From js9211 at csc.albany.edu Mon Feb 4 14:17:15 2002 From: js9211 at csc.albany.edu (SANCHEZ JOANNA M) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:17:15 -0500 Subject: Un recado se perdio Message-ID: Disculpame todos- pero alguien me mando un recado en espanol y se perdio sin que pudiera leerlo. Tenia algun attachment. Me interesa mucho y siempre quisiera saber que decia- me lo puede mandar de nuevo? Gracias. Joanna From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Mon Feb 4 17:11:18 2002 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:11:18 -0000 Subject: online Aztec king lists & histories In-Reply-To: <003201c1a37e$271e2ba0$545727c8@ATIANA> Message-ID: Please where on the WWW is a good online list and description of the Aztec emperors and their histories including dates? From liccuriel at hotmail.com Mon Feb 4 17:38:23 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:38:23 +0000 Subject: online Aztec king lists & histories Message-ID: I have this Document, that I can send you - of course if such is permitted by the policies of this nahuat-l group: "RELACIONES ORIGINALES DE CHALCO AMAQUEMECAN" Escritas por DON FRANCISCO DE SAN ANTÓN MUÑÓN CHIMALPAHIN CUAUHTLEHUANITZIN. PALEOGRAFIADAS Y TRADUCIDAS DEL NÁHUATL, CON UNA INTRODUCCIÓN DE S. RENDON. This document is in Word, has an extension of 238 p. and about 700 kb size. In Spanish. I contains the history, and dates (in both nahuatl calendar and Spanish calendar) of the Aztec people. Please confirm. Elisabeth Curiel >From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk >To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu >Subject: online Aztec king lists & histories >Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:11:18 -0000 > >Please where on the WWW is a good online list and description of >the Aztec emperors and their histories including dates? _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos es la manera más sencilla de compartir, editar e imprimir sus fotos favoritas. http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Feb 4 20:12:22 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 14:12:22 -0600 Subject: online Aztec king lists & histories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 05:38 PM 2/4/02 +0000, you wrote: >"RELACIONES ORIGINALES DE CHALCO AMAQUEMECAN" >Escritas por DON FRANCISCO DE SAN ANTÓN MUÑÓN CHIMALPAHIN >CUAUHTLEHUANITZIN. PALEOGRAFIADAS Y TRADUCIDAS DEL NÁHUATL, >CON UNA INTRODUCCIÓN DE S. RENDON. > >This document is in Word, has an extension of 238 p. and about 700 kb size. >In Spanish. Please do NOT send it to the list. It is too large and probably will be rejected by the server. If subscribers are interested they should contact you privately. J. F. Schwaller List Owner John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Feb 5 17:25:09 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:25:09 -0500 Subject: Follow-up questions Message-ID: Nahuatlahtos, I would like to know how in the Nahuatl dialect you know a person says 'thank you' and 'good-bye'. tlaxtlahui ihuan tottasqueh, Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu From swood at darkwing.uoregon.edu Tue Feb 5 19:50:20 2002 From: swood at darkwing.uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:50:20 -0800 Subject: Nahuatl documents, AGN Message-ID: I am wondering if anyone has any news about the digitization of Nahuatl documents (texts and images) at the AGN de Mexico? We have a group interested in collaborating in this, if our help would be desired. We would also help write for a FIDEMEXUSA grant and other grants. Thanks, Stephanie Wood University of Oregon swood at darkwing.uoregon.edu From liccuriel at hotmail.com Wed Feb 6 23:37:27 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:37:27 +0000 Subject: online Aztec king lists & histories Message-ID: Ms Consuelo: I have been gathering this material since many many years ago (1982 on), and have scanned and digitalized it by myself. Also, I have acquired them from Libraries -from Mazatlan, Mexico City, Guadalajara, Oaxaca, etc.- and also, from friends I met in Mexico City; maybe someone knows about some of them: Gutierre Tibon and Nikito Nipongo (a nickname of course) who used to write in Excelsior. Unfortunately, I stopped seeing them since 1988, when I had to move to another city. Some of my precious documents are not available in the Internet or any other place. Also, when I started all this, I used to spend my salary in rare beautiful documents, like a huge Borbonic Codex copy, and sort of that. By now I am planning to become rich and buy that american edition of the Florentine codex they are selling on line. Does someone in the group has it? Yes?? oh, can you please tell me if it is in Nahuatl and English? Is it worth the million hundred pesos it costs? And Consuelo, a good place to find this kind of material historical material is http://cervantesvirtual.com. I warn you that if you don't speak Spanish, you may get lost there, since the designing of the site is really clumsy, but the content is the best in the net by far. Those guys are really good. Greetings Elisabeth Curiel AKA "Lisita" (Ok guys, I know someone of you doesn't like my nickname, that's because you lack sense of humor) >From: Consuelo Collard >To: "'Elisabeth Curiel'" >Subject: RE: online Aztec king lists & histories >Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:37:49 -0800 > >Ms. Curiel; > >Thank you very much for your prompt response to my request. I assure you I >am interested in the document only for personal study and investigation, >and >really appreciate your generous help. > >I'd like to ask you if you created the document in word yourself, or >obtained it on line, and if so, could you let me know the website? I have >been searching for websites that contain such historical documents to no >avail. It seems my only sources are the local public library, which has >very limited resources on this subject, and the libraries in the >Universities in the area, which I intend to visit once I exhaust what the >public library has to offer. > >I will appreciate any information you may be able to offer. Thanks again. > >Consuelo Collard >Management Analyst >Social Services Agency >County of Santa Clara > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Elisabeth Curiel [mailto:liccuriel at hotmail.com] >Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 6:03 PM >To: Consuelo.Collard at ssa.co.santa-clara.ca.us >Subject: RE: online Aztec king lists & histories > > >Hello: > >Here I am sending the document. Please use it only for personal >investigation. > > >From: Consuelo Collard > >To: "'Elisabeth Curiel'" > >Subject: RE: online Aztec king lists & histories > >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:45:19 -0800 > > > >Ms. Curiel; > > > >I would be very interested in receiving a copy of the document you >mention > >in your message. > > > >Thank you, > > > >Consuelo Collard > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Elisabeth Curiel [mailto:liccuriel at hotmail.com] > >Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 9:38 AM > >To: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk > >Cc: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu > >Subject: Re: online Aztec king lists & histories > > > > > >I have this Document, that I can send you - of course if such is >permitted > >by the policies of this nahuat-l group: > > > >"RELACIONES ORIGINALES DE CHALCO AMAQUEMECAN" > >Escritas por DON FRANCISCO DE SAN ANTÓN MUÑÓN CHIMALPAHIN > >CUAUHTLEHUANITZIN. > > > >PALEOGRAFIADAS Y TRADUCIDAS DEL NÁHUATL, > >CON UNA INTRODUCCIÓN DE S. RENDON. > > > >This document is in Word, has an extension of 238 p. and about 700 kb >size. > > > >In Spanish. > > > >I contains the history, and dates (in both nahuatl calendar and Spanish > >calendar) of the Aztec people. > > > >Please confirm. > > > >Elisabeth Curiel > > > > > > >From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk > > >To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu > > >Subject: online Aztec king lists & histories > > >Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:11:18 -0000 > > > > > >Please where on the WWW is a good online list and description of > > >the Aztec emperors and their histories including dates? > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >MSN Photos es la manera más sencilla de compartir, editar e imprimir sus > >fotos favoritas. http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN Photos es la manera más sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus fotos: >http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx _________________________________________________________________ Con MSN Hotmail súmese al servicio de correo electrónico más grande del mundo. http://www.hotmail.com/ES From EAF61862 at mediaone.net Thu Feb 7 00:47:23 2002 From: EAF61862 at mediaone.net (Eric Fierro) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:47:23 -0800 Subject: La Piedra Del Sol Message-ID: Does anyone know where I can get a copy of La piedra Del Sol by Raul Noriega? From cipactonal at starmedia.com Thu Feb 7 20:38:32 2002 From: cipactonal at starmedia.com (cipactonal at starmedia.com) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:38:32 EST Subject: Termina servicio. Message-ID: Listeros: El anyo pasado se comenzo a dar un servicio de traduccion de documentos en nahuatl al espanyol para las comunidades campesinas. Hoy termina ese servicio. Bajo los argumentos de que traducir esos documentos es darle "demasiada" importancia al nahuatl, y que el Archivo General de la Nacion, Mexico, no es una institucion que se dedique a estudios linguisticos, la labor se acaba. Sin embargo continua la busqueda de documentos en nahuatl del fondo documental Tierras. Esa busqueda tiene como objtivo digitalizar dicho material para ponerlo a dispisicion de los investigadores. Pongo a su disposicion mis servicios para traducir documentos nahuatl-español,claro, cobrando los respectivos honorarios. Saludos a todos. Ignacio Silva. cipactonal at starmedia.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Obtén gratis tu cuenta de correo en StarMedia Email. ¡Regístrate hoy mismo!. http://www.starmedia.com/email ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Feb 8 18:22:02 2002 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:22:02 -0600 Subject: Un toponimo tlaxcalteco Message-ID: Estimados listeros: En el fragmento 5 del Codice de Huamantla (BNAH 35-2) aparece la glosa "nicah Antlacaltepech Auh cen [borrado]". Carmen Aguilera, en su edicion de este manuscrito (1984), transcribe y traduce el toponimo asi: "Atlancatepec, 'Lugar del cerro donde termina o esta el agua'". No entiendo donde ella ve la idea de "terminar". Parece que deriva el verbo "estar" en su traducción de la silaba "ca", pero no he visto semejante construccion en otros toponimos. Tengo la tentacion de agregar una "L" y reconstruir la palabra como "Atlancaltepec", de esta manera: A:(TL) sustantivo "agua" - TLAN posposición "debajo de"/"junto a"/"entre"/"en" - CAL(LI) sustantivo "casa" - TE:PE(TL) sustantivo "cerro" - C(O)posposición: "en"/"dentro"/"sobre". De esta manera el significado podría ser "sobre el cerro de la casa, junto al agua". ?Que piensan ustedes? Gracias de antemano por su ayuda, David Wright P.D. En muchas de las glosas aparece la variante "nicah" para el adverbio locativo NICA:N. ?Alguien ha visto esto en otros documentos, de la región de Tlaxcala u otra? El hecho de que Huamantla haya sido un pueblo otomi quizá tenga que ver con algunas de las variantes ortográficas. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Feb 8 18:47:15 2002 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:47:15 -0600 Subject: Atlancaltepec Message-ID: Listeros: Tengo una aclaracion sobre el mensaje que acabo de enviar: vi otra vez el facsimil del Codice de Huamantla, y la "L" de ANTLACALTEPECH ya esta ahi; no hace falta restituirla. Me confundi viendo la transcripcion de Aguilera. Las dos preguntas que les hice no cambian; todavia tengo las mismas dudas. David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Feb 9 04:04:41 2002 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 23:04:41 -0500 Subject: Un toponimo tlaxcalteco In-Reply-To: <001e01c1b0cd$846859a0$acbee994@dcwright> Message-ID: David, No puedo evaluar el analisis total de "Antlacaltepech", pero si' puedo aclarar de do'nde Carmen saca la idea de 'terminar'. "tlan" es la forma que toma la rai'z "tlami" 'terminar' en el prete'rito: tlami se acaba (o)-tlan se acabo' De "tlami" viene "tlan-ca-yotl" 'lo completo'. Y, por supuesto, "ah-tlan-ca-yotl" 'lo incompleto' Se escribe igual "atlancayotl" 'lo marino', pero es "a:-tlan-ca-yotl" (con a:-tl y con la posposicio'n -tlan), no "ah-...". Tocante a "nicah" por "nican", la pe'rdida de 'n' final es comu'n en los diccionarios de Molina, en el Co'dice Florentino, y en el habla de hoy en di'a. No creo que hay que buscarle el origen en el otomi'. (Ocurre en le habla de Guerrero, Morelos, etc.). Saludos, Joe On Fri, 8 Feb 2002, David Wright wrote: > En el fragmento 5 del Codice de Huamantla (BNAH 35-2) aparece la glosa > "nicah Antlacaltepech Auh cen [borrado]". Carmen Aguilera, en su edicion > de este manuscrito (1984), transcribe y traduce el toponimo asi: > "Atlancatepec, 'Lugar del cerro donde termina o esta el agua'". No > entiendo donde ella ve la idea de "terminar". Parece que deriva el verbo > "estar" en su traducción de la silaba "ca", pero no he visto semejante > construccion en otros toponimos. Tengo la tentacion de agregar una "L" y > reconstruir la palabra como "Atlancaltepec", de esta manera: A:(TL) > sustantivo "agua" - TLAN posposición "debajo de"/"junto a"/"entre"/"en" > - CAL(LI) sustantivo "casa" - TE:PE(TL) sustantivo "cerro" - > C(O)posposición: "en"/"dentro"/"sobre". De esta manera el significado > podría ser "sobre el cerro de la casa, junto al agua". > P.D. En muchas de las glosas aparece la variante "nicah" para el > adverbio locativo NICA:N. ?Alguien ha visto esto en otros documentos, de > la región de Tlaxcala u otra? El hecho de que Huamantla haya sido un > pueblo otomi quizá tenga que ver con algunas de las variantes > ortográficas. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu Fri Feb 8 21:11:19 2002 From: ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu (Kevin P Smith) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:11:19 -0800 Subject: tetlahuehuequiti Message-ID: Dear Nahuatlatos, Don Pedro Tetlahuehuetzquititzin was apparently the eldest son of Nezahualpilli, excepting the one the tlatoani had executed for adultery, yet he was the last of the legitimate heirs to rule. He finally attained the rulership in 1531 or 1532, replacing the youngest son, Yoyontzin. My question is: Could his name be an indication of his shortcomings as a possible ruler? Molina defines Tetlahuehuetzquiti as "chocorrero, truchan, juglar" and Andersen and Dibble translate it as "buffoon" in the FC. Just how seriously were sardonic nicknames assigned? And if it was a serious appelation, why would he not change it in maturity? Thanks in advance for any ideas or information on Aztec naming among the pipiltin. Best, -- Kevin Paul Smith ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu From notoca at hotmail.com Sat Feb 9 14:47:05 2002 From: notoca at hotmail.com (Chichiltic Coyotl) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:47:05 +0800 Subject: Un toponimo tlaxcalteco Message-ID: Hi I have a couple of questions / queries re: tlan in this post: Would Carman be using tlan (derived from tlami). Tlami meaning to come to an end, to be consumed, to finish?? Also, I was wondering about your usage/translation of -tlan David. Firstly, would this not be an unusual position to place a locative suffix for a place name. Locative suffixes usually go at the end of compounds(from what I've learnt and seen - my experience is limited and I could be wrong)?? However, the end of this compound would end up with two locative suffixes, -c being the second. This could suggest that a locative suffix -tlan would not be part of the structure of this compound?? Secondly, regarding your translation of -tlan "debajo de"/"junto a"/"entre"/"en". Would this suffix usage (for place names) usually require the ligature -ti-? There is another -tla:n suffix meaning "place of, at". This one has a long vowel length. I still think it is out of place??? Is my understanding of this correct??? >From: David Wright >Carmen Aguilera, en su edicion de este manuscrito (1984), transcribe y >traduce el toponimo asi: "Atlancatepec, 'Lugar del cerro donde termina o >esta el agua'". No entiendo donde ella ve la idea de "terminar". como "Atlancaltepec", de esta manera: A:(TL) sustantivo "agua" - TLAN posposici�n "debajo de"/"junto a"/"entre"/"en" - CAL(LI) sustantivo "casa" - TE:PE(TL) sustantivo "cerro" - C(O)posposici�n: "en"/"dentro"/"sobre". De esta manera el significado podr�a ser "sobre el cerro de la casa, junto al agua". > >?Que piensan ustedes? > >Gracias de antemano por su ayuda, > >David Wright > >P.D. En muchas de las glosas aparece la variante "nicah" para el adverbio >locativo NICA:N. ?Alguien ha visto esto en otros documentos, de la regi�n >de Tlaxcala u otra? El hecho de que Huamantla haya sido un pueblo otomi >quiz� tenga que ver con algunas de las variantes ortogr�ficas. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Feb 9 18:49:55 2002 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:49:55 -0600 Subject: Toponimo tlaxcalteco Message-ID: Estimados Sergio y Chichiltic Coyotl: Muchas gracias por sus sugerencias. No habia pensado en TLAMI, que me parece más adecuado que TLA:N, a menos que se tratara de un toponimo doble, A:TLA:N CALTE:PEC, que tal vez escrito asi (con espacio, que no hay en la glosa original) se veria menos extrano. Sobre -TLAN y -TLA:N, tiene razón Ch. C.; debi de haber puesto -TLA:N, que no tiene el significado de "debajo de". Lo peor es que hace poco me habia fijado en el asunto y habia elaborado unas fichas para tener los datos a la mano; luego no las vi con detenimiento, a pesar de que las tenia a la vista cuando redacte mi pregunta. Gracias por llamarme la atencion sobre este descuido. Acabo de mejorar las fichas mencionadas, y me gustaria compartir lo que encontre con los demas; por eso contesto a la lista en general. He visto este tema antes en NAHUAT-L, pero tengo dos o tres cositas que agregar. En el diccionario analitico de Karttunen (pp. 282, 283) encontramos para -TLAN (con ligadura -TI-) las equivalencias "below", "next to (the base of)", "among" y, citando a Carochi, "junto a", "entre", "debajo de" y "en". Para -TLA:N (sin -TI-) encontramos "place of" y "at", mas "junto" (de Carochi) y "entre" (de Tetelcingo). En el texto Foundation Course in Nahuatl grammar de Campbell y Karttunen, se contradice el diccionario de Karttunen, traduciendo -TLAN (con -TI-) como "near" y "among", -TLA:N (sin -TI-) como "below" y "next to the base of" (vol. II, p. 18). Para asegurarme de que la contradiccion en el Foundation Course era, como parecia, un simple descuido, consulte a Carochi (f. 19r; p. 80 en la ed. de Lockhart de 2001); ahi se deja claro que -TLAN (con -TI-) tiene el significado de "debajo de"; se traduce esta posposicion con cinco palabras latinas: "apud" (junto a/cerca de/ante), "iuxta" (cerca/junto), "inter" (entre/en/enmedio de), "infra" (debajo de) e "in" (en), y en los ejemplos se usan las equivalencias castellanas "junto a", "entre" y "debajo de". Para -TLA:N (sin -TI-, aunque no dice que la vocal es larga hasta despues, en la f. 56r y v) Carochi pone "en", "junto a", "entre" y "a". Es evidente que ambas posposiciones tienen significados que se traslapan; la diferencia mas notable es que una, -TLAN (con -TI-) incluye el significado de relacion espacial "debajo de", y se relaciona con el adverbio TLANI, "abajo o debajo" (Molina 1571: II, f. 129r). Carochi, particularmente, nos proporciona una lista amplia de alternativas de donde escoger, segun los requerimientos del contexto, cuando traducimos palabras con estas dos posposiciones al castellano: -TLAN (con -TI-) ante, cerca de, debajo de, en, en medio de, entre, junto a -TLA:N (sin -TI-) a, en, entre, junto a Saludos, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Feb 9 22:46:50 2002 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 17:46:50 -0500 Subject: Un toponimo tlaxcalteco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Chichiltic Coyotzin, I share your expectation about the location of locative suffixes, but they can surprise us. One way that they do the unexpected is by really acting like nouns. For example, in a modern dialect that I can't remember right now, the postposition "-ican" (as in "icampa nocal" 'behind my house') is verbed on to supply the verb "icanhuia" -- so "antechicanhuia" means 'y'all follow us [supply us with "behind"]. From the Florentine Codex come the following: te-a-tlan-huia he drowns people (he supplies people with a water place) te-a-tlan-mictia-ya she drowned people (using "atlan" as an adverb) o-a-tlan-papacho-loh-queh they were submerged repeatedly in water (adverb use again) m[o]-a-tlan-huih-queh they fell into water (they supplied themselves with a water place) qui-meca-ti-tlan-tlalia they place it within ropes (apparently "that other" -tla:n) Saludos, Joe p.s. I'm sure that someone will come up with examples of two locative suffixes -- besides "icampa nocal" (above): n[o]-ican-pa behind me no my ican behind pa towards > > Also, I was wondering about your usage/translation of -tlan David. Firstly, > would this not be an unusual position to place a locative suffix for a place > name. Locative suffixes usually go at the end of compounds(from what I've > learnt and seen - my experience is limited and I could be wrong)?? However, > the end of this compound would end up with two locative suffixes, -c being > the second. This could suggest that a locative suffix -tlan would not be > part of the structure of this compound?? > From mdmorris at indiana.edu Sun Feb 10 01:35:12 2002 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 20:35:12 -0500 Subject: Toponimo tlaxcalteco In-Reply-To: <00bc01c1b19a$94e06b60$61c841c8@dcwright> Message-ID: Disculpe que olvido precisamente donde estamos en esta linea, pero Atlangatepec es efectivamente donde nace el rio Zahuapan lo que es uno de los afluyentes del rio Atoyac-rio Balsas. Hoy en dia hay una presa alli que abasta un gran parte del territorio Tlaxcalteca. A mano, no puedo citar otro ejemplo de nicah, pero creo que moztla nozo huiptla te enviare otras muestras, y no es de maravillar como un tlaxcalteca es capaz de hacer cualquiere cosa con un idioma y mas cuando recuerdas el recto juicio que planteo Motolinia acerca de los Otomi :) ye nitzinquiza, miec tzontecone mitzmaca Mark Morris P.S. No se David cuanto de documentos en nahuatl tengo de Atlangatepec, HUamantla y Soltepec, pero los que tengo son tuyos si los quieres. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Feb 10 19:25:57 2002 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:25:57 -0600 Subject: ticaltitzintizocac Message-ID: Muchas gracias a Mark y Joe por sus comentarios utilisimos. Ya casi termine de analizar y traducir las 25 glosas legibles o semilegibles en nahuatl del Codice de Huamantla y las 22 glosas en el mismo idioma del Codice de Huichapan. Para poderlo hacer pase alrededor de 400 horas ensenandome la fonologia, morfologia y sintaxis del nahuatl novohispano, pero como pueden ver, todavia me hace falta mucha practica. La mayor parte de las glosas se dejaron leer sin problemas; los amables listeros ya me ayudaron con una de las mas problematicas. Solo me queda una glosa sin resolver. Si alguien de la lista me puede ayudar, podre pasar tranquilamente a la siguiente fase de mi proyecto. Primero, el contexto: en la f. 26r (p. 51) del Codice de Huichapan, arriba de la fecha 3 Casa (sic pro 2 Casa), 1481, hay una pintura de un bulto mortuorio en una silla con respaldo cubierto de piel de jaguar; de la cabeza del bulto sale un chorro de agua: esto obviamente significa la muerte del tlatoani mexica Axayacatl, "cara de agua", identificado en la glosa otomi como Ehmudehe, escrita en otras partes del ms. Ehmidehe, con identico significado: "cara de agua". Al lado hay otro senor en el mismo tipo de asiento, con un grafema antroponimico enfrente de la cara: dos circulos concentricos rodeados por muchos puntitos negros. Es evidente que se trata de la ascension al poder de "Tizoc" (o TEZOC, atendiendo a la equivalencia de Molina de "sangrador"), sucesor de Axayacatl en el trono de Tenochtitlan. En lugar del signo antroponimico usual, una pierna con puntitos, se pinto lo que parece un agujero con puntitos. La glosa alfabetica al lado del grafema antroponimico dice: TICALTITZINTIZOCAC (la "z" en la penultima silaba es una cedilla en el ms.) Despues de varias horas de busqueda no he podido leer esta glosa. Solo veo dos cosas: (1) el "pseudosufijo" honorifico/afectivo TZIN(TLI) y (2) la palabra TEZOC, escrita con "i" en lugar de "e", relacionada con el verbo ZO:, "agujerarse para sangrar". No tengo idea de lo que pudieran significar las silabas TICALTI... ni tampoco la terminacion ...AC. No se si alguien tiene alguna sugerencia. Muchas gracias por su paciencia. Saludos, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdmorris at indiana.edu Sun Feb 10 23:08:10 2002 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:08:10 -0500 Subject: ticaltitzintizocac In-Reply-To: <003b01c1b268$c7a97900$bfc841c8@dcwright> Message-ID: Again confessing not having paid attention, I just noticed that the following very well designed web site has a good bit of information about Mexica rulers and such: http://www.arts-history.mx I also would like to mention that Luis Reyes Garcia's edition of Juan Bautista's Anales has been published by CIESAS. sincerely, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Feb 11 19:12:25 2002 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:12:25 -0600 Subject: Ticaltitzintizocac Message-ID: Estimados Mark y Sergio: Gracias por su apoyo continuo y sus sugerencias (en la lista y fuera de ella) sobre la glosa TICALTITZINTIZOCAC en el Codice de Huichapan. Despues de darle muchas vueltas al asunto, me parece que la sugerencia de ustedes, de que la solucion podria ser con el verbo CALTIA:, es la mejor opcion. La unica forma inflexionada que funciona para mi, sin tomar demasiadas libertades con su forma, es esta: TICCALTIH TZI:NTI (TE)ZO:CAC TICCALTIH (TI prefijo de sujeto 2a. persona singular + C prefijo de objeto directo 3a. persona singular + CALTI raiz preterita del verbo clase 3 CALTIA: "edificar casa para alguien" + H sufijo preterito clase 3) "tu le edificaste una casa" (me hubiera gustado mas con "nosotros", pero tendria que ser TICCALTIHQUE) TZI:NTI (3a. persona singular/plural presente de TZI:NTI, "tener comienzo"): "tiene comienzo"; si tomo la libertad de "restituir" un sufijo preterito que no esta en la glosa, puede ser TZI:NTIC, "él tuvo comienzo") TEZO: TEZO:C y TEZO:ANI son sustantivos para "sangrador", según Molina; el morfema basico aquí es ZO: "sangrarse", por lo que no es indispensable agregar la silaba TE. (La justificacion para agregarla seria que se haya asimilado por el "traslape" con la silaba TI antecedente, o por descuido a la hora de redactar, pero aqui probablemente violo el principio de fray Guillermo de Occam.) Todo esto se relaciona evidentemente con las etimologias mas aceptadas del nombre del tlatoani mexica Tizoc y con los diferentes grafemas pictoricos antroponimicos que se usan en los codices para expresarlo. Ahora viene la mosca en la sopa: todavia no se que hacer con las dos letras AC al final de la glosa. Si alguien ve algun error, me encantaria saberlo. Si tienen sugerencias adicionales, estas seran bienvenidas y agradecidas. Lo mas probable es que mi lectura este equivocada, pero tal vez tenga alguna aproximacion con la idea que tuvo en su cabeza el glosista del codice. Saludos, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From malinal at evhr.net Sun Feb 10 09:57:15 2002 From: malinal at evhr.net (Alexis Wimmer) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:57:15 +0100 Subject: Ticaltitzintizocac Message-ID: No conosco el Codice de Huichapan y no sé en cual modo ha costumbre de transcribir el nahuatl. Pero sin buscar formas verbales en esta glosa se puede articularla altramente. TICALTITZINTIZOCAC = TICAL TITZIN TIZOCAC TICAL tu eres su casa (T(i) prefijo de sujeto 2a. persona singular + I:CAL) TITZIN tu eres su comienzo TIZOCAC tu eres sus sandalias (de palma). Este ultimo no esta bien claro. Debe derivar de CAC-TLI (I:CAC, su sandalia) pero ZOCACTLI no esta atestado, pudiera venir de ZO:CACTLI, con ZO: que se encontra en ZO:TO:LIN, ZO:YA:TL, palma. Saludos. Alexis Wimmer http://www.ifrance.com/nahuatl ----- Original Message ----- From: David Wright To: Nahuat-l (mensajes) Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 8:12 PM Subject: Ticaltitzintizocac Estimados Mark y Sergio: Gracias por su apoyo continuo y sus sugerencias (en la lista y fuera de ella) sobre la glosa TICALTITZINTIZOCAC en el Codice de Huichapan. Despues de darle muchas vueltas al asunto, me parece que la sugerencia de ustedes, de que la solucion podria ser con el verbo CALTIA:, es la mejor opcion. La unica forma inflexionada que funciona para mi, sin tomar demasiadas libertades con su forma, es esta: TICCALTIH TZI:NTI (TE)ZO:CAC TICCALTIH (TI prefijo de sujeto 2a. persona singular + C prefijo de objeto directo 3a. persona singular + CALTI raiz preterita del verbo clase 3 CALTIA: "edificar casa para alguien" + H sufijo preterito clase 3) "tu le edificaste una casa" (me hubiera gustado mas con "nosotros", pero tendria que ser TICCALTIHQUE) TZI:NTI (3a. persona singular/plural presente de TZI:NTI, "tener comienzo"): "tiene comienzo"; si tomo la libertad de "restituir" un sufijo preterito que no esta en la glosa, puede ser TZI:NTIC, "él tuvo comienzo") TEZO: TEZO:C y TEZO:ANI son sustantivos para "sangrador", según Molina; el morfema basico aquí es ZO: "sangrarse", por lo que no es indispensable agregar la silaba TE. (La justificacion para agregarla seria que se haya asimilado por el "traslape" con la silaba TI antecedente, o por descuido a la hora de redactar, pero aqui probablemente violo el principio de fray Guillermo de Occam.) Todo esto se relaciona evidentemente con las etimologias mas aceptadas del nombre del tlatoani mexica Tizoc y con los diferentes grafemas pictoricos antroponimicos que se usan en los codices para expresarlo. Ahora viene la mosca en la sopa: todavia no se que hacer con las dos letras AC al final de la glosa. Si alguien ve algun error, me encantaria saberlo. Si tienen sugerencias adicionales, estas seran bienvenidas y agradecidas. Lo mas probable es que mi lectura este equivocada, pero tal vez tenga alguna aproximacion con la idea que tuvo en su cabeza el glosista del codice. Saludos, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MPSpillers at aol.com Tue Feb 12 04:47:38 2002 From: MPSpillers at aol.com (MPSpillers at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:47:38 EST Subject: digest/unsubscribe? Message-ID: Hello, Can someone let me know how to switch to receiving the "digest" version of this newsgroup, or how to unsubscribe entirely? Thanks, MPS From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at Tue Feb 12 19:07:02 2002 From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:07:02 +0100 Subject: Cultural Change Confereence Vienna June 2002: Abstracts Message-ID: Conference "Cultural Change in 16th Century Mexico " (Goettweig - Vienna, June 6 - 9, 2002) Participants and abstracts: http://www.univie.ac.at/meso/conference/abstracts.htm (submission deadline February 15, 2002) Workshop on Nahua codices (Vienna, June 10 - 13): http://www.univie.ac.at/meso/conference/workshop.htm For more information please see our website or contact me via e-mail. With best regards, Juergen Stowasser -- Juergen Stowasser Burggasse 114/2/8 A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a Austria tel: 01/ 524 54 60 v 0676/ 398 66 79 http://www.univie.ac.at/meso -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Feb 15 13:04:20 2002 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:04:20 -0500 Subject: ixtlahua/debt Message-ID: In Estudios de cultura nahuatl 32 Ulrich Köhler takes issue with the concept of nextlahualiztli 'sacrifice' as literally debt-repayment, despite its obvious derivation from the verb ixtlahua. He is exercised about this and states that , "this article is written in English, because most of the erroneous recent statements on an alleged Aztec debt-repayment to their gods have been published in that language. Hopefully, further diffusion of this nonsense can still be stopped." The main targets of K's criticism are elaborated hypotheses about Aztec belief systems, but he traces the roots of these hypotheses back to what he believes are etymological misunderstandings, particularly a mistranslation by Simeon of what Molina meant by "pagar lo que se debe." K feels that Dibble and Anderson misrepresented the sense of nextlahualiztli in their English translation of the Florentine Codex and that we English speakers have all followed D&A down the primrose path first blazed by Simeon. K's arguments are well worth examining. If they have merit, interpretations of blood sacrifice as debt-repayment should be reined back. It would be good to get a list from Joe of contexts in which ixtlahua is used in order to help evaluate K.'s criticism. Fran Karttunen From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Feb 15 13:31:19 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:31:19 -0500 Subject: ixtlilli In-Reply-To: <200202151305.g1FD55g02241@ns1.nantucket.net> Message-ID: Does anyone recognize as a particular substance? I do not have the word in my database. tlaxtlahui, Michael McCafferty From liccuriel at hotmail.com Fri Feb 15 16:30:08 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:30:08 +0000 Subject: ixtlilli Message-ID: Hello Michael: I don't know the context of what you read, but "ixtlilli", if we talk of a "substance" is probably a compound of ixtli = face tlilli = black color some face blackening. Elisabeth Curiel >From: Michael Mccafferty >To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu >Subject: Re: ixtlilli >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:31:19 -0500 (EST) > > >Does anyone recognize as a particular substance? I do not have >the word in my database. > > >tlaxtlahui, > >Michael McCafferty > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos es la manera más sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus fotos: http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Feb 15 17:25:16 2002 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:25:16 -0500 Subject: ixtlahua/debt In-Reply-To: <200202151305.g1FD55g02241@ns1.nantucket.net> Message-ID: Fran, The first part is just a glossary of words from the FC when "ixtla:hui" has been identified so far *and* the English gloss is already entered. The second part (after '*****') is a concordance of words which contain identified "ixtla:hui", regardless of whether they have English glosses. Best regards, Joe p.s. Oops! The version of the vocabulary includes even words without English glosses...... ixtla:hui*** [i]xtlahua , mo-. ; his debt is paid; it is paid; it is repaid. . [i]xtlahua , omo-. . . [i]xtlahua , tla-. he pays his debt. . [i]xtlahual , ine-. his offering. . [i]xtlahual , inne-. their offering. . [i]xtlahualiztli , ne-. debt-payment; debt-paying; debt payment; payment of a debt; act of paying a debt. . [i]xtlahualli , ne-. ; debt-payment; debt payment; offering. . [i]xtlahualoya , ne-. there was paying of the debt. . [i]xtlahualoya , onne-. there was paying of the debt. . [i]xtlahualti , ne-. . . [i]xtlahuaya , mo-. ; it was repaid; it was recompensed. . [i]xtlahuaya , ontla-. . . [i]xtlahuazque , tla-. they will be in debt, they will pay. . [i]xtlahuili , quintla-. . . [i]xtlauh , ohmo-. it was repaid. . [i]xtlauh , ommo-. a debt was repaid. . [i]xtlauh , tla-. he paid his debt. . [i]xtlauhtihui , hualmo-. they go paying a debt. . ixtlahua , con-. it meets the obligations of it. . ixtlahui. it is satisfied, it is complied with; it is satified. . ixtlauh , o-. it was satisfied, it was fulfilled. . ixtlauh , on-. it was repaid. . ixtlauhto. . . tlaxtlahua. he pays his debt. . tlazonextlahualti. precious [blood-]offerings. . ********************* ixtla:hui 1. *conixtlahua*. auh zatepan imellel onquizaz achitzinca, onmitotizque, ontlatotonizque, in xochitl, in iyetl, in tilmatli, in maxtlatl, inic conixtlahua, cohuayotl, ontlayolpachihuitia, inic amo itolozque, ca zan moyolitlacoa, ahtlahuelmati. and after they had rejoiced for a little while, they would be provided with dancing, and they would set out in the sun for them the flowers, the tobacco, the capes, and the breech clouts, in order to meet the obligations of banqueting, lest it be said [of the host] that the guests were slighted and found discontent there. (b.4 f.11 c.37 p.122) 2. *hualmo[i]xtlauhtihui*. in izquican tehtzacualli, zan onca hualmoxtlauhtihui, huallamaceuhtiya, in ixtlahuacan: inic huallacia itziocan, oc oncan motlalia, wherever there was a pyramid place, there they went to pay their debt, to perform penances, at places where debts were paid, until they reached itziocan, where they stopped. (b.9 f.3 c.6 p.31) 3. *ine[i]xtlahual*. oncan contecpana in inextlahual, in itech pohui tlalli, quitoaya tlalteuctli: ihuan ce coatl, in yehuatl otli, ihuan tlacotzontli, zacatzontli. there they placed in order the [paper] offerings which pertained to the earth [god], whom they called tlaltecutli; and one serpent the one [who was] the way; and tlacotzontli [and] �acatzontli. (b.9 f.1 c.3 p.10) 4. *inne[i]xtlahual*. in aquin inhuicpa monetoltia: in quinquentiz quintlaquentiz, quinchichihuilia in innextlahual, in cihuatetehuitl amatl, tlaoolxahualli oolpeyahuac, one who made a vow to them that he would cover and wrap them, adorned their offerings, the paper banners of the goddesses painted and spattered with liquid rubber. (b.4 f.10 c.33 p.107) 5. *inne[i]xtlahual*. auh in ye iuhqui, in omochi centecpanque in innextlahual ithualnepantla; niman ye ic calaqui in inchan, ixpan moquetza in tletl: and when this was done, when all their offerings were arranged together in the middle of the courtyard, thereupon they entered their home [and] stood before the fire. (b.9 f.1 c.3 p.10) 6. *ixtlahui*. ca nican popohui ixtlahui, in nanyotl, in tayotl, here have been devoted, have been satisfied motherhood, fatherhood. (b.3 f.3 c.ap1 p.42) 7. *ixtlahui*. ma popohui, ma ixtlahui in mihiyotzin, in motlatoltzin: may thy spirit, thy word be regarded; may they be satisfied. (b.6 f.4 c.9 p.42) 8. *ixtlahui*. yece ic popohui, ic ixtlahui in nayotl, in tayotl: however, thereby the motherhood, the fatherhood is satisfied, is complied with. (b.6 f.5 c.10 p.54) 9. *ixtlahui*. manozo popohui, ma ixtlahui in ihiyotzin in itlatoltzin, in yehuatl tloque nahuaque: may the spirit, the words of the lord of the near, of the nigh, be fulfilled, be complied with. (b.6 f.5 c.12 p.61) 10. *ixtlahui*. auh ma ixtlahui in intlatol in ahuaque, in tepehuaque, and may the words of those of the city be complied with. (b.6 f.5 c.12 p.61) 11. *ixtlahui*. in axcan ma popohui, ma ixtlahui in ihiyotzin toteucyo: now may the inspiration of our lord be complied with; may it be satisfied. (b.6 f.13 c.27 p.154) 12. *ixtlauhto*. ma cana ixtlauhto, popouhto: in inchoquiz, in intlaocol, in motechiuhcahuan, in huehuetque: in nican ic mitzapana, ic mitzquimiloa: o that somewhere the tears, the pity of thy elders, the old ones, may go as reward and recompense, to gird and clothe thee. (b.4 f.6 c.17 p.62) 13. *mo[i]xtlahua*. yehuatl, inic tepiqui, inic moxtlahua, inic quineltilia innetol. this one therefore formed the tepicme; thus he paid his debt; thus he fulfilled his vow. (b.1 f.3 c.21 p.49) 14. *mo[i]xtlahua*. auh in axcan ca ayamo cempolihui, noma cequinti, moxtlahua tepeticpac: . and today it is not completely uprooted; even now some pay their debts on mountain tops. (b.1 f.5 c.Ap p.74) 15. *mo[i]xtlahua*. in ihcuac in oacic campa tepetitech tlamatiuh niman ic oncan moxtlahua, when he reached whatsoever mountain he was to perform his due upon, then and there he paid his debt [of sacrifice]. (b.8 f.5 c.apa p.81) 16. *mo[i]xtlahua*. auh in oconcencauhque, niman ye ic moxtlahua, in yohualnepantla: and when they had prepared [the papers], thereupon the debt [to the gods] was paid at midnight. (b.9 f.1 c.3 p.10) 17. *mo[i]xtlahua*. in izquipa moxtlahua zan mochipa conquentia. as often as the debt was paid, they always covered [the canes]. (b.9 f.1 c.3 p.10) 18. *mo[i]xtlahua*. niman ye ic moxtlahua in yoalnepantla: thereupon the debt was paid at midnight. (b.9 f.3 c.6 p.27) 19. *mo[i]xtlahua*. auh in oacic yoalli xelihui, in ye huel yoalnepantla: in yehuatl tecoanotza: niman ye ic moxtlahua, and when the division of the night arrived, when it was exactly midnight, the one who provided the banquet thereupon paid his debt [to the gods]. (b.9 f.4 c.8 p.39) 20. *mo[i]xtlahuaya*. auh in tlatlacatecolo in tzitzitzimi imixpan tlamictiaya: ihuan in impilhuan quimmictiaya, inca moxtlahuaya, in imixpan, in tetlaxinti, in cuauhtlaxinti: and they slew things before the devils, the demons, and they slew their sons; with them the debt was paid before carved stone, carved wood. (b.1 f.3 c.Ap p.61) 21. *mo[i]xtlahuaya*. in nextlahualiztli inic mochihuaya in ihcuac ahzo aca in tlein ipan mochihuaya, ahzo cocoliztli in ihcuac opatic, niman ahzo copalli ihuan amatl inic moxtlahuaya, the payment of a debt [to the gods] was thus done: when mayhap something had befallen one, perchance sickness, when he recovered, then perchance he paid his debt with incense or paper [spotted with liquid rubber]. (b.2 f.12 c.38 p.199) 22. *mo[i]xtlahuaya*. inic chicuei capitulo, itechpa tlatoa in quenin quichihuaya tlamanaliztli, inic moxtlahuaya, in yehuatl quichihuaya cuicuicaliztli, in ihcuac ye compehualtizque cuicanime mihtotizque: ihuan in tlein quichihuaya in yoaltica. eighth chapter, which telleth how he who held the banquet performed the act of offering, to pay the debt [to the gods], when the singers were about to begin to dance; and what they did during the night. (b.9 f.3 c.8 p.37) 23. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. inic 20. capitulo, itechpa tlatoa in ilhuitl, ihuan in nextlahualiztli: in quichihuaya, in ipan huel ic cemilhuitl metztli; in quitocayotiaya, in quitoaya atl cahualo, anozo cuahuitl ehua. twentieth chapter, which telleth of the feast day and the debt-payment which they celebrated during all the days of the month, which they named, which they said was atl caualo or quauitl eua. (b.2 f.1 c.20 p.42) 24. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. inic cempoali oce capitulo, itechpa tlatoa in tlamahuiztililiztli, ihuan in nextlahualiztli, in quichihuaya, in ipan huel ic ontetl metztli, in mitoaya, tlacaxipehualiztli. twenty-first chapter, which telleth of the honors and the debt-payment which they used to render at the time of the entire second month, which was called tlacaxipeualiztli. (b.2 f.1 c.21 p.46) 25. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. inic cempoali omome capitulo, onca motenehua in ilhuitl, ihuan in nextlahualiztli in quichihuaya in ipan ic ome metztli: in mitoaya, in motenehuaya, tlacaxipehualiztli. twenty-second chapter, in which are described the feast day and the debt-paying which they celebrated in the second month, called, known as tlacaxipeualiztli. (b.2 f.2 c.22 p.56) 26. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. inic cempoalli on chicome capitulo, itechpa tlatoa in ilhuitl ihuan in nextlahualiztli, in quichihuaya, in ipan ic cemilhuitl inic chicuei metztli: in mitoaya huei tecuilhuitl. twenty-seventh chapter,which telleth of the feast day and of the debt-paying which they celebrated during all the days of the eighth month, which was called uey tecuilhuitl. (b.2 f.5 c.27 p.95) 27. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. inic cempoalli on chiconahui capitulo, oncan motenehua in ilhuitl, ihuan in nextlahualiztli: in quichihuaya, in ipan ic cemilhuitl, ic matlactetl metztli: in mitoaya xocotl huetzi. twenty-ninth chapter, in which are named the feast and the debt-paying which they celebrated during all the days of the tenth month, which was called xocotl uetzi. (b.2 f.6 c.29 p.110) 28. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. inic cempoalli on matlactli oce capitulo: itechpa tlatoa in ilhuitl, ihuan in nextlahualiztli; in mochihuaya, in ipan huel ic cemilhuitl, inic matlactetl omome metztli: in motocayotiaya, teotl eco. thirty-first chapter, which telleth of the feast and the debt-paying which were observed during all the days of the twelfth month, which was named teotl eco. (b.2 f.7 c.31 p.127) 29. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. inic 34 capitulo: itechpa tlatoa in ilhuitl, ihuan in nextlahualiztli, in mochihuaya in ipan ic cemilhuitl, ic caxtoltetl metztli, in mitoaya: panquetzaliztli. thirty-fourth chapter, which telleth of the feasts and the debt-paying which were observed during all the days of the fifteenth month, which was called panquetzaliztli. (b.2 f.8 c.34 p.140) 30. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. nextlahualiztli. the payment of a debt [to the gods]. (b.2 f.12 c.38 p.199) 31. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. in nextlahualiztli inic mochihuaya in ihcuac ahzo aca in tlein ipan mochihuaya, ahzo cocoliztli in ihcuac opatic, niman ahzo copalli ihuan amatl inic moxtlahuaya, the payment of a debt [to the gods] was thus done: when mayhap something had befallen one, perchance sickness, when he recovered, then perchance he paid his debt with incense or paper [spotted with liquid rubber]. (b.2 f.12 c.38 p.199) 32. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. auh intla tlatlauhtiliztli, ic mochihuaya zan yehuatl in tlenamaquiliztli, ihuan nextlahualiztli, ihuan tlalcualiztli, nextlahualiztli. and if it was a supplication, it was done only with these: the offering of incense, the paying of a debt, and the eating of earth, the paying of a debt. (b.2 f.14 c.38 p.219) 33. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. auh intla tlatlauhtiliztli, ic mochihuaya zan yehuatl in tlenamaquiliztli, ihuan nextlahualiztli, ihuan tlalcualiztli, nextlahualiztli. and if it was a supplication, it was done only with these: the offering of incense, the paying of a debt, and the eating of earth, the paying of a debt. (b.2 f.14 c.38 p.219) 34. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. inic chicuacen capitulo, itechpa tlatoa, in ilhuitl, ihuan in nextlahualli, in mochihuaya, in ipan ic cemilhuitl ic macuilli metztli, in mitoaya, toxcatl. sixth (twenty-fourth] chapter, which relateth the feast and the debt-paying which was celebrated during all the days of the fifth month, which was called toxcatl. (b.2 f.2 c.24 p.65) 35. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. niman no icuac tlatla, in ixquich nextlahualli amatl, ihuan in quetzalli, ihuan in nepapan tlazoihhuitl: ihuan cequi chalchihuitl in iuccic, in atle itlacihuiz, in amo tlacihuice: ihuan cequi olchalchihuitl, yayauhqui, yayactic, anozo iyauhtic. then also was the time when all the paper offerings burned, and the quetzal feathers and the various [other] precious feathers, and some of the green stones -well formed, those which were in no way blemished, which had no defects, as well as some of the rubber-colored stones, those which were blackish, those which were brown, those which were dark. (b.2 f.4 c.25 p.88) 36. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. quihualtemohuia in ixquich nextlahualli, in tetehuitl: ihuan ichtilmatli tlacuilolli, ihuan itoca ayahuixo: ihuan in chalchihuitl, ihuan quetzalli, ihuan copalli, tlatlacatlachia: they brought down all the offerings -- the rubber-spattered sacrificial banners, and the maguey fiber capes painted with designs, also called "mist-faced," and the green stones, and the quetzal feathers, and the incense pieces which looked like men. (b.2 f.4 c.25 p.89) 37. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. auh in oacito niman ye ic conacalaquia, conacaltema in ixquich nextlahualli: and when they had gone to arrive, thereupon they loaded a boat; they filled a boat with all the offerings. (b.2 f.4 c.25 p.89) 38. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. inic cempoalli on matlactli omome capitulo: oncan motenehua in ilhuitl, ihuan in nextlahualli, in mochihuaya in ipan ic cemilhuitl, ic matlactetl omei metztli in motenehuaya, in mitoaya tepilhuitl. thirty-second chapter, in which are related the feast day and debt-paying which were observed during all the days of the thirteenth month, which was known as, which was called tepeilhuitl. (b.2 f.7 c.32 p.130) 39. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. inic cempoalli onmatlactli omei capitulo: oncan motenehua in ilhuitl, ihuan in nextlahualli, inic tlacotia: in quichihuaya, in ipan ic cemilhuitl, ic matlactetl on nahui metztli, in motenehuaya, quecholli. thirty-third chapter, in which are related the feast day and the debt-paying with which they gave service, which they observed during all the days of the fourteenth month, which was called quecholli. (b.2 f.8 c.33 p.133) 40. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. auh in ihcuac concahua tetehuitl, in nextlahualli conmamana, coniilpia cuenmantitech. and when they left the paper banners, when they set down the debt-payment, they bound them upon the poles. (b.2 f.9 c.35 p.154) 41. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. inic cempoalli on caxtolli oce, capitulo oncan motenehua in ilhuitl, ihuan in nextlahualli, in mochihuaya in ipan huel ic cemilhuitl ic caxtoltetl omome metztli in mitoaya tititl. thirty-sixth chapter, where are related the feast day and the debt-paying which were observed during all the days of the seventeenth month, which was called tititl. (b.2 f.9 c.36 p.154) 42. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. ihuan oncan tlatlaya in nextlahualli, in ihcuac miquia tlamatzinca cexiuhtica. and there the debt-payments burned at the time that, each year, the tlamatzinca died. (b.2 f.12 c.38 p.185) 43. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. auh miec in huentli, in nextlahualli inic quimahuiztiliaya, and many were the offerings and blood sacrifices with which they did him honor. (b.4 f.4 c.9 p.33) 44. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. quitocayotia nextlahualli, they called the [ceremony] nextlaualli. (b.4 f.9 c.25 p.87) 45. *ne[i]xtlahualoya*. nextlahualoya, in nohuian tepeticpac, ihuan neteteuhtiloya, there was the paying of the debt [to the tlalocs] everywhere on the mountain tops, and sacrificial banners were hung. (b.2 f.1 c.20 p.42) 46. *ne[i]xtlahualti*. izquican in, in miquiya nextlahualti, tlacateteuhti: these were all the places where the debt-payments, the "human paper streamers, died. (b.2 f.1 c.20 p.44) 47. *ohmo[i]xtlauh*. in ohmoxtlauh, niman ye ic ipan tlatoa in ixquich monequiz, in tlacualli, in totolquimilli, in nacatlaoyo, in totollaolli: ihuan cualli cacahuatl, teonazazzo. when the debt was paid, thereupon he undertook to secure all which was necessary of food, turkey pasties, meat stewed with maize, turkey stewed with maize, and good chocolate with "divine ear" spice. (b.9 f.3 c.6 p.27) 48. *oixtlauh*. a ca opopouh, ca oixtlauh in nayotl, in tayotl: the motherhood, the fatherhood are rendered, are satisfied. (b.6 f.7 c.16 p.85) 49. *ommo[i]xtlauh*. auh in ommoxtlauh, niman ye ic hualpehua: and when he had paid the debt, thereupon he departed. (b.2 f.11 c.38 p.181) 50. *omo[i]xtlahua*. auh in otlapitzaloc mexico yohualnepantla, niman ic nohuian tlapitza in tlamacazque in tlamaceuhque in ompa tepetitech in campa omoxtlahua, and when the trumpets had been sounded in mexico at midnight, then the priests, they who did penance, blew trumpets everywhere there upon the mountains where they paid their debts. (b.8 f.5 c.apa p.81) 51. *onixtlauh*. otonmotlamachti, otonmocuiltono: ompopouh, onixtlauh inic monantzin, inic motatzin. thou has rejoiced, thou hast become wealthy. it hath been paid; the debt hath been paid by means of thy mother, thy father. (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.249) 52. *onixtlauh*. ompopouh, onixtlauh inic monantzin, inic motatzin in altepetl, "it hath been paid; the debt hath been paid by means of thy mother, thy father, the city.". (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.249) 53. *onne[i]xtlahualoya*. onnextlahualoya, in tepetzinco, anozo ompa in huel aitic, itocayocan pantitla: there was the payment of the debt at tepetzinco or there in the very middle of the lake at a place called pantitlan. (b.2 f.1 c.20 p.42) 54. *ontla[i]xtlahuaya*. icuac cuacualo, iuhquin ic tetzoyotiloya, tetlacaquitilo, tetlalhuilo, temolcahualtilo: ca in aquique macoya, in icuac ye ilhuiuhquizaz, mocuitlaxcolixtlahuaya, mopopohuaya, ipampa ca ontlaxtlahuaya. when it was eaten, it was as if one had thus been given an obligation; one had been notified, informed; it had been verified to one that those to whom it had been given, at the coming of the [next] feast day, paid with their entrails; they made repayments because of the debt. (b.1 f.2 c.15 p.34) 55. *quintla[i]xtlahuili*. ihuan oppamixtlapan inic quintlaxtlahuili, inic quintlatlacollaz pipilti. and a double forfeit he then paid in order to redeem and deliver the noblemen from bondage. (b.8 f.3 c.14 p.41) 56. *tla[i]xtlahua*. auh in ihcuac quilhuia motelpochtlali, tlaxtlahua. and when, they said, youth was laid down, he paid his debt. (b.3 f.4 c.ap6 p.59) 57. *tla[i]xtlahuazque*. macihui in omito: in mochi neciz in quicuaz, in caciz, nepapan totome: in ixhuihuan, yehuantin tlaxtlahuazque: huel motolinizque. although, as has been said, all which he will eat will be at hand --the various birds which he will capture --his grandsons will be in debt; they will indeed be poor. (b.11 f.3 c.2 p.30) 58. *tla[i]xtlauh*. zatepan huel tlaxtlauh in coyotl, ca miec in quimacac totoli in yehuatl tiacauh in quimomaquixtili. later the coyote paid its debt well, for it gave many birds to this warrior who had saved it. (b.11 f.9 c.5 p.84) 59. *tlaxtlahua*. inic amo omic iuhquinma ic tlaxtlahua, yehica ca omiquizquia. because he had not died, he paid his debt in this manner; because, verily, [otherwise] he would have died. (b.2 f.12 c.38 p.199) 60. *tlazonextlahualti*. mitohuaya, ca yehuantin huel tlazonextlahualti. it was said that they were most precious blood-offerings. (b.1 f.4 c.Ap p.68) > In Estudios de cultura nahuatl 32 Ulrich K�hler takes issue with the concept > of nextlahualiztli 'sacrifice' as literally debt-repayment, despite its > obvious derivation from the verb ixtlahua. He is exercised about this and > states that , "this article is written in English, because most of the > erroneous recent statements on an alleged Aztec debt-repayment to their gods > have been published in that language. Hopefully, further diffusion of this > nonsense can still be stopped." > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Feb 15 19:03:53 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:03:53 -0500 Subject: ixtlilli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, Elisabeth, I'm aware of the components. I want to know if there is a substance known as ixtlilli. thanks. On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Elisabeth Curiel wrote: > Hello Michael: > > I don't know the context of what you read, but "ixtlilli", if we talk of a > "substance" is probably a compound of > > ixtli = face > > tlilli = black color > > some face blackening. > > Elisabeth Curiel > > >From: Michael Mccafferty > >To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu > >Subject: Re: ixtlilli > >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:31:19 -0500 (EST) > > > > > >Does anyone recognize as a particular substance? I do not have > >the word in my database. > > > > > >tlaxtlahui, > > > >Michael McCafferty > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos es la manera m�s sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus fotos: > http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu "Talking is often a torment for me, and I need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words. C.G. Jung "...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk." Rumi From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Feb 15 19:05:15 2002 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:05:15 -0500 Subject: ixtlilli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Miqueltzin, Here are all the occurrences of "-ixtlil-" . Saludos, Joe ixtlilco** 1. *ixtlilco* teohua.. the keeper of the god at the temple of ixtlilton (b.2 f.13 p.212). 2. in *ixtlilco* teohua ipan icaca, ipan tlatohuaya, quitzatziliaya in huentli inic motenmamalia pipiltzitzinti in in ahzo oquichtin, in anozo cihua. the keeper of the god at the temple of ixtlilton presided over, issued directions, made public announcements [concerning] the gifts, when the small children, whether men [children] or women [children], began to talk. (b.2 f.13 p.212). ixtlilcuechahuac** 3. auh manozo ihuian, yocoxca intech onaciz in tiacahuan in yaomicque, in tepilhuan: in quitziccuacuatzin, in maceuhcatzin, in tlacahuepantzin, in *ixtlilcuechahuac*, in ihhuitl temoc in chahuacuetzin: auh in ye mochintin, in ye ixquichtin, in cuauhti in ocelo, in ilhuicatl itic, in ompa cahuiltia in tonatiuh, in xippilli in tiacauh in yaomicqui in ompa coyohuia:. and may they in peace, in repose, arrive among the valiant warriors, those who died in war, the noblemen, quitzicquaquatzin, maceuhcatzin, tlacauepantzin, ixtlilcuechauac, ihuitl temoc, [and] chahuacuetzin; and all, all the several eagle warriors, the ocelot warriors who are in the heavens where they gladden the sun, the turquoise prince, the valiant warrior, the one who died in war--they cry out to him there. (b.6 f.1 p.13). ixtlilcuichectique** 4. mimiltontli: cequintin huel tliltique, cequintin *ixtlilcuichectique*:. they are small and cylindrical [worms]; some are deep black, some smoky black. (b.11 f.19 p.190). ixtlilectic** 5. zan *ixtlilectic*, zan oc iuhquin ezhuaqui, ololtic, ololtontli, pahpatzpil, huahuacalpil,. it is of quite dark surface, still like dried blood -- round, small and round, a little spongy, a little dry. (b.11 f.23 p.238). ixtlilehua** 6. in ihcuac, cualo metztli: *ixtlilehua*, ixcuichehua, cuichehuatimomana, tlayohuatimomana.. when the moon eclipsed, his face grew dark and sooty; blackness and darkness spread. (b.7 f.1 p.8). ixtlilehuac** 7. zan nel achi *ixtlilehuac*.. it is really a little dark-surfaced. (b.11 f.22 p.223). 8. in zan mixcahuia, zan oc achi cuichehuac, achi *ixtlilehuac*:. it is only a little dark, a little blackish. (b.11 f.23 p.241). 9. tlalchichilli; tlalli chichiltic, poxahuac, *ixtlilehuac*, ixtliltic:. tlalchichilli is chili-red earth, spongy, dark, dark-surfaced. (b.11 f.25 p.257). 10. tliltic, *ixtlilehuac*,. it is black, dark. (b.11 f.25 p.258). ixtlilihui** 11. *ixtlilihui*. face blackens (b.10 f.6 p.112b). ixtliltic** 12. ixcuappachtic, nextic, achi *ixtliltic*:. its feathers are tawny, ashen, somewhat dark. (b.11 f.4 p.35). 13. yahualtotonti: in ixiuhyo xoxoctic in inelhuayo *ixtliltic*. its leaves are round, small, green; its root blackish on the surface. (b.11 f.15 p.150). 14. auh in inelhuayo, achi *ixtliltic* im pani: ehuayotilahuac, in iyollo iztac,. and its root is somewhat black on the surface, thick-skinned: it is white in its interior. (b.11 f.16 p.168). 15. im pani achi *ixtliltic*, in tlani achi ixcoztic,. It is somewhat black on its surface, somewhat yellow within. (b.11 f.17 p.172). 16. auh in inelhuayo totomahuac, totomactotonti: im pani *ixtliltic*, in iitic iztac: amo ehuayotilahuac, neucticachichic,. and its roots are thick, small and thick, black on their surfaces, white on the inside, thin-skinned, bitter-sweet. (b.11 f.17 p.176). 17. ehuayotilahuac, in pani achi *ixtliltic*, in tlani iztac, chichic,. the skin is thick, somewhat black on the surface, white underneath, bitter. (b.11 f.18 p.182). 18. im pani achi *ixtliltic*, in tlani cenca iztac:. it is somewhat black on the surface, very white beneath. (b.11 f.18 p.185). 19. tlalchichilli; tlalli chichiltic, poxahuac, ixtlilehuac, *ixtliltic*:. tlalchichilli is chili-red earth, spongy, dark, dark-surfaced. (b.11 f.25 p.257). ixtlilton** 20. inic caxtolli oce capitulo itechpa tlatoa, in teotl in itoca, catca, *ixtlilton*, tlaltetecuin.. sixteenth chapter, which telleth of the god named ixtliton (little black face), tlaltetecuin (the earth-stamper). (b.1 f.2 p.35). 21. auh in aquin mococoaya, piltontli, ompa quihuicaya in iteopan *ixtlilton*:. and whenever a child sickened, they brought him to the temple of ixtliton. (b.1 f.2 p.35). 22. in otlacualoc, niman mitotia, in *ixtlilton*:. after the eating, then ixtliton danced. (b.1 f.2 p.35). 23. amo teotl in xiuhteuctli: macuilxochitl amo teotl; omacatl amono teotl: *ixtlilton*, tlaltetecuin, amono teotl: in opochtli, amono teotl: xipe totec amono teotl:. xiuhtecutli is no god, macuilxochitl is no god, nor is omacatl a god, nor is ixtlilton tlaltetecuin a god, nor is opochtli a god, nor is xipe totec a god. (b.1 f.4 p.64). 24. b. oc no ce diablo quimoteotitiaque, in huehuetque, in quitocayotique, *ixtlilton*, ihuan xochipilli:. b. still another devil whom the ancients worshipped they named ixtliton and xochipilli. (b.1 f.5 p.72). 25. zan no yehuatl *ixtlilton*, anozo tlaltetecuin, inteouh catca in huehuetque:. likewise one ixtlilton or tlaltetecuin was a god of the ancients. (b.1 f.5 p.73). 26. oc no miec tlamantli, itech tlamiloya: ihuan miec tlamantli, neahuiltiliztli, in quichihuaya, in inchan, quihuicaya, in *ixtlilton*;. many other things were ascribed to him, and they did many things as recreation [when] they took ixtlilton to their homes. (b.1 f.5 p.73). ixtlilxochitl** 27. auh inic ei, tlatoani mochiuh acolhuacan yehuatl in huehue *ixtlilxochitl*. and the third who became ruler of acolhuacan was ixtlilxochitl the elder. (b.8 f.1 p.9). ixtlilxochitzin** 28. inic chiconhahui tlatoani mochiuh tetzcoco yehuatl in *ixtlilxochitzin* in tlatocat chicuexihuitl. the ninth who became ruler of texcoco was ixtlilxochitzin, who ruled eight years. (b.8 f.1 p.10). mixtlilhui** 29. auh ihuin in mochichihuaya, motlilozac, mixtlilpopotz, *mixtlilhui*, michchiahuiticac,. and thus was he arrayed: he was anointed with black; his face was covered with soot; it was blackened; his face was [spotted] with [a paste of] amaranth seed dough. (b.1 f.2 p.46). mixtlilpopotz** 30. *mixtlilpopotz*,. his face was covered with soot. (b.1 f.1 p.9). 31. auh ihuin in mochichihuaya, motlilozac, *mixtlilpopotz*, mixtlilhui, michchiahuiticac,. and thus was he arrayed: he was anointed with black; his face was covered with soot; it was blackened; his face was [spotted] with [a paste of] amaranth seed dough. (b.1 f.2 p.46). mixtlilpopotzque** 32. auh omentin in tiachcahuan *mixtlilpopotzque*, ahco mani, tlexictli ixpan,. and two masters of youths who had spread black paint on their faces stood above, before the hearth. (b.2 f.3 p.74). mixtlilpopotztinenca** 33. mozahua, ic mitoa motlilzahua, *mixtlilpopotztinenca*,. [the impersonator] fasted; hence it was said: "he fasteth in black," [for] he went with his face smoke-black. (b.2 f.3 p.69). mocemixtlilpopotz** 34. inic mochichihuaya, mozac, *mocemixtlilpopotz*, mixtizatlatlali, in icamapa:. thus was [ixtliton] arrayed: he was spread over with unguent; his face was covered with soot; about his lips white clay was placed. (b.1 f.2 p.36). quixtlilpopotza** 35. in oconhuicaque, niman cohza tliltica, huel *quixtlilpopotza*,. when they had taken [the children] there, then they anointed them with black, they blackened their faces well with soot. (b.3 f.4 p.63). teixtlileuh** 36. *teixtlileuh*, teixtlilo, teixcapotzo, teixtlecaleuh.. he turned men's skins brown, darkening them, blackening them, blistering them. (b.7 f.1 p.1). teixtlilo** 37. teixtlileuh, *teixtlilo*, teixcapotzo, teixtlecaleuh.. he turned men's skins brown, darkening them, blackening them, blistering them. (b.7 f.1 p.1). tlaixtlilpopotzalli** 38. auh inic mochichihuaya, *tlaixtlilpopotzalli*, tlaixolhuilli, motlilozac, ixmichihuahue, ixmichihuauhyo,. and he was thus arrayed: his face was covered with soot; his face was painted with liquid rubber; it was anointed with black; his face was [spotted] with [a past of] amaranth seed dough. (b.1 f.1 p.7). On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Does anyone recognize as a particular substance? I do not have > the word in my database. > > > tlaxtlahui, > > Michael McCafferty > > > From jmiguel at biblio.ues.edu.sv Fri Feb 15 19:44:39 2002 From: jmiguel at biblio.ues.edu.sv (Juan Carlos Miguel Martinez) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:44:39 -0600 Subject: Un toponimo tlaxcalteco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hola Joe, soy un joven investigador del nahualismo e indigenismo mesoamericano agradeceria mucho si me envias informacion que me ayude a tener más conocimiento sobre el tema.. atte.Shuan From liccuriel at hotmail.com Fri Feb 15 21:44:57 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:44:57 +0000 Subject: ixtlilli Message-ID: A C Garcia: Si eso que me dices es lo que pienso que me estas diciendo, te respondo: "yo creo que significa que eres un penitente." Lisita. >From: "A. C. Garcia" >Reply-To: cuitlahuac at altavista.com >To: Elisabeth Curiel >Subject: Re: ixtlilli >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:48:05 -0800 (PST) > >well to my knowlwdge I believe it means PHALLUS... I >could be wrong... >--- Elisabeth Curiel wrote: > > Hello Michael: > > > > I don't know the context of what you read, but > > "ixtlilli", if we talk of a > > "substance" is probably a compound of > > > > ixtli = face > > > > tlilli = black color > > > > some face blackening. > > > > Elisabeth Curiel > > > > >From: Michael Mccafferty > > >To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu > > >Subject: Re: ixtlilli > > >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:31:19 -0500 (EST) > > > > > > > > >Does anyone recognize as a particular > > substance? I do not have > > >the word in my database. > > > > > > > > >tlaxtlahui, > > > > > >Michael McCafferty > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > MSN Photos es la manera más sencilla de compartir e > > imprimir sus fotos: > > http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Got something to say? Say it better with Yahoo! Video Mail >http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Hable con sus amigos en línea, pruebe MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.es From Huaxyacac at aol.com Fri Feb 15 21:51:22 2002 From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:51:22 EST Subject: ixtlahua/debt Message-ID: How recently did ECN 32 come out? I just checked the UNAM e-journal website, and they still only have 30 and 31 available on-line at http://www.ejournal.unam.mx/cultura_nahuatl/cultura_nahuatl_index.html We'll see if they post it before I next make it down to Mexico to go book-shopping. Alec Christensen From liccuriel at hotmail.com Fri Feb 15 23:01:02 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:01:02 +0000 Subject: to all Message-ID: Al penitente que me envió un estupido emal: Ok, chico listo. Aunque uses direcciones anónimas para que no pueda responder tus majaderias, te voy a agarrar, te prometo que te voy a agarrar. Aunque se me haya regresado tu correo, sé de qué IP lo enviaste, y quién eres. Ni siquiera sabes con quién te estas metiendo. Y ni te molestes en enviarme nada más. No abriré este correo más. Atentamente, Lisita. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos es la manera más sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus fotos: http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Feb 18 14:27:41 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 08:27:41 -0600 Subject: Xitzahuil Message-ID: From: "Susana Moraleda" To: Subject: Xitzahuil Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:25:44 +0100 Podria alguien ayudarme con la etimologia de la palabra XITZAHUIL por favor? Supuestamente significa "miles de cascabeles", pero tengo mis dudas si es Nahuatl u algun otro idioma amerindio. Gracias anticipadas, Susana From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Feb 18 14:38:28 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 08:38:28 -0600 Subject: ixtlahua/debt Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:22:05 -0700 Subject: Re: ixtlahua/debt From: richard haly To: Frances Karttunen , I can likewise take issue with most representations of sacrifice as debt-payement to gods when concepts such as debt, payment, and gods go unexamined. From my research, nextlahualiztli makes most sense as payment to the rulers (likewise teotl). When people say that the Aztecs thought the Spaniards were "gods" - teules- it makes them (the Aztecs) seem pretty credulous when we think of "gods" in any Judeo-Christian manner. Nonetheless, when one considers that they called their own rulers "gods" and treated them as such - not looking in to the brightness of the face of the emperor/sun - then any debt-payment to gods can be a debt-payment to rulers. All sacrifice phenomena - and all festival and pilgrimage phenomena as well - make much more sense when one tries to understand them in this world and not in some metaphysical or "religious" way. (Religious is in quotation marks because most people think religion is about "spiritual" stuff and not "material" stuff because that is what their own religions have told them. That is not the case in a culture of embodied ancestors - Mesoamerica, for one.) Sacrifice is much more like kula-exchange among Trobriand islanders. An explanation of sacrifice whose dynamics do not rely on metaphysical language or a transcendent agent has a greater chance of making real sense. Richard From carlossn at ui.boe.es Tue Feb 19 09:05:55 2002 From: carlossn at ui.boe.es (Carlos Santamarina Novillo) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:05:55 +0100 Subject: ixtlahua/debt Message-ID: Yes, I think too that the “metaphysical considerations” had obscured the social reality about human sacrifice. I think that about this issue is very appropriate the use of pike’s terms emics (the native sources’ reasoning) and etics (the scholar’s conclusions), as in many other cases. I am very interesting about teteuctin as teteo, or rulers as gods. Can you specify your sources about the divine consideration of rulers? Thank you - Carlos Santamarina "John F. Schwaller" ha escrito: > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:22:05 -0700 > Subject: Re: ixtlahua/debt > From: richard haly > To: Frances Karttunen , > > I can likewise take issue with most representations of sacrifice as > debt-payement to gods when concepts such as debt, payment, and gods go > unexamined. From my research, nextlahualiztli makes most sense as payment to > the rulers (likewise teotl). When people say that the Aztecs thought the > Spaniards were "gods" - teules- it makes them (the Aztecs) seem pretty > credulous when we think of "gods" in any Judeo-Christian manner. > Nonetheless, when one considers that they called their own rulers "gods" and > treated them as such - not looking in to the brightness of the face of the > emperor/sun - then any debt-payment to gods can be a debt-payment to > rulers. All sacrifice phenomena - and all festival and pilgrimage phenomena > as well - make much more sense when one tries to understand them in this > world and not in some metaphysical or "religious" way. (Religious is in > quotation marks because most people think religion is about "spiritual" > stuff and not "material" stuff because that is what their own religions have > told them. That is not the case in a culture of embodied ancestors - > Mesoamerica, for one.) Sacrifice is much more like kula-exchange among > Trobriand islanders. An explanation of sacrifice whose dynamics do not rely > on metaphysical language or a transcendent agent has a greater chance of > making real sense. > > Richard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Feb 19 19:52:23 2002 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:52:23 -0500 Subject: Bleeding Message-ID: Nocnihuan, I have a morphological doubt about words involving bleeding (self and otherwise). I have a hypothesis, but no supporting evidence for it. Could someone shed some light on the 'i' in "m[o]izoya" 'he bled himself"? If it matches my hypothesis, I'll call it 'supporting' and say thank you. Best regards, Joe mizo** 1. in campa cochizque, oncan quitilquetza, ixpan tlamacehua, *mizo*, quicopaltemilia, inic quitlauhtia in inteouh iyacateuctli, inic quitlanilia, inic quimatataquilia, iteicneliliz:. wheresoever they would sleep, there they set them up; before them they did penances, drew blood, offered incense to render service to their god yiacatecutli, in order to win, to implore his favor. (b.1 f.2 p.41). 2. a. in icuac huel oquiquetz iteouh: niman ixpan tlamana, ixpan monacaztequi, *mizo*, quitlatlauhtia:. a. when he hath properly set up his god, then before him he layeth an offering; before him he cutteth his ears, he bleedeth himself, he offereth him prayers. (b.1 f.3 p.57). 3. auh in aquin itto, in amo *mizo* quipepetlahuaya, aocmo quimaca in itilma,. and if anyone was seen who did not anoint himself with his blood, they repeatedly stripped him; nevermore did they give him his cape. (b.2 f.8 p.135). 4. oncan ixpan tlamacehua, *mizo*, monacaztequi, tlacoquixtia,. here, before him, they did penances, bled themselves, cut their ears, and drew straws through them; (b.5 f.1 p.155). 5. tlateomatini, in yoalli ic quitlaza tlapia, teponazoa, cuicatoque, *mizo*, motetequi, mohuitztlalia, tlapitza, apan temo.. they were devout: they held vigil, held watch, played the two-toned drum, sat singing, bled themselves, mutilated themselves, inserted maguey spines, blew the trumpet shell, entered into the water. (b.10 f.11 p.176). mizoc** 6. auh in ihcuac yoalnepantla: in ye tlapitza *mizoc*, in mozauhqui, tlamacazqui: niman iciuhca quintlalia tlecuilixcuac, in oncan onoc petlatl,. and when it was midnight, when [it was the time to] blow shell trumpets, [to] draw blood, those who fasted, the priests, then quickly placed [the victims] before the hearth, where a straw mat lay spread out. (b.9 f.5 p.63). mizoni** 7. yehuatl in amo tlatziuhqui, in yeel, in tlamocuitlahuiani, in cochizani, in tlahceliani, in tlamacehuani, in mozahuani, in *mizoni*,. one who was not lazy; diligent and careful, vigilant, a receiver of [ritual] benefits, a doer of penances, one who fasted and bled himself; (b.4 f.1 p.5). mizotoque** 8. oncan tlatlapitztoque, ihuan *mizotoque*:. there they each sat blowing shell trumpets, and they sat bleeding themselves. (b.2 f.8 p.134). mizoya** 9. ixquich tlacatl, *mizoya*:. everyone anointed himself -- with his blood. (b.2 f.8 p.135). 10. in *mizoya* inic quichihuaya itztli ica in contequia in inacazco, auh niman ic quihualpipiloyaya in eztli in innacaztitlan.. when they bloodied themselves, thus did they do it: with an obsidian blade one cut [the lobes of] one's ears, and then they let the blood flow from about the ears. (b.2 f.12 p.198). 11. zan ye no yehuatl in nezoliztli in nenacaztequiliztli in *mizoya* in monacaztequia.. likewise the bloodying was a cutting of the ear [lobes] when one bloodied oneself, when one cut one's ear [lobes]. (b.2 f.12 p.198). 12. auh mochi tlacatl *mizoya*,. and everyone drew blood. (b.2 f.14 p.216). 13. huel mochi tlacatl in oquichtli, in cihuatl, im piltzintli, monacaztequia, *mizoya*,. verily, everyone--men, and women, children--cut their ears and drew blood. (b.4 f.1 p.6). 14. auh yece inic huel quicnopilhuiz imahcehual, inic huel quittaz tlahmachtli, cenca tlamacehuaya, mozahuaya, *mizoya* in ihcuac moquetzaya ce xochitl tonalli:. but nevertheless, in order to gain her deserts, and to achieve skill in embroidering, she should do great penances, and fast, and draw blood when the day sign one flower set in. (b.4 f.3 p.25). 15. ca i yehuanti tlenamacaque, tlamacazque catca ihcuac quizaya in tlacuauhtlapoyahua, in mitoaya yancuican tlatlapitzalo, achto *mizoya* in ixpan tlacatecolotl ica huitztli, in metl ihuitzo, niman ceceyaca quizaya, zan petlauhtihuia,. for these who were fire priests and other priests, when they came forth well into the night, and when, as was said, the shell trumpets were newly blown, first drew their blood before the devil, with thorns, the spines of the maguey; then each one separately set forth, going quite naked. (b.8 f.5 p.81). 16. in inteopan oncan nenca in tlamacazque: ihuan oncan huapahualoya in pipiltotonti, oncan tlamacehuaya, yohualli quitlazaya, apan temoya mohuitztlaliaya, *mizoya*, motequia, mozahuaya,. there in their temples lived the priests, and there the small boys were reared; there they did penance, passed the night, entered the bath; maguey spines were placed, they bled themselves, they cut themselves, they fasted. (b.10 f.11 p.177). momazaizo** 17. mitoaya, *momazaizo*,. it was said: "they anoint themselves with blood because of the deer." (b.2 f.8 p.134). nixochizo** 18. *nixochizo*,. I thread a flower. (b.11 f.21 p.214). nixochizozo** 19. *nixochizozo*:. I string flowers. (b.11 f.21 p.214). omizoc** 20. auh in ye iuhqui in *omizoc*, in oconquixti iiezzo: no ipan conchichipitza in amatl, oncan mani ithualnepantla:. and when this was done, when blood had been offered, when he had made his blood flow, also he spattered it profusely on the papers which lay in the middle of the courtyard. (b.9 f.1 p.11). ommizo** 21. auh in yehuantin teopixque papahuaque, quintlacoaantihui, in quihuica, icpac huitzilopochtli, inic *ommizo* yohualnepantla,. and these keepers of the gods, the long-haired ones, took them in their midst---they took them above, to [the temple of] uitzilopochtli, to offer blood at midnight. (b.8 f.4 p.64). 22. zan ompa ommocahuaya, inic nauhcampa *ommizo*.. just there they stopped offering blood to the four quarters. (b.9 f.1 p.10). ommizoc** 23. in oipan *ommizoc* niman ye ic hualquiza in ithualnepantla:. when the blood had been offered on [the papers], thereupon they went out into the middle of the courtyard. (b.9 f.1 p.10). onmizoa** 24. zan no izquiyoal, in yoalnepantla tlenamacaya, ihuan *onmizoa* in ixpan huitzilopochtli, ihuan maltiaya.. likewise, for as many nights, at midnight, they offered incense and made blood offerings before [the image of] uitzilopochtli, and they bathed themselves. (b.8 f.4 p.64). oommizoco** 25. in *oommizoco*: niman ye no ceppa calaqui in ichan, ixpan moquetza in tletl,. when he came to make blood offerings, then once more he entered his home, stood before the fire, [then took the paper, raised it up--raised it as an offering toward the fire]. (b.9 f.1 p.11). quizo** 26. in olli ic *quizo* coyolomitl: niman ye ic contlecuinaltia,. they impaled the [lump of] rubber on a [copper] spit; thereupon they set it on fire. (b.9 f.1 p.9). 27. in oconquechcotonque, niman ye ic huitzauhqui ic *quizo* in innacaz, anozo innenepil in quizo.. when they had beheaded it, thereupon, with pointed obsidian blades, they pierced their ears, or they pierced their tongues. (b.9 f.1 p.10). 28. in oconquechcotonque, niman ye ic huitzauhqui ic quizo in innacaz, anozo innenepil in *quizo*.. when they had beheaded it, thereupon, with pointed obsidian blades, they pierced their ears, or they pierced their tongues. (b.9 f.1 p.10). 29. iyacac quitlalia, iyacac *quizo*, in acatl:. at the tip of the arrow he places it; with its tip he pierces it. (b.11 f.1 p.3). quizoaya** 30. *quizoaya*, in itlanitz inic quezhuiaya in huitztli,. he bled the calf of his leg to stain thorns with blood. (b.3 f.2 p.14). 31. inic mitoa quetzalcalli, xiuhtotocalli, tilmatitech, anozo matlatitech quitecaya, quizaloaya in quetzalli, in xiuhtototl: niman caltech *quizoaya*,. for this reason was it called the house of quetzal feathers, the house of blue cotinga feathers: they placed --they pasted --the quetzal feathers, the blue cotinga feathers, to capes or nets [and] then hung them on the wall. (b.10 f.10 p.166). quizohzo** 32. in tlahueliloc ichcanamacac: quinacazana in ichcatl, ichcazohzo, in ichcacacallotl quinacazaquia, *quizohzo*.. the bad cotton seller takes some cotton from each section; he fluffs the cotton with a needle; into each cotton boll he introduces [other cotton]; he fluffs it with a needle. (b.10 f.4 p.75). quizoya** 33. in mixcoapan tzompantli: oncan *quizoya* in intzontecon, in miquia mixcoatempan.. mixcoapan skull rack: there they strung up the severed heads of those who died in the temple of mixcoatl. (b.2 f.11 p.180). 34. in yopico tzompantli: onca *quizoya* in intzontecon mamalti: auh yehuantin in quinhuahuanaya ipan tlacaxipehualiztli:. yopico skull rack: there they strung up the severed heads of captives and those whom they striped [slew in gladiatorial sacrifice] at the time of [the feast of] tlacaxipeualiztli. (b.2 f.12 p.189). 35. auh oncan *quizoya* in intzontecon mamalti, in icpac miquia iyacateuctli iteopan: ipan in cemilhuitlapoalli xocotl huetzi.. and there they strung up the severed heads of captives who died above on the [pyramid] temple of yiacatecutli at the time of the first day of [the month of] xocotl uetzi. (b.2 f.12 p.189). quizozo** 36. in zan tepiton quitlacoa *quizozo* in inacazco, in iyomotla in imetzpa, huitztica, anozo omitica.. if he sinned only lightly, they drew blood from his ears, his flanks, his thighs with maguey spines or with a [sharpened] bone. (b.3 f.4 p.66). quizozoque** 37. no *quizozoque* in cahuallosme intzontecon,. also they strung up the horses' heads. (b.12 f.7 p.104). quizozoya** 38. auh intla ce axihua, telpochtli, in tlamacazque *quizozoya* huitztica in inacazco, in iacolpan, in ielpan, in imetzpan,. and if one of the youths were taken, the offering priests bled his ears with a [maguey] thorn, [and] his shoulders, his breast, his thighs. (b.2 f.9 p.149). 39. ayac oncan maxixaya, auh in aquin oncan omaxix, niman quitzitzquiaya, quicalaquiaya calitic, ompa quitlatzacuiltiaya *quizozoya*.. no one urinated there; but if anyone did urinate there, they then seized him, they took him within; there they punished him, they bled him. (b.2 f.13 p.212). 40. *quizozoya* inacaztitech, iyelpan, imetzpan, itlanitzco. they drew blood from his ears, his breast, his thighs, the calves of his legs. (b.3 f.4 p.66). 41. in aquin amo huellatoz, in amo huel tetlapaloz niman *quizozoya*.. he who spoke not well, who greeted others not well, they then drew blood from [with maguey spines]. (b.3 f.4 p.67). timizoz** 42. auh *timizoz*:. and thou art to draw blood. (b.6 f.3 p.33). From indus56 at telusplanet.net Wed Feb 20 04:17:25 2002 From: indus56 at telusplanet.net (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:17:25 -0700 Subject: nezahualpilli Message-ID: In a very generous reply to an earlier query, one listmember provided me with a list of epithets for Tezcatlipoca, as the Enemy of Both sides (part of which I enclose below). I have no Nahuatl, but one epithet appears more than once: nezahualpilli. Two questions: 1) Am I correct in thinking that Nezahualpilli was also the name of the son (grandson?) of the Nezahualcoyotl? 2) If the latter means roughly 'fasting coyote' how might Nezahualpilli be translated? Leading, I suppose to a third: does it seem plausible that the stories of Nezahualpilli and Nezahualcoyotl going forth from Texcoco to challenge Moctezuma II and I respectively, have a mythic dimension ... with the Mexica figures in some sense acting as doubles for Quetzalcoatl / Tezcatlipoca? ihuan quitocayotique, titlacahuan, ihuan yaotl, *necoc* yaotl, moyocoya, nezahualpilli.. and they [also] named him titlacauan, and yaotl, necoc yaotl, moyocoya, ne‡aualpilli. (b.1 f.4 p.67). From ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu Wed Feb 20 15:11:41 2002 From: ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu (Kevin P Smith) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 07:11:41 -0800 Subject: nezahualpilli In-Reply-To: <3C732354.A04C222D@telusplanet.net> Message-ID: Dear Paul, Yes, Nezahualpilli (1463?-1515) was the son of Nezahualcoyotl. He ruled Texcoco from the age of eight or nine until his death (some say disappearance) at the age of 52. The usual translation is "Fasting Prince" or "Hungry Prince" but I suspect that, given the obvious metaphor, something like "Penitent Prince" might be closer. This would seem to fit Tezcatlipoca, especially in his manifestation as Telpochtli. As to you third question, The Texcoca were allies of the Mexica, if at times uncomfortable ones, until they sided with the Spanish against Motecuhzoma several years after Nezahualpilli's death. -- Kevin Paul Smith ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu On Tue, 19 Feb 2002, Paul Anderson wrote: > In a very generous reply to an earlier query, one listmember provided me > with a list of epithets for Tezcatlipoca, as the Enemy of Both sides > (part of which I enclose below). I have no Nahuatl, but one epithet > appears more than once: > nezahualpilli. > > Two questions: > 1) Am I correct in thinking that Nezahualpilli was also the name of the > son (grandson?) of the Nezahualcoyotl? > 2) If the latter means roughly 'fasting coyote' how might Nezahualpilli > be translated? > > Leading, I suppose to a third: does it seem plausible that the stories > of Nezahualpilli and Nezahualcoyotl going forth from Texcoco to > challenge Moctezuma II and I respectively, have a mythic dimension ... > with the Mexica figures in some sense acting as doubles for Quetzalcoatl > / Tezcatlipoca? > > > ihuan quitocayotique, titlacahuan, ihuan yaotl, *necoc* yaotl, > moyocoya, nezahualpilli.. > and they [also] named him titlacauan, and yaotl, necoc > yaotl, moyocoya, ne�aualpilli. (b.1 f.4 p.67). > From mdmorris at indiana.edu Wed Feb 20 16:44:08 2002 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:44:08 -0500 Subject: Bleeding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Would anyone be willing to share information about the religious-ritual dimensions of "tenehua" as a modifying (or compounded) verb in other ritual discursive acts such as singing? Secondly, is the place Tlatlachialoyan familiar to anyone in any context? The case I have states it is a "great city" where Saint San Nicolas will observe us with compassion. Thanks in atrance, Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From carlossn at ui.boe.es Thu Feb 21 10:12:38 2002 From: carlossn at ui.boe.es (Carlos Santamarina Novillo) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:12:38 +0100 Subject: ixtlahua/debt Message-ID: Yes, I think too that the “metaphysical considerations” had obscured the social reality about human sacrifice. I think that about this issue is very appropriate the use of pike’s terms emics (the native sources’ reasoning) and etics (the scholar’s conclusions), as in many other cases. I am very interested about teteuctin as teteo, or rulers as gods. Can you specify your sources about the divine consideration of rulers? Thank you - Carlos Santamarina "Richard Haly" ha escrito: > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:22:05 -0700 > Subject: Re: ixtlahua/debt > From: richard haly > To: Frances Karttunen , > > I can likewise take issue with most representations of sacrifice as > debt-payement to gods when concepts such as debt, payment, and gods go > > unexamined. From my research, nextlahualiztli makes most sense as > payment to > the rulers (likewise teotl). When people say that the Aztecs thought > the > Spaniards were "gods" - teules- it makes them (the Aztecs) seem pretty > > credulous when we think of "gods" in any Judeo-Christian manner. > Nonetheless, when one considers that they called their own rulers > "gods" and > treated them as such - not looking in to the brightness of the face of > the > emperor/sun - then any debt-payment to gods can be a debt-payment to > rulers. All sacrifice phenomena - and all festival and pilgrimage > phenomena > as well - make much more sense when one tries to understand them in > this > world and not in some metaphysical or "religious" way. (Religious is > in > quotation marks because most people think religion is about > "spiritual" > stuff and not "material" stuff because that is what their own > religions have > told them. That is not the case in a culture of embodied ancestors - > Mesoamerica, for one.) Sacrifice is much more like kula-exchange among > > Trobriand islanders. An explanation of sacrifice whose dynamics do not > rely > on metaphysical language or a transcendent agent has a greater chance > of > making real sense. > > Richard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Fri Feb 22 17:28:19 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:28:19 -0600 Subject: English > Nahuatl translator Message-ID: I am posting this at the request of the person who sent it to me originally. Please DO NOT reply to the whole list, reply directly to the poster: "senthilnathan" From: "senthilnathan" To: Subject: English > Nahuatl translator Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 03:52:15 +0530 Dear Mr J F Schwaller, We, Globalingo, are a translation company, now seeking an English > Nahuatl translator for a short translation work. We hope that you may help us to find a Nahuatl translator for us. Sorry for sending this unsolicitied/disturbing mail. We are specializing translation services in ethnic/minority/rare languages. We seek your nice help in this regard. Thanks for your time and Best Regards Senthil Nathan CE Globalingo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 26, Arcot Road Chennai 600028 INDIA ph:91-44-6540347 email: senthilnathan at eth.net web: http://www.globalingo.com From MPSpillers at aol.com Sat Feb 23 00:56:54 2002 From: MPSpillers at aol.com (MPSpillers at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 19:56:54 EST Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE? Message-ID: Hi, folks - Can someone please please PLEASE tell me how to unsubscribe from this list? Thanks, mpspillers at aol.com From malinal at evhr.net Mon Feb 18 09:38:37 2002 From: malinal at evhr.net (Alexis Wimmer) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:38:37 +0100 Subject: tecuichpotzin Message-ID: Kevin, Miahuaxoxhitzin is a mispelling for Miahuaxochitzin Miahuatl or miyahuatl means corn tassel or spikelets. Best, Alexis http://www.ifrance.com/nahuatl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin P Smith" To: Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 12:35 AM Subject: tecuichpotzin > Dear Nahuatlatos, > > Another name question. In an article on Isabel de Moctezuma, D. Chipman > follows Conway, calling her Tecuichpotzin. Is this a metathetic mispelling > that should be read Tecuipochtzin, meaning "royal young lady" or is there > another possible interpretation? > > Secondly, Alva Ixlilxochitl refers to her as Miahuaxoxhitzin. Could > someone please offer a translation of the form /miawa/ ? > > Thanks in advance. > > -- > Kevin Paul Smith > University of California Santa Barbara > ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu > From js9211 at csc.albany.edu Mon Feb 4 14:17:15 2002 From: js9211 at csc.albany.edu (SANCHEZ JOANNA M) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:17:15 -0500 Subject: Un recado se perdio Message-ID: Disculpame todos- pero alguien me mando un recado en espanol y se perdio sin que pudiera leerlo. Tenia algun attachment. Me interesa mucho y siempre quisiera saber que decia- me lo puede mandar de nuevo? Gracias. Joanna From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Mon Feb 4 17:11:18 2002 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:11:18 -0000 Subject: online Aztec king lists & histories In-Reply-To: <003201c1a37e$271e2ba0$545727c8@ATIANA> Message-ID: Please where on the WWW is a good online list and description of the Aztec emperors and their histories including dates? From liccuriel at hotmail.com Mon Feb 4 17:38:23 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:38:23 +0000 Subject: online Aztec king lists & histories Message-ID: I have this Document, that I can send you - of course if such is permitted by the policies of this nahuat-l group: "RELACIONES ORIGINALES DE CHALCO AMAQUEMECAN" Escritas por DON FRANCISCO DE SAN ANT?N MU??N CHIMALPAHIN CUAUHTLEHUANITZIN. PALEOGRAFIADAS Y TRADUCIDAS DEL N?HUATL, CON UNA INTRODUCCI?N DE S. RENDON. This document is in Word, has an extension of 238 p. and about 700 kb size. In Spanish. I contains the history, and dates (in both nahuatl calendar and Spanish calendar) of the Aztec people. Please confirm. Elisabeth Curiel >From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk >To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu >Subject: online Aztec king lists & histories >Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:11:18 -0000 > >Please where on the WWW is a good online list and description of >the Aztec emperors and their histories including dates? _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos es la manera m?s sencilla de compartir, editar e imprimir sus fotos favoritas. http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Feb 4 20:12:22 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 14:12:22 -0600 Subject: online Aztec king lists & histories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 05:38 PM 2/4/02 +0000, you wrote: >"RELACIONES ORIGINALES DE CHALCO AMAQUEMECAN" >Escritas por DON FRANCISCO DE SAN ANT?N MU??N CHIMALPAHIN >CUAUHTLEHUANITZIN. PALEOGRAFIADAS Y TRADUCIDAS DEL N?HUATL, >CON UNA INTRODUCCI?N DE S. RENDON. > >This document is in Word, has an extension of 238 p. and about 700 kb size. >In Spanish. Please do NOT send it to the list. It is too large and probably will be rejected by the server. If subscribers are interested they should contact you privately. J. F. Schwaller List Owner John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Tue Feb 5 17:25:09 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:25:09 -0500 Subject: Follow-up questions Message-ID: Nahuatlahtos, I would like to know how in the Nahuatl dialect you know a person says 'thank you' and 'good-bye'. tlaxtlahui ihuan tottasqueh, Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu From swood at darkwing.uoregon.edu Tue Feb 5 19:50:20 2002 From: swood at darkwing.uoregon.edu (Stephanie Wood) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:50:20 -0800 Subject: Nahuatl documents, AGN Message-ID: I am wondering if anyone has any news about the digitization of Nahuatl documents (texts and images) at the AGN de Mexico? We have a group interested in collaborating in this, if our help would be desired. We would also help write for a FIDEMEXUSA grant and other grants. Thanks, Stephanie Wood University of Oregon swood at darkwing.uoregon.edu From liccuriel at hotmail.com Wed Feb 6 23:37:27 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:37:27 +0000 Subject: online Aztec king lists & histories Message-ID: Ms Consuelo: I have been gathering this material since many many years ago (1982 on), and have scanned and digitalized it by myself. Also, I have acquired them from Libraries -from Mazatlan, Mexico City, Guadalajara, Oaxaca, etc.- and also, from friends I met in Mexico City; maybe someone knows about some of them: Gutierre Tibon and Nikito Nipongo (a nickname of course) who used to write in Excelsior. Unfortunately, I stopped seeing them since 1988, when I had to move to another city. Some of my precious documents are not available in the Internet or any other place. Also, when I started all this, I used to spend my salary in rare beautiful documents, like a huge Borbonic Codex copy, and sort of that. By now I am planning to become rich and buy that american edition of the Florentine codex they are selling on line. Does someone in the group has it? Yes?? oh, can you please tell me if it is in Nahuatl and English? Is it worth the million hundred pesos it costs? And Consuelo, a good place to find this kind of material historical material is http://cervantesvirtual.com. I warn you that if you don't speak Spanish, you may get lost there, since the designing of the site is really clumsy, but the content is the best in the net by far. Those guys are really good. Greetings Elisabeth Curiel AKA "Lisita" (Ok guys, I know someone of you doesn't like my nickname, that's because you lack sense of humor) >From: Consuelo Collard >To: "'Elisabeth Curiel'" >Subject: RE: online Aztec king lists & histories >Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:37:49 -0800 > >Ms. Curiel; > >Thank you very much for your prompt response to my request. I assure you I >am interested in the document only for personal study and investigation, >and >really appreciate your generous help. > >I'd like to ask you if you created the document in word yourself, or >obtained it on line, and if so, could you let me know the website? I have >been searching for websites that contain such historical documents to no >avail. It seems my only sources are the local public library, which has >very limited resources on this subject, and the libraries in the >Universities in the area, which I intend to visit once I exhaust what the >public library has to offer. > >I will appreciate any information you may be able to offer. Thanks again. > >Consuelo Collard >Management Analyst >Social Services Agency >County of Santa Clara > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Elisabeth Curiel [mailto:liccuriel at hotmail.com] >Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 6:03 PM >To: Consuelo.Collard at ssa.co.santa-clara.ca.us >Subject: RE: online Aztec king lists & histories > > >Hello: > >Here I am sending the document. Please use it only for personal >investigation. > > >From: Consuelo Collard > >To: "'Elisabeth Curiel'" > >Subject: RE: online Aztec king lists & histories > >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:45:19 -0800 > > > >Ms. Curiel; > > > >I would be very interested in receiving a copy of the document you >mention > >in your message. > > > >Thank you, > > > >Consuelo Collard > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Elisabeth Curiel [mailto:liccuriel at hotmail.com] > >Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 9:38 AM > >To: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk > >Cc: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu > >Subject: Re: online Aztec king lists & histories > > > > > >I have this Document, that I can send you - of course if such is >permitted > >by the policies of this nahuat-l group: > > > >"RELACIONES ORIGINALES DE CHALCO AMAQUEMECAN" > >Escritas por DON FRANCISCO DE SAN ANT?N MU??N CHIMALPAHIN > >CUAUHTLEHUANITZIN. > > > >PALEOGRAFIADAS Y TRADUCIDAS DEL N?HUATL, > >CON UNA INTRODUCCI?N DE S. RENDON. > > > >This document is in Word, has an extension of 238 p. and about 700 kb >size. > > > >In Spanish. > > > >I contains the history, and dates (in both nahuatl calendar and Spanish > >calendar) of the Aztec people. > > > >Please confirm. > > > >Elisabeth Curiel > > > > > > >From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk > > >To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu > > >Subject: online Aztec king lists & histories > > >Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:11:18 -0000 > > > > > >Please where on the WWW is a good online list and description of > > >the Aztec emperors and their histories including dates? > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >MSN Photos es la manera m?s sencilla de compartir, editar e imprimir sus > >fotos favoritas. http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN Photos es la manera m?s sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus fotos: >http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx _________________________________________________________________ Con MSN Hotmail s?mese al servicio de correo electr?nico m?s grande del mundo. http://www.hotmail.com/ES From EAF61862 at mediaone.net Thu Feb 7 00:47:23 2002 From: EAF61862 at mediaone.net (Eric Fierro) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:47:23 -0800 Subject: La Piedra Del Sol Message-ID: Does anyone know where I can get a copy of La piedra Del Sol by Raul Noriega? From cipactonal at starmedia.com Thu Feb 7 20:38:32 2002 From: cipactonal at starmedia.com (cipactonal at starmedia.com) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:38:32 EST Subject: Termina servicio. Message-ID: Listeros: El anyo pasado se comenzo a dar un servicio de traduccion de documentos en nahuatl al espanyol para las comunidades campesinas. Hoy termina ese servicio. Bajo los argumentos de que traducir esos documentos es darle "demasiada" importancia al nahuatl, y que el Archivo General de la Nacion, Mexico, no es una institucion que se dedique a estudios linguisticos, la labor se acaba. Sin embargo continua la busqueda de documentos en nahuatl del fondo documental Tierras. Esa busqueda tiene como objtivo digitalizar dicho material para ponerlo a dispisicion de los investigadores. Pongo a su disposicion mis servicios para traducir documentos nahuatl-espa?ol,claro, cobrando los respectivos honorarios. Saludos a todos. Ignacio Silva. cipactonal at starmedia.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Obt?n gratis tu cuenta de correo en StarMedia Email. ?Reg?strate hoy mismo!. http://www.starmedia.com/email ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Feb 8 18:22:02 2002 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:22:02 -0600 Subject: Un toponimo tlaxcalteco Message-ID: Estimados listeros: En el fragmento 5 del Codice de Huamantla (BNAH 35-2) aparece la glosa "nicah Antlacaltepech Auh cen [borrado]". Carmen Aguilera, en su edicion de este manuscrito (1984), transcribe y traduce el toponimo asi: "Atlancatepec, 'Lugar del cerro donde termina o esta el agua'". No entiendo donde ella ve la idea de "terminar". Parece que deriva el verbo "estar" en su traducci?n de la silaba "ca", pero no he visto semejante construccion en otros toponimos. Tengo la tentacion de agregar una "L" y reconstruir la palabra como "Atlancaltepec", de esta manera: A:(TL) sustantivo "agua" - TLAN posposici?n "debajo de"/"junto a"/"entre"/"en" - CAL(LI) sustantivo "casa" - TE:PE(TL) sustantivo "cerro" - C(O)posposici?n: "en"/"dentro"/"sobre". De esta manera el significado podr?a ser "sobre el cerro de la casa, junto al agua". ?Que piensan ustedes? Gracias de antemano por su ayuda, David Wright P.D. En muchas de las glosas aparece la variante "nicah" para el adverbio locativo NICA:N. ?Alguien ha visto esto en otros documentos, de la regi?n de Tlaxcala u otra? El hecho de que Huamantla haya sido un pueblo otomi quiz? tenga que ver con algunas de las variantes ortogr?ficas. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Feb 8 18:47:15 2002 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:47:15 -0600 Subject: Atlancaltepec Message-ID: Listeros: Tengo una aclaracion sobre el mensaje que acabo de enviar: vi otra vez el facsimil del Codice de Huamantla, y la "L" de ANTLACALTEPECH ya esta ahi; no hace falta restituirla. Me confundi viendo la transcripcion de Aguilera. Las dos preguntas que les hice no cambian; todavia tengo las mismas dudas. David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Feb 9 04:04:41 2002 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 23:04:41 -0500 Subject: Un toponimo tlaxcalteco In-Reply-To: <001e01c1b0cd$846859a0$acbee994@dcwright> Message-ID: David, No puedo evaluar el analisis total de "Antlacaltepech", pero si' puedo aclarar de do'nde Carmen saca la idea de 'terminar'. "tlan" es la forma que toma la rai'z "tlami" 'terminar' en el prete'rito: tlami se acaba (o)-tlan se acabo' De "tlami" viene "tlan-ca-yotl" 'lo completo'. Y, por supuesto, "ah-tlan-ca-yotl" 'lo incompleto' Se escribe igual "atlancayotl" 'lo marino', pero es "a:-tlan-ca-yotl" (con a:-tl y con la posposicio'n -tlan), no "ah-...". Tocante a "nicah" por "nican", la pe'rdida de 'n' final es comu'n en los diccionarios de Molina, en el Co'dice Florentino, y en el habla de hoy en di'a. No creo que hay que buscarle el origen en el otomi'. (Ocurre en le habla de Guerrero, Morelos, etc.). Saludos, Joe On Fri, 8 Feb 2002, David Wright wrote: > En el fragmento 5 del Codice de Huamantla (BNAH 35-2) aparece la glosa > "nicah Antlacaltepech Auh cen [borrado]". Carmen Aguilera, en su edicion > de este manuscrito (1984), transcribe y traduce el toponimo asi: > "Atlancatepec, 'Lugar del cerro donde termina o esta el agua'". No > entiendo donde ella ve la idea de "terminar". Parece que deriva el verbo > "estar" en su traducci?n de la silaba "ca", pero no he visto semejante > construccion en otros toponimos. Tengo la tentacion de agregar una "L" y > reconstruir la palabra como "Atlancaltepec", de esta manera: A:(TL) > sustantivo "agua" - TLAN posposici?n "debajo de"/"junto a"/"entre"/"en" > - CAL(LI) sustantivo "casa" - TE:PE(TL) sustantivo "cerro" - > C(O)posposici?n: "en"/"dentro"/"sobre". De esta manera el significado > podr?a ser "sobre el cerro de la casa, junto al agua". > P.D. En muchas de las glosas aparece la variante "nicah" para el > adverbio locativo NICA:N. ?Alguien ha visto esto en otros documentos, de > la regi?n de Tlaxcala u otra? El hecho de que Huamantla haya sido un > pueblo otomi quiz? tenga que ver con algunas de las variantes > ortogr?ficas. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu Fri Feb 8 21:11:19 2002 From: ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu (Kevin P Smith) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:11:19 -0800 Subject: tetlahuehuequiti Message-ID: Dear Nahuatlatos, Don Pedro Tetlahuehuetzquititzin was apparently the eldest son of Nezahualpilli, excepting the one the tlatoani had executed for adultery, yet he was the last of the legitimate heirs to rule. He finally attained the rulership in 1531 or 1532, replacing the youngest son, Yoyontzin. My question is: Could his name be an indication of his shortcomings as a possible ruler? Molina defines Tetlahuehuetzquiti as "chocorrero, truchan, juglar" and Andersen and Dibble translate it as "buffoon" in the FC. Just how seriously were sardonic nicknames assigned? And if it was a serious appelation, why would he not change it in maturity? Thanks in advance for any ideas or information on Aztec naming among the pipiltin. Best, -- Kevin Paul Smith ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu From notoca at hotmail.com Sat Feb 9 14:47:05 2002 From: notoca at hotmail.com (Chichiltic Coyotl) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:47:05 +0800 Subject: Un toponimo tlaxcalteco Message-ID: Hi I have a couple of questions / queries re: tlan in this post: Would Carman be using tlan (derived from tlami). Tlami meaning to come to an end, to be consumed, to finish?? Also, I was wondering about your usage/translation of -tlan David. Firstly, would this not be an unusual position to place a locative suffix for a place name. Locative suffixes usually go at the end of compounds(from what I've learnt and seen - my experience is limited and I could be wrong)?? However, the end of this compound would end up with two locative suffixes, -c being the second. This could suggest that a locative suffix -tlan would not be part of the structure of this compound?? Secondly, regarding your translation of -tlan "debajo de"/"junto a"/"entre"/"en". Would this suffix usage (for place names) usually require the ligature -ti-? There is another -tla:n suffix meaning "place of, at". This one has a long vowel length. I still think it is out of place??? Is my understanding of this correct??? >From: David Wright >Carmen Aguilera, en su edicion de este manuscrito (1984), transcribe y >traduce el toponimo asi: "Atlancatepec, 'Lugar del cerro donde termina o >esta el agua'". No entiendo donde ella ve la idea de "terminar". como "Atlancaltepec", de esta manera: A:(TL) sustantivo "agua" - TLAN posposici?n "debajo de"/"junto a"/"entre"/"en" - CAL(LI) sustantivo "casa" - TE:PE(TL) sustantivo "cerro" - C(O)posposici?n: "en"/"dentro"/"sobre". De esta manera el significado podr?a ser "sobre el cerro de la casa, junto al agua". > >?Que piensan ustedes? > >Gracias de antemano por su ayuda, > >David Wright > >P.D. En muchas de las glosas aparece la variante "nicah" para el adverbio >locativo NICA:N. ?Alguien ha visto esto en otros documentos, de la regi?n >de Tlaxcala u otra? El hecho de que Huamantla haya sido un pueblo otomi >quiz? tenga que ver con algunas de las variantes ortogr?ficas. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Feb 9 18:49:55 2002 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:49:55 -0600 Subject: Toponimo tlaxcalteco Message-ID: Estimados Sergio y Chichiltic Coyotl: Muchas gracias por sus sugerencias. No habia pensado en TLAMI, que me parece m?s adecuado que TLA:N, a menos que se tratara de un toponimo doble, A:TLA:N CALTE:PEC, que tal vez escrito asi (con espacio, que no hay en la glosa original) se veria menos extrano. Sobre -TLAN y -TLA:N, tiene raz?n Ch. C.; debi de haber puesto -TLA:N, que no tiene el significado de "debajo de". Lo peor es que hace poco me habia fijado en el asunto y habia elaborado unas fichas para tener los datos a la mano; luego no las vi con detenimiento, a pesar de que las tenia a la vista cuando redacte mi pregunta. Gracias por llamarme la atencion sobre este descuido. Acabo de mejorar las fichas mencionadas, y me gustaria compartir lo que encontre con los demas; por eso contesto a la lista en general. He visto este tema antes en NAHUAT-L, pero tengo dos o tres cositas que agregar. En el diccionario analitico de Karttunen (pp. 282, 283) encontramos para -TLAN (con ligadura -TI-) las equivalencias "below", "next to (the base of)", "among" y, citando a Carochi, "junto a", "entre", "debajo de" y "en". Para -TLA:N (sin -TI-) encontramos "place of" y "at", mas "junto" (de Carochi) y "entre" (de Tetelcingo). En el texto Foundation Course in Nahuatl grammar de Campbell y Karttunen, se contradice el diccionario de Karttunen, traduciendo -TLAN (con -TI-) como "near" y "among", -TLA:N (sin -TI-) como "below" y "next to the base of" (vol. II, p. 18). Para asegurarme de que la contradiccion en el Foundation Course era, como parecia, un simple descuido, consulte a Carochi (f. 19r; p. 80 en la ed. de Lockhart de 2001); ahi se deja claro que -TLAN (con -TI-) tiene el significado de "debajo de"; se traduce esta posposicion con cinco palabras latinas: "apud" (junto a/cerca de/ante), "iuxta" (cerca/junto), "inter" (entre/en/enmedio de), "infra" (debajo de) e "in" (en), y en los ejemplos se usan las equivalencias castellanas "junto a", "entre" y "debajo de". Para -TLA:N (sin -TI-, aunque no dice que la vocal es larga hasta despues, en la f. 56r y v) Carochi pone "en", "junto a", "entre" y "a". Es evidente que ambas posposiciones tienen significados que se traslapan; la diferencia mas notable es que una, -TLAN (con -TI-) incluye el significado de relacion espacial "debajo de", y se relaciona con el adverbio TLANI, "abajo o debajo" (Molina 1571: II, f. 129r). Carochi, particularmente, nos proporciona una lista amplia de alternativas de donde escoger, segun los requerimientos del contexto, cuando traducimos palabras con estas dos posposiciones al castellano: -TLAN (con -TI-) ante, cerca de, debajo de, en, en medio de, entre, junto a -TLA:N (sin -TI-) a, en, entre, junto a Saludos, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Feb 9 22:46:50 2002 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 17:46:50 -0500 Subject: Un toponimo tlaxcalteco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Chichiltic Coyotzin, I share your expectation about the location of locative suffixes, but they can surprise us. One way that they do the unexpected is by really acting like nouns. For example, in a modern dialect that I can't remember right now, the postposition "-ican" (as in "icampa nocal" 'behind my house') is verbed on to supply the verb "icanhuia" -- so "antechicanhuia" means 'y'all follow us [supply us with "behind"]. From the Florentine Codex come the following: te-a-tlan-huia he drowns people (he supplies people with a water place) te-a-tlan-mictia-ya she drowned people (using "atlan" as an adverb) o-a-tlan-papacho-loh-queh they were submerged repeatedly in water (adverb use again) m[o]-a-tlan-huih-queh they fell into water (they supplied themselves with a water place) qui-meca-ti-tlan-tlalia they place it within ropes (apparently "that other" -tla:n) Saludos, Joe p.s. I'm sure that someone will come up with examples of two locative suffixes -- besides "icampa nocal" (above): n[o]-ican-pa behind me no my ican behind pa towards > > Also, I was wondering about your usage/translation of -tlan David. Firstly, > would this not be an unusual position to place a locative suffix for a place > name. Locative suffixes usually go at the end of compounds(from what I've > learnt and seen - my experience is limited and I could be wrong)?? However, > the end of this compound would end up with two locative suffixes, -c being > the second. This could suggest that a locative suffix -tlan would not be > part of the structure of this compound?? > From mdmorris at indiana.edu Sun Feb 10 01:35:12 2002 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 20:35:12 -0500 Subject: Toponimo tlaxcalteco In-Reply-To: <00bc01c1b19a$94e06b60$61c841c8@dcwright> Message-ID: Disculpe que olvido precisamente donde estamos en esta linea, pero Atlangatepec es efectivamente donde nace el rio Zahuapan lo que es uno de los afluyentes del rio Atoyac-rio Balsas. Hoy en dia hay una presa alli que abasta un gran parte del territorio Tlaxcalteca. A mano, no puedo citar otro ejemplo de nicah, pero creo que moztla nozo huiptla te enviare otras muestras, y no es de maravillar como un tlaxcalteca es capaz de hacer cualquiere cosa con un idioma y mas cuando recuerdas el recto juicio que planteo Motolinia acerca de los Otomi :) ye nitzinquiza, miec tzontecone mitzmaca Mark Morris P.S. No se David cuanto de documentos en nahuatl tengo de Atlangatepec, HUamantla y Soltepec, pero los que tengo son tuyos si los quieres. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Feb 10 19:25:57 2002 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:25:57 -0600 Subject: ticaltitzintizocac Message-ID: Muchas gracias a Mark y Joe por sus comentarios utilisimos. Ya casi termine de analizar y traducir las 25 glosas legibles o semilegibles en nahuatl del Codice de Huamantla y las 22 glosas en el mismo idioma del Codice de Huichapan. Para poderlo hacer pase alrededor de 400 horas ensenandome la fonologia, morfologia y sintaxis del nahuatl novohispano, pero como pueden ver, todavia me hace falta mucha practica. La mayor parte de las glosas se dejaron leer sin problemas; los amables listeros ya me ayudaron con una de las mas problematicas. Solo me queda una glosa sin resolver. Si alguien de la lista me puede ayudar, podre pasar tranquilamente a la siguiente fase de mi proyecto. Primero, el contexto: en la f. 26r (p. 51) del Codice de Huichapan, arriba de la fecha 3 Casa (sic pro 2 Casa), 1481, hay una pintura de un bulto mortuorio en una silla con respaldo cubierto de piel de jaguar; de la cabeza del bulto sale un chorro de agua: esto obviamente significa la muerte del tlatoani mexica Axayacatl, "cara de agua", identificado en la glosa otomi como Ehmudehe, escrita en otras partes del ms. Ehmidehe, con identico significado: "cara de agua". Al lado hay otro senor en el mismo tipo de asiento, con un grafema antroponimico enfrente de la cara: dos circulos concentricos rodeados por muchos puntitos negros. Es evidente que se trata de la ascension al poder de "Tizoc" (o TEZOC, atendiendo a la equivalencia de Molina de "sangrador"), sucesor de Axayacatl en el trono de Tenochtitlan. En lugar del signo antroponimico usual, una pierna con puntitos, se pinto lo que parece un agujero con puntitos. La glosa alfabetica al lado del grafema antroponimico dice: TICALTITZINTIZOCAC (la "z" en la penultima silaba es una cedilla en el ms.) Despues de varias horas de busqueda no he podido leer esta glosa. Solo veo dos cosas: (1) el "pseudosufijo" honorifico/afectivo TZIN(TLI) y (2) la palabra TEZOC, escrita con "i" en lugar de "e", relacionada con el verbo ZO:, "agujerarse para sangrar". No tengo idea de lo que pudieran significar las silabas TICALTI... ni tampoco la terminacion ...AC. No se si alguien tiene alguna sugerencia. Muchas gracias por su paciencia. Saludos, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdmorris at indiana.edu Sun Feb 10 23:08:10 2002 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:08:10 -0500 Subject: ticaltitzintizocac In-Reply-To: <003b01c1b268$c7a97900$bfc841c8@dcwright> Message-ID: Again confessing not having paid attention, I just noticed that the following very well designed web site has a good bit of information about Mexica rulers and such: http://www.arts-history.mx I also would like to mention that Luis Reyes Garcia's edition of Juan Bautista's Anales has been published by CIESAS. sincerely, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Feb 11 19:12:25 2002 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:12:25 -0600 Subject: Ticaltitzintizocac Message-ID: Estimados Mark y Sergio: Gracias por su apoyo continuo y sus sugerencias (en la lista y fuera de ella) sobre la glosa TICALTITZINTIZOCAC en el Codice de Huichapan. Despues de darle muchas vueltas al asunto, me parece que la sugerencia de ustedes, de que la solucion podria ser con el verbo CALTIA:, es la mejor opcion. La unica forma inflexionada que funciona para mi, sin tomar demasiadas libertades con su forma, es esta: TICCALTIH TZI:NTI (TE)ZO:CAC TICCALTIH (TI prefijo de sujeto 2a. persona singular + C prefijo de objeto directo 3a. persona singular + CALTI raiz preterita del verbo clase 3 CALTIA: "edificar casa para alguien" + H sufijo preterito clase 3) "tu le edificaste una casa" (me hubiera gustado mas con "nosotros", pero tendria que ser TICCALTIHQUE) TZI:NTI (3a. persona singular/plural presente de TZI:NTI, "tener comienzo"): "tiene comienzo"; si tomo la libertad de "restituir" un sufijo preterito que no esta en la glosa, puede ser TZI:NTIC, "?l tuvo comienzo") TEZO: TEZO:C y TEZO:ANI son sustantivos para "sangrador", seg?n Molina; el morfema basico aqu? es ZO: "sangrarse", por lo que no es indispensable agregar la silaba TE. (La justificacion para agregarla seria que se haya asimilado por el "traslape" con la silaba TI antecedente, o por descuido a la hora de redactar, pero aqui probablemente violo el principio de fray Guillermo de Occam.) Todo esto se relaciona evidentemente con las etimologias mas aceptadas del nombre del tlatoani mexica Tizoc y con los diferentes grafemas pictoricos antroponimicos que se usan en los codices para expresarlo. Ahora viene la mosca en la sopa: todavia no se que hacer con las dos letras AC al final de la glosa. Si alguien ve algun error, me encantaria saberlo. Si tienen sugerencias adicionales, estas seran bienvenidas y agradecidas. Lo mas probable es que mi lectura este equivocada, pero tal vez tenga alguna aproximacion con la idea que tuvo en su cabeza el glosista del codice. Saludos, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From malinal at evhr.net Sun Feb 10 09:57:15 2002 From: malinal at evhr.net (Alexis Wimmer) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:57:15 +0100 Subject: Ticaltitzintizocac Message-ID: No conosco el Codice de Huichapan y no s? en cual modo ha costumbre de transcribir el nahuatl. Pero sin buscar formas verbales en esta glosa se puede articularla altramente. TICALTITZINTIZOCAC = TICAL TITZIN TIZOCAC TICAL tu eres su casa (T(i) prefijo de sujeto 2a. persona singular + I:CAL) TITZIN tu eres su comienzo TIZOCAC tu eres sus sandalias (de palma). Este ultimo no esta bien claro. Debe derivar de CAC-TLI (I:CAC, su sandalia) pero ZOCACTLI no esta atestado, pudiera venir de ZO:CACTLI, con ZO: que se encontra en ZO:TO:LIN, ZO:YA:TL, palma. Saludos. Alexis Wimmer http://www.ifrance.com/nahuatl ----- Original Message ----- From: David Wright To: Nahuat-l (mensajes) Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 8:12 PM Subject: Ticaltitzintizocac Estimados Mark y Sergio: Gracias por su apoyo continuo y sus sugerencias (en la lista y fuera de ella) sobre la glosa TICALTITZINTIZOCAC en el Codice de Huichapan. Despues de darle muchas vueltas al asunto, me parece que la sugerencia de ustedes, de que la solucion podria ser con el verbo CALTIA:, es la mejor opcion. La unica forma inflexionada que funciona para mi, sin tomar demasiadas libertades con su forma, es esta: TICCALTIH TZI:NTI (TE)ZO:CAC TICCALTIH (TI prefijo de sujeto 2a. persona singular + C prefijo de objeto directo 3a. persona singular + CALTI raiz preterita del verbo clase 3 CALTIA: "edificar casa para alguien" + H sufijo preterito clase 3) "tu le edificaste una casa" (me hubiera gustado mas con "nosotros", pero tendria que ser TICCALTIHQUE) TZI:NTI (3a. persona singular/plural presente de TZI:NTI, "tener comienzo"): "tiene comienzo"; si tomo la libertad de "restituir" un sufijo preterito que no esta en la glosa, puede ser TZI:NTIC, "?l tuvo comienzo") TEZO: TEZO:C y TEZO:ANI son sustantivos para "sangrador", seg?n Molina; el morfema basico aqu? es ZO: "sangrarse", por lo que no es indispensable agregar la silaba TE. (La justificacion para agregarla seria que se haya asimilado por el "traslape" con la silaba TI antecedente, o por descuido a la hora de redactar, pero aqui probablemente violo el principio de fray Guillermo de Occam.) Todo esto se relaciona evidentemente con las etimologias mas aceptadas del nombre del tlatoani mexica Tizoc y con los diferentes grafemas pictoricos antroponimicos que se usan en los codices para expresarlo. Ahora viene la mosca en la sopa: todavia no se que hacer con las dos letras AC al final de la glosa. Si alguien ve algun error, me encantaria saberlo. Si tienen sugerencias adicionales, estas seran bienvenidas y agradecidas. Lo mas probable es que mi lectura este equivocada, pero tal vez tenga alguna aproximacion con la idea que tuvo en su cabeza el glosista del codice. Saludos, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MPSpillers at aol.com Tue Feb 12 04:47:38 2002 From: MPSpillers at aol.com (MPSpillers at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:47:38 EST Subject: digest/unsubscribe? Message-ID: Hello, Can someone let me know how to switch to receiving the "digest" version of this newsgroup, or how to unsubscribe entirely? Thanks, MPS From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at Tue Feb 12 19:07:02 2002 From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:07:02 +0100 Subject: Cultural Change Confereence Vienna June 2002: Abstracts Message-ID: Conference "Cultural Change in 16th Century Mexico " (Goettweig - Vienna, June 6 - 9, 2002) Participants and abstracts: http://www.univie.ac.at/meso/conference/abstracts.htm (submission deadline February 15, 2002) Workshop on Nahua codices (Vienna, June 10 - 13): http://www.univie.ac.at/meso/conference/workshop.htm For more information please see our website or contact me via e-mail. With best regards, Juergen Stowasser -- Juergen Stowasser Burggasse 114/2/8 A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a Austria tel: 01/ 524 54 60 v 0676/ 398 66 79 http://www.univie.ac.at/meso -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at nantucket.net Fri Feb 15 13:04:20 2002 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:04:20 -0500 Subject: ixtlahua/debt Message-ID: In Estudios de cultura nahuatl 32 Ulrich K?hler takes issue with the concept of nextlahualiztli 'sacrifice' as literally debt-repayment, despite its obvious derivation from the verb ixtlahua. He is exercised about this and states that , "this article is written in English, because most of the erroneous recent statements on an alleged Aztec debt-repayment to their gods have been published in that language. Hopefully, further diffusion of this nonsense can still be stopped." The main targets of K's criticism are elaborated hypotheses about Aztec belief systems, but he traces the roots of these hypotheses back to what he believes are etymological misunderstandings, particularly a mistranslation by Simeon of what Molina meant by "pagar lo que se debe." K feels that Dibble and Anderson misrepresented the sense of nextlahualiztli in their English translation of the Florentine Codex and that we English speakers have all followed D&A down the primrose path first blazed by Simeon. K's arguments are well worth examining. If they have merit, interpretations of blood sacrifice as debt-repayment should be reined back. It would be good to get a list from Joe of contexts in which ixtlahua is used in order to help evaluate K.'s criticism. Fran Karttunen From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Feb 15 13:31:19 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:31:19 -0500 Subject: ixtlilli In-Reply-To: <200202151305.g1FD55g02241@ns1.nantucket.net> Message-ID: Does anyone recognize as a particular substance? I do not have the word in my database. tlaxtlahui, Michael McCafferty From liccuriel at hotmail.com Fri Feb 15 16:30:08 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:30:08 +0000 Subject: ixtlilli Message-ID: Hello Michael: I don't know the context of what you read, but "ixtlilli", if we talk of a "substance" is probably a compound of ixtli = face tlilli = black color some face blackening. Elisabeth Curiel >From: Michael Mccafferty >To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu >Subject: Re: ixtlilli >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:31:19 -0500 (EST) > > >Does anyone recognize as a particular substance? I do not have >the word in my database. > > >tlaxtlahui, > >Michael McCafferty > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos es la manera m?s sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus fotos: http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Feb 15 17:25:16 2002 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:25:16 -0500 Subject: ixtlahua/debt In-Reply-To: <200202151305.g1FD55g02241@ns1.nantucket.net> Message-ID: Fran, The first part is just a glossary of words from the FC when "ixtla:hui" has been identified so far *and* the English gloss is already entered. The second part (after '*****') is a concordance of words which contain identified "ixtla:hui", regardless of whether they have English glosses. Best regards, Joe p.s. Oops! The version of the vocabulary includes even words without English glosses...... ixtla:hui*** [i]xtlahua , mo-. ; his debt is paid; it is paid; it is repaid. . [i]xtlahua , omo-. . . [i]xtlahua , tla-. he pays his debt. . [i]xtlahual , ine-. his offering. . [i]xtlahual , inne-. their offering. . [i]xtlahualiztli , ne-. debt-payment; debt-paying; debt payment; payment of a debt; act of paying a debt. . [i]xtlahualli , ne-. ; debt-payment; debt payment; offering. . [i]xtlahualoya , ne-. there was paying of the debt. . [i]xtlahualoya , onne-. there was paying of the debt. . [i]xtlahualti , ne-. . . [i]xtlahuaya , mo-. ; it was repaid; it was recompensed. . [i]xtlahuaya , ontla-. . . [i]xtlahuazque , tla-. they will be in debt, they will pay. . [i]xtlahuili , quintla-. . . [i]xtlauh , ohmo-. it was repaid. . [i]xtlauh , ommo-. a debt was repaid. . [i]xtlauh , tla-. he paid his debt. . [i]xtlauhtihui , hualmo-. they go paying a debt. . ixtlahua , con-. it meets the obligations of it. . ixtlahui. it is satisfied, it is complied with; it is satified. . ixtlauh , o-. it was satisfied, it was fulfilled. . ixtlauh , on-. it was repaid. . ixtlauhto. . . tlaxtlahua. he pays his debt. . tlazonextlahualti. precious [blood-]offerings. . ********************* ixtla:hui 1. *conixtlahua*. auh zatepan imellel onquizaz achitzinca, onmitotizque, ontlatotonizque, in xochitl, in iyetl, in tilmatli, in maxtlatl, inic conixtlahua, cohuayotl, ontlayolpachihuitia, inic amo itolozque, ca zan moyolitlacoa, ahtlahuelmati. and after they had rejoiced for a little while, they would be provided with dancing, and they would set out in the sun for them the flowers, the tobacco, the capes, and the breech clouts, in order to meet the obligations of banqueting, lest it be said [of the host] that the guests were slighted and found discontent there. (b.4 f.11 c.37 p.122) 2. *hualmo[i]xtlauhtihui*. in izquican tehtzacualli, zan onca hualmoxtlauhtihui, huallamaceuhtiya, in ixtlahuacan: inic huallacia itziocan, oc oncan motlalia, wherever there was a pyramid place, there they went to pay their debt, to perform penances, at places where debts were paid, until they reached itziocan, where they stopped. (b.9 f.3 c.6 p.31) 3. *ine[i]xtlahual*. oncan contecpana in inextlahual, in itech pohui tlalli, quitoaya tlalteuctli: ihuan ce coatl, in yehuatl otli, ihuan tlacotzontli, zacatzontli. there they placed in order the [paper] offerings which pertained to the earth [god], whom they called tlaltecutli; and one serpent the one [who was] the way; and tlacotzontli [and] ?acatzontli. (b.9 f.1 c.3 p.10) 4. *inne[i]xtlahual*. in aquin inhuicpa monetoltia: in quinquentiz quintlaquentiz, quinchichihuilia in innextlahual, in cihuatetehuitl amatl, tlaoolxahualli oolpeyahuac, one who made a vow to them that he would cover and wrap them, adorned their offerings, the paper banners of the goddesses painted and spattered with liquid rubber. (b.4 f.10 c.33 p.107) 5. *inne[i]xtlahual*. auh in ye iuhqui, in omochi centecpanque in innextlahual ithualnepantla; niman ye ic calaqui in inchan, ixpan moquetza in tletl: and when this was done, when all their offerings were arranged together in the middle of the courtyard, thereupon they entered their home [and] stood before the fire. (b.9 f.1 c.3 p.10) 6. *ixtlahui*. ca nican popohui ixtlahui, in nanyotl, in tayotl, here have been devoted, have been satisfied motherhood, fatherhood. (b.3 f.3 c.ap1 p.42) 7. *ixtlahui*. ma popohui, ma ixtlahui in mihiyotzin, in motlatoltzin: may thy spirit, thy word be regarded; may they be satisfied. (b.6 f.4 c.9 p.42) 8. *ixtlahui*. yece ic popohui, ic ixtlahui in nayotl, in tayotl: however, thereby the motherhood, the fatherhood is satisfied, is complied with. (b.6 f.5 c.10 p.54) 9. *ixtlahui*. manozo popohui, ma ixtlahui in ihiyotzin in itlatoltzin, in yehuatl tloque nahuaque: may the spirit, the words of the lord of the near, of the nigh, be fulfilled, be complied with. (b.6 f.5 c.12 p.61) 10. *ixtlahui*. auh ma ixtlahui in intlatol in ahuaque, in tepehuaque, and may the words of those of the city be complied with. (b.6 f.5 c.12 p.61) 11. *ixtlahui*. in axcan ma popohui, ma ixtlahui in ihiyotzin toteucyo: now may the inspiration of our lord be complied with; may it be satisfied. (b.6 f.13 c.27 p.154) 12. *ixtlauhto*. ma cana ixtlauhto, popouhto: in inchoquiz, in intlaocol, in motechiuhcahuan, in huehuetque: in nican ic mitzapana, ic mitzquimiloa: o that somewhere the tears, the pity of thy elders, the old ones, may go as reward and recompense, to gird and clothe thee. (b.4 f.6 c.17 p.62) 13. *mo[i]xtlahua*. yehuatl, inic tepiqui, inic moxtlahua, inic quineltilia innetol. this one therefore formed the tepicme; thus he paid his debt; thus he fulfilled his vow. (b.1 f.3 c.21 p.49) 14. *mo[i]xtlahua*. auh in axcan ca ayamo cempolihui, noma cequinti, moxtlahua tepeticpac: . and today it is not completely uprooted; even now some pay their debts on mountain tops. (b.1 f.5 c.Ap p.74) 15. *mo[i]xtlahua*. in ihcuac in oacic campa tepetitech tlamatiuh niman ic oncan moxtlahua, when he reached whatsoever mountain he was to perform his due upon, then and there he paid his debt [of sacrifice]. (b.8 f.5 c.apa p.81) 16. *mo[i]xtlahua*. auh in oconcencauhque, niman ye ic moxtlahua, in yohualnepantla: and when they had prepared [the papers], thereupon the debt [to the gods] was paid at midnight. (b.9 f.1 c.3 p.10) 17. *mo[i]xtlahua*. in izquipa moxtlahua zan mochipa conquentia. as often as the debt was paid, they always covered [the canes]. (b.9 f.1 c.3 p.10) 18. *mo[i]xtlahua*. niman ye ic moxtlahua in yoalnepantla: thereupon the debt was paid at midnight. (b.9 f.3 c.6 p.27) 19. *mo[i]xtlahua*. auh in oacic yoalli xelihui, in ye huel yoalnepantla: in yehuatl tecoanotza: niman ye ic moxtlahua, and when the division of the night arrived, when it was exactly midnight, the one who provided the banquet thereupon paid his debt [to the gods]. (b.9 f.4 c.8 p.39) 20. *mo[i]xtlahuaya*. auh in tlatlacatecolo in tzitzitzimi imixpan tlamictiaya: ihuan in impilhuan quimmictiaya, inca moxtlahuaya, in imixpan, in tetlaxinti, in cuauhtlaxinti: and they slew things before the devils, the demons, and they slew their sons; with them the debt was paid before carved stone, carved wood. (b.1 f.3 c.Ap p.61) 21. *mo[i]xtlahuaya*. in nextlahualiztli inic mochihuaya in ihcuac ahzo aca in tlein ipan mochihuaya, ahzo cocoliztli in ihcuac opatic, niman ahzo copalli ihuan amatl inic moxtlahuaya, the payment of a debt [to the gods] was thus done: when mayhap something had befallen one, perchance sickness, when he recovered, then perchance he paid his debt with incense or paper [spotted with liquid rubber]. (b.2 f.12 c.38 p.199) 22. *mo[i]xtlahuaya*. inic chicuei capitulo, itechpa tlatoa in quenin quichihuaya tlamanaliztli, inic moxtlahuaya, in yehuatl quichihuaya cuicuicaliztli, in ihcuac ye compehualtizque cuicanime mihtotizque: ihuan in tlein quichihuaya in yoaltica. eighth chapter, which telleth how he who held the banquet performed the act of offering, to pay the debt [to the gods], when the singers were about to begin to dance; and what they did during the night. (b.9 f.3 c.8 p.37) 23. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. inic 20. capitulo, itechpa tlatoa in ilhuitl, ihuan in nextlahualiztli: in quichihuaya, in ipan huel ic cemilhuitl metztli; in quitocayotiaya, in quitoaya atl cahualo, anozo cuahuitl ehua. twentieth chapter, which telleth of the feast day and the debt-payment which they celebrated during all the days of the month, which they named, which they said was atl caualo or quauitl eua. (b.2 f.1 c.20 p.42) 24. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. inic cempoali oce capitulo, itechpa tlatoa in tlamahuiztililiztli, ihuan in nextlahualiztli, in quichihuaya, in ipan huel ic ontetl metztli, in mitoaya, tlacaxipehualiztli. twenty-first chapter, which telleth of the honors and the debt-payment which they used to render at the time of the entire second month, which was called tlacaxipeualiztli. (b.2 f.1 c.21 p.46) 25. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. inic cempoali omome capitulo, onca motenehua in ilhuitl, ihuan in nextlahualiztli in quichihuaya in ipan ic ome metztli: in mitoaya, in motenehuaya, tlacaxipehualiztli. twenty-second chapter, in which are described the feast day and the debt-paying which they celebrated in the second month, called, known as tlacaxipeualiztli. (b.2 f.2 c.22 p.56) 26. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. inic cempoalli on chicome capitulo, itechpa tlatoa in ilhuitl ihuan in nextlahualiztli, in quichihuaya, in ipan ic cemilhuitl inic chicuei metztli: in mitoaya huei tecuilhuitl. twenty-seventh chapter,which telleth of the feast day and of the debt-paying which they celebrated during all the days of the eighth month, which was called uey tecuilhuitl. (b.2 f.5 c.27 p.95) 27. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. inic cempoalli on chiconahui capitulo, oncan motenehua in ilhuitl, ihuan in nextlahualiztli: in quichihuaya, in ipan ic cemilhuitl, ic matlactetl metztli: in mitoaya xocotl huetzi. twenty-ninth chapter, in which are named the feast and the debt-paying which they celebrated during all the days of the tenth month, which was called xocotl uetzi. (b.2 f.6 c.29 p.110) 28. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. inic cempoalli on matlactli oce capitulo: itechpa tlatoa in ilhuitl, ihuan in nextlahualiztli; in mochihuaya, in ipan huel ic cemilhuitl, inic matlactetl omome metztli: in motocayotiaya, teotl eco. thirty-first chapter, which telleth of the feast and the debt-paying which were observed during all the days of the twelfth month, which was named teotl eco. (b.2 f.7 c.31 p.127) 29. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. inic 34 capitulo: itechpa tlatoa in ilhuitl, ihuan in nextlahualiztli, in mochihuaya in ipan ic cemilhuitl, ic caxtoltetl metztli, in mitoaya: panquetzaliztli. thirty-fourth chapter, which telleth of the feasts and the debt-paying which were observed during all the days of the fifteenth month, which was called panquetzaliztli. (b.2 f.8 c.34 p.140) 30. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. nextlahualiztli. the payment of a debt [to the gods]. (b.2 f.12 c.38 p.199) 31. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. in nextlahualiztli inic mochihuaya in ihcuac ahzo aca in tlein ipan mochihuaya, ahzo cocoliztli in ihcuac opatic, niman ahzo copalli ihuan amatl inic moxtlahuaya, the payment of a debt [to the gods] was thus done: when mayhap something had befallen one, perchance sickness, when he recovered, then perchance he paid his debt with incense or paper [spotted with liquid rubber]. (b.2 f.12 c.38 p.199) 32. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. auh intla tlatlauhtiliztli, ic mochihuaya zan yehuatl in tlenamaquiliztli, ihuan nextlahualiztli, ihuan tlalcualiztli, nextlahualiztli. and if it was a supplication, it was done only with these: the offering of incense, the paying of a debt, and the eating of earth, the paying of a debt. (b.2 f.14 c.38 p.219) 33. *ne[i]xtlahualiztli*. auh intla tlatlauhtiliztli, ic mochihuaya zan yehuatl in tlenamaquiliztli, ihuan nextlahualiztli, ihuan tlalcualiztli, nextlahualiztli. and if it was a supplication, it was done only with these: the offering of incense, the paying of a debt, and the eating of earth, the paying of a debt. (b.2 f.14 c.38 p.219) 34. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. inic chicuacen capitulo, itechpa tlatoa, in ilhuitl, ihuan in nextlahualli, in mochihuaya, in ipan ic cemilhuitl ic macuilli metztli, in mitoaya, toxcatl. sixth (twenty-fourth] chapter, which relateth the feast and the debt-paying which was celebrated during all the days of the fifth month, which was called toxcatl. (b.2 f.2 c.24 p.65) 35. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. niman no icuac tlatla, in ixquich nextlahualli amatl, ihuan in quetzalli, ihuan in nepapan tlazoihhuitl: ihuan cequi chalchihuitl in iuccic, in atle itlacihuiz, in amo tlacihuice: ihuan cequi olchalchihuitl, yayauhqui, yayactic, anozo iyauhtic. then also was the time when all the paper offerings burned, and the quetzal feathers and the various [other] precious feathers, and some of the green stones -well formed, those which were in no way blemished, which had no defects, as well as some of the rubber-colored stones, those which were blackish, those which were brown, those which were dark. (b.2 f.4 c.25 p.88) 36. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. quihualtemohuia in ixquich nextlahualli, in tetehuitl: ihuan ichtilmatli tlacuilolli, ihuan itoca ayahuixo: ihuan in chalchihuitl, ihuan quetzalli, ihuan copalli, tlatlacatlachia: they brought down all the offerings -- the rubber-spattered sacrificial banners, and the maguey fiber capes painted with designs, also called "mist-faced," and the green stones, and the quetzal feathers, and the incense pieces which looked like men. (b.2 f.4 c.25 p.89) 37. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. auh in oacito niman ye ic conacalaquia, conacaltema in ixquich nextlahualli: and when they had gone to arrive, thereupon they loaded a boat; they filled a boat with all the offerings. (b.2 f.4 c.25 p.89) 38. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. inic cempoalli on matlactli omome capitulo: oncan motenehua in ilhuitl, ihuan in nextlahualli, in mochihuaya in ipan ic cemilhuitl, ic matlactetl omei metztli in motenehuaya, in mitoaya tepilhuitl. thirty-second chapter, in which are related the feast day and debt-paying which were observed during all the days of the thirteenth month, which was known as, which was called tepeilhuitl. (b.2 f.7 c.32 p.130) 39. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. inic cempoalli onmatlactli omei capitulo: oncan motenehua in ilhuitl, ihuan in nextlahualli, inic tlacotia: in quichihuaya, in ipan ic cemilhuitl, ic matlactetl on nahui metztli, in motenehuaya, quecholli. thirty-third chapter, in which are related the feast day and the debt-paying with which they gave service, which they observed during all the days of the fourteenth month, which was called quecholli. (b.2 f.8 c.33 p.133) 40. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. auh in ihcuac concahua tetehuitl, in nextlahualli conmamana, coniilpia cuenmantitech. and when they left the paper banners, when they set down the debt-payment, they bound them upon the poles. (b.2 f.9 c.35 p.154) 41. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. inic cempoalli on caxtolli oce, capitulo oncan motenehua in ilhuitl, ihuan in nextlahualli, in mochihuaya in ipan huel ic cemilhuitl ic caxtoltetl omome metztli in mitoaya tititl. thirty-sixth chapter, where are related the feast day and the debt-paying which were observed during all the days of the seventeenth month, which was called tititl. (b.2 f.9 c.36 p.154) 42. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. ihuan oncan tlatlaya in nextlahualli, in ihcuac miquia tlamatzinca cexiuhtica. and there the debt-payments burned at the time that, each year, the tlamatzinca died. (b.2 f.12 c.38 p.185) 43. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. auh miec in huentli, in nextlahualli inic quimahuiztiliaya, and many were the offerings and blood sacrifices with which they did him honor. (b.4 f.4 c.9 p.33) 44. *ne[i]xtlahualli*. quitocayotia nextlahualli, they called the [ceremony] nextlaualli. (b.4 f.9 c.25 p.87) 45. *ne[i]xtlahualoya*. nextlahualoya, in nohuian tepeticpac, ihuan neteteuhtiloya, there was the paying of the debt [to the tlalocs] everywhere on the mountain tops, and sacrificial banners were hung. (b.2 f.1 c.20 p.42) 46. *ne[i]xtlahualti*. izquican in, in miquiya nextlahualti, tlacateteuhti: these were all the places where the debt-payments, the "human paper streamers, died. (b.2 f.1 c.20 p.44) 47. *ohmo[i]xtlauh*. in ohmoxtlauh, niman ye ic ipan tlatoa in ixquich monequiz, in tlacualli, in totolquimilli, in nacatlaoyo, in totollaolli: ihuan cualli cacahuatl, teonazazzo. when the debt was paid, thereupon he undertook to secure all which was necessary of food, turkey pasties, meat stewed with maize, turkey stewed with maize, and good chocolate with "divine ear" spice. (b.9 f.3 c.6 p.27) 48. *oixtlauh*. a ca opopouh, ca oixtlauh in nayotl, in tayotl: the motherhood, the fatherhood are rendered, are satisfied. (b.6 f.7 c.16 p.85) 49. *ommo[i]xtlauh*. auh in ommoxtlauh, niman ye ic hualpehua: and when he had paid the debt, thereupon he departed. (b.2 f.11 c.38 p.181) 50. *omo[i]xtlahua*. auh in otlapitzaloc mexico yohualnepantla, niman ic nohuian tlapitza in tlamacazque in tlamaceuhque in ompa tepetitech in campa omoxtlahua, and when the trumpets had been sounded in mexico at midnight, then the priests, they who did penance, blew trumpets everywhere there upon the mountains where they paid their debts. (b.8 f.5 c.apa p.81) 51. *onixtlauh*. otonmotlamachti, otonmocuiltono: ompopouh, onixtlauh inic monantzin, inic motatzin. thou has rejoiced, thou hast become wealthy. it hath been paid; the debt hath been paid by means of thy mother, thy father. (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.249) 52. *onixtlauh*. ompopouh, onixtlauh inic monantzin, inic motatzin in altepetl, "it hath been paid; the debt hath been paid by means of thy mother, thy father, the city.". (b.6 f.20 c.43 p.249) 53. *onne[i]xtlahualoya*. onnextlahualoya, in tepetzinco, anozo ompa in huel aitic, itocayocan pantitla: there was the payment of the debt at tepetzinco or there in the very middle of the lake at a place called pantitlan. (b.2 f.1 c.20 p.42) 54. *ontla[i]xtlahuaya*. icuac cuacualo, iuhquin ic tetzoyotiloya, tetlacaquitilo, tetlalhuilo, temolcahualtilo: ca in aquique macoya, in icuac ye ilhuiuhquizaz, mocuitlaxcolixtlahuaya, mopopohuaya, ipampa ca ontlaxtlahuaya. when it was eaten, it was as if one had thus been given an obligation; one had been notified, informed; it had been verified to one that those to whom it had been given, at the coming of the [next] feast day, paid with their entrails; they made repayments because of the debt. (b.1 f.2 c.15 p.34) 55. *quintla[i]xtlahuili*. ihuan oppamixtlapan inic quintlaxtlahuili, inic quintlatlacollaz pipilti. and a double forfeit he then paid in order to redeem and deliver the noblemen from bondage. (b.8 f.3 c.14 p.41) 56. *tla[i]xtlahua*. auh in ihcuac quilhuia motelpochtlali, tlaxtlahua. and when, they said, youth was laid down, he paid his debt. (b.3 f.4 c.ap6 p.59) 57. *tla[i]xtlahuazque*. macihui in omito: in mochi neciz in quicuaz, in caciz, nepapan totome: in ixhuihuan, yehuantin tlaxtlahuazque: huel motolinizque. although, as has been said, all which he will eat will be at hand --the various birds which he will capture --his grandsons will be in debt; they will indeed be poor. (b.11 f.3 c.2 p.30) 58. *tla[i]xtlauh*. zatepan huel tlaxtlauh in coyotl, ca miec in quimacac totoli in yehuatl tiacauh in quimomaquixtili. later the coyote paid its debt well, for it gave many birds to this warrior who had saved it. (b.11 f.9 c.5 p.84) 59. *tlaxtlahua*. inic amo omic iuhquinma ic tlaxtlahua, yehica ca omiquizquia. because he had not died, he paid his debt in this manner; because, verily, [otherwise] he would have died. (b.2 f.12 c.38 p.199) 60. *tlazonextlahualti*. mitohuaya, ca yehuantin huel tlazonextlahualti. it was said that they were most precious blood-offerings. (b.1 f.4 c.Ap p.68) > In Estudios de cultura nahuatl 32 Ulrich K?hler takes issue with the concept > of nextlahualiztli 'sacrifice' as literally debt-repayment, despite its > obvious derivation from the verb ixtlahua. He is exercised about this and > states that , "this article is written in English, because most of the > erroneous recent statements on an alleged Aztec debt-repayment to their gods > have been published in that language. Hopefully, further diffusion of this > nonsense can still be stopped." > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Feb 15 19:03:53 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:03:53 -0500 Subject: ixtlilli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, Elisabeth, I'm aware of the components. I want to know if there is a substance known as ixtlilli. thanks. On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Elisabeth Curiel wrote: > Hello Michael: > > I don't know the context of what you read, but "ixtlilli", if we talk of a > "substance" is probably a compound of > > ixtli = face > > tlilli = black color > > some face blackening. > > Elisabeth Curiel > > >From: Michael Mccafferty > >To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu > >Subject: Re: ixtlilli > >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:31:19 -0500 (EST) > > > > > >Does anyone recognize as a particular substance? I do not have > >the word in my database. > > > > > >tlaxtlahui, > > > >Michael McCafferty > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos es la manera m?s sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus fotos: > http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu "Talking is often a torment for me, and I need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words. C.G. Jung "...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk." Rumi From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Feb 15 19:05:15 2002 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:05:15 -0500 Subject: ixtlilli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Miqueltzin, Here are all the occurrences of "-ixtlil-" . Saludos, Joe ixtlilco** 1. *ixtlilco* teohua.. the keeper of the god at the temple of ixtlilton (b.2 f.13 p.212). 2. in *ixtlilco* teohua ipan icaca, ipan tlatohuaya, quitzatziliaya in huentli inic motenmamalia pipiltzitzinti in in ahzo oquichtin, in anozo cihua. the keeper of the god at the temple of ixtlilton presided over, issued directions, made public announcements [concerning] the gifts, when the small children, whether men [children] or women [children], began to talk. (b.2 f.13 p.212). ixtlilcuechahuac** 3. auh manozo ihuian, yocoxca intech onaciz in tiacahuan in yaomicque, in tepilhuan: in quitziccuacuatzin, in maceuhcatzin, in tlacahuepantzin, in *ixtlilcuechahuac*, in ihhuitl temoc in chahuacuetzin: auh in ye mochintin, in ye ixquichtin, in cuauhti in ocelo, in ilhuicatl itic, in ompa cahuiltia in tonatiuh, in xippilli in tiacauh in yaomicqui in ompa coyohuia:. and may they in peace, in repose, arrive among the valiant warriors, those who died in war, the noblemen, quitzicquaquatzin, maceuhcatzin, tlacauepantzin, ixtlilcuechauac, ihuitl temoc, [and] chahuacuetzin; and all, all the several eagle warriors, the ocelot warriors who are in the heavens where they gladden the sun, the turquoise prince, the valiant warrior, the one who died in war--they cry out to him there. (b.6 f.1 p.13). ixtlilcuichectique** 4. mimiltontli: cequintin huel tliltique, cequintin *ixtlilcuichectique*:. they are small and cylindrical [worms]; some are deep black, some smoky black. (b.11 f.19 p.190). ixtlilectic** 5. zan *ixtlilectic*, zan oc iuhquin ezhuaqui, ololtic, ololtontli, pahpatzpil, huahuacalpil,. it is of quite dark surface, still like dried blood -- round, small and round, a little spongy, a little dry. (b.11 f.23 p.238). ixtlilehua** 6. in ihcuac, cualo metztli: *ixtlilehua*, ixcuichehua, cuichehuatimomana, tlayohuatimomana.. when the moon eclipsed, his face grew dark and sooty; blackness and darkness spread. (b.7 f.1 p.8). ixtlilehuac** 7. zan nel achi *ixtlilehuac*.. it is really a little dark-surfaced. (b.11 f.22 p.223). 8. in zan mixcahuia, zan oc achi cuichehuac, achi *ixtlilehuac*:. it is only a little dark, a little blackish. (b.11 f.23 p.241). 9. tlalchichilli; tlalli chichiltic, poxahuac, *ixtlilehuac*, ixtliltic:. tlalchichilli is chili-red earth, spongy, dark, dark-surfaced. (b.11 f.25 p.257). 10. tliltic, *ixtlilehuac*,. it is black, dark. (b.11 f.25 p.258). ixtlilihui** 11. *ixtlilihui*. face blackens (b.10 f.6 p.112b). ixtliltic** 12. ixcuappachtic, nextic, achi *ixtliltic*:. its feathers are tawny, ashen, somewhat dark. (b.11 f.4 p.35). 13. yahualtotonti: in ixiuhyo xoxoctic in inelhuayo *ixtliltic*. its leaves are round, small, green; its root blackish on the surface. (b.11 f.15 p.150). 14. auh in inelhuayo, achi *ixtliltic* im pani: ehuayotilahuac, in iyollo iztac,. and its root is somewhat black on the surface, thick-skinned: it is white in its interior. (b.11 f.16 p.168). 15. im pani achi *ixtliltic*, in tlani achi ixcoztic,. It is somewhat black on its surface, somewhat yellow within. (b.11 f.17 p.172). 16. auh in inelhuayo totomahuac, totomactotonti: im pani *ixtliltic*, in iitic iztac: amo ehuayotilahuac, neucticachichic,. and its roots are thick, small and thick, black on their surfaces, white on the inside, thin-skinned, bitter-sweet. (b.11 f.17 p.176). 17. ehuayotilahuac, in pani achi *ixtliltic*, in tlani iztac, chichic,. the skin is thick, somewhat black on the surface, white underneath, bitter. (b.11 f.18 p.182). 18. im pani achi *ixtliltic*, in tlani cenca iztac:. it is somewhat black on the surface, very white beneath. (b.11 f.18 p.185). 19. tlalchichilli; tlalli chichiltic, poxahuac, ixtlilehuac, *ixtliltic*:. tlalchichilli is chili-red earth, spongy, dark, dark-surfaced. (b.11 f.25 p.257). ixtlilton** 20. inic caxtolli oce capitulo itechpa tlatoa, in teotl in itoca, catca, *ixtlilton*, tlaltetecuin.. sixteenth chapter, which telleth of the god named ixtliton (little black face), tlaltetecuin (the earth-stamper). (b.1 f.2 p.35). 21. auh in aquin mococoaya, piltontli, ompa quihuicaya in iteopan *ixtlilton*:. and whenever a child sickened, they brought him to the temple of ixtliton. (b.1 f.2 p.35). 22. in otlacualoc, niman mitotia, in *ixtlilton*:. after the eating, then ixtliton danced. (b.1 f.2 p.35). 23. amo teotl in xiuhteuctli: macuilxochitl amo teotl; omacatl amono teotl: *ixtlilton*, tlaltetecuin, amono teotl: in opochtli, amono teotl: xipe totec amono teotl:. xiuhtecutli is no god, macuilxochitl is no god, nor is omacatl a god, nor is ixtlilton tlaltetecuin a god, nor is opochtli a god, nor is xipe totec a god. (b.1 f.4 p.64). 24. b. oc no ce diablo quimoteotitiaque, in huehuetque, in quitocayotique, *ixtlilton*, ihuan xochipilli:. b. still another devil whom the ancients worshipped they named ixtliton and xochipilli. (b.1 f.5 p.72). 25. zan no yehuatl *ixtlilton*, anozo tlaltetecuin, inteouh catca in huehuetque:. likewise one ixtlilton or tlaltetecuin was a god of the ancients. (b.1 f.5 p.73). 26. oc no miec tlamantli, itech tlamiloya: ihuan miec tlamantli, neahuiltiliztli, in quichihuaya, in inchan, quihuicaya, in *ixtlilton*;. many other things were ascribed to him, and they did many things as recreation [when] they took ixtlilton to their homes. (b.1 f.5 p.73). ixtlilxochitl** 27. auh inic ei, tlatoani mochiuh acolhuacan yehuatl in huehue *ixtlilxochitl*. and the third who became ruler of acolhuacan was ixtlilxochitl the elder. (b.8 f.1 p.9). ixtlilxochitzin** 28. inic chiconhahui tlatoani mochiuh tetzcoco yehuatl in *ixtlilxochitzin* in tlatocat chicuexihuitl. the ninth who became ruler of texcoco was ixtlilxochitzin, who ruled eight years. (b.8 f.1 p.10). mixtlilhui** 29. auh ihuin in mochichihuaya, motlilozac, mixtlilpopotz, *mixtlilhui*, michchiahuiticac,. and thus was he arrayed: he was anointed with black; his face was covered with soot; it was blackened; his face was [spotted] with [a paste of] amaranth seed dough. (b.1 f.2 p.46). mixtlilpopotz** 30. *mixtlilpopotz*,. his face was covered with soot. (b.1 f.1 p.9). 31. auh ihuin in mochichihuaya, motlilozac, *mixtlilpopotz*, mixtlilhui, michchiahuiticac,. and thus was he arrayed: he was anointed with black; his face was covered with soot; it was blackened; his face was [spotted] with [a paste of] amaranth seed dough. (b.1 f.2 p.46). mixtlilpopotzque** 32. auh omentin in tiachcahuan *mixtlilpopotzque*, ahco mani, tlexictli ixpan,. and two masters of youths who had spread black paint on their faces stood above, before the hearth. (b.2 f.3 p.74). mixtlilpopotztinenca** 33. mozahua, ic mitoa motlilzahua, *mixtlilpopotztinenca*,. [the impersonator] fasted; hence it was said: "he fasteth in black," [for] he went with his face smoke-black. (b.2 f.3 p.69). mocemixtlilpopotz** 34. inic mochichihuaya, mozac, *mocemixtlilpopotz*, mixtizatlatlali, in icamapa:. thus was [ixtliton] arrayed: he was spread over with unguent; his face was covered with soot; about his lips white clay was placed. (b.1 f.2 p.36). quixtlilpopotza** 35. in oconhuicaque, niman cohza tliltica, huel *quixtlilpopotza*,. when they had taken [the children] there, then they anointed them with black, they blackened their faces well with soot. (b.3 f.4 p.63). teixtlileuh** 36. *teixtlileuh*, teixtlilo, teixcapotzo, teixtlecaleuh.. he turned men's skins brown, darkening them, blackening them, blistering them. (b.7 f.1 p.1). teixtlilo** 37. teixtlileuh, *teixtlilo*, teixcapotzo, teixtlecaleuh.. he turned men's skins brown, darkening them, blackening them, blistering them. (b.7 f.1 p.1). tlaixtlilpopotzalli** 38. auh inic mochichihuaya, *tlaixtlilpopotzalli*, tlaixolhuilli, motlilozac, ixmichihuahue, ixmichihuauhyo,. and he was thus arrayed: his face was covered with soot; his face was painted with liquid rubber; it was anointed with black; his face was [spotted] with [a past of] amaranth seed dough. (b.1 f.1 p.7). On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Does anyone recognize as a particular substance? I do not have > the word in my database. > > > tlaxtlahui, > > Michael McCafferty > > > From jmiguel at biblio.ues.edu.sv Fri Feb 15 19:44:39 2002 From: jmiguel at biblio.ues.edu.sv (Juan Carlos Miguel Martinez) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:44:39 -0600 Subject: Un toponimo tlaxcalteco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hola Joe, soy un joven investigador del nahualismo e indigenismo mesoamericano agradeceria mucho si me envias informacion que me ayude a tener m?s conocimiento sobre el tema.. atte.Shuan From liccuriel at hotmail.com Fri Feb 15 21:44:57 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:44:57 +0000 Subject: ixtlilli Message-ID: A C Garcia: Si eso que me dices es lo que pienso que me estas diciendo, te respondo: "yo creo que significa que eres un penitente." Lisita. >From: "A. C. Garcia" >Reply-To: cuitlahuac at altavista.com >To: Elisabeth Curiel >Subject: Re: ixtlilli >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:48:05 -0800 (PST) > >well to my knowlwdge I believe it means PHALLUS... I >could be wrong... >--- Elisabeth Curiel wrote: > > Hello Michael: > > > > I don't know the context of what you read, but > > "ixtlilli", if we talk of a > > "substance" is probably a compound of > > > > ixtli = face > > > > tlilli = black color > > > > some face blackening. > > > > Elisabeth Curiel > > > > >From: Michael Mccafferty > > >To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu > > >Subject: Re: ixtlilli > > >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:31:19 -0500 (EST) > > > > > > > > >Does anyone recognize as a particular > > substance? I do not have > > >the word in my database. > > > > > > > > >tlaxtlahui, > > > > > >Michael McCafferty > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > MSN Photos es la manera m?s sencilla de compartir e > > imprimir sus fotos: > > http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Got something to say? Say it better with Yahoo! Video Mail >http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Hable con sus amigos en l?nea, pruebe MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.es From Huaxyacac at aol.com Fri Feb 15 21:51:22 2002 From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:51:22 EST Subject: ixtlahua/debt Message-ID: How recently did ECN 32 come out? I just checked the UNAM e-journal website, and they still only have 30 and 31 available on-line at http://www.ejournal.unam.mx/cultura_nahuatl/cultura_nahuatl_index.html We'll see if they post it before I next make it down to Mexico to go book-shopping. Alec Christensen From liccuriel at hotmail.com Fri Feb 15 23:01:02 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:01:02 +0000 Subject: to all Message-ID: Al penitente que me envi? un estupido emal: Ok, chico listo. Aunque uses direcciones an?nimas para que no pueda responder tus majaderias, te voy a agarrar, te prometo que te voy a agarrar. Aunque se me haya regresado tu correo, s? de qu? IP lo enviaste, y qui?n eres. Ni siquiera sabes con qui?n te estas metiendo. Y ni te molestes en enviarme nada m?s. No abrir? este correo m?s. Atentamente, Lisita. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos es la manera m?s sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus fotos: http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Feb 18 14:27:41 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 08:27:41 -0600 Subject: Xitzahuil Message-ID: From: "Susana Moraleda" To: Subject: Xitzahuil Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:25:44 +0100 Podria alguien ayudarme con la etimologia de la palabra XITZAHUIL por favor? Supuestamente significa "miles de cascabeles", pero tengo mis dudas si es Nahuatl u algun otro idioma amerindio. Gracias anticipadas, Susana From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Feb 18 14:38:28 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 08:38:28 -0600 Subject: ixtlahua/debt Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:22:05 -0700 Subject: Re: ixtlahua/debt From: richard haly To: Frances Karttunen , I can likewise take issue with most representations of sacrifice as debt-payement to gods when concepts such as debt, payment, and gods go unexamined. From my research, nextlahualiztli makes most sense as payment to the rulers (likewise teotl). When people say that the Aztecs thought the Spaniards were "gods" - teules- it makes them (the Aztecs) seem pretty credulous when we think of "gods" in any Judeo-Christian manner. Nonetheless, when one considers that they called their own rulers "gods" and treated them as such - not looking in to the brightness of the face of the emperor/sun - then any debt-payment to gods can be a debt-payment to rulers. All sacrifice phenomena - and all festival and pilgrimage phenomena as well - make much more sense when one tries to understand them in this world and not in some metaphysical or "religious" way. (Religious is in quotation marks because most people think religion is about "spiritual" stuff and not "material" stuff because that is what their own religions have told them. That is not the case in a culture of embodied ancestors - Mesoamerica, for one.) Sacrifice is much more like kula-exchange among Trobriand islanders. An explanation of sacrifice whose dynamics do not rely on metaphysical language or a transcendent agent has a greater chance of making real sense. Richard From carlossn at ui.boe.es Tue Feb 19 09:05:55 2002 From: carlossn at ui.boe.es (Carlos Santamarina Novillo) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:05:55 +0100 Subject: ixtlahua/debt Message-ID: Yes, I think too that the ?metaphysical considerations? had obscured the social reality about human sacrifice. I think that about this issue is very appropriate the use of pike?s terms emics (the native sources? reasoning) and etics (the scholar?s conclusions), as in many other cases. I am very interesting about teteuctin as teteo, or rulers as gods. Can you specify your sources about the divine consideration of rulers? Thank you - Carlos Santamarina "John F. Schwaller" ha escrito: > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:22:05 -0700 > Subject: Re: ixtlahua/debt > From: richard haly > To: Frances Karttunen , > > I can likewise take issue with most representations of sacrifice as > debt-payement to gods when concepts such as debt, payment, and gods go > unexamined. From my research, nextlahualiztli makes most sense as payment to > the rulers (likewise teotl). When people say that the Aztecs thought the > Spaniards were "gods" - teules- it makes them (the Aztecs) seem pretty > credulous when we think of "gods" in any Judeo-Christian manner. > Nonetheless, when one considers that they called their own rulers "gods" and > treated them as such - not looking in to the brightness of the face of the > emperor/sun - then any debt-payment to gods can be a debt-payment to > rulers. All sacrifice phenomena - and all festival and pilgrimage phenomena > as well - make much more sense when one tries to understand them in this > world and not in some metaphysical or "religious" way. (Religious is in > quotation marks because most people think religion is about "spiritual" > stuff and not "material" stuff because that is what their own religions have > told them. That is not the case in a culture of embodied ancestors - > Mesoamerica, for one.) Sacrifice is much more like kula-exchange among > Trobriand islanders. An explanation of sacrifice whose dynamics do not rely > on metaphysical language or a transcendent agent has a greater chance of > making real sense. > > Richard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Feb 19 19:52:23 2002 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:52:23 -0500 Subject: Bleeding Message-ID: Nocnihuan, I have a morphological doubt about words involving bleeding (self and otherwise). I have a hypothesis, but no supporting evidence for it. Could someone shed some light on the 'i' in "m[o]izoya" 'he bled himself"? If it matches my hypothesis, I'll call it 'supporting' and say thank you. Best regards, Joe mizo** 1. in campa cochizque, oncan quitilquetza, ixpan tlamacehua, *mizo*, quicopaltemilia, inic quitlauhtia in inteouh iyacateuctli, inic quitlanilia, inic quimatataquilia, iteicneliliz:. wheresoever they would sleep, there they set them up; before them they did penances, drew blood, offered incense to render service to their god yiacatecutli, in order to win, to implore his favor. (b.1 f.2 p.41). 2. a. in icuac huel oquiquetz iteouh: niman ixpan tlamana, ixpan monacaztequi, *mizo*, quitlatlauhtia:. a. when he hath properly set up his god, then before him he layeth an offering; before him he cutteth his ears, he bleedeth himself, he offereth him prayers. (b.1 f.3 p.57). 3. auh in aquin itto, in amo *mizo* quipepetlahuaya, aocmo quimaca in itilma,. and if anyone was seen who did not anoint himself with his blood, they repeatedly stripped him; nevermore did they give him his cape. (b.2 f.8 p.135). 4. oncan ixpan tlamacehua, *mizo*, monacaztequi, tlacoquixtia,. here, before him, they did penances, bled themselves, cut their ears, and drew straws through them; (b.5 f.1 p.155). 5. tlateomatini, in yoalli ic quitlaza tlapia, teponazoa, cuicatoque, *mizo*, motetequi, mohuitztlalia, tlapitza, apan temo.. they were devout: they held vigil, held watch, played the two-toned drum, sat singing, bled themselves, mutilated themselves, inserted maguey spines, blew the trumpet shell, entered into the water. (b.10 f.11 p.176). mizoc** 6. auh in ihcuac yoalnepantla: in ye tlapitza *mizoc*, in mozauhqui, tlamacazqui: niman iciuhca quintlalia tlecuilixcuac, in oncan onoc petlatl,. and when it was midnight, when [it was the time to] blow shell trumpets, [to] draw blood, those who fasted, the priests, then quickly placed [the victims] before the hearth, where a straw mat lay spread out. (b.9 f.5 p.63). mizoni** 7. yehuatl in amo tlatziuhqui, in yeel, in tlamocuitlahuiani, in cochizani, in tlahceliani, in tlamacehuani, in mozahuani, in *mizoni*,. one who was not lazy; diligent and careful, vigilant, a receiver of [ritual] benefits, a doer of penances, one who fasted and bled himself; (b.4 f.1 p.5). mizotoque** 8. oncan tlatlapitztoque, ihuan *mizotoque*:. there they each sat blowing shell trumpets, and they sat bleeding themselves. (b.2 f.8 p.134). mizoya** 9. ixquich tlacatl, *mizoya*:. everyone anointed himself -- with his blood. (b.2 f.8 p.135). 10. in *mizoya* inic quichihuaya itztli ica in contequia in inacazco, auh niman ic quihualpipiloyaya in eztli in innacaztitlan.. when they bloodied themselves, thus did they do it: with an obsidian blade one cut [the lobes of] one's ears, and then they let the blood flow from about the ears. (b.2 f.12 p.198). 11. zan ye no yehuatl in nezoliztli in nenacaztequiliztli in *mizoya* in monacaztequia.. likewise the bloodying was a cutting of the ear [lobes] when one bloodied oneself, when one cut one's ear [lobes]. (b.2 f.12 p.198). 12. auh mochi tlacatl *mizoya*,. and everyone drew blood. (b.2 f.14 p.216). 13. huel mochi tlacatl in oquichtli, in cihuatl, im piltzintli, monacaztequia, *mizoya*,. verily, everyone--men, and women, children--cut their ears and drew blood. (b.4 f.1 p.6). 14. auh yece inic huel quicnopilhuiz imahcehual, inic huel quittaz tlahmachtli, cenca tlamacehuaya, mozahuaya, *mizoya* in ihcuac moquetzaya ce xochitl tonalli:. but nevertheless, in order to gain her deserts, and to achieve skill in embroidering, she should do great penances, and fast, and draw blood when the day sign one flower set in. (b.4 f.3 p.25). 15. ca i yehuanti tlenamacaque, tlamacazque catca ihcuac quizaya in tlacuauhtlapoyahua, in mitoaya yancuican tlatlapitzalo, achto *mizoya* in ixpan tlacatecolotl ica huitztli, in metl ihuitzo, niman ceceyaca quizaya, zan petlauhtihuia,. for these who were fire priests and other priests, when they came forth well into the night, and when, as was said, the shell trumpets were newly blown, first drew their blood before the devil, with thorns, the spines of the maguey; then each one separately set forth, going quite naked. (b.8 f.5 p.81). 16. in inteopan oncan nenca in tlamacazque: ihuan oncan huapahualoya in pipiltotonti, oncan tlamacehuaya, yohualli quitlazaya, apan temoya mohuitztlaliaya, *mizoya*, motequia, mozahuaya,. there in their temples lived the priests, and there the small boys were reared; there they did penance, passed the night, entered the bath; maguey spines were placed, they bled themselves, they cut themselves, they fasted. (b.10 f.11 p.177). momazaizo** 17. mitoaya, *momazaizo*,. it was said: "they anoint themselves with blood because of the deer." (b.2 f.8 p.134). nixochizo** 18. *nixochizo*,. I thread a flower. (b.11 f.21 p.214). nixochizozo** 19. *nixochizozo*:. I string flowers. (b.11 f.21 p.214). omizoc** 20. auh in ye iuhqui in *omizoc*, in oconquixti iiezzo: no ipan conchichipitza in amatl, oncan mani ithualnepantla:. and when this was done, when blood had been offered, when he had made his blood flow, also he spattered it profusely on the papers which lay in the middle of the courtyard. (b.9 f.1 p.11). ommizo** 21. auh in yehuantin teopixque papahuaque, quintlacoaantihui, in quihuica, icpac huitzilopochtli, inic *ommizo* yohualnepantla,. and these keepers of the gods, the long-haired ones, took them in their midst---they took them above, to [the temple of] uitzilopochtli, to offer blood at midnight. (b.8 f.4 p.64). 22. zan ompa ommocahuaya, inic nauhcampa *ommizo*.. just there they stopped offering blood to the four quarters. (b.9 f.1 p.10). ommizoc** 23. in oipan *ommizoc* niman ye ic hualquiza in ithualnepantla:. when the blood had been offered on [the papers], thereupon they went out into the middle of the courtyard. (b.9 f.1 p.10). onmizoa** 24. zan no izquiyoal, in yoalnepantla tlenamacaya, ihuan *onmizoa* in ixpan huitzilopochtli, ihuan maltiaya.. likewise, for as many nights, at midnight, they offered incense and made blood offerings before [the image of] uitzilopochtli, and they bathed themselves. (b.8 f.4 p.64). oommizoco** 25. in *oommizoco*: niman ye no ceppa calaqui in ichan, ixpan moquetza in tletl,. when he came to make blood offerings, then once more he entered his home, stood before the fire, [then took the paper, raised it up--raised it as an offering toward the fire]. (b.9 f.1 p.11). quizo** 26. in olli ic *quizo* coyolomitl: niman ye ic contlecuinaltia,. they impaled the [lump of] rubber on a [copper] spit; thereupon they set it on fire. (b.9 f.1 p.9). 27. in oconquechcotonque, niman ye ic huitzauhqui ic *quizo* in innacaz, anozo innenepil in quizo.. when they had beheaded it, thereupon, with pointed obsidian blades, they pierced their ears, or they pierced their tongues. (b.9 f.1 p.10). 28. in oconquechcotonque, niman ye ic huitzauhqui ic quizo in innacaz, anozo innenepil in *quizo*.. when they had beheaded it, thereupon, with pointed obsidian blades, they pierced their ears, or they pierced their tongues. (b.9 f.1 p.10). 29. iyacac quitlalia, iyacac *quizo*, in acatl:. at the tip of the arrow he places it; with its tip he pierces it. (b.11 f.1 p.3). quizoaya** 30. *quizoaya*, in itlanitz inic quezhuiaya in huitztli,. he bled the calf of his leg to stain thorns with blood. (b.3 f.2 p.14). 31. inic mitoa quetzalcalli, xiuhtotocalli, tilmatitech, anozo matlatitech quitecaya, quizaloaya in quetzalli, in xiuhtototl: niman caltech *quizoaya*,. for this reason was it called the house of quetzal feathers, the house of blue cotinga feathers: they placed --they pasted --the quetzal feathers, the blue cotinga feathers, to capes or nets [and] then hung them on the wall. (b.10 f.10 p.166). quizohzo** 32. in tlahueliloc ichcanamacac: quinacazana in ichcatl, ichcazohzo, in ichcacacallotl quinacazaquia, *quizohzo*.. the bad cotton seller takes some cotton from each section; he fluffs the cotton with a needle; into each cotton boll he introduces [other cotton]; he fluffs it with a needle. (b.10 f.4 p.75). quizoya** 33. in mixcoapan tzompantli: oncan *quizoya* in intzontecon, in miquia mixcoatempan.. mixcoapan skull rack: there they strung up the severed heads of those who died in the temple of mixcoatl. (b.2 f.11 p.180). 34. in yopico tzompantli: onca *quizoya* in intzontecon mamalti: auh yehuantin in quinhuahuanaya ipan tlacaxipehualiztli:. yopico skull rack: there they strung up the severed heads of captives and those whom they striped [slew in gladiatorial sacrifice] at the time of [the feast of] tlacaxipeualiztli. (b.2 f.12 p.189). 35. auh oncan *quizoya* in intzontecon mamalti, in icpac miquia iyacateuctli iteopan: ipan in cemilhuitlapoalli xocotl huetzi.. and there they strung up the severed heads of captives who died above on the [pyramid] temple of yiacatecutli at the time of the first day of [the month of] xocotl uetzi. (b.2 f.12 p.189). quizozo** 36. in zan tepiton quitlacoa *quizozo* in inacazco, in iyomotla in imetzpa, huitztica, anozo omitica.. if he sinned only lightly, they drew blood from his ears, his flanks, his thighs with maguey spines or with a [sharpened] bone. (b.3 f.4 p.66). quizozoque** 37. no *quizozoque* in cahuallosme intzontecon,. also they strung up the horses' heads. (b.12 f.7 p.104). quizozoya** 38. auh intla ce axihua, telpochtli, in tlamacazque *quizozoya* huitztica in inacazco, in iacolpan, in ielpan, in imetzpan,. and if one of the youths were taken, the offering priests bled his ears with a [maguey] thorn, [and] his shoulders, his breast, his thighs. (b.2 f.9 p.149). 39. ayac oncan maxixaya, auh in aquin oncan omaxix, niman quitzitzquiaya, quicalaquiaya calitic, ompa quitlatzacuiltiaya *quizozoya*.. no one urinated there; but if anyone did urinate there, they then seized him, they took him within; there they punished him, they bled him. (b.2 f.13 p.212). 40. *quizozoya* inacaztitech, iyelpan, imetzpan, itlanitzco. they drew blood from his ears, his breast, his thighs, the calves of his legs. (b.3 f.4 p.66). 41. in aquin amo huellatoz, in amo huel tetlapaloz niman *quizozoya*.. he who spoke not well, who greeted others not well, they then drew blood from [with maguey spines]. (b.3 f.4 p.67). timizoz** 42. auh *timizoz*:. and thou art to draw blood. (b.6 f.3 p.33). From indus56 at telusplanet.net Wed Feb 20 04:17:25 2002 From: indus56 at telusplanet.net (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:17:25 -0700 Subject: nezahualpilli Message-ID: In a very generous reply to an earlier query, one listmember provided me with a list of epithets for Tezcatlipoca, as the Enemy of Both sides (part of which I enclose below). I have no Nahuatl, but one epithet appears more than once: nezahualpilli. Two questions: 1) Am I correct in thinking that Nezahualpilli was also the name of the son (grandson?) of the Nezahualcoyotl? 2) If the latter means roughly 'fasting coyote' how might Nezahualpilli be translated? Leading, I suppose to a third: does it seem plausible that the stories of Nezahualpilli and Nezahualcoyotl going forth from Texcoco to challenge Moctezuma II and I respectively, have a mythic dimension ... with the Mexica figures in some sense acting as doubles for Quetzalcoatl / Tezcatlipoca? ihuan quitocayotique, titlacahuan, ihuan yaotl, *necoc* yaotl, moyocoya, nezahualpilli.. and they [also] named him titlacauan, and yaotl, necoc yaotl, moyocoya, ne?aualpilli. (b.1 f.4 p.67). From ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu Wed Feb 20 15:11:41 2002 From: ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu (Kevin P Smith) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 07:11:41 -0800 Subject: nezahualpilli In-Reply-To: <3C732354.A04C222D@telusplanet.net> Message-ID: Dear Paul, Yes, Nezahualpilli (1463?-1515) was the son of Nezahualcoyotl. He ruled Texcoco from the age of eight or nine until his death (some say disappearance) at the age of 52. The usual translation is "Fasting Prince" or "Hungry Prince" but I suspect that, given the obvious metaphor, something like "Penitent Prince" might be closer. This would seem to fit Tezcatlipoca, especially in his manifestation as Telpochtli. As to you third question, The Texcoca were allies of the Mexica, if at times uncomfortable ones, until they sided with the Spanish against Motecuhzoma several years after Nezahualpilli's death. -- Kevin Paul Smith ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu On Tue, 19 Feb 2002, Paul Anderson wrote: > In a very generous reply to an earlier query, one listmember provided me > with a list of epithets for Tezcatlipoca, as the Enemy of Both sides > (part of which I enclose below). I have no Nahuatl, but one epithet > appears more than once: > nezahualpilli. > > Two questions: > 1) Am I correct in thinking that Nezahualpilli was also the name of the > son (grandson?) of the Nezahualcoyotl? > 2) If the latter means roughly 'fasting coyote' how might Nezahualpilli > be translated? > > Leading, I suppose to a third: does it seem plausible that the stories > of Nezahualpilli and Nezahualcoyotl going forth from Texcoco to > challenge Moctezuma II and I respectively, have a mythic dimension ... > with the Mexica figures in some sense acting as doubles for Quetzalcoatl > / Tezcatlipoca? > > > ihuan quitocayotique, titlacahuan, ihuan yaotl, *necoc* yaotl, > moyocoya, nezahualpilli.. > and they [also] named him titlacauan, and yaotl, necoc > yaotl, moyocoya, ne?aualpilli. (b.1 f.4 p.67). > From mdmorris at indiana.edu Wed Feb 20 16:44:08 2002 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:44:08 -0500 Subject: Bleeding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Would anyone be willing to share information about the religious-ritual dimensions of "tenehua" as a modifying (or compounded) verb in other ritual discursive acts such as singing? Secondly, is the place Tlatlachialoyan familiar to anyone in any context? The case I have states it is a "great city" where Saint San Nicolas will observe us with compassion. Thanks in atrance, Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From carlossn at ui.boe.es Thu Feb 21 10:12:38 2002 From: carlossn at ui.boe.es (Carlos Santamarina Novillo) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:12:38 +0100 Subject: ixtlahua/debt Message-ID: Yes, I think too that the ?metaphysical considerations? had obscured the social reality about human sacrifice. I think that about this issue is very appropriate the use of pike?s terms emics (the native sources? reasoning) and etics (the scholar?s conclusions), as in many other cases. I am very interested about teteuctin as teteo, or rulers as gods. Can you specify your sources about the divine consideration of rulers? Thank you - Carlos Santamarina "Richard Haly" ha escrito: > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:22:05 -0700 > Subject: Re: ixtlahua/debt > From: richard haly > To: Frances Karttunen , > > I can likewise take issue with most representations of sacrifice as > debt-payement to gods when concepts such as debt, payment, and gods go > > unexamined. From my research, nextlahualiztli makes most sense as > payment to > the rulers (likewise teotl). When people say that the Aztecs thought > the > Spaniards were "gods" - teules- it makes them (the Aztecs) seem pretty > > credulous when we think of "gods" in any Judeo-Christian manner. > Nonetheless, when one considers that they called their own rulers > "gods" and > treated them as such - not looking in to the brightness of the face of > the > emperor/sun - then any debt-payment to gods can be a debt-payment to > rulers. All sacrifice phenomena - and all festival and pilgrimage > phenomena > as well - make much more sense when one tries to understand them in > this > world and not in some metaphysical or "religious" way. (Religious is > in > quotation marks because most people think religion is about > "spiritual" > stuff and not "material" stuff because that is what their own > religions have > told them. That is not the case in a culture of embodied ancestors - > Mesoamerica, for one.) Sacrifice is much more like kula-exchange among > > Trobriand islanders. An explanation of sacrifice whose dynamics do not > rely > on metaphysical language or a transcendent agent has a greater chance > of > making real sense. > > Richard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Fri Feb 22 17:28:19 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:28:19 -0600 Subject: English > Nahuatl translator Message-ID: I am posting this at the request of the person who sent it to me originally. Please DO NOT reply to the whole list, reply directly to the poster: "senthilnathan" From: "senthilnathan" To: Subject: English > Nahuatl translator Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 03:52:15 +0530 Dear Mr J F Schwaller, We, Globalingo, are a translation company, now seeking an English > Nahuatl translator for a short translation work. We hope that you may help us to find a Nahuatl translator for us. Sorry for sending this unsolicitied/disturbing mail. We are specializing translation services in ethnic/minority/rare languages. We seek your nice help in this regard. Thanks for your time and Best Regards Senthil Nathan CE Globalingo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 26, Arcot Road Chennai 600028 INDIA ph:91-44-6540347 email: senthilnathan at eth.net web: http://www.globalingo.com From MPSpillers at aol.com Sat Feb 23 00:56:54 2002 From: MPSpillers at aol.com (MPSpillers at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 19:56:54 EST Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE? Message-ID: Hi, folks - Can someone please please PLEASE tell me how to unsubscribe from this list? Thanks, mpspillers at aol.com From malinal at evhr.net Mon Feb 18 09:38:37 2002 From: malinal at evhr.net (Alexis Wimmer) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:38:37 +0100 Subject: tecuichpotzin Message-ID: Kevin, Miahuaxoxhitzin is a mispelling for Miahuaxochitzin Miahuatl or miyahuatl means corn tassel or spikelets. Best, Alexis http://www.ifrance.com/nahuatl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin P Smith" To: Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 12:35 AM Subject: tecuichpotzin > Dear Nahuatlatos, > > Another name question. In an article on Isabel de Moctezuma, D. Chipman > follows Conway, calling her Tecuichpotzin. Is this a metathetic mispelling > that should be read Tecuipochtzin, meaning "royal young lady" or is there > another possible interpretation? > > Secondly, Alva Ixlilxochitl refers to her as Miahuaxoxhitzin. Could > someone please offer a translation of the form /miawa/ ? > > Thanks in advance. > > -- > Kevin Paul Smith > University of California Santa Barbara > ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu >