From david at JEDDYSHAW.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Dec 7 20:57:14 2004 From: david at JEDDYSHAW.FREESERVE.CO.UK (David Eddyshaw) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:57:14 +0000 Subject: noun incorporation in Nahuatl Message-ID: Quite often in general linguistic discussions of polysynthesis I've come across the assertion that incorporated objects in Nahuatl can be referential (ie. are active in discourse, can be picked up by pronouns etc). For the life of me I can't see this; as far as I can see in fact, for a noun stem to be incorporated into a verb as object it actually must _not_ refer to any particular entity. Am I just wrong about this? Is it something in which Classical Nahuatl differs from some modern dialects? David Eddyshaw From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Tue Dec 7 21:18:05 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 16:18:05 -0500 Subject: noun incorporation in Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <925EB4F7-4892-11D9-9D50-000A95803010@jeddyshaw.freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: As I understand it, incorporated object nouns are generic, while unincorporated ones are specific. For instance, nicchihua cactli I am making a specific shoe/shoes' vs. nicacchihua 'I am engaged in shoemaking" On Dec 7, 2004, at 3:57 PM, David Eddyshaw wrote: > Quite often in general linguistic discussions of polysynthesis I've > come across the assertion that incorporated objects in Nahuatl can be > referential (ie. are active in discourse, can be picked up by pronouns > etc). For the life of me I can't see this; as far as I can see in fact, > for a noun stem to be incorporated into a verb as object it actually > must _not_ refer to any particular entity. Am I just wrong about this? > Is it something in which Classical Nahuatl differs from some modern > dialects? > > David Eddyshaw > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Tue Dec 7 21:22:53 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 16:22:53 -0500 Subject: noun incorporation in Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <925EB4F7-4892-11D9-9D50-000A95803010@jeddyshaw.freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: David: Are you referring to items such as Classical "cacchihua" (cac[tli]-chihua) 'he/she makes shoes'? Yes, in this kind of construction the general rather than the specific is the referent. I *think* I saw one time in the Florentine codex what appeared to be a specific referent for such a construction, but maybe not. :) For the specific, in Classical, you must say "cactli quichihua" or "quichihua cactli" = "he is making the shoes". In modern dialects, I imagine you might see something like "quinchihua cactin". On Tue, 7 Dec 2004, David Eddyshaw wrote: > Quite often in general linguistic discussions of polysynthesis I've > come across the assertion that incorporated objects in Nahuatl can be > referential (ie. are active in discourse, can be picked up by pronouns > etc). For the life of me I can't see this; as far as I can see in fact, > for a noun stem to be incorporated into a verb as object it actually > must _not_ refer to any particular entity. Am I just wrong about this? > Is it something in which Classical Nahuatl differs from some modern > dialects? > > David Eddyshaw > > > From heike.boedeker at NETCOLOGNE.DE Tue Dec 7 21:46:31 2004 From: heike.boedeker at NETCOLOGNE.DE (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Heike_B=F6deker?=) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 22:46:31 +0100 Subject: noun incorporation in Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <925EB4F7-4892-11D9-9D50-000A95803010@jeddyshaw.freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: Dear David, > Quite often in general linguistic discussions of polysynthesis I've > come across the assertion that incorporated objects in Nahuatl can > be referential Just out of curiosity: who did write that where and when? >From the literature I have read I only can remember that incorporated nouns were analyzed as unspecific, generic etc. (ok, one might call that an unspecific, generic etc. reference), which seemingly holds for most languages, not just Nahuatl. All the best, Heike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 265.4.7 - Release Date: 07.12.04 From david at JEDDYSHAW.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Dec 7 23:02:27 2004 From: david at JEDDYSHAW.FREESERVE.CO.UK (David Eddyshaw) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 23:02:27 +0000 Subject: noun incorporation in Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <41B632C7.28880.165317@localhost> Message-ID: Heike Bödeker writes: > Dear David, > > > Quite often in general linguistic discussions of polysynthesis I've > > come across the assertion that incorporated objects in Nahuatl can > > be referential > > Just out of curiosity: who did write that where and when? > eg in passing in Mark Baker's stuff about his (in my deeply expert ;-) view) highly implausible "polysynthesis parameter". The only (alleged) actual example I've found comes from Jeff McSwain, SW journal of Linguistics, Vol 17, No. 2 (1998), in SE Puebla Nahuatl: Onikitak tlakemetl, gika nitlakekoas which he glosses "I saw some clothes, so I'm going to buy the clothes" which I must say doesn't strike me as very convincing, inasmuch as I can see no reason not to render the last word along the lines of "I'll go clothes-buying" I brought this up because it seems so much at variance with the whole plan of Nahuatl grammar; my reading of Andrews and Launey's grammars seems basicallly to rule out particular reference for incorporated objects, but I'm no sort of expert on Nahuatl so thought it could just be my ignorance. There certainly do exist languages, however, in which incorporated noun objects can have particular reference, eg. the Australian language Mayali. THere's a whole literature about diffent sorts of noun incorporation in this regard (as I expect you know better than I do) Thanks for the reply David From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Thu Dec 9 19:05:11 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 12:05:11 -0700 Subject: Translation Message-ID: Would anyone like to try his/her hand at: "Ma tihuiya:n o:mpa in Teo:tli:xco ayocmo: i:npan tlahuiz, to:naz, tlaneciz." "Would something like, "Let us go to Teotlixco by torchlight, before it is light, before it dawns!" capture it? Or would any of you recommend something different? I'm particularly curious whether one can distinguish between "to Teotlixco" from "from Teotlixco" in this. Could it be either one? And, finally, what is the etymology of Teotlixco? Is there possibly an elided vowel, e.g. Teo-atlixco > Teotlixco? Thanks. Richley From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Thu Dec 9 19:54:46 2004 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:54:46 -0500 Subject: Translation Message-ID: Richely, Are you sure you can get "torch light" out of that sentence? I assume you are translating the segment "i:npan tlahuiz" as "by torchlight." But it seems to me that the tlahuiz is probably another verb (the future of tlahuia) that corresponds to the following two verbs. All of them, "tlahuiz," "tonaz," and "tlaneciz" can mean "it will become light" or "it will dawn." I haven't checked on this, but my first impression is that what you have transcribed as "i:npan" might be understood better in conjunction with "ayocmo:" to mean something like "before the time at which". With regard to the issue of "to" or "from," it seems to me that your translation is correct. The use of the verb "to go" as opposed to something like "to leave" or "to go out" is consistent with the "ompa" as referring toward the place of Teotlixco as a place that is away from the speaker. So, if I am right (and the could be a very big "if"), then the sentence might read: "Let us go there to Teotlixco before it becomes light, before it dawns, before it lightens." Galen Richley Crapo wrote: > Would anyone like to try his/her hand at: > > "Ma tihuiya:n o:mpa in Teo:tli:xco ayocmo: i:npan tlahuiz, to:naz, tlaneciz." > > "Would something like, "Let us go to Teotlixco by torchlight, before it is light, before it dawns!" capture it? Or would any of you recommend something different? > > I'm particularly curious whether one can distinguish between "to Teotlixco" from "from Teotlixco" in this. Could it be either one? > > And, finally, what is the etymology of Teotlixco? Is there possibly an elided vowel, e.g. Teo-atlixco > Teotlixco? > > Thanks. > Richley > > From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Thu Dec 9 20:27:23 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:27:23 -0700 Subject: Translation Message-ID: Thanks. I think you're right on target. Actually, my original attempt at tlahuiz was the same as yours but when I sent this question to the list I grabbed Karttunen's wonderful Analytical Dictionary and found "to light the way for people with tapers or torches" and was struck how dramatically this fit with the story line of leaving the field of battle and going to what was apparently the main settlement of the people being admonished, so did it that way on the spur of the moment. But I do think you're right that the three-fold repetition is most likely to be intended as repitition of the same idea as you suggest. Thanks for your other comments as well. Richley >>> brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU 12/09/04 12:54PM >>> Richely, Are you sure you can get "torch light" out of that sentence? I assume you are translating the segment "i:npan tlahuiz" as "by torchlight." But it seems to me that the tlahuiz is probably another verb (the future of tlahuia) that corresponds to the following two verbs. All of them, "tlahuiz," "tonaz," and "tlaneciz" can mean "it will become light" or "it will dawn." I haven't checked on this, but my first impression is that what you have transcribed as "i:npan" might be understood better in conjunction with "ayocmo:" to mean something like "before the time at which". With regard to the issue of "to" or "from," it seems to me that your translation is correct. The use of the verb "to go" as opposed to something like "to leave" or "to go out" is consistent with the "ompa" as referring toward the place of Teotlixco as a place that is away from the speaker. So, if I am right (and the could be a very big "if"), then the sentence might read: "Let us go there to Teotlixco before it becomes light, before it dawns, before it lightens." Galen Richley Crapo wrote: > Would anyone like to try his/her hand at: > > "Ma tihuiya:n o:mpa in Teo:tli:xco ayocmo: i:npan tlahuiz, to:naz, tlaneciz." > > "Would something like, "Let us go to Teotlixco by torchlight, before it is light, before it dawns!" capture it? Or would any of you recommend something different? > > I'm particularly curious whether one can distinguish between "to Teotlixco" from "from Teotlixco" in this. Could it be either one? > > And, finally, what is the etymology of Teotlixco? Is there possibly an elided vowel, e.g. Teo-atlixco > Teotlixco? > > Thanks. > Richley > > From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 23 00:45:15 2004 From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:45:15 -0800 Subject: Chicomoztoc In-Reply-To: <41B8AD86.4080708@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: I have a question about the word Chicomoztoc. It's translated as something similar to the seven caves. But is it possible that the MO element, could mean Momoztli (altar)? Why could Mo in Chicomoztoc, technically be, or not be, momoztli? Thanks, Richard Dorfsman --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! � What will yours do? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Dec 23 01:17:48 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:17:48 -0500 Subject: Chicomoztoc In-Reply-To: <20041223004515.81183.qmail@web90010.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Because it's chico:me+o:zto:+c 'seven-cave-locative' On Dec 22, 2004, at 7:45 PM, rick dosan wrote: > I have a question about the word Chicomoztoc.  It's translated as > something similar to the seven caves.  But is it possible that the MO > element, could mean Momoztli (altar)?  Why could Mo in Chicomoztoc, > technically be, or not be, momoztli?  Thanks, > Richard Dorfsman > > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do? From david at JEDDYSHAW.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Dec 7 20:57:14 2004 From: david at JEDDYSHAW.FREESERVE.CO.UK (David Eddyshaw) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:57:14 +0000 Subject: noun incorporation in Nahuatl Message-ID: Quite often in general linguistic discussions of polysynthesis I've come across the assertion that incorporated objects in Nahuatl can be referential (ie. are active in discourse, can be picked up by pronouns etc). For the life of me I can't see this; as far as I can see in fact, for a noun stem to be incorporated into a verb as object it actually must _not_ refer to any particular entity. Am I just wrong about this? Is it something in which Classical Nahuatl differs from some modern dialects? David Eddyshaw From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Tue Dec 7 21:18:05 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 16:18:05 -0500 Subject: noun incorporation in Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <925EB4F7-4892-11D9-9D50-000A95803010@jeddyshaw.freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: As I understand it, incorporated object nouns are generic, while unincorporated ones are specific. For instance, nicchihua cactli I am making a specific shoe/shoes' vs. nicacchihua 'I am engaged in shoemaking" On Dec 7, 2004, at 3:57 PM, David Eddyshaw wrote: > Quite often in general linguistic discussions of polysynthesis I've > come across the assertion that incorporated objects in Nahuatl can be > referential (ie. are active in discourse, can be picked up by pronouns > etc). For the life of me I can't see this; as far as I can see in fact, > for a noun stem to be incorporated into a verb as object it actually > must _not_ refer to any particular entity. Am I just wrong about this? > Is it something in which Classical Nahuatl differs from some modern > dialects? > > David Eddyshaw > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Tue Dec 7 21:22:53 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 16:22:53 -0500 Subject: noun incorporation in Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <925EB4F7-4892-11D9-9D50-000A95803010@jeddyshaw.freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: David: Are you referring to items such as Classical "cacchihua" (cac[tli]-chihua) 'he/she makes shoes'? Yes, in this kind of construction the general rather than the specific is the referent. I *think* I saw one time in the Florentine codex what appeared to be a specific referent for such a construction, but maybe not. :) For the specific, in Classical, you must say "cactli quichihua" or "quichihua cactli" = "he is making the shoes". In modern dialects, I imagine you might see something like "quinchihua cactin". On Tue, 7 Dec 2004, David Eddyshaw wrote: > Quite often in general linguistic discussions of polysynthesis I've > come across the assertion that incorporated objects in Nahuatl can be > referential (ie. are active in discourse, can be picked up by pronouns > etc). For the life of me I can't see this; as far as I can see in fact, > for a noun stem to be incorporated into a verb as object it actually > must _not_ refer to any particular entity. Am I just wrong about this? > Is it something in which Classical Nahuatl differs from some modern > dialects? > > David Eddyshaw > > > From heike.boedeker at NETCOLOGNE.DE Tue Dec 7 21:46:31 2004 From: heike.boedeker at NETCOLOGNE.DE (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Heike_B=F6deker?=) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 22:46:31 +0100 Subject: noun incorporation in Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <925EB4F7-4892-11D9-9D50-000A95803010@jeddyshaw.freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: Dear David, > Quite often in general linguistic discussions of polysynthesis I've > come across the assertion that incorporated objects in Nahuatl can > be referential Just out of curiosity: who did write that where and when? >From the literature I have read I only can remember that incorporated nouns were analyzed as unspecific, generic etc. (ok, one might call that an unspecific, generic etc. reference), which seemingly holds for most languages, not just Nahuatl. All the best, Heike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 265.4.7 - Release Date: 07.12.04 From david at JEDDYSHAW.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Dec 7 23:02:27 2004 From: david at JEDDYSHAW.FREESERVE.CO.UK (David Eddyshaw) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 23:02:27 +0000 Subject: noun incorporation in Nahuatl In-Reply-To: <41B632C7.28880.165317@localhost> Message-ID: Heike B?deker writes: > Dear David, > > > Quite often in general linguistic discussions of polysynthesis I've > > come across the assertion that incorporated objects in Nahuatl can > > be referential > > Just out of curiosity: who did write that where and when? > eg in passing in Mark Baker's stuff about his (in my deeply expert ;-) view) highly implausible "polysynthesis parameter". The only (alleged) actual example I've found comes from Jeff McSwain, SW journal of Linguistics, Vol 17, No. 2 (1998), in SE Puebla Nahuatl: Onikitak tlakemetl, gika nitlakekoas which he glosses "I saw some clothes, so I'm going to buy the clothes" which I must say doesn't strike me as very convincing, inasmuch as I can see no reason not to render the last word along the lines of "I'll go clothes-buying" I brought this up because it seems so much at variance with the whole plan of Nahuatl grammar; my reading of Andrews and Launey's grammars seems basicallly to rule out particular reference for incorporated objects, but I'm no sort of expert on Nahuatl so thought it could just be my ignorance. There certainly do exist languages, however, in which incorporated noun objects can have particular reference, eg. the Australian language Mayali. THere's a whole literature about diffent sorts of noun incorporation in this regard (as I expect you know better than I do) Thanks for the reply David From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Thu Dec 9 19:05:11 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 12:05:11 -0700 Subject: Translation Message-ID: Would anyone like to try his/her hand at: "Ma tihuiya:n o:mpa in Teo:tli:xco ayocmo: i:npan tlahuiz, to:naz, tlaneciz." "Would something like, "Let us go to Teotlixco by torchlight, before it is light, before it dawns!" capture it? Or would any of you recommend something different? I'm particularly curious whether one can distinguish between "to Teotlixco" from "from Teotlixco" in this. Could it be either one? And, finally, what is the etymology of Teotlixco? Is there possibly an elided vowel, e.g. Teo-atlixco > Teotlixco? Thanks. Richley From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Thu Dec 9 19:54:46 2004 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:54:46 -0500 Subject: Translation Message-ID: Richely, Are you sure you can get "torch light" out of that sentence? I assume you are translating the segment "i:npan tlahuiz" as "by torchlight." But it seems to me that the tlahuiz is probably another verb (the future of tlahuia) that corresponds to the following two verbs. All of them, "tlahuiz," "tonaz," and "tlaneciz" can mean "it will become light" or "it will dawn." I haven't checked on this, but my first impression is that what you have transcribed as "i:npan" might be understood better in conjunction with "ayocmo:" to mean something like "before the time at which". With regard to the issue of "to" or "from," it seems to me that your translation is correct. The use of the verb "to go" as opposed to something like "to leave" or "to go out" is consistent with the "ompa" as referring toward the place of Teotlixco as a place that is away from the speaker. So, if I am right (and the could be a very big "if"), then the sentence might read: "Let us go there to Teotlixco before it becomes light, before it dawns, before it lightens." Galen Richley Crapo wrote: > Would anyone like to try his/her hand at: > > "Ma tihuiya:n o:mpa in Teo:tli:xco ayocmo: i:npan tlahuiz, to:naz, tlaneciz." > > "Would something like, "Let us go to Teotlixco by torchlight, before it is light, before it dawns!" capture it? Or would any of you recommend something different? > > I'm particularly curious whether one can distinguish between "to Teotlixco" from "from Teotlixco" in this. Could it be either one? > > And, finally, what is the etymology of Teotlixco? Is there possibly an elided vowel, e.g. Teo-atlixco > Teotlixco? > > Thanks. > Richley > > From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Thu Dec 9 20:27:23 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:27:23 -0700 Subject: Translation Message-ID: Thanks. I think you're right on target. Actually, my original attempt at tlahuiz was the same as yours but when I sent this question to the list I grabbed Karttunen's wonderful Analytical Dictionary and found "to light the way for people with tapers or torches" and was struck how dramatically this fit with the story line of leaving the field of battle and going to what was apparently the main settlement of the people being admonished, so did it that way on the spur of the moment. But I do think you're right that the three-fold repetition is most likely to be intended as repitition of the same idea as you suggest. Thanks for your other comments as well. Richley >>> brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU 12/09/04 12:54PM >>> Richely, Are you sure you can get "torch light" out of that sentence? I assume you are translating the segment "i:npan tlahuiz" as "by torchlight." But it seems to me that the tlahuiz is probably another verb (the future of tlahuia) that corresponds to the following two verbs. All of them, "tlahuiz," "tonaz," and "tlaneciz" can mean "it will become light" or "it will dawn." I haven't checked on this, but my first impression is that what you have transcribed as "i:npan" might be understood better in conjunction with "ayocmo:" to mean something like "before the time at which". With regard to the issue of "to" or "from," it seems to me that your translation is correct. The use of the verb "to go" as opposed to something like "to leave" or "to go out" is consistent with the "ompa" as referring toward the place of Teotlixco as a place that is away from the speaker. So, if I am right (and the could be a very big "if"), then the sentence might read: "Let us go there to Teotlixco before it becomes light, before it dawns, before it lightens." Galen Richley Crapo wrote: > Would anyone like to try his/her hand at: > > "Ma tihuiya:n o:mpa in Teo:tli:xco ayocmo: i:npan tlahuiz, to:naz, tlaneciz." > > "Would something like, "Let us go to Teotlixco by torchlight, before it is light, before it dawns!" capture it? Or would any of you recommend something different? > > I'm particularly curious whether one can distinguish between "to Teotlixco" from "from Teotlixco" in this. Could it be either one? > > And, finally, what is the etymology of Teotlixco? Is there possibly an elided vowel, e.g. Teo-atlixco > Teotlixco? > > Thanks. > Richley > > From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 23 00:45:15 2004 From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:45:15 -0800 Subject: Chicomoztoc In-Reply-To: <41B8AD86.4080708@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: I have a question about the word Chicomoztoc. It's translated as something similar to the seven caves. But is it possible that the MO element, could mean Momoztli (altar)? Why could Mo in Chicomoztoc, technically be, or not be, momoztli? Thanks, Richard Dorfsman --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Dec 23 01:17:48 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:17:48 -0500 Subject: Chicomoztoc In-Reply-To: <20041223004515.81183.qmail@web90010.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Because it's chico:me+o:zto:+c 'seven-cave-locative' On Dec 22, 2004, at 7:45 PM, rick dosan wrote: > I have a question about the word Chicomoztoc.? It's translated as > something similar to the seven caves.? But is it possible that the MO > element, could mean Momoztli (altar)?? Why could Mo in Chicomoztoc, > technically be, or not be, momoztli?? Thanks, > Richard Dorfsman > > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do?