From bcoon at montana.edu Wed Jan 2 18:39:13 2002 From: bcoon at montana.edu (Coon, Brad) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:39:13 -0700 Subject: references to 'book'/'archive'/'library' in Flo.Codex? Message-ID: My current library does not have a copy of the Anderson and Dibble translation of the Florentine Codex. I am researching books and book collections/libraries/archives in Mexica and Mayan societies. If you are aware of which volumes contain any references to these items, I would appreciate the information as would my Interlibrary Loan staff! If you know of references in other sources, that infomation would be appreciated as well. I don't expect any of you to do the work for me, I just don't want to miss any of the either the obvious or the obscure sources. Thanks for your assistance, Brad Coon Reference Librarian The Libraries-Montana State University bcoon at montana.edu (406) 994-6026 From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at Thu Jan 3 04:15:20 2002 From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 05:15:20 +0100 Subject: references to 'book'/'archive'/'library' in Flo.Codex? Message-ID: Apart from Sahagún (especially lib. X), I would consult fray Molina who lists various Nahuatl expressions for "librero", "libreria", "registro de libros" etc (although some terms might be already influenced by colonial usage). Some other works (e.g. Ixtlilxochitl) contain scattered but valuable references... Best Juergen "Coon, Brad" schrieb: > My current library does not have a copy of the Anderson and Dibble > translation of the Florentine Codex. > I am researching books and book collections/libraries/archives in Mexica and > Mayan societies. If you are aware of > which volumes contain any references to these items, I would appreciate the > information as would my > Interlibrary Loan staff! > > If you know of references in other sources, that infomation would be > appreciated as well. > > I don't expect any of you to do the work for me, I just don't want to miss > any of the either the obvious > or the obscure sources. > Thanks for your assistance, > > Brad Coon > Reference Librarian > The Libraries-Montana State University > bcoon at montana.edu (406) 994-6026 -- Juergen Stowasser Burggasse 114/2/8 A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a Austria tel: 01/ 524 54 60 v 0676/ 398 66 79 http://www.univie.ac.at/meso From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx Tue Jan 8 16:59:59 2002 From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:59:59 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl studies in Zacatecas Message-ID: Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Summer Studies en Modern and Classical Náhuatl July 1-August 2 (five weeks) I. Fours weeks of classroom study (Monday through Friday) A. Two hours per day of Modern Huastecan Náhuatl conversation taught by native speaking teachers. B. Two hours per day in transcription and translation of unpublished nahua colonial manuscripts. II. One week visit to a Nahua community in the Huastecan region. Students will live with a nahua family for five days. Cost: One thousand dollars. This includes tuition and all course materials, as well as all the expenses related to the Huasteca trip (round-trip transportation between Zacatecas and the Huasteca, room and board). Not included are transportation between wherever you are coming from and Zacatecas, and room and board during the four week classroom period (although we will help you with these arangements). I will only admit 14 students for the session. Those interested may contact me at jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx The Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas is a non-profit organization I have set up which grants scholarships to Mexican indigenous students so that they may do their undergraduate or graduate studies in Zacatecas. The students dedicate 10-15 hours per week to the Institute teaching classes in their native language and/or participating in research projects. I will be setting up a web site soon which will describe the Institute in more detail, as well as the services it provides. John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor del Centro de Estudios Prospectivos de la Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas. Director del Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Av. Guerrero 227, int.12 Col. Centro Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Tel y fax (52-492) 922-1709 jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx From indus56 at telusplanet.net Tue Jan 15 00:48:39 2002 From: indus56 at telusplanet.net (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:48:39 -0700 Subject: Enemy of Both Sides Message-ID: Dear listmembers, I have run across many epithets for Tezcatlipoca. Broken-face. He-who-causes-things-to-be-seen-in-a-mirror. Drum-coyote. Enemy-of-Both-Sides. Would anyone on the list know the Nahuatl for this? Enemy of Both Sides, I mean. gratefully, Paul Anderson From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Jan 15 01:59:04 2002 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 20:59:04 -0500 Subject: Enemy of Both Sides In-Reply-To: <3C437C66.930A152F@telusplanet.net> Message-ID: Paul, Here are all (I think) the occurrences of "necoc [both] yaotl [enemy]" in the Florentine Codex. Book and page numbers are given in the Dibble and Anderson translation (the 'f.' number is irrelevant.) Joe necoc** 1. tetzalan, tenepantla motecaya: ipampa i, mitoaya *necoc* yaotl,. he brought discord among people, wherefore he was called "the enemy on both sides." (b.1 f.1 p.5). 2. ihuan quitocayotique, titlacahuan, ihuan yaotl, *necoc* yaotl, moyocoya, nezahualpilli.. and they [also] named him titlacauan, and yaotl, necoc yaotl, moyocoya, ne�aualpilli. (b.1 f.4 p.67). 3. in icuac nemia tlalticpac, yaoyotl quiyolitiaya, yehuatl quiyolitiaya in teuhtli, in tlazolli, cococ, teopouhqui tepan quichihuaya, tetzalan tenepantla, moquetzaya: ipampa i, motenehua *necoc* yaotl, teca. when he walked upon the earth he quickened war; he quickened vice, filth; he brought anguish, affliction to men; he brought discord among men, wherefore he was called "the enemy on both sides. (b.1 f.4 p.68). 4. auh in titlacahuan, no quitocayotiaya tezcatlipoca, moyocoyatzi, yaotzi, *necoc* yaotl, nezahualpilli:. and titlacauan they also named tezcatlipoca, moyocoyatzin, yaotzin, necoc yaotl, ne�aualpilli. (b.3 f.1 p.12). 5. intla oquichtli otlacat, ic quinotza miquiz, anozo yaotl, ceniaotl, *necoc* yaotl, chicoyaotl, yaomahuitl,. if a boy had been born, they therefore called forth [as his name] miquiz, or yaotl, cenyaotl, necoc yaotl, chicoyaotl, or yaomauitl. (b.4 f.4 p.34). 6. ic ei capitulo, oncan motenehua: in tlatolli in huel inyollocopa quitoaya, inic quitlatlauhtiaya tezcatlipoca: in quitocayotiaya yaotl *necoc* yaotl, monenequi: inic quitlaniliaya in tepalehuiliztli, in ihcuac yaoyotl mochihuaya.. third chapter. here are related the words which they uttered from their very hearts as they prayed to tezcatlipoca, whom they named yaotl, necoc yaotl, monenqui, to request aid when war was waged. (b.6 f.1 p.11). 7. *necoc* yaotl:. the traitor (b.10 f.2 p.38). 8. in *necoc* yaotl, ca chiquimoli,. the traitor is a gossip. (b.10 f.2 p.38). tinecoc** 9. auh inic *tinecoc* yaotzin, inic timoyocalatzin, inic timoquequeloa, inic ayac motempan: ma xicmotlahuantili, ma xicmihuintili, ma xicmoxocomictili in toyaouh,. "and as thou art necoc yaotl, as thou art moyocoyatzin, as thou art moquequeloa, so that none be at thy borders, intoxicate our foes; inebriate them, make them drunk." (b.6 f.2 p.14). On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Paul Anderson wrote: > Dear listmembers, > I have run across many epithets for Tezcatlipoca. > Broken-face. > He-who-causes-things-to-be-seen-in-a-mirror. > Drum-coyote. > Enemy-of-Both-Sides. > > Would anyone on the list know the Nahuatl for this? Enemy of Both Sides, > > I mean. > > gratefully, > Paul Anderson > > > From js9211 at csc.albany.edu Tue Jan 15 15:59:58 2002 From: js9211 at csc.albany.edu (SANCHEZ JOANNA M) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 10:59:58 -0500 Subject: Enemy of Both Sides In-Reply-To: <3C437C66.930A152F@telusplanet.net> Message-ID: I am glad that someone has brought up the subject of Tezcatlipoca's epithets, as I've been considering his self-identification in the Historia Tolteca Chichimeca: "Am I not two? Am I not three?" "mach nome mach ney." I'm not sure I am convinced by the Preuss and Mengin explanation that it refers to physical strength. I do believe that Kirchoff, et al are correct in positing that these are abbreviations for names (calendrical shorthand, perhaps?). Has this problem been reconsidered or solved? Thanks- Joanna > > From js9211 at csc.albany.edu Thu Jan 17 17:07:02 2002 From: js9211 at csc.albany.edu (SANCHEZ JOANNA M) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:07:02 -0500 Subject: Southern Origin of Uto Aztecan hypothesis Message-ID: Hill's paper in the Dec.2001 American Anthropologist suggests support for Bellwood's hypothesis that Uto-Aztecan may have originated in the Mesoamerican zone of maize agricultural innovation(s). Does anyone have an opinion about this? I'd be very interested, and imagine others would be, as well. Joanna From Huaxyacac at aol.com Fri Jan 18 00:06:36 2002 From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:06:36 EST Subject: Southern Origin of Uto Aztecan hypothesis Message-ID: Joanna, I'm not qualified to judge Hill's comparative reconstructions, but her argument certainly made sense to me. I have no problems with a Uto-Aztecan homeland somewhere along the arc from the Bajio west through Jalisco, probably towards the western end. I am still personally reluctant to accept that Nahuatl was spoken at Teotihuacan or elsewhere in the Basin of Mexico during the Classic period, although I need to look at a couple of the things Hill cites. Alec Christensen From edwin at humanityquest.com Fri Jan 18 00:50:08 2002 From: edwin at humanityquest.com (Edwin Rutsch) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:50:08 -0800 Subject: Call; Article submission request for a book, Inspiration in Nahuatl Message-ID: I am looking for native speaking language experts to contribute a short 300 word article, on the meaning of the word for "Inspiration" in their language of expertise. This is for inclusion in an art book I am writing entitled "The Spirit of Inspiration". I would like to have at least 50 different languages represented in the book. I was wondering anyone has any suggestions, tips or leads on where I could find contributors in the Nahuatl language? The ideal contributor would be of Aztec heritage. The article would include aspects of the following about the the nature of inspiration; the definition, etymology, how it is expressed in the arts and the authors personal insights. I have created a detailed submission guideline with a sample article which you can view at this URL; http://Humanityquest.com/Themes/Inspiration/ArticleGuidelines/index.asp List of existing languages and contributors humanityquest.com/Themes/Inspiration/ArticleGuidelines/ContributorsList. htm Is there a word for Inspiration in Nahuatl that comes to mind? Any comments would be most appreciated. I can be reached directly at edwin at humanityquest.com Thank You Edwin Edwin Rutsch edwin at humanityquest.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LaVoz at Aztlan.Net Fri Jan 18 03:44:57 2002 From: LaVoz at Aztlan.Net (La Voz de Aztlan) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:44:57 -0800 Subject: Vatican to Canonize Cuauhtlatoahtzin (Juan Diego) Message-ID: Vatican to Canonize Cuauhtlatoahtzin (Juan Diego) Pope John Paul II to visit Tenochtitlan in July by Miroslava Flores La Voz de Aztlan Los Angeles, Alta California - 1/17/2001 - (ACN) The Vatican "Il Messaggero" has issued a press release that Pope Paul II will be in Tenochtitlan (Mexico City) from July 28th to the 30th to officially Canonize the now Blessed Juan Diego whose original Mexica name was Cuauhtlatoahtzin. Juan Diego was Beatified in April, 1990 by the Pope. The next and last step is "Sainthood" and this process will begin as soon as "Canonization" is accomplished. The Mexica, Juan Diego, is revered in Mexico because he was instrumental in unifying indigenous spiritual beliefs with Christianity. Soon after Catholic Hernan Cortez and his Spanish soldiers conquered the great Mexica capital of Tenochtitltan, there ensued a bloody clash between indigenous religious beliefs and the Christian Catholic religion. The apparition of Tecuauhtlacuepeuh (Virgen de Guadalupe) to Juan Diego in Tepeyac, at the very place that the Mexicas worshiped the goddess Tonantzin, had a very powerful unifying effect between new world religious beliefs and the old. Tonantzin was the goddess of earth and corn and the name means “our mother" in Nahuatl, the Mexica language. The apparition took place one day in 1531 as Juan Diego passed the sacred place of Tepeyac. As he reached Tepeyac, he stopped and stood still, disbelieving the heavenly fragrance he smelled and celestial music he heard. Before him shone a glowing cloud surrounded by rainbows. Then Tecuauhtlacuepeuh emerged, robed in blue and gold and rose. She calmed his fears, calling him “little son,” and urging him to return to the city and request the bishop to build a shrine to her on the very place of the fallen goddess Tonantzin. The bishop did not believe Juan Diego and sent him away. Ashamed of his failure, Juan avoided Tepeyac, but Tecuauhtlacuepeuh found him and urged him once again. It was not until the third time, however, that she sent proof of her appearance and the miracle. She told Juan Diego to pick the Castilian roses, which do not exist in that climate but were miraculously growing right in front of him. He gathered them using his tilma and approached the church dignitary. Juan Diego unfolded his tilma and the bishop saw that emblazoned on the front was a beautiful olive skin lady and the miraculous blossoms laying at her feet. The bishop asked Juan Diego who the lady was and he answered Tecuauhtlacuepeuh which in Nahuatl sounds like "guadalupe". The bishop associated the lady with the Muslim Spanish Madonna "Our Lady of Guadalupe" that was venerated high in the Estremadura Mountains. As the Moslems swept through Spain in the 8th century, a great religious treasure was buried for safe-keeping in the earth, in the Estremadura Mountains. It was a much venerated statue of Our Lady holding the Divine Child Jesus that was a gift of Pope Gregory the Great to Bishop Leander of Seville. After the overthrow of Moorish occupation, the image was uncovered in the year 1326, subsequent to a vision of Our Lady to a humble shepherd by the name of Gil. Our Lady's very special statue was enshrined in a nearby Franciscan Monastery next to the "Wolf River." The Moslems, during their Spanish occupation, had actually named the river. The Islamic term for Wolf River is "Guadalupe" (Guada = River; Lupe = Wolf). Hence, the famous Catholic image in Spain has been known, since the 14th century, by the Islamic name of "Our Lady of Guadalupe." The bishop named the Mexican Madonna "Our Lady of Guadalupe." It is interesting that the "crescent" under the feet of "Our Lady of Guadalupe" is also the symbol for Islam. Today, "Our Lady of Guadalupe" is known in Mexico as " La Virgen de Guadalupe" or "Nuestra Senora La Virgen de Guadalupe" but the name that she originally gave Cuauhtlatoahtzin or Juan Diego was Tecuauhtlacuepeuh. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This article along with beautiful paintings of Cuauhtlatoahtzin (Juan Diego) and Tecuauhtlacuepeuh (La Virgen de Guadalupe) are published at: http://www.aztlan.net/juandiego.htm. From liccuriel at hotmail.com Fri Jan 18 19:49:31 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 19:49:31 +0000 Subject: Juan Diego and Guadalupe Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From liccuriel at hotmail.com Fri Jan 18 20:39:14 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 20:39:14 +0000 Subject: Apariciones Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From crodriguez at tec.com.mx Fri Jan 18 21:05:21 2002 From: crodriguez at tec.com.mx (Claudia Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 15:05:21 -0600 Subject: Juan Diego and Guadalupe Message-ID: Is this subject restricted as well as the morality of human sacrifices among aztecs or only the last one? thanks Claudia Rodríguez ----- Original Message ----- From: Elisabeth Curiel To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 1:49 PM Subject: Juan Diego and Guadalupe Sencillamente no puedo creer que en el siglo XXI aun haya gente que crea en el mito de las apariciones de la Virgen Guadalupe al indio Juan Diego. La Iglesia era dueña absoluta de los indios, de sus tierras, de sus bienes materiales, pero no satisfechos con ello, planearon subyugar sus espíritus por medio de un mito cursi, digno más de las historias medievales que de mentes científicas del siglo XX. No he encontrado ninguna fuente fidedigna que avale semejante cuento, peor si he encontrado inumerables testimonios sobre el pésimo comportamiento, de las mentiras y de los engaños a los que ha sometido la Iglesia a nuestros indígenas. Si alguien tiene curiosidad, por favor lea el tomo IV de "Mexico a Través de los Siglos", escrito por varios eruditos. Con todo respeto. Elisabeth Curiel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN Photos es la manera más sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus fotos. http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From liccuriel at hotmail.com Fri Jan 18 21:30:23 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 21:30:23 +0000 Subject: Apariciones Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From liccuriel at hotmail.com Sat Jan 19 21:36:11 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:36:11 +0000 Subject: Human Sacrifices Message-ID: Dear Cristine: Attached to this email, I am sending an extract from Rethorica Christiana, a very rare documento written in Latin, by Fray Diego Valadez O.F.M. in 1576. In 1989, Doctor Rubén Bonifaz Nuño and a group of scholars traslated the document into Spanish. The extract I am sending you is only a very small part of the book that makes reference to the indians religious practices. The rest of the whole book, as its name indicates, is about Rethorica. And, my comments on your letter is this: human sacrifices were prohibited by Quetzalcóatl (real name: Precious Twin, the serpent and the feathers were only glyphs to represent “Precious” and “Twin” (Venus) in their writings). Aztecs regarded the Precios Twin or Quetzalcóatl as a symbol of Priesthood, nobility and power over the rest of the world. But Aztecs worshiped Huitzilopochtli as their ruler deity. Of course, all the oral traditions on Quetzalcoatl must be very cautiosly taken, since they are so many and so different. The symbol of the Eagle and the Serpent has this only meaning: The Sun God, the Aztec’s, God defeated Toltec’s god, the Precious Twin, or coatl. But they still, kept their priesthood (the defeated old Toltec’s precious priesthood, so they (the Aztecs) named their Supreme Priests “Quetzalcoatl”). The relators and sourcers of Fray Bernardino de Sahagún, are a good reason to believe they practiced human sacrifices, and some hints you get when you visit those aztec ruins in the heart of Mexico City, and I can’t easily regard, all XVI century historians as liers. Elisabeth Curiel _________________________________________________________________ Con MSN Hotmail súmese al servicio de correo electrónico más grande del mundo. http://www.hotmail.com/ES -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: VALADEZ.doc Type: application/msword Size: 24064 bytes Desc: not available URL: From liccuriel at hotmail.com Sun Jan 20 17:55:55 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 17:55:55 +0000 Subject: Quetzalcoatl Message-ID: To Brant: Brant: [ am not sure that the Mexica understood Quetzalcoatl as "precious twin"] Lisita: Quetzalcoatl-Venus was worshiped in many important cities such as Teotihuacan and Tula, many many centuries before the Aztecs. They indeed knwe all the meaning of the ancient religion, but I doubt that Aztecs would give away any precious and sacred knowledge related to their highest priesthood, such as that of the venerable and old god Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli-Quetzalcoatl. The little they let us know is that they believed he ruled the sky at noon (the twelfth hour of the day). They performed some rituals when Venus aligned with the pleiades. Brant: [even though one might be able to pull that meaning out of the use of coa- for twin] Lisita: I see you know nahuatl. Then you can guess what glyph Aztecs used to represent a twin in their writings and statues to represent that God (The precious twin). There were two enormous Quetzalcoatl heads in the entrance of the Great Temple, that the friars described as "monstruosas" and "espantables". (Those good Those innocent and sweet friars, and I mean it, because I respect them very much) “Leyenda de los Soles” is a dark and inexplicable document. Nobody can dare to say that can interpret it. But now that you mention it, would you like to discuse some of tose dark paragraphs? Like the meaning of the "heycomitl" in paragraph 2, that Primo Feliciano Velazquez (nahuatlato) called in Spanish "biznaga". The paragraph says: "Mixcóatl el menor huyó, escapó de sus manos y se metió apresudado dentro de una biznaga -or hueycomitl" I don't like Primo Feliciano Velazquez biased interpretation. Do you know of someone else's translation, available. I live in México, of course, and you don't know how great advance Internet has been to us. We can now talk to people like all you. Elisabeth _________________________________________________________________ Descargue GRATUITAMENTE MSN Explorer en http://explorer.yupimsn.com/intl.asp From liccuriel at hotmail.com Sun Jan 20 19:33:17 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:33:17 +0000 Subject: la nobleza azteca Message-ID: Apreciada Cristine: Desafortunadamente, la Inquisición, la evolución cultural natural de los tiempos, el desconocimiento de los antiguos secretos sagrados del sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e impresionar a los buenos reyes españoles, y muchos otros factores más, distorsionaron la información que nos dejaron los historiadores precortesianos, y ahora nos obligan (como las cocineras que sacan los negritos del arroz) a buscar cuidadosamente las verdades entre todos aquellos escritos y fuentes de los que podemos valernos para adquirir conocimiento sobre la civilización, la religión y la lengua de los antiguos. Los Aztecas tenían una nobleza, no igual, pero si a la manera de la de los europeos, los africanos, los asiáticos, etc. y en general, a la manera de la que han tenido todas las civilizaciones antiguas importantes. Supongo que recordarás de entre la información que has leído, que los aztecas, para convertirse ellos en un pueblo con ascendencia sobre los demás, cuando apenas eran una tribu nómada salvaje e insignificante, casaron a su primer rey con una princesa tolteca para dar legitimidad a su reinado. (oh ya se, alguien me va a contestar que no eran insignificantes, por favor no se molesten en ese tipo de controversias) Citaré la fuente más fidedigna que conozco, que dice: “13 calli. En este año fue traido Acamapichtli a Tenochtitlan; fue a traerle de Tetzcoco la mujer Illancueyetl [de ascendencia noble tolteca]. 1 tochtli. En este 1 tochtli se dieron rey los teochcas. Entonces se entronizó Acamapixtli en Tenochtitlan. Según se dice, solamente su mujer Illancueytl le constitutó rey. Ahí comenzó la monarquía de los mexicanos.” Anales de Cuauhtitlan, traducción de Primo Feliciano Felazquez. párrafo 129. Atentamente, Elisabeth Curiel _________________________________________________________________ Descargue GRATUITAMENTE MSN Explorer en http://explorer.yupimsn.com/intl.asp From mdmorris at indiana.edu Mon Jan 21 16:25:41 2002 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:25:41 -0500 Subject: Southern Origin of Uto Aztecan hypothesis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Johanna, My apologies for the late reply, but the state of our technology in Santa Ana Chiautempan sometimes complicates getting out timely responses. I would be interested in hearing more about Hill's argument if you could provide further information. Like Alec, I also lean toward a western hypothesis (whether north or south I know not) for eruption of Nahuatl in central and eastern Mexico and the consequent separation of "Mayan" languages into northern and southern branches, and I believe that the Rio Balsas-Rio Atoyac route into the Tlaxcala-Puebla valley would be the probable route of Nahuatl's migration into central-eastern Mesoamerica. Given the clear presence of Nahuatl in the culture of the Olmeca-Xicallanca who establish in Cholula and Cacaxtla by 650 A.D. and who had been the key mediators of long distance trade between Teotihuacan and the region of the Usamacinta River, I have a hard time imagining that Nahuatl was not a key part of the fluorescence of culture, commerce and communication in the "Classic" period of Teotihuacan and Cholula. Below follow some thoughts on your earlier posting on Tezcatlipoca and a passage from a personal letter written in Tlaxcala (Panotlan) in 1743 that may be of some related interest to you. I think your reading of Tezcatlipoca as being "two and three" as specific manifestations is correct and that Tezcatlipoca was a strong tutelary god because he was many, or omnipresent. For example, his various names probably point not only to different metaphorical expressions of Tezcatlipoca but also traces of older Mesoamerican deities such as jaguar that were applied to Tezcatlipoca and that brought different calendar and festival associations to the cult of Tezcatlipoca. Zapata y Mendoza's citation of the Franciscans' whipping of a youth who appeared as Necoc Yaotl in San Sebastin Matlahuacala also gives the impression that Necoc Yaotl had his own distinct atavios. Whether by accretion of older traditions or metaphorical elaboration, the sum of Tezcatlipoca in postclassic Mexico as a omnipresent "trickster" god associated with war, night and water easily reconciles the two interpretations offered by Preuss and Mengin and Kirchoff: being two or three refers to being many or being "omnipresent," a chief molder of human affairs who can assure the Tolteca-Xicallanca victory against the Olmeca-Xicallanca. Text: Auh tlazo mahuistic Pilic onicnequisquia oniYesquia niMiquetzin nozo ni Santiago = mah onimohquepani niYey nozo ninahui ycah nimismohmahquili pahquili in san nozel yhuan totlazo mahuisnantzin ycah nixicos. P.S. In honor of your comments on Tezcatlipoca, Luis Reyes' Nahuatl seminar translated this letter on Saturday past, that which would be available to you, if there are no more tricks played here while I'm trying to be so quiet. Sincerely, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From Huaxyacac at aol.com Tue Jan 22 04:34:11 2002 From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:34:11 EST Subject: Southern Origin of Uto Aztecan hypothesis Message-ID: In a message dated 01/21/2002 11:28:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, mdmorris at indiana.edu writes: > I also lean toward a western > hypothesis (whether north or south I know not) for eruption of Nahuatl in > central and eastern Mexico and the consequent separation of "Mayan" > languages into northern and southern branches, and I believe that the Rio > Balsas-Rio Atoyac route into the Tlaxcala-Puebla valley would be the > probable route of Nahuatl's migration into central-eastern Mesoamerica. Given my current work in the Mezquital, this makes sense to me, as I am quite sure that Nahuatl was not spoken in that area in the Postclassic except by elites and small migrant groups. I don't see any evidence for a sea of Otomi migrants arriving prior to that, so I assume it (or an ancestral form) has been spoken across Hidalgo for a long time, if not since the initial divergence from proto-Otomanguean. Nahuatl entering from the west rather than the north fits with this. > Given the clear presence of Nahuatl in the culture of the > Olmeca-Xicallanca who establish in Cholula and Cacaxtla by 650 A.D. and > who had been the key mediators of long distance trade between Teotihuacan > and the region of the Usamacinta River, I have a hard time imagining that > Nahuatl was not a key part of the fluorescence of culture, commerce and > communication in the "Classic" period of Teotihuacan and Cholula. I'm curious what you base the linguistic identity of the Olmeca-Xicallanca on. I'm not disputing the statement, although I still am inclined to think that the major movement of Nahua-speakers came in the Epiclassic, not the Classic, I'm just curious what amounts to a "clear presence." Alec Christensen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Jan 22 16:05:37 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:05:37 -0600 Subject: la nobleza azteca Message-ID: approve: Nahuatl.pass Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:13:38 +0100 From: Carlos Santamarina Novillo To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu Subject: Re: la nobleza azteca Elisabeth Curiel ha escrito: > Desafortunadamente, la Inquisición, la evolución cultural natural de > los > tiempos, el desconocimiento de los antiguos secretos sagrados del > sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e impresionar a los buenos reyes > españoles, > y muchos otros factores más, distorsionaron la información que nos > dejaron > los historiadores precortesianos, y ahora nos obligan (como las > cocineras > que sacan los negritos del arroz) a buscar cuidadosamente las verdades > entre > todos aquellos escritos y fuentes de los que podemos valernos para > adquirir > conocimiento sobre la civilización, la religión y la lengua de los > antiguos. Analicemos-interpretemos el texto. Hay un protagonista central: "la información que nos dejaron los historiadores precortesianos" que sufre la acción de un verbo: "fue distorsionada"; y una serie de factores causantes de la negativa acción de ese verbo: "la Inquisición, la evolución natural de los tiempos, el desconocimiento de los antiguos secretos sagrados del sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e impresionar a los buenos reyes españoles, etc." Lo anterior nos obliga -a los historiadores modernos- a tratar de desandar aquel proceso para recuperar "las verdades". No cabe duda, entonces de la identificación que la autora lleva a cabo entre aquel protagonista central y este último objetivo actual, es decir, entre "la información que nos dejaron los historiadores precortesianos" y "las verdades". Subyace una interpretación maniquea y simplista -desgraciadamente todavía muy extendida en México- que identifica verdad, legitimidad, justicia con los aquí llamados "precortesianos", mientras a los españoles corresponden las "virtudes" opuestas. Se diría que fueron los españoles los que introdujeron en Mesoamérica la mentira y las versiones historiográficas asociadas al poder. Manida, simplista, maniquea y aburrida visión de la historia humana. Las fuentes indígenas, como cualquier otra, han de ser sometidas a crítica para aprender a reconocer las versiones interesadas que de su propia historia dieron las élites indígenas. Cualquiera que esté introducido en el tema conoce el etnocentrismo característico de la historiografía indígena, y los Anales de Cuauhtitlan son un ejemplo destacado. Además, siendo la azteca una sociedad estratificada, con clases o estamentos diferenciados, no sorprende que la historia estuviera al servicio del poder, que Itzcóatl mandara quemar los viejos "papeles pintados" y reescribir la historia a la mayor gloria de los nuevos señores. Sólo citar las fuentes derivadas de la llamada "Crónica X" o la obra de Fdo. de Alva Ixtlilxóchitl es ya referirse a parcialidad interesada, etnocentrismo y tendenciosidad. Todo lo anterior sólo viene a concluir que la lucha del historiador moderno en búsqueda de la verdad ha de tener en cuenta todos los "estratos de tergiversación" y subjetividad que las fuentes han venido atravesando desde su misma gestación. Y eso no se detiene en 1521, sino que afecta a todos los periodos de la historia humana. Gracias y a seguir bien. < Carlos Santamarina Novillo --- carlossn at diploma.com > From liccuriel at hotmail.com Tue Jan 22 16:23:23 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:23:23 +0000 Subject: nobleza azteca Message-ID: Carlos Santamaría: Entre toda tu baraúnta de disertaciones pretenciosas con que me apabullaste, no entendi qué quisiste decir exactamente. ¿Etnocentrismo? No, no no. Los tiempos evolucionan. Te pondré un ejemplo: En tiempos de mi trisabuela (hace más de 80 años), decirle "macho" a un hombre, era el mayor halago que se le podría decir. Si yo le digo eso a un hombre hoy, me fulmina con la mirada. Y por supuesto que lo que hicieron los colonizadores del Nuevo Mundo fue muy influenciante, pero ¡qué se le hace compadre! Los reyes españoles se cansaron de redactar cédular, nombrar visitadores, etc., para vigilar que sus vasallos obedecieran sus ordenanzas y que no terminaran con los naturales del pais como hicieron con los de la Española; y nada que los ambiciosos colonizadores continuaron haciendo esclavos, robándoles sus "sementeras", herrándoles las mejillas como a animales, creando encomiendas, y muchas lindezas más. ¿Etnocentrismo? ni siquiera tienes idea de lo que dices. Y respecto a los Anales de Cuauhtitlan, que fueron rescatadas por don Fernando de Alba, mi comentario fue sobre la inexactitud de la traducción que hizo Primo Feliciano Velazquez, un nahuatlato, quien indudablemente estaba fuertemente influenciada por los motivos mencionados en mi carta, y de los cuales haces mofa con tanta gracia. Te pondré un ejemplo obvio: noto que el traductor, un descendiente de nobles, traduce "nopiltzin", como "mi hijo", al referirse a Quetzalcóuatl, cuando los "demonios" van a engañarlo, y no lo traduce como "nuestro príncipe", como debería ser más propio al dirigirse a un rey de la altura del Gemelo Precioso. Por supuesto, que nopiltzin podría traducirse como mi hijo, pero no en este caso, digo, soy un poco lerda y puedo equivocarme. ¿Acaso en la antiguedad, cuando se presentaba un extraño ante un rey, le llamaba "mi hijito"? Si es así, por favor cita fuentes. Texto citado: "Quilhui nopiltzin tlamacazqui ca nimomacehual ompanihuitzin nonohualcatepetl itzintlan maxicmottili in monacayotzin, niman cenmacac in Tetzcatl quilhui maxi miximati maxi mottanopiltzin ø ca ompa tonneciz in tetzcatl." Primo Feliciano traduce: "Aquél respondió: “Hijo mío, sacerdote, yo soy tu vasallo; vengo de la falda de Nonohualcatépetl; mira señor, tu cuerpo. Luego le dio el espejo y le dijo: “Mirate y conócete, hijo mio; que has de aparecer en el espejo.” Lisita Curiel PS (Lo del diminutivo es etno-egocentrismo eh?) >From: Carlos Santamarina Novillo >To: Elisabeth Curiel , nahuatl-l at mrs.umn.edu >Subject: Re: la nobleza azteca >Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:31:21 +0100 > > >Elisabeth Curiel ha escrito: > > > Desafortunadamente, la Inquisición, la evolución cultural natural de los > > tiempos, el desconocimiento de los antiguos secretos sagrados del > > sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e impresionar a los buenos reyes >españoles, > > y muchos otros factores más, distorsionaron la información que nos >dejaron > > los historiadores precortesianos, y ahora nos obligan (como las >cocineras > > que sacan los negritos del arroz) a buscar cuidadosamente las verdades >entre > > todos aquellos escritos y fuentes de los que podemos valernos para >adquirir > > conocimiento sobre la civilización, la religión y la lengua de los >antiguos. > >Analicemos-interpretemos el texto. > >Hay un protagonista central: "la información que nos dejaron los >historiadores precortesianos" >que sufre la acción de un verbo: "fue distorsionada"; >y una serie de factores causantes de la negativa acción de ese verbo: >"la >Inquisición, la evolución natural de los tiempos, el desconocimiento de los >antiguos secretos sagrados del sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e >impresionar a >los buenos reyes españoles, etc." > Lo anterior nos obliga -a los historiadores modernos- a tratar de >desandar >aquel proceso para recuperar "las verdades". No cabe duda, entonces de la >identificación que la autora lleva a cabo entre aquel protagonista central >y >este último objetivo actual, es decir, entre "la información que nos >dejaron los >historiadores precortesianos" y "las verdades". > > Subyace una interpretación maniquea y simplista -desgraciadamente >todavía muy >extendida en México- que identifica verdad, legitimidad, justicia con los >aquí >llamados "precortesianos", mientras a los españoles corresponden las >"virtudes" >opuestas. Se diría que fueron los españoles los que introdujeron en >Mesoamérica >la mentira y las versiones historiográficas asociadas al poder. Manida, >simplista, maniquea y aburrida visión de la historia humana. > Las fuentes indígenas, como cualquier otra, han de ser sometidas a >crítica >para aprender a reconocer las versiones interesadas que de su propia >historia >dieron las élites indígenas. Cualquiera que esté introducido en el tema >conoce >el etnocentrismo característico de la historiografía indígena, y los Anales >de >Cuauhtitlan son un ejemplo destacado. Además, siendo la azteca una sociedad >estratificada, con clases o estamentos diferenciados, no sorprende que la >historia estuviera al servicio del poder, que Itzcóatl mandara quemar los >viejos >"papeles pintados" y reescribir la historia a la mayor gloria de los nuevos >señores. Sólo citar las fuentes derivadas de la llamada "Crónica X" o la >obra de >Fdo. de Alva Ixtlilxóchitl es ya referirse a parcialidad interesada, >etnocentrismo y tendenciosidad. > Todo lo anterior sólo viene a concluir que la lucha del historiador >moderno >en búsqueda de la verdad ha de tener en cuenta todos los "estratos de >tergiversación" y subjetividad que las fuentes han venido atravesando desde >su >misma gestación. Y eso no se detiene en 1521, sino que afecta a todos los >periodos de la historia humana. > >Gracias y a seguir bien. > >< Carlos Santamarina Novillo --- carlossn at diploma.com > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos es la manera más sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus fotos: http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue Jan 22 16:47:08 2002 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:47:08 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Glosas_en_nahuatl_del_C=F3dice_de_Huichapan?= Message-ID: Estimados listeros: El C'odice de Huichapan (ca. 1632) tiene muchas glosas alfab'eticas en otom'i, 111 en castellano y 22 en n'ahuatl. Necesito traducir las glosas en n'ahuatl para mi proyecto actual, pero mis conocimientos de esta lengua son todav'ia elementales. Algunas glosas son antrop'onimos, otras son top'onimos, hay un gentilicio y aparece una frase corta que se repite. A continuaci'on apuntar'e las traducciones que hice, con la petici'on de que las critiquen, y que me ayuden con las dos glosas que no pude resolver (nos. 13 y 14). He convertido las cedillas en zetas con asterisco (z*) para asegurar su transmisi'on por correo electr'onico. ******************************************** 1. (borrado) oqualoc yntonatiuh otlayoua. "(...) fue comido el Sol; oscureci'o" 2. Chimalpupuca. "Escudo humeante" 3. Yzcoatl. "Serpiente de obsidiana" 4. Quauhxilotl. "Jilote del 'aguila"; "jilote del bosque"; "jilote del 'arbol"; "jilote de madera" 5. Tultitlan. "Entre los juncos" 6. Quauhtitlan. "Junto al 'arbol"; "entre los 'arboles"; "en el bosque" 7. Ilhuicaminatl ueuemotecz*uma. "Se'nor enojado (que frunce las cejas) grande/viejo, flechador del cielo" 8. Maz*auaque. "Poseedores de los venados"; "mazahuas" (gentilicio) 9. Nican oqualoc yntonatiuh otlayoua. "Aqu'i fue comido el Sol; oscureci'o" 10. Uiz*octzin. "Venerado señor palanca de roble para labrar la tierra" 11. Axayacatzin. "Cara de agua" 12. Ylamatzin. "Venerada anciana" 13. Ticaltitzintiz*ocac. "(???)" 14. Ymexayac. "Cara de (???)" 15. (ilegible) xoch (roto). "(...) flor (...)" 16. Amaxtlac. "En el taparrabo de agua" 17. Tequantepec. "En el cerro del que come a alguien (animal antrop'ofago)"; "en el cerro que come a alguien (monta'na antrop'ofaga)" 18. (Se repite el top'onimo anterior) 19. Motecz*uma. "Se'nor enojado (que frunce las cejas)" 20. Teziuatl. "Mujer de piedra"; "mujer dura" 21. Z*opantepec. "En el cerro de la bandera de [???]" (¿Tzonpantepec / Tzompantepec, "en el cerro de la bandera de pelo" / "en el cerro de la bandera de la cabeza"?) 22. Nican oqualoc yn tonatiuh otlayoua. "Aqu'i fue comido el Sol; oscureci'o" ********************************************* Mil gracias de antemano por sus comentarios. Saludos, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue Jan 22 16:51:19 2002 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:51:19 -0600 Subject: Nahua origins Message-ID: Listeros: Regarding the controversy surrounding the presence of various linguistic groups in central Mexico during the Classic period, and in support of Alec's recent message, there are some elementary linguistic facts which should not be ignored. The Mesoamerican Otopames (speakers of Otomi, Mazahua, Matlatzinca and Ocuilteco) have a geographic distribution which parallels their linguistic affinities; that is to say, those groups which speak languages more closely related occupy adjacent or nearby territories. The obvious explanation for this is that their ancestors lived in approximately the same areas since before the related tongues branched off from an ancestral language. It's hard to imagine immigrants settling a landscape in accordance with a linguistic classification of which they were largely unaware. Glottochronology is admittedly an imprecise yardstick, but it gives us a very rough idea of when these languages diverged, and the Otopamean presence in the area goes back to the Formative and probably beyond, even allowing a margin of error of over five centuries for the glottochronological dates. Applying the same line of reasoning to the Nahuas, the lack of temporal depth in the central valleys of Mexico (compared with the Otopamean group) is evident and would seem to go back just to the Epiclassic and Postclassic periods. If Nahuas lived at Teotihuacan they were probably just an enclave like the Veracruzanos or the Oaxaqueños; a Nahua majority at Teotihuacan would probably have resulted in greater dialectological and glotochronological depth in the region. The fact that the closest linguistic relatives of the nahua-pochuteco group are all located in northwestern Mexico is revealing as to where their heartland lies. I also think these linguistic considerations fit well with the archaeological and ethnohistorical evidence available to date. Saludos, David Wright P.S. I haven't gotten my hands on the article which started this yet, but couldn't resist throwing in my two cents. I'll read it as I have the opportunity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LaVoz at Aztlan.Net Tue Jan 22 17:12:39 2002 From: LaVoz at Aztlan.Net (La Voz de Aztlan) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:12:39 -0800 Subject: nobleza azteca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is nothing but pure "bombastic verbosity" in Spanish!!! Too many Mexicans are proned to this sort of "bullshit" that uses too many high sounding verbs and nouns that say nothing. Enough! Ya Basta! La Voz de Aztlan http://www.aztlan.net On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:23:23 +0000 "Elisabeth Curiel" wrote: Carlos Santamaría: Entre toda tu baraúnta de disertaciones pretenciosas con que me apabullaste, no entendi qué quisiste decir exactamente. ¿Etnocentrismo? No, no no. Los tiempos evolucionan. Te pondré un ejemplo: En tiempos de mi trisabuela (hace más de 80 años), decirle "macho" a un hombre, era el mayor halago que se le podría decir. Si yo le digo eso a un hombre hoy, me fulmina con la mirada. Y por supuesto que lo que hicieron los colonizadores del Nuevo Mundo fue muy influenciante, pero ¡qué se le hace compadre! Los reyes españoles se cansaron de redactar cédular, nombrar visitadores, etc., para vigilar que sus vasallos obedecieran sus ordenanzas y que no terminaran con los naturales del pais como hicieron con los de la Española; y nada que los ambiciosos colonizadores continuaron haciendo esclavos, robándoles sus "sementeras", herrándoles las mejillas como a animales, creando encomiendas, y muchas lindezas más. ¿Etnocentrismo? ni siquiera tienes idea de lo que dices. Y respecto a los Anales de Cuauhtitlan, que fueron rescatadas por don Fernando de Alba, mi comentario fue sobre la inexactitud de la traducción que hizo Primo Feliciano Velazquez, un nahuatlato, quien indudablemente estaba fuertemente influenciada por los motivos mencionados en mi carta, y de los cuales haces mofa con tanta gracia. Te pondré un ejemplo obvio: noto que el traductor, un descendiente de nobles, traduce "nopiltzin", como "mi hijo", al referirse a Quetzalcóuatl, cuando los "demonios" van a engañarlo, y no lo traduce como "nuestro príncipe", como debería ser más propio al dirigirse a un rey de la altura del Gemelo Precioso. Por supuesto, que nopiltzin podría traducirse como mi hijo, pero no en este caso, digo, soy un poco lerda y puedo equivocarme. ¿Acaso en la antiguedad, cuando se presentaba un extraño ante un rey, le llamaba "mi hijito"? Si es así, por favor cita fuentes. Texto citado: "Quilhui nopiltzin tlamacazqui ca nimomacehual ompanihuitzin nonohualcatepetl itzintlan maxicmottili in monacayotzin, niman cenmacac in Tetzcatl quilhui maxi miximati maxi mottanopiltzin ø ca ompa tonneciz in tetzcatl." Primo Feliciano traduce: "Aquél respondió: “Hijo mío, sacerdote, yo soy tu vasallo; vengo de la falda de Nonohualcatépetl; mira señor, tu cuerpo. Luego le dio el espejo y le dijo: “Mirate y conócete, hijo mio; que has de aparecer en el espejo.” Lisita Curiel PS (Lo del diminutivo es etno-egocentrismo eh?) >From: Carlos Santamarina Novillo >To: Elisabeth Curiel , nahuatl-l at mrs.umn.edu >Subject: Re: la nobleza azteca >Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:31:21 +0100 > > >Elisabeth Curiel ha escrito: > > > Desafortunadamente, la Inquisición, la evolución cultural natural de los > > tiempos, el desconocimiento de los antiguos secretos sagrados del > > sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e impresionar a los buenos reyes >españoles, > > y muchos otros factores más, distorsionaron la información que nos >dejaron > > los historiadores precortesianos, y ahora nos obligan (como las >cocineras > > que sacan los negritos del arroz) a buscar cuidadosamente las verdades >entre > > todos aquellos escritos y fuentes de los que podemos valernos para >adquirir > > conocimiento sobre la civilización, la religión y la lengua de los >antiguos. > >Analicemos-interpretemos el texto. > >Hay un protagonista central: "la información que nos dejaron los >historiadores precortesianos" >que sufre la acción de un verbo: "fue distorsionada"; >y una serie de factores causantes de la negativa acción de ese verbo: >"la >Inquisición, la evolución natural de los tiempos, el desconocimiento de los >antiguos secretos sagrados del sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e >impresionar a >los buenos reyes españoles, etc." > Lo anterior nos obliga -a los historiadores modernos- a tratar de >desandar >aquel proceso para recuperar "las verdades". No cabe duda, entonces de la >identificación que la autora lleva a cabo entre aquel protagonista central >y >este último objetivo actual, es decir, entre "la información que nos >dejaron los >historiadores precortesianos" y "las verdades". > > Subyace una interpretación maniquea y simplista -desgraciadamente >todavía muy >extendida en México- que identifica verdad, legitimidad, justicia con los >aquí >llamados "precortesianos", mientras a los españoles corresponden las >"virtudes" >opuestas. Se diría que fueron los españoles los que introdujeron en >Mesoamérica >la mentira y las versiones historiográficas asociadas al poder. Manida, >simplista, maniquea y aburrida visión de la historia humana. > Las fuentes indígenas, como cualquier otra, han de ser sometidas a >crítica >para aprender a reconocer las versiones interesadas que de su propia >historia >dieron las élites indígenas. Cualquiera que esté introducido en el tema >conoce >el etnocentrismo característico de la historiografía indígena, y los Anales >de >Cuauhtitlan son un ejemplo destacado. Además, siendo la azteca una sociedad >estratificada, con clases o estamentos diferenciados, no sorprende que la >historia estuviera al servicio del poder, que Itzcóatl mandara quemar los >viejos >"papeles pintados" y reescribir la historia a la mayor gloria de los nuevos >señores. Sólo citar las fuentes derivadas de la llamada "Crónica X" o la >obra de >Fdo. de Alva Ixtlilxóchitl es ya referirse a parcialidad interesada, >etnocentrismo y tendenciosidad. > Todo lo anterior sólo viene a concluir que la lucha del historiador >moderno >en búsqueda de la verdad ha de tener en cuenta todos los "estratos de >tergiversación" y subjetividad que las fuentes han venido atravesando desde >su >misma gestación. Y eso no se detiene en 1521, sino que afecta a todos los >periodos de la historia humana. > >Gracias y a seguir bien. > >< Carlos Santamarina Novillo --- carlossn at diploma.com > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos es la manera más sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus fotos: http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx From liccuriel at hotmail.com Tue Jan 22 17:15:58 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:15:58 +0000 Subject: nobleza azteca Message-ID: De Lisita: Para: La Voz de Aztlán (qué raro nombre para una persona) Tienes razón. Prometo que de hoy en adelante me portaré bien. Hasta la vista. >From: La Voz de Aztlan >To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu >CC: liccuriel at hotmail.com, carlossn at diploma.com >Subject: Re[2]: nobleza azteca >Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:12:39 -0800 > >This is nothing but pure "bombastic verbosity" in Spanish!!! >Too many Mexicans are proned to this sort of "bullshit" that >uses too many high sounding verbs and nouns that say nothing. >Enough! Ya Basta! > >La Voz de Aztlan >http://www.aztlan.net > >On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:23:23 +0000 >"Elisabeth Curiel" wrote: > >Carlos Santamaría: > >Entre toda tu baraúnta de disertaciones pretenciosas con que me >apabullaste, >no entendi qué quisiste decir exactamente. ¿Etnocentrismo? No, no no. Los >tiempos evolucionan. Te pondré un ejemplo: En tiempos de mi trisabuela >(hace >más de 80 años), decirle "macho" a un hombre, era el mayor halago que se le >podría decir. Si yo le digo eso a un hombre hoy, me fulmina con la mirada. >Y >por supuesto que lo que hicieron los colonizadores del Nuevo Mundo fue muy >influenciante, pero ¡qué se le hace compadre! Los reyes españoles se >cansaron de redactar cédular, nombrar visitadores, etc., para vigilar que >sus vasallos obedecieran sus ordenanzas y que no terminaran con los >naturales del pais como hicieron con los de la Española; y nada que los >ambiciosos colonizadores continuaron haciendo esclavos, robándoles sus >"sementeras", herrándoles las mejillas como a animales, creando >encomiendas, >y muchas lindezas más. ¿Etnocentrismo? ni siquiera tienes idea de lo que >dices. > >Y respecto a los Anales de Cuauhtitlan, que fueron rescatadas por don >Fernando de Alba, mi comentario fue sobre la inexactitud de la traducción >que hizo Primo Feliciano Velazquez, un nahuatlato, quien indudablemente >estaba fuertemente influenciada por los motivos mencionados en mi carta, y >de los cuales haces mofa con tanta gracia. > >Te pondré un ejemplo obvio: noto que el traductor, un descendiente de >nobles, traduce "nopiltzin", como "mi hijo", al referirse a Quetzalcóuatl, >cuando los "demonios" van a engañarlo, y no lo traduce como "nuestro >príncipe", como debería ser más propio al dirigirse a un rey de la altura >del Gemelo Precioso. Por supuesto, que nopiltzin podría traducirse como mi >hijo, pero no en este caso, digo, soy un poco lerda y puedo equivocarme. > >¿Acaso en la antiguedad, cuando se presentaba un extraño ante un rey, le >llamaba "mi hijito"? Si es así, por favor cita fuentes. > >Texto citado: "Quilhui nopiltzin tlamacazqui ca nimomacehual ompanihuitzin >nonohualcatepetl itzintlan maxicmottili in monacayotzin, niman cenmacac in >Tetzcatl quilhui maxi miximati maxi mottanopiltzin ø ca ompa tonneciz in >tetzcatl." > >Primo Feliciano traduce: "Aquél respondió: “Hijo mío, sacerdote, yo >soy tu vasallo; vengo de la falda de Nonohualcatépetl; mira señor, tu >cuerpo. Luego le dio el espejo y le dijo: “Mirate y conócete, hijo >mio; que has de aparecer en el espejo.” > >Lisita Curiel > >PS (Lo del diminutivo es etno-egocentrismo eh?) > > > > >From: Carlos Santamarina Novillo > >To: Elisabeth Curiel , nahuatl-l at mrs.umn.edu > >Subject: Re: la nobleza azteca > >Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:31:21 +0100 > > > > > >Elisabeth Curiel ha escrito: > > > > > Desafortunadamente, la Inquisición, la evolución cultural natural de >los > > > tiempos, el desconocimiento de los antiguos secretos sagrados del > > > sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e impresionar a los buenos reyes > >españoles, > > > y muchos otros factores más, distorsionaron la información que nos > >dejaron > > > los historiadores precortesianos, y ahora nos obligan (como las > >cocineras > > > que sacan los negritos del arroz) a buscar cuidadosamente las verdades > >entre > > > todos aquellos escritos y fuentes de los que podemos valernos para > >adquirir > > > conocimiento sobre la civilización, la religión y la lengua de los > >antiguos. > > > >Analicemos-interpretemos el texto. > > > >Hay un protagonista central: "la información que nos dejaron los > >historiadores precortesianos" > >que sufre la acción de un verbo: "fue distorsionada"; > >y una serie de factores causantes de la negativa acción de ese verbo: > >"la > >Inquisición, la evolución natural de los tiempos, el desconocimiento de >los > >antiguos secretos sagrados del sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e > >impresionar a > >los buenos reyes españoles, etc." > > Lo anterior nos obliga -a los historiadores modernos- a tratar de > >desandar > >aquel proceso para recuperar "las verdades". No cabe duda, entonces de la > >identificación que la autora lleva a cabo entre aquel protagonista >central > >y > >este último objetivo actual, es decir, entre "la información que nos > >dejaron los > >historiadores precortesianos" y "las verdades". > > > > Subyace una interpretación maniquea y simplista -desgraciadamente > >todavía muy > >extendida en México- que identifica verdad, legitimidad, justicia con los > >aquí > >llamados "precortesianos", mientras a los españoles corresponden las > >"virtudes" > >opuestas. Se diría que fueron los españoles los que introdujeron en > >Mesoamérica > >la mentira y las versiones historiográficas asociadas al poder. Manida, > >simplista, maniquea y aburrida visión de la historia humana. > > Las fuentes indígenas, como cualquier otra, han de ser sometidas a > >crítica > >para aprender a reconocer las versiones interesadas que de su propia > >historia > >dieron las élites indígenas. Cualquiera que esté introducido en el tema > >conoce > >el etnocentrismo característico de la historiografía indígena, y los >Anales > >de > >Cuauhtitlan son un ejemplo destacado. Además, siendo la azteca una >sociedad > >estratificada, con clases o estamentos diferenciados, no sorprende que la > >historia estuviera al servicio del poder, que Itzcóatl mandara quemar los > >viejos > >"papeles pintados" y reescribir la historia a la mayor gloria de los >nuevos > >señores. Sólo citar las fuentes derivadas de la llamada "Crónica X" o la > >obra de > >Fdo. de Alva Ixtlilxóchitl es ya referirse a parcialidad interesada, > >etnocentrismo y tendenciosidad. > > Todo lo anterior sólo viene a concluir que la lucha del historiador > >moderno > >en búsqueda de la verdad ha de tener en cuenta todos los "estratos de > >tergiversación" y subjetividad que las fuentes han venido atravesando >desde > >su > >misma gestación. Y eso no se detiene en 1521, sino que afecta a todos los > >periodos de la historia humana. > > > >Gracias y a seguir bien. > > > >< Carlos Santamarina Novillo --- carlossn at diploma.com > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN Photos es la manera más sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus fotos: >http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx > > _________________________________________________________________ Descargue GRATUITAMENTE MSN Explorer en http://explorer.yupimsn.com/intl.asp. From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Jan 22 17:51:53 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:51:53 -0600 Subject: nobleza azteca In-Reply-To: <3C4D9D871C2.1641LAVOZ@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 09:12 AM 1/22/02 -0800, you wrote: >This is nothing but pure "bombastic verbosity" in Spanish!!! As list owner, allow me to interject a bit of calm. The debate has gone beyond the parameters of scholarly discussion and resulted in attacks aimed at specific persons. If you feel that you have something to contribute to the better understanding of an issue, please go forward. If you wish to attack or criticize a person, this is best done off-line, that is by a message sent directly to the other person and not to the whole list. Please exercise caution in hitting the "Reply" button. J. F. Schwaller John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From edwin at humanityquest.com Tue Jan 22 18:50:54 2002 From: edwin at humanityquest.com (Edwin Rutsch) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:50:54 -0800 Subject: what is Inspiration in Nahuatl Message-ID: Greetings I had posted a call earlier for an article about the Nahuatl word for inspiration. See http://humanityquest.com/Themes/Inspiration/ArticleGuidelines/ No takers yet.. I would like to start a discussion about the Nahuatl word for inspiration. It was suggested that yolchicahua and yollotia refer to inspiration in Nahuatl , see below.. Any comments? edwin ============================ Edwin, I wanted to know whether you refer to inhalation/breathing or the abstract sense- I know that Nahuatl incorporates the word for breath in a variety of senses- the verb meaning "to endure suffering or work hard to subsist/acquire something" is ihiyohuia, literally "to apply one's breath [to something]"(see Karttunen's dictionary 1983). I believe that the word for breath itself can extend to references to ephemeral life energy evidenced by breath. If it was used to refer to expenditure as hardship, semantically there should be a sense in which it is used in an opposite way. But it is the word related to "heart", yolli that becomes a modifier to refer to being incited, excited or inspired to act. yolchicahua combines yol- with the verb chicahua meaning "to animate or strengthen." This results in the meaning "to incite one or oneself to bravery," which seems pretty close to inspire. In the story of St.Francis in Nahuatl, God inspires Francis using the transitive verb yollotia. Good luck, then, with your project. JOANNA M SANCHEZ ============================ I was meaning the abstract sense of inspiration,- heightened sense of enthusiasm and energy, and sometimes creativity. The focus is not on the actual physical sense of drawing in air, which however does act as a metaphor for the abstract/spiritual sense. Interesting about ihiyohuia. It has a similarity to Aspire, (rough or audible breathing). I think the idea behind this is if your striving for a goal, like in a running race, you would have rough or audible breathing. The Latin root word spirare forms the base of other English words, such as; aspire (rough or audible breathing), conspire (breathe together), expire (breathe out), perspire (breathe through), transpire (breathe across) and spirit (breath of life). Yollotia sounds like it would then be Divine inspiration. edwin ============================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eherrera at metadata.com.mx Tue Jan 22 18:58:35 2002 From: eherrera at metadata.com.mx (Ernesto Herrera L.) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:58:35 -0600 Subject: this list, professionalism and human emotions In-Reply-To: <004301c1a365$05da46e0$55bee994@dcwright> Message-ID: Estimados colegas, Carlos and Elizabeth: The fact that, undoubtedly, both of your arguments deserve careful and unbiased consideration (if we are ever to move forward in the resolution of such debate) notwithstanding, it seems to me that they may fall somewhat outside the main purpose of this list, which is, AFAIK, to share knowledge about the nahuatl language and culture. Please do not misinterpret me, as a mexican citizen (using English as an international language, not because of an anglocentric point of view) who lives in Mexico City, I am deeply interested in, and affected by, the topic you bring out. I can hardly walk 100 mts. in any direction from where I am currently typing this message, before I encounter one of the many millions of people of indian ethnias who live a miserably life, in all cases devoid of honor, ilusions, hope, opportunities, adequate education, and personal satisfaction, ...and frequently of food, medical attention, and adequate shelter and clothing. If you kindly allow me, I will go against my own advise (back in the first paragraph) and present some comments on the topic, in order to clarify why it may be that it brings such an emotional reaction in otherwise objective and professional individuals as both Carlos (an Spaniard) and Elizabeth (a Mexican) undoubtely are. There is a point in the arguments that it is time for mexicans to face the fact that *most* of us are, at least, half Spanish and we should learn to appreciate that if we are ever to raise our self-steem. It *is* a fact that the Spanish culture has contributed valuable things to the world, and there are more than a few reasons to be proud of such a heritage. Nevertheless, it is also well past the time that we, and the Spaniards, and the rest of the concerned world (both popular and academic) unbiasedly recognize the facts of the conquest as they actually were and not, as has been overwhelmingly the case, in a "simplistic" and, by now, "boring" manner of doing human history. And this implies the recognition that, among many other things, Cortés did *not* "beat" the aztecs (I'm using this controversial term so as not to refer exclusively to the mexicah, be them tenochcah or tlaltelolcah, or any other concrete anahuac altepetl) by "cunning" strategy and "glorious" display of courage with the help of "only" 500 or so men. Instead, he accomplished this by: 1) a series of cowardly massacres *deliberately* planned and inflicted on unarmed and unexpecting human beings(at Cholollan's and Tenochtitlan's Plazas Mayores); the killing at Tenochtitlan, particularly, had the effect of substantialy and significanlty reducing the military leadership of the mexicah. 2) by commiting the despeakable act of sequestering the top rulers of the land where he had landed, who until that moment had had nothing but attentions and presents for him and his "King"; having their absolute ruler being imprisonned in his own house by his own guests, effectively disabled the mexicah organization. It was not until Motecuhzoma was killed, by the Spaniards themselves upon realizing that he no longer was useful since the folk would no longer obey his orders to refrain from attacking the Spanish-Tlaxcallan coalition, but his death could be useful since it would involve long and elaborated funerary rites that could keep their now enemies busy while they fled the city) that the remaining mexicah, unhindered by the moral restriction of directly causing the death of his beloved rulers, was finally able to assemble some resistance. 3) by eventually (machiavellicaly, but very effectively it must be admitted) enlisting the help of practically every other nahuatl altepetl in his war against the mexicah; it must not be forgotten that, in the end, the mexicah people were fighting agains their very, very close relatives (cousins, in-laws, even half siblings) when they fought against the people of the former acolhua and tepaneca empires. 4) contrary to what is the traditional, unexamined, simplistic general opinion, it was the *mexicah* who were grossly *outnumbered* in the vast majority of their battles against the Spanish-Tlaxcallan (and later Spanish-Tlaxcallan-Huexotzinca-Chalca-Acolhua-Tepaneca) coalition. 4) and, most important of all, by a dramatically effective (if absolutely unintended) *biological* warfare that eventually killed millions of people, but that at the moment of the siege of Tenochtitlan and Tlaltelolco had the immediate effect of eliminating any effective resistance, such as the one attempted, valiantly and effectively while it lasted, by Cuitlahuac. By the time Cuauhtemoc gained command, there was no longer a chance of successfully defending the island cities with the possible exception of enlisting the help of their old adversaries, the Purépecha. Unfortunately, the Purépecha ruler died at that moment, probably killed also by the diseases brought by the Spaniards (Cortés, if anything, was a very lucky guy, for he was blessed with favor even from the hands of his enemies, as evidence points out that the diseases that so effectively helped him were brought by some people in the Narvaez party), and was succeeded by his feeble-minded son who refused to help Cuauhtemoc and, ultimately, suffered the same fate as him, only that he was tied to a running horse to be dismembered instead of being dishonorably hanged from a tree deep in the Chiapanecan jungle). Furthermore, human sacrifices (whether or not they were made, and whatever quantities of people were involved in case that they actually happened in the manner related by the conquerors and early chroniclers) taken aside, the fact is that there was in effect a magnificent civilization with hundreds of cities and elaborate social institutions in this very same valley before the Spaniards (we?) came and now it is gone. Think about the loss for the world if the same thing had happened to another distinctive non-western culture, say, Japan. Well, it seems to me, that the loss of the Aztec civilization is arguably comparable. There were, literally, millions of people living in the valley of Mexico in 1520; the Spanish-speaking Mexico City, although today again among the most populated urban areas in the world, was not to have that same number of inhabitants for the next 400 years... and it is worth to keep in mind that it had taken the mexicah only 200 years to create their Tenochtitlan and Tlaltelolco. Today, I look out at the window, the lake gone, the sky no longer blue, and most of what I see is an unplanned, mostly dirty city, with ugly buildings, spread like a rash alongside the otrora beautiful hills. Clearly, for me at least, a view that blames the Spaniards for every bad cultural trait that may be generalized over the current mexican population, is not only simplistic but puerile. However, taken from an unbiased, objective, statistical point of view, the observation that very much the same cultural and character traits are shared by all the countries conquered by the Spaniards, inevitably leads one to consider the fact that an explanation involving those cultural traits as being present in the original invaders is likely to be in more accordance with Occam's Razor principle than one involving the independent evolution of such traits in a multitude of lands with vastly different underlying social and genetical substrates. Please note that I am not making any moral judgement on the traits themselves. Also not to be forgotten is that even though the Arabs remained in Spain for *700* years, and undoubtedly brought high culture and refinement to that land, the original Spaniars, certainly now mixed (linguistically and genetically) with their former conquerors, won it back. As I said before, my intention here has not been to enter into an argument that will, in all probability, not take anybody anywhere, and which certainly does not belong in this list; but to respectfully attempt to convey, to whoever this may be of concern or interest, why the resolution of the internal conflict that pervades our heritage is far from easy for us mexicans. And I, like Elizabeth probably, and like the rest of the 100 million or so human beings that populate this land now called Estados Unidos Mexicanos cannot run away from this conflict anymore. It is in further understanding that we may find a truly human solution to this problem. Such is the value of this list. Thank you for your patience reading this quite long posting. Ernesto Herrera Legorreta Director of Business Intelligence Metadata SA Mexico DF -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu]En nombre de Elisabeth Curiel Enviado el: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 10:23 Para: carlossn at diploma.com CC: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu Asunto: Re: nobleza azteca Carlos Santamaría: Entre toda tu baraúnta de disertaciones pretenciosas con que me apabullaste, no entendi qué quisiste decir exactamente. ¿Etnocentrismo? No, no no. Los tiempos evolucionan. Te pondré un ejemplo: En tiempos de mi trisabuela (hace más de 80 años), decirle "macho" a un hombre, era el mayor halago que se le podría decir. Si yo le digo eso a un hombre hoy, me fulmina con la mirada. Y por supuesto que lo que hicieron los colonizadores del Nuevo Mundo fue muy influenciante, pero ¡qué se le hace compadre! Los reyes españoles se cansaron de redactar cédular, nombrar visitadores, etc., para vigilar que sus vasallos obedecieran sus ordenanzas y que no terminaran con los naturales del pais como hicieron con los de la Española; y nada que los ambiciosos colonizadores continuaron haciendo esclavos, robándoles sus "sementeras", herrándoles las mejillas como a animales, creando encomiendas, y muchas lindezas más. ¿Etnocentrismo? ni siquiera tienes idea de lo que dices. Y respecto a los Anales de Cuauhtitlan, que fueron rescatadas por don Fernando de Alba, mi comentario fue sobre la inexactitud de la traducción que hizo Primo Feliciano Velazquez, un nahuatlato, quien indudablemente estaba fuertemente influenciada por los motivos mencionados en mi carta, y de los cuales haces mofa con tanta gracia. Te pondré un ejemplo obvio: noto que el traductor, un descendiente de nobles, traduce "nopiltzin", como "mi hijo", al referirse a Quetzalcóuatl, cuando los "demonios" van a engañarlo, y no lo traduce como "nuestro príncipe", como debería ser más propio al dirigirse a un rey de la altura del Gemelo Precioso. Por supuesto, que nopiltzin podría traducirse como mi hijo, pero no en este caso, digo, soy un poco lerda y puedo equivocarme. ¿Acaso en la antiguedad, cuando se presentaba un extraño ante un rey, le llamaba "mi hijito"? Si es así, por favor cita fuentes. Texto citado: "Quilhui nopiltzin tlamacazqui ca nimomacehual ompanihuitzin nonohualcatepetl itzintlan maxicmottili in monacayotzin, niman cenmacac in Tetzcatl quilhui maxi miximati maxi mottanopiltzin ø ca ompa tonneciz in tetzcatl." Primo Feliciano traduce: "Aquél respondió: “Hijo mío, sacerdote, yo soy tu vasallo; vengo de la falda de Nonohualcatépetl; mira señor, tu cuerpo. Luego le dio el espejo y le dijo: “Mirate y conócete, hijo mio; que has de aparecer en el espejo.” Lisita Curiel PS (Lo del diminutivo es etno-egocentrismo eh?) >From: Carlos Santamarina Novillo >To: Elisabeth Curiel , nahuatl-l at mrs.umn.edu >Subject: Re: la nobleza azteca >Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:31:21 +0100 > > >Elisabeth Curiel ha escrito: > > > Desafortunadamente, la Inquisición, la evolución cultural natural de los > > tiempos, el desconocimiento de los antiguos secretos sagrados del > > sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e impresionar a los buenos reyes >españoles, > > y muchos otros factores más, distorsionaron la información que nos >dejaron > > los historiadores precortesianos, y ahora nos obligan (como las >cocineras > > que sacan los negritos del arroz) a buscar cuidadosamente las verdades >entre > > todos aquellos escritos y fuentes de los que podemos valernos para >adquirir > > conocimiento sobre la civilización, la religión y la lengua de los >antiguos. > >Analicemos-interpretemos el texto. > >Hay un protagonista central: "la información que nos dejaron los >historiadores precortesianos" >que sufre la acción de un verbo: "fue distorsionada"; >y una serie de factores causantes de la negativa acción de ese verbo: >"la >Inquisición, la evolución natural de los tiempos, el desconocimiento de los >antiguos secretos sagrados del sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e >impresionar a >los buenos reyes españoles, etc." > Lo anterior nos obliga -a los historiadores modernos- a tratar de >desandar >aquel proceso para recuperar "las verdades". No cabe duda, entonces de la >identificación que la autora lleva a cabo entre aquel protagonista central >y >este último objetivo actual, es decir, entre "la información que nos >dejaron los >historiadores precortesianos" y "las verdades". > > Subyace una interpretación maniquea y simplista -desgraciadamente >todavía muy >extendida en México- que identifica verdad, legitimidad, justicia con los >aquí >llamados "precortesianos", mientras a los españoles corresponden las >"virtudes" >opuestas. Se diría que fueron los españoles los que introdujeron en >Mesoamérica >la mentira y las versiones historiográficas asociadas al poder. Manida, >simplista, maniquea y aburrida visión de la historia humana. > Las fuentes indígenas, como cualquier otra, han de ser sometidas a >crítica >para aprender a reconocer las versiones interesadas que de su propia >historia >dieron las élites indígenas. Cualquiera que esté introducido en el tema >conoce >el etnocentrismo característico de la historiografía indígena, y los Anales >de >Cuauhtitlan son un ejemplo destacado. Además, siendo la azteca una sociedad >estratificada, con clases o estamentos diferenciados, no sorprende que la >historia estuviera al servicio del poder, que Itzcóatl mandara quemar los >viejos >"papeles pintados" y reescribir la historia a la mayor gloria de los nuevos >señores. Sólo citar las fuentes derivadas de la llamada "Crónica X" o la >obra de >Fdo. de Alva Ixtlilxóchitl es ya referirse a parcialidad interesada, >etnocentrismo y tendenciosidad. > Todo lo anterior sólo viene a concluir que la lucha del historiador >moderno >en búsqueda de la verdad ha de tener en cuenta todos los "estratos de >tergiversación" y subjetividad que las fuentes han venido atravesando desde >su >misma gestación. Y eso no se detiene en 1521, sino que afecta a todos los >periodos de la historia humana. > >Gracias y a seguir bien. > >< Carlos Santamarina Novillo --- carlossn at diploma.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From edwin at humanityquest.com Tue Jan 22 19:43:06 2002 From: edwin at humanityquest.com (Edwin Rutsch) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:43:06 -0800 Subject: what is Inspiration in Nahuatl Message-ID: I also received this about inspiration in Nahuatl. " hi!, my name is cris, from Mexico. I what I can tell you now, about what you need, there is a book called "Pensamiento musical" (musical thinking-?-) author: Carlos Chavez. He speak about the musical inspiration and the creativity in that musicians. the difference between inspirations and capacity creative. This book originally was a conference given in New York, it became a book some years later. I will try to get you some native references about the theme. try to get the book "Trece poetas del mundo nuhatl" (thirteen poets in the nahuatl world) author Miguel León-Portilla. I don't know if you can get it in English, but try to get it. Is all for now, good luck " edwin Inspiration Project http://humanityquest.com/Themes/Inspiration/ArticleGuidelines/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eherrera at metadata.com.mx Tue Jan 22 19:51:14 2002 From: eherrera at metadata.com.mx (Ernesto Herrera L.) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:51:14 -0600 Subject: the purpose of this list In-Reply-To: <002CEEC2CC59F547BC72B15C1234486405C29D@leo.humanityquest.com> Message-ID: (I apologize for the inconvenience if by mistake I have sent this posting twice) Estimados colegas, Carlos and Elizabeth: The fact that, undoubtedly, both of your arguments deserve careful and unbiased consideration (if we are ever to move forward in the resolution of such debate) notwithstanding, it seems to me that they may fall somewhat outside the main purpose of this list, which is, AFAIK, to share knowledge about the nahuatl language and culture. Please do not misinterpret me, as a mexican citizen (using English as an international language, not because of an anglocentric point of view) who lives in Mexico City, I am deeply interested in, and affected by, the topic you bring out. I can hardly walk 100 mts. in any direction from where I am currently typing this message, before I encounter one of the many millions of people of indian ethnias who live a miserably life, in all cases devoid of honor, ilusions, hope, opportunities, adequate education, and personal satisfaction, ...and frequently of food, medical attention, and adequate shelter and clothing. If you kindly allow me, I will go against my own advise (back in the first paragraph) and present some comments on the topic, in order to clarify why it may be that it brings such an emotional reaction in otherwise objective and professional individuals as both Carlos (an Spaniard) and Elizabeth (a Mexican) undoubtely are. There is a point in the arguments that it is time for mexicans to face the fact that *most* of us are, at least, half Spanish and we should learn to appreciate that if we are ever to raise our self-steem. It *is* a fact that the Spanish culture has contributed valuable things to the world, and there are more than a few reasons to be proud of such a heritage. Nevertheless, it is also well past the time that we, and the Spaniards, and the rest of the concerned world (both popular and academic) unbiasedly recognize the facts of the conquest as they actually were and not, as has been overwhelmingly the case, in a "simplistic" and, by now, "boring" manner of doing human history. And this implies the recognition that, among many other things, Cortes did *not* "beat" the aztecs (I'm using this controversial term so as not to refer exclusively to the mexicah, be them tenochcah or tlaltelolcah, or any other concrete anahuac altepetl) by "cunning" strategy and "glorious" display of courage with the help of "only" 500 or so men. Instead, he accomplished this by: 1) a series of cowardly massacres *deliberately* planned and inflicted on unarmed and unexpecting human beings(at Cholollan's and Tenochtitlan's Plazas Mayores); the killing at Tenochtitlan, particularly, had the effect of substantialy and significanlty reducing the military leadership of the mexicah. 2) by commiting the despeakable act of sequestering the top rulers of the land where he had landed, who until that moment had had nothing but attentions and presents for him and his "King"; having their absolute ruler being imprisonned in his own house by his own guests, effectively disabled the mexicah organization. It was not until Motecuhzoma was killed, by the Spaniards themselves upon realizing that he no longer was useful since the folk would no longer obey his orders to refrain from attacking the Spanish-Tlaxcallan coalition, but his death could be useful since it would involve long and elaborated funerary rites that could keep their now enemies busy while they fled the city) that the remaining mexicah, unhindered by the moral restriction of directly causing the death of his beloved rulers, was finally able to assemble some resistance. 3) by eventually (machiavellicaly, but very effectively it must be admitted) enlisting the help of practically every other nahuatl altepetl in his war against the mexicah; it must not be forgotten that, in the end, the mexicah people were fighting agains their very, very close relatives (cousins, in-laws, even half siblings) when they fought against the people of the former acolhua and tepaneca empires. 4) contrary to what is the traditional, unexamined, simplistic general opinion, it was the *mexicah* who were grossly *outnumbered* in the vast majority of their battles against the Spanish-Tlaxcallan (and later Spanish-Tlaxcallan-Huexotzinca-Chalca-Acolhua-Tepaneca) coalition. 4) and, most important of all, by a dramatically effective (if absolutely unintended) *biological* warfare that eventually killed millions of people, but that at the moment of the siege of Tenochtitlan and Tlaltelolco had the immediate effect of eliminating any effective resistance, such as the one attempted, valiantly and effectively while it lasted, by Cuitlahuac. By the time Cuauhtemoc gained command, there was no longer a chance of successfully defending the island cities with the possible exception of enlisting the help of their old adversaries, the Purepecha. Unfortunately, the Purepecha ruler died at that moment, probably killed also by the diseases brought by the Spaniards (Cortes, if anything, was a very lucky guy, for he was blessed with favor even from the hands of his enemies, as evidence points out that the diseases that so effectively helped him were brought by some people in the Narvaez party), and was succeeded by his feeble-minded son who refused to help Cuauhtemoc and, ultimately, suffered the same fate as him, only that he was tied to a running horse to be dismembered instead of being dishonorably hanged from a tree deep in the Chiapanecan jungle). Furthermore, human sacrifices (whether or not they were made, and whatever quantities of people were involved in case that they actually happened in the manner related by the conquerors and early chroniclers) taken aside, the fact is that there was in effect a magnificent civilization with hundreds of cities and elaborate social institutions in this very same valley before the Spaniards (we?) came and now it is gone. Think about the loss for the world if the same thing had happened to another distinctive non-western culture, say, Japan. Well, it seems to me, that the loss of the Aztec civilization is arguably comparable. There were, literally, millions of people living in the valley of Mexico in 1520; the Spanish-speaking Mexico City, although today again among the most populated urban areas in the world, was not to have that same number of inhabitants for the next 400 years... and it is worth to keep in mind that it had taken the mexicah only 200 years to create their Tenochtitlan and Tlaltelolco. Today, I look out at the window, the lake gone, the sky no longer blue, and most of what I see is an unplanned, mostly dirty city, with ugly buildings, spread like a rash alongside the otrora beautiful hills. Clearly, for me at least, a view that blames the Spaniards for every bad cultural trait that may be generalized over the current mexican population, is not only simplistic but puerile. However, taken from an unbiased, objective, statistical point of view, the observation that very much the same cultural and character traits are shared by all the countries conquered by the Spaniards, inevitably leads one to consider the fact that an explanation involving those cultural traits as being present in the original invaders is likely to be in more accordance with Occam's Razor principle than one involving the independent evolution of such traits in a multitude of lands with vastly different underlying social and genetical substrates. Please note that I am not making any moral judgement on the traits themselves. Also not to be forgotten is that even though the Arabs remained in Spain for *700* years, and undoubtedly brought high culture and refinement to that land, the original Spaniars, certainly now mixed (linguistically and genetically) with their former conquerors, won it back. As I said before, my intention here has not been to enter into an argument that will, in all probability, not take anybody anywhere, and which certainly does not belong in this list; but to respectfully attempt to convey, to whoever this may be of concern or interest, why the resolution of the internal conflict that pervades our heritage is far from easy for us mexicans. And I, like Elizabeth probably, and like the rest of the 100 million or so human beings that populate this land now called Estados Unidos Mexicanos cannot run away from this conflict anymore. It is in further understanding that we may find a truly human solution to this problem. Such is the value of this list. Thank you for your patience reading this quite long posting. Ernesto Herrera Legorreta Director of Business Intelligence Metadata SA Mexico DF -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu]En nombre de Elisabeth Curiel Enviado el: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 10:23 Para: carlossn at diploma.com CC: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu Asunto: Re: nobleza azteca Carlos Santamaria: Entre toda tu baraunta de disertaciones pretenciosas con que me apabullaste, no entendi que quisiste decir exactamente. ?Etnocentrismo? No, no no. Los tiempos evolucionan. Te pondre un ejemplo: En tiempos de mi trisabuela (hace mas de 80 anos), decirle "macho" a un hombre, era el mayor halago que se le podria decir. Si yo le digo eso a un hombre hoy, me fulmina con la mirada. Y por supuesto que lo que hicieron los colonizadores del Nuevo Mundo fue muy influenciante, pero !que se le hace compadre! Los reyes espanoles se cansaron de redactar cedular, nombrar visitadores, etc., para vigilar que sus vasallos obedecieran sus ordenanzas y que no terminaran con los naturales del pais como hicieron con los de la Espanola; y nada que los ambiciosos colonizadores continuaron haciendo esclavos, robandoles sus "sementeras", herrandoles las mejillas como a animales, creando encomiendas, y muchas lindezas mas. ?Etnocentrismo? ni siquiera tienes idea de lo que dices. Y respecto a los Anales de Cuauhtitlan, que fueron rescatadas por don Fernando de Alba, mi comentario fue sobre la inexactitud de la traduccion que hizo Primo Feliciano Velazquez, un nahuatlato, quien indudablemente estaba fuertemente influenciada por los motivos mencionados en mi carta, y de los cuales haces mofa con tanta gracia. Te pondre un ejemplo obvio: noto que el traductor, un descendiente de nobles, traduce "nopiltzin", como "mi hijo", al referirse a Quetzalcouatl, cuando los "demonios" van a enganarlo, y no lo traduce como "nuestro principe", como deberia ser mas propio al dirigirse a un rey de la altura del Gemelo Precioso. Por supuesto, que nopiltzin podria traducirse como mi hijo, pero no en este caso, digo, soy un poco lerda y puedo equivocarme. ?Acaso en la antiguedad, cuando se presentaba un extrano ante un rey, le llamaba "mi hijito"? Si es asi, por favor cita fuentes. Texto citado: "Quilhui nopiltzin tlamacazqui ca nimomacehual ompanihuitzin nonohualcatepetl itzintlan maxicmottili in monacayotzin, niman cenmacac in Tetzcatl quilhui maxi miximati maxi mottanopiltzin o ca ompa tonneciz in tetzcatl." Primo Feliciano traduce: "Aquel respondio: “Hijo mio, sacerdote, yo soy tu vasallo; vengo de la falda de Nonohualcatepetl; mira senor, tu cuerpo. Luego le dio el espejo y le dijo: “Mirate y conocete, hijo mio; que has de aparecer en el espejo.” Lisita Curiel PS (Lo del diminutivo es etno-egocentrismo eh?) >From: Carlos Santamarina Novillo >To: Elisabeth Curiel , nahuatl-l at mrs.umn.edu >Subject: Re: la nobleza azteca >Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:31:21 +0100 > > >Elisabeth Curiel ha escrito: > > > Desafortunadamente, la Inquisicion, la evolucion cultural natural de los > > tiempos, el desconocimiento de los antiguos secretos sagrados del > > sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e impresionar a los buenos reyes >espanoles, > > y muchos otros factores mas, distorsionaron la informacion que nos >dejaron > > los historiadores precortesianos, y ahora nos obligan (como las >cocineras > > que sacan los negritos del arroz) a buscar cuidadosamente las verdades >entre > > todos aquellos escritos y fuentes de los que podemos valernos para >adquirir > > conocimiento sobre la civilizacion, la religion y la lengua de los >antiguos. > >Analicemos-interpretemos el texto. > >Hay un protagonista central: "la informacion que nos dejaron los >historiadores precortesianos" >que sufre la accion de un verbo: "fue distorsionada"; >y una serie de factores causantes de la negativa accion de ese verbo: >"la >Inquisicion, la evolucion natural de los tiempos, el desconocimiento de los >antiguos secretos sagrados del sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e >impresionar a >los buenos reyes espanoles, etc." > Lo anterior nos obliga -a los historiadores modernos- a tratar de >desandar >aquel proceso para recuperar "las verdades". No cabe duda, entonces de la >identificacion que la autora lleva a cabo entre aquel protagonista central >y >este ultimo objetivo actual, es decir, entre "la informacion que nos >dejaron los >historiadores precortesianos" y "las verdades". > > Subyace una interpretacion maniquea y simplista -desgraciadamente >todavia muy >extendida en Mexico- que identifica verdad, legitimidad, justicia con los >aqui >llamados "precortesianos", mientras a los espanoles corresponden las >"virtudes" >opuestas. Se diria que fueron los espanoles los que introdujeron en >Mesoamerica >la mentira y las versiones historiograficas asociadas al poder. Manida, >simplista, maniquea y aburrida vision de la historia humana. > Las fuentes indigenas, como cualquier otra, han de ser sometidas a >critica >para aprender a reconocer las versiones interesadas que de su propia >historia >dieron las elites indigenas. Cualquiera que este introducido en el tema >conoce >el etnocentrismo caracteristico de la historiografia indigena, y los Anales >de >Cuauhtitlan son un ejemplo destacado. Ademas, siendo la azteca una sociedad >estratificada, con clases o estamentos diferenciados, no sorprende que la >historia estuviera al servicio del poder, que Itzcoatl mandara quemar los >viejos >"papeles pintados" y reescribir la historia a la mayor gloria de los nuevos >senores. Solo citar las fuentes derivadas de la llamada "Cronica X" o la >obra de >Fdo. de Alva Ixtlilxochitl es ya referirse a parcialidad interesada, >etnocentrismo y tendenciosidad. > Todo lo anterior solo viene a concluir que la lucha del historiador >moderno >en busqueda de la verdad ha de tener en cuenta todos los "estratos de >tergiversacion" y subjetividad que las fuentes han venido atravesando desde >su >misma gestacion. Y eso no se detiene en 1521, sino que afecta a todos los >periodos de la historia humana. > >Gracias y a seguir bien. > >< Carlos Santamarina Novillo --- carlossn at diploma.com > > From ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu Wed Jan 30 15:54:23 2002 From: ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu (Kevin P Smith) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 07:54:23 -0800 Subject: nocone Message-ID: Dear Nahuatlatos, Can anyone suggest a translation for the term "nocone". It appears in an mid-16th-century document as a gender-specific (female) derogatory appelation. The specific reference describes an Indian noble angrily chastising his sister. Thanks in advance for any suggestions. Best, Kevin Paul Smith Graduate Student University of California Santa Barbara ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at Wed Jan 30 17:43:02 2002 From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:43:02 +0100 Subject: nocone Message-ID: I would suggest no+conetl = mi niña, mi muchacha etc ("conetl" refers to young boys/girls but is sometimes also applied to women in general - thus a good exaple for infantilizing strategies in gender categories). Best, Juergen Kevin P Smith schrieb: > Dear Nahuatlatos, > > Can anyone suggest a translation for the term "nocone". It appears in an > mid-16th-century document as a gender-specific (female) derogatory > appelation. The specific reference describes an Indian noble angrily > chastising his sister. > > Thanks in advance for any suggestions. > > Best, > > Kevin Paul Smith > Graduate Student > University of California Santa Barbara > ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu -- Juergen Stowasser Burggasse 114/2/8 A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a Austria tel: 01/ 524 54 60 v 0676/ 398 66 79 http://www.univie.ac.at/meso From cipactonal at starmedia.com Wed Jan 30 16:31:10 2002 From: cipactonal at starmedia.com (cipactonal at starmedia.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 11:31:10 EST Subject: nocone Message-ID: Estimado Dr. Smith: Nocone significa, literalmente, "hijo mio" y esta formado por: conetl, que significa "niño, muchacho" pero que al ser antecedido por un prefijo posesivo significa "hijo". En el caso que nos ocupa , la particula posesiva No, es para referise a "mi"; conetl "hijo". Nocone: Hijo mio. Conetl tambien sirve para determinar que algo, generalmente un nimal, es pequeño: mizconetl=gatito; canauhconetl=patito. Reciba un cordial saludo. Ignacio Silva. > > De: Kevin P Smith > Fecha: 30-Ene-2002 10:54 > Para: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu > Asunto: nocone > > Dear Nahuatlatos, > > Can anyone suggest a translation for the term "nocone". It appears in an > mid-16th-century document as a gender-specific (female) derogatory > appelation. The specific reference describes an Indian noble angrily > chastising his sister. > > Thanks in advance for any suggestions. > > Best, > > > Kevin Paul Smith > Graduate Student > University of California Santa Barbara > ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Obtén gratis tu cuenta de correo en StarMedia Email. ¡Regístrate hoy mismo!. http://www.starmedia.com/email ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jan 30 17:51:25 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:51:25 -0500 Subject: Hello In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Listeros, I would like to know how in the Nahuatl dialect you know a person greets another person. For that matter, I've never really seen a simple greeting in Classical aside from the 'dawn' form. Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu From bcoon at montana.edu Wed Jan 2 18:39:13 2002 From: bcoon at montana.edu (Coon, Brad) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:39:13 -0700 Subject: references to 'book'/'archive'/'library' in Flo.Codex? Message-ID: My current library does not have a copy of the Anderson and Dibble translation of the Florentine Codex. I am researching books and book collections/libraries/archives in Mexica and Mayan societies. If you are aware of which volumes contain any references to these items, I would appreciate the information as would my Interlibrary Loan staff! If you know of references in other sources, that infomation would be appreciated as well. I don't expect any of you to do the work for me, I just don't want to miss any of the either the obvious or the obscure sources. Thanks for your assistance, Brad Coon Reference Librarian The Libraries-Montana State University bcoon at montana.edu (406) 994-6026 From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at Thu Jan 3 04:15:20 2002 From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 05:15:20 +0100 Subject: references to 'book'/'archive'/'library' in Flo.Codex? Message-ID: Apart from Sahag?n (especially lib. X), I would consult fray Molina who lists various Nahuatl expressions for "librero", "libreria", "registro de libros" etc (although some terms might be already influenced by colonial usage). Some other works (e.g. Ixtlilxochitl) contain scattered but valuable references... Best Juergen "Coon, Brad" schrieb: > My current library does not have a copy of the Anderson and Dibble > translation of the Florentine Codex. > I am researching books and book collections/libraries/archives in Mexica and > Mayan societies. If you are aware of > which volumes contain any references to these items, I would appreciate the > information as would my > Interlibrary Loan staff! > > If you know of references in other sources, that infomation would be > appreciated as well. > > I don't expect any of you to do the work for me, I just don't want to miss > any of the either the obvious > or the obscure sources. > Thanks for your assistance, > > Brad Coon > Reference Librarian > The Libraries-Montana State University > bcoon at montana.edu (406) 994-6026 -- Juergen Stowasser Burggasse 114/2/8 A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a Austria tel: 01/ 524 54 60 v 0676/ 398 66 79 http://www.univie.ac.at/meso From jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx Tue Jan 8 16:59:59 2002 From: jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:59:59 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl studies in Zacatecas Message-ID: Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Summer Studies en Modern and Classical N?huatl July 1-August 2 (five weeks) I. Fours weeks of classroom study (Monday through Friday) A. Two hours per day of Modern Huastecan N?huatl conversation taught by native speaking teachers. B. Two hours per day in transcription and translation of unpublished nahua colonial manuscripts. II. One week visit to a Nahua community in the Huastecan region. Students will live with a nahua family for five days. Cost: One thousand dollars. This includes tuition and all course materials, as well as all the expenses related to the Huasteca trip (round-trip transportation between Zacatecas and the Huasteca, room and board). Not included are transportation between wherever you are coming from and Zacatecas, and room and board during the four week classroom period (although we will help you with these arangements). I will only admit 14 students for the session. Those interested may contact me at jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx The Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas is a non-profit organization I have set up which grants scholarships to Mexican indigenous students so that they may do their undergraduate or graduate studies in Zacatecas. The students dedicate 10-15 hours per week to the Institute teaching classes in their native language and/or participating in research projects. I will be setting up a web site soon which will describe the Institute in more detail, as well as the services it provides. John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor del Centro de Estudios Prospectivos de la Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas. Director del Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Av. Guerrero 227, int.12 Col. Centro Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Tel y fax (52-492) 922-1709 jsullivan at prodigy.net.mx From indus56 at telusplanet.net Tue Jan 15 00:48:39 2002 From: indus56 at telusplanet.net (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:48:39 -0700 Subject: Enemy of Both Sides Message-ID: Dear listmembers, I have run across many epithets for Tezcatlipoca. Broken-face. He-who-causes-things-to-be-seen-in-a-mirror. Drum-coyote. Enemy-of-Both-Sides. Would anyone on the list know the Nahuatl for this? Enemy of Both Sides, I mean. gratefully, Paul Anderson From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Jan 15 01:59:04 2002 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 20:59:04 -0500 Subject: Enemy of Both Sides In-Reply-To: <3C437C66.930A152F@telusplanet.net> Message-ID: Paul, Here are all (I think) the occurrences of "necoc [both] yaotl [enemy]" in the Florentine Codex. Book and page numbers are given in the Dibble and Anderson translation (the 'f.' number is irrelevant.) Joe necoc** 1. tetzalan, tenepantla motecaya: ipampa i, mitoaya *necoc* yaotl,. he brought discord among people, wherefore he was called "the enemy on both sides." (b.1 f.1 p.5). 2. ihuan quitocayotique, titlacahuan, ihuan yaotl, *necoc* yaotl, moyocoya, nezahualpilli.. and they [also] named him titlacauan, and yaotl, necoc yaotl, moyocoya, ne?aualpilli. (b.1 f.4 p.67). 3. in icuac nemia tlalticpac, yaoyotl quiyolitiaya, yehuatl quiyolitiaya in teuhtli, in tlazolli, cococ, teopouhqui tepan quichihuaya, tetzalan tenepantla, moquetzaya: ipampa i, motenehua *necoc* yaotl, teca. when he walked upon the earth he quickened war; he quickened vice, filth; he brought anguish, affliction to men; he brought discord among men, wherefore he was called "the enemy on both sides. (b.1 f.4 p.68). 4. auh in titlacahuan, no quitocayotiaya tezcatlipoca, moyocoyatzi, yaotzi, *necoc* yaotl, nezahualpilli:. and titlacauan they also named tezcatlipoca, moyocoyatzin, yaotzin, necoc yaotl, ne?aualpilli. (b.3 f.1 p.12). 5. intla oquichtli otlacat, ic quinotza miquiz, anozo yaotl, ceniaotl, *necoc* yaotl, chicoyaotl, yaomahuitl,. if a boy had been born, they therefore called forth [as his name] miquiz, or yaotl, cenyaotl, necoc yaotl, chicoyaotl, or yaomauitl. (b.4 f.4 p.34). 6. ic ei capitulo, oncan motenehua: in tlatolli in huel inyollocopa quitoaya, inic quitlatlauhtiaya tezcatlipoca: in quitocayotiaya yaotl *necoc* yaotl, monenequi: inic quitlaniliaya in tepalehuiliztli, in ihcuac yaoyotl mochihuaya.. third chapter. here are related the words which they uttered from their very hearts as they prayed to tezcatlipoca, whom they named yaotl, necoc yaotl, monenqui, to request aid when war was waged. (b.6 f.1 p.11). 7. *necoc* yaotl:. the traitor (b.10 f.2 p.38). 8. in *necoc* yaotl, ca chiquimoli,. the traitor is a gossip. (b.10 f.2 p.38). tinecoc** 9. auh inic *tinecoc* yaotzin, inic timoyocalatzin, inic timoquequeloa, inic ayac motempan: ma xicmotlahuantili, ma xicmihuintili, ma xicmoxocomictili in toyaouh,. "and as thou art necoc yaotl, as thou art moyocoyatzin, as thou art moquequeloa, so that none be at thy borders, intoxicate our foes; inebriate them, make them drunk." (b.6 f.2 p.14). On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Paul Anderson wrote: > Dear listmembers, > I have run across many epithets for Tezcatlipoca. > Broken-face. > He-who-causes-things-to-be-seen-in-a-mirror. > Drum-coyote. > Enemy-of-Both-Sides. > > Would anyone on the list know the Nahuatl for this? Enemy of Both Sides, > > I mean. > > gratefully, > Paul Anderson > > > From js9211 at csc.albany.edu Tue Jan 15 15:59:58 2002 From: js9211 at csc.albany.edu (SANCHEZ JOANNA M) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 10:59:58 -0500 Subject: Enemy of Both Sides In-Reply-To: <3C437C66.930A152F@telusplanet.net> Message-ID: I am glad that someone has brought up the subject of Tezcatlipoca's epithets, as I've been considering his self-identification in the Historia Tolteca Chichimeca: "Am I not two? Am I not three?" "mach nome mach ney." I'm not sure I am convinced by the Preuss and Mengin explanation that it refers to physical strength. I do believe that Kirchoff, et al are correct in positing that these are abbreviations for names (calendrical shorthand, perhaps?). Has this problem been reconsidered or solved? Thanks- Joanna > > From js9211 at csc.albany.edu Thu Jan 17 17:07:02 2002 From: js9211 at csc.albany.edu (SANCHEZ JOANNA M) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:07:02 -0500 Subject: Southern Origin of Uto Aztecan hypothesis Message-ID: Hill's paper in the Dec.2001 American Anthropologist suggests support for Bellwood's hypothesis that Uto-Aztecan may have originated in the Mesoamerican zone of maize agricultural innovation(s). Does anyone have an opinion about this? I'd be very interested, and imagine others would be, as well. Joanna From Huaxyacac at aol.com Fri Jan 18 00:06:36 2002 From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:06:36 EST Subject: Southern Origin of Uto Aztecan hypothesis Message-ID: Joanna, I'm not qualified to judge Hill's comparative reconstructions, but her argument certainly made sense to me. I have no problems with a Uto-Aztecan homeland somewhere along the arc from the Bajio west through Jalisco, probably towards the western end. I am still personally reluctant to accept that Nahuatl was spoken at Teotihuacan or elsewhere in the Basin of Mexico during the Classic period, although I need to look at a couple of the things Hill cites. Alec Christensen From edwin at humanityquest.com Fri Jan 18 00:50:08 2002 From: edwin at humanityquest.com (Edwin Rutsch) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:50:08 -0800 Subject: Call; Article submission request for a book, Inspiration in Nahuatl Message-ID: I am looking for native speaking language experts to contribute a short 300 word article, on the meaning of the word for "Inspiration" in their language of expertise. This is for inclusion in an art book I am writing entitled "The Spirit of Inspiration". I would like to have at least 50 different languages represented in the book. I was wondering anyone has any suggestions, tips or leads on where I could find contributors in the Nahuatl language? The ideal contributor would be of Aztec heritage. The article would include aspects of the following about the the nature of inspiration; the definition, etymology, how it is expressed in the arts and the authors personal insights. I have created a detailed submission guideline with a sample article which you can view at this URL; http://Humanityquest.com/Themes/Inspiration/ArticleGuidelines/index.asp List of existing languages and contributors humanityquest.com/Themes/Inspiration/ArticleGuidelines/ContributorsList. htm Is there a word for Inspiration in Nahuatl that comes to mind? Any comments would be most appreciated. I can be reached directly at edwin at humanityquest.com Thank You Edwin Edwin Rutsch edwin at humanityquest.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LaVoz at Aztlan.Net Fri Jan 18 03:44:57 2002 From: LaVoz at Aztlan.Net (La Voz de Aztlan) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:44:57 -0800 Subject: Vatican to Canonize Cuauhtlatoahtzin (Juan Diego) Message-ID: Vatican to Canonize Cuauhtlatoahtzin (Juan Diego) Pope John Paul II to visit Tenochtitlan in July by Miroslava Flores La Voz de Aztlan Los Angeles, Alta California - 1/17/2001 - (ACN) The Vatican "Il Messaggero" has issued a press release that Pope Paul II will be in Tenochtitlan (Mexico City) from July 28th to the 30th to officially Canonize the now Blessed Juan Diego whose original Mexica name was Cuauhtlatoahtzin. Juan Diego was Beatified in April, 1990 by the Pope. The next and last step is "Sainthood" and this process will begin as soon as "Canonization" is accomplished. The Mexica, Juan Diego, is revered in Mexico because he was instrumental in unifying indigenous spiritual beliefs with Christianity. Soon after Catholic Hernan Cortez and his Spanish soldiers conquered the great Mexica capital of Tenochtitltan, there ensued a bloody clash between indigenous religious beliefs and the Christian Catholic religion. The apparition of Tecuauhtlacuepeuh (Virgen de Guadalupe) to Juan Diego in Tepeyac, at the very place that the Mexicas worshiped the goddess Tonantzin, had a very powerful unifying effect between new world religious beliefs and the old. Tonantzin was the goddess of earth and corn and the name means ?our mother" in Nahuatl, the Mexica language. The apparition took place one day in 1531 as Juan Diego passed the sacred place of Tepeyac. As he reached Tepeyac, he stopped and stood still, disbelieving the heavenly fragrance he smelled and celestial music he heard. Before him shone a glowing cloud surrounded by rainbows. Then Tecuauhtlacuepeuh emerged, robed in blue and gold and rose. She calmed his fears, calling him ?little son,? and urging him to return to the city and request the bishop to build a shrine to her on the very place of the fallen goddess Tonantzin. The bishop did not believe Juan Diego and sent him away. Ashamed of his failure, Juan avoided Tepeyac, but Tecuauhtlacuepeuh found him and urged him once again. It was not until the third time, however, that she sent proof of her appearance and the miracle. She told Juan Diego to pick the Castilian roses, which do not exist in that climate but were miraculously growing right in front of him. He gathered them using his tilma and approached the church dignitary. Juan Diego unfolded his tilma and the bishop saw that emblazoned on the front was a beautiful olive skin lady and the miraculous blossoms laying at her feet. The bishop asked Juan Diego who the lady was and he answered Tecuauhtlacuepeuh which in Nahuatl sounds like "guadalupe". The bishop associated the lady with the Muslim Spanish Madonna "Our Lady of Guadalupe" that was venerated high in the Estremadura Mountains. As the Moslems swept through Spain in the 8th century, a great religious treasure was buried for safe-keeping in the earth, in the Estremadura Mountains. It was a much venerated statue of Our Lady holding the Divine Child Jesus that was a gift of Pope Gregory the Great to Bishop Leander of Seville. After the overthrow of Moorish occupation, the image was uncovered in the year 1326, subsequent to a vision of Our Lady to a humble shepherd by the name of Gil. Our Lady's very special statue was enshrined in a nearby Franciscan Monastery next to the "Wolf River." The Moslems, during their Spanish occupation, had actually named the river. The Islamic term for Wolf River is "Guadalupe" (Guada = River; Lupe = Wolf). Hence, the famous Catholic image in Spain has been known, since the 14th century, by the Islamic name of "Our Lady of Guadalupe." The bishop named the Mexican Madonna "Our Lady of Guadalupe." It is interesting that the "crescent" under the feet of "Our Lady of Guadalupe" is also the symbol for Islam. Today, "Our Lady of Guadalupe" is known in Mexico as " La Virgen de Guadalupe" or "Nuestra Senora La Virgen de Guadalupe" but the name that she originally gave Cuauhtlatoahtzin or Juan Diego was Tecuauhtlacuepeuh. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This article along with beautiful paintings of Cuauhtlatoahtzin (Juan Diego) and Tecuauhtlacuepeuh (La Virgen de Guadalupe) are published at: http://www.aztlan.net/juandiego.htm. From liccuriel at hotmail.com Fri Jan 18 19:49:31 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 19:49:31 +0000 Subject: Juan Diego and Guadalupe Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From liccuriel at hotmail.com Fri Jan 18 20:39:14 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 20:39:14 +0000 Subject: Apariciones Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From crodriguez at tec.com.mx Fri Jan 18 21:05:21 2002 From: crodriguez at tec.com.mx (Claudia Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 15:05:21 -0600 Subject: Juan Diego and Guadalupe Message-ID: Is this subject restricted as well as the morality of human sacrifices among aztecs or only the last one? thanks Claudia Rodr?guez ----- Original Message ----- From: Elisabeth Curiel To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 1:49 PM Subject: Juan Diego and Guadalupe Sencillamente no puedo creer que en el siglo XXI aun haya gente que crea en el mito de las apariciones de la Virgen Guadalupe al indio Juan Diego. La Iglesia era due?a absoluta de los indios, de sus tierras, de sus bienes materiales, pero no satisfechos con ello, planearon subyugar sus esp?ritus por medio de un mito cursi, digno m?s de las historias medievales que de mentes cient?ficas del siglo XX. No he encontrado ninguna fuente fidedigna que avale semejante cuento, peor si he encontrado inumerables testimonios sobre el p?simo comportamiento, de las mentiras y de los enga?os a los que ha sometido la Iglesia a nuestros ind?genas. Si alguien tiene curiosidad, por favor lea el tomo IV de "Mexico a Trav?s de los Siglos", escrito por varios eruditos. Con todo respeto. Elisabeth Curiel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN Photos es la manera m?s sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus fotos. http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From liccuriel at hotmail.com Fri Jan 18 21:30:23 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 21:30:23 +0000 Subject: Apariciones Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From liccuriel at hotmail.com Sat Jan 19 21:36:11 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:36:11 +0000 Subject: Human Sacrifices Message-ID: Dear Cristine: Attached to this email, I am sending an extract from Rethorica Christiana, a very rare documento written in Latin, by Fray Diego Valadez O.F.M. in 1576. In 1989, Doctor Rub?n Bonifaz Nu?o and a group of scholars traslated the document into Spanish. The extract I am sending you is only a very small part of the book that makes reference to the indians religious practices. The rest of the whole book, as its name indicates, is about Rethorica. And, my comments on your letter is this: human sacrifices were prohibited by Quetzalc?atl (real name: Precious Twin, the serpent and the feathers were only glyphs to represent “Precious” and “Twin” (Venus) in their writings). Aztecs regarded the Precios Twin or Quetzalc?atl as a symbol of Priesthood, nobility and power over the rest of the world. But Aztecs worshiped Huitzilopochtli as their ruler deity. Of course, all the oral traditions on Quetzalcoatl must be very cautiosly taken, since they are so many and so different. The symbol of the Eagle and the Serpent has this only meaning: The Sun God, the Aztec’s, God defeated Toltec’s god, the Precious Twin, or coatl. But they still, kept their priesthood (the defeated old Toltec’s precious priesthood, so they (the Aztecs) named their Supreme Priests “Quetzalcoatl”). The relators and sourcers of Fray Bernardino de Sahag?n, are a good reason to believe they practiced human sacrifices, and some hints you get when you visit those aztec ruins in the heart of Mexico City, and I can’t easily regard, all XVI century historians as liers. Elisabeth Curiel _________________________________________________________________ Con MSN Hotmail s?mese al servicio de correo electr?nico m?s grande del mundo. http://www.hotmail.com/ES -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: VALADEZ.doc Type: application/msword Size: 24064 bytes Desc: not available URL: From liccuriel at hotmail.com Sun Jan 20 17:55:55 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 17:55:55 +0000 Subject: Quetzalcoatl Message-ID: To Brant: Brant: [ am not sure that the Mexica understood Quetzalcoatl as "precious twin"] Lisita: Quetzalcoatl-Venus was worshiped in many important cities such as Teotihuacan and Tula, many many centuries before the Aztecs. They indeed knwe all the meaning of the ancient religion, but I doubt that Aztecs would give away any precious and sacred knowledge related to their highest priesthood, such as that of the venerable and old god Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli-Quetzalcoatl. The little they let us know is that they believed he ruled the sky at noon (the twelfth hour of the day). They performed some rituals when Venus aligned with the pleiades. Brant: [even though one might be able to pull that meaning out of the use of coa- for twin] Lisita: I see you know nahuatl. Then you can guess what glyph Aztecs used to represent a twin in their writings and statues to represent that God (The precious twin). There were two enormous Quetzalcoatl heads in the entrance of the Great Temple, that the friars described as "monstruosas" and "espantables". (Those good Those innocent and sweet friars, and I mean it, because I respect them very much) “Leyenda de los Soles” is a dark and inexplicable document. Nobody can dare to say that can interpret it. But now that you mention it, would you like to discuse some of tose dark paragraphs? Like the meaning of the "heycomitl" in paragraph 2, that Primo Feliciano Velazquez (nahuatlato) called in Spanish "biznaga". The paragraph says: "Mixc?atl el menor huy?, escap? de sus manos y se meti? apresudado dentro de una biznaga -or hueycomitl" I don't like Primo Feliciano Velazquez biased interpretation. Do you know of someone else's translation, available. I live in M?xico, of course, and you don't know how great advance Internet has been to us. We can now talk to people like all you. Elisabeth _________________________________________________________________ Descargue GRATUITAMENTE MSN Explorer en http://explorer.yupimsn.com/intl.asp From liccuriel at hotmail.com Sun Jan 20 19:33:17 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:33:17 +0000 Subject: la nobleza azteca Message-ID: Apreciada Cristine: Desafortunadamente, la Inquisici?n, la evoluci?n cultural natural de los tiempos, el desconocimiento de los antiguos secretos sagrados del sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e impresionar a los buenos reyes espa?oles, y muchos otros factores m?s, distorsionaron la informaci?n que nos dejaron los historiadores precortesianos, y ahora nos obligan (como las cocineras que sacan los negritos del arroz) a buscar cuidadosamente las verdades entre todos aquellos escritos y fuentes de los que podemos valernos para adquirir conocimiento sobre la civilizaci?n, la religi?n y la lengua de los antiguos. Los Aztecas ten?an una nobleza, no igual, pero si a la manera de la de los europeos, los africanos, los asi?ticos, etc. y en general, a la manera de la que han tenido todas las civilizaciones antiguas importantes. Supongo que recordar?s de entre la informaci?n que has le?do, que los aztecas, para convertirse ellos en un pueblo con ascendencia sobre los dem?s, cuando apenas eran una tribu n?mada salvaje e insignificante, casaron a su primer rey con una princesa tolteca para dar legitimidad a su reinado. (oh ya se, alguien me va a contestar que no eran insignificantes, por favor no se molesten en ese tipo de controversias) Citar? la fuente m?s fidedigna que conozco, que dice: “13 calli. En este a?o fue traido Acamapichtli a Tenochtitlan; fue a traerle de Tetzcoco la mujer Illancueyetl [de ascendencia noble tolteca]. 1 tochtli. En este 1 tochtli se dieron rey los teochcas. Entonces se entroniz? Acamapixtli en Tenochtitlan. Seg?n se dice, solamente su mujer Illancueytl le constitut? rey. Ah? comenz? la monarqu?a de los mexicanos.” Anales de Cuauhtitlan, traducci?n de Primo Feliciano Felazquez. p?rrafo 129. Atentamente, Elisabeth Curiel _________________________________________________________________ Descargue GRATUITAMENTE MSN Explorer en http://explorer.yupimsn.com/intl.asp From mdmorris at indiana.edu Mon Jan 21 16:25:41 2002 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:25:41 -0500 Subject: Southern Origin of Uto Aztecan hypothesis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Johanna, My apologies for the late reply, but the state of our technology in Santa Ana Chiautempan sometimes complicates getting out timely responses. I would be interested in hearing more about Hill's argument if you could provide further information. Like Alec, I also lean toward a western hypothesis (whether north or south I know not) for eruption of Nahuatl in central and eastern Mexico and the consequent separation of "Mayan" languages into northern and southern branches, and I believe that the Rio Balsas-Rio Atoyac route into the Tlaxcala-Puebla valley would be the probable route of Nahuatl's migration into central-eastern Mesoamerica. Given the clear presence of Nahuatl in the culture of the Olmeca-Xicallanca who establish in Cholula and Cacaxtla by 650 A.D. and who had been the key mediators of long distance trade between Teotihuacan and the region of the Usamacinta River, I have a hard time imagining that Nahuatl was not a key part of the fluorescence of culture, commerce and communication in the "Classic" period of Teotihuacan and Cholula. Below follow some thoughts on your earlier posting on Tezcatlipoca and a passage from a personal letter written in Tlaxcala (Panotlan) in 1743 that may be of some related interest to you. I think your reading of Tezcatlipoca as being "two and three" as specific manifestations is correct and that Tezcatlipoca was a strong tutelary god because he was many, or omnipresent. For example, his various names probably point not only to different metaphorical expressions of Tezcatlipoca but also traces of older Mesoamerican deities such as jaguar that were applied to Tezcatlipoca and that brought different calendar and festival associations to the cult of Tezcatlipoca. Zapata y Mendoza's citation of the Franciscans' whipping of a youth who appeared as Necoc Yaotl in San Sebastin Matlahuacala also gives the impression that Necoc Yaotl had his own distinct atavios. Whether by accretion of older traditions or metaphorical elaboration, the sum of Tezcatlipoca in postclassic Mexico as a omnipresent "trickster" god associated with war, night and water easily reconciles the two interpretations offered by Preuss and Mengin and Kirchoff: being two or three refers to being many or being "omnipresent," a chief molder of human affairs who can assure the Tolteca-Xicallanca victory against the Olmeca-Xicallanca. Text: Auh tlazo mahuistic Pilic onicnequisquia oniYesquia niMiquetzin nozo ni Santiago = mah onimohquepani niYey nozo ninahui ycah nimismohmahquili pahquili in san nozel yhuan totlazo mahuisnantzin ycah nixicos. P.S. In honor of your comments on Tezcatlipoca, Luis Reyes' Nahuatl seminar translated this letter on Saturday past, that which would be available to you, if there are no more tricks played here while I'm trying to be so quiet. Sincerely, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From Huaxyacac at aol.com Tue Jan 22 04:34:11 2002 From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:34:11 EST Subject: Southern Origin of Uto Aztecan hypothesis Message-ID: In a message dated 01/21/2002 11:28:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, mdmorris at indiana.edu writes: > I also lean toward a western > hypothesis (whether north or south I know not) for eruption of Nahuatl in > central and eastern Mexico and the consequent separation of "Mayan" > languages into northern and southern branches, and I believe that the Rio > Balsas-Rio Atoyac route into the Tlaxcala-Puebla valley would be the > probable route of Nahuatl's migration into central-eastern Mesoamerica. Given my current work in the Mezquital, this makes sense to me, as I am quite sure that Nahuatl was not spoken in that area in the Postclassic except by elites and small migrant groups. I don't see any evidence for a sea of Otomi migrants arriving prior to that, so I assume it (or an ancestral form) has been spoken across Hidalgo for a long time, if not since the initial divergence from proto-Otomanguean. Nahuatl entering from the west rather than the north fits with this. > Given the clear presence of Nahuatl in the culture of the > Olmeca-Xicallanca who establish in Cholula and Cacaxtla by 650 A.D. and > who had been the key mediators of long distance trade between Teotihuacan > and the region of the Usamacinta River, I have a hard time imagining that > Nahuatl was not a key part of the fluorescence of culture, commerce and > communication in the "Classic" period of Teotihuacan and Cholula. I'm curious what you base the linguistic identity of the Olmeca-Xicallanca on. I'm not disputing the statement, although I still am inclined to think that the major movement of Nahua-speakers came in the Epiclassic, not the Classic, I'm just curious what amounts to a "clear presence." Alec Christensen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Jan 22 16:05:37 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:05:37 -0600 Subject: la nobleza azteca Message-ID: approve: Nahuatl.pass Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:13:38 +0100 From: Carlos Santamarina Novillo To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu Subject: Re: la nobleza azteca Elisabeth Curiel ha escrito: > Desafortunadamente, la Inquisici?n, la evoluci?n cultural natural de > los > tiempos, el desconocimiento de los antiguos secretos sagrados del > sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e impresionar a los buenos reyes > espa?oles, > y muchos otros factores m?s, distorsionaron la informaci?n que nos > dejaron > los historiadores precortesianos, y ahora nos obligan (como las > cocineras > que sacan los negritos del arroz) a buscar cuidadosamente las verdades > entre > todos aquellos escritos y fuentes de los que podemos valernos para > adquirir > conocimiento sobre la civilizaci?n, la religi?n y la lengua de los > antiguos. Analicemos-interpretemos el texto. Hay un protagonista central: "la informaci?n que nos dejaron los historiadores precortesianos" que sufre la acci?n de un verbo: "fue distorsionada"; y una serie de factores causantes de la negativa acci?n de ese verbo: "la Inquisici?n, la evoluci?n natural de los tiempos, el desconocimiento de los antiguos secretos sagrados del sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e impresionar a los buenos reyes espa?oles, etc." Lo anterior nos obliga -a los historiadores modernos- a tratar de desandar aquel proceso para recuperar "las verdades". No cabe duda, entonces de la identificaci?n que la autora lleva a cabo entre aquel protagonista central y este ?ltimo objetivo actual, es decir, entre "la informaci?n que nos dejaron los historiadores precortesianos" y "las verdades". Subyace una interpretaci?n maniquea y simplista -desgraciadamente todav?a muy extendida en M?xico- que identifica verdad, legitimidad, justicia con los aqu? llamados "precortesianos", mientras a los espa?oles corresponden las "virtudes" opuestas. Se dir?a que fueron los espa?oles los que introdujeron en Mesoam?rica la mentira y las versiones historiogr?ficas asociadas al poder. Manida, simplista, maniquea y aburrida visi?n de la historia humana. Las fuentes ind?genas, como cualquier otra, han de ser sometidas a cr?tica para aprender a reconocer las versiones interesadas que de su propia historia dieron las ?lites ind?genas. Cualquiera que est? introducido en el tema conoce el etnocentrismo caracter?stico de la historiograf?a ind?gena, y los Anales de Cuauhtitlan son un ejemplo destacado. Adem?s, siendo la azteca una sociedad estratificada, con clases o estamentos diferenciados, no sorprende que la historia estuviera al servicio del poder, que Itzc?atl mandara quemar los viejos "papeles pintados" y reescribir la historia a la mayor gloria de los nuevos se?ores. S?lo citar las fuentes derivadas de la llamada "Cr?nica X" o la obra de Fdo. de Alva Ixtlilx?chitl es ya referirse a parcialidad interesada, etnocentrismo y tendenciosidad. Todo lo anterior s?lo viene a concluir que la lucha del historiador moderno en b?squeda de la verdad ha de tener en cuenta todos los "estratos de tergiversaci?n" y subjetividad que las fuentes han venido atravesando desde su misma gestaci?n. Y eso no se detiene en 1521, sino que afecta a todos los periodos de la historia humana. Gracias y a seguir bien. < Carlos Santamarina Novillo --- carlossn at diploma.com > From liccuriel at hotmail.com Tue Jan 22 16:23:23 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:23:23 +0000 Subject: nobleza azteca Message-ID: Carlos Santamar?a: Entre toda tu bara?nta de disertaciones pretenciosas con que me apabullaste, no entendi qu? quisiste decir exactamente. ?Etnocentrismo? No, no no. Los tiempos evolucionan. Te pondr? un ejemplo: En tiempos de mi trisabuela (hace m?s de 80 a?os), decirle "macho" a un hombre, era el mayor halago que se le podr?a decir. Si yo le digo eso a un hombre hoy, me fulmina con la mirada. Y por supuesto que lo que hicieron los colonizadores del Nuevo Mundo fue muy influenciante, pero ?qu? se le hace compadre! Los reyes espa?oles se cansaron de redactar c?dular, nombrar visitadores, etc., para vigilar que sus vasallos obedecieran sus ordenanzas y que no terminaran con los naturales del pais como hicieron con los de la Espa?ola; y nada que los ambiciosos colonizadores continuaron haciendo esclavos, rob?ndoles sus "sementeras", herr?ndoles las mejillas como a animales, creando encomiendas, y muchas lindezas m?s. ?Etnocentrismo? ni siquiera tienes idea de lo que dices. Y respecto a los Anales de Cuauhtitlan, que fueron rescatadas por don Fernando de Alba, mi comentario fue sobre la inexactitud de la traducci?n que hizo Primo Feliciano Velazquez, un nahuatlato, quien indudablemente estaba fuertemente influenciada por los motivos mencionados en mi carta, y de los cuales haces mofa con tanta gracia. Te pondr? un ejemplo obvio: noto que el traductor, un descendiente de nobles, traduce "nopiltzin", como "mi hijo", al referirse a Quetzalc?uatl, cuando los "demonios" van a enga?arlo, y no lo traduce como "nuestro pr?ncipe", como deber?a ser m?s propio al dirigirse a un rey de la altura del Gemelo Precioso. Por supuesto, que nopiltzin podr?a traducirse como mi hijo, pero no en este caso, digo, soy un poco lerda y puedo equivocarme. ?Acaso en la antiguedad, cuando se presentaba un extra?o ante un rey, le llamaba "mi hijito"? Si es as?, por favor cita fuentes. Texto citado: "Quilhui nopiltzin tlamacazqui ca nimomacehual ompanihuitzin nonohualcatepetl itzintlan maxicmottili in monacayotzin, niman cenmacac in Tetzcatl quilhui maxi miximati maxi mottanopiltzin ? ca ompa tonneciz in tetzcatl." Primo Feliciano traduce: "Aqu?l respondi?: “Hijo m?o, sacerdote, yo soy tu vasallo; vengo de la falda de Nonohualcat?petl; mira se?or, tu cuerpo. Luego le dio el espejo y le dijo: “Mirate y con?cete, hijo mio; que has de aparecer en el espejo.” Lisita Curiel PS (Lo del diminutivo es etno-egocentrismo eh?) >From: Carlos Santamarina Novillo >To: Elisabeth Curiel , nahuatl-l at mrs.umn.edu >Subject: Re: la nobleza azteca >Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:31:21 +0100 > > >Elisabeth Curiel ha escrito: > > > Desafortunadamente, la Inquisici?n, la evoluci?n cultural natural de los > > tiempos, el desconocimiento de los antiguos secretos sagrados del > > sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e impresionar a los buenos reyes >espa?oles, > > y muchos otros factores m?s, distorsionaron la informaci?n que nos >dejaron > > los historiadores precortesianos, y ahora nos obligan (como las >cocineras > > que sacan los negritos del arroz) a buscar cuidadosamente las verdades >entre > > todos aquellos escritos y fuentes de los que podemos valernos para >adquirir > > conocimiento sobre la civilizaci?n, la religi?n y la lengua de los >antiguos. > >Analicemos-interpretemos el texto. > >Hay un protagonista central: "la informaci?n que nos dejaron los >historiadores precortesianos" >que sufre la acci?n de un verbo: "fue distorsionada"; >y una serie de factores causantes de la negativa acci?n de ese verbo: >"la >Inquisici?n, la evoluci?n natural de los tiempos, el desconocimiento de los >antiguos secretos sagrados del sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e >impresionar a >los buenos reyes espa?oles, etc." > Lo anterior nos obliga -a los historiadores modernos- a tratar de >desandar >aquel proceso para recuperar "las verdades". No cabe duda, entonces de la >identificaci?n que la autora lleva a cabo entre aquel protagonista central >y >este ?ltimo objetivo actual, es decir, entre "la informaci?n que nos >dejaron los >historiadores precortesianos" y "las verdades". > > Subyace una interpretaci?n maniquea y simplista -desgraciadamente >todav?a muy >extendida en M?xico- que identifica verdad, legitimidad, justicia con los >aqu? >llamados "precortesianos", mientras a los espa?oles corresponden las >"virtudes" >opuestas. Se dir?a que fueron los espa?oles los que introdujeron en >Mesoam?rica >la mentira y las versiones historiogr?ficas asociadas al poder. Manida, >simplista, maniquea y aburrida visi?n de la historia humana. > Las fuentes ind?genas, como cualquier otra, han de ser sometidas a >cr?tica >para aprender a reconocer las versiones interesadas que de su propia >historia >dieron las ?lites ind?genas. Cualquiera que est? introducido en el tema >conoce >el etnocentrismo caracter?stico de la historiograf?a ind?gena, y los Anales >de >Cuauhtitlan son un ejemplo destacado. Adem?s, siendo la azteca una sociedad >estratificada, con clases o estamentos diferenciados, no sorprende que la >historia estuviera al servicio del poder, que Itzc?atl mandara quemar los >viejos >"papeles pintados" y reescribir la historia a la mayor gloria de los nuevos >se?ores. S?lo citar las fuentes derivadas de la llamada "Cr?nica X" o la >obra de >Fdo. de Alva Ixtlilx?chitl es ya referirse a parcialidad interesada, >etnocentrismo y tendenciosidad. > Todo lo anterior s?lo viene a concluir que la lucha del historiador >moderno >en b?squeda de la verdad ha de tener en cuenta todos los "estratos de >tergiversaci?n" y subjetividad que las fuentes han venido atravesando desde >su >misma gestaci?n. Y eso no se detiene en 1521, sino que afecta a todos los >periodos de la historia humana. > >Gracias y a seguir bien. > >< Carlos Santamarina Novillo --- carlossn at diploma.com > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos es la manera m?s sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus fotos: http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue Jan 22 16:47:08 2002 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:47:08 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Glosas_en_nahuatl_del_C=F3dice_de_Huichapan?= Message-ID: Estimados listeros: El C'odice de Huichapan (ca. 1632) tiene muchas glosas alfab'eticas en otom'i, 111 en castellano y 22 en n'ahuatl. Necesito traducir las glosas en n'ahuatl para mi proyecto actual, pero mis conocimientos de esta lengua son todav'ia elementales. Algunas glosas son antrop'onimos, otras son top'onimos, hay un gentilicio y aparece una frase corta que se repite. A continuaci'on apuntar'e las traducciones que hice, con la petici'on de que las critiquen, y que me ayuden con las dos glosas que no pude resolver (nos. 13 y 14). He convertido las cedillas en zetas con asterisco (z*) para asegurar su transmisi'on por correo electr'onico. ******************************************** 1. (borrado) oqualoc yntonatiuh otlayoua. "(...) fue comido el Sol; oscureci'o" 2. Chimalpupuca. "Escudo humeante" 3. Yzcoatl. "Serpiente de obsidiana" 4. Quauhxilotl. "Jilote del 'aguila"; "jilote del bosque"; "jilote del 'arbol"; "jilote de madera" 5. Tultitlan. "Entre los juncos" 6. Quauhtitlan. "Junto al 'arbol"; "entre los 'arboles"; "en el bosque" 7. Ilhuicaminatl ueuemotecz*uma. "Se'nor enojado (que frunce las cejas) grande/viejo, flechador del cielo" 8. Maz*auaque. "Poseedores de los venados"; "mazahuas" (gentilicio) 9. Nican oqualoc yntonatiuh otlayoua. "Aqu'i fue comido el Sol; oscureci'o" 10. Uiz*octzin. "Venerado se?or palanca de roble para labrar la tierra" 11. Axayacatzin. "Cara de agua" 12. Ylamatzin. "Venerada anciana" 13. Ticaltitzintiz*ocac. "(???)" 14. Ymexayac. "Cara de (???)" 15. (ilegible) xoch (roto). "(...) flor (...)" 16. Amaxtlac. "En el taparrabo de agua" 17. Tequantepec. "En el cerro del que come a alguien (animal antrop'ofago)"; "en el cerro que come a alguien (monta'na antrop'ofaga)" 18. (Se repite el top'onimo anterior) 19. Motecz*uma. "Se'nor enojado (que frunce las cejas)" 20. Teziuatl. "Mujer de piedra"; "mujer dura" 21. Z*opantepec. "En el cerro de la bandera de [???]" (?Tzonpantepec / Tzompantepec, "en el cerro de la bandera de pelo" / "en el cerro de la bandera de la cabeza"?) 22. Nican oqualoc yn tonatiuh otlayoua. "Aqu'i fue comido el Sol; oscureci'o" ********************************************* Mil gracias de antemano por sus comentarios. Saludos, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue Jan 22 16:51:19 2002 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:51:19 -0600 Subject: Nahua origins Message-ID: Listeros: Regarding the controversy surrounding the presence of various linguistic groups in central Mexico during the Classic period, and in support of Alec's recent message, there are some elementary linguistic facts which should not be ignored. The Mesoamerican Otopames (speakers of Otomi, Mazahua, Matlatzinca and Ocuilteco) have a geographic distribution which parallels their linguistic affinities; that is to say, those groups which speak languages more closely related occupy adjacent or nearby territories. The obvious explanation for this is that their ancestors lived in approximately the same areas since before the related tongues branched off from an ancestral language. It's hard to imagine immigrants settling a landscape in accordance with a linguistic classification of which they were largely unaware. Glottochronology is admittedly an imprecise yardstick, but it gives us a very rough idea of when these languages diverged, and the Otopamean presence in the area goes back to the Formative and probably beyond, even allowing a margin of error of over five centuries for the glottochronological dates. Applying the same line of reasoning to the Nahuas, the lack of temporal depth in the central valleys of Mexico (compared with the Otopamean group) is evident and would seem to go back just to the Epiclassic and Postclassic periods. If Nahuas lived at Teotihuacan they were probably just an enclave like the Veracruzanos or the Oaxaque?os; a Nahua majority at Teotihuacan would probably have resulted in greater dialectological and glotochronological depth in the region. The fact that the closest linguistic relatives of the nahua-pochuteco group are all located in northwestern Mexico is revealing as to where their heartland lies. I also think these linguistic considerations fit well with the archaeological and ethnohistorical evidence available to date. Saludos, David Wright P.S. I haven't gotten my hands on the article which started this yet, but couldn't resist throwing in my two cents. I'll read it as I have the opportunity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LaVoz at Aztlan.Net Tue Jan 22 17:12:39 2002 From: LaVoz at Aztlan.Net (La Voz de Aztlan) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:12:39 -0800 Subject: nobleza azteca In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is nothing but pure "bombastic verbosity" in Spanish!!! Too many Mexicans are proned to this sort of "bullshit" that uses too many high sounding verbs and nouns that say nothing. Enough! Ya Basta! La Voz de Aztlan http://www.aztlan.net On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:23:23 +0000 "Elisabeth Curiel" wrote: Carlos Santamar?a: Entre toda tu bara?nta de disertaciones pretenciosas con que me apabullaste, no entendi qu? quisiste decir exactamente. ?Etnocentrismo? No, no no. Los tiempos evolucionan. Te pondr? un ejemplo: En tiempos de mi trisabuela (hace m?s de 80 a?os), decirle "macho" a un hombre, era el mayor halago que se le podr?a decir. Si yo le digo eso a un hombre hoy, me fulmina con la mirada. Y por supuesto que lo que hicieron los colonizadores del Nuevo Mundo fue muy influenciante, pero ?qu? se le hace compadre! Los reyes espa?oles se cansaron de redactar c?dular, nombrar visitadores, etc., para vigilar que sus vasallos obedecieran sus ordenanzas y que no terminaran con los naturales del pais como hicieron con los de la Espa?ola; y nada que los ambiciosos colonizadores continuaron haciendo esclavos, rob?ndoles sus "sementeras", herr?ndoles las mejillas como a animales, creando encomiendas, y muchas lindezas m?s. ?Etnocentrismo? ni siquiera tienes idea de lo que dices. Y respecto a los Anales de Cuauhtitlan, que fueron rescatadas por don Fernando de Alba, mi comentario fue sobre la inexactitud de la traducci?n que hizo Primo Feliciano Velazquez, un nahuatlato, quien indudablemente estaba fuertemente influenciada por los motivos mencionados en mi carta, y de los cuales haces mofa con tanta gracia. Te pondr? un ejemplo obvio: noto que el traductor, un descendiente de nobles, traduce "nopiltzin", como "mi hijo", al referirse a Quetzalc?uatl, cuando los "demonios" van a enga?arlo, y no lo traduce como "nuestro pr?ncipe", como deber?a ser m?s propio al dirigirse a un rey de la altura del Gemelo Precioso. Por supuesto, que nopiltzin podr?a traducirse como mi hijo, pero no en este caso, digo, soy un poco lerda y puedo equivocarme. ?Acaso en la antiguedad, cuando se presentaba un extra?o ante un rey, le llamaba "mi hijito"? Si es as?, por favor cita fuentes. Texto citado: "Quilhui nopiltzin tlamacazqui ca nimomacehual ompanihuitzin nonohualcatepetl itzintlan maxicmottili in monacayotzin, niman cenmacac in Tetzcatl quilhui maxi miximati maxi mottanopiltzin ? ca ompa tonneciz in tetzcatl." Primo Feliciano traduce: "Aqu?l respondi?: “Hijo m?o, sacerdote, yo soy tu vasallo; vengo de la falda de Nonohualcat?petl; mira se?or, tu cuerpo. Luego le dio el espejo y le dijo: “Mirate y con?cete, hijo mio; que has de aparecer en el espejo.” Lisita Curiel PS (Lo del diminutivo es etno-egocentrismo eh?) >From: Carlos Santamarina Novillo >To: Elisabeth Curiel , nahuatl-l at mrs.umn.edu >Subject: Re: la nobleza azteca >Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:31:21 +0100 > > >Elisabeth Curiel ha escrito: > > > Desafortunadamente, la Inquisici?n, la evoluci?n cultural natural de los > > tiempos, el desconocimiento de los antiguos secretos sagrados del > > sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e impresionar a los buenos reyes >espa?oles, > > y muchos otros factores m?s, distorsionaron la informaci?n que nos >dejaron > > los historiadores precortesianos, y ahora nos obligan (como las >cocineras > > que sacan los negritos del arroz) a buscar cuidadosamente las verdades >entre > > todos aquellos escritos y fuentes de los que podemos valernos para >adquirir > > conocimiento sobre la civilizaci?n, la religi?n y la lengua de los >antiguos. > >Analicemos-interpretemos el texto. > >Hay un protagonista central: "la informaci?n que nos dejaron los >historiadores precortesianos" >que sufre la acci?n de un verbo: "fue distorsionada"; >y una serie de factores causantes de la negativa acci?n de ese verbo: >"la >Inquisici?n, la evoluci?n natural de los tiempos, el desconocimiento de los >antiguos secretos sagrados del sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e >impresionar a >los buenos reyes espa?oles, etc." > Lo anterior nos obliga -a los historiadores modernos- a tratar de >desandar >aquel proceso para recuperar "las verdades". No cabe duda, entonces de la >identificaci?n que la autora lleva a cabo entre aquel protagonista central >y >este ?ltimo objetivo actual, es decir, entre "la informaci?n que nos >dejaron los >historiadores precortesianos" y "las verdades". > > Subyace una interpretaci?n maniquea y simplista -desgraciadamente >todav?a muy >extendida en M?xico- que identifica verdad, legitimidad, justicia con los >aqu? >llamados "precortesianos", mientras a los espa?oles corresponden las >"virtudes" >opuestas. Se dir?a que fueron los espa?oles los que introdujeron en >Mesoam?rica >la mentira y las versiones historiogr?ficas asociadas al poder. Manida, >simplista, maniquea y aburrida visi?n de la historia humana. > Las fuentes ind?genas, como cualquier otra, han de ser sometidas a >cr?tica >para aprender a reconocer las versiones interesadas que de su propia >historia >dieron las ?lites ind?genas. Cualquiera que est? introducido en el tema >conoce >el etnocentrismo caracter?stico de la historiograf?a ind?gena, y los Anales >de >Cuauhtitlan son un ejemplo destacado. Adem?s, siendo la azteca una sociedad >estratificada, con clases o estamentos diferenciados, no sorprende que la >historia estuviera al servicio del poder, que Itzc?atl mandara quemar los >viejos >"papeles pintados" y reescribir la historia a la mayor gloria de los nuevos >se?ores. S?lo citar las fuentes derivadas de la llamada "Cr?nica X" o la >obra de >Fdo. de Alva Ixtlilx?chitl es ya referirse a parcialidad interesada, >etnocentrismo y tendenciosidad. > Todo lo anterior s?lo viene a concluir que la lucha del historiador >moderno >en b?squeda de la verdad ha de tener en cuenta todos los "estratos de >tergiversaci?n" y subjetividad que las fuentes han venido atravesando desde >su >misma gestaci?n. Y eso no se detiene en 1521, sino que afecta a todos los >periodos de la historia humana. > >Gracias y a seguir bien. > >< Carlos Santamarina Novillo --- carlossn at diploma.com > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos es la manera m?s sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus fotos: http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx From liccuriel at hotmail.com Tue Jan 22 17:15:58 2002 From: liccuriel at hotmail.com (Elisabeth Curiel) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:15:58 +0000 Subject: nobleza azteca Message-ID: De Lisita: Para: La Voz de Aztl?n (qu? raro nombre para una persona) Tienes raz?n. Prometo que de hoy en adelante me portar? bien. Hasta la vista. >From: La Voz de Aztlan >To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu >CC: liccuriel at hotmail.com, carlossn at diploma.com >Subject: Re[2]: nobleza azteca >Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:12:39 -0800 > >This is nothing but pure "bombastic verbosity" in Spanish!!! >Too many Mexicans are proned to this sort of "bullshit" that >uses too many high sounding verbs and nouns that say nothing. >Enough! Ya Basta! > >La Voz de Aztlan >http://www.aztlan.net > >On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:23:23 +0000 >"Elisabeth Curiel" wrote: > >Carlos Santamar?a: > >Entre toda tu bara?nta de disertaciones pretenciosas con que me >apabullaste, >no entendi qu? quisiste decir exactamente. ?Etnocentrismo? No, no no. Los >tiempos evolucionan. Te pondr? un ejemplo: En tiempos de mi trisabuela >(hace >m?s de 80 a?os), decirle "macho" a un hombre, era el mayor halago que se le >podr?a decir. Si yo le digo eso a un hombre hoy, me fulmina con la mirada. >Y >por supuesto que lo que hicieron los colonizadores del Nuevo Mundo fue muy >influenciante, pero ?qu? se le hace compadre! Los reyes espa?oles se >cansaron de redactar c?dular, nombrar visitadores, etc., para vigilar que >sus vasallos obedecieran sus ordenanzas y que no terminaran con los >naturales del pais como hicieron con los de la Espa?ola; y nada que los >ambiciosos colonizadores continuaron haciendo esclavos, rob?ndoles sus >"sementeras", herr?ndoles las mejillas como a animales, creando >encomiendas, >y muchas lindezas m?s. ?Etnocentrismo? ni siquiera tienes idea de lo que >dices. > >Y respecto a los Anales de Cuauhtitlan, que fueron rescatadas por don >Fernando de Alba, mi comentario fue sobre la inexactitud de la traducci?n >que hizo Primo Feliciano Velazquez, un nahuatlato, quien indudablemente >estaba fuertemente influenciada por los motivos mencionados en mi carta, y >de los cuales haces mofa con tanta gracia. > >Te pondr? un ejemplo obvio: noto que el traductor, un descendiente de >nobles, traduce "nopiltzin", como "mi hijo", al referirse a Quetzalc?uatl, >cuando los "demonios" van a enga?arlo, y no lo traduce como "nuestro >pr?ncipe", como deber?a ser m?s propio al dirigirse a un rey de la altura >del Gemelo Precioso. Por supuesto, que nopiltzin podr?a traducirse como mi >hijo, pero no en este caso, digo, soy un poco lerda y puedo equivocarme. > >?Acaso en la antiguedad, cuando se presentaba un extra?o ante un rey, le >llamaba "mi hijito"? Si es as?, por favor cita fuentes. > >Texto citado: "Quilhui nopiltzin tlamacazqui ca nimomacehual ompanihuitzin >nonohualcatepetl itzintlan maxicmottili in monacayotzin, niman cenmacac in >Tetzcatl quilhui maxi miximati maxi mottanopiltzin ? ca ompa tonneciz in >tetzcatl." > >Primo Feliciano traduce: "Aqu?l respondi?: “Hijo m?o, sacerdote, yo >soy tu vasallo; vengo de la falda de Nonohualcat?petl; mira se?or, tu >cuerpo. Luego le dio el espejo y le dijo: “Mirate y con?cete, hijo >mio; que has de aparecer en el espejo.” > >Lisita Curiel > >PS (Lo del diminutivo es etno-egocentrismo eh?) > > > > >From: Carlos Santamarina Novillo > >To: Elisabeth Curiel , nahuatl-l at mrs.umn.edu > >Subject: Re: la nobleza azteca > >Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:31:21 +0100 > > > > > >Elisabeth Curiel ha escrito: > > > > > Desafortunadamente, la Inquisici?n, la evoluci?n cultural natural de >los > > > tiempos, el desconocimiento de los antiguos secretos sagrados del > > > sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e impresionar a los buenos reyes > >espa?oles, > > > y muchos otros factores m?s, distorsionaron la informaci?n que nos > >dejaron > > > los historiadores precortesianos, y ahora nos obligan (como las > >cocineras > > > que sacan los negritos del arroz) a buscar cuidadosamente las verdades > >entre > > > todos aquellos escritos y fuentes de los que podemos valernos para > >adquirir > > > conocimiento sobre la civilizaci?n, la religi?n y la lengua de los > >antiguos. > > > >Analicemos-interpretemos el texto. > > > >Hay un protagonista central: "la informaci?n que nos dejaron los > >historiadores precortesianos" > >que sufre la acci?n de un verbo: "fue distorsionada"; > >y una serie de factores causantes de la negativa acci?n de ese verbo: > >"la > >Inquisici?n, la evoluci?n natural de los tiempos, el desconocimiento de >los > >antiguos secretos sagrados del sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e > >impresionar a > >los buenos reyes espa?oles, etc." > > Lo anterior nos obliga -a los historiadores modernos- a tratar de > >desandar > >aquel proceso para recuperar "las verdades". No cabe duda, entonces de la > >identificaci?n que la autora lleva a cabo entre aquel protagonista >central > >y > >este ?ltimo objetivo actual, es decir, entre "la informaci?n que nos > >dejaron los > >historiadores precortesianos" y "las verdades". > > > > Subyace una interpretaci?n maniquea y simplista -desgraciadamente > >todav?a muy > >extendida en M?xico- que identifica verdad, legitimidad, justicia con los > >aqu? > >llamados "precortesianos", mientras a los espa?oles corresponden las > >"virtudes" > >opuestas. Se dir?a que fueron los espa?oles los que introdujeron en > >Mesoam?rica > >la mentira y las versiones historiogr?ficas asociadas al poder. Manida, > >simplista, maniquea y aburrida visi?n de la historia humana. > > Las fuentes ind?genas, como cualquier otra, han de ser sometidas a > >cr?tica > >para aprender a reconocer las versiones interesadas que de su propia > >historia > >dieron las ?lites ind?genas. Cualquiera que est? introducido en el tema > >conoce > >el etnocentrismo caracter?stico de la historiograf?a ind?gena, y los >Anales > >de > >Cuauhtitlan son un ejemplo destacado. Adem?s, siendo la azteca una >sociedad > >estratificada, con clases o estamentos diferenciados, no sorprende que la > >historia estuviera al servicio del poder, que Itzc?atl mandara quemar los > >viejos > >"papeles pintados" y reescribir la historia a la mayor gloria de los >nuevos > >se?ores. S?lo citar las fuentes derivadas de la llamada "Cr?nica X" o la > >obra de > >Fdo. de Alva Ixtlilx?chitl es ya referirse a parcialidad interesada, > >etnocentrismo y tendenciosidad. > > Todo lo anterior s?lo viene a concluir que la lucha del historiador > >moderno > >en b?squeda de la verdad ha de tener en cuenta todos los "estratos de > >tergiversaci?n" y subjetividad que las fuentes han venido atravesando >desde > >su > >misma gestaci?n. Y eso no se detiene en 1521, sino que afecta a todos los > >periodos de la historia humana. > > > >Gracias y a seguir bien. > > > >< Carlos Santamarina Novillo --- carlossn at diploma.com > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN Photos es la manera m?s sencilla de compartir e imprimir sus fotos: >http://photos.latam.msn.com/Support/WorldWide.aspx > > _________________________________________________________________ Descargue GRATUITAMENTE MSN Explorer en http://explorer.yupimsn.com/intl.asp. From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Jan 22 17:51:53 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:51:53 -0600 Subject: nobleza azteca In-Reply-To: <3C4D9D871C2.1641LAVOZ@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 09:12 AM 1/22/02 -0800, you wrote: >This is nothing but pure "bombastic verbosity" in Spanish!!! As list owner, allow me to interject a bit of calm. The debate has gone beyond the parameters of scholarly discussion and resulted in attacks aimed at specific persons. If you feel that you have something to contribute to the better understanding of an issue, please go forward. If you wish to attack or criticize a person, this is best done off-line, that is by a message sent directly to the other person and not to the whole list. Please exercise caution in hitting the "Reply" button. J. F. Schwaller John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From edwin at humanityquest.com Tue Jan 22 18:50:54 2002 From: edwin at humanityquest.com (Edwin Rutsch) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:50:54 -0800 Subject: what is Inspiration in Nahuatl Message-ID: Greetings I had posted a call earlier for an article about the Nahuatl word for inspiration. See http://humanityquest.com/Themes/Inspiration/ArticleGuidelines/ No takers yet.. I would like to start a discussion about the Nahuatl word for inspiration. It was suggested that yolchicahua and yollotia refer to inspiration in Nahuatl , see below.. Any comments? edwin ============================ Edwin, I wanted to know whether you refer to inhalation/breathing or the abstract sense- I know that Nahuatl incorporates the word for breath in a variety of senses- the verb meaning "to endure suffering or work hard to subsist/acquire something" is ihiyohuia, literally "to apply one's breath [to something]"(see Karttunen's dictionary 1983). I believe that the word for breath itself can extend to references to ephemeral life energy evidenced by breath. If it was used to refer to expenditure as hardship, semantically there should be a sense in which it is used in an opposite way. But it is the word related to "heart", yolli that becomes a modifier to refer to being incited, excited or inspired to act. yolchicahua combines yol- with the verb chicahua meaning "to animate or strengthen." This results in the meaning "to incite one or oneself to bravery," which seems pretty close to inspire. In the story of St.Francis in Nahuatl, God inspires Francis using the transitive verb yollotia. Good luck, then, with your project. JOANNA M SANCHEZ ============================ I was meaning the abstract sense of inspiration,- heightened sense of enthusiasm and energy, and sometimes creativity. The focus is not on the actual physical sense of drawing in air, which however does act as a metaphor for the abstract/spiritual sense. Interesting about ihiyohuia. It has a similarity to Aspire, (rough or audible breathing). I think the idea behind this is if your striving for a goal, like in a running race, you would have rough or audible breathing. The Latin root word spirare forms the base of other English words, such as; aspire (rough or audible breathing), conspire (breathe together), expire (breathe out), perspire (breathe through), transpire (breathe across) and spirit (breath of life). Yollotia sounds like it would then be Divine inspiration. edwin ============================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eherrera at metadata.com.mx Tue Jan 22 18:58:35 2002 From: eherrera at metadata.com.mx (Ernesto Herrera L.) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:58:35 -0600 Subject: this list, professionalism and human emotions In-Reply-To: <004301c1a365$05da46e0$55bee994@dcwright> Message-ID: Estimados colegas, Carlos and Elizabeth: The fact that, undoubtedly, both of your arguments deserve careful and unbiased consideration (if we are ever to move forward in the resolution of such debate) notwithstanding, it seems to me that they may fall somewhat outside the main purpose of this list, which is, AFAIK, to share knowledge about the nahuatl language and culture. Please do not misinterpret me, as a mexican citizen (using English as an international language, not because of an anglocentric point of view) who lives in Mexico City, I am deeply interested in, and affected by, the topic you bring out. I can hardly walk 100 mts. in any direction from where I am currently typing this message, before I encounter one of the many millions of people of indian ethnias who live a miserably life, in all cases devoid of honor, ilusions, hope, opportunities, adequate education, and personal satisfaction, ...and frequently of food, medical attention, and adequate shelter and clothing. If you kindly allow me, I will go against my own advise (back in the first paragraph) and present some comments on the topic, in order to clarify why it may be that it brings such an emotional reaction in otherwise objective and professional individuals as both Carlos (an Spaniard) and Elizabeth (a Mexican) undoubtely are. There is a point in the arguments that it is time for mexicans to face the fact that *most* of us are, at least, half Spanish and we should learn to appreciate that if we are ever to raise our self-steem. It *is* a fact that the Spanish culture has contributed valuable things to the world, and there are more than a few reasons to be proud of such a heritage. Nevertheless, it is also well past the time that we, and the Spaniards, and the rest of the concerned world (both popular and academic) unbiasedly recognize the facts of the conquest as they actually were and not, as has been overwhelmingly the case, in a "simplistic" and, by now, "boring" manner of doing human history. And this implies the recognition that, among many other things, Cort?s did *not* "beat" the aztecs (I'm using this controversial term so as not to refer exclusively to the mexicah, be them tenochcah or tlaltelolcah, or any other concrete anahuac altepetl) by "cunning" strategy and "glorious" display of courage with the help of "only" 500 or so men. Instead, he accomplished this by: 1) a series of cowardly massacres *deliberately* planned and inflicted on unarmed and unexpecting human beings(at Cholollan's and Tenochtitlan's Plazas Mayores); the killing at Tenochtitlan, particularly, had the effect of substantialy and significanlty reducing the military leadership of the mexicah. 2) by commiting the despeakable act of sequestering the top rulers of the land where he had landed, who until that moment had had nothing but attentions and presents for him and his "King"; having their absolute ruler being imprisonned in his own house by his own guests, effectively disabled the mexicah organization. It was not until Motecuhzoma was killed, by the Spaniards themselves upon realizing that he no longer was useful since the folk would no longer obey his orders to refrain from attacking the Spanish-Tlaxcallan coalition, but his death could be useful since it would involve long and elaborated funerary rites that could keep their now enemies busy while they fled the city) that the remaining mexicah, unhindered by the moral restriction of directly causing the death of his beloved rulers, was finally able to assemble some resistance. 3) by eventually (machiavellicaly, but very effectively it must be admitted) enlisting the help of practically every other nahuatl altepetl in his war against the mexicah; it must not be forgotten that, in the end, the mexicah people were fighting agains their very, very close relatives (cousins, in-laws, even half siblings) when they fought against the people of the former acolhua and tepaneca empires. 4) contrary to what is the traditional, unexamined, simplistic general opinion, it was the *mexicah* who were grossly *outnumbered* in the vast majority of their battles against the Spanish-Tlaxcallan (and later Spanish-Tlaxcallan-Huexotzinca-Chalca-Acolhua-Tepaneca) coalition. 4) and, most important of all, by a dramatically effective (if absolutely unintended) *biological* warfare that eventually killed millions of people, but that at the moment of the siege of Tenochtitlan and Tlaltelolco had the immediate effect of eliminating any effective resistance, such as the one attempted, valiantly and effectively while it lasted, by Cuitlahuac. By the time Cuauhtemoc gained command, there was no longer a chance of successfully defending the island cities with the possible exception of enlisting the help of their old adversaries, the Pur?pecha. Unfortunately, the Pur?pecha ruler died at that moment, probably killed also by the diseases brought by the Spaniards (Cort?s, if anything, was a very lucky guy, for he was blessed with favor even from the hands of his enemies, as evidence points out that the diseases that so effectively helped him were brought by some people in the Narvaez party), and was succeeded by his feeble-minded son who refused to help Cuauhtemoc and, ultimately, suffered the same fate as him, only that he was tied to a running horse to be dismembered instead of being dishonorably hanged from a tree deep in the Chiapanecan jungle). Furthermore, human sacrifices (whether or not they were made, and whatever quantities of people were involved in case that they actually happened in the manner related by the conquerors and early chroniclers) taken aside, the fact is that there was in effect a magnificent civilization with hundreds of cities and elaborate social institutions in this very same valley before the Spaniards (we?) came and now it is gone. Think about the loss for the world if the same thing had happened to another distinctive non-western culture, say, Japan. Well, it seems to me, that the loss of the Aztec civilization is arguably comparable. There were, literally, millions of people living in the valley of Mexico in 1520; the Spanish-speaking Mexico City, although today again among the most populated urban areas in the world, was not to have that same number of inhabitants for the next 400 years... and it is worth to keep in mind that it had taken the mexicah only 200 years to create their Tenochtitlan and Tlaltelolco. Today, I look out at the window, the lake gone, the sky no longer blue, and most of what I see is an unplanned, mostly dirty city, with ugly buildings, spread like a rash alongside the otrora beautiful hills. Clearly, for me at least, a view that blames the Spaniards for every bad cultural trait that may be generalized over the current mexican population, is not only simplistic but puerile. However, taken from an unbiased, objective, statistical point of view, the observation that very much the same cultural and character traits are shared by all the countries conquered by the Spaniards, inevitably leads one to consider the fact that an explanation involving those cultural traits as being present in the original invaders is likely to be in more accordance with Occam's Razor principle than one involving the independent evolution of such traits in a multitude of lands with vastly different underlying social and genetical substrates. Please note that I am not making any moral judgement on the traits themselves. Also not to be forgotten is that even though the Arabs remained in Spain for *700* years, and undoubtedly brought high culture and refinement to that land, the original Spaniars, certainly now mixed (linguistically and genetically) with their former conquerors, won it back. As I said before, my intention here has not been to enter into an argument that will, in all probability, not take anybody anywhere, and which certainly does not belong in this list; but to respectfully attempt to convey, to whoever this may be of concern or interest, why the resolution of the internal conflict that pervades our heritage is far from easy for us mexicans. And I, like Elizabeth probably, and like the rest of the 100 million or so human beings that populate this land now called Estados Unidos Mexicanos cannot run away from this conflict anymore. It is in further understanding that we may find a truly human solution to this problem. Such is the value of this list. Thank you for your patience reading this quite long posting. Ernesto Herrera Legorreta Director of Business Intelligence Metadata SA Mexico DF -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu]En nombre de Elisabeth Curiel Enviado el: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 10:23 Para: carlossn at diploma.com CC: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu Asunto: Re: nobleza azteca Carlos Santamar?a: Entre toda tu bara?nta de disertaciones pretenciosas con que me apabullaste, no entendi qu? quisiste decir exactamente. ?Etnocentrismo? No, no no. Los tiempos evolucionan. Te pondr? un ejemplo: En tiempos de mi trisabuela (hace m?s de 80 a?os), decirle "macho" a un hombre, era el mayor halago que se le podr?a decir. Si yo le digo eso a un hombre hoy, me fulmina con la mirada. Y por supuesto que lo que hicieron los colonizadores del Nuevo Mundo fue muy influenciante, pero ?qu? se le hace compadre! Los reyes espa?oles se cansaron de redactar c?dular, nombrar visitadores, etc., para vigilar que sus vasallos obedecieran sus ordenanzas y que no terminaran con los naturales del pais como hicieron con los de la Espa?ola; y nada que los ambiciosos colonizadores continuaron haciendo esclavos, rob?ndoles sus "sementeras", herr?ndoles las mejillas como a animales, creando encomiendas, y muchas lindezas m?s. ?Etnocentrismo? ni siquiera tienes idea de lo que dices. Y respecto a los Anales de Cuauhtitlan, que fueron rescatadas por don Fernando de Alba, mi comentario fue sobre la inexactitud de la traducci?n que hizo Primo Feliciano Velazquez, un nahuatlato, quien indudablemente estaba fuertemente influenciada por los motivos mencionados en mi carta, y de los cuales haces mofa con tanta gracia. Te pondr? un ejemplo obvio: noto que el traductor, un descendiente de nobles, traduce "nopiltzin", como "mi hijo", al referirse a Quetzalc?uatl, cuando los "demonios" van a enga?arlo, y no lo traduce como "nuestro pr?ncipe", como deber?a ser m?s propio al dirigirse a un rey de la altura del Gemelo Precioso. Por supuesto, que nopiltzin podr?a traducirse como mi hijo, pero no en este caso, digo, soy un poco lerda y puedo equivocarme. ?Acaso en la antiguedad, cuando se presentaba un extra?o ante un rey, le llamaba "mi hijito"? Si es as?, por favor cita fuentes. Texto citado: "Quilhui nopiltzin tlamacazqui ca nimomacehual ompanihuitzin nonohualcatepetl itzintlan maxicmottili in monacayotzin, niman cenmacac in Tetzcatl quilhui maxi miximati maxi mottanopiltzin ? ca ompa tonneciz in tetzcatl." Primo Feliciano traduce: "Aqu?l respondi?: “Hijo m?o, sacerdote, yo soy tu vasallo; vengo de la falda de Nonohualcat?petl; mira se?or, tu cuerpo. Luego le dio el espejo y le dijo: “Mirate y con?cete, hijo mio; que has de aparecer en el espejo.” Lisita Curiel PS (Lo del diminutivo es etno-egocentrismo eh?) >From: Carlos Santamarina Novillo >To: Elisabeth Curiel , nahuatl-l at mrs.umn.edu >Subject: Re: la nobleza azteca >Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:31:21 +0100 > > >Elisabeth Curiel ha escrito: > > > Desafortunadamente, la Inquisici?n, la evoluci?n cultural natural de los > > tiempos, el desconocimiento de los antiguos secretos sagrados del > > sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e impresionar a los buenos reyes >espa?oles, > > y muchos otros factores m?s, distorsionaron la informaci?n que nos >dejaron > > los historiadores precortesianos, y ahora nos obligan (como las >cocineras > > que sacan los negritos del arroz) a buscar cuidadosamente las verdades >entre > > todos aquellos escritos y fuentes de los que podemos valernos para >adquirir > > conocimiento sobre la civilizaci?n, la religi?n y la lengua de los >antiguos. > >Analicemos-interpretemos el texto. > >Hay un protagonista central: "la informaci?n que nos dejaron los >historiadores precortesianos" >que sufre la acci?n de un verbo: "fue distorsionada"; >y una serie de factores causantes de la negativa acci?n de ese verbo: >"la >Inquisici?n, la evoluci?n natural de los tiempos, el desconocimiento de los >antiguos secretos sagrados del sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e >impresionar a >los buenos reyes espa?oles, etc." > Lo anterior nos obliga -a los historiadores modernos- a tratar de >desandar >aquel proceso para recuperar "las verdades". No cabe duda, entonces de la >identificaci?n que la autora lleva a cabo entre aquel protagonista central >y >este ?ltimo objetivo actual, es decir, entre "la informaci?n que nos >dejaron los >historiadores precortesianos" y "las verdades". > > Subyace una interpretaci?n maniquea y simplista -desgraciadamente >todav?a muy >extendida en M?xico- que identifica verdad, legitimidad, justicia con los >aqu? >llamados "precortesianos", mientras a los espa?oles corresponden las >"virtudes" >opuestas. Se dir?a que fueron los espa?oles los que introdujeron en >Mesoam?rica >la mentira y las versiones historiogr?ficas asociadas al poder. Manida, >simplista, maniquea y aburrida visi?n de la historia humana. > Las fuentes ind?genas, como cualquier otra, han de ser sometidas a >cr?tica >para aprender a reconocer las versiones interesadas que de su propia >historia >dieron las ?lites ind?genas. Cualquiera que est? introducido en el tema >conoce >el etnocentrismo caracter?stico de la historiograf?a ind?gena, y los Anales >de >Cuauhtitlan son un ejemplo destacado. Adem?s, siendo la azteca una sociedad >estratificada, con clases o estamentos diferenciados, no sorprende que la >historia estuviera al servicio del poder, que Itzc?atl mandara quemar los >viejos >"papeles pintados" y reescribir la historia a la mayor gloria de los nuevos >se?ores. S?lo citar las fuentes derivadas de la llamada "Cr?nica X" o la >obra de >Fdo. de Alva Ixtlilx?chitl es ya referirse a parcialidad interesada, >etnocentrismo y tendenciosidad. > Todo lo anterior s?lo viene a concluir que la lucha del historiador >moderno >en b?squeda de la verdad ha de tener en cuenta todos los "estratos de >tergiversaci?n" y subjetividad que las fuentes han venido atravesando desde >su >misma gestaci?n. Y eso no se detiene en 1521, sino que afecta a todos los >periodos de la historia humana. > >Gracias y a seguir bien. > >< Carlos Santamarina Novillo --- carlossn at diploma.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From edwin at humanityquest.com Tue Jan 22 19:43:06 2002 From: edwin at humanityquest.com (Edwin Rutsch) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:43:06 -0800 Subject: what is Inspiration in Nahuatl Message-ID: I also received this about inspiration in Nahuatl. " hi!, my name is cris, from Mexico. I what I can tell you now, about what you need, there is a book called "Pensamiento musical" (musical thinking-?-) author: Carlos Chavez. He speak about the musical inspiration and the creativity in that musicians. the difference between inspirations and capacity creative. This book originally was a conference given in New York, it became a book some years later. I will try to get you some native references about the theme. try to get the book "Trece poetas del mundo nuhatl" (thirteen poets in the nahuatl world) author Miguel Le?n-Portilla. I don't know if you can get it in English, but try to get it. Is all for now, good luck " edwin Inspiration Project http://humanityquest.com/Themes/Inspiration/ArticleGuidelines/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eherrera at metadata.com.mx Tue Jan 22 19:51:14 2002 From: eherrera at metadata.com.mx (Ernesto Herrera L.) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:51:14 -0600 Subject: the purpose of this list In-Reply-To: <002CEEC2CC59F547BC72B15C1234486405C29D@leo.humanityquest.com> Message-ID: (I apologize for the inconvenience if by mistake I have sent this posting twice) Estimados colegas, Carlos and Elizabeth: The fact that, undoubtedly, both of your arguments deserve careful and unbiased consideration (if we are ever to move forward in the resolution of such debate) notwithstanding, it seems to me that they may fall somewhat outside the main purpose of this list, which is, AFAIK, to share knowledge about the nahuatl language and culture. Please do not misinterpret me, as a mexican citizen (using English as an international language, not because of an anglocentric point of view) who lives in Mexico City, I am deeply interested in, and affected by, the topic you bring out. I can hardly walk 100 mts. in any direction from where I am currently typing this message, before I encounter one of the many millions of people of indian ethnias who live a miserably life, in all cases devoid of honor, ilusions, hope, opportunities, adequate education, and personal satisfaction, ...and frequently of food, medical attention, and adequate shelter and clothing. If you kindly allow me, I will go against my own advise (back in the first paragraph) and present some comments on the topic, in order to clarify why it may be that it brings such an emotional reaction in otherwise objective and professional individuals as both Carlos (an Spaniard) and Elizabeth (a Mexican) undoubtely are. There is a point in the arguments that it is time for mexicans to face the fact that *most* of us are, at least, half Spanish and we should learn to appreciate that if we are ever to raise our self-steem. It *is* a fact that the Spanish culture has contributed valuable things to the world, and there are more than a few reasons to be proud of such a heritage. Nevertheless, it is also well past the time that we, and the Spaniards, and the rest of the concerned world (both popular and academic) unbiasedly recognize the facts of the conquest as they actually were and not, as has been overwhelmingly the case, in a "simplistic" and, by now, "boring" manner of doing human history. And this implies the recognition that, among many other things, Cortes did *not* "beat" the aztecs (I'm using this controversial term so as not to refer exclusively to the mexicah, be them tenochcah or tlaltelolcah, or any other concrete anahuac altepetl) by "cunning" strategy and "glorious" display of courage with the help of "only" 500 or so men. Instead, he accomplished this by: 1) a series of cowardly massacres *deliberately* planned and inflicted on unarmed and unexpecting human beings(at Cholollan's and Tenochtitlan's Plazas Mayores); the killing at Tenochtitlan, particularly, had the effect of substantialy and significanlty reducing the military leadership of the mexicah. 2) by commiting the despeakable act of sequestering the top rulers of the land where he had landed, who until that moment had had nothing but attentions and presents for him and his "King"; having their absolute ruler being imprisonned in his own house by his own guests, effectively disabled the mexicah organization. It was not until Motecuhzoma was killed, by the Spaniards themselves upon realizing that he no longer was useful since the folk would no longer obey his orders to refrain from attacking the Spanish-Tlaxcallan coalition, but his death could be useful since it would involve long and elaborated funerary rites that could keep their now enemies busy while they fled the city) that the remaining mexicah, unhindered by the moral restriction of directly causing the death of his beloved rulers, was finally able to assemble some resistance. 3) by eventually (machiavellicaly, but very effectively it must be admitted) enlisting the help of practically every other nahuatl altepetl in his war against the mexicah; it must not be forgotten that, in the end, the mexicah people were fighting agains their very, very close relatives (cousins, in-laws, even half siblings) when they fought against the people of the former acolhua and tepaneca empires. 4) contrary to what is the traditional, unexamined, simplistic general opinion, it was the *mexicah* who were grossly *outnumbered* in the vast majority of their battles against the Spanish-Tlaxcallan (and later Spanish-Tlaxcallan-Huexotzinca-Chalca-Acolhua-Tepaneca) coalition. 4) and, most important of all, by a dramatically effective (if absolutely unintended) *biological* warfare that eventually killed millions of people, but that at the moment of the siege of Tenochtitlan and Tlaltelolco had the immediate effect of eliminating any effective resistance, such as the one attempted, valiantly and effectively while it lasted, by Cuitlahuac. By the time Cuauhtemoc gained command, there was no longer a chance of successfully defending the island cities with the possible exception of enlisting the help of their old adversaries, the Purepecha. Unfortunately, the Purepecha ruler died at that moment, probably killed also by the diseases brought by the Spaniards (Cortes, if anything, was a very lucky guy, for he was blessed with favor even from the hands of his enemies, as evidence points out that the diseases that so effectively helped him were brought by some people in the Narvaez party), and was succeeded by his feeble-minded son who refused to help Cuauhtemoc and, ultimately, suffered the same fate as him, only that he was tied to a running horse to be dismembered instead of being dishonorably hanged from a tree deep in the Chiapanecan jungle). Furthermore, human sacrifices (whether or not they were made, and whatever quantities of people were involved in case that they actually happened in the manner related by the conquerors and early chroniclers) taken aside, the fact is that there was in effect a magnificent civilization with hundreds of cities and elaborate social institutions in this very same valley before the Spaniards (we?) came and now it is gone. Think about the loss for the world if the same thing had happened to another distinctive non-western culture, say, Japan. Well, it seems to me, that the loss of the Aztec civilization is arguably comparable. There were, literally, millions of people living in the valley of Mexico in 1520; the Spanish-speaking Mexico City, although today again among the most populated urban areas in the world, was not to have that same number of inhabitants for the next 400 years... and it is worth to keep in mind that it had taken the mexicah only 200 years to create their Tenochtitlan and Tlaltelolco. Today, I look out at the window, the lake gone, the sky no longer blue, and most of what I see is an unplanned, mostly dirty city, with ugly buildings, spread like a rash alongside the otrora beautiful hills. Clearly, for me at least, a view that blames the Spaniards for every bad cultural trait that may be generalized over the current mexican population, is not only simplistic but puerile. However, taken from an unbiased, objective, statistical point of view, the observation that very much the same cultural and character traits are shared by all the countries conquered by the Spaniards, inevitably leads one to consider the fact that an explanation involving those cultural traits as being present in the original invaders is likely to be in more accordance with Occam's Razor principle than one involving the independent evolution of such traits in a multitude of lands with vastly different underlying social and genetical substrates. Please note that I am not making any moral judgement on the traits themselves. Also not to be forgotten is that even though the Arabs remained in Spain for *700* years, and undoubtedly brought high culture and refinement to that land, the original Spaniars, certainly now mixed (linguistically and genetically) with their former conquerors, won it back. As I said before, my intention here has not been to enter into an argument that will, in all probability, not take anybody anywhere, and which certainly does not belong in this list; but to respectfully attempt to convey, to whoever this may be of concern or interest, why the resolution of the internal conflict that pervades our heritage is far from easy for us mexicans. And I, like Elizabeth probably, and like the rest of the 100 million or so human beings that populate this land now called Estados Unidos Mexicanos cannot run away from this conflict anymore. It is in further understanding that we may find a truly human solution to this problem. Such is the value of this list. Thank you for your patience reading this quite long posting. Ernesto Herrera Legorreta Director of Business Intelligence Metadata SA Mexico DF -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu]En nombre de Elisabeth Curiel Enviado el: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 10:23 Para: carlossn at diploma.com CC: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu Asunto: Re: nobleza azteca Carlos Santamaria: Entre toda tu baraunta de disertaciones pretenciosas con que me apabullaste, no entendi que quisiste decir exactamente. ?Etnocentrismo? No, no no. Los tiempos evolucionan. Te pondre un ejemplo: En tiempos de mi trisabuela (hace mas de 80 anos), decirle "macho" a un hombre, era el mayor halago que se le podria decir. Si yo le digo eso a un hombre hoy, me fulmina con la mirada. Y por supuesto que lo que hicieron los colonizadores del Nuevo Mundo fue muy influenciante, pero !que se le hace compadre! Los reyes espanoles se cansaron de redactar cedular, nombrar visitadores, etc., para vigilar que sus vasallos obedecieran sus ordenanzas y que no terminaran con los naturales del pais como hicieron con los de la Espanola; y nada que los ambiciosos colonizadores continuaron haciendo esclavos, robandoles sus "sementeras", herrandoles las mejillas como a animales, creando encomiendas, y muchas lindezas mas. ?Etnocentrismo? ni siquiera tienes idea de lo que dices. Y respecto a los Anales de Cuauhtitlan, que fueron rescatadas por don Fernando de Alba, mi comentario fue sobre la inexactitud de la traduccion que hizo Primo Feliciano Velazquez, un nahuatlato, quien indudablemente estaba fuertemente influenciada por los motivos mencionados en mi carta, y de los cuales haces mofa con tanta gracia. Te pondre un ejemplo obvio: noto que el traductor, un descendiente de nobles, traduce "nopiltzin", como "mi hijo", al referirse a Quetzalcouatl, cuando los "demonios" van a enganarlo, y no lo traduce como "nuestro principe", como deberia ser mas propio al dirigirse a un rey de la altura del Gemelo Precioso. Por supuesto, que nopiltzin podria traducirse como mi hijo, pero no en este caso, digo, soy un poco lerda y puedo equivocarme. ?Acaso en la antiguedad, cuando se presentaba un extrano ante un rey, le llamaba "mi hijito"? Si es asi, por favor cita fuentes. Texto citado: "Quilhui nopiltzin tlamacazqui ca nimomacehual ompanihuitzin nonohualcatepetl itzintlan maxicmottili in monacayotzin, niman cenmacac in Tetzcatl quilhui maxi miximati maxi mottanopiltzin o ca ompa tonneciz in tetzcatl." Primo Feliciano traduce: "Aquel respondio: “Hijo mio, sacerdote, yo soy tu vasallo; vengo de la falda de Nonohualcatepetl; mira senor, tu cuerpo. Luego le dio el espejo y le dijo: “Mirate y conocete, hijo mio; que has de aparecer en el espejo.” Lisita Curiel PS (Lo del diminutivo es etno-egocentrismo eh?) >From: Carlos Santamarina Novillo >To: Elisabeth Curiel , nahuatl-l at mrs.umn.edu >Subject: Re: la nobleza azteca >Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:31:21 +0100 > > >Elisabeth Curiel ha escrito: > > > Desafortunadamente, la Inquisicion, la evolucion cultural natural de los > > tiempos, el desconocimiento de los antiguos secretos sagrados del > > sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e impresionar a los buenos reyes >espanoles, > > y muchos otros factores mas, distorsionaron la informacion que nos >dejaron > > los historiadores precortesianos, y ahora nos obligan (como las >cocineras > > que sacan los negritos del arroz) a buscar cuidadosamente las verdades >entre > > todos aquellos escritos y fuentes de los que podemos valernos para >adquirir > > conocimiento sobre la civilizacion, la religion y la lengua de los >antiguos. > >Analicemos-interpretemos el texto. > >Hay un protagonista central: "la informacion que nos dejaron los >historiadores precortesianos" >que sufre la accion de un verbo: "fue distorsionada"; >y una serie de factores causantes de la negativa accion de ese verbo: >"la >Inquisicion, la evolucion natural de los tiempos, el desconocimiento de los >antiguos secretos sagrados del sacerdocio, el deseo de agradar e >impresionar a >los buenos reyes espanoles, etc." > Lo anterior nos obliga -a los historiadores modernos- a tratar de >desandar >aquel proceso para recuperar "las verdades". No cabe duda, entonces de la >identificacion que la autora lleva a cabo entre aquel protagonista central >y >este ultimo objetivo actual, es decir, entre "la informacion que nos >dejaron los >historiadores precortesianos" y "las verdades". > > Subyace una interpretacion maniquea y simplista -desgraciadamente >todavia muy >extendida en Mexico- que identifica verdad, legitimidad, justicia con los >aqui >llamados "precortesianos", mientras a los espanoles corresponden las >"virtudes" >opuestas. Se diria que fueron los espanoles los que introdujeron en >Mesoamerica >la mentira y las versiones historiograficas asociadas al poder. Manida, >simplista, maniquea y aburrida vision de la historia humana. > Las fuentes indigenas, como cualquier otra, han de ser sometidas a >critica >para aprender a reconocer las versiones interesadas que de su propia >historia >dieron las elites indigenas. Cualquiera que este introducido en el tema >conoce >el etnocentrismo caracteristico de la historiografia indigena, y los Anales >de >Cuauhtitlan son un ejemplo destacado. Ademas, siendo la azteca una sociedad >estratificada, con clases o estamentos diferenciados, no sorprende que la >historia estuviera al servicio del poder, que Itzcoatl mandara quemar los >viejos >"papeles pintados" y reescribir la historia a la mayor gloria de los nuevos >senores. Solo citar las fuentes derivadas de la llamada "Cronica X" o la >obra de >Fdo. de Alva Ixtlilxochitl es ya referirse a parcialidad interesada, >etnocentrismo y tendenciosidad. > Todo lo anterior solo viene a concluir que la lucha del historiador >moderno >en busqueda de la verdad ha de tener en cuenta todos los "estratos de >tergiversacion" y subjetividad que las fuentes han venido atravesando desde >su >misma gestacion. Y eso no se detiene en 1521, sino que afecta a todos los >periodos de la historia humana. > >Gracias y a seguir bien. > >< Carlos Santamarina Novillo --- carlossn at diploma.com > > From ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu Wed Jan 30 15:54:23 2002 From: ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu (Kevin P Smith) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 07:54:23 -0800 Subject: nocone Message-ID: Dear Nahuatlatos, Can anyone suggest a translation for the term "nocone". It appears in an mid-16th-century document as a gender-specific (female) derogatory appelation. The specific reference describes an Indian noble angrily chastising his sister. Thanks in advance for any suggestions. Best, Kevin Paul Smith Graduate Student University of California Santa Barbara ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at Wed Jan 30 17:43:02 2002 From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:43:02 +0100 Subject: nocone Message-ID: I would suggest no+conetl = mi ni?a, mi muchacha etc ("conetl" refers to young boys/girls but is sometimes also applied to women in general - thus a good exaple for infantilizing strategies in gender categories). Best, Juergen Kevin P Smith schrieb: > Dear Nahuatlatos, > > Can anyone suggest a translation for the term "nocone". It appears in an > mid-16th-century document as a gender-specific (female) derogatory > appelation. The specific reference describes an Indian noble angrily > chastising his sister. > > Thanks in advance for any suggestions. > > Best, > > Kevin Paul Smith > Graduate Student > University of California Santa Barbara > ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu -- Juergen Stowasser Burggasse 114/2/8 A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a Austria tel: 01/ 524 54 60 v 0676/ 398 66 79 http://www.univie.ac.at/meso From cipactonal at starmedia.com Wed Jan 30 16:31:10 2002 From: cipactonal at starmedia.com (cipactonal at starmedia.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 11:31:10 EST Subject: nocone Message-ID: Estimado Dr. Smith: Nocone significa, literalmente, "hijo mio" y esta formado por: conetl, que significa "ni?o, muchacho" pero que al ser antecedido por un prefijo posesivo significa "hijo". En el caso que nos ocupa , la particula posesiva No, es para referise a "mi"; conetl "hijo". Nocone: Hijo mio. Conetl tambien sirve para determinar que algo, generalmente un nimal, es peque?o: mizconetl=gatito; canauhconetl=patito. Reciba un cordial saludo. Ignacio Silva. > > De: Kevin P Smith > Fecha: 30-Ene-2002 10:54 > Para: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu > Asunto: nocone > > Dear Nahuatlatos, > > Can anyone suggest a translation for the term "nocone". It appears in an > mid-16th-century document as a gender-specific (female) derogatory > appelation. The specific reference describes an Indian noble angrily > chastising his sister. > > Thanks in advance for any suggestions. > > Best, > > > Kevin Paul Smith > Graduate Student > University of California Santa Barbara > ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Obt?n gratis tu cuenta de correo en StarMedia Email. ?Reg?strate hoy mismo!. http://www.starmedia.com/email ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Wed Jan 30 17:51:25 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:51:25 -0500 Subject: Hello In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Listeros, I would like to know how in the Nahuatl dialect you know a person greets another person. For that matter, I've never really seen a simple greeting in Classical aside from the 'dawn' form. Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu