From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Oct 2 13:38:15 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 08:38:15 -0500 Subject: L2 Nahuatl in Mexico Message-ID: Could you take a moment and let me know of the addresses of institutions that offer Nahuatl classes in Mexico in the summer, including any home stay programs? Tlaxtlahui, Michael McCafferty From idiez at MAC.COM Fri Oct 3 19:14:02 2003 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 13:14:02 -0600 Subject: mexicaneros Message-ID: Can anyone recommend works or articles done on the nahuatl spoken today by the mexicaneros of Durango? John Sullivan From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Oct 6 18:25:16 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 13:25:16 -0500 Subject: New Nahuatl article Message-ID: TI: Language Interaction in Nahuatl Discourse: The Influence of Spanish in Child and Adult Narratives AU: Francis, N; Gomez, PRN JN: Language Culture and Curriculum PD: 2003 VO: 16 NO: 1 PG: 1-17 John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From idiez at MAC.COM Mon Oct 6 23:08:36 2003 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:08:36 -0600 Subject: new nahuatl book Message-ID: Sullivan, John, paleografía, traducción y notas. 2003. Ytechcopa timoteilhuia yn tobicario (Acusamos a nuestro vicario). Pleito entre los naturales de Jalostotitlán y su sacerdote, 1618. Zapopan: Colegio de Jalisco. This is the first product in a larger research project on western colonial nahuatl (Michoacán, Colima, Jalisco, Nayarit, Zacatecas, and Durango). John Sullivan, Ph.D. Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco García Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 México +52 (492) 768-6048 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 803 bytes Desc: not available URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Oct 7 16:38:39 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 11:38:39 -0500 Subject: New book Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Sat Oct 25 01:55:00 2003 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:55:00 -0600 Subject: tlahtlacolli pilcintzi Message-ID: You know how sometimes you read interesting theory, but then when you run into it in real life, it's twice as good. Well this has to do with indians' respect for nature and what it gives us to eat. Today I was conversing with my friend, Delfina, about diminutive constructions in nahuatl, and she throws this at me: In her town, Tepecxitla, if you see some kernals of corn, or beans, or tortillas, or even water, that someone has dropped on the ground (or kitchen floor), you say (with respect and a caring attitude): Nahuatl: "tlahtlacolli pilcintzi (piletzi, pilatzi, piltlaxcaltzi), ¿quenque axcana inquipehpenah?" Spanish: "pobre maicito (o frijolito, o aguita, o tortillita), ¿por qué no lo recogen Uds? English: "poor little corn (or beans, or water, or tortilla), why don't you all pick it up?" And if there is some food that has spoiled, you say: Nahuatl: "tlahtlacolli piltlacualtzi, nictoyahuaz." Spanish: "pobre comidita, [desgraciadamente] la voy a tirar." English: "poor little food, [unfortunately] I'm going to throw it away." John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco García Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 México +52 (492) 768-6048 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Sat Oct 25 16:33:41 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:33:41 -0500 Subject: tlahtlacolli pilcintzi In-Reply-To: <3E4C9ACA-068E-11D8-93C5-003065C46A4A@mac.com> Message-ID: Tlaxtlahui, maestro. iuhquin mihtoa nican nochan auh tiquihtoah inglescopa. Michael On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 idiez at MAC.COM wrote: > You know how sometimes you read interesting theory, but then when you > run into it in real life, it's twice as good. Well this has to do with > indians' respect for nature and what it gives us to eat. Today I was > conversing with my friend, Delfina, about diminutive constructions in > nahuatl, and she throws this at me: > In her town, Tepecxitla, if you see some kernals of corn, or beans, or > tortillas, or even water, that someone has dropped on the ground (or > kitchen floor), you say (with respect and a caring attitude): > Nahuatl: "tlahtlacolli pilcintzi (piletzi, pilatzi, piltlaxcaltzi), > �quenque axcana inquipehpenah?" > Spanish: "pobre maicito (o frijolito, o aguita, o tortillita), �por qu� > no lo recogen Uds? > English: "poor little corn (or beans, or water, or tortilla), why don't > you all pick it up?" > And if there is some food that has spoiled, you say: > Nahuatl: "tlahtlacolli piltlacualtzi, nictoyahuaz." > Spanish: "pobre comidita, [desgraciadamente] la voy a tirar." > English: "poor little food, [unfortunately] I'm going to throw it away." > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor > Centro de Estudios Prospectivos > Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci�n Etnol�gica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Francisco Garc�a Salinas 604 > Colonia CNOP > Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 > M�xico > +52 (492) 768-6048 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > > "I'm trying to think but nothing happens" -Curly From noharm at WORLDONLINE.NL Sun Oct 26 12:21:35 2003 From: noharm at WORLDONLINE.NL (Harm Puite) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 13:21:35 +0100 Subject: tlahtlacolli pilcintzi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Michael, This interests me, living in affluence in Holland. Could you please tell what you say and at what occasions when something edable is spilled? Thanks in advance. Harm Puite From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Mon Oct 27 00:03:56 2003 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:03:56 -0500 Subject: Movie Trivia In-Reply-To: <3E4C9ACA-068E-11D8-93C5-003065C46A4A@mac.com> Message-ID: Dear List, Is anyone well acquainted with Marisa Sistach's film _Perfume de Violetas_ (2001)? I ask with an interest in clarifying a line of dialogue. In case there is, the issue is this: While walking to school after being raped the first time by Topi, between sobs Yessica disparages men, "cochinos, cerdos" etc. etc.; then the perspective changes and she begins muttering other things before arriving at school to lament the loss of her school supplies and bag. Among her mutterings, I thought I heard her say, "nitonto, ni. . ." I recently used this film without subtitles in a class and had to translate the dialogue myself. Since I may very well use it again, I am interested in clarifying this point, especially because it might offer a useful entry to talk about ethnic issues in Mexico City's urban migrations. thanks, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From idiez at MAC.COM Tue Oct 28 03:10:59 2003 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:10:59 -0600 Subject: tlecotl Message-ID: Does anybody know if "tlecotl", "raya o señar de fuego de pelota, o termino y plazo (Molina)", might have a glottal stop after the "e", and be related to "tlehco", "subir"? John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco García Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 México +52 (492) 768-6048 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Thu Oct 30 21:12:10 2003 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:12:10 -0500 Subject: Valades Message-ID: Fray Diego Valades, the Tlaxcalan mestizo, includes in his RHETORICA CHRISTIANA (1579) an illustration that includes an image for each letter of the alphabet to be used as a mnemonic technique. He first explains in Latin how this system works: the shape of the object is what establishes the connection. So, a compass or a ladder could be used for the letter A. He then provides another illustration in which he says he uses images of things of the Indians that serve to represent the letters, but he doesn't explain. And I don't see how any of the images that he includes resemble the letters. Evidently at least one scholar has claimed that these objects are meant to invoke Nahuatl words whose initial sound/letter coincides with the letter assigned to the object in the illustration. But, of course, this would not be consistent with the way he explained the technique which is supposed to be based on the shape of the image. It would seem that the only other solution would be to establish merely an arbitrary relationship between the letter and the image forming a kind of pictographic alphabet. Does anybody know if this issue has been resolved? Has anybody every attempted to identify which Nahuatl words the images might be attempting to invoke? If not, does anybody know what exactly the relationship is between the images and the letters in this diagram? If anyone is interested in try to solve this puzzle, I can send you a copy of the image that I scanned. Interestingly, some of the images are clearly related to the pictographic tradition of the codices. Valades was born in Tlaxcala, and from the way he talks, it would seem he was very familiar with the indigenous pictographic tradition. And if he produced the drawing for this "indigenous alphabet", the style of at least the first couple of images would seem to indicate this as well. I am aware that Samuel Edgerton discusses Valades in his recent book, which I have just requested through interlibrary loan. Does anyone know if he addresses this issue? Thanks, Galen From micc2 at COX.NET Fri Oct 31 20:32:46 2003 From: micc2 at COX.NET (Mario E. Aguilar) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:32:46 -0500 Subject: Valades Message-ID: Plesae send me a cpoy of this image. I would like to take a try at it! thanks! mario e. aguilar www.mexicayotl.org > > From: Galen Brokaw > Date: 2003/10/30 Thu PM 04:12:10 EST > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Valades > > Fray Diego Valades, the Tlaxcalan mestizo, includes in his RHETORICA > CHRISTIANA (1579) an illustration that includes an image for each letter > of the alphabet to be used as a mnemonic technique. He first explains in > Latin how this system works: the shape of the object is what establishes > the connection. So, a compass or a ladder could be used for the letter > A. He then provides another illustration in which he says he uses images > of things of the Indians that serve to represent the letters, but he > doesn't explain. And I don't see how any of the images that he includes > resemble the letters. Evidently at least one scholar has claimed that > these objects are meant to invoke Nahuatl words whose initial > sound/letter coincides with the letter assigned to the object in the > illustration. But, of course, this would not be consistent with the way > he explained the technique which is supposed to be based on the shape of > the image. It would seem that the only other solution would be to > establish merely an arbitrary relationship between the letter and the > image forming a kind of pictographic alphabet. Does anybody know if this > issue has been resolved? Has anybody every attempted to identify which > Nahuatl words the images might be attempting to invoke? If not, does > anybody know what exactly the relationship is between the images and the > letters in this diagram? > If anyone is interested in try to solve this puzzle, I can send you a > copy of the image that I scanned. > Interestingly, some of the images are clearly related to the > pictographic tradition of the codices. Valades was born in Tlaxcala, and > from the way he talks, it would seem he was very familiar with the > indigenous pictographic tradition. And if he produced the drawing for > this "indigenous alphabet", the style of at least the first couple of > images would seem to indicate this as well. > I am aware that Samuel Edgerton discusses Valades in his recent book, > which I have just requested through interlibrary loan. Does anyone know > if he addresses this issue? > Thanks, > Galen > From robc at CSUFRESNO.EDU Fri Oct 31 23:57:31 2003 From: robc at CSUFRESNO.EDU (John D. Comegys) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:57:31 -0800 Subject: Valades image Message-ID: I think I might know of the image for one letter. Please send the image. Thanks. John Comegys robc at csufresno.edu "" wrote: > Plesae send me a cpoy of this image. I would like to take a try at it! > > thanks! > > mario e. aguilar > www.mexicayotl.org > > > > > From: Galen Brokaw > > Date: 2003/10/30 Thu PM 04:12:10 EST > > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > > Subject: Valades > > > > Fray Diego Valades, the Tlaxcalan mestizo, includes in his RHETORICA > > CHRISTIANA (1579) an illustration that includes an image for each letter > > of the alphabet to be used as a mnemonic technique. He first explains in > > Latin how this system works: the shape of the object is what establishes > > the connection. So, a compass or a ladder could be used for the letter > > A. He then provides another illustration in which he says he uses images > > of things of the Indians that serve to represent the letters, but he > > doesn't explain. And I don't see how any of the images that he includes > > resemble the letters. Evidently at least one scholar has claimed that > > these objects are meant to invoke Nahuatl words whose initial > > sound/letter coincides with the letter assigned to the object in the > > illustration. But, of course, this would not be consistent with the way > > he explained the technique which is supposed to be based on the shape of > > the image. It would seem that the only other solution would be to > > establish merely an arbitrary relationship between the letter and the > > image forming a kind of pictographic alphabet. Does anybody know if this > > issue has been resolved? Has anybody every attempted to identify which > > Nahuatl words the images might be attempting to invoke? If not, does > > anybody know what exactly the relationship is between the images and the > > letters in this diagram? > > If anyone is interested in try to solve this puzzle, I can send you a > > copy of the image that I scanned. > > Interestingly, some of the images are clearly related to the > > pictographic tradition of the codices. Valades was born in Tlaxcala, and > > from the way he talks, it would seem he was very familiar with the > > indigenous pictographic tradition. And if he produced the drawing for > > this "indigenous alphabet", the style of at least the first couple of > > images would seem to indicate this as well. > > I am aware that Samuel Edgerton discusses Valades in his recent book, > > which I have just requested through interlibrary loan. Does anyone know > > if he addresses this issue? > > Thanks, > > Galen > > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Oct 2 13:38:15 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 08:38:15 -0500 Subject: L2 Nahuatl in Mexico Message-ID: Could you take a moment and let me know of the addresses of institutions that offer Nahuatl classes in Mexico in the summer, including any home stay programs? Tlaxtlahui, Michael McCafferty From idiez at MAC.COM Fri Oct 3 19:14:02 2003 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 13:14:02 -0600 Subject: mexicaneros Message-ID: Can anyone recommend works or articles done on the nahuatl spoken today by the mexicaneros of Durango? John Sullivan From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Oct 6 18:25:16 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 13:25:16 -0500 Subject: New Nahuatl article Message-ID: TI: Language Interaction in Nahuatl Discourse: The Influence of Spanish in Child and Adult Narratives AU: Francis, N; Gomez, PRN JN: Language Culture and Curriculum PD: 2003 VO: 16 NO: 1 PG: 1-17 John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From idiez at MAC.COM Mon Oct 6 23:08:36 2003 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:08:36 -0600 Subject: new nahuatl book Message-ID: Sullivan, John, paleograf?a, traducci?n y notas. 2003. Ytechcopa timoteilhuia yn tobicario (Acusamos a nuestro vicario). Pleito entre los naturales de Jalostotitl?n y su sacerdote, 1618. Zapopan: Colegio de Jalisco. This is the first product in a larger research project on western colonial nahuatl (Michoac?n, Colima, Jalisco, Nayarit, Zacatecas, and Durango). John Sullivan, Ph.D. Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco Garc?a Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 M?xico +52 (492) 768-6048 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 803 bytes Desc: not available URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Oct 7 16:38:39 2003 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 11:38:39 -0500 Subject: New book Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Sat Oct 25 01:55:00 2003 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:55:00 -0600 Subject: tlahtlacolli pilcintzi Message-ID: You know how sometimes you read interesting theory, but then when you run into it in real life, it's twice as good. Well this has to do with indians' respect for nature and what it gives us to eat. Today I was conversing with my friend, Delfina, about diminutive constructions in nahuatl, and she throws this at me: In her town, Tepecxitla, if you see some kernals of corn, or beans, or tortillas, or even water, that someone has dropped on the ground (or kitchen floor), you say (with respect and a caring attitude): Nahuatl: "tlahtlacolli pilcintzi (piletzi, pilatzi, piltlaxcaltzi), ?quenque axcana inquipehpenah?" Spanish: "pobre maicito (o frijolito, o aguita, o tortillita), ?por qu? no lo recogen Uds? English: "poor little corn (or beans, or water, or tortilla), why don't you all pick it up?" And if there is some food that has spoiled, you say: Nahuatl: "tlahtlacolli piltlacualtzi, nictoyahuaz." Spanish: "pobre comidita, [desgraciadamente] la voy a tirar." English: "poor little food, [unfortunately] I'm going to throw it away." John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco Garc?a Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 M?xico +52 (492) 768-6048 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Sat Oct 25 16:33:41 2003 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:33:41 -0500 Subject: tlahtlacolli pilcintzi In-Reply-To: <3E4C9ACA-068E-11D8-93C5-003065C46A4A@mac.com> Message-ID: Tlaxtlahui, maestro. iuhquin mihtoa nican nochan auh tiquihtoah inglescopa. Michael On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 idiez at MAC.COM wrote: > You know how sometimes you read interesting theory, but then when you > run into it in real life, it's twice as good. Well this has to do with > indians' respect for nature and what it gives us to eat. Today I was > conversing with my friend, Delfina, about diminutive constructions in > nahuatl, and she throws this at me: > In her town, Tepecxitla, if you see some kernals of corn, or beans, or > tortillas, or even water, that someone has dropped on the ground (or > kitchen floor), you say (with respect and a caring attitude): > Nahuatl: "tlahtlacolli pilcintzi (piletzi, pilatzi, piltlaxcaltzi), > ?quenque axcana inquipehpenah?" > Spanish: "pobre maicito (o frijolito, o aguita, o tortillita), ?por qu? > no lo recogen Uds? > English: "poor little corn (or beans, or water, or tortilla), why don't > you all pick it up?" > And if there is some food that has spoiled, you say: > Nahuatl: "tlahtlacolli piltlacualtzi, nictoyahuaz." > Spanish: "pobre comidita, [desgraciadamente] la voy a tirar." > English: "poor little food, [unfortunately] I'm going to throw it away." > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor > Centro de Estudios Prospectivos > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Francisco Garc?a Salinas 604 > Colonia CNOP > Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 > M?xico > +52 (492) 768-6048 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > > "I'm trying to think but nothing happens" -Curly From noharm at WORLDONLINE.NL Sun Oct 26 12:21:35 2003 From: noharm at WORLDONLINE.NL (Harm Puite) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 13:21:35 +0100 Subject: tlahtlacolli pilcintzi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Michael, This interests me, living in affluence in Holland. Could you please tell what you say and at what occasions when something edable is spilled? Thanks in advance. Harm Puite From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Mon Oct 27 00:03:56 2003 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:03:56 -0500 Subject: Movie Trivia In-Reply-To: <3E4C9ACA-068E-11D8-93C5-003065C46A4A@mac.com> Message-ID: Dear List, Is anyone well acquainted with Marisa Sistach's film _Perfume de Violetas_ (2001)? I ask with an interest in clarifying a line of dialogue. In case there is, the issue is this: While walking to school after being raped the first time by Topi, between sobs Yessica disparages men, "cochinos, cerdos" etc. etc.; then the perspective changes and she begins muttering other things before arriving at school to lament the loss of her school supplies and bag. Among her mutterings, I thought I heard her say, "nitonto, ni. . ." I recently used this film without subtitles in a class and had to translate the dialogue myself. Since I may very well use it again, I am interested in clarifying this point, especially because it might offer a useful entry to talk about ethnic issues in Mexico City's urban migrations. thanks, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From idiez at MAC.COM Tue Oct 28 03:10:59 2003 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:10:59 -0600 Subject: tlecotl Message-ID: Does anybody know if "tlecotl", "raya o se?ar de fuego de pelota, o termino y plazo (Molina)", might have a glottal stop after the "e", and be related to "tlehco", "subir"? John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco Garc?a Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 M?xico +52 (492) 768-6048 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Thu Oct 30 21:12:10 2003 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:12:10 -0500 Subject: Valades Message-ID: Fray Diego Valades, the Tlaxcalan mestizo, includes in his RHETORICA CHRISTIANA (1579) an illustration that includes an image for each letter of the alphabet to be used as a mnemonic technique. He first explains in Latin how this system works: the shape of the object is what establishes the connection. So, a compass or a ladder could be used for the letter A. He then provides another illustration in which he says he uses images of things of the Indians that serve to represent the letters, but he doesn't explain. And I don't see how any of the images that he includes resemble the letters. Evidently at least one scholar has claimed that these objects are meant to invoke Nahuatl words whose initial sound/letter coincides with the letter assigned to the object in the illustration. But, of course, this would not be consistent with the way he explained the technique which is supposed to be based on the shape of the image. It would seem that the only other solution would be to establish merely an arbitrary relationship between the letter and the image forming a kind of pictographic alphabet. Does anybody know if this issue has been resolved? Has anybody every attempted to identify which Nahuatl words the images might be attempting to invoke? If not, does anybody know what exactly the relationship is between the images and the letters in this diagram? If anyone is interested in try to solve this puzzle, I can send you a copy of the image that I scanned. Interestingly, some of the images are clearly related to the pictographic tradition of the codices. Valades was born in Tlaxcala, and from the way he talks, it would seem he was very familiar with the indigenous pictographic tradition. And if he produced the drawing for this "indigenous alphabet", the style of at least the first couple of images would seem to indicate this as well. I am aware that Samuel Edgerton discusses Valades in his recent book, which I have just requested through interlibrary loan. Does anyone know if he addresses this issue? Thanks, Galen From micc2 at COX.NET Fri Oct 31 20:32:46 2003 From: micc2 at COX.NET (Mario E. Aguilar) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:32:46 -0500 Subject: Valades Message-ID: Plesae send me a cpoy of this image. I would like to take a try at it! thanks! mario e. aguilar www.mexicayotl.org > > From: Galen Brokaw > Date: 2003/10/30 Thu PM 04:12:10 EST > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Valades > > Fray Diego Valades, the Tlaxcalan mestizo, includes in his RHETORICA > CHRISTIANA (1579) an illustration that includes an image for each letter > of the alphabet to be used as a mnemonic technique. He first explains in > Latin how this system works: the shape of the object is what establishes > the connection. So, a compass or a ladder could be used for the letter > A. He then provides another illustration in which he says he uses images > of things of the Indians that serve to represent the letters, but he > doesn't explain. And I don't see how any of the images that he includes > resemble the letters. Evidently at least one scholar has claimed that > these objects are meant to invoke Nahuatl words whose initial > sound/letter coincides with the letter assigned to the object in the > illustration. But, of course, this would not be consistent with the way > he explained the technique which is supposed to be based on the shape of > the image. It would seem that the only other solution would be to > establish merely an arbitrary relationship between the letter and the > image forming a kind of pictographic alphabet. Does anybody know if this > issue has been resolved? Has anybody every attempted to identify which > Nahuatl words the images might be attempting to invoke? If not, does > anybody know what exactly the relationship is between the images and the > letters in this diagram? > If anyone is interested in try to solve this puzzle, I can send you a > copy of the image that I scanned. > Interestingly, some of the images are clearly related to the > pictographic tradition of the codices. Valades was born in Tlaxcala, and > from the way he talks, it would seem he was very familiar with the > indigenous pictographic tradition. And if he produced the drawing for > this "indigenous alphabet", the style of at least the first couple of > images would seem to indicate this as well. > I am aware that Samuel Edgerton discusses Valades in his recent book, > which I have just requested through interlibrary loan. Does anyone know > if he addresses this issue? > Thanks, > Galen > From robc at CSUFRESNO.EDU Fri Oct 31 23:57:31 2003 From: robc at CSUFRESNO.EDU (John D. Comegys) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:57:31 -0800 Subject: Valades image Message-ID: I think I might know of the image for one letter. Please send the image. Thanks. John Comegys robc at csufresno.edu "" wrote: > Plesae send me a cpoy of this image. I would like to take a try at it! > > thanks! > > mario e. aguilar > www.mexicayotl.org > > > > > From: Galen Brokaw > > Date: 2003/10/30 Thu PM 04:12:10 EST > > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > > Subject: Valades > > > > Fray Diego Valades, the Tlaxcalan mestizo, includes in his RHETORICA > > CHRISTIANA (1579) an illustration that includes an image for each letter > > of the alphabet to be used as a mnemonic technique. He first explains in > > Latin how this system works: the shape of the object is what establishes > > the connection. So, a compass or a ladder could be used for the letter > > A. He then provides another illustration in which he says he uses images > > of things of the Indians that serve to represent the letters, but he > > doesn't explain. And I don't see how any of the images that he includes > > resemble the letters. Evidently at least one scholar has claimed that > > these objects are meant to invoke Nahuatl words whose initial > > sound/letter coincides with the letter assigned to the object in the > > illustration. But, of course, this would not be consistent with the way > > he explained the technique which is supposed to be based on the shape of > > the image. It would seem that the only other solution would be to > > establish merely an arbitrary relationship between the letter and the > > image forming a kind of pictographic alphabet. Does anybody know if this > > issue has been resolved? Has anybody every attempted to identify which > > Nahuatl words the images might be attempting to invoke? If not, does > > anybody know what exactly the relationship is between the images and the > > letters in this diagram? > > If anyone is interested in try to solve this puzzle, I can send you a > > copy of the image that I scanned. > > Interestingly, some of the images are clearly related to the > > pictographic tradition of the codices. Valades was born in Tlaxcala, and > > from the way he talks, it would seem he was very familiar with the > > indigenous pictographic tradition. And if he produced the drawing for > > this "indigenous alphabet", the style of at least the first couple of > > images would seem to indicate this as well. > > I am aware that Samuel Edgerton discusses Valades in his recent book, > > which I have just requested through interlibrary loan. Does anyone know > > if he addresses this issue? > > Thanks, > > Galen > >