From campbel at indiana.edu Sat May 10 22:13:44 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 17:13:44 -0500 Subject: tequixquitl Message-ID: Note the following sentence quoted from Sahagun's _Psalmodia Christiana_, edited by Arthur Anderson (p. 74): Ic oitlacauh in cemanaoatl, in tlalticpactli, ca **otequixquiquiz**, otetzacat, aocmo vel muchiua in *tonacauitl*, aocmo no qualli in itlaaquillo. Translation given: Thus the world, the earth, was corrupted; for niter spread; [the soil] grew sterile. No longer could our foodstuffs be produced; likewise no longer were their fruits good. I have a question and a comment: 1) first, the comment: on checking the facsimile of the Psalmodia, I found that the modern book contains a typographical error; the word is "tonacaiutl", not "tonacauitl". Further, the 'our' in the English '...our foodstuffs...' translation is probably related to the initial "to-", based on the assumption that it is a first person plural possessive. But with the correct spelling -- and regularized to "tonacayotl" -- it is obvious that it involves the nominalization of "to:na" embedded in "-yotl". And the absolutive ending made the possessive interpretation impossible anyway. 2) second, the question: I assume that "otequixquiquiz" is the preterit of "tequixquiquiza", with the noun "tequixquitl" embedded in the verb "quiza". I had assumed that the Spanish borrowing "tequexquite" was a widely used vocabulary item in Mexican Spanish, but I have just multiple evidence to the contrary. Can someone enlighten me on this issue? As an additional bonus, I would like some helpful comment on the morphological composition of the original Nahuatl noun "tequixquitl". --My dubits are concerned with whether "-quixtia" ever nominalizes like this. Tlazohcamatihtzin, Joe p.s. Note -- Dr. Cecilio A. Robelo, _Diccionario de Aztequismos: o sea jardin de las raices aztecas, no date, Mexico, DF p. 262: tequesquite. -- (te-quix=quitl: tetl, piedra; quixquitl, brotante. eflorescente; derivado de quiza, salir espontaneamente: "Piedra que sale por si' sola, eflorescente"). Eflorescencias salinas naturales, formadas de sesquicarbonato de soda y de cloruro de sodio. [footnote to above] El tequesquite, del que haci'an mucho useo los mexicanos, tiene hoy todavi'a muchos uusos en la industria y en la cocina. Hay de cuatro clases: espumilla, confitillo, cascarilla y polvillo. Las dos primeras especies, que son las mejores, se forman de la agua detenida en pequen~os pozos cuando baja o refluye la laguna de Texcoco. Cuando se avapora el li'quido bajo la influencia de los rayos solares, queda un sedimento confusamente cristalizado. Las otras dos especies, que son menos estimadas, son las eflorescencias producidas espontaneamente en el suelo. Se emplea el tequesquite en la colada de los lienzos, y jaboneros lo usan como alcalino para saponificacio'n de las grasas. From idiez at mac.com Sun May 11 14:58:07 2003 From: idiez at mac.com (idiez at mac.com) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 09:58:07 -0500 Subject: tequixquitl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Joe, I talked to my sister-in-law about tequesquite. She says when she was little, and still living on the ranch (El Tepetate, Zacatecas), her mother would buy tequesquite, in the form of granules, like table salt. It was only used as a meat tenderizer. For example, if they were boiling a chicken, and the meat was very tough, they would put tequesquite in the water. You can still buy it here in Zacatecas. I'm also stumped with how "quixtia" gets nominalized in this word, if indeed this is the correct root. Nominalization including the preterite suffix "-qui", however, is common in Huastecan Nahuatl. For example, "nitlamachtia" > "nitlamachtihqui" > "nitlamachtihquetl". tequixqui John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco García Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 México +52 (492) 768-6048 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 05:13 PM, r. joe campbell wrote: > Note the following sentence quoted from Sahagun's _Psalmodia > Christiana_, > edited by Arthur Anderson (p. 74): > > Ic oitlacauh in cemanaoatl, in tlalticpactli, ca **otequixquiquiz**, > otetzacat, aocmo vel muchiua in *tonacauitl*, aocmo no qualli in > itlaaquillo. > > Translation given: Thus the world, the earth, was corrupted; for > niter > spread; [the soil] grew sterile. No longer could our foodstuffs be > produced; likewise no longer were their fruits good. > > I have a question and a comment: > > 1) first, the comment: on checking the facsimile of the Psalmodia, I > found that the modern book contains a typographical error; the word is > "tonacaiutl", not "tonacauitl". Further, the 'our' in the English > '...our > foodstuffs...' translation is probably related to the initial "to-", > based > on the assumption that it is a first person plural possessive. But > with > the correct spelling -- and regularized to "tonacayotl" -- it is > obvious > that it involves the nominalization of "to:na" embedded in "-yotl". > And the absolutive ending made the possessive interpretation impossible > anyway. > > 2) second, the question: I assume that "otequixquiquiz" is the > preterit > of "tequixquiquiza", with the noun "tequixquitl" embedded in the verb > "quiza". I had assumed that the Spanish borrowing "tequexquite" was a > widely used vocabulary item in Mexican Spanish, but I have just > multiple > evidence to the contrary. > > Can someone enlighten me on this issue? > > As an additional bonus, I would like some helpful comment on the > morphological composition of the original Nahuatl noun "tequixquitl". > --My dubits are concerned with whether "-quixtia" ever nominalizes like > this. > > Tlazohcamatihtzin, > > Joe > > p.s. Note -- Dr. Cecilio A. Robelo, _Diccionario de Aztequismos: o sea > jardin de las raices aztecas, no date, Mexico, DF > > p. 262: tequesquite. -- (te-quix=quitl: tetl, piedra; quixquitl, > brotante. eflorescente; derivado de quiza, salir espontaneamente: > "Piedra que sale por si' sola, eflorescente"). Eflorescencias salinas > naturales, formadas de sesquicarbonato de soda y de cloruro de sodio. > > [footnote to above] El tequesquite, del que haci'an mucho useo los > mexicanos, tiene hoy todavi'a muchos uusos en la industria y en la > cocina. > Hay de cuatro clases: espumilla, confitillo, cascarilla y polvillo. > Las dos primeras especies, que son las mejores, se forman de la agua > detenida en pequen~os pozos cuando baja o refluye la laguna de Texcoco. > Cuando se avapora el li'quido bajo la influencia de los rayos solares, > queda un sedimento confusamente cristalizado. Las otras dos especies, > que > son menos estimadas, son las eflorescencias producidas espontaneamente > en > el suelo. Se emplea el tequesquite en la colada de los lienzos, y > jaboneros lo usan como alcalino para saponificacio'n de las grasas. > > From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Tue May 13 02:41:35 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:41:35 -0500 Subject: word for _plan_ or _project_ Message-ID: I've looked around and in my printed books (not very many yet) but i can't find the nahuatl word for plan or project. Can someone help me with that? Thanks in advance! From macuil2 at msn.com Tue May 13 18:31:13 2003 From: macuil2 at msn.com (Raul macuil martinez) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:31:13 +0200 Subject: muchas gracias por la suscripción Message-ID: Gracias, ya que por fin me he podido suscribir a su tan importantisima lista. ya que para mi es de mucha utilidad. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From jmchavar at itesm.mx Wed May 14 01:34:50 2003 From: jmchavar at itesm.mx (jmchavar at itesm.mx) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:34:50 -0500 Subject: tequixquitl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In Mexico City markets it's also sold tequesquite; it's like salt and it's used for making tamales, instead of salt. >-- Mensaje Original -- >Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 09:58:07 -0500 >Subject: Re: tequixquitl >Cc: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu >To: "r. joe campbell" >From: idiez at mac.com > > >Joe, > I talked to my sister-in-law about tequesquite. She says when she was >little, >and still living on the ranch (El Tepetate, Zacatecas), her mother >would buy >tequesquite, in the form of granules, like table salt. It was only used >as a meat >tenderizer. For example, if they were boiling a chicken, and the meat >was very >tough, they would put tequesquite in the water. You can still buy it >here in Zacatecas. > I'm also stumped with how "quixtia" gets nominalized in this word, if >indeed this >is the correct root. Nominalization including the preterite suffix >"-qui", however, is common in >Huastecan Nahuatl. For example, "nitlamachtia" > "nitlamachtihqui" > >"nitlamachtihquetl". >tequixqui >John > >John Sullivan, Ph.D. >Centro de Estudios Prospectivos >Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas >Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. >Francisco García Salinas 604 >Colonia CNOP >Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 >México >+52 (492) 768-6048 >idiez at mac.com >www.idiez.org.mx >On Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 05:13 PM, r. joe campbell wrote: > >> Note the following sentence quoted from Sahagun's _Psalmodia >> Christiana_, >> edited by Arthur Anderson (p. 74): >> >> Ic oitlacauh in cemanaoatl, in tlalticpactli, ca **otequixquiquiz**, >> otetzacat, aocmo vel muchiua in *tonacauitl*, aocmo no qualli in >> itlaaquillo. >> >> Translation given: Thus the world, the earth, was corrupted; for >> niter >> spread; [the soil] grew sterile. No longer could our foodstuffs be >> produced; likewise no longer were their fruits good. >> >> I have a question and a comment: >> >> 1) first, the comment: on checking the facsimile of the Psalmodia, I >> found that the modern book contains a typographical error; the word is >> "tonacaiutl", not "tonacauitl". Further, the 'our' in the English >> '...our >> foodstuffs...' translation is probably related to the initial "to-", >> based >> on the assumption that it is a first person plural possessive. But >> with >> the correct spelling -- and regularized to "tonacayotl" -- it is >> obvious >> that it involves the nominalization of "to:na" embedded in "-yotl". >> And the absolutive ending made the possessive interpretation impossible >> anyway. >> >> 2) second, the question: I assume that "otequixquiquiz" is the >> preterit >> of "tequixquiquiza", with the noun "tequixquitl" embedded in the verb >> "quiza". I had assumed that the Spanish borrowing "tequexquite" was a >> widely used vocabulary item in Mexican Spanish, but I have just >> multiple >> evidence to the contrary. >> >> Can someone enlighten me on this issue? >> >> As an additional bonus, I would like some helpful comment on the >> morphological composition of the original Nahuatl noun "tequixquitl". >> --My dubits are concerned with whether "-quixtia" ever nominalizes like >> this. >> >> Tlazohcamatihtzin, >> >> Joe >> >> p.s. Note -- Dr. Cecilio A. Robelo, _Diccionario de Aztequismos: o sea >> jardin de las raices aztecas, no date, Mexico, DF >> >> p. 262: tequesquite. -- (te-quix=quitl: tetl, piedra; quixquitl, >> brotante. eflorescente; derivado de quiza, salir espontaneamente: >> "Piedra que sale por si' sola, eflorescente"). Eflorescencias salinas >> naturales, formadas de sesquicarbonato de soda y de cloruro de sodio. >> >> [footnote to above] El tequesquite, del que haci'an mucho useo los >> mexicanos, tiene hoy todavi'a muchos uusos en la industria y en la >> cocina. >> Hay de cuatro clases: espumilla, confitillo, cascarilla y polvillo. >> Las dos primeras especies, que son las mejores, se forman de la agua >> detenida en pequen~os pozos cuando baja o refluye la laguna de Texcoco. >> Cuando se avapora el li'quido bajo la influencia de los rayos solares, >> queda un sedimento confusamente cristalizado. Las otras dos especies, > >> que >> son menos estimadas, son las eflorescencias producidas espontaneamente > >> en >> el suelo. Se emplea el tequesquite en la colada de los lienzos, y >> jaboneros lo usan como alcalino para saponificacio'n de las grasas. >> >> > > From mdmorris at indiana.edu Sat May 17 00:41:50 2003 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (mdmorris at indiana.edu) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 19:41:50 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: tequixquitl Message-ID: Listos, I initially intended to send the message below to the list at large, and am following through on that idea now because I am still ignorant as to whether Catholic doctrine has something that might compare to "tlateochihualatl" in its conception of purgatory. Would this be the sulphuric tequixquitl brimstone, or something else? Thanks, Mark Morris From: To: "r. joe campbell" Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 23:01:42 -0500 I hate to bardge in on this interesting question of how tequixquitl forms from quiza -- a question to which I have found nothing to add except to point out that some writers in colonial Tlaxcala consistently write "how much" quexquich as quixquich, suggesting perhaps another consonantal nominalization of a preterite quiza ?? However, I have my own worries here concerning not merely salinous salts but verily brimstone and hellfire. My question about the following passage beyond "What hell is he talking about?" is "Which catechism is he working from?"--as in the metaphysical point he is trying to get across is opaque to me, the terms don't combine and I don't know if that is for a lack of education on my part or an excess of pulque on his. Any theological help would be welcome. Divided in three parts the text I'm worrying about reads: Warm up: San nohiqui yca yn Pasql melchor yca ynicausa amo nictlatlanitica yn procurador ypa’pa huel embustero Target Passage: sannohiqui se noAmah onimitzmotitlanili hasta axcan amo otinechmocuepilia ypanpa yzquipan itlatitlani amo mitzmaxilia quenin omopalehuisquia se anima, purgatorio yca tlatlatlahtilistli yhuan tlateochihualatl Round off: matinechhualmonahuatilis mitz motlacuilhuia ynaq Cmc mitzmotlaçohtilia Tlazohcamati, tochan Bloomington, Mark From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Sat May 17 05:13:40 2003 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 06:13:40 +0100 Subject: High-order character mode incompatibility In-Reply-To: <200305170041.TAA00216@iupui.edu> Message-ID: On 16 May 2003, at 19:41, mdmorris at indiana.edu wrote (Re: Fwd: Re: tequixquitl):- > Listos, ... > Warm up: San nohiqui yca yn Pasql melchor yca ynicausa amo > nictlatlanitica yn procurador ypa’pa huel embustero Unfortunately, my Pegasus emailer displays the word after "procurador" as:- y p a a-circumflex eurosymbol trademarksymbol p a and the last word in this extract:- > Round off: matinechhualmonahuatilis mitz motlacuilhuia ynaq Cmc > mitzmotlaçohtilia as:- m i t z m o t l a A-tilde paragraphsymbol o h t i l i a Other language-related email groups that I am in, have also reported this sort of corruption in transit of accented letters and special characters, i.e. of any character whose internal code number is more than 127. These are called "high-order characters". Citlalyani. From mdmorris at indiana.edu Sat May 17 17:40:00 2003 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (mdmorris at indiana.edu) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 12:40:00 -0500 Subject: Tlateochihualatl Message-ID: To cast my net more broadly on this issue of purgatory, I am also sending out this exchange between Sergio Romero and myself on the letter that cites tlateochihualatl. Thanks, Mark Morris Sergio, Thanks a lot for your reading. The text is a brief letter from the ex-governor of Tlaxcala Pascual Antonio Moreno to a younger colleague Juan Nicolas Jacinto Flores who he had installed as the cabildo's interpreter while in office. Now, Moreno is facing a number of problems and is being attacked on a number of fronts by his former colleagues in the cabildo. He is miffed at Flores' for his indifference and has urged him to remain loyal, on one occasion comparing Flores to Nicodemus and on another frankly reminding him to "remember who made you the interpreter." I transcribed this letter from the Tlaxcala State Archives some time ago from a box of Nahuatl documents that had been set apart under the administration of Mercedes Meade Angulo and that now the current administration just doesn't know where they might be. Without a signature and not in Moreno's hand, I didn't know how the letter fit into this story until I connected it to the lawsuit over water rights to the Zahuapan river between the cabildo and the Santa Martha hacienda on one side and Moreno's home community of Panotlan on the other wherein the cabildo quit the community of its access to the water and then ran out the three judicial rebellions over 14-16 months. I like your resolution of "itlatitlani" as "nitlatitlani" and I think I will adopt it, considering that the final "n" of yzquipan could easily have been intended as the initial consonant of titlani. I am not sure about reading tlatlatlahtilistli as burning incense, and I wonder if you could cite its association or leaning toward that type of incineration--I am only familiar with it as a verb used to mean light a fire. And with tlateochihualatl, I am still uncertain whether he is talking about holy or unholy water, since tlateo was used by the friars to denote idolatry, but the whole point with these texts is seeing their own local Mesoamerican interpretations of colonial ideology. A friend mentioned to me yesterday he thought there was a medieval European tradition of portraying hell as full of fire and water, but neither of us is very familiar with the tradition. In revised orthography, the letter reads Auh tlazohmahuizpilli oniquicac tlen tinechhualmonahuatilia. Cuix yotimotlatlaneli* yca yn Autos yca yn Atli. Cuix ayemo quinanquilia yn yey Rebelion oquicalaquique yn altepetlaca. Yhuan yca yn Santiago Autos motepotztoca; cuix ayemo ohuitze yn asesoria, noso ayemo quinhuica. San noyuhqui yca yn Pascual Melchor, yca yn icausa amonictlatlanitica yn procurador ypanpa huel embustero. San noyuhqui se noAmah onimitzmotitlanili hasta axcan amo otinechmocuepilia ypanpa yzquipan (n)ititlani* amo mitzmaxilia quenin omopalehuisquia se anima, purgatorio yca tlatlatlahtilistli yhuan tlateochihualatl. Matinechhualmonahuatilis mitzmotlacuilhuia yn aquin cemicac mitzmotlazohtilia * marked notes below Beloved esteemed noble, I heard what you've come informing me. Perhaps we will have justice with the Autos related to the Water. Perhaps they will no longer answer the third Rebellion that the townspeople filed. And, regarding the Autos that are to be pursued in the case of Santiago; perhaps the counsel will no longer come, maybe they won't bring them. Likewise, in the case of Pascual Melchor, I am not going to be asking the procurador about his case because he (the procurador)is a big liar. Likewise, there is one letter that I sent you that you still to today haven't answered, because as many times as I send the message* it doesn't reach you how there will be help for one soul in purgatory with fire and water. May you inform me. He writes you he who will always love you. I would appreciate any further comments on this brief and puzzling letter and any ideas about its imagery and conception of purgatory would be very welcome. Thanks, Mark *(perhaps should be read as "nehuili" which this crowd used when they received judicial dispatches) * However, if we keep the literal transcription, it becomes "his message," given that titlani was their noun for message. Messenger was (mo,no,amo)titlantzin. "Teochihualatl" is simply holy water. > > Sannohiqui yca yn Pasql melchor, yca yn icausa > Likewise, because Pascual Melchor, because of him (his cause) > > amo nictlatlanitica yn procurador ypa’pa huel embustero > I am not asking the procurador because he is a deceiver. > > sannohiqui se noAmah onimitzmotitlanili hasta axcan > Likewise, a letter I sent you, as of today > > amo otinechmocuepilia ypanpa yzquipan (n)itlatitlani amo mitzmaxilia > you have not answered, because everytime I send you something it does not > reach you. > > quenin omopalehuisquia se anima, purgatorio yca tlatlatlahtilistli > yhuan tlateochihualatl? > How would a soul in Purgatory help itself with (incense) burning and holy > water? > > Again, I would love to see know what the rest of the document says. What kind > of text is it? > > Good luck! > > Sergio Romero > > > > > Round off: matinechhualmonahuatilis mitz motlacuilhuia ynaq Cmc > > mitzmotlaçohtilia > > > > Tlazohcamati, tochan Bloomington, > > Mark > > > > > > From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Fri May 23 13:45:34 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:45:34 -0500 Subject: Pregunta.... Message-ID: From: "Raul macuil martinez" To: owner-nahuat-l at cda.mrs.umn.edu Subject: Pregunta..... Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:35:02 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: Saludos, la pregunta es la siguiente, tengo un documento en náhuatl del siglo XVI, es una obra de teatro en 12 fojas, la cuestión es: 1) Hasta que siglo se dejaron de utilizar en la manuscritos coloniales, dos tintas?, es decir en el drama aparecen la tinta roja, que es utilizada para marcar las acciones de los actores y para los pequeños canticos en latín. Y la tinta negra, que es utilizada para todos los dialogos de los actores. 2) Para poder presisar la temporalidad de algún manuscrito, lo que se ve el tipo de letra en que esta escrito, pero tambíen nos fijamos en la ortografía, mi pregunta es la siguiente: Para finales del Siglo XVI, aparecen los primeros prestamos del español al náhuatl, hasta que año se empezo a sustituir la letra "Z" por la "S"?. Hasta que siglo se dejo de ocupar el acento circunflejo "^" Raul macuil martinez From mdmorris at indiana.edu Sat May 24 00:41:53 2003 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 19:41:53 -0500 Subject: Owl Legends Message-ID: Please excuse this general Mesoamerican culture question, but I am hoping that somebody can save me a few hours of book leafing. Radio Universidad in Tlaxcala does bi-weekly broadcasts on History and Culture, some of it more or less based in historical and archeaological literature and some of it based in oral legend. On March 8, the program related the story of a Maya prince who was transformed into the owl by the sun for his persisted effort to spear the sun with his atlatl. In briefly trying to look up this legend in the library , I haven't been able to find anything like it. Is anyone familiar with this legend and could someone point me to a written account of it? Thanks, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From campbel at indiana.edu Sat May 10 22:13:44 2003 From: campbel at indiana.edu (r. joe campbell) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 17:13:44 -0500 Subject: tequixquitl Message-ID: Note the following sentence quoted from Sahagun's _Psalmodia Christiana_, edited by Arthur Anderson (p. 74): Ic oitlacauh in cemanaoatl, in tlalticpactli, ca **otequixquiquiz**, otetzacat, aocmo vel muchiua in *tonacauitl*, aocmo no qualli in itlaaquillo. Translation given: Thus the world, the earth, was corrupted; for niter spread; [the soil] grew sterile. No longer could our foodstuffs be produced; likewise no longer were their fruits good. I have a question and a comment: 1) first, the comment: on checking the facsimile of the Psalmodia, I found that the modern book contains a typographical error; the word is "tonacaiutl", not "tonacauitl". Further, the 'our' in the English '...our foodstuffs...' translation is probably related to the initial "to-", based on the assumption that it is a first person plural possessive. But with the correct spelling -- and regularized to "tonacayotl" -- it is obvious that it involves the nominalization of "to:na" embedded in "-yotl". And the absolutive ending made the possessive interpretation impossible anyway. 2) second, the question: I assume that "otequixquiquiz" is the preterit of "tequixquiquiza", with the noun "tequixquitl" embedded in the verb "quiza". I had assumed that the Spanish borrowing "tequexquite" was a widely used vocabulary item in Mexican Spanish, but I have just multiple evidence to the contrary. Can someone enlighten me on this issue? As an additional bonus, I would like some helpful comment on the morphological composition of the original Nahuatl noun "tequixquitl". --My dubits are concerned with whether "-quixtia" ever nominalizes like this. Tlazohcamatihtzin, Joe p.s. Note -- Dr. Cecilio A. Robelo, _Diccionario de Aztequismos: o sea jardin de las raices aztecas, no date, Mexico, DF p. 262: tequesquite. -- (te-quix=quitl: tetl, piedra; quixquitl, brotante. eflorescente; derivado de quiza, salir espontaneamente: "Piedra que sale por si' sola, eflorescente"). Eflorescencias salinas naturales, formadas de sesquicarbonato de soda y de cloruro de sodio. [footnote to above] El tequesquite, del que haci'an mucho useo los mexicanos, tiene hoy todavi'a muchos uusos en la industria y en la cocina. Hay de cuatro clases: espumilla, confitillo, cascarilla y polvillo. Las dos primeras especies, que son las mejores, se forman de la agua detenida en pequen~os pozos cuando baja o refluye la laguna de Texcoco. Cuando se avapora el li'quido bajo la influencia de los rayos solares, queda un sedimento confusamente cristalizado. Las otras dos especies, que son menos estimadas, son las eflorescencias producidas espontaneamente en el suelo. Se emplea el tequesquite en la colada de los lienzos, y jaboneros lo usan como alcalino para saponificacio'n de las grasas. From idiez at mac.com Sun May 11 14:58:07 2003 From: idiez at mac.com (idiez at mac.com) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 09:58:07 -0500 Subject: tequixquitl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Joe, I talked to my sister-in-law about tequesquite. She says when she was little, and still living on the ranch (El Tepetate, Zacatecas), her mother would buy tequesquite, in the form of granules, like table salt. It was only used as a meat tenderizer. For example, if they were boiling a chicken, and the meat was very tough, they would put tequesquite in the water. You can still buy it here in Zacatecas. I'm also stumped with how "quixtia" gets nominalized in this word, if indeed this is the correct root. Nominalization including the preterite suffix "-qui", however, is common in Huastecan Nahuatl. For example, "nitlamachtia" > "nitlamachtihqui" > "nitlamachtihquetl". tequixqui John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco Garc?a Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 M?xico +52 (492) 768-6048 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 05:13 PM, r. joe campbell wrote: > Note the following sentence quoted from Sahagun's _Psalmodia > Christiana_, > edited by Arthur Anderson (p. 74): > > Ic oitlacauh in cemanaoatl, in tlalticpactli, ca **otequixquiquiz**, > otetzacat, aocmo vel muchiua in *tonacauitl*, aocmo no qualli in > itlaaquillo. > > Translation given: Thus the world, the earth, was corrupted; for > niter > spread; [the soil] grew sterile. No longer could our foodstuffs be > produced; likewise no longer were their fruits good. > > I have a question and a comment: > > 1) first, the comment: on checking the facsimile of the Psalmodia, I > found that the modern book contains a typographical error; the word is > "tonacaiutl", not "tonacauitl". Further, the 'our' in the English > '...our > foodstuffs...' translation is probably related to the initial "to-", > based > on the assumption that it is a first person plural possessive. But > with > the correct spelling -- and regularized to "tonacayotl" -- it is > obvious > that it involves the nominalization of "to:na" embedded in "-yotl". > And the absolutive ending made the possessive interpretation impossible > anyway. > > 2) second, the question: I assume that "otequixquiquiz" is the > preterit > of "tequixquiquiza", with the noun "tequixquitl" embedded in the verb > "quiza". I had assumed that the Spanish borrowing "tequexquite" was a > widely used vocabulary item in Mexican Spanish, but I have just > multiple > evidence to the contrary. > > Can someone enlighten me on this issue? > > As an additional bonus, I would like some helpful comment on the > morphological composition of the original Nahuatl noun "tequixquitl". > --My dubits are concerned with whether "-quixtia" ever nominalizes like > this. > > Tlazohcamatihtzin, > > Joe > > p.s. Note -- Dr. Cecilio A. Robelo, _Diccionario de Aztequismos: o sea > jardin de las raices aztecas, no date, Mexico, DF > > p. 262: tequesquite. -- (te-quix=quitl: tetl, piedra; quixquitl, > brotante. eflorescente; derivado de quiza, salir espontaneamente: > "Piedra que sale por si' sola, eflorescente"). Eflorescencias salinas > naturales, formadas de sesquicarbonato de soda y de cloruro de sodio. > > [footnote to above] El tequesquite, del que haci'an mucho useo los > mexicanos, tiene hoy todavi'a muchos uusos en la industria y en la > cocina. > Hay de cuatro clases: espumilla, confitillo, cascarilla y polvillo. > Las dos primeras especies, que son las mejores, se forman de la agua > detenida en pequen~os pozos cuando baja o refluye la laguna de Texcoco. > Cuando se avapora el li'quido bajo la influencia de los rayos solares, > queda un sedimento confusamente cristalizado. Las otras dos especies, > que > son menos estimadas, son las eflorescencias producidas espontaneamente > en > el suelo. Se emplea el tequesquite en la colada de los lienzos, y > jaboneros lo usan como alcalino para saponificacio'n de las grasas. > > From awallace at rwsoft-online.com Tue May 13 02:41:35 2003 From: awallace at rwsoft-online.com (Alexander Wallace) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:41:35 -0500 Subject: word for _plan_ or _project_ Message-ID: I've looked around and in my printed books (not very many yet) but i can't find the nahuatl word for plan or project. Can someone help me with that? Thanks in advance! From macuil2 at msn.com Tue May 13 18:31:13 2003 From: macuil2 at msn.com (Raul macuil martinez) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:31:13 +0200 Subject: muchas gracias por la suscripción Message-ID: Gracias, ya que por fin me he podido suscribir a su tan importantisima lista. ya que para mi es de mucha utilidad. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From jmchavar at itesm.mx Wed May 14 01:34:50 2003 From: jmchavar at itesm.mx (jmchavar at itesm.mx) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:34:50 -0500 Subject: tequixquitl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In Mexico City markets it's also sold tequesquite; it's like salt and it's used for making tamales, instead of salt. >-- Mensaje Original -- >Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 09:58:07 -0500 >Subject: Re: tequixquitl >Cc: nahuat-l at mrs.umn.edu >To: "r. joe campbell" >From: idiez at mac.com > > >Joe, > I talked to my sister-in-law about tequesquite. She says when she was >little, >and still living on the ranch (El Tepetate, Zacatecas), her mother >would buy >tequesquite, in the form of granules, like table salt. It was only used >as a meat >tenderizer. For example, if they were boiling a chicken, and the meat >was very >tough, they would put tequesquite in the water. You can still buy it >here in Zacatecas. > I'm also stumped with how "quixtia" gets nominalized in this word, if >indeed this >is the correct root. Nominalization including the preterite suffix >"-qui", however, is common in >Huastecan Nahuatl. For example, "nitlamachtia" > "nitlamachtihqui" > >"nitlamachtihquetl". >tequixqui >John > >John Sullivan, Ph.D. >Centro de Estudios Prospectivos >Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas >Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. >Francisco Garc?a Salinas 604 >Colonia CNOP >Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 >M?xico >+52 (492) 768-6048 >idiez at mac.com >www.idiez.org.mx >On Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 05:13 PM, r. joe campbell wrote: > >> Note the following sentence quoted from Sahagun's _Psalmodia >> Christiana_, >> edited by Arthur Anderson (p. 74): >> >> Ic oitlacauh in cemanaoatl, in tlalticpactli, ca **otequixquiquiz**, >> otetzacat, aocmo vel muchiua in *tonacauitl*, aocmo no qualli in >> itlaaquillo. >> >> Translation given: Thus the world, the earth, was corrupted; for >> niter >> spread; [the soil] grew sterile. No longer could our foodstuffs be >> produced; likewise no longer were their fruits good. >> >> I have a question and a comment: >> >> 1) first, the comment: on checking the facsimile of the Psalmodia, I >> found that the modern book contains a typographical error; the word is >> "tonacaiutl", not "tonacauitl". Further, the 'our' in the English >> '...our >> foodstuffs...' translation is probably related to the initial "to-", >> based >> on the assumption that it is a first person plural possessive. But >> with >> the correct spelling -- and regularized to "tonacayotl" -- it is >> obvious >> that it involves the nominalization of "to:na" embedded in "-yotl". >> And the absolutive ending made the possessive interpretation impossible >> anyway. >> >> 2) second, the question: I assume that "otequixquiquiz" is the >> preterit >> of "tequixquiquiza", with the noun "tequixquitl" embedded in the verb >> "quiza". I had assumed that the Spanish borrowing "tequexquite" was a >> widely used vocabulary item in Mexican Spanish, but I have just >> multiple >> evidence to the contrary. >> >> Can someone enlighten me on this issue? >> >> As an additional bonus, I would like some helpful comment on the >> morphological composition of the original Nahuatl noun "tequixquitl". >> --My dubits are concerned with whether "-quixtia" ever nominalizes like >> this. >> >> Tlazohcamatihtzin, >> >> Joe >> >> p.s. Note -- Dr. Cecilio A. Robelo, _Diccionario de Aztequismos: o sea >> jardin de las raices aztecas, no date, Mexico, DF >> >> p. 262: tequesquite. -- (te-quix=quitl: tetl, piedra; quixquitl, >> brotante. eflorescente; derivado de quiza, salir espontaneamente: >> "Piedra que sale por si' sola, eflorescente"). Eflorescencias salinas >> naturales, formadas de sesquicarbonato de soda y de cloruro de sodio. >> >> [footnote to above] El tequesquite, del que haci'an mucho useo los >> mexicanos, tiene hoy todavi'a muchos uusos en la industria y en la >> cocina. >> Hay de cuatro clases: espumilla, confitillo, cascarilla y polvillo. >> Las dos primeras especies, que son las mejores, se forman de la agua >> detenida en pequen~os pozos cuando baja o refluye la laguna de Texcoco. >> Cuando se avapora el li'quido bajo la influencia de los rayos solares, >> queda un sedimento confusamente cristalizado. Las otras dos especies, > >> que >> son menos estimadas, son las eflorescencias producidas espontaneamente > >> en >> el suelo. Se emplea el tequesquite en la colada de los lienzos, y >> jaboneros lo usan como alcalino para saponificacio'n de las grasas. >> >> > > From mdmorris at indiana.edu Sat May 17 00:41:50 2003 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (mdmorris at indiana.edu) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 19:41:50 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: tequixquitl Message-ID: Listos, I initially intended to send the message below to the list at large, and am following through on that idea now because I am still ignorant as to whether Catholic doctrine has something that might compare to "tlateochihualatl" in its conception of purgatory. Would this be the sulphuric tequixquitl brimstone, or something else? Thanks, Mark Morris From: To: "r. joe campbell" Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 23:01:42 -0500 I hate to bardge in on this interesting question of how tequixquitl forms from quiza -- a question to which I have found nothing to add except to point out that some writers in colonial Tlaxcala consistently write "how much" quexquich as quixquich, suggesting perhaps another consonantal nominalization of a preterite quiza ?? However, I have my own worries here concerning not merely salinous salts but verily brimstone and hellfire. My question about the following passage beyond "What hell is he talking about?" is "Which catechism is he working from?"--as in the metaphysical point he is trying to get across is opaque to me, the terms don't combine and I don't know if that is for a lack of education on my part or an excess of pulque on his. Any theological help would be welcome. Divided in three parts the text I'm worrying about reads: Warm up: San nohiqui yca yn Pasql melchor yca ynicausa amo nictlatlanitica yn procurador ypa???pa huel embustero Target Passage: sannohiqui se noAmah onimitzmotitlanili hasta axcan amo otinechmocuepilia ypanpa yzquipan itlatitlani amo mitzmaxilia quenin omopalehuisquia se anima, purgatorio yca tlatlatlahtilistli yhuan tlateochihualatl Round off: matinechhualmonahuatilis mitz motlacuilhuia ynaq Cmc mitzmotla??ohtilia Tlazohcamati, tochan Bloomington, Mark From anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk Sat May 17 05:13:40 2003 From: anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk (anthony.appleyard at umist.ac.uk) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 06:13:40 +0100 Subject: High-order character mode incompatibility In-Reply-To: <200305170041.TAA00216@iupui.edu> Message-ID: On 16 May 2003, at 19:41, mdmorris at indiana.edu wrote (Re: Fwd: Re: tequixquitl):- > Listos, ... > Warm up: San nohiqui yca yn Pasql melchor yca ynicausa amo > nictlatlanitica yn procurador ypa???pa huel embustero Unfortunately, my Pegasus emailer displays the word after "procurador" as:- y p a a-circumflex eurosymbol trademarksymbol p a and the last word in this extract:- > Round off: matinechhualmonahuatilis mitz motlacuilhuia ynaq Cmc > mitzmotla??ohtilia as:- m i t z m o t l a A-tilde paragraphsymbol o h t i l i a Other language-related email groups that I am in, have also reported this sort of corruption in transit of accented letters and special characters, i.e. of any character whose internal code number is more than 127. These are called "high-order characters". Citlalyani. From mdmorris at indiana.edu Sat May 17 17:40:00 2003 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (mdmorris at indiana.edu) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 12:40:00 -0500 Subject: Tlateochihualatl Message-ID: To cast my net more broadly on this issue of purgatory, I am also sending out this exchange between Sergio Romero and myself on the letter that cites tlateochihualatl. Thanks, Mark Morris Sergio, Thanks a lot for your reading. The text is a brief letter from the ex-governor of Tlaxcala Pascual Antonio Moreno to a younger colleague Juan Nicolas Jacinto Flores who he had installed as the cabildo's interpreter while in office. Now, Moreno is facing a number of problems and is being attacked on a number of fronts by his former colleagues in the cabildo. He is miffed at Flores' for his indifference and has urged him to remain loyal, on one occasion comparing Flores to Nicodemus and on another frankly reminding him to "remember who made you the interpreter." I transcribed this letter from the Tlaxcala State Archives some time ago from a box of Nahuatl documents that had been set apart under the administration of Mercedes Meade Angulo and that now the current administration just doesn't know where they might be. Without a signature and not in Moreno's hand, I didn't know how the letter fit into this story until I connected it to the lawsuit over water rights to the Zahuapan river between the cabildo and the Santa Martha hacienda on one side and Moreno's home community of Panotlan on the other wherein the cabildo quit the community of its access to the water and then ran out the three judicial rebellions over 14-16 months. I like your resolution of "itlatitlani" as "nitlatitlani" and I think I will adopt it, considering that the final "n" of yzquipan could easily have been intended as the initial consonant of titlani. I am not sure about reading tlatlatlahtilistli as burning incense, and I wonder if you could cite its association or leaning toward that type of incineration--I am only familiar with it as a verb used to mean light a fire. And with tlateochihualatl, I am still uncertain whether he is talking about holy or unholy water, since tlateo was used by the friars to denote idolatry, but the whole point with these texts is seeing their own local Mesoamerican interpretations of colonial ideology. A friend mentioned to me yesterday he thought there was a medieval European tradition of portraying hell as full of fire and water, but neither of us is very familiar with the tradition. In revised orthography, the letter reads Auh tlazohmahuizpilli oniquicac tlen tinechhualmonahuatilia. Cuix yotimotlatlaneli* yca yn Autos yca yn Atli. Cuix ayemo quinanquilia yn yey Rebelion oquicalaquique yn altepetlaca. Yhuan yca yn Santiago Autos motepotztoca; cuix ayemo ohuitze yn asesoria, noso ayemo quinhuica. San noyuhqui yca yn Pascual Melchor, yca yn icausa amonictlatlanitica yn procurador ypanpa huel embustero. San noyuhqui se noAmah onimitzmotitlanili hasta axcan amo otinechmocuepilia ypanpa yzquipan (n)ititlani* amo mitzmaxilia quenin omopalehuisquia se anima, purgatorio yca tlatlatlahtilistli yhuan tlateochihualatl. Matinechhualmonahuatilis mitzmotlacuilhuia yn aquin cemicac mitzmotlazohtilia * marked notes below Beloved esteemed noble, I heard what you've come informing me. Perhaps we will have justice with the Autos related to the Water. Perhaps they will no longer answer the third Rebellion that the townspeople filed. And, regarding the Autos that are to be pursued in the case of Santiago; perhaps the counsel will no longer come, maybe they won't bring them. Likewise, in the case of Pascual Melchor, I am not going to be asking the procurador about his case because he (the procurador)is a big liar. Likewise, there is one letter that I sent you that you still to today haven't answered, because as many times as I send the message* it doesn't reach you how there will be help for one soul in purgatory with fire and water. May you inform me. He writes you he who will always love you. I would appreciate any further comments on this brief and puzzling letter and any ideas about its imagery and conception of purgatory would be very welcome. Thanks, Mark *(perhaps should be read as "nehuili" which this crowd used when they received judicial dispatches) * However, if we keep the literal transcription, it becomes "his message," given that titlani was their noun for message. Messenger was (mo,no,amo)titlantzin. "Teochihualatl" is simply holy water. > > Sannohiqui yca yn Pasql melchor, yca yn icausa > Likewise, because Pascual Melchor, because of him (his cause) > > amo nictlatlanitica yn procurador ypa???pa huel embustero > I am not asking the procurador because he is a deceiver. > > sannohiqui se noAmah onimitzmotitlanili hasta axcan > Likewise, a letter I sent you, as of today > > amo otinechmocuepilia ypanpa yzquipan (n)itlatitlani amo mitzmaxilia > you have not answered, because everytime I send you something it does not > reach you. > > quenin omopalehuisquia se anima, purgatorio yca tlatlatlahtilistli > yhuan tlateochihualatl? > How would a soul in Purgatory help itself with (incense) burning and holy > water? > > Again, I would love to see know what the rest of the document says. What kind > of text is it? > > Good luck! > > Sergio Romero > > > > > Round off: matinechhualmonahuatilis mitz motlacuilhuia ynaq Cmc > > mitzmotla??ohtilia > > > > Tlazohcamati, tochan Bloomington, > > Mark > > > > > > From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Fri May 23 13:45:34 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:45:34 -0500 Subject: Pregunta.... Message-ID: From: "Raul macuil martinez" To: owner-nahuat-l at cda.mrs.umn.edu Subject: Pregunta..... Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:35:02 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: Saludos, la pregunta es la siguiente, tengo un documento en n?huatl del siglo XVI, es una obra de teatro en 12 fojas, la cuesti?n es: 1) Hasta que siglo se dejaron de utilizar en la manuscritos coloniales, dos tintas?, es decir en el drama aparecen la tinta roja, que es utilizada para marcar las acciones de los actores y para los peque?os canticos en lat?n. Y la tinta negra, que es utilizada para todos los dialogos de los actores. 2) Para poder presisar la temporalidad de alg?n manuscrito, lo que se ve el tipo de letra en que esta escrito, pero tamb?en nos fijamos en la ortograf?a, mi pregunta es la siguiente: Para finales del Siglo XVI, aparecen los primeros prestamos del espa?ol al n?huatl, hasta que a?o se empezo a sustituir la letra "Z" por la "S"?. Hasta que siglo se dejo de ocupar el acento circunflejo "^" Raul macuil martinez From mdmorris at indiana.edu Sat May 24 00:41:53 2003 From: mdmorris at indiana.edu (Mark David Morris) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 19:41:53 -0500 Subject: Owl Legends Message-ID: Please excuse this general Mesoamerican culture question, but I am hoping that somebody can save me a few hours of book leafing. Radio Universidad in Tlaxcala does bi-weekly broadcasts on History and Culture, some of it more or less based in historical and archeaological literature and some of it based in oral legend. On March 8, the program related the story of a Maya prince who was transformed into the owl by the sun for his persisted effort to spear the sun with his atlatl. In briefly trying to look up this legend in the library , I haven't been able to find anything like it. Is anyone familiar with this legend and could someone point me to a written account of it? Thanks, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.