From jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU Tue Nov 4 03:39:34 2003 From: jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Amith) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:39:34 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Total Immersion in San Agustin Oapan: Summer 2004 Message-ID: INTENSIVE NAHUATL IN SAN AGUSTIN OAPAN: Yale University Intensive Summer Nahuatl Institute, in collaboration with the University of Chicago, will offer an intensive immersion course that although based on modern Nahuatl from San Agustín Oapan will familiarize students with colonial and classical Nahuatl by using a wide range of texts and workbooks. Given that teaching is focused not only on developing conversational skills but on imparting an understanding and overview of the general grammatical structure of Nahuatl, students will be able to apply their knowledge to their own thematic interests in any Nahuatl dialect that they might work with (ancient or modern). An effort is made to address the specific needs of students in different disciplines (e.g., anthropology, history, linguistics) and at different levels of expertise. Graduate students, undergraduates, and independent scholars are invited to apply. Students will be able to work intensively with native speakers as part of the basic educational experience of this course and those who have previously acquired skills in Nahuatl will be given the flexibility for a greater concentration of their efforts on translation, individual projects, and direct work with native speakers. Thus although a beginning course, students with previous experience in Nahuatl are encouraged to apply. Classes are 3½ hours per day, Monday through Friday, with the instructor and native speakers. Additional intensive work or tutorials with native speakers may be arranged upon request. Students will be provided with recording and playback facilities for language laboratory work and to conduct their own research and independent study. The course meets all the requirements for FLAS fellowships. Limited possibility of FLAS assistance to graduate students outside of Yale (contact Yale Council on Latin American and Iberian Studies in the spring). Course tuition: $3,300 (application deadline is April 1, students who plan on attending but are unable to meet this deadline should contact Yale CLAIS) Room and Board: $400-500/month - To ensure housing students must send Yale Latin American Studies a non-refundable $150 deposit at time of application. The deposit will be applied towards room and board costs. Administrative Fee (payable to Yale CLAIS): $150 Travel costs and arrangements are the responsibility of the student. The Yale course will run for 8 weeks during the months of June and July. Space is limited so applicants are encouraged to apply early. Before submitting an application to Yale Summer Programs, potential students must contact Beatriz Riefkohl (beatriz.riefkohl at yale.edu) by email to arrange a phone discussion. She or the instructor (jonathan.amith at yale.edu) may also be contacted for any further information. Jonathan D. Amith Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College 300 N. Washington St. Campus Box 412 Gettysburg, PA 17325 Tel. 717/338-1255 From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Sat Nov 8 16:27:43 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 10:27:43 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Revitalizaci=F3n_de_las_lenguas_ind=EDgenas?= Message-ID: Réplicas con María Elena Villegas mevillegas at inah.gob.mx La Coordinación General de Educación Intercultural Bilingüe y la Universidad Autónoma de Querétaro convocan a todas las Instituciones de Educación Superior a participar en el: Taller Inter-universitario para la Revitalización de las lenguas indígenas, que se llevará a cabo en el Auditorio Fernando Díaz Ramírez, Centro Universitario de la Universidad Autónoma de Querétaro los días 13 y 14 de noviembre de 2003 con los siguientes objetivos: 1) Generar redes de trabajo y proyectos de investigación aplicada conjuntos entre las Instituciones de Educación Superior participantes. 2) Generar propuestas para la apertura de espacios de difusión de las lenguas y las culturas indígenas en las IES, que sea factible de poner en marcha, a corto y mediano plazo. 3) Integrar un seminario permanente que permita desarrollar estrategias pedagógicas para la enseñanza y revitalización de las lenguas indígenas. Podrán participar todos los docentes, investigadores y hablantes de lengua indígena, así como todos los profesionales que desarrollen proyectos relacionados con la revitalización lingüística de lenguas indígenas y con aspectos relevantes de la educación intercultural. Los interesados en participar en este evento deberán enviar un resumen de su currículum y un documento que sintetice (no más de cinco cuartillas), el trabajo que realiza o ha realizado y su relación con los objetivos del taller. El objetivo general de este encuentro es impulsar redes de trabajo conjunto entre las IES y al mismo tiempo propuestas viables para la generación de una educación intercultural en las Universidades. Las mesas de trabajo propuestas son las siguientes: Mesa 1 Estandarización y Modernización De Las Lenguas Indígenas. Mesa 2 Revitalización De Las Lenguas Indígenas. Mesa 3 Estrategias Pedagógicas Para La Enseñanza De las Lenguas Indígenas. Mesa 4 Cosmovisión y Filosofía Indígenas. Mesa 5 Lenguas poco estudiadas y Lenguas en peligro de extinción. PROGRAMA Jueves 13 de noviembre. 9:30 a.m. Palabras de bienvenida del lingüista Dr. Ewald Hekking Inauguración a Cargo de la Rectora de la Universidad de Querétaro. M en C. Dolores Cabrera. Palabras de la coordinadora General de Educación Intercultural Bilingüe. Mtra. Sylvia Schmelkes. 10.30 a.m. Conferencia Magistral a cargo de la Dra. Rebeca Barriga con el tema: Políticas Lingüísticas y educación intercultural. 11.30 a.m. Organización de las mesas de trabajo y traslado a los salones. 12:00 p.m. Trabajo en mesas. 14:30 p.m. Comida 16.00 p.m. Trabajo en mesas. Viernes 14 de noviembre 9:30 a.m. Conferencia Magistral a cargo del Dr. Carlos Lenkersdorf. Presentación de videos realizados por la Dra. Patricia Medina. 11:00 a.m. Mesas de trabajo (segunda fase) 14:30 p.m. Comida. 16:00 p.m. Plenaria y conclusiones. María Elena Villegas From idiez at MAC.COM Sat Nov 8 23:49:54 2003 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 17:49:54 -0600 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_Revitalizaci=F3n_de_las_lenguas_ind=EDgenas?= In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.0.20031108102633.01b62170@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Hi John, The problem is that the mevillegas address does not work. I'm going to contact the INAH on Monday to see what's going on. John Sullivan On Saturday, November 8, 2003, at 10:27 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > Réplicas con María Elena Villegas mevillegas at inah.gob.mx > > La Coordinación General de Educación Intercultural Bilingüe y la > Universidad > Autónoma de Querétaro convocan a todas las Instituciones de Educación > Superior a participar en el: Taller Inter-universitario para la > Revitalización de las lenguas indígenas, que se llevará a cabo en el > Auditorio Fernando Díaz Ramírez, Centro Universitario de la Universidad > Autónoma de Querétaro los días 13 y 14 de noviembre de 2003 con los > siguientes objetivos: > > 1) Generar redes de trabajo y proyectos de investigación aplicada > conjuntos > entre las Instituciones de Educación Superior participantes. > 2) Generar propuestas para la apertura de espacios de difusión de las > lenguas y las culturas indígenas en las IES, que sea factible de poner > en > marcha, a corto y mediano plazo. > 3) Integrar un seminario permanente que permita desarrollar estrategias > pedagógicas para la enseñanza y revitalización de las lenguas > indígenas. > > Podrán participar todos los docentes, investigadores y hablantes de > lengua > indígena, así como todos los profesionales que desarrollen proyectos > relacionados con la revitalización lingüística de lenguas indígenas y > con > aspectos relevantes de la educación intercultural. > > Los interesados en participar en este evento deberán enviar un resumen > de su > currículum y un documento que sintetice (no más de cinco cuartillas), > el > trabajo que realiza o ha realizado y su relación con los objetivos > del > taller. > > El objetivo general de este encuentro es impulsar redes de trabajo > conjunto > entre las IES y al mismo tiempo propuestas viables para la generación > de una > educación intercultural en las Universidades. Las mesas de trabajo > propuestas son las siguientes: > > Mesa 1 > Estandarización y Modernización De Las Lenguas Indígenas. > Mesa 2 > Revitalización De Las Lenguas Indígenas. > Mesa 3 > Estrategias Pedagógicas Para La Enseñanza De las Lenguas Indígenas. > Mesa 4 > Cosmovisión y Filosofía Indígenas. > Mesa 5 > Lenguas poco estudiadas y Lenguas en peligro de extinción. > > PROGRAMA > Jueves 13 de noviembre. > > 9:30 a.m. > Palabras de bienvenida del lingüista Dr. Ewald Hekking > Inauguración a Cargo de la Rectora de la Universidad de Querétaro. > M en C. Dolores Cabrera. > Palabras de la coordinadora General de Educación Intercultural > Bilingüe. > Mtra. Sylvia Schmelkes. > > 10.30 a.m. > Conferencia Magistral a cargo de la Dra. Rebeca Barriga con el tema: > Políticas Lingüísticas y educación intercultural. > 11.30 a.m. > Organización de las mesas de trabajo y traslado a los salones. > 12:00 p.m. > Trabajo en mesas. > 14:30 p.m. > Comida > 16.00 p.m. > Trabajo en mesas. > > Viernes 14 de noviembre > 9:30 a.m. > Conferencia Magistral a cargo del Dr. Carlos Lenkersdorf. > Presentación de videos realizados por la Dra. Patricia Medina. > 11:00 a.m. > Mesas de trabajo (segunda fase) > 14:30 p.m. > Comida. > 16:00 p.m. > Plenaria y conclusiones. > > > María Elena Villegas > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco García Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 México +52 (492) 768-6048 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Nov 10 21:41:16 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:41:16 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fwd:_correcci=F3n_info_Taller_en_Quer=E9taro?= Message-ID: >Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:38:57 -0600 >Subject: corrección info Taller en Querétaro >From: idiez at mac.com >To: "John F. Schwaller" >X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) > >John, > I spoke with María Elena Villegas from the Centro INAH Querétaro, > who is coordinating the Taller Inter-universitario para la Revitalización > de las Lenguas Indígenas. Evidently, there was an error in the email > contact address. The correct address is: >mevillegas.qro at inah.gob.mx >John > >John Sullivan, Ph.D. >Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua >Centro de Estudios Prospectivos >Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas >Director >Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. >Francisco García Salinas 604 >Colonia CNOP >Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 >México >+52 (492) 768-6048 >idiez at mac.com >www.idiez.org.mx From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Wed Nov 12 14:43:41 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:43:41 -0600 Subject: Fwd: INFO: Aymara-English Textbook On-line Message-ID: For your information >From: Josh Beck >Date: November 11, 2003 > >The Center for Latin American Studies >at the University of Chicago > >is pleased to present the electronic publication of > >Aymar Arux Akhamawa >Aymara Language is Like This > >By Miguel Huanca > >http://clas.uchicago.edu/publications/aymara/index.html > >Aymara is an indigenous language of the Andean region of Bolivia, Peru, >Chile and Argentina. Approximately four million people in the region >consider Aymara to be their native language, including over one-third of >the population of Bolivia, making it one of the most widely-spoken >indigenous languages in South America. For over a decade, the University of >Chicago has been the only institution to offer regular Aymara instruction, >supported with funding from US Department of Education Title VI National >Resource Center grants. Aymar Arux Akhamawa is the only English-Aymara >textbook available. This valuable resource is now made available at no cost >for self-guided language learning via the world wide web, complete with >digitally-recorded native-spoken dialogues, vocabulary supplements, >original literature, and traditional song. The on-line publication of this >text can be found on the Center's website at >http://clas.uchicago.edu/thematic/aymara. This is the second edition of the >text developed by Miguel Huanca, who has taught 26 students in Aymara at >the University of Chicago since 1994 through the biannual Aymara Summer >Intensive Institute (http://clas.uchicago.edu/thematic/aymara/). The >Summer Institute will next be offered in 2005. For more information about >Aymara instruction at the University of Chicago Center for Latin American >Studies, contact clas at uchicago.edu or (773) 702-8420. > >Josh Beck >Administrator, Academic Programs & Outreach >Center for Latin American Studies >University of Chicago >5848 South University Ave., Kelly Hall 310 >Chicago, IL 60637 >phone (773) 702-8420 >fax (773) 702-1755 >web http://clas.uchicago.edu From jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 12 22:44:45 2003 From: jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Amith) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:44:45 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl at U. Chicago 2004-05 and FLAS funding Message-ID: Dear Listeros: Please note the following addition to a previous note re: a summer Nahuatl immersion course in Oapan, Guerrero: During academic year 2004-05, Jonathan Amith will teach a year-long intensive sequence in Nahuatl at the University of Chicago. Emphasis is placed on the diversity of Nahuatl in order to prepare students for work in a wide range of contexts. Proficiency-based instruction incorporates language tapes, on-line resources, and native-speakers as guest lecturers. Sudents will be given the option of registering for beginning or intermediate level instruction. However, students interested in the intermediate level must first complete the Yale Summer Intensive Nahuatl Institute or otherwise demonstrate an intermediate level of knowledge in Nahuatl. Both the Summer Institute at Yale and the Academic Year program at University of Chicago are FLAS-eligible. The University of Chicago invites students who have or will be able to obtain an academic year FLAS for learning Nahuatl to spend the year 2004-5 at the University of Chicago. Please contact Josh Beck (jpbeck at midway.uchicago.edu) for further information. ___________________ Jonathan D. Amith Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College 300 N. Washington St. Campus Box 412 Gettysburg, PA 17325 Tel. 717/338-1255 From idiez at MAC.COM Wed Nov 19 01:49:00 2003 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:49:00 -0600 Subject: Grammar charts on the web Message-ID: Over the years, I have put together a number of intuitive grammar charts, first, in order to facilitate my own learning, then later, to help my students. I'm going to start putting these on the web in order to get feedback and so that people can use them if they find them helpful. I have started with two versions of a basic verb morpheme chart which should be helpful to people who have had an introduction to Classical Nahuatl, but waste a lot of time going back and forth between texts and grammars. Some elements are simplified. (CNBasicVerb01e.doc) is in English and its labels are traditional grammar terminology. (CNBasicVerb01ei) es also in English, but its labels are for people who have difficulty working with this terminology. The two files are meant to be printed on sheets of legal size paper. There is also a file (CNNumbers.doc) which neatly synthesizes the number system and can be printed on a letter-size piece of paper. Over time I will include more charts in both English and Spanish. The files can be downloaded at http://homepage.mac.com/idiez/FileSharing1.html (you don't have to have a Mac to access and download). Please send your comments to idiez at mac.com John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco García Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 México +52 (492) 768-6048 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM Wed Nov 19 14:40:33 2003 From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:40:33 +0100 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre Message-ID: Por favor alguien podria decirme como traducir "caballero aguila" y "caballero tigre" al Nahuatl? He buscado en el diccionario de Molina, pero no esta la palabra "caballero" y en los varios libros de historia (incluyendo Duran, Sahagun y Davies), no encuentro mencion de estos terminos en Nahuatl. Seria eventualmente correcto decir "cuauhtecuhtli" y "ocelotecuhtli" a pesar de que tecuhtli en realidad no quiera decir "caballero"? Muchas gracias. Susana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Wed Nov 19 15:43:25 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:43:25 -0500 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre In-Reply-To: <00ce01c3aeac$14e07c50$2ccd623e@mexico> Message-ID: Quoting Susana Moraleda-Dragotto : Susana: If by "caballero," you mean "man", that would be oquechtli, even tlacatl. Moteuczoma is referred to as "tlacatl Moteuczomatzin" in the Florentine Codex. However, I think that in the case of the eagle and jaguar warriors, teuctli, commonly and incorrectly written *tecuhtli, is what exactly what you are looking for. Michael McCafferty > Por favor alguien podria decirme como traducir "caballero aguila" y > "caballero tigre" al Nahuatl? He buscado en el diccionario de Molina, pero > no esta la palabra "caballero" y en los varios libros de historia > (incluyendo Duran, Sahagun y Davies), no encuentro mencion de estos terminos > en Nahuatl. > Seria eventualmente correcto decir "cuauhtecuhtli" y "ocelotecuhtli" a pesar > de que tecuhtli en realidad no quiera decir "caballero"? > > Muchas gracias. > > Susana > > > From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Wed Nov 19 16:54:31 2003 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:54:31 -0500 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre Message-ID: Susana, Supongo que esta pregunta es motivada por el uso de este termino para describir muchas figuras, esculturas, etc. que se encuentran en los museos y monumentos arqueologicos en Mexico. Entonces, la pregunta debe ser mas bien: ?cual fue el termino original que se usaba para describir estas figuras o personas? Filosoficamente, la diferencia es importante. Hay que tener en cuenta que el termino caballero tiene un sentido determinado por la cultural y la sociedad en las cuales se origino. Creo que tienes razon que el uso del termino "teuctli" seria inapropiado. Y esto demuestra justamente el problema de la traduccion que acabo de sennalar. O sea, la traduccion de "caballero" como "teuctli" es una traduccion de una traduccion justificable desde una perspective metodologica que se basa en la consecuencia entre los campos semanticos de estas palabras. Pero el solapamiento de los campos semanticos no es completo y puede resultar en errores cada vez mas serios especialmente cuando se trata de traducciones de traducciones. La razon por la cual se usa el termino caballero en este contexto es por la relacion entre "caballero" y "guerrero." Estas figuras de hombres-aguilas y hombres-tigres son representaciones de guerreros que pertenecian a ciertos grupos o clases de guerreros metaforicamente asociados con estos animales. Parece que tambien llevaban trajes de guerra que simbolizaban de alguna forma el animal. Pero no creo que se pueda aplicar el termino teuctli--por lo menos de manera general--a estos guerreros. A base de textos coloniales (historiografia/etnografia y poesia), en Nahuatl se utilizaba meramente los terminos "cuauhtli" y "ocelotl" para referirse a estas personas, y se entendia por el contexto que se referia a los guerreros en vez de los animales mismos. Galen Susana Moraleda-Dragotto wrote: > Por favor alguien podria decirme como traducir "caballero aguila" y > "caballero tigre" al Nahuatl? He buscado en el diccionario de Molina, pero > no esta la palabra "caballero" y en los varios libros de historia > (incluyendo Duran, Sahagun y Davies), no encuentro mencion de estos terminos > en Nahuatl. > Seria eventualmente correcto decir "cuauhtecuhtli" y "ocelotecuhtli" a pesar > de que tecuhtli en realidad no quiera decir "caballero"? > > Muchas gracias. > > Susana > From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Wed Nov 19 17:40:57 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:40:57 -0600 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre In-Reply-To: <1069256605.3fbb8f9ded0a3@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: At 09:43 AM 11/19/2003, you wrote: >If by "caballero," you mean "man", that would be oquechtli, even tlacatl. >Moteuczoma is referred to as "tlacatl Moteuczomatzin" in the Florentine Codex. La palabra "caballero" fue puesto por los espanoles. No creo que fue traducida del Nahuatl. Estos grupos de guerreros fueron reconocidos por los espanoles como si fueran caballeros. En general, creo que fueron denominados en Nahuatl como -tecuhtli John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Nov 19 17:46:12 2003 From: jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9?= Rabasa) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:46:12 -0800 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre In-Reply-To: <00ce01c3aeac$14e07c50$2ccd623e@mexico> Message-ID: El termino caballero es un anacronismo ya que no existian caballos antes de la invasion europea. Jose Rabasa >Por favor alguien podria decirme como traducir "caballero aguila" y >"caballero tigre" al Nahuatl? He buscado en el diccionario de Molina, pero >no esta la palabra "caballero" y en los varios libros de historia >(incluyendo Duran, Sahagun y Davies), no encuentro mencion de estos terminos >en Nahuatl. >Seria eventualmente correcto decir "cuauhtecuhtli" y "ocelotecuhtli" a pesar >de que tecuhtli en realidad no quiera decir "caballero"? > >Muchas gracias. > >Susana From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Wed Nov 19 20:05:06 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:05:06 -0600 Subject: Nahua Newsletter Message-ID: Number 36 of the Nahua Newsletter arrived in my mailbox today. The good news is that back issues are now available on the web: http://www.ipfw.edu/soca/Nahua.htm For further information write: Alan R. Sandstrom Department of Anthropology Indiana University - Purdue University Fort Wayne 2101 Coliseum Blvd. East Fort Wayne, IN 46805 Sandstro at ipfw.edu John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Wed Nov 19 20:54:57 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:54:57 -0500 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre (fwd) Message-ID: Earlier today i wrote Susana something to the effect that if by "caballero," she meant "man," that would be of course oquichtli, even tlacatl. Moteuczoma is called "tlacatl Moteuczoma" in the Florentine. And by that his subjects weren't saying just any old dude. That said, I also mentioned that in the case of the eagle and jaguar warriors, teuctli, commonly and obliquely written *tecuhtli, is probably what she is after. Michael From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Wed Nov 19 20:57:12 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:57:12 -0500 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: See: http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/search/web/cuauhtecuhtli On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Earlier today i wrote Susana something to the effect that if by > "caballero," she meant "man," that would be of course oquichtli, even > tlacatl. Moteuczoma is called "tlacatl Moteuczoma" in the Florentine. > And by that his subjects weren't saying just any old dude. > > That said, I also mentioned that in the case of the eagle and jaguar > warriors, teuctli, commonly and obliquely written *tecuhtli, is probably > what she is after. > > Michael > > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Wed Nov 19 21:01:08 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:01:08 -0500 Subject: Caballeros In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At the time of the Spanish conquest of Mexico, did the term "caballero" only refer to someone who rode a horse, or did it refer as it does in modern Spanish to a gentleman? Michael McCaballero On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, [iso-8859-1] Jos� Rabasa wrote: > El termino caballero es un anacronismo ya que no existian caballos > antes de la invasion europea. Jose Rabasa > > >Por favor alguien podria decirme como traducir "caballero aguila" y > >"caballero tigre" al Nahuatl? He buscado en el diccionario de Molina, pero > >no esta la palabra "caballero" y en los varios libros de historia > >(incluyendo Duran, Sahagun y Davies), no encuentro mencion de estos terminos > >en Nahuatl. > >Seria eventualmente correcto decir "cuauhtecuhtli" y "ocelotecuhtli" a pesar > >de que tecuhtli en realidad no quiera decir "caballero"? > > > >Muchas gracias. > > > >Susana > > > From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Wed Nov 19 21:01:08 2003 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:01:08 -0700 Subject: Reviewers sought Message-ID: I'm trying to put together a list of potential reviewers who are qualified to critique a translation of a Nahuatl text. Could any of you recommend one or more such persons? Richley Crapo From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Wed Nov 19 21:35:33 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:35:33 -0600 Subject: Caballeros In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 03:01 PM 11/19/2003, you wrote: >At the time of the Spanish conquest of Mexico, did the term "caballero" >only refer to someone who rode a horse, or did it refer as it does in >modern Spanish to a gentleman? It meant both. There is a long discourse I read from a nobleman in late 16th cen. Spain decrying the lamentable state of the Spanish nobility. He was much aghast that they rode around in carriages, and that many young gentlemen had lost the ability to ride a hose. How could they, he went on, be gentlemen (caballeros) if they no longer rode or owned a horse (caballo)? In fact in order to be a member of one of the Spanish orders of nobility, Santiago, Calatrava, and Alcantar, one had to demonstrate that he could ride a horse. Members, furthermore, were prohibited from riding in carriages, without express royal license to do so. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From micc2 at COX.NET Wed Nov 19 21:44:00 2003 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:44:00 -0800 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yo propongo que un termino correcto seria "yaoquichtli" hombre de guerra.... José Rabasa wrote: > El termino caballero es un anacronismo ya que no existian caballos > antes de la invasion europea. Jose Rabasa > >> Por favor alguien podria decirme como traducir "caballero aguila" y >> "caballero tigre" al Nahuatl? He buscado en el diccionario de Molina, >> pero >> no esta la palabra "caballero" y en los varios libros de historia >> (incluyendo Duran, Sahagun y Davies), no encuentro mencion de estos >> terminos >> en Nahuatl. >> Seria eventualmente correcto decir "cuauhtecuhtli" y "ocelotecuhtli" >> a pesar >> de que tecuhtli en realidad no quiera decir "caballero"? >> >> Muchas gracias. >> >> Susana > > From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Wed Nov 19 22:02:08 2003 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:02:08 -0500 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre (fwd) Message-ID: Hi Michael, It used to be that when you sent messages to Nahuat-l, you got a copy of your own message along with everyone else. It seems that this is no longer the case, and it kind of confused me at first, because when I first noticed it, I thought that maybe my message never went through. I did get your original response to Susana, but I didn't see it until I had already sent mine to the list. I should clarify that I am not claiming that there was no such thing as a "cuauhteuctli" but rather that this term would probably have referred to the leader of the order as opposed to Eagle warriors in general. I could be wrong about this, but in my admittedly limited experience, I have never seen the warriors from the military orders referred to in general as "cuauhteuctli" or "oceloteuctli". The websites you point do contain the terms "cuauhtecuhtli" and "ocelotecuhtli," but almost all of them are reproductions of the same poem and historical introduction that form part of a character role play game of the dungeons and dragons type, and the one or two other instances on other pages give no documentary source. Even so, the author of the role-play game, evidently a guy named Alejandro Melchor, uses the term "cuauhtecuhtli" to refer only to the leader of the military order, and the historical explanation that appears after the poem uses the term "cuacuauhtzin" to refer to the Eagle warriors in general, which is consistent with what I was saying before. In this respect, I think the guy who created this game and its characters is very well informed. In English, the name of the warriors is translated as "Eagle knight," which is consistent with the Spanish translation of "cabellero aguila". So, I would argue that the term caballero in the Spanish translation is based on the fact that this person is a warrior/knight/soldier rather than a "teuctli." And so, I would still maintain that the correct retranslation of "caballero aguila" would be merely "cuauhtli." Have I convinced you? Galen Michael Mccafferty wrote: > See: > > http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/search/web/cuauhtecuhtli > > > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > >>Earlier today i wrote Susana something to the effect that if by >>"caballero," she meant "man," that would be of course oquichtli, even >>tlacatl. Moteuczoma is called "tlacatl Moteuczoma" in the Florentine. >>And by that his subjects weren't saying just any old dude. >> >>That said, I also mentioned that in the case of the eagle and jaguar >>warriors, teuctli, commonly and obliquely written *tecuhtli, is probably >>what she is after. >> >>Michael >> >> > > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Wed Nov 19 22:32:18 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:32:18 -0500 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3FBBE860.7050606@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: Great. Thanks, Galen. On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Galen Brokaw wrote: > Hi Michael, > It used to be that when you sent messages to Nahuat-l, you got a copy of > your own message along with everyone else. It seems that this is no > longer the case, and it kind of confused me at first, because when I > first noticed it, I thought that maybe my message never went through. > I did get your original response to Susana, but I didn't see it until I > had already sent mine to the list. > I should clarify that I am not claiming that there was no such thing as > a "cuauhteuctli" but rather that this term would probably have referred > to the leader of the order as opposed to Eagle warriors in general. > I could be wrong about this, but in my admittedly limited experience, I > have never seen the warriors from the military orders referred to in > general as "cuauhteuctli" or "oceloteuctli". The websites you point do > contain the terms "cuauhtecuhtli" and "ocelotecuhtli," but almost all of > them are reproductions of the same poem and historical introduction that > form part of a character role play game of the dungeons and dragons > type, and the one or two other instances on other pages give no > documentary source. Even so, the author of the role-play game, evidently > a guy named Alejandro Melchor, uses the term "cuauhtecuhtli" to refer > only to the leader of the military order, and the historical explanation > that appears after the poem uses the term "cuacuauhtzin" to refer to the > Eagle warriors in general, which is consistent with what I was saying > before. In this respect, I think the guy who created this game and its > characters is very well informed. > In English, the name of the warriors is translated as "Eagle knight," > which is consistent with the Spanish translation of "cabellero aguila". > So, I would argue that the term caballero in the Spanish translation is > based on the fact that this person is a warrior/knight/soldier rather > than a "teuctli." And so, I would still maintain that the correct > retranslation of "caballero aguila" would be merely "cuauhtli." > Have I convinced you? > Galen > > > > > > > > Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > See: > > > > http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/search/web/cuauhtecuhtli > > > > > > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > > > > >>Earlier today i wrote Susana something to the effect that if by > >>"caballero," she meant "man," that would be of course oquichtli, even > >>tlacatl. Moteuczoma is called "tlacatl Moteuczoma" in the Florentine. > >>And by that his subjects weren't saying just any old dude. > >> > >>That said, I also mentioned that in the case of the eagle and jaguar > >>warriors, teuctli, commonly and obliquely written *tecuhtli, is probably > >>what she is after. > >> > >>Michael > >> > >> > > > > > > > From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Nov 20 01:13:55 2003 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:13:55 -0500 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre In-Reply-To: <00ce01c3aeac$14e07c50$2ccd623e@mexico> Message-ID: on 11/19/03 9:40 AM, Susana Moraleda-Dragotto at susana at DRAGOTTO.COM wrote: Por favor alguien podria decirme como traducir "caballero aguila" y "caballero tigre" al Nahuatl? He buscado en el diccionario de Molina, pero no esta la palabra "caballero" y en los varios libros de historia (incluyendo Duran, Sahagun y Davies), no encuentro mencion de estos terminos en Nahuatl. Seria eventualmente correcto decir "cuauhtecuhtli" y "ocelotecuhtli" a pesar de que tecuhtli en realidad no quiera decir "caballero"? Muchas gracias. Susana Nice to hear from you Susana! Thanks to Joe's helpful concordance from the Florentine Codex, it seems clear that eagle warriors and jaguar warriors were often referred to metaphorically simply as eagles and jaguars. Granted that the word ocelotl refers in English to a much smaller feline than the jaguar, but in Nahuatl, ocelotl is the big cat, and the smaller one is sometimes referenced with one or another of the diminutive suffixes (-tzin, -ton, maybe even -pil). One isn't likely to find "caballero" in a bilingual Spanish/Nahuatl dictionary, considering the literal meaning of caballero. Mesoamerican fighters were of necessity foot warriors. Yaotl, 'enemy,' is often to be found in descriptions of battle. Teuctli refers only to lords. Frances -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM Thu Nov 20 11:16:01 2003 From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:16:01 +0100 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre Message-ID: Re: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre Muchas gracias a todos por la discusion de la traduccion de los terminos en objeto. No cabe duda de que el vocablo "caballero" que se usa hoy en dia en español para referirse a estos GUERREROS del pasado, se refiere a su acepcion como "lord", y no a la que se refiere a "quien monta un caballo".... pero, me pregunto yo, cual era el termino que usaban los Aztecas para referirse a ellos? He seguido buscando en otros libros bajo capitulos que narran de la organizacion militar, pero nada. Asi es de que a un cierto punto pense que tal vez utilizaban el termino equivalente a GUERRERO, pero tambien en este caso, estoy confundida. La palabra "yaotl" significa "enemigo" segun Molina (y segun mi insigne y querida maestra Frances Karttunen a quien mando un calido saludo).... de acuerdo. pero.... un enemigo no siempre es un guerrero, asi como un guerrero no es siempre un enemigo......(?). Molina, bajo "guerreador" dice "teyaochiuani, teicalini, yaoc tlayecoani, teyaotlani" Mientras que en mi humilde opinion, teyaochiuani y teyaotlani definen muy claramente "quien hace la guerra", los otros dos terminos no los entiendo bien (teicalini, yaoc tlayecoani".. Entonces, cuauhteyaochihuani o cuauhteyaotlani? (con o sin "te"?) En fin, aparte de todo este analisis de significados, que es extremadamente interesante, yo quisiera saber con que vocablos se referian los Aztecas a esta famosa e importante categoria militar. Me parece increible que no se pueda encontrar un texto Nahuatl donde se especifique. Gracias, Susana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Nov 20 14:22:56 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:22:56 -0600 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 07:13 PM 11/19/2003, you wrote: >Thanks to Joe's helpful concordance from the Florentine Codex, it seems >clear that eagle warriors and jaguar warriors were often referred to >metaphorically simply as eagles and jaguars. Joe was kind enough to send me the complete concordance relating to ocelots and eagles. It is a fairly large file, and so I did not post it to the entire list. If you would like a copy, please request it off-line [that is DO NOT hit the Reply button, send me a private message, please] J. F. Schwaller List owner John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Nov 20 14:13:34 2003 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:13:34 -0500 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre In-Reply-To: <00b001c3af57$b75ce580$41d4623e@mexico> Message-ID: Ross Hassig wrote a book, now out of print, entitled Aztec Warfare. It is Vol. 1888 of the Civilization of the American Indian Series. Hassig also wrote Mexico and the Spanish Conquest, published in 1995. More information about both of these is available in the amazon.com listings. On p. 229 of Aztecs (Cambridge University Press, 1991) Inga Clendinnen vividly decribes how the eagle and jaguar warriors became imbued with the characteristics of the animals they represented, and she goes on to talk about their costumes in considerable detail. In fact, Clendinnen has much to say about Aztec warfare throughout her book. Her index entry under "warriors" goes on and on, but she is not a source for Nahuatl-language terminology. Towns subject to the Aztec Triple Alliance were required to provide costumes as part of their tribute, and they are beautifully illustrated in facsimiles of the Codex Mendoza, which is essentially an illustrated tax list. From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Thu Nov 20 14:29:08 2003 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:29:08 -0500 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre Message-ID: > No cabe duda de que el vocablo "caballero" que se usa hoy en dia en > español para referirse a estos GUERREROS del pasado, se refiere a su > acepcion como "lord", y no a la que se refiere a "quien monta un > caballo".... > pero, me pregunto yo, cual era el termino que usaban los Aztecas para > referirse a ellos? Susana, Esto es justamente lo que estaba diciendo que no es el caso. Primero, el punto que yo trate de sennalar y que Fran confirmo a base del Codice florentino es que las palabras en Nahuatl que se han traducido como "caballero aguila" y "caballero ocelotl" son meramente "cuauhtli" y "ocelotl" respectivamente. La acepcion "lord" del termino caballero es justamente parte del campo semantico de ese termino que no comparte con el campo semantico del significante "cuauhtli," el cual era la palabra que se utilizaba para referirse a un guerrero que pertenecia a la orden militar asociada metaforicamente con el simbolo del aguila. La inclinacion de retraducir "caballero aguila" como "cuauhteuctli" demuestra uno de los problemas de la traduccion y la retraduccion. La traduccion original de "cuauhtli" como "caballero aguila" responde a la necesidad de indicar que el termino indica un guerrero porque en espannol "aguila" no se asocia metaforicamente con "guerrero." Pero el uso del termino "caballero" invoca muchas cosas que no tenian nada que ver con el guerrero conocido como "cuauhtli." Entonces, la acepcion "lord" del termino "caballero" no es lo que permitio la relacion analogica necesaria para la traduccion de "cuauhtli" como "caballero aguila." Yo diria que la acepcion del termino "caballero" que establecio la necesaria relacion analogica era "guerrero." La traduccion inevitablement resulta especificando un campo semantico diferente al del termino traducido del Nahuatl. La retraducion de "caballero aguila" como "cuauhteuctli" incorpora parte del campo semantico del termino "caballero" determinada por la cultura espannola que no es analoga a la nocion original de "cuauhtli." > En fin, aparte de todo este analisis de significados, que es > extremadamente interesante, yo quisiera saber con que vocablos se > referian los Aztecas a esta famosa e importante categoria militar. Me > parece increible que no se pueda encontrar un texto Nahuatl donde se > especifique. Pero el Codice florentino sI especifica las palabras que se utlizaban para referirse a estos guerreros y esas palabras son, como he explicado, "cuauhtli" y "ocelotl." Aunque la asociacion entre "cuauhtli" y "caballero aguila" se establecio por medio de la nocion "guerrero," esto no quiere decir que sea necesario especificar que "cuauhtli" era guerrero. Claro, habia terminos generales que se podian utilizar para referirse a guerreros en un sentido generico, pero los terminos "caballero aguila" y "caballero tigre" son "traducciones" de "cuauhtli" y "ocelotl". Y el contexto del uso indicaba que estas palabras se referian a guerreros pertenecientes a ordenes militares. O sea, no era necesario especificar explicitamente con otro termino linguistico que eran guerreros; "cuauhtli" y "ocelotl" ya contienen dentro de sus campos semanticos por extension metaforica el significante o referente "guerrero". Galen From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Nov 20 16:17:21 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:17:21 -0600 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre In-Reply-To: <00b001c3af57$b75ce580$41d4623e@mexico> Message-ID: At 05:16 AM 11/20/2003, Susana Moraleda-Dragotto wrote: >quisiera saber con que vocablos se referian los Aztecas a esta famosa e >importante categoria militar. Para mi, no cabe duda que en las fuentes que tradicionalmente utilizamos, como el Codice Florentino, usaba la palabra -teuctli- gneralmente en su forma -tecuhtli- Claro no fueron principes ni gobernadores, que es uno de los significativos que tenemos para -teuctli-, pero el significativo Nahua, al parecer era mas amplio para encubrir a estos valientes. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri Nov 21 13:34:32 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:34:32 -0500 Subject: Tlein ticmati? Message-ID: In the Florentine Codex, Book line 91, where there is a recounting of the exchange of gifts that occurred at the first meeting of the Aztecs and the Spanish, we find: "quinhualcuepcayotilique," which D. and A. translated "[the Spaniards] gave them gifts in return". |quin-hual-cuepcayotl-causative-benefactive-plural|. Can someone explain what is going on here? Why the benefactive? Couldn't one have simply said *quinhualcuepcayotique? tlaxtlahui, Michael From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri Nov 21 15:27:49 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:27:49 -0500 Subject: Tlein ticmati? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Let me restate my original query: In the Florentine Codex, Book 12, page 6, fourth paragraph from the top there is a recounting of the exchange of gifts that occurred at the first meeting of the Aztecs and the Spanish: It reads: "quinhualcuepcayotilique," which D. and A. translated "[the Spaniards] gave them gifts in return". quin-hual-cuepcayotia-lia Can someone explain why the benefactive is used here? Couldn't one have simply said *quinhualcuepcayotique? *Tlatlaxtlahui* , Michael From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Fri Nov 21 16:10:43 2003 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 11:10:43 -0500 Subject: Tlein ticmati? Message-ID: Michael, I see the importance of your clarification. If the "ti" were interpreted as causative, then it wouldn't make sense. If it were causitive, one would expect that what we are dealing with really isn't a benefactive form but rather an honorific consisting of the causative in conjunction with the benefactive, in which case one would expect to find the reflexive "mo" at the beginning of the word. And actually that would be possible in that the "mo" might be disguised in the "quin-hual" really being "quin-mo-hual". Of course, if that were the case, the verb would have to be "cuepcayo." But, as your clarification indicates, this isn't a verb; its a noun (actually a verb which has been converted into a noun) with the suffix "tia" which turns it back into a transitive verb. It seems to me that the benefactive is appropriate in this context, no? So, maybe one has a choice here of using the benefactive or not. Moreover, this sentence inherently has both a specific direct object and a specific indirect object but only one of these objects may appear because of the rule that prevents a construction like "quimquimcuepcayotilique." So, maybe they use the benfactive to emphasize the presence of the indirect object which doesn't appear explicitly. I wonder if this is a general practice: using the benefactive form precisely because one is prevented from explicitly expressing the indirect object. Galen Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Let me restate my original query: > > > > In the Florentine Codex, Book 12, page 6, fourth paragraph from the top > there is a recounting of the exchange of gifts that occurred at the first meeting of the Aztecs and the > Spanish: > > It reads: "quinhualcuepcayotilique," which D. and A. translated "[the > Spaniards] gave them gifts in return". > > quin-hual-cuepcayotia-lia > > Can someone explain why the benefactive is used here? Couldn't > one have simply said *quinhualcuepcayotique? > > *Tlatlaxtlahui* > , > Michael > From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Fri Nov 21 18:18:02 2003 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 13:18:02 -0500 Subject: Tlein ticmati? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: M2 wrote: > > "quinhualcuepcayotilique," which D. and A. translated "[the Spaniards] > gave them gifts in return". > > Michael, Galen, and Mochintin: My suggested answer is contained in the comment on #91 below: FC, Book 12, p. 6: 90. in izquitlamantli in in quimonmacaque, all these various things they presented to [the spaniards. *** the singular noun "izquitlamantli" is represented in the verb by "qui-", which is 'covered up' by "quim-". 91. quinhualcuepcayotilique, [these] gave them gifts in return. *** Parallel to 90 and 92, "quinhualcuepcayotilique" has an implicit "qui-" (direct object), which is 'covered up' by "quim-". "quin-" is therefore the indirect object, marked again by the benefactive "li[a]". 92. quinhualmacaque cozcatl, xoxoctic, coztic: iuhquinma in apozonalnenequi: they offered them green and yellow necklaces which resembled amber. *** the singular noun "cozcatl" is represented in the verb by "qui-", which is 'covered up' by "quim-". ================================= My Detour in Analysis: As Michael and Galen have pointed out, the "-ti[a?]" must surely be a "verber" (one of the verb formatives that Nahuatl includes in its toolbox to make verbs from nouns). I sat down to ponder the problem last night and looked at some old notes, which turned out to be a mistake, since I had made them many layers of innocence ago. |8-) Nahuatl has two "-ti" verb formatives: 1 -ti 'be or become like the entity referred to by the base noun' acah someone nacahti I become someone ahtleh nothing ahtlehtiz he will become nothing calpixqui steward ticalpixcatiz you will become a steward (with the regular appearance of "-ca" in 'protected position' instead of '-qui') 2 -ti 'have the entity referred to by the base noun' a:pi:ztli hunger na:pi:zti I behave like a glutton; I eat without filling up caquiztli sound caquiztiz it will have a sound; it will be heard (I'll refer to these "verbers" as "ti-1" and "ti-2") "ti-1" normally takes a "-lia" causative and "ti-2" normally takes a "-a" causative *ti-1* a:tl water nica:tilia I melt it; I cause it to become like water ahtleh nothing ninahtlehtilia I humiliate myself centetl one niccentetilia I join it (with something else), I unite it; I cause it to become one *ti-2* a:huitl aunt nimitza:huitia I provide you with an aunt a:xi:cyo:tl whirlpool (water-navelness) ma:xi:cyo:tia it develops whirlpools mecatl rope momecatia he provides himself with a concubine I considered the possibility that in the word "quinhualcuepcayotilihque", the sequence "tili" represented . Since "-cuepcayo:tl" means something like "returned thing" (abstract), that would mean that 'they' caused 'them' ("quin-") to become a returned thing. Obviously, the solution suggested in #91 above (i.e., that "-tili" represents ) is semantically superior (they provided them with a returned thing) and the form problem is resolved by the principle in Nahuatl grammar that forbids the overt representation of more than one specific projective object prefixes (e.g., there are no sequences of "qui-" and "quim-"). Saludos, Joe p.s. Some data follows.... ================================= Molinas and the FC: The following data is undoubtedly messy and still full of errors and things still unthought-out, but it tends to corroborate the pattern of one-argument-verbs occurring *without* the benefactive "-li[a]" and two-argument-verbs occurring *with* the benefactive suffix. cuecuepcayotililo , ne-. there is continual reciprocating. . FC cuepcayotia , qui-. he takes reprisal. . FC cuepcayotia , quihual-. they give it in return. . FC cuepcayotia =nic. embiar otra cosa en retorno. . 55m-7 cuepcayotia =nitla. embiar otra cosa en retorno. . 55m-7 cuepcayotia =nitla=onitlacuepcayoti. dar algo en retorno, o pagar enla misma moneda. . 71m2-5 cuepcayotilia , nechtla-. he repays me. . FC cuepcayotilia =nitetla. recompenssar; vengarse; daren retorno cosas buenas o malas. . 55m-17 cuepcayotilia =nitetla=onitetlacuepcayotili. dar algo enretorno, o vengarse dela injuria; ovengarse dela injuria recebida. . 71m2-5 cuepcayotiliani =tetla. vengador; vengatiuo. . 55m-19 cuepcayotililiztli =tetla. recompenssacion; vengan�a; venganza; o retorno del bien; o mal que a otro se hizo; o recompenssa. . 55m-17 cuepcayotilique , quinhual-. they gave them gifts in return. . FC cuepcayotiliztli =tetla. retorno de presente. . 55m-17 cuepcayotiliztli =tla. retorno assi. &c; tornaboda. . 71m2-20 cuepcayotiloni =tla. embiada cosa assi; retorno assi. &c. . 55m-7 From ksmith at UMAIL.UCSB.EDU Sun Nov 23 12:58:59 2003 From: ksmith at UMAIL.UCSB.EDU (Kevin Smith) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 04:58:59 -0800 Subject: Query: cuilote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nahuatlatos, A colleague of mine in transcribing an interview he did recently with a 100-year-old man in Ozumba. At one point, his informant states that he "built a house of zacate and cuilote." Can anyone shed light on either the materials or the implied method of construction? Thanks much, Kevin If work is such a good thing, how come the rich haven't grabbed it all for themselves? -- Haitian proverb Kevin Paul Smith Ph.D. Student Department of History University of California Santa Barbara From Huehueteot at AOL.COM Sun Nov 23 14:08:23 2003 From: Huehueteot at AOL.COM (Huehueteot at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 09:08:23 EST Subject: Query: cuilote Message-ID: Paul, Zacate is usually translated as grass when it occurs in Spanish. It is borrowed from Nahuatl for the same substance. What language was the interview in? Cuilote I am not sure of, perhaps others on this list will be able to answer since they are more current both with Nahuatl and with the area but it should be some sort of stiffer materiel such as reeds or tree branches or what would be called "wattle." Your informant is probably describing the process of building a wattle and daub house or thatching a roof. Cheers, Sam Ball -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Sun Nov 23 18:10:14 2003 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 13:10:14 -0500 Subject: Query: cuilote In-Reply-To: <1069592339.3fc0af139ee57@webaccess.umail.ucsb.edu> Message-ID: > An interview he did recently with a > 100-year-old man in Ozumba. At one point, his informant states that he "built > a > house of zacate and cuilote." Zacate is the hispanization of zacatl 'grass/hay.' I wonder if this would represent zacatl and cuitlatl, i.e., a house built of adobe blocks containing hay and dung. From trejovm at WHITMAN.EDU Sun Nov 23 19:14:45 2003 From: trejovm at WHITMAN.EDU (trejovm at WHITMAN.EDU) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:14:45 -0800 Subject: ARTISTIC Iformation. Message-ID: hello to all of you. my name is Victor , I love reading to your e-mails and comments of all this treasure information that all of you provide, I thick this is fantastic and helpfully to my work. this brings me to the question and information i need from you, I'm an artist (sculptor ) and for the past 16 years of experience I've helped numerous artist to reproduce their work, lots of it just fantastic and well elaborrating work but most of it not necesary good, by chance I gain tremenduos amount of talent and many ideas. I'm originally from mexico city and now I live in walla walla wa. extreme change I know. As you may Know now how passionate and proud many of us natives are about our languages and to me personally has become even more romantic and magical may be because I miss being at home ,unfortunately I'm and artist not a linguist, here is where you can help me to transform my pending ideas to beutifull and conceptual artwork by helping me with titles of books that you might know , of Nahuatl names, Nahuatl places, Nahuatl miths, Nahuatl poems, etc. etc. I will treasure your information, and be thankfull forever. sincerely yours. Victor trejo Quoting Huehueteot at AOL.COM: > Paul, > > Zacate is usually translated as grass when it occurs in Spanish. It is > borrowed from Nahuatl for the same substance. What language was the > interview in? > Cuilote I am not sure of, perhaps others on this list will be able to answer > since they are more current both with Nahuatl and with the area but it > should > be some sort of stiffer materiel such as reeds or tree branches or what > would > be called "wattle." Your informant is probably describing the process of > building a wattle and daub house or thatching a roof. > > Cheers, > > Sam Ball > -------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through Whitman College Webmail 3.1 From bstross at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Sun Nov 23 18:17:56 2003 From: bstross at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Brian Stross) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:17:56 -0400 Subject: Query: cuilote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> An interview he did recently with a >> 100-year-old man in Ozumba. At one point, his informant states that he "built >> a >> house of zacate and cuilote." Cuilote is a 'stick' (palo or vara) and probably comes from the similar sounding word in Nahuatl (kwilo:tl) meaning 'stick'. Such sticks are used in roofing a thatch house. From dfrye at UMICH.EDU Mon Nov 24 04:24:42 2003 From: dfrye at UMICH.EDU (Frye, David) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:24:42 -0500 Subject: Query: cuilote Message-ID: > A colleague of mine in transcribing an interview he did recently with a > 100-year-old man in Ozumba. At one point, his informant states that he "built a > house of zacate and cuilote." Can anyone shed light on either the materials or > the implied method of construction? Once more I recommend Francisco Santamaria's Diccionario de mejicanismos, which has the following on cuilote: Cuilote (?Del mex. quiyotl tallo de yerba? MOL.) m. Vara seca, más o menos guresa, que sirve para formar paredes de chozas, que luego se embarran, hacer setos, y también zarzos que en climas calientes sierven de cama. Note, Frances Karttunen's Analytical Dictionary has "cuilO-tl, stick/palo (T)." Molina has "quiyotl, talla de yerva o de verdura, &c." The latter has got to be the same as quiote, the name for the huge flowering stem of the maguey, which was used in San Luis Potosi (and probably elsewhere) for construction, and was the main framing post for jacales back when people still made them, not too long ago. The way jacales were built up in SLP was this: an A-frame was built of maguey quiotes; a roofing frame of the thinner lechuguilla quiotes was tied to the sides of the A-frame; and maguey leaves (pencas), softened in a fire, were woven into the roofing frame like roof tiles. I suppose if a pueblo had the right kind of grass to use for thatch, they would use that instead of the pencas de maguey, but the rest of the frame would probably be the same. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Nov 24 14:31:24 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:31:24 -0600 Subject: ARTISTIC Iformation. In-Reply-To: <1069614885.3fc1072588b9f@www.whitman.edu> Message-ID: At 01:14 PM 11/23/2003, you wrote: >of Nahuatl >names, Nahuatl places, Nahuatl miths, Nahuatl poems, etc. etc. A first place to begin is the Nahuatl web site: http://www.nahuatl.org/ Names: http://www.mrs.umn.edu/academic/history/Nahuatl/names.html Poems: http://www.mrs.umn.edu/academic/history/Nahuatl/poetry.htm Vocabularies and Dictionaries: http://www.mrs.umn.edu/academic/history/Nahuatl/sources.htm John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From butlerpe at PURDUE.EDU Wed Nov 26 18:59:01 2003 From: butlerpe at PURDUE.EDU (butlerpe at PURDUE.EDU) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:59:01 -0500 Subject: Query: cuilote In-Reply-To: <1069592339.3fc0af139ee57@webaccess.umail.ucsb.edu> Message-ID: I am no expert in Nahuatl, but I think I can help you. When I was little my grandfather would take me with him to work in his empty house lot. One of the things we did was to cut the tall grass, which he referred to as "zacate." I have heard the word cuilote before I think, but I don't know what it is. My grandmother says it's probably bamboo. I think he made a little chante or jacal with daub and wattle walls, except with no daub, and the thatch was zacate (tall grasses). Sorry I can't help more. Paul Diaz Butler From jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 26 21:05:04 2003 From: jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Amith) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:05:04 -0500 Subject: kwihlo:tl and a:kapilo:lhi Message-ID: In my notes from Ameyaltepec and Oapan, Guerrero, I have the following entries, the spelling is different from Tetelcingo in the /hl/ sequence, underlyingly {ll}. Three relevant defintions: kwihlo:tl (Ameyaltepec and Oapan) 1 : wattle: the rods made of tlapextli that are laid down horizontally in the frame of the roof of a thatched house and to which the thatching (palm or grass) is attached. The kwihlo:tl are placed on the inside of the house, attached to the a:kapilo:hli , before the thatching process begins. Once the thatching process begins, these same types of rods are laid on the outside part of the roof, on top of the thatching to hold it in place. ROOTS: kwi a:kapilo:hli (Ameyaltepec and Oapan) 1 (Am/Oa) : light beams that form part of a house; these run from the caballete down to the kontrasole:rah Am / tlaxipacholo:ni ROOT(S): a:ka, pil Semantic notes: The a:kapilo:hli , part of a thatched roof house (of grass, sakatl , or palm, so:ya:tl ), are thin rods of wood that descend vertically along the roof of the house from the caballete to the solera . They are distinct, however, from the cabezas . The a:kapilo:hli along with the kwihlo:tl form the major part of the house frame. tlapextli (Ameyaltepec and Oapan) 1 : bed (originally those made of the rods from the inside of the cactus known also as ó:rganoh para tlapextli but now extended to include all beds) 2 : Pachycereus militaris (Andat) D. R. Hunt, a type of cactus (to:motli ) the insides rods of which are stripped and cleaned to be used for various items, including beds -- Xne:xte:kili notlapech para nokal! | Cut down atlapextli cactus for my house (so that the rods can be used for the roof of my house)! 3 : (i:tlake:nyo ~) bed sheet(s) Jonathan D. Amith Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College 300 N. Washington St. Campus Box 412 Gettysburg, PA 17325 Tel. 717/338-1255 From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Wed Nov 26 21:56:44 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:56:44 -0500 Subject: Eagles and jaguars In-Reply-To: <1069873141.3fc4f7f5dc278@webmail.purdue.edu> Message-ID: As you recall, we were discussing eagle and jaguar warriors this past week. Joe provided abundant attestions of the former but could find none for the latter. But one turned up today in the Florentine, book 12: Cortez is talking to the Aztecs who have come to greet him at the shore of the ocean (How Cortez speaks Nahuatl is anybody's guess ;-), and uses the vocative to address his interlocutors: "quimilhui tla xihualhuian moceloquichtle, tla xihualhuian..." ocelotl + oquichtli = oceloquichtli Michael From david at GLOSTER.NET Fri Nov 28 21:25:10 2003 From: david at GLOSTER.NET (David Gloster) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:25:10 +0100 Subject: Query: cuilote Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU Tue Nov 4 03:39:34 2003 From: jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Amith) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:39:34 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Total Immersion in San Agustin Oapan: Summer 2004 Message-ID: INTENSIVE NAHUATL IN SAN AGUSTIN OAPAN: Yale University Intensive Summer Nahuatl Institute, in collaboration with the University of Chicago, will offer an intensive immersion course that although based on modern Nahuatl from San Agust?n Oapan will familiarize students with colonial and classical Nahuatl by using a wide range of texts and workbooks. Given that teaching is focused not only on developing conversational skills but on imparting an understanding and overview of the general grammatical structure of Nahuatl, students will be able to apply their knowledge to their own thematic interests in any Nahuatl dialect that they might work with (ancient or modern). An effort is made to address the specific needs of students in different disciplines (e.g., anthropology, history, linguistics) and at different levels of expertise. Graduate students, undergraduates, and independent scholars are invited to apply. Students will be able to work intensively with native speakers as part of the basic educational experience of this course and those who have previously acquired skills in Nahuatl will be given the flexibility for a greater concentration of their efforts on translation, individual projects, and direct work with native speakers. Thus although a beginning course, students with previous experience in Nahuatl are encouraged to apply. Classes are 3? hours per day, Monday through Friday, with the instructor and native speakers. Additional intensive work or tutorials with native speakers may be arranged upon request. Students will be provided with recording and playback facilities for language laboratory work and to conduct their own research and independent study. The course meets all the requirements for FLAS fellowships. Limited possibility of FLAS assistance to graduate students outside of Yale (contact Yale Council on Latin American and Iberian Studies in the spring). Course tuition: $3,300 (application deadline is April 1, students who plan on attending but are unable to meet this deadline should contact Yale CLAIS) Room and Board: $400-500/month - To ensure housing students must send Yale Latin American Studies a non-refundable $150 deposit at time of application. The deposit will be applied towards room and board costs. Administrative Fee (payable to Yale CLAIS): $150 Travel costs and arrangements are the responsibility of the student. The Yale course will run for 8 weeks during the months of June and July. Space is limited so applicants are encouraged to apply early. Before submitting an application to Yale Summer Programs, potential students must contact Beatriz Riefkohl (beatriz.riefkohl at yale.edu) by email to arrange a phone discussion. She or the instructor (jonathan.amith at yale.edu) may also be contacted for any further information. Jonathan D. Amith Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College 300 N. Washington St. Campus Box 412 Gettysburg, PA 17325 Tel. 717/338-1255 From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Sat Nov 8 16:27:43 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 10:27:43 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Revitalizaci=F3n_de_las_lenguas_ind=EDgenas?= Message-ID: R?plicas con Mar?a Elena Villegas mevillegas at inah.gob.mx La Coordinaci?n General de Educaci?n Intercultural Biling?e y la Universidad Aut?noma de Quer?taro convocan a todas las Instituciones de Educaci?n Superior a participar en el: Taller Inter-universitario para la Revitalizaci?n de las lenguas ind?genas, que se llevar? a cabo en el Auditorio Fernando D?az Ram?rez, Centro Universitario de la Universidad Aut?noma de Quer?taro los d?as 13 y 14 de noviembre de 2003 con los siguientes objetivos: 1) Generar redes de trabajo y proyectos de investigaci?n aplicada conjuntos entre las Instituciones de Educaci?n Superior participantes. 2) Generar propuestas para la apertura de espacios de difusi?n de las lenguas y las culturas ind?genas en las IES, que sea factible de poner en marcha, a corto y mediano plazo. 3) Integrar un seminario permanente que permita desarrollar estrategias pedag?gicas para la ense?anza y revitalizaci?n de las lenguas ind?genas. Podr?n participar todos los docentes, investigadores y hablantes de lengua ind?gena, as? como todos los profesionales que desarrollen proyectos relacionados con la revitalizaci?n ling??stica de lenguas ind?genas y con aspectos relevantes de la educaci?n intercultural. Los interesados en participar en este evento deber?n enviar un resumen de su curr?culum y un documento que sintetice (no m?s de cinco cuartillas), el trabajo que realiza o ha realizado y su relaci?n con los objetivos del taller. El objetivo general de este encuentro es impulsar redes de trabajo conjunto entre las IES y al mismo tiempo propuestas viables para la generaci?n de una educaci?n intercultural en las Universidades. Las mesas de trabajo propuestas son las siguientes: Mesa 1 Estandarizaci?n y Modernizaci?n De Las Lenguas Ind?genas. Mesa 2 Revitalizaci?n De Las Lenguas Ind?genas. Mesa 3 Estrategias Pedag?gicas Para La Ense?anza De las Lenguas Ind?genas. Mesa 4 Cosmovisi?n y Filosof?a Ind?genas. Mesa 5 Lenguas poco estudiadas y Lenguas en peligro de extinci?n. PROGRAMA Jueves 13 de noviembre. 9:30 a.m. Palabras de bienvenida del ling?ista Dr. Ewald Hekking Inauguraci?n a Cargo de la Rectora de la Universidad de Quer?taro. M en C. Dolores Cabrera. Palabras de la coordinadora General de Educaci?n Intercultural Biling?e. Mtra. Sylvia Schmelkes. 10.30 a.m. Conferencia Magistral a cargo de la Dra. Rebeca Barriga con el tema: Pol?ticas Ling??sticas y educaci?n intercultural. 11.30 a.m. Organizaci?n de las mesas de trabajo y traslado a los salones. 12:00 p.m. Trabajo en mesas. 14:30 p.m. Comida 16.00 p.m. Trabajo en mesas. Viernes 14 de noviembre 9:30 a.m. Conferencia Magistral a cargo del Dr. Carlos Lenkersdorf. Presentaci?n de videos realizados por la Dra. Patricia Medina. 11:00 a.m. Mesas de trabajo (segunda fase) 14:30 p.m. Comida. 16:00 p.m. Plenaria y conclusiones. Mar?a Elena Villegas From idiez at MAC.COM Sat Nov 8 23:49:54 2003 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 17:49:54 -0600 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_Revitalizaci=F3n_de_las_lenguas_ind=EDgenas?= In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.0.20031108102633.01b62170@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Hi John, The problem is that the mevillegas address does not work. I'm going to contact the INAH on Monday to see what's going on. John Sullivan On Saturday, November 8, 2003, at 10:27 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > R?plicas con Mar?a Elena Villegas mevillegas at inah.gob.mx > > La Coordinaci?n General de Educaci?n Intercultural Biling?e y la > Universidad > Aut?noma de Quer?taro convocan a todas las Instituciones de Educaci?n > Superior a participar en el: Taller Inter-universitario para la > Revitalizaci?n de las lenguas ind?genas, que se llevar? a cabo en el > Auditorio Fernando D?az Ram?rez, Centro Universitario de la Universidad > Aut?noma de Quer?taro los d?as 13 y 14 de noviembre de 2003 con los > siguientes objetivos: > > 1) Generar redes de trabajo y proyectos de investigaci?n aplicada > conjuntos > entre las Instituciones de Educaci?n Superior participantes. > 2) Generar propuestas para la apertura de espacios de difusi?n de las > lenguas y las culturas ind?genas en las IES, que sea factible de poner > en > marcha, a corto y mediano plazo. > 3) Integrar un seminario permanente que permita desarrollar estrategias > pedag?gicas para la ense?anza y revitalizaci?n de las lenguas > ind?genas. > > Podr?n participar todos los docentes, investigadores y hablantes de > lengua > ind?gena, as? como todos los profesionales que desarrollen proyectos > relacionados con la revitalizaci?n ling??stica de lenguas ind?genas y > con > aspectos relevantes de la educaci?n intercultural. > > Los interesados en participar en este evento deber?n enviar un resumen > de su > curr?culum y un documento que sintetice (no m?s de cinco cuartillas), > el > trabajo que realiza o ha realizado y su relaci?n con los objetivos > del > taller. > > El objetivo general de este encuentro es impulsar redes de trabajo > conjunto > entre las IES y al mismo tiempo propuestas viables para la generaci?n > de una > educaci?n intercultural en las Universidades. Las mesas de trabajo > propuestas son las siguientes: > > Mesa 1 > Estandarizaci?n y Modernizaci?n De Las Lenguas Ind?genas. > Mesa 2 > Revitalizaci?n De Las Lenguas Ind?genas. > Mesa 3 > Estrategias Pedag?gicas Para La Ense?anza De las Lenguas Ind?genas. > Mesa 4 > Cosmovisi?n y Filosof?a Ind?genas. > Mesa 5 > Lenguas poco estudiadas y Lenguas en peligro de extinci?n. > > PROGRAMA > Jueves 13 de noviembre. > > 9:30 a.m. > Palabras de bienvenida del ling?ista Dr. Ewald Hekking > Inauguraci?n a Cargo de la Rectora de la Universidad de Quer?taro. > M en C. Dolores Cabrera. > Palabras de la coordinadora General de Educaci?n Intercultural > Biling?e. > Mtra. Sylvia Schmelkes. > > 10.30 a.m. > Conferencia Magistral a cargo de la Dra. Rebeca Barriga con el tema: > Pol?ticas Ling??sticas y educaci?n intercultural. > 11.30 a.m. > Organizaci?n de las mesas de trabajo y traslado a los salones. > 12:00 p.m. > Trabajo en mesas. > 14:30 p.m. > Comida > 16.00 p.m. > Trabajo en mesas. > > Viernes 14 de noviembre > 9:30 a.m. > Conferencia Magistral a cargo del Dr. Carlos Lenkersdorf. > Presentaci?n de videos realizados por la Dra. Patricia Medina. > 11:00 a.m. > Mesas de trabajo (segunda fase) > 14:30 p.m. > Comida. > 16:00 p.m. > Plenaria y conclusiones. > > > Mar?a Elena Villegas > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco Garc?a Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 M?xico +52 (492) 768-6048 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Nov 10 21:41:16 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:41:16 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fwd:_correcci=F3n_info_Taller_en_Quer=E9taro?= Message-ID: >Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:38:57 -0600 >Subject: correcci?n info Taller en Quer?taro >From: idiez at mac.com >To: "John F. Schwaller" >X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) > >John, > I spoke with Mar?a Elena Villegas from the Centro INAH Quer?taro, > who is coordinating the Taller Inter-universitario para la Revitalizaci?n > de las Lenguas Ind?genas. Evidently, there was an error in the email > contact address. The correct address is: >mevillegas.qro at inah.gob.mx >John > >John Sullivan, Ph.D. >Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua >Centro de Estudios Prospectivos >Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas >Director >Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. >Francisco Garc?a Salinas 604 >Colonia CNOP >Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 >M?xico >+52 (492) 768-6048 >idiez at mac.com >www.idiez.org.mx From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Wed Nov 12 14:43:41 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:43:41 -0600 Subject: Fwd: INFO: Aymara-English Textbook On-line Message-ID: For your information >From: Josh Beck >Date: November 11, 2003 > >The Center for Latin American Studies >at the University of Chicago > >is pleased to present the electronic publication of > >Aymar Arux Akhamawa >Aymara Language is Like This > >By Miguel Huanca > >http://clas.uchicago.edu/publications/aymara/index.html > >Aymara is an indigenous language of the Andean region of Bolivia, Peru, >Chile and Argentina. Approximately four million people in the region >consider Aymara to be their native language, including over one-third of >the population of Bolivia, making it one of the most widely-spoken >indigenous languages in South America. For over a decade, the University of >Chicago has been the only institution to offer regular Aymara instruction, >supported with funding from US Department of Education Title VI National >Resource Center grants. Aymar Arux Akhamawa is the only English-Aymara >textbook available. This valuable resource is now made available at no cost >for self-guided language learning via the world wide web, complete with >digitally-recorded native-spoken dialogues, vocabulary supplements, >original literature, and traditional song. The on-line publication of this >text can be found on the Center's website at >http://clas.uchicago.edu/thematic/aymara. This is the second edition of the >text developed by Miguel Huanca, who has taught 26 students in Aymara at >the University of Chicago since 1994 through the biannual Aymara Summer >Intensive Institute (http://clas.uchicago.edu/thematic/aymara/). The >Summer Institute will next be offered in 2005. For more information about >Aymara instruction at the University of Chicago Center for Latin American >Studies, contact clas at uchicago.edu or (773) 702-8420. > >Josh Beck >Administrator, Academic Programs & Outreach >Center for Latin American Studies >University of Chicago >5848 South University Ave., Kelly Hall 310 >Chicago, IL 60637 >phone (773) 702-8420 >fax (773) 702-1755 >web http://clas.uchicago.edu From jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 12 22:44:45 2003 From: jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Amith) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:44:45 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl at U. Chicago 2004-05 and FLAS funding Message-ID: Dear Listeros: Please note the following addition to a previous note re: a summer Nahuatl immersion course in Oapan, Guerrero: During academic year 2004-05, Jonathan Amith will teach a year-long intensive sequence in Nahuatl at the University of Chicago. Emphasis is placed on the diversity of Nahuatl in order to prepare students for work in a wide range of contexts. Proficiency-based instruction incorporates language tapes, on-line resources, and native-speakers as guest lecturers. Sudents will be given the option of registering for beginning or intermediate level instruction. However, students interested in the intermediate level must first complete the Yale Summer Intensive Nahuatl Institute or otherwise demonstrate an intermediate level of knowledge in Nahuatl. Both the Summer Institute at Yale and the Academic Year program at University of Chicago are FLAS-eligible. The University of Chicago invites students who have or will be able to obtain an academic year FLAS for learning Nahuatl to spend the year 2004-5 at the University of Chicago. Please contact Josh Beck (jpbeck at midway.uchicago.edu) for further information. ___________________ Jonathan D. Amith Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College 300 N. Washington St. Campus Box 412 Gettysburg, PA 17325 Tel. 717/338-1255 From idiez at MAC.COM Wed Nov 19 01:49:00 2003 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:49:00 -0600 Subject: Grammar charts on the web Message-ID: Over the years, I have put together a number of intuitive grammar charts, first, in order to facilitate my own learning, then later, to help my students. I'm going to start putting these on the web in order to get feedback and so that people can use them if they find them helpful. I have started with two versions of a basic verb morpheme chart which should be helpful to people who have had an introduction to Classical Nahuatl, but waste a lot of time going back and forth between texts and grammars. Some elements are simplified. (CNBasicVerb01e.doc) is in English and its labels are traditional grammar terminology. (CNBasicVerb01ei) es also in English, but its labels are for people who have difficulty working with this terminology. The two files are meant to be printed on sheets of legal size paper. There is also a file (CNNumbers.doc) which neatly synthesizes the number system and can be printed on a letter-size piece of paper. Over time I will include more charts in both English and Spanish. The files can be downloaded at http://homepage.mac.com/idiez/FileSharing1.html (you don't have to have a Mac to access and download). Please send your comments to idiez at mac.com John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco Garc?a Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 M?xico +52 (492) 768-6048 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM Wed Nov 19 14:40:33 2003 From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:40:33 +0100 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre Message-ID: Por favor alguien podria decirme como traducir "caballero aguila" y "caballero tigre" al Nahuatl? He buscado en el diccionario de Molina, pero no esta la palabra "caballero" y en los varios libros de historia (incluyendo Duran, Sahagun y Davies), no encuentro mencion de estos terminos en Nahuatl. Seria eventualmente correcto decir "cuauhtecuhtli" y "ocelotecuhtli" a pesar de que tecuhtli en realidad no quiera decir "caballero"? Muchas gracias. Susana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Wed Nov 19 15:43:25 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:43:25 -0500 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre In-Reply-To: <00ce01c3aeac$14e07c50$2ccd623e@mexico> Message-ID: Quoting Susana Moraleda-Dragotto : Susana: If by "caballero," you mean "man", that would be oquechtli, even tlacatl. Moteuczoma is referred to as "tlacatl Moteuczomatzin" in the Florentine Codex. However, I think that in the case of the eagle and jaguar warriors, teuctli, commonly and incorrectly written *tecuhtli, is what exactly what you are looking for. Michael McCafferty > Por favor alguien podria decirme como traducir "caballero aguila" y > "caballero tigre" al Nahuatl? He buscado en el diccionario de Molina, pero > no esta la palabra "caballero" y en los varios libros de historia > (incluyendo Duran, Sahagun y Davies), no encuentro mencion de estos terminos > en Nahuatl. > Seria eventualmente correcto decir "cuauhtecuhtli" y "ocelotecuhtli" a pesar > de que tecuhtli en realidad no quiera decir "caballero"? > > Muchas gracias. > > Susana > > > From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Wed Nov 19 16:54:31 2003 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:54:31 -0500 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre Message-ID: Susana, Supongo que esta pregunta es motivada por el uso de este termino para describir muchas figuras, esculturas, etc. que se encuentran en los museos y monumentos arqueologicos en Mexico. Entonces, la pregunta debe ser mas bien: ?cual fue el termino original que se usaba para describir estas figuras o personas? Filosoficamente, la diferencia es importante. Hay que tener en cuenta que el termino caballero tiene un sentido determinado por la cultural y la sociedad en las cuales se origino. Creo que tienes razon que el uso del termino "teuctli" seria inapropiado. Y esto demuestra justamente el problema de la traduccion que acabo de sennalar. O sea, la traduccion de "caballero" como "teuctli" es una traduccion de una traduccion justificable desde una perspective metodologica que se basa en la consecuencia entre los campos semanticos de estas palabras. Pero el solapamiento de los campos semanticos no es completo y puede resultar en errores cada vez mas serios especialmente cuando se trata de traducciones de traducciones. La razon por la cual se usa el termino caballero en este contexto es por la relacion entre "caballero" y "guerrero." Estas figuras de hombres-aguilas y hombres-tigres son representaciones de guerreros que pertenecian a ciertos grupos o clases de guerreros metaforicamente asociados con estos animales. Parece que tambien llevaban trajes de guerra que simbolizaban de alguna forma el animal. Pero no creo que se pueda aplicar el termino teuctli--por lo menos de manera general--a estos guerreros. A base de textos coloniales (historiografia/etnografia y poesia), en Nahuatl se utilizaba meramente los terminos "cuauhtli" y "ocelotl" para referirse a estas personas, y se entendia por el contexto que se referia a los guerreros en vez de los animales mismos. Galen Susana Moraleda-Dragotto wrote: > Por favor alguien podria decirme como traducir "caballero aguila" y > "caballero tigre" al Nahuatl? He buscado en el diccionario de Molina, pero > no esta la palabra "caballero" y en los varios libros de historia > (incluyendo Duran, Sahagun y Davies), no encuentro mencion de estos terminos > en Nahuatl. > Seria eventualmente correcto decir "cuauhtecuhtli" y "ocelotecuhtli" a pesar > de que tecuhtli en realidad no quiera decir "caballero"? > > Muchas gracias. > > Susana > From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Wed Nov 19 17:40:57 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:40:57 -0600 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre In-Reply-To: <1069256605.3fbb8f9ded0a3@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: At 09:43 AM 11/19/2003, you wrote: >If by "caballero," you mean "man", that would be oquechtli, even tlacatl. >Moteuczoma is referred to as "tlacatl Moteuczomatzin" in the Florentine Codex. La palabra "caballero" fue puesto por los espanoles. No creo que fue traducida del Nahuatl. Estos grupos de guerreros fueron reconocidos por los espanoles como si fueran caballeros. En general, creo que fueron denominados en Nahuatl como -tecuhtli John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Nov 19 17:46:12 2003 From: jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9?= Rabasa) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:46:12 -0800 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre In-Reply-To: <00ce01c3aeac$14e07c50$2ccd623e@mexico> Message-ID: El termino caballero es un anacronismo ya que no existian caballos antes de la invasion europea. Jose Rabasa >Por favor alguien podria decirme como traducir "caballero aguila" y >"caballero tigre" al Nahuatl? He buscado en el diccionario de Molina, pero >no esta la palabra "caballero" y en los varios libros de historia >(incluyendo Duran, Sahagun y Davies), no encuentro mencion de estos terminos >en Nahuatl. >Seria eventualmente correcto decir "cuauhtecuhtli" y "ocelotecuhtli" a pesar >de que tecuhtli en realidad no quiera decir "caballero"? > >Muchas gracias. > >Susana From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Wed Nov 19 20:05:06 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:05:06 -0600 Subject: Nahua Newsletter Message-ID: Number 36 of the Nahua Newsletter arrived in my mailbox today. The good news is that back issues are now available on the web: http://www.ipfw.edu/soca/Nahua.htm For further information write: Alan R. Sandstrom Department of Anthropology Indiana University - Purdue University Fort Wayne 2101 Coliseum Blvd. East Fort Wayne, IN 46805 Sandstro at ipfw.edu John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Wed Nov 19 20:54:57 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:54:57 -0500 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre (fwd) Message-ID: Earlier today i wrote Susana something to the effect that if by "caballero," she meant "man," that would be of course oquichtli, even tlacatl. Moteuczoma is called "tlacatl Moteuczoma" in the Florentine. And by that his subjects weren't saying just any old dude. That said, I also mentioned that in the case of the eagle and jaguar warriors, teuctli, commonly and obliquely written *tecuhtli, is probably what she is after. Michael From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Wed Nov 19 20:57:12 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:57:12 -0500 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: See: http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/search/web/cuauhtecuhtli On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > Earlier today i wrote Susana something to the effect that if by > "caballero," she meant "man," that would be of course oquichtli, even > tlacatl. Moteuczoma is called "tlacatl Moteuczoma" in the Florentine. > And by that his subjects weren't saying just any old dude. > > That said, I also mentioned that in the case of the eagle and jaguar > warriors, teuctli, commonly and obliquely written *tecuhtli, is probably > what she is after. > > Michael > > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Wed Nov 19 21:01:08 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:01:08 -0500 Subject: Caballeros In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At the time of the Spanish conquest of Mexico, did the term "caballero" only refer to someone who rode a horse, or did it refer as it does in modern Spanish to a gentleman? Michael McCaballero On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, [iso-8859-1] Jos? Rabasa wrote: > El termino caballero es un anacronismo ya que no existian caballos > antes de la invasion europea. Jose Rabasa > > >Por favor alguien podria decirme como traducir "caballero aguila" y > >"caballero tigre" al Nahuatl? He buscado en el diccionario de Molina, pero > >no esta la palabra "caballero" y en los varios libros de historia > >(incluyendo Duran, Sahagun y Davies), no encuentro mencion de estos terminos > >en Nahuatl. > >Seria eventualmente correcto decir "cuauhtecuhtli" y "ocelotecuhtli" a pesar > >de que tecuhtli en realidad no quiera decir "caballero"? > > > >Muchas gracias. > > > >Susana > > > From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Wed Nov 19 21:01:08 2003 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:01:08 -0700 Subject: Reviewers sought Message-ID: I'm trying to put together a list of potential reviewers who are qualified to critique a translation of a Nahuatl text. Could any of you recommend one or more such persons? Richley Crapo From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Wed Nov 19 21:35:33 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:35:33 -0600 Subject: Caballeros In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 03:01 PM 11/19/2003, you wrote: >At the time of the Spanish conquest of Mexico, did the term "caballero" >only refer to someone who rode a horse, or did it refer as it does in >modern Spanish to a gentleman? It meant both. There is a long discourse I read from a nobleman in late 16th cen. Spain decrying the lamentable state of the Spanish nobility. He was much aghast that they rode around in carriages, and that many young gentlemen had lost the ability to ride a hose. How could they, he went on, be gentlemen (caballeros) if they no longer rode or owned a horse (caballo)? In fact in order to be a member of one of the Spanish orders of nobility, Santiago, Calatrava, and Alcantar, one had to demonstrate that he could ride a horse. Members, furthermore, were prohibited from riding in carriages, without express royal license to do so. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From micc2 at COX.NET Wed Nov 19 21:44:00 2003 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:44:00 -0800 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yo propongo que un termino correcto seria "yaoquichtli" hombre de guerra.... Jos? Rabasa wrote: > El termino caballero es un anacronismo ya que no existian caballos > antes de la invasion europea. Jose Rabasa > >> Por favor alguien podria decirme como traducir "caballero aguila" y >> "caballero tigre" al Nahuatl? He buscado en el diccionario de Molina, >> pero >> no esta la palabra "caballero" y en los varios libros de historia >> (incluyendo Duran, Sahagun y Davies), no encuentro mencion de estos >> terminos >> en Nahuatl. >> Seria eventualmente correcto decir "cuauhtecuhtli" y "ocelotecuhtli" >> a pesar >> de que tecuhtli en realidad no quiera decir "caballero"? >> >> Muchas gracias. >> >> Susana > > From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Wed Nov 19 22:02:08 2003 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:02:08 -0500 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre (fwd) Message-ID: Hi Michael, It used to be that when you sent messages to Nahuat-l, you got a copy of your own message along with everyone else. It seems that this is no longer the case, and it kind of confused me at first, because when I first noticed it, I thought that maybe my message never went through. I did get your original response to Susana, but I didn't see it until I had already sent mine to the list. I should clarify that I am not claiming that there was no such thing as a "cuauhteuctli" but rather that this term would probably have referred to the leader of the order as opposed to Eagle warriors in general. I could be wrong about this, but in my admittedly limited experience, I have never seen the warriors from the military orders referred to in general as "cuauhteuctli" or "oceloteuctli". The websites you point do contain the terms "cuauhtecuhtli" and "ocelotecuhtli," but almost all of them are reproductions of the same poem and historical introduction that form part of a character role play game of the dungeons and dragons type, and the one or two other instances on other pages give no documentary source. Even so, the author of the role-play game, evidently a guy named Alejandro Melchor, uses the term "cuauhtecuhtli" to refer only to the leader of the military order, and the historical explanation that appears after the poem uses the term "cuacuauhtzin" to refer to the Eagle warriors in general, which is consistent with what I was saying before. In this respect, I think the guy who created this game and its characters is very well informed. In English, the name of the warriors is translated as "Eagle knight," which is consistent with the Spanish translation of "cabellero aguila". So, I would argue that the term caballero in the Spanish translation is based on the fact that this person is a warrior/knight/soldier rather than a "teuctli." And so, I would still maintain that the correct retranslation of "caballero aguila" would be merely "cuauhtli." Have I convinced you? Galen Michael Mccafferty wrote: > See: > > http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/search/web/cuauhtecuhtli > > > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > >>Earlier today i wrote Susana something to the effect that if by >>"caballero," she meant "man," that would be of course oquichtli, even >>tlacatl. Moteuczoma is called "tlacatl Moteuczoma" in the Florentine. >>And by that his subjects weren't saying just any old dude. >> >>That said, I also mentioned that in the case of the eagle and jaguar >>warriors, teuctli, commonly and obliquely written *tecuhtli, is probably >>what she is after. >> >>Michael >> >> > > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Wed Nov 19 22:32:18 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:32:18 -0500 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3FBBE860.7050606@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: Great. Thanks, Galen. On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Galen Brokaw wrote: > Hi Michael, > It used to be that when you sent messages to Nahuat-l, you got a copy of > your own message along with everyone else. It seems that this is no > longer the case, and it kind of confused me at first, because when I > first noticed it, I thought that maybe my message never went through. > I did get your original response to Susana, but I didn't see it until I > had already sent mine to the list. > I should clarify that I am not claiming that there was no such thing as > a "cuauhteuctli" but rather that this term would probably have referred > to the leader of the order as opposed to Eagle warriors in general. > I could be wrong about this, but in my admittedly limited experience, I > have never seen the warriors from the military orders referred to in > general as "cuauhteuctli" or "oceloteuctli". The websites you point do > contain the terms "cuauhtecuhtli" and "ocelotecuhtli," but almost all of > them are reproductions of the same poem and historical introduction that > form part of a character role play game of the dungeons and dragons > type, and the one or two other instances on other pages give no > documentary source. Even so, the author of the role-play game, evidently > a guy named Alejandro Melchor, uses the term "cuauhtecuhtli" to refer > only to the leader of the military order, and the historical explanation > that appears after the poem uses the term "cuacuauhtzin" to refer to the > Eagle warriors in general, which is consistent with what I was saying > before. In this respect, I think the guy who created this game and its > characters is very well informed. > In English, the name of the warriors is translated as "Eagle knight," > which is consistent with the Spanish translation of "cabellero aguila". > So, I would argue that the term caballero in the Spanish translation is > based on the fact that this person is a warrior/knight/soldier rather > than a "teuctli." And so, I would still maintain that the correct > retranslation of "caballero aguila" would be merely "cuauhtli." > Have I convinced you? > Galen > > > > > > > > Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > See: > > > > http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/search/web/cuauhtecuhtli > > > > > > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > > > > >>Earlier today i wrote Susana something to the effect that if by > >>"caballero," she meant "man," that would be of course oquichtli, even > >>tlacatl. Moteuczoma is called "tlacatl Moteuczoma" in the Florentine. > >>And by that his subjects weren't saying just any old dude. > >> > >>That said, I also mentioned that in the case of the eagle and jaguar > >>warriors, teuctli, commonly and obliquely written *tecuhtli, is probably > >>what she is after. > >> > >>Michael > >> > >> > > > > > > > From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Nov 20 01:13:55 2003 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:13:55 -0500 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre In-Reply-To: <00ce01c3aeac$14e07c50$2ccd623e@mexico> Message-ID: on 11/19/03 9:40 AM, Susana Moraleda-Dragotto at susana at DRAGOTTO.COM wrote: Por favor alguien podria decirme como traducir "caballero aguila" y "caballero tigre" al Nahuatl? He buscado en el diccionario de Molina, pero no esta la palabra "caballero" y en los varios libros de historia (incluyendo Duran, Sahagun y Davies), no encuentro mencion de estos terminos en Nahuatl. Seria eventualmente correcto decir "cuauhtecuhtli" y "ocelotecuhtli" a pesar de que tecuhtli en realidad no quiera decir "caballero"? Muchas gracias. Susana Nice to hear from you Susana! Thanks to Joe's helpful concordance from the Florentine Codex, it seems clear that eagle warriors and jaguar warriors were often referred to metaphorically simply as eagles and jaguars. Granted that the word ocelotl refers in English to a much smaller feline than the jaguar, but in Nahuatl, ocelotl is the big cat, and the smaller one is sometimes referenced with one or another of the diminutive suffixes (-tzin, -ton, maybe even -pil). One isn't likely to find "caballero" in a bilingual Spanish/Nahuatl dictionary, considering the literal meaning of caballero. Mesoamerican fighters were of necessity foot warriors. Yaotl, 'enemy,' is often to be found in descriptions of battle. Teuctli refers only to lords. Frances -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM Thu Nov 20 11:16:01 2003 From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:16:01 +0100 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre Message-ID: Re: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre Muchas gracias a todos por la discusion de la traduccion de los terminos en objeto. No cabe duda de que el vocablo "caballero" que se usa hoy en dia en espa?ol para referirse a estos GUERREROS del pasado, se refiere a su acepcion como "lord", y no a la que se refiere a "quien monta un caballo".... pero, me pregunto yo, cual era el termino que usaban los Aztecas para referirse a ellos? He seguido buscando en otros libros bajo capitulos que narran de la organizacion militar, pero nada. Asi es de que a un cierto punto pense que tal vez utilizaban el termino equivalente a GUERRERO, pero tambien en este caso, estoy confundida. La palabra "yaotl" significa "enemigo" segun Molina (y segun mi insigne y querida maestra Frances Karttunen a quien mando un calido saludo).... de acuerdo. pero.... un enemigo no siempre es un guerrero, asi como un guerrero no es siempre un enemigo......(?). Molina, bajo "guerreador" dice "teyaochiuani, teicalini, yaoc tlayecoani, teyaotlani" Mientras que en mi humilde opinion, teyaochiuani y teyaotlani definen muy claramente "quien hace la guerra", los otros dos terminos no los entiendo bien (teicalini, yaoc tlayecoani".. Entonces, cuauhteyaochihuani o cuauhteyaotlani? (con o sin "te"?) En fin, aparte de todo este analisis de significados, que es extremadamente interesante, yo quisiera saber con que vocablos se referian los Aztecas a esta famosa e importante categoria militar. Me parece increible que no se pueda encontrar un texto Nahuatl donde se especifique. Gracias, Susana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Nov 20 14:22:56 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:22:56 -0600 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 07:13 PM 11/19/2003, you wrote: >Thanks to Joe's helpful concordance from the Florentine Codex, it seems >clear that eagle warriors and jaguar warriors were often referred to >metaphorically simply as eagles and jaguars. Joe was kind enough to send me the complete concordance relating to ocelots and eagles. It is a fairly large file, and so I did not post it to the entire list. If you would like a copy, please request it off-line [that is DO NOT hit the Reply button, send me a private message, please] J. F. Schwaller List owner John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Nov 20 14:13:34 2003 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:13:34 -0500 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre In-Reply-To: <00b001c3af57$b75ce580$41d4623e@mexico> Message-ID: Ross Hassig wrote a book, now out of print, entitled Aztec Warfare. It is Vol. 1888 of the Civilization of the American Indian Series. Hassig also wrote Mexico and the Spanish Conquest, published in 1995. More information about both of these is available in the amazon.com listings. On p. 229 of Aztecs (Cambridge University Press, 1991) Inga Clendinnen vividly decribes how the eagle and jaguar warriors became imbued with the characteristics of the animals they represented, and she goes on to talk about their costumes in considerable detail. In fact, Clendinnen has much to say about Aztec warfare throughout her book. Her index entry under "warriors" goes on and on, but she is not a source for Nahuatl-language terminology. Towns subject to the Aztec Triple Alliance were required to provide costumes as part of their tribute, and they are beautifully illustrated in facsimiles of the Codex Mendoza, which is essentially an illustrated tax list. From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Thu Nov 20 14:29:08 2003 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:29:08 -0500 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre Message-ID: > No cabe duda de que el vocablo "caballero" que se usa hoy en dia en > espa?ol para referirse a estos GUERREROS del pasado, se refiere a su > acepcion como "lord", y no a la que se refiere a "quien monta un > caballo".... > pero, me pregunto yo, cual era el termino que usaban los Aztecas para > referirse a ellos? Susana, Esto es justamente lo que estaba diciendo que no es el caso. Primero, el punto que yo trate de sennalar y que Fran confirmo a base del Codice florentino es que las palabras en Nahuatl que se han traducido como "caballero aguila" y "caballero ocelotl" son meramente "cuauhtli" y "ocelotl" respectivamente. La acepcion "lord" del termino caballero es justamente parte del campo semantico de ese termino que no comparte con el campo semantico del significante "cuauhtli," el cual era la palabra que se utilizaba para referirse a un guerrero que pertenecia a la orden militar asociada metaforicamente con el simbolo del aguila. La inclinacion de retraducir "caballero aguila" como "cuauhteuctli" demuestra uno de los problemas de la traduccion y la retraduccion. La traduccion original de "cuauhtli" como "caballero aguila" responde a la necesidad de indicar que el termino indica un guerrero porque en espannol "aguila" no se asocia metaforicamente con "guerrero." Pero el uso del termino "caballero" invoca muchas cosas que no tenian nada que ver con el guerrero conocido como "cuauhtli." Entonces, la acepcion "lord" del termino "caballero" no es lo que permitio la relacion analogica necesaria para la traduccion de "cuauhtli" como "caballero aguila." Yo diria que la acepcion del termino "caballero" que establecio la necesaria relacion analogica era "guerrero." La traduccion inevitablement resulta especificando un campo semantico diferente al del termino traducido del Nahuatl. La retraducion de "caballero aguila" como "cuauhteuctli" incorpora parte del campo semantico del termino "caballero" determinada por la cultura espannola que no es analoga a la nocion original de "cuauhtli." > En fin, aparte de todo este analisis de significados, que es > extremadamente interesante, yo quisiera saber con que vocablos se > referian los Aztecas a esta famosa e importante categoria militar. Me > parece increible que no se pueda encontrar un texto Nahuatl donde se > especifique. Pero el Codice florentino sI especifica las palabras que se utlizaban para referirse a estos guerreros y esas palabras son, como he explicado, "cuauhtli" y "ocelotl." Aunque la asociacion entre "cuauhtli" y "caballero aguila" se establecio por medio de la nocion "guerrero," esto no quiere decir que sea necesario especificar que "cuauhtli" era guerrero. Claro, habia terminos generales que se podian utilizar para referirse a guerreros en un sentido generico, pero los terminos "caballero aguila" y "caballero tigre" son "traducciones" de "cuauhtli" y "ocelotl". Y el contexto del uso indicaba que estas palabras se referian a guerreros pertenecientes a ordenes militares. O sea, no era necesario especificar explicitamente con otro termino linguistico que eran guerreros; "cuauhtli" y "ocelotl" ya contienen dentro de sus campos semanticos por extension metaforica el significante o referente "guerrero". Galen From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Nov 20 16:17:21 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:17:21 -0600 Subject: Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre In-Reply-To: <00b001c3af57$b75ce580$41d4623e@mexico> Message-ID: At 05:16 AM 11/20/2003, Susana Moraleda-Dragotto wrote: >quisiera saber con que vocablos se referian los Aztecas a esta famosa e >importante categoria militar. Para mi, no cabe duda que en las fuentes que tradicionalmente utilizamos, como el Codice Florentino, usaba la palabra -teuctli- gneralmente en su forma -tecuhtli- Claro no fueron principes ni gobernadores, que es uno de los significativos que tenemos para -teuctli-, pero el significativo Nahua, al parecer era mas amplio para encubrir a estos valientes. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri Nov 21 13:34:32 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:34:32 -0500 Subject: Tlein ticmati? Message-ID: In the Florentine Codex, Book line 91, where there is a recounting of the exchange of gifts that occurred at the first meeting of the Aztecs and the Spanish, we find: "quinhualcuepcayotilique," which D. and A. translated "[the Spaniards] gave them gifts in return". |quin-hual-cuepcayotl-causative-benefactive-plural|. Can someone explain what is going on here? Why the benefactive? Couldn't one have simply said *quinhualcuepcayotique? tlaxtlahui, Michael From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri Nov 21 15:27:49 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:27:49 -0500 Subject: Tlein ticmati? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Let me restate my original query: In the Florentine Codex, Book 12, page 6, fourth paragraph from the top there is a recounting of the exchange of gifts that occurred at the first meeting of the Aztecs and the Spanish: It reads: "quinhualcuepcayotilique," which D. and A. translated "[the Spaniards] gave them gifts in return". quin-hual-cuepcayotia-lia Can someone explain why the benefactive is used here? Couldn't one have simply said *quinhualcuepcayotique? *Tlatlaxtlahui* , Michael From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Fri Nov 21 16:10:43 2003 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 11:10:43 -0500 Subject: Tlein ticmati? Message-ID: Michael, I see the importance of your clarification. If the "ti" were interpreted as causative, then it wouldn't make sense. If it were causitive, one would expect that what we are dealing with really isn't a benefactive form but rather an honorific consisting of the causative in conjunction with the benefactive, in which case one would expect to find the reflexive "mo" at the beginning of the word. And actually that would be possible in that the "mo" might be disguised in the "quin-hual" really being "quin-mo-hual". Of course, if that were the case, the verb would have to be "cuepcayo." But, as your clarification indicates, this isn't a verb; its a noun (actually a verb which has been converted into a noun) with the suffix "tia" which turns it back into a transitive verb. It seems to me that the benefactive is appropriate in this context, no? So, maybe one has a choice here of using the benefactive or not. Moreover, this sentence inherently has both a specific direct object and a specific indirect object but only one of these objects may appear because of the rule that prevents a construction like "quimquimcuepcayotilique." So, maybe they use the benfactive to emphasize the presence of the indirect object which doesn't appear explicitly. I wonder if this is a general practice: using the benefactive form precisely because one is prevented from explicitly expressing the indirect object. Galen Michael Mccafferty wrote: > Let me restate my original query: > > > > In the Florentine Codex, Book 12, page 6, fourth paragraph from the top > there is a recounting of the exchange of gifts that occurred at the first meeting of the Aztecs and the > Spanish: > > It reads: "quinhualcuepcayotilique," which D. and A. translated "[the > Spaniards] gave them gifts in return". > > quin-hual-cuepcayotia-lia > > Can someone explain why the benefactive is used here? Couldn't > one have simply said *quinhualcuepcayotique? > > *Tlatlaxtlahui* > , > Michael > From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Fri Nov 21 18:18:02 2003 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 13:18:02 -0500 Subject: Tlein ticmati? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: M2 wrote: > > "quinhualcuepcayotilique," which D. and A. translated "[the Spaniards] > gave them gifts in return". > > Michael, Galen, and Mochintin: My suggested answer is contained in the comment on #91 below: FC, Book 12, p. 6: 90. in izquitlamantli in in quimonmacaque, all these various things they presented to [the spaniards. *** the singular noun "izquitlamantli" is represented in the verb by "qui-", which is 'covered up' by "quim-". 91. quinhualcuepcayotilique, [these] gave them gifts in return. *** Parallel to 90 and 92, "quinhualcuepcayotilique" has an implicit "qui-" (direct object), which is 'covered up' by "quim-". "quin-" is therefore the indirect object, marked again by the benefactive "li[a]". 92. quinhualmacaque cozcatl, xoxoctic, coztic: iuhquinma in apozonalnenequi: they offered them green and yellow necklaces which resembled amber. *** the singular noun "cozcatl" is represented in the verb by "qui-", which is 'covered up' by "quim-". ================================= My Detour in Analysis: As Michael and Galen have pointed out, the "-ti[a?]" must surely be a "verber" (one of the verb formatives that Nahuatl includes in its toolbox to make verbs from nouns). I sat down to ponder the problem last night and looked at some old notes, which turned out to be a mistake, since I had made them many layers of innocence ago. |8-) Nahuatl has two "-ti" verb formatives: 1 -ti 'be or become like the entity referred to by the base noun' acah someone nacahti I become someone ahtleh nothing ahtlehtiz he will become nothing calpixqui steward ticalpixcatiz you will become a steward (with the regular appearance of "-ca" in 'protected position' instead of '-qui') 2 -ti 'have the entity referred to by the base noun' a:pi:ztli hunger na:pi:zti I behave like a glutton; I eat without filling up caquiztli sound caquiztiz it will have a sound; it will be heard (I'll refer to these "verbers" as "ti-1" and "ti-2") "ti-1" normally takes a "-lia" causative and "ti-2" normally takes a "-a" causative *ti-1* a:tl water nica:tilia I melt it; I cause it to become like water ahtleh nothing ninahtlehtilia I humiliate myself centetl one niccentetilia I join it (with something else), I unite it; I cause it to become one *ti-2* a:huitl aunt nimitza:huitia I provide you with an aunt a:xi:cyo:tl whirlpool (water-navelness) ma:xi:cyo:tia it develops whirlpools mecatl rope momecatia he provides himself with a concubine I considered the possibility that in the word "quinhualcuepcayotilihque", the sequence "tili" represented . Since "-cuepcayo:tl" means something like "returned thing" (abstract), that would mean that 'they' caused 'them' ("quin-") to become a returned thing. Obviously, the solution suggested in #91 above (i.e., that "-tili" represents ) is semantically superior (they provided them with a returned thing) and the form problem is resolved by the principle in Nahuatl grammar that forbids the overt representation of more than one specific projective object prefixes (e.g., there are no sequences of "qui-" and "quim-"). Saludos, Joe p.s. Some data follows.... ================================= Molinas and the FC: The following data is undoubtedly messy and still full of errors and things still unthought-out, but it tends to corroborate the pattern of one-argument-verbs occurring *without* the benefactive "-li[a]" and two-argument-verbs occurring *with* the benefactive suffix. cuecuepcayotililo , ne-. there is continual reciprocating. . FC cuepcayotia , qui-. he takes reprisal. . FC cuepcayotia , quihual-. they give it in return. . FC cuepcayotia =nic. embiar otra cosa en retorno. . 55m-7 cuepcayotia =nitla. embiar otra cosa en retorno. . 55m-7 cuepcayotia =nitla=onitlacuepcayoti. dar algo en retorno, o pagar enla misma moneda. . 71m2-5 cuepcayotilia , nechtla-. he repays me. . FC cuepcayotilia =nitetla. recompenssar; vengarse; daren retorno cosas buenas o malas. . 55m-17 cuepcayotilia =nitetla=onitetlacuepcayotili. dar algo enretorno, o vengarse dela injuria; ovengarse dela injuria recebida. . 71m2-5 cuepcayotiliani =tetla. vengador; vengatiuo. . 55m-19 cuepcayotililiztli =tetla. recompenssacion; vengan?a; venganza; o retorno del bien; o mal que a otro se hizo; o recompenssa. . 55m-17 cuepcayotilique , quinhual-. they gave them gifts in return. . FC cuepcayotiliztli =tetla. retorno de presente. . 55m-17 cuepcayotiliztli =tla. retorno assi. &c; tornaboda. . 71m2-20 cuepcayotiloni =tla. embiada cosa assi; retorno assi. &c. . 55m-7 From ksmith at UMAIL.UCSB.EDU Sun Nov 23 12:58:59 2003 From: ksmith at UMAIL.UCSB.EDU (Kevin Smith) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 04:58:59 -0800 Subject: Query: cuilote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nahuatlatos, A colleague of mine in transcribing an interview he did recently with a 100-year-old man in Ozumba. At one point, his informant states that he "built a house of zacate and cuilote." Can anyone shed light on either the materials or the implied method of construction? Thanks much, Kevin If work is such a good thing, how come the rich haven't grabbed it all for themselves? -- Haitian proverb Kevin Paul Smith Ph.D. Student Department of History University of California Santa Barbara From Huehueteot at AOL.COM Sun Nov 23 14:08:23 2003 From: Huehueteot at AOL.COM (Huehueteot at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 09:08:23 EST Subject: Query: cuilote Message-ID: Paul, Zacate is usually translated as grass when it occurs in Spanish. It is borrowed from Nahuatl for the same substance. What language was the interview in? Cuilote I am not sure of, perhaps others on this list will be able to answer since they are more current both with Nahuatl and with the area but it should be some sort of stiffer materiel such as reeds or tree branches or what would be called "wattle." Your informant is probably describing the process of building a wattle and daub house or thatching a roof. Cheers, Sam Ball -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Sun Nov 23 18:10:14 2003 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 13:10:14 -0500 Subject: Query: cuilote In-Reply-To: <1069592339.3fc0af139ee57@webaccess.umail.ucsb.edu> Message-ID: > An interview he did recently with a > 100-year-old man in Ozumba. At one point, his informant states that he "built > a > house of zacate and cuilote." Zacate is the hispanization of zacatl 'grass/hay.' I wonder if this would represent zacatl and cuitlatl, i.e., a house built of adobe blocks containing hay and dung. From trejovm at WHITMAN.EDU Sun Nov 23 19:14:45 2003 From: trejovm at WHITMAN.EDU (trejovm at WHITMAN.EDU) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:14:45 -0800 Subject: ARTISTIC Iformation. Message-ID: hello to all of you. my name is Victor , I love reading to your e-mails and comments of all this treasure information that all of you provide, I thick this is fantastic and helpfully to my work. this brings me to the question and information i need from you, I'm an artist (sculptor ) and for the past 16 years of experience I've helped numerous artist to reproduce their work, lots of it just fantastic and well elaborrating work but most of it not necesary good, by chance I gain tremenduos amount of talent and many ideas. I'm originally from mexico city and now I live in walla walla wa. extreme change I know. As you may Know now how passionate and proud many of us natives are about our languages and to me personally has become even more romantic and magical may be because I miss being at home ,unfortunately I'm and artist not a linguist, here is where you can help me to transform my pending ideas to beutifull and conceptual artwork by helping me with titles of books that you might know , of Nahuatl names, Nahuatl places, Nahuatl miths, Nahuatl poems, etc. etc. I will treasure your information, and be thankfull forever. sincerely yours. Victor trejo Quoting Huehueteot at AOL.COM: > Paul, > > Zacate is usually translated as grass when it occurs in Spanish. It is > borrowed from Nahuatl for the same substance. What language was the > interview in? > Cuilote I am not sure of, perhaps others on this list will be able to answer > since they are more current both with Nahuatl and with the area but it > should > be some sort of stiffer materiel such as reeds or tree branches or what > would > be called "wattle." Your informant is probably describing the process of > building a wattle and daub house or thatching a roof. > > Cheers, > > Sam Ball > -------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through Whitman College Webmail 3.1 From bstross at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Sun Nov 23 18:17:56 2003 From: bstross at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Brian Stross) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:17:56 -0400 Subject: Query: cuilote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> An interview he did recently with a >> 100-year-old man in Ozumba. At one point, his informant states that he "built >> a >> house of zacate and cuilote." Cuilote is a 'stick' (palo or vara) and probably comes from the similar sounding word in Nahuatl (kwilo:tl) meaning 'stick'. Such sticks are used in roofing a thatch house. From dfrye at UMICH.EDU Mon Nov 24 04:24:42 2003 From: dfrye at UMICH.EDU (Frye, David) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:24:42 -0500 Subject: Query: cuilote Message-ID: > A colleague of mine in transcribing an interview he did recently with a > 100-year-old man in Ozumba. At one point, his informant states that he "built a > house of zacate and cuilote." Can anyone shed light on either the materials or > the implied method of construction? Once more I recommend Francisco Santamaria's Diccionario de mejicanismos, which has the following on cuilote: Cuilote (?Del mex. quiyotl tallo de yerba? MOL.) m. Vara seca, m?s o menos guresa, que sirve para formar paredes de chozas, que luego se embarran, hacer setos, y tambi?n zarzos que en climas calientes sierven de cama. Note, Frances Karttunen's Analytical Dictionary has "cuilO-tl, stick/palo (T)." Molina has "quiyotl, talla de yerva o de verdura, &c." The latter has got to be the same as quiote, the name for the huge flowering stem of the maguey, which was used in San Luis Potosi (and probably elsewhere) for construction, and was the main framing post for jacales back when people still made them, not too long ago. The way jacales were built up in SLP was this: an A-frame was built of maguey quiotes; a roofing frame of the thinner lechuguilla quiotes was tied to the sides of the A-frame; and maguey leaves (pencas), softened in a fire, were woven into the roofing frame like roof tiles. I suppose if a pueblo had the right kind of grass to use for thatch, they would use that instead of the pencas de maguey, but the rest of the frame would probably be the same. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Nov 24 14:31:24 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:31:24 -0600 Subject: ARTISTIC Iformation. In-Reply-To: <1069614885.3fc1072588b9f@www.whitman.edu> Message-ID: At 01:14 PM 11/23/2003, you wrote: >of Nahuatl >names, Nahuatl places, Nahuatl miths, Nahuatl poems, etc. etc. A first place to begin is the Nahuatl web site: http://www.nahuatl.org/ Names: http://www.mrs.umn.edu/academic/history/Nahuatl/names.html Poems: http://www.mrs.umn.edu/academic/history/Nahuatl/poetry.htm Vocabularies and Dictionaries: http://www.mrs.umn.edu/academic/history/Nahuatl/sources.htm John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From butlerpe at PURDUE.EDU Wed Nov 26 18:59:01 2003 From: butlerpe at PURDUE.EDU (butlerpe at PURDUE.EDU) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:59:01 -0500 Subject: Query: cuilote In-Reply-To: <1069592339.3fc0af139ee57@webaccess.umail.ucsb.edu> Message-ID: I am no expert in Nahuatl, but I think I can help you. When I was little my grandfather would take me with him to work in his empty house lot. One of the things we did was to cut the tall grass, which he referred to as "zacate." I have heard the word cuilote before I think, but I don't know what it is. My grandmother says it's probably bamboo. I think he made a little chante or jacal with daub and wattle walls, except with no daub, and the thatch was zacate (tall grasses). Sorry I can't help more. Paul Diaz Butler From jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 26 21:05:04 2003 From: jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Amith) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:05:04 -0500 Subject: kwihlo:tl and a:kapilo:lhi Message-ID: In my notes from Ameyaltepec and Oapan, Guerrero, I have the following entries, the spelling is different from Tetelcingo in the /hl/ sequence, underlyingly {ll}. Three relevant defintions: kwihlo:tl (Ameyaltepec and Oapan) 1 : wattle: the rods made of tlapextli that are laid down horizontally in the frame of the roof of a thatched house and to which the thatching (palm or grass) is attached. The kwihlo:tl are placed on the inside of the house, attached to the a:kapilo:hli , before the thatching process begins. Once the thatching process begins, these same types of rods are laid on the outside part of the roof, on top of the thatching to hold it in place. ROOTS: kwi a:kapilo:hli (Ameyaltepec and Oapan) 1 (Am/Oa) : light beams that form part of a house; these run from the caballete down to the kontrasole:rah Am / tlaxipacholo:ni ROOT(S): a:ka, pil Semantic notes: The a:kapilo:hli , part of a thatched roof house (of grass, sakatl , or palm, so:ya:tl ), are thin rods of wood that descend vertically along the roof of the house from the caballete to the solera . They are distinct, however, from the cabezas . The a:kapilo:hli along with the kwihlo:tl form the major part of the house frame. tlapextli (Ameyaltepec and Oapan) 1 : bed (originally those made of the rods from the inside of the cactus known also as ?:rganoh para tlapextli but now extended to include all beds) 2 : Pachycereus militaris (Andat) D. R. Hunt, a type of cactus (to:motli ) the insides rods of which are stripped and cleaned to be used for various items, including beds -- Xne:xte:kili notlapech para nokal! | Cut down atlapextli cactus for my house (so that the rods can be used for the roof of my house)! 3 : (i:tlake:nyo ~) bed sheet(s) Jonathan D. Amith Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College 300 N. Washington St. Campus Box 412 Gettysburg, PA 17325 Tel. 717/338-1255 From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Wed Nov 26 21:56:44 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:56:44 -0500 Subject: Eagles and jaguars In-Reply-To: <1069873141.3fc4f7f5dc278@webmail.purdue.edu> Message-ID: As you recall, we were discussing eagle and jaguar warriors this past week. Joe provided abundant attestions of the former but could find none for the latter. But one turned up today in the Florentine, book 12: Cortez is talking to the Aztecs who have come to greet him at the shore of the ocean (How Cortez speaks Nahuatl is anybody's guess ;-), and uses the vocative to address his interlocutors: "quimilhui tla xihualhuian moceloquichtle, tla xihualhuian..." ocelotl + oquichtli = oceloquichtli Michael From david at GLOSTER.NET Fri Nov 28 21:25:10 2003 From: david at GLOSTER.NET (David Gloster) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:25:10 +0100 Subject: Query: cuilote Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: