From cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Aug 4 22:38:35 2004 From: cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET (Roland Trevino) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:38:35 -0700 Subject: Aztec Cardinal Directions Message-ID: Hello all, i am wondering something about the Aztec directions: I have seen them written like this: 1) Tlalocan -- EAST 2) Cihuatlampa -- WEST 3) Mictlampa -- NORTH 4) Huitzlampa -- SOUTH However, i have heard them orally like this (from danzantes): 1) Tlapcopa OR Tlapcopan 2) Cihuatlalpan OR Tonataliaquian 3) Mictlalpan OR Teotolampa (Teotlalpan) 4) Huitzlalpan OR Amilpampa I HAVE 2 QUESTIONS: *** What exactly do these words mean -- and why the variant pronunciations? *** Where can i find out more about these directions and the names of the 13 Aztec heavens and 9 infraworlds? I am keenly interested in this subject and any leads / info would be greatly appreciated :) ~Roland Trevino -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM Thu Aug 5 17:12:13 2004 From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 10:12:13 -0700 Subject: Aztec Cardinal Directions In-Reply-To: <002601c47a73$c7e703d0$e3e1b73f@rolandcrmw4dhe> Message-ID: In the _C�dice Borgia_ (Seler, E., ed., Fondo de Cultura Econ�mica, Mexico, df, 1963), it talks about the five regions, and the deities. It's on page49-52. The explanation by Seler, and translated into Spanish by M. Frenk, accompanies the codex in two other volumes. You can also read what he says about the �rboles C�smicos. Sahag�n must have a lot on what you're looking for, but I don't know exactly on what page. -Richard Hello all, i am wondering something about the Aztec directions: I have seen them written like this: 1) Tlalocan -- EAST 2) Cihuatlampa -- WEST 3) Mictlampa -- NORTH 4) Huitzlampa -- SOUTH However, i have heard them orally like this (from danzantes): 1) Tlapcopa OR Tlapcopan 2) Cihuatlalpan OR Tonataliaquian 3) Mictlalpan OR Teotolampa (Teotlalpan) 4) Huitzlalpan OR Amilpampa I HAVE 2 QUESTIONS: *** What exactly do these words mean -- and why the variant pronunciations? *** Where can i find out more about these directions and the names of the 13 Aztec heavens and 9 infraworlds? I am keenly interested in this subject and any leads / info would be greatly appreciated :) ~Roland Trevino --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM Thu Aug 5 18:01:49 2004 From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 11:01:49 -0700 Subject: huel(i) In-Reply-To: <002601c47a73$c7e703d0$e3e1b73f@rolandcrmw4dhe> Message-ID: In Karttunen's dictionary huel(i) means "to be able to". Three entries above, Huel, has "bien" (good) as one of its definitions. In Sim�on's dictionary, ueli means "con posibilidad", but there's another ueli. This other ueli is four entries earlier, under "uel o ueli". This other ueli means bien. My question: is Karttunen�s huel (bien), the same thing as Sim�on's hueli (which also means bien). Is that extra letter I, that makes Karttunen's word different from Sim�on's, significant? Thank you, Rich --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Fri Aug 6 02:18:09 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 21:18:09 -0500 Subject: xoxopehualiztli Message-ID: Listerohtzitzin, I have been back in Bloomington (the one in Indiana) for only a few days, which the calendar says is actually a week. I find that in my seven week absence while driving to Mexico (DF, Huauchinango, Naupan, Tenango, Hueyapan (Mor.), Tepoztlan, and Taxco), my e-mail queue has grown unbelievably full. I have read many of messages from Nahuat-l, some of them too quickly, but I *will* review them (for the zumo that can be extracted). One topic that I found of interest and retrieved the notes below on is "xoxopehualiztli". Below are all the cases of "...xoxope(hu /hu)..." that occur in the Florentine Codex. 1. One of the early messages caught my eye because I assumed that (xo)xopehua... was a transitive verb and the quoted form gave no indication of that. As it turned out, all of the five forms which occurred in the FC did have objects. 2. I assume that the basic semantics of (xo)xopehua are straightforward: xo(tl) foot/leg [reduplicated] pehua start, shove, push xopehua seems to be fused to the extent that when one shoves something away with a hand, it is possible to say "nic-maxopehua" (I hand foot-push it). Items #1 and #2 below are possibly only literal uses of "xopehua", while items #3-#5 seem to indicate that it has taken on a "natural" metaphorical meaning involving 'rejection, rejection'. Just my quickie "parecer". Saludos, Joe conxoxopeuhque** 1. caanque, hueca *conxoxopeuhque*, quihualchichitotzque, hueca ica ommamayauhque in metl:. they took it up; they kicked each [plant] away; they made them burst out [of their places]; far did they cast the magueys. (b.12 f.3 p.35). tinexoxopehuililo** 2. anca ye hueli in iz *tinexoxopehuililo*, anca ye huel in teuhtli, tlazolli ic timilacatzotiaz:. accordingly, is it possible that thou wilt be ejected from the very filth, the refuse, in which thou wilt envelop thyself? (b.6 f.6 p.74). tlaxoxopehualiztli** 3. *tlaxoxopehualiztli*, huehuetzcayotl, chocholocayotl nimitzonnochihuililiz in mopetlapan, in mocpalpan in momahuizyocan.. I shall bring about for thee the ruination of government, the laughable, the folly on thy reed mat, on thy reed seat, on thy place of honor. (b.6 f.4 p.45). 4. nehuatl *tlaxoxopehualiztli*, chocholocayotl, noconnochihuililiz in amauh, in amotepeuh:. I shall bring about ruin, folly to your city. (b.6 f.6 p.67). 5. auh in *tlaxoxopehualiztli* nicchihuilia in tloque nahuaque in ipetlapan, in icpalpan, in imahuizzocan.. and I govern poorly on the reed mat, the reed seat, the place of honor of the lord of the near, of the nigh. (b.6 f.7 p.87). From ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX Fri Aug 6 03:24:33 2004 From: ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rita=20Monta=FFfffff1o?=) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 22:24:33 -0500 Subject: Aztec Cardinal Directions In-Reply-To: <20040805171213.92631.qmail@web90006.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hola: En la Historia General de las Cosas de Nueva España, Libros 2 al 4, puedes encontrar lo relativo al calendario, los dioses, los niveles, las fiestas. Está editado por Editorial Porrúa. Continuaré revisando fuentes por si encuentro más información, ojalá y esta te sea útil. Saludos. Rita rick dosan wrote: In the _Códice Borgia_ (Seler, E., ed., Fondo de Cultura Económica, Mexico, df, 1963), it talks about the five regions, and the deities. It's on page49-52. The explanation by Seler, and translated into Spanish by M. Frenk, accompanies the codex in two other volumes. You can also read what he says about the Árboles Cósmicos. Sahagún must have a lot on what you're looking for, but I don't know exactly on what page. -Richard Hello all, i am wondering something about the Aztec directions: I have seen them written like this: 1) Tlalocan -- EAST 2) Cihuatlampa -- WEST 3) Mictlampa -- NORTH 4) Huitzlampa -- SOUTH However, i have heard them orally like this (from danzantes): 1) Tlapcopa OR Tlapcopan 2) Cihuatlalpan OR Tonataliaquian 3) Mictlalpan OR Teotolampa (Teotlalpan) 4) Huitzlalpan OR Amilpampa I HAVE 2 QUESTIONS: *** What exactly do these words mean -- and why the variant pronunciations? *** Where can i find out more about these directions and the names of the 13 Aztec heavens and 9 infraworlds? I am keenly interested in this subject and any leads / info would be greatly appreciated :) ~Roland Trevino --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Net: La mejor conexión a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Fri Aug 6 04:44:57 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 23:44:57 -0500 Subject: occe xoxopehualizli Message-ID: I'm sorry to overlap this message with the one that I sent earlier this evening, but I had some rearranged thoughts and thought I'd pass them on. Items #1 and #2 are examples of the combination of "ma(itl)" and "xo(tl)", indicating the fusion of "xo-pehua" -- and the semantic opacity of "xo-". #4 is doubly convincing with regard to the "non-value" of "xo-", the form "oconicxixopeuh" seeming to claim that "icxi(tl)" (i.e, foot) is a necessary modifier to express the notion of 'foot'. #1 is of some semantic interest, with the semantics leaning towards 'rejection' and 'disdain'. #3 is of further semantic interest, with the embedded "tlahtol-", indicating the semantic field of refutation in argument. ************* But what really caught my interest was the co-occurrence of "xope..." and "cholo...", so I checked all of the FC and found #13- #15. #14 and #15 tlaxoxopehualiztli and chocholocayotl seem to fit the image of a "difrasismo" -- they generalize two specific meanings into one new more general meaning. #13, on the other hand, itlah oncholo ... ... itlah oconicxixopeuh seems to contain the seed of a difrasismo, with the elements widely spaced, meant to be only non-contiguous elements of appositional value. For an extended and enlightening treatment of "difrasismos", see Mercedes Montes de Oca's thesis _Los Difrasismos en el Nahuatl del Siglo XVI_ (UNAM 2000). Any apparent lack of enlightenment that appears in my remarks is entirely my own fault and should not reflect negatively on the author. Semi-redundantly, Joe * * * * * * * * * ticmaxopeuh** 1. in quenamicatzintli in at huel ihicac, in at nozo zan quenamicatzintli: ma *ticmaxopeuh*, ma yehuatl, ca itlaihualtzin in toteucyo:. howsoever they may be -- perhaps truly upstanding or perhaps only in any manner -- do not reject the one sent of our lord. (b.6 f.8 p.98). tlamaxopehuaz** 2. cenca huellachielo, huel neixpetzolo, huel neixpepetzalo, in azaca tlamimiloz, in azaca tlaoliniz, in azaca tlamapetoniz, in azaca *tlamaxopehuaz*.. very well were they watched; closely were they watched; closely were they continually watched in case perchance someone might roll something, in case he might move something, in case perchance someone might displace something with his hand, in case perchance someone might knock something with his hand. (b.2 f.3 p.80). motlatolxopeuhtoque** 3. moqueciczatoque, mozoquimotlatoque, motlatzohuilitoque, mocuahcuatoque, mixcuahcuatoque, *motlatolxopeuhtoque*, moyehuatocatoque,. they sat jostling and besmearing one another, disputing and quarreling among themselves, contending, refuting, and bragging. (b.4 f.5 p.47). oconicxixopeuh** 4. in otlatlaco, in calmecac itlah oncholo: intlanel zan aca onmotepotlami, itlah *oconicxixopeuh*, oc huel ic conacique,. when a fault had been committed in the priests' house, or some error had been done--even though someone had only stumbled, or tripped over something, at once, for this, they laid hold of him. (b.7 f.2 p.17). conxoxopeuhque** 5. caanque, hueca *conxoxopeuhque*, quihualchichitotzque, hueca ica ommamayauhque in metl:. they took it up; they kicked each [plant] away; they made them burst out [of their places]; far did they cast the magueys. (b.12 f.3 p.35). ticxopeuh** 6. intla iuh motlamachitiz toteucyo, intla aca, iuh quimitalhuiz, motech tlatoz: ma tictlatlaz, ma *ticxopeuh* in ihiyotzin toteucyo:. if it so please our lord, if someone so will demand, will speak for thee, thou art not to reject, to kick away the spirit of our lord. (b.6 f.8 p.97). timotlaxopehuallalpiliz** 7. inic timotlalpiliz: amo *timotlaxopehuallalpiliz*, amo no tictitichoz in monetlalpilil:. "thus art thou to tie on thy cape: do not tie it on so that thou goest tripping over it; neither art thou to shorten thy cape. (b.6 f.10 p.123). tinexoxopehuililo** 8. anca ye hueli in iz *tinexoxopehuililo*, anca ye huel in teuhtli, tlazolli ic timilacatzotiaz:. accordingly, is it possible that thou wilt be ejected from the very filth, the refuse, in which thou wilt envelop thyself? (b.6 f.6 p.74). tlatlaxopehua** 9. tlatlahuilana, *tlatlaxopehua*, tlaquequelotinemi, tlaxocotinemi, iciacacpa tlaquixtitinemi, acollapetonitinemi, xoxotlamati, xoxocuappitznehnemi, quihuihuilana in icxi, monenecuilotiuh in nenemi:. they drag it; they trip over it; they go about mocking, they go rudely, they go drawing it to the arm pit, shoulder bared; they go in conceit, graceless, dragging their feet, twisting and turning as they travel. (b.6 f.10 p.123). tlaxoxopehualiztli** 10. *tlaxoxopehualiztli*, huehuetzcayotl, chocholocayotl nimitzonnochihuililiz in mopetlapan, in mocpalpan in momahuizyocan.. I shall bring about for thee the ruination of government, the laughable, the folly on thy reed mat, on thy reed seat, on thy place of honor. (b.6 f.4 p.45). 11. nehuatl *tlaxoxopehualiztli*, chocholocayotl, noconnochihuililiz in amauh, in amotepeuh:. I shall bring about ruin, folly to your city. (b.6 f.6 p.67). 12. auh in *tlaxoxopehualiztli* nicchihuilia in tloque nahuaque in ipetlapan, in icpalpan, in imahuizzocan.. and I govern poorly on the reed mat, the reed seat, the place of honor of the lord of the near, of the nigh. (b.6 f.7 p.87). ****************** oconicxixopeuh** 13. in otlatlaco, in calmecac itlah oncholo: intlanel zan aca onmotepotlami, itlah *oconicxixopeuh*, oc huel ic conacique,. when a fault had been committed in the priests' house, or some error had been done -- even though someone had only stumbled, or tripped over something, at once, for this, they laid hold of him. (b.7 f.2 p.17). tlaxoxopehualiztli** 14. *tlaxoxopehualiztli*, huehuetzcayotl, chocholocayotl nimitzonnochihuililiz in mopetlapan, in mocpalpan in momahuizyocan.. I shall bring about for thee the ruination of government, the laughable, the folly on thy reed mat, on thy reed seat, on thy place of honor. (b.6 f.4 p.45). 15. nehuatl *tlaxoxopehualiztli*, chocholocayotl, noconnochihuililiz in amauh, in amotepeuh:. I shall bring about ruin, folly to your city. (b.6 f.6 p.67). From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Sun Aug 8 18:55:25 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 13:55:25 -0500 Subject: (te)cuacuilli Message-ID: Listeros, My limitations in knowledge of culture and history frequently act as roadblocks in morphological analysis. The current one is "cuacuilli". I know that it refers to older priests and I have certainly entertained the that it has the morphological composition "cua:itl-cui-l-tli" and might derive from a particular role that this group of priests had -- that of receiving (catching and disposing of) the head of a decapitated sacrificial victim. Is this just fanciful speculation or is there something to it? Further, it frequently occurs in combination with "te-" and seems to refer to idols. Is there any reason not to assume that the "te-" is the morpheme "tetl"? ...and the use of "tozcatecuacuilli" to refer to the uvula (reminding me of "texolotl" in reference to 'pestle')...? Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated, Joe p.s. Here are the relevant occurrences from the Florentine Codex: cihuacuacuilli** 1. *cihuacuacuilli*.. ciuaquacuilli (b.2 f.13 p.211). 2. in *cihuacuacuilli* itequiuh catca, in ixquich huentli, in oncan monequia, atenchicalcatl, in xochitl, in iyetl inic quitlamaniliaya toci huel ixquich in ontlamanaya in cihua in ihcuac nahualoya. the function of the ciuaquacuilli was [to assemble] all the offerings which were required there at the temple of atenchicalcan [toci] -- the flowers, the tobacco, which she laid before toci; verily, all the things which the women offered when the handholding dance was danced. (b.2 f.13 p.211). 3. yehuatl mochi itequiuh catca, in *cihuacuacuilli*.. all this was the function of the ciuaquacuilli. (b.2 f.13 p.211). 4. *cihuacuacuilli* iztac cihuatl.. ciuaquacuilli iztac ciuatl (b.2 f.13 p.211). 5. in *cihuacuacuilli* iztac cihuatl zan no ompa tlapiaya, ompa tlamocuitlahuiaya in atenchicalcan ihuan ipan tlatohuaya in tlachpanaliztli in tletlaliliztli,. the ciuaquacuilli iztac ciuatl also kept watch there, took care there at [the temple of] atenchicalcan and issued directions for the sweeping, the laying of fires. (b.2 f.13 p.211). 6. ihuan in aquin ompa monetoltiaya, yehuatl conilhuiaya in *cihuacuacuilli* iztac cihuatl,. and any who made vows there spoke to the ciuaquacuilli iztac ciuatl. (b.2 f.13 p.211). cuacuacuilti** 7. quintozahuiya tlamacazque: ihuan in *cuacuacuilti*, yehuan in ye huehuetque tlamacazque.. the offering priests and the quaquacuiltin, those who were old offering priests, made them keep the vigil. (b.2 f.1 p.44). 8. auh ye inmac in huehuentzitzin *cuacuacuilti*, calpolhuehuetque:. and they were in the hands of the old men, the quaquacuilti, the old men of the calpulli. (b.2 f.1 p.48). 9. auh in ye iuhqui, niman ic quicuania in *cuacuacuilti*:. and when this was done, then the old priests took away [the offerings]. (b.2 f.3 p.81). 10. nohuiyan quiza in izquican teteopan, quiyacantinemi in *cuacuacuilti*.. he went everywhere, to all the temples; the old priests went ahead of him. (b.2 f.4 p.83). 11. tlapalehuia in *cuacuacuilti*, no yehuantin tlapalehuia, in tetlepantlazque.. the old priests helped; also those who cast [victims] into the fire helped. (b.2 f.6 p.112). 12. niman ic conantihuetzi, conhuilantihuetzi, in *cuacuacuilti*, quihualteca techcac,. then the old priests quickly seized him; they quickly drew him forth. they stretched him out on the offering stone. (b.2 f.6 p.115). 13. auh inic concahua ichan: caantihui, quitzitzitzquitihui iiacolpan; in *cuacuacuilti*: omentin,. and thus they left him at his home; two old priests went grasping him; they went holding him by the arm. (b.2 f.6 p.117). 14. quincuicatlaxilitihui in *cuacuacuilti*,. the old priests went intoning a song for them. (b.2 f.7 p.122). 15. quinnotza quincentlalia in tlamacazque, ihuan quinnotza in *cuacuacuilti*, ihuan quincentlalia in nanti, in tati, in huehuetque,. he summoned, he assembled the priests, and he summoned the headtaking priests, and he assembled the [well]-mothered, the [well]-sired ones, the old men. (b.3 f.4 p.61). cuacuacuiltin** 16. notzalo in tlamacazque huehuetque, in intoca *cuacuacuiltin*: iehuantin caquitilo: auh yehuantin quicaquitia in tlamacazqui, in mitoa quetzalcoatl: ipampa amo campa tepan calaqui, ca mahuizyo, ca tlamauhtia iuhquinma teomacho:. the old priests, whose names were quaquacuiltin, were summoned; these were informed, and they informed the priest called quetzalcoatl; because nowhere did [the latter] enter [any]one's house, for he was venerated, feared, considered as a god; (b.6 f.17 p.210). cuacuilli** 17. auh ce tlacatl *cuacuilli* teyacantiuh,. and leading them went a man, an old priest. (b.2 f.3 p.81). 18. ihuan ce *cuacuilli* conquechpanoa, ayauhchicahuaztli:. and an old priest bore upon his shoulders the mist rattle board. (b.2 f.4 p.85). 19. auh in *cuacuilli*, in ihuehueyo, itoca: teohua, mocuitlacueptinemi, in conitta,. and the old priest, [the god's] old man, named teohua [the god's keeper], kept going back to look upon [the cornmeal on the mat]. (b.2 f.7 p.128). 20. chalchiuhtli icue acatonal *cuacuilli*.. the old priest of chalchiuhtli icue acatonal (b.2 f.13 p.214). 21. in chalchiuhtli icue acatonal *cuacuilli*, ipan tlatoaya in huentli, quitzatziliaya in ixquich itech monequia, in yehuatl chalchiuhtli icue in ipan miquia, in ococalcueitl, in acueitl: ihuan in ixquich in amatl, in copalli, in olli, ihuan in oc cequi.. the old priest of chalchiuhtli icue acatonal issued directions about the offerings [and] made public announcements about all that [the impersonator of] chalchiuhtli icue required at the time that she died: the pine nut skirt, the water skirt, and all the paper, the incense, and so forth. (b.2 f.13 p.214). 22. ayatle onyetiuh tletl quin yehuatl quimatia in yehuatl *cuacuilli* in campa monequiz in tlemaitl.. not yet did fire go [in the ladles]; later the old priest decided where the incense ladles would be required. (b.2 f.14 p.245). 23. auh in yehuatl, in *cuacuilli* niman quihualnahuatia, in nantli inic amo quixiccahuaz in iconeuh, ihuan inic amo tlaxiccahuaz, inic quicahuatiuh in popotl, ihuan in copalli, anozo tlaxipehualli, in cecempoaltica in ompa calpolco.. and this old priest commanded that the mother not abandon her child because of lack of regard, and that [the child] not leave off, because of lack of regard, going to leave the brooms and the incense, or wood shavings, every twenty days there at the calpulco. (b.2 f.14 p.245). epcoacuacuilli** 24. *epcoacuacuilli* tepictoton.. epcoaquacuilli tepictoton (b.2 f.13 p.212). 25. in *epcoacuacuilli* tepictoton ipan tlatohuaya in cuicatl,. the epcoaquacuilli tepictoton directed the songs. (b.2 f.13 p.212). 26. huel yehuatl quitzontequia in *epcoacuacuilli* tepictoton.. verily, this one, the epcoaquacuilli tepictoton, passed judgment on [the songs]. (b.2 f.13 p.212). epcoacuacuiltzin** 27. *epcoacuacuiltzin*.. epcoaquacuiltzin (b.2 f.13 p.207). 28. in *epcoacuacuiltzin*, izca in itequiuh catca:. the epcoaquacuiltzin: behold what were his duties. (b.2 f.13 p.207). nocuacuillo** 29. i *nocuacuillo*. my priesthood (b.2 f.14 p.224). 30. *nocuacuillo* atl iyollo, nechhualhuicatique. my priests have brought me the heart of water (b.2 f.14 p.245). 31. *nocuacuillo*, atl iyollo nechhualhuicatique. my priests have brought me the heart of water (b.2 f.14 p.245). teccizcuacuilli** 32. auh in ye iuhqui, in oconmaqui *teccizcuacuilli*: mec hualmoquetztihuetzi tlatempan:. and when this was done, when the teccizquacuilli had [donned] her skin, then she quickly placed herself here on the edge [of the pyramid]. (b.2 f.7 p.120). tecizcuacuili** 33. itoca *tecizcuacuili*, cenca chicahuac, chichicactic, ihuan cenca cuauhtic.. he was called teccizquacuilli -- a very strong [man], very powerful, and very tall. (b.2 f.7 p.120). tecuacuilti** 34. ihuan in ixquich pieloya techachan, in neteotiloya *tecuacuilti*, in ahzo cuahuitl, anozo tetl tlaxintli, mochi atlan onmotepehuaya:. and the statues, hewn in either wood or stone, kept in each man's home and regarded as gods, were all cast into the water. (b.7 f.2 p.25). tepecuacuilca** 35. in cohuixca, ihuan intoca tlappaneca: in za ce cohuixcatl. inique i, cohuixca: yehuantin in *tepecuacuilca*, in tlachmalacac tlaca, in chilapaneca,. the couixca, whose name [is] also tlappaneca -- the singular [is] couixcatl: these are the people of tepequacuilco, tlachmalacac, [and the province of] chilapan. (b.10 f.11 p.187). tepecuacuilcatl** 36. auh in yehuatl tlatoani: niman quinnonotza in ixquichtin calpixque, petlacalcatl, aztacalcatl: cuauhnahuac calpixqui, huaxtepec calpixqui, cuetlaxtecatl: tochpanecatl: tziuhcoacatl, *tepecuacuilcatl*, huappanecatl, coaixtlahuacatl, tlappanecatl, tlachcotecatl, matlatzincatl, ocuiltecatl, xilotepecatl, atotonilcatl, axocopanecatl, itzcuincuitlapilcatl, atocpanecatl, ayotzintepecatl,. the ruler then consulted with all the majordomos -- the men of the petlacalco and of the aztacalco, the majordomos of quauhnauac and uaxtepec, and [those] of cuetlaxtlan, tochpan, tziuhcoac, tepequacuilco, uapan, coatlixtlauacan, tlappan, tlachco, matlatzinco, ocuillan, xilotepec, atotonilco, axocopan, itzcuincuitlapilco, atocpan, and ayotzintepec. (b.8 f.3 p.51). tlazolcuacuilli** 37. *tlazolcuacuilli*.. tla�olquacuilli (b.2 f.13 p.211). 38. in *tlazolcuacuilli*, itequiuh catca, oncan tlapiaya, oncan tlamocuitlahuiaya in mecatlan,. the function of the tla�olquacuilli was that he kept watch there, he took care there in [the temple of] mecatlan. (b.2 f.13 p.211). totozcatecuacuil** 39. *totozcatecuacuil*. our uvula (b.10 f.6 p.108a). From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Aug 9 18:28:35 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 13:28:35 -0500 Subject: NSF funding Message-ID: Documenting Endangered Languages (DEL) An Interagency Partnership Synopsis of Program: This multi-year funding partnership between the National Science Foundation (NSF) and the National Endowment for the Humanities (NEH) supports projects to develop and advance knowledge concerning endangered human languages. Made urgent by the imminent death of an estimated half of the 6000-7000 currently used human languages, this effort aims also to exploit advances in information technology. Funding will support fieldwork and other activities relevant to recording, documenting, and archiving endangered languages, including the preparation of lexicons, grammars, text samples, and databases. Funding will be available in the form of one- to three-year project grants as well as fellowships for up to twelve months. At least half the available funding will be awarded to projects involving fieldwork. The Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of Natural History (NMNH) will participate in the partnership as a research host, a non-funding role. Cognizant Program Officer(s): * Joan Maling, Linguistics Program Director, Directorate for Social, Behavioral & Economic Sciences, Division of Behavioral and Cognitive Sciences, 995 N, telephone: (703) 292-8046, fax: (703) 292-9068, email: jmaling at nsf.gov * James Herbert, Senior NSF/NEH Advisor, Directorate for Social, Behavioral & Economic Sciences, 805 N, telephone: (703) 292-8276, fax: (703) 292-9179, email: jherbert at nsf.gov * Anna M. Kerttula, Arctic Social Sciences Program Director, Office of the Director, Office of Polar Programs, 755 S, telephone: (703) 292-7432, fax: (703) 292-9082, email: akerttul at nsf.gov * Helen Aguera, Acting Deputy Director, Preservation & Access, National Endowment for the Humanities, 1100 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC, 20506, USA, telephone: (202) 606-8573, email: haguera at neh.gov Applicable Catalog of Federal Domestic Assistance (CFDA) Number(s): * 47.075 --- Social, Behavioral and Economic Sciences John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Tue Aug 10 02:04:25 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:04:25 -0500 Subject: (te)cuacuilli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Joe and List, That is a very interesting puzzle. You may note that the only other context where your Florentine glossary registers the two joined syllables CUACUILLI is for the epiglottis, alluding to swallowing. One prominent example of these priests is the TECCIZCUACUILLI who dons the skin of Toci's ixiptla after her decapitation. From there, I have related as a reference to the consumptive dimension of the feminine earth deity. I would counter-offer then that TECUACUILLI might be descriptive of these priests' role in offering people for divine consumption. Thank you very much for clarifying xopehua; is there anything that comes to mind for topehua? best, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From afinn23 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 12 10:11:47 2004 From: afinn23 at HOTMAIL.COM (Alex Finn) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:11:47 +0000 Subject: sacrification centre Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From indus56 at TELUSPLANET.NET Thu Aug 12 14:08:43 2004 From: indus56 at TELUSPLANET.NET (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:08:43 -0600 Subject: Images of Tenochtitlan -- apologies for any cross-posts Message-ID: Dear NAHUATL-L members, I am preparing an informal presentation of images for the launch of a novel I have written, whose central character is the 17th-century Mexican polymath Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz. In a reading I would like to do on that evening, I have Sor Juana writing about Quetzalcoatl, Ehecatl and about the cyclindrical temple at Tenochtitlan. Would anyone happen to have an image you might allow me to use -- be it a photograph, or an illustration -- of Tenochtitlan that includes that particular temple? By a photograph, of course, I have in mind a photograph of something like the maquette of Tenochtitlan at the Museo de Antropologia in Mexico City. Ideally, it would be an image of which you are the rights holder. However, if the image is particularly good there is still time for me to request permission from the rights holder directly. Gratefully, Paul Anderson -- ***************************************************** Paul Anderson, Hunger's Brides. Random House of Canada (2004). Based on the life of Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz in 17th-century Mexico. Scholarly comment (and chidings) on manuscript excerpts (on-line) are gratefully welcomed at: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/indus56/brides_1/ To pre-order: http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/books/0679310886/reviews/ref=cm_rev_more_2/701-6086858-1493150 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Thu Aug 12 18:12:04 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:12:04 +0100 Subject: Images of Tenochtitlan -- apologies for any cross-posts In-Reply-To: <411B79EB.2090007@telusplanet.net> Message-ID: --- Paul Anderson wrote: > Dear NAHUATL-L members, > I am preparing an informal presentation of images for the launch of a > novel I have written, whose central character is the 17th-century > Mexican polymath Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz. In a reading I would like > to do on that evening, I have Sor Juana writing about Quetzalcoatl, > Ehecatl and about the cylindrical temple at Tenochtitlan. > Would anyone happen to have an image you might allow me to use -- be > it a photograph, or an illustration -- of Tenochtitlan that includes > that particular temple? ... I am in a big forum called http://www.renderosity.com , which is about CGI art (= Computer Generated Imaging) (as in many modern sci-fi movies etc). Is there anyone in this group who might want to ask there if anyone has or can make CGI models of old Tenochtitlanian buildings and artefacts and gods etc? If so, could they be any use to make up pictures for the novel? From s.levack at BTINTERNET.COM Thu Aug 12 19:53:36 2004 From: s.levack at BTINTERNET.COM (SIMON LEVACK) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:53:36 +0100 Subject: Images of Tenochtitlan -- apologies for any cross-posts In-Reply-To: <20040812181204.30820.qmail@web86709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Apologies for reproducing the whole of both messages under reply but it's all relevant. I was just going to say that the most vivid computer-generated images of Tenochtitlan-Tlatelolco, including the Templo Mayor area and particularly the conical temple of Quetzalcoatl Ehecatl, that I've ever seen are actually in a French computer game called "Aztec: Malediction au Coeur de la Cite d'Or". It may be worth asking the publishers, Cryo Interactive, for permission to use screenshots. Good luck with the novel! Simon Levack Author of the Aztec Mysteries Please take a few moments to visit my website at www.simonlevack.com -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of ANTHONY APPLEYARD Sent: 12 August 2004 18:12 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Images of Tenochtitlan -- apologies for any cross-posts --- Paul Anderson wrote: > Dear NAHUATL-L members, > I am preparing an informal presentation of images for the launch of a > novel I have written, whose central character is the 17th-century > Mexican polymath Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz. In a reading I would like > to do on that evening, I have Sor Juana writing about Quetzalcoatl, > Ehecatl and about the cylindrical temple at Tenochtitlan. > Would anyone happen to have an image you might allow me to use -- be > it a photograph, or an illustration -- of Tenochtitlan that includes > that particular temple? ... I am in a big forum called http://www.renderosity.com , which is about CGI art (= Computer Generated Imaging) (as in many modern sci-fi movies etc). Is there anyone in this group who might want to ask there if anyone has or can make CGI models of old Tenochtitlanian buildings and artefacts and gods etc? If so, could they be any use to make up pictures for the novel? From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Mon Aug 16 22:42:53 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:42:53 +0100 Subject: Nahuatl on the web In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://www.kokone.com.mx/leer/leyendas/sirena/22.html I found this page. It seems to be bilingual Spanish and a modern Nahuatl dialect. From idiez at MAC.COM Fri Aug 20 16:20:20 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:20:20 -0500 Subject: netlatolpepechtiliztli Message-ID: Molina gives "netlatolpepechtiliztli" as "theme". Does anybody have any ideas about this? Would it come from "nictlahtolpehpechtia", "I provide it with a word-saddle", or would is come from the "pepech" which gives the idea of "to affix something"? John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From carlossn at UI.BOE.ES Tue Aug 24 10:23:23 2004 From: carlossn at UI.BOE.ES (Carlos Santamarina) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:23:23 +0200 Subject: milaacatontli Message-ID: Hello everybody: Can anybody help me? I can't find de origin of the word milaacatontli, that is used by Fernando Alvarado Tezozómoc (Crónica Mexicana 2001 cap.LXXXI: 349) as traduction of "serranillo" or little (despective) inhabitant of the mountains. The context is the assesination of Tzutzumatzin from Coyoacan (Tepanec tlatoani). Thank you all in any case. ----------------------------------- Hola a todos: Alvarado Tezozómoc, en su Crónica Mexicana (2001 cap.LXXXI: 349), llama a Tzutzumatzin, tlatoani de Coyoacan "serranillo (milaacatontli)". "Serranillo" quiere decir habitante de la sierra o de los montes, pero en náhuatl, excepto la terminación de diminutivo, no acierto a descomponer el término. Muchas gracias. Carlos Santamarina, Madrid. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Tue Aug 24 11:39:29 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:39:29 -0500 Subject: milaacatontli In-Reply-To: <412B171B.3070008@ui.boe.es> Message-ID: This actually looks like mil(li)-[a(tl)]-aca(tl)-ton-tli 'field'-('water')-'reed'-depreciative 'big' suffix-absolutive noun suffix If that is the correct parsing, the word suggests a plant name. "big field-(water)-reed" Michael On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Carlos Santamarina wrote: > Hello everybody: > > Can anybody help me? > > I can't find de origin of the word milaacatontli, that is used by > Fernando Alvarado Tezoz�moc (Cr�nica Mexicana 2001 cap.LXXXI: 349) as > traduction of "serranillo" or little (despective) inhabitant of the > mountains. The context is the assesination of Tzutzumatzin from Coyoacan > (Tepanec tlatoani). > > Thank you all in any case. > > ----------------------------------- > Hola a todos: > > Alvarado Tezoz�moc, en su Cr�nica Mexicana (2001 cap.LXXXI: 349), llama > a Tzutzumatzin, tlatoani de Coyoacan "serranillo (milaacatontli)". > "Serranillo" quiere decir habitante de la sierra o de los montes, pero > en n�huatl, excepto la terminaci�n de diminutivo, no acierto a > descomponer el t�rmino. > > Muchas gracias. > > Carlos Santamarina, Madrid. > "...and cicadas sing a rare and different tune..." R. Hunter From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Tue Aug 24 19:38:23 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:38:23 -0500 Subject: milaacatontli In-Reply-To: <412B171B.3070008@ui.boe.es> Message-ID: Joe has let me know that the root noun of "milaacatontli" is probably a misspelled milla:catl 'field hand'. Sounds right. BTW, milla:catl is milli + tla:catl 'field + 'person'. The t of tla:catl is assimilated. So, what you have Carlos is "big ol' field hand" in American English. Michael On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Carlos Santamarina wrote: > Hello everybody: > > Can anybody help me? > > I can't find de origin of the word milaacatontli, that is used by > Fernando Alvarado Tezoz�moc (Cr�nica Mexicana 2001 cap.LXXXI: 349) as > traduction of "serranillo" or little (despective) inhabitant of the > mountains. The context is the assesination of Tzutzumatzin from Coyoacan > (Tepanec tlatoani). > > Thank you all in any case. > > ----------------------------------- > Hola a todos: > > Alvarado Tezoz�moc, en su Cr�nica Mexicana (2001 cap.LXXXI: 349), llama > a Tzutzumatzin, tlatoani de Coyoacan "serranillo (milaacatontli)". > "Serranillo" quiere decir habitante de la sierra o de los montes, pero > en n�huatl, excepto la terminaci�n de diminutivo, no acierto a > descomponer el t�rmino. > > Muchas gracias. > > Carlos Santamarina, Madrid. > "...and cicadas sing a rare and different tune..." R. Hunter From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Wed Aug 25 15:27:10 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:27:10 -0500 Subject: milaacatontli Message-ID: From: Amapohuani at aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:38:48 EDT Subject: Re: milaacatontli To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Listeros: Sometimes transcriptions can be in error. If the translation was correct perhaps 'milecatontli' was the original intention. Ye ixquich. Barry From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Wed Aug 25 16:55:49 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:55:49 -0500 Subject: milaacatontli In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20040825102629.01fdbec0@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Barry, In fact, Molina lists 'milecatontli' "quin~onero que tiene parte en heredad" in his 1571 (n/s) dictionary. That caught me by surprise. Also: nomilecapo el que tiene heredad, o tierras junto alas mias On the 'millacatl' side, he has: * mi:lli tla:catl *** milla tlacatl. aldeano. 71m1-2. milla tlacatl. labrador o aldeano. 71m2-10. millacaicniuh =no. labrador como yo. 55m-12. millacatl. aldeano. 55m-00. millacatl. aldeano. 71m1-2. millacatl. labrador o aldeano. 71m2-10. millacatl. labrador rustico. 55m-12. millacatl. morador de campo. 55m-14. millacayotl. campesino. 55m-2. millatlacatl. labrador rustico. 55m-12. millatlacayotl. labran�a de tierra arte. 55m-12. nomillacapo. labrador como yo. 55m-12. tlacatl =milla. aldeano. 55m-00. All the best, Joe On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, John F. Schwaller wrote: > From: Amapohuani at aol.com > Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:38:48 EDT > > Sometimes transcriptions can be in error. If the translation was correct > perhaps 'milecatontli' was the original intention. > > Ye ixquich. > Barry > > > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Wed Aug 25 18:34:27 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:34:27 -0500 Subject: milaacatontli In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20040825102629.01fdbec0@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Barry, The only thing is, that double aa, it seems, would be an unlikely miswritten e. Anything's possible, quil, but an e seems unlikely. Poetry in motion, Michael On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, John F. Schwaller wrote: > From: Amapohuani at aol.com > Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:38:48 EDT > Subject: Re: milaacatontli > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > > Listeros: > > Sometimes transcriptions can be in error. If the translation was correct > perhaps 'milecatontli' was the original intention. > > Ye ixquich. > Barry > > > "...and cicadas sing a rare and different tune..." R. Hunter From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Wed Aug 25 23:42:27 2004 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:42:27 EDT Subject: milaacatontli Message-ID: Michael: I like the 'millacatontli' solution. It is just that - after years and years of seeing the incrediblly crative [to be kind and respectful] transformations of items in transcriptions when I have been able to compare them with the original manuscripts - I do not take anything for granted, doubles a's or anything else. Again, I like the 'millacatontli' possibility. Ye ixquich. Barry In a message dated 8/25/04 11:34:45 AM, mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU writes: > Barry, > The only thing is, that double aa, it seems, would be an unlikely > miswritten e. Anything's possible, quil, but an e seems unlikely. > Poetry in motion, > Michael > > On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, John F. Schwaller wrote: > > > From: Amapohuani at aol.com > > Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:38:48 EDT > > Subject: Re: milaacatontli > > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > > > > Listeros: > > > > Sometimes transcriptions can be in error. If the translation was correct > > perhaps 'milecatontli' was the original intention. > > > > Ye ixquich. > > Barry > > > > > > > > "...and cicadas sing > a rare and different tune..." > > R. Hunter > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM Thu Aug 26 15:05:53 2004 From: Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM (Irene Padilla) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:05:53 -0700 Subject: milaacatontli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: New to the list. Can someone tell me what "Ye ixquich." means? much appreciated. ~Irene Amapohuani at AOL.COM Sent by: Nahua language and culture discussion 08/25/04 04:42 PM Please respond to Nahua language and culture discussion To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU cc: Subject: Re: milaacatontli Michael: I like the 'millacatontli' solution. It is just that - after years and years of seeing the incrediblly crative [to be kind and respectful] transformations of items in transcriptions when I have been able to compare them with the original manuscripts - I do not take anything for granted, doubles a's or anything else. Again, I like the 'millacatontli' possibility. Ye ixquich. Barry In a message dated 8/25/04 11:34:45 AM, mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU writes: Barry, The only thing is, that double aa, it seems, would be an unlikely miswritten e. Anything's possible, quil, but an e seems unlikely. Poetry in motion, Michael On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, John F. Schwaller wrote: > From: Amapohuani at aol.com > Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:38:48 EDT > Subject: Re: milaacatontli > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > > Listeros: > > Sometimes transcriptions can be in error. If the translation was correct > perhaps 'milecatontli' was the original intention. > > Ye ixquich. > Barry > > > "...and cicadas sing a rare and different tune..." R. Hunter -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Thu Aug 26 16:35:44 2004 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:35:44 EDT Subject: milaacatontli Message-ID: Irene: I hope you find this list useful. I do not contribute much but the regular contributors like Michael are much to be admired for the many times they have offered explanations and examples for a host of questions. However, since I customarily use 'ye ixquich' I thought I should answer this one. If you stay with this list you will discover that people will offer various translations/interpretations depending on how they analyze the elements. One common translation is 'that is all.' One way to analyze the elements is to regard the 'ye' as functioning like an adverb of time meaning "already" and the 'ixquich' as a quantifier meaning "all [of a certain amount]." The pragmatic thrust is something along the lines of 'that is all I have to say" or 'enough already.' In texts of the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries you will often find 'ye ixquich' as indicating that a statement or speech is ending or has ended. Ye ixquich. Barry In a message dated 8/26/04 8:17:00 AM, Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM writes: > New to the list.  Can someone tell me what  "Ye ixquich." means? > much appreciated. > ~Irene   > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From no_doyohn at YAHOO.COM Thu Aug 26 19:48:16 2004 From: no_doyohn at YAHOO.COM (Stef) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:48:16 -0700 Subject: milaacatontli In-Reply-To: <1cd.29ae0262.2e5f6b60@aol.com> Message-ID: Hello to all, I�m also new to the list and I really like reading what people are posting here. My question is, which books an be recommended for learning Nahuatl? I have difficulties finding this kind of information. It would be kind if someone could help me. Ye ixquich, Stefanie Amapohuani at AOL.COM wrote: Irene: I hope you find this list useful. I do not contribute much but the regular contributors like Michael are much to be admired for the many times they have offered explanations and examples for a host of questions. However, since I customarily use 'ye ixquich' I thought I should answer this one. If you stay with this list you will discover that people will offer various translations/interpretations depending on how they analyze the elements. One common translation is 'that is all.' One way to analyze the elements is to regard the 'ye' as functioning like an adverb of time meaning "already" and the 'ixquich' as a quantifier meaning "all [of a certain amount]." The pragmatic thrust is something along the lines of 'that is all I have to say" or 'enough already.' In texts of the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries you will often find 'ye ixquich' as indicating that a statement or speech is ending or has ended. Ye ixquich. Barry In a message dated 8/26/04 8:17:00 AM, Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM writes: New to the list. Can someone tell me what "Ye ixquich." means? much appreciated. ~Irene --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Aug 26 20:27:49 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:27:49 -0500 Subject: milaacatontli In-Reply-To: <20040826194816.66741.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I would highly recommend as a beginner the Campbell-Karttunen grammar and workbook. Dr. Schwaller, on this list, can give you the details about getting copies. I've used these in my classes at I.U. and the students did very well. Michael On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Stef wrote: > Hello to all, > I�m also new to the list and I really like reading what people are posting here. > My question is, which books an be recommended for learning Nahuatl? I have difficulties finding this kind of information. It would be kind if someone could help me. > > Ye ixquich, > Stefanie > > Amapohuani at AOL.COM wrote: > Irene: > > I hope you find this list useful. I do not contribute much but the regular contributors like Michael are much to be admired for the many times they have offered explanations and examples for a host of questions. > > However, since I customarily use 'ye ixquich' I thought I should answer this one. If you stay with this list you will discover that people will offer various translations/interpretations depending on how they analyze the elements. One common translation is 'that is all.' One way to analyze the elements is to regard the 'ye' as functioning like an adverb of time meaning "already" and the 'ixquich' as a quantifier meaning "all [of a certain amount]." The pragmatic thrust is something along the lines of 'that is all I have to say" or 'enough already.' In texts of the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries you will often find 'ye ixquich' as indicating that a statement or speech is ending or has ended. > > Ye ixquich. > Barry > > In a message dated 8/26/04 8:17:00 AM, Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM writes: > > > New to the list. Can someone tell me what "Ye ixquich." means? > much appreciated. > ~Irene > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. "...and cicadas sing a rare and different tune..." R. Hunter From Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM Thu Aug 26 20:45:14 2004 From: Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM (Irene Padilla) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:45:14 -0700 Subject: milaacatontli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, I also would like to know how to get copies thank so much! ~Irene Michael Mccafferty Sent by: Nahua language and culture discussion 08/26/04 01:27 PM Please respond to Nahua language and culture discussion To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU cc: Subject: Re: milaacatontli I would highly recommend as a beginner the Campbell-Karttunen grammar and workbook. Dr. Schwaller, on this list, can give you the details about getting copies. I've used these in my classes at I.U. and the students did very well. Michael On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Stef wrote: > Hello to all, > I´m also new to the list and I really like reading what people are posting here. > My question is, which books an be recommended for learning Nahuatl? I have difficulties finding this kind of information. It would be kind if someone could help me. > > Ye ixquich, > Stefanie > > Amapohuani at AOL.COM wrote: > Irene: > > I hope you find this list useful. I do not contribute much but the regular contributors like Michael are much to be admired for the many times they have offered explanations and examples for a host of questions. > > However, since I customarily use 'ye ixquich' I thought I should answer this one. If you stay with this list you will discover that people will offer various translations/interpretations depending on how they analyze the elements. One common translation is 'that is all.' One way to analyze the elements is to regard the 'ye' as functioning like an adverb of time meaning "already" and the 'ixquich' as a quantifier meaning "all [of a certain amount]." The pragmatic thrust is something along the lines of 'that is all I have to say" or 'enough already.' In texts of the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries you will often find 'ye ixquich' as indicating that a statement or speech is ending or has ended. > > Ye ixquich. > Barry > > In a message dated 8/26/04 8:17:00 AM, Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM writes: > > > New to the list. Can someone tell me what "Ye ixquich." means? > much appreciated. > ~Irene > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. "...and cicadas sing a rare and different tune..." R. Hunter -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Aug 26 21:32:23 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:32:23 -0500 Subject: Books on Nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 03:27 PM 8/26/2004, you wrote: >would highly recommend as a beginner the Campbell-Karttunen grammar and >workbook. Dr. Schwaller, on this list, can give you the details about >getting copies. I've used these in my classes at I.U. and the students did >very well. For further information see the following http://www.mrs.umn.edu/academic/history/Nahuatl/hotlinks.htm And for more books on Nahuatl see Ricardo Salvador's web page: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/nahuatl.html John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 27 02:25:16 2004 From: chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM (chelo dona) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:25:16 -0300 Subject: milaacatontli - ye izquich Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Fri Aug 27 21:20:39 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:20:39 -0600 Subject: Query Message-ID: Answers to any of these questions would be greatly appreciated: 1. What might be the equivalent a la Karttunen of a word written around AD 1600 as quitztotica where the first t *might* be an extranious mark or accent over the preceding i, but could also really be a t. 2. could Mex. a:xcan iuhquin be used to mean something like "which is the same as [what we call] Mexico today"? and 3. When was "Mexico" (or at least the abbreviation, Mex.) first used to designate either the Valley of Mexico and--perhaps later--for New Spain as a whole (or at least territory beyond the Valley of Mexico) by folks who lived there? From Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM Mon Aug 30 13:59:03 2004 From: Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM (Irene Padilla) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 06:59:03 -0700 Subject: Translation/pronunciation Message-ID: Can anyone give me the correct pronunciation/translation for Rat? My daughter is doing a project for Elementary and she needs this info? thank you ~Irene -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From institute at CSUMB.EDU Mon Aug 30 14:00:28 2004 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 07:00:28 -0700 Subject: Translation/pronunciation Message-ID: Thank you for your message. We will respond to your communique as soon as it is feasible to do so. If you have an urgent matter, please contact Lilly Martinez by voice mail at 831-582-4364. From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 30 20:24:34 2004 From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:24:34 -0400 Subject: Translation/pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Irene: > Can anyone give me the correct pronunciation/translation > for Rat? My daughter is doing a project for Elementary and > she needs this info? I believe the word you're looking for is quimichin. I believe it would be pronouced "kee-MEE-cheen," with capitalization indicating the stressed syllable. Interestingly, this word is also used as a diminutive, so, based upon context, one might translate it as "small" or "little." Hope this helps. -Geoff From micc2 at COX.NET Mon Aug 30 21:43:37 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:43:37 -0700 Subject: Translation/pronunciation In-Reply-To: <9904568204083013246e91ac6c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: isn't quimichin a mouse???? Geoff Davis wrote: >Hi, Irene: > > > >>Can anyone give me the correct pronunciation/translation >>for Rat? My daughter is doing a project for Elementary and >>she needs this info? >> >> > >I believe the word you're looking for is quimichin. I believe it >would be pronouced "kee-MEE-cheen," with capitalization >indicating the stressed syllable. > >Interestingly, this word is also used as a diminutive, so, >based upon context, one might translate it as "small" or >"little." > >Hope this helps. > >-Geoff > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 30 22:07:13 2004 From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:07:13 -0400 Subject: Translation/pronunciation In-Reply-To: <41339F89.908@cox.net> Message-ID: > isn't quimichin a mouse???? Yep. But its the closest I could find. It could be my overall lack of experience, but, I was able to find several Nahuatl tutorials on the 'net that seem to indicate quimichin could also be translated as "rat". If there is a better word, please do let me know. I'm still very much the newbie. -Geoff From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Mon Aug 30 22:25:38 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:25:38 -0500 Subject: Translation/pronunciation In-Reply-To: <9904568204083015073d6f7258@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Huezacotl is the kangaroo rat. I don't know the European rat's word in Nahuatl. Michael On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Geoff Davis wrote: > > isn't quimichin a mouse???? > > Yep. But its the closest I could find. It could be my overall lack > of experience, but, I was able to find several Nahuatl tutorials on > the 'net that seem to indicate quimichin could also be translated > as "rat". If there is a better word, please do let me know. I'm > still very much the newbie. > > -Geoff > > > From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Mon Aug 30 22:53:45 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:53:45 -0500 Subject: Translation/pronunciation In-Reply-To: <9904568204083015073d6f7258@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In the modern dialects that I'm familiar with, 'quimichin' is used for "mouse" and 'quimich-ilama(tl)' is used for "rat". (ilamatl = old woman) This is in villages where the folk-zoology classifies 'raton' "mouse" and 'rata' "rat" as the male and female of the same species. My recollection is that Molina didn't really give a word for "rat". He did have: atozan. cierto animalejo como rata. chachahuatl. liron, o cierto animal como rata. tozan. topo, animal o rata. [gopher] cuitlapilhueyac. raton. huezacotl. raton. quimichin. raton. quimichpil. ratoncillo. quimichton. ratoncillo. tetzauhquimichin. sorze, raton pequen~o. Joe On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Geoff Davis wrote: > > isn't quimichin a mouse???? > > Yep. But its the closest I could find. It could be my overall lack > of experience, but, I was able to find several Nahuatl tutorials on > the 'net that seem to indicate quimichin could also be translated > as "rat". If there is a better word, please do let me know. I'm > still very much the newbie. > > -Geoff > > > From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 30 23:47:54 2004 From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:47:54 -0400 Subject: Translation/pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > In the modern dialects that I'm familiar with, 'quimichin' is used for > "mouse" and 'quimich-ilama(tl)' is used for "rat". (ilamatl = old woman) > This is in villages where the folk-zoology classifies 'raton' "mouse" and > 'rata' "rat" as the male and female of the same species. Is this an example of a pun or play on words, perhaps, with quimich- acting as both a dimunitive ("little" old lady) as well as a hint that the "old lady" in question is indeed a rodent? > My recollection is that Molina didn't really give a word for "rat". He > did have: [-snip-snip-] Thanks for the list. I learn new things every day. :D -Geoff From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Tue Aug 31 04:11:22 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:11:22 -0500 Subject: Translation/pronunciation In-Reply-To: <9904568204083016475f045512@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > > In the modern dialects that I'm familiar with, 'quimichin' is used for > > "mouse" and 'quimich-ilama(tl)' is used for "rat". (ilamatl = old woman) > > This is in villages where the folk-zoology classifies 'raton' "mouse" and > > 'rata' "rat" as the male and female of the same species. > > Is this an example of a pun or play on words, perhaps, with quimich- > acting as both a dimunitive ("little" old lady) as well as a hint that the "old > lady" in question is indeed a rodent? > I don't think so -- in Tepoztlan 'piolama' is a hen -- a mature female chicken. Geoff, When you said that 'quimichin' might indicate "diminutive" or "small", depending on context, I reflected on my internalized semantics... and, though the *referent* is small, I couldn't dredge up a feeling that Nahuatl seemed to lean on that for expressing the idea of "smallness". So I made a list of all the 'quimich-' occurrences in the Florentine Codex. The numbers are related to their alphabetical order, but I'll move the most relevant ones to the beginning of the list, sometimes with a comment: *** I doubt that the two following items have anything to do with the smallness of the mouse itself: quexilquimichcuitlatl** 10. *quexilquimichcuitlatl*. small bit of filth about the groin (b.10 f.8 p.138b). quexilquiquimichcuitlatl** 11. *quexilquiquimichcuitlatl*. small bits of filth about the groin (b.10 f.8 p.138b). *** This one looks like a hit for your theory: quimichetl** 14. *quimichetl*: frisoles de ratones son negros i menudos. mouse bean mouse beans; they are black and small (b.11 f.27 p.285). *** Here 'quimichnacaztic' is associated with "tiny" -- "like a mouse's ear". Well, I will admit that the ear of a mouse is smaller than that of a goat, a fox, an armadillo, etc.,... quimichnacaztic** 47. in ticehuac in xoxouhqui, in patzahuac, in chilacachtic, in xamanqui, in cacaltic, in *quimichnacaztic*, quicenneloa, quicepanneloa, quimotlaltia, itlan caquia, quicepanmictia,. the whitish, the fresh cacao beans he intermixes, mingles, throws in, introduces, ruins with the shrunken, the chili-seed-like, the broken, the hollow, the tiny. (b.10 f.4 p.65). *** 'quimichtetl' is used to refer to a "small black bean", so that's another point scored for the association between 'quimichin' and "smallness". quimichtetl** 56. ipanitia, in cualli etl in amanehua, in chipactic, in tetzcaltic, in tolontic, in telolotic, in chipaccaltic, in huel quizqui tonacayotl, in mitoa huel maquiztli, huel chalchihuitl, huel teoxihuitl, in tlahtiloni, in toptemaloni, in petlacaltemaloni, in cuezcomatemaloni, in ecoztli, in echichilli paletl, in iztaquetl, in epitzactli, in xaltetl, in *quimichtetl*, in ecuicuilli, in cuicuiletl, in ecoztapayolli, in ayecotli, in cuahuecoc.. separately, in one place, he prices, sorts, selects the good beans, the new crop --the clean, the smooth, the round, the pellet-like, the very clean; the well-formed food, the so-called good bracelet, good green stone, good turquoise; that worth being stored, worth being put away in the bag, in the reed box, in the storage bin; the yellow beans, red beans, brown beans, white beans, small beans, whitish beans, small black beans, pinto beans, spotted beans, round yellow beans, large black beans, wild beans. (b.10 f.4 p.66). So what do our fellow listeros think? Joe ==================== aquimichin** 1. *aquimichin*:. water mouse (b.11 f.2 p.18). calquimichi** 2. in otomi. quicua in epatl, quicua in coatl, quicua in mototli, in cuauhquimichi in tlalquimichi, in *calquimichi*:. the otomi ate skunks, serpents, squirrels, forest mice, field mice, house mice. (b.10 f.11 p.180). calquimichin** 3. *calquimichin*:. house mouse (b.11 f.2 p.18). cuauhquimichi** 4. in otomi. quicua in epatl, quicua in coatl, quicua in mototli, in *cuauhquimichi* in tlalquimichi, in calquimichi:. the otomi ate skunks, serpents, squirrels, forest mice, field mice, house mice. (b.10 f.11 p.180). cuauhquimichin** 5. *cuauhquimichin*:. forest mouse (b.11 f.2 p.18). moquimichcuepti** 6. in ihcuac, i, mochihua: huel motenmatia in ootztin, tlahueimatia, momauhtiaya: ma nelli *moquimichcuepti*, ma quiquimichtinmocuepti, in impilhuan.. when this came to pass, women with child feared evil; they thought it portentous; they were terrified [lest], perchance, their [unborn] children might be changed into mice; each of their children might turn into a mouse. (b.7 f.1 p.8). moquimichpahuia** 7. inic maci quimichin: mizton, gaton quinmictia: momonhuia, motlapehuia: *moquimichpahuia*.. thus is a mouse caught: the cat kills it; it is snared, it is trapped; it is poisoned with quimichpatli. (b.11 f.2 p.18). niquimichpahuia** 8. *niquimichpahuia*.. I take quimichpatli. (b.11 f.13 p.131). niquimichti** 9. ic mitoa in tlatolli *niquimichti*: quitoznequi, nitetlanencati:. hence is said the saying, "I mouse him"; that is to say, "I eavesdrop on one." (b.11 f.2 p.17). quimichcuani** 12. cincuani, nochcuani, *quimichcuani*, nacacuani:. it is an eater of ripe maize ears, of tunas, of mice, of flesh. (b.11 f.5 p.43). 13. *quimichcuani*, cuetzpalcuani, zacatzilcuani:. it is an eater of mice, of lizards, of �acacilin [birds]. (b.11 f.5 p.45). quimichi** 15. in tetlanochili *quimichi* tenxochitl, ehcatlatole, tecoconahuiani, xochihua, tetenxochioyani, tetenxochitzotzonanii tepahuiani:. the procurer [is like a] mouse; [he is] a beguiler, a windbag, an enticer, a seducer, a seducer with words, a wheedler, a tempter. (b.10 f.2 p.37). 16. in itech ca in itech mochihua *quimichi*, tochi. etc.. they are on, they form on mice, rabbits, etc. (b.11 f.10 p.99). 17. ahzo motlatlaloa in *quimichi*, in anozo tlein yolcatl itech. perhaps the mice, or whatever creature the worm lives on, flees. (b.11 f.10 p.99). 18. in iuh mitoa, in tecuani, in coyotl, oztoc ichan in tochin, in mazatl, cuauhtla ichan, in michi atlan ichan, in coatl, in *quimichi* tlacoyocco ichan.. so it is said: the home of the wild beast, of the coyote, is in the cave; the forest is the home of the rabbit, of the deer; the home of the fish is in the water; the home of the serpent, of the mouse, is in the hole. (b.11 f.26 p.275). *** #19 was a spurious hit... not related to mouse... quimichin** 20. inic neci in *quimichin* quicoyonia in chiquihuitl, anozo tecomatl, anozo xicalli quitencuacuaya.. in order for it to be evident, the mouse made a hole in a large basket, or gnawed the edges of gourd dishes or bowls. (b.5 f.3 p.191). 21. ihuan nohuian tlacocoyonia in *quimichin*,. and everywhere the mouse made holes. (b.5 f.3 p.191). 22. inic cempoalli on chicuei capitulo, itechpa tlatoa in *quimichin* itentlacahual.. twenty-eighth chapter, which telleth of the gnawed leavings of a mouse. (b.5 f.3 p.193). 23. in *quimichin* in zazo tlein quicua: ayac huel quicualiaya,. whatsoever a mouse had gnawed none might eat. (b.5 f.3 p.193). 24. quilmach in aquin quicualia in quicahua *quimichin*, itech tlatlamiz,. it was said that he who ate what a mouse had left would be falsely accused. (b.5 f.3 p.193). 25. ca mitoa: oquichtequico in *quimichin*, oquichtacacua.. for it was said that the mouse came to steal it; he came to eat it in stealth. (b.5 f.3 p.193). 26. ipampa i, in ayac huel quicualiaya in itentlacahual *quimichin*.. wherefore no one might eat gnawed leavings of a mouse. (b.5 f.3 p.193). 27. no iuh ipan mitoz: in aquin quicua itentlacahual *quimichin*, itech tlatlamiz, in zazo tlein tlatolli, anozo in tlein polihuiz.. likewise it was said of it that he who ate the gnawed leavings of a mouse would be accused falsely of some sort of story or of that which might be missing. (b.5 f.3 p.193). 28. in ihcuac huetzi intlan pipiltotonti: in tenanhuan itlacoyocco contlaza in *quimichin*, anoce impilhuan, quimilhuia: itlacoyocco xictlali in quimichin:. when the teeth of small children dropped out, the mothers cast them into a mouse-hole, or they said to their children: "place it in the mouse-hole." (b.5 f.3 p.195). 29. in ihcuac huetzi intlan pipiltotonti: in tenanhuan itlacoyocco contlaza in quimichin, anoce impilhuan, quimilhuia: itlacoyocco xictlali in *quimichin*:. when the teeth of small children dropped out, the mothers cast them into a mouse-hole, or they said to their children: "place it in the mouse-hole." (b.5 f.3 p.195). 30. auh in itlacual yehuatl in *quimichin*, in huezacotl, in at cana ipan quiza, totzintli:. and its food is mice, kangaroo rats, and small birds, if one of them somewhere passes by it. (b.11 f.1 p.9). 31. in iuhqui tozan, in iuhqui *quimichin*, tlallan ichan: zan huel no iuhqui.. like the gopher, like the mouse, its burrow is underground, just the same [as theirs]. (b.11 f.2 p.11). 32. in itlacual: *quimichin*, nextecuilin, tlalomitl:. its food is mice, nextecuillin worms, tlalomitl worms. (b.11 f.2 p.13). 33. inic chicome parrapho: itechpa tlatoa in yoyolitoton, in iuhqui yehuatl, *quimichin*: ihuan in oc cequintin, zan no iuhque. seventh paragraph, which telleth of the small animals, like the mouse, and of others like it. (b.11 f.2 p.17). 34. *quimichin*:. mouse (b.11 f.2 p.17). 35. inin *quimichin*: nextontli, chichintontli, poyactontli, yayamazpil, yayamaztontli:. this mouse is a little ashen, blackish, a little dark, rather yielding, a little soft. (b.11 f.2 p.17). 36. ic no motocayotia *quimichin*: in tetlahnenqui, ipampa in manel canin: cacalaqui ca concaqui, ca concui in tlatolli: ihuan ontlanemilia,. hence also the eavesdropper is also called mouse, because no matter where, he continually enters the house, he hears and acquires the information and inquires into one's affairs. (b.11 f.2 p.17). 37. inic maci *quimichin*: mizton, gaton quinmictia: momonhuia, motlapehuia: moquimichpahuia.. thus is a mouse caught: the cat kills it; it is snared, it is trapped; it is poisoned with quimichpatli. (b.11 f.2 p.18). 38. ihuan itoca atozan, zan ye yeh in *quimichin*:. also its name is water gopher. it is the same as the mouse. (b.11 f.2 p.18). 39. in cuauhtla nemi *quimichin*, huiac, tomahuac.. it is a mouse which lives in the forest; it is long, thick. (b.11 f.2 p.18). 40. in milpan in ixtlahuacan nemi, *quimichin*.. it is a mouse which lives in the maize fields, on the plains. (b.11 f.2 p.18). 41. in techan nemi *quimichin*.. it is a mouse which lives in one's house. (b.11 f.2 p.18). 42. zan ye no yeh in *quimichin*, (tepiton. ololtontli).. it is the same as the mouse, [small, small and round]. (b.11 f.2 p.18). 43. zan ye no yeh in *quimichin*).. [it is the same as the mouse.] (b.11 f.2 p.18). 44. inic mitoa tetzompa, in otlacua in oixhuic: cuauhtitech, metitech quinzozo in imalhuan: in *quimichin*, in cuetzpalin.. it is called tetzompa because, when it has fed, when it is satiated, it impales its catch --mice, lizards --on trees [and] on maguey leaves. (b.11 f.5 p.45). 45. *quimichin*, cuetzpalin in quicua,. it eats mich [and] lizards. (b.11 f.5 p.46). quimichme** 46. in tonalco, *quimichme*, tapayaxti, yolcame in quincua.. in the winter it eats mice, salamanders, [small] animals. (b.11 f.1 p.9). quimichpatli** 48. quinamaca tlapalhuatzalli, tlacuahuac tlapalli, tlapalnextli, nocheztli, zacatlaxcalli texotli, tetizatl, tlilli, tlacehuilli, tlalxocotl, axi, tzictli, tlaaxnelolli, tlahuitl, tlilxochitl, mecaxochitl huei nacaztli, teonacaztli, tlacuatl, tlacuacuitlapilli, xiuhtotonti tlanelhuatotonti, chapopohtli, tecopalli, copalli, nacazcolotl, *quimichpatli*, matlalin, tlaliyac, apetztli.. he sells dried pigment, bars of cochineal pigment, cochineal mixed with chalk or flour, [pure] cochineal; light yellow, sky blue pigment; chalk, lampblack, dark blue pigment; alum, axin, chicle, bitumen-mixed chicle, red ochre; tlilsochitl, mecaxochitl, uei nacaztli, teonacaztli; opossum, opossum tail; small herbs, small roots; bitumen, resin, copal; nacazcolotl, quimichpatli; a blue coloring made from blossoms; sulfate of copper, iron pyrites. (b.10 f.4 p.77). 49. ic mopotonia in tlanechicolli, tecomaxo coyoxochitl *quimichpatli*, tzitzicaztli iyetl xoxouhqui,. if it worsens, a poultice of assorted [herbs] is applied; tecomaxochitl, coyoxochitl, quimichpatli, tzitzicaztli, iietl, xoxouhqui. (b.10 f.9 p.149). 50. *quimichpatli*,. quimichpatli (b.11 f.13 p.131). 51. inic mitoa *quimichpatli*: in quiquimichti, tlacualli quin nelhuia, intla quicua ic mimiqui, tlatlacocotoca in incuitlaxcol.. it is called quimichpatli for this reason: it is food [for] mice, because, it is asserted, if they eat it, they die of it; their intestines break up. (b.11 f.13 p.131). quimichpil** 52. ma *quimichpil* oconatlic.. the mouselet may have drunk it (b.6 f.18 p.227). 53. ic ihcuac quitoa. ma *quimichpil* oconatlic.. then at that time they say: "the mouselet may have drunk it." (b.6 f.18 p.227). *** #54 and #55 were spurious hits quimichtizque** 57. ipampa intla oncochizque, quilmach quiquimichtin mocuepazque, *quimichtizque*.. because if they were to sleep--it was thought--they would turn into mice; they would become mice. (b.7 f.2 p.27). quimichtlaolli** 58. itla quitlaza in *quimichtlaolli*, in cuezcontlaolli, in tlaolpalaxtli, in tlaliyac, in cocoyac, in quipiyac,. he tosses, he casts into it the mouse-gnawed maize, the maize shelled in the bin, the spoiled maize, the fetid, the bad, the stinking. (b.10 f.4 p.66). quiquimichti** 59. quilmach: intla zan cali yez: amo huel macizque in *quiquimichti*, quilmach zan quimonihuatica.. it was thought that if it were in the house, they could not be caught; it was said that it would warn them. (b.5 f.3 p.191). 60. inic cempoalli omome capitulo, intechpa tlatoa in *quiquimichti*.. twenty-second chapter, which telleth of mice. (b.5 f.3 p.191). 61. quitoaya in ye huecauh, quilmach in *quiquimichti* huel quimati, in aquin momemecatia: in ahzo telpochtli, anozo cihuatl.. they said, in times past, that it was thought that mice knew well him who had a paramour, whether a young man or a woman. (b.5 f.3 p.191). 62. inic mitoa quimichpatli: in *quiquimichti*, tlacualli quin nelhuia, intla quicua ic mimiqui, tlatlacocotoca in incuitlaxcol.. it is called quimichpatli for this reason: it is food [for] mice, because, it is asserted, if they eat it, they die of it; their intestines break up. (b.11 f.13 p.131). quiquimichtin** 63. ic matlactli capitulo, oncan mitoa: in tetzahuitl inic motetzahuiaya, in intechpa azcame, anozo cuecueya: ihuan in *quiquimichtin*.. tenth chapter, in which is related the omen, by which a portent was drawn, of ants or frogs, and mice. (b.5 f.2 p.173). 64. ihuan in yehuatl texolotl: in ihcuac quimaci, in quinmohhuia *quiquimichtin*: in texolotl quiyahuac quihuallaza,. and [concerning] this pestle: when they caught, trapped mice, they cast the pestle out the doorway. (b.5 f.3 p.191). 65. ipampa intla oncochizque, quilmach *quiquimichtin* mocuepazque, quimichtizque.. because if they were to sleep--it was thought--they would turn into mice; they would become mice. (b.7 f.2 p.27). quiquimichtinmocuepti** 66. in ihcuac, i, mochihua: huel motenmatia in ootztin, tlahueimatia, momauhtiaya: ma nelli moquimichcuepti, ma *quiquimichtinmocuepti*, in impilhuan.. when this came to pass, women with child feared evil; they thought it portentous; they were terrified [lest], perchance, their [unborn] children might be changed into mice; each of their children might turn into a mouse. (b.7 f.1 p.8). tetzauhquimichin** 67. no iuhqui in *tetzauhquimichin*, anozo tetlaquechililli. pl' chililti: mochi yehuan quintlaliaya, quintetoquiliaya, in atlaca, in tecocoliani:. so also the ominous mice, perhaps [as reported in] tales, all these, the inhuman people, the enemies, placed and buried. (b.5 f.2 p.173). tiquihquimichintinemi** 68. amo no cencan moyolic in tinenemiz, amo no tiquinhuihuilanaz in mocxi: inic amo mopan mitoz tihuilaxpol tixocotexpol, teticapol: inic amo mopan mitoz titlatlaztiminitinemi, *tiquihquimichintinemi*: inic amo no ticamanalli timocuepaz, titoloz: timimixiuhcanehnemi,. neither art thou to travel very slowly, nor to drag thy feet, lest it be said of thee that thou art a dragger, thou art a lout, thou art a fat one; lest it be said of thee that thou goest waddling, that thou goest like a mouse; also lest thou turn thyself into an object of derision, incline thy head, travel like a pregnant woman. (b.6 f.10 p.121). tlalquimichi** 69. in otomi. quicua in epatl, quicua in coatl, quicua in mototli, in cuauhquimichi in *tlalquimichi*, in calquimichi:. the otomi ate skunks, serpents, squirrels, forest mice, field mice, house mice. (b.10 f.11 p.180). tlalquimichin** 70. *tlalquimichin*:. field mouse (b.11 f.2 p.18). From Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM Tue Aug 31 13:40:51 2004 From: Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM (Irene Padilla) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 06:40:51 -0700 Subject: Translation/pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to all for the replies ~Irene "r. joe campbell" Sent by: Nahua language and culture discussion 08/30/04 03:53 PM Please respond to Nahua language and culture discussion To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU cc: Subject: Re: Translation/pronunciation In the modern dialects that I'm familiar with, 'quimichin' is used for "mouse" and 'quimich-ilama(tl)' is used for "rat". (ilamatl = old woman) This is in villages where the folk-zoology classifies 'raton' "mouse" and 'rata' "rat" as the male and female of the same species. My recollection is that Molina didn't really give a word for "rat". He did have: atozan. cierto animalejo como rata. chachahuatl. liron, o cierto animal como rata. tozan. topo, animal o rata. [gopher] cuitlapilhueyac. raton. huezacotl. raton. quimichin. raton. quimichpil. ratoncillo. quimichton. ratoncillo. tetzauhquimichin. sorze, raton pequen~o. Joe On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Geoff Davis wrote: > > isn't quimichin a mouse???? > > Yep. But its the closest I could find. It could be my overall lack > of experience, but, I was able to find several Nahuatl tutorials on > the 'net that seem to indicate quimichin could also be translated > as "rat". If there is a better word, please do let me know. I'm > still very much the newbie. > > -Geoff > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carlossn at UI.BOE.ES Tue Aug 31 18:29:24 2004 From: carlossn at UI.BOE.ES (Carlos Santamarina) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:29:24 +0200 Subject: Otonteuctli icuic Message-ID: A sentence from the Florentine Codex. There's no spanish version, because on the left the page is blank. The context is about Otontecutli, the otomi god. We have to know that Cuecuex is the tepanec name of the same god, and otomi and tepanec are from the same ethnic family: «Otontecutli icujc [...] Nitepanecatl aiacuecuexi niquetzalcoatly, aia cuecuexi... » (Florentine Codex book 2º, appendix: 141) "Otontecutli's song I am tepaneca ...................... I am Quetzalcoatl (?), ...................." Thank you all. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Tue Aug 31 19:19:51 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:19:51 -0500 Subject: Otonteuctli icuic In-Reply-To: <4134C384.5040008@ui.boe.es> Message-ID: Carlos, Without being overly familiar with the Cantares, it seems most likely aia is a vocalic-melodic element without regular semantic value. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From micc2 at COX.NET Tue Aug 31 19:21:48 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:21:48 -0700 Subject: Otonteuctli icuic In-Reply-To: <4134C384.5040008@ui.boe.es> Message-ID: I just received this and I am interested in what thread it belongs to. In am very interested in the Otomanguean language family. thanks! Carlos Santamarina wrote: > A sentence from the Florentine Codex. There's no spanish version, > because on the left the page is blank. The context is about > Otontecutli, the otomi god. > We have to know that Cuecuex is the tepanec name of the same god, and > otomi and tepanec are from the same ethnic family: > > «Otontecutli icujc > [...] > Nitepanecatl aiacuecuexi niquetzalcoatly, aia cuecuexi... » > (Florentine Codex book 2º, appendix: 141) > > "Otontecutli's song > I am tepaneca ...................... I am Quetzalcoatl (?), > ...................." > > > Thank you all. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Aug 4 22:38:35 2004 From: cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET (Roland Trevino) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:38:35 -0700 Subject: Aztec Cardinal Directions Message-ID: Hello all, i am wondering something about the Aztec directions: I have seen them written like this: 1) Tlalocan -- EAST 2) Cihuatlampa -- WEST 3) Mictlampa -- NORTH 4) Huitzlampa -- SOUTH However, i have heard them orally like this (from danzantes): 1) Tlapcopa OR Tlapcopan 2) Cihuatlalpan OR Tonataliaquian 3) Mictlalpan OR Teotolampa (Teotlalpan) 4) Huitzlalpan OR Amilpampa I HAVE 2 QUESTIONS: *** What exactly do these words mean -- and why the variant pronunciations? *** Where can i find out more about these directions and the names of the 13 Aztec heavens and 9 infraworlds? I am keenly interested in this subject and any leads / info would be greatly appreciated :) ~Roland Trevino -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM Thu Aug 5 17:12:13 2004 From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 10:12:13 -0700 Subject: Aztec Cardinal Directions In-Reply-To: <002601c47a73$c7e703d0$e3e1b73f@rolandcrmw4dhe> Message-ID: In the _C?dice Borgia_ (Seler, E., ed., Fondo de Cultura Econ?mica, Mexico, df, 1963), it talks about the five regions, and the deities. It's on page49-52. The explanation by Seler, and translated into Spanish by M. Frenk, accompanies the codex in two other volumes. You can also read what he says about the ?rboles C?smicos. Sahag?n must have a lot on what you're looking for, but I don't know exactly on what page. -Richard Hello all, i am wondering something about the Aztec directions: I have seen them written like this: 1) Tlalocan -- EAST 2) Cihuatlampa -- WEST 3) Mictlampa -- NORTH 4) Huitzlampa -- SOUTH However, i have heard them orally like this (from danzantes): 1) Tlapcopa OR Tlapcopan 2) Cihuatlalpan OR Tonataliaquian 3) Mictlalpan OR Teotolampa (Teotlalpan) 4) Huitzlalpan OR Amilpampa I HAVE 2 QUESTIONS: *** What exactly do these words mean -- and why the variant pronunciations? *** Where can i find out more about these directions and the names of the 13 Aztec heavens and 9 infraworlds? I am keenly interested in this subject and any leads / info would be greatly appreciated :) ~Roland Trevino --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM Thu Aug 5 18:01:49 2004 From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 11:01:49 -0700 Subject: huel(i) In-Reply-To: <002601c47a73$c7e703d0$e3e1b73f@rolandcrmw4dhe> Message-ID: In Karttunen's dictionary huel(i) means "to be able to". Three entries above, Huel, has "bien" (good) as one of its definitions. In Sim?on's dictionary, ueli means "con posibilidad", but there's another ueli. This other ueli is four entries earlier, under "uel o ueli". This other ueli means bien. My question: is Karttunen?s huel (bien), the same thing as Sim?on's hueli (which also means bien). Is that extra letter I, that makes Karttunen's word different from Sim?on's, significant? Thank you, Rich --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Fri Aug 6 02:18:09 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 21:18:09 -0500 Subject: xoxopehualiztli Message-ID: Listerohtzitzin, I have been back in Bloomington (the one in Indiana) for only a few days, which the calendar says is actually a week. I find that in my seven week absence while driving to Mexico (DF, Huauchinango, Naupan, Tenango, Hueyapan (Mor.), Tepoztlan, and Taxco), my e-mail queue has grown unbelievably full. I have read many of messages from Nahuat-l, some of them too quickly, but I *will* review them (for the zumo that can be extracted). One topic that I found of interest and retrieved the notes below on is "xoxopehualiztli". Below are all the cases of "...xoxope(hu /hu)..." that occur in the Florentine Codex. 1. One of the early messages caught my eye because I assumed that (xo)xopehua... was a transitive verb and the quoted form gave no indication of that. As it turned out, all of the five forms which occurred in the FC did have objects. 2. I assume that the basic semantics of (xo)xopehua are straightforward: xo(tl) foot/leg [reduplicated] pehua start, shove, push xopehua seems to be fused to the extent that when one shoves something away with a hand, it is possible to say "nic-maxopehua" (I hand foot-push it). Items #1 and #2 below are possibly only literal uses of "xopehua", while items #3-#5 seem to indicate that it has taken on a "natural" metaphorical meaning involving 'rejection, rejection'. Just my quickie "parecer". Saludos, Joe conxoxopeuhque** 1. caanque, hueca *conxoxopeuhque*, quihualchichitotzque, hueca ica ommamayauhque in metl:. they took it up; they kicked each [plant] away; they made them burst out [of their places]; far did they cast the magueys. (b.12 f.3 p.35). tinexoxopehuililo** 2. anca ye hueli in iz *tinexoxopehuililo*, anca ye huel in teuhtli, tlazolli ic timilacatzotiaz:. accordingly, is it possible that thou wilt be ejected from the very filth, the refuse, in which thou wilt envelop thyself? (b.6 f.6 p.74). tlaxoxopehualiztli** 3. *tlaxoxopehualiztli*, huehuetzcayotl, chocholocayotl nimitzonnochihuililiz in mopetlapan, in mocpalpan in momahuizyocan.. I shall bring about for thee the ruination of government, the laughable, the folly on thy reed mat, on thy reed seat, on thy place of honor. (b.6 f.4 p.45). 4. nehuatl *tlaxoxopehualiztli*, chocholocayotl, noconnochihuililiz in amauh, in amotepeuh:. I shall bring about ruin, folly to your city. (b.6 f.6 p.67). 5. auh in *tlaxoxopehualiztli* nicchihuilia in tloque nahuaque in ipetlapan, in icpalpan, in imahuizzocan.. and I govern poorly on the reed mat, the reed seat, the place of honor of the lord of the near, of the nigh. (b.6 f.7 p.87). From ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX Fri Aug 6 03:24:33 2004 From: ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rita=20Monta=FFfffff1o?=) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 22:24:33 -0500 Subject: Aztec Cardinal Directions In-Reply-To: <20040805171213.92631.qmail@web90006.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hola: En la Historia General de las Cosas de Nueva Espa?a, Libros 2 al 4, puedes encontrar lo relativo al calendario, los dioses, los niveles, las fiestas. Est? editado por Editorial Porr?a. Continuar? revisando fuentes por si encuentro m?s informaci?n, ojal? y esta te sea ?til. Saludos. Rita rick dosan wrote: In the _C?dice Borgia_ (Seler, E., ed., Fondo de Cultura Econ?mica, Mexico, df, 1963), it talks about the five regions, and the deities. It's on page49-52. The explanation by Seler, and translated into Spanish by M. Frenk, accompanies the codex in two other volumes. You can also read what he says about the ?rboles C?smicos. Sahag?n must have a lot on what you're looking for, but I don't know exactly on what page. -Richard Hello all, i am wondering something about the Aztec directions: I have seen them written like this: 1) Tlalocan -- EAST 2) Cihuatlampa -- WEST 3) Mictlampa -- NORTH 4) Huitzlampa -- SOUTH However, i have heard them orally like this (from danzantes): 1) Tlapcopa OR Tlapcopan 2) Cihuatlalpan OR Tonataliaquian 3) Mictlalpan OR Teotolampa (Teotlalpan) 4) Huitzlalpan OR Amilpampa I HAVE 2 QUESTIONS: *** What exactly do these words mean -- and why the variant pronunciations? *** Where can i find out more about these directions and the names of the 13 Aztec heavens and 9 infraworlds? I am keenly interested in this subject and any leads / info would be greatly appreciated :) ~Roland Trevino --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Net: La mejor conexi?n a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Fri Aug 6 04:44:57 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 23:44:57 -0500 Subject: occe xoxopehualizli Message-ID: I'm sorry to overlap this message with the one that I sent earlier this evening, but I had some rearranged thoughts and thought I'd pass them on. Items #1 and #2 are examples of the combination of "ma(itl)" and "xo(tl)", indicating the fusion of "xo-pehua" -- and the semantic opacity of "xo-". #4 is doubly convincing with regard to the "non-value" of "xo-", the form "oconicxixopeuh" seeming to claim that "icxi(tl)" (i.e, foot) is a necessary modifier to express the notion of 'foot'. #1 is of some semantic interest, with the semantics leaning towards 'rejection' and 'disdain'. #3 is of further semantic interest, with the embedded "tlahtol-", indicating the semantic field of refutation in argument. ************* But what really caught my interest was the co-occurrence of "xope..." and "cholo...", so I checked all of the FC and found #13- #15. #14 and #15 tlaxoxopehualiztli and chocholocayotl seem to fit the image of a "difrasismo" -- they generalize two specific meanings into one new more general meaning. #13, on the other hand, itlah oncholo ... ... itlah oconicxixopeuh seems to contain the seed of a difrasismo, with the elements widely spaced, meant to be only non-contiguous elements of appositional value. For an extended and enlightening treatment of "difrasismos", see Mercedes Montes de Oca's thesis _Los Difrasismos en el Nahuatl del Siglo XVI_ (UNAM 2000). Any apparent lack of enlightenment that appears in my remarks is entirely my own fault and should not reflect negatively on the author. Semi-redundantly, Joe * * * * * * * * * ticmaxopeuh** 1. in quenamicatzintli in at huel ihicac, in at nozo zan quenamicatzintli: ma *ticmaxopeuh*, ma yehuatl, ca itlaihualtzin in toteucyo:. howsoever they may be -- perhaps truly upstanding or perhaps only in any manner -- do not reject the one sent of our lord. (b.6 f.8 p.98). tlamaxopehuaz** 2. cenca huellachielo, huel neixpetzolo, huel neixpepetzalo, in azaca tlamimiloz, in azaca tlaoliniz, in azaca tlamapetoniz, in azaca *tlamaxopehuaz*.. very well were they watched; closely were they watched; closely were they continually watched in case perchance someone might roll something, in case he might move something, in case perchance someone might displace something with his hand, in case perchance someone might knock something with his hand. (b.2 f.3 p.80). motlatolxopeuhtoque** 3. moqueciczatoque, mozoquimotlatoque, motlatzohuilitoque, mocuahcuatoque, mixcuahcuatoque, *motlatolxopeuhtoque*, moyehuatocatoque,. they sat jostling and besmearing one another, disputing and quarreling among themselves, contending, refuting, and bragging. (b.4 f.5 p.47). oconicxixopeuh** 4. in otlatlaco, in calmecac itlah oncholo: intlanel zan aca onmotepotlami, itlah *oconicxixopeuh*, oc huel ic conacique,. when a fault had been committed in the priests' house, or some error had been done--even though someone had only stumbled, or tripped over something, at once, for this, they laid hold of him. (b.7 f.2 p.17). conxoxopeuhque** 5. caanque, hueca *conxoxopeuhque*, quihualchichitotzque, hueca ica ommamayauhque in metl:. they took it up; they kicked each [plant] away; they made them burst out [of their places]; far did they cast the magueys. (b.12 f.3 p.35). ticxopeuh** 6. intla iuh motlamachitiz toteucyo, intla aca, iuh quimitalhuiz, motech tlatoz: ma tictlatlaz, ma *ticxopeuh* in ihiyotzin toteucyo:. if it so please our lord, if someone so will demand, will speak for thee, thou art not to reject, to kick away the spirit of our lord. (b.6 f.8 p.97). timotlaxopehuallalpiliz** 7. inic timotlalpiliz: amo *timotlaxopehuallalpiliz*, amo no tictitichoz in monetlalpilil:. "thus art thou to tie on thy cape: do not tie it on so that thou goest tripping over it; neither art thou to shorten thy cape. (b.6 f.10 p.123). tinexoxopehuililo** 8. anca ye hueli in iz *tinexoxopehuililo*, anca ye huel in teuhtli, tlazolli ic timilacatzotiaz:. accordingly, is it possible that thou wilt be ejected from the very filth, the refuse, in which thou wilt envelop thyself? (b.6 f.6 p.74). tlatlaxopehua** 9. tlatlahuilana, *tlatlaxopehua*, tlaquequelotinemi, tlaxocotinemi, iciacacpa tlaquixtitinemi, acollapetonitinemi, xoxotlamati, xoxocuappitznehnemi, quihuihuilana in icxi, monenecuilotiuh in nenemi:. they drag it; they trip over it; they go about mocking, they go rudely, they go drawing it to the arm pit, shoulder bared; they go in conceit, graceless, dragging their feet, twisting and turning as they travel. (b.6 f.10 p.123). tlaxoxopehualiztli** 10. *tlaxoxopehualiztli*, huehuetzcayotl, chocholocayotl nimitzonnochihuililiz in mopetlapan, in mocpalpan in momahuizyocan.. I shall bring about for thee the ruination of government, the laughable, the folly on thy reed mat, on thy reed seat, on thy place of honor. (b.6 f.4 p.45). 11. nehuatl *tlaxoxopehualiztli*, chocholocayotl, noconnochihuililiz in amauh, in amotepeuh:. I shall bring about ruin, folly to your city. (b.6 f.6 p.67). 12. auh in *tlaxoxopehualiztli* nicchihuilia in tloque nahuaque in ipetlapan, in icpalpan, in imahuizzocan.. and I govern poorly on the reed mat, the reed seat, the place of honor of the lord of the near, of the nigh. (b.6 f.7 p.87). ****************** oconicxixopeuh** 13. in otlatlaco, in calmecac itlah oncholo: intlanel zan aca onmotepotlami, itlah *oconicxixopeuh*, oc huel ic conacique,. when a fault had been committed in the priests' house, or some error had been done -- even though someone had only stumbled, or tripped over something, at once, for this, they laid hold of him. (b.7 f.2 p.17). tlaxoxopehualiztli** 14. *tlaxoxopehualiztli*, huehuetzcayotl, chocholocayotl nimitzonnochihuililiz in mopetlapan, in mocpalpan in momahuizyocan.. I shall bring about for thee the ruination of government, the laughable, the folly on thy reed mat, on thy reed seat, on thy place of honor. (b.6 f.4 p.45). 15. nehuatl *tlaxoxopehualiztli*, chocholocayotl, noconnochihuililiz in amauh, in amotepeuh:. I shall bring about ruin, folly to your city. (b.6 f.6 p.67). From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Sun Aug 8 18:55:25 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 13:55:25 -0500 Subject: (te)cuacuilli Message-ID: Listeros, My limitations in knowledge of culture and history frequently act as roadblocks in morphological analysis. The current one is "cuacuilli". I know that it refers to older priests and I have certainly entertained the that it has the morphological composition "cua:itl-cui-l-tli" and might derive from a particular role that this group of priests had -- that of receiving (catching and disposing of) the head of a decapitated sacrificial victim. Is this just fanciful speculation or is there something to it? Further, it frequently occurs in combination with "te-" and seems to refer to idols. Is there any reason not to assume that the "te-" is the morpheme "tetl"? ...and the use of "tozcatecuacuilli" to refer to the uvula (reminding me of "texolotl" in reference to 'pestle')...? Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated, Joe p.s. Here are the relevant occurrences from the Florentine Codex: cihuacuacuilli** 1. *cihuacuacuilli*.. ciuaquacuilli (b.2 f.13 p.211). 2. in *cihuacuacuilli* itequiuh catca, in ixquich huentli, in oncan monequia, atenchicalcatl, in xochitl, in iyetl inic quitlamaniliaya toci huel ixquich in ontlamanaya in cihua in ihcuac nahualoya. the function of the ciuaquacuilli was [to assemble] all the offerings which were required there at the temple of atenchicalcan [toci] -- the flowers, the tobacco, which she laid before toci; verily, all the things which the women offered when the handholding dance was danced. (b.2 f.13 p.211). 3. yehuatl mochi itequiuh catca, in *cihuacuacuilli*.. all this was the function of the ciuaquacuilli. (b.2 f.13 p.211). 4. *cihuacuacuilli* iztac cihuatl.. ciuaquacuilli iztac ciuatl (b.2 f.13 p.211). 5. in *cihuacuacuilli* iztac cihuatl zan no ompa tlapiaya, ompa tlamocuitlahuiaya in atenchicalcan ihuan ipan tlatohuaya in tlachpanaliztli in tletlaliliztli,. the ciuaquacuilli iztac ciuatl also kept watch there, took care there at [the temple of] atenchicalcan and issued directions for the sweeping, the laying of fires. (b.2 f.13 p.211). 6. ihuan in aquin ompa monetoltiaya, yehuatl conilhuiaya in *cihuacuacuilli* iztac cihuatl,. and any who made vows there spoke to the ciuaquacuilli iztac ciuatl. (b.2 f.13 p.211). cuacuacuilti** 7. quintozahuiya tlamacazque: ihuan in *cuacuacuilti*, yehuan in ye huehuetque tlamacazque.. the offering priests and the quaquacuiltin, those who were old offering priests, made them keep the vigil. (b.2 f.1 p.44). 8. auh ye inmac in huehuentzitzin *cuacuacuilti*, calpolhuehuetque:. and they were in the hands of the old men, the quaquacuilti, the old men of the calpulli. (b.2 f.1 p.48). 9. auh in ye iuhqui, niman ic quicuania in *cuacuacuilti*:. and when this was done, then the old priests took away [the offerings]. (b.2 f.3 p.81). 10. nohuiyan quiza in izquican teteopan, quiyacantinemi in *cuacuacuilti*.. he went everywhere, to all the temples; the old priests went ahead of him. (b.2 f.4 p.83). 11. tlapalehuia in *cuacuacuilti*, no yehuantin tlapalehuia, in tetlepantlazque.. the old priests helped; also those who cast [victims] into the fire helped. (b.2 f.6 p.112). 12. niman ic conantihuetzi, conhuilantihuetzi, in *cuacuacuilti*, quihualteca techcac,. then the old priests quickly seized him; they quickly drew him forth. they stretched him out on the offering stone. (b.2 f.6 p.115). 13. auh inic concahua ichan: caantihui, quitzitzitzquitihui iiacolpan; in *cuacuacuilti*: omentin,. and thus they left him at his home; two old priests went grasping him; they went holding him by the arm. (b.2 f.6 p.117). 14. quincuicatlaxilitihui in *cuacuacuilti*,. the old priests went intoning a song for them. (b.2 f.7 p.122). 15. quinnotza quincentlalia in tlamacazque, ihuan quinnotza in *cuacuacuilti*, ihuan quincentlalia in nanti, in tati, in huehuetque,. he summoned, he assembled the priests, and he summoned the headtaking priests, and he assembled the [well]-mothered, the [well]-sired ones, the old men. (b.3 f.4 p.61). cuacuacuiltin** 16. notzalo in tlamacazque huehuetque, in intoca *cuacuacuiltin*: iehuantin caquitilo: auh yehuantin quicaquitia in tlamacazqui, in mitoa quetzalcoatl: ipampa amo campa tepan calaqui, ca mahuizyo, ca tlamauhtia iuhquinma teomacho:. the old priests, whose names were quaquacuiltin, were summoned; these were informed, and they informed the priest called quetzalcoatl; because nowhere did [the latter] enter [any]one's house, for he was venerated, feared, considered as a god; (b.6 f.17 p.210). cuacuilli** 17. auh ce tlacatl *cuacuilli* teyacantiuh,. and leading them went a man, an old priest. (b.2 f.3 p.81). 18. ihuan ce *cuacuilli* conquechpanoa, ayauhchicahuaztli:. and an old priest bore upon his shoulders the mist rattle board. (b.2 f.4 p.85). 19. auh in *cuacuilli*, in ihuehueyo, itoca: teohua, mocuitlacueptinemi, in conitta,. and the old priest, [the god's] old man, named teohua [the god's keeper], kept going back to look upon [the cornmeal on the mat]. (b.2 f.7 p.128). 20. chalchiuhtli icue acatonal *cuacuilli*.. the old priest of chalchiuhtli icue acatonal (b.2 f.13 p.214). 21. in chalchiuhtli icue acatonal *cuacuilli*, ipan tlatoaya in huentli, quitzatziliaya in ixquich itech monequia, in yehuatl chalchiuhtli icue in ipan miquia, in ococalcueitl, in acueitl: ihuan in ixquich in amatl, in copalli, in olli, ihuan in oc cequi.. the old priest of chalchiuhtli icue acatonal issued directions about the offerings [and] made public announcements about all that [the impersonator of] chalchiuhtli icue required at the time that she died: the pine nut skirt, the water skirt, and all the paper, the incense, and so forth. (b.2 f.13 p.214). 22. ayatle onyetiuh tletl quin yehuatl quimatia in yehuatl *cuacuilli* in campa monequiz in tlemaitl.. not yet did fire go [in the ladles]; later the old priest decided where the incense ladles would be required. (b.2 f.14 p.245). 23. auh in yehuatl, in *cuacuilli* niman quihualnahuatia, in nantli inic amo quixiccahuaz in iconeuh, ihuan inic amo tlaxiccahuaz, inic quicahuatiuh in popotl, ihuan in copalli, anozo tlaxipehualli, in cecempoaltica in ompa calpolco.. and this old priest commanded that the mother not abandon her child because of lack of regard, and that [the child] not leave off, because of lack of regard, going to leave the brooms and the incense, or wood shavings, every twenty days there at the calpulco. (b.2 f.14 p.245). epcoacuacuilli** 24. *epcoacuacuilli* tepictoton.. epcoaquacuilli tepictoton (b.2 f.13 p.212). 25. in *epcoacuacuilli* tepictoton ipan tlatohuaya in cuicatl,. the epcoaquacuilli tepictoton directed the songs. (b.2 f.13 p.212). 26. huel yehuatl quitzontequia in *epcoacuacuilli* tepictoton.. verily, this one, the epcoaquacuilli tepictoton, passed judgment on [the songs]. (b.2 f.13 p.212). epcoacuacuiltzin** 27. *epcoacuacuiltzin*.. epcoaquacuiltzin (b.2 f.13 p.207). 28. in *epcoacuacuiltzin*, izca in itequiuh catca:. the epcoaquacuiltzin: behold what were his duties. (b.2 f.13 p.207). nocuacuillo** 29. i *nocuacuillo*. my priesthood (b.2 f.14 p.224). 30. *nocuacuillo* atl iyollo, nechhualhuicatique. my priests have brought me the heart of water (b.2 f.14 p.245). 31. *nocuacuillo*, atl iyollo nechhualhuicatique. my priests have brought me the heart of water (b.2 f.14 p.245). teccizcuacuilli** 32. auh in ye iuhqui, in oconmaqui *teccizcuacuilli*: mec hualmoquetztihuetzi tlatempan:. and when this was done, when the teccizquacuilli had [donned] her skin, then she quickly placed herself here on the edge [of the pyramid]. (b.2 f.7 p.120). tecizcuacuili** 33. itoca *tecizcuacuili*, cenca chicahuac, chichicactic, ihuan cenca cuauhtic.. he was called teccizquacuilli -- a very strong [man], very powerful, and very tall. (b.2 f.7 p.120). tecuacuilti** 34. ihuan in ixquich pieloya techachan, in neteotiloya *tecuacuilti*, in ahzo cuahuitl, anozo tetl tlaxintli, mochi atlan onmotepehuaya:. and the statues, hewn in either wood or stone, kept in each man's home and regarded as gods, were all cast into the water. (b.7 f.2 p.25). tepecuacuilca** 35. in cohuixca, ihuan intoca tlappaneca: in za ce cohuixcatl. inique i, cohuixca: yehuantin in *tepecuacuilca*, in tlachmalacac tlaca, in chilapaneca,. the couixca, whose name [is] also tlappaneca -- the singular [is] couixcatl: these are the people of tepequacuilco, tlachmalacac, [and the province of] chilapan. (b.10 f.11 p.187). tepecuacuilcatl** 36. auh in yehuatl tlatoani: niman quinnonotza in ixquichtin calpixque, petlacalcatl, aztacalcatl: cuauhnahuac calpixqui, huaxtepec calpixqui, cuetlaxtecatl: tochpanecatl: tziuhcoacatl, *tepecuacuilcatl*, huappanecatl, coaixtlahuacatl, tlappanecatl, tlachcotecatl, matlatzincatl, ocuiltecatl, xilotepecatl, atotonilcatl, axocopanecatl, itzcuincuitlapilcatl, atocpanecatl, ayotzintepecatl,. the ruler then consulted with all the majordomos -- the men of the petlacalco and of the aztacalco, the majordomos of quauhnauac and uaxtepec, and [those] of cuetlaxtlan, tochpan, tziuhcoac, tepequacuilco, uapan, coatlixtlauacan, tlappan, tlachco, matlatzinco, ocuillan, xilotepec, atotonilco, axocopan, itzcuincuitlapilco, atocpan, and ayotzintepec. (b.8 f.3 p.51). tlazolcuacuilli** 37. *tlazolcuacuilli*.. tla?olquacuilli (b.2 f.13 p.211). 38. in *tlazolcuacuilli*, itequiuh catca, oncan tlapiaya, oncan tlamocuitlahuiaya in mecatlan,. the function of the tla?olquacuilli was that he kept watch there, he took care there in [the temple of] mecatlan. (b.2 f.13 p.211). totozcatecuacuil** 39. *totozcatecuacuil*. our uvula (b.10 f.6 p.108a). From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Aug 9 18:28:35 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 13:28:35 -0500 Subject: NSF funding Message-ID: Documenting Endangered Languages (DEL) An Interagency Partnership Synopsis of Program: This multi-year funding partnership between the National Science Foundation (NSF) and the National Endowment for the Humanities (NEH) supports projects to develop and advance knowledge concerning endangered human languages. Made urgent by the imminent death of an estimated half of the 6000-7000 currently used human languages, this effort aims also to exploit advances in information technology. Funding will support fieldwork and other activities relevant to recording, documenting, and archiving endangered languages, including the preparation of lexicons, grammars, text samples, and databases. Funding will be available in the form of one- to three-year project grants as well as fellowships for up to twelve months. At least half the available funding will be awarded to projects involving fieldwork. The Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of Natural History (NMNH) will participate in the partnership as a research host, a non-funding role. Cognizant Program Officer(s): * Joan Maling, Linguistics Program Director, Directorate for Social, Behavioral & Economic Sciences, Division of Behavioral and Cognitive Sciences, 995 N, telephone: (703) 292-8046, fax: (703) 292-9068, email: jmaling at nsf.gov * James Herbert, Senior NSF/NEH Advisor, Directorate for Social, Behavioral & Economic Sciences, 805 N, telephone: (703) 292-8276, fax: (703) 292-9179, email: jherbert at nsf.gov * Anna M. Kerttula, Arctic Social Sciences Program Director, Office of the Director, Office of Polar Programs, 755 S, telephone: (703) 292-7432, fax: (703) 292-9082, email: akerttul at nsf.gov * Helen Aguera, Acting Deputy Director, Preservation & Access, National Endowment for the Humanities, 1100 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC, 20506, USA, telephone: (202) 606-8573, email: haguera at neh.gov Applicable Catalog of Federal Domestic Assistance (CFDA) Number(s): * 47.075 --- Social, Behavioral and Economic Sciences John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Tue Aug 10 02:04:25 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:04:25 -0500 Subject: (te)cuacuilli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Joe and List, That is a very interesting puzzle. You may note that the only other context where your Florentine glossary registers the two joined syllables CUACUILLI is for the epiglottis, alluding to swallowing. One prominent example of these priests is the TECCIZCUACUILLI who dons the skin of Toci's ixiptla after her decapitation. From there, I have related as a reference to the consumptive dimension of the feminine earth deity. I would counter-offer then that TECUACUILLI might be descriptive of these priests' role in offering people for divine consumption. Thank you very much for clarifying xopehua; is there anything that comes to mind for topehua? best, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From afinn23 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 12 10:11:47 2004 From: afinn23 at HOTMAIL.COM (Alex Finn) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:11:47 +0000 Subject: sacrification centre Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From indus56 at TELUSPLANET.NET Thu Aug 12 14:08:43 2004 From: indus56 at TELUSPLANET.NET (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:08:43 -0600 Subject: Images of Tenochtitlan -- apologies for any cross-posts Message-ID: Dear NAHUATL-L members, I am preparing an informal presentation of images for the launch of a novel I have written, whose central character is the 17th-century Mexican polymath Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz. In a reading I would like to do on that evening, I have Sor Juana writing about Quetzalcoatl, Ehecatl and about the cyclindrical temple at Tenochtitlan. Would anyone happen to have an image you might allow me to use -- be it a photograph, or an illustration -- of Tenochtitlan that includes that particular temple? By a photograph, of course, I have in mind a photograph of something like the maquette of Tenochtitlan at the Museo de Antropologia in Mexico City. Ideally, it would be an image of which you are the rights holder. However, if the image is particularly good there is still time for me to request permission from the rights holder directly. Gratefully, Paul Anderson -- ***************************************************** Paul Anderson, Hunger's Brides. Random House of Canada (2004). Based on the life of Sor Juana In?s de la Cruz in 17th-century Mexico. Scholarly comment (and chidings) on manuscript excerpts (on-line) are gratefully welcomed at: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/indus56/brides_1/ To pre-order: http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/books/0679310886/reviews/ref=cm_rev_more_2/701-6086858-1493150 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Thu Aug 12 18:12:04 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:12:04 +0100 Subject: Images of Tenochtitlan -- apologies for any cross-posts In-Reply-To: <411B79EB.2090007@telusplanet.net> Message-ID: --- Paul Anderson wrote: > Dear NAHUATL-L members, > I am preparing an informal presentation of images for the launch of a > novel I have written, whose central character is the 17th-century > Mexican polymath Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz. In a reading I would like > to do on that evening, I have Sor Juana writing about Quetzalcoatl, > Ehecatl and about the cylindrical temple at Tenochtitlan. > Would anyone happen to have an image you might allow me to use -- be > it a photograph, or an illustration -- of Tenochtitlan that includes > that particular temple? ... I am in a big forum called http://www.renderosity.com , which is about CGI art (= Computer Generated Imaging) (as in many modern sci-fi movies etc). Is there anyone in this group who might want to ask there if anyone has or can make CGI models of old Tenochtitlanian buildings and artefacts and gods etc? If so, could they be any use to make up pictures for the novel? From s.levack at BTINTERNET.COM Thu Aug 12 19:53:36 2004 From: s.levack at BTINTERNET.COM (SIMON LEVACK) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:53:36 +0100 Subject: Images of Tenochtitlan -- apologies for any cross-posts In-Reply-To: <20040812181204.30820.qmail@web86709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Apologies for reproducing the whole of both messages under reply but it's all relevant. I was just going to say that the most vivid computer-generated images of Tenochtitlan-Tlatelolco, including the Templo Mayor area and particularly the conical temple of Quetzalcoatl Ehecatl, that I've ever seen are actually in a French computer game called "Aztec: Malediction au Coeur de la Cite d'Or". It may be worth asking the publishers, Cryo Interactive, for permission to use screenshots. Good luck with the novel! Simon Levack Author of the Aztec Mysteries Please take a few moments to visit my website at www.simonlevack.com -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of ANTHONY APPLEYARD Sent: 12 August 2004 18:12 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Images of Tenochtitlan -- apologies for any cross-posts --- Paul Anderson wrote: > Dear NAHUATL-L members, > I am preparing an informal presentation of images for the launch of a > novel I have written, whose central character is the 17th-century > Mexican polymath Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz. In a reading I would like > to do on that evening, I have Sor Juana writing about Quetzalcoatl, > Ehecatl and about the cylindrical temple at Tenochtitlan. > Would anyone happen to have an image you might allow me to use -- be > it a photograph, or an illustration -- of Tenochtitlan that includes > that particular temple? ... I am in a big forum called http://www.renderosity.com , which is about CGI art (= Computer Generated Imaging) (as in many modern sci-fi movies etc). Is there anyone in this group who might want to ask there if anyone has or can make CGI models of old Tenochtitlanian buildings and artefacts and gods etc? If so, could they be any use to make up pictures for the novel? From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Mon Aug 16 22:42:53 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:42:53 +0100 Subject: Nahuatl on the web In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://www.kokone.com.mx/leer/leyendas/sirena/22.html I found this page. It seems to be bilingual Spanish and a modern Nahuatl dialect. From idiez at MAC.COM Fri Aug 20 16:20:20 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:20:20 -0500 Subject: netlatolpepechtiliztli Message-ID: Molina gives "netlatolpepechtiliztli" as "theme". Does anybody have any ideas about this? Would it come from "nictlahtolpehpechtia", "I provide it with a word-saddle", or would is come from the "pepech" which gives the idea of "to affix something"? John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From carlossn at UI.BOE.ES Tue Aug 24 10:23:23 2004 From: carlossn at UI.BOE.ES (Carlos Santamarina) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:23:23 +0200 Subject: milaacatontli Message-ID: Hello everybody: Can anybody help me? I can't find de origin of the word milaacatontli, that is used by Fernando Alvarado Tezoz?moc (Cr?nica Mexicana 2001 cap.LXXXI: 349) as traduction of "serranillo" or little (despective) inhabitant of the mountains. The context is the assesination of Tzutzumatzin from Coyoacan (Tepanec tlatoani). Thank you all in any case. ----------------------------------- Hola a todos: Alvarado Tezoz?moc, en su Cr?nica Mexicana (2001 cap.LXXXI: 349), llama a Tzutzumatzin, tlatoani de Coyoacan "serranillo (milaacatontli)". "Serranillo" quiere decir habitante de la sierra o de los montes, pero en n?huatl, excepto la terminaci?n de diminutivo, no acierto a descomponer el t?rmino. Muchas gracias. Carlos Santamarina, Madrid. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Tue Aug 24 11:39:29 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:39:29 -0500 Subject: milaacatontli In-Reply-To: <412B171B.3070008@ui.boe.es> Message-ID: This actually looks like mil(li)-[a(tl)]-aca(tl)-ton-tli 'field'-('water')-'reed'-depreciative 'big' suffix-absolutive noun suffix If that is the correct parsing, the word suggests a plant name. "big field-(water)-reed" Michael On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Carlos Santamarina wrote: > Hello everybody: > > Can anybody help me? > > I can't find de origin of the word milaacatontli, that is used by > Fernando Alvarado Tezoz?moc (Cr?nica Mexicana 2001 cap.LXXXI: 349) as > traduction of "serranillo" or little (despective) inhabitant of the > mountains. The context is the assesination of Tzutzumatzin from Coyoacan > (Tepanec tlatoani). > > Thank you all in any case. > > ----------------------------------- > Hola a todos: > > Alvarado Tezoz?moc, en su Cr?nica Mexicana (2001 cap.LXXXI: 349), llama > a Tzutzumatzin, tlatoani de Coyoacan "serranillo (milaacatontli)". > "Serranillo" quiere decir habitante de la sierra o de los montes, pero > en n?huatl, excepto la terminaci?n de diminutivo, no acierto a > descomponer el t?rmino. > > Muchas gracias. > > Carlos Santamarina, Madrid. > "...and cicadas sing a rare and different tune..." R. Hunter From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Tue Aug 24 19:38:23 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:38:23 -0500 Subject: milaacatontli In-Reply-To: <412B171B.3070008@ui.boe.es> Message-ID: Joe has let me know that the root noun of "milaacatontli" is probably a misspelled milla:catl 'field hand'. Sounds right. BTW, milla:catl is milli + tla:catl 'field + 'person'. The t of tla:catl is assimilated. So, what you have Carlos is "big ol' field hand" in American English. Michael On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Carlos Santamarina wrote: > Hello everybody: > > Can anybody help me? > > I can't find de origin of the word milaacatontli, that is used by > Fernando Alvarado Tezoz?moc (Cr?nica Mexicana 2001 cap.LXXXI: 349) as > traduction of "serranillo" or little (despective) inhabitant of the > mountains. The context is the assesination of Tzutzumatzin from Coyoacan > (Tepanec tlatoani). > > Thank you all in any case. > > ----------------------------------- > Hola a todos: > > Alvarado Tezoz?moc, en su Cr?nica Mexicana (2001 cap.LXXXI: 349), llama > a Tzutzumatzin, tlatoani de Coyoacan "serranillo (milaacatontli)". > "Serranillo" quiere decir habitante de la sierra o de los montes, pero > en n?huatl, excepto la terminaci?n de diminutivo, no acierto a > descomponer el t?rmino. > > Muchas gracias. > > Carlos Santamarina, Madrid. > "...and cicadas sing a rare and different tune..." R. Hunter From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Wed Aug 25 15:27:10 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:27:10 -0500 Subject: milaacatontli Message-ID: From: Amapohuani at aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:38:48 EDT Subject: Re: milaacatontli To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Listeros: Sometimes transcriptions can be in error. If the translation was correct perhaps 'milecatontli' was the original intention. Ye ixquich. Barry From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Wed Aug 25 16:55:49 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:55:49 -0500 Subject: milaacatontli In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20040825102629.01fdbec0@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Barry, In fact, Molina lists 'milecatontli' "quin~onero que tiene parte en heredad" in his 1571 (n/s) dictionary. That caught me by surprise. Also: nomilecapo el que tiene heredad, o tierras junto alas mias On the 'millacatl' side, he has: * mi:lli tla:catl *** milla tlacatl. aldeano. 71m1-2. milla tlacatl. labrador o aldeano. 71m2-10. millacaicniuh =no. labrador como yo. 55m-12. millacatl. aldeano. 55m-00. millacatl. aldeano. 71m1-2. millacatl. labrador o aldeano. 71m2-10. millacatl. labrador rustico. 55m-12. millacatl. morador de campo. 55m-14. millacayotl. campesino. 55m-2. millatlacatl. labrador rustico. 55m-12. millatlacayotl. labran?a de tierra arte. 55m-12. nomillacapo. labrador como yo. 55m-12. tlacatl =milla. aldeano. 55m-00. All the best, Joe On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, John F. Schwaller wrote: > From: Amapohuani at aol.com > Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:38:48 EDT > > Sometimes transcriptions can be in error. If the translation was correct > perhaps 'milecatontli' was the original intention. > > Ye ixquich. > Barry > > > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Wed Aug 25 18:34:27 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:34:27 -0500 Subject: milaacatontli In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20040825102629.01fdbec0@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Barry, The only thing is, that double aa, it seems, would be an unlikely miswritten e. Anything's possible, quil, but an e seems unlikely. Poetry in motion, Michael On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, John F. Schwaller wrote: > From: Amapohuani at aol.com > Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:38:48 EDT > Subject: Re: milaacatontli > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > > Listeros: > > Sometimes transcriptions can be in error. If the translation was correct > perhaps 'milecatontli' was the original intention. > > Ye ixquich. > Barry > > > "...and cicadas sing a rare and different tune..." R. Hunter From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Wed Aug 25 23:42:27 2004 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:42:27 EDT Subject: milaacatontli Message-ID: Michael: I like the 'millacatontli' solution. It is just that - after years and years of seeing the incrediblly crative [to be kind and respectful] transformations of items in transcriptions when I have been able to compare them with the original manuscripts - I do not take anything for granted, doubles a's or anything else. Again, I like the 'millacatontli' possibility. Ye ixquich. Barry In a message dated 8/25/04 11:34:45 AM, mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU writes: > Barry, > The only thing is, that double aa, it seems, would be an unlikely > miswritten e. Anything's possible, quil, but an e seems unlikely. > Poetry in motion, > Michael > > On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, John F. Schwaller wrote: > > > From: Amapohuani at aol.com > > Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:38:48 EDT > > Subject: Re: milaacatontli > > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > > > > Listeros: > > > > Sometimes transcriptions can be in error. If the translation was correct > > perhaps 'milecatontli' was the original intention. > > > > Ye ixquich. > > Barry > > > > > > > > "...and cicadas sing > a rare and different tune..." > > R. Hunter > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM Thu Aug 26 15:05:53 2004 From: Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM (Irene Padilla) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:05:53 -0700 Subject: milaacatontli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: New to the list. Can someone tell me what "Ye ixquich." means? much appreciated. ~Irene Amapohuani at AOL.COM Sent by: Nahua language and culture discussion 08/25/04 04:42 PM Please respond to Nahua language and culture discussion To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU cc: Subject: Re: milaacatontli Michael: I like the 'millacatontli' solution. It is just that - after years and years of seeing the incrediblly crative [to be kind and respectful] transformations of items in transcriptions when I have been able to compare them with the original manuscripts - I do not take anything for granted, doubles a's or anything else. Again, I like the 'millacatontli' possibility. Ye ixquich. Barry In a message dated 8/25/04 11:34:45 AM, mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU writes: Barry, The only thing is, that double aa, it seems, would be an unlikely miswritten e. Anything's possible, quil, but an e seems unlikely. Poetry in motion, Michael On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, John F. Schwaller wrote: > From: Amapohuani at aol.com > Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:38:48 EDT > Subject: Re: milaacatontli > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > > Listeros: > > Sometimes transcriptions can be in error. If the translation was correct > perhaps 'milecatontli' was the original intention. > > Ye ixquich. > Barry > > > "...and cicadas sing a rare and different tune..." R. Hunter -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Thu Aug 26 16:35:44 2004 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:35:44 EDT Subject: milaacatontli Message-ID: Irene: I hope you find this list useful. I do not contribute much but the regular contributors like Michael are much to be admired for the many times they have offered explanations and examples for a host of questions. However, since I customarily use 'ye ixquich' I thought I should answer this one. If you stay with this list you will discover that people will offer various translations/interpretations depending on how they analyze the elements. One common translation is 'that is all.' One way to analyze the elements is to regard the 'ye' as functioning like an adverb of time meaning "already" and the 'ixquich' as a quantifier meaning "all [of a certain amount]." The pragmatic thrust is something along the lines of 'that is all I have to say" or 'enough already.' In texts of the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries you will often find 'ye ixquich' as indicating that a statement or speech is ending or has ended. Ye ixquich. Barry In a message dated 8/26/04 8:17:00 AM, Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM writes: > New to the list. ?Can someone tell me what ?"Ye ixquich." means? > much appreciated. > ~Irene ? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From no_doyohn at YAHOO.COM Thu Aug 26 19:48:16 2004 From: no_doyohn at YAHOO.COM (Stef) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:48:16 -0700 Subject: milaacatontli In-Reply-To: <1cd.29ae0262.2e5f6b60@aol.com> Message-ID: Hello to all, I?m also new to the list and I really like reading what people are posting here. My question is, which books an be recommended for learning Nahuatl? I have difficulties finding this kind of information. It would be kind if someone could help me. Ye ixquich, Stefanie Amapohuani at AOL.COM wrote: Irene: I hope you find this list useful. I do not contribute much but the regular contributors like Michael are much to be admired for the many times they have offered explanations and examples for a host of questions. However, since I customarily use 'ye ixquich' I thought I should answer this one. If you stay with this list you will discover that people will offer various translations/interpretations depending on how they analyze the elements. One common translation is 'that is all.' One way to analyze the elements is to regard the 'ye' as functioning like an adverb of time meaning "already" and the 'ixquich' as a quantifier meaning "all [of a certain amount]." The pragmatic thrust is something along the lines of 'that is all I have to say" or 'enough already.' In texts of the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries you will often find 'ye ixquich' as indicating that a statement or speech is ending or has ended. Ye ixquich. Barry In a message dated 8/26/04 8:17:00 AM, Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM writes: New to the list. Can someone tell me what "Ye ixquich." means? much appreciated. ~Irene --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Aug 26 20:27:49 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:27:49 -0500 Subject: milaacatontli In-Reply-To: <20040826194816.66741.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I would highly recommend as a beginner the Campbell-Karttunen grammar and workbook. Dr. Schwaller, on this list, can give you the details about getting copies. I've used these in my classes at I.U. and the students did very well. Michael On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Stef wrote: > Hello to all, > I?m also new to the list and I really like reading what people are posting here. > My question is, which books an be recommended for learning Nahuatl? I have difficulties finding this kind of information. It would be kind if someone could help me. > > Ye ixquich, > Stefanie > > Amapohuani at AOL.COM wrote: > Irene: > > I hope you find this list useful. I do not contribute much but the regular contributors like Michael are much to be admired for the many times they have offered explanations and examples for a host of questions. > > However, since I customarily use 'ye ixquich' I thought I should answer this one. If you stay with this list you will discover that people will offer various translations/interpretations depending on how they analyze the elements. One common translation is 'that is all.' One way to analyze the elements is to regard the 'ye' as functioning like an adverb of time meaning "already" and the 'ixquich' as a quantifier meaning "all [of a certain amount]." The pragmatic thrust is something along the lines of 'that is all I have to say" or 'enough already.' In texts of the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries you will often find 'ye ixquich' as indicating that a statement or speech is ending or has ended. > > Ye ixquich. > Barry > > In a message dated 8/26/04 8:17:00 AM, Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM writes: > > > New to the list. Can someone tell me what "Ye ixquich." means? > much appreciated. > ~Irene > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. "...and cicadas sing a rare and different tune..." R. Hunter From Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM Thu Aug 26 20:45:14 2004 From: Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM (Irene Padilla) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:45:14 -0700 Subject: milaacatontli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, I also would like to know how to get copies thank so much! ~Irene Michael Mccafferty Sent by: Nahua language and culture discussion 08/26/04 01:27 PM Please respond to Nahua language and culture discussion To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU cc: Subject: Re: milaacatontli I would highly recommend as a beginner the Campbell-Karttunen grammar and workbook. Dr. Schwaller, on this list, can give you the details about getting copies. I've used these in my classes at I.U. and the students did very well. Michael On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Stef wrote: > Hello to all, > I?m also new to the list and I really like reading what people are posting here. > My question is, which books an be recommended for learning Nahuatl? I have difficulties finding this kind of information. It would be kind if someone could help me. > > Ye ixquich, > Stefanie > > Amapohuani at AOL.COM wrote: > Irene: > > I hope you find this list useful. I do not contribute much but the regular contributors like Michael are much to be admired for the many times they have offered explanations and examples for a host of questions. > > However, since I customarily use 'ye ixquich' I thought I should answer this one. If you stay with this list you will discover that people will offer various translations/interpretations depending on how they analyze the elements. One common translation is 'that is all.' One way to analyze the elements is to regard the 'ye' as functioning like an adverb of time meaning "already" and the 'ixquich' as a quantifier meaning "all [of a certain amount]." The pragmatic thrust is something along the lines of 'that is all I have to say" or 'enough already.' In texts of the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries you will often find 'ye ixquich' as indicating that a statement or speech is ending or has ended. > > Ye ixquich. > Barry > > In a message dated 8/26/04 8:17:00 AM, Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM writes: > > > New to the list. Can someone tell me what "Ye ixquich." means? > much appreciated. > ~Irene > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. "...and cicadas sing a rare and different tune..." R. Hunter -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Thu Aug 26 21:32:23 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:32:23 -0500 Subject: Books on Nahuatl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 03:27 PM 8/26/2004, you wrote: >would highly recommend as a beginner the Campbell-Karttunen grammar and >workbook. Dr. Schwaller, on this list, can give you the details about >getting copies. I've used these in my classes at I.U. and the students did >very well. For further information see the following http://www.mrs.umn.edu/academic/history/Nahuatl/hotlinks.htm And for more books on Nahuatl see Ricardo Salvador's web page: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/nahuatl.html John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 27 02:25:16 2004 From: chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM (chelo dona) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:25:16 -0300 Subject: milaacatontli - ye izquich Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Fri Aug 27 21:20:39 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:20:39 -0600 Subject: Query Message-ID: Answers to any of these questions would be greatly appreciated: 1. What might be the equivalent a la Karttunen of a word written around AD 1600 as quitztotica where the first t *might* be an extranious mark or accent over the preceding i, but could also really be a t. 2. could Mex. a:xcan iuhquin be used to mean something like "which is the same as [what we call] Mexico today"? and 3. When was "Mexico" (or at least the abbreviation, Mex.) first used to designate either the Valley of Mexico and--perhaps later--for New Spain as a whole (or at least territory beyond the Valley of Mexico) by folks who lived there? From Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM Mon Aug 30 13:59:03 2004 From: Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM (Irene Padilla) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 06:59:03 -0700 Subject: Translation/pronunciation Message-ID: Can anyone give me the correct pronunciation/translation for Rat? My daughter is doing a project for Elementary and she needs this info? thank you ~Irene -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From institute at CSUMB.EDU Mon Aug 30 14:00:28 2004 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 07:00:28 -0700 Subject: Translation/pronunciation Message-ID: Thank you for your message. We will respond to your communique as soon as it is feasible to do so. If you have an urgent matter, please contact Lilly Martinez by voice mail at 831-582-4364. From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 30 20:24:34 2004 From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:24:34 -0400 Subject: Translation/pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Irene: > Can anyone give me the correct pronunciation/translation > for Rat? My daughter is doing a project for Elementary and > she needs this info? I believe the word you're looking for is quimichin. I believe it would be pronouced "kee-MEE-cheen," with capitalization indicating the stressed syllable. Interestingly, this word is also used as a diminutive, so, based upon context, one might translate it as "small" or "little." Hope this helps. -Geoff From micc2 at COX.NET Mon Aug 30 21:43:37 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:43:37 -0700 Subject: Translation/pronunciation In-Reply-To: <9904568204083013246e91ac6c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: isn't quimichin a mouse???? Geoff Davis wrote: >Hi, Irene: > > > >>Can anyone give me the correct pronunciation/translation >>for Rat? My daughter is doing a project for Elementary and >>she needs this info? >> >> > >I believe the word you're looking for is quimichin. I believe it >would be pronouced "kee-MEE-cheen," with capitalization >indicating the stressed syllable. > >Interestingly, this word is also used as a diminutive, so, >based upon context, one might translate it as "small" or >"little." > >Hope this helps. > >-Geoff > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 30 22:07:13 2004 From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:07:13 -0400 Subject: Translation/pronunciation In-Reply-To: <41339F89.908@cox.net> Message-ID: > isn't quimichin a mouse???? Yep. But its the closest I could find. It could be my overall lack of experience, but, I was able to find several Nahuatl tutorials on the 'net that seem to indicate quimichin could also be translated as "rat". If there is a better word, please do let me know. I'm still very much the newbie. -Geoff From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Mon Aug 30 22:25:38 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:25:38 -0500 Subject: Translation/pronunciation In-Reply-To: <9904568204083015073d6f7258@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Huezacotl is the kangaroo rat. I don't know the European rat's word in Nahuatl. Michael On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Geoff Davis wrote: > > isn't quimichin a mouse???? > > Yep. But its the closest I could find. It could be my overall lack > of experience, but, I was able to find several Nahuatl tutorials on > the 'net that seem to indicate quimichin could also be translated > as "rat". If there is a better word, please do let me know. I'm > still very much the newbie. > > -Geoff > > > From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Mon Aug 30 22:53:45 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:53:45 -0500 Subject: Translation/pronunciation In-Reply-To: <9904568204083015073d6f7258@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In the modern dialects that I'm familiar with, 'quimichin' is used for "mouse" and 'quimich-ilama(tl)' is used for "rat". (ilamatl = old woman) This is in villages where the folk-zoology classifies 'raton' "mouse" and 'rata' "rat" as the male and female of the same species. My recollection is that Molina didn't really give a word for "rat". He did have: atozan. cierto animalejo como rata. chachahuatl. liron, o cierto animal como rata. tozan. topo, animal o rata. [gopher] cuitlapilhueyac. raton. huezacotl. raton. quimichin. raton. quimichpil. ratoncillo. quimichton. ratoncillo. tetzauhquimichin. sorze, raton pequen~o. Joe On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Geoff Davis wrote: > > isn't quimichin a mouse???? > > Yep. But its the closest I could find. It could be my overall lack > of experience, but, I was able to find several Nahuatl tutorials on > the 'net that seem to indicate quimichin could also be translated > as "rat". If there is a better word, please do let me know. I'm > still very much the newbie. > > -Geoff > > > From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 30 23:47:54 2004 From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:47:54 -0400 Subject: Translation/pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > In the modern dialects that I'm familiar with, 'quimichin' is used for > "mouse" and 'quimich-ilama(tl)' is used for "rat". (ilamatl = old woman) > This is in villages where the folk-zoology classifies 'raton' "mouse" and > 'rata' "rat" as the male and female of the same species. Is this an example of a pun or play on words, perhaps, with quimich- acting as both a dimunitive ("little" old lady) as well as a hint that the "old lady" in question is indeed a rodent? > My recollection is that Molina didn't really give a word for "rat". He > did have: [-snip-snip-] Thanks for the list. I learn new things every day. :D -Geoff From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Tue Aug 31 04:11:22 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:11:22 -0500 Subject: Translation/pronunciation In-Reply-To: <9904568204083016475f045512@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > > In the modern dialects that I'm familiar with, 'quimichin' is used for > > "mouse" and 'quimich-ilama(tl)' is used for "rat". (ilamatl = old woman) > > This is in villages where the folk-zoology classifies 'raton' "mouse" and > > 'rata' "rat" as the male and female of the same species. > > Is this an example of a pun or play on words, perhaps, with quimich- > acting as both a dimunitive ("little" old lady) as well as a hint that the "old > lady" in question is indeed a rodent? > I don't think so -- in Tepoztlan 'piolama' is a hen -- a mature female chicken. Geoff, When you said that 'quimichin' might indicate "diminutive" or "small", depending on context, I reflected on my internalized semantics... and, though the *referent* is small, I couldn't dredge up a feeling that Nahuatl seemed to lean on that for expressing the idea of "smallness". So I made a list of all the 'quimich-' occurrences in the Florentine Codex. The numbers are related to their alphabetical order, but I'll move the most relevant ones to the beginning of the list, sometimes with a comment: *** I doubt that the two following items have anything to do with the smallness of the mouse itself: quexilquimichcuitlatl** 10. *quexilquimichcuitlatl*. small bit of filth about the groin (b.10 f.8 p.138b). quexilquiquimichcuitlatl** 11. *quexilquiquimichcuitlatl*. small bits of filth about the groin (b.10 f.8 p.138b). *** This one looks like a hit for your theory: quimichetl** 14. *quimichetl*: frisoles de ratones son negros i menudos. mouse bean mouse beans; they are black and small (b.11 f.27 p.285). *** Here 'quimichnacaztic' is associated with "tiny" -- "like a mouse's ear". Well, I will admit that the ear of a mouse is smaller than that of a goat, a fox, an armadillo, etc.,... quimichnacaztic** 47. in ticehuac in xoxouhqui, in patzahuac, in chilacachtic, in xamanqui, in cacaltic, in *quimichnacaztic*, quicenneloa, quicepanneloa, quimotlaltia, itlan caquia, quicepanmictia,. the whitish, the fresh cacao beans he intermixes, mingles, throws in, introduces, ruins with the shrunken, the chili-seed-like, the broken, the hollow, the tiny. (b.10 f.4 p.65). *** 'quimichtetl' is used to refer to a "small black bean", so that's another point scored for the association between 'quimichin' and "smallness". quimichtetl** 56. ipanitia, in cualli etl in amanehua, in chipactic, in tetzcaltic, in tolontic, in telolotic, in chipaccaltic, in huel quizqui tonacayotl, in mitoa huel maquiztli, huel chalchihuitl, huel teoxihuitl, in tlahtiloni, in toptemaloni, in petlacaltemaloni, in cuezcomatemaloni, in ecoztli, in echichilli paletl, in iztaquetl, in epitzactli, in xaltetl, in *quimichtetl*, in ecuicuilli, in cuicuiletl, in ecoztapayolli, in ayecotli, in cuahuecoc.. separately, in one place, he prices, sorts, selects the good beans, the new crop --the clean, the smooth, the round, the pellet-like, the very clean; the well-formed food, the so-called good bracelet, good green stone, good turquoise; that worth being stored, worth being put away in the bag, in the reed box, in the storage bin; the yellow beans, red beans, brown beans, white beans, small beans, whitish beans, small black beans, pinto beans, spotted beans, round yellow beans, large black beans, wild beans. (b.10 f.4 p.66). So what do our fellow listeros think? Joe ==================== aquimichin** 1. *aquimichin*:. water mouse (b.11 f.2 p.18). calquimichi** 2. in otomi. quicua in epatl, quicua in coatl, quicua in mototli, in cuauhquimichi in tlalquimichi, in *calquimichi*:. the otomi ate skunks, serpents, squirrels, forest mice, field mice, house mice. (b.10 f.11 p.180). calquimichin** 3. *calquimichin*:. house mouse (b.11 f.2 p.18). cuauhquimichi** 4. in otomi. quicua in epatl, quicua in coatl, quicua in mototli, in *cuauhquimichi* in tlalquimichi, in calquimichi:. the otomi ate skunks, serpents, squirrels, forest mice, field mice, house mice. (b.10 f.11 p.180). cuauhquimichin** 5. *cuauhquimichin*:. forest mouse (b.11 f.2 p.18). moquimichcuepti** 6. in ihcuac, i, mochihua: huel motenmatia in ootztin, tlahueimatia, momauhtiaya: ma nelli *moquimichcuepti*, ma quiquimichtinmocuepti, in impilhuan.. when this came to pass, women with child feared evil; they thought it portentous; they were terrified [lest], perchance, their [unborn] children might be changed into mice; each of their children might turn into a mouse. (b.7 f.1 p.8). moquimichpahuia** 7. inic maci quimichin: mizton, gaton quinmictia: momonhuia, motlapehuia: *moquimichpahuia*.. thus is a mouse caught: the cat kills it; it is snared, it is trapped; it is poisoned with quimichpatli. (b.11 f.2 p.18). niquimichpahuia** 8. *niquimichpahuia*.. I take quimichpatli. (b.11 f.13 p.131). niquimichti** 9. ic mitoa in tlatolli *niquimichti*: quitoznequi, nitetlanencati:. hence is said the saying, "I mouse him"; that is to say, "I eavesdrop on one." (b.11 f.2 p.17). quimichcuani** 12. cincuani, nochcuani, *quimichcuani*, nacacuani:. it is an eater of ripe maize ears, of tunas, of mice, of flesh. (b.11 f.5 p.43). 13. *quimichcuani*, cuetzpalcuani, zacatzilcuani:. it is an eater of mice, of lizards, of ?acacilin [birds]. (b.11 f.5 p.45). quimichi** 15. in tetlanochili *quimichi* tenxochitl, ehcatlatole, tecoconahuiani, xochihua, tetenxochioyani, tetenxochitzotzonanii tepahuiani:. the procurer [is like a] mouse; [he is] a beguiler, a windbag, an enticer, a seducer, a seducer with words, a wheedler, a tempter. (b.10 f.2 p.37). 16. in itech ca in itech mochihua *quimichi*, tochi. etc.. they are on, they form on mice, rabbits, etc. (b.11 f.10 p.99). 17. ahzo motlatlaloa in *quimichi*, in anozo tlein yolcatl itech. perhaps the mice, or whatever creature the worm lives on, flees. (b.11 f.10 p.99). 18. in iuh mitoa, in tecuani, in coyotl, oztoc ichan in tochin, in mazatl, cuauhtla ichan, in michi atlan ichan, in coatl, in *quimichi* tlacoyocco ichan.. so it is said: the home of the wild beast, of the coyote, is in the cave; the forest is the home of the rabbit, of the deer; the home of the fish is in the water; the home of the serpent, of the mouse, is in the hole. (b.11 f.26 p.275). *** #19 was a spurious hit... not related to mouse... quimichin** 20. inic neci in *quimichin* quicoyonia in chiquihuitl, anozo tecomatl, anozo xicalli quitencuacuaya.. in order for it to be evident, the mouse made a hole in a large basket, or gnawed the edges of gourd dishes or bowls. (b.5 f.3 p.191). 21. ihuan nohuian tlacocoyonia in *quimichin*,. and everywhere the mouse made holes. (b.5 f.3 p.191). 22. inic cempoalli on chicuei capitulo, itechpa tlatoa in *quimichin* itentlacahual.. twenty-eighth chapter, which telleth of the gnawed leavings of a mouse. (b.5 f.3 p.193). 23. in *quimichin* in zazo tlein quicua: ayac huel quicualiaya,. whatsoever a mouse had gnawed none might eat. (b.5 f.3 p.193). 24. quilmach in aquin quicualia in quicahua *quimichin*, itech tlatlamiz,. it was said that he who ate what a mouse had left would be falsely accused. (b.5 f.3 p.193). 25. ca mitoa: oquichtequico in *quimichin*, oquichtacacua.. for it was said that the mouse came to steal it; he came to eat it in stealth. (b.5 f.3 p.193). 26. ipampa i, in ayac huel quicualiaya in itentlacahual *quimichin*.. wherefore no one might eat gnawed leavings of a mouse. (b.5 f.3 p.193). 27. no iuh ipan mitoz: in aquin quicua itentlacahual *quimichin*, itech tlatlamiz, in zazo tlein tlatolli, anozo in tlein polihuiz.. likewise it was said of it that he who ate the gnawed leavings of a mouse would be accused falsely of some sort of story or of that which might be missing. (b.5 f.3 p.193). 28. in ihcuac huetzi intlan pipiltotonti: in tenanhuan itlacoyocco contlaza in *quimichin*, anoce impilhuan, quimilhuia: itlacoyocco xictlali in quimichin:. when the teeth of small children dropped out, the mothers cast them into a mouse-hole, or they said to their children: "place it in the mouse-hole." (b.5 f.3 p.195). 29. in ihcuac huetzi intlan pipiltotonti: in tenanhuan itlacoyocco contlaza in quimichin, anoce impilhuan, quimilhuia: itlacoyocco xictlali in *quimichin*:. when the teeth of small children dropped out, the mothers cast them into a mouse-hole, or they said to their children: "place it in the mouse-hole." (b.5 f.3 p.195). 30. auh in itlacual yehuatl in *quimichin*, in huezacotl, in at cana ipan quiza, totzintli:. and its food is mice, kangaroo rats, and small birds, if one of them somewhere passes by it. (b.11 f.1 p.9). 31. in iuhqui tozan, in iuhqui *quimichin*, tlallan ichan: zan huel no iuhqui.. like the gopher, like the mouse, its burrow is underground, just the same [as theirs]. (b.11 f.2 p.11). 32. in itlacual: *quimichin*, nextecuilin, tlalomitl:. its food is mice, nextecuillin worms, tlalomitl worms. (b.11 f.2 p.13). 33. inic chicome parrapho: itechpa tlatoa in yoyolitoton, in iuhqui yehuatl, *quimichin*: ihuan in oc cequintin, zan no iuhque. seventh paragraph, which telleth of the small animals, like the mouse, and of others like it. (b.11 f.2 p.17). 34. *quimichin*:. mouse (b.11 f.2 p.17). 35. inin *quimichin*: nextontli, chichintontli, poyactontli, yayamazpil, yayamaztontli:. this mouse is a little ashen, blackish, a little dark, rather yielding, a little soft. (b.11 f.2 p.17). 36. ic no motocayotia *quimichin*: in tetlahnenqui, ipampa in manel canin: cacalaqui ca concaqui, ca concui in tlatolli: ihuan ontlanemilia,. hence also the eavesdropper is also called mouse, because no matter where, he continually enters the house, he hears and acquires the information and inquires into one's affairs. (b.11 f.2 p.17). 37. inic maci *quimichin*: mizton, gaton quinmictia: momonhuia, motlapehuia: moquimichpahuia.. thus is a mouse caught: the cat kills it; it is snared, it is trapped; it is poisoned with quimichpatli. (b.11 f.2 p.18). 38. ihuan itoca atozan, zan ye yeh in *quimichin*:. also its name is water gopher. it is the same as the mouse. (b.11 f.2 p.18). 39. in cuauhtla nemi *quimichin*, huiac, tomahuac.. it is a mouse which lives in the forest; it is long, thick. (b.11 f.2 p.18). 40. in milpan in ixtlahuacan nemi, *quimichin*.. it is a mouse which lives in the maize fields, on the plains. (b.11 f.2 p.18). 41. in techan nemi *quimichin*.. it is a mouse which lives in one's house. (b.11 f.2 p.18). 42. zan ye no yeh in *quimichin*, (tepiton. ololtontli).. it is the same as the mouse, [small, small and round]. (b.11 f.2 p.18). 43. zan ye no yeh in *quimichin*).. [it is the same as the mouse.] (b.11 f.2 p.18). 44. inic mitoa tetzompa, in otlacua in oixhuic: cuauhtitech, metitech quinzozo in imalhuan: in *quimichin*, in cuetzpalin.. it is called tetzompa because, when it has fed, when it is satiated, it impales its catch --mice, lizards --on trees [and] on maguey leaves. (b.11 f.5 p.45). 45. *quimichin*, cuetzpalin in quicua,. it eats mich [and] lizards. (b.11 f.5 p.46). quimichme** 46. in tonalco, *quimichme*, tapayaxti, yolcame in quincua.. in the winter it eats mice, salamanders, [small] animals. (b.11 f.1 p.9). quimichpatli** 48. quinamaca tlapalhuatzalli, tlacuahuac tlapalli, tlapalnextli, nocheztli, zacatlaxcalli texotli, tetizatl, tlilli, tlacehuilli, tlalxocotl, axi, tzictli, tlaaxnelolli, tlahuitl, tlilxochitl, mecaxochitl huei nacaztli, teonacaztli, tlacuatl, tlacuacuitlapilli, xiuhtotonti tlanelhuatotonti, chapopohtli, tecopalli, copalli, nacazcolotl, *quimichpatli*, matlalin, tlaliyac, apetztli.. he sells dried pigment, bars of cochineal pigment, cochineal mixed with chalk or flour, [pure] cochineal; light yellow, sky blue pigment; chalk, lampblack, dark blue pigment; alum, axin, chicle, bitumen-mixed chicle, red ochre; tlilsochitl, mecaxochitl, uei nacaztli, teonacaztli; opossum, opossum tail; small herbs, small roots; bitumen, resin, copal; nacazcolotl, quimichpatli; a blue coloring made from blossoms; sulfate of copper, iron pyrites. (b.10 f.4 p.77). 49. ic mopotonia in tlanechicolli, tecomaxo coyoxochitl *quimichpatli*, tzitzicaztli iyetl xoxouhqui,. if it worsens, a poultice of assorted [herbs] is applied; tecomaxochitl, coyoxochitl, quimichpatli, tzitzicaztli, iietl, xoxouhqui. (b.10 f.9 p.149). 50. *quimichpatli*,. quimichpatli (b.11 f.13 p.131). 51. inic mitoa *quimichpatli*: in quiquimichti, tlacualli quin nelhuia, intla quicua ic mimiqui, tlatlacocotoca in incuitlaxcol.. it is called quimichpatli for this reason: it is food [for] mice, because, it is asserted, if they eat it, they die of it; their intestines break up. (b.11 f.13 p.131). quimichpil** 52. ma *quimichpil* oconatlic.. the mouselet may have drunk it (b.6 f.18 p.227). 53. ic ihcuac quitoa. ma *quimichpil* oconatlic.. then at that time they say: "the mouselet may have drunk it." (b.6 f.18 p.227). *** #54 and #55 were spurious hits quimichtizque** 57. ipampa intla oncochizque, quilmach quiquimichtin mocuepazque, *quimichtizque*.. because if they were to sleep--it was thought--they would turn into mice; they would become mice. (b.7 f.2 p.27). quimichtlaolli** 58. itla quitlaza in *quimichtlaolli*, in cuezcontlaolli, in tlaolpalaxtli, in tlaliyac, in cocoyac, in quipiyac,. he tosses, he casts into it the mouse-gnawed maize, the maize shelled in the bin, the spoiled maize, the fetid, the bad, the stinking. (b.10 f.4 p.66). quiquimichti** 59. quilmach: intla zan cali yez: amo huel macizque in *quiquimichti*, quilmach zan quimonihuatica.. it was thought that if it were in the house, they could not be caught; it was said that it would warn them. (b.5 f.3 p.191). 60. inic cempoalli omome capitulo, intechpa tlatoa in *quiquimichti*.. twenty-second chapter, which telleth of mice. (b.5 f.3 p.191). 61. quitoaya in ye huecauh, quilmach in *quiquimichti* huel quimati, in aquin momemecatia: in ahzo telpochtli, anozo cihuatl.. they said, in times past, that it was thought that mice knew well him who had a paramour, whether a young man or a woman. (b.5 f.3 p.191). 62. inic mitoa quimichpatli: in *quiquimichti*, tlacualli quin nelhuia, intla quicua ic mimiqui, tlatlacocotoca in incuitlaxcol.. it is called quimichpatli for this reason: it is food [for] mice, because, it is asserted, if they eat it, they die of it; their intestines break up. (b.11 f.13 p.131). quiquimichtin** 63. ic matlactli capitulo, oncan mitoa: in tetzahuitl inic motetzahuiaya, in intechpa azcame, anozo cuecueya: ihuan in *quiquimichtin*.. tenth chapter, in which is related the omen, by which a portent was drawn, of ants or frogs, and mice. (b.5 f.2 p.173). 64. ihuan in yehuatl texolotl: in ihcuac quimaci, in quinmohhuia *quiquimichtin*: in texolotl quiyahuac quihuallaza,. and [concerning] this pestle: when they caught, trapped mice, they cast the pestle out the doorway. (b.5 f.3 p.191). 65. ipampa intla oncochizque, quilmach *quiquimichtin* mocuepazque, quimichtizque.. because if they were to sleep--it was thought--they would turn into mice; they would become mice. (b.7 f.2 p.27). quiquimichtinmocuepti** 66. in ihcuac, i, mochihua: huel motenmatia in ootztin, tlahueimatia, momauhtiaya: ma nelli moquimichcuepti, ma *quiquimichtinmocuepti*, in impilhuan.. when this came to pass, women with child feared evil; they thought it portentous; they were terrified [lest], perchance, their [unborn] children might be changed into mice; each of their children might turn into a mouse. (b.7 f.1 p.8). tetzauhquimichin** 67. no iuhqui in *tetzauhquimichin*, anozo tetlaquechililli. pl' chililti: mochi yehuan quintlaliaya, quintetoquiliaya, in atlaca, in tecocoliani:. so also the ominous mice, perhaps [as reported in] tales, all these, the inhuman people, the enemies, placed and buried. (b.5 f.2 p.173). tiquihquimichintinemi** 68. amo no cencan moyolic in tinenemiz, amo no tiquinhuihuilanaz in mocxi: inic amo mopan mitoz tihuilaxpol tixocotexpol, teticapol: inic amo mopan mitoz titlatlaztiminitinemi, *tiquihquimichintinemi*: inic amo no ticamanalli timocuepaz, titoloz: timimixiuhcanehnemi,. neither art thou to travel very slowly, nor to drag thy feet, lest it be said of thee that thou art a dragger, thou art a lout, thou art a fat one; lest it be said of thee that thou goest waddling, that thou goest like a mouse; also lest thou turn thyself into an object of derision, incline thy head, travel like a pregnant woman. (b.6 f.10 p.121). tlalquimichi** 69. in otomi. quicua in epatl, quicua in coatl, quicua in mototli, in cuauhquimichi in *tlalquimichi*, in calquimichi:. the otomi ate skunks, serpents, squirrels, forest mice, field mice, house mice. (b.10 f.11 p.180). tlalquimichin** 70. *tlalquimichin*:. field mouse (b.11 f.2 p.18). From Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM Tue Aug 31 13:40:51 2004 From: Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM (Irene Padilla) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 06:40:51 -0700 Subject: Translation/pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to all for the replies ~Irene "r. joe campbell" Sent by: Nahua language and culture discussion 08/30/04 03:53 PM Please respond to Nahua language and culture discussion To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU cc: Subject: Re: Translation/pronunciation In the modern dialects that I'm familiar with, 'quimichin' is used for "mouse" and 'quimich-ilama(tl)' is used for "rat". (ilamatl = old woman) This is in villages where the folk-zoology classifies 'raton' "mouse" and 'rata' "rat" as the male and female of the same species. My recollection is that Molina didn't really give a word for "rat". He did have: atozan. cierto animalejo como rata. chachahuatl. liron, o cierto animal como rata. tozan. topo, animal o rata. [gopher] cuitlapilhueyac. raton. huezacotl. raton. quimichin. raton. quimichpil. ratoncillo. quimichton. ratoncillo. tetzauhquimichin. sorze, raton pequen~o. Joe On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Geoff Davis wrote: > > isn't quimichin a mouse???? > > Yep. But its the closest I could find. It could be my overall lack > of experience, but, I was able to find several Nahuatl tutorials on > the 'net that seem to indicate quimichin could also be translated > as "rat". If there is a better word, please do let me know. I'm > still very much the newbie. > > -Geoff > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carlossn at UI.BOE.ES Tue Aug 31 18:29:24 2004 From: carlossn at UI.BOE.ES (Carlos Santamarina) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:29:24 +0200 Subject: Otonteuctli icuic Message-ID: A sentence from the Florentine Codex. There's no spanish version, because on the left the page is blank. The context is about Otontecutli, the otomi god. We have to know that Cuecuex is the tepanec name of the same god, and otomi and tepanec are from the same ethnic family: ?Otontecutli icujc [...] Nitepanecatl aiacuecuexi niquetzalcoatly, aia cuecuexi... ? (Florentine Codex book 2?, appendix: 141) "Otontecutli's song I am tepaneca ...................... I am Quetzalcoatl (?), ...................." Thank you all. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Tue Aug 31 19:19:51 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:19:51 -0500 Subject: Otonteuctli icuic In-Reply-To: <4134C384.5040008@ui.boe.es> Message-ID: Carlos, Without being overly familiar with the Cantares, it seems most likely aia is a vocalic-melodic element without regular semantic value. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From micc2 at COX.NET Tue Aug 31 19:21:48 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:21:48 -0700 Subject: Otonteuctli icuic In-Reply-To: <4134C384.5040008@ui.boe.es> Message-ID: I just received this and I am interested in what thread it belongs to. In am very interested in the Otomanguean language family. thanks! Carlos Santamarina wrote: > A sentence from the Florentine Codex. There's no spanish version, > because on the left the page is blank. The context is about > Otontecutli, the otomi god. > We have to know that Cuecuex is the tepanec name of the same god, and > otomi and tepanec are from the same ethnic family: > > ?Otontecutli icujc > [...] > Nitepanecatl aiacuecuexi niquetzalcoatly, aia cuecuexi... ? > (Florentine Codex book 2?, appendix: 141) > > "Otontecutli's song > I am tepaneca ...................... I am Quetzalcoatl (?), > ...................." > > > Thank you all. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: