From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Jan  2 15:24:48 2001
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 08:24:48 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Re: Nahuatl Dominant Word Order ; origin of [tl]
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.082448.0700.>

>Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 09:27:11 +0000
>From: Anthony Appleyard <Anthony at buckrogers.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Nahuatl Dominant Word Order ; origin of [tl]
>
>Please forward to Nahuat-l group:-
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>(1) It has been pointed out that the same Nahuatl sentence could mean
>e.g. "the dog chased the cat" and also "the cat chased the dog" and both
>possible meanings make sense, in a language with no accusative case
>marker and free word order. Could it be that the common Nahuatl habit of
>embedding the object in the verb, arose to resolve such ambiguities?
>
>(2) I found a Nahuatl-related WWW file that said that Nahuatl [tl] arose
>from early Ute-Aztecan [t] when followed by [a] If so, what is the
>origin of [tl] in e.g. "tlehco:" = "to ascend", and in the absolutive
>suffix [-tl(i)]?
>--
>Anthony Appleyard


From maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu  Mon Jan  1 19:39:59 2001
From: maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 12:39:59 -0700
Subject: Research into the historical usage of the word "Apache"
Message-ID: <MON.1.JAN.2001.123959.0700.>

Does anybody recall or know if there has been articles or chapters written
about the possibility that the word "Apache" was brought up from south of
the Rio Grande by Juna de Onate and other colonists, rather than adopted
from the Zuni word for enemy. Martha Stone explains that usage of Apache
among Danzantes Concheros referred to the use of "pachtli" in
ritual. Dolores Gunnerson explains that Apache could possibly be related
to the Nahuatl word Mapache, meaning racoon due to certain face adornment
among Southern Athapaskans in the 16th and 17th century. This is what I
am familiar with and would appreciate any help in finding more detailed
r resources on the subject.
Thank you,
Enrique Maestas


From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk  Tue Jan  2 10:03:16 2001
From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:03:16 GMT
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.100316.GMT.>

"Davius Sanctex" <davius_sanctex at hotmail.com> wrote:-
 > La primera muestra, "Ceh huelta onia Acapulco", la de Lidia Cedillo,...

Which reminds me: Karttunen's book says that the name Acapulco / Acapo:lco
means "at the big useless reeds". Before the original native settlement was
obliterated by holiday resort buildings, what did the name refer to? Was the
natives' fishing boat harbor choked with Californian Giant Kelp, or what?

Anthony Appleyard


From micc at home.com  Tue Jan  2 18:52:17 2001
From: micc at home.com (mario)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:52:17 -0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.105217.0800.>

I always thought that the word "acatl" meant cane, not reed.  Isn't the word
"to:lli" the correct one for reed?


mario e. aguilar
www.mexicayotl.org

Anthony Appleyard wrote:

> "Davius Sanctex" <davius_sanctex at hotmail.com> wrote:-
>  > La primera muestra, "Ceh huelta onia Acapulco", la de Lidia Cedillo,...
>
> Which reminds me: Karttunen's book says that the name Acapulco / Acapo:lco
> means "at the big useless reeds". Before the original native settlement was
> obliterated by holiday resort buildings, what did the name refer to? Was the
> natives' fishing boat harbor choked with Californian Giant Kelp, or what?
>
> Anthony Appleyard


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Jan  2 18:59:15 2001
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:59:15 -0700
Subject: translation nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <F1393DjFbUcOV1EetVo0000b3f9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.115915.0700.>

These are all included in the introductory vocabulary of the Campbell and
Karttunen _Foundation Course_

At 06:26 PM 1/2/01 +0000, you wrote:
>Can someone to give nahuatl equivalents
>of the following english words:
>
>-skin





John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                               http://www.umt.edu/provost/


From davius_sanctex at hotmail.com  Tue Jan  2 18:26:38 2001
From: davius_sanctex at hotmail.com (Davius Sanctex)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 18:26:38 -0000
Subject: translation nahuatl
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.182638.0000.>

Can someone to give nahuatl equivalents
of the following english words:

-skin
-knee
-liver
-bone
-claw
-horn
-tail
-fat(greasy substance)
-bark
-seed
-ashes
-green
-yellow
-dry
-full

Thank you
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Tue Jan  2 19:29:43 2001
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:29:43 -0600
Subject: translation nahuatl
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.132943.0600.>

I tried to find this book on Amazon.com recently, with no success. Is there any way to order one?

David Wright
  ----- Mensaje original ----- 
  De: John F. Schwaller 
  Para: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu 
  Enviado: Martes 2 de Enero de 2001 12:59 PM
  Asunto: Re: translation nahuatl


  These are all included in the introductory vocabulary of the Campbell and 
  Karttunen _Foundation Course_

  At 06:26 PM 1/2/01 +0000, you wrote:
  >Can someone to give nahuatl equivalents
  >of the following english words:
  >
  >-skin





  John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
  Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
  The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                                 http://www.umt.edu/provost/

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From carolandmike at eudoramail.com  Tue Jan  2 20:02:17 2001
From: carolandmike at eudoramail.com (Michael L. Lewis)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:02:17 -0800
Subject: translation nahuatl
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.120217.0800.>

--
   To which list, please add the name Battle Eagle.

      Thanks.



On Tue, 02 Jan 2001 18:26:38   Davius Sanctex wrote:
>Can someone to give nahuatl equivalents
>of the following english words:
>
>-skin
>-knee
>-liver
>-bone
>-claw
>-horn
>-tail
>-fat(greasy substance)
>-bark
>-seed
>-ashes
>-green
>-yellow
>-dry
>-full
>
>Thank you
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com


From avocaudle at home.com  Tue Jan  2 19:28:24 2001
From: avocaudle at home.com (alicia caudle)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:28:24 -0800
Subject: translation nahuatl
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.112824.0800.>

The following four are the only ones that I can help with:

 > -skin
 > -knee
 > -liver
 > -bone
 > -claw
 > -horn - cuacuahuitl
 > -tail
 > -fat
 > -bark
 > -seed - xinachtli
 > -ashes
 > -green - xoxoctic
 > -yellow - kostik
 > -dry
 > -full


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Jan  2 20:26:35 2001
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:26:35 -0700
Subject: translation nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <004301c074f2$5f7e6340$0ebee994@prodigy.net.mx>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.132635.0700.>

Follow the instruction on the following:

http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/hotlinks.htm

At 01:29 PM 1/2/01 -0600, you wrote:
>I tried to find this book on Amazon.com recently, with no success. Is
>there any way to order one?
>
>David Wright
>>----- Mensaje original -----
>>De: <mailto:schwallr at selway.umt.edu>John F. Schwaller
>>Para: <mailto:nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
>>Enviado: Martes 2 de Enero de 2001 12:59 PM
>>Asunto: Re: translation nahuatl
>>
>>These are all included in the introductory vocabulary of the Campbell and
>>Karttunen _Foundation Course_
>>
>>At 06:26 PM 1/2/01 +0000, you wrote:
>> >Can someone to give nahuatl equivalents
>> >of the following english words:
>> >
>> >-skin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>John Frederick
>>Schwaller
>><mailto:schwallr at selway.umt.edu>schwallr at selway.umt.edu
>>Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
>>The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>>
>><http://www.umt.edu/provost/>http://www.umt.edu/provost/
>
>John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
>Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
>The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>                               http://www.umt.edu/provost/
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From davius_sanctex at hotmail.com  Tue Jan  2 22:49:40 2001
From: davius_sanctex at hotmail.com (Davius Sanctex)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:49:40 -0000
Subject: Origin of [tl]
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.224940.0000.>

I found a Nahuatl-related WWW file that said that Nahuatl [tl]
>arose from early Ute-Aztecan [t] when followed by [a] If so, what is >the
>origin of [tl] in e.g. "tlehco:" = "to ascend", and in the absolutive
>suffix [-tl(i)]?

I have completed a list of uto-aztecan cognates and there are
difficult examples. Regular and tipical examples are:
_____________________________________________________
Hopi  Nawatl  Comanche Pima   Yaqui  Raramuri Warihio

t     tl      t        t/ch   t      r        t
tama  tlantli ta:ma    tatami tami   ram�     tame  'tooth'
taqa  tlakatl tenahp�  cheoj         rihoy    tihoe 'man'

t     t       t        t/ch   t      r        t
      te:ntli t�:pe    chini  te:ni  rin�           'mouth'
      tetl    t�p�            teta            tehte 'stone'

_____________________________________________________
Difficult exemples are:

Hopi  Nawatl  Comanche Pima   Yaqui  Raramuri Warihio
      tletl                   taya   rah�     taha  'fire, burn'
      kechtli                 kutana: kup�    kupa  'neck'
_____________________________________________________

1)I think that the first of these two problematic exemples
can be explained by later palatalization:
*tay- > *tlay- > tle-

2)About second exemple we can argue that roots: kut- are
not related to kech- (I think this is the case).

But still remain some difficulties ... what about words like: tahtli
'father'(a totonac loanword ?), tli:lli 'black' ...
and, of course, tlehco: 'ascend' [It's possible examples of
"tle" being explained by forms in "*tlay", but this argument
doesn't seem explain "tli" examples.

Finally a question about suffix -tl: is this suffix related
to "-ra" <*-ta [found in Tarahumara (raramuri) and Warihio]?
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jan  3 11:48:31 2001
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 06:48:31 -0500
Subject: translation nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <F1393DjFbUcOV1EetVo0000b3f9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.3.JAN.2001.064831.0500.>

Dave,

This sort of list bespeaks a need to get a book. But here are most of your
request.



On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Davius Sanctex wrote:

> Can someone to give nahuatl equivalents
> of the following english words:
>
> -skin: ehuatl (same as "bark"...unless you mean what a dog does)
> -knee: tlancuaitl
> -liver: elli
> -bone: omitl
> -claw: cuacuahtli
> -horn: I don't know.
> -tail: I forget off hand
> -fat(greasy substance): in Proto-Algonquian /pemi/
> -bark: see "skin"
> -seed: I don't know
> -ashes: nextli
> -green: xoxoctic
> -yellow: coztic
> -dry: huaqui
> -full: It kinda depends on what you're talking about. So, I can't help
you at this point.


MIchael

Michael McCafferty


From karttu at nantucket.net  Wed Jan  3 12:09:03 2001
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:09:03 -0500
Subject: Origin of [tl]
Message-ID: <WED.3.JAN.2001.070903.0500.>

These are all good examples, but before anybody goes very far in reinventing
the wheel, may I suggest going back to the original published literature on
the subject, consulting Wick Miller's Uto-Aztecan cognate list, and asking
Karen Dakin and Una Canger for their thoughts on the apparently exceptional
cases.

To add to the less transparent examples of tlV where V is not a, there is
tlohtli 'hawk' and -tloc 'near to, adjacent to' (cf. the difrasismo tloqueh
na:huaqueh 'the universal and all-pervading (deity)'.

Fran

----------
>From: "Davius Sanctex" <davius_sanctex at hotmail.com>
>To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
>Subject: Re: Origin of [tl]
>Date: Tue, Jan 2, 2001, 5:49 PM
>

>
> I found a Nahuatl-related WWW file that said that Nahuatl [tl]
>>arose from early Ute-Aztecan [t] when followed by [a] If so, what is >the
>>origin of [tl] in e.g. "tlehco:" = "to ascend", and in the absolutive
>>suffix [-tl(i)]?
>
> I have completed a list of uto-aztecan cognates and there are
> difficult examples. Regular and tipical examples are:
> _____________________________________________________
> Hopi  Nawatl  Comanche Pima   Yaqui  Raramuri Warihio
>
> t     tl      t        t/ch   t      r        t
> tama  tlantli ta:ma    tatami tami   ramé     tame  'tooth'
> taqa  tlakatl tenahpï  cheoj         rihoy    tihoe 'man'
>
> t     t       t        t/ch   t      r        t
>       te:ntli tï:pe    chini  te:ni  riní           'mouth'
>       tetl    tïpï            teta            tehte 'stone'
>
> _____________________________________________________
> Difficult exemples are:
>
> Hopi  Nawatl  Comanche Pima   Yaqui  Raramuri Warihio
>       tletl                   taya   rahá     taha  'fire, burn'
>       kechtli                 kutana: kupá    kupa  'neck'
> _____________________________________________________
>
> 1)I think that the first of these two problematic exemples
> can be explained by later palatalization:
> *tay- > *tlay- > tle-
>
> 2)About second exemple we can argue that roots: kut- are
> not related to kech- (I think this is the case).
>
> But still remain some difficulties ... what about words like: tahtli
> 'father'(a totonac loanword ?), tli:lli 'black' ...
> and, of course, tlehco: 'ascend' [It's possible examples of
> "tle" being explained by forms in "*tlay", but this argument
> doesn't seem explain "tli" examples.
>
> Finally a question about suffix -tl: is this suffix related
> to "-ra" <*-ta [found in Tarahumara (raramuri) and Warihio]?
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>


From karttu at nantucket.net  Wed Jan  3 12:33:10 2001
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:33:10 -0500
Subject: <no subject>
Message-ID: <WED.3.JAN.2001.073310.0500.>

Cane in the sense of sugar cane was introduced into the Americas by the
Spaniards and Portuguese, who had spread its cultivation from the
Mediterranean to the Atlantic islands (Canaries, Madeira, the islands of the
Caribbean) before they finally reached the mainland.

The word acatl pre-existed the introduction of sugar cane.  It is a
calendrical name in most or all of the Mesoamerican calendars.  Few
languages have just one single "correct" word for each thing.  Both to:lli
and acatl referred to stuff we would think of as reeds.  Have a look at some
calendrical symbols and compare them to what appears in To:lla:n (Tula,
Tulancingo) glyphs.

No giant kelp as far as I know (but I sure saw some great giant kelp while
kayaking in Alaska recently).

----------
>From: mario <micc at home.com>
>To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
>Subject: Re:
>Date: Tue, Jan 2, 2001, 1:52 PM
>

> I always thought that the word "acatl" meant cane, not reed.  Isn't the word
> "to:lli" the correct one for reed?
>
>
> mario e. aguilar
> www.mexicayotl.org
>
> Anthony Appleyard wrote:
>
>> "Davius Sanctex" <davius_sanctex at hotmail.com> wrote:-
>>  > La primera muestra, "Ceh huelta onia Acapulco", la de Lidia Cedillo,...
>>
>> Which reminds me: Karttunen's book says that the name Acapulco / Acapo:lco
>> means "at the big useless reeds". Before the original native settlement was
>> obliterated by holiday resort buildings, what did the name refer to? Was the
>> natives' fishing boat harbor choked with Californian Giant Kelp, or what?
>>
>> Anthony Appleyard
>


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jan  3 13:03:39 2001
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 08:03:39 -0500
Subject: speaking of -tl
In-Reply-To: <200101031237.HAA31941@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <WED.3.JAN.2001.080339.0500.>

Does anyone know how the Kwakiutl pronounce their -tl?


Michael McCafferty
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu


From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Thu Jan  4 00:10:46 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (david sanchez)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 01:10:46 +0100
Subject: Origin of [tl]
Message-ID: <THU.4.JAN.2001.011046.0100.>

Can someone recomend to me web site on comparative uto-aztecan?
(Yesterday I consulted about 40 sites on the subjetct but none very
interesting!!!.)

Thank you!
Davius S
__________________________________________________

>These are all good examples, but before anybody goes very far in
reinventing
>the wheel, may I suggest going back to the original published literature on
>the subject, consulting Wick Miller's Uto-Aztecan cognate list, and asking
>Karen Dakin and Una Canger for their thoughts on the apparently exceptional
>cases.

>To add to the less transparent examples of tlV where V is not a, there is
>tlohtli 'hawk' and -tloc 'near to, adjacent to' (cf. the difrasismo tloqueh
>na:huaqueh 'the universal and all-pervading (deity)'.


From karttu at nantucket.net  Thu Jan  4 01:38:07 2001
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 20:38:07 -0500
Subject: Origin of [tl]
Message-ID: <WED.3.JAN.2001.203807.0500.>

For starters, go to the website of the Society for the Study of the
Indigenous Languages of the Americas (ssila.org).  But for the sort of
things you are interested in, the fact of the matter is it's been published
in books and journals.  You really can't expect people to replicate for you
in email what has been over years researched, written, reviewed for
publication, published, and reviewed again.

----------
>From: "david sanchez" <davius_sanctex at terra.es>
>To: <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
>Subject: RE: Origin of [tl]
>Date: Wed, Jan 3, 2001, 7:10 PM
>

>
>
> Can someone recomend to me web site on comparative uto-aztecan?
> (Yesterday I consulted about 40 sites on the subjetct but none very
> interesting!!!.)
>
> Thank you!
> Davius S


From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk  Thu Jan  4 08:09:21 2001
From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:09:21 GMT
Subject: Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl; Andrews's textbooks
Message-ID: <THU.4.JAN.2001.080921.GMT.>

I have Karttunen's 2-volume textbook of Nahuatl for English-speakers. With
thanks to members of this group for information about it. But it does not
include a dictionary of the words used in the examples, but instead it keeps
on referring me to a book called "Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl". Please
what is the bibliographical information about this book?

It also a few times refers me to Andrews's books. Please what is the latest
information about them being re-published? On 14 Dec 2000 John F. Schwaller
schwallr at selway.umt.edu told me that:-

> The Andrews is LONG out of print. It has been accepted for publication in a
> revised version at the University of Oklahoma Press.  I expect it to be
> out in about a year. You can write U Oklahoma Press for more info.

  I thereupon emailed to the University of Oklahoma Press oupress at ou.edu
enquiring about Andrews's books, but they never answered.

Citlalyani


From mhopkins at fas.harvard.edu  Thu Jan  4 16:40:39 2001
From: mhopkins at fas.harvard.edu (Mary Hopkins)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 11:40:39 -0500
Subject: Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl; Andrews's textbooks
In-Reply-To: <200101041554.f04FsW415477@server2.umt.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.4.JAN.2001.114039.0500.>

Companeros:
	A general comment from someone who works in a library.
	If you have a local library, whether public or university, your
reference librarian can easily answer such questions. They'll have a set
of Books in Print, which will tell you where you can get hold of your own
copies of current books. They'll also have access to a database called
OCLC, which has national holdings records and can let them identify other
libraries that may be able to send you copies of books on interlibrary
loan.
	If a book is out of print, a good place to try looking for a copy
to buy is abebooks, which is at http://dogbert.abebooks.com/ It's an
inter-dealer used book service, and although not everything is there on a
given day, many things are, including quite a lot of academic books on
out-of-the-way subjects.
	The Web is handy in a lot of ways, but for this sort of routine
bibliographic information, I'd hit the library first. MH

On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, Anthony Appleyard wrote:

> I have Karttunen's 2-volume textbook of Nahuatl for English-speakers. With
> thanks to members of this group for information about it. But it does not
> include a dictionary of the words used in the examples, but instead it keeps
> on referring me to a book called "Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl". Please
> what is the bibliographical information about this book?
>
> It also a few times refers me to Andrews's books. Please what is the latest
> information about them being re-published? On 14 Dec 2000 John F. Schwaller
> schwallr at selway.umt.edu told me that:-
>
> > The Andrews is LONG out of print. It has been accepted for publication in a
> > revised version at the University of Oklahoma Press.  I expect it to be
> > out in about a year. You can write U Oklahoma Press for more info.
>
>   I thereupon emailed to the University of Oklahoma Press oupress at ou.edu
> enquiring about Andrews's books, but they never answered.
>
> Citlalyani
>
>
>


From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Thu Jan  4 19:59:22 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (david sanchez)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:59:22 +0100
Subject: Origin of [tl]
Message-ID: <THU.4.JAN.2001.205922.0100.>

> For starters, go to the website of the Society for the Study of the
> Indigenous Languages of the Americas (ssila.org).
Thank you very much.

> But for the sort of things you are interested in, the fact of the matter
is it's  >been published in books and journals.  You really can't expect
people to >replicate for you in email

I don't expect that it was absurd ... if someone is not interested in my
comments, there is a good possibility: don't reply! I haven't demanded
any effort od nobody.

> what has been over years researched, written, reviewed for
> publication, published, and reviewed again.
OK! I agree with you.


From kammler at stud.uni-frankfurt.de  Thu Jan  4 19:03:19 2001
From: kammler at stud.uni-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:03:19 +0100
Subject: speaking of -tl
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1010103080303.28700E-100000@ariel.ucs.indian a.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.4.JAN.2001.200319.0100.>

At 08:03 03.01.01 -0500, you wrote:

>Does anyone know how the Kwakiutl pronounce their -tl?
Hi Michael,

Kwak'wala (Kwakiutl language) has a voiceless /tl/ which is about identical
to the respective sound in Nahuatl. There is also a voiced version of this:
/dl/ {were the l-component (lateral fricative) of the affricate is also
voiced}.

Actuallually, the -tl in "Kakiutl" is a misspelling, it represents another
phoneme: the voiceless lateral fricative [l~], the word is hence pronounced
[kwa:gyul~].
In some Nahuatl dialecs you find the voiceless fricative as a devoiced
underlying /l/, e.g. in central Guerrero. /yalwa/ "yesterday" is pronounced
[yal~wa], in rapid speech the /l/ might be further reduced to a mere
aspiration, i.e. [yahwa]. In other dialects without devoicing you might
hear something like [yalowa].

When Spanish exploring ships (like the "Sutil" and the "Mexicana") made
their way up the North West Coast of North America, the explorers were
wondering about possible links between North West Coast languages,
especially Nootka, and Nahuatl, because of some superficial sound
similarities. But there's nothing more to it and actually the languages
sound very different.

asta mostla
Henry

ATTENTION
***Neue Anschrift***New Address***
Henry Kammler
Max-Hirsch-Str.41
D-60386 FRANKFURT/M.
tel. ++49-69-94143915
**********************************


From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Thu Jan  4 20:10:23 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (david sanchez)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 21:10:23 +0100
Subject: speaking of -tl
Message-ID: <THU.4.JAN.2001.211023.0100.>

> Does anyone know how the Kwakiutl pronounce their -tl?

Maddieson (Patterns of sound, 1984) gives the following list
of languages with lateral affricates:

Voiceless lateral:    Haida, Tlingit, Chipewyan, Nootka, Squamish, Navaho,
Wintu, Quileute.
Voiceless aspirated lateral:    Chipewyan, Kwakw'ala (Kwakiutl)
Palatalized voiceless lateral:    Kabardian!!!!
voiced lateral:    Haida, Tlingit

This seems to indicate that /tl/ in Kwakiutl is a pulmonic egressive
voiceless
aspirated lateral affricate.


From Huaxyacac at aol.com  Fri Jan  5 04:51:50 2001
From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:51:50 EST
Subject: Andrews grammar; on-line texts
Message-ID: <THU.4.JAN.2001.235150.EST.>

Dick Andrews told me the other day that the manuscript for the revised
edition is at the press; it has yet to be typeset, however, so I personally
am not holding my breath.

While on the subject of on-line resources, I now have the full text of two
sixteenth-century sources up on my web site: Saville's translation of the
Anonymous Conqueror's Narrative of Some Things of New Spain and Phillips'
translation of the Historia de los Mexicanos por sus pinturas, at

http://anthropology.about.com/library/texts/Mesoamerica/Anonimo/blAnonConToC.h

tm

and

http://anthropology.about.com/library/texts/Mesoamerica/Pinturas/blPinturasTOC

.htm

respectively. Those who know Nahuatl will cringe at the representation of
native names in both (Temestitan, Vichilobos, etc.), but they do contain some
interesting info.

Alec Christensen
About Anthropology Guide
http://anthropology.about.com
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From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Fri Jan  5 23:57:01 2001
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:57:01 -0500
Subject: Andrews grammar; on-line texts
In-Reply-To: <a1.f6acb26.2786ace6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JAN.2001.185701.0500.>

Alec,

Thank you for pointing out these valuable resources, and speaking of such,
is anyone preparing a modern English or Spanish edition of Carochi,
on-line or in print?  I have the UNAM facsimile edition, but I would
certainly would jump on any eye friendly edition of my favorite Nahuatl
grammar.

thanks,
Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From Amapohuani at aol.com  Sat Jan  6 00:34:03 2001
From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 19:34:03 EST
Subject: Andrews grammar; on-line texts
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JAN.2001.193403.EST.>

In a message dated 1/5/01 5:05:57 PM, mdmorris at indiana.edu writes:

<< Alec,

Thank you for pointing out these valuable resources, and speaking of such,
is anyone preparing a modern English or Spanish edition of Carochi,
on-line or in print?  I have the UNAM facsimile edition, but I would
certainly would jump on any eye friendly edition of my favorite Nahuatl
grammar.

thanks,
Mark Morris >>

Listeros:

Yep. Jim Lockhart is working one up - see his OF THINGS OF THE INDIES.

Ye ixquich.
Barry D. Sell


From karttu at nantucket.net  Sat Jan  6 00:44:47 2001
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 19:44:47 -0500
Subject: Andrews grammar; on-line texts
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JAN.2001.194447.0500.>

I hear that an English translation of Carochi by James Lockhart is in press
at Stanford U. Press.  Keep your eye peeled for an announcement.

----------
>From: Mark David Morris <mdmorris at indiana.edu>
>To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
>Subject: Re: Andrews grammar; on-line texts
>Date: Fri, Jan 5, 2001, 6:57 PM
>

> Alec,
>
> Thank you for pointing out these valuable resources, and speaking of such,
> is anyone preparing a modern English or Spanish edition of Carochi,
> on-line or in print?  I have the UNAM facsimile edition, but I would
> certainly would jump on any eye friendly edition of my favorite Nahuatl
> grammar.
>
> thanks,
> Mark Morris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> La muerte tiene permiso a todo
>
> MDM, PhD Candidate
> Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
>
>


From paul at paulbarker.net  Sat Jan  6 13:03:50 2001
From: paul at paulbarker.net (paul at paulbarker.net)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 05:03:50 -0800
Subject: Tracing Nahuatl Poetry
Message-ID: <SAT.6.JAN.2001.050350.0800.>

Hi,

I am new to this list. I am trying to trace the origin and translation of the following two calssical Nahuatl texts, which I collected many years ago from a library in the UK. Is there any one able to help? Many thanks.

1) 	Nihualchocay nihaulicnotlamati �an nicui canitl huiya tlaca anichuicaz yn toxochiuh ohuaye. Maic nina pantiaz cano ximo huaya, huaye. Nihuallaocoya ohuaya, ohuaye�.

2) 	Xictzotzona in mohuehueuh. Xihuehuetzca yc ixtlilxochitle xomittotoao in quauhquAhauc Mexico nic� mocue�alizchimalo cuecueyahau yan temalacatitlan y ximo chicauwaca netleya.

Paul Barker

Music and Information:
http://www.paulbarker.net

New CD of music:
http://www.sargasso.com


From Huaxyacac at aol.com  Sat Jan  6 19:26:01 2001
From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 14:26:01 EST
Subject: Carochi
Message-ID: <SAT.6.JAN.2001.142601.EST.>

We may end up with two English edtions of Carochi, then, since Andrews has
also been working on one. But I suspect if he does finish it it will be some
time yet.

Alec Christensen
About Anthropology Guide
http://anthropology.about.com
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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Sun Jan  7 20:29:00 2001
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:29:00 -0600
Subject: Documentos indigenas
Message-ID: <SUN.7.JAN.2001.142900.0600.>

I would like to share with Nahuat-l subscribers the SUP-INFOR Web site, recently put up by Marc Thouvenot. I'm certain that you will find the free publications very interesting. Most are paleographic versions of documents in Nahuatl; there is also software for analyzing alphabetic and pictographic nahuatl documents. The links also have useful data. The URL is:
http://www.sup-infor.com/index.htm

Happy new year,

David Wright

***********************************************************

Quiero compartir con los suscriptores de Nahuat-l el sitio Web recientemente puesto en linea de Ediciones Sup-Infor. Estoy seguro de que encontraran sumamente interesantes las publicaciones que se ofrecen de manera gratuita en este nuevo sitio, gracias a los esfuerzos de Marc Thouvenot. La mayor parte consiste en versiones paleograficas de documentos en nahuatl. Hay software para el analisis de las escrituras alfabetica y pictografica del centro de Mexico. Los enlaces tambien tienen datos utiles. La URL del sitio mencionado es:
http://www.sup-infor.com/index.htm

Feliz año nuevo,

David Wright
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From kammler at stud.uni-frankfurt.de  Mon Jan  8 17:41:27 2001
From: kammler at stud.uni-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 18:41:27 +0100
Subject: Documentos indigenas
In-Reply-To: <008401c078e8$853eb900$48bee994@prodigy.net.mx>
Message-ID: <MON.8.JAN.2001.184127.0100.>

Tlasokamati, David,
the site looks very promising (partly under construction), it already
contains 48 nahuatl paleographies in text format + two in otomí.  There is
no explanation what the programs are good for, though.

Henry

ATTENTION
***Neue Anschrift***New Address***
Henry Kammler
Max-Hirsch-Str.41
D-60386 FRANKFURT/M.
tel. ++49-69-94143915
**********************************


From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Mon Jan  8 18:19:01 2001
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:19:01 -0600
Subject: Documentos indigenas
Message-ID: <MON.8.JAN.2001.121901.0600.>

Temoa is for searching through the paleographic versions in Nahuatl. The nice feature is that any search will find variant spellings of the same phonetic sequence. For example, a search for "ihuan" will locate ihua, ihuan, ioâ, ioan, iuan, ivâ, ivan, jhoan, joan, juan, jvan, yhua, yhuâ, yhuan, yoa, yoâ, yoan, yuan and yvan. (See article in Amerindia no. 17, 1992).

I haven't used Pohua yet, but I looked at an incipient beta version five years ago. It's a tool for analyzing pictograms in nahuatl documents.
  ----- Mensaje original ----- 
  De: Henry Kammler 
  Para: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu 
  Enviado: Lunes 8 de Enero de 2001 11:41 AM
  Asunto: Re: Documentos indigenas


  Tlasokamati, David,
  the site looks very promising (partly under construction), it already 
  contains 48 nahuatl paleographies in text format + two in otomí.  There is 
  no explanation what the programs are good for, though.

  Henry

  ATTENTION
  ***Neue Anschrift***New Address***
  Henry Kammler
  Max-Hirsch-Str.41
  D-60386 FRANKFURT/M.
  tel. ++49-69-94143915
  **********************************

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From paulbarker at terra.com.mx  Tue Jan  9 08:15:13 2001
From: paulbarker at terra.com.mx (Paul Barker)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 02:15:13 -0600
Subject: Resending Request for help
Message-ID: <TUE.9.JAN.2001.021513.0600.>

Dear List,
With apologies for the repetition, I am reposting my request for help in
identifying the following two classical Nahuatl texts. the first is a
lament and the second a war or fighting poem. I am keen to discover their
origins.
many thanks
paul barker

The texts:

Nihualchocay nihaulicnotlamati �an nicui canitl huiya tlaca anichuicaz yn
toxochiuh ohuaye. Maic nina pantiaz cano ximo huaya, huaye. Nihuallaocoya
ohuaya, ohuaye&#8230;.

A classical Nahuatl lament.

Xictzotzona in mohuehueuh. Xihuehuetzca yc ixtlilxochitle xomittotoao in
quauhquAhauc Mexico nic� mocue�alizchimalo cuecueyahau yan temalacatitlan y
ximo chicauwaca netleya.

more information and music at http://www.paulbarker.net
new CD of music released:
http://www.sargasso.com

_________________________________________________________________
Terra
!Internet mas tuyo que nunca!
www.terra.com.mx


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                               http://www.umt.edu/provost/


From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx  Thu Jan 11 18:00:20 2001
From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:00:20 -0600
Subject: "o", "u", and "u"
Message-ID: <THU.11.JAN.2001.120020.0600.>

I am working on a nahuatl document from los altos de jalisco whose writer
seems to distinguish between the "o", its "u" variant, and the "u" of "cu"
and "hu". The "u" in "hu" and "cu" is written with the normal letter "u" (it
has a little tail). The "u" which is a pronunciation variant of the "o" is
written with a letter "o" that is open at the top, kind of like a "u"
without the tail. The "real" "o" is written with a normal closed letter "o".
Has anyone seen this fenomenon before? Is it documented? Also, when I get
this published, I would like to distinguish between the three sounds in the
transcription by using three different letters. Can a linguist give me
advice on an appropriate symbol for the "u" variant?
    John Sullivan
    Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas


From karttu at nantucket.net  Thu Jan 11 18:34:59 2001
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:34:59 -0500
Subject: "o", "u", and "u"
Message-ID: <THU.11.JAN.2001.133459.0500.>

Dear John,

The orthographic "u" of "hu" and "cu" is not a vowel like the other two.
It's part of digraphs for the consonants /w/ and (resorting to yet another
digraph because I can't do superscripts in email) /kw/. This latter
represents labialized /k/ as in English quick or Spanish cuando, but
permitted phonotactically at both the beginning and end of syllables in
Nahuatl.

So you are really only looking for two distinct vowel symbols.  The hu and
cu are predictable packages.  Won't u and o do?

Fran

----------
>From: John Sullivan <jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx>
>To: nahuat-l <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
>Subject: "o", "u", and "u"
>Date: Thu, Jan 11, 2001, 1:00 PM
>

> I am working on a nahuatl document from los altos de jalisco whose writer
> seems to distinguish between the "o", its "u" variant, and the "u" of "cu"
> and "hu". The "u" in "hu" and "cu" is written with the normal letter "u" (it
> has a little tail). The "u" which is a pronunciation variant of the "o" is
> written with a letter "o" that is open at the top, kind of like a "u"
> without the tail. The "real" "o" is written with a normal closed letter "o".
> Has anyone seen this fenomenon before? Is it documented? Also, when I get
> this published, I would like to distinguish between the three sounds in the
> transcription by using three different letters. Can a linguist give me
> advice on an appropriate symbol for the "u" variant?
>     John Sullivan
>     Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
>


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Jan 11 19:04:05 2001
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:04:05 -0500
Subject: "o", "u", and "u"
In-Reply-To: <200101111840.NAA08544@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <THU.11.JAN.2001.140405.0500.>

John,
The digraph /kw/, I believe, should have a superscript w. Otherwise, the
historically written independent o and u, which are the same phoneme in
Nahuatl, could be written either /o/ or /u/, where //=italic.

Michael


On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, Frances Karttunen wrote:

> Dear John,
>
> The orthographic "u" of "hu" and "cu" is not a vowel like the other two.
> It's part of digraphs for the consonants /w/ and (resorting to yet another
> digraph because I can't do superscripts in email) /kw/. This latter
> represents labialized /k/ as in English quick or Spanish cuando, but
> permitted phonotactically at both the beginning and end of syllables in
> Nahuatl.
>
> So you are really only looking for two distinct vowel symbols.  The hu and
> cu are predictable packages.  Won't u and o do?
>
> Fran
>
> ----------
> >From: John Sullivan <jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx>
> >To: nahuat-l <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
> >Subject: "o", "u", and "u"
> >Date: Thu, Jan 11, 2001, 1:00 PM
> >
>
> > I am working on a nahuatl document from los altos de jalisco whose writer
> > seems to distinguish between the "o", its "u" variant, and the "u" of "cu"
> > and "hu". The "u" in "hu" and "cu" is written with the normal letter "u" (it
> > has a little tail). The "u" which is a pronunciation variant of the "o" is
> > written with a letter "o" that is open at the top, kind of like a "u"
> > without the tail. The "real" "o" is written with a normal closed letter "o".
> > Has anyone seen this fenomenon before? Is it documented? Also, when I get
> > this published, I would like to distinguish between the three sounds in the
> > transcription by using three different letters. Can a linguist give me
> > advice on an appropriate symbol for the "u" variant?
> >     John Sullivan
> >     Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas
> >
>
>


Michael McCafferty
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

*******************************************************************************
"So, who you gonna believe,
me or your own eyes?"

              -Chico Marx

*******************************************************************************


From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx  Thu Jan 11 19:16:52 2001
From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:16:52 -0600
Subject: "o", "u", and "u"
In-Reply-To: <200101111840.NAA08544@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <THU.11.JAN.2001.131652.0600.>

Fran,
    You're right.   The "u" sound and the "w" sound will always be
distinguished because the latter will appear as "cu" or "hu". Instead of
proposing confusing new alphabets, I guess I'll just comment on what this
scribe was trying to do.
    John

on 1/11/01 12:34 PM, Frances Karttunen at karttu at nantucket.net wrote:

> Dear John,
>
> The orthographic "u" of "hu" and "cu" is not a vowel like the other two.
> It's part of digraphs for the consonants /w/ and (resorting to yet another
> digraph because I can't do superscripts in email) /kw/. This latter
> represents labialized /k/ as in English quick or Spanish cuando, but
> permitted phonotactically at both the beginning and end of syllables in
> Nahuatl.
>
> So you are really only looking for two distinct vowel symbols.  The hu and
> cu are predictable packages.  Won't u and o do?
>
> Fran
>
> ----------
>> From: John Sullivan <jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx>
>> To: nahuat-l <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
>> Subject: "o", "u", and "u"
>> Date: Thu, Jan 11, 2001, 1:00 PM
>>
>
>> I am working on a nahuatl document from los altos de jalisco whose writer
>> seems to distinguish between the "o", its "u" variant, and the "u" of "cu"
>> and "hu". The "u" in "hu" and "cu" is written with the normal letter "u" (it
>> has a little tail). The "u" which is a pronunciation variant of the "o" is
>> written with a letter "o" that is open at the top, kind of like a "u"
>> without the tail. The "real" "o" is written with a normal closed letter "o".
>> Has anyone seen this fenomenon before? Is it documented? Also, when I get
>> this published, I would like to distinguish between the three sounds in the
>> transcription by using three different letters. Can a linguist give me
>> advice on an appropriate symbol for the "u" variant?
>>     John Sullivan
>>     Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
>>


From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Sat Jan 20 15:36:35 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:36:35 +0100
Subject: Ohui caxtiltecacamanalli !!!
Message-ID: <SAT.20.JAN.2001.163635.0100.>

Cuales son las principales dificultades que encuentran 
los niños hablantes de nahuatl cuando empiezan a aprender 
español (castellano)? 

Se ha realizado algun estudio de adquisición del castellano 
como segunda lengua entre la población monolingue en nahuatl? 

Ixpantzinco. 

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From walden at dakotacom.net  Sun Jan 21 00:05:45 2001
From: walden at dakotacom.net (Walden Browne)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 17:05:45 -0700
Subject: Sahagun and the Transition to Modernity
Message-ID: <SAT.20.JAN.2001.170545.0700.>

Many people who subscribe to this listserv appear to have an interest in
Sahag�n. I also recall that a few months ago there was some discussion about
the use of this listserv for the purposes of advertising. I do not recall
what the final consensus was, but if you object to authors announcing there
books here, read no further and delete this message.


My book, Sahag�n and the Transition to Modernity, was recently published by
the University of Oklahoma Press. Many of my ideas about Sahag�n are
unorthodox, and I expect that many of them will prove very controversial in
the eyes of scholars in the area of Sahag�n or Nahua studies. Nevertheless,
I hope to at least encourage scholars to rethink some well-entrenched
assumptions about the nature of Sahag�n's work and generate further
discussion.
More information about the book can be found at the University of Oklahoma
Press' web site:
http://www.ou.edu/oupress/brow3233.htm
or at my web site:
http://www.dakotacom.net/~walden
I apologize in advance to those who find advertising on this listserv in any
form whatsoever offensive.
-- Walden Browne


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                               http://www.umt.edu/provost/


From rmedinagarcia at quepasa.com  Fri Jan 26 02:14:23 2001
From: rmedinagarcia at quepasa.com (rmedinagarcia at quepasa.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:14:23 -0800
Subject: stereotypes: nahuatl
Message-ID: <THU.25.JAN.2001.181423.0800.>

I have seen some movies with the "India Maria." To me they seem in many ways insulting to indigenous people but to what degree do you guys think that her pronunciation of Spanish words are influenced by Nahuatl? I think her substitution of "o", "u" seem derived from Nahuatl.  Is this true?
Her phonetic pronunciation of Spanish seems like the stereotypical view of indigenous people's pronunciation.  Does anybody else detect any other language phonetic influence, in the India Maria's pronunciation?



*** Obtenga su email gratis en http://www.quepasa.com ***


From William.Bright at Colorado.EDU  Fri Jan 26 17:53:07 2001
From: William.Bright at Colorado.EDU (william bright)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:53:07 -0700
Subject: stereotypes: nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <20010126021423.27037.cpmta@c017.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JAN.2001.105307.0700.>

it's a long time since i saw the "india maria", but my recollection is that
her speech shows mergers of "i" with "e", and of "o" with "u" in
NON-accented syllables only; thus she might say "quimado" instead of
"quemado", and "cucina" instead of "cocina". i think this is a stereotyped
characteristic of much rustic, non-standard spanish in other parts of latin
america, not just in mexico, and not just of indians. so i doubt if it has
anything to do with the fact that "o" and "u" do not contrast in many
dialects of nahuatl. asta moztlatzinco; bill bright
--
William Bright
Professor Emeritus of Linguistics & Anthropology, UCLA
Professor Adjoint of Linguistics, University of Colorado, Boulder
Editor, Written Language and Literacy
Editor, Native American Placenames of the United States
1625 Mariposa Avenue, Boulder, CO 80302
Tel. 303-444-4274
FAX 303-413-0017
Email william.bright at colorado.edu

William Bright's website: http://www.ncidc.org/bright


From micc at home.com  Sat Jan 27 00:29:53 2001
From: micc at home.com (mario)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 16:29:53 -0800
Subject: stereotypes: nahuatl
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JAN.2001.162953.0800.>

Here I go jumping into a "politically correct" battle......

Although the india maria character is a stereotype,  I have always been amused and astonished at how she mimics EXACTLY  my grandmother's and uncles Spanish. My family is from a small town in the State of Hidalgo, and my grandmother claims we are "Azteca-Otomi"  or better said "nahuatl -
~Na~nu"

I believe that the "indito" sing song form of speech (as it is disparagingly called by most mestizos)  is definitely ...and defiantly.... based on indigenous language prototypes.  Whether it is based on Nahuatl roots, or perhaps  tonal differences that make up individual languages (as in
Mixteco and other languages) is unknown to me.

>"To me they seem in many ways insulting to indigenous people" ...... To many danzantes (and that is the extent of my interactions with indigenous and "indigenous-thinking" mestizos) I have talked to, they see la India Maria as a Native American Island of identity in a vast sea of Blond
haired- wannabes, those vast majority of people that  dominate Mexican and Latin-American media.

Of course, through our more politicized eyes, we see a more negative image.

mario



rmedinagarcia at quepasa.com wrote:

> I have seen some movies with the "India Maria." To me they seem in many ways insulting to indigenous people but to what degree do you guys think that her pronunciation of Spanish words are influenced by Nahuatl? I think her substitution of "o", "u" seem derived from Nahuatl.  Is this true?
> Her phonetic pronunciation of Spanish seems like the stereotypical view of indigenous people's pronunciation.  Does anybody else detect any other language phonetic influence, in the India Maria's pronunciation?
>
> *** Obtenga su email gratis en http://www.quepasa.com ***


From adriana5 at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 27 16:35:54 2001
From: adriana5 at earthlink.net (Adriana Zavala)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 11:35:54 -0500
Subject: India Maria
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JAN.2001.113554.0500.>

Just my two cents:
FYI
the attribution of this mode of speech to "Inditos" goes much farther back
that India Maria. In the "revistas" of the 1920s (vaudeville style comedic
reviews) actors portraying Indians frequently spoke in this manner. And this
in the context of the so-called postrevolutionary exaltation of Mexico's
indigenous heritage.

Adriana Zavala
Ph.D Candidate
History of Art
Brown University
adriana5 at earthlink.net


From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx  Sat Jan 27 17:50:09 2001
From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 11:50:09 -0600
Subject: Nahuatl clases in Zacatecas
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JAN.2001.115009.0600.>

    Mexican public education offers a low-cost alternative to studying
náhuatl at Yale or Mexican private institutes. The following is a brief
description of what we do during the normal school year (February-June, and
August-December) at the Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas.
    I have designed a two trimester sequence of Spoken Huastecan Nahuatl
through the university Language Center. It is based on the (antiquated, I
know) methodology I learned while working as a Spanish TA for Stephen
Krashen at the University of Southern California, and Tracy Terrel at the
University of California, San Diego. There is no grammar, translation, books
or writing. No Spanish (or English) is allowed in the classroom. Just pure
spoken náhuatl from day one. There is lots of TPR and close daily
interaction with native speakers. The next sesion begins around mid March.
    I also teach an ongoing workshop in transcription and translation of
colonial náhuatl documents through the History Ph.D. program, where I am a
professor.
    The U.A.Z. is one of the few Mexican public universities that is
actively resisting the trend to raise tuition in Mexico. The current total
cost for taking both of these courses (Modern and Classical Nahuatl) for a
trimester is under 500 pesos (it doesn't matter where you are from).
    We are planning to start intensive courses during the vacation months
(January and July). They would cost a little more (to pay the teachers), but
then again, it wouldn't be more than 2000 pesos. I'll send more information
on this later.
    If anybody has questions, feel free to contact me:
John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Doctorado en Historia
Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx
(4) 922-9848 (office phone and fax)


From micc at home.com  Sat Jan 27 18:28:52 2001
From: micc at home.com (mario)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 10:28:52 -0800
Subject: India Maria
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JAN.2001.102852.0800.>

Quite true!

In the old radio "comedias", movies of the "golden era" of Mexican cinema, and
in past TV and radio commercials, the "indito" dialect was used by the mass
media to differentiate the strong class differences between the Euro-centric
dominant culture and the "indios, patas rajadas"...indians shredded feet... an
allusion to the indigenous people going barefoot... and thus barbarians)

Sometimes, as in the stories of la india maria, the indito dialect of Spanish
was used to exaggerate the "innocence" of the protagonists against the ultra
sophistication of their rich, powerful and evil antagonists.

But usually the indito protagonists succeeds and becomes part of the larger
dominant Mestizo culture in a tragic form of "happy ending"........

And we wonder why so many beautiful Raza finds it necessary to bleach their dark
hair, and demean our people who are "pobrecitos estan TAN prietos!!!"


mario e. aguilar
www.mexicayotl.org

Adriana Zavala wrote:

> Just my two cents:
> FYI
> the attribution of this mode of speech to "Inditos" goes much farther back
> that India Maria. In the "revistas" of the 1920s (vaudeville style comedic
> reviews) actors portraying Indians frequently spoke in this manner. And this
> in the context of the so-called postrevolutionary exaltation of Mexico's
> indigenous heritage.
>
> Adriana Zavala
> Ph.D Candidate
> History of Art
> Brown University
> adriana5 at earthlink.net


From Christian.Grote at hfm.uni-weimar.de  Sat Jan 27 21:22:36 2001
From: Christian.Grote at hfm.uni-weimar.de (Christian Grote)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:22:36 +0100
Subject: Preguntas sobre la relación Náhuatl-Español coloquial en CA
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JAN.2001.222236.0100.>

Como yo, estudiante de la lingüística española, me intereso muchamente
para la Centroamérica y sus dialectos, especialmente para El Salvador,
tengo unas preguntas, y talvez pueden ayudarme:


   * ¿qué influjo tiene el náhuatl en el español coloquial de CA, y
     especialmente el Pipil en El Salvador?
   * en El Salvador, hay una forma especial del fenómeno "yeísmo", se
     puede decir que hay un "dchoísmo": la "ll" se pronuncia como la
     "y", pero el "y" en posición inicial se pronuncia casi como un
     "dch". ¿es un fenómeno general de la zona náhuatl, y es atribuable
     a un fenómeno fonético del náhuatl? - O, ¿no hay ninguna relación a
     la lengua indigena?

Me gustaría muchamente si alguién(a) pudiera responder a estas
preguntas. ¡Muchas gracias!

Christian Grote, Stud. phil.

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From davius_sanctex at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 28 00:33:01 2001
From: davius_sanctex at hotmail.com (Davius Sanctex)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 00:33:01 -0000
Subject: Preguntas sobre la relación Náhuatl-Español coloquial en CA
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JAN.2001.003301.0000.>

>* �qu� influjo tiene el n�huatl en el espa�ol coloquial de CA, y
>especialmente el Pipil en El Salvador?

M�s bien poco. La poblaci�n que habla n�huatl no llega al 3%
y en muchas zonas los ni�os aunque lo entienden y lo escuchan
cotidianamente de sus padres son educados en castellano.
El Pipil cuenta s�lo con unos 2000 hablantes con lo cual lo que
haya influido hasta ahora, ya no lo influir� en el futuro!

Naturalmente el n�huatl ha dejado rastros en el castellano de
M�xico se me ocurren dos construcciones t�picamente mejicanas,
que no se dan fuera en Espa�a o Argentina y que pueden ser
explicadas a partir del n�huatl:

(1a) se los dije (se lo dije a ustedes)
(1b) ni-kim-ihlia 'yo-ustedes-dije'

(2a) ya me lo rompiste, mi plato
(2b) o-ti-nech-tla-panilih mo-tepalca-uh
     'ya-tu-me-algo-rompiste mi-plato'

Otros fen�menos como el "ahorita" o el "lueguito" tambi�n
podr�an estar influidos por el sufijo n�huatl "-tzin" que
es marca tanto el diminuitivo como el honor�fico y de ah�
que los diminutivos se empleen en CA para hablar educadamente.

>* en El Salvador, hay una forma especial del fen�meno "ye�smo", se
>puede decir que hay un "dcho�smo": la "ll" se pronuncia como la
>"y", pero el "y" en posici�n inicial se pronuncia casi como un
>"dch". �es un fen�meno general de la zona n�huatl, y es  atribuable
>a un fen�meno fon�tico del n�huatl? - O, �no hay ninguna relaci�n a
>la lengua indigena?

Probablemente NO pueda atribuirse al n�huatl ya que en n�huatl
no posee sonidos sonoros a principio de palabra (de hecho ning�n
fonema tiene contrapartida sonora). Los al�fonos sonoros y sordos
se hallan en distribuci�n complementaria (por ejemplo detr�s de
nasal aparecen al�fonos sonoros, pero nunca a principio de palabra!)

Atentamente,
David S. (UPC)

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Mon Jan 29 00:45:02 2001
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 01:45:02 +0100
Subject: translations
Message-ID: <MON.29.JAN.2001.014502.0100.>

Does anyone know if there exists (colonial) Nahuatl translations of
occidental philosophic texts? Any recommendation is very welcome
Thanks in advance
Juergen Stowasser

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
Austria
tel: 01/ 524 54 60  v  0676/ 398 66 79
http://www.univie.ac.at/meso


From swood at darkwing.uoregon.edu  Tue Jan 30 06:18:37 2001
From: swood at darkwing.uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:18:37 -0800
Subject: Looking for Robert Stone and Yasmin Khan
Message-ID: <MON.29.JAN.2001.221837.0800.>

Nahuatlatos/as,

I am wondering if anyone can help me locate a current e-mail address for
Mesoamericanists Robert Stone and/or Yasmin Khan?

Thanks!
Stephanie Wood


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Jan  2 15:24:48 2001
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 08:24:48 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Re: Nahuatl Dominant Word Order ; origin of [tl]
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.082448.0700.>

>Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 09:27:11 +0000
>From: Anthony Appleyard <Anthony at buckrogers.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Nahuatl Dominant Word Order ; origin of [tl]
>
>Please forward to Nahuat-l group:-
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>(1) It has been pointed out that the same Nahuatl sentence could mean
>e.g. "the dog chased the cat" and also "the cat chased the dog" and both
>possible meanings make sense, in a language with no accusative case
>marker and free word order. Could it be that the common Nahuatl habit of
>embedding the object in the verb, arose to resolve such ambiguities?
>
>(2) I found a Nahuatl-related WWW file that said that Nahuatl [tl] arose
>from early Ute-Aztecan [t] when followed by [a] If so, what is the
>origin of [tl] in e.g. "tlehco:" = "to ascend", and in the absolutive
>suffix [-tl(i)]?
>--
>Anthony Appleyard


From maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu  Mon Jan  1 19:39:59 2001
From: maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (maestas at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 12:39:59 -0700
Subject: Research into the historical usage of the word "Apache"
Message-ID: <MON.1.JAN.2001.123959.0700.>

Does anybody recall or know if there has been articles or chapters written
about the possibility that the word "Apache" was brought up from south of
the Rio Grande by Juna de Onate and other colonists, rather than adopted
from the Zuni word for enemy. Martha Stone explains that usage of Apache
among Danzantes Concheros referred to the use of "pachtli" in
ritual. Dolores Gunnerson explains that Apache could possibly be related
to the Nahuatl word Mapache, meaning racoon due to certain face adornment
among Southern Athapaskans in the 16th and 17th century. This is what I
am familiar with and would appreciate any help in finding more detailed
r resources on the subject.
Thank you,
Enrique Maestas


From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk  Tue Jan  2 10:03:16 2001
From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:03:16 GMT
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.100316.GMT.>

"Davius Sanctex" <davius_sanctex at hotmail.com> wrote:-
 > La primera muestra, "Ceh huelta onia Acapulco", la de Lidia Cedillo,...

Which reminds me: Karttunen's book says that the name Acapulco / Acapo:lco
means "at the big useless reeds". Before the original native settlement was
obliterated by holiday resort buildings, what did the name refer to? Was the
natives' fishing boat harbor choked with Californian Giant Kelp, or what?

Anthony Appleyard


From micc at home.com  Tue Jan  2 18:52:17 2001
From: micc at home.com (mario)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:52:17 -0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.105217.0800.>

I always thought that the word "acatl" meant cane, not reed.  Isn't the word
"to:lli" the correct one for reed?


mario e. aguilar
www.mexicayotl.org

Anthony Appleyard wrote:

> "Davius Sanctex" <davius_sanctex at hotmail.com> wrote:-
>  > La primera muestra, "Ceh huelta onia Acapulco", la de Lidia Cedillo,...
>
> Which reminds me: Karttunen's book says that the name Acapulco / Acapo:lco
> means "at the big useless reeds". Before the original native settlement was
> obliterated by holiday resort buildings, what did the name refer to? Was the
> natives' fishing boat harbor choked with Californian Giant Kelp, or what?
>
> Anthony Appleyard


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Jan  2 18:59:15 2001
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:59:15 -0700
Subject: translation nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <F1393DjFbUcOV1EetVo0000b3f9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.115915.0700.>

These are all included in the introductory vocabulary of the Campbell and
Karttunen _Foundation Course_

At 06:26 PM 1/2/01 +0000, you wrote:
>Can someone to give nahuatl equivalents
>of the following english words:
>
>-skin





John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                               http://www.umt.edu/provost/


From davius_sanctex at hotmail.com  Tue Jan  2 18:26:38 2001
From: davius_sanctex at hotmail.com (Davius Sanctex)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 18:26:38 -0000
Subject: translation nahuatl
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.182638.0000.>

Can someone to give nahuatl equivalents
of the following english words:

-skin
-knee
-liver
-bone
-claw
-horn
-tail
-fat(greasy substance)
-bark
-seed
-ashes
-green
-yellow
-dry
-full

Thank you
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Tue Jan  2 19:29:43 2001
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:29:43 -0600
Subject: translation nahuatl
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.132943.0600.>

I tried to find this book on Amazon.com recently, with no success. Is there any way to order one?

David Wright
  ----- Mensaje original ----- 
  De: John F. Schwaller 
  Para: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu 
  Enviado: Martes 2 de Enero de 2001 12:59 PM
  Asunto: Re: translation nahuatl


  These are all included in the introductory vocabulary of the Campbell and 
  Karttunen _Foundation Course_

  At 06:26 PM 1/2/01 +0000, you wrote:
  >Can someone to give nahuatl equivalents
  >of the following english words:
  >
  >-skin





  John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
  Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
  The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                                 http://www.umt.edu/provost/

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From carolandmike at eudoramail.com  Tue Jan  2 20:02:17 2001
From: carolandmike at eudoramail.com (Michael L. Lewis)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:02:17 -0800
Subject: translation nahuatl
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.120217.0800.>

--
   To which list, please add the name Battle Eagle.

      Thanks.



On Tue, 02 Jan 2001 18:26:38   Davius Sanctex wrote:
>Can someone to give nahuatl equivalents
>of the following english words:
>
>-skin
>-knee
>-liver
>-bone
>-claw
>-horn
>-tail
>-fat(greasy substance)
>-bark
>-seed
>-ashes
>-green
>-yellow
>-dry
>-full
>
>Thank you
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com


From avocaudle at home.com  Tue Jan  2 19:28:24 2001
From: avocaudle at home.com (alicia caudle)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:28:24 -0800
Subject: translation nahuatl
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.112824.0800.>

The following four are the only ones that I can help with:

 > -skin
 > -knee
 > -liver
 > -bone
 > -claw
 > -horn - cuacuahuitl
 > -tail
 > -fat
 > -bark
 > -seed - xinachtli
 > -ashes
 > -green - xoxoctic
 > -yellow - kostik
 > -dry
 > -full


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Tue Jan  2 20:26:35 2001
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:26:35 -0700
Subject: translation nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <004301c074f2$5f7e6340$0ebee994@prodigy.net.mx>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.132635.0700.>

Follow the instruction on the following:

http://www.umt.edu/history/nahuatl/hotlinks.htm

At 01:29 PM 1/2/01 -0600, you wrote:
>I tried to find this book on Amazon.com recently, with no success. Is
>there any way to order one?
>
>David Wright
>>----- Mensaje original -----
>>De: <mailto:schwallr at selway.umt.edu>John F. Schwaller
>>Para: <mailto:nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
>>Enviado: Martes 2 de Enero de 2001 12:59 PM
>>Asunto: Re: translation nahuatl
>>
>>These are all included in the introductory vocabulary of the Campbell and
>>Karttunen _Foundation Course_
>>
>>At 06:26 PM 1/2/01 +0000, you wrote:
>> >Can someone to give nahuatl equivalents
>> >of the following english words:
>> >
>> >-skin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>John Frederick
>>Schwaller
>><mailto:schwallr at selway.umt.edu>schwallr at selway.umt.edu
>>Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
>>The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>>
>><http://www.umt.edu/provost/>http://www.umt.edu/provost/
>
>John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
>Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
>The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
>                               http://www.umt.edu/provost/
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From davius_sanctex at hotmail.com  Tue Jan  2 22:49:40 2001
From: davius_sanctex at hotmail.com (Davius Sanctex)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:49:40 -0000
Subject: Origin of [tl]
Message-ID: <TUE.2.JAN.2001.224940.0000.>

I found a Nahuatl-related WWW file that said that Nahuatl [tl]
>arose from early Ute-Aztecan [t] when followed by [a] If so, what is >the
>origin of [tl] in e.g. "tlehco:" = "to ascend", and in the absolutive
>suffix [-tl(i)]?

I have completed a list of uto-aztecan cognates and there are
difficult examples. Regular and tipical examples are:
_____________________________________________________
Hopi  Nawatl  Comanche Pima   Yaqui  Raramuri Warihio

t     tl      t        t/ch   t      r        t
tama  tlantli ta:ma    tatami tami   ram?     tame  'tooth'
taqa  tlakatl tenahp?  cheoj         rihoy    tihoe 'man'

t     t       t        t/ch   t      r        t
      te:ntli t?:pe    chini  te:ni  rin?           'mouth'
      tetl    t?p?            teta            tehte 'stone'

_____________________________________________________
Difficult exemples are:

Hopi  Nawatl  Comanche Pima   Yaqui  Raramuri Warihio
      tletl                   taya   rah?     taha  'fire, burn'
      kechtli                 kutana: kup?    kupa  'neck'
_____________________________________________________

1)I think that the first of these two problematic exemples
can be explained by later palatalization:
*tay- > *tlay- > tle-

2)About second exemple we can argue that roots: kut- are
not related to kech- (I think this is the case).

But still remain some difficulties ... what about words like: tahtli
'father'(a totonac loanword ?), tli:lli 'black' ...
and, of course, tlehco: 'ascend' [It's possible examples of
"tle" being explained by forms in "*tlay", but this argument
doesn't seem explain "tli" examples.

Finally a question about suffix -tl: is this suffix related
to "-ra" <*-ta [found in Tarahumara (raramuri) and Warihio]?
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jan  3 11:48:31 2001
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 06:48:31 -0500
Subject: translation nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <F1393DjFbUcOV1EetVo0000b3f9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.3.JAN.2001.064831.0500.>

Dave,

This sort of list bespeaks a need to get a book. But here are most of your
request.



On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Davius Sanctex wrote:

> Can someone to give nahuatl equivalents
> of the following english words:
>
> -skin: ehuatl (same as "bark"...unless you mean what a dog does)
> -knee: tlancuaitl
> -liver: elli
> -bone: omitl
> -claw: cuacuahtli
> -horn: I don't know.
> -tail: I forget off hand
> -fat(greasy substance): in Proto-Algonquian /pemi/
> -bark: see "skin"
> -seed: I don't know
> -ashes: nextli
> -green: xoxoctic
> -yellow: coztic
> -dry: huaqui
> -full: It kinda depends on what you're talking about. So, I can't help
you at this point.


MIchael

Michael McCafferty


From karttu at nantucket.net  Wed Jan  3 12:09:03 2001
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:09:03 -0500
Subject: Origin of [tl]
Message-ID: <WED.3.JAN.2001.070903.0500.>

These are all good examples, but before anybody goes very far in reinventing
the wheel, may I suggest going back to the original published literature on
the subject, consulting Wick Miller's Uto-Aztecan cognate list, and asking
Karen Dakin and Una Canger for their thoughts on the apparently exceptional
cases.

To add to the less transparent examples of tlV where V is not a, there is
tlohtli 'hawk' and -tloc 'near to, adjacent to' (cf. the difrasismo tloqueh
na:huaqueh 'the universal and all-pervading (deity)'.

Fran

----------
>From: "Davius Sanctex" <davius_sanctex at hotmail.com>
>To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
>Subject: Re: Origin of [tl]
>Date: Tue, Jan 2, 2001, 5:49 PM
>

>
> I found a Nahuatl-related WWW file that said that Nahuatl [tl]
>>arose from early Ute-Aztecan [t] when followed by [a] If so, what is >the
>>origin of [tl] in e.g. "tlehco:" = "to ascend", and in the absolutive
>>suffix [-tl(i)]?
>
> I have completed a list of uto-aztecan cognates and there are
> difficult examples. Regular and tipical examples are:
> _____________________________________________________
> Hopi  Nawatl  Comanche Pima   Yaqui  Raramuri Warihio
>
> t     tl      t        t/ch   t      r        t
> tama  tlantli ta:ma    tatami tami   ram?     tame  'tooth'
> taqa  tlakatl tenahp?  cheoj         rihoy    tihoe 'man'
>
> t     t       t        t/ch   t      r        t
>       te:ntli t?:pe    chini  te:ni  rin?           'mouth'
>       tetl    t?p?            teta            tehte 'stone'
>
> _____________________________________________________
> Difficult exemples are:
>
> Hopi  Nawatl  Comanche Pima   Yaqui  Raramuri Warihio
>       tletl                   taya   rah?     taha  'fire, burn'
>       kechtli                 kutana: kup?    kupa  'neck'
> _____________________________________________________
>
> 1)I think that the first of these two problematic exemples
> can be explained by later palatalization:
> *tay- > *tlay- > tle-
>
> 2)About second exemple we can argue that roots: kut- are
> not related to kech- (I think this is the case).
>
> But still remain some difficulties ... what about words like: tahtli
> 'father'(a totonac loanword ?), tli:lli 'black' ...
> and, of course, tlehco: 'ascend' [It's possible examples of
> "tle" being explained by forms in "*tlay", but this argument
> doesn't seem explain "tli" examples.
>
> Finally a question about suffix -tl: is this suffix related
> to "-ra" <*-ta [found in Tarahumara (raramuri) and Warihio]?
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>


From karttu at nantucket.net  Wed Jan  3 12:33:10 2001
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:33:10 -0500
Subject: <no subject>
Message-ID: <WED.3.JAN.2001.073310.0500.>

Cane in the sense of sugar cane was introduced into the Americas by the
Spaniards and Portuguese, who had spread its cultivation from the
Mediterranean to the Atlantic islands (Canaries, Madeira, the islands of the
Caribbean) before they finally reached the mainland.

The word acatl pre-existed the introduction of sugar cane.  It is a
calendrical name in most or all of the Mesoamerican calendars.  Few
languages have just one single "correct" word for each thing.  Both to:lli
and acatl referred to stuff we would think of as reeds.  Have a look at some
calendrical symbols and compare them to what appears in To:lla:n (Tula,
Tulancingo) glyphs.

No giant kelp as far as I know (but I sure saw some great giant kelp while
kayaking in Alaska recently).

----------
>From: mario <micc at home.com>
>To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
>Subject: Re:
>Date: Tue, Jan 2, 2001, 1:52 PM
>

> I always thought that the word "acatl" meant cane, not reed.  Isn't the word
> "to:lli" the correct one for reed?
>
>
> mario e. aguilar
> www.mexicayotl.org
>
> Anthony Appleyard wrote:
>
>> "Davius Sanctex" <davius_sanctex at hotmail.com> wrote:-
>>  > La primera muestra, "Ceh huelta onia Acapulco", la de Lidia Cedillo,...
>>
>> Which reminds me: Karttunen's book says that the name Acapulco / Acapo:lco
>> means "at the big useless reeds". Before the original native settlement was
>> obliterated by holiday resort buildings, what did the name refer to? Was the
>> natives' fishing boat harbor choked with Californian Giant Kelp, or what?
>>
>> Anthony Appleyard
>


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Wed Jan  3 13:03:39 2001
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 08:03:39 -0500
Subject: speaking of -tl
In-Reply-To: <200101031237.HAA31941@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <WED.3.JAN.2001.080339.0500.>

Does anyone know how the Kwakiutl pronounce their -tl?


Michael McCafferty
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu


From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Thu Jan  4 00:10:46 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (david sanchez)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 01:10:46 +0100
Subject: Origin of [tl]
Message-ID: <THU.4.JAN.2001.011046.0100.>

Can someone recomend to me web site on comparative uto-aztecan?
(Yesterday I consulted about 40 sites on the subjetct but none very
interesting!!!.)

Thank you!
Davius S
__________________________________________________

>These are all good examples, but before anybody goes very far in
reinventing
>the wheel, may I suggest going back to the original published literature on
>the subject, consulting Wick Miller's Uto-Aztecan cognate list, and asking
>Karen Dakin and Una Canger for their thoughts on the apparently exceptional
>cases.

>To add to the less transparent examples of tlV where V is not a, there is
>tlohtli 'hawk' and -tloc 'near to, adjacent to' (cf. the difrasismo tloqueh
>na:huaqueh 'the universal and all-pervading (deity)'.


From karttu at nantucket.net  Thu Jan  4 01:38:07 2001
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 20:38:07 -0500
Subject: Origin of [tl]
Message-ID: <WED.3.JAN.2001.203807.0500.>

For starters, go to the website of the Society for the Study of the
Indigenous Languages of the Americas (ssila.org).  But for the sort of
things you are interested in, the fact of the matter is it's been published
in books and journals.  You really can't expect people to replicate for you
in email what has been over years researched, written, reviewed for
publication, published, and reviewed again.

----------
>From: "david sanchez" <davius_sanctex at terra.es>
>To: <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
>Subject: RE: Origin of [tl]
>Date: Wed, Jan 3, 2001, 7:10 PM
>

>
>
> Can someone recomend to me web site on comparative uto-aztecan?
> (Yesterday I consulted about 40 sites on the subjetct but none very
> interesting!!!.)
>
> Thank you!
> Davius S


From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk  Thu Jan  4 08:09:21 2001
From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:09:21 GMT
Subject: Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl; Andrews's textbooks
Message-ID: <THU.4.JAN.2001.080921.GMT.>

I have Karttunen's 2-volume textbook of Nahuatl for English-speakers. With
thanks to members of this group for information about it. But it does not
include a dictionary of the words used in the examples, but instead it keeps
on referring me to a book called "Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl". Please
what is the bibliographical information about this book?

It also a few times refers me to Andrews's books. Please what is the latest
information about them being re-published? On 14 Dec 2000 John F. Schwaller
schwallr at selway.umt.edu told me that:-

> The Andrews is LONG out of print. It has been accepted for publication in a
> revised version at the University of Oklahoma Press.  I expect it to be
> out in about a year. You can write U Oklahoma Press for more info.

  I thereupon emailed to the University of Oklahoma Press oupress at ou.edu
enquiring about Andrews's books, but they never answered.

Citlalyani


From mhopkins at fas.harvard.edu  Thu Jan  4 16:40:39 2001
From: mhopkins at fas.harvard.edu (Mary Hopkins)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 11:40:39 -0500
Subject: Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl; Andrews's textbooks
In-Reply-To: <200101041554.f04FsW415477@server2.umt.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.4.JAN.2001.114039.0500.>

Companeros:
	A general comment from someone who works in a library.
	If you have a local library, whether public or university, your
reference librarian can easily answer such questions. They'll have a set
of Books in Print, which will tell you where you can get hold of your own
copies of current books. They'll also have access to a database called
OCLC, which has national holdings records and can let them identify other
libraries that may be able to send you copies of books on interlibrary
loan.
	If a book is out of print, a good place to try looking for a copy
to buy is abebooks, which is at http://dogbert.abebooks.com/ It's an
inter-dealer used book service, and although not everything is there on a
given day, many things are, including quite a lot of academic books on
out-of-the-way subjects.
	The Web is handy in a lot of ways, but for this sort of routine
bibliographic information, I'd hit the library first. MH

On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, Anthony Appleyard wrote:

> I have Karttunen's 2-volume textbook of Nahuatl for English-speakers. With
> thanks to members of this group for information about it. But it does not
> include a dictionary of the words used in the examples, but instead it keeps
> on referring me to a book called "Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl". Please
> what is the bibliographical information about this book?
>
> It also a few times refers me to Andrews's books. Please what is the latest
> information about them being re-published? On 14 Dec 2000 John F. Schwaller
> schwallr at selway.umt.edu told me that:-
>
> > The Andrews is LONG out of print. It has been accepted for publication in a
> > revised version at the University of Oklahoma Press.  I expect it to be
> > out in about a year. You can write U Oklahoma Press for more info.
>
>   I thereupon emailed to the University of Oklahoma Press oupress at ou.edu
> enquiring about Andrews's books, but they never answered.
>
> Citlalyani
>
>
>


From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Thu Jan  4 19:59:22 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (david sanchez)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:59:22 +0100
Subject: Origin of [tl]
Message-ID: <THU.4.JAN.2001.205922.0100.>

> For starters, go to the website of the Society for the Study of the
> Indigenous Languages of the Americas (ssila.org).
Thank you very much.

> But for the sort of things you are interested in, the fact of the matter
is it's  >been published in books and journals.  You really can't expect
people to >replicate for you in email

I don't expect that it was absurd ... if someone is not interested in my
comments, there is a good possibility: don't reply! I haven't demanded
any effort od nobody.

> what has been over years researched, written, reviewed for
> publication, published, and reviewed again.
OK! I agree with you.


From kammler at stud.uni-frankfurt.de  Thu Jan  4 19:03:19 2001
From: kammler at stud.uni-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:03:19 +0100
Subject: speaking of -tl
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1010103080303.28700E-100000@ariel.ucs.indian a.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.4.JAN.2001.200319.0100.>

At 08:03 03.01.01 -0500, you wrote:

>Does anyone know how the Kwakiutl pronounce their -tl?
Hi Michael,

Kwak'wala (Kwakiutl language) has a voiceless /tl/ which is about identical
to the respective sound in Nahuatl. There is also a voiced version of this:
/dl/ {were the l-component (lateral fricative) of the affricate is also
voiced}.

Actuallually, the -tl in "Kakiutl" is a misspelling, it represents another
phoneme: the voiceless lateral fricative [l~], the word is hence pronounced
[kwa:gyul~].
In some Nahuatl dialecs you find the voiceless fricative as a devoiced
underlying /l/, e.g. in central Guerrero. /yalwa/ "yesterday" is pronounced
[yal~wa], in rapid speech the /l/ might be further reduced to a mere
aspiration, i.e. [yahwa]. In other dialects without devoicing you might
hear something like [yalowa].

When Spanish exploring ships (like the "Sutil" and the "Mexicana") made
their way up the North West Coast of North America, the explorers were
wondering about possible links between North West Coast languages,
especially Nootka, and Nahuatl, because of some superficial sound
similarities. But there's nothing more to it and actually the languages
sound very different.

asta mostla
Henry

ATTENTION
***Neue Anschrift***New Address***
Henry Kammler
Max-Hirsch-Str.41
D-60386 FRANKFURT/M.
tel. ++49-69-94143915
**********************************


From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Thu Jan  4 20:10:23 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (david sanchez)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 21:10:23 +0100
Subject: speaking of -tl
Message-ID: <THU.4.JAN.2001.211023.0100.>

> Does anyone know how the Kwakiutl pronounce their -tl?

Maddieson (Patterns of sound, 1984) gives the following list
of languages with lateral affricates:

Voiceless lateral:    Haida, Tlingit, Chipewyan, Nootka, Squamish, Navaho,
Wintu, Quileute.
Voiceless aspirated lateral:    Chipewyan, Kwakw'ala (Kwakiutl)
Palatalized voiceless lateral:    Kabardian!!!!
voiced lateral:    Haida, Tlingit

This seems to indicate that /tl/ in Kwakiutl is a pulmonic egressive
voiceless
aspirated lateral affricate.


From Huaxyacac at aol.com  Fri Jan  5 04:51:50 2001
From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:51:50 EST
Subject: Andrews grammar; on-line texts
Message-ID: <THU.4.JAN.2001.235150.EST.>

Dick Andrews told me the other day that the manuscript for the revised
edition is at the press; it has yet to be typeset, however, so I personally
am not holding my breath.

While on the subject of on-line resources, I now have the full text of two
sixteenth-century sources up on my web site: Saville's translation of the
Anonymous Conqueror's Narrative of Some Things of New Spain and Phillips'
translation of the Historia de los Mexicanos por sus pinturas, at

http://anthropology.about.com/library/texts/Mesoamerica/Anonimo/blAnonConToC.h

tm

and

http://anthropology.about.com/library/texts/Mesoamerica/Pinturas/blPinturasTOC

.htm

respectively. Those who know Nahuatl will cringe at the representation of
native names in both (Temestitan, Vichilobos, etc.), but they do contain some
interesting info.

Alec Christensen
About Anthropology Guide
http://anthropology.about.com
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From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Fri Jan  5 23:57:01 2001
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:57:01 -0500
Subject: Andrews grammar; on-line texts
In-Reply-To: <a1.f6acb26.2786ace6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JAN.2001.185701.0500.>

Alec,

Thank you for pointing out these valuable resources, and speaking of such,
is anyone preparing a modern English or Spanish edition of Carochi,
on-line or in print?  I have the UNAM facsimile edition, but I would
certainly would jump on any eye friendly edition of my favorite Nahuatl
grammar.

thanks,
Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From Amapohuani at aol.com  Sat Jan  6 00:34:03 2001
From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 19:34:03 EST
Subject: Andrews grammar; on-line texts
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JAN.2001.193403.EST.>

In a message dated 1/5/01 5:05:57 PM, mdmorris at indiana.edu writes:

<< Alec,

Thank you for pointing out these valuable resources, and speaking of such,
is anyone preparing a modern English or Spanish edition of Carochi,
on-line or in print?  I have the UNAM facsimile edition, but I would
certainly would jump on any eye friendly edition of my favorite Nahuatl
grammar.

thanks,
Mark Morris >>

Listeros:

Yep. Jim Lockhart is working one up - see his OF THINGS OF THE INDIES.

Ye ixquich.
Barry D. Sell


From karttu at nantucket.net  Sat Jan  6 00:44:47 2001
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 19:44:47 -0500
Subject: Andrews grammar; on-line texts
Message-ID: <FRI.5.JAN.2001.194447.0500.>

I hear that an English translation of Carochi by James Lockhart is in press
at Stanford U. Press.  Keep your eye peeled for an announcement.

----------
>From: Mark David Morris <mdmorris at indiana.edu>
>To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
>Subject: Re: Andrews grammar; on-line texts
>Date: Fri, Jan 5, 2001, 6:57 PM
>

> Alec,
>
> Thank you for pointing out these valuable resources, and speaking of such,
> is anyone preparing a modern English or Spanish edition of Carochi,
> on-line or in print?  I have the UNAM facsimile edition, but I would
> certainly would jump on any eye friendly edition of my favorite Nahuatl
> grammar.
>
> thanks,
> Mark Morris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> La muerte tiene permiso a todo
>
> MDM, PhD Candidate
> Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
>
>


From paul at paulbarker.net  Sat Jan  6 13:03:50 2001
From: paul at paulbarker.net (paul at paulbarker.net)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 05:03:50 -0800
Subject: Tracing Nahuatl Poetry
Message-ID: <SAT.6.JAN.2001.050350.0800.>

Hi,

I am new to this list. I am trying to trace the origin and translation of the following two calssical Nahuatl texts, which I collected many years ago from a library in the UK. Is there any one able to help? Many thanks.

1) 	Nihualchocay nihaulicnotlamati ?an nicui canitl huiya tlaca anichuicaz yn toxochiuh ohuaye. Maic nina pantiaz cano ximo huaya, huaye. Nihuallaocoya ohuaya, ohuaye?.

2) 	Xictzotzona in mohuehueuh. Xihuehuetzca yc ixtlilxochitle xomittotoao in quauhquAhauc Mexico nic? mocue?alizchimalo cuecueyahau yan temalacatitlan y ximo chicauwaca netleya.

Paul Barker

Music and Information:
http://www.paulbarker.net

New CD of music:
http://www.sargasso.com


From Huaxyacac at aol.com  Sat Jan  6 19:26:01 2001
From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 14:26:01 EST
Subject: Carochi
Message-ID: <SAT.6.JAN.2001.142601.EST.>

We may end up with two English edtions of Carochi, then, since Andrews has
also been working on one. But I suspect if he does finish it it will be some
time yet.

Alec Christensen
About Anthropology Guide
http://anthropology.about.com
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From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Sun Jan  7 20:29:00 2001
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:29:00 -0600
Subject: Documentos indigenas
Message-ID: <SUN.7.JAN.2001.142900.0600.>

I would like to share with Nahuat-l subscribers the SUP-INFOR Web site, recently put up by Marc Thouvenot. I'm certain that you will find the free publications very interesting. Most are paleographic versions of documents in Nahuatl; there is also software for analyzing alphabetic and pictographic nahuatl documents. The links also have useful data. The URL is:
http://www.sup-infor.com/index.htm

Happy new year,

David Wright

***********************************************************

Quiero compartir con los suscriptores de Nahuat-l el sitio Web recientemente puesto en linea de Ediciones Sup-Infor. Estoy seguro de que encontraran sumamente interesantes las publicaciones que se ofrecen de manera gratuita en este nuevo sitio, gracias a los esfuerzos de Marc Thouvenot. La mayor parte consiste en versiones paleograficas de documentos en nahuatl. Hay software para el analisis de las escrituras alfabetica y pictografica del centro de Mexico. Los enlaces tambien tienen datos utiles. La URL del sitio mencionado es:
http://www.sup-infor.com/index.htm

Feliz a?o nuevo,

David Wright
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From kammler at stud.uni-frankfurt.de  Mon Jan  8 17:41:27 2001
From: kammler at stud.uni-frankfurt.de (Henry Kammler)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 18:41:27 +0100
Subject: Documentos indigenas
In-Reply-To: <008401c078e8$853eb900$48bee994@prodigy.net.mx>
Message-ID: <MON.8.JAN.2001.184127.0100.>

Tlasokamati, David,
the site looks very promising (partly under construction), it already
contains 48 nahuatl paleographies in text format + two in otom?.  There is
no explanation what the programs are good for, though.

Henry

ATTENTION
***Neue Anschrift***New Address***
Henry Kammler
Max-Hirsch-Str.41
D-60386 FRANKFURT/M.
tel. ++49-69-94143915
**********************************


From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Mon Jan  8 18:19:01 2001
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:19:01 -0600
Subject: Documentos indigenas
Message-ID: <MON.8.JAN.2001.121901.0600.>

Temoa is for searching through the paleographic versions in Nahuatl. The nice feature is that any search will find variant spellings of the same phonetic sequence. For example, a search for "ihuan" will locate ihua, ihuan, io?, ioan, iuan, iv?, ivan, jhoan, joan, juan, jvan, yhua, yhu?, yhuan, yoa, yo?, yoan, yuan and yvan. (See article in Amerindia no. 17, 1992).

I haven't used Pohua yet, but I looked at an incipient beta version five years ago. It's a tool for analyzing pictograms in nahuatl documents.
  ----- Mensaje original ----- 
  De: Henry Kammler 
  Para: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu 
  Enviado: Lunes 8 de Enero de 2001 11:41 AM
  Asunto: Re: Documentos indigenas


  Tlasokamati, David,
  the site looks very promising (partly under construction), it already 
  contains 48 nahuatl paleographies in text format + two in otom?.  There is 
  no explanation what the programs are good for, though.

  Henry

  ATTENTION
  ***Neue Anschrift***New Address***
  Henry Kammler
  Max-Hirsch-Str.41
  D-60386 FRANKFURT/M.
  tel. ++49-69-94143915
  **********************************

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From paulbarker at terra.com.mx  Tue Jan  9 08:15:13 2001
From: paulbarker at terra.com.mx (Paul Barker)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 02:15:13 -0600
Subject: Resending Request for help
Message-ID: <TUE.9.JAN.2001.021513.0600.>

Dear List,
With apologies for the repetition, I am reposting my request for help in
identifying the following two classical Nahuatl texts. the first is a
lament and the second a war or fighting poem. I am keen to discover their
origins.
many thanks
paul barker

The texts:

Nihualchocay nihaulicnotlamati ?an nicui canitl huiya tlaca anichuicaz yn
toxochiuh ohuaye. Maic nina pantiaz cano ximo huaya, huaye. Nihuallaocoya
ohuaya, ohuaye&#8230;.

A classical Nahuatl lament.

Xictzotzona in mohuehueuh. Xihuehuetzca yc ixtlilxochitle xomittotoao in
quauhquAhauc Mexico nic? mocue?alizchimalo cuecueyahau yan temalacatitlan y
ximo chicauwaca netleya.

more information and music at http://www.paulbarker.net
new CD of music released:
http://www.sargasso.com

_________________________________________________________________
Terra
!Internet mas tuyo que nunca!
www.terra.com.mx


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                               http://www.umt.edu/provost/


From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx  Thu Jan 11 18:00:20 2001
From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:00:20 -0600
Subject: "o", "u", and "u"
Message-ID: <THU.11.JAN.2001.120020.0600.>

I am working on a nahuatl document from los altos de jalisco whose writer
seems to distinguish between the "o", its "u" variant, and the "u" of "cu"
and "hu". The "u" in "hu" and "cu" is written with the normal letter "u" (it
has a little tail). The "u" which is a pronunciation variant of the "o" is
written with a letter "o" that is open at the top, kind of like a "u"
without the tail. The "real" "o" is written with a normal closed letter "o".
Has anyone seen this fenomenon before? Is it documented? Also, when I get
this published, I would like to distinguish between the three sounds in the
transcription by using three different letters. Can a linguist give me
advice on an appropriate symbol for the "u" variant?
    John Sullivan
    Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas


From karttu at nantucket.net  Thu Jan 11 18:34:59 2001
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:34:59 -0500
Subject: "o", "u", and "u"
Message-ID: <THU.11.JAN.2001.133459.0500.>

Dear John,

The orthographic "u" of "hu" and "cu" is not a vowel like the other two.
It's part of digraphs for the consonants /w/ and (resorting to yet another
digraph because I can't do superscripts in email) /kw/. This latter
represents labialized /k/ as in English quick or Spanish cuando, but
permitted phonotactically at both the beginning and end of syllables in
Nahuatl.

So you are really only looking for two distinct vowel symbols.  The hu and
cu are predictable packages.  Won't u and o do?

Fran

----------
>From: John Sullivan <jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx>
>To: nahuat-l <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
>Subject: "o", "u", and "u"
>Date: Thu, Jan 11, 2001, 1:00 PM
>

> I am working on a nahuatl document from los altos de jalisco whose writer
> seems to distinguish between the "o", its "u" variant, and the "u" of "cu"
> and "hu". The "u" in "hu" and "cu" is written with the normal letter "u" (it
> has a little tail). The "u" which is a pronunciation variant of the "o" is
> written with a letter "o" that is open at the top, kind of like a "u"
> without the tail. The "real" "o" is written with a normal closed letter "o".
> Has anyone seen this fenomenon before? Is it documented? Also, when I get
> this published, I would like to distinguish between the three sounds in the
> transcription by using three different letters. Can a linguist give me
> advice on an appropriate symbol for the "u" variant?
>     John Sullivan
>     Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
>


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Jan 11 19:04:05 2001
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:04:05 -0500
Subject: "o", "u", and "u"
In-Reply-To: <200101111840.NAA08544@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <THU.11.JAN.2001.140405.0500.>

John,
The digraph /kw/, I believe, should have a superscript w. Otherwise, the
historically written independent o and u, which are the same phoneme in
Nahuatl, could be written either /o/ or /u/, where //=italic.

Michael


On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, Frances Karttunen wrote:

> Dear John,
>
> The orthographic "u" of "hu" and "cu" is not a vowel like the other two.
> It's part of digraphs for the consonants /w/ and (resorting to yet another
> digraph because I can't do superscripts in email) /kw/. This latter
> represents labialized /k/ as in English quick or Spanish cuando, but
> permitted phonotactically at both the beginning and end of syllables in
> Nahuatl.
>
> So you are really only looking for two distinct vowel symbols.  The hu and
> cu are predictable packages.  Won't u and o do?
>
> Fran
>
> ----------
> >From: John Sullivan <jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx>
> >To: nahuat-l <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
> >Subject: "o", "u", and "u"
> >Date: Thu, Jan 11, 2001, 1:00 PM
> >
>
> > I am working on a nahuatl document from los altos de jalisco whose writer
> > seems to distinguish between the "o", its "u" variant, and the "u" of "cu"
> > and "hu". The "u" in "hu" and "cu" is written with the normal letter "u" (it
> > has a little tail). The "u" which is a pronunciation variant of the "o" is
> > written with a letter "o" that is open at the top, kind of like a "u"
> > without the tail. The "real" "o" is written with a normal closed letter "o".
> > Has anyone seen this fenomenon before? Is it documented? Also, when I get
> > this published, I would like to distinguish between the three sounds in the
> > transcription by using three different letters. Can a linguist give me
> > advice on an appropriate symbol for the "u" variant?
> >     John Sullivan
> >     Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
> >
>
>


Michael McCafferty
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

*******************************************************************************
"So, who you gonna believe,
me or your own eyes?"

              -Chico Marx

*******************************************************************************


From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx  Thu Jan 11 19:16:52 2001
From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:16:52 -0600
Subject: "o", "u", and "u"
In-Reply-To: <200101111840.NAA08544@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <THU.11.JAN.2001.131652.0600.>

Fran,
    You're right.   The "u" sound and the "w" sound will always be
distinguished because the latter will appear as "cu" or "hu". Instead of
proposing confusing new alphabets, I guess I'll just comment on what this
scribe was trying to do.
    John

on 1/11/01 12:34 PM, Frances Karttunen at karttu at nantucket.net wrote:

> Dear John,
>
> The orthographic "u" of "hu" and "cu" is not a vowel like the other two.
> It's part of digraphs for the consonants /w/ and (resorting to yet another
> digraph because I can't do superscripts in email) /kw/. This latter
> represents labialized /k/ as in English quick or Spanish cuando, but
> permitted phonotactically at both the beginning and end of syllables in
> Nahuatl.
>
> So you are really only looking for two distinct vowel symbols.  The hu and
> cu are predictable packages.  Won't u and o do?
>
> Fran
>
> ----------
>> From: John Sullivan <jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx>
>> To: nahuat-l <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
>> Subject: "o", "u", and "u"
>> Date: Thu, Jan 11, 2001, 1:00 PM
>>
>
>> I am working on a nahuatl document from los altos de jalisco whose writer
>> seems to distinguish between the "o", its "u" variant, and the "u" of "cu"
>> and "hu". The "u" in "hu" and "cu" is written with the normal letter "u" (it
>> has a little tail). The "u" which is a pronunciation variant of the "o" is
>> written with a letter "o" that is open at the top, kind of like a "u"
>> without the tail. The "real" "o" is written with a normal closed letter "o".
>> Has anyone seen this fenomenon before? Is it documented? Also, when I get
>> this published, I would like to distinguish between the three sounds in the
>> transcription by using three different letters. Can a linguist give me
>> advice on an appropriate symbol for the "u" variant?
>>     John Sullivan
>>     Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
>>


From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Sat Jan 20 15:36:35 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:36:35 +0100
Subject: Ohui caxtiltecacamanalli !!!
Message-ID: <SAT.20.JAN.2001.163635.0100.>

Cuales son las principales dificultades que encuentran 
los ni?os hablantes de nahuatl cuando empiezan a aprender 
espa?ol (castellano)? 

Se ha realizado algun estudio de adquisici?n del castellano 
como segunda lengua entre la poblaci?n monolingue en nahuatl? 

Ixpantzinco. 

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From walden at dakotacom.net  Sun Jan 21 00:05:45 2001
From: walden at dakotacom.net (Walden Browne)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 17:05:45 -0700
Subject: Sahagun and the Transition to Modernity
Message-ID: <SAT.20.JAN.2001.170545.0700.>

Many people who subscribe to this listserv appear to have an interest in
Sahag?n. I also recall that a few months ago there was some discussion about
the use of this listserv for the purposes of advertising. I do not recall
what the final consensus was, but if you object to authors announcing there
books here, read no further and delete this message.


My book, Sahag?n and the Transition to Modernity, was recently published by
the University of Oklahoma Press. Many of my ideas about Sahag?n are
unorthodox, and I expect that many of them will prove very controversial in
the eyes of scholars in the area of Sahag?n or Nahua studies. Nevertheless,
I hope to at least encourage scholars to rethink some well-entrenched
assumptions about the nature of Sahag?n's work and generate further
discussion.
More information about the book can be found at the University of Oklahoma
Press' web site:
http://www.ou.edu/oupress/brow3233.htm
or at my web site:
http://www.dakotacom.net/~walden
I apologize in advance to those who find advertising on this listserv in any
form whatsoever offensive.
-- Walden Browne


John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                               http://www.umt.edu/provost/


From rmedinagarcia at quepasa.com  Fri Jan 26 02:14:23 2001
From: rmedinagarcia at quepasa.com (rmedinagarcia at quepasa.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:14:23 -0800
Subject: stereotypes: nahuatl
Message-ID: <THU.25.JAN.2001.181423.0800.>

I have seen some movies with the "India Maria." To me they seem in many ways insulting to indigenous people but to what degree do you guys think that her pronunciation of Spanish words are influenced by Nahuatl? I think her substitution of "o", "u" seem derived from Nahuatl.  Is this true?
Her phonetic pronunciation of Spanish seems like the stereotypical view of indigenous people's pronunciation.  Does anybody else detect any other language phonetic influence, in the India Maria's pronunciation?



*** Obtenga su email gratis en http://www.quepasa.com ***


From William.Bright at Colorado.EDU  Fri Jan 26 17:53:07 2001
From: William.Bright at Colorado.EDU (william bright)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:53:07 -0700
Subject: stereotypes: nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <20010126021423.27037.cpmta@c017.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JAN.2001.105307.0700.>

it's a long time since i saw the "india maria", but my recollection is that
her speech shows mergers of "i" with "e", and of "o" with "u" in
NON-accented syllables only; thus she might say "quimado" instead of
"quemado", and "cucina" instead of "cocina". i think this is a stereotyped
characteristic of much rustic, non-standard spanish in other parts of latin
america, not just in mexico, and not just of indians. so i doubt if it has
anything to do with the fact that "o" and "u" do not contrast in many
dialects of nahuatl. asta moztlatzinco; bill bright
--
William Bright
Professor Emeritus of Linguistics & Anthropology, UCLA
Professor Adjoint of Linguistics, University of Colorado, Boulder
Editor, Written Language and Literacy
Editor, Native American Placenames of the United States
1625 Mariposa Avenue, Boulder, CO 80302
Tel. 303-444-4274
FAX 303-413-0017
Email william.bright at colorado.edu

William Bright's website: http://www.ncidc.org/bright


From micc at home.com  Sat Jan 27 00:29:53 2001
From: micc at home.com (mario)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 16:29:53 -0800
Subject: stereotypes: nahuatl
Message-ID: <FRI.26.JAN.2001.162953.0800.>

Here I go jumping into a "politically correct" battle......

Although the india maria character is a stereotype,  I have always been amused and astonished at how she mimics EXACTLY  my grandmother's and uncles Spanish. My family is from a small town in the State of Hidalgo, and my grandmother claims we are "Azteca-Otomi"  or better said "nahuatl -
~Na~nu"

I believe that the "indito" sing song form of speech (as it is disparagingly called by most mestizos)  is definitely ...and defiantly.... based on indigenous language prototypes.  Whether it is based on Nahuatl roots, or perhaps  tonal differences that make up individual languages (as in
Mixteco and other languages) is unknown to me.

>"To me they seem in many ways insulting to indigenous people" ...... To many danzantes (and that is the extent of my interactions with indigenous and "indigenous-thinking" mestizos) I have talked to, they see la India Maria as a Native American Island of identity in a vast sea of Blond
haired- wannabes, those vast majority of people that  dominate Mexican and Latin-American media.

Of course, through our more politicized eyes, we see a more negative image.

mario



rmedinagarcia at quepasa.com wrote:

> I have seen some movies with the "India Maria." To me they seem in many ways insulting to indigenous people but to what degree do you guys think that her pronunciation of Spanish words are influenced by Nahuatl? I think her substitution of "o", "u" seem derived from Nahuatl.  Is this true?
> Her phonetic pronunciation of Spanish seems like the stereotypical view of indigenous people's pronunciation.  Does anybody else detect any other language phonetic influence, in the India Maria's pronunciation?
>
> *** Obtenga su email gratis en http://www.quepasa.com ***


From adriana5 at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 27 16:35:54 2001
From: adriana5 at earthlink.net (Adriana Zavala)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 11:35:54 -0500
Subject: India Maria
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JAN.2001.113554.0500.>

Just my two cents:
FYI
the attribution of this mode of speech to "Inditos" goes much farther back
that India Maria. In the "revistas" of the 1920s (vaudeville style comedic
reviews) actors portraying Indians frequently spoke in this manner. And this
in the context of the so-called postrevolutionary exaltation of Mexico's
indigenous heritage.

Adriana Zavala
Ph.D Candidate
History of Art
Brown University
adriana5 at earthlink.net


From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx  Sat Jan 27 17:50:09 2001
From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 11:50:09 -0600
Subject: Nahuatl clases in Zacatecas
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JAN.2001.115009.0600.>

    Mexican public education offers a low-cost alternative to studying
n?huatl at Yale or Mexican private institutes. The following is a brief
description of what we do during the normal school year (February-June, and
August-December) at the Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas.
    I have designed a two trimester sequence of Spoken Huastecan Nahuatl
through the university Language Center. It is based on the (antiquated, I
know) methodology I learned while working as a Spanish TA for Stephen
Krashen at the University of Southern California, and Tracy Terrel at the
University of California, San Diego. There is no grammar, translation, books
or writing. No Spanish (or English) is allowed in the classroom. Just pure
spoken n?huatl from day one. There is lots of TPR and close daily
interaction with native speakers. The next sesion begins around mid March.
    I also teach an ongoing workshop in transcription and translation of
colonial n?huatl documents through the History Ph.D. program, where I am a
professor.
    The U.A.Z. is one of the few Mexican public universities that is
actively resisting the trend to raise tuition in Mexico. The current total
cost for taking both of these courses (Modern and Classical Nahuatl) for a
trimester is under 500 pesos (it doesn't matter where you are from).
    We are planning to start intensive courses during the vacation months
(January and July). They would cost a little more (to pay the teachers), but
then again, it wouldn't be more than 2000 pesos. I'll send more information
on this later.
    If anybody has questions, feel free to contact me:
John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Doctorado en Historia
Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx
(4) 922-9848 (office phone and fax)


From micc at home.com  Sat Jan 27 18:28:52 2001
From: micc at home.com (mario)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 10:28:52 -0800
Subject: India Maria
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JAN.2001.102852.0800.>

Quite true!

In the old radio "comedias", movies of the "golden era" of Mexican cinema, and
in past TV and radio commercials, the "indito" dialect was used by the mass
media to differentiate the strong class differences between the Euro-centric
dominant culture and the "indios, patas rajadas"...indians shredded feet... an
allusion to the indigenous people going barefoot... and thus barbarians)

Sometimes, as in the stories of la india maria, the indito dialect of Spanish
was used to exaggerate the "innocence" of the protagonists against the ultra
sophistication of their rich, powerful and evil antagonists.

But usually the indito protagonists succeeds and becomes part of the larger
dominant Mestizo culture in a tragic form of "happy ending"........

And we wonder why so many beautiful Raza finds it necessary to bleach their dark
hair, and demean our people who are "pobrecitos estan TAN prietos!!!"


mario e. aguilar
www.mexicayotl.org

Adriana Zavala wrote:

> Just my two cents:
> FYI
> the attribution of this mode of speech to "Inditos" goes much farther back
> that India Maria. In the "revistas" of the 1920s (vaudeville style comedic
> reviews) actors portraying Indians frequently spoke in this manner. And this
> in the context of the so-called postrevolutionary exaltation of Mexico's
> indigenous heritage.
>
> Adriana Zavala
> Ph.D Candidate
> History of Art
> Brown University
> adriana5 at earthlink.net


From Christian.Grote at hfm.uni-weimar.de  Sat Jan 27 21:22:36 2001
From: Christian.Grote at hfm.uni-weimar.de (Christian Grote)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:22:36 +0100
Subject: Preguntas sobre la relación Náhuatl-Español coloquial en CA
Message-ID: <SAT.27.JAN.2001.222236.0100.>

Como yo, estudiante de la ling??stica espa?ola, me intereso muchamente
para la Centroam?rica y sus dialectos, especialmente para El Salvador,
tengo unas preguntas, y talvez pueden ayudarme:


   * ?qu? influjo tiene el n?huatl en el espa?ol coloquial de CA, y
     especialmente el Pipil en El Salvador?
   * en El Salvador, hay una forma especial del fen?meno "ye?smo", se
     puede decir que hay un "dcho?smo": la "ll" se pronuncia como la
     "y", pero el "y" en posici?n inicial se pronuncia casi como un
     "dch". ?es un fen?meno general de la zona n?huatl, y es atribuable
     a un fen?meno fon?tico del n?huatl? - O, ?no hay ninguna relaci?n a
     la lengua indigena?

Me gustar?a muchamente si algui?n(a) pudiera responder a estas
preguntas. ?Muchas gracias!

Christian Grote, Stud. phil.

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From davius_sanctex at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 28 00:33:01 2001
From: davius_sanctex at hotmail.com (Davius Sanctex)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 00:33:01 -0000
Subject: Preguntas sobre la relación Náhuatl-Español coloquial en CA
Message-ID: <SUN.28.JAN.2001.003301.0000.>

>* ?qu? influjo tiene el n?huatl en el espa?ol coloquial de CA, y
>especialmente el Pipil en El Salvador?

M?s bien poco. La poblaci?n que habla n?huatl no llega al 3%
y en muchas zonas los ni?os aunque lo entienden y lo escuchan
cotidianamente de sus padres son educados en castellano.
El Pipil cuenta s?lo con unos 2000 hablantes con lo cual lo que
haya influido hasta ahora, ya no lo influir? en el futuro!

Naturalmente el n?huatl ha dejado rastros en el castellano de
M?xico se me ocurren dos construcciones t?picamente mejicanas,
que no se dan fuera en Espa?a o Argentina y que pueden ser
explicadas a partir del n?huatl:

(1a) se los dije (se lo dije a ustedes)
(1b) ni-kim-ihlia 'yo-ustedes-dije'

(2a) ya me lo rompiste, mi plato
(2b) o-ti-nech-tla-panilih mo-tepalca-uh
     'ya-tu-me-algo-rompiste mi-plato'

Otros fen?menos como el "ahorita" o el "lueguito" tambi?n
podr?an estar influidos por el sufijo n?huatl "-tzin" que
es marca tanto el diminuitivo como el honor?fico y de ah?
que los diminutivos se empleen en CA para hablar educadamente.

>* en El Salvador, hay una forma especial del fen?meno "ye?smo", se
>puede decir que hay un "dcho?smo": la "ll" se pronuncia como la
>"y", pero el "y" en posici?n inicial se pronuncia casi como un
>"dch". ?es un fen?meno general de la zona n?huatl, y es  atribuable
>a un fen?meno fon?tico del n?huatl? - O, ?no hay ninguna relaci?n a
>la lengua indigena?

Probablemente NO pueda atribuirse al n?huatl ya que en n?huatl
no posee sonidos sonoros a principio de palabra (de hecho ning?n
fonema tiene contrapartida sonora). Los al?fonos sonoros y sordos
se hallan en distribuci?n complementaria (por ejemplo detr?s de
nasal aparecen al?fonos sonoros, pero nunca a principio de palabra!)

Atentamente,
David S. (UPC)

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at  Mon Jan 29 00:45:02 2001
From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 01:45:02 +0100
Subject: translations
Message-ID: <MON.29.JAN.2001.014502.0100.>

Does anyone know if there exists (colonial) Nahuatl translations of
occidental philosophic texts? Any recommendation is very welcome
Thanks in advance
Juergen Stowasser

--
Juergen Stowasser
Burggasse 114/2/8
A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a
Austria
tel: 01/ 524 54 60  v  0676/ 398 66 79
http://www.univie.ac.at/meso


From swood at darkwing.uoregon.edu  Tue Jan 30 06:18:37 2001
From: swood at darkwing.uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:18:37 -0800
Subject: Looking for Robert Stone and Yasmin Khan
Message-ID: <MON.29.JAN.2001.221837.0800.>

Nahuatlatos/as,

I am wondering if anyone can help me locate a current e-mail address for
Mesoamericanists Robert Stone and/or Yasmin Khan?

Thanks!
Stephanie Wood