From butlerpe at PURDUE.EDU Tue Apr 6 16:24:07 2004 From: butlerpe at PURDUE.EDU (butlerpe at PURDUE.EDU) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 11:24:07 -0500 Subject: Greetings In-Reply-To: <1071250441.3fd9fc092a2dd@www.mail.yale.edu> Message-ID: Professor Amith, My name is Paul Butler and I have applied to the Nahuatl summer course that you are teaching in San Agustin Oapan. I heard about this course from your email that you sent to the Nahuatl mailing list. I graduated from Purdue University, West Lafayette in December of 2003 with a major in Anthropology and a minor in Spanish. I have already been in contact with Beatriz Riefkohl at Yale and she told me about the rustic conditions in San Agustin. I told her that it would not be a problem for me as my family lives in a small village as well, Salinas Victoria, which is about two hours away from Monterrey, Nuevo Leon. I have studied in Mexico before, in the D.F. and I have travelled extensively in Mexico and Guatemala. I am interested in taking this course because I plan to go to law school and, later, become a human rights activist. I have always felt a deep respect for the indigenous peoples of the Americas, especially in Mexico because I feel they are the most important part of who Mexicans are today culturally and socially. This is just a little bit about me, but I hope to be accepted to the program in order to meet my goals of being able to help the indigenous peoples of Mexico who are so often overlooked by both the government and the public. I was asked to send you an email so you would be familiar with me when Yale Summer Programs contacts you to ask if you have heard of me. I hope to meet you this summer, and thank you for teaching a course that I consider to be extrememly valuable. Thank you, Paul Butler Diaz From jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU Tue Apr 6 16:43:34 2004 From: jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Amith) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 12:43:34 -0400 Subject: Greetings In-Reply-To: <1081268647.4072d9a7a703f@webmail.purdue.edu> Message-ID: Dear Paul (if I may), Thank you so much for your interest and for your email. Your commitment is fantastic, maybe there is even the possibility of doing some community work if you are interested. Anyway, I would like to speak by phone sometime. Perhaps next week you could call (after the 15th) and we could chat. If I´m not home, please leave a message. 717-338-1255 Best, Jonathan Quoting butlerpe at PURDUE.EDU: > Professor Amith, > My name is Paul Butler and I have applied to the Nahuatl summer > course that > you are teaching in San Agustin Oapan. I heard about this course > from your > email that you sent to the Nahuatl mailing list. I graduated from > Purdue > University, West Lafayette in December of 2003 with a major in > Anthropology > and a minor in Spanish. I have already been in contact with Beatriz > Riefkohl > at Yale and she told me about the rustic conditions in San Agustin. > I told > her that it would not be a problem for me as my family lives in a > small > village as well, Salinas Victoria, which is about two hours away > from > Monterrey, Nuevo Leon. I have studied in Mexico before, in the D.F. > and I > have travelled extensively in Mexico and Guatemala. I am interested > in taking > this course because I plan to go to law school and, later, become a > human > rights activist. I have always felt a deep respect for the > indigenous peoples > of the Americas, especially in Mexico because I feel they are the > most > important part of who Mexicans are today culturally and socially. > This is > just a little bit about me, but I hope to be accepted to the program > in order > to meet my goals of being able to help the indigenous peoples of > Mexico who > are so often overlooked by both the government and the public. I was > asked to > send you an email so you would be familiar with me when Yale Summer > Programs > contacts you to ask if you have heard of me. I hope to meet you this > summer, > and thank you for teaching a course that I consider to be extrememly > valuable. > Thank you, > Paul Butler > Diaz > Jonathan D. Amith Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College 300 N. Washington St. Campus Box 412 Gettysburg, PA 17325 Tel. 717/338-1255 From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Apr 12 14:29:15 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 09:29:15 -0500 Subject: Ethnohistory Society Message-ID: Subject: American Society for Ethnohistory call for papers 2004 Annual Meeting American Society for Ethnohistory Holiday Inn, Chicago Mart Plaza October 27-30, 2004 Continuing Encounters:Across Space/Through time The Newberry Library's D'Arcy McNickle Center for American Indian History is pleased to host the 2004 Annual Meeting of the American Society for Ethnohistory. The theme of this year's conference, "Continuing Encounters: Across Space/Through Time," focuses attention on a process that has been integral to the evolution of ethnohistorical scholarship over the course of the past decade. Employed initially by scholars whose work emphasized the contact, colonial, and early national periods, these explorations detailed the consequences of 1492 in terms of complex cultural, social, spiritual, political, economic, microbial, epidemiological, and ideational exchanges between Europeans and indigenous peoples. Later works have shown that encounters are neither restricted to these categories, nor bounded by space or time. They are global processes. They preceded 1492. They continue. We especially invite proposals that speak to and think creatively about this year's theme of encounters and the myriad forms they have taken across space and through time. But we also welcome those covering other themes as well. Individuals may submit independently. Complete panels are preferred. The deadline for applications is June 15, 2004. We are strongly encouraging electronic submissions. All of the necessary forms will be made accessible through the American Society for Ethnohistory's website: http://ethnohistory.org. Completed forms can then be emailed directly as Microsoft Word attachments to mcnickle at newberry.org. For those submitting proposals via U.S. Mail, please send panel/paper abstracts, registration fees, application cover letter, and curriculum vitae to: ASE Program Committee c/o D'Arcy McNickle Center for American Indian History The Newberry Library 60 West Walton Street Chicago, Illinois 60610 For additional information, email mcnickle at newberry.org or call (312) 255-3564. Conference details will be updated regularly at http://ethnohistory.org From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Wed Apr 14 21:44:18 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 16:44:18 -0500 Subject: historical pigs In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20031212105049.01e40e28@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: As I understand it, the term "coyametl" was applied to a peccary. Was this term used for both the collared and the white-lipped peccary? In addition, was the term "pitzotl" also applied to a peccary or was it used only for the domesticated, European-introduced pig, the Sus variety? tlaxtlahui, Michael From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM Tue Apr 20 15:01:07 2004 From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:01:07 +0200 Subject: three doubts Message-ID: I have consulted a number of books, but I am still confused about the following and would greatly appreciate enlightment: (1) Plural reverential forms Should one add the plural suffix to a noun and then the singular reverential? NANTINTZIN? or plural suffix and plural reverential? NANTINTZITZIN? or no plural suffix and just plural reverential? NANTZITZIN? 2) Stems Is there a rule saying that whenever there are two vowels at the end of a stem (i.e. TOCAITL, MAITL, TEMACHTIANI) one is to delete the last vowel (TOCA, MA, TEMACHTI) ? 3) Endings Did nouns like CHICHI once had a traditional ending? (TL, TLI, LI, IN). Is the stem "chich"? (chichitontli or chichtontli?) Thank you for your help. Susana Moraleda From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Apr 20 15:46:43 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:46:43 -0500 Subject: three doubts In-Reply-To: <00ca01c426ea$0f402000$7794d351@mexico> Message-ID: At 10:01 AM 4/20/2004, you wrote: >Is there a rule saying that whenever there are two vowels at the end of a >stem (i.e. TOCAITL, MAITL, TEMACHTIANI) one is to delete the last vowel >(TOCA, MA, TEMACHTI) ? Unfortunately, -temachtiani- comes ultimately from the verb stem -mati- to know. It is an example of the customary form of the verb. After -mati- one then constructs the causative form -machtia- to cause some one to know, or to teach. Then one constructs the customary by adding the indefinite personal object -te- meaning someone, and the -ni- suffix of the customary, in order to get temachtiani, one who customarily causes someone to know something, that is a teacher. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Apr 20 15:48:25 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:48:25 -0500 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 07:57:29 -0400 Reply-To: Archaeology Institute Sender: Pre-Columbian History From: Archaeology Institute Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU Dear Colleagues, I have just reviewed the Discovery video titled "Unsolved History: Aztec Temple." Among the conclusions drawn via experimentation with a synthetic cadaver (of the sort created for military experimentation to test the effects of minefield damage to human tissue) is that it takes between 17 and 20 seconds to extract a human heart from below the sternum with a flint knife. A professor from the University of Cincinnati, Barry Isaac, has estimated that it would take approximately 2 minutes per sacrifice to position the captive, extract the heart, and tumble the captive down the steps of the Templo Mayor. By his calculations, at 2 minutes per captive, 30 men or women could have been sacrificed at each altar stone per hour. He concludes that in a 10 hour day 300 captives could be dispatched, and over a four day period (as in the mass sacrifice of 1487) some 1,200 captives were dispatched at each temple or altar site. Given the projected 19 altars used from throughout the city of Tenochtitlan, Professor Isaac concludes that 1200 multiplied by 19 altars comes to about 22,800. It is this figure that approximates the 20,000 captive offerings that Francis Berdan cites from the Codex Telleriano-Remensis. Berdan, prior to the experiments in question, in turn concluded that it would not have been possible to excise a beating human heart in anything under 5 minutes. If, in fact, as the experiment demonstrated, one attempts to cut through the sternum with a flint or chert knife, then it is likely that the effort will fail. On the other hand, by slicing or cutting the area below the sternum from end to end, one can in fact excise a still beating heart within the time frame noted. Ultimately, the experiment demonstrated that such an act could have been performed in about 20 seconds...while of course, a well experienced executioner may have performed the feat in less time. Any thoughts on this matter would be appreciated, particularly as I am currently in the throes of considering perspectives that both advocate the idea that mass human sacrifice was, or was not, the reality of the Mexica Aztec and other Mesoamerican civilizations. Best Regards, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Tue Apr 20 17:15:52 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 12:15:52 -0500 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040420104753.0203d110@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: F. Schwaller and all, Luis Reyes at times questioned the accuracy of post-conquest descriptions of sacrifice. His main point was that Mesoamerican ideas of sacrifice were highly symbolic and malleable making simple equations of the sacrifice of a person and death problematic. He cited, in particular, two documents he had read. One related events of child sacrifice in the lower Puebla-Mixteca region that struck him as curious because at one point it stated that the children sacrificed the previous year were not sacrificed the following year. Another, I think from the same region, related the sacrifice of a captive in a new fire ceremony. In this case, the captive who lent his chest for the ceremony unexpectedly died and restorative damages had to be paid to his home community. Similar circumstances can be found in many communities across Mexico where people profess that bridges and other works are built over "skulls and bones," in reference to the labor invested in them. He suggested that a close reading of Tezozomoc's account of the massive sacrifices of captives at the Templo Mayor gave a similar impression and that the three figures arriving there in the Telleriano-Remensis might represent corps of laborers instead of heart offerings. He published an argument along these lines in an edited volume whose citation escapes at the moment. The Tlaxcalan chronicler, Zapata y Mendoza who worked from older sources, however, plainly insists that, among zapotecas, tlapanecas, huextzincas and tziuhcohuacas, 88,400 macehualli "died" at the 1487 dedication. Regarding physiology, if the heart can be removed in 20 seconds, in what time does a person sans heart become brain dead? best, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From institute at CSUMB.EDU Tue Apr 20 17:16:06 2004 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:16:06 -0700 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: Thank you for your message. I will respond as soon as possible. If you have an urgent matter that you would like to communicate, please contact Lilly Martinez by voice mail at 831-582-4364. From zorrah at ATT.NET Tue Apr 20 17:30:57 2004 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:30:57 +0000 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: This message (below) was sent to the entire list, although it was addressed to "Colleagues." So, I'm going to respond anyway even though some may not consider me "a colleague." Question: Can you please operationalize what you mean by the "reality of the Mexica Aztec and other Mesoamerican civilizations" in your final sentence? Are you trying to reconstruct what you think was the reality of the Mexica Aztec or what exactly do you mean? Also, how does this "reality" connect with results from an experiment on a synthetic human cadever? How can the results of this experiment and a citation from Francis Berdan - provide anyone with a credible representation of the "reality of the Mexica Aztec"? What is this reality based on - theory? Thanks for your response, citlalin xochime Nahuatl Tlahtolkalli http://nahuatl.info/nahuatl.htm > Dear Colleagues, > > I have just reviewed the Discovery video titled "Unsolved > History: Aztec Temple." Among the conclusions drawn via > experimentation with a synthetic cadaver (of the sort created for > military experimentation to test the effects of minefield damage > to human tissue) is that it takes between 17 and 20 seconds to > extract a human heart from below the sternum with a flint knife. > > A professor from the University of Cincinnati, Barry > Isaac, has estimated that it would take approximately 2 minutes > per sacrifice to position the captive, extract the heart, and > tumble the captive down the steps of the Templo Mayor. By his > calculations, at 2 minutes per captive, 30 men or women could > have been sacrificed at each altar stone per hour. He concludes > that in a 10 hour day 300 captives could be dispatched, and over > a four day period (as in the mass sacrifice of 1487) some 1,200 > captives were dispatched at each temple or altar site. > > Given the projected 19 altars used from throughout the > city of Tenochtitlan, Professor Isaac concludes that 1200 > multiplied by 19 altars comes to about 22,800. It is this figure > that approximates the 20,000 captive offerings that Francis > Berdan cites from the Codex Telleriano-Remensis. Berdan, prior > to the experiments in question, in turn concluded that it would > not have been possible to excise a beating human heart in anything > under 5 minutes. If, in fact, as the experiment demonstrated, one > attempts to cut through the sternum with a flint or chert knife, > then it is likely that the effort will fail. On the other hand, > by slicing or cutting the area below the sternum from end to end, > one can in fact excise a still beating heart within the time frame > noted. > > Ultimately, the experiment demonstrated that such an act > could have been performed in about 20 seconds...while of course, > a well experienced executioner may have performed the feat in > less time. Any thoughts on this matter would be appreciated, > particularly as I am currently in the throes of considering > perspectives that both advocate the idea that mass human > sacrifice was, or was not, the reality of the Mexica Aztec and > other Mesoamerican civilizations. > > Best Regards, > > Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director > Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization > Social and Behavioral Sciences > California State University Monterey Bay > 100 Campus Center > Seaside, California 93955-8001 > > Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu > Voice: 831-582-3760 > Fax: 831-582-3566 > http://archaeology.csumb.edu > http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Tue Apr 20 17:39:00 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 12:39:00 -0500 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040420104753.0203d110@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Dear List, I forgot to drop in a couple random thoughts that passed my mind this morning. Question: Anyone have an idea of what the pe: of peyotl refers to? Comment: Tzopilotl means "picadura colgada" best, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From micc2 at COX.NET Tue Apr 20 18:04:02 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:04:02 -0700 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040420104753.0203d110@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Just a note from the sidelines from an amateur of all things Mexican, Before anyone jumps to an ultimate conclusion on the number of sacrificial offerings carried out by the Mexi'ca we need to keep in mind: 1. Any number reported by the Spanish for European audiences must be looked up with several large grains of salt Just like Weapons of mass destruction, numbers of sacrificed people can be mirages in the desert, created for political excuses of conquest. 2. Since the Mexi'ca were not very nice to their neighbor's, and since their neighbors eventually exacted revenge by siding with the Spanish invaders, their reports on the number of victims are also suspect. NOW PLEASE REMEMBER THAT I AM NOT A NEO-MEXI'CA REVISIONIST WHO DENIES ANY SACRIFICES! The archeological evidence does indeed show human sacrifice throughout the entire pre-Columbian period. I merely propose that the numbers have been greatly exaggerated by people who would benefit from such "facts" (such as Christian clergy, gold seeking mercenaries, and royal personages bent on extending their domains and tax basis.... 3. the disposal of so many bodies. where are there skeletal remains today? How was a massive case of rooting corpses dealt with? No one can surely believe that EVERYONE sacrificed was eaten as ritual communion? 4. The Otomi and nahuas of today still have ritual sacrifices of PAPER people as part of their pre-Columbian heritage. I theorize that the "Thousands of victims" were in large part paper effigies ritually bled on and then burnt as offerings. For a view of how the nahua of today's Huasteca use these please see: http://www.deneenstreet.com/Mexico/moy1.htm There is also the book "The Shaman's Touch" "Be careful of the propaganda you believe, it might take you to war a half a globe away to die..." respectfully mario e. aguilar www.mexicayotl.org John F. Schwaller wrote: > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 07:57:29 -0400 > Reply-To: Archaeology Institute > Sender: Pre-Columbian History > From: Archaeology Institute > Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality > To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU > > > Dear Colleagues, > > I have just reviewed the Discovery video titled "Unsolved > History: Aztec Temple." Among the conclusions drawn via > experimentation with a synthetic cadaver (of the sort created for > military experimentation to test the effects of minefield damage > to human tissue) is that it takes between 17 and 20 seconds to > extract a human heart from below the sternum with a flint knife. > > A professor from the University of Cincinnati, Barry > Isaac, has estimated that it would take approximately 2 minutes > per sacrifice to position the captive, extract the heart, and > tumble the captive down the steps of the Templo Mayor. By his > calculations, at 2 minutes per captive, 30 men or women could > have been sacrificed at each altar stone per hour. He concludes > that in a 10 hour day 300 captives could be dispatched, and over > a four day period (as in the mass sacrifice of 1487) some 1,200 > captives were dispatched at each temple or altar site. > > Given the projected 19 altars used from throughout the > city of Tenochtitlan, Professor Isaac concludes that 1200 > multiplied by 19 altars comes to about 22,800. It is this figure > that approximates the 20,000 captive offerings that Francis > Berdan cites from the Codex Telleriano-Remensis. Berdan, prior > to the experiments in question, in turn concluded that it would > not have been possible to excise a beating human heart in anything > under 5 minutes. If, in fact, as the experiment demonstrated, one > attempts to cut through the sternum with a flint or chert knife, > then it is likely that the effort will fail. On the other hand, > by slicing or cutting the area below the sternum from end to end, > one can in fact excise a still beating heart within the time frame > noted. > > Ultimately, the experiment demonstrated that such an act > could have been performed in about 20 seconds...while of course, > a well experienced executioner may have performed the feat in > less time. Any thoughts on this matter would be appreciated, > particularly as I am currently in the throes of considering > perspectives that both advocate the idea that mass human > sacrifice was, or was not, the reality of the Mexica Aztec and > other Mesoamerican civilizations. > > Best Regards, > > Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director > Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization > Social and Behavioral Sciences > California State University Monterey Bay > 100 Campus Center > Seaside, California 93955-8001 > > Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu > Voice: 831-582-3760 > Fax: 831-582-3566 > http://archaeology.csumb.edu > http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Tue Apr 20 18:23:27 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 12:23:27 -0600 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: >From what time were the two documents you mention below? Richley >>> mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU 04/20 11:15 AM >>> F. Schwaller and all, Luis Reyes at times questioned the accuracy of post-conquest descriptions of sacrifice. His main point was that Mesoamerican ideas of sacrifice were highly symbolic and malleable making simple equations of the sacrifice of a person and death problematic. He cited, in particular, two documents he had read. One related events of child sacrifice in the lower Puebla-Mixteca region that struck him as curious because at one point it stated that the children sacrificed the previous year were not sacrificed the following year. Another, I think from the same region, related the sacrifice of a captive in a new fire ceremony. In this case, the captive who lent his chest for the ceremony unexpectedly died and restorative damages had to be paid to his home community. Similar circumstances can be found in many communities across Mexico where people profess that bridges and other works are built over "skulls and bones," in reference to the labor invested in them. He suggested that a close reading of Tezozomoc's account of the massive sacrifices of captives at the Templo Mayor gave a similar impression and that the three figures arriving there in the Telleriano-Remensis might represent corps of laborers instead of heart offerings. He published an argument along these lines in an edited volume whose citation escapes at the moment. The Tlaxcalan chronicler, Zapata y Mendoza who worked from older sources, however, plainly insists that, among zapotecas, tlapanecas, huextzincas and tziuhcohuacas, 88,400 macehualli "died" at the 1487 dedication. Regarding physiology, if the heart can be removed in 20 seconds, in what time does a person sans heart become brain dead? best, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Tue Apr 20 18:28:03 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 12:28:03 -0600 Subject: Misc. Message-ID: Andrews associates it with the verb peyo:-ni, 'to glimmer, to glow'. Richley >>> mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU 04/20 11:39 AM >>> Dear List, I forgot to drop in a couple random thoughts that passed my mind this morning. Question: Anyone have an idea of what the pe: of peyotl refers to? Comment: Tzopilotl means "picadura colgada" best, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Apr 20 18:50:59 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:50:59 -0500 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: <042020041730.4006.40855E510001CFC000000FA62161243646FF979E 8D8D90@att.net> Message-ID: At 12:30 PM 4/20/2004, you wrote: >This message (below) was sent to the entire list, although it was >addressed to "Colleagues." So, I'm going to respond anyway even though >some may not consider me "a colleague." The message was cross posted from another list, AZTLAN. I thought that it was provocative, and indeed so it seems to be. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From zorrah at ATT.NET Tue Apr 20 19:46:59 2004 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:46:59 +0000 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: >The message was cross posted from another list, AZTLAN. I thought that it >was provocative, and indeed so it seems to be. Tlazohkamati. The topic is certainly provocative indeed. The research is interesting to say the least. But what interests me the most is the meaning of "the Reality of the Mexica Aztec." Somewhere, someone must have a clue as to what this exactly means from the perspective of the research question. I've heard people talk about different "realities" as constructed from language and culture (Post Modernism, Social Construction theory etc.). Yet, I have never heard of reconstructing a "reality" based on a remote test and a citation from the literature. I have not read any archaeology research (I have my good reasons) - my background is actually in the hard sciences. I would like to see more research on this topic using hard science (genetics, chemistry, physics etc.) and qualitative research (ethnography, etc.). I think both approaches would complement and support one another, giving us all a clearer picture of what happened (how, possible why) in precolonial Anahuac history. As, a side-note: During my research on rats, in which I preserved the brain of a once living rat after it had received methamphetamine or cocaine, I was able to �hold� the living heart in less than 1-minute. I accomplished this by cutting (with surgical scissors) just below the sternum, through the ribs, and up to the armpit area. This procedure allowed for me to �remove� the heart � or position it � as my particular protocol stated. So, being that rats are sometimes equated with humans (both are mammals with similar organs) � this same procedure could certainly be carried out rapidly on a human with the proper tool and skill. citlalin xochime Graduate Assistant New Mexico State University citlalin at att.net From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Tue Apr 20 19:58:03 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:58:03 -0400 Subject: three doubts In-Reply-To: <00ca01c426ea$0f402000$7794d351@mexico> Message-ID: Hello Susana! > (1) Plural reverential forms > Should one add the plural suffix to a noun and then the singular > reverential? NANTINTZIN? > or plural suffix and plural reverential? NANTINTZITZIN? > or no plural suffix and just plural reverential? NANTZITZIN? The honorific goes between the noun stem and the absolutive suffix (singular or plural). The honorific suffix reduplicates in the plural. Singular -tzin-tli; plural -tzitzin-tin. In possessed forms, the singular is -tzin and the plural is -tzitzin-huan. > 2) Stems > Is there a rule saying that whenever there are two vowels at the end of a > stem (i.e. TOCAITL, MAITL, TEMACHTIANI) one is to delete the last vowel > (TOCA, MA, TEMACHTI) ? No. A number of "small" words like tocaitl and maitl drop the -i- as well as the absolutive suffix to form the stem (toca-, ma-). Temachtiani doesn't drop anything. It's a noun derived from a verb, and doesn't take a singular absolutive suffix (-tl or -in). The plural is formed either by adding a final saltillo (temachtianih) or by suppletion (temachtihqueh). > > 3) Endings > Did nouns like CHICHI once have a traditional ending? (TL, TLI, LI, IN). No. It is thought to be a loan word. > Is the stem "chich"? No. It is chichi. > (chichitontli or chichtontli?) Chichiton. I don't think there would be anything wrong with chichitontli, though. The plural is chichitotontin. But this is just based on the body of classical Nahuatl texts. Geographically and temporally there is lots of variation, so one can't really say anything is absolutely right or wrong. Fran From kread at CONDOR.DEPAUL.EDU Tue Apr 20 20:15:05 2004 From: kread at CONDOR.DEPAUL.EDU (Kay A. Read) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:15:05 -0500 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: <042020041730.4006.40855E510001CFC000000FA62161243646FF979E 8D8D90@att.net> Message-ID: Listeros, It's also worthwhile to recall what R.C. Padden said about this almost forty years ago in The Hummingbird and the Hawk, (Harper and Row, 1967; n12, p.284). In there he cites a study a study almost 60 years old by Sherburne F. Cook. Cook perhaps underestimated that it took two minutes to extract a heart, but Padden also notes the variety of sacrificial conditions and how the speed would have varied. Also, does this rapid rate of extraction in the new study account for the unruliness of living people, or the numbers of skilled extractors one would have to have to keep up the pace (for example) for the 96 straight hours that Duran's example requires? Sahagun also says that, in at least some sacrificial rituals, the bodies were rolled down the steps, carted away and then divided up among certain recipients. One might have been capable of extracting a heart in 17-20 seconds, but then what? There's more to this than getting a heart out of an already lifeless body; one also has to do something with that body. And somebody has to do all that. Moreover, has anyone considered the ecological issues in this? Somewhere many years ago, I heard somebody claim that the disposal of 80, 400 bodies (the number Duran gives for that famous example), or even 11, 520 bodies (the number Cook came up with) would have really messed up the delicate ecology of the Basin of Mexico. I.e., what did they do with all the bodies? Bernard Ortiz de Montellano suggests that only some people ate only certain parts of those bodies (the thigh apparently was big); what happened to the rest? And, what did it do to the environment, if it really happened? I tend to agree with some of the other respondents to this, that it's good to treat our sources with a very heavy dose of suspicion and caution. Not only because they themselves come from authors who presume certain realities, but also because we ourselves come from situations that presume certain realities. My question, I guess, is why are we still concerned with the numbers of sacrifice? The sources are rich with a huge number of wonderful issues and topics; why is this still a burning question at least 60 years later. By the way they burned and decapitated people, and shot people with arrows, among other things too, why are we so hung up on the heart extractions? Is this really, really important for our understanding of Aztec sacrifice or, more generally, of Aztec worldviews, or does the question itself say something important about ourselves? Just some food for thought. Kay Read At 05:30 PM 4/20/2004 +0000, zorrah at ATT.NET wrote: >This message (below) was sent to the entire list, although it was >addressed to "Colleagues." So, I'm going to respond anyway even though >some may not consider me "a colleague." > >Question: Can you please operationalize what you mean by the "reality of >the Mexica Aztec and >other Mesoamerican civilizations" in your final sentence? Are you trying >to reconstruct what you think was the reality of the Mexica Aztec or what >exactly do you mean? Also, how does this "reality" connect with results >from an experiment on a synthetic human cadever? How can the results of >this experiment and a citation from Francis Berdan - provide anyone with a >credible representation of the "reality of the Mexica Aztec"? What is >this reality based on - theory? > >Thanks for your response, > >citlalin xochime >Nahuatl Tlahtolkalli >http://nahuatl.info/nahuatl.htm > > > > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > I have just reviewed the Discovery video titled "Unsolved > > History: Aztec Temple." Among the conclusions drawn via > > experimentation with a synthetic cadaver (of the sort created for > > military experimentation to test the effects of minefield damage > > to human tissue) is that it takes between 17 and 20 seconds to > > extract a human heart from below the sternum with a flint knife. > > > > A professor from the University of Cincinnati, Barry > > Isaac, has estimated that it would take approximately 2 minutes > > per sacrifice to position the captive, extract the heart, and > > tumble the captive down the steps of the Templo Mayor. By his > > calculations, at 2 minutes per captive, 30 men or women could > > have been sacrificed at each altar stone per hour. He concludes > > that in a 10 hour day 300 captives could be dispatched, and over > > a four day period (as in the mass sacrifice of 1487) some 1,200 > > captives were dispatched at each temple or altar site. > > > > Given the projected 19 altars used from throughout the > > city of Tenochtitlan, Professor Isaac concludes that 1200 > > multiplied by 19 altars comes to about 22,800. It is this figure > > that approximates the 20,000 captive offerings that Francis > > Berdan cites from the Codex Telleriano-Remensis. Berdan, prior > > to the experiments in question, in turn concluded that it would > > not have been possible to excise a beating human heart in anything > > under 5 minutes. If, in fact, as the experiment demonstrated, one > > attempts to cut through the sternum with a flint or chert knife, > > then it is likely that the effort will fail. On the other hand, > > by slicing or cutting the area below the sternum from end to end, > > one can in fact excise a still beating heart within the time frame > > noted. > > > > Ultimately, the experiment demonstrated that such an act > > could have been performed in about 20 seconds...while of course, > > a well experienced executioner may have performed the feat in > > less time. Any thoughts on this matter would be appreciated, > > particularly as I am currently in the throes of considering > > perspectives that both advocate the idea that mass human > > sacrifice was, or was not, the reality of the Mexica Aztec and > > other Mesoamerican civilizations. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director > > Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization > > Social and Behavioral Sciences > > California State University Monterey Bay > > 100 Campus Center > > Seaside, California 93955-8001 > > > > Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu > > Voice: 831-582-3760 > > Fax: 831-582-3566 > > http://archaeology.csumb.edu > > http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Tue Apr 20 20:33:23 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:33:23 -0500 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richley, Thanks for the peyo:ni gloss. Although I not sure if Luis ever gave a full citation or if I jotted it down, the cited documents would be 16th-17th century annals or chronicles from the Puebla-Mixteca area (basically Cholula toward Tepexi and probably Tehuacan). He did a lot of work in that region on Kirchoff's projects and then continued to direct students working in that area over the next two decades. I'll try to check my notes and those of my colleagues to see if we have a citation. best, Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Tue Apr 20 20:57:53 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:57:53 -0600 Subject: Misc. Message-ID: Thanks! Richley >>> mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU 04/20 2:33 PM >>> Richley, Thanks for the peyo:ni gloss. Although I not sure if Luis ever gave a full citation or if I jotted it down, the cited documents would be 16th-17th century annals or chronicles from the Puebla-Mixteca area (basically Cholula toward Tepexi and probably Tehuacan). He did a lot of work in that region on Kirchoff's projects and then continued to direct students working in that area over the next two decades. I'll try to check my notes and those of my colleagues to see if we have a citation. best, Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From institute at CSUMB.EDU Tue Apr 20 21:29:50 2004 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:29:50 -0700 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: <042020041730.4006.40855E510001CFC000000FA62161243646FF979E8D8D90@att.net> Message-ID: Nahua language and culture discussion writes: >Question: Can you please operationalize what you mean by the "reality of the Mexica Aztec and >other Mesoamerican civilizations" in your final sentence? Are you trying to reconstruct what you think was the reality of the Mexica Aztec or what exactly do you mean? Also, how does this >"reality" connect with results from an experiment on a synthetic human cadever? How can the results of this experiment and a citation from Francis Berdan - provide anyone with a credible >representation of the "reality of the Mexica Aztec"? What is this reality based on - theory? > >Thanks for your response, > >citlalin xochime >Nahuatl Tlahtolkalli Citlalin Xochime, As I am in the midst of an RTP review of a colleague, for the moment I would like to respond in brief, and by way of explanations proferred by me in a previous response to another neo-Mexica revisionist perspective presented in yet another list-serv context and "reality". First, the specific "reality" that I am most interested in at the moment concerns the "neo-Mexica revisionist" (or neo-post-modernist Mexica-Xicano) reality that has become quite vocal, and often antagonistic to university faculty and other students who raise questions such as those raised in my earlier post of today. As a professor at the California State University, Monterey Bay, where I teach such courses as "Art of the Aztec Empire" and "Ancient Maya Civilizations," I soon discovered that a number of my Latino, Mexicano, and Xicano students (and please do note that I count myself as a member of the Xicano reality) had adopted a polemical rhetoric often seen predominantly and exclusively among the more zealous members of the European and American "denial movements" that continue to proclaim such realities as that that espouses the belief that the Nazi-inspired holocaust of WWII is little more than a politically-motivated fiction. The "reality" in question has become the basis for a long-term personal interest in how it is that denial movements, ethnocentricity, and nationalism often go hand in hand to elevate, or quash, those elements of history, art, and science that such groups see as unsavory or demeaning. Significantly, your questions and challenges (not to mention, elements of your website) fit the frameworks of analysis that I have observed to date among those I now refer to as "neo-Mexica revisionists." Please do note, however, I do not consider said position to be without merit. In fact, if anything, consideration and analysis of those questions raised by "neo-Mexica revisionists" have in fact led me to more closely examine and analyze those diatribes that obtain between both proponents and detractors of the "paradise lost" vision and reality of ancient Mesoamerica. Ultimately, I believe that the shortcomings and failings of archaeology and ethnohistory, and the resurgence of ethnocentrically-defined movements and nationalistically inspired academic agendas, continue to cloud the bloody waters of human sacrifice, conflict, and warfare in the Americas and elsewhere. One neo-Mexica revisionist, who also happens to be a personal acquaintance of mine, has taken to using his pride in his adoptive Mexica roots to teach Xicano youth about the beauty of their ancestors and their contributions...particularly as concerns dissuading our youth from engaging in gangland conflict and violence. Others, on the other hand, profane the discussions by engaging in ad hominem attacks on any and all archaeologists and ethnohistorians who have worked to sustain Mexica Aztec studies for the better part of the past five centuries. From Sahagun to Carrasco, they have been attacked as racist, or characterized as one revisionist put it, as "arqueolocos." Ironically, while these same revisionists question the facts presented by Sahagun and others, they nevertheless persist in using data and cultural descriptions from these same scholars to "reconstruct" a "separate reality" of their respective heritage. Other neo-Mexica revisionists, predominantly Xicano, have written poetry decrying the blasphemies of the academy regarding their ancestors, while at the same time glorifying the bloodshed and violence of street gang warfare and drive-by shootings. Again, my objective here is not to denigrate, but to comprehend the very roots and affinities of the phenomenon in question. As a scientist I suspect that you would more than fully understand that reality is relative! If anything, like you, I seek to promote a forensic approach to those vestiges of the conflict in question that take many forms. Interestingly, no matter how many questions asked, or "facts" interrogated, the arguments can be perpetuated indefinitely in this instance. The following was my specific proposal to another neo-Mexica revisionist perspective brought to bear in another context (I will respond to other specifics latter today or tomorrow): "I am in fact in agreement with your assessments. It is precisely for said reasons that I would advocate that blood residue analysis of cult objects, including axe blades, statuary, and vessels (e.g., Ocelotl Cuauhxicalli), be confined to those cult objects retrieved from pre-Hispanic archaeological contexts (e.g., Leonardo Lopez Lujan, 1994). In addition, the analysis of bone collagen in fact hold the potential to provenience those proteins and amino acids specific to food group sources that would assist in the identification of from whence such foods were consumed. This was in fact recently done to provenience the origins of an early Copan dynast to the Northern Yucatan. Given that the forensic analysis of bone and blood residues now holds the potential to identify human blood serum as old as 90,000 years BP, and that corallary analysis of amino acids and proteins will permit the identification of (ethnic) origins, I believe that in this way we can begin to assess Spanish contact claims pertaining to the those core issues that remain as per the question of human sacrifice. I am particularly concerned about the inadequacy of forensic data pertinent to the following questions: (a) Does there exist a body of prima facie forensic evidence to contest or support recent claims by neo-Mexica revisionists (e.g., Tlapoyawa, 2002; Mendoza, 2001; 2003) that Spanish documentation for the existence of human sacrifice in Mesoamerica is little more than a fabrication of Spanish conquistadores and clerics? (b) If, in fact, we can demonstrate that blood sacrifice was a matter of fact among such groups as the Mexica Aztec, do we not have access to a sufficient body of osteological evidence to specify the forms of blood sacrifice that may have been practiced (e.g., human heart excision, decapitation, etc.)? (c) Given both popular lore, and neo-Mexica revisionist claims that if, in fact, human sacrifice was practiced, it was only another more radical form of auto-sacrifice in which only those self-selecting or volunteering were given over to the gods; then can either blood residue, DNA, or bone collagen studies settle the matter of who specifically was targeted for such a divine rite? and, finally, (d) Given revisionist claims that the practice of tearing a human heart from a living, breathing, victim is not technically, or surgically, feasible with stone tools (or other more modern methods that require specialized instruments), how then do the Matamoros cult killings of the 1980's (wherein a single individual or cult leader accomplished the same task unassisted by attendants) provide an "ethnographic" analog that might in turn settle this latter question? So, given the many questions that remain unanswered, and the many assumptions that both scholars and the lay public make about virtually every architectonic feature on the Mesoamerican landscape (i.e., the notion that all "altar" platforms were in essence sacrificial sites), how then can we fruitfully and effectively begin to bring resolve to the questions that continue to vex Amerindian and Mesoamericanist communities? [Note: A recent AAA symposium organized by Rick Chacon, David Dye, and myself, was an effort in this direction]." You have my preliminary response...and I look forward to more on the topic in question. To that end, I thank all who have contributed many more questions than can be resolved in this lifetime or the next. Ashkale Kuarma, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. From institute at CSUMB.EDU Tue Apr 20 22:24:16 2004 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:24:16 -0700 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20040420145122.022c9958@condor.depaul.edu> Message-ID: Nahua language and culture discussion writes: >Moreover, has anyone considered the ecological issues in this? Somewhere many years ago, I heard somebody claim that the disposal of 80, 400 bodies (the number Duran gives for that famous example), >or even 11, 520 bodies (the number Cook came up with) would have really messed up the delicate ecology of the Basin of Mexico. I.e., what did they do with all the bodies? Bernard Ortiz de >Montellano suggests that only some people ate only certain parts of those bodies (the thigh apparently was big); what happened to the rest? And, what did it do to the environment, if it really >happened? Last I checked, the ecology of Rawanda was little effected by the genocidal massacre of some 800,000 civilian non-combatants in a period of little more than eight weeks...and with machetes and garden tools, no less. Media footage of the massacre and its aftermath make clear that many of the victims were simply left where they died, or were tossed into rivers where they polluted the waters with a crimson hue until such time that the hundreds of thousands of rotting corpses washed out to sea, or were consumed by the wildlife of the region. So, I must necessarily differ with your perspective on the decimation of the ecology...particularly as I understand that human remains are largely biodegradable. > > >I tend to agree with some of the other respondents to this, that it's good to treat our sources with a very heavy dose of suspicion and caution. Not only because they themselves come from authors >who presume certain realities, but also because we ourselves come from situations that presume certain realities. Good point! It is precisely this line of thinking that will continue to parody any and all thinking on any and all matters of the human spirit...and the carnage that generally follows. Where does that leave anthropology, history, ethnohistory, etc? While I think that critical theory and post-modernist critiques have their place in the academy, I must confess that as the product of an impoverished family from an "oppressed" minority ethnic group, such critiques generally fall short in their efforts to go beyond hegemonic discourse analysis...and into the realm of how it is that people like my family and I were able to put food on the table. Such discursive networks have little utility for the vast majority of the world's population, which is hungry, poor, and uneducated in the niceties and frivolities of post-modern thinking. > >My question, I guess, is why are we still concerned with the numbers of sacrifice? The sources are rich with a huge number of wonderful issues and topics; why is this still a burning question at >least 60 years later. By the way they burned and decapitated people, and shot people with arrows, among other things too, why are we so hung up on the heart extractions? Is this really, really >important for our understanding of Aztec sacrifice or, more generally, of Aztec worldviews, or does the question itself say something important about ourselves? These too are good questions, but do suggest a degree of naivette about what you yourself bring into question about what is significant, and what is not, in the world of scholarship. Why would anyone care about the total number of human beings slaughtered in the Rawanda genocide...after all, it would seem that by your argument, such considerations (of genocide), have no place in the conflict ridden tribal zone of the academy. I would also counter by reframing your question by asking: "why are we still concerned with the numbers..." of people in Tenochtitlan, or the quantity of debitage on an archaeological site...or the number of atoms in an atomic bomb? Like you, I simply put these thoughts out there as food for thought...or for the Gods, as the case may be! Best Regards, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. From micc2 at COX.NET Tue Apr 20 22:35:38 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:35:38 -0700 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ruben, I have read your comments and I could not agree with you more! I have been involved in the Danza Azteca/Chicano indigenous movement since 1973. It saddens me when I hear from and read stuff written by 18-25 year old college students, or community activists that want to re-write what they perceive as the "European propaganda" of my community's past. Their fanaticism is up right there with the Osama bin Laden's followers, the fundamentalist Christian right, and the old Maoist shinning path... As you state there are some people who want to use our cultural, linguistic and spiritual legacy for the betterment of our community. But there are a small number of individuals who cling to the Mexican indigenous identify and Pan-Indian movements for their own selfish and personal ends. Any logical or reasoned debate with them is useless since they immediately attack anyone who does not follow their way of thinking as "vendidos" and sell-outs... These people use the innocence and longing of good people to take advantage of society in general, the Chicano/Mexicano community in particular. I have even hears these "spiritual" people tell first generation Mixteco-speaking kids that nahuatl is their REAL language, and that if they do not learn it they can never be indigenous people!!! Here in San Diego County we have a large Mixteco-speaking population. These Mixteco kids are going form Mixteco directly into English, with never a Castilian word getting in the way (another reason why the word "Hispanic is useless!) When a person who wants to re-write history and ( with so little understanding of culture, language or spirituality) at the expense of the other indigenous people of Mexico (such as the Otomi, Tarasco, Mixteco, Zapoteco, Mixe-Zoque, Trique, Popoloca, Guave, Seri, Huichol, Yoreme, Cocopa, etc) they are IN FACT DOING THE VERY THING THEY ACCUSE THE "ARCHEAOLOCS" OF DOING- destroying our heritage and making it into a hollywood style charicature. It reminds me of the times I was in Mecha in the early 1970's at San Diego State. At that time it was "la Liga" of marxist student majority versus the nationalists, and the indigenists (of which I was a partisan). And all of us where against the "vendidos" and sell-outs... Now that that battle was "won" by the indigenists and psuedo-nationalists, the tables are turned! Now we have some young guns who, having missed out on the fabled furor of the 60's and 70's, now they want to have something to fight about. What they do not realize is that this battle is only between ourselves, and that energy could be put to more constructive use. Personally, it is more important that we help keep alive today's indigenous languages of the world; in living and evolving ways, not for what was, but for what hopefully could be a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic global village. The number of "victims" 500 years ago means squat, compared to how many monolingual people in the highlands of Hidalgo, Veracruz, Chiapas, Guatemala and Ecuador are going to die of malnutrition, or be oppressed by "their" governments. Tlein i'toa moyollo? mario www.mexicayotl.org Archaeology Institute wrote: >Nahua language and culture discussion writes: > > >>Question: Can you please operationalize what you mean by the "reality of the Mexica Aztec and >>other Mesoamerican civilizations" in your final sentence? Are you trying to reconstruct what you think was the reality of the Mexica Aztec or what exactly do you mean? Also, how does this >>"reality" connect with results from an experiment on a synthetic human cadever? How can the results of this experiment and a citation from Francis Berdan - provide anyone with a credible >>representation of the "reality of the Mexica Aztec"? What is this reality based on - theory? >> >>Thanks for your response, >> >>citlalin xochime >>Nahuatl Tlahtolkalli >> >> > >Citlalin Xochime, > > As I am in the midst of an RTP review of a colleague, for the moment I would like to respond in brief, and by way of explanations proferred by me in a previous response to another neo-Mexica >revisionist perspective presented in yet another list-serv context and "reality". First, the specific "reality" that I am most interested in at the moment concerns the "neo-Mexica revisionist" (or >neo-post-modernist Mexica-Xicano) reality that has become quite vocal, and often antagonistic to university faculty and other students who raise questions such as those raised in my earlier post of >today. > > As a professor at the California State University, Monterey Bay, where I teach such courses as "Art of the Aztec Empire" and "Ancient Maya Civilizations," I soon discovered that a number of my >Latino, Mexicano, and Xicano students (and please do note that I count myself as a member of the Xicano reality) had adopted a polemical rhetoric often seen predominantly and exclusively among the >more zealous members of the European and American "denial movements" that continue to proclaim such realities as that that espouses the belief that the Nazi-inspired holocaust of WWII is little more >than a politically-motivated fiction. The "reality" in question has become the basis for a long-term personal interest in how it is that denial movements, ethnocentricity, and nationalism often go >hand in hand to elevate, or quash, those elements of history, art, and science that such groups see as unsavory or demeaning. > > Significantly, your questions and challenges (not to mention, elements of your website) fit the frameworks of analysis that I have observed to date among those I now refer to as "neo-Mexica >revisionists." Please do note, however, I do not consider said position to be without merit. In fact, if anything, consideration and analysis of those questions raised by "neo-Mexica revisionists" >have in fact led me to more closely examine and analyze those diatribes that obtain between both proponents and detractors of the "paradise lost" vision and reality of ancient Mesoamerica. >Ultimately, I believe that the shortcomings and failings of archaeology and ethnohistory, and the resurgence of ethnocentrically-defined movements and nationalistically inspired academic agendas, >continue to cloud the bloody waters of human sacrifice, conflict, and warfare in the Americas and elsewhere. > > One neo-Mexica revisionist, who also happens to be a personal acquaintance of mine, has taken to using his pride in his adoptive Mexica roots to teach Xicano youth about the beauty of their >ancestors and their contributions...particularly as concerns dissuading our youth from engaging in gangland conflict and violence. Others, on the other hand, profane the discussions by engaging in >ad hominem attacks on any and all archaeologists and ethnohistorians who have worked to sustain Mexica Aztec studies for the better part of the past five centuries. From Sahagun to Carrasco, they >have been attacked as racist, or characterized as one revisionist put it, as "arqueolocos." Ironically, while these same revisionists question the facts presented by Sahagun and others, they >nevertheless persist in using data and cultural descriptions from these same scholars to "reconstruct" a "separate reality" of their respective heritage. Other neo-Mexica revisionists, predominantly >Xicano, have written poetry decrying the blasphemies of the academy regarding their ancestors, while at the same time glorifying the bloodshed and violence of street gang warfare and drive-by >shootings. Again, my objective here is not to denigrate, but to comprehend the very roots and affinities of the phenomenon in question. As a scientist I suspect that you would more than fully >understand that reality is relative! > > If anything, like you, I seek to promote a forensic approach to those vestiges of the conflict in question that take many forms. Interestingly, no matter how many questions asked, or "facts" >interrogated, the arguments can be perpetuated indefinitely in this instance. The following was my specific proposal to another neo-Mexica revisionist perspective brought to bear in another context >(I will respond to other specifics latter today or tomorrow): > > > "I am in fact in agreement with your assessments. It is precisely for said reasons that I would advocate that blood residue analysis of cult objects, including axe blades, statuary, and vessels >(e.g., Ocelotl Cuauhxicalli), be confined to those cult objects retrieved from pre-Hispanic archaeological contexts (e.g., Leonardo Lopez Lujan, 1994). In addition, the analysis of bone collagen in >fact hold the potential to provenience those proteins and amino acids specific to food group sources that would assist in the identification of from whence such foods were consumed. This was in fact >recently done to provenience the origins of an early Copan dynast to the Northern Yucatan. Given that the forensic analysis of bone and blood residues now holds the potential to identify human blood >serum as old as 90,000 years BP, and that corallary analysis of amino acids and proteins will permit the identification of (ethnic) origins, I believe that in this way we can begin to assess Spanish >contact claims pertaining to the those core issues that remain as per the question of human sacrifice. I am particularly concerned about the inadequacy of forensic data pertinent to the following >questions: > >(a) Does there exist a body of prima facie forensic evidence to contest or support recent claims by neo-Mexica revisionists (e.g., Tlapoyawa, 2002; Mendoza, 2001; 2003) that Spanish documentation >for the existence of human sacrifice in Mesoamerica is little more than a fabrication of Spanish conquistadores and clerics? > >(b) If, in fact, we can demonstrate that blood sacrifice was a matter of fact among such groups as the Mexica Aztec, do we not have access to a sufficient body of osteological evidence to specify the >forms of blood sacrifice that may have been practiced (e.g., human heart excision, decapitation, etc.)? > >(c) Given both popular lore, and neo-Mexica revisionist claims that if, in fact, human sacrifice was practiced, it was only another more radical form of auto-sacrifice in which only those >self-selecting or volunteering were given over to the gods; then can either blood residue, DNA, or bone collagen studies settle the matter of who specifically was targeted for such a divine rite? > >and, finally, > >(d) Given revisionist claims that the practice of tearing a human heart from a living, breathing, victim is not technically, or surgically, feasible with stone tools (or other more modern methods >that require specialized instruments), how then do the Matamoros cult killings of the 1980's (wherein a single individual or cult leader accomplished the same task unassisted by attendants) provide >an "ethnographic" analog that might in turn settle this latter question? > > So, given the many questions that remain unanswered, and the many assumptions that both scholars and the lay public make about virtually every architectonic feature on the Mesoamerican landscape >(i.e., the notion that all "altar" platforms were in essence sacrificial sites), how then can we fruitfully and effectively begin to bring resolve to the questions that continue to vex Amerindian and >Mesoamericanist communities? [Note: A recent AAA symposium organized by Rick Chacon, David Dye, and myself, was an effort in this direction]." > > You have my preliminary response...and I look forward to more on the topic in question. To that end, I thank all who have contributed many more questions than can be resolved in this lifetime or the >next. > >Ashkale Kuarma, > >Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director >Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization >Social and Behavioral Sciences >California State University Monterey Bay >100 Campus Center >Seaside, California 93955-8001 > >Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu >Voice: 831-582-3760 >Fax: 831-582-3566 >http://archaeology.csumb.edu >http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ > > > > > >Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. >If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication >in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. > >Thank you. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kread at CONDOR.DEPAUL.EDU Tue Apr 20 22:58:37 2004 From: kread at CONDOR.DEPAUL.EDU (Kay A. Read) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:58:37 -0500 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Ruben, Thanks very much for your thoughts (or thoughtful food. . .). I wasn't myself arguing for ecological disruptions, but had heard the argument made some years ago. The Rwanda case is very interesting on this regards, and answers my honest question on this. And yes, I can see that numbers are significant and would not want to deny that. What was behind those rather quickly made remarks, however, I hope was not all that naive. The area of Aztec studies has been and often still is dominated by questions about sacrifice (how it was done, who did it, to whom, and how many. . .so on), and specifically on human (even though many other types of sacrifice occurred). It's not unusual for studies on sacrificial rituals to ignore all sacrifice but human; making no effort to account for a fuller picture. My question was more one of frustration around the seemingly continual expectation that that is what we apparently must study, if we study the Aztecs; that apparently there is little else of interest. Of course, many of us do study other things. Still, these studies are limited to an audience that is quite small; primarily other specialists who are also deeply into this stuff. Moreover, a large part of the historiography of Aztec studies in both the ancient and recent past has focused heavily on sacrifice. And, in the minds of many non-specialists out there, the out-standing issue is sacrifice. I'm raising the question of why? What does it say about us that we focus on human sacrifice? Just still throwing things out there... Regards, Kay At 03:24 PM 4/20/2004 -0700, Archaeology Institute wrote: >Nahua language and culture discussion writes: > >Moreover, has anyone considered the ecological issues in > this? Somewhere many years ago, I heard somebody claim that the disposal > of 80, 400 bodies (the number Duran gives for that famous example), > >or even 11, 520 bodies (the number Cook came up with) would have really > messed up the delicate ecology of the Basin of Mexico. I.e., what did > they do with all the bodies? Bernard Ortiz de > >Montellano suggests that only some people ate only certain parts of > those bodies (the thigh apparently was big); what happened to the > rest? And, what did it do to the environment, if it really > >happened? > >Last I checked, the ecology of Rawanda was little effected by the >genocidal massacre of some 800,000 civilian non-combatants in a period of >little more than eight weeks...and with machetes and garden >tools, no less. Media footage of the massacre and its aftermath make >clear that many of the victims were simply left where they died, or were >tossed into rivers where they polluted the waters with a >crimson hue until such time that the hundreds of thousands of rotting >corpses washed out to sea, or were consumed by the wildlife of the >region. So, I must necessarily differ with your perspective >on the decimation of the ecology...particularly as I understand that human >remains are largely biodegradable. > > > > > >I tend to agree with some of the other respondents to this, that it's > good to treat our sources with a very heavy dose of suspicion and > caution. Not only because they themselves come from authors > >who presume certain realities, but also because we ourselves come from > situations that presume certain realities. > >Good point! It is precisely this line of thinking that will continue to >parody any and all thinking on any and all matters of the human >spirit...and the carnage that generally follows. Where does >that leave anthropology, history, ethnohistory, etc? While I think that >critical theory and post-modernist critiques have their place in the >academy, I must confess that as the product of an >impoverished family from an "oppressed" minority ethnic group, such >critiques generally fall short in their efforts to go beyond hegemonic >discourse analysis...and into the realm of how it is that >people like my family and I were able to put food on the table. Such >discursive networks have little utility for the vast majority of the >world's population, which is hungry, poor, and uneducated in >the niceties and frivolities of post-modern thinking. > > > >My question, I guess, is why are we still concerned with the numbers of > sacrifice? The sources are rich with a huge number of wonderful issues > and topics; why is this still a burning question at > >least 60 years later. By the way they burned and decapitated people, > and shot people with arrows, among other things too, why are we so hung > up on the heart extractions? Is this really, really > >important for our understanding of Aztec sacrifice or, more generally, > of Aztec worldviews, or does the question itself say something important > about ourselves? > >These too are good questions, but do suggest a degree of naivette about >what you yourself bring into question about what is significant, and what >is not, in the world of scholarship. Why would >anyone care about the total number of human beings slaughtered in the >Rawanda genocide...after all, it would seem that by your argument, such >considerations (of genocide), have no place in the >conflict ridden tribal zone of the academy. I would also counter by >reframing your question by asking: "why are we still concerned with the >numbers..." of people in Tenochtitlan, or the quantity of >debitage on an archaeological site...or the number of atoms in an atomic >bomb? Like you, I simply put these thoughts out there as food for >thought...or for the Gods, as the case may be! > >Best Regards, > >Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director >Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization >Social and Behavioral Sciences >California State University Monterey Bay >100 Campus Center >Seaside, California 93955-8001 > >Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu >Voice: 831-582-3760 >Fax: 831-582-3566 >http://archaeology.csumb.edu >http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ > > > > > >Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message >is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only >for the use of the individual or entity named above. >If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any >disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this >communication is prohibited. If you received this communication >in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the >original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and >any network to which your computer is connected. > >Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From deneen at VALLEY.NET Tue Apr 20 22:48:48 2004 From: deneen at VALLEY.NET (Dan Deneen) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:48:48 -0400 Subject: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: Hello All-- Twenty years ago Elizabeth Boone edited a volume called "Ritual Human Sacrifice in Mesoamerica," (Dumbarton Oaks, 1984) that included an article by the physicians Francis Robicsek and Donald Hales on "Maya Heart Sacrifice: cultural perspective and surgical technique." They argued the most likely technique was what a surgeon would call "transverse anterior thoracotomy" which involved the use of a serrated blade to cut BETWEEN the ribs and ACROSS the sternum. The overextended supine position (victim stretched backwards over the altar by the arms and legs) would cause the contents of the thoracic cavity, namely, the heart, to be easily accessible. There was a discussion about problems connected with accessing the heart from underneath the sternum (the usual explanation), and they came out against it, though I don't remember the specific objections in the argument. I seem to recall that their work was based both on their experience as surgeons, and cadaver experimentation with serrated blades modelled after the semilunar tool believed to have been used in heart sacrifice. --Dan Dan Deneen Strafford, Vermont www.deneenstreet.com From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Tue Apr 20 23:09:58 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:09:58 -0500 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: <40856612.2060105@cox.net> Message-ID: Human sacrifice is a normal human behavior, or was, has been. It's not pretty. But then humans are not always pretty. I imagine that the number of sacrifices, that 80,000+ thing, was never really known by anyone for sure who was there on at the scene. The number itself, however, indicates "muchos". Miguelton From chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 21 01:41:34 2004 From: chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM (chelo dona) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:41:34 -0300 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From institute at CSUMB.EDU Wed Apr 21 02:23:18 2004 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:23:18 -0700 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nahua language and culture discussion writes: >Yo soy músico. Encantado. Y poeta, tambien! Gracias por sus ideas y commentarios sobre la idea de los "veinte segundos"! La idea de que estamos acostumbrados a ver el mundo por ojos europeos sera gran parte de la problema en nuestros commentarios y estudios del sacrificio humano en las Americas. Por fin, mis estudiantes quieren ver y saber: "porque el sacrificio humano?" En ver por ojos "europeos" no pueden ver la destruccion y violencia de nuestras comunidades y nuestras fuerzas armadas...en las tierras del tercer mundo! Abrazos y Saludos, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. From chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 21 03:46:28 2004 From: chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM (chelo dona) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:46:28 -0300 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micc2 at COX.NET Wed Apr 21 04:17:32 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:17:32 -0700 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "The number itself, however, indicates "muchos"." EXACTLY!! Lost to modern readers who know nothing about allegorical or symbolic speech, is the fact that certain numbers do not mean EXACTLY that number but QUANTITIES. Lost in the layman's (and revisionist's) conversation is the symbolic rather than the literal representation. To echo another writer: "My question was more one of frustration around the seemingly continual expectation that that is what we apparently must study, if we study the Aztecs; that apparently there is little else of interest." Of course, having the Discovery Channel, the Learning Channel and Time-Life books always re-hash this subject, and then having the neo -mexi'cas deny everything does not help!!!! mario Michael Mccafferty wrote: >Human sacrifice is a normal human behavior, or was, has been. It's not >pretty. But then humans are not always pretty. > >I imagine that the number of sacrifices, that 80,000+ thing, was never >really known by anyone for sure who was there on at the scene. The number >itself, however, indicates "muchos". > >Miguelton > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zorrah at ATT.NET Wed Apr 21 04:39:22 2004 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 04:39:22 +0000 Subject: Archaeology Institute/ Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: >Significantly, your questions and challenges (not to mention, elements >of your website) fit the frameworks of analysis that I have observed to date >among those I now refer to as "neo-Mexica >revisionists." Dr. Ruben G. Mendoza: Please save your discriminatory labels for all your experimental cows out there that are willing to be branded with them: "neo-Mexica revisionist," "neo-Mexica revisionist" (or neo-post-modernist Mexica-Xicano), "neo-Mexica revisionists" - I'm not. NO thanks�for your reductive interpretations, generalizations, and unfounded relationships. The world, its cultures, and its peoples cannot be - all that simplified and reduced into neat little categories and labels as you present them to be. I had higher expectations for your response, especially from a professional. What a disappointment. citlalin xochime Graduate Student New Mexico State University English Department > Nahua language and culture discussion writes: > >Question: Can you please operationalize what you mean by the "reality of the > Mexica Aztec and > >other Mesoamerican civilizations" in your final sentence? Are you trying to > reconstruct what you think was the reality of the Mexica Aztec or what exactly > do you mean? Also, how does this > >"reality" connect with results from an experiment on a synthetic human cadever? > How can the results of this experiment and a citation from Francis Berdan - > provide anyone with a credible > >representation of the "reality of the Mexica Aztec"? What is this reality > based on - theory? > > > >Thanks for your response, > > > >citlalin xochime > >Nahuatl Tlahtolkalli > > Citlalin Xochime, > > As I am in the midst of an RTP review of a colleague, for the moment I > would like to respond in brief, and by way of explanations proferred by me in a > previous response to another neo-Mexica > revisionist perspective presented in yet another list-serv context and > "reality". First, the specific "reality" that I am most interested in at the > moment concerns the "neo-Mexica revisionist" (or > neo-post-modernist Mexica-Xicano) reality that has become quite vocal, and often > antagonistic to university faculty and other students who raise questions such > as those raised in my earlier post of > today. > > As a professor at the California State University, Monterey Bay, where I > teach such courses as "Art of the Aztec Empire" and "Ancient Maya > Civilizations," I soon discovered that a number of my > Latino, Mexicano, and Xicano students (and please do note that I count myself as > a member of the Xicano reality) had adopted a polemical rhetoric often seen > predominantly and exclusively among the > more zealous members of the European and American "denial movements" that > continue to proclaim such realities as that that espouses the belief that the > Nazi-inspired holocaust of WWII is little more > than a politically-motivated fiction. The "reality" in question has become the > basis for a long-term personal interest in how it is that denial movements, > ethnocentricity, and nationalism often go > hand in hand to elevate, or quash, those elements of history, art, and science > that such groups see as unsavory or demeaning. > > Significantly, your questions and challenges (not to mention, elements > of your website) fit the frameworks of analysis that I have observed to date > among those I now refer to as "neo-Mexica > revisionists." Please do note, however, I do not consider said position to be > without merit. In fact, if anything, consideration and analysis of those > questions raised by "neo-Mexica revisionists" > have in fact led me to more closely examine and analyze those diatribes that > obtain between both proponents and detractors of the "paradise lost" vision and > reality of ancient Mesoamerica. > Ultimately, I believe that the shortcomings and failings of archaeology and > ethnohistory, and the resurgence of ethnocentrically-defined movements and > nationalistically inspired academic agendas, > continue to cloud the bloody waters of human sacrifice, conflict, and warfare in > the Americas and elsewhere. > > One neo-Mexica revisionist, who also happens to be a personal > acquaintance of mine, has taken to using his pride in his adoptive Mexica roots > to teach Xicano youth about the beauty of their > ancestors and their contributions...particularly as concerns dissuading our > youth from engaging in gangland conflict and violence. Others, on the other > hand, profane the discussions by engaging in > ad hominem attacks on any and all archaeologists and ethnohistorians who have > worked to sustain Mexica Aztec studies for the better part of the past five > centuries. From Sahagun to Carrasco, they > have been attacked as racist, or characterized as one revisionist put it, as > "arqueolocos." Ironically, while these same revisionists question the facts > presented by Sahagun and others, they > nevertheless persist in using data and cultural descriptions from these same > scholars to "reconstruct" a "separate reality" of their respective heritage. > Other neo-Mexica revisionists, predominantly > Xicano, have written poetry decrying the blasphemies of the academy regarding > their ancestors, while at the same time glorifying the bloodshed and violence of > street gang warfare and drive-by > shootings. Again, my objective here is not to denigrate, but to comprehend the > very roots and affinities of the phenomenon in question. As a scientist I > suspect that you would more than fully > understand that reality is relative! > > If anything, like you, I seek to promote a forensic approach to those > vestiges of the conflict in question that take many forms. Interestingly, no > matter how many questions asked, or "facts" > interrogated, the arguments can be perpetuated indefinitely in this instance. > The following was my specific proposal to another neo-Mexica revisionist > perspective brought to bear in another context > (I will respond to other specifics latter today or tomorrow): > > > "I am in fact in agreement with your assessments. It is precisely for > said reasons that I would advocate that blood residue analysis of cult objects, > including axe blades, statuary, and vessels > (e.g., Ocelotl Cuauhxicalli), be confined to those cult objects retrieved from > pre-Hispanic archaeological contexts (e.g., Leonardo Lopez Lujan, 1994). In > addition, the analysis of bone collagen in > fact hold the potential to provenience those proteins and amino acids specific > to food group sources that would assist in the identification of from whence > such foods were consumed. This was in fact > recently done to provenience the origins of an early Copan dynast to the > Northern Yucatan. Given that the forensic analysis of bone and blood residues > now holds the potential to identify human blood > serum as old as 90,000 years BP, and that corallary analysis of amino acids and > proteins will permit the identification of (ethnic) origins, I believe that in > this way we can begin to assess Spanish > contact claims pertaining to the those core issues that remain as per the > question of human sacrifice. I am particularly concerned about the inadequacy > of forensic data pertinent to the following > questions: > > (a) Does there exist a body of prima facie forensic evidence to contest or > support recent claims by neo-Mexica revisionists (e.g., Tlapoyawa, 2002; > Mendoza, 2001; 2003) that Spanish documentation > for the existence of human sacrifice in Mesoamerica is little more than a > fabrication of Spanish conquistadores and clerics? > > (b) If, in fact, we can demonstrate that blood sacrifice was a matter of fact > among such groups as the Mexica Aztec, do we not have access to a sufficient > body of osteological evidence to specify the > forms of blood sacrifice that may have been practiced (e.g., human heart > excision, decapitation, etc.)? > > (c) Given both popular lore, and neo-Mexica revisionist claims that if, in fact, > human sacrifice was practiced, it was only another more radical form of > auto-sacrifice in which only those > self-selecting or volunteering were given over to the gods; then can either > blood residue, DNA, or bone collagen studies settle the matter of who > specifically was targeted for such a divine rite? > > and, finally, > > (d) Given revisionist claims that the practice of tearing a human heart from a > living, breathing, victim is not technically, or surgically, feasible with stone > tools (or other more modern methods > that require specialized instruments), how then do the Matamoros cult killings > of the 1980's (wherein a single individual or cult leader accomplished the same > task unassisted by attendants) provide > an "ethnographic" analog that might in turn settle this latter question? > > So, given the many questions that remain unanswered, and the many > assumptions that both scholars and the lay public make about virtually every > architectonic feature on the Mesoamerican landscape > (i.e., the notion that all "altar" platforms were in essence sacrificial sites), > how then can we fruitfully and effectively begin to bring resolve to the > questions that continue to vex Amerindian and > Mesoamericanist communities? [Note: A recent AAA symposium organized by Rick > Chacon, David Dye, and myself, was an effort in this direction]." > > You have my preliminary response...and I look forward to more on the > topic in question. To that end, I thank all who have contributed many more > questions than can be resolved in this lifetime or the > next. > > Ashkale Kuarma, > > Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director > Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization > Social and Behavioral Sciences > California State University Monterey Bay > 100 Campus Center > Seaside, California 93955-8001 > > Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu > Voice: 831-582-3760 > Fax: 831-582-3566 > http://archaeology.csumb.edu > http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ > > From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Wed Apr 21 05:41:17 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 06:41:17 +0100 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20040420173426.022b8b50@condor.depaul.edu> Message-ID: There are different sorts of human sacrifice. One sort that I have heard of was routine execution of a criminal (persistent thief or suchlike), where the tribe makes a religious ceremony out of it with such things as telling the executed man to take messages to the gods or to dead relatives of living members of the tribe. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Wed Apr 21 12:46:02 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 07:46:02 -0500 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: <4085F5DC.4050504@cox.net> Message-ID: Human sacrifice gets people's attention, then and now. It's just salesmanship in one form or another. Dark roots. I imagine that when, as these days, it's not culturally "sanctioned," (from "sanctus" 'holy'), then it oozes out in some other form-- genocide, perhaps. The late prehistoric and early historic Nahua peoples were obviously amazing folks. If I were a descendent, I'd certainly feel proud of my ancestors regardless. It seems that one aspect of their culture that has received little lipservice (tenyotl!), is the obviously important place in that was occupied by entheogenic plants, and their influence on cosmology, art, song, hunting, war...(human sacrifice?)... On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, micc2 wrote: > "The number itself, however, indicates "muchos"." EXACTLY!! Lost to modern readers who know nothing about allegorical or symbolic speech, is the fact that certain numbers do not mean EXACTLY that number but QUANTITIES. > > Lost in the layman's (and revisionist's) conversation is the symbolic rather than the literal representation. To echo another writer: > > "My question was more one of frustration around the seemingly continual expectation that that is what we apparently must study, if we study the Aztecs; that apparently there is little else of interest." > > Of course, having the Discovery Channel, the Learning Channel and Time-Life books always re-hash this subject, and then having the neo -mexi'cas deny everything does not help!!!! > > mario > > > > Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > >Human sacrifice is a normal human behavior, or was, has been. It's not > >pretty. But then humans are not always pretty. > > > >I imagine that the number of sacrifices, that 80,000+ thing, was never > >really known by anyone for sure who was there on at the scene. The number > >itself, however, indicates "muchos". > > > >Miguelton > > > > > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From notoca at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 22 11:37:50 2004 From: notoca at HOTMAIL.COM (Chi:chi:ltic Coyo:tl) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:37:50 +0800 Subject: Az: Current Info, Excavations, etc Message-ID: Hi How does one find out what is happening today in the non-Maya parts of Mexico (eg Aztecs, Huastecs, Totonacs, Purepecha, etc) as far as new information, excavations, etc? I get to hear very little new information. What resources are there available. I see many posts on this list about the Maya and I'm "hungry" for the same sort of info on the non Maya world of Mexico. Thanks Chichiltic Coyotl From harvey.west at COX.NET Thu Apr 22 14:35:05 2004 From: harvey.west at COX.NET (harvey.west at COX.NET) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:35:05 -0400 Subject: Az: Current Info, Excavations, etc Message-ID: You might try typing 'Aztec' into Google and following the many links that come up. The first link is the Calendar. You might also try the UNAM, Templo Mayor, and INAH websites. I am more interested in the Nahua speakers in the Valley of Mexico than in the Mayan people. There are many sources of material on precolumbian Nahua culture in both Nahua and Spanish. The poetry of Nezahualcoyotl is in print today in Nahua and Spanish. How much time do you have? The sites in Mexico City are there to visit from the Summer Palace of Nezahuacoyotl at Tetzcotzinco near Texcoco to the Cerro de las Estrellas where the 'new fire' ceremony was performed every 52 years. You can't put a spade into the dirt in Mexico without uncovering the pre-Columbian past. John Carlson at University of Maryland is a Mexicanist more than a Mayanist; he has a website dedicated to archeo-astronomy. I warn you, it is like a drug. Once, you start, it is hard to stop. Mexico is utterly enchanting. H > > From: "Chi:chi:ltic Coyo:tl" > Date: 2004/04/22 Thu AM 07:37:50 EDT > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Az: Current Info, Excavations, etc > > Hi > > > > How does one find out what is happening today in the non-Maya parts of > Mexico (eg Aztecs, Huastecs, Totonacs, Purepecha, etc) as far as new > information, excavations, etc? I get to hear very little new information. > What resources are there available. I see many posts on this list about the > Maya and I'm "hungry" for the same sort of info on the non Maya world of > Mexico. > > > > Thanks > > > > Chichiltic Coyotl > Harvey West 703-850-5243 From a.aimi at TISCALINET.IT Thu Apr 22 16:35:14 2004 From: a.aimi at TISCALINET.IT (antonio aimi) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:35:14 +0200 Subject: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: Dear colleagues, this one is an old topic. as far as I know the first to make the count was Sherburne Cook in 1946 (he gives the same time: two minutes each per sacrifice- all the references are in Hugh Thomas). Counting time and counting skulls (Ortiz, 1983) can be interesting, but requires good sense, the ceremonial center of Tenochtitlan was not an industrial butchery. Have you an idea of what requires and means to deal with so many bodies ? The figures of some codices are impossible. According to mexica rituals and some chronicles, I think it can be likely the number of 5000 for whole Tenochtitlan each year. Antonio Aimi. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swood at DARKWING.UOREGON.EDU Thu Apr 22 18:02:20 2004 From: swood at DARKWING.UOREGON.EDU (Stephanie Wood) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:02:20 -0700 Subject: Az: Current Info, Excavations, etc Message-ID: We at the Wired Humanities Project at the University of Oregon are building something we call the Virtual Mesoamerican Archive, with online searchable databases of three sorts: first, a way to find out what are the holdings of all museums, archives, and libraries anywhere in the world with primary source material and three-dimensional objects from Mesoamerica; second. a way to find quality digitized materials that are already on line; and third, to locate quality, scholarly web sites that include study of primary source materials. The idea it to not only create a much more efficient Google-like tool for Mesoamericanists but also to provide encouragement for digitization. We are only in the early stages, but at some point we will put out a call for people who might be willing to contribute materials (many of you have wonderful slide collections of archaeological sites, for instance, or photocopies of manuscripts, etc.) and/or donate their time. This is all being done on a non-profit basis, and we are applying for grants to help cover the high cost of creating this tool. We have several agreements with archives and museums already. Best wishes, Stephanie Wood From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM Thu Apr 22 19:47:14 2004 From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:47:14 +0200 Subject: Oops! Message-ID: Oops! Sorry for having sent a personal message to Frances through the Nahuatl list! I pressed the send button too soon without realizing. Susana Moraleda From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM Thu Apr 22 20:12:02 2004 From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:12:02 +0200 Subject: three doubts Message-ID: Hello Fran! Thanks a lot for your reply. You are always so marvelous!! I have another question: What happens when you place the third-person singular possessive prefix to a word starting with a vowel? ialtepeuh? iez? iicniuh? iocelo? I had written to you in the past just to let you know that I hadn't forgotten you, and that I cherish happy souvenirs of the Nahuatl course I attended with you in Helsinki, but I am afraid you didn't receive my messages. Please do let me know how you are, what are you up to, and how is Albert. I send you a big hug, Love, Susana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frances Karttunen" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 9:58 PM Subject: Re: three doubts > Hello Susana! > > > (1) Plural reverential forms > > Should one add the plural suffix to a noun and then the singular > > reverential? NANTINTZIN? > > or plural suffix and plural reverential? NANTINTZITZIN? > > or no plural suffix and just plural reverential? NANTZITZIN? > > The honorific goes between the noun stem and the absolutive suffix (singular > or plural). The honorific suffix reduplicates in the plural. Singular > -tzin-tli; plural -tzitzin-tin. In possessed forms, the singular is -tzin > and the plural is -tzitzin-huan. > > > > 2) Stems > > Is there a rule saying that whenever there are two vowels at the end of a > > stem (i.e. TOCAITL, MAITL, TEMACHTIANI) one is to delete the last vowel > > (TOCA, MA, TEMACHTI) ? > > No. A number of "small" words like tocaitl and maitl drop the -i- as well > as the absolutive suffix to form the stem (toca-, ma-). Temachtiani doesn't > drop anything. It's a noun derived from a verb, and doesn't take a singular > absolutive suffix (-tl or -in). The plural is formed either by adding a > final saltillo (temachtianih) or by suppletion (temachtihqueh). > > > > > > > 3) Endings > > Did nouns like CHICHI once have a traditional ending? (TL, TLI, LI, IN). > > No. It is thought to be a loan word. > > > Is the stem "chich"? > > No. It is chichi. > > > (chichitontli or chichtontli?) > > Chichiton. I don't think there would be anything wrong with chichitontli, > though. The plural is chichitotontin. > > > But this is just based on the body of classical Nahuatl texts. > Geographically and temporally there is lots of variation, so one can't > really say anything is absolutely right or wrong. > > > Fran > > From antonio.aimi at TIN.IT Fri Apr 23 13:38:58 2004 From: antonio.aimi at TIN.IT (antonio aimi) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:38:58 +0200 Subject: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: Dear colleagues, this one is an old topic. as far as I know the first to make the count was Sherburne Cook in 1946 (he gives the same time: two minutes each per sacrifice- all the references are in Hugh Thomas). Counting time and counting skulls (Ortiz, 1983) can be interesting, but requires good sense, the ceremonial center of Tenochtitlan was not an industrial butchery. Have you an idea of what requires and means to deal with so many bodies ? The figures of some codices are impossible. According to mexica rituals and some chronicles, I think it can be likely the number of 5000 for whole Tenochtitlan each year. Antonio Aimi. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Fri Apr 23 22:27:54 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:27:54 -0400 Subject: three doubts In-Reply-To: <03c201c428a6$55bb7fd0$629cd351@mexico> Message-ID: on 4/22/04 4:12 PM, Susana Moraleda-Dragotto at susana at DRAGOTTO.COM wrote: > Hello Fran! > Thanks a lot for your reply. You are always so marvelous!! I have > another > question: What happens when you place the third-person singular possessive > prefix to a word starting with a vowel? > ialtepeuh? > iez? > iicniuh? > iocelo? When the third person singular possessive prefix i:- (long vowel) is added to a stem beginning with i, in principle there are three morae (i:-i), but Nahuatl does not distinguish long vowels from overlong vowels, so perceptually i:-i is equivalent to simple i:-. > > I had written to you in the past just to let you know that I hadn't > forgotten you, and that I cherish happy souvenirs of the Nahuatl course I > attended with you in Helsinki, but I am afraid you didn't receive my > messages. I suppose I haven't, and I am sorry I didn't get your messages. That was a food time in Helsinki. Al says hello. He recalls our supper with you in Rome with great fondness. Fran From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Fri Apr 23 23:33:35 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:33:35 -0500 Subject: three doubts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Susana, One common strategy that would apply well to the i:ez and i:altepeuh examples you cite is to fuse the possessive to in, such as inialtepeuh, or sometimes just nialtepeuh to elmininate the awkwardness of two open vowels; also a "y" would be likely to be introduced in i:ez -- niyez. These strategies at least have been common in Tlaxcala although I can't attest for other regions. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM Wed Apr 28 16:21:57 2004 From: Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM (Ian Mursell) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:21:57 +0100 Subject: appeal for help and encouragement! In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20040309112242.01f0e4f8@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I've been a passive member of this list for some time. I hope now to seek your interest and help with an educational service on Aztec culture based here in London, UK. Mexicolore is a specialist independent educational service on Mexico and the Aztecs, established in London in 1980. Our team have worked in over 1,000 schools, museums, art galleries, and other educational venues throughout England, working with some 100,000 children. We work closely with the British Museum Education Service, the Museum of Mankind (BM Ethnography Department) and most recently with the Royal Academy of Arts, in support of their major exhibition on the Aztecs that ended a year ago. I think it's safe to say that we are the leading providers of educational services on the Aztecs in this country, and our website is a prime source of information and links, not only for schools but for all those interested in learning about Aztec civilization. We have just uploaded a new 'Aztec Pronunciation' page on our site, to enable enquirers - particularly children - to check the pronunciation of key 'Aztec' names and words that frequently feature in project work on the Aztecs. My main concern at this stage is simple verification! I'm keen to correct and improve any errors, to the best of my ability. Please remember that this resource is VERY introductory, and perfection is perhaps not needed! However, we intend to add constantly to this page both in quantity and quality, with plenty of background material on Náhuatl. I would be hugely grateful if one or more of you, as experts, could cast a beady eye/ear over the page and let me have your immediate comments, suggestions, criticisms... I'm not sure how I can access the correct sounds, assuming there are errors, but I'm confident we could find a way to resolve this. Many thanks in anticipation... Best regards y muchos saludos desde Londres Ian Ian Mursell Director Mexicolore 28 Warriner Gardens London SW11 4EB, U.K. Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 3643 www.mexicolore.co.uk Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com Bringing Mexico and the Aztecs to life in schools and museums throughout England - and now via the internet! - since 1980 From institute at CSUMB.EDU Wed Apr 28 17:45:13 2004 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:45:13 -0700 Subject: appeal for help and encouragement! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nahua language and culture discussion writes: >Dear Colleagues, > >I've been a passive member of this list for some time. I hope now to seek >your interest and help with an educational service on Aztec culture based >here in London, UK. > >Mexicolore is a specialist independent educational service on Mexico and the >Aztecs, established in London in 1980. Our team have worked in over 1,000 >schools, museums, art galleries, and other educational venues throughout >England, working with some 100,000 children. We work closely with the >British Museum Education Service, the Museum of Mankind (BM Ethnography >Department) and most recently with the Royal Academy of Arts, in support of >their major exhibition on the Aztecs that ended a year ago. > >I think it's safe to say that we are the leading providers of educational >services on the Aztecs in this country, and our website is a prime source of >information and links, not only for schools but for all those interested in >learning about Aztec civilization. > >We have just uploaded a new 'Aztec Pronunciation' page on our site, to >enable enquirers - particularly children - to check the pronunciation of key >'Aztec' names and words that frequently feature in project work on the >Aztecs. > >My main concern at this stage is simple verification! I'm keen to correct >and improve any errors, to the best of my ability. Please remember that >this resource is VERY introductory, and perfection is perhaps not needed! >However, we intend to add constantly to this page both in quantity and >quality, with plenty of background material on Náhuatl. > >I would be hugely grateful if one or more of you, as experts, could cast a >beady eye/ear over the page and let me have your immediate comments, >suggestions, criticisms... > >I'm not sure how I can access the correct sounds, assuming there are errors, >but I'm confident we could find a way to resolve this. > >Many thanks in anticipation... > >Best regards y muchos saludos desde Londres > >Ian > >Ian Mursell >Director >Mexicolore >28 Warriner Gardens >London SW11 4EB, U.K. >Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577 >Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 3643 >www.mexicolore.co.uk >Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com > >Bringing Mexico and the Aztecs to life in schools and museums throughout >England - and now via the internet! - since 1980 > >-- >This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn >more about virus protection at CSUMB, visit: > >http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ > Dear Ian, I quickly perused your Nahuatl glossary and was impressed with the fact that it has an audio component. While other audio glossaries exist for many indigenous languages, such as Dene or Navajo, your overview of terms for grade school kids provides a wonderful introduction to the language via the pronunciation of key terms. On another note, the only terms with which I sensed a variation from standard Mexica forms were those specific to Telpohcalli and Petate/metate. Depending on the regional variant of Nahuatl used (e.g., Veracruz nahuatl usage), I suspect that the variation may be accommodated as noted. Otherwise, good luck on your project. Best Regards, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. From Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM Wed Apr 28 21:57:05 2004 From: Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM (Ian Mursell) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 22:57:05 +0100 Subject: appeal for help and encouragement! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Nahua language and culture discussion writes: >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> I've been a passive member of this list for some time. I hope now to seek >> your interest and help with an educational service on Aztec culture based >> here in London, UK. >> >> Mexicolore is a specialist independent educational service on Mexico and the >> Aztecs, established in London in 1980. Our team have worked in over 1,000 >> schools, museums, art galleries, and other educational venues throughout >> England, working with some 100,000 children. We work closely with the >> British Museum Education Service, the Museum of Mankind (BM Ethnography >> Department) and most recently with the Royal Academy of Arts, in support of >> their major exhibition on the Aztecs that ended a year ago. >> >> I think it's safe to say that we are the leading providers of educational >> services on the Aztecs in this country, and our website is a prime source of >> information and links, not only for schools but for all those interested in >> learning about Aztec civilization. >> >> We have just uploaded a new 'Aztec Pronunciation' page on our site, to >> enable enquirers - particularly children - to check the pronunciation of key >> 'Aztec' names and words that frequently feature in project work on the >> Aztecs. >> >> My main concern at this stage is simple verification! I'm keen to correct >> and improve any errors, to the best of my ability. Please remember that >> this resource is VERY introductory, and perfection is perhaps not needed! >> However, we intend to add constantly to this page both in quantity and >> quality, with plenty of background material on Náhuatl. >> >> I would be hugely grateful if one or more of you, as experts, could cast a >> beady eye/ear over the page and let me have your immediate comments, >> suggestions, criticisms... >> >> I'm not sure how I can access the correct sounds, assuming there are errors, >> but I'm confident we could find a way to resolve this. >> >> Many thanks in anticipation... >> >> Best regards y muchos saludos desde Londres >> >> Ian >> >> Ian Mursell >> Director >> Mexicolore >> 28 Warriner Gardens >> London SW11 4EB, U.K. >> Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577 >> Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 3643 >> www.mexicolore.co.uk >> Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com >> >> Bringing Mexico and the Aztecs to life in schools and museums throughout >> England - and now via the internet! - since 1980 >> >> -- >> This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous >> attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening >> attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn >> more about virus protection at CSUMB, visit: >> >> http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ >> > Dear Ian, > > I quickly perused your Nahuatl glossary and was impressed with the fact > that it has an audio component. While other audio glossaries exist for many > indigenous languages, such as Dene or Navajo, > your overview of terms for grade school kids provides a wonderful introduction > to the language via the pronunciation of key terms. > > On another note, the only terms with which I sensed a variation from > standard Mexica forms were those specific to Telpohcalli and Petate/metate. > Depending on the regional variant of Nahuatl used > (e.g., Veracruz nahuatl usage), I suspect that the variation may be > accommodated as noted. Otherwise, good luck on your project. > > Best Regards, > > Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director > Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization > Social and Behavioral Sciences > California State University Monterey Bay > 100 Campus Center > Seaside, California 93955-8001 > > Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu > Voice: 831-582-3760 > Fax: 831-582-3566 > http://archaeology.csumb.edu > http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ > > > > > > Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is > sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the > use of the individual or entity named above. > If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, > copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is > prohibited. If you received this communication > in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the > original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any > network to which your computer is connected. > > Thank you. Dear Ruben, Thank you very much indeed for your comments, and for taking the trouble. I'm relieved and encouraged that we seem to be on the right track. I think I see the mistake in 'telpohcalli' - should it be 'telpochcalli'? But I'm confused over petate/metate, except that you've drawn attention to the fact that I should have written them in the Náhuatl 'petlatl' and 'metlatl'. Is this what you meant? Sorry to be naïve on this. Kind regards, Ian Ian Mursell Director Mexicolore 28 Warriner Gardens London SW11 4EB, U.K. Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 3643 www.mexicolore.co.uk Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com Bringing Mexico and the Aztecs to life in schools and museums throughout England - and now via the internet! - since 1980 From institute at CSUMB.EDU Wed Apr 28 23:42:44 2004 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 16:42:44 -0700 Subject: appeal for help and encouragement! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nahua language and culture discussion writes: >I think I see the mistake in 'telpohcalli' - should it be 'telpochcalli'? >But I'm confused over petate/metate, except that you've drawn attention to >the fact that I should have written them in the Náhuatl 'petlatl' and >'metlatl'. Is this what you meant? Sorry to be naïve on this. > >Kind regards, > >Ian Dear Ian, Telpochcalli is the standard...although, once again, variations may occur depending on your sources. And, where petate/metate is concerned, the spelling is what essentially needs to be changed...although the pronunciation is good. Best Wishes, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. From MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM Thu Apr 29 07:13:23 2004 From: MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM (Maria) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 00:13:23 -0700 Subject: appeal for help and encouragement! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello, I visited Ian´s page and loved it. I understood xocoatl meant xoco, amargo/sour and atl agua/water. Agua amarga... me equivoco o la "l" vino de la fonética latina. I thought too the accent on tomatl should fall on atl. Can someone explain to me the literal meaning of petate and metate? I know they are a floor mat and a grinder but I want to analyze the words. I loved having the possibility of a sounding glossary. I am tempted to copy the idea. Thanks. María Dolores "We don´t see things as they are, We see things as we are." Anais Nin Dr. María D. Bolívar MBOLIVAR at san.rr.com From robert at COATLI.COM Thu Apr 29 10:04:35 2004 From: robert at COATLI.COM (robert barkaloff) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 03:04:35 -0700 Subject: petate and metate In-Reply-To: <001101c42db9$760c3e10$8fcc4a42@Main> Message-ID: Maria wrote: >Hello, I visited Ian´s page and loved it. > >I understood xocoatl meant xoco, amargo/sour and atl agua/water. Agua >amarga... me equivoco o la "l" vino de la fonética latina. > >I thought too the accent on tomatl should fall on atl. >Can someone explain to me the literal meaning of petate and metate? I >know they are a floor mat and a grinder but I want to analyze the words. > >I loved having the possibility of a sounding glossary. I am tempted to >copy the idea. Thanks. > >María Dolores > > >"We don´t see things as they are, >We see things as we are." >Anais Nin > >Dr. María D. Bolívar >MBOLIVAR at san.rr.com > > > > H everyone, With regards to Maria Bolivar's question, here are some conjectures: I believe "petate" is from "petl-atl," or "water rock," or, something that can make stone feel as soft as water. I think "metate" is from "metl-atl," or "moon-water." I'm not as convinced about this metaphor, but I think maybe it has to do with creating the water (atl) from which the moon (metl) is created -- the moon being "tlaxcalli (tortilla)." It will be interesting to see others' notes on this. Robert Barkaloff From dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX Thu Apr 29 13:25:30 2004 From: dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX (David Wright) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 08:25:30 -0500 Subject: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli Message-ID: Dear Ian: Nice site. I think there are some phonetic problems with the four words containing the morpheme tecuh(tli) ("Mictlantecuhtli", "Tlaltecuhtli" and "Moctezuma"). The way the first two are spelled, as I (think I) understand it, reflects one of the imprecisions of colonial Nahuatl othography. There's really no /u/ in 16th century central Nahuatl except as an allophone of /o/, but in "tecuhtli" this allophone is not represented. The digraphs "cu", "qu" and "uc", when they appear in colonial texts, all represent a consonant, not a syllable. This phoneme is a sort of /k/ pronounced with rounded lips, which can be written phonetically as /kw/ (superscript w). Thus "tecuhtli" (also spelled "teuctli" in many sources), is really /tekwtli/ (superscript w). The "h" in "tecuhtli" adds to the confusion. It's probably there because the digraphs "hu" and "uh" were used to write the semiconsonant /w/, which puts the lips in the same position as /kw/, ignoring what's going on behind them. Solution? It would be less confusing to spell these words as Mictlanteuctli, Tlalteuctli and Moteuczoma. These forms are found in colonial and modern literature, so they don't break with the traditional orthography you use in the other words. "Moctezuma" can be scrapped, both in the written and the audio files, since it's not a Nahuatl word, just a loan from Nahuatl to Castillian. There are people on this list that know more about Nahuatl phonology than I do; if you're reading this, please correct me if I'm wrong (or too confident on a topic as hypothetical as 16th century pronunciation; all of the people who wrote the texts are dead and unavailable for consultation). Peace, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Apr 29 13:28:00 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:28:00 -0400 Subject: petate and metate In-Reply-To: <4090D333.2010103@coatli.com> Message-ID: >> >> I thought too the accent on tomatl should fall on atl. The stress in basic Nahuatl falls on the penultimate syllable (except in some dialects where final syllables have been lost, and under some other contextual circumstances). When a Nahuatl word is borrowed into Spanish, the stress more often than not gets moved: TO-matl > to-MA-te; ME-tlatl > me-TA-te; PE-tlatl > pe-TA-te, etc. The same is true of borrowings in the other direction: SA-ba-do 'Saturday' > xa-PA-toh. > > I believe "petate" is from "petl-atl," or "water rock," or, something > that can make stone feel as soft as water. I think "metate" is from > "metl-atl," or "moon-water." I'm not as convinced about this metaphor, > but I think maybe it has to do with creating the water (atl) from which > the moon (metl) is created -- the moon being "tlaxcalli (tortilla)." > These are attractive metaphors, but they fall into the realm of what is known as folk etymology. Simeon's dictionary contains quite a number of such etymologies, which is why we need to be careful about what we find in dictionaries, even venerable old ones that are, for the most part, full of reliable information. From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Apr 29 14:01:35 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:01:35 -0500 Subject: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli In-Reply-To: <008b01c42ded$7824e740$5c56e994@dcwright> Message-ID: Quoting David Wright : > Dear Ian: > > Nice site. I think there are some phonetic problems with the four words > containing the morpheme tecuh(tli) ("Mictlantecuhtli", "Tlaltecuhtli" and > "Moctezuma"). The way the first two are spelled, as I (think I) understand > it, reflects one of the imprecisions of colonial Nahuatl othography. There's > really no /u/ in 16th century central Nahuatl except as an allophone of /o/, > but in "tecuhtli" this allophone is not represented. The digraphs "cu", "qu" > and "uc", when they appear in colonial texts, all represent a consonant, not > a syllable. This phoneme is a sort of /k/ pronounced with rounded lips, which > can be written phonetically as /kw/ (superscript w). Thus "tecuhtli" (also > spelled "teuctli" in many sources), is really /tekwtli/ (superscript w). The > "h" in "tecuhtli" adds to the confusion. It's probably there because the > digraphs "hu" and "uh" were used to write the semiconsonant /w/, which puts > the lips in the same position as /kw/, ignoring what's going on behind them. I haven't had the time yet to look at your site, but Dave has made some excellent points, Ian. The only thing I would add is vowel length. Since vowel length is phonemic in Nahuatl, Dave's phonemic /tekwtli/ is actually /te:kwtli/, where the digraphs /kw/ and /tl/ are actually unit phonemes (and thus in actual, "vigorous" linguistic transcription would each be represented by a single symbol, in the first case by a k with superscript w and in the second case by a Greek lambda. > > Solution? It would be less confusing to spell these words as Mictlanteuctli, > Tlalteuctli and Moteuczoma. These forms are found in colonial and modern > literature, so they don't break with the traditional orthography you use in > the other words. "Moctezuma" can be scrapped, both in the written and the > audio files, since it's not a Nahuatl word, just a loan from Nahuatl to > Castillian. All good points. Michael From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Apr 29 14:04:46 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:04:46 -0500 Subject: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli In-Reply-To: <1083247295.40910abfb1767@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I should have added that "teuctli" is composed of only *two* syllables: /te:kw-/ + /-tli/, and, of course, the penultimate syllable is strong. The pronunciation of this word and others noted by Dave is "exotic" for speakers of European languages and require some practice to master. Michael On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > Quoting David Wright : > > > Dear Ian: > > > > Nice site. I think there are some phonetic problems with the four words > > containing the morpheme tecuh(tli) ("Mictlantecuhtli", "Tlaltecuhtli" and > > "Moctezuma"). The way the first two are spelled, as I (think I) understand > > it, reflects one of the imprecisions of colonial Nahuatl othography. There's > > really no /u/ in 16th century central Nahuatl except as an allophone of /o/, > > but in "tecuhtli" this allophone is not represented. The digraphs "cu", "qu" > > and "uc", when they appear in colonial texts, all represent a consonant, not > > a syllable. This phoneme is a sort of /k/ pronounced with rounded lips, which > > can be written phonetically as /kw/ (superscript w). Thus "tecuhtli" (also > > spelled "teuctli" in many sources), is really /tekwtli/ (superscript w). The > > "h" in "tecuhtli" adds to the confusion. It's probably there because the > > digraphs "hu" and "uh" were used to write the semiconsonant /w/, which puts > > the lips in the same position as /kw/, ignoring what's going on behind them. > > I haven't had the time yet to look at your site, but > Dave has made some excellent points, Ian. The only thing I would add is vowel > length. Since vowel length is phonemic in Nahuatl, Dave's phonemic /tekwtli/ is > actually /te:kwtli/, where the digraphs /kw/ and /tl/ are actually unit > phonemes (and thus in actual, "vigorous" linguistic transcription would each be > represented by a single symbol, in the first case by a k with superscript w and > in the second case by a Greek lambda. > > > > > Solution? It would be less confusing to spell these words as Mictlanteuctli, > > Tlalteuctli and Moteuczoma. These forms are found in colonial and modern > > literature, so they don't break with the traditional orthography you use in > > the other words. "Moctezuma" can be scrapped, both in the written and the > > audio files, since it's not a Nahuatl word, just a loan from Nahuatl to > > Castillian. > > All good points. > > Michael "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM Thu Apr 29 14:08:07 2004 From: Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM (Ian Mursell) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 15:08:07 +0100 Subject: appeal for help and encouragement! In-Reply-To: <001101c42db9$760c3e10$8fcc4a42@Main> Message-ID: Hello all. Though I've replied individually to some respondents who've written to me directly, I'd just like to say at this point a big Thank-you to everyone who is contributing to this thread. I'm learning so much from it all, and of course will shortly be making some corrections to the site. Please keep it flowing...! Saludos, Ian PS. What might be a 'standard' equivalent of 'Saludos' in Náhuatl? Is there one, or could someone offer a simple greeting I could add to the site? When I was in San Isidro Buensuceso back in the early '70s, I learnt to say (if I remember right) 'Tlen conchihua?' to which people generally replied 'Amuntla' - i.e. The greeting went 'What are you doing?' 'Nothing'. How widespread is this? I'm hoping to learn and upload a greeting with a slightly more culturally positive ring to it!! Perhaps there's a Náhuatl equivalent to the Spanish 'Como amaneciste?' Ian Mursell Director Mexicolore 28 Warriner Gardens London SW11 4EB, U.K. Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 3643 www.mexicolore.co.uk Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com Bringing Mexico and the Aztecs to life in schools and museums throughout England - and now via the internet! - since 1980 From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Thu Apr 29 14:25:36 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 15:25:36 +0100 Subject: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael Mccafferty wrote: > I should have added that "teuctli" is composed of only *two* syllables: > /te:kw-/ + /-tli/, and, of course, the penultimate syllable is strong. > The pronunciation of this word and others noted by Dave is "exotic" for > speakers of European languages and require some practice to master. Someone raised this matter a year or two ago. I advised him to say [te_cuatli], stressed on the [e_], and then to gradually get rid of the [a] without letting the [w] disappear or turn into [u]. (This is probably very off topic, but people who decide to get interested with the Klingon language that Marc Okrand invented, there also have to cross swords with the [tl] sound.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Apr 29 14:29:17 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:29:17 -0500 Subject: appeal for help and encouragement! In-Reply-To: <001101c42db9$760c3e10$8fcc4a42@Main> Message-ID: At 02:13 AM 4/29/2004, you wrote: >I thought too the accent on tomatl should fall on atl. In Nahuatl the stress always falls on the next-to-last syllable, with only one exception, the vocative form. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Apr 29 14:33:21 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:33:21 -0500 Subject: petate and metate In-Reply-To: <4090D333.2010103@coatli.com> Message-ID: At 05:04 AM 4/29/2004, you wrote: >I believe "petate" is from "petl-atl," or "water rock," or, something >that can make stone feel as soft as water. I think "metate" is from >"metl-atl," or "moon-water." I'm not as convinced about this metaphor, >but I think maybe it has to do with creating the water (atl) from which >the moon (metl) is created -- the moon being "tlaxcalli (tortilla)." No. Metlatl and petlatl are not "from" anything. They just are. The moon is mixtli. Metaphorically or symbolically it might be compared to a tortilla, just as we refer top it as green cheese. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Apr 29 15:31:29 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 10:31:29 -0500 Subject: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli In-Reply-To: <20040429142536.35546.qmail@web86302.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Quoting ANTHONY APPLEYARD : > Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > I should have added that "teuctli" is composed of only *two* syllables: > > /te:kw-/ + /-tli/, and, of course, the penultimate syllable is strong. > > The pronunciation of this word and others noted by Dave is "exotic" for > > speakers of European languages and require some practice to master. > Michael says: I didn't receive this posting or the one I sent that preceded it. In any event, here is what I wrote that preceded it: "I haven't had the time yet to look at your site, but Dave has made some excellent points, Ian. The only thing I would add is vowel length. Since vowel length is phonemic in Nahuatl, Dave's phonemic /tekwtli/ is actually /te:kwtli/, where the digraphs /kw/ and /tl/ are actually unit phonemes (and thus in actual, "vigorous" linguistic transcription would each be represented by a single symbol, in the first case by a k with superscript w and in the second case by a Greek lambda." > Someone raised this matter a year or two ago. I advised him to say > [te_cuatli], stressed on the [e_], and then to gradually get rid of the [a] > without letting the [w] disappear or turn into [u]. > > Interesting. I've had success just teaching students to first learn to say [te:kw-], which is not that hard. Then I have them say [-tli] several times. And then combine the two sounds. In truth, I don't think there is really any challenge in learning how to ** pronounce** "teuctli" and "Moteuczoma," etc. The challenge is learning how to not get distracted by the orthography. The sounds are easy. Michael > From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Apr 29 15:55:41 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 11:55:41 -0400 Subject: petate and metate In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040429093124.01c7cf28@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: > The moon is mixtli. Actually mixtli is 'cloud.' From micc2 at COX.NET Thu Apr 29 16:43:34 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (Mario E. Aguilar) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:43:34 -0400 Subject: petate and metate Message-ID: I thought that it was "me:ztli" I thought "mixtli" was cloud...... as in Mixteco > > No. Metlatl and petlatl are not "from" anything. They just are. The moon > is mixtli. Metaphorically or symbolically it might be compared to a > tortilla, just as we refer top it as green cheese. > > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at mrs.umn.edu > From micc2 at COX.NET Thu Apr 29 16:49:16 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (Mario E. Aguilar) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:49:16 -0400 Subject: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli Message-ID: Especially when the remedy "teuctli" is worse than the ailment "tecutli" I have hear novices try to say te-uc-tli and think that that is correct. I would rather have people say te-cu-tli (closer to the real te-Kw-tl) and later try to explain live and in person the "exotic" sound of Kw! > > From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU > Date: 2004/04/29 Thu AM 11:31:29 EDT > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Re: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli > > Quoting ANTHONY APPLEYARD : > > > Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > > I should have added that "teuctli" is composed of only *two* syllables: > > > /te:kw-/ + /-tli/, and, of course, the penultimate syllable is strong. > > > The pronunciation of this word and others noted by Dave is "exotic" for > > > speakers of European languages and require some practice to master. > > > > Michael says: > > I didn't receive this posting or the one I sent that preceded it. In any event, > here is what I wrote that preceded it: > > "I haven't had the time yet to look at your site, but > Dave has made some excellent points, Ian. The only thing I would add is vowel > length. Since vowel length is phonemic in Nahuatl, Dave's phonemic /tekwtli/ is > actually /te:kwtli/, where the digraphs /kw/ and /tl/ are actually unit > phonemes (and thus in actual, "vigorous" linguistic transcription would each be > represented by a single symbol, in the first case by a k with superscript w and > in the second case by a Greek lambda." > > > > > > > Someone raised this matter a year or two ago. I advised him to say > > [te_cuatli], stressed on the [e_], and then to gradually get rid of the [a] > > without letting the [w] disappear or turn into [u]. > > > > > Interesting. I've had success just teaching students to first learn to say > [te:kw-], which is not that hard. Then I have them say [-tli] several times. > And then combine the two sounds. > > In truth, I don't think there is really any challenge in learning how to ** > pronounce** "teuctli" and "Moteuczoma," etc. The challenge is learning how to > not get distracted by the orthography. The sounds are easy. > > Michael > > > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Apr 29 16:59:38 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 11:59:38 -0500 Subject: petate and metate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: the word for moon is /me:tztli/. On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Frances Karttunen wrote: > > The moon is mixtli. > > Actually mixtli is 'cloud.' > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Apr 29 17:09:01 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:09:01 -0500 Subject: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli In-Reply-To: <20040429164916.USEY559.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> Message-ID: Quoting "" : > Especially when the remedy "teuctli" is worse than the ailment "tecutli" I > have hear novices try to say > te-uc-tli and think that that is correct. I would rather have people say > te-cu-tli (closer to the real te-Kw-tl) and later try to explain live and in > person the "exotic" sound of Kw! But it is important to remember that, in teaching the erroneous pronunciation "te-cu-tli," you are also engraving in their memories the possibility that -tli is added to stems that end in vowels, which is not true. -tli is added to stems that end in consonants, which is exactly what /te:kw-/ is. The pronunciation of [te:kw-] is as simple as pie to teach and to learn. I teach it to my students in 30 seconds. As I noted earlier, the problem is really not pronunciation; the problem is a confusing orthography. However, if the teacher does not have a firm grasp of Nahuatl phonetics, then the student may not have the opportunity to learn the pronunciation correctly. Michael > > > > > > > From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU > > Date: 2004/04/29 Thu AM 11:31:29 EDT > > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > > Subject: Re: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli > > > > Quoting ANTHONY APPLEYARD : > > > > > Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > > > I should have added that "teuctli" is composed of only *two* > syllables: > > > > /te:kw-/ + /-tli/, and, of course, the penultimate syllable is strong. > > > > The pronunciation of this word and others noted by Dave is "exotic" > for > > > > speakers of European languages and require some practice to master. > > > > > > > Michael says: > > > > I didn't receive this posting or the one I sent that preceded it. In any > event, > > here is what I wrote that preceded it: > > > > "I haven't had the time yet to look at your site, but > > Dave has made some excellent points, Ian. The only thing I would add is > vowel > > length. Since vowel length is phonemic in Nahuatl, Dave's phonemic > /tekwtli/ is > > actually /te:kwtli/, where the digraphs /kw/ and /tl/ are actually unit > > phonemes (and thus in actual, "vigorous" linguistic transcription would > each be > > represented by a single symbol, in the first case by a k with superscript w > and > > in the second case by a Greek lambda." > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone raised this matter a year or two ago. I advised him to say > > > [te_cuatli], stressed on the [e_], and then to gradually get rid of the > [a] > > > without letting the [w] disappear or turn into [u]. > > > > > > > > Interesting. I've had success just teaching students to first learn to say > > [te:kw-], which is not that hard. Then I have them say [-tli] several > times. > > And then combine the two sounds. > > > > In truth, I don't think there is really any challenge in learning how to > ** > > pronounce** "teuctli" and "Moteuczoma," etc. The challenge is learning how > to > > not get distracted by the orthography. The sounds are easy. > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Apr 29 18:21:48 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 13:21:48 -0500 Subject: petate and metate In-Reply-To: <20040429164334.XKTN14138.fed1rmmtao02.cox.net@smtp.west.co x.net> Message-ID: At 11:43 AM 4/29/2004, you wrote: >I thought that it was "me:ztli" >I thought "mixtli" was cloud...... as in Mixteco > > > > > > No. Metlatl and petlatl are not "from" anything. They just are. The moon > > is mixtli. Metaphorically or symbolically it might be compared to a > > tortilla, just as we refer top it as green cheese My error. It is just proof that the fingers should not be put into gear until the brain is fully functional My apologies John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From drd30 at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Apr 29 18:40:50 2004 From: drd30 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Dan Deneen) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 14:40:50 -0400 Subject: Malintzin Message-ID: Might I get some of you to weigh in on a question about the name Malintzin/Malinche? The Spanish chroniclers tell us that Cortés and his interpreter were both called “Malinche” (“Malintzin.”) Frances Kartunnen argued (1997) that both of them may have been seen as ixiptla for a previously obscure, or unknown, divine entity itself called, “Malintzin”. This has been the most interesting and persuasive of the explanations I’ve come across, and I’d love to know if Ms. Kartunnen has had an opportunity to further develop the argument, or if any of this distinguished company might have thoughts on the naming. And, more specifically: are there indigenous sources which apply the name, “Malintzin” to both Marina and Cortes? Are there other examples of prominent linked figures bearing the same name? What of Bernal D del C's note that a soldier (often in the company of Marina) named Juan Perez de Arteaga was also called "Malinche?" And finally, what if anything, might have been the grammatical distinctions made in speaking third-person about Malintzin (him), Malintzin (her), and Malintzin (the god??) Thanks, Dan --a longtime "lurker" on Nahuat-L, finally piping up Dan Deneen Strafford, Vermont www.deneenstreet.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Apr 29 19:16:11 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 15:16:11 -0400 Subject: Malintzin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > What if anything, might have been the grammatical distinctions made in > speaking third-person about Malintzin (him), Malintzin (her), and Malintzin > (the god??) No morphological distinctions at all that I can think of. In Nahuatl there are grammatical distinctions based on human/nonhuman, animate/inanimate, and specific/nonspecific, but not human/superhuman. Nahuatl makes no masculine/feminine third-person distinction. There is a distinction between male vocative and female vocative, but that refers to the speaker, not to who/what is spoken of. And the honorific -tzin is there in all three cases. Can anyone on the list think of any subtle difference between mentioning a human honorifically and mentioning a deity? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrharri1 at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Thu Apr 29 20:00:28 2004 From: mrharri1 at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (MAX R HARRIS) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 15:00:28 -0500 Subject: Malintzin Message-ID: Dan, I know of no other sources that call both Cortes and his mistress/translator Malinche. The most persuasive explanation I've come across for the Nahua giving Cortes his female translator's name (assuming Bernal Diaz's account is correct on this detail) is that it was she who spoke for him, i.e. she is his voice, so he bears her name. (Unfortunately, I can't remember the source of this explanation: I suspect it was offered verbally at a conference rather than published anywhere!) Whether it diminished Cortes in the Nahua mind to give him a female interpreter's name, I don't know. I have, however, made several lengthy attempts to understand the role of Malinche in Mesoamerican danzas. The Malinche of the dances is emphatically not Cortes's translator, but generally either partners Moctezuma (in conquest dances) or is independent. The notion of Malinche as an ixiptla in this context is not a bad one. Her name in the dances may derive, like the mountain in the state of Tlaxcala now known as La Malinche, from a pre-Christian deity, Matlalcueye. But it may also derive from the imported Spanish "deity," the Virgin Mary. "Blessed Maria" becomes in Nahuatl "Malintzin," or, in hispancized Nahautl, "Malinche." That the name Maringuilla, or "little Mary," is often substituted for Malinche in the danzas, perhaps suggests that the link with the Virgin is more likely. But the two derivations are not mutually exclusive. If you're interested, you can read my developing thoughts on the Malinche of the dances at greater length in: "Moctezuma's Daughter: The Role of La Malinche in Mesoamerican Dance," The Journal of American Folklore 109 (1996):149-177 "Sweet Moll and Malinche: Maid Marian Goes to Mexico," in Playing Robin Hood: The Legend as Performance in Five Centuries, ed. Lois Potter (Associated University Presses, 1998), 101-110. Aztecs, Moors, and Christians: Festivals of Reconquest in Mexico and Spain (University of Texas Press, 2000), 237-250 Carnival and Other Christian Festivals: Folk Theology and Folk Performance (University of Texas Press, 2003), 50-64. The latter pieces modify and (I hope) correct the earlier in ceryain details. As for the historical Malinche, my own best guess at this point would be that her baptismal name was Maria, to which the Nahua honorific -tzin was added in recognition of her stature as Cortes's mouthpiece, so becoming, in Nahuatl, "Malintzin," and, in hispanicized Nahuatl, "Malinche." In other words, her name slid from Maria to Malinche just like the Virgin Mary after whom she was renamed at her baptism. Best wishes, Max Max Harris, Executive Director Wisconsin Humanities Council 222 South Bedford Street, Suite F Madison, WI 53703 Tel: 608/262-0706 Fax: 608/263-7970 ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Deneen Date: Thursday, April 29, 2004 1:40 pm Subject: Malintzin > Might I get some of you to weigh in on a question about the name > Malintzin/Malinche? The Spanish chroniclers tell us that Cortés > and his > interpreter were both called ?Malinche? (?Malintzin.?) Frances > Kartunnenargued (1997) that both of them may have been seen as > ixiptla for a > previously obscure, or unknown, divine entity itself called, > ?Malintzin?.This has been the most interesting and persuasive of > the explanations I?ve > come across, and I?d love to know if Ms. Kartunnen has had an > opportunityto further develop the argument, or if any of this > distinguished company > might have thoughts on the naming. And, more specifically: are there > indigenous sources which apply the name, ?Malintzin? to both > Marina and > Cortes? Are there other examples of prominent linked figures > bearing the > same name? What of Bernal D del C's note that a soldier (often in the > company of Marina) named Juan Perez de Arteaga was also called > "Malinche?"And finally, what if anything, might have been the > grammatical distinctions > made in speaking third-person about Malintzin (him), Malintzin > (her), and > Malintzin (the god??) > > Thanks, > > Dan --a longtime "lurker" on Nahuat-L, finally piping up > > > Dan Deneen > Strafford, Vermont > www.deneenstreet.com > From deneen at VALLEY.NET Thu Apr 29 22:17:53 2004 From: deneen at VALLEY.NET (Dan Deneen) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 18:17:53 -0400 Subject: Malintzin In-Reply-To: <27d822c056.2c05627d82@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: Max, The problem, though, with Bernal Diaz's account is that is doesn't square with indigenous sources; Sahagun, Book 12, has the interpreter called Malintzin, while Cortes is referred to only as the Capitan or the Marques. In fact, it is only if we bank on Bernal Diaz that there is a "problem" of the captain and his interpreter both being called "Malinche/Malintzin"---someone please tell me if I'm wrong, but isn't BD the only source for the shared name story? Who else calls Cortes "Malinche?" My earlier posting to the group is partly an effort to find some reason to hold on to Diaz's intriguing detail; but absent some evidence for a tradition of shared names in analogous circumstances, it seems that the best conclusion might just be that the old soldier was confused on this point. He is so emphatic on the point it is hard to imagine it being invented of whole cloth, but is there anything else to support him? I shall look forward to reading your book on Malinche in mesoamerican dance. Thanks for the tip. -Dan -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU]On Behalf Of MAX R HARRIS Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 3:00 PM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Malintzin Dan, I know of no other sources that call both Cortes and his mistress/translator Malinche. The most persuasive explanation I've come across for the Nahua giving Cortes his female translator's name (assuming Bernal Diaz's account is correct on this detail) is that it was she who spoke for him, i.e. she is his voice, so he bears her name. (Unfortunately, I can't remember the source of this explanation: I suspect it was offered verbally at a conference rather than published anywhere!) Whether it diminished Cortes in the Nahua mind to give him a female interpreter's name, I don't know. I have, however, made several lengthy attempts to understand the role of Malinche in Mesoamerican danzas. The Malinche of the dances is emphatically not Cortes's translator, but generally either partners Moctezuma (in conquest dances) or is independent. The notion of Malinche as an ixiptla in this context is not a bad one. Her name in the dances may derive, like the mountain in the state of Tlaxcala now known as La Malinche, from a pre-Christian deity, Matlalcueye. But it may also derive from the imported Spanish "deity," the Virgin Mary. "Blessed Maria" becomes in Nahuatl "Malintzin," or, in hispancized Nahautl, "Malinche." That the name Maringuilla, or "little Mary," is often substituted for Malinche in the danzas, perhaps suggests that the link with the Virgin is more likely. But the two derivations are not mutually exclusive. If you're interested, you can read my developing thoughts on the Malinche of the dances at greater length in: "Moctezuma's Daughter: The Role of La Malinche in Mesoamerican Dance," The Journal of American Folklore 109 (1996):149-177 "Sweet Moll and Malinche: Maid Marian Goes to Mexico," in Playing Robin Hood: The Legend as Performance in Five Centuries, ed. Lois Potter (Associated University Presses, 1998), 101-110. Aztecs, Moors, and Christians: Festivals of Reconquest in Mexico and Spain (University of Texas Press, 2000), 237-250 Carnival and Other Christian Festivals: Folk Theology and Folk Performance (University of Texas Press, 2003), 50-64. The latter pieces modify and (I hope) correct the earlier in ceryain details. As for the historical Malinche, my own best guess at this point would be that her baptismal name was Maria, to which the Nahua honorific -tzin was added in recognition of her stature as Cortes's mouthpiece, so becoming, in Nahuatl, "Malintzin," and, in hispanicized Nahuatl, "Malinche." In other words, her name slid from Maria to Malinche just like the Virgin Mary after whom she was renamed at her baptism. Best wishes, Max Max Harris, Executive Director Wisconsin Humanities Council 222 South Bedford Street, Suite F Madison, WI 53703 Tel: 608/262-0706 Fax: 608/263-7970 ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Deneen Date: Thursday, April 29, 2004 1:40 pm Subject: Malintzin > Might I get some of you to weigh in on a question about the name > Malintzin/Malinche? The Spanish chroniclers tell us that Cortés > and his > interpreter were both called ?Malinche? (?Malintzin.?) Frances > Kartunnenargued (1997) that both of them may have been seen as > ixiptla for a > previously obscure, or unknown, divine entity itself called, > ?Malintzin?.This has been the most interesting and persuasive of > the explanations I?ve > come across, and I?d love to know if Ms. Kartunnen has had an > opportunityto further develop the argument, or if any of this > distinguished company > might have thoughts on the naming. And, more specifically: are there > indigenous sources which apply the name, ?Malintzin? to both > Marina and > Cortes? Are there other examples of prominent linked figures > bearing the > same name? What of Bernal D del C's note that a soldier (often in the > company of Marina) named Juan Perez de Arteaga was also called > "Malinche?"And finally, what if anything, might have been the > grammatical distinctions > made in speaking third-person about Malintzin (him), Malintzin > (her), and > Malintzin (the god??) > > Thanks, > > Dan --a longtime "lurker" on Nahuat-L, finally piping up > > > Dan Deneen > Strafford, Vermont > www.deneenstreet.com > From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Fri Apr 30 17:25:20 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 12:25:20 -0500 Subject: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli In-Reply-To: <20040429164916.USEY559.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> Message-ID: As for teuctli being more misrepresenting than tecuhtli, I hold the opposite. At least as I pronounce the word, what is going on is that a subordinate consonant is being inserted within a longer vocal dipthong, something like tewcwtli or it could be pronounced with the consonant displacing the dipthong like tektli. I have a larger agenda against tecuhtli, however, because I believe that the word is a nominalization of teu/o, and, in that light, I'm compiling references to divinities, sorcerers etc. to see if that hypothesis has substance. best, Mark Morris Oh, as a non-sequituir on pronunciations, I was tickled a couple years ago to see that some neighbors over the way had "Clacoyos" for sale along with quesadillas and memelitas. What was interesting about that was that it accurately represented one half of the way people, particularly women, pronounce "tl" in that region, with the tongue sort of hitting the palate lightly and then moving down not to produce a well-defined "tl" but more of an ambiguous clicking-type of consonant that has elements of both "tl" and "kl." Finally on ephemera: Mexican Spanish machinquepa is Nahuatl motzinquepa Does anyone know the source of Huarache? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From butlerpe at PURDUE.EDU Tue Apr 6 16:24:07 2004 From: butlerpe at PURDUE.EDU (butlerpe at PURDUE.EDU) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 11:24:07 -0500 Subject: Greetings In-Reply-To: <1071250441.3fd9fc092a2dd@www.mail.yale.edu> Message-ID: Professor Amith, My name is Paul Butler and I have applied to the Nahuatl summer course that you are teaching in San Agustin Oapan. I heard about this course from your email that you sent to the Nahuatl mailing list. I graduated from Purdue University, West Lafayette in December of 2003 with a major in Anthropology and a minor in Spanish. I have already been in contact with Beatriz Riefkohl at Yale and she told me about the rustic conditions in San Agustin. I told her that it would not be a problem for me as my family lives in a small village as well, Salinas Victoria, which is about two hours away from Monterrey, Nuevo Leon. I have studied in Mexico before, in the D.F. and I have travelled extensively in Mexico and Guatemala. I am interested in taking this course because I plan to go to law school and, later, become a human rights activist. I have always felt a deep respect for the indigenous peoples of the Americas, especially in Mexico because I feel they are the most important part of who Mexicans are today culturally and socially. This is just a little bit about me, but I hope to be accepted to the program in order to meet my goals of being able to help the indigenous peoples of Mexico who are so often overlooked by both the government and the public. I was asked to send you an email so you would be familiar with me when Yale Summer Programs contacts you to ask if you have heard of me. I hope to meet you this summer, and thank you for teaching a course that I consider to be extrememly valuable. Thank you, Paul Butler Diaz From jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU Tue Apr 6 16:43:34 2004 From: jonathan.amith at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Amith) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 12:43:34 -0400 Subject: Greetings In-Reply-To: <1081268647.4072d9a7a703f@webmail.purdue.edu> Message-ID: Dear Paul (if I may), Thank you so much for your interest and for your email. Your commitment is fantastic, maybe there is even the possibility of doing some community work if you are interested. Anyway, I would like to speak by phone sometime. Perhaps next week you could call (after the 15th) and we could chat. If I?m not home, please leave a message. 717-338-1255 Best, Jonathan Quoting butlerpe at PURDUE.EDU: > Professor Amith, > My name is Paul Butler and I have applied to the Nahuatl summer > course that > you are teaching in San Agustin Oapan. I heard about this course > from your > email that you sent to the Nahuatl mailing list. I graduated from > Purdue > University, West Lafayette in December of 2003 with a major in > Anthropology > and a minor in Spanish. I have already been in contact with Beatriz > Riefkohl > at Yale and she told me about the rustic conditions in San Agustin. > I told > her that it would not be a problem for me as my family lives in a > small > village as well, Salinas Victoria, which is about two hours away > from > Monterrey, Nuevo Leon. I have studied in Mexico before, in the D.F. > and I > have travelled extensively in Mexico and Guatemala. I am interested > in taking > this course because I plan to go to law school and, later, become a > human > rights activist. I have always felt a deep respect for the > indigenous peoples > of the Americas, especially in Mexico because I feel they are the > most > important part of who Mexicans are today culturally and socially. > This is > just a little bit about me, but I hope to be accepted to the program > in order > to meet my goals of being able to help the indigenous peoples of > Mexico who > are so often overlooked by both the government and the public. I was > asked to > send you an email so you would be familiar with me when Yale Summer > Programs > contacts you to ask if you have heard of me. I hope to meet you this > summer, > and thank you for teaching a course that I consider to be extrememly > valuable. > Thank you, > Paul Butler > Diaz > Jonathan D. Amith Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Gettysburg College 300 N. Washington St. Campus Box 412 Gettysburg, PA 17325 Tel. 717/338-1255 From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Apr 12 14:29:15 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 09:29:15 -0500 Subject: Ethnohistory Society Message-ID: Subject: American Society for Ethnohistory call for papers 2004 Annual Meeting American Society for Ethnohistory Holiday Inn, Chicago Mart Plaza October 27-30, 2004 Continuing Encounters:Across Space/Through time The Newberry Library's D'Arcy McNickle Center for American Indian History is pleased to host the 2004 Annual Meeting of the American Society for Ethnohistory. The theme of this year's conference, "Continuing Encounters: Across Space/Through Time," focuses attention on a process that has been integral to the evolution of ethnohistorical scholarship over the course of the past decade. Employed initially by scholars whose work emphasized the contact, colonial, and early national periods, these explorations detailed the consequences of 1492 in terms of complex cultural, social, spiritual, political, economic, microbial, epidemiological, and ideational exchanges between Europeans and indigenous peoples. Later works have shown that encounters are neither restricted to these categories, nor bounded by space or time. They are global processes. They preceded 1492. They continue. We especially invite proposals that speak to and think creatively about this year's theme of encounters and the myriad forms they have taken across space and through time. But we also welcome those covering other themes as well. Individuals may submit independently. Complete panels are preferred. The deadline for applications is June 15, 2004. We are strongly encouraging electronic submissions. All of the necessary forms will be made accessible through the American Society for Ethnohistory's website: http://ethnohistory.org. Completed forms can then be emailed directly as Microsoft Word attachments to mcnickle at newberry.org. For those submitting proposals via U.S. Mail, please send panel/paper abstracts, registration fees, application cover letter, and curriculum vitae to: ASE Program Committee c/o D'Arcy McNickle Center for American Indian History The Newberry Library 60 West Walton Street Chicago, Illinois 60610 For additional information, email mcnickle at newberry.org or call (312) 255-3564. Conference details will be updated regularly at http://ethnohistory.org From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Wed Apr 14 21:44:18 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 16:44:18 -0500 Subject: historical pigs In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20031212105049.01e40e28@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: As I understand it, the term "coyametl" was applied to a peccary. Was this term used for both the collared and the white-lipped peccary? In addition, was the term "pitzotl" also applied to a peccary or was it used only for the domesticated, European-introduced pig, the Sus variety? tlaxtlahui, Michael From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM Tue Apr 20 15:01:07 2004 From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:01:07 +0200 Subject: three doubts Message-ID: I have consulted a number of books, but I am still confused about the following and would greatly appreciate enlightment: (1) Plural reverential forms Should one add the plural suffix to a noun and then the singular reverential? NANTINTZIN? or plural suffix and plural reverential? NANTINTZITZIN? or no plural suffix and just plural reverential? NANTZITZIN? 2) Stems Is there a rule saying that whenever there are two vowels at the end of a stem (i.e. TOCAITL, MAITL, TEMACHTIANI) one is to delete the last vowel (TOCA, MA, TEMACHTI) ? 3) Endings Did nouns like CHICHI once had a traditional ending? (TL, TLI, LI, IN). Is the stem "chich"? (chichitontli or chichtontli?) Thank you for your help. Susana Moraleda From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Apr 20 15:46:43 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:46:43 -0500 Subject: three doubts In-Reply-To: <00ca01c426ea$0f402000$7794d351@mexico> Message-ID: At 10:01 AM 4/20/2004, you wrote: >Is there a rule saying that whenever there are two vowels at the end of a >stem (i.e. TOCAITL, MAITL, TEMACHTIANI) one is to delete the last vowel >(TOCA, MA, TEMACHTI) ? Unfortunately, -temachtiani- comes ultimately from the verb stem -mati- to know. It is an example of the customary form of the verb. After -mati- one then constructs the causative form -machtia- to cause some one to know, or to teach. Then one constructs the customary by adding the indefinite personal object -te- meaning someone, and the -ni- suffix of the customary, in order to get temachtiani, one who customarily causes someone to know something, that is a teacher. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Apr 20 15:48:25 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:48:25 -0500 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 07:57:29 -0400 Reply-To: Archaeology Institute Sender: Pre-Columbian History From: Archaeology Institute Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU Dear Colleagues, I have just reviewed the Discovery video titled "Unsolved History: Aztec Temple." Among the conclusions drawn via experimentation with a synthetic cadaver (of the sort created for military experimentation to test the effects of minefield damage to human tissue) is that it takes between 17 and 20 seconds to extract a human heart from below the sternum with a flint knife. A professor from the University of Cincinnati, Barry Isaac, has estimated that it would take approximately 2 minutes per sacrifice to position the captive, extract the heart, and tumble the captive down the steps of the Templo Mayor. By his calculations, at 2 minutes per captive, 30 men or women could have been sacrificed at each altar stone per hour. He concludes that in a 10 hour day 300 captives could be dispatched, and over a four day period (as in the mass sacrifice of 1487) some 1,200 captives were dispatched at each temple or altar site. Given the projected 19 altars used from throughout the city of Tenochtitlan, Professor Isaac concludes that 1200 multiplied by 19 altars comes to about 22,800. It is this figure that approximates the 20,000 captive offerings that Francis Berdan cites from the Codex Telleriano-Remensis. Berdan, prior to the experiments in question, in turn concluded that it would not have been possible to excise a beating human heart in anything under 5 minutes. If, in fact, as the experiment demonstrated, one attempts to cut through the sternum with a flint or chert knife, then it is likely that the effort will fail. On the other hand, by slicing or cutting the area below the sternum from end to end, one can in fact excise a still beating heart within the time frame noted. Ultimately, the experiment demonstrated that such an act could have been performed in about 20 seconds...while of course, a well experienced executioner may have performed the feat in less time. Any thoughts on this matter would be appreciated, particularly as I am currently in the throes of considering perspectives that both advocate the idea that mass human sacrifice was, or was not, the reality of the Mexica Aztec and other Mesoamerican civilizations. Best Regards, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Tue Apr 20 17:15:52 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 12:15:52 -0500 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040420104753.0203d110@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: F. Schwaller and all, Luis Reyes at times questioned the accuracy of post-conquest descriptions of sacrifice. His main point was that Mesoamerican ideas of sacrifice were highly symbolic and malleable making simple equations of the sacrifice of a person and death problematic. He cited, in particular, two documents he had read. One related events of child sacrifice in the lower Puebla-Mixteca region that struck him as curious because at one point it stated that the children sacrificed the previous year were not sacrificed the following year. Another, I think from the same region, related the sacrifice of a captive in a new fire ceremony. In this case, the captive who lent his chest for the ceremony unexpectedly died and restorative damages had to be paid to his home community. Similar circumstances can be found in many communities across Mexico where people profess that bridges and other works are built over "skulls and bones," in reference to the labor invested in them. He suggested that a close reading of Tezozomoc's account of the massive sacrifices of captives at the Templo Mayor gave a similar impression and that the three figures arriving there in the Telleriano-Remensis might represent corps of laborers instead of heart offerings. He published an argument along these lines in an edited volume whose citation escapes at the moment. The Tlaxcalan chronicler, Zapata y Mendoza who worked from older sources, however, plainly insists that, among zapotecas, tlapanecas, huextzincas and tziuhcohuacas, 88,400 macehualli "died" at the 1487 dedication. Regarding physiology, if the heart can be removed in 20 seconds, in what time does a person sans heart become brain dead? best, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From institute at CSUMB.EDU Tue Apr 20 17:16:06 2004 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:16:06 -0700 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: Thank you for your message. I will respond as soon as possible. If you have an urgent matter that you would like to communicate, please contact Lilly Martinez by voice mail at 831-582-4364. From zorrah at ATT.NET Tue Apr 20 17:30:57 2004 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:30:57 +0000 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: This message (below) was sent to the entire list, although it was addressed to "Colleagues." So, I'm going to respond anyway even though some may not consider me "a colleague." Question: Can you please operationalize what you mean by the "reality of the Mexica Aztec and other Mesoamerican civilizations" in your final sentence? Are you trying to reconstruct what you think was the reality of the Mexica Aztec or what exactly do you mean? Also, how does this "reality" connect with results from an experiment on a synthetic human cadever? How can the results of this experiment and a citation from Francis Berdan - provide anyone with a credible representation of the "reality of the Mexica Aztec"? What is this reality based on - theory? Thanks for your response, citlalin xochime Nahuatl Tlahtolkalli http://nahuatl.info/nahuatl.htm > Dear Colleagues, > > I have just reviewed the Discovery video titled "Unsolved > History: Aztec Temple." Among the conclusions drawn via > experimentation with a synthetic cadaver (of the sort created for > military experimentation to test the effects of minefield damage > to human tissue) is that it takes between 17 and 20 seconds to > extract a human heart from below the sternum with a flint knife. > > A professor from the University of Cincinnati, Barry > Isaac, has estimated that it would take approximately 2 minutes > per sacrifice to position the captive, extract the heart, and > tumble the captive down the steps of the Templo Mayor. By his > calculations, at 2 minutes per captive, 30 men or women could > have been sacrificed at each altar stone per hour. He concludes > that in a 10 hour day 300 captives could be dispatched, and over > a four day period (as in the mass sacrifice of 1487) some 1,200 > captives were dispatched at each temple or altar site. > > Given the projected 19 altars used from throughout the > city of Tenochtitlan, Professor Isaac concludes that 1200 > multiplied by 19 altars comes to about 22,800. It is this figure > that approximates the 20,000 captive offerings that Francis > Berdan cites from the Codex Telleriano-Remensis. Berdan, prior > to the experiments in question, in turn concluded that it would > not have been possible to excise a beating human heart in anything > under 5 minutes. If, in fact, as the experiment demonstrated, one > attempts to cut through the sternum with a flint or chert knife, > then it is likely that the effort will fail. On the other hand, > by slicing or cutting the area below the sternum from end to end, > one can in fact excise a still beating heart within the time frame > noted. > > Ultimately, the experiment demonstrated that such an act > could have been performed in about 20 seconds...while of course, > a well experienced executioner may have performed the feat in > less time. Any thoughts on this matter would be appreciated, > particularly as I am currently in the throes of considering > perspectives that both advocate the idea that mass human > sacrifice was, or was not, the reality of the Mexica Aztec and > other Mesoamerican civilizations. > > Best Regards, > > Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director > Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization > Social and Behavioral Sciences > California State University Monterey Bay > 100 Campus Center > Seaside, California 93955-8001 > > Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu > Voice: 831-582-3760 > Fax: 831-582-3566 > http://archaeology.csumb.edu > http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Tue Apr 20 17:39:00 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 12:39:00 -0500 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040420104753.0203d110@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Dear List, I forgot to drop in a couple random thoughts that passed my mind this morning. Question: Anyone have an idea of what the pe: of peyotl refers to? Comment: Tzopilotl means "picadura colgada" best, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From micc2 at COX.NET Tue Apr 20 18:04:02 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:04:02 -0700 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040420104753.0203d110@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Just a note from the sidelines from an amateur of all things Mexican, Before anyone jumps to an ultimate conclusion on the number of sacrificial offerings carried out by the Mexi'ca we need to keep in mind: 1. Any number reported by the Spanish for European audiences must be looked up with several large grains of salt Just like Weapons of mass destruction, numbers of sacrificed people can be mirages in the desert, created for political excuses of conquest. 2. Since the Mexi'ca were not very nice to their neighbor's, and since their neighbors eventually exacted revenge by siding with the Spanish invaders, their reports on the number of victims are also suspect. NOW PLEASE REMEMBER THAT I AM NOT A NEO-MEXI'CA REVISIONIST WHO DENIES ANY SACRIFICES! The archeological evidence does indeed show human sacrifice throughout the entire pre-Columbian period. I merely propose that the numbers have been greatly exaggerated by people who would benefit from such "facts" (such as Christian clergy, gold seeking mercenaries, and royal personages bent on extending their domains and tax basis.... 3. the disposal of so many bodies. where are there skeletal remains today? How was a massive case of rooting corpses dealt with? No one can surely believe that EVERYONE sacrificed was eaten as ritual communion? 4. The Otomi and nahuas of today still have ritual sacrifices of PAPER people as part of their pre-Columbian heritage. I theorize that the "Thousands of victims" were in large part paper effigies ritually bled on and then burnt as offerings. For a view of how the nahua of today's Huasteca use these please see: http://www.deneenstreet.com/Mexico/moy1.htm There is also the book "The Shaman's Touch" "Be careful of the propaganda you believe, it might take you to war a half a globe away to die..." respectfully mario e. aguilar www.mexicayotl.org John F. Schwaller wrote: > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 07:57:29 -0400 > Reply-To: Archaeology Institute > Sender: Pre-Columbian History > From: Archaeology Institute > Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality > To: AZTLAN at LISTSERV.LOUISVILLE.EDU > > > Dear Colleagues, > > I have just reviewed the Discovery video titled "Unsolved > History: Aztec Temple." Among the conclusions drawn via > experimentation with a synthetic cadaver (of the sort created for > military experimentation to test the effects of minefield damage > to human tissue) is that it takes between 17 and 20 seconds to > extract a human heart from below the sternum with a flint knife. > > A professor from the University of Cincinnati, Barry > Isaac, has estimated that it would take approximately 2 minutes > per sacrifice to position the captive, extract the heart, and > tumble the captive down the steps of the Templo Mayor. By his > calculations, at 2 minutes per captive, 30 men or women could > have been sacrificed at each altar stone per hour. He concludes > that in a 10 hour day 300 captives could be dispatched, and over > a four day period (as in the mass sacrifice of 1487) some 1,200 > captives were dispatched at each temple or altar site. > > Given the projected 19 altars used from throughout the > city of Tenochtitlan, Professor Isaac concludes that 1200 > multiplied by 19 altars comes to about 22,800. It is this figure > that approximates the 20,000 captive offerings that Francis > Berdan cites from the Codex Telleriano-Remensis. Berdan, prior > to the experiments in question, in turn concluded that it would > not have been possible to excise a beating human heart in anything > under 5 minutes. If, in fact, as the experiment demonstrated, one > attempts to cut through the sternum with a flint or chert knife, > then it is likely that the effort will fail. On the other hand, > by slicing or cutting the area below the sternum from end to end, > one can in fact excise a still beating heart within the time frame > noted. > > Ultimately, the experiment demonstrated that such an act > could have been performed in about 20 seconds...while of course, > a well experienced executioner may have performed the feat in > less time. Any thoughts on this matter would be appreciated, > particularly as I am currently in the throes of considering > perspectives that both advocate the idea that mass human > sacrifice was, or was not, the reality of the Mexica Aztec and > other Mesoamerican civilizations. > > Best Regards, > > Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director > Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization > Social and Behavioral Sciences > California State University Monterey Bay > 100 Campus Center > Seaside, California 93955-8001 > > Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu > Voice: 831-582-3760 > Fax: 831-582-3566 > http://archaeology.csumb.edu > http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Tue Apr 20 18:23:27 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 12:23:27 -0600 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: >From what time were the two documents you mention below? Richley >>> mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU 04/20 11:15 AM >>> F. Schwaller and all, Luis Reyes at times questioned the accuracy of post-conquest descriptions of sacrifice. His main point was that Mesoamerican ideas of sacrifice were highly symbolic and malleable making simple equations of the sacrifice of a person and death problematic. He cited, in particular, two documents he had read. One related events of child sacrifice in the lower Puebla-Mixteca region that struck him as curious because at one point it stated that the children sacrificed the previous year were not sacrificed the following year. Another, I think from the same region, related the sacrifice of a captive in a new fire ceremony. In this case, the captive who lent his chest for the ceremony unexpectedly died and restorative damages had to be paid to his home community. Similar circumstances can be found in many communities across Mexico where people profess that bridges and other works are built over "skulls and bones," in reference to the labor invested in them. He suggested that a close reading of Tezozomoc's account of the massive sacrifices of captives at the Templo Mayor gave a similar impression and that the three figures arriving there in the Telleriano-Remensis might represent corps of laborers instead of heart offerings. He published an argument along these lines in an edited volume whose citation escapes at the moment. The Tlaxcalan chronicler, Zapata y Mendoza who worked from older sources, however, plainly insists that, among zapotecas, tlapanecas, huextzincas and tziuhcohuacas, 88,400 macehualli "died" at the 1487 dedication. Regarding physiology, if the heart can be removed in 20 seconds, in what time does a person sans heart become brain dead? best, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Tue Apr 20 18:28:03 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 12:28:03 -0600 Subject: Misc. Message-ID: Andrews associates it with the verb peyo:-ni, 'to glimmer, to glow'. Richley >>> mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU 04/20 11:39 AM >>> Dear List, I forgot to drop in a couple random thoughts that passed my mind this morning. Question: Anyone have an idea of what the pe: of peyotl refers to? Comment: Tzopilotl means "picadura colgada" best, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Apr 20 18:50:59 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:50:59 -0500 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: <042020041730.4006.40855E510001CFC000000FA62161243646FF979E 8D8D90@att.net> Message-ID: At 12:30 PM 4/20/2004, you wrote: >This message (below) was sent to the entire list, although it was >addressed to "Colleagues." So, I'm going to respond anyway even though >some may not consider me "a colleague." The message was cross posted from another list, AZTLAN. I thought that it was provocative, and indeed so it seems to be. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From zorrah at ATT.NET Tue Apr 20 19:46:59 2004 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:46:59 +0000 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: >The message was cross posted from another list, AZTLAN. I thought that it >was provocative, and indeed so it seems to be. Tlazohkamati. The topic is certainly provocative indeed. The research is interesting to say the least. But what interests me the most is the meaning of "the Reality of the Mexica Aztec." Somewhere, someone must have a clue as to what this exactly means from the perspective of the research question. I've heard people talk about different "realities" as constructed from language and culture (Post Modernism, Social Construction theory etc.). Yet, I have never heard of reconstructing a "reality" based on a remote test and a citation from the literature. I have not read any archaeology research (I have my good reasons) - my background is actually in the hard sciences. I would like to see more research on this topic using hard science (genetics, chemistry, physics etc.) and qualitative research (ethnography, etc.). I think both approaches would complement and support one another, giving us all a clearer picture of what happened (how, possible why) in precolonial Anahuac history. As, a side-note: During my research on rats, in which I preserved the brain of a once living rat after it had received methamphetamine or cocaine, I was able to ?hold? the living heart in less than 1-minute. I accomplished this by cutting (with surgical scissors) just below the sternum, through the ribs, and up to the armpit area. This procedure allowed for me to ?remove? the heart ? or position it ? as my particular protocol stated. So, being that rats are sometimes equated with humans (both are mammals with similar organs) ? this same procedure could certainly be carried out rapidly on a human with the proper tool and skill. citlalin xochime Graduate Assistant New Mexico State University citlalin at att.net From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Tue Apr 20 19:58:03 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:58:03 -0400 Subject: three doubts In-Reply-To: <00ca01c426ea$0f402000$7794d351@mexico> Message-ID: Hello Susana! > (1) Plural reverential forms > Should one add the plural suffix to a noun and then the singular > reverential? NANTINTZIN? > or plural suffix and plural reverential? NANTINTZITZIN? > or no plural suffix and just plural reverential? NANTZITZIN? The honorific goes between the noun stem and the absolutive suffix (singular or plural). The honorific suffix reduplicates in the plural. Singular -tzin-tli; plural -tzitzin-tin. In possessed forms, the singular is -tzin and the plural is -tzitzin-huan. > 2) Stems > Is there a rule saying that whenever there are two vowels at the end of a > stem (i.e. TOCAITL, MAITL, TEMACHTIANI) one is to delete the last vowel > (TOCA, MA, TEMACHTI) ? No. A number of "small" words like tocaitl and maitl drop the -i- as well as the absolutive suffix to form the stem (toca-, ma-). Temachtiani doesn't drop anything. It's a noun derived from a verb, and doesn't take a singular absolutive suffix (-tl or -in). The plural is formed either by adding a final saltillo (temachtianih) or by suppletion (temachtihqueh). > > 3) Endings > Did nouns like CHICHI once have a traditional ending? (TL, TLI, LI, IN). No. It is thought to be a loan word. > Is the stem "chich"? No. It is chichi. > (chichitontli or chichtontli?) Chichiton. I don't think there would be anything wrong with chichitontli, though. The plural is chichitotontin. But this is just based on the body of classical Nahuatl texts. Geographically and temporally there is lots of variation, so one can't really say anything is absolutely right or wrong. Fran From kread at CONDOR.DEPAUL.EDU Tue Apr 20 20:15:05 2004 From: kread at CONDOR.DEPAUL.EDU (Kay A. Read) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:15:05 -0500 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: <042020041730.4006.40855E510001CFC000000FA62161243646FF979E 8D8D90@att.net> Message-ID: Listeros, It's also worthwhile to recall what R.C. Padden said about this almost forty years ago in The Hummingbird and the Hawk, (Harper and Row, 1967; n12, p.284). In there he cites a study a study almost 60 years old by Sherburne F. Cook. Cook perhaps underestimated that it took two minutes to extract a heart, but Padden also notes the variety of sacrificial conditions and how the speed would have varied. Also, does this rapid rate of extraction in the new study account for the unruliness of living people, or the numbers of skilled extractors one would have to have to keep up the pace (for example) for the 96 straight hours that Duran's example requires? Sahagun also says that, in at least some sacrificial rituals, the bodies were rolled down the steps, carted away and then divided up among certain recipients. One might have been capable of extracting a heart in 17-20 seconds, but then what? There's more to this than getting a heart out of an already lifeless body; one also has to do something with that body. And somebody has to do all that. Moreover, has anyone considered the ecological issues in this? Somewhere many years ago, I heard somebody claim that the disposal of 80, 400 bodies (the number Duran gives for that famous example), or even 11, 520 bodies (the number Cook came up with) would have really messed up the delicate ecology of the Basin of Mexico. I.e., what did they do with all the bodies? Bernard Ortiz de Montellano suggests that only some people ate only certain parts of those bodies (the thigh apparently was big); what happened to the rest? And, what did it do to the environment, if it really happened? I tend to agree with some of the other respondents to this, that it's good to treat our sources with a very heavy dose of suspicion and caution. Not only because they themselves come from authors who presume certain realities, but also because we ourselves come from situations that presume certain realities. My question, I guess, is why are we still concerned with the numbers of sacrifice? The sources are rich with a huge number of wonderful issues and topics; why is this still a burning question at least 60 years later. By the way they burned and decapitated people, and shot people with arrows, among other things too, why are we so hung up on the heart extractions? Is this really, really important for our understanding of Aztec sacrifice or, more generally, of Aztec worldviews, or does the question itself say something important about ourselves? Just some food for thought. Kay Read At 05:30 PM 4/20/2004 +0000, zorrah at ATT.NET wrote: >This message (below) was sent to the entire list, although it was >addressed to "Colleagues." So, I'm going to respond anyway even though >some may not consider me "a colleague." > >Question: Can you please operationalize what you mean by the "reality of >the Mexica Aztec and >other Mesoamerican civilizations" in your final sentence? Are you trying >to reconstruct what you think was the reality of the Mexica Aztec or what >exactly do you mean? Also, how does this "reality" connect with results >from an experiment on a synthetic human cadever? How can the results of >this experiment and a citation from Francis Berdan - provide anyone with a >credible representation of the "reality of the Mexica Aztec"? What is >this reality based on - theory? > >Thanks for your response, > >citlalin xochime >Nahuatl Tlahtolkalli >http://nahuatl.info/nahuatl.htm > > > > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > I have just reviewed the Discovery video titled "Unsolved > > History: Aztec Temple." Among the conclusions drawn via > > experimentation with a synthetic cadaver (of the sort created for > > military experimentation to test the effects of minefield damage > > to human tissue) is that it takes between 17 and 20 seconds to > > extract a human heart from below the sternum with a flint knife. > > > > A professor from the University of Cincinnati, Barry > > Isaac, has estimated that it would take approximately 2 minutes > > per sacrifice to position the captive, extract the heart, and > > tumble the captive down the steps of the Templo Mayor. By his > > calculations, at 2 minutes per captive, 30 men or women could > > have been sacrificed at each altar stone per hour. He concludes > > that in a 10 hour day 300 captives could be dispatched, and over > > a four day period (as in the mass sacrifice of 1487) some 1,200 > > captives were dispatched at each temple or altar site. > > > > Given the projected 19 altars used from throughout the > > city of Tenochtitlan, Professor Isaac concludes that 1200 > > multiplied by 19 altars comes to about 22,800. It is this figure > > that approximates the 20,000 captive offerings that Francis > > Berdan cites from the Codex Telleriano-Remensis. Berdan, prior > > to the experiments in question, in turn concluded that it would > > not have been possible to excise a beating human heart in anything > > under 5 minutes. If, in fact, as the experiment demonstrated, one > > attempts to cut through the sternum with a flint or chert knife, > > then it is likely that the effort will fail. On the other hand, > > by slicing or cutting the area below the sternum from end to end, > > one can in fact excise a still beating heart within the time frame > > noted. > > > > Ultimately, the experiment demonstrated that such an act > > could have been performed in about 20 seconds...while of course, > > a well experienced executioner may have performed the feat in > > less time. Any thoughts on this matter would be appreciated, > > particularly as I am currently in the throes of considering > > perspectives that both advocate the idea that mass human > > sacrifice was, or was not, the reality of the Mexica Aztec and > > other Mesoamerican civilizations. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director > > Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization > > Social and Behavioral Sciences > > California State University Monterey Bay > > 100 Campus Center > > Seaside, California 93955-8001 > > > > Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu > > Voice: 831-582-3760 > > Fax: 831-582-3566 > > http://archaeology.csumb.edu > > http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Tue Apr 20 20:33:23 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:33:23 -0500 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richley, Thanks for the peyo:ni gloss. Although I not sure if Luis ever gave a full citation or if I jotted it down, the cited documents would be 16th-17th century annals or chronicles from the Puebla-Mixteca area (basically Cholula toward Tepexi and probably Tehuacan). He did a lot of work in that region on Kirchoff's projects and then continued to direct students working in that area over the next two decades. I'll try to check my notes and those of my colleagues to see if we have a citation. best, Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Tue Apr 20 20:57:53 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:57:53 -0600 Subject: Misc. Message-ID: Thanks! Richley >>> mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU 04/20 2:33 PM >>> Richley, Thanks for the peyo:ni gloss. Although I not sure if Luis ever gave a full citation or if I jotted it down, the cited documents would be 16th-17th century annals or chronicles from the Puebla-Mixteca area (basically Cholula toward Tepexi and probably Tehuacan). He did a lot of work in that region on Kirchoff's projects and then continued to direct students working in that area over the next two decades. I'll try to check my notes and those of my colleagues to see if we have a citation. best, Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From institute at CSUMB.EDU Tue Apr 20 21:29:50 2004 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:29:50 -0700 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: <042020041730.4006.40855E510001CFC000000FA62161243646FF979E8D8D90@att.net> Message-ID: Nahua language and culture discussion writes: >Question: Can you please operationalize what you mean by the "reality of the Mexica Aztec and >other Mesoamerican civilizations" in your final sentence? Are you trying to reconstruct what you think was the reality of the Mexica Aztec or what exactly do you mean? Also, how does this >"reality" connect with results from an experiment on a synthetic human cadever? How can the results of this experiment and a citation from Francis Berdan - provide anyone with a credible >representation of the "reality of the Mexica Aztec"? What is this reality based on - theory? > >Thanks for your response, > >citlalin xochime >Nahuatl Tlahtolkalli Citlalin Xochime, As I am in the midst of an RTP review of a colleague, for the moment I would like to respond in brief, and by way of explanations proferred by me in a previous response to another neo-Mexica revisionist perspective presented in yet another list-serv context and "reality". First, the specific "reality" that I am most interested in at the moment concerns the "neo-Mexica revisionist" (or neo-post-modernist Mexica-Xicano) reality that has become quite vocal, and often antagonistic to university faculty and other students who raise questions such as those raised in my earlier post of today. As a professor at the California State University, Monterey Bay, where I teach such courses as "Art of the Aztec Empire" and "Ancient Maya Civilizations," I soon discovered that a number of my Latino, Mexicano, and Xicano students (and please do note that I count myself as a member of the Xicano reality) had adopted a polemical rhetoric often seen predominantly and exclusively among the more zealous members of the European and American "denial movements" that continue to proclaim such realities as that that espouses the belief that the Nazi-inspired holocaust of WWII is little more than a politically-motivated fiction. The "reality" in question has become the basis for a long-term personal interest in how it is that denial movements, ethnocentricity, and nationalism often go hand in hand to elevate, or quash, those elements of history, art, and science that such groups see as unsavory or demeaning. Significantly, your questions and challenges (not to mention, elements of your website) fit the frameworks of analysis that I have observed to date among those I now refer to as "neo-Mexica revisionists." Please do note, however, I do not consider said position to be without merit. In fact, if anything, consideration and analysis of those questions raised by "neo-Mexica revisionists" have in fact led me to more closely examine and analyze those diatribes that obtain between both proponents and detractors of the "paradise lost" vision and reality of ancient Mesoamerica. Ultimately, I believe that the shortcomings and failings of archaeology and ethnohistory, and the resurgence of ethnocentrically-defined movements and nationalistically inspired academic agendas, continue to cloud the bloody waters of human sacrifice, conflict, and warfare in the Americas and elsewhere. One neo-Mexica revisionist, who also happens to be a personal acquaintance of mine, has taken to using his pride in his adoptive Mexica roots to teach Xicano youth about the beauty of their ancestors and their contributions...particularly as concerns dissuading our youth from engaging in gangland conflict and violence. Others, on the other hand, profane the discussions by engaging in ad hominem attacks on any and all archaeologists and ethnohistorians who have worked to sustain Mexica Aztec studies for the better part of the past five centuries. From Sahagun to Carrasco, they have been attacked as racist, or characterized as one revisionist put it, as "arqueolocos." Ironically, while these same revisionists question the facts presented by Sahagun and others, they nevertheless persist in using data and cultural descriptions from these same scholars to "reconstruct" a "separate reality" of their respective heritage. Other neo-Mexica revisionists, predominantly Xicano, have written poetry decrying the blasphemies of the academy regarding their ancestors, while at the same time glorifying the bloodshed and violence of street gang warfare and drive-by shootings. Again, my objective here is not to denigrate, but to comprehend the very roots and affinities of the phenomenon in question. As a scientist I suspect that you would more than fully understand that reality is relative! If anything, like you, I seek to promote a forensic approach to those vestiges of the conflict in question that take many forms. Interestingly, no matter how many questions asked, or "facts" interrogated, the arguments can be perpetuated indefinitely in this instance. The following was my specific proposal to another neo-Mexica revisionist perspective brought to bear in another context (I will respond to other specifics latter today or tomorrow): "I am in fact in agreement with your assessments. It is precisely for said reasons that I would advocate that blood residue analysis of cult objects, including axe blades, statuary, and vessels (e.g., Ocelotl Cuauhxicalli), be confined to those cult objects retrieved from pre-Hispanic archaeological contexts (e.g., Leonardo Lopez Lujan, 1994). In addition, the analysis of bone collagen in fact hold the potential to provenience those proteins and amino acids specific to food group sources that would assist in the identification of from whence such foods were consumed. This was in fact recently done to provenience the origins of an early Copan dynast to the Northern Yucatan. Given that the forensic analysis of bone and blood residues now holds the potential to identify human blood serum as old as 90,000 years BP, and that corallary analysis of amino acids and proteins will permit the identification of (ethnic) origins, I believe that in this way we can begin to assess Spanish contact claims pertaining to the those core issues that remain as per the question of human sacrifice. I am particularly concerned about the inadequacy of forensic data pertinent to the following questions: (a) Does there exist a body of prima facie forensic evidence to contest or support recent claims by neo-Mexica revisionists (e.g., Tlapoyawa, 2002; Mendoza, 2001; 2003) that Spanish documentation for the existence of human sacrifice in Mesoamerica is little more than a fabrication of Spanish conquistadores and clerics? (b) If, in fact, we can demonstrate that blood sacrifice was a matter of fact among such groups as the Mexica Aztec, do we not have access to a sufficient body of osteological evidence to specify the forms of blood sacrifice that may have been practiced (e.g., human heart excision, decapitation, etc.)? (c) Given both popular lore, and neo-Mexica revisionist claims that if, in fact, human sacrifice was practiced, it was only another more radical form of auto-sacrifice in which only those self-selecting or volunteering were given over to the gods; then can either blood residue, DNA, or bone collagen studies settle the matter of who specifically was targeted for such a divine rite? and, finally, (d) Given revisionist claims that the practice of tearing a human heart from a living, breathing, victim is not technically, or surgically, feasible with stone tools (or other more modern methods that require specialized instruments), how then do the Matamoros cult killings of the 1980's (wherein a single individual or cult leader accomplished the same task unassisted by attendants) provide an "ethnographic" analog that might in turn settle this latter question? So, given the many questions that remain unanswered, and the many assumptions that both scholars and the lay public make about virtually every architectonic feature on the Mesoamerican landscape (i.e., the notion that all "altar" platforms were in essence sacrificial sites), how then can we fruitfully and effectively begin to bring resolve to the questions that continue to vex Amerindian and Mesoamericanist communities? [Note: A recent AAA symposium organized by Rick Chacon, David Dye, and myself, was an effort in this direction]." You have my preliminary response...and I look forward to more on the topic in question. To that end, I thank all who have contributed many more questions than can be resolved in this lifetime or the next. Ashkale Kuarma, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. From institute at CSUMB.EDU Tue Apr 20 22:24:16 2004 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:24:16 -0700 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20040420145122.022c9958@condor.depaul.edu> Message-ID: Nahua language and culture discussion writes: >Moreover, has anyone considered the ecological issues in this? Somewhere many years ago, I heard somebody claim that the disposal of 80, 400 bodies (the number Duran gives for that famous example), >or even 11, 520 bodies (the number Cook came up with) would have really messed up the delicate ecology of the Basin of Mexico. I.e., what did they do with all the bodies? Bernard Ortiz de >Montellano suggests that only some people ate only certain parts of those bodies (the thigh apparently was big); what happened to the rest? And, what did it do to the environment, if it really >happened? Last I checked, the ecology of Rawanda was little effected by the genocidal massacre of some 800,000 civilian non-combatants in a period of little more than eight weeks...and with machetes and garden tools, no less. Media footage of the massacre and its aftermath make clear that many of the victims were simply left where they died, or were tossed into rivers where they polluted the waters with a crimson hue until such time that the hundreds of thousands of rotting corpses washed out to sea, or were consumed by the wildlife of the region. So, I must necessarily differ with your perspective on the decimation of the ecology...particularly as I understand that human remains are largely biodegradable. > > >I tend to agree with some of the other respondents to this, that it's good to treat our sources with a very heavy dose of suspicion and caution. Not only because they themselves come from authors >who presume certain realities, but also because we ourselves come from situations that presume certain realities. Good point! It is precisely this line of thinking that will continue to parody any and all thinking on any and all matters of the human spirit...and the carnage that generally follows. Where does that leave anthropology, history, ethnohistory, etc? While I think that critical theory and post-modernist critiques have their place in the academy, I must confess that as the product of an impoverished family from an "oppressed" minority ethnic group, such critiques generally fall short in their efforts to go beyond hegemonic discourse analysis...and into the realm of how it is that people like my family and I were able to put food on the table. Such discursive networks have little utility for the vast majority of the world's population, which is hungry, poor, and uneducated in the niceties and frivolities of post-modern thinking. > >My question, I guess, is why are we still concerned with the numbers of sacrifice? The sources are rich with a huge number of wonderful issues and topics; why is this still a burning question at >least 60 years later. By the way they burned and decapitated people, and shot people with arrows, among other things too, why are we so hung up on the heart extractions? Is this really, really >important for our understanding of Aztec sacrifice or, more generally, of Aztec worldviews, or does the question itself say something important about ourselves? These too are good questions, but do suggest a degree of naivette about what you yourself bring into question about what is significant, and what is not, in the world of scholarship. Why would anyone care about the total number of human beings slaughtered in the Rawanda genocide...after all, it would seem that by your argument, such considerations (of genocide), have no place in the conflict ridden tribal zone of the academy. I would also counter by reframing your question by asking: "why are we still concerned with the numbers..." of people in Tenochtitlan, or the quantity of debitage on an archaeological site...or the number of atoms in an atomic bomb? Like you, I simply put these thoughts out there as food for thought...or for the Gods, as the case may be! Best Regards, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. From micc2 at COX.NET Tue Apr 20 22:35:38 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:35:38 -0700 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ruben, I have read your comments and I could not agree with you more! I have been involved in the Danza Azteca/Chicano indigenous movement since 1973. It saddens me when I hear from and read stuff written by 18-25 year old college students, or community activists that want to re-write what they perceive as the "European propaganda" of my community's past. Their fanaticism is up right there with the Osama bin Laden's followers, the fundamentalist Christian right, and the old Maoist shinning path... As you state there are some people who want to use our cultural, linguistic and spiritual legacy for the betterment of our community. But there are a small number of individuals who cling to the Mexican indigenous identify and Pan-Indian movements for their own selfish and personal ends. Any logical or reasoned debate with them is useless since they immediately attack anyone who does not follow their way of thinking as "vendidos" and sell-outs... These people use the innocence and longing of good people to take advantage of society in general, the Chicano/Mexicano community in particular. I have even hears these "spiritual" people tell first generation Mixteco-speaking kids that nahuatl is their REAL language, and that if they do not learn it they can never be indigenous people!!! Here in San Diego County we have a large Mixteco-speaking population. These Mixteco kids are going form Mixteco directly into English, with never a Castilian word getting in the way (another reason why the word "Hispanic is useless!) When a person who wants to re-write history and ( with so little understanding of culture, language or spirituality) at the expense of the other indigenous people of Mexico (such as the Otomi, Tarasco, Mixteco, Zapoteco, Mixe-Zoque, Trique, Popoloca, Guave, Seri, Huichol, Yoreme, Cocopa, etc) they are IN FACT DOING THE VERY THING THEY ACCUSE THE "ARCHEAOLOCS" OF DOING- destroying our heritage and making it into a hollywood style charicature. It reminds me of the times I was in Mecha in the early 1970's at San Diego State. At that time it was "la Liga" of marxist student majority versus the nationalists, and the indigenists (of which I was a partisan). And all of us where against the "vendidos" and sell-outs... Now that that battle was "won" by the indigenists and psuedo-nationalists, the tables are turned! Now we have some young guns who, having missed out on the fabled furor of the 60's and 70's, now they want to have something to fight about. What they do not realize is that this battle is only between ourselves, and that energy could be put to more constructive use. Personally, it is more important that we help keep alive today's indigenous languages of the world; in living and evolving ways, not for what was, but for what hopefully could be a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic global village. The number of "victims" 500 years ago means squat, compared to how many monolingual people in the highlands of Hidalgo, Veracruz, Chiapas, Guatemala and Ecuador are going to die of malnutrition, or be oppressed by "their" governments. Tlein i'toa moyollo? mario www.mexicayotl.org Archaeology Institute wrote: >Nahua language and culture discussion writes: > > >>Question: Can you please operationalize what you mean by the "reality of the Mexica Aztec and >>other Mesoamerican civilizations" in your final sentence? Are you trying to reconstruct what you think was the reality of the Mexica Aztec or what exactly do you mean? Also, how does this >>"reality" connect with results from an experiment on a synthetic human cadever? How can the results of this experiment and a citation from Francis Berdan - provide anyone with a credible >>representation of the "reality of the Mexica Aztec"? What is this reality based on - theory? >> >>Thanks for your response, >> >>citlalin xochime >>Nahuatl Tlahtolkalli >> >> > >Citlalin Xochime, > > As I am in the midst of an RTP review of a colleague, for the moment I would like to respond in brief, and by way of explanations proferred by me in a previous response to another neo-Mexica >revisionist perspective presented in yet another list-serv context and "reality". First, the specific "reality" that I am most interested in at the moment concerns the "neo-Mexica revisionist" (or >neo-post-modernist Mexica-Xicano) reality that has become quite vocal, and often antagonistic to university faculty and other students who raise questions such as those raised in my earlier post of >today. > > As a professor at the California State University, Monterey Bay, where I teach such courses as "Art of the Aztec Empire" and "Ancient Maya Civilizations," I soon discovered that a number of my >Latino, Mexicano, and Xicano students (and please do note that I count myself as a member of the Xicano reality) had adopted a polemical rhetoric often seen predominantly and exclusively among the >more zealous members of the European and American "denial movements" that continue to proclaim such realities as that that espouses the belief that the Nazi-inspired holocaust of WWII is little more >than a politically-motivated fiction. The "reality" in question has become the basis for a long-term personal interest in how it is that denial movements, ethnocentricity, and nationalism often go >hand in hand to elevate, or quash, those elements of history, art, and science that such groups see as unsavory or demeaning. > > Significantly, your questions and challenges (not to mention, elements of your website) fit the frameworks of analysis that I have observed to date among those I now refer to as "neo-Mexica >revisionists." Please do note, however, I do not consider said position to be without merit. In fact, if anything, consideration and analysis of those questions raised by "neo-Mexica revisionists" >have in fact led me to more closely examine and analyze those diatribes that obtain between both proponents and detractors of the "paradise lost" vision and reality of ancient Mesoamerica. >Ultimately, I believe that the shortcomings and failings of archaeology and ethnohistory, and the resurgence of ethnocentrically-defined movements and nationalistically inspired academic agendas, >continue to cloud the bloody waters of human sacrifice, conflict, and warfare in the Americas and elsewhere. > > One neo-Mexica revisionist, who also happens to be a personal acquaintance of mine, has taken to using his pride in his adoptive Mexica roots to teach Xicano youth about the beauty of their >ancestors and their contributions...particularly as concerns dissuading our youth from engaging in gangland conflict and violence. Others, on the other hand, profane the discussions by engaging in >ad hominem attacks on any and all archaeologists and ethnohistorians who have worked to sustain Mexica Aztec studies for the better part of the past five centuries. From Sahagun to Carrasco, they >have been attacked as racist, or characterized as one revisionist put it, as "arqueolocos." Ironically, while these same revisionists question the facts presented by Sahagun and others, they >nevertheless persist in using data and cultural descriptions from these same scholars to "reconstruct" a "separate reality" of their respective heritage. Other neo-Mexica revisionists, predominantly >Xicano, have written poetry decrying the blasphemies of the academy regarding their ancestors, while at the same time glorifying the bloodshed and violence of street gang warfare and drive-by >shootings. Again, my objective here is not to denigrate, but to comprehend the very roots and affinities of the phenomenon in question. As a scientist I suspect that you would more than fully >understand that reality is relative! > > If anything, like you, I seek to promote a forensic approach to those vestiges of the conflict in question that take many forms. Interestingly, no matter how many questions asked, or "facts" >interrogated, the arguments can be perpetuated indefinitely in this instance. The following was my specific proposal to another neo-Mexica revisionist perspective brought to bear in another context >(I will respond to other specifics latter today or tomorrow): > > > "I am in fact in agreement with your assessments. It is precisely for said reasons that I would advocate that blood residue analysis of cult objects, including axe blades, statuary, and vessels >(e.g., Ocelotl Cuauhxicalli), be confined to those cult objects retrieved from pre-Hispanic archaeological contexts (e.g., Leonardo Lopez Lujan, 1994). In addition, the analysis of bone collagen in >fact hold the potential to provenience those proteins and amino acids specific to food group sources that would assist in the identification of from whence such foods were consumed. This was in fact >recently done to provenience the origins of an early Copan dynast to the Northern Yucatan. Given that the forensic analysis of bone and blood residues now holds the potential to identify human blood >serum as old as 90,000 years BP, and that corallary analysis of amino acids and proteins will permit the identification of (ethnic) origins, I believe that in this way we can begin to assess Spanish >contact claims pertaining to the those core issues that remain as per the question of human sacrifice. I am particularly concerned about the inadequacy of forensic data pertinent to the following >questions: > >(a) Does there exist a body of prima facie forensic evidence to contest or support recent claims by neo-Mexica revisionists (e.g., Tlapoyawa, 2002; Mendoza, 2001; 2003) that Spanish documentation >for the existence of human sacrifice in Mesoamerica is little more than a fabrication of Spanish conquistadores and clerics? > >(b) If, in fact, we can demonstrate that blood sacrifice was a matter of fact among such groups as the Mexica Aztec, do we not have access to a sufficient body of osteological evidence to specify the >forms of blood sacrifice that may have been practiced (e.g., human heart excision, decapitation, etc.)? > >(c) Given both popular lore, and neo-Mexica revisionist claims that if, in fact, human sacrifice was practiced, it was only another more radical form of auto-sacrifice in which only those >self-selecting or volunteering were given over to the gods; then can either blood residue, DNA, or bone collagen studies settle the matter of who specifically was targeted for such a divine rite? > >and, finally, > >(d) Given revisionist claims that the practice of tearing a human heart from a living, breathing, victim is not technically, or surgically, feasible with stone tools (or other more modern methods >that require specialized instruments), how then do the Matamoros cult killings of the 1980's (wherein a single individual or cult leader accomplished the same task unassisted by attendants) provide >an "ethnographic" analog that might in turn settle this latter question? > > So, given the many questions that remain unanswered, and the many assumptions that both scholars and the lay public make about virtually every architectonic feature on the Mesoamerican landscape >(i.e., the notion that all "altar" platforms were in essence sacrificial sites), how then can we fruitfully and effectively begin to bring resolve to the questions that continue to vex Amerindian and >Mesoamericanist communities? [Note: A recent AAA symposium organized by Rick Chacon, David Dye, and myself, was an effort in this direction]." > > You have my preliminary response...and I look forward to more on the topic in question. To that end, I thank all who have contributed many more questions than can be resolved in this lifetime or the >next. > >Ashkale Kuarma, > >Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director >Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization >Social and Behavioral Sciences >California State University Monterey Bay >100 Campus Center >Seaside, California 93955-8001 > >Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu >Voice: 831-582-3760 >Fax: 831-582-3566 >http://archaeology.csumb.edu >http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ > > > > > >Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. >If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication >in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. > >Thank you. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kread at CONDOR.DEPAUL.EDU Tue Apr 20 22:58:37 2004 From: kread at CONDOR.DEPAUL.EDU (Kay A. Read) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:58:37 -0500 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Ruben, Thanks very much for your thoughts (or thoughtful food. . .). I wasn't myself arguing for ecological disruptions, but had heard the argument made some years ago. The Rwanda case is very interesting on this regards, and answers my honest question on this. And yes, I can see that numbers are significant and would not want to deny that. What was behind those rather quickly made remarks, however, I hope was not all that naive. The area of Aztec studies has been and often still is dominated by questions about sacrifice (how it was done, who did it, to whom, and how many. . .so on), and specifically on human (even though many other types of sacrifice occurred). It's not unusual for studies on sacrificial rituals to ignore all sacrifice but human; making no effort to account for a fuller picture. My question was more one of frustration around the seemingly continual expectation that that is what we apparently must study, if we study the Aztecs; that apparently there is little else of interest. Of course, many of us do study other things. Still, these studies are limited to an audience that is quite small; primarily other specialists who are also deeply into this stuff. Moreover, a large part of the historiography of Aztec studies in both the ancient and recent past has focused heavily on sacrifice. And, in the minds of many non-specialists out there, the out-standing issue is sacrifice. I'm raising the question of why? What does it say about us that we focus on human sacrifice? Just still throwing things out there... Regards, Kay At 03:24 PM 4/20/2004 -0700, Archaeology Institute wrote: >Nahua language and culture discussion writes: > >Moreover, has anyone considered the ecological issues in > this? Somewhere many years ago, I heard somebody claim that the disposal > of 80, 400 bodies (the number Duran gives for that famous example), > >or even 11, 520 bodies (the number Cook came up with) would have really > messed up the delicate ecology of the Basin of Mexico. I.e., what did > they do with all the bodies? Bernard Ortiz de > >Montellano suggests that only some people ate only certain parts of > those bodies (the thigh apparently was big); what happened to the > rest? And, what did it do to the environment, if it really > >happened? > >Last I checked, the ecology of Rawanda was little effected by the >genocidal massacre of some 800,000 civilian non-combatants in a period of >little more than eight weeks...and with machetes and garden >tools, no less. Media footage of the massacre and its aftermath make >clear that many of the victims were simply left where they died, or were >tossed into rivers where they polluted the waters with a >crimson hue until such time that the hundreds of thousands of rotting >corpses washed out to sea, or were consumed by the wildlife of the >region. So, I must necessarily differ with your perspective >on the decimation of the ecology...particularly as I understand that human >remains are largely biodegradable. > > > > > >I tend to agree with some of the other respondents to this, that it's > good to treat our sources with a very heavy dose of suspicion and > caution. Not only because they themselves come from authors > >who presume certain realities, but also because we ourselves come from > situations that presume certain realities. > >Good point! It is precisely this line of thinking that will continue to >parody any and all thinking on any and all matters of the human >spirit...and the carnage that generally follows. Where does >that leave anthropology, history, ethnohistory, etc? While I think that >critical theory and post-modernist critiques have their place in the >academy, I must confess that as the product of an >impoverished family from an "oppressed" minority ethnic group, such >critiques generally fall short in their efforts to go beyond hegemonic >discourse analysis...and into the realm of how it is that >people like my family and I were able to put food on the table. Such >discursive networks have little utility for the vast majority of the >world's population, which is hungry, poor, and uneducated in >the niceties and frivolities of post-modern thinking. > > > >My question, I guess, is why are we still concerned with the numbers of > sacrifice? The sources are rich with a huge number of wonderful issues > and topics; why is this still a burning question at > >least 60 years later. By the way they burned and decapitated people, > and shot people with arrows, among other things too, why are we so hung > up on the heart extractions? Is this really, really > >important for our understanding of Aztec sacrifice or, more generally, > of Aztec worldviews, or does the question itself say something important > about ourselves? > >These too are good questions, but do suggest a degree of naivette about >what you yourself bring into question about what is significant, and what >is not, in the world of scholarship. Why would >anyone care about the total number of human beings slaughtered in the >Rawanda genocide...after all, it would seem that by your argument, such >considerations (of genocide), have no place in the >conflict ridden tribal zone of the academy. I would also counter by >reframing your question by asking: "why are we still concerned with the >numbers..." of people in Tenochtitlan, or the quantity of >debitage on an archaeological site...or the number of atoms in an atomic >bomb? Like you, I simply put these thoughts out there as food for >thought...or for the Gods, as the case may be! > >Best Regards, > >Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director >Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization >Social and Behavioral Sciences >California State University Monterey Bay >100 Campus Center >Seaside, California 93955-8001 > >Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu >Voice: 831-582-3760 >Fax: 831-582-3566 >http://archaeology.csumb.edu >http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ > > > > > >Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message >is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only >for the use of the individual or entity named above. >If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any >disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this >communication is prohibited. If you received this communication >in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the >original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and >any network to which your computer is connected. > >Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From deneen at VALLEY.NET Tue Apr 20 22:48:48 2004 From: deneen at VALLEY.NET (Dan Deneen) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:48:48 -0400 Subject: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: Hello All-- Twenty years ago Elizabeth Boone edited a volume called "Ritual Human Sacrifice in Mesoamerica," (Dumbarton Oaks, 1984) that included an article by the physicians Francis Robicsek and Donald Hales on "Maya Heart Sacrifice: cultural perspective and surgical technique." They argued the most likely technique was what a surgeon would call "transverse anterior thoracotomy" which involved the use of a serrated blade to cut BETWEEN the ribs and ACROSS the sternum. The overextended supine position (victim stretched backwards over the altar by the arms and legs) would cause the contents of the thoracic cavity, namely, the heart, to be easily accessible. There was a discussion about problems connected with accessing the heart from underneath the sternum (the usual explanation), and they came out against it, though I don't remember the specific objections in the argument. I seem to recall that their work was based both on their experience as surgeons, and cadaver experimentation with serrated blades modelled after the semilunar tool believed to have been used in heart sacrifice. --Dan Dan Deneen Strafford, Vermont www.deneenstreet.com From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Tue Apr 20 23:09:58 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:09:58 -0500 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: <40856612.2060105@cox.net> Message-ID: Human sacrifice is a normal human behavior, or was, has been. It's not pretty. But then humans are not always pretty. I imagine that the number of sacrifices, that 80,000+ thing, was never really known by anyone for sure who was there on at the scene. The number itself, however, indicates "muchos". Miguelton From chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 21 01:41:34 2004 From: chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM (chelo dona) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:41:34 -0300 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From institute at CSUMB.EDU Wed Apr 21 02:23:18 2004 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:23:18 -0700 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nahua language and culture discussion writes: >Yo soy m?sico. Encantado. Y poeta, tambien! Gracias por sus ideas y commentarios sobre la idea de los "veinte segundos"! La idea de que estamos acostumbrados a ver el mundo por ojos europeos sera gran parte de la problema en nuestros commentarios y estudios del sacrificio humano en las Americas. Por fin, mis estudiantes quieren ver y saber: "porque el sacrificio humano?" En ver por ojos "europeos" no pueden ver la destruccion y violencia de nuestras comunidades y nuestras fuerzas armadas...en las tierras del tercer mundo! Abrazos y Saludos, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. From chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Apr 21 03:46:28 2004 From: chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM (chelo dona) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:46:28 -0300 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micc2 at COX.NET Wed Apr 21 04:17:32 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:17:32 -0700 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "The number itself, however, indicates "muchos"." EXACTLY!! Lost to modern readers who know nothing about allegorical or symbolic speech, is the fact that certain numbers do not mean EXACTLY that number but QUANTITIES. Lost in the layman's (and revisionist's) conversation is the symbolic rather than the literal representation. To echo another writer: "My question was more one of frustration around the seemingly continual expectation that that is what we apparently must study, if we study the Aztecs; that apparently there is little else of interest." Of course, having the Discovery Channel, the Learning Channel and Time-Life books always re-hash this subject, and then having the neo -mexi'cas deny everything does not help!!!! mario Michael Mccafferty wrote: >Human sacrifice is a normal human behavior, or was, has been. It's not >pretty. But then humans are not always pretty. > >I imagine that the number of sacrifices, that 80,000+ thing, was never >really known by anyone for sure who was there on at the scene. The number >itself, however, indicates "muchos". > >Miguelton > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zorrah at ATT.NET Wed Apr 21 04:39:22 2004 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 04:39:22 +0000 Subject: Archaeology Institute/ Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: >Significantly, your questions and challenges (not to mention, elements >of your website) fit the frameworks of analysis that I have observed to date >among those I now refer to as "neo-Mexica >revisionists." Dr. Ruben G. Mendoza: Please save your discriminatory labels for all your experimental cows out there that are willing to be branded with them: "neo-Mexica revisionist," "neo-Mexica revisionist" (or neo-post-modernist Mexica-Xicano), "neo-Mexica revisionists" - I'm not. NO thanks?for your reductive interpretations, generalizations, and unfounded relationships. The world, its cultures, and its peoples cannot be - all that simplified and reduced into neat little categories and labels as you present them to be. I had higher expectations for your response, especially from a professional. What a disappointment. citlalin xochime Graduate Student New Mexico State University English Department > Nahua language and culture discussion writes: > >Question: Can you please operationalize what you mean by the "reality of the > Mexica Aztec and > >other Mesoamerican civilizations" in your final sentence? Are you trying to > reconstruct what you think was the reality of the Mexica Aztec or what exactly > do you mean? Also, how does this > >"reality" connect with results from an experiment on a synthetic human cadever? > How can the results of this experiment and a citation from Francis Berdan - > provide anyone with a credible > >representation of the "reality of the Mexica Aztec"? What is this reality > based on - theory? > > > >Thanks for your response, > > > >citlalin xochime > >Nahuatl Tlahtolkalli > > Citlalin Xochime, > > As I am in the midst of an RTP review of a colleague, for the moment I > would like to respond in brief, and by way of explanations proferred by me in a > previous response to another neo-Mexica > revisionist perspective presented in yet another list-serv context and > "reality". First, the specific "reality" that I am most interested in at the > moment concerns the "neo-Mexica revisionist" (or > neo-post-modernist Mexica-Xicano) reality that has become quite vocal, and often > antagonistic to university faculty and other students who raise questions such > as those raised in my earlier post of > today. > > As a professor at the California State University, Monterey Bay, where I > teach such courses as "Art of the Aztec Empire" and "Ancient Maya > Civilizations," I soon discovered that a number of my > Latino, Mexicano, and Xicano students (and please do note that I count myself as > a member of the Xicano reality) had adopted a polemical rhetoric often seen > predominantly and exclusively among the > more zealous members of the European and American "denial movements" that > continue to proclaim such realities as that that espouses the belief that the > Nazi-inspired holocaust of WWII is little more > than a politically-motivated fiction. The "reality" in question has become the > basis for a long-term personal interest in how it is that denial movements, > ethnocentricity, and nationalism often go > hand in hand to elevate, or quash, those elements of history, art, and science > that such groups see as unsavory or demeaning. > > Significantly, your questions and challenges (not to mention, elements > of your website) fit the frameworks of analysis that I have observed to date > among those I now refer to as "neo-Mexica > revisionists." Please do note, however, I do not consider said position to be > without merit. In fact, if anything, consideration and analysis of those > questions raised by "neo-Mexica revisionists" > have in fact led me to more closely examine and analyze those diatribes that > obtain between both proponents and detractors of the "paradise lost" vision and > reality of ancient Mesoamerica. > Ultimately, I believe that the shortcomings and failings of archaeology and > ethnohistory, and the resurgence of ethnocentrically-defined movements and > nationalistically inspired academic agendas, > continue to cloud the bloody waters of human sacrifice, conflict, and warfare in > the Americas and elsewhere. > > One neo-Mexica revisionist, who also happens to be a personal > acquaintance of mine, has taken to using his pride in his adoptive Mexica roots > to teach Xicano youth about the beauty of their > ancestors and their contributions...particularly as concerns dissuading our > youth from engaging in gangland conflict and violence. Others, on the other > hand, profane the discussions by engaging in > ad hominem attacks on any and all archaeologists and ethnohistorians who have > worked to sustain Mexica Aztec studies for the better part of the past five > centuries. From Sahagun to Carrasco, they > have been attacked as racist, or characterized as one revisionist put it, as > "arqueolocos." Ironically, while these same revisionists question the facts > presented by Sahagun and others, they > nevertheless persist in using data and cultural descriptions from these same > scholars to "reconstruct" a "separate reality" of their respective heritage. > Other neo-Mexica revisionists, predominantly > Xicano, have written poetry decrying the blasphemies of the academy regarding > their ancestors, while at the same time glorifying the bloodshed and violence of > street gang warfare and drive-by > shootings. Again, my objective here is not to denigrate, but to comprehend the > very roots and affinities of the phenomenon in question. As a scientist I > suspect that you would more than fully > understand that reality is relative! > > If anything, like you, I seek to promote a forensic approach to those > vestiges of the conflict in question that take many forms. Interestingly, no > matter how many questions asked, or "facts" > interrogated, the arguments can be perpetuated indefinitely in this instance. > The following was my specific proposal to another neo-Mexica revisionist > perspective brought to bear in another context > (I will respond to other specifics latter today or tomorrow): > > > "I am in fact in agreement with your assessments. It is precisely for > said reasons that I would advocate that blood residue analysis of cult objects, > including axe blades, statuary, and vessels > (e.g., Ocelotl Cuauhxicalli), be confined to those cult objects retrieved from > pre-Hispanic archaeological contexts (e.g., Leonardo Lopez Lujan, 1994). In > addition, the analysis of bone collagen in > fact hold the potential to provenience those proteins and amino acids specific > to food group sources that would assist in the identification of from whence > such foods were consumed. This was in fact > recently done to provenience the origins of an early Copan dynast to the > Northern Yucatan. Given that the forensic analysis of bone and blood residues > now holds the potential to identify human blood > serum as old as 90,000 years BP, and that corallary analysis of amino acids and > proteins will permit the identification of (ethnic) origins, I believe that in > this way we can begin to assess Spanish > contact claims pertaining to the those core issues that remain as per the > question of human sacrifice. I am particularly concerned about the inadequacy > of forensic data pertinent to the following > questions: > > (a) Does there exist a body of prima facie forensic evidence to contest or > support recent claims by neo-Mexica revisionists (e.g., Tlapoyawa, 2002; > Mendoza, 2001; 2003) that Spanish documentation > for the existence of human sacrifice in Mesoamerica is little more than a > fabrication of Spanish conquistadores and clerics? > > (b) If, in fact, we can demonstrate that blood sacrifice was a matter of fact > among such groups as the Mexica Aztec, do we not have access to a sufficient > body of osteological evidence to specify the > forms of blood sacrifice that may have been practiced (e.g., human heart > excision, decapitation, etc.)? > > (c) Given both popular lore, and neo-Mexica revisionist claims that if, in fact, > human sacrifice was practiced, it was only another more radical form of > auto-sacrifice in which only those > self-selecting or volunteering were given over to the gods; then can either > blood residue, DNA, or bone collagen studies settle the matter of who > specifically was targeted for such a divine rite? > > and, finally, > > (d) Given revisionist claims that the practice of tearing a human heart from a > living, breathing, victim is not technically, or surgically, feasible with stone > tools (or other more modern methods > that require specialized instruments), how then do the Matamoros cult killings > of the 1980's (wherein a single individual or cult leader accomplished the same > task unassisted by attendants) provide > an "ethnographic" analog that might in turn settle this latter question? > > So, given the many questions that remain unanswered, and the many > assumptions that both scholars and the lay public make about virtually every > architectonic feature on the Mesoamerican landscape > (i.e., the notion that all "altar" platforms were in essence sacrificial sites), > how then can we fruitfully and effectively begin to bring resolve to the > questions that continue to vex Amerindian and > Mesoamericanist communities? [Note: A recent AAA symposium organized by Rick > Chacon, David Dye, and myself, was an effort in this direction]." > > You have my preliminary response...and I look forward to more on the > topic in question. To that end, I thank all who have contributed many more > questions than can be resolved in this lifetime or the > next. > > Ashkale Kuarma, > > Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director > Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization > Social and Behavioral Sciences > California State University Monterey Bay > 100 Campus Center > Seaside, California 93955-8001 > > Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu > Voice: 831-582-3760 > Fax: 831-582-3566 > http://archaeology.csumb.edu > http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ > > From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Wed Apr 21 05:41:17 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 06:41:17 +0100 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20040420173426.022b8b50@condor.depaul.edu> Message-ID: There are different sorts of human sacrifice. One sort that I have heard of was routine execution of a criminal (persistent thief or suchlike), where the tribe makes a religious ceremony out of it with such things as telling the executed man to take messages to the gods or to dead relatives of living members of the tribe. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Wed Apr 21 12:46:02 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 07:46:02 -0500 Subject: Me: Twenty Seconds to Immortality In-Reply-To: <4085F5DC.4050504@cox.net> Message-ID: Human sacrifice gets people's attention, then and now. It's just salesmanship in one form or another. Dark roots. I imagine that when, as these days, it's not culturally "sanctioned," (from "sanctus" 'holy'), then it oozes out in some other form-- genocide, perhaps. The late prehistoric and early historic Nahua peoples were obviously amazing folks. If I were a descendent, I'd certainly feel proud of my ancestors regardless. It seems that one aspect of their culture that has received little lipservice (tenyotl!), is the obviously important place in that was occupied by entheogenic plants, and their influence on cosmology, art, song, hunting, war...(human sacrifice?)... On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, micc2 wrote: > "The number itself, however, indicates "muchos"." EXACTLY!! Lost to modern readers who know nothing about allegorical or symbolic speech, is the fact that certain numbers do not mean EXACTLY that number but QUANTITIES. > > Lost in the layman's (and revisionist's) conversation is the symbolic rather than the literal representation. To echo another writer: > > "My question was more one of frustration around the seemingly continual expectation that that is what we apparently must study, if we study the Aztecs; that apparently there is little else of interest." > > Of course, having the Discovery Channel, the Learning Channel and Time-Life books always re-hash this subject, and then having the neo -mexi'cas deny everything does not help!!!! > > mario > > > > Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > >Human sacrifice is a normal human behavior, or was, has been. It's not > >pretty. But then humans are not always pretty. > > > >I imagine that the number of sacrifices, that 80,000+ thing, was never > >really known by anyone for sure who was there on at the scene. The number > >itself, however, indicates "muchos". > > > >Miguelton > > > > > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From notoca at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Apr 22 11:37:50 2004 From: notoca at HOTMAIL.COM (Chi:chi:ltic Coyo:tl) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:37:50 +0800 Subject: Az: Current Info, Excavations, etc Message-ID: Hi How does one find out what is happening today in the non-Maya parts of Mexico (eg Aztecs, Huastecs, Totonacs, Purepecha, etc) as far as new information, excavations, etc? I get to hear very little new information. What resources are there available. I see many posts on this list about the Maya and I'm "hungry" for the same sort of info on the non Maya world of Mexico. Thanks Chichiltic Coyotl From harvey.west at COX.NET Thu Apr 22 14:35:05 2004 From: harvey.west at COX.NET (harvey.west at COX.NET) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:35:05 -0400 Subject: Az: Current Info, Excavations, etc Message-ID: You might try typing 'Aztec' into Google and following the many links that come up. The first link is the Calendar. You might also try the UNAM, Templo Mayor, and INAH websites. I am more interested in the Nahua speakers in the Valley of Mexico than in the Mayan people. There are many sources of material on precolumbian Nahua culture in both Nahua and Spanish. The poetry of Nezahualcoyotl is in print today in Nahua and Spanish. How much time do you have? The sites in Mexico City are there to visit from the Summer Palace of Nezahuacoyotl at Tetzcotzinco near Texcoco to the Cerro de las Estrellas where the 'new fire' ceremony was performed every 52 years. You can't put a spade into the dirt in Mexico without uncovering the pre-Columbian past. John Carlson at University of Maryland is a Mexicanist more than a Mayanist; he has a website dedicated to archeo-astronomy. I warn you, it is like a drug. Once, you start, it is hard to stop. Mexico is utterly enchanting. H > > From: "Chi:chi:ltic Coyo:tl" > Date: 2004/04/22 Thu AM 07:37:50 EDT > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Az: Current Info, Excavations, etc > > Hi > > > > How does one find out what is happening today in the non-Maya parts of > Mexico (eg Aztecs, Huastecs, Totonacs, Purepecha, etc) as far as new > information, excavations, etc? I get to hear very little new information. > What resources are there available. I see many posts on this list about the > Maya and I'm "hungry" for the same sort of info on the non Maya world of > Mexico. > > > > Thanks > > > > Chichiltic Coyotl > Harvey West 703-850-5243 From a.aimi at TISCALINET.IT Thu Apr 22 16:35:14 2004 From: a.aimi at TISCALINET.IT (antonio aimi) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:35:14 +0200 Subject: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: Dear colleagues, this one is an old topic. as far as I know the first to make the count was Sherburne Cook in 1946 (he gives the same time: two minutes each per sacrifice- all the references are in Hugh Thomas). Counting time and counting skulls (Ortiz, 1983) can be interesting, but requires good sense, the ceremonial center of Tenochtitlan was not an industrial butchery. Have you an idea of what requires and means to deal with so many bodies ? The figures of some codices are impossible. According to mexica rituals and some chronicles, I think it can be likely the number of 5000 for whole Tenochtitlan each year. Antonio Aimi. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swood at DARKWING.UOREGON.EDU Thu Apr 22 18:02:20 2004 From: swood at DARKWING.UOREGON.EDU (Stephanie Wood) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:02:20 -0700 Subject: Az: Current Info, Excavations, etc Message-ID: We at the Wired Humanities Project at the University of Oregon are building something we call the Virtual Mesoamerican Archive, with online searchable databases of three sorts: first, a way to find out what are the holdings of all museums, archives, and libraries anywhere in the world with primary source material and three-dimensional objects from Mesoamerica; second. a way to find quality digitized materials that are already on line; and third, to locate quality, scholarly web sites that include study of primary source materials. The idea it to not only create a much more efficient Google-like tool for Mesoamericanists but also to provide encouragement for digitization. We are only in the early stages, but at some point we will put out a call for people who might be willing to contribute materials (many of you have wonderful slide collections of archaeological sites, for instance, or photocopies of manuscripts, etc.) and/or donate their time. This is all being done on a non-profit basis, and we are applying for grants to help cover the high cost of creating this tool. We have several agreements with archives and museums already. Best wishes, Stephanie Wood From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM Thu Apr 22 19:47:14 2004 From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:47:14 +0200 Subject: Oops! Message-ID: Oops! Sorry for having sent a personal message to Frances through the Nahuatl list! I pressed the send button too soon without realizing. Susana Moraleda From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM Thu Apr 22 20:12:02 2004 From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:12:02 +0200 Subject: three doubts Message-ID: Hello Fran! Thanks a lot for your reply. You are always so marvelous!! I have another question: What happens when you place the third-person singular possessive prefix to a word starting with a vowel? ialtepeuh? iez? iicniuh? iocelo? I had written to you in the past just to let you know that I hadn't forgotten you, and that I cherish happy souvenirs of the Nahuatl course I attended with you in Helsinki, but I am afraid you didn't receive my messages. Please do let me know how you are, what are you up to, and how is Albert. I send you a big hug, Love, Susana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frances Karttunen" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 9:58 PM Subject: Re: three doubts > Hello Susana! > > > (1) Plural reverential forms > > Should one add the plural suffix to a noun and then the singular > > reverential? NANTINTZIN? > > or plural suffix and plural reverential? NANTINTZITZIN? > > or no plural suffix and just plural reverential? NANTZITZIN? > > The honorific goes between the noun stem and the absolutive suffix (singular > or plural). The honorific suffix reduplicates in the plural. Singular > -tzin-tli; plural -tzitzin-tin. In possessed forms, the singular is -tzin > and the plural is -tzitzin-huan. > > > > 2) Stems > > Is there a rule saying that whenever there are two vowels at the end of a > > stem (i.e. TOCAITL, MAITL, TEMACHTIANI) one is to delete the last vowel > > (TOCA, MA, TEMACHTI) ? > > No. A number of "small" words like tocaitl and maitl drop the -i- as well > as the absolutive suffix to form the stem (toca-, ma-). Temachtiani doesn't > drop anything. It's a noun derived from a verb, and doesn't take a singular > absolutive suffix (-tl or -in). The plural is formed either by adding a > final saltillo (temachtianih) or by suppletion (temachtihqueh). > > > > > > > 3) Endings > > Did nouns like CHICHI once have a traditional ending? (TL, TLI, LI, IN). > > No. It is thought to be a loan word. > > > Is the stem "chich"? > > No. It is chichi. > > > (chichitontli or chichtontli?) > > Chichiton. I don't think there would be anything wrong with chichitontli, > though. The plural is chichitotontin. > > > But this is just based on the body of classical Nahuatl texts. > Geographically and temporally there is lots of variation, so one can't > really say anything is absolutely right or wrong. > > > Fran > > From antonio.aimi at TIN.IT Fri Apr 23 13:38:58 2004 From: antonio.aimi at TIN.IT (antonio aimi) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:38:58 +0200 Subject: Twenty Seconds to Immortality Message-ID: Dear colleagues, this one is an old topic. as far as I know the first to make the count was Sherburne Cook in 1946 (he gives the same time: two minutes each per sacrifice- all the references are in Hugh Thomas). Counting time and counting skulls (Ortiz, 1983) can be interesting, but requires good sense, the ceremonial center of Tenochtitlan was not an industrial butchery. Have you an idea of what requires and means to deal with so many bodies ? The figures of some codices are impossible. According to mexica rituals and some chronicles, I think it can be likely the number of 5000 for whole Tenochtitlan each year. Antonio Aimi. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Fri Apr 23 22:27:54 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:27:54 -0400 Subject: three doubts In-Reply-To: <03c201c428a6$55bb7fd0$629cd351@mexico> Message-ID: on 4/22/04 4:12 PM, Susana Moraleda-Dragotto at susana at DRAGOTTO.COM wrote: > Hello Fran! > Thanks a lot for your reply. You are always so marvelous!! I have > another > question: What happens when you place the third-person singular possessive > prefix to a word starting with a vowel? > ialtepeuh? > iez? > iicniuh? > iocelo? When the third person singular possessive prefix i:- (long vowel) is added to a stem beginning with i, in principle there are three morae (i:-i), but Nahuatl does not distinguish long vowels from overlong vowels, so perceptually i:-i is equivalent to simple i:-. > > I had written to you in the past just to let you know that I hadn't > forgotten you, and that I cherish happy souvenirs of the Nahuatl course I > attended with you in Helsinki, but I am afraid you didn't receive my > messages. I suppose I haven't, and I am sorry I didn't get your messages. That was a food time in Helsinki. Al says hello. He recalls our supper with you in Rome with great fondness. Fran From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Fri Apr 23 23:33:35 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:33:35 -0500 Subject: three doubts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Susana, One common strategy that would apply well to the i:ez and i:altepeuh examples you cite is to fuse the possessive to in, such as inialtepeuh, or sometimes just nialtepeuh to elmininate the awkwardness of two open vowels; also a "y" would be likely to be introduced in i:ez -- niyez. These strategies at least have been common in Tlaxcala although I can't attest for other regions. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM Wed Apr 28 16:21:57 2004 From: Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM (Ian Mursell) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:21:57 +0100 Subject: appeal for help and encouragement! In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20040309112242.01f0e4f8@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I've been a passive member of this list for some time. I hope now to seek your interest and help with an educational service on Aztec culture based here in London, UK. Mexicolore is a specialist independent educational service on Mexico and the Aztecs, established in London in 1980. Our team have worked in over 1,000 schools, museums, art galleries, and other educational venues throughout England, working with some 100,000 children. We work closely with the British Museum Education Service, the Museum of Mankind (BM Ethnography Department) and most recently with the Royal Academy of Arts, in support of their major exhibition on the Aztecs that ended a year ago. I think it's safe to say that we are the leading providers of educational services on the Aztecs in this country, and our website is a prime source of information and links, not only for schools but for all those interested in learning about Aztec civilization. We have just uploaded a new 'Aztec Pronunciation' page on our site, to enable enquirers - particularly children - to check the pronunciation of key 'Aztec' names and words that frequently feature in project work on the Aztecs. My main concern at this stage is simple verification! I'm keen to correct and improve any errors, to the best of my ability. Please remember that this resource is VERY introductory, and perfection is perhaps not needed! However, we intend to add constantly to this page both in quantity and quality, with plenty of background material on N?huatl. I would be hugely grateful if one or more of you, as experts, could cast a beady eye/ear over the page and let me have your immediate comments, suggestions, criticisms... I'm not sure how I can access the correct sounds, assuming there are errors, but I'm confident we could find a way to resolve this. Many thanks in anticipation... Best regards y muchos saludos desde Londres Ian Ian Mursell Director Mexicolore 28 Warriner Gardens London SW11 4EB, U.K. Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 3643 www.mexicolore.co.uk Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com Bringing Mexico and the Aztecs to life in schools and museums throughout England - and now via the internet! - since 1980 From institute at CSUMB.EDU Wed Apr 28 17:45:13 2004 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:45:13 -0700 Subject: appeal for help and encouragement! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nahua language and culture discussion writes: >Dear Colleagues, > >I've been a passive member of this list for some time. I hope now to seek >your interest and help with an educational service on Aztec culture based >here in London, UK. > >Mexicolore is a specialist independent educational service on Mexico and the >Aztecs, established in London in 1980. Our team have worked in over 1,000 >schools, museums, art galleries, and other educational venues throughout >England, working with some 100,000 children. We work closely with the >British Museum Education Service, the Museum of Mankind (BM Ethnography >Department) and most recently with the Royal Academy of Arts, in support of >their major exhibition on the Aztecs that ended a year ago. > >I think it's safe to say that we are the leading providers of educational >services on the Aztecs in this country, and our website is a prime source of >information and links, not only for schools but for all those interested in >learning about Aztec civilization. > >We have just uploaded a new 'Aztec Pronunciation' page on our site, to >enable enquirers - particularly children - to check the pronunciation of key >'Aztec' names and words that frequently feature in project work on the >Aztecs. > >My main concern at this stage is simple verification! I'm keen to correct >and improve any errors, to the best of my ability. Please remember that >this resource is VERY introductory, and perfection is perhaps not needed! >However, we intend to add constantly to this page both in quantity and >quality, with plenty of background material on N?huatl. > >I would be hugely grateful if one or more of you, as experts, could cast a >beady eye/ear over the page and let me have your immediate comments, >suggestions, criticisms... > >I'm not sure how I can access the correct sounds, assuming there are errors, >but I'm confident we could find a way to resolve this. > >Many thanks in anticipation... > >Best regards y muchos saludos desde Londres > >Ian > >Ian Mursell >Director >Mexicolore >28 Warriner Gardens >London SW11 4EB, U.K. >Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577 >Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 3643 >www.mexicolore.co.uk >Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com > >Bringing Mexico and the Aztecs to life in schools and museums throughout >England - and now via the internet! - since 1980 > >-- >This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn >more about virus protection at CSUMB, visit: > >http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ > Dear Ian, I quickly perused your Nahuatl glossary and was impressed with the fact that it has an audio component. While other audio glossaries exist for many indigenous languages, such as Dene or Navajo, your overview of terms for grade school kids provides a wonderful introduction to the language via the pronunciation of key terms. On another note, the only terms with which I sensed a variation from standard Mexica forms were those specific to Telpohcalli and Petate/metate. Depending on the regional variant of Nahuatl used (e.g., Veracruz nahuatl usage), I suspect that the variation may be accommodated as noted. Otherwise, good luck on your project. Best Regards, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. From Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM Wed Apr 28 21:57:05 2004 From: Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM (Ian Mursell) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 22:57:05 +0100 Subject: appeal for help and encouragement! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Nahua language and culture discussion writes: >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> I've been a passive member of this list for some time. I hope now to seek >> your interest and help with an educational service on Aztec culture based >> here in London, UK. >> >> Mexicolore is a specialist independent educational service on Mexico and the >> Aztecs, established in London in 1980. Our team have worked in over 1,000 >> schools, museums, art galleries, and other educational venues throughout >> England, working with some 100,000 children. We work closely with the >> British Museum Education Service, the Museum of Mankind (BM Ethnography >> Department) and most recently with the Royal Academy of Arts, in support of >> their major exhibition on the Aztecs that ended a year ago. >> >> I think it's safe to say that we are the leading providers of educational >> services on the Aztecs in this country, and our website is a prime source of >> information and links, not only for schools but for all those interested in >> learning about Aztec civilization. >> >> We have just uploaded a new 'Aztec Pronunciation' page on our site, to >> enable enquirers - particularly children - to check the pronunciation of key >> 'Aztec' names and words that frequently feature in project work on the >> Aztecs. >> >> My main concern at this stage is simple verification! I'm keen to correct >> and improve any errors, to the best of my ability. Please remember that >> this resource is VERY introductory, and perfection is perhaps not needed! >> However, we intend to add constantly to this page both in quantity and >> quality, with plenty of background material on N?huatl. >> >> I would be hugely grateful if one or more of you, as experts, could cast a >> beady eye/ear over the page and let me have your immediate comments, >> suggestions, criticisms... >> >> I'm not sure how I can access the correct sounds, assuming there are errors, >> but I'm confident we could find a way to resolve this. >> >> Many thanks in anticipation... >> >> Best regards y muchos saludos desde Londres >> >> Ian >> >> Ian Mursell >> Director >> Mexicolore >> 28 Warriner Gardens >> London SW11 4EB, U.K. >> Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577 >> Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 3643 >> www.mexicolore.co.uk >> Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com >> >> Bringing Mexico and the Aztecs to life in schools and museums throughout >> England - and now via the internet! - since 1980 >> >> -- >> This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous >> attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening >> attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn >> more about virus protection at CSUMB, visit: >> >> http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ >> > Dear Ian, > > I quickly perused your Nahuatl glossary and was impressed with the fact > that it has an audio component. While other audio glossaries exist for many > indigenous languages, such as Dene or Navajo, > your overview of terms for grade school kids provides a wonderful introduction > to the language via the pronunciation of key terms. > > On another note, the only terms with which I sensed a variation from > standard Mexica forms were those specific to Telpohcalli and Petate/metate. > Depending on the regional variant of Nahuatl used > (e.g., Veracruz nahuatl usage), I suspect that the variation may be > accommodated as noted. Otherwise, good luck on your project. > > Best Regards, > > Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director > Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization > Social and Behavioral Sciences > California State University Monterey Bay > 100 Campus Center > Seaside, California 93955-8001 > > Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu > Voice: 831-582-3760 > Fax: 831-582-3566 > http://archaeology.csumb.edu > http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ > > > > > > Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is > sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the > use of the individual or entity named above. > If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, > copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is > prohibited. If you received this communication > in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the > original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any > network to which your computer is connected. > > Thank you. Dear Ruben, Thank you very much indeed for your comments, and for taking the trouble. I'm relieved and encouraged that we seem to be on the right track. I think I see the mistake in 'telpohcalli' - should it be 'telpochcalli'? But I'm confused over petate/metate, except that you've drawn attention to the fact that I should have written them in the N?huatl 'petlatl' and 'metlatl'. Is this what you meant? Sorry to be na?ve on this. Kind regards, Ian Ian Mursell Director Mexicolore 28 Warriner Gardens London SW11 4EB, U.K. Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 3643 www.mexicolore.co.uk Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com Bringing Mexico and the Aztecs to life in schools and museums throughout England - and now via the internet! - since 1980 From institute at CSUMB.EDU Wed Apr 28 23:42:44 2004 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 16:42:44 -0700 Subject: appeal for help and encouragement! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nahua language and culture discussion writes: >I think I see the mistake in 'telpohcalli' - should it be 'telpochcalli'? >But I'm confused over petate/metate, except that you've drawn attention to >the fact that I should have written them in the N?huatl 'petlatl' and >'metlatl'. Is this what you meant? Sorry to be na?ve on this. > >Kind regards, > >Ian Dear Ian, Telpochcalli is the standard...although, once again, variations may occur depending on your sources. And, where petate/metate is concerned, the spelling is what essentially needs to be changed...although the pronunciation is good. Best Wishes, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. From MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM Thu Apr 29 07:13:23 2004 From: MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM (Maria) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 00:13:23 -0700 Subject: appeal for help and encouragement! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello, I visited Ian?s page and loved it. I understood xocoatl meant xoco, amargo/sour and atl agua/water. Agua amarga... me equivoco o la "l" vino de la fon?tica latina. I thought too the accent on tomatl should fall on atl. Can someone explain to me the literal meaning of petate and metate? I know they are a floor mat and a grinder but I want to analyze the words. I loved having the possibility of a sounding glossary. I am tempted to copy the idea. Thanks. Mar?a Dolores "We don?t see things as they are, We see things as we are." Anais Nin Dr. Mar?a D. Bol?var MBOLIVAR at san.rr.com From robert at COATLI.COM Thu Apr 29 10:04:35 2004 From: robert at COATLI.COM (robert barkaloff) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 03:04:35 -0700 Subject: petate and metate In-Reply-To: <001101c42db9$760c3e10$8fcc4a42@Main> Message-ID: Maria wrote: >Hello, I visited Ian?s page and loved it. > >I understood xocoatl meant xoco, amargo/sour and atl agua/water. Agua >amarga... me equivoco o la "l" vino de la fon?tica latina. > >I thought too the accent on tomatl should fall on atl. >Can someone explain to me the literal meaning of petate and metate? I >know they are a floor mat and a grinder but I want to analyze the words. > >I loved having the possibility of a sounding glossary. I am tempted to >copy the idea. Thanks. > >Mar?a Dolores > > >"We don?t see things as they are, >We see things as we are." >Anais Nin > >Dr. Mar?a D. Bol?var >MBOLIVAR at san.rr.com > > > > H everyone, With regards to Maria Bolivar's question, here are some conjectures: I believe "petate" is from "petl-atl," or "water rock," or, something that can make stone feel as soft as water. I think "metate" is from "metl-atl," or "moon-water." I'm not as convinced about this metaphor, but I think maybe it has to do with creating the water (atl) from which the moon (metl) is created -- the moon being "tlaxcalli (tortilla)." It will be interesting to see others' notes on this. Robert Barkaloff From dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX Thu Apr 29 13:25:30 2004 From: dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX (David Wright) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 08:25:30 -0500 Subject: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli Message-ID: Dear Ian: Nice site. I think there are some phonetic problems with the four words containing the morpheme tecuh(tli) ("Mictlantecuhtli", "Tlaltecuhtli" and "Moctezuma"). The way the first two are spelled, as I (think I) understand it, reflects one of the imprecisions of colonial Nahuatl othography. There's really no /u/ in 16th century central Nahuatl except as an allophone of /o/, but in "tecuhtli" this allophone is not represented. The digraphs "cu", "qu" and "uc", when they appear in colonial texts, all represent a consonant, not a syllable. This phoneme is a sort of /k/ pronounced with rounded lips, which can be written phonetically as /kw/ (superscript w). Thus "tecuhtli" (also spelled "teuctli" in many sources), is really /tekwtli/ (superscript w). The "h" in "tecuhtli" adds to the confusion. It's probably there because the digraphs "hu" and "uh" were used to write the semiconsonant /w/, which puts the lips in the same position as /kw/, ignoring what's going on behind them. Solution? It would be less confusing to spell these words as Mictlanteuctli, Tlalteuctli and Moteuczoma. These forms are found in colonial and modern literature, so they don't break with the traditional orthography you use in the other words. "Moctezuma" can be scrapped, both in the written and the audio files, since it's not a Nahuatl word, just a loan from Nahuatl to Castillian. There are people on this list that know more about Nahuatl phonology than I do; if you're reading this, please correct me if I'm wrong (or too confident on a topic as hypothetical as 16th century pronunciation; all of the people who wrote the texts are dead and unavailable for consultation). Peace, David Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Apr 29 13:28:00 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:28:00 -0400 Subject: petate and metate In-Reply-To: <4090D333.2010103@coatli.com> Message-ID: >> >> I thought too the accent on tomatl should fall on atl. The stress in basic Nahuatl falls on the penultimate syllable (except in some dialects where final syllables have been lost, and under some other contextual circumstances). When a Nahuatl word is borrowed into Spanish, the stress more often than not gets moved: TO-matl > to-MA-te; ME-tlatl > me-TA-te; PE-tlatl > pe-TA-te, etc. The same is true of borrowings in the other direction: SA-ba-do 'Saturday' > xa-PA-toh. > > I believe "petate" is from "petl-atl," or "water rock," or, something > that can make stone feel as soft as water. I think "metate" is from > "metl-atl," or "moon-water." I'm not as convinced about this metaphor, > but I think maybe it has to do with creating the water (atl) from which > the moon (metl) is created -- the moon being "tlaxcalli (tortilla)." > These are attractive metaphors, but they fall into the realm of what is known as folk etymology. Simeon's dictionary contains quite a number of such etymologies, which is why we need to be careful about what we find in dictionaries, even venerable old ones that are, for the most part, full of reliable information. From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Apr 29 14:01:35 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:01:35 -0500 Subject: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli In-Reply-To: <008b01c42ded$7824e740$5c56e994@dcwright> Message-ID: Quoting David Wright : > Dear Ian: > > Nice site. I think there are some phonetic problems with the four words > containing the morpheme tecuh(tli) ("Mictlantecuhtli", "Tlaltecuhtli" and > "Moctezuma"). The way the first two are spelled, as I (think I) understand > it, reflects one of the imprecisions of colonial Nahuatl othography. There's > really no /u/ in 16th century central Nahuatl except as an allophone of /o/, > but in "tecuhtli" this allophone is not represented. The digraphs "cu", "qu" > and "uc", when they appear in colonial texts, all represent a consonant, not > a syllable. This phoneme is a sort of /k/ pronounced with rounded lips, which > can be written phonetically as /kw/ (superscript w). Thus "tecuhtli" (also > spelled "teuctli" in many sources), is really /tekwtli/ (superscript w). The > "h" in "tecuhtli" adds to the confusion. It's probably there because the > digraphs "hu" and "uh" were used to write the semiconsonant /w/, which puts > the lips in the same position as /kw/, ignoring what's going on behind them. I haven't had the time yet to look at your site, but Dave has made some excellent points, Ian. The only thing I would add is vowel length. Since vowel length is phonemic in Nahuatl, Dave's phonemic /tekwtli/ is actually /te:kwtli/, where the digraphs /kw/ and /tl/ are actually unit phonemes (and thus in actual, "vigorous" linguistic transcription would each be represented by a single symbol, in the first case by a k with superscript w and in the second case by a Greek lambda. > > Solution? It would be less confusing to spell these words as Mictlanteuctli, > Tlalteuctli and Moteuczoma. These forms are found in colonial and modern > literature, so they don't break with the traditional orthography you use in > the other words. "Moctezuma" can be scrapped, both in the written and the > audio files, since it's not a Nahuatl word, just a loan from Nahuatl to > Castillian. All good points. Michael From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Apr 29 14:04:46 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:04:46 -0500 Subject: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli In-Reply-To: <1083247295.40910abfb1767@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I should have added that "teuctli" is composed of only *two* syllables: /te:kw-/ + /-tli/, and, of course, the penultimate syllable is strong. The pronunciation of this word and others noted by Dave is "exotic" for speakers of European languages and require some practice to master. Michael On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 mmccaffe at indiana.edu wrote: > Quoting David Wright : > > > Dear Ian: > > > > Nice site. I think there are some phonetic problems with the four words > > containing the morpheme tecuh(tli) ("Mictlantecuhtli", "Tlaltecuhtli" and > > "Moctezuma"). The way the first two are spelled, as I (think I) understand > > it, reflects one of the imprecisions of colonial Nahuatl othography. There's > > really no /u/ in 16th century central Nahuatl except as an allophone of /o/, > > but in "tecuhtli" this allophone is not represented. The digraphs "cu", "qu" > > and "uc", when they appear in colonial texts, all represent a consonant, not > > a syllable. This phoneme is a sort of /k/ pronounced with rounded lips, which > > can be written phonetically as /kw/ (superscript w). Thus "tecuhtli" (also > > spelled "teuctli" in many sources), is really /tekwtli/ (superscript w). The > > "h" in "tecuhtli" adds to the confusion. It's probably there because the > > digraphs "hu" and "uh" were used to write the semiconsonant /w/, which puts > > the lips in the same position as /kw/, ignoring what's going on behind them. > > I haven't had the time yet to look at your site, but > Dave has made some excellent points, Ian. The only thing I would add is vowel > length. Since vowel length is phonemic in Nahuatl, Dave's phonemic /tekwtli/ is > actually /te:kwtli/, where the digraphs /kw/ and /tl/ are actually unit > phonemes (and thus in actual, "vigorous" linguistic transcription would each be > represented by a single symbol, in the first case by a k with superscript w and > in the second case by a Greek lambda. > > > > > Solution? It would be less confusing to spell these words as Mictlanteuctli, > > Tlalteuctli and Moteuczoma. These forms are found in colonial and modern > > literature, so they don't break with the traditional orthography you use in > > the other words. "Moctezuma" can be scrapped, both in the written and the > > audio files, since it's not a Nahuatl word, just a loan from Nahuatl to > > Castillian. > > All good points. > > Michael "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM Thu Apr 29 14:08:07 2004 From: Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM (Ian Mursell) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 15:08:07 +0100 Subject: appeal for help and encouragement! In-Reply-To: <001101c42db9$760c3e10$8fcc4a42@Main> Message-ID: Hello all. Though I've replied individually to some respondents who've written to me directly, I'd just like to say at this point a big Thank-you to everyone who is contributing to this thread. I'm learning so much from it all, and of course will shortly be making some corrections to the site. Please keep it flowing...! Saludos, Ian PS. What might be a 'standard' equivalent of 'Saludos' in N?huatl? Is there one, or could someone offer a simple greeting I could add to the site? When I was in San Isidro Buensuceso back in the early '70s, I learnt to say (if I remember right) 'Tlen conchihua?' to which people generally replied 'Amuntla' - i.e. The greeting went 'What are you doing?' 'Nothing'. How widespread is this? I'm hoping to learn and upload a greeting with a slightly more culturally positive ring to it!! Perhaps there's a N?huatl equivalent to the Spanish 'Como amaneciste?' Ian Mursell Director Mexicolore 28 Warriner Gardens London SW11 4EB, U.K. Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 3643 www.mexicolore.co.uk Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com Bringing Mexico and the Aztecs to life in schools and museums throughout England - and now via the internet! - since 1980 From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Thu Apr 29 14:25:36 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 15:25:36 +0100 Subject: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael Mccafferty wrote: > I should have added that "teuctli" is composed of only *two* syllables: > /te:kw-/ + /-tli/, and, of course, the penultimate syllable is strong. > The pronunciation of this word and others noted by Dave is "exotic" for > speakers of European languages and require some practice to master. Someone raised this matter a year or two ago. I advised him to say [te_cuatli], stressed on the [e_], and then to gradually get rid of the [a] without letting the [w] disappear or turn into [u]. (This is probably very off topic, but people who decide to get interested with the Klingon language that Marc Okrand invented, there also have to cross swords with the [tl] sound.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Apr 29 14:29:17 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:29:17 -0500 Subject: appeal for help and encouragement! In-Reply-To: <001101c42db9$760c3e10$8fcc4a42@Main> Message-ID: At 02:13 AM 4/29/2004, you wrote: >I thought too the accent on tomatl should fall on atl. In Nahuatl the stress always falls on the next-to-last syllable, with only one exception, the vocative form. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Apr 29 14:33:21 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:33:21 -0500 Subject: petate and metate In-Reply-To: <4090D333.2010103@coatli.com> Message-ID: At 05:04 AM 4/29/2004, you wrote: >I believe "petate" is from "petl-atl," or "water rock," or, something >that can make stone feel as soft as water. I think "metate" is from >"metl-atl," or "moon-water." I'm not as convinced about this metaphor, >but I think maybe it has to do with creating the water (atl) from which >the moon (metl) is created -- the moon being "tlaxcalli (tortilla)." No. Metlatl and petlatl are not "from" anything. They just are. The moon is mixtli. Metaphorically or symbolically it might be compared to a tortilla, just as we refer top it as green cheese. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Apr 29 15:31:29 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 10:31:29 -0500 Subject: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli In-Reply-To: <20040429142536.35546.qmail@web86302.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Quoting ANTHONY APPLEYARD : > Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > I should have added that "teuctli" is composed of only *two* syllables: > > /te:kw-/ + /-tli/, and, of course, the penultimate syllable is strong. > > The pronunciation of this word and others noted by Dave is "exotic" for > > speakers of European languages and require some practice to master. > Michael says: I didn't receive this posting or the one I sent that preceded it. In any event, here is what I wrote that preceded it: "I haven't had the time yet to look at your site, but Dave has made some excellent points, Ian. The only thing I would add is vowel length. Since vowel length is phonemic in Nahuatl, Dave's phonemic /tekwtli/ is actually /te:kwtli/, where the digraphs /kw/ and /tl/ are actually unit phonemes (and thus in actual, "vigorous" linguistic transcription would each be represented by a single symbol, in the first case by a k with superscript w and in the second case by a Greek lambda." > Someone raised this matter a year or two ago. I advised him to say > [te_cuatli], stressed on the [e_], and then to gradually get rid of the [a] > without letting the [w] disappear or turn into [u]. > > Interesting. I've had success just teaching students to first learn to say [te:kw-], which is not that hard. Then I have them say [-tli] several times. And then combine the two sounds. In truth, I don't think there is really any challenge in learning how to ** pronounce** "teuctli" and "Moteuczoma," etc. The challenge is learning how to not get distracted by the orthography. The sounds are easy. Michael > From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Apr 29 15:55:41 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 11:55:41 -0400 Subject: petate and metate In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040429093124.01c7cf28@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: > The moon is mixtli. Actually mixtli is 'cloud.' From micc2 at COX.NET Thu Apr 29 16:43:34 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (Mario E. Aguilar) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:43:34 -0400 Subject: petate and metate Message-ID: I thought that it was "me:ztli" I thought "mixtli" was cloud...... as in Mixteco > > No. Metlatl and petlatl are not "from" anything. They just are. The moon > is mixtli. Metaphorically or symbolically it might be compared to a > tortilla, just as we refer top it as green cheese. > > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at mrs.umn.edu > From micc2 at COX.NET Thu Apr 29 16:49:16 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (Mario E. Aguilar) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:49:16 -0400 Subject: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli Message-ID: Especially when the remedy "teuctli" is worse than the ailment "tecutli" I have hear novices try to say te-uc-tli and think that that is correct. I would rather have people say te-cu-tli (closer to the real te-Kw-tl) and later try to explain live and in person the "exotic" sound of Kw! > > From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU > Date: 2004/04/29 Thu AM 11:31:29 EDT > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Re: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli > > Quoting ANTHONY APPLEYARD : > > > Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > > I should have added that "teuctli" is composed of only *two* syllables: > > > /te:kw-/ + /-tli/, and, of course, the penultimate syllable is strong. > > > The pronunciation of this word and others noted by Dave is "exotic" for > > > speakers of European languages and require some practice to master. > > > > Michael says: > > I didn't receive this posting or the one I sent that preceded it. In any event, > here is what I wrote that preceded it: > > "I haven't had the time yet to look at your site, but > Dave has made some excellent points, Ian. The only thing I would add is vowel > length. Since vowel length is phonemic in Nahuatl, Dave's phonemic /tekwtli/ is > actually /te:kwtli/, where the digraphs /kw/ and /tl/ are actually unit > phonemes (and thus in actual, "vigorous" linguistic transcription would each be > represented by a single symbol, in the first case by a k with superscript w and > in the second case by a Greek lambda." > > > > > > > Someone raised this matter a year or two ago. I advised him to say > > [te_cuatli], stressed on the [e_], and then to gradually get rid of the [a] > > without letting the [w] disappear or turn into [u]. > > > > > Interesting. I've had success just teaching students to first learn to say > [te:kw-], which is not that hard. Then I have them say [-tli] several times. > And then combine the two sounds. > > In truth, I don't think there is really any challenge in learning how to ** > pronounce** "teuctli" and "Moteuczoma," etc. The challenge is learning how to > not get distracted by the orthography. The sounds are easy. > > Michael > > > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Apr 29 16:59:38 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 11:59:38 -0500 Subject: petate and metate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: the word for moon is /me:tztli/. On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Frances Karttunen wrote: > > The moon is mixtli. > > Actually mixtli is 'cloud.' > > > "Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." -Groucho Marx "When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." -Gracie Allen From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Apr 29 17:09:01 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:09:01 -0500 Subject: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli In-Reply-To: <20040429164916.USEY559.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> Message-ID: Quoting "" : > Especially when the remedy "teuctli" is worse than the ailment "tecutli" I > have hear novices try to say > te-uc-tli and think that that is correct. I would rather have people say > te-cu-tli (closer to the real te-Kw-tl) and later try to explain live and in > person the "exotic" sound of Kw! But it is important to remember that, in teaching the erroneous pronunciation "te-cu-tli," you are also engraving in their memories the possibility that -tli is added to stems that end in vowels, which is not true. -tli is added to stems that end in consonants, which is exactly what /te:kw-/ is. The pronunciation of [te:kw-] is as simple as pie to teach and to learn. I teach it to my students in 30 seconds. As I noted earlier, the problem is really not pronunciation; the problem is a confusing orthography. However, if the teacher does not have a firm grasp of Nahuatl phonetics, then the student may not have the opportunity to learn the pronunciation correctly. Michael > > > > > > > From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU > > Date: 2004/04/29 Thu AM 11:31:29 EDT > > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > > Subject: Re: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli > > > > Quoting ANTHONY APPLEYARD : > > > > > Michael Mccafferty wrote: > > > > I should have added that "teuctli" is composed of only *two* > syllables: > > > > /te:kw-/ + /-tli/, and, of course, the penultimate syllable is strong. > > > > The pronunciation of this word and others noted by Dave is "exotic" > for > > > > speakers of European languages and require some practice to master. > > > > > > > Michael says: > > > > I didn't receive this posting or the one I sent that preceded it. In any > event, > > here is what I wrote that preceded it: > > > > "I haven't had the time yet to look at your site, but > > Dave has made some excellent points, Ian. The only thing I would add is > vowel > > length. Since vowel length is phonemic in Nahuatl, Dave's phonemic > /tekwtli/ is > > actually /te:kwtli/, where the digraphs /kw/ and /tl/ are actually unit > > phonemes (and thus in actual, "vigorous" linguistic transcription would > each be > > represented by a single symbol, in the first case by a k with superscript w > and > > in the second case by a Greek lambda." > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone raised this matter a year or two ago. I advised him to say > > > [te_cuatli], stressed on the [e_], and then to gradually get rid of the > [a] > > > without letting the [w] disappear or turn into [u]. > > > > > > > > Interesting. I've had success just teaching students to first learn to say > > [te:kw-], which is not that hard. Then I have them say [-tli] several > times. > > And then combine the two sounds. > > > > In truth, I don't think there is really any challenge in learning how to > ** > > pronounce** "teuctli" and "Moteuczoma," etc. The challenge is learning how > to > > not get distracted by the orthography. The sounds are easy. > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Apr 29 18:21:48 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 13:21:48 -0500 Subject: petate and metate In-Reply-To: <20040429164334.XKTN14138.fed1rmmtao02.cox.net@smtp.west.co x.net> Message-ID: At 11:43 AM 4/29/2004, you wrote: >I thought that it was "me:ztli" >I thought "mixtli" was cloud...... as in Mixteco > > > > > > No. Metlatl and petlatl are not "from" anything. They just are. The moon > > is mixtli. Metaphorically or symbolically it might be compared to a > > tortilla, just as we refer top it as green cheese My error. It is just proof that the fingers should not be put into gear until the brain is fully functional My apologies John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From drd30 at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Apr 29 18:40:50 2004 From: drd30 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Dan Deneen) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 14:40:50 -0400 Subject: Malintzin Message-ID: Might I get some of you to weigh in on a question about the name Malintzin/Malinche? The Spanish chroniclers tell us that Cort?s and his interpreter were both called ?Malinche? (?Malintzin.?) Frances Kartunnen argued (1997) that both of them may have been seen as ixiptla for a previously obscure, or unknown, divine entity itself called, ?Malintzin?. This has been the most interesting and persuasive of the explanations I?ve come across, and I?d love to know if Ms. Kartunnen has had an opportunity to further develop the argument, or if any of this distinguished company might have thoughts on the naming. And, more specifically: are there indigenous sources which apply the name, ?Malintzin? to both Marina and Cortes? Are there other examples of prominent linked figures bearing the same name? What of Bernal D del C's note that a soldier (often in the company of Marina) named Juan Perez de Arteaga was also called "Malinche?" And finally, what if anything, might have been the grammatical distinctions made in speaking third-person about Malintzin (him), Malintzin (her), and Malintzin (the god??) Thanks, Dan --a longtime "lurker" on Nahuat-L, finally piping up Dan Deneen Strafford, Vermont www.deneenstreet.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Apr 29 19:16:11 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 15:16:11 -0400 Subject: Malintzin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > What if anything, might have been the grammatical distinctions made in > speaking third-person about Malintzin (him), Malintzin (her), and Malintzin > (the god??) No morphological distinctions at all that I can think of. In Nahuatl there are grammatical distinctions based on human/nonhuman, animate/inanimate, and specific/nonspecific, but not human/superhuman. Nahuatl makes no masculine/feminine third-person distinction. There is a distinction between male vocative and female vocative, but that refers to the speaker, not to who/what is spoken of. And the honorific -tzin is there in all three cases. Can anyone on the list think of any subtle difference between mentioning a human honorifically and mentioning a deity? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrharri1 at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Thu Apr 29 20:00:28 2004 From: mrharri1 at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (MAX R HARRIS) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 15:00:28 -0500 Subject: Malintzin Message-ID: Dan, I know of no other sources that call both Cortes and his mistress/translator Malinche. The most persuasive explanation I've come across for the Nahua giving Cortes his female translator's name (assuming Bernal Diaz's account is correct on this detail) is that it was she who spoke for him, i.e. she is his voice, so he bears her name. (Unfortunately, I can't remember the source of this explanation: I suspect it was offered verbally at a conference rather than published anywhere!) Whether it diminished Cortes in the Nahua mind to give him a female interpreter's name, I don't know. I have, however, made several lengthy attempts to understand the role of Malinche in Mesoamerican danzas. The Malinche of the dances is emphatically not Cortes's translator, but generally either partners Moctezuma (in conquest dances) or is independent. The notion of Malinche as an ixiptla in this context is not a bad one. Her name in the dances may derive, like the mountain in the state of Tlaxcala now known as La Malinche, from a pre-Christian deity, Matlalcueye. But it may also derive from the imported Spanish "deity," the Virgin Mary. "Blessed Maria" becomes in Nahuatl "Malintzin," or, in hispancized Nahautl, "Malinche." That the name Maringuilla, or "little Mary," is often substituted for Malinche in the danzas, perhaps suggests that the link with the Virgin is more likely. But the two derivations are not mutually exclusive. If you're interested, you can read my developing thoughts on the Malinche of the dances at greater length in: "Moctezuma's Daughter: The Role of La Malinche in Mesoamerican Dance," The Journal of American Folklore 109 (1996):149-177 "Sweet Moll and Malinche: Maid Marian Goes to Mexico," in Playing Robin Hood: The Legend as Performance in Five Centuries, ed. Lois Potter (Associated University Presses, 1998), 101-110. Aztecs, Moors, and Christians: Festivals of Reconquest in Mexico and Spain (University of Texas Press, 2000), 237-250 Carnival and Other Christian Festivals: Folk Theology and Folk Performance (University of Texas Press, 2003), 50-64. The latter pieces modify and (I hope) correct the earlier in ceryain details. As for the historical Malinche, my own best guess at this point would be that her baptismal name was Maria, to which the Nahua honorific -tzin was added in recognition of her stature as Cortes's mouthpiece, so becoming, in Nahuatl, "Malintzin," and, in hispanicized Nahuatl, "Malinche." In other words, her name slid from Maria to Malinche just like the Virgin Mary after whom she was renamed at her baptism. Best wishes, Max Max Harris, Executive Director Wisconsin Humanities Council 222 South Bedford Street, Suite F Madison, WI 53703 Tel: 608/262-0706 Fax: 608/263-7970 ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Deneen Date: Thursday, April 29, 2004 1:40 pm Subject: Malintzin > Might I get some of you to weigh in on a question about the name > Malintzin/Malinche? The Spanish chroniclers tell us that Cort?s > and his > interpreter were both called ?Malinche? (?Malintzin.?) Frances > Kartunnenargued (1997) that both of them may have been seen as > ixiptla for a > previously obscure, or unknown, divine entity itself called, > ?Malintzin?.This has been the most interesting and persuasive of > the explanations I?ve > come across, and I?d love to know if Ms. Kartunnen has had an > opportunityto further develop the argument, or if any of this > distinguished company > might have thoughts on the naming. And, more specifically: are there > indigenous sources which apply the name, ?Malintzin? to both > Marina and > Cortes? Are there other examples of prominent linked figures > bearing the > same name? What of Bernal D del C's note that a soldier (often in the > company of Marina) named Juan Perez de Arteaga was also called > "Malinche?"And finally, what if anything, might have been the > grammatical distinctions > made in speaking third-person about Malintzin (him), Malintzin > (her), and > Malintzin (the god??) > > Thanks, > > Dan --a longtime "lurker" on Nahuat-L, finally piping up > > > Dan Deneen > Strafford, Vermont > www.deneenstreet.com > From deneen at VALLEY.NET Thu Apr 29 22:17:53 2004 From: deneen at VALLEY.NET (Dan Deneen) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 18:17:53 -0400 Subject: Malintzin In-Reply-To: <27d822c056.2c05627d82@wiscmail.wisc.edu> Message-ID: Max, The problem, though, with Bernal Diaz's account is that is doesn't square with indigenous sources; Sahagun, Book 12, has the interpreter called Malintzin, while Cortes is referred to only as the Capitan or the Marques. In fact, it is only if we bank on Bernal Diaz that there is a "problem" of the captain and his interpreter both being called "Malinche/Malintzin"---someone please tell me if I'm wrong, but isn't BD the only source for the shared name story? Who else calls Cortes "Malinche?" My earlier posting to the group is partly an effort to find some reason to hold on to Diaz's intriguing detail; but absent some evidence for a tradition of shared names in analogous circumstances, it seems that the best conclusion might just be that the old soldier was confused on this point. He is so emphatic on the point it is hard to imagine it being invented of whole cloth, but is there anything else to support him? I shall look forward to reading your book on Malinche in mesoamerican dance. Thanks for the tip. -Dan -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU]On Behalf Of MAX R HARRIS Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 3:00 PM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Malintzin Dan, I know of no other sources that call both Cortes and his mistress/translator Malinche. The most persuasive explanation I've come across for the Nahua giving Cortes his female translator's name (assuming Bernal Diaz's account is correct on this detail) is that it was she who spoke for him, i.e. she is his voice, so he bears her name. (Unfortunately, I can't remember the source of this explanation: I suspect it was offered verbally at a conference rather than published anywhere!) Whether it diminished Cortes in the Nahua mind to give him a female interpreter's name, I don't know. I have, however, made several lengthy attempts to understand the role of Malinche in Mesoamerican danzas. The Malinche of the dances is emphatically not Cortes's translator, but generally either partners Moctezuma (in conquest dances) or is independent. The notion of Malinche as an ixiptla in this context is not a bad one. Her name in the dances may derive, like the mountain in the state of Tlaxcala now known as La Malinche, from a pre-Christian deity, Matlalcueye. But it may also derive from the imported Spanish "deity," the Virgin Mary. "Blessed Maria" becomes in Nahuatl "Malintzin," or, in hispancized Nahautl, "Malinche." That the name Maringuilla, or "little Mary," is often substituted for Malinche in the danzas, perhaps suggests that the link with the Virgin is more likely. But the two derivations are not mutually exclusive. If you're interested, you can read my developing thoughts on the Malinche of the dances at greater length in: "Moctezuma's Daughter: The Role of La Malinche in Mesoamerican Dance," The Journal of American Folklore 109 (1996):149-177 "Sweet Moll and Malinche: Maid Marian Goes to Mexico," in Playing Robin Hood: The Legend as Performance in Five Centuries, ed. Lois Potter (Associated University Presses, 1998), 101-110. Aztecs, Moors, and Christians: Festivals of Reconquest in Mexico and Spain (University of Texas Press, 2000), 237-250 Carnival and Other Christian Festivals: Folk Theology and Folk Performance (University of Texas Press, 2003), 50-64. The latter pieces modify and (I hope) correct the earlier in ceryain details. As for the historical Malinche, my own best guess at this point would be that her baptismal name was Maria, to which the Nahua honorific -tzin was added in recognition of her stature as Cortes's mouthpiece, so becoming, in Nahuatl, "Malintzin," and, in hispanicized Nahuatl, "Malinche." In other words, her name slid from Maria to Malinche just like the Virgin Mary after whom she was renamed at her baptism. Best wishes, Max Max Harris, Executive Director Wisconsin Humanities Council 222 South Bedford Street, Suite F Madison, WI 53703 Tel: 608/262-0706 Fax: 608/263-7970 ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Deneen Date: Thursday, April 29, 2004 1:40 pm Subject: Malintzin > Might I get some of you to weigh in on a question about the name > Malintzin/Malinche? The Spanish chroniclers tell us that Cort?s > and his > interpreter were both called ?Malinche? (?Malintzin.?) Frances > Kartunnenargued (1997) that both of them may have been seen as > ixiptla for a > previously obscure, or unknown, divine entity itself called, > ?Malintzin?.This has been the most interesting and persuasive of > the explanations I?ve > come across, and I?d love to know if Ms. Kartunnen has had an > opportunityto further develop the argument, or if any of this > distinguished company > might have thoughts on the naming. And, more specifically: are there > indigenous sources which apply the name, ?Malintzin? to both > Marina and > Cortes? Are there other examples of prominent linked figures > bearing the > same name? What of Bernal D del C's note that a soldier (often in the > company of Marina) named Juan Perez de Arteaga was also called > "Malinche?"And finally, what if anything, might have been the > grammatical distinctions > made in speaking third-person about Malintzin (him), Malintzin > (her), and > Malintzin (the god??) > > Thanks, > > Dan --a longtime "lurker" on Nahuat-L, finally piping up > > > Dan Deneen > Strafford, Vermont > www.deneenstreet.com > From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Fri Apr 30 17:25:20 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 12:25:20 -0500 Subject: Tecuhtli, teuctli, tekwtli In-Reply-To: <20040429164916.USEY559.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> Message-ID: As for teuctli being more misrepresenting than tecuhtli, I hold the opposite. At least as I pronounce the word, what is going on is that a subordinate consonant is being inserted within a longer vocal dipthong, something like tewcwtli or it could be pronounced with the consonant displacing the dipthong like tektli. I have a larger agenda against tecuhtli, however, because I believe that the word is a nominalization of teu/o, and, in that light, I'm compiling references to divinities, sorcerers etc. to see if that hypothesis has substance. best, Mark Morris Oh, as a non-sequituir on pronunciations, I was tickled a couple years ago to see that some neighbors over the way had "Clacoyos" for sale along with quesadillas and memelitas. What was interesting about that was that it accurately represented one half of the way people, particularly women, pronounce "tl" in that region, with the tongue sort of hitting the palate lightly and then moving down not to produce a well-defined "tl" but more of an ambiguous clicking-type of consonant that has elements of both "tl" and "kl." Finally on ephemera: Mexican Spanish machinquepa is Nahuatl motzinquepa Does anyone know the source of Huarache? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.