From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Jun 1 03:05:12 2001 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 22:05:12 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Question In-Reply-To: <200105311845.f4VIjD308412@ns1.nantucket.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 May 2001, Frances Karttunen wrote: > > The other "tlael-" with negative connotations is actually tlahyel-. > Tlahyelli means something dirty, foul. > In the following examples of "tlahyel-", culled from the Florentine Codex, I spelled the morpheme in question as "tlahe:l(-li)" as Andrews spells it, but I don't dis-agree with Fran's spelling -- and I think that hers is the more likely one (the sequence /hC/ is not uncommon in Nahuatl, but intervocalic /h/ occurs normally only in the case of reduplication). One interesting point in the extended semantics of "tlahyelli" is that, while it primarily refers to 'dirty, foul, disgusting, hateful, etc.', it also is used adverbially to mean 'exceedingly', parallel to English 'filthy drunk' (having nothing to do with literal dirt) and 'filthy rich'. In some modern dialects "pitzotl" [pig] is used in the same way: "nicpitzonequi" 'I *really* want it' (San Miguel Canoa, Puebla). And I *seem* to remember (but I'm very unsure) that it's possible to say "nimitzpitzotlazohtla" 'I love you *a lot*' without any lewd connotations. For the sake of giving a tlapehualli that shows the semantic work of 'tlahyelli', I include the list below. Note that in some cases there is no English gloss... yet... *yet*... *YET*... Best regards, Joe tlahe:lli*** cuauhtlaelli. . . cuauhtlailli. . . eztlaelli. bloody flux. . eztlahelli. bloody flux. . eztlahilli. bloody flux. . huellaelittaloni. . . huellaelittaloni. something which is worthy of abomination. . tetlaelli. . . tetlaelti. . . tetlayelli. . . tlaelatl. dirty water. . tlaelchihua , mo-. it is produced in abundance; they are produced in abundance. . tlaelihuintic. filthily drunk. . tlaelitta , mitz-. she detests you, she hates you. . tlaelitta , qui-. he hates it. . tlaelittaloni. abhorrent. . tlaelittaloz. he will be abominated, he will regarded with hate; it will be abhorred. . tlaelittili , otiquimmo-. you [H.] abominated them. . tlaelittilia , quimo-. he [H.] abhors him. . tlaelitto. he is hated; he is detested; it is abhorred. . tlaelittoni. destestable. . tlaelittoz. he will be hated. . tlaelitztihui , qui-. they go regarding it as revolting; they go hating it. . tlaellatol , i-. her vile words. . tlaellaza , mo-. she scatters hatred. . tlaelli. bloody flux; filth; excrement; flux. . tlaellitalozque. they will be hated. . tlaelmaca , quimo-. he overindulges himself in it. . tlaelnappa. . . tlaelnemi. . . tlaelnequi , qui-. he needs it immoderately. . tlaelpaquiznequi. it provokes lewdness. . tlaelpatli. medicine for diarrhea, for the flux. . tlaelquiahuiz. it will rain hard. . tlaelquiyahuitl. hard rain, downpour. . tlaeltetl. common stone. . tlaeltextli. poorly ground flour. . tlaeltezcatl. ugly mirror. . tlaelti , quin-. it nauseated them. . tlaelti , te-. ; it sickened one. . tlaeltia , mo-. he becomes nauseated; he has nausea. . tlaeltia , qui-. it nauseates him, it disgusts him. . tlaeltiani , mo-. one that is nauseated. . tlaeltique , mo-. they were nauseated. . tlahelchichipol. . . tlahelcihuatl. detestable woman. . tlahelconepol. disgusting child. . tlahelcuani. . . tlahelhuehue. vile old person. . tlahellaquetza. he tells indecent stories. . tlahellatoa. he speaks lewdly. . tlahellaza , mo-. he scatters hatred. . tlahellazani , mo-. one who scatters hatred. . tlahelli. filth; flux. . tlahello. filth; revolting; filthy. . tlahelmayahui , mo-. . . tlahelmayahuini , mo-. one who spreads hatred. . tlahelnelo , mo-. he dirtied himself. . tlahelneloa , timo-. you defile yourself. . tlaheloa , mo-. she is hateful. . tlahelpilli. revolting noble. . tlahelpol. ; revolting person; revolting. . tlahelti , te-. . . tlaheltia , te-. he causes disgust. . tlahilli. flux. . tlahiloquichtli. rabid warrior. . tlailitta , te-. he despises people; she looks at people with anger. . tlaillaza , mo-. they shed filth. . tlailli. bloody flux; filth; flux; excrement. . tlailmayahui , mo-. they scatter filth. . tlailtetl. common stone. . tlayelli. flux. . tlayeltetl. ; common stone; . . From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Fri Jun 1 08:04:32 2001 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:04:32 GMT Subject: Tlilli tlapalli In-Reply-To: <001201c0e9ea$6eecb6c0$70bee994@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: David Wright wrote:- > Does anyone have any idea what could have been the reason Dibble and > Anderson (Florentine Codex VI: 259) translated the metaphor "Intlil > intlapal" as "their black, their red" rather than "their black, their > colors"? The translation of "tlapalli" as "red" keeps cropping up ... Similar happens in Russian: [krasnyy] = "red", [perkrasnyy] = "beautiful", as if in the times before modern chemical industrial dyes came, red was the most readily available bright decorative color. Citlalya:ni From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Jun 1 11:05:31 2001 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 07:05:31 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Question Message-ID: > > In the following examples of "tlahyel-", culled from the Florentine > Codex, I spelled the morpheme in question as "tlahe:l(-li)" as Andrews > spells i. Notice also that I didn't mark the vowel of the second syllable long. The reason I didn't make the vowel long in the canonical form in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl is that the vowel is not attested as long in the Bancroft manuscript, and Tetelcingo Nahuatl seems to have the reflex of a short vowel. On the other hand, I am pretty sure that tlahyelli is derived from the verb ihya:ya 'to stink' which has a long vowel (albeit a different vowel) in that syllable. An attestation from Zacapoaxtla actually has a: rather than e in the derived noun. Many thanks to Joe for all these attested uses from the Florentine Codex. It's always a pleasure and a learning experience to receive his examples. Tlazohca:mati huel miac! Fran From mdmorris at indiana.edu Fri Jun 1 15:31:21 2001 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 10:31:21 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Question In-Reply-To: <200106011004.f51A4p320364@ns1.nantucket.net> Message-ID: Fran and Joe, A mil, millon de la setenta gracias to both of you, realmente aprendi demasiado and my otherwise gray morning has a little bit more for thinking. thanks, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From notoca at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 13:47:11 2001 From: notoca at hotmail.com (Chichiltic Coyotl) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 21:47:11 +0800 Subject: Tlilli tlapalli Message-ID: Hi Could it be because tlapalli is a metaphorical reference to blood? EZR >From: David Wright > >Does anyone have any idea what could have been the reason Dibble and >Anderson (Florentine Codex VI: 259) translated the metaphor "Intlil >intlapal" as "their black, their red" rather than "their black, their >colors"? The translation of "tlapalli" as "red" keeps cropping up in _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Jun 3 00:17:11 2001 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:17:11 -0600 Subject: Tlilli tlapalli Message-ID: I've been digging around, and I'm more and more convinced that the traditional (20th century) translation of tlilli tlapalli as "the black, the red", in reference to codices, writing, wisdom and tradition, is imprecise, and that "the black, the colors" gives a much better idea of the appearance and technique of pre-Hispanic and early colonial central Mexican pictorial texts, and probably reflects more accurately the original concept. Tlapalli, in certain compound words, refers to redness, but both Molina and Sahagún make it quite clear that tlapalli is a generic term for colors that are used to paint or to dye. Important 20th century nahuatlatos like Sullivan, Dibble and Anderson have translated tlilli tlapalli (or the phrase intlil intlapal from the Florentine Codex) as "the black, the red". My first posting on this subject asked why this is so, since it seems to contradict the basic meaning of tlapalli and the fact that red doesn't have an obviously predominant role in central Mexican codices. Before going with my first impulse and dismissing the concept of "red and black" as a firmly entrenched error, I was looking for evidence to support it. I haven't found any, but I did find a footnote in an article by Seler (Abhandlungen: II-3-13, 717-66; Labyrinthos English edition: III, 113, note 11) that could be what started the whole thing, back in 1904: "Tlilli tlapalli, the black and red color, is therefore the painting, the writing. And Tlillan tlapallan, "land of black and red color,", is accordingly the land of writing. The words 'black and red color' characterize very well the appearance of the picture writings, the Maya manuscripts in particular [oops, wrong region and language -DW]. [...] It is of advantage to call attention to this, in view of the fantastic and arbitrary explanations of another kind which have been attempted in both earlier and recent years." Are there any objections to throwing out "the black, the red" and using the more precise metaphorical phrase "the black, the colors"? - David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Jun 3 02:01:46 2001 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 20:01:46 -0600 Subject: Tlilli tlapalli Message-ID: >Are there any objections to throwing out "the black, the red" and using the more precise metaphorical phrase "the black, the colors"? I object to the use of "the black, the colors"; while more precise than "the black, the red", the former phrase is less precise than Karttunen's suggestion last Thursday: "the black ink, the colored paint". López Austin and García Quintana, in the glossary at the back of their paleographic version of the Castillian text of the Florentine Codex, hit on the same solution for translating "Intlil, intlapal in huehuetque": "Su tinta, su pintura de los viejos". (Don't worry about me, I often talk to myself when I get wrapped up in a problem.) (:o ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From campbel at indiana.edu Sun Jun 3 05:34:13 2001 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 00:34:13 -0500 Subject: A Stinking Nahuatl Question In-Reply-To: <200106011004.f51A4p320364@ns1.nantucket.net> Message-ID: Don't blame me >8-) for bringing "stink" to the list -- I'm glad Fran brought it up. It's a morpheme whose occurrence in words in naturally spelled text causes problems in recognition. 'ihya:ya' frequently is written without the glottal stop, but 'iyaya' is still easy enough to recognize. Then the tendency to drop 'y' after 'i' in the spelling gives us 'iaya' and the difficulty increases. But the opacity *really* grows when the morphological process of deleting '-ya' on verb stems in certain derivations can actually leave only the string 'ia' intact. Below are some collected examples. Although it might go without saying, I would always appreciate comments that would lead to more analyses. Just in case someone might read over "fishseller" without a chuckle, note that it means "one who sells something stinking". Best regards, Joe On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Frances Karttunen wrote: > On the other hand, I am pretty sure that tlahyelli is derived from the verb > ihya:ya 'to stink' which has a long vowel (albeit a different vowel) in that > syllable. An attestation from Zacapoaxtla actually has a: rather than e in > the derived noun. ihya:ya*** [i]xcaliyac , tla-. stinking tortilla. . aiyac. odorless. . camaxoquiaca , in-. the bad odor of their mouths. . cuitlahyac. stinking like excrement. . cuitlayac. ; smelling of excrement. . hiyac. stinking. . ihyac. ; aromatic; evil-smelling; having a foul odor; scented; stinking; foul smelling; having a bad smell. . ihyaca. its scent; its smell. . ihyalpatic. extremely foul smelling. . ihyatatl. evil-smelling thing. . ihyaxtihui. they go stinking. . ihyaya. it has an aroma; it produces an aroma; it produces a pleasing aroma; it spreads an aroma; it stinks; they stink. . iiaxtimani , tla-. it keeps stinking. . iyac. ; stinking. . iyaca. . . iyaca , m[o]-. your stench, your evil odor; your evil atmosphere. . iyaca , t[o]-. our stench. . iyaca. his stench; its aroma; its odor; its scent; stench; bad smell. . iyax. it stank. . iyaya , on-. it spreads its fragrance. . iyaya. it has an aroma, it smells; it stinks. . iyayaliz. its odor; its stench. . miquiciyac. smelling of death. . miquiciyaltic. smelling much of death. . miquizhiyaltic. deathly stench. . miquizihyaya. it stinks of death. . tamaliyac. stinking tamale. . tamaliyacatzintli. stinking tamale. . tlaliyac. ; copperas; evil-smelling; stinking; fetid; sulphate of copper. . tzopelicaiyaya. it is stinking sweet. . tzoyac. it is fetid. . tzoyaya. it emits a fetid odor; it smells foul; it stinks. . xoquiac. fetid, stinking; foul-smelling; of fetid smell; smelly; spoiled. . xoquialtic. . . xoquiaya. . . xoquiyac. stinking, foul odor; spoiled. . xoquiyacacohuia , mo-. they buy stinking things. . xoquiyacanamacac. fish seller. . xoquiyaltic. stinking, smelly. . From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Jun 3 19:17:22 2001 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 13:17:22 -0600 Subject: Tlilli tlapalli: weighing the evidence Message-ID: Following an off-list tip from Mark David Morris and a reference in Boone's Stories in Red and Black, I saw that the tlacuilos depicted in Codex Mendoza (70r), Codex Vienna (48b) and Codex Telleriano-Remensis (30r) are shown painting, effectively, with red and black paint. These examples would tend to support the "red and black" translation of "tlilli tlapalli." The Nahuatl metaphor "tlilli tlapalli nictlalia", translated by Molina (II, 147v) as "dar buen ejemplo", was expressed in classical Otomi with the juxtaposition of the word for drawing plus the generic term for color. The interlinguistic use of metaphors in the multilinguistic communities of central Mexico is not unusual; a similar example is the metaphorical concept altepetl, which has a literal equivalent in Otomi. (Sorry, the need for abundant diacritics precludes giving the Otomi examples by e-mail; both can be found in Urbano's trilingual --Castillian / Nahuatl / Otomi-- dictionary, under "Dar buen exemplo" and "Pueblo de todos juntamente". The Otomi equivalent of altepetl is found in alphabetically written colonial Otomi manuscripts, not just in Urbano's lexicon; I haven't yet checked the mss. for the Otomi equivalent of "tlilli tlapalli".) This would tend to support the "ink and paint" translation of "tlilli tlapalli". At this point the balance seems inclined in favor of "ink and paint", especially considering Molina's and Sahagun's translations of "tlapalli" as pigments in general. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Amapohuani at aol.com Sun Jun 3 20:06:21 2001 From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 16:06:21 EDT Subject: Tlilli tlapalli Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/01 4:26:13 PM, dcwright at prodigy.net.mx writes: << I've been digging around, and I'm more and more convinced that the traditional (20th century) translation of tlilli tlapalli as "the black, the red", in reference to codices, writing, wisdom and tradition, is imprecise, and that "the black, the colors" gives a much better idea of the appearance and technique of pre-Hispanic and early colonial central Mexican pictorial texts, and probably reflects more accurately the original concept. Tlapalli, in certain compound words, refers to redness, but both Molina and Sahagún make it quite clear that tlapalli is a generic term for colors that are used to paint or to dye. >> Listeros: While the translation of tlilli tlapalli may vary according to each person's understanding and experience, the essential thrust of the above remarks was made over a decade ago to me in correspondence by Arthur J. O. Anderson. Ye ixquich. Barry D. Sell From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Mon Jun 4 14:55:52 2001 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:55:52 GMT Subject: textbooks Message-ID: Please:- What is the current progress on getting the Andrews textbooks reprinted and available? What is the current progress with the online compilation of Molina etc? Citlalya:ni From mdmorris at indiana.edu Mon Jun 4 16:48:16 2001 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 11:48:16 -0500 Subject: Merit correction In-Reply-To: <8a.78b175e.284bf2bd@aol.com> Message-ID: Dear List, I sent in my translation of a letter from Francisco Loysaga to Miguel Aparicio evidence supporting the idea that merit is conceived of as suffering and reciprocal exchange (defined as a system social relations control value more than the object itself). A nagging doubt or error in my first translation tosses that evidence out and leads to an explanation of the somewhat complex solution I made of the statement "with much tlacpactiliztli, neyolaliliztli tlacuapantiliztli next to your wife" where Francisco Loysaga well wishes Miguel Aparicio on the Pascuas. I originally used "salutacin, fraternidad y convivencia;" Luis Reyes, however, reads this as a parallelism sandwich (my term) consisting of two statements derived from words meaning "high" with an affective term for meat, and suggested it compared to the English "all the best and much happiness," or as I put in a revised Spanish translation, "con todo lo mejor y con mucha alegria." This has a lot of sense, and works a lot better than my attempt to translate tlacuapan as being related to a gathering for eating. However, I think there might be more happening in this phrase "tlacpactiliztli neyolaliliztli tlacuapantiliztli" in terms of rhetorical design or impact. I base that argument on the phrase's structural context. I think the more elaborate structural unit represented in this phrase compared to the surrounding more explicit noun and verb statements, opens up some room to consider this tlacpactiliztli as related to the tlacpachuili Loysaga seems to use to say "greet" in three other letters; an example is "ycxitlantzinco yn siuapili Sa, Da. thomasa tohuey Nantzi Moteoyotica Nesetilitzi yhu ticmotlacpachuililia Nochtintzin ynitlachihualchichihuan yn Ds v. Mopilhuantzintzihua Dn. Berna Dn. Mariano, Da. ygnacia, Doloretzi lusiatzi yhu yn ocsequinti; VG." It merits mention that tlacpactiliztli and tlacuapantiliztli are a little rare in any case. As far as I know Nahuatl grammar, Loysaga's formation of tlacuapantilistli and tlacpactiliztli are only possible through the verbalization of the locatives tlacpac (above) and tlacuapan (high place) with the verbalizing suffix -ti, (to become) nominalized by the -liztli suffix, as indeed seems to have happened here, though one would not find many other examples of them I think. Loysaga's expression is probably a regional oral mode that may or may not still be understandable or not to some of the Nahuatl speakers today in Tlaxcala (my experience here is that a lot of the colonial social lexicon got dropped between 1821 and today), but it does not, to my knowledge, appear in published Nahuatl lexicons. Thus, these possibly unregistered verbalized forms of tlacpac Loysaga uses here suggests that tlacpac has some other meaning than its usual literal meaning of "above", and used in the translation by Luis Reyes. This possible local variation (and there are many in Tlaxcala) could indeed, then best be translated as "salutacin;" however, given that it seems to work in a parallelism with tlacuapan; that is questionable. For the reader to weigh the sources, Luis' preponderantly vaster knowledge of Nahuatl is a little offset by my work with this particular writer. I don't in anyway retract my general statements about merit, but I think it's my responsibility to correct my error given that I had presented a faulty translation in support of those statements and given that groups like the Voz de Aztlan have openly expressed interest in using this list as a source of accurate information. Sincerely, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Jun 4 18:17:22 2001 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:17:22 -0400 Subject: Merit correction Message-ID: > tlacpactiliztli, neyolaliliztli tlacuapantiliztli next to your wife" where > Francisco Loysaga well wishes Miguel Aparicio on the Pascuas. I > originally used "salutacin, fraternidad y convivencia;" Luis Reyes, > however, reads this as a parallelism sandwich (my term) consisting of two > statements derived from words meaning "high" with an affective term for > meatŠ Meat? Have I missed something here? I assume that "neyolaliliztli" is derived from the reflexive use of yo:llalia: (< yo:l-tl:alia:) meaning 'to be content, to be happy.' Where's the beef? Fran From Ian.Robertson at asu.edu Mon Jun 4 20:42:41 2001 From: Ian.Robertson at asu.edu (Ian Robertson) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 13:42:41 -0700 Subject: vocabulary learning tool for Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <200106041716.f54HGhp04846@ns1.nantucket.net> Message-ID: Hello, For some time now I have been working on a relational database (in Access) for organizing Nahuatl vocabulary, with the idea of using it as a basis for a computer application that could serve as an electronic dictionary and as a basic learning tool. I did make such an application (and use it frequently), but I don't think it's quite 'user-friendly' enough for public dissemination--at least not yet. I recently became aware of an shareware program called Memler that does much of what I originally had in mind, but is a lot more elegant. To make a long story short, I submitted some of the material that I had already entered into my database to Dmitry Vergel, who wrote Memler. [This includes all of the vocabulary in the first 8 chapters of Volume 2 of Campbell and Karttunen's Foundation course--about 650 Nahuatl-English vocabulary items.] Dmitry has kindly converted this material into a Memler-format, Nahuatl-English word library, which is now available at his website, along with the Memler software: Memler runs in the background of your computer; at set intervals, it springs to life and gives you a short, multiple-choice quiz based on a vocabulary "lesson"--a subset of the words selected from the larger word library. When the quiz is over, the application just retreats to the background. You set the intervals at which the program appears, the number of questions it asks you, and how many times you have to get an item 'right' before it stops appearing in the lesson. I think that the logic behind Memler is that regular, but short, learning sessions are more effective than longer, but less frequent ones. In addition to being a learning tool, there is a dictionary form in Memler that lets you rapidly look up and translate words in the word library--Nahuatl to English, or vice versa. There is an editor for adding new items to a current library. I think that Memler is going to be useful, but there may be some minor problems in using it with the Nahuatl vocabulary list. For example, I used diacritical marks to indicate long vowels; this means that words with long vowels won't sort into what would seem a natural alphabetical order, and this will probably have some effect on the way the "dictionary" feature works. Ditto for my use of bracketed vowels in words like "(i)lcähu(a)". In the meantime, I hope that Memler and the Nahuatl-English vocabulary might prove useful to Nahuatl learners. I will be interested to hear comments from any of you who care to try it out. Best, Ian -------------------- Ian Robertson Dept. of Anthropology Arizona State University Tempe, AZ, 85287-2402 Ian.Robertson at asu.edu From drothering at hotmail.com Mon Jun 4 21:46:22 2001 From: drothering at hotmail.com (Darryl Röthering) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:46:22 -0400 Subject: vocabulary learning tool for Nahuatl Message-ID: This is a godsend! I started monitoring this list about a year ago in the hopes that such a thing would be mentioned or created. I will definitely download that software as soon as I get back from an extended business trip. I was actually on the verge of suggesting that perhaps a "word of the day" entry might be submitted on this list, so that dilletantes could focus on memorizing one word a day in between their busy work schedules. Regards, Darryl James Rothering ----Original Message Follows---- From: Ian Robertson Reply-To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Subject: vocabulary learning tool for Nahuatl Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 13:42:41 -0700 Hello, For some time now I have been working on a relational database (in Access) for organizing Nahuatl vocabulary, with the idea of using it as a basis for a computer application that could serve as an electronic dictionary and as a basic learning tool. I did make such an application (and use it frequently), but I don't think it's quite 'user-friendly' enough for public dissemination--at least not yet. I recently became aware of an shareware program called Memler that does much of what I originally had in mind, but is a lot more elegant. To make a long story short, I submitted some of the material that I had already entered into my database to Dmitry Vergel, who wrote Memler. [This includes all of the vocabulary in the first 8 chapters of Volume 2 of Campbell and Karttunen's Foundation course--about 650 Nahuatl-English vocabulary items.] Dmitry has kindly converted this material into a Memler-format, Nahuatl-English word library, which is now available at his website, along with the Memler software: Memler runs in the background of your computer; at set intervals, it springs to life and gives you a short, multiple-choice quiz based on a vocabulary "lesson"--a subset of the words selected from the larger word library. When the quiz is over, the application just retreats to the background. You set the intervals at which the program appears, the number of questions it asks you, and how many times you have to get an item 'right' before it stops appearing in the lesson. I think that the logic behind Memler is that regular, but short, learning sessions are more effective than longer, but less frequent ones. In addition to being a learning tool, there is a dictionary form in Memler that lets you rapidly look up and translate words in the word library--Nahuatl to English, or vice versa. There is an editor for adding new items to a current library. I think that Memler is going to be useful, but there may be some minor problems in using it with the Nahuatl vocabulary list. For example, I used diacritical marks to indicate long vowels; this means that words with long vowels won't sort into what would seem a natural alphabetical order, and this will probably have some effect on the way the "dictionary" feature works. Ditto for my use of bracketed vowels in words like "(i)lc�hu(a)". In the meantime, I hope that Memler and the Nahuatl-English vocabulary might prove useful to Nahuatl learners. I will be interested to hear comments from any of you who care to try it out. Best, Ian -------------------- Ian Robertson Dept. of Anthropology Arizona State University Tempe, AZ, 85287-2402 Ian.Robertson at asu.edu _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From carlos.trenary at vanderbilt.edu Mon Jun 4 16:53:33 2001 From: carlos.trenary at vanderbilt.edu (Carlos Trenary) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 11:53:33 -0500 Subject: textbooks Message-ID: At 02:55 PM 6/4/2001 +0000, you wrote: >Please:- >What is the current progress on getting the Andrews textbooks reprinted and >available? >What is the current progress with the online compilation of Molina etc? > >Citlalya:ni I spoke with Prof. Andrews a few minutes ago, and he sent the revised manuscript to the publisher 6 months ago. He has not heard from the publisher yet. Carlos Trenary Lab= 615-322-6950 Vanderbilt University Direct= 615-322-7511 Microcomputer Lab pager= 615-951-2246 Box 81 Station B email= carlos.trenary at vanderbilt.edu Room 119 Garland Hall home= 615-298-4764 Nashville TN 37235 Systems Administrator Network Manager John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/provost/ From mdmorris at indiana.edu Tue Jun 5 15:55:39 2001 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 10:55:39 -0500 Subject: Merit correction In-Reply-To: <200106041716.f54HGhp04846@ns1.nantucket.net> Message-ID: The beef is in that heart felt sentiment of contentment called neyolaliztli. peace, Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Thu Jun 7 14:28:44 2001 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 08:28:44 -0600 Subject: Andrews textbook Message-ID: Dear List members, I just received word from the University of Oklahoma Press that the revised _Introduction to Classical Nahuatl_ by J. Richard Andrews is tentatively scheduled to be released in the Fall of 2002. Obviously this is subject to change as productions nears. J. F. Schwaller List owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/provost/ From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Wed Jun 6 16:12:13 2001 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Mr. Tezozomoc) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 16:12:13 -0000 Subject: Friends of Uto-Aztecan Conference, July 8-9, 2001 Message-ID: To all the Nahuatlacah on the nahuat-l list... I encourage you to attend the Santa Barbara conference... I belong to the list and will be presenting.... Tezozomoc. ----Original Message Follows---- From: "John F. Schwaller" Reply-To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Subject: Friends of Uto-Aztecan Conference, July 8-9, 2001 Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:28:39 -0600 PRELIMINARY PROGRAM 2001 Friends of Uto-Aztecan Working Conference / Taller de los Amigos de las Lenguas Yutoaztecas Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History Santa Barbara, CA, July 8-9, 2001 From rude at stanford.edu Sun Jun 10 17:07:44 2001 From: rude at stanford.edu (Rudiger V. Busto) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 10:07:44 -0700 Subject: Announcement of New Nahuatl Textbook Message-ID: Colegas, I just received in my mailbox an announcent from Stanford U. Press for James Lockhart's two volumes: Volume 1: _Carochi's Grammar of the Mexican Language_. From the blurb: "This new edition includes the original Spanish and an English translation on facing pages. The corpus of examples, source of much of our knowledge about vowel quality and glottal stop in Nahuatl, is presented once in its original form, once in a rationalized manner. Copious footnotes provide explanatory commentary and more literal translations of some of Carochi's examples. The volume is at once an indispensable pedagogical tool and the first critical edition of the premier monument of Nahuatl grammatical literature." Listed Price is $65.00 Volume 2: _Nahuatl as Written: Lessons in Older Written Nahuatl, with Copious Examples and Texts_. From the blurb: "Nahuatl as Written presumes no previous knowledge of the language. It is organized on purely pedagogical principles, using an order and techniques developed over many years of practical experience. The book emphasizes active study of the language and contains an abundance of examples that serve as exercises; these examples are also available separately for the student's convenience. The orthography and vocabulary are those found in the older Nahuatl texts, and the last several of the twenty lessons offer practice in working with texts as they were actually written. Some of the lessons deal with syntax in a way not found elsewhere, and develop notions of anticipation and cross-reference that are basic to Nahuatl grammar. To lead the reader further, an appendix includes substantial selections from ten varied texts, and an epilogue surveys much of the existing body of published Nahuatl texts. Listed Price $45.00 Both are scheduled to be released this coming Fall -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rudy V. Busto rude at stanford.edu Assistant Professor 650.723.0465 (office) Religious Studies 650.725.1476 (fax) Stanford University Stanford, CA 94305-2165 "...who knows what the ostrich sees in the sand ? " --- Samuel Beckett From mikegaby at hotmail.com Sat Jun 16 06:53:47 2001 From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 06:53:47 -0000 Subject: "La Ley Azteca" - Re: homosexualidad y lesbianismo Message-ID: Well Said Mario Mike >From: micc >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >Subject: Re: "La Ley Azteca" - Re: homosexualidad y lesbianismo >Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:30:01 -0700 > >The reason I brought this up is the fact that if you "disagree" with >this type of rabid, angry and hateful ideology, therefor you must be >"one of them".... if you are not anti-Semitic and homophobic you must >therefore be "pro Zionist " and part of the "enemies [out to] destroy >our culture" > >A culture of hatred? and intolerance??? > >Please check out OUR website to see a different way of looking at the >world: >www.mexicayotl.org > >thanks! >mario e. aguilar > >La Voz de Aztlan wrote: > > > Dear Moderator of the Nahuat-l List: > > > > Is this a pro-Zionist mailing list? > > Will we be banned? > > > > The "protocols" are published for > > information and discussion only. > > Many of us Mexicans are not familiar > > with them. Is it against the law to > > publish them? > > > > Regardless of all the above, what > > does this have to do with Nahuatl? > > You people are acting worse than Nazis. > > > > La Voz de Aztlan > > > > > > On Wed, 23 May 2001 13:17:09 -0600 > > "John F. Schwaller" wrote: > > > > > Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 09:53:38 -0500 > > > To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu > > > From: Bernard Ortiz de Montellano > > > Subject: Re[2]: "La Ley Azteca" - Re: homosexualidad y lesbianismo > > > > > > This is not quite the whole story. Please check the urls cited > > > http://www.aztlan.net/leyazteca.htm > > > http://www.aztlan.net/drinko.htm > > > Publishing the notorious antisemitic *Protocols of the Elders of > > > Zion" as well as several antisemitic articles clearly shows the > > > nature of this publication > > > > > > >Dear Nahuat-l List Members: > > > > > > > >We were offended by an individual on this > > > >list who identified him or herself as > > > >micc . Name calling and > > > >labeling of users of the list is > > > >unprofessional. We have been subscribers > > > >for a long time but have never posted. > > > >We have been contented in just reading > > > >the comments and learning a little > > > >Nahuatl along the way. La Voz de Aztlan > > > >is a bilingual news service and our > > > >subscribers are mostly Mexicans in the > > > >southwest U.S. and in Mexico. This > > > >person has insulted us. We are not > > > >insulting anyone here. This type of > > > >abuse should not be permitted in an > > > >academic oriented discussion group > > > >such as this one. We hope that the > > > >majority of the group does not support > > > >this person and allow us equal access > > > >to the discussion here on the Aztec > > > >Culture and language. > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From cristi at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 22 19:30:50 2001 From: cristi at ix.netcom.com (cristi at ix.netcom.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:30:50 -0600 Subject: Tlilli tlapalli In-Reply-To: <001201c0e9ea$6eecb6c0$70bee994@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: I remember there was some discussion about this question, and some very good points made. I was just reading Leon-Portilla's "Aztec Thought and Culture," and learning about Garabay's (sp?) idea of defrasismos--two words that, when combined, mean quite something else. This apparently was a strong feature of Nahuatl. (I ask those well-informed scholars among us to excuse my naive remarks here...) According to Garabay, "the black ink, the red ink" clearly meant "wisdom." Leon-Portilla sets out numerous examples of speeches that contain this phrase, and its meaning seems quite consistent. If the speaker wishes to include actual writing media, he always seems to add that later. The same principle applies to "precious flower, precious gem," which means "beautiful." I am even privately wondering if "a face, a heart" means "a good character." A big conjecture (leap of fantasy?): black and red are easily the best colors for making ink drawings/letters. In the European culture one sees the same thing. And Chinese. Other colors are unreliable--fade, change, or otherwise deteriorate. I am imagining that the early writers (Tolteca, perhaps?) used predominately this red and black ink. Later Mexica, who equated Toltec with supreme knowledge and art, may have come to refer to Toltec and/or Culhua manuscripts in this way--or perhaps there were other colors which simply faded away. Meanwhile, as their arts developed, they came up with workable paints of other bright and permanent colors (which persist to this day, although some have changed their hue). Of course, it is only a guess. We will never know, will we--since the most valuable texts of all went up in flames. Cristi > Does anyone have any idea what could have been the reason Dibble and = > Anderson (Florentine Codex VI: 259) translated the metaphor "Intlil = > intlapal" as "their black, their red" rather than "their black, their > = colors"? The translation of "tlapalli" as "red" keeps cropping up in > = modern sources. I can't remember where all I've seen it; another > example = is in Garibay's vocabulary, in the Porrua edition of the > Castillian text = of the Florentine Codex; "Tlapallan" is translated > as "Lugar del rojo". = Molina (I, 27r; II 130v) makes it clear that > "tlapalli" and the radical = "tlapal-" refer to pigments for painting > or dying in general, regardless = of hue; the same is true of Sahagun > (Florentine Codex XI: 245). Why red? = The only possible explanation I > can come up with is that "colorado, -a" = in old Castillian was used > for red, and retains this meaning today, = especially in informal > speech; this could have led to imprecise = translations. > > Comments regarding the deeper meanings of this metaphor, or possible = > modern survivals, would also be greatly appreciated. > > Best regards, > > David Wright > > ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0E9B7.92C45040 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > > >
Does anyone have any idea what could > = have been the=20 reason Dibble and Anderson (Florentine Codex VI: > 259) translated the = metaphor=20 "Intlil intlapal" as "their black, > their red" rather than "their black, = their=20 colors"? The > translation of "tlapalli" as "red" keeps cropping up in = modern=20 > sources. I can't remember where all I've seen it; another example is > in=20 Garibay's vocabulary, in the Porrua edition of the Castillian > text of = the=20 Florentine Codex; "Tlapallan" is translated as "Lugar > del rojo". Molina = (I, 27r;=20 II 130v) makes it clear that > "tlapalli" and the radical "tlapal-" refer = to=20 pigments for > painting or dying in general, regardless of hue; the same = is true=20 > of Sahagun (Florentine Codex XI: 245). Why red? The only > possible=20 explanation I can come up with is that "colorado, -a" in > old Castillian = was used=20 for red, and retains this meaning today, > especially in informal speech; = this=20 could have led to imprecise > translations.
 
size=3D3>Comments regarding the deeper meanings = of this=20 metaphor, > or possible modern survivals, would also be greatly=20 > appreciated.
 
face=3DArial>Best regards,
 
face=3DArial>David Wright
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0E9B7.92C45040-- > From curt at rosengren.net Sun Jun 24 12:59:53 2001 From: curt at rosengren.net (Curt Rosengren) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 05:59:53 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl word for center point of the "compass" Message-ID: >From what I understand, the Aztecs defined center as cardinal point in addition to north, south, east, west. I'm fascinated with that concept, and am trying to figure out what the Nahuatl word for that "direction" is. Can anyone help? Thanks! - curt rosengren From CHMuths at aol.com Sun Jun 24 15:18:18 2001 From: CHMuths at aol.com (CHMuths at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 11:18:18 EDT Subject: Nahuatl word for center point of the "compass" Message-ID: The central point is symbolised by the Nahuatl god Xipe Topec and the month correlating with it is March. Also this cardinal point is linked to the solar plexus and therefore links mankind to the cosmos. But I cannot help with the name of the cardinal point. Christa Muths From mdmorris at indiana.edu Sun Jun 24 15:43:49 2001 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 10:43:49 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl word for center point of the "compass" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Carl et. al, I believe the center is considered the umblical, xictli. I know the Annales del Museo Nacional c.a. 1920 at least published material on this; Lopez Austin's work on the human body probably also touches on it in his discussion of the tonalli. Sorry, I couldn't be more precise. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From malinal at evhr.net Thu Jun 21 03:33:20 2001 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 05:33:20 +0200 Subject: Nahuatl word for center point of the "compass" Message-ID: I believe the center as cardinal point was named *tlalxicco*, in the umblical of the earth. This was where the fire burns. *tlalxictenticah*, ‘he fills the umbilical of the earthÂ’, was one of the names of the fire or fire god. Incense was offered towards the fire as well to the four cardinal directions. I donÂ’t know if an other name of the domestical fire: *nauhyoteuctli*, the lord of the Four (directions??) was related with the four cardinal points. But the ideological connexions of the center were many. Best regards. Alexis Wimmer. http://nahuatl.ifrance.com -----Message d'origine----- De : Mark David Morris À : nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Date : dimanche 24 juin 2001 17:02 Objet : Re: Nahuatl word for center point of the "compass" >Carl et. al, > >I believe the center is considered the umblical, xictli. I know the >Annales del Museo Nacional c.a. 1920 at least published material on this; >Lopez Austin's work on the human body probably also touches on it in his >discussion of the tonalli. Sorry, I couldn't be more precise. > >Mark Morris > From owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Wed Jun 27 19:12:18 2001 From: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu (owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:12:18 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Dear List members, Sender: owner-nahuat-l at majordomo.umt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nahuat-l at majordomo.umt.edu Nahuat-l is moving to a new server. As some of you may know, on July 1, 2001, I will become trhe Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean of the University of Minnesota, Morris. As a result, Nahuat-l will no longer be administered from Montana, but will move to a server in Minnesota. There is nothing that you need to do. The switch over will be automatic. But here are a few reminders: The new list address will be: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu The new address for subscribe, unsubscribe, and other list serve commands: majordomo at mrs.umn.edu To subscribe to nahuat-l, send an email message to: majordomo at mrs.umn.edu containing the message text: subscribe nahuat-l To unsubscribe, send an email message (from the subscribed account) to: majordomo at mrs.umn.edu containing the message text: unsubscribe nahuat-l J. F. Schwaller List owner John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean (effective 7/1/2001) 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E. 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 Phone: 320-589-6015 FAX: 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Jun 1 03:05:12 2001 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 22:05:12 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Question In-Reply-To: <200105311845.f4VIjD308412@ns1.nantucket.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 May 2001, Frances Karttunen wrote: > > The other "tlael-" with negative connotations is actually tlahyel-. > Tlahyelli means something dirty, foul. > In the following examples of "tlahyel-", culled from the Florentine Codex, I spelled the morpheme in question as "tlahe:l(-li)" as Andrews spells it, but I don't dis-agree with Fran's spelling -- and I think that hers is the more likely one (the sequence /hC/ is not uncommon in Nahuatl, but intervocalic /h/ occurs normally only in the case of reduplication). One interesting point in the extended semantics of "tlahyelli" is that, while it primarily refers to 'dirty, foul, disgusting, hateful, etc.', it also is used adverbially to mean 'exceedingly', parallel to English 'filthy drunk' (having nothing to do with literal dirt) and 'filthy rich'. In some modern dialects "pitzotl" [pig] is used in the same way: "nicpitzonequi" 'I *really* want it' (San Miguel Canoa, Puebla). And I *seem* to remember (but I'm very unsure) that it's possible to say "nimitzpitzotlazohtla" 'I love you *a lot*' without any lewd connotations. For the sake of giving a tlapehualli that shows the semantic work of 'tlahyelli', I include the list below. Note that in some cases there is no English gloss... yet... *yet*... *YET*... Best regards, Joe tlahe:lli*** cuauhtlaelli. . . cuauhtlailli. . . eztlaelli. bloody flux. . eztlahelli. bloody flux. . eztlahilli. bloody flux. . huellaelittaloni. . . huellaelittaloni. something which is worthy of abomination. . tetlaelli. . . tetlaelti. . . tetlayelli. . . tlaelatl. dirty water. . tlaelchihua , mo-. it is produced in abundance; they are produced in abundance. . tlaelihuintic. filthily drunk. . tlaelitta , mitz-. she detests you, she hates you. . tlaelitta , qui-. he hates it. . tlaelittaloni. abhorrent. . tlaelittaloz. he will be abominated, he will regarded with hate; it will be abhorred. . tlaelittili , otiquimmo-. you [H.] abominated them. . tlaelittilia , quimo-. he [H.] abhors him. . tlaelitto. he is hated; he is detested; it is abhorred. . tlaelittoni. destestable. . tlaelittoz. he will be hated. . tlaelitztihui , qui-. they go regarding it as revolting; they go hating it. . tlaellatol , i-. her vile words. . tlaellaza , mo-. she scatters hatred. . tlaelli. bloody flux; filth; excrement; flux. . tlaellitalozque. they will be hated. . tlaelmaca , quimo-. he overindulges himself in it. . tlaelnappa. . . tlaelnemi. . . tlaelnequi , qui-. he needs it immoderately. . tlaelpaquiznequi. it provokes lewdness. . tlaelpatli. medicine for diarrhea, for the flux. . tlaelquiahuiz. it will rain hard. . tlaelquiyahuitl. hard rain, downpour. . tlaeltetl. common stone. . tlaeltextli. poorly ground flour. . tlaeltezcatl. ugly mirror. . tlaelti , quin-. it nauseated them. . tlaelti , te-. ; it sickened one. . tlaeltia , mo-. he becomes nauseated; he has nausea. . tlaeltia , qui-. it nauseates him, it disgusts him. . tlaeltiani , mo-. one that is nauseated. . tlaeltique , mo-. they were nauseated. . tlahelchichipol. . . tlahelcihuatl. detestable woman. . tlahelconepol. disgusting child. . tlahelcuani. . . tlahelhuehue. vile old person. . tlahellaquetza. he tells indecent stories. . tlahellatoa. he speaks lewdly. . tlahellaza , mo-. he scatters hatred. . tlahellazani , mo-. one who scatters hatred. . tlahelli. filth; flux. . tlahello. filth; revolting; filthy. . tlahelmayahui , mo-. . . tlahelmayahuini , mo-. one who spreads hatred. . tlahelnelo , mo-. he dirtied himself. . tlahelneloa , timo-. you defile yourself. . tlaheloa , mo-. she is hateful. . tlahelpilli. revolting noble. . tlahelpol. ; revolting person; revolting. . tlahelti , te-. . . tlaheltia , te-. he causes disgust. . tlahilli. flux. . tlahiloquichtli. rabid warrior. . tlailitta , te-. he despises people; she looks at people with anger. . tlaillaza , mo-. they shed filth. . tlailli. bloody flux; filth; flux; excrement. . tlailmayahui , mo-. they scatter filth. . tlailtetl. common stone. . tlayelli. flux. . tlayeltetl. ; common stone; . . From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Fri Jun 1 08:04:32 2001 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:04:32 GMT Subject: Tlilli tlapalli In-Reply-To: <001201c0e9ea$6eecb6c0$70bee994@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: David Wright wrote:- > Does anyone have any idea what could have been the reason Dibble and > Anderson (Florentine Codex VI: 259) translated the metaphor "Intlil > intlapal" as "their black, their red" rather than "their black, their > colors"? The translation of "tlapalli" as "red" keeps cropping up ... Similar happens in Russian: [krasnyy] = "red", [perkrasnyy] = "beautiful", as if in the times before modern chemical industrial dyes came, red was the most readily available bright decorative color. Citlalya:ni From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Jun 1 11:05:31 2001 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 07:05:31 -0400 Subject: Nahuatl Question Message-ID: > > In the following examples of "tlahyel-", culled from the Florentine > Codex, I spelled the morpheme in question as "tlahe:l(-li)" as Andrews > spells i. Notice also that I didn't mark the vowel of the second syllable long. The reason I didn't make the vowel long in the canonical form in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl is that the vowel is not attested as long in the Bancroft manuscript, and Tetelcingo Nahuatl seems to have the reflex of a short vowel. On the other hand, I am pretty sure that tlahyelli is derived from the verb ihya:ya 'to stink' which has a long vowel (albeit a different vowel) in that syllable. An attestation from Zacapoaxtla actually has a: rather than e in the derived noun. Many thanks to Joe for all these attested uses from the Florentine Codex. It's always a pleasure and a learning experience to receive his examples. Tlazohca:mati huel miac! Fran From mdmorris at indiana.edu Fri Jun 1 15:31:21 2001 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 10:31:21 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Question In-Reply-To: <200106011004.f51A4p320364@ns1.nantucket.net> Message-ID: Fran and Joe, A mil, millon de la setenta gracias to both of you, realmente aprendi demasiado and my otherwise gray morning has a little bit more for thinking. thanks, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From notoca at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 13:47:11 2001 From: notoca at hotmail.com (Chichiltic Coyotl) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 21:47:11 +0800 Subject: Tlilli tlapalli Message-ID: Hi Could it be because tlapalli is a metaphorical reference to blood? EZR >From: David Wright > >Does anyone have any idea what could have been the reason Dibble and >Anderson (Florentine Codex VI: 259) translated the metaphor "Intlil >intlapal" as "their black, their red" rather than "their black, their >colors"? The translation of "tlapalli" as "red" keeps cropping up in _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Jun 3 00:17:11 2001 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:17:11 -0600 Subject: Tlilli tlapalli Message-ID: I've been digging around, and I'm more and more convinced that the traditional (20th century) translation of tlilli tlapalli as "the black, the red", in reference to codices, writing, wisdom and tradition, is imprecise, and that "the black, the colors" gives a much better idea of the appearance and technique of pre-Hispanic and early colonial central Mexican pictorial texts, and probably reflects more accurately the original concept. Tlapalli, in certain compound words, refers to redness, but both Molina and Sahag?n make it quite clear that tlapalli is a generic term for colors that are used to paint or to dye. Important 20th century nahuatlatos like Sullivan, Dibble and Anderson have translated tlilli tlapalli (or the phrase intlil intlapal from the Florentine Codex) as "the black, the red". My first posting on this subject asked why this is so, since it seems to contradict the basic meaning of tlapalli and the fact that red doesn't have an obviously predominant role in central Mexican codices. Before going with my first impulse and dismissing the concept of "red and black" as a firmly entrenched error, I was looking for evidence to support it. I haven't found any, but I did find a footnote in an article by Seler (Abhandlungen: II-3-13, 717-66; Labyrinthos English edition: III, 113, note 11) that could be what started the whole thing, back in 1904: "Tlilli tlapalli, the black and red color, is therefore the painting, the writing. And Tlillan tlapallan, "land of black and red color,", is accordingly the land of writing. The words 'black and red color' characterize very well the appearance of the picture writings, the Maya manuscripts in particular [oops, wrong region and language -DW]. [...] It is of advantage to call attention to this, in view of the fantastic and arbitrary explanations of another kind which have been attempted in both earlier and recent years." Are there any objections to throwing out "the black, the red" and using the more precise metaphorical phrase "the black, the colors"? - David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Jun 3 02:01:46 2001 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 20:01:46 -0600 Subject: Tlilli tlapalli Message-ID: >Are there any objections to throwing out "the black, the red" and using the more precise metaphorical phrase "the black, the colors"? I object to the use of "the black, the colors"; while more precise than "the black, the red", the former phrase is less precise than Karttunen's suggestion last Thursday: "the black ink, the colored paint". L?pez Austin and Garc?a Quintana, in the glossary at the back of their paleographic version of the Castillian text of the Florentine Codex, hit on the same solution for translating "Intlil, intlapal in huehuetque": "Su tinta, su pintura de los viejos". (Don't worry about me, I often talk to myself when I get wrapped up in a problem.) (:o ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From campbel at indiana.edu Sun Jun 3 05:34:13 2001 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 00:34:13 -0500 Subject: A Stinking Nahuatl Question In-Reply-To: <200106011004.f51A4p320364@ns1.nantucket.net> Message-ID: Don't blame me >8-) for bringing "stink" to the list -- I'm glad Fran brought it up. It's a morpheme whose occurrence in words in naturally spelled text causes problems in recognition. 'ihya:ya' frequently is written without the glottal stop, but 'iyaya' is still easy enough to recognize. Then the tendency to drop 'y' after 'i' in the spelling gives us 'iaya' and the difficulty increases. But the opacity *really* grows when the morphological process of deleting '-ya' on verb stems in certain derivations can actually leave only the string 'ia' intact. Below are some collected examples. Although it might go without saying, I would always appreciate comments that would lead to more analyses. Just in case someone might read over "fishseller" without a chuckle, note that it means "one who sells something stinking". Best regards, Joe On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Frances Karttunen wrote: > On the other hand, I am pretty sure that tlahyelli is derived from the verb > ihya:ya 'to stink' which has a long vowel (albeit a different vowel) in that > syllable. An attestation from Zacapoaxtla actually has a: rather than e in > the derived noun. ihya:ya*** [i]xcaliyac , tla-. stinking tortilla. . aiyac. odorless. . camaxoquiaca , in-. the bad odor of their mouths. . cuitlahyac. stinking like excrement. . cuitlayac. ; smelling of excrement. . hiyac. stinking. . ihyac. ; aromatic; evil-smelling; having a foul odor; scented; stinking; foul smelling; having a bad smell. . ihyaca. its scent; its smell. . ihyalpatic. extremely foul smelling. . ihyatatl. evil-smelling thing. . ihyaxtihui. they go stinking. . ihyaya. it has an aroma; it produces an aroma; it produces a pleasing aroma; it spreads an aroma; it stinks; they stink. . iiaxtimani , tla-. it keeps stinking. . iyac. ; stinking. . iyaca. . . iyaca , m[o]-. your stench, your evil odor; your evil atmosphere. . iyaca , t[o]-. our stench. . iyaca. his stench; its aroma; its odor; its scent; stench; bad smell. . iyax. it stank. . iyaya , on-. it spreads its fragrance. . iyaya. it has an aroma, it smells; it stinks. . iyayaliz. its odor; its stench. . miquiciyac. smelling of death. . miquiciyaltic. smelling much of death. . miquizhiyaltic. deathly stench. . miquizihyaya. it stinks of death. . tamaliyac. stinking tamale. . tamaliyacatzintli. stinking tamale. . tlaliyac. ; copperas; evil-smelling; stinking; fetid; sulphate of copper. . tzopelicaiyaya. it is stinking sweet. . tzoyac. it is fetid. . tzoyaya. it emits a fetid odor; it smells foul; it stinks. . xoquiac. fetid, stinking; foul-smelling; of fetid smell; smelly; spoiled. . xoquialtic. . . xoquiaya. . . xoquiyac. stinking, foul odor; spoiled. . xoquiyacacohuia , mo-. they buy stinking things. . xoquiyacanamacac. fish seller. . xoquiyaltic. stinking, smelly. . From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Jun 3 19:17:22 2001 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 13:17:22 -0600 Subject: Tlilli tlapalli: weighing the evidence Message-ID: Following an off-list tip from Mark David Morris and a reference in Boone's Stories in Red and Black, I saw that the tlacuilos depicted in Codex Mendoza (70r), Codex Vienna (48b) and Codex Telleriano-Remensis (30r) are shown painting, effectively, with red and black paint. These examples would tend to support the "red and black" translation of "tlilli tlapalli." The Nahuatl metaphor "tlilli tlapalli nictlalia", translated by Molina (II, 147v) as "dar buen ejemplo", was expressed in classical Otomi with the juxtaposition of the word for drawing plus the generic term for color. The interlinguistic use of metaphors in the multilinguistic communities of central Mexico is not unusual; a similar example is the metaphorical concept altepetl, which has a literal equivalent in Otomi. (Sorry, the need for abundant diacritics precludes giving the Otomi examples by e-mail; both can be found in Urbano's trilingual --Castillian / Nahuatl / Otomi-- dictionary, under "Dar buen exemplo" and "Pueblo de todos juntamente". The Otomi equivalent of altepetl is found in alphabetically written colonial Otomi manuscripts, not just in Urbano's lexicon; I haven't yet checked the mss. for the Otomi equivalent of "tlilli tlapalli".) This would tend to support the "ink and paint" translation of "tlilli tlapalli". At this point the balance seems inclined in favor of "ink and paint", especially considering Molina's and Sahagun's translations of "tlapalli" as pigments in general. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Amapohuani at aol.com Sun Jun 3 20:06:21 2001 From: Amapohuani at aol.com (Amapohuani at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 16:06:21 EDT Subject: Tlilli tlapalli Message-ID: In a message dated 6/2/01 4:26:13 PM, dcwright at prodigy.net.mx writes: << I've been digging around, and I'm more and more convinced that the traditional (20th century) translation of tlilli tlapalli as "the black, the red", in reference to codices, writing, wisdom and tradition, is imprecise, and that "the black, the colors" gives a much better idea of the appearance and technique of pre-Hispanic and early colonial central Mexican pictorial texts, and probably reflects more accurately the original concept. Tlapalli, in certain compound words, refers to redness, but both Molina and Sahag?n make it quite clear that tlapalli is a generic term for colors that are used to paint or to dye. >> Listeros: While the translation of tlilli tlapalli may vary according to each person's understanding and experience, the essential thrust of the above remarks was made over a decade ago to me in correspondence by Arthur J. O. Anderson. Ye ixquich. Barry D. Sell From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Mon Jun 4 14:55:52 2001 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:55:52 GMT Subject: textbooks Message-ID: Please:- What is the current progress on getting the Andrews textbooks reprinted and available? What is the current progress with the online compilation of Molina etc? Citlalya:ni From mdmorris at indiana.edu Mon Jun 4 16:48:16 2001 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 11:48:16 -0500 Subject: Merit correction In-Reply-To: <8a.78b175e.284bf2bd@aol.com> Message-ID: Dear List, I sent in my translation of a letter from Francisco Loysaga to Miguel Aparicio evidence supporting the idea that merit is conceived of as suffering and reciprocal exchange (defined as a system social relations control value more than the object itself). A nagging doubt or error in my first translation tosses that evidence out and leads to an explanation of the somewhat complex solution I made of the statement "with much tlacpactiliztli, neyolaliliztli tlacuapantiliztli next to your wife" where Francisco Loysaga well wishes Miguel Aparicio on the Pascuas. I originally used "salutacin, fraternidad y convivencia;" Luis Reyes, however, reads this as a parallelism sandwich (my term) consisting of two statements derived from words meaning "high" with an affective term for meat, and suggested it compared to the English "all the best and much happiness," or as I put in a revised Spanish translation, "con todo lo mejor y con mucha alegria." This has a lot of sense, and works a lot better than my attempt to translate tlacuapan as being related to a gathering for eating. However, I think there might be more happening in this phrase "tlacpactiliztli neyolaliliztli tlacuapantiliztli" in terms of rhetorical design or impact. I base that argument on the phrase's structural context. I think the more elaborate structural unit represented in this phrase compared to the surrounding more explicit noun and verb statements, opens up some room to consider this tlacpactiliztli as related to the tlacpachuili Loysaga seems to use to say "greet" in three other letters; an example is "ycxitlantzinco yn siuapili Sa, Da. thomasa tohuey Nantzi Moteoyotica Nesetilitzi yhu ticmotlacpachuililia Nochtintzin ynitlachihualchichihuan yn Ds v. Mopilhuantzintzihua Dn. Berna Dn. Mariano, Da. ygnacia, Doloretzi lusiatzi yhu yn ocsequinti; VG." It merits mention that tlacpactiliztli and tlacuapantiliztli are a little rare in any case. As far as I know Nahuatl grammar, Loysaga's formation of tlacuapantilistli and tlacpactiliztli are only possible through the verbalization of the locatives tlacpac (above) and tlacuapan (high place) with the verbalizing suffix -ti, (to become) nominalized by the -liztli suffix, as indeed seems to have happened here, though one would not find many other examples of them I think. Loysaga's expression is probably a regional oral mode that may or may not still be understandable or not to some of the Nahuatl speakers today in Tlaxcala (my experience here is that a lot of the colonial social lexicon got dropped between 1821 and today), but it does not, to my knowledge, appear in published Nahuatl lexicons. Thus, these possibly unregistered verbalized forms of tlacpac Loysaga uses here suggests that tlacpac has some other meaning than its usual literal meaning of "above", and used in the translation by Luis Reyes. This possible local variation (and there are many in Tlaxcala) could indeed, then best be translated as "salutacin;" however, given that it seems to work in a parallelism with tlacuapan; that is questionable. For the reader to weigh the sources, Luis' preponderantly vaster knowledge of Nahuatl is a little offset by my work with this particular writer. I don't in anyway retract my general statements about merit, but I think it's my responsibility to correct my error given that I had presented a faulty translation in support of those statements and given that groups like the Voz de Aztlan have openly expressed interest in using this list as a source of accurate information. Sincerely, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Jun 4 18:17:22 2001 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:17:22 -0400 Subject: Merit correction Message-ID: > tlacpactiliztli, neyolaliliztli tlacuapantiliztli next to your wife" where > Francisco Loysaga well wishes Miguel Aparicio on the Pascuas. I > originally used "salutacin, fraternidad y convivencia;" Luis Reyes, > however, reads this as a parallelism sandwich (my term) consisting of two > statements derived from words meaning "high" with an affective term for > meat? Meat? Have I missed something here? I assume that "neyolaliliztli" is derived from the reflexive use of yo:llalia: (< yo:l-tl:alia:) meaning 'to be content, to be happy.' Where's the beef? Fran From Ian.Robertson at asu.edu Mon Jun 4 20:42:41 2001 From: Ian.Robertson at asu.edu (Ian Robertson) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 13:42:41 -0700 Subject: vocabulary learning tool for Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <200106041716.f54HGhp04846@ns1.nantucket.net> Message-ID: Hello, For some time now I have been working on a relational database (in Access) for organizing Nahuatl vocabulary, with the idea of using it as a basis for a computer application that could serve as an electronic dictionary and as a basic learning tool. I did make such an application (and use it frequently), but I don't think it's quite 'user-friendly' enough for public dissemination--at least not yet. I recently became aware of an shareware program called Memler that does much of what I originally had in mind, but is a lot more elegant. To make a long story short, I submitted some of the material that I had already entered into my database to Dmitry Vergel, who wrote Memler. [This includes all of the vocabulary in the first 8 chapters of Volume 2 of Campbell and Karttunen's Foundation course--about 650 Nahuatl-English vocabulary items.] Dmitry has kindly converted this material into a Memler-format, Nahuatl-English word library, which is now available at his website, along with the Memler software: Memler runs in the background of your computer; at set intervals, it springs to life and gives you a short, multiple-choice quiz based on a vocabulary "lesson"--a subset of the words selected from the larger word library. When the quiz is over, the application just retreats to the background. You set the intervals at which the program appears, the number of questions it asks you, and how many times you have to get an item 'right' before it stops appearing in the lesson. I think that the logic behind Memler is that regular, but short, learning sessions are more effective than longer, but less frequent ones. In addition to being a learning tool, there is a dictionary form in Memler that lets you rapidly look up and translate words in the word library--Nahuatl to English, or vice versa. There is an editor for adding new items to a current library. I think that Memler is going to be useful, but there may be some minor problems in using it with the Nahuatl vocabulary list. For example, I used diacritical marks to indicate long vowels; this means that words with long vowels won't sort into what would seem a natural alphabetical order, and this will probably have some effect on the way the "dictionary" feature works. Ditto for my use of bracketed vowels in words like "(i)lc?hu(a)". In the meantime, I hope that Memler and the Nahuatl-English vocabulary might prove useful to Nahuatl learners. I will be interested to hear comments from any of you who care to try it out. Best, Ian -------------------- Ian Robertson Dept. of Anthropology Arizona State University Tempe, AZ, 85287-2402 Ian.Robertson at asu.edu From drothering at hotmail.com Mon Jun 4 21:46:22 2001 From: drothering at hotmail.com (Darryl Röthering) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:46:22 -0400 Subject: vocabulary learning tool for Nahuatl Message-ID: This is a godsend! I started monitoring this list about a year ago in the hopes that such a thing would be mentioned or created. I will definitely download that software as soon as I get back from an extended business trip. I was actually on the verge of suggesting that perhaps a "word of the day" entry might be submitted on this list, so that dilletantes could focus on memorizing one word a day in between their busy work schedules. Regards, Darryl James Rothering ----Original Message Follows---- From: Ian Robertson Reply-To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Subject: vocabulary learning tool for Nahuatl Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 13:42:41 -0700 Hello, For some time now I have been working on a relational database (in Access) for organizing Nahuatl vocabulary, with the idea of using it as a basis for a computer application that could serve as an electronic dictionary and as a basic learning tool. I did make such an application (and use it frequently), but I don't think it's quite 'user-friendly' enough for public dissemination--at least not yet. I recently became aware of an shareware program called Memler that does much of what I originally had in mind, but is a lot more elegant. To make a long story short, I submitted some of the material that I had already entered into my database to Dmitry Vergel, who wrote Memler. [This includes all of the vocabulary in the first 8 chapters of Volume 2 of Campbell and Karttunen's Foundation course--about 650 Nahuatl-English vocabulary items.] Dmitry has kindly converted this material into a Memler-format, Nahuatl-English word library, which is now available at his website, along with the Memler software: Memler runs in the background of your computer; at set intervals, it springs to life and gives you a short, multiple-choice quiz based on a vocabulary "lesson"--a subset of the words selected from the larger word library. When the quiz is over, the application just retreats to the background. You set the intervals at which the program appears, the number of questions it asks you, and how many times you have to get an item 'right' before it stops appearing in the lesson. I think that the logic behind Memler is that regular, but short, learning sessions are more effective than longer, but less frequent ones. In addition to being a learning tool, there is a dictionary form in Memler that lets you rapidly look up and translate words in the word library--Nahuatl to English, or vice versa. There is an editor for adding new items to a current library. I think that Memler is going to be useful, but there may be some minor problems in using it with the Nahuatl vocabulary list. For example, I used diacritical marks to indicate long vowels; this means that words with long vowels won't sort into what would seem a natural alphabetical order, and this will probably have some effect on the way the "dictionary" feature works. Ditto for my use of bracketed vowels in words like "(i)lc?hu(a)". In the meantime, I hope that Memler and the Nahuatl-English vocabulary might prove useful to Nahuatl learners. I will be interested to hear comments from any of you who care to try it out. Best, Ian -------------------- Ian Robertson Dept. of Anthropology Arizona State University Tempe, AZ, 85287-2402 Ian.Robertson at asu.edu _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From carlos.trenary at vanderbilt.edu Mon Jun 4 16:53:33 2001 From: carlos.trenary at vanderbilt.edu (Carlos Trenary) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 11:53:33 -0500 Subject: textbooks Message-ID: At 02:55 PM 6/4/2001 +0000, you wrote: >Please:- >What is the current progress on getting the Andrews textbooks reprinted and >available? >What is the current progress with the online compilation of Molina etc? > >Citlalya:ni I spoke with Prof. Andrews a few minutes ago, and he sent the revised manuscript to the publisher 6 months ago. He has not heard from the publisher yet. Carlos Trenary Lab= 615-322-6950 Vanderbilt University Direct= 615-322-7511 Microcomputer Lab pager= 615-951-2246 Box 81 Station B email= carlos.trenary at vanderbilt.edu Room 119 Garland Hall home= 615-298-4764 Nashville TN 37235 Systems Administrator Network Manager John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/provost/ From mdmorris at indiana.edu Tue Jun 5 15:55:39 2001 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 10:55:39 -0500 Subject: Merit correction In-Reply-To: <200106041716.f54HGhp04846@ns1.nantucket.net> Message-ID: The beef is in that heart felt sentiment of contentment called neyolaliztli. peace, Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From schwallr at selway.umt.edu Thu Jun 7 14:28:44 2001 From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 08:28:44 -0600 Subject: Andrews textbook Message-ID: Dear List members, I just received word from the University of Oklahoma Press that the revised _Introduction to Classical Nahuatl_ by J. Richard Andrews is tentatively scheduled to be released in the Fall of 2002. Obviously this is subject to change as productions nears. J. F. Schwaller List owner John Frederick Schwaller schwallr at selway.umt.edu Associate Provost 406-243-4722 The University of Montana FAX 406-243-5937 http://www.umt.edu/provost/ From tezozomoc at hotmail.com Wed Jun 6 16:12:13 2001 From: tezozomoc at hotmail.com (Mr. Tezozomoc) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 16:12:13 -0000 Subject: Friends of Uto-Aztecan Conference, July 8-9, 2001 Message-ID: To all the Nahuatlacah on the nahuat-l list... I encourage you to attend the Santa Barbara conference... I belong to the list and will be presenting.... Tezozomoc. ----Original Message Follows---- From: "John F. Schwaller" Reply-To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Subject: Friends of Uto-Aztecan Conference, July 8-9, 2001 Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:28:39 -0600 PRELIMINARY PROGRAM 2001 Friends of Uto-Aztecan Working Conference / Taller de los Amigos de las Lenguas Yutoaztecas Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History Santa Barbara, CA, July 8-9, 2001 From rude at stanford.edu Sun Jun 10 17:07:44 2001 From: rude at stanford.edu (Rudiger V. Busto) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 10:07:44 -0700 Subject: Announcement of New Nahuatl Textbook Message-ID: Colegas, I just received in my mailbox an announcent from Stanford U. Press for James Lockhart's two volumes: Volume 1: _Carochi's Grammar of the Mexican Language_. From the blurb: "This new edition includes the original Spanish and an English translation on facing pages. The corpus of examples, source of much of our knowledge about vowel quality and glottal stop in Nahuatl, is presented once in its original form, once in a rationalized manner. Copious footnotes provide explanatory commentary and more literal translations of some of Carochi's examples. The volume is at once an indispensable pedagogical tool and the first critical edition of the premier monument of Nahuatl grammatical literature." Listed Price is $65.00 Volume 2: _Nahuatl as Written: Lessons in Older Written Nahuatl, with Copious Examples and Texts_. From the blurb: "Nahuatl as Written presumes no previous knowledge of the language. It is organized on purely pedagogical principles, using an order and techniques developed over many years of practical experience. The book emphasizes active study of the language and contains an abundance of examples that serve as exercises; these examples are also available separately for the student's convenience. The orthography and vocabulary are those found in the older Nahuatl texts, and the last several of the twenty lessons offer practice in working with texts as they were actually written. Some of the lessons deal with syntax in a way not found elsewhere, and develop notions of anticipation and cross-reference that are basic to Nahuatl grammar. To lead the reader further, an appendix includes substantial selections from ten varied texts, and an epilogue surveys much of the existing body of published Nahuatl texts. Listed Price $45.00 Both are scheduled to be released this coming Fall -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rudy V. Busto rude at stanford.edu Assistant Professor 650.723.0465 (office) Religious Studies 650.725.1476 (fax) Stanford University Stanford, CA 94305-2165 "...who knows what the ostrich sees in the sand ? " --- Samuel Beckett From mikegaby at hotmail.com Sat Jun 16 06:53:47 2001 From: mikegaby at hotmail.com (mike gaby) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 06:53:47 -0000 Subject: "La Ley Azteca" - Re: homosexualidad y lesbianismo Message-ID: Well Said Mario Mike >From: micc >Reply-To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu >Subject: Re: "La Ley Azteca" - Re: homosexualidad y lesbianismo >Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:30:01 -0700 > >The reason I brought this up is the fact that if you "disagree" with >this type of rabid, angry and hateful ideology, therefor you must be >"one of them".... if you are not anti-Semitic and homophobic you must >therefore be "pro Zionist " and part of the "enemies [out to] destroy >our culture" > >A culture of hatred? and intolerance??? > >Please check out OUR website to see a different way of looking at the >world: >www.mexicayotl.org > >thanks! >mario e. aguilar > >La Voz de Aztlan wrote: > > > Dear Moderator of the Nahuat-l List: > > > > Is this a pro-Zionist mailing list? > > Will we be banned? > > > > The "protocols" are published for > > information and discussion only. > > Many of us Mexicans are not familiar > > with them. Is it against the law to > > publish them? > > > > Regardless of all the above, what > > does this have to do with Nahuatl? > > You people are acting worse than Nazis. > > > > La Voz de Aztlan > > > > > > On Wed, 23 May 2001 13:17:09 -0600 > > "John F. Schwaller" wrote: > > > > > Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 09:53:38 -0500 > > > To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu > > > From: Bernard Ortiz de Montellano > > > Subject: Re[2]: "La Ley Azteca" - Re: homosexualidad y lesbianismo > > > > > > This is not quite the whole story. Please check the urls cited > > > http://www.aztlan.net/leyazteca.htm > > > http://www.aztlan.net/drinko.htm > > > Publishing the notorious antisemitic *Protocols of the Elders of > > > Zion" as well as several antisemitic articles clearly shows the > > > nature of this publication > > > > > > >Dear Nahuat-l List Members: > > > > > > > >We were offended by an individual on this > > > >list who identified him or herself as > > > >micc . Name calling and > > > >labeling of users of the list is > > > >unprofessional. We have been subscribers > > > >for a long time but have never posted. > > > >We have been contented in just reading > > > >the comments and learning a little > > > >Nahuatl along the way. La Voz de Aztlan > > > >is a bilingual news service and our > > > >subscribers are mostly Mexicans in the > > > >southwest U.S. and in Mexico. This > > > >person has insulted us. We are not > > > >insulting anyone here. This type of > > > >abuse should not be permitted in an > > > >academic oriented discussion group > > > >such as this one. We hope that the > > > >majority of the group does not support > > > >this person and allow us equal access > > > >to the discussion here on the Aztec > > > >Culture and language. > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From cristi at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 22 19:30:50 2001 From: cristi at ix.netcom.com (cristi at ix.netcom.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:30:50 -0600 Subject: Tlilli tlapalli In-Reply-To: <001201c0e9ea$6eecb6c0$70bee994@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: I remember there was some discussion about this question, and some very good points made. I was just reading Leon-Portilla's "Aztec Thought and Culture," and learning about Garabay's (sp?) idea of defrasismos--two words that, when combined, mean quite something else. This apparently was a strong feature of Nahuatl. (I ask those well-informed scholars among us to excuse my naive remarks here...) According to Garabay, "the black ink, the red ink" clearly meant "wisdom." Leon-Portilla sets out numerous examples of speeches that contain this phrase, and its meaning seems quite consistent. If the speaker wishes to include actual writing media, he always seems to add that later. The same principle applies to "precious flower, precious gem," which means "beautiful." I am even privately wondering if "a face, a heart" means "a good character." A big conjecture (leap of fantasy?): black and red are easily the best colors for making ink drawings/letters. In the European culture one sees the same thing. And Chinese. Other colors are unreliable--fade, change, or otherwise deteriorate. I am imagining that the early writers (Tolteca, perhaps?) used predominately this red and black ink. Later Mexica, who equated Toltec with supreme knowledge and art, may have come to refer to Toltec and/or Culhua manuscripts in this way--or perhaps there were other colors which simply faded away. Meanwhile, as their arts developed, they came up with workable paints of other bright and permanent colors (which persist to this day, although some have changed their hue). Of course, it is only a guess. We will never know, will we--since the most valuable texts of all went up in flames. Cristi > Does anyone have any idea what could have been the reason Dibble and = > Anderson (Florentine Codex VI: 259) translated the metaphor "Intlil = > intlapal" as "their black, their red" rather than "their black, their > = colors"? The translation of "tlapalli" as "red" keeps cropping up in > = modern sources. I can't remember where all I've seen it; another > example = is in Garibay's vocabulary, in the Porrua edition of the > Castillian text = of the Florentine Codex; "Tlapallan" is translated > as "Lugar del rojo". = Molina (I, 27r; II 130v) makes it clear that > "tlapalli" and the radical = "tlapal-" refer to pigments for painting > or dying in general, regardless = of hue; the same is true of Sahagun > (Florentine Codex XI: 245). Why red? = The only possible explanation I > can come up with is that "colorado, -a" = in old Castillian was used > for red, and retains this meaning today, = especially in informal > speech; this could have led to imprecise = translations. > > Comments regarding the deeper meanings of this metaphor, or possible = > modern survivals, would also be greatly appreciated. > > Best regards, > > David Wright > > ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0E9B7.92C45040 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > > >
Does anyone have any idea what could > = have been the=20 reason Dibble and Anderson (Florentine Codex VI: > 259) translated the = metaphor=20 "Intlil intlapal" as "their black, > their red" rather than "their black, = their=20 colors"? The > translation of "tlapalli" as "red" keeps cropping up in = modern=20 > sources. I can't remember where all I've seen it; another example is > in=20 Garibay's vocabulary, in the Porrua edition of the Castillian > text of = the=20 Florentine Codex; "Tlapallan" is translated as "Lugar > del rojo". Molina = (I, 27r;=20 II 130v) makes it clear that > "tlapalli" and the radical "tlapal-" refer = to=20 pigments for > painting or dying in general, regardless of hue; the same = is true=20 > of Sahagun (Florentine Codex XI: 245). Why red? The only > possible=20 explanation I can come up with is that "colorado, -a" in > old Castillian = was used=20 for red, and retains this meaning today, > especially in informal speech; = this=20 could have led to imprecise > translations.
 
size=3D3>Comments regarding the deeper meanings = of this=20 metaphor, > or possible modern survivals, would also be greatly=20 > appreciated.
 
face=3DArial>Best regards,
 
face=3DArial>David Wright
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0E9B7.92C45040-- > From curt at rosengren.net Sun Jun 24 12:59:53 2001 From: curt at rosengren.net (Curt Rosengren) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 05:59:53 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl word for center point of the "compass" Message-ID: >From what I understand, the Aztecs defined center as cardinal point in addition to north, south, east, west. I'm fascinated with that concept, and am trying to figure out what the Nahuatl word for that "direction" is. Can anyone help? Thanks! - curt rosengren From CHMuths at aol.com Sun Jun 24 15:18:18 2001 From: CHMuths at aol.com (CHMuths at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 11:18:18 EDT Subject: Nahuatl word for center point of the "compass" Message-ID: The central point is symbolised by the Nahuatl god Xipe Topec and the month correlating with it is March. Also this cardinal point is linked to the solar plexus and therefore links mankind to the cosmos. But I cannot help with the name of the cardinal point. Christa Muths From mdmorris at indiana.edu Sun Jun 24 15:43:49 2001 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 10:43:49 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl word for center point of the "compass" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Carl et. al, I believe the center is considered the umblical, xictli. I know the Annales del Museo Nacional c.a. 1920 at least published material on this; Lopez Austin's work on the human body probably also touches on it in his discussion of the tonalli. Sorry, I couldn't be more precise. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From malinal at evhr.net Thu Jun 21 03:33:20 2001 From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 05:33:20 +0200 Subject: Nahuatl word for center point of the "compass" Message-ID: I believe the center as cardinal point was named *tlalxicco*, in the umblical of the earth. This was where the fire burns. *tlalxictenticah*, ?he fills the umbilical of the earth?, was one of the names of the fire or fire god. Incense was offered towards the fire as well to the four cardinal directions. I don?t know if an other name of the domestical fire: *nauhyoteuctli*, the lord of the Four (directions??) was related with the four cardinal points. But the ideological connexions of the center were many. Best regards. Alexis Wimmer. http://nahuatl.ifrance.com -----Message d'origine----- De : Mark David Morris ? : nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Date : dimanche 24 juin 2001 17:02 Objet : Re: Nahuatl word for center point of the "compass" >Carl et. al, > >I believe the center is considered the umblical, xictli. I know the >Annales del Museo Nacional c.a. 1920 at least published material on this; >Lopez Austin's work on the human body probably also touches on it in his >discussion of the tonalli. Sorry, I couldn't be more precise. > >Mark Morris > From owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu Wed Jun 27 19:12:18 2001 From: owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu (owner-nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:12:18 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Dear List members, Sender: owner-nahuat-l at majordomo.umt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nahuat-l at majordomo.umt.edu Nahuat-l is moving to a new server. As some of you may know, on July 1, 2001, I will become trhe Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean of the University of Minnesota, Morris. As a result, Nahuat-l will no longer be administered from Montana, but will move to a server in Minnesota. There is nothing that you need to do. The switch over will be automatic. But here are a few reminders: The new list address will be: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu The new address for subscribe, unsubscribe, and other list serve commands: majordomo at mrs.umn.edu To subscribe to nahuat-l, send an email message to: majordomo at mrs.umn.edu containing the message text: subscribe nahuat-l To unsubscribe, send an email message (from the subscribed account) to: majordomo at mrs.umn.edu containing the message text: unsubscribe nahuat-l J. F. Schwaller List owner John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean (effective 7/1/2001) 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E. 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 Phone: 320-589-6015 FAX: 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu