitlatl mucous yacatolli mucous yacatzontli hair of the nose yollotl meyollohtli heart of the century cactus zoquitl tenezoquitl mortar of lime and sand zoquia:tl mud zoquitecomatl clay cup -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lemarc at attglobal.net Sat Feb 17 21:38:41 2001 From: lemarc at attglobal.net (Marc Eisinger) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:38:41 +0100 Subject: Pidiginization in nawatl ? Message-ID: David, I have not enough competence to answer straigthforward your question but : (1) How do you know that "a considerable number of yuto-aztecan radicals becomed lost" ? (2) These kind of examples are numerous in agglutinative languages like Nahuatl but there are plenty in other languages too ! Did you notice that desayunar (like breakfast and déjeuner) are compounds ? Most, if not all, of the native speakers of Spanish I know (resp. English and French) where not aware of it. (3) I'm not sure that the notion of "number of radicals" has any more sense than the "number of words". Marc Eisinger -- Entre le fort et le faible, entre le riche et le pauvre, entre le maître et le serviteur, c'est la liberté qui opprime et la loi qui affranchit. Henri Lacordaire -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davius_sanctex at terra.es Sun Feb 18 00:05:14 2001 From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 01:05:14 +0100 Subject: Pidiginization in nawatl ? Message-ID: I have not enough competence to answer straigthforward your question but : >(1) How do you know that "a considerable number of yuto-aztecan radicals >becomed lost" ? I did not test this fact in deep, but it seems obvious to me that if normal words for non-cultural dependent word such as "moustache", "ankle" ... are formed by more basic terms there are two possibilities: a) These radical items never have existed in proto-uto-aztecan and no loss wouldn't have ocurred (this is verifiable looking at other uto-aztecan languages). b) The radical itmes existed and subsequently they were lost. (this is also verifiable in the same manner). If I think a priori that a "considerable number of radicals became lost" is because the lost terms are common in all languages I know in the form of simple unanalysable items. It is no matter my opinion because there are veriafiable facts that can confirm or deny this claim. >(2) These kind of examples are numerous in agglutinative languages like Nahuatl >but there are plenty in other languages too ! Certainly, the evidence that I stated is very weak. I know a little turkish and basque and it is my opinion that nahuatl has a little more propensity; but this is only an opinion. >Did you notice that desayunar (like breakfast and déjeuner) are compounds ? These are more culture dependent terms. (des-ayun-ar is a derivate no a compound). but the question not this. Hoewever I find your observations are valuable! Ma tipahtican! David S. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Mon Feb 19 09:04:22 2001 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:04:22 GMT Subject: No subject Message-ID: "David Sanchez" write:- > In a personal conversation with a member of this group, we wondered that > nahuatl can express so many terms with a very reducted set of radical items. ... > In fact I've heard the number of radicals used is only around 1000!!! > This is a prototypical situation in PIDGINS and CREOLES ... Or some ancestor of Nawatl underwent a bout of phonetic change that left it with an excessive homophone overload, and for clarity it had to rename many things. For example, in the history of English the duck (bird) had to get a new name when its old name fell identical with the word "end". In Dutch they are still distinct (`eend' = "duck", `eind' = "end"; the noun "duck" came from the verb "duck" = "dive", compare Dutch `duiker' = "diver"). From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Mon Feb 19 13:35:22 2001 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:35:22 GMT Subject: No subject Message-ID: "David Sanchez" wrote:- > In a personal conversation with a member of this group, we wondered that > nahuatl can express so many terms with a very reducted set of radical items. ... > In fact I've heard the number of radicals used is only around 1000!!! > This is a prototypical situation in PIDGINS and CREOLES ... With "ankle", the same is true for English. It looks like a simple root word, but it came not from its own root but from the Common Indo-European root {ang} = "narrow". Likeways English "elbow", which came from two roots meaning "forearm bend". The same happened in French with the bee :: its Latin name "apis" reduced in French via "ef" to merely "e" (which should have an acute accent), which is so easily lost among other words that part of France renamed it the "honey fly" (mouche-a`-miel) and part took the word "abeille" from Occitanian. Citlalyani From jrader at Merriam-Webster.com Tue Feb 20 17:47:35 2001 From: jrader at Merriam-Webster.com (Jim Rader) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:47:35 -0500 Subject: Pidiginization in nawatl ? Message-ID: Lyle Campbell has pointed out, in a _Language_ article of 1986 and some other places, that kenning-like compounds are a Mesoamerican areal feature with some cross-linguistic sharing of metaphor, so that they look like a set of loan-translations, whatever language they originated in. I don't know enough about languages other than Nahuatl to give examples, but maybe others on the list can. Some Campbell mentions are the following (the Nahuatl equivalents are my addition, and subject to correction): "boa" = deer-snake (maza:co:a:tl) "egg" = bird-stone/bone (to:toltetl) "door" = "house-mouth" (Nahuatl cali:xtli is more like "house-eye," and doesn't exactly mean "door") "eye" = face-fruit/seed (no such compound in Nahuatl, as far as I know, but i:xtli means both "face" and "eye") "wrist" = hand-neck (maquechtli) "knee" = "leg-head" (Nahuatl tlancua:itl has "head," but the identity of the first element doesn't seem to be clear) My gut feeling is that some languages just do this, and pidginization is not really a factor, though strong influence from adjacent languages may be. Northwest Caucasian languages (Circassian, Abkhaz) also tend to use fairly transparent compounds for body parts and other fairly basic vocabulary items. Jim Rader From dakin at servidor.unam.mx Tue Feb 20 18:44:39 2001 From: dakin at servidor.unam.mx (Karen Dakin) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:44:39 -0600 Subject: Pidiginization in nawatl ? Message-ID: on 2/20/01 11:47 AM, Jim Rader at jrader at Merriam-Webster.com wrote: > Lyle Campbell has pointed out, in a _Language_ article of 1986 and > some other places, [stuff snipped] Just to be a bit more precise, that article was by Lyle Campbell, Terrence Kaufman and Thomas Smith-Stark, and Smith-Stark provided the detail about all the compounds, including distribution maps, etc., in a 1982 paper, "Mesoamerican Calques" later published in Investigaciones Ling��sticas en Mesoam�rica, edited by Carolyn J. MacKay and Veronica Vazquez, Instituto de Investigaciones Filologicas, UNAM, Mexico, DF, 1994. Pp. 15-52, for anyone interested. Also to add to comments to the general question on compounding and pidgins with relation to Nahuatl, I think proto-Uto-Aztecan was a compounding language basically, perhaps best seen reflected in the Numic languages' use of instrumental prefixes -- look for example at Jon Dayley's T�mpisa(Panamint) Shoshone grammar and dictionary published by the University of California. The instrumental prefixes show up frozen in Nahuatl words like chikiwitl and tlapa:ni, and are also found in other languages, as pointed out by several linguists. My conclusions have been that Nahuatl through phonological change has fused old compounds into what look like single morphemes in many cases (*se(-)wa-ci- > xo:chi-, for example. One could perhaps consider compounding as one of the productive processes inherited along with the language, and for that reason it continues to be used to make new words. From william at amacalli.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 16:28:16 2001 From: william at amacalli.demon.co.uk (Bill W.) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:28:16 -0000 Subject: brushes and pens Message-ID: Does anyone have references concerning pre-conquest writing and painting implements? I've found a bit about Maya brushes and quills, but so far no mention of what exactly the Mexica used to paint their books with. Did they have the same kind of reed-brush as the Maya? Were similar tools used throughout all Meso-American cultures? I'd be grateful for any enlightenment that can be offered on the subject. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Fri Feb 23 16:42:49 2001 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:42:49 -0700 Subject: FUAC 2001 / Taller de los Amigos de las Lenguas Yutoaztecas 2001 - Santa Barbara Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 01:30:32 -0600 Subject: FUAC 2001 / Taller de los Amigos de las Lenguas Yutoaztecas 2001 - Santa Barbara From: Karen Dakin CALL FOR PAPERS, 2001 FRIENDS OF UTO-AZTECAN MEETING/TALLER DE LOS AMIGOS DE LAS LENGUAS YUTOAZTECAS 2001 -- CONVOCATORIA PARA LE ENVIO DE LOS TITULOS Following three conferences in Mexico, we are happy that John Johnson has invited us to the Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History for the 2001 Friends of Uto-Aztecan Working Conference / Taller de los Amigos de las Lenguas Yutoaztecas, July 8-9 (Sunday-Monday). Since the Linguistic Institute will be held at the University of California-Santa Barbara, , the FUAC meeting will have one joint session with the SSILA-WAIL meetings, organized by Marianne Mithun and Greg Brown, which are July 6-7 at the University of California-Santa Barbara. The Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas, Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas, UNAM, is organizing the program. Karen Dakin Mercedes Montes de Oca Veronica Vazquez dakin at servidor.unam.mx mercemo at attglobal.net gvvs at servidor.unam.mx Housing information provided by Marianne Mithun for the SSILA meeting is given in the SSILA announcement which we have included at the end of this call. If you want to stay on campus, you should say that you are attending the SSILA meeting, since the arrangement is for them. There is also a possibility that Friends of the Museum may accept weekend guests for the FUAC meeting, so please make your inquiries with John Johnson. John R. Johnson, Ph.D. Curator of Anthropology Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History 2559 Puesta del Sol Santa Barbara, CA 93105-2998 PH: (805)682-4711 x306 FAX: (805) 569-3170 e-mail: jjohnson at sbnature2.org Homepage: http://www.sbnature.org Name: Address: _____ Yes, I do plan to attend this year's FUAC meeting July 8-9 at the Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History in Santa Barbara, California. My paper title is: _____ No, I do not plan to attend, but would like to receive a copy of the program and remain on the mailing list for 2002. I am now available by E-mail; my address is: I can receive faxes; my fax number is: Return to: Please send titles by 20 April Please send this form to dakin at servidor.unam.mx Mailing address: SLI, Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas Cto. Mario de la Cueva s/n UNAM Mexico, DF 04510 PH: (011)(52-5) 622-7489, FAX (011)(52-5) 622-7495. *************************************************************************** TALLER DE LOS AMIGOS DE LAS LENGUAS YUTOAZTECAS 2001 CONVOCATORIA PARA EL ENVIO DE TITULOS Después de haber tenido tres reuniones en México estamos contentos de que John Johnson nos haya invitado al Museo de Historia Natural de Santa Barbara como sede de la sesión del Taller de los Amigos de las Lenguas Yutoaztecas del 2001 que tendrá lugar los días 8 y 9 de julio (Domingo y Lunes). Debido a que el Instituto Lingüístico, , se llevará a cabo en la Universidad de California- Santa Barbara, la reunión de FUAC tendrá una sesión conjunta con la reunión de SSILA -WAIL organizada por Marianne Mithun, que está programada para el 6,7,(8)de julio. El Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas del Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas, UNAM está organizando el programa de este evento. Karen Dakin Mercedes Montes de Oca Veronica Vazquez dakin at servidor.unam.mx mercemo at attglobal.net gvvs at servidor.unam.mx La información sobre las opciones de alojamiento ha sido proporcionada por Marianne Mithun para el encuentro de SSILA, la cual incluimos con el anuncio de SSILA al final. Si quieren quedarse en la Universidad, hay que decir que es para asistir a la reunión de SSILA, dado que el arreglo es para ellos. También existe la posibilidad de que los Amigos del Museo puedan aceptar invitados para el fin de semana de la reunión de FUAC, para esto deben ponerse en contacto con John Johnson. Organización en Santa Barbara: John R. Johnson, Ph.D. Curator of Anthropology Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History 2559 Puesta del Sol Santa Barbara, CA 93105-2998 TEL: (805)682-4711 x306 FAX: (805) 569-3170 e-mail: jjohnson at sbnature2.org Homepage: http://www.sbnature.org Nombre Dirección ______Si voy a asistir a la reunión de FUAC este año, el 8, 9 de Julio, en el Museo de Historia Natural en Santa Bárbara, California. _____No, no voy a asistir a la reunión pero me gustaría recibir una copia del programa y permanecer en la lista para el 2002. Mi dirección de correo electrónico es _____________________________________ Mi número de fax_________________________________________________ Fecha límite para envío de títulos: 20 de abril 2001 Favor de mandar su respuesta a dakin at servidor.unam.mx o a la siguiente dirección. SLI, Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas Cto. Mario de la Cueva s/n UNAM Mexico, DF 04510 TEL: (011)(52-5) 622-7489, FAX (011)(52-5) 622-7495. ******************************************************************** July 6-7 SSILA MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT: The 2001 SSILA Summer Meeting will take place on the weekend of July 6-7, on the University of California campus at Santa Barbara, in conjunction with the LSA Linguistic Institute. The meeting will be co-hosted by WAIL (the Santa Barbara Workshop on American Indigenous Languages). Local organizers will be Marianne Mithun and Greg Brown. The WAIL/SSILA meeting will be directly followed on Sunday July 8 by the annual meeting of the Friends of Uto-Aztecan, to be held at the Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History. Members of SSILA and others who would like to present a paper are asked to submit an abstract by *March 15*, preferably by e-mail to _both_ of the following addresses: Marianne Mithun Gregory L Brown If e-mail is not possible, then abstracts may be sent by snail-mail to: WAIL/SSILA Conference Department of Linguistics University of California Santa Barbara, CA 93106 Abstracts may also be sent by fax to: 1-805-563-1948 The preliminary program will be announced around April 1. This early deadline has been set in order to allow participants to make travel and lodging plans in good time. A small registration fee will be charged to cover the cost of the meeting space, coffee, and a supper party on Saturday evening. Participants who register for the meeting before May 1 will be charged the "early bird" fee of $25; after May 1 (including at the time of the meeting) the fee will be $35. To register, please mail a check (payable to "WAIL"), together with the following information: Name Address E-mail address Paper title (if any) Lodging arrangements (if you have made them) to the snail-mail address above. Santa Barbara is a favorite destination for visitors during the summer months and as a result, hotel rooms will be scarce and expensive. With the Linguistic Institute in town, there will be even greater pressure on the usual resources. WAIL/SSILA participants are encouraged to make lodging and travel plans as early as possible. On-campus lodging in the San Rafael Guest House will be available to WAIL/SSILA participants during the conference. The dormitory rooms are part of suites containing a common living area and bathroom. There are two to four private bedrooms in each suite. The current rate for on-campus housing is $50 per night, with additional fees for parking. Meals are not provided with these accommodations, but will be available in other campus residence halls. The person to contact for a reservation is Miki Swick, Manager of Campus Campus Conference Services, Housing & Residential Services. Her e-mail address is , her fax is 1-805-893-7287, and her mailing address is: Santa Rosa Administrative Center, UCSB, University of California, Santa Barbara, CA 93106. Be sure to mention that you will be attending the SSILA/WAIL conference. A selective list of off-campus accommodations is available and will be distributed with the January SSILA Newsletter. It will also be posted at the SSILA website, together with other meeting information. Further questions should be addressed to the meeting organizers. From cristi at ix.netcom.com Fri Feb 23 18:52:21 2001 From: cristi at ix.netcom.com (cristi at ix.netcom.com) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:52:21 -0700 Subject: brushes and pens In-Reply-To: <000d01c09db5$ad821a00$0b1adec2@amacalli> Message-ID: From: "Bill W." To: "nahuat-l newsgroup" Subject: brushes and pens Date sent: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:28:16 -0000 Send reply to: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu > Does anyone have references concerning pre-conquest writing and > painting implements? I've found a bit about Maya brushes and quills, > but so far no mention of what exactly the Mexica used to paint their > books with. Did they have the same kind of reed-brush as the Maya? > Were similar tools used throughout all Meso-American cultures? > > I'd be grateful for any enlightenment that can be offered on the > subject. > What a great question. I would love to know, too! Cristi From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at Sat Feb 24 18:29:49 2001 From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 19:29:49 +0100 Subject: brushes and pens Message-ID: Unfortunately the colonial sources are giving less information about painting tools than about the process of making amatl-paper or the use of colours. As Michael Coe and Justin Kerr are pointing out, the Maya scribes used quill and reed pens and conches as painting pots (cf Michael Coe/Justin Kerr 1997: The Art of the Maya scribe. London; cf also J Kerr´s web essai: http://www.mayavase.com/sabak/sabak.html ). For the Maya, writing implements are documented by grave goods and iconography (cf the Grolier Codex or some vessels of Kerr´s Maya vase database at famsi.org). Brushes are also depicted in Mixtec and Nahua codices such as C. Mendoza, Telleriano-Remensis (with a female tlacuilo) or C. Vindobonensis. Nelly Gutiérrez Solana (Códices de México. México 1992) mentions rabbit brushes used by the Mexica (if I remember well - don´t have the book here at hand). Fray Molina´s "Vocabulario" (1555) lists the following the devices: a) painting pots: - tliltecomatl (tintero para pintar) - tlacuiloltecomatl (paint container) b) tlacuiloluapalli - tablilla para escribir c) totolacatecomatl - caja de escribanía (totolin-acatl-tecomatl): so the Mexica used also (at least in the colonial period) turkey pens (totolacatl) ... hope that helps a bit Juergen Stowasser PS: Maybe someone of the list-memebers knows more about archaeological evidence of brushes and paint containers in Central Mexico? -- Juergen Stowasser Burggasse 114/2/8 A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a Austria tel: 01/ 524 54 60 v 0676/ 398 66 79 http://www.univie.ac.at/meso From pthajovs at midway.uchicago.edu Sat Feb 24 18:30:46 2001 From: pthajovs at midway.uchicago.edu (patrick thomas hajovsky) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 12:30:46 -0600 Subject: brushes and pens In-Reply-To: <000d01c09db5$ad821a00$0b1adec2@amacalli> Message-ID: There may be some information in Sahagun (Book 2?), since he describes native artists and art production. Also, there is a lot of archaeological evidence from Teotihuacan. I've seen images of pallettes and tools. If you're interested, I can look up the bib. later this week. Patrick _______________________________ ixquich in pepetlaca xteocuitla On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Bill W. wrote: > Does anyone have references concerning pre-conquest writing and painting implements? I've found a bit about Maya brushes and quills, but so far no mention of what exactly the Mexica used to paint their books with. Did they have the same kind of reed-brush as the Maya? Were similar tools used throughout all Meso-American cultures? > > I'd be grateful for any enlightenment that can be offered on the subject. > > > From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at Sat Feb 24 20:26:44 2001 From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 21:26:44 +0100 Subject: brushes and pens Message-ID: that´s Sahagún lib. X cap.8 (but doesn´t mention any implement) best juergen patrick thomas hajovsky schrieb: > There may be some information in Sahagun (Book 2?), since he describes > native artists and art production. > > Also, there is a lot of archaeological evidence from Teotihuacan. I've > seen images of pallettes and tools. If you're interested, I can look up > the bib. later this week. > > Patrick > _______________________________ > ixquich in pepetlaca xteocuitla > > On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Bill W. wrote: > > > Does anyone have references concerning pre-conquest writing and painting implements? I've found a bit about Maya brushes and quills, but so far no mention of what exactly the Mexica used to paint their books with. Did they have the same kind of reed-brush as the Maya? Were similar tools used throughout all Meso-American cultures? > > > > I'd be grateful for any enlightenment that can be offered on the subject. > > > > > > -- Juergen Stowasser Burggasse 114/2/8 A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a Austria tel: 01/ 524 54 60 v 0676/ 398 66 79 http://www.univie.ac.at/meso From js9211 at csc.albany.edu Tue Feb 27 16:15:20 2001 From: js9211 at csc.albany.edu (SANCHEZ JOANNA M) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:15:20 -0500 Subject: quetzalteueyac Message-ID: I am wondering what people think about the name "queztalteueac" as I am analyzing the Historia T-C. Specifically, what would be the sense imparted by 'tehuia' in this construction given the role of this figure in the emergence from Chicomoztoc? Thanks. Joanna Sanchez From karttu at nantucket.net Tue Feb 27 20:19:54 2001 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:19:54 -0500 Subject: quetzalteueyac Message-ID: I would be cautious about analyzing this as quetzal- plus transitive tehuia 'to strike something [in this case the quetzal] with stones.' Not only do you find -tehue- rather than -tehui- in this name, but you find -ac at the end, not the preterite form one would get with a class 3 -ia verb used as an attributive. I would like to read this as 'he has caused people to rise up in the manner of quetzal plumage.' But alas, the -ehuac preterite form of the verb ehua is the intransitive form. If we were to read it as "he has risen up in the manner of quetzal plumage,' then I can't account for the internal -t-. Does anyone else have a solution to this? Fran ---------- >From: SANCHEZ JOANNA M >Subject: quetzalteueyac >Date: Tue, Feb 27, 2001, 11:15 AM > > I am wondering what people think about the name "queztalteueac" > as I am analyzing the Historia T-C. > Specifically, what would be the sense imparted by 'tehuia' in this > construction given the role of this figure in the emergence from > Chicomoztoc? Thanks. Joanna Sanchez > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Feb 27 20:56:19 2001 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:56:19 -0500 Subject: quetzalteueyac In-Reply-To: <200102272022.PAA31195@nantucket.net> Message-ID: I don't know offhand, but this looks like . On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Frances Karttunen wrote: > I would be cautious about analyzing this as quetzal- plus transitive tehuia > 'to strike something [in this case the quetzal] with stones.' Not only do > you find -tehue- rather than -tehui- in this name, but you find -ac at the > end, not the preterite form one would get with a class 3 -ia verb used as an > attributive. > > I would like to read this as 'he has caused people to rise up in the manner > of quetzal plumage.' But alas, the -ehuac preterite form of the verb ehua > is the intransitive form. If we were to read it as "he has risen up in the > manner of quetzal plumage,' then I can't account for the internal -t-. > > Does anyone else have a solution to this? > > Fran > > ---------- > >From: SANCHEZ JOANNA M > >Subject: quetzalteueyac > >Date: Tue, Feb 27, 2001, 11:15 AM > > > > > I am wondering what people think about the name "queztalteueac" > > as I am analyzing the Historia T-C. > > Specifically, what would be the sense imparted by 'tehuia' in this > > construction given the role of this figure in the emergence from > > Chicomoztoc? Thanks. Joanna Sanchez > > > > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." -Albert Einstein From AscheAsh2 at aol.com Tue Feb 27 21:41:58 2001 From: AscheAsh2 at aol.com (AscheAsh2 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:41:58 EST Subject: FUAC 2001 / Taller de los Amigos de las Lenguas Yutoaztecas 2001 - Santa... Message-ID: In einer eMail vom 23.02.01 17:45:37 (MEZ) Mitteleuropäische Zeit schreibt schwallr at selway.umt.edu: << _____ No, I do not plan to attend, but would like to receive a copy of the program and remain on the mailing list for 2002. I am now available by E-mail; my address is: I can receive faxes; my fax number is: >> (49)403603 From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Feb 28 11:23:11 2001 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 06:23:11 -0500 Subject: quetzalteueyac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My apologies to the list for this response. I had not properly read Dr. Karttunen's message before I sent mine out. Since the list is not monitored, such trash will occasionally appear. Michael On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > I don't know offhand, but this looks like . > > > > On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Frances Karttunen wrote: > > > I would be cautious about analyzing this as quetzal- plus transitive tehuia > > 'to strike something [in this case the quetzal] with stones.' Not only do > > you find -tehue- rather than -tehui- in this name, but you find -ac at the > > end, not the preterite form one would get with a class 3 -ia verb used as an > > attributive. > > > > I would like to read this as 'he has caused people to rise up in the manner > > of quetzal plumage.' But alas, the -ehuac preterite form of the verb ehua > > is the intransitive form. If we were to read it as "he has risen up in the > > manner of quetzal plumage,' then I can't account for the internal -t-. > > > > Does anyone else have a solution to this? > > > > Fran > > > > ---------- > > >From: SANCHEZ JOANNA M > > >Subject: quetzalteueyac > > >Date: Tue, Feb 27, 2001, 11:15 AM > > > > > > > > I am wondering what people think about the name "queztalteueac" > > > as I am analyzing the Historia T-C. > > > Specifically, what would be the sense imparted by 'tehuia' in this > > > construction given the role of this figure in the emergence from > > > Chicomoztoc? Thanks. Joanna Sanchez > > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael McCafferty > 307 Memorial Hall > Indiana University > Bloomington, Indiana > 47405 > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > "There are only two ways to live your life. > One is as though nothing is a miracle. > The other is as though everything is a miracle." > > -Albert Einstein > > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." -Albert Einstein From mdmorris at indiana.edu Wed Feb 28 18:18:49 2001 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:18:49 -0500 Subject: quetzalteueyac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael, I also find quetzaltehueyac the easiest orthographic reading, but likewise can make little good of it, so don't worry about the disparate. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Mon Feb 12 22:35:57 2001 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:35:57 -0700 Subject: linguaffix Message-ID: >From: petek kurtboke [mailto:linguaffix at yahoo.com] >Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 10:40 AM >Subject: linguaffix > >Dear Colleagues, > >You might remember from my previous postings that I >have a corpus of Turkish and study how agglutination >works on the basis of corpus information. > >I'm now starting a new e-group and the address is: > > > >My aim is to create a platform for those who work on >agglutinative languages from a corpus perspective (a >rare phenomenon!). You can send messages to > if you do similar work. > >Please pass on this message to colleagues and students >who might be interested. > >With thanks and best wishes >Petek > > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 >a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From davius_sanctex at terra.es Sat Feb 17 00:13:12 2001 From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 01:13:12 +0100 Subject: Pidiginization in nawatl ? Message-ID: In a personal conversation with a member of this group, we wondered that nahuatl can express so many terms with a very reducted set of radical items. For example for terms like "moustache", "neighbour", "ankle" are expressed by more basic items: 'lip' + 'hair' = 'moustache' 'house' + 'near' + = 'neighbour' 'leg' + 'neck' = 'ankle' In fact I've heard the number of radicals used is only around 1000!!! This is a prototypical situation in PIDGINS and CREOLES, and we think that it is possible nawatl undergoed(?) a period of pidginization when a considerable number of yuto-aztecan radicals becomed lost and therefore they were replaced by compounds like (1), (2) and (3). What do you think? Do you consider reasonable this hypothesis about diachronic history of nawatl? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Feb 17 19:58:55 2001 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:58:55 -0500 Subject: Pidiginization in nawatl ? In-Reply-To: <002501c09876$6b694d80$a113523e@pc> Message-ID: David, I wish I knew more about 1) pidgins and creoles and 2) the Uto-Aztecan language and its history because I think that a discussion of your point (i.e., that a restricted morpheme set, together with the necessary heavy use of compounding, is evidence that a language probably underwent pidginization sometime in its history) [pardon the long interpolation] would require input from people knowledgable in both of the above areas. Having declared my ignorance, I can give you my unenlightened reaction to the inference that you make. Your inference makes the assumption that the "natural" organization of a language involves a large lexicon of morphemes -- that it isn't "natural" for a language to be organized with a relatively small set of morphemes and to make use of compounding in order to cover its needs of semantic distinction. Although I *do* believe that there are some interesting observations about language universals, I also believe that human languages differ in unexpected ways, so I have a hard time thinking that "heavy compounding" languages are necessarily changed from a more "basic" language shape. German, English, and Eskimo are known to lean heavily on compounding to fill their needs for making semantic distinctions. With regard to German and English, should we infer that Proto-Indo-European had a larger morpheme lexicon and that German and English probably underwent pidginization? My personal inclination is that Nahuatl's compounding strategy is a natural development possible in any language. I'd be interested in hearing some evidence for its being strongly likely that it involved pidginization. I include below a list of some noun compounds from Molina's 16th century vocabulary efforts. Best regards, Joe p.s. Although Swadesh wrote about "los mil elementos...", I know of about 1300, so the number apparently exceeds that. On Sat, 17 Feb 2001, David Sanchez wrote: <> > > In fact I've heard the number of radicals used is only around 1000!!! > > This is a prototypical situation in PIDGINS and CREOLES, and we think > that it is possible nawatl undergoed(?) a period of pidginization when a > considerable number of yuto-aztecan radicals becomed lost and therefore > they were replaced by compounds like (1), (2) and (3). > > What do you think? Do you consider reasonable this hypothesis about > diachronic history of nawatl? > Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 1 a:tl a:calli canoe a:calyacatl prow of a ship a:coatl water snake a:comitl large earthen water jar a:huictli oar a:milli irrigated land a:octli liquor made with honey and water a:ohtli water conduit a:poctli water vapor a:tecomatl gourd for drinking water a:tentli bank of a river a:tlacatl sailor a:tocatl water spider a:xictli whirlpool a:xixcalli latrine a:xixcomitl chamberpot a:xixtecomatl bladder a:caxitl water basin ahuictli oar altepe:milli community land altepetlalli community lands atezcatl pool of water, or a water gauge atlalli irrigated land axixcalli latrine axixcomitl chamberpot chila:tl chile pepper water michacaxitl fishtank necua:tl mixture of water and honey nexa:tl lye tepe:a:tl mountain water tlalatl bog xocha:tl rose water zoquia:tl mud acatl acamahpilli rod acapetlatl reed mat totolacatl quill totolacatecomatl inkwell totolacatl quill or feather for writing ahcolli ahcolchimalli shoulder bone ahcoltzontli hair on the shoulder amatl ama:calli bookstore ama:calli cone-shaped paper cap amatzoncalli paper helmet (cone) cuicaamatl songbook tepozamatl metal foil tocaamatl registry of names tonalamatl calendar Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 2 amoxtli amoxcalli bookstore amoxtentli margin of a book amoxtocaitl title of a book apaztli cuauhapaztli wooden vessel teapaztli stone basin tepozapaztli copper caldron or basin atolli yacaatolli mucous yacatolli mucous cactli cachuapalli sole or form of a shoe cactlilli shoemaker's dye cuauhcactli wooden sandal ehuacactli rawhide shoe tilmahcactli cloth slipper calli a:calli canoe a:calyacatl prow of a ship a:xixcalli latrine ama:calli bookstore ama:calli cone-shaped paper cap amatzoncalli paper helmet (cone) amoxcalli bookstore axixcalli latrine calcuaitl roof of a house calcuichtli soot callalli ground that is next to a house calmilli land that is next to the house calnacaztli corner of a house calocuilin silk cocoon calohtli road that goes to a house cuauhcalli large wooden cage cuitlacalli latrine huapalcalli house or hut made of boards huilocalli pigeonhouse mazacalli stable moyocalli mosquito net ocopetlacalli pine box omicalli ossuary or place to put bones pahcalli drugstore petlacalli reed chest petlacalmecahuehuetl spinet, stringed instrument with keys pitzocalli pigsty tecalli stone house tenexcalli lime oven teocalli church teocaltototl sparrow teotlatquicalli sacristy tepozpetlacalli iron or copper box Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 3 tlacualcalli pantry tlecalli chimney tochcalli rabbit burrow totolcalli henhouse tzoncalli wig yaocalli fortress capolin capuloctli cherry wine caxitl a:caxitl water basin chilmolcaxitl dish for chile pepper stew michacaxitl fishtank omicaxitl bone dish tecaxitli stone basin tepozcaxitl copper pan tepoztlecaxitl metal incense burner tlecaxitl clay incense burner tototecaxtli birds' nest chimalli tepochimalli shield chiquihuitl cuauhchiquihuitl wooden basket elchiquihuitl ribcage totochiquihuitl birds' nest zoyachiquihuitl basket made of palm leaves cihuatl cihuacahuallo mare cihuamontli daughter-in-law cihuatlacamichin sea siren, mermaid cihuatlacohtli woman slave cihuatotolin hen tlacatecolocihuatl diabolical woman tlahtocacihuapilli princess or great lady coatl a:coatl water snake coahuitzmecatl brambleberry coamichin eel coatetl snake egg coatlancapulin blackberry fruit coatlantli blackberry bush or eyetooth coatlanxocotl blackberry fruit tlilcoatl black snake comitl a:comitl large earthen water jar a:xixcomitl chamberpot axixcomitl chamberpot contlilli soot from pots micomitl quiver for arrows tlecomitl crucible for melting gold Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 4 xocouinocomitl vinegar pot conetl axnoconetl young donkey canauhconetl small duck huiloconetl young pigeon ichcaconetl lamb mazaconetl fawn tochconetl young rabbit totoconetl young bird totolconetl chick coyotl tlalcoyotl jackal which hides underground and digs cozcatl xochicozcatl garland of flowers cuahuitl capulcuahuitl cherry tree cuacuahuitl animal's horn cuauhapaztli wooden vessel cuauhcactli wooden sandal cuauhcalli large wooden cage cuauhchiquihuitl wooden basket cuauhhuitztli kind of thorn bush cuauhocuilin worm which gnaws wood cuauhtexolotl pestle of a mortar cuauhxicalli wooden vessel huitzcuahuitl thorny tree ococuahuitl pine tree tlalcuahuitl rod for measuring fields tlecuahuitl wooden instrument for making fire xococuahuitl fruit tree cuaitl calcuaitl roof of a house cuacuahuitl animal's horn cuamatlatl hairnet cuametlapil man with a large head cuanacatl cock's comb cuateyollotl crown of the head cuatzontli hair of the head cuaxicalli skull of the head cuayollohtli crown of the head ixcuaitl forehead ixcuatzontli hair on the forehead tlancuaxicalli knee bone cuitlatl cuitlacalli latrine cuitlaxcolli intestines nacazcuitlatl ear wax teocuitlatl gold teocuitlatlalli gold dust teocuitlaxiquipilli money bag Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 5 tilmahcuitlapilli tail of a piece of clothing totolcuitlatl chicken dung tozcacuitlatl phlegm tozcayacacuitlatl phlegm tzocuitlatl sweat of the body xicohcuitlaocotl wax candle xicohcuitlatl wax yacacuitlatl mucous ehuatl ehuacactli rawhide shoe ehuahuehuetl tambourine ehuatilmahtli leather garment ehuaxiquipilli leather bag nochehuatl prickly pear peeling totolteehuatl membrane of an egg huapalli cachuapalli sole or form of a shoe huapalcalli house or hut made of boards tehuapalli large wide tombstone or slab huictli a:huictli oar ahuictli oar tepozhuictli iron hoe huilotl huiloconetl young pigeon oquichhuilotl male dove huipilli ichcahuipilli padded armor for battle tepozhuipilli coat of mail tepozmatlahuipilli coat of mail tlachuipilli jacket huitztli coahuitzmecatl brambleberry cuauhhuitztli kind of thorn bush huitzcuahuitl thorny tree huitzomitl needle for sewing huitzquilitl cardoon, an edible plant huitzquiltzontecomatl artichoke tototenhuitztli beak of a bird ichcatl ichcaconetl lamb ichcahuipilli padded armor for battle ichpochtli ichpochtotolin pullet which is beginning to lay eggs icnotl icnotlacatl orphan or needy person Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 6 icpatl icpatetl ball of thread icxitl icxiohtli footpath xocoicxitl stem of a piece of fruit ixtli ixcuaitl forehead ixcuatzontli hair on the forehead ixtezcatl spectacles iztatl iztatetl cake of salt iztatlacatl salt maker iztaxalli grain of salt maitl acamahpilli rod mahpilli finger matemecatl bracelet matzotzopaztli forearm tepoztlemaitl fire shovel tlalmaitl laborer or worker tlemaitl clay scoop for carrying fire xocomecamaitl vineshoot or tendril matlatl cuamatlatl hairnet matlaxiquipilli bag made of net tepozmatlahuipilli coat of mail totomatlatl net for hunting birds mazatl mazacalli stable mazaconetl fawn tlacamazatl bestial man mecatl cahuallomecatl halter cahuallotemmecatl horse's halter coahuitzmecatl brambleberry matemecatl bracelet mecahuehuetl guitar petlacalmecahuehuetl spinet, stringed instrument with keys tlalhuamecatl guitar string tlalmecatl cord for measuring fields xocomecamaitl vineshoot or tendril xocomecatl grapevine xocomecayacatzontli tendril of a vineshoot xocomecayollotl grape zacamecatl rope made of grass Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 7 metl meneuctli raw maguey cactus nectar meyollohtli heart of the century cactus michin cihuatlacamichin sea siren, mermaid coamichin eel michacaxitl fishtank michomitl fish bone michtetl fish egg tlacamichin big fish, catfish milli a:milli irrigated land altepe:milli community land calmilli land that is next to the house milchilli chile pepper that grows in the fields millacatl worker or peasant mitl micomitl quiver for arrows mixiquipilli quiver for arrows tencualacmitl poisoned arrow moyotl moyocalli mosquito net tlemoyonextli dead spark tlemoyotl spark nacatl cuanacatl cock's comb tlacanacatl human flesh nacaztli calnacaztli corner of a house nacazcuitlatl ear wax tenacaztli stone carved for the corner of a wall neuctli meneuctli raw maguey cactus nectar necua:tl mixture of water and honey xochinecuhtli honey that grows inside the flower nextli nexa:tl lye nextlexochtli embers tenexcalli lime oven tenextli lime tenezoquitl mortar of lime and sand tlemoyonextli dead spark ocotl ococentli pine cone ococenyollohtli pine seed ococuahuitl pine tree Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 8 ocopetlacalli pine box ocopilli pine faggot ocotlilli black stain from pine smoke ocotochtilmahtli cape made from martens' hides ocotochtli mountain cat or marten ocotzotetl pitch or tar ocotzotl pine resin xicohcuitlaocotl wax candle octli a:octli liquor made with honey and water capuloctli cherry wine nochoctli prickly pear wine xocooctli wine made from fruit ocuilin calocuilin silk cocoon cuauhocuilin worm which gnaws wood meocuilin maguey cactus worm tilmahocuilin clothes moth tlanocuilin caries or a worm that ruins teeth zacaocuilin grass worm ohtli a:ohtli water conduit calohtli road that goes to a house icxiohtli footpath omitl huitzomitl needle for sewing michomitl fish bone omicalli ossuary or place to put bones omicaxitl bone dish omixochitl lily tlanomitl ivory oquichtli oquichhuilotl male dove pahtli pahcalli drugstore petlatl acapetlatl reed mat ocopetlacalli pine box petlacalli reed chest petlacalmecahuehuetl spinet, stringed instrument with keys tepetlatl kind of porous rock tepozpetlacalli iron or copper box pilli acamahpilli rod cuametlapil man with a large head mahpilli finger metlapilli grinder for the metate ocopilli pine faggot Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 9 tilmahcuitlapilli tail of a piece of clothing tlahtocacihuapilli princess or great lady tlahtocapilli noble and generous gentleman xopilli toe quechtli cahualloquetzontli horse's mane quechtlalhuatl nerves of the neck quetzontli long hair on the back of the head quilitl huitzquilitl cardoon, an edible plant tecomatl a:tecomatl gourd for drinking water a:xixtecomatl bladder axixtecomatl bladder huitzquiltzontecomatl artichoke tliltecomatl inkwell totolacatecomatl inkwell tototlacualtecomatl gizzard of a bird tzontecomatl head xicaltecomatl vessel made of a gourd zoquitecomatl clay cup tentli a:tentli bank of a river amoxtentli margin of a book tencualacmitl poisoned arrow tentetl lip ornament tentzontli beard tilmahtentli edge of a piece of clothing tototenhuitztli beak of a bird tototentli beak of a bird tepetl altepe:milli community land altepetlalli community lands tepoztli tepochimalli shield tepozamatl metal foil tepozapaztli copper caldron or basin tepozcacalotl nippers, tongs tepozcaxitl copper pan tepozhuictli iron hoe tepozhuipilli coat of mail tepozmatlahuipilli coat of mail tepozpetlacalli iron or copper box tepoztlalli iron filings tepoztlecaxitl metal incense burner tepoztlemaitl fire shovel tzintepoztli hilt of a lance or staff Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 10 tetl amilotetl eggs of the white fish atetl testicle atexicolli sack of the testicles canauhtetl duck egg coatetl snake egg cuateyollotl crown of the head cuauhtexolotl pestle of a mortar eltepitztli shoulder blade icpatetl ball of thread iztatetl cake of salt matemecatl bracelet michtetl fish egg ocotzotetl pitch or tar teapaztli stone basin tecalli stone house tecaxitli stone basin tehuapalli large wide tombstone or slab temetztli lead (metal) tenacaztli stone carved for the corner of a wall tenexcalli lime oven tenextli lime tenezoquitl mortar of lime and sand tentetl lip ornament teotetl jet (kind of stone) tepetlatl kind of porous rock teteotl idol texalli sandy stone for grinding stones texocotl apple of the Indies tlaltetl clod of earth tliltetl paragraph mark, or a diacritic totolteehuatl membrane of an egg totoltemulli porridge made of eggs totoltetl egg tototecaxtli birds' nest tzintetl foundation of a wall xaltemalacatl stone for sharpening tools xaltetl pebble xocotetl very green fruit, and yet to ripen tezcatl atezcatl pool of water, or a water gauge ixtezcatl spectacles tilmahtli ehuatilmahtli leather garment ocotochtilmahtli cape made from martens' hides tilmahcactli cloth slipper tilmahcuitlapilli tail of a piece of clothing tilmahocuilin clothes moth tilmahtentli edge of a piece of clothing tlahtocatilmahtli royal or lordly clothing Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 11 tlacatl a:tlacatl sailor altepe:tlacatl townsperson atlacatl sailor cihuatlacamichin sea siren, mermaid icnotlacatl orphan or needy person iztatlacatl salt maker tlacahuilotl gray pigeon with a white neck tlacamazatl bestial man tlacamichin big fish, catfish tlacanacatl human flesh tlacatecolocihuatl diabolical woman tlacatecolotl devil tlacaxinachtli semen tlactli tlachuipilli jacket tlacualli tlacualcalli pantry tototlacualtecomatl gizzard of a bird tlahtoca tlahtocacihuapilli princess or great lady tlahtocaicpalli royal chair tlahtocapilli noble and generous gentleman tlahtocatilmahtli royal or lordly clothing tlahtocatlatquitl property of a king or noble tlalhuatl cotztlalhuatl nerves of the calf of the leg metztlalhuatl nerves of leg quechtlalhuatl nerves of the neck tlalhuamecatl guitar string tlalli altepetlalli community lands atlalli irrigated land teocuitlatlalli gold dust tepoztlalli iron filings tlalatl bog tlalcoyotl jackal which hides underground and digs tlalcuahuitl rod for measuring fields tlalmaitl laborer or worker tlalmecatl cord for measuring fields tlaloztotl underground or basement tlaltechalotl small animal like a squirrel tlaltetl clod of earth tlantli tlanocuilin caries or a worm that ruins teeth tlatquitl cahuallotlatquitl horse's harness and trappings chantlatquitl house furniture Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 12 obispotlatquitl bishop's clothing teotlatquicalli sacristy tlahtocatlatquitl property of a king or noble tletl nextlexochtli embers tepoztlecaxitl metal incense burner tepoztlemaitl fire shovel tlecalli chimney tlecaxitl clay incense burner tlecomitl crucible for melting gold tlecuahuitl wooden instrument for making fire tlemaitl clay scoop for carrying fire tlemoyonextli dead spark tlemoyotl spark tlexochtli redhot coal tlilli cactlilli shoemaker's dye comaltlilli soot from a griddle contlilli soot from pots ocotlilli black stain from pine smoke tlilazcatl black poisonous ant tlilcoatl black snake tlilhuauhtli wild black amaranth tliltecomatl inkwell tliltetl paragraph mark, or a diacritic tlilxochitl vanilla bean plant tocaitl amoxtocaitl title of a book tecuhtocaitl renown of lineage tocaamatl registry of names tocatl a:tocatl water spider tochtli ocotochtilmahtli cape made from martens' hides ocotochtli mountain cat or marten tochcalli rabbit burrow tochconetl young rabbit totolin cihuatotolin hen ichpochtotolin pullet which is beginning to lay eggs totolacatecomatl inkwell totolacatl quill or feather for writing totolcalli henhouse totolconetl chick totolcuitlatl chicken dung totolteehuatl membrane of an egg totoltemulli porridge made of eggs totoltetl egg Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 13 tototl chiltototl red-feathered bird quetzaltototl bird with rich green feathers teocaltototl sparrow totolacatl quill totochiquihuitl birds' nest totoconetl young bird totomatlatl net for hunting birds tototecaxtli birds' nest tototenhuitztli beak of a bird tototentli beak of a bird tototlacualtecomatl gizzard of a bird xochitototl kind of yellow bird tozcatl tozcacuitlatl phlegm tozcayacacuitlatl phlegm tzintli tzinicpalli small portable chair tzintamalli buttock tzintepoztli hilt of a lance or staff tzintetl foundation of a wall tzontli ahcoltzontli hair on the shoulder amatzoncalli paper helmet (cone) cahualloquetzontli horse's mane camatzontli cheek fuzz cuatzontli hair of the head huitzquiltzontecomatl artichoke ixcuatzontli hair on the forehead metzontli hairs of the leg quetzontli long hair on the back of the head tentzontli beard tzoncalli wig tzonicpalli pillow or something for the headrest tzontecomatl head xocomecayacatzontli tendril of a vineshoot yacatzontli hair of the nose xalli axalli kind of sand used to cut precious stones azcaxalli anthill iztaxalli grain of salt texalli sandy stone for grinding stones xaltemalacatl stone for sharpening tools xaltetl pebble xicalli cuauhxicalli wooden vessel cuaxicalli skull of the head tlancuaxicalli knee bone xicaltecomatl vessel made of a gourd Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 14 xicolli atexicolli sack of the testicles cuitlaxcolli intestines xictli a:xictli whirlpool xinachtli tlacaxinachtli semen xiquipilli ehuaxiquipilli leather bag matlaxiquipilli bag made of net mixiquipilli quiver for arrows teocuitlaxiquipilli money bag xixtli a:xixcalli latrine a:xixcomitl chamberpot a:xixtecomatl bladder axixcalli latrine axixcomitl chamberpot axixtecomatl bladder axixtli urine xochitl ayohxochitl squash blossom nextlexochtli embers omixochitl lily tlexochtli redhot coal tlilxochitl vanilla bean plant xocha:tl rose water xochicozcatl garland of flowers xochihuauhtli wild yellow amaranth xochinecuhtli honey that grows inside the flower xochitototl kind of yellow bird yolloxochitl fragrant flower in the form of a heart xocotl coatlanxocotl blackberry fruit texocotl apple of the Indies xococuahuitl fruit tree xocoicxitl stem of a piece of fruit xocomecamaitl vineshoot or tendril xocomecatl grapevine xocomecayacatzontli tendril of a vineshoot xocomecayollotl grape xocooctli wine made from fruit xocotetl very green fruit, and yet to ripen xocouinocomitl vinegar pot xocoyollohtli fruit pit xotl xopilli toe Cross Index of Nahuatl Noun Compounds PAGE 15 yacatl a:calyacatl prow of a ship tozcayacacuitlatl phlegm xocomecayacatzontli tendril of a vineshoot yacaatolli mucous yacacuitlatl mucous yacatolli mucous yacatzontli hair of the nose yollotl meyollohtli heart of the century cactus zoquitl tenezoquitl mortar of lime and sand zoquia:tl mud zoquitecomatl clay cup -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lemarc at attglobal.net Sat Feb 17 21:38:41 2001 From: lemarc at attglobal.net (Marc Eisinger) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:38:41 +0100 Subject: Pidiginization in nawatl ? Message-ID: David, I have not enough competence to answer straigthforward your question but : (1) How do you know that "a considerable number of yuto-aztecan radicals becomed lost" ? (2) These kind of examples are numerous in agglutinative languages like Nahuatl but there are plenty in other languages too ! Did you notice that desayunar (like breakfast and d?jeuner) are compounds ? Most, if not all, of the native speakers of Spanish I know (resp. English and French) where not aware of it. (3) I'm not sure that the notion of "number of radicals" has any more sense than the "number of words". Marc Eisinger -- Entre le fort et le faible, entre le riche et le pauvre, entre le ma?tre et le serviteur, c'est la libert? qui opprime et la loi qui affranchit. Henri Lacordaire -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davius_sanctex at terra.es Sun Feb 18 00:05:14 2001 From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 01:05:14 +0100 Subject: Pidiginization in nawatl ? Message-ID: I have not enough competence to answer straigthforward your question but : >(1) How do you know that "a considerable number of yuto-aztecan radicals >becomed lost" ? I did not test this fact in deep, but it seems obvious to me that if normal words for non-cultural dependent word such as "moustache", "ankle" ... are formed by more basic terms there are two possibilities: a) These radical items never have existed in proto-uto-aztecan and no loss wouldn't have ocurred (this is verifiable looking at other uto-aztecan languages). b) The radical itmes existed and subsequently they were lost. (this is also verifiable in the same manner). If I think a priori that a "considerable number of radicals became lost" is because the lost terms are common in all languages I know in the form of simple unanalysable items. It is no matter my opinion because there are veriafiable facts that can confirm or deny this claim. >(2) These kind of examples are numerous in agglutinative languages like Nahuatl >but there are plenty in other languages too ! Certainly, the evidence that I stated is very weak. I know a little turkish and basque and it is my opinion that nahuatl has a little more propensity; but this is only an opinion. >Did you notice that desayunar (like breakfast and d?jeuner) are compounds ? These are more culture dependent terms. (des-ayun-ar is a derivate no a compound). but the question not this. Hoewever I find your observations are valuable! Ma tipahtican! David S. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Mon Feb 19 09:04:22 2001 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:04:22 GMT Subject: No subject Message-ID: "David Sanchez" write:- > In a personal conversation with a member of this group, we wondered that > nahuatl can express so many terms with a very reducted set of radical items. ... > In fact I've heard the number of radicals used is only around 1000!!! > This is a prototypical situation in PIDGINS and CREOLES ... Or some ancestor of Nawatl underwent a bout of phonetic change that left it with an excessive homophone overload, and for clarity it had to rename many things. For example, in the history of English the duck (bird) had to get a new name when its old name fell identical with the word "end". In Dutch they are still distinct (`eend' = "duck", `eind' = "end"; the noun "duck" came from the verb "duck" = "dive", compare Dutch `duiker' = "diver"). From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Mon Feb 19 13:35:22 2001 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:35:22 GMT Subject: No subject Message-ID: "David Sanchez" wrote:- > In a personal conversation with a member of this group, we wondered that > nahuatl can express so many terms with a very reducted set of radical items. ... > In fact I've heard the number of radicals used is only around 1000!!! > This is a prototypical situation in PIDGINS and CREOLES ... With "ankle", the same is true for English. It looks like a simple root word, but it came not from its own root but from the Common Indo-European root {ang} = "narrow". Likeways English "elbow", which came from two roots meaning "forearm bend". The same happened in French with the bee :: its Latin name "apis" reduced in French via "ef" to merely "e" (which should have an acute accent), which is so easily lost among other words that part of France renamed it the "honey fly" (mouche-a`-miel) and part took the word "abeille" from Occitanian. Citlalyani From jrader at Merriam-Webster.com Tue Feb 20 17:47:35 2001 From: jrader at Merriam-Webster.com (Jim Rader) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:47:35 -0500 Subject: Pidiginization in nawatl ? Message-ID: Lyle Campbell has pointed out, in a _Language_ article of 1986 and some other places, that kenning-like compounds are a Mesoamerican areal feature with some cross-linguistic sharing of metaphor, so that they look like a set of loan-translations, whatever language they originated in. I don't know enough about languages other than Nahuatl to give examples, but maybe others on the list can. Some Campbell mentions are the following (the Nahuatl equivalents are my addition, and subject to correction): "boa" = deer-snake (maza:co:a:tl) "egg" = bird-stone/bone (to:toltetl) "door" = "house-mouth" (Nahuatl cali:xtli is more like "house-eye," and doesn't exactly mean "door") "eye" = face-fruit/seed (no such compound in Nahuatl, as far as I know, but i:xtli means both "face" and "eye") "wrist" = hand-neck (maquechtli) "knee" = "leg-head" (Nahuatl tlancua:itl has "head," but the identity of the first element doesn't seem to be clear) My gut feeling is that some languages just do this, and pidginization is not really a factor, though strong influence from adjacent languages may be. Northwest Caucasian languages (Circassian, Abkhaz) also tend to use fairly transparent compounds for body parts and other fairly basic vocabulary items. Jim Rader From dakin at servidor.unam.mx Tue Feb 20 18:44:39 2001 From: dakin at servidor.unam.mx (Karen Dakin) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:44:39 -0600 Subject: Pidiginization in nawatl ? Message-ID: on 2/20/01 11:47 AM, Jim Rader at jrader at Merriam-Webster.com wrote: > Lyle Campbell has pointed out, in a _Language_ article of 1986 and > some other places, [stuff snipped] Just to be a bit more precise, that article was by Lyle Campbell, Terrence Kaufman and Thomas Smith-Stark, and Smith-Stark provided the detail about all the compounds, including distribution maps, etc., in a 1982 paper, "Mesoamerican Calques" later published in Investigaciones Ling??sticas en Mesoam?rica, edited by Carolyn J. MacKay and Veronica Vazquez, Instituto de Investigaciones Filologicas, UNAM, Mexico, DF, 1994. Pp. 15-52, for anyone interested. Also to add to comments to the general question on compounding and pidgins with relation to Nahuatl, I think proto-Uto-Aztecan was a compounding language basically, perhaps best seen reflected in the Numic languages' use of instrumental prefixes -- look for example at Jon Dayley's T?mpisa(Panamint) Shoshone grammar and dictionary published by the University of California. The instrumental prefixes show up frozen in Nahuatl words like chikiwitl and tlapa:ni, and are also found in other languages, as pointed out by several linguists. My conclusions have been that Nahuatl through phonological change has fused old compounds into what look like single morphemes in many cases (*se(-)wa-ci- > xo:chi-, for example. One could perhaps consider compounding as one of the productive processes inherited along with the language, and for that reason it continues to be used to make new words. From william at amacalli.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 16:28:16 2001 From: william at amacalli.demon.co.uk (Bill W.) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:28:16 -0000 Subject: brushes and pens Message-ID: Does anyone have references concerning pre-conquest writing and painting implements? I've found a bit about Maya brushes and quills, but so far no mention of what exactly the Mexica used to paint their books with. Did they have the same kind of reed-brush as the Maya? Were similar tools used throughout all Meso-American cultures? I'd be grateful for any enlightenment that can be offered on the subject. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Fri Feb 23 16:42:49 2001 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:42:49 -0700 Subject: FUAC 2001 / Taller de los Amigos de las Lenguas Yutoaztecas 2001 - Santa Barbara Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 01:30:32 -0600 Subject: FUAC 2001 / Taller de los Amigos de las Lenguas Yutoaztecas 2001 - Santa Barbara From: Karen Dakin CALL FOR PAPERS, 2001 FRIENDS OF UTO-AZTECAN MEETING/TALLER DE LOS AMIGOS DE LAS LENGUAS YUTOAZTECAS 2001 -- CONVOCATORIA PARA LE ENVIO DE LOS TITULOS Following three conferences in Mexico, we are happy that John Johnson has invited us to the Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History for the 2001 Friends of Uto-Aztecan Working Conference / Taller de los Amigos de las Lenguas Yutoaztecas, July 8-9 (Sunday-Monday). Since the Linguistic Institute will be held at the University of California-Santa Barbara, , the FUAC meeting will have one joint session with the SSILA-WAIL meetings, organized by Marianne Mithun and Greg Brown, which are July 6-7 at the University of California-Santa Barbara. The Seminario de Lenguas Ind?genas, Instituto de Investigaciones Filol?gicas, UNAM, is organizing the program. Karen Dakin Mercedes Montes de Oca Veronica Vazquez dakin at servidor.unam.mx mercemo at attglobal.net gvvs at servidor.unam.mx Housing information provided by Marianne Mithun for the SSILA meeting is given in the SSILA announcement which we have included at the end of this call. If you want to stay on campus, you should say that you are attending the SSILA meeting, since the arrangement is for them. There is also a possibility that Friends of the Museum may accept weekend guests for the FUAC meeting, so please make your inquiries with John Johnson. John R. Johnson, Ph.D. Curator of Anthropology Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History 2559 Puesta del Sol Santa Barbara, CA 93105-2998 PH: (805)682-4711 x306 FAX: (805) 569-3170 e-mail: jjohnson at sbnature2.org Homepage: http://www.sbnature.org Name: Address: _____ Yes, I do plan to attend this year's FUAC meeting July 8-9 at the Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History in Santa Barbara, California. My paper title is: _____ No, I do not plan to attend, but would like to receive a copy of the program and remain on the mailing list for 2002. I am now available by E-mail; my address is: I can receive faxes; my fax number is: Return to: Please send titles by 20 April Please send this form to dakin at servidor.unam.mx Mailing address: SLI, Instituto de Investigaciones Filol?gicas Cto. Mario de la Cueva s/n UNAM Mexico, DF 04510 PH: (011)(52-5) 622-7489, FAX (011)(52-5) 622-7495. *************************************************************************** TALLER DE LOS AMIGOS DE LAS LENGUAS YUTOAZTECAS 2001 CONVOCATORIA PARA EL ENVIO DE TITULOS Despu?s de haber tenido tres reuniones en M?xico estamos contentos de que John Johnson nos haya invitado al Museo de Historia Natural de Santa Barbara como sede de la sesi?n del Taller de los Amigos de las Lenguas Yutoaztecas del 2001 que tendr? lugar los d?as 8 y 9 de julio (Domingo y Lunes). Debido a que el Instituto Ling??stico, , se llevar? a cabo en la Universidad de California- Santa Barbara, la reuni?n de FUAC tendr? una sesi?n conjunta con la reuni?n de SSILA -WAIL organizada por Marianne Mithun, que est? programada para el 6,7,(8)de julio. El Seminario de Lenguas Ind?genas del Instituto de Investigaciones Filol?gicas, UNAM est? organizando el programa de este evento. Karen Dakin Mercedes Montes de Oca Veronica Vazquez dakin at servidor.unam.mx mercemo at attglobal.net gvvs at servidor.unam.mx La informaci?n sobre las opciones de alojamiento ha sido proporcionada por Marianne Mithun para el encuentro de SSILA, la cual incluimos con el anuncio de SSILA al final. Si quieren quedarse en la Universidad, hay que decir que es para asistir a la reuni?n de SSILA, dado que el arreglo es para ellos. Tambi?n existe la posibilidad de que los Amigos del Museo puedan aceptar invitados para el fin de semana de la reuni?n de FUAC, para esto deben ponerse en contacto con John Johnson. Organizaci?n en Santa Barbara: John R. Johnson, Ph.D. Curator of Anthropology Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History 2559 Puesta del Sol Santa Barbara, CA 93105-2998 TEL: (805)682-4711 x306 FAX: (805) 569-3170 e-mail: jjohnson at sbnature2.org Homepage: http://www.sbnature.org Nombre Direcci?n ______Si voy a asistir a la reuni?n de FUAC este a?o, el 8, 9 de Julio, en el Museo de Historia Natural en Santa B?rbara, California. _____No, no voy a asistir a la reuni?n pero me gustar?a recibir una copia del programa y permanecer en la lista para el 2002. Mi direcci?n de correo electr?nico es _____________________________________ Mi n?mero de fax_________________________________________________ Fecha l?mite para env?o de t?tulos: 20 de abril 2001 Favor de mandar su respuesta a dakin at servidor.unam.mx o a la siguiente direcci?n. SLI, Instituto de Investigaciones Filol?gicas Cto. Mario de la Cueva s/n UNAM Mexico, DF 04510 TEL: (011)(52-5) 622-7489, FAX (011)(52-5) 622-7495. ******************************************************************** July 6-7 SSILA MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT: The 2001 SSILA Summer Meeting will take place on the weekend of July 6-7, on the University of California campus at Santa Barbara, in conjunction with the LSA Linguistic Institute. The meeting will be co-hosted by WAIL (the Santa Barbara Workshop on American Indigenous Languages). Local organizers will be Marianne Mithun and Greg Brown. The WAIL/SSILA meeting will be directly followed on Sunday July 8 by the annual meeting of the Friends of Uto-Aztecan, to be held at the Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History. Members of SSILA and others who would like to present a paper are asked to submit an abstract by *March 15*, preferably by e-mail to _both_ of the following addresses: Marianne Mithun Gregory L Brown If e-mail is not possible, then abstracts may be sent by snail-mail to: WAIL/SSILA Conference Department of Linguistics University of California Santa Barbara, CA 93106 Abstracts may also be sent by fax to: 1-805-563-1948 The preliminary program will be announced around April 1. This early deadline has been set in order to allow participants to make travel and lodging plans in good time. A small registration fee will be charged to cover the cost of the meeting space, coffee, and a supper party on Saturday evening. Participants who register for the meeting before May 1 will be charged the "early bird" fee of $25; after May 1 (including at the time of the meeting) the fee will be $35. To register, please mail a check (payable to "WAIL"), together with the following information: Name Address E-mail address Paper title (if any) Lodging arrangements (if you have made them) to the snail-mail address above. Santa Barbara is a favorite destination for visitors during the summer months and as a result, hotel rooms will be scarce and expensive. With the Linguistic Institute in town, there will be even greater pressure on the usual resources. WAIL/SSILA participants are encouraged to make lodging and travel plans as early as possible. On-campus lodging in the San Rafael Guest House will be available to WAIL/SSILA participants during the conference. The dormitory rooms are part of suites containing a common living area and bathroom. There are two to four private bedrooms in each suite. The current rate for on-campus housing is $50 per night, with additional fees for parking. Meals are not provided with these accommodations, but will be available in other campus residence halls. The person to contact for a reservation is Miki Swick, Manager of Campus Campus Conference Services, Housing & Residential Services. Her e-mail address is , her fax is 1-805-893-7287, and her mailing address is: Santa Rosa Administrative Center, UCSB, University of California, Santa Barbara, CA 93106. Be sure to mention that you will be attending the SSILA/WAIL conference. A selective list of off-campus accommodations is available and will be distributed with the January SSILA Newsletter. It will also be posted at the SSILA website, together with other meeting information. Further questions should be addressed to the meeting organizers. From cristi at ix.netcom.com Fri Feb 23 18:52:21 2001 From: cristi at ix.netcom.com (cristi at ix.netcom.com) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:52:21 -0700 Subject: brushes and pens In-Reply-To: <000d01c09db5$ad821a00$0b1adec2@amacalli> Message-ID: From: "Bill W." To: "nahuat-l newsgroup" Subject: brushes and pens Date sent: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:28:16 -0000 Send reply to: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu > Does anyone have references concerning pre-conquest writing and > painting implements? I've found a bit about Maya brushes and quills, > but so far no mention of what exactly the Mexica used to paint their > books with. Did they have the same kind of reed-brush as the Maya? > Were similar tools used throughout all Meso-American cultures? > > I'd be grateful for any enlightenment that can be offered on the > subject. > What a great question. I would love to know, too! Cristi From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at Sat Feb 24 18:29:49 2001 From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 19:29:49 +0100 Subject: brushes and pens Message-ID: Unfortunately the colonial sources are giving less information about painting tools than about the process of making amatl-paper or the use of colours. As Michael Coe and Justin Kerr are pointing out, the Maya scribes used quill and reed pens and conches as painting pots (cf Michael Coe/Justin Kerr 1997: The Art of the Maya scribe. London; cf also J Kerr?s web essai: http://www.mayavase.com/sabak/sabak.html ). For the Maya, writing implements are documented by grave goods and iconography (cf the Grolier Codex or some vessels of Kerr?s Maya vase database at famsi.org). Brushes are also depicted in Mixtec and Nahua codices such as C. Mendoza, Telleriano-Remensis (with a female tlacuilo) or C. Vindobonensis. Nelly Guti?rrez Solana (C?dices de M?xico. M?xico 1992) mentions rabbit brushes used by the Mexica (if I remember well - don?t have the book here at hand). Fray Molina?s "Vocabulario" (1555) lists the following the devices: a) painting pots: - tliltecomatl (tintero para pintar) - tlacuiloltecomatl (paint container) b) tlacuiloluapalli - tablilla para escribir c) totolacatecomatl - caja de escriban?a (totolin-acatl-tecomatl): so the Mexica used also (at least in the colonial period) turkey pens (totolacatl) ... hope that helps a bit Juergen Stowasser PS: Maybe someone of the list-memebers knows more about archaeological evidence of brushes and paint containers in Central Mexico? -- Juergen Stowasser Burggasse 114/2/8 A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a Austria tel: 01/ 524 54 60 v 0676/ 398 66 79 http://www.univie.ac.at/meso From pthajovs at midway.uchicago.edu Sat Feb 24 18:30:46 2001 From: pthajovs at midway.uchicago.edu (patrick thomas hajovsky) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 12:30:46 -0600 Subject: brushes and pens In-Reply-To: <000d01c09db5$ad821a00$0b1adec2@amacalli> Message-ID: There may be some information in Sahagun (Book 2?), since he describes native artists and art production. Also, there is a lot of archaeological evidence from Teotihuacan. I've seen images of pallettes and tools. If you're interested, I can look up the bib. later this week. Patrick _______________________________ ixquich in pepetlaca xteocuitla On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Bill W. wrote: > Does anyone have references concerning pre-conquest writing and painting implements? I've found a bit about Maya brushes and quills, but so far no mention of what exactly the Mexica used to paint their books with. Did they have the same kind of reed-brush as the Maya? Were similar tools used throughout all Meso-American cultures? > > I'd be grateful for any enlightenment that can be offered on the subject. > > > From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at Sat Feb 24 20:26:44 2001 From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 21:26:44 +0100 Subject: brushes and pens Message-ID: that?s Sahag?n lib. X cap.8 (but doesn?t mention any implement) best juergen patrick thomas hajovsky schrieb: > There may be some information in Sahagun (Book 2?), since he describes > native artists and art production. > > Also, there is a lot of archaeological evidence from Teotihuacan. I've > seen images of pallettes and tools. If you're interested, I can look up > the bib. later this week. > > Patrick > _______________________________ > ixquich in pepetlaca xteocuitla > > On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Bill W. wrote: > > > Does anyone have references concerning pre-conquest writing and painting implements? I've found a bit about Maya brushes and quills, but so far no mention of what exactly the Mexica used to paint their books with. Did they have the same kind of reed-brush as the Maya? Were similar tools used throughout all Meso-American cultures? > > > > I'd be grateful for any enlightenment that can be offered on the subject. > > > > > > -- Juergen Stowasser Burggasse 114/2/8 A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a Austria tel: 01/ 524 54 60 v 0676/ 398 66 79 http://www.univie.ac.at/meso From js9211 at csc.albany.edu Tue Feb 27 16:15:20 2001 From: js9211 at csc.albany.edu (SANCHEZ JOANNA M) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:15:20 -0500 Subject: quetzalteueyac Message-ID: I am wondering what people think about the name "queztalteueac" as I am analyzing the Historia T-C. Specifically, what would be the sense imparted by 'tehuia' in this construction given the role of this figure in the emergence from Chicomoztoc? Thanks. Joanna Sanchez From karttu at nantucket.net Tue Feb 27 20:19:54 2001 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:19:54 -0500 Subject: quetzalteueyac Message-ID: I would be cautious about analyzing this as quetzal- plus transitive tehuia 'to strike something [in this case the quetzal] with stones.' Not only do you find -tehue- rather than -tehui- in this name, but you find -ac at the end, not the preterite form one would get with a class 3 -ia verb used as an attributive. I would like to read this as 'he has caused people to rise up in the manner of quetzal plumage.' But alas, the -ehuac preterite form of the verb ehua is the intransitive form. If we were to read it as "he has risen up in the manner of quetzal plumage,' then I can't account for the internal -t-. Does anyone else have a solution to this? Fran ---------- >From: SANCHEZ JOANNA M >Subject: quetzalteueyac >Date: Tue, Feb 27, 2001, 11:15 AM > > I am wondering what people think about the name "queztalteueac" > as I am analyzing the Historia T-C. > Specifically, what would be the sense imparted by 'tehuia' in this > construction given the role of this figure in the emergence from > Chicomoztoc? Thanks. Joanna Sanchez > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Feb 27 20:56:19 2001 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:56:19 -0500 Subject: quetzalteueyac In-Reply-To: <200102272022.PAA31195@nantucket.net> Message-ID: I don't know offhand, but this looks like . On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Frances Karttunen wrote: > I would be cautious about analyzing this as quetzal- plus transitive tehuia > 'to strike something [in this case the quetzal] with stones.' Not only do > you find -tehue- rather than -tehui- in this name, but you find -ac at the > end, not the preterite form one would get with a class 3 -ia verb used as an > attributive. > > I would like to read this as 'he has caused people to rise up in the manner > of quetzal plumage.' But alas, the -ehuac preterite form of the verb ehua > is the intransitive form. If we were to read it as "he has risen up in the > manner of quetzal plumage,' then I can't account for the internal -t-. > > Does anyone else have a solution to this? > > Fran > > ---------- > >From: SANCHEZ JOANNA M > >Subject: quetzalteueyac > >Date: Tue, Feb 27, 2001, 11:15 AM > > > > > I am wondering what people think about the name "queztalteueac" > > as I am analyzing the Historia T-C. > > Specifically, what would be the sense imparted by 'tehuia' in this > > construction given the role of this figure in the emergence from > > Chicomoztoc? Thanks. Joanna Sanchez > > > > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." -Albert Einstein From AscheAsh2 at aol.com Tue Feb 27 21:41:58 2001 From: AscheAsh2 at aol.com (AscheAsh2 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:41:58 EST Subject: FUAC 2001 / Taller de los Amigos de las Lenguas Yutoaztecas 2001 - Santa... Message-ID: In einer eMail vom 23.02.01 17:45:37 (MEZ) Mitteleurop?ische Zeit schreibt schwallr at selway.umt.edu: << _____ No, I do not plan to attend, but would like to receive a copy of the program and remain on the mailing list for 2002. I am now available by E-mail; my address is: I can receive faxes; my fax number is: >> (49)403603 From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Feb 28 11:23:11 2001 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 06:23:11 -0500 Subject: quetzalteueyac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My apologies to the list for this response. I had not properly read Dr. Karttunen's message before I sent mine out. Since the list is not monitored, such trash will occasionally appear. Michael On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > I don't know offhand, but this looks like . > > > > On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Frances Karttunen wrote: > > > I would be cautious about analyzing this as quetzal- plus transitive tehuia > > 'to strike something [in this case the quetzal] with stones.' Not only do > > you find -tehue- rather than -tehui- in this name, but you find -ac at the > > end, not the preterite form one would get with a class 3 -ia verb used as an > > attributive. > > > > I would like to read this as 'he has caused people to rise up in the manner > > of quetzal plumage.' But alas, the -ehuac preterite form of the verb ehua > > is the intransitive form. If we were to read it as "he has risen up in the > > manner of quetzal plumage,' then I can't account for the internal -t-. > > > > Does anyone else have a solution to this? > > > > Fran > > > > ---------- > > >From: SANCHEZ JOANNA M > > >Subject: quetzalteueyac > > >Date: Tue, Feb 27, 2001, 11:15 AM > > > > > > > > I am wondering what people think about the name "queztalteueac" > > > as I am analyzing the Historia T-C. > > > Specifically, what would be the sense imparted by 'tehuia' in this > > > construction given the role of this figure in the emergence from > > > Chicomoztoc? Thanks. Joanna Sanchez > > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael McCafferty > 307 Memorial Hall > Indiana University > Bloomington, Indiana > 47405 > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > "There are only two ways to live your life. > One is as though nothing is a miracle. > The other is as though everything is a miracle." > > -Albert Einstein > > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." -Albert Einstein From mdmorris at indiana.edu Wed Feb 28 18:18:49 2001 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:18:49 -0500 Subject: quetzalteueyac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael, I also find quetzaltehueyac the easiest orthographic reading, but likewise can make little good of it, so don't worry about the disparate. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.