From patrizia.zuckerhut at magnet.at Tue Sep 3 07:05:32 2002 From: patrizia.zuckerhut at magnet.at (Patrizia Zuckerhut) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:05:32 +0200 Subject: literature Message-ID: I am looking for literature on gender relations in Nahua communities - up to now I was not very lucky - have you got some hints? patricia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davius_sanctex at terra.es Tue Sep 3 19:22:16 2002 From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 21:22:16 +0200 Subject: christian text in nahuatl Message-ID: I am looking for christian text in nahuatl languages, can someone help me? david -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Tue Sep 3 20:14:48 2002 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:14:48 -0700 Subject: christian text in nahuatl In-Reply-To: <00c901c2537f$3946f9e0$7f06523e@brothers> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, David Sanchez wrote: |I am looking for christian text in nahuatl languages, can someone help me? Speaking of which, a copy of the New Testament in Nahuatl would really help me get into the language. I have a grammar book, and a dictionary, and it *is* a fascinating language, do you know of a source for the New Testament in Nahuatl? (I would prefer its observing the spelling convention where the letters 'wa' are used instead of 'hua,' for that matter.) From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Tue Sep 3 21:48:55 2002 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:48:55 -0700 Subject: christian text in nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, r. joe campbell wrote: | Here is a probably incomplete (and possibly incorrect) summary I |derived from a quick examination of their texts. | | phonetic orthography | | [k] c, qu | [s] s | [h] j | "sh" x | [w] hu | [ts] tz | |One irregularity among the three is that in the Norte de Puebla |(dialect of Naupan), [w] after 'l' is spelled without the 'h' |(i.e., [okinilwilok] = "oquiniluiloc"). Further, what at first |glance might appear to be an irregularity in orthography is that |syllable-final 'h' appears where the other dialects have 'j'. Okay. |However, the 'j' represents phonetic [h] (roughly similar to the |Spanish "jota"), but the 'h' of the Norte de Puebla represents a |glottal stop ("saltillo"), similar to the commented dialects of the |Sixteenth Century. Is the [h] in Spanish 'jota' similar to the final sound in German 'ach?' Did Nahuatl ever have the softer sound found in German 'ich?' From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Sep 3 21:43:44 2002 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 16:43:44 -0500 Subject: christian text in nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't have the address and telephone number of the Summer Institute of Linguistics at hand, but I assume that someone out there does. They have published at least: In Yancuic Mononotzalistli ica Totecohtzin Jesucristo (El Nuevo Testamento de nuestro Sen~or Jesucristo en nahuatl del norte de Puebla) Ilajtulisli Yancuic toTata Jesucristo (El Nuevo Testamento de nuestro Sen~or Jesucristo en el nahuatl de Michoaca'n) Ya Ni Nopa Yancuic Tlajtoli Tlen Toteco Toca Mocajtoc (El Nuevo Testamento de Nuestro Sen~or Jesucristo en nahuatl de la Huasteca Oriental y en espan~ol) None of them uses 'wa' for phonetic [wa]; they instead all use what corresponds to Modern Spanish (and Carochi's) orthography: 'hua'. Here is a probably incomplete (and possibly incorrect) summary I derived from a quick examination of their texts. phonetic orthography [k] c, qu [s] s [h] j "sh" x [w] hu [ts] tz One irregularity among the three is that in the Norte de Puebla (dialect of Naupan), [w] after 'l' is spelled without the 'h' (i.e., [okinilwilok] = "oquiniluiloc"). Further, what at first glance might appear to be an irregularity in orthography is that syllable-final 'h' appears where the other dialects have 'j'. However, the 'j' represents phonetic [h] (roughly similar to the Spanish "jota"), but the 'h' of the Norte de Puebla represents a glottal stop ("saltillo"), similar to the commented dialects of the Sixteenth Century. If I had my druthers, modern dialects would be transcribed more closely to the "Carochi" model; if some of my friends had their druthers, 'k' and 'w' would abound. But I suppose that we are all stuck with the task of making our eyes and our minds work flexibly, matching varying orthographies to our single mental word images. Joe On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, David Sanchez wrote: > |I am looking for christian text in nahuatl languages, can someone help me? > > Speaking of which, a copy of the New Testament in Nahuatl would really > help me get into the language. I have a grammar book, and a dictionary, > and it *is* a fascinating language, do you know of a source for the > New Testament in Nahuatl? (I would prefer its observing the spelling > convention where the letters 'wa' are used instead of 'hua,' for that > matter.) > > > From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Sep 4 03:02:02 2002 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 22:02:02 -0500 Subject: christian text in nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow! This is a wide question. The Spanish 'jota' varies by dialect (no big surprise). A *very* rough summary: 1. In Northern Spain, the predominant pronunciation is a uvular trill -- nothing like an English [h]. ""Very raspy"" 2. In non-Gulf Coast Mexico (and a good deal of Spanish America), the "normal" 'jota' is still not like an English [h], but impressionistally is a step closer. It is produced by bringing the back of the tongue up and back, closer to the velum and parallel to it, so that audible friction is made by the constricted airstream. The position of the back of tongue is affected by adjacent vowels -- similar to, but not to the extreme degree, of the context sensitivity of the German 'ch'. So the constriction is considerably higher on the velum for the 'jota' of "dije" than that of "ajo". This is the 'jota' of most of the places in Mexico where Nahuatl is spoken, but it is *not* the pronunciation of the modern reflex of the "classical" glottal stop, which has an [h] with no velar constriction -- much like the English [h]. 3. Some Spanish dialects have a 'jota' unlike 1 and 2 in that it involves no narrowing of the passageway in the area of the uvula or the velum. *Roughly*, it is similar to the Nahuatl 'h' referred to above; Coastal Mexico and Caribbean Spanish are common examples of this kind of 'jota'. So back to your questions: > Is the [h] in Spanish 'jota' similar to the final sound in German > 'ach?' Yes, the Spanish 'jota' frequently sounds like the German 'ch', as in 'ich' or 'ach' (depending on surrounding vowels), but the German 'ch' does not sound like [h]. > Did Nahuatl ever have the softer sound found in German 'ich?' No, the Nahuatl [h] is like English [h], not like the fricative sound in German 'ich'. Best regards, Joe On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > |However, the 'j' represents phonetic [h] (roughly similar to the > |Spanish "jota"), but the 'h' of the Norte de Puebla represents a > |glottal stop ("saltillo"), similar to the commented dialects of the > |Sixteenth Century. > > Is the [h] in Spanish 'jota' similar to the final sound in German > 'ach?' > Did Nahuatl ever have the softer sound found in German 'ich?' > From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Wed Sep 4 05:59:06 2002 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 22:59:06 -0700 Subject: christian text in nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, r. joe campbell wrote: | 1. In Northern Spain, the predominant pronunciation is a uvular trill -- |nothing like an English [h]. ""Very raspy"" Wait a second, some North American English speakers pronounce their Rs by drawing the backmost part of their tongue even farther backwards, even to the point of contacting the uvula, hence its being called a retroflex R. Is the Nahuatl h sound similar to that? (And I have heard some Frisians utter their 'ch' sound like that, too.) So, is the Nahuatl 'h' sound produced in the same way, by producing something that is almost a closure between the back of the tongue and the uvula? Say, do you have a suggestion of a link on the web that has sound spectrographs we can view and print out, so we can compare the Nahuatl 'h' sound to the American retroflex 'r' sound and some other national sounds, like German 'chlor' as opposed to Dutch and Frisian 'chlor' sounds? I hope I am not introducing noise into the list, this just makes me wonder a little bit. I have had the benefit of hearing a Nahuatl 'tl' sound from an actual speaker a couple years ago, without which benefit I would be wondering about it to this day. From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Wed Sep 4 07:19:44 2002 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:19:44 +0100 Subject: Nahuatl sounds (was: Re: christian text in nahuatl) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 3 Sep 2002, at 22:59, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > ... I hope I am not introducing noise > into the list, this just makes me wonder a little bit. I have > had the benefit of hearing a Nahuatl 'tl' sound from an actual > speaker a couple years ago, without which benefit I would be > wondering about it to this day. There may be no point in me mentioning this, but another way that some people are exposed to the [tl] sound nowadays is via the Star Trek cult in the Klingon space-alien language http:///www.kli.org which was invented by Marc Okrand. It seems to contain some other Nahuatl features such as having to learn subject-and-object pronoun combinations separately. I have heard the Nahuatl [tl] sound on television. From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Sep 4 15:20:43 2002 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:20:43 -0500 Subject: christian text in nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At the risk of over simplifying, Nahuatl [h] is like English [h] (and like Caribbean Spanish [h]). That's one advantage of using [..] -- we're being literal. [h] is characterized mainly by an unobstructed, non-constricted oral passage. Say "hot" and you've produced it. [more below] On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > Wait a second, some North American English speakers pronounce their Rs by > drawing the backmost part of their tongue even farther backwards, even to > the point of contacting the uvula, hence its being called a retroflex R. > Is the Nahuatl h sound similar to that? (And I have heard some Frisians > utter their 'ch' sound like that, too.) So, is the Nahuatl 'h' sound > produced in the same way, by producing something that is almost a closure > between the back of the tongue and the uvula? I strongly doubt that comparing sound spectrograms of these sounds would enlighten most people. The only people that *would* benefit from the viewing would be people who already had a lot of experience in articulatory phonetics and its correlations with acoustic phonetics (i.e., what you glean from spectrograms). --And the differences are so gross that you don't need the help of the acoustic hints. Best regards, Joe > > Say, do you have a suggestion of a link on the web that has sound > spectrographs we can view and print out, so we can compare the > Nahuatl 'h' sound to the American retroflex 'r' sound and some > other national sounds, like German 'chlor' as opposed to Dutch > and Frisian 'chlor' sounds? I hope I am not introducing noise > into the list, this just makes me wonder a little bit. I have > had the benefit of hearing a Nahuatl 'tl' sound from an actual > speaker a couple years ago, without which benefit I would be > wondering about it to this day. > > > From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Sep 5 16:45:19 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 11:45:19 CDT Subject: Christian texts Message-ID: Dear friends, I am out of the office, but have caught the most recent series of missives on Christian texts. Before we get too far afield, remember that several score books were printed in Nahuatl prior to 1820 and a huge percentage of those were �Christian�� texts. The first book published in the New World was a catechism in Nahuatl. Several members of the list, in fact, have done extensive work on this literature. Especially see Barry Sell�s dissertation from UCLA on works printed in Nahuatl in the 16th century. J. F. Schwaller List owner John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E. 4th Street Morrris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Sep 17 18:43:37 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:43:37 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Aztec manuscripts on display Message-ID: >X-Sender: rbaber at nsit-imap.uchicago.edu (Unverified) >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 >Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:17:47 -0500 >To: midwest-latam at listhost.uchicago.edu >From: Erika Kneen >AZTEC MANUSCRIPTS DISPLAYED AT THE NEWBERRY > >CHICAGO--This fall, a series of displays connects the Newberry Library’s >diverse collections in the humanities to people’s lives. Timely and >informal, these displays offer a taste of the collections and relate to >issues of the daylocal and world events, national holidays and >commemorative anniversariesas well as to Newberry programs. > > >From October 5, through October 17, 2002, in honor of Hispanic Heritage > Month, the Newberry will display rare Aztec manuscripts from its collections. > >Collection materials on display may include, but are not limited to, the >following items: > >· Historia de las cosas de Nueva Espana, text and illustration plate >facsimiles of Father Bernardino de Sahagún’s General History of the things >of New Spain, written from 1540-1563 and reproduced for the School of >American Research, University of Utah: 1950-1982. English and Aztec. >· Exercisios quotidianos en lengua mexicana, contemporary copy of Father >Bernardino de Sahagún’s 1574 correction and reworking of an anonymous >compilation of Biblical readings and meditations in Nahuatl, the Aztec >language. >· Bezzero general menologico y chronologico de todos los religiosos que de >las tres parcialidades conviene, Comprehensive catalogue, written by >Franciscan priest by Francisco Antonio de la Rosa Figueroa, which includes >historical and biographical information on members of the Franciscan order >in New Spain from 1524 to 1764. Figueroa's catalogue, which he wrote from >1755-1764, opens with preliminary notes concerning his methods and >sources; and brief comments on the mother province, Santo Evangelio in >Mexico City, and subordinate provinces of Michoacán, Jalisco, Yucatán, >Guatemala, Zacatecas, Lima, the Philippines, and Florida. In Spanish. >· Siguense unos sermones de dominicas y de santos en lengua mexicana, >compilations of sermons in Nahuatl by Father Bernardino de Sahagún, begun >in 1540 and revised and corrected in 1563. Manuscript is on pounded bark >paper. (Please note: This item may not be displayed due to conservation >concerns.) > >For more information, please call the Center for Public Programs at (312) >255-3700. > > >----------------------------------------------------------- >Erika Kneen >Public Relations Manager >The Newberry Library >60 W. Walton St., Chicago 60610 >Phone: (312) 255-3553 >Fax: (312) 255-3543 > John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From notoca at hotmail.com Wed Sep 18 00:38:28 2002 From: notoca at hotmail.com (Chichiltic Coyotl) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:38:28 +0800 Subject: Eclipse Message-ID: Niltze Heather: Ica na:huatl eclipse, mihtoa Cualo:ca - i.e. the state of having been eaten No:, mihtoah Eclipse of the Sun ------------------ Iqualo:ca in to:natiuh Tonatiuh iqualo:ca Cualoto:natiuh Eclipse of the Moon ------------------- Iqualo:ca in me:tztli Me:tztli iqualo:ca Cualome:tztli >From: Heather Hess >Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:53:26 -0400 > >p.s. How do you say Eclipse in Nahuatl! > >Thanks again! > >Benedictiones! > >Heather >http://www.hotmail.com > > Copyright � AZTLAN 2002. > All rights reserved. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From Matthew.McDavitt at gecapital.com Mon Sep 23 17:19:02 2002 From: Matthew.McDavitt at gecapital.com (McDavitt, Matthew T (CAP, CARD)) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 13:19:02 -0400 Subject: origin of 'Cipactli' Message-ID: I am an anthropological researcher documenting the cultural importance of sharks and rays in world cultures. I have a question regarding the origin and meaning of the word 'cipactli'. While this word is often translated as 'caiman', 'alligator', or 'crocodile', to my knowledge, this term never appears as a general word for crocodilians, but appears exclusively as a proper name for the aquatic earth-monster. Seler suggested that perhaps the term derives from 'tzihuactli', a spiny wild plant mentioned in several texts, and thus, the name Cipactli would connote this creature's ubiquitous spines. However, similar words appear in neighboring languages, some which conceivably predating the appearance of Nahuatl in the Valley of Mexico (e.g. the aquatic monster 'Sipakna' from the Quiche Popol Vuh). I have never encountered another Nahuatl term beginning with the morpheme 'sip'; could this indicate that Cipactli is perhaps a loan word from another language? Certainly the iconography of Cipactli is found among other societies which predate the Aztecs (such as the Mixtecs). Another consideration is that 'cipac' appears to function as a root word, used to name various finned aquatic animals, much as the word 'coyotl' is used to name conceptually linked animals such as the 'azca-coyotl' ['ant-coyote', = anteater], 'a-coyotl' ['water-coyote'=sea-lion], etc... Thus we find 'atli-cipactli' [waterfall?-cipactli] for whale (Teogonia e historia de los Mexicanos) and 'a-cipaquitli' [water?-cipac-i?] for the sawfish (Sahagun vol. 2 & 11). This generic finned animal cannot refer to the quadroped crocodile; could this term designate the shark, the remains of which are found in abundance entombed beneath the Templo Mayor, an animal linked iconographically to the earth-monster Cipactli? As I am not an expert in Nahuatl, I would greatly welcome any comments or insights regarding the origin and interpretation of this enigmatic word . For a cursory account of the iconography and significance of Cipactli, please see: McDavitt, M.T. 2002. "Cipactli's sword, Tlaltecuhtli's teeth: deciphering the sawfish & shark remains in the Aztec Great Temple". SHARK NEWS 14 (March): 6-7. Kind regards, Matthew McDavitt email: nokogiri at aol.com From notoca at hotmail.com Wed Sep 25 00:35:05 2002 From: notoca at hotmail.com (Chichiltic Coyotl) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:35:05 +0800 Subject: Que:nin mihtoa:h? Message-ID: Niltze Que:nin mihtoa:h ica na:huatl the difference i:hua:n the difference between? Tlazohca:mati CC _________________________________________________________________ Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From jsullivan3 at mac.com Wed Sep 25 02:55:02 2002 From: jsullivan3 at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:55:02 -0500 Subject: Que:nin mihtoa:h? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Huampox, Amo nicmati quenicatza moilhuia "difference", pero macehualme de la Huasteca quitoa "amo zan ce tlachiya" quema quitoznequi "its not the same". John Sullivan, Ph.D. Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco García Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 México Tel: +52 (492) 768-6048 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On 9/24/02 7:35 PM, "Chichiltic Coyotl" wrote: > Niltze > > Que:nin mihtoa:h ica na:huatl the difference i:hua:n the difference between? > > Tlazohca:mati > > CC > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Sep 30 15:33:37 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 10:33:37 -0500 Subject: Cocoxochitl Message-ID: Someone has recently contacted to inquire if cocoxochitl refers to the flower we call a dahlia. Clearly it means yellow-flower, but beyond that I am at a loss. Any thoughts out there? John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From clayton at indiana.edu Mon Sep 30 16:55:13 2002 From: clayton at indiana.edu (mary l. clayton) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 11:55:13 -0500 Subject: Cocoxochitl In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020930103237.02b43e50@cda.mrs.umn.edu> Message-ID: Fritz, According to Louise Schoenhals' _A_ _Spanish_-_English_ _Glossary_ _of_ _Mexican_ _Flora_ and _Fauna_ (SIL 1988): "cocoxo'chitl 1. (Dahlia spp., e.g., D. coccinea) "dahlia" Also called charahuesca, dalia. 2. (Dahlia coccinea) "wild dahlia" Very large flowering plants. Flowers are simple and range from reddish-orange to yellow. The plants grow wild in the forests and glades of many mountain areas. They may be up to 4 meters tall. Also called dalia." Joe has several examples of 'acocoxochitl' from the Florentine Codex, which Dibble and Anderson translate 'Dahlia' and identify as D. coccinea. (book 11 p.199 in their edition). They refer to Hernandez vol 1 p.24. They also have (book 11 p.212) "xallacocotli - It is a stalk, hollow, spongy within. The name of its bloom, its blossom is acocoxochitl. It is chili-red, brown, yellow; it is fuzzy, developed, round -- rounded. Its petals are straight, wide, tender; they disintegrate." footnote "xallacocotli - arracacia atropurpurea There is also a 'tepeacocoxochitl' ('wild acocochitl'): "Iztaquiltic. also its name is tepeacocoxochitl. It is stalky, somewhat long, with branches [and leaves] like the ahuehuetl. Its leaves are green, slick." There follows a paragraph on its medicinal properties and the maladies that it treats, concluding "It grows in the forest, in the mountains." (book 11 p.160) How this relates to the hybridized flowers known as dahlias, I don't know. I'd say the next step would be for the person to check on the species mentioned. Of course, it's important to remember that many of the plants and flowers that we see in catalogs don't occur in nature, and also that they didn't have our system of nomenclature. Mary On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, John F. Schwaller wrote: > > Someone has recently contacted to inquire if cocoxochitl refers to the > flower we call a dahlia. Clearly it means yellow-flower, but beyond that I > am at a loss. > > Any thoughts out there? > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at mrs.umn.edu > > > From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Mon Sep 30 16:57:56 2002 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 17:57:56 +0100 Subject: Cocoxochitl In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020930103237.02b43e50@cda.mrs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On 30 Sep 2002, at 10:33, John F. Schwaller wrote: > Someone has recently contacted to inquire if cocoxochitl refers > to the flower we call a dahlia. Clearly it means yellow-flower, but > beyond that I am at a loss. Any thoughts out there? I once saw a TV gardening-type program about the history of dahlias, and it showed an early picture of a dahlia, with a title COCOXOCHITL. It also said that dalhias came from Mexico. Citlalyani. From alanrking at yahoo.com Mon Sep 30 18:18:44 2002 From: alanrking at yahoo.com (Alan King) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 11:18:44 -0700 Subject: Pipil/Nahuat(e) questions Message-ID: I am new to the list, and I don't know whether I am expected to introduce myself, but would like to. I have been working in Basque linguistics for over twenty years, both in theoretical (chiefly grammatical) and various practical (applied) areas. I also have wider interests, largely typological, in many languages ranging from Europe to Oceania, and I tend to work mainly with minority languages. I have a good command of Spanish. However, I lack experience with Native American languages, and that fact sets the tone of this my first posting to the list. I am about to spend approximately a year in El Salvador for personal reasons. Apart from a three-week preliminary visit earlier this year, this is my first experience residing in Latin America. I would very much like this visit to be an occasion for expanding my horizons in terms of both learning from and contributing to my new environment. I am at present trying to prepare and document myself, prior to leaving in a few weeks. >From my initial reading and inquiries I have found out that the main indigenous language of El Salvador is Pipil or Nahuat(e), which is either a dialect of Nahuatl or very closely related indeed (if it is to be considered a separate language). I have also learnt that it is on the very edge of extinction if not indeed already extinct (as my information is not up-to-date). Finally, I have got hold of a copy of what I assume to be the standard work on Pipil/Nahuat to date, Lyle Campbell's 1985 book "The Pipil Language of El Salvador", which I am now studying. That is really all I know. The acquaintances I made in San Salvador on my last visit seemed to have little knowledge of or interest in the actual present-day situation of the language or its speakers (or non-speakers), although they otherwise seemed like very nice people. I should add that I am not oblivious of or unsensitive to the very difficult overall situation of the country at the present time: lack of resources, urgent priorities, etc. etc. Now I will come to my question, and it is a very general one to begin with; I may follow up with more specific, detailed and academic queries afaterwards, but first I need to "feel out the situation" as it were. I am assuming that there must be somebody in Nahuatl Studies with some interest or experience in Pipil, even if it does probably doesn't hole a central place in the discipline. At this point I am looking for general advice on where to go, what can be done, and also basic information on the current state of affairs. Basically anything, but it is not easy to find out much (even the Internet has fallen short here). The following is NOT a questionnaire but merely suggestive of some of the things I'd like to know to start off with. Can anyone help? 1. How many speakers of Pipil are left, if any? Where are they, and what is their situation? 2. Are there people in El Salvador who are interested in studying, teaching or cultivating the language, or who would view such activities favourably? Who are they and where can they be found? 3. What is the popular attitude to the issue at present (beyond the ignorance or indifference I have so far encountered)? What is the official attitude? What views are found within academic circles? 4. What resources exist in the country, or indeed in other countries, for pursuing an interest in the Pipil language? What interest exists, for that matter, in circles where Nahuatl is studied? 5. Are there any ongoing programs concerned with the language, or individuals working in the field, who could be contacted, with a view to either learning about or contributing in some way to the endeavour? 6. What other advice or suggestions can anybody give me? I'm sorry about the length of this post. Next time I shall try to be more brief! Pampa Diyux! Alan R. King Basque Country ===== ---------------------------------------------- Please reply to ONE (not both) of the following addresses (ONLY) / Erantzun bakarrik helbide hauetako BATERA mesedez (ez bietara): alanking at eirelink.com / alanrking at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Sep 30 19:03:41 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 14:03:41 -0500 Subject: Cocoxochitl In-Reply-To: <48257.10.3.36.17.1033411908.squirrel@webmail.coatli.com> Message-ID: At 11:51 AM 9/30/02 -0700, you wrote: >"Cocol-" often refers to sickness or pain, and I think it would be >unlikely that the "cocolxochitl" would not also be related to this in some >way. The way I had viewed it was coco(z) + xochitl for yellow flower. There is a common flower identified as: cocoxochipahtli which is a yellow medicine flower Which obviously would have curative powers. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From robert at coatli.com Mon Sep 30 19:02:35 2002 From: robert at coatli.com (Robert Barkaloff) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 12:02:35 -0700 Subject: Cocoxochitl Message-ID: "Cocol-" often refers to sickness or pain, and I think it would be unlikely that the "cocolxochitl" would not also be related to this in some way. Perhaps it is an appropriate flower for the sick as the "cempoalxochitl," or twentieth (or last, because it is the last, or summary, in a series of 20 day signs) is an appropriate flower for the dead. Robert Barkaloff robert at coatli.com > > Someone has recently contacted to inquire if cocoxochitl refers to the > flower we call a dahlia. Clearly it means yellow-flower, but beyond > that I am at a loss. > > Any thoughts out there? > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From patrizia.zuckerhut at magnet.at Tue Sep 3 07:05:32 2002 From: patrizia.zuckerhut at magnet.at (Patrizia Zuckerhut) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:05:32 +0200 Subject: literature Message-ID: I am looking for literature on gender relations in Nahua communities - up to now I was not very lucky - have you got some hints? patricia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davius_sanctex at terra.es Tue Sep 3 19:22:16 2002 From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 21:22:16 +0200 Subject: christian text in nahuatl Message-ID: I am looking for christian text in nahuatl languages, can someone help me? david -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Tue Sep 3 20:14:48 2002 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:14:48 -0700 Subject: christian text in nahuatl In-Reply-To: <00c901c2537f$3946f9e0$7f06523e@brothers> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, David Sanchez wrote: |I am looking for christian text in nahuatl languages, can someone help me? Speaking of which, a copy of the New Testament in Nahuatl would really help me get into the language. I have a grammar book, and a dictionary, and it *is* a fascinating language, do you know of a source for the New Testament in Nahuatl? (I would prefer its observing the spelling convention where the letters 'wa' are used instead of 'hua,' for that matter.) From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Tue Sep 3 21:48:55 2002 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:48:55 -0700 Subject: christian text in nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, r. joe campbell wrote: | Here is a probably incomplete (and possibly incorrect) summary I |derived from a quick examination of their texts. | | phonetic orthography | | [k] c, qu | [s] s | [h] j | "sh" x | [w] hu | [ts] tz | |One irregularity among the three is that in the Norte de Puebla |(dialect of Naupan), [w] after 'l' is spelled without the 'h' |(i.e., [okinilwilok] = "oquiniluiloc"). Further, what at first |glance might appear to be an irregularity in orthography is that |syllable-final 'h' appears where the other dialects have 'j'. Okay. |However, the 'j' represents phonetic [h] (roughly similar to the |Spanish "jota"), but the 'h' of the Norte de Puebla represents a |glottal stop ("saltillo"), similar to the commented dialects of the |Sixteenth Century. Is the [h] in Spanish 'jota' similar to the final sound in German 'ach?' Did Nahuatl ever have the softer sound found in German 'ich?' From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Sep 3 21:43:44 2002 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 16:43:44 -0500 Subject: christian text in nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't have the address and telephone number of the Summer Institute of Linguistics at hand, but I assume that someone out there does. They have published at least: In Yancuic Mononotzalistli ica Totecohtzin Jesucristo (El Nuevo Testamento de nuestro Sen~or Jesucristo en nahuatl del norte de Puebla) Ilajtulisli Yancuic toTata Jesucristo (El Nuevo Testamento de nuestro Sen~or Jesucristo en el nahuatl de Michoaca'n) Ya Ni Nopa Yancuic Tlajtoli Tlen Toteco Toca Mocajtoc (El Nuevo Testamento de Nuestro Sen~or Jesucristo en nahuatl de la Huasteca Oriental y en espan~ol) None of them uses 'wa' for phonetic [wa]; they instead all use what corresponds to Modern Spanish (and Carochi's) orthography: 'hua'. Here is a probably incomplete (and possibly incorrect) summary I derived from a quick examination of their texts. phonetic orthography [k] c, qu [s] s [h] j "sh" x [w] hu [ts] tz One irregularity among the three is that in the Norte de Puebla (dialect of Naupan), [w] after 'l' is spelled without the 'h' (i.e., [okinilwilok] = "oquiniluiloc"). Further, what at first glance might appear to be an irregularity in orthography is that syllable-final 'h' appears where the other dialects have 'j'. However, the 'j' represents phonetic [h] (roughly similar to the Spanish "jota"), but the 'h' of the Norte de Puebla represents a glottal stop ("saltillo"), similar to the commented dialects of the Sixteenth Century. If I had my druthers, modern dialects would be transcribed more closely to the "Carochi" model; if some of my friends had their druthers, 'k' and 'w' would abound. But I suppose that we are all stuck with the task of making our eyes and our minds work flexibly, matching varying orthographies to our single mental word images. Joe On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, David Sanchez wrote: > |I am looking for christian text in nahuatl languages, can someone help me? > > Speaking of which, a copy of the New Testament in Nahuatl would really > help me get into the language. I have a grammar book, and a dictionary, > and it *is* a fascinating language, do you know of a source for the > New Testament in Nahuatl? (I would prefer its observing the spelling > convention where the letters 'wa' are used instead of 'hua,' for that > matter.) > > > From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Sep 4 03:02:02 2002 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 22:02:02 -0500 Subject: christian text in nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow! This is a wide question. The Spanish 'jota' varies by dialect (no big surprise). A *very* rough summary: 1. In Northern Spain, the predominant pronunciation is a uvular trill -- nothing like an English [h]. ""Very raspy"" 2. In non-Gulf Coast Mexico (and a good deal of Spanish America), the "normal" 'jota' is still not like an English [h], but impressionistally is a step closer. It is produced by bringing the back of the tongue up and back, closer to the velum and parallel to it, so that audible friction is made by the constricted airstream. The position of the back of tongue is affected by adjacent vowels -- similar to, but not to the extreme degree, of the context sensitivity of the German 'ch'. So the constriction is considerably higher on the velum for the 'jota' of "dije" than that of "ajo". This is the 'jota' of most of the places in Mexico where Nahuatl is spoken, but it is *not* the pronunciation of the modern reflex of the "classical" glottal stop, which has an [h] with no velar constriction -- much like the English [h]. 3. Some Spanish dialects have a 'jota' unlike 1 and 2 in that it involves no narrowing of the passageway in the area of the uvula or the velum. *Roughly*, it is similar to the Nahuatl 'h' referred to above; Coastal Mexico and Caribbean Spanish are common examples of this kind of 'jota'. So back to your questions: > Is the [h] in Spanish 'jota' similar to the final sound in German > 'ach?' Yes, the Spanish 'jota' frequently sounds like the German 'ch', as in 'ich' or 'ach' (depending on surrounding vowels), but the German 'ch' does not sound like [h]. > Did Nahuatl ever have the softer sound found in German 'ich?' No, the Nahuatl [h] is like English [h], not like the fricative sound in German 'ich'. Best regards, Joe On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > |However, the 'j' represents phonetic [h] (roughly similar to the > |Spanish "jota"), but the 'h' of the Norte de Puebla represents a > |glottal stop ("saltillo"), similar to the commented dialects of the > |Sixteenth Century. > > Is the [h] in Spanish 'jota' similar to the final sound in German > 'ach?' > Did Nahuatl ever have the softer sound found in German 'ich?' > From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Wed Sep 4 05:59:06 2002 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 22:59:06 -0700 Subject: christian text in nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, r. joe campbell wrote: | 1. In Northern Spain, the predominant pronunciation is a uvular trill -- |nothing like an English [h]. ""Very raspy"" Wait a second, some North American English speakers pronounce their Rs by drawing the backmost part of their tongue even farther backwards, even to the point of contacting the uvula, hence its being called a retroflex R. Is the Nahuatl h sound similar to that? (And I have heard some Frisians utter their 'ch' sound like that, too.) So, is the Nahuatl 'h' sound produced in the same way, by producing something that is almost a closure between the back of the tongue and the uvula? Say, do you have a suggestion of a link on the web that has sound spectrographs we can view and print out, so we can compare the Nahuatl 'h' sound to the American retroflex 'r' sound and some other national sounds, like German 'chlor' as opposed to Dutch and Frisian 'chlor' sounds? I hope I am not introducing noise into the list, this just makes me wonder a little bit. I have had the benefit of hearing a Nahuatl 'tl' sound from an actual speaker a couple years ago, without which benefit I would be wondering about it to this day. From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Wed Sep 4 07:19:44 2002 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:19:44 +0100 Subject: Nahuatl sounds (was: Re: christian text in nahuatl) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 3 Sep 2002, at 22:59, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > ... I hope I am not introducing noise > into the list, this just makes me wonder a little bit. I have > had the benefit of hearing a Nahuatl 'tl' sound from an actual > speaker a couple years ago, without which benefit I would be > wondering about it to this day. There may be no point in me mentioning this, but another way that some people are exposed to the [tl] sound nowadays is via the Star Trek cult in the Klingon space-alien language http:///www.kli.org which was invented by Marc Okrand. It seems to contain some other Nahuatl features such as having to learn subject-and-object pronoun combinations separately. I have heard the Nahuatl [tl] sound on television. From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Sep 4 15:20:43 2002 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:20:43 -0500 Subject: christian text in nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At the risk of over simplifying, Nahuatl [h] is like English [h] (and like Caribbean Spanish [h]). That's one advantage of using [..] -- we're being literal. [h] is characterized mainly by an unobstructed, non-constricted oral passage. Say "hot" and you've produced it. [more below] On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > Wait a second, some North American English speakers pronounce their Rs by > drawing the backmost part of their tongue even farther backwards, even to > the point of contacting the uvula, hence its being called a retroflex R. > Is the Nahuatl h sound similar to that? (And I have heard some Frisians > utter their 'ch' sound like that, too.) So, is the Nahuatl 'h' sound > produced in the same way, by producing something that is almost a closure > between the back of the tongue and the uvula? I strongly doubt that comparing sound spectrograms of these sounds would enlighten most people. The only people that *would* benefit from the viewing would be people who already had a lot of experience in articulatory phonetics and its correlations with acoustic phonetics (i.e., what you glean from spectrograms). --And the differences are so gross that you don't need the help of the acoustic hints. Best regards, Joe > > Say, do you have a suggestion of a link on the web that has sound > spectrographs we can view and print out, so we can compare the > Nahuatl 'h' sound to the American retroflex 'r' sound and some > other national sounds, like German 'chlor' as opposed to Dutch > and Frisian 'chlor' sounds? I hope I am not introducing noise > into the list, this just makes me wonder a little bit. I have > had the benefit of hearing a Nahuatl 'tl' sound from an actual > speaker a couple years ago, without which benefit I would be > wondering about it to this day. > > > From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Sep 5 16:45:19 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 11:45:19 CDT Subject: Christian texts Message-ID: Dear friends, I am out of the office, but have caught the most recent series of missives on Christian texts. Before we get too far afield, remember that several score books were printed in Nahuatl prior to 1820 and a huge percentage of those were ?Christian?? texts. The first book published in the New World was a catechism in Nahuatl. Several members of the list, in fact, have done extensive work on this literature. Especially see Barry Sell?s dissertation from UCLA on works printed in Nahuatl in the 16th century. J. F. Schwaller List owner John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E. 4th Street Morrris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Sep 17 18:43:37 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:43:37 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Aztec manuscripts on display Message-ID: >X-Sender: rbaber at nsit-imap.uchicago.edu (Unverified) >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 >Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:17:47 -0500 >To: midwest-latam at listhost.uchicago.edu >From: Erika Kneen >AZTEC MANUSCRIPTS DISPLAYED AT THE NEWBERRY > >CHICAGO--This fall, a series of displays connects the Newberry Library?s >diverse collections in the humanities to people?s lives. Timely and >informal, these displays offer a taste of the collections and relate to >issues of the daylocal and world events, national holidays and >commemorative anniversariesas well as to Newberry programs. > > >From October 5, through October 17, 2002, in honor of Hispanic Heritage > Month, the Newberry will display rare Aztec manuscripts from its collections. > >Collection materials on display may include, but are not limited to, the >following items: > >? Historia de las cosas de Nueva Espana, text and illustration plate >facsimiles of Father Bernardino de Sahag?n?s General History of the things >of New Spain, written from 1540-1563 and reproduced for the School of >American Research, University of Utah: 1950-1982. English and Aztec. >? Exercisios quotidianos en lengua mexicana, contemporary copy of Father >Bernardino de Sahag?n?s 1574 correction and reworking of an anonymous >compilation of Biblical readings and meditations in Nahuatl, the Aztec >language. >? Bezzero general menologico y chronologico de todos los religiosos que de >las tres parcialidades conviene, Comprehensive catalogue, written by >Franciscan priest by Francisco Antonio de la Rosa Figueroa, which includes >historical and biographical information on members of the Franciscan order >in New Spain from 1524 to 1764. Figueroa's catalogue, which he wrote from >1755-1764, opens with preliminary notes concerning his methods and >sources; and brief comments on the mother province, Santo Evangelio in >Mexico City, and subordinate provinces of Michoac?n, Jalisco, Yucat?n, >Guatemala, Zacatecas, Lima, the Philippines, and Florida. In Spanish. >? Siguense unos sermones de dominicas y de santos en lengua mexicana, >compilations of sermons in Nahuatl by Father Bernardino de Sahag?n, begun >in 1540 and revised and corrected in 1563. Manuscript is on pounded bark >paper. (Please note: This item may not be displayed due to conservation >concerns.) > >For more information, please call the Center for Public Programs at (312) >255-3700. > > >----------------------------------------------------------- >Erika Kneen >Public Relations Manager >The Newberry Library >60 W. Walton St., Chicago 60610 >Phone: (312) 255-3553 >Fax: (312) 255-3543 > John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From notoca at hotmail.com Wed Sep 18 00:38:28 2002 From: notoca at hotmail.com (Chichiltic Coyotl) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:38:28 +0800 Subject: Eclipse Message-ID: Niltze Heather: Ica na:huatl eclipse, mihtoa Cualo:ca - i.e. the state of having been eaten No:, mihtoah Eclipse of the Sun ------------------ Iqualo:ca in to:natiuh Tonatiuh iqualo:ca Cualoto:natiuh Eclipse of the Moon ------------------- Iqualo:ca in me:tztli Me:tztli iqualo:ca Cualome:tztli >From: Heather Hess >Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:53:26 -0400 > >p.s. How do you say Eclipse in Nahuatl! > >Thanks again! > >Benedictiones! > >Heather >http://www.hotmail.com > > Copyright ? AZTLAN 2002. > All rights reserved. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From Matthew.McDavitt at gecapital.com Mon Sep 23 17:19:02 2002 From: Matthew.McDavitt at gecapital.com (McDavitt, Matthew T (CAP, CARD)) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 13:19:02 -0400 Subject: origin of 'Cipactli' Message-ID: I am an anthropological researcher documenting the cultural importance of sharks and rays in world cultures. I have a question regarding the origin and meaning of the word 'cipactli'. While this word is often translated as 'caiman', 'alligator', or 'crocodile', to my knowledge, this term never appears as a general word for crocodilians, but appears exclusively as a proper name for the aquatic earth-monster. Seler suggested that perhaps the term derives from 'tzihuactli', a spiny wild plant mentioned in several texts, and thus, the name Cipactli would connote this creature's ubiquitous spines. However, similar words appear in neighboring languages, some which conceivably predating the appearance of Nahuatl in the Valley of Mexico (e.g. the aquatic monster 'Sipakna' from the Quiche Popol Vuh). I have never encountered another Nahuatl term beginning with the morpheme 'sip'; could this indicate that Cipactli is perhaps a loan word from another language? Certainly the iconography of Cipactli is found among other societies which predate the Aztecs (such as the Mixtecs). Another consideration is that 'cipac' appears to function as a root word, used to name various finned aquatic animals, much as the word 'coyotl' is used to name conceptually linked animals such as the 'azca-coyotl' ['ant-coyote', = anteater], 'a-coyotl' ['water-coyote'=sea-lion], etc... Thus we find 'atli-cipactli' [waterfall?-cipactli] for whale (Teogonia e historia de los Mexicanos) and 'a-cipaquitli' [water?-cipac-i?] for the sawfish (Sahagun vol. 2 & 11). This generic finned animal cannot refer to the quadroped crocodile; could this term designate the shark, the remains of which are found in abundance entombed beneath the Templo Mayor, an animal linked iconographically to the earth-monster Cipactli? As I am not an expert in Nahuatl, I would greatly welcome any comments or insights regarding the origin and interpretation of this enigmatic word . For a cursory account of the iconography and significance of Cipactli, please see: McDavitt, M.T. 2002. "Cipactli's sword, Tlaltecuhtli's teeth: deciphering the sawfish & shark remains in the Aztec Great Temple". SHARK NEWS 14 (March): 6-7. Kind regards, Matthew McDavitt email: nokogiri at aol.com From notoca at hotmail.com Wed Sep 25 00:35:05 2002 From: notoca at hotmail.com (Chichiltic Coyotl) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:35:05 +0800 Subject: Que:nin mihtoa:h? Message-ID: Niltze Que:nin mihtoa:h ica na:huatl the difference i:hua:n the difference between? Tlazohca:mati CC _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From jsullivan3 at mac.com Wed Sep 25 02:55:02 2002 From: jsullivan3 at mac.com (John Sullivan, Ph.D.) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:55:02 -0500 Subject: Que:nin mihtoa:h? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Huampox, Amo nicmati quenicatza moilhuia "difference", pero macehualme de la Huasteca quitoa "amo zan ce tlachiya" quema quitoznequi "its not the same". John Sullivan, Ph.D. Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco Garc?a Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 M?xico Tel: +52 (492) 768-6048 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On 9/24/02 7:35 PM, "Chichiltic Coyotl" wrote: > Niltze > > Que:nin mihtoa:h ica na:huatl the difference i:hua:n the difference between? > > Tlazohca:mati > > CC > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Sep 30 15:33:37 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 10:33:37 -0500 Subject: Cocoxochitl Message-ID: Someone has recently contacted to inquire if cocoxochitl refers to the flower we call a dahlia. Clearly it means yellow-flower, but beyond that I am at a loss. Any thoughts out there? John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From clayton at indiana.edu Mon Sep 30 16:55:13 2002 From: clayton at indiana.edu (mary l. clayton) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 11:55:13 -0500 Subject: Cocoxochitl In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020930103237.02b43e50@cda.mrs.umn.edu> Message-ID: Fritz, According to Louise Schoenhals' _A_ _Spanish_-_English_ _Glossary_ _of_ _Mexican_ _Flora_ and _Fauna_ (SIL 1988): "cocoxo'chitl 1. (Dahlia spp., e.g., D. coccinea) "dahlia" Also called charahuesca, dalia. 2. (Dahlia coccinea) "wild dahlia" Very large flowering plants. Flowers are simple and range from reddish-orange to yellow. The plants grow wild in the forests and glades of many mountain areas. They may be up to 4 meters tall. Also called dalia." Joe has several examples of 'acocoxochitl' from the Florentine Codex, which Dibble and Anderson translate 'Dahlia' and identify as D. coccinea. (book 11 p.199 in their edition). They refer to Hernandez vol 1 p.24. They also have (book 11 p.212) "xallacocotli - It is a stalk, hollow, spongy within. The name of its bloom, its blossom is acocoxochitl. It is chili-red, brown, yellow; it is fuzzy, developed, round -- rounded. Its petals are straight, wide, tender; they disintegrate." footnote "xallacocotli - arracacia atropurpurea There is also a 'tepeacocoxochitl' ('wild acocochitl'): "Iztaquiltic. also its name is tepeacocoxochitl. It is stalky, somewhat long, with branches [and leaves] like the ahuehuetl. Its leaves are green, slick." There follows a paragraph on its medicinal properties and the maladies that it treats, concluding "It grows in the forest, in the mountains." (book 11 p.160) How this relates to the hybridized flowers known as dahlias, I don't know. I'd say the next step would be for the person to check on the species mentioned. Of course, it's important to remember that many of the plants and flowers that we see in catalogs don't occur in nature, and also that they didn't have our system of nomenclature. Mary On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, John F. Schwaller wrote: > > Someone has recently contacted to inquire if cocoxochitl refers to the > flower we call a dahlia. Clearly it means yellow-flower, but beyond that I > am at a loss. > > Any thoughts out there? > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at mrs.umn.edu > > > From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Mon Sep 30 16:57:56 2002 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 17:57:56 +0100 Subject: Cocoxochitl In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020930103237.02b43e50@cda.mrs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On 30 Sep 2002, at 10:33, John F. Schwaller wrote: > Someone has recently contacted to inquire if cocoxochitl refers > to the flower we call a dahlia. Clearly it means yellow-flower, but > beyond that I am at a loss. Any thoughts out there? I once saw a TV gardening-type program about the history of dahlias, and it showed an early picture of a dahlia, with a title COCOXOCHITL. It also said that dalhias came from Mexico. Citlalyani. From alanrking at yahoo.com Mon Sep 30 18:18:44 2002 From: alanrking at yahoo.com (Alan King) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 11:18:44 -0700 Subject: Pipil/Nahuat(e) questions Message-ID: I am new to the list, and I don't know whether I am expected to introduce myself, but would like to. I have been working in Basque linguistics for over twenty years, both in theoretical (chiefly grammatical) and various practical (applied) areas. I also have wider interests, largely typological, in many languages ranging from Europe to Oceania, and I tend to work mainly with minority languages. I have a good command of Spanish. However, I lack experience with Native American languages, and that fact sets the tone of this my first posting to the list. I am about to spend approximately a year in El Salvador for personal reasons. Apart from a three-week preliminary visit earlier this year, this is my first experience residing in Latin America. I would very much like this visit to be an occasion for expanding my horizons in terms of both learning from and contributing to my new environment. I am at present trying to prepare and document myself, prior to leaving in a few weeks. >From my initial reading and inquiries I have found out that the main indigenous language of El Salvador is Pipil or Nahuat(e), which is either a dialect of Nahuatl or very closely related indeed (if it is to be considered a separate language). I have also learnt that it is on the very edge of extinction if not indeed already extinct (as my information is not up-to-date). Finally, I have got hold of a copy of what I assume to be the standard work on Pipil/Nahuat to date, Lyle Campbell's 1985 book "The Pipil Language of El Salvador", which I am now studying. That is really all I know. The acquaintances I made in San Salvador on my last visit seemed to have little knowledge of or interest in the actual present-day situation of the language or its speakers (or non-speakers), although they otherwise seemed like very nice people. I should add that I am not oblivious of or unsensitive to the very difficult overall situation of the country at the present time: lack of resources, urgent priorities, etc. etc. Now I will come to my question, and it is a very general one to begin with; I may follow up with more specific, detailed and academic queries afaterwards, but first I need to "feel out the situation" as it were. I am assuming that there must be somebody in Nahuatl Studies with some interest or experience in Pipil, even if it does probably doesn't hole a central place in the discipline. At this point I am looking for general advice on where to go, what can be done, and also basic information on the current state of affairs. Basically anything, but it is not easy to find out much (even the Internet has fallen short here). The following is NOT a questionnaire but merely suggestive of some of the things I'd like to know to start off with. Can anyone help? 1. How many speakers of Pipil are left, if any? Where are they, and what is their situation? 2. Are there people in El Salvador who are interested in studying, teaching or cultivating the language, or who would view such activities favourably? Who are they and where can they be found? 3. What is the popular attitude to the issue at present (beyond the ignorance or indifference I have so far encountered)? What is the official attitude? What views are found within academic circles? 4. What resources exist in the country, or indeed in other countries, for pursuing an interest in the Pipil language? What interest exists, for that matter, in circles where Nahuatl is studied? 5. Are there any ongoing programs concerned with the language, or individuals working in the field, who could be contacted, with a view to either learning about or contributing in some way to the endeavour? 6. What other advice or suggestions can anybody give me? I'm sorry about the length of this post. Next time I shall try to be more brief! Pampa Diyux! Alan R. King Basque Country ===== ---------------------------------------------- Please reply to ONE (not both) of the following addresses (ONLY) / Erantzun bakarrik helbide hauetako BATERA mesedez (ez bietara): alanking at eirelink.com / alanrking at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Sep 30 19:03:41 2002 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 14:03:41 -0500 Subject: Cocoxochitl In-Reply-To: <48257.10.3.36.17.1033411908.squirrel@webmail.coatli.com> Message-ID: At 11:51 AM 9/30/02 -0700, you wrote: >"Cocol-" often refers to sickness or pain, and I think it would be >unlikely that the "cocolxochitl" would not also be related to this in some >way. The way I had viewed it was coco(z) + xochitl for yellow flower. There is a common flower identified as: cocoxochipahtli which is a yellow medicine flower Which obviously would have curative powers. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From robert at coatli.com Mon Sep 30 19:02:35 2002 From: robert at coatli.com (Robert Barkaloff) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 12:02:35 -0700 Subject: Cocoxochitl Message-ID: "Cocol-" often refers to sickness or pain, and I think it would be unlikely that the "cocolxochitl" would not also be related to this in some way. Perhaps it is an appropriate flower for the sick as the "cempoalxochitl," or twentieth (or last, because it is the last, or summary, in a series of 20 day signs) is an appropriate flower for the dead. Robert Barkaloff robert at coatli.com > > Someone has recently contacted to inquire if cocoxochitl refers to the > flower we call a dahlia. Clearly it means yellow-flower, but beyond > that I am at a loss. > > Any thoughts out there? > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at mrs.umn.edu