From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Sat Mar  3 19:56:42 2001
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 14:56:42 -0500
Subject: quetzalteueyac
In-Reply-To: <200102271811.f1RIBLh22960@server2.umt.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.MAR.2001.145642.0500.>

I asked Luis Reyes Garcia who translated the Historia Tolteca Chichimeca
about Quetzalteueyac, and he states that the name is Quetzaltenhueyac,
with that spelling registered in several places and supported by the
glyph of a feather protruding from his lip.  The meaning of the name is
roughly Big Precious Mouth, or he who speaks well.

sincerely,
Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From carolandmike at eudoramail.com  Sun Mar  4 01:24:32 2001
From: carolandmike at eudoramail.com (Michael L. Lewis)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 17:24:32 -0800
Subject: quetzalteueyac
Message-ID: <SAT.3.MAR.2001.172432.0800.>

--
   Mark,

   I read somewhere of an elder & speaker of the Order of Eagle Knights of Anahuac who served Cauatemoc being called Battle Eagle.  Would that be Cauatlatehuilitzin?

      Thanks,

         Michael L. Lewis
         Senior Teacher, School of Wisdom



On Sat, 3 Mar 2001 14:56:42    Mark David Morris wrote:
>I asked Luis Reyes Garcia who translated the Historia Tolteca Chichimeca
>about Quetzalteueyac, and he states that the name is Quetzaltenhueyac,
>with that spelling registered in several places and supported by the
>glyph of a feather protruding from his lip.  The meaning of the name is
>roughly Big Precious Mouth, or he who speaks well.
>
>sincerely,
>Mark Morris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>La muerte tiene permiso a todo
>
>MDM, PhD Candidate
>Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
>
>
>


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com


From notoca at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  7 06:22:10 2001
From: notoca at hotmail.com (Chichiltic Coyotl)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:22:10 +0800
Subject: quetzalteueyac
Message-ID: <WED.7.MAR.2001.142210.0800.>

Hi

Not so long ago I vaguely recall a post saying that the noun quetzal-li
shouldn't be translated as precious. I think it went onto say that this
meaning only came into effect after the conquest. However, I continually see
the noun translated as precious as opposed to say just feather. Could
someone please clarify the usage of and meaning of quetzal-li as I am a
little confused with the different views.

Also, do I assume correct from the post below that a feather coming from the
lip means a good speaker and therefore quetzalteueyac would be similar in
meaning to the noun nahua-tl, a person who speaks clearly and intelligently?

thanks

EZR


>From: Mark David Morris <mdmorris at indiana.edu>
>glyph of a feather protruding from his lip.  The meaning of the name is
>roughly Big Precious Mouth, or he who speaks well.
>
>sincerely,
>Mark Morris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>La muerte tiene permiso a todo
>
>MDM, PhD Candidate
>Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
>
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


From malinal at evhr.net  Mon Mar  5 19:18:08 2001
From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:18:08 +0100
Subject: quetzalteueyac
Message-ID: <MON.5.MAR.2001.201808.0100.>

an other translation of Quetzaltenhueyac would be : who wears à long rim of
quetzal feathers, similar to the skirt worn by an impersonator of Xipe Totec
(Sah VIII 33 : ‘ça much quetzalli in itzapocue’, its sapote leaf skirt was
all of quetzal feathers.

sincerely,

Alexis Wimmer
http://nahuatl.ifrance.com



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Chichiltic Coyotl <notoca at hotmail.com>
À : nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
Date : mercredi 7 mars 2001 08:03
Objet : Re: quetzalteueyac



>Also, do I assume correct from the post below that a feather coming from
the
>lip means a good speaker and therefore quetzalteueyac would be similar in
>meaning to the noun nahua-tl, a person who speaks clearly and
intelligently?
>


From War14655 at aol.com  Thu Mar  8 02:38:32 2001
From: War14655 at aol.com (War14655 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 21:38:32 EST
Subject: quetzalteueyac
Message-ID: <WED.7.MAR.2001.213832.EST.>

I've been told by Mexicah elders that the word means "beautiful" and
"precious" and after all it's their language so regardless of what the old
colonial texts want to assert, ultimately today's speakers determine what the
word means.
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Mar  8 11:50:39 2001
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 06:50:39 -0500
Subject: quetzalteueyac
In-Reply-To: <90.111ee676.27d84aa8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.8.MAR.2001.065039.0500.>

No. Meanings may change over time; therefore, one must be attuned
both to what a particular term meant in an earlier form of a language and
to what it means in a modern form. Also, of course, meanings can be
different from dialect to dialect. It all depends on what form of the
language you are examining.

Michael McCafferty


On Wed, 7 Mar 2001 War14655 at aol.com wrote:

> I've been told by Mexicah elders that the word means "beautiful" and
> "precious" and after all it's their language so regardless of what the old
> colonial texts want to assert, ultimately today's speakers determine what the
> word means.
>


Michael McCafferty


From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk  Thu Mar  8 08:40:45 2001
From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 08:40:45 GMT
Subject: quetzalteueyac
Message-ID: <THU.8.MAR.2001.084045.GMT.>

   War14655 at aol.com wrote:-
 > I've been told by Mexicah elders that the word means "beautiful" and
 > "precious" and after all it's their language so


Quetzal feathers were traditionally precious, so over time the word went
through the same sort of meaning extensions as "gold(en)" has in English from
merely the metal to "valuable, good, the best" and suchlike.


 > regardless of what the old colonial texts want to assert,
 > ultimately today's speakers determine what the word means.


If so, then presumably the rightness of using {quetzal} as "precious" depends
on whether the author wants to write in present-day spoken Nahuatl or in
Moteuczomah period classical Tenochtitlanian Nahuatl. Same as e.g. {hagiazo:}
= "I sanctify" is correct New Testament Greek but not correct Homeric Greek.


(Off-topic PS: what is the current status re endangeredness etc of the quetzal
bird, anyway? Are they bred in captivity?)


Citlalya:ni


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Thu Mar  8 17:15:29 2001
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:15:29 -0700
Subject: quetzalteueyac
Message-ID: <THU.8.MAR.2001.101529.0700.>

Apprived: listsecret
From: "Jim Rader" <jrader at Merriam-Webster.com>
To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:16:24 -0500
Subject: Re: quetzalteueyac

I'm not terribly up-to-date on the status of the quetzal, so if
someone out there knows more, please correct me.
The resplendent quetzal (Pharomachrus mocinno) is a cloud forest
bird, living solely in wet montane forests and migrating seasonally
to lower elevations (meaning it requires a fair amount of territory).
At present the distribution of the bird is from the Sierra Madre de
Chiapas south to the vicinity of Chiriqui volcano in western
Panama, with many discontinuous stretches owing not only to
habitat loss but to the absence of cloud forest. I don't know if bird's
range was significantly different in pre-Conquest times. I believe
the best-known places to see the bird currently are the El Triunfo
biosphere reserve in Chiapas and the Monteverde reserve in Costa
Rica. VENT (Victor Emanuel Nature Tours) operates birding trips
to El Triunfo, and I saw quetzals on one of VENT's trips there in
1987. Western Guatemala, particularly the areas around the
Tajumulco and Tacana volcanos, was a stronghold of the birds
decades ago, but I have no ideas how they're faring there now. I
don't know if the birds have been bred in captivity with much
success. The Instituto para el Estudio de Aves Tropicales in Costa
Rica maintains quetzals, and they may have bred them.
As I've long understood it, the Nahuatl word <quetzalli> referred in
th 16th century to the long tail covert feathers of the male
resplendent quetzal. (Andrews etymologized the word as a
derivative of <quetza>, "to stand up.") Understand that these are
covert feathers, not essential for flight, so in theory they could be
removed from a captured bird without impeding its ability to fly--
though because the plumes are used in display flights to attract
females, the bird wouldn't have any breeding success until it
molted and grew new plumes.
Quetzals, like other New World trogons, have a distinctive
iridescent plumage that doesn't photograph well. When you see
them live in the forest, it's hard to believe they're real.
Jim Rader
 >
 > (Off-topic PS: what is the current status re endangeredness etc of the
quetzal
 > bird, anyway? Are they bred in captivity?)
 >
 >
 > Citlalya:ni
 >[Anthony Appleyard]


From cristi at ix.netcom.com  Thu Mar  8 17:18:18 2001
From: cristi at ix.netcom.com (cristi at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:18:18 -0700
Subject: quetzalteueyac
In-Reply-To: <200103081519.f28FJAL11653@server2.umt.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.8.MAR.2001.101818.0700.>

PS: what is the current status re endangeredness etc of the
> quetzal bird, anyway? Are they bred in captivity?)

The quetzal may still be found in what cloudforest remains in that
area.  It stays in the upper levels of the cloudforest, where its green
feathers camoflage it from predators.  Its numbers, however, are
threatened by the ongoing destruction of rainforest (which does not
regenerate).  It is also endangered by people capturing and selling
it.  (In other words, since people are buying it, people are
undoubtedly breeding it--but buying one of these birds would be
indirectly hasten the doom of the species by encouraging
poaching).

Cristi


From rosenthal_ann at colstate.edu  Thu Mar  8 18:36:35 2001
From: rosenthal_ann at colstate.edu (Ann Rosenthal)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:36:35 -0500
Subject: quetzalteueyac
In-Reply-To: <3AA75C6A.25394.845D09@localhost>
Message-ID: <THU.8.MAR.2001.133635.0500.>

And to illustrate the vagaries of meaning variations:

1 Guatemalan Quetzal = 0.13038 US Dollar

And some latino irony involved here as well: this money is definitely
featherweight.

Ann Rosenthal

>
>
> PS: what is the current status re endangeredness etc of the
> > quetzal bird, anyway? Are they bred in captivity?)
>
> The quetzal may still be found in what cloudforest remains in that
> area.  It stays in the upper levels of the cloudforest, where its green
> feathers camoflage it from predators.  Its numbers, however, are
> threatened by the ongoing destruction of rainforest (which does not
> regenerate).  It is also endangered by people capturing and selling
> it.  (In other words, since people are buying it, people are
> undoubtedly breeding it--but buying one of these birds would be
> indirectly hasten the doom of the species by encouraging
> poaching).
>
> Cristi
>


From War14655 at aol.com  Thu Mar  8 21:54:53 2001
From: War14655 at aol.com (War14655 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 16:54:53 EST
Subject: quetzalteueyac
Message-ID: <THU.8.MAR.2001.165453.EST.>

Wetlokenawaki panemowani
Se Miketotatzin Weyetlakateuktzintzin
Totatzin Tonaiuh
Totlazotlanantzin anawananinkanka
In kexkizkauh
Manintzin Sem Anawak Aik Ixpoliwiz
In Iteuh, In Ikawazka
In Iwalyaltepewa
Mexiko-Tenochtitlan


From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk  Fri Mar  9 08:36:54 2001
From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 08:36:54 GMT
Subject: quetzalteueyac
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAR.2001.083654.GMT.>

Someone wrote wrote about the quetzal bird:

"I read that they nest in holes in treetrunks. When they are breeding, the
male
has to take a turn sitting on the eggs, and his tail plumes are folded
forwards over his back and out of the hole, so that any passing marauding
snake or monkey or tree-cat might think that they were a very unappetizing
tuft of fern growing out of the hole."


From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk  Thu Mar  8 08:40:45 2001
From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 08:40:45 GMT
Subject: quetzalteueyac
Message-ID: <THU.8.MAR.2001.084045.GMT.>

    War14655 at aol.com wrote:-
  > I've been told by Mexicah elders that the word means "beautiful" and
  > "precious" and after all it's their language so



Quetzal feathers were traditionally precious, so over time the word went
through the same sort of meaning extensions as "gold(en)" has in English from
merely the metal to "valuable, good, the best" and suchlike.



  > regardless of what the old colonial texts want to assert,
  > ultimately today's speakers determine what the word means.



If so, then presumably the rightness of using {quetzal} as "precious" depends
on whether the author wants to write in present-day spoken Nahuatl or in
Moteuczomah period classical Tenochtitlanian Nahuatl. Same as e.g. {hagiazo:}
= "I sanctify" is correct New Testament Greek but not correct Homeric Greek.



(Off-topic PS: what is the current status re endangeredness etc of the quetzal
bird, anyway? Are they bred in captivity?)



Citlalya:ni

John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                               http://www.umt.edu/provost/


From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx  Thu Mar 15 02:44:07 2001
From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Joseph Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 10:44:07 +0800
Subject: Conditional sentences
Message-ID: <THU.15.MAR.2001.104407.0800.>

Well, I just learned how to say conditional sentences in Huastecan náhuatl,
and I thought I'd share it. For example (excuse history for the Spanish
mixted in, or don't), if you want to say, "If I had a lot of money, I would
buy a car," you would say, "Si tla nipixtos miyak tomi, nikkowaskia se
teposcarro."
1. "Si" = spanish "if"
2. "tla",= the same "tla" expressing wishes, commands, etc. that is found on
page 250 of An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl.
3. "nipixtos" = preterite form of "piya" + "ti" ligature, + "o" (to be
lying) + "s" (future). This is the Nahuatl equivalent of the past
subjunctive in Spanish.
    I'm not going to analyze anything else, because its in all the grammars.
What is interesting to me is the productivity of the auxiliary verb "o":
A) "-tok", nikwalantok = I am angry.
B) "-tok", ninejnentok = I have walked.
C) "-toya", ninejnentoya = I had walked.
D) "-tos", tla ninejnentos = If I had walked....

John Sullivan
Doctorado en Historia
Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas


From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk  Fri Mar 16 10:57:20 2001
From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:57:20 GMT
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <FRI.16.MAR.2001.105720.GMT.>

John Joseph Sullivan Hendricks <jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx> wrote:-
...
 > 3. "nipixtos" = preterite form of "piya" + "ti" ligature, + "o" (to be
 > lying) + "s" (future). This is the Nahuatl equivalent of the past
 > subjunctive in Spanish.
 > I'm not going to analyze anything else, because its in all the grammars.
 > What is interesting to me is the productivity of the auxiliary verb "o":
 > A) "-tok", nikwalantok = I am angry. ...
Sorry to be petty, but does this "lying" mean "tell a lie" or "lie down"? "To
lie" is to me the classical example of a word with two meanings that language
dictionaries often list without saying which meaning applies. I had this with
Greek {keimai} and Russian {lgat'}, and in both cases I did not find which
meaning was meant until I found a use in context where only one of the two
meanings made sense. In this case, I can tell which it is because I have seen
the rain god's name Tlaloc analyzed as "ground lie-down -er" = "that which
lies down on the ground", i.e. a description of surface water left by rain.
Citlalyani


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Mar 16 17:39:29 2001
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:39:29 -0500
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <200103161654.f2GGsOc30782@server2.umt.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.MAR.2001.123929.0500.>

The verb <piya> means 'have, guard', not 'lie down' or 'tell a lie'.



On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Anthony Appleyard wrote:

> John Joseph Sullivan Hendricks <jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx> wrote:-
> ...
>  > 3. "nipixtos" = preterite form of "piya" + "ti" ligature, + "o" (to be
>  > lying) + "s" (future). This is the Nahuatl equivalent of the past
>  > subjunctive in Spanish.
>  > I'm not going to analyze anything else, because its in all the grammars.
>  > What is interesting to me is the productivity of the auxiliary verb "o":
>  > A) "-tok", nikwalantok = I am angry. ...
> Sorry to be petty, but does this "lying" mean "tell a lie" or "lie down"? "To
> lie" is to me the classical example of a word with two meanings that language
> dictionaries often list without saying which meaning applies. I had this with
> Greek {keimai} and Russian {lgat'}, and in both cases I did not find which
> meaning was meant until I found a use in context where only one of the two
> meanings made sense. In this case, I can tell which it is because I have seen
> the rain god's name Tlaloc analyzed as "ground lie-down -er" = "that which
> lies down on the ground", i.e. a description of surface water left by rain.
> Citlalyani
>
>
>


Michael McCafferty
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese."

-Tom Robbins


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Mar 16 17:41:17 2001
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:41:17 -0500
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <200103161654.f2GGsOc30782@server2.umt.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.MAR.2001.124117.0500.>

Oh, you weren't talking about <piya>. Duh.

Nevermind.


On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Anthony Appleyard wrote:

> John Joseph Sullivan Hendricks <jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx> wrote:-
> ...
>  > 3. "nipixtos" = preterite form of "piya" + "ti" ligature, + "o" (to be
>  > lying) + "s" (future). This is the Nahuatl equivalent of the past
>  > subjunctive in Spanish.
>  > I'm not going to analyze anything else, because its in all the grammars.
>  > What is interesting to me is the productivity of the auxiliary verb "o":
>  > A) "-tok", nikwalantok = I am angry. ...
> Sorry to be petty, but does this "lying" mean "tell a lie" or "lie down"? "To
> lie" is to me the classical example of a word with two meanings that language
> dictionaries often list without saying which meaning applies. I had this with
> Greek {keimai} and Russian {lgat'}, and in both cases I did not find which
> meaning was meant until I found a use in context where only one of the two
> meanings made sense. In this case, I can tell which it is because I have seen
> the rain god's name Tlaloc analyzed as "ground lie-down -er" = "that which
> lies down on the ground", i.e. a description of surface water left by rain.
> Citlalyani
>
>
>


Michael McCafferty
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese."

-Tom Robbins


From War14655 at aol.com  Sat Mar 17 02:10:22 2001
From: War14655 at aol.com (War14655 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 21:10:22 EST
Subject: your mail
Message-ID: <FRI.16.MAR.2001.211022.EST.>

Tlatolhuilox
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From karttu at nantucket.net  Sat Mar 17 12:26:07 2001
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 07:26:07 -0500
Subject: another interp
Message-ID: <SAT.17.MAR.2001.072607.0500.>

>  > 3. "nipixtos" = preterite form of "piya" + "ti" ligature, + "o" (to be
>  > lying) + "s" (future). This is the Nahuatl equivalent of the past
>  > subjunctive in Spanish.

There is another possible way to look at this.  There are "purposive"
suffixes -quiuh/-co meaning 'to come to do something' and -tiuh/-to 'to go
to do something.'

The -co and -to forms tend to be generalized at the expense of the
-quiuh/-tiuh forms.

So maybe "nipixtos" can be understood as 'I (would) go to take care of
(something)' with the future -s still carrying a sense comparable to the
Spanish subjunctive.

After all, -s (spelled -z in the Spanish-based orthograpy) appears at the
end of Nahuatl conditional forms such as "nicnequi nicochi-z" 'I want to
sleep' and in the middle of conditional forms such as nicmaca-z-quiya 'I
would sell it.'  So it would make sense that it would be identified with the
Spanish subjunctive.

What I notice in this form is that the object prefix is missing.  One would
expect "ni-k-pixtos."  Is it possible that there is a soft, barely audible
-h- where I have written -k-?  Or is it really gone?

Fran


From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx  Sat Mar 17 01:02:40 2001
From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Joseph Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 09:02:40 +0800
Subject: another interp
In-Reply-To: <200103171228.HAA00442@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.17.MAR.2001.090240.0800.>

Fran,
    First of all, yes, I forgot to include the object prefixes:
"nikkowaskia" and "nikpixtos". I do that pretty often because in this
environment it is as you say: the "k" is not pronounced.
    Second, I don't think we are dealing with the purposive form here,
because in the examples I have heard so far, the main verb stem always takes
the form of the preterite theme.
    And since you mentioned the purposive forms here, the Huastecan speakers
I work with deal with the purposive forms in the following way:
"-co" and "-to" are the singular past tense forms, while "-ki" and "-ti" are
the singular future forms. I haven't ever heard the purposive used in the
present tense. In all cases the plural forms are achieved by adding the
"saltillo". I specifically asked for "-kiw", "-kiwij" and "-tiw", "-tiwij",
and they are not used. I can't remember right now how the command forms
work, but I will ask next week.
    John Sullivan

On 17/03/2001 20:26, "Frances Karttunen" <karttu at nantucket.net> wrote:

>
>>> 3. "nipixtos" = preterite form of "piya" + "ti" ligature, + "o" (to be
>>> lying) + "s" (future). This is the Nahuatl equivalent of the past
>>> subjunctive in Spanish.
>
> There is another possible way to look at this.  There are "purposive"
> suffixes -quiuh/-co meaning 'to come to do something' and -tiuh/-to 'to go
> to do something.'
>
> The -co and -to forms tend to be generalized at the expense of the
> -quiuh/-tiuh forms.
>
> So maybe "nipixtos" can be understood as 'I (would) go to take care of
> (something)' with the future -s still carrying a sense comparable to the
> Spanish subjunctive.
>
> After all, -s (spelled -z in the Spanish-based orthograpy) appears at the
> end of Nahuatl conditional forms such as "nicnequi nicochi-z" 'I want to
> sleep' and in the middle of conditional forms such as nicmaca-z-quiya 'I
> would sell it.'  So it would make sense that it would be identified with the
> Spanish subjunctive.
>
> What I notice in this form is that the object prefix is missing.  One would
> expect "ni-k-pixtos."  Is it possible that there is a soft, barely audible
> -h- where I have written -k-?  Or is it really gone?
>
> Fran
>


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Wed Mar 21 16:32:49 2001
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:32:49 -0500
Subject: Puebla-Tlaxcala Village Maps
In-Reply-To: <3A348D06.A4078BC9@ui.boe.es>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.113249.0500.>

In Tlaxcala, we are interested in getting color photographs of the
18th-19th-century falsified land maps from Tlaxcala held in the Library of
Congress, catalogued by John Glass in the _Handbook of American Indians_.
We have Glass's classification and a brief description prepared at the
time he did it, but do not know if his numbers correspond with the Library
of Congress's.  Could anyone provide  information that would obviate the
need to physically go  to the Library to ask for the photography service?

thanks,
Mark MOrris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Wed Mar 21 17:02:51 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:02:51 +0100
Subject: Puebla-Tlaxcala Village Maps
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.180251.0100.>

I have a dobut concerning de Toponym <Tlaxcal-lan> in wich manner the
ancient true toponym <Tex-cal-lan> was transmuted into <Tlaxcallan> ?

David Sánchez


From War14655 at aol.com  Thu Mar 22 00:27:27 2001
From: War14655 at aol.com (War14655 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:27:27 EST
Subject: Puebla-Tlaxcala Village Maps
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.192727.EST.>

Tlalahui tlapetzcahui in tlalticpac
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From swood at darkwing.uoregon.edu  Fri Mar 23 18:12:39 2001
From: swood at darkwing.uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:12:39 -0800
Subject: Puebla-Tlaxcala Village Maps
Message-ID: <FRI.23.MAR.2001.101239.0800.>

Hi Mark,

I sent you a message at your hotmail account this morning.  Do you get mail
at both addresses these days?

By the way, did you get a reply about the maps at the Library of Congress?
One person to contact there is John Hebert, formerly a bibliographer of the
Hispanic Division and now Chief of the Geography and Map Division.  I am
sorry I don't have his e-mail address, but here is a website that tells
about him: http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9911/hebert.html  I am sure you can
find a way to get a message to him.

Stephanie

----- Original Message -----
From: Mark David Morris <mdmorris at indiana.edu>
To: <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 8:32 AM
Subject: Puebla-Tlaxcala Village Maps


>
>
>
> In Tlaxcala, we are interested in getting color photographs of the
> 18th-19th-century falsified land maps from Tlaxcala held in the Library of
> Congress, catalogued by John Glass in the _Handbook of American Indians_.
> We have Glass's classification and a brief description prepared at the
> time he did it, but do not know if his numbers correspond with the Library
> of Congress's.  Could anyone provide  information that would obviate the
> need to physically go  to the Library to ask for the photography service?
>
> thanks,
> Mark MOrris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> La muerte tiene permiso a todo
>
> MDM, PhD Candidate
> Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
>


From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Wed Mar 28 23:22:29 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 01:22:29 +0200
Subject: Stress shifting suffixes
Message-ID: <THU.29.MAR.2001.012229.0200.>

Most grammars of classical nahuatl accept that stress accent fall on the
penultimate vowel, althought this is not the case in modern dialects.

My questions are:
1)  if locative suffix -co shifts stress one syllabe like in:

te:'ocal- > teocal + co > teo'calco

the form tepe:c (< tepe:- + co) form ancient: *te'pe:co is pronounced
"'tepe:c" or "te'pec:(o) > "te'pe:c".

2) can reasonabily reconstructed the accent pattern of classical nahuatl,
that is, is believable that stress fall always in penultimate syllabe?

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From gomez at geminis.unicit.unam.mx  Wed Mar 28 23:42:57 2001
From: gomez at geminis.unicit.unam.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Juan_Mart=EDn_G=F3mez?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:42:57 -0600
Subject: Pregunta...
In-Reply-To: <003201c0b7dd$f6a77940$8c0b523e@pc>
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAR.2001.174257.0600.>

   Que tal David,

   Disculpa que te moleste, yo solo estoy en esta lista
   de observador. Podrias aclararme una duda? tienes
   una idea del vocablo Oonoc? Onoc? cual es su significado?

   Mande un mansaje a esta lista pero nunca recibi respuesta.

   Saludos,

                 Juan M


From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Thu Mar 29 00:33:49 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 02:33:49 +0200
Subject: Pregunta...
Message-ID: <THU.29.MAR.2001.023349.0200.>

Naturalmente, Juan, se trata de dos formas del verbo <o>:

on-o-c           'uno que está tumbado o echado en el suelo'
o-on-o-c       'estuvo tirado o echado sobre el suelo'

<on-> direccional; <o> raíz verbal, <-c> marca de pasado/participio
para verbos de la clase I, <o-> marca redundante de pasado (verbal).

La verdad es que es una palabrita que se las trae verdad?

_______________________

>    Que tal David,
>
>    Disculpa que te moleste, yo solo estoy en esta lista
>    de observador. Podrias aclararme una duda? tienes
>    una idea del vocablo Oonoc? Onoc? cual es su significado?
>
>    Mande un mansaje a esta lista pero nunca recibi respuesta.
>
>    Saludos,
>
>                  Juan M
>


From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk  Thu Mar 29 08:04:58 2001
From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 08:04:58 GMT
Subject: Stress shifting suffixes
Message-ID: <THU.29.MAR.2001.080458.GMT.>

"David Sanchez" <davius_sanctex at terra.es> wrote:-
 > Most grammars of classical nahuatl accept that stress accent fall on the
 > penultimate vowel, althought this is not the case in modern dialects. ...

What tends to happen with the accent in modern dialects? I have seen Spanish
spellings with the accent on other syllables, e.g. "Tenochtitl�n". It could be
that sometimes, when Spanish-speakers try to pronounce a Nahuatl name, a
stress on a short vowel may tend to move to an adjacent long vowel. Spanish
does not have phonemic length of vowels, and an uneducated Spanish-speaker
might produce stress when trying to say a long vowel. And post-Conquest,
Spanishisms get into Nahuatl: e.g. I read once of Spanish {de} = "of" getting
into Nahuatl, and causing the mixed-language combination {din} = {de in}.
Citlalyani


From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Thu Mar 29 21:36:12 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 23:36:12 +0200
Subject: Stress shifting suffixes
Message-ID: <THU.29.MAR.2001.233612.0200.>

>What tends to happen with the accent in modern dialects?

For example the Orizaba dialect seems to have just reversed hierarchical rules
of classical nahuatl. This reversed order explains that tonalli is pronounced [´tonaLLi]
in Orizaba dialect and [to´naLLi] in classical nahuatl (according to most grammars).
Informally:

A) Rule of epentesis: in final position the sequences -VCC# are not allowed and
thus an epenthetic -i is added: chan + ABS = chan + tl > chan-tl-i.
B) Rule of accent: the stress fall in the penultimate vowel.

Orizaba dialect present application in order B-A, thus for example <´tonalli> is
stressed in 3st vowell from the end (not the second; surface form: tonalli [´tonaLLi]
phonological form: tonaltl / tonal.tl /):

0) tonal.tl
1) Assimilation (tl > l / l__#): tonal.l
2) Rule B: ´tonal.l
3) Rule A: ´tonal.l.i  and thus is pronounced [´tonaLLi]

But in classical nahuatl (as described in most grammars):

0) tonal.tl
1) Assimilation (tl > l / l__#): tonal.l
2) Rule A: tonal.li
3) Rule B: to´nal.l.i and thus is pronounced [to´naLLi]

My uncertainity is if it is thrue that rule A precedes rule B in classical nahuatl.
In my opinion written documents are insufficient by themselves to contradict
this fact.

Ma ximopapactzino



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From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Thu Mar 29 21:45:52 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 23:45:52 +0200
Subject: Stress shifting suffixes
Message-ID: <THU.29.MAR.2001.234552.0200.>

> I have seen Spanish spellings with the accent on other syllables, e.g.
> "Tenochtitlán". It could be that sometimes, when Spanish-speakers try
> to pronounce a Nahuatl name, a stress on a short vowel may tend
> to move to an adjacent long vowel.

Certainly it is difficult for all native spanish speakers utter an unstressed
long vowel, this is a tendency in all romance languages (in italian all stressed
vowels automatically are long). Accentual pattern of latin also shows this
tendency.

> Spanishisms get into Nahuatl: e.g. I read once of Spanish {de} = "of"
> getting into Nahuatl, and causing the mixed-language combination {din} = {de in}.

The case of spanish "de" is surprising because it is a non-tonic particle!


Onpa citla:lyani
David Sánchez
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From campbel at indiana.edu  Fri Mar 30 04:05:26 2001
From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 23:05:26 -0500
Subject: Stress shifting suffixes
In-Reply-To: <001001c0b898$4a550700$311e523e@pc>
Message-ID: <THU.29.MAR.2001.230526.0500.>

Some quickie remarks on stress variability in modern Nahuatl:

  (I mark accent immediately after the vowel that it occurs on
   [e.g., a' = accented 'a'])

   Both San Miguel Canoa (Puebla) and Xaltipan (Tlaxcala) have stress
displacement one syllable to the left in the absolutive form of nouns;
obviously, this does not occur on words of less than three syllables.
  |8-)
Nouns which have absolutive forms ending in "-li" in "Classical" and many
other modern dialects not only shift stress one syllable to the left, but
they also drop the final "i":

                Canoa           Tlaxcala                        "Classical"

                tla'xcal        tla'xcal        tortilla        tlaxca'lli
                ca'xtol         ca'xtol         fifteen         caxto'lli
                ma'cuil         ma'cuil         five            macui'lli

Note, however, that while both Canoa and Tlaxcala both also shift stress
one syllable to the left in nouns which have absolutive forms ending in
"-tli", Canoa keeps the final vowel intact while Tlaxcala deletes it
(parallel to the treatment of nouns in "-li" in both dialects).

                a'moxtli        a'moxtl         book            amo'xtli
                i'chpochtli     i'chpochtl      girl            ichpochtli
                tzo'htzomahtli  tzo'htzomahtl   clothing        tzohtzoma'htli
                ma'htlactli     ma'htlactl      ten             mahtla'ctli

Thus, Tlaxcala maintains regular penultimate stress in these nouns,
but Canoa has the unusual (for Nahuatl) pattern of antepenult stress in
nouns ending in "-tli".  However, Tlaxcala "pays" for its regularity in
the treatment of stress:  notice that these particular nouns now end in
consonant clusters -- something that Nahuatl is said not to "like".
(Other dialects *do* develop some "unliked" consonant cluster, such as
"xnicma'ti", 'I don't know it' [San Agustin Oapan, Guerrero], but that's
another story.)

   When I find my notes on stress shift in Oapan, I'll get back to you.
Or maybe someone else can contribute these observations.....




   Michoacan seems to have "basically" penultimate stress, but surface forms
frequently show final stress due to deletions.

   quichi'hua           he does it
   quichi'c             he did it
     Comment:  The consonant following the stressed vowel is optionally
        deleted, resulting also in "quichi'ac", and further, the unstressed
        vowel following stressed vowel is deleted.  Past tense does not
        involve truncation of the stem; preterit singular forms are indicated
        by the "-c" suffix.

  Further examples:

   moca'hua             he remains
   moca'c               he remained
     Comment:  Derived from "moca'[hua]c"

   nicmela'hua          I straighten it
   nicmela'c            I straightened it


  Variable forms:

   nechi'lic            she said it to me
   nechi'c              she said it to me
     Comment:  Derived from "nechi'[li]c"

   cata'ya              he was
   cata'                he was
     Comment:  Also derived by deletion of post-stress consonant and vowel.

   cua'huil             tree
   cua'l                tree
     Comment:  Also derived by deletion of post-stress consonant and vowel.

   noxo'lol             my child
   noxo'l               my child
     Comment:  "noxo'[lo]l"


Joe Campbell


From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Fri Mar 30 15:39:57 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 17:39:57 +0200
Subject: Stress shifting suffixes
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.173957.0200.>

I think the more facts of the magnifical exposition of J. Campbell
can be satisfactorially explained by rules of epenthesis (Rule A),
and penultimate syllabe accent (Rule B).

Campbell, accept that in classical dialects the accent is always
on penultimate syllabe, this implies that Rule A precedes always
Rule B. But it is possible that in some contemporanial dialects of
classical dialect of Tenochtitlan the order of Rules was reversed ?
That is, if some modern dialects reflect that Rule B precedes Rule
A, is this a recent fact or may it to be an ancient fact?
________________________________________
Explaining Campell's data:

>                 Canoa           Tlaxcala
"Classical"
>
>                 tla'xcal        tla'xcal        tortilla        tlaxca'lli
>                 ca'xtol         ca'xtol         fifteen         caxto'lli
>                 ma'cuil         ma'cuil         five            macui'lli

0a) abstract phonological forms: /tlaxcal/, /caxtol/, /macuil/
0b) absolutive suffix for l-final forms: -Ø (none)
1) Rule A has the trivial efect (since the phonological forms already have
an acceptable surface form): <taxcal, caxtol, mauil>
2) Rule B produces trivially the correct accent: ['tlaS.kaL], ['kaS.toL] ...

>                 a'moxtli        a'moxtl         book            amo'xtli
>                 i'chpochtli     i'chpochtl      girl            ichpochtli
>                 tzo'htzomahtli  tzo'htzomahtl   clothing
tzohtzoma'htli
>                 ma'htlactli     ma'htlactl      ten
mahtla'ctli

Here there is a difference between San Miguel Canoa dialect and Tlaxcala
dialect, the second allowing more complex syllabic paterns at the end of
word.
But stress accent is equally well predicted by rules A and B, if we apply
first
rule B and then rule A.

As for the Michoacan dialects rules also predict correctly:
>
> a)    quichi'hua           he does it
> b)    quichi'c             he did it
>  c)   moca'hua             he remains
>  d)   moca'c               he remained

0) Abstract phonological forms: a) kichiwa, b) kichiak, c) mokawa & mokawak
1) Rule B: a) kichi'wa, b) kichi'ak, c) moka'wak
2) Rule A acts trivially, and has no effect.
3) Forms b) & d) undergoes an "apocope" and is reduced to b) kichi'k & d)
moka'k

The rest of "anomalous" examples (with respect "Classical nahuatl" accepted
forms),
are equally explained by the hierarchical application of rules in the order,
first B,
secondly A.

David Sánchez


From indus56 at telusplanet.net  Fri Mar 30 20:56:11 2001
From: indus56 at telusplanet.net (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 13:56:11 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl for marmot?
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.135611.0700.>

I'm assuming, given the wide range of territories that have been
occupied by speakers of Nahuatl, that there is a word for marmot.

Would anyone happen to know what that is?

I'm less sure that there are or were marmots around the Valley of Mexico
or on the slopes of the volcanoes. Might anyone have any idea?

Many thanks,
Paul Anderson


From jrader at Merriam-Webster.com  Fri Mar 30 22:31:04 2001
From: jrader at Merriam-Webster.com (Jim Rader)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 17:31:04 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl for marmot?
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.173104.0500.>

 > I'm assuming, given the wide range of territories that have been
 > occupied by speakers of Nahuatl, that there is a word for marmot.
 >
 > Would anyone happen to know what that is?
 >
 > I'm less sure that there are or were marmots around the Valley of Mexico
 > or on the slopes of the volcanoes. Might anyone have any idea?
 >

According to the usually authoritative _Walker's Mammals of the
World_, none of the 14 species of marmot, which include the
woodchuck or groundhog (Marmota monax) of the U.S., are found
in either the southwestern U.S. or Mexico. So it seems pretty
unlikely there was a Nahuatl word for them.
Jim Rader


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Sat Mar  3 19:56:42 2001
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 14:56:42 -0500
Subject: quetzalteueyac
In-Reply-To: <200102271811.f1RIBLh22960@server2.umt.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.MAR.2001.145642.0500.>

I asked Luis Reyes Garcia who translated the Historia Tolteca Chichimeca
about Quetzalteueyac, and he states that the name is Quetzaltenhueyac,
with that spelling registered in several places and supported by the
glyph of a feather protruding from his lip.  The meaning of the name is
roughly Big Precious Mouth, or he who speaks well.

sincerely,
Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From carolandmike at eudoramail.com  Sun Mar  4 01:24:32 2001
From: carolandmike at eudoramail.com (Michael L. Lewis)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 17:24:32 -0800
Subject: quetzalteueyac
Message-ID: <SAT.3.MAR.2001.172432.0800.>

--
   Mark,

   I read somewhere of an elder & speaker of the Order of Eagle Knights of Anahuac who served Cauatemoc being called Battle Eagle.  Would that be Cauatlatehuilitzin?

      Thanks,

         Michael L. Lewis
         Senior Teacher, School of Wisdom



On Sat, 3 Mar 2001 14:56:42    Mark David Morris wrote:
>I asked Luis Reyes Garcia who translated the Historia Tolteca Chichimeca
>about Quetzalteueyac, and he states that the name is Quetzaltenhueyac,
>with that spelling registered in several places and supported by the
>glyph of a feather protruding from his lip.  The meaning of the name is
>roughly Big Precious Mouth, or he who speaks well.
>
>sincerely,
>Mark Morris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>La muerte tiene permiso a todo
>
>MDM, PhD Candidate
>Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
>
>
>


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com


From notoca at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  7 06:22:10 2001
From: notoca at hotmail.com (Chichiltic Coyotl)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:22:10 +0800
Subject: quetzalteueyac
Message-ID: <WED.7.MAR.2001.142210.0800.>

Hi

Not so long ago I vaguely recall a post saying that the noun quetzal-li
shouldn't be translated as precious. I think it went onto say that this
meaning only came into effect after the conquest. However, I continually see
the noun translated as precious as opposed to say just feather. Could
someone please clarify the usage of and meaning of quetzal-li as I am a
little confused with the different views.

Also, do I assume correct from the post below that a feather coming from the
lip means a good speaker and therefore quetzalteueyac would be similar in
meaning to the noun nahua-tl, a person who speaks clearly and intelligently?

thanks

EZR


>From: Mark David Morris <mdmorris at indiana.edu>
>glyph of a feather protruding from his lip.  The meaning of the name is
>roughly Big Precious Mouth, or he who speaks well.
>
>sincerely,
>Mark Morris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>La muerte tiene permiso a todo
>
>MDM, PhD Candidate
>Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
>
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


From malinal at evhr.net  Mon Mar  5 19:18:08 2001
From: malinal at evhr.net (alexis wimmer)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:18:08 +0100
Subject: quetzalteueyac
Message-ID: <MON.5.MAR.2001.201808.0100.>

an other translation of Quetzaltenhueyac would be : who wears ? long rim of
quetzal feathers, similar to the skirt worn by an impersonator of Xipe Totec
(Sah VIII 33 : ??a much quetzalli in itzapocue?, its sapote leaf skirt was
all of quetzal feathers.

sincerely,

Alexis Wimmer
http://nahuatl.ifrance.com



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Chichiltic Coyotl <notoca at hotmail.com>
? : nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
Date : mercredi 7 mars 2001 08:03
Objet : Re: quetzalteueyac



>Also, do I assume correct from the post below that a feather coming from
the
>lip means a good speaker and therefore quetzalteueyac would be similar in
>meaning to the noun nahua-tl, a person who speaks clearly and
intelligently?
>


From War14655 at aol.com  Thu Mar  8 02:38:32 2001
From: War14655 at aol.com (War14655 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 21:38:32 EST
Subject: quetzalteueyac
Message-ID: <WED.7.MAR.2001.213832.EST.>

I've been told by Mexicah elders that the word means "beautiful" and
"precious" and after all it's their language so regardless of what the old
colonial texts want to assert, ultimately today's speakers determine what the
word means.
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From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Thu Mar  8 11:50:39 2001
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 06:50:39 -0500
Subject: quetzalteueyac
In-Reply-To: <90.111ee676.27d84aa8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.8.MAR.2001.065039.0500.>

No. Meanings may change over time; therefore, one must be attuned
both to what a particular term meant in an earlier form of a language and
to what it means in a modern form. Also, of course, meanings can be
different from dialect to dialect. It all depends on what form of the
language you are examining.

Michael McCafferty


On Wed, 7 Mar 2001 War14655 at aol.com wrote:

> I've been told by Mexicah elders that the word means "beautiful" and
> "precious" and after all it's their language so regardless of what the old
> colonial texts want to assert, ultimately today's speakers determine what the
> word means.
>


Michael McCafferty


From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk  Thu Mar  8 08:40:45 2001
From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 08:40:45 GMT
Subject: quetzalteueyac
Message-ID: <THU.8.MAR.2001.084045.GMT.>

   War14655 at aol.com wrote:-
 > I've been told by Mexicah elders that the word means "beautiful" and
 > "precious" and after all it's their language so


Quetzal feathers were traditionally precious, so over time the word went
through the same sort of meaning extensions as "gold(en)" has in English from
merely the metal to "valuable, good, the best" and suchlike.


 > regardless of what the old colonial texts want to assert,
 > ultimately today's speakers determine what the word means.


If so, then presumably the rightness of using {quetzal} as "precious" depends
on whether the author wants to write in present-day spoken Nahuatl or in
Moteuczomah period classical Tenochtitlanian Nahuatl. Same as e.g. {hagiazo:}
= "I sanctify" is correct New Testament Greek but not correct Homeric Greek.


(Off-topic PS: what is the current status re endangeredness etc of the quetzal
bird, anyway? Are they bred in captivity?)


Citlalya:ni


From schwallr at selway.umt.edu  Thu Mar  8 17:15:29 2001
From: schwallr at selway.umt.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:15:29 -0700
Subject: quetzalteueyac
Message-ID: <THU.8.MAR.2001.101529.0700.>

Apprived: listsecret
From: "Jim Rader" <jrader at Merriam-Webster.com>
To: nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:16:24 -0500
Subject: Re: quetzalteueyac

I'm not terribly up-to-date on the status of the quetzal, so if
someone out there knows more, please correct me.
The resplendent quetzal (Pharomachrus mocinno) is a cloud forest
bird, living solely in wet montane forests and migrating seasonally
to lower elevations (meaning it requires a fair amount of territory).
At present the distribution of the bird is from the Sierra Madre de
Chiapas south to the vicinity of Chiriqui volcano in western
Panama, with many discontinuous stretches owing not only to
habitat loss but to the absence of cloud forest. I don't know if bird's
range was significantly different in pre-Conquest times. I believe
the best-known places to see the bird currently are the El Triunfo
biosphere reserve in Chiapas and the Monteverde reserve in Costa
Rica. VENT (Victor Emanuel Nature Tours) operates birding trips
to El Triunfo, and I saw quetzals on one of VENT's trips there in
1987. Western Guatemala, particularly the areas around the
Tajumulco and Tacana volcanos, was a stronghold of the birds
decades ago, but I have no ideas how they're faring there now. I
don't know if the birds have been bred in captivity with much
success. The Instituto para el Estudio de Aves Tropicales in Costa
Rica maintains quetzals, and they may have bred them.
As I've long understood it, the Nahuatl word <quetzalli> referred in
th 16th century to the long tail covert feathers of the male
resplendent quetzal. (Andrews etymologized the word as a
derivative of <quetza>, "to stand up.") Understand that these are
covert feathers, not essential for flight, so in theory they could be
removed from a captured bird without impeding its ability to fly--
though because the plumes are used in display flights to attract
females, the bird wouldn't have any breeding success until it
molted and grew new plumes.
Quetzals, like other New World trogons, have a distinctive
iridescent plumage that doesn't photograph well. When you see
them live in the forest, it's hard to believe they're real.
Jim Rader
 >
 > (Off-topic PS: what is the current status re endangeredness etc of the
quetzal
 > bird, anyway? Are they bred in captivity?)
 >
 >
 > Citlalya:ni
 >[Anthony Appleyard]


From cristi at ix.netcom.com  Thu Mar  8 17:18:18 2001
From: cristi at ix.netcom.com (cristi at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:18:18 -0700
Subject: quetzalteueyac
In-Reply-To: <200103081519.f28FJAL11653@server2.umt.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.8.MAR.2001.101818.0700.>

PS: what is the current status re endangeredness etc of the
> quetzal bird, anyway? Are they bred in captivity?)

The quetzal may still be found in what cloudforest remains in that
area.  It stays in the upper levels of the cloudforest, where its green
feathers camoflage it from predators.  Its numbers, however, are
threatened by the ongoing destruction of rainforest (which does not
regenerate).  It is also endangered by people capturing and selling
it.  (In other words, since people are buying it, people are
undoubtedly breeding it--but buying one of these birds would be
indirectly hasten the doom of the species by encouraging
poaching).

Cristi


From rosenthal_ann at colstate.edu  Thu Mar  8 18:36:35 2001
From: rosenthal_ann at colstate.edu (Ann Rosenthal)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:36:35 -0500
Subject: quetzalteueyac
In-Reply-To: <3AA75C6A.25394.845D09@localhost>
Message-ID: <THU.8.MAR.2001.133635.0500.>

And to illustrate the vagaries of meaning variations:

1 Guatemalan Quetzal = 0.13038 US Dollar

And some latino irony involved here as well: this money is definitely
featherweight.

Ann Rosenthal

>
>
> PS: what is the current status re endangeredness etc of the
> > quetzal bird, anyway? Are they bred in captivity?)
>
> The quetzal may still be found in what cloudforest remains in that
> area.  It stays in the upper levels of the cloudforest, where its green
> feathers camoflage it from predators.  Its numbers, however, are
> threatened by the ongoing destruction of rainforest (which does not
> regenerate).  It is also endangered by people capturing and selling
> it.  (In other words, since people are buying it, people are
> undoubtedly breeding it--but buying one of these birds would be
> indirectly hasten the doom of the species by encouraging
> poaching).
>
> Cristi
>


From War14655 at aol.com  Thu Mar  8 21:54:53 2001
From: War14655 at aol.com (War14655 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 16:54:53 EST
Subject: quetzalteueyac
Message-ID: <THU.8.MAR.2001.165453.EST.>

Wetlokenawaki panemowani
Se Miketotatzin Weyetlakateuktzintzin
Totatzin Tonaiuh
Totlazotlanantzin anawananinkanka
In kexkizkauh
Manintzin Sem Anawak Aik Ixpoliwiz
In Iteuh, In Ikawazka
In Iwalyaltepewa
Mexiko-Tenochtitlan


From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk  Fri Mar  9 08:36:54 2001
From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 08:36:54 GMT
Subject: quetzalteueyac
Message-ID: <FRI.9.MAR.2001.083654.GMT.>

Someone wrote wrote about the quetzal bird:

"I read that they nest in holes in treetrunks. When they are breeding, the
male
has to take a turn sitting on the eggs, and his tail plumes are folded
forwards over his back and out of the hole, so that any passing marauding
snake or monkey or tree-cat might think that they were a very unappetizing
tuft of fern growing out of the hole."


From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk  Thu Mar  8 08:40:45 2001
From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 08:40:45 GMT
Subject: quetzalteueyac
Message-ID: <THU.8.MAR.2001.084045.GMT.>

    War14655 at aol.com wrote:-
  > I've been told by Mexicah elders that the word means "beautiful" and
  > "precious" and after all it's their language so



Quetzal feathers were traditionally precious, so over time the word went
through the same sort of meaning extensions as "gold(en)" has in English from
merely the metal to "valuable, good, the best" and suchlike.



  > regardless of what the old colonial texts want to assert,
  > ultimately today's speakers determine what the word means.



If so, then presumably the rightness of using {quetzal} as "precious" depends
on whether the author wants to write in present-day spoken Nahuatl or in
Moteuczomah period classical Tenochtitlanian Nahuatl. Same as e.g. {hagiazo:}
= "I sanctify" is correct New Testament Greek but not correct Homeric Greek.



(Off-topic PS: what is the current status re endangeredness etc of the quetzal
bird, anyway? Are they bred in captivity?)



Citlalya:ni

John Frederick Schwaller                             schwallr at selway.umt.edu
Associate Provost                                        406-243-4722
The University of Montana                           FAX 406-243-5937
                               http://www.umt.edu/provost/


From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx  Thu Mar 15 02:44:07 2001
From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Joseph Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 10:44:07 +0800
Subject: Conditional sentences
Message-ID: <THU.15.MAR.2001.104407.0800.>

Well, I just learned how to say conditional sentences in Huastecan n?huatl,
and I thought I'd share it. For example (excuse history for the Spanish
mixted in, or don't), if you want to say, "If I had a lot of money, I would
buy a car," you would say, "Si tla nipixtos miyak tomi, nikkowaskia se
teposcarro."
1. "Si" = spanish "if"
2. "tla",= the same "tla" expressing wishes, commands, etc. that is found on
page 250 of An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl.
3. "nipixtos" = preterite form of "piya" + "ti" ligature, + "o" (to be
lying) + "s" (future). This is the Nahuatl equivalent of the past
subjunctive in Spanish.
    I'm not going to analyze anything else, because its in all the grammars.
What is interesting to me is the productivity of the auxiliary verb "o":
A) "-tok", nikwalantok = I am angry.
B) "-tok", ninejnentok = I have walked.
C) "-toya", ninejnentoya = I had walked.
D) "-tos", tla ninejnentos = If I had walked....

John Sullivan
Doctorado en Historia
Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas


From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk  Fri Mar 16 10:57:20 2001
From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:57:20 GMT
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <FRI.16.MAR.2001.105720.GMT.>

John Joseph Sullivan Hendricks <jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx> wrote:-
...
 > 3. "nipixtos" = preterite form of "piya" + "ti" ligature, + "o" (to be
 > lying) + "s" (future). This is the Nahuatl equivalent of the past
 > subjunctive in Spanish.
 > I'm not going to analyze anything else, because its in all the grammars.
 > What is interesting to me is the productivity of the auxiliary verb "o":
 > A) "-tok", nikwalantok = I am angry. ...
Sorry to be petty, but does this "lying" mean "tell a lie" or "lie down"? "To
lie" is to me the classical example of a word with two meanings that language
dictionaries often list without saying which meaning applies. I had this with
Greek {keimai} and Russian {lgat'}, and in both cases I did not find which
meaning was meant until I found a use in context where only one of the two
meanings made sense. In this case, I can tell which it is because I have seen
the rain god's name Tlaloc analyzed as "ground lie-down -er" = "that which
lies down on the ground", i.e. a description of surface water left by rain.
Citlalyani


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Mar 16 17:39:29 2001
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:39:29 -0500
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <200103161654.f2GGsOc30782@server2.umt.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.MAR.2001.123929.0500.>

The verb <piya> means 'have, guard', not 'lie down' or 'tell a lie'.



On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Anthony Appleyard wrote:

> John Joseph Sullivan Hendricks <jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx> wrote:-
> ...
>  > 3. "nipixtos" = preterite form of "piya" + "ti" ligature, + "o" (to be
>  > lying) + "s" (future). This is the Nahuatl equivalent of the past
>  > subjunctive in Spanish.
>  > I'm not going to analyze anything else, because its in all the grammars.
>  > What is interesting to me is the productivity of the auxiliary verb "o":
>  > A) "-tok", nikwalantok = I am angry. ...
> Sorry to be petty, but does this "lying" mean "tell a lie" or "lie down"? "To
> lie" is to me the classical example of a word with two meanings that language
> dictionaries often list without saying which meaning applies. I had this with
> Greek {keimai} and Russian {lgat'}, and in both cases I did not find which
> meaning was meant until I found a use in context where only one of the two
> meanings made sense. In this case, I can tell which it is because I have seen
> the rain god's name Tlaloc analyzed as "ground lie-down -er" = "that which
> lies down on the ground", i.e. a description of surface water left by rain.
> Citlalyani
>
>
>


Michael McCafferty
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese."

-Tom Robbins


From mmccaffe at indiana.edu  Fri Mar 16 17:41:17 2001
From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:41:17 -0500
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <200103161654.f2GGsOc30782@server2.umt.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.16.MAR.2001.124117.0500.>

Oh, you weren't talking about <piya>. Duh.

Nevermind.


On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Anthony Appleyard wrote:

> John Joseph Sullivan Hendricks <jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx> wrote:-
> ...
>  > 3. "nipixtos" = preterite form of "piya" + "ti" ligature, + "o" (to be
>  > lying) + "s" (future). This is the Nahuatl equivalent of the past
>  > subjunctive in Spanish.
>  > I'm not going to analyze anything else, because its in all the grammars.
>  > What is interesting to me is the productivity of the auxiliary verb "o":
>  > A) "-tok", nikwalantok = I am angry. ...
> Sorry to be petty, but does this "lying" mean "tell a lie" or "lie down"? "To
> lie" is to me the classical example of a word with two meanings that language
> dictionaries often list without saying which meaning applies. I had this with
> Greek {keimai} and Russian {lgat'}, and in both cases I did not find which
> meaning was meant until I found a use in context where only one of the two
> meanings made sense. In this case, I can tell which it is because I have seen
> the rain god's name Tlaloc analyzed as "ground lie-down -er" = "that which
> lies down on the ground", i.e. a description of surface water left by rain.
> Citlalyani
>
>
>


Michael McCafferty
307 Memorial Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
47405
mmccaffe at indiana.edu

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese."

-Tom Robbins


From War14655 at aol.com  Sat Mar 17 02:10:22 2001
From: War14655 at aol.com (War14655 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 21:10:22 EST
Subject: your mail
Message-ID: <FRI.16.MAR.2001.211022.EST.>

Tlatolhuilox
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From karttu at nantucket.net  Sat Mar 17 12:26:07 2001
From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 07:26:07 -0500
Subject: another interp
Message-ID: <SAT.17.MAR.2001.072607.0500.>

>  > 3. "nipixtos" = preterite form of "piya" + "ti" ligature, + "o" (to be
>  > lying) + "s" (future). This is the Nahuatl equivalent of the past
>  > subjunctive in Spanish.

There is another possible way to look at this.  There are "purposive"
suffixes -quiuh/-co meaning 'to come to do something' and -tiuh/-to 'to go
to do something.'

The -co and -to forms tend to be generalized at the expense of the
-quiuh/-tiuh forms.

So maybe "nipixtos" can be understood as 'I (would) go to take care of
(something)' with the future -s still carrying a sense comparable to the
Spanish subjunctive.

After all, -s (spelled -z in the Spanish-based orthograpy) appears at the
end of Nahuatl conditional forms such as "nicnequi nicochi-z" 'I want to
sleep' and in the middle of conditional forms such as nicmaca-z-quiya 'I
would sell it.'  So it would make sense that it would be identified with the
Spanish subjunctive.

What I notice in this form is that the object prefix is missing.  One would
expect "ni-k-pixtos."  Is it possible that there is a soft, barely audible
-h- where I have written -k-?  Or is it really gone?

Fran


From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx  Sat Mar 17 01:02:40 2001
From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Joseph Sullivan Hendricks)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 09:02:40 +0800
Subject: another interp
In-Reply-To: <200103171228.HAA00442@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.17.MAR.2001.090240.0800.>

Fran,
    First of all, yes, I forgot to include the object prefixes:
"nikkowaskia" and "nikpixtos". I do that pretty often because in this
environment it is as you say: the "k" is not pronounced.
    Second, I don't think we are dealing with the purposive form here,
because in the examples I have heard so far, the main verb stem always takes
the form of the preterite theme.
    And since you mentioned the purposive forms here, the Huastecan speakers
I work with deal with the purposive forms in the following way:
"-co" and "-to" are the singular past tense forms, while "-ki" and "-ti" are
the singular future forms. I haven't ever heard the purposive used in the
present tense. In all cases the plural forms are achieved by adding the
"saltillo". I specifically asked for "-kiw", "-kiwij" and "-tiw", "-tiwij",
and they are not used. I can't remember right now how the command forms
work, but I will ask next week.
    John Sullivan

On 17/03/2001 20:26, "Frances Karttunen" <karttu at nantucket.net> wrote:

>
>>> 3. "nipixtos" = preterite form of "piya" + "ti" ligature, + "o" (to be
>>> lying) + "s" (future). This is the Nahuatl equivalent of the past
>>> subjunctive in Spanish.
>
> There is another possible way to look at this.  There are "purposive"
> suffixes -quiuh/-co meaning 'to come to do something' and -tiuh/-to 'to go
> to do something.'
>
> The -co and -to forms tend to be generalized at the expense of the
> -quiuh/-tiuh forms.
>
> So maybe "nipixtos" can be understood as 'I (would) go to take care of
> (something)' with the future -s still carrying a sense comparable to the
> Spanish subjunctive.
>
> After all, -s (spelled -z in the Spanish-based orthograpy) appears at the
> end of Nahuatl conditional forms such as "nicnequi nicochi-z" 'I want to
> sleep' and in the middle of conditional forms such as nicmaca-z-quiya 'I
> would sell it.'  So it would make sense that it would be identified with the
> Spanish subjunctive.
>
> What I notice in this form is that the object prefix is missing.  One would
> expect "ni-k-pixtos."  Is it possible that there is a soft, barely audible
> -h- where I have written -k-?  Or is it really gone?
>
> Fran
>


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Wed Mar 21 16:32:49 2001
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:32:49 -0500
Subject: Puebla-Tlaxcala Village Maps
In-Reply-To: <3A348D06.A4078BC9@ui.boe.es>
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.113249.0500.>

In Tlaxcala, we are interested in getting color photographs of the
18th-19th-century falsified land maps from Tlaxcala held in the Library of
Congress, catalogued by John Glass in the _Handbook of American Indians_.
We have Glass's classification and a brief description prepared at the
time he did it, but do not know if his numbers correspond with the Library
of Congress's.  Could anyone provide  information that would obviate the
need to physically go  to the Library to ask for the photography service?

thanks,
Mark MOrris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Wed Mar 21 17:02:51 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:02:51 +0100
Subject: Puebla-Tlaxcala Village Maps
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.180251.0100.>

I have a dobut concerning de Toponym <Tlaxcal-lan> in wich manner the
ancient true toponym <Tex-cal-lan> was transmuted into <Tlaxcallan> ?

David S?nchez


From War14655 at aol.com  Thu Mar 22 00:27:27 2001
From: War14655 at aol.com (War14655 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:27:27 EST
Subject: Puebla-Tlaxcala Village Maps
Message-ID: <WED.21.MAR.2001.192727.EST.>

Tlalahui tlapetzcahui in tlalticpac
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From swood at darkwing.uoregon.edu  Fri Mar 23 18:12:39 2001
From: swood at darkwing.uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:12:39 -0800
Subject: Puebla-Tlaxcala Village Maps
Message-ID: <FRI.23.MAR.2001.101239.0800.>

Hi Mark,

I sent you a message at your hotmail account this morning.  Do you get mail
at both addresses these days?

By the way, did you get a reply about the maps at the Library of Congress?
One person to contact there is John Hebert, formerly a bibliographer of the
Hispanic Division and now Chief of the Geography and Map Division.  I am
sorry I don't have his e-mail address, but here is a website that tells
about him: http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9911/hebert.html  I am sure you can
find a way to get a message to him.

Stephanie

----- Original Message -----
From: Mark David Morris <mdmorris at indiana.edu>
To: <nahuat-l at server2.umt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 8:32 AM
Subject: Puebla-Tlaxcala Village Maps


>
>
>
> In Tlaxcala, we are interested in getting color photographs of the
> 18th-19th-century falsified land maps from Tlaxcala held in the Library of
> Congress, catalogued by John Glass in the _Handbook of American Indians_.
> We have Glass's classification and a brief description prepared at the
> time he did it, but do not know if his numbers correspond with the Library
> of Congress's.  Could anyone provide  information that would obviate the
> need to physically go  to the Library to ask for the photography service?
>
> thanks,
> Mark MOrris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> La muerte tiene permiso a todo
>
> MDM, PhD Candidate
> Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
>


From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Wed Mar 28 23:22:29 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 01:22:29 +0200
Subject: Stress shifting suffixes
Message-ID: <THU.29.MAR.2001.012229.0200.>

Most grammars of classical nahuatl accept that stress accent fall on the
penultimate vowel, althought this is not the case in modern dialects.

My questions are:
1)  if locative suffix -co shifts stress one syllabe like in:

te:'ocal- > teocal + co > teo'calco

the form tepe:c (< tepe:- + co) form ancient: *te'pe:co is pronounced
"'tepe:c" or "te'pec:(o) > "te'pe:c".

2) can reasonabily reconstructed the accent pattern of classical nahuatl,
that is, is believable that stress fall always in penultimate syllabe?

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From gomez at geminis.unicit.unam.mx  Wed Mar 28 23:42:57 2001
From: gomez at geminis.unicit.unam.mx (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Juan_Mart=EDn_G=F3mez?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:42:57 -0600
Subject: Pregunta...
In-Reply-To: <003201c0b7dd$f6a77940$8c0b523e@pc>
Message-ID: <WED.28.MAR.2001.174257.0600.>

   Que tal David,

   Disculpa que te moleste, yo solo estoy en esta lista
   de observador. Podrias aclararme una duda? tienes
   una idea del vocablo Oonoc? Onoc? cual es su significado?

   Mande un mansaje a esta lista pero nunca recibi respuesta.

   Saludos,

                 Juan M


From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Thu Mar 29 00:33:49 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 02:33:49 +0200
Subject: Pregunta...
Message-ID: <THU.29.MAR.2001.023349.0200.>

Naturalmente, Juan, se trata de dos formas del verbo <o>:

on-o-c           'uno que est? tumbado o echado en el suelo'
o-on-o-c       'estuvo tirado o echado sobre el suelo'

<on-> direccional; <o> ra?z verbal, <-c> marca de pasado/participio
para verbos de la clase I, <o-> marca redundante de pasado (verbal).

La verdad es que es una palabrita que se las trae verdad?

_______________________

>    Que tal David,
>
>    Disculpa que te moleste, yo solo estoy en esta lista
>    de observador. Podrias aclararme una duda? tienes
>    una idea del vocablo Oonoc? Onoc? cual es su significado?
>
>    Mande un mansaje a esta lista pero nunca recibi respuesta.
>
>    Saludos,
>
>                  Juan M
>


From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk  Thu Mar 29 08:04:58 2001
From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 08:04:58 GMT
Subject: Stress shifting suffixes
Message-ID: <THU.29.MAR.2001.080458.GMT.>

"David Sanchez" <davius_sanctex at terra.es> wrote:-
 > Most grammars of classical nahuatl accept that stress accent fall on the
 > penultimate vowel, althought this is not the case in modern dialects. ...

What tends to happen with the accent in modern dialects? I have seen Spanish
spellings with the accent on other syllables, e.g. "Tenochtitl?n". It could be
that sometimes, when Spanish-speakers try to pronounce a Nahuatl name, a
stress on a short vowel may tend to move to an adjacent long vowel. Spanish
does not have phonemic length of vowels, and an uneducated Spanish-speaker
might produce stress when trying to say a long vowel. And post-Conquest,
Spanishisms get into Nahuatl: e.g. I read once of Spanish {de} = "of" getting
into Nahuatl, and causing the mixed-language combination {din} = {de in}.
Citlalyani


From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Thu Mar 29 21:36:12 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 23:36:12 +0200
Subject: Stress shifting suffixes
Message-ID: <THU.29.MAR.2001.233612.0200.>

>What tends to happen with the accent in modern dialects?

For example the Orizaba dialect seems to have just reversed hierarchical rules
of classical nahuatl. This reversed order explains that tonalli is pronounced [?tonaLLi]
in Orizaba dialect and [to?naLLi] in classical nahuatl (according to most grammars).
Informally:

A) Rule of epentesis: in final position the sequences -VCC# are not allowed and
thus an epenthetic -i is added: chan + ABS = chan + tl > chan-tl-i.
B) Rule of accent: the stress fall in the penultimate vowel.

Orizaba dialect present application in order B-A, thus for example <?tonalli> is
stressed in 3st vowell from the end (not the second; surface form: tonalli [?tonaLLi]
phonological form: tonaltl / tonal.tl /):

0) tonal.tl
1) Assimilation (tl > l / l__#): tonal.l
2) Rule B: ?tonal.l
3) Rule A: ?tonal.l.i  and thus is pronounced [?tonaLLi]

But in classical nahuatl (as described in most grammars):

0) tonal.tl
1) Assimilation (tl > l / l__#): tonal.l
2) Rule A: tonal.li
3) Rule B: to?nal.l.i and thus is pronounced [to?naLLi]

My uncertainity is if it is thrue that rule A precedes rule B in classical nahuatl.
In my opinion written documents are insufficient by themselves to contradict
this fact.

Ma ximopapactzino



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From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Thu Mar 29 21:45:52 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 23:45:52 +0200
Subject: Stress shifting suffixes
Message-ID: <THU.29.MAR.2001.234552.0200.>

> I have seen Spanish spellings with the accent on other syllables, e.g.
> "Tenochtitl?n". It could be that sometimes, when Spanish-speakers try
> to pronounce a Nahuatl name, a stress on a short vowel may tend
> to move to an adjacent long vowel.

Certainly it is difficult for all native spanish speakers utter an unstressed
long vowel, this is a tendency in all romance languages (in italian all stressed
vowels automatically are long). Accentual pattern of latin also shows this
tendency.

> Spanishisms get into Nahuatl: e.g. I read once of Spanish {de} = "of"
> getting into Nahuatl, and causing the mixed-language combination {din} = {de in}.

The case of spanish "de" is surprising because it is a non-tonic particle!


Onpa citla:lyani
David S?nchez
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From campbel at indiana.edu  Fri Mar 30 04:05:26 2001
From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 23:05:26 -0500
Subject: Stress shifting suffixes
In-Reply-To: <001001c0b898$4a550700$311e523e@pc>
Message-ID: <THU.29.MAR.2001.230526.0500.>

Some quickie remarks on stress variability in modern Nahuatl:

  (I mark accent immediately after the vowel that it occurs on
   [e.g., a' = accented 'a'])

   Both San Miguel Canoa (Puebla) and Xaltipan (Tlaxcala) have stress
displacement one syllable to the left in the absolutive form of nouns;
obviously, this does not occur on words of less than three syllables.
  |8-)
Nouns which have absolutive forms ending in "-li" in "Classical" and many
other modern dialects not only shift stress one syllable to the left, but
they also drop the final "i":

                Canoa           Tlaxcala                        "Classical"

                tla'xcal        tla'xcal        tortilla        tlaxca'lli
                ca'xtol         ca'xtol         fifteen         caxto'lli
                ma'cuil         ma'cuil         five            macui'lli

Note, however, that while both Canoa and Tlaxcala both also shift stress
one syllable to the left in nouns which have absolutive forms ending in
"-tli", Canoa keeps the final vowel intact while Tlaxcala deletes it
(parallel to the treatment of nouns in "-li" in both dialects).

                a'moxtli        a'moxtl         book            amo'xtli
                i'chpochtli     i'chpochtl      girl            ichpochtli
                tzo'htzomahtli  tzo'htzomahtl   clothing        tzohtzoma'htli
                ma'htlactli     ma'htlactl      ten             mahtla'ctli

Thus, Tlaxcala maintains regular penultimate stress in these nouns,
but Canoa has the unusual (for Nahuatl) pattern of antepenult stress in
nouns ending in "-tli".  However, Tlaxcala "pays" for its regularity in
the treatment of stress:  notice that these particular nouns now end in
consonant clusters -- something that Nahuatl is said not to "like".
(Other dialects *do* develop some "unliked" consonant cluster, such as
"xnicma'ti", 'I don't know it' [San Agustin Oapan, Guerrero], but that's
another story.)

   When I find my notes on stress shift in Oapan, I'll get back to you.
Or maybe someone else can contribute these observations.....




   Michoacan seems to have "basically" penultimate stress, but surface forms
frequently show final stress due to deletions.

   quichi'hua           he does it
   quichi'c             he did it
     Comment:  The consonant following the stressed vowel is optionally
        deleted, resulting also in "quichi'ac", and further, the unstressed
        vowel following stressed vowel is deleted.  Past tense does not
        involve truncation of the stem; preterit singular forms are indicated
        by the "-c" suffix.

  Further examples:

   moca'hua             he remains
   moca'c               he remained
     Comment:  Derived from "moca'[hua]c"

   nicmela'hua          I straighten it
   nicmela'c            I straightened it


  Variable forms:

   nechi'lic            she said it to me
   nechi'c              she said it to me
     Comment:  Derived from "nechi'[li]c"

   cata'ya              he was
   cata'                he was
     Comment:  Also derived by deletion of post-stress consonant and vowel.

   cua'huil             tree
   cua'l                tree
     Comment:  Also derived by deletion of post-stress consonant and vowel.

   noxo'lol             my child
   noxo'l               my child
     Comment:  "noxo'[lo]l"


Joe Campbell


From davius_sanctex at terra.es  Fri Mar 30 15:39:57 2001
From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 17:39:57 +0200
Subject: Stress shifting suffixes
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.173957.0200.>

I think the more facts of the magnifical exposition of J. Campbell
can be satisfactorially explained by rules of epenthesis (Rule A),
and penultimate syllabe accent (Rule B).

Campbell, accept that in classical dialects the accent is always
on penultimate syllabe, this implies that Rule A precedes always
Rule B. But it is possible that in some contemporanial dialects of
classical dialect of Tenochtitlan the order of Rules was reversed ?
That is, if some modern dialects reflect that Rule B precedes Rule
A, is this a recent fact or may it to be an ancient fact?
________________________________________
Explaining Campell's data:

>                 Canoa           Tlaxcala
"Classical"
>
>                 tla'xcal        tla'xcal        tortilla        tlaxca'lli
>                 ca'xtol         ca'xtol         fifteen         caxto'lli
>                 ma'cuil         ma'cuil         five            macui'lli

0a) abstract phonological forms: /tlaxcal/, /caxtol/, /macuil/
0b) absolutive suffix for l-final forms: -? (none)
1) Rule A has the trivial efect (since the phonological forms already have
an acceptable surface form): <taxcal, caxtol, mauil>
2) Rule B produces trivially the correct accent: ['tlaS.kaL], ['kaS.toL] ...

>                 a'moxtli        a'moxtl         book            amo'xtli
>                 i'chpochtli     i'chpochtl      girl            ichpochtli
>                 tzo'htzomahtli  tzo'htzomahtl   clothing
tzohtzoma'htli
>                 ma'htlactli     ma'htlactl      ten
mahtla'ctli

Here there is a difference between San Miguel Canoa dialect and Tlaxcala
dialect, the second allowing more complex syllabic paterns at the end of
word.
But stress accent is equally well predicted by rules A and B, if we apply
first
rule B and then rule A.

As for the Michoacan dialects rules also predict correctly:
>
> a)    quichi'hua           he does it
> b)    quichi'c             he did it
>  c)   moca'hua             he remains
>  d)   moca'c               he remained

0) Abstract phonological forms: a) kichiwa, b) kichiak, c) mokawa & mokawak
1) Rule B: a) kichi'wa, b) kichi'ak, c) moka'wak
2) Rule A acts trivially, and has no effect.
3) Forms b) & d) undergoes an "apocope" and is reduced to b) kichi'k & d)
moka'k

The rest of "anomalous" examples (with respect "Classical nahuatl" accepted
forms),
are equally explained by the hierarchical application of rules in the order,
first B,
secondly A.

David S?nchez


From indus56 at telusplanet.net  Fri Mar 30 20:56:11 2001
From: indus56 at telusplanet.net (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 13:56:11 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl for marmot?
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.135611.0700.>

I'm assuming, given the wide range of territories that have been
occupied by speakers of Nahuatl, that there is a word for marmot.

Would anyone happen to know what that is?

I'm less sure that there are or were marmots around the Valley of Mexico
or on the slopes of the volcanoes. Might anyone have any idea?

Many thanks,
Paul Anderson


From jrader at Merriam-Webster.com  Fri Mar 30 22:31:04 2001
From: jrader at Merriam-Webster.com (Jim Rader)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 17:31:04 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl for marmot?
Message-ID: <FRI.30.MAR.2001.173104.0500.>

 > I'm assuming, given the wide range of territories that have been
 > occupied by speakers of Nahuatl, that there is a word for marmot.
 >
 > Would anyone happen to know what that is?
 >
 > I'm less sure that there are or were marmots around the Valley of Mexico
 > or on the slopes of the volcanoes. Might anyone have any idea?
 >

According to the usually authoritative _Walker's Mammals of the
World_, none of the 14 species of marmot, which include the
woodchuck or groundhog (Marmota monax) of the U.S., are found
in either the southwestern U.S. or Mexico. So it seems pretty
unlikely there was a Nahuatl word for them.
Jim Rader