From dgomez at abqpubco.com  Mon Nov  4 15:41:07 2002
From: dgomez at abqpubco.com (David Gomez)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:41:07 +0000
Subject: Question
Message-ID: <MON.4.NOV.2002.154107.0000.DGOMEZ@ABQPUBCO.COM>

Would the following be correct:

kikmaka - give it to him
xikikmaka - you give it to him (command)
tlaxikikmaka - you please give it to him
kiknankilli - answer him

are these even close? any help would be greatly appreciated.

Tlazokamati


From campbel at indiana.edu  Tue Nov  5 01:45:34 2002
From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 20:45:34 -0500
Subject: Question
In-Reply-To: <3DC69512.17B3BAC8@abqpubco.com>
Message-ID: <MON.4.NOV.2002.204534.0500.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

David,
   I put some comments in your original message below (marked with ***).
In a world where there are adherents of Pepsi and Coke, Classic and Diet,
Mac and PC, etc., there are users of Hispanic orthography and "phonetic"
orthography.  Although I'm a PC user who drinks Classic Coke and uses a
17th century Hispanic orthography, I'll spell things with your k's. |8-)



On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, David Gomez wrote:

> Would the following be correct:
>
> 1. kikmaka - give it to him

*** For me, 1 and 2 mean the same thing in English.   I'm guessing that
you mean "he gives it to him", which is:
  kimaka

> 2. xikikmaka - you give it to him (command)

*** The object in the environment of a preceding vowel within the same
word is 'k':
  xikmaka

> 3. tlaxikikmaka - you please give it to him

*** 'Tla' is a separate word, literally meaning "if", but it is used in
commands for politeness, a softener:
  tla xikmaka

> 4. kiknankilli - answer him

***  The stem for "answer" is 'na:nquilia:' (':' marks long vowels) and
the final vowel is deleted in the command form, so the form is:
  xikna:nkili
   The double 'll' doesn't occur in Nahuatl stems, even though double 'll'
is frequent in words.  This is because 'll' is formed in the following
juxtapositions:

   l + tl
   l + y


   The problem about 'kik' is probably caused by the fact that the third
person singular object is either 'k' or 'ki'.  Which of these forms is
used is determined by what precedes 'k(i)' within the word.  If what
precedes is something that ends in a consonant (i.e., 'n-', 't-', 'an-',
or 'x'), then 'ki' must be used because a Nahuatl syllable cannot end in
two consonants.  If nothing precedes 'k(i)', then 'ki' must also be used
for the same reason.  Otherwise 'k' is used:

     correct         incorrect

     nikmaka         nkmaka
     tikmaka         tkmaka
     xikmaka         xkmaka
     ankimaka        ankmaka

     kimaka          kmaka


From Ian.Robertson at asu.edu  Tue Nov  5 19:32:40 2002
From: Ian.Robertson at asu.edu (Ian.Robertson at asu.edu)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 12:32:40 -0700
Subject: Andrews
Message-ID: <TUE.5.NOV.2002.123240.0700.>

I just noted with great interest that the "Introduction to Classical
Nahuatl" is listed by Amazon.com as available in March 2003, from U of
Oklahoma Press. Does anyone know anything about this reprinting of Andrews,
and is the workbook being reprinted as well?

Thanks, Ian

Ian G. Robertson
Department of Anthropology
Brigham Young University
954 SWKT
Provo, UT 84602


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Tue Nov 12 22:33:28 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:33:28 -0600
Subject: Fwd: Me: Looking for Indigenous Language Speakers
Message-ID: <TUE.12.NOV.2002.163328.0600.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

>Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:22:39 -0500
>Reply-To: Sharon Mujica <smujica at email.unc.edu>
>Sender: Pre-Columbian History <AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
>From: Sharon Mujica <smujica at email.unc.edu>
>Subject: Me: Looking for Indigenous Language Speakers
>To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU
>
>
>Interpreters need for indigenous languages:
>
>Our most pressing needs are:
>Mam, Quiche, Mixtec, Zapotec, and Konjobal; however we would also
>be interested in finding people who know Aguacateco, Cachiquel,
>Chuj, Chinanteco, Ixil, Jacalteco, Kekchi, Misquito,  Nahuatl,
>Quiche Achi, Quechua, Rahinal Achi, Tectiteco, Trique, and
>Tzotzil. Our interpreters work on an indpendent-contract, or
>freelance basis.  They must have permanent resident status or be
>US citizens.  If you can direct me to anyone who might be
>interested I would greatly appreciate it.
>
>Thanks for your help.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Peggy Kane
>Regional Program Coordinator
>Bowne Global Solutions
>1730 Rhode Island Avenue, Suite 308
>Washington, DC 20036
>peggy.kane at bowneglobal.com
>Tel: 202-331-1887 x142
>          888-241-9149 x142
>Fax: 202.496.0868


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Mon Nov 18 14:45:02 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:45:02 -0600
Subject: Utah actually Aztlan?
Message-ID: <MON.18.NOV.2002.084502.0600.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

One graduate student seems to thing that Utah is actually Aztlan

http://www.sltrib.com/11172002/utah/17461.htm



John F. Schwaller
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
315 Behmler Hall
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at mrs.umn.edu


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Tue Nov 26 15:13:38 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:13:38 -0600
Subject: Fwd: INFO: Nahuatl classes
Message-ID: <TUE.26.NOV.2002.091338.0600.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

>From: crosenm at tulane.edu
>Date: November 25, 2002
>
>Neteros,
>
>for those interested in taking Nahuatl classes, Pablo Flores Aguilar has been
>teaching Nahuatl and some Zapotec in Mexico City for a while. He is flexible,
>lots of fun and his prices are moderate.
>
>I have taken a class with him for about 7 months and I have learned plenty,
>Pablo can tell you what is right and wrong (in Nahuatl, of course) and also
>why, i.e. how the language functions.
>
>Pablo is currently finishing his MA in linguistics of indigenous languages at
>the Escuela Nacional de Antropología in the D.F. He also speaks some English.
>You may contact him at
>
>
>cell phone: 044 55 25562451
>
>home phone: 56458764
>
>Country code for Mexico is 52.
>
>Best,
>Christoph Rosenmuller
>Doctoral Candidate
>Tulane University


From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com  Thu Nov 28 20:20:26 2002
From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 15:20:26 EST
Subject: Aztlan in Utah?
Message-ID: <THU.28.NOV.2002.152026.EST.>

Greetings,

    A friend sent me this from the Native News. I hope it is of interest to
some.

                                            Henry Vasquez
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------

Subj:    [NativeNews] Bits of History Suggest Utah Is Location of Mythic
Aztlan
Date:   Sunday, November 17, 2002 8:48:41 AM
From:   senior-staff at nativenewsonline.org
To:     NatNews at yahoogroups.com

From:   senior-staff at nativenewsonline.org (Ishgooda, Senior Staff)
Reply-to:   NatNews-owner at yahoogroups.com
To: NatNews at yahoogroups.com

from "Jess Hansen" via ndn-aim list


Bits of History Suggest Utah Is Location of Mythic Aztlan

Sunday, November 17, 2002

By TIM SULLIVAN

The Salt Lake Tribune

http://www.sltrib.com


{{PHOTO : "University of Utah professor Armando Sol-rzano holds a

replica of an official map of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo from 1847 that

identifies Utah as the homeland of the Aztecs. The Aztecs left the mythic

Aztlan, which some scholars say is present-day Utah, to build a civilization

in the Valley of Mexico.}}



It was a map drawn in 1768 by a Spaniard in Paris that sent Roberto Rodriguez
running toward Aztlan.


As a Mexican American, Rodriguez long had pondered the historical location of
Aztlan, the mythic homeland of the Aztecs. Six years ago, he and his wife,
Patrisia Gonzales, found tantalizing directions in Don Joseph Antonio Alzate
y Ramirez's map of North America.


Where present-day Utah would be, and next to a large body of water called
"Laguna de Teguyo," are the words: "From these desert contours, the Mexican
Indians were said to have left to found their empire."


That cryptic message is one clue among many -- a petroglyph etched on a
sandstone wall in eastern Utah's Sego Canyon, an 1847 United States map
highlighting the confluences of the Colorado, Green and San Juan rivers in
southern Utah, a mound and more petroglyphs just outside Vernal -- that have
researchers considering a new angle on the history of the southwestern United
States.


"Some don't believe [Aztlan] was true, like Atlantis or the Garden of Eden,"
says Roger Blomquist, a doctoral student at the University of Nebraska at
Lincoln. "But I'm convinced it's in Utah. The evidence is very compelling.
It's building a mosaic that supports that thesis."


Since the 1960s and '70s civil rights movement, Chicano activists have used
the name Aztlan to describe the American Southwest as a northern homeland for
Americans of Mexican heritage. But for much longer, people all over the world
have been trying to pinpoint the historical location of the legendary place
the Aztecs left to build their civilization in the Valley of Mexico.


Rodriguez says Aztlan's literal and figurative meanings are both relevant to
his search.


"People would always tell us to 'go back to where we came from,' " Rodriguez
says. "Then we came up with this map. Our work is about whether we belong or
not."


Western scholars, Catholic clergy, Chicano activists and even the Aztecs
themselves have been seeking Aztlan for more than 500 years. They have put
much of their energy into gleaning facts from the story that tells of a
people emerging from the bowels of the earth through seven caves and settling
on an island called Aztlan, translated as "place of the egrets," or "place of
whiteness."


Acting upon a command from a spirit, these people left Aztlan and went south
until they came upon an eagle devouring a serpent in the present-day location
of Mexico City, where historical records suggest they founded the city
Tenochtitlan in the 14th century. But in 1433, Aztec leaders burned the
picture books that recounted the migration to the Valley of Mexico, leaving
only oral tradition and the name Aztlan.


The Aztec king Motecuhzoma I was probably the first to investigate seriously
the location of Aztlan. In the 1440s, he sent 60 magicians north for a
journey that itself became a legend -- according to chronicler Diego Duran,
these pilgrims encountered a supernatural being who transformed them into
birds, and they flew to Aztlan.


After the Spanish conquered the Aztecs in the early 16th century, they began
studying the Aztecs' origins. Francisco Clavijero, a Jesuit priest, in 1789
deduced that Aztlan lay north of the Colorado River. Other Mexican, European
and American historians put Aztlan in the Mexican state of Michoacan,
Florida, California, even Wisconsin. Many others deny it ever existed.


But perhaps the most widely accepted historical location of Aztlan is that
proposed by historian Alfredo Chavero in 1887. Retracing Nu-o de Guzman's
1530 expedition north from the Valley of Mexico, Chavero deduced that Aztlan
was an island off the coast of the Mexican state of Nayarit called
Mexcaltitlan.


Modern-day scholars who favor Utah as an Aztec homeland use some of these
studies and chronicles to advance their theories, which range geographically
from Salt Lake Valley to the Uinta Mountains to the Colorado Plateau. But
each of these researchers also seems to have his or her own trump card.


Rodriguez's curiosity originally was spurred by a copy of an 1847 map of the
boundaries drawn by the Treaty of Guadalupe Hildalgo, but quickly expanded to
"a hundred others," including the chart Alzate y Ramirez created for the
Royal Academy of Sciences in Paris. The maps touched off "Aztlanahuac," a
project by Rodriguez and Gonzales, newspaper columnists whose work appears in
The Tribune, that has spawned one book with two more on the way.


Aztlanahuac led them to gather oral histories on migration from Native
Americans throughout the Southwest. Believing that the "Laguna de Teguyo" had
to be the Great Salt Lake, the San Antonio couple also traveled to Antelope
Island four years ago. There, Rodriguez asked a state park ranger how many
caves the island had. The ranger's reply was, of course, seven.


Blomquist, a doctoral candidate in American Frontier History whose
dissertation explores Aztec origins in Utah, focuses on the Uinta Mountains.
He believes that Aztecs, who would have heard ancestral stories, advised
17th-century Spanish prospectors to look for gold in northeastern Utah.


Blomquist also cites a "natural temple site" in the Uintas near Vernal. He
says there is a 200-foot-high mound with footsteps carved into it and an
altar-sized boulder at its base that mirrors temples he has seen in Mexico,
such as Monte Alban outside of Oaxaca.


On a rock at the site are petroglyphs of a warrior and his family that
Blomquist says don't resemble rock art of the Fremont people known to have
inhabited Utah. And the warrior is carrying a long sword-like object that
broadens to a blunt end, like a cleaver, which Blomquist likens to a
Mesoamerican weapon called a macana.


Then there is Cecilio Orozco, a retired California State University at Fresno
education professor who has observed that petroglyphs in Sego Canyon, about
30 miles east of Green River, correspond to the Aztec calendar's mathematical
formula of five orbits of Venus for every eight Earth years. On one of the
canyon's sandstone walls are two petroglyphs of knotted string, one with five
strings hanging down, the other eight.


In conjunction with his mentor, Alfonso Rivas-Salmon, Orozco theorizes that
southern Utah is not Aztlan but the earlier homeland of "Nahuatl," the land
of "four waters," where the Colorado, Green and San Juan rivers meet to pour
through the Grand Canyon (Nahuatl is also the name of the Aztecs' language.).
The 1847 treaty map also points to southern Utah as the "Ancient Homeland of
the Aztecs."


Along those lines, Belgian scholar Antoon Leon Vollemaere believes he has
pinpointed the location of Aztlan on either Wilson or Grey Mesa, where the
Colorado and San Juan meet under Lake Powell.


Researchers also cite the close connection between the languages of the
Aztecs and the Ute Indians in the "Uto-Aztecan" linguistic group, as well as
the coincidence that the Anasazi culture began to decline at about the same
time the Aztecs' ancestors were supposed to have left Aztlan.


While the pile of evidence that the Aztecs came from somewhere in Utah may
seem high, more skeptical scholars like Northern Arizona University
archaeologist Kelley Hays-Gilpin put things into perspective.


Hays-Gilpin acknowledges the linguistic connection between the Aztecs and
Utes as well as economic interaction between Mesoamerican and North American
peoples. But she offers a twist on the overall migration scheme -- the
Aztecs' ancestors may have moved north before moving south.


Hays-Gilpin believes that people speaking a proto-Uto-Aztecan language
domesticated maize in central Mexico more than 5,000 years ago, and
consequently spread north to an area of the American West that could have
included Utah. Out of that multitude of cultures, some groups could have
migrated south to northern Mexico, and some of those could have, as she says,
"moved to the Valley of Mexico and subjugated some of the confused and
bedraggled remnants of the latest 'regime change.'"


This concept resonates with Utah Division of Indian Affairs Director Forrest
Cuch, a member of the Northern Ute Tribe, who remembers his grandmother
telling him his people came from the south. Could the Utes and the Aztecs'
ancestors also have lived in close contact in modern-day Utah?


"I'm open to it," Cuch says, "because so little is known about the past."


As such, it would be almost impossible to prove the historical location of
Aztlan, but Roberto Rodriguez says clearing the mist surrounding the myth may
not be so important anyway.


While treading the path of his Aztlanahuac project, Rodriguez began to
uncover a history of mass migration akin to the one Hays-Gilpin suggests. For
him and Gonzales, understanding the larger scheme of historical movement
throughout North America became more vital than deconstructing one elusive
origin story.


"[Finding a location] has almost become irrelevant," he says. "Now, we have a
bigger understanding, that the whole continent is connected. You have all
these stories of people going back and forth."


Rodriguez says all that migration is most significant for Mexican Americans,
and for the thousands of people now moving from Mexico to the United States,
because it affords them and subsequent generations an answer when someone
says, "go back where you came from."


"I just hope kids at school some day will at least be shown these maps," he
says.


University of Utah ethnic studies professor Armando Sol-rzano has tailored
the Aztlan concept to fit Utah, which is experiencing its own influx of
Mexican immigrants.


Sol-rzano, a native Guadalajaran, has his own reasoning as to why Utah was a
point of departure for the Aztecs -- that the geographical characteristics of
Salt Lake Valley resemble those of Mexico City -- but his interpretation of
Aztlan is, like Rodriguez's, a broader one.


Sol-rzano tells of arriving in Utah 12 years ago and seeing the Wasatch
Mountains and the Great Salt Lake. "I said, 'My God, this is Aztlan.' I felt
a spiritual unity with the land, something I had never felt before outside
Mexico."


He compares the concept of Aztlan as a sacred land of harmony with that of
Zion in the Mormon tradition. The similarities, he says, show that both
cultures are searching for a common goal. Sol-rzano calls his Utah adaptation
of Aztlan "Utaztlan."


Had Sol-rzano's own migration path taken him to a different part of the
United States, his concept of Aztlan likely would be different. Still, he
shares his sense of the myth's importance with people of Mexican heritage all
over the country.


"What is happening now is we are returning," Sol-rzano says. "This is an
opportunity to rewrite history and make justice."



© Copyright 2002, The Salt Lake Tribune


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

[If you got here from frontpage Native News Online, click here to return:
http://216.97.43.231/ ]

COMMENTS?

http://nativenewsonline.org/Guestbook/guestbook.cgi

Escribe archives

http://escribe.com/culture/native_news/

http://207.126.116.12/culture/native_news/

Reprinted under the Fair Use http://nativenewsonline.org/fairuse.htm

<<<<<>>>>>

Tsonkwadiyonrat (We are ONE Spirit)

http://nativenewsonline.org/

Native News Online

a Service of Barefoot Connection


From dgomez at abqpubco.com  Mon Nov  4 15:41:07 2002
From: dgomez at abqpubco.com (David Gomez)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:41:07 +0000
Subject: Question
Message-ID: <MON.4.NOV.2002.154107.0000.DGOMEZ@ABQPUBCO.COM>

Would the following be correct:

kikmaka - give it to him
xikikmaka - you give it to him (command)
tlaxikikmaka - you please give it to him
kiknankilli - answer him

are these even close? any help would be greatly appreciated.

Tlazokamati


From campbel at indiana.edu  Tue Nov  5 01:45:34 2002
From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 20:45:34 -0500
Subject: Question
In-Reply-To: <3DC69512.17B3BAC8@abqpubco.com>
Message-ID: <MON.4.NOV.2002.204534.0500.CAMPBEL@INDIANA.EDU>

David,
   I put some comments in your original message below (marked with ***).
In a world where there are adherents of Pepsi and Coke, Classic and Diet,
Mac and PC, etc., there are users of Hispanic orthography and "phonetic"
orthography.  Although I'm a PC user who drinks Classic Coke and uses a
17th century Hispanic orthography, I'll spell things with your k's. |8-)



On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, David Gomez wrote:

> Would the following be correct:
>
> 1. kikmaka - give it to him

*** For me, 1 and 2 mean the same thing in English.   I'm guessing that
you mean "he gives it to him", which is:
  kimaka

> 2. xikikmaka - you give it to him (command)

*** The object in the environment of a preceding vowel within the same
word is 'k':
  xikmaka

> 3. tlaxikikmaka - you please give it to him

*** 'Tla' is a separate word, literally meaning "if", but it is used in
commands for politeness, a softener:
  tla xikmaka

> 4. kiknankilli - answer him

***  The stem for "answer" is 'na:nquilia:' (':' marks long vowels) and
the final vowel is deleted in the command form, so the form is:
  xikna:nkili
   The double 'll' doesn't occur in Nahuatl stems, even though double 'll'
is frequent in words.  This is because 'll' is formed in the following
juxtapositions:

   l + tl
   l + y


   The problem about 'kik' is probably caused by the fact that the third
person singular object is either 'k' or 'ki'.  Which of these forms is
used is determined by what precedes 'k(i)' within the word.  If what
precedes is something that ends in a consonant (i.e., 'n-', 't-', 'an-',
or 'x'), then 'ki' must be used because a Nahuatl syllable cannot end in
two consonants.  If nothing precedes 'k(i)', then 'ki' must also be used
for the same reason.  Otherwise 'k' is used:

     correct         incorrect

     nikmaka         nkmaka
     tikmaka         tkmaka
     xikmaka         xkmaka
     ankimaka        ankmaka

     kimaka          kmaka


From Ian.Robertson at asu.edu  Tue Nov  5 19:32:40 2002
From: Ian.Robertson at asu.edu (Ian.Robertson at asu.edu)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 12:32:40 -0700
Subject: Andrews
Message-ID: <TUE.5.NOV.2002.123240.0700.>

I just noted with great interest that the "Introduction to Classical
Nahuatl" is listed by Amazon.com as available in March 2003, from U of
Oklahoma Press. Does anyone know anything about this reprinting of Andrews,
and is the workbook being reprinted as well?

Thanks, Ian

Ian G. Robertson
Department of Anthropology
Brigham Young University
954 SWKT
Provo, UT 84602


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Tue Nov 12 22:33:28 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:33:28 -0600
Subject: Fwd: Me: Looking for Indigenous Language Speakers
Message-ID: <TUE.12.NOV.2002.163328.0600.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

>Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:22:39 -0500
>Reply-To: Sharon Mujica <smujica at email.unc.edu>
>Sender: Pre-Columbian History <AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
>From: Sharon Mujica <smujica at email.unc.edu>
>Subject: Me: Looking for Indigenous Language Speakers
>To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU
>
>
>Interpreters need for indigenous languages:
>
>Our most pressing needs are:
>Mam, Quiche, Mixtec, Zapotec, and Konjobal; however we would also
>be interested in finding people who know Aguacateco, Cachiquel,
>Chuj, Chinanteco, Ixil, Jacalteco, Kekchi, Misquito,  Nahuatl,
>Quiche Achi, Quechua, Rahinal Achi, Tectiteco, Trique, and
>Tzotzil. Our interpreters work on an indpendent-contract, or
>freelance basis.  They must have permanent resident status or be
>US citizens.  If you can direct me to anyone who might be
>interested I would greatly appreciate it.
>
>Thanks for your help.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Peggy Kane
>Regional Program Coordinator
>Bowne Global Solutions
>1730 Rhode Island Avenue, Suite 308
>Washington, DC 20036
>peggy.kane at bowneglobal.com
>Tel: 202-331-1887 x142
>          888-241-9149 x142
>Fax: 202.496.0868


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Mon Nov 18 14:45:02 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:45:02 -0600
Subject: Utah actually Aztlan?
Message-ID: <MON.18.NOV.2002.084502.0600.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

One graduate student seems to thing that Utah is actually Aztlan

http://www.sltrib.com/11172002/utah/17461.htm



John F. Schwaller
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
315 Behmler Hall
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at mrs.umn.edu


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Tue Nov 26 15:13:38 2002
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:13:38 -0600
Subject: Fwd: INFO: Nahuatl classes
Message-ID: <TUE.26.NOV.2002.091338.0600.SCHWALLR@MRS.UMN.EDU>

>From: crosenm at tulane.edu
>Date: November 25, 2002
>
>Neteros,
>
>for those interested in taking Nahuatl classes, Pablo Flores Aguilar has been
>teaching Nahuatl and some Zapotec in Mexico City for a while. He is flexible,
>lots of fun and his prices are moderate.
>
>I have taken a class with him for about 7 months and I have learned plenty,
>Pablo can tell you what is right and wrong (in Nahuatl, of course) and also
>why, i.e. how the language functions.
>
>Pablo is currently finishing his MA in linguistics of indigenous languages at
>the Escuela Nacional de Antropolog?a in the D.F. He also speaks some English.
>You may contact him at
>
>
>cell phone: 044 55 25562451
>
>home phone: 56458764
>
>Country code for Mexico is 52.
>
>Best,
>Christoph Rosenmuller
>Doctoral Candidate
>Tulane University


From HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com  Thu Nov 28 20:20:26 2002
From: HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com (HJVsqzIMIS at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 15:20:26 EST
Subject: Aztlan in Utah?
Message-ID: <THU.28.NOV.2002.152026.EST.>

Greetings,

    A friend sent me this from the Native News. I hope it is of interest to
some.

                                            Henry Vasquez
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------

Subj:    [NativeNews] Bits of History Suggest Utah Is Location of Mythic
Aztlan
Date:   Sunday, November 17, 2002 8:48:41 AM
From:   senior-staff at nativenewsonline.org
To:     NatNews at yahoogroups.com

From:   senior-staff at nativenewsonline.org (Ishgooda, Senior Staff)
Reply-to:   NatNews-owner at yahoogroups.com
To: NatNews at yahoogroups.com

from "Jess Hansen" via ndn-aim list


Bits of History Suggest Utah Is Location of Mythic Aztlan

Sunday, November 17, 2002

By TIM SULLIVAN

The Salt Lake Tribune

http://www.sltrib.com


{{PHOTO : "University of Utah professor Armando Sol-rzano holds a

replica of an official map of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo from 1847 that

identifies Utah as the homeland of the Aztecs. The Aztecs left the mythic

Aztlan, which some scholars say is present-day Utah, to build a civilization

in the Valley of Mexico.}}



It was a map drawn in 1768 by a Spaniard in Paris that sent Roberto Rodriguez
running toward Aztlan.


As a Mexican American, Rodriguez long had pondered the historical location of
Aztlan, the mythic homeland of the Aztecs. Six years ago, he and his wife,
Patrisia Gonzales, found tantalizing directions in Don Joseph Antonio Alzate
y Ramirez's map of North America.


Where present-day Utah would be, and next to a large body of water called
"Laguna de Teguyo," are the words: "From these desert contours, the Mexican
Indians were said to have left to found their empire."


That cryptic message is one clue among many -- a petroglyph etched on a
sandstone wall in eastern Utah's Sego Canyon, an 1847 United States map
highlighting the confluences of the Colorado, Green and San Juan rivers in
southern Utah, a mound and more petroglyphs just outside Vernal -- that have
researchers considering a new angle on the history of the southwestern United
States.


"Some don't believe [Aztlan] was true, like Atlantis or the Garden of Eden,"
says Roger Blomquist, a doctoral student at the University of Nebraska at
Lincoln. "But I'm convinced it's in Utah. The evidence is very compelling.
It's building a mosaic that supports that thesis."


Since the 1960s and '70s civil rights movement, Chicano activists have used
the name Aztlan to describe the American Southwest as a northern homeland for
Americans of Mexican heritage. But for much longer, people all over the world
have been trying to pinpoint the historical location of the legendary place
the Aztecs left to build their civilization in the Valley of Mexico.


Rodriguez says Aztlan's literal and figurative meanings are both relevant to
his search.


"People would always tell us to 'go back to where we came from,' " Rodriguez
says. "Then we came up with this map. Our work is about whether we belong or
not."


Western scholars, Catholic clergy, Chicano activists and even the Aztecs
themselves have been seeking Aztlan for more than 500 years. They have put
much of their energy into gleaning facts from the story that tells of a
people emerging from the bowels of the earth through seven caves and settling
on an island called Aztlan, translated as "place of the egrets," or "place of
whiteness."


Acting upon a command from a spirit, these people left Aztlan and went south
until they came upon an eagle devouring a serpent in the present-day location
of Mexico City, where historical records suggest they founded the city
Tenochtitlan in the 14th century. But in 1433, Aztec leaders burned the
picture books that recounted the migration to the Valley of Mexico, leaving
only oral tradition and the name Aztlan.


The Aztec king Motecuhzoma I was probably the first to investigate seriously
the location of Aztlan. In the 1440s, he sent 60 magicians north for a
journey that itself became a legend -- according to chronicler Diego Duran,
these pilgrims encountered a supernatural being who transformed them into
birds, and they flew to Aztlan.


After the Spanish conquered the Aztecs in the early 16th century, they began
studying the Aztecs' origins. Francisco Clavijero, a Jesuit priest, in 1789
deduced that Aztlan lay north of the Colorado River. Other Mexican, European
and American historians put Aztlan in the Mexican state of Michoacan,
Florida, California, even Wisconsin. Many others deny it ever existed.


But perhaps the most widely accepted historical location of Aztlan is that
proposed by historian Alfredo Chavero in 1887. Retracing Nu-o de Guzman's
1530 expedition north from the Valley of Mexico, Chavero deduced that Aztlan
was an island off the coast of the Mexican state of Nayarit called
Mexcaltitlan.


Modern-day scholars who favor Utah as an Aztec homeland use some of these
studies and chronicles to advance their theories, which range geographically
from Salt Lake Valley to the Uinta Mountains to the Colorado Plateau. But
each of these researchers also seems to have his or her own trump card.


Rodriguez's curiosity originally was spurred by a copy of an 1847 map of the
boundaries drawn by the Treaty of Guadalupe Hildalgo, but quickly expanded to
"a hundred others," including the chart Alzate y Ramirez created for the
Royal Academy of Sciences in Paris. The maps touched off "Aztlanahuac," a
project by Rodriguez and Gonzales, newspaper columnists whose work appears in
The Tribune, that has spawned one book with two more on the way.


Aztlanahuac led them to gather oral histories on migration from Native
Americans throughout the Southwest. Believing that the "Laguna de Teguyo" had
to be the Great Salt Lake, the San Antonio couple also traveled to Antelope
Island four years ago. There, Rodriguez asked a state park ranger how many
caves the island had. The ranger's reply was, of course, seven.


Blomquist, a doctoral candidate in American Frontier History whose
dissertation explores Aztec origins in Utah, focuses on the Uinta Mountains.
He believes that Aztecs, who would have heard ancestral stories, advised
17th-century Spanish prospectors to look for gold in northeastern Utah.


Blomquist also cites a "natural temple site" in the Uintas near Vernal. He
says there is a 200-foot-high mound with footsteps carved into it and an
altar-sized boulder at its base that mirrors temples he has seen in Mexico,
such as Monte Alban outside of Oaxaca.


On a rock at the site are petroglyphs of a warrior and his family that
Blomquist says don't resemble rock art of the Fremont people known to have
inhabited Utah. And the warrior is carrying a long sword-like object that
broadens to a blunt end, like a cleaver, which Blomquist likens to a
Mesoamerican weapon called a macana.


Then there is Cecilio Orozco, a retired California State University at Fresno
education professor who has observed that petroglyphs in Sego Canyon, about
30 miles east of Green River, correspond to the Aztec calendar's mathematical
formula of five orbits of Venus for every eight Earth years. On one of the
canyon's sandstone walls are two petroglyphs of knotted string, one with five
strings hanging down, the other eight.


In conjunction with his mentor, Alfonso Rivas-Salmon, Orozco theorizes that
southern Utah is not Aztlan but the earlier homeland of "Nahuatl," the land
of "four waters," where the Colorado, Green and San Juan rivers meet to pour
through the Grand Canyon (Nahuatl is also the name of the Aztecs' language.).
The 1847 treaty map also points to southern Utah as the "Ancient Homeland of
the Aztecs."


Along those lines, Belgian scholar Antoon Leon Vollemaere believes he has
pinpointed the location of Aztlan on either Wilson or Grey Mesa, where the
Colorado and San Juan meet under Lake Powell.


Researchers also cite the close connection between the languages of the
Aztecs and the Ute Indians in the "Uto-Aztecan" linguistic group, as well as
the coincidence that the Anasazi culture began to decline at about the same
time the Aztecs' ancestors were supposed to have left Aztlan.


While the pile of evidence that the Aztecs came from somewhere in Utah may
seem high, more skeptical scholars like Northern Arizona University
archaeologist Kelley Hays-Gilpin put things into perspective.


Hays-Gilpin acknowledges the linguistic connection between the Aztecs and
Utes as well as economic interaction between Mesoamerican and North American
peoples. But she offers a twist on the overall migration scheme -- the
Aztecs' ancestors may have moved north before moving south.


Hays-Gilpin believes that people speaking a proto-Uto-Aztecan language
domesticated maize in central Mexico more than 5,000 years ago, and
consequently spread north to an area of the American West that could have
included Utah. Out of that multitude of cultures, some groups could have
migrated south to northern Mexico, and some of those could have, as she says,
"moved to the Valley of Mexico and subjugated some of the confused and
bedraggled remnants of the latest 'regime change.'"


This concept resonates with Utah Division of Indian Affairs Director Forrest
Cuch, a member of the Northern Ute Tribe, who remembers his grandmother
telling him his people came from the south. Could the Utes and the Aztecs'
ancestors also have lived in close contact in modern-day Utah?


"I'm open to it," Cuch says, "because so little is known about the past."


As such, it would be almost impossible to prove the historical location of
Aztlan, but Roberto Rodriguez says clearing the mist surrounding the myth may
not be so important anyway.


While treading the path of his Aztlanahuac project, Rodriguez began to
uncover a history of mass migration akin to the one Hays-Gilpin suggests. For
him and Gonzales, understanding the larger scheme of historical movement
throughout North America became more vital than deconstructing one elusive
origin story.


"[Finding a location] has almost become irrelevant," he says. "Now, we have a
bigger understanding, that the whole continent is connected. You have all
these stories of people going back and forth."


Rodriguez says all that migration is most significant for Mexican Americans,
and for the thousands of people now moving from Mexico to the United States,
because it affords them and subsequent generations an answer when someone
says, "go back where you came from."


"I just hope kids at school some day will at least be shown these maps," he
says.


University of Utah ethnic studies professor Armando Sol-rzano has tailored
the Aztlan concept to fit Utah, which is experiencing its own influx of
Mexican immigrants.


Sol-rzano, a native Guadalajaran, has his own reasoning as to why Utah was a
point of departure for the Aztecs -- that the geographical characteristics of
Salt Lake Valley resemble those of Mexico City -- but his interpretation of
Aztlan is, like Rodriguez's, a broader one.


Sol-rzano tells of arriving in Utah 12 years ago and seeing the Wasatch
Mountains and the Great Salt Lake. "I said, 'My God, this is Aztlan.' I felt
a spiritual unity with the land, something I had never felt before outside
Mexico."


He compares the concept of Aztlan as a sacred land of harmony with that of
Zion in the Mormon tradition. The similarities, he says, show that both
cultures are searching for a common goal. Sol-rzano calls his Utah adaptation
of Aztlan "Utaztlan."


Had Sol-rzano's own migration path taken him to a different part of the
United States, his concept of Aztlan likely would be different. Still, he
shares his sense of the myth's importance with people of Mexican heritage all
over the country.


"What is happening now is we are returning," Sol-rzano says. "This is an
opportunity to rewrite history and make justice."



? Copyright 2002, The Salt Lake Tribune


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

[If you got here from frontpage Native News Online, click here to return:
http://216.97.43.231/ ]

COMMENTS?

http://nativenewsonline.org/Guestbook/guestbook.cgi

Escribe archives

http://escribe.com/culture/native_news/

http://207.126.116.12/culture/native_news/

Reprinted under the Fair Use http://nativenewsonline.org/fairuse.htm

<<<<<>>>>>

Tsonkwadiyonrat (We are ONE Spirit)

http://nativenewsonline.org/

Native News Online

a Service of Barefoot Connection