From jsullivan3 at mac.com  Wed May  1 02:50:06 2002
From: jsullivan3 at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 21:50:06 -0500
Subject: Xiccuepili
Message-ID: <TUE.30.APR.2002.215006.0500.JSULLIVAN3@MAC.COM>

Thanks Sergio,
    The only difference I would have with your parse is that the "k" object
is indirect, not direct. Since "cuepa" is transitive, it would take a direct
or reflexive pronoun without the need for the applicative suffix. The
presence if the applicative here indicates the presence of an indirect
object, and thus, the surprising equivalence with the Mexican Spanish "le"
in "córrele", "apúrale", etc. Also the "leismo" ("le" used as a human direct
object pronoun) of peninsular Spanish is not used in México.
    John

On 4/29/02 10:23 PM, "sromero at tulane.edu" <sromero at tulane.edu> wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> It seems that this is what is going on:
>
> The verb [kwepa] is transitive in Nahuatl and hence it is used in the
> reflexive
> to mean "come back". However, Nahuatl allows idiomatic non-reflexive uses,
> including one with the applicative suffix. This, I think,  is what your
> asistant is doing. The correct parsing would be more or less as follows:
>
> xi-k-kwep-i-li
> HO-DO-return-E-APP
>
> where HO = Hortative, imperative
>     DO = 3rd Sing. direct object
>     E = Epenthetic vowel
>     APP = Applicative suffix
>
> It is more or less equivalent to colloquial Spanish "Regresale!", meaning
> "come
> back". Notice that the Spanish uses the dative marker "le" instead of
> accusative "lo", exactly like Nahuatl in which the same nuance in expressed
> the
> applicative.
>
> Whether the construction is originally Nahuatl and then spread into Spanish, I
> do not know. It is common in Guatemala as well.
>
> I hope that helps.
>
> Sergio Romero
>
> Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." <jsullivan3 at mac.com>:
>


From jsullivan3 at mac.com  Sat May 11 17:43:22 2002
From: jsullivan3 at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 12:43:22 -0500
Subject: Yot,ponoy, etc.
Message-ID: <SAT.11.MAY.2002.124322.0500.JSULLIVAN3@MAC.COM>

Does anybody know what language these numbers come from? The "y"s have a
dieresis over them, and there are some accents.
1. yot
2. ponoy
3. jopin
4. zovoots
5. hanazuhi (accent over the "i")
6. jaquen
7. mine (accent over the "e")
8. cautta (accent over the "a")
9. vohe (accent over the "e")
10. ecuque (accent over the first "u")

John Sullivan
Instituto de Docencia e Investigación
Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C.
Av. Guerrero 227, int.12
Centro Histórico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
México
Tel (492) 922-1709
Fax (492) 922-9848
idiez at mac.com
www.idiez.org.mx


From jsullivan3 at mac.com  Sun May 12 17:19:00 2002
From: jsullivan3 at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 12:19:00 -0500
Subject: Yet, ponoy, etc.
Message-ID: <SUN.12.MAY.2002.121900.0500.JSULLIVAN3@MAC.COM>

On the tip from David Sanchez (thanks), I went to Mark Rosefelder's page and
located the following information:
1. Numbers 1, 2 and 3 are found in the section, Penutian/ Californian/
Yokutsan (I mistakenly gave the first number as "yot". After reexamining the
manuscript, I see that it is "yet"
2. Number 6: Penutian/ Californian/ Miwok-Castanoan/ Castanoan/ Northern
3. Numbers 8, 9, and 10: Penutian/ Californian/ Miwok-Castanoan/ Miwok/
Eastern/ Plains+
4. I can't find the numbers 4, 5, and 7.

This is from a colonial manuscript found recently in Zacatecas. It is a very
short (6-7 pages) eclesiastical document in an indigenous language with a
short Spanish translated vocabulary of body parts and questions (¿Cuántas
veces? ¿Qué quieres? ¿Qué te duele?) at the end.

John Sullivan


From jsullivan3 at mac.com  Tue May 14 16:27:14 2002
From: jsullivan3 at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:27:14 -0500
Subject: Top=?ISO-8859-1?B?8w==?=nimos de Zacatecas
Message-ID: <TUE.14.MAY.2002.112714.0500.JSULLIVAN3@MAC.COM>

I've been given a list of indigenous toponyms from Zacatecas to work out.
Any comments are welcome. The three columns are the actual toponym, the
standardized nahua spelling, and the translation. The asterisk means I can't
even guess.

apozol        apoczol          vapor viejo (¿fétido?)
apulco        apolco          en el agua grande (¿un río?)
atolinga      atolincan       ???
chalchihuites  chalchihuitl   piedra verde-azul
huanusco      quanochco       en el tunal (quanochtli: un tipo de tuna)
jalpa         xalpan          sobre la arena
teul          teotl           dios
juchipila     xochipillan     entre las florecitas
              xochipillan     junto a Xochipilli
mazapil       mazapil         venadito
*momax        ???             ???
moyahua       moyahuac        enturbiado (río crecido)
nochistlan    nocheztlan      entre la grana cochinilla
panuco        panoco          en el vado
susticacan    xochticacan     lugar lindo
*tabasco      ???             ???
tepechitlan   tepecxitlan      al pie del cerro
              tepechitlan      entre la verbena
tepetongo     tepetonco        en el cerrito
tlaltenango   tlaltenanco      en los muros de tierra

 John Sullivan


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Thu May 16 19:34:38 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 14:34:38 -0500
Subject: Translators
Message-ID: <THU.16.MAY.2002.143438.0500.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

In the past two weeks I have received at least 5 requests for Nahuatl
translators.  I imagine that these people want individuals who speak
Nahuatl, although I know in at least one case they were interested in
having written material translated into Nahuatl.

If any of you are interested in the opportunities, do not reply to this
message, please send me a message offline (schwallr at mrs.umn.edu) and I will
include you in a database that I can provide to folks who make these queries.

J. F. Schwaller
List owner


John F. Schwaller
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
315 Behmler Hall
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at mrs.umn.edu


From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Thu May 30 16:52:12 2002
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 11:52:12 -0500
Subject: HMAI supplement
Message-ID: <THU.30.MAY.2002.115212.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Listeros:

If any of you have come across manuscripts with alphabetic texts in Otomi, or native pictorial manuscripts from otomi-speaking towns, I would appreciate hearing from you. I'm currently compiling a database of such material for a forthcoming supplement to the Handbook of Middle American Indians; general editors are Michel Oudijk y María Castañeda de la Paz, both of the Institute of History of Religions, Copenhagen.

In return for your colaboration all I can offer is a mention in the list of collaborators and marking catalogue entries with the initials of their authors.

If anybody has material of this sort, I propose the following course of action, to avoid duplicating our efforts: I would like to receive a brief note mentioning the material that should be included, of which you have reproductions or access to originals, together with the signatures. If this material is not yet in my data base I will send models for writing up the catalogue entries. One of the fields is a transcription of the first two or three lines of text; if this is a problem (Otomi has a lot of strange phonemes) I can work together with you on this.

The idea is to put together a catalogue as complete as possible, to support future studies of indigenous manuscripts in Otomi and other languages.

Sincerely,

David Wright
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From jsullivan3 at mac.com  Wed May  1 02:50:06 2002
From: jsullivan3 at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 21:50:06 -0500
Subject: Xiccuepili
Message-ID: <TUE.30.APR.2002.215006.0500.JSULLIVAN3@MAC.COM>

Thanks Sergio,
    The only difference I would have with your parse is that the "k" object
is indirect, not direct. Since "cuepa" is transitive, it would take a direct
or reflexive pronoun without the need for the applicative suffix. The
presence if the applicative here indicates the presence of an indirect
object, and thus, the surprising equivalence with the Mexican Spanish "le"
in "c?rrele", "ap?rale", etc. Also the "leismo" ("le" used as a human direct
object pronoun) of peninsular Spanish is not used in M?xico.
    John

On 4/29/02 10:23 PM, "sromero at tulane.edu" <sromero at tulane.edu> wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> It seems that this is what is going on:
>
> The verb [kwepa] is transitive in Nahuatl and hence it is used in the
> reflexive
> to mean "come back". However, Nahuatl allows idiomatic non-reflexive uses,
> including one with the applicative suffix. This, I think,  is what your
> asistant is doing. The correct parsing would be more or less as follows:
>
> xi-k-kwep-i-li
> HO-DO-return-E-APP
>
> where HO = Hortative, imperative
>     DO = 3rd Sing. direct object
>     E = Epenthetic vowel
>     APP = Applicative suffix
>
> It is more or less equivalent to colloquial Spanish "Regresale!", meaning
> "come
> back". Notice that the Spanish uses the dative marker "le" instead of
> accusative "lo", exactly like Nahuatl in which the same nuance in expressed
> the
> applicative.
>
> Whether the construction is originally Nahuatl and then spread into Spanish, I
> do not know. It is common in Guatemala as well.
>
> I hope that helps.
>
> Sergio Romero
>
> Quoting "John Sullivan, Ph.D." <jsullivan3 at mac.com>:
>


From jsullivan3 at mac.com  Sat May 11 17:43:22 2002
From: jsullivan3 at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 12:43:22 -0500
Subject: Yot,ponoy, etc.
Message-ID: <SAT.11.MAY.2002.124322.0500.JSULLIVAN3@MAC.COM>

Does anybody know what language these numbers come from? The "y"s have a
dieresis over them, and there are some accents.
1. yot
2. ponoy
3. jopin
4. zovoots
5. hanazuhi (accent over the "i")
6. jaquen
7. mine (accent over the "e")
8. cautta (accent over the "a")
9. vohe (accent over the "e")
10. ecuque (accent over the first "u")

John Sullivan
Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n
Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C.
Av. Guerrero 227, int.12
Centro Hist?rico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
M?xico
Tel (492) 922-1709
Fax (492) 922-9848
idiez at mac.com
www.idiez.org.mx


From jsullivan3 at mac.com  Sun May 12 17:19:00 2002
From: jsullivan3 at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 12:19:00 -0500
Subject: Yet, ponoy, etc.
Message-ID: <SUN.12.MAY.2002.121900.0500.JSULLIVAN3@MAC.COM>

On the tip from David Sanchez (thanks), I went to Mark Rosefelder's page and
located the following information:
1. Numbers 1, 2 and 3 are found in the section, Penutian/ Californian/
Yokutsan (I mistakenly gave the first number as "yot". After reexamining the
manuscript, I see that it is "yet"
2. Number 6: Penutian/ Californian/ Miwok-Castanoan/ Castanoan/ Northern
3. Numbers 8, 9, and 10: Penutian/ Californian/ Miwok-Castanoan/ Miwok/
Eastern/ Plains+
4. I can't find the numbers 4, 5, and 7.

This is from a colonial manuscript found recently in Zacatecas. It is a very
short (6-7 pages) eclesiastical document in an indigenous language with a
short Spanish translated vocabulary of body parts and questions (?Cu?ntas
veces? ?Qu? quieres? ?Qu? te duele?) at the end.

John Sullivan


From jsullivan3 at mac.com  Tue May 14 16:27:14 2002
From: jsullivan3 at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:27:14 -0500
Subject: Top=?ISO-8859-1?B?8w==?=nimos de Zacatecas
Message-ID: <TUE.14.MAY.2002.112714.0500.JSULLIVAN3@MAC.COM>

I've been given a list of indigenous toponyms from Zacatecas to work out.
Any comments are welcome. The three columns are the actual toponym, the
standardized nahua spelling, and the translation. The asterisk means I can't
even guess.

apozol        apoczol          vapor viejo (?f?tido?)
apulco        apolco          en el agua grande (?un r?o?)
atolinga      atolincan       ???
chalchihuites  chalchihuitl   piedra verde-azul
huanusco      quanochco       en el tunal (quanochtli: un tipo de tuna)
jalpa         xalpan          sobre la arena
teul          teotl           dios
juchipila     xochipillan     entre las florecitas
              xochipillan     junto a Xochipilli
mazapil       mazapil         venadito
*momax        ???             ???
moyahua       moyahuac        enturbiado (r?o crecido)
nochistlan    nocheztlan      entre la grana cochinilla
panuco        panoco          en el vado
susticacan    xochticacan     lugar lindo
*tabasco      ???             ???
tepechitlan   tepecxitlan      al pie del cerro
              tepechitlan      entre la verbena
tepetongo     tepetonco        en el cerrito
tlaltenango   tlaltenanco      en los muros de tierra

 John Sullivan


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Thu May 16 19:34:38 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 14:34:38 -0500
Subject: Translators
Message-ID: <THU.16.MAY.2002.143438.0500.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

In the past two weeks I have received at least 5 requests for Nahuatl
translators.  I imagine that these people want individuals who speak
Nahuatl, although I know in at least one case they were interested in
having written material translated into Nahuatl.

If any of you are interested in the opportunities, do not reply to this
message, please send me a message offline (schwallr at mrs.umn.edu) and I will
include you in a database that I can provide to folks who make these queries.

J. F. Schwaller
List owner


John F. Schwaller
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
315 Behmler Hall
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at mrs.umn.edu


From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx  Thu May 30 16:52:12 2002
From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 11:52:12 -0500
Subject: HMAI supplement
Message-ID: <THU.30.MAY.2002.115212.0500.DCWRIGHT@PRODIGY.NET.MX>

Listeros:

If any of you have come across manuscripts with alphabetic texts in Otomi, or native pictorial manuscripts from otomi-speaking towns, I would appreciate hearing from you. I'm currently compiling a database of such material for a forthcoming supplement to the Handbook of Middle American Indians; general editors are Michel Oudijk y Mar?a Casta?eda de la Paz, both of the Institute of History of Religions, Copenhagen.

In return for your colaboration all I can offer is a mention in the list of collaborators and marking catalogue entries with the initials of their authors.

If anybody has material of this sort, I propose the following course of action, to avoid duplicating our efforts: I would like to receive a brief note mentioning the material that should be included, of which you have reproductions or access to originals, together with the signatures. If this material is not yet in my data base I will send models for writing up the catalogue entries. One of the fields is a transcription of the first two or three lines of text; if this is a problem (Otomi has a lot of strange phonemes) I can work together with you on this.

The idea is to put together a catalogue as complete as possible, to support future studies of indigenous manuscripts in Otomi and other languages.

Sincerely,

David Wright
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