From menchaca at stsci.edu Fri Jan 3 21:35:30 2003 From: menchaca at stsci.edu (menchaca at stsci.edu) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 16:35:30 -0500 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? Message-ID: I came upon this site recently and thought it might be of interest to members of the list. -g nahuatl.info for general information http://nahuatl.info/nahuatl.htm "The Nahuatl Tlahtokalli at nahuatl.info is an online Nahuatl language learning center initiated by graduate-level students Citlalin Xochime (Star Blossoms) & Itztli Ehecatl (Obsidian Wind). This project began in the xiuitl (year) Yei-Tochtli (3 rabbit), in the metztli (month) of Teotleko (when the energy is united) of the Mexica calendar, a time also known as October 2002 according to the Julian calendar. We simply wanted a place to facilitate our understanding of Nahuatl culture while developing fluency of the language to such a degree that we may comfortably visit Nahuatl speaking villages. To attain these goals, we reserved an entire domain with 250 MB of storage for maintaining an interactive message board, scheduled weekly classes in our chat room, review sessions, quizzes, and sound clips of Nahuatl speakers." From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Jan 4 22:47:14 2003 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 17:47:14 -0500 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: <030103163530.2160331c@stsci.edu> Message-ID: It appears to me that Citlalin Xochime and Itztli Ehecatl [sic] need to learn more Nahuatl morphology before they presume to teach or quiz other would-be Nahuatl learners. From ehlegorreta at prodigy.net.mx Sun Jan 5 00:06:39 2003 From: ehlegorreta at prodigy.net.mx (Ernesto Herrera Legorreta) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 18:06:39 -0600 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: According to some well-regarded minds from the past, the possession of any significant amount of knowledge turns instantly from blessing into character defect the moment a person loses her humility. -- Frances Karttunen wrote on 2003.01.04 : " It appears to me that Citlalin Xochime and Itztli Ehecatl [sic] need to learn more Nahuatl morphology before they presume to teach or quiz other would-be Nahuatl learners. " From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Jan 5 18:12:06 2003 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:12:06 -0500 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: <030103163530.2160331c@stsci.edu> Message-ID: I'm always happy to see interest in Nahuatl. This site's overview of the various Nahuatl dialects is very nice and informative. But adding to Fran's rejoinder, I should add that there are a couple of important mistakes at the website's homepage. The phrase "Nahuatl is an ancient language spoken by our Mexica/Azteca, Tolteca, Olmeca..." is incorrect. I'm surprised to find such a statement. Of the peoples listed here only the Mexica and Azteca spoke Nahuatl. Also, the phrase "Hopi is almost identical to Nahuatl..." is a mistake. Hopi is indeed related to Nahuatl but can hardly be termed "almost identical". Best, Michael McCafferty On Fri, 3 Jan 2003 menchaca at stsci.edu wrote: > I came upon this site recently and thought it might be of interest > to members of the list. > -g > > nahuatl.info > > for general information > http://nahuatl.info/nahuatl.htm > > "The Nahuatl Tlahtokalli at nahuatl.info is an online Nahuatl language learning > center initiated by graduate-level students Citlalin Xochime (Star Blossoms) > & Itztli Ehecatl (Obsidian Wind). This project began in the xiuitl (year) > Yei-Tochtli (3 rabbit), in the metztli (month) of Teotleko (when the energy > is united) of the Mexica calendar, a time also known as October 2002 > according to the Julian calendar. We simply wanted a place to facilitate > our understanding of Nahuatl culture while developing fluency of the language > to such a degree that we may comfortably visit Nahuatl speaking villages. > To attain these goals, we reserved an entire domain with 250 MB of storage > for maintaining an interactive message board, scheduled weekly classes in > our chat room, review sessions, quizzes, and sound clips of Nahuatl speakers." > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu "When you eventually see through the veils to how things really are, you will keep saying again and again, "This is certainly not like we thought it was". --Rumi From Huaxyacac at aol.com Sun Jan 5 20:12:25 2003 From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:12:25 EST Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? Message-ID: In a message dated 1/5/2003 8:13:14 AM Hawaiian Standard Time, mmccaffe at indiana.edu writes: > The phrase "Nahuatl is an > ancient language spoken by our Mexica/Azteca, Tolteca, Olmeca..." is > incorrect. I'm surprised to find such a statement. Of the peoples listed > here only the Mexica and Azteca spoke Nahuatl. Just out of curiosity, what language do you believe the Tolteca spoke, if not Nahuatl? Cheers, Alec Christensen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Jan 6 06:17:53 2003 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 01:17:53 -0500 Subject: FW: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: <33537.12.254.209.145.1041827383.squirrel@www.nahuatl.info> Message-ID: From: Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:29:43 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Re: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? We are poor graduate students, using a few Nahuatl coursework resources, and our own money to maintain the nahuatl.info website. We are certainly NO EXPERTS - in fact, we are beginner students ourselves (as if we need to inform you of this). Mainly, we offer Nahuatl study in an online format. We don't have the money to take expensive Nahuatl courses at any U.S. university - and we certainly don't have the money to travel to Mexico and take real Nahuatl classes. What we do have is pride and a desire to learn what has been robbed from us (our language and culture) as the result of colonial invaders. We're not out to impress Amerikan academic institutions, rather - we aim to be able to visit Nahuatl speaking communities - and to communicate with our people - whether that communication is poorly structured or not - at least we are trying to do something positive for our beloved culture. I have your analytical dictionary - and I try to read from it everyday - as well as the other Nahuatl resources that I have. So please, offer any helpful resources or references to us, rather than your criticism. Citlalin Xochime From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Jan 6 06:36:57 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 01:36:57 -0500 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: <10d.1da7b93f.2b49eba9@aol.com> Message-ID: I think that this discussion could be of interest and value to two groups: those of Nahuat-l and those of itztliehecatl at geocities.com. Some of the discussions may turn out to be of more interest than value if we all think like most people do about language: namely, my way is better and the most important reason is because it is what I learned first (the other reasons? -- well, I don't have any really substantive ones...). I sympathize with the desire to spread knowledge about Nahuatl. I am familiar with the enthusiasm that the language arouses in one. I have often said (with no chauvinistic motives) that if a Great Language Engineer sat down at His table and set out to design a beautiful clockwork language system, it would end up looking just like Nahuatl. I have also noted that most people who ever get bitten by the Nahuatl bug never totally get over their fever. The interest lives on. I hope that it is obvious that my remarks are meant in a constructive way. And naturally, most of what I take the trouble to write needs to concentrate on *improvement*, not head-nodding on everything that I agree with. A basic choice that we all make in our lessons and materials about Nahuatl is the orthography. On the Nahuatl Tlahtokalli website (hereafter NT), they say "... these lessons is NOT the classical form but the phonetics [sic] for. The classical form of Nahuatl is severly [sic] outdate and few people speak ... form today." I have thought about the spelling issue for years and it seems to me that the choice most people make is the way they chose their political parties or their religion -- it is seldom a matter of what advantages are offered by one system or the other. It is more often decided by one's early environment, perhaps a declaration by a teacher or a group feeling concerning tradition (or breaking with tradition). My own first written records (thick files of them) are filled with 'k', 'w', 'c-hachek', etc. I approached the dialect of Tepoztlan (and outlying Santa Catarina), Morelos with a tape recorder, a pad of yellow paper, and no regard for any possible body of related language material. However, after a whole summer in Tepoztlan and returning to my home library, I can be excused for my next act of over-exuberance -- I opened the overflowing treasures of: 1) Molina's 1571 dictionaries and 2) Dibble and Anderson's text and translation of the Florentine Codex. If time had been short during the summer (and the flesh too weak to extend the work days), here was a way to continue penetrating the language! But I *did* have to face the difference in orthography -- Molina didn't use my 'k w kw s ts...etc.' -- he did a natural and common thing -- he simply adapted his Spanish spelling system (ignoring long vowels and glottal stops), as did Sahagun with the "Florentine Codex" (with considerably more irregularity). But it was easy to read and I soon found myself writing with 'qu' instead of 'k'. When I moved to 'qu', I put myself in touch with a large body of material which has been recorded since the arrival of the Spaniards. If I had stuck with 'k', all that rich body of text would look "quaint" to me. If I were designing materials that I hoped would be helpful to Spanish speakers (some of them possible monolingual), I would use the 'qu' (and the spelling that goes with it) in order to reduce impediments in learning the important things. to be continued..... Best regards with your endeavors, Joe (Ce:ncah Xo:chichil) From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Mon Jan 6 08:15:48 2003 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 08:15:48 -0000 Subject: Nahuatl textbooks; dialects Message-ID: What progress has there been in forthcoming Nahuatl textbooks since July 2001 (Andrews's books; Molina translated into English; etc)? I have been busy with other things for much of the time since. If someone speaks in Classical Nahuatl, how well can modern Nahuatl dialect speakers understand him? Citlalyani. From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Mon Jan 6 09:54:43 2003 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 01:54:43 -0800 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, r. joe campbell wrote: | But I *did* have to face the difference in orthography -- Molina didn't |use my 'k w kw s ts...etc.' -- he did a natural and common thing -- he |simply adapted his Spanish spelling system (ignoring long vowels and |glottal stops), Perhaps you will explain why adopting the Spanish spelling system strikes you as a natural and common thing? |as did Sahagun with the "Florentine Codex" (with considerably more |irregularity). But it was easy to read and I soon found myself writing |with 'qu' instead of 'k'. For those of us with little or no exposure to Spanish's orthography, I am not so sure it will be an 'easy' thing to chin up and plod through. | When I moved to 'qu', I put myself in touch with a large body of |material which has been recorded since the arrival of the Spaniards. This seems to be the most telling argument in favor of Spanish's orthography. And you seem to be suggesting that the body of material is so vast that it will never be regularized with the 'k' and 'kw' orthography. |If I had stuck with 'k', all that rich body of text would look |"quaint" to me. Are you saying it is impractical - if not impossible - to write a computer program to translate the spellings from Nahuatl to Nawatl? | If I were designing materials that I hoped would be helpful to |Spanish speakers (some of them possible monolingual), I would use |the 'qu' (and the spelling that goes with it) in order to reduce |impediments in learning the important things. But you are presupposing a Spanish-speaking audience to receive your preferred spelling system. If you start your argument with a chip on your shoulder, it is that much harder to put some other chip there. From jrader at merriam-webster.com Mon Jan 6 14:26:05 2003 From: jrader at merriam-webster.com (Jim Rader) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:26:05 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl etymology of "Olmec" Message-ID: Seeing that the recent reaction to the Nahuatl.info website has everyone on the list wide awake, I thought I would forward the following query from Alan Hartley (with his permission), which appeared on the electronic newsletter of SSILA (Society for the Study of the Indigenous Languages of the Americas). Mr. Hartley has since informed me that he received replies from Fran Karttunen and Bill Bright. If anyone else has anything of interest to say, I would be curious as well. Jim Rader Nahuatl etymology of "Olmec" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >From Alan H. Hartley (ahartley at d.umn.edu) 20 Dec 2002: I am a consultant on American Indian ethnonyms for the OED. In reviewing the proposed OED entries OLMEC and OLMECA (primarily for the proper sense assignment of the various English citations), I thought it would be wise also to solicit expert opinion on the etymology. The recent stages are clear--Sp. Olmeca < Nahuatl olmecah (sg. form olmecatl)--but on the gloss of the Nahuatl name as 'people of the land of rubber' and its derivation from olman 'land of rubber' (< olli 'rubber') the consensus is less solid. As I'm not equipped to etymologize in Nahuatl, I wonder if there's someone who could help. Also, early attestations of the name are often in juxtaposition or composition with the name Xical(l)anca. Can anyone tell me the earliest occurrence of the name (as olmeca or ulmeca) in either the simple or the composite form? --Alan Hartley Duluth, Minnesota (ahartley at d.umn.edu) From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jan 6 14:46:43 2003 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:46:43 -0500 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, r. joe campbell wrote: > | But I *did* have to face the difference in orthography -- Molina didn't > |use my 'k w kw s ts...etc.' -- he did a natural and common thing -- he > |simply adapted his Spanish spelling system (ignoring long vowels and > |glottal stops), > > Perhaps you will explain why adopting the Spanish spelling system strikes > you as a natural and common thing? > I can't speak for Joe or anyone, but from my experience it's very *useful* to have the Spanish spelling system under your belt as it opens up a universe of dictionaries, grammars and texts. It's the perfect key. In my Algonquian work I use strictly IPA symbols. It's good to know your way around different orthographies. In early historic North America the Jesuit and Recollect missionaries used a digraph that looks a lot like the number 8 to represent a whole host of somewhat related sounds that occurred in the native languages. For example, in the recordings of the Miami-Illinois language, in word-initial position, this orthographic symbol can represent /w-/, sometimes /o:w-/ before a vowel, and /o-/ ~ /u-/ before a consonant. In intervocalic position it stands for /-w-/, sometimes /-o(:)w-/. Between consonants that are not followed by /w/ and a following vowel it stands for either /o(:)w/ - ~ /u(:)-/. When it appears between two consonants,the glyph represents /-o(:)-/ ~ /-u(:)-/. And in word-final position, 8 typically represents /-o(:)/ ~ /-u(:)/. ( the sign : = vowel length ) Depending on what you're doing and what you want, knowing other orthographies can be very useful. > |as did Sahagun with the "Florentine Codex" (with considerably more > |irregularity). But it was easy to read and I soon found myself writing > |with 'qu' instead of 'k'. > > For those of us with little or no exposure to Spanish's orthography, > I am not so sure it will be an 'easy' thing to chin up and plod > through. I teach Nahuatl. It takes even the slowest learners about two minutes to learn the old Spanish orthography. I had a woman in my class last semester who did not have any language "talent". But she had a desire to learn Nahuatl since some of her ancestors had spoken it. She learned the orthography in a day. It's basically straight forward "continental" spelling with a few changes. Very simple to learn. No biggy/ > > | When I moved to 'qu', I put myself in touch with a large body of > |material which has been recorded since the arrival of the Spaniards. > > This seems to be the most telling argument in favor of Spanish's > orthography. And you seem to be suggesting that the body of material > is so vast that it will never be regularized with the 'k' and 'kw' > orthography. Ah. Joe does make this point. Ok. Right, Matthew. It's so huge nobody will ever *want* to sit down and piddle with the orthography. What it boils down to is this: you gotta know both the old and the modern to be a successful learner of the entire chronological spectrum of Nahuatl. > > |If I had stuck with 'k', all that rich body of text would look > |"quaint" to me. > > Are you saying it is impractical - if not impossible - to write a > computer program to translate the spellings from Nahuatl to Nawatl? > Since I'm not a computer maven, I'll bow out on this one. I imagine you could, but why? It's not a perfect analogy-- and I can certain understand, say, translating Shakespeare into 21st century Bronx English, but don't you think it's also nice to have good old Wm. around as well to enrich things. > | If I were designing materials that I hoped would be helpful to > |Spanish speakers (some of them possible monolingual), I would use > |the 'qu' (and the spelling that goes with it) in order to reduce > |impediments in learning the important things. > > But you are presupposing a Spanish-speaking audience to receive > your preferred spelling system. If you start your argument with > a chip on your shoulder, it is that much harder to put some other > chip there. > Well, now I can speak for Joe. There ain't no chip. So, your point is moot. Best, Michael > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu "When you eventually see through the veils to how things really are, you will keep saying again and again, "This is certainly not like we thought it was". --Rumi From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Jan 6 20:54:47 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:54:47 -0500 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ...continued (read all this with the introductory phrase: "I may be wrong about this (particularly not knowing the dialect in question), but...") [Further, these comments are offered in the spirit of constructive criticism.] When we learn modern Nahuatl, since it has split into many varieties (some people would say that every town has its own dialect), it is a good idea to be explicit about what area your material comes from. I noticed in the vocabulary list at Nahuatl Tlahtokalli that the dialect used seemed to preserve syllable-final 'h' (tahtli, nehnemi), but there were many words where it was lacking (e.g., mitotiani, zitli). Another problem with 'h': 'yakatzotzomaktli' for 'yakatzotzomahtli' (handkerchief). 'kuezpallin' is not a likely form. Double-l ('ll') is (almost) always *formed* in Nahuatl (by l+tl or l+y) and the absolutive noun suffix here is '-in'. Also, the 'z' is in doubt -- although 'tz' becomes 'z' in syllable-final position in many dialects, the vocabulary on the website contains words with syllable-final 'tz', indicating that this dialect doesn't do that. 'Mopampa' and 'ipampa' are given with the meanings 'for you' and 'for him, her, it', respectively. Since '-pampa' means 'because', this looks like a translation of 'por ti' -- 'because of you' (not something intended for you). 'Kalakia' is given with the meaning 'put', giving the reader the impression that he could 'kalakia' something *on* the ground, but 'kalakia' means to 'put *in*, insert'; just putting is expressed with 'tlalia'. I really doubt that 'go out' and 'throw' are 'kitza' and 'tlatza', respectively. They are more likely to be 'kiza' and 'tlaza' (as they are in all dialects I know). This would eliminate the need for a statement of irregularity in the grammar that says that 'tz' becomes 'z' at the end of a word in the past tense. kiza he goes out okiz he went out kitlaza she throws it okitlaz she threw it Further, 'tz' doesn't become 'z' at the end of a word anyway: kipitza he blows it okipitz he blew it It is dangerous to add the non-specific object 'tla-'to verb stems or to sub from nouns derived from verbs. In the glossary, It is dangerous to either add or subtract the non-specific object 'tla-' from verb stems or from nouns derived from verbs. In the glossary, 'tlalnamiki' is given as 'think, imagine, reflect', hiding an 'i' from the learner -- possibly tempting him into thinking that the following is correct: niktlalnamiki* I think it But the stem is '-ilnamiki', the correct form being: nikilnamiki The opposite occurs in: kualchichiua to cook (the 'tla-' of tlakualli is not removable) [from 'tlakualli' (food) + 'chichiua' (prepare)] koualiztli merchandise ('tlakoualiztli' can't lose its 'tla-') There seems to be a serious problem in the spelling of words with 'tz' and 'z' (in addition to 'kiza' and 'tlaza' mentioned above). Correct Incorrect azkatl atzkatl eztli etztli iztak itztak There are probably more of these and attention to the issue would clean up a lot of words in one swell foop. In the opposite direction: Correct Incorrect tlalpitzaliztli tlalpizaliztli (from tla-il-pitza-liz-tli 'act of blowing something') A simple misprint: lnaitl for maitl (arm). In focusing on the problem of people possibly pronouncing 'll' as a [y] as in Spanish, an erroneous piece of advice is given to the effect that 'll' is pronounced as one 'l'. In fact, in most dialects, 'll' is pronounced *longer* than single 'l'. There is contrast in length between: tlalli earth, ground kitlalia he places it Rather than wear you out with more examples (as if I hadn't already), I will cease and desist at this point. Best regards, Joe (Ce:ncah Xo:chichil) p.s. #1: What dialect do the lessons come from? p.s. #2: Am I mixed up or should 'Tlahtocalli' be 'Tlahtolcalli'? From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Jan 6 21:39:30 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:39:30 -0500 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? Message-ID: >Are you saying it is impractical - if not impossible - to write a >computer program to translate the spellings from Nahuatl to Nawatl? There are two problems with this suggestion: 1. The humongous amount of literature available to potential readers of Nahuatl would have to be made machine readable or it couldn't be put through a possible computer program. 2. The spelling system of Nahuatl (as improved by Carochi to handle the glottal stop and long vowels and made available to a wide public in works by Andrews and Karttunen) is *regular*, but this just means that it can be read from print to voice (and vice versa) in a trustworthy way. This does not address the question of convertibility. On that question, a friend of mine and I independently wrote several programs to convert a large text to another orthography. He is a professional programmer and I have been a novice programmer for 35 years. We determined that the shape of Nahuatl words will allow one set of shapes to be modified correctly by one algorithm, but that algorithm will give garbage on another set of shapes. The program that gives proper attention to the second set of shapes will produce contrary results in the first set. The answer is to do the conversion with a program that will maximize the correct results -- and then clean up the remainder over a period of years by hand, at times resorting to morphological knowledge to solve stubborn cases. If the Nahuatlahtoh community wanted to consider the worthwhileness of adopting this "conversion mentality", we would have to ask ourselves what there is to *gain* from doing it. The answer, as I see it, would be entry facility for a very small percentage of people who might not be willing to exert the small effort of learning the Hispanic/Jesuit system (a point already addressed by Michael). And, of course, we would lose the reading facility and comfortable familiarity of all those who are already in the field. Best regards, Joe From nahuatl at nahuatl.info Tue Jan 7 00:26:57 2003 From: nahuatl at nahuatl.info (nahuatl at nahuatl.info) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:26:57 -0800 Subject: Response from nahuatl.info Message-ID: Tlazohkamati for your many comments and examples...though we at nahuatl.info (Nahuatl Tlahtolcalli) are only on lesson #7, and I am not convinced that I am capable of providing logical responses to all of your questions and comments. Yes, I will change our title to your correction "Tlahtolcalli." As far as the source of the dialect in the lessons that we study - Itztli Ehecatl has the Spanish/Nahuatl book by Martinez, which he obtained from the Nahuatl University. Yet, we have a long way to go in sorting out all of the details, such as (which dialect?) - and I cannot speak for Itztli who translated the lessons into English. I do know that Sr. Ramos' (Nahuatl Instructor) coursework is from Casa de Cultura de Cholula, San Pedro Cholula, Puebla, Mexico. Although Itztli is fluent in Spanish - I merely have Latin-based reading skills. English is my first language, and I only learned a handful of Nahuatl words as a child, of which I found some of the Nahuatl words to be unique to Nahuatl speakers in Torreon, Coahuila, Mexico. Perhaps the handful of Nahuatl words that I learned as a child were all that remained from a now disconnected past to my family’s Nahuatl speaking ancestors. My family "looks" like the "Olmecah" and I am not convinced that Olmecah ever "disappeared." Rather, I think they merely integrated with incoming Aztecah and other pre-existing Native peoples. [From what I understand "Olmecah" is an academically applied (?) Nahuatl word to the assumed, "mysterious" civilization that once ruled across Anahuac (MesoAmerica).] Yes, we do find many mistakes in our online Nahuatl lessons as we meet each week and I dutifully make the corrections to the website as often as I possibly can. For example, I don't accept "in" as a translation to mean "the." Our nahuatl.info chatroom has proved to be a valuable tool in our learning experiences, with indigenous knowledge being shared that is not readily found in your wonderful Nahuat-List. We will do our best to implement as many corrections as possible by using the Nahuat-List as a resource as well. My regards to all, Citlalin Xochime From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Jan 7 14:21:26 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 08:21:26 -0600 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? Message-ID: >>At 3:12 PM -0500 1/5/03, Huaxyacac at aol.com wrote: >> >In a message dated 1/5/2003 8:13:14 AM Hawaiian Standard Time, >> >mmccaffe at indiana.edu writes: >> > >> > >> > >> >The phrase "Nahuatl is an >> > ancient language spoken by our Mexica/Azteca, Tolteca, Olmeca..." is >> > incorrect. I'm surprised to find such a statement. Of the peoples listed >> > here only the Mexica and Azteca spoke Nahuatl. >> > >> > >> > >> > Just out of curiosity, what language do you believe the Tolteca spoke, if >> >not Nahuatl? >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Alec Christensen >> >>Yes, and what language(s) do you -- or anyone else -- think that the >>Olmeca-Xicalanca spoke? >> >>More questions... >> >>John Carlson From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Jan 7 16:13:39 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 10:13:39 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Me: Art exhibit offers a new reconstruction of Tenochtitlan Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 10:14:27 -0500 >Reply-To: Carolyn Tate >From: Carolyn Tate >Subject: Me: Art exhibit offers a new reconstruction of Tenochtitlan > > >For your information, > >"1519: The Wonders of Aztec Mexico. Paintings and models by Scott >and Stuart Gentling and Aztec Art from their Collection." The >debut of this exhibition will open in Lubbock, TX at the Buddy >Holly Fine Arts Center from 22 September 2003 to 22 November 2003. >A symposium will be held on 30 Oct 2003 in Lubbock. > >These twin brother-artists have spent nearly 30 years researching >archeology and ethnohistory to be able to create a new >reconstruction of the Sacred Precinct that incorporates all 78 >buildings mentioned by Sahagun. Their plan is unique in allowing >all the events of the Aztec monthly festivals, as described in >the 16th century, to be logically staged in the appropriate >shrines and platforms. They have realized this through the fire >of their own fascination, fueled by their consummate skill in >model building and painting. Both are informed, also, by their >profound understanding of Aztec religion, founded in scholarly >research, and of the formal qualities of Aztec art, of which they >have collected over 100 pieces. > >They have already conferred with archaeologists at the Templo >Mayor Project and with numerous Aztec scholars. This exhibition >in Lubbock will display the current, well-informed stage of their >thinking about Tenochtitlan. The Gentling brothers seek >additional feedback from scholars as they aim to complete a >two-volume book and a traveling exhibition. I encourage all those >interested in the Aztecs, Mesoamerican art and religion, and >Mesoamerican city planning to attend the symposium and ensuing >discussion and to see this remarkable body of work. > >The show includes 20 paintings, about 15 models of specific >temples and the entire Sacred Precinct, numerous drawings, and >about 90 Aztec objects. It is curated by Carolyn Tate. > >For more information, contact c.tate at ttu.edu > >Carolyn Tate >Associate Professor, Art History, >School of Art, Box 42081,Texas Tech University >Lubbock, TX 79409-2081 From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Jan 7 22:17:09 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 16:17:09 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl textbooks; dialects Message-ID: At 08:15 AM 1/6/03 +0000, you wrote: >What progress has there been in forthcoming Nahuatl textbooks >since July 2001 (Andrews's books; Molina translated into English; >etc)? I have been busy with other things for much of the time since. University of Oklahoma Press is beginning its advertising campaign for a March 2003 release of Andrews, Introduction to Classical Nahuatl. The following is a Books-In-Print record of the book. No price has been set, that I know of. http://www.booksinprint.com/merge_shared/Details/details.asp?navPage=1&item_uid=7838676&DataSource= I have heard of no project to translate the Molina dictionary to English. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Jan 8 01:46:22 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:46:22 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl textbooks; dialects In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030107161703.02b835a0@cda.mrs.umn.edu> Message-ID: Fritz, In 1972 I started punching IBM cards with the contents of Molina's 1571 Nahuatl-Spanish dictionary with the goal of translating it into English. Actually, the *real* reason for wanting to do that was to do a project that would force me to learn the dictionary. I left Indiana in 1973 and two Hoosier colleagues later shipped my 10 boxes of Molina to me in San Antonio on a Greyhound bus. By the beginning of the summer of 1974, I had the remaining cards punched and I was ready to translate Molina's Spanish definitions into English. I figured that six weeks was ample time and set to work, surrounded by dictionaries... 14 hours a day and seven days a week. Six weeks passed, the summer passed, and teaching classes impeded full-bore progress, but it was finished in the summer of 1976. About 25 presses turned it down for publication (fortunately) and gave me time to add the morphological analyses. And then it came out in 1985 as _A Morphological Dictionary of Classical Nahuatl_. To shorten the story, in 1998 I added Molina's 1555 and 1571 Spanish-Nahuatl dictionaries to the project and worked on the three dictionaries full time for two years. That was the background for Mary's and my "Alonso Molina as Lexicographer" that appeared recently in _Making Dictionaries: Preserving Indigenous Languages of the Americas_ (edited by William Frawley, Kenneth C. Hill, and Pamela Munro). The ongoing project involves the integration of Molina's three dictionaries, with English translations and morphological analyses. When will it be finished? 1972 isn't that long ago.... All the best, Joe On Tue, 7 Jan 2003, John F. Schwaller wrote: > > I have heard of no project to translate the Molina dictionary to English. > > From karttu at nantucket.net Wed Jan 8 17:27:05 2003 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 12:27:05 -0500 Subject: Number query Message-ID: Can someone direct me to a source or sources for an actual number of people said to have died when the Spanish forces under Pedro de Alvarado attacked the celebrants in the Templo Mayor? So far as I can find, although the Florentine Codex describes a great slaughter, there is no specific number of deaths mentioned. Is there such a figure somewhere else? I am working with a person who cites a number, but I suspect what he uses is the number of people calculated to have been sacrificed for the dedication of the temple, not the number of those killed in the Spanish attack. Thanks, Fran From menchaca at stsci.edu Wed Jan 8 20:07:53 2003 From: menchaca at stsci.edu (menchaca at stsci.edu) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:07:53 -0500 Subject: computational tool for exploration of language dictionaries Message-ID: An interesting project presenting lexical databases using XML. As of August 2002, the Nahuatl version (Kitlkitl) is in alpha. http://www-nlp.stanford.edu/kirrkirr/ Kirrkirr: a computational tool for the exploration of indigenous language dictionaries Kirrkirr is a research project exploring the use of computer software for automatic transformation of lexical databases ("dictionaries"), aiming at providing innovative information visualization, particularly targeted at indigenous languages. As a first example, it can generate networks of words automatically from dictionary data. The central idea motivating our research is that given any sort of well-structured lexical database, software should be able to automatically provide all sorts of value-added functionality. In recent years, there has been an enormous amount of work on different proposals for structuring and storing lexical databases, but almost no work on providing electronic dictionary interfaces which make use of this structure to provide human access and usability through information transformation and visualization. Kirrkirr explores ways of solving this unaddressed need. Technical details: Kirrkirr is designed so that it can work with any dictionary in XML format (XML is a new-ish, but already widespread standard for representing textual and other data, especially on the WWW). Most of our initial experience and papers concern applying the dictionary to Warlpiri, an Indigenous Australian language, but lately we've been building a version for Nahuatl, an Indigenous language of Mexico. It achieves this flexibility through use of a dictionary specification file (also in XML, mainly using XPath) which maps dictionary constructs to Kirrkirr constructs. Such a file does have to be written for each dictionary schema. Formatted entries are rendered using parameterized XSLT files, which can be customized for each dictionary schema. Other dictionary access is by XPath expressions accompanied by regular expression matching. The program is written in Java. Where possible we run it using current Java versions, but it is compatible with JDK1.1.8+Swing1.1, so that we can run it on MacOS 8 or 9 (still common in Australian schools!). From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Jan 9 14:30:49 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 08:30:49 -0600 Subject: Number query Message-ID: From: "Ricardo J. Salvador" To: Nahuat-L On Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 11:27 AM, Frances Karttunen wrote: > Can someone direct me to a source or sources for an actual number of > people > said to have died when the Spanish forces under Pedro de Alvarado > attacked > the celebrants in the Templo Mayor? So far as I can find, although the > Florentine Codex describes a great slaughter, there is no specific > number of > deaths mentioned. Is there such a figure somewhere else? > > I am working with a person who cites a number, but I suspect what he > uses is > the number of people calculated to have been sacrificed for the > dedication > of the temple, not the number of those killed in the Spanish attack. I'm surprised at the difficulty of finding the number you need. However, from what I can tell on scanning the materials on hand here, the difference between the number of victims sacrificed at the dedication of Huey Teocalli in 1487 and the number of people massacred during the celebration of Toxcatl in 1520 was at least one order of magnitude, perhaps two. You would think that numbers would be readily forthcoming from the side of the victims, but as you've pointed out, there are none provided by Sahagún's informants nor in the other obvious chronicles. However, from the Spanish side here are some referents: López de Gómara (a problematic source) gives an upper bound for the number of victims in the form of the number of participants in the Toxcatl ritual: (From 104. Causes of the Uprising): "More than six hundred (some say more than a thousand) gentlemen, and even several lords, assembled in the yard of the main temple, where that night they made a great hubbub with their drums, conches, trumpets, and bone fifes,..." So, if you accept this attestation, then the maximum possible number of Mexica victims was on the order of 1,000. Another Spanish source is the legal procedure against Alvarado for that very episode (Proceso de Residencia Instruido Contra Pedro de Alvarado y Nuño de Guzmán.) The relevant passage states (with faithful spelling): "...el dicho Pedro Dalvarado juntó a los españoles que tenía con todas sus armas y envió unos a la fortaleza donde estava preso el dicho Motenzuma con muchos señores e prencipales con sus servidores e criados... y syn causa ni razón alguna dieron sobrellos y mataron todos los mas de los señores que estavan presos con el dicho Motenzuma y mataron cuatro cientos señores e prencipales que con él estavan e mataron mucho numero de yndios que estavan baylando en mas cantidad de tres mil personas por lo qual la tierra se also viendo que syn razon los matavan..." So, again if you accept these highly charged accusations, levied after the conquest and whence the various parties were attempting to settle various scores against one another, the outer bound can be no larger than the actual number of Mexica participants in the festivities. These numbers, poor as they are in terms of trustworthiness, are the only concrete claims I've found after browsing all the relevant texts and native chronicles I've got here. They contrast markedly with the claims made for number of victims in 1487. Yólotl Gonzáles Torres (El Sacrificio Humano Entre los Mexicas) sets the range of possible victims there from the low bound of 2,500 captives contributed by 28 towns from Tepeaca (per Tezozómoc) to 20,000 (per Telleriano Remensis Codex), though he thinks even that claim is conflated with the fact that all who attended the dedication bled themselves and so also "sacrificed." He discounts as logistically impossible the famous claim from the Annals of Cuauhtitlan that 80,400 men were sacrificed. There are also intermediate claims, but the key thing is that it ought to be possible to distinguish the number of victims of the two events you want to separate. Victims of the temple dedication seem to number in the 10s of thousands, whereas victims of the Toxcatl massacre were in the hundreds and perhaps low thousands. Sorry that no more definitive numbers seem to be available. I repeat that I'm surprised (I thought for sure it would pop out of any number of the native chronicles compiled by León-Portilla in "Visión de los Vencidos," but no luck.) Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Jan 9 14:44:46 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 08:44:46 -0600 Subject: FW: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 02:31:59 -0600 Subject: Re: FW: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? From: "Ricardo J. Salvador" To: Nahuat-L Discussion List On Sunday, January 6, 2003, at 20:29:43 -800 (PST) , nahuatl at nahuatl.info wrote: >We are poor graduate students, using a few Nahuatl coursework >resources, and our own money to maintain the nahuatl.info website. We are >certainly NO EXPERTS - in fact, we are beginner students ourselves (as if we >need to inform you of this). Mainly, we offer Nahuatl study in an online >format. >We don't have the money to take expensive Nahuatl courses at any U.S. >university - and we certainly don't have the money to travel to Mexico >and take real Nahuatl classes. Citlalin, Understood. Since it is clear you have a genuine interest in learning Nahuatl, I am assuming you care about learning the language properly. I think this is particularly important since you seek to guide others in their learning and because an ultimate objective of yours is to communicate with native speakers of the language. Let me offer some concrete suggestions for improvement: (1) You've gathered a number of resources from around the web as support materials for your lessons. These consist primarily of word lists and the like. I must tell you directly that these sites are spurious and you shouldn't rely on them. It is particularly unnecessary for you to be limited in this regard because there is no shortage of good learning materials for Nahuatl. I want to point you to better resources, so I won't dwell on the various shortcomings of the web links that I've seen on your site, but I do want to give you one example so that you know what I mean. The NativeWeb link offers a particularly nonsensical list of words that it claims are from the "Nahuatl language of the Mayas of Mexico," and then proceeds to indeed offer an unholy mix of Mayan and Nahuatl words (with all sorts of egregious errors to boot). The same site then continues to expound on the "Zapotec language of the Mayas of Mexico"... When the Nahuat-L discussion list began it was common for some subscribers to join seeking support for learning the language. I put together a list of resources then to guide such folk, and your predicament (as described above), has spurred me to update it. Though I must still update many of the print materials given in this list, I've augmented it with a number of excellent, substantive resources that are now available online, including dictionaries, grammars, texts and lessons. It is these low-cost materials that I think will be of greatest value to you. Imagine the situation that would obtain if well-meaning beginners with plenty of zeal and energy all referred to one another and reinforced inaccurate information. You've managed to do this (and I'll suggest my explanation for this before I'm done), but you can do better, by referring to authoritative materials. So, just for you, the updated list of resources for learning Nahuatl is at: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/nahuatl.html One huge limitation that you will have in your efforts is the lack of opportunity to hear the language and to gradually build your listening ability and conversational skills. You clearly know this. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that in your media files you have a recording that I put online many years ago to illustrate the 20-day calendar round. You've edited this and added English gloss plus a repetition of the Nahuatl (I take it the English speaker is you.) Being frank, the pronunciation that you are offering as a guide for learners needs to be improved. EVERY sound that is key to proper Nahuatl is terribly mispronounced, in spite of the fact that you're following a recorded version of those sounds. I think I know why. These are unfamiliar and unknown sounds to you and you simply need to hear the sounds often and to understand how they are produced. I'm confident that with a little explanation of this and a lot of opportunity to hear the language you can improve markedly. This is a component of language learning that will be particularly difficult to supply electronically, and perhaps a number of us on the list could work toward making dialogues and various expressions available online, but that will take the cooperation of native speakers (who of course must agree to this) and a bit of concerted effort. In the meantime, following are a few sustained monologues in Nahuatl, spoken by by native speakers (these should be more useful than the ones you currently offer and they should help you and your companions perfect your hearing sense for the language): (a) Mexico's Instituto Nacional Indigenista (INI) has some short clips of native speakers online. I'll link you to some that are a bit comical but still very useful. The premise of one of INI's programs (=Que lengua hablas?) is that an audio database of native speakers = of all of Mexico's languages will be useful to distinguish how individual dialects differ from one another. Of course, for these to be useful then the speakers must be induced to pronounce the same utterances. The idea is to prompt the speaker to nod their head if they understand the language, then shake hands, and so on, and of course I smile when I listen to them because I think "well.. what if the person doesn't understand... ;-). But these ARE very instructive: [You'll need RealPlayer to hear these]: - Mexicano from Puebla's Sierra Norte: http://www.ini.gob.mx/lenguahablas/len_nahuatl_sntepuebla.ram -Mexicano from Tlapa, Guerrero: http://www.ini.gob.mx/lenguahablas/len_nahuatl_tlapagro.ram -Mexicano from Tancanhuiz, San Luis Potos=ED: http://www.ini.gob.mx/lenguahablas/len_nahuatl_tancanhuitzslp.ram -Mexicano from Zongolica, Veracruz: http://www.ini.gob.mx/lenguahablas/len_nahuatl_zongolicaver.ram -Mexicanero from the mountains of Nayarit: http://www.ini.gob.mx/lenguahablas/len_mexicanero_nay.ram (b) Jonathan Amith has placed the following recording online, of Inocencio Diaz of Amayaltepec, Guerrero describing the curative powers of a little plant that is related to shepherd's purse: http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~jamith/033Am_Chen.mp3 You can follow the Nahuatl and English renditions as Mr. Diaz speaks, at this address: http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~jamith/TeminixkatsinPage.htm Listen to this as often as you can. Note not only the words themselves, but the way sentences are constructed and how certain things are repeated. Also notice how much Spanish is mixed in with contemporary Nahuatl (incidentally, on Nahuatl.info you claim very few people currently speak Classic Nahuatl. In fact, by definition, nobody does so today. This is a label used to refer to the language as it was spoken in the central valley of Mexico at the time of European contact.) >What we do have is pride and a desire to learn what has been >robbed from us(our language and culture) as the result of colonial >invaders. We're >not out to impress Amerikan academic institutions, rather - we aim to be >able to visit Nahuatl speaking communities - and to communicate with our >people - whether that communication is poorly structured or not - at least we >are trying to do something positive for our beloved culture. (2) Bear with me, but this is where I'll posit why I think you've gravitated toward poor and unreliable materials when in fact there is plenty of excellent material available, even for those with limited ability to pay. First let me give you this encouragement: the history, experience, culture and cumulative achievements of the people of Mesoamerica are sufficiently impressive as they are, without need to embellish them, idealize them and otherwise romanticize them. Let me quote you a passage that you may find interesting. The speaker is Tlacotzin, who was the Cihuacaotl ("she-serpent" or counselor) of Cuauhtemoctzin, the last legitimate Tlatoani (Lord or "eloquent speaker") of the Mexica. The Cihuacoatl was a powerful personage in the Mexica theocracy. The year is 1521, the location is Coyoacan (now one of Mexico City's 'burbs) and the situation is that Cortez has just consummated his military victory and is now concerned to consolidate his power and obtain as much booty as possible. He has brought Cuauhtemoc and his entourage before him and has asked them for an explanation of the political divisions and lordships of the land he has just conquered. We know this from the recounting of the chronicler Fernando Alva Ixtlilx=F3chitl ("De la venida de los espa=F1oles y principios de la ley evang=E9lica.") The she-serpent speaks (my translation): "Oh my prince, hear you god the little that I have to say. I, the mexicatl, had no land, no fields to plant, when I came here amid the tepanecas and the people of Xochimillco, among the people of Aculhuacan and those of Chalco; they did have fields to plant, land did they have. And with arrows and shields I made myself lord of the others, and I appropriated their planting fields and their lands. Just as you have done, who have come with arrows and with shields to appropriate all of our cities. And as you came here from somewhere else, so did I, the mexicatl, I came to appropriate the land with arrows and shields." It is the history of human beings that whenever a more technologically powerful people encounter weaker people, they appropriate their resources and either eliminate or absorb the original peoples. It is what the Mexica did to most of the city-states of Mesoamerica, it is what Zapotecs endeavored to do over 800 years of their imperial history, it is what the powerful Mayan city-states endeavored to do to each other over 1,200 years, what the Spaniards did to the Mexica, what the English and Germans did with the aborigines of North America, what the Romans did to the original Spaniards and ad infinitum going back to what the Cro-Magnon did to the Neanderthals. As you know, the Spaniards were not gods and a small handful of them with blunderbusses, horses and ships certainly did not defeat Mesoamerica's most powerful army. What happened was that Mesoamerican nations that had been invaded and in some cases enslaved by the Mexica allied strategically with the invaders and rose against them. On the Zapotec page, I've a modest gateway to Mesoamerican resources on the web, and this is my summary of the Mexica, who had only been on the scene as a major power for about 200 years at the time of European contact (compare that with approximately 3,000 years of continuous cultural development in Mesoamerica prior to this) and were rightly seen as barbaric interlopers and pretenders by the city-states with greater time-depth and cultural continuity in place: "Aztec" Culture: They were the great economic and military oppressors of Mesoamerica at the time the Spanish arrived. Their tyranny was avenged by the majority of Mesoamerican nations, who allied themselves with the Spaniards against the Mexica. Rarely in history has the destruction and vanquishment of a great civilization by its conquerors been so complete. Even so, their impact on the whole of Mesoamerica was indelible, and in order to understand modern M=E9xico, its language, many of its customs and its placenames, it is necessary to understand the Mexica nation.=20 I applaud your self-awareness and motivation to assess the world of knowledge critically, but I'd like to point out that it is not useful, and in fact it is dangerous, to mythologize about matters of history. One key lesson of history is that some of our collective peaks of evil have come when individual peoples by their lineage or race perceive that they are privileged over others. I may interpret incorrectly, but from your site it seems to me that if not you, many of the people associated with your site are perilously close to the boundary that separates healthy interest in personal heritage and the very attitude you decry above, the certitude of cultural superiority. In fact, I know that a typical response to observations such as these goes along the lines that that is historical propaganda. For example, in your chat session on slavery, you have someone who just knows the Mexica did not have slaves, and the support for the argument is something like "I like my myth, it makes me happy; your facts do not support my myth; therefore, your facts can't be right." And so it is natural that you have gravitated toward the "educational offerings" of people with similar outlooks. I don't mean to lecture, but to make clear that you can count on plenty of support here for your honest interest and diligence in learning Nahuatl, but to the extent that you wish to lard that effort with crusading zeal for an image of the virtuous but victimized Mexica I think you'll find yourself irritated and (at least speaking for myself) you'll tend to frustrate others on here. But now to some more positive vibrations... >I have your analytical dictionary - and I try to read from it >everyday - as well as the other Nahuatl resources that I have. So please, >offer any >helpful resources or references to us, rather than your criticism. I am sure you can appreciate, even though you've criticized "Amerikan" academics above, the work that went into assembling the Analytical Dictionary. The superb quality of this work, which you state is valuable to you, is owing to the fact that its author is a rigorous linguist and academic. You've also benefited from the work of Joe Campbell, as I see you've found some of the trilingual word lists that he and Fritz Schwaller have made available through the Nahuatl Home Page and that you have linked them from Nahuatl.info. In addition, consider the time that Joe took to provide you a detailed list of improvements to increase the accuracy and trustworthiness of the material you're purveying online. You're fortunate to have generated that type of interest and support. And it is on the life work of people like Fran and Joe, toward improving our collective understanding of Nahuatl, that I want to end this note. You'll note that one of the resources listed on the page for "Learning Nahuatl" is the Campbell and Karttunen "Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar" (two volunes). I highly recommend this to you and your students as an accessible, methodical and effective resource for serious learners. Since you've mentioned that you have economic limitations, I offer that if you don't already have a copy of this for your tlahtolcalli, I will be delighted to provide one for you. Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Jan 9 14:51:30 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 08:51:30 -0600 Subject: Response from nahuatl.info Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 03:12:28 -0600 Subject: Re: Response from nahuatl.info From: "Ricardo J. Salvador" To: Nahuat-L Discussion List On Monday, January 6, 2003, at 06:26 PM, wrote: > English is > my first language, and I only learned a handful of Nahuatl words as a > child, of which I found some of the Nahuatl words to be unique to > Nahuatl > speakers in Torreon, Coahuila, Mexico. Perhaps the handful of Nahuatl > words that I learned as a child were all that remained from a now > disconnected past to my family’s Nahuatl speaking ancestors. My > family "looks" like the "Olmecah" and I am not convinced that Olmecah > ever "disappeared." Rather, I think they merely integrated with > incoming > Aztecah and other pre-existing Native peoples. [From what I > understand "Olmecah" is an academically applied (?) Nahuatl word to the > assumed, "mysterious" civilization that once ruled across Anahuac > (MesoAmerica).] No need to speculate about this, at least not in a complete vacuum. There is a growing body of evidence indicating that the people we now call "Olmec" (you're right, a latter day label) spread in a cone, principally along a north-south axis from the Gulf coast across the Isthmus and toward the Pacific coast, and in fact their present-day identity is not such a mystery any longer. It is fairly probable that they were the direct ancestors of today's Mixe-Zoque language family. The evidence is both archaeological and linguistic. A topical example is a recent report by Pohl et al. (6 Dec 2002) Science 298:1984-1986, documenting that remains found at La Venta (Tabasco) and dated to about 650 B. C., bear clear iconography associated with calendar dates and early rebus writing (prior to this the earliest clear sign of writing and calendrical inscriptions was from San José Mogote, Oaxaca, Zapotec country, and dated to around 300 B. C.). These authors have compared various developmental gradients for iconography spanning the area from Oaxaca, through the Isthmus and Mayan country, and have found some interesting patterns. I'll quote you a relevant passage: "Later Mesoamerican groups borrowed heavily from Middle Formative Olmec traditions. Writing and calendrics spread from this central Isthmian region to Western and Eastern Mesoamerica along with new systems of kingship based, in part, on military conquest,. Linguistic studies support the hypothesis of the Isthmian region as the origin of the common ancestor. Archaeological sites with evidence for the Isthmian script have the same geographic distribution as the present-day Mije-Soke language. Other Mesoamerican languages include Mije-Soke loan words for "to write," "paper," "year," "to count," and "Twenty" (denoting the vigesimal numerical system that underlies the 20-day month)." As for your claim of direct Olmec to Mexica transformation, it is very unlikely for many reasons, but the principal one is that you must bear in mind the tremendous time difference that we're talking about here. The peak of Olmec cultural development (at least as measured by construction and use of ceremonial centers) took place prior to the Common Era, at least a millenium before the people who would eventually become the Mexica were even IN Mesoamerica! The Mixe-Zoque have persisted, as you correctly state, but their strategy was to remove to the most recondite parts of Mexico and remain isolated. That is the case to this day. Their domain is the "Nudo del Zempoatepetl," Espinazo del Diablo, Selva Zoque and Bosque Los Chimalapas in today's Oaxaca and Chiapas, very remote and inaccessible spots to this day. They had little contact with the Mexica (they are known to this day in Oaxaca as "the never conquered") primarily because of their isolation, but the Mexica also probably perceived that they were dirt poor and had little to exploit. So you see, it is not only unlikely that the transformation or hybridization you allude took place, but any encounter that would have taken place would have been belligerent. BTW, if you grow up in Mexico it is part and parcel of learning to speak that you're going to know a "handful of Nahuatl words," whether you realize it or not, and it has very little to do with your bloodlines. Interesting that you should mention Nahuatl in Torreón, though. There were in fact scattered Nahuatl-speaking communities throughout northern Mexico and into present-day New Mexico, but they were latter-day historical artifacts of the fact that the Spaniards took along Tlaxcaltecan people on their explorations into unknown territory. As you know, the Tlaxcaltecans were vigorous allies of the Spaniards in the conquest, and in the early postconquest period they were proud to be associated with the new order and were eager to share in the spoils of conquest (in fact, that had been part of the explicit "deal.) There was a fabled march of 400 families from Tlaxcallan who were taken north in the latter 16th century, specifically to colonize the barbaric lands there. But, the Spaniards took them (their "naborías") wherever they went (south, east and west), and usually settled them alongside their main Spanish settlements. In fact, in southern Mexico we know to suspect that is what happened when some place called Analco is set by a Spanish "county seat" in the middle of a non-nahuatl-speaking area ;-). So, though I don't know why you're claiming the above, if by some chance you have ancestors from Torreón who were Nahuatl speakers, they were probably descendants of Tlaxcallans who were strong Spanish allies and intentionally travelled north for explicit purposes of pacification and colonization. If you're interested, read more at: http://www.tlaxcala.gob.mx/portal/turismo/anexo/tradicional/ 400familias2.html Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From nahuatl at nahuatl.info Fri Jan 10 01:22:52 2003 From: nahuatl at nahuatl.info (nahuatl at nahuatl.info) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 17:22:52 -0800 Subject: FW: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030109083948.02c1a7b0@cda.mrs.umn.edu> Message-ID: Professor Salvador, First of all, I send my gracious appreciation and general thankfulness to you for responding to my request for Nahuatl resources with an exceptionally well compiled listing. I will review and attempt to gather those resources as suggested. However, the items listed in the Spanish language will do me no good, since I am not educated in Spanish beyond one year study. I look especially forward to accessing the recordings that you provide. Because my response to your other comments is lengthy, I have written, formatted, and uploaded the following at the link listed below so that I may retain in my response, the formatting not available in my little email program: http://www.zorrah.net/ProfSalvador.htm From salvador at iastate.edu Fri Jan 10 14:07:47 2003 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:07:47 -0600 Subject: Mechanical grammar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Monday, January 6, 2003, at 03:39 PM, r. joe campbell wrote: >> Are you saying it is impractical - if not impossible - to write a >> computer program to translate the spellings from Nahuatl to Nawatl? > > There are two problems with this suggestion: ... > The answer is to do the conversion with a program that will maximize > the correct results -- and then clean up the remainder over a period of > years by hand, at times resorting to morphological knowledge to solve > stubborn cases. This is totally off-topic but this comment reminded me of a recent experience that might amuse you. In Summer of 2000 I took sabbatic in Oaxaca and decided to pursue a little project I'd thought about for some time. I programmed a mechanical conjugator of Yatzachi el Bajo zapotec on the basis of Inez Butler's grammar of the language. I enlisted a couple of my poor cousins in the project and when we finished the little contraption it could handle person, tense and number. The regularity of the language, and Butler's thoroughness and attention to detail, made most of this work go smoothly, and of course I learned more than I could have imagined from the exercise. During the development of this little engine we used a limited range of roots that we knew well. When we got it functioning satisfactually we started to feed it all kinds of roots and we discovered a few constructions that were odd, though correctly generated by rule. We knew they looked fine, and in principle were understandable, but they didn't sound right. So we decided to consult our parents and uncles to get their interpretation, and this is what I thought might interest you. Though we didn't plan it, we consulted our relatives independently and they consistently made comments such as: "Oh yeah, that's the proper way of saying it, but we're sloppy about it now." "Yes, that's the way they say it over in X" (where X is one of the neighboring villages over the ridge). "That's right when you think about it, but I don't know why we don't really use that." It made me think that with enough knowledge, a "meta-informational" layer might be added to such an engine in order to generate dialectical variants. For instance, you might put in a rule to the effect that people in X run the conjugational engine but modify it because they like to speak quickly and so take predictable shortcuts; people in Y modify the engine by abbreviating pluralizing modifiers; and so on, with the end effect that ideally you could devise a single engine but get it to generate proper conjugations for the dialect of your interest :-). Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From michael.boyland at wciu.edu Fri Jan 10 18:21:25 2003 From: michael.boyland at wciu.edu (Michael Boyland) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:21:25 -0800 Subject: Mechanical grammar Message-ID: Dear All, Summer Institute of Linguistics has some pretty good programs for translating between related languages. Michael Boyland "Ricardo J. Salvador" wrote: > On Monday, January 6, 2003, at 03:39 PM, r. joe campbell wrote: > > >> Are you saying it is impractical - if not impossible - to write a > >> computer program to translate the spellings from Nahuatl to Nawatl? > > > > There are two problems with this suggestion: > ... > > The answer is to do the conversion with a program that will maximize > > the correct results -- and then clean up the remainder over a period of > > years by hand, at times resorting to morphological knowledge to solve > > stubborn cases. > > This is totally off-topic but this comment reminded me of a recent > experience that might amuse you. In Summer of 2000 I took sabbatic in > Oaxaca and decided to pursue a little project I'd thought about for > some time. I programmed a mechanical conjugator of Yatzachi el Bajo > zapotec on the basis of Inez Butler's grammar of the language. I > enlisted a couple of my poor cousins in the project and when we > finished the little contraption it could handle person, tense and > number. The regularity of the language, and Butler's thoroughness and > attention to detail, made most of this work go smoothly, and of course > I learned more than I could have imagined from the exercise. > > During the development of this little engine we used a limited range of > roots that we knew well. When we got it functioning satisfactually we > started to feed it all kinds of roots and we discovered a few > constructions that were odd, though correctly generated by rule. We > knew they looked fine, and in principle were understandable, but they > didn't sound right. So we decided to consult our parents and uncles to > get their interpretation, and this is what I thought might interest > you. Though we didn't plan it, we consulted our relatives independently > and they consistently made comments such as: > > "Oh yeah, that's the proper way of saying it, but we're sloppy about it > now." > > "Yes, that's the way they say it over in X" (where X is one of the > neighboring villages over the ridge). > > "That's right when you think about it, but I don't know why we don't > really use that." > > It made me think that with enough knowledge, a "meta-informational" > layer might be added to such an engine in order to generate dialectical > variants. For instance, you might put in a rule to the effect that > people in X run the conjugational engine but modify it because they > like to speak quickly and so take predictable shortcuts; people in Y > modify the engine by abbreviating pluralizing modifiers; and so on, > with the end effect that ideally you could devise a single engine but > get it to generate proper conjugations for the dialect of your interest > :-). > > Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 > 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 > Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu > Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From davius_sanctex at terra.es Fri Jan 10 21:05:29 2003 From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 22:05:29 +0100 Subject: polite farewell forms Message-ID: I have read in your posts some different ways of finishing politely communications in náwatl: (1) Cencah Xochichil 'For ever, the redness of flowers' (???) (2) Citlalin Xochimeh 'The star and the flowers' / 'flowers from/to stars' (???) (3) Citlalyani '[we are] going to the star(s)' (???) All these forms seem very obscure to me, and I am not sure of the explanations I provide to them. Can someone to help me in clarify the meaning and interpretation of these expresions? David Sanchez -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Jan 10 21:38:30 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:38:30 -0500 Subject: polite farewell forms In-Reply-To: <005101c2b8ec$031cb1c0$28e02550@dummy.net> Message-ID: David, I'll let Citlalin and Citlalyani speak for themselves, but I can shed some light on what sometimes follows my own signature. To really appreciate it, you'd have to 1) see me from the back when I'm not facing you and not wearing a coat; 2) see me when I raise the cuff of my jeans. Several years ago, two good friends of mine (one a native speaker of Nahuatl and the other an acquired speaker of Nahuatl) sent me a gift: a beautifully white-stitched belt which said "Cencah Xochichil". Since then, I have been accosted frequently in public by people who want to know what my belt says. When I reply, "Always red-footed". I let their puzzled look last for a few seconds before I pull up the cuff of my jeans and let the glow of my red socks hit them and say, "I haven't worn anything but red socks for more than thirty years." Best regards, Joe (Cencah Xochichil) On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, David Sanchez wrote: > I have read in your posts some different ways of finishing politely > communications in n�watl: > > (1) Cencah Xochichil 'For ever, the redness of flowers' (???) > (2) Citlalin Xochimeh 'The star and the flowers' / 'flowers from/to stars' (???) > (3) Citlalyani '[we are] going to the star(s)' (???) > > All these forms seem very obscure to me, and I am not sure of the > explanations I provide to them. Can someone to help me in clarify the > meaning and interpretation of these expresions? > > David Sanchez > From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Jan 10 23:25:01 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:25:01 -0500 Subject: Mechanical grammar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, Ricardo J. Salvador wrote: > .... and decided to pursue a little project I'd thought about for > some time. I programmed a mechanical conjugator of Yatzachi el Bajo > zapotec on the basis of Inez Butler's grammar of the language. I > enlisted a couple of my poor cousins in the project and when we > finished the little contraption it could handle person, tense and > number. The regularity of the language, and Butler's thoroughness and > attention to detail, made most of this work go smoothly, and of course > I learned more than I could have imagined from the exercise. Ricardo, When I read your account about generating regular Zapotec words, I literally cackled with glee. I thought at first that my comments might not be of general enough interest for the list, but then I realized that they were related to a current theme of the list -- how does one go about beginning to learn Nahuatl? I know I'm taking a chance on my fuzzy memory in trying to recall Arthur Anderson's comment in his introduction to his edition of Clavijero's _Reglas de la lengua mexicana con un vocabulario_ to the effect that most people hadn't learned Nahuatl in organized classes. They learned it by "bootstrapping". Actually, my entry was a bit easier than the one that many people face -- limited learning resources and not enough time to devote to study. I went to Tepoztlan in 1962 with a group of anthropologists led by Ken Hale. We had six weeks with nothing to do except dedicate our waking moments to learning Nahuatl. And we didn't have any reference materials (no dictionary and no grammar) since the point of our activity was to learn how to induce the shape of the language from the data that surrounded us. I can't say that I *learned* the language and when Indiana asked me in the mid-1960s if I would teach a Nahuatl course if the need arose (they were applying for federal money under the NDEA program (National Defense Education Act)), I said yes, on the condition that it be in collaboration with a native speaker. The need didn't arise until 1970 when someone applied for NDEA money to begin his study of Nahuatl. IU told me to find an appropriate speaker during the summer and make arrangements for their spending the 1970-71 academic year in Bloomington. I located a very talented young woman from Hueyapan, Morelos, whom I'll call "Elvira". She spent two semesters here, giving wonderful help in class and tons of information in private sessions with me. When the University didn't see fit to renew her contract for the following year, I was faced with dropping the course or with teaching it by myself. Since I thought the key to reasonable early progress was the aquisition of a clear image of the one dimensional intransitive verb matrix (ni-, ti-, --, ti--h, am--h, --h) and the two dimensional transitive verb matrix (the subject prefixes intersecting with the object prefixes (nech-, mitz-, c/qui-, tech-, amech-, quim-), I needed a large set of exercise items. Was I going to laboriously write all these out in the present, future, and preterit? ...Maybe on purple ditto masters? No, even then, I already believed in the credo of the guys in the computer center: find a way to let the computer give you the most results, while maximizing your own laziness. So I punched a large set of verb stems on those 80 column cards and wrote a program to generate all the possible verb forms in three tenses (maybe I included a fourth one, but my memory is imperfect there). Since the course was about Hueyapan Nahuatl (*not* "classical", partly because it would have been very difficult to get native speech on tape), certain "irregularities" had to be built into the program: 1) /k/ --> [g] intervocally ("I return" 'ninogopa', but "I return you" 'nimitzkopa'); 2) /w/ --> [v] intervocally ("I laugh" 'nivetzka', but "he laughs" 'wetzka'); 3) /w/ --> nothing [after /o/] ("he falls" 'huetzi', but "he fell" 'oetz'). That resulted in more than four thousand practice items and I did the then natural thing: I had the computer spit out each of these verb forms on a crisp, new computer card, so that I could shuffle them and make exercises all through the first semester. (There was no hard disk and no floppies...) Now my cackle has subsided into a chuckle, but I am still enjoying the shared experience, even the situation later when I was speaking to people from Hueyapan in Nahuatl (partly because I became influenced by "classical" Nahuatl) and made a non-Hueyapan verb like 'ninokopa', they removed my embarrassment at the error by saying, "No, no, esta' bien, asi' hablan en Santa Cruz". Joe (Cencah Xochichil) From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Fri Jan 10 23:34:20 2003 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 23:34:20 -0000 Subject: polite farewell forms In-Reply-To: <005101c2b8ec$031cb1c0$28e02550@dummy.net> Message-ID: On 10 Jan 2003, at 22:05, David Sanchez wrote: > I have read in your posts some different ways of finishing politely communications in náwatl: > (1) Cencah Xochichil 'For ever, the redness of flowers' (???) > (2) Citlalin Xochimeh 'The star and the flowers' / 'flowers from/to stars' (???) > (3) Citlalyani '[we are] going to the star(s)' (???) > > All these forms seem very obscure to me, and I am not sure of the explanations I provide to them. Can someone to help me in clarify the meaning and interpretation of these expresions? > David Sanchez The intended meaning of Citlalyani is "star traveller", because I like space stories and I have written some (see http://www.buckrogers.demon.co.uk ). Is such a name appropriate? Should there be a sandhi changing the -ly- into -ll-? From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Jan 11 00:22:19 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:22:19 -0500 Subject: polite farewell forms In-Reply-To: <3E1F587C.27637.3A07B22@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk wrote: > The intended meaning of Citlalyani is "star traveller", because I like > space stories and I have written some (see > http://www.buckrogers.demon.co.uk ). > Is such a name appropriate? > Should there be a sandhi changing the -ly- into -ll-? > Anthony, Here is a list of some words from the Florentine Codex where that sandhi fails to operate: acalyacac. at the prow of a boat; in the prow of a boat. acalyacac, im-. in the prow of their boat. acolyac, i-. its wing-bend tip. acolyacac, i-. its wing-bend tip; on its wing-bend tip; on the tip of its wing-bend; tip of its wing-bend. ahuilyecoznequi, tla-. they wish to perform negligently. ahuilyez. it will be evil. amatlapalyahualtic. round-winged, having round wings. atlapalyo, i-. its leafiness, its leaves. calyahualchihua, ni-. I make a round house. calyahualli. round house. calyahualoa, ni-. I make a house round. calyahualquetza, ni-. I erect a round house. calyollotl, ti-. you are the heart of the home. camopalyayactic. dark brown. capolyollotli. center of a cherry. coxolyecacehuaztli. crested guan feather fan. cuitlapilyac, i-. the point of its tail. cuitlapilyahualtic. having a rounded tail. cuitlaxcolyecti, te-. it soothed one's intestines; it soothed someone's intestines. cuitlaxcolyectia, te-. it soothes one's intestines. cuitlaxcolyectiz, qui-. it will purge him. hualyacan, quin-. he lead them. huelyacahuan, to-. our leaders. ixcamilyayactic. dark brown. ixtlapalyayactic. dark-colored on the surface. macpalyolloco, i-. in the palm of his hand. macpalyollotli. middle of the palm of the hand. macuelyeh. let it be soon. macuilyohual. five nights. nenepilyacahuitiauhca, to-. tip of our tongue. nopalya. nopal patch. omicicuilyacatl. end of rib; tip of rib. palcamilyayactic, tla-. dark brown; dusky brown. palyayactic, tla-. dark red. quelyecoa, tla-. she works nonchalantly. quelyecoani, tla-. one who performs reluctantly. quelyecoznequi, tla-. they wish to perform reluctantly. quetzalyacatl. down feather. queztepolyac, to-. end of the head of our femur. quilyayactic. dark green. tecpilyollo. noble of heart. texipalyamanca, to-. soft part of our lips. tlalyohuaz. it will be destroyed. tlatolyamanqui. soft-spoken. tlatolyaotl. discord. tlauhquecholyecacehuaztli. red spoonbill feather fan. tlazolyaotl. contention. tlilyayactic. dark. tolyahualli. reed rest for an earthen jar. totolyacaquiquintli. snuffling turkey. xalyectia, ni-. I purify sand, I clean sand. yolyamanqui. kind. zacatlaxcalyayactic. dark yellow. Best regards, Joe From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Sat Jan 11 10:36:16 2003 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 10:36:16 -0000 Subject: Nahuatl pronunciation on TV Message-ID: Yesterday on TV here in England I saw a program about the Aztec Empire. I didn't think much of the participants' pronunciation of Aztec place names:- 'x' in [Texcoco] as in "box". `ch' in [Tenochtitlan] as in German. `x' in [Tlaxcala] as `th' in "thing". From tekpatl at comcast.net Sat Jan 11 21:09:19 2003 From: tekpatl at comcast.net (scott) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 14:09:19 -0700 Subject: FW: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? Message-ID: Professor Salvador, I am a student in the beginning stages of learning the Nahuatl language on www.nahuatl.info. I have also assisted Ms. Xochime in the production of some of the media used on her site and course materials; notably, for the purpose of this conversation, the mp3 sound samples she has begun to provide with each lesson. I have read your lengthy posting to Ms. Xochime about her efforts on nahuatl.info, and I'd like to make two comments, and then a general observation. First, regarding your criticism of the pronunciation on the sound samples. It is true that Ms. Xochime is new to the language, as are many of us. However, there are cases where any effort to assist in the learning of a new subject is better than no effort at all. I have scoured the web myself to find actual spoken Nahuatl samples and have found very, very little - and what I have found was so badly recorded as to be totally useless to a beginning speaker. Now, you claim that offering up poor pronunciation will somehow tarnish or handicap the beginner in the learning of language. I wholeheartedly disagree with this. As a speaker of several languages myself, I can tell you that in the course of learning two of them (Gaelic and Navajo [Diné]) my original teachers had such "poor pronunciation", but helped me enough to allow me to pursue these languages further until I found native speakers who then tightened up my skills. Nahuatl is simply not as easy to learn online as Spanish or French, where a plethora of mutlimedia sites already exist to that end. Ms. Xochime, out of the love she has for her heritage and the zeal she has for the tongue, has put forth considerable efforts to at least start us out. Many of us probably won't take it to the end of fluency, but some of us might, thanks in large part to the work of Citlalin Xochime. You state, and Citlalin Xochime cites, that the sound sample she edited (The Day Count) was yours posted some time ago. You need to understand why she even added her voice at all. I am a professional multimedia artist, and can tell you without hesitation that Ms. Xochime did not add her voice because she felt she was any kind of expert, but simply because the quality of your original recording sample is extraordinarily awfull. It was one of the worst attempts of recording a human voice I've ever heard. I must say that, after hearing the paragraphs of criticism you have heaped on for offering sound samples that may "mislead" the beginner, YOU Sir should have taken much greater care in offering such samples to begin with. They were almost unintelligible, and only with the help of Senor Ramos' lessons and the Analytical dictionary did we attempt to clarify what apparently you had no interest in crafting yourself. Watch throwing those stones in glass houses....you know what happens. Secondly, a thought or two about your charge that Ms. Xochime is "mythologizing" history. You treat history as if it's a chemical chain reaction, easily observable in laboratory conditions to establish a scientific truth. Well, it's not. History is not a science - it is an art. To be honest, history is "mythologized" ten minutes after its creation in most cases. Regardless of how many resources you have to back up your opinions on historical matters, you do not have the empirical truth of what exactly occured for any historical event. In short, you are just another person with an opinion. Educated, yes - but opinion nonetheless. Now, an observation. Over all, your voluminous attempted browbeating of Ms. Xochime's work sounded scholarly, but smacked of polite condescension powered by a person with an ego issue themselves. I am all too familiar with those who have feathered their nests warmly in the comfortable recesses of academia. Often, they sit like vultures on the sidelines, springing to attack, criticize and dissemble the work of anyone who dares stick their neck out and actually do something to try and better their world. A sad thing, that. It is eerily reminiscent behavior of the limousine liberal, who feels that any identity movement automatically fosters supremacy and racism; and that any effort or opinion not supported by those in the ivory towers is wrong or misled, by that dubious virtue. Sincerely, Scott Jorgensen From salvador at iastate.edu Sat Jan 11 21:31:20 2003 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 15:31:20 -0600 Subject: Mechanical grammar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey Joe, On Friday, January 10, 2003, at 05:25 PM, r. joe campbell wrote: > I thought at first that my comments might not be of general enough > interest for the list I'm glad you wrote, because that recounting of your first experiences with Nahuatl provided a fascinating glimpse into the workings of the mind of a linguistics whiz ;-). I knew a little bit about that first experience of yours in Tepoztlan from the moving paragraph you contributed to the "In Memoriam" site that MIT put up for Kenneth Hale (the part about his catching on immediately to the "ayotochtli" compound was particularly insightful.) Your message of yesterday also caused me to flash back a few years. I didn't realize when you asked me in Bloomington for the name of my Tepozteco friend that it was because you had great depth of experience with the town (and probably with all its Mexicano speakers.) I've often wondered (and envied) how language specialists such as Hale (and you) can evidently just inhale a language (no pun intended ;-). Conceptually, it is clear that ability must relate to having developed very effective mental schemas for what a language is and the key functions that it must serve. You must immediately focus on the fundamental mechanisms that each language employs to solve its universal functions, and then "layer" the secondary aspects. For example, just your description: > Since I thought the key to reasonable early progress was the > aquisition of a clear image of the one dimensional intransitive verb > matrix (ni-, ti-, --, ti--h, am--h, --h) and the two dimensional > transitive verb matrix (the subject prefixes intersecting with the > object prefixes (nech-, mitz-, c/qui-, tech-, amech-, quim-), provides such an economical and visual metaphor that it is clear you approach a language from a "10,000 meter overhead view," rather than wandering from the side into a vast and dark forest, which as an amateur is what I do. But OF COURSE the number of combinations becomes "two-dimensional" when shifting to the transitive and what an obvious and practical way of generating pragmatic "challenges" for conjugation (for either a learner or an algorithm--although what is a learner but an algorithm with nacatl on it ;-)). So instead of blindly stumbling upon useful expressions for quotidian use over an indeterminate period of time, here is a way of methodically building up skill and compacting time. That must be so clear to linguists that I'm just confirming my idiocy by noting that it took your example for this to dawn on me! (To borrow one of my favorite expressions from Doña Luz: "Ican Ricardo coza titicuintli amo quimatia tlen quichihua." :-/ ) Your casual comment has given me some immediately useful ideas for both programming and learning (am currently working on a forest preservation project in Los Chimalapas and Selva Zoque where it would be very handy not to have to force the local collaborators into Spanish. Many years ago I got a decent start with Lacandón Maya, so I can entertain Maya of the isthmus to distraction, but I'd like to actually communicate ;-). (There are many refugees from Chiapas streaming into the forest, which is part of the issue). > I needed a large set of exercise items. Was I going to laboriously > write all these out in the present, future, and preterit? ...Maybe on > purple ditto masters? ... > So I punched a large set of verb stems on those 80 column cards and > wrote a program to generate all the possible verb forms in three > tenses ... > certain "irregularities" had to be built into the program ... > (There was no hard disk and no floppies...) Ummm.... now that there ARE hard disks, are those algorithms still lying about someplace? What a fabulous learning tool! I see from the IU catalog that Nahuatl is no longer taught, so perhaps you've not had a reason to maintain/update such methods, but they are so obviously suited to the WWW that it would be handy for the Nahuatl Home Page to sport such support for the many learners who are trolling electronically for authoritative didactic material. The moment I type that I want to hasten to say I'm not urging this, the last thing I intend is to distract you from the fascinating integrative Molina project you described the other day, the Florentine work, and the other things you are doing, but if things are just lying around and could readily be adapted... I see your department is currently searching for a computational/natural language processing linguist, and these days folks like that are probably legion and would find it child's play to update and generate such a tool for the web (along the lines of what Jonathan Amith started putting up at Yale a short while back.) Incidentally, the irregularities you described were very interesting, particularly "/k/ --> [g] intervocally." I see I've been unnecessarily rough on some of the folks to whom I've passed along tips for Puebla valley Nahuatl, whereas I should've instead just said "that's alright, that's the way they say it in Hueyapan" (just go across the volcano! :-). > Now my cackle has subsided into a chuckle, but I am still enjoying the > shared experience, even the situation later when I was speaking to > people from Hueyapan in Nahuatl (partly because I became influenced by > "classical" Nahuatl) and made a non-Hueyapan verb like 'ninokopa', > they removed my embarrassment at the error by saying, "No, no, esta' > bien, asi' hablan en Santa Cruz". How utterly and typically gracious. Glad to have stimulated pleasant memories and to have provided some amusement. OK, yotlan. > Joe > (Cencah Xochichil) Your story on this and your word list from yesterday have provided the perfect epigram for me to wear on the back of MY belt: Cuitlapilyahualtic. Hasta moztla. Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From clayton at indiana.edu Sat Jan 11 22:49:09 2003 From: clayton at indiana.edu (mary l. clayton) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 17:49:09 -0500 Subject: FW: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: <7f116f7e9aa2.7e9aa27f116f@icomcast.net> Message-ID: Dear Scott, Let me assure you that you misunderstand. When Joe and I (I'm Joe Campbell's wife, also "into" Nahuatl, though I don't know nearly what he does) first saw Ricardo Salvador's message, we both said "Wow, look at how much time and effort he put into that!" Up to this point, I think many people on Nahuat-l have had the same impression about the exchanges concerning Citlalin Xochime's website that I have had: namely, that this is the internet at its best. People who never would have come upon each other in the real world have a common interest and meet in cyberspace. Those who are eager for knowledge are able to get it from those who are eager to share what they love. (and in many cases, the exchange is mutual. The same people can both teach and learn.) I think that a number of people on Nahuat-l were impressed with the diligence and earnestness exhibited by your teachers and therefore were willing to take the time to offer their help. I was impressed with both the graciousness of Ricardo's message and the graciousness with which Citlalin Xochime received it. No one is "throwing stones"; no one is "browbeating". Professors work for a living and have many demands on their time. They are almost *always* willing to help those who seriously want to learn. But they certainly don't see any sport in criticizing amateurs. Why would we? Over the years, there has been a small number of bothersome people on Nahuat-l who complain about everyone, have political views that become obtrusive, or whatever. For that, we have the Delete key. No time for criticism. Criticism -- and you should understand that this is CONSTRUCTIVE criticism -- is a both a favor and a compliment. It says "I take you seriously. Therefore I am willing to help you." In my opinion, Citlalin Xochime has shown one of the traits of a true scholar (or for that matter, a good basketball player or musician): she can say "ok, I have things to learn and I am anxious to learn them, so I accept your help". You get to decide whether you want to be like her or whether you will simply fall victim to the delete key. Mary On Sat, 11 Jan 2003, scott wrote: > > Professor Salvador, > > > I am a student in the beginning stages of learning the Nahuatl > language on www.nahuatl.info. I have also assisted Ms. Xochime ...... > yourself. Watch throwing those stones in glass houses....you > know what happens. > ..... > Now, an observation. Over all, your voluminous attempted > browbeating of Ms. Xochime's work sounded scholarly, but > smacked of polite condescension powered by a person with an > ego issue themselves. I am all too familiar with those who have > feathered their nests warmly in the comfortable recesses of > academia. Often, they sit like vultures on the sidelines, springing > to attack, criticize and dissemble the work of anyone who dares > stick their neck out and actually do something to try and better their > world. A sad thing, that. It is eerily reminiscent behavior of the > limousine liberal, who feels that any identity movement > automatically fosters supremacy and racism; and that any effort or > opinion not supported by those in the ivory towers is wrong or > misled, by that dubious virtue. > > > Sincerely, > > Scott Jorgensen > > > From salvador at iastate.edu Sat Jan 11 23:42:08 2003 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 17:42:08 -0600 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: <7f116f7e9aa2.7e9aa27f116f@icomcast.net> Message-ID: Hello Scott, Good to make your acquaintance. We clearly share the same objectives: to support learning about Nahuatl language and culture. Someone who merely wished to discount your efforts on the nahuatl.info site could have done so without taking the time to suggest a number ways (and resources) to improve the accuracy and value of the site. In fact, the site speaks volumes about the energy and dedication that you and Citlalin have invested. I assumed the best about your intentions to provide an accurate and reliable site for the learning of Nahuatl (Ometeotl knows we need as much of this as we can get ;-)), which is why I took the time and effort to review and critique (as did others on this list.) > You state, and Citlalin Xochime cites, that the sound sample she > edited (The Day Count) was yours posted some time ago. You need to > understand why she even added her voice at all. I am a professional > multimedia artist, and can tell you without hesitation that Ms. > Xochime did not add her voice because she felt she was any kind of > expert, but simply because the quality of your original recording > sample is extraordinarily awfull. Sorry about that ;-). As a multimedia specialist, you'll probably enjoy the story. The year was probably 1994, the WWW was just getting off the ground and I was fascinated with the facility it provided for sharing multimedia content across the wires. That site was put up impulsively, in a single evening, if I remember correctly. I was just playing with my new toys and the "tech" I used was a Mac IIcx equipped with a microphone. I'm sure you can understand that for that technical reason, and because the main purpose of the page featuring the recordings was to explain the tonalpohualli, not the Nahuatl language, it never occurred to me that anyone would want to use this for Nahuatl learning purposes. I understand, as you say, that Nahuatl audio is scarce online and that is why even such sparse material is valuable. However, I did do a bit of sleuthing recently and forwarded my suggestions for more and better recordings that can now be found on the WWW. Furthermore, with a bit of good will, and a commitment to respect accuracy and legitimacy, these types of merely technical limitations could be amended directly ;-). BTW, the original recording was a huge .au file, no one dreamed of such a thing as MP3 format compression at that time ;-). One last thing about this. You say that the site cites the source of that audio. I must have missed that attribution, and I raise this (don't misinterpret) because my name and e-mail address are easily obtained from the source site and I would have welcomed your contacting me about the quality of my materials for your purposes (plenty of others contact me regularly to complain, I mean comment, about my web materials ;-)). > You treat history as if it's a chemical chain reaction, easily > observable in laboratory conditions to establish a scientific truth. > Well, it's not. History is not a science - it is an art. To be > honest, history is "mythologized" ten minutes after its creation in > most cases It is indisputable that, as a human activity, documentary history is prone to human fallibility. It doesn't follow from this that we can't know anything about the past and that therefore we can make up whatever we please. I won't deal with the aspect of historiography, but if you'll recall, what I attempted to explain was the pitfall of compounding poor knowledge with more poor knowledge. That was factual, not condescendent, critique, as a cursory inspection of the content of the nahuatl.info site will demonstrate. Further, note that this critique was complemented with concrete suggestions for more trustworthy sources and materials. A friend who has been observing the development of this dialogue, and whose privacy I'll respect, wrote recently saying "It has always seemed to me that real stuff--including Nahuatl grammar--is inevitably more amazing than anything we could possibly think up on our own." I couldn't agree more with this and I remit it to your attention with the most earnest good will. All those of us who have interest and respect for the Nahuatl tradition have much to share in the way of mutual support, and I again extend that to you on those terms. However, it must also be said that such positive exchange cannot be facilitated by manifestly spurious ideologies as are expressed by people who at one time can decry present-day colonialism while idealizing past colonialists, or oppose today's war mongers and exalt yesterday's war mongers, and who ultimately dither with the commonplace human penchant for replacing one type of racism with another. This is to say nothing of the astonishing mystical current permeating the discourse of many participants in the nahuatl.info fora to the effect that there are long-lost Aztecs trapped inside their bodies and that their genes or something are now awakening them to long forgotten Nahuatl words they once knew, or to a heritage that they've been fooled into forgetting. I repeat that the truth is without exception more interesting than myth. It is admirable that we should be interested in discovering and fleshing out our personal heritage and an honest effort in this will provide much satisfaction to most of us. As far as young Mexican-Americans are concerned, it is my opinion that the first step is not to act as if the last 6 centuries hadn't happened. Secondly, there is ample demographic, historical and statistical cause to recognize that the majority of present-day Mexicans, to the extent that they share significant native ancestry, descend from any number of aboriginal peoples, and that only a vanishing proportion of them have any claim to specific Aztec ancestry, and thereby it is the height of irony that the former should invest such an enormous sense of pride in identifying with a people who, in the pre-Hispanic era that they idealize, were actually the VICTIMS of the Mexica. There is plenty to discover and celebrate in pre-Hispanic Mesoamerican culure and history (as there is in post-conquest Mexico, I would argue), and that pursuit is the more unfettered and rewarding if it is executed free of stultifying fictions. > Now, an observation. Over all, your voluminous attempted browbeating > of Ms. Xochime's work sounded scholarly, but smacked of polite > condescension powered by a person with an ego issue themselves. I am > all too familiar with those who have feathered their nests warmly in > the comfortable recesses of academia. Often, they sit like vultures > on the sidelines, springing to attack, criticize and dissemble the > work of anyone who dares stick their neck out and actually do > something to try and better their world. A sad thing, that. It is > eerily reminiscent behavior of the limousine liberal, who feels that > any identity movement automatically fosters supremacy and racism; and > that any effort or opinion not supported by those in the ivory towers > is wrong or misled, by that dubious virtue. Scott, I am the first to recognize that lengthy jeremiads online can easily be read as pedantry. Generating more of the same is not likely to ameliorate the matter. This public list devoted to Nahuatl is not the place to joust over the disembodied psychosocial impressions that mere words allow us to form of one another. Due to the values reflected in your paragraph above, I think that in person we'd find much more in common than you might expect. I've written to Citlalin off-list to wish her the best with her efforts, and I extend these same good wishes to you. Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Jan 12 18:30:34 2003 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 12:30:34 -0600 Subject: Critical thinking Message-ID: Scott Jorgensen wrote: >Secondly, a thought or two about your charge that Ms. Xochime is "mythologizing" history. You treat history as if it's a chemical chain reaction, easily observable in laboratory conditions to establish a scientific truth. Well, it's not. History is not a science - it is an art. To be honest, history is "mythologized" ten minutes after its creation in most cases. Regardless of how many resources you have to back up your opinions on historical matters, you do not have the empirical truth of what exactly occured for any historical event. In short, you are just another person with an opinion. Educated, yes - but opinion nonetheless. Scott: I think it's safe to say that most people you meet on academic discussion lists take it for granted that there are certain ground rules in scholarly inquiry; without these the discussions taking place would quickly become pointless. I recommend anthropologist's James Lett's article "A field guide to critical thinking", published in the winter 1990 issue of the _Skeptical inquirer_, for starters. After that astronomer Carl Sagan's chapter "The fine art of baloney detection" in _The demon-haunted world: science as a candle in the dark_ (New York, Random House, 1995) would be a good place to continue. Both say essentially the same thing, Lett in a more concise way, Sagan in more detail. These basic rules con be profitably applied to the study of just about anything, from art, literature, culture and history to medicine and physics. Lett's article is available on-line: http://www.csicop.org/si/9012/critical-thinking.html There are several summaries of Sagan's "baloney detection kit" on-line: http://www.xenu.net/archive/baloney_detection.html http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/baloney.htm http://www.carlsagan.com/revamp/carlsagan/baloney.html http://www.jonathanknowles.com/balony.html Sincerely, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From notoca at hotmail.com Mon Jan 13 04:05:01 2003 From: notoca at hotmail.com (Chi:chi:ltic Coyo:tl) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:05:01 +0800 Subject: Star Traveller Message-ID: Hi I recently came across this word for astronaut: Ci:ci:tlaltepoza:calpanoni. Literally it translates "Stars Metal Boat Passenger". Ci:ci:tlaltin - Stars Tepoztli - Metal A:calli - Boat (sea canoe) Panoni - Boat Passenger CC _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Mon Jan 13 07:44:20 2003 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:44:20 -0000 Subject: Star Traveller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 13 Jan 2003, at 12:05, Chi:chi:ltic Coyo:tl wrote: > I recently came across this word for astronaut: Ci:ci:tlaltepoza:calpanoni. > Literally it translates "Stars Metal Boat Passenger". > Ci:ci:tlaltin - Stars > Tepoztli - Metal > A:calli - Boat (sea canoe) > Panoni - Boat Passenger Or for day-to-day practical use shorten it to Ci:tlalpanoni? Ci:tlalya:ni From michael.boyland at wciu.edu Mon Jan 13 17:47:59 2003 From: michael.boyland at wciu.edu (Michael Boyland) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:47:59 -0800 Subject: Unsubscribe Message-ID: Please take me off the Nahuatl email list. Michael Boyland From notoca at hotmail.com Tue Jan 14 12:18:55 2003 From: notoca at hotmail.com (Chi:chi:ltic Coyo:tl) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 20:18:55 +0800 Subject: Audio Nahuatl Message-ID: Hi I can't vouch for this, however, I thought I'd bring it to the attention of those interested in the possibility of hearing nahuatl spoken. I noticed very recently a book being sold in the zocalo in Mexico City called, "!Ma'titla'tocan Nahualla'tolli! !Hablemos Nahuatl!". It has a series of dialogs in it and is accompanied by two audio cassettes which are the spoken version of the written dialogs. The teacher is Jose Concepcion Flores (Xochime') with the assistance of Esperanza Meneses Minor. The book and the cassette are in Spanish and Nahuatl. That's all the info I have, so I cannot say how good it is. Perhaps someone else has checked out this resource and can comment on it. cc >From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk >To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu >Subject: Re: Star Traveller >Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:44:20 -0000 > >On 13 Jan 2003, at 12:05, Chi:chi:ltic Coyo:tl wrote: > > I recently came across this word for astronaut: >Ci:ci:tlaltepoza:calpanoni. > > Literally it translates "Stars Metal Boat Passenger". > > Ci:ci:tlaltin - Stars > > Tepoztli - Metal > > A:calli - Boat (sea canoe) > > Panoni - Boat Passenger > >Or for day-to-day practical use shorten it to Ci:tlalpanoni? > >Ci:tlalya:ni _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dgomez at abqpubco.com Tue Jan 14 08:24:37 2003 From: dgomez at abqpubco.com (David Gomez) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 08:24:37 +0000 Subject: Maestro Xochime Message-ID: I have the workbook and CD. I think its pretty good, though the pronunciation does not always match up to the Nawatl variant from Morelos whch I am currently studying. I would suggest picking up a copy in the Zocalo. From jmchavar at itesm.mx Tue Jan 14 17:03:01 2003 From: jmchavar at itesm.mx (jmchavar at itesm.mx) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 17:03:01 +0000 Subject: Nahuatl pronunciation on TV In-Reply-To: <3E1FF3A0.380.E7D6D8@localhost> Message-ID: >Yesterday on TV here in England I saw a program about the Aztec >Empire. I didn't think much of the participants' pronunciation of >Aztec place names:- >'x' in [Texcoco] as in "box". >`ch' in [Tenochtitlan] as in German. >`x' in [Tlaxcala] as `th' in "thing". Almost everyone in Mexico City pronounce Tlaxcala, Texcoco, Xochimilco, Mixocac and other words with the "x" as "s". But many nahuatlatos pronuonce "x" as "sh". From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Jan 14 17:09:44 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 11:09:44 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl pronunciation on TV In-Reply-To: <3E1ABF6D00002D58@mailserver2.itesm.mx> Message-ID: At 05:03 PM 1/14/03 +0000, jmchavar at itesm.mx wrote: >Almost everyone in Mexico City pronounce Tlaxcala, Texcoco, Xochimilco, >Mixocac and other words with the "x" as "s" I wouldn't go that far. Xochimilco is still normally pronounced show - chee - MEEL - co at least among the folks I hang out with. Certainly among all the girls, big and little, names Xochitl, the name is usually pronounced with the -sh- not a simple -s- John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From jmchavar at itesm.mx Tue Jan 14 17:56:46 2003 From: jmchavar at itesm.mx (jmchavar at itesm.mx) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 11:56:46 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl pronunciation on TV In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030114110718.02b6c940@cda.mrs.umn.edu> Message-ID: >>Almost everyone in Mexico City pronounce Tlaxcala, Texcoco, Xochimilco, >>Mixocac and other words with the "x" as "s" > >I wouldn't go that far. Xochimilco is still normally pronounced show - >chee - MEEL - co at least among the folks I hang out with. Certainly >among all the girls, big and little, names Xochitl, the name is usually >pronounced with the -sh- not a simple -s- Yes, there are few, very few chilangos that pronounce |shochimilco| and also |shochitl|, I'm one of them; but in normal conversations, radio and television, it's pronounced |sochimilco|, by children, students, workers of all kind of jobs, politicians, teachers, etc. There are places whose name is pronounced "correctly" like "xola" and "mixiuhca". Another interesting thing about actual pronunciation of place names is that the accent has changed its place from the silabe before the last to the last. For example: Atizapan, Cuauhtitlan, Ehecatepec, Chapultepec, etc. From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Tue Jan 14 23:06:12 2003 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 23:06:12 -0000 Subject: Maestro Xochime In-Reply-To: <3E23C945.B6FDCB3B@abqpubco.com> Message-ID: On 14 Jan 2003, at 8:24, David Gomez wrote: > I have the workbook and CD. I think its pretty good, though the > pronunciation does not always match up to the Nawatl variant from > Morelos whch I am currently studying. I would suggest picking up a copy > in the Zocalo. Likely by now, if Nahuatl had defeated Spanish and become the general language of modern Mexico, standard Tenochtitlanian Nahuatl would have replaced many of the regional dialects by now. From nahuatl at nahuatl.info Thu Jan 16 18:12:27 2003 From: nahuatl at nahuatl.info (nahuatl at nahuatl.info) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:12:27 -0800 Subject: On Taking a Nahuatl Name Message-ID: Subject: On Taking a Nahuatl Name Last year I legally changed my name to the Nahuatl name of “Citlalin Xochime.” Recently, it was pointed out to me that my name should be “Citlalxochimeh,” and I wholeheartedly agree with this grammatical “correction factor.” However, I live in the United States where a last or “surname” is required unless you are somebody like “Madonna” or “Sting.” One cannot function in American society without possessing a “last name.” In any event, I could have selected “Citlalxochimeh” as both a “first” and “last” name, however this seemed just plain silly to me, hence my selection for the Nahuatl name of “Citlalin Xochime.” As far as dropping the “h” near the end of “xochimeh,” well, that is just the result of the little rebel inside of me that wishes not to conform completely to “the book.” Well, I do not wish to appear to be an ego miser here, but I did make the local news about taking on a Nahuatl name (if anyone is interested): http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,405021521,00.html Also, if anyone else is interested in taking on a Nahuatl name, I encourage you to do so. I don’t like being the only one (female) with a Nahuatl name, and I’ve gone to great lengths to produce and to make available online a “free” name change kit. The kit includes all documents (a $30) value to file a “Name Change” petition in the United States. One may access my Name Change kit at: http://www.zorrah.net/NameChange.htm My regards, Citlalin Xochime http://www.nahuatl.info From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Thu Jan 16 19:32:52 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:32:52 -0600 Subject: Newbie questions. Message-ID: I want to ask experts and non experts here what their thoughts are about what dialect of nahuatl one should learn given that: -I'm mexican, spanish is my first language (for 30 years) -I'm a fluent english speaker. (7 years) -I just want to learn for no reason, so i don't really have a preference for a dialect in particular. I would like to learn Classical Nahuatl, but, is that possible? (Is there enough material to learn and carry on a conversation with anotherone who learns the same?) If one learns a dialect, which would be the closest to clasical nahuatl? Which one would be the one spoken by more people? If one learns classical or any other dialect of nahuatl, would it be possible to comunicate with someone that speaks another dialect? Thankyou very much in advance. From salvador at iastate.edu Thu Jan 16 21:08:48 2003 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 15:08:48 -0600 Subject: Newbie questions. In-Reply-To: <200301161332.52173.awallace@rwsoft-online.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 01:32 PM, Alexander Wallace wrote: > I would like to learn Classical Nahuatl, but, is that possible? (Is > there > enough material to learn and carry on a conversation with anotherone > who > learns the same?) > > If one learns a dialect, which would be the closest to clasical > nahuatl? Which > one would be the one spoken by more people? > > If one learns classical or any other dialect of nahuatl, would it be > possible > to comunicate with someone that speaks another dialect? Hello Alexander, Sure you can learn classical Nahuatl. There are plenty of materials and scholarship to support that learning. Learning to SPEAK classical Nahuatl will be a more equivocal exercise, since we have no living speakers to either facilitate your learning or provide a standard for pronunciation, but your fundamental question is whether learning the classical language would help you understand present-day speakers. I would say that as long as you're not learning any specific dialect, then learning classical Nahuatl would certainly give you the foundation needed to quickly acquire a number of contemporary dialects. Since you know Spanish, one source for classical Nahuatl grammar and several texts that you may find useful is Llave del Nahuatl, by Angel Maria Garibay Kintana. It is available from Porrúa Hnos. for $60 pesos or $6.38 USD plus shipping. See: http://www.porrua.com/general/libros/Det_Libro.asp?CodBar=9789700728759 One way of thinking about what you propose is to apply the same question to English. Go back 500 years and you're in Elizabethan times. You're asking the equivalent of whether you can learn Elizabethan English and whether other English speakers would be able to understand you. Since you seem to be interested in this primarily for the exercise, the following may not be relevant to you, but I think the best setting for learning a language is via immersion among its speakers. That is no shattering insight, but if you are writing from central Mexico you would certainly have the opportunity of doing that in any number of places. Some time back another subscriber asked questions in a similar vein and I quote that discussion below. Some of the content is a bit dated, but it addresses much of what you've asked. > From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) > Date: Mon Sep 30, 1996 11:01:50 AM US/Central > To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > Subject: Re: ?nahuatl's alleged musical qualities > > jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (Jacob Baltuch) writes: > >> 1. are there any _tapes_ for nawatl? it's easy to come up with lots of >> written materials but so far i haven't seen any audio, which to me >> is the most important when learning a foreign language (esp. when >> beginning to learn one) > > There are no systematic recordings of Nahuatl that are available > through commercial channels, as far as I'm aware. Scholars and > linguists have their own recordings, made for specific purposes, > though in most of their cases it would be troublesome to make these > generally available, for both logistic and ethical reasons. > >> 2. since there are supposedly 16 dialects of nahuatl (17 if you >> include >> pipil but i don't know if that is considered a nahuatl dialect) > > Yes, most decidedly Pipil is a Nahuatl dialect. > >> a) how mutually intelligible are they? > > I'm sure the linguistics group has its measures of "distance" among > the dialects, but my limited, lay experience with the dialects of > central Mexico is that while there are many variants that are "strong" > dialects (easily distinguished on clearly defined bases) they are all > still mutually intelligible (i.e., none has become "Dutch" yet, ;-) ). > One reason for this is, for good or ill,the strong syncretism with > Spanish, which is often not the "bridge" of last resort, but of first > resort when folks from different communities speak with one another. > So, when you have need to express something new, or something old in a > novel way, you don't necessarily innovate within Nahuatl, but simply > borrow from Spanish. > >> b) which one are you supposed to take as your model if you >> study >> nahuatl as a foreign language and why? > > THAT is the question, exactly. One cannot possibly answer this on an > objective basis. In fact what IS most often studied by outsiders > happens to be central Mexican, either from Morelos or Mexico state, > and the reasons are that due to certain historical community features, > fanned by interactions with scholars, the Nahuatl-speaking identity of > folks in some of these communities is unusually strong (e.g., > Tepoztlan, Milpa Alta, etc.), and therefore favorable for structured > courses of learning. But the reality is, plain and simple, there are > MANY versions of Nahuatl.What you learn will be decided by both your > intended purpose and your access to learning environment/tools. > >> c) are there attempts at standardisation within the nahuatl >> speaking >> community, e.g. for writing or inter-dialect communication? > > None within the Nahuatl-speaking community, and the reasons are > complex, but the primary reason is that there is no > "pan-Nahuatl-speaking" identity to speak of in Mexico. The very notion > is curious if you understand Mexico's unusual culture. You accomplish > quite a bit, as an outsider, to just pry from a native speaker that > she or he does in fact speak "dialecto," as it is something that in > majority culture is not prized, and can instead be used to brand > someone as backward. Much more to be said on this, but won't. > >> 3. is it true "nahuatl" means in nahuatl "harmonious, musical, having >> a pleasant sound"? >> is it true nahuatl speakers say of the sound of nahuatl that it is >> like "light birds flying off"? > > The part about "sonorous sound" I have READ, but never actually heard > from a native speaker. The metaphor I've seen in print is "sonorous, > as a babbling brook." You'd have quite a discussion on your hands to > inform many native speakers that they speak Nahuatl. In some areas > (such as the Morelos area alluded above) this wouldn't be so, but then > owing to acculturation. Most native speakers refer to their language > as "dialect," or as "Mexicano." > >> is it true nahuatl speakers, even uneducated and illiterate ones, >> all display an uncommon pride in their language and especially what >> they consider are its musical qualities? > > Go to Tepoztlan and you will find many folks who display "uncommon > pride in their langauge," but with most other speakers this would not > be the case. > >> 4. is there a good reference on the use of nahuatl in mexico today >> and the >> prospects for the future? > > Your question assumes a preocupation with the state of the language, > ergo the state and collective identity of its speakers, and a concern > for the preservation of the speakers, their culture and their > language. Nothing resembling this exists in Mexico. One can make a > very straight-faced argument that the only reason any native language > survives to this day in Mexico is due to the economic neglect and > marginalization of its speakers by the main stream culture. There are > some exceptions, historically based, such as the Zapotecs of > Tehuantepec, Oaxaca, and the Mayans of Yucatan state, where native > speakers have preserved their language and identity while > simultaneously integrating with the mainstream culture, but in the > majority of instances to find monolinguals, or true bilinguals in most > native languages, you must go to the hinterlands and find people who > have been isolated, exploited and forgotten, and that is why they > continue to preserve what they do of their ancestral cultural legacy. > This being so, there are only occasional Quixotic efforts, usually led > by middle-classed urbanites to somehow revive Nahuatl. > > These are my personal impressions, of course. The learned ought really > to complement or correct these views as they see fit. The specialists > on this list are in my estimation the best folks from whom to get a > reliable assessment of the issues you raise in this question. > >> 5. what little classical nahuatl poetry i've read gives me the >> feeling of >> having been originally meant to be sung. (i could go into a lengthy >> justification of this, but to keep it brief, there are certain >> repetitions, >> certain "exclamatory words" which seem to point to a musical >> delivery) >> if this is correct, do we have any idea what that music sounded >> like? >> (not specific melodies of specific poems, which are no doubt lost, >> but >> in a general way, what the music of aztec lyrical poetry sounded >> like) > > As far as we can now understand, your perception is very accurate, as > even in name poetry and song were strongly identified with one > another. Good reading on this is Leon-Portilla's recently revised > "Fifteen Poets of the Aztec World," Univ. of Oklahoma Press (a 1992 > update and translation of classic work long available in Spanish). Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Jan 16 21:44:11 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 16:44:11 -0500 Subject: Newbie questions. In-Reply-To: <200301161332.52173.awallace@rwsoft-online.com> Message-ID: Alejandrohtzin, I thought that I'd pass along to you my "parecer" -- and some of my prejudices. On what I think is your main point, there will be a difference of opinion if people take your question in a not totally literal way. First, everyone would agree on the fact that "classical" Nahuatl is no longer spoken, in the same sense that 16th century Mexican Spanish, 12th century Iberian Spanish, and 18th century American English are no longer spoken. Second, is modern Nahuatl very much like "classical" Nahuatl? Since most towns differ in their speech from other towns, the answer is gray, rather than black and white. A relatively complete answer on this would require some commentary from many silent members of the list, but on the basis on my contact with several dialects, there are some that are amazingly (for me) close to "classical" and others that differ considerably. Tepoztla'n, Morelos (back in the 60s) seemed fairly close to "classical", but the "line" of speaker/non-speaker has moved since then. Now the youngest Nahuatl speaker that I know of there is 70 and most people who really speak it are considerably older than him. Another close match is San Miguel Canoa, Puebla. Dialects that differ greatly from "classical" are, among others, Po'maro, Michoacan (one characteristic: has /l/ for /tl/), and San Agusti'n Oapan, Guerrero. The point that I am afraid that some people might disagree with is how worthwhile your study of "classical" would be for the purpose of communicating with people who speak modern dialects. I believe that studying "classical" Nahuatl is a valuable investment for various reasons. 1. The materials available to you in "classical" Nahuatl are extensive. In vocabulary, you have Molina's and Karttunen's dictionaries (not joint ones -- each did his or her own); in grammar, you have Carochi and Andrews; and for practice in reading text, you have (just as a starting point) Sahagun's 12 volume commentary done in the 16th century and translated into English facing by Dibble and Anderson in the 20th. In contrast, there is no modern dialect that offers you even a small percentage of this coverage. (((My wife, reading over my shoulder, insists that I add: "As an intro to "classical", you also have Campbell and Karttunen, _Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar." -- which was intended for *real* beginners.))) 2. "Help" that you derive in going from one dialect to another: when you go from the study of "classical" to any modern dialect, you will feel the constant support of familiar vocabulary and derivational suffixes. Of course, there are some differences, since languages do change, but the degree of conservatism is comforting. On the other hand, if you started with a "further-out" modern dialect, going to another dialect would present more difficulties. I think of it with the "hub and spoke" metaphor: if you start at the hub, each spoke is immediately related to what you know, but if you start "way out there" on any arbitrary spoke, who knows how much that spoke is going to contribute your learning the next one? May your ohtli be chipahuac and not alactic, Joe From karttu at nantucket.net Thu Jan 16 21:32:31 2003 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 16:32:31 -0500 Subject: Another suggestion Message-ID: There is a very good, readable book by Jane and Kenneth Hill titled "Speaking Mexicano" that addresses some of the questions raised about language attitude, Nahuatl identity, etc. It may be out of print, but it's certainly available through interlibrary loan, and I heartily recommend it. From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at Fri Jan 17 00:16:16 2003 From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 01:16:16 +0100 Subject: Another suggestion Message-ID: there is a spanish translation available: "hablando mexicano" (ciesas: méxico, 1999) best Frances Karttunen schrieb: > There is a very good, readable book by Jane and Kenneth Hill titled > "Speaking Mexicano" that addresses some of the questions raised about > language attitude, Nahuatl identity, etc. > > It may be out of print, but it's certainly available through interlibrary > loan, and I heartily recommend it. -- Juergen Stowasser Burggasse 114/2/8 A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a Austria tel: (0043-1)-99 03 673 mobil: 0676/ 905 89 27 v 0676/ 398 66 79 fax: (0043-1)-99 03 673 http://www.univie.ac.at/meso From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Jan 16 22:48:41 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 16:48:41 -0600 Subject: Newbie questions. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 04:44 PM 1/16/03 -0500, r. joe campbell wrote: >"As an intro to "classical", you also have Campbell >and Karttunen, _Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar." -- which was >intended for *real* beginners.))) This is available through my office. See the Nahuatl web site: http://www.mrs.umn.edu/academic/history/Nahuatl/hotlinks.htm John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Fri Jan 17 00:21:04 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 18:21:04 -0600 Subject: Newbie questions. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I want to thank you here and all others (publicly since i may have done it privately not realizing it) that responded to my questios, and in advance to those who will. You form a great list and I received very good advice from all of you. Everybody's insight in the matter seems pretty homogeneous with a few variants here and there, like. And you pretty much told me what I wanted to hear :) Thanks a lot again! I'm sure I'll be asking y'all a lot of questions! Tlazocamatzin On Thursday 16 January 2003 15:44, r. joe campbell wrote: > Alejandrohtzin, > > I thought that I'd pass along to you my "parecer" -- and some of my > prejudices. On what I think is your main point, there will be a > difference of opinion if people take your question in a not totally > literal way. > > First, everyone would agree on the fact that "classical" Nahuatl is no > longer spoken, in the same sense that 16th century Mexican Spanish, 12th > century Iberian Spanish, and 18th century American English are no longer > spoken. > > Second, is modern Nahuatl very much like "classical" Nahuatl? Since > most towns differ in their speech from other towns, the answer is gray, > rather than black and white. A relatively complete answer on this would > require some commentary from many silent members of the list, but on the > basis on my contact with several dialects, there are some that are > amazingly (for me) close to "classical" and others that differ > considerably. > Tepoztla'n, Morelos (back in the 60s) seemed fairly close to > "classical", but the "line" of speaker/non-speaker has moved since then. > Now the youngest Nahuatl speaker that I know of there is 70 and most > people who really speak it are considerably older than him. Another close > match is San Miguel Canoa, Puebla. > Dialects that differ greatly from "classical" are, among others, > Po'maro, Michoacan (one characteristic: has /l/ for /tl/), and San > Agusti'n Oapan, Guerrero. > > The point that I am afraid that some people might disagree with is how > worthwhile your study of "classical" would be for the purpose of > communicating with people who speak modern dialects. I believe that > studying "classical" Nahuatl is a valuable investment for various reasons. > > 1. The materials available to you in "classical" Nahuatl are extensive. > In vocabulary, you have Molina's and Karttunen's dictionaries (not joint > ones -- each did his or her own); in grammar, you have Carochi and > Andrews; and for practice in reading text, you have (just as a starting > point) Sahagun's 12 volume commentary done in the 16th century and > translated into English facing by Dibble and Anderson in the 20th. > In contrast, there is no modern dialect that offers you even a small > percentage of this coverage. (((My wife, reading over my shoulder, > insists that I add: "As an intro to "classical", you also have Campbell > and Karttunen, _Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar." -- which was > intended for *real* beginners.))) > > 2. "Help" that you derive in going from one dialect to another: when you > go from the study of "classical" to any modern dialect, you will feel the > constant support of familiar vocabulary and derivational suffixes. Of > course, there are some differences, since languages do change, but the > degree of conservatism is comforting. On the other hand, if you started > with a "further-out" modern dialect, going to another dialect would > present more difficulties. I think of it with the "hub and spoke" > metaphor: if you start at the hub, each spoke is immediately related to > what you know, but if you start "way out there" on any arbitrary spoke, > who knows how much that spoke is going to contribute your learning the > next one? > > May your ohtli be chipahuac and not alactic, > > Joe From nahuatl at nahuatl.info Fri Jan 17 05:29:33 2003 From: nahuatl at nahuatl.info (nahuatl at nahuatl.info) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:29:33 -0800 Subject: Does chancles = slippers? Message-ID: Does chancles = slippers? The word that I learned as a child that translates as "slippers" was spoken in our home as "chancles." Is it possible that this word originates from Nahuatl chantli (home) + cactli (shoe). I also see in Kartunnen's dictionary that "cacles" has the meaning of "shoe." Is the word (chan/cles) the result of combining (chan/tli) plus (ca/cles)? I know "cactli" would not be separated as such: (ca/ctli) However, could Spanish influence result in cac/tli changing to ca/cles? And as a result, the word "chancles" would then really mean "home shoes," thus expressed to have the same meaning as "slippers"? Anyone? citlalin xochime Now I must learn like a child what it means to be a woven cloth of Mexihcayotl. From salvador at iastate.edu Fri Jan 17 14:21:04 2003 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:21:04 -0600 Subject: Does chancles = slippers? In-Reply-To: <33493.12.254.209.145.1042781373.squirrel@www.nahuatl.info> Message-ID: On Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 11:29 PM, wrote: > Does chancles = slippers? To a Spanish speaker, chanclas refers to the general class of "non-formal" footwear. It could apply to comfy houseshoes I suppose, but it usually refers to sandals. > The word that I learned as a child that translates as "slippers" was > spoken > in our home as "chancles." In Mexico it is "chanclas." BTW, in central Mexico you can also tell someone you're coming as soon as you get your "cacles" on, and be understood. Though "cacles" in Nahuatl refers to footwear in general, when used by Spanish speakers it usually means a proper shoe. > Is it possible that this word originates from Nahuatl chantli (home) + > cactli (shoe) I'd say it isn't likely for a number of reasons: (1) It is no problem to say "house shoe" literally in Nahuatl, if that is what you want to say: calcactli (calcacmeh). (2) Compounds are usually formed with the roots of nouns, so a putative [chan + tli] + [ cac + tli] = chan-(c)-(l)-a just wouldn't work grammatically (the parentheses denote the putative remnants of a root.) To put it another way, a monolingual speaker of Nahuatl wouldn't know what to make of the last half of your word (or they might judge that you're either a learner, a poor speaker or from a different village, and that you really mean a housing subdivision (chantla), but then they'd wonder what that has to do with your feet ;-)). (3) A native speaker of Nahuatl would be very clear about the distinction between her home (chantli) and her house (calli). Your putative compound would map to "home shoes," which is actually not that awkward (chancacmeh), but it is unlikely. (4) The Royal Academy of the Spanish Language zealously tracks "Americanisms," and their etymology for "chanclas" goes in a different direction. They trace it through "chanca" to late Latin "zanca," and that in turn to ancient Persian "zanga" (see www.rae.es). Just as a matter of interest, the meaning of this word is "leg," and it is still used in that way in modern Spanish.The connection to sandals may have been the Persian style of lacing sandals all the way up your lower leg. One last quick comment about this. "CL" to "TL" would be a major switch for a native Nahuatl speaker. You must remember that "TL" is a key sound, a frequent letter if you will, in Nahuatl. "CL" to a "classic" speaker would have been very strange. To a native speaker it would stand out as much as a german pronouncing an umlaut would stand out to you. This isn't to say that this switch isn't possible in a contemporary dialect. There is a good discussion here about the changes in modern dialects and the myriad forces and influences that can shape them, but that is not what you asked about and there are plenty of people who know way more about that. Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3398 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Jan 17 14:34:57 2003 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:34:57 -0600 Subject: Does chancles = slippers? Message-ID: Citlalin: The usual form is "chanclas" or "chancletas". The 21st edition of the Real Academia's Diccionario de la Lengua Española derives the latter from the former, and the former from "chanca", which they say is onomatopoeic and has the same meaning. However Guido G'omez de Silva, in his Breve Diccionario Etimol'ogico de la Lengua Española, suspects that the L in "chancla" is due to influence from another Spanish word for sandal, "choclo", and that "chanca" derives from "zanca", meaning "long legs", among other things (by the way, mosquitoes in central Mexico are called "zancudos", "long-legged ones"). Sebasti'an de Covarrubias (sic) Orozco, in his 1611 Tesoro de la Lengua Castellana o Española, derives "chancletas" from "zanco": "y dij'eronse chancletas, quasi zancletas, de zanco, porque llevamos descubierto el tal'on, que se llama zanco" ("and they were called 'chancletas', almost 'zancletas', from 'zanco', because we have our heel, called 'zanco', uncovered.") (I've modernized Covarrubias' spelling.) Covarrubias derives "zanco" from an Arab word for "foot" or "leg"; G'omez has it coming from Indo-European through Persia; the Real Academia says it's onomatopoeia, from "zanc", supposedly a stepping sound. So it looks like you can chalk this one up to your Spanish linguistic heritage. Peace, David P.S. To be politically correct (which I'm often not, being an advocate for freedom of expression), "Spanish" should be called "Castilian", since there are four major Spanish languages: Basque, Castilian, Catalan and Galician; singling out one as *the* Spanish language is unfair to the other linguistic groups, reflecting centuries of internal colonialism and bringing up bad memories of the linguistically repressive policies of the Franco regime. When speaking Castilian I can get away with saying "castellano", but I've given up in English, because almost nobody understands me when I say "Castilian". I tried "Castilian Spanish" for a while, but that almost always produced questions like "What do you mean by *Castilian* Spanish?" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brettb at rajah.com Fri Jan 17 18:09:34 2003 From: brettb at rajah.com (Brett Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:09:34 -0800 Subject: Naive Questions Message-ID: How useful would a study of Nahuatl be to someone who is also interested in learning the Hopi Language? I am camped out on my land down in Holbrook near the Hopi and have family down in Aztec land... my cousins are fluent in Navajo, but I want to learn Hopi/Aztec for both archaeological and personal reasons... Is the book listed below still available from the same source (University of Minnesota)? My primary interest is in the Hisat'sinom ("Anasazi", an appellation I prefer not to use) and links between 'Arizuma' and the old Aztec. I may be half crazy, but hey, I'm also planning on living in a pithouse. ;*) Campbell, Joe R. and Frances Karttunen, Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar. Vol. I: Text and Exercises; vol. II: Vocabulary and Key (Missoula: University of Montana, 1997) 336p. & 272p. $40.00 for both volumes, shipping included Dr. J. F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean University of Minnesota, Morris Morris, MN 56267 Thanks for humoring me... Brett BaldEagle From ECOLING at aol.com Sat Jan 18 10:07:35 2003 From: ECOLING at aol.com (Lloyd Anderson) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 05:07:35 EST Subject: !! Nahua phonetic writing workshop Message-ID: Announcing a Nahua Phonetic Writing Workshop for Epigraphers We are pleased to announce a hands-on workshop in this exciting new field, led by its pioneers. The workshop will be held all day Saturday, 21 June, 20003, in Washington, D.C. This is the day before the 5th World Archaeology Congress, which some may wish to attend part of. The workshop will be led by Alfonso Lacadena, Universidad Complutense de Madrid, Spain, and Søren Wichman, Dept. of General and Applied Linguistics, University of Copenhagen, Denmark with the assistance of Marc Zender, Dept. of Archaeology, Univ. of Calgary, Alberta, Canada The workshop registration is $85. Necessary materials will be provided. ***************************************************** Nahua written records vary in their degree of phonetic writing, some showing little, some like the Codex Santa María Asunción showing much phoneticism. As with Maya writing, this does not mean that there are different systems, but only that there were different scribal traditions. Taking this phonetic writing at its face value, it is possible to lay foundations of a new field of historical studies in Nahua writing. We can even to notice the reflections in written materials of differences between Eastern and Western Nahua dialects, as the name of the ruler spelled Tezoc rather than Tizoc. Alfonso Lacadena and Søren Wichman are pioneers in laying these new foundations. They are assisted in this workshop by Marc Zender, an outstanding expert in Mayan glyphic writing. The workshop will be similar to Mayan hieroglyphic workshops. Participants will be assisted to make discoveries themselves and to learn methods of analysis, depending on the specifics of the written documents. Knowledge of the Nahua language is of course helpful, but is not required. Knowledge of linguistics is not required. Participants who are interested may ask about materials for learning basic Nahua. ***************************************************** Those interested in participating should reply as soon as possible, sending a check for $85 to reserve a place. Checks should be made out to Ecological Linguistics, and put "Nahua writing workshop" on the "for" line. The exact location is to be announced, but will be accessible via the Washington DC metro (subway). Information on reasonable lodgings can also be provided to those who wish it. Nahua Phonetic Writing Workshop c/o Lloyd Anderson Ecological Linguistics PO Box 15156 Washington, DC 20003 Inquiries can also be made by email or by phone (202) 547-7678. Those interested in attending the first two days of the 5th World Archaeological Congress, 22 and 23 June, 2003, where there are a number of sessions on ancient writing and on relations between oral and written traditions and archaeology, should also make that interest known immediately. Additional information will be available for those attending both the Nahua Writing workshop and the first two days of the WAC5 Congress. I am greatly looking forward to a fun time learning how the Aztecs and their kin wrote using puzzling and sometimes funny rebus puns, one glyph to mean something with a similar pronunciation but different meaning! Knowing even a little bit about this newly understood writing system may give us quite a different perspective on Maya or Mixtec writing or other parts of the enormous cultural traditions of Mesoamerica, one of the great civilizations of the world. Join us! From juanjose1 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 19 16:50:59 2003 From: juanjose1 at hotmail.com (Juan Jose) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 10:50:59 -0600 Subject: reforma.com Message-ID: reforma.com --- formato de impresión14 de ene. 2003 Manuel J. Jáuregui México, pieza clave Permítanos hoy, estimado lector, hacer una pausa respecto a los trillados temas políticos y de similar índole para platicarles de algo que nos fascina -y esperamos a ustedes también-, que es la historia. Nuestro México, sin quererlo y -lo que es más simpático aún- sin saberlo siquiera, está jugando un papel protagónico clave en una controversia que apenas inicia y que, para los historiadores y el público en general, promete ser de gran envergadura y de enormes implicaciones, pues hará que se tiren a la basura los libros de texto de primaria en todo el mundo occidental. Tiene que ver nuestro tema, y mucho, con una tumba descubierta en Teotihuacán en 1911 por el antropólogo William Niven, concretamente con lo que el estadounidense encontró ahí: los restos de un hombre precolombino de apenas un metro y medio de estatura, de rasgos orientales y supuestamente vestido y ornamentado a la usanza mongol. Este descubrimiento encaja con la publicación reciente de un libro, producto de la investigación que, por más de 10 años, efectuó el británico ex comandante de submarino, Gavin Menzies, y que ha desatado una polémica enorme en los círculos literatos en todo el mundo. La editorial William Morrow ha puesto a la venta ya, de ahí el escándalo, en forma de libro el resultado de la investigación efectuada por este hombre menudo. El título de la obra dice por sí sola el por qué de esta enorme polvareda: "1421: El Año en que China Descubrió el Mundo", se titula. Y, en efecto, Menzies se propone comprobar que existe evidencia sólida para afirmar que fueron los chinos, y no Cristóbal Colón, quienes descubrieron el continente americano, además de la Antártica y Australia. Originalmente, Menzies pretendía otra cosa: investigar los orígenes históricos de la Gran Muralla y de la Ciudad Sagrada. Mientras esto hacía, se topó con un mapa marino portugués que databa de 1424, en el cual venían dibujadas las islas del Caribe. Alguien, concluyó Menzies, conoció el Occidente 70 años antes que Colón. Pero, ¿quién? Mayores indagaciones llevaron a Menzies a conocer y estudiar los escritos detallados que dejó un navegante y comerciante veneciano, Niccolo da Conti quien, en forma fortuita, coincidió en un puerto comercial de la India con una armada expedicionaria de Naos, enviada por el emperador chino Zhu Di a conocer, mapear y traerle tributo de las tierras más allá del horizonte. Este hecho coincide con la fecha de terminación tanto de la Gran Muralla como de la Ciudad Prohibida (1421). Ante esta evidencia, Menzies decidió dejar a un lado su proyecto original y emprender la investigación que lo llevaría a comprobar -según él- que los chinos se le adelantaron a los europeos cuando menos 70 años en el descubrimiento de América. Salta a la vista que, para poder acumular mayores pruebas en apoyo de su tesis, Menzies debe de intentar comprobar, de preferencia con evidencia material, que los chinos estuvieron presentes en América antes que la colonización europea. Es en este sentido en el que nuestro México adquiere vital importancia. No existe mayor probabilidad de encontrar pruebas tangibles de esta presencia china en nuestro continente que a través de los restos que nos dejaron las civilizaciones precolombinas. Con el nuevo enfoque que obliga la tesis del británico Menzies, se torna necesario reexaminar mucha de nuestra arqueología a la luz de esta posibilidad, por más extraña que nos parezca. Según el autor, ya existen pruebas fehacientes de un contacto China-Brasil que es anterior a 1511, por lo que no es descabellado pensar que en nuestro récord antropológico pudieran existir elementos de apoyo a su tesis. Entre otros, aquellos que se pudieran derivar de los estudios de DNA tanto en humanos como en algunas especies animales y vegetales. Según Menzies, es relativamente fácil demostrar -mientras se cuente con los especímenes adecuados-, mediante el carbono 14 y estudios comparativos de DNA, que cosas como el arroz, algunas especies avícolas (como los pollos) y piedras preciosas como el jade, tienen origen en China, y no son nativos de América. Una traducción comprensiva al inglés de los recuentos de los primeros exploradores europeos que llegaron al Nuevo Mundo, afirma Menzies, apoyan la tesis de una presencia china en América previa a la europea. Es casi seguro que la comprobación o ridiculización de la hipótesis controversial de Menzies se venga dando en nuestro territorio, pues en ningún otro país del continente se cuenta con un récord tan antiguo y tan completo, producto de la avanzada civilización presente aquí y que necesariamente debió interactuar con los emisarios del emperador chino Zhu Di, si es que acaso éstos llegaron a nuestras tierras antes que la Pinta, la Niña y la Santa María. Por lo mismo, no es difícil adelantar que nuestros científicos, nuestros excelsos antropólogos, mismos que destacan a nivel mundial, serán los encargados de protagonizar esta batalla que librará el entendimiento humano. Dependerá del conocimiento y la información que ellos arrimen a la polémica el que futuras generaciones aprendan una versión diferente respecto al descubrimiento de América que la que aprendieron sus padres. Habrá que estar pendientes de esta vital aportación mexicana al entendimiento humano. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: h_impresión.gif Type: image/gif Size: 2203 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: acento_edit.gif Type: image/gif Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeremybaraquin at hotmail.com Sun Jan 19 21:26:14 2003 From: jeremybaraquin at hotmail.com (jeremy baraquin) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 15:26:14 -0600 Subject: unsuscribe from nahuat-l Message-ID: _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From salvador at iastate.edu Mon Jan 20 05:09:40 2003 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:09:40 -0600 Subject: Newbie questions In-Reply-To: <200301161821.05103.awallace@rwsoft-online.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 06:21 PM, Alexander Wallace wrote: > Everybody's insight in the matter seems pretty homogeneous with a few > variants here and there, like. And you pretty much told me what I > wanted to hear :) Alexander, I wanted to add a few more comments in response to your original question, since I think I misread how recently you have joined the list and therefore how much of the information commonly exchanged here you may have caught. First, if you're interested in an intensive introduction to Classical Nahuatl, you may be interested in a month-long course organized by John Sullivan at the University of Zacatecas. The course is being taught right now (the month of January), but I imagine that if it is successful the UZ may continue to offer it on a recurring basis. You can interact directly with Dr. Sullivan about this, as he is a member of this list. The course is based on Lockhart's "Nahuatl as it is Written" and on Molina's dictionary. The main features of the course are daily work on translation of classical texts and a 5-day home-stay in a Huastecan Nahuatl village in San Luis Potosí. This year's tuition is $1,500 for one month, plus a modest lodging fee. You can get more details about the course at the UZ's IDIEZ page: http://www.idiez.org.mx/ You should also know that because your question is a common one, we keep a web page listing resources for learning Nahuatl (dictionaries, grammars, texts and courses.) I've just updated that page today with information about the course above and a few other fresh links. You can consult the page through this mailing list's home page: http://www.mrs.umn.edu/academic/history/Nahuatl/index.htm or directly, at: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/nahuatl.html Addenda regarding responses you received from others: Joe Campbell offered a list of excellent scholarly resources to support learning of Classical Nahuatl. I wanted to point out that my lone suggestion of "Llave del Nahuatl" was made on the basis of my assumption that you are not a linguist and because you mentioned that you are a native Spanish speaker. That was my situation when as a teenager I ran into Garibay Kintana's work. Growing up in the Puebla valley I had casually picked up some Nahuatl in ostensive fashion, but I was incompetent in actual conversational settings. When I looked for ways to systematize my budding knowledge of Nahuatl I attempted to digest a few of the materials in the formal "linguistic cannon," but was incompetent to understand the work of specialists. That was when I discovered "Llave del Nahuatl," while browsing one fine day in the Porrúa bookstore in downtown Mexico City. I found the approach readily accessible and calibrated to provide just the right entry point for an interested but non-technical learner. So, that explains my bias ;-). If I assumed incorrectly and you are in fact a linguist then I think the materials recommended by Joe will be of immediate use to you (referring directly to Andrews and the Dibble and Anderson commentaries.) AND, I EARNESTLY recommend the Campbell and Karttunen Foundation Course, which Joe's modesty almost prevented him from listing. I can say the same thing for it that I have for "Llave del Nahuatl." It is accessible and methodical and is an excellent entry point to the language. Lastly, Frances Karttunen and Juergen Stowasser have pointed you toward the Hills and Hills "Speaking Mexicano." I again have a personal bias, since this book documents a study based in the very region where I was first exposed to Nahuatl. With that obligation to disclosure out of the way, I think this book is one of the best ways to understand the present state of the language. The reason is that, in addition to a linguistic analysis and interpretation of contemporary Nahuatl uses, the book provides excellent context by starting with a historical and cultural overview of the area of the study, and that summary is about the best I've seen (to understand the present uses of any language, it is important to understand the forces that have molded it). Just to pique your curiosity a bit, the actual analysis is of the way that Mexicano is used in various communities of the region to signify status or prestige. Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From salvador at iastate.edu Mon Jan 20 06:05:08 2003 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 00:05:08 -0600 Subject: Canoa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 03:44 PM, r. joe campbell wrote: > Tepoztla'n, Morelos (back in the 60s) seemed fairly close to > "classical", but the "line" of speaker/non-speaker has moved since > then. Now the youngest Nahuatl speaker that I know of there is 70 and > most people who really speak it are considerably older than him. > Another close match is San Miguel Canoa, Puebla. This prompts me to mention in passing that the last time I was in Canoa, with a group of my students in March 2000, folks there were gravely concerned with the acculturative influence of the new middle school (secundaria) that was established on the road between Puebla City and Canoa. What the family we stayed with conveyed was that their kids were now mixing with the hoi poloi (mestizos) from the urban periphery of Puebla who were also attending the school, and that this had troubling consequences for the cultural identity of the Canoa kids, not the least of which was a growing problem with drugs, which they claimed had not been an issue prior to this. Another growing concern was the extent to which the City of Puebla was appropriating the runoff water from Matlalcueyatl and the town was encountering grave water shortages. For those not familiar with the region, it was the essence of locating a town (altepetl) in the high, arid central plateaus of central Mexico that runoff water be caught from surrounding slopes. We were told that the competition for water was aggressive, to the extent that a small pipe put in by communal labor to conduct water from the slopes of Matlalcueyatl was sabotaged. They of course had theories about who would have motives for such action. Lastly, we found everyone concerned about the price of corn. In short, they could not sell corn profitably because the official price at CONASUPO outlets was lower than their cost of production. This is a commonplace in rural Mexico these days, and the people in Canoa were very clear in identifying the North American Free Trade Agreement as the root of this particular problem. For these folks, a corn-centered culture, the implications of losing the economic viability of their main staple was a crisis of major proportion. Just one consequence was that they saw themselves as condemned to become menial laborers for the wealthy of Puebla City. All this they told us while providing 20 of us a sumptuous meal of gorditas and refusing to even hear our offers of restitution. But they WOULD say "Huel miac totlatlauhtia..." Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From salvador at iastate.edu Mon Jan 20 07:00:25 2003 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 01:00:25 -0600 Subject: Naive Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 12:09 PM, Brett Breitwieser wrote: > How useful would a study of Nahuatl be to someone who is also > interested in > learning the Hopi Language? ... > I want to learn Hopi/Aztec for both archaeological and personal > reasons... If you're interested in documenting the development of Uto-Aztecan langugages, that would be one thing. But, for someone interested in learning Hopi for practical reasons, I personally don't see learning Nahuatl as a productive route. The main reason, simplistically, is that though Hopi and Nahuatl share a common ancient lineage, they are today distinct languages (not mutually intelligible), as opposed to dialects of a single language, and they are not related linearly. Furthermore, there is no shortage of materials and opportunities for the direct learning of Nahuatl. The recent question on this list involving the usefulness of learning Classic Nahuatl in order to then acquire a contemporary dialect resulted in the general conclusion that this strategy could be useful (assuming lack of immediate facility to learn a contemporary dialect directly). The difference with your query is that contemporary Nahuatl dialects FOLLOWED Classic Nahuatl, and that circumstances and the relatively short timeline involved have not caused great differentiation among most of the descendants (today's most divergent dialects were probably also strongly differentiated at the time of European contact.) Hopi on the other hand, preceded the development of Nahuatl, and the time remove is significant. It is also important that Hopi was not a direct predecessor of Nahuatl, but is rather the end point of a lone branch in the northern group of the greater Uto-Aztecan language family, and that this branch diverged deep in prehistoric time. So, for practical purposes, understanding the structure of Nahuatl will afford you no particular advantages for learning Hopi, which has its own peculiar properties (for example, Hopi would be an ideal language for astrophysicists, because in Hopi you equate events that happen very far from your location with things happening a very long time ago. The farther the event is from you in space, then the farther it is from you in time. Perfect for astrophysical research ;-)). To briefly give you an idea of the time-space difference between Hopi and Nahuatl, consider an analogous case. You are an English speaker. English is a language belonging to the western branch of the greater Germanic family of languages. The Germanic family, in turn is related with the Italic and Indo-Aryan language families due to a common ancestry in proto-Indoeuropean. Consider the wide variance in these languages and the time depths involved with their evolution. The west Germanic languages probably diverged in the first few centuries of the common era. When was the original common Indoeuropean spoken? A safe estimate is probably about 3,000 to 4,000 years ago. So, within that span of time languages as diverse as Bengali, Kurdish, Catalan, German, Slovene and English have formed. Now for comparison, Nahuatl is grouped with the southern branch of Uto-Aztecan, with the Sonoran language group. Hopi belongs to the northern branch. The best estimates available at present indicate that Nahuatl diverged from the main Sonoran branch about 4,500 years ago, probably some place in present-day western Sonora, approximately at the time when the progenitor of all major European and Indo-Iranian languages was spoken in a small corner of south-central Eurasia. The southern branch of Uto-Aztecan had diverged from the northern branch BEFORE this point. The recent discussion on Classical Nahuatl as a precursor for the study of modern Nahuatl prompted the following comment: On Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 03:44 PM, r. joe campbell wrote: > On the other hand, if you started with a "further-out" modern dialect, > going to another dialect would present more difficulties. I think of > it with the "hub and spoke" metaphor: if you start at the hub, each > spoke is immediately related to what you know, but if you start "way > out there" on any arbitrary spoke, who knows how much that spoke is > going to contribute your learning the next one? Using Joe's example, you're asking not whether an end point on a spoke will help you get to the hub, but whether an end point on a spoke on a totally different wheel (albeit on the same cart ;-), will help you get to the hub on the wheel of your interest. > Is the book listed below still available from the same source > (University of Minnesota)? Quemah. (Yes ;-)). > Campbell, Joe R. and Frances Karttunen, Foundation Course in Nahuatl > Grammar. Vol. I: Text and Exercises; vol. II: Vocabulary and Key > (Missoula: > University of Montana, 1997) 336p. & 272p. $40.00 for both volumes, > shipping > included > > Dr. J. F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > University of Minnesota, Morris > Morris, MN 56267 Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From salvador at iastate.edu Mon Jan 20 07:32:35 2003 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 01:32:35 -0600 Subject: Does chancles = slippers? In-Reply-To: <33685.12.254.209.145.1042844182.squirrel@www.nahuatl.info> Message-ID: On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 04:56 PM, wrote: > Although my original question was raised without excluding the > possibility > of 'bad grammar' as with the example of: you all = ya'll This is an example of a common and perfectly functional contraction (you + all = y'all) used in southern dialects of American English, and not an example of "bad grammar" per se. > One question: In your experience, do (some) linguistic researchers > approach their questions while excluding the possibility that "bad > grammar" may be one of the results? A common mantra among linguists is that their science is descriptive, not prescriptive. The distinctions between proper and improper grammar within a language are "real," of course, but usually related to the imposition of standards that are meaningful in a cultural context. As students of the mechanics of language and its evolution, linguists will of course take note of such quibbles and distinctions, but their focus is on the set of processes that adapt a people's utterances to meet their needs. > In my limited experience with languages, few speakers of any > first-spoken > language are "excellent" at observing grammar in any randomly expressed > discourse. It is even more interesting than that. We acquire an understanding very early in our development about the rules for formulating valid sentences in our native languages, and even though we continue to develop this skill into adulthood, and have very clear ideas about what constitutes proper speech within our native language, few of us are actually able to articulate explicitly what those rules are. We know them, but it takes special study to become consciously aware of them! > As such, the possibility should exist that 'poor grammar' > could be learned as readily as 'good grammar' in the absence of any > sort > of 'control' such as a formal education. Yes, no, maybe, or unlikely > (is > this true)? Sure, with the caveat that to a pure linguist the distinction between "poor" and "standard" grammar is undefined, or rather is a social construction. Your "education" is a way of imposing standards on you, linguistically, culturally, philosophically, morally, politically, etc. People and their cultures change, therefore their communication needs change and their languages evolve to suit. The mechanisms whereby that occurs are the main focus of interest of linguistics as a whole (the gospel according to moi, with apologies to ACTUAL linguists ;-)). Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From brettb at rajah.com Mon Jan 20 07:03:15 2003 From: brettb at rajah.com (Brett Breitwieser) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:03:15 -0800 Subject: Naive Questions In-Reply-To: <1067.64.175.45.24.1042828249.squirrel@webmail.coatli.com> Message-ID: Thanks to everyone for the kind responses... I've ordered "Speaking Mexicano" to get a basic cultural understanding and though I can see that it will be of little help in learning Hopi, I will order the Campbell Foundation set as well... My Spanish is problematic to say the least, as I speak a variant based on French learned in High School, practiced for three years in West Africa (Senegal) modified by exposure to the Arabs for 15 years, and a year of Spanish from a teacher from Barcelona who had studied in France (without realizing it we kept mutually falling into French variants in the class, much to the consternation of my fellow classmates!) Combined with the Wolof, Serer and Peulani from West Africa and some Mandarin Chinese (1 year in College, several years exposure to Mandarin and Cantonese here in California) and Japanese (1 year in College and several years exposure as a Zen Buddhist)... and I speak a very strange Pirate's Creole! When I listen to Spanish I tend to hear the common Latin roots with Arabic mixed in... might as well add Mexicano/Nahuatl to make life interesting... and if I can find the sources I am quite interested to find some way of picking up smatterings of Hopi, Navajo, and Apache... I'm not sure where this is all leading... but learning even small amounts of languages of others opens up new worlds and world-views as I have found in the past... *huehuetlahtolli* ;*) Anyway, thanks for the responses... I'm still quite interested in the Aztec influences that reached up into Arizuma... Wish me luck, life is an adventure... even for undisciplined types like myself who are literally "all over the map"... thanks again for humoring me! *tlazocamati* Brett Breitwieser (brettb at rajah.com) Zen Site: http://zenbud.org Bald Eagle Speaks: http://rajah.com Tech Support: http://surfnetusa.com/techsupport > > > From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Jan 20 12:54:05 2003 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 07:54:05 -0500 Subject: Non-Indo-European languages Message-ID: Ricardo has written impeccably about the linguistic history of the Uto-Aztecan languages. He is absolutely on target about the profound and ancient divergence between the northern and southern branches of this family. So what I have to add here is an additional thought and not in any way contradictory to what Ricardo has said. Benjamin Lee Whorf, who studied both northern and southern Uto-Aztecan languages and other non-Indo-European languages as well, warned against the strictures of the Indo-European mindset. Speakers of what might be called "standard average European" (SAE) languages bring to the task of learning a non-Indo-European language preconceptions about how languages work, and these preconceptions may hinder their understanding of how other languages work. Learning ONE non-Indo-European language serves to dispel SAE assumptions and open one to the greater possibilities across human languages. So someone who has learned some Nahuatl is probably better prepared to approach Hopi than someone who speaks just Spanish and/or English. But someone like me who came to Nahuatl with a prior knowledge of Finnish (a language utterly different from SAE languages) has about the same advantage. Just having broken out of SAE is a help, but not all languages are equally useful for learning other languages. For instance, knowing Finnish has been helpful for Nahuatl, and it also seems to be helpful for such completely unrelated languages as Quechua, Turkish, and Korean. But it doesn't bring much useful to learning languages that make distinctive use of tone. I've had a vastly harder time with Yucatec Maya than with Nahuatl, but probably someone who knows an Asian or African tone language would be better prepared to learn Mayan languages and Chinantec, for instance. So yes, learning some Nahuatl would probably be more useful to acquiring Hopi than studying Chinese, for instance. That said, aside from the polyglot sort of linguist, most people don't have the time and enthusiasm to learn one language in order to facilitate learning another one. In a sense, that's what makes the Andrews book about Nahuatl so difficult. Andrews sets out to dispel the SAE mindset by teaching a meta-grammatical structure for Nahuatl which isn't universal technical linguistic terminology, but something very particular to Andrews's understanding of Nahuatl. His belief is that learning this abstract structure will facilitate accurate learning of classical Nahuatl, but for most people it's equivalent to learning one really hard language in order to learn another very hard language. Who has the time and determination? It's discouraging. For me Andrews is an invaluable reference work but not a language-learning aid, even though that is what Andrews intends it to be. One thing about the Andrews book though. It takes us beyond Garibay's and Thelma Sullivan's introductions to Nahuatl by insisting on an understanding of Nahuatl phonology and morphology on its own terms and not through the obscuring curtain of the imperfect orthography that was devised in the 16th century. This isn't just a matter of pronunciation. By confusing the language with the orthography Garibay and Sullivan (and for that matter Simeon in his etymologies too) wander into error and miss generalities that make the language easier to grasp. For a couple of reasons the 16th- and 17th-century dictionaries and grammars of Mesoamerican languages are generally superior to ones written later. One is that the friars who compiled them did so from total immersion in the community of speakers of the languages about which they wrote. Another, specific to the Jesuit grammarians, is that they came from an academic tradition that involved study of Hebrew, Arabic, Chinese, and other non-SAE languages as well as Latin. Acquiring Nahuatl involves setting aside SAE ideas about how singular and plural work; paying attention to such distinctions as animate/inanimate, human/nonhuman, specific/nonspecific, transitive/intransitive; and putting up with ambiguity about who did what to whom. It's an exercise in futility to produce things in English or Spanish and seek to translate them directly into Nahuatl. The same would be true for Hopi with its very different approach to space and time. My head spins when I contemplate the prospect of translating anything from non-native Nahuatl to non-native Hopi! From lynn.foster at umb.edu Mon Jan 20 13:50:33 2003 From: lynn.foster at umb.edu (Lynn Foster) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 08:50:33 -0500 Subject: Canoa Message-ID: On Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 03:44 PM, r. joe campbell wrote: > Tepoztla'n, Morelos (back in the 60s) seemed fairly close to > "classical", but the "line" of speaker/non-speaker has moved since > then. Now the youngest Nahuatl speaker that I know of there is 70 and > most people who really speak it are considerably older than him. > Another close match is San Miguel Canoa, Puebla. This prompts me to mention in passing that the last time I was in Canoa, with a group of my students in March 2000, folks there were gravely concerned with the acculturative influence of the new middle school (secundaria) that was established on the road between Puebla City and Canoa. What the family we stayed with conveyed was that their kids were now mixing with the hoi poloi (mestizos) from the urban periphery of Puebla who were also attending the school, and that this had troubling consequences for the cultural identity of the Canoa kids, not the least of which was a growing problem with drugs, which they claimed had not been an issue prior to this. Another growing concern was the extent to which the City of Puebla was appropriating the runoff water from Matlalcueyatl and the town was encountering grave water shortages. For those not familiar with the region, it was the essence of locating a town (altepetl) in the high, arid central plateaus of central Mexico that runoff water be caught from surrounding slopes. We were told that the competition for water was aggressive, to the extent that a small pipe put in by communal labor to conduct water from the slopes of Matlalcueyatl was sabotaged. They of course had theories about who would have motives for such action. ed to become menial laborers for the wealthy of Puebla City. All this they told us while providing 20 of us a sumptuous meal of gorditas and refusing to even hear our offers of restitution. But they WOULD say "Huel miac totlatlauhtia..." Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Mon Jan 20 16:51:26 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:51:26 -0600 Subject: Newbie questions In-Reply-To: <612490AE-2C35-11D7-9B62-00039303140C@iastate.edu> Message-ID: Gracias mil Ricardo! The intensive course you mention sounds very interesting. I sure hope i can take it one day. Unfortunately I can't at this point, take off a month for such an excellent experience. You were not wrong when you thought of me as a non technical person in the study of the languages. I'm a mere computer programmer/amateur classical guitarrist mortal :) But i love languages and i find nahuatl very interesting and I want to se how far i can go with it. I tried to order the book online but was unable, so I'll have a friend of mine in mexico toget it for me. Thanks very much also for all the other comments. This is all good for me! Tlazocamatzin. Quoting "Ricardo J. Salvador" : > On Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 06:21 PM, Alexander Wallace wrote: > > > Everybody's insight in the matter seems pretty homogeneous with a few > > > variants here and there, like. And you pretty much told me what I > > wanted to hear :) > > Alexander, > > I wanted to add a few more comments in response to your original > question, since I think I misread how recently you have joined the list > > and therefore how much of the information commonly exchanged here you > may have caught. > > First, if you're interested in an intensive introduction to Classical > Nahuatl, you may be interested in a month-long course organized by John > > Sullivan at the University of Zacatecas. The course is being taught > right now (the month of January), but I imagine that if it is > successful the UZ may continue to offer it on a recurring basis. You > can interact directly with Dr. Sullivan about this, as he is a member > of this list. The course is based on Lockhart's "Nahuatl as it is > Written" and on Molina's dictionary. The main features of the course > are daily work on translation of classical texts and a 5-day home-stay > in a Huastecan Nahuatl village in San Luis Potosí. This year's tuition > is $1,500 for one month, plus a modest lodging fee. You can get more > details about the course at the UZ's IDIEZ page: > > http://www.idiez.org.mx/ > > You should also know that because your question is a common one, we > keep a web page listing resources for learning Nahuatl (dictionaries, > grammars, texts and courses.) I've just updated that page today with > information about the course above and a few other fresh links. You can > > consult the page through this mailing list's home page: > > http://www.mrs.umn.edu/academic/history/Nahuatl/index.htm > > or directly, at: > > http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/nahuatl.html > > Addenda regarding responses you received from others: > > Joe Campbell offered a list of excellent scholarly resources to support > > learning of Classical Nahuatl. I wanted to point out that my lone > suggestion of "Llave del Nahuatl" was made on the basis of my > assumption that you are not a linguist and because you mentioned that > you are a native Spanish speaker. That was my situation when as a > teenager I ran into Garibay Kintana's work. Growing up in the Puebla > valley I had casually picked up some Nahuatl in ostensive fashion, but > I was incompetent in actual conversational settings. When I looked for > ways to systematize my budding knowledge of Nahuatl I attempted to > digest a few of the materials in the formal "linguistic cannon," but > was incompetent to understand the work of specialists. That was when I > discovered "Llave del Nahuatl," while browsing one fine day in the > Porrúa bookstore in downtown Mexico City. I found the approach readily > accessible and calibrated to provide just the right entry point for an > interested but non-technical learner. So, that explains my bias ;-). If > > I assumed incorrectly and you are in fact a linguist then I think the > materials recommended by Joe will be of immediate use to you (referring > > directly to Andrews and the Dibble and Anderson commentaries.) > > AND, I EARNESTLY recommend the Campbell and Karttunen Foundation > Course, which Joe's modesty almost prevented him from listing. I can > say the same thing for it that I have for "Llave del Nahuatl." It is > accessible and methodical and is an excellent entry point to the > language. > > Lastly, Frances Karttunen and Juergen Stowasser have pointed you toward > > the Hills and Hills "Speaking Mexicano." I again have a personal bias, > since this book documents a study based in the very region where I was > first exposed to Nahuatl. With that obligation to disclosure out of the > > way, I think this book is one of the best ways to understand the > present state of the language. The reason is that, in addition to a > linguistic analysis and interpretation of contemporary Nahuatl uses, > the book provides excellent context by starting with a historical and > cultural overview of the area of the study, and that summary is about > the best I've seen (to understand the present uses of any language, it > is important to understand the forces that have molded it). Just to > pique your curiosity a bit, the actual analysis is of the way that > Mexicano is used in various communities of the region to signify status > > or prestige. > > Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 > 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 > Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu > Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad > > > > From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Mon Jan 20 22:53:12 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:53:12 -0600 Subject: Newbie questions In-Reply-To: <612490AE-2C35-11D7-9B62-00039303140C@iastate.edu> Message-ID: Thankyou very much Ricardo. Earlier this morning I replied to this message, but I don't see my reply on the list, so i will send this again. If you get a duplicate, please forgive me. You are right, I'm a mere mortal (not a linguist :) ), so your suggestions are perfect for me. The course in Zacatecas sounds like a great oportunity, unfortunately at this point I can't take a full month off from work. Maybe in the future. A really appreciate all this information. I love languages and nahuatls is something i really want to see how far I can go with. Gracias mil. On Sunday 19 January 2003 23:09, Ricardo J. Salvador wrote: > On Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 06:21 PM, Alexander Wallace wrote: > > Everybody's insight in the matter seems pretty homogeneous with a few > > variants here and there, like. And you pretty much told me what I > > wanted to hear :) > > Alexander, > > I wanted to add a few more comments in response to your original > question, since I think I misread how recently you have joined the list > and therefore how much of the information commonly exchanged here you > may have caught. > > First, if you're interested in an intensive introduction to Classical > Nahuatl, you may be interested in a month-long course organized by John > Sullivan at the University of Zacatecas. The course is being taught > right now (the month of January), but I imagine that if it is > successful the UZ may continue to offer it on a recurring basis. You > can interact directly with Dr. Sullivan about this, as he is a member > of this list. The course is based on Lockhart's "Nahuatl as it is > Written" and on Molina's dictionary. The main features of the course > are daily work on translation of classical texts and a 5-day home-stay > in a Huastecan Nahuatl village in San Luis Potosí. This year's tuition > is $1,500 for one month, plus a modest lodging fee. You can get more > details about the course at the UZ's IDIEZ page: > > http://www.idiez.org.mx/ > > You should also know that because your question is a common one, we > keep a web page listing resources for learning Nahuatl (dictionaries, > grammars, texts and courses.) I've just updated that page today with > information about the course above and a few other fresh links. You can > consult the page through this mailing list's home page: > > http://www.mrs.umn.edu/academic/history/Nahuatl/index.htm > > or directly, at: > > http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/nahuatl.html > > Addenda regarding responses you received from others: > > Joe Campbell offered a list of excellent scholarly resources to support > learning of Classical Nahuatl. I wanted to point out that my lone > suggestion of "Llave del Nahuatl" was made on the basis of my > assumption that you are not a linguist and because you mentioned that > you are a native Spanish speaker. That was my situation when as a > teenager I ran into Garibay Kintana's work. Growing up in the Puebla > valley I had casually picked up some Nahuatl in ostensive fashion, but > I was incompetent in actual conversational settings. When I looked for > ways to systematize my budding knowledge of Nahuatl I attempted to > digest a few of the materials in the formal "linguistic cannon," but > was incompetent to understand the work of specialists. That was when I > discovered "Llave del Nahuatl," while browsing one fine day in the > Porrúa bookstore in downtown Mexico City. I found the approach readily > accessible and calibrated to provide just the right entry point for an > interested but non-technical learner. So, that explains my bias ;-). If > I assumed incorrectly and you are in fact a linguist then I think the > materials recommended by Joe will be of immediate use to you (referring > directly to Andrews and the Dibble and Anderson commentaries.) > > AND, I EARNESTLY recommend the Campbell and Karttunen Foundation > Course, which Joe's modesty almost prevented him from listing. I can > say the same thing for it that I have for "Llave del Nahuatl." It is > accessible and methodical and is an excellent entry point to the > language. > > Lastly, Frances Karttunen and Juergen Stowasser have pointed you toward > the Hills and Hills "Speaking Mexicano." I again have a personal bias, > since this book documents a study based in the very region where I was > first exposed to Nahuatl. With that obligation to disclosure out of the > way, I think this book is one of the best ways to understand the > present state of the language. The reason is that, in addition to a > linguistic analysis and interpretation of contemporary Nahuatl uses, > the book provides excellent context by starting with a historical and > cultural overview of the area of the study, and that summary is about > the best I've seen (to understand the present uses of any language, it > is important to understand the forces that have molded it). Just to > pique your curiosity a bit, the actual analysis is of the way that > Mexicano is used in various communities of the region to signify status > or prestige. > > Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 > 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 > Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu > Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Jan 21 06:18:25 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:18:25 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl dialects Message-ID: In the light of the recent interest shown in variation in Nahuatl dialects, I wanted to contribute a small sample which shows how words which are basically similar can differ because of certain pronunciation "habits" (which linguists call "rules" -- descriptions of regularities). The villages are: Ameyaltepec, Guerrero San Miguel Canoa, Puebla Hueyapan, Morelos The spelling is "standard", except where the pronunciation necessitates a change. 'cc' is pronounced like a single 'c', namely [k]. I'll intersperse some comments with the numbered examples. Ameyaltepec Canoa Hueyapan 1. I leave it niccahua niccahua niccava I left it oniccauh oniccah oniccan Verbs like '-ca:hua' lose their final vowel in the preterit. Note that Ameyaltepec keeps the /w/ as [w] (spelled 'hu' before vowels and spelled 'uh' elsewhere -- the spelling inversion does NOT indicate a difference in pronunciation; it is related to readability). Canoa converts syllable-final /w/ (including, of course, word-final ones) to [h]. Hueyapan converts intervocalic /w/ to [v] (pronounced as in English, not to be confused the Spanish letter 'v'); in word-final position it is pronounced as [n]. 2. we leave it ticcahuah ticcahuah ticcavah we left it oticcauhqueh oticcahqueh oticcahqueh The only difference in #2 is that in Hueyapan, '-ca:hua' shows up in a *third* phonetic form: '-cah-'. Therefore children learning the language in Hueyapan (and, naturally, as users of it throughout their lives) need to recognize three forms of the stem: word-internal, before a vowel: cava word-internal, before a consonant: cah word-final: can 3. I fall nihuetzi nihuetzi nivetzi he falls huetzi huetzi huetzi These examples establish the fact that in Hueyapan, speakers actually have a pronunciation "rule" that converts /w/ into [v]; if it were not for examples like this, we might simply believe that Hueyapan had undergone a basic change and no longer had a /w/ at all. 4. I fell onihuetz onihuetz onivetz he fell ohuetz ohuetz oetz "oetz" shows that in Hueyapan speakers delete a /w/ that they recognize as part of the word (cf. huetzi, nivetzi) when it is preceded by 'o'. 5. I shell it nigoa I shelled it onigon I don't recall the Ameyaltepec and Canoa forms, but I thought that the Hueyapan examples would tickle your imagination. And the explanation is too big for this space.... 6. you buy it ticcoa ticcoa you bought it oticcouh oticcoh oticcon 7. I return it niccuepa niccuepa niccopa I return you nimitzcuepa nimitzcuepa nimitzcopa I return (myself) nimocuepa nimocuepa nogopa These examples are the only ones in the whole set that indicate that any of the three dialect has changed a vocabulary item: Hueyapan has 'copa' rather than 'cuepa'. But, again, Hueyapan has an extra pronunciation "rule": /k/ becomes [g] intervocalically. Note, however, that the sound of /k/ is maintained when it is preceded by a consonant. Linguists will jump with joy when they notice that 'nogopa' (which is really, in the speaker's mind {nocopa} is pronounced as [nogopa] and 'niccopa' "waits" until all the intervocalic /k/s have been converted to [g] and then reduces its 'cc' to a single [k] sound between vowels. If 'niccopa' got in a hurry and didn't wait, and converted its 'cc' into a single 'c', then it would momentarily become 'nicopa', which would then be changed into *[nigopa] by the /k/ to [g] "rule". Incidentally, although Hueyapan has no "double consonants" (pronounced *long*) except for /ll/ (as in 'calli'), Tepoztlan does have them, but that's another story..... Maybe someone else has some other dialect comparisons? Best regards, Joe From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Tue Jan 21 10:41:14 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 04:41:14 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Forgive my ignorance, what is the sound of this 'v' you talk about? I'm not sure what difference you make reference to. Thanks! > Hueyapan converts intervocalic /w/ to [v] (pronounced as in English, not > to be confused the Spanish letter 'v'); From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Jan 21 18:53:27 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:53:27 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl dialects In-Reply-To: <20030121044114.622e50e9.awallace@rwsoft-online.com> Message-ID: The English 'v' (pronounced as [v]): a fricative sound pronounced by forcing the air stream through the aperture formed by placing the upper teeth on or just inside the lower lip. In most dialects of Spanish, when the orthographic 'b' and 'v' (which are pronounced alike in any case, in spite of the efforts of teachers) are neither preceded by [m] or a pause, they are pronounced by appproximating the upper lip to the lower one while the air stream passes through. The narrowing does not deserve the name of "fricative", but that's the label normally applied to it. The Hueyapan pronunciation of /w/ (orthography 'hu') between vowels is like the *English [v]*. On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Alexander Wallace wrote: > Forgive my ignorance, what is the sound of this 'v' you talk about? I'm > not sure what difference you make reference to. > > Thanks! > > > Hueyapan converts intervocalic /w/ to [v] (pronounced as in English, not > > to be confused the Spanish letter 'v'); > > > From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Jan 21 19:15:31 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:15:31 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I didn't mention stress, but stress in these dialects is the same as in most dialects of modern Nahuatl (and in "classical" Nahuatl, except for the vocative, which had final stress): stress is penultimate, i.e., it falls on the second syllable from the end of the word. The stressed syllable is louder and higher in pitch than other syllables in the word. Best regards, Joe On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > | In the light of the recent interest shown in variation in Nahuatl > |dialects, I wanted to contribute a small sample which shows how words > |which are basically similar can differ because of certain pronunciation > |"habits" (which linguists call "rules" -- descriptions of regularities). > > Fascinating post, but I confess my ignorance this point regarding the > issue of syllabic stress. Do any of the dialects have syllabic stress, > and where does the 'accent' fall in them? Does the past tense marker > have any effect on the location of the syllabic stress? > > Or are the polysyllabic constructions to be uttered in a staccato > manner, each syllable uniformly stressed, like every other? > > > From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Jan 21 19:22:49 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:22:49 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Dialects 2: Speaking of Stress Message-ID: I sent this message to the list some time ago, but membership changes.... Notes on Accent Variability in Nahuatl dialects (I mark accent immediately after the vowel that it occurs on [e.g., a' = accented 'a']) Both San Miguel Canoa (Puebla) and Xaltipan (Tlaxcala) have stress displacement one syllable to the left in the absolutive form of nouns; obviously, this does not occur on words of less than three syllables. >8-) Nouns which have absolutive forms ending in "-li" in "Classical" and many other modern dialects not only shift stress one syllable to the left, but they also drop the final "i": Canoa Tlaxcala "Classical" tla'xcal tla'xcal tortilla tlaxca'lli ca'xtol ca'xtol fifteen caxto'lli ma'cuil ma'cuil five macui'lli Note, however, that while both Canoa and Tlaxcala both also shift stress one syllable to the left in nouns which have absolutive forms ending in "-tli", Canoa keeps the final vowel intact while Tlaxcala deletes it (parallel to the treatment of nouns in "-li" in both dialects). a'moxtli a'moxtl book amo'xtli i'chpochtli i'chpochtl girl ichpochtli tzo'htzomahtli tzo'htzomahtl clothing tzohtzoma'htli ma'htlactli ma'htlactl ten mahtla'ctli Thus, Tlaxcala maintains regular penultimate stress in these nouns, but Canoa has the unusual (for Nahuatl) pattern of antepenult stress in nouns ending in "-tli". However, Tlaxcala "pays" for its regularity in the treatment of stress: notice that these particular nouns now end in consonant clusters -- something that Nahuatl is said not to "like". (Other dialects *do* develop some "unliked" consonant cluster, such as "xnicma'ti", 'I don't know it' [San Agustin Oapan, Guerrero], but that's another story.) When I find my notes on stress shift in Oapan, I'll get back to you. Or maybe someone else can contribute these observations..... Michoacan seems to have "basically" penultimate stress, but surface forms frequently show final stress due to deletions. quichi'hua he does it quichi'c he did it Comment: The consonant following the stressed vowel is optionally deleted, resulting also in "quichi'ac", and further, the unstressed vowel following stressed vowel is deleted. Past tense does not involve truncation of the stem; preterit singular forms are indicated by the "-c" suffix. Further examples: moca'hua he remains moca'c he remained Comment: Derived from "moca'[hua]c" nicmela'hua I straighten it nicmela'c I straightened it Variable forms: nechi'lic she said it to me nechi'c she said it to me Comment: Derived from "nechi'[li]c" cata'ya he was cata' he was Comment: Also derived by deletion of post-stress consonant and vowel. cua'huil tree cua'l tree Comment: Also derived by deletion of post-stress consonant and vowel. noxo'lol my child noxo'l my child Comment: "noxo'[lo]l" From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Jan 22 02:43:49 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:43:49 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Dialects 2: Speaking of Stress Message-ID: A friend tapped me on the shoulder (by e-mail) and pointed out that the accents were misplaced on the following line. El confundido fui yo! The comment at the bottom has the correct forms. {8-( (Cencah Xochichil) > tzo'htzomahtli tzo'htzomahtl clothing tzohtzoma'htli I'm confused here. Shouldn't these be tzohtzo'mahtli and tzohtzo'mahtl? From BarnesW at DOAKS.org Wed Jan 22 16:52:54 2003 From: BarnesW at DOAKS.org (Barnes, William) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:52:54 -0500 Subject: nizacatimaltzin Message-ID: Listeros, I've been retranslating a portion of the Cantares (f. 15r,17-18) and was interested in some feedback (I've Garibay's, Leon Portilla, and Bierhorst's trans. so please don't reply with those). The phrase is << cuicatl a[n]yolque xochitl ancueponque antepilhua[n] nizacatimaltzin / intochihuitzin ompaye huitze[h] xochimecatl >> I'm not satisfied with resorting to "personal name" for nizacatimaltzin, and have tentatively parsed it as {ni/zaca/-ti-/mal/tzin = I / grass /-conn.-/ captive / [h.]= I the captive warrior}- using Bierhorst's (1985:419) trans. of oceozacatl as a guide. But I am not satisfied. Any input would be welcome. William Barnes From zorrah at att.net Thu Jan 23 03:42:22 2003 From: zorrah at att.net (zorrah at att.net) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 03:42:22 +0000 Subject: Mexica Creation Story Message-ID: Here is a version of the Mexica creation story as translated by Edward Dorn and Gordon Brotherston (from the Sun Unwound, as cited in this website by Beto, a Chicano student at UC Berkeley): http://ollin.net/poesia/suns.html Question: Is there any evidence in Mexico today of "twisted-up" tezontli? And if so, in which direction is the tezontli twisted, clockwise or counter- clockwise? I have only traveled as far south as Saltillo, and I have never seen any twisted-up volcanic red rock. Does it really exist anywhere? Many contemporary Mexica believe that the end of the fifth sun has already passed with the arrival of the Spaniards, and that the rise of the sixth sun now awaits us. Although, I do not believe that the fifth sun has ended (yet) for a number of reasons. I believe the fifth sun will end with greater calamity that besets the whole world and not only us (the Mexica). Citlalin Xochime "Leave Us in Peace" -Riska Opra Sari (Riska: Memories of a Dayak Girlhood) From juanjose1 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 23 06:39:58 2003 From: juanjose1 at hotmail.com (Juan Jose) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:39:58 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?No_era_la_Gran_Tenochtitl=E1n_como_la_pintan_?= Message-ID: El Universal Online - Versión para imprimir No era la Gran Tenochtitlán como la pintan Gabriela Jiménez Bernal El Universal Ciudad de México Miércoles 22 de enero de 2003 Un muro hallado entre las calles Donceles y Argentina permite descubrir que los mexicas no dejaban grandes espacios abiertos como se creía 00:00 El centro ceremonial de la Gran Tenochtitlán no era del todo como lo habíamos imaginado. Así lo demuestra uno de los hallazgos arqueológicos realizados este lunes en el Centro Histórico. Aquella imagen del recinto ceremonial de los mexicas, de pirámides separadas unas de otras por grandes espacios, no es tan exacta. Hecho comprobado a partir del muro descubierto en las calles de Donceles y Argentina tras los trabajos de rehabilitación del Centro (20/01/03, sección DF). Quienes han visitado el Museo del Templo Mayor o transitado por la estación del metro Zócalo recordarán las maquetas que representan los templos de Tenochtitlán: colocados a grandes distancias unos de otros. El arqueólogo Álvaro Barrera explica que se descubrieron dos pirámides que están distanciadas por tan sólo dos metros. "No se trata de hallazgos que cambien nuestra historia pero nos permiten conocer más sobre el centro ceremonial", explica quien es supervisor del Programa de Arqueología Urbana (PAU) fundado en 1991 a instancias del Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia (INAH). Del hallazgo ocurrido el lunes se trata de un muro que marca la terminación de la "Casa de los caballeros águilas", ubicada dentro del Templo Mayor. Hasta ese día se desconocía si dicha edificación continuaba hacia otra dirección. La pared fue demolida para permitir los trabajos de instalación eléctrica. El arqueólogo aclara que no se trataba de una pieza de valor artístico, como lo es una piedra con ornamentación u objetos pehispánicos, su importancia fue que despejó dudas de la prolongación del templo dedicado a los caballeros águilas. A partir de esta excavación se observó que la citada casa está muy cerca a las escalinatas de una pirámide que está debajo del Palacio del Marqués del Apartado, descubierta en 1901 y que posiblemente sea el llamado "Templo de los diversos dioses", dato aún no confirmado. Con este descubrimiento se conoció, después de 100 años, cuál era su límite del lado oriente. Los asombros no paran ahí; los diez arqueólogos de base del PAU trabajan ahora en Palacio Nacional y en la calle de Palma. En la edificación, donde el presidente en turno da el grito de Independencia, han encontrado vestigios de cuatro templos, desde escalinatas hasta muros. También tres ofrendas y pisos de época. Están en proceso de investigación sobre su origen. En la calle de Palma, esquina Carranza, los trabajadores pusieron al descubierto drenajes de la época de la Colonia y de la Independecia. Hace 12 años tomaron mayor fuerza este tipo de hallazgos. Diez arqueólogos son vigilantes de la periferia de este centro ceremonial, limitada en el norte por la calle Luis González; en el sur por Moneda; al este por Correo Mayor y al poniente por Brasil. Barrera los califica como grandes logros, pues de los templos ceremoniales que mencionó Fray Bernardino de Sahagún en su memorias, el PAU tiene detectados 40 basamentos. © 2002 Copyright El Universal-El Universal Online http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/pls/impreso/noticia.html?id_nota=115797&tabla=notas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From juanjose1 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 23 06:39:55 2003 From: juanjose1 at hotmail.com (Juan Jose) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:39:55 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Descubren_vestigios_arqueol=F3gicos_en_distribuidor_San_An?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?tonio_?= Message-ID: El Universal Online - Versión para imprimir Descubren vestigios arqueológicos en distribuidor San Antonio Rafael González El Universal Ciudad de México Miércoles 22 de enero de 2003 Los primeros reportes informan que al parecer se trata de restos humanos, un molcajete, ollas, cazuelas y otros artefactos de la cultura tepaneca, que durante el siglo XV habitó en la zona 10:10 Restos de una osamenta humana, así como vasijas de barro y otros artefactos de la cultura tepaneca fueron encontrados en las obras del distribuidor vial San Antonio en el Distrito Federal. El hallazgo se localizó en las calle del Antiguo Ferrocarril de Cuernavaca y Giraldón, en la colonia Nonoalco Mixcoac, donde los trabajadores excavaron hasta 8 metros de profundidad y encontraron los vestigios de la época prehispánica. Durante un recorrido por la zona, los trabajadores informaron que los restos fueron trasladados al Museo Nacional de Antropología e Historia, donde serán estudiados. La arqueóloga María Flores Hernández, encargada de los vestigios en las obras del distribuidor vial San Antonio, informó que se trata de una osamenta de un hombre quien presuntamente fue sepultado poco antes de la llegada de los españoles a México en el año de 1521. Informó que brigadas de arqueología del Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia (INAH), recorren cotidianamente las obras del distribuidor vial para ver si se encuentran otros restos prehispánicos, ya que cerca de donde se realizan los trabajos se encuentra la Casa de la Pirámide de Nonoalco. Al respecto manifestó que al parecer se trata de restos humanos, un molcajete, ollas, cazuelas y otros artefactos de la cultura tepaneca, que durante el siglo XV habitó en la zona de Tacubaya y Mixcoac. Manifestó que este no es el primer hallazgo prehispánico, ya que en otros lugares donde se han hecho excavaciones profundas se han encontrado algunos vestigios de las culturas prehispánicas, pero esta es la primera ocasión en que se encuentra una osamenta humana. © 2002 Copyright El Universal-El Universal Online http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/pls/impreso/noticia.html?id_nota=115794&tabla=notas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Thu Jan 23 15:29:27 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:29:27 -0600 Subject: Mexica Creation Story In-Reply-To: <20030123034221.ROFX9286.mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc17> Message-ID: Ah! Saltillo... Home sweet home! :) On Wednesday 22 January 2003 21:42, zorrah at att.net wrote: > Here is a version of the Mexica creation story as translated by Edward Dorn > and Gordon Brotherston (from the Sun Unwound, as cited in this website by > Beto, a Chicano student at UC Berkeley): > > http://ollin.net/poesia/suns.html > > Question: Is there any evidence in Mexico today of "twisted-up" tezontli? > And if so, in which direction is the tezontli twisted, clockwise or > counter- clockwise? I have only traveled as far south as Saltillo, and I > have never seen any twisted-up volcanic red rock. Does it really exist > anywhere? > > Many contemporary Mexica believe that the end of the fifth sun has already > passed with the arrival of the Spaniards, and that the rise of the sixth > sun now awaits us. Although, I do not believe that the fifth sun has ended > (yet) for a number of reasons. I believe the fifth sun will end with > greater calamity that besets the whole world and not only us (the Mexica). > > Citlalin Xochime > > "Leave Us in Peace" -Riska Opra Sari (Riska: Memories of a Dayak Girlhood) From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Fri Jan 24 17:00:17 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:00:17 -0600 Subject: cualli tonalli. In-Reply-To: <45549C8A-2FA5-11D7-9E07-00039303140C@iastate.edu> Message-ID: Muy amable Ricardo... Aprecio mucho la respuesta. Me tomo la libertad de ponerle cc hacia la lista nahuatera para permitir que otros se iluminen con tus respuestas. Encuentro muy interezante todo esto. Entiendo mas o menos lo del uso del tzin y tzintli y pil y ton y demas terminaciones para dar matices distintos a sustantivos. Lo que me llama mucho la atencion es la manera en que pronuncias el nocniuhtzine, casi me suena a /nocniucfine/ (de antemano te digo que soy todo un novato en esto)... Como se pronuncia la H ahi? y la tz? Lei en tu pagina la interezanticima explicacion de como ha de pronunciarse la TL y me pregunto si hay algun secreto similar para las otras T del nahuatl y lo mismo para la CH (que no se si ha de usarse fuerte como se acostumbra, digamos en la palabra CHAMUCO, o como los Chihuahuences dicen Chihuahua). Veo tambien con agrado (pues me gusta el sonido) que casi siempre se le da a la H un suave sonido de j (gutural?). Aunque entiendo que a veces es muda, aunque no me queda aun claro cuando. Me pregunto si son esos efectos en la pronunciacion, o mi falta de agudeza auditiva, o una combinacion lo que hace que me suene tan distinto de lo que you lo hubiera pronunciado sin antecedentes reales de la phonologia nahuatl? Un cordial saludo y agradecimiento. Tlazocamatzin (esta bien esto?) On Friday 24 January 2003 08:08, Ricardo J. Salvador wrote: > Que tal Alexander, > > On Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 10:34 PM, Alexander Wallace wrote: > > Serias tan amable en enviarme por este medio el texto en nahuatl y en > > espanyol de lo que se dice en ese mensaje de bienvenida? > > Primero, literalmente: > > Cualli tonalli nocniuhtzine > > Buen dia nuestros amigos respetables > > Tlacuatzin in tehuatzin > > Mucho a ustedes respetables > > xonahuiyacan nican in amatl mehxicopa nocniuhtzine > > placentera llegada aqui la hoja mexicana nuestros amigos respetables > > Y el sentido traducido: > > Buen dia respetables amigos nuestros. Les damos a ustedes una muy > cordial bienvenida a esta hoja de lo mexicano. > > Haz de saber que esto es muy dialéctico y moderno (por ejemplo, el > saludo "cualli tonalli" no es "natural" del nahuatl, ya que es una > traducción de la usanza castellana "buen dia." Un saludo nahuatl muy > propio sería (entre muchos): "yolicahtzin," lo cual significa > literalmente "que esté vuestra merced tranquilo," pero que significa > que se está reconociendo a la persona. Este saludo ya se oye tan > arcáico en los dialectos modernos como se oye su traducción en > castellano. > > Por último, el uso de "respetables" y "ustedes" en la traducción > anterior es para indicar el modo de hablar reverencial del nahuatl, > pero no hay forma de representarlo fielmente en castellano. O sea, en > el texto nahuatl no verás palabras equivalentes al "usted" y > "respetable," sino que se modifica el sustantivo correspondiente para > indicar que se habla con reverencia. En la mayoría de los casos esto se > hace agregando la partícula "-tzin" al final de la palabra, aunque hay > que tener criterio para hacerlo, puesto que a veces esta misma > partícula se utiliza para indicar modo diminutivo. Si te interesa este > aspecto del nahuatl, Fran Karttunen ha publicado un estudio especial > sobre el tema: > > Karttunen, F. (1990). "Conventions of polite speech in Nahuatl." > Estudios de Cultura Náhuatl 20: 281-296. > > Saludos. > > Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 > 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 > Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu > Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From bcoon at montana.edu Fri Jan 24 22:08:29 2003 From: bcoon at montana.edu (Coon, Brad) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 15:08:29 -0700 Subject: Paleography resource? Message-ID: I have recently been working with a facsimile edition of the Primeros Memoriales. I have come to feel the need for more depth in my knowledge of the the paleography of the period. Can anyone recommend the best or even a 'pretty good' work on the subject? I have exhausted my own resources, those of my library, and have searched Worldcat without any real luck. I originally worked on this material when I had access to both the Univ of Chicago's library and Norm McQuown so any suggestions would be welcomed. thanks, Brad Coon Reference Librarian The Libraries-Montana State University bcoon at montana.edu (406) 994-6026 From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Jan 25 01:36:01 2003 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 19:36:01 -0600 Subject: Paleography resources Message-ID: Estimado Brad: Following is a bibliography of the sources I've gathered to have close and hand while working with colonial manuscripts. They've all got something to offer and complement each other nicely. Saludos, David P.S. There's nothing like drawing up a chart of all the variants of each letter of the alphabet to take the guess out of the work, and practice the science, rather than the art, of paleography; intuition can be a treacherous tool. ***************************************************************** Bribiesca Sumano, María Elena, Antología de paleografía y diplomática, 2 vols., Toluca, Universidad Autónoma del Estado de México, 1991. Bribiesca Sumano, María Elena, Introducción a la paleografía, 3a. reimpresión, México, Archivo General de la Nación, 1981. Colomera y Rodríguez, Venancio, Paleografía castellana, o sea, colección de documentos auténticos para comprender con perfección todas las formas de letras manuscritas que se usaron en los siglos XII, XIII, XIV, XV y XVI, alfabetos mayúsculas y minúsculas, cifras, signos, abreviaturas, tabla numérica y un vocabulario del castellano antiguo, con la traducción correspondiente en las páginas inmediatas, Valladolid, Imprenta de P. de la Llana, 1862. Normas para la transcripción de documentos históricos, México, Archivo General de la Nación, 1979. Normas para la transcripción de documentos y corrección de originales para su edición, México, Archivo General de la Nación, 1981. Pérez Fernández del Castillo, Bernardo, Historia de la escribanía en la Nueva España y del notoriado en México, 2a. ed., México, Colegio de Notarios del Distrito Federal/Editorial de Porrúa, 1988. Pezzat Arzave, Delia, Elementos de paleografía novohispana, México, Facultad de Filosofía y Letras, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, 1990. Ramírez Montes, Mina, Manuscritos novohispanos, ejercicios de lectura, 2 vols., México, Instituto de Investigaciones Estéticas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, 1990. Sánchez Bueno de Bonfil, María Cristina, El papel del papel en la Nueva España, México, Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia, 1993. Villasana Haggard, J.; McLean, Malcolm Dallas, Handbook for translators of Spanish historical documents, Austin, University of Texas, 1941. ***************************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Sat Jan 25 12:52:27 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 13:52:27 +0100 Subject: cualli tonalli. In-Reply-To: <6190F68A-3081-11D7-91B8-00039303140C@iastate.edu> Message-ID: Agradezco muchisimo tu respuesta. Empece siguiendo lo que parece un amigable pero interrumpido curso de nahuatl en http://www.ulsa.edu.mx/public_html/publicaciones/onteanqui/b11/nahuatl.html (aunque no muestra este sitio una manera de ir mas adelante a las lecciones en sus boletines 12-16, los pude encontrar, asi que si hay algun interesado puedo mandar todas las ligas por separado) En una de las lecciones habla en efecto del saltillo, pero no me queaba claro... Tenia pues dudas al respecto (principalmente la tl y la h) que has sido tan amable en aclarar. Estoy pues ya en espera de mis libros para entrarle mas duro al toro, y seguramente volvere por mas consejos. A pesar de que en la lista halla expertos estoy seguro que debe haber tambien quienes, como yo, pueden aprovechar mucho de tus comentarios. Nuevamente un gran saludo y sincero agradecimiento. Alex W. On Saturday 25 January 2003 05:23 pm, Ricardo J. Salvador wrote: > From: Ricardo J. Salvador > Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 10:50:51 PM US/Central > To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu > Subject: Re: cualli tonalli. > > [Alexander, emprendiendo la jornada de hoy me doy cuenta que por alguna > razón el servidor de nahuat-l no ha distribuido una respuesta que te > envié anoche. Lo mas probable es que esté descompuesto por el momento > el aparato aquel y que el lunes lo descubran y lo compongan, pero por > lo pronto, para que no pienses que se te ha ignorado te envio > directamente el mensaje aludido. Saludos.] > > On Friday, January 24, 2003, at 05:16 PM, Alexander Wallace wrote: > > Que tal Alexander, > > Primero, al grano de tus preguntas: > > Lo que me llama mucho la atencion es la manera en que pronuncias el > > nocniuhtzine, casi me suena a /nocniucfine/ (de antemano te digo que > > soy todo > > un novato en esto)... Como se pronuncia la H ahi? y la tz? > > La "h" es el famoso "saltillo." Tu forma de pronunciarlo dependerá del > dialecto que ensayes. El sonido "clásico" es una interrupción literal > del aliento, como quien dice una breve ausencia de sonido en un flujo > de sonido. Sin embargo, en varios dialectos modernos esto ya se ha > convertido en sonido, y es la breve aspiración que detectase, semejante > a una leve "jota" del castellano. > > Creo que hay por lo menos dos razones por las cuales el sonido de la > grabación no te fué claro. El primero y mas obvio es que la grabación > es de baja calidad, ni hablar. Pudiera prometerte una actualizacíon mas > nítida pero es mejor anunciarlo ya que esté hecho y no comprometerme a > la ligera. Y segundo, es un sonido que no tiene contraparte en > castellano y por lo tanto tal vez difícil de interpretar. > Afortunadamente no es difícil producir el sonido, y para esto bastan > unos cuantos modelos auditivos a seguir (este si es un caso en el cual > el apoyo de una comunidad de hablantes sería valioso.) Lo otro es que > este es un sonido que no siempre se captura en la grafía castellana, y > aún cuando se hace se hace de formas variadas, de modo que en realidad > hay que aprender cuando y como aparece para poder compensar la gran > varianza que existe en su representación gráfica. > > El sonido de la "tz" no encierra mayor misterio. Pronuncialo como > pronunciaras lo mismo en castellano. > > > Lei en tu pagina la interezanticima explicacion de como ha de > > pronunciarse la > > TL y me pregunto si hay algun secreto similar para las otras T del > > nahuatl > > Para un hablante del castellano sólo la "tl" presenta dificultades por > no tener contraparte directa en este idioma. Las otras dos "t" ("t" y > "tz") las podrás pronunciar tranquilamente siguiendo en forma fiel la > pronunciación castellana. > > > y lo mismo para la CH (que no se si ha de usarse fuerte como se > > acostumbra, > > digamos en la palabra CHAMUCO, o como los Chihuahuences dicen > > Chihuahua). > > Por lo general la "ch" indica la che fuerte del castellano. El sonido > suave de la "che chihuahence" que mencionas es un sonido muy importante > del nahuatl, y por lo general se indica con la letra "x" (digo por lo > general porque como es de esperarse por el hecho de que la x ha > cumplido varias funciones en el castellano a través de sus épocas, se > encuentran muchos usos idiosincráticos de la letra y hay que tener > criterio del nahuatl para interpretarla correctamente en ciertos casos.) > > > Veo tambien con agrado (pues me gusta el sonido) que casi siempre se > > le da a la H > > un suave sonido de j (gutural?). Aunque entiendo que a veces es muda, > > aunque > > no me queda aun claro cuando. > > Espero que la breve explicación anterior del saltillo y sus variantes > dialectales modernas te aclare un poco el tema. Ojo que el sonido de la > "j gutural" que aludes es un sonido fuerte que se produce en la > garganta (como en la última sílaba de "Heinrich" en alemán.) No hay que > confundir a este sonido con el saltillo (o aspiración, según tu modelo > dialectal.) > > > Me pregunto si son esos efectos en la pronunciacion, o mi falta de > > agudeza > > auditiva, o una combinacion lo que hace que me suene tan distinto de > > lo que > > you lo hubiera pronunciado sin antecedentes reales de la phonologia > > nahuatl? > > Tal vez la combinación, pero "tu agudeza auditiva" no puede compensar > la mala grabación que has estado usando. A pesar de este obstáculo creo > que con tus preguntas haz indentificado todos los sonidos claves que > habrás de dominar para mascar bien al nahuatl, con la excepción de la > "L" geminada, como en las palabras "pilli" y "calli." Este sonido es > como una "l gorda" ;-), o una "L" de larga duración, y no la "LL" del > casteLLano. > > Mira, para pagarte un poco el haberte desviado con los pininos de mis > primeras grabaciones digitales, te recomiendo que te apoyes de las > varias grabaciones que tengo enlazadas en la hoja que enlista los > varios recursos para el aprendizaje nahuatl. La calidad de tales > grabaciones es mejor y aparte te ofrecen la ventaja de capturar los > sonidos que producen los hablantes nativos del idioma. Aquí te mando un > sitio en donde el profesor W. J. Taffe de la Universidad Estatal de > Plymouth (New Hampshire) presenta algunas locuciones de un > nativo-hablante del valle de Puebla recitando una poesía y dando una > bienvenida formal: > > http://oz.plymouth.edu/~wjt/Nahuatl/nahuatl.html > > Y, por último, una aclaración respecto al favor que me haces: > > Me tomo la libertad de ponerle cc hacia la lista nahuatera para > > permitir que otros se iluminen con tus respuestas. > > Agradezco las flores ;-), pero los suscritos a esta lista son en su > mayoría las autoridades académicas sobre este idioma y escazamente > necesitan mis "iluminaciones." Al contrario, estoy suscrito porque soy > su humilde aprendíz :-). > > > Un cordial saludo y agradecimiento. > > Tlazocamatzin (esta bien esto?) > > Está bien, salvo el detallito del saltillo, que nos daría > "tlazohcamati." > > Saludos. > > Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 > 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 > Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu > Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From cipactonal at starmedia.com Sun Jan 26 01:37:13 2003 From: cipactonal at starmedia.com (Ignacio Silva) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 20:37:13 -0500 Subject: Cancelacion de proyecto. Message-ID: Listeros: Mediante la presente les informo de la siguiente nota: En el Archivo General de la Nacion, Mexico, se estaba desarrollando desde hace el a�o 2000, un proyecto para la busqueda, identificacion, digitalizacion y descripcion de documentos en lengua nahuatl del fondo documental Tierras. Este proyecto estaba siendo coordinado por mi, Ignacio Silva, solamente que a partir de agosto del a�o pasado se cancelo el proyecto debido a la falta de interes del Director del Archivo Historico Central y de la Direccion General de ese organismo. La falta de argumentos validos les hizo decir que "se le estaba dando demasiada importancia a esos documentos" e incluso se llego a decir "�para que sirven los documentos en nahuatl?". Es importante decir que el proyecto estaba llegando a la mitad, de hecho ya teniamos mas de mil quinientos volumenes revisados (de tres mil setecientos once). Los resultados los tengo en los informes que enviaba constantemente a la direccion del AGN. Para rematar el caso, a fines del a�o pasado me despidieron del Archivo, por lo cual, el proyecto queda definitivamente cancelado, a pesar de que la direccion del AGN, dice tener "mucho interes en el proyecto". Espero que haya alguien con el suficiente interes como para retomar este proyecto y no dejarlo a la mitad. La idea es tener la digitalizacion de esos documentos en CD, y asi poder ofrecerlos a los estudiosos de la lengua y no tengan que trasladarse hasta el Archivo General de la Nacion, Mexico, para consultarlos. Mil gracias por la atencion prestada a la presente. Ignacio Silva Cruz 1a cerrada de 20 de noviembre #17 Col. San Juan Ixhuatepec, Tlalnepantla, Estado de Mexico. C.P. 54180 tel. (52) 5714 4157 correo-e: cipactonal at starmedia.com _______________________________________________________________________________________________________ Obt�n gratis tu cuenta de correo en StarMedia Email. �Reg�strate hoy mismo!. http://www.starmedia.com/email From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Sun Jan 26 16:59:08 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 10:59:08 -0600 Subject: Cancelacion de proyecto. In-Reply-To: <20030126013709.194331A0F3@smtp.latinmail.com> Message-ID: Me sumo a la opinion de Yukitaka, pero ademas, como mexicano, me da mucha pena que existan quienes, ademas de mexicanos, esten encargados de preservar la riqueza historica de nuestros pueblos, y hagan todo lo contrario. Quien dijo "¿para que sirven...?" y quienes consideran como poco importante temas como el nahuatl, deberian avergonzarse por tener el puesto que tienen y si son mexicanos, tambien de considerarse como tales. On Saturday 25 January 2003 07:37 pm, Ignacio Silva wrote: > Listeros: > > Mediante la presente les informo de la siguiente nota: > > En el Archivo General de la Nacion, Mexico, se estaba desarrollando desde > hace el año 2000, un proyecto para la busqueda, identificacion, > digitalizacion y descripcion de documentos en lengua nahuatl del fondo > documental Tierras. Este proyecto estaba siendo coordinado por mi, Ignacio > Silva, solamente que a partir de agosto del año pasado se cancelo el > proyecto debido a la falta de interes del Director del Archivo Historico > Central y de la Direccion General de ese organismo. > > La falta de argumentos validos les hizo decir que "se le estaba dando > demasiada importancia a esos documentos" e incluso se llego a decir "¿para > que sirven los documentos en nahuatl?". > > Es importante decir que el proyecto estaba llegando a la mitad, de hecho ya > teniamos mas de mil quinientos volumenes revisados (de tres mil setecientos > once). Los resultados los tengo en los informes que enviaba constantemente > a la direccion del AGN. > > Para rematar el caso, a fines del año pasado me despidieron del Archivo, > por lo cual, el proyecto queda definitivamente cancelado, a pesar de que la > direccion del AGN, dice tener "mucho interes en el proyecto". > > Espero que haya alguien con el suficiente interes como para retomar este > proyecto y no dejarlo a la mitad. La idea es tener la digitalizacion de > esos documentos en CD, y asi poder ofrecerlos a los estudiosos de la lengua > y no tengan que trasladarse hasta el Archivo General de la Nacion, Mexico, > para consultarlos. > > Mil gracias por la atencion prestada a la presente. > > Ignacio Silva Cruz > 1a cerrada de 20 de noviembre #17 > Col. San Juan Ixhuatepec, Tlalnepantla, > Estado de Mexico. C.P. 54180 > tel. (52) 5714 4157 > correo-e: cipactonal at starmedia.com > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ >____________________________ Obtén gratis tu cuenta de correo en StarMedia > Email. ¡Regístrate hoy mismo!. http://www.starmedia.com/email From takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp Sun Jan 26 10:58:59 2003 From: takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp (Yukitaka Inoue Okubo) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 19:58:59 +0900 Subject: Cancelacion de proyecto. Message-ID: Ignacio, Me da muchísima pena la cancelación de tu proyecto. Me sorprendí que te dijeran que "se le estaba dando demasiada importancia" o "¿para que sirven...?" Son documentos de gran importancia no solo para el ámbito académico --para la historia de sociedades indígenas en la época colonial, por ejemplo--, sino también para muchos pueblos indígenas actuales --como lo son los Títulos Primordiales--. El asunto es gran pena para mí y para todos los investigadores y estudiantes sobre la historia de México, es algo que impide el futuro avance de estudios en el tema. Practicamente no puedo hacer nada desde el Lejano Oriente, pero espero que haya posibilidad de que se retome el proyecto y no dejarlo a la mitad. Yukitaka Inoue Okubo > Listeros: > > Mediante la presente les informo de la siguiente nota: > > En el Archivo General de la Nacion, Mexico, se estaba desarrollando desde hace el año 2000, un proyecto para la busqueda, identificacion, digitalizacion y descripcion de documentos en lengua nahuatl del fondo documental Tierras. Este proyecto estaba siendo coordinado por mi, Ignacio Silva, solamente que a partir de agosto del año pasado se cancelo el proyecto debido a la falta de interes del Director del Archivo Historico Central y de la Direccion General de ese organismo. > > La falta de argumentos validos les hizo decir que "se le estaba dando demasiada importancia a esos documentos" e incluso se llego a decir "¿para que sirven los documentos en nahuatl?". > > Es importante decir que el proyecto estaba llegando a la mitad, de hecho ya teniamos mas de mil quinientos volumenes revisados (de tres mil setecientos once). Los resultados los tengo en los informes que enviaba constantemente a la direccion del AGN. > > Para rematar el caso, a fines del año pasado me despidieron del Archivo, por lo cual, el proyecto queda definitivamente cancelado, a pesar de que la direccion del AGN, dice tener "mucho interes en el proyecto". > > Espero que haya alguien con el suficiente interes como para retomar este proyecto y no dejarlo a la mitad. La idea es tener la digitalizacion de esos documentos en CD, y asi poder ofrecerlos a los estudiosos de la lengua y no tengan que trasladarse hasta el Archivo General de la Nacion, Mexico, para consultarlos. > > Mil gracias por la atencion prestada a la presente. > > Ignacio Silva Cruz > 1a cerrada de 20 de noviembre #17 > Col. San Juan Ixhuatepec, Tlalnepantla, > Estado de Mexico. C.P. 54180 > tel. (52) 5714 4157 > correo-e: cipactonal at starmedia.com > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________ > Obtén gratis tu cuenta de correo en StarMedia Email. ¡Regístrate hoy mismo!. http://www.starmedia.com/email > > From takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp Sun Jan 26 23:53:49 2003 From: takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp (Yukitaka Inoue Okubo) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 08:53:49 +0900 Subject: Paleography resource? Message-ID: The next book has been useful to me. Agustin Millares Carlo & Jose Ignacio Mantecon, _Album de paleografia hispanoamericana de los siglos XVI y XVII_ Mexico, Instituto Panamericano de Geografia e Historia, 1955, 3 vols. Yukitaka Inoue O. From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Jan 27 04:56:05 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 23:56:05 -0500 Subject: Verbing #3 Message-ID: Don't worry about the meaning of the '#3' -- it is just to keep my records straight. I thought that nocniuhtzitzihuan might be interested in an organization of verbs formed off nouns in Nahuatl. It serves two purposes: 1) it speeds up learning the language by organizing related vocabulary; 2) it helps you "feel" the related meanings better. Verbing 3 words are built on a noun base (like all verbing derivations!!) and the suffixes are "-ihui" and "-ahui". Both suffixes mean 'to become (like the base noun)'. Best regards, Joe a:calli canoe, boat a:calihui it becomes grooved a:to:lli atole a:to:lihui it becomes soft calli house, space cacalihui it becomes hollow yahualli round pad yahualihui it becomes round caxitl bowl caxitl it becomes depressed, bowl-like chi:lli chile chichi:lihui it becomes red cicuilli waist cicuilihui it becomes thin co:lli something bent co:lihui it bends como:lli ravine como:lihui it forms a hollow tli:lli soot tli:lihui it becomes black cue:chtli something fine cue:chihui it becomes pulverized huacalli basket huacalihui it becomes hollowed huitolli bow huitolihui it arches mimilli cylinder, column mimilihui it becomes round nolli s.t. twisted nolihui it becomes twisted olo:lli ball olo:lihui it becomes round pazolli tangle pazolihui it comes tangled texa:lli coarse sand texa:lihui it becomes numerous tlahpalli effort, strength tlahpalihui he exerts effort xoctli olla xoquihui it becomes like an olla, stinks cototztli wrinkle cocototzahui he becomes paralyzed huitztli thorn huitzahui it becomes pointed pi:tztli s.t. hard, pit pi:tzahui it hardens quiquiztli trumpet quiquizahui it becomes perforated xipochtli hollow (n.) xixipochahui it forms hollows xolochtli wrinkle xolochahui it becomes wrinkled From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Jan 27 05:00:41 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:00:41 -0500 Subject: Verbing #5 Message-ID: Verbing #5 has a "-huia" suffix. It means 'to apply the base noun to the indicated object. (I note that I have been sloppy with vowel length marking, especially in the prefixes [which I set off with hyphens], so I apologize de antemano.) Joe a:cacuextli weir tla-a:cacuexhuia he uses a weir a:calli boat nin[o]-a:calhuia I boat for pleasure a:calli boat c-a:calhuia they take him off in a boat ahmo:lli soap plant m[o]-ahmolhuia they wash with soap ahhuatl thorn nech-ahhuahuia it pricks me a:matl paper m[o]-a:mahuia he is covered with paper amochitl tin nic-amochihuia I add tin to it atlan water place quim-atlanhuia he drowns them a:to:lli atole c-ato:lhuiah they give him atole a:toya:tl river nech-a:toya:huiah they throw me into the river a:xca:itl possession quimo-a:xca:huia he makes it his possession a:xin axin c-axhuiah they put axin in it a:xi:xtla:lli urinated soil nic-a:xi:xtla:lhuia I put urinated soil on it cacahuatl cacao nino-cacahuahuia I take cacao camana:lli joke nite-camana:lhuia I kid around ca:ca:xtli carrying frame qui-ca:ca:xhuia he carries st. in a c.f. chi:lli chile tic-chi:lhuiah we put chile on it chiquihuitl basket nic-chiquihuia I carry s.t. in a basket ciyacatl arm qui-ciyacahuia he carries st under his arm cochilo knife qui-cochilohuihque they knifed him oco:tzotl pine tar m[o]-oco:tzohuia pine resin is applied cua:cuahuitl horn nech-cua:cuahuia it gores me cuitlatl excrement nitla-cuitlahuia I fertilize eztli blood nic-ezhuia I cover it with blood huacalli basket tla-huacalhuiah they carry st. in cages huehpo:lli sister-in-law mo-huepolhuia he "lives" with his sister-in-law huitolli bow quintla-huitolhuiah they shoot them with bows ichcatl cotton niqu-ichcahuia I cover it with cotton i:xtli face, surface nitla-i:xhuia I level something mahpilli finger qui-mahpilhuia he points at her ma:tlatl net tla-ma:tlahuia he catches st. with a net mecatl cord tla-mecahuia he fastens st. with a cord molicpitl elbow nech-molicpihuia he elbows me mo:n-na:ntli mother-in-law mo-mo:n-na:nhuia he lives in concubinage with his mother-in-law nanacatl mushroom mo-nanacahuia he takes mushrooms nexa:yo:tl ash water qui-nexa:yo:huia he treats it with ash water nextli ash qui-nexhuia he puts ashes on it nohmah self, will mo-nohmahuia he acts of his own accord ochpa:hua:ztli broom te-ochpa:hua:zhuia he sweeps people away octli octli m[o]-ochuia he is affected by wine oco:tzotl pine pitch c-ocotzohuia he applies pine pitch to it o:lli rubber c-o:lhuiah they coat it with rubber olo:lli ball tech-olo:lhuiah they surround us omitl bone tla-omihuiah they burnish st. with a bone oquichtli male, man tla-oquichhuia she endures st. like a man o:zto:tl cave timo-o:zto:huiz you will hurl yourself into a cave piya:ztli tube nitla-piya:zhuia I drink st. with a tube quechtli neck tzontli hair nech-quechtzonhuiah they lasso me about the neck sebo fat, grease nitla-sebohuia I grease st. tamalli tamale mo-tamalhuiah they make tamales for themselves tapalcatl potsherd mo-tapacahuia it is polished with a potsherd tetl stone nitla-tehuia I pound st. te:ntli lip cualactli saliva, poison te-te:ncualachuia it injects venom in s.o. te:ntli xo:chitl flower te-te:nxochihuiani one who seduces with words te:ntli neuctli honey mo-te:nneuchuia he smears honey on his lips teo:tl calli house qui-teo:calhuihqueh they hurled him from a temple teo:tl cuitlatl excrement tla-teo:cuitlahuiah they gild st. teo:tl xa:lli sand nitla-teo:xa:lhuia I abrade st. with fine sand tepexitl crag nic-tepexihuia I throw him from a crag tepoztli iron, copper nitla-tepozhuia I chop st. tepoztli mecatl rope, cord niquin-tepozmecahuia I chain them up tepoztli mi:tl arrow qui-tepozmi:huiah they shoot him with an iron bolt (crossbow) te:tza:huitl omen quimo-te:tza:huia he takes it as an omen textli corn dough tla-texhuia he treats st. with dough te:zcatl mirror mo-te:zchuiah they see themselves in a mirror ti:zatl chalk nino-ti:zahuia I apply chalk to myself tla:catl person tecolo:tl owl tla:catecolo:tl devil te-tla:catecolo:huia he causes s.o. to be possessed tla:lli earth qui-tla:lhuia he mounds earth on it tletl fire quiquiztli trumpet quin-tlequiquizhuia he shoots them with a gun tli:lli soot nic-tli:lhuia I apply black to st. to:chtli rabbit ma:tlatl net tla-to:chma:tlahuia he snares rabbits tompiahtli deep basket tla-tompiahhuiah they carry st. in deep baskets tzinacan bat cuitlatl excrement tla-tzinacancuitlahuia he uses bat excrement glue tzontli hair nitla-tzonhuia nitla-tzohuia I snare st. tzontli nitlatla-tzonhuiz I will argue xi:cohtlii large bee cuitlatl nitla-xi:cohcuitlahuia I wax st. xo:chitl flower nite-xo:chihuia I bewitch people, I pervert people yo:lli heart ce:tl ice nino-yo:lce:huia I lose my anger zoquitl mud nic-zoquihuia I apply mud to it From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Jan 27 02:05:05 2003 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 20:05:05 -0600 Subject: Agradecimiento Message-ID: Estimados listeros: Estoy terminando de escribir mi tesis de doctorado en El Colegio de Michoac'an (Los otom'ies: cultura, lengua y comunicaci'on gr'afica), y aparte de citarles a ustedes en varias de las notas, les dediqu'e un p'arrafo en los agradecimientos. Les env'io este p'arrafo por el presente medio: ********************************************************* Los suscriptores a la lista de correo electr'onico Nahuat-l, entre ellos varios de los principales expertos en el idioma n'ahuatl, contribuyeron con sus sugerencias al an'alisis de algunas de las glosas en n'ahuatl que se encuentran en el Mapa de Huamantla y el C'odice de Huichapan, as'i como ciertas frases en el mismo idioma, relacionadas con el concepto de la escritura y la pintura. Fue especialmente 'util el apoyo proporcionado por Anthony Appleyard, R. Joe Campbell, Chichiltic Coyotl, Frances Karttunen, Mark David Morris, Sergio Romero, John F. Schwaller, Barry D. Sell y Alexis Wimmer. ********************************************************* Gracias por su apoyo. Un saludo, David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Jan 27 17:31:16 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:31:16 -0600 Subject: Other native languages Message-ID: MIXTEC LANGUAGE PROGRAM (dates, cost changes and new contact information) Where: Oaxaca, Mexico through San Diego State University. When: June 16-July 26, 2003 Description: San Diego State offers both an on-campus program and a summer intensive program in Mixteco.Ý The on-campus program focuses on the dialect of the Mixteca Baja, while the summer intensive offers dialects from the Mixteca Baja and Alta.Ý One of the primary purposes of this program is to provide training to students who will eventually work in public health, education, criminal justice, public administration, or other areas where there are unmet needs for Mixteco speakers. . Language courses are taught by native Mixtec speakers from the faculty of the Centro de Investigaciones y Estudios Superiores en AntropologÌa Social (CIESAS) in Oaxaca and from the Instituto TecnolÛgico de Oaxaca (ITO). In addition to language instruction, students will visit Mixteco speaking villages and attend lectures on Mixtec history and culture. Cost: $2000 (approximate, does not include transportation or room and board) Contact: Elizabeth S·enz-Ackerrmann, Center for Latin American Studies, Storm Hall 146, San Diego State University San Diego, California 92182-4446 (619) 594-1104 email: esaenz at mail.sdsu.edu KAQCHIKEL MAYA (change includes new contact information only) Where: Antigua (Guatemala) through Tulane University. When: June 23 ñ August 1 Description: The elementary course participation is limited to approximately 10 non-Kaqchikels and 12 Kaqchikel Maya. The language sessions are typically presented in the mornings and cultural activities in the afternoons. As part of the cultural activities, students are expected to carry out a limited research project with a Kaqchikel co-investigator. The course will begin in Antigua, Guatemala. Daily instruction includes small and large group language learning with Kaqchikel instructors. Course includes grammar analysis with linguistics, and cultural orientations with guest speakers from surrounding communities. The following courses will be offered during the program. Students have the option of taking either language-only for 3 credits or the 6-credit option: Beginning Kaqchikel Maya (3); Intermediate Kaqchikel Maya (3); Advanced Kaqchikel Maya (3); and Introductory Kaqchikel Language & Culture (6 Credits). Cost: $2,600 (three-credit option), $2,800 (six-credit option) Application Deadline: March 28 Contact: Dr. Judith M. Maxwell, Department of Anthropology Tulane University. New Orleans, Louisiana 70118-5698 or Deborah Ramil, Stone Center for Latin American Studies Summer Program Coordination Office, Caroline Richardson Building, Tulane University. email: dramill at tulane.edu, maxwell at mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu or walter.little at cwix.com Application available at: http://www.tulane.edu/~maxwell/oxlajujapp.htm http://www.tulane.edu/~maxwell/oxlajuj.htm BEGINNING AYMARA (change includes new information for FLAS aplicants) Where: University of Chicago. When: Summer Session 2003, June 23 ñ August 22 Description: The Center for Latin American Studies at the University of Chicago announces a 9-week intensive beginner's course in Aymara for Summer 2003. Course instructor Miguel Huanca uses a wide variety of authentic cultural materials, including film, literature, and music, along with his text Aymar Akhamawa and accompanying recorded dialogues. Students acquire proficiency in formal language structures, conversation, and reading and writing skills. The course is appropriate for master's, doctoral and advanced undergraduate students, particularly, though not exclusively, those in the fields of Andean anthropology, history, and contemporary politics, as well as students pursuing a concentration in linguistics. Classes meet 4 hours per day, Monday through Friday, for nine weeks for a total of 180 contact hours, the equivalent of a full-academic year program of intensive study. Summer FLAS grants (Title VI) may be used for this course. Registration deadline: May 30, 2003 (for non-University of Chicago students). Students are encouraged to apply as early as possible to ensure enrollment and explore funding options. Cost: Tuition: Estimated University of Chicago tuition for the three-course sequence totals $5,450. (There will be a reduced summer tuition rate to meet FLAS allowance.) Contact: University of Chicago Center for Latin American Studies University of Chicago, 5848 South University Ave., Kelly Hall 310 Chicago, IL 60637 Phone: (773) 702-8402 Email: clas at uchicago.edu Or Summer Session Office University of Chicago 5835 S. Kimbark Avenue, Judd Hall Room 207 Chicago, IL 60637 Phone: (773) 702-6033 Website: www.grahamschool.uchicago.edu INTENSIVE QUECHUA IN CUSCO, PERU (price change for non-credit option) Where: Escuela Andina de Postgrado, Cusco (Peru) through The University of Michigan. When: July 3 ñ August 16. Description: Three levels of intensive Southern Quechua will be taught: Intensive Beginning Quechua, Intensive Intermediate Quechua, and Intensive Advanced Quechua. Classes will meet intensively for eight weeks. Enrollment will be limited to 15 for each of the five levels. The program is open to all graduate and professional school students. A series of lectures on Quechua culture and history and an extensive program of excursions and cultural events will supplement the courses. Students may choose to take the course for University of Michigan credit by enrolling in the corresponding courses (LACS 471/472, 473/474, and 475/476), or may take the course without University credit by enrolling directly through Escuela Andina de Postgrado. The same academic criteria will apply to credit and non-credit students. Costs: Costs are based on estimates. Undergraduate: (Michigan resident) $1840, (non-resident) $5450. Graduate: (Michigan resident) $2980, (non-resident) $6025. Not-for-credit option: $1470. FLAS fellowships available through Latin American and Caribbean Studies cover full tuition plus a modest stipend; application due Feb. 1. Deadline for applications: May 1, 2003 Contact: David Frye, Latin American and Caribbean Studies, lacs at umich.edu (734) 647-0844 Website: http://www.umich.edu/~iinet/lacs/ Organizers: Latin American and Caribbean Studies, University of Michigan (in conjunction with the Escuela Andina de Postgrado, Centro BartolomÈ de las Casas, Cusco, Peru.) BEGINNING INTENSIVE GUARANÕ (can accommodate graduate students in program) Where: AsunciÛn, Paraguay through the Summer Seminar Abroad for Spanish Teachers program at Ohio State University When: July 7-26, 2003 Description: This is a two-week intensive course in basic GuaranÌ incorporated in the annual Summer Seminar Abroad for Spanish Teachers program through Ohio State University. Program participants have the option to enroll either in a graduate Spanish linguistics course on Languages in Contactî or an intensive course in beginning GuaranÌ, taught by native speakers at the language school Idipar. Program participants will be lodged in hotels in AsunciÛn. Excursions around AsunciÛn and the surrounding countryside will also be offered. Cost: $1,899.00 Application Deadline: March 31, 2003 Contact Information: Terrell Morgan at Ohio State University, Department of Spanish and Portuguese, 226 Cunz Hall, 1841 Millikin Road, Columbus, OH 43210. (614) 292-9555. Website: http://sppo.ohio-state.edu/faculty/morgan.3/ssat03.htm From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Jan 27 19:27:49 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:27:49 -0600 Subject: cualli tonalli. Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 22:50:51 -0600 Subject: Re: cualli tonalli. From: "Ricardo J. Salvador" To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu On Friday, January 24, 2003, at 05:16 PM, Alexander Wallace wrote: Que tal Alexander, Primero, al grano de tus preguntas: > Lo que me llama mucho la atencion es la manera en que pronuncias el > nocniuhtzine, casi me suena a /nocniucfine/ (de antemano te digo que > soy todo > un novato en esto)... Como se pronuncia la H ahi? y la tz? La "h" es el famoso "saltillo." Tu forma de pronunciarlo dependerá del dialecto que ensayes. El sonido "clásico" es una interrupción literal del aliento, como quien dice una breve ausencia de sonido en un flujo de sonido. Sin embargo, en varios dialectos modernos esto ya se ha convertido en sonido, y es la breve aspiración que detectase, semejante a una leve "jota" del castellano. Creo que hay por lo menos dos razones por las cuales el sonido de la grabación no te fué claro. El primero y mas obvio es que la grabación es de baja calidad, ni hablar. Pudiera prometerte una actualizacíon mas nítida pero es mejor anunciarlo ya que esté hecho y no comprometerme a la ligera. Y segundo, es un sonido que no tiene contraparte en castellano y por lo tanto tal vez difícil de interpretar. Afortunadamente no es difícil producir el sonido, y para esto bastan unos cuantos modelos auditivos a seguir (este si es un caso en el cual el apoyo de una comunidad de hablantes sería valioso.) Lo otro es que este es un sonido que no siempre se captura en la grafía castellana, y aún cuando se hace se hace de formas variadas, de modo que en realidad hay que aprender cuando y como aparece para poder compensar la gran varianza que existe en su representación gráfica. El sonido de la "tz" no encierra mayor misterio. Pronuncialo como pronunciaras lo mismo en castellano. > Lei en tu pagina la interezanticima explicacion de como ha de > pronunciarse la > TL y me pregunto si hay algun secreto similar para las otras T del > nahuatl Para un hablante del castellano sólo la "tl" presenta dificultades por no tener contraparte directa en este idioma. Las otras dos "t" ("t" y "tz") las podrás pronunciar tranquilamente siguiendo en forma fiel la pronunciación castellana. > y lo mismo para la CH (que no se si ha de usarse fuerte como se > acostumbra, > digamos en la palabra CHAMUCO, o como los Chihuahuences dicen > Chihuahua). Por lo general la "ch" indica la che fuerte del castellano. El sonido suave de la "che chihuahence" que mencionas es un sonido muy importante del nahuatl, y por lo general se indica con la letra "x" (digo por lo general porque como es de esperarse por el hecho de que la x ha cumplido varias funciones en el castellano a través de sus épocas, se encuentran muchos usos idiosincráticos de la letra y hay que tener criterio del nahuatl para interpretarla correctamente en ciertos casos.) > Veo tambien con agrado (pues me gusta el sonido) que casi siempre se > le da a la H > un suave sonido de j (gutural?). Aunque entiendo que a veces es muda, > aunque > no me queda aun claro cuando. Espero que la breve explicación anterior del saltillo y sus variantes dialectales modernas te aclare un poco el tema. Ojo que el sonido de la "j gutural" que aludes es un sonido fuerte que se produce en la garganta (como en la última sílaba de "Heinrich" en alemán.) No hay que confundir a este sonido con el saltillo (o aspiración, según tu modelo dialectal.) > Me pregunto si son esos efectos en la pronunciacion, o mi falta de > agudeza > auditiva, o una combinacion lo que hace que me suene tan distinto de > lo que > you lo hubiera pronunciado sin antecedentes reales de la phonologia > nahuatl? Tal vez la combinación, pero "tu agudeza auditiva" no puede compensar la mala grabación que has estado usando. A pesar de este obstáculo creo que con tus preguntas haz indentificado todos los sonidos claves que habrás de dominar para mascar bien al nahuatl, con la excepción de la "L" geminada, como en las palabras "pilli" y "calli." Este sonido es como una "l gorda" ;-), o una "L" de larga duración, y no la "LL" del casteLLano. Mira, para pagarte un poco el haberte desviado con los pininos de mis primeras grabaciones digitales, te recomiendo que te apoyes de las varias grabaciones que tengo enlazadas en la hoja que enlista los varios recursos para el aprendizaje nahuatl. La calidad de tales grabaciones es mejor y aparte te ofrecen la ventaja de capturar los sonidos que producen los hablantes nativos del idioma. Aquí te mando un sitio en donde el profesor W. J. Taffe de la Universidad Estatal de Plymouth (New Hampshire) presenta algunas locuciones de un nativo-hablante del valle de Puebla recitando una poesía y dando una bienvenida formal: http://oz.plymouth.edu/~wjt/Nahuatl/nahuatl.html Y, por último, una aclaración respecto al favor que me haces: > Me tomo la libertad de ponerle cc hacia la lista nahuatera para > permitir que otros se iluminen con tus respuestas. Agradezco las flores ;-), pero los suscritos a esta lista son en su mayoría las autoridades académicas sobre este idioma y escazamente necesitan mis "iluminaciones." Al contrario, estoy suscrito porque soy su humilde aprendíz :-). > Un cordial saludo y agradecimiento. > Tlazocamatzin (esta bien esto?) Está bien, salvo el detallito del saltillo, que nos daría "tlazohcamati." Saludos. Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From bcoon at montana.edu Mon Jan 27 20:37:50 2003 From: bcoon at montana.edu (Coon, Brad) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:37:50 -0700 Subject: Paleography resource? Message-ID: Many thanks to all of you who suggested sources. Brad Coon Reference Librarian The Libraries-Montana State University bcoon at montana.edu (406) 994-6026 -----Original Message----- From: Yukitaka Inoue Okubo [mailto:takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp] Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 4:54 PM To: Coon, Brad Cc: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu Subject: Re: Paleography resource? The next book has been useful to me. Agustin Millares Carlo & Jose Ignacio Mantecon, _Album de paleografia hispanoamericana de los siglos XVI y XVII_ Mexico, Instituto Panamericano de Geografia e Historia, 1955, 3 vols. Yukitaka Inoue O. From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Jan 27 23:31:54 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:31:54 -0500 Subject: Verbing 1 Message-ID: Verbing 1a and 1b The verbing suffixes (1a) "-ti" and (1b) "-ya" both mean 'become' and they are intransitive. They both take a "-lia" causative which is identical in form to the benefactive suffix "-lia". When the causative is added to "-ya", the "-ya" is deleted. "-ti" and "-ya" may both be added together to a noun, always in that order, and usually spelled "-tia". -ti a:cah someone a:cahti he becomes someone a:huiani harlot a:huianiti she becomes a harlot a:huilhue:hueh wicked old man a:huilhue:huehti he becomes a "dirty old man" a:huitl aunt a:huitiz she will be an aunt amante:catl feather worker amante:cati he becomes a feather worker ahtleh nothing n-ahtlehtiz I will become nothing calpixqui house steward calpixcati* he becomes a house steward caquiztli sound caquizti it is heard cha:lchihuitl green stone cha:chihuitih they become like green stones * -ca and -qui (in nouns of this sort) are in alternation; -qui appears in word-final position and -ca appears in "protected" position (i.e., inside a word). cuahuitl tree pilli child cuappilli young tree cuappilti it becomes a young tree cua:uhtli eagle ti-cua:uhti you become an eagle warrior cui:cani singer cui:caniti he becomes a singer hue:hueh old man hue:huehti he becomes an old man huentli offering huentiz it will become an offering icni:uhtli friend t-icni:uhtiz you will become a friend icno:tl orphan oquichtli male, man icno:oquichtli widower n-icno:oquichti I become a widower itlah something itlahtiz he will become something ilamatl old woman ilamatizqueh they will become old women itzcuintli dog itzcuinti she becomes furious machiztli knowledge machizti it becomes known mahuiztli wonder, awe mahuizti he is esteemed ma:lli captive ti-malti you become a captive micca:huah one who has a dead person miccahuahti he is bereaved na:ntli mother na:ntiz she will become a mother nelli truth nelti it comes to pass no:ntli mute person no:ntiz he will become speechless o:ce:lo:tl ocelot t-o:ce:lo:ti you become an ocelot warrior omitl bone n-oomiti I become thin oquichtli male, man oquichti he becomes a warrior o:tztli pregnant woman o:tzti she becomes pregnant pipiyolin wild bee pipiyolti he becomes like a wild bee quimichin mouse ni-quimichti I become a mouse tahtli father ti-tahtiz you will become a father teo:tl god teo:t he became a god te:uctli lord ti-te:uctiz you will rule teuhtli dust teuhti it becomes dust tla:catl person tla:cati she is born tla:cohtli slave tla:cohtiz he will labor tla:lli earth tla:lti it becomes earth tlahtli uncle tlahtizqueh they will become uncles xi:cohtli large bee ti-xi:cohtli you become a bee xo:coyo:tl youngest sibling xo:coyo:tiz he will be the youngest child xolopihtli stupid person ni-xolopihtiz I will be stupid ya:o:tl enemy ya:o:tiz he will battle zoquitl mud zoquiti it becomes mud -ya ce:tl ice cece:ya it becomes cold iztatl salt iztaya it turns white xocotl st. sour, fruit xocoya it sours hue:i big hue:(i)ya it grows both -ti and -ya a:tl water a:tia it melts cualli good cualtia he is good cue:chtli st. fine, tiny cue:chtia it is pulverized etl bean etia it becomes heavy i:tztli obsidian i:ztia it becomes cold maza:tl deer maza:tiz he will become a deer o:lli rubber o:ltia it becomes resilient piya:ztli tube piya:ztia it becomes slender pinolli pinole pinoltia it becomes like pinole tepoztli iron, copper ni-tepoztia I become hardened in evil From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Jan 27 23:32:58 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:32:58 -0500 Subject: Verbing 5a Message-ID: Verbing 5a There is an '-oa' suffix that forms intransitive verbs from nouns, meaning "to use or produce the base noun." a:matl paper ahtlapalli leaf, wing a:mahtlapaloa it forms leaves a:yacachtli rattle n-a:yacachtli I "play" a rattle ayohtli gourd tamalli tamale n-ayohtamaloa I make gourd tamales camana:lli jest (n.) camana:loah they jest capolin cherry, berry cacapoloa it produces berries camatl mouth challi jaw camachaloa he opens his mouth caxitl bowl caxoz she will use a bowl chihcha saliva piya:ztli tube ni-chihchipiazoa I spit a stream tlaxcalli tortilla tlacaloah they make tortillas tamalli tamale tamaloa she makes tamales maxalli crotch, fork maxaloa it forms crotches (tree) ma:itl hand tlaxcalli tortilla mamatlaxcaloa it claps its hands (referring to a butterfly and using the metaphor of tortilla-making-clapping) ma:itl hand pilli child mahpilli finger mahpiloah they point pi:tztli whistle (n.) pi:tzoa he whistles ma:itl hand pi:tztli whistle mapi:tzoa he whistles with his hand nacaztli ear ni-nacazoa I listen ma:itl hand tletl fire quiquiztli trumpet matlequiquizoa he fires a portable gun tepona:ztli two-toned drum tepona:zozqueh they will play a drum tianquiztli marketplace tianquizoa he deals tlantli tooth quiquiztli trumpet tlanquiquizoa he whistles with his teeth tlacua:lli food, meal tlacualoah they prepare food From susana at dragotto.com Tue Jan 28 08:49:37 2003 From: susana at dragotto.com (Susana) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 00:49:37 -0800 Subject: escuela para obstetricas? Message-ID: Estimados amigos, El proximo sabado tengo que dar una pequena platica sobre la condicion de la mujer Azteca, y tengo una duda que mucho les agradeceria me ayudaran a colmar. En algunos libros que tratan la vida diaria de los Aztecas se asevera que solo las mujeres podian ejercer la profesion de obstetrica. Dado que en los varios informes sobre las materias que se impartian en el Calmecac femenino no se hace ninguna referencia a la obstetricia, quisiera saber EN DONE aprendian el oficio. Habia alguna escuela especial? Agradezco de antemano su experta ayuda. Pueden escribir tambien en ingles, si asi lo desean. Susana Moraleda From CBodif9907 at aol.com Tue Jan 28 13:58:23 2003 From: CBodif9907 at aol.com (CBodif9907 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:58:23 EST Subject: Unsubscribe Message-ID: It's been fun lurking, but please remove me from the nahuat-L e-mail list. Thanks so much. cab -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From menchaca at stsci.edu Fri Jan 3 21:35:30 2003 From: menchaca at stsci.edu (menchaca at stsci.edu) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 16:35:30 -0500 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? Message-ID: I came upon this site recently and thought it might be of interest to members of the list. -g nahuatl.info for general information http://nahuatl.info/nahuatl.htm "The Nahuatl Tlahtokalli at nahuatl.info is an online Nahuatl language learning center initiated by graduate-level students Citlalin Xochime (Star Blossoms) & Itztli Ehecatl (Obsidian Wind). This project began in the xiuitl (year) Yei-Tochtli (3 rabbit), in the metztli (month) of Teotleko (when the energy is united) of the Mexica calendar, a time also known as October 2002 according to the Julian calendar. We simply wanted a place to facilitate our understanding of Nahuatl culture while developing fluency of the language to such a degree that we may comfortably visit Nahuatl speaking villages. To attain these goals, we reserved an entire domain with 250 MB of storage for maintaining an interactive message board, scheduled weekly classes in our chat room, review sessions, quizzes, and sound clips of Nahuatl speakers." From karttu at nantucket.net Sat Jan 4 22:47:14 2003 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 17:47:14 -0500 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: <030103163530.2160331c@stsci.edu> Message-ID: It appears to me that Citlalin Xochime and Itztli Ehecatl [sic] need to learn more Nahuatl morphology before they presume to teach or quiz other would-be Nahuatl learners. From ehlegorreta at prodigy.net.mx Sun Jan 5 00:06:39 2003 From: ehlegorreta at prodigy.net.mx (Ernesto Herrera Legorreta) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 18:06:39 -0600 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: According to some well-regarded minds from the past, the possession of any significant amount of knowledge turns instantly from blessing into character defect the moment a person loses her humility. -- Frances Karttunen wrote on 2003.01.04 : " It appears to me that Citlalin Xochime and Itztli Ehecatl [sic] need to learn more Nahuatl morphology before they presume to teach or quiz other would-be Nahuatl learners. " From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Sun Jan 5 18:12:06 2003 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:12:06 -0500 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: <030103163530.2160331c@stsci.edu> Message-ID: I'm always happy to see interest in Nahuatl. This site's overview of the various Nahuatl dialects is very nice and informative. But adding to Fran's rejoinder, I should add that there are a couple of important mistakes at the website's homepage. The phrase "Nahuatl is an ancient language spoken by our Mexica/Azteca, Tolteca, Olmeca..." is incorrect. I'm surprised to find such a statement. Of the peoples listed here only the Mexica and Azteca spoke Nahuatl. Also, the phrase "Hopi is almost identical to Nahuatl..." is a mistake. Hopi is indeed related to Nahuatl but can hardly be termed "almost identical". Best, Michael McCafferty On Fri, 3 Jan 2003 menchaca at stsci.edu wrote: > I came upon this site recently and thought it might be of interest > to members of the list. > -g > > nahuatl.info > > for general information > http://nahuatl.info/nahuatl.htm > > "The Nahuatl Tlahtokalli at nahuatl.info is an online Nahuatl language learning > center initiated by graduate-level students Citlalin Xochime (Star Blossoms) > & Itztli Ehecatl (Obsidian Wind). This project began in the xiuitl (year) > Yei-Tochtli (3 rabbit), in the metztli (month) of Teotleko (when the energy > is united) of the Mexica calendar, a time also known as October 2002 > according to the Julian calendar. We simply wanted a place to facilitate > our understanding of Nahuatl culture while developing fluency of the language > to such a degree that we may comfortably visit Nahuatl speaking villages. > To attain these goals, we reserved an entire domain with 250 MB of storage > for maintaining an interactive message board, scheduled weekly classes in > our chat room, review sessions, quizzes, and sound clips of Nahuatl speakers." > > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu "When you eventually see through the veils to how things really are, you will keep saying again and again, "This is certainly not like we thought it was". --Rumi From Huaxyacac at aol.com Sun Jan 5 20:12:25 2003 From: Huaxyacac at aol.com (Huaxyacac at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:12:25 EST Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? Message-ID: In a message dated 1/5/2003 8:13:14 AM Hawaiian Standard Time, mmccaffe at indiana.edu writes: > The phrase "Nahuatl is an > ancient language spoken by our Mexica/Azteca, Tolteca, Olmeca..." is > incorrect. I'm surprised to find such a statement. Of the peoples listed > here only the Mexica and Azteca spoke Nahuatl. Just out of curiosity, what language do you believe the Tolteca spoke, if not Nahuatl? Cheers, Alec Christensen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Jan 6 06:17:53 2003 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 01:17:53 -0500 Subject: FW: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: <33537.12.254.209.145.1041827383.squirrel@www.nahuatl.info> Message-ID: From: Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:29:43 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Re: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? We are poor graduate students, using a few Nahuatl coursework resources, and our own money to maintain the nahuatl.info website. We are certainly NO EXPERTS - in fact, we are beginner students ourselves (as if we need to inform you of this). Mainly, we offer Nahuatl study in an online format. We don't have the money to take expensive Nahuatl courses at any U.S. university - and we certainly don't have the money to travel to Mexico and take real Nahuatl classes. What we do have is pride and a desire to learn what has been robbed from us (our language and culture) as the result of colonial invaders. We're not out to impress Amerikan academic institutions, rather - we aim to be able to visit Nahuatl speaking communities - and to communicate with our people - whether that communication is poorly structured or not - at least we are trying to do something positive for our beloved culture. I have your analytical dictionary - and I try to read from it everyday - as well as the other Nahuatl resources that I have. So please, offer any helpful resources or references to us, rather than your criticism. Citlalin Xochime From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Jan 6 06:36:57 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 01:36:57 -0500 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: <10d.1da7b93f.2b49eba9@aol.com> Message-ID: I think that this discussion could be of interest and value to two groups: those of Nahuat-l and those of itztliehecatl at geocities.com. Some of the discussions may turn out to be of more interest than value if we all think like most people do about language: namely, my way is better and the most important reason is because it is what I learned first (the other reasons? -- well, I don't have any really substantive ones...). I sympathize with the desire to spread knowledge about Nahuatl. I am familiar with the enthusiasm that the language arouses in one. I have often said (with no chauvinistic motives) that if a Great Language Engineer sat down at His table and set out to design a beautiful clockwork language system, it would end up looking just like Nahuatl. I have also noted that most people who ever get bitten by the Nahuatl bug never totally get over their fever. The interest lives on. I hope that it is obvious that my remarks are meant in a constructive way. And naturally, most of what I take the trouble to write needs to concentrate on *improvement*, not head-nodding on everything that I agree with. A basic choice that we all make in our lessons and materials about Nahuatl is the orthography. On the Nahuatl Tlahtokalli website (hereafter NT), they say "... these lessons is NOT the classical form but the phonetics [sic] for. The classical form of Nahuatl is severly [sic] outdate and few people speak ... form today." I have thought about the spelling issue for years and it seems to me that the choice most people make is the way they chose their political parties or their religion -- it is seldom a matter of what advantages are offered by one system or the other. It is more often decided by one's early environment, perhaps a declaration by a teacher or a group feeling concerning tradition (or breaking with tradition). My own first written records (thick files of them) are filled with 'k', 'w', 'c-hachek', etc. I approached the dialect of Tepoztlan (and outlying Santa Catarina), Morelos with a tape recorder, a pad of yellow paper, and no regard for any possible body of related language material. However, after a whole summer in Tepoztlan and returning to my home library, I can be excused for my next act of over-exuberance -- I opened the overflowing treasures of: 1) Molina's 1571 dictionaries and 2) Dibble and Anderson's text and translation of the Florentine Codex. If time had been short during the summer (and the flesh too weak to extend the work days), here was a way to continue penetrating the language! But I *did* have to face the difference in orthography -- Molina didn't use my 'k w kw s ts...etc.' -- he did a natural and common thing -- he simply adapted his Spanish spelling system (ignoring long vowels and glottal stops), as did Sahagun with the "Florentine Codex" (with considerably more irregularity). But it was easy to read and I soon found myself writing with 'qu' instead of 'k'. When I moved to 'qu', I put myself in touch with a large body of material which has been recorded since the arrival of the Spaniards. If I had stuck with 'k', all that rich body of text would look "quaint" to me. If I were designing materials that I hoped would be helpful to Spanish speakers (some of them possible monolingual), I would use the 'qu' (and the spelling that goes with it) in order to reduce impediments in learning the important things. to be continued..... Best regards with your endeavors, Joe (Ce:ncah Xo:chichil) From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Mon Jan 6 08:15:48 2003 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 08:15:48 -0000 Subject: Nahuatl textbooks; dialects Message-ID: What progress has there been in forthcoming Nahuatl textbooks since July 2001 (Andrews's books; Molina translated into English; etc)? I have been busy with other things for much of the time since. If someone speaks in Classical Nahuatl, how well can modern Nahuatl dialect speakers understand him? Citlalyani. From mmontcha at oregonvos.net Mon Jan 6 09:54:43 2003 From: mmontcha at oregonvos.net (Matthew Montchalin) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 01:54:43 -0800 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, r. joe campbell wrote: | But I *did* have to face the difference in orthography -- Molina didn't |use my 'k w kw s ts...etc.' -- he did a natural and common thing -- he |simply adapted his Spanish spelling system (ignoring long vowels and |glottal stops), Perhaps you will explain why adopting the Spanish spelling system strikes you as a natural and common thing? |as did Sahagun with the "Florentine Codex" (with considerably more |irregularity). But it was easy to read and I soon found myself writing |with 'qu' instead of 'k'. For those of us with little or no exposure to Spanish's orthography, I am not so sure it will be an 'easy' thing to chin up and plod through. | When I moved to 'qu', I put myself in touch with a large body of |material which has been recorded since the arrival of the Spaniards. This seems to be the most telling argument in favor of Spanish's orthography. And you seem to be suggesting that the body of material is so vast that it will never be regularized with the 'k' and 'kw' orthography. |If I had stuck with 'k', all that rich body of text would look |"quaint" to me. Are you saying it is impractical - if not impossible - to write a computer program to translate the spellings from Nahuatl to Nawatl? | If I were designing materials that I hoped would be helpful to |Spanish speakers (some of them possible monolingual), I would use |the 'qu' (and the spelling that goes with it) in order to reduce |impediments in learning the important things. But you are presupposing a Spanish-speaking audience to receive your preferred spelling system. If you start your argument with a chip on your shoulder, it is that much harder to put some other chip there. From jrader at merriam-webster.com Mon Jan 6 14:26:05 2003 From: jrader at merriam-webster.com (Jim Rader) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:26:05 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl etymology of "Olmec" Message-ID: Seeing that the recent reaction to the Nahuatl.info website has everyone on the list wide awake, I thought I would forward the following query from Alan Hartley (with his permission), which appeared on the electronic newsletter of SSILA (Society for the Study of the Indigenous Languages of the Americas). Mr. Hartley has since informed me that he received replies from Fran Karttunen and Bill Bright. If anyone else has anything of interest to say, I would be curious as well. Jim Rader Nahuatl etymology of "Olmec" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >From Alan H. Hartley (ahartley at d.umn.edu) 20 Dec 2002: I am a consultant on American Indian ethnonyms for the OED. In reviewing the proposed OED entries OLMEC and OLMECA (primarily for the proper sense assignment of the various English citations), I thought it would be wise also to solicit expert opinion on the etymology. The recent stages are clear--Sp. Olmeca < Nahuatl olmecah (sg. form olmecatl)--but on the gloss of the Nahuatl name as 'people of the land of rubber' and its derivation from olman 'land of rubber' (< olli 'rubber') the consensus is less solid. As I'm not equipped to etymologize in Nahuatl, I wonder if there's someone who could help. Also, early attestations of the name are often in juxtaposition or composition with the name Xical(l)anca. Can anyone tell me the earliest occurrence of the name (as olmeca or ulmeca) in either the simple or the composite form? --Alan Hartley Duluth, Minnesota (ahartley at d.umn.edu) From mmccaffe at indiana.edu Mon Jan 6 14:46:43 2003 From: mmccaffe at indiana.edu (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:46:43 -0500 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, r. joe campbell wrote: > | But I *did* have to face the difference in orthography -- Molina didn't > |use my 'k w kw s ts...etc.' -- he did a natural and common thing -- he > |simply adapted his Spanish spelling system (ignoring long vowels and > |glottal stops), > > Perhaps you will explain why adopting the Spanish spelling system strikes > you as a natural and common thing? > I can't speak for Joe or anyone, but from my experience it's very *useful* to have the Spanish spelling system under your belt as it opens up a universe of dictionaries, grammars and texts. It's the perfect key. In my Algonquian work I use strictly IPA symbols. It's good to know your way around different orthographies. In early historic North America the Jesuit and Recollect missionaries used a digraph that looks a lot like the number 8 to represent a whole host of somewhat related sounds that occurred in the native languages. For example, in the recordings of the Miami-Illinois language, in word-initial position, this orthographic symbol can represent /w-/, sometimes /o:w-/ before a vowel, and /o-/ ~ /u-/ before a consonant. In intervocalic position it stands for /-w-/, sometimes /-o(:)w-/. Between consonants that are not followed by /w/ and a following vowel it stands for either /o(:)w/ - ~ /u(:)-/. When it appears between two consonants,the glyph represents /-o(:)-/ ~ /-u(:)-/. And in word-final position, 8 typically represents /-o(:)/ ~ /-u(:)/. ( the sign : = vowel length ) Depending on what you're doing and what you want, knowing other orthographies can be very useful. > |as did Sahagun with the "Florentine Codex" (with considerably more > |irregularity). But it was easy to read and I soon found myself writing > |with 'qu' instead of 'k'. > > For those of us with little or no exposure to Spanish's orthography, > I am not so sure it will be an 'easy' thing to chin up and plod > through. I teach Nahuatl. It takes even the slowest learners about two minutes to learn the old Spanish orthography. I had a woman in my class last semester who did not have any language "talent". But she had a desire to learn Nahuatl since some of her ancestors had spoken it. She learned the orthography in a day. It's basically straight forward "continental" spelling with a few changes. Very simple to learn. No biggy/ > > | When I moved to 'qu', I put myself in touch with a large body of > |material which has been recorded since the arrival of the Spaniards. > > This seems to be the most telling argument in favor of Spanish's > orthography. And you seem to be suggesting that the body of material > is so vast that it will never be regularized with the 'k' and 'kw' > orthography. Ah. Joe does make this point. Ok. Right, Matthew. It's so huge nobody will ever *want* to sit down and piddle with the orthography. What it boils down to is this: you gotta know both the old and the modern to be a successful learner of the entire chronological spectrum of Nahuatl. > > |If I had stuck with 'k', all that rich body of text would look > |"quaint" to me. > > Are you saying it is impractical - if not impossible - to write a > computer program to translate the spellings from Nahuatl to Nawatl? > Since I'm not a computer maven, I'll bow out on this one. I imagine you could, but why? It's not a perfect analogy-- and I can certain understand, say, translating Shakespeare into 21st century Bronx English, but don't you think it's also nice to have good old Wm. around as well to enrich things. > | If I were designing materials that I hoped would be helpful to > |Spanish speakers (some of them possible monolingual), I would use > |the 'qu' (and the spelling that goes with it) in order to reduce > |impediments in learning the important things. > > But you are presupposing a Spanish-speaking audience to receive > your preferred spelling system. If you start your argument with > a chip on your shoulder, it is that much harder to put some other > chip there. > Well, now I can speak for Joe. There ain't no chip. So, your point is moot. Best, Michael > > Michael McCafferty 307 Memorial Hall Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 mmccaffe at indiana.edu "When you eventually see through the veils to how things really are, you will keep saying again and again, "This is certainly not like we thought it was". --Rumi From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Jan 6 20:54:47 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:54:47 -0500 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ...continued (read all this with the introductory phrase: "I may be wrong about this (particularly not knowing the dialect in question), but...") [Further, these comments are offered in the spirit of constructive criticism.] When we learn modern Nahuatl, since it has split into many varieties (some people would say that every town has its own dialect), it is a good idea to be explicit about what area your material comes from. I noticed in the vocabulary list at Nahuatl Tlahtokalli that the dialect used seemed to preserve syllable-final 'h' (tahtli, nehnemi), but there were many words where it was lacking (e.g., mitotiani, zitli). Another problem with 'h': 'yakatzotzomaktli' for 'yakatzotzomahtli' (handkerchief). 'kuezpallin' is not a likely form. Double-l ('ll') is (almost) always *formed* in Nahuatl (by l+tl or l+y) and the absolutive noun suffix here is '-in'. Also, the 'z' is in doubt -- although 'tz' becomes 'z' in syllable-final position in many dialects, the vocabulary on the website contains words with syllable-final 'tz', indicating that this dialect doesn't do that. 'Mopampa' and 'ipampa' are given with the meanings 'for you' and 'for him, her, it', respectively. Since '-pampa' means 'because', this looks like a translation of 'por ti' -- 'because of you' (not something intended for you). 'Kalakia' is given with the meaning 'put', giving the reader the impression that he could 'kalakia' something *on* the ground, but 'kalakia' means to 'put *in*, insert'; just putting is expressed with 'tlalia'. I really doubt that 'go out' and 'throw' are 'kitza' and 'tlatza', respectively. They are more likely to be 'kiza' and 'tlaza' (as they are in all dialects I know). This would eliminate the need for a statement of irregularity in the grammar that says that 'tz' becomes 'z' at the end of a word in the past tense. kiza he goes out okiz he went out kitlaza she throws it okitlaz she threw it Further, 'tz' doesn't become 'z' at the end of a word anyway: kipitza he blows it okipitz he blew it It is dangerous to add the non-specific object 'tla-'to verb stems or to sub from nouns derived from verbs. In the glossary, It is dangerous to either add or subtract the non-specific object 'tla-' from verb stems or from nouns derived from verbs. In the glossary, 'tlalnamiki' is given as 'think, imagine, reflect', hiding an 'i' from the learner -- possibly tempting him into thinking that the following is correct: niktlalnamiki* I think it But the stem is '-ilnamiki', the correct form being: nikilnamiki The opposite occurs in: kualchichiua to cook (the 'tla-' of tlakualli is not removable) [from 'tlakualli' (food) + 'chichiua' (prepare)] koualiztli merchandise ('tlakoualiztli' can't lose its 'tla-') There seems to be a serious problem in the spelling of words with 'tz' and 'z' (in addition to 'kiza' and 'tlaza' mentioned above). Correct Incorrect azkatl atzkatl eztli etztli iztak itztak There are probably more of these and attention to the issue would clean up a lot of words in one swell foop. In the opposite direction: Correct Incorrect tlalpitzaliztli tlalpizaliztli (from tla-il-pitza-liz-tli 'act of blowing something') A simple misprint: lnaitl for maitl (arm). In focusing on the problem of people possibly pronouncing 'll' as a [y] as in Spanish, an erroneous piece of advice is given to the effect that 'll' is pronounced as one 'l'. In fact, in most dialects, 'll' is pronounced *longer* than single 'l'. There is contrast in length between: tlalli earth, ground kitlalia he places it Rather than wear you out with more examples (as if I hadn't already), I will cease and desist at this point. Best regards, Joe (Ce:ncah Xo:chichil) p.s. #1: What dialect do the lessons come from? p.s. #2: Am I mixed up or should 'Tlahtocalli' be 'Tlahtolcalli'? From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Jan 6 21:39:30 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:39:30 -0500 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? Message-ID: >Are you saying it is impractical - if not impossible - to write a >computer program to translate the spellings from Nahuatl to Nawatl? There are two problems with this suggestion: 1. The humongous amount of literature available to potential readers of Nahuatl would have to be made machine readable or it couldn't be put through a possible computer program. 2. The spelling system of Nahuatl (as improved by Carochi to handle the glottal stop and long vowels and made available to a wide public in works by Andrews and Karttunen) is *regular*, but this just means that it can be read from print to voice (and vice versa) in a trustworthy way. This does not address the question of convertibility. On that question, a friend of mine and I independently wrote several programs to convert a large text to another orthography. He is a professional programmer and I have been a novice programmer for 35 years. We determined that the shape of Nahuatl words will allow one set of shapes to be modified correctly by one algorithm, but that algorithm will give garbage on another set of shapes. The program that gives proper attention to the second set of shapes will produce contrary results in the first set. The answer is to do the conversion with a program that will maximize the correct results -- and then clean up the remainder over a period of years by hand, at times resorting to morphological knowledge to solve stubborn cases. If the Nahuatlahtoh community wanted to consider the worthwhileness of adopting this "conversion mentality", we would have to ask ourselves what there is to *gain* from doing it. The answer, as I see it, would be entry facility for a very small percentage of people who might not be willing to exert the small effort of learning the Hispanic/Jesuit system (a point already addressed by Michael). And, of course, we would lose the reading facility and comfortable familiarity of all those who are already in the field. Best regards, Joe From nahuatl at nahuatl.info Tue Jan 7 00:26:57 2003 From: nahuatl at nahuatl.info (nahuatl at nahuatl.info) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 16:26:57 -0800 Subject: Response from nahuatl.info Message-ID: Tlazohkamati for your many comments and examples...though we at nahuatl.info (Nahuatl Tlahtolcalli) are only on lesson #7, and I am not convinced that I am capable of providing logical responses to all of your questions and comments. Yes, I will change our title to your correction "Tlahtolcalli." As far as the source of the dialect in the lessons that we study - Itztli Ehecatl has the Spanish/Nahuatl book by Martinez, which he obtained from the Nahuatl University. Yet, we have a long way to go in sorting out all of the details, such as (which dialect?) - and I cannot speak for Itztli who translated the lessons into English. I do know that Sr. Ramos' (Nahuatl Instructor) coursework is from Casa de Cultura de Cholula, San Pedro Cholula, Puebla, Mexico. Although Itztli is fluent in Spanish - I merely have Latin-based reading skills. English is my first language, and I only learned a handful of Nahuatl words as a child, of which I found some of the Nahuatl words to be unique to Nahuatl speakers in Torreon, Coahuila, Mexico. Perhaps the handful of Nahuatl words that I learned as a child were all that remained from a now disconnected past to my family?s Nahuatl speaking ancestors. My family "looks" like the "Olmecah" and I am not convinced that Olmecah ever "disappeared." Rather, I think they merely integrated with incoming Aztecah and other pre-existing Native peoples. [From what I understand "Olmecah" is an academically applied (?) Nahuatl word to the assumed, "mysterious" civilization that once ruled across Anahuac (MesoAmerica).] Yes, we do find many mistakes in our online Nahuatl lessons as we meet each week and I dutifully make the corrections to the website as often as I possibly can. For example, I don't accept "in" as a translation to mean "the." Our nahuatl.info chatroom has proved to be a valuable tool in our learning experiences, with indigenous knowledge being shared that is not readily found in your wonderful Nahuat-List. We will do our best to implement as many corrections as possible by using the Nahuat-List as a resource as well. My regards to all, Citlalin Xochime From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Jan 7 14:21:26 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 08:21:26 -0600 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? Message-ID: >>At 3:12 PM -0500 1/5/03, Huaxyacac at aol.com wrote: >> >In a message dated 1/5/2003 8:13:14 AM Hawaiian Standard Time, >> >mmccaffe at indiana.edu writes: >> > >> > >> > >> >The phrase "Nahuatl is an >> > ancient language spoken by our Mexica/Azteca, Tolteca, Olmeca..." is >> > incorrect. I'm surprised to find such a statement. Of the peoples listed >> > here only the Mexica and Azteca spoke Nahuatl. >> > >> > >> > >> > Just out of curiosity, what language do you believe the Tolteca spoke, if >> >not Nahuatl? >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Alec Christensen >> >>Yes, and what language(s) do you -- or anyone else -- think that the >>Olmeca-Xicalanca spoke? >> >>More questions... >> >>John Carlson From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Jan 7 16:13:39 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 10:13:39 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Me: Art exhibit offers a new reconstruction of Tenochtitlan Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 10:14:27 -0500 >Reply-To: Carolyn Tate >From: Carolyn Tate >Subject: Me: Art exhibit offers a new reconstruction of Tenochtitlan > > >For your information, > >"1519: The Wonders of Aztec Mexico. Paintings and models by Scott >and Stuart Gentling and Aztec Art from their Collection." The >debut of this exhibition will open in Lubbock, TX at the Buddy >Holly Fine Arts Center from 22 September 2003 to 22 November 2003. >A symposium will be held on 30 Oct 2003 in Lubbock. > >These twin brother-artists have spent nearly 30 years researching >archeology and ethnohistory to be able to create a new >reconstruction of the Sacred Precinct that incorporates all 78 >buildings mentioned by Sahagun. Their plan is unique in allowing >all the events of the Aztec monthly festivals, as described in >the 16th century, to be logically staged in the appropriate >shrines and platforms. They have realized this through the fire >of their own fascination, fueled by their consummate skill in >model building and painting. Both are informed, also, by their >profound understanding of Aztec religion, founded in scholarly >research, and of the formal qualities of Aztec art, of which they >have collected over 100 pieces. > >They have already conferred with archaeologists at the Templo >Mayor Project and with numerous Aztec scholars. This exhibition >in Lubbock will display the current, well-informed stage of their >thinking about Tenochtitlan. The Gentling brothers seek >additional feedback from scholars as they aim to complete a >two-volume book and a traveling exhibition. I encourage all those >interested in the Aztecs, Mesoamerican art and religion, and >Mesoamerican city planning to attend the symposium and ensuing >discussion and to see this remarkable body of work. > >The show includes 20 paintings, about 15 models of specific >temples and the entire Sacred Precinct, numerous drawings, and >about 90 Aztec objects. It is curated by Carolyn Tate. > >For more information, contact c.tate at ttu.edu > >Carolyn Tate >Associate Professor, Art History, >School of Art, Box 42081,Texas Tech University >Lubbock, TX 79409-2081 From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Jan 7 22:17:09 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 16:17:09 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl textbooks; dialects Message-ID: At 08:15 AM 1/6/03 +0000, you wrote: >What progress has there been in forthcoming Nahuatl textbooks >since July 2001 (Andrews's books; Molina translated into English; >etc)? I have been busy with other things for much of the time since. University of Oklahoma Press is beginning its advertising campaign for a March 2003 release of Andrews, Introduction to Classical Nahuatl. The following is a Books-In-Print record of the book. No price has been set, that I know of. http://www.booksinprint.com/merge_shared/Details/details.asp?navPage=1&item_uid=7838676&DataSource= I have heard of no project to translate the Molina dictionary to English. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Jan 8 01:46:22 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:46:22 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl textbooks; dialects In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030107161703.02b835a0@cda.mrs.umn.edu> Message-ID: Fritz, In 1972 I started punching IBM cards with the contents of Molina's 1571 Nahuatl-Spanish dictionary with the goal of translating it into English. Actually, the *real* reason for wanting to do that was to do a project that would force me to learn the dictionary. I left Indiana in 1973 and two Hoosier colleagues later shipped my 10 boxes of Molina to me in San Antonio on a Greyhound bus. By the beginning of the summer of 1974, I had the remaining cards punched and I was ready to translate Molina's Spanish definitions into English. I figured that six weeks was ample time and set to work, surrounded by dictionaries... 14 hours a day and seven days a week. Six weeks passed, the summer passed, and teaching classes impeded full-bore progress, but it was finished in the summer of 1976. About 25 presses turned it down for publication (fortunately) and gave me time to add the morphological analyses. And then it came out in 1985 as _A Morphological Dictionary of Classical Nahuatl_. To shorten the story, in 1998 I added Molina's 1555 and 1571 Spanish-Nahuatl dictionaries to the project and worked on the three dictionaries full time for two years. That was the background for Mary's and my "Alonso Molina as Lexicographer" that appeared recently in _Making Dictionaries: Preserving Indigenous Languages of the Americas_ (edited by William Frawley, Kenneth C. Hill, and Pamela Munro). The ongoing project involves the integration of Molina's three dictionaries, with English translations and morphological analyses. When will it be finished? 1972 isn't that long ago.... All the best, Joe On Tue, 7 Jan 2003, John F. Schwaller wrote: > > I have heard of no project to translate the Molina dictionary to English. > > From karttu at nantucket.net Wed Jan 8 17:27:05 2003 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 12:27:05 -0500 Subject: Number query Message-ID: Can someone direct me to a source or sources for an actual number of people said to have died when the Spanish forces under Pedro de Alvarado attacked the celebrants in the Templo Mayor? So far as I can find, although the Florentine Codex describes a great slaughter, there is no specific number of deaths mentioned. Is there such a figure somewhere else? I am working with a person who cites a number, but I suspect what he uses is the number of people calculated to have been sacrificed for the dedication of the temple, not the number of those killed in the Spanish attack. Thanks, Fran From menchaca at stsci.edu Wed Jan 8 20:07:53 2003 From: menchaca at stsci.edu (menchaca at stsci.edu) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:07:53 -0500 Subject: computational tool for exploration of language dictionaries Message-ID: An interesting project presenting lexical databases using XML. As of August 2002, the Nahuatl version (Kitlkitl) is in alpha. http://www-nlp.stanford.edu/kirrkirr/ Kirrkirr: a computational tool for the exploration of indigenous language dictionaries Kirrkirr is a research project exploring the use of computer software for automatic transformation of lexical databases ("dictionaries"), aiming at providing innovative information visualization, particularly targeted at indigenous languages. As a first example, it can generate networks of words automatically from dictionary data. The central idea motivating our research is that given any sort of well-structured lexical database, software should be able to automatically provide all sorts of value-added functionality. In recent years, there has been an enormous amount of work on different proposals for structuring and storing lexical databases, but almost no work on providing electronic dictionary interfaces which make use of this structure to provide human access and usability through information transformation and visualization. Kirrkirr explores ways of solving this unaddressed need. Technical details: Kirrkirr is designed so that it can work with any dictionary in XML format (XML is a new-ish, but already widespread standard for representing textual and other data, especially on the WWW). Most of our initial experience and papers concern applying the dictionary to Warlpiri, an Indigenous Australian language, but lately we've been building a version for Nahuatl, an Indigenous language of Mexico. It achieves this flexibility through use of a dictionary specification file (also in XML, mainly using XPath) which maps dictionary constructs to Kirrkirr constructs. Such a file does have to be written for each dictionary schema. Formatted entries are rendered using parameterized XSLT files, which can be customized for each dictionary schema. Other dictionary access is by XPath expressions accompanied by regular expression matching. The program is written in Java. Where possible we run it using current Java versions, but it is compatible with JDK1.1.8+Swing1.1, so that we can run it on MacOS 8 or 9 (still common in Australian schools!). From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Jan 9 14:30:49 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 08:30:49 -0600 Subject: Number query Message-ID: From: "Ricardo J. Salvador" To: Nahuat-L On Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 11:27 AM, Frances Karttunen wrote: > Can someone direct me to a source or sources for an actual number of > people > said to have died when the Spanish forces under Pedro de Alvarado > attacked > the celebrants in the Templo Mayor? So far as I can find, although the > Florentine Codex describes a great slaughter, there is no specific > number of > deaths mentioned. Is there such a figure somewhere else? > > I am working with a person who cites a number, but I suspect what he > uses is > the number of people calculated to have been sacrificed for the > dedication > of the temple, not the number of those killed in the Spanish attack. I'm surprised at the difficulty of finding the number you need. However, from what I can tell on scanning the materials on hand here, the difference between the number of victims sacrificed at the dedication of Huey Teocalli in 1487 and the number of people massacred during the celebration of Toxcatl in 1520 was at least one order of magnitude, perhaps two. You would think that numbers would be readily forthcoming from the side of the victims, but as you've pointed out, there are none provided by Sahag?n's informants nor in the other obvious chronicles. However, from the Spanish side here are some referents: L?pez de G?mara (a problematic source) gives an upper bound for the number of victims in the form of the number of participants in the Toxcatl ritual: (From 104. Causes of the Uprising): "More than six hundred (some say more than a thousand) gentlemen, and even several lords, assembled in the yard of the main temple, where that night they made a great hubbub with their drums, conches, trumpets, and bone fifes,..." So, if you accept this attestation, then the maximum possible number of Mexica victims was on the order of 1,000. Another Spanish source is the legal procedure against Alvarado for that very episode (Proceso de Residencia Instruido Contra Pedro de Alvarado y Nu?o de Guzm?n.) The relevant passage states (with faithful spelling): "...el dicho Pedro Dalvarado junt? a los espa?oles que ten?a con todas sus armas y envi? unos a la fortaleza donde estava preso el dicho Motenzuma con muchos se?ores e prencipales con sus servidores e criados... y syn causa ni raz?n alguna dieron sobrellos y mataron todos los mas de los se?ores que estavan presos con el dicho Motenzuma y mataron cuatro cientos se?ores e prencipales que con ?l estavan e mataron mucho numero de yndios que estavan baylando en mas cantidad de tres mil personas por lo qual la tierra se also viendo que syn razon los matavan..." So, again if you accept these highly charged accusations, levied after the conquest and whence the various parties were attempting to settle various scores against one another, the outer bound can be no larger than the actual number of Mexica participants in the festivities. These numbers, poor as they are in terms of trustworthiness, are the only concrete claims I've found after browsing all the relevant texts and native chronicles I've got here. They contrast markedly with the claims made for number of victims in 1487. Y?lotl Gonz?les Torres (El Sacrificio Humano Entre los Mexicas) sets the range of possible victims there from the low bound of 2,500 captives contributed by 28 towns from Tepeaca (per Tezoz?moc) to 20,000 (per Telleriano Remensis Codex), though he thinks even that claim is conflated with the fact that all who attended the dedication bled themselves and so also "sacrificed." He discounts as logistically impossible the famous claim from the Annals of Cuauhtitlan that 80,400 men were sacrificed. There are also intermediate claims, but the key thing is that it ought to be possible to distinguish the number of victims of the two events you want to separate. Victims of the temple dedication seem to number in the 10s of thousands, whereas victims of the Toxcatl massacre were in the hundreds and perhaps low thousands. Sorry that no more definitive numbers seem to be available. I repeat that I'm surprised (I thought for sure it would pop out of any number of the native chronicles compiled by Le?n-Portilla in "Visi?n de los Vencidos," but no luck.) Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Jan 9 14:44:46 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 08:44:46 -0600 Subject: FW: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 02:31:59 -0600 Subject: Re: FW: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? From: "Ricardo J. Salvador" To: Nahuat-L Discussion List On Sunday, January 6, 2003, at 20:29:43 -800 (PST) , nahuatl at nahuatl.info wrote: >We are poor graduate students, using a few Nahuatl coursework >resources, and our own money to maintain the nahuatl.info website. We are >certainly NO EXPERTS - in fact, we are beginner students ourselves (as if we >need to inform you of this). Mainly, we offer Nahuatl study in an online >format. >We don't have the money to take expensive Nahuatl courses at any U.S. >university - and we certainly don't have the money to travel to Mexico >and take real Nahuatl classes. Citlalin, Understood. Since it is clear you have a genuine interest in learning Nahuatl, I am assuming you care about learning the language properly. I think this is particularly important since you seek to guide others in their learning and because an ultimate objective of yours is to communicate with native speakers of the language. Let me offer some concrete suggestions for improvement: (1) You've gathered a number of resources from around the web as support materials for your lessons. These consist primarily of word lists and the like. I must tell you directly that these sites are spurious and you shouldn't rely on them. It is particularly unnecessary for you to be limited in this regard because there is no shortage of good learning materials for Nahuatl. I want to point you to better resources, so I won't dwell on the various shortcomings of the web links that I've seen on your site, but I do want to give you one example so that you know what I mean. The NativeWeb link offers a particularly nonsensical list of words that it claims are from the "Nahuatl language of the Mayas of Mexico," and then proceeds to indeed offer an unholy mix of Mayan and Nahuatl words (with all sorts of egregious errors to boot). The same site then continues to expound on the "Zapotec language of the Mayas of Mexico"... When the Nahuat-L discussion list began it was common for some subscribers to join seeking support for learning the language. I put together a list of resources then to guide such folk, and your predicament (as described above), has spurred me to update it. Though I must still update many of the print materials given in this list, I've augmented it with a number of excellent, substantive resources that are now available online, including dictionaries, grammars, texts and lessons. It is these low-cost materials that I think will be of greatest value to you. Imagine the situation that would obtain if well-meaning beginners with plenty of zeal and energy all referred to one another and reinforced inaccurate information. You've managed to do this (and I'll suggest my explanation for this before I'm done), but you can do better, by referring to authoritative materials. So, just for you, the updated list of resources for learning Nahuatl is at: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/nahuatl.html One huge limitation that you will have in your efforts is the lack of opportunity to hear the language and to gradually build your listening ability and conversational skills. You clearly know this. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that in your media files you have a recording that I put online many years ago to illustrate the 20-day calendar round. You've edited this and added English gloss plus a repetition of the Nahuatl (I take it the English speaker is you.) Being frank, the pronunciation that you are offering as a guide for learners needs to be improved. EVERY sound that is key to proper Nahuatl is terribly mispronounced, in spite of the fact that you're following a recorded version of those sounds. I think I know why. These are unfamiliar and unknown sounds to you and you simply need to hear the sounds often and to understand how they are produced. I'm confident that with a little explanation of this and a lot of opportunity to hear the language you can improve markedly. This is a component of language learning that will be particularly difficult to supply electronically, and perhaps a number of us on the list could work toward making dialogues and various expressions available online, but that will take the cooperation of native speakers (who of course must agree to this) and a bit of concerted effort. In the meantime, following are a few sustained monologues in Nahuatl, spoken by by native speakers (these should be more useful than the ones you currently offer and they should help you and your companions perfect your hearing sense for the language): (a) Mexico's Instituto Nacional Indigenista (INI) has some short clips of native speakers online. I'll link you to some that are a bit comical but still very useful. The premise of one of INI's programs (=Que lengua hablas?) is that an audio database of native speakers = of all of Mexico's languages will be useful to distinguish how individual dialects differ from one another. Of course, for these to be useful then the speakers must be induced to pronounce the same utterances. The idea is to prompt the speaker to nod their head if they understand the language, then shake hands, and so on, and of course I smile when I listen to them because I think "well.. what if the person doesn't understand... ;-). But these ARE very instructive: [You'll need RealPlayer to hear these]: - Mexicano from Puebla's Sierra Norte: http://www.ini.gob.mx/lenguahablas/len_nahuatl_sntepuebla.ram -Mexicano from Tlapa, Guerrero: http://www.ini.gob.mx/lenguahablas/len_nahuatl_tlapagro.ram -Mexicano from Tancanhuiz, San Luis Potos=ED: http://www.ini.gob.mx/lenguahablas/len_nahuatl_tancanhuitzslp.ram -Mexicano from Zongolica, Veracruz: http://www.ini.gob.mx/lenguahablas/len_nahuatl_zongolicaver.ram -Mexicanero from the mountains of Nayarit: http://www.ini.gob.mx/lenguahablas/len_mexicanero_nay.ram (b) Jonathan Amith has placed the following recording online, of Inocencio Diaz of Amayaltepec, Guerrero describing the curative powers of a little plant that is related to shepherd's purse: http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~jamith/033Am_Chen.mp3 You can follow the Nahuatl and English renditions as Mr. Diaz speaks, at this address: http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~jamith/TeminixkatsinPage.htm Listen to this as often as you can. Note not only the words themselves, but the way sentences are constructed and how certain things are repeated. Also notice how much Spanish is mixed in with contemporary Nahuatl (incidentally, on Nahuatl.info you claim very few people currently speak Classic Nahuatl. In fact, by definition, nobody does so today. This is a label used to refer to the language as it was spoken in the central valley of Mexico at the time of European contact.) >What we do have is pride and a desire to learn what has been >robbed from us(our language and culture) as the result of colonial >invaders. We're >not out to impress Amerikan academic institutions, rather - we aim to be >able to visit Nahuatl speaking communities - and to communicate with our >people - whether that communication is poorly structured or not - at least we >are trying to do something positive for our beloved culture. (2) Bear with me, but this is where I'll posit why I think you've gravitated toward poor and unreliable materials when in fact there is plenty of excellent material available, even for those with limited ability to pay. First let me give you this encouragement: the history, experience, culture and cumulative achievements of the people of Mesoamerica are sufficiently impressive as they are, without need to embellish them, idealize them and otherwise romanticize them. Let me quote you a passage that you may find interesting. The speaker is Tlacotzin, who was the Cihuacaotl ("she-serpent" or counselor) of Cuauhtemoctzin, the last legitimate Tlatoani (Lord or "eloquent speaker") of the Mexica. The Cihuacoatl was a powerful personage in the Mexica theocracy. The year is 1521, the location is Coyoacan (now one of Mexico City's 'burbs) and the situation is that Cortez has just consummated his military victory and is now concerned to consolidate his power and obtain as much booty as possible. He has brought Cuauhtemoc and his entourage before him and has asked them for an explanation of the political divisions and lordships of the land he has just conquered. We know this from the recounting of the chronicler Fernando Alva Ixtlilx=F3chitl ("De la venida de los espa=F1oles y principios de la ley evang=E9lica.") The she-serpent speaks (my translation): "Oh my prince, hear you god the little that I have to say. I, the mexicatl, had no land, no fields to plant, when I came here amid the tepanecas and the people of Xochimillco, among the people of Aculhuacan and those of Chalco; they did have fields to plant, land did they have. And with arrows and shields I made myself lord of the others, and I appropriated their planting fields and their lands. Just as you have done, who have come with arrows and with shields to appropriate all of our cities. And as you came here from somewhere else, so did I, the mexicatl, I came to appropriate the land with arrows and shields." It is the history of human beings that whenever a more technologically powerful people encounter weaker people, they appropriate their resources and either eliminate or absorb the original peoples. It is what the Mexica did to most of the city-states of Mesoamerica, it is what Zapotecs endeavored to do over 800 years of their imperial history, it is what the powerful Mayan city-states endeavored to do to each other over 1,200 years, what the Spaniards did to the Mexica, what the English and Germans did with the aborigines of North America, what the Romans did to the original Spaniards and ad infinitum going back to what the Cro-Magnon did to the Neanderthals. As you know, the Spaniards were not gods and a small handful of them with blunderbusses, horses and ships certainly did not defeat Mesoamerica's most powerful army. What happened was that Mesoamerican nations that had been invaded and in some cases enslaved by the Mexica allied strategically with the invaders and rose against them. On the Zapotec page, I've a modest gateway to Mesoamerican resources on the web, and this is my summary of the Mexica, who had only been on the scene as a major power for about 200 years at the time of European contact (compare that with approximately 3,000 years of continuous cultural development in Mesoamerica prior to this) and were rightly seen as barbaric interlopers and pretenders by the city-states with greater time-depth and cultural continuity in place: "Aztec" Culture: They were the great economic and military oppressors of Mesoamerica at the time the Spanish arrived. Their tyranny was avenged by the majority of Mesoamerican nations, who allied themselves with the Spaniards against the Mexica. Rarely in history has the destruction and vanquishment of a great civilization by its conquerors been so complete. Even so, their impact on the whole of Mesoamerica was indelible, and in order to understand modern M=E9xico, its language, many of its customs and its placenames, it is necessary to understand the Mexica nation.=20 I applaud your self-awareness and motivation to assess the world of knowledge critically, but I'd like to point out that it is not useful, and in fact it is dangerous, to mythologize about matters of history. One key lesson of history is that some of our collective peaks of evil have come when individual peoples by their lineage or race perceive that they are privileged over others. I may interpret incorrectly, but from your site it seems to me that if not you, many of the people associated with your site are perilously close to the boundary that separates healthy interest in personal heritage and the very attitude you decry above, the certitude of cultural superiority. In fact, I know that a typical response to observations such as these goes along the lines that that is historical propaganda. For example, in your chat session on slavery, you have someone who just knows the Mexica did not have slaves, and the support for the argument is something like "I like my myth, it makes me happy; your facts do not support my myth; therefore, your facts can't be right." And so it is natural that you have gravitated toward the "educational offerings" of people with similar outlooks. I don't mean to lecture, but to make clear that you can count on plenty of support here for your honest interest and diligence in learning Nahuatl, but to the extent that you wish to lard that effort with crusading zeal for an image of the virtuous but victimized Mexica I think you'll find yourself irritated and (at least speaking for myself) you'll tend to frustrate others on here. But now to some more positive vibrations... >I have your analytical dictionary - and I try to read from it >everyday - as well as the other Nahuatl resources that I have. So please, >offer any >helpful resources or references to us, rather than your criticism. I am sure you can appreciate, even though you've criticized "Amerikan" academics above, the work that went into assembling the Analytical Dictionary. The superb quality of this work, which you state is valuable to you, is owing to the fact that its author is a rigorous linguist and academic. You've also benefited from the work of Joe Campbell, as I see you've found some of the trilingual word lists that he and Fritz Schwaller have made available through the Nahuatl Home Page and that you have linked them from Nahuatl.info. In addition, consider the time that Joe took to provide you a detailed list of improvements to increase the accuracy and trustworthiness of the material you're purveying online. You're fortunate to have generated that type of interest and support. And it is on the life work of people like Fran and Joe, toward improving our collective understanding of Nahuatl, that I want to end this note. You'll note that one of the resources listed on the page for "Learning Nahuatl" is the Campbell and Karttunen "Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar" (two volunes). I highly recommend this to you and your students as an accessible, methodical and effective resource for serious learners. Since you've mentioned that you have economic limitations, I offer that if you don't already have a copy of this for your tlahtolcalli, I will be delighted to provide one for you. Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Jan 9 14:51:30 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 08:51:30 -0600 Subject: Response from nahuatl.info Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 03:12:28 -0600 Subject: Re: Response from nahuatl.info From: "Ricardo J. Salvador" To: Nahuat-L Discussion List On Monday, January 6, 2003, at 06:26 PM, wrote: > English is > my first language, and I only learned a handful of Nahuatl words as a > child, of which I found some of the Nahuatl words to be unique to > Nahuatl > speakers in Torreon, Coahuila, Mexico. Perhaps the handful of Nahuatl > words that I learned as a child were all that remained from a now > disconnected past to my family?s Nahuatl speaking ancestors. My > family "looks" like the "Olmecah" and I am not convinced that Olmecah > ever "disappeared." Rather, I think they merely integrated with > incoming > Aztecah and other pre-existing Native peoples. [From what I > understand "Olmecah" is an academically applied (?) Nahuatl word to the > assumed, "mysterious" civilization that once ruled across Anahuac > (MesoAmerica).] No need to speculate about this, at least not in a complete vacuum. There is a growing body of evidence indicating that the people we now call "Olmec" (you're right, a latter day label) spread in a cone, principally along a north-south axis from the Gulf coast across the Isthmus and toward the Pacific coast, and in fact their present-day identity is not such a mystery any longer. It is fairly probable that they were the direct ancestors of today's Mixe-Zoque language family. The evidence is both archaeological and linguistic. A topical example is a recent report by Pohl et al. (6 Dec 2002) Science 298:1984-1986, documenting that remains found at La Venta (Tabasco) and dated to about 650 B. C., bear clear iconography associated with calendar dates and early rebus writing (prior to this the earliest clear sign of writing and calendrical inscriptions was from San Jos? Mogote, Oaxaca, Zapotec country, and dated to around 300 B. C.). These authors have compared various developmental gradients for iconography spanning the area from Oaxaca, through the Isthmus and Mayan country, and have found some interesting patterns. I'll quote you a relevant passage: "Later Mesoamerican groups borrowed heavily from Middle Formative Olmec traditions. Writing and calendrics spread from this central Isthmian region to Western and Eastern Mesoamerica along with new systems of kingship based, in part, on military conquest,. Linguistic studies support the hypothesis of the Isthmian region as the origin of the common ancestor. Archaeological sites with evidence for the Isthmian script have the same geographic distribution as the present-day Mije-Soke language. Other Mesoamerican languages include Mije-Soke loan words for "to write," "paper," "year," "to count," and "Twenty" (denoting the vigesimal numerical system that underlies the 20-day month)." As for your claim of direct Olmec to Mexica transformation, it is very unlikely for many reasons, but the principal one is that you must bear in mind the tremendous time difference that we're talking about here. The peak of Olmec cultural development (at least as measured by construction and use of ceremonial centers) took place prior to the Common Era, at least a millenium before the people who would eventually become the Mexica were even IN Mesoamerica! The Mixe-Zoque have persisted, as you correctly state, but their strategy was to remove to the most recondite parts of Mexico and remain isolated. That is the case to this day. Their domain is the "Nudo del Zempoatepetl," Espinazo del Diablo, Selva Zoque and Bosque Los Chimalapas in today's Oaxaca and Chiapas, very remote and inaccessible spots to this day. They had little contact with the Mexica (they are known to this day in Oaxaca as "the never conquered") primarily because of their isolation, but the Mexica also probably perceived that they were dirt poor and had little to exploit. So you see, it is not only unlikely that the transformation or hybridization you allude took place, but any encounter that would have taken place would have been belligerent. BTW, if you grow up in Mexico it is part and parcel of learning to speak that you're going to know a "handful of Nahuatl words," whether you realize it or not, and it has very little to do with your bloodlines. Interesting that you should mention Nahuatl in Torre?n, though. There were in fact scattered Nahuatl-speaking communities throughout northern Mexico and into present-day New Mexico, but they were latter-day historical artifacts of the fact that the Spaniards took along Tlaxcaltecan people on their explorations into unknown territory. As you know, the Tlaxcaltecans were vigorous allies of the Spaniards in the conquest, and in the early postconquest period they were proud to be associated with the new order and were eager to share in the spoils of conquest (in fact, that had been part of the explicit "deal.) There was a fabled march of 400 families from Tlaxcallan who were taken north in the latter 16th century, specifically to colonize the barbaric lands there. But, the Spaniards took them (their "nabor?as") wherever they went (south, east and west), and usually settled them alongside their main Spanish settlements. In fact, in southern Mexico we know to suspect that is what happened when some place called Analco is set by a Spanish "county seat" in the middle of a non-nahuatl-speaking area ;-). So, though I don't know why you're claiming the above, if by some chance you have ancestors from Torre?n who were Nahuatl speakers, they were probably descendants of Tlaxcallans who were strong Spanish allies and intentionally travelled north for explicit purposes of pacification and colonization. If you're interested, read more at: http://www.tlaxcala.gob.mx/portal/turismo/anexo/tradicional/ 400familias2.html Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From nahuatl at nahuatl.info Fri Jan 10 01:22:52 2003 From: nahuatl at nahuatl.info (nahuatl at nahuatl.info) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 17:22:52 -0800 Subject: FW: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030109083948.02c1a7b0@cda.mrs.umn.edu> Message-ID: Professor Salvador, First of all, I send my gracious appreciation and general thankfulness to you for responding to my request for Nahuatl resources with an exceptionally well compiled listing. I will review and attempt to gather those resources as suggested. However, the items listed in the Spanish language will do me no good, since I am not educated in Spanish beyond one year study. I look especially forward to accessing the recordings that you provide. Because my response to your other comments is lengthy, I have written, formatted, and uploaded the following at the link listed below so that I may retain in my response, the formatting not available in my little email program: http://www.zorrah.net/ProfSalvador.htm From salvador at iastate.edu Fri Jan 10 14:07:47 2003 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:07:47 -0600 Subject: Mechanical grammar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Monday, January 6, 2003, at 03:39 PM, r. joe campbell wrote: >> Are you saying it is impractical - if not impossible - to write a >> computer program to translate the spellings from Nahuatl to Nawatl? > > There are two problems with this suggestion: ... > The answer is to do the conversion with a program that will maximize > the correct results -- and then clean up the remainder over a period of > years by hand, at times resorting to morphological knowledge to solve > stubborn cases. This is totally off-topic but this comment reminded me of a recent experience that might amuse you. In Summer of 2000 I took sabbatic in Oaxaca and decided to pursue a little project I'd thought about for some time. I programmed a mechanical conjugator of Yatzachi el Bajo zapotec on the basis of Inez Butler's grammar of the language. I enlisted a couple of my poor cousins in the project and when we finished the little contraption it could handle person, tense and number. The regularity of the language, and Butler's thoroughness and attention to detail, made most of this work go smoothly, and of course I learned more than I could have imagined from the exercise. During the development of this little engine we used a limited range of roots that we knew well. When we got it functioning satisfactually we started to feed it all kinds of roots and we discovered a few constructions that were odd, though correctly generated by rule. We knew they looked fine, and in principle were understandable, but they didn't sound right. So we decided to consult our parents and uncles to get their interpretation, and this is what I thought might interest you. Though we didn't plan it, we consulted our relatives independently and they consistently made comments such as: "Oh yeah, that's the proper way of saying it, but we're sloppy about it now." "Yes, that's the way they say it over in X" (where X is one of the neighboring villages over the ridge). "That's right when you think about it, but I don't know why we don't really use that." It made me think that with enough knowledge, a "meta-informational" layer might be added to such an engine in order to generate dialectical variants. For instance, you might put in a rule to the effect that people in X run the conjugational engine but modify it because they like to speak quickly and so take predictable shortcuts; people in Y modify the engine by abbreviating pluralizing modifiers; and so on, with the end effect that ideally you could devise a single engine but get it to generate proper conjugations for the dialect of your interest :-). Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From michael.boyland at wciu.edu Fri Jan 10 18:21:25 2003 From: michael.boyland at wciu.edu (Michael Boyland) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:21:25 -0800 Subject: Mechanical grammar Message-ID: Dear All, Summer Institute of Linguistics has some pretty good programs for translating between related languages. Michael Boyland "Ricardo J. Salvador" wrote: > On Monday, January 6, 2003, at 03:39 PM, r. joe campbell wrote: > > >> Are you saying it is impractical - if not impossible - to write a > >> computer program to translate the spellings from Nahuatl to Nawatl? > > > > There are two problems with this suggestion: > ... > > The answer is to do the conversion with a program that will maximize > > the correct results -- and then clean up the remainder over a period of > > years by hand, at times resorting to morphological knowledge to solve > > stubborn cases. > > This is totally off-topic but this comment reminded me of a recent > experience that might amuse you. In Summer of 2000 I took sabbatic in > Oaxaca and decided to pursue a little project I'd thought about for > some time. I programmed a mechanical conjugator of Yatzachi el Bajo > zapotec on the basis of Inez Butler's grammar of the language. I > enlisted a couple of my poor cousins in the project and when we > finished the little contraption it could handle person, tense and > number. The regularity of the language, and Butler's thoroughness and > attention to detail, made most of this work go smoothly, and of course > I learned more than I could have imagined from the exercise. > > During the development of this little engine we used a limited range of > roots that we knew well. When we got it functioning satisfactually we > started to feed it all kinds of roots and we discovered a few > constructions that were odd, though correctly generated by rule. We > knew they looked fine, and in principle were understandable, but they > didn't sound right. So we decided to consult our parents and uncles to > get their interpretation, and this is what I thought might interest > you. Though we didn't plan it, we consulted our relatives independently > and they consistently made comments such as: > > "Oh yeah, that's the proper way of saying it, but we're sloppy about it > now." > > "Yes, that's the way they say it over in X" (where X is one of the > neighboring villages over the ridge). > > "That's right when you think about it, but I don't know why we don't > really use that." > > It made me think that with enough knowledge, a "meta-informational" > layer might be added to such an engine in order to generate dialectical > variants. For instance, you might put in a rule to the effect that > people in X run the conjugational engine but modify it because they > like to speak quickly and so take predictable shortcuts; people in Y > modify the engine by abbreviating pluralizing modifiers; and so on, > with the end effect that ideally you could devise a single engine but > get it to generate proper conjugations for the dialect of your interest > :-). > > Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 > 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 > Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu > Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From davius_sanctex at terra.es Fri Jan 10 21:05:29 2003 From: davius_sanctex at terra.es (David Sanchez) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 22:05:29 +0100 Subject: polite farewell forms Message-ID: I have read in your posts some different ways of finishing politely communications in n?watl: (1) Cencah Xochichil 'For ever, the redness of flowers' (???) (2) Citlalin Xochimeh 'The star and the flowers' / 'flowers from/to stars' (???) (3) Citlalyani '[we are] going to the star(s)' (???) All these forms seem very obscure to me, and I am not sure of the explanations I provide to them. Can someone to help me in clarify the meaning and interpretation of these expresions? David Sanchez -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Jan 10 21:38:30 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:38:30 -0500 Subject: polite farewell forms In-Reply-To: <005101c2b8ec$031cb1c0$28e02550@dummy.net> Message-ID: David, I'll let Citlalin and Citlalyani speak for themselves, but I can shed some light on what sometimes follows my own signature. To really appreciate it, you'd have to 1) see me from the back when I'm not facing you and not wearing a coat; 2) see me when I raise the cuff of my jeans. Several years ago, two good friends of mine (one a native speaker of Nahuatl and the other an acquired speaker of Nahuatl) sent me a gift: a beautifully white-stitched belt which said "Cencah Xochichil". Since then, I have been accosted frequently in public by people who want to know what my belt says. When I reply, "Always red-footed". I let their puzzled look last for a few seconds before I pull up the cuff of my jeans and let the glow of my red socks hit them and say, "I haven't worn anything but red socks for more than thirty years." Best regards, Joe (Cencah Xochichil) On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, David Sanchez wrote: > I have read in your posts some different ways of finishing politely > communications in n?watl: > > (1) Cencah Xochichil 'For ever, the redness of flowers' (???) > (2) Citlalin Xochimeh 'The star and the flowers' / 'flowers from/to stars' (???) > (3) Citlalyani '[we are] going to the star(s)' (???) > > All these forms seem very obscure to me, and I am not sure of the > explanations I provide to them. Can someone to help me in clarify the > meaning and interpretation of these expresions? > > David Sanchez > From campbel at indiana.edu Fri Jan 10 23:25:01 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:25:01 -0500 Subject: Mechanical grammar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, Ricardo J. Salvador wrote: > .... and decided to pursue a little project I'd thought about for > some time. I programmed a mechanical conjugator of Yatzachi el Bajo > zapotec on the basis of Inez Butler's grammar of the language. I > enlisted a couple of my poor cousins in the project and when we > finished the little contraption it could handle person, tense and > number. The regularity of the language, and Butler's thoroughness and > attention to detail, made most of this work go smoothly, and of course > I learned more than I could have imagined from the exercise. Ricardo, When I read your account about generating regular Zapotec words, I literally cackled with glee. I thought at first that my comments might not be of general enough interest for the list, but then I realized that they were related to a current theme of the list -- how does one go about beginning to learn Nahuatl? I know I'm taking a chance on my fuzzy memory in trying to recall Arthur Anderson's comment in his introduction to his edition of Clavijero's _Reglas de la lengua mexicana con un vocabulario_ to the effect that most people hadn't learned Nahuatl in organized classes. They learned it by "bootstrapping". Actually, my entry was a bit easier than the one that many people face -- limited learning resources and not enough time to devote to study. I went to Tepoztlan in 1962 with a group of anthropologists led by Ken Hale. We had six weeks with nothing to do except dedicate our waking moments to learning Nahuatl. And we didn't have any reference materials (no dictionary and no grammar) since the point of our activity was to learn how to induce the shape of the language from the data that surrounded us. I can't say that I *learned* the language and when Indiana asked me in the mid-1960s if I would teach a Nahuatl course if the need arose (they were applying for federal money under the NDEA program (National Defense Education Act)), I said yes, on the condition that it be in collaboration with a native speaker. The need didn't arise until 1970 when someone applied for NDEA money to begin his study of Nahuatl. IU told me to find an appropriate speaker during the summer and make arrangements for their spending the 1970-71 academic year in Bloomington. I located a very talented young woman from Hueyapan, Morelos, whom I'll call "Elvira". She spent two semesters here, giving wonderful help in class and tons of information in private sessions with me. When the University didn't see fit to renew her contract for the following year, I was faced with dropping the course or with teaching it by myself. Since I thought the key to reasonable early progress was the aquisition of a clear image of the one dimensional intransitive verb matrix (ni-, ti-, --, ti--h, am--h, --h) and the two dimensional transitive verb matrix (the subject prefixes intersecting with the object prefixes (nech-, mitz-, c/qui-, tech-, amech-, quim-), I needed a large set of exercise items. Was I going to laboriously write all these out in the present, future, and preterit? ...Maybe on purple ditto masters? No, even then, I already believed in the credo of the guys in the computer center: find a way to let the computer give you the most results, while maximizing your own laziness. So I punched a large set of verb stems on those 80 column cards and wrote a program to generate all the possible verb forms in three tenses (maybe I included a fourth one, but my memory is imperfect there). Since the course was about Hueyapan Nahuatl (*not* "classical", partly because it would have been very difficult to get native speech on tape), certain "irregularities" had to be built into the program: 1) /k/ --> [g] intervocally ("I return" 'ninogopa', but "I return you" 'nimitzkopa'); 2) /w/ --> [v] intervocally ("I laugh" 'nivetzka', but "he laughs" 'wetzka'); 3) /w/ --> nothing [after /o/] ("he falls" 'huetzi', but "he fell" 'oetz'). That resulted in more than four thousand practice items and I did the then natural thing: I had the computer spit out each of these verb forms on a crisp, new computer card, so that I could shuffle them and make exercises all through the first semester. (There was no hard disk and no floppies...) Now my cackle has subsided into a chuckle, but I am still enjoying the shared experience, even the situation later when I was speaking to people from Hueyapan in Nahuatl (partly because I became influenced by "classical" Nahuatl) and made a non-Hueyapan verb like 'ninokopa', they removed my embarrassment at the error by saying, "No, no, esta' bien, asi' hablan en Santa Cruz". Joe (Cencah Xochichil) From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Fri Jan 10 23:34:20 2003 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 23:34:20 -0000 Subject: polite farewell forms In-Reply-To: <005101c2b8ec$031cb1c0$28e02550@dummy.net> Message-ID: On 10 Jan 2003, at 22:05, David Sanchez wrote: > I have read in your posts some different ways of finishing politely communications in n?watl: > (1) Cencah Xochichil 'For ever, the redness of flowers' (???) > (2) Citlalin Xochimeh 'The star and the flowers' / 'flowers from/to stars' (???) > (3) Citlalyani '[we are] going to the star(s)' (???) > > All these forms seem very obscure to me, and I am not sure of the explanations I provide to them. Can someone to help me in clarify the meaning and interpretation of these expresions? > David Sanchez The intended meaning of Citlalyani is "star traveller", because I like space stories and I have written some (see http://www.buckrogers.demon.co.uk ). Is such a name appropriate? Should there be a sandhi changing the -ly- into -ll-? From campbel at indiana.edu Sat Jan 11 00:22:19 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:22:19 -0500 Subject: polite farewell forms In-Reply-To: <3E1F587C.27637.3A07B22@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk wrote: > The intended meaning of Citlalyani is "star traveller", because I like > space stories and I have written some (see > http://www.buckrogers.demon.co.uk ). > Is such a name appropriate? > Should there be a sandhi changing the -ly- into -ll-? > Anthony, Here is a list of some words from the Florentine Codex where that sandhi fails to operate: acalyacac. at the prow of a boat; in the prow of a boat. acalyacac, im-. in the prow of their boat. acolyac, i-. its wing-bend tip. acolyacac, i-. its wing-bend tip; on its wing-bend tip; on the tip of its wing-bend; tip of its wing-bend. ahuilyecoznequi, tla-. they wish to perform negligently. ahuilyez. it will be evil. amatlapalyahualtic. round-winged, having round wings. atlapalyo, i-. its leafiness, its leaves. calyahualchihua, ni-. I make a round house. calyahualli. round house. calyahualoa, ni-. I make a house round. calyahualquetza, ni-. I erect a round house. calyollotl, ti-. you are the heart of the home. camopalyayactic. dark brown. capolyollotli. center of a cherry. coxolyecacehuaztli. crested guan feather fan. cuitlapilyac, i-. the point of its tail. cuitlapilyahualtic. having a rounded tail. cuitlaxcolyecti, te-. it soothed one's intestines; it soothed someone's intestines. cuitlaxcolyectia, te-. it soothes one's intestines. cuitlaxcolyectiz, qui-. it will purge him. hualyacan, quin-. he lead them. huelyacahuan, to-. our leaders. ixcamilyayactic. dark brown. ixtlapalyayactic. dark-colored on the surface. macpalyolloco, i-. in the palm of his hand. macpalyollotli. middle of the palm of the hand. macuelyeh. let it be soon. macuilyohual. five nights. nenepilyacahuitiauhca, to-. tip of our tongue. nopalya. nopal patch. omicicuilyacatl. end of rib; tip of rib. palcamilyayactic, tla-. dark brown; dusky brown. palyayactic, tla-. dark red. quelyecoa, tla-. she works nonchalantly. quelyecoani, tla-. one who performs reluctantly. quelyecoznequi, tla-. they wish to perform reluctantly. quetzalyacatl. down feather. queztepolyac, to-. end of the head of our femur. quilyayactic. dark green. tecpilyollo. noble of heart. texipalyamanca, to-. soft part of our lips. tlalyohuaz. it will be destroyed. tlatolyamanqui. soft-spoken. tlatolyaotl. discord. tlauhquecholyecacehuaztli. red spoonbill feather fan. tlazolyaotl. contention. tlilyayactic. dark. tolyahualli. reed rest for an earthen jar. totolyacaquiquintli. snuffling turkey. xalyectia, ni-. I purify sand, I clean sand. yolyamanqui. kind. zacatlaxcalyayactic. dark yellow. Best regards, Joe From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Sat Jan 11 10:36:16 2003 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 10:36:16 -0000 Subject: Nahuatl pronunciation on TV Message-ID: Yesterday on TV here in England I saw a program about the Aztec Empire. I didn't think much of the participants' pronunciation of Aztec place names:- 'x' in [Texcoco] as in "box". `ch' in [Tenochtitlan] as in German. `x' in [Tlaxcala] as `th' in "thing". From tekpatl at comcast.net Sat Jan 11 21:09:19 2003 From: tekpatl at comcast.net (scott) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 14:09:19 -0700 Subject: FW: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? Message-ID: Professor Salvador, I am a student in the beginning stages of learning the Nahuatl language on www.nahuatl.info. I have also assisted Ms. Xochime in the production of some of the media used on her site and course materials; notably, for the purpose of this conversation, the mp3 sound samples she has begun to provide with each lesson. I have read your lengthy posting to Ms. Xochime about her efforts on nahuatl.info, and I'd like to make two comments, and then a general observation. First, regarding your criticism of the pronunciation on the sound samples. It is true that Ms. Xochime is new to the language, as are many of us. However, there are cases where any effort to assist in the learning of a new subject is better than no effort at all. I have scoured the web myself to find actual spoken Nahuatl samples and have found very, very little - and what I have found was so badly recorded as to be totally useless to a beginning speaker. Now, you claim that offering up poor pronunciation will somehow tarnish or handicap the beginner in the learning of language. I wholeheartedly disagree with this. As a speaker of several languages myself, I can tell you that in the course of learning two of them (Gaelic and Navajo [Din?]) my original teachers had such "poor pronunciation", but helped me enough to allow me to pursue these languages further until I found native speakers who then tightened up my skills. Nahuatl is simply not as easy to learn online as Spanish or French, where a plethora of mutlimedia sites already exist to that end. Ms. Xochime, out of the love she has for her heritage and the zeal she has for the tongue, has put forth considerable efforts to at least start us out. Many of us probably won't take it to the end of fluency, but some of us might, thanks in large part to the work of Citlalin Xochime. You state, and Citlalin Xochime cites, that the sound sample she edited (The Day Count) was yours posted some time ago. You need to understand why she even added her voice at all. I am a professional multimedia artist, and can tell you without hesitation that Ms. Xochime did not add her voice because she felt she was any kind of expert, but simply because the quality of your original recording sample is extraordinarily awfull. It was one of the worst attempts of recording a human voice I've ever heard. I must say that, after hearing the paragraphs of criticism you have heaped on for offering sound samples that may "mislead" the beginner, YOU Sir should have taken much greater care in offering such samples to begin with. They were almost unintelligible, and only with the help of Senor Ramos' lessons and the Analytical dictionary did we attempt to clarify what apparently you had no interest in crafting yourself. Watch throwing those stones in glass houses....you know what happens. Secondly, a thought or two about your charge that Ms. Xochime is "mythologizing" history. You treat history as if it's a chemical chain reaction, easily observable in laboratory conditions to establish a scientific truth. Well, it's not. History is not a science - it is an art. To be honest, history is "mythologized" ten minutes after its creation in most cases. Regardless of how many resources you have to back up your opinions on historical matters, you do not have the empirical truth of what exactly occured for any historical event. In short, you are just another person with an opinion. Educated, yes - but opinion nonetheless. Now, an observation. Over all, your voluminous attempted browbeating of Ms. Xochime's work sounded scholarly, but smacked of polite condescension powered by a person with an ego issue themselves. I am all too familiar with those who have feathered their nests warmly in the comfortable recesses of academia. Often, they sit like vultures on the sidelines, springing to attack, criticize and dissemble the work of anyone who dares stick their neck out and actually do something to try and better their world. A sad thing, that. It is eerily reminiscent behavior of the limousine liberal, who feels that any identity movement automatically fosters supremacy and racism; and that any effort or opinion not supported by those in the ivory towers is wrong or misled, by that dubious virtue. Sincerely, Scott Jorgensen From salvador at iastate.edu Sat Jan 11 21:31:20 2003 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 15:31:20 -0600 Subject: Mechanical grammar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey Joe, On Friday, January 10, 2003, at 05:25 PM, r. joe campbell wrote: > I thought at first that my comments might not be of general enough > interest for the list I'm glad you wrote, because that recounting of your first experiences with Nahuatl provided a fascinating glimpse into the workings of the mind of a linguistics whiz ;-). I knew a little bit about that first experience of yours in Tepoztlan from the moving paragraph you contributed to the "In Memoriam" site that MIT put up for Kenneth Hale (the part about his catching on immediately to the "ayotochtli" compound was particularly insightful.) Your message of yesterday also caused me to flash back a few years. I didn't realize when you asked me in Bloomington for the name of my Tepozteco friend that it was because you had great depth of experience with the town (and probably with all its Mexicano speakers.) I've often wondered (and envied) how language specialists such as Hale (and you) can evidently just inhale a language (no pun intended ;-). Conceptually, it is clear that ability must relate to having developed very effective mental schemas for what a language is and the key functions that it must serve. You must immediately focus on the fundamental mechanisms that each language employs to solve its universal functions, and then "layer" the secondary aspects. For example, just your description: > Since I thought the key to reasonable early progress was the > aquisition of a clear image of the one dimensional intransitive verb > matrix (ni-, ti-, --, ti--h, am--h, --h) and the two dimensional > transitive verb matrix (the subject prefixes intersecting with the > object prefixes (nech-, mitz-, c/qui-, tech-, amech-, quim-), provides such an economical and visual metaphor that it is clear you approach a language from a "10,000 meter overhead view," rather than wandering from the side into a vast and dark forest, which as an amateur is what I do. But OF COURSE the number of combinations becomes "two-dimensional" when shifting to the transitive and what an obvious and practical way of generating pragmatic "challenges" for conjugation (for either a learner or an algorithm--although what is a learner but an algorithm with nacatl on it ;-)). So instead of blindly stumbling upon useful expressions for quotidian use over an indeterminate period of time, here is a way of methodically building up skill and compacting time. That must be so clear to linguists that I'm just confirming my idiocy by noting that it took your example for this to dawn on me! (To borrow one of my favorite expressions from Do?a Luz: "Ican Ricardo coza titicuintli amo quimatia tlen quichihua." :-/ ) Your casual comment has given me some immediately useful ideas for both programming and learning (am currently working on a forest preservation project in Los Chimalapas and Selva Zoque where it would be very handy not to have to force the local collaborators into Spanish. Many years ago I got a decent start with Lacand?n Maya, so I can entertain Maya of the isthmus to distraction, but I'd like to actually communicate ;-). (There are many refugees from Chiapas streaming into the forest, which is part of the issue). > I needed a large set of exercise items. Was I going to laboriously > write all these out in the present, future, and preterit? ...Maybe on > purple ditto masters? ... > So I punched a large set of verb stems on those 80 column cards and > wrote a program to generate all the possible verb forms in three > tenses ... > certain "irregularities" had to be built into the program ... > (There was no hard disk and no floppies...) Ummm.... now that there ARE hard disks, are those algorithms still lying about someplace? What a fabulous learning tool! I see from the IU catalog that Nahuatl is no longer taught, so perhaps you've not had a reason to maintain/update such methods, but they are so obviously suited to the WWW that it would be handy for the Nahuatl Home Page to sport such support for the many learners who are trolling electronically for authoritative didactic material. The moment I type that I want to hasten to say I'm not urging this, the last thing I intend is to distract you from the fascinating integrative Molina project you described the other day, the Florentine work, and the other things you are doing, but if things are just lying around and could readily be adapted... I see your department is currently searching for a computational/natural language processing linguist, and these days folks like that are probably legion and would find it child's play to update and generate such a tool for the web (along the lines of what Jonathan Amith started putting up at Yale a short while back.) Incidentally, the irregularities you described were very interesting, particularly "/k/ --> [g] intervocally." I see I've been unnecessarily rough on some of the folks to whom I've passed along tips for Puebla valley Nahuatl, whereas I should've instead just said "that's alright, that's the way they say it in Hueyapan" (just go across the volcano! :-). > Now my cackle has subsided into a chuckle, but I am still enjoying the > shared experience, even the situation later when I was speaking to > people from Hueyapan in Nahuatl (partly because I became influenced by > "classical" Nahuatl) and made a non-Hueyapan verb like 'ninokopa', > they removed my embarrassment at the error by saying, "No, no, esta' > bien, asi' hablan en Santa Cruz". How utterly and typically gracious. Glad to have stimulated pleasant memories and to have provided some amusement. OK, yotlan. > Joe > (Cencah Xochichil) Your story on this and your word list from yesterday have provided the perfect epigram for me to wear on the back of MY belt: Cuitlapilyahualtic. Hasta moztla. Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From clayton at indiana.edu Sat Jan 11 22:49:09 2003 From: clayton at indiana.edu (mary l. clayton) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 17:49:09 -0500 Subject: FW: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: <7f116f7e9aa2.7e9aa27f116f@icomcast.net> Message-ID: Dear Scott, Let me assure you that you misunderstand. When Joe and I (I'm Joe Campbell's wife, also "into" Nahuatl, though I don't know nearly what he does) first saw Ricardo Salvador's message, we both said "Wow, look at how much time and effort he put into that!" Up to this point, I think many people on Nahuat-l have had the same impression about the exchanges concerning Citlalin Xochime's website that I have had: namely, that this is the internet at its best. People who never would have come upon each other in the real world have a common interest and meet in cyberspace. Those who are eager for knowledge are able to get it from those who are eager to share what they love. (and in many cases, the exchange is mutual. The same people can both teach and learn.) I think that a number of people on Nahuat-l were impressed with the diligence and earnestness exhibited by your teachers and therefore were willing to take the time to offer their help. I was impressed with both the graciousness of Ricardo's message and the graciousness with which Citlalin Xochime received it. No one is "throwing stones"; no one is "browbeating". Professors work for a living and have many demands on their time. They are almost *always* willing to help those who seriously want to learn. But they certainly don't see any sport in criticizing amateurs. Why would we? Over the years, there has been a small number of bothersome people on Nahuat-l who complain about everyone, have political views that become obtrusive, or whatever. For that, we have the Delete key. No time for criticism. Criticism -- and you should understand that this is CONSTRUCTIVE criticism -- is a both a favor and a compliment. It says "I take you seriously. Therefore I am willing to help you." In my opinion, Citlalin Xochime has shown one of the traits of a true scholar (or for that matter, a good basketball player or musician): she can say "ok, I have things to learn and I am anxious to learn them, so I accept your help". You get to decide whether you want to be like her or whether you will simply fall victim to the delete key. Mary On Sat, 11 Jan 2003, scott wrote: > > Professor Salvador, > > > I am a student in the beginning stages of learning the Nahuatl > language on www.nahuatl.info. I have also assisted Ms. Xochime ...... > yourself. Watch throwing those stones in glass houses....you > know what happens. > ..... > Now, an observation. Over all, your voluminous attempted > browbeating of Ms. Xochime's work sounded scholarly, but > smacked of polite condescension powered by a person with an > ego issue themselves. I am all too familiar with those who have > feathered their nests warmly in the comfortable recesses of > academia. Often, they sit like vultures on the sidelines, springing > to attack, criticize and dissemble the work of anyone who dares > stick their neck out and actually do something to try and better their > world. A sad thing, that. It is eerily reminiscent behavior of the > limousine liberal, who feels that any identity movement > automatically fosters supremacy and racism; and that any effort or > opinion not supported by those in the ivory towers is wrong or > misled, by that dubious virtue. > > > Sincerely, > > Scott Jorgensen > > > From salvador at iastate.edu Sat Jan 11 23:42:08 2003 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 17:42:08 -0600 Subject: nahuatl.info for nahuatl info? In-Reply-To: <7f116f7e9aa2.7e9aa27f116f@icomcast.net> Message-ID: Hello Scott, Good to make your acquaintance. We clearly share the same objectives: to support learning about Nahuatl language and culture. Someone who merely wished to discount your efforts on the nahuatl.info site could have done so without taking the time to suggest a number ways (and resources) to improve the accuracy and value of the site. In fact, the site speaks volumes about the energy and dedication that you and Citlalin have invested. I assumed the best about your intentions to provide an accurate and reliable site for the learning of Nahuatl (Ometeotl knows we need as much of this as we can get ;-)), which is why I took the time and effort to review and critique (as did others on this list.) > You state, and Citlalin Xochime cites, that the sound sample she > edited (The Day Count) was yours posted some time ago. You need to > understand why she even added her voice at all. I am a professional > multimedia artist, and can tell you without hesitation that Ms. > Xochime did not add her voice because she felt she was any kind of > expert, but simply because the quality of your original recording > sample is extraordinarily awfull. Sorry about that ;-). As a multimedia specialist, you'll probably enjoy the story. The year was probably 1994, the WWW was just getting off the ground and I was fascinated with the facility it provided for sharing multimedia content across the wires. That site was put up impulsively, in a single evening, if I remember correctly. I was just playing with my new toys and the "tech" I used was a Mac IIcx equipped with a microphone. I'm sure you can understand that for that technical reason, and because the main purpose of the page featuring the recordings was to explain the tonalpohualli, not the Nahuatl language, it never occurred to me that anyone would want to use this for Nahuatl learning purposes. I understand, as you say, that Nahuatl audio is scarce online and that is why even such sparse material is valuable. However, I did do a bit of sleuthing recently and forwarded my suggestions for more and better recordings that can now be found on the WWW. Furthermore, with a bit of good will, and a commitment to respect accuracy and legitimacy, these types of merely technical limitations could be amended directly ;-). BTW, the original recording was a huge .au file, no one dreamed of such a thing as MP3 format compression at that time ;-). One last thing about this. You say that the site cites the source of that audio. I must have missed that attribution, and I raise this (don't misinterpret) because my name and e-mail address are easily obtained from the source site and I would have welcomed your contacting me about the quality of my materials for your purposes (plenty of others contact me regularly to complain, I mean comment, about my web materials ;-)). > You treat history as if it's a chemical chain reaction, easily > observable in laboratory conditions to establish a scientific truth. > Well, it's not. History is not a science - it is an art. To be > honest, history is "mythologized" ten minutes after its creation in > most cases It is indisputable that, as a human activity, documentary history is prone to human fallibility. It doesn't follow from this that we can't know anything about the past and that therefore we can make up whatever we please. I won't deal with the aspect of historiography, but if you'll recall, what I attempted to explain was the pitfall of compounding poor knowledge with more poor knowledge. That was factual, not condescendent, critique, as a cursory inspection of the content of the nahuatl.info site will demonstrate. Further, note that this critique was complemented with concrete suggestions for more trustworthy sources and materials. A friend who has been observing the development of this dialogue, and whose privacy I'll respect, wrote recently saying "It has always seemed to me that real stuff--including Nahuatl grammar--is inevitably more amazing than anything we could possibly think up on our own." I couldn't agree more with this and I remit it to your attention with the most earnest good will. All those of us who have interest and respect for the Nahuatl tradition have much to share in the way of mutual support, and I again extend that to you on those terms. However, it must also be said that such positive exchange cannot be facilitated by manifestly spurious ideologies as are expressed by people who at one time can decry present-day colonialism while idealizing past colonialists, or oppose today's war mongers and exalt yesterday's war mongers, and who ultimately dither with the commonplace human penchant for replacing one type of racism with another. This is to say nothing of the astonishing mystical current permeating the discourse of many participants in the nahuatl.info fora to the effect that there are long-lost Aztecs trapped inside their bodies and that their genes or something are now awakening them to long forgotten Nahuatl words they once knew, or to a heritage that they've been fooled into forgetting. I repeat that the truth is without exception more interesting than myth. It is admirable that we should be interested in discovering and fleshing out our personal heritage and an honest effort in this will provide much satisfaction to most of us. As far as young Mexican-Americans are concerned, it is my opinion that the first step is not to act as if the last 6 centuries hadn't happened. Secondly, there is ample demographic, historical and statistical cause to recognize that the majority of present-day Mexicans, to the extent that they share significant native ancestry, descend from any number of aboriginal peoples, and that only a vanishing proportion of them have any claim to specific Aztec ancestry, and thereby it is the height of irony that the former should invest such an enormous sense of pride in identifying with a people who, in the pre-Hispanic era that they idealize, were actually the VICTIMS of the Mexica. There is plenty to discover and celebrate in pre-Hispanic Mesoamerican culure and history (as there is in post-conquest Mexico, I would argue), and that pursuit is the more unfettered and rewarding if it is executed free of stultifying fictions. > Now, an observation. Over all, your voluminous attempted browbeating > of Ms. Xochime's work sounded scholarly, but smacked of polite > condescension powered by a person with an ego issue themselves. I am > all too familiar with those who have feathered their nests warmly in > the comfortable recesses of academia. Often, they sit like vultures > on the sidelines, springing to attack, criticize and dissemble the > work of anyone who dares stick their neck out and actually do > something to try and better their world. A sad thing, that. It is > eerily reminiscent behavior of the limousine liberal, who feels that > any identity movement automatically fosters supremacy and racism; and > that any effort or opinion not supported by those in the ivory towers > is wrong or misled, by that dubious virtue. Scott, I am the first to recognize that lengthy jeremiads online can easily be read as pedantry. Generating more of the same is not likely to ameliorate the matter. This public list devoted to Nahuatl is not the place to joust over the disembodied psychosocial impressions that mere words allow us to form of one another. Due to the values reflected in your paragraph above, I think that in person we'd find much more in common than you might expect. I've written to Citlalin off-list to wish her the best with her efforts, and I extend these same good wishes to you. Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sun Jan 12 18:30:34 2003 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 12:30:34 -0600 Subject: Critical thinking Message-ID: Scott Jorgensen wrote: >Secondly, a thought or two about your charge that Ms. Xochime is "mythologizing" history. You treat history as if it's a chemical chain reaction, easily observable in laboratory conditions to establish a scientific truth. Well, it's not. History is not a science - it is an art. To be honest, history is "mythologized" ten minutes after its creation in most cases. Regardless of how many resources you have to back up your opinions on historical matters, you do not have the empirical truth of what exactly occured for any historical event. In short, you are just another person with an opinion. Educated, yes - but opinion nonetheless. Scott: I think it's safe to say that most people you meet on academic discussion lists take it for granted that there are certain ground rules in scholarly inquiry; without these the discussions taking place would quickly become pointless. I recommend anthropologist's James Lett's article "A field guide to critical thinking", published in the winter 1990 issue of the _Skeptical inquirer_, for starters. After that astronomer Carl Sagan's chapter "The fine art of baloney detection" in _The demon-haunted world: science as a candle in the dark_ (New York, Random House, 1995) would be a good place to continue. Both say essentially the same thing, Lett in a more concise way, Sagan in more detail. These basic rules con be profitably applied to the study of just about anything, from art, literature, culture and history to medicine and physics. Lett's article is available on-line: http://www.csicop.org/si/9012/critical-thinking.html There are several summaries of Sagan's "baloney detection kit" on-line: http://www.xenu.net/archive/baloney_detection.html http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/baloney.htm http://www.carlsagan.com/revamp/carlsagan/baloney.html http://www.jonathanknowles.com/balony.html Sincerely, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From notoca at hotmail.com Mon Jan 13 04:05:01 2003 From: notoca at hotmail.com (Chi:chi:ltic Coyo:tl) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:05:01 +0800 Subject: Star Traveller Message-ID: Hi I recently came across this word for astronaut: Ci:ci:tlaltepoza:calpanoni. Literally it translates "Stars Metal Boat Passenger". Ci:ci:tlaltin - Stars Tepoztli - Metal A:calli - Boat (sea canoe) Panoni - Boat Passenger CC _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Mon Jan 13 07:44:20 2003 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:44:20 -0000 Subject: Star Traveller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 13 Jan 2003, at 12:05, Chi:chi:ltic Coyo:tl wrote: > I recently came across this word for astronaut: Ci:ci:tlaltepoza:calpanoni. > Literally it translates "Stars Metal Boat Passenger". > Ci:ci:tlaltin - Stars > Tepoztli - Metal > A:calli - Boat (sea canoe) > Panoni - Boat Passenger Or for day-to-day practical use shorten it to Ci:tlalpanoni? Ci:tlalya:ni From michael.boyland at wciu.edu Mon Jan 13 17:47:59 2003 From: michael.boyland at wciu.edu (Michael Boyland) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:47:59 -0800 Subject: Unsubscribe Message-ID: Please take me off the Nahuatl email list. Michael Boyland From notoca at hotmail.com Tue Jan 14 12:18:55 2003 From: notoca at hotmail.com (Chi:chi:ltic Coyo:tl) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 20:18:55 +0800 Subject: Audio Nahuatl Message-ID: Hi I can't vouch for this, however, I thought I'd bring it to the attention of those interested in the possibility of hearing nahuatl spoken. I noticed very recently a book being sold in the zocalo in Mexico City called, "!Ma'titla'tocan Nahualla'tolli! !Hablemos Nahuatl!". It has a series of dialogs in it and is accompanied by two audio cassettes which are the spoken version of the written dialogs. The teacher is Jose Concepcion Flores (Xochime') with the assistance of Esperanza Meneses Minor. The book and the cassette are in Spanish and Nahuatl. That's all the info I have, so I cannot say how good it is. Perhaps someone else has checked out this resource and can comment on it. cc >From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk >To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu >Subject: Re: Star Traveller >Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:44:20 -0000 > >On 13 Jan 2003, at 12:05, Chi:chi:ltic Coyo:tl wrote: > > I recently came across this word for astronaut: >Ci:ci:tlaltepoza:calpanoni. > > Literally it translates "Stars Metal Boat Passenger". > > Ci:ci:tlaltin - Stars > > Tepoztli - Metal > > A:calli - Boat (sea canoe) > > Panoni - Boat Passenger > >Or for day-to-day practical use shorten it to Ci:tlalpanoni? > >Ci:tlalya:ni _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dgomez at abqpubco.com Tue Jan 14 08:24:37 2003 From: dgomez at abqpubco.com (David Gomez) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 08:24:37 +0000 Subject: Maestro Xochime Message-ID: I have the workbook and CD. I think its pretty good, though the pronunciation does not always match up to the Nawatl variant from Morelos whch I am currently studying. I would suggest picking up a copy in the Zocalo. From jmchavar at itesm.mx Tue Jan 14 17:03:01 2003 From: jmchavar at itesm.mx (jmchavar at itesm.mx) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 17:03:01 +0000 Subject: Nahuatl pronunciation on TV In-Reply-To: <3E1FF3A0.380.E7D6D8@localhost> Message-ID: >Yesterday on TV here in England I saw a program about the Aztec >Empire. I didn't think much of the participants' pronunciation of >Aztec place names:- >'x' in [Texcoco] as in "box". >`ch' in [Tenochtitlan] as in German. >`x' in [Tlaxcala] as `th' in "thing". Almost everyone in Mexico City pronounce Tlaxcala, Texcoco, Xochimilco, Mixocac and other words with the "x" as "s". But many nahuatlatos pronuonce "x" as "sh". From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Jan 14 17:09:44 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 11:09:44 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl pronunciation on TV In-Reply-To: <3E1ABF6D00002D58@mailserver2.itesm.mx> Message-ID: At 05:03 PM 1/14/03 +0000, jmchavar at itesm.mx wrote: >Almost everyone in Mexico City pronounce Tlaxcala, Texcoco, Xochimilco, >Mixocac and other words with the "x" as "s" I wouldn't go that far. Xochimilco is still normally pronounced show - chee - MEEL - co at least among the folks I hang out with. Certainly among all the girls, big and little, names Xochitl, the name is usually pronounced with the -sh- not a simple -s- John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From jmchavar at itesm.mx Tue Jan 14 17:56:46 2003 From: jmchavar at itesm.mx (jmchavar at itesm.mx) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 11:56:46 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl pronunciation on TV In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030114110718.02b6c940@cda.mrs.umn.edu> Message-ID: >>Almost everyone in Mexico City pronounce Tlaxcala, Texcoco, Xochimilco, >>Mixocac and other words with the "x" as "s" > >I wouldn't go that far. Xochimilco is still normally pronounced show - >chee - MEEL - co at least among the folks I hang out with. Certainly >among all the girls, big and little, names Xochitl, the name is usually >pronounced with the -sh- not a simple -s- Yes, there are few, very few chilangos that pronounce |shochimilco| and also |shochitl|, I'm one of them; but in normal conversations, radio and television, it's pronounced |sochimilco|, by children, students, workers of all kind of jobs, politicians, teachers, etc. There are places whose name is pronounced "correctly" like "xola" and "mixiuhca". Another interesting thing about actual pronunciation of place names is that the accent has changed its place from the silabe before the last to the last. For example: Atizapan, Cuauhtitlan, Ehecatepec, Chapultepec, etc. From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Tue Jan 14 23:06:12 2003 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 23:06:12 -0000 Subject: Maestro Xochime In-Reply-To: <3E23C945.B6FDCB3B@abqpubco.com> Message-ID: On 14 Jan 2003, at 8:24, David Gomez wrote: > I have the workbook and CD. I think its pretty good, though the > pronunciation does not always match up to the Nawatl variant from > Morelos whch I am currently studying. I would suggest picking up a copy > in the Zocalo. Likely by now, if Nahuatl had defeated Spanish and become the general language of modern Mexico, standard Tenochtitlanian Nahuatl would have replaced many of the regional dialects by now. From nahuatl at nahuatl.info Thu Jan 16 18:12:27 2003 From: nahuatl at nahuatl.info (nahuatl at nahuatl.info) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:12:27 -0800 Subject: On Taking a Nahuatl Name Message-ID: Subject: On Taking a Nahuatl Name Last year I legally changed my name to the Nahuatl name of ?Citlalin Xochime.? Recently, it was pointed out to me that my name should be ?Citlalxochimeh,? and I wholeheartedly agree with this grammatical ?correction factor.? However, I live in the United States where a last or ?surname? is required unless you are somebody like ?Madonna? or ?Sting.? One cannot function in American society without possessing a ?last name.? In any event, I could have selected ?Citlalxochimeh? as both a ?first? and ?last? name, however this seemed just plain silly to me, hence my selection for the Nahuatl name of ?Citlalin Xochime.? As far as dropping the ?h? near the end of ?xochimeh,? well, that is just the result of the little rebel inside of me that wishes not to conform completely to ?the book.? Well, I do not wish to appear to be an ego miser here, but I did make the local news about taking on a Nahuatl name (if anyone is interested): http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,405021521,00.html Also, if anyone else is interested in taking on a Nahuatl name, I encourage you to do so. I don?t like being the only one (female) with a Nahuatl name, and I?ve gone to great lengths to produce and to make available online a ?free? name change kit. The kit includes all documents (a $30) value to file a ?Name Change? petition in the United States. One may access my Name Change kit at: http://www.zorrah.net/NameChange.htm My regards, Citlalin Xochime http://www.nahuatl.info From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Thu Jan 16 19:32:52 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:32:52 -0600 Subject: Newbie questions. Message-ID: I want to ask experts and non experts here what their thoughts are about what dialect of nahuatl one should learn given that: -I'm mexican, spanish is my first language (for 30 years) -I'm a fluent english speaker. (7 years) -I just want to learn for no reason, so i don't really have a preference for a dialect in particular. I would like to learn Classical Nahuatl, but, is that possible? (Is there enough material to learn and carry on a conversation with anotherone who learns the same?) If one learns a dialect, which would be the closest to clasical nahuatl? Which one would be the one spoken by more people? If one learns classical or any other dialect of nahuatl, would it be possible to comunicate with someone that speaks another dialect? Thankyou very much in advance. From salvador at iastate.edu Thu Jan 16 21:08:48 2003 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 15:08:48 -0600 Subject: Newbie questions. In-Reply-To: <200301161332.52173.awallace@rwsoft-online.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 01:32 PM, Alexander Wallace wrote: > I would like to learn Classical Nahuatl, but, is that possible? (Is > there > enough material to learn and carry on a conversation with anotherone > who > learns the same?) > > If one learns a dialect, which would be the closest to clasical > nahuatl? Which > one would be the one spoken by more people? > > If one learns classical or any other dialect of nahuatl, would it be > possible > to comunicate with someone that speaks another dialect? Hello Alexander, Sure you can learn classical Nahuatl. There are plenty of materials and scholarship to support that learning. Learning to SPEAK classical Nahuatl will be a more equivocal exercise, since we have no living speakers to either facilitate your learning or provide a standard for pronunciation, but your fundamental question is whether learning the classical language would help you understand present-day speakers. I would say that as long as you're not learning any specific dialect, then learning classical Nahuatl would certainly give you the foundation needed to quickly acquire a number of contemporary dialects. Since you know Spanish, one source for classical Nahuatl grammar and several texts that you may find useful is Llave del Nahuatl, by Angel Maria Garibay Kintana. It is available from Porr?a Hnos. for $60 pesos or $6.38 USD plus shipping. See: http://www.porrua.com/general/libros/Det_Libro.asp?CodBar=9789700728759 One way of thinking about what you propose is to apply the same question to English. Go back 500 years and you're in Elizabethan times. You're asking the equivalent of whether you can learn Elizabethan English and whether other English speakers would be able to understand you. Since you seem to be interested in this primarily for the exercise, the following may not be relevant to you, but I think the best setting for learning a language is via immersion among its speakers. That is no shattering insight, but if you are writing from central Mexico you would certainly have the opportunity of doing that in any number of places. Some time back another subscriber asked questions in a similar vein and I quote that discussion below. Some of the content is a bit dated, but it addresses much of what you've asked. > From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) > Date: Mon Sep 30, 1996 11:01:50 AM US/Central > To: nahuat-l at server.umt.edu > Subject: Re: ?nahuatl's alleged musical qualities > > jacob.baltuch at infoboard.be (Jacob Baltuch) writes: > >> 1. are there any _tapes_ for nawatl? it's easy to come up with lots of >> written materials but so far i haven't seen any audio, which to me >> is the most important when learning a foreign language (esp. when >> beginning to learn one) > > There are no systematic recordings of Nahuatl that are available > through commercial channels, as far as I'm aware. Scholars and > linguists have their own recordings, made for specific purposes, > though in most of their cases it would be troublesome to make these > generally available, for both logistic and ethical reasons. > >> 2. since there are supposedly 16 dialects of nahuatl (17 if you >> include >> pipil but i don't know if that is considered a nahuatl dialect) > > Yes, most decidedly Pipil is a Nahuatl dialect. > >> a) how mutually intelligible are they? > > I'm sure the linguistics group has its measures of "distance" among > the dialects, but my limited, lay experience with the dialects of > central Mexico is that while there are many variants that are "strong" > dialects (easily distinguished on clearly defined bases) they are all > still mutually intelligible (i.e., none has become "Dutch" yet, ;-) ). > One reason for this is, for good or ill,the strong syncretism with > Spanish, which is often not the "bridge" of last resort, but of first > resort when folks from different communities speak with one another. > So, when you have need to express something new, or something old in a > novel way, you don't necessarily innovate within Nahuatl, but simply > borrow from Spanish. > >> b) which one are you supposed to take as your model if you >> study >> nahuatl as a foreign language and why? > > THAT is the question, exactly. One cannot possibly answer this on an > objective basis. In fact what IS most often studied by outsiders > happens to be central Mexican, either from Morelos or Mexico state, > and the reasons are that due to certain historical community features, > fanned by interactions with scholars, the Nahuatl-speaking identity of > folks in some of these communities is unusually strong (e.g., > Tepoztlan, Milpa Alta, etc.), and therefore favorable for structured > courses of learning. But the reality is, plain and simple, there are > MANY versions of Nahuatl.What you learn will be decided by both your > intended purpose and your access to learning environment/tools. > >> c) are there attempts at standardisation within the nahuatl >> speaking >> community, e.g. for writing or inter-dialect communication? > > None within the Nahuatl-speaking community, and the reasons are > complex, but the primary reason is that there is no > "pan-Nahuatl-speaking" identity to speak of in Mexico. The very notion > is curious if you understand Mexico's unusual culture. You accomplish > quite a bit, as an outsider, to just pry from a native speaker that > she or he does in fact speak "dialecto," as it is something that in > majority culture is not prized, and can instead be used to brand > someone as backward. Much more to be said on this, but won't. > >> 3. is it true "nahuatl" means in nahuatl "harmonious, musical, having >> a pleasant sound"? >> is it true nahuatl speakers say of the sound of nahuatl that it is >> like "light birds flying off"? > > The part about "sonorous sound" I have READ, but never actually heard > from a native speaker. The metaphor I've seen in print is "sonorous, > as a babbling brook." You'd have quite a discussion on your hands to > inform many native speakers that they speak Nahuatl. In some areas > (such as the Morelos area alluded above) this wouldn't be so, but then > owing to acculturation. Most native speakers refer to their language > as "dialect," or as "Mexicano." > >> is it true nahuatl speakers, even uneducated and illiterate ones, >> all display an uncommon pride in their language and especially what >> they consider are its musical qualities? > > Go to Tepoztlan and you will find many folks who display "uncommon > pride in their langauge," but with most other speakers this would not > be the case. > >> 4. is there a good reference on the use of nahuatl in mexico today >> and the >> prospects for the future? > > Your question assumes a preocupation with the state of the language, > ergo the state and collective identity of its speakers, and a concern > for the preservation of the speakers, their culture and their > language. Nothing resembling this exists in Mexico. One can make a > very straight-faced argument that the only reason any native language > survives to this day in Mexico is due to the economic neglect and > marginalization of its speakers by the main stream culture. There are > some exceptions, historically based, such as the Zapotecs of > Tehuantepec, Oaxaca, and the Mayans of Yucatan state, where native > speakers have preserved their language and identity while > simultaneously integrating with the mainstream culture, but in the > majority of instances to find monolinguals, or true bilinguals in most > native languages, you must go to the hinterlands and find people who > have been isolated, exploited and forgotten, and that is why they > continue to preserve what they do of their ancestral cultural legacy. > This being so, there are only occasional Quixotic efforts, usually led > by middle-classed urbanites to somehow revive Nahuatl. > > These are my personal impressions, of course. The learned ought really > to complement or correct these views as they see fit. The specialists > on this list are in my estimation the best folks from whom to get a > reliable assessment of the issues you raise in this question. > >> 5. what little classical nahuatl poetry i've read gives me the >> feeling of >> having been originally meant to be sung. (i could go into a lengthy >> justification of this, but to keep it brief, there are certain >> repetitions, >> certain "exclamatory words" which seem to point to a musical >> delivery) >> if this is correct, do we have any idea what that music sounded >> like? >> (not specific melodies of specific poems, which are no doubt lost, >> but >> in a general way, what the music of aztec lyrical poetry sounded >> like) > > As far as we can now understand, your perception is very accurate, as > even in name poetry and song were strongly identified with one > another. Good reading on this is Leon-Portilla's recently revised > "Fifteen Poets of the Aztec World," Univ. of Oklahoma Press (a 1992 > update and translation of classic work long available in Spanish). Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From campbel at indiana.edu Thu Jan 16 21:44:11 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 16:44:11 -0500 Subject: Newbie questions. In-Reply-To: <200301161332.52173.awallace@rwsoft-online.com> Message-ID: Alejandrohtzin, I thought that I'd pass along to you my "parecer" -- and some of my prejudices. On what I think is your main point, there will be a difference of opinion if people take your question in a not totally literal way. First, everyone would agree on the fact that "classical" Nahuatl is no longer spoken, in the same sense that 16th century Mexican Spanish, 12th century Iberian Spanish, and 18th century American English are no longer spoken. Second, is modern Nahuatl very much like "classical" Nahuatl? Since most towns differ in their speech from other towns, the answer is gray, rather than black and white. A relatively complete answer on this would require some commentary from many silent members of the list, but on the basis on my contact with several dialects, there are some that are amazingly (for me) close to "classical" and others that differ considerably. Tepoztla'n, Morelos (back in the 60s) seemed fairly close to "classical", but the "line" of speaker/non-speaker has moved since then. Now the youngest Nahuatl speaker that I know of there is 70 and most people who really speak it are considerably older than him. Another close match is San Miguel Canoa, Puebla. Dialects that differ greatly from "classical" are, among others, Po'maro, Michoacan (one characteristic: has /l/ for /tl/), and San Agusti'n Oapan, Guerrero. The point that I am afraid that some people might disagree with is how worthwhile your study of "classical" would be for the purpose of communicating with people who speak modern dialects. I believe that studying "classical" Nahuatl is a valuable investment for various reasons. 1. The materials available to you in "classical" Nahuatl are extensive. In vocabulary, you have Molina's and Karttunen's dictionaries (not joint ones -- each did his or her own); in grammar, you have Carochi and Andrews; and for practice in reading text, you have (just as a starting point) Sahagun's 12 volume commentary done in the 16th century and translated into English facing by Dibble and Anderson in the 20th. In contrast, there is no modern dialect that offers you even a small percentage of this coverage. (((My wife, reading over my shoulder, insists that I add: "As an intro to "classical", you also have Campbell and Karttunen, _Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar." -- which was intended for *real* beginners.))) 2. "Help" that you derive in going from one dialect to another: when you go from the study of "classical" to any modern dialect, you will feel the constant support of familiar vocabulary and derivational suffixes. Of course, there are some differences, since languages do change, but the degree of conservatism is comforting. On the other hand, if you started with a "further-out" modern dialect, going to another dialect would present more difficulties. I think of it with the "hub and spoke" metaphor: if you start at the hub, each spoke is immediately related to what you know, but if you start "way out there" on any arbitrary spoke, who knows how much that spoke is going to contribute your learning the next one? May your ohtli be chipahuac and not alactic, Joe From karttu at nantucket.net Thu Jan 16 21:32:31 2003 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 16:32:31 -0500 Subject: Another suggestion Message-ID: There is a very good, readable book by Jane and Kenneth Hill titled "Speaking Mexicano" that addresses some of the questions raised about language attitude, Nahuatl identity, etc. It may be out of print, but it's certainly available through interlibrary loan, and I heartily recommend it. From juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at Fri Jan 17 00:16:16 2003 From: juergen.stowasser at univie.ac.at (Juergen Stowasser) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 01:16:16 +0100 Subject: Another suggestion Message-ID: there is a spanish translation available: "hablando mexicano" (ciesas: m?xico, 1999) best Frances Karttunen schrieb: > There is a very good, readable book by Jane and Kenneth Hill titled > "Speaking Mexicano" that addresses some of the questions raised about > language attitude, Nahuatl identity, etc. > > It may be out of print, but it's certainly available through interlibrary > loan, and I heartily recommend it. -- Juergen Stowasser Burggasse 114/2/8 A-1070 Wien - Vien(n)a Austria tel: (0043-1)-99 03 673 mobil: 0676/ 905 89 27 v 0676/ 398 66 79 fax: (0043-1)-99 03 673 http://www.univie.ac.at/meso From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Jan 16 22:48:41 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 16:48:41 -0600 Subject: Newbie questions. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 04:44 PM 1/16/03 -0500, r. joe campbell wrote: >"As an intro to "classical", you also have Campbell >and Karttunen, _Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar." -- which was >intended for *real* beginners.))) This is available through my office. See the Nahuatl web site: http://www.mrs.umn.edu/academic/history/Nahuatl/hotlinks.htm John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Fri Jan 17 00:21:04 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 18:21:04 -0600 Subject: Newbie questions. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I want to thank you here and all others (publicly since i may have done it privately not realizing it) that responded to my questios, and in advance to those who will. You form a great list and I received very good advice from all of you. Everybody's insight in the matter seems pretty homogeneous with a few variants here and there, like. And you pretty much told me what I wanted to hear :) Thanks a lot again! I'm sure I'll be asking y'all a lot of questions! Tlazocamatzin On Thursday 16 January 2003 15:44, r. joe campbell wrote: > Alejandrohtzin, > > I thought that I'd pass along to you my "parecer" -- and some of my > prejudices. On what I think is your main point, there will be a > difference of opinion if people take your question in a not totally > literal way. > > First, everyone would agree on the fact that "classical" Nahuatl is no > longer spoken, in the same sense that 16th century Mexican Spanish, 12th > century Iberian Spanish, and 18th century American English are no longer > spoken. > > Second, is modern Nahuatl very much like "classical" Nahuatl? Since > most towns differ in their speech from other towns, the answer is gray, > rather than black and white. A relatively complete answer on this would > require some commentary from many silent members of the list, but on the > basis on my contact with several dialects, there are some that are > amazingly (for me) close to "classical" and others that differ > considerably. > Tepoztla'n, Morelos (back in the 60s) seemed fairly close to > "classical", but the "line" of speaker/non-speaker has moved since then. > Now the youngest Nahuatl speaker that I know of there is 70 and most > people who really speak it are considerably older than him. Another close > match is San Miguel Canoa, Puebla. > Dialects that differ greatly from "classical" are, among others, > Po'maro, Michoacan (one characteristic: has /l/ for /tl/), and San > Agusti'n Oapan, Guerrero. > > The point that I am afraid that some people might disagree with is how > worthwhile your study of "classical" would be for the purpose of > communicating with people who speak modern dialects. I believe that > studying "classical" Nahuatl is a valuable investment for various reasons. > > 1. The materials available to you in "classical" Nahuatl are extensive. > In vocabulary, you have Molina's and Karttunen's dictionaries (not joint > ones -- each did his or her own); in grammar, you have Carochi and > Andrews; and for practice in reading text, you have (just as a starting > point) Sahagun's 12 volume commentary done in the 16th century and > translated into English facing by Dibble and Anderson in the 20th. > In contrast, there is no modern dialect that offers you even a small > percentage of this coverage. (((My wife, reading over my shoulder, > insists that I add: "As an intro to "classical", you also have Campbell > and Karttunen, _Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar." -- which was > intended for *real* beginners.))) > > 2. "Help" that you derive in going from one dialect to another: when you > go from the study of "classical" to any modern dialect, you will feel the > constant support of familiar vocabulary and derivational suffixes. Of > course, there are some differences, since languages do change, but the > degree of conservatism is comforting. On the other hand, if you started > with a "further-out" modern dialect, going to another dialect would > present more difficulties. I think of it with the "hub and spoke" > metaphor: if you start at the hub, each spoke is immediately related to > what you know, but if you start "way out there" on any arbitrary spoke, > who knows how much that spoke is going to contribute your learning the > next one? > > May your ohtli be chipahuac and not alactic, > > Joe From nahuatl at nahuatl.info Fri Jan 17 05:29:33 2003 From: nahuatl at nahuatl.info (nahuatl at nahuatl.info) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:29:33 -0800 Subject: Does chancles = slippers? Message-ID: Does chancles = slippers? The word that I learned as a child that translates as "slippers" was spoken in our home as "chancles." Is it possible that this word originates from Nahuatl chantli (home) + cactli (shoe). I also see in Kartunnen's dictionary that "cacles" has the meaning of "shoe." Is the word (chan/cles) the result of combining (chan/tli) plus (ca/cles)? I know "cactli" would not be separated as such: (ca/ctli) However, could Spanish influence result in cac/tli changing to ca/cles? And as a result, the word "chancles" would then really mean "home shoes," thus expressed to have the same meaning as "slippers"? Anyone? citlalin xochime Now I must learn like a child what it means to be a woven cloth of Mexihcayotl. From salvador at iastate.edu Fri Jan 17 14:21:04 2003 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:21:04 -0600 Subject: Does chancles = slippers? In-Reply-To: <33493.12.254.209.145.1042781373.squirrel@www.nahuatl.info> Message-ID: On Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 11:29 PM, wrote: > Does chancles = slippers? To a Spanish speaker, chanclas refers to the general class of "non-formal" footwear. It could apply to comfy houseshoes I suppose, but it usually refers to sandals. > The word that I learned as a child that translates as "slippers" was > spoken > in our home as "chancles." In Mexico it is "chanclas." BTW, in central Mexico you can also tell someone you're coming as soon as you get your "cacles" on, and be understood. Though "cacles" in Nahuatl refers to footwear in general, when used by Spanish speakers it usually means a proper shoe. > Is it possible that this word originates from Nahuatl chantli (home) + > cactli (shoe) I'd say it isn't likely for a number of reasons: (1) It is no problem to say "house shoe" literally in Nahuatl, if that is what you want to say: calcactli (calcacmeh). (2) Compounds are usually formed with the roots of nouns, so a putative [chan + tli] + [ cac + tli] = chan-(c)-(l)-a just wouldn't work grammatically (the parentheses denote the putative remnants of a root.) To put it another way, a monolingual speaker of Nahuatl wouldn't know what to make of the last half of your word (or they might judge that you're either a learner, a poor speaker or from a different village, and that you really mean a housing subdivision (chantla), but then they'd wonder what that has to do with your feet ;-)). (3) A native speaker of Nahuatl would be very clear about the distinction between her home (chantli) and her house (calli). Your putative compound would map to "home shoes," which is actually not that awkward (chancacmeh), but it is unlikely. (4) The Royal Academy of the Spanish Language zealously tracks "Americanisms," and their etymology for "chanclas" goes in a different direction. They trace it through "chanca" to late Latin "zanca," and that in turn to ancient Persian "zanga" (see www.rae.es). Just as a matter of interest, the meaning of this word is "leg," and it is still used in that way in modern Spanish.The connection to sandals may have been the Persian style of lacing sandals all the way up your lower leg. One last quick comment about this. "CL" to "TL" would be a major switch for a native Nahuatl speaker. You must remember that "TL" is a key sound, a frequent letter if you will, in Nahuatl. "CL" to a "classic" speaker would have been very strange. To a native speaker it would stand out as much as a german pronouncing an umlaut would stand out to you. This isn't to say that this switch isn't possible in a contemporary dialect. There is a good discussion here about the changes in modern dialects and the myriad forces and influences that can shape them, but that is not what you asked about and there are plenty of people who know way more about that. Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3398 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Fri Jan 17 14:34:57 2003 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:34:57 -0600 Subject: Does chancles = slippers? Message-ID: Citlalin: The usual form is "chanclas" or "chancletas". The 21st edition of the Real Academia's Diccionario de la Lengua Espa?ola derives the latter from the former, and the former from "chanca", which they say is onomatopoeic and has the same meaning. However Guido G'omez de Silva, in his Breve Diccionario Etimol'ogico de la Lengua Espa?ola, suspects that the L in "chancla" is due to influence from another Spanish word for sandal, "choclo", and that "chanca" derives from "zanca", meaning "long legs", among other things (by the way, mosquitoes in central Mexico are called "zancudos", "long-legged ones"). Sebasti'an de Covarrubias (sic) Orozco, in his 1611 Tesoro de la Lengua Castellana o Espa?ola, derives "chancletas" from "zanco": "y dij'eronse chancletas, quasi zancletas, de zanco, porque llevamos descubierto el tal'on, que se llama zanco" ("and they were called 'chancletas', almost 'zancletas', from 'zanco', because we have our heel, called 'zanco', uncovered.") (I've modernized Covarrubias' spelling.) Covarrubias derives "zanco" from an Arab word for "foot" or "leg"; G'omez has it coming from Indo-European through Persia; the Real Academia says it's onomatopoeia, from "zanc", supposedly a stepping sound. So it looks like you can chalk this one up to your Spanish linguistic heritage. Peace, David P.S. To be politically correct (which I'm often not, being an advocate for freedom of expression), "Spanish" should be called "Castilian", since there are four major Spanish languages: Basque, Castilian, Catalan and Galician; singling out one as *the* Spanish language is unfair to the other linguistic groups, reflecting centuries of internal colonialism and bringing up bad memories of the linguistically repressive policies of the Franco regime. When speaking Castilian I can get away with saying "castellano", but I've given up in English, because almost nobody understands me when I say "Castilian". I tried "Castilian Spanish" for a while, but that almost always produced questions like "What do you mean by *Castilian* Spanish?" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brettb at rajah.com Fri Jan 17 18:09:34 2003 From: brettb at rajah.com (Brett Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:09:34 -0800 Subject: Naive Questions Message-ID: How useful would a study of Nahuatl be to someone who is also interested in learning the Hopi Language? I am camped out on my land down in Holbrook near the Hopi and have family down in Aztec land... my cousins are fluent in Navajo, but I want to learn Hopi/Aztec for both archaeological and personal reasons... Is the book listed below still available from the same source (University of Minnesota)? My primary interest is in the Hisat'sinom ("Anasazi", an appellation I prefer not to use) and links between 'Arizuma' and the old Aztec. I may be half crazy, but hey, I'm also planning on living in a pithouse. ;*) Campbell, Joe R. and Frances Karttunen, Foundation Course in Nahuatl Grammar. Vol. I: Text and Exercises; vol. II: Vocabulary and Key (Missoula: University of Montana, 1997) 336p. & 272p. $40.00 for both volumes, shipping included Dr. J. F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean University of Minnesota, Morris Morris, MN 56267 Thanks for humoring me... Brett BaldEagle From ECOLING at aol.com Sat Jan 18 10:07:35 2003 From: ECOLING at aol.com (Lloyd Anderson) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 05:07:35 EST Subject: !! Nahua phonetic writing workshop Message-ID: Announcing a Nahua Phonetic Writing Workshop for Epigraphers We are pleased to announce a hands-on workshop in this exciting new field, led by its pioneers. The workshop will be held all day Saturday, 21 June, 20003, in Washington, D.C. This is the day before the 5th World Archaeology Congress, which some may wish to attend part of. The workshop will be led by Alfonso Lacadena, Universidad Complutense de Madrid, Spain, and S?ren Wichman, Dept. of General and Applied Linguistics, University of Copenhagen, Denmark with the assistance of Marc Zender, Dept. of Archaeology, Univ. of Calgary, Alberta, Canada The workshop registration is $85. Necessary materials will be provided. ***************************************************** Nahua written records vary in their degree of phonetic writing, some showing little, some like the Codex Santa Mar?a Asunci?n showing much phoneticism. As with Maya writing, this does not mean that there are different systems, but only that there were different scribal traditions. Taking this phonetic writing at its face value, it is possible to lay foundations of a new field of historical studies in Nahua writing. We can even to notice the reflections in written materials of differences between Eastern and Western Nahua dialects, as the name of the ruler spelled Tezoc rather than Tizoc. Alfonso Lacadena and S?ren Wichman are pioneers in laying these new foundations. They are assisted in this workshop by Marc Zender, an outstanding expert in Mayan glyphic writing. The workshop will be similar to Mayan hieroglyphic workshops. Participants will be assisted to make discoveries themselves and to learn methods of analysis, depending on the specifics of the written documents. Knowledge of the Nahua language is of course helpful, but is not required. Knowledge of linguistics is not required. Participants who are interested may ask about materials for learning basic Nahua. ***************************************************** Those interested in participating should reply as soon as possible, sending a check for $85 to reserve a place. Checks should be made out to Ecological Linguistics, and put "Nahua writing workshop" on the "for" line. The exact location is to be announced, but will be accessible via the Washington DC metro (subway). Information on reasonable lodgings can also be provided to those who wish it. Nahua Phonetic Writing Workshop c/o Lloyd Anderson Ecological Linguistics PO Box 15156 Washington, DC 20003 Inquiries can also be made by email or by phone (202) 547-7678. Those interested in attending the first two days of the 5th World Archaeological Congress, 22 and 23 June, 2003, where there are a number of sessions on ancient writing and on relations between oral and written traditions and archaeology, should also make that interest known immediately. Additional information will be available for those attending both the Nahua Writing workshop and the first two days of the WAC5 Congress. I am greatly looking forward to a fun time learning how the Aztecs and their kin wrote using puzzling and sometimes funny rebus puns, one glyph to mean something with a similar pronunciation but different meaning! Knowing even a little bit about this newly understood writing system may give us quite a different perspective on Maya or Mixtec writing or other parts of the enormous cultural traditions of Mesoamerica, one of the great civilizations of the world. Join us! From juanjose1 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 19 16:50:59 2003 From: juanjose1 at hotmail.com (Juan Jose) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 10:50:59 -0600 Subject: reforma.com Message-ID: reforma.com --- formato de impresi?n14 de ene. 2003 Manuel J. J?uregui M?xico, pieza clave Perm?tanos hoy, estimado lector, hacer una pausa respecto a los trillados temas pol?ticos y de similar ?ndole para platicarles de algo que nos fascina -y esperamos a ustedes tambi?n-, que es la historia. Nuestro M?xico, sin quererlo y -lo que es m?s simp?tico a?n- sin saberlo siquiera, est? jugando un papel protag?nico clave en una controversia que apenas inicia y que, para los historiadores y el p?blico en general, promete ser de gran envergadura y de enormes implicaciones, pues har? que se tiren a la basura los libros de texto de primaria en todo el mundo occidental. Tiene que ver nuestro tema, y mucho, con una tumba descubierta en Teotihuac?n en 1911 por el antrop?logo William Niven, concretamente con lo que el estadounidense encontr? ah?: los restos de un hombre precolombino de apenas un metro y medio de estatura, de rasgos orientales y supuestamente vestido y ornamentado a la usanza mongol. Este descubrimiento encaja con la publicaci?n reciente de un libro, producto de la investigaci?n que, por m?s de 10 a?os, efectu? el brit?nico ex comandante de submarino, Gavin Menzies, y que ha desatado una pol?mica enorme en los c?rculos literatos en todo el mundo. La editorial William Morrow ha puesto a la venta ya, de ah? el esc?ndalo, en forma de libro el resultado de la investigaci?n efectuada por este hombre menudo. El t?tulo de la obra dice por s? sola el por qu? de esta enorme polvareda: "1421: El A?o en que China Descubri? el Mundo", se titula. Y, en efecto, Menzies se propone comprobar que existe evidencia s?lida para afirmar que fueron los chinos, y no Crist?bal Col?n, quienes descubrieron el continente americano, adem?s de la Ant?rtica y Australia. Originalmente, Menzies pretend?a otra cosa: investigar los or?genes hist?ricos de la Gran Muralla y de la Ciudad Sagrada. Mientras esto hac?a, se top? con un mapa marino portugu?s que databa de 1424, en el cual ven?an dibujadas las islas del Caribe. Alguien, concluy? Menzies, conoci? el Occidente 70 a?os antes que Col?n. Pero, ?qui?n? Mayores indagaciones llevaron a Menzies a conocer y estudiar los escritos detallados que dej? un navegante y comerciante veneciano, Niccolo da Conti quien, en forma fortuita, coincidi? en un puerto comercial de la India con una armada expedicionaria de Naos, enviada por el emperador chino Zhu Di a conocer, mapear y traerle tributo de las tierras m?s all? del horizonte. Este hecho coincide con la fecha de terminaci?n tanto de la Gran Muralla como de la Ciudad Prohibida (1421). Ante esta evidencia, Menzies decidi? dejar a un lado su proyecto original y emprender la investigaci?n que lo llevar?a a comprobar -seg?n ?l- que los chinos se le adelantaron a los europeos cuando menos 70 a?os en el descubrimiento de Am?rica. Salta a la vista que, para poder acumular mayores pruebas en apoyo de su tesis, Menzies debe de intentar comprobar, de preferencia con evidencia material, que los chinos estuvieron presentes en Am?rica antes que la colonizaci?n europea. Es en este sentido en el que nuestro M?xico adquiere vital importancia. No existe mayor probabilidad de encontrar pruebas tangibles de esta presencia china en nuestro continente que a trav?s de los restos que nos dejaron las civilizaciones precolombinas. Con el nuevo enfoque que obliga la tesis del brit?nico Menzies, se torna necesario reexaminar mucha de nuestra arqueolog?a a la luz de esta posibilidad, por m?s extra?a que nos parezca. Seg?n el autor, ya existen pruebas fehacientes de un contacto China-Brasil que es anterior a 1511, por lo que no es descabellado pensar que en nuestro r?cord antropol?gico pudieran existir elementos de apoyo a su tesis. Entre otros, aquellos que se pudieran derivar de los estudios de DNA tanto en humanos como en algunas especies animales y vegetales. Seg?n Menzies, es relativamente f?cil demostrar -mientras se cuente con los espec?menes adecuados-, mediante el carbono 14 y estudios comparativos de DNA, que cosas como el arroz, algunas especies av?colas (como los pollos) y piedras preciosas como el jade, tienen origen en China, y no son nativos de Am?rica. Una traducci?n comprensiva al ingl?s de los recuentos de los primeros exploradores europeos que llegaron al Nuevo Mundo, afirma Menzies, apoyan la tesis de una presencia china en Am?rica previa a la europea. Es casi seguro que la comprobaci?n o ridiculizaci?n de la hip?tesis controversial de Menzies se venga dando en nuestro territorio, pues en ning?n otro pa?s del continente se cuenta con un r?cord tan antiguo y tan completo, producto de la avanzada civilizaci?n presente aqu? y que necesariamente debi? interactuar con los emisarios del emperador chino Zhu Di, si es que acaso ?stos llegaron a nuestras tierras antes que la Pinta, la Ni?a y la Santa Mar?a. Por lo mismo, no es dif?cil adelantar que nuestros cient?ficos, nuestros excelsos antrop?logos, mismos que destacan a nivel mundial, ser?n los encargados de protagonizar esta batalla que librar? el entendimiento humano. Depender? del conocimiento y la informaci?n que ellos arrimen a la pol?mica el que futuras generaciones aprendan una versi?n diferente respecto al descubrimiento de Am?rica que la que aprendieron sus padres. Habr? que estar pendientes de esta vital aportaci?n mexicana al entendimiento humano. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: h_impresi?n.gif Type: image/gif Size: 2203 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: acento_edit.gif Type: image/gif Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeremybaraquin at hotmail.com Sun Jan 19 21:26:14 2003 From: jeremybaraquin at hotmail.com (jeremy baraquin) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 15:26:14 -0600 Subject: unsuscribe from nahuat-l Message-ID: _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From salvador at iastate.edu Mon Jan 20 05:09:40 2003 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:09:40 -0600 Subject: Newbie questions In-Reply-To: <200301161821.05103.awallace@rwsoft-online.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 06:21 PM, Alexander Wallace wrote: > Everybody's insight in the matter seems pretty homogeneous with a few > variants here and there, like. And you pretty much told me what I > wanted to hear :) Alexander, I wanted to add a few more comments in response to your original question, since I think I misread how recently you have joined the list and therefore how much of the information commonly exchanged here you may have caught. First, if you're interested in an intensive introduction to Classical Nahuatl, you may be interested in a month-long course organized by John Sullivan at the University of Zacatecas. The course is being taught right now (the month of January), but I imagine that if it is successful the UZ may continue to offer it on a recurring basis. You can interact directly with Dr. Sullivan about this, as he is a member of this list. The course is based on Lockhart's "Nahuatl as it is Written" and on Molina's dictionary. The main features of the course are daily work on translation of classical texts and a 5-day home-stay in a Huastecan Nahuatl village in San Luis Potos?. This year's tuition is $1,500 for one month, plus a modest lodging fee. You can get more details about the course at the UZ's IDIEZ page: http://www.idiez.org.mx/ You should also know that because your question is a common one, we keep a web page listing resources for learning Nahuatl (dictionaries, grammars, texts and courses.) I've just updated that page today with information about the course above and a few other fresh links. You can consult the page through this mailing list's home page: http://www.mrs.umn.edu/academic/history/Nahuatl/index.htm or directly, at: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/nahuatl.html Addenda regarding responses you received from others: Joe Campbell offered a list of excellent scholarly resources to support learning of Classical Nahuatl. I wanted to point out that my lone suggestion of "Llave del Nahuatl" was made on the basis of my assumption that you are not a linguist and because you mentioned that you are a native Spanish speaker. That was my situation when as a teenager I ran into Garibay Kintana's work. Growing up in the Puebla valley I had casually picked up some Nahuatl in ostensive fashion, but I was incompetent in actual conversational settings. When I looked for ways to systematize my budding knowledge of Nahuatl I attempted to digest a few of the materials in the formal "linguistic cannon," but was incompetent to understand the work of specialists. That was when I discovered "Llave del Nahuatl," while browsing one fine day in the Porr?a bookstore in downtown Mexico City. I found the approach readily accessible and calibrated to provide just the right entry point for an interested but non-technical learner. So, that explains my bias ;-). If I assumed incorrectly and you are in fact a linguist then I think the materials recommended by Joe will be of immediate use to you (referring directly to Andrews and the Dibble and Anderson commentaries.) AND, I EARNESTLY recommend the Campbell and Karttunen Foundation Course, which Joe's modesty almost prevented him from listing. I can say the same thing for it that I have for "Llave del Nahuatl." It is accessible and methodical and is an excellent entry point to the language. Lastly, Frances Karttunen and Juergen Stowasser have pointed you toward the Hills and Hills "Speaking Mexicano." I again have a personal bias, since this book documents a study based in the very region where I was first exposed to Nahuatl. With that obligation to disclosure out of the way, I think this book is one of the best ways to understand the present state of the language. The reason is that, in addition to a linguistic analysis and interpretation of contemporary Nahuatl uses, the book provides excellent context by starting with a historical and cultural overview of the area of the study, and that summary is about the best I've seen (to understand the present uses of any language, it is important to understand the forces that have molded it). Just to pique your curiosity a bit, the actual analysis is of the way that Mexicano is used in various communities of the region to signify status or prestige. Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From salvador at iastate.edu Mon Jan 20 06:05:08 2003 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 00:05:08 -0600 Subject: Canoa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 03:44 PM, r. joe campbell wrote: > Tepoztla'n, Morelos (back in the 60s) seemed fairly close to > "classical", but the "line" of speaker/non-speaker has moved since > then. Now the youngest Nahuatl speaker that I know of there is 70 and > most people who really speak it are considerably older than him. > Another close match is San Miguel Canoa, Puebla. This prompts me to mention in passing that the last time I was in Canoa, with a group of my students in March 2000, folks there were gravely concerned with the acculturative influence of the new middle school (secundaria) that was established on the road between Puebla City and Canoa. What the family we stayed with conveyed was that their kids were now mixing with the hoi poloi (mestizos) from the urban periphery of Puebla who were also attending the school, and that this had troubling consequences for the cultural identity of the Canoa kids, not the least of which was a growing problem with drugs, which they claimed had not been an issue prior to this. Another growing concern was the extent to which the City of Puebla was appropriating the runoff water from Matlalcueyatl and the town was encountering grave water shortages. For those not familiar with the region, it was the essence of locating a town (altepetl) in the high, arid central plateaus of central Mexico that runoff water be caught from surrounding slopes. We were told that the competition for water was aggressive, to the extent that a small pipe put in by communal labor to conduct water from the slopes of Matlalcueyatl was sabotaged. They of course had theories about who would have motives for such action. Lastly, we found everyone concerned about the price of corn. In short, they could not sell corn profitably because the official price at CONASUPO outlets was lower than their cost of production. This is a commonplace in rural Mexico these days, and the people in Canoa were very clear in identifying the North American Free Trade Agreement as the root of this particular problem. For these folks, a corn-centered culture, the implications of losing the economic viability of their main staple was a crisis of major proportion. Just one consequence was that they saw themselves as condemned to become menial laborers for the wealthy of Puebla City. All this they told us while providing 20 of us a sumptuous meal of gorditas and refusing to even hear our offers of restitution. But they WOULD say "Huel miac totlatlauhtia..." Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From salvador at iastate.edu Mon Jan 20 07:00:25 2003 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 01:00:25 -0600 Subject: Naive Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 12:09 PM, Brett Breitwieser wrote: > How useful would a study of Nahuatl be to someone who is also > interested in > learning the Hopi Language? ... > I want to learn Hopi/Aztec for both archaeological and personal > reasons... If you're interested in documenting the development of Uto-Aztecan langugages, that would be one thing. But, for someone interested in learning Hopi for practical reasons, I personally don't see learning Nahuatl as a productive route. The main reason, simplistically, is that though Hopi and Nahuatl share a common ancient lineage, they are today distinct languages (not mutually intelligible), as opposed to dialects of a single language, and they are not related linearly. Furthermore, there is no shortage of materials and opportunities for the direct learning of Nahuatl. The recent question on this list involving the usefulness of learning Classic Nahuatl in order to then acquire a contemporary dialect resulted in the general conclusion that this strategy could be useful (assuming lack of immediate facility to learn a contemporary dialect directly). The difference with your query is that contemporary Nahuatl dialects FOLLOWED Classic Nahuatl, and that circumstances and the relatively short timeline involved have not caused great differentiation among most of the descendants (today's most divergent dialects were probably also strongly differentiated at the time of European contact.) Hopi on the other hand, preceded the development of Nahuatl, and the time remove is significant. It is also important that Hopi was not a direct predecessor of Nahuatl, but is rather the end point of a lone branch in the northern group of the greater Uto-Aztecan language family, and that this branch diverged deep in prehistoric time. So, for practical purposes, understanding the structure of Nahuatl will afford you no particular advantages for learning Hopi, which has its own peculiar properties (for example, Hopi would be an ideal language for astrophysicists, because in Hopi you equate events that happen very far from your location with things happening a very long time ago. The farther the event is from you in space, then the farther it is from you in time. Perfect for astrophysical research ;-)). To briefly give you an idea of the time-space difference between Hopi and Nahuatl, consider an analogous case. You are an English speaker. English is a language belonging to the western branch of the greater Germanic family of languages. The Germanic family, in turn is related with the Italic and Indo-Aryan language families due to a common ancestry in proto-Indoeuropean. Consider the wide variance in these languages and the time depths involved with their evolution. The west Germanic languages probably diverged in the first few centuries of the common era. When was the original common Indoeuropean spoken? A safe estimate is probably about 3,000 to 4,000 years ago. So, within that span of time languages as diverse as Bengali, Kurdish, Catalan, German, Slovene and English have formed. Now for comparison, Nahuatl is grouped with the southern branch of Uto-Aztecan, with the Sonoran language group. Hopi belongs to the northern branch. The best estimates available at present indicate that Nahuatl diverged from the main Sonoran branch about 4,500 years ago, probably some place in present-day western Sonora, approximately at the time when the progenitor of all major European and Indo-Iranian languages was spoken in a small corner of south-central Eurasia. The southern branch of Uto-Aztecan had diverged from the northern branch BEFORE this point. The recent discussion on Classical Nahuatl as a precursor for the study of modern Nahuatl prompted the following comment: On Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 03:44 PM, r. joe campbell wrote: > On the other hand, if you started with a "further-out" modern dialect, > going to another dialect would present more difficulties. I think of > it with the "hub and spoke" metaphor: if you start at the hub, each > spoke is immediately related to what you know, but if you start "way > out there" on any arbitrary spoke, who knows how much that spoke is > going to contribute your learning the next one? Using Joe's example, you're asking not whether an end point on a spoke will help you get to the hub, but whether an end point on a spoke on a totally different wheel (albeit on the same cart ;-), will help you get to the hub on the wheel of your interest. > Is the book listed below still available from the same source > (University of Minnesota)? Quemah. (Yes ;-)). > Campbell, Joe R. and Frances Karttunen, Foundation Course in Nahuatl > Grammar. Vol. I: Text and Exercises; vol. II: Vocabulary and Key > (Missoula: > University of Montana, 1997) 336p. & 272p. $40.00 for both volumes, > shipping > included > > Dr. J. F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > University of Minnesota, Morris > Morris, MN 56267 Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From salvador at iastate.edu Mon Jan 20 07:32:35 2003 From: salvador at iastate.edu (Ricardo J. Salvador) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 01:32:35 -0600 Subject: Does chancles = slippers? In-Reply-To: <33685.12.254.209.145.1042844182.squirrel@www.nahuatl.info> Message-ID: On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 04:56 PM, wrote: > Although my original question was raised without excluding the > possibility > of 'bad grammar' as with the example of: you all = ya'll This is an example of a common and perfectly functional contraction (you + all = y'all) used in southern dialects of American English, and not an example of "bad grammar" per se. > One question: In your experience, do (some) linguistic researchers > approach their questions while excluding the possibility that "bad > grammar" may be one of the results? A common mantra among linguists is that their science is descriptive, not prescriptive. The distinctions between proper and improper grammar within a language are "real," of course, but usually related to the imposition of standards that are meaningful in a cultural context. As students of the mechanics of language and its evolution, linguists will of course take note of such quibbles and distinctions, but their focus is on the set of processes that adapt a people's utterances to meet their needs. > In my limited experience with languages, few speakers of any > first-spoken > language are "excellent" at observing grammar in any randomly expressed > discourse. It is even more interesting than that. We acquire an understanding very early in our development about the rules for formulating valid sentences in our native languages, and even though we continue to develop this skill into adulthood, and have very clear ideas about what constitutes proper speech within our native language, few of us are actually able to articulate explicitly what those rules are. We know them, but it takes special study to become consciously aware of them! > As such, the possibility should exist that 'poor grammar' > could be learned as readily as 'good grammar' in the absence of any > sort > of 'control' such as a formal education. Yes, no, maybe, or unlikely > (is > this true)? Sure, with the caveat that to a pure linguist the distinction between "poor" and "standard" grammar is undefined, or rather is a social construction. Your "education" is a way of imposing standards on you, linguistically, culturally, philosophically, morally, politically, etc. People and their cultures change, therefore their communication needs change and their languages evolve to suit. The mechanisms whereby that occurs are the main focus of interest of linguistics as a whole (the gospel according to moi, with apologies to ACTUAL linguists ;-)). Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From brettb at rajah.com Mon Jan 20 07:03:15 2003 From: brettb at rajah.com (Brett Breitwieser) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:03:15 -0800 Subject: Naive Questions In-Reply-To: <1067.64.175.45.24.1042828249.squirrel@webmail.coatli.com> Message-ID: Thanks to everyone for the kind responses... I've ordered "Speaking Mexicano" to get a basic cultural understanding and though I can see that it will be of little help in learning Hopi, I will order the Campbell Foundation set as well... My Spanish is problematic to say the least, as I speak a variant based on French learned in High School, practiced for three years in West Africa (Senegal) modified by exposure to the Arabs for 15 years, and a year of Spanish from a teacher from Barcelona who had studied in France (without realizing it we kept mutually falling into French variants in the class, much to the consternation of my fellow classmates!) Combined with the Wolof, Serer and Peulani from West Africa and some Mandarin Chinese (1 year in College, several years exposure to Mandarin and Cantonese here in California) and Japanese (1 year in College and several years exposure as a Zen Buddhist)... and I speak a very strange Pirate's Creole! When I listen to Spanish I tend to hear the common Latin roots with Arabic mixed in... might as well add Mexicano/Nahuatl to make life interesting... and if I can find the sources I am quite interested to find some way of picking up smatterings of Hopi, Navajo, and Apache... I'm not sure where this is all leading... but learning even small amounts of languages of others opens up new worlds and world-views as I have found in the past... *huehuetlahtolli* ;*) Anyway, thanks for the responses... I'm still quite interested in the Aztec influences that reached up into Arizuma... Wish me luck, life is an adventure... even for undisciplined types like myself who are literally "all over the map"... thanks again for humoring me! *tlazocamati* Brett Breitwieser (brettb at rajah.com) Zen Site: http://zenbud.org Bald Eagle Speaks: http://rajah.com Tech Support: http://surfnetusa.com/techsupport > > > From karttu at nantucket.net Mon Jan 20 12:54:05 2003 From: karttu at nantucket.net (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 07:54:05 -0500 Subject: Non-Indo-European languages Message-ID: Ricardo has written impeccably about the linguistic history of the Uto-Aztecan languages. He is absolutely on target about the profound and ancient divergence between the northern and southern branches of this family. So what I have to add here is an additional thought and not in any way contradictory to what Ricardo has said. Benjamin Lee Whorf, who studied both northern and southern Uto-Aztecan languages and other non-Indo-European languages as well, warned against the strictures of the Indo-European mindset. Speakers of what might be called "standard average European" (SAE) languages bring to the task of learning a non-Indo-European language preconceptions about how languages work, and these preconceptions may hinder their understanding of how other languages work. Learning ONE non-Indo-European language serves to dispel SAE assumptions and open one to the greater possibilities across human languages. So someone who has learned some Nahuatl is probably better prepared to approach Hopi than someone who speaks just Spanish and/or English. But someone like me who came to Nahuatl with a prior knowledge of Finnish (a language utterly different from SAE languages) has about the same advantage. Just having broken out of SAE is a help, but not all languages are equally useful for learning other languages. For instance, knowing Finnish has been helpful for Nahuatl, and it also seems to be helpful for such completely unrelated languages as Quechua, Turkish, and Korean. But it doesn't bring much useful to learning languages that make distinctive use of tone. I've had a vastly harder time with Yucatec Maya than with Nahuatl, but probably someone who knows an Asian or African tone language would be better prepared to learn Mayan languages and Chinantec, for instance. So yes, learning some Nahuatl would probably be more useful to acquiring Hopi than studying Chinese, for instance. That said, aside from the polyglot sort of linguist, most people don't have the time and enthusiasm to learn one language in order to facilitate learning another one. In a sense, that's what makes the Andrews book about Nahuatl so difficult. Andrews sets out to dispel the SAE mindset by teaching a meta-grammatical structure for Nahuatl which isn't universal technical linguistic terminology, but something very particular to Andrews's understanding of Nahuatl. His belief is that learning this abstract structure will facilitate accurate learning of classical Nahuatl, but for most people it's equivalent to learning one really hard language in order to learn another very hard language. Who has the time and determination? It's discouraging. For me Andrews is an invaluable reference work but not a language-learning aid, even though that is what Andrews intends it to be. One thing about the Andrews book though. It takes us beyond Garibay's and Thelma Sullivan's introductions to Nahuatl by insisting on an understanding of Nahuatl phonology and morphology on its own terms and not through the obscuring curtain of the imperfect orthography that was devised in the 16th century. This isn't just a matter of pronunciation. By confusing the language with the orthography Garibay and Sullivan (and for that matter Simeon in his etymologies too) wander into error and miss generalities that make the language easier to grasp. For a couple of reasons the 16th- and 17th-century dictionaries and grammars of Mesoamerican languages are generally superior to ones written later. One is that the friars who compiled them did so from total immersion in the community of speakers of the languages about which they wrote. Another, specific to the Jesuit grammarians, is that they came from an academic tradition that involved study of Hebrew, Arabic, Chinese, and other non-SAE languages as well as Latin. Acquiring Nahuatl involves setting aside SAE ideas about how singular and plural work; paying attention to such distinctions as animate/inanimate, human/nonhuman, specific/nonspecific, transitive/intransitive; and putting up with ambiguity about who did what to whom. It's an exercise in futility to produce things in English or Spanish and seek to translate them directly into Nahuatl. The same would be true for Hopi with its very different approach to space and time. My head spins when I contemplate the prospect of translating anything from non-native Nahuatl to non-native Hopi! From lynn.foster at umb.edu Mon Jan 20 13:50:33 2003 From: lynn.foster at umb.edu (Lynn Foster) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 08:50:33 -0500 Subject: Canoa Message-ID: On Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 03:44 PM, r. joe campbell wrote: > Tepoztla'n, Morelos (back in the 60s) seemed fairly close to > "classical", but the "line" of speaker/non-speaker has moved since > then. Now the youngest Nahuatl speaker that I know of there is 70 and > most people who really speak it are considerably older than him. > Another close match is San Miguel Canoa, Puebla. This prompts me to mention in passing that the last time I was in Canoa, with a group of my students in March 2000, folks there were gravely concerned with the acculturative influence of the new middle school (secundaria) that was established on the road between Puebla City and Canoa. What the family we stayed with conveyed was that their kids were now mixing with the hoi poloi (mestizos) from the urban periphery of Puebla who were also attending the school, and that this had troubling consequences for the cultural identity of the Canoa kids, not the least of which was a growing problem with drugs, which they claimed had not been an issue prior to this. Another growing concern was the extent to which the City of Puebla was appropriating the runoff water from Matlalcueyatl and the town was encountering grave water shortages. For those not familiar with the region, it was the essence of locating a town (altepetl) in the high, arid central plateaus of central Mexico that runoff water be caught from surrounding slopes. We were told that the competition for water was aggressive, to the extent that a small pipe put in by communal labor to conduct water from the slopes of Matlalcueyatl was sabotaged. They of course had theories about who would have motives for such action. ed to become menial laborers for the wealthy of Puebla City. All this they told us while providing 20 of us a sumptuous meal of gorditas and refusing to even hear our offers of restitution. But they WOULD say "Huel miac totlatlauhtia..." Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Mon Jan 20 16:51:26 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:51:26 -0600 Subject: Newbie questions In-Reply-To: <612490AE-2C35-11D7-9B62-00039303140C@iastate.edu> Message-ID: Gracias mil Ricardo! The intensive course you mention sounds very interesting. I sure hope i can take it one day. Unfortunately I can't at this point, take off a month for such an excellent experience. You were not wrong when you thought of me as a non technical person in the study of the languages. I'm a mere computer programmer/amateur classical guitarrist mortal :) But i love languages and i find nahuatl very interesting and I want to se how far i can go with it. I tried to order the book online but was unable, so I'll have a friend of mine in mexico toget it for me. Thanks very much also for all the other comments. This is all good for me! Tlazocamatzin. Quoting "Ricardo J. Salvador" : > On Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 06:21 PM, Alexander Wallace wrote: > > > Everybody's insight in the matter seems pretty homogeneous with a few > > > variants here and there, like. And you pretty much told me what I > > wanted to hear :) > > Alexander, > > I wanted to add a few more comments in response to your original > question, since I think I misread how recently you have joined the list > > and therefore how much of the information commonly exchanged here you > may have caught. > > First, if you're interested in an intensive introduction to Classical > Nahuatl, you may be interested in a month-long course organized by John > > Sullivan at the University of Zacatecas. The course is being taught > right now (the month of January), but I imagine that if it is > successful the UZ may continue to offer it on a recurring basis. You > can interact directly with Dr. Sullivan about this, as he is a member > of this list. The course is based on Lockhart's "Nahuatl as it is > Written" and on Molina's dictionary. The main features of the course > are daily work on translation of classical texts and a 5-day home-stay > in a Huastecan Nahuatl village in San Luis Potos?. This year's tuition > is $1,500 for one month, plus a modest lodging fee. You can get more > details about the course at the UZ's IDIEZ page: > > http://www.idiez.org.mx/ > > You should also know that because your question is a common one, we > keep a web page listing resources for learning Nahuatl (dictionaries, > grammars, texts and courses.) I've just updated that page today with > information about the course above and a few other fresh links. You can > > consult the page through this mailing list's home page: > > http://www.mrs.umn.edu/academic/history/Nahuatl/index.htm > > or directly, at: > > http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/nahuatl.html > > Addenda regarding responses you received from others: > > Joe Campbell offered a list of excellent scholarly resources to support > > learning of Classical Nahuatl. I wanted to point out that my lone > suggestion of "Llave del Nahuatl" was made on the basis of my > assumption that you are not a linguist and because you mentioned that > you are a native Spanish speaker. That was my situation when as a > teenager I ran into Garibay Kintana's work. Growing up in the Puebla > valley I had casually picked up some Nahuatl in ostensive fashion, but > I was incompetent in actual conversational settings. When I looked for > ways to systematize my budding knowledge of Nahuatl I attempted to > digest a few of the materials in the formal "linguistic cannon," but > was incompetent to understand the work of specialists. That was when I > discovered "Llave del Nahuatl," while browsing one fine day in the > Porr?a bookstore in downtown Mexico City. I found the approach readily > accessible and calibrated to provide just the right entry point for an > interested but non-technical learner. So, that explains my bias ;-). If > > I assumed incorrectly and you are in fact a linguist then I think the > materials recommended by Joe will be of immediate use to you (referring > > directly to Andrews and the Dibble and Anderson commentaries.) > > AND, I EARNESTLY recommend the Campbell and Karttunen Foundation > Course, which Joe's modesty almost prevented him from listing. I can > say the same thing for it that I have for "Llave del Nahuatl." It is > accessible and methodical and is an excellent entry point to the > language. > > Lastly, Frances Karttunen and Juergen Stowasser have pointed you toward > > the Hills and Hills "Speaking Mexicano." I again have a personal bias, > since this book documents a study based in the very region where I was > first exposed to Nahuatl. With that obligation to disclosure out of the > > way, I think this book is one of the best ways to understand the > present state of the language. The reason is that, in addition to a > linguistic analysis and interpretation of contemporary Nahuatl uses, > the book provides excellent context by starting with a historical and > cultural overview of the area of the study, and that summary is about > the best I've seen (to understand the present uses of any language, it > is important to understand the forces that have molded it). Just to > pique your curiosity a bit, the actual analysis is of the way that > Mexicano is used in various communities of the region to signify status > > or prestige. > > Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 > 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 > Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu > Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad > > > > From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Mon Jan 20 22:53:12 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:53:12 -0600 Subject: Newbie questions In-Reply-To: <612490AE-2C35-11D7-9B62-00039303140C@iastate.edu> Message-ID: Thankyou very much Ricardo. Earlier this morning I replied to this message, but I don't see my reply on the list, so i will send this again. If you get a duplicate, please forgive me. You are right, I'm a mere mortal (not a linguist :) ), so your suggestions are perfect for me. The course in Zacatecas sounds like a great oportunity, unfortunately at this point I can't take a full month off from work. Maybe in the future. A really appreciate all this information. I love languages and nahuatls is something i really want to see how far I can go with. Gracias mil. On Sunday 19 January 2003 23:09, Ricardo J. Salvador wrote: > On Thursday, January 16, 2003, at 06:21 PM, Alexander Wallace wrote: > > Everybody's insight in the matter seems pretty homogeneous with a few > > variants here and there, like. And you pretty much told me what I > > wanted to hear :) > > Alexander, > > I wanted to add a few more comments in response to your original > question, since I think I misread how recently you have joined the list > and therefore how much of the information commonly exchanged here you > may have caught. > > First, if you're interested in an intensive introduction to Classical > Nahuatl, you may be interested in a month-long course organized by John > Sullivan at the University of Zacatecas. The course is being taught > right now (the month of January), but I imagine that if it is > successful the UZ may continue to offer it on a recurring basis. You > can interact directly with Dr. Sullivan about this, as he is a member > of this list. The course is based on Lockhart's "Nahuatl as it is > Written" and on Molina's dictionary. The main features of the course > are daily work on translation of classical texts and a 5-day home-stay > in a Huastecan Nahuatl village in San Luis Potos?. This year's tuition > is $1,500 for one month, plus a modest lodging fee. You can get more > details about the course at the UZ's IDIEZ page: > > http://www.idiez.org.mx/ > > You should also know that because your question is a common one, we > keep a web page listing resources for learning Nahuatl (dictionaries, > grammars, texts and courses.) I've just updated that page today with > information about the course above and a few other fresh links. You can > consult the page through this mailing list's home page: > > http://www.mrs.umn.edu/academic/history/Nahuatl/index.htm > > or directly, at: > > http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/nahuatl.html > > Addenda regarding responses you received from others: > > Joe Campbell offered a list of excellent scholarly resources to support > learning of Classical Nahuatl. I wanted to point out that my lone > suggestion of "Llave del Nahuatl" was made on the basis of my > assumption that you are not a linguist and because you mentioned that > you are a native Spanish speaker. That was my situation when as a > teenager I ran into Garibay Kintana's work. Growing up in the Puebla > valley I had casually picked up some Nahuatl in ostensive fashion, but > I was incompetent in actual conversational settings. When I looked for > ways to systematize my budding knowledge of Nahuatl I attempted to > digest a few of the materials in the formal "linguistic cannon," but > was incompetent to understand the work of specialists. That was when I > discovered "Llave del Nahuatl," while browsing one fine day in the > Porr?a bookstore in downtown Mexico City. I found the approach readily > accessible and calibrated to provide just the right entry point for an > interested but non-technical learner. So, that explains my bias ;-). If > I assumed incorrectly and you are in fact a linguist then I think the > materials recommended by Joe will be of immediate use to you (referring > directly to Andrews and the Dibble and Anderson commentaries.) > > AND, I EARNESTLY recommend the Campbell and Karttunen Foundation > Course, which Joe's modesty almost prevented him from listing. I can > say the same thing for it that I have for "Llave del Nahuatl." It is > accessible and methodical and is an excellent entry point to the > language. > > Lastly, Frances Karttunen and Juergen Stowasser have pointed you toward > the Hills and Hills "Speaking Mexicano." I again have a personal bias, > since this book documents a study based in the very region where I was > first exposed to Nahuatl. With that obligation to disclosure out of the > way, I think this book is one of the best ways to understand the > present state of the language. The reason is that, in addition to a > linguistic analysis and interpretation of contemporary Nahuatl uses, > the book provides excellent context by starting with a historical and > cultural overview of the area of the study, and that summary is about > the best I've seen (to understand the present uses of any language, it > is important to understand the forces that have molded it). Just to > pique your curiosity a bit, the actual analysis is of the way that > Mexicano is used in various communities of the region to signify status > or prestige. > > Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 > 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 > Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu > Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Jan 21 06:18:25 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:18:25 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl dialects Message-ID: In the light of the recent interest shown in variation in Nahuatl dialects, I wanted to contribute a small sample which shows how words which are basically similar can differ because of certain pronunciation "habits" (which linguists call "rules" -- descriptions of regularities). The villages are: Ameyaltepec, Guerrero San Miguel Canoa, Puebla Hueyapan, Morelos The spelling is "standard", except where the pronunciation necessitates a change. 'cc' is pronounced like a single 'c', namely [k]. I'll intersperse some comments with the numbered examples. Ameyaltepec Canoa Hueyapan 1. I leave it niccahua niccahua niccava I left it oniccauh oniccah oniccan Verbs like '-ca:hua' lose their final vowel in the preterit. Note that Ameyaltepec keeps the /w/ as [w] (spelled 'hu' before vowels and spelled 'uh' elsewhere -- the spelling inversion does NOT indicate a difference in pronunciation; it is related to readability). Canoa converts syllable-final /w/ (including, of course, word-final ones) to [h]. Hueyapan converts intervocalic /w/ to [v] (pronounced as in English, not to be confused the Spanish letter 'v'); in word-final position it is pronounced as [n]. 2. we leave it ticcahuah ticcahuah ticcavah we left it oticcauhqueh oticcahqueh oticcahqueh The only difference in #2 is that in Hueyapan, '-ca:hua' shows up in a *third* phonetic form: '-cah-'. Therefore children learning the language in Hueyapan (and, naturally, as users of it throughout their lives) need to recognize three forms of the stem: word-internal, before a vowel: cava word-internal, before a consonant: cah word-final: can 3. I fall nihuetzi nihuetzi nivetzi he falls huetzi huetzi huetzi These examples establish the fact that in Hueyapan, speakers actually have a pronunciation "rule" that converts /w/ into [v]; if it were not for examples like this, we might simply believe that Hueyapan had undergone a basic change and no longer had a /w/ at all. 4. I fell onihuetz onihuetz onivetz he fell ohuetz ohuetz oetz "oetz" shows that in Hueyapan speakers delete a /w/ that they recognize as part of the word (cf. huetzi, nivetzi) when it is preceded by 'o'. 5. I shell it nigoa I shelled it onigon I don't recall the Ameyaltepec and Canoa forms, but I thought that the Hueyapan examples would tickle your imagination. And the explanation is too big for this space.... 6. you buy it ticcoa ticcoa you bought it oticcouh oticcoh oticcon 7. I return it niccuepa niccuepa niccopa I return you nimitzcuepa nimitzcuepa nimitzcopa I return (myself) nimocuepa nimocuepa nogopa These examples are the only ones in the whole set that indicate that any of the three dialect has changed a vocabulary item: Hueyapan has 'copa' rather than 'cuepa'. But, again, Hueyapan has an extra pronunciation "rule": /k/ becomes [g] intervocalically. Note, however, that the sound of /k/ is maintained when it is preceded by a consonant. Linguists will jump with joy when they notice that 'nogopa' (which is really, in the speaker's mind {nocopa} is pronounced as [nogopa] and 'niccopa' "waits" until all the intervocalic /k/s have been converted to [g] and then reduces its 'cc' to a single [k] sound between vowels. If 'niccopa' got in a hurry and didn't wait, and converted its 'cc' into a single 'c', then it would momentarily become 'nicopa', which would then be changed into *[nigopa] by the /k/ to [g] "rule". Incidentally, although Hueyapan has no "double consonants" (pronounced *long*) except for /ll/ (as in 'calli'), Tepoztlan does have them, but that's another story..... Maybe someone else has some other dialect comparisons? Best regards, Joe From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Tue Jan 21 10:41:14 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 04:41:14 -0600 Subject: Nahuatl dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Forgive my ignorance, what is the sound of this 'v' you talk about? I'm not sure what difference you make reference to. Thanks! > Hueyapan converts intervocalic /w/ to [v] (pronounced as in English, not > to be confused the Spanish letter 'v'); From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Jan 21 18:53:27 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:53:27 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl dialects In-Reply-To: <20030121044114.622e50e9.awallace@rwsoft-online.com> Message-ID: The English 'v' (pronounced as [v]): a fricative sound pronounced by forcing the air stream through the aperture formed by placing the upper teeth on or just inside the lower lip. In most dialects of Spanish, when the orthographic 'b' and 'v' (which are pronounced alike in any case, in spite of the efforts of teachers) are neither preceded by [m] or a pause, they are pronounced by appproximating the upper lip to the lower one while the air stream passes through. The narrowing does not deserve the name of "fricative", but that's the label normally applied to it. The Hueyapan pronunciation of /w/ (orthography 'hu') between vowels is like the *English [v]*. On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Alexander Wallace wrote: > Forgive my ignorance, what is the sound of this 'v' you talk about? I'm > not sure what difference you make reference to. > > Thanks! > > > Hueyapan converts intervocalic /w/ to [v] (pronounced as in English, not > > to be confused the Spanish letter 'v'); > > > From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Jan 21 19:15:31 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:15:31 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I didn't mention stress, but stress in these dialects is the same as in most dialects of modern Nahuatl (and in "classical" Nahuatl, except for the vocative, which had final stress): stress is penultimate, i.e., it falls on the second syllable from the end of the word. The stressed syllable is louder and higher in pitch than other syllables in the word. Best regards, Joe On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Matthew Montchalin wrote: > | In the light of the recent interest shown in variation in Nahuatl > |dialects, I wanted to contribute a small sample which shows how words > |which are basically similar can differ because of certain pronunciation > |"habits" (which linguists call "rules" -- descriptions of regularities). > > Fascinating post, but I confess my ignorance this point regarding the > issue of syllabic stress. Do any of the dialects have syllabic stress, > and where does the 'accent' fall in them? Does the past tense marker > have any effect on the location of the syllabic stress? > > Or are the polysyllabic constructions to be uttered in a staccato > manner, each syllable uniformly stressed, like every other? > > > From campbel at indiana.edu Tue Jan 21 19:22:49 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:22:49 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Dialects 2: Speaking of Stress Message-ID: I sent this message to the list some time ago, but membership changes.... Notes on Accent Variability in Nahuatl dialects (I mark accent immediately after the vowel that it occurs on [e.g., a' = accented 'a']) Both San Miguel Canoa (Puebla) and Xaltipan (Tlaxcala) have stress displacement one syllable to the left in the absolutive form of nouns; obviously, this does not occur on words of less than three syllables. >8-) Nouns which have absolutive forms ending in "-li" in "Classical" and many other modern dialects not only shift stress one syllable to the left, but they also drop the final "i": Canoa Tlaxcala "Classical" tla'xcal tla'xcal tortilla tlaxca'lli ca'xtol ca'xtol fifteen caxto'lli ma'cuil ma'cuil five macui'lli Note, however, that while both Canoa and Tlaxcala both also shift stress one syllable to the left in nouns which have absolutive forms ending in "-tli", Canoa keeps the final vowel intact while Tlaxcala deletes it (parallel to the treatment of nouns in "-li" in both dialects). a'moxtli a'moxtl book amo'xtli i'chpochtli i'chpochtl girl ichpochtli tzo'htzomahtli tzo'htzomahtl clothing tzohtzoma'htli ma'htlactli ma'htlactl ten mahtla'ctli Thus, Tlaxcala maintains regular penultimate stress in these nouns, but Canoa has the unusual (for Nahuatl) pattern of antepenult stress in nouns ending in "-tli". However, Tlaxcala "pays" for its regularity in the treatment of stress: notice that these particular nouns now end in consonant clusters -- something that Nahuatl is said not to "like". (Other dialects *do* develop some "unliked" consonant cluster, such as "xnicma'ti", 'I don't know it' [San Agustin Oapan, Guerrero], but that's another story.) When I find my notes on stress shift in Oapan, I'll get back to you. Or maybe someone else can contribute these observations..... Michoacan seems to have "basically" penultimate stress, but surface forms frequently show final stress due to deletions. quichi'hua he does it quichi'c he did it Comment: The consonant following the stressed vowel is optionally deleted, resulting also in "quichi'ac", and further, the unstressed vowel following stressed vowel is deleted. Past tense does not involve truncation of the stem; preterit singular forms are indicated by the "-c" suffix. Further examples: moca'hua he remains moca'c he remained Comment: Derived from "moca'[hua]c" nicmela'hua I straighten it nicmela'c I straightened it Variable forms: nechi'lic she said it to me nechi'c she said it to me Comment: Derived from "nechi'[li]c" cata'ya he was cata' he was Comment: Also derived by deletion of post-stress consonant and vowel. cua'huil tree cua'l tree Comment: Also derived by deletion of post-stress consonant and vowel. noxo'lol my child noxo'l my child Comment: "noxo'[lo]l" From campbel at indiana.edu Wed Jan 22 02:43:49 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:43:49 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Dialects 2: Speaking of Stress Message-ID: A friend tapped me on the shoulder (by e-mail) and pointed out that the accents were misplaced on the following line. El confundido fui yo! The comment at the bottom has the correct forms. {8-( (Cencah Xochichil) > tzo'htzomahtli tzo'htzomahtl clothing tzohtzoma'htli I'm confused here. Shouldn't these be tzohtzo'mahtli and tzohtzo'mahtl? From BarnesW at DOAKS.org Wed Jan 22 16:52:54 2003 From: BarnesW at DOAKS.org (Barnes, William) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:52:54 -0500 Subject: nizacatimaltzin Message-ID: Listeros, I've been retranslating a portion of the Cantares (f. 15r,17-18) and was interested in some feedback (I've Garibay's, Leon Portilla, and Bierhorst's trans. so please don't reply with those). The phrase is << cuicatl a[n]yolque xochitl ancueponque antepilhua[n] nizacatimaltzin / intochihuitzin ompaye huitze[h] xochimecatl >> I'm not satisfied with resorting to "personal name" for nizacatimaltzin, and have tentatively parsed it as {ni/zaca/-ti-/mal/tzin = I / grass /-conn.-/ captive / [h.]= I the captive warrior}- using Bierhorst's (1985:419) trans. of oceozacatl as a guide. But I am not satisfied. Any input would be welcome. William Barnes From zorrah at att.net Thu Jan 23 03:42:22 2003 From: zorrah at att.net (zorrah at att.net) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 03:42:22 +0000 Subject: Mexica Creation Story Message-ID: Here is a version of the Mexica creation story as translated by Edward Dorn and Gordon Brotherston (from the Sun Unwound, as cited in this website by Beto, a Chicano student at UC Berkeley): http://ollin.net/poesia/suns.html Question: Is there any evidence in Mexico today of "twisted-up" tezontli? And if so, in which direction is the tezontli twisted, clockwise or counter- clockwise? I have only traveled as far south as Saltillo, and I have never seen any twisted-up volcanic red rock. Does it really exist anywhere? Many contemporary Mexica believe that the end of the fifth sun has already passed with the arrival of the Spaniards, and that the rise of the sixth sun now awaits us. Although, I do not believe that the fifth sun has ended (yet) for a number of reasons. I believe the fifth sun will end with greater calamity that besets the whole world and not only us (the Mexica). Citlalin Xochime "Leave Us in Peace" -Riska Opra Sari (Riska: Memories of a Dayak Girlhood) From juanjose1 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 23 06:39:58 2003 From: juanjose1 at hotmail.com (Juan Jose) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:39:58 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?No_era_la_Gran_Tenochtitl=E1n_como_la_pintan_?= Message-ID: El Universal Online - Versi?n para imprimir No era la Gran Tenochtitl?n como la pintan Gabriela Jim?nez Bernal El Universal Ciudad de M?xico Mi?rcoles 22 de enero de 2003 Un muro hallado entre las calles Donceles y Argentina permite descubrir que los mexicas no dejaban grandes espacios abiertos como se cre?a 00:00 El centro ceremonial de la Gran Tenochtitl?n no era del todo como lo hab?amos imaginado. As? lo demuestra uno de los hallazgos arqueol?gicos realizados este lunes en el Centro Hist?rico. Aquella imagen del recinto ceremonial de los mexicas, de pir?mides separadas unas de otras por grandes espacios, no es tan exacta. Hecho comprobado a partir del muro descubierto en las calles de Donceles y Argentina tras los trabajos de rehabilitaci?n del Centro (20/01/03, secci?n DF). Quienes han visitado el Museo del Templo Mayor o transitado por la estaci?n del metro Z?calo recordar?n las maquetas que representan los templos de Tenochtitl?n: colocados a grandes distancias unos de otros. El arque?logo ?lvaro Barrera explica que se descubrieron dos pir?mides que est?n distanciadas por tan s?lo dos metros. "No se trata de hallazgos que cambien nuestra historia pero nos permiten conocer m?s sobre el centro ceremonial", explica quien es supervisor del Programa de Arqueolog?a Urbana (PAU) fundado en 1991 a instancias del Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia (INAH). Del hallazgo ocurrido el lunes se trata de un muro que marca la terminaci?n de la "Casa de los caballeros ?guilas", ubicada dentro del Templo Mayor. Hasta ese d?a se desconoc?a si dicha edificaci?n continuaba hacia otra direcci?n. La pared fue demolida para permitir los trabajos de instalaci?n el?ctrica. El arque?logo aclara que no se trataba de una pieza de valor art?stico, como lo es una piedra con ornamentaci?n u objetos pehisp?nicos, su importancia fue que despej? dudas de la prolongaci?n del templo dedicado a los caballeros ?guilas. A partir de esta excavaci?n se observ? que la citada casa est? muy cerca a las escalinatas de una pir?mide que est? debajo del Palacio del Marqu?s del Apartado, descubierta en 1901 y que posiblemente sea el llamado "Templo de los diversos dioses", dato a?n no confirmado. Con este descubrimiento se conoci?, despu?s de 100 a?os, cu?l era su l?mite del lado oriente. Los asombros no paran ah?; los diez arque?logos de base del PAU trabajan ahora en Palacio Nacional y en la calle de Palma. En la edificaci?n, donde el presidente en turno da el grito de Independencia, han encontrado vestigios de cuatro templos, desde escalinatas hasta muros. Tambi?n tres ofrendas y pisos de ?poca. Est?n en proceso de investigaci?n sobre su origen. En la calle de Palma, esquina Carranza, los trabajadores pusieron al descubierto drenajes de la ?poca de la Colonia y de la Independecia. Hace 12 a?os tomaron mayor fuerza este tipo de hallazgos. Diez arque?logos son vigilantes de la periferia de este centro ceremonial, limitada en el norte por la calle Luis Gonz?lez; en el sur por Moneda; al este por Correo Mayor y al poniente por Brasil. Barrera los califica como grandes logros, pues de los templos ceremoniales que mencion? Fray Bernardino de Sahag?n en su memorias, el PAU tiene detectados 40 basamentos. ? 2002 Copyright El Universal-El Universal Online http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/pls/impreso/noticia.html?id_nota=115797&tabla=notas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From juanjose1 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 23 06:39:55 2003 From: juanjose1 at hotmail.com (Juan Jose) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:39:55 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Descubren_vestigios_arqueol=F3gicos_en_distribuidor_San_An?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?tonio_?= Message-ID: El Universal Online - Versi?n para imprimir Descubren vestigios arqueol?gicos en distribuidor San Antonio Rafael Gonz?lez El Universal Ciudad de M?xico Mi?rcoles 22 de enero de 2003 Los primeros reportes informan que al parecer se trata de restos humanos, un molcajete, ollas, cazuelas y otros artefactos de la cultura tepaneca, que durante el siglo XV habit? en la zona 10:10 Restos de una osamenta humana, as? como vasijas de barro y otros artefactos de la cultura tepaneca fueron encontrados en las obras del distribuidor vial San Antonio en el Distrito Federal. El hallazgo se localiz? en las calle del Antiguo Ferrocarril de Cuernavaca y Girald?n, en la colonia Nonoalco Mixcoac, donde los trabajadores excavaron hasta 8 metros de profundidad y encontraron los vestigios de la ?poca prehisp?nica. Durante un recorrido por la zona, los trabajadores informaron que los restos fueron trasladados al Museo Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia, donde ser?n estudiados. La arque?loga Mar?a Flores Hern?ndez, encargada de los vestigios en las obras del distribuidor vial San Antonio, inform? que se trata de una osamenta de un hombre quien presuntamente fue sepultado poco antes de la llegada de los espa?oles a M?xico en el a?o de 1521. Inform? que brigadas de arqueolog?a del Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia (INAH), recorren cotidianamente las obras del distribuidor vial para ver si se encuentran otros restos prehisp?nicos, ya que cerca de donde se realizan los trabajos se encuentra la Casa de la Pir?mide de Nonoalco. Al respecto manifest? que al parecer se trata de restos humanos, un molcajete, ollas, cazuelas y otros artefactos de la cultura tepaneca, que durante el siglo XV habit? en la zona de Tacubaya y Mixcoac. Manifest? que este no es el primer hallazgo prehisp?nico, ya que en otros lugares donde se han hecho excavaciones profundas se han encontrado algunos vestigios de las culturas prehisp?nicas, pero esta es la primera ocasi?n en que se encuentra una osamenta humana. ? 2002 Copyright El Universal-El Universal Online http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/pls/impreso/noticia.html?id_nota=115794&tabla=notas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Thu Jan 23 15:29:27 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:29:27 -0600 Subject: Mexica Creation Story In-Reply-To: <20030123034221.ROFX9286.mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc17> Message-ID: Ah! Saltillo... Home sweet home! :) On Wednesday 22 January 2003 21:42, zorrah at att.net wrote: > Here is a version of the Mexica creation story as translated by Edward Dorn > and Gordon Brotherston (from the Sun Unwound, as cited in this website by > Beto, a Chicano student at UC Berkeley): > > http://ollin.net/poesia/suns.html > > Question: Is there any evidence in Mexico today of "twisted-up" tezontli? > And if so, in which direction is the tezontli twisted, clockwise or > counter- clockwise? I have only traveled as far south as Saltillo, and I > have never seen any twisted-up volcanic red rock. Does it really exist > anywhere? > > Many contemporary Mexica believe that the end of the fifth sun has already > passed with the arrival of the Spaniards, and that the rise of the sixth > sun now awaits us. Although, I do not believe that the fifth sun has ended > (yet) for a number of reasons. I believe the fifth sun will end with > greater calamity that besets the whole world and not only us (the Mexica). > > Citlalin Xochime > > "Leave Us in Peace" -Riska Opra Sari (Riska: Memories of a Dayak Girlhood) From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Fri Jan 24 17:00:17 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:00:17 -0600 Subject: cualli tonalli. In-Reply-To: <45549C8A-2FA5-11D7-9E07-00039303140C@iastate.edu> Message-ID: Muy amable Ricardo... Aprecio mucho la respuesta. Me tomo la libertad de ponerle cc hacia la lista nahuatera para permitir que otros se iluminen con tus respuestas. Encuentro muy interezante todo esto. Entiendo mas o menos lo del uso del tzin y tzintli y pil y ton y demas terminaciones para dar matices distintos a sustantivos. Lo que me llama mucho la atencion es la manera en que pronuncias el nocniuhtzine, casi me suena a /nocniucfine/ (de antemano te digo que soy todo un novato en esto)... Como se pronuncia la H ahi? y la tz? Lei en tu pagina la interezanticima explicacion de como ha de pronunciarse la TL y me pregunto si hay algun secreto similar para las otras T del nahuatl y lo mismo para la CH (que no se si ha de usarse fuerte como se acostumbra, digamos en la palabra CHAMUCO, o como los Chihuahuences dicen Chihuahua). Veo tambien con agrado (pues me gusta el sonido) que casi siempre se le da a la H un suave sonido de j (gutural?). Aunque entiendo que a veces es muda, aunque no me queda aun claro cuando. Me pregunto si son esos efectos en la pronunciacion, o mi falta de agudeza auditiva, o una combinacion lo que hace que me suene tan distinto de lo que you lo hubiera pronunciado sin antecedentes reales de la phonologia nahuatl? Un cordial saludo y agradecimiento. Tlazocamatzin (esta bien esto?) On Friday 24 January 2003 08:08, Ricardo J. Salvador wrote: > Que tal Alexander, > > On Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 10:34 PM, Alexander Wallace wrote: > > Serias tan amable en enviarme por este medio el texto en nahuatl y en > > espanyol de lo que se dice en ese mensaje de bienvenida? > > Primero, literalmente: > > Cualli tonalli nocniuhtzine > > Buen dia nuestros amigos respetables > > Tlacuatzin in tehuatzin > > Mucho a ustedes respetables > > xonahuiyacan nican in amatl mehxicopa nocniuhtzine > > placentera llegada aqui la hoja mexicana nuestros amigos respetables > > Y el sentido traducido: > > Buen dia respetables amigos nuestros. Les damos a ustedes una muy > cordial bienvenida a esta hoja de lo mexicano. > > Haz de saber que esto es muy dial?ctico y moderno (por ejemplo, el > saludo "cualli tonalli" no es "natural" del nahuatl, ya que es una > traducci?n de la usanza castellana "buen dia." Un saludo nahuatl muy > propio ser?a (entre muchos): "yolicahtzin," lo cual significa > literalmente "que est? vuestra merced tranquilo," pero que significa > que se est? reconociendo a la persona. Este saludo ya se oye tan > arc?ico en los dialectos modernos como se oye su traducci?n en > castellano. > > Por ?ltimo, el uso de "respetables" y "ustedes" en la traducci?n > anterior es para indicar el modo de hablar reverencial del nahuatl, > pero no hay forma de representarlo fielmente en castellano. O sea, en > el texto nahuatl no ver?s palabras equivalentes al "usted" y > "respetable," sino que se modifica el sustantivo correspondiente para > indicar que se habla con reverencia. En la mayor?a de los casos esto se > hace agregando la part?cula "-tzin" al final de la palabra, aunque hay > que tener criterio para hacerlo, puesto que a veces esta misma > part?cula se utiliza para indicar modo diminutivo. Si te interesa este > aspecto del nahuatl, Fran Karttunen ha publicado un estudio especial > sobre el tema: > > Karttunen, F. (1990). "Conventions of polite speech in Nahuatl." > Estudios de Cultura N?huatl 20: 281-296. > > Saludos. > > Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 > 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 > Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu > Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From bcoon at montana.edu Fri Jan 24 22:08:29 2003 From: bcoon at montana.edu (Coon, Brad) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 15:08:29 -0700 Subject: Paleography resource? Message-ID: I have recently been working with a facsimile edition of the Primeros Memoriales. I have come to feel the need for more depth in my knowledge of the the paleography of the period. Can anyone recommend the best or even a 'pretty good' work on the subject? I have exhausted my own resources, those of my library, and have searched Worldcat without any real luck. I originally worked on this material when I had access to both the Univ of Chicago's library and Norm McQuown so any suggestions would be welcomed. thanks, Brad Coon Reference Librarian The Libraries-Montana State University bcoon at montana.edu (406) 994-6026 From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Sat Jan 25 01:36:01 2003 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 19:36:01 -0600 Subject: Paleography resources Message-ID: Estimado Brad: Following is a bibliography of the sources I've gathered to have close and hand while working with colonial manuscripts. They've all got something to offer and complement each other nicely. Saludos, David P.S. There's nothing like drawing up a chart of all the variants of each letter of the alphabet to take the guess out of the work, and practice the science, rather than the art, of paleography; intuition can be a treacherous tool. ***************************************************************** Bribiesca Sumano, Mar?a Elena, Antolog?a de paleograf?a y diplom?tica, 2 vols., Toluca, Universidad Aut?noma del Estado de M?xico, 1991. Bribiesca Sumano, Mar?a Elena, Introducci?n a la paleograf?a, 3a. reimpresi?n, M?xico, Archivo General de la Naci?n, 1981. Colomera y Rodr?guez, Venancio, Paleograf?a castellana, o sea, colecci?n de documentos aut?nticos para comprender con perfecci?n todas las formas de letras manuscritas que se usaron en los siglos XII, XIII, XIV, XV y XVI, alfabetos may?sculas y min?sculas, cifras, signos, abreviaturas, tabla num?rica y un vocabulario del castellano antiguo, con la traducci?n correspondiente en las p?ginas inmediatas, Valladolid, Imprenta de P. de la Llana, 1862. Normas para la transcripci?n de documentos hist?ricos, M?xico, Archivo General de la Naci?n, 1979. Normas para la transcripci?n de documentos y correcci?n de originales para su edici?n, M?xico, Archivo General de la Naci?n, 1981. P?rez Fern?ndez del Castillo, Bernardo, Historia de la escriban?a en la Nueva Espa?a y del notoriado en M?xico, 2a. ed., M?xico, Colegio de Notarios del Distrito Federal/Editorial de Porr?a, 1988. Pezzat Arzave, Delia, Elementos de paleograf?a novohispana, M?xico, Facultad de Filosof?a y Letras, Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1990. Ram?rez Montes, Mina, Manuscritos novohispanos, ejercicios de lectura, 2 vols., M?xico, Instituto de Investigaciones Est?ticas, Universidad Nacional Aut?noma de M?xico, 1990. S?nchez Bueno de Bonfil, Mar?a Cristina, El papel del papel en la Nueva Espa?a, M?xico, Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia, 1993. Villasana Haggard, J.; McLean, Malcolm Dallas, Handbook for translators of Spanish historical documents, Austin, University of Texas, 1941. ***************************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Sat Jan 25 12:52:27 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 13:52:27 +0100 Subject: cualli tonalli. In-Reply-To: <6190F68A-3081-11D7-91B8-00039303140C@iastate.edu> Message-ID: Agradezco muchisimo tu respuesta. Empece siguiendo lo que parece un amigable pero interrumpido curso de nahuatl en http://www.ulsa.edu.mx/public_html/publicaciones/onteanqui/b11/nahuatl.html (aunque no muestra este sitio una manera de ir mas adelante a las lecciones en sus boletines 12-16, los pude encontrar, asi que si hay algun interesado puedo mandar todas las ligas por separado) En una de las lecciones habla en efecto del saltillo, pero no me queaba claro... Tenia pues dudas al respecto (principalmente la tl y la h) que has sido tan amable en aclarar. Estoy pues ya en espera de mis libros para entrarle mas duro al toro, y seguramente volvere por mas consejos. A pesar de que en la lista halla expertos estoy seguro que debe haber tambien quienes, como yo, pueden aprovechar mucho de tus comentarios. Nuevamente un gran saludo y sincero agradecimiento. Alex W. On Saturday 25 January 2003 05:23 pm, Ricardo J. Salvador wrote: > From: Ricardo J. Salvador > Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 10:50:51 PM US/Central > To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu > Subject: Re: cualli tonalli. > > [Alexander, emprendiendo la jornada de hoy me doy cuenta que por alguna > raz?n el servidor de nahuat-l no ha distribuido una respuesta que te > envi? anoche. Lo mas probable es que est? descompuesto por el momento > el aparato aquel y que el lunes lo descubran y lo compongan, pero por > lo pronto, para que no pienses que se te ha ignorado te envio > directamente el mensaje aludido. Saludos.] > > On Friday, January 24, 2003, at 05:16 PM, Alexander Wallace wrote: > > Que tal Alexander, > > Primero, al grano de tus preguntas: > > Lo que me llama mucho la atencion es la manera en que pronuncias el > > nocniuhtzine, casi me suena a /nocniucfine/ (de antemano te digo que > > soy todo > > un novato en esto)... Como se pronuncia la H ahi? y la tz? > > La "h" es el famoso "saltillo." Tu forma de pronunciarlo depender? del > dialecto que ensayes. El sonido "cl?sico" es una interrupci?n literal > del aliento, como quien dice una breve ausencia de sonido en un flujo > de sonido. Sin embargo, en varios dialectos modernos esto ya se ha > convertido en sonido, y es la breve aspiraci?n que detectase, semejante > a una leve "jota" del castellano. > > Creo que hay por lo menos dos razones por las cuales el sonido de la > grabaci?n no te fu? claro. El primero y mas obvio es que la grabaci?n > es de baja calidad, ni hablar. Pudiera prometerte una actualizac?on mas > n?tida pero es mejor anunciarlo ya que est? hecho y no comprometerme a > la ligera. Y segundo, es un sonido que no tiene contraparte en > castellano y por lo tanto tal vez dif?cil de interpretar. > Afortunadamente no es dif?cil producir el sonido, y para esto bastan > unos cuantos modelos auditivos a seguir (este si es un caso en el cual > el apoyo de una comunidad de hablantes ser?a valioso.) Lo otro es que > este es un sonido que no siempre se captura en la graf?a castellana, y > a?n cuando se hace se hace de formas variadas, de modo que en realidad > hay que aprender cuando y como aparece para poder compensar la gran > varianza que existe en su representaci?n gr?fica. > > El sonido de la "tz" no encierra mayor misterio. Pronuncialo como > pronunciaras lo mismo en castellano. > > > Lei en tu pagina la interezanticima explicacion de como ha de > > pronunciarse la > > TL y me pregunto si hay algun secreto similar para las otras T del > > nahuatl > > Para un hablante del castellano s?lo la "tl" presenta dificultades por > no tener contraparte directa en este idioma. Las otras dos "t" ("t" y > "tz") las podr?s pronunciar tranquilamente siguiendo en forma fiel la > pronunciaci?n castellana. > > > y lo mismo para la CH (que no se si ha de usarse fuerte como se > > acostumbra, > > digamos en la palabra CHAMUCO, o como los Chihuahuences dicen > > Chihuahua). > > Por lo general la "ch" indica la che fuerte del castellano. El sonido > suave de la "che chihuahence" que mencionas es un sonido muy importante > del nahuatl, y por lo general se indica con la letra "x" (digo por lo > general porque como es de esperarse por el hecho de que la x ha > cumplido varias funciones en el castellano a trav?s de sus ?pocas, se > encuentran muchos usos idiosincr?ticos de la letra y hay que tener > criterio del nahuatl para interpretarla correctamente en ciertos casos.) > > > Veo tambien con agrado (pues me gusta el sonido) que casi siempre se > > le da a la H > > un suave sonido de j (gutural?). Aunque entiendo que a veces es muda, > > aunque > > no me queda aun claro cuando. > > Espero que la breve explicaci?n anterior del saltillo y sus variantes > dialectales modernas te aclare un poco el tema. Ojo que el sonido de la > "j gutural" que aludes es un sonido fuerte que se produce en la > garganta (como en la ?ltima s?laba de "Heinrich" en alem?n.) No hay que > confundir a este sonido con el saltillo (o aspiraci?n, seg?n tu modelo > dialectal.) > > > Me pregunto si son esos efectos en la pronunciacion, o mi falta de > > agudeza > > auditiva, o una combinacion lo que hace que me suene tan distinto de > > lo que > > you lo hubiera pronunciado sin antecedentes reales de la phonologia > > nahuatl? > > Tal vez la combinaci?n, pero "tu agudeza auditiva" no puede compensar > la mala grabaci?n que has estado usando. A pesar de este obst?culo creo > que con tus preguntas haz indentificado todos los sonidos claves que > habr?s de dominar para mascar bien al nahuatl, con la excepci?n de la > "L" geminada, como en las palabras "pilli" y "calli." Este sonido es > como una "l gorda" ;-), o una "L" de larga duraci?n, y no la "LL" del > casteLLano. > > Mira, para pagarte un poco el haberte desviado con los pininos de mis > primeras grabaciones digitales, te recomiendo que te apoyes de las > varias grabaciones que tengo enlazadas en la hoja que enlista los > varios recursos para el aprendizaje nahuatl. La calidad de tales > grabaciones es mejor y aparte te ofrecen la ventaja de capturar los > sonidos que producen los hablantes nativos del idioma. Aqu? te mando un > sitio en donde el profesor W. J. Taffe de la Universidad Estatal de > Plymouth (New Hampshire) presenta algunas locuciones de un > nativo-hablante del valle de Puebla recitando una poes?a y dando una > bienvenida formal: > > http://oz.plymouth.edu/~wjt/Nahuatl/nahuatl.html > > Y, por ?ltimo, una aclaraci?n respecto al favor que me haces: > > Me tomo la libertad de ponerle cc hacia la lista nahuatera para > > permitir que otros se iluminen con tus respuestas. > > Agradezco las flores ;-), pero los suscritos a esta lista son en su > mayor?a las autoridades acad?micas sobre este idioma y escazamente > necesitan mis "iluminaciones." Al contrario, estoy suscrito porque soy > su humilde aprend?z :-). > > > Un cordial saludo y agradecimiento. > > Tlazocamatzin (esta bien esto?) > > Est? bien, salvo el detallito del saltillo, que nos dar?a > "tlazohcamati." > > Saludos. > > Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 > 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 > Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu > Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From cipactonal at starmedia.com Sun Jan 26 01:37:13 2003 From: cipactonal at starmedia.com (Ignacio Silva) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 20:37:13 -0500 Subject: Cancelacion de proyecto. Message-ID: Listeros: Mediante la presente les informo de la siguiente nota: En el Archivo General de la Nacion, Mexico, se estaba desarrollando desde hace el a?o 2000, un proyecto para la busqueda, identificacion, digitalizacion y descripcion de documentos en lengua nahuatl del fondo documental Tierras. Este proyecto estaba siendo coordinado por mi, Ignacio Silva, solamente que a partir de agosto del a?o pasado se cancelo el proyecto debido a la falta de interes del Director del Archivo Historico Central y de la Direccion General de ese organismo. La falta de argumentos validos les hizo decir que "se le estaba dando demasiada importancia a esos documentos" e incluso se llego a decir "?para que sirven los documentos en nahuatl?". Es importante decir que el proyecto estaba llegando a la mitad, de hecho ya teniamos mas de mil quinientos volumenes revisados (de tres mil setecientos once). Los resultados los tengo en los informes que enviaba constantemente a la direccion del AGN. Para rematar el caso, a fines del a?o pasado me despidieron del Archivo, por lo cual, el proyecto queda definitivamente cancelado, a pesar de que la direccion del AGN, dice tener "mucho interes en el proyecto". Espero que haya alguien con el suficiente interes como para retomar este proyecto y no dejarlo a la mitad. La idea es tener la digitalizacion de esos documentos en CD, y asi poder ofrecerlos a los estudiosos de la lengua y no tengan que trasladarse hasta el Archivo General de la Nacion, Mexico, para consultarlos. Mil gracias por la atencion prestada a la presente. Ignacio Silva Cruz 1a cerrada de 20 de noviembre #17 Col. San Juan Ixhuatepec, Tlalnepantla, Estado de Mexico. C.P. 54180 tel. (52) 5714 4157 correo-e: cipactonal at starmedia.com _______________________________________________________________________________________________________ Obt?n gratis tu cuenta de correo en StarMedia Email. ?Reg?strate hoy mismo!. http://www.starmedia.com/email From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Sun Jan 26 16:59:08 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 10:59:08 -0600 Subject: Cancelacion de proyecto. In-Reply-To: <20030126013709.194331A0F3@smtp.latinmail.com> Message-ID: Me sumo a la opinion de Yukitaka, pero ademas, como mexicano, me da mucha pena que existan quienes, ademas de mexicanos, esten encargados de preservar la riqueza historica de nuestros pueblos, y hagan todo lo contrario. Quien dijo "?para que sirven...?" y quienes consideran como poco importante temas como el nahuatl, deberian avergonzarse por tener el puesto que tienen y si son mexicanos, tambien de considerarse como tales. On Saturday 25 January 2003 07:37 pm, Ignacio Silva wrote: > Listeros: > > Mediante la presente les informo de la siguiente nota: > > En el Archivo General de la Nacion, Mexico, se estaba desarrollando desde > hace el a?o 2000, un proyecto para la busqueda, identificacion, > digitalizacion y descripcion de documentos en lengua nahuatl del fondo > documental Tierras. Este proyecto estaba siendo coordinado por mi, Ignacio > Silva, solamente que a partir de agosto del a?o pasado se cancelo el > proyecto debido a la falta de interes del Director del Archivo Historico > Central y de la Direccion General de ese organismo. > > La falta de argumentos validos les hizo decir que "se le estaba dando > demasiada importancia a esos documentos" e incluso se llego a decir "?para > que sirven los documentos en nahuatl?". > > Es importante decir que el proyecto estaba llegando a la mitad, de hecho ya > teniamos mas de mil quinientos volumenes revisados (de tres mil setecientos > once). Los resultados los tengo en los informes que enviaba constantemente > a la direccion del AGN. > > Para rematar el caso, a fines del a?o pasado me despidieron del Archivo, > por lo cual, el proyecto queda definitivamente cancelado, a pesar de que la > direccion del AGN, dice tener "mucho interes en el proyecto". > > Espero que haya alguien con el suficiente interes como para retomar este > proyecto y no dejarlo a la mitad. La idea es tener la digitalizacion de > esos documentos en CD, y asi poder ofrecerlos a los estudiosos de la lengua > y no tengan que trasladarse hasta el Archivo General de la Nacion, Mexico, > para consultarlos. > > Mil gracias por la atencion prestada a la presente. > > Ignacio Silva Cruz > 1a cerrada de 20 de noviembre #17 > Col. San Juan Ixhuatepec, Tlalnepantla, > Estado de Mexico. C.P. 54180 > tel. (52) 5714 4157 > correo-e: cipactonal at starmedia.com > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ >____________________________ Obt?n gratis tu cuenta de correo en StarMedia > Email. ?Reg?strate hoy mismo!. http://www.starmedia.com/email From takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp Sun Jan 26 10:58:59 2003 From: takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp (Yukitaka Inoue Okubo) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 19:58:59 +0900 Subject: Cancelacion de proyecto. Message-ID: Ignacio, Me da much?sima pena la cancelaci?n de tu proyecto. Me sorprend? que te dijeran que "se le estaba dando demasiada importancia" o "?para que sirven...?" Son documentos de gran importancia no solo para el ?mbito acad?mico --para la historia de sociedades ind?genas en la ?poca colonial, por ejemplo--, sino tambi?n para muchos pueblos ind?genas actuales --como lo son los T?tulos Primordiales--. El asunto es gran pena para m? y para todos los investigadores y estudiantes sobre la historia de M?xico, es algo que impide el futuro avance de estudios en el tema. Practicamente no puedo hacer nada desde el Lejano Oriente, pero espero que haya posibilidad de que se retome el proyecto y no dejarlo a la mitad. Yukitaka Inoue Okubo > Listeros: > > Mediante la presente les informo de la siguiente nota: > > En el Archivo General de la Nacion, Mexico, se estaba desarrollando desde hace el a?o 2000, un proyecto para la busqueda, identificacion, digitalizacion y descripcion de documentos en lengua nahuatl del fondo documental Tierras. Este proyecto estaba siendo coordinado por mi, Ignacio Silva, solamente que a partir de agosto del a?o pasado se cancelo el proyecto debido a la falta de interes del Director del Archivo Historico Central y de la Direccion General de ese organismo. > > La falta de argumentos validos les hizo decir que "se le estaba dando demasiada importancia a esos documentos" e incluso se llego a decir "?para que sirven los documentos en nahuatl?". > > Es importante decir que el proyecto estaba llegando a la mitad, de hecho ya teniamos mas de mil quinientos volumenes revisados (de tres mil setecientos once). Los resultados los tengo en los informes que enviaba constantemente a la direccion del AGN. > > Para rematar el caso, a fines del a?o pasado me despidieron del Archivo, por lo cual, el proyecto queda definitivamente cancelado, a pesar de que la direccion del AGN, dice tener "mucho interes en el proyecto". > > Espero que haya alguien con el suficiente interes como para retomar este proyecto y no dejarlo a la mitad. La idea es tener la digitalizacion de esos documentos en CD, y asi poder ofrecerlos a los estudiosos de la lengua y no tengan que trasladarse hasta el Archivo General de la Nacion, Mexico, para consultarlos. > > Mil gracias por la atencion prestada a la presente. > > Ignacio Silva Cruz > 1a cerrada de 20 de noviembre #17 > Col. San Juan Ixhuatepec, Tlalnepantla, > Estado de Mexico. C.P. 54180 > tel. (52) 5714 4157 > correo-e: cipactonal at starmedia.com > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________ > Obt?n gratis tu cuenta de correo en StarMedia Email. ?Reg?strate hoy mismo!. http://www.starmedia.com/email > > From takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp Sun Jan 26 23:53:49 2003 From: takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp (Yukitaka Inoue Okubo) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 08:53:49 +0900 Subject: Paleography resource? Message-ID: The next book has been useful to me. Agustin Millares Carlo & Jose Ignacio Mantecon, _Album de paleografia hispanoamericana de los siglos XVI y XVII_ Mexico, Instituto Panamericano de Geografia e Historia, 1955, 3 vols. Yukitaka Inoue O. From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Jan 27 04:56:05 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 23:56:05 -0500 Subject: Verbing #3 Message-ID: Don't worry about the meaning of the '#3' -- it is just to keep my records straight. I thought that nocniuhtzitzihuan might be interested in an organization of verbs formed off nouns in Nahuatl. It serves two purposes: 1) it speeds up learning the language by organizing related vocabulary; 2) it helps you "feel" the related meanings better. Verbing 3 words are built on a noun base (like all verbing derivations!!) and the suffixes are "-ihui" and "-ahui". Both suffixes mean 'to become (like the base noun)'. Best regards, Joe a:calli canoe, boat a:calihui it becomes grooved a:to:lli atole a:to:lihui it becomes soft calli house, space cacalihui it becomes hollow yahualli round pad yahualihui it becomes round caxitl bowl caxitl it becomes depressed, bowl-like chi:lli chile chichi:lihui it becomes red cicuilli waist cicuilihui it becomes thin co:lli something bent co:lihui it bends como:lli ravine como:lihui it forms a hollow tli:lli soot tli:lihui it becomes black cue:chtli something fine cue:chihui it becomes pulverized huacalli basket huacalihui it becomes hollowed huitolli bow huitolihui it arches mimilli cylinder, column mimilihui it becomes round nolli s.t. twisted nolihui it becomes twisted olo:lli ball olo:lihui it becomes round pazolli tangle pazolihui it comes tangled texa:lli coarse sand texa:lihui it becomes numerous tlahpalli effort, strength tlahpalihui he exerts effort xoctli olla xoquihui it becomes like an olla, stinks cototztli wrinkle cocototzahui he becomes paralyzed huitztli thorn huitzahui it becomes pointed pi:tztli s.t. hard, pit pi:tzahui it hardens quiquiztli trumpet quiquizahui it becomes perforated xipochtli hollow (n.) xixipochahui it forms hollows xolochtli wrinkle xolochahui it becomes wrinkled From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Jan 27 05:00:41 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:00:41 -0500 Subject: Verbing #5 Message-ID: Verbing #5 has a "-huia" suffix. It means 'to apply the base noun to the indicated object. (I note that I have been sloppy with vowel length marking, especially in the prefixes [which I set off with hyphens], so I apologize de antemano.) Joe a:cacuextli weir tla-a:cacuexhuia he uses a weir a:calli boat nin[o]-a:calhuia I boat for pleasure a:calli boat c-a:calhuia they take him off in a boat ahmo:lli soap plant m[o]-ahmolhuia they wash with soap ahhuatl thorn nech-ahhuahuia it pricks me a:matl paper m[o]-a:mahuia he is covered with paper amochitl tin nic-amochihuia I add tin to it atlan water place quim-atlanhuia he drowns them a:to:lli atole c-ato:lhuiah they give him atole a:toya:tl river nech-a:toya:huiah they throw me into the river a:xca:itl possession quimo-a:xca:huia he makes it his possession a:xin axin c-axhuiah they put axin in it a:xi:xtla:lli urinated soil nic-a:xi:xtla:lhuia I put urinated soil on it cacahuatl cacao nino-cacahuahuia I take cacao camana:lli joke nite-camana:lhuia I kid around ca:ca:xtli carrying frame qui-ca:ca:xhuia he carries st. in a c.f. chi:lli chile tic-chi:lhuiah we put chile on it chiquihuitl basket nic-chiquihuia I carry s.t. in a basket ciyacatl arm qui-ciyacahuia he carries st under his arm cochilo knife qui-cochilohuihque they knifed him oco:tzotl pine tar m[o]-oco:tzohuia pine resin is applied cua:cuahuitl horn nech-cua:cuahuia it gores me cuitlatl excrement nitla-cuitlahuia I fertilize eztli blood nic-ezhuia I cover it with blood huacalli basket tla-huacalhuiah they carry st. in cages huehpo:lli sister-in-law mo-huepolhuia he "lives" with his sister-in-law huitolli bow quintla-huitolhuiah they shoot them with bows ichcatl cotton niqu-ichcahuia I cover it with cotton i:xtli face, surface nitla-i:xhuia I level something mahpilli finger qui-mahpilhuia he points at her ma:tlatl net tla-ma:tlahuia he catches st. with a net mecatl cord tla-mecahuia he fastens st. with a cord molicpitl elbow nech-molicpihuia he elbows me mo:n-na:ntli mother-in-law mo-mo:n-na:nhuia he lives in concubinage with his mother-in-law nanacatl mushroom mo-nanacahuia he takes mushrooms nexa:yo:tl ash water qui-nexa:yo:huia he treats it with ash water nextli ash qui-nexhuia he puts ashes on it nohmah self, will mo-nohmahuia he acts of his own accord ochpa:hua:ztli broom te-ochpa:hua:zhuia he sweeps people away octli octli m[o]-ochuia he is affected by wine oco:tzotl pine pitch c-ocotzohuia he applies pine pitch to it o:lli rubber c-o:lhuiah they coat it with rubber olo:lli ball tech-olo:lhuiah they surround us omitl bone tla-omihuiah they burnish st. with a bone oquichtli male, man tla-oquichhuia she endures st. like a man o:zto:tl cave timo-o:zto:huiz you will hurl yourself into a cave piya:ztli tube nitla-piya:zhuia I drink st. with a tube quechtli neck tzontli hair nech-quechtzonhuiah they lasso me about the neck sebo fat, grease nitla-sebohuia I grease st. tamalli tamale mo-tamalhuiah they make tamales for themselves tapalcatl potsherd mo-tapacahuia it is polished with a potsherd tetl stone nitla-tehuia I pound st. te:ntli lip cualactli saliva, poison te-te:ncualachuia it injects venom in s.o. te:ntli xo:chitl flower te-te:nxochihuiani one who seduces with words te:ntli neuctli honey mo-te:nneuchuia he smears honey on his lips teo:tl calli house qui-teo:calhuihqueh they hurled him from a temple teo:tl cuitlatl excrement tla-teo:cuitlahuiah they gild st. teo:tl xa:lli sand nitla-teo:xa:lhuia I abrade st. with fine sand tepexitl crag nic-tepexihuia I throw him from a crag tepoztli iron, copper nitla-tepozhuia I chop st. tepoztli mecatl rope, cord niquin-tepozmecahuia I chain them up tepoztli mi:tl arrow qui-tepozmi:huiah they shoot him with an iron bolt (crossbow) te:tza:huitl omen quimo-te:tza:huia he takes it as an omen textli corn dough tla-texhuia he treats st. with dough te:zcatl mirror mo-te:zchuiah they see themselves in a mirror ti:zatl chalk nino-ti:zahuia I apply chalk to myself tla:catl person tecolo:tl owl tla:catecolo:tl devil te-tla:catecolo:huia he causes s.o. to be possessed tla:lli earth qui-tla:lhuia he mounds earth on it tletl fire quiquiztli trumpet quin-tlequiquizhuia he shoots them with a gun tli:lli soot nic-tli:lhuia I apply black to st. to:chtli rabbit ma:tlatl net tla-to:chma:tlahuia he snares rabbits tompiahtli deep basket tla-tompiahhuiah they carry st. in deep baskets tzinacan bat cuitlatl excrement tla-tzinacancuitlahuia he uses bat excrement glue tzontli hair nitla-tzonhuia nitla-tzohuia I snare st. tzontli nitlatla-tzonhuiz I will argue xi:cohtlii large bee cuitlatl nitla-xi:cohcuitlahuia I wax st. xo:chitl flower nite-xo:chihuia I bewitch people, I pervert people yo:lli heart ce:tl ice nino-yo:lce:huia I lose my anger zoquitl mud nic-zoquihuia I apply mud to it From dcwright at prodigy.net.mx Mon Jan 27 02:05:05 2003 From: dcwright at prodigy.net.mx (David Wright) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 20:05:05 -0600 Subject: Agradecimiento Message-ID: Estimados listeros: Estoy terminando de escribir mi tesis de doctorado en El Colegio de Michoac'an (Los otom'ies: cultura, lengua y comunicaci'on gr'afica), y aparte de citarles a ustedes en varias de las notas, les dediqu'e un p'arrafo en los agradecimientos. Les env'io este p'arrafo por el presente medio: ********************************************************* Los suscriptores a la lista de correo electr'onico Nahuat-l, entre ellos varios de los principales expertos en el idioma n'ahuatl, contribuyeron con sus sugerencias al an'alisis de algunas de las glosas en n'ahuatl que se encuentran en el Mapa de Huamantla y el C'odice de Huichapan, as'i como ciertas frases en el mismo idioma, relacionadas con el concepto de la escritura y la pintura. Fue especialmente 'util el apoyo proporcionado por Anthony Appleyard, R. Joe Campbell, Chichiltic Coyotl, Frances Karttunen, Mark David Morris, Sergio Romero, John F. Schwaller, Barry D. Sell y Alexis Wimmer. ********************************************************* Gracias por su apoyo. Un saludo, David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Jan 27 17:31:16 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:31:16 -0600 Subject: Other native languages Message-ID: MIXTEC LANGUAGE PROGRAM (dates, cost changes and new contact information) Where: Oaxaca, Mexico through San Diego State University. When: June 16-July 26, 2003 Description: San Diego State offers both an on-campus program and a summer intensive program in Mixteco.? The on-campus program focuses on the dialect of the Mixteca Baja, while the summer intensive offers dialects from the Mixteca Baja and Alta.? One of the primary purposes of this program is to provide training to students who will eventually work in public health, education, criminal justice, public administration, or other areas where there are unmet needs for Mixteco speakers. . Language courses are taught by native Mixtec speakers from the faculty of the Centro de Investigaciones y Estudios Superiores en Antropolog?a Social (CIESAS) in Oaxaca and from the Instituto Tecnol?gico de Oaxaca (ITO). In addition to language instruction, students will visit Mixteco speaking villages and attend lectures on Mixtec history and culture. Cost: $2000 (approximate, does not include transportation or room and board) Contact: Elizabeth S?enz-Ackerrmann, Center for Latin American Studies, Storm Hall 146, San Diego State University San Diego, California 92182-4446 (619) 594-1104 email: esaenz at mail.sdsu.edu KAQCHIKEL MAYA (change includes new contact information only) Where: Antigua (Guatemala) through Tulane University. When: June 23 ? August 1 Description: The elementary course participation is limited to approximately 10 non-Kaqchikels and 12 Kaqchikel Maya. The language sessions are typically presented in the mornings and cultural activities in the afternoons. As part of the cultural activities, students are expected to carry out a limited research project with a Kaqchikel co-investigator. The course will begin in Antigua, Guatemala. Daily instruction includes small and large group language learning with Kaqchikel instructors. Course includes grammar analysis with linguistics, and cultural orientations with guest speakers from surrounding communities. The following courses will be offered during the program. Students have the option of taking either language-only for 3 credits or the 6-credit option: Beginning Kaqchikel Maya (3); Intermediate Kaqchikel Maya (3); Advanced Kaqchikel Maya (3); and Introductory Kaqchikel Language & Culture (6 Credits). Cost: $2,600 (three-credit option), $2,800 (six-credit option) Application Deadline: March 28 Contact: Dr. Judith M. Maxwell, Department of Anthropology Tulane University. New Orleans, Louisiana 70118-5698 or Deborah Ramil, Stone Center for Latin American Studies Summer Program Coordination Office, Caroline Richardson Building, Tulane University. email: dramill at tulane.edu, maxwell at mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu or walter.little at cwix.com Application available at: http://www.tulane.edu/~maxwell/oxlajujapp.htm http://www.tulane.edu/~maxwell/oxlajuj.htm BEGINNING AYMARA (change includes new information for FLAS aplicants) Where: University of Chicago. When: Summer Session 2003, June 23 ? August 22 Description: The Center for Latin American Studies at the University of Chicago announces a 9-week intensive beginner's course in Aymara for Summer 2003. Course instructor Miguel Huanca uses a wide variety of authentic cultural materials, including film, literature, and music, along with his text Aymar Akhamawa and accompanying recorded dialogues. Students acquire proficiency in formal language structures, conversation, and reading and writing skills. The course is appropriate for master's, doctoral and advanced undergraduate students, particularly, though not exclusively, those in the fields of Andean anthropology, history, and contemporary politics, as well as students pursuing a concentration in linguistics. Classes meet 4 hours per day, Monday through Friday, for nine weeks for a total of 180 contact hours, the equivalent of a full-academic year program of intensive study. Summer FLAS grants (Title VI) may be used for this course. Registration deadline: May 30, 2003 (for non-University of Chicago students). Students are encouraged to apply as early as possible to ensure enrollment and explore funding options. Cost: Tuition: Estimated University of Chicago tuition for the three-course sequence totals $5,450. (There will be a reduced summer tuition rate to meet FLAS allowance.) Contact: University of Chicago Center for Latin American Studies University of Chicago, 5848 South University Ave., Kelly Hall 310 Chicago, IL 60637 Phone: (773) 702-8402 Email: clas at uchicago.edu Or Summer Session Office University of Chicago 5835 S. Kimbark Avenue, Judd Hall Room 207 Chicago, IL 60637 Phone: (773) 702-6033 Website: www.grahamschool.uchicago.edu INTENSIVE QUECHUA IN CUSCO, PERU (price change for non-credit option) Where: Escuela Andina de Postgrado, Cusco (Peru) through The University of Michigan. When: July 3 ? August 16. Description: Three levels of intensive Southern Quechua will be taught: Intensive Beginning Quechua, Intensive Intermediate Quechua, and Intensive Advanced Quechua. Classes will meet intensively for eight weeks. Enrollment will be limited to 15 for each of the five levels. The program is open to all graduate and professional school students. A series of lectures on Quechua culture and history and an extensive program of excursions and cultural events will supplement the courses. Students may choose to take the course for University of Michigan credit by enrolling in the corresponding courses (LACS 471/472, 473/474, and 475/476), or may take the course without University credit by enrolling directly through Escuela Andina de Postgrado. The same academic criteria will apply to credit and non-credit students. Costs: Costs are based on estimates. Undergraduate: (Michigan resident) $1840, (non-resident) $5450. Graduate: (Michigan resident) $2980, (non-resident) $6025. Not-for-credit option: $1470. FLAS fellowships available through Latin American and Caribbean Studies cover full tuition plus a modest stipend; application due Feb. 1. Deadline for applications: May 1, 2003 Contact: David Frye, Latin American and Caribbean Studies, lacs at umich.edu (734) 647-0844 Website: http://www.umich.edu/~iinet/lacs/ Organizers: Latin American and Caribbean Studies, University of Michigan (in conjunction with the Escuela Andina de Postgrado, Centro Bartolom? de las Casas, Cusco, Peru.) BEGINNING INTENSIVE GUARAN? (can accommodate graduate students in program) Where: Asunci?n, Paraguay through the Summer Seminar Abroad for Spanish Teachers program at Ohio State University When: July 7-26, 2003 Description: This is a two-week intensive course in basic Guaran? incorporated in the annual Summer Seminar Abroad for Spanish Teachers program through Ohio State University. Program participants have the option to enroll either in a graduate Spanish linguistics course on Languages in Contact? or an intensive course in beginning Guaran?, taught by native speakers at the language school Idipar. Program participants will be lodged in hotels in Asunci?n. Excursions around Asunci?n and the surrounding countryside will also be offered. Cost: $1,899.00 Application Deadline: March 31, 2003 Contact Information: Terrell Morgan at Ohio State University, Department of Spanish and Portuguese, 226 Cunz Hall, 1841 Millikin Road, Columbus, OH 43210. (614) 292-9555. Website: http://sppo.ohio-state.edu/faculty/morgan.3/ssat03.htm From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Jan 27 19:27:49 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:27:49 -0600 Subject: cualli tonalli. Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 22:50:51 -0600 Subject: Re: cualli tonalli. From: "Ricardo J. Salvador" To: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu On Friday, January 24, 2003, at 05:16 PM, Alexander Wallace wrote: Que tal Alexander, Primero, al grano de tus preguntas: > Lo que me llama mucho la atencion es la manera en que pronuncias el > nocniuhtzine, casi me suena a /nocniucfine/ (de antemano te digo que > soy todo > un novato en esto)... Como se pronuncia la H ahi? y la tz? La "h" es el famoso "saltillo." Tu forma de pronunciarlo depender? del dialecto que ensayes. El sonido "cl?sico" es una interrupci?n literal del aliento, como quien dice una breve ausencia de sonido en un flujo de sonido. Sin embargo, en varios dialectos modernos esto ya se ha convertido en sonido, y es la breve aspiraci?n que detectase, semejante a una leve "jota" del castellano. Creo que hay por lo menos dos razones por las cuales el sonido de la grabaci?n no te fu? claro. El primero y mas obvio es que la grabaci?n es de baja calidad, ni hablar. Pudiera prometerte una actualizac?on mas n?tida pero es mejor anunciarlo ya que est? hecho y no comprometerme a la ligera. Y segundo, es un sonido que no tiene contraparte en castellano y por lo tanto tal vez dif?cil de interpretar. Afortunadamente no es dif?cil producir el sonido, y para esto bastan unos cuantos modelos auditivos a seguir (este si es un caso en el cual el apoyo de una comunidad de hablantes ser?a valioso.) Lo otro es que este es un sonido que no siempre se captura en la graf?a castellana, y a?n cuando se hace se hace de formas variadas, de modo que en realidad hay que aprender cuando y como aparece para poder compensar la gran varianza que existe en su representaci?n gr?fica. El sonido de la "tz" no encierra mayor misterio. Pronuncialo como pronunciaras lo mismo en castellano. > Lei en tu pagina la interezanticima explicacion de como ha de > pronunciarse la > TL y me pregunto si hay algun secreto similar para las otras T del > nahuatl Para un hablante del castellano s?lo la "tl" presenta dificultades por no tener contraparte directa en este idioma. Las otras dos "t" ("t" y "tz") las podr?s pronunciar tranquilamente siguiendo en forma fiel la pronunciaci?n castellana. > y lo mismo para la CH (que no se si ha de usarse fuerte como se > acostumbra, > digamos en la palabra CHAMUCO, o como los Chihuahuences dicen > Chihuahua). Por lo general la "ch" indica la che fuerte del castellano. El sonido suave de la "che chihuahence" que mencionas es un sonido muy importante del nahuatl, y por lo general se indica con la letra "x" (digo por lo general porque como es de esperarse por el hecho de que la x ha cumplido varias funciones en el castellano a trav?s de sus ?pocas, se encuentran muchos usos idiosincr?ticos de la letra y hay que tener criterio del nahuatl para interpretarla correctamente en ciertos casos.) > Veo tambien con agrado (pues me gusta el sonido) que casi siempre se > le da a la H > un suave sonido de j (gutural?). Aunque entiendo que a veces es muda, > aunque > no me queda aun claro cuando. Espero que la breve explicaci?n anterior del saltillo y sus variantes dialectales modernas te aclare un poco el tema. Ojo que el sonido de la "j gutural" que aludes es un sonido fuerte que se produce en la garganta (como en la ?ltima s?laba de "Heinrich" en alem?n.) No hay que confundir a este sonido con el saltillo (o aspiraci?n, seg?n tu modelo dialectal.) > Me pregunto si son esos efectos en la pronunciacion, o mi falta de > agudeza > auditiva, o una combinacion lo que hace que me suene tan distinto de > lo que > you lo hubiera pronunciado sin antecedentes reales de la phonologia > nahuatl? Tal vez la combinaci?n, pero "tu agudeza auditiva" no puede compensar la mala grabaci?n que has estado usando. A pesar de este obst?culo creo que con tus preguntas haz indentificado todos los sonidos claves que habr?s de dominar para mascar bien al nahuatl, con la excepci?n de la "L" geminada, como en las palabras "pilli" y "calli." Este sonido es como una "l gorda" ;-), o una "L" de larga duraci?n, y no la "LL" del casteLLano. Mira, para pagarte un poco el haberte desviado con los pininos de mis primeras grabaciones digitales, te recomiendo que te apoyes de las varias grabaciones que tengo enlazadas en la hoja que enlista los varios recursos para el aprendizaje nahuatl. La calidad de tales grabaciones es mejor y aparte te ofrecen la ventaja de capturar los sonidos que producen los hablantes nativos del idioma. Aqu? te mando un sitio en donde el profesor W. J. Taffe de la Universidad Estatal de Plymouth (New Hampshire) presenta algunas locuciones de un nativo-hablante del valle de Puebla recitando una poes?a y dando una bienvenida formal: http://oz.plymouth.edu/~wjt/Nahuatl/nahuatl.html Y, por ?ltimo, una aclaraci?n respecto al favor que me haces: > Me tomo la libertad de ponerle cc hacia la lista nahuatera para > permitir que otros se iluminen con tus respuestas. Agradezco las flores ;-), pero los suscritos a esta lista son en su mayor?a las autoridades acad?micas sobre este idioma y escazamente necesitan mis "iluminaciones." Al contrario, estoy suscrito porque soy su humilde aprend?z :-). > Un cordial saludo y agradecimiento. > Tlazocamatzin (esta bien esto?) Est? bien, salvo el detallito del saltillo, que nos dar?a "tlazohcamati." Saludos. Ricardo J. Salvador Voice: 515.294.9595 1126 Agronomy Hall Telefax: 515.294.8146 Iowa State University e-mail: salvador at iastate.edu Ames, IA 50011-1010 WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad From bcoon at montana.edu Mon Jan 27 20:37:50 2003 From: bcoon at montana.edu (Coon, Brad) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:37:50 -0700 Subject: Paleography resource? Message-ID: Many thanks to all of you who suggested sources. Brad Coon Reference Librarian The Libraries-Montana State University bcoon at montana.edu (406) 994-6026 -----Original Message----- From: Yukitaka Inoue Okubo [mailto:takaio at po.aianet.ne.jp] Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 4:54 PM To: Coon, Brad Cc: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu Subject: Re: Paleography resource? The next book has been useful to me. Agustin Millares Carlo & Jose Ignacio Mantecon, _Album de paleografia hispanoamericana de los siglos XVI y XVII_ Mexico, Instituto Panamericano de Geografia e Historia, 1955, 3 vols. Yukitaka Inoue O. From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Jan 27 23:31:54 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:31:54 -0500 Subject: Verbing 1 Message-ID: Verbing 1a and 1b The verbing suffixes (1a) "-ti" and (1b) "-ya" both mean 'become' and they are intransitive. They both take a "-lia" causative which is identical in form to the benefactive suffix "-lia". When the causative is added to "-ya", the "-ya" is deleted. "-ti" and "-ya" may both be added together to a noun, always in that order, and usually spelled "-tia". -ti a:cah someone a:cahti he becomes someone a:huiani harlot a:huianiti she becomes a harlot a:huilhue:hueh wicked old man a:huilhue:huehti he becomes a "dirty old man" a:huitl aunt a:huitiz she will be an aunt amante:catl feather worker amante:cati he becomes a feather worker ahtleh nothing n-ahtlehtiz I will become nothing calpixqui house steward calpixcati* he becomes a house steward caquiztli sound caquizti it is heard cha:lchihuitl green stone cha:chihuitih they become like green stones * -ca and -qui (in nouns of this sort) are in alternation; -qui appears in word-final position and -ca appears in "protected" position (i.e., inside a word). cuahuitl tree pilli child cuappilli young tree cuappilti it becomes a young tree cua:uhtli eagle ti-cua:uhti you become an eagle warrior cui:cani singer cui:caniti he becomes a singer hue:hueh old man hue:huehti he becomes an old man huentli offering huentiz it will become an offering icni:uhtli friend t-icni:uhtiz you will become a friend icno:tl orphan oquichtli male, man icno:oquichtli widower n-icno:oquichti I become a widower itlah something itlahtiz he will become something ilamatl old woman ilamatizqueh they will become old women itzcuintli dog itzcuinti she becomes furious machiztli knowledge machizti it becomes known mahuiztli wonder, awe mahuizti he is esteemed ma:lli captive ti-malti you become a captive micca:huah one who has a dead person miccahuahti he is bereaved na:ntli mother na:ntiz she will become a mother nelli truth nelti it comes to pass no:ntli mute person no:ntiz he will become speechless o:ce:lo:tl ocelot t-o:ce:lo:ti you become an ocelot warrior omitl bone n-oomiti I become thin oquichtli male, man oquichti he becomes a warrior o:tztli pregnant woman o:tzti she becomes pregnant pipiyolin wild bee pipiyolti he becomes like a wild bee quimichin mouse ni-quimichti I become a mouse tahtli father ti-tahtiz you will become a father teo:tl god teo:t he became a god te:uctli lord ti-te:uctiz you will rule teuhtli dust teuhti it becomes dust tla:catl person tla:cati she is born tla:cohtli slave tla:cohtiz he will labor tla:lli earth tla:lti it becomes earth tlahtli uncle tlahtizqueh they will become uncles xi:cohtli large bee ti-xi:cohtli you become a bee xo:coyo:tl youngest sibling xo:coyo:tiz he will be the youngest child xolopihtli stupid person ni-xolopihtiz I will be stupid ya:o:tl enemy ya:o:tiz he will battle zoquitl mud zoquiti it becomes mud -ya ce:tl ice cece:ya it becomes cold iztatl salt iztaya it turns white xocotl st. sour, fruit xocoya it sours hue:i big hue:(i)ya it grows both -ti and -ya a:tl water a:tia it melts cualli good cualtia he is good cue:chtli st. fine, tiny cue:chtia it is pulverized etl bean etia it becomes heavy i:tztli obsidian i:ztia it becomes cold maza:tl deer maza:tiz he will become a deer o:lli rubber o:ltia it becomes resilient piya:ztli tube piya:ztia it becomes slender pinolli pinole pinoltia it becomes like pinole tepoztli iron, copper ni-tepoztia I become hardened in evil From campbel at indiana.edu Mon Jan 27 23:32:58 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:32:58 -0500 Subject: Verbing 5a Message-ID: Verbing 5a There is an '-oa' suffix that forms intransitive verbs from nouns, meaning "to use or produce the base noun." a:matl paper ahtlapalli leaf, wing a:mahtlapaloa it forms leaves a:yacachtli rattle n-a:yacachtli I "play" a rattle ayohtli gourd tamalli tamale n-ayohtamaloa I make gourd tamales camana:lli jest (n.) camana:loah they jest capolin cherry, berry cacapoloa it produces berries camatl mouth challi jaw camachaloa he opens his mouth caxitl bowl caxoz she will use a bowl chihcha saliva piya:ztli tube ni-chihchipiazoa I spit a stream tlaxcalli tortilla tlacaloah they make tortillas tamalli tamale tamaloa she makes tamales maxalli crotch, fork maxaloa it forms crotches (tree) ma:itl hand tlaxcalli tortilla mamatlaxcaloa it claps its hands (referring to a butterfly and using the metaphor of tortilla-making-clapping) ma:itl hand pilli child mahpilli finger mahpiloah they point pi:tztli whistle (n.) pi:tzoa he whistles ma:itl hand pi:tztli whistle mapi:tzoa he whistles with his hand nacaztli ear ni-nacazoa I listen ma:itl hand tletl fire quiquiztli trumpet matlequiquizoa he fires a portable gun tepona:ztli two-toned drum tepona:zozqueh they will play a drum tianquiztli marketplace tianquizoa he deals tlantli tooth quiquiztli trumpet tlanquiquizoa he whistles with his teeth tlacua:lli food, meal tlacualoah they prepare food From susana at dragotto.com Tue Jan 28 08:49:37 2003 From: susana at dragotto.com (Susana) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 00:49:37 -0800 Subject: escuela para obstetricas? Message-ID: Estimados amigos, El proximo sabado tengo que dar una pequena platica sobre la condicion de la mujer Azteca, y tengo una duda que mucho les agradeceria me ayudaran a colmar. En algunos libros que tratan la vida diaria de los Aztecas se asevera que solo las mujeres podian ejercer la profesion de obstetrica. Dado que en los varios informes sobre las materias que se impartian en el Calmecac femenino no se hace ninguna referencia a la obstetricia, quisiera saber EN DONE aprendian el oficio. Habia alguna escuela especial? Agradezco de antemano su experta ayuda. Pueden escribir tambien en ingles, si asi lo desean. Susana Moraleda From CBodif9907 at aol.com Tue Jan 28 13:58:23 2003 From: CBodif9907 at aol.com (CBodif9907 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:58:23 EST Subject: Unsubscribe Message-ID: It's been fun lurking, but please remove me from the nahuat-L e-mail list. Thanks so much. cab -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: