From dancharthos at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 12 20:08:44 2002
From: dancharthos at hotmail.com (Daniel Thomas)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:08:44 -0500
Subject: ixtlahua/debt
Message-ID: <TUE.12.MAR.2002.150844.0500.DANCHARTHOS@HOTMAIL.COM>

debt-payment - nextlahualiztli -- ixtlahua/debt

gentlemen: it is enlightening to me to witness your "etic" discussion.
Thank you.

yours truly, another tlacuilo

>From: Carlos Santamarina Novillo <carlossn at ui.boe.es>
>To: Richard.Haly at Colorado.EDU
>CC: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu
>Subject: Re: ixtlahua/debt
>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:12:38 +0100
>
>Yes, I think too that the �metaphysical considerations� had obscured the
>social reality about human sacrifice. I think that about this issue is
>very appropriate the use of  pike�s terms emics (the native sources�
>reasoning) and etics (the scholar�s conclusions), as in many other
>cases.
>I am very interested about teteuctin as teteo, or rulers as gods. Can
>you specify your sources about the divine consideration of rulers? Thank
>you
>                                                                 - Carlos
>Santamarina <carloss at ui.boe.es>
>
>"Richard Haly" ha escrito:
>
> > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:22:05 -0700
> > Subject: Re: ixtlahua/debt
> > From: richard haly <Richard.Haly at colorado.edu>
> > To: Frances Karttunen <karttu at nantucket.net>, <nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu>
> >
> > I can likewise take issue with most representations of sacrifice as
> > debt-payement to gods when concepts such as debt, payment, and gods go
> >
> > unexamined. From my research, nextlahualiztli makes most sense as
> > payment to
> > the rulers (likewise teotl). When people say that the Aztecs thought
> > the
> > Spaniards were "gods" - teules- it makes them (the Aztecs) seem pretty
> >
> > credulous when we think of "gods" in any Judeo-Christian manner.
> > Nonetheless, when one considers that they called their own rulers
> > "gods" and
> > treated them as such - not looking in to the brightness of the face of
> > the
> > emperor/sun - then any debt-payment to gods can be a debt-payment to
> > rulers. All sacrifice phenomena - and all festival and pilgrimage
> > phenomena
> > as well - make much more sense when one tries to understand them in
> > this
> > world and not in some metaphysical or "religious" way. (Religious is
> > in
> > quotation marks because most people think religion is about
> > "spiritual"
> > stuff and not "material" stuff because that is what their own
> > religions have
> > told them. That is not the case in a culture of embodied ancestors -
> > Mesoamerica, for one.) Sacrifice is much more like kula-exchange among
> >
> > Trobriand islanders. An explanation of sacrifice whose dynamics do not
> > rely
> > on metaphysical language or a transcendent agent has a greater chance
> > of
> > making real sense.
> >
> > Richard




_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From js9211 at csc.albany.edu  Wed Mar 13 14:33:05 2002
From: js9211 at csc.albany.edu (SANCHEZ JOANNA M)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:33:05 -0500
Subject: ixtlahua/debt
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F136z37cfJiY9Z00000573@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.13.MAR.2002.093305.0500.JS9211@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>

I had been reluctant to put my two cents in when this discussion first
surfaced, but now I'd like to add some fodder to this epistemological
fire.
	It may be that we can claim 'social reality' to occupy a different
plane than the 'metaphysical', but we cannot lose sight of the fact that
human beings can only act meaningfully in the 'real world' through a
system of ideas, and that for some of us, it is the system of ideas
underlying pragmatic action that is an important focus of research.
Any separation of the two systems is an artificial distinction we
ourselves impose on reality.  I agree that Nahua concepts of debt,
payment, and gods are poorly understood and need to be examined.  But I
draw the line at suggesting that we can ignore metaphysical considerations
as an unimportant component of Nahua or any other cultural phenomena.
	We have seen on 9-11 how 'spiritual' ideas can be very potent
motivators of individual action, even while it is apparent that the
proponents of said action have very pragmatic underlying goals in mind.
And our own national rhetoric relies heavily on the affective values
ascribed to metaphysical conceptions of God and Country to motivate
individuals to support and participate in economically grounded
retaliatory action.
	I enjoy being a list member, but have often been
disappointed at what I perceive to be a disciplinary prejudice against
those who approach Nahua materials from a different perspective than that
of the majority. I would ask that more tolerance be afforded those
whose academic proclivities lead them to investigate the nature and
dynamics of symbolic systems. The examination of such systems
can reveal semantic organizing principles which may ultimately enhance our
understanding of Nahuatl linguistics.

	'Nuff said.  Thanks.  Joanna Sanchez


From ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu  Thu Mar 14 00:26:21 2002
From: ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu (Kevin P Smith)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:26:21 -0800
Subject: sardonic nicknames
Message-ID: <WED.13.MAR.2002.162621.0800.KSMITH@UMAIL.UCSB.EDU>

Dear Nahuatlatos,

In an article written, I believe, by James Lockhart, there is a discussion
of categories of Nahuatl names. Among the categories was one the author
called "sardonic nicknames." If anyone is familiar with the article or the
concept, I would greatly appreciate any information, as I have lost the
reference.

Thanks in advance,

--
Kevin Paul Smith
University of California Santa Barbara
ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu


From js9211 at csc.albany.edu  Thu Mar 14 16:16:54 2002
From: js9211 at csc.albany.edu (SANCHEZ JOANNA M)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 11:16:54 -0500
Subject: rejoinder
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.111654.0500.JS9211@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>

Dear Dr. Karttunen- (** please forgive duplicate message)

	 I want you to know that you have never disappointed
me; on the contrary-your knowledge of Nahuatl as a formal language system
is an excellent resource.  Likewise, your willingness to set things in
order by proffering your expertise is always a welcome sign of your
professional generousity. I consult your work often, and am always
grateful for anything you have to add to discussions.  Likewise, Joe
Campbell's contributions are invaluable to all of us.

	I understand where you linguists are coming from. And that it is a
fine and healthy mode of inquiry.  As for myself, I am neither
overly spiritual, of Mexican descent, nor, I'm afraid, intellectually
gifted.  I am, however, a firm believer in open dialogue between academics
who can bring a variety of perspectives to bear on the study of Nahua
language and culture.

	My perspective is based on semiotics and semantics of language
use, a field not wholly independent from that of linguistics.  Where we
part company is that rather than focusing strictly on language as a
rule-governed system, I study discourse structures and ideologies of
language use.

	All scientific inquiry must start by establishing certain operating
assumptions. Traditional approaches have of necessity relied on an
assumption that presents itself from the matrix of Western language
teleologies- that reference is the prime function of language as a system,
and "that the divisions and structures of language should ...
transparently fit the structures of the 'real world'" (Woolard 1998;
after Silverstein 1979,81,85, 87).

Woolard says it better than I could ever hope to:

	"A dominant view in American anthropology and linguistics has long
cast ideology as a somewhat unfortunate, though perhaps socioculturally
interesting, distraction from primary and thus 'real' linguistic data; ...
we must look [instead] at ideas about the meaning, function, and
value of language in order to understand the degree of socially shared
systematicity in empirically occurring linguistic forms."

	I may be irrecoverably naive, but I am confident that
we can and should strive to maintain a healthy respect for each other's
endeavors.  I have the utmost respect for the discipline of linguistics
to which you have tirelessly dedicated your considerable efforts, and
shall continue to do so. If I post a question or comment, it is with the
fervent hope that I will not be considered frivolous, but that I will be
understood to be seeking out knowledgeable opinions- to be corrected, if
you will.

	My disappointment is not with the quality of opinions nor the
perspective from which they derive, but with the occasional failure of
some to recognize the validity of divergent approaches. And even this I
can understand as more a product of frustration with unfamiliar concepts
than as narrowminded cantankerousness. Please accept this in the spirit in
which it is offered- a genuine effort to extend the laurel branch of
mutual understanding.

		Sincerely, Joanna M. Sanchez.


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Thu Mar 14 17:07:49 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 11:07:49 -0600
Subject: Appropriate topics
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.110749.0600.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

Dear Subscribers,

May I gently remind you that the discussion list exists to explore issues
dealing with Nahua culture and the Nahuatl language.  From time to time our
conversations tend to get beyond this narrowly described focus.  It is my
job as list owner to remind us that we need to keep our focus.  If you wish
to discuss other issues beyond these, please do so off-line, that is among
the specific persons interested in that conversation.

Thank you.

J. F. Schwaller,
List Owner


John F. Schwaller
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
315 Behmler Hall
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at mrs.umn.edu


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Thu Mar 14 17:40:42 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 11:40:42 -0600
Subject: Some questions
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.114042.0600.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

Reply-To: "Susana Moraleda" <susana at losrancheros.org>
From: "Susana Moraleda" <susana at losrancheros.org>
To: "Nahuat-l \(mensajes\)" <nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu>
Subject: Some questions
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 18:28:54 +0100


I have some questions which someone asked me, and which I can't answer.
I'd be grateful if someone could give me a hand
(1)
Is it true that "mezclilla" (or "jeans") was a type of material known by
Aztecs to tailor clothes. If so, what was/is its name in Nahuatl?
(2)
Is it true that the place where the Hospital del Nino Jesus now
stands, was
the ancient site place where Moctezuma and Cortes met for the first
time?
(3)
Is it true that octli (pulque) was used to anesthetize those destined to
be
sacrified?
(4)
How many people in total were killed by Cortes?

Thank you very much.
Susana Moraleda


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Thu Mar 14 19:33:14 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:33:14 -0600
Subject: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020314113928.038f11b0@cda.mrs.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.133314.0600.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

At 11:40 AM 3/14/02 -0600, John F. Schwaller wrote:
>(2)
>Is it true that the place where the Hospital del Nino Jesus now
>stands, was
>the ancient site place where Moctezuma and Cortes met for the first
>time?


Probably not.  The accounts seem to place it a bit further south.  I've
always assumed it was somewhere between Churubusco and the Chabacano Metro
stop.


>(4)
>How many people in total were killed by Cortes?


That is nearly impossible to know.  How many were killed by direct action
of war, or how many died as a result of warfare, pestilence, and
famine?  We don't even know for sure how many Spaniards died in the
conquest, and they were the folks keeping the records.  For that matter we
don't even know for sure how many Spaniards there were.



John F. Schwaller
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
315 Behmler Hall
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at mrs.umn.edu


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Thu Mar 14 19:49:12 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:49:12 -0600
Subject: ixtlahua/debt
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.134912.0600.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

>Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:49:29 -0700
>Subject: Re: ixtlahua/debt
>From: richard haly <Richard.Haly at colorado.edu>
>To: SANCHEZ JOANNA M <js9211 at csc.albany.edu>, <nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu>
>
>Joanna,
>
>While I understand your concern that a focus on "social reality" might
>ignore the meaning of things, let me clarify my position stated in my email
>of 15 February.
>
>My argument is NOT in favor of a materialist approach and against a
>metaphysical approach but against the very distinction that makes either of
>these approaches possible. The separation of mind/body, spiritual/material
>is very much a part of European history and not suited to representing many
>practices in other parts of the world. (My strong version of this is that it
>is not even suitable to account for religious practices in the part of the
>world that it came from). See Stephen Toulmin's _Cosmopolis_. This is
>because the spiritual/material or mind/body distinction is part of the
>ideology of the religion/culture itself. I grew up hearing Jesuits tell me
>about being "in the world but not of it" (which, to their credit, might mean
>something else as well...). But my point is that there is no meaning without
>things. Or as William Carlos Williams had it: "No ideas but in things."
>Linguists (successful ones) use natural language - not what one might
>_potentially_ say. Context is everything. I recommend any of the works of
>Voloshinov which demonstrate this.
>
>Let me give you some examples: I live in Boulder, Colorado and if I choose
>to (and I do not), I can put on a pair of Birkenstocks, fill my pockets with
>granola and bicycle up into the foothills of the Rocky Mountains where I
>might sit in some Asian posture or other, stare vacantly out over the brown
>cloud that marks Denver and feel myself close to nature. Well, that and 75
>cents will get me on the bus. Nevermind, that "close to nature" has its own
>history - originally (pre-Darwin) it was the ultimate "put down" as in the
>"Great Chain of Being" it was better to be near the top (near god) and not
>"close to nature", i.e. slaves and oysters. It was only after the
>romanticization of manifest destiny and the "empty" frontier that this came
>to mean what the metaphysicians and New Agers now attempt. Look at the early
>paintings of California - great landscapes with a single indigenous figure.
>This is where it began to change. Again, context.
>
>Now, on the other hand, suppose I am a native speaker of Nahuatl and
>together with most everyone else in the village we get together to "greet
>the tatitas"  or "serve the saints" which involves eating, drinking, and
>dancing. It involves whoever is responsible (the mayordomo) feeding lots and
>lots of people for a few days. How does this happen? The mayordomo doesn't
>have it catered, nor do they run down to the supermarket and liquor store
>and purchase all the requisite food and drink. Why? Because they don't have
>money (at one time there was no money and people exchanged things). Nor do
>they just harvest all their maize, tomatoes & chilis, kill all their pigs
>and turkeys, and make a big meal. Even this would not be enough and what
>would they eat afterwards?. Nor could all this be done little by little as
>there is no refrigeration and pigs & turkeys & maize only reproduce at a
>certain rate. So what happens at a festival? Everyone participates. "Hay que
>cooperar." This means that you for example are a mayordomo of a small
>festival (San Miguel Tzinacapan in the Sierra Norte de Puebla has 28 per
>annum - not counting baptisms, weddings, funerals, and putting a roof on a
>house.) and I am mayordomo of another festival. You know that you can come
>over an borrow a chicken or whatever whenever you need it because I will be
>expecting you to repay this at my festival. Or I can be pro-active and go to
>your sponsored festival with my wife who will  bring 2 kg tortilla, some
>tomato, chile,  chocolate and the like ("cold" things) while, being male,
>will fill a bottle with "refino"  which is primitive rum - yes, primitive is
>appropriate here - put a corncob in the top so it won't leak too much and
>wrap it with two packs of cigarillos Alas and two packs of phosphoros
>Clasicos ("hot things - all of them). And off we go. As it turns out, most
>everyone is doing this to a greater or lesser degree. And what happens? Why
>is everyone at these festivals so serious all the time?
>
>Because a festival is not a party and people are not about having a "good
>time." Greeting the tatitas or serving the saints is work.  The participants
>are not "appeasing the ancestors" or anything so metaphysical. How would
>they know whether it was successful? Because material and spiritual are not
>only not separate something else is happening. After all, if I buy a  ticket
>and pray to win the lottery, there is something of a lag time between when I
>pray and when I win. This is NOT the case with the festival, wherein the
>performance accomplishes what it sets out to do. Greeting the tatitas or
>serving the saints creates social order. After the festival everyone knows
>just who owes what to whom. The ancestors couldn't be happier. In his book
>_Los Pueblos de la Sierra_  Bernardo García Martinez tells how in the 16th
>century the Spaniards complained of (among other things) the fact that the
>Indians would use the monies left over in their treasuries to put on a
>festival. The Spaniards saw this as a waste of money - "why couldn't they
>purchase something useful" - whereas the festival actually created the order
>by which people knew how to greet each other, who helps whom in the milpa
>and to what degree and so on. So, festivals as "self-fulfilling prophecies"
>get the work done and are - from the perspective of the participants -
>meaningful. They do not "refer" to metaphysical objects (oxymoron?).
>Performed, they function like "performatives" (duh) wherein when I say "I
>promise" sho' nuff, I have promised.
>
>We miss this because we come from a culture that makes much of personal
>individual freedom and little of status and hierarchy. We think this is the
>only game in town - or oughta be. Ernest Gellner's _Language and Solitude_
>is eloquent on this point.
>
>A lot of the methodology of dealing with metaphysical and symbolic concerns
>come from reading Mircea Eliade whose main argument was that humans seek
>contact with the divine through hierophanies etc. If Eliade is
>contextualized we find that his thinking is that of 1/ an arch-conservative
>Catholic (though very well-read) and 2/ a predictable response to the anomie
>following WWII and 3/ a predictable critique of the opposite of what he
>recommends - French Existentialism.
>
>Even al-Quaida terrorists do not do what they do because they believe in a
>certain program. Their actions create a community _in this world_  in which
>they have a certain status and which is meaningful to them.
>
>Religion is not about "belief" any more than it make sense to say that we
>"believe" in our language.
>
>  It is not that I am intolerant of "other approaches," I am merely
>interested in a critical examination of the underpinnings of any kind of
>analysis I undertake. This is important for political reasons. Archaeology
>finds objects and if that object looks like a skeleton it can become a
>"death god" and suddenly there the Aztecs have a "cult of death." Or finding
>a female figurine with wide hips, there is now a "fertility cult." All based
>on equally poorly understood European models. What do these things mean?
>I've known lots of folks who are native speakers of Nahuatl and not one of
>them would be so foolish as to think that  it was this little clay figure in
>female form that allowed them to have children or for the maize to grow
>(same thing). However, the practices that surround these objects DO have a
>lot to do with getting the maize planted and harvested and with attending to
>the birth and care of newborn human children.  Pierre Bourdieu is good to
>think with when it comes to practice. Yet the people who still speak Nahuatl
>are deemed inauthentic if they don't act like the invention of a Classic
>past expects them to act.
>
>I don't know whether this clarifies anything. I wrote quickly as I have to
>get to work. Let me just say again that I do not support a materialist
>(Harris or Harner) approach any more than I support a metaphysical approach
>(Eliade, Campbell). Both are incorrect. Analysis should focus on intention,
>practice and unintended consequences.
>
>Best,
>
>Richard Haly


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Thu Mar 14 21:47:57 2002
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:47:57 -0500
Subject: sardonic nicknames
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0203131621060.3654-100000@bergman.umail.ucsb.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.164757.0500.MDMORRIS@INDIANA.EDU>

Kevin,

Lockhart also included his discussion of sardonic Nahuatl names in his
_Nahuas After the Conquest_.  After living and studying in Tlaxcala for
the past three years, I still don't have a firm enough opinion on the
subject to make useful comment about what was the intent of that type of
name.  I would like to point out, however, that Lockhart misread
Maxixcatzin as that it is composed of Maxatl or Maxtli, Ichcatl, Catl and
Tzin and refers to that dynasty's (with origins in Cholula) control of
Ocotelulco's profitable trade in cotton and other goods on the Tabasco
road.  Vulgar word play in names is, nonetheless, very present.  Today a
young student asked me about his last name, Cuatecontzin -- Wooden head
and a good part of Tlalcuapan shares the last name Bello that forty years
ago was Tzontimatzin - Hairy Hand, that they changed to Pelo, i.e. Bello.

best,
Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Thu Mar 14 21:57:33 2002
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:57:33 -0500
Subject: Appropriate topics
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020314110456.038a8ab0@cda.mrs.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.165733.0500.MDMORRIS@INDIANA.EDU>

John F. Schwaller,

Some idea of to what you refer would be appreciated by myself and perhaps
others who retain some interest in using your list.

Sincerely,
Mark Morris

On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, John F. Schwaller wrote:

>
> Dear Subscribers,
>
> May I gently remind you that the discussion list exists to explore issues
> dealing with Nahua culture and the Nahuatl language.  From time to time our
> conversations tend to get beyond this narrowly described focus.  It is my
> job as list owner to remind us that we need to keep our focus.  If you wish
> to discuss other issues beyond these, please do so off-line, that is among
> the specific persons interested in that conversation.
>
> Thank you.
>
> J. F. Schwaller,
> List Owner
>
>
> John F. Schwaller
> Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
> 315 Behmler Hall
> University of Minnesota, Morris
> 600 E 4th Street
> Morris, MN  56267
> 320-589-6015
> FAX 320-589-6399
> schwallr at mrs.umn.edu
>
>
>



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From eherrera at metadata.com.mx  Thu Mar 14 23:20:17 2002
From: eherrera at metadata.com.mx (Ernesto Herrera L.)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:20:17 -0600
Subject: sardonic nicknames
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020314163646.25633B-100000@lear.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.172017.0600.>

'Bello' means 'beautiful'. It is 'Vello' that means 'Hair', although it
expressely excludes the meaning of 'head hair', referring instead to facial,
body, even pubic, hair.



-----Mensaje original-----
De: owner-nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu]En
nombre de Mark David Morris
Enviado el: Thursday, March 14, 2002 03:48
Para: Kevin P Smith
CC: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu
Asunto: Re: sardonic nicknames


Kevin,

Lockhart also included his discussion of sardonic Nahuatl names in his
_Nahuas After the Conquest_.  After living and studying in Tlaxcala for
the past three years, I still don't have a firm enough opinion on the
subject to make useful comment about what was the intent of that type of
name.  I would like to point out, however, that Lockhart misread
Maxixcatzin as that it is composed of Maxatl or Maxtli, Ichcatl, Catl and
Tzin and refers to that dynasty's (with origins in Cholula) control of
Ocotelulco's profitable trade in cotton and other goods on the Tabasco
road.  Vulgar word play in names is, nonetheless, very present.  Today a
young student asked me about his last name, Cuatecontzin -- Wooden head
and a good part of Tlalcuapan shares the last name Bello that forty years
ago was Tzontimatzin - Hairy Hand, that they changed to Pelo, i.e. Bello.

best,
Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu  Fri Mar 15 00:08:25 2002
From: ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu (Kevin P Smith)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:08:25 -0800
Subject: sardonic nicknames
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020314163646.25633B-100000@lear.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.160825.0800.KSMITH@UMAIL.UCSB.EDU>

Many thanks to Mark and everyone else who was kind enough to steer me to
_Nahuas After the Conquest_. Yes, that was exactly the reference I had
lost. And thanks also for the tip on Maxixcatzin. I was about to use
it. I'm still working on the character of Ahuachpitzactzin, whose name Joe
Campbell translates as "thin drizzle." It's obvious how this could be a
cradle name, but isn't it also possible that it was more poetic, something
like "fine dew" or "light mist?" Additionally, there are indications
that Ahuachpitzactzin was born under the unfortunate day-sign, Ome
Tochtli, which predisposed one to excesses, especially drunkenness. Could
the name "thin drizzle" have been a Nahua elder's attempt to somehow
lessen the effect of a tonalli more inclined to downpours and floods?

--
Kevin
ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu

On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Mark David Morris wrote:

> Kevin,
>
> Lockhart also included his discussion of sardonic Nahuatl names in his
> _Nahuas After the Conquest_.  After living and studying in Tlaxcala for
> the past three years, I still don't have a firm enough opinion on the
> subject to make useful comment about what was the intent of that type of
> name.  I would like to point out, however, that Lockhart misread
> Maxixcatzin as that it is composed of Maxatl or Maxtli, Ichcatl, Catl and
> Tzin and refers to that dynasty's (with origins in Cholula) control of
> Ocotelulco's profitable trade in cotton and other goods on the Tabasco
> road.  Vulgar word play in names is, nonetheless, very present.  Today a
> young student asked me about his last name, Cuatecontzin -- Wooden head
> and a good part of Tlalcuapan shares the last name Bello that forty years
> ago was Tzontimatzin - Hairy Hand, that they changed to Pelo, i.e. Bello.
>
> best,
> Mark Morris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> La muerte tiene permiso a todo
>
> MDM, PhD Candidate
> Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
>
>
>


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Fri Mar 15 00:30:51 2002
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 19:30:51 -0500
Subject: sardonic nicknames
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0203141556140.25176-100000@bergman.umail.ucsb.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.193051.0500.MDMORRIS@INDIANA.EDU>

Kevin and Ernesto et al,

Yes, thin drizzle would tend to mean something like light, scattered dew;
I am not sure exactly how we could make a connection between his day sign
and his name, but please let me know if you make any progress.  Thanks for
the correction on Vello, Ernesto, I thought I had misinterpreted what I
heard, but Vello is unfortunately not part of my active Spanish
vocabulary.  I hope, nonetheless, you caught the word play between
Tzontimatzin and Bello.  I should point out also that Cuatecontzin could
also be translated as something like jar head if you take tecomatl to mean
a clay pot rather than the tecomate tree.

best,
Mark



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Fri Mar 15 17:14:54 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:14:54 -0600
Subject: ixtlahua/debt
Message-ID: <FRI.15.MAR.2002.111454.0600.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

Since this discussion began, I have been intending to write.  As it turns
out, one of the folk tales collected by Pablo Gonzalez Casanova , _Cuentos
Indigenas_ (Mexico: UNAM, 1946) focuses on just this word.  It occurs in
the first tale "Cente coatl ihuan tlacatl."  It tells of a debate between a
man and a snake, very much along the lines of Androcles and the Lion.  In
the European version the lion has a thorn in his paw.  The man, Androcles,
removes the thorn.  Later when Androcles (a Christian) is about to be
killed in the Coliseum by a wild lion, it turns out to be the same one he
had assisted years before, and is thus saved.  In the Nahua version the man
saves a snake who had been trapped under a fallen log.  Upon his removal
the snake proposes to eat the man.  The man protests, but the snake utters
the famous line; "Tle tehua qualli tlacatl, amo ticmati que ce qualli ica
ce amo qualli moxtlahua?"  "But you good man, did you not know that a good
[act] with an evil one is repaid?"  The rest of the story goes on to
demonstrate how a good act is repaid with an evil one.  But the key here is
that this act of repayment, or exchange, all revolves around the verb ixtlahua.

My thanks go to Joe Campbell who made me translate this story as one of my
first reading exercises in Nahuatl some 30 years ago.

J. F. Schwaller


John F. Schwaller
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
315 Behmler Hall
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at mrs.umn.edu


From ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu  Sun Mar 17 23:35:08 2002
From: ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu (Kevin P Smith)
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:35:08 -0800
Subject: tecuichpotzin
Message-ID: <SUN.17.MAR.2002.153508.0800.KSMITH@UMAIL.UCSB.EDU>

Dear Nahuatlatos,

Another name question. In an article on Isabel de Moctezuma, D. Chipman
follows Conway, calling her Tecuichpotzin. Is this a metathetic mispelling
that should be read Tecuipochtzin, meaning "royal young lady" or is there
another possible interpretation?

Secondly, Alva Ixlilxochitl refers to her as Miahuaxoxhitzin. Could
someone please offer a translation of the form /miawa/ ?

Thanks in advance.

--
Kevin Paul Smith
University of California Santa Barbara
ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Mon Mar 18 14:39:29 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 08:39:29 -0600
Subject: miawa (was: tecuichpotzin)
Message-ID: <MON.18.MAR.2002.083929.0600.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

From: Gloster David <David.Gloster at mch20.sbs.de>
To: "'Kevin P Smith'" <ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu>
Cc: "'nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu'" <nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu>
Subject: RE: miawa (was: tecuichpotzin)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 09:08:40 +0100


Hi Kevin,
I know the verb /miawati/ from the modern dialect of Amatlan de los Reyes
in Veracruz (25 years ago).
They used to say "in sentli miawati" (in centli miahuati) when the corn
(maize) plants got the flowers (like a little plume) on the top.
The flower itself was also called /miawatl/. So I assume it means something
like "bloom" or "blossom". That would fit to -xochi- (or as you wrote
-xoxhi-) in the name you mention. So it could mean "blooming flower".
This is only an amateur's guess, so you'd better wait for the experts'
opinions!

Best regards
David Gloster
Ottobrunn, Germany


From david at gloster.net  Mon Mar 18 15:17:30 2002
From: david at gloster.net (david at gloster.net)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 15:17:30 -0000
Subject: miawa (was: tecuichpotzin)
Message-ID: <MON.18.MAR.2002.151730.0000.>

Note: This message bounced the first time I sent it as I apparently used an e-
mail address other than the one I subscribed from. I appologize if the message
is already irrelevant, but I must try out several addresses to find out which
one works.

Hi Kevin,

I know the verb /miawati/ from the modern dialect of Amatlan de los Reyes in
Veracruz (25 years ago).

They used to say "in sentli miawati" (in centli miahuati) when the corn (maize)
plants got the flowers (like a little plume) on the top.
The flower itself was also called /miawatl/. So I assume it means something
like "bloom" or "blossom". That would fit to -xochi- (or as you wrote -xoxhi-)
in the name you mention. So it could mean "blooming flower".
This is only an amateur's guess, so you'd better wait for the experts' opinions!

Best regards
David Gloster
Ottobrunn, Germany

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin P Smith [mailto:ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu]
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 12:35 AM
To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu
Subject: tecuichpotzin


Dear Nahuatlatos,

Another name question. In an article on Isabel de Moctezuma, D. Chipman
follows Conway, calling her Tecuichpotzin. Is this a metathetic mispelling
that should be read Tecuipochtzin, meaning "royal young lady" or is there
another possible interpretation?

Secondly, Alva Ixlilxochitl refers to her as Miahuaxoxhitzin. Could
someone please offer a translation of the form /miawa/ ?

Thanks in advance.

--
Kevin Paul Smith
University of California Santa Barbara
ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu





.

--
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From aou at earthlink.net  Fri Mar 29 23:36:29 2002
From: aou at earthlink.net (Irma L. Muniz)
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:36:29 -0600
Subject: Religious History of the Mexika
Message-ID: <FRI.29.MAR.2002.173629.0600.AOU@EARTHLINK.NET>

Please distribute the enclosed writings about
the religious history of our ancestors, the Mexika.

Hermana Xochiquetzal:
     "How clever the Spaniards were in the Sixteenth
Century," said Maura, smiling.  "No sooner had they carried
off the military conquest than they set about the spiritual
conquest.  They destroyed - well, we destroy a culture and
its religion, but we give the conquered people our own
culture invested with Indian symbols - or perhaps we give
them back their own culture with European symbols."
     "That's true.  Here we call her the dark virgin.
That's the difference.  She's not white.  She's the mother
whom the Indian orphans needed.
     She's everything.  Can you imagine anything more
ingenious?  She's a Christian and Indian virgin, but she's
also the virgin of Israel, the Jewish mother of the
long-awaited Messiah.  On top of that, she has an Arabic
name, Guadalupe River of Wolves.  How may cultures for the
price of a single image!"
                Carlos Fuentes.  Revolutionary Mexico.
                The Years with Laura Diaz.  1999.

It is our duty and obligation as elders of the Sixth Sun
to re-educate our youth about our Mexika (me-shee-ka)
spirituality.  Our spirituality and spirits of love and
liberation are altars in our hearts.  Present religious
practices and discipline would never compare to the
spirituality of our Mexika past.  Imagine, even after
500 years of oppression, how we continue to spread the
truth of our most powerful cultural foundation, which
is Mexicayotl.  We must remember that in reality the
conquest of 1521 eventually became a religious war.
>From the moment the Catholics landed in Mexico, they
tried to force their doctrine on those who would not
convert.  The same Mexikas in the 21st Century refuse
to convert to the Democratic or Republican parities.
Our ancestors were inseparable from their spirituality.
Leaving their faith was the same as giving up their
identities as human beings.    It is written and revealed
that our last Mexika King, Cuauhtemoc, on
August 12, 1521, spoke before our ancient ancestors
for the last time.  Yes, we were there.  He directed
the Mexika "Tlamatinine," the wise people, to take
refuge in Tenochtitlan's impenetrable mountains,
jungles, and caves, to save our spiritual traditions.
Our beloved brother Marcos is presently continuing the
same, and we of the Sixth Sun, who are confined in the
dungeons of Christianity, also continue to enlighten
and preserve our ancient spirituality of liberation,
justice, and the return of Aztlan.
     It is revealed that before the conquest, before
the religious war of two cultures, Tepeyacac had been
the site of the great temple of the earth goddess,
Coatlique.  Our ancient ancestors have always called
her Tonantzin, our most revered mother.
"Tlamatinine," our wise men, knew from the beginning
that Tepeyacac would be the physical center on earth
for the end of the Fifth Sun and the birth of the
Sixth Sun.
     The appearance of La Virgen de Guadalupe was
inevitable during the time of massive genocide
committed against our people in Cem-Anahuac.  Her
appearances to Cuauhtlatoahtzin (Juan Diego), were
the same -- as if Tonantzin had appeared to create
a social, political, and spiritual movement for the
present and future.
      Our ancient ancestors claimed her appearances
as one of land, children, and liberation from the
oppressor (Spaniards). Our beloved Mexika king,
Cuauhtemoc, spoke of these religious spiritual
appearances, and then there was silence.  Our Mexika
ancestors understood that the world they knew, the
Fifth Sun, was coming to an end.  They have been in
silence ever since.
     Even today our indigenous brothers and sisters
from the Holy Land pray in Nahuatl.  It is a language
that bridges different states of awareness.
     What is the lesson from this past, religious
history?  Our lesson is that the true story of La
Virgen de Guadalupe is finally beginning to surface
after nearly 500 years of silence.  That a Mexika man
formed a spiritual movement to save the faith and
culture of his people in the most dangerous of
times (1531).  That Aztlan, our sustenance and place
where heaven comes to earth, will give birth to the
Sixth Sun.  That we, Mexikas of the Sixth Sun, can
begin to restore cosmic harmony among ourselves.  That
Tepeyacac can be an altar in our hearts, creating life,
emotion, personality, and human creativity.  That our
present spiritual Mexika struggle in Aztlan takes us
back to the great migration -- our search for a spiritual
home and time of wandering and purification.  That Aztlan
is a place of sacred energy which gives us, the Mexikas,
a foundation and place to organize for the benefit of our
people and the earth.  It is a place where the earth can
be redeemed, regenerated, and reborn.  That the Sixth Sun
requires our active participation and cooperation.
Ometeotl, Tonantzin, and the gods are once again giving us
the opportunity to bring our spiritual dream into being.
That Cuauhtemoc was born and trained for a single purpose
which was to take the culture of the Mexika (Fifth Sun)
underground, until it would rise again (Sixth Sun).  He
is the guardian of the great treasure of the Mexika.  This
treasure is the cosmic vision that is encoded in Mexika
culture and spirituality.  That we have remained in bondage
for far too long, and now we must rise in the power of the
Sixth Sun.  That we must take the stance of a proud and
noble warrior spiritual race of the Sixth Sun.  That we face
the winds of change and demand that the position we hold in
history be updated and rectified.  The record reflects that
we are children of God who are chosen for rising of the
Sixth Sun. We are now reborn and reformed, and re-sworn.
We rise up to our fullest potentials, and we are not
Hispanic or Latin!  We are Mexikan of the Sixth Sun of Aztlan!

"Mihtoh, mocmihuaz, ninetoltia."
It is said, it will be done.  I promise.

                    In exile,
                    Ramsey Muniz - Tezcatlipoca
*************************************************************
                    www.freeramsey.com
*************************************************************
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as shown below:
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From dancharthos at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 12 20:08:44 2002
From: dancharthos at hotmail.com (Daniel Thomas)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:08:44 -0500
Subject: ixtlahua/debt
Message-ID: <TUE.12.MAR.2002.150844.0500.DANCHARTHOS@HOTMAIL.COM>

debt-payment - nextlahualiztli -- ixtlahua/debt

gentlemen: it is enlightening to me to witness your "etic" discussion.
Thank you.

yours truly, another tlacuilo

>From: Carlos Santamarina Novillo <carlossn at ui.boe.es>
>To: Richard.Haly at Colorado.EDU
>CC: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu
>Subject: Re: ixtlahua/debt
>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:12:38 +0100
>
>Yes, I think too that the ?metaphysical considerations? had obscured the
>social reality about human sacrifice. I think that about this issue is
>very appropriate the use of  pike?s terms emics (the native sources?
>reasoning) and etics (the scholar?s conclusions), as in many other
>cases.
>I am very interested about teteuctin as teteo, or rulers as gods. Can
>you specify your sources about the divine consideration of rulers? Thank
>you
>                                                                 - Carlos
>Santamarina <carloss at ui.boe.es>
>
>"Richard Haly" ha escrito:
>
> > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:22:05 -0700
> > Subject: Re: ixtlahua/debt
> > From: richard haly <Richard.Haly at colorado.edu>
> > To: Frances Karttunen <karttu at nantucket.net>, <nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu>
> >
> > I can likewise take issue with most representations of sacrifice as
> > debt-payement to gods when concepts such as debt, payment, and gods go
> >
> > unexamined. From my research, nextlahualiztli makes most sense as
> > payment to
> > the rulers (likewise teotl). When people say that the Aztecs thought
> > the
> > Spaniards were "gods" - teules- it makes them (the Aztecs) seem pretty
> >
> > credulous when we think of "gods" in any Judeo-Christian manner.
> > Nonetheless, when one considers that they called their own rulers
> > "gods" and
> > treated them as such - not looking in to the brightness of the face of
> > the
> > emperor/sun - then any debt-payment to gods can be a debt-payment to
> > rulers. All sacrifice phenomena - and all festival and pilgrimage
> > phenomena
> > as well - make much more sense when one tries to understand them in
> > this
> > world and not in some metaphysical or "religious" way. (Religious is
> > in
> > quotation marks because most people think religion is about
> > "spiritual"
> > stuff and not "material" stuff because that is what their own
> > religions have
> > told them. That is not the case in a culture of embodied ancestors -
> > Mesoamerica, for one.) Sacrifice is much more like kula-exchange among
> >
> > Trobriand islanders. An explanation of sacrifice whose dynamics do not
> > rely
> > on metaphysical language or a transcendent agent has a greater chance
> > of
> > making real sense.
> >
> > Richard




_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From js9211 at csc.albany.edu  Wed Mar 13 14:33:05 2002
From: js9211 at csc.albany.edu (SANCHEZ JOANNA M)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:33:05 -0500
Subject: ixtlahua/debt
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F136z37cfJiY9Z00000573@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.13.MAR.2002.093305.0500.JS9211@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>

I had been reluctant to put my two cents in when this discussion first
surfaced, but now I'd like to add some fodder to this epistemological
fire.
	It may be that we can claim 'social reality' to occupy a different
plane than the 'metaphysical', but we cannot lose sight of the fact that
human beings can only act meaningfully in the 'real world' through a
system of ideas, and that for some of us, it is the system of ideas
underlying pragmatic action that is an important focus of research.
Any separation of the two systems is an artificial distinction we
ourselves impose on reality.  I agree that Nahua concepts of debt,
payment, and gods are poorly understood and need to be examined.  But I
draw the line at suggesting that we can ignore metaphysical considerations
as an unimportant component of Nahua or any other cultural phenomena.
	We have seen on 9-11 how 'spiritual' ideas can be very potent
motivators of individual action, even while it is apparent that the
proponents of said action have very pragmatic underlying goals in mind.
And our own national rhetoric relies heavily on the affective values
ascribed to metaphysical conceptions of God and Country to motivate
individuals to support and participate in economically grounded
retaliatory action.
	I enjoy being a list member, but have often been
disappointed at what I perceive to be a disciplinary prejudice against
those who approach Nahua materials from a different perspective than that
of the majority. I would ask that more tolerance be afforded those
whose academic proclivities lead them to investigate the nature and
dynamics of symbolic systems. The examination of such systems
can reveal semantic organizing principles which may ultimately enhance our
understanding of Nahuatl linguistics.

	'Nuff said.  Thanks.  Joanna Sanchez


From ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu  Thu Mar 14 00:26:21 2002
From: ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu (Kevin P Smith)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:26:21 -0800
Subject: sardonic nicknames
Message-ID: <WED.13.MAR.2002.162621.0800.KSMITH@UMAIL.UCSB.EDU>

Dear Nahuatlatos,

In an article written, I believe, by James Lockhart, there is a discussion
of categories of Nahuatl names. Among the categories was one the author
called "sardonic nicknames." If anyone is familiar with the article or the
concept, I would greatly appreciate any information, as I have lost the
reference.

Thanks in advance,

--
Kevin Paul Smith
University of California Santa Barbara
ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu


From js9211 at csc.albany.edu  Thu Mar 14 16:16:54 2002
From: js9211 at csc.albany.edu (SANCHEZ JOANNA M)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 11:16:54 -0500
Subject: rejoinder
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.111654.0500.JS9211@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>

Dear Dr. Karttunen- (** please forgive duplicate message)

	 I want you to know that you have never disappointed
me; on the contrary-your knowledge of Nahuatl as a formal language system
is an excellent resource.  Likewise, your willingness to set things in
order by proffering your expertise is always a welcome sign of your
professional generousity. I consult your work often, and am always
grateful for anything you have to add to discussions.  Likewise, Joe
Campbell's contributions are invaluable to all of us.

	I understand where you linguists are coming from. And that it is a
fine and healthy mode of inquiry.  As for myself, I am neither
overly spiritual, of Mexican descent, nor, I'm afraid, intellectually
gifted.  I am, however, a firm believer in open dialogue between academics
who can bring a variety of perspectives to bear on the study of Nahua
language and culture.

	My perspective is based on semiotics and semantics of language
use, a field not wholly independent from that of linguistics.  Where we
part company is that rather than focusing strictly on language as a
rule-governed system, I study discourse structures and ideologies of
language use.

	All scientific inquiry must start by establishing certain operating
assumptions. Traditional approaches have of necessity relied on an
assumption that presents itself from the matrix of Western language
teleologies- that reference is the prime function of language as a system,
and "that the divisions and structures of language should ...
transparently fit the structures of the 'real world'" (Woolard 1998;
after Silverstein 1979,81,85, 87).

Woolard says it better than I could ever hope to:

	"A dominant view in American anthropology and linguistics has long
cast ideology as a somewhat unfortunate, though perhaps socioculturally
interesting, distraction from primary and thus 'real' linguistic data; ...
we must look [instead] at ideas about the meaning, function, and
value of language in order to understand the degree of socially shared
systematicity in empirically occurring linguistic forms."

	I may be irrecoverably naive, but I am confident that
we can and should strive to maintain a healthy respect for each other's
endeavors.  I have the utmost respect for the discipline of linguistics
to which you have tirelessly dedicated your considerable efforts, and
shall continue to do so. If I post a question or comment, it is with the
fervent hope that I will not be considered frivolous, but that I will be
understood to be seeking out knowledgeable opinions- to be corrected, if
you will.

	My disappointment is not with the quality of opinions nor the
perspective from which they derive, but with the occasional failure of
some to recognize the validity of divergent approaches. And even this I
can understand as more a product of frustration with unfamiliar concepts
than as narrowminded cantankerousness. Please accept this in the spirit in
which it is offered- a genuine effort to extend the laurel branch of
mutual understanding.

		Sincerely, Joanna M. Sanchez.


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Thu Mar 14 17:07:49 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 11:07:49 -0600
Subject: Appropriate topics
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.110749.0600.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

Dear Subscribers,

May I gently remind you that the discussion list exists to explore issues
dealing with Nahua culture and the Nahuatl language.  From time to time our
conversations tend to get beyond this narrowly described focus.  It is my
job as list owner to remind us that we need to keep our focus.  If you wish
to discuss other issues beyond these, please do so off-line, that is among
the specific persons interested in that conversation.

Thank you.

J. F. Schwaller,
List Owner


John F. Schwaller
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
315 Behmler Hall
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at mrs.umn.edu


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Thu Mar 14 17:40:42 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 11:40:42 -0600
Subject: Some questions
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.114042.0600.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

Reply-To: "Susana Moraleda" <susana at losrancheros.org>
From: "Susana Moraleda" <susana at losrancheros.org>
To: "Nahuat-l \(mensajes\)" <nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu>
Subject: Some questions
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 18:28:54 +0100


I have some questions which someone asked me, and which I can't answer.
I'd be grateful if someone could give me a hand
(1)
Is it true that "mezclilla" (or "jeans") was a type of material known by
Aztecs to tailor clothes. If so, what was/is its name in Nahuatl?
(2)
Is it true that the place where the Hospital del Nino Jesus now
stands, was
the ancient site place where Moctezuma and Cortes met for the first
time?
(3)
Is it true that octli (pulque) was used to anesthetize those destined to
be
sacrified?
(4)
How many people in total were killed by Cortes?

Thank you very much.
Susana Moraleda


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Thu Mar 14 19:33:14 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:33:14 -0600
Subject: Some questions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020314113928.038f11b0@cda.mrs.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.133314.0600.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

At 11:40 AM 3/14/02 -0600, John F. Schwaller wrote:
>(2)
>Is it true that the place where the Hospital del Nino Jesus now
>stands, was
>the ancient site place where Moctezuma and Cortes met for the first
>time?


Probably not.  The accounts seem to place it a bit further south.  I've
always assumed it was somewhere between Churubusco and the Chabacano Metro
stop.


>(4)
>How many people in total were killed by Cortes?


That is nearly impossible to know.  How many were killed by direct action
of war, or how many died as a result of warfare, pestilence, and
famine?  We don't even know for sure how many Spaniards died in the
conquest, and they were the folks keeping the records.  For that matter we
don't even know for sure how many Spaniards there were.



John F. Schwaller
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
315 Behmler Hall
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at mrs.umn.edu


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Thu Mar 14 19:49:12 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:49:12 -0600
Subject: ixtlahua/debt
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.134912.0600.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

>Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:49:29 -0700
>Subject: Re: ixtlahua/debt
>From: richard haly <Richard.Haly at colorado.edu>
>To: SANCHEZ JOANNA M <js9211 at csc.albany.edu>, <nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu>
>
>Joanna,
>
>While I understand your concern that a focus on "social reality" might
>ignore the meaning of things, let me clarify my position stated in my email
>of 15 February.
>
>My argument is NOT in favor of a materialist approach and against a
>metaphysical approach but against the very distinction that makes either of
>these approaches possible. The separation of mind/body, spiritual/material
>is very much a part of European history and not suited to representing many
>practices in other parts of the world. (My strong version of this is that it
>is not even suitable to account for religious practices in the part of the
>world that it came from). See Stephen Toulmin's _Cosmopolis_. This is
>because the spiritual/material or mind/body distinction is part of the
>ideology of the religion/culture itself. I grew up hearing Jesuits tell me
>about being "in the world but not of it" (which, to their credit, might mean
>something else as well...). But my point is that there is no meaning without
>things. Or as William Carlos Williams had it: "No ideas but in things."
>Linguists (successful ones) use natural language - not what one might
>_potentially_ say. Context is everything. I recommend any of the works of
>Voloshinov which demonstrate this.
>
>Let me give you some examples: I live in Boulder, Colorado and if I choose
>to (and I do not), I can put on a pair of Birkenstocks, fill my pockets with
>granola and bicycle up into the foothills of the Rocky Mountains where I
>might sit in some Asian posture or other, stare vacantly out over the brown
>cloud that marks Denver and feel myself close to nature. Well, that and 75
>cents will get me on the bus. Nevermind, that "close to nature" has its own
>history - originally (pre-Darwin) it was the ultimate "put down" as in the
>"Great Chain of Being" it was better to be near the top (near god) and not
>"close to nature", i.e. slaves and oysters. It was only after the
>romanticization of manifest destiny and the "empty" frontier that this came
>to mean what the metaphysicians and New Agers now attempt. Look at the early
>paintings of California - great landscapes with a single indigenous figure.
>This is where it began to change. Again, context.
>
>Now, on the other hand, suppose I am a native speaker of Nahuatl and
>together with most everyone else in the village we get together to "greet
>the tatitas"  or "serve the saints" which involves eating, drinking, and
>dancing. It involves whoever is responsible (the mayordomo) feeding lots and
>lots of people for a few days. How does this happen? The mayordomo doesn't
>have it catered, nor do they run down to the supermarket and liquor store
>and purchase all the requisite food and drink. Why? Because they don't have
>money (at one time there was no money and people exchanged things). Nor do
>they just harvest all their maize, tomatoes & chilis, kill all their pigs
>and turkeys, and make a big meal. Even this would not be enough and what
>would they eat afterwards?. Nor could all this be done little by little as
>there is no refrigeration and pigs & turkeys & maize only reproduce at a
>certain rate. So what happens at a festival? Everyone participates. "Hay que
>cooperar." This means that you for example are a mayordomo of a small
>festival (San Miguel Tzinacapan in the Sierra Norte de Puebla has 28 per
>annum - not counting baptisms, weddings, funerals, and putting a roof on a
>house.) and I am mayordomo of another festival. You know that you can come
>over an borrow a chicken or whatever whenever you need it because I will be
>expecting you to repay this at my festival. Or I can be pro-active and go to
>your sponsored festival with my wife who will  bring 2 kg tortilla, some
>tomato, chile,  chocolate and the like ("cold" things) while, being male,
>will fill a bottle with "refino"  which is primitive rum - yes, primitive is
>appropriate here - put a corncob in the top so it won't leak too much and
>wrap it with two packs of cigarillos Alas and two packs of phosphoros
>Clasicos ("hot things - all of them). And off we go. As it turns out, most
>everyone is doing this to a greater or lesser degree. And what happens? Why
>is everyone at these festivals so serious all the time?
>
>Because a festival is not a party and people are not about having a "good
>time." Greeting the tatitas or serving the saints is work.  The participants
>are not "appeasing the ancestors" or anything so metaphysical. How would
>they know whether it was successful? Because material and spiritual are not
>only not separate something else is happening. After all, if I buy a  ticket
>and pray to win the lottery, there is something of a lag time between when I
>pray and when I win. This is NOT the case with the festival, wherein the
>performance accomplishes what it sets out to do. Greeting the tatitas or
>serving the saints creates social order. After the festival everyone knows
>just who owes what to whom. The ancestors couldn't be happier. In his book
>_Los Pueblos de la Sierra_  Bernardo Garc?a Martinez tells how in the 16th
>century the Spaniards complained of (among other things) the fact that the
>Indians would use the monies left over in their treasuries to put on a
>festival. The Spaniards saw this as a waste of money - "why couldn't they
>purchase something useful" - whereas the festival actually created the order
>by which people knew how to greet each other, who helps whom in the milpa
>and to what degree and so on. So, festivals as "self-fulfilling prophecies"
>get the work done and are - from the perspective of the participants -
>meaningful. They do not "refer" to metaphysical objects (oxymoron?).
>Performed, they function like "performatives" (duh) wherein when I say "I
>promise" sho' nuff, I have promised.
>
>We miss this because we come from a culture that makes much of personal
>individual freedom and little of status and hierarchy. We think this is the
>only game in town - or oughta be. Ernest Gellner's _Language and Solitude_
>is eloquent on this point.
>
>A lot of the methodology of dealing with metaphysical and symbolic concerns
>come from reading Mircea Eliade whose main argument was that humans seek
>contact with the divine through hierophanies etc. If Eliade is
>contextualized we find that his thinking is that of 1/ an arch-conservative
>Catholic (though very well-read) and 2/ a predictable response to the anomie
>following WWII and 3/ a predictable critique of the opposite of what he
>recommends - French Existentialism.
>
>Even al-Quaida terrorists do not do what they do because they believe in a
>certain program. Their actions create a community _in this world_  in which
>they have a certain status and which is meaningful to them.
>
>Religion is not about "belief" any more than it make sense to say that we
>"believe" in our language.
>
>  It is not that I am intolerant of "other approaches," I am merely
>interested in a critical examination of the underpinnings of any kind of
>analysis I undertake. This is important for political reasons. Archaeology
>finds objects and if that object looks like a skeleton it can become a
>"death god" and suddenly there the Aztecs have a "cult of death." Or finding
>a female figurine with wide hips, there is now a "fertility cult." All based
>on equally poorly understood European models. What do these things mean?
>I've known lots of folks who are native speakers of Nahuatl and not one of
>them would be so foolish as to think that  it was this little clay figure in
>female form that allowed them to have children or for the maize to grow
>(same thing). However, the practices that surround these objects DO have a
>lot to do with getting the maize planted and harvested and with attending to
>the birth and care of newborn human children.  Pierre Bourdieu is good to
>think with when it comes to practice. Yet the people who still speak Nahuatl
>are deemed inauthentic if they don't act like the invention of a Classic
>past expects them to act.
>
>I don't know whether this clarifies anything. I wrote quickly as I have to
>get to work. Let me just say again that I do not support a materialist
>(Harris or Harner) approach any more than I support a metaphysical approach
>(Eliade, Campbell). Both are incorrect. Analysis should focus on intention,
>practice and unintended consequences.
>
>Best,
>
>Richard Haly


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Thu Mar 14 21:47:57 2002
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:47:57 -0500
Subject: sardonic nicknames
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0203131621060.3654-100000@bergman.umail.ucsb.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.164757.0500.MDMORRIS@INDIANA.EDU>

Kevin,

Lockhart also included his discussion of sardonic Nahuatl names in his
_Nahuas After the Conquest_.  After living and studying in Tlaxcala for
the past three years, I still don't have a firm enough opinion on the
subject to make useful comment about what was the intent of that type of
name.  I would like to point out, however, that Lockhart misread
Maxixcatzin as that it is composed of Maxatl or Maxtli, Ichcatl, Catl and
Tzin and refers to that dynasty's (with origins in Cholula) control of
Ocotelulco's profitable trade in cotton and other goods on the Tabasco
road.  Vulgar word play in names is, nonetheless, very present.  Today a
young student asked me about his last name, Cuatecontzin -- Wooden head
and a good part of Tlalcuapan shares the last name Bello that forty years
ago was Tzontimatzin - Hairy Hand, that they changed to Pelo, i.e. Bello.

best,
Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Thu Mar 14 21:57:33 2002
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:57:33 -0500
Subject: Appropriate topics
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020314110456.038a8ab0@cda.mrs.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.165733.0500.MDMORRIS@INDIANA.EDU>

John F. Schwaller,

Some idea of to what you refer would be appreciated by myself and perhaps
others who retain some interest in using your list.

Sincerely,
Mark Morris

On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, John F. Schwaller wrote:

>
> Dear Subscribers,
>
> May I gently remind you that the discussion list exists to explore issues
> dealing with Nahua culture and the Nahuatl language.  From time to time our
> conversations tend to get beyond this narrowly described focus.  It is my
> job as list owner to remind us that we need to keep our focus.  If you wish
> to discuss other issues beyond these, please do so off-line, that is among
> the specific persons interested in that conversation.
>
> Thank you.
>
> J. F. Schwaller,
> List Owner
>
>
> John F. Schwaller
> Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
> 315 Behmler Hall
> University of Minnesota, Morris
> 600 E 4th Street
> Morris, MN  56267
> 320-589-6015
> FAX 320-589-6399
> schwallr at mrs.umn.edu
>
>
>



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From eherrera at metadata.com.mx  Thu Mar 14 23:20:17 2002
From: eherrera at metadata.com.mx (Ernesto Herrera L.)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:20:17 -0600
Subject: sardonic nicknames
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020314163646.25633B-100000@lear.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.172017.0600.>

'Bello' means 'beautiful'. It is 'Vello' that means 'Hair', although it
expressely excludes the meaning of 'head hair', referring instead to facial,
body, even pubic, hair.



-----Mensaje original-----
De: owner-nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu [mailto:owner-nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu]En
nombre de Mark David Morris
Enviado el: Thursday, March 14, 2002 03:48
Para: Kevin P Smith
CC: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu
Asunto: Re: sardonic nicknames


Kevin,

Lockhart also included his discussion of sardonic Nahuatl names in his
_Nahuas After the Conquest_.  After living and studying in Tlaxcala for
the past three years, I still don't have a firm enough opinion on the
subject to make useful comment about what was the intent of that type of
name.  I would like to point out, however, that Lockhart misread
Maxixcatzin as that it is composed of Maxatl or Maxtli, Ichcatl, Catl and
Tzin and refers to that dynasty's (with origins in Cholula) control of
Ocotelulco's profitable trade in cotton and other goods on the Tabasco
road.  Vulgar word play in names is, nonetheless, very present.  Today a
young student asked me about his last name, Cuatecontzin -- Wooden head
and a good part of Tlalcuapan shares the last name Bello that forty years
ago was Tzontimatzin - Hairy Hand, that they changed to Pelo, i.e. Bello.

best,
Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu  Fri Mar 15 00:08:25 2002
From: ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu (Kevin P Smith)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:08:25 -0800
Subject: sardonic nicknames
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020314163646.25633B-100000@lear.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.160825.0800.KSMITH@UMAIL.UCSB.EDU>

Many thanks to Mark and everyone else who was kind enough to steer me to
_Nahuas After the Conquest_. Yes, that was exactly the reference I had
lost. And thanks also for the tip on Maxixcatzin. I was about to use
it. I'm still working on the character of Ahuachpitzactzin, whose name Joe
Campbell translates as "thin drizzle." It's obvious how this could be a
cradle name, but isn't it also possible that it was more poetic, something
like "fine dew" or "light mist?" Additionally, there are indications
that Ahuachpitzactzin was born under the unfortunate day-sign, Ome
Tochtli, which predisposed one to excesses, especially drunkenness. Could
the name "thin drizzle" have been a Nahua elder's attempt to somehow
lessen the effect of a tonalli more inclined to downpours and floods?

--
Kevin
ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu

On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Mark David Morris wrote:

> Kevin,
>
> Lockhart also included his discussion of sardonic Nahuatl names in his
> _Nahuas After the Conquest_.  After living and studying in Tlaxcala for
> the past three years, I still don't have a firm enough opinion on the
> subject to make useful comment about what was the intent of that type of
> name.  I would like to point out, however, that Lockhart misread
> Maxixcatzin as that it is composed of Maxatl or Maxtli, Ichcatl, Catl and
> Tzin and refers to that dynasty's (with origins in Cholula) control of
> Ocotelulco's profitable trade in cotton and other goods on the Tabasco
> road.  Vulgar word play in names is, nonetheless, very present.  Today a
> young student asked me about his last name, Cuatecontzin -- Wooden head
> and a good part of Tlalcuapan shares the last name Bello that forty years
> ago was Tzontimatzin - Hairy Hand, that they changed to Pelo, i.e. Bello.
>
> best,
> Mark Morris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> La muerte tiene permiso a todo
>
> MDM, PhD Candidate
> Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
>
>
>


From mdmorris at indiana.edu  Fri Mar 15 00:30:51 2002
From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 19:30:51 -0500
Subject: sardonic nicknames
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0203141556140.25176-100000@bergman.umail.ucsb.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.14.MAR.2002.193051.0500.MDMORRIS@INDIANA.EDU>

Kevin and Ernesto et al,

Yes, thin drizzle would tend to mean something like light, scattered dew;
I am not sure exactly how we could make a connection between his day sign
and his name, but please let me know if you make any progress.  Thanks for
the correction on Vello, Ernesto, I thought I had misinterpreted what I
heard, but Vello is unfortunately not part of my active Spanish
vocabulary.  I hope, nonetheless, you caught the word play between
Tzontimatzin and Bello.  I should point out also that Cuatecontzin could
also be translated as something like jar head if you take tecomatl to mean
a clay pot rather than the tecomate tree.

best,
Mark



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Fri Mar 15 17:14:54 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:14:54 -0600
Subject: ixtlahua/debt
Message-ID: <FRI.15.MAR.2002.111454.0600.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

Since this discussion began, I have been intending to write.  As it turns
out, one of the folk tales collected by Pablo Gonzalez Casanova , _Cuentos
Indigenas_ (Mexico: UNAM, 1946) focuses on just this word.  It occurs in
the first tale "Cente coatl ihuan tlacatl."  It tells of a debate between a
man and a snake, very much along the lines of Androcles and the Lion.  In
the European version the lion has a thorn in his paw.  The man, Androcles,
removes the thorn.  Later when Androcles (a Christian) is about to be
killed in the Coliseum by a wild lion, it turns out to be the same one he
had assisted years before, and is thus saved.  In the Nahua version the man
saves a snake who had been trapped under a fallen log.  Upon his removal
the snake proposes to eat the man.  The man protests, but the snake utters
the famous line; "Tle tehua qualli tlacatl, amo ticmati que ce qualli ica
ce amo qualli moxtlahua?"  "But you good man, did you not know that a good
[act] with an evil one is repaid?"  The rest of the story goes on to
demonstrate how a good act is repaid with an evil one.  But the key here is
that this act of repayment, or exchange, all revolves around the verb ixtlahua.

My thanks go to Joe Campbell who made me translate this story as one of my
first reading exercises in Nahuatl some 30 years ago.

J. F. Schwaller


John F. Schwaller
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
315 Behmler Hall
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at mrs.umn.edu


From ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu  Sun Mar 17 23:35:08 2002
From: ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu (Kevin P Smith)
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:35:08 -0800
Subject: tecuichpotzin
Message-ID: <SUN.17.MAR.2002.153508.0800.KSMITH@UMAIL.UCSB.EDU>

Dear Nahuatlatos,

Another name question. In an article on Isabel de Moctezuma, D. Chipman
follows Conway, calling her Tecuichpotzin. Is this a metathetic mispelling
that should be read Tecuipochtzin, meaning "royal young lady" or is there
another possible interpretation?

Secondly, Alva Ixlilxochitl refers to her as Miahuaxoxhitzin. Could
someone please offer a translation of the form /miawa/ ?

Thanks in advance.

--
Kevin Paul Smith
University of California Santa Barbara
ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Mon Mar 18 14:39:29 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 08:39:29 -0600
Subject: miawa (was: tecuichpotzin)
Message-ID: <MON.18.MAR.2002.083929.0600.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

From: Gloster David <David.Gloster at mch20.sbs.de>
To: "'Kevin P Smith'" <ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu>
Cc: "'nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu'" <nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu>
Subject: RE: miawa (was: tecuichpotzin)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 09:08:40 +0100


Hi Kevin,
I know the verb /miawati/ from the modern dialect of Amatlan de los Reyes
in Veracruz (25 years ago).
They used to say "in sentli miawati" (in centli miahuati) when the corn
(maize) plants got the flowers (like a little plume) on the top.
The flower itself was also called /miawatl/. So I assume it means something
like "bloom" or "blossom". That would fit to -xochi- (or as you wrote
-xoxhi-) in the name you mention. So it could mean "blooming flower".
This is only an amateur's guess, so you'd better wait for the experts'
opinions!

Best regards
David Gloster
Ottobrunn, Germany


From david at gloster.net  Mon Mar 18 15:17:30 2002
From: david at gloster.net (david at gloster.net)
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 15:17:30 -0000
Subject: miawa (was: tecuichpotzin)
Message-ID: <MON.18.MAR.2002.151730.0000.>

Note: This message bounced the first time I sent it as I apparently used an e-
mail address other than the one I subscribed from. I appologize if the message
is already irrelevant, but I must try out several addresses to find out which
one works.

Hi Kevin,

I know the verb /miawati/ from the modern dialect of Amatlan de los Reyes in
Veracruz (25 years ago).

They used to say "in sentli miawati" (in centli miahuati) when the corn (maize)
plants got the flowers (like a little plume) on the top.
The flower itself was also called /miawatl/. So I assume it means something
like "bloom" or "blossom". That would fit to -xochi- (or as you wrote -xoxhi-)
in the name you mention. So it could mean "blooming flower".
This is only an amateur's guess, so you'd better wait for the experts' opinions!

Best regards
David Gloster
Ottobrunn, Germany

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin P Smith [mailto:ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu]
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 12:35 AM
To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu
Subject: tecuichpotzin


Dear Nahuatlatos,

Another name question. In an article on Isabel de Moctezuma, D. Chipman
follows Conway, calling her Tecuichpotzin. Is this a metathetic mispelling
that should be read Tecuipochtzin, meaning "royal young lady" or is there
another possible interpretation?

Secondly, Alva Ixlilxochitl refers to her as Miahuaxoxhitzin. Could
someone please offer a translation of the form /miawa/ ?

Thanks in advance.

--
Kevin Paul Smith
University of California Santa Barbara
ksmith at umail.ucsb.edu





.

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From aou at earthlink.net  Fri Mar 29 23:36:29 2002
From: aou at earthlink.net (Irma L. Muniz)
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:36:29 -0600
Subject: Religious History of the Mexika
Message-ID: <FRI.29.MAR.2002.173629.0600.AOU@EARTHLINK.NET>

Please distribute the enclosed writings about
the religious history of our ancestors, the Mexika.

Hermana Xochiquetzal:
     "How clever the Spaniards were in the Sixteenth
Century," said Maura, smiling.  "No sooner had they carried
off the military conquest than they set about the spiritual
conquest.  They destroyed - well, we destroy a culture and
its religion, but we give the conquered people our own
culture invested with Indian symbols - or perhaps we give
them back their own culture with European symbols."
     "That's true.  Here we call her the dark virgin.
That's the difference.  She's not white.  She's the mother
whom the Indian orphans needed.
     She's everything.  Can you imagine anything more
ingenious?  She's a Christian and Indian virgin, but she's
also the virgin of Israel, the Jewish mother of the
long-awaited Messiah.  On top of that, she has an Arabic
name, Guadalupe River of Wolves.  How may cultures for the
price of a single image!"
                Carlos Fuentes.  Revolutionary Mexico.
                The Years with Laura Diaz.  1999.

It is our duty and obligation as elders of the Sixth Sun
to re-educate our youth about our Mexika (me-shee-ka)
spirituality.  Our spirituality and spirits of love and
liberation are altars in our hearts.  Present religious
practices and discipline would never compare to the
spirituality of our Mexika past.  Imagine, even after
500 years of oppression, how we continue to spread the
truth of our most powerful cultural foundation, which
is Mexicayotl.  We must remember that in reality the
conquest of 1521 eventually became a religious war.
>From the moment the Catholics landed in Mexico, they
tried to force their doctrine on those who would not
convert.  The same Mexikas in the 21st Century refuse
to convert to the Democratic or Republican parities.
Our ancestors were inseparable from their spirituality.
Leaving their faith was the same as giving up their
identities as human beings.    It is written and revealed
that our last Mexika King, Cuauhtemoc, on
August 12, 1521, spoke before our ancient ancestors
for the last time.  Yes, we were there.  He directed
the Mexika "Tlamatinine," the wise people, to take
refuge in Tenochtitlan's impenetrable mountains,
jungles, and caves, to save our spiritual traditions.
Our beloved brother Marcos is presently continuing the
same, and we of the Sixth Sun, who are confined in the
dungeons of Christianity, also continue to enlighten
and preserve our ancient spirituality of liberation,
justice, and the return of Aztlan.
     It is revealed that before the conquest, before
the religious war of two cultures, Tepeyacac had been
the site of the great temple of the earth goddess,
Coatlique.  Our ancient ancestors have always called
her Tonantzin, our most revered mother.
"Tlamatinine," our wise men, knew from the beginning
that Tepeyacac would be the physical center on earth
for the end of the Fifth Sun and the birth of the
Sixth Sun.
     The appearance of La Virgen de Guadalupe was
inevitable during the time of massive genocide
committed against our people in Cem-Anahuac.  Her
appearances to Cuauhtlatoahtzin (Juan Diego), were
the same -- as if Tonantzin had appeared to create
a social, political, and spiritual movement for the
present and future.
      Our ancient ancestors claimed her appearances
as one of land, children, and liberation from the
oppressor (Spaniards). Our beloved Mexika king,
Cuauhtemoc, spoke of these religious spiritual
appearances, and then there was silence.  Our Mexika
ancestors understood that the world they knew, the
Fifth Sun, was coming to an end.  They have been in
silence ever since.
     Even today our indigenous brothers and sisters
from the Holy Land pray in Nahuatl.  It is a language
that bridges different states of awareness.
     What is the lesson from this past, religious
history?  Our lesson is that the true story of La
Virgen de Guadalupe is finally beginning to surface
after nearly 500 years of silence.  That a Mexika man
formed a spiritual movement to save the faith and
culture of his people in the most dangerous of
times (1531).  That Aztlan, our sustenance and place
where heaven comes to earth, will give birth to the
Sixth Sun.  That we, Mexikas of the Sixth Sun, can
begin to restore cosmic harmony among ourselves.  That
Tepeyacac can be an altar in our hearts, creating life,
emotion, personality, and human creativity.  That our
present spiritual Mexika struggle in Aztlan takes us
back to the great migration -- our search for a spiritual
home and time of wandering and purification.  That Aztlan
is a place of sacred energy which gives us, the Mexikas,
a foundation and place to organize for the benefit of our
people and the earth.  It is a place where the earth can
be redeemed, regenerated, and reborn.  That the Sixth Sun
requires our active participation and cooperation.
Ometeotl, Tonantzin, and the gods are once again giving us
the opportunity to bring our spiritual dream into being.
That Cuauhtemoc was born and trained for a single purpose
which was to take the culture of the Mexika (Fifth Sun)
underground, until it would rise again (Sixth Sun).  He
is the guardian of the great treasure of the Mexika.  This
treasure is the cosmic vision that is encoded in Mexika
culture and spirituality.  That we have remained in bondage
for far too long, and now we must rise in the power of the
Sixth Sun.  That we must take the stance of a proud and
noble warrior spiritual race of the Sixth Sun.  That we face
the winds of change and demand that the position we hold in
history be updated and rectified.  The record reflects that
we are children of God who are chosen for rising of the
Sixth Sun. We are now reborn and reformed, and re-sworn.
We rise up to our fullest potentials, and we are not
Hispanic or Latin!  We are Mexikan of the Sixth Sun of Aztlan!

"Mihtoh, mocmihuaz, ninetoltia."
It is said, it will be done.  I promise.

                    In exile,
                    Ramsey Muniz - Tezcatlipoca
*************************************************************
                    www.freeramsey.com
*************************************************************
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