From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Sun Feb 1 21:58:58 2004 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 16:58:58 EST Subject: ANIMAL & MLA Message-ID: Elizabeth: Glad that ANIMAL got there. I would be most interested in any comments you have regarding similarities and differences between the Spanish and Nahuatl versions. We cannot touch the play stuff - sigh, but that's the deal we have with U of Ok Press. Any thoughts on any other genre? Maybe it would be a good idea for me to write and get more info. Ye ixquich. Barry In a message dated 2/1/04 10:27:13 AM, Elizabethmadrid at cs.com writes: << I just received the animal draft. Many thanks. I am intrigued by the MLA call for proposals. What part of the project could we publish with them without encroaching on OK? It would be a very important public to reach if we could. >> From mosquerd at UNION.EDU Mon Feb 2 01:33:58 2004 From: mosquerd at UNION.EDU (Daniel Mosquera) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 20:33:58 -0500 Subject: ANIMAL & MLA In-Reply-To: <176.24c977df.2d4ed0a2@aol.com> Message-ID: Barry, I am not sure whether this message was intended for Nahuat-l (it was thorugh the list I saw it). I do not believe it pertains to me, directly, but if it should, let me know. I am a bit confused about its content. daniel Amapohuani at AOL.COM wrote: >Elizabeth: > >Glad that ANIMAL got there. I would be most interested in any comments you >have regarding similarities and differences between the Spanish and Nahuatl >versions. > >We cannot touch the play stuff - sigh, but that's the deal we have with U of >Ok Press. Any thoughts on any other genre? > >Maybe it would be a good idea for me to write and get more info. > >Ye ixquich. >Barry > >In a message dated 2/1/04 10:27:13 AM, Elizabethmadrid at cs.com writes: > ><< I just received the animal draft. Many thanks. I am intrigued by the MLA >call for proposals. What part of the project could we publish with them >without encroaching on OK? It would be a very important public to reach if we >could. >> > > > > -- Daniel O. Mosquera Assistant Professor of Spanish and Latin American Studies Dept of Modern Languages and Lits. Union College Schenectady NY 12308 Tel: (518) 3886415 Fax: (518) 3886462 From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 02:00:49 2004 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 21:00:49 EST Subject: ANIMAL & MLA Message-ID: Daniel: Just my error. I meant to send it to Elizabeth but I left the nahuat-l url in by accident. When I saw what I did - too late of course - I then sent the same message to the right address. We cannot do any play stuff - but if you have any suggestions re any other material, let me know and maybe we could work on it together. Ye ixquich. Barry In a message dated 2/1/04 5:44:45 PM, mosquerd at UNION.EDU writes: << Barry, I am not sure whether this message was intended for Nahuat-l (it was thorugh the list I saw it). I do not believe it pertains to me, directly, but if it should, let me know. I am a bit confused about its content. daniel Amapohuani at AOL.COM wrote: >Elizabeth: > >Glad that ANIMAL got there. I would be most interested in any comments you >have regarding similarities and differences between the Spanish and Nahuatl >versions. > >We cannot touch the play stuff - sigh, but that's the deal we have with U of >Ok Press. Any thoughts on any other genre? > >Maybe it would be a good idea for me to write and get more info. > >Ye ixquich. >Barry > >In a message dated 2/1/04 10:27:13 AM, Elizabethmadrid at cs.com writes: > ><< I just received the animal draft. Many thanks. I am intrigued by the MLA >call for proposals. What part of the project could we publish with them >without encroaching on OK? It would be a very important public to reach if we >could. >> >> From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Mon Feb 2 21:56:21 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:56:21 -0700 Subject: Geography Question Message-ID: Is anyone on the list aware of a pre-Hispanic site named Teotlixco? If so, where was it located? Richley From svartronic at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 2 22:59:17 2004 From: svartronic at YAHOO.COM (Arturo Sandoval) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:59:17 -0800 Subject: Libros de Galarza In-Reply-To: <03e401c3e536$502b1020$b8c6623e@mexico> Message-ID: Susana,quizas puedas encontrar informaci�n en el website de la Universidad Veracruzana a trav�s de sus Centros de Idiomas (www.uv.mx).A continuaci�n un articulo que encontr� ahi referente al idioma n�huatl(UNIVERSO la Revista de los Universitarios,A�o 2 � No. 44 � Noviembre 5 de 2001 Xalapa � Veracruz � M�xico Publicaci�n Semanal ). Saludos Cordiales, Arturo ============================= El n�huatl: una lengua moderna Gina Sotelo R�os A diferencia de la manera en que los institutos imparten clases de ingl�s, franc�s o cualquier lengua extranjera, cuyo dominio es avalado con a�os de experiencia y estudios, la educaci�n ind�gena se lleva a cabo de manera muy emp�rica. Por un lado, porque no hay el material did�ctico adecuado para dar clases de una lengua ind�gena, pareciendo que basta con tener el conocimiento del n�huatl o totonaco para poder estar frente a un grupo; por otro, vale la pena preguntarse qu� pasa con los ling�istas, pues si bien existen muchos estudios de buena calidad sint�tica, de eso a que se pueda utilizar el conocimiento de manera accesible a la gente media una gran diferencia. Para aquellas personas que hablan el n�huatl sin analizarlo y acercarlo a quienes no lo conocen, Andr�s Hasler Hangert dio a conocer su texto Gram�tica moderna del n�huatl de Tehuac�n- Zongolica, donde concreta su inter�s por estudiar a profundidad la estructura de esa lengua aut�ctona en un documento de car�cter pr�ctico. Aunque los ling�istas hacen estudios que com�nmente se publican en ingl�s y son expuestos en foros internacionales, los responsables de la educaci�n ind�gena ni se enteran de ellos, afirma Hasler Hangert: "Se escriben textos con deformaciones de la lengua y esto se debe a que los investigadores-ling�istas no aterrizan sus conocimientos y las personas que escriben textos en idioma ind�gena improvisan al no tener la metodolog�a adecuada". A�ade que, a diferencia de los centros de idiomas e incluso la Real Academia Espa�ola, que tienen especialistas en la investigaci�n de las lenguas, en M�xico se considera a las lenguas ind�genas como de quinta o sexta categor�a, que pueden escribirse como sea. "Ellas son aptas para la vida moderna, para pensar en proyectos que incluyan la diversidad ling��stica, no como piezas de museo". Hasler Hangert menciona que ya es hora de dejar de ver a los ind�genas como si vivieran en un zool�gico o como ni�os chiquitos; hay que considerarlos como ciudadanos en igualdad de condiciones, como cualquier otro ser humano de una naci�n moderna. "Yo no culpo a la gente por no saber escribir bien las lenguas ind�genas, lo cual tiene una explicaci�n hist�rica: "Las lenguas ind�genas nunca han recibido ninguna atenci�n, por lo que he aqu� una propuesta de c�mo entenderlas mejor". Gram�tica moderna del n�huatl inicia con una presentaci�n de la dialectolog�a que estudia las variantes de una lengua en el �mbito geogr�fico, el segundo cap�tulo est� dedicado a la clasificaci�n de las palabras, el tercero abarca su morfolog�a, uno m�s centra su atenci�n en c�mo se actualiza el n�huatl y, por �ltimo, el autor dedica un apartado a la ortograf�a. --- Susana Moraleda-Dragotto wrote: > Por favor, alguien podria indicarme adonde se pueden conseguir los > siguientes libros de Joaquin Galarza? > > (1) "Conversacion Nahuatl-Espanol - metodo audiovisual para la ensenanza del > Nahuatl" > (2) "Amatl, amoxtli: el papel, el libro". > (3) "In amoxtli, in tlacatl - codices y vivencias" > (4) La palabra florida > > He buscado los 4 titulos en Internet, pero no encuentro nada pertinente. > > Mil gracias. > > Susana __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM Tue Feb 3 11:33:54 2004 From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 12:33:54 +0100 Subject: Libros de Galarza Message-ID: No, Monika, nadie me ha escrito nada desgraciadamente. Tu adonde has buscado? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monika Jarosz" To: Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 3:47 AM Subject: Re: Libros de Galarza > Hola Susana, > > Yo tambien trate de encontrar "Conversacion Nahuatl-Espanol - metodo > audiovisual para la ensenanza del Nahuatl" pero sin resultados. Me gustaria > saber si alguien te dio algunas sugerencias a donde lo podemos encontrar. > > Te voy a agradecer mucho tu ayuda > > Saludos > Monika > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susana Moraleda-Dragotto" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 4:17 PM > Subject: Libros de Galarza > > > > Por favor, alguien podria indicarme adonde se pueden conseguir los > > siguientes libros de Joaquin Galarza? > > > > (1) "Conversacion Nahuatl-Espanol - metodo audiovisual para la ensenanza > del > > Nahuatl" > > (2) "Amatl, amoxtli: el papel, el libro". > > (3) "In amoxtli, in tlacatl - codices y vivencias" > > (4) La palabra florida > > > > He buscado los 4 titulos en Internet, pero no encuentro nada pertinente. > > > > Mil gracias. > > > > Susana > > > > From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Tue Feb 3 16:51:55 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:51:55 -0500 Subject: Geography Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richley, It's mentioned in the Florentine (Book 11) under the discussion of yollotototl on p. 25 of the D&A edition. Also under tecuciltototl on p. 26. Saludos, Joe On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, Richley Crapo wrote: > Is anyone on the list aware of a pre-Hispanic site named Teotlixco? If so, where was it located? > Richley > > > From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Tue Feb 3 16:57:12 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 09:57:12 -0700 Subject: Geography Question Message-ID: By "southern sea" do you suppose he means Lake Chalco? Richley >>> campbel at INDIANA.EDU 02/03 9:51 AM >>> Richley, It's mentioned in the Florentine (Book 11) under the discussion of yollotototl on p. 25 of the D&A edition. Also under tecuciltototl on p. 26. Saludos, Joe On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, Richley Crapo wrote: > Is anyone on the list aware of a pre-Hispanic site named Teotlixco? If so, where was it located? > Richley > > > From Huehueteot at AOL.COM Tue Feb 3 17:01:05 2004 From: Huehueteot at AOL.COM (Huehueteot at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 12:01:05 EST Subject: Geography Question Message-ID: In a message dated 2/2/04 4:06:42 PM Central Standard Time, RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU writes: > Is anyone on the list aware of a pre-Hispanic site named Teotlixco? If so, > where was it located? > Richley > Richley: I remember the name, but I don't remember where it is located. Check the Medoza or Barlows Independant Seniorios. Unfortunately My copies of both are missing in a series of catastrophes and I cannot do it for you. My memory is that it is either in Puebla or Oaxaca in the Mixteca Alta or Canyada (can't do an enye). But I am not sure for it has been almost 30 years. Cheers Sam Ball -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Feb 3 17:09:51 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:09:51 -0600 Subject: Geography Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:51 AM 2/3/2004, you wrote: > > Is anyone on the list aware of a pre-Hispanic site named Teotlixco? > It's mentioned in the Florentine (Book 11) under the discussion of >yollotototl on p. 25 of the D&A edition. Also under tecuciltototl >on p. 26. In Peter Gerhard's Guide to the Historical Geography the closest is Teotlaxco located in the alcaldia mayor de Villa Alta de los Zapotecas John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Tue Feb 3 18:31:22 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 13:31:22 -0500 Subject: Geography Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This would be, typically, the Pacific Ocean. On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, Richley Crapo wrote: > By "southern sea" do you suppose he means Lake Chalco? > Richley > > >>> campbel at INDIANA.EDU 02/03 9:51 AM >>> > Richley, > > It's mentioned in the Florentine (Book 11) under the discussion of > yollotototl on p. 25 of the D&A edition. Also under tecuciltototl > on p. 26. > > Saludos, > > Joe > > > On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, Richley Crapo wrote: > > > Is anyone on the list aware of a pre-Hispanic site named Teotlixco? If so, where was it located? > > Richley > > > > > > > > > From svartronic at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 3 22:32:25 2004 From: svartronic at YAHOO.COM (Arturo Sandoval) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 14:32:25 -0800 Subject: Información sobre libros de GALARZA Message-ID: Hola Susana,te envio informacion sobre libros de GALARZA,espero te sea util, ARTURO ==================================================================================== GALARZA, Joaqu�n, Estudios de escritura ind�gena tradicional AZTECA-NAHUATL, M�xico, Archivo General de la Naci�n /Centre D'Etudes Mexicaines Et Centroamericaines, 1980. GALARZA, Joaquin GALARZA, Joaquin. 1980. Estudios de escritura indigena tradicional azteca-nahuatl. Mexico: Archivo General de la Nacion. GALARZA, Joaquin, and LOPEZ AVILA, Carlos GALARZA, Joaquin, and LOPEZ AVILA, Carlos. 1987. Conversacion nahuatl-espanol, metodo audiovisual para la ensenanza del nahuatl. Cuadernos de la Casa Chata 149. 172 p. Mexico: Centro de Investigaciones y Estudios Superiores en Antropologia Social (CIESAS) ������������������������������������ Estudios de escritura ind�gena tradicional AZTECA-NAHUATL Galarza, Joaqu�n, M�xico, Archivo General de la Naci�n /Centre D'Etudes Mexicaines Et Centroamericaines, 1980, 164 p. Se exponen los problemas de investigaci�n existentes para estudiar el sistema de escritura tradicional n�huatl. Tambi�n se�ala una de las principales dificultades para leer manuscritos pictogr�ficos mexicanos porque cada p�gina es un verdadero �cuadro gr�fico� . La soluci�n a esta lectura implica leer indistintamente pictogramos, glifos, signos fon�eticos y simb�licos y los elementos decorativos de la escritura. Valiosa aportaci�n al estudio, del n�huatl. FUENTE (http://www.agn.gob.mx/publi/publi_agn03.html) DISTRIBUCI�N Y VENTA DE PUBLICACIONES Librer�a del Archivo General de la Naci�n Eduardo Molina y Alba�iles s/n Col. Penitenciaria Ampliaci�n Delegaci�n Venustiano Carranza 15350, M�xico, D.F. Tel: 51 33 99 00, 57 95 70 80 ext. 19327, 19424 Fax : 57 89 52 96 E-mail: distribucionagn at segob.gob.mx __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ From idiez at MAC.COM Wed Feb 4 03:13:12 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 21:13:12 -0600 Subject: Just for fun Message-ID: Just for fun, from Chapulhuacanito, San Luis Potosí. Niquelnamiqui pan ce tlalli techtlaneltìtoya para titequiticè. Iaxca ce coyotl itoca Salome Sanchez, pan ce rancho itoca Tecomate. Tòhuantin titlaxhuitequiyaya para tictocacè cintli. Nopayè nechtitlanqui ma niccuiti atl pan ce acomolli. Quema ya niccuepilia pan òtli, nicpantì ce hueyi coatl, huan peuhqui niquatzàtzi. Nechcacquè huan nimantzin huallàquè nopayè huan noicniuh José. Nopa coatl amo moliniyaya, itztoya noixteno. José nimantzin quiquixtì ce hueyi quahuitl, ica inon quitzonhuitecqui miyac vuelta, huan quimictì. Nà nihuipipicayaya, ayàmo huelqui nitequitic. "Amo ximomàmauhti," quìtoyaya nopayè. "Amo ximotequipacho. Nà nimitztonaltzàtziliz. Moztla nimitzochpanaz para tictlananacè motonal. Me acuerdo de un terreno que nos prestaba para trabajar. Era propiedad de un burgués llamado Salomé Sánchez, en un rancho llamado Tecomate. Nosotros chapoleábamos para sembrar maíz. Mi papá me mandó a traer agua de un pozo. Cuando venía de regreso en el camino, me encontré con una vívora grande, y empecé a gritar. Me escucharon, e inmediatamente vinieron mi papá y mi hermano. La vivora no se movía, estaba en frente de mí. José inmediatamente sacó un palo grande, y con él le pegó muchas veces y lo mató. Yo estaba temblando, ya no pude trabajar. "No te asustes," me dijo mi papá. "No te preocupes, yo voy a llamar a tu espíritu. Mañana te haré una limpia para que levantemos tu espíritu." John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco García Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 México Oficina: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular (desde México): 044 (492) 544-5985 Celular (desde el extranjero) +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1958 bytes Desc: not available URL: From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Wed Feb 4 05:32:30 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 00:32:30 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 4 Message-ID: Molina has: nitlatetehuana tender lo encogido (he is not just talking about laying something out, but literally *stretching* something that has shrunk.) As usual, what is the composition of the word? Saludos, Joe From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Wed Feb 4 13:39:01 2004 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 08:39:01 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 4 Message-ID: Joe, Is there a spelling mistake in this one too? Specifically, could you spell it: nitlateteuhana? Galen r. joe campbell wrote: > Molina has: nitlatetehuana > > tender lo encogido > > (he is not just talking about laying something out, > but literally *stretching* something that has shrunk.) > > As usual, what is the composition of the word? > > Saludos, > > Joe > From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Wed Feb 4 15:37:48 2004 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:37:48 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 4 Message-ID: Actually, I guess my question isn't whether or not this is a spelling mistake. I suppose that if you have teuh followed by a vowel, then it would be spelled "-tehu-", right? So, my question has to do with whether or not there is a morphological division at this point in the word, making it: ni + tla + te (reduplication) + teuh + ana Andrews classifies this "teuh" as a suffix, but there are a few words in the Florentine that seem to use a reduplicated form of "teuh" as an embedded adjective meaning "completely or thoroughly" rather than a suffix meaning "in the manner of." Examples: moteteuhtlalia, quiteteuhilpia. And this seems to make sense. There is also a "motitihuana" that means to stretch out. So, if the break down that I have given above is correct, then the "motitihuana" is really "motetehuana". Is that right? Galen r. joe campbell wrote: > Molina has: nitlatetehuana > > tender lo encogido > > (he is not just talking about laying something out, > but literally *stretching* something that has shrunk.) > > As usual, what is the composition of the word? > > Saludos, > > Joe > From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Wed Feb 4 15:55:48 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 08:55:48 -0700 Subject: Geography Question Message-ID: >>> campbel at INDIANA.EDU 02/03 9:51 AM >>> Richley, It's mentioned in the Florentine (Book 11) under the discussion of yollotototl on p. 25 of the D&A edition. Also under tecuciltototl on p. 26. Saludos, Joe ------- Joe, I've also seen a reference by Sahagun to Teotlixco where he discusses the hairless dog. In that one, he uses the same phrase as in one you site above: "toward the south sea" in describing Teotlixco's location. As far as you know, are there any others in which he describes the location in any other way? The phrase could refer to the Pacific Ocean as someone has suggested, but the text I'm working on (Anonimo Mexicano) has the TeoChichimecs, after the war of Poyauhtlan (near Mt. Tlaloc), told to leave the area and go to Teotlixco "before dawn," which suggests that it wasn't as far as the Pacific--unlesss, of course, "getting to Teotlixco before dawn" is an idiom for something like "leave immediately." Where the narrative takes them is south past Amecameca, then across Popocatepetl to Cholula and, finally, Tlaxcala, not the Pacific. Someone else pointed out that Teotlaxco is the closest place name to Teotlixco, but is there any evidence that Teotlaxco's name was spelled differently in the past? Although it's in the right general direction for this journey, I suspect that it's not the same place. On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, Richley Crapo wrote: > Is anyone on the list aware of a pre-Hispanic site named Teotlixco? If so, where was it located? > Richley > > > From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Wed Feb 4 21:18:24 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:18:24 -0500 Subject: Geography Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richley, Of course, as you know, Luis reyes Garcia translated "teotlixco" as "east" in his introductory study to Zapata y Mendoza's ""Chronologia." best, Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Wed Feb 4 22:31:01 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 15:31:01 -0700 Subject: Geography Question Message-ID: Thanks. I did *not* know that, and it fits the context of a move from the Valley of Mexico to Tlaxcala. One reason I was looking for a location is that Sahagun seems to identify a town or province by the name and Simeon (perhaps drawing on Sahagun) identifies it as both a province and a town "toward the south sea." Richley >>> mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU 02/04 2:18 PM >>> Richley, Of course, as you know, Luis reyes Garcia translated "teotlixco" as "east" in his introductory study to Zapata y Mendoza's ""Chronologia." best, Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Wed Feb 4 22:48:15 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:48:15 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 4 In-Reply-To: <4020F5F5.10108@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, Galen Brokaw wrote: > Joe, > Is there a spelling mistake in this one too? > Specifically, could you spell it: nitlateteuhana? > > Galen > Galen, If Nahuatl spelling were determined only by the phonemes and their various juxtapositions, the spelling would be nitlatetehuana. In fact, the form that I presented as Molina's contained an error (Molina: nitlateteuana), since Molina usually spelled /w/ as 'u'. (I handle Nahuatl words in a regularized spelling which is similar to the Carochi/Andrews/Karttunen orthography, except for not supplying vowel length or glottal stops which are not in the original text.) Your spelling (which I like, but still have some reservations about) (i.e. nitlateteuhana) is the kind alluded to in Andrews (rev. ed.), p. 31, para. 2.5: "Spelling at Points of Internal Open Transition. When two stems are joined by compounding ... their boundaries, as a rule, are preserved by open transition; that is, a slight but audible space is left between the adjacent sounds. This has several consequences: ... ... (2) a stem-final consonant has the sound it would have in vocable-final position (e.g., [kwaw + e:watl], {my keyboard characters can't allow me reproduce Andrews' transcription with fidelity} where the /w/ of [kwaw] is voiceless). Written texts recognize open transition by spelling a stem-final consonant in such a context as if it were vocable-final: cuauhe:huatl (not cuahue:huatl)..." Since I don't believe that orthographic records are an anywhere near foolproof way of inferring low-level phonetic facts like the devoicing of /w/, I have doubts about "a slight but audible space" being left after the /w/s in question. "Open juncture" has been a problem for linguists, partly because there has not been agreement on what it was. Some linguists have assumed that the term was to be taken literally -- that it really involved a *space* (read, "silence", "pause", etc.). Some linguists have suggested that juncture was some sort of operator which was "present", but might or might not be audible, the likelihood of its presence inferred by indirect means (as are many "facts" about our world). When I say "I have doubts", that probably leaves doubt as to what I mean. I *don't* believe (until someone shows a good reason) that we have any way of detecting the degree of voicing in intervocal /w/ in "classical" Nahuatl. All of my tapes are of such bad quality... >8-) But that's another story... Since my server saw fit to drop me and the first version of my comments, I saw your second message and I'm composing off-line to protect myself from the malice up there -- I'll upload and send it off while it's not looking. I agree that the -teteuh- sequence could be a reduplication. In fact, whenever I see two identical syllables in Nahuatl, it's my first candidate for interpreting the morphological structure, as in: qui-tlatlalia he repeatedly places it On the other hand, sometimes the structure dictates that it shouldn't be regarded as reduplication: ni_tlatla_palaquia I apply color to something ------ where tlapa:lli (tla-pa:-l-li) is an embedded noun, acting as an adverb on the verb -aqui-a; nitla- is, of course, the subject with its tla- being the object pa:. tla-pa:-l ni-tla- aqui-a ************************ * Just an aside: * * I would look around at the occurrences of -teuh that need to be * eliminated in the consideration of the element preceding it: * * ocualanteuh he got up angrily and went away * * o-cualan(i)-t(i)-ehua(a) a compound verb * ************************* * and, of course, noteuh (my stone) * ************************* I have found: amateuhtlalili , tla-. something that is fashioned like paper. . FC (very likely an error for tla-amateuhtlalilli) choquizcuauhteuhtlaza =nino. llorar con golpes. . 55m-12 cihuateuh. mugerilmente. . 55m-14 cozcateuh. like a jewel; like a necklace; like a precious necklace. . FC cozcateuhtlamatizque , ti-. we shall love him like a precious necklace. . FC ichcateuhtic. flueco de lana. . 55m-10 macuexteuh. like a bracelet. . FC macuexteuhtlamatizque , ti-. we shall love him like a precious stone necklace. . FC mati =cozcateuh quetzalteuh ipan nimitz. tener en gran estima el padre a su hijo. . 71m1-20 ocholteuhtlalia , nitla-. I form something cluster-like. . FC ohocholteuhca. like clusters. . FC quetzalteuh. like a precious feather. . FC temicteuh. dream-like. . FC xictetehuanazque , qui-. they will violently tear out his entrails. . FC This examples should indicate that -teuh- is the shape of the modifying particle and that the element which precedes it is a noun. If that noun is tetl, then words like: nic-teteuh-ilpia I tie it tightly, I tie it hard qui-teteuh-malina she twists it tightly, she twists it hard are only slightly metaphorical -- and then speakers exercise their love for wider, more stretched, oc cenca tlateteuhantli metaphors with items like: nino-teteuh-ana I stretch (with laziness or to relax) Thanks!!! for mentioning the -titihuana example. I hadn't noticed it -- and, if I had, might not have made the connection. The e to i change certainly does occur. One curious thing is that all the -titiuh examples are restricted to the Florentine. The -teteuh examples occur both in the Florentine and in the three Molinas. Saludos, Joe From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Thu Feb 5 00:01:19 2004 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:01:19 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Joe, Aaaaaaah. Of course. This makes much more sense. This raises a question for me though. Is there a grammatical reason for having the "teuh" here instead of just the noun/adjective? It would seem that they could just use "tetl" without the "teuh" and get the same meaning. I notice from the list you included that the "teuh" appears with other nouns functioning as adjectives. Is this just a kind of redundancy or is there some contextual or grammatical reason for using the "teuh"? Galen r. joe campbell wrote: >On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, Galen Brokaw wrote: > > >>Joe, >>Is there a spelling mistake in this one too? >>Specifically, could you spell it: nitlateteuhana? >> >>Galen >> >> >> > >Galen, > > If Nahuatl spelling were determined only by the phonemes and their >various juxtapositions, the spelling would be nitlatetehuana. In >fact, the form that I presented as Molina's contained an error >(Molina: nitlateteuana), since Molina usually spelled /w/ as 'u'. (I >handle Nahuatl words in a regularized spelling which is similar to the >Carochi/Andrews/Karttunen orthography, except for not supplying vowel >length or glottal stops which are not in the original text.) > > Your spelling (which I like, but still have some reservations about) >(i.e. nitlateteuhana) is the kind alluded to in Andrews (rev. ed.), p. 31, >para. 2.5: "Spelling at Points of Internal Open Transition. When two >stems are joined by compounding ... their boundaries, as a rule, are >preserved by open transition; that is, a slight but audible space is left >between the adjacent sounds. This has several consequences: ... ... (2) a >stem-final consonant has the sound it would have in vocable-final position >(e.g., [kwaw + e:watl], {my keyboard characters can't allow me reproduce >Andrews' transcription with fidelity} where the /w/ of [kwaw] is >voiceless). Written texts recognize open transition by spelling a >stem-final consonant in such a context as if it were vocable-final: >cuauhe:huatl (not cuahue:huatl)..." > > Since I don't believe that orthographic records are an anywhere near >foolproof way of inferring low-level phonetic facts like the devoicing >of /w/, I have doubts about "a slight but audible space" being left >after the /w/s in question. "Open juncture" has been a problem for >linguists, partly because there has not been agreement on what it was. >Some linguists have assumed that the term was to be taken literally -- >that it really involved a *space* (read, "silence", "pause", etc.). >Some linguists have suggested that juncture was some sort of operator >which was "present", but might or might not be audible, the likelihood >of its presence inferred by indirect means (as are many "facts" about >our world). > > When I say "I have doubts", that probably leaves doubt as to what I >mean. I *don't* believe (until someone shows a good reason) that we >have any way of detecting the degree of voicing in intervocal /w/ in >"classical" Nahuatl. > All of my tapes are of such bad quality... >8-) > > But that's another story... > > Since my server saw fit to drop me and the first version of my >comments, I saw your second message and I'm composing off-line to >protect myself from the malice up there -- I'll upload and send it off >while it's not looking. > > I agree that the -teteuh- sequence could be a reduplication. In >fact, whenever I see two identical syllables in Nahuatl, it's my first >candidate for interpreting the morphological structure, as in: > > qui-tlatlalia he repeatedly places it > >On the other hand, sometimes the structure dictates that it shouldn't >be regarded as reduplication: > > ni_tlatla_palaquia I apply color to something > ------ > >where tlapa:lli (tla-pa:-l-li) is an embedded noun, acting as an > adverb on the verb -aqui-a; nitla- is, of course, the subject with > its tla- being the object pa:. > > tla-pa:-l > ni-tla- aqui-a > > >************************ >* Just an aside: >* >* I would look around at the occurrences of -teuh that need to be >* eliminated in the consideration of the element preceding it: >* >* ocualanteuh he got up angrily and went away >* >* o-cualan(i)-t(i)-ehua(a) a compound verb >* >************************* >* and, of course, noteuh (my stone) >* >************************* >I have found: > > amateuhtlalili , tla-. something that is fashioned like paper. a:matl-teuh-tla:lia:-l1>. FC > (very likely an error for tla-amateuhtlalilli) > choquizcuauhteuhtlaza =nino. llorar con golpes. cuahuitl-teuh-tla:za>. 55m-12 > cihuateuh. mugerilmente. . 55m-14 > cozcateuh. like a jewel; like a necklace; like a precious necklace. > . FC > cozcateuhtlamatizque , ti-. we shall love him like a precious > necklace. . FC > ichcateuhtic. flueco de lana. . 55m-10 > macuexteuh. like a bracelet. . FC > macuexteuhtlamatizque , ti-. we shall love him like a precious stone > necklace. . FC > mati =cozcateuh quetzalteuh ipan nimitz. tener en gran estima el > padre a su hijo. . > 71m1-20 > ocholteuhtlalia , nitla-. I form something cluster-like. ochoa-l1-teuh-tla:lia:>. FC > ohocholteuhca. like clusters. . FC > quetzalteuh. like a precious feather. . FC > temicteuh. dream-like. . FC > xictetehuanazque , qui-. they will violently tear out his entrails. > . FC > > >This examples should indicate that -teuh- is the shape of the modifying >particle and that the element which precedes it is a noun. If that >noun is tetl, then words like: > > nic-teteuh-ilpia I tie it tightly, I tie it hard > qui-teteuh-malina she twists it tightly, she twists it hard > >are only slightly metaphorical -- and then speakers exercise their love >for wider, more stretched, oc cenca tlateteuhantli metaphors with items >like: > > nino-teteuh-ana I stretch (with laziness or to relax) > >Thanks!!! for mentioning the -titihuana example. I hadn't noticed it -- >and, if I had, might not have made the connection. The e to i change >certainly does occur. One curious thing is that all the -titiuh >examples are restricted to the Florentine. The -teteuh examples >occur both in the Florentine and in the three Molinas. > >Saludos, > >Joe > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Thu Feb 5 14:56:11 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 08:56:11 -0600 Subject: cuicatl/huicatl Message-ID: Can anybody say anything about the variant in the Huasteca for the word "song", which is "huicatl" instead of the expected "cuicatl". I am familiar with different examples of /k/ softening, but in all other cases it becomes an aspiration. This happens 1) to the first of two adjacent /k/, caqui > cacqui; 2) to the third person singular specific object prefix, when it comes after "ni" or "ti" and before another consonant, for example, "nicnequi"; 3) to the /k/ after a /w/, "iuhquinon (from iuhqui, inon)", "in this way", and "nouhquiya (from no, iuhqui, ya)", "also". I also looked in the Keys' Zacapoaxtla vocabulary. They don't have a "cuicatl" entry for "song", but they do have "cuica" for "llevar, to carry s.t.". Back to my question. Anything on "huicatl", "song"? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco García Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 México Oficina: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular (desde México): 044 (492) 544-5985 Celular (desde el extranjero) +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Feb 5 16:23:32 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:23:32 -0500 Subject: cuicatl/huicatl In-Reply-To: <6FB0431A-57EB-11D8-991C-003065C46A4A@mac.com> Message-ID: on 2/5/04 9:56 AM, idiez at MAC.COM at idiez at MAC.COM wrote: > Can anybody say anything about the variant in the Huasteca for the word > "song", which is "huicatl" instead of the expected "cuicatl". I am > familiar with different examples of /k/ softening, but in all other > cases it becomes an aspiration. This happens 1) to the first of two > adjacent /k/, caqui > cacqui; 2) to the third person singular specific > object prefix, when it comes after "ni" or "ti" and before another > consonant, for example, "nicnequi"; 3) to the /k/ after a /w/, > "iuhquinon (from iuhqui, inon)", "in this way", and "nouhquiya (from > no, iuhqui, ya)", "also". I also looked in the Keys' Zacapoaxtla > vocabulary. They don't have a "cuicatl" entry for "song", but they do > have "cuica" for "llevar, to carry s.t.". > Back to my question. Anything on "huicatl", "song"? > John > Not really, but there is another comparable pair: cuetzpalin/huetzpalin 'lizard, iguana.' This variation is documented for Tetelcingo, Morelos. In my experience, /kw/ and gw/ in the Spanish of rural Morelos tend to /w/ too. Could this be substratum influence from the local Nahuatl? Fran From davius_sanctex at TERRA.ES Thu Feb 5 22:44:06 2004 From: davius_sanctex at TERRA.ES (Davius Sanctex) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 23:44:06 +0100 Subject: cuicatl/huicatl Message-ID: [F] In my experience, /kw/ and gw/ in the Spanish of rural Morelos tend to /w/ too. Could this be substratum influence from the local Nahuatl? ---- [D] It is certainly interesting this observation. In general Spanish in fact the current is the opposite to adapt foreign word in /w-/ as /gw-/ as in "whisky" ['wIski] > "güiski" ['gwiski] or "starwars" [stA:rwA:rs] > "estarguors" [es'taRgwoRs]. From hetzelsteve at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 6 01:55:16 2004 From: hetzelsteve at YAHOO.COM (Hetzel S. Mejia) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:55:16 -0800 Subject: signoff Message-ID: signoff hetzelsteve --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hetzelsteve at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 6 01:55:27 2004 From: hetzelsteve at YAHOO.COM (Hetzel S. Mejia) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:55:27 -0800 Subject: signoff Message-ID: signoff hetzelsteve --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hetzelsteve at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 6 02:48:12 2004 From: hetzelsteve at YAHOO.COM (Hetzel S. Mejia) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 18:48:12 -0800 Subject: signoff Message-ID: signoff hetzelsteve --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hetzelsteve at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 6 02:48:33 2004 From: hetzelsteve at YAHOO.COM (Hetzel S. Mejia) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 18:48:33 -0800 Subject: signoff Message-ID: signoff hetzelsteve at Yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Fri Feb 6 16:54:25 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:54:25 -0600 Subject: "a" vs "o/u" Message-ID: I have a pronunciation question regarding the nahuatl of northern Veracruz. Here is the present tense conjugation of the verb "to go" niyauh, I go tiyauh, you go yohui, he, she, it goes tiyohuì, we go inyohuì, you (pl) go yohuì, they go I have always written the "yohui" with an "o", because it is pronounced as a "u". And I have always wondered why it isn't pronounced "yahui". During my most recent visit to Tepecxitla, Veracruz, I encountered the following: ayohuitl, fog (the "o" is pronounced as a "u") tlaayauhtoc, there is fog. I should also mention that the syllable final "-uh" is always pronounced as an aspiration (example: niccahua > niccauhqui, etc.) . There is no rounding of the lips. I would seem that a syllable initial "hu-" (with its rounding) is indeed changing the pronunciation of a preceeding "a". If this is the case, I can go ahead and respell all forms of "fog" and "to go" (and other instances of this situation) with "a"s, just like you find in Molina. However, it this is the case, "cahua" would be pronounced "cohua", unless there is something about the long vowel of "ca:hua" which would interrupt the process. Any ideas? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco García Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 México Oficina: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular (desde México): 044 (492) 544-5985 Celular (desde el extranjero) +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From idiez at MAC.COM Fri Feb 6 17:10:08 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 11:10:08 -0600 Subject: photos of Tepecxitla Message-ID: Listeros, Please visit the following website for pictures of everyday life in the nahua village of Tepecxitla, as well as scenes from a wedding and the moyancuilia ceremony. http://www.deneenstreet.com/Mexico/tep1.htm To expand the thumbnails, click on the text link, not the thumbnail. And thanks to Dan Deneen for all this work. John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco García Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 México Oficina: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular (desde México): 044 (492) 544-5985 Celular (desde el extranjero) +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From zorrah at ATT.NET Sat Feb 7 18:57:35 2004 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 18:57:35 +0000 Subject: Anahuac Codices Online from UC Irvine Message-ID: I just found this website at UC Irvine that contains some interesting images from various Anahuac codices: http://www.lib.uci.edu/libraries/exhibits/meso/sacred.html One note: The website is not the best as far as navigation goes. One must pay attention to the �Back� and �Next� links at the bottom of each page AFTER selecting from one of the sections: �Aztec codices,� �Maya codices,� etc. Citlalin Xochime Nahuatl Tlahtolkalli http://nahuatl.info/nahuatl.htm From budelberger.richard at TISCALI.FR Sun Feb 8 14:49:03 2004 From: budelberger.richard at TISCALI.FR (Budelberger, Richard) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:49:03 +0100 Subject: Status Message-ID: 18 pluvi�se an CCXII (le 8 f�vrier 2004 d. c.-d. c. g.), 15h37. Dear Listeros, Bon, personne ne prenant la parole, je me lance, et en fran�ais. Merci de ne pas r�pondre � ce message, et encombrer � NAHUAT-L � avec plus que ce qui est n�cessaire. ----- Message d'origine ----- De : � : Envoy� : vendredi 6 f�vrier 2004 22:40 Objet : Status > ���wQ�H�65�Z�:o�5�)�"�R�-�d��{��;l�i���!R�O����P9`t� > 7�o( �W�%3�Y��XW�yIKo��SZ���&k��f��]$����4, S�a:���Zy����Q�'^'S`��ɰ [...] L'ordinateur de Frances Karttunen est contamin� par un virus, qui a certainement �t� envoy� � tout son carnet d'adresse, dont les Dear Listeros de � NAHUAT-L �. Ce virus envoie ce type de message -- ici : � Status � --, accompagn� d'un fichier ex�cutable, � Document.cmd � de 22,5 Ko, lequel contient probablement � Mydoom �. Les pirates � l'origine de � Mydoom � poss�dent de solides complicit�s, car j'ai re�u le virus aussi via une adresse que je n'utilise jamais, et que donc seul mon fournisseur conna�t : les pirates ont r�ussi � p�n�trer son fichier de client�le. Il est certainement trop tard ; si des Dear Listeros ont ouvert ce genre de fichier joint, ils sont contamin�s, et contaminent les autres. Fin de ce message d'alerte. Je pense qu'il est inutile de s'�tendre davantage. Richard Budelberger. Autre endroit o� � Mydoom � a �t� rep�r� : l'UNAM de Mexico. From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 9 13:22:47 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 08:22:47 -0500 Subject: Status In-Reply-To: <025f01c3ee69$2db4b460$345424d5@william> Message-ID: There are, I'm sure, a lot of...if not most of...the folks on this listserv that don't speak French. This fellow's saying that Fran's computer has a virus that has likely spread to the list. Michael On Sun, 8 Feb 2004, Budelberger, Richard wrote: > 18 pluvi�se an CCXII (le 8 f�vrier 2004 d. c.-d. c. g.), 15h37. > > Dear Listeros, > > Bon, personne ne prenant la parole, je me lance, et en fran�ais. > Merci de ne pas r�pondre � ce message, et encombrer � NAHUAT-L � > avec plus que ce qui est n�cessaire. > > > ----- Message d'origine ----- > De : > � : > Envoy� : vendredi 6 f�vrier 2004 22:40 > Objet : Status > > > ���wQ�H�65�Z�:o�5�)�"�R�-�d��{��;l�i���!R�O����P9`t� > > 7�o( �W�%3�Y��XW�yIKo��SZ���&k��f��]$����4, S�a:���Zy����Q�'^'S`��ɰ > > [...] > > L'ordinateur de Frances Karttunen est contamin� par un virus, > qui a certainement �t� envoy� � tout son carnet d'adresse, dont > les Dear Listeros de � NAHUAT-L �. > > Ce virus envoie ce type de message -- ici : � Status � --, accompagn� > d'un fichier ex�cutable, � Document.cmd � de 22,5 Ko, lequel contient > probablement � Mydoom �. Les pirates � l'origine de � Mydoom � > poss�dent de solides complicit�s, car j'ai re�u le virus aussi via > une adresse que je n'utilise jamais, et que donc seul mon fournisseur > conna�t : les pirates ont r�ussi � p�n�trer son fichier de client�le. > > > Il est certainement trop tard ; si des Dear Listeros ont ouvert > ce genre de fichier joint, ils sont contamin�s, et contaminent les autres. > > > Fin de ce message d'alerte. Je pense qu'il est inutile de s'�tendre davantage. > > > > Richard Budelberger. > > > Autre endroit o� � Mydoom � a �t� rep�r� : l'UNAM de Mexico. > > > From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Feb 9 14:20:42 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 08:20:42 -0600 Subject: Status In-Reply-To: <025f01c3ee69$2db4b460$345424d5@william> Message-ID: In actual fact it is not Fran's computer that is infected, but that of someone else who had her address in the address book. This virus takes addresses in the address book of the infected computer and then sends e-mails as if they came from the other person. At 08:49 AM 2/8/2004, you wrote: >Dear Listeros, > > Bon, personne ne prenant la parole, je me lance, et en français. >Merci de ne pas répondre à ce message, et encombrer « NAHUAT-L » >avec plus que ce qui est nécessaire. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Feb 9 16:33:56 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:33:56 -0600 Subject: Sneeze Message-ID: In the Informantes de Sahagun text "Augurios y abusiones" translated by Alfredo Lopez Austin, a sneeze is given as "acucholiztli" and to sneeze is "acuchoa" On the other hand Molina gives "ecuxoliztli" as a sneeze and "ecuxoa" as to sneeze. Quite simply, who's more accurate? John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From idiez at MAC.COM Mon Feb 9 16:52:44 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:52:44 -0600 Subject: Sneeze In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20040209103106.01ef2ec0@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Fritz, The a/e variation is not a problem, because this is common in many words between dialects: cuepa/cuapa, miyac/miyec, àacatl/èecatl, etc. As you know, the ç/z/c, ch, x, tz were confused by many writers of nahuatl in the colonial period and continue to be confused today. Both dialects of Huastecan nahuatl that I work with (western and eastern) use "acuexoa" for "to sneeze", so I would opt for the "x". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco García Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 México Oficina: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular (desde México): 044 (492) 544-5985 Celular (desde el extranjero) +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Feb 9, 2004, at 10:33 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > In the Informantes de Sahagun text "Augurios y abusiones" translated by > Alfredo Lopez Austin, a sneeze is given as "acucholiztli" and to > sneeze is > "acuchoa" On the other hand Molina gives "ecuxoliztli" as a sneeze and > "ecuxoa" as to sneeze. Quite simply, who's more accurate? > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at mrs.umn.edu > From idiez at MAC.COM Wed Feb 11 18:49:16 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:49:16 -0600 Subject: syllable-initial aspiration Message-ID: Listeros, I've got a problem. I have/had pretty much decided to use Carochi's spelling conventions for writing modern nahuatl. This means that the aspiration/glottal stop is represented with a grave accent over the preceding vowel. This is cool, since it normally occurs as the last consonant of a syllable which is followed by another consonant (ni-yà-qui, nic-qual-chì-chi-huaz, etc.). In a few instances, it occurs before two vowels (àacatl, for example), and is poses no problem for the accent. However, I have two example of what seem to be aspirations at the beginning of a syllable. If these are indeed the aspiration consonant, and not just another consonant whose sound has been modified (such as the first of two /k/s being pronounced as an aspiration (niccacqui, I heard it), then I'm going to have to find another way of representing it in writing. The two examples are (I use an "h" to represent the aspiration here): 1. noha (still, todavía) This is not like ah-a-catl. The aspiration supposedly only followes short vowels, and the "o" of "noha" is long. 2. cenha (the same, igual, lo mismo) Any ideas? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco García Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 México Oficina: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular (desde México): 044 (492) 544-5985 Celular (desde el extranjero) +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Wed Feb 11 22:29:51 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:29:51 +0000 Subject: syllable-initial aspiration Message-ID: idiez at MAC.COM wrote:- > I've got a problem. I have/had pretty much decided to use > Carochi's spelling conventions for writing modern nahuatl. > ... represented with a grave accent over the preceding vowel. The trouble is that all too often the email mishandles accented vowels. I prefer [h] or apostrophe for glottal stop. From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Feb 12 02:38:35 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:38:35 -0500 Subject: syllable-initial aspiration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear John, Ca you share with us your rationale for representing a consonant with a diacritic as though it were a quality of the vowel preceding the consonant? Fran From idiez at MAC.COM Thu Feb 12 03:59:58 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:59:58 -0600 Subject: syllable-initial aspiration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fran, First of all, I'm not going to respond with a short and direct answer, because this is not the problem that is bugging the hell out of me. I am trying to decide upon a single system for writing older and modern nahuatl. Most of the many newer conventions used for dealing with modern nahuatl stink, for two reasons: 1. they introduce letters such as the "k" and the "w", which have the effect of opening up a Grand Canyon between living indians and their cultural legacy (the canon of older nahuatl writing). I think tradition is important; 2. they tend to have many errors, like confusing the glottal stop, the "-uh", and the /k/ before another /k/; and not representing word-final "n"s, etc., etc. This also bugs me, because I believe people have a right to understand how their language works, at the very least through the intuitive information contained in a well structured writing system. I don't consider the glottal stop to be a quality of the preceding vowel. I only consider this option because Carochi used it, and his writing system is pretty representative of the corpus of colonial mundane documents. If I really wanted to be as close as possible to the colonial system, obviously I would just ignore the glottal stop altogether, but then, neither I nor my students would be able to deal with the language academically. And that is precisely what we are about to begin to do here: re-elevate nahuatl to an academic stature at the university. We will teach native-speakers to read and write in nahuatl. They will read older texts, and comment on them in nahuatl verbally and in written form. They will discuss important issues and write about them in nahuatl, and participate in the production of dictionaries, grammars, and other texts. I've probably written too many times to the list about this. It's just that I haven't been able to make up my mind, and I don't want to keep subjecting my students to changes in writing systems. Just as you did with your dictionary, I need to decide upon a traditional system with sufficient minimum modifications to make it academically usefull. But at the same time I don't want to be part of the club of researchers who think they are being cool by creating a new writing system. OK, it looks like I've painted myself into a corner. And in this case, that's good. John On Feb 11, 2004, at 8:38 PM, Frances Karttunen wrote: > Dear John, > > Ca you share with us your rationale for representing a consonant with a > diacritic as though it were a quality of the vowel preceding the > consonant? > > Fran > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco García Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 México Oficina: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular (desde México): 044 (492) 544-5985 Celular (desde el extranjero) +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From budelberger.richard at TISCALI.FR Thu Feb 12 02:40:00 2004 From: budelberger.richard at TISCALI.FR (Budelberger, Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 03:40:00 +0100 Subject: syllable-initial aspiration Message-ID: 22 pluviôse an CCXII (le 12 février 2004 d. c.-d. c. g.), 03h35. ----- Message d'origine ----- De : À : Envoyé : mercredi 11 février 2004 19:49 Objet : syllable-initial aspiration > Listeros, > I've got a problem. I have/had pretty much decided to use Carochi's > spelling conventions for writing modern nahuatl. Bravo ! > The two examples are (I use an "h" to represent the aspiration here): 1. noha (still, todavía) This is not like ah-a-catl. The aspiration supposedly only followes short vowels, and the "o" of "noha" is long. 2. cenha (the same, igual, lo mismo) Any ideas? Cf. uel . Richard Budelberger. From micc2 at COX.NET Thu Feb 12 21:42:18 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:42:18 -0800 Subject: syllable-initial aspiration In-Reply-To: <002b01c3f18c$63d00b00$215624d5@william> Message-ID: Hi everyone, I recently bought Louise M. Burkhart's "Holy Wednesday" , which I sadly found out was all translated from the Nahuatl into English. At the end of the book there is an order form for a PDF version of the original Nahuatl texts. I contacted the Univ. of Penn. and I was told it is no longer available. Does anyone have a copy they can share? Or perhaps Professor Burkhart's e-mail address? thanks in advance, mario e. aguilar www.mexicayotl.org From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Feb 12 23:45:15 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:45:15 -0500 Subject: syllable-initial aspiration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear John, I don't have any solution to offer off the bat about how to represent the problematical syllable-initial aspiration in Nahuatl of which you give an example (except maybe to ask whether it's segmental or prosodic). But I do have some other thoughts I'd like to share. As long as a language is unwritten, or is written mainly with ideographic characters (like Chinese), or--as in Mesoamerica--with a mixed system of ideographs and rebus-writing (word x, in full or in part, sounds like word y), people don't seem to get hung up on spelling. Once an alphabetic writing system comes into play, it seems inevitable that people confuse the language with the elements of the writing system. They talk about "the letters of the language" instead of about the letters being used to represent the sounds of the language. Purism arises, so that some ways of representation are considered "correct" and others "wrong" or "corrupt." If you think this only happens to layfolk, have a look at the censorious things Andrews has to say in the second edition of his Intro. to Classical Nahuatl. Yikes! There's no virtue inherent in written characters. For the sound system of any given language there are many ways (actually, an infinity of ways) of representing utterances in that language that are fairly internally consistent. Representing a sound with the letter "c" or the letter "k" is not a matter of correctness, as you know so well. But context (historical, social, conventional) can make people take umbrage about one as over against another. Think, for instance, of the connotations for English speakers of "Amerika" spelled with a "k." Most languages have some consonants and/or vowels that don't correspond to the usual uses of the letters of the Roman (or Greek or Cyrillic) alphabet (especially as they exist in boxes of type). Many/most languages have series of distinctions for which these alphabets offer no resources. So what is to be done in creating an alphabetical system of writing for such a language? One device is to add diacritics to the existing letters: a bar here, an accent there, a cedilla underneath. In Swedish there is a little "o" set on top of "a" to represent the same sound that Danish writes as "aa," which in turn is different from what "aa" represents in Finnish. In Norway an "o" with a slash written through it represents the equivalent to what in Swedish is written with an umlaut over the "o." Any and all these solutions work equally well as long as nobody gets his or her nose out of joint about nationality. Another is to create digraphs: two letters together to represent a single sound. There are plenty of digraphs used in the traditional writing of Nahuatl. Even the writing systems for Nahuatl that use "k" and "w" usually also use "tl" and "ch." Another way to create more letters to represent sounds is to turn some letters and even numbers around (in the old days, taking them out of the box of type and inverting them or setting them sideways). So you get the number "8" on its side in some printed Algonquian. In Yucatec May, there used to be a backwards "c" that has since been replaced with the digraph "dz." Old writing systems for other Mayan languages were studded with numbers used as letters to represent glottalized consonants. The International Phonetic Alphabet and the American system of phonetic notation (that differs in some details from IPA) were created as tools to represent pronunciation independently of language. A [k] in IPA is [k] no matter what language is being represented. There are no digraphs, but instead "one character for one sound." This is where the support for "k" and "w" in Nahuatl comes from. Naturally this runs into all sorts of problems, because utterances in particular languages exist as the product not of a concatenated string of unitary sound units but within the realm of a set of contrasts (alike/different) that varies from language to language. Fine phonetic transcription is loaded with little squiggles and flourishes, most of which are unnecessary and irritating for speakers of the language in question. But until a fieldworker approaches native command of a language, s/he doesn't know what is important and what is redundant. That's a field linguist's job, and the friars who adapted the the letters of the Roman alphabet to represent Mesoamerican languages were proto-field linguists of very high caliber. The thing that everyone tends to lose sight of is that the letters, including special characters, are just symbols. They are not inherent in any particular language. But there are things that ARE inherent in a particular language. If language X has a contrasting series of voiceless and voiced consonants, then fine. The Roman alphabet has p/b t/d k/g etc. to represent those contrasts. But if the language in question has a series of contrasting plain/glottalized consonants, for instance, then some convention (a diacritic, digraphs, special characters) is needed. Suppose a language has a contrast of plain/aspirated consonants. They could be written as p/ph t/th k/kh. Or p/bh t/dh k/gh. Or even the same old p/b t/d k/g. As long as everyone is in on what is being used and what it means in this language. BUT, using p/b t/d k/g could lead someone to think that the contrast is voiceless/voiced. To the ear of a person who is a native speaker of a language that contrasts voiceless/voiced, unaspirated/aspirated sounds just the same. Even spectrograms don't reliably show a difference, because it is the systematic phonology of each language that is in question. Another issue is, as you have said so eloquently, tradition. Once a language has used one writing system for a while and has a body of written/printed literature, a spelling reform (like the one so actively promoted for English by George Bernard Shaw), no matter how "logical," separates the post-reform reader from the pre-reform literature. Most linguists move nearly unconsciously from IPA to the American phonetic system to whatever alphabetic conventions a particular language uses, but most nonlinguists get frustrated. (Linguists aren't immune to frustration. I never got the hang of Cyrillic, so in Russia I carried around a small notebook and laboriously transliterated what was on street signs in order to find out where I was. It would take me ages to get to places.) Likewise, in a situation of daily bilingualism, the difference between, say, the conventions of written Spanish and the conventions of writing Nahuatl with "k"s and "w"s can be counterproductive when the teaching of reading and writing is going on in school in the dominant language, Spanish. And, of course, there are matters of ideology. The new spelling conventions adopted for the Mayan languages were based in part on decisions that have less to do with the sound systems of the languages involved than with matters of identity. This was equally true of the spelling conventions for Nahuatl proposed and adopted at the Aztec Congress held in Milpa Alta during the presidency of Lázaro Cárdenas. When one struggles with the type of questions to which you are addressing yourself, there are multiple dimensions including at least the following: The way the language actually works. The way the language has been written in the past and the existing body of literature so written/printed. The subjective feelings speakers of the language have about one particular writing system over another. For instance, do Nahuatl speakers wish to maximize the difference in appearance from the way written Spanish looks on the page? Or do they find a sense of unity with their past in the way colonial-period written/printed Nahuatl looks on the page? In this matter there are bound to be majority and minority opinions. I have heard some Nahuatl speakers reject the Aztec Congress spelling system as looking "bolshevik." (It's not coincidental that Diego Rivera and his buddies hung out in Milpa Alta during the 1930s.) On the other hand, some people might associate the Carochi spelling (or the Molina spelling, the Olmos spelling, etc.) with the evangelization of the indigenous worlds in a profoundly negative way. So what it comes down to is that it must be up to the speakers of a language how they will write it (or even IF they will write it). It's up to the rest of us to ask, listen, and respect even if we disagree and choose to use a different system for clarity among ourselves. Personally, I think the 16th and 17th century friars did a superb job of field linguistics and created very durable writing systems in which a huge corpus of writing in Nahuatl exists. There were a couple of things they under-represented, and I prefer to simply augment the traditional system, as Carochi did, but differing in a couple of minor details, one of them having to do with the "saltillo" (which, then as now, was apparently variously pronounced in different areas but had the same FUNCTION whatever its pronunciation). By writing the saltillo as a diacritic over the preceding character, Carochi gave the impression that the saltillo was a characteristic of the vowel: a glottalization of the vowel or a rise in the pitch of the vowel. Yet we know that these changes to the vowel were contextual. They happened when the vowel was followed by a particular consonant, albeit a consonant Spanish speakers had difficulty hearing or describing. One consequence of this was that in the 1930s Benjamin Lee Whorf, a perfectly good linguist, went off on a tangent and described Nahuatl as a tone language. (Lyle Campbell and I have published an essay on this as an introduction to our edition of Whorf's Milpa Alta field notes.) In Nahuatl, vowels followed by saltillo behave systematically like vowels followed by other consonants. Since the distinction between open and closed syllables is a crucial one in Nahuatl morphology, I have admired the choice Andrews made to follow the sporadic usage of Molina, Sahagún, and others in writing the saltillo with the letter "h." This consideration seems to me to trump other arguments, such as wanting to look like Carochi because Carochi is somehow the best and purest example of written and printed Nahuatl. (After all, Carochi was unsuccessful in his own time in getting Nahuatl speakers to adopt his package of orthographic improvements, so it's hardly sacred.) Likewise, I find it strange that some of my colleagues are so fond of the cedilla, as though writing c-cedilla is better or clearer or more authentic than "z." I really hope that for older Nahuatl, we non-Nahuah follow the lead of Andrews and doesn't further proliferate writing conventions. What Nahuatl-speakers chose to do is entirely up to them, and we need to observe and learn from them. That said, in the course of time and over the geography of indigenous Mexico, there has been a lot of variation and some historical change leading to mergers of other consonants and consonant clusters with the realization of what we call "saltillo." This is a real challenge to modern writing. Does one write how a word sounds (as one would in IPA) or as the word is morphologically and has been historically? The latter strategy has been the source of immense problems in English spelling, which often reflects a past pronunciation/derivation of something that has since undergone change- being pushed in one end and out the other of the Great Vowel Shift, for example. Since as you describe it, you are engaging in a language revitalization project to: "re-elevate nahuatl to an academic stature at the university. We will teach native-speakers to read and write in nahuatl. They will read older texts, and comment on them in nahuatl verbally and in written form. They will discuss important issues and write about them in nahuatl, and participate in the production of dictionaries, grammars, and other texts." I'd like to recommend an article about decisions about representation of specific languages: "Issues of Standardization and Community in Aboriginal Language Lexicography" by Keren Rice and Leslie Saxon. This appears in Making Dictionaries: Preserving Indigenous Languages of the Americas, edited by William Frawley, Kenneth C. Hill, and Pamela Munro. Published in 2002 by the University of California Press. I recommend the whole book to listeros with an interest in these matters. Skip the theoretical section and cut directly to the "Indigenous Communities" and the "Personal Accounts" sections. There are two (!) articles in there about Nahuatl. Fran From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Fri Feb 13 00:13:16 2004 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:13:16 EST Subject: syllable-initial aspiration Message-ID: Listeros: With all due respect [and I mean that sincerely] to Andrews, I second Fran's comment. Ye ixquich. Barry D. Sell In a message dated 2/12/04 3:52:55 PM, karttu at NANTUCKET.NET writes: << Once an alphabetic writing system comes into play, it seems inevitable that people confuse the language with the elements of the writing system. They talk about "the letters of the language" instead of about the letters being used to represent the sounds of the language. Purism arises, so that some ways of representation are considered "correct" and others "wrong" or "corrupt." If you think this only happens to layfolk, have a look at the censorious things Andrews has to say in the second edition of his Intro. to Classical Nahuatl. Yikes! >> From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Fri Feb 13 00:15:22 2004 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:15:22 EST Subject: syllable-initial aspiration Message-ID: Mario: The Nahuatl of Louise's HOLY WEDNESDAY will appear in full transcription (with a couple of minor corrections) in volume four of NAHUATL THEATER, due out in 2007. Ye ixquich. Barry D. Sell In a message dated 2/12/04 1:46:02 PM, micc2 at COX.NET writes: << Hi everyone, I recently bought Louise M. Burkhart's "Holy Wednesday" , which I sadly found out was all translated from the Nahuatl into English. At the end of the book there is an order form for a PDF version of the original Nahuatl texts. I contacted the Univ. of Penn. and I was told it is no longer available. Does anyone have a copy they can share? Or perhaps Professor Burkhart's e-mail address? thanks in advance, mario e. aguilar www.mexicayotl.org >> From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 16 03:47:40 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:47:40 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 5 Message-ID: I have never lost my awe of the work that Molina did in his three dictionaries. Nevertheless, there are a few scribo (scribographical??) errors to be found. I wanted to share this one with you from 1571, S/N, f55v2. His definition is "enterrado"; how does the following word mean this? And, of course, what is the error? >8-) tlatlalanaquilli Joe From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 16 11:38:52 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 06:38:52 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: List, Among the altepetl of 18th-century Tlaxcala, there were three common exchange units in use: the mahuizotzin, the teletzin and the xolitzintli. The mahuizotzin is the most commercial, teletzin has political-legal connotations and xolitzintli is best associated with small-scale "luxury" gifts, such as sweets at holidays. If anyone has comparative data to share, I'd be happy to receive it. Regarding tlatlalanaquilli, it seems to mean "lo metido en la tierra" and to be lacking a middle l if it is using tlalli + tlan. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Mon Feb 16 12:30:52 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:30:52 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 2/15/04 10:47 PM, r. joe campbell at campbel at INDIANA.EDU wrote: > I have never lost my awe of the work that Molina did in his three > dictionaries. Nevertheless, there are a few scribo (scribographical??) > errors to be found. I wanted to share this one with you from 1571, S/N, > f55v2. His definition is "enterrado"; how does the following word mean > this? And, of course, what is the error? >8-) > > tlatlalanaquilli > > Joe > An extraneous -an- has insinuated itself into the verb tla:l-aquia: < tl:al-li 'earth' and aquia: 'to insert something' < aqui 'to enter, to fit in' From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 16 22:52:16 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:52:16 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think what Fran says is logical, but I don't think that *tlatlalaquilli is what Molina intended to write.. What I think is the scribographical error (Joe, have you been reading too much of that new-fangled Andrew's malarky?). Well, I think the only thing Molina did was an l. I think the word should actually be tlatlallanaquilli. What this is is rare but attested embedding of a postposition inside a verb, i.e., -tlal- 'earth' plus tlan 'towards'. There's a case like this in the Florentine: amotetechacia 'y'all's (presents) for approaching someone'. This is a verb-derived instrumental phrase, where -tetechaci- is the verb and tech is the embedded postposition. Michael On Mon, 16 Feb 2004, Frances Karttunen wrote: > on 2/15/04 10:47 PM, r. joe campbell at campbel at INDIANA.EDU wrote: > > > I have never lost my awe of the work that Molina did in his three > > dictionaries. Nevertheless, there are a few scribo (scribographical??) > > errors to be found. I wanted to share this one with you from 1571, S/N, > > f55v2. His definition is "enterrado"; how does the following word mean > > this? And, of course, what is the error? >8-) > > > > tlatlalanaquilli > > > > Joe > > > > > An extraneous -an- has insinuated itself into the verb tla:l-aquia: < > tl:al-li 'earth' and aquia: 'to insert something' < aqui 'to enter, to fit > in' > > > From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Tue Feb 17 17:25:36 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:25:36 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: These are interesting examples that seem to evince the same two phenomena, one that contextual affixes sometimes freeze to verb related statements and second that Nahuatl speakers sometimes add semantically empty sounds to sustain a good phonological aspect. I've more noticed the later in the material I work with but am unable, right now, to comb through it for illustrative examples. I'll try to pass on relevant ones when I can. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM Wed Feb 18 15:38:48 2004 From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:38:48 +0100 Subject: Libros de Galarza Message-ID: Hola Arturo, Te agradezco tus indicaciones. Visitè el sitio de la Univ. Veracruzana pero esta tan mal hecho, que no encontre nada. Seguire buscando. Mil gracias. Susana (una mexicana en Roma) From idiez at MAC.COM Thu Feb 19 13:17:17 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 07:17:17 -0600 Subject: new class 4 verb Message-ID: A while ago, someone asked for help compiling class 4 verbs. Well, here's a new one from the Eastern Huasteca: "nahua", "to hold, embrance or hug someone". Here is the sentence from a recent diary entry of a native speaker: "Moquetzqui huan quinecqui ma nicnahua. Huahcauh nicnahuahqui." "She stood up and wanted me to hold her. Then I held her." John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco García Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 México Oficina: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular (desde México): 044 (492) 544-5985 Celular (desde el extranjero) +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Thu Feb 19 22:48:04 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:48:04 -0700 Subject: Question about Garibay Message-ID: Does anyone know of a citation for a statement by A. Garibay to the effect that the post-Tula migration of the people of Xolotl may have been Otomi speakers? Richley From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Sun Feb 22 21:33:05 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 16:33:05 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl word serious 1 Message-ID: Lixteroxtzitzin, Most of the words that I present for morphological commentary are ones that I'm reasonably sure that I already know the answers for |8-) (that's how I think I know that they are interesting enough to occupy your attention). I assume that they will generate some activity and discussion that will benefit some people, including myself. My words for today are mainly for self-benefit. They have lingered on my "not done yet" queue for a long time, partly because there were simply so many other words yammering for attention and partly because my candidates for analyses for these didn't immediately result in the warm glow of self-satisfaction that comes when something goes "click". Today I got an "almost-click" and I wondered if I could your comments on the following words. nimazatlatlacahuiloa domar potros nitetlatlacahuiloa atraer con halagos nitetlatlacahuiloa assegurar con engan~o a alguno mazatlatlacaahuiloani domador tal (de potros) nitetlatlacaahuiloa rogar halagando You will notice a difference in spelling between the two groups of words. I would appreciate any comments that will lead me either to drop my present hypothesis or feel more confidence in it. Saludos, Joe p.s. I will, of course, tell y'all what my present ideas are -- I'm keeping them in a sealed envelope till later... From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 23 22:05:49 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:05:49 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 6 Message-ID: This word caught my eye today and I thought it bowl y'all over: nixcaxihui entortarse Joe From budelberger.richard at TISCALI.FR Tue Feb 24 01:24:00 2004 From: budelberger.richard at TISCALI.FR (Budelberger, Richard) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:24:00 +0100 Subject: Question about Garibay Message-ID: 4 ventôse an CCXII (le 24 février 2004 d. c.-d. c. g.), 02h13. ----- Message d'origine ----- De : Richley Crapo À : Envoyé : jeudi 19 février 2004 23:48 Objet : Question about Garibay > Does anyone know of a citation for a statement by A. Garibay > to the effect that the post-Tula migration of the people of Xolotl > may have been Otomi speakers? > Richley Christian Duverger, « L'origine des Aztèques », Seuil, 1983, p. 216 : Les Aztèques à Tula La magnificence de Tula a vécu. Mais le territoire -- comme toutes les terres du Plateau central -- demeure occupé. Au moment de l'arrivée des Mexitin, les possesseurs de la terre sont les Otomi ¹ ; probablement la région de Tula n'a-t-elle jamais cessé d'être occupée par un fond de population otomi. Mais durant l'époque classique, ces populations autochtones avaient dû subir deux dominations successives, d'abord celle des gens des Terres Chaudes puis celle des Nahua représentés selon les sources par les gens de Xolotl, de Mixcoatl ou de Tezcatlipoca. Les derniers Tolteco-Nahua réfugiés à Colhuacan, l'ancienne métropole toltèque n'était plus qu'un modeste hameau d'aspect désolé. From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Feb 24 20:21:27 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:21:27 -0600 Subject: Icniuhtli Message-ID: I was contacted by a reporter wanting to verify a bit of information given to him in an interview he is doing. He wanted to know if in fact the word for friend [icniuhtli; nocniuh] literally means "one who gives me happiness" I cannot see it, but maybe there is something I'm missing here. Help? John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From micc2 at COX.NET Tue Feb 24 21:18:50 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:18:50 -0800 Subject: Icniuhtli In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20040224141828.01fba5d0@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Hi John, The reporter Gil, is doing an in-depth ( I hope!) story about our dance circle. We told him that in the vernacular of today's danza, there are many dancer who use the term "ahuiliztli" or happiness to mean "friend". The teaching behind this for our children is that true happiness come to us not in terms of materialism, but through the wealth of interpersonal relationships we build, specifically the bonds that build between danzantes of different groups, towns, and now, nations. It is similar to our use of "compadrito" and "comadrita". We call each other by these terms even though we have no formal "compadrazgo" (such as taking someone's child to baptism, first communion, etc.) we are compadres/comadres by virtue of being danzantes. This use of the term " happiness" to mean friend, appears to me, is very much in keeping with the "disfrasismos" of old times such as "In xochitl in cuicatl", In altepetl, etc. mario www.mexicayotl.org John F. Schwaller wrote: > I was contacted by a reporter wanting to verify a bit of information > given > to him in an interview he is doing. He wanted to know if in fact the > word > for friend [icniuhtli; nocniuh] literally means "one who gives me > happiness" > > I cannot see it, but maybe there is something I'm missing here. > > Help? > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at mrs.umn.edu > From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Tue Feb 24 21:39:13 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:39:13 -0700 Subject: Question about Garibay Message-ID: Thank you for the information. Richley >>> budelberger.richard at TISCALI.FR 02/23 6:24 PM >>> 4 ventôse an CCXII (le 24 février 2004 d. c.-d. c. g.), 02h13. ----- Message d'origine ----- De : Richley Crapo À : Envoyé : jeudi 19 février 2004 23:48 Objet : Question about Garibay > Does anyone know of a citation for a statement by A. Garibay > to the effect that the post-Tula migration of the people of Xolotl > may have been Otomi speakers? > Richley Christian Duverger, « L'origine des Aztèques », Seuil, 1983, p. 216 : Les Aztèques à Tula La magnificence de Tula a vécu. Mais le territoire -- comme toutes les terres du Plateau central -- demeure occupé. Au moment de l'arrivée des Mexitin, les possesseurs de la terre sont les Otomi * ; probablement la région de Tula n'a-t-elle jamais cessé d'être occupée par un fond de population otomi. Mais durant l'époque classique, ces populations autochtones avaient dû subir deux dominations successives, d'abord celle des gens des Terres Chaudes puis celle des Nahua représentés selon les sources par les gens de Xolotl, de Mixcoatl ou de Tezcatlipoca. Les derniers Tolteco-Nahua réfugiés à Colhuacan, l'ancienne métropole toltèque n'était plus qu'un modeste hameau d'aspect désolé. From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Thu Feb 26 18:35:31 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 13:35:31 -0500 Subject: Icniuhtli In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20040224141828.01fba5d0@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Feb 2004, John F. Schwaller wrote: > I was contacted by a reporter wanting to verify a bit of information given > to him in an interview he is doing. He wanted to know if in fact the word > for friend [icniuhtli; nocniuh] literally means "one who gives me happiness" > Fritz, If the reporter is trying to *verify* whether the word for friend in Nahuatl (icniuhtli; nocniuh) literally means "one who gives me happiness", it depends on what he means by "means". If you get at "means" in the way that we usually do by asking, "What is another way to say "icniuhtli" or "nocniuh" in Spanish"?, an accurate answer (and the one that you would get in any Nahuatl speaking community) is "hermano" and "mi hermano". This kind of answer also fulfills the request for *strict* meaning, *literal* meaning. If you asked a Nahuatl speaker for the *meaning* of one of the following Nahuatl words, he would be likely to reply with one of Molina's equivalents (as below), but not with "hermano". teaahuialtiani. plazentero, o halague�o. teaahuiltiani. halague�o. teahuiltiani. plazentero o regozijado, que regozija alos otros. tetlatlacaahuiloani. halague�o. tetlatlacahuiloani. halague�o. tepapaquiltiani. cosa [o persona] que da plazer y alegria. So if a reporter seeks to *verify* (determine the *truth*) of the claim that "icniuhtli" literally means "one that gives me happiness", the black-and-white answer is "no". However, people who get only the black-and-white version of truth and the interaction between language and the world and our societies get a cartoon about reality -- a stick figure representation, but hardly one that you would prefer in all circumstances to a shades-of-gray photograph or a gigabytes-rich-color one. Setting aside the sober, objective "facts" that we find in dictionaries or that we get from language community members in answer to requests for short equivalences in meaning, it is possible for one community to branch off in their use of a word and adopt it for a different meaning. In fact, I imagine that something analogous to this (i.e., using a combination of novel elements to replace an old one for a particular meaning) happened when "tzontecomatl" encroached on the usage territory of "cua:itl". Some member of the community decided that "tzon(tli)-tecomatl" ('hair-gourd') was more descriptive than the simple label "cua:itl" ('head') or more cute or mod. So did the people that he spoke to -- and lexical change took place, leaving "cua:itl" out of independent use in sentences, but still embedded in many words which continue to be used (cuacuahueh, bovine; tlacuaatequiah, they baptize; cuacaxtic, shaped like a bowl in top; ninocuachalania, I knock myself on the head, etc.) But this involves an unradical change involving a word and its referent. If I understand the "friend" / "happiness" example correctly, the innovation consists of taking a word which refers to a notion which is subjectively *associated* with another notion and transferring the label. I highly admire the motivation for doing this, since it involves the attempt to improve the values of children. When those children become adults, the people who deal with them will benefit from the society that they swim in. To bring my tlahtolmecayotl to an end, my main point is simply that we should recognize the innovation as linguistically very unusual -- and as leaving the Nahuatl language unchanged. When people ask about a word in **Nahuatl**, they want to know about conventional associations of words and meanings. --And the point under discussion might well be mentioned as a footnote. Yotlan, Joe From idiez at MAC.COM Thu Feb 26 21:13:22 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 15:13:22 -0600 Subject: maybe another class 4 Message-ID: An eastern huastecan speaker of nahuatl will say: "Tlahuel tiohuih", "You are a very difficult person," and "Tlahuel tiohuihqueh", "You (pl) are very difficult people." So, "ohuih" is the preterite agentive of what probably was either a class 3 (ohuia) or a class 4(ohui) verb. A similar case points to the possible verbal origin of "oc", "still". While older central Mexican nahuatl gives, "occe", "another", and "occequin", "others", modern huastecan nahuatl gives, "ceyoc", "another", and "ceyoqueh", "others". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco García Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 México Oficina: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular (desde México): 044 (492) 544-5985 Celular (desde el extranjero) +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Sun Feb 1 21:58:58 2004 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 16:58:58 EST Subject: ANIMAL & MLA Message-ID: Elizabeth: Glad that ANIMAL got there. I would be most interested in any comments you have regarding similarities and differences between the Spanish and Nahuatl versions. We cannot touch the play stuff - sigh, but that's the deal we have with U of Ok Press. Any thoughts on any other genre? Maybe it would be a good idea for me to write and get more info. Ye ixquich. Barry In a message dated 2/1/04 10:27:13 AM, Elizabethmadrid at cs.com writes: << I just received the animal draft. Many thanks. I am intrigued by the MLA call for proposals. What part of the project could we publish with them without encroaching on OK? It would be a very important public to reach if we could. >> From mosquerd at UNION.EDU Mon Feb 2 01:33:58 2004 From: mosquerd at UNION.EDU (Daniel Mosquera) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 20:33:58 -0500 Subject: ANIMAL & MLA In-Reply-To: <176.24c977df.2d4ed0a2@aol.com> Message-ID: Barry, I am not sure whether this message was intended for Nahuat-l (it was thorugh the list I saw it). I do not believe it pertains to me, directly, but if it should, let me know. I am a bit confused about its content. daniel Amapohuani at AOL.COM wrote: >Elizabeth: > >Glad that ANIMAL got there. I would be most interested in any comments you >have regarding similarities and differences between the Spanish and Nahuatl >versions. > >We cannot touch the play stuff - sigh, but that's the deal we have with U of >Ok Press. Any thoughts on any other genre? > >Maybe it would be a good idea for me to write and get more info. > >Ye ixquich. >Barry > >In a message dated 2/1/04 10:27:13 AM, Elizabethmadrid at cs.com writes: > ><< I just received the animal draft. Many thanks. I am intrigued by the MLA >call for proposals. What part of the project could we publish with them >without encroaching on OK? It would be a very important public to reach if we >could. >> > > > > -- Daniel O. Mosquera Assistant Professor of Spanish and Latin American Studies Dept of Modern Languages and Lits. Union College Schenectady NY 12308 Tel: (518) 3886415 Fax: (518) 3886462 From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Mon Feb 2 02:00:49 2004 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 21:00:49 EST Subject: ANIMAL & MLA Message-ID: Daniel: Just my error. I meant to send it to Elizabeth but I left the nahuat-l url in by accident. When I saw what I did - too late of course - I then sent the same message to the right address. We cannot do any play stuff - but if you have any suggestions re any other material, let me know and maybe we could work on it together. Ye ixquich. Barry In a message dated 2/1/04 5:44:45 PM, mosquerd at UNION.EDU writes: << Barry, I am not sure whether this message was intended for Nahuat-l (it was thorugh the list I saw it). I do not believe it pertains to me, directly, but if it should, let me know. I am a bit confused about its content. daniel Amapohuani at AOL.COM wrote: >Elizabeth: > >Glad that ANIMAL got there. I would be most interested in any comments you >have regarding similarities and differences between the Spanish and Nahuatl >versions. > >We cannot touch the play stuff - sigh, but that's the deal we have with U of >Ok Press. Any thoughts on any other genre? > >Maybe it would be a good idea for me to write and get more info. > >Ye ixquich. >Barry > >In a message dated 2/1/04 10:27:13 AM, Elizabethmadrid at cs.com writes: > ><< I just received the animal draft. Many thanks. I am intrigued by the MLA >call for proposals. What part of the project could we publish with them >without encroaching on OK? It would be a very important public to reach if we >could. >> >> From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Mon Feb 2 21:56:21 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:56:21 -0700 Subject: Geography Question Message-ID: Is anyone on the list aware of a pre-Hispanic site named Teotlixco? If so, where was it located? Richley From svartronic at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 2 22:59:17 2004 From: svartronic at YAHOO.COM (Arturo Sandoval) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:59:17 -0800 Subject: Libros de Galarza In-Reply-To: <03e401c3e536$502b1020$b8c6623e@mexico> Message-ID: Susana,quizas puedas encontrar informaci?n en el website de la Universidad Veracruzana a trav?s de sus Centros de Idiomas (www.uv.mx).A continuaci?n un articulo que encontr? ahi referente al idioma n?huatl(UNIVERSO la Revista de los Universitarios,A?o 2 ? No. 44 ? Noviembre 5 de 2001 Xalapa ? Veracruz ? M?xico Publicaci?n Semanal ). Saludos Cordiales, Arturo ============================= El n?huatl: una lengua moderna Gina Sotelo R?os A diferencia de la manera en que los institutos imparten clases de ingl?s, franc?s o cualquier lengua extranjera, cuyo dominio es avalado con a?os de experiencia y estudios, la educaci?n ind?gena se lleva a cabo de manera muy emp?rica. Por un lado, porque no hay el material did?ctico adecuado para dar clases de una lengua ind?gena, pareciendo que basta con tener el conocimiento del n?huatl o totonaco para poder estar frente a un grupo; por otro, vale la pena preguntarse qu? pasa con los ling?istas, pues si bien existen muchos estudios de buena calidad sint?tica, de eso a que se pueda utilizar el conocimiento de manera accesible a la gente media una gran diferencia. Para aquellas personas que hablan el n?huatl sin analizarlo y acercarlo a quienes no lo conocen, Andr?s Hasler Hangert dio a conocer su texto Gram?tica moderna del n?huatl de Tehuac?n- Zongolica, donde concreta su inter?s por estudiar a profundidad la estructura de esa lengua aut?ctona en un documento de car?cter pr?ctico. Aunque los ling?istas hacen estudios que com?nmente se publican en ingl?s y son expuestos en foros internacionales, los responsables de la educaci?n ind?gena ni se enteran de ellos, afirma Hasler Hangert: "Se escriben textos con deformaciones de la lengua y esto se debe a que los investigadores-ling?istas no aterrizan sus conocimientos y las personas que escriben textos en idioma ind?gena improvisan al no tener la metodolog?a adecuada". A?ade que, a diferencia de los centros de idiomas e incluso la Real Academia Espa?ola, que tienen especialistas en la investigaci?n de las lenguas, en M?xico se considera a las lenguas ind?genas como de quinta o sexta categor?a, que pueden escribirse como sea. "Ellas son aptas para la vida moderna, para pensar en proyectos que incluyan la diversidad ling??stica, no como piezas de museo". Hasler Hangert menciona que ya es hora de dejar de ver a los ind?genas como si vivieran en un zool?gico o como ni?os chiquitos; hay que considerarlos como ciudadanos en igualdad de condiciones, como cualquier otro ser humano de una naci?n moderna. "Yo no culpo a la gente por no saber escribir bien las lenguas ind?genas, lo cual tiene una explicaci?n hist?rica: "Las lenguas ind?genas nunca han recibido ninguna atenci?n, por lo que he aqu? una propuesta de c?mo entenderlas mejor". Gram?tica moderna del n?huatl inicia con una presentaci?n de la dialectolog?a que estudia las variantes de una lengua en el ?mbito geogr?fico, el segundo cap?tulo est? dedicado a la clasificaci?n de las palabras, el tercero abarca su morfolog?a, uno m?s centra su atenci?n en c?mo se actualiza el n?huatl y, por ?ltimo, el autor dedica un apartado a la ortograf?a. --- Susana Moraleda-Dragotto wrote: > Por favor, alguien podria indicarme adonde se pueden conseguir los > siguientes libros de Joaquin Galarza? > > (1) "Conversacion Nahuatl-Espanol - metodo audiovisual para la ensenanza del > Nahuatl" > (2) "Amatl, amoxtli: el papel, el libro". > (3) "In amoxtli, in tlacatl - codices y vivencias" > (4) La palabra florida > > He buscado los 4 titulos en Internet, pero no encuentro nada pertinente. > > Mil gracias. > > Susana __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM Tue Feb 3 11:33:54 2004 From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 12:33:54 +0100 Subject: Libros de Galarza Message-ID: No, Monika, nadie me ha escrito nada desgraciadamente. Tu adonde has buscado? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monika Jarosz" To: Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 3:47 AM Subject: Re: Libros de Galarza > Hola Susana, > > Yo tambien trate de encontrar "Conversacion Nahuatl-Espanol - metodo > audiovisual para la ensenanza del Nahuatl" pero sin resultados. Me gustaria > saber si alguien te dio algunas sugerencias a donde lo podemos encontrar. > > Te voy a agradecer mucho tu ayuda > > Saludos > Monika > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susana Moraleda-Dragotto" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 4:17 PM > Subject: Libros de Galarza > > > > Por favor, alguien podria indicarme adonde se pueden conseguir los > > siguientes libros de Joaquin Galarza? > > > > (1) "Conversacion Nahuatl-Espanol - metodo audiovisual para la ensenanza > del > > Nahuatl" > > (2) "Amatl, amoxtli: el papel, el libro". > > (3) "In amoxtli, in tlacatl - codices y vivencias" > > (4) La palabra florida > > > > He buscado los 4 titulos en Internet, pero no encuentro nada pertinente. > > > > Mil gracias. > > > > Susana > > > > From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Tue Feb 3 16:51:55 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:51:55 -0500 Subject: Geography Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richley, It's mentioned in the Florentine (Book 11) under the discussion of yollotototl on p. 25 of the D&A edition. Also under tecuciltototl on p. 26. Saludos, Joe On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, Richley Crapo wrote: > Is anyone on the list aware of a pre-Hispanic site named Teotlixco? If so, where was it located? > Richley > > > From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Tue Feb 3 16:57:12 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 09:57:12 -0700 Subject: Geography Question Message-ID: By "southern sea" do you suppose he means Lake Chalco? Richley >>> campbel at INDIANA.EDU 02/03 9:51 AM >>> Richley, It's mentioned in the Florentine (Book 11) under the discussion of yollotototl on p. 25 of the D&A edition. Also under tecuciltototl on p. 26. Saludos, Joe On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, Richley Crapo wrote: > Is anyone on the list aware of a pre-Hispanic site named Teotlixco? If so, where was it located? > Richley > > > From Huehueteot at AOL.COM Tue Feb 3 17:01:05 2004 From: Huehueteot at AOL.COM (Huehueteot at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 12:01:05 EST Subject: Geography Question Message-ID: In a message dated 2/2/04 4:06:42 PM Central Standard Time, RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU writes: > Is anyone on the list aware of a pre-Hispanic site named Teotlixco? If so, > where was it located? > Richley > Richley: I remember the name, but I don't remember where it is located. Check the Medoza or Barlows Independant Seniorios. Unfortunately My copies of both are missing in a series of catastrophes and I cannot do it for you. My memory is that it is either in Puebla or Oaxaca in the Mixteca Alta or Canyada (can't do an enye). But I am not sure for it has been almost 30 years. Cheers Sam Ball -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Feb 3 17:09:51 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:09:51 -0600 Subject: Geography Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:51 AM 2/3/2004, you wrote: > > Is anyone on the list aware of a pre-Hispanic site named Teotlixco? > It's mentioned in the Florentine (Book 11) under the discussion of >yollotototl on p. 25 of the D&A edition. Also under tecuciltototl >on p. 26. In Peter Gerhard's Guide to the Historical Geography the closest is Teotlaxco located in the alcaldia mayor de Villa Alta de los Zapotecas John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Tue Feb 3 18:31:22 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 13:31:22 -0500 Subject: Geography Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This would be, typically, the Pacific Ocean. On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, Richley Crapo wrote: > By "southern sea" do you suppose he means Lake Chalco? > Richley > > >>> campbel at INDIANA.EDU 02/03 9:51 AM >>> > Richley, > > It's mentioned in the Florentine (Book 11) under the discussion of > yollotototl on p. 25 of the D&A edition. Also under tecuciltototl > on p. 26. > > Saludos, > > Joe > > > On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, Richley Crapo wrote: > > > Is anyone on the list aware of a pre-Hispanic site named Teotlixco? If so, where was it located? > > Richley > > > > > > > > > From svartronic at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 3 22:32:25 2004 From: svartronic at YAHOO.COM (Arturo Sandoval) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 14:32:25 -0800 Subject: Información sobre libros de GALARZA Message-ID: Hola Susana,te envio informacion sobre libros de GALARZA,espero te sea util, ARTURO ==================================================================================== GALARZA, Joaqu?n, Estudios de escritura ind?gena tradicional AZTECA-NAHUATL, M?xico, Archivo General de la Naci?n /Centre D'Etudes Mexicaines Et Centroamericaines, 1980. GALARZA, Joaquin GALARZA, Joaquin. 1980. Estudios de escritura indigena tradicional azteca-nahuatl. Mexico: Archivo General de la Nacion. GALARZA, Joaquin, and LOPEZ AVILA, Carlos GALARZA, Joaquin, and LOPEZ AVILA, Carlos. 1987. Conversacion nahuatl-espanol, metodo audiovisual para la ensenanza del nahuatl. Cuadernos de la Casa Chata 149. 172 p. Mexico: Centro de Investigaciones y Estudios Superiores en Antropologia Social (CIESAS) ???????????????????????????????????? Estudios de escritura ind?gena tradicional AZTECA-NAHUATL Galarza, Joaqu?n, M?xico, Archivo General de la Naci?n /Centre D'Etudes Mexicaines Et Centroamericaines, 1980, 164 p. Se exponen los problemas de investigaci?n existentes para estudiar el sistema de escritura tradicional n?huatl. Tambi?n se?ala una de las principales dificultades para leer manuscritos pictogr?ficos mexicanos porque cada p?gina es un verdadero ?cuadro gr?fico? . La soluci?n a esta lectura implica leer indistintamente pictogramos, glifos, signos fon?eticos y simb?licos y los elementos decorativos de la escritura. Valiosa aportaci?n al estudio, del n?huatl. FUENTE (http://www.agn.gob.mx/publi/publi_agn03.html) DISTRIBUCI?N Y VENTA DE PUBLICACIONES Librer?a del Archivo General de la Naci?n Eduardo Molina y Alba?iles s/n Col. Penitenciaria Ampliaci?n Delegaci?n Venustiano Carranza 15350, M?xico, D.F. Tel: 51 33 99 00, 57 95 70 80 ext. 19327, 19424 Fax : 57 89 52 96 E-mail: distribucionagn at segob.gob.mx __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ From idiez at MAC.COM Wed Feb 4 03:13:12 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 21:13:12 -0600 Subject: Just for fun Message-ID: Just for fun, from Chapulhuacanito, San Luis Potos?. Niquelnamiqui pan ce tlalli techtlanelt?toya para titequitic?. Iaxca ce coyotl itoca Salome Sanchez, pan ce rancho itoca Tecomate. T?huantin titlaxhuitequiyaya para tictocac? cintli. Nopay? nechtitlanqui ma niccuiti atl pan ce acomolli. Quema ya niccuepilia pan ?tli, nicpant? ce hueyi coatl, huan peuhqui niquatz?tzi. Nechcacqu? huan nimantzin huall?qu? nopay? huan noicniuh Jos?. Nopa coatl amo moliniyaya, itztoya noixteno. Jos? nimantzin quiquixt? ce hueyi quahuitl, ica inon quitzonhuitecqui miyac vuelta, huan quimict?. N? nihuipipicayaya, ay?mo huelqui nitequitic. "Amo ximom?mauhti," qu?toyaya nopay?. "Amo ximotequipacho. N? nimitztonaltz?tziliz. Moztla nimitzochpanaz para tictlananac? motonal. Me acuerdo de un terreno que nos prestaba para trabajar. Era propiedad de un burgu?s llamado Salom? S?nchez, en un rancho llamado Tecomate. Nosotros chapole?bamos para sembrar ma?z. Mi pap? me mand? a traer agua de un pozo. Cuando ven?a de regreso en el camino, me encontr? con una v?vora grande, y empec? a gritar. Me escucharon, e inmediatamente vinieron mi pap? y mi hermano. La vivora no se mov?a, estaba en frente de m?. Jos? inmediatamente sac? un palo grande, y con ?l le peg? muchas veces y lo mat?. Yo estaba temblando, ya no pude trabajar. "No te asustes," me dijo mi pap?. "No te preocupes, yo voy a llamar a tu esp?ritu. Ma?ana te har? una limpia para que levantemos tu esp?ritu." John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco Garc?a Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular (desde M?xico): 044 (492) 544-5985 Celular (desde el extranjero) +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1958 bytes Desc: not available URL: From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Wed Feb 4 05:32:30 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 00:32:30 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 4 Message-ID: Molina has: nitlatetehuana tender lo encogido (he is not just talking about laying something out, but literally *stretching* something that has shrunk.) As usual, what is the composition of the word? Saludos, Joe From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Wed Feb 4 13:39:01 2004 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 08:39:01 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 4 Message-ID: Joe, Is there a spelling mistake in this one too? Specifically, could you spell it: nitlateteuhana? Galen r. joe campbell wrote: > Molina has: nitlatetehuana > > tender lo encogido > > (he is not just talking about laying something out, > but literally *stretching* something that has shrunk.) > > As usual, what is the composition of the word? > > Saludos, > > Joe > From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Wed Feb 4 15:37:48 2004 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:37:48 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 4 Message-ID: Actually, I guess my question isn't whether or not this is a spelling mistake. I suppose that if you have teuh followed by a vowel, then it would be spelled "-tehu-", right? So, my question has to do with whether or not there is a morphological division at this point in the word, making it: ni + tla + te (reduplication) + teuh + ana Andrews classifies this "teuh" as a suffix, but there are a few words in the Florentine that seem to use a reduplicated form of "teuh" as an embedded adjective meaning "completely or thoroughly" rather than a suffix meaning "in the manner of." Examples: moteteuhtlalia, quiteteuhilpia. And this seems to make sense. There is also a "motitihuana" that means to stretch out. So, if the break down that I have given above is correct, then the "motitihuana" is really "motetehuana". Is that right? Galen r. joe campbell wrote: > Molina has: nitlatetehuana > > tender lo encogido > > (he is not just talking about laying something out, > but literally *stretching* something that has shrunk.) > > As usual, what is the composition of the word? > > Saludos, > > Joe > From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Wed Feb 4 15:55:48 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 08:55:48 -0700 Subject: Geography Question Message-ID: >>> campbel at INDIANA.EDU 02/03 9:51 AM >>> Richley, It's mentioned in the Florentine (Book 11) under the discussion of yollotototl on p. 25 of the D&A edition. Also under tecuciltototl on p. 26. Saludos, Joe ------- Joe, I've also seen a reference by Sahagun to Teotlixco where he discusses the hairless dog. In that one, he uses the same phrase as in one you site above: "toward the south sea" in describing Teotlixco's location. As far as you know, are there any others in which he describes the location in any other way? The phrase could refer to the Pacific Ocean as someone has suggested, but the text I'm working on (Anonimo Mexicano) has the TeoChichimecs, after the war of Poyauhtlan (near Mt. Tlaloc), told to leave the area and go to Teotlixco "before dawn," which suggests that it wasn't as far as the Pacific--unlesss, of course, "getting to Teotlixco before dawn" is an idiom for something like "leave immediately." Where the narrative takes them is south past Amecameca, then across Popocatepetl to Cholula and, finally, Tlaxcala, not the Pacific. Someone else pointed out that Teotlaxco is the closest place name to Teotlixco, but is there any evidence that Teotlaxco's name was spelled differently in the past? Although it's in the right general direction for this journey, I suspect that it's not the same place. On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, Richley Crapo wrote: > Is anyone on the list aware of a pre-Hispanic site named Teotlixco? If so, where was it located? > Richley > > > From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Wed Feb 4 21:18:24 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:18:24 -0500 Subject: Geography Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richley, Of course, as you know, Luis reyes Garcia translated "teotlixco" as "east" in his introductory study to Zapata y Mendoza's ""Chronologia." best, Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Wed Feb 4 22:31:01 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 15:31:01 -0700 Subject: Geography Question Message-ID: Thanks. I did *not* know that, and it fits the context of a move from the Valley of Mexico to Tlaxcala. One reason I was looking for a location is that Sahagun seems to identify a town or province by the name and Simeon (perhaps drawing on Sahagun) identifies it as both a province and a town "toward the south sea." Richley >>> mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU 02/04 2:18 PM >>> Richley, Of course, as you know, Luis reyes Garcia translated "teotlixco" as "east" in his introductory study to Zapata y Mendoza's ""Chronologia." best, Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Wed Feb 4 22:48:15 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:48:15 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 4 In-Reply-To: <4020F5F5.10108@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, Galen Brokaw wrote: > Joe, > Is there a spelling mistake in this one too? > Specifically, could you spell it: nitlateteuhana? > > Galen > Galen, If Nahuatl spelling were determined only by the phonemes and their various juxtapositions, the spelling would be nitlatetehuana. In fact, the form that I presented as Molina's contained an error (Molina: nitlateteuana), since Molina usually spelled /w/ as 'u'. (I handle Nahuatl words in a regularized spelling which is similar to the Carochi/Andrews/Karttunen orthography, except for not supplying vowel length or glottal stops which are not in the original text.) Your spelling (which I like, but still have some reservations about) (i.e. nitlateteuhana) is the kind alluded to in Andrews (rev. ed.), p. 31, para. 2.5: "Spelling at Points of Internal Open Transition. When two stems are joined by compounding ... their boundaries, as a rule, are preserved by open transition; that is, a slight but audible space is left between the adjacent sounds. This has several consequences: ... ... (2) a stem-final consonant has the sound it would have in vocable-final position (e.g., [kwaw + e:watl], {my keyboard characters can't allow me reproduce Andrews' transcription with fidelity} where the /w/ of [kwaw] is voiceless). Written texts recognize open transition by spelling a stem-final consonant in such a context as if it were vocable-final: cuauhe:huatl (not cuahue:huatl)..." Since I don't believe that orthographic records are an anywhere near foolproof way of inferring low-level phonetic facts like the devoicing of /w/, I have doubts about "a slight but audible space" being left after the /w/s in question. "Open juncture" has been a problem for linguists, partly because there has not been agreement on what it was. Some linguists have assumed that the term was to be taken literally -- that it really involved a *space* (read, "silence", "pause", etc.). Some linguists have suggested that juncture was some sort of operator which was "present", but might or might not be audible, the likelihood of its presence inferred by indirect means (as are many "facts" about our world). When I say "I have doubts", that probably leaves doubt as to what I mean. I *don't* believe (until someone shows a good reason) that we have any way of detecting the degree of voicing in intervocal /w/ in "classical" Nahuatl. All of my tapes are of such bad quality... >8-) But that's another story... Since my server saw fit to drop me and the first version of my comments, I saw your second message and I'm composing off-line to protect myself from the malice up there -- I'll upload and send it off while it's not looking. I agree that the -teteuh- sequence could be a reduplication. In fact, whenever I see two identical syllables in Nahuatl, it's my first candidate for interpreting the morphological structure, as in: qui-tlatlalia he repeatedly places it On the other hand, sometimes the structure dictates that it shouldn't be regarded as reduplication: ni_tlatla_palaquia I apply color to something ------ where tlapa:lli (tla-pa:-l-li) is an embedded noun, acting as an adverb on the verb -aqui-a; nitla- is, of course, the subject with its tla- being the object pa:. tla-pa:-l ni-tla- aqui-a ************************ * Just an aside: * * I would look around at the occurrences of -teuh that need to be * eliminated in the consideration of the element preceding it: * * ocualanteuh he got up angrily and went away * * o-cualan(i)-t(i)-ehua(a) a compound verb * ************************* * and, of course, noteuh (my stone) * ************************* I have found: amateuhtlalili , tla-. something that is fashioned like paper. . FC (very likely an error for tla-amateuhtlalilli) choquizcuauhteuhtlaza =nino. llorar con golpes. . 55m-12 cihuateuh. mugerilmente. . 55m-14 cozcateuh. like a jewel; like a necklace; like a precious necklace. . FC cozcateuhtlamatizque , ti-. we shall love him like a precious necklace. . FC ichcateuhtic. flueco de lana. . 55m-10 macuexteuh. like a bracelet. . FC macuexteuhtlamatizque , ti-. we shall love him like a precious stone necklace. . FC mati =cozcateuh quetzalteuh ipan nimitz. tener en gran estima el padre a su hijo. . 71m1-20 ocholteuhtlalia , nitla-. I form something cluster-like. . FC ohocholteuhca. like clusters. . FC quetzalteuh. like a precious feather. . FC temicteuh. dream-like. . FC xictetehuanazque , qui-. they will violently tear out his entrails. . FC This examples should indicate that -teuh- is the shape of the modifying particle and that the element which precedes it is a noun. If that noun is tetl, then words like: nic-teteuh-ilpia I tie it tightly, I tie it hard qui-teteuh-malina she twists it tightly, she twists it hard are only slightly metaphorical -- and then speakers exercise their love for wider, more stretched, oc cenca tlateteuhantli metaphors with items like: nino-teteuh-ana I stretch (with laziness or to relax) Thanks!!! for mentioning the -titihuana example. I hadn't noticed it -- and, if I had, might not have made the connection. The e to i change certainly does occur. One curious thing is that all the -titiuh examples are restricted to the Florentine. The -teteuh examples occur both in the Florentine and in the three Molinas. Saludos, Joe From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Thu Feb 5 00:01:19 2004 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:01:19 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Joe, Aaaaaaah. Of course. This makes much more sense. This raises a question for me though. Is there a grammatical reason for having the "teuh" here instead of just the noun/adjective? It would seem that they could just use "tetl" without the "teuh" and get the same meaning. I notice from the list you included that the "teuh" appears with other nouns functioning as adjectives. Is this just a kind of redundancy or is there some contextual or grammatical reason for using the "teuh"? Galen r. joe campbell wrote: >On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, Galen Brokaw wrote: > > >>Joe, >>Is there a spelling mistake in this one too? >>Specifically, could you spell it: nitlateteuhana? >> >>Galen >> >> >> > >Galen, > > If Nahuatl spelling were determined only by the phonemes and their >various juxtapositions, the spelling would be nitlatetehuana. In >fact, the form that I presented as Molina's contained an error >(Molina: nitlateteuana), since Molina usually spelled /w/ as 'u'. (I >handle Nahuatl words in a regularized spelling which is similar to the >Carochi/Andrews/Karttunen orthography, except for not supplying vowel >length or glottal stops which are not in the original text.) > > Your spelling (which I like, but still have some reservations about) >(i.e. nitlateteuhana) is the kind alluded to in Andrews (rev. ed.), p. 31, >para. 2.5: "Spelling at Points of Internal Open Transition. When two >stems are joined by compounding ... their boundaries, as a rule, are >preserved by open transition; that is, a slight but audible space is left >between the adjacent sounds. This has several consequences: ... ... (2) a >stem-final consonant has the sound it would have in vocable-final position >(e.g., [kwaw + e:watl], {my keyboard characters can't allow me reproduce >Andrews' transcription with fidelity} where the /w/ of [kwaw] is >voiceless). Written texts recognize open transition by spelling a >stem-final consonant in such a context as if it were vocable-final: >cuauhe:huatl (not cuahue:huatl)..." > > Since I don't believe that orthographic records are an anywhere near >foolproof way of inferring low-level phonetic facts like the devoicing >of /w/, I have doubts about "a slight but audible space" being left >after the /w/s in question. "Open juncture" has been a problem for >linguists, partly because there has not been agreement on what it was. >Some linguists have assumed that the term was to be taken literally -- >that it really involved a *space* (read, "silence", "pause", etc.). >Some linguists have suggested that juncture was some sort of operator >which was "present", but might or might not be audible, the likelihood >of its presence inferred by indirect means (as are many "facts" about >our world). > > When I say "I have doubts", that probably leaves doubt as to what I >mean. I *don't* believe (until someone shows a good reason) that we >have any way of detecting the degree of voicing in intervocal /w/ in >"classical" Nahuatl. > All of my tapes are of such bad quality... >8-) > > But that's another story... > > Since my server saw fit to drop me and the first version of my >comments, I saw your second message and I'm composing off-line to >protect myself from the malice up there -- I'll upload and send it off >while it's not looking. > > I agree that the -teteuh- sequence could be a reduplication. In >fact, whenever I see two identical syllables in Nahuatl, it's my first >candidate for interpreting the morphological structure, as in: > > qui-tlatlalia he repeatedly places it > >On the other hand, sometimes the structure dictates that it shouldn't >be regarded as reduplication: > > ni_tlatla_palaquia I apply color to something > ------ > >where tlapa:lli (tla-pa:-l-li) is an embedded noun, acting as an > adverb on the verb -aqui-a; nitla- is, of course, the subject with > its tla- being the object pa:. > > tla-pa:-l > ni-tla- aqui-a > > >************************ >* Just an aside: >* >* I would look around at the occurrences of -teuh that need to be >* eliminated in the consideration of the element preceding it: >* >* ocualanteuh he got up angrily and went away >* >* o-cualan(i)-t(i)-ehua(a) a compound verb >* >************************* >* and, of course, noteuh (my stone) >* >************************* >I have found: > > amateuhtlalili , tla-. something that is fashioned like paper. a:matl-teuh-tla:lia:-l1>. FC > (very likely an error for tla-amateuhtlalilli) > choquizcuauhteuhtlaza =nino. llorar con golpes. cuahuitl-teuh-tla:za>. 55m-12 > cihuateuh. mugerilmente. . 55m-14 > cozcateuh. like a jewel; like a necklace; like a precious necklace. > . FC > cozcateuhtlamatizque , ti-. we shall love him like a precious > necklace. . FC > ichcateuhtic. flueco de lana. . 55m-10 > macuexteuh. like a bracelet. . FC > macuexteuhtlamatizque , ti-. we shall love him like a precious stone > necklace. . FC > mati =cozcateuh quetzalteuh ipan nimitz. tener en gran estima el > padre a su hijo. . > 71m1-20 > ocholteuhtlalia , nitla-. I form something cluster-like. ochoa-l1-teuh-tla:lia:>. FC > ohocholteuhca. like clusters. . FC > quetzalteuh. like a precious feather. . FC > temicteuh. dream-like. . FC > xictetehuanazque , qui-. they will violently tear out his entrails. > . FC > > >This examples should indicate that -teuh- is the shape of the modifying >particle and that the element which precedes it is a noun. If that >noun is tetl, then words like: > > nic-teteuh-ilpia I tie it tightly, I tie it hard > qui-teteuh-malina she twists it tightly, she twists it hard > >are only slightly metaphorical -- and then speakers exercise their love >for wider, more stretched, oc cenca tlateteuhantli metaphors with items >like: > > nino-teteuh-ana I stretch (with laziness or to relax) > >Thanks!!! for mentioning the -titihuana example. I hadn't noticed it -- >and, if I had, might not have made the connection. The e to i change >certainly does occur. One curious thing is that all the -titiuh >examples are restricted to the Florentine. The -teteuh examples >occur both in the Florentine and in the three Molinas. > >Saludos, > >Joe > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Thu Feb 5 14:56:11 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 08:56:11 -0600 Subject: cuicatl/huicatl Message-ID: Can anybody say anything about the variant in the Huasteca for the word "song", which is "huicatl" instead of the expected "cuicatl". I am familiar with different examples of /k/ softening, but in all other cases it becomes an aspiration. This happens 1) to the first of two adjacent /k/, caqui > cacqui; 2) to the third person singular specific object prefix, when it comes after "ni" or "ti" and before another consonant, for example, "nicnequi"; 3) to the /k/ after a /w/, "iuhquinon (from iuhqui, inon)", "in this way", and "nouhquiya (from no, iuhqui, ya)", "also". I also looked in the Keys' Zacapoaxtla vocabulary. They don't have a "cuicatl" entry for "song", but they do have "cuica" for "llevar, to carry s.t.". Back to my question. Anything on "huicatl", "song"? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco Garc?a Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular (desde M?xico): 044 (492) 544-5985 Celular (desde el extranjero) +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Feb 5 16:23:32 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:23:32 -0500 Subject: cuicatl/huicatl In-Reply-To: <6FB0431A-57EB-11D8-991C-003065C46A4A@mac.com> Message-ID: on 2/5/04 9:56 AM, idiez at MAC.COM at idiez at MAC.COM wrote: > Can anybody say anything about the variant in the Huasteca for the word > "song", which is "huicatl" instead of the expected "cuicatl". I am > familiar with different examples of /k/ softening, but in all other > cases it becomes an aspiration. This happens 1) to the first of two > adjacent /k/, caqui > cacqui; 2) to the third person singular specific > object prefix, when it comes after "ni" or "ti" and before another > consonant, for example, "nicnequi"; 3) to the /k/ after a /w/, > "iuhquinon (from iuhqui, inon)", "in this way", and "nouhquiya (from > no, iuhqui, ya)", "also". I also looked in the Keys' Zacapoaxtla > vocabulary. They don't have a "cuicatl" entry for "song", but they do > have "cuica" for "llevar, to carry s.t.". > Back to my question. Anything on "huicatl", "song"? > John > Not really, but there is another comparable pair: cuetzpalin/huetzpalin 'lizard, iguana.' This variation is documented for Tetelcingo, Morelos. In my experience, /kw/ and gw/ in the Spanish of rural Morelos tend to /w/ too. Could this be substratum influence from the local Nahuatl? Fran From davius_sanctex at TERRA.ES Thu Feb 5 22:44:06 2004 From: davius_sanctex at TERRA.ES (Davius Sanctex) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 23:44:06 +0100 Subject: cuicatl/huicatl Message-ID: [F] In my experience, /kw/ and gw/ in the Spanish of rural Morelos tend to /w/ too. Could this be substratum influence from the local Nahuatl? ---- [D] It is certainly interesting this observation. In general Spanish in fact the current is the opposite to adapt foreign word in /w-/ as /gw-/ as in "whisky" ['wIski] > "g?iski" ['gwiski] or "starwars" [stA:rwA:rs] > "estarguors" [es'taRgwoRs]. From hetzelsteve at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 6 01:55:16 2004 From: hetzelsteve at YAHOO.COM (Hetzel S. Mejia) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:55:16 -0800 Subject: signoff Message-ID: signoff hetzelsteve --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Fri Feb 6 16:54:25 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:54:25 -0600 Subject: "a" vs "o/u" Message-ID: I have a pronunciation question regarding the nahuatl of northern Veracruz. Here is the present tense conjugation of the verb "to go" niyauh, I go tiyauh, you go yohui, he, she, it goes tiyohu?, we go inyohu?, you (pl) go yohu?, they go I have always written the "yohui" with an "o", because it is pronounced as a "u". And I have always wondered why it isn't pronounced "yahui". During my most recent visit to Tepecxitla, Veracruz, I encountered the following: ayohuitl, fog (the "o" is pronounced as a "u") tlaayauhtoc, there is fog. I should also mention that the syllable final "-uh" is always pronounced as an aspiration (example: niccahua > niccauhqui, etc.) . There is no rounding of the lips. I would seem that a syllable initial "hu-" (with its rounding) is indeed changing the pronunciation of a preceeding "a". If this is the case, I can go ahead and respell all forms of "fog" and "to go" (and other instances of this situation) with "a"s, just like you find in Molina. However, it this is the case, "cahua" would be pronounced "cohua", unless there is something about the long vowel of "ca:hua" which would interrupt the process. Any ideas? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco Garc?a Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular (desde M?xico): 044 (492) 544-5985 Celular (desde el extranjero) +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From idiez at MAC.COM Fri Feb 6 17:10:08 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 11:10:08 -0600 Subject: photos of Tepecxitla Message-ID: Listeros, Please visit the following website for pictures of everyday life in the nahua village of Tepecxitla, as well as scenes from a wedding and the moyancuilia ceremony. http://www.deneenstreet.com/Mexico/tep1.htm To expand the thumbnails, click on the text link, not the thumbnail. And thanks to Dan Deneen for all this work. John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco Garc?a Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular (desde M?xico): 044 (492) 544-5985 Celular (desde el extranjero) +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From zorrah at ATT.NET Sat Feb 7 18:57:35 2004 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 18:57:35 +0000 Subject: Anahuac Codices Online from UC Irvine Message-ID: I just found this website at UC Irvine that contains some interesting images from various Anahuac codices: http://www.lib.uci.edu/libraries/exhibits/meso/sacred.html One note: The website is not the best as far as navigation goes. One must pay attention to the ?Back? and ?Next? links at the bottom of each page AFTER selecting from one of the sections: ?Aztec codices,? ?Maya codices,? etc. Citlalin Xochime Nahuatl Tlahtolkalli http://nahuatl.info/nahuatl.htm From budelberger.richard at TISCALI.FR Sun Feb 8 14:49:03 2004 From: budelberger.richard at TISCALI.FR (Budelberger, Richard) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:49:03 +0100 Subject: Status Message-ID: 18 pluvi?se an CCXII (le 8 f?vrier 2004 d. c.-d. c. g.), 15h37. Dear Listeros, Bon, personne ne prenant la parole, je me lance, et en fran?ais. Merci de ne pas r?pondre ? ce message, et encombrer ? NAHUAT-L ? avec plus que ce qui est n?cessaire. ----- Message d'origine ----- De : ? : Envoy? : vendredi 6 f?vrier 2004 22:40 Objet : Status > ???wQ?H?65?Z?:o?5?)?"?R?-?d??{??;l??i???!R?O????P9`t? > 7?o( ??W?%3?Y??XW?yIKo??SZ??????&k??f??]$????4, S?a:???Zy????Q?'^'S`???? [...] L'ordinateur de Frances Karttunen est contamin? par un virus, qui a certainement ?t? envoy? ? tout son carnet d'adresse, dont les Dear Listeros de ? NAHUAT-L ?. Ce virus envoie ce type de message -- ici : ? Status ? --, accompagn? d'un fichier ex?cutable, ? Document.cmd ? de 22,5 Ko, lequel contient probablement ? Mydoom ?. Les pirates ? l'origine de ? Mydoom ? poss?dent de solides complicit?s, car j'ai re?u le virus aussi via une adresse que je n'utilise jamais, et que donc seul mon fournisseur conna?t : les pirates ont r?ussi ? p?n?trer son fichier de client?le. Il est certainement trop tard ; si des Dear Listeros ont ouvert ce genre de fichier joint, ils sont contamin?s, et contaminent les autres. Fin de ce message d'alerte. Je pense qu'il est inutile de s'?tendre davantage. Richard Budelberger. Autre endroit o? ? Mydoom ? a ?t? rep?r? : l'UNAM de Mexico. From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 9 13:22:47 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 08:22:47 -0500 Subject: Status In-Reply-To: <025f01c3ee69$2db4b460$345424d5@william> Message-ID: There are, I'm sure, a lot of...if not most of...the folks on this listserv that don't speak French. This fellow's saying that Fran's computer has a virus that has likely spread to the list. Michael On Sun, 8 Feb 2004, Budelberger, Richard wrote: > 18 pluvi?se an CCXII (le 8 f?vrier 2004 d. c.-d. c. g.), 15h37. > > Dear Listeros, > > Bon, personne ne prenant la parole, je me lance, et en fran?ais. > Merci de ne pas r?pondre ? ce message, et encombrer ? NAHUAT-L ? > avec plus que ce qui est n?cessaire. > > > ----- Message d'origine ----- > De : > ? : > Envoy? : vendredi 6 f?vrier 2004 22:40 > Objet : Status > > > ???wQ?H?65?Z?:o?5?)?"?R?-?d??{??;l??i???!R?O????P9`t? > > 7?o( ??W?%3?Y??XW?yIKo??SZ??????&k??f??]$????4, S?a:???Zy????Q?'^'S`???? > > [...] > > L'ordinateur de Frances Karttunen est contamin? par un virus, > qui a certainement ?t? envoy? ? tout son carnet d'adresse, dont > les Dear Listeros de ? NAHUAT-L ?. > > Ce virus envoie ce type de message -- ici : ? Status ? --, accompagn? > d'un fichier ex?cutable, ? Document.cmd ? de 22,5 Ko, lequel contient > probablement ? Mydoom ?. Les pirates ? l'origine de ? Mydoom ? > poss?dent de solides complicit?s, car j'ai re?u le virus aussi via > une adresse que je n'utilise jamais, et que donc seul mon fournisseur > conna?t : les pirates ont r?ussi ? p?n?trer son fichier de client?le. > > > Il est certainement trop tard ; si des Dear Listeros ont ouvert > ce genre de fichier joint, ils sont contamin?s, et contaminent les autres. > > > Fin de ce message d'alerte. Je pense qu'il est inutile de s'?tendre davantage. > > > > Richard Budelberger. > > > Autre endroit o? ? Mydoom ? a ?t? rep?r? : l'UNAM de Mexico. > > > From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Feb 9 14:20:42 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 08:20:42 -0600 Subject: Status In-Reply-To: <025f01c3ee69$2db4b460$345424d5@william> Message-ID: In actual fact it is not Fran's computer that is infected, but that of someone else who had her address in the address book. This virus takes addresses in the address book of the infected computer and then sends e-mails as if they came from the other person. At 08:49 AM 2/8/2004, you wrote: >Dear Listeros, > > Bon, personne ne prenant la parole, je me lance, et en fran?ais. >Merci de ne pas r?pondre ? ce message, et encombrer ? NAHUAT-L ? >avec plus que ce qui est n?cessaire. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Feb 9 16:33:56 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:33:56 -0600 Subject: Sneeze Message-ID: In the Informantes de Sahagun text "Augurios y abusiones" translated by Alfredo Lopez Austin, a sneeze is given as "acucholiztli" and to sneeze is "acuchoa" On the other hand Molina gives "ecuxoliztli" as a sneeze and "ecuxoa" as to sneeze. Quite simply, who's more accurate? John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From idiez at MAC.COM Mon Feb 9 16:52:44 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:52:44 -0600 Subject: Sneeze In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20040209103106.01ef2ec0@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Fritz, The a/e variation is not a problem, because this is common in many words between dialects: cuepa/cuapa, miyac/miyec, ?acatl/?ecatl, etc. As you know, the ?/z/c, ch, x, tz were confused by many writers of nahuatl in the colonial period and continue to be confused today. Both dialects of Huastecan nahuatl that I work with (western and eastern) use "acuexoa" for "to sneeze", so I would opt for the "x". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco Garc?a Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular (desde M?xico): 044 (492) 544-5985 Celular (desde el extranjero) +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Feb 9, 2004, at 10:33 AM, John F. Schwaller wrote: > In the Informantes de Sahagun text "Augurios y abusiones" translated by > Alfredo Lopez Austin, a sneeze is given as "acucholiztli" and to > sneeze is > "acuchoa" On the other hand Molina gives "ecuxoliztli" as a sneeze and > "ecuxoa" as to sneeze. Quite simply, who's more accurate? > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at mrs.umn.edu > From idiez at MAC.COM Wed Feb 11 18:49:16 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:49:16 -0600 Subject: syllable-initial aspiration Message-ID: Listeros, I've got a problem. I have/had pretty much decided to use Carochi's spelling conventions for writing modern nahuatl. This means that the aspiration/glottal stop is represented with a grave accent over the preceding vowel. This is cool, since it normally occurs as the last consonant of a syllable which is followed by another consonant (ni-y?-qui, nic-qual-ch?-chi-huaz, etc.). In a few instances, it occurs before two vowels (?acatl, for example), and is poses no problem for the accent. However, I have two example of what seem to be aspirations at the beginning of a syllable. If these are indeed the aspiration consonant, and not just another consonant whose sound has been modified (such as the first of two /k/s being pronounced as an aspiration (niccacqui, I heard it), then I'm going to have to find another way of representing it in writing. The two examples are (I use an "h" to represent the aspiration here): 1. noha (still, todav?a) This is not like ah-a-catl. The aspiration supposedly only followes short vowels, and the "o" of "noha" is long. 2. cenha (the same, igual, lo mismo) Any ideas? John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco Garc?a Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular (desde M?xico): 044 (492) 544-5985 Celular (desde el extranjero) +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Wed Feb 11 22:29:51 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:29:51 +0000 Subject: syllable-initial aspiration Message-ID: idiez at MAC.COM wrote:- > I've got a problem. I have/had pretty much decided to use > Carochi's spelling conventions for writing modern nahuatl. > ... represented with a grave accent over the preceding vowel. The trouble is that all too often the email mishandles accented vowels. I prefer [h] or apostrophe for glottal stop. From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Feb 12 02:38:35 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:38:35 -0500 Subject: syllable-initial aspiration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear John, Ca you share with us your rationale for representing a consonant with a diacritic as though it were a quality of the vowel preceding the consonant? Fran From idiez at MAC.COM Thu Feb 12 03:59:58 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:59:58 -0600 Subject: syllable-initial aspiration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fran, First of all, I'm not going to respond with a short and direct answer, because this is not the problem that is bugging the hell out of me. I am trying to decide upon a single system for writing older and modern nahuatl. Most of the many newer conventions used for dealing with modern nahuatl stink, for two reasons: 1. they introduce letters such as the "k" and the "w", which have the effect of opening up a Grand Canyon between living indians and their cultural legacy (the canon of older nahuatl writing). I think tradition is important; 2. they tend to have many errors, like confusing the glottal stop, the "-uh", and the /k/ before another /k/; and not representing word-final "n"s, etc., etc. This also bugs me, because I believe people have a right to understand how their language works, at the very least through the intuitive information contained in a well structured writing system. I don't consider the glottal stop to be a quality of the preceding vowel. I only consider this option because Carochi used it, and his writing system is pretty representative of the corpus of colonial mundane documents. If I really wanted to be as close as possible to the colonial system, obviously I would just ignore the glottal stop altogether, but then, neither I nor my students would be able to deal with the language academically. And that is precisely what we are about to begin to do here: re-elevate nahuatl to an academic stature at the university. We will teach native-speakers to read and write in nahuatl. They will read older texts, and comment on them in nahuatl verbally and in written form. They will discuss important issues and write about them in nahuatl, and participate in the production of dictionaries, grammars, and other texts. I've probably written too many times to the list about this. It's just that I haven't been able to make up my mind, and I don't want to keep subjecting my students to changes in writing systems. Just as you did with your dictionary, I need to decide upon a traditional system with sufficient minimum modifications to make it academically usefull. But at the same time I don't want to be part of the club of researchers who think they are being cool by creating a new writing system. OK, it looks like I've painted myself into a corner. And in this case, that's good. John On Feb 11, 2004, at 8:38 PM, Frances Karttunen wrote: > Dear John, > > Ca you share with us your rationale for representing a consonant with a > diacritic as though it were a quality of the vowel preceding the > consonant? > > Fran > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Centro de Estudios Prospectivos Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco Garc?a Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular (desde M?xico): 044 (492) 544-5985 Celular (desde el extranjero) +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From budelberger.richard at TISCALI.FR Thu Feb 12 02:40:00 2004 From: budelberger.richard at TISCALI.FR (Budelberger, Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 03:40:00 +0100 Subject: syllable-initial aspiration Message-ID: 22 pluvi?se an CCXII (le 12 f?vrier 2004 d. c.-d. c. g.), 03h35. ----- Message d'origine ----- De : ? : Envoy? : mercredi 11 f?vrier 2004 19:49 Objet : syllable-initial aspiration > Listeros, > I've got a problem. I have/had pretty much decided to use Carochi's > spelling conventions for writing modern nahuatl. Bravo ! > The two examples are (I use an "h" to represent the aspiration here): 1. noha (still, todav?a) This is not like ah-a-catl. The aspiration supposedly only followes short vowels, and the "o" of "noha" is long. 2. cenha (the same, igual, lo mismo) Any ideas? Cf. uel . Richard Budelberger. From micc2 at COX.NET Thu Feb 12 21:42:18 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:42:18 -0800 Subject: syllable-initial aspiration In-Reply-To: <002b01c3f18c$63d00b00$215624d5@william> Message-ID: Hi everyone, I recently bought Louise M. Burkhart's "Holy Wednesday" , which I sadly found out was all translated from the Nahuatl into English. At the end of the book there is an order form for a PDF version of the original Nahuatl texts. I contacted the Univ. of Penn. and I was told it is no longer available. Does anyone have a copy they can share? Or perhaps Professor Burkhart's e-mail address? thanks in advance, mario e. aguilar www.mexicayotl.org From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Feb 12 23:45:15 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:45:15 -0500 Subject: syllable-initial aspiration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear John, I don't have any solution to offer off the bat about how to represent the problematical syllable-initial aspiration in Nahuatl of which you give an example (except maybe to ask whether it's segmental or prosodic). But I do have some other thoughts I'd like to share. As long as a language is unwritten, or is written mainly with ideographic characters (like Chinese), or--as in Mesoamerica--with a mixed system of ideographs and rebus-writing (word x, in full or in part, sounds like word y), people don't seem to get hung up on spelling. Once an alphabetic writing system comes into play, it seems inevitable that people confuse the language with the elements of the writing system. They talk about "the letters of the language" instead of about the letters being used to represent the sounds of the language. Purism arises, so that some ways of representation are considered "correct" and others "wrong" or "corrupt." If you think this only happens to layfolk, have a look at the censorious things Andrews has to say in the second edition of his Intro. to Classical Nahuatl. Yikes! There's no virtue inherent in written characters. For the sound system of any given language there are many ways (actually, an infinity of ways) of representing utterances in that language that are fairly internally consistent. Representing a sound with the letter "c" or the letter "k" is not a matter of correctness, as you know so well. But context (historical, social, conventional) can make people take umbrage about one as over against another. Think, for instance, of the connotations for English speakers of "Amerika" spelled with a "k." Most languages have some consonants and/or vowels that don't correspond to the usual uses of the letters of the Roman (or Greek or Cyrillic) alphabet (especially as they exist in boxes of type). Many/most languages have series of distinctions for which these alphabets offer no resources. So what is to be done in creating an alphabetical system of writing for such a language? One device is to add diacritics to the existing letters: a bar here, an accent there, a cedilla underneath. In Swedish there is a little "o" set on top of "a" to represent the same sound that Danish writes as "aa," which in turn is different from what "aa" represents in Finnish. In Norway an "o" with a slash written through it represents the equivalent to what in Swedish is written with an umlaut over the "o." Any and all these solutions work equally well as long as nobody gets his or her nose out of joint about nationality. Another is to create digraphs: two letters together to represent a single sound. There are plenty of digraphs used in the traditional writing of Nahuatl. Even the writing systems for Nahuatl that use "k" and "w" usually also use "tl" and "ch." Another way to create more letters to represent sounds is to turn some letters and even numbers around (in the old days, taking them out of the box of type and inverting them or setting them sideways). So you get the number "8" on its side in some printed Algonquian. In Yucatec May, there used to be a backwards "c" that has since been replaced with the digraph "dz." Old writing systems for other Mayan languages were studded with numbers used as letters to represent glottalized consonants. The International Phonetic Alphabet and the American system of phonetic notation (that differs in some details from IPA) were created as tools to represent pronunciation independently of language. A [k] in IPA is [k] no matter what language is being represented. There are no digraphs, but instead "one character for one sound." This is where the support for "k" and "w" in Nahuatl comes from. Naturally this runs into all sorts of problems, because utterances in particular languages exist as the product not of a concatenated string of unitary sound units but within the realm of a set of contrasts (alike/different) that varies from language to language. Fine phonetic transcription is loaded with little squiggles and flourishes, most of which are unnecessary and irritating for speakers of the language in question. But until a fieldworker approaches native command of a language, s/he doesn't know what is important and what is redundant. That's a field linguist's job, and the friars who adapted the the letters of the Roman alphabet to represent Mesoamerican languages were proto-field linguists of very high caliber. The thing that everyone tends to lose sight of is that the letters, including special characters, are just symbols. They are not inherent in any particular language. But there are things that ARE inherent in a particular language. If language X has a contrasting series of voiceless and voiced consonants, then fine. The Roman alphabet has p/b t/d k/g etc. to represent those contrasts. But if the language in question has a series of contrasting plain/glottalized consonants, for instance, then some convention (a diacritic, digraphs, special characters) is needed. Suppose a language has a contrast of plain/aspirated consonants. They could be written as p/ph t/th k/kh. Or p/bh t/dh k/gh. Or even the same old p/b t/d k/g. As long as everyone is in on what is being used and what it means in this language. BUT, using p/b t/d k/g could lead someone to think that the contrast is voiceless/voiced. To the ear of a person who is a native speaker of a language that contrasts voiceless/voiced, unaspirated/aspirated sounds just the same. Even spectrograms don't reliably show a difference, because it is the systematic phonology of each language that is in question. Another issue is, as you have said so eloquently, tradition. Once a language has used one writing system for a while and has a body of written/printed literature, a spelling reform (like the one so actively promoted for English by George Bernard Shaw), no matter how "logical," separates the post-reform reader from the pre-reform literature. Most linguists move nearly unconsciously from IPA to the American phonetic system to whatever alphabetic conventions a particular language uses, but most nonlinguists get frustrated. (Linguists aren't immune to frustration. I never got the hang of Cyrillic, so in Russia I carried around a small notebook and laboriously transliterated what was on street signs in order to find out where I was. It would take me ages to get to places.) Likewise, in a situation of daily bilingualism, the difference between, say, the conventions of written Spanish and the conventions of writing Nahuatl with "k"s and "w"s can be counterproductive when the teaching of reading and writing is going on in school in the dominant language, Spanish. And, of course, there are matters of ideology. The new spelling conventions adopted for the Mayan languages were based in part on decisions that have less to do with the sound systems of the languages involved than with matters of identity. This was equally true of the spelling conventions for Nahuatl proposed and adopted at the Aztec Congress held in Milpa Alta during the presidency of L?zaro C?rdenas. When one struggles with the type of questions to which you are addressing yourself, there are multiple dimensions including at least the following: The way the language actually works. The way the language has been written in the past and the existing body of literature so written/printed. The subjective feelings speakers of the language have about one particular writing system over another. For instance, do Nahuatl speakers wish to maximize the difference in appearance from the way written Spanish looks on the page? Or do they find a sense of unity with their past in the way colonial-period written/printed Nahuatl looks on the page? In this matter there are bound to be majority and minority opinions. I have heard some Nahuatl speakers reject the Aztec Congress spelling system as looking "bolshevik." (It's not coincidental that Diego Rivera and his buddies hung out in Milpa Alta during the 1930s.) On the other hand, some people might associate the Carochi spelling (or the Molina spelling, the Olmos spelling, etc.) with the evangelization of the indigenous worlds in a profoundly negative way. So what it comes down to is that it must be up to the speakers of a language how they will write it (or even IF they will write it). It's up to the rest of us to ask, listen, and respect even if we disagree and choose to use a different system for clarity among ourselves. Personally, I think the 16th and 17th century friars did a superb job of field linguistics and created very durable writing systems in which a huge corpus of writing in Nahuatl exists. There were a couple of things they under-represented, and I prefer to simply augment the traditional system, as Carochi did, but differing in a couple of minor details, one of them having to do with the "saltillo" (which, then as now, was apparently variously pronounced in different areas but had the same FUNCTION whatever its pronunciation). By writing the saltillo as a diacritic over the preceding character, Carochi gave the impression that the saltillo was a characteristic of the vowel: a glottalization of the vowel or a rise in the pitch of the vowel. Yet we know that these changes to the vowel were contextual. They happened when the vowel was followed by a particular consonant, albeit a consonant Spanish speakers had difficulty hearing or describing. One consequence of this was that in the 1930s Benjamin Lee Whorf, a perfectly good linguist, went off on a tangent and described Nahuatl as a tone language. (Lyle Campbell and I have published an essay on this as an introduction to our edition of Whorf's Milpa Alta field notes.) In Nahuatl, vowels followed by saltillo behave systematically like vowels followed by other consonants. Since the distinction between open and closed syllables is a crucial one in Nahuatl morphology, I have admired the choice Andrews made to follow the sporadic usage of Molina, Sahag?n, and others in writing the saltillo with the letter "h." This consideration seems to me to trump other arguments, such as wanting to look like Carochi because Carochi is somehow the best and purest example of written and printed Nahuatl. (After all, Carochi was unsuccessful in his own time in getting Nahuatl speakers to adopt his package of orthographic improvements, so it's hardly sacred.) Likewise, I find it strange that some of my colleagues are so fond of the cedilla, as though writing c-cedilla is better or clearer or more authentic than "z." I really hope that for older Nahuatl, we non-Nahuah follow the lead of Andrews and doesn't further proliferate writing conventions. What Nahuatl-speakers chose to do is entirely up to them, and we need to observe and learn from them. That said, in the course of time and over the geography of indigenous Mexico, there has been a lot of variation and some historical change leading to mergers of other consonants and consonant clusters with the realization of what we call "saltillo." This is a real challenge to modern writing. Does one write how a word sounds (as one would in IPA) or as the word is morphologically and has been historically? The latter strategy has been the source of immense problems in English spelling, which often reflects a past pronunciation/derivation of something that has since undergone change- being pushed in one end and out the other of the Great Vowel Shift, for example. Since as you describe it, you are engaging in a language revitalization project to: "re-elevate nahuatl to an academic stature at the university. We will teach native-speakers to read and write in nahuatl. They will read older texts, and comment on them in nahuatl verbally and in written form. They will discuss important issues and write about them in nahuatl, and participate in the production of dictionaries, grammars, and other texts." I'd like to recommend an article about decisions about representation of specific languages: "Issues of Standardization and Community in Aboriginal Language Lexicography" by Keren Rice and Leslie Saxon. This appears in Making Dictionaries: Preserving Indigenous Languages of the Americas, edited by William Frawley, Kenneth C. Hill, and Pamela Munro. Published in 2002 by the University of California Press. I recommend the whole book to listeros with an interest in these matters. Skip the theoretical section and cut directly to the "Indigenous Communities" and the "Personal Accounts" sections. There are two (!) articles in there about Nahuatl. Fran From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Fri Feb 13 00:13:16 2004 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:13:16 EST Subject: syllable-initial aspiration Message-ID: Listeros: With all due respect [and I mean that sincerely] to Andrews, I second Fran's comment. Ye ixquich. Barry D. Sell In a message dated 2/12/04 3:52:55 PM, karttu at NANTUCKET.NET writes: << Once an alphabetic writing system comes into play, it seems inevitable that people confuse the language with the elements of the writing system. They talk about "the letters of the language" instead of about the letters being used to represent the sounds of the language. Purism arises, so that some ways of representation are considered "correct" and others "wrong" or "corrupt." If you think this only happens to layfolk, have a look at the censorious things Andrews has to say in the second edition of his Intro. to Classical Nahuatl. Yikes! >> From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Fri Feb 13 00:15:22 2004 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:15:22 EST Subject: syllable-initial aspiration Message-ID: Mario: The Nahuatl of Louise's HOLY WEDNESDAY will appear in full transcription (with a couple of minor corrections) in volume four of NAHUATL THEATER, due out in 2007. Ye ixquich. Barry D. Sell In a message dated 2/12/04 1:46:02 PM, micc2 at COX.NET writes: << Hi everyone, I recently bought Louise M. Burkhart's "Holy Wednesday" , which I sadly found out was all translated from the Nahuatl into English. At the end of the book there is an order form for a PDF version of the original Nahuatl texts. I contacted the Univ. of Penn. and I was told it is no longer available. Does anyone have a copy they can share? Or perhaps Professor Burkhart's e-mail address? thanks in advance, mario e. aguilar www.mexicayotl.org >> From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 16 03:47:40 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:47:40 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 5 Message-ID: I have never lost my awe of the work that Molina did in his three dictionaries. Nevertheless, there are a few scribo (scribographical??) errors to be found. I wanted to share this one with you from 1571, S/N, f55v2. His definition is "enterrado"; how does the following word mean this? And, of course, what is the error? >8-) tlatlalanaquilli Joe From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 16 11:38:52 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 06:38:52 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: List, Among the altepetl of 18th-century Tlaxcala, there were three common exchange units in use: the mahuizotzin, the teletzin and the xolitzintli. The mahuizotzin is the most commercial, teletzin has political-legal connotations and xolitzintli is best associated with small-scale "luxury" gifts, such as sweets at holidays. If anyone has comparative data to share, I'd be happy to receive it. Regarding tlatlalanaquilli, it seems to mean "lo metido en la tierra" and to be lacking a middle l if it is using tlalli + tlan. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Mon Feb 16 12:30:52 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:30:52 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 2/15/04 10:47 PM, r. joe campbell at campbel at INDIANA.EDU wrote: > I have never lost my awe of the work that Molina did in his three > dictionaries. Nevertheless, there are a few scribo (scribographical??) > errors to be found. I wanted to share this one with you from 1571, S/N, > f55v2. His definition is "enterrado"; how does the following word mean > this? And, of course, what is the error? >8-) > > tlatlalanaquilli > > Joe > An extraneous -an- has insinuated itself into the verb tla:l-aquia: < tl:al-li 'earth' and aquia: 'to insert something' < aqui 'to enter, to fit in' From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 16 22:52:16 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:52:16 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think what Fran says is logical, but I don't think that *tlatlalaquilli is what Molina intended to write.. What I think is the scribographical error (Joe, have you been reading too much of that new-fangled Andrew's malarky?). Well, I think the only thing Molina did was an l. I think the word should actually be tlatlallanaquilli. What this is is rare but attested embedding of a postposition inside a verb, i.e., -tlal- 'earth' plus tlan 'towards'. There's a case like this in the Florentine: amotetechacia 'y'all's (presents) for approaching someone'. This is a verb-derived instrumental phrase, where -tetechaci- is the verb and tech is the embedded postposition. Michael On Mon, 16 Feb 2004, Frances Karttunen wrote: > on 2/15/04 10:47 PM, r. joe campbell at campbel at INDIANA.EDU wrote: > > > I have never lost my awe of the work that Molina did in his three > > dictionaries. Nevertheless, there are a few scribo (scribographical??) > > errors to be found. I wanted to share this one with you from 1571, S/N, > > f55v2. His definition is "enterrado"; how does the following word mean > > this? And, of course, what is the error? >8-) > > > > tlatlalanaquilli > > > > Joe > > > > > An extraneous -an- has insinuated itself into the verb tla:l-aquia: < > tl:al-li 'earth' and aquia: 'to insert something' < aqui 'to enter, to fit > in' > > > From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Tue Feb 17 17:25:36 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:25:36 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: These are interesting examples that seem to evince the same two phenomena, one that contextual affixes sometimes freeze to verb related statements and second that Nahuatl speakers sometimes add semantically empty sounds to sustain a good phonological aspect. I've more noticed the later in the material I work with but am unable, right now, to comb through it for illustrative examples. I'll try to pass on relevant ones when I can. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM Wed Feb 18 15:38:48 2004 From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:38:48 +0100 Subject: Libros de Galarza Message-ID: Hola Arturo, Te agradezco tus indicaciones. Visit? el sitio de la Univ. Veracruzana pero esta tan mal hecho, que no encontre nada. Seguire buscando. Mil gracias. Susana (una mexicana en Roma) From idiez at MAC.COM Thu Feb 19 13:17:17 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 07:17:17 -0600 Subject: new class 4 verb Message-ID: A while ago, someone asked for help compiling class 4 verbs. Well, here's a new one from the Eastern Huasteca: "nahua", "to hold, embrance or hug someone". Here is the sentence from a recent diary entry of a native speaker: "Moquetzqui huan quinecqui ma nicnahua. Huahcauh nicnahuahqui." "She stood up and wanted me to hold her. Then I held her." John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco Garc?a Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular (desde M?xico): 044 (492) 544-5985 Celular (desde el extranjero) +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Thu Feb 19 22:48:04 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:48:04 -0700 Subject: Question about Garibay Message-ID: Does anyone know of a citation for a statement by A. Garibay to the effect that the post-Tula migration of the people of Xolotl may have been Otomi speakers? Richley From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Sun Feb 22 21:33:05 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 16:33:05 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl word serious 1 Message-ID: Lixteroxtzitzin, Most of the words that I present for morphological commentary are ones that I'm reasonably sure that I already know the answers for |8-) (that's how I think I know that they are interesting enough to occupy your attention). I assume that they will generate some activity and discussion that will benefit some people, including myself. My words for today are mainly for self-benefit. They have lingered on my "not done yet" queue for a long time, partly because there were simply so many other words yammering for attention and partly because my candidates for analyses for these didn't immediately result in the warm glow of self-satisfaction that comes when something goes "click". Today I got an "almost-click" and I wondered if I could your comments on the following words. nimazatlatlacahuiloa domar potros nitetlatlacahuiloa atraer con halagos nitetlatlacahuiloa assegurar con engan~o a alguno mazatlatlacaahuiloani domador tal (de potros) nitetlatlacaahuiloa rogar halagando You will notice a difference in spelling between the two groups of words. I would appreciate any comments that will lead me either to drop my present hypothesis or feel more confidence in it. Saludos, Joe p.s. I will, of course, tell y'all what my present ideas are -- I'm keeping them in a sealed envelope till later... From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Mon Feb 23 22:05:49 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:05:49 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl Word 6 Message-ID: This word caught my eye today and I thought it bowl y'all over: nixcaxihui entortarse Joe From budelberger.richard at TISCALI.FR Tue Feb 24 01:24:00 2004 From: budelberger.richard at TISCALI.FR (Budelberger, Richard) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:24:00 +0100 Subject: Question about Garibay Message-ID: 4 vent?se an CCXII (le 24 f?vrier 2004 d. c.-d. c. g.), 02h13. ----- Message d'origine ----- De : Richley Crapo ? : Envoy? : jeudi 19 f?vrier 2004 23:48 Objet : Question about Garibay > Does anyone know of a citation for a statement by A. Garibay > to the effect that the post-Tula migration of the people of Xolotl > may have been Otomi speakers? > Richley Christian Duverger, ? L'origine des Azt?ques ?, Seuil, 1983, p. 216 : Les Azt?ques ? Tula La magnificence de Tula a v?cu. Mais le territoire -- comme toutes les terres du Plateau central -- demeure occup?. Au moment de l'arriv?e des Mexitin, les possesseurs de la terre sont les Otomi ? ; probablement la r?gion de Tula n'a-t-elle jamais cess? d'?tre occup?e par un fond de population otomi. Mais durant l'?poque classique, ces populations autochtones avaient d? subir deux dominations successives, d'abord celle des gens des Terres Chaudes puis celle des Nahua repr?sent?s selon les sources par les gens de Xolotl, de Mixcoatl ou de Tezcatlipoca. Les derniers Tolteco-Nahua r?fugi?s ? Colhuacan, l'ancienne m?tropole tolt?que n'?tait plus qu'un modeste hameau d'aspect d?sol?. From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Tue Feb 24 20:21:27 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:21:27 -0600 Subject: Icniuhtli Message-ID: I was contacted by a reporter wanting to verify a bit of information given to him in an interview he is doing. He wanted to know if in fact the word for friend [icniuhtli; nocniuh] literally means "one who gives me happiness" I cannot see it, but maybe there is something I'm missing here. Help? John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From micc2 at COX.NET Tue Feb 24 21:18:50 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:18:50 -0800 Subject: Icniuhtli In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20040224141828.01fba5d0@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Hi John, The reporter Gil, is doing an in-depth ( I hope!) story about our dance circle. We told him that in the vernacular of today's danza, there are many dancer who use the term "ahuiliztli" or happiness to mean "friend". The teaching behind this for our children is that true happiness come to us not in terms of materialism, but through the wealth of interpersonal relationships we build, specifically the bonds that build between danzantes of different groups, towns, and now, nations. It is similar to our use of "compadrito" and "comadrita". We call each other by these terms even though we have no formal "compadrazgo" (such as taking someone's child to baptism, first communion, etc.) we are compadres/comadres by virtue of being danzantes. This use of the term " happiness" to mean friend, appears to me, is very much in keeping with the "disfrasismos" of old times such as "In xochitl in cuicatl", In altepetl, etc. mario www.mexicayotl.org John F. Schwaller wrote: > I was contacted by a reporter wanting to verify a bit of information > given > to him in an interview he is doing. He wanted to know if in fact the > word > for friend [icniuhtli; nocniuh] literally means "one who gives me > happiness" > > I cannot see it, but maybe there is something I'm missing here. > > Help? > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at mrs.umn.edu > From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Tue Feb 24 21:39:13 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:39:13 -0700 Subject: Question about Garibay Message-ID: Thank you for the information. Richley >>> budelberger.richard at TISCALI.FR 02/23 6:24 PM >>> 4 vent?se an CCXII (le 24 f?vrier 2004 d. c.-d. c. g.), 02h13. ----- Message d'origine ----- De : Richley Crapo ? : Envoy? : jeudi 19 f?vrier 2004 23:48 Objet : Question about Garibay > Does anyone know of a citation for a statement by A. Garibay > to the effect that the post-Tula migration of the people of Xolotl > may have been Otomi speakers? > Richley Christian Duverger, ? L'origine des Azt?ques ?, Seuil, 1983, p. 216 : Les Azt?ques ? Tula La magnificence de Tula a v?cu. Mais le territoire -- comme toutes les terres du Plateau central -- demeure occup?. Au moment de l'arriv?e des Mexitin, les possesseurs de la terre sont les Otomi * ; probablement la r?gion de Tula n'a-t-elle jamais cess? d'?tre occup?e par un fond de population otomi. Mais durant l'?poque classique, ces populations autochtones avaient d? subir deux dominations successives, d'abord celle des gens des Terres Chaudes puis celle des Nahua repr?sent?s selon les sources par les gens de Xolotl, de Mixcoatl ou de Tezcatlipoca. Les derniers Tolteco-Nahua r?fugi?s ? Colhuacan, l'ancienne m?tropole tolt?que n'?tait plus qu'un modeste hameau d'aspect d?sol?. From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Thu Feb 26 18:35:31 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 13:35:31 -0500 Subject: Icniuhtli In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20040224141828.01fba5d0@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Feb 2004, John F. Schwaller wrote: > I was contacted by a reporter wanting to verify a bit of information given > to him in an interview he is doing. He wanted to know if in fact the word > for friend [icniuhtli; nocniuh] literally means "one who gives me happiness" > Fritz, If the reporter is trying to *verify* whether the word for friend in Nahuatl (icniuhtli; nocniuh) literally means "one who gives me happiness", it depends on what he means by "means". If you get at "means" in the way that we usually do by asking, "What is another way to say "icniuhtli" or "nocniuh" in Spanish"?, an accurate answer (and the one that you would get in any Nahuatl speaking community) is "hermano" and "mi hermano". This kind of answer also fulfills the request for *strict* meaning, *literal* meaning. If you asked a Nahuatl speaker for the *meaning* of one of the following Nahuatl words, he would be likely to reply with one of Molina's equivalents (as below), but not with "hermano". teaahuialtiani. plazentero, o halague?o. teaahuiltiani. halague?o. teahuiltiani. plazentero o regozijado, que regozija alos otros. tetlatlacaahuiloani. halague?o. tetlatlacahuiloani. halague?o. tepapaquiltiani. cosa [o persona] que da plazer y alegria. So if a reporter seeks to *verify* (determine the *truth*) of the claim that "icniuhtli" literally means "one that gives me happiness", the black-and-white answer is "no". However, people who get only the black-and-white version of truth and the interaction between language and the world and our societies get a cartoon about reality -- a stick figure representation, but hardly one that you would prefer in all circumstances to a shades-of-gray photograph or a gigabytes-rich-color one. Setting aside the sober, objective "facts" that we find in dictionaries or that we get from language community members in answer to requests for short equivalences in meaning, it is possible for one community to branch off in their use of a word and adopt it for a different meaning. In fact, I imagine that something analogous to this (i.e., using a combination of novel elements to replace an old one for a particular meaning) happened when "tzontecomatl" encroached on the usage territory of "cua:itl". Some member of the community decided that "tzon(tli)-tecomatl" ('hair-gourd') was more descriptive than the simple label "cua:itl" ('head') or more cute or mod. So did the people that he spoke to -- and lexical change took place, leaving "cua:itl" out of independent use in sentences, but still embedded in many words which continue to be used (cuacuahueh, bovine; tlacuaatequiah, they baptize; cuacaxtic, shaped like a bowl in top; ninocuachalania, I knock myself on the head, etc.) But this involves an unradical change involving a word and its referent. If I understand the "friend" / "happiness" example correctly, the innovation consists of taking a word which refers to a notion which is subjectively *associated* with another notion and transferring the label. I highly admire the motivation for doing this, since it involves the attempt to improve the values of children. When those children become adults, the people who deal with them will benefit from the society that they swim in. To bring my tlahtolmecayotl to an end, my main point is simply that we should recognize the innovation as linguistically very unusual -- and as leaving the Nahuatl language unchanged. When people ask about a word in **Nahuatl**, they want to know about conventional associations of words and meanings. --And the point under discussion might well be mentioned as a footnote. Yotlan, Joe From idiez at MAC.COM Thu Feb 26 21:13:22 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 15:13:22 -0600 Subject: maybe another class 4 Message-ID: An eastern huastecan speaker of nahuatl will say: "Tlahuel tiohuih", "You are a very difficult person," and "Tlahuel tiohuihqueh", "You (pl) are very difficult people." So, "ohuih" is the preterite agentive of what probably was either a class 3 (ohuia) or a class 4(ohui) verb. A similar case points to the possible verbal origin of "oc", "still". While older central Mexican nahuatl gives, "occe", "another", and "occequin", "others", modern huastecan nahuatl gives, "ceyoc", "another", and "ceyoqueh", "others". John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Francisco Garc?a Salinas 604 Colonia CNOP Zacatecas, Zac. 98053 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular (desde M?xico): 044 (492) 544-5985 Celular (desde el extranjero) +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx