From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Jul 1 19:15:01 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:15:01 -0500 Subject: New article Message-ID: Launey, M, "On some causative doublets in Classical Nahuatl" Typological Studies in Language, vol. 48 (2002), 301-318 John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From jsullivan3 at mac.com Wed Jul 10 21:03:21 2002 From: jsullivan3 at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:03:21 -0500 Subject: Two questions from Zacatecas Message-ID: Two questions regarding Classical Nahuatl: 1. In the sentence, "amixpantzinco ninoteilhuia Juan (a abbreviated form of one of the examples from Lockhart's grammar)", "In your (plural) presence, I make a complaint against Juan", how is "Juan" connected to the verb? I see that in Molina, this is the form used. However, in the Jalostotitlan document I am working on, we see "itechcopa timoteilguia yn tovicario", "we make a complaint in relation to our priest." And I believe I have seen this form often. Is there a rule in Nahuatl preventing the use of two postpositions with one verb, and is this why there is nothing connecting Juan to the verb in the first example? 2. Is animacy only a criterion for deciding whether a noun can be pluralized, or is it also a criterion for determining the order and hierarchy of verbal object prefixes. If it is, how does this mesh with the human/non-human distinction mentioned in the rules on pages 171-173 of Campbell and Karttunen's grammar, vol.1, and especially in the specific object prefix slot? John Sullivan From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Jul 12 12:33:05 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 07:33:05 -0500 Subject: Two questions from Zacatecas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, I figured Joe or Fran would respond to this message. Your question #1: As you realize the postpositional elements in your two phrases are not related in the sense that the first speaks of the relationship between the subject of the verb and the whoever "y'all" was, while the second speaks of the relationship between the verb and the person that the verb is talking about. There's nothing that would prohibit postpositions with different referents to appear in the same phrase. *Amixpantzinco ninoteilhuia itechcopa in Juan sounds good to me. (Course, at some point Joe and Fran will come in and sort all this out, but I'll keep sticking my neck out here for a cleaner cut.) What is curious about your two phrases is that the verb 'complain' seems to express a different grammatical nature in each; seems we are seeing two ways of expressing the same idea. The first: '(It-is-before-y'all) I-am-complaining it-is-Juan' The second: 'it-is-against-him we-are-complaining it-is-the-padre' Your question #2: Occasionally, rarely, someone will create an utterance with a "semantic" hierarchy that is traditionally not grammatical by placing an object pronoun with a **human** referent (not *animate* referent) over a object pronoun with a **non-human** referent (not **inanimate** referent. In other words, the traditional, expected order of indirect object over direct object and secondary indirect object over primary indirect object breaks down in favor of a human/non-human consideration. This doesn't happen often. Cheers, Michael McCafferty ========================= On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: > Two questions regarding Classical Nahuatl: > > 1. In the sentence, "amixpantzinco ninoteilhuia Juan (a abbreviated form of > one of the examples from Lockhart's grammar)", "In your (plural) presence, > I make a complaint against Juan", how is "Juan" connected to the verb? I see > that in Molina, this is the form used. However, in the Jalostotitlan > document I am working on, we see "itechcopa timoteilguia yn tovicario", "we > make a complaint in relation to our priest." And I believe I have seen this > form often. Is there a rule in Nahuatl preventing the use of two > postpositions with one verb, and is this why there is nothing connecting > Juan to the verb in the first example? > > 2. Is animacy only a criterion for deciding whether a noun can be > pluralized, or is it also a criterion for determining the order and > hierarchy of verbal object prefixes. If it is, how does this mesh with the > human/non-human distinction mentioned in the rules on pages 171-173 of > Campbell and Karttunen's grammar, vol.1, and especially in the specific > object prefix slot? > John Sullivan > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu From jsullivan3 at mac.com Fri Jul 12 23:51:06 2002 From: jsullivan3 at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:51:06 -0500 Subject: Two questions from Zacatecas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Michael, Example 1: I realize the postpositions are dealing with two different relationships. What I am concerned about is the fact that the grammatical relationship between the verb and one of its objects, "Juan", is different in each sentence. Actually, this grammatical relationship doesn't even appear to exist in the first example: the two object prefix slots allowed for the applicative verb "ilhuia" are occupied by "no" and "te", and yet, another object, "Juan", is present in the sentence. Reexamining Molinia, I see that there are two relevent possibilities for "teilhuia": "ninoteilhuia", "quejarse a la justicia", and "niteteilhuia", "acusar a otro". If we are going to use the example with the reflexive pronoun (as is the case in the example that started this discussion), it would seem to me that there would be two possibilities for mentioning the person against whom the complaint is lodged: "niteteteilhuilia" (and I have never seen this before), or "itechcopa ninoteilhuia Juan" (I believe this structure is common). Example 2: I may be wrong, but I don't recall seeing in any of the grammars an explanation for object prefix order based on the indirect/direct object distinction. I know it works out this way most of the time because indirect objects tend to be human, but if as a matter of fact the order is based on the human/non human distinction or on the animacy hierarchy, as Sergio Romero from Tulane commented a while ago, I would like to know. John On 7/12/02 7:33 AM, "Michael Mccafferty" wrote: > John, > I figured Joe or Fran would respond to this message. > > > Your question #1: > > As you realize the postpositional elements in your two phrases are not > related in the sense that the first speaks of the relationship between the > subject of the verb and the whoever "y'all" was, while the second speaks > of the relationship between the verb and the person that the verb is > talking about. There's nothing that would prohibit postpositions with > different referents to appear in the same phrase. *Amixpantzinco > ninoteilhuia itechcopa in Juan sounds good to me. (Course, at some point > Joe and Fran will come in and sort all this out, but I'll keep sticking my > neck out here for a cleaner cut.) > > What is curious about your two phrases is that the verb 'complain' seems > to express a different grammatical nature in each; seems we are > seeing two ways of expressing the same idea. > > The first: '(It-is-before-y'all) I-am-complaining it-is-Juan' > > > The second: 'it-is-against-him we-are-complaining it-is-the-padre' > > > Your question #2: > > Occasionally, rarely, someone will create an utterance with a "semantic" > hierarchy that is traditionally not grammatical by placing an object > pronoun with a **human** referent (not *animate* referent) over a > object pronoun with a **non-human** referent (not **inanimate** referent. > In other words, the traditional, expected order of indirect object over > direct object and secondary indirect object over primary indirect object > breaks down in favor of a human/non-human consideration. This doesn't > happen often. > > Cheers, > > Michael McCafferty > > ========================= > > > On Wed, 10 > Jul 2002, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: > >> Two questions regarding Classical Nahuatl: >> >> 1. In the sentence, "amixpantzinco ninoteilhuia Juan (a abbreviated form of >> one of the examples from Lockhart's grammar)", "In your (plural) presence, >> I make a complaint against Juan", how is "Juan" connected to the verb? I see >> that in Molina, this is the form used. However, in the Jalostotitlan >> document I am working on, we see "itechcopa timoteilguia yn tovicario", "we >> make a complaint in relation to our priest." And I believe I have seen this >> form often. Is there a rule in Nahuatl preventing the use of two >> postpositions with one verb, and is this why there is nothing connecting >> Juan to the verb in the first example? >> >> 2. Is animacy only a criterion for deciding whether a noun can be >> pluralized, or is it also a criterion for determining the order and >> hierarchy of verbal object prefixes. If it is, how does this mesh with the >> human/non-human distinction mentioned in the rules on pages 171-173 of >> Campbell and Karttunen's grammar, vol.1, and especially in the specific >> object prefix slot? >> John Sullivan >> >> >> > > > Michael McCafferty > 307 Memorial Hall > Indiana University > Bloomington, Indiana > 47405 > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Jul 13 11:18:25 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 06:18:25 -0500 Subject: Two questions from Zacatecas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, John, I'm acutely aware of what you are talking about in example numero uno, and i anticipated, though i had not researched it, some sort of semantic distinction. I don't have the answer. But -tetete- does exist, as does -tlatlatla-. :) As for example 2, poke around in Andrews. I believe he discusses the relationship between the object pronouns and what takes precedence. He may even discuss the rare case of human over non-human. I also think Joe and Fran discuss object pronouns in their gramma. Best, Michael On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: > Hi Michael, > Example 1: I realize the postpositions are dealing with two different > relationships. What I am concerned about is the fact that the grammatical > relationship between the verb and one of its objects, "Juan", is different > in each sentence. Actually, this grammatical relationship doesn't even > appear to exist in the first example: the two object prefix slots allowed > for the applicative verb "ilhuia" are occupied by "no" and "te", and yet, > another object, "Juan", is present in the sentence. Reexamining Molinia, I > see that there are two relevent possibilities for "teilhuia": > "ninoteilhuia", "quejarse a la justicia", and "niteteilhuia", "acusar a > otro". If we are going to use the example with the reflexive pronoun (as is > the case in the example that started this discussion), it would seem to me > that there would be two possibilities for mentioning the person against whom > the complaint is lodged: "niteteteilhuilia" (and I have never seen this > before), or "itechcopa ninoteilhuia Juan" (I believe this structure is > common). > Example 2: I may be wrong, but I don't recall seeing in any of the > grammars an explanation for object prefix order based on the indirect/direct > object distinction. I know it works out this way most of the time because > indirect objects tend to be human, but if as a matter of fact the order is > based on the human/non human distinction or on the animacy hierarchy, as > Sergio Romero from Tulane commented a while ago, I would like to know. > John > > On 7/12/02 7:33 AM, "Michael Mccafferty" wrote: > > > John, > > I figured Joe or Fran would respond to this message. > > > > > > Your question #1: > > > > As you realize the postpositional elements in your two phrases are not > > related in the sense that the first speaks of the relationship between the > > subject of the verb and the whoever "y'all" was, while the second speaks > > of the relationship between the verb and the person that the verb is > > talking about. There's nothing that would prohibit postpositions with > > different referents to appear in the same phrase. *Amixpantzinco > > ninoteilhuia itechcopa in Juan sounds good to me. (Course, at some point > > Joe and Fran will come in and sort all this out, but I'll keep sticking my > > neck out here for a cleaner cut.) > > > > What is curious about your two phrases is that the verb 'complain' seems > > to express a different grammatical nature in each; seems we are > > seeing two ways of expressing the same idea. > > > > The first: '(It-is-before-y'all) I-am-complaining it-is-Juan' > > > > > > The second: 'it-is-against-him we-are-complaining it-is-the-padre' > > > > > > Your question #2: > > > > Occasionally, rarely, someone will create an utterance with a "semantic" > > hierarchy that is traditionally not grammatical by placing an object > > pronoun with a **human** referent (not *animate* referent) over a > > object pronoun with a **non-human** referent (not **inanimate** referent. > > In other words, the traditional, expected order of indirect object over > > direct object and secondary indirect object over primary indirect object > > breaks down in favor of a human/non-human consideration. This doesn't > > happen often. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Michael McCafferty > > > > ========================= > > > > > > On Wed, 10 > > Jul 2002, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: > > > >> Two questions regarding Classical Nahuatl: > >> > >> 1. In the sentence, "amixpantzinco ninoteilhuia Juan (a abbreviated form of > >> one of the examples from Lockhart's grammar)", "In your (plural) presence, > >> I make a complaint against Juan", how is "Juan" connected to the verb? I see > >> that in Molina, this is the form used. However, in the Jalostotitlan > >> document I am working on, we see "itechcopa timoteilguia yn tovicario", "we > >> make a complaint in relation to our priest." And I believe I have seen this > >> form often. Is there a rule in Nahuatl preventing the use of two > >> postpositions with one verb, and is this why there is nothing connecting > >> Juan to the verb in the first example? > >> > >> 2. Is animacy only a criterion for deciding whether a noun can be > >> pluralized, or is it also a criterion for determining the order and > >> hierarchy of verbal object prefixes. If it is, how does this mesh with the > >> human/non-human distinction mentioned in the rules on pages 171-173 of > >> Campbell and Karttunen's grammar, vol.1, and especially in the specific > >> object prefix slot? > >> John Sullivan > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Michael McCafferty > > 307 Memorial Hall > > Indiana University > > Bloomington, Indiana > > 47405 > > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > > > > > > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu "Talking is often a torment for me, and I need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words. C.G. Jung "...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk." Rumi From jsullivan3 at mac.com Sat Jul 13 16:16:58 2002 From: jsullivan3 at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:16:58 -0500 Subject: two questions Message-ID: The discussion developing as a result of my initial questions has been great. However, I think I screwed up on the first one. The complete text from Lockhart, page 42, is: "amixpantzinco in antlatoque ninoteilhuia in Juan Buenaventura mochipa motlapololtitinemi..." It looks like I mistakenly included "Juan Buenaventura" with the first phrase instead of seeing it as the beginning of the second. In this way the first phrase simply refers to the complaint without mentioning whom it concerns. Têchtlapòpolhuîcân. John Sullivan From jsullivan3 at mac.com Tue Jul 16 01:45:11 2002 From: jsullivan3 at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:45:11 -0500 Subject: Manuscripts on the web from Zacatecas Message-ID: Tohuampoyohuan, The Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology (Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C.) is happy to announce that our first digitalized nahuatl manuscript is available for consultation on our website: www.idiez.org.mx Go to the site, and enter our "Virtual Archive" in English or Spanish. Click on "Nochistlán 1652", and then on the document title in English or Spanish and have fun! You can work on the web or download the material. We will be loading more manuscripts soon, as well as audio, video and grammar charts. Please give us your feedback on image resolution, download time, layout, aesthetics, and anything else which might improve the site. John Sullivan, Ph.D. Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Av. Guerrero 227, int. 12 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 89000 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx tel (52-492) 922-1709 fax (52-492) 922-9848 From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue Jul 16 17:57:27 2002 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:57:27 -0500 Subject: =?UNKNOWN?Q?C=F3dices_otom=EDes?= Message-ID: Estimados listeros: Les aviso que recientemente se publicaron, en el sitio Web de Editions Sup-Infor, nuevas versiones paleográficas de los códices otomíes de Huichapan y Jilotepec, así como un cuadro fonético que es útil para trabajar con los múltiples sistemas ortográficos que han han sido usados para transcribir el otomí durante desde el siglo XVI hasta ahora. Los documentos mencionados están a su disposición en http://www.sup-infor.com/navigation.htm, escogiendo la opción TEXTES/otomi. El icono del libro da acceso a una muestra, que sólo incluye el inicio de cada documento. Con el icono de la letra "i" se obtienen documentos introductorios con información acerca de cada manuscrito. Los iconos comprimidos .zip son para bajar la transcripción completa de cada documento, junto con el archivo con información y el cuadro fonético. Para las referencias citadas en el cuadro, hay que hacer clic en el último vínculo de la página de manuscritos otomíes: http://www.sup-infor.com/sources/codex_otomi/Fonemas1.htm. Espero que les sean útiles estos documentos. Estoy a sus órdenes para cualquier comentario o aclaración. Un saludo, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Address: 82-53, Bystrova Ulitsa, Volgograd 400067, Russia Your letters and calls are always welcomed! You can order a free sample copy by mailing your request to: ?Uchitel? Publishing House 82-53 Bystrova Ulitsa Volgograd 400067 Russia From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Jul 1 19:15:01 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:15:01 -0500 Subject: New article Message-ID: Launey, M, "On some causative doublets in Classical Nahuatl" Typological Studies in Language, vol. 48 (2002), 301-318 John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From jsullivan3 at mac.com Wed Jul 10 21:03:21 2002 From: jsullivan3 at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:03:21 -0500 Subject: Two questions from Zacatecas Message-ID: Two questions regarding Classical Nahuatl: 1. In the sentence, "amixpantzinco ninoteilhuia Juan (a abbreviated form of one of the examples from Lockhart's grammar)", "In your (plural) presence, I make a complaint against Juan", how is "Juan" connected to the verb? I see that in Molina, this is the form used. However, in the Jalostotitlan document I am working on, we see "itechcopa timoteilguia yn tovicario", "we make a complaint in relation to our priest." And I believe I have seen this form often. Is there a rule in Nahuatl preventing the use of two postpositions with one verb, and is this why there is nothing connecting Juan to the verb in the first example? 2. Is animacy only a criterion for deciding whether a noun can be pluralized, or is it also a criterion for determining the order and hierarchy of verbal object prefixes. If it is, how does this mesh with the human/non-human distinction mentioned in the rules on pages 171-173 of Campbell and Karttunen's grammar, vol.1, and especially in the specific object prefix slot? John Sullivan From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Fri Jul 12 12:33:05 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 07:33:05 -0500 Subject: Two questions from Zacatecas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, I figured Joe or Fran would respond to this message. Your question #1: As you realize the postpositional elements in your two phrases are not related in the sense that the first speaks of the relationship between the subject of the verb and the whoever "y'all" was, while the second speaks of the relationship between the verb and the person that the verb is talking about. There's nothing that would prohibit postpositions with different referents to appear in the same phrase. *Amixpantzinco ninoteilhuia itechcopa in Juan sounds good to me. (Course, at some point Joe and Fran will come in and sort all this out, but I'll keep sticking my neck out here for a cleaner cut.) What is curious about your two phrases is that the verb 'complain' seems to express a different grammatical nature in each; seems we are seeing two ways of expressing the same idea. The first: '(It-is-before-y'all) I-am-complaining it-is-Juan' The second: 'it-is-against-him we-are-complaining it-is-the-padre' Your question #2: Occasionally, rarely, someone will create an utterance with a "semantic" hierarchy that is traditionally not grammatical by placing an object pronoun with a **human** referent (not *animate* referent) over a object pronoun with a **non-human** referent (not **inanimate** referent. In other words, the traditional, expected order of indirect object over direct object and secondary indirect object over primary indirect object breaks down in favor of a human/non-human consideration. This doesn't happen often. Cheers, Michael McCafferty ========================= On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: > Two questions regarding Classical Nahuatl: > > 1. In the sentence, "amixpantzinco ninoteilhuia Juan (a abbreviated form of > one of the examples from Lockhart's grammar)", "In your (plural) presence, > I make a complaint against Juan", how is "Juan" connected to the verb? I see > that in Molina, this is the form used. However, in the Jalostotitlan > document I am working on, we see "itechcopa timoteilguia yn tovicario", "we > make a complaint in relation to our priest." And I believe I have seen this > form often. Is there a rule in Nahuatl preventing the use of two > postpositions with one verb, and is this why there is nothing connecting > Juan to the verb in the first example? > > 2. Is animacy only a criterion for deciding whether a noun can be > pluralized, or is it also a criterion for determining the order and > hierarchy of verbal object prefixes. If it is, how does this mesh with the > human/non-human distinction mentioned in the rules on pages 171-173 of > Campbell and Karttunen's grammar, vol.1, and especially in the specific > object prefix slot? > John Sullivan > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu From jsullivan3 at mac.com Fri Jul 12 23:51:06 2002 From: jsullivan3 at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:51:06 -0500 Subject: Two questions from Zacatecas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Michael, Example 1: I realize the postpositions are dealing with two different relationships. What I am concerned about is the fact that the grammatical relationship between the verb and one of its objects, "Juan", is different in each sentence. Actually, this grammatical relationship doesn't even appear to exist in the first example: the two object prefix slots allowed for the applicative verb "ilhuia" are occupied by "no" and "te", and yet, another object, "Juan", is present in the sentence. Reexamining Molinia, I see that there are two relevent possibilities for "teilhuia": "ninoteilhuia", "quejarse a la justicia", and "niteteilhuia", "acusar a otro". If we are going to use the example with the reflexive pronoun (as is the case in the example that started this discussion), it would seem to me that there would be two possibilities for mentioning the person against whom the complaint is lodged: "niteteteilhuilia" (and I have never seen this before), or "itechcopa ninoteilhuia Juan" (I believe this structure is common). Example 2: I may be wrong, but I don't recall seeing in any of the grammars an explanation for object prefix order based on the indirect/direct object distinction. I know it works out this way most of the time because indirect objects tend to be human, but if as a matter of fact the order is based on the human/non human distinction or on the animacy hierarchy, as Sergio Romero from Tulane commented a while ago, I would like to know. John On 7/12/02 7:33 AM, "Michael Mccafferty" wrote: > John, > I figured Joe or Fran would respond to this message. > > > Your question #1: > > As you realize the postpositional elements in your two phrases are not > related in the sense that the first speaks of the relationship between the > subject of the verb and the whoever "y'all" was, while the second speaks > of the relationship between the verb and the person that the verb is > talking about. There's nothing that would prohibit postpositions with > different referents to appear in the same phrase. *Amixpantzinco > ninoteilhuia itechcopa in Juan sounds good to me. (Course, at some point > Joe and Fran will come in and sort all this out, but I'll keep sticking my > neck out here for a cleaner cut.) > > What is curious about your two phrases is that the verb 'complain' seems > to express a different grammatical nature in each; seems we are > seeing two ways of expressing the same idea. > > The first: '(It-is-before-y'all) I-am-complaining it-is-Juan' > > > The second: 'it-is-against-him we-are-complaining it-is-the-padre' > > > Your question #2: > > Occasionally, rarely, someone will create an utterance with a "semantic" > hierarchy that is traditionally not grammatical by placing an object > pronoun with a **human** referent (not *animate* referent) over a > object pronoun with a **non-human** referent (not **inanimate** referent. > In other words, the traditional, expected order of indirect object over > direct object and secondary indirect object over primary indirect object > breaks down in favor of a human/non-human consideration. This doesn't > happen often. > > Cheers, > > Michael McCafferty > > ========================= > > > On Wed, 10 > Jul 2002, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: > >> Two questions regarding Classical Nahuatl: >> >> 1. In the sentence, "amixpantzinco ninoteilhuia Juan (a abbreviated form of >> one of the examples from Lockhart's grammar)", "In your (plural) presence, >> I make a complaint against Juan", how is "Juan" connected to the verb? I see >> that in Molina, this is the form used. However, in the Jalostotitlan >> document I am working on, we see "itechcopa timoteilguia yn tovicario", "we >> make a complaint in relation to our priest." And I believe I have seen this >> form often. Is there a rule in Nahuatl preventing the use of two >> postpositions with one verb, and is this why there is nothing connecting >> Juan to the verb in the first example? >> >> 2. Is animacy only a criterion for deciding whether a noun can be >> pluralized, or is it also a criterion for determining the order and >> hierarchy of verbal object prefixes. If it is, how does this mesh with the >> human/non-human distinction mentioned in the rules on pages 171-173 of >> Campbell and Karttunen's grammar, vol.1, and especially in the specific >> object prefix slot? >> John Sullivan >> >> >> > > > Michael McCafferty > 307 Memorial Hall > Indiana University > Bloomington, Indiana > 47405 > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > > From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sat Jul 13 11:18:25 2002 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 06:18:25 -0500 Subject: Two questions from Zacatecas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, John, I'm acutely aware of what you are talking about in example numero uno, and i anticipated, though i had not researched it, some sort of semantic distinction. I don't have the answer. But -tetete- does exist, as does -tlatlatla-. :) As for example 2, poke around in Andrews. I believe he discusses the relationship between the object pronouns and what takes precedence. He may even discuss the rare case of human over non-human. I also think Joe and Fran discuss object pronouns in their gramma. Best, Michael On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: > Hi Michael, > Example 1: I realize the postpositions are dealing with two different > relationships. What I am concerned about is the fact that the grammatical > relationship between the verb and one of its objects, "Juan", is different > in each sentence. Actually, this grammatical relationship doesn't even > appear to exist in the first example: the two object prefix slots allowed > for the applicative verb "ilhuia" are occupied by "no" and "te", and yet, > another object, "Juan", is present in the sentence. Reexamining Molinia, I > see that there are two relevent possibilities for "teilhuia": > "ninoteilhuia", "quejarse a la justicia", and "niteteilhuia", "acusar a > otro". If we are going to use the example with the reflexive pronoun (as is > the case in the example that started this discussion), it would seem to me > that there would be two possibilities for mentioning the person against whom > the complaint is lodged: "niteteteilhuilia" (and I have never seen this > before), or "itechcopa ninoteilhuia Juan" (I believe this structure is > common). > Example 2: I may be wrong, but I don't recall seeing in any of the > grammars an explanation for object prefix order based on the indirect/direct > object distinction. I know it works out this way most of the time because > indirect objects tend to be human, but if as a matter of fact the order is > based on the human/non human distinction or on the animacy hierarchy, as > Sergio Romero from Tulane commented a while ago, I would like to know. > John > > On 7/12/02 7:33 AM, "Michael Mccafferty" wrote: > > > John, > > I figured Joe or Fran would respond to this message. > > > > > > Your question #1: > > > > As you realize the postpositional elements in your two phrases are not > > related in the sense that the first speaks of the relationship between the > > subject of the verb and the whoever "y'all" was, while the second speaks > > of the relationship between the verb and the person that the verb is > > talking about. There's nothing that would prohibit postpositions with > > different referents to appear in the same phrase. *Amixpantzinco > > ninoteilhuia itechcopa in Juan sounds good to me. (Course, at some point > > Joe and Fran will come in and sort all this out, but I'll keep sticking my > > neck out here for a cleaner cut.) > > > > What is curious about your two phrases is that the verb 'complain' seems > > to express a different grammatical nature in each; seems we are > > seeing two ways of expressing the same idea. > > > > The first: '(It-is-before-y'all) I-am-complaining it-is-Juan' > > > > > > The second: 'it-is-against-him we-are-complaining it-is-the-padre' > > > > > > Your question #2: > > > > Occasionally, rarely, someone will create an utterance with a "semantic" > > hierarchy that is traditionally not grammatical by placing an object > > pronoun with a **human** referent (not *animate* referent) over a > > object pronoun with a **non-human** referent (not **inanimate** referent. > > In other words, the traditional, expected order of indirect object over > > direct object and secondary indirect object over primary indirect object > > breaks down in favor of a human/non-human consideration. This doesn't > > happen often. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Michael McCafferty > > > > ========================= > > > > > > On Wed, 10 > > Jul 2002, John Sullivan, Ph.D. wrote: > > > >> Two questions regarding Classical Nahuatl: > >> > >> 1. In the sentence, "amixpantzinco ninoteilhuia Juan (a abbreviated form of > >> one of the examples from Lockhart's grammar)", "In your (plural) presence, > >> I make a complaint against Juan", how is "Juan" connected to the verb? I see > >> that in Molina, this is the form used. However, in the Jalostotitlan > >> document I am working on, we see "itechcopa timoteilguia yn tovicario", "we > >> make a complaint in relation to our priest." And I believe I have seen this > >> form often. Is there a rule in Nahuatl preventing the use of two > >> postpositions with one verb, and is this why there is nothing connecting > >> Juan to the verb in the first example? > >> > >> 2. Is animacy only a criterion for deciding whether a noun can be > >> pluralized, or is it also a criterion for determining the order and > >> hierarchy of verbal object prefixes. If it is, how does this mesh with the > >> human/non-human distinction mentioned in the rules on pages 171-173 of > >> Campbell and Karttunen's grammar, vol.1, and especially in the specific > >> object prefix slot? > >> John Sullivan > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Michael McCafferty > > 307 Memorial Hall > > Indiana University > > Bloomington, Indiana > > 47405 > > mmccaffe at indiana.edu > > > > > > > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu "Talking is often a torment for me, and I need many days of silence to recover from the futility of words. C.G. Jung "...as a dog howls at the moon, I talk." Rumi From jsullivan3 at mac.com Sat Jul 13 16:16:58 2002 From: jsullivan3 at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:16:58 -0500 Subject: two questions Message-ID: The discussion developing as a result of my initial questions has been great. However, I think I screwed up on the first one. The complete text from Lockhart, page 42, is: "amixpantzinco in antlatoque ninoteilhuia in Juan Buenaventura mochipa motlapololtitinemi..." It looks like I mistakenly included "Juan Buenaventura" with the first phrase instead of seeing it as the beginning of the second. In this way the first phrase simply refers to the complaint without mentioning whom it concerns. T?chtlap?polhu?c?n. John Sullivan From jsullivan3 at mac.com Tue Jul 16 01:45:11 2002 From: jsullivan3 at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:45:11 -0500 Subject: Manuscripts on the web from Zacatecas Message-ID: Tohuampoyohuan, The Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology (Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C.) is happy to announce that our first digitalized nahuatl manuscript is available for consultation on our website: www.idiez.org.mx Go to the site, and enter our "Virtual Archive" in English or Spanish. Click on "Nochistl?n 1652", and then on the document title in English or Spanish and have fun! You can work on the web or download the material. We will be loading more manuscripts soon, as well as audio, video and grammar charts. Please give us your feedback on image resolution, download time, layout, aesthetics, and anything else which might improve the site. John Sullivan, Ph.D. Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Av. Guerrero 227, int. 12 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 89000 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx tel (52-492) 922-1709 fax (52-492) 922-9848 From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Tue Jul 16 17:57:27 2002 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:57:27 -0500 Subject: =?UNKNOWN?Q?C=F3dices_otom=EDes?= Message-ID: Estimados listeros: Les aviso que recientemente se publicaron, en el sitio Web de Editions Sup-Infor, nuevas versiones paleogr?ficas de los c?dices otom?es de Huichapan y Jilotepec, as? como un cuadro fon?tico que es ?til para trabajar con los m?ltiples sistemas ortogr?ficos que han han sido usados para transcribir el otom? durante desde el siglo XVI hasta ahora. Los documentos mencionados est?n a su disposici?n en http://www.sup-infor.com/navigation.htm, escogiendo la opci?n TEXTES/otomi. El icono del libro da acceso a una muestra, que s?lo incluye el inicio de cada documento. Con el icono de la letra "i" se obtienen documentos introductorios con informaci?n acerca de cada manuscrito. Los iconos comprimidos .zip son para bajar la transcripci?n completa de cada documento, junto con el archivo con informaci?n y el cuadro fon?tico. Para las referencias citadas en el cuadro, hay que hacer clic en el ?ltimo v?nculo de la p?gina de manuscritos otom?es: http://www.sup-infor.com/sources/codex_otomi/Fonemas1.htm. Espero que les sean ?tiles estos documentos. Estoy a sus ?rdenes para cualquier comentario o aclaraci?n. Un saludo, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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