From carlossn at UI.BOE.ES  Thu Jul  1 13:58:31 2004
From: carlossn at UI.BOE.ES (Carlos Santamarina)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:58:31 +0200
Subject: nahuatl translation
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUL.2004.155831.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

  Can anybody help me?
I'm trying to traduce a sentence from the Anales de Cuauhtitlan.
Here is, with de translation of Primo Feliciano Velázquez (UNAM, 1992):

auh in oacic niman Mizoc, ipan iniyacapepech oncan yoltlacatl macehualli
"Al llegar, se sangró en su cama de pajas, de donde tuvo vida una
persona plebeya"

I have problems with yacapepech (no 'zacapepech'), perhaps from yacatl
(nose or tip?) and pepechtli (bed or so)...

    Thank you very much.
Carlos Santamarina <carlossn at diploma.com> carlossn at ui.boe.es

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From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Thu Jul  1 20:42:00 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:42:00 -0500
Subject: tlahueliloc
In-Reply-To: <20040630193027.14310.qmail@web90008.mail.scd.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUL.2004.154200.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Rick,

There is no evidence for any relationship between ahhuel /a?wel/ and
tlahue:l- /tlawe:l-/. Note for example the lack of a glottal stop in
tlahue:l- (i.e., it's not */tlahwe:l-/ but /tlawe:l/. Hence there is no term
for "not" (i.e., ah- ) in tlahue:l-. And, as I mentioned yesterday or the
day before, the vowel length is a cause for suspicion in assuming some sort
of identicality between these terms, i.e., -hue:l- cannot be -huel-.

I don't know if it's any help, but maybe it would be useful to think of,
say, "sun" and "son" in English. Now, the analogy is not perfect, since in
fact the two English terms are identical in pronunciation (no messy vowel
length or glottal stop discrepancies to worry about), but are not related
otherwise. They're just homophonous. In the evolution of a language,
sometimes items fall together, or nearly so, haphazardly. In Potawatomi in
the 1800s the third-person singular conjunct verb ending came to resemble a
common locative suffix ending (something like but not exactly like Nahuatl
postpositions). This sort of phenomenon can cause brief moments of
unintelligiblity.

Best,

Michael


Quoting rick dosan <rich_photos at YAHOO.COM>:

>  So, my understanding so far is that tlahueliloc is not from ahuelia, but
> from tlahuel.  And that the meaning of tlahuel is related to Hate or
> "irrascible ".  And ahhuel would have more to do with Impossible, or Bad.
> And I take it that tlahueliloc is related to tlahuel because the phonetics
of
> Tlahueliloc would have no saltillo in the first syllable and a long vowel
in
> the second.  If this is so, could it still be possible that tlahueliloc
> sometime back originally came from ahhuel (bad)?  The reason I'm thining
> this, is that in Molina it's defined as Malvado...  Thanks for all the
> feedback.
> Rich
>
> mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU wrote:
> Rick,
>
> This is tlahue:l- as in the verb tlahue:lia 'to hate', 'to despise'.
>
> tlahue:liloc literally means 'he/she/it has been hated'.
>
> tlahue:li-lo-c 'despise' + non-active ("passive") marker + past tense
marker
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
> Quoting rick dosan :
>
> > Does anyone have an idea about the root of the word tlahueliloc? Any
> > interesting texts in which it appears?
> >
> > Do any of these seem right?
> >
> >
> > Ueli -- Poder
> >
> > Ueli –lo Se Puede
> >
> > Ueli-lo-c Posible
> > A-ueli-lo-c Imposible
> >
> > Tl(a)-a-ueli.lo.c Quien no es posible/ quien es imposible
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Tlauelia- Estar irritado
> >
> > Tlaueli(a)-lo Se está irritado
> > Tlaueli(a)-lo-c Uno que está irritado
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Uelia (Bueno)
> >
> > A-Uelia (malo)
> > Tlaueliloc (Un malvado)
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Richard Dorfsman
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.


From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Fri Jul  2 17:42:31 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:42:31 -0500
Subject: nahuatl translation
In-Reply-To: <40E41887.6070904@ui.boe.es>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUL.2004.124231.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Quoting Carlos Santamarina <carlossn at UI.BOE.ES>:

>   Can anybody help me?
> I'm trying to traduce a sentence from the Anales de Cuauhtitlan.
> Here is, with de translation of Primo Feliciano Velázquez (UNAM, 1992):
>
> auh in oacic niman Mizoc, ipan iniyacapepech oncan yoltlacatl macehualli
> "Al llegar, se sangró en su cama de pajas, de donde tuvo vida una
> persona plebeya"
>
Unfortunately my Spanish is a million light years behind my Nahuatl, so I
don't know what "pajas" means in "cama de pajas". However, fortunately (for
me), you have provided the Nahuatl. :-)

Your "iniyacapepech" is "in iyacapepech," actually two words written as one:

"in" is "in, and

iyacapepech is

|i:-| 'his/her'
|yaca-| 'nose' but also 'angle' and 'point'
|-pe(:)(h)-| reduplication on
|-pech| 'flat on the surface' <- pechoa 'to make something flat' and pechahui
        'to become flat' -> tlapechtli 'bed', i.e, 'something flat'

In English? "his/her angled bed, pointed bed" (?) I don't know. I've never
seen a yacapepechtli. :-)

The reduplication of the -pech implies an extensive flat area or "very flat".
The text, of course, does not indicate whether the vowel is short or long or
if a glottal stop follows the vowel in the reduplication.


is for me, at least, challenging in that after removing the possessive
singular third person prefex i- meaning 'his/her', and the final stem, -pech,
with the reduplicated pe(:)(h)-, which is the "cama" part, what's left is
not "yaca(tl)" meaning "nose, point, angle" but rather "niyaca-". I don't know
what a "niyaca-" is. -pech is from the verb pechahui 'to become flat' and
pechoa 'to make something flat'. The reduplicated prefix on -pech signifies
probably "very"..."very flat," "extensively flat".

> I have problems with yacapepech (no 'zacapepech'), perhaps from yacatl
> (nose or tip?) and pepechtli (bed or so)...
>
>
Saludos,
Michael




    Thank you very much.
> Carlos Santamarina <carlossn at diploma.com> carlossn at ui.boe.es
>
>


From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU  Fri Jul  2 19:42:51 2004
From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:42:51 -0400
Subject: nahuatl translation
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUL.2004.154251.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

My first guess is that this a scribal error or a typo, and that the
original is actually "zacapepechtli" rather than "yacapepechtli." The
translator gives the meaning as "cama de pajas", so it would seem that
he is reading it as if it were "zaca" [straw] rather than "yaca" [nose].
The Florentine does have attestations of both "zacapechtli" and with the
reduplication "zacapepechtli" meaning straw bed.
Have you checked either the original or other editions of the Anales to
see if they have this word spelled the same way? I would suspect that
you will find it spelled "zacapepechtli" in the original and most other
editions.
Galen


Carlos Santamarina wrote:
>   Can anybody help me?
> I?m trying to traduce a sentence from the Anales de Cuauhtitlan.
> Here is, with de translation of Primo Feliciano Velázquez (UNAM, 1992):
>
> auh in oacic niman Mizoc, ipan iniyacapepech oncan yoltlacatl macehualli
> ?Al llegar, se sangró en su cama de pajas, de donde tuvo vida una
> persona plebeya?
>
> I have problems with yacapepech (no 'zacapepech'), perhaps from yacatl
> (nose or tip?) and pepechtli (bed or so)...
>
>     Thank you very much.
> Carlos Santamarina <carlossn at diploma.com> carlossn at ui.boe.es
>


From malinal at EVHR.NET  Sat Jul  3 08:09:01 2004
From: malinal at EVHR.NET (Alexis Wimmer)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:09:01 +0200
Subject: nahuatl translation
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUL.2004.100901.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

  "iniyacapepech" is perhaps writen for "in i:-a:ca-pehpech", his reed mat.

  "iya-" appears oftens for "î-a" or for "î-â".

  In the version of  Walter Lehman 1938,293 you will find it spelled

  "niman míçoc ypan iyacapèpech" da stach er sich (blutig) auf seinem
Rohrlager.



  Alexis







  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Galen Brokaw" <brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU>
  To: <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
  Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 9:42 PM
  Subject: Re: nahuatl translation


  > My first guess is that this a scribal error or a typo, and that the
  > original is actually "zacapepechtli" rather than "yacapepechtli." The
  > translator gives the meaning as "cama de pajas", so it would seem that
  > he is reading it as if it were "zaca" [straw] rather than "yaca" [nose].
  > The Florentine does have attestations of both "zacapechtli" and with the
  > reduplication "zacapepechtli" meaning straw bed.
  > Have you checked either the original or other editions of the Anales to
  > see if they have this word spelled the same way? I would suspect that
  > you will find it spelled "zacapepechtli" in the original and most other
  > editions.
  > Galen
  >
  >
  > Carlos Santamarina wrote:
  > >   Can anybody help me?
  > > I?m trying to traduce a sentence from the Anales de Cuauhtitlan.
  > > Here is, with de translation of Primo Feliciano Velázquez (UNAM,
1992):
  > >
  > > auh in oacic niman Mizoc, ipan iniyacapepech oncan yoltlacatl
macehualli
  > > ?Al llegar, se sangró en su cama de pajas, de donde tuvo vida una
  > > persona plebeya?
  > >
  > > I have problems with yacapepech (no 'zacapepech'), perhaps from yacatl
  > > (nose or tip?) and pepechtli (bed or so)...
  > >
  > >     Thank you very much.
  > > Carlos Santamarina <carlossn at diploma.com> carlossn at ui.boe.es
  > >
  >


From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jul  3 16:42:29 2004
From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:42:29 -0700
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <000c01c460d5$0065ab20$b7a5a9d5@duron1800>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUL.2004.094229.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I was wondering if there is any difference between ineua and inehua (with h).  And if it's in Karttunen's Dictionary, where is it? because I didn�t find it.  Is its root eua? And what is the sense that connects its two meanings "dar un mal golpe" (miss a blow) and "estar pose�do por el demonio" (Be possessed by the devil).

I have a different kind of question, too.
Some of the questions I ask are related to my masters thesis.  And I wanted to know what is the normal practice for citing (quoting-  " ") here on the list.  Can we freely cite what is said?  Should we ask permission each time we want to cite something?  If we want to ask permission, should we ask it publicly, or directly to the person who we want to cite?

Thank you.
Richard


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
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From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jul  3 18:03:56 2004
From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:03:56 -0400
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <20040703164229.81826.qmail@web90003.mail.scd.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUL.2004.140356.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Hi, Richard:

This is my first post on the list.  I'm still very much the newbie,
but I'm going to
give this a shot.

> I was wondering if there is any difference between ineua and inehua (with h).

The only different here is orthographical.  Firstly, this is probably
in + ehua.  On
the topic of the labial glide /w/, it is common in older spanish
orthographics to
use all sorts of conventions because Spanish had no "w" letter.  You may see
eoa, eua, or ehua -- but they are all for the same pronunciation.

> And if it's in Karttunen's Dictionary, where is it? because I didn't find it.  Is its
> root eua?

Karttunen's Dictionary has e:hua, with the meaning, "to rise, get up from bed"
and an alternate "to rise and go."

Generally, the "in" part of the phrase is translated as "the" or sometimes not
translated at all, according to the same dictionary.  I believe its a sort of
reference marker indicating that an action refers to or somehow makes use of
the object.

Unfortunately, being much the newb, I don't have an answer for your latter
question.


-Geoff


From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Sat Jul  3 20:05:18 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:05:18 -0400
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <99045682040703110336bcc88c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUL.2004.160518.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Concerning "inehu(a)":

> Generally, the "in" part of the phrase is translated as "the" or sometimes not
> translated at all, according to the same dictionary.  I believe its a sort of
> reference marker indicating that an action refers to or somehow makes use of
> the object.
> 
But in this case the "in" is part of the verb stem.  Have a look at Molina's
entry.  He devices the first-person present tense into "ineua.niqu," and he
gives the first-person preterite as "oniquineuh."

That is: o:- (antecessive prefix) ni- (first-person singular subject prefix)
qu- (third-person singular object prefix) ineuh (preterite stem.

> And if it's in Karttunen's Dictionary, where is it? because I didn't find it.

It's not in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl because it's not attested in
sources that indicate long vowels and glottal stops. There's no way to tell
if it's ihnehu(a) or i:nehu(a) or ine:hu(a), etc.

> Is its root eua?

Not likely. It doesn't at all appear that the "in" can be detached from the
stem.

> And what is the sense that connects its two meanings "dar un mal golpe"
> (miss a blow) and "estar poseído por el demonio" (Be possessed by the devil).

What is the source of the second gloss?


From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM  Sat Jul  3 21:10:07 2004
From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:10:07 +0100
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <BD0C89BD.2DFF%karttu@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUL.2004.221007.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

--- Frances Karttunen <karttu at NANTUCKET.NET> wrote:
> Concerning "inehu(a)":

Someone wrote:-
> And if it's in Karttunen's Dictionary, where is it? because I
> didn't find it.

  Frances Karttunen wrote:-
> It's not in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl because it's not
> attested in sources that indicate long vowels and glottal stops.
> There's no way to tell if it's ihnehu(a) or i:nehu(a) or ine:hu(a),
> etc.

Can the word be identified in modern spoken Nahuatl and its vowel
lengths and glottal stops thus found?


From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jul  3 21:51:08 2004
From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:51:08 -0400
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <BD0C89BD.2DFF%karttu@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUL.2004.175108.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:05:18 -0400, Frances Karttunen
<karttu at nantucket.net> wrote:
> Concerning "inehu(a)":
>

Woah. There are famous people on this list. :D  Greetings from South Florida!

>
> But in this case the "in" is part of the verb stem.  Have a look at Molina's
> entry.  He devices the first-person present tense into "ineua.niqu," and he
> gives the first-person preterite as "oniquineuh."
>
> That is: o:- (antecessive prefix) ni- (first-person singular subject prefix)
> qu- (third-person singular object prefix) ineuh (preterite stem.
>

My mistake.  I don't have a copy of this book, yet, as amazon.com has
nothing of Alonso de Molina -- all are marked out of print.

> It's not in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl because it's not attested in
> sources that indicate long vowels and glottal stops. There's no way to tell
> if it's ihnehu(a) or i:nehu(a) or ine:hu(a), etc.

That's another interesting point I hadn't realized.  I had assumed, incorrectly,
that all common sources were covered in the Dictionary because of the frequent
dissertations on one attestation versus another (and it probably has to do with
my having skipped through the introduction, too).

-Geoff


From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU  Sun Jul  4 00:47:41 2004
From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 20:47:41 -0400
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <20040703164229.81826.qmail@web90003.mail.scd.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUL.2004.204741.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Richard,
Your second question is a very good one, and I would like to give you my
opinion. I'm sending this to the list because we all have an investment
in this issue, and I'd be interested to hear what others might have to
say on this matter.
First, I think that if you err on this issue, you should err on the side
of caution and professional courtesy.
How you deal with this may depend on the nature of the information that
you want to cite. But it is important to keep in mind that an email
discussion list like Nahuat-l is a very informal venue. In general, when
you draw from other people's ideas that are expressed in such a venue, I
think it is a good policy to be generous and positive. What I mean by
that is that you should not attack or criticize ideas that you may
disagree with. That is to say, that you should only use things that are
helpful to you in a positive way and ignore ideas or arguments with
which you may disagree. I'm not saying this because I don't like good
natured debate. Sometimes in published articles you see people develop a
critique in a kind of negative dialogue with someone else's work. Even
when you take this approach with published sources, you need to be very
careful, because in some cases I think that it merely masks the fact
that the critic doesn't have an argument of his or her own. And you also
run the risk of falling into a strawman argument. But sometimes the
issue is such that this approach is useful and perhaps even necessary.
Email discussions, however, are much more informal than published
articles. The whole point is to have a dialogue in which ideas can be
bounced around and discussed in an open way. So, at least for me, I
wouldn't necessarily want anybody to hold me to something that I wrote
on this list. I often put stuff out there in an explicitly hypothetical
way, because that kind of thing can be very productive in the kind of
dialogue that often goes on here. So, I think it would be kind of unfair
to write up and publish--whether that be an article, a Masters thesis,
or whatever--a critique of an argument or idea presented on an email
list unless the person who sent out the message consents.
For the same reason, even when you want to use a specific idea or
argument that appeared on the list with which you agree, I think it is
always a good policy to ask the person about it. This will help you
avoid misrepresentation. Let's say, for example, that you agree with
someone's argument or position on something discussed on the list, but
the person who originally articulated that argument no longer agrees
with it. In such a case, you should probably still give credit to the
person in a more general way that does not misrepresent that person's
current position on the matter. In such a case, a footnoted explanation
might be useful.
And I do think this kind of request should be made directly to the
person rather than publicly on the list.
Maybe this is more detail than you were looking for, but I think this
kind of thing is important, especially since I have probably said a lot
of really dumb things on this list :-). Good luck with your thesis.
Galen



rick dosan wrote:

> I was wondering if there is any difference between ineua and inehua
> (with h).  And if it's in Karttunen's Dictionary, where is it? because
> I didn´t find it.  Is its root eua? And what is the sense that
> connects its two meanings "dar un mal golpe" (miss a blow) and "estar
> poseído por el demonio" (Be possessed by the devil).
>
> I have a different kind of question, too.
> Some of the questions I ask are related to my masters thesis.  And I
> wanted to know what is the normal practice for citing (quoting-  " ")
> here on the list.  Can we freely cite what is said?  Should we ask
> permission each time we want to cite something?  If we want to ask
> permission, should we ask it publicly, or directly to the person who
> we want to cite?
>
> Thank you.
> Richard
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you!
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/mobile/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo>
> Get it on your mobile phone.

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From joostkremers at FASTMAIL.FM  Sun Jul  4 12:31:07 2004
From: joostkremers at FASTMAIL.FM (Joost Kremers)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 05:31:07 -0700
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <9904568204070314515ff7e1c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUL.2004.053107.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:51:08 -0400, "Geoff Davis" <mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM>
said:
> My mistake.  I don't have a copy of this book, yet, as amazon.com has
> nothing of Alonso de Molina -- all are marked out of print.

try going to <http://www.porrua.com> and do a 'busqueda avanzada' for
'molina' in the author field and 'vocabulario' in the title field. that
should give you two titles. i have no idea what the difference is
between the two, but at least the second one should still be available.
(and don't be alarmed by the $250.00. those are mexican pesos. the
bottom price is USD.)

HTH

--
Joost Kremers
--
  Joost Kremers
  joostkremers at fastmail.fm


From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Sun Jul  4 13:02:46 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 08:02:46 -0500
Subject: nahuatl translation
In-Reply-To: <000c01c460d5$0065ab20$b7a5a9d5@duron1800>
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUL.2004.080246.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Cool. Both Galen's and Alexis's interpretations hold water.

Michael


On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Alexis Wimmer wrote:

>   "iniyacapepech" is perhaps writen for "in i:-a:ca-pehpech", his reed mat.
> 
>   "iya-" appears oftens for "�-a" or for "�-�".
> 
>   In the version of  Walter Lehman 1938,293 you will find it spelled
> 
>   "niman m��oc ypan iyacap�pech" da stach er sich (blutig) auf seinem
> Rohrlager.
> 
> 
> 
>   Alexis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: "Galen Brokaw" <brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU>
>   To: <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
>   Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 9:42 PM
>   Subject: Re: nahuatl translation
> 
> 
>   > My first guess is that this a scribal error or a typo, and that the
>   > original is actually "zacapepechtli" rather than "yacapepechtli." The
>   > translator gives the meaning as "cama de pajas", so it would seem that
>   > he is reading it as if it were "zaca" [straw] rather than "yaca" [nose].
>   > The Florentine does have attestations of both "zacapechtli" and with the
>   > reduplication "zacapepechtli" meaning straw bed.
>   > Have you checked either the original or other editions of the Anales to
>   > see if they have this word spelled the same way? I would suspect that
>   > you will find it spelled "zacapepechtli" in the original and most other
>   > editions.
>   > Galen
>   >
>   >
>   > Carlos Santamarina wrote:
>   > >   Can anybody help me?
>   > > I?m trying to traduce a sentence from the Anales de Cuauhtitlan.
>   > > Here is, with de translation of Primo Feliciano Vel�zquez (UNAM,
> 1992):
>   > >
>   > > auh in oacic niman Mizoc, ipan iniyacapepech oncan yoltlacatl
> macehualli
>   > > ?Al llegar, se sangr� en su cama de pajas, de donde tuvo vida una
>   > > persona plebeya?
>   > >
>   > > I have problems with yacapepech (no 'zacapepech'), perhaps from yacatl
>   > > (nose or tip?) and pepechtli (bed or so)...
>   > >
>   > >     Thank you very much.
>   > > Carlos Santamarina <carlossn at diploma.com> carlossn at ui.boe.es
>   > >
>   >
> 
> 
> 

"...and cicadas sing
a rare and different tune..."

R. Hunter


From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Sun Jul  4 14:15:13 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 09:15:13 -0500
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <99045682040703110336bcc88c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUL.2004.091513.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Geoff Davis wrote:
>
> Generally, the "in" part of the phrase is translated as "the" or sometimes not
> translated at all, according to the same dictionary.  I believe its a sort of
> reference marker indicating that an action refers to or somehow makes use of
> the object.

One of its primary but often overlooked uses in Nahuatl of "in" is to
signal the appearance of a subordinate clause, e.g.,

In pochtecatl in cacnamacani.  'He is a trader who sells shoes".


Michael


From idiez at MAC.COM  Mon Jul  5 02:47:08 2004
From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 21:47:08 -0500
Subject: Molina out of print
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUL.2004.214708.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

The Molina dictionary is definitely out of print. You can't order it 
from Porrúa, and it's not available at the Gandhi or Sótano in Mexico 
City. If you want a copy, you need to hunt around at individual 
bookstores.
John

John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
Unidad Académica de Idiomas
Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
Director
Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C.
Tacuba 152, int. 47
Centro Histórico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
México
Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985
idiez at mac.com
www.idiez.org.mx

From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jul  5 04:31:58 2004
From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 21:31:58 -0700
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <BD0C89BD.2DFF%karttu@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUL.2004.213158.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

In answer to the comment of where can ineua be found to mean "estar poseido por el demonio"; I found it in Sim�on.

Frances Karttunen <karttu at NANTUCKET.NET> wrote:Concerning "inehu(a)":

> Generally, the "in" part of the phrase is translated as "the" or sometimes not
> translated at all, according to the same dictionary. I believe its a sort of
> reference marker indicating that an action refers to or somehow makes use of
> the object.
>
But in this case the "in" is part of the verb stem. Have a look at Molina's
entry. He devices the first-person present tense into "ineua.niqu," and he
gives the first-person preterite as "oniquineuh."

That is: o:- (antecessive prefix) ni- (first-person singular subject prefix)
qu- (third-person singular object prefix) ineuh (preterite stem.

> And if it's in Karttunen's Dictionary, where is it? because I didn't find it.

It's not in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl because it's not attested in
sources that indicate long vowels and glottal stops. There's no way to tell
if it's ihnehu(a) or i:nehu(a) or ine:hu(a), etc.

> Is its root eua?

Not likely. It doesn't at all appear that the "in" can be detached from the
stem.

> And what is the sense that connects its two meanings "dar un mal golpe"
> (miss a blow) and "estar pose�do por el demonio" (Be possessed by the devil).

What is the source of the second gloss?



---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
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From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Mon Jul  5 12:01:11 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 08:01:11 -0400
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <20040705043158.6583.qmail@web90010.mail.scd.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.080111.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

on 7/5/04 12:31 AM, rick dosan at rich_photos at YAHOO.COM wrote:

In answer to the comment of where can ineua be found to mean "estar poseido
por el demonio"; I found it in Siméon.


Thanks.  I should have looked there. My excuse is that Molina sits at my
right hand at all times, and Simeon is on the shelf out in our
cottage-cum-library.  I just trekked across the yard and fetched Simeon.
What he glosses as 'estar poseido por el demonio' is the construction notech
qu-ineua.  This is in the format carried over from Molina in which the
sample construction is the first person.  In this case, the first-personess
is not, however, expressed in the verb;  qu-ineua is third-person singular.
The crucial part is the associated postpositional phrase no-te:ch 'stuck to
me.'  I think the sense of this construction (an established idiom,
apparently) is that one has been struck by a randomly directed blow.  That
is, one is suffering not as the result of any fault of one's own, but as an
incidental victim of being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

In addition to Molina, Simeon drew from Clavigero, among others.  This may
be the source of this idiom.

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From malinal at EVHR.NET  Mon Jul  5 13:52:37 2004
From: malinal at EVHR.NET (Alexis Wimmer)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:52:37 +0200
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.155237.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Re: ineua & how-to-citethis idiom is also often fund in the Florentine Codex.

  « itech qujneoaz », (who meet cihuapipiltin) .. an evil would possess him.  Sah4,81.

  is said from who meet  

  « injc amo aca tennecujliviz, ixnecuiliujz, têmpatziujz, itech quinenaz », lest one of (the children) might develop misshapen lips, or crossed eyes, or hare lip, or be possessed. (also by meeting cihuapipiltin)

  Sah4,41.

  « cenca tlaquauh oncan tetech quineoaia », at this time they might be violently possessed. Of children when the cihuateteoh descend. Sah4,107.

  « inic âcah îtech quinêhua », when some one was under their spell (of the cihuâtêteoh, cihuâpîpiltin). Sah1,72.

  See also Sah11,129 where  it is used for hallucinogenic plants (olôliuhqui tlâpâtl).

   

  Alexis Wimmer



    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Frances Karttunen 
    To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU 
    Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 2:01 PM
    Subject: Re: ineua & how-to-cite


    on 7/5/04 12:31 AM, rick dosan at rich_photos at YAHOO.COM wrote:


      In answer to the comment of where can ineua be found to mean "estar poseido por el demonio"; I found it in Siméon.  


      Thanks.  I should have looked there. My excuse is that Molina sits at my right hand at all times, and Simeon is on the shelf out in our cottage-cum-library.  I just trekked across the yard and fetched Simeon.  What he glosses as 'estar poseido por el demonio' is the construction notech qu-ineua.  This is in the format carried over from Molina in which the sample construction is the first person.  In this case, the first-personess is not, however, expressed in the verb;  qu-ineua is third-person singular.  The crucial part is the associated postpositional phrase no-te:ch 'stuck to me.'  I think the sense of this construction (an established idiom, apparently) is that one has been struck by a randomly directed blow.  That is, one is suffering not as the result of any fault of one's own, but as an incidental victim of being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

      In addition to Molina, Simeon drew from Clavigero, among others.  This may be the source of this idiom.
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From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU  Mon Jul  5 18:17:44 2004
From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:17:44 -0500
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <20040705043158.6583.qmail@web90010.mail.scd.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.131744.0500.MDMORRIS@INDIANA.EDU>

Off the cuff, I would suggest possibly looking at this word as a compound
of nehui/nehua and il- or ihi- , i.e. ihnehua, ilnehua.  Nehui/nehua means
something like "to equal, to resemble," but was also consistently used in
colonial Tlaxcala to describe receipt of superior orders from the colonial
administration, e.g. onechtlaneuh in Despacho, "we received the judgment,
order."  Ihnehua or ilnehua, then, could describe spirit possession what
would be demon possession in the Church's eyes.  However, I think there is
a basic problem in Simeon's entry that removes this "word" from prudent
use of lexicon.  I'm sorry I don't have time to add detailed notes, but I
think it is very doubtful that this verb, like inecui that precedes it,
is an independent verb--these are compound verbs, probably transcribed
with errors and dependent on certain contexts that provide as much of
their meaning as the morphological elements.

sincerely,
Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From caroline.dodds at CCC.OX.AC.UK  Mon Jul  5 18:20:19 2004
From: caroline.dodds at CCC.OX.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 19:20:19 +0100
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.192019.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Re: ineua & how-to-citeDear all, 

I have 'lurked' on this list for a long time and found it very interesting, although I must confess that many of the discussions go over my head! I am struggling, as ever, to improve my Nahuatl and I hoped that someone might help me. 

I am trying to check the translation of a term from the Florentine Codex and am having trouble tracing how it has been derived. The term is 'suchioa', which is given by Dibble and Anderson as 'pervert'. I have tried every variation I can think of and am now wondering whether it may have been drawn from the Spanish 'sucio/cia' (meaning dirty/filthy) as this is the only possible derivation I seem to be able to find! 

Sorry if this is a really stupid question, but I would really appreciate any help that people could offer! 

Yours,
Caroline Dodds
-----
History Faculty
University of Cambridge
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From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU  Tue Jul  6 02:15:55 2004
From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 22:15:55 -0400
Subject: suchioa
In-Reply-To: <002701c462bc$bb71fd40$227e7ad5@Caroline>
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.221555.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Caroline,
Several things come to mind here, but it would be helpful if you gave
the larger context in which this word appears.
Just based on what you provide, I wouldn't think that this was a loan
word based on "sucio", because the "chioa" portion appears to be the
verb "chihua". In other places, the Florentine expresses the notion of
to pervert or perverted as "teyolcuepa" and "tlacamicqui", but the use
of "chihua" with a preceding, attached noun stem whose meaning was
associated with perversion would also seem to be a viable way to convey
the same idea. Again, just based on the spelling you give of this
isolated word, I would guess that "suchioa" would normalize to
"zochihua", which would seem to break down as "zotl" (cloth) and
"chihua" (to make or do). The problem here is that it is kind of hard to
get from the literal meaning of "cloth" to the sense of "pervert". This
is why the larger context might help. Is there anything preceding the
word which might actually be part of it? It would make more sense if the
word were something like "ahtlazochihua" [to make s.t. worthless or in a
worthless way] or even better "tlazolchihua" [to make s.t. corrupt,
filthy, etc. or in a corrupt, filthy way]. I don't know if these
constructions were actually used, but if they were, either one
(especially the second one: "tlazolchihua") could possibly convey the
notion of "to pervert."
There may be other possibilities, and I may be missing something, but it
is hard to tell with out more context.
Galen





Caroline Dodds wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I have 'lurked' on this list for a long time and found it very
> interesting, although I must confess that many of the discussions go
> over my head! I am struggling, as ever, to improve my Nahuatl and I
> hoped that someone might help me.
>
> I am trying to check the translation of a term from the Florentine
> Codex and am having trouble tracing how it has been derived. The term
> is 'suchioa', which is given by Dibble and Anderson as 'pervert'. I
> have tried every variation I can think of and am now wondering whether
> it may have been drawn from the Spanish 'sucio/cia' (meaning
> dirty/filthy) as this is the only possible derivation I seem to be
> able to find!
>
> Sorry if this is a really stupid question, but I would really
> appreciate any help that people could offer!
>
> Yours,
> Caroline Dodds
> -----
> History Faculty
> University of Cambridge

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From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Tue Jul  6 13:18:01 2004
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:18:01 -0500
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <1088944267.25070.199701858@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.081801.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

At 07:31 AM 7/4/2004, you wrote:
>On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:51:08 -0400, "Geoff Davis" <mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM>
>said:
> > My mistake.  I don't have a copy of this book, yet, as amazon.com has
> > nothing of Alonso de Molina -- all are marked out of print.
>
>try going to <http://www.porrua.com> and do a 'busqueda avanzada' for
>'molina' in the author field and 'vocabulario' in the title field. that
>should give you two titles. i have no idea what the difference is
>between the two, but at least the second one should still be available.
>(and don't be alarmed by the $250.00. those are mexican pesos. the
>bottom price is USD.)


I was in the Porrua store a month ago and they assured me that the book is
most definitely out of print and they have no indication when it might be
reprinted.





John F. Schwaller
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
315 Behmler Hall
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at mrs.umn.edu


From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Tue Jul  6 13:21:44 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:21:44 -0500
Subject: subordinate claws
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1040705122102.26865A-100000@lear.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.082144.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

The other day, in the midst of discussion of "ineua" Dr. Karttunen wrote
me this off-list:


"It's not really clear whether Nahuatl even has (or had prior to exposure
to the model of Spanish) subordinate clauses as we know them.  I believe
it was Jane Rosenthal who wrote on the topic of "headless relative
clauses" in Nahuatl a long time ago, but Jim Lockhart and I were not
really sure that such constructions weren't just concatenated sentences
rather than a main clause and a subordinate clause."

In the message i'd sent to the list that prompted this response, I should
have spoken more clearly. What I meant to say is that I've been running
across in reading the Florentine *many* lines where "in" introduces a
statement that describes a preceding statement to the left of the "in,"
and that the translation into English of the statement following the "in"
is best accomplished by the use of a relative clause.  Inon ca mochi.

Best,
Michael


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Tue Jul  6 13:42:17 2004
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:42:17 -0500
Subject: -in- as clause introducer
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.084217.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Andrews does touch on -tin as a clause introducer.  In the Second edition
he writes:

"2. Adjunctors (adjoined-clause introducers)
in = the, a/an, who, that, when, if, etc. [The adjunctor par
excellence.  The translation into English is whatever the English context
requires.  The use of -in- to indicate adjoined units is almost always
option; adjunction (or subordination) rarely has to be explicitly stated in
Nahuatl.  The -in- may indicate that only a single item is subordinate or
that a multi-itemed sequence is.] " p. 40




John F. Schwaller
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
315 Behmler Hall
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at mrs.umn.edu


From ced44 at CAM.AC.UK  Tue Jul  6 14:10:38 2004
From: ced44 at CAM.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:10:38 +0100
Subject: Translation help
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.151038.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>


Dear all, 

I have 'lurked' on this list (under another address) for a long time and found it very interesting, although I must confess that many of the discussions go over my head! I am struggling, as ever, to improve my Nahuatl and I hoped that someone might help me. 

I am trying to check the translation of a term from the Florentine Codex and am having trouble tracing how it has been derived. The term is 'suchioa', which is given by Dibble and Anderson as 'pervert'. I have tried every variation I can think of and am now wondering whether it may have been drawn from the Spanish 'sucio/cia' (meaning dirty/filthy) as this is the only possible derivation I seem to be able to find! 

Sorry if this is a really stupid question, but I would really appreciate any help that people could offer! 

Yours,
Caroline Dodds
-----
History Faculty
University of Cambridge
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From mmontcha at OREGONVOS.NET  Tue Jul  6 19:55:36 2004
From: mmontcha at OREGONVOS.NET (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:55:36 -0700
Subject: intervocalic s > ch
In-Reply-To: <003d01c46363$042c22d0$e2d28351@Caroline>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.125536.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

|I am trying to check the translation of a term from the Florentine
|Codex and am having trouble tracing how it has been derived. The term is
|'suchioa', which is given by Dibble and Anderson as 'pervert'. I have
|tried every variation I can think of and am now wondering whether it may
|have been drawn from the Spanish 'sucio/cia' (meaning dirty/filthy) as
|this is the only possible derivation I seem to be able to find!

If this is true, perhaps there are some other instances of an
intervocalic Spanish /s/ turning into an intervocalic Nawatl /ch/ ?

This kind of sound shift would be very useful if it appears in other
Spanish/Nawatl word pairs.


From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Tue Jul  6 20:46:14 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:46:14 -0500
Subject: suchioa
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0407061252471.4183-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.154614.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Maybe Galen mentioned this this morning; I don't remember. But, when list
members write in for assistance with a certain etymon, they would
further things along if they were to include the context, i.e., the phrase
or sentence in which it appears. The  list certainly has no lack of eager
beavers ready to help. Nahuatl seems to do that to its scholars and
students-- make them enthusiastic about the subject. But the old-time
Spanish orthography does not always contribute to a clean interpretation
of a single, free-floating spelling. It's conceivable that the s- of
suchioa could me a miswritten or misinterpreted m-. "Anything" is possible
with a single word.

Tlaxtlahui,

Michael

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004, Matthew Montchalin wrote:

> |I am trying to check the translation of a term from the Florentine
> |Codex and am having trouble tracing how it has been derived. The term is
> |'suchioa', which is given by Dibble and Anderson as 'pervert'. I have
> |tried every variation I can think of and am now wondering whether it may
> |have been drawn from the Spanish 'sucio/cia' (meaning dirty/filthy) as
> |this is the only possible derivation I seem to be able to find!
>
> If this is true, perhaps there are some other instances of an
> intervocalic Spanish /s/ turning into an intervocalic Nawatl /ch/ ?
>
> This kind of sound shift would be very useful if it appears in other
> Spanish/Nawatl word pairs.
>
>
>

"...and cicadas sing
a rare and different tune..."

R. Hunter


From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU  Tue Jul  6 20:50:39 2004
From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:50:39 -0500
Subject: Translation help
In-Reply-To: <003d01c46363$042c22d0$e2d28351@Caroline>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.155039.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Caroline,

Could you cite the passage in question, textually and its location?  It
seems likely that flower is being related to moral qualities, perhaps a
likening of sensuous to perverse, but one would have to see the context
because the word's literal meaning doesn't say perverse.
There would also be the close phonetic match of xochioia meaning bewitched
and perhaps Anderson and Dibble decided that was the intended statement.



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From ced44 at CAM.AC.UK  Tue Jul  6 21:45:52 2004
From: ced44 at CAM.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:45:52 +0100
Subject: suchioa
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.224552.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Apologies to all those who have requested that I cite the passage.

The reason that I didn't give more context at the time is the the term is a title, not part of a text. It comes from the Florentine Codex, Book 10, The People and is the title to the section presented in the facing text as that concerning 'The Pervert'. I am doing some research on Aztec gender and sexuality, which is why I was trying to trace the roots of the word (to try and examine its implications). I am wondering now whether it is simply a case that Sahagún was told by his informants that this was the meaning of the term - you would, however, expect some kind of logical root. 

I do not have the Nahuatl passage here, but will have to look it up when I next am in the library. If anyone is able to supply it so that we can continue the discussion then that would be much appreciated. The original is from the Florentine Codex, Book 10, The People, p. 37 (from the 1961 Dibble and Anderson edition). For purposes of identification, the English translation of the text which follows the  heading Suchioa/Pervert is: "The pervert [is] of feminine speech, of feminine mode of address. [If a woman, she is] of masculine speech, of masculine mode of address; [she has] a vulva, a crushed vulva, a friction-loving vulva. [He is] a corrupter, a deranger; one who deprives one of his reason. She rubs her vulva on one; she perverts, confuses, corrupts one."

Thanks for all who have offered helpful comments despite my inadequate quotation!

Yours,
Caroline
----
History Faculty
University of Cambridge
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From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU  Tue Jul  6 22:29:29 2004
From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 17:29:29 -0500
Subject: suchioa
In-Reply-To: <013801c463a2$9c852600$e2d28351@Caroline>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.172929.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Caroline,

I think this more literally would be "The Sensualist," but note also that
Dibble and Anderson translated "to bewitch one" (texochihuia) as "she
perverts."  I also note that they translate pix as vulva which is not
found later in the same book nor does Lopez Austin, who also drew from
Molina, include it in his diagrams in _The Human Body_.  I'd be happy to
know a little bit more about the history of this passage, which is not
included in the _Historia General_, and its translations.  Finally, I
think we could consider the parenthetical (If a woman). . .talks like a
man. . .a hypothesis and that the passage might refer to ambivalent gender
in general, thus men and women who are both like men and like women.


best,
Mark Morris

















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Tue Jul  6 22:59:30 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:59:30 -0400
Subject: intervocalic s > ch
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0407061252471.4183-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.185930.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

on 7/6/04 3:55 PM, Matthew Montchalin at mmontcha at OREGONVOS.NET wrote:

> |I am trying to check the translation of a term from the Florentine
> |Codex and am having trouble tracing how it has been derived. The term is
> |'suchioa', which is given by Dibble and Anderson as 'pervert'. I have
> |tried every variation I can think of and am now wondering whether it may
> |have been drawn from the Spanish 'sucio/cia' (meaning dirty/filthy) as
> |this is the only possible derivation I seem to be able to find!
>
There is a Nahuatl intransitive verb xo:chiyoa:, which means 'to bloom, to
flower."  I don't see how this can be glossed as 'pervert.' Can you give us
the reference in the FC?


From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM  Tue Jul  6 21:53:28 2004
From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:53:28 +0200
Subject: Postpositions
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.235328.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

  In analyzing postpositions, and after having consulted various sources, I
find myself confused (again!), about the difference between the following:

    1.. PA and HUIC (towards)
    2.. ICAMPA and TEPOTZCO (behind)
    3.. ICPAC and PAN (on)
    4.. IXPAN and IXCO (in front of  [in the face of])
    5.. NAHUAC, TITLAN, HUAC and TECH (near)
    6.. NEPANTLA and TZALAN (between)




  And, further, what happens when you add a possessive prefix ending in "O"
(or "I") to a postposition starting with "I"? MOICAMPA, TOIXPAN, NOIXCO....
and IICPAC...

  This looks a bit odd to me.



  Occepa, tlazohcamati huel  huel miac!!!!



  Susanatontli


From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Tue Jul  6 23:09:05 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 19:09:05 -0400
Subject: suchioa
In-Reply-To: <013801c463a2$9c852600$e2d28351@Caroline>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.190905.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

on 7/6/04 5:45 PM, Caroline Dodds at ced44 at CAM.AC.UK wrote:

Apologies to all those who have requested that I cite the passage.

The reason that I didn't give more context at the time is the the term is a
title, not part of a text. It comes from the Florentine Codex, Book 10, The
People and is the title to the section presented in the facing text as that
concerning 'The Pervert'. I am doing some research on Aztec gender and
sexuality, which is why I was trying to trace the roots of the word (to try
and examine its implications). I am wondering now whether it is simply a
case that Sahagún was told by his informants that this was the meaning of
the term - you would, however, expect some kind of logical root.

I do not have the Nahuatl passage here, but will have to look it up when I
next am in the library. If anyone is able to supply it so that we can
continue the discussion then that would be much appreciated. The original is
from the Florentine Codex, Book 10, The People, p. 37 (from the 1961 Dibble
and Anderson edition). For purposes of identification, the English
translation of the text which follows the  heading Suchioa/Pervert is: "The
pervert [is] of feminine speech, of feminine mode of address. [If a woman,
she is] of masculine speech, of masculine mode of address; [she has] a
vulva, a crushed vulva, a friction-loving vulva. [He is] a corrupter, a
deranger; one who deprives one of his reason. She rubs her vulva on one; she
perverts, confuses, corrupts one."


This begins to make sense.  A:huiyanimeh, 'courtesans, women of pleasure'
(literally 'ones who habitually enjoy themselves') were conventionally
depicted with their hair loosened, standing on water (symbolizing the first
syllable of the word a:huiyani), and holding flowers.  So we are not likely
looking at the verb meaning to blossom, but rather to the possessor
construction:

xo:chi-yo:-huah 'one who possesses a bunch of flowers'



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From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM  Wed Jul  7 05:30:31 2004
From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 06:30:31 +0100
Subject: suchioa
In-Reply-To: <BD10A951.2E40%karttu@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.063031.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

--- Frances Karttunen <karttu at NANTUCKET.NET> wrote:
> This begins to make sense.  A:huiyanimeh, 'courtesans, women of
> pleasure' ... and holding flowers. So we are not likely
> looking at the verb meaning to blossom, but rather to the possessor
> construction:
> xo:chi-yo:-huah 'one who possesses a bunch of flowers'

Or, did Aztec courtesans habitually carry flowers?


From chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jul  7 06:18:35 2004
From: chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM (marcelo)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 03:18:35 -0300
Subject: suchioa
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.031835.0300.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

yes, they did. cortes letters, as a first refernce.... mens at arms, men
with flowers...
 
-------Mensaje original-------
 
De: Nahua language and culture discussion
Fecha: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 03:03:18
A: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Asunto: Re: suchioa
 
--- Frances Karttunen <karttu at NANTUCKET.NET> wrote:
> This begins to make sense. A:huiyanimeh, 'courtesans, women of
> pleasure' ... and holding flowers. So we are not likely
> looking at the verb meaning to blossom, but rather to the possessor
> construction:
> xo:chi-yo:-huah 'one who possesses a bunch of flowers'

Or, did Aztec courtesans habitually carry flowers? 
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From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU  Wed Jul  7 13:38:07 2004
From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:38:07 -0400
Subject: suchioa
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.093807.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

>     This begins to make sense.  A:huiyanimeh, 'courtesans, women of
>     pleasure' (literally 'ones who habitually enjoy themselves') were
>     conventionally depicted with their hair loosened, standing on water
>     (symbolizing the first syllable of the word a:huiyani), and holding
>     flowers.  So we are not likely looking at the verb meaning to
>     blossom, but rather to the possessor construction:
>
>     xo:chi-yo:-huah 'one who possesses a bunch of flowers'


If this is correct, then it would seem that this is another example of
what Alexis was talking about with regard to "iniacapepech" which leaves
out the "y".
But how do we know that there is a "yo:" in there?
It seems to me that the "oa" in "suchioa" may just be "hua" rather than
"yo:hua."
"xo:chiyo:huah" would mean something like "one who possesses what is
characteristic of flowers or the essence of flowers." "xo:chihuah" would
be more literally, "one who possesses flowers" which would be consistent
with words like "xochihuia" literally meaning "to apply flowers" with
the figurative meaning "to seduce."
Galen


From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Wed Jul  7 13:49:48 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:49:48 -0400
Subject: suchioa
In-Reply-To: <40EBFCBF.1070509@buffalo.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.094948.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

> But how do we know that there is a "yo:" in there?

Actually we don't, and I think your understanding of "suchioa" as
xo:chi-huah is more likely.

Fran


From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU  Wed Jul  7 14:16:55 2004
From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:16:55 -0400
Subject: nepohualtziztin
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.101655.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I was wondering if anyone has run across the term nepohualtzitzin or
something with a similiar meaning.
Boturini claims that the Nahuas employed a system of knotted, colored
strings to record historical information. He says this system was called
nepohualtzitzin, and he compares it to the Peruvian quipu. As far as I
know, this is the only reference to such a system in Mesoamerica. He
claims that he saw one of these devices in Tlaxcala but that it was very
old and deteriorated. I was wondering if anybody had come across any
other references to anything similar. As far as I know, this does not
appear in any way in the Florentine, which makes Boturini's much later
assertion seem kind of suspicious.
Thanks,
Galen


From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Wed Jul  7 15:45:00 2004
From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 17:45:00 +0200
Subject: intervocalic s > ch
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.174500.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Its important to take into consideration the period when discussing Spanish
orthographic <s>. The 16th century Spanish orthographic <s> had a distinct
realization from the (Mexican) Spanish /s/ today. It probably had a
different point of articulation and intervocalically it was voiced. The <s>
was used to represent the palatal /x/ in the 16th century for various
Mesoamerican indigenous languages.

Instances of intervocalic /x/ > /ch/ seem to be quite uncommon in Nahuatl. A
few examples are given by Karen Dakin and Soren Wichmann in their 2000
Ancient Mesoamerica article on Cacao and Chocolate; all seem to be cases of
progressive assimilation. (e.g. chal=xiwi-tl > chalchihuitl).


-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Montchalin [mailto:mmontcha at OREGONVOS.NET]
Sent: dinsdag 6 juli 2004 21:56
To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Subject: intervocalic s > ch


|I am trying to check the translation of a term from the Florentine
|Codex and am having trouble tracing how it has been derived. The term is
|'suchioa', which is given by Dibble and Anderson as 'pervert'. I have
|tried every variation I can think of and am now wondering whether it may
|have been drawn from the Spanish 'sucio/cia' (meaning dirty/filthy) as
|this is the only possible derivation I seem to be able to find!

If this is true, perhaps there are some other instances of an
intervocalic Spanish /s/ turning into an intervocalic Nawatl /ch/ ?

This kind of sound shift would be very useful if it appears in other
Spanish/Nawatl word pairs.


From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Wed Jul  7 16:18:29 2004
From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 18:18:29 +0200
Subject: -in- as clause introducer
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.181829.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

The syntactic function of 'in' is extremely interesting. I would be very
glad to have a good grammatical description of it in modern variants of
Nahuatl. Regarding Classical Nahuatl, I have found Launey's work very
helpful in this. His well ordered examples are fantastic. 

To complement the Andrews citation, here's what Launey writes in his 1994
book regarding relatives:
"Il y a cependant en nahuatl une autre tournure qu'on peut appeler
relative... Il s'agit en effet d'une structure de type propositionnel,
introduite par in, et le plus souvent postposée à un antécédent
obligatoirement nominal. Cet antécédent peut être coréférent dans la
relative du sujet d'un prédicat verbal ou (plus rarement) nominal (type
qui);...de l'objet d'un prédicat verbal (type que);... du génitif d'un nom
(type dont) ou d'un locatif (relatives en relation circonstancielle).
L'antécédent peut être un déictique. La coréférence peut se faire avec une
structure elle-même dominée par un prédicat...Il y a quelques rares exemples
de relatives antéposées, pour lesquelles on peut faire le même raisonnement
qu'à propos des épithètes--c'est à dire: il faut considérer que c'est bien
le nom qui suit qui est l'antécédent" (pp. 122-23).

-----Original Message-----
From: John F. Schwaller [mailto:schwallr at MRS.UMN.EDU]
Sent: dinsdag 6 juli 2004 15:42
To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Subject: -in- as clause introducer


Andrews does touch on -tin as a clause introducer.  In the Second edition
he writes:

"2. Adjunctors (adjoined-clause introducers)
in = the, a/an, who, that, when, if, etc. [The adjunctor par
excellence.  The translation into English is whatever the English context
requires.  The use of -in- to indicate adjoined units is almost always
option; adjunction (or subordination) rarely has to be explicitly stated in
Nahuatl.  The -in- may indicate that only a single item is subordinate or
that a multi-itemed sequence is.] " p. 40




John F. Schwaller
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
315 Behmler Hall
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at mrs.umn.edu


From smarcos at INFOSEL.NET.MX  Wed Jul  7 17:06:23 2004
From: smarcos at INFOSEL.NET.MX (Dra. Sylvia Marcos)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:06:23 -0500
Subject: -in- as clause introducer
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.120623.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Swanton, M." <M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
To: <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: -in- as clause introducer


The syntactic function of 'in' is extremely interesting. I would be very
glad to have a good grammatical description of it in modern variants of
Nahuatl. Regarding Classical Nahuatl, I have found Launey's work very
helpful in this. His well ordered examples are fantastic.

To complement the Andrews citation, here's what Launey writes in his 1994
book regarding relatives:
"Il y a cependant en nahuatl une autre tournure qu'on peut appeler
relative... Il s'agit en effet d'une structure de type propositionnel,
introduite par in, et le plus souvent postposée à un antécédent
obligatoirement nominal. Cet antécédent peut être coréférent dans la
relative du sujet d'un prédicat verbal ou (plus rarement) nominal (type
qui);...de l'objet d'un prédicat verbal (type que);... du génitif d'un nom
(type dont) ou d'un locatif (relatives en relation circonstancielle).
L'antécédent peut être un déictique. La coréférence peut se faire avec une
structure elle-même dominée par un prédicat...Il y a quelques rares exemples
de relatives antéposées, pour lesquelles on peut faire le même raisonnement
qu'à propos des épithètes--c'est à dire: il faut considérer que c'est bien
le nom qui suit qui est l'antécédent" (pp. 122-23).

-----Original Message-----
From: John F. Schwaller [mailto:schwallr at MRS.UMN.EDU]
Sent: dinsdag 6 juli 2004 15:42
To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Subject: -in- as clause introducer


Andrews does touch on -tin as a clause introducer.  In the Second edition
he writes:

"2. Adjunctors (adjoined-clause introducers)
in = the, a/an, who, that, when, if, etc. [The adjunctor par
excellence.  The translation into English is whatever the English context
requires.  The use of -in- to indicate adjoined units is almost always
option; adjunction (or subordination) rarely has to be explicitly stated in
Nahuatl.  The -in- may indicate that only a single item is subordinate or
that a multi-itemed sequence is.] " p. 40




John F. Schwaller
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
315 Behmler Hall
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at mrs.umn.edu


From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU  Wed Jul  7 19:58:10 2004
From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:58:10 -0500
Subject: nepohualtziztin
In-Reply-To: <40EC05D7.6030607@buffalo.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.145810.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Galen,

I think someone was pulling his leg.  Although possible, if there is
no other reference to that instrument in Mesoamerica it wouldn't be safe
to give Boturini's claim credence.  Although he says Nahuas, you might do
best by checking on the Otomi who were an older culture and more renowned
for their textiles and which were also often historical texts.

best,
Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU  Wed Jul  7 20:24:38 2004
From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:24:38 -0400
Subject: nepohualtziztin
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.162438.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Hey Mark,
Yeah, well I also have this theory about quipu forgeries, but Boturini
is a little early for this. The first quipu forgery that shows up is in
the 1820s in England. Interestingly, the first image of this forged
quipu appears in 1830 in Kingsborough's ANTIQUITIES OF MEXICO.
But I wonder if Boturini's reference to nepohualtzitzin as basically a
kind of quipu is what prompted the inclusion of a quipu--which of course
at the time they did not know was a fake--in what is otherwise a
reproduction of Mexican manuscripts.
Galen




Mark David Morris wrote:
> Galen,
>
> I think someone was pulling his leg.  Although possible, if there is
> no other reference to that instrument in Mesoamerica it wouldn't be safe
> to give Boturini's claim credence.  Although he says Nahuas, you might do
> best by checking on the Otomi who were an older culture and more renowned
> for their textiles and which were also often historical texts.
>
> best,
> Mark Morris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> La muerte tiene permiso a todo
>
> MDM, PhD Candidate
> Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
>


From cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jul  8 16:03:30 2004
From: cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET (Joanna M. Sanchez)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:03:30 -0400
Subject: Molina out of print
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUL.2004.120330.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I was lucky to have found Porrua's Molina vocab. a few years back being sold
by Libros Latinos (although their prices are questionable!); you might try
with them.  JS
----- Original Message -----
From: <idiez at MAC.COM>
To: <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 10:47 PM
Subject: Molina out of print


The Molina dictionary is definitely out of print. You can't order it
from Porrúa, and it's not available at the Gandhi or Sótano in Mexico
City. If you want a copy, you need to hunt around at individual
bookstores.
John

John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
Unidad Académica de Idiomas
Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas
Director
Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C.
Tacuba 152, int. 47
Centro Histórico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
México
Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985
idiez at mac.com
www.idiez.org.mx=


From jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Fri Jul  9 21:27:43 2004
From: jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9?= Rabasa)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:27:43 -0700
Subject: yneyxcahuiltlamachiliztzin
In-Reply-To: <40EC5C06.7000608@buffalo.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUL.2004.142743.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I am working with Chimalpahin's Diario and could benefit from
insights on the followin passage:

"ca amono huel yxcoyantzinco yneyxcahuiltlamachiliztzin" (228)

Rafael Tena translates as "no se trata de enseñanza propia," which I
guess captures the sense but I am struggling with the morphology of
"yneyxcahuiltlamachiliztzin."

I have identified i:ne:ixcauia:li:tla:machilia:liz:tzin

For tlamachiliztli Karttunen gives "wisdom"

Molina has tlamachilia (nite) "arbitrar, juzgar entre partes o saber
y entender lo que otro esta pensando, o alcanzar saber algun secreto"

Molina gives various possibilities of "solo" for ixcauia. He also has
ixcauilaxca as "cosa propia mia." But I cannot make sense of the
whole.

I have the feeling that this word says more than Tena's laconic "enseñanza."

Thanks,

Jose


From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Fri Jul  9 22:10:01 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:10:01 -0400
Subject: yneyxcahuiltlamachiliztzin
In-Reply-To: <p04320406bd14b6ec5b6c@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUL.2004.181001.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

> 
> "ca amono huel yxcoyantzinco yneyxcahuiltlamachiliztzin" (228)
> 
> I have the feeling that this word says more than Tena's laconic "enseñanza."
> 


ixca:huia: can be used either reflexively or transitively. The prefix ne-
shows that in this case, it is reflexive.   The -l on the end makes it clear
that we are dealing with a nominalization from the verb, hence I would think
we are talking about singlemindedness here. The transitive verb machilia:
has the sense of discriminating among things (tla- being nonspecific
things).

The initial i- is, I am pretty sure the third-person possessive prefix.
(Notice the absence of a final absolutive suffix.)


So i:-ne-ixca:huil-tla-machiliz- would be something like 'his/her diligent
inquiry about things in general'

The -tzin implies politeness with respect to the possessor (not to the
abstract quality of inquiry).


Dos that seem more satisfying than simply "enseñanza"?

Fran


From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU  Sat Jul 10 01:59:25 2004
From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:59:25 -0500
Subject: yneyxcahuiltlamachiliztzin
In-Reply-To: <p04320406bd14b6ec5b6c@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUL.2004.205925.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Jose etc.

A more literal translation in high diction could be:

It was also not of his person (to have) his own understanding.


Ixcahui can also mean "to have in particular" and the IX in this and
ixcoyantzinco both refer to the public manifestation (or face) of the
thinking person.

best,
Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX  Wed Jul 14 02:07:33 2004
From: ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rita=20Monta=FFfffff1o?=)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:07:33 -0500
Subject: Consulta traducción
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUL.2004.210733.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Investigo sobre la "Vara de Mando" o "Bastón de Mando" que se entrega a las nuevas autoridades de los gobiernos indígenas tradicionales.
Leí una traducción de Topiltzin (Quetzalcoátl) como "Nuestro venerado bastón de autoridad" Me interesan muchísimo opiniones al respecto. Gracias.



---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Net: La mejor conexión a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes.
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From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Wed Jul 14 10:29:52 2004
From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:29:52 +0200
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_Consulta_traducci=F3n?=
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUL.2004.122952.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Hola Rita,
Si, de hecho la palabra nahuatl to:pi:lli ('vara de mando') parece al nombre
Topiltzin.  Si no estoy equivocado, de esta palabra (en su forma de
sustantivo posesivo, to:pi:leh) viene la palabra espanol topil (rondin or
policia comunitaria indigena).
Pero a mi conocimiento no se puede traducir la palabra Topiltzin como
"nuestra venerada vara de mando". El sufijo =tzin es un
honorifico/diminutivo. El prefijo posesivo de la primera persona plural es
to-. Asi si uno queria decir "nuestra venerada vara de mando" seria mas bien
toto:pi:ltzin.
Se puede analisar la palabra topiltzin asi: to- es el prefijo posesivo de la
primera persona plural (nuestro,-a); =tzin es el honorifico/diminutivo.
Queda entonces un raiz nominal pil, lo que quiere decir 'noble o nino' (la
forma absolutiva es pilli): "(es) nuestro honorado noble".
Si estas interesada en las varas de mando, vale la pena ojear los codices
mixtecos; tienen algunas representaciones de ellas.
Saludos,
Mike Swanton

-----Original Message-----
From: Rita Montaÿfffff1o [mailto:ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX]
Sent: woensdag 14 juli 2004 4:08
To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Subject: Consulta traducción


 
Investigo sobre la "Vara de Mando" o "Bastón de Mando" que se entrega a las
nuevas autoridades de los gobiernos indígenas tradicionales.
Leí una traducción de Topiltzin (Quetzalcoátl) como "Nuestro venerado bastón
de autoridad" Me interesan muchísimo opiniones al respecto. Gracias.




  _____  

Do You Yahoo!?
 <http://net.yahoo.com.mx> Yahoo! Net: La mejor conexión a internet y 25MB
extra a tu correo por $100 al mes <http://net.yahoo.com.mx/> .


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From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU  Thu Jul 15 16:53:06 2004
From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:53:06 -0500
Subject: Notas
In-Reply-To: <71F249219F2E3845B88BE93BEC6DA4FB028B682F@lsa-m2.lsa.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUL.2004.115306.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

>From La Jornada de Oriente, 15 julio


Denuncian acoso policiaco contra un centro de cultura náhuatl en Huitziltepec

Fermín Alejandro García q Desde hace tres años en Santa Clara Huitziltepec se
estableció un templo religioso de la tradición náhuatl en el cual se rinde
culto a Tonantzin o guadalupana, que es “la madre tierra”. Desde de la semana
pasada, presuntos agentes de la Policía Estatal han estado amedrentando al
creador de este lugar y a los pobladores que asisten a dicho sitio.

La primera agresión ocurrió el sábado 10 de julio, cuando a las 3 de la tarde
llegó al centro religioso en cuestión, también conocido como “la capilla del
cerrito”, un supuesto grupo de siete agentes de la Policía Estatal, los cuales
portando armas de grueso calibre y apuntando hacia la gente que estaba ahí,
tomaron fotografías del lugar.
El creador y encargado de ese centro religioso, Citlalxochitzin Topalzin, en
entrevista con La Jornada de Oriente, narró que mandó a un niño a preguntar a
los uniformados qué estaban haciendo. Los agentes le respondieron que estaban
recabando información acerca del responsable del templo.

No le dio importancia a lo sucedido ­dijo­, pues al comentarlo con otras personas
le dijeron que probablemente los policías iban de paso y la curiosidad los
llevó a entrar al templo, aunque al mismo tiempo le hicieron la observación de
que no es habitual que agentes policiacos lleguen a la comunidad.

El martes de esta semana, al mediodía, Citlalxochitzin Topalzin estaba debajo
de un árbol, dialogando con un grupo de alumnos que tiene de la primaria del
pueblo. A unos metros de distancia, por espacio de cinco minutos, de nueva
cuenta un grupo de supuestos agentes de la Policía Estatal, mal encarados, sin
dar explicaciones, lo estuvieron observando y tomándole fotografías.

Una mujer y un hombre de la comunidad, que conocen el funcionamiento de los
cuerpos de seguridad pública, alertaron a Citlalxochitzin acerca de que dos
grupos de las policías Estatal y Judicial, los primeros provenientes de
Huixcolotla y los segundos de Tecali de Herrera, lo andan vigilando para
intentar detenerlo.

A la gente del pueblo le ha indignado mucho lo que esta sucediendo, señala el
entrevistado, pues independientemente del culto que sea, la población considera
una grave ofensa que alguien entre con armas de fuego a un centro religioso y
se dedique a amedrentar. Además los presuntos policías que llegaron no han
querido dar una explicación de su presencia.

Conflictos con el sacerdote

Citlalxochitzin Topalzin es un joven estimado en la comunidad. Imparte clases
lo mismo en la primaria, que en secundaria y el bachillerato de este pueblo. En
el tercero de estos planteles, el gobierno lo dotó de computadoras, pero no de
maestro de cómputo. Topalzin, de manera voluntaria, sin cobrar, accedió a
enseñar a los alumnos el manejo de dicho equipo.

Hasta ahora no se ha involucrado con ninguno de los grupos políticos de la
comunidad. Solamente participa en actividades del Frente Zapatista y con
organizaciones indígenas. Cuando el 16 de junio de 2001 el Congreso de la Unión
aprobó una reforma constitucional en materia de derechos y cultura indígena sin
respetar los acuerdos de San Andrés Larráinzar, él decidió “entrar en rebeldía
contra el Estado mexicano”, por lo que incineró sus documentos oficiales y
mandó una carta de protesta a la presidencia de la República, pero sin agredir
a nadie.

La única persona que ha mostrado animadversión en su contra, sostiene, es un
párroco de apellido Nájera, quien no soporta que Citlalxochitzin Topalzin
difunda la tradición de la cultura náhuatl.

En varias ocasiones, en las homilías dominicales, el clérigo ha lanzado
diatribas contra el responsable de “la capilla del cerrito”.

Este cura, narra Topalzin, ha intervenido en los conflictos del pueblo,
revuelve la actividad religiosa con la política. Cuando hace algunos años había
una disputa entre grupos del PRD y el PRI de la alcaldía del municipio, el
sacerdote se identificó y luchó con una de estas fuerzas políticas.

Por esa razón no descarta que una queja del sacerdote haya generado el acoso
policiaco que ha sufrido en los últimos días.

El centro religioso que instaló en Huitziltepec, explicó Topalzin, tiene por
objeto el dar a conocer el arte, las costumbres y la cosmovisión de la cultura
náhuatl. Tanto indígenas de municipios vecinos como de la Sierra Norte y otras
partes del país han estado en este lugar para conocer un poco más de la
adoración de Tonantzin, que entre los indios es la guadalupana, “la madre de la
tierra”.

Hasta ahora, dijo, ha respetado la libertad de cultos y no ha agredido a los
católicos del pueblo; muchos de ellos al mismo tiempo son asiduos asistentes al
templo náhuatl.


From ealtamir at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jul 15 23:58:08 2004
From: ealtamir at YAHOO.COM (Edgar Altamirano)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:58:08 -0700
Subject: donde queda Huitziltepec ?
In-Reply-To: <1089910386.40f6b6720c32c@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUL.2004.165808.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

 Hola,

� Donde queda Huitziltepec ?

 Gracias,
 Edgar


--- mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU wrote:
> From La Jornada de Oriente, 15 julio
>
>
> Denuncian acoso policiaco contra un centro de cultura n�huatl en
> Huitziltepec
>
> Ferm�n Alejandro Garc�a q Desde hace tres a�os en Santa Clara
> Huitziltepec se
> estableci� un templo religioso de la tradici�n n�huatl en el cual se
> rinde
> culto a Tonantzin o guadalupana, que es �la madre tierra�. Desde de
> la semana
> pasada, presuntos agentes de la Polic�a Estatal han estado
> amedrentando al
> creador de este lugar y a los pobladores que asisten a dicho sitio.
>
> La primera agresi�n ocurri� el s�bado 10 de julio, cuando a las 3 de
> la tarde
> lleg� al centro religioso en cuesti�n, tambi�n conocido como �la
> capilla del
> cerrito�, un supuesto grupo de siete agentes de la Polic�a Estatal,
> los cuales
> portando armas de grueso calibre y apuntando hacia la gente que
> estaba ah�,
> tomaron fotograf�as del lugar.
> El creador y encargado de ese centro religioso, Citlalxochitzin
> Topalzin, en
> entrevista con La Jornada de Oriente, narr� que mand� a un ni�o a
> preguntar a
> los uniformados qu� estaban haciendo. Los agentes le respondieron que
> estaban
> recabando informaci�n acerca del responsable del templo.
>
> No le dio importancia a lo sucedido �dijo�, pues al comentarlo con
> otras personas
> le dijeron que probablemente los polic�as iban de paso y la
> curiosidad los
> llev� a entrar al templo, aunque al mismo tiempo le hicieron la
> observaci�n de
> que no es habitual que agentes policiacos lleguen a la comunidad.
>
> El martes de esta semana, al mediod�a, Citlalxochitzin Topalzin
> estaba debajo
> de un �rbol, dialogando con un grupo de alumnos que tiene de la
> primaria del
> pueblo. A unos metros de distancia, por espacio de cinco minutos, de
> nueva
> cuenta un grupo de supuestos agentes de la Polic�a Estatal, mal
> encarados, sin
> dar explicaciones, lo estuvieron observando y tom�ndole fotograf�as.
>
> Una mujer y un hombre de la comunidad, que conocen el funcionamiento
> de los
> cuerpos de seguridad p�blica, alertaron a Citlalxochitzin acerca de
> que dos
> grupos de las polic�as Estatal y Judicial, los primeros provenientes
> de
> Huixcolotla y los segundos de Tecali de Herrera, lo andan vigilando
> para
> intentar detenerlo.
>
> A la gente del pueblo le ha indignado mucho lo que esta sucediendo,
> se�ala el
> entrevistado, pues independientemente del culto que sea, la poblaci�n
> considera
> una grave ofensa que alguien entre con armas de fuego a un centro
> religioso y
> se dedique a amedrentar. Adem�s los presuntos polic�as que llegaron
> no han
> querido dar una explicaci�n de su presencia.
>
> Conflictos con el sacerdote
>
> Citlalxochitzin Topalzin es un joven estimado en la comunidad.
> Imparte clases
> lo mismo en la primaria, que en secundaria y el bachillerato de este
> pueblo. En
> el tercero de estos planteles, el gobierno lo dot� de computadoras,
> pero no de
> maestro de c�mputo. Topalzin, de manera voluntaria, sin cobrar,
> accedi� a
> ense�ar a los alumnos el manejo de dicho equipo.
>
> Hasta ahora no se ha involucrado con ninguno de los grupos pol�ticos
> de la
> comunidad. Solamente participa en actividades del Frente Zapatista y
> con
> organizaciones ind�genas. Cuando el 16 de junio de 2001 el Congreso
> de la Uni�n
> aprob� una reforma constitucional en materia de derechos y cultura
> ind�gena sin
> respetar los acuerdos de San Andr�s Larr�inzar, �l decidi� �entrar en
> rebeld�a
> contra el Estado mexicano�, por lo que inciner� sus documentos
> oficiales y
> mand� una carta de protesta a la presidencia de la Rep�blica, pero
> sin agredir
> a nadie.
>
> La �nica persona que ha mostrado animadversi�n en su contra,
> sostiene, es un
> p�rroco de apellido N�jera, quien no soporta que Citlalxochitzin
> Topalzin
> difunda la tradici�n de la cultura n�huatl.
>
> En varias ocasiones, en las homil�as dominicales, el cl�rigo ha
> lanzado
> diatribas contra el responsable de �la capilla del cerrito�.
>
> Este cura, narra Topalzin, ha intervenido en los conflictos del
> pueblo,
> revuelve la actividad religiosa con la pol�tica. Cuando hace algunos
> a�os hab�a
> una disputa entre grupos del PRD y el PRI de la alcald�a del
> municipio, el
> sacerdote se identific� y luch� con una de estas fuerzas pol�ticas.
>
> Por esa raz�n no descarta que una queja del sacerdote haya generado
> el acoso
> policiaco que ha sufrido en los �ltimos d�as.
>
> El centro religioso que instal� en Huitziltepec, explic� Topalzin,
> tiene por
> objeto el dar a conocer el arte, las costumbres y la cosmovisi�n de
> la cultura
> n�huatl. Tanto ind�genas de municipios vecinos como de la Sierra
> Norte y otras
> partes del pa�s han estado en este lugar para conocer un poco m�s de
> la
> adoraci�n de Tonantzin, que entre los indios es la guadalupana, �la
> madre de la
> tierra�.
>
> Hasta ahora, dijo, ha respetado la libertad de cultos y no ha
> agredido a los
> cat�licos del pueblo; muchos de ellos al mismo tiempo son asiduos
> asistentes al
> templo n�huatl.
>





__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
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From Spoole541 at AOL.COM  Sat Jul 17 16:59:45 2004
From: Spoole541 at AOL.COM (Stafford Poole)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:59:45 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Colecci=F3n=20G=F3mez=20de=20Orozco?=
Message-ID: <SAT.17.JUL.2004.125945.EDT.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Dear Neteros:

I am looking for information on the Colección Gómez de Orozco.  According to 
Virginia Guzmán Monroy in the introduction to her catalogue of that part of 
the collection that is now in the Biblioteca del Instituto Nacional de 
Antropología e Historia, the collection was divided and sold in 1944, with the major 
portion going to the Biblioteca.  She does not give much information about what 
happened to the rest it.  I am looking for a manuscript for a Nahuatl play, 
Coloquios de la Virgen Maria de Guadalupe, which was in the Colección but is not 
now in the Biblioteca.  I would appreciate any clues that you can give me.

Stafford Poole
Independent scholar


From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Mon Jul 19 14:10:49 2004
From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:10:49 +0200
Subject: donde queda Huitziltepec ?
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUL.2004.161049.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

If I'm not confusing it with another, Huitziltepec is on the road south from
Puebla to Tepexi after passing Tepeaca. Nahuatl and Popoloca used to be
spoken in this region, though today I don't believe there are any indigenous
language speakers there. Hopefully I am mistaken.

-----Original Message-----
From: Edgar Altamirano [mailto:ealtamir at YAHOO.COM]
Sent: vrijdag 16 juli 2004 1:58
To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Subject: Re: donde queda Huitziltepec ?


 Hola,

¿ Donde queda Huitziltepec ?

 Gracias,
 Edgar


--- mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU wrote:
> From La Jornada de Oriente, 15 julio
>
>
> Denuncian acoso policiaco contra un centro de cultura náhuatl en
> Huitziltepec
>
> Fermín Alejandro García q Desde hace tres años en Santa Clara
> Huitziltepec se
> estableció un templo religioso de la tradición náhuatl en el cual se
> rinde
> culto a Tonantzin o guadalupana, que es "la madre tierra". Desde de
> la semana
> pasada, presuntos agentes de la Policía Estatal han estado
> amedrentando al
> creador de este lugar y a los pobladores que asisten a dicho sitio.
>
> La primera agresión ocurrió el sábado 10 de julio, cuando a las 3 de
> la tarde
> llegó al centro religioso en cuestión, también conocido como "la
> capilla del
> cerrito", un supuesto grupo de siete agentes de la Policía Estatal,
> los cuales
> portando armas de grueso calibre y apuntando hacia la gente que
> estaba ahí,
> tomaron fotografías del lugar.
> El creador y encargado de ese centro religioso, Citlalxochitzin
> Topalzin, en
> entrevista con La Jornada de Oriente, narró que mandó a un niño a
> preguntar a
> los uniformados qué estaban haciendo. Los agentes le respondieron que
> estaban
> recabando información acerca del responsable del templo.
>
> No le dio importancia a lo sucedido ­dijo­, pues al comentarlo con
> otras personas
> le dijeron que probablemente los policías iban de paso y la
> curiosidad los
> llevó a entrar al templo, aunque al mismo tiempo le hicieron la
> observación de
> que no es habitual que agentes policiacos lleguen a la comunidad.
>
> El martes de esta semana, al mediodía, Citlalxochitzin Topalzin
> estaba debajo
> de un árbol, dialogando con un grupo de alumnos que tiene de la
> primaria del
> pueblo. A unos metros de distancia, por espacio de cinco minutos, de
> nueva
> cuenta un grupo de supuestos agentes de la Policía Estatal, mal
> encarados, sin
> dar explicaciones, lo estuvieron observando y tomándole fotografías.
>
> Una mujer y un hombre de la comunidad, que conocen el funcionamiento
> de los
> cuerpos de seguridad pública, alertaron a Citlalxochitzin acerca de
> que dos
> grupos de las policías Estatal y Judicial, los primeros provenientes
> de
> Huixcolotla y los segundos de Tecali de Herrera, lo andan vigilando
> para
> intentar detenerlo.
>
> A la gente del pueblo le ha indignado mucho lo que esta sucediendo,
> señala el
> entrevistado, pues independientemente del culto que sea, la población
> considera
> una grave ofensa que alguien entre con armas de fuego a un centro
> religioso y
> se dedique a amedrentar. Además los presuntos policías que llegaron
> no han
> querido dar una explicación de su presencia.
>
> Conflictos con el sacerdote
>
> Citlalxochitzin Topalzin es un joven estimado en la comunidad.
> Imparte clases
> lo mismo en la primaria, que en secundaria y el bachillerato de este
> pueblo. En
> el tercero de estos planteles, el gobierno lo dotó de computadoras,
> pero no de
> maestro de cómputo. Topalzin, de manera voluntaria, sin cobrar,
> accedió a
> enseñar a los alumnos el manejo de dicho equipo.
>
> Hasta ahora no se ha involucrado con ninguno de los grupos políticos
> de la
> comunidad. Solamente participa en actividades del Frente Zapatista y
> con
> organizaciones indígenas. Cuando el 16 de junio de 2001 el Congreso
> de la Unión
> aprobó una reforma constitucional en materia de derechos y cultura
> indígena sin
> respetar los acuerdos de San Andrés Larráinzar, él decidió "entrar en
> rebeldía
> contra el Estado mexicano", por lo que incineró sus documentos
> oficiales y
> mandó una carta de protesta a la presidencia de la República, pero
> sin agredir
> a nadie.
>
> La única persona que ha mostrado animadversión en su contra,
> sostiene, es un
> párroco de apellido Nájera, quien no soporta que Citlalxochitzin
> Topalzin
> difunda la tradición de la cultura náhuatl.
>
> En varias ocasiones, en las homilías dominicales, el clérigo ha
> lanzado
> diatribas contra el responsable de "la capilla del cerrito".
>
> Este cura, narra Topalzin, ha intervenido en los conflictos del
> pueblo,
> revuelve la actividad religiosa con la política. Cuando hace algunos
> años había
> una disputa entre grupos del PRD y el PRI de la alcaldía del
> municipio, el
> sacerdote se identificó y luchó con una de estas fuerzas políticas.
>
> Por esa razón no descarta que una queja del sacerdote haya generado
> el acoso
> policiaco que ha sufrido en los últimos días.
>
> El centro religioso que instaló en Huitziltepec, explicó Topalzin,
> tiene por
> objeto el dar a conocer el arte, las costumbres y la cosmovisión de
> la cultura
> náhuatl. Tanto indígenas de municipios vecinos como de la Sierra
> Norte y otras
> partes del país han estado en este lugar para conocer un poco más de
> la
> adoración de Tonantzin, que entre los indios es la guadalupana, "la
> madre de la
> tierra".
>
> Hasta ahora, dijo, ha respetado la libertad de cultos y no ha
> agredido a los
> católicos del pueblo; muchos de ellos al mismo tiempo son asiduos
> asistentes al
> templo náhuatl.
>





__________________________________
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New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From ced44 at CAM.AC.UK  Mon Jul 19 14:18:47 2004
From: ced44 at CAM.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:18:47 +0100
Subject: suchioa
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUL.2004.151847.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Re: suchioaThanks to all those who made suggestions in regard to 'suchioa'. I'm still not surely exactly how to interpret it, but I certainly have plenty to think about now.

Best wishes,
Caroline
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From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Mon Jul 19 16:26:44 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:26:44 -0500
Subject: Postpositions
In-Reply-To: <03a501c463ae$b42d8d40$c49bd351@mexico>
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUL.2004.112644.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Susana,

I don't have a *schematic* outline of how the members of the following
sets of postpositions are different from each other or how they are
similar, but I can toss out some idea and then see if others have ideas to
add.


On Tue, 6 Jul 2004, Susana Moraleda-Dragotto wrote:

>   In analyzing postpositions, and after having consulted various sources, I
> find myself confused (again!), about the difference between the following:
>
>     1.. PA and HUIC (towards)

-pa seems to be very powerful and widespread, attaching itself not only
nouns but to adverbs and particles:

o:mpa, to there, from there, or just plain there.
huehcapa from a distance
panipa  "surface" or even inside
ca:mpa to where? from where? where?
tla:lchipa |tla:l-chi-pa| 'earth-towards-towards'


note that -pa can be ***"from"*** as well as "to". In that way it does
differ from -hui:c which only means 'towards a certain direction':

nohui:c 'in my direction
te:hui:c 'in somebody's direction'

(*tlahui:c in the sense of "in something's direction' isn't used)

I don't remember every noticing *nopa or *amopa. Sounds funny to mean.
But you do see nohui:cpa, amohui:cpa, where -hui:c and -pa double up.

You also see -pa in other doublings of postpositions:

motlocpa 'from your direction', 'towards you'
totechpa 'on our part'
tla:lihticpa  'towards the inside of the earth' 'from the inside of the
earth'





>     2.. ICAMPA and TEPOTZCO (behind)

Hmmm..

Well, there is teicampa, micampa, tlaicampa, etc...

Behind the mountain is tepetl iicampa


But you also see tlatepotzco, notepotzco, tepetepotzco, nocaltepotzco

(I'm going to get lazy about marking long vowels.)

I think these two postpositions are pretty synonymous.




>     3.. ICPAC and PAN (on)

te:pan, mopan, you get those, meaning 'on someone, on you,' etc...

-icpac can mean that but it also means "over" and "above" not just on. I
believe the Spanish term is "en cima de" or something like that.

tepeticpac 'above the mountain(s)'
cuauhticpac 'above the tree(s)'

but it can mean just "on," as in tlalticpac 'upon the earth'.


>     4.. IXPAN and IXCO (in front of  [in the face of])


ixpan is essentially "presence"; ixco is essentially "face/surface
location"

but then ni:xco is translated "in my presence, before me". Hmmm...

But -i:xco does have the sense of "in/on one's face," in quixcomictic

'he/she hit him/her in the face". As far as 'surface' is concerned, you
get

things like tlai:xco 'on the surface of something' but that can also m ean
'in front of something'.

"In front of" and "in the presence of" can also be expressed by -ixtlan:

tixtlan 'in our presence'; teixtlan 'in somebody's presence', 'in front of
somebody'.


-ixco can combine readily with the personal pronoun prefixes:

nixco, mixco, iixco, tixco, amixco, etc.




>     5.. NAHUAC, TITLAN, HUAC and TECH (near)


I'm not sure what you mean by "HUAC"



-nahuac means 'within hearing distance'


-tlan has several functions or meanings:

iitlan calaqui 'he/she enters it'

atlan ticalaqui 'you are entering the water'

ximoteca noxcitlan 'Lie down at my feet"


-tech has the essential idea of "in contact with" but it can have abstract
meanings, too:

netech 'among one another'
itech 'concerning it, about it' (this is used a lot when describing the
contents of a document)
itech ocualan 'he/she got angry with him/her/it'
notoca McCafferty itech quiza in cahuayo "my name comes from 'horse'"

-tech also has an honorific form: tetzinco




>     6.. NEPANTLA and TZALAN (between)


-nepantlah basically means 'place of abundant sharing', i.e., "the
middle," where things are in common (ne:-pan-tlah):

innepantlah  'it is their middle ground'

cuauhnepantlah 'in the middle of the forest'
yohualnepantlah 'in the middle of the night'

tza:lan refers to the area between things, the midst of things

totza:lan 'among us'
i:ntza:lan 'among them'
amotza:lan 'among you all'

cuauhtzalan 'among the trees'




>
>
>
>
>   And, further, what happens when you add a possessive prefix ending in "O"
> (or "I") to a postposition starting with "I"? MOICAMPA, TOIXPAN, NOIXCO....
> and IICPAC...
>
>   This looks a bit odd to me.
>
>
I think Fran mentioned the rule a couple three weeks ago. The short
initial i- of many words is considered a "supportive vowel" and will
disappear when prefixed. Long initial i- (i:-) does not constitute a
supportive vowel, so it will not disappear. Also, the short initial i- of
some terms is not a supportive vowel.

In the case of -i:xco, the long initial i:- will not drop:

nixco, mixco, ixco (iixco), tixco, amixco, imixco, teixco, tlaixco


In the case of -ihtic, the initial short i does not drop:

nihtic, mihtic, iihtic, tihtic, amihtic, imihtic, teihtic, tlaihtic

But in the case of -(i)cpac, the short initial i drops:

nocpac, mocpac, tocpac, amocpac

You just have to learn which terms behave in which way.



I realize that what I've offered is organized very efficiently. I hope you
can still derive some benefit from it.

Michael


From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM  Tue Jul 20 22:45:11 2004
From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:45:11 +0200
Subject: Plaza de las 3 Culturas
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.004511.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

    De casualidad alguien tendria la version en Nahuatl de la placa que esta en la Plaza de las 3 Culturas:

    "EL 13 DE AGOSTO DE 1521

    HEROICAMENTE DEFENDIDO POR CUAUHTEMOC

    CAYO TLALTELOLCO EN PODER DE HERNAN CORTES

    NO FUE TRIUNFO NI DERROTA

    FUE EL DOLOROSO NACIMIENTO DEL PUEBLO MESTIZO

    QUE ES EL MEXICO DE HOY"

    Mil gracias.

    Susana


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From ced44 at CAM.AC.UK  Wed Jul 21 15:12:16 2004
From: ced44 at CAM.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:12:16 +0100
Subject: suchioa
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.161216.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Hi again.

For those who requested at the time that I provide the text from which the
term 'suchioa' was derived, here is the context (glossed in accordance with
Dibble and Anderson).

SUCHIOA
in suchioa cioatlatole, cioanotzale, oquichtlatole, oquichnotzale, pixe,
pixtlatexe, pixtlaxaqualole, teiollocuepani, teiolmalacachoani,
tenanacauiani, tepixuia, tesuchiuia, teixmalacachoa, teiolcuepa.

I hope that this satisfies curiosity and perhaps might help to clarify
things!

Best wishes,
Caroline

82 Fountain Gardens
Windsor
Berkshire
SL4 3SX
Tel: 01753 856011
Mob: 07740675610


From rsw22 at CORNELL.EDU  Wed Jul 21 14:59:11 2004
From: rsw22 at CORNELL.EDU (Randall Wood)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:59:11 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / =?iso-8859-1?Q?ficci=F3?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?n?=
 Nahuatl
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.105911.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Good day all,

I'm new to the list, so I wanted to introduce myself.  I won't have much to
contribute here, but I wanted to tell you a little about my interest in the
Nahuatl culture.  I've lived and worked in Nicaragua for over 5 years, and
married a Nicaraguan woman named Ericka.  I am also co-author to the
best-selling English language travel guidebook to Nicaragua, published by Moon
handbooks.

The Nicaraguans know their ancestors are Nahautl and regional place names
prove the link, but there are few resources available about the precolombian
history of the country.  My interest in that era led me to conceive a piece of
fiction I'm currently developing into a short novel, set in the time the
Nahuatl people migrated south towards Central America.

I look forward to interacting with everyone here, and would appreciate it if
you could point me any existing works of fiction about the Nahuatls, to make
sure I'm not beginning to write something that already exists!

Best wishes,

Randy
http://www.therandymon.com

Buenos días a todos:

Soy nuevo en esta lista, por lo cual me gustaría presentarme.  No tendré mucho
que contribuir aquí, pero quería decirles un poco sobre mi interes en la
cultura Nahuatl.  He vivido y trabajado en Nicaragua por más de 5 años, y me
casé con una Nicaragüense llamada Ericka.  Soy también el co-escritor de la
mejor vendidad guía turistica de Nicaragua escrita en inglés, publicada por
Moon Handbooks.

Los Nicaragüenses saben que sus raíces son Nahuatl y nombres regionales
prueban su vínculo, pero hay pocos recursos disponibles sobre la historia
precolombina.  Mi interes en ese período me llevó a concebir la idea de una
pieza de ficción la cual estoy actualmente desarrollando en una novela, basada
en el período en que los Nahuatl emigraron hacía centroamerica.

Me dará gusto interactuar con todos aquí, y me agradaría si Uds. me pudieran
indicar si existe ya algun libro sobre el mismo tema para así asegurarme de
que no estoy iniciando algo que ya existe.

Saludos,

Randy
http://www.therandymon.com


From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM  Wed Jul 21 18:42:16 2004
From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:42:16 +0100
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / ficción              Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <20040721145910.GC2840@zafiro.local>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.194216.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

--- Randall Wood <rsw22 at CORNELL.EDU> wrote:
> Good day all,
>. ... My interest in that era led me to conceive a piece of fiction
> I'm currently developing into a short novel, set in the time
> the Nahuatl people migrated south towards Central America. ...
 ... Mi interes en ese período me llevó a concebir la idea de una
> pieza de ficción la cual estoy actualmente desarrollando en una
> novela, basada en el período en que los Nahuatl emigraron hacía
> centroamerica. ...

What language will it be written in?
¿En qué lengua será escrito?

Was there ever a Nahatl-speaking population in and around Nicaragua, or
was there only a Nahuatl-speaking ruling and official class?
¿Había siempre una población en quien habló náhuatl y alrededor de
Nicaragua, o era allí solamente una clase predominante y la clase del
funcionario que habló náhuatl?


From institute at CSUMB.EDU  Wed Jul 21 22:37:26 2004
From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:37:26 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ficci=F3n?= Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <20040721145910.GC2840@zafiro.local>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.153726.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU> writes:
>I look forward to interacting with everyone here, and would appreciate it if
>you could point me any existing works of fiction about the Nahuatls, to make
>sure I'm not beginning to write something that already exists!

Dear Randy,

        If you have not already done so, you may wish to review the book by
Gary Jennings titled "Aztec."  This work constitutes a remarkable piece of fiction (warts and all) pertaining to the Nahua (specifically, Mexica Aztec) peoples of pre-Hispanic central Mexico.  See
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0812521463/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-7846545-7351014#reader-link for additional details.

Saludos,

Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director
Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization
Social and Behavioral Sciences
California State University Monterey Bay
100 Campus Center
Seaside, California 93955-8001

Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu
Voice: 831-582-3760
Fax: 831-582-3566
http://archaeology.csumb.edu
http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/





Confidentiality Notice:  The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information.  It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are
notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited.  If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and
delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected.

Thank you.


From institute at CSUMB.EDU  Wed Jul 21 22:42:17 2004
From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:42:17 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ficci=F3n?= Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <20040721184216.16977.qmail@web86705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.154217.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU> writes:
>Was there ever a Nahatl-speaking population in and around Nicaragua, or
>was there only a Nahuatl-speaking ruling and official class?

Dear Gary,

        As per this second question, you may wish to review William R. Fowler's work titled The Cultural Evolution of Ancient Nahua Civilizations: The Pipil-Nicarao of Central America (1989, Oklahoma).  His work, and that of scholars such as John Fox make
clear that central Mexican and Gulf Coast populations (such as those identified with descendant populations such as the Quiche) migrated into Central America at various points in Mesoamerican "prehistory."

Best,

Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director
Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization
Social and Behavioral Sciences
California State University Monterey Bay
100 Campus Center
Seaside, California 93955-8001

Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu
Voice: 831-582-3760
Fax: 831-582-3566
http://archaeology.csumb.edu
http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/





Confidentiality Notice:  The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information.  It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are
notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited.  If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and
delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected.

Thank you.


From davius_sanctex at TERRA.ES  Wed Jul 21 23:16:53 2004
From: davius_sanctex at TERRA.ES (davius sanctex)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:16:53 +0200
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Nahuatl_Fiction_/_ficci=F3n_Nahuatl?=
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.011653.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

But in Managua Lake there is a small island named /ometepe/ clearly one form
of nahuatl /ome-tepe-k/ (in fact the litte island is formed by two little
hills). I think that this was the territory of the "nicaraos", a people whom
Spaniards saw first time books in the New World. I think it is difficult
that a placename was given by the ruling class, perhaps the existence of a
placename like /ometepe/ 'two-hill-' suggest that there was some nahua
migrations to that latitude. [in fact the lacking /-k/ suggest that the
placename /ometepe/ was from a divergent form of nahuatl].

Am I dreaming about all this? :-)
Davius S.



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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From juan at PAPAQUI.COM  Wed Jul 21 23:46:02 2004
From: juan at PAPAQUI.COM (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ing._Juan_Manuel_Chavar=EDa?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:46:02 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_Nahuatl_Fiction_/_ficci=F3n______________Nahuatl?=
In-Reply-To: <20040721145910.GC2840@zafiro.local>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.184602.0500.>

        Dos novelas, que acontecen en el Mexico prehispanico:

        El Corazón de Piedra Verde / Salvador de Madariaga
        El Dios de la Lluvia Llora sobre México / Laszlo Passuth

-----Mensaje original-----
De: Nahua language and culture discussion
[mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU]En nombre de Randall Wood
Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2004 09:59 a.m.
Para: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Asunto: Nahuatl Fiction / ficción Nahuatl


Good day all,

I'm new to the list, so I wanted to introduce myself.  I won't have much to
contribute here, but I wanted to tell you a little about my interest in the
Nahuatl culture.  I've lived and worked in Nicaragua for over 5 years, and
married a Nicaraguan woman named Ericka.  I am also co-author to the
best-selling English language travel guidebook to Nicaragua, published by
Moon
handbooks.

The Nicaraguans know their ancestors are Nahautl and regional place names
prove the link, but there are few resources available about the precolombian
history of the country.  My interest in that era led me to conceive a piece
of
fiction I'm currently developing into a short novel, set in the time the
Nahuatl people migrated south towards Central America.

I look forward to interacting with everyone here, and would appreciate it if
you could point me any existing works of fiction about the Nahuatls, to make
sure I'm not beginning to write something that already exists!

Best wishes,

Randy
http://www.therandymon.com

Buenos días a todos:

Soy nuevo en esta lista, por lo cual me gustaría presentarme.  No tendré
mucho
que contribuir aquí, pero quería decirles un poco sobre mi interes en la
cultura Nahuatl.  He vivido y trabajado en Nicaragua por más de 5 años, y me
casé con una Nicaragüense llamada Ericka.  Soy también el co-escritor de la
mejor vendidad guía turistica de Nicaragua escrita en inglés, publicada por
Moon Handbooks.

Los Nicaragüenses saben que sus raíces son Nahuatl y nombres regionales
prueban su vínculo, pero hay pocos recursos disponibles sobre la historia
precolombina.  Mi interes en ese período me llevó a concebir la idea de una
pieza de ficción la cual estoy actualmente desarrollando en una novela,
basada
en el período en que los Nahuatl emigraron hacía centroamerica.

Me dará gusto interactuar con todos aquí, y me agradaría si Uds. me pudieran
indicar si existe ya algun libro sobre el mismo tema para así asegurarme de
que no estoy iniciando algo que ya existe.

Saludos,

Randy
http://www.therandymon.com


From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Thu Jul 22 00:02:08 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:02:08 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / ficci=?ISO-8859-1?B?8w==?=n Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f7aeb07c1a5753b9aca0082ef9af8.7c1a6bc@csumb.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.200208.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

on 7/21/04 6:37 PM, Archaeology Institute at institute at CSUMB.EDU wrote:

> Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU> writes:
>> I look forward to interacting with everyone here, and would appreciate it if
>> you could point me any existing works of fiction about the Nahuatls, to make
>> sure I'm not beginning to write something that already exists!
>

>
> The book by
> Gary Jennings titled "Aztec."  This work constitutes a remarkable piece of
> fiction (warts and all) pertaining to the Nahua (specifically, Mexica Aztec)
> peoples of pre-Hispanic central Mexico.



On the other hand, there are numbers of knowledgeable people who were
appalled by "Aztec." One responsible scholar, now deceased, felt that
Jennings had misled her about what he was doing. In publicly thanking her,
he appeared to put her imprimatur on a work she found outrageous. So take
this novel on with care.

As for me, after making my way through a few chapters of "Aztec" on an
interminable flight from London to DFW, I chose boredom over experiencing
any more of it and hesitated to even leave it on the plane for someone else
to find.

I suggest a work of nonfiction instead: Inga Clendinnen's 1991 book,
"Aztecs:  An Interpretation," published by Cambridge University Press. She
set out to convey what it was like to be a man, a woman, a child growing up
in Aztec society, and she does it with color and intensity.


From dfrye at UMICH.EDU  Thu Jul 22 01:30:30 2004
From: dfrye at UMICH.EDU (Frye, David L)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:30:30 -0400
Subject: Nicaragua / Nahuatl
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.213030.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

It is hard to infer the language / ethnicity of the indigenous inhabitants of a place by looking at the place name. Place names are easily translated from one language to another, and some places have multiple names in multiple languages. 
 
Almost all the place names on the map of Oaxaca are in Nahuatl (plus the Spanish saint name): these are the names given them originally by Nahua overlords, while the indigenous Mixtec, Zapotec, etc. speakers continue (to this day) to call the towns by their Mixtec, Zapotec, etc. names--which do not appear on any maps. 
 
The names of places all across Guatemala are Nahuatl translations of Maya place names, which were given not by Nahua overlords but by the Tlaxcalteca soldiers who conquered the country under Spanish rule. 
 
As for Nicaragua, ...?
 
In the case of Omotepec > Omotepe, the absence of final "c" could be a local pronunciation, or it just as likely could be a Spanish interpretation. (There is no final "c" in Spanish, and almost all Spanish speakers will either drop it or convert it to the syllable "que").

________________________________

From: Nahua language and culture discussion on behalf of davius sanctex
Sent: Wed 7/21/2004 7:16 PM
To: NAHUAT-L at lists.umn.edu
Subject: Re: Nahuatl Fiction / ficción Nahuatl



But in Managua Lake there is a small island named /ometepe/ clearly one form
of nahuatl /ome-tepe-k/ (in fact the litte island is formed by two little
hills). I think that this was the territory of the "nicaraos", a people whom
Spaniards saw first time books in the New World. I think it is difficult
that a placename was given by the ruling class, perhaps the existence of a
placename like /ometepe/ 'two-hill-' suggest that there was some nahua
migrations to that latitude. [in fact the lacking /-k/ suggest that the
placename /ometepe/ was from a divergent form of nahuatl].

Am I dreaming about all this? :-)
Davius S.



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX  Thu Jul 22 01:33:47 2004
From: ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rita=20Monta=FFfffff1o?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:33:47 -0500
Subject: Más novelas
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.203347.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Memorias de Doña  Isabel de Moctezuma de José Miguel Carrillo de Albornoz y Muñoz de San Pedro, Ed. Nueva Imagen, México, 1997. escrita por un pariente lejano, pero directo de Doña Isabel de Moctezuma- según reza la contraportada del libro- puede integrarse a la lista de sugerencias como  "Azteca", "El Corazón de Piedra Verde" y el trabajo  de Inga Clenninden, "Los Aztecas: Una interpretación" que definitivamente no es una novela, sino un excelente estudio histórico especialmente de los rituales y las emociones que, con ellos, se pretendía provocar. Saludos.



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Net: La mejor conexión a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes.
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From ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX  Thu Jul 22 01:51:31 2004
From: ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rita=20Monta=FFfffff1o?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:51:31 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / ficción              Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <20040721145910.GC2840@zafiro.local>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.205131.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>




Hola Randy:

También soy nueva en la lista, tengo como dos semanas. Te sugerí ya la novela Memorias de Doña Isabel de Moctezuma. Después recordé otra novela: "Gonzalo Guerrero: Memoria Olvidada Trauma de México, de Carlo Villa Roiz, Coedición de Plaza y Valdés Editores, y el Consejo Nacional para la Cultura y las Artes México, 1995; además, opino que aunque hubiera cientos de novelas sobre el tema, toda creación es única e irrepetible, si tienes el interés, el tiempo y los conocimientos, creo que tu trabajo contribuirá a profundizar en el conocimiento de la cultura náhuatl y eso es muy bueno.

Saludos. Rita



Randall Wood <rsw22 at CORNELL.EDU> wrote: Good day all,

I'm new to the list, so I wanted to introduce myself. I won't have much to
contribute here, but I wanted to tell you a little about my interest in the
Nahuatl culture. I've lived and worked in Nicaragua for over 5 years, and
married a Nicaraguan woman named Ericka. I am also co-author to the
best-selling English language travel guidebook to Nicaragua, published by Moon
handbooks.

The Nicaraguans know their ancestors are Nahautl and regional place names
prove the link, but there are few resources available about the precolombian
history of the country. My interest in that era led me to conceive a piece of
fiction I'm currently developing into a short novel, set in the time the
Nahuatl people migrated south towards Central America.

I look forward to interacting with everyone here, and would appreciate it if
you could point me any existing works of fiction about the Nahuatls, to make
sure I'm not beginning to write something that already exists!

Best wishes,

Randy
http://www.therandymon.com

Buenos días a todos:

Soy nuevo en esta lista, por lo cual me gustaría presentarme. No tendré mucho
que contribuir aquí, pero quería decirles un poco sobre mi interes en la
cultura Nahuatl. He vivido y trabajado en Nicaragua por más de 5 años, y me
casé con una Nicaragüense llamada Ericka. Soy también el co-escritor de la
mejor vendidad guía turistica de Nicaragua escrita en inglés, publicada por
Moon Handbooks.

Los Nicaragüenses saben que sus raíces son Nahuatl y nombres regionales
prueban su vínculo, pero hay pocos recursos disponibles sobre la historia
precolombina. Mi interes en ese período me llevó a concebir la idea de una
pieza de ficción la cual estoy actualmente desarrollando en una novela, basada
en el período en que los Nahuatl emigraron hacía centroamerica.

Me dará gusto interactuar con todos aquí, y me agradaría si Uds. me pudieran
indicar si existe ya algun libro sobre el mismo tema para así asegurarme de
que no estoy iniciando algo que ya existe.

Saludos,

Randy
http://www.therandymon.com




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From cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jul 22 01:58:45 2004
From: cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET (Roland Trevino)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:58:45 -0700
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.185845.0700.CLOUDJAGUAR@EARTHLINK.NET>

Re: Nahuatl Fiction / ficción NahuatlI am curious about the alternate meanings for Quetzalcoatl.
1) plumed serpent
2) blue-green bird serpent
are there others?

What about Precious Serpent -- is precious ever an alternate meaning for Quetzal?

~Roland
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From bortiz at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jul 22 02:01:21 2004
From: bortiz at EARTHLINK.NET (Bernard Ortiz de Montellano)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:01:21 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / =?iso-8859-1?Q?ficci=F3n?= Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <BD247C3F.2F5B%karttu@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.210121.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

>on 7/21/04 6:37 PM, Archaeology Institute at institute at CSUMB.EDU wrote:
>
>>  Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU> writes:
>>>  I look forward to interacting with everyone here, and would
>>>appreciate it if
>>>  you could point me any existing works of fiction about the
>>>Nahuatls, to make
>>>  sure I'm not beginning to write something that already exists!
>>
>
>>
>>  The book by
>>  Gary Jennings titled "Aztec."  This work constitutes a remarkable piece of
>>  fiction (warts and all) pertaining to the Nahua (specifically, Mexica Aztec)
>>  peoples of pre-Hispanic central Mexico.
>
>
>
>On the other hand, there are numbers of knowledgeable people who were
>appalled by "Aztec." One responsible scholar, now deceased, felt that
>Jennings had misled her about what he was doing. In publicly thanking her,
>he appeared to put her imprimatur on a work she found outrageous. So take
>this novel on with care.
>
>As for me, after making my way through a few chapters of "Aztec" on an
>interminable flight from London to DFW, I chose boredom over experiencing
>any more of it and hesitated to even leave it on the plane for someone else
>to find.
>
>I suggest a work of nonfiction instead: Inga Clendinnen's 1991 book,
>"Aztecs:  An Interpretation," published by Cambridge University Press. She
>set out to convey what it was like to be a man, a woman, a child growing up
>in Aztec society, and she does it with color and intensity.
I second Frances' view. I actually read the whole thong as  well as
several others by Jennings. What most appalled me was Jennings'
distortion of the puritanical Aztecs to fit his formula writing-- sex
in all combinations of  numbers, genders, and species-- he does the
same thing to Marco Polo's China.


From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU  Thu Jul 22 02:12:44 2004
From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:12:44 -0600
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.201244.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

>>> Roland Trevino <cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET> 07/21/04 20:03 PM >>>
Re: Nahuatl Fiction / ficción NahuatlI am curious about the alternate meanings for Quetzalcoatl.
1) plumed serpent
2) blue-green bird serpent
are there others?

What about Precious Serpent -- is precious ever an alternate meaning for Quetzal?
-----
[Richley]
I've heard it said so. To complicate matters, iirc, coatl may also mean "twin."

~Roland


From institute at CSUMB.EDU  Thu Jul 22 02:16:34 2004
From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:16:34 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / ficcion Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <BD247C3F.2F5B%karttu@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.191634.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU> writes:
>On the other hand, there are numbers of knowledgeable people who were
>appalled by "Aztec."

Dear Ms. Karttunen,

        I too am aware of the reaction to Jennings book...particularly from those (graduate students) who chose not to read the book because they had heard similar comments second hand.  I am of the belief that when "fiction" has the potential to elicit
such a reaction from the "pros," then clearly that fiction has done its job.  I, for one, believe that the narrative accomplished what no other "fictional" treatment and or narrative on the Mexica had done to date, and that is that it made Aztec
civilization readily available to those who might not otherwise have cared to examine it on any other level.  Let's face it, few scholars in the realm of Nahuatl studies ever manage to do that...

Best Regards,

Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director
Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization
Social and Behavioral Sciences
California State University Monterey Bay
100 Campus Center
Seaside, California 93955-8001

Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu
Voice: 831-582-3760
Fax: 831-582-3566
http://archaeology.csumb.edu
http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/





Confidentiality Notice:  The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information.  It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are
notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited.  If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and
delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected.

Thank you.


From institute at CSUMB.EDU  Thu Jul 22 02:24:07 2004
From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:24:07 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / ficcion Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <a0611040dbd24cfcb54bc@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.192407.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at lists.umn.edu> writes:
>I second Frances' view. I actually read the whole thong as  well as
>several others by Jennings. What most appalled me was Jennings'
>distortion of the puritanical Aztecs to fit his formula writing-- sex
>in all combinations of  numbers, genders, and species-- he does the
>same thing to Marco Polo's China.

Dear Bernard Ortiz de Montellano,

        I think that the reality is that the most "puritanical" of peoples are also capable of the most perverse acts where sex, morality, and politics are concerned.  Despite the early "puritanical" bent of the early colonial Americans, rape, pillage,
plunder, murder, mutilation, and a whole host of less than puritanical acts and actions were inflicted on Native America, and other Americans deemed worthy of the same.  My interest in Jennings does not center on the question of sex, or any
puritanical leanings that any of us might hold dear, but rather with the ability of Jennings to "create" the Mexica world from the shreds and patches of so many works that often fall short.

Best Regards,

Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director
Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization
Social and Behavioral Sciences
California State University Monterey Bay
100 Campus Center
Seaside, California 93955-8001

Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu
Voice: 831-582-3760
Fax: 831-582-3566
http://archaeology.csumb.edu
http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/





Confidentiality Notice:  The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information.  It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are
notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited.  If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and
delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected.

Thank you.


From institute at CSUMB.EDU  Thu Jul 22 02:27:55 2004
From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:27:55 -0700
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
In-Reply-To: <s0fece56.071@hass.usu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.192755.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at lists.umn.edu> writes:
>[Richley]
>I've heard it said so. To complicate matters, iirc, coatl may also mean "twin."

Is your reference here based on the term "cuate" or "mecuate"?  The mecuate derives from that term used to make reference to the "twin" that emerges as the offspring of the agave, metl or teometl, which reproduces itself as a twin via its offspring.

Best,

Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director
Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization
Social and Behavioral Sciences
California State University Monterey Bay
100 Campus Center
Seaside, California 93955-8001

Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu
Voice: 831-582-3760
Fax: 831-582-3566
http://archaeology.csumb.edu
http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/





Confidentiality Notice:  The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information.  It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are
notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited.  If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and
delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected.

Thank you.


From Pira at ASIES.ORG.GT  Thu Jul 22 02:23:53 2004
From: Pira at ASIES.ORG.GT (Juan Pablo Pira)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:23:53 -0600
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_Nahuatl_Fiction_/_ficci=F3n______________?=
 =?iso-8859-1?Q?Nahuatl?=
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.202353.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Randall Wood escribió:


and regional place names
prove the link, 

No siempre es así... una buena cantidad de los pueblos en el altiplano de
Guatemala tienen nombre en Nahuatl, pero los habitantes eran y son en su
mayoría hablantes de lenguas Mayas. Según parece, la razón de que se usen
estos nombres es una extraña herencia de la administración colonial
española.
My interest in that era led me to conceive a piece of
fiction I'm currently developing into a short novel, 

Excelente idea! Desde ya me imagino que el libro puede ser muy interesante. 

set in the time the
Nahuatl people migrated south towards Central America.

Bueno, hay otros "mexicanos" en Nicaragua... estaban los hablantes de
Subtiaba... 

Lo que no me suena es si hubo un momento en que se movieran en masa un grupo
de hablantes de Náhuatl hacia el sur y fueron dejando comunidades en el
camino como Pipiles en la Costa Sur de Guatemala y Baja Verapaz, hablantes
de Alagüilac (algunos dicen que se parecía al Nahuatl, no sé) en
Acasaguastlán, Más pipiles en El Salvador....creo que la opinión usual fue
algo más gradual y desde tiempos muy remotos...

Dijo otro compañero de lista...



> Was there ever a Nahatl-speaking population in and around Nicaragua, or
> was there only a Nahuatl-speaking ruling and official class?
> ¿Había siempre una población en quien habló náhuatl y alrededor de
> Nicaragua, o era allí solamente una clase predominante y la clase del
> funcionario que habló náhuatl?
> 
> 
No estoy seguro... lo que recuerdo al respecto sería un mapa (venerable por
su edad) de los años 30 en el libro "The Maya and Their Neighbors" que trata
de reconstruir la situación lingüística antes de la llegada de los
españoles.  Me imagino que el mapa se hace en base al común de la gente y no
a la elite.  Este mapa pone avanzadas de Nahuatl hasta en Panamá


Saludos,


Juan Pablo Pira
Centro de Estudios de Opinión Pública
ASIES


From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Thu Jul 22 03:35:09 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:35:09 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / ficcion Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f7aeb07c1db663b9aca0082ef9af8.7c1dcb1@csumb.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.233509.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

> I, for one, believe that the narrative [Jennings] accomplished what no other
"fictional"
> treatment and or narrative on the Mexica had done to date, and that is that it
> made Aztec
> civilization readily available to those who might not otherwise have cared to
> examine it on any other level.  Let's face it, few scholars in the realm of
> Nahuatl studies ever manage to do that...


Which is exactly why I suggested Clendinnen's [nonfictional] book.  If you
are looking for color and emotional intensity, you will find it there.

Whereas you say that Jennings makes "Aztec civilization readily available,"
I feel that what Jennings has made available is his particular set of lurid
fantasies, set forth with an eye to commercial success.

There is, by the way, another completely accessible book that used to
actually be sold in the Mexico City airport and may still be for all I know.
It is both accessible and accurate: Fernando Horcasitas's "The Aztecs Then
and Now."  A really lovely little book.


From rsw22 at CORNELL.EDU  Thu Jul 22 02:07:27 2004
From: rsw22 at CORNELL.EDU (Randall Wood)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:07:27 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / =?iso-8859-1?Q?ficci?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=F3n?=
In-Reply-To: <20040721184216.16977.qmail@web86705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.220727.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

> What language will it be written in?
> ¿En qué lengua será escrito?

English, I suppose.  If it's good enough, I'd translate it into Spanish, where
it would have a better audience, I suppose.  But since I'm mostly writing it
for myself, it's hard to imagine writing in anything except English, for now.

>
> Was there ever a Nahatl-speaking population in and around Nicaragua, or
> was there only a Nahuatl-speaking ruling and official class?
> ¿Había siempre una población en quien habló náhuatl y alrededor de
> Nicaragua, o era allí solamente una clase predominante y la clase del
> funcionario que habló náhuatl?

Nicaraguan tradition relates Gil Gonzalez and other conquistadores ran into
the Nicarao on the shores of Lake Cocibolca (Lago de Nicaragua), descendents
of the Nahuatl.  The Chorotega lived in small communities in the mountains,
and on the Atlantic coast were communities of Miskito, Zambo, Sumu (Mayangna)
and Rama.  I don't know anything about the Nahuatl being a class that ruled
others, but honestly I still know very little about the Nahuatl in general.

--

My Home Page: http://www.therandymon.com


From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Thu Jul 22 13:08:51 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:08:51 -0500
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
In-Reply-To: <001001c46f8f$6ca2edc0$7ae9b73f@rolandcrmw4dhe>
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.080851.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

"Quetzal" is from quetzalli '(it is) stood upright'. That's the long and
short of the *etymology*.



On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Roland Trevino wrote:

> Re: Nahuatl Fiction / ficci�n NahuatlI am curious about the alternate meanings for Quetzalcoatl.
> 1) plumed serpent
> 2) blue-green bird serpent
> are there others?
> 
> What about Precious Serpent -- is precious ever an alternate meaning for Quetzal?
> 
> ~Roland

"...and cicadas sing
a rare and different tune..."

R. Hunter


From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Thu Jul 22 14:13:31 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:13:31 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / ficci=?ISO-8859-1?B?8w==?=n
In-Reply-To: <20040722020727.GA2210@zafiro.local>
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.101331.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

> I don't know anything about the Nahuatl being a class that ruled
> others, but honestly I still know very little about the Nahuatl in general.


One thing is that "Na:huatl" is a noun used to mean 'clear, intelligible
speech.' It is related to the locative -na:huac meaning 'adjacent to.' So
Nahuatl is essentially language that can be heard and understood without
effort.

The people who spoke/still speak Nahuatl were those whose language was
mutually intelligible with that of the Me:xihcah (the Aztecs).  A single
such person is a Na:hua.  The plural (people whose language was intelligible
to the Me:xihcah) were/are Na:huah (ending with either an aspiration or a
glottal stop, depending on geographical location).

That said, most speakers of Na:huatl in Mexico call themselves Mexicans or
ma:ce:hualtin 'common people,' and they call their language mexicano or
na:huatlahto:lli 'clear speech' or ma:ce:huallahto:lli 'speech of the common
people.'

To the south of Mexico some speakers of related varieties of Na:huatl call
themselves Pipil, and people call their language Pipil too.

Fernando Horcasitas, James Lockhart and I, and many others associated with
Lockhart have translated lots and lots of Nahuatl direct discourse into
English, so besides the high rhetoric of the Florentine Codex, there are
authentic models of how ordinary Nahuah have spoken to each other from the
1500s right through to the 1960s (Horcasitas's edition of Luz Jimenez's
Memoir "Life and Death in Milpa Alta.")


From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Thu Jul 22 14:28:01 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:28:01 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / ficci=?ISO-8859-1?B?8w==?=n
In-Reply-To: <BD2543CA.2F6F%karttu@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.092801.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Frances Karttunen wrote:

>
> That said, most speakers of Na:huatl in Mexico call themselves Mexicans or
> ma:ce:hualtin 'common people,' and they call their language mexicano or
> na:huatlahto:lli 'clear speech' or ma:ce:huallahto:lli 'speech of the common
> people.'

and to say "I speak Nahuatl," you can say "nitlahtoa ma:ce:hualcopa".





>
> To the south of Mexico some speakers of related varieties of Na:huatl call
> themselves Pipil, and people call their language Pipil too.
>
> Fernando Horcasitas, James Lockhart and I, and many others associated with
> Lockhart have translated lots and lots of Nahuatl direct discourse into
> English, so besides the high rhetoric of the Florentine Codex, there are
> authentic models of how ordinary Nahuah have spoken to each other from the
> 1500s right through to the 1960s (Horcasitas's edition of Luz Jimenez's
> Memoir "Life and Death in Milpa Alta.")
>
>
>

"...and cicadas sing
a rare and different tune..."

R. Hunter


From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU  Thu Jul 22 15:36:28 2004
From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:36:28 -0600
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.093628.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

>>> institute at CSUMB.EDU 07/21/04 20:28 PM >>>
Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at lists.umn.edu> writes:
>[Richley]
>I've heard it said so. To complicate matters, iirc, coatl may also mean "twin."

Is your reference here based on the term "cuate" or "mecuate"?  The mecuate derives from that term used to make reference to the "twin" that emerges as the offspring of the agave, metl or teometl, which reproduces itself as a twin via its offspring.
-----
[Richley]
I've been at home and am not actually sure the source (or even accuracy of my memory about it). It likely was a nonlinguistic source such as "Rain of Darts" and may, therefore, be inaccurate. I'm going up to the office today and will see if I can find it.


From robert at COATLI.COM  Thu Jul 22 19:03:12 2004
From: robert at COATLI.COM (robert barkaloff)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:03:12 -0700
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Quetzalcoatl]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.120312.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>


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From robert at COATLI.COM  Thu Jul 22 19:14:51 2004
From: robert at COATLI.COM (robert barkaloff)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:14:51 -0700
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
In-Reply-To: <s0ff8aa6.068@hass.usu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.121451.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Richley Crapo wrote:

>>>>institute at CSUMB.EDU 07/21/04 20:28 PM >>>
>>>>
>>>>
>Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at lists.umn.edu> writes:
>
>
>>[Richley]
>>I've heard it said so. To complicate matters, iirc, coatl may also mean "twin."
>>
>>
>
>Is your reference here based on the term "cuate" or "mecuate"?  The mecuate derives from that term used to make reference to the "twin" that emerges as the offspring of the agave, metl or teometl, which reproduces itself as a twin via its offspring.
>-----
>[Richley]
>I've been at home and am not actually sure the source (or even accuracy of my memory about it). It likely was a nonlinguistic source such as "Rain of Darts" and may, therefore, be inaccurate. I'm going up to the office today and will see if I can find it.
>
>
Just off the top of my head, mecuate come from two root words: "metl-"
and "-coatl," and yes, "coatl" does also mean "twin."  Sometimes snakes
are shown with two heads, such as when they are used as belts in
sculpture -- I beleive this is a further play on the word for "twin" and
"snake."  Surprisingly, the modern meaning for "coatl" has survived and
is in common use in Mexican Spanish as "cuate," but only as "twin,"
while the word for snake has evolved, at least in some regions, to
"coa," as in "macoa" or "acoa" (atl-coatl).

Robert


From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU  Thu Jul 22 19:45:46 2004
From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:45:46 -0600
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.134546.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

My copy of "Rain of Darts" has been loaned out, but I think that's where I got the idea. Good author, but I think he was unaware of the two different words.
Richley 

>>> robert at COATLI.COM 07/22 1:14 PM >>>
Richley Crapo wrote:

>>>>institute at CSUMB.EDU 07/21/04 20:28 PM >>>
>>>>
>>>>
>Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at lists.umn.edu> writes:
>
>
>>[Richley]
>>I've heard it said so. To complicate matters, iirc, coatl may also mean "twin."
>>
>>
>
>Is your reference here based on the term "cuate" or "mecuate"?  The mecuate derives from that term used to make reference to the "twin" that emerges as the offspring of the agave, metl or teometl, which reproduces itself as a twin via its offspring.
>-----
>[Richley]
>I've been at home and am not actually sure the source (or even accuracy of my memory about it). It likely was a nonlinguistic source such as "Rain of Darts" and may, therefore, be inaccurate. I'm going up to the office today and will see if I can find it.
>
>
Just off the top of my head, mecuate come from two root words: "metl-"
and "-coatl," and yes, "coatl" does also mean "twin."  Sometimes snakes
are shown with two heads, such as when they are used as belts in
sculpture -- I beleive this is a further play on the word for "twin" and
"snake."  Surprisingly, the modern meaning for "coatl" has survived and
is in common use in Mexican Spanish as "cuate," but only as "twin,"
while the word for snake has evolved, at least in some regions, to
"coa," as in "macoa" or "acoa" (atl-coatl).

Robert


From ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX  Thu Jul 22 21:43:25 2004
From: ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rita=20Monta=FFfffff1o?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:43:25 -0500
Subject: Consulta
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.164325.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Hola a todos los miembros de la lista. Me presento. Soy Maestra en Ciencia  Política, investigo sobre la Vara de Mando que se utiliza en la ceremonia de transmisión del poder de las autoridades civiles en los gobiernos tradicionales indígenas. Necesito saber el significado del "Bastón de Xipe" (Con nudos blancos y rojos) y el del "Bastón de Venus" que aparece en los Códices Mixtecos. Agradeceré muchísimo sus comentarios.  No se cómo se dice en Inglés "Vara de Mando".
Hi. I studied Political Science, I've got a Master Degree. Now I'm working about an object wich is also a very important symbol the  "Vara de Mando" (I don't know it's name in English). On january 1st. the old civil traditional authorities give it to the new authorities as a symbol of the power they have gotten. I need to kow the meaning of the Bastón de Xipe and the Bastón of Venus wich are in the Mixtec Codex. I'll aprecciate all  your coments, and opinions. Thank You. Rita.



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From cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jul 23 00:53:38 2004
From: cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET (Roland Trevino)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:53:38 -0700
Subject: Nahual vs Nahualli
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.175338.0700.CLOUDJAGUAR@EARTHLINK.NET>

 Can these words be used interchangeably?  I have seen them used so and i
wondered if this was correct.  From the dictionaries that i have it seems
that Nahual refers to the animal companion or twin and Nahualli means
"sorcerer or warlock."  I know that Nahual derives from the word Nahualli
but are their meanings really interchangeable or is this incorrect usage.
Also, is the word Nagual completely incorrect or merely a barstardization of
Nahual?

~Roland


From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU  Fri Jul 23 15:02:59 2004
From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:02:59 -0500
Subject: Nahual vs Nahualli
In-Reply-To: <000601c4704f$7f19efb0$17c9b73f@rolandcrmw4dhe>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.100259.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Roland,

Good question and one possibly with an answer.  But, the question, as I
see it, is whether is it Nahualeh or Nahualli, that is "one who possesses
nahual (nahual + eh)" or "a thing that is nahual (nahual + tli)".  I'm
otherwise occupied, but I have pending to consult Lopez Austin _El Cuerpo
Humano_ and Andrews & Hassig, _Treatise of Ruiz de Alarcon_ to straighten
myself out on this and would recommend those sources to you.  best, Mark
Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From n8upb at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jul 23 16:53:27 2004
From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:53:27 -0700
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
In-Reply-To: <s0ffc520.061@hass.usu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.095327.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

In Texas where I am from, the Nahuatl langauge was spoken and I heard "Mecate," as oppose to "Mecuahte," meaning "A Rope," of course a "rope,' does in a way resemble a "Snake."

I am from the Rio Grande Valley of Texas, and I know that some type of Nahuat-l was spoken there, and finally it is no longer a language there...Some of the youth that I remember, *I am 60 years young* Spoke what was "Calo," even that is gone... Time flies as you grow old...

Hasta la proxima.......


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From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Fri Jul 23 19:52:45 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:52:45 -0500
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
In-Reply-To: <20040723165327.3669.qmail@web40811.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.145245.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

mecatl is the word for 'rope' in nahuatl -> Sp. mecate.



On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, DARKHORSE wrote:

> In Texas where I am from, the Nahuatl langauge was spoken and I heard "Mecate," as oppose to "Mecuahte," meaning "A Rope," of course a "rope,' does in a way resemble a "Snake."
>
> I am from the Rio Grande Valley of Texas, and I know that some type of Nahuat-l was spoken there, and finally it is no longer a language there...Some of the youth that I remember, *I am 60 years young* Spoke what was "Calo," even that is gone... Time flies as you grow old...
>
> Hasta la proxima.......
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!

"...and cicadas sing
a rare and different tune..."

R. Hunter


From cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jul 23 20:02:30 2004
From: cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET (Roland Trevino)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:02:30 -0700
Subject: RE    Re: Quetzalcoatl
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.130230.0700.CLOUDJAGUAR@EARTHLINK.NET>

Thank you all for your informative responses re the Quetzalcoatl and
Nahualli question.  This is a fascinating language and this list great.  I
am still unclear as to whether an alternate Meaning for Quetzalcoatl is:
PRECIOUS SERPENT

1) Plumed Serpent
2) Quetzal Serpent
3) Precious Twin

What about:
1) Precious Serpent
2) Quetzal / Plumed Twin ??
3) or others.

~Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Mccafferty" <mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU>
To: <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: Quetzalcoatl


> mecatl is the word for 'rope' in nahuatl -> Sp. mecate.
>
>
>
> On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, DARKHORSE wrote:
>
> > In Texas where I am from, the Nahuatl langauge was spoken and I heard
"Mecate," as oppose to "Mecuahte," meaning "A Rope," of course a "rope,'
does in a way resemble a "Snake."
> >
> > I am from the Rio Grande Valley of Texas, and I know that some type of
Nahuat-l was spoken there, and finally it is no longer a language
there...Some of the youth that I remember, *I am 60 years young* Spoke what
was "Calo," even that is gone... Time flies as you grow old...
> >
> > Hasta la proxima.......
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
>
> "...and cicadas sing
> a rare and different tune..."
>
> R. Hunter
>


From mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX  Fri Jul 23 21:05:45 2004
From: mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX (Mario Marquez)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:05:45 -0500
Subject: About Gary Jenning's Aztec
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f7aeb07c1de343b9aca003953e078.7c1deeb@csumb.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.160545.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

He tenido la oportunidad de leer "Azteca" y "Otoño Azteca" de Gary
Jennings. Sin embargo he tenido oportunidad de leer también "El Viajero"
donde se narra la vida de Marco Polo en las tierras del Kan Kubilai.

Al menos estas obras de Jennings tienen una fuerte carga sobre
sexualidad mostrada de manera abierta, pero las obras no debería
juzgarse solo por esta características. El Escritor ha realizado un
esfuerzo notable en la recreación del mundo Mexica, -justo en el tiempo
de la llegada española- como tambien del periodo colonial - con el libro
de "Otoño Azteca"-

La investigación del escritor está avocada a lugares, idiomas,
costumbres, ritos, politica, sociedad, cultura. Es una obra, ésta de
"Azteca" muy completa y me parece que es recomendable para todo
interesado en la cultura Nahuatl.

Finalmente, solo puedo comentar que es FICCION. Han sido recurrentes
estas opiniones entre amigos que han leído el libro, y estan muy en
desacuerdo sobre la manera en que Gary da personalidad a cada Carácter.
Pero una vez más, es su PROPIA creación y versión.

Saludos,

Mario Marquez


-----Mensaje original-----
De: Nahua language and culture discussion
[mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] En nombre de Archaeology Institute
Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2004 09:24 p.m.
Para: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Asunto: Re: Nahuatl Fiction / ficcion Nahuatl

Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at lists.umn.edu> writes:
>I second Frances' view. I actually read the whole thong as  well as
>several others by Jennings. What most appalled me was Jennings'
>distortion of the puritanical Aztecs to fit his formula writing-- sex
>in all combinations of  numbers, genders, and species-- he does the
>same thing to Marco Polo's China.

Dear Bernard Ortiz de Montellano,

        I think that the reality is that the most "puritanical" of
peoples are also capable of the most perverse acts where sex, morality,
and politics are concerned.  Despite the early "puritanical" bent of the
early colonial Americans, rape, pillage,
plunder, murder, mutilation, and a whole host of less than puritanical
acts and actions were inflicted on Native America, and other Americans
deemed worthy of the same.  My interest in Jennings does not center on
the question of sex, or any
puritanical leanings that any of us might hold dear, but rather with the
ability of Jennings to "create" the Mexica world from the shreds and
patches of so many works that often fall short.

Best Regards,

Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director
Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization
Social and Behavioral Sciences
California State University Monterey Bay
100 Campus Center
Seaside, California 93955-8001

Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu
Voice: 831-582-3760
Fax: 831-582-3566
http://archaeology.csumb.edu
http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/





Confidentiality Notice:  The information contained in this e-mail
message is sender-privileged and confidential information.  It is
intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above.  If
you are not the intended recipient, you are
notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage
or use of this communication is prohibited.  If you received this
communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail,
attaching the original message, and
delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which
your computer is connected.

Thank you.


From n8upb at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jul 24 15:21:14 2004
From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:21:14 -0700
Subject: About Gary Jenning's Aztec
In-Reply-To: <005f01c470f8$d31278e0$6ffea8c0@MARIO>
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUL.2004.082114.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Well to me thsoe books are semi-fictional... Who really knows what really happened in those days of the Aztecan Kingdom, I sure would've loved to be there tho... Who knows maybe I was, I just recycled to another body....


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From chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Jul 24 16:18:18 2004
From: chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM (chelo dona)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:18:18 -0300
Subject: About Gary Jenning's Aztec
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUL.2004.131818.0300.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

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From ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX  Sun Jul 25 02:04:07 2004
From: ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rita=20Monta=FFfffff1o?=)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:04:07 -0500
Subject: About Gary Jenning's Aztec
In-Reply-To: <Sea1-F165ybHLCXdFPJ000134fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUL.2004.210407.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>




¡Hola!

Interesantes comentarios, no sólo sobre "Azteca", sino sobre el hecho de que una cultura retoma aspectos de otra que ya está en decadencia o prácticamente desaparecida y, además algo que cada día es más evidente: todo conocimiento es relativo.

Por otra parte creo que la novela de Jennings está muy bien fundamentada desde el punto de vista de los hechos históricos y toma una perspectiva: la de los conquistados. Pienso que, aunque está  muy bien escrita, sin tanta escena de tipo sexual, no hubiera tenido el mismo éxito. Porque, a fin de cuentas, si quiero aprender historia, estudio historia.

El mundo retratado en Azteca no está del todo perdido, todavía hay muchos pueblos indígenas que comparten la cosmovisión de... no recuerdo su nombre ¿nube...? Saludos. Rita.







chelo dona <chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
De acuerdo conque "Azteca" no es un tratado ni un ensayo, ni una monografía; es una novela.

Que te parecería si un mesopotamico de antes de Cristo hubiese llevado los nombres de los dioses  Ishtar y Marduk a un drama cuasi cotidiano, y le diera un toque nacionalista - pero enfocado en otro pueblo?

Si no lo hubiera hecho, los nombres de Ester y Mardoqueo probablemente no hubieran existido mas alla de esos tiempos, (creo incluso que Mardoqueo es Mordecai). (Biblia - Libro de ester)

Es un pecado que el Ut Napishtim de la historia sumeria hallada en la biblioteca de Ninive se halla bautizado Noe en una recreacion posterior, que Ea haya sido Dios, etc? Es un error que Shakespeare halla creado "sus" personajes italianos con toda la belleza, todos los aciertos... y todas las imprecisiones que vemos en sus obras? Cuánto de lo que consideramos verdadero - y hacemos "oficial" - no surge de imprecisiones, errores, ficciones... que forman parte de lo aceptado por quienes nos educaron? (hey, Galileo...)

Jennings reune y procesa gran cantidad de informacion en sus obras, y es lo bastante serio para elaborarla muy bien, reconstruyendo - coincido - una muy vívida y colorida versión de lo que pudo ser el mundo mexica. Su atrevimiento al retratar escenas sexuales "bizarras" va paralelo con el de rescatar un mundo que fue exterminado porque no entraba en la cabeza de gente como Zumárraga... Yo ya sé más o menos cómo mamá y papá me hicieron. No sé cómo creería Zumárraga que fue concebido, pero apuesto a considerar material comunicable e interesante todo lo que sucede, todo lo que es posible.

I'm sorry; seguire leyendo y recomendando la Biblia, Shakespeare... y Jennings y todo lo que considere interesante.


Saludos,

Marcelo




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From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jul 25 02:40:14 2004
From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 19:40:14 -0700
Subject: Nahual vs Nahualli
In-Reply-To: <000601c4704f$7f19efb0$17c9b73f@rolandcrmw4dhe>
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUL.2004.194014.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Here's something Chimalpahin said about nahuale(s).  (Memorial de Colhuacan, 43v-44v)

ynic tecuannnahualleque quiyauhnahualleque catca oquincuillique, aocmo huel tecuanime mocuepque, ca ye occenca yehuantin yn tecuanahualleque yn quiyauhnahualleque yn chichimeca...

Rafael Tena translates it to mean that the Olmecs lost the capacity to turn into animals and other forces of nature; and that the Chichimecs took that power.  It seems in this case that nahualleque could be sorcercers, in the sense that they have the power to turn into beasts.
-Richard

Roland Trevino <cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
Can these words be used interchangeably? I have seen them used so and i
wondered if this was correct. From the dictionaries that i have it seems
that Nahual refers to the animal companion or twin and Nahualli means
"sorcerer or warlock." I know that Nahual derives from the word Nahualli
but are their meanings really interchangeable or is this incorrect usage.
Also, is the word Nagual completely incorrect or merely a barstardization of
Nahual?

~Roland





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From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU  Sun Jul 25 07:38:42 2004
From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:38:42 -0500
Subject: Nahual vs Nahualli
In-Reply-To: <20040725024014.69930.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUL.2004.023842.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Richard,

That's a really useful citation and I wonder if you could give the full
bibliographic reference because its not coming up through the search
engine.  I also don't find the corresponding passage in Schroeder and
Anderson's Codex Chimalpahin vol. 1-2 so I assume this is a different
Chimalpahin text?  Meanwhile, is "oquincuillique" spelled correctly, or is
it "oquincuililique"?  And fyi, both Sahagun (FC) and Olmos (Tratado de
Hechicerias y Sortilegios) use "nahualli."    best, Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jul 25 15:08:33 2004
From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:08:33 -0700
Subject: Nahual vs Nahualli
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1040725022833.21540A-100000@lear.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUL.2004.080833.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Hi,
The book were the reference to nahualleque is- Tena, Rafael ed. _Las Ocho Relaciones y el Memorial de Colhuacan_,Cien de M�xico (CONACULTA), M�xico, 1998.

There's another reference on p.210(vol.1).

In Tezoz�moc (Le�n, Adri�n, ed. _Cr�nica Mexic�yotl_, UNAM, M�xico, 1998), there�s a reference to nahualli, with a good description of his family and lifestyle, and it clearly refers to a sorcerer or witch (brujo) -p.191-

...auh in yehuatl in Ozomtzin yeuhctli yuh mitohua nahaulli catca moch quin notzaya in tocame in Petlazolcohuatl incohuatl ...

Do you know about the Inquisition process against Martin Ocelotl, who was a nahual?
Gonazalez Obreg�n, Luis, ed. _Procesos de Indios Idolatras y Hechiceros_, Archivo General de la Naci�n, M�xico, 1912.

About the word, oquincuillique, in my text it's spelled that way, not oquincuililique.
-Richard

Richard,

That's a really useful citation and I wonder if you could give the full
bibliographic reference because its not coming up through the search
engine. I also don't find the corresponding passage in Schroeder and
Anderson's Codex Chimalpahin vol. 1-2 so I assume this is a different
Chimalpahin text? Meanwhile, is "oquincuillique" spelled correctly, or is
it "oquincuililique"? And fyi, both Sahagun (FC) and Olmos (Tratado de
Hechicerias y Sortilegios) use "nahualli." best, Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.



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From cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Jul 25 15:50:48 2004
From: cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET (Joanna M. Sanchez)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:50:48 -0400
Subject: Nahual vs Nahualli
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUL.2004.115048.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>



  Do you know about the Inquisition process against Martin Ocelotl, who was a nahual?  
  Gonazalez Obregón, Luis, ed. _Procesos de Indios Idolatras y Hechiceros_, Archivo General de la Nación, México, 1912.

  I found Gruzinski's discussion of Ocelotl and Andres Mixcoatl rather interesting:
   Man-Gods in the Mexican Highlands...  Stanford 1989
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From juan at PAPAQUI.COM  Wed Jul 28 00:04:04 2004
From: juan at PAPAQUI.COM (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ing._Juan_Manuel_Chavar=EDa?=)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:04:04 -0500
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
In-Reply-To: <4100122B.7080206@coatli.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUL.2004.190404.0500.>

        Cuate no es precisamente "gemelo" o "twin"; el termino se utiliza para dos
niños nacidos en el mismo parto, pero no identicos, incluso pueden ser de
distinto sexo.

        Cuate tambien se utiliza para designar a un amigo...

-----Mensaje original-----
De: Nahua language and culture discussion
[mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU]En nombre de robert barkaloff
Enviado el: Jueves, 22 de Julio de 2004 02:15 p.m.
Para: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Asunto: Re: Quetzalcoatl


Just off the top of my head, mecuate come from two root words: "metl-"
and "-coatl," and yes, "coatl" does also mean "twin."  Sometimes snakes
are shown with two heads, such as when they are used as belts in
sculpture -- I beleive this is a further play on the word for "twin" and
"snake."  Surprisingly, the modern meaning for "coatl" has survived and
is in common use in Mexican Spanish as "cuate," but only as "twin,"
while the word for snake has evolved, at least in some regions, to
"coa," as in "macoa" or "acoa" (atl-coatl).

Robert


From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jul 28 04:11:18 2004
From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:11:18 -0400
Subject: imitations of Nahuatl place names
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.001118.0400.>

I have more experience with art history than Nahuatl 
language, and have a question about a European
 imitation of a Nahuatl glyph. I have been working on 
an interpretation of the triptych in the Museo del Prado 
known as The Garden of Earthly Delights/El Jardín de
 las Delicias, and have identified a series of imitations 
of Nahuatl glyphs that appear to place the date of the 
triptych in 1528, and likely no later since once news of 
Cabeza de Vaca's shipwreck got back to Spain, Florida 
would likely not have been represented by a swimming 
pool. (How this relates to old inventories and a 
description by José de Sigüenza is a long story, but the 
dates indicate the triptych is not by Hieronymus Bosch.)
 In the first attached picture, I have matched details from 
the triptych to details from some facsimile drawings of 
the Codex Mendoza.

My question concerns what seems to be an imitation
 of a place name from the Vienna Codex (since it was 
apparently in Europe), shown in the second attached 
picture. It is well known that a painting by Salvador Dalí 
imitates the triptych, but it has not been noted that Dalí 
turned the glyph from the triptych into a glyph for 
Chapultepec, with a cricket. Dalí might have seen the 
Chapultepec glyph anywhere, but I have illustrated an 
example from the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca because 
like the one in the Vienna Codex and the one in the 
triptych, it shows the place as though it were looking 
at someone or something. But what does the right-hand 
part of the picture in the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca 
mean? Does it show the Chichimeca staying at 
Chapultepec? I wonder if I am oversimplifying Dalí’s 
translation, and/or the place name in The Garden of 
Earthly Delights/El Jardín de las Delicias.

I have saved both attachments as small GIF files with 
fewer pixels per inch for e-mail. In case they are 
impossible to read, the contents of the first are some 
details from The Garden of Earthly Delights/El Jardín 
de las Delicias matched with glyphs for 1-acatl to 
10-tecpatl from the Codex Mendoza, and the contents 
of the second are details from the Vienna Codex, the 
Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca, and The Garden of 
Earthly Delights/El Jardín de las Delicias, and 
Salvador Dalí’s El Gran Masturbador (1929). If 
anyone is interested in the question but finds that 
the e-mail attachments are not working, I can send 
paper copies by regular mail. 

Thank you for your attention to this somewhat obscure 
question. I hope the 1-acatl to 10-tecpatl chronology 
is interesting without long explanations but am working 
on a book that will attempt to decode as much of the 
picture as possible. 

Susan Fargo Gilchrist


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From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM  Wed Jul 28 05:19:35 2004
From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:19:35 +0100
Subject: imitations of Nahuatl place names
In-Reply-To: <185260-22004732841118654@M2W070.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.061935.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

--- "sfargo at earthlink.net" <sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
> I have more experience with art history than Nahuatl
> language, and have a question about a European
> imitation of a Nahuatl glyph. I have been working on
> an interpretation of the triptych in the Museo del Prado
> known as The Garden of Earthly Delights/El Jardín de
> las Delicias, ...

Salvador Dali and Hieronymus Bosch painted many strange surrealistic
images. Could the resemblance to Nahuatl glyphs be accidental?


From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jul 28 07:29:14 2004
From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 03:29:14 -0400
Subject: imitations of Nahuatl place names
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.032914.0400.>

If it does include the glyphs it isnÂ’t by Hieronymus Bosch 
since he died in 1516. Interpreting Salvador Dalí’s imitations 
of Bosch pictures (in this case of a Bosch imitation) is 
complicated because Dalí claimed he was following what 
he called the Paranoiac Critical Method, but I think some of 
his observations were acute even when he pretended they 
were paranoid. There are several other Dalí paintings that 
relate to The Garden of Earthly Delights/El Jardín de las 
Delicias and theyÂ’re all interesting for one reason or another. 
My working assumption is that he thought he was illustrating 
something important. I just wonder if he knew more about 
Nahuatl glyphs than I do. 

For the series of ten date signs, it seems as though the 
series is too long to be an accident, even though some
 of them are obscure. ThereÂ’s also a lot of supporting detail 
once itÂ’s assumed that the picture is from 1528. One example 
in Nahuatl is where 7-Calli is represented by a person living 
in a jar like Diogenes, so the jar is a house. The 7 comes 
from seven fingers (difficult to see in the small picture) 
silhouetted against the inside of the jar. Next to it is a bird 
with a human foot underneath, a surrealistic version of 
Cuauhtémoc’s name glyph, and the person who seems to 
be missing some fingers could be Cortés who lost the use 
of two fingers in the Noche Triste. All the dates make some 
kind of sense, for instance where 6-Tecpatl, when the 
Franciscans arrived, is the Garden of Eden.

One of the underlying ideas seems to be that reports from 
the New World sounded like fiction. I think this idea is 
actually illustrated since the two people in the cave in 
the lower right corner of the central panel (not in the 
details I sent), who probably represent Carlos I/Charles 
V and Juana I (dos reyes), can see all the way across 
to the left panel where a lion is eating a deer, which is 
a scene from Amadis, a few paragraphs from the 
beginning, where two kings see a lion eating a deer. 
Part of the reason itÂ’s all so obscure is that the thousands 
of Biblical allusions José de Siguenza saw are in a Jewish 
frame of reference, but itÂ’s also that hieroglyphics 
apparently were seen as obscure. So asking about the 
Nahuatl glyphs is a little like asking Egyptologists what
 they think of the Hypnerotomachia Poliphili, except that 
itÂ’s a little more serious than that, itÂ’s full of real political 
cartoons and also is a pretty good poster for memorizing 
the sequence of events from 1519-1528. But itÂ’s interesting 
to try to piece together what the person might have known. 
Susan Fargo Gilchrist


Original Message:
-----------------
From: ANTHONY APPLEYARD a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:19:35 +0100
To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Subject: Re: imitations of Nahuatl place names


--- "sfargo at earthlink.net" <sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
> I have more experience with art history than Nahuatl
> language, and have a question about a European
> imitation of a Nahuatl glyph. I have been working on
> an interpretation of the triptych in the Museo del Prado
> known as The Garden of Earthly Delights/El Jardín de
> las Delicias, ...

Salvador Dali and Hieronymus Bosch painted many strange surrealistic
images. Could the resemblance to Nahuatl glyphs be accidental?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU  Wed Jul 28 19:50:28 2004
From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:50:28 -0600
Subject: Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.135028.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I will be publishing an English translation of a sixteenth century Aztec history (relatively) soon and I have a major decision to make about the way I present the Nahuatl text. My original intent was to present the Nahuatl text in the two-colum (Nahuatl-English) format with the original spelling and punctuation, so that these features of the original manuscript would be available for study (for such purposes as identifying provenance and related things). Somewhere along the line, I let myself be convinced by a reviewer that regularizing the spelling to a modern orthography would make the text more useful to a broader range of students, and I did that. Now, I'm having second thoughts, particularly since the most recent reviewer has reiterated my original thinking and strongly recommended restoring the original spelling and punctuation. Since this was my original intent, I'd lean towards following that advice, but since Nahuatl research is *not* my primary area of expertise, I'd really like to hear what those of you who work in the area believe to be the better approach: a straight transcription of the original text or a modernized orthography for the Nahuatl column?

Richley Crapo 


From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM  Wed Jul 28 19:57:20 2004
From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:57:20 +0100
Subject: Opinions Solicited
In-Reply-To: <s107af40.064@hass.usu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.205720.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

--- Richley Crapo <RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU> wrote:
> I will be publishing an English translation of a sixteenth century
> Aztec history (relatively) soon and I have a major decision to make
> about the way I present the Nahuatl text. My original intent was to
> present the Nahuatl text in the two-colum (Nahuatl-English) format
> with the original spelling and punctuation, ...

Or have 3 colums: English, original Nahuatl, normalized Nahuatl.


From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jul 28 20:19:53 2004
From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:19:53 -0700
Subject: adjectives & xoxopeualiztli
In-Reply-To: <20040728195720.11930.qmail@web86710.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.131953.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Ueli is an adjective, and it could mean -good or posible.  But I think it could also be read as -be good (to be good)  or be possible (to be possible).  Is this right?  If it is correct, could a "passive" marker, LO, somehow be used with it?  "uelilo" How flexible can certain adjectives be read as "to be" (ie, to be good), as if they had a connection to verbs?

Also, does xoxopeualiztli have a root?  Could it be -xoxo  (to cast a spell), and peua (to begin)?

Thanks,
Rich



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From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jul 28 20:26:55 2004
From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:26:55 -0700
Subject: Opinions Solicited
In-Reply-To: <20040728195720.11930.qmail@web86710.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.132655.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>



I like the idea of the three columns.  If this is not possible for some reason, then I would have the original Nahuatl since it�s an historical text, and perhaps an appendix with some samples of typical texts in the original form, and next to them the normalized Nahuatl version so students can compare and use a reference point.
-Rich




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From Spoole541 at AOL.COM  Wed Jul 28 21:26:31 2004
From: Spoole541 at AOL.COM (Stafford Poole)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:26:31 EDT
Subject: Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.172631.EDT.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Dear Rich:

Together with Louise Burkhart and Barry Sell I am preparing a Nahuatl text
and translation for the U of Oklahoma Press.  Our decision, and this applies to
the other three volumes in the series, is to reproduce the original text as
closely as possible, even down to punctuation.  If you are dealing with an
historic text, this seems the best solution, short of a facsimile or photographic
reproduction.

Good luck

Stafford Poole
Independent scholar


From ECOLING at AOL.COM  Wed Jul 28 21:55:21 2004
From: ECOLING at AOL.COM (Lloyd Anderson)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:55:21 EDT
Subject: Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.175521.EDT.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I'm *not* an active user of such materials,
but if you have a valid transcription of the original,
you might publish that, and have a few footnotes in the most
difficult cases, indicating what the regularized form would be.
Are your users going to be *learning* Nahuatl from this text,
or using it only if they already know Nahuatl fairly well?
In the latter case, they can make the corrections mentally themselves.
You could even have an intro section where you explain all of the
regular, semiregular, and sporadic and irregular differences between
our actual orthography and the corresponding "regularized".
That study would itself be valuable.  Might help to identify
distinct scribes, for example.  Or sections written by scribe
vs. copied from someone else. etc. etc.

Best wishes,
Lloyd Anderson
Ecological Linguistics


From Panoramix at AOL.COM  Wed Jul 28 22:17:45 2004
From: Panoramix at AOL.COM (Panoramix at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:17:45 EDT
Subject: Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.181745.EDT.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

modernized is easier.  the original Nahuatl wasn't written in latin script
anyway.  What you're referring to as the "original spelling" is only what a
particular friar or translater happened to write down at the time, anyway, and, as
you know, much of the spelling at the time wasn't even standardized.
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From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Wed Jul 28 22:53:47 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:53:47 -0400
Subject: adjectives & xoxopeualiztli
In-Reply-To: <20040728201953.67863.qmail@web90008.mail.scd.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.185347.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

on 7/28/04 4:19 PM, rick dosan at rich_photos at YAHOO.COM wrote:

> Ueli is an adjective, and it could mean -good or posible.

Huel(i) is a verb meaning 'to be able to.'

Huel has the sense "possible," and it also serves as an intensifier, meaning
'very.'

Hueliyoh is a derived noun meaning someone or something invested with the
quality of possibility or ability, hence someone or something powerful.


> How flexible can certain adjectives be read as "to be" (ie, to be good), as if
they had a connection to verbs?

There is a preterite-as-present verb cah that can express 'to be' overtly,
but for the most part in Nahuatl 'to be' is unexpressed (as in Russian, by
the way).

As for adjectives, a case can be made that prior to calquing on Spanish
constructions Nahuatl had no distinct class of adjectives.


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From Amapohuani at AOL.COM  Thu Jul 29 01:16:29 2004
From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:16:29 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Opinions=20Solicited?=
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.211629.EDT.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Richley and esteemed listeros:

I offer my very personal opinion in the hope that you will return to your
original intent or, if possible and even better, have a three-column approach.

As some of the fine folks who subscribe to this list already know, Louise
Burkhart and I are working on a four-volume NAHUATL THEATER set (U of Oklahoma
Press, first volume due in a few months). Except for spacing of alphabetical
characters (which is, in my view, debatable in any case) so that others may more
readily understand our translation choices and facilitate the use of
dictionaries and grammars, Louise and I have tried to retain the original spacing,
characters, letter size ('case' seems quite an iffy term to use), varying
spellings, etc., of the original texts.

Why?

Very simply because we aim to provide as much as humanly possible, within the
limits imposed by our own strengths and weaknesses in understanding early
Nahuatl and the pluses and minuses of modern printing and typography, the
specifically and wonderfully NAHUA character of the texs.

Our entire four-volume NAHUATL THEATER set is dedicated to a true visionary
in the study of early Nahuas and Nahuatl, Fernando Horcasitas, whose EL TEATRO
NAHUATL   (1974) continues to be an inspiring example of pioneering
scholarship. Nonetheless, his versions of the seven plays contained in full
transcription in EL TEATRO NAHUATL change sixteenth, seventeenth, eighteenth and
nineteenth century idiosyncratic Nahuatl into radically standaridzed de-Nahuatlized
late twentieth century versions of same. I started my work on volume one by going
to the Library of Congress with a version of one of the plays already copied
out, in digital form and hard copy, from EL TEATRO NAHUATL. I was only halfway
through checking his version against the original and I had made over two
thousand (yes, 2,000) changes. I finally decided it was best to simply make new
transcriptions, then go through the exhaustive process of constantly comparing
and correcting them -- with Louise's invaluable help and advice -- rather than
try to 'fix up' the plays that some seemed considered 'good enough' [to be
honest, this is my feeling but perhaps I am wrong here].

All the 'bothersome' non-standardized features of actual early Nahuatl texts
are really -- IMHO -- clues to the cognitive and emotive landscapes of their
authors, betraying in their almost infinite variety not only a different way of
handling European-style written expresson but also something more than a
negative 'difference' from the original model, namely something positive,
something that was in and of itself a specifically Nahua way of expressing oneself in
early Nahuatl. Just in the area of historical linguistics alone (not a small
consideration among the few people actively working to publish such texts) a
reliably suggestive evocation of the original is justified.

I do not want anyone to take the above to imply a mean-spirited and
contemptuous way of looking at others who do things differently. You yourself suggested
the best of all possible worlds: original Nahuatl (as best as can be done), a
standardized Nahuatl version of the original (again, as best as can be done -
there is no single one 'correct' way to do it so one again has to make
certain choices and not make others), and an English translation.

I wish you the very best in your efforts. I strongly feel that you have been
given good advice, but your gut instincts are right too. Thank you bringing up
this issue on nahuat-l.

Ye ixquich.
Barry D. Sell

In a message dated 7/28/04 12:51:22 PM, RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU writes:


> I will be publishing an English translation of a sixteenth century Aztec
> history (relatively) soon and I have a major decision to make about the way I
> present the Nahuatl text. My original intent was to present the Nahuatl text
> in the two-colum (Nahuatl-English) format with the original spelling and
> punctuation, so that these features of the original manuscript would be available
> for study (for such purposes as identifying provenance and related things).
> Somewhere along the line, I let myself be convinced by a reviewer that
> regularizing the spelling to a modern orthography would make the text more useful to
> a broader range of students, and I did that. Now, I'm having second
> thoughts, particularly since the most recent reviewer has reiterated my original
> thinking and strongly recommended restoring the original spelling and
> punctuation. Since this was my original intent, I'd lean towards following that advice,
> but since Nahuatl research is *not* my primary area of expertise, I'd really
> like to hear what those of you who work in the area believe to be the better
> approach: a straight transcription of the original text or a modernized
> orthography for the Nahuatl column?
>
> Richley Crapo
>

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From juan at PAPAQUI.COM  Thu Jul 29 02:07:39 2004
From: juan at PAPAQUI.COM (=?us-ascii?Q?Ing._Juan_Manuel_Chavaria?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:07:39 -0500
Subject: =?us-ascii?Q?RE:_______Opinions_Solicited?=
In-Reply-To: <c.2f1b3e91.2e39a9ed@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.210739.0500.>


    I think it's better using original spelling and punctuation than a
"regularized" one, because, Which "regularization" are you going to use???
One for english readers? or one for spanish readers? or even one for
norwegian readers?


    I will be publishing an English translation of a sixteenth century Aztec
history (relatively) soon and I have a major decision to make about the way
I present the Nahuatl text. My original intent was to present the Nahuatl
text in the two-colum (Nahuatl-English) format with the original spelling
and punctuation, so that these features of the original manuscript would be
available for study (for such purposes as identifying provenance and related
things). Somewhere along the line, I let myself be convinced by a reviewer
that regularizing the spelling to a modern orthography would make the text
more useful to a broader range of students, and I did that. Now, I'm having
second thoughts, particularly since the most recent reviewer has reiterated
my original thinking and strongly recommended restoring the original
spelling and punctuation. Since this was my original intent, I'd lean
towards following that advice, but since Nahuatl research is *not* my
primary area of expertise, I'd really like to hear what those of you who
work in the area believe to be the better approach: a straight transcription
of the original text or a modernized orthography for the Nahuatl column?

    Richley Crapo



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From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU  Thu Jul 29 02:36:51 2004
From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:36:51 -0600
Subject: Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.203651.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Thanks for the input.
Richley 

>>> rich_photos at YAHOO.COM 07/28/04 14:27 PM >>>


I like the idea of the three columns.  If this is not possible for some reason, then I would have the original Nahuatl since it´s an historical text, and perhaps an appendix with some samples of typical texts in the original form, and next to them the normalized Nahuatl version so students can compare and use a reference point.
-Rich




---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!


From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU  Thu Jul 29 02:39:04 2004
From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:39:04 -0600
Subject: Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.203904.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Thanks for the ideas.
Richley 

>>> ECOLING at AOL.COM 07/28/04 15:56 PM >>>
I'm *not* an active user of such materials,
but if you have a valid transcription of the original,
you might publish that, and have a few footnotes in the most
difficult cases, indicating what the regularized form would be.
Are your users going to be *learning* Nahuatl from this text,
or using it only if they already know Nahuatl fairly well?
In the latter case, they can make the corrections mentally themselves.
You could even have an intro section where you explain all of the
regular, semiregular, and sporadic and irregular differences between
our actual orthography and the corresponding "regularized".
That study would itself be valuable.  Might help to identify
distinct scribes, for example.  Or sections written by scribe
vs. copied from someone else. etc. etc.

Best wishes,
Lloyd Anderson
Ecological Linguistics


From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU  Thu Jul 29 02:39:39 2004
From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:39:39 -0600
Subject: Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.203939.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I appreciate your input.
Richley 

>>> Panoramix at AOL.COM 07/28/04 16:28 PM >>>
modernized is easier.  the original Nahuatl wasn't written in latin script
anyway.  What you're referring to as the "original spelling" is only what a
particular friar or translater happened to write down at the time, anyway, and, as
you know, much of the spelling at the time wasn't even standardized.


From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU  Thu Jul 29 02:47:08 2004
From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:47:08 -0600
Subject: * * * Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.204708.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I appreciate your insights. Since in my original transcription I worked to be true to the spelling and punctuation of the text and the majority here seem also to prefer that, I may revert to it unless my publisher thinks a three-column text is feasible.
Richley 

>>> Amapohuani at AOL.COM 07/28/04 19:17 PM >>>
Richley and esteemed listeros:

I offer my very personal opinion in the hope that you will return to your
original intent or, if possible and even better, have a three-column approach.

As some of the fine folks who subscribe to this list already know, Louise
Burkhart and I are working on a four-volume NAHUATL THEATER set (U of Oklahoma
Press, first volume due in a few months). Except for spacing of alphabetical
characters (which is, in my view, debatable in any case) so that others may more
readily understand our translation choices and facilitate the use of
dictionaries and grammars, Louise and I have tried to retain the original spacing,
characters, letter size ('case' seems quite an iffy term to use), varying
spellings, etc., of the original texts.

Why?

Very simply because we aim to provide as much as humanly possible, within the
limits imposed by our own strengths and weaknesses in understanding early
Nahuatl and the pluses and minuses of modern printing and typography, the
specifically and wonderfully NAHUA character of the texs.

Our entire four-volume NAHUATL THEATER set is dedicated to a true visionary
in the study of early Nahuas and Nahuatl, Fernando Horcasitas, whose EL TEATRO
NAHUATL   (1974) continues to be an inspiring example of pioneering
scholarship. Nonetheless, his versions of the seven plays contained in full
transcription in EL TEATRO NAHUATL change sixteenth, seventeenth, eighteenth and
nineteenth century idiosyncraic Nahuatl into radically standaridzed de-Nahuatlized
late twentieth century versions of same. I started my work on volume one by going
to the Library of Congress with a version of one of the plays already copied
out, in digital form and hard copy, from EL TEATRO NAHUATL. I was only halfway
through checking his version against the original and I had made over two
thousand (yes, 2,000) changes. I finally decided it was best to simply make new
transcriptions, then go through the exhaustive process of constantly comparing
and correcting them -- with Louise's invaluable help and advice -- rather than
try to 'fix up' the plays that some seemed considered 'good enough' [to be
honest, this is my feeling but perhaps I am wrong here].

All the 'bothersome' non-standardized features of actual early Nahuatl texts
are really -- IMHO -- clues to the cognitive and emotive landscapes of their
authors, betraying in their almost infinite variety not only a different way of
handling European-style written expresson but also something more than a
negative 'difference' from the original model, namely something positive,
something that was in and of itself a specifically Nahua way of expressing oneself in
early Nahuatl. Just in the area of historical linguistics alone (not a small
consideration among the few people actively working to publish such texts) a
reliably suggestive evocation of the original is justified.

I do not want anyone to take the above to imply a mean-spirited and
contemptuous way of looking at others who do things differently. You yourself suggested
the best of all possible worlds: original Nahuatl (as best as can be done), a
standardized Nahuatl version of the original (again, as best as can be done -
there is no single one 'correct' way to do it so one again has to make
certain choices and not make others), and an English translation.

I wish you the very best in your efforts. I strongly feel that you have been
given good advice, but your gut instincts are right too. Thank you brnging up
this issue on nahuat-l.

Ye ixquich.
Barry D. Sell

In a message dated 7/28/04 12:51:22 PM, RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU writes:


> I will be publishing an English translation of a sixteenth century Aztec
> history (relatively) soon and I have a major decision to make about the way I
> present the Nahuatl text. My original intent was to present the Nahuatl text
> in the two-colum (Nahuatl-English) format with the original spelling and
> punctuation, so that these features of the original manuscript would be available
> for study (for such purposes as identifying provenance and related things).
> Somewhere along the line, I let myself be convinced by a reviewer that
> regularizing the spelling to a modern orthography would make the text more useful to
> a broader range of students, and I did that. Now, I'm having second
> thoughts, particularly since the most recent reviewer has reiterated my original
> thinking and strongly recommended restoring the original spelling and
> punctuation. Since this was my original intent, I'd lean towards following that advice,
> but since Nahuatl research is *not* my primary area of expertise, I'd really
> like to hear what those of you who work in the area believe to be the better
> approach: a straight transcription of the original text or a modernized
> orthography for the Nahuatl column?
>
> Richley Crapo
>


From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU  Thu Jul 29 02:51:18 2004
From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:51:18 -0600
Subject: Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.205118.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Thanks. Others have suggested that, and I'll certainly consider it.
Richley 

>>> a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM 07/28/04 13:57 PM >>>
--- Richley Crapo <RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU> wrote:
> I will be publishing an English translation of a sixteenth century
> Aztec history (relatively) soon and I have a major decision to make
> about the way I present the Nahuatl text. My original intent was to
> present the Nahuatl text in the two-colum (Nahuatl-English) format
> with the original spelling and punctuation, ...

Or have 3 colums: English, original Nahuatl, normalized Nahuatl.


From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU  Thu Jul 29 03:15:26 2004
From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:15:26 -0500
Subject: Opinions Solicited
In-Reply-To: <s10811d5.050@hass.usu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.221526.0500.MDMORRIS@INDIANA.EDU>

I, on the other hand, do not see the cause to publish a "near original"
transcription.  The transcription itself is a significant step away from
the original and a certain degree of analysis would be merited with it,
such as proper word separation and extension of abbreviations.  There is
something special about first-hand exposure to a text, but this is only
conveyed by the original or a facsimile; a transcription can't capture all
of the nuances.  Thank you very much Fran Kartunnen for glossing hueliyoh
etc. As for the other, my assumption is that xoxopehualiztli refers to
spring.

best,
Mark Morris

















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From alfredina2001 at YAHOO.COM.MX  Thu Jul 29 03:12:34 2004
From: alfredina2001 at YAHOO.COM.MX (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alfredina=20Morales?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:12:34 -0500
Subject: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <1089910386.40f6b6720c32c@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.221234.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
La mejor conexión a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes. http://net.yahoo.com.mx


From swood at DARKWING.UOREGON.EDU  Thu Jul 29 04:29:52 2004
From: swood at DARKWING.UOREGON.EDU (Stephanie Wood)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:29:52 -0700
Subject: Opinions Solicited
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1040728220745.27674A-100000@lear.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.212952.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

In a Nahuatl-language manuscript I am trying to transcribe and
translate, I have been toying with producing three transcriptions: a
literal transcription (preserving capitalization, word divisions,
punctuation, and original orthography for the sake of historical
linguistics), an analytic one (with more logical word separation and
lines numbered for referencing in notes), and a standardized one that
would have an alternative orthography that might help with electronic
searches (providing, for example, cihuatl, where the original might
have had civatl or the like).  Maybe this is overkill, but I can
envision some value in each type.

When I recently presented examples of these transcriptions at a
conference of humanities computing people, one person suggested
another alternative: lemmatizing the transcription and using the Text
Encoding Initiative to mark it up, with an eye to the future, when
more and more of what we write and read will be electronic.  Just
curious: is anyone on this list thinking along those lines?  Stephanie
Wood


From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU  Thu Jul 29 13:27:59 2004
From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:27:59 -0400
Subject: Opinions Solicited
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1040728220745.27674A-100000@lear.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUL.2004.092759.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

But Mark, a paleographic transcription (revealing to the extent
possible the nature of the original document) is also valuable because
it makes it easier to identify possible mistakes in the regularized
transcription and the translation. the point is that the regularized
transcription is often a result of some interpretation. and often there
are other possible interpretations. we have recently had discussions
about this very thing on the list. and remember those documents we
worked on at Indiana with Joe, we had long discussions/arguments about
the meaning of words or phrases precisely because there were different
possible interpretations of the orthography and even spacing (i.e. in
dios versus indios). so, i think Barry, Stafford, and Louise{s method
is the best both for the sake of historical linguistics and in order to
leave open the possibility for others to disagree with your
orthographic/semantic interpretations.
Galen


Quoting Mark David Morris <mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU>:

> I, on the other hand, do not see the cause to publish a "near
> original"
> transcription.  The transcription itself is a significant step away
> from
> the original and a certain degree of analysis would be merited with
> it,
> such as proper word separation and extension of abbreviations.  There
> is
> something special about first-hand exposure to a text, but this is
> only
> conveyed by the original or a facsimile; a transcription can't
> capture all
> of the nuances.  Thank you very much Fran Kartunnen for glossing
> hueliyoh
> etc. As for the other, my assumption is that xoxopehualiztli refers
> to
> spring.
>
> best,
> Mark Morris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~
>
> La muerte tiene permiso a todo
>
> MDM, PhD Candidate
> Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
>
>


From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU  Thu Jul 29 14:52:58 2004
From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:52:58 -0600
Subject: Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUL.2004.085258.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I appreciate that. I do have one question--about the limitations that this necessarily involves: Why would this be considered as something better to do than to simply publish a photographic copy of the original?
Richley 

>>> Spoole541 at AOL.COM 07/28/04 15:27 PM >>>
Dear Rich:

Together with Louise Burkhart and Barry Sell I am preparing a Nahuatl text
and translation for the U of Oklahoma Press.  Our decision, and this applies to
the other three volumes in the series, is to reproduce the original text as
closely as possible, even down to punctuation.  If you are dealing with an
historic text, this seems the best solution, short of a facsimile or photographic
reproduction.

Good luck

Stafford Poole
Independent scholar


From Amapohuani at AOL.COM  Thu Jul 29 23:49:00 2004
From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:49:00 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Opinions=20Solicite?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?d?=
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUL.2004.194900.EDT.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Galen and Mark:

I think Galen has made some good points. To give one instance out of many why 
retaining original distinctive features is critical: in volume one of NAHUATL 
THEATER I was faced with the difficulty of showing why I felt that THE THREE 
KINGS was in a different hand than SOULS AND TESTAMENTARY EXECUTORS and THE 
SACRIFICE OF ISAAC. In other words, why even though the three are bound together 
as mone manuscript at U of Michigan's Clements Library, they should not 
automatically be lumped together. After all, trying to compare and contrast hands 
is a very debatable process. Once a reliable transcription of the three plays 
was made (essentially Louise and I running through the text and transcriptions 
space by space, character by charcter a full three or four times) something 
became very obvious: there were orthographic peculiarities (or however either of 
you might want to characterize them) that were found only in SOULS and 
SACRIFICE but not in 3KINGS, and vice versa. These key distinctions would have been 
lost in a regularized/standardized version. Hence the value of trying as much 
as is possible to show those distinctions, peculiarities and 'errors' (under 
all the human and technical limitations we could enumerate) is, to my way of 
working and thinking, valuable and at times critical. Plus it helps (doesn't 
completely solve by any means) to show where one is taking one interpretative 
road and not another. 

Nonetheless I am very grateful for those scholars who take the Nahuatl much 
further away from the originals. Ideally one would have the opportunity to do 
what Andrews did in the Ruiz de Alarcon book, showing both the original 
orthography and his version. Of course, here again interpretation, reinterpretation, 
and errors in same are always lurking in the shadows. But there are so many 
practical restraints also that go far beyond scholarly considerations. Oh how I 
wish that the publisher of NAHUATL THEATER would suggest putting out an 
additional volume with clear photoreproductions of all the dramatic texts! I 
wouldn't hold my breath waiting, though.....

You both have made good points, so my hat is off to you both. 

Ye ixquich.
Barry

In a message dated 7/29/04 6:28:51 AM, brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU writes:


> But Mark, a paleographic transcription (revealing to the extent
> possible the nature of the original document) is also valuable because
> it makes it easier to identify possible mistakes in the regularized
> transcription and the translation. the point is that the regularized
> transcription is often a result of some interpretation. and often there
> are other possible interpretations. we have recently had discussions
> about this very thing on the list. and remember those documents we
> worked on at Indiana with Joe, we had long discussions/arguments about
> the meaning of words or phrases precisely because there were different
> possible interpretations of the orthography and even spacing (i.e. in
> dios versus indios). so, i think Barry, Stafford, and Louise{s method
> is the best both for the sake of historical linguistics and in order to
> leave open the possibility for others to disagree with your
> orthographic/semantic interpretations.
> Galen
> 
> 
> Quoting Mark David Morris <mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU>:
> 
> > I, on the other hand, do not see the cause to publish a "near
> > original"
> > transcription.  The transcription itself is a significant step away
> > from
> > the original and a certain degree of analysis would be merited with
> > it,
> > such as proper word separation and extension of abbreviations.  There
> > is
> > something special about first-hand exposure to a text, but this is
> > only
> > conveyed by the original or a facsimile; a transcription can't
> > capture all
> > of the nuances.  Thank you very much Fran Kartunnen for glossing
> > hueliyoh
> > etc. As for the other, my assumption is that xoxopehualiztli refers
> > to
> > spring.
> >
> > best,
> > Mark Morris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~
> >
> > La muerte tiene permiso a todo
> >
> > MDM, PhD Candidate
> > Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
> >
> >
> 
> 

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From carlossn at UI.BOE.ES  Thu Jul  1 13:58:31 2004
From: carlossn at UI.BOE.ES (Carlos Santamarina)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:58:31 +0200
Subject: nahuatl translation
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUL.2004.155831.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

  Can anybody help me?
I'm trying to traduce a sentence from the Anales de Cuauhtitlan.
Here is, with de translation of Primo Feliciano Vel?zquez (UNAM, 1992):

auh in oacic niman Mizoc, ipan iniyacapepech oncan yoltlacatl macehualli
"Al llegar, se sangr? en su cama de pajas, de donde tuvo vida una
persona plebeya"

I have problems with yacapepech (no 'zacapepech'), perhaps from yacatl
(nose or tip?) and pepechtli (bed or so)...

    Thank you very much.
Carlos Santamarina <carlossn at diploma.com> carlossn at ui.boe.es

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From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Thu Jul  1 20:42:00 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:42:00 -0500
Subject: tlahueliloc
In-Reply-To: <20040630193027.14310.qmail@web90008.mail.scd.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.1.JUL.2004.154200.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Rick,

There is no evidence for any relationship between ahhuel /a?wel/ and
tlahue:l- /tlawe:l-/. Note for example the lack of a glottal stop in
tlahue:l- (i.e., it's not */tlahwe:l-/ but /tlawe:l/. Hence there is no term
for "not" (i.e., ah- ) in tlahue:l-. And, as I mentioned yesterday or the
day before, the vowel length is a cause for suspicion in assuming some sort
of identicality between these terms, i.e., -hue:l- cannot be -huel-.

I don't know if it's any help, but maybe it would be useful to think of,
say, "sun" and "son" in English. Now, the analogy is not perfect, since in
fact the two English terms are identical in pronunciation (no messy vowel
length or glottal stop discrepancies to worry about), but are not related
otherwise. They're just homophonous. In the evolution of a language,
sometimes items fall together, or nearly so, haphazardly. In Potawatomi in
the 1800s the third-person singular conjunct verb ending came to resemble a
common locative suffix ending (something like but not exactly like Nahuatl
postpositions). This sort of phenomenon can cause brief moments of
unintelligiblity.

Best,

Michael


Quoting rick dosan <rich_photos at YAHOO.COM>:

>  So, my understanding so far is that tlahueliloc is not from ahuelia, but
> from tlahuel.  And that the meaning of tlahuel is related to Hate or
> "irrascible ".  And ahhuel would have more to do with Impossible, or Bad.
> And I take it that tlahueliloc is related to tlahuel because the phonetics
of
> Tlahueliloc would have no saltillo in the first syllable and a long vowel
in
> the second.  If this is so, could it still be possible that tlahueliloc
> sometime back originally came from ahhuel (bad)?  The reason I'm thining
> this, is that in Molina it's defined as Malvado...  Thanks for all the
> feedback.
> Rich
>
> mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU wrote:
> Rick,
>
> This is tlahue:l- as in the verb tlahue:lia 'to hate', 'to despise'.
>
> tlahue:liloc literally means 'he/she/it has been hated'.
>
> tlahue:li-lo-c 'despise' + non-active ("passive") marker + past tense
marker
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
> Quoting rick dosan :
>
> > Does anyone have an idea about the root of the word tlahueliloc? Any
> > interesting texts in which it appears?
> >
> > Do any of these seem right?
> >
> >
> > Ueli -- Poder
> >
> > Ueli ?lo Se Puede
> >
> > Ueli-lo-c Posible
> > A-ueli-lo-c Imposible
> >
> > Tl(a)-a-ueli.lo.c Quien no es posible/ quien es imposible
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Tlauelia- Estar irritado
> >
> > Tlaueli(a)-lo Se est? irritado
> > Tlaueli(a)-lo-c Uno que est? irritado
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Uelia (Bueno)
> >
> > A-Uelia (malo)
> > Tlaueliloc (Un malvado)
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Richard Dorfsman
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.


From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Fri Jul  2 17:42:31 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:42:31 -0500
Subject: nahuatl translation
In-Reply-To: <40E41887.6070904@ui.boe.es>
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUL.2004.124231.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Quoting Carlos Santamarina <carlossn at UI.BOE.ES>:

>   Can anybody help me?
> I'm trying to traduce a sentence from the Anales de Cuauhtitlan.
> Here is, with de translation of Primo Feliciano Vel?zquez (UNAM, 1992):
>
> auh in oacic niman Mizoc, ipan iniyacapepech oncan yoltlacatl macehualli
> "Al llegar, se sangr? en su cama de pajas, de donde tuvo vida una
> persona plebeya"
>
Unfortunately my Spanish is a million light years behind my Nahuatl, so I
don't know what "pajas" means in "cama de pajas". However, fortunately (for
me), you have provided the Nahuatl. :-)

Your "iniyacapepech" is "in iyacapepech," actually two words written as one:

"in" is "in, and

iyacapepech is

|i:-| 'his/her'
|yaca-| 'nose' but also 'angle' and 'point'
|-pe(:)(h)-| reduplication on
|-pech| 'flat on the surface' <- pechoa 'to make something flat' and pechahui
        'to become flat' -> tlapechtli 'bed', i.e, 'something flat'

In English? "his/her angled bed, pointed bed" (?) I don't know. I've never
seen a yacapepechtli. :-)

The reduplication of the -pech implies an extensive flat area or "very flat".
The text, of course, does not indicate whether the vowel is short or long or
if a glottal stop follows the vowel in the reduplication.


is for me, at least, challenging in that after removing the possessive
singular third person prefex i- meaning 'his/her', and the final stem, -pech,
with the reduplicated pe(:)(h)-, which is the "cama" part, what's left is
not "yaca(tl)" meaning "nose, point, angle" but rather "niyaca-". I don't know
what a "niyaca-" is. -pech is from the verb pechahui 'to become flat' and
pechoa 'to make something flat'. The reduplicated prefix on -pech signifies
probably "very"..."very flat," "extensively flat".

> I have problems with yacapepech (no 'zacapepech'), perhaps from yacatl
> (nose or tip?) and pepechtli (bed or so)...
>
>
Saludos,
Michael




    Thank you very much.
> Carlos Santamarina <carlossn at diploma.com> carlossn at ui.boe.es
>
>


From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU  Fri Jul  2 19:42:51 2004
From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:42:51 -0400
Subject: nahuatl translation
Message-ID: <FRI.2.JUL.2004.154251.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

My first guess is that this a scribal error or a typo, and that the
original is actually "zacapepechtli" rather than "yacapepechtli." The
translator gives the meaning as "cama de pajas", so it would seem that
he is reading it as if it were "zaca" [straw] rather than "yaca" [nose].
The Florentine does have attestations of both "zacapechtli" and with the
reduplication "zacapepechtli" meaning straw bed.
Have you checked either the original or other editions of the Anales to
see if they have this word spelled the same way? I would suspect that
you will find it spelled "zacapepechtli" in the original and most other
editions.
Galen


Carlos Santamarina wrote:
>   Can anybody help me?
> I?m trying to traduce a sentence from the Anales de Cuauhtitlan.
> Here is, with de translation of Primo Feliciano Vel?zquez (UNAM, 1992):
>
> auh in oacic niman Mizoc, ipan iniyacapepech oncan yoltlacatl macehualli
> ?Al llegar, se sangr? en su cama de pajas, de donde tuvo vida una
> persona plebeya?
>
> I have problems with yacapepech (no 'zacapepech'), perhaps from yacatl
> (nose or tip?) and pepechtli (bed or so)...
>
>     Thank you very much.
> Carlos Santamarina <carlossn at diploma.com> carlossn at ui.boe.es
>


From malinal at EVHR.NET  Sat Jul  3 08:09:01 2004
From: malinal at EVHR.NET (Alexis Wimmer)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:09:01 +0200
Subject: nahuatl translation
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUL.2004.100901.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

  "iniyacapepech" is perhaps writen for "in i:-a:ca-pehpech", his reed mat.

  "iya-" appears oftens for "?-a" or for "?-?".

  In the version of  Walter Lehman 1938,293 you will find it spelled

  "niman m??oc ypan iyacap?pech" da stach er sich (blutig) auf seinem
Rohrlager.



  Alexis







  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Galen Brokaw" <brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU>
  To: <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
  Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 9:42 PM
  Subject: Re: nahuatl translation


  > My first guess is that this a scribal error or a typo, and that the
  > original is actually "zacapepechtli" rather than "yacapepechtli." The
  > translator gives the meaning as "cama de pajas", so it would seem that
  > he is reading it as if it were "zaca" [straw] rather than "yaca" [nose].
  > The Florentine does have attestations of both "zacapechtli" and with the
  > reduplication "zacapepechtli" meaning straw bed.
  > Have you checked either the original or other editions of the Anales to
  > see if they have this word spelled the same way? I would suspect that
  > you will find it spelled "zacapepechtli" in the original and most other
  > editions.
  > Galen
  >
  >
  > Carlos Santamarina wrote:
  > >   Can anybody help me?
  > > I?m trying to traduce a sentence from the Anales de Cuauhtitlan.
  > > Here is, with de translation of Primo Feliciano Vel?zquez (UNAM,
1992):
  > >
  > > auh in oacic niman Mizoc, ipan iniyacapepech oncan yoltlacatl
macehualli
  > > ?Al llegar, se sangr? en su cama de pajas, de donde tuvo vida una
  > > persona plebeya?
  > >
  > > I have problems with yacapepech (no 'zacapepech'), perhaps from yacatl
  > > (nose or tip?) and pepechtli (bed or so)...
  > >
  > >     Thank you very much.
  > > Carlos Santamarina <carlossn at diploma.com> carlossn at ui.boe.es
  > >
  >


From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jul  3 16:42:29 2004
From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:42:29 -0700
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <000c01c460d5$0065ab20$b7a5a9d5@duron1800>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUL.2004.094229.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I was wondering if there is any difference between ineua and inehua (with h).  And if it's in Karttunen's Dictionary, where is it? because I didn?t find it.  Is its root eua? And what is the sense that connects its two meanings "dar un mal golpe" (miss a blow) and "estar pose?do por el demonio" (Be possessed by the devil).

I have a different kind of question, too.
Some of the questions I ask are related to my masters thesis.  And I wanted to know what is the normal practice for citing (quoting-  " ") here on the list.  Can we freely cite what is said?  Should we ask permission each time we want to cite something?  If we want to ask permission, should we ask it publicly, or directly to the person who we want to cite?

Thank you.
Richard


---------------------------------
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From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jul  3 18:03:56 2004
From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:03:56 -0400
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <20040703164229.81826.qmail@web90003.mail.scd.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUL.2004.140356.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Hi, Richard:

This is my first post on the list.  I'm still very much the newbie,
but I'm going to
give this a shot.

> I was wondering if there is any difference between ineua and inehua (with h).

The only different here is orthographical.  Firstly, this is probably
in + ehua.  On
the topic of the labial glide /w/, it is common in older spanish
orthographics to
use all sorts of conventions because Spanish had no "w" letter.  You may see
eoa, eua, or ehua -- but they are all for the same pronunciation.

> And if it's in Karttunen's Dictionary, where is it? because I didn't find it.  Is its
> root eua?

Karttunen's Dictionary has e:hua, with the meaning, "to rise, get up from bed"
and an alternate "to rise and go."

Generally, the "in" part of the phrase is translated as "the" or sometimes not
translated at all, according to the same dictionary.  I believe its a sort of
reference marker indicating that an action refers to or somehow makes use of
the object.

Unfortunately, being much the newb, I don't have an answer for your latter
question.


-Geoff


From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Sat Jul  3 20:05:18 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:05:18 -0400
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <99045682040703110336bcc88c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUL.2004.160518.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Concerning "inehu(a)":

> Generally, the "in" part of the phrase is translated as "the" or sometimes not
> translated at all, according to the same dictionary.  I believe its a sort of
> reference marker indicating that an action refers to or somehow makes use of
> the object.
> 
But in this case the "in" is part of the verb stem.  Have a look at Molina's
entry.  He devices the first-person present tense into "ineua.niqu," and he
gives the first-person preterite as "oniquineuh."

That is: o:- (antecessive prefix) ni- (first-person singular subject prefix)
qu- (third-person singular object prefix) ineuh (preterite stem.

> And if it's in Karttunen's Dictionary, where is it? because I didn't find it.

It's not in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl because it's not attested in
sources that indicate long vowels and glottal stops. There's no way to tell
if it's ihnehu(a) or i:nehu(a) or ine:hu(a), etc.

> Is its root eua?

Not likely. It doesn't at all appear that the "in" can be detached from the
stem.

> And what is the sense that connects its two meanings "dar un mal golpe"
> (miss a blow) and "estar pose?do por el demonio" (Be possessed by the devil).

What is the source of the second gloss?


From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM  Sat Jul  3 21:10:07 2004
From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:10:07 +0100
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <BD0C89BD.2DFF%karttu@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUL.2004.221007.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

--- Frances Karttunen <karttu at NANTUCKET.NET> wrote:
> Concerning "inehu(a)":

Someone wrote:-
> And if it's in Karttunen's Dictionary, where is it? because I
> didn't find it.

  Frances Karttunen wrote:-
> It's not in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl because it's not
> attested in sources that indicate long vowels and glottal stops.
> There's no way to tell if it's ihnehu(a) or i:nehu(a) or ine:hu(a),
> etc.

Can the word be identified in modern spoken Nahuatl and its vowel
lengths and glottal stops thus found?


From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM  Sat Jul  3 21:51:08 2004
From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:51:08 -0400
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <BD0C89BD.2DFF%karttu@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUL.2004.175108.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:05:18 -0400, Frances Karttunen
<karttu at nantucket.net> wrote:
> Concerning "inehu(a)":
>

Woah. There are famous people on this list. :D  Greetings from South Florida!

>
> But in this case the "in" is part of the verb stem.  Have a look at Molina's
> entry.  He devices the first-person present tense into "ineua.niqu," and he
> gives the first-person preterite as "oniquineuh."
>
> That is: o:- (antecessive prefix) ni- (first-person singular subject prefix)
> qu- (third-person singular object prefix) ineuh (preterite stem.
>

My mistake.  I don't have a copy of this book, yet, as amazon.com has
nothing of Alonso de Molina -- all are marked out of print.

> It's not in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl because it's not attested in
> sources that indicate long vowels and glottal stops. There's no way to tell
> if it's ihnehu(a) or i:nehu(a) or ine:hu(a), etc.

That's another interesting point I hadn't realized.  I had assumed, incorrectly,
that all common sources were covered in the Dictionary because of the frequent
dissertations on one attestation versus another (and it probably has to do with
my having skipped through the introduction, too).

-Geoff


From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU  Sun Jul  4 00:47:41 2004
From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 20:47:41 -0400
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <20040703164229.81826.qmail@web90003.mail.scd.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.3.JUL.2004.204741.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Richard,
Your second question is a very good one, and I would like to give you my
opinion. I'm sending this to the list because we all have an investment
in this issue, and I'd be interested to hear what others might have to
say on this matter.
First, I think that if you err on this issue, you should err on the side
of caution and professional courtesy.
How you deal with this may depend on the nature of the information that
you want to cite. But it is important to keep in mind that an email
discussion list like Nahuat-l is a very informal venue. In general, when
you draw from other people's ideas that are expressed in such a venue, I
think it is a good policy to be generous and positive. What I mean by
that is that you should not attack or criticize ideas that you may
disagree with. That is to say, that you should only use things that are
helpful to you in a positive way and ignore ideas or arguments with
which you may disagree. I'm not saying this because I don't like good
natured debate. Sometimes in published articles you see people develop a
critique in a kind of negative dialogue with someone else's work. Even
when you take this approach with published sources, you need to be very
careful, because in some cases I think that it merely masks the fact
that the critic doesn't have an argument of his or her own. And you also
run the risk of falling into a strawman argument. But sometimes the
issue is such that this approach is useful and perhaps even necessary.
Email discussions, however, are much more informal than published
articles. The whole point is to have a dialogue in which ideas can be
bounced around and discussed in an open way. So, at least for me, I
wouldn't necessarily want anybody to hold me to something that I wrote
on this list. I often put stuff out there in an explicitly hypothetical
way, because that kind of thing can be very productive in the kind of
dialogue that often goes on here. So, I think it would be kind of unfair
to write up and publish--whether that be an article, a Masters thesis,
or whatever--a critique of an argument or idea presented on an email
list unless the person who sent out the message consents.
For the same reason, even when you want to use a specific idea or
argument that appeared on the list with which you agree, I think it is
always a good policy to ask the person about it. This will help you
avoid misrepresentation. Let's say, for example, that you agree with
someone's argument or position on something discussed on the list, but
the person who originally articulated that argument no longer agrees
with it. In such a case, you should probably still give credit to the
person in a more general way that does not misrepresent that person's
current position on the matter. In such a case, a footnoted explanation
might be useful.
And I do think this kind of request should be made directly to the
person rather than publicly on the list.
Maybe this is more detail than you were looking for, but I think this
kind of thing is important, especially since I have probably said a lot
of really dumb things on this list :-). Good luck with your thesis.
Galen



rick dosan wrote:

> I was wondering if there is any difference between ineua and inehua
> (with h).  And if it's in Karttunen's Dictionary, where is it? because
> I didn?t find it.  Is its root eua? And what is the sense that
> connects its two meanings "dar un mal golpe" (miss a blow) and "estar
> pose?do por el demonio" (Be possessed by the devil).
>
> I have a different kind of question, too.
> Some of the questions I ask are related to my masters thesis.  And I
> wanted to know what is the normal practice for citing (quoting-  " ")
> here on the list.  Can we freely cite what is said?  Should we ask
> permission each time we want to cite something?  If we want to ask
> permission, should we ask it publicly, or directly to the person who
> we want to cite?
>
> Thank you.
> Richard
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you!
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/mobile/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo>
> Get it on your mobile phone.

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From joostkremers at FASTMAIL.FM  Sun Jul  4 12:31:07 2004
From: joostkremers at FASTMAIL.FM (Joost Kremers)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 05:31:07 -0700
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <9904568204070314515ff7e1c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUL.2004.053107.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:51:08 -0400, "Geoff Davis" <mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM>
said:
> My mistake.  I don't have a copy of this book, yet, as amazon.com has
> nothing of Alonso de Molina -- all are marked out of print.

try going to <http://www.porrua.com> and do a 'busqueda avanzada' for
'molina' in the author field and 'vocabulario' in the title field. that
should give you two titles. i have no idea what the difference is
between the two, but at least the second one should still be available.
(and don't be alarmed by the $250.00. those are mexican pesos. the
bottom price is USD.)

HTH

--
Joost Kremers
--
  Joost Kremers
  joostkremers at fastmail.fm


From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Sun Jul  4 13:02:46 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 08:02:46 -0500
Subject: nahuatl translation
In-Reply-To: <000c01c460d5$0065ab20$b7a5a9d5@duron1800>
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUL.2004.080246.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Cool. Both Galen's and Alexis's interpretations hold water.

Michael


On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Alexis Wimmer wrote:

>   "iniyacapepech" is perhaps writen for "in i:-a:ca-pehpech", his reed mat.
> 
>   "iya-" appears oftens for "?-a" or for "?-?".
> 
>   In the version of  Walter Lehman 1938,293 you will find it spelled
> 
>   "niman m??oc ypan iyacap?pech" da stach er sich (blutig) auf seinem
> Rohrlager.
> 
> 
> 
>   Alexis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: "Galen Brokaw" <brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU>
>   To: <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
>   Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 9:42 PM
>   Subject: Re: nahuatl translation
> 
> 
>   > My first guess is that this a scribal error or a typo, and that the
>   > original is actually "zacapepechtli" rather than "yacapepechtli." The
>   > translator gives the meaning as "cama de pajas", so it would seem that
>   > he is reading it as if it were "zaca" [straw] rather than "yaca" [nose].
>   > The Florentine does have attestations of both "zacapechtli" and with the
>   > reduplication "zacapepechtli" meaning straw bed.
>   > Have you checked either the original or other editions of the Anales to
>   > see if they have this word spelled the same way? I would suspect that
>   > you will find it spelled "zacapepechtli" in the original and most other
>   > editions.
>   > Galen
>   >
>   >
>   > Carlos Santamarina wrote:
>   > >   Can anybody help me?
>   > > I?m trying to traduce a sentence from the Anales de Cuauhtitlan.
>   > > Here is, with de translation of Primo Feliciano Vel?zquez (UNAM,
> 1992):
>   > >
>   > > auh in oacic niman Mizoc, ipan iniyacapepech oncan yoltlacatl
> macehualli
>   > > ?Al llegar, se sangr? en su cama de pajas, de donde tuvo vida una
>   > > persona plebeya?
>   > >
>   > > I have problems with yacapepech (no 'zacapepech'), perhaps from yacatl
>   > > (nose or tip?) and pepechtli (bed or so)...
>   > >
>   > >     Thank you very much.
>   > > Carlos Santamarina <carlossn at diploma.com> carlossn at ui.boe.es
>   > >
>   >
> 
> 
> 

"...and cicadas sing
a rare and different tune..."

R. Hunter


From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Sun Jul  4 14:15:13 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 09:15:13 -0500
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <99045682040703110336bcc88c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUL.2004.091513.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Geoff Davis wrote:
>
> Generally, the "in" part of the phrase is translated as "the" or sometimes not
> translated at all, according to the same dictionary.  I believe its a sort of
> reference marker indicating that an action refers to or somehow makes use of
> the object.

One of its primary but often overlooked uses in Nahuatl of "in" is to
signal the appearance of a subordinate clause, e.g.,

In pochtecatl in cacnamacani.  'He is a trader who sells shoes".


Michael


From idiez at MAC.COM  Mon Jul  5 02:47:08 2004
From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 21:47:08 -0500
Subject: Molina out of print
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUL.2004.214708.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

The Molina dictionary is definitely out of print. You can't order it 
from Porr?a, and it's not available at the Gandhi or S?tano in Mexico 
City. If you want a copy, you need to hunt around at individual 
bookstores.
John

John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas
Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
Director
Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C.
Tacuba 152, int. 47
Centro Hist?rico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
M?xico
Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985
idiez at mac.com
www.idiez.org.mx

From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jul  5 04:31:58 2004
From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 21:31:58 -0700
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <BD0C89BD.2DFF%karttu@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.4.JUL.2004.213158.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

In answer to the comment of where can ineua be found to mean "estar poseido por el demonio"; I found it in Sim?on.

Frances Karttunen <karttu at NANTUCKET.NET> wrote:Concerning "inehu(a)":

> Generally, the "in" part of the phrase is translated as "the" or sometimes not
> translated at all, according to the same dictionary. I believe its a sort of
> reference marker indicating that an action refers to or somehow makes use of
> the object.
>
But in this case the "in" is part of the verb stem. Have a look at Molina's
entry. He devices the first-person present tense into "ineua.niqu," and he
gives the first-person preterite as "oniquineuh."

That is: o:- (antecessive prefix) ni- (first-person singular subject prefix)
qu- (third-person singular object prefix) ineuh (preterite stem.

> And if it's in Karttunen's Dictionary, where is it? because I didn't find it.

It's not in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl because it's not attested in
sources that indicate long vowels and glottal stops. There's no way to tell
if it's ihnehu(a) or i:nehu(a) or ine:hu(a), etc.

> Is its root eua?

Not likely. It doesn't at all appear that the "in" can be detached from the
stem.

> And what is the sense that connects its two meanings "dar un mal golpe"
> (miss a blow) and "estar pose?do por el demonio" (Be possessed by the devil).

What is the source of the second gloss?



---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
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From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Mon Jul  5 12:01:11 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 08:01:11 -0400
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <20040705043158.6583.qmail@web90010.mail.scd.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.080111.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

on 7/5/04 12:31 AM, rick dosan at rich_photos at YAHOO.COM wrote:

In answer to the comment of where can ineua be found to mean "estar poseido
por el demonio"; I found it in Sim?on.


Thanks.  I should have looked there. My excuse is that Molina sits at my
right hand at all times, and Simeon is on the shelf out in our
cottage-cum-library.  I just trekked across the yard and fetched Simeon.
What he glosses as 'estar poseido por el demonio' is the construction notech
qu-ineua.  This is in the format carried over from Molina in which the
sample construction is the first person.  In this case, the first-personess
is not, however, expressed in the verb;  qu-ineua is third-person singular.
The crucial part is the associated postpositional phrase no-te:ch 'stuck to
me.'  I think the sense of this construction (an established idiom,
apparently) is that one has been struck by a randomly directed blow.  That
is, one is suffering not as the result of any fault of one's own, but as an
incidental victim of being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

In addition to Molina, Simeon drew from Clavigero, among others.  This may
be the source of this idiom.

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From malinal at EVHR.NET  Mon Jul  5 13:52:37 2004
From: malinal at EVHR.NET (Alexis Wimmer)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:52:37 +0200
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.155237.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Re: ineua & how-to-citethis idiom is also often fund in the Florentine Codex.

  ? itech qujneoaz ?, (who meet cihuapipiltin) .. an evil would possess him.  Sah4,81.

  is said from who meet  

  ? injc amo aca tennecujliviz, ixnecuiliujz, t?mpatziujz, itech quinenaz ?, lest one of (the children) might develop misshapen lips, or crossed eyes, or hare lip, or be possessed. (also by meeting cihuapipiltin)

  Sah4,41.

  ? cenca tlaquauh oncan tetech quineoaia ?, at this time they might be violently possessed. Of children when the cihuateteoh descend. Sah4,107.

  ? inic ?cah ?tech quin?hua ?, when some one was under their spell (of the cihu?t?teoh, cihu?p?piltin). Sah1,72.

  See also Sah11,129 where  it is used for hallucinogenic plants (ol?liuhqui tl?p?tl).

   

  Alexis Wimmer



    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Frances Karttunen 
    To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU 
    Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 2:01 PM
    Subject: Re: ineua & how-to-cite


    on 7/5/04 12:31 AM, rick dosan at rich_photos at YAHOO.COM wrote:


      In answer to the comment of where can ineua be found to mean "estar poseido por el demonio"; I found it in Sim?on.  


      Thanks.  I should have looked there. My excuse is that Molina sits at my right hand at all times, and Simeon is on the shelf out in our cottage-cum-library.  I just trekked across the yard and fetched Simeon.  What he glosses as 'estar poseido por el demonio' is the construction notech qu-ineua.  This is in the format carried over from Molina in which the sample construction is the first person.  In this case, the first-personess is not, however, expressed in the verb;  qu-ineua is third-person singular.  The crucial part is the associated postpositional phrase no-te:ch 'stuck to me.'  I think the sense of this construction (an established idiom, apparently) is that one has been struck by a randomly directed blow.  That is, one is suffering not as the result of any fault of one's own, but as an incidental victim of being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

      In addition to Molina, Simeon drew from Clavigero, among others.  This may be the source of this idiom.
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From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU  Mon Jul  5 18:17:44 2004
From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:17:44 -0500
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <20040705043158.6583.qmail@web90010.mail.scd.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.131744.0500.MDMORRIS@INDIANA.EDU>

Off the cuff, I would suggest possibly looking at this word as a compound
of nehui/nehua and il- or ihi- , i.e. ihnehua, ilnehua.  Nehui/nehua means
something like "to equal, to resemble," but was also consistently used in
colonial Tlaxcala to describe receipt of superior orders from the colonial
administration, e.g. onechtlaneuh in Despacho, "we received the judgment,
order."  Ihnehua or ilnehua, then, could describe spirit possession what
would be demon possession in the Church's eyes.  However, I think there is
a basic problem in Simeon's entry that removes this "word" from prudent
use of lexicon.  I'm sorry I don't have time to add detailed notes, but I
think it is very doubtful that this verb, like inecui that precedes it,
is an independent verb--these are compound verbs, probably transcribed
with errors and dependent on certain contexts that provide as much of
their meaning as the morphological elements.

sincerely,
Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From caroline.dodds at CCC.OX.AC.UK  Mon Jul  5 18:20:19 2004
From: caroline.dodds at CCC.OX.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 19:20:19 +0100
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.192019.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Re: ineua & how-to-citeDear all, 

I have 'lurked' on this list for a long time and found it very interesting, although I must confess that many of the discussions go over my head! I am struggling, as ever, to improve my Nahuatl and I hoped that someone might help me. 

I am trying to check the translation of a term from the Florentine Codex and am having trouble tracing how it has been derived. The term is 'suchioa', which is given by Dibble and Anderson as 'pervert'. I have tried every variation I can think of and am now wondering whether it may have been drawn from the Spanish 'sucio/cia' (meaning dirty/filthy) as this is the only possible derivation I seem to be able to find! 

Sorry if this is a really stupid question, but I would really appreciate any help that people could offer! 

Yours,
Caroline Dodds
-----
History Faculty
University of Cambridge
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From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU  Tue Jul  6 02:15:55 2004
From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 22:15:55 -0400
Subject: suchioa
In-Reply-To: <002701c462bc$bb71fd40$227e7ad5@Caroline>
Message-ID: <MON.5.JUL.2004.221555.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Caroline,
Several things come to mind here, but it would be helpful if you gave
the larger context in which this word appears.
Just based on what you provide, I wouldn't think that this was a loan
word based on "sucio", because the "chioa" portion appears to be the
verb "chihua". In other places, the Florentine expresses the notion of
to pervert or perverted as "teyolcuepa" and "tlacamicqui", but the use
of "chihua" with a preceding, attached noun stem whose meaning was
associated with perversion would also seem to be a viable way to convey
the same idea. Again, just based on the spelling you give of this
isolated word, I would guess that "suchioa" would normalize to
"zochihua", which would seem to break down as "zotl" (cloth) and
"chihua" (to make or do). The problem here is that it is kind of hard to
get from the literal meaning of "cloth" to the sense of "pervert". This
is why the larger context might help. Is there anything preceding the
word which might actually be part of it? It would make more sense if the
word were something like "ahtlazochihua" [to make s.t. worthless or in a
worthless way] or even better "tlazolchihua" [to make s.t. corrupt,
filthy, etc. or in a corrupt, filthy way]. I don't know if these
constructions were actually used, but if they were, either one
(especially the second one: "tlazolchihua") could possibly convey the
notion of "to pervert."
There may be other possibilities, and I may be missing something, but it
is hard to tell with out more context.
Galen





Caroline Dodds wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I have 'lurked' on this list for a long time and found it very
> interesting, although I must confess that many of the discussions go
> over my head! I am struggling, as ever, to improve my Nahuatl and I
> hoped that someone might help me.
>
> I am trying to check the translation of a term from the Florentine
> Codex and am having trouble tracing how it has been derived. The term
> is 'suchioa', which is given by Dibble and Anderson as 'pervert'. I
> have tried every variation I can think of and am now wondering whether
> it may have been drawn from the Spanish 'sucio/cia' (meaning
> dirty/filthy) as this is the only possible derivation I seem to be
> able to find!
>
> Sorry if this is a really stupid question, but I would really
> appreciate any help that people could offer!
>
> Yours,
> Caroline Dodds
> -----
> History Faculty
> University of Cambridge

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From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Tue Jul  6 13:18:01 2004
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:18:01 -0500
Subject: ineua & how-to-cite
In-Reply-To: <1088944267.25070.199701858@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.081801.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

At 07:31 AM 7/4/2004, you wrote:
>On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:51:08 -0400, "Geoff Davis" <mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM>
>said:
> > My mistake.  I don't have a copy of this book, yet, as amazon.com has
> > nothing of Alonso de Molina -- all are marked out of print.
>
>try going to <http://www.porrua.com> and do a 'busqueda avanzada' for
>'molina' in the author field and 'vocabulario' in the title field. that
>should give you two titles. i have no idea what the difference is
>between the two, but at least the second one should still be available.
>(and don't be alarmed by the $250.00. those are mexican pesos. the
>bottom price is USD.)


I was in the Porrua store a month ago and they assured me that the book is
most definitely out of print and they have no indication when it might be
reprinted.





John F. Schwaller
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
315 Behmler Hall
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at mrs.umn.edu


From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Tue Jul  6 13:21:44 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:21:44 -0500
Subject: subordinate claws
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1040705122102.26865A-100000@lear.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.082144.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

The other day, in the midst of discussion of "ineua" Dr. Karttunen wrote
me this off-list:


"It's not really clear whether Nahuatl even has (or had prior to exposure
to the model of Spanish) subordinate clauses as we know them.  I believe
it was Jane Rosenthal who wrote on the topic of "headless relative
clauses" in Nahuatl a long time ago, but Jim Lockhart and I were not
really sure that such constructions weren't just concatenated sentences
rather than a main clause and a subordinate clause."

In the message i'd sent to the list that prompted this response, I should
have spoken more clearly. What I meant to say is that I've been running
across in reading the Florentine *many* lines where "in" introduces a
statement that describes a preceding statement to the left of the "in,"
and that the translation into English of the statement following the "in"
is best accomplished by the use of a relative clause.  Inon ca mochi.

Best,
Michael


From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu  Tue Jul  6 13:42:17 2004
From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:42:17 -0500
Subject: -in- as clause introducer
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.084217.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Andrews does touch on -tin as a clause introducer.  In the Second edition
he writes:

"2. Adjunctors (adjoined-clause introducers)
in = the, a/an, who, that, when, if, etc. [The adjunctor par
excellence.  The translation into English is whatever the English context
requires.  The use of -in- to indicate adjoined units is almost always
option; adjunction (or subordination) rarely has to be explicitly stated in
Nahuatl.  The -in- may indicate that only a single item is subordinate or
that a multi-itemed sequence is.] " p. 40




John F. Schwaller
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
315 Behmler Hall
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at mrs.umn.edu


From ced44 at CAM.AC.UK  Tue Jul  6 14:10:38 2004
From: ced44 at CAM.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:10:38 +0100
Subject: Translation help
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.151038.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>


Dear all, 

I have 'lurked' on this list (under another address) for a long time and found it very interesting, although I must confess that many of the discussions go over my head! I am struggling, as ever, to improve my Nahuatl and I hoped that someone might help me. 

I am trying to check the translation of a term from the Florentine Codex and am having trouble tracing how it has been derived. The term is 'suchioa', which is given by Dibble and Anderson as 'pervert'. I have tried every variation I can think of and am now wondering whether it may have been drawn from the Spanish 'sucio/cia' (meaning dirty/filthy) as this is the only possible derivation I seem to be able to find! 

Sorry if this is a really stupid question, but I would really appreciate any help that people could offer! 

Yours,
Caroline Dodds
-----
History Faculty
University of Cambridge
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From mmontcha at OREGONVOS.NET  Tue Jul  6 19:55:36 2004
From: mmontcha at OREGONVOS.NET (Matthew Montchalin)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:55:36 -0700
Subject: intervocalic s > ch
In-Reply-To: <003d01c46363$042c22d0$e2d28351@Caroline>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.125536.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

|I am trying to check the translation of a term from the Florentine
|Codex and am having trouble tracing how it has been derived. The term is
|'suchioa', which is given by Dibble and Anderson as 'pervert'. I have
|tried every variation I can think of and am now wondering whether it may
|have been drawn from the Spanish 'sucio/cia' (meaning dirty/filthy) as
|this is the only possible derivation I seem to be able to find!

If this is true, perhaps there are some other instances of an
intervocalic Spanish /s/ turning into an intervocalic Nawatl /ch/ ?

This kind of sound shift would be very useful if it appears in other
Spanish/Nawatl word pairs.


From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Tue Jul  6 20:46:14 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:46:14 -0500
Subject: suchioa
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0407061252471.4183-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.154614.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Maybe Galen mentioned this this morning; I don't remember. But, when list
members write in for assistance with a certain etymon, they would
further things along if they were to include the context, i.e., the phrase
or sentence in which it appears. The  list certainly has no lack of eager
beavers ready to help. Nahuatl seems to do that to its scholars and
students-- make them enthusiastic about the subject. But the old-time
Spanish orthography does not always contribute to a clean interpretation
of a single, free-floating spelling. It's conceivable that the s- of
suchioa could me a miswritten or misinterpreted m-. "Anything" is possible
with a single word.

Tlaxtlahui,

Michael

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004, Matthew Montchalin wrote:

> |I am trying to check the translation of a term from the Florentine
> |Codex and am having trouble tracing how it has been derived. The term is
> |'suchioa', which is given by Dibble and Anderson as 'pervert'. I have
> |tried every variation I can think of and am now wondering whether it may
> |have been drawn from the Spanish 'sucio/cia' (meaning dirty/filthy) as
> |this is the only possible derivation I seem to be able to find!
>
> If this is true, perhaps there are some other instances of an
> intervocalic Spanish /s/ turning into an intervocalic Nawatl /ch/ ?
>
> This kind of sound shift would be very useful if it appears in other
> Spanish/Nawatl word pairs.
>
>
>

"...and cicadas sing
a rare and different tune..."

R. Hunter


From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU  Tue Jul  6 20:50:39 2004
From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:50:39 -0500
Subject: Translation help
In-Reply-To: <003d01c46363$042c22d0$e2d28351@Caroline>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.155039.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Caroline,

Could you cite the passage in question, textually and its location?  It
seems likely that flower is being related to moral qualities, perhaps a
likening of sensuous to perverse, but one would have to see the context
because the word's literal meaning doesn't say perverse.
There would also be the close phonetic match of xochioia meaning bewitched
and perhaps Anderson and Dibble decided that was the intended statement.



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From ced44 at CAM.AC.UK  Tue Jul  6 21:45:52 2004
From: ced44 at CAM.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:45:52 +0100
Subject: suchioa
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.224552.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Apologies to all those who have requested that I cite the passage.

The reason that I didn't give more context at the time is the the term is a title, not part of a text. It comes from the Florentine Codex, Book 10, The People and is the title to the section presented in the facing text as that concerning 'The Pervert'. I am doing some research on Aztec gender and sexuality, which is why I was trying to trace the roots of the word (to try and examine its implications). I am wondering now whether it is simply a case that Sahag?n was told by his informants that this was the meaning of the term - you would, however, expect some kind of logical root. 

I do not have the Nahuatl passage here, but will have to look it up when I next am in the library. If anyone is able to supply it so that we can continue the discussion then that would be much appreciated. The original is from the Florentine Codex, Book 10, The People, p. 37 (from the 1961 Dibble and Anderson edition). For purposes of identification, the English translation of the text which follows the  heading Suchioa/Pervert is: "The pervert [is] of feminine speech, of feminine mode of address. [If a woman, she is] of masculine speech, of masculine mode of address; [she has] a vulva, a crushed vulva, a friction-loving vulva. [He is] a corrupter, a deranger; one who deprives one of his reason. She rubs her vulva on one; she perverts, confuses, corrupts one."

Thanks for all who have offered helpful comments despite my inadequate quotation!

Yours,
Caroline
----
History Faculty
University of Cambridge
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From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU  Tue Jul  6 22:29:29 2004
From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 17:29:29 -0500
Subject: suchioa
In-Reply-To: <013801c463a2$9c852600$e2d28351@Caroline>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.172929.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Caroline,

I think this more literally would be "The Sensualist," but note also that
Dibble and Anderson translated "to bewitch one" (texochihuia) as "she
perverts."  I also note that they translate pix as vulva which is not
found later in the same book nor does Lopez Austin, who also drew from
Molina, include it in his diagrams in _The Human Body_.  I'd be happy to
know a little bit more about the history of this passage, which is not
included in the _Historia General_, and its translations.  Finally, I
think we could consider the parenthetical (If a woman). . .talks like a
man. . .a hypothesis and that the passage might refer to ambivalent gender
in general, thus men and women who are both like men and like women.


best,
Mark Morris

















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Tue Jul  6 22:59:30 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:59:30 -0400
Subject: intervocalic s > ch
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0407061252471.4183-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.185930.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

on 7/6/04 3:55 PM, Matthew Montchalin at mmontcha at OREGONVOS.NET wrote:

> |I am trying to check the translation of a term from the Florentine
> |Codex and am having trouble tracing how it has been derived. The term is
> |'suchioa', which is given by Dibble and Anderson as 'pervert'. I have
> |tried every variation I can think of and am now wondering whether it may
> |have been drawn from the Spanish 'sucio/cia' (meaning dirty/filthy) as
> |this is the only possible derivation I seem to be able to find!
>
There is a Nahuatl intransitive verb xo:chiyoa:, which means 'to bloom, to
flower."  I don't see how this can be glossed as 'pervert.' Can you give us
the reference in the FC?


From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM  Tue Jul  6 21:53:28 2004
From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:53:28 +0200
Subject: Postpositions
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.235328.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

  In analyzing postpositions, and after having consulted various sources, I
find myself confused (again!), about the difference between the following:

    1.. PA and HUIC (towards)
    2.. ICAMPA and TEPOTZCO (behind)
    3.. ICPAC and PAN (on)
    4.. IXPAN and IXCO (in front of  [in the face of])
    5.. NAHUAC, TITLAN, HUAC and TECH (near)
    6.. NEPANTLA and TZALAN (between)




  And, further, what happens when you add a possessive prefix ending in "O"
(or "I") to a postposition starting with "I"? MOICAMPA, TOIXPAN, NOIXCO....
and IICPAC...

  This looks a bit odd to me.



  Occepa, tlazohcamati huel  huel miac!!!!



  Susanatontli


From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Tue Jul  6 23:09:05 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 19:09:05 -0400
Subject: suchioa
In-Reply-To: <013801c463a2$9c852600$e2d28351@Caroline>
Message-ID: <TUE.6.JUL.2004.190905.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

on 7/6/04 5:45 PM, Caroline Dodds at ced44 at CAM.AC.UK wrote:

Apologies to all those who have requested that I cite the passage.

The reason that I didn't give more context at the time is the the term is a
title, not part of a text. It comes from the Florentine Codex, Book 10, The
People and is the title to the section presented in the facing text as that
concerning 'The Pervert'. I am doing some research on Aztec gender and
sexuality, which is why I was trying to trace the roots of the word (to try
and examine its implications). I am wondering now whether it is simply a
case that Sahag?n was told by his informants that this was the meaning of
the term - you would, however, expect some kind of logical root.

I do not have the Nahuatl passage here, but will have to look it up when I
next am in the library. If anyone is able to supply it so that we can
continue the discussion then that would be much appreciated. The original is
from the Florentine Codex, Book 10, The People, p. 37 (from the 1961 Dibble
and Anderson edition). For purposes of identification, the English
translation of the text which follows the  heading Suchioa/Pervert is: "The
pervert [is] of feminine speech, of feminine mode of address. [If a woman,
she is] of masculine speech, of masculine mode of address; [she has] a
vulva, a crushed vulva, a friction-loving vulva. [He is] a corrupter, a
deranger; one who deprives one of his reason. She rubs her vulva on one; she
perverts, confuses, corrupts one."


This begins to make sense.  A:huiyanimeh, 'courtesans, women of pleasure'
(literally 'ones who habitually enjoy themselves') were conventionally
depicted with their hair loosened, standing on water (symbolizing the first
syllable of the word a:huiyani), and holding flowers.  So we are not likely
looking at the verb meaning to blossom, but rather to the possessor
construction:

xo:chi-yo:-huah 'one who possesses a bunch of flowers'



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From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM  Wed Jul  7 05:30:31 2004
From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 06:30:31 +0100
Subject: suchioa
In-Reply-To: <BD10A951.2E40%karttu@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.063031.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

--- Frances Karttunen <karttu at NANTUCKET.NET> wrote:
> This begins to make sense.  A:huiyanimeh, 'courtesans, women of
> pleasure' ... and holding flowers. So we are not likely
> looking at the verb meaning to blossom, but rather to the possessor
> construction:
> xo:chi-yo:-huah 'one who possesses a bunch of flowers'

Or, did Aztec courtesans habitually carry flowers?


From chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jul  7 06:18:35 2004
From: chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM (marcelo)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 03:18:35 -0300
Subject: suchioa
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.031835.0300.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

yes, they did. cortes letters, as a first refernce.... mens at arms, men
with flowers...
 
-------Mensaje original-------
 
De: Nahua language and culture discussion
Fecha: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 03:03:18
A: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Asunto: Re: suchioa
 
--- Frances Karttunen <karttu at NANTUCKET.NET> wrote:
> This begins to make sense. A:huiyanimeh, 'courtesans, women of
> pleasure' ... and holding flowers. So we are not likely
> looking at the verb meaning to blossom, but rather to the possessor
> construction:
> xo:chi-yo:-huah 'one who possesses a bunch of flowers'

Or, did Aztec courtesans habitually carry flowers? 
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From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU  Wed Jul  7 13:38:07 2004
From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:38:07 -0400
Subject: suchioa
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.093807.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

>     This begins to make sense.  A:huiyanimeh, 'courtesans, women of
>     pleasure' (literally 'ones who habitually enjoy themselves') were
>     conventionally depicted with their hair loosened, standing on water
>     (symbolizing the first syllable of the word a:huiyani), and holding
>     flowers.  So we are not likely looking at the verb meaning to
>     blossom, but rather to the possessor construction:
>
>     xo:chi-yo:-huah 'one who possesses a bunch of flowers'


If this is correct, then it would seem that this is another example of
what Alexis was talking about with regard to "iniacapepech" which leaves
out the "y".
But how do we know that there is a "yo:" in there?
It seems to me that the "oa" in "suchioa" may just be "hua" rather than
"yo:hua."
"xo:chiyo:huah" would mean something like "one who possesses what is
characteristic of flowers or the essence of flowers." "xo:chihuah" would
be more literally, "one who possesses flowers" which would be consistent
with words like "xochihuia" literally meaning "to apply flowers" with
the figurative meaning "to seduce."
Galen


From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Wed Jul  7 13:49:48 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:49:48 -0400
Subject: suchioa
In-Reply-To: <40EBFCBF.1070509@buffalo.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.094948.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

> But how do we know that there is a "yo:" in there?

Actually we don't, and I think your understanding of "suchioa" as
xo:chi-huah is more likely.

Fran


From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU  Wed Jul  7 14:16:55 2004
From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:16:55 -0400
Subject: nepohualtziztin
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.101655.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I was wondering if anyone has run across the term nepohualtzitzin or
something with a similiar meaning.
Boturini claims that the Nahuas employed a system of knotted, colored
strings to record historical information. He says this system was called
nepohualtzitzin, and he compares it to the Peruvian quipu. As far as I
know, this is the only reference to such a system in Mesoamerica. He
claims that he saw one of these devices in Tlaxcala but that it was very
old and deteriorated. I was wondering if anybody had come across any
other references to anything similar. As far as I know, this does not
appear in any way in the Florentine, which makes Boturini's much later
assertion seem kind of suspicious.
Thanks,
Galen


From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Wed Jul  7 15:45:00 2004
From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 17:45:00 +0200
Subject: intervocalic s > ch
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.174500.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Its important to take into consideration the period when discussing Spanish
orthographic <s>. The 16th century Spanish orthographic <s> had a distinct
realization from the (Mexican) Spanish /s/ today. It probably had a
different point of articulation and intervocalically it was voiced. The <s>
was used to represent the palatal /x/ in the 16th century for various
Mesoamerican indigenous languages.

Instances of intervocalic /x/ > /ch/ seem to be quite uncommon in Nahuatl. A
few examples are given by Karen Dakin and Soren Wichmann in their 2000
Ancient Mesoamerica article on Cacao and Chocolate; all seem to be cases of
progressive assimilation. (e.g. chal=xiwi-tl > chalchihuitl).


-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Montchalin [mailto:mmontcha at OREGONVOS.NET]
Sent: dinsdag 6 juli 2004 21:56
To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Subject: intervocalic s > ch


|I am trying to check the translation of a term from the Florentine
|Codex and am having trouble tracing how it has been derived. The term is
|'suchioa', which is given by Dibble and Anderson as 'pervert'. I have
|tried every variation I can think of and am now wondering whether it may
|have been drawn from the Spanish 'sucio/cia' (meaning dirty/filthy) as
|this is the only possible derivation I seem to be able to find!

If this is true, perhaps there are some other instances of an
intervocalic Spanish /s/ turning into an intervocalic Nawatl /ch/ ?

This kind of sound shift would be very useful if it appears in other
Spanish/Nawatl word pairs.


From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Wed Jul  7 16:18:29 2004
From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 18:18:29 +0200
Subject: -in- as clause introducer
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.181829.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

The syntactic function of 'in' is extremely interesting. I would be very
glad to have a good grammatical description of it in modern variants of
Nahuatl. Regarding Classical Nahuatl, I have found Launey's work very
helpful in this. His well ordered examples are fantastic. 

To complement the Andrews citation, here's what Launey writes in his 1994
book regarding relatives:
"Il y a cependant en nahuatl une autre tournure qu'on peut appeler
relative... Il s'agit en effet d'une structure de type propositionnel,
introduite par in, et le plus souvent postpos?e ? un ant?c?dent
obligatoirement nominal. Cet ant?c?dent peut ?tre cor?f?rent dans la
relative du sujet d'un pr?dicat verbal ou (plus rarement) nominal (type
qui);...de l'objet d'un pr?dicat verbal (type que);... du g?nitif d'un nom
(type dont) ou d'un locatif (relatives en relation circonstancielle).
L'ant?c?dent peut ?tre un d?ictique. La cor?f?rence peut se faire avec une
structure elle-m?me domin?e par un pr?dicat...Il y a quelques rares exemples
de relatives ant?pos?es, pour lesquelles on peut faire le m?me raisonnement
qu'? propos des ?pith?tes--c'est ? dire: il faut consid?rer que c'est bien
le nom qui suit qui est l'ant?c?dent" (pp. 122-23).

-----Original Message-----
From: John F. Schwaller [mailto:schwallr at MRS.UMN.EDU]
Sent: dinsdag 6 juli 2004 15:42
To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Subject: -in- as clause introducer


Andrews does touch on -tin as a clause introducer.  In the Second edition
he writes:

"2. Adjunctors (adjoined-clause introducers)
in = the, a/an, who, that, when, if, etc. [The adjunctor par
excellence.  The translation into English is whatever the English context
requires.  The use of -in- to indicate adjoined units is almost always
option; adjunction (or subordination) rarely has to be explicitly stated in
Nahuatl.  The -in- may indicate that only a single item is subordinate or
that a multi-itemed sequence is.] " p. 40




John F. Schwaller
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
315 Behmler Hall
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at mrs.umn.edu


From smarcos at INFOSEL.NET.MX  Wed Jul  7 17:06:23 2004
From: smarcos at INFOSEL.NET.MX (Dra. Sylvia Marcos)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:06:23 -0500
Subject: -in- as clause introducer
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.120623.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Swanton, M." <M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
To: <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: -in- as clause introducer


The syntactic function of 'in' is extremely interesting. I would be very
glad to have a good grammatical description of it in modern variants of
Nahuatl. Regarding Classical Nahuatl, I have found Launey's work very
helpful in this. His well ordered examples are fantastic.

To complement the Andrews citation, here's what Launey writes in his 1994
book regarding relatives:
"Il y a cependant en nahuatl une autre tournure qu'on peut appeler
relative... Il s'agit en effet d'une structure de type propositionnel,
introduite par in, et le plus souvent postpos?e ? un ant?c?dent
obligatoirement nominal. Cet ant?c?dent peut ?tre cor?f?rent dans la
relative du sujet d'un pr?dicat verbal ou (plus rarement) nominal (type
qui);...de l'objet d'un pr?dicat verbal (type que);... du g?nitif d'un nom
(type dont) ou d'un locatif (relatives en relation circonstancielle).
L'ant?c?dent peut ?tre un d?ictique. La cor?f?rence peut se faire avec une
structure elle-m?me domin?e par un pr?dicat...Il y a quelques rares exemples
de relatives ant?pos?es, pour lesquelles on peut faire le m?me raisonnement
qu'? propos des ?pith?tes--c'est ? dire: il faut consid?rer que c'est bien
le nom qui suit qui est l'ant?c?dent" (pp. 122-23).

-----Original Message-----
From: John F. Schwaller [mailto:schwallr at MRS.UMN.EDU]
Sent: dinsdag 6 juli 2004 15:42
To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Subject: -in- as clause introducer


Andrews does touch on -tin as a clause introducer.  In the Second edition
he writes:

"2. Adjunctors (adjoined-clause introducers)
in = the, a/an, who, that, when, if, etc. [The adjunctor par
excellence.  The translation into English is whatever the English context
requires.  The use of -in- to indicate adjoined units is almost always
option; adjunction (or subordination) rarely has to be explicitly stated in
Nahuatl.  The -in- may indicate that only a single item is subordinate or
that a multi-itemed sequence is.] " p. 40




John F. Schwaller
Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean
315 Behmler Hall
University of Minnesota, Morris
600 E 4th Street
Morris, MN  56267
320-589-6015
FAX 320-589-6399
schwallr at mrs.umn.edu


From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU  Wed Jul  7 19:58:10 2004
From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:58:10 -0500
Subject: nepohualtziztin
In-Reply-To: <40EC05D7.6030607@buffalo.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.145810.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Galen,

I think someone was pulling his leg.  Although possible, if there is
no other reference to that instrument in Mesoamerica it wouldn't be safe
to give Boturini's claim credence.  Although he says Nahuas, you might do
best by checking on the Otomi who were an older culture and more renowned
for their textiles and which were also often historical texts.

best,
Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU  Wed Jul  7 20:24:38 2004
From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:24:38 -0400
Subject: nepohualtziztin
Message-ID: <WED.7.JUL.2004.162438.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Hey Mark,
Yeah, well I also have this theory about quipu forgeries, but Boturini
is a little early for this. The first quipu forgery that shows up is in
the 1820s in England. Interestingly, the first image of this forged
quipu appears in 1830 in Kingsborough's ANTIQUITIES OF MEXICO.
But I wonder if Boturini's reference to nepohualtzitzin as basically a
kind of quipu is what prompted the inclusion of a quipu--which of course
at the time they did not know was a fake--in what is otherwise a
reproduction of Mexican manuscripts.
Galen




Mark David Morris wrote:
> Galen,
>
> I think someone was pulling his leg.  Although possible, if there is
> no other reference to that instrument in Mesoamerica it wouldn't be safe
> to give Boturini's claim credence.  Although he says Nahuas, you might do
> best by checking on the Otomi who were an older culture and more renowned
> for their textiles and which were also often historical texts.
>
> best,
> Mark Morris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> La muerte tiene permiso a todo
>
> MDM, PhD Candidate
> Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
>


From cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jul  8 16:03:30 2004
From: cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET (Joanna M. Sanchez)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:03:30 -0400
Subject: Molina out of print
Message-ID: <THU.8.JUL.2004.120330.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I was lucky to have found Porrua's Molina vocab. a few years back being sold
by Libros Latinos (although their prices are questionable!); you might try
with them.  JS
----- Original Message -----
From: <idiez at MAC.COM>
To: <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 10:47 PM
Subject: Molina out of print


The Molina dictionary is definitely out of print. You can't order it
from Porr?a, and it's not available at the Gandhi or S?tano in Mexico
City. If you want a copy, you need to hunt around at individual
bookstores.
John

John Sullivan, Ph.D.
Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua
Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas
Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas
Director
Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C.
Tacuba 152, int. 47
Centro Hist?rico
Zacatecas, Zac. 98000
M?xico
Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415
Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416
Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048
Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985
idiez at mac.com
www.idiez.org.mx=


From jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Fri Jul  9 21:27:43 2004
From: jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9?= Rabasa)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:27:43 -0700
Subject: yneyxcahuiltlamachiliztzin
In-Reply-To: <40EC5C06.7000608@buffalo.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUL.2004.142743.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I am working with Chimalpahin's Diario and could benefit from
insights on the followin passage:

"ca amono huel yxcoyantzinco yneyxcahuiltlamachiliztzin" (228)

Rafael Tena translates as "no se trata de ense?anza propia," which I
guess captures the sense but I am struggling with the morphology of
"yneyxcahuiltlamachiliztzin."

I have identified i:ne:ixcauia:li:tla:machilia:liz:tzin

For tlamachiliztli Karttunen gives "wisdom"

Molina has tlamachilia (nite) "arbitrar, juzgar entre partes o saber
y entender lo que otro esta pensando, o alcanzar saber algun secreto"

Molina gives various possibilities of "solo" for ixcauia. He also has
ixcauilaxca as "cosa propia mia." But I cannot make sense of the
whole.

I have the feeling that this word says more than Tena's laconic "ense?anza."

Thanks,

Jose


From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Fri Jul  9 22:10:01 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:10:01 -0400
Subject: yneyxcahuiltlamachiliztzin
In-Reply-To: <p04320406bd14b6ec5b6c@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUL.2004.181001.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

> 
> "ca amono huel yxcoyantzinco yneyxcahuiltlamachiliztzin" (228)
> 
> I have the feeling that this word says more than Tena's laconic "ense?anza."
> 


ixca:huia: can be used either reflexively or transitively. The prefix ne-
shows that in this case, it is reflexive.   The -l on the end makes it clear
that we are dealing with a nominalization from the verb, hence I would think
we are talking about singlemindedness here. The transitive verb machilia:
has the sense of discriminating among things (tla- being nonspecific
things).

The initial i- is, I am pretty sure the third-person possessive prefix.
(Notice the absence of a final absolutive suffix.)


So i:-ne-ixca:huil-tla-machiliz- would be something like 'his/her diligent
inquiry about things in general'

The -tzin implies politeness with respect to the possessor (not to the
abstract quality of inquiry).


Dos that seem more satisfying than simply "ense?anza"?

Fran


From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU  Sat Jul 10 01:59:25 2004
From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:59:25 -0500
Subject: yneyxcahuiltlamachiliztzin
In-Reply-To: <p04320406bd14b6ec5b6c@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <FRI.9.JUL.2004.205925.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Jose etc.

A more literal translation in high diction could be:

It was also not of his person (to have) his own understanding.


Ixcahui can also mean "to have in particular" and the IX in this and
ixcoyantzinco both refer to the public manifestation (or face) of the
thinking person.

best,
Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX  Wed Jul 14 02:07:33 2004
From: ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rita=20Monta=FFfffff1o?=)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:07:33 -0500
Subject: Consulta traducción
Message-ID: <TUE.13.JUL.2004.210733.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Investigo sobre la "Vara de Mando" o "Bast?n de Mando" que se entrega a las nuevas autoridades de los gobiernos ind?genas tradicionales.
Le? una traducci?n de Topiltzin (Quetzalco?tl) como "Nuestro venerado bast?n de autoridad" Me interesan much?simo opiniones al respecto. Gracias.



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Net: La mejor conexi?n a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes.
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From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Wed Jul 14 10:29:52 2004
From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:29:52 +0200
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_Consulta_traducci=F3n?=
Message-ID: <WED.14.JUL.2004.122952.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Hola Rita,
Si, de hecho la palabra nahuatl to:pi:lli ('vara de mando') parece al nombre
Topiltzin.  Si no estoy equivocado, de esta palabra (en su forma de
sustantivo posesivo, to:pi:leh) viene la palabra espanol topil (rondin or
policia comunitaria indigena).
Pero a mi conocimiento no se puede traducir la palabra Topiltzin como
"nuestra venerada vara de mando". El sufijo =tzin es un
honorifico/diminutivo. El prefijo posesivo de la primera persona plural es
to-. Asi si uno queria decir "nuestra venerada vara de mando" seria mas bien
toto:pi:ltzin.
Se puede analisar la palabra topiltzin asi: to- es el prefijo posesivo de la
primera persona plural (nuestro,-a); =tzin es el honorifico/diminutivo.
Queda entonces un raiz nominal pil, lo que quiere decir 'noble o nino' (la
forma absolutiva es pilli): "(es) nuestro honorado noble".
Si estas interesada en las varas de mando, vale la pena ojear los codices
mixtecos; tienen algunas representaciones de ellas.
Saludos,
Mike Swanton

-----Original Message-----
From: Rita Monta?fffff1o [mailto:ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX]
Sent: woensdag 14 juli 2004 4:08
To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Subject: Consulta traducci?n


 
Investigo sobre la "Vara de Mando" o "Bast?n de Mando" que se entrega a las
nuevas autoridades de los gobiernos ind?genas tradicionales.
Le? una traducci?n de Topiltzin (Quetzalco?tl) como "Nuestro venerado bast?n
de autoridad" Me interesan much?simo opiniones al respecto. Gracias.




  _____  

Do You Yahoo!?
 <http://net.yahoo.com.mx> Yahoo! Net: La mejor conexi?n a internet y 25MB
extra a tu correo por $100 al mes <http://net.yahoo.com.mx/> .


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From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU  Thu Jul 15 16:53:06 2004
From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:53:06 -0500
Subject: Notas
In-Reply-To: <71F249219F2E3845B88BE93BEC6DA4FB028B682F@lsa-m2.lsa.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUL.2004.115306.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

>From La Jornada de Oriente, 15 julio


Denuncian acoso policiaco contra un centro de cultura n?huatl en Huitziltepec

Ferm?n Alejandro Garc?a q Desde hace tres a?os en Santa Clara Huitziltepec se
estableci? un templo religioso de la tradici?n n?huatl en el cual se rinde
culto a Tonantzin o guadalupana, que es ?la madre tierra?. Desde de la semana
pasada, presuntos agentes de la Polic?a Estatal han estado amedrentando al
creador de este lugar y a los pobladores que asisten a dicho sitio.

La primera agresi?n ocurri? el s?bado 10 de julio, cuando a las 3 de la tarde
lleg? al centro religioso en cuesti?n, tambi?n conocido como ?la capilla del
cerrito?, un supuesto grupo de siete agentes de la Polic?a Estatal, los cuales
portando armas de grueso calibre y apuntando hacia la gente que estaba ah?,
tomaron fotograf?as del lugar.
El creador y encargado de ese centro religioso, Citlalxochitzin Topalzin, en
entrevista con La Jornada de Oriente, narr? que mand? a un ni?o a preguntar a
los uniformados qu? estaban haciendo. Los agentes le respondieron que estaban
recabando informaci?n acerca del responsable del templo.

No le dio importancia a lo sucedido ?dijo?, pues al comentarlo con otras personas
le dijeron que probablemente los polic?as iban de paso y la curiosidad los
llev? a entrar al templo, aunque al mismo tiempo le hicieron la observaci?n de
que no es habitual que agentes policiacos lleguen a la comunidad.

El martes de esta semana, al mediod?a, Citlalxochitzin Topalzin estaba debajo
de un ?rbol, dialogando con un grupo de alumnos que tiene de la primaria del
pueblo. A unos metros de distancia, por espacio de cinco minutos, de nueva
cuenta un grupo de supuestos agentes de la Polic?a Estatal, mal encarados, sin
dar explicaciones, lo estuvieron observando y tom?ndole fotograf?as.

Una mujer y un hombre de la comunidad, que conocen el funcionamiento de los
cuerpos de seguridad p?blica, alertaron a Citlalxochitzin acerca de que dos
grupos de las polic?as Estatal y Judicial, los primeros provenientes de
Huixcolotla y los segundos de Tecali de Herrera, lo andan vigilando para
intentar detenerlo.

A la gente del pueblo le ha indignado mucho lo que esta sucediendo, se?ala el
entrevistado, pues independientemente del culto que sea, la poblaci?n considera
una grave ofensa que alguien entre con armas de fuego a un centro religioso y
se dedique a amedrentar. Adem?s los presuntos polic?as que llegaron no han
querido dar una explicaci?n de su presencia.

Conflictos con el sacerdote

Citlalxochitzin Topalzin es un joven estimado en la comunidad. Imparte clases
lo mismo en la primaria, que en secundaria y el bachillerato de este pueblo. En
el tercero de estos planteles, el gobierno lo dot? de computadoras, pero no de
maestro de c?mputo. Topalzin, de manera voluntaria, sin cobrar, accedi? a
ense?ar a los alumnos el manejo de dicho equipo.

Hasta ahora no se ha involucrado con ninguno de los grupos pol?ticos de la
comunidad. Solamente participa en actividades del Frente Zapatista y con
organizaciones ind?genas. Cuando el 16 de junio de 2001 el Congreso de la Uni?n
aprob? una reforma constitucional en materia de derechos y cultura ind?gena sin
respetar los acuerdos de San Andr?s Larr?inzar, ?l decidi? ?entrar en rebeld?a
contra el Estado mexicano?, por lo que inciner? sus documentos oficiales y
mand? una carta de protesta a la presidencia de la Rep?blica, pero sin agredir
a nadie.

La ?nica persona que ha mostrado animadversi?n en su contra, sostiene, es un
p?rroco de apellido N?jera, quien no soporta que Citlalxochitzin Topalzin
difunda la tradici?n de la cultura n?huatl.

En varias ocasiones, en las homil?as dominicales, el cl?rigo ha lanzado
diatribas contra el responsable de ?la capilla del cerrito?.

Este cura, narra Topalzin, ha intervenido en los conflictos del pueblo,
revuelve la actividad religiosa con la pol?tica. Cuando hace algunos a?os hab?a
una disputa entre grupos del PRD y el PRI de la alcald?a del municipio, el
sacerdote se identific? y luch? con una de estas fuerzas pol?ticas.

Por esa raz?n no descarta que una queja del sacerdote haya generado el acoso
policiaco que ha sufrido en los ?ltimos d?as.

El centro religioso que instal? en Huitziltepec, explic? Topalzin, tiene por
objeto el dar a conocer el arte, las costumbres y la cosmovisi?n de la cultura
n?huatl. Tanto ind?genas de municipios vecinos como de la Sierra Norte y otras
partes del pa?s han estado en este lugar para conocer un poco m?s de la
adoraci?n de Tonantzin, que entre los indios es la guadalupana, ?la madre de la
tierra?.

Hasta ahora, dijo, ha respetado la libertad de cultos y no ha agredido a los
cat?licos del pueblo; muchos de ellos al mismo tiempo son asiduos asistentes al
templo n?huatl.


From ealtamir at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jul 15 23:58:08 2004
From: ealtamir at YAHOO.COM (Edgar Altamirano)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:58:08 -0700
Subject: donde queda Huitziltepec ?
In-Reply-To: <1089910386.40f6b6720c32c@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.15.JUL.2004.165808.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

 Hola,

? Donde queda Huitziltepec ?

 Gracias,
 Edgar


--- mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU wrote:
> From La Jornada de Oriente, 15 julio
>
>
> Denuncian acoso policiaco contra un centro de cultura n?huatl en
> Huitziltepec
>
> Ferm?n Alejandro Garc?a q Desde hace tres a?os en Santa Clara
> Huitziltepec se
> estableci? un templo religioso de la tradici?n n?huatl en el cual se
> rinde
> culto a Tonantzin o guadalupana, que es ?la madre tierra?. Desde de
> la semana
> pasada, presuntos agentes de la Polic?a Estatal han estado
> amedrentando al
> creador de este lugar y a los pobladores que asisten a dicho sitio.
>
> La primera agresi?n ocurri? el s?bado 10 de julio, cuando a las 3 de
> la tarde
> lleg? al centro religioso en cuesti?n, tambi?n conocido como ?la
> capilla del
> cerrito?, un supuesto grupo de siete agentes de la Polic?a Estatal,
> los cuales
> portando armas de grueso calibre y apuntando hacia la gente que
> estaba ah?,
> tomaron fotograf?as del lugar.
> El creador y encargado de ese centro religioso, Citlalxochitzin
> Topalzin, en
> entrevista con La Jornada de Oriente, narr? que mand? a un ni?o a
> preguntar a
> los uniformados qu? estaban haciendo. Los agentes le respondieron que
> estaban
> recabando informaci?n acerca del responsable del templo.
>
> No le dio importancia a lo sucedido ?dijo?, pues al comentarlo con
> otras personas
> le dijeron que probablemente los polic?as iban de paso y la
> curiosidad los
> llev? a entrar al templo, aunque al mismo tiempo le hicieron la
> observaci?n de
> que no es habitual que agentes policiacos lleguen a la comunidad.
>
> El martes de esta semana, al mediod?a, Citlalxochitzin Topalzin
> estaba debajo
> de un ?rbol, dialogando con un grupo de alumnos que tiene de la
> primaria del
> pueblo. A unos metros de distancia, por espacio de cinco minutos, de
> nueva
> cuenta un grupo de supuestos agentes de la Polic?a Estatal, mal
> encarados, sin
> dar explicaciones, lo estuvieron observando y tom?ndole fotograf?as.
>
> Una mujer y un hombre de la comunidad, que conocen el funcionamiento
> de los
> cuerpos de seguridad p?blica, alertaron a Citlalxochitzin acerca de
> que dos
> grupos de las polic?as Estatal y Judicial, los primeros provenientes
> de
> Huixcolotla y los segundos de Tecali de Herrera, lo andan vigilando
> para
> intentar detenerlo.
>
> A la gente del pueblo le ha indignado mucho lo que esta sucediendo,
> se?ala el
> entrevistado, pues independientemente del culto que sea, la poblaci?n
> considera
> una grave ofensa que alguien entre con armas de fuego a un centro
> religioso y
> se dedique a amedrentar. Adem?s los presuntos polic?as que llegaron
> no han
> querido dar una explicaci?n de su presencia.
>
> Conflictos con el sacerdote
>
> Citlalxochitzin Topalzin es un joven estimado en la comunidad.
> Imparte clases
> lo mismo en la primaria, que en secundaria y el bachillerato de este
> pueblo. En
> el tercero de estos planteles, el gobierno lo dot? de computadoras,
> pero no de
> maestro de c?mputo. Topalzin, de manera voluntaria, sin cobrar,
> accedi? a
> ense?ar a los alumnos el manejo de dicho equipo.
>
> Hasta ahora no se ha involucrado con ninguno de los grupos pol?ticos
> de la
> comunidad. Solamente participa en actividades del Frente Zapatista y
> con
> organizaciones ind?genas. Cuando el 16 de junio de 2001 el Congreso
> de la Uni?n
> aprob? una reforma constitucional en materia de derechos y cultura
> ind?gena sin
> respetar los acuerdos de San Andr?s Larr?inzar, ?l decidi? ?entrar en
> rebeld?a
> contra el Estado mexicano?, por lo que inciner? sus documentos
> oficiales y
> mand? una carta de protesta a la presidencia de la Rep?blica, pero
> sin agredir
> a nadie.
>
> La ?nica persona que ha mostrado animadversi?n en su contra,
> sostiene, es un
> p?rroco de apellido N?jera, quien no soporta que Citlalxochitzin
> Topalzin
> difunda la tradici?n de la cultura n?huatl.
>
> En varias ocasiones, en las homil?as dominicales, el cl?rigo ha
> lanzado
> diatribas contra el responsable de ?la capilla del cerrito?.
>
> Este cura, narra Topalzin, ha intervenido en los conflictos del
> pueblo,
> revuelve la actividad religiosa con la pol?tica. Cuando hace algunos
> a?os hab?a
> una disputa entre grupos del PRD y el PRI de la alcald?a del
> municipio, el
> sacerdote se identific? y luch? con una de estas fuerzas pol?ticas.
>
> Por esa raz?n no descarta que una queja del sacerdote haya generado
> el acoso
> policiaco que ha sufrido en los ?ltimos d?as.
>
> El centro religioso que instal? en Huitziltepec, explic? Topalzin,
> tiene por
> objeto el dar a conocer el arte, las costumbres y la cosmovisi?n de
> la cultura
> n?huatl. Tanto ind?genas de municipios vecinos como de la Sierra
> Norte y otras
> partes del pa?s han estado en este lugar para conocer un poco m?s de
> la
> adoraci?n de Tonantzin, que entre los indios es la guadalupana, ?la
> madre de la
> tierra?.
>
> Hasta ahora, dijo, ha respetado la libertad de cultos y no ha
> agredido a los
> cat?licos del pueblo; muchos de ellos al mismo tiempo son asiduos
> asistentes al
> templo n?huatl.
>





__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
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From Spoole541 at AOL.COM  Sat Jul 17 16:59:45 2004
From: Spoole541 at AOL.COM (Stafford Poole)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:59:45 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Colecci=F3n=20G=F3mez=20de=20Orozco?=
Message-ID: <SAT.17.JUL.2004.125945.EDT.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Dear Neteros:

I am looking for information on the Colecci?n G?mez de Orozco.  According to 
Virginia Guzm?n Monroy in the introduction to her catalogue of that part of 
the collection that is now in the Biblioteca del Instituto Nacional de 
Antropolog?a e Historia, the collection was divided and sold in 1944, with the major 
portion going to the Biblioteca.  She does not give much information about what 
happened to the rest it.  I am looking for a manuscript for a Nahuatl play, 
Coloquios de la Virgen Maria de Guadalupe, which was in the Colecci?n but is not 
now in the Biblioteca.  I would appreciate any clues that you can give me.

Stafford Poole
Independent scholar


From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Mon Jul 19 14:10:49 2004
From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:10:49 +0200
Subject: donde queda Huitziltepec ?
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUL.2004.161049.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

If I'm not confusing it with another, Huitziltepec is on the road south from
Puebla to Tepexi after passing Tepeaca. Nahuatl and Popoloca used to be
spoken in this region, though today I don't believe there are any indigenous
language speakers there. Hopefully I am mistaken.

-----Original Message-----
From: Edgar Altamirano [mailto:ealtamir at YAHOO.COM]
Sent: vrijdag 16 juli 2004 1:58
To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Subject: Re: donde queda Huitziltepec ?


 Hola,

? Donde queda Huitziltepec ?

 Gracias,
 Edgar


--- mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU wrote:
> From La Jornada de Oriente, 15 julio
>
>
> Denuncian acoso policiaco contra un centro de cultura n?huatl en
> Huitziltepec
>
> Ferm?n Alejandro Garc?a q Desde hace tres a?os en Santa Clara
> Huitziltepec se
> estableci? un templo religioso de la tradici?n n?huatl en el cual se
> rinde
> culto a Tonantzin o guadalupana, que es "la madre tierra". Desde de
> la semana
> pasada, presuntos agentes de la Polic?a Estatal han estado
> amedrentando al
> creador de este lugar y a los pobladores que asisten a dicho sitio.
>
> La primera agresi?n ocurri? el s?bado 10 de julio, cuando a las 3 de
> la tarde
> lleg? al centro religioso en cuesti?n, tambi?n conocido como "la
> capilla del
> cerrito", un supuesto grupo de siete agentes de la Polic?a Estatal,
> los cuales
> portando armas de grueso calibre y apuntando hacia la gente que
> estaba ah?,
> tomaron fotograf?as del lugar.
> El creador y encargado de ese centro religioso, Citlalxochitzin
> Topalzin, en
> entrevista con La Jornada de Oriente, narr? que mand? a un ni?o a
> preguntar a
> los uniformados qu? estaban haciendo. Los agentes le respondieron que
> estaban
> recabando informaci?n acerca del responsable del templo.
>
> No le dio importancia a lo sucedido ?dijo?, pues al comentarlo con
> otras personas
> le dijeron que probablemente los polic?as iban de paso y la
> curiosidad los
> llev? a entrar al templo, aunque al mismo tiempo le hicieron la
> observaci?n de
> que no es habitual que agentes policiacos lleguen a la comunidad.
>
> El martes de esta semana, al mediod?a, Citlalxochitzin Topalzin
> estaba debajo
> de un ?rbol, dialogando con un grupo de alumnos que tiene de la
> primaria del
> pueblo. A unos metros de distancia, por espacio de cinco minutos, de
> nueva
> cuenta un grupo de supuestos agentes de la Polic?a Estatal, mal
> encarados, sin
> dar explicaciones, lo estuvieron observando y tom?ndole fotograf?as.
>
> Una mujer y un hombre de la comunidad, que conocen el funcionamiento
> de los
> cuerpos de seguridad p?blica, alertaron a Citlalxochitzin acerca de
> que dos
> grupos de las polic?as Estatal y Judicial, los primeros provenientes
> de
> Huixcolotla y los segundos de Tecali de Herrera, lo andan vigilando
> para
> intentar detenerlo.
>
> A la gente del pueblo le ha indignado mucho lo que esta sucediendo,
> se?ala el
> entrevistado, pues independientemente del culto que sea, la poblaci?n
> considera
> una grave ofensa que alguien entre con armas de fuego a un centro
> religioso y
> se dedique a amedrentar. Adem?s los presuntos polic?as que llegaron
> no han
> querido dar una explicaci?n de su presencia.
>
> Conflictos con el sacerdote
>
> Citlalxochitzin Topalzin es un joven estimado en la comunidad.
> Imparte clases
> lo mismo en la primaria, que en secundaria y el bachillerato de este
> pueblo. En
> el tercero de estos planteles, el gobierno lo dot? de computadoras,
> pero no de
> maestro de c?mputo. Topalzin, de manera voluntaria, sin cobrar,
> accedi? a
> ense?ar a los alumnos el manejo de dicho equipo.
>
> Hasta ahora no se ha involucrado con ninguno de los grupos pol?ticos
> de la
> comunidad. Solamente participa en actividades del Frente Zapatista y
> con
> organizaciones ind?genas. Cuando el 16 de junio de 2001 el Congreso
> de la Uni?n
> aprob? una reforma constitucional en materia de derechos y cultura
> ind?gena sin
> respetar los acuerdos de San Andr?s Larr?inzar, ?l decidi? "entrar en
> rebeld?a
> contra el Estado mexicano", por lo que inciner? sus documentos
> oficiales y
> mand? una carta de protesta a la presidencia de la Rep?blica, pero
> sin agredir
> a nadie.
>
> La ?nica persona que ha mostrado animadversi?n en su contra,
> sostiene, es un
> p?rroco de apellido N?jera, quien no soporta que Citlalxochitzin
> Topalzin
> difunda la tradici?n de la cultura n?huatl.
>
> En varias ocasiones, en las homil?as dominicales, el cl?rigo ha
> lanzado
> diatribas contra el responsable de "la capilla del cerrito".
>
> Este cura, narra Topalzin, ha intervenido en los conflictos del
> pueblo,
> revuelve la actividad religiosa con la pol?tica. Cuando hace algunos
> a?os hab?a
> una disputa entre grupos del PRD y el PRI de la alcald?a del
> municipio, el
> sacerdote se identific? y luch? con una de estas fuerzas pol?ticas.
>
> Por esa raz?n no descarta que una queja del sacerdote haya generado
> el acoso
> policiaco que ha sufrido en los ?ltimos d?as.
>
> El centro religioso que instal? en Huitziltepec, explic? Topalzin,
> tiene por
> objeto el dar a conocer el arte, las costumbres y la cosmovisi?n de
> la cultura
> n?huatl. Tanto ind?genas de municipios vecinos como de la Sierra
> Norte y otras
> partes del pa?s han estado en este lugar para conocer un poco m?s de
> la
> adoraci?n de Tonantzin, que entre los indios es la guadalupana, "la
> madre de la
> tierra".
>
> Hasta ahora, dijo, ha respetado la libertad de cultos y no ha
> agredido a los
> cat?licos del pueblo; muchos de ellos al mismo tiempo son asiduos
> asistentes al
> templo n?huatl.
>





__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From ced44 at CAM.AC.UK  Mon Jul 19 14:18:47 2004
From: ced44 at CAM.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:18:47 +0100
Subject: suchioa
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUL.2004.151847.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Re: suchioaThanks to all those who made suggestions in regard to 'suchioa'. I'm still not surely exactly how to interpret it, but I certainly have plenty to think about now.

Best wishes,
Caroline
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From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Mon Jul 19 16:26:44 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:26:44 -0500
Subject: Postpositions
In-Reply-To: <03a501c463ae$b42d8d40$c49bd351@mexico>
Message-ID: <MON.19.JUL.2004.112644.0500.MMCCAFFE@INDIANA.EDU>

Susana,

I don't have a *schematic* outline of how the members of the following
sets of postpositions are different from each other or how they are
similar, but I can toss out some idea and then see if others have ideas to
add.


On Tue, 6 Jul 2004, Susana Moraleda-Dragotto wrote:

>   In analyzing postpositions, and after having consulted various sources, I
> find myself confused (again!), about the difference between the following:
>
>     1.. PA and HUIC (towards)

-pa seems to be very powerful and widespread, attaching itself not only
nouns but to adverbs and particles:

o:mpa, to there, from there, or just plain there.
huehcapa from a distance
panipa  "surface" or even inside
ca:mpa to where? from where? where?
tla:lchipa |tla:l-chi-pa| 'earth-towards-towards'


note that -pa can be ***"from"*** as well as "to". In that way it does
differ from -hui:c which only means 'towards a certain direction':

nohui:c 'in my direction
te:hui:c 'in somebody's direction'

(*tlahui:c in the sense of "in something's direction' isn't used)

I don't remember every noticing *nopa or *amopa. Sounds funny to mean.
But you do see nohui:cpa, amohui:cpa, where -hui:c and -pa double up.

You also see -pa in other doublings of postpositions:

motlocpa 'from your direction', 'towards you'
totechpa 'on our part'
tla:lihticpa  'towards the inside of the earth' 'from the inside of the
earth'





>     2.. ICAMPA and TEPOTZCO (behind)

Hmmm..

Well, there is teicampa, micampa, tlaicampa, etc...

Behind the mountain is tepetl iicampa


But you also see tlatepotzco, notepotzco, tepetepotzco, nocaltepotzco

(I'm going to get lazy about marking long vowels.)

I think these two postpositions are pretty synonymous.




>     3.. ICPAC and PAN (on)

te:pan, mopan, you get those, meaning 'on someone, on you,' etc...

-icpac can mean that but it also means "over" and "above" not just on. I
believe the Spanish term is "en cima de" or something like that.

tepeticpac 'above the mountain(s)'
cuauhticpac 'above the tree(s)'

but it can mean just "on," as in tlalticpac 'upon the earth'.


>     4.. IXPAN and IXCO (in front of  [in the face of])


ixpan is essentially "presence"; ixco is essentially "face/surface
location"

but then ni:xco is translated "in my presence, before me". Hmmm...

But -i:xco does have the sense of "in/on one's face," in quixcomictic

'he/she hit him/her in the face". As far as 'surface' is concerned, you
get

things like tlai:xco 'on the surface of something' but that can also m ean
'in front of something'.

"In front of" and "in the presence of" can also be expressed by -ixtlan:

tixtlan 'in our presence'; teixtlan 'in somebody's presence', 'in front of
somebody'.


-ixco can combine readily with the personal pronoun prefixes:

nixco, mixco, iixco, tixco, amixco, etc.




>     5.. NAHUAC, TITLAN, HUAC and TECH (near)


I'm not sure what you mean by "HUAC"



-nahuac means 'within hearing distance'


-tlan has several functions or meanings:

iitlan calaqui 'he/she enters it'

atlan ticalaqui 'you are entering the water'

ximoteca noxcitlan 'Lie down at my feet"


-tech has the essential idea of "in contact with" but it can have abstract
meanings, too:

netech 'among one another'
itech 'concerning it, about it' (this is used a lot when describing the
contents of a document)
itech ocualan 'he/she got angry with him/her/it'
notoca McCafferty itech quiza in cahuayo "my name comes from 'horse'"

-tech also has an honorific form: tetzinco




>     6.. NEPANTLA and TZALAN (between)


-nepantlah basically means 'place of abundant sharing', i.e., "the
middle," where things are in common (ne:-pan-tlah):

innepantlah  'it is their middle ground'

cuauhnepantlah 'in the middle of the forest'
yohualnepantlah 'in the middle of the night'

tza:lan refers to the area between things, the midst of things

totza:lan 'among us'
i:ntza:lan 'among them'
amotza:lan 'among you all'

cuauhtzalan 'among the trees'




>
>
>
>
>   And, further, what happens when you add a possessive prefix ending in "O"
> (or "I") to a postposition starting with "I"? MOICAMPA, TOIXPAN, NOIXCO....
> and IICPAC...
>
>   This looks a bit odd to me.
>
>
I think Fran mentioned the rule a couple three weeks ago. The short
initial i- of many words is considered a "supportive vowel" and will
disappear when prefixed. Long initial i- (i:-) does not constitute a
supportive vowel, so it will not disappear. Also, the short initial i- of
some terms is not a supportive vowel.

In the case of -i:xco, the long initial i:- will not drop:

nixco, mixco, ixco (iixco), tixco, amixco, imixco, teixco, tlaixco


In the case of -ihtic, the initial short i does not drop:

nihtic, mihtic, iihtic, tihtic, amihtic, imihtic, teihtic, tlaihtic

But in the case of -(i)cpac, the short initial i drops:

nocpac, mocpac, tocpac, amocpac

You just have to learn which terms behave in which way.



I realize that what I've offered is organized very efficiently. I hope you
can still derive some benefit from it.

Michael


From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM  Tue Jul 20 22:45:11 2004
From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:45:11 +0200
Subject: Plaza de las 3 Culturas
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.004511.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

    De casualidad alguien tendria la version en Nahuatl de la placa que esta en la Plaza de las 3 Culturas:

    "EL 13 DE AGOSTO DE 1521

    HEROICAMENTE DEFENDIDO POR CUAUHTEMOC

    CAYO TLALTELOLCO EN PODER DE HERNAN CORTES

    NO FUE TRIUNFO NI DERROTA

    FUE EL DOLOROSO NACIMIENTO DEL PUEBLO MESTIZO

    QUE ES EL MEXICO DE HOY"

    Mil gracias.

    Susana


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From ced44 at CAM.AC.UK  Wed Jul 21 15:12:16 2004
From: ced44 at CAM.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:12:16 +0100
Subject: suchioa
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.161216.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Hi again.

For those who requested at the time that I provide the text from which the
term 'suchioa' was derived, here is the context (glossed in accordance with
Dibble and Anderson).

SUCHIOA
in suchioa cioatlatole, cioanotzale, oquichtlatole, oquichnotzale, pixe,
pixtlatexe, pixtlaxaqualole, teiollocuepani, teiolmalacachoani,
tenanacauiani, tepixuia, tesuchiuia, teixmalacachoa, teiolcuepa.

I hope that this satisfies curiosity and perhaps might help to clarify
things!

Best wishes,
Caroline

82 Fountain Gardens
Windsor
Berkshire
SL4 3SX
Tel: 01753 856011
Mob: 07740675610


From rsw22 at CORNELL.EDU  Wed Jul 21 14:59:11 2004
From: rsw22 at CORNELL.EDU (Randall Wood)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:59:11 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / =?iso-8859-1?Q?ficci=F3?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?n?=
 Nahuatl
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.105911.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Good day all,

I'm new to the list, so I wanted to introduce myself.  I won't have much to
contribute here, but I wanted to tell you a little about my interest in the
Nahuatl culture.  I've lived and worked in Nicaragua for over 5 years, and
married a Nicaraguan woman named Ericka.  I am also co-author to the
best-selling English language travel guidebook to Nicaragua, published by Moon
handbooks.

The Nicaraguans know their ancestors are Nahautl and regional place names
prove the link, but there are few resources available about the precolombian
history of the country.  My interest in that era led me to conceive a piece of
fiction I'm currently developing into a short novel, set in the time the
Nahuatl people migrated south towards Central America.

I look forward to interacting with everyone here, and would appreciate it if
you could point me any existing works of fiction about the Nahuatls, to make
sure I'm not beginning to write something that already exists!

Best wishes,

Randy
http://www.therandymon.com

Buenos d?as a todos:

Soy nuevo en esta lista, por lo cual me gustar?a presentarme.  No tendr? mucho
que contribuir aqu?, pero quer?a decirles un poco sobre mi interes en la
cultura Nahuatl.  He vivido y trabajado en Nicaragua por m?s de 5 a?os, y me
cas? con una Nicarag?ense llamada Ericka.  Soy tambi?n el co-escritor de la
mejor vendidad gu?a turistica de Nicaragua escrita en ingl?s, publicada por
Moon Handbooks.

Los Nicarag?enses saben que sus ra?ces son Nahuatl y nombres regionales
prueban su v?nculo, pero hay pocos recursos disponibles sobre la historia
precolombina.  Mi interes en ese per?odo me llev? a concebir la idea de una
pieza de ficci?n la cual estoy actualmente desarrollando en una novela, basada
en el per?odo en que los Nahuatl emigraron hac?a centroamerica.

Me dar? gusto interactuar con todos aqu?, y me agradar?a si Uds. me pudieran
indicar si existe ya algun libro sobre el mismo tema para as? asegurarme de
que no estoy iniciando algo que ya existe.

Saludos,

Randy
http://www.therandymon.com


From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM  Wed Jul 21 18:42:16 2004
From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:42:16 +0100
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / ficción              Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <20040721145910.GC2840@zafiro.local>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.194216.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

--- Randall Wood <rsw22 at CORNELL.EDU> wrote:
> Good day all,
>. ... My interest in that era led me to conceive a piece of fiction
> I'm currently developing into a short novel, set in the time
> the Nahuatl people migrated south towards Central America. ...
 ... Mi interes en ese per?odo me llev? a concebir la idea de una
> pieza de ficci?n la cual estoy actualmente desarrollando en una
> novela, basada en el per?odo en que los Nahuatl emigraron hac?a
> centroamerica. ...

What language will it be written in?
?En qu? lengua ser? escrito?

Was there ever a Nahatl-speaking population in and around Nicaragua, or
was there only a Nahuatl-speaking ruling and official class?
?Hab?a siempre una poblaci?n en quien habl? n?huatl y alrededor de
Nicaragua, o era all? solamente una clase predominante y la clase del
funcionario que habl? n?huatl?


From institute at CSUMB.EDU  Wed Jul 21 22:37:26 2004
From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:37:26 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ficci=F3n?= Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <20040721145910.GC2840@zafiro.local>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.153726.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU> writes:
>I look forward to interacting with everyone here, and would appreciate it if
>you could point me any existing works of fiction about the Nahuatls, to make
>sure I'm not beginning to write something that already exists!

Dear Randy,

        If you have not already done so, you may wish to review the book by
Gary Jennings titled "Aztec."  This work constitutes a remarkable piece of fiction (warts and all) pertaining to the Nahua (specifically, Mexica Aztec) peoples of pre-Hispanic central Mexico.  See
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0812521463/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-7846545-7351014#reader-link for additional details.

Saludos,

Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director
Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization
Social and Behavioral Sciences
California State University Monterey Bay
100 Campus Center
Seaside, California 93955-8001

Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu
Voice: 831-582-3760
Fax: 831-582-3566
http://archaeology.csumb.edu
http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/





Confidentiality Notice:  The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information.  It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are
notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited.  If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and
delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected.

Thank you.


From institute at CSUMB.EDU  Wed Jul 21 22:42:17 2004
From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:42:17 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ficci=F3n?= Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <20040721184216.16977.qmail@web86705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.154217.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU> writes:
>Was there ever a Nahatl-speaking population in and around Nicaragua, or
>was there only a Nahuatl-speaking ruling and official class?

Dear Gary,

        As per this second question, you may wish to review William R. Fowler's work titled The Cultural Evolution of Ancient Nahua Civilizations: The Pipil-Nicarao of Central America (1989, Oklahoma).  His work, and that of scholars such as John Fox make
clear that central Mexican and Gulf Coast populations (such as those identified with descendant populations such as the Quiche) migrated into Central America at various points in Mesoamerican "prehistory."

Best,

Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director
Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization
Social and Behavioral Sciences
California State University Monterey Bay
100 Campus Center
Seaside, California 93955-8001

Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu
Voice: 831-582-3760
Fax: 831-582-3566
http://archaeology.csumb.edu
http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/





Confidentiality Notice:  The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information.  It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are
notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited.  If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and
delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected.

Thank you.


From davius_sanctex at TERRA.ES  Wed Jul 21 23:16:53 2004
From: davius_sanctex at TERRA.ES (davius sanctex)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:16:53 +0200
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Nahuatl_Fiction_/_ficci=F3n_Nahuatl?=
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.011653.0200.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

But in Managua Lake there is a small island named /ometepe/ clearly one form
of nahuatl /ome-tepe-k/ (in fact the litte island is formed by two little
hills). I think that this was the territory of the "nicaraos", a people whom
Spaniards saw first time books in the New World. I think it is difficult
that a placename was given by the ruling class, perhaps the existence of a
placename like /ometepe/ 'two-hill-' suggest that there was some nahua
migrations to that latitude. [in fact the lacking /-k/ suggest that the
placename /ometepe/ was from a divergent form of nahuatl].

Am I dreaming about all this? :-)
Davius S.



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From juan at PAPAQUI.COM  Wed Jul 21 23:46:02 2004
From: juan at PAPAQUI.COM (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ing._Juan_Manuel_Chavar=EDa?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:46:02 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_Nahuatl_Fiction_/_ficci=F3n______________Nahuatl?=
In-Reply-To: <20040721145910.GC2840@zafiro.local>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.184602.0500.>

        Dos novelas, que acontecen en el Mexico prehispanico:

        El Coraz?n de Piedra Verde / Salvador de Madariaga
        El Dios de la Lluvia Llora sobre M?xico / Laszlo Passuth

-----Mensaje original-----
De: Nahua language and culture discussion
[mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU]En nombre de Randall Wood
Enviado el: Mi?rcoles, 21 de Julio de 2004 09:59 a.m.
Para: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Asunto: Nahuatl Fiction / ficci?n Nahuatl


Good day all,

I'm new to the list, so I wanted to introduce myself.  I won't have much to
contribute here, but I wanted to tell you a little about my interest in the
Nahuatl culture.  I've lived and worked in Nicaragua for over 5 years, and
married a Nicaraguan woman named Ericka.  I am also co-author to the
best-selling English language travel guidebook to Nicaragua, published by
Moon
handbooks.

The Nicaraguans know their ancestors are Nahautl and regional place names
prove the link, but there are few resources available about the precolombian
history of the country.  My interest in that era led me to conceive a piece
of
fiction I'm currently developing into a short novel, set in the time the
Nahuatl people migrated south towards Central America.

I look forward to interacting with everyone here, and would appreciate it if
you could point me any existing works of fiction about the Nahuatls, to make
sure I'm not beginning to write something that already exists!

Best wishes,

Randy
http://www.therandymon.com

Buenos d?as a todos:

Soy nuevo en esta lista, por lo cual me gustar?a presentarme.  No tendr?
mucho
que contribuir aqu?, pero quer?a decirles un poco sobre mi interes en la
cultura Nahuatl.  He vivido y trabajado en Nicaragua por m?s de 5 a?os, y me
cas? con una Nicarag?ense llamada Ericka.  Soy tambi?n el co-escritor de la
mejor vendidad gu?a turistica de Nicaragua escrita en ingl?s, publicada por
Moon Handbooks.

Los Nicarag?enses saben que sus ra?ces son Nahuatl y nombres regionales
prueban su v?nculo, pero hay pocos recursos disponibles sobre la historia
precolombina.  Mi interes en ese per?odo me llev? a concebir la idea de una
pieza de ficci?n la cual estoy actualmente desarrollando en una novela,
basada
en el per?odo en que los Nahuatl emigraron hac?a centroamerica.

Me dar? gusto interactuar con todos aqu?, y me agradar?a si Uds. me pudieran
indicar si existe ya algun libro sobre el mismo tema para as? asegurarme de
que no estoy iniciando algo que ya existe.

Saludos,

Randy
http://www.therandymon.com


From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Thu Jul 22 00:02:08 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:02:08 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / ficci=?ISO-8859-1?B?8w==?=n Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f7aeb07c1a5753b9aca0082ef9af8.7c1a6bc@csumb.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.200208.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

on 7/21/04 6:37 PM, Archaeology Institute at institute at CSUMB.EDU wrote:

> Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU> writes:
>> I look forward to interacting with everyone here, and would appreciate it if
>> you could point me any existing works of fiction about the Nahuatls, to make
>> sure I'm not beginning to write something that already exists!
>

>
> The book by
> Gary Jennings titled "Aztec."  This work constitutes a remarkable piece of
> fiction (warts and all) pertaining to the Nahua (specifically, Mexica Aztec)
> peoples of pre-Hispanic central Mexico.



On the other hand, there are numbers of knowledgeable people who were
appalled by "Aztec." One responsible scholar, now deceased, felt that
Jennings had misled her about what he was doing. In publicly thanking her,
he appeared to put her imprimatur on a work she found outrageous. So take
this novel on with care.

As for me, after making my way through a few chapters of "Aztec" on an
interminable flight from London to DFW, I chose boredom over experiencing
any more of it and hesitated to even leave it on the plane for someone else
to find.

I suggest a work of nonfiction instead: Inga Clendinnen's 1991 book,
"Aztecs:  An Interpretation," published by Cambridge University Press. She
set out to convey what it was like to be a man, a woman, a child growing up
in Aztec society, and she does it with color and intensity.


From dfrye at UMICH.EDU  Thu Jul 22 01:30:30 2004
From: dfrye at UMICH.EDU (Frye, David L)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:30:30 -0400
Subject: Nicaragua / Nahuatl
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.213030.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

It is hard to infer the language / ethnicity of the indigenous inhabitants of a place by looking at the place name. Place names are easily translated from one language to another, and some places have multiple names in multiple languages. 
 
Almost all the place names on the map of Oaxaca are in Nahuatl (plus the Spanish saint name): these are the names given them originally by Nahua overlords, while the indigenous Mixtec, Zapotec, etc. speakers continue (to this day) to call the towns by their Mixtec, Zapotec, etc. names--which do not appear on any maps. 
 
The names of places all across Guatemala are Nahuatl translations of Maya place names, which were given not by Nahua overlords but by the Tlaxcalteca soldiers who conquered the country under Spanish rule. 
 
As for Nicaragua, ...?
 
In the case of Omotepec > Omotepe, the absence of final "c" could be a local pronunciation, or it just as likely could be a Spanish interpretation. (There is no final "c" in Spanish, and almost all Spanish speakers will either drop it or convert it to the syllable "que").

________________________________

From: Nahua language and culture discussion on behalf of davius sanctex
Sent: Wed 7/21/2004 7:16 PM
To: NAHUAT-L at lists.umn.edu
Subject: Re: Nahuatl Fiction / ficci?n Nahuatl



But in Managua Lake there is a small island named /ometepe/ clearly one form
of nahuatl /ome-tepe-k/ (in fact the litte island is formed by two little
hills). I think that this was the territory of the "nicaraos", a people whom
Spaniards saw first time books in the New World. I think it is difficult
that a placename was given by the ruling class, perhaps the existence of a
placename like /ometepe/ 'two-hill-' suggest that there was some nahua
migrations to that latitude. [in fact the lacking /-k/ suggest that the
placename /ometepe/ was from a divergent form of nahuatl].

Am I dreaming about all this? :-)
Davius S.



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.719 / Virus Database: 475 - Release Date: 12/07/2004


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From ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX  Thu Jul 22 01:33:47 2004
From: ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rita=20Monta=FFfffff1o?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:33:47 -0500
Subject: Más novelas
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.203347.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Memorias de Do?a  Isabel de Moctezuma de Jos? Miguel Carrillo de Albornoz y Mu?oz de San Pedro, Ed. Nueva Imagen, M?xico, 1997. escrita por un pariente lejano, pero directo de Do?a Isabel de Moctezuma- seg?n reza la contraportada del libro- puede integrarse a la lista de sugerencias como  "Azteca", "El Coraz?n de Piedra Verde" y el trabajo  de Inga Clenninden, "Los Aztecas: Una interpretaci?n" que definitivamente no es una novela, sino un excelente estudio hist?rico especialmente de los rituales y las emociones que, con ellos, se pretend?a provocar. Saludos.



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Net: La mejor conexi?n a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes.
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From ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX  Thu Jul 22 01:51:31 2004
From: ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rita=20Monta=FFfffff1o?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:51:31 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / ficción              Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <20040721145910.GC2840@zafiro.local>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.205131.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>




Hola Randy:

Tambi?n soy nueva en la lista, tengo como dos semanas. Te suger? ya la novela Memorias de Do?a Isabel de Moctezuma. Despu?s record? otra novela: "Gonzalo Guerrero: Memoria Olvidada Trauma de M?xico, de Carlo Villa Roiz, Coedici?n de Plaza y Vald?s Editores, y el Consejo Nacional para la Cultura y las Artes M?xico, 1995; adem?s, opino que aunque hubiera cientos de novelas sobre el tema, toda creaci?n es ?nica e irrepetible, si tienes el inter?s, el tiempo y los conocimientos, creo que tu trabajo contribuir? a profundizar en el conocimiento de la cultura n?huatl y eso es muy bueno.

Saludos. Rita



Randall Wood <rsw22 at CORNELL.EDU> wrote: Good day all,

I'm new to the list, so I wanted to introduce myself. I won't have much to
contribute here, but I wanted to tell you a little about my interest in the
Nahuatl culture. I've lived and worked in Nicaragua for over 5 years, and
married a Nicaraguan woman named Ericka. I am also co-author to the
best-selling English language travel guidebook to Nicaragua, published by Moon
handbooks.

The Nicaraguans know their ancestors are Nahautl and regional place names
prove the link, but there are few resources available about the precolombian
history of the country. My interest in that era led me to conceive a piece of
fiction I'm currently developing into a short novel, set in the time the
Nahuatl people migrated south towards Central America.

I look forward to interacting with everyone here, and would appreciate it if
you could point me any existing works of fiction about the Nahuatls, to make
sure I'm not beginning to write something that already exists!

Best wishes,

Randy
http://www.therandymon.com

Buenos d?as a todos:

Soy nuevo en esta lista, por lo cual me gustar?a presentarme. No tendr? mucho
que contribuir aqu?, pero quer?a decirles un poco sobre mi interes en la
cultura Nahuatl. He vivido y trabajado en Nicaragua por m?s de 5 a?os, y me
cas? con una Nicarag?ense llamada Ericka. Soy tambi?n el co-escritor de la
mejor vendidad gu?a turistica de Nicaragua escrita en ingl?s, publicada por
Moon Handbooks.

Los Nicarag?enses saben que sus ra?ces son Nahuatl y nombres regionales
prueban su v?nculo, pero hay pocos recursos disponibles sobre la historia
precolombina. Mi interes en ese per?odo me llev? a concebir la idea de una
pieza de ficci?n la cual estoy actualmente desarrollando en una novela, basada
en el per?odo en que los Nahuatl emigraron hac?a centroamerica.

Me dar? gusto interactuar con todos aqu?, y me agradar?a si Uds. me pudieran
indicar si existe ya algun libro sobre el mismo tema para as? asegurarme de
que no estoy iniciando algo que ya existe.

Saludos,

Randy
http://www.therandymon.com




---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Net: La mejor conexi?n a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes.
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From cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jul 22 01:58:45 2004
From: cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET (Roland Trevino)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:58:45 -0700
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.185845.0700.CLOUDJAGUAR@EARTHLINK.NET>

Re: Nahuatl Fiction / ficci?n NahuatlI am curious about the alternate meanings for Quetzalcoatl.
1) plumed serpent
2) blue-green bird serpent
are there others?

What about Precious Serpent -- is precious ever an alternate meaning for Quetzal?

~Roland
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From bortiz at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jul 22 02:01:21 2004
From: bortiz at EARTHLINK.NET (Bernard Ortiz de Montellano)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:01:21 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / =?iso-8859-1?Q?ficci=F3n?= Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <BD247C3F.2F5B%karttu@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.210121.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

>on 7/21/04 6:37 PM, Archaeology Institute at institute at CSUMB.EDU wrote:
>
>>  Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU> writes:
>>>  I look forward to interacting with everyone here, and would
>>>appreciate it if
>>>  you could point me any existing works of fiction about the
>>>Nahuatls, to make
>>>  sure I'm not beginning to write something that already exists!
>>
>
>>
>>  The book by
>>  Gary Jennings titled "Aztec."  This work constitutes a remarkable piece of
>>  fiction (warts and all) pertaining to the Nahua (specifically, Mexica Aztec)
>>  peoples of pre-Hispanic central Mexico.
>
>
>
>On the other hand, there are numbers of knowledgeable people who were
>appalled by "Aztec." One responsible scholar, now deceased, felt that
>Jennings had misled her about what he was doing. In publicly thanking her,
>he appeared to put her imprimatur on a work she found outrageous. So take
>this novel on with care.
>
>As for me, after making my way through a few chapters of "Aztec" on an
>interminable flight from London to DFW, I chose boredom over experiencing
>any more of it and hesitated to even leave it on the plane for someone else
>to find.
>
>I suggest a work of nonfiction instead: Inga Clendinnen's 1991 book,
>"Aztecs:  An Interpretation," published by Cambridge University Press. She
>set out to convey what it was like to be a man, a woman, a child growing up
>in Aztec society, and she does it with color and intensity.
I second Frances' view. I actually read the whole thong as  well as
several others by Jennings. What most appalled me was Jennings'
distortion of the puritanical Aztecs to fit his formula writing-- sex
in all combinations of  numbers, genders, and species-- he does the
same thing to Marco Polo's China.


From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU  Thu Jul 22 02:12:44 2004
From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:12:44 -0600
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.201244.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

>>> Roland Trevino <cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET> 07/21/04 20:03 PM >>>
Re: Nahuatl Fiction / ficci?n NahuatlI am curious about the alternate meanings for Quetzalcoatl.
1) plumed serpent
2) blue-green bird serpent
are there others?

What about Precious Serpent -- is precious ever an alternate meaning for Quetzal?
-----
[Richley]
I've heard it said so. To complicate matters, iirc, coatl may also mean "twin."

~Roland


From institute at CSUMB.EDU  Thu Jul 22 02:16:34 2004
From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:16:34 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / ficcion Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <BD247C3F.2F5B%karttu@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.191634.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU> writes:
>On the other hand, there are numbers of knowledgeable people who were
>appalled by "Aztec."

Dear Ms. Karttunen,

        I too am aware of the reaction to Jennings book...particularly from those (graduate students) who chose not to read the book because they had heard similar comments second hand.  I am of the belief that when "fiction" has the potential to elicit
such a reaction from the "pros," then clearly that fiction has done its job.  I, for one, believe that the narrative accomplished what no other "fictional" treatment and or narrative on the Mexica had done to date, and that is that it made Aztec
civilization readily available to those who might not otherwise have cared to examine it on any other level.  Let's face it, few scholars in the realm of Nahuatl studies ever manage to do that...

Best Regards,

Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director
Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization
Social and Behavioral Sciences
California State University Monterey Bay
100 Campus Center
Seaside, California 93955-8001

Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu
Voice: 831-582-3760
Fax: 831-582-3566
http://archaeology.csumb.edu
http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/





Confidentiality Notice:  The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information.  It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are
notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited.  If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and
delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected.

Thank you.


From institute at CSUMB.EDU  Thu Jul 22 02:24:07 2004
From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:24:07 -0700
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / ficcion Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <a0611040dbd24cfcb54bc@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.192407.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at lists.umn.edu> writes:
>I second Frances' view. I actually read the whole thong as  well as
>several others by Jennings. What most appalled me was Jennings'
>distortion of the puritanical Aztecs to fit his formula writing-- sex
>in all combinations of  numbers, genders, and species-- he does the
>same thing to Marco Polo's China.

Dear Bernard Ortiz de Montellano,

        I think that the reality is that the most "puritanical" of peoples are also capable of the most perverse acts where sex, morality, and politics are concerned.  Despite the early "puritanical" bent of the early colonial Americans, rape, pillage,
plunder, murder, mutilation, and a whole host of less than puritanical acts and actions were inflicted on Native America, and other Americans deemed worthy of the same.  My interest in Jennings does not center on the question of sex, or any
puritanical leanings that any of us might hold dear, but rather with the ability of Jennings to "create" the Mexica world from the shreds and patches of so many works that often fall short.

Best Regards,

Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director
Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization
Social and Behavioral Sciences
California State University Monterey Bay
100 Campus Center
Seaside, California 93955-8001

Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu
Voice: 831-582-3760
Fax: 831-582-3566
http://archaeology.csumb.edu
http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/





Confidentiality Notice:  The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information.  It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are
notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited.  If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and
delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected.

Thank you.


From institute at CSUMB.EDU  Thu Jul 22 02:27:55 2004
From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:27:55 -0700
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
In-Reply-To: <s0fece56.071@hass.usu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.192755.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at lists.umn.edu> writes:
>[Richley]
>I've heard it said so. To complicate matters, iirc, coatl may also mean "twin."

Is your reference here based on the term "cuate" or "mecuate"?  The mecuate derives from that term used to make reference to the "twin" that emerges as the offspring of the agave, metl or teometl, which reproduces itself as a twin via its offspring.

Best,

Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director
Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization
Social and Behavioral Sciences
California State University Monterey Bay
100 Campus Center
Seaside, California 93955-8001

Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu
Voice: 831-582-3760
Fax: 831-582-3566
http://archaeology.csumb.edu
http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/





Confidentiality Notice:  The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information.  It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are
notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited.  If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and
delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected.

Thank you.


From Pira at ASIES.ORG.GT  Thu Jul 22 02:23:53 2004
From: Pira at ASIES.ORG.GT (Juan Pablo Pira)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:23:53 -0600
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_Nahuatl_Fiction_/_ficci=F3n______________?=
 =?iso-8859-1?Q?Nahuatl?=
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.202353.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Randall Wood escribi?:


and regional place names
prove the link, 

No siempre es as?... una buena cantidad de los pueblos en el altiplano de
Guatemala tienen nombre en Nahuatl, pero los habitantes eran y son en su
mayor?a hablantes de lenguas Mayas. Seg?n parece, la raz?n de que se usen
estos nombres es una extra?a herencia de la administraci?n colonial
espa?ola.
My interest in that era led me to conceive a piece of
fiction I'm currently developing into a short novel, 

Excelente idea! Desde ya me imagino que el libro puede ser muy interesante. 

set in the time the
Nahuatl people migrated south towards Central America.

Bueno, hay otros "mexicanos" en Nicaragua... estaban los hablantes de
Subtiaba... 

Lo que no me suena es si hubo un momento en que se movieran en masa un grupo
de hablantes de N?huatl hacia el sur y fueron dejando comunidades en el
camino como Pipiles en la Costa Sur de Guatemala y Baja Verapaz, hablantes
de Alag?ilac (algunos dicen que se parec?a al Nahuatl, no s?) en
Acasaguastl?n, M?s pipiles en El Salvador....creo que la opini?n usual fue
algo m?s gradual y desde tiempos muy remotos...

Dijo otro compa?ero de lista...



> Was there ever a Nahatl-speaking population in and around Nicaragua, or
> was there only a Nahuatl-speaking ruling and official class?
> ?Hab?a siempre una poblaci?n en quien habl? n?huatl y alrededor de
> Nicaragua, o era all? solamente una clase predominante y la clase del
> funcionario que habl? n?huatl?
> 
> 
No estoy seguro... lo que recuerdo al respecto ser?a un mapa (venerable por
su edad) de los a?os 30 en el libro "The Maya and Their Neighbors" que trata
de reconstruir la situaci?n ling??stica antes de la llegada de los
espa?oles.  Me imagino que el mapa se hace en base al com?n de la gente y no
a la elite.  Este mapa pone avanzadas de Nahuatl hasta en Panam?


Saludos,


Juan Pablo Pira
Centro de Estudios de Opini?n P?blica
ASIES


From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Thu Jul 22 03:35:09 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:35:09 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / ficcion Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f7aeb07c1db663b9aca0082ef9af8.7c1dcb1@csumb.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.233509.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

> I, for one, believe that the narrative [Jennings] accomplished what no other
"fictional"
> treatment and or narrative on the Mexica had done to date, and that is that it
> made Aztec
> civilization readily available to those who might not otherwise have cared to
> examine it on any other level.  Let's face it, few scholars in the realm of
> Nahuatl studies ever manage to do that...


Which is exactly why I suggested Clendinnen's [nonfictional] book.  If you
are looking for color and emotional intensity, you will find it there.

Whereas you say that Jennings makes "Aztec civilization readily available,"
I feel that what Jennings has made available is his particular set of lurid
fantasies, set forth with an eye to commercial success.

There is, by the way, another completely accessible book that used to
actually be sold in the Mexico City airport and may still be for all I know.
It is both accessible and accurate: Fernando Horcasitas's "The Aztecs Then
and Now."  A really lovely little book.


From rsw22 at CORNELL.EDU  Thu Jul 22 02:07:27 2004
From: rsw22 at CORNELL.EDU (Randall Wood)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:07:27 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / =?iso-8859-1?Q?ficci?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=F3n?=
In-Reply-To: <20040721184216.16977.qmail@web86705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.21.JUL.2004.220727.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

> What language will it be written in?
> ?En qu? lengua ser? escrito?

English, I suppose.  If it's good enough, I'd translate it into Spanish, where
it would have a better audience, I suppose.  But since I'm mostly writing it
for myself, it's hard to imagine writing in anything except English, for now.

>
> Was there ever a Nahatl-speaking population in and around Nicaragua, or
> was there only a Nahuatl-speaking ruling and official class?
> ?Hab?a siempre una poblaci?n en quien habl? n?huatl y alrededor de
> Nicaragua, o era all? solamente una clase predominante y la clase del
> funcionario que habl? n?huatl?

Nicaraguan tradition relates Gil Gonzalez and other conquistadores ran into
the Nicarao on the shores of Lake Cocibolca (Lago de Nicaragua), descendents
of the Nahuatl.  The Chorotega lived in small communities in the mountains,
and on the Atlantic coast were communities of Miskito, Zambo, Sumu (Mayangna)
and Rama.  I don't know anything about the Nahuatl being a class that ruled
others, but honestly I still know very little about the Nahuatl in general.

--

My Home Page: http://www.therandymon.com


From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Thu Jul 22 13:08:51 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:08:51 -0500
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
In-Reply-To: <001001c46f8f$6ca2edc0$7ae9b73f@rolandcrmw4dhe>
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.080851.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

"Quetzal" is from quetzalli '(it is) stood upright'. That's the long and
short of the *etymology*.



On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Roland Trevino wrote:

> Re: Nahuatl Fiction / ficci?n NahuatlI am curious about the alternate meanings for Quetzalcoatl.
> 1) plumed serpent
> 2) blue-green bird serpent
> are there others?
> 
> What about Precious Serpent -- is precious ever an alternate meaning for Quetzal?
> 
> ~Roland

"...and cicadas sing
a rare and different tune..."

R. Hunter


From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Thu Jul 22 14:13:31 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:13:31 -0400
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / ficci=?ISO-8859-1?B?8w==?=n
In-Reply-To: <20040722020727.GA2210@zafiro.local>
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.101331.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

> I don't know anything about the Nahuatl being a class that ruled
> others, but honestly I still know very little about the Nahuatl in general.


One thing is that "Na:huatl" is a noun used to mean 'clear, intelligible
speech.' It is related to the locative -na:huac meaning 'adjacent to.' So
Nahuatl is essentially language that can be heard and understood without
effort.

The people who spoke/still speak Nahuatl were those whose language was
mutually intelligible with that of the Me:xihcah (the Aztecs).  A single
such person is a Na:hua.  The plural (people whose language was intelligible
to the Me:xihcah) were/are Na:huah (ending with either an aspiration or a
glottal stop, depending on geographical location).

That said, most speakers of Na:huatl in Mexico call themselves Mexicans or
ma:ce:hualtin 'common people,' and they call their language mexicano or
na:huatlahto:lli 'clear speech' or ma:ce:huallahto:lli 'speech of the common
people.'

To the south of Mexico some speakers of related varieties of Na:huatl call
themselves Pipil, and people call their language Pipil too.

Fernando Horcasitas, James Lockhart and I, and many others associated with
Lockhart have translated lots and lots of Nahuatl direct discourse into
English, so besides the high rhetoric of the Florentine Codex, there are
authentic models of how ordinary Nahuah have spoken to each other from the
1500s right through to the 1960s (Horcasitas's edition of Luz Jimenez's
Memoir "Life and Death in Milpa Alta.")


From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Thu Jul 22 14:28:01 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:28:01 -0500
Subject: Nahuatl Fiction / ficci=?ISO-8859-1?B?8w==?=n
In-Reply-To: <BD2543CA.2F6F%karttu@nantucket.net>
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.092801.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Frances Karttunen wrote:

>
> That said, most speakers of Na:huatl in Mexico call themselves Mexicans or
> ma:ce:hualtin 'common people,' and they call their language mexicano or
> na:huatlahto:lli 'clear speech' or ma:ce:huallahto:lli 'speech of the common
> people.'

and to say "I speak Nahuatl," you can say "nitlahtoa ma:ce:hualcopa".





>
> To the south of Mexico some speakers of related varieties of Na:huatl call
> themselves Pipil, and people call their language Pipil too.
>
> Fernando Horcasitas, James Lockhart and I, and many others associated with
> Lockhart have translated lots and lots of Nahuatl direct discourse into
> English, so besides the high rhetoric of the Florentine Codex, there are
> authentic models of how ordinary Nahuah have spoken to each other from the
> 1500s right through to the 1960s (Horcasitas's edition of Luz Jimenez's
> Memoir "Life and Death in Milpa Alta.")
>
>
>

"...and cicadas sing
a rare and different tune..."

R. Hunter


From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU  Thu Jul 22 15:36:28 2004
From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:36:28 -0600
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.093628.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

>>> institute at CSUMB.EDU 07/21/04 20:28 PM >>>
Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at lists.umn.edu> writes:
>[Richley]
>I've heard it said so. To complicate matters, iirc, coatl may also mean "twin."

Is your reference here based on the term "cuate" or "mecuate"?  The mecuate derives from that term used to make reference to the "twin" that emerges as the offspring of the agave, metl or teometl, which reproduces itself as a twin via its offspring.
-----
[Richley]
I've been at home and am not actually sure the source (or even accuracy of my memory about it). It likely was a nonlinguistic source such as "Rain of Darts" and may, therefore, be inaccurate. I'm going up to the office today and will see if I can find it.


From robert at COATLI.COM  Thu Jul 22 19:03:12 2004
From: robert at COATLI.COM (robert barkaloff)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:03:12 -0700
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Quetzalcoatl]
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.120312.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>


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Subject: Re: Quetzalcoatl
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From robert at COATLI.COM  Thu Jul 22 19:14:51 2004
From: robert at COATLI.COM (robert barkaloff)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:14:51 -0700
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
In-Reply-To: <s0ff8aa6.068@hass.usu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.121451.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Richley Crapo wrote:

>>>>institute at CSUMB.EDU 07/21/04 20:28 PM >>>
>>>>
>>>>
>Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at lists.umn.edu> writes:
>
>
>>[Richley]
>>I've heard it said so. To complicate matters, iirc, coatl may also mean "twin."
>>
>>
>
>Is your reference here based on the term "cuate" or "mecuate"?  The mecuate derives from that term used to make reference to the "twin" that emerges as the offspring of the agave, metl or teometl, which reproduces itself as a twin via its offspring.
>-----
>[Richley]
>I've been at home and am not actually sure the source (or even accuracy of my memory about it). It likely was a nonlinguistic source such as "Rain of Darts" and may, therefore, be inaccurate. I'm going up to the office today and will see if I can find it.
>
>
Just off the top of my head, mecuate come from two root words: "metl-"
and "-coatl," and yes, "coatl" does also mean "twin."  Sometimes snakes
are shown with two heads, such as when they are used as belts in
sculpture -- I beleive this is a further play on the word for "twin" and
"snake."  Surprisingly, the modern meaning for "coatl" has survived and
is in common use in Mexican Spanish as "cuate," but only as "twin,"
while the word for snake has evolved, at least in some regions, to
"coa," as in "macoa" or "acoa" (atl-coatl).

Robert


From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU  Thu Jul 22 19:45:46 2004
From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:45:46 -0600
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.134546.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

My copy of "Rain of Darts" has been loaned out, but I think that's where I got the idea. Good author, but I think he was unaware of the two different words.
Richley 

>>> robert at COATLI.COM 07/22 1:14 PM >>>
Richley Crapo wrote:

>>>>institute at CSUMB.EDU 07/21/04 20:28 PM >>>
>>>>
>>>>
>Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at lists.umn.edu> writes:
>
>
>>[Richley]
>>I've heard it said so. To complicate matters, iirc, coatl may also mean "twin."
>>
>>
>
>Is your reference here based on the term "cuate" or "mecuate"?  The mecuate derives from that term used to make reference to the "twin" that emerges as the offspring of the agave, metl or teometl, which reproduces itself as a twin via its offspring.
>-----
>[Richley]
>I've been at home and am not actually sure the source (or even accuracy of my memory about it). It likely was a nonlinguistic source such as "Rain of Darts" and may, therefore, be inaccurate. I'm going up to the office today and will see if I can find it.
>
>
Just off the top of my head, mecuate come from two root words: "metl-"
and "-coatl," and yes, "coatl" does also mean "twin."  Sometimes snakes
are shown with two heads, such as when they are used as belts in
sculpture -- I beleive this is a further play on the word for "twin" and
"snake."  Surprisingly, the modern meaning for "coatl" has survived and
is in common use in Mexican Spanish as "cuate," but only as "twin,"
while the word for snake has evolved, at least in some regions, to
"coa," as in "macoa" or "acoa" (atl-coatl).

Robert


From ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX  Thu Jul 22 21:43:25 2004
From: ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rita=20Monta=FFfffff1o?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:43:25 -0500
Subject: Consulta
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.164325.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Hola a todos los miembros de la lista. Me presento. Soy Maestra en Ciencia  Pol?tica, investigo sobre la Vara de Mando que se utiliza en la ceremonia de transmisi?n del poder de las autoridades civiles en los gobiernos tradicionales ind?genas. Necesito saber el significado del "Bast?n de Xipe" (Con nudos blancos y rojos) y el del "Bast?n de Venus" que aparece en los C?dices Mixtecos. Agradecer? much?simo sus comentarios.  No se c?mo se dice en Ingl?s "Vara de Mando".
Hi. I studied Political Science, I've got a Master Degree. Now I'm working about an object wich is also a very important symbol the  "Vara de Mando" (I don't know it's name in English). On january 1st. the old civil traditional authorities give it to the new authorities as a symbol of the power they have gotten. I need to kow the meaning of the Bast?n de Xipe and the Bast?n of Venus wich are in the Mixtec Codex. I'll aprecciate all  your coments, and opinions. Thank You. Rita.



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Net: La mejor conexi?n a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes.
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From cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jul 23 00:53:38 2004
From: cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET (Roland Trevino)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:53:38 -0700
Subject: Nahual vs Nahualli
Message-ID: <THU.22.JUL.2004.175338.0700.CLOUDJAGUAR@EARTHLINK.NET>

 Can these words be used interchangeably?  I have seen them used so and i
wondered if this was correct.  From the dictionaries that i have it seems
that Nahual refers to the animal companion or twin and Nahualli means
"sorcerer or warlock."  I know that Nahual derives from the word Nahualli
but are their meanings really interchangeable or is this incorrect usage.
Also, is the word Nagual completely incorrect or merely a barstardization of
Nahual?

~Roland


From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU  Fri Jul 23 15:02:59 2004
From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:02:59 -0500
Subject: Nahual vs Nahualli
In-Reply-To: <000601c4704f$7f19efb0$17c9b73f@rolandcrmw4dhe>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.100259.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Roland,

Good question and one possibly with an answer.  But, the question, as I
see it, is whether is it Nahualeh or Nahualli, that is "one who possesses
nahual (nahual + eh)" or "a thing that is nahual (nahual + tli)".  I'm
otherwise occupied, but I have pending to consult Lopez Austin _El Cuerpo
Humano_ and Andrews & Hassig, _Treatise of Ruiz de Alarcon_ to straighten
myself out on this and would recommend those sources to you.  best, Mark
Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From n8upb at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jul 23 16:53:27 2004
From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:53:27 -0700
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
In-Reply-To: <s0ffc520.061@hass.usu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.095327.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

In Texas where I am from, the Nahuatl langauge was spoken and I heard "Mecate," as oppose to "Mecuahte," meaning "A Rope," of course a "rope,' does in a way resemble a "Snake."

I am from the Rio Grande Valley of Texas, and I know that some type of Nahuat-l was spoken there, and finally it is no longer a language there...Some of the youth that I remember, *I am 60 years young* Spoke what was "Calo," even that is gone... Time flies as you grow old...

Hasta la proxima.......


---------------------------------
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Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
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From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU  Fri Jul 23 19:52:45 2004
From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:52:45 -0500
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
In-Reply-To: <20040723165327.3669.qmail@web40811.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.145245.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

mecatl is the word for 'rope' in nahuatl -> Sp. mecate.



On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, DARKHORSE wrote:

> In Texas where I am from, the Nahuatl langauge was spoken and I heard "Mecate," as oppose to "Mecuahte," meaning "A Rope," of course a "rope,' does in a way resemble a "Snake."
>
> I am from the Rio Grande Valley of Texas, and I know that some type of Nahuat-l was spoken there, and finally it is no longer a language there...Some of the youth that I remember, *I am 60 years young* Spoke what was "Calo," even that is gone... Time flies as you grow old...
>
> Hasta la proxima.......
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!

"...and cicadas sing
a rare and different tune..."

R. Hunter


From cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jul 23 20:02:30 2004
From: cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET (Roland Trevino)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:02:30 -0700
Subject: RE    Re: Quetzalcoatl
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.130230.0700.CLOUDJAGUAR@EARTHLINK.NET>

Thank you all for your informative responses re the Quetzalcoatl and
Nahualli question.  This is a fascinating language and this list great.  I
am still unclear as to whether an alternate Meaning for Quetzalcoatl is:
PRECIOUS SERPENT

1) Plumed Serpent
2) Quetzal Serpent
3) Precious Twin

What about:
1) Precious Serpent
2) Quetzal / Plumed Twin ??
3) or others.

~Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Mccafferty" <mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU>
To: <NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: Quetzalcoatl


> mecatl is the word for 'rope' in nahuatl -> Sp. mecate.
>
>
>
> On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, DARKHORSE wrote:
>
> > In Texas where I am from, the Nahuatl langauge was spoken and I heard
"Mecate," as oppose to "Mecuahte," meaning "A Rope," of course a "rope,'
does in a way resemble a "Snake."
> >
> > I am from the Rio Grande Valley of Texas, and I know that some type of
Nahuat-l was spoken there, and finally it is no longer a language
there...Some of the youth that I remember, *I am 60 years young* Spoke what
was "Calo," even that is gone... Time flies as you grow old...
> >
> > Hasta la proxima.......
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
>
> "...and cicadas sing
> a rare and different tune..."
>
> R. Hunter
>


From mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX  Fri Jul 23 21:05:45 2004
From: mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX (Mario Marquez)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:05:45 -0500
Subject: About Gary Jenning's Aztec
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f7aeb07c1de343b9aca003953e078.7c1deeb@csumb.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.23.JUL.2004.160545.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

He tenido la oportunidad de leer "Azteca" y "Oto?o Azteca" de Gary
Jennings. Sin embargo he tenido oportunidad de leer tambi?n "El Viajero"
donde se narra la vida de Marco Polo en las tierras del Kan Kubilai.

Al menos estas obras de Jennings tienen una fuerte carga sobre
sexualidad mostrada de manera abierta, pero las obras no deber?a
juzgarse solo por esta caracter?sticas. El Escritor ha realizado un
esfuerzo notable en la recreaci?n del mundo Mexica, -justo en el tiempo
de la llegada espa?ola- como tambien del periodo colonial - con el libro
de "Oto?o Azteca"-

La investigaci?n del escritor est? avocada a lugares, idiomas,
costumbres, ritos, politica, sociedad, cultura. Es una obra, ?sta de
"Azteca" muy completa y me parece que es recomendable para todo
interesado en la cultura Nahuatl.

Finalmente, solo puedo comentar que es FICCION. Han sido recurrentes
estas opiniones entre amigos que han le?do el libro, y estan muy en
desacuerdo sobre la manera en que Gary da personalidad a cada Car?cter.
Pero una vez m?s, es su PROPIA creaci?n y versi?n.

Saludos,

Mario Marquez


-----Mensaje original-----
De: Nahua language and culture discussion
[mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] En nombre de Archaeology Institute
Enviado el: Mi?rcoles, 21 de Julio de 2004 09:24 p.m.
Para: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Asunto: Re: Nahuatl Fiction / ficcion Nahuatl

Nahua language and culture discussion <NAHUAT-L at lists.umn.edu> writes:
>I second Frances' view. I actually read the whole thong as  well as
>several others by Jennings. What most appalled me was Jennings'
>distortion of the puritanical Aztecs to fit his formula writing-- sex
>in all combinations of  numbers, genders, and species-- he does the
>same thing to Marco Polo's China.

Dear Bernard Ortiz de Montellano,

        I think that the reality is that the most "puritanical" of
peoples are also capable of the most perverse acts where sex, morality,
and politics are concerned.  Despite the early "puritanical" bent of the
early colonial Americans, rape, pillage,
plunder, murder, mutilation, and a whole host of less than puritanical
acts and actions were inflicted on Native America, and other Americans
deemed worthy of the same.  My interest in Jennings does not center on
the question of sex, or any
puritanical leanings that any of us might hold dear, but rather with the
ability of Jennings to "create" the Mexica world from the shreds and
patches of so many works that often fall short.

Best Regards,

Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director
Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization
Social and Behavioral Sciences
California State University Monterey Bay
100 Campus Center
Seaside, California 93955-8001

Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu
Voice: 831-582-3760
Fax: 831-582-3566
http://archaeology.csumb.edu
http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/





Confidentiality Notice:  The information contained in this e-mail
message is sender-privileged and confidential information.  It is
intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above.  If
you are not the intended recipient, you are
notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage
or use of this communication is prohibited.  If you received this
communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail,
attaching the original message, and
delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which
your computer is connected.

Thank you.


From n8upb at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jul 24 15:21:14 2004
From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:21:14 -0700
Subject: About Gary Jenning's Aztec
In-Reply-To: <005f01c470f8$d31278e0$6ffea8c0@MARIO>
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUL.2004.082114.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Well to me thsoe books are semi-fictional... Who really knows what really happened in those days of the Aztecan Kingdom, I sure would've loved to be there tho... Who knows maybe I was, I just recycled to another body....


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From chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Jul 24 16:18:18 2004
From: chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM (chelo dona)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:18:18 -0300
Subject: About Gary Jenning's Aztec
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUL.2004.131818.0300.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

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From ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX  Sun Jul 25 02:04:07 2004
From: ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rita=20Monta=FFfffff1o?=)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:04:07 -0500
Subject: About Gary Jenning's Aztec
In-Reply-To: <Sea1-F165ybHLCXdFPJ000134fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUL.2004.210407.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>




?Hola!

Interesantes comentarios, no s?lo sobre "Azteca", sino sobre el hecho de que una cultura retoma aspectos de otra que ya est? en decadencia o pr?cticamente desaparecida y, adem?s algo que cada d?a es m?s evidente: todo conocimiento es relativo.

Por otra parte creo que la novela de Jennings est? muy bien fundamentada desde el punto de vista de los hechos hist?ricos y toma una perspectiva: la de los conquistados. Pienso que, aunque est?  muy bien escrita, sin tanta escena de tipo sexual, no hubiera tenido el mismo ?xito. Porque, a fin de cuentas, si quiero aprender historia, estudio historia.

El mundo retratado en Azteca no est? del todo perdido, todav?a hay muchos pueblos ind?genas que comparten la cosmovisi?n de... no recuerdo su nombre ?nube...? Saludos. Rita.







chelo dona <chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
De acuerdo conque "Azteca" no es un tratado ni un ensayo, ni una monograf?a; es una novela.

Que te parecer?a si un mesopotamico de antes de Cristo hubiese llevado los nombres de los dioses  Ishtar y Marduk a un drama cuasi cotidiano, y le diera un toque nacionalista - pero enfocado en otro pueblo?

Si no lo hubiera hecho, los nombres de Ester y Mardoqueo probablemente no hubieran existido mas alla de esos tiempos, (creo incluso que Mardoqueo es Mordecai). (Biblia - Libro de ester)

Es un pecado que el Ut Napishtim de la historia sumeria hallada en la biblioteca de Ninive se halla bautizado Noe en una recreacion posterior, que Ea haya sido Dios, etc? Es un error que Shakespeare halla creado "sus" personajes italianos con toda la belleza, todos los aciertos... y todas las imprecisiones que vemos en sus obras? Cu?nto de lo que consideramos verdadero - y hacemos "oficial" - no surge de imprecisiones, errores, ficciones... que forman parte de lo aceptado por quienes nos educaron? (hey, Galileo...)

Jennings reune y procesa gran cantidad de informacion en sus obras, y es lo bastante serio para elaborarla muy bien, reconstruyendo - coincido - una muy v?vida y colorida versi?n de lo que pudo ser el mundo mexica. Su atrevimiento al retratar escenas sexuales "bizarras" va paralelo con el de rescatar un mundo que fue exterminado porque no entraba en la cabeza de gente como Zum?rraga... Yo ya s? m?s o menos c?mo mam? y pap? me hicieron. No s? c?mo creer?a Zum?rraga que fue concebido, pero apuesto a considerar material comunicable e interesante todo lo que sucede, todo lo que es posible.

I'm sorry; seguire leyendo y recomendando la Biblia, Shakespeare... y Jennings y todo lo que considere interesante.


Saludos,

Marcelo




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From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jul 25 02:40:14 2004
From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 19:40:14 -0700
Subject: Nahual vs Nahualli
In-Reply-To: <000601c4704f$7f19efb0$17c9b73f@rolandcrmw4dhe>
Message-ID: <SAT.24.JUL.2004.194014.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Here's something Chimalpahin said about nahuale(s).  (Memorial de Colhuacan, 43v-44v)

ynic tecuannnahualleque quiyauhnahualleque catca oquincuillique, aocmo huel tecuanime mocuepque, ca ye occenca yehuantin yn tecuanahualleque yn quiyauhnahualleque yn chichimeca...

Rafael Tena translates it to mean that the Olmecs lost the capacity to turn into animals and other forces of nature; and that the Chichimecs took that power.  It seems in this case that nahualleque could be sorcercers, in the sense that they have the power to turn into beasts.
-Richard

Roland Trevino <cloud_jaguar at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
Can these words be used interchangeably? I have seen them used so and i
wondered if this was correct. From the dictionaries that i have it seems
that Nahual refers to the animal companion or twin and Nahualli means
"sorcerer or warlock." I know that Nahual derives from the word Nahualli
but are their meanings really interchangeable or is this incorrect usage.
Also, is the word Nagual completely incorrect or merely a barstardization of
Nahual?

~Roland





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From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU  Sun Jul 25 07:38:42 2004
From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:38:42 -0500
Subject: Nahual vs Nahualli
In-Reply-To: <20040725024014.69930.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUL.2004.023842.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Richard,

That's a really useful citation and I wonder if you could give the full
bibliographic reference because its not coming up through the search
engine.  I also don't find the corresponding passage in Schroeder and
Anderson's Codex Chimalpahin vol. 1-2 so I assume this is a different
Chimalpahin text?  Meanwhile, is "oquincuillique" spelled correctly, or is
it "oquincuililique"?  And fyi, both Sahagun (FC) and Olmos (Tratado de
Hechicerias y Sortilegios) use "nahualli."    best, Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM  Sun Jul 25 15:08:33 2004
From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:08:33 -0700
Subject: Nahual vs Nahualli
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1040725022833.21540A-100000@lear.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUL.2004.080833.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Hi,
The book were the reference to nahualleque is- Tena, Rafael ed. _Las Ocho Relaciones y el Memorial de Colhuacan_,Cien de M?xico (CONACULTA), M?xico, 1998.

There's another reference on p.210(vol.1).

In Tezoz?moc (Le?n, Adri?n, ed. _Cr?nica Mexic?yotl_, UNAM, M?xico, 1998), there?s a reference to nahualli, with a good description of his family and lifestyle, and it clearly refers to a sorcerer or witch (brujo) -p.191-

...auh in yehuatl in Ozomtzin yeuhctli yuh mitohua nahaulli catca moch quin notzaya in tocame in Petlazolcohuatl incohuatl ...

Do you know about the Inquisition process against Martin Ocelotl, who was a nahual?
Gonazalez Obreg?n, Luis, ed. _Procesos de Indios Idolatras y Hechiceros_, Archivo General de la Naci?n, M?xico, 1912.

About the word, oquincuillique, in my text it's spelled that way, not oquincuililique.
-Richard

Richard,

That's a really useful citation and I wonder if you could give the full
bibliographic reference because its not coming up through the search
engine. I also don't find the corresponding passage in Schroeder and
Anderson's Codex Chimalpahin vol. 1-2 so I assume this is a different
Chimalpahin text? Meanwhile, is "oquincuillique" spelled correctly, or is
it "oquincuililique"? And fyi, both Sahagun (FC) and Olmos (Tratado de
Hechicerias y Sortilegios) use "nahualli." best, Mark Morris



















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.



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From cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Jul 25 15:50:48 2004
From: cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET (Joanna M. Sanchez)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:50:48 -0400
Subject: Nahual vs Nahualli
Message-ID: <SUN.25.JUL.2004.115048.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>



  Do you know about the Inquisition process against Martin Ocelotl, who was a nahual?  
  Gonazalez Obreg?n, Luis, ed. _Procesos de Indios Idolatras y Hechiceros_, Archivo General de la Naci?n, M?xico, 1912.

  I found Gruzinski's discussion of Ocelotl and Andres Mixcoatl rather interesting:
   Man-Gods in the Mexican Highlands...  Stanford 1989
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From juan at PAPAQUI.COM  Wed Jul 28 00:04:04 2004
From: juan at PAPAQUI.COM (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ing._Juan_Manuel_Chavar=EDa?=)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:04:04 -0500
Subject: Quetzalcoatl
In-Reply-To: <4100122B.7080206@coatli.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.27.JUL.2004.190404.0500.>

        Cuate no es precisamente "gemelo" o "twin"; el termino se utiliza para dos
ni?os nacidos en el mismo parto, pero no identicos, incluso pueden ser de
distinto sexo.

        Cuate tambien se utiliza para designar a un amigo...

-----Mensaje original-----
De: Nahua language and culture discussion
[mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU]En nombre de robert barkaloff
Enviado el: Jueves, 22 de Julio de 2004 02:15 p.m.
Para: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Asunto: Re: Quetzalcoatl


Just off the top of my head, mecuate come from two root words: "metl-"
and "-coatl," and yes, "coatl" does also mean "twin."  Sometimes snakes
are shown with two heads, such as when they are used as belts in
sculpture -- I beleive this is a further play on the word for "twin" and
"snake."  Surprisingly, the modern meaning for "coatl" has survived and
is in common use in Mexican Spanish as "cuate," but only as "twin,"
while the word for snake has evolved, at least in some regions, to
"coa," as in "macoa" or "acoa" (atl-coatl).

Robert


From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jul 28 04:11:18 2004
From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:11:18 -0400
Subject: imitations of Nahuatl place names
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.001118.0400.>

I have more experience with art history than Nahuatl 
language, and have a question about a European
 imitation of a Nahuatl glyph. I have been working on 
an interpretation of the triptych in the Museo del Prado 
known as The Garden of Earthly Delights/El Jard?n de
 las Delicias, and have identified a series of imitations 
of Nahuatl glyphs that appear to place the date of the 
triptych in 1528, and likely no later since once news of 
Cabeza de Vaca's shipwreck got back to Spain, Florida 
would likely not have been represented by a swimming 
pool. (How this relates to old inventories and a 
description by Jos? de Sig?enza is a long story, but the 
dates indicate the triptych is not by Hieronymus Bosch.)
 In the first attached picture, I have matched details from 
the triptych to details from some facsimile drawings of 
the Codex Mendoza.

My question concerns what seems to be an imitation
 of a place name from the Vienna Codex (since it was 
apparently in Europe), shown in the second attached 
picture. It is well known that a painting by Salvador Dal? 
imitates the triptych, but it has not been noted that Dal? 
turned the glyph from the triptych into a glyph for 
Chapultepec, with a cricket. Dal? might have seen the 
Chapultepec glyph anywhere, but I have illustrated an 
example from the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca because 
like the one in the Vienna Codex and the one in the 
triptych, it shows the place as though it were looking 
at someone or something. But what does the right-hand 
part of the picture in the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca 
mean? Does it show the Chichimeca staying at 
Chapultepec? I wonder if I am oversimplifying Dal??s 
translation, and/or the place name in The Garden of 
Earthly Delights/El Jard?n de las Delicias.

I have saved both attachments as small GIF files with 
fewer pixels per inch for e-mail. In case they are 
impossible to read, the contents of the first are some 
details from The Garden of Earthly Delights/El Jard?n 
de las Delicias matched with glyphs for 1-acatl to 
10-tecpatl from the Codex Mendoza, and the contents 
of the second are details from the Vienna Codex, the 
Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca, and The Garden of 
Earthly Delights/El Jard?n de las Delicias, and 
Salvador Dal??s El Gran Masturbador (1929). If 
anyone is interested in the question but finds that 
the e-mail attachments are not working, I can send 
paper copies by regular mail. 

Thank you for your attention to this somewhat obscure 
question. I hope the 1-acatl to 10-tecpatl chronology 
is interesting without long explanations but am working 
on a book that will attempt to decode as much of the 
picture as possible. 

Susan Fargo Gilchrist


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From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM  Wed Jul 28 05:19:35 2004
From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:19:35 +0100
Subject: imitations of Nahuatl place names
In-Reply-To: <185260-22004732841118654@M2W070.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.061935.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

--- "sfargo at earthlink.net" <sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
> I have more experience with art history than Nahuatl
> language, and have a question about a European
> imitation of a Nahuatl glyph. I have been working on
> an interpretation of the triptych in the Museo del Prado
> known as The Garden of Earthly Delights/El Jard?n de
> las Delicias, ...

Salvador Dali and Hieronymus Bosch painted many strange surrealistic
images. Could the resemblance to Nahuatl glyphs be accidental?


From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jul 28 07:29:14 2004
From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 03:29:14 -0400
Subject: imitations of Nahuatl place names
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.032914.0400.>

If it does include the glyphs it isn?t by Hieronymus Bosch 
since he died in 1516. Interpreting Salvador Dal??s imitations 
of Bosch pictures (in this case of a Bosch imitation) is 
complicated because Dal? claimed he was following what 
he called the Paranoiac Critical Method, but I think some of 
his observations were acute even when he pretended they 
were paranoid. There are several other Dal? paintings that 
relate to The Garden of Earthly Delights/El Jard?n de las 
Delicias and they?re all interesting for one reason or another. 
My working assumption is that he thought he was illustrating 
something important. I just wonder if he knew more about 
Nahuatl glyphs than I do. 

For the series of ten date signs, it seems as though the 
series is too long to be an accident, even though some
 of them are obscure. There?s also a lot of supporting detail 
once it?s assumed that the picture is from 1528. One example 
in Nahuatl is where 7-Calli is represented by a person living 
in a jar like Diogenes, so the jar is a house. The 7 comes 
from seven fingers (difficult to see in the small picture) 
silhouetted against the inside of the jar. Next to it is a bird 
with a human foot underneath, a surrealistic version of 
Cuauht?moc?s name glyph, and the person who seems to 
be missing some fingers could be Cort?s who lost the use 
of two fingers in the Noche Triste. All the dates make some 
kind of sense, for instance where 6-Tecpatl, when the 
Franciscans arrived, is the Garden of Eden.

One of the underlying ideas seems to be that reports from 
the New World sounded like fiction. I think this idea is 
actually illustrated since the two people in the cave in 
the lower right corner of the central panel (not in the 
details I sent), who probably represent Carlos I/Charles 
V and Juana I (dos reyes), can see all the way across 
to the left panel where a lion is eating a deer, which is 
a scene from Amadis, a few paragraphs from the 
beginning, where two kings see a lion eating a deer. 
Part of the reason it?s all so obscure is that the thousands 
of Biblical allusions Jos? de Siguenza saw are in a Jewish 
frame of reference, but it?s also that hieroglyphics 
apparently were seen as obscure. So asking about the 
Nahuatl glyphs is a little like asking Egyptologists what
 they think of the Hypnerotomachia Poliphili, except that 
it?s a little more serious than that, it?s full of real political 
cartoons and also is a pretty good poster for memorizing 
the sequence of events from 1519-1528. But it?s interesting 
to try to piece together what the person might have known. 
Susan Fargo Gilchrist


Original Message:
-----------------
From: ANTHONY APPLEYARD a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:19:35 +0100
To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Subject: Re: imitations of Nahuatl place names


--- "sfargo at earthlink.net" <sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
> I have more experience with art history than Nahuatl
> language, and have a question about a European
> imitation of a Nahuatl glyph. I have been working on
> an interpretation of the triptych in the Museo del Prado
> known as The Garden of Earthly Delights/El Jard?n de
> las Delicias, ...

Salvador Dali and Hieronymus Bosch painted many strange surrealistic
images. Could the resemblance to Nahuatl glyphs be accidental?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU  Wed Jul 28 19:50:28 2004
From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:50:28 -0600
Subject: Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.135028.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I will be publishing an English translation of a sixteenth century Aztec history (relatively) soon and I have a major decision to make about the way I present the Nahuatl text. My original intent was to present the Nahuatl text in the two-colum (Nahuatl-English) format with the original spelling and punctuation, so that these features of the original manuscript would be available for study (for such purposes as identifying provenance and related things). Somewhere along the line, I let myself be convinced by a reviewer that regularizing the spelling to a modern orthography would make the text more useful to a broader range of students, and I did that. Now, I'm having second thoughts, particularly since the most recent reviewer has reiterated my original thinking and strongly recommended restoring the original spelling and punctuation. Since this was my original intent, I'd lean towards following that advice, but since Nahuatl research is *not* my primary area of expertise, I'd really like to hear what those of you who work in the area believe to be the better approach: a straight transcription of the original text or a modernized orthography for the Nahuatl column?

Richley Crapo 


From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM  Wed Jul 28 19:57:20 2004
From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:57:20 +0100
Subject: Opinions Solicited
In-Reply-To: <s107af40.064@hass.usu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.205720.0100.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

--- Richley Crapo <RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU> wrote:
> I will be publishing an English translation of a sixteenth century
> Aztec history (relatively) soon and I have a major decision to make
> about the way I present the Nahuatl text. My original intent was to
> present the Nahuatl text in the two-colum (Nahuatl-English) format
> with the original spelling and punctuation, ...

Or have 3 colums: English, original Nahuatl, normalized Nahuatl.


From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jul 28 20:19:53 2004
From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:19:53 -0700
Subject: adjectives & xoxopeualiztli
In-Reply-To: <20040728195720.11930.qmail@web86710.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.131953.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Ueli is an adjective, and it could mean -good or posible.  But I think it could also be read as -be good (to be good)  or be possible (to be possible).  Is this right?  If it is correct, could a "passive" marker, LO, somehow be used with it?  "uelilo" How flexible can certain adjectives be read as "to be" (ie, to be good), as if they had a connection to verbs?

Also, does xoxopeualiztli have a root?  Could it be -xoxo  (to cast a spell), and peua (to begin)?

Thanks,
Rich



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From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jul 28 20:26:55 2004
From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:26:55 -0700
Subject: Opinions Solicited
In-Reply-To: <20040728195720.11930.qmail@web86710.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.132655.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>



I like the idea of the three columns.  If this is not possible for some reason, then I would have the original Nahuatl since it?s an historical text, and perhaps an appendix with some samples of typical texts in the original form, and next to them the normalized Nahuatl version so students can compare and use a reference point.
-Rich




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From Spoole541 at AOL.COM  Wed Jul 28 21:26:31 2004
From: Spoole541 at AOL.COM (Stafford Poole)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:26:31 EDT
Subject: Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.172631.EDT.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Dear Rich:

Together with Louise Burkhart and Barry Sell I am preparing a Nahuatl text
and translation for the U of Oklahoma Press.  Our decision, and this applies to
the other three volumes in the series, is to reproduce the original text as
closely as possible, even down to punctuation.  If you are dealing with an
historic text, this seems the best solution, short of a facsimile or photographic
reproduction.

Good luck

Stafford Poole
Independent scholar


From ECOLING at AOL.COM  Wed Jul 28 21:55:21 2004
From: ECOLING at AOL.COM (Lloyd Anderson)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:55:21 EDT
Subject: Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.175521.EDT.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I'm *not* an active user of such materials,
but if you have a valid transcription of the original,
you might publish that, and have a few footnotes in the most
difficult cases, indicating what the regularized form would be.
Are your users going to be *learning* Nahuatl from this text,
or using it only if they already know Nahuatl fairly well?
In the latter case, they can make the corrections mentally themselves.
You could even have an intro section where you explain all of the
regular, semiregular, and sporadic and irregular differences between
our actual orthography and the corresponding "regularized".
That study would itself be valuable.  Might help to identify
distinct scribes, for example.  Or sections written by scribe
vs. copied from someone else. etc. etc.

Best wishes,
Lloyd Anderson
Ecological Linguistics


From Panoramix at AOL.COM  Wed Jul 28 22:17:45 2004
From: Panoramix at AOL.COM (Panoramix at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:17:45 EDT
Subject: Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.181745.EDT.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

modernized is easier.  the original Nahuatl wasn't written in latin script
anyway.  What you're referring to as the "original spelling" is only what a
particular friar or translater happened to write down at the time, anyway, and, as
you know, much of the spelling at the time wasn't even standardized.
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From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET  Wed Jul 28 22:53:47 2004
From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:53:47 -0400
Subject: adjectives & xoxopeualiztli
In-Reply-To: <20040728201953.67863.qmail@web90008.mail.scd.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.185347.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

on 7/28/04 4:19 PM, rick dosan at rich_photos at YAHOO.COM wrote:

> Ueli is an adjective, and it could mean -good or posible.

Huel(i) is a verb meaning 'to be able to.'

Huel has the sense "possible," and it also serves as an intensifier, meaning
'very.'

Hueliyoh is a derived noun meaning someone or something invested with the
quality of possibility or ability, hence someone or something powerful.


> How flexible can certain adjectives be read as "to be" (ie, to be good), as if
they had a connection to verbs?

There is a preterite-as-present verb cah that can express 'to be' overtly,
but for the most part in Nahuatl 'to be' is unexpressed (as in Russian, by
the way).

As for adjectives, a case can be made that prior to calquing on Spanish
constructions Nahuatl had no distinct class of adjectives.


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From Amapohuani at AOL.COM  Thu Jul 29 01:16:29 2004
From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:16:29 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Opinions=20Solicited?=
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.211629.EDT.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Richley and esteemed listeros:

I offer my very personal opinion in the hope that you will return to your
original intent or, if possible and even better, have a three-column approach.

As some of the fine folks who subscribe to this list already know, Louise
Burkhart and I are working on a four-volume NAHUATL THEATER set (U of Oklahoma
Press, first volume due in a few months). Except for spacing of alphabetical
characters (which is, in my view, debatable in any case) so that others may more
readily understand our translation choices and facilitate the use of
dictionaries and grammars, Louise and I have tried to retain the original spacing,
characters, letter size ('case' seems quite an iffy term to use), varying
spellings, etc., of the original texts.

Why?

Very simply because we aim to provide as much as humanly possible, within the
limits imposed by our own strengths and weaknesses in understanding early
Nahuatl and the pluses and minuses of modern printing and typography, the
specifically and wonderfully NAHUA character of the texs.

Our entire four-volume NAHUATL THEATER set is dedicated to a true visionary
in the study of early Nahuas and Nahuatl, Fernando Horcasitas, whose EL TEATRO
NAHUATL   (1974) continues to be an inspiring example of pioneering
scholarship. Nonetheless, his versions of the seven plays contained in full
transcription in EL TEATRO NAHUATL change sixteenth, seventeenth, eighteenth and
nineteenth century idiosyncratic Nahuatl into radically standaridzed de-Nahuatlized
late twentieth century versions of same. I started my work on volume one by going
to the Library of Congress with a version of one of the plays already copied
out, in digital form and hard copy, from EL TEATRO NAHUATL. I was only halfway
through checking his version against the original and I had made over two
thousand (yes, 2,000) changes. I finally decided it was best to simply make new
transcriptions, then go through the exhaustive process of constantly comparing
and correcting them -- with Louise's invaluable help and advice -- rather than
try to 'fix up' the plays that some seemed considered 'good enough' [to be
honest, this is my feeling but perhaps I am wrong here].

All the 'bothersome' non-standardized features of actual early Nahuatl texts
are really -- IMHO -- clues to the cognitive and emotive landscapes of their
authors, betraying in their almost infinite variety not only a different way of
handling European-style written expresson but also something more than a
negative 'difference' from the original model, namely something positive,
something that was in and of itself a specifically Nahua way of expressing oneself in
early Nahuatl. Just in the area of historical linguistics alone (not a small
consideration among the few people actively working to publish such texts) a
reliably suggestive evocation of the original is justified.

I do not want anyone to take the above to imply a mean-spirited and
contemptuous way of looking at others who do things differently. You yourself suggested
the best of all possible worlds: original Nahuatl (as best as can be done), a
standardized Nahuatl version of the original (again, as best as can be done -
there is no single one 'correct' way to do it so one again has to make
certain choices and not make others), and an English translation.

I wish you the very best in your efforts. I strongly feel that you have been
given good advice, but your gut instincts are right too. Thank you bringing up
this issue on nahuat-l.

Ye ixquich.
Barry D. Sell

In a message dated 7/28/04 12:51:22 PM, RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU writes:


> I will be publishing an English translation of a sixteenth century Aztec
> history (relatively) soon and I have a major decision to make about the way I
> present the Nahuatl text. My original intent was to present the Nahuatl text
> in the two-colum (Nahuatl-English) format with the original spelling and
> punctuation, so that these features of the original manuscript would be available
> for study (for such purposes as identifying provenance and related things).
> Somewhere along the line, I let myself be convinced by a reviewer that
> regularizing the spelling to a modern orthography would make the text more useful to
> a broader range of students, and I did that. Now, I'm having second
> thoughts, particularly since the most recent reviewer has reiterated my original
> thinking and strongly recommended restoring the original spelling and
> punctuation. Since this was my original intent, I'd lean towards following that advice,
> but since Nahuatl research is *not* my primary area of expertise, I'd really
> like to hear what those of you who work in the area believe to be the better
> approach: a straight transcription of the original text or a modernized
> orthography for the Nahuatl column?
>
> Richley Crapo
>

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From juan at PAPAQUI.COM  Thu Jul 29 02:07:39 2004
From: juan at PAPAQUI.COM (=?us-ascii?Q?Ing._Juan_Manuel_Chavaria?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:07:39 -0500
Subject: =?us-ascii?Q?RE:_______Opinions_Solicited?=
In-Reply-To: <c.2f1b3e91.2e39a9ed@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.210739.0500.>


    I think it's better using original spelling and punctuation than a
"regularized" one, because, Which "regularization" are you going to use???
One for english readers? or one for spanish readers? or even one for
norwegian readers?


    I will be publishing an English translation of a sixteenth century Aztec
history (relatively) soon and I have a major decision to make about the way
I present the Nahuatl text. My original intent was to present the Nahuatl
text in the two-colum (Nahuatl-English) format with the original spelling
and punctuation, so that these features of the original manuscript would be
available for study (for such purposes as identifying provenance and related
things). Somewhere along the line, I let myself be convinced by a reviewer
that regularizing the spelling to a modern orthography would make the text
more useful to a broader range of students, and I did that. Now, I'm having
second thoughts, particularly since the most recent reviewer has reiterated
my original thinking and strongly recommended restoring the original
spelling and punctuation. Since this was my original intent, I'd lean
towards following that advice, but since Nahuatl research is *not* my
primary area of expertise, I'd really like to hear what those of you who
work in the area believe to be the better approach: a straight transcription
of the original text or a modernized orthography for the Nahuatl column?

    Richley Crapo



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From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU  Thu Jul 29 02:36:51 2004
From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:36:51 -0600
Subject: Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.203651.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Thanks for the input.
Richley 

>>> rich_photos at YAHOO.COM 07/28/04 14:27 PM >>>


I like the idea of the three columns.  If this is not possible for some reason, then I would have the original Nahuatl since it?s an historical text, and perhaps an appendix with some samples of typical texts in the original form, and next to them the normalized Nahuatl version so students can compare and use a reference point.
-Rich




---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!


From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU  Thu Jul 29 02:39:04 2004
From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:39:04 -0600
Subject: Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.203904.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Thanks for the ideas.
Richley 

>>> ECOLING at AOL.COM 07/28/04 15:56 PM >>>
I'm *not* an active user of such materials,
but if you have a valid transcription of the original,
you might publish that, and have a few footnotes in the most
difficult cases, indicating what the regularized form would be.
Are your users going to be *learning* Nahuatl from this text,
or using it only if they already know Nahuatl fairly well?
In the latter case, they can make the corrections mentally themselves.
You could even have an intro section where you explain all of the
regular, semiregular, and sporadic and irregular differences between
our actual orthography and the corresponding "regularized".
That study would itself be valuable.  Might help to identify
distinct scribes, for example.  Or sections written by scribe
vs. copied from someone else. etc. etc.

Best wishes,
Lloyd Anderson
Ecological Linguistics


From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU  Thu Jul 29 02:39:39 2004
From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:39:39 -0600
Subject: Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.203939.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I appreciate your input.
Richley 

>>> Panoramix at AOL.COM 07/28/04 16:28 PM >>>
modernized is easier.  the original Nahuatl wasn't written in latin script
anyway.  What you're referring to as the "original spelling" is only what a
particular friar or translater happened to write down at the time, anyway, and, as
you know, much of the spelling at the time wasn't even standardized.


From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU  Thu Jul 29 02:47:08 2004
From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:47:08 -0600
Subject: * * * Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.204708.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I appreciate your insights. Since in my original transcription I worked to be true to the spelling and punctuation of the text and the majority here seem also to prefer that, I may revert to it unless my publisher thinks a three-column text is feasible.
Richley 

>>> Amapohuani at AOL.COM 07/28/04 19:17 PM >>>
Richley and esteemed listeros:

I offer my very personal opinion in the hope that you will return to your
original intent or, if possible and even better, have a three-column approach.

As some of the fine folks who subscribe to this list already know, Louise
Burkhart and I are working on a four-volume NAHUATL THEATER set (U of Oklahoma
Press, first volume due in a few months). Except for spacing of alphabetical
characters (which is, in my view, debatable in any case) so that others may more
readily understand our translation choices and facilitate the use of
dictionaries and grammars, Louise and I have tried to retain the original spacing,
characters, letter size ('case' seems quite an iffy term to use), varying
spellings, etc., of the original texts.

Why?

Very simply because we aim to provide as much as humanly possible, within the
limits imposed by our own strengths and weaknesses in understanding early
Nahuatl and the pluses and minuses of modern printing and typography, the
specifically and wonderfully NAHUA character of the texs.

Our entire four-volume NAHUATL THEATER set is dedicated to a true visionary
in the study of early Nahuas and Nahuatl, Fernando Horcasitas, whose EL TEATRO
NAHUATL   (1974) continues to be an inspiring example of pioneering
scholarship. Nonetheless, his versions of the seven plays contained in full
transcription in EL TEATRO NAHUATL change sixteenth, seventeenth, eighteenth and
nineteenth century idiosyncraic Nahuatl into radically standaridzed de-Nahuatlized
late twentieth century versions of same. I started my work on volume one by going
to the Library of Congress with a version of one of the plays already copied
out, in digital form and hard copy, from EL TEATRO NAHUATL. I was only halfway
through checking his version against the original and I had made over two
thousand (yes, 2,000) changes. I finally decided it was best to simply make new
transcriptions, then go through the exhaustive process of constantly comparing
and correcting them -- with Louise's invaluable help and advice -- rather than
try to 'fix up' the plays that some seemed considered 'good enough' [to be
honest, this is my feeling but perhaps I am wrong here].

All the 'bothersome' non-standardized features of actual early Nahuatl texts
are really -- IMHO -- clues to the cognitive and emotive landscapes of their
authors, betraying in their almost infinite variety not only a different way of
handling European-style written expresson but also something more than a
negative 'difference' from the original model, namely something positive,
something that was in and of itself a specifically Nahua way of expressing oneself in
early Nahuatl. Just in the area of historical linguistics alone (not a small
consideration among the few people actively working to publish such texts) a
reliably suggestive evocation of the original is justified.

I do not want anyone to take the above to imply a mean-spirited and
contemptuous way of looking at others who do things differently. You yourself suggested
the best of all possible worlds: original Nahuatl (as best as can be done), a
standardized Nahuatl version of the original (again, as best as can be done -
there is no single one 'correct' way to do it so one again has to make
certain choices and not make others), and an English translation.

I wish you the very best in your efforts. I strongly feel that you have been
given good advice, but your gut instincts are right too. Thank you brnging up
this issue on nahuat-l.

Ye ixquich.
Barry D. Sell

In a message dated 7/28/04 12:51:22 PM, RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU writes:


> I will be publishing an English translation of a sixteenth century Aztec
> history (relatively) soon and I have a major decision to make about the way I
> present the Nahuatl text. My original intent was to present the Nahuatl text
> in the two-colum (Nahuatl-English) format with the original spelling and
> punctuation, so that these features of the original manuscript would be available
> for study (for such purposes as identifying provenance and related things).
> Somewhere along the line, I let myself be convinced by a reviewer that
> regularizing the spelling to a modern orthography would make the text more useful to
> a broader range of students, and I did that. Now, I'm having second
> thoughts, particularly since the most recent reviewer has reiterated my original
> thinking and strongly recommended restoring the original spelling and
> punctuation. Since this was my original intent, I'd lean towards following that advice,
> but since Nahuatl research is *not* my primary area of expertise, I'd really
> like to hear what those of you who work in the area believe to be the better
> approach: a straight transcription of the original text or a modernized
> orthography for the Nahuatl column?
>
> Richley Crapo
>


From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU  Thu Jul 29 02:51:18 2004
From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:51:18 -0600
Subject: Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.205118.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Thanks. Others have suggested that, and I'll certainly consider it.
Richley 

>>> a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM 07/28/04 13:57 PM >>>
--- Richley Crapo <RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU> wrote:
> I will be publishing an English translation of a sixteenth century
> Aztec history (relatively) soon and I have a major decision to make
> about the way I present the Nahuatl text. My original intent was to
> present the Nahuatl text in the two-colum (Nahuatl-English) format
> with the original spelling and punctuation, ...

Or have 3 colums: English, original Nahuatl, normalized Nahuatl.


From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU  Thu Jul 29 03:15:26 2004
From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:15:26 -0500
Subject: Opinions Solicited
In-Reply-To: <s10811d5.050@hass.usu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.221526.0500.MDMORRIS@INDIANA.EDU>

I, on the other hand, do not see the cause to publish a "near original"
transcription.  The transcription itself is a significant step away from
the original and a certain degree of analysis would be merited with it,
such as proper word separation and extension of abbreviations.  There is
something special about first-hand exposure to a text, but this is only
conveyed by the original or a facsimile; a transcription can't capture all
of the nuances.  Thank you very much Fran Kartunnen for glossing hueliyoh
etc. As for the other, my assumption is that xoxopehualiztli refers to
spring.

best,
Mark Morris

















~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La muerte tiene permiso a todo

MDM, PhD Candidate
Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.


From alfredina2001 at YAHOO.COM.MX  Thu Jul 29 03:12:34 2004
From: alfredina2001 at YAHOO.COM.MX (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alfredina=20Morales?=)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:12:34 -0500
Subject: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <1089910386.40f6b6720c32c@webmail.iu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.221234.0500.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

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From swood at DARKWING.UOREGON.EDU  Thu Jul 29 04:29:52 2004
From: swood at DARKWING.UOREGON.EDU (Stephanie Wood)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:29:52 -0700
Subject: Opinions Solicited
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1040728220745.27674A-100000@lear.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.28.JUL.2004.212952.0700.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

In a Nahuatl-language manuscript I am trying to transcribe and
translate, I have been toying with producing three transcriptions: a
literal transcription (preserving capitalization, word divisions,
punctuation, and original orthography for the sake of historical
linguistics), an analytic one (with more logical word separation and
lines numbered for referencing in notes), and a standardized one that
would have an alternative orthography that might help with electronic
searches (providing, for example, cihuatl, where the original might
have had civatl or the like).  Maybe this is overkill, but I can
envision some value in each type.

When I recently presented examples of these transcriptions at a
conference of humanities computing people, one person suggested
another alternative: lemmatizing the transcription and using the Text
Encoding Initiative to mark it up, with an eye to the future, when
more and more of what we write and read will be electronic.  Just
curious: is anyone on this list thinking along those lines?  Stephanie
Wood


From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU  Thu Jul 29 13:27:59 2004
From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:27:59 -0400
Subject: Opinions Solicited
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1040728220745.27674A-100000@lear.ucs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUL.2004.092759.0400.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

But Mark, a paleographic transcription (revealing to the extent
possible the nature of the original document) is also valuable because
it makes it easier to identify possible mistakes in the regularized
transcription and the translation. the point is that the regularized
transcription is often a result of some interpretation. and often there
are other possible interpretations. we have recently had discussions
about this very thing on the list. and remember those documents we
worked on at Indiana with Joe, we had long discussions/arguments about
the meaning of words or phrases precisely because there were different
possible interpretations of the orthography and even spacing (i.e. in
dios versus indios). so, i think Barry, Stafford, and Louise{s method
is the best both for the sake of historical linguistics and in order to
leave open the possibility for others to disagree with your
orthographic/semantic interpretations.
Galen


Quoting Mark David Morris <mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU>:

> I, on the other hand, do not see the cause to publish a "near
> original"
> transcription.  The transcription itself is a significant step away
> from
> the original and a certain degree of analysis would be merited with
> it,
> such as proper word separation and extension of abbreviations.  There
> is
> something special about first-hand exposure to a text, but this is
> only
> conveyed by the original or a facsimile; a transcription can't
> capture all
> of the nuances.  Thank you very much Fran Kartunnen for glossing
> hueliyoh
> etc. As for the other, my assumption is that xoxopehualiztli refers
> to
> spring.
>
> best,
> Mark Morris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~
>
> La muerte tiene permiso a todo
>
> MDM, PhD Candidate
> Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
>
>


From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU  Thu Jul 29 14:52:58 2004
From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:52:58 -0600
Subject: Opinions Solicited
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUL.2004.085258.0600.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

I appreciate that. I do have one question--about the limitations that this necessarily involves: Why would this be considered as something better to do than to simply publish a photographic copy of the original?
Richley 

>>> Spoole541 at AOL.COM 07/28/04 15:27 PM >>>
Dear Rich:

Together with Louise Burkhart and Barry Sell I am preparing a Nahuatl text
and translation for the U of Oklahoma Press.  Our decision, and this applies to
the other three volumes in the series, is to reproduce the original text as
closely as possible, even down to punctuation.  If you are dealing with an
historic text, this seems the best solution, short of a facsimile or photographic
reproduction.

Good luck

Stafford Poole
Independent scholar


From Amapohuani at AOL.COM  Thu Jul 29 23:49:00 2004
From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:49:00 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Opinions=20Solicite?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?d?=
Message-ID: <THU.29.JUL.2004.194900.EDT.NAHUATL@LISTS.UMN.EDU>

Galen and Mark:

I think Galen has made some good points. To give one instance out of many why 
retaining original distinctive features is critical: in volume one of NAHUATL 
THEATER I was faced with the difficulty of showing why I felt that THE THREE 
KINGS was in a different hand than SOULS AND TESTAMENTARY EXECUTORS and THE 
SACRIFICE OF ISAAC. In other words, why even though the three are bound together 
as mone manuscript at U of Michigan's Clements Library, they should not 
automatically be lumped together. After all, trying to compare and contrast hands 
is a very debatable process. Once a reliable transcription of the three plays 
was made (essentially Louise and I running through the text and transcriptions 
space by space, character by charcter a full three or four times) something 
became very obvious: there were orthographic peculiarities (or however either of 
you might want to characterize them) that were found only in SOULS and 
SACRIFICE but not in 3KINGS, and vice versa. These key distinctions would have been 
lost in a regularized/standardized version. Hence the value of trying as much 
as is possible to show those distinctions, peculiarities and 'errors' (under 
all the human and technical limitations we could enumerate) is, to my way of 
working and thinking, valuable and at times critical. Plus it helps (doesn't 
completely solve by any means) to show where one is taking one interpretative 
road and not another. 

Nonetheless I am very grateful for those scholars who take the Nahuatl much 
further away from the originals. Ideally one would have the opportunity to do 
what Andrews did in the Ruiz de Alarcon book, showing both the original 
orthography and his version. Of course, here again interpretation, reinterpretation, 
and errors in same are always lurking in the shadows. But there are so many 
practical restraints also that go far beyond scholarly considerations. Oh how I 
wish that the publisher of NAHUATL THEATER would suggest putting out an 
additional volume with clear photoreproductions of all the dramatic texts! I 
wouldn't hold my breath waiting, though.....

You both have made good points, so my hat is off to you both. 

Ye ixquich.
Barry

In a message dated 7/29/04 6:28:51 AM, brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU writes:


> But Mark, a paleographic transcription (revealing to the extent
> possible the nature of the original document) is also valuable because
> it makes it easier to identify possible mistakes in the regularized
> transcription and the translation. the point is that the regularized
> transcription is often a result of some interpretation. and often there
> are other possible interpretations. we have recently had discussions
> about this very thing on the list. and remember those documents we
> worked on at Indiana with Joe, we had long discussions/arguments about
> the meaning of words or phrases precisely because there were different
> possible interpretations of the orthography and even spacing (i.e. in
> dios versus indios). so, i think Barry, Stafford, and Louise{s method
> is the best both for the sake of historical linguistics and in order to
> leave open the possibility for others to disagree with your
> orthographic/semantic interpretations.
> Galen
> 
> 
> Quoting Mark David Morris <mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU>:
> 
> > I, on the other hand, do not see the cause to publish a "near
> > original"
> > transcription.? The transcription itself is a significant step away
> > from
> > the original and a certain degree of analysis would be merited with
> > it,
> > such as proper word separation and extension of abbreviations.? There
> > is
> > something special about first-hand exposure to a text, but this is
> > only
> > conveyed by the original or a facsimile; a transcription can't
> > capture all
> > of the nuances.? Thank you very much Fran Kartunnen for glossing
> > hueliyoh
> > etc. As for the other, my assumption is that xoxopehualiztli refers
> > to
> > spring.
> >
> > best,
> > Mark Morris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~
> >
> > La muerte tiene permiso a todo
> >
> > MDM, PhD Candidate
> > Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.
> >
> >
> 
> 

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