From susana at LOSRANCHEROS.ORG Wed Oct 6 12:29:08 2004 From: susana at LOSRANCHEROS.ORG (S. Moraleda) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 14:29:08 +0200 Subject: Wolf's dictionary Message-ID: Acabo de estar en Mexico, en el Instituto de Investigaciones Historicas de la UNAM (fui a comprar el libro de gramatica Nahuatl de Thelma Sullivan y el maravilloso libro de De Olmos) y vi en la vitrina un diccionario espanol-nahuatl escrito por un tal "Wolf". Serà que soy ignorante, pero nunca habia oido hablar de este senor. Alguien podria esclarecerme quien es y que opinan de su obra??? Gracias, Susana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From susana at LOSRANCHEROS.ORG Wed Oct 6 12:29:16 2004 From: susana at LOSRANCHEROS.ORG (S. Moraleda) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 14:29:16 +0200 Subject: Plaza de las 3 Culturas Message-ID: De casualidad alguien tendria la version en Nahuatl de la placa que esta en la Plaza de las 3 Culturas: "EL 13 DE AGOSTO DE 1521 HEROICAMENTE DEFENDIDO POR CUAUHTEMOC CAYO TLALTELOLCO EN PODER DE HERNAN CORTES NO FUE TRIUNFO NI DERROTA FUE EL DOLOROSO NACIMIENTO DEL PUEBLO MESTIZO QUE ES EL MEXICO DE HOY" Mil gracias. Susana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX Sun Oct 10 17:59:22 2004 From: dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX (David Wright) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 12:59:22 -0500 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: On September 26, after a few messages summing up Jane H. Hill's article "Proto-Uto-Aztecan: a community of cultivators in Central Mexico?" (American Anthropologist 103:4, 913-934), Richley Crapo asked "What's your assessment of how widely she's been accepted?" and didn't get much of a response, at least not on the list. I meant to write something then but didn't. I just found a file card with a message I sent to George Cowgill two years ago about Hill's proposal and thought I'd send it to the list, with a few clarifications. Here it is: Hill's case that the Uto-Aztecans spread form south to north looks very reasonable. I never liked Manrique's linguistic maps with the ethnic billiard balls forever knocking one another southward. Okham's razor cuts the movement of entire linguistic chains from one region to another right out of the picture. The big problem with Hill's paper, and the way it has been received by the scholarly community, lies in the vagueness of the geographic terminology, bouncing back and forth between "Mesoamerica" and "central Mexico", without defining the scope of "central Mexico". When Hill speaks of the initial Proto-Uto-Aztecan (PUA) expansion on p. 916, "north through western Mexico" is only slightly more specific. The best we get is that Corachol and Aztecan speakers descend from "the northwestern quadrant of the region" (p. 916 again); exactly what region she is quadrisecting is left up to the reader's imagination. If this "northwest quadrant" means any part of the Jalisco/Colima/Nayarit region, then I agree with Hill on the location of the Nahua/Cora/Huichol homeland, as I suggested in an article in Relaciones (no. 72, 1997) a few years ago. But on pp. 924-925, in the division "The Homeland of the Aztecans", Hill gets vague again, suggesting a Proto-Aztecan homeland "within the tropics" (a geographic referent that gives us only a northern limit, ignoring changes in altitude, rainfall and vegetation). >From there a Big Leap is taken, suggesting that Nahuas were resposible for Early Classic Teotihuacan art, with no more evidence than the presence of flower metaphors in Nahuatl language and Teotihuacan art (probably a human universal, certainly so in Mesoamerica), a quick invocation of Daken's and Wichmann's article on the origin of the word "cacao" (without mentioning that these authors [p. 69] make a cautious division between hard linguistic evidence and speculative interpretation in their paper), and a citation of a very brief Web article which attempts to give a Nahua phonetic reading of the Maya Ahau sign (a very small statistical sampling, leaving open the possibility of coincidence). Floral symbolism at Teotihuacan aside, the last two lines of reasoning for Nahuas at Teotihuacan can be classified as non sequitur fallacies, since Nahua linguistic influence in southeastern Mesoamerica wouldn't necessarily have originated at Teotihuacan, the biggest game in town, but certainly not the only one. Networks of commercial and cultural interaction united all regions of Mesoamerica (and beyond). I have no problem with Nahuas at Teotihuacan, but the city clearly emerged from a cultural substratum with deep roots in the central valleys of Mexico (the valley of Mexico plus bordering valleys all around), a region that can safely be called (on linguistic evidence, also taking into account material culture and historical traditions) the Proto-Otopamean homeland, with some other Otomanguean speakers on its southeastern margins. That the city was of pan-Mesoamerican significance and welcomed immigrants from several other regions (including Western Mexico) is evident, but I just don't see evidence of a major western influx before the Epiclassic. (I am, however, looking harder at the Preclassic/Protoclassic connections between the various regions of Western and Central Mexico, and am willing to accept an early and significant cultural exchange between these regions, which could well involve Proto-Nahuas.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU Sun Oct 10 22:18:54 2004 From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 16:18:54 -0600 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: Thanks for your comments. This is quite interesting. Richley >>> dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX 10/10/04 11:59 AM >>> On September 26, after a few messages summing up Jane H. Hill's article "Proto-Uto-Aztecan: a community of cultivators in Central Mexico?" (American Anthropologist 103:4, 913-934), Richley Crapo asked "What's your assessment of how widely she's been accepted?" and didn't get much of a response, at least not on the list. I meant to write something then but didn't. I just found a file card with a message I sent to George Cowgill two years ago about Hill's proposal and thought I'd send it to the list, with a few clarifications. Here it is: Hill's case that the Uto-Aztecans spread form south to north looks very reasonable. I never liked Manrique's linguistic maps with the ethnic billiard balls forever knocking one another southward. Okham's razor cuts the movement of entire linguistic chains from one region to another right out of the picture. The big problem with Hill's paper, and the way it has been received by the scholarly community, lies in the vagueness of the geographic terminology, bouncing back and forth between "Mesoamerica" and "central Mexico", without defining the scope of "central Mexico". When Hill speaks of the initial Proto-Uto-Aztecan (PUA) expansion on p. 916, "north through western Mexico" is only slightly more specific. The best we get is that Corachol and Aztecan speakers descend from "the northwestern quadrant of the region" (p. 916 again); exactly what region she is quadrisecting is left up to the reader's imagination. If this "northwest quadrant" means any part of the Jalisco/Colima/Nayarit region, then I agree with Hill on the location of the Nahua/Cora/Huichol homeland, as I sugested in an article in Relaciones (no. 72, 1997) a few years ago. But on pp. 924-925, in the division "The Homeland of the Aztecans", Hill gets vague again, suggesting a Proto-Aztecan homeland "within the tropics" (a geographic referent that gives us only a northern limit, ignoring changes in altitude, rainfall and vegetation). From there a Big Leap is taken, suggesting that Nahuas were resposible for Early Classic Teotihuacan art, with no more evidence than the presence of flower metaphors in Nahuatl language and Teotihuacan art (probably a human universal, certainly so in Mesoamerica), a quick invocation of Daken's and Wichmann's article on the origin of the word "cacao" (without mentioning that these authors [p. 69] make a cautious division between hard linguistic evidence and speculative interpretation in their paper), and a citation of a very brief Web article which attempts to give a Nahua phonetic reading of the Maya Ahau sign (a very small statistical sampling, leaving open the possibility of coincidence). Floral symbolism at Teotihuacan aside, the last two lines of reasoning for Nahuas at Teotihuacan can be classified as non sequitur fallacies, since Nahua linguistic influence in southeastern Mesoamerica wouldn't necessarily have originated at Teotihuacan, the biggest game in town, but certainly not the only one. Networks of commercial and cultural interaction united all regions of Mesoamerica (and beyond). I have no problem with Nahuas at Teotihuacan, but the city clearly emerged from a cultural substratum with deep roots in the central valleys of Mexico (the valley of Mexico plus bordering valleys all around), a region that can safely be called (on linguistic evidence, also taking into account material culture and historical traditions) the Proto-Otopamean homeland, with some other Otomanguean speakers on its southeastern margins. That the city was of pan-Mesoamerican significance and welcomed immigrants from several other regions (including Western Mexico) is evident, but I just don'tsee evidence of a major western influx before the Epiclassic. (I am, however, looking harder at the Preclassic/Protoclassic connections between the various regions of Western and Central Mexico, and am willing to accept an early and significant cultural exchange between these regions, which could well involve Proto-Nahuas.) From ECOLING at AOL.COM Mon Oct 11 00:59:27 2004 From: ECOLING at AOL.COM (Lloyd Anderson) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:59:27 EDT Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: Not sure whether the following has been mentioned in this thread (I haven't read every single message, I suspect). Terry Kaufman argues from his studies of loanwords that Teotihuacan had an elite from a hypothesized third branch of the Mixe-Zoquean family (that is, a branch separate from Mixean and from Zoquean), and that commoners were perhaps Totonacan. His studies yield a series of contour lines showing the largest numbers of loan words from this source near Teo, and progressively fewer as one moves out from there. That is of course not Nahua. Terry presented some of this material at a Dumbarton Oaks conference, which means it will be some time before that is in print. The data was at that time not yet displayed to make these contours visually obvious. Hopefully it will be before long. My earlier understanding of what justified a traditional view of UA as having migrated from the North to the South, dropping off a part of the population at points along the way, had been that the family tree had the largest number of deep branches in the north, and progressively shallower branches as one got closer to Cora-Huichol and to Nahua in the south. It is of course merely a traditional rule-of-thumb that our default conclusion should be an origin near where there are the largest number of such branches represented. Perhaps that reasoning can be overridden. Has that evidence been completely rewritten or somehow discounted? If we have evidence from particular loanwords on corn which seems to contradict that older framework, perhaps some clever person can figure out a new synthesis. (It is some time since I read Hill's paper on this subject, I'm hoping that someone will point m to a message or will produce a message which gives a good summary of the state of the arguments, what is clear now and what is not.) I much fear that there is a bias in investigations towards results which involve Nahua, simply because we have preservation of far more information about Nahua speakers and their language and culture than we do about others. Is that taken into account in any evaluations of probabilities or even plausibilities? Best wishes, Lloyd Anderson Ecological Linguistics From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Mon Oct 11 01:42:45 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:42:45 -0500 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland In-Reply-To: <65.35f38c23.2e9b34ef@aol.com> Message-ID: Dear List, Yes, this is interesting and I am not competent enough in the details to raise many hard substantive points about the matter. But, the first question that I ask myself is how did the PUA linguistic family get into the Americas and into Mesoamerica? If you take an expansive view of the Otomanguean family and affinitive branches, there is a general extension of these languages over central, southeastern and south central Mesoamerica from the Panuco River to Subtiaba. From there, it is easy to conclude there was an westward bound intrusion of UA (as Nahuatl) into the central and southern area (and in at least two major waves as Dakin and Wichann describe), fragmenting and altering the older Otomanguean languages spread through the region. If UA originated within the Mesoamerican cultural sphere, why would it present itself clearly as an irruption into a landscape of otherwise affinitive languages? I would still be inclined, hence, to view UA's arrival into western Mesoamerica a consequence of southern migrations. That does not discount the possibility, I believe, that a "Mesoamericanized" UA then returned north with agricultural cultivators. If anyone sees any big problems with this hypothesis, I would really like to hear about it since (barring a significant epiphany) this is what I will tell my students in winter survey course of Mesoamerican civilization. best, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX Mon Oct 11 17:04:21 2004 From: mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX (Mario Marquez) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:04:21 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sobre_don_Juan_y_uso_de__las_pir=E1mides?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Colegas, De todas las teorías posibles que han tratado de explicar el origen y función de las Pirámides en Mesoamérica, me ha sorprendido encontrar una explicación embebida en las páginas del Libro "El don del Aguila" escrito por Carlos Castaneda. Haciendo un repaso, puedo comentar que Carlos Castaneda es conocido por la edicion de varios libros orientados al estudio -en un inicio antropológico- de algunas hierbas psicotrópicas que han usado los indios Yaquis (del norte de México ) para alterar su consciencia y realizar algunas cosas que la gente común llama Brujería. El mayor brujo, llamado Juan Matus se convierte en algun momento en el mentor de Carlos. Este se hace su aprendiz y desde l970 está aprendiendo un conocimiento legado por milenios en la tradición oral de los pueblos de prehispánicos que tiene por función aprender todas las realidades que el ser humano puede alcanzar. Hago esta referencia, porque Carlos realiza una crónica de su aprendizaje. Y en esta crónica preguntó a Don Juan sobre el uso y función de las pirámides, a lo que Don Juan contesta que fueron lugares enfocados a desarrollar las habilidades psiquicas de los brujos precolombinos. Teotihuacan, Tula, Chichén Itza, Monte alban, solo son resquicios de monumentos creados para el incremento de estos "poderes". Los brujos de antaño se sentaban a concentrar su atención en puntos particulares de las pirámides logrando desconectarse del "mundo real" de manera que alteraban su visión y su concepción del mundo. Según don Juan, no solo en México se produjo este entrenamiento, sino que en todo el mundo. Parece que hubo una época en que estos "misterios" fueron enseñados en diferentes partes del mundo, logrando que las civilizaciones se desarrollaran al máximo. Don Juan no lo dice, pero quizá Pirámides como la de Giza tuvo como objetivo ayudar a los estudiantes de los misterios "herméticos" a desarrollar sus facultades psiquicas. Por otra parte hay monumentos majestuosos como en Stongehedge en Inglaterra donde posiblemente los Druidas hacían otro tanto. Podríamos quizá relacionar a miles de monumentos en todo el planeta con este objetivo; hacer que el iniciado centrara su atención plena para despertar sus facultades mentales, físicas y espirituales. El punto de mencionar esto, es conocer si alguien dentro de esta excelente lista de correos tiene información relacionada con lo que acabo de exponer. Si es así, sería muy interesante para mí el que la pudiera compartir. Saludos, Mario Márquez From tonantzn at CHORUS.NET Mon Oct 11 17:23:02 2004 From: tonantzn at CHORUS.NET (Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:23:02 -0500 Subject: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids Message-ID: Mario Marquez comments on Castañeda's hypothesis of the function and origin of pyramids in Mesoamerica (as outlined below) does not take into account one important feature of the pyramids of Mesoamerica: the temple (or the dual temples) at the apex of the pyramids. What was the function of these temples at the top of the pyramids? Why do some pyramids have temples (Tenochtitlan, e.g. the pyramid of el Templo Mayor) and some don't (Teotihuacan, e.g., the pyramid of the Sun)? Obviously, there is more going on here than what Marquez and Castañeda propose below. Teotihuacan, Tula, Chichén Itza, Monte alban, solo son resquicios de monumentos creados para el incremento de estos "poderes". Los brujos de antaño se sentaban a concentrar su atención en puntos particulares de las pirámides logrando desconectarse del "mundo real" de manera que alteraban su visión y su concepción del mundo. Podríamos quizá relacionar a miles de monumentos en todo el planeta con este objetivo; hacer que el iniciado centrara su atención plena para despertar sus facultades mentales, físicas y espirituales. Is the temple(s) on top of the pyramid a late development? Was the vision and conception of the world transformed from an awakening of people's psychic and spiritual consciousness to a mode of worship, ritual and ceremonial center based on their own (or a new) understanding of Ultimate Reality? These are the questions that are not accounted for in the Castañeda/Marquez hypothesis. I would be interested to know what other Listeros think about this. Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc Independent Scholar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 11 17:30:21 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 10:30:21 -0700 Subject: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids In-Reply-To: <002301c4afb6$f83a8570$4cee0b45@JuanAlvarez> Message-ID: Not to get off this subject matter...... But does anyone know what "COAHUILA " mean? The people of Texas ( TEJAS ) were called "COAHUILTECANS" just wondering...The CADDOS say that *TEJAS* is a word from their language, I say not... Later... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX Mon Oct 11 18:49:08 2004 From: mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX (Mario Marquez) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:49:08 -0600 Subject: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids and TOLTECS In-Reply-To: <002301c4afb6$f83a8570$4cee0b45@JuanAlvarez> Message-ID: Juan, Thanks for your comments. I can not support CastanedaÂ’s hypothesis. IÂ’m just wanted to share it because it would be an alternative explanation to a worship inherited from ancient cultures in Mesosamerica. I would like to say something more ; Don Juan Matus expose that he ( and Carlos of course ) belongs to an ancient culture, in fact , Toltec Culture. CastanendaÂ’s book “El don del Aguila” propose a Toltec civilitation who made temples to focus an special attention ( attention is a concept to awake a spirituyal consciouness) . The top of one temple would be a point of a superior attention – I do not know , IÂ’m just playing with ideas – because many arqueologist says pyramids were builted in layers at different times. It could be like a trainning were subject –candidate to this mysteries- took many years. Toltecs means “builders”. What is the relation between Pyramids, magicians and toltecs ? IÂ’d really like to know more comments to this topic. Regards, Mario Marquez -----Mensaje original----- De: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] En nombre de Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc Enviado el: Lunes, 11 de Octubre de 2004 11:23 a.m. Para: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Asunto: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids Mario Marquez comments on Castañeda's hypothesis of the function and origin of pyramids in Mesoamerica (as outlined below) does not take into account one important feature of the pyramids of Mesoamerica: the temple (or the dual temples) at the apex of the pyramids. What was the function of these temples at the top of the pyramids? Why do some pyramids have temples (Tenochtitlan, e.g. the pyramid of el Templo Mayor) and some don't (Teotihuacan, e.g., the pyramid of the Sun)? Obviously, there is more going on here than what Marquez and Castañeda propose below. Teotihuacan, Tula, Chichén Itza, Monte alban, solo son resquicios de monumentos creados para el incremento de estos "poderes". Los brujos de antaño se sentaban a concentrar su atención en puntos particulares de las pirámides logrando desconectarse del "mundo real" de manera que alteraban su visión y su concepción del mundo. Podríamos quizá relacionar a miles de monumentos en todo el planeta con este objetivo; hacer que el iniciado centrara su atención plena para despertar sus facultades mentales, físicas y espirituales. Is the temple(s) on top of the pyramid a late development? Was the vision and conception of the world transformed from an awakening of people's psychic and spiritual consciousness to a mode of worship, ritual and ceremonial center based on their own (or a new) understanding of Ultimate Reality? These are the questions that are not accounted for in the Castañeda/Marquez hypothesis. I would be interested to know what other Listeros think about this. Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc Independent Scholar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX Mon Oct 11 18:56:31 2004 From: mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX (Mario Marquez) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:56:31 -0600 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: <20041011173021.22003.qmail@web40713.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I knew, Coahuila comes from Coatl = serpent and Huila = Bird. It is like “Serpent that flies “ In Fact, Oficial name is “Coahuila de Zaragoza” because General Ignacio Zaragoza was born there. Mario Márquez -----Mensaje original----- De: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] En nombre de DARKHORSE Enviado el: Lunes, 11 de Octubre de 2004 11:30 a.m. Para: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Asunto: Re: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids Not to get off this subject matter...... But does anyone know what "COAHUILA " mean? The people of Texas ( TEJAS ) were called "COAHUILTECANS" just wondering...The CADDOS say that *TEJAS* is a word from their language, I say not... Later... _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 11 18:01:16 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:01:16 -0700 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: <004d01c4afc4$062dc450$6afea8c0@MARIO> Message-ID: The way I gathered, Teca(s) means "People" Correct? Thus "COAHUILTECANS" means "People of the Flying Serpent?" Thanks... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tonantzn at CHORUS.NET Mon Oct 11 18:24:11 2004 From: tonantzn at CHORUS.NET (Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 13:24:11 -0500 Subject: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids Message-ID: Hola Carnal, Good to know you are out there bato! W.W. Newcomb, Jr. in his book, The Indians of Texas (UT Press) does not address the etymology of "COAHUILA" and according to him, these group belonged to "Hokan group of languages". (See, page 32). Mario Márquez suggests a Nahuatl language etymology, but I have some misgivings about this. Concerning "Tejas".. well, Newcomb uses the term "Teyas" but whether "Tejas" comes from the Caddoan language is not entirely clear even to Newcomb. Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc ----- Original Message ----- From: DARKHORSE To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 12:30 PM Subject: Re: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids Not to get off this subject matter...... But does anyone know what "COAHUILA " mean? The people of Texas ( TEJAS ) were called "COAHUILTECANS" just wondering...The CADDOS say that *TEJAS* is a word from their language, I say not... Later... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tonantzn at CHORUS.NET Mon Oct 11 18:27:43 2004 From: tonantzn at CHORUS.NET (Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 13:27:43 -0500 Subject: Coahuila Message-ID: Mario, Where is "Coahuila de Zaragoza" present day? Is it in Mexico or Texas? The reason I am asking is this. Most Chicanos, myself included, thought Ignacio Zaragoza was born in Texas. Juan ----- Original Message ----- From: Mario Marquez To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 1:56 PM Subject: Coahuila I knew, Coahuila comes from Coatl = serpent and Huila = Bird. It is like "Serpent that flies " In Fact, Oficial name is "Coahuila de Zaragoza" because General Ignacio Zaragoza was born there. Mario Márquez -----Mensaje original----- De: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] En nombre de DARKHORSE Enviado el: Lunes, 11 de Octubre de 2004 11:30 a.m. Para: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Asunto: Re: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids Not to get off this subject matter...... But does anyone know what "COAHUILA " mean? The people of Texas ( TEJAS ) were called "COAHUILTECANS" just wondering...The CADDOS say that *TEJAS* is a word from their language, I say not... Later... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 11 18:30:26 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:30:26 -0700 Subject: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids In-Reply-To: <005701c4afbf$83139710$4cee0b45@JuanAlvarez> Message-ID: Orale ese, my sentiments exactly..... I guess we should just along eh? The Caddo are actually nice people I've met many of them... And some do speak Spanish... They don't even know if they built those mounds in Texas or they are not exactly sure... We need a TIME MACHINE Bro...Hehehe..... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX Mon Oct 11 19:45:58 2004 From: mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX (Mario Marquez) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 13:45:58 -0600 Subject: Coahuila and Zaragoza In-Reply-To: <005f01c4afc0$003a5120$4cee0b45@JuanAlvarez> Message-ID: Well, IÂ’m sorry. I must correct information Coahuila de Zaragoza is in México. Ignacio Zaragoza was born in Texas, when Texas was part of Mexico. Regards, -----Mensaje original----- De: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] En nombre de Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc Enviado el: Lunes, 11 de Octubre de 2004 12:28 p.m. Para: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Asunto: Re: Coahuila Mario, Where is "Coahuila de Zaragoza" present day? Is it in Mexico or Texas? The reason I am asking is this. Most Chicanos, myself included, thought Ignacio Zaragoza was born in Texas. Juan ----- Original Message ----- From: Mario Marquez To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 1:56 PM Subject: Coahuila I knew, Coahuila comes from Coatl = serpent and Huila = Bird. It is like “Serpent that flies “ In Fact, Oficial name is “Coahuila de Zaragoza” because General Ignacio Zaragoza was born there. Mario Márquez -----Mensaje original----- De: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] En nombre de DARKHORSE Enviado el: Lunes, 11 de Octubre de 2004 11:30 a.m. Para: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Asunto: Re: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids Not to get off this subject matter...... But does anyone know what "COAHUILA " mean? The people of Texas ( TEJAS ) were called "COAHUILTECANS" just wondering...The CADDOS say that *TEJAS* is a word from their language, I say not... Later... _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dfrye at UMICH.EDU Mon Oct 11 19:02:08 2004 From: dfrye at UMICH.EDU (Frye, David L) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:02:08 -0400 Subject: Coahuila Message-ID: Ignacio Zaragoza was born in Bahia de Espiritu Santo in what was then the Mexican state of "Coahuila y Texas." The same year he was born, Bahia was renamed Goliad, and a few years later it became part of Texas. When Texas broke from Mexico, a big chunks of Coahuila and Tamaulipas (aka Nuevo Santander) were taken as part of Texas, but Goliad was always in the Texas part of "Coahuila y Texas." (The town is SE of San Antonio.) Ignacio Zaragoza grew up in Matamoros and then moved to Monterrey before going on to national prominence as a general. In response to an earlier message, -teco and -teca are alternative Spanish versions of the Nahuatl suffix -tecatl, which means "from (a place)." It is sort of like -an in English: Mexico, America > Mexican, American. It does not quite mean "people" in itself, but it is quite often used to create adjectives and nouns to describe the people from a given place. For example, "Zacatecas" is the Spanish plural of "Zacateca," from Nahuatl "Zacatecatl," which means "(people) from Zacatlan." Zacatlan in turn is zacatl (grass) + the suffix -an (place). So "Zacatecas" are the people from Zacatlan, the Place of Grass. Coahuilteco would most likely be from Coahuiltecatl, "(the people) from Coahuillan." It is worth mentioning that Nahuatl speakers gave names to places all over Mexico, Guatemala, and surrounding areas. The name Coahuila might come from Nahuatl, but that does not necessarily mean that the people in Coahuila spoke Nahuatl. From teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 14 12:00:33 2004 From: teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM (Steffen Haurholm-Larsen) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:00:33 +0000 Subject: Regarding Frye's analysis of Zacatlan Message-ID: As I was reading the message below which was a response to the "Coahuila" discussion I could'nt help but notice the analysis of "zacatlan" as consisting of "zacatl" and a supposed suffix "-an" to form the locative expression of "the grass place" or "place of grass". In the analysis the suffix "-an" is translated as "place". I do belive, however, that this suffix does not exist in nahuatl, at least not in that form. I think that the suffix in use here is "-tlan" meaning originally "under" but tanking the meaning of "by" or "at"(Michel Launey: 1992, p. 219.) Then the analysis would be that by the derrivation the word "zacatl" looses its indefinit suffix "-tl" and in stead is suffigated "-tlan" to form the placename "Zacatlan". It is the same suffix that appears in the placename of the Mexica capital Tenochtitlan only in that particular case with the ligature "-ti-" between the nominal root and the suffix. My best regards Steffen Haurholm- Larsen, University of Copenhagen >From: "Frye, David L" >Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >Subject: Re: Coahuila >Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:02:08 -0400 > >Ignacio Zaragoza was born in Bahia de Espiritu Santo in what was then >the Mexican state of "Coahuila y Texas." The same year he was born, >Bahia was renamed Goliad, and a few years later it became part of Texas. >When Texas broke from Mexico, a big chunks of Coahuila and Tamaulipas >(aka Nuevo Santander) were taken as part of Texas, but Goliad was always >in the Texas part of "Coahuila y Texas." (The town is SE of San >Antonio.) Ignacio Zaragoza grew up in Matamoros and then moved to >Monterrey before going on to national prominence as a general. > >In response to an earlier message, -teco and -teca are alternative >Spanish versions of the Nahuatl suffix -tecatl, which means "from (a >place)." It is sort of like -an in English: Mexico, America > Mexican, >American. It does not quite mean "people" in itself, but it is quite >often used to create adjectives and nouns to describe the people from a >given place. > >For example, "Zacatecas" is the Spanish plural of "Zacateca," from >Nahuatl "Zacatecatl," which means "(people) from Zacatlan." Zacatlan in >turn is zacatl (grass) + the suffix -an (place). So "Zacatecas" are the >people from Zacatlan, the Place of Grass. > >Coahuilteco would most likely be from Coahuiltecatl, "(the people) from >Coahuillan." > >It is worth mentioning that Nahuatl speakers gave names to places all >over Mexico, Guatemala, and surrounding areas. The name Coahuila might >come from Nahuatl, but that does not necessarily mean that the people in >Coahuila spoke Nahuatl. _________________________________________________________________ Opret en gratis Hotmail-konto http://www.hotmail.com med udsigt til 250 MB lagerkapacitet From dfrye at UMICH.EDU Thu Oct 14 14:20:17 2004 From: dfrye at UMICH.EDU (Frye, David L) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:20:17 -0400 Subject: -tecatl (-teco), -tlan Message-ID: Thanks for the correction. I shouldn't have tried answering without Frances Karttunen's Analytical Dictionary in front of me. She has: -te:ca-tl (pl, -te:cah), "This ending replaces -TLA:N in place names to yield 'resident of, person from' that place, TEPOZTE:CATL 'person from Tepoztlan.'" -tla:n "Place of, at... This commonly forms place names." (etc.) ________________________________ From: Nahua language and culture discussion on behalf of Steffen Haurholm-Larsen Sent: Thu 10/14/2004 8:00 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Regarding Frye's analysis of Zacatlan As I was reading the message below which was a response to the "Coahuila" discussion I could'nt help but notice the analysis of "zacatlan" as consisting of "zacatl" and a supposed suffix "-an" to form the locative expression of "the grass place" or "place of grass". In the analysis the suffix "-an" is translated as "place". I do belive, however, that this suffix does not exist in nahuatl, at least not in that form. I think that the suffix in use here is "-tlan" meaning originally "under" but tanking the meaning of "by" or "at"(Michel Launey: 1992, p. 219.) Then the analysis would be that by the derrivation the word "zacatl" looses its indefinit suffix "-tl" and in stead is suffigated "-tlan" to form the placename "Zacatlan". It is the same suffix that appears in the placename of the Mexica capital Tenochtitlan only in that particular case with the ligature "-ti-" between the nominal root and the suffix. My best regards Steffen Haurholm- Larsen, University of Copenhagen From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 14 16:09:47 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:09:47 -0700 Subject: -tecatl (-teco), -tlan In-Reply-To: <71F249219F2E3845B88BE93BEC6DA4FB028B6A24@lsa-m2.lsa.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: in my hometown area ( The Lower Rio Grande Valley Of Texas ) there is a very small hamlet called "ZACATAL" on US. Route 281 which is know as the "Military Highway," I saw someone mentioned that the people living in this area(s) didn't speak Nahuat-l, I beg to differ, my grandparents did... This was also "COAHUILTECAN" country. As a matter of fact the whole Rio Grande Valley on both sides was considered Coahuila. read the Treaty between Texas and Mexico and the Texas . http://www.sfasu.edu/polisci/Abel/TexasConstitution.html Read where it describes the Mexican People known as Coahuiltecans or Coahuiltejanos.. Maybe you should take a trip down to the Valley and listened in on the language across the border into the Mexican side ... Hasta La Proxima.. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Oct 14 18:53:48 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:53:48 -0400 Subject: Regarding Frye's analysis of Zacatlan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Clearly the place name is formed of the stem zaca- 'grass' (minus the absolutive suffix of the citation form zacatl) plus a suffix. There is a locative suffix -tla:n with a long vowel. -tla:n binds to stems without the -ti- ligature and means 'next to, among.' Then there is the postposition -tlan with a short vowel that means 'beneath, under.' This one binds to stems with -ti- to form place names but does not use the -ti- when functioning as a simple postposition, as in i:-tlan, for example. With body parts there are some -tlan doublets with and without -ti. I think "Zacatlan" is actually Zacatla:n and formed with -tla:n in contrast to Teno:chtitlan Fran On Oct 14, 2004, at 8:00 AM, Steffen Haurholm-Larsen wrote: > As I was reading the message below which was a response to the > "Coahuila" > discussion I could'nt help but notice the analysis of "zacatlan" as > consisting of "zacatl" and a supposed suffix "-an" to form the locative > expression of "the grass place" or "place of grass". In the analysis > the > suffix "-an" is translated as "place". > I do belive, however, that this suffix does not exist in nahuatl, at > least > not in that form. I think that the suffix in use here is "-tlan" > meaning > originally "under" but tanking the meaning of "by" or "at"(Michel > Launey: > 1992, p. 219.) Then the analysis would be that by the derrivation the > word > "zacatl" looses its indefinit suffix "-tl" and in stead is suffigated > "-tlan" to form the placename "Zacatlan". > It is the same suffix that appears in the placename of the Mexica > capital > Tenochtitlan only in that particular case with the ligature "-ti-" > between > the nominal root and the suffix. > > My best regards > Steffen Haurholm- Larsen, > University of Copenhagen > > > > >> From: "Frye, David L" >> Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >> >> To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >> Subject: Re: Coahuila >> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:02:08 -0400 >> >> Ignacio Zaragoza was born in Bahia de Espiritu Santo in what was then >> the Mexican state of "Coahuila y Texas." The same year he was born, >> Bahia was renamed Goliad, and a few years later it became part of >> Texas. >> When Texas broke from Mexico, a big chunks of Coahuila and Tamaulipas >> (aka Nuevo Santander) were taken as part of Texas, but Goliad was >> always >> in the Texas part of "Coahuila y Texas." (The town is SE of San >> Antonio.) Ignacio Zaragoza grew up in Matamoros and then moved to >> Monterrey before going on to national prominence as a general. >> >> In response to an earlier message, -teco and -teca are alternative >> Spanish versions of the Nahuatl suffix -tecatl, which means "from (a >> place)." It is sort of like -an in English: Mexico, America > Mexican, >> American. It does not quite mean "people" in itself, but it is quite >> often used to create adjectives and nouns to describe the people from >> a >> given place. >> >> For example, "Zacatecas" is the Spanish plural of "Zacateca," from >> Nahuatl "Zacatecatl," which means "(people) from Zacatlan." Zacatlan >> in >> turn is zacatl (grass) + the suffix -an (place). So "Zacatecas" are >> the >> people from Zacatlan, the Place of Grass. >> >> Coahuilteco would most likely be from Coahuiltecatl, "(the people) >> from >> Coahuillan." >> >> It is worth mentioning that Nahuatl speakers gave names to places all >> over Mexico, Guatemala, and surrounding areas. The name Coahuila might >> come from Nahuatl, but that does not necessarily mean that the people >> in >> Coahuila spoke Nahuatl. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Opret en gratis Hotmail-konto http://www.hotmail.com med udsigt til > 250 MB > lagerkapacitet > From Huaxyacac at AOL.COM Sun Oct 17 07:53:09 2004 From: Huaxyacac at AOL.COM (Huaxyacac at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 03:53:09 -0400 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: I am rather fond of Jane Hill's arguments myself. To answer some of Mark's questions: "But, the first question that I ask myself is how did the PUA linguistic family get into the Americas and into Mesoamerica?" I don't think any of the language families of the New World "got into the Americas"; at least, the proto-languages that we can reliably reconstruct using historical linguistics go back to a time horizon far more recent than the initial settlement of the Americas. In fact, for most language families I suspect the time horizon is early agriculture. Prior to that, the Mesoamerican linguistic landscape may have resembled aboriginal Australia, with dozens if not hundreds of separate languages that both were old enough but also shared enough loans with other so that they cannot be connected into clear, monophyletic families the way traditional historical linguistics works. "If you take an expansive view of the Otomanguean family and affinitive branches, there is a general extension of these languages over central, southeastern and south central Mesoamerica from the Panuco River to Subtiaba. From there, it is easy to conclude there was an westward bound intrusion of UA (as Nahuatl) into the central and southern area (and in at least two major waves as Dakin and Wichann describe), fragmenting and altering the older Otomanguean languages spread through the region." I don't think Hill would argue with the idea that Nahuatl per se arrived in Central Mexico late, as an intrusion into a primarily Otomanguean-speaking area. I suspect that the "homeland" of PUA was further north and west than this, in the Occidente or Bajio. "If UA originated within the Mesoamerican cultural sphere, why would it present itself clearly as an irruption into a landscape of otherwise affinitive languages? I would still be inclined, hence, to view UA's arrival into western Mesoamerica a consequence of southern migrations. That does not discount the possibility, I believe, that "Mesoamericanized" UA then returned north with agricultural cultivators." The spread of agriculture to the north, and the separation of northern and southern Utoaztecan, far, far predates the historically and archaeological documented migration of Nahuas into central Mesoamerica. I believe we are talking about two completely different processes here: one of agricultural spread, and a later one of elite dominance. I think that the spread of domesticated crops and the related technology set across the Late Archaic Mesoamerican highlands allowed the populations of several different highland basins to expand in classic agricultural spreads. Otomanguean spread in two segments, one from the Basin of Mexico and the other from the Valley of Oaxaca, and came to fill most of the central highlands. Mixe-Zoquean spread from Chiapas into the adjacent lowlands; Mayan may have spread from the lowlands (John Clark has a good model of distinct proto-Maya "tribes"). Purepecha spread in Michoacan, but could not expand very far because it was surrounded by other spreads. Utoaztecan spread from the northern fringe, and thus could spread the furthest, as the new technology allowed higher population densities well to the north. "If anyone sees any big problems with this hypothesis, I would really like to hear about it since (barring a significant epiphany) this is what I will tell my students in winter survey course of Mesoamerican civilization." That's my two cents. I'll be interested to see any responses--although I will also be in rural Laos with little or no email access for a month, so I won't see them for a while. Cheers, Alec Christensen ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Sun Oct 17 19:01:41 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:01:41 -0500 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland In-Reply-To: <17CB6B2E.738DD3B7.0256DCD3@aol.com> Message-ID: Alec, Thanks for your comments. Just a couple of clarifications in case someone elese is interested in following this. First, when I was speaking broadly of Otomanguean and affinitive languages, I was speaking very broadly, referring specifically to the similarities among Otomanguean, Mayan and Mixe-Zoquean languages that do not extend to Uto-Aztecan languages. Second, the first migrations of Nahua-speaking peoples into Central and Eastern Mesoamerica occurred roughly concomitant with the spread of agriculture north beyond the limit of the Mesoamerican area, ca. 500-700 c.e. (common era), although if Nahua circulated in the western region (Nyarit, pacific Jalisco and Michoacan) earlier, it is likely that it was present in the extensive contacts of the western cultures with the Tlaxcala-Puebla region ca. 300 b.c.e. best, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Oct 18 15:34:43 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:34:43 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Romances_de_los_señores?= Message-ID: I have done a bit of poking around regarding the "Romances de los señores de la nueva españa" and noticed that Andrea Martinez Baracs is listed in various places as working on a modern edition of these poems. Does anyone know of the progress of the project? Similarly a French scholar Marie Sautron was doing a similar thing prior to her untimely death. Is anyone else working on the Romances? John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU Wed Oct 20 21:44:31 2004 From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:44:31 -0600 Subject: Looking for Name of a List Member Message-ID: A while back I asked for advice about how to treat a Nahuatl text I'm working on. Someone here commented that he and some colleagues are working on a text that will attempt, as closely as typesetting technology permits, to reproduce in detail the characteristics of a Nahuatl text. I have some questions about specific procedures and would like to contact that person again. If you've read this (or know who it was), please write me offline at rcrapo at cc.usu.edu. Richley From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Wed Oct 20 21:56:16 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:56:16 -0500 Subject: Looking for Name of a List Member In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richley, I think that there may be miequintin people who would be interested in that information. |8-) Joe On Wed, 20 Oct 2004, Richley Crapo wrote: > A while back I asked for advice about how to treat a Nahuatl text I'm > working on. Someone here commented that he and some colleagues are > working on a text that will attempt, as closely as typesetting > technology permits, to reproduce in detail the characteristics of a > Nahuatl text. I have some questions about specific procedures and would > like to contact that person again. > > If you've read this (or know who it was), please write me offline at > rcrapo at cc.usu.edu. > > Richley > > > From pthajovs at UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Oct 21 12:57:50 2004 From: pthajovs at UCHICAGO.EDU (pthajovs at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 07:57:50 -0500 Subject: Nebrija's Dictionarium Message-ID: Has anyone done historical work on the copy of Nebrija's Dictionarium in the Newberry Library (Ayer ms. 1478), which adds Nahuatl to the Spanish and Latin entries? According to the Newberry's records, it probably dates to 1540. At first glance, some entries (at least the Spanish entries) parallel Molina's 1571 dictionary. Newberry's catalog states that it may be from Sahagún's collection. So, a Tlatelolco provenence seems probable, at the least. Can anyone share more information on this? I'm especially interested in Nebrija's Latin source, and what a comparison of the ms. with Molina may tell us about the formation of Molina's lexicon. Thanks. From clayton at INDIANA.EDU Thu Oct 21 18:26:30 2004 From: clayton at INDIANA.EDU (mary l. clayton) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 13:26:30 -0500 Subject: Nebrija's Dictionarium In-Reply-To: <1098363470.4177b24e864c4@webmail.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 pthajovs at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > Has anyone done historical work on the copy of Nebrija's Dictionarium in the > Newberry Library (Ayer ms. 1478), which adds Nahuatl to the Spanish and Latin > entries? According to the Newberry's records, it probably dates to 1540. At > first glance, some entries (at least the Spanish entries) parallel Molina's 1571 > dictionary. Newberry's catalog states that it may be from Sahagún's collection. > So, a Tlatelolco provenence seems probable, at the least. Can anyone share > more information on this? I'm especially interested in Nebrija's Latin source, > and what a comparison of the ms. with Molina may tell us about the formation of > Molina's lexicon. Thanks. ****** As a matter of fact, I've been working on this document for longer than I like to admit to myself. When I began working on it, it was because I recognized in it a substantial and independent source of early colonial Nahuatl vocabulary. Also, it was intriguing because there seems to be a lot of misinformation about it. I'm not sure what you mean by "historical work". I've chased down all of the bibliography that I can find (much of which is secondary and/or erroneous), have consulted the librarians at the Newberry and have put many years into internal analysis of the text. For those who are not familiar with this document, it is a small (in physical size, less small in content) manuscript dictionary based on Nebrija's 1516 Spanish-Latin dictionary, which is copied (apparently a bad attempt at verbatim) in black ink with Nahuatl equivalents added in red for most entries. My early work (references below) established: 1) that this manuscript is a copy of an earlier work containing all three languages, 2) that the copyist was a native speaker of Nahuatl (not a controversial issue), and 3) that it is in fact based on the 1516 Nebrija and not on the earlier 1495 Spanish-Latin dictionary (sometimes incorrectly dated 1492). 4) I further suggested that internal evidence points to the possibility of a native Nahuatl-speaking author. My goal (I'm guessing that I'm about 80% finished) is a four-part work: 1) a close edition of the manuscript with copious notes, 2) a Nahuatl alphabetical dictionary drawing together and lemmatizing all of the occurrences of the Nahuatl words scattered throughout the dictionary, along with their morphological analyses and with English translations for Spanish Latin and Nahuatl, 3) a morphological dictionary and 4) a monographic treatment of the document and its contents. This project has involved transcribing the document, entering standardized spellings (including correct spacing) along with original spellings for the Nahuatl equivalents so that they can be sorted and gathered correctly, doing the morphological analyses, adding several comment fields which permit me to make categorized comments on each entry for factors ranging from copyist's errors (voiced consonants for voiceless, etc.) to semantic fields, (vocabulary related to agriculture, body parts, weather, etc.) to notes on errors in the manuscript. My husband, Joe Campbell, has been a tremendous help in designing the database -- and re-designing it at least twice, as more and more fields became necessary -- and has written all of the programs which sort and search on the various fields and produce the dictionary format from the database. A big hang-up in progress occurred when I discovered that errors which I had attributed to the scribe or to the author (the scribe is so uneducated that I don't think he could possibly have written the Nahuatl equivalents) were in fact differences due to the fact that the modern edition of the 1516 edition of Nebrija has been so changed that it isn't reliable (it's a critical edition, but still...). So I took the time to locate a microfilm of the 1516 dictionary and transcribe it in its entirety into a new field in the database. THEN I discovered that some of the remaining problems are due to the fact that the 1516 Nebrija exists in at least THREE different printings (that I know of -- there may be more), which differ a fair amount in spelling. So I'm noting differences between the Newberry dictionary and the two versions of the 1516 that are available to me. Some morsels and observations: The title "Vocabulario trilingue" occurs only on the binding, which, according to John Aubrey, Ayer librarian at the Newberry Library, is 19th century. (Besides, "Vocabulario trilingue" is just a descriptive title. The fact that this corresponds to a title mentioned by Sahagun doesn't carry much weight, although the person who had it re-bound may have intended it to.) Nothing that I can find relates this book to Sahagun or to Tlatelolco. The "Sahagun connection" seems to be just wishful thinking. Once you look at the "evidence", none of it stands up and most of it is only assertions. The 1540 date is just there, I think, because that's about the earliest that a dictionary could have been produced. I've also seen them date it at 1590, the year of Sahagun's death. In my opinion (and I have access to the complete database and to Joe's Molina and Sahagun databases) the only relationship between this dictionary and Molina's is that they both contain Nahuatl and Spanish. Obviously, the Spanish in this dictionary is similar to Nebrija's -- it's a copy. Joe and I dealt at length with the question of the relationship of *Molina* to Nebrija in our 2002 paper (see below) The answer there is that, sure, Molina had access to Nebrija, but he used it judiciously for suggestions for gathering vocabulary. He excludes many entries which aren't relevant to 16th century Mexico and includes many many new entries of his own, many of which relate specifically to Mexico. Our 2002 paper further increased our awe of Molina as a lexicographer. I think he's light years ahead of Nebrija in writing dictionaries which fulfill their mission. As for Nebrija's Latin -- I'd like to know more about that too! His mastery of Latin doesn't seem to have had the finesse that one would have expected or hoped for. On the other hand, he gets a lot of credit for his Latin-Spanish (1492) and Spanish-Latin (1495 and 1516) dictionaries for doing what hadn't been done before. I could write far more about the topic of this dictionary than anyone is interested in reading -- and may already have done so in this message. If you have further questions, I welcome them. Cheers, Mary Clayton some numbers: 15,479 total entries in the Newberry dictionary (cf. 17,088 Spanish entries with 36,954 Nahuatl equivalents in Molina's 1571 Spanish-Nahuatl dictionary). 11,059 entries in the Newberry dictionary contain Nahuatl (some have more than one equivalent) 11,933 Nahuatl equivalents (tokens) 9,254 total Nahuatl equivalent types. These will be the headwords in the dictionary I'm preparing. 52,515 individual Nahuatl morphemes coded so far. Just under 600 words (tokens) remain with incomplete morphology. Some of these require just one decision to be completed, others are complete mysteries. A fair number are garbled entries that will probably never find solutions. Clayton, Mary L. 1989. "A Trilingual Spanish-Latin-Nahuatl Manuscript Dictionary Sometimes Attributed to Fray Bernardino de Sahagun." _International Journal of American Linguistics_ 55:391-416 [an initial summary of my findings to an early point -- with the caveat that what I said on f/h was based on a misunderstanding about the modern edition of Nebrija and is wrong.] __________. 1999. "Three Questions in Nahuatl Morphology: 'wedge', 'helmet', 'plaster'." _International Journal of American Linguistics_ 65:466-84 [details on three morphemes based on evidence from the Ayer dictionary with additions from Sahagun and Molina] __________ 2003. "Evidence for a Native-Speaking Nahuatl Author in the Ayer Vocabulario trilingue" _International Journal of Lexicography_ 16:99-119. [my arguments, based on internal evidence, on why I think the Nahuatl equivalents were written by a native speaker of Nahuatl] __________ and R. Joe Campbell, 2002. "Alonso de Molina as Lexicographer" _Making Dictionaries: Preserving Indigenous Languages of the Americas_. edited by William Frawley, Kenneth C. Hill and Pamela Munro. pp.336-390. Berkeley: University of California Press. [our paper examining the three Molina dictionaries from a number of angles. one of the most challenging and rewarding projects I've ever undertaken.] From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri Oct 22 12:39:24 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 07:39:24 -0500 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: <20041011180116.38091.qmail@web40704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The front end of this term, the "Coahuil-" part is probably not Nahuatl. Granted, the coa- is invitingly similar in form to the Nahuatl root for "snake," but the -huil- just doesn't fit the Nahuatl bill. Given the location of these people, it's most likely the Coahuil- came from another language. If you are serious about tracking down the etymology of this term, then you might want to start with the languages of northern Mexico, perhaps with the language of these people. Michael On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, DARKHORSE wrote: > The way I gathered, Teca(s) means "People" Correct? Thus "COAHUILTECANS" means "People of the Flying Serpent?" > > Thanks... > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Fri Oct 22 13:47:13 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:47:13 +0100 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, DARKHORSE wrote: > The way I gathered, Teca(s) means "People" Correct? > Thus "COAHUILTECANS" means "People of the Flying Serpent?" Coahuila is largely desert, like nearby Sonora. In the deserts of the Middle East, heat delirium hallucinations caused by dehydration, including seeing flying snakes, were so frequent down the millennia that some people believed that flying snakes existed: thus even the Greek historian Herodotus wrote "Snakes occur everywhere, but flying snakes in the desert of Arabia only.". Could travellers in Coahuila have hallucinated flying snakes for the same reason? From tonantzn at CHORUS.NET Fri Oct 22 14:08:38 2004 From: tonantzn at CHORUS.NET (Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:08:38 -0500 Subject: Coahuila Message-ID: Flying Serpent? Anthony Appleyard's take on "Flying Serpent" may not be so farfetched. But I doubt that this notion of a "Flying Serpent" was a result of the Sonora desert heat and hallucinations caused by dehydration. Perhaps it is more related to the Mesoamerican mythological matrix of the "Feathered Serpent." Would it be that a "Flying Serpent" may have been envisioned as possessing "Feathers" that made it fly? As to Herodotus, what prompted him to ascribe "flying snakes" to the Arabian desert but nowhere else? Surely some other explanation is at work here. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ANTHONY APPLEYARD" To: Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 8:47 AM Subject: Re: Coahuila > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, DARKHORSE wrote: >> The way I gathered, Teca(s) means "People" Correct? >> Thus "COAHUILTECANS" means "People of the Flying Serpent?" > > Coahuila is largely desert, like nearby Sonora. In the deserts of the > Middle East, heat delirium hallucinations caused by dehydration, > including seeing flying snakes, were so frequent down the millennia > that some people believed that flying snakes existed: thus even the > Greek historian Herodotus wrote "Snakes occur everywhere, but flying > snakes in the desert of Arabia only.". Could travellers in Coahuila > have hallucinated flying snakes for the same reason? > From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Fri Oct 22 14:33:19 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:33:19 +0100 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: <004c01c4b840$a15e8340$9bee0b45@JuanAlvarez> Message-ID: --- Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc wrote: > Flying Serpent? Anthony Appleyard's take on "Flying Serpent" may not > be so farfetched. But I doubt that this notion of a "Flying Serpent" > was a result of the Sonora desert heat and hallucinations caused by > dehydration. Perhaps it is more related to the Mesoamerican > mythological matrix of the "Feathered Serpent." ... > As to Herodotus, what prompted him to ascribe "flying snakes" to the > Arabian desert but nowhere else? Because in areas well known to ancient Greece, only the Arabian desert was hot and dry enough to cause this sort of hallucination frequently. Even the King of Assyria once saw winged flying snakes when he was crossing desert in a campaign, or so an inscription says. As to hallucination versus current mythology :: given a cause of hallucinosis (drugs, heat delirium, insanity, or whatever), hallucination tends to follow (and thus reinforce) existing belief. I read that one cause of persistent hallucinosis in an area of countryside was non-alcoholic delirium tremens caused by magnesium deficiency. From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 22 16:43:33 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:43:33 -0700 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So far this is what I have found..... Kickapoo The Algonquian family includes several languages in the United States and Canada, such as Cheyenne, Arapaho, Cree, Ojibwa, and Fox, as well as the Kickapoo language of Mexico, spoken by a small group in the state of of Coahuila. Kickapoo is closely related to a larger group of the same name, in the state of Oklahoma, USA. The speakers of this language group arrived in Mexico in 1839. Maybe the Tejanos are of the Algonquian Language Family ? Que dicen Uds.? Noten el mapa ....There's the Rio Grande Valley Of Texas.... Hijole sera possible?!!! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Oct 22 19:32:15 2004 From: cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET (Joanna M. Sanchez) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:32:15 -0400 Subject: Coahuila Message-ID: I wonder why such flight phenomena would be limited to serpents if an hallucination? Might it be true that desert snakes develop means of traversing the hot landscape with a minimum of bodily contact- seeming to 'fly' as they hurl themselves along? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc" To: Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 10:08 AM Subject: Re: Coahuila > Flying Serpent? Anthony Appleyard's take on "Flying Serpent" may not be so > farfetched. But I doubt that this notion of a "Flying Serpent" was a result > of the Sonora desert heat and hallucinations caused by dehydration. Perhaps > it is more related to the Mesoamerican mythological matrix of the "Feathered > Serpent." Would it be that a "Flying Serpent" may have been envisioned as > possessing "Feathers" that made it fly? As to Herodotus, what prompted him > to ascribe "flying snakes" to the Arabian desert but nowhere else? Surely > some other explanation is at work here. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ANTHONY APPLEYARD" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 8:47 AM > Subject: Re: Coahuila > > > > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, DARKHORSE wrote: > >> The way I gathered, Teca(s) means "People" Correct? > >> Thus "COAHUILTECANS" means "People of the Flying Serpent?" > > > > Coahuila is largely desert, like nearby Sonora. In the deserts of the > > Middle East, heat delirium hallucinations caused by dehydration, > > including seeing flying snakes, were so frequent down the millennia > > that some people believed that flying snakes existed: thus even the > > Greek historian Herodotus wrote "Snakes occur everywhere, but flying > > snakes in the desert of Arabia only.". Could travellers in Coahuila > > have hallucinated flying snakes for the same reason? > > > From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Fri Oct 22 19:47:35 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:47:35 +0100 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: <001601c4b86d$dc425fe0$7da25b40@sanchejm> Message-ID: --- "Joanna M. Sanchez" wrote: > I wonder why such flight phenomena would be limited to serpents if a > hallucination? > Might it be true that desert snakes develop means of > traversing the hot landscape with a minimum of bodily contact- > seeming to 'fly' as they hurl themselves along? He is describing "sidewinding". But people who are not hallucinating would not confuse sidewinding with flying in the air. Possibly desert mirages might be a part of the cause. The nearest to a real flying snake is a species of jungle snake which glides down from trees by moving its ribs to try to shape its body into a crude aerofoil. From cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Oct 22 19:32:15 2004 From: cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET (Joanna M. Sanchez) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:32:15 -0400 Subject: Coahuila Message-ID: I wonder why such flight phenomena would be limited to serpents if an hallucination? Might it be true that desert snakes develop means of traversing the hot landscape with a minimum of bodily contact- seeming to 'fly' as they hurl themselves along? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc" To: Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 10:08 AM Subject: Re: Coahuila > Flying Serpent? Anthony Appleyard's take on "Flying Serpent" may not be so > farfetched. But I doubt that this notion of a "Flying Serpent" was a result > of the Sonora desert heat and hallucinations caused by dehydration. Perhaps > it is more related to the Mesoamerican mythological matrix of the "Feathered > Serpent." Would it be that a "Flying Serpent" may have been envisioned as > possessing "Feathers" that made it fly? As to Herodotus, what prompted him > to ascribe "flying snakes" to the Arabian desert but nowhere else? Surely > some other explanation is at work here. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ANTHONY APPLEYARD" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 8:47 AM > Subject: Re: Coahuila > > > > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, DARKHORSE wrote: > >> The way I gathered, Teca(s) means "People" Correct? > >> Thus "COAHUILTECANS" means "People of the Flying Serpent?" > > > > Coahuila is largely desert, like nearby Sonora. In the deserts of the > > Middle East, heat delirium hallucinations caused by dehydration, > > including seeing flying snakes, were so frequent down the millennia > > that some people believed that flying snakes existed: thus even the > > Greek historian Herodotus wrote "Snakes occur everywhere, but flying > > snakes in the desert of Arabia only.". Could travellers in Coahuila > > have hallucinated flying snakes for the same reason? > > > ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs service. ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ From maffiej at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU Fri Oct 22 23:07:05 2004 From: maffiej at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU (James Maffie) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:07:05 -0600 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: <001601c4b86d$dc425fe0$7da25b40@sanchejm> Message-ID: I agree with Joanna. First, this strikes me as a sound methodological principle: when trying to explain some phenomenon, turn first to the environment (or perceived environment) before resorting to (what from the etic standpoint we deem) hallucinations, illusions, etc. I am unfamiliar with the snakes in the region in question, but do I know firsthand that sidewinders not only appear to fly across desert dunes but in fact leave track marks that show that the snakes do actually leave the ground. On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Joanna M. Sanchez wrote: > I wonder why such flight phenomena would be limited to > To: > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 10:08 AM > Subject: Re: Coahuila > > > > Flying Serpent? Anthony Appleyard's take on "Flying Serpent"Feathered > > Serpent." Would it be that a "Flying Serpent" may have been envisioned as > > possessing "Feathers" that made it fly? As to Herodotus, what prompted > him > > to ascribe "flying snakes" to the Arabian desert but nowhere else? Surely > > some other explanation is at work here. > > > > >> The way I gathered, Teca(s) means "People" Correct? > > >> Thus "COAHUILTECANS" means "People of the Flying Serpent?" > > > > > > Coahuila is largely desert, like nearby Sonora. In the dese From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Sat Oct 23 15:43:03 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 08:43:03 -0700 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: <001601c4b86d$dc425fe0$7da25b40@sanchejm> Message-ID: Flying snakes are a small group of species of tree snakes that live in South and Southeast Asia. At rest they appear unremarkable, but on the move they're able to take to the air by jumping from the tree, flattening the entire body, and gliding or parachuting to the ground or another tree. This site is dedicated to documenting the science of these unique animals. Not necessarily with feathers tho.*lol*........ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Sat Oct 23 15:50:50 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 08:50:50 -0700 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: <001601c4b86d$dc425fe0$7da25b40@sanchejm> Message-ID: Pterosaurs in Texas The Quetzalcoatlus had a wingspan of over 40 feet. It lived during the late Cretaceous. (Copyright Lee Krystek 2003) While driving his cruiser through the wee hours one morning 1976, Policeman Arturo Padilla of San Benito, Texas, spotted something unusual in his headlights. It looked like a big bird. A really big bird. A few minutes later Padilla�s fellow officer, Homer Galvan, reported it also. It appeared as a black silhouette that glided through the air. According to Galvan, it never even flapped its wings. A short time later Alverico Guajardo, a resident of Brownsville, Texas, reported he'd heard a thumping noise outside his mobile home at about nine-thirty at night. When he looked out the door, he saw a monstrous bird standing in his yard. "It's like a bird, but it's not a bird," he said. "That animal is not from this world." The sighting of the strange bird didn�t end with the reports from Guajardo and the two policemen. Two sisters told of seeing a "big black bird" with "a face like a bat" near a pond outside of Brownsville. Reports of this creature continued to multiply in the early months of 1976 until finally a radio station offered a reward for the creature's capture. Soon after, a television station broadcast a picture of an alleged bird track measuring some twelve inches in length. As the media hype increased, the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department took action, fearing that hunters might mistake a large, rare and protected bird (like a whooping crane) for this mysterious creature. They made an announcement saying, "All birds are protected by state or federal law." At about this same time several Texas schoolteachers told of seeing the strange flying creature, with a wingspan of at least 12 feet across, while they were driving to work. One of them checked the school library and found a name for the animal: A pterosaur. The Pterosaurs Pterosaurs were an order of reptiles that lived and went extinct with the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. They were the first true flying animals that had vertebrae. Their wings were composed of a membrane of skin that stretched from the side of the body, along the arm, out to the tip of an enormously-elongated fourth finger, and then back to the ankle. Like a bat, they had no feathers. The Pteranodon, a member of the pterosaur family, may have skimmed along the coastal waters catching fish. It had a wingspan as big as 23 feet and a head almost seven feet long. (Copyright Lee Krystek 2003) Computer analysis of pterosaur fossils suggest that they were slow gliders, capable of making very tight airborne turns. A large pteranodon, with a wingspan of 30 feet, could turn in mid-flight in a circle only 34 feet in diameter. So what were extinct pterosaurs doing in Texas in the 20th century? Strangely enough, Texas hasn�t been the only place plagued by aerial, reptilian predators from the past. In 1923 a writer by the name of Frank Melland who worked in what was then northern Rhodesia, in Africa, told of a strange flying creature in his book In Witchbound Africa. According to Melland, the natives called this animal a kongamato. Its wing span was four to seven feet across and it had a long beak full of teeth. The wings were featherless and resembled those of a bat. Melland sent for some books he had at his home and showed a picture of a pterodactyl (a type of pterosaur) to the tribesmen. Melland reported that "every native present immediately and unhesitatingly picked it out and identified it as a kongamato." Melland wasn�t the only one to hear of this beast. In 1942 Col. R. S. Pitman wrote about reports he�d heard about a flying creature living in the same region as Melland�s kongamato: �the most amazing feature of this mystery beast is its suggested identity with a creature bat-and-birdlike in form on a gigantic scale strangely reminiscent of the prehistoric pterodactyl." Nobody has yet to find a living pterosaur either in Africa or Texas, however. Is it possible that what people were seeing was a very big, but conventional bird? The largest American bird is the California condor. With an impressive wingspan of over ten feet they would be large enough to explain some of the Texas reports. California condors, however, are a rare and endangered species and it seems unlikely that one would have wandered so far from its home on the west coast without being spotted and recognized by bird watchers for what it really was. Bird of Legend There is another bird, more legend than fact, that might fit the Texas reports: The thunderbird. Thunderbirds are a part of Native American myth. These huge, supernatural creatures were supposed to have caused thunder by flapping their wings and lightning by blinking their eyes. Though such powers are obviously in the realm of legend, there are occasional reports in certain sections of North America of sightings of a giant birds that seem to fit the thunderbird description. The forested region along the Allegheny Plateau of Pennsylvania seems to get more than its share of thunderbird reports. In 1969 the wife of a local sheriff spotted a huge bird sitting in the middle of a creek near their cabin. When it took off and unfurled its wings she estimated it was about 75 feet across. A more recent thunderbird account, a little further east, comes from the New Jersey coastline where in 1970 several people saw a flying creature with a "wingspread almost like an airplane." Texas Quetzalcoatlus Could a thunderbird have a wingspan as large as an airplane? The largest known flying animal of all time was a pterosaur called the Quetzalcoatlus. It had a wingspan as big as a small plane (over 40 feet) and weighed about 190 pounds. Unlike many of the other pterosaurs, Quetzalcoatlus lived inland and probably had a vulture-like existence. Its long neck would have helped it to "probe" dinosaur carcasses for meat. The Quetzalcoatlus, interestingly enough, brings us back to Texas. The first Quetzalcoatlus fossils were discovered in Big Bend National Park, Texas, in 1972, just four years before the first sightings of the Texas "Big Bird." Is there a connection? Have there been pterosaurs hiding in Texas for the last 65 million years? Or could it be the publicity surrounding the discovery of Quetzalcoatlus four years before triggered the misidentification of large birds like the sandhill crane, brown pelican or the vulture? We may never know, because after the two-month flap of sightings in 1976, reports of the big birds dwindled. The pterosaurs, if they ever existed, seem to have gone back into hiding. Perhaps not for forever, though. Six years later, on September 14, 1982, James Thompson was driving on a road near Los Fresnos, Texas, when he saw something large glide low over the highway just ahead of him. He stopped and stared at the animal that seemed to fly without moving its wings. Thompson reported the creature had a black or gray color. Its body appeared to be covered with a rough-textured skin. The wings, which were five or six feet across, had no feathers. When he got home, Thompson looked up the animal in a book. The book said it was a pterosaur............... PERSNONAL NOTE:: The Situation written here really did happen in my home town of an Benito, Texas...., However, it was not a " Feathered Flying Snake," Con Safos........ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From budelberger.richard at 9ONLINE.FR Fri Oct 22 22:30:00 2004 From: budelberger.richard at 9ONLINE.FR (Budelberger, Richard) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 00:30:00 +0200 Subject: Looking for Name of a List Member Message-ID: 2 brumaire an CCXIII (le 23 octobre 2004 d. c.-d. c. g.), 00h26. ---- Message d'origine ---- De : r. joe campbell À : Envoyé : mercredi 20 octobre 2004 23:56 Objet : Re: Looking for Name of a List Member > On Wed, 20 Oct 2004, Richley Crapo wrote: > >> A while back I asked for advice about how to treat a Nahuatl text I'm >> working on. Someone here commented that he and some colleagues are >> working on a text that will attempt, as closely as typesetting >> technology permits, to reproduce in detail the characteristics of a >> Nahuatl text. I have some questions about specific procedures and would >> like to contact that person again. >> >> If you've read this (or know who it was), please write me offline at >> rcrapo at cc.usu.edu. >> >> Richley > > > Richley, > > I think that there may be miequintin people who would be interested in > that information. |8-) Oui : Stafford Poole (), Barry D. Sell () -- et Louise Burkhart. Cf. et . R. B. From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Sun Oct 24 12:32:27 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 07:32:27 -0500 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: <20041022164333.62927.qmail@web40712.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tejanos were not Algonquian. There is no evidence of Algonquian speakers in that area before the Kickapoo were forced to move there from the north. The Kickapoo are located, along with their dialect brethren the Sauk-Fox-Mascouten in the area at the western end of Lake Erie prior to the Iroquoian catastrophe of the 1600s. They, along with other Algonquian groups, flee to the western side of Lake Michigan in the mid-17th century, particularly to the Wisconsin area. They never make it back home and after spending the 1700s in the Wisconsin-Illinois-Indiana area are forced across the Mississippi, half of them eventually making their way to Coahuila. A good place to start with Kickapoo history is volume 15 of the Smithsonian's /Handbook of the American Indian/. There is a full chapter on the Kickapoo with details about their historical ventures. Michael On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, DARKHORSE wrote: > So far this is what I have found..... > > > Kickapoo > > > > The Algonquian family includes several languages in the United States and Canada, such as Cheyenne, Arapaho, Cree, Ojibwa, and Fox, as well as the Kickapoo language of Mexico, spoken by a small group in the state of of Coahuila. Kickapoo is closely related to a larger group of the same name, in the state of Oklahoma, USA. The speakers of this language group arrived in Mexico in 1839. > > Maybe the Tejanos are of the Algonquian Language Family ? > > Que dicen Uds.? Noten el mapa ....There's the Rio Grande Valley Of Texas.... Hijole sera possible?!!! > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Sun Oct 24 19:03:03 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 15:03:03 -0400 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 24, 2004, at 8:32 AM, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > A good place to start with Kickapoo history is volume 15 of the > Smithsonian's /Handbook of the American Indian/. There is a full > chapter > on the Kickapoo with details about their historical ventures. > > Another useful reference book Is Lyle Campbell's American Indian Languages: The Historical Linguistics of Native America (Oxford University Press, 1997). There are index references to the Coahuilans' language throughout the volume, but the most germane ones are to be found on p. 144 (Coahuilteco) and pp. 297-304 (Coahuiltecan, i.e., the relationship of a number of languages including Coahuilteco). Lyle has charts of the languages of the Americas: North, Middle, and South with maps and discussions of historical relationships. This is a comprehensive book. On p. 153 is a chart of the Algonquian-Ritwan language family. There you can find Kickapoo (with its historic displacements to Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, and Coahuila) but not Coahuilteco, which is not an Algonquian language. A propósito of what is likely and what is not: Two languages of California (Wiyot and Yurok) are now accepted as being related to the Algonquian languages of north central and northeast North America despite the geographical odds against such a relationship. That's more remarkable than the displacement of Navajo/Apache from the Athabaskan languages of the Pacific Northwest. Fran From susana at LOSRANCHEROS.ORG Tue Oct 26 22:42:55 2004 From: susana at LOSRANCHEROS.ORG (S. Moraleda) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 00:42:55 +0200 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero Message-ID: I would apreciate it if someone could help me with the translation of the following (apparently XVII century, I am told) Nahuatl text from Guerrero. I've given it a try, but would like a detailed analysis of etymology et al. The transliteration is exactly as it was given to me. Tleno o tik temimikiko pan in tlaltikpaktli? San o ti mo ijiyotiko? San oti nemiko? Tlenika o ti nemiko? Keno o ti moyolitij? I've come up with: Que veniste a soñar en la tierra? Solo veniste a (resollar?) tomar aliento? Solo veniste a vivir? Para qué veniste a vivir? Como fuiste a vivir? Is the second and the fourth line a reverential construction? or a reflexive one? What are all those "ko" at the end? locative? Thank you. Susana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Tue Oct 26 23:05:19 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:05:19 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: <037a01c4bbad$43ea9580$5ccf623e@mexico> Message-ID: Susana, The use of the "k", "j" for saltillo, the "s", the unpossessed relational "-pan", and the word separation looks more like modern than colonial nahuatl. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Oct 26, 2004, at 5:42 PM, S. Moraleda wrote: > > > I would apreciate it if someone could help me with the translation of > the following (apparently XVII century, I am told) Nahuatl text from > Guerrero. I've given it a try, but would like a detailed analysis of > etymology et al. > The transliteration is exactly as it was given to me. >   > Tleno o tik temimikiko pan in tlaltikpaktli? > San o ti mo ijiyotiko? > San oti nemiko? > Tlenika o ti nemiko? > Keno o ti moyolitij? >   > I've come up with: >   > Que veniste a soñar en la tierra? > Solo veniste a (resollar?) tomar aliento? > Solo veniste a vivir? > Para qué veniste a vivir? > Como fuiste a vivir? >   > Is the second and the fourth line a reverential construction? or a > reflexive one? > What are all those "ko" at the end? locative? >   > Thank you. > Susana > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2734 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Wed Oct 27 15:22:57 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:22:57 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: <818C03FF-27A3-11D9-9FB4-003065C46A4A@mac.com> Message-ID: Susan and John, Rather than a contemporary text, it also might be an example of the memorializing wave that swept across southern Mexico from the late 1780s to 1840s which created or recreated "authentic" native documents, dating from 1517 to the 1670s, of all kinds and that used as a standard device an anachronistic antique orthography including the "k," that I think was in imitation of classical Greek texts, as well as the 16th-century Spanish substitution of "j" for "i." This orthography tends uniformly to use block lettering. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From carlossn at UI.BOE.ES Wed Oct 27 15:33:49 2004 From: carlossn at UI.BOE.ES (Carlos Santamarina) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:33:49 +0200 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark: Lo que cuentas me recuerda poderosamente a los códices Techialoyan, donde también parecen haberse buscado falsos arcaismos como aval de la autenticidad de documentos indígenas recién fabricados ¿puedes ampliar información o referencias sobre ese movimiento del que hablas? Gracias. Carlos Santamarina. Mark David Morris escribió: >Susan and John, > >Rather than a contemporary text, it also might be an example of the >*memorializing wave* that swept across southern Mexico from the late 1780s >to 1840s which *created or recreated "authentic" native documents*, dating >from 1517 to the 1670s, of all kinds and that used as a standard device an >*anachronistic antique orthography* including the "k," that I think was in >imitation of classical Greek texts, as well as the 16th-century Spanish >substitution of "j" for "i." This orthography tends uniformly to use >block lettering. > >Mark Morris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >La muerte tiene permiso a todo > >MDM, PhD Candidate >Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. > > > From idiez at MAC.COM Wed Oct 27 15:51:52 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:51:52 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark, The "j" in question does not substitute for an "i". It is used to mark the final aspiration of the preterite form of the class 3 verb mo-yolitia (causative reverential of yoli). John On Oct 27, 2004, at 10:22 AM, Mark David Morris wrote: > Susan and John, > > Rather than a contemporary text, it also might be an example of the > memorializing wave that swept across southern Mexico from the late > 1780s > to 1840s which created or recreated "authentic" native documents, > dating > from 1517 to the 1670s, of all kinds and that used as a standard > device an > anachronistic antique orthography including the "k," that I think was > in > imitation of classical Greek texts, as well as the 16th-century Spanish > substitution of "j" for "i." This orthography tends uniformly to use > block lettering. > > Mark Morris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~ > > La muerte tiene permiso a todo > > MDM, PhD Candidate > Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 27 17:34:30 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:34:30 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I Found This "CUENTO" in the Guerrero Nahuatl language: Utilizing the "J"....... On Tlakatl Iwan on Atemitl Se tlakatl okipix se atemitl. Yejwa okijtoj: �Nikalaktis on atemitl ijtik sen botella niman niktomawas. Niman tla yoniktomaw nikxipewas, niman ika on itlaken nikchijchiwas notampoltsin pampa sanoyej nikwelita. Kemaj melawak okichijchiw itampoltsin. Niman sanoyej kwaltsin okixtij. Niman on itampoltsin okitsotsonato kampa ilwipan. Ompa on tlakamej okwelkakilijkej, niman opew kitlajtoltiaj: ��Tlen, yolkatl itlaken on yejwan ika otikchijchi on motampoltsin? Niman yejwa okimijlij: �On yolkatl sanoyej weyi yolkatl. In okijtoj pampa xkinekiya kimijlis on tlen melawak. Niman sanoyej opew kitlajtoltiaj, okimijlij ika on itlaken on atemitl. Niman yejwa okimijlij: �In sanoyej kwajli para ika nankichijchiwaskej nemotampoltsin. Achtopa xkalaktikan ijtik sen botella, niman xtlakwaltikan sanoyej hasta kampa ma tomawi. Niman tla yotomaw xxipewakan. Niman ika on itlakentsin xchijchiwakan nemotampoltsin. Niman on tlakamej okijlijkej: �Ma timitskowilikan motampoltsin, niman tejwa okse tikchijchiwas. Niman yejwa okiminnamakiltij sanoyej patiyo. Yejwa okajkayajkej pampa xok keman okinextij okse itampoltsin yejwan kwaltsin ken on yejwan kipiyaya. Ijkon tej, tlami ikwento on tlakatl niman on atemitl. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US Wed Oct 27 20:06:55 2004 From: gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US (Fuentes, Gloria) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:06:55 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero Message-ID: What is the Translation? glo _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of DARKHORSE Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:35 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Nahuatl text from Guerrero I Found This "CUENTO" in the Guerrero Nahuatl language: Utilizing the "J"....... On Tlakatl Iwan on Atemitl Se tlakatl okipix se atemitl. Yejwa okijtoj: -Nikalaktis on atemitl ijtik sen botella niman niktomawas. Niman tla yoniktomaw nikxipewas, niman ika on itlaken nikchijchiwas notampoltsin pampa sanoyej nikwelita. Kemaj melawak okichijchiw itampoltsin. Niman sanoyej kwaltsin okixtij. Niman on itampoltsin okitsotsonato kampa ilwipan. Ompa on tlakamej okwelkakilijkej, niman opew kitlajtoltiaj: -¿Tlen, yolkatl itlaken on yejwan ika otikchijchi on motampoltsin? Niman yejwa okimijlij: -On yolkatl sanoyej weyi yolkatl. In okijtoj pampa xkinekiya kimijlis on tlen melawak. Niman sanoyej opew kitlajtoltiaj, okimijlij ika on itlaken on atemitl. Niman yejwa okimijlij: -In sanoyej kwajli para ika nankichijchiwaskej nemotampoltsin. Achtopa xkalaktikan ijtik sen botella, niman xtlakwaltikan sanoyej hasta kampa ma tomawi. Niman tla yotomaw xxipewakan. Niman ika on itlakentsin xchijchiwakan nemotampoltsin. Niman on tlakamej okijlijkej: -Ma timitskowilikan motampoltsin, niman tejwa okse tikchijchiwas. Niman yejwa okiminnamakiltij sanoyej patiyo. Yejwa okajkayajkej pampa xok keman okinextij okse itampoltsin yejwan kwaltsin ken on yejwan kipiyaya. Ijkon tej, tlami ikwento on tlakatl niman on atemitl. _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 28 15:42:10 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:42:10 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: <01015FD91DEF9547B915E66C722FF5920161EC5D@CHCCLUS01.sbccd.int> Message-ID: Hmm, I knew ya was gonna asketh moi that....... So here goes...... EL PIOJO Y EL HOMBRE Un hombre ten�a un piojo, y se dijo a s� mismo: �Voy a meter este piojo en una botella y lo voy a engordar. Y ya que lo engorde, lo voy a pelar y con su piel me voy a hacer un tambor, porque los tambores me gustan mucho. Y realmente hizo despu�s un tambor y lo hizo muy bonito. Entonces llev� su tambor a una fiesta y lo estuvo tocando. Como a la gente le gust� mucho su sonido, le comenzaron a preguntar: ��De qu� animal es la piel con que hiciste tu tambor? Y �l les contest�: �El animal que us� para hacer mi tambor es un gran animal. Esto les contest� porque no quer�a decir la verdad. Pero como le preguntaron mucho, les tuvo que decir que era piel de un piojo. Les dijo adem�s: �Su piel es muy buena para hacer tambores. Primero m�tanlo en una botella y denle de comer mucho hasta que engorde. Cuando ya est� gordo, p�lenlo y con su piel van a poder hacer su tambor. Entonces esas personas le dijeron: �V�ndenos tu tambor y te vuelves a hacer otro. Y �l si se los vendi�, y muy caro. Pero lo hab�an enga�ado, porque ya nunca pudo hacer otro tambor tan bonito como el que ten�a. As� es como termina este cuento del hombre y el piojo. nOW YOU TRANSLATE INTO ingles CHULA....... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From susana at LOSRANCHEROS.ORG Fri Oct 29 07:52:24 2004 From: susana at LOSRANCHEROS.ORG (S. Moraleda) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:52:24 +0200 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero Message-ID: Thanks for your comments, but maybe I didn't make my question clear. Actually it is the semantics and morphology with which I wanted help, and more specifically: And OK, I take it that it is a modern text. TLENO O TIK TEMIMIKIKO PAN IN TLALTICPAKTLI? Is "tleno" with a final "o" typical of the Guerrero dialect? Why a reduplication of the "mi" in "temimikiko"? Why a "co" termination for the preterite and not a "ca"? Why "tlalticpaktli" with a final "tli"? SAN O TI MO IJIYOTIKO? OK, "ihiyotia" is a reflexive verb, so it needs the "mo", but Why termination in "ko"? is this the "towards here" sense? SAN O TI NEMIKO? Again "co" and not "ca"? TLENIKA O TI NEMIKO? What is the meaning of "tlenika"? KENO O TI MOYOLITIJ? Why "keno" with a final "o"? is this typical of Guerrero? "Yolitia" is not a reflexive verb, but a causative, so it is a reverential construction, right? So why "otimoyolitih" and not "otimoyolitia"? Would the "ti" be the first person plural, given the termination in a glottal stop? But why then not "timoyolitiah"? THANKS AGAIN- Susana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US Fri Oct 29 13:33:58 2004 From: gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US (Fuentes, Gloria) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:33:58 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero Message-ID: Okay, Well I don't really know what a piojo is except for a lice??? (well!!) So anyways a man had this Piojo and he told himself he was going to save it in a jar and get it fat. And then when it gets real fat I am going to use its skin to make a drum, because he really liked the drums. So he made the drum and it was very pretty. Then he went to a celebration with his drum, and he was playing it for the people and they liked the sound of it a lot. They asked him from what animal did you get this skin to make this drum? He told the them that the animal he used to make his drum was a great animal, of course he wasn't telling the truth. But they kept on asking him so he finally told them it was the skin of a piojo. He also told them the skin is very good to make drums with. He told them how he first put the piojo in a jar and fattened him up, then they could take the skin to make their drum. The people wanted him to make another drum as beautiful as this one but he knew he could never make another one that pretty. And so this is the story of the man and his piojo. How is that translation. I know my dad is a full blood Mexican Mayan and I was even born in Zacatecas and can barely speak the language! YIKIES _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of DARKHORSE Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 8:42 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Nahuatl text from Guerrero Hmm, I knew ya was gonna asketh moi that....... So here goes...... EL PIOJO Y EL HOMBRE Un hombre tenía un piojo, y se dijo a sí mismo: -Voy a meter este piojo en una botella y lo voy a engordar. Y ya que lo engorde, lo voy a pelar y con su piel me voy a hacer un tambor, porque los tambores me gustan mucho. Y realmente hizo después un tambor y lo hizo muy bonito. Entonces llevó su tambor a una fiesta y lo estuvo tocando. Como a la gente le gustó mucho su sonido, le comenzaron a preguntar: -¿De qué animal es la piel con que hiciste tu tambor? Y él les contestó: -El animal que usé para hacer mi tambor es un gran animal. Esto les contestó porque no quería decir la verdad. Pero como le preguntaron mucho, les tuvo que decir que era piel de un piojo. Les dijo además: -Su piel es muy buena para hacer tambores. Primero métanlo en una botella y denle de comer mucho hasta que engorde. Cuando ya esté gordo, pélenlo y con su piel van a poder hacer su tambor. Entonces esas personas le dijeron: -Véndenos tu tambor y te vuelves a hacer otro. Y él si se los vendió, y muy caro. Pero lo habían engañado, porque ya nunca pudo hacer otro tambor tan bonito como el que tenía. Así es como termina este cuento del hombre y el piojo. nOW YOU TRANSLATE INTO ingles CHULA....... _____ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 29 16:16:39 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:16:39 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: <01015FD91DEF9547B915E66C722FF592095F78@CHCCLUS01.sbccd.int> Message-ID: Correcto Mundo as Fonzi said....... Poor Louse eh? You did very well Gloria... There are so many tales and songs that are still being passed on one in particular is that one and another one is "EL PIOJO Y LA PULGA" it is a children's song... Until again..... Man Ze Kualli Tonalli Ximo Panoltik ( May You Spend a Good Day! )....... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US Fri Oct 29 16:23:35 2004 From: gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US (Fuentes, Gloria) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:23:35 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero Message-ID: Okay I want to see it...smile! gloria _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of DARKHORSE Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 9:17 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Nahuatl text from Guerrero Correcto Mundo as Fonzi said....... Poor Louse eh? You did very well Gloria... There are so many tales and songs that are still being passed on one in particular is that one and another one is "EL PIOJO Y LA PULGA" it is a children's song... Until again..... Man Ze Kualli Tonalli Ximo Panoltik ( May You Spend a Good Day! )....... _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 29 16:50:11 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:50:11 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: <01015FD91DEF9547B915E66C722FF5920161EC60@CHCCLUS01.sbccd.int> Message-ID: GLORIA , Aqui esta, pero no en Nahuatl..... No lo encontre en nahuatl.... JUEGOS PARA NI�OSEL PIOJO Y LA PULGA El piojo y la pulga se van a casar, si no se han casado es por falta de pan. Responde la hormiga desde su hormigal: -que se hagan las bodas, que yo dar� el pan. -�Albricias, albricias, ya el pan lo tenemos! Pero ahora la carne, �d�nde la hallaremos? Un lobo responde desde aquellos cerros: -que se hagan las bodas, yo dar� becerros. -�Albricias, albricias, ya carne tenemos! Pero ahora el vino, �d�nde lo hallaremos? Responde un mosquito de lo alto de un pino: -que se hagan las bodas, que yo dar� el vino. -�Albricias, albricias, ya el vino tenemos! Pero ahora quien toque, �d�nde lo hallaremos? Responde la ara�a desde su ara�al: -que se hagan las bodas, yo ir� a tocar. -�Albricias, albricias, quien toque tenemos! Pero ahora quien baile, �d�nde lo hallaremos? Responde una mona desde su monal: -que se hagan las bodas, que yo ir� a bailar. -�Albricias, albricias, quien baile tenemos! Pero ahora quien cante, �d�nde lo hallaremos? Responde una rana, desde su ranal: -que se hagan las bodas, que yo ir� a cantar. -�Albricias, albricias, quien cante tenemos, pero ahora madrina, �d�nde la hallaremos? Responde la gata desde la cocina: -que se hagan las bodas, yo ser� madrina. -�Albricias, albricias, madrina tenemos, pero ahora padrino, �d�nde lo hallaremos? Responde un rat�n, de su ratonal: -que se hagan las bodas, yo ire a apadrinar. Se hizo la boda, hubo mucho vino, salt� la madrina y se comi� al padrino. En la madrugada, cuando el sol sali�, no hubo ni un changuito que no se rasc�. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Fri Oct 29 17:21:11 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:21:11 +0100 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: <20041029165011.8980.qmail@web40703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: --- DARKHORSE wrote: > GLORIA , > Aqui esta, pero no en Nahuatl..... No lo encontre en nahuatl.... > JUEGOS PARA NIÑOSEL PIOJO Y LA PULGA > El piojo y la pulga se van a casar, ... Here is an Altavista translation, which I tidied. The words in [square brackets] are Spanish words that Altavista's translator refused at. GAMES FOR CHILDREN the LOUSE and the FLEA The louse and the flea are going away to marry, if they have not married is by lack of bread. Responds the ant from his ants'-nest: - that becomes the weddings, that I will give the bread. - Rewards, rewards, already the bread we have it! But now the meat, where we will find it? A wolf responds from those hills: - that the weddings become, I will give yearling calves. - Rewards, rewards, already meat we have! But now the wine, where we will find it? Responds a mosquito of the stop of a pine: - that becomes the weddings, that I will give the wine. - Rewards, rewards, already the wine we have! But now who touches, where we will find it? Responds the spider from its web: - that the weddings become, I will touch. - Rewards, rewards, that touch we have! But now who dances, where we will find it? [Mona] responds one from its [monal]: - that become the weddings, that I will dance. - Rewards, rewards, that dance we have! But now who sings, where we will find it? Responds a frog, from his frog pond: - that become the weddings, that I will sing. - Rewards, rewards, that sing we have, but now godmother, where we will find it? Responds the cat from the kitchen: - that the weddings become, I will be godmother. - Rewards, rewards, godmother we have, but now padrino, where we will find it? Responds a mouse, of its mouse-hole: - that the weddings become, I will go to support. The wedding became, had much wine, jumped the godmother and it ate to the padrino. At dawn, when the sun left, there was not a [changuito] that not [rascó]. From gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US Fri Oct 29 18:47:54 2004 From: gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US (Fuentes, Gloria) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:47:54 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero Message-ID: Okay well even if not in Nahuatl, I have it in english and can translate it to spanish. Thank you, gloria -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of ANTHONY APPLEYARD Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 10:21 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Nahuatl text from Guerrero --- DARKHORSE wrote: > GLORIA , > Aqui esta, pero no en Nahuatl..... No lo encontre en nahuatl.... > JUEGOS PARA NIÑOSEL PIOJO Y LA PULGA > El piojo y la pulga se van a casar, ... Here is an Altavista translation, which I tidied. The words in [square brackets] are Spanish words that Altavista's translator refused at. GAMES FOR CHILDREN the LOUSE and the FLEA The louse and the flea are going away to marry, if they have not married is by lack of bread. Responds the ant from his ants'-nest: - that becomes the weddings, that I will give the bread. - Rewards, rewards, already the bread we have it! But now the meat, where we will find it? A wolf responds from those hills: - that the weddings become, I will give yearling calves. - Rewards, rewards, already meat we have! But now the wine, where we will find it? Responds a mosquito of the stop of a pine: - that becomes the weddings, that I will give the wine. - Rewards, rewards, already the wine we have! But now who touches, where we will find it? Responds the spider from its web: - that the weddings become, I will touch. - Rewards, rewards, that touch we have! But now who dances, where we will find it? [Mona] responds one from its [monal]: - that become the weddings, that I will dance. - Rewards, rewards, that dance we have! But now who sings, where we will find it? Responds a frog, from his frog pond: - that become the weddings, that I will sing. - Rewards, rewards, that sing we have, but now godmother, where we will find it? Responds the cat from the kitchen: - that the weddings become, I will be godmother. - Rewards, rewards, godmother we have, but now padrino, where we will find it? Responds a mouse, of its mouse-hole: - that the weddings become, I will go to support. The wedding became, had much wine, jumped the godmother and it ate to the padrino. At dawn, when the sun left, there was not a [changuito] that not [rascó]. From gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US Fri Oct 29 19:11:27 2004 From: gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US (Fuentes, Gloria) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:11:27 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero Message-ID: Thank you, I missed this one. _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of DARKHORSE Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 9:50 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Nahuatl text from Guerrero GLORIA , Aqui esta, pero no en Nahuatl..... No lo encontre en nahuatl.... JUEGOS PARA NIÑOS EL PIOJO Y LA PULGA El piojo y la pulga se van a casar, si no se han casado es por falta de pan. Responde la hormiga desde su hormigal: -que se hagan las bodas, que yo daré el pan. -¡Albricias, albricias, ya el pan lo tenemos! Pero ahora la carne, ¿dónde la hallaremos? Un lobo responde desde aquellos cerros: -que se hagan las bodas, yo daré becerros. -¡Albricias, albricias, ya carne tenemos! Pero ahora el vino, ¿dónde lo hallaremos? Responde un mosquito de lo alto de un pino: -que se hagan las bodas, que yo daré el vino. -¡Albricias, albricias, ya el vino tenemos! Pero ahora quien toque, ¿dónde lo hallaremos? Responde la araña desde su arañal: -que se hagan las bodas, yo iré a tocar. -¡Albricias, albricias, quien toque tenemos! Pero ahora quien baile, ¿dónde lo hallaremos? Responde una mona desde su monal: -que se hagan las bodas, que yo iré a bailar. -¡Albricias, albricias, quien baile tenemos! Pero ahora quien cante, ¿dónde lo hallaremos? Responde una rana, desde su ranal: -que se hagan las bodas, que yo iré a cantar. -¡Albricias, albricias, quien cante tenemos, pero ahora madrina, ¿dónde la hallaremos? Responde la gata desde la cocina: -que se hagan las bodas, yo seré madrina. -¡Albricias, albricias, madrina tenemos, pero ahora padrino, ¿dónde lo hallaremos? Responde un ratón, de su ratonal: -que se hagan las bodas, yo ire a apadrinar. Se hizo la boda, hubo mucho vino, saltó la madrina y se comió al padrino. En la madrugada, cuando el sol salió, no hubo ni un changuito que no se rascó. _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Sat Oct 30 01:40:42 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 20:40:42 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: <037a01c4bbad$43ea9580$5ccf623e@mexico> Message-ID: Susana, So far, it looks like you're doing well with the translation. I am almost wholly unfamiliar with the particulars of Nahuatl in Guerrero. I will offer a couple of tips that might help resolve your questions about the text. First, it is always helpful to put the text into semantic order, i.e. make word divisions. Second, I think you'd want to translate ihiyotia as "suffer" as in suffering the cares and fatigues of this world. I don't know why timoyolitih has a final aspiration but I think the context would best suggest second person singular (you) as the subject. The -ko is the singular (usually) "come" that modifies the verbs of lines 1-3, as you noted in your translation. I think the "mo" is more reflexive than reverential, although I, personally, don't really recognize a fast distinction between the two, but think instead of different connotations of indirectness. Consider, for example, that often the over-use of the reflexive in Mexican Spanish is not exactly to describe the type of action, but to give the speech courtesy, e.g. "se solto el alambre del poste y los cochinitos se metieron en la milpa." In this case, however, I think it mostly is signaling the action in the subject. Finally, I think the text plays with the double sense of nemi as live and walk/move, nenemi usually being used to talk about walking around while yoli refers to being quick with life, animate, so there is some kind of metaphysical significance in juxtaposing the two. Mark Morris On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, S. Moraleda wrote: > I would apreciate it if someone could help me with the translation of the following (apparently XVII century, I am told) Nahuatl text from Guerrero. I've given it a try, but would like a detailed analysis of etymology et al. > The transliteration is exactly as it was given to me. > > Tleno o tik temimikiko pan in tlaltikpaktli? > San o ti mo ijiyotiko? > San oti nemiko? > Tlenika o ti nemiko? > Keno o ti moyolitij? > > I've come up with: > > Que veniste a so�ar en la tierra? > Solo veniste a (resollar?) tomar aliento? > Solo veniste a vivir? > Para qu� veniste a vivir? > Como fuiste a vivir? > > Is the second and the fourth line a reverential construction? or a reflexive one? > What are all those "ko" at the end? locative? > > Thank you. > Susana > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From susana at LOSRANCHEROS.ORG Wed Oct 6 12:29:08 2004 From: susana at LOSRANCHEROS.ORG (S. Moraleda) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 14:29:08 +0200 Subject: Wolf's dictionary Message-ID: Acabo de estar en Mexico, en el Instituto de Investigaciones Historicas de la UNAM (fui a comprar el libro de gramatica Nahuatl de Thelma Sullivan y el maravilloso libro de De Olmos) y vi en la vitrina un diccionario espanol-nahuatl escrito por un tal "Wolf". Ser? que soy ignorante, pero nunca habia oido hablar de este senor. Alguien podria esclarecerme quien es y que opinan de su obra??? Gracias, Susana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From susana at LOSRANCHEROS.ORG Wed Oct 6 12:29:16 2004 From: susana at LOSRANCHEROS.ORG (S. Moraleda) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 14:29:16 +0200 Subject: Plaza de las 3 Culturas Message-ID: De casualidad alguien tendria la version en Nahuatl de la placa que esta en la Plaza de las 3 Culturas: "EL 13 DE AGOSTO DE 1521 HEROICAMENTE DEFENDIDO POR CUAUHTEMOC CAYO TLALTELOLCO EN PODER DE HERNAN CORTES NO FUE TRIUNFO NI DERROTA FUE EL DOLOROSO NACIMIENTO DEL PUEBLO MESTIZO QUE ES EL MEXICO DE HOY" Mil gracias. Susana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX Sun Oct 10 17:59:22 2004 From: dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX (David Wright) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 12:59:22 -0500 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: On September 26, after a few messages summing up Jane H. Hill's article "Proto-Uto-Aztecan: a community of cultivators in Central Mexico?" (American Anthropologist 103:4, 913-934), Richley Crapo asked "What's your assessment of how widely she's been accepted?" and didn't get much of a response, at least not on the list. I meant to write something then but didn't. I just found a file card with a message I sent to George Cowgill two years ago about Hill's proposal and thought I'd send it to the list, with a few clarifications. Here it is: Hill's case that the Uto-Aztecans spread form south to north looks very reasonable. I never liked Manrique's linguistic maps with the ethnic billiard balls forever knocking one another southward. Okham's razor cuts the movement of entire linguistic chains from one region to another right out of the picture. The big problem with Hill's paper, and the way it has been received by the scholarly community, lies in the vagueness of the geographic terminology, bouncing back and forth between "Mesoamerica" and "central Mexico", without defining the scope of "central Mexico". When Hill speaks of the initial Proto-Uto-Aztecan (PUA) expansion on p. 916, "north through western Mexico" is only slightly more specific. The best we get is that Corachol and Aztecan speakers descend from "the northwestern quadrant of the region" (p. 916 again); exactly what region she is quadrisecting is left up to the reader's imagination. If this "northwest quadrant" means any part of the Jalisco/Colima/Nayarit region, then I agree with Hill on the location of the Nahua/Cora/Huichol homeland, as I suggested in an article in Relaciones (no. 72, 1997) a few years ago. But on pp. 924-925, in the division "The Homeland of the Aztecans", Hill gets vague again, suggesting a Proto-Aztecan homeland "within the tropics" (a geographic referent that gives us only a northern limit, ignoring changes in altitude, rainfall and vegetation). >From there a Big Leap is taken, suggesting that Nahuas were resposible for Early Classic Teotihuacan art, with no more evidence than the presence of flower metaphors in Nahuatl language and Teotihuacan art (probably a human universal, certainly so in Mesoamerica), a quick invocation of Daken's and Wichmann's article on the origin of the word "cacao" (without mentioning that these authors [p. 69] make a cautious division between hard linguistic evidence and speculative interpretation in their paper), and a citation of a very brief Web article which attempts to give a Nahua phonetic reading of the Maya Ahau sign (a very small statistical sampling, leaving open the possibility of coincidence). Floral symbolism at Teotihuacan aside, the last two lines of reasoning for Nahuas at Teotihuacan can be classified as non sequitur fallacies, since Nahua linguistic influence in southeastern Mesoamerica wouldn't necessarily have originated at Teotihuacan, the biggest game in town, but certainly not the only one. Networks of commercial and cultural interaction united all regions of Mesoamerica (and beyond). I have no problem with Nahuas at Teotihuacan, but the city clearly emerged from a cultural substratum with deep roots in the central valleys of Mexico (the valley of Mexico plus bordering valleys all around), a region that can safely be called (on linguistic evidence, also taking into account material culture and historical traditions) the Proto-Otopamean homeland, with some other Otomanguean speakers on its southeastern margins. That the city was of pan-Mesoamerican significance and welcomed immigrants from several other regions (including Western Mexico) is evident, but I just don't see evidence of a major western influx before the Epiclassic. (I am, however, looking harder at the Preclassic/Protoclassic connections between the various regions of Western and Central Mexico, and am willing to accept an early and significant cultural exchange between these regions, which could well involve Proto-Nahuas.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU Sun Oct 10 22:18:54 2004 From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 16:18:54 -0600 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: Thanks for your comments. This is quite interesting. Richley >>> dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX 10/10/04 11:59 AM >>> On September 26, after a few messages summing up Jane H. Hill's article "Proto-Uto-Aztecan: a community of cultivators in Central Mexico?" (American Anthropologist 103:4, 913-934), Richley Crapo asked "What's your assessment of how widely she's been accepted?" and didn't get much of a response, at least not on the list. I meant to write something then but didn't. I just found a file card with a message I sent to George Cowgill two years ago about Hill's proposal and thought I'd send it to the list, with a few clarifications. Here it is: Hill's case that the Uto-Aztecans spread form south to north looks very reasonable. I never liked Manrique's linguistic maps with the ethnic billiard balls forever knocking one another southward. Okham's razor cuts the movement of entire linguistic chains from one region to another right out of the picture. The big problem with Hill's paper, and the way it has been received by the scholarly community, lies in the vagueness of the geographic terminology, bouncing back and forth between "Mesoamerica" and "central Mexico", without defining the scope of "central Mexico". When Hill speaks of the initial Proto-Uto-Aztecan (PUA) expansion on p. 916, "north through western Mexico" is only slightly more specific. The best we get is that Corachol and Aztecan speakers descend from "the northwestern quadrant of the region" (p. 916 again); exactly what region she is quadrisecting is left up to the reader's imagination. If this "northwest quadrant" means any part of the Jalisco/Colima/Nayarit region, then I agree with Hill on the location of the Nahua/Cora/Huichol homeland, as I sugested in an article in Relaciones (no. 72, 1997) a few years ago. But on pp. 924-925, in the division "The Homeland of the Aztecans", Hill gets vague again, suggesting a Proto-Aztecan homeland "within the tropics" (a geographic referent that gives us only a northern limit, ignoring changes in altitude, rainfall and vegetation). From there a Big Leap is taken, suggesting that Nahuas were resposible for Early Classic Teotihuacan art, with no more evidence than the presence of flower metaphors in Nahuatl language and Teotihuacan art (probably a human universal, certainly so in Mesoamerica), a quick invocation of Daken's and Wichmann's article on the origin of the word "cacao" (without mentioning that these authors [p. 69] make a cautious division between hard linguistic evidence and speculative interpretation in their paper), and a citation of a very brief Web article which attempts to give a Nahua phonetic reading of the Maya Ahau sign (a very small statistical sampling, leaving open the possibility of coincidence). Floral symbolism at Teotihuacan aside, the last two lines of reasoning for Nahuas at Teotihuacan can be classified as non sequitur fallacies, since Nahua linguistic influence in southeastern Mesoamerica wouldn't necessarily have originated at Teotihuacan, the biggest game in town, but certainly not the only one. Networks of commercial and cultural interaction united all regions of Mesoamerica (and beyond). I have no problem with Nahuas at Teotihuacan, but the city clearly emerged from a cultural substratum with deep roots in the central valleys of Mexico (the valley of Mexico plus bordering valleys all around), a region that can safely be called (on linguistic evidence, also taking into account material culture and historical traditions) the Proto-Otopamean homeland, with some other Otomanguean speakers on its southeastern margins. That the city was of pan-Mesoamerican significance and welcomed immigrants from several other regions (including Western Mexico) is evident, but I just don'tsee evidence of a major western influx before the Epiclassic. (I am, however, looking harder at the Preclassic/Protoclassic connections between the various regions of Western and Central Mexico, and am willing to accept an early and significant cultural exchange between these regions, which could well involve Proto-Nahuas.) From ECOLING at AOL.COM Mon Oct 11 00:59:27 2004 From: ECOLING at AOL.COM (Lloyd Anderson) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:59:27 EDT Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: Not sure whether the following has been mentioned in this thread (I haven't read every single message, I suspect). Terry Kaufman argues from his studies of loanwords that Teotihuacan had an elite from a hypothesized third branch of the Mixe-Zoquean family (that is, a branch separate from Mixean and from Zoquean), and that commoners were perhaps Totonacan. His studies yield a series of contour lines showing the largest numbers of loan words from this source near Teo, and progressively fewer as one moves out from there. That is of course not Nahua. Terry presented some of this material at a Dumbarton Oaks conference, which means it will be some time before that is in print. The data was at that time not yet displayed to make these contours visually obvious. Hopefully it will be before long. My earlier understanding of what justified a traditional view of UA as having migrated from the North to the South, dropping off a part of the population at points along the way, had been that the family tree had the largest number of deep branches in the north, and progressively shallower branches as one got closer to Cora-Huichol and to Nahua in the south. It is of course merely a traditional rule-of-thumb that our default conclusion should be an origin near where there are the largest number of such branches represented. Perhaps that reasoning can be overridden. Has that evidence been completely rewritten or somehow discounted? If we have evidence from particular loanwords on corn which seems to contradict that older framework, perhaps some clever person can figure out a new synthesis. (It is some time since I read Hill's paper on this subject, I'm hoping that someone will point m to a message or will produce a message which gives a good summary of the state of the arguments, what is clear now and what is not.) I much fear that there is a bias in investigations towards results which involve Nahua, simply because we have preservation of far more information about Nahua speakers and their language and culture than we do about others. Is that taken into account in any evaluations of probabilities or even plausibilities? Best wishes, Lloyd Anderson Ecological Linguistics From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Mon Oct 11 01:42:45 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:42:45 -0500 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland In-Reply-To: <65.35f38c23.2e9b34ef@aol.com> Message-ID: Dear List, Yes, this is interesting and I am not competent enough in the details to raise many hard substantive points about the matter. But, the first question that I ask myself is how did the PUA linguistic family get into the Americas and into Mesoamerica? If you take an expansive view of the Otomanguean family and affinitive branches, there is a general extension of these languages over central, southeastern and south central Mesoamerica from the Panuco River to Subtiaba. From there, it is easy to conclude there was an westward bound intrusion of UA (as Nahuatl) into the central and southern area (and in at least two major waves as Dakin and Wichann describe), fragmenting and altering the older Otomanguean languages spread through the region. If UA originated within the Mesoamerican cultural sphere, why would it present itself clearly as an irruption into a landscape of otherwise affinitive languages? I would still be inclined, hence, to view UA's arrival into western Mesoamerica a consequence of southern migrations. That does not discount the possibility, I believe, that a "Mesoamericanized" UA then returned north with agricultural cultivators. If anyone sees any big problems with this hypothesis, I would really like to hear about it since (barring a significant epiphany) this is what I will tell my students in winter survey course of Mesoamerican civilization. best, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX Mon Oct 11 17:04:21 2004 From: mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX (Mario Marquez) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:04:21 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sobre_don_Juan_y_uso_de__las_pir=E1mides?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Colegas, De todas las teor?as posibles que han tratado de explicar el origen y funci?n de las Pir?mides en Mesoam?rica, me ha sorprendido encontrar una explicaci?n embebida en las p?ginas del Libro "El don del Aguila" escrito por Carlos Castaneda. Haciendo un repaso, puedo comentar que Carlos Castaneda es conocido por la edicion de varios libros orientados al estudio -en un inicio antropol?gico- de algunas hierbas psicotr?picas que han usado los indios Yaquis (del norte de M?xico ) para alterar su consciencia y realizar algunas cosas que la gente com?n llama Brujer?a. El mayor brujo, llamado Juan Matus se convierte en algun momento en el mentor de Carlos. Este se hace su aprendiz y desde l970 est? aprendiendo un conocimiento legado por milenios en la tradici?n oral de los pueblos de prehisp?nicos que tiene por funci?n aprender todas las realidades que el ser humano puede alcanzar. Hago esta referencia, porque Carlos realiza una cr?nica de su aprendizaje. Y en esta cr?nica pregunt? a Don Juan sobre el uso y funci?n de las pir?mides, a lo que Don Juan contesta que fueron lugares enfocados a desarrollar las habilidades psiquicas de los brujos precolombinos. Teotihuacan, Tula, Chich?n Itza, Monte alban, solo son resquicios de monumentos creados para el incremento de estos "poderes". Los brujos de anta?o se sentaban a concentrar su atenci?n en puntos particulares de las pir?mides logrando desconectarse del "mundo real" de manera que alteraban su visi?n y su concepci?n del mundo. Seg?n don Juan, no solo en M?xico se produjo este entrenamiento, sino que en todo el mundo. Parece que hubo una ?poca en que estos "misterios" fueron ense?ados en diferentes partes del mundo, logrando que las civilizaciones se desarrollaran al m?ximo. Don Juan no lo dice, pero quiz? Pir?mides como la de Giza tuvo como objetivo ayudar a los estudiantes de los misterios "herm?ticos" a desarrollar sus facultades psiquicas. Por otra parte hay monumentos majestuosos como en Stongehedge en Inglaterra donde posiblemente los Druidas hac?an otro tanto. Podr?amos quiz? relacionar a miles de monumentos en todo el planeta con este objetivo; hacer que el iniciado centrara su atenci?n plena para despertar sus facultades mentales, f?sicas y espirituales. El punto de mencionar esto, es conocer si alguien dentro de esta excelente lista de correos tiene informaci?n relacionada con lo que acabo de exponer. Si es as?, ser?a muy interesante para m? el que la pudiera compartir. Saludos, Mario M?rquez From tonantzn at CHORUS.NET Mon Oct 11 17:23:02 2004 From: tonantzn at CHORUS.NET (Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:23:02 -0500 Subject: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids Message-ID: Mario Marquez comments on Casta?eda's hypothesis of the function and origin of pyramids in Mesoamerica (as outlined below) does not take into account one important feature of the pyramids of Mesoamerica: the temple (or the dual temples) at the apex of the pyramids. What was the function of these temples at the top of the pyramids? Why do some pyramids have temples (Tenochtitlan, e.g. the pyramid of el Templo Mayor) and some don't (Teotihuacan, e.g., the pyramid of the Sun)? Obviously, there is more going on here than what Marquez and Casta?eda propose below. Teotihuacan, Tula, Chich?n Itza, Monte alban, solo son resquicios de monumentos creados para el incremento de estos "poderes". Los brujos de anta?o se sentaban a concentrar su atenci?n en puntos particulares de las pir?mides logrando desconectarse del "mundo real" de manera que alteraban su visi?n y su concepci?n del mundo. Podr?amos quiz? relacionar a miles de monumentos en todo el planeta con este objetivo; hacer que el iniciado centrara su atenci?n plena para despertar sus facultades mentales, f?sicas y espirituales. Is the temple(s) on top of the pyramid a late development? Was the vision and conception of the world transformed from an awakening of people's psychic and spiritual consciousness to a mode of worship, ritual and ceremonial center based on their own (or a new) understanding of Ultimate Reality? These are the questions that are not accounted for in the Casta?eda/Marquez hypothesis. I would be interested to know what other Listeros think about this. Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc Independent Scholar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 11 17:30:21 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 10:30:21 -0700 Subject: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids In-Reply-To: <002301c4afb6$f83a8570$4cee0b45@JuanAlvarez> Message-ID: Not to get off this subject matter...... But does anyone know what "COAHUILA " mean? The people of Texas ( TEJAS ) were called "COAHUILTECANS" just wondering...The CADDOS say that *TEJAS* is a word from their language, I say not... Later... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX Mon Oct 11 18:49:08 2004 From: mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX (Mario Marquez) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:49:08 -0600 Subject: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids and TOLTECS In-Reply-To: <002301c4afb6$f83a8570$4cee0b45@JuanAlvarez> Message-ID: Juan, Thanks for your comments. I can not support Castaneda?s hypothesis. I?m just wanted to share it because it would be an alternative explanation to a worship inherited from ancient cultures in Mesosamerica. I would like to say something more ; Don Juan Matus expose that he ( and Carlos of course ) belongs to an ancient culture, in fact , Toltec Culture. Castanenda?s book ?El don del Aguila? propose a Toltec civilitation who made temples to focus an special attention ( attention is a concept to awake a spirituyal consciouness) . The top of one temple would be a point of a superior attention ? I do not know , I?m just playing with ideas ? because many arqueologist says pyramids were builted in layers at different times. It could be like a trainning were subject ?candidate to this mysteries- took many years. Toltecs means ?builders?. What is the relation between Pyramids, magicians and toltecs ? I?d really like to know more comments to this topic. Regards, Mario Marquez -----Mensaje original----- De: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] En nombre de Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc Enviado el: Lunes, 11 de Octubre de 2004 11:23 a.m. Para: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Asunto: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids Mario Marquez comments on Casta?eda's hypothesis of the function and origin of pyramids in Mesoamerica (as outlined below) does not take into account one important feature of the pyramids of Mesoamerica: the temple (or the dual temples) at the apex of the pyramids. What was the function of these temples at the top of the pyramids? Why do some pyramids have temples (Tenochtitlan, e.g. the pyramid of el Templo Mayor) and some don't (Teotihuacan, e.g., the pyramid of the Sun)? Obviously, there is more going on here than what Marquez and Casta?eda propose below. Teotihuacan, Tula, Chich?n Itza, Monte alban, solo son resquicios de monumentos creados para el incremento de estos "poderes". Los brujos de anta?o se sentaban a concentrar su atenci?n en puntos particulares de las pir?mides logrando desconectarse del "mundo real" de manera que alteraban su visi?n y su concepci?n del mundo. Podr?amos quiz? relacionar a miles de monumentos en todo el planeta con este objetivo; hacer que el iniciado centrara su atenci?n plena para despertar sus facultades mentales, f?sicas y espirituales. Is the temple(s) on top of the pyramid a late development? Was the vision and conception of the world transformed from an awakening of people's psychic and spiritual consciousness to a mode of worship, ritual and ceremonial center based on their own (or a new) understanding of Ultimate Reality? These are the questions that are not accounted for in the Casta?eda/Marquez hypothesis. I would be interested to know what other Listeros think about this. Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc Independent Scholar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX Mon Oct 11 18:56:31 2004 From: mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX (Mario Marquez) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:56:31 -0600 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: <20041011173021.22003.qmail@web40713.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I knew, Coahuila comes from Coatl = serpent and Huila = Bird. It is like ?Serpent that flies ? In Fact, Oficial name is ?Coahuila de Zaragoza? because General Ignacio Zaragoza was born there. Mario M?rquez -----Mensaje original----- De: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] En nombre de DARKHORSE Enviado el: Lunes, 11 de Octubre de 2004 11:30 a.m. Para: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Asunto: Re: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids Not to get off this subject matter...... But does anyone know what "COAHUILA " mean? The people of Texas ( TEJAS ) were called "COAHUILTECANS" just wondering...The CADDOS say that *TEJAS* is a word from their language, I say not... Later... _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 11 18:01:16 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:01:16 -0700 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: <004d01c4afc4$062dc450$6afea8c0@MARIO> Message-ID: The way I gathered, Teca(s) means "People" Correct? Thus "COAHUILTECANS" means "People of the Flying Serpent?" Thanks... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tonantzn at CHORUS.NET Mon Oct 11 18:24:11 2004 From: tonantzn at CHORUS.NET (Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 13:24:11 -0500 Subject: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids Message-ID: Hola Carnal, Good to know you are out there bato! W.W. Newcomb, Jr. in his book, The Indians of Texas (UT Press) does not address the etymology of "COAHUILA" and according to him, these group belonged to "Hokan group of languages". (See, page 32). Mario M?rquez suggests a Nahuatl language etymology, but I have some misgivings about this. Concerning "Tejas".. well, Newcomb uses the term "Teyas" but whether "Tejas" comes from the Caddoan language is not entirely clear even to Newcomb. Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc ----- Original Message ----- From: DARKHORSE To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 12:30 PM Subject: Re: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids Not to get off this subject matter...... But does anyone know what "COAHUILA " mean? The people of Texas ( TEJAS ) were called "COAHUILTECANS" just wondering...The CADDOS say that *TEJAS* is a word from their language, I say not... Later... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tonantzn at CHORUS.NET Mon Oct 11 18:27:43 2004 From: tonantzn at CHORUS.NET (Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 13:27:43 -0500 Subject: Coahuila Message-ID: Mario, Where is "Coahuila de Zaragoza" present day? Is it in Mexico or Texas? The reason I am asking is this. Most Chicanos, myself included, thought Ignacio Zaragoza was born in Texas. Juan ----- Original Message ----- From: Mario Marquez To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 1:56 PM Subject: Coahuila I knew, Coahuila comes from Coatl = serpent and Huila = Bird. It is like "Serpent that flies " In Fact, Oficial name is "Coahuila de Zaragoza" because General Ignacio Zaragoza was born there. Mario M?rquez -----Mensaje original----- De: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] En nombre de DARKHORSE Enviado el: Lunes, 11 de Octubre de 2004 11:30 a.m. Para: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Asunto: Re: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids Not to get off this subject matter...... But does anyone know what "COAHUILA " mean? The people of Texas ( TEJAS ) were called "COAHUILTECANS" just wondering...The CADDOS say that *TEJAS* is a word from their language, I say not... Later... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 11 18:30:26 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:30:26 -0700 Subject: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids In-Reply-To: <005701c4afbf$83139710$4cee0b45@JuanAlvarez> Message-ID: Orale ese, my sentiments exactly..... I guess we should just along eh? The Caddo are actually nice people I've met many of them... And some do speak Spanish... They don't even know if they built those mounds in Texas or they are not exactly sure... We need a TIME MACHINE Bro...Hehehe..... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX Mon Oct 11 19:45:58 2004 From: mario.marquez at OMEGANETWORKS.COM.MX (Mario Marquez) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 13:45:58 -0600 Subject: Coahuila and Zaragoza In-Reply-To: <005f01c4afc0$003a5120$4cee0b45@JuanAlvarez> Message-ID: Well, I?m sorry. I must correct information Coahuila de Zaragoza is in M?xico. Ignacio Zaragoza was born in Texas, when Texas was part of Mexico. Regards, -----Mensaje original----- De: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] En nombre de Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc Enviado el: Lunes, 11 de Octubre de 2004 12:28 p.m. Para: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Asunto: Re: Coahuila Mario, Where is "Coahuila de Zaragoza" present day? Is it in Mexico or Texas? The reason I am asking is this. Most Chicanos, myself included, thought Ignacio Zaragoza was born in Texas. Juan ----- Original Message ----- From: Mario Marquez To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 1:56 PM Subject: Coahuila I knew, Coahuila comes from Coatl = serpent and Huila = Bird. It is like ?Serpent that flies ? In Fact, Oficial name is ?Coahuila de Zaragoza? because General Ignacio Zaragoza was born there. Mario M?rquez -----Mensaje original----- De: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] En nombre de DARKHORSE Enviado el: Lunes, 11 de Octubre de 2004 11:30 a.m. Para: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Asunto: Re: The Origin and Function of Mesoamerican Pyramids Not to get off this subject matter...... But does anyone know what "COAHUILA " mean? The people of Texas ( TEJAS ) were called "COAHUILTECANS" just wondering...The CADDOS say that *TEJAS* is a word from their language, I say not... Later... _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dfrye at UMICH.EDU Mon Oct 11 19:02:08 2004 From: dfrye at UMICH.EDU (Frye, David L) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:02:08 -0400 Subject: Coahuila Message-ID: Ignacio Zaragoza was born in Bahia de Espiritu Santo in what was then the Mexican state of "Coahuila y Texas." The same year he was born, Bahia was renamed Goliad, and a few years later it became part of Texas. When Texas broke from Mexico, a big chunks of Coahuila and Tamaulipas (aka Nuevo Santander) were taken as part of Texas, but Goliad was always in the Texas part of "Coahuila y Texas." (The town is SE of San Antonio.) Ignacio Zaragoza grew up in Matamoros and then moved to Monterrey before going on to national prominence as a general. In response to an earlier message, -teco and -teca are alternative Spanish versions of the Nahuatl suffix -tecatl, which means "from (a place)." It is sort of like -an in English: Mexico, America > Mexican, American. It does not quite mean "people" in itself, but it is quite often used to create adjectives and nouns to describe the people from a given place. For example, "Zacatecas" is the Spanish plural of "Zacateca," from Nahuatl "Zacatecatl," which means "(people) from Zacatlan." Zacatlan in turn is zacatl (grass) + the suffix -an (place). So "Zacatecas" are the people from Zacatlan, the Place of Grass. Coahuilteco would most likely be from Coahuiltecatl, "(the people) from Coahuillan." It is worth mentioning that Nahuatl speakers gave names to places all over Mexico, Guatemala, and surrounding areas. The name Coahuila might come from Nahuatl, but that does not necessarily mean that the people in Coahuila spoke Nahuatl. From teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 14 12:00:33 2004 From: teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM (Steffen Haurholm-Larsen) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:00:33 +0000 Subject: Regarding Frye's analysis of Zacatlan Message-ID: As I was reading the message below which was a response to the "Coahuila" discussion I could'nt help but notice the analysis of "zacatlan" as consisting of "zacatl" and a supposed suffix "-an" to form the locative expression of "the grass place" or "place of grass". In the analysis the suffix "-an" is translated as "place". I do belive, however, that this suffix does not exist in nahuatl, at least not in that form. I think that the suffix in use here is "-tlan" meaning originally "under" but tanking the meaning of "by" or "at"(Michel Launey: 1992, p. 219.) Then the analysis would be that by the derrivation the word "zacatl" looses its indefinit suffix "-tl" and in stead is suffigated "-tlan" to form the placename "Zacatlan". It is the same suffix that appears in the placename of the Mexica capital Tenochtitlan only in that particular case with the ligature "-ti-" between the nominal root and the suffix. My best regards Steffen Haurholm- Larsen, University of Copenhagen >From: "Frye, David L" >Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >Subject: Re: Coahuila >Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:02:08 -0400 > >Ignacio Zaragoza was born in Bahia de Espiritu Santo in what was then >the Mexican state of "Coahuila y Texas." The same year he was born, >Bahia was renamed Goliad, and a few years later it became part of Texas. >When Texas broke from Mexico, a big chunks of Coahuila and Tamaulipas >(aka Nuevo Santander) were taken as part of Texas, but Goliad was always >in the Texas part of "Coahuila y Texas." (The town is SE of San >Antonio.) Ignacio Zaragoza grew up in Matamoros and then moved to >Monterrey before going on to national prominence as a general. > >In response to an earlier message, -teco and -teca are alternative >Spanish versions of the Nahuatl suffix -tecatl, which means "from (a >place)." It is sort of like -an in English: Mexico, America > Mexican, >American. It does not quite mean "people" in itself, but it is quite >often used to create adjectives and nouns to describe the people from a >given place. > >For example, "Zacatecas" is the Spanish plural of "Zacateca," from >Nahuatl "Zacatecatl," which means "(people) from Zacatlan." Zacatlan in >turn is zacatl (grass) + the suffix -an (place). So "Zacatecas" are the >people from Zacatlan, the Place of Grass. > >Coahuilteco would most likely be from Coahuiltecatl, "(the people) from >Coahuillan." > >It is worth mentioning that Nahuatl speakers gave names to places all >over Mexico, Guatemala, and surrounding areas. The name Coahuila might >come from Nahuatl, but that does not necessarily mean that the people in >Coahuila spoke Nahuatl. _________________________________________________________________ Opret en gratis Hotmail-konto http://www.hotmail.com med udsigt til 250 MB lagerkapacitet From dfrye at UMICH.EDU Thu Oct 14 14:20:17 2004 From: dfrye at UMICH.EDU (Frye, David L) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:20:17 -0400 Subject: -tecatl (-teco), -tlan Message-ID: Thanks for the correction. I shouldn't have tried answering without Frances Karttunen's Analytical Dictionary in front of me. She has: -te:ca-tl (pl, -te:cah), "This ending replaces -TLA:N in place names to yield 'resident of, person from' that place, TEPOZTE:CATL 'person from Tepoztlan.'" -tla:n "Place of, at... This commonly forms place names." (etc.) ________________________________ From: Nahua language and culture discussion on behalf of Steffen Haurholm-Larsen Sent: Thu 10/14/2004 8:00 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Regarding Frye's analysis of Zacatlan As I was reading the message below which was a response to the "Coahuila" discussion I could'nt help but notice the analysis of "zacatlan" as consisting of "zacatl" and a supposed suffix "-an" to form the locative expression of "the grass place" or "place of grass". In the analysis the suffix "-an" is translated as "place". I do belive, however, that this suffix does not exist in nahuatl, at least not in that form. I think that the suffix in use here is "-tlan" meaning originally "under" but tanking the meaning of "by" or "at"(Michel Launey: 1992, p. 219.) Then the analysis would be that by the derrivation the word "zacatl" looses its indefinit suffix "-tl" and in stead is suffigated "-tlan" to form the placename "Zacatlan". It is the same suffix that appears in the placename of the Mexica capital Tenochtitlan only in that particular case with the ligature "-ti-" between the nominal root and the suffix. My best regards Steffen Haurholm- Larsen, University of Copenhagen From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 14 16:09:47 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:09:47 -0700 Subject: -tecatl (-teco), -tlan In-Reply-To: <71F249219F2E3845B88BE93BEC6DA4FB028B6A24@lsa-m2.lsa.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: in my hometown area ( The Lower Rio Grande Valley Of Texas ) there is a very small hamlet called "ZACATAL" on US. Route 281 which is know as the "Military Highway," I saw someone mentioned that the people living in this area(s) didn't speak Nahuat-l, I beg to differ, my grandparents did... This was also "COAHUILTECAN" country. As a matter of fact the whole Rio Grande Valley on both sides was considered Coahuila. read the Treaty between Texas and Mexico and the Texas . http://www.sfasu.edu/polisci/Abel/TexasConstitution.html Read where it describes the Mexican People known as Coahuiltecans or Coahuiltejanos.. Maybe you should take a trip down to the Valley and listened in on the language across the border into the Mexican side ... Hasta La Proxima.. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu Oct 14 18:53:48 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:53:48 -0400 Subject: Regarding Frye's analysis of Zacatlan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Clearly the place name is formed of the stem zaca- 'grass' (minus the absolutive suffix of the citation form zacatl) plus a suffix. There is a locative suffix -tla:n with a long vowel. -tla:n binds to stems without the -ti- ligature and means 'next to, among.' Then there is the postposition -tlan with a short vowel that means 'beneath, under.' This one binds to stems with -ti- to form place names but does not use the -ti- when functioning as a simple postposition, as in i:-tlan, for example. With body parts there are some -tlan doublets with and without -ti. I think "Zacatlan" is actually Zacatla:n and formed with -tla:n in contrast to Teno:chtitlan Fran On Oct 14, 2004, at 8:00 AM, Steffen Haurholm-Larsen wrote: > As I was reading the message below which was a response to the > "Coahuila" > discussion I could'nt help but notice the analysis of "zacatlan" as > consisting of "zacatl" and a supposed suffix "-an" to form the locative > expression of "the grass place" or "place of grass". In the analysis > the > suffix "-an" is translated as "place". > I do belive, however, that this suffix does not exist in nahuatl, at > least > not in that form. I think that the suffix in use here is "-tlan" > meaning > originally "under" but tanking the meaning of "by" or "at"(Michel > Launey: > 1992, p. 219.) Then the analysis would be that by the derrivation the > word > "zacatl" looses its indefinit suffix "-tl" and in stead is suffigated > "-tlan" to form the placename "Zacatlan". > It is the same suffix that appears in the placename of the Mexica > capital > Tenochtitlan only in that particular case with the ligature "-ti-" > between > the nominal root and the suffix. > > My best regards > Steffen Haurholm- Larsen, > University of Copenhagen > > > > >> From: "Frye, David L" >> Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >> >> To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >> Subject: Re: Coahuila >> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:02:08 -0400 >> >> Ignacio Zaragoza was born in Bahia de Espiritu Santo in what was then >> the Mexican state of "Coahuila y Texas." The same year he was born, >> Bahia was renamed Goliad, and a few years later it became part of >> Texas. >> When Texas broke from Mexico, a big chunks of Coahuila and Tamaulipas >> (aka Nuevo Santander) were taken as part of Texas, but Goliad was >> always >> in the Texas part of "Coahuila y Texas." (The town is SE of San >> Antonio.) Ignacio Zaragoza grew up in Matamoros and then moved to >> Monterrey before going on to national prominence as a general. >> >> In response to an earlier message, -teco and -teca are alternative >> Spanish versions of the Nahuatl suffix -tecatl, which means "from (a >> place)." It is sort of like -an in English: Mexico, America > Mexican, >> American. It does not quite mean "people" in itself, but it is quite >> often used to create adjectives and nouns to describe the people from >> a >> given place. >> >> For example, "Zacatecas" is the Spanish plural of "Zacateca," from >> Nahuatl "Zacatecatl," which means "(people) from Zacatlan." Zacatlan >> in >> turn is zacatl (grass) + the suffix -an (place). So "Zacatecas" are >> the >> people from Zacatlan, the Place of Grass. >> >> Coahuilteco would most likely be from Coahuiltecatl, "(the people) >> from >> Coahuillan." >> >> It is worth mentioning that Nahuatl speakers gave names to places all >> over Mexico, Guatemala, and surrounding areas. The name Coahuila might >> come from Nahuatl, but that does not necessarily mean that the people >> in >> Coahuila spoke Nahuatl. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Opret en gratis Hotmail-konto http://www.hotmail.com med udsigt til > 250 MB > lagerkapacitet > From Huaxyacac at AOL.COM Sun Oct 17 07:53:09 2004 From: Huaxyacac at AOL.COM (Huaxyacac at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 03:53:09 -0400 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: I am rather fond of Jane Hill's arguments myself. To answer some of Mark's questions: "But, the first question that I ask myself is how did the PUA linguistic family get into the Americas and into Mesoamerica?" I don't think any of the language families of the New World "got into the Americas"; at least, the proto-languages that we can reliably reconstruct using historical linguistics go back to a time horizon far more recent than the initial settlement of the Americas. In fact, for most language families I suspect the time horizon is early agriculture. Prior to that, the Mesoamerican linguistic landscape may have resembled aboriginal Australia, with dozens if not hundreds of separate languages that both were old enough but also shared enough loans with other so that they cannot be connected into clear, monophyletic families the way traditional historical linguistics works. "If you take an expansive view of the Otomanguean family and affinitive branches, there is a general extension of these languages over central, southeastern and south central Mesoamerica from the Panuco River to Subtiaba. From there, it is easy to conclude there was an westward bound intrusion of UA (as Nahuatl) into the central and southern area (and in at least two major waves as Dakin and Wichann describe), fragmenting and altering the older Otomanguean languages spread through the region." I don't think Hill would argue with the idea that Nahuatl per se arrived in Central Mexico late, as an intrusion into a primarily Otomanguean-speaking area. I suspect that the "homeland" of PUA was further north and west than this, in the Occidente or Bajio. "If UA originated within the Mesoamerican cultural sphere, why would it present itself clearly as an irruption into a landscape of otherwise affinitive languages? I would still be inclined, hence, to view UA's arrival into western Mesoamerica a consequence of southern migrations. That does not discount the possibility, I believe, that "Mesoamericanized" UA then returned north with agricultural cultivators." The spread of agriculture to the north, and the separation of northern and southern Utoaztecan, far, far predates the historically and archaeological documented migration of Nahuas into central Mesoamerica. I believe we are talking about two completely different processes here: one of agricultural spread, and a later one of elite dominance. I think that the spread of domesticated crops and the related technology set across the Late Archaic Mesoamerican highlands allowed the populations of several different highland basins to expand in classic agricultural spreads. Otomanguean spread in two segments, one from the Basin of Mexico and the other from the Valley of Oaxaca, and came to fill most of the central highlands. Mixe-Zoquean spread from Chiapas into the adjacent lowlands; Mayan may have spread from the lowlands (John Clark has a good model of distinct proto-Maya "tribes"). Purepecha spread in Michoacan, but could not expand very far because it was surrounded by other spreads. Utoaztecan spread from the northern fringe, and thus could spread the furthest, as the new technology allowed higher population densities well to the north. "If anyone sees any big problems with this hypothesis, I would really like to hear about it since (barring a significant epiphany) this is what I will tell my students in winter survey course of Mesoamerican civilization." That's my two cents. I'll be interested to see any responses--although I will also be in rural Laos with little or no email access for a month, so I won't see them for a while. Cheers, Alec Christensen ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Sun Oct 17 19:01:41 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:01:41 -0500 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland In-Reply-To: <17CB6B2E.738DD3B7.0256DCD3@aol.com> Message-ID: Alec, Thanks for your comments. Just a couple of clarifications in case someone elese is interested in following this. First, when I was speaking broadly of Otomanguean and affinitive languages, I was speaking very broadly, referring specifically to the similarities among Otomanguean, Mayan and Mixe-Zoquean languages that do not extend to Uto-Aztecan languages. Second, the first migrations of Nahua-speaking peoples into Central and Eastern Mesoamerica occurred roughly concomitant with the spread of agriculture north beyond the limit of the Mesoamerican area, ca. 500-700 c.e. (common era), although if Nahua circulated in the western region (Nyarit, pacific Jalisco and Michoacan) earlier, it is likely that it was present in the extensive contacts of the western cultures with the Tlaxcala-Puebla region ca. 300 b.c.e. best, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Mon Oct 18 15:34:43 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:34:43 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Romances_de_los_señores?= Message-ID: I have done a bit of poking around regarding the "Romances de los se?ores de la nueva espa?a" and noticed that Andrea Martinez Baracs is listed in various places as working on a modern edition of these poems. Does anyone know of the progress of the project? Similarly a French scholar Marie Sautron was doing a similar thing prior to her untimely death. Is anyone else working on the Romances? John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU Wed Oct 20 21:44:31 2004 From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:44:31 -0600 Subject: Looking for Name of a List Member Message-ID: A while back I asked for advice about how to treat a Nahuatl text I'm working on. Someone here commented that he and some colleagues are working on a text that will attempt, as closely as typesetting technology permits, to reproduce in detail the characteristics of a Nahuatl text. I have some questions about specific procedures and would like to contact that person again. If you've read this (or know who it was), please write me offline at rcrapo at cc.usu.edu. Richley From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Wed Oct 20 21:56:16 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:56:16 -0500 Subject: Looking for Name of a List Member In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richley, I think that there may be miequintin people who would be interested in that information. |8-) Joe On Wed, 20 Oct 2004, Richley Crapo wrote: > A while back I asked for advice about how to treat a Nahuatl text I'm > working on. Someone here commented that he and some colleagues are > working on a text that will attempt, as closely as typesetting > technology permits, to reproduce in detail the characteristics of a > Nahuatl text. I have some questions about specific procedures and would > like to contact that person again. > > If you've read this (or know who it was), please write me offline at > rcrapo at cc.usu.edu. > > Richley > > > From pthajovs at UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Oct 21 12:57:50 2004 From: pthajovs at UCHICAGO.EDU (pthajovs at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 07:57:50 -0500 Subject: Nebrija's Dictionarium Message-ID: Has anyone done historical work on the copy of Nebrija's Dictionarium in the Newberry Library (Ayer ms. 1478), which adds Nahuatl to the Spanish and Latin entries? According to the Newberry's records, it probably dates to 1540. At first glance, some entries (at least the Spanish entries) parallel Molina's 1571 dictionary. Newberry's catalog states that it may be from Sahag?n's collection. So, a Tlatelolco provenence seems probable, at the least. Can anyone share more information on this? I'm especially interested in Nebrija's Latin source, and what a comparison of the ms. with Molina may tell us about the formation of Molina's lexicon. Thanks. From clayton at INDIANA.EDU Thu Oct 21 18:26:30 2004 From: clayton at INDIANA.EDU (mary l. clayton) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 13:26:30 -0500 Subject: Nebrija's Dictionarium In-Reply-To: <1098363470.4177b24e864c4@webmail.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 pthajovs at UCHICAGO.EDU wrote: > Has anyone done historical work on the copy of Nebrija's Dictionarium in the > Newberry Library (Ayer ms. 1478), which adds Nahuatl to the Spanish and Latin > entries? According to the Newberry's records, it probably dates to 1540. At > first glance, some entries (at least the Spanish entries) parallel Molina's 1571 > dictionary. Newberry's catalog states that it may be from Sahag?n's collection. > So, a Tlatelolco provenence seems probable, at the least. Can anyone share > more information on this? I'm especially interested in Nebrija's Latin source, > and what a comparison of the ms. with Molina may tell us about the formation of > Molina's lexicon. Thanks. ****** As a matter of fact, I've been working on this document for longer than I like to admit to myself. When I began working on it, it was because I recognized in it a substantial and independent source of early colonial Nahuatl vocabulary. Also, it was intriguing because there seems to be a lot of misinformation about it. I'm not sure what you mean by "historical work". I've chased down all of the bibliography that I can find (much of which is secondary and/or erroneous), have consulted the librarians at the Newberry and have put many years into internal analysis of the text. For those who are not familiar with this document, it is a small (in physical size, less small in content) manuscript dictionary based on Nebrija's 1516 Spanish-Latin dictionary, which is copied (apparently a bad attempt at verbatim) in black ink with Nahuatl equivalents added in red for most entries. My early work (references below) established: 1) that this manuscript is a copy of an earlier work containing all three languages, 2) that the copyist was a native speaker of Nahuatl (not a controversial issue), and 3) that it is in fact based on the 1516 Nebrija and not on the earlier 1495 Spanish-Latin dictionary (sometimes incorrectly dated 1492). 4) I further suggested that internal evidence points to the possibility of a native Nahuatl-speaking author. My goal (I'm guessing that I'm about 80% finished) is a four-part work: 1) a close edition of the manuscript with copious notes, 2) a Nahuatl alphabetical dictionary drawing together and lemmatizing all of the occurrences of the Nahuatl words scattered throughout the dictionary, along with their morphological analyses and with English translations for Spanish Latin and Nahuatl, 3) a morphological dictionary and 4) a monographic treatment of the document and its contents. This project has involved transcribing the document, entering standardized spellings (including correct spacing) along with original spellings for the Nahuatl equivalents so that they can be sorted and gathered correctly, doing the morphological analyses, adding several comment fields which permit me to make categorized comments on each entry for factors ranging from copyist's errors (voiced consonants for voiceless, etc.) to semantic fields, (vocabulary related to agriculture, body parts, weather, etc.) to notes on errors in the manuscript. My husband, Joe Campbell, has been a tremendous help in designing the database -- and re-designing it at least twice, as more and more fields became necessary -- and has written all of the programs which sort and search on the various fields and produce the dictionary format from the database. A big hang-up in progress occurred when I discovered that errors which I had attributed to the scribe or to the author (the scribe is so uneducated that I don't think he could possibly have written the Nahuatl equivalents) were in fact differences due to the fact that the modern edition of the 1516 edition of Nebrija has been so changed that it isn't reliable (it's a critical edition, but still...). So I took the time to locate a microfilm of the 1516 dictionary and transcribe it in its entirety into a new field in the database. THEN I discovered that some of the remaining problems are due to the fact that the 1516 Nebrija exists in at least THREE different printings (that I know of -- there may be more), which differ a fair amount in spelling. So I'm noting differences between the Newberry dictionary and the two versions of the 1516 that are available to me. Some morsels and observations: The title "Vocabulario trilingue" occurs only on the binding, which, according to John Aubrey, Ayer librarian at the Newberry Library, is 19th century. (Besides, "Vocabulario trilingue" is just a descriptive title. The fact that this corresponds to a title mentioned by Sahagun doesn't carry much weight, although the person who had it re-bound may have intended it to.) Nothing that I can find relates this book to Sahagun or to Tlatelolco. The "Sahagun connection" seems to be just wishful thinking. Once you look at the "evidence", none of it stands up and most of it is only assertions. The 1540 date is just there, I think, because that's about the earliest that a dictionary could have been produced. I've also seen them date it at 1590, the year of Sahagun's death. In my opinion (and I have access to the complete database and to Joe's Molina and Sahagun databases) the only relationship between this dictionary and Molina's is that they both contain Nahuatl and Spanish. Obviously, the Spanish in this dictionary is similar to Nebrija's -- it's a copy. Joe and I dealt at length with the question of the relationship of *Molina* to Nebrija in our 2002 paper (see below) The answer there is that, sure, Molina had access to Nebrija, but he used it judiciously for suggestions for gathering vocabulary. He excludes many entries which aren't relevant to 16th century Mexico and includes many many new entries of his own, many of which relate specifically to Mexico. Our 2002 paper further increased our awe of Molina as a lexicographer. I think he's light years ahead of Nebrija in writing dictionaries which fulfill their mission. As for Nebrija's Latin -- I'd like to know more about that too! His mastery of Latin doesn't seem to have had the finesse that one would have expected or hoped for. On the other hand, he gets a lot of credit for his Latin-Spanish (1492) and Spanish-Latin (1495 and 1516) dictionaries for doing what hadn't been done before. I could write far more about the topic of this dictionary than anyone is interested in reading -- and may already have done so in this message. If you have further questions, I welcome them. Cheers, Mary Clayton some numbers: 15,479 total entries in the Newberry dictionary (cf. 17,088 Spanish entries with 36,954 Nahuatl equivalents in Molina's 1571 Spanish-Nahuatl dictionary). 11,059 entries in the Newberry dictionary contain Nahuatl (some have more than one equivalent) 11,933 Nahuatl equivalents (tokens) 9,254 total Nahuatl equivalent types. These will be the headwords in the dictionary I'm preparing. 52,515 individual Nahuatl morphemes coded so far. Just under 600 words (tokens) remain with incomplete morphology. Some of these require just one decision to be completed, others are complete mysteries. A fair number are garbled entries that will probably never find solutions. Clayton, Mary L. 1989. "A Trilingual Spanish-Latin-Nahuatl Manuscript Dictionary Sometimes Attributed to Fray Bernardino de Sahagun." _International Journal of American Linguistics_ 55:391-416 [an initial summary of my findings to an early point -- with the caveat that what I said on f/h was based on a misunderstanding about the modern edition of Nebrija and is wrong.] __________. 1999. "Three Questions in Nahuatl Morphology: 'wedge', 'helmet', 'plaster'." _International Journal of American Linguistics_ 65:466-84 [details on three morphemes based on evidence from the Ayer dictionary with additions from Sahagun and Molina] __________ 2003. "Evidence for a Native-Speaking Nahuatl Author in the Ayer Vocabulario trilingue" _International Journal of Lexicography_ 16:99-119. [my arguments, based on internal evidence, on why I think the Nahuatl equivalents were written by a native speaker of Nahuatl] __________ and R. Joe Campbell, 2002. "Alonso de Molina as Lexicographer" _Making Dictionaries: Preserving Indigenous Languages of the Americas_. edited by William Frawley, Kenneth C. Hill and Pamela Munro. pp.336-390. Berkeley: University of California Press. [our paper examining the three Molina dictionaries from a number of angles. one of the most challenging and rewarding projects I've ever undertaken.] From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri Oct 22 12:39:24 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 07:39:24 -0500 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: <20041011180116.38091.qmail@web40704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The front end of this term, the "Coahuil-" part is probably not Nahuatl. Granted, the coa- is invitingly similar in form to the Nahuatl root for "snake," but the -huil- just doesn't fit the Nahuatl bill. Given the location of these people, it's most likely the Coahuil- came from another language. If you are serious about tracking down the etymology of this term, then you might want to start with the languages of northern Mexico, perhaps with the language of these people. Michael On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, DARKHORSE wrote: > The way I gathered, Teca(s) means "People" Correct? Thus "COAHUILTECANS" means "People of the Flying Serpent?" > > Thanks... > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Fri Oct 22 13:47:13 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:47:13 +0100 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, DARKHORSE wrote: > The way I gathered, Teca(s) means "People" Correct? > Thus "COAHUILTECANS" means "People of the Flying Serpent?" Coahuila is largely desert, like nearby Sonora. In the deserts of the Middle East, heat delirium hallucinations caused by dehydration, including seeing flying snakes, were so frequent down the millennia that some people believed that flying snakes existed: thus even the Greek historian Herodotus wrote "Snakes occur everywhere, but flying snakes in the desert of Arabia only.". Could travellers in Coahuila have hallucinated flying snakes for the same reason? From tonantzn at CHORUS.NET Fri Oct 22 14:08:38 2004 From: tonantzn at CHORUS.NET (Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:08:38 -0500 Subject: Coahuila Message-ID: Flying Serpent? Anthony Appleyard's take on "Flying Serpent" may not be so farfetched. But I doubt that this notion of a "Flying Serpent" was a result of the Sonora desert heat and hallucinations caused by dehydration. Perhaps it is more related to the Mesoamerican mythological matrix of the "Feathered Serpent." Would it be that a "Flying Serpent" may have been envisioned as possessing "Feathers" that made it fly? As to Herodotus, what prompted him to ascribe "flying snakes" to the Arabian desert but nowhere else? Surely some other explanation is at work here. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ANTHONY APPLEYARD" To: Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 8:47 AM Subject: Re: Coahuila > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, DARKHORSE wrote: >> The way I gathered, Teca(s) means "People" Correct? >> Thus "COAHUILTECANS" means "People of the Flying Serpent?" > > Coahuila is largely desert, like nearby Sonora. In the deserts of the > Middle East, heat delirium hallucinations caused by dehydration, > including seeing flying snakes, were so frequent down the millennia > that some people believed that flying snakes existed: thus even the > Greek historian Herodotus wrote "Snakes occur everywhere, but flying > snakes in the desert of Arabia only.". Could travellers in Coahuila > have hallucinated flying snakes for the same reason? > From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Fri Oct 22 14:33:19 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:33:19 +0100 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: <004c01c4b840$a15e8340$9bee0b45@JuanAlvarez> Message-ID: --- Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc wrote: > Flying Serpent? Anthony Appleyard's take on "Flying Serpent" may not > be so farfetched. But I doubt that this notion of a "Flying Serpent" > was a result of the Sonora desert heat and hallucinations caused by > dehydration. Perhaps it is more related to the Mesoamerican > mythological matrix of the "Feathered Serpent." ... > As to Herodotus, what prompted him to ascribe "flying snakes" to the > Arabian desert but nowhere else? Because in areas well known to ancient Greece, only the Arabian desert was hot and dry enough to cause this sort of hallucination frequently. Even the King of Assyria once saw winged flying snakes when he was crossing desert in a campaign, or so an inscription says. As to hallucination versus current mythology :: given a cause of hallucinosis (drugs, heat delirium, insanity, or whatever), hallucination tends to follow (and thus reinforce) existing belief. I read that one cause of persistent hallucinosis in an area of countryside was non-alcoholic delirium tremens caused by magnesium deficiency. From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 22 16:43:33 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:43:33 -0700 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So far this is what I have found..... Kickapoo The Algonquian family includes several languages in the United States and Canada, such as Cheyenne, Arapaho, Cree, Ojibwa, and Fox, as well as the Kickapoo language of Mexico, spoken by a small group in the state of of Coahuila. Kickapoo is closely related to a larger group of the same name, in the state of Oklahoma, USA. The speakers of this language group arrived in Mexico in 1839. Maybe the Tejanos are of the Algonquian Language Family ? Que dicen Uds.? Noten el mapa ....There's the Rio Grande Valley Of Texas.... Hijole sera possible?!!! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Oct 22 19:32:15 2004 From: cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET (Joanna M. Sanchez) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:32:15 -0400 Subject: Coahuila Message-ID: I wonder why such flight phenomena would be limited to serpents if an hallucination? Might it be true that desert snakes develop means of traversing the hot landscape with a minimum of bodily contact- seeming to 'fly' as they hurl themselves along? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc" To: Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 10:08 AM Subject: Re: Coahuila > Flying Serpent? Anthony Appleyard's take on "Flying Serpent" may not be so > farfetched. But I doubt that this notion of a "Flying Serpent" was a result > of the Sonora desert heat and hallucinations caused by dehydration. Perhaps > it is more related to the Mesoamerican mythological matrix of the "Feathered > Serpent." Would it be that a "Flying Serpent" may have been envisioned as > possessing "Feathers" that made it fly? As to Herodotus, what prompted him > to ascribe "flying snakes" to the Arabian desert but nowhere else? Surely > some other explanation is at work here. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ANTHONY APPLEYARD" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 8:47 AM > Subject: Re: Coahuila > > > > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, DARKHORSE wrote: > >> The way I gathered, Teca(s) means "People" Correct? > >> Thus "COAHUILTECANS" means "People of the Flying Serpent?" > > > > Coahuila is largely desert, like nearby Sonora. In the deserts of the > > Middle East, heat delirium hallucinations caused by dehydration, > > including seeing flying snakes, were so frequent down the millennia > > that some people believed that flying snakes existed: thus even the > > Greek historian Herodotus wrote "Snakes occur everywhere, but flying > > snakes in the desert of Arabia only.". Could travellers in Coahuila > > have hallucinated flying snakes for the same reason? > > > From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Fri Oct 22 19:47:35 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:47:35 +0100 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: <001601c4b86d$dc425fe0$7da25b40@sanchejm> Message-ID: --- "Joanna M. Sanchez" wrote: > I wonder why such flight phenomena would be limited to serpents if a > hallucination? > Might it be true that desert snakes develop means of > traversing the hot landscape with a minimum of bodily contact- > seeming to 'fly' as they hurl themselves along? He is describing "sidewinding". But people who are not hallucinating would not confuse sidewinding with flying in the air. Possibly desert mirages might be a part of the cause. The nearest to a real flying snake is a species of jungle snake which glides down from trees by moving its ribs to try to shape its body into a crude aerofoil. From cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Oct 22 19:32:15 2004 From: cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET (Joanna M. Sanchez) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:32:15 -0400 Subject: Coahuila Message-ID: I wonder why such flight phenomena would be limited to serpents if an hallucination? Might it be true that desert snakes develop means of traversing the hot landscape with a minimum of bodily contact- seeming to 'fly' as they hurl themselves along? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc" To: Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 10:08 AM Subject: Re: Coahuila > Flying Serpent? Anthony Appleyard's take on "Flying Serpent" may not be so > farfetched. But I doubt that this notion of a "Flying Serpent" was a result > of the Sonora desert heat and hallucinations caused by dehydration. Perhaps > it is more related to the Mesoamerican mythological matrix of the "Feathered > Serpent." Would it be that a "Flying Serpent" may have been envisioned as > possessing "Feathers" that made it fly? As to Herodotus, what prompted him > to ascribe "flying snakes" to the Arabian desert but nowhere else? Surely > some other explanation is at work here. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ANTHONY APPLEYARD" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 8:47 AM > Subject: Re: Coahuila > > > > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, DARKHORSE wrote: > >> The way I gathered, Teca(s) means "People" Correct? > >> Thus "COAHUILTECANS" means "People of the Flying Serpent?" > > > > Coahuila is largely desert, like nearby Sonora. In the deserts of the > > Middle East, heat delirium hallucinations caused by dehydration, > > including seeing flying snakes, were so frequent down the millennia > > that some people believed that flying snakes existed: thus even the > > Greek historian Herodotus wrote "Snakes occur everywhere, but flying > > snakes in the desert of Arabia only.". Could travellers in Coahuila > > have hallucinated flying snakes for the same reason? > > > ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs service. ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ From maffiej at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU Fri Oct 22 23:07:05 2004 From: maffiej at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU (James Maffie) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:07:05 -0600 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: <001601c4b86d$dc425fe0$7da25b40@sanchejm> Message-ID: I agree with Joanna. First, this strikes me as a sound methodological principle: when trying to explain some phenomenon, turn first to the environment (or perceived environment) before resorting to (what from the etic standpoint we deem) hallucinations, illusions, etc. I am unfamiliar with the snakes in the region in question, but do I know firsthand that sidewinders not only appear to fly across desert dunes but in fact leave track marks that show that the snakes do actually leave the ground. On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Joanna M. Sanchez wrote: > I wonder why such flight phenomena would be limited to > To: > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 10:08 AM > Subject: Re: Coahuila > > > > Flying Serpent? Anthony Appleyard's take on "Flying Serpent"Feathered > > Serpent." Would it be that a "Flying Serpent" may have been envisioned as > > possessing "Feathers" that made it fly? As to Herodotus, what prompted > him > > to ascribe "flying snakes" to the Arabian desert but nowhere else? Surely > > some other explanation is at work here. > > > > >> The way I gathered, Teca(s) means "People" Correct? > > >> Thus "COAHUILTECANS" means "People of the Flying Serpent?" > > > > > > Coahuila is largely desert, like nearby Sonora. In the dese From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Sat Oct 23 15:43:03 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 08:43:03 -0700 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: <001601c4b86d$dc425fe0$7da25b40@sanchejm> Message-ID: Flying snakes are a small group of species of tree snakes that live in South and Southeast Asia. At rest they appear unremarkable, but on the move they're able to take to the air by jumping from the tree, flattening the entire body, and gliding or parachuting to the ground or another tree. This site is dedicated to documenting the science of these unique animals. Not necessarily with feathers tho.*lol*........ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Sat Oct 23 15:50:50 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 08:50:50 -0700 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: <001601c4b86d$dc425fe0$7da25b40@sanchejm> Message-ID: Pterosaurs in Texas The Quetzalcoatlus had a wingspan of over 40 feet. It lived during the late Cretaceous. (Copyright Lee Krystek 2003) While driving his cruiser through the wee hours one morning 1976, Policeman Arturo Padilla of San Benito, Texas, spotted something unusual in his headlights. It looked like a big bird. A really big bird. A few minutes later Padilla?s fellow officer, Homer Galvan, reported it also. It appeared as a black silhouette that glided through the air. According to Galvan, it never even flapped its wings. A short time later Alverico Guajardo, a resident of Brownsville, Texas, reported he'd heard a thumping noise outside his mobile home at about nine-thirty at night. When he looked out the door, he saw a monstrous bird standing in his yard. "It's like a bird, but it's not a bird," he said. "That animal is not from this world." The sighting of the strange bird didn?t end with the reports from Guajardo and the two policemen. Two sisters told of seeing a "big black bird" with "a face like a bat" near a pond outside of Brownsville. Reports of this creature continued to multiply in the early months of 1976 until finally a radio station offered a reward for the creature's capture. Soon after, a television station broadcast a picture of an alleged bird track measuring some twelve inches in length. As the media hype increased, the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department took action, fearing that hunters might mistake a large, rare and protected bird (like a whooping crane) for this mysterious creature. They made an announcement saying, "All birds are protected by state or federal law." At about this same time several Texas schoolteachers told of seeing the strange flying creature, with a wingspan of at least 12 feet across, while they were driving to work. One of them checked the school library and found a name for the animal: A pterosaur. The Pterosaurs Pterosaurs were an order of reptiles that lived and went extinct with the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. They were the first true flying animals that had vertebrae. Their wings were composed of a membrane of skin that stretched from the side of the body, along the arm, out to the tip of an enormously-elongated fourth finger, and then back to the ankle. Like a bat, they had no feathers. The Pteranodon, a member of the pterosaur family, may have skimmed along the coastal waters catching fish. It had a wingspan as big as 23 feet and a head almost seven feet long. (Copyright Lee Krystek 2003) Computer analysis of pterosaur fossils suggest that they were slow gliders, capable of making very tight airborne turns. A large pteranodon, with a wingspan of 30 feet, could turn in mid-flight in a circle only 34 feet in diameter. So what were extinct pterosaurs doing in Texas in the 20th century? Strangely enough, Texas hasn?t been the only place plagued by aerial, reptilian predators from the past. In 1923 a writer by the name of Frank Melland who worked in what was then northern Rhodesia, in Africa, told of a strange flying creature in his book In Witchbound Africa. According to Melland, the natives called this animal a kongamato. Its wing span was four to seven feet across and it had a long beak full of teeth. The wings were featherless and resembled those of a bat. Melland sent for some books he had at his home and showed a picture of a pterodactyl (a type of pterosaur) to the tribesmen. Melland reported that "every native present immediately and unhesitatingly picked it out and identified it as a kongamato." Melland wasn?t the only one to hear of this beast. In 1942 Col. R. S. Pitman wrote about reports he?d heard about a flying creature living in the same region as Melland?s kongamato: ?the most amazing feature of this mystery beast is its suggested identity with a creature bat-and-birdlike in form on a gigantic scale strangely reminiscent of the prehistoric pterodactyl." Nobody has yet to find a living pterosaur either in Africa or Texas, however. Is it possible that what people were seeing was a very big, but conventional bird? The largest American bird is the California condor. With an impressive wingspan of over ten feet they would be large enough to explain some of the Texas reports. California condors, however, are a rare and endangered species and it seems unlikely that one would have wandered so far from its home on the west coast without being spotted and recognized by bird watchers for what it really was. Bird of Legend There is another bird, more legend than fact, that might fit the Texas reports: The thunderbird. Thunderbirds are a part of Native American myth. These huge, supernatural creatures were supposed to have caused thunder by flapping their wings and lightning by blinking their eyes. Though such powers are obviously in the realm of legend, there are occasional reports in certain sections of North America of sightings of a giant birds that seem to fit the thunderbird description. The forested region along the Allegheny Plateau of Pennsylvania seems to get more than its share of thunderbird reports. In 1969 the wife of a local sheriff spotted a huge bird sitting in the middle of a creek near their cabin. When it took off and unfurled its wings she estimated it was about 75 feet across. A more recent thunderbird account, a little further east, comes from the New Jersey coastline where in 1970 several people saw a flying creature with a "wingspread almost like an airplane." Texas Quetzalcoatlus Could a thunderbird have a wingspan as large as an airplane? The largest known flying animal of all time was a pterosaur called the Quetzalcoatlus. It had a wingspan as big as a small plane (over 40 feet) and weighed about 190 pounds. Unlike many of the other pterosaurs, Quetzalcoatlus lived inland and probably had a vulture-like existence. Its long neck would have helped it to "probe" dinosaur carcasses for meat. The Quetzalcoatlus, interestingly enough, brings us back to Texas. The first Quetzalcoatlus fossils were discovered in Big Bend National Park, Texas, in 1972, just four years before the first sightings of the Texas "Big Bird." Is there a connection? Have there been pterosaurs hiding in Texas for the last 65 million years? Or could it be the publicity surrounding the discovery of Quetzalcoatlus four years before triggered the misidentification of large birds like the sandhill crane, brown pelican or the vulture? We may never know, because after the two-month flap of sightings in 1976, reports of the big birds dwindled. The pterosaurs, if they ever existed, seem to have gone back into hiding. Perhaps not for forever, though. Six years later, on September 14, 1982, James Thompson was driving on a road near Los Fresnos, Texas, when he saw something large glide low over the highway just ahead of him. He stopped and stared at the animal that seemed to fly without moving its wings. Thompson reported the creature had a black or gray color. Its body appeared to be covered with a rough-textured skin. The wings, which were five or six feet across, had no feathers. When he got home, Thompson looked up the animal in a book. The book said it was a pterosaur............... PERSNONAL NOTE:: The Situation written here really did happen in my home town of an Benito, Texas...., However, it was not a " Feathered Flying Snake," Con Safos........ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From budelberger.richard at 9ONLINE.FR Fri Oct 22 22:30:00 2004 From: budelberger.richard at 9ONLINE.FR (Budelberger, Richard) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 00:30:00 +0200 Subject: Looking for Name of a List Member Message-ID: 2 brumaire an CCXIII (le 23 octobre 2004 d. c.-d. c. g.), 00h26. ---- Message d'origine ---- De : r. joe campbell ? : Envoy? : mercredi 20 octobre 2004 23:56 Objet : Re: Looking for Name of a List Member > On Wed, 20 Oct 2004, Richley Crapo wrote: > >> A while back I asked for advice about how to treat a Nahuatl text I'm >> working on. Someone here commented that he and some colleagues are >> working on a text that will attempt, as closely as typesetting >> technology permits, to reproduce in detail the characteristics of a >> Nahuatl text. I have some questions about specific procedures and would >> like to contact that person again. >> >> If you've read this (or know who it was), please write me offline at >> rcrapo at cc.usu.edu. >> >> Richley > > > Richley, > > I think that there may be miequintin people who would be interested in > that information. |8-) Oui : Stafford Poole (), Barry D. Sell () -- et Louise Burkhart. Cf. et . R. B. From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Sun Oct 24 12:32:27 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 07:32:27 -0500 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: <20041022164333.62927.qmail@web40712.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tejanos were not Algonquian. There is no evidence of Algonquian speakers in that area before the Kickapoo were forced to move there from the north. The Kickapoo are located, along with their dialect brethren the Sauk-Fox-Mascouten in the area at the western end of Lake Erie prior to the Iroquoian catastrophe of the 1600s. They, along with other Algonquian groups, flee to the western side of Lake Michigan in the mid-17th century, particularly to the Wisconsin area. They never make it back home and after spending the 1700s in the Wisconsin-Illinois-Indiana area are forced across the Mississippi, half of them eventually making their way to Coahuila. A good place to start with Kickapoo history is volume 15 of the Smithsonian's /Handbook of the American Indian/. There is a full chapter on the Kickapoo with details about their historical ventures. Michael On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, DARKHORSE wrote: > So far this is what I have found..... > > > Kickapoo > > > > The Algonquian family includes several languages in the United States and Canada, such as Cheyenne, Arapaho, Cree, Ojibwa, and Fox, as well as the Kickapoo language of Mexico, spoken by a small group in the state of of Coahuila. Kickapoo is closely related to a larger group of the same name, in the state of Oklahoma, USA. The speakers of this language group arrived in Mexico in 1839. > > Maybe the Tejanos are of the Algonquian Language Family ? > > Que dicen Uds.? Noten el mapa ....There's the Rio Grande Valley Of Texas.... Hijole sera possible?!!! > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Sun Oct 24 19:03:03 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 15:03:03 -0400 Subject: Coahuila In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 24, 2004, at 8:32 AM, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > A good place to start with Kickapoo history is volume 15 of the > Smithsonian's /Handbook of the American Indian/. There is a full > chapter > on the Kickapoo with details about their historical ventures. > > Another useful reference book Is Lyle Campbell's American Indian Languages: The Historical Linguistics of Native America (Oxford University Press, 1997). There are index references to the Coahuilans' language throughout the volume, but the most germane ones are to be found on p. 144 (Coahuilteco) and pp. 297-304 (Coahuiltecan, i.e., the relationship of a number of languages including Coahuilteco). Lyle has charts of the languages of the Americas: North, Middle, and South with maps and discussions of historical relationships. This is a comprehensive book. On p. 153 is a chart of the Algonquian-Ritwan language family. There you can find Kickapoo (with its historic displacements to Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, and Coahuila) but not Coahuilteco, which is not an Algonquian language. A prop?sito of what is likely and what is not: Two languages of California (Wiyot and Yurok) are now accepted as being related to the Algonquian languages of north central and northeast North America despite the geographical odds against such a relationship. That's more remarkable than the displacement of Navajo/Apache from the Athabaskan languages of the Pacific Northwest. Fran From susana at LOSRANCHEROS.ORG Tue Oct 26 22:42:55 2004 From: susana at LOSRANCHEROS.ORG (S. Moraleda) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 00:42:55 +0200 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero Message-ID: I would apreciate it if someone could help me with the translation of the following (apparently XVII century, I am told) Nahuatl text from Guerrero. I've given it a try, but would like a detailed analysis of etymology et al. The transliteration is exactly as it was given to me. Tleno o tik temimikiko pan in tlaltikpaktli? San o ti mo ijiyotiko? San oti nemiko? Tlenika o ti nemiko? Keno o ti moyolitij? I've come up with: Que veniste a so?ar en la tierra? Solo veniste a (resollar?) tomar aliento? Solo veniste a vivir? Para qu? veniste a vivir? Como fuiste a vivir? Is the second and the fourth line a reverential construction? or a reflexive one? What are all those "ko" at the end? locative? Thank you. Susana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Tue Oct 26 23:05:19 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:05:19 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: <037a01c4bbad$43ea9580$5ccf623e@mexico> Message-ID: Susana, The use of the "k", "j" for saltillo, the "s", the unpossessed relational "-pan", and the word separation looks more like modern than colonial nahuatl. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Oct 26, 2004, at 5:42 PM, S. Moraleda wrote: > > > I would apreciate it if someone could help me with the translation of > the following (apparently XVII century, I am told) Nahuatl text from > Guerrero. I've given it a try, but would like?a detailed analysis of > etymology et al. > The transliteration is exactly as it was given to me. > ? > Tleno o tik temimikiko pan in tlaltikpaktli? > San o ti mo ijiyotiko? > San oti nemiko? > Tlenika o ti nemiko? > Keno o ti moyolitij? > ? > I've come up with: > ? > Que veniste a so?ar en la tierra? > Solo veniste a (resollar?) tomar aliento? > Solo veniste a vivir? > Para qu? veniste a vivir? > Como fuiste a vivir? > ? > Is the second and the fourth line a reverential construction? or a > reflexive one? > What are all those "ko" at the end? locative? > ? > Thank you. > Susana > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2734 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Wed Oct 27 15:22:57 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:22:57 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: <818C03FF-27A3-11D9-9FB4-003065C46A4A@mac.com> Message-ID: Susan and John, Rather than a contemporary text, it also might be an example of the memorializing wave that swept across southern Mexico from the late 1780s to 1840s which created or recreated "authentic" native documents, dating from 1517 to the 1670s, of all kinds and that used as a standard device an anachronistic antique orthography including the "k," that I think was in imitation of classical Greek texts, as well as the 16th-century Spanish substitution of "j" for "i." This orthography tends uniformly to use block lettering. Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From carlossn at UI.BOE.ES Wed Oct 27 15:33:49 2004 From: carlossn at UI.BOE.ES (Carlos Santamarina) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:33:49 +0200 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark: Lo que cuentas me recuerda poderosamente a los c?dices Techialoyan, donde tambi?n parecen haberse buscado falsos arcaismos como aval de la autenticidad de documentos ind?genas reci?n fabricados ?puedes ampliar informaci?n o referencias sobre ese movimiento del que hablas? Gracias. Carlos Santamarina. Mark David Morris escribi?: >Susan and John, > >Rather than a contemporary text, it also might be an example of the >*memorializing wave* that swept across southern Mexico from the late 1780s >to 1840s which *created or recreated "authentic" native documents*, dating >from 1517 to the 1670s, of all kinds and that used as a standard device an >*anachronistic antique orthography* including the "k," that I think was in >imitation of classical Greek texts, as well as the 16th-century Spanish >substitution of "j" for "i." This orthography tends uniformly to use >block lettering. > >Mark Morris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >La muerte tiene permiso a todo > >MDM, PhD Candidate >Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. > > > From idiez at MAC.COM Wed Oct 27 15:51:52 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:51:52 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark, The "j" in question does not substitute for an "i". It is used to mark the final aspiration of the preterite form of the class 3 verb mo-yolitia (causative reverential of yoli). John On Oct 27, 2004, at 10:22 AM, Mark David Morris wrote: > Susan and John, > > Rather than a contemporary text, it also might be an example of the > memorializing wave that swept across southern Mexico from the late > 1780s > to 1840s which created or recreated "authentic" native documents, > dating > from 1517 to the 1670s, of all kinds and that used as a standard > device an > anachronistic antique orthography including the "k," that I think was > in > imitation of classical Greek texts, as well as the 16th-century Spanish > substitution of "j" for "i." This orthography tends uniformly to use > block lettering. > > Mark Morris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~ > > La muerte tiene permiso a todo > > MDM, PhD Candidate > Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 27 17:34:30 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:34:30 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I Found This "CUENTO" in the Guerrero Nahuatl language: Utilizing the "J"....... On Tlakatl Iwan on Atemitl Se tlakatl okipix se atemitl. Yejwa okijtoj: ?Nikalaktis on atemitl ijtik sen botella niman niktomawas. Niman tla yoniktomaw nikxipewas, niman ika on itlaken nikchijchiwas notampoltsin pampa sanoyej nikwelita. Kemaj melawak okichijchiw itampoltsin. Niman sanoyej kwaltsin okixtij. Niman on itampoltsin okitsotsonato kampa ilwipan. Ompa on tlakamej okwelkakilijkej, niman opew kitlajtoltiaj: ??Tlen, yolkatl itlaken on yejwan ika otikchijchi on motampoltsin? Niman yejwa okimijlij: ?On yolkatl sanoyej weyi yolkatl. In okijtoj pampa xkinekiya kimijlis on tlen melawak. Niman sanoyej opew kitlajtoltiaj, okimijlij ika on itlaken on atemitl. Niman yejwa okimijlij: ?In sanoyej kwajli para ika nankichijchiwaskej nemotampoltsin. Achtopa xkalaktikan ijtik sen botella, niman xtlakwaltikan sanoyej hasta kampa ma tomawi. Niman tla yotomaw xxipewakan. Niman ika on itlakentsin xchijchiwakan nemotampoltsin. Niman on tlakamej okijlijkej: ?Ma timitskowilikan motampoltsin, niman tejwa okse tikchijchiwas. Niman yejwa okiminnamakiltij sanoyej patiyo. Yejwa okajkayajkej pampa xok keman okinextij okse itampoltsin yejwan kwaltsin ken on yejwan kipiyaya. Ijkon tej, tlami ikwento on tlakatl niman on atemitl. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US Wed Oct 27 20:06:55 2004 From: gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US (Fuentes, Gloria) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:06:55 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero Message-ID: What is the Translation? glo _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of DARKHORSE Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:35 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Nahuatl text from Guerrero I Found This "CUENTO" in the Guerrero Nahuatl language: Utilizing the "J"....... On Tlakatl Iwan on Atemitl Se tlakatl okipix se atemitl. Yejwa okijtoj: -Nikalaktis on atemitl ijtik sen botella niman niktomawas. Niman tla yoniktomaw nikxipewas, niman ika on itlaken nikchijchiwas notampoltsin pampa sanoyej nikwelita. Kemaj melawak okichijchiw itampoltsin. Niman sanoyej kwaltsin okixtij. Niman on itampoltsin okitsotsonato kampa ilwipan. Ompa on tlakamej okwelkakilijkej, niman opew kitlajtoltiaj: -?Tlen, yolkatl itlaken on yejwan ika otikchijchi on motampoltsin? Niman yejwa okimijlij: -On yolkatl sanoyej weyi yolkatl. In okijtoj pampa xkinekiya kimijlis on tlen melawak. Niman sanoyej opew kitlajtoltiaj, okimijlij ika on itlaken on atemitl. Niman yejwa okimijlij: -In sanoyej kwajli para ika nankichijchiwaskej nemotampoltsin. Achtopa xkalaktikan ijtik sen botella, niman xtlakwaltikan sanoyej hasta kampa ma tomawi. Niman tla yotomaw xxipewakan. Niman ika on itlakentsin xchijchiwakan nemotampoltsin. Niman on tlakamej okijlijkej: -Ma timitskowilikan motampoltsin, niman tejwa okse tikchijchiwas. Niman yejwa okiminnamakiltij sanoyej patiyo. Yejwa okajkayajkej pampa xok keman okinextij okse itampoltsin yejwan kwaltsin ken on yejwan kipiyaya. Ijkon tej, tlami ikwento on tlakatl niman on atemitl. _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 28 15:42:10 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:42:10 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: <01015FD91DEF9547B915E66C722FF5920161EC5D@CHCCLUS01.sbccd.int> Message-ID: Hmm, I knew ya was gonna asketh moi that....... So here goes...... EL PIOJO Y EL HOMBRE Un hombre ten?a un piojo, y se dijo a s? mismo: ?Voy a meter este piojo en una botella y lo voy a engordar. Y ya que lo engorde, lo voy a pelar y con su piel me voy a hacer un tambor, porque los tambores me gustan mucho. Y realmente hizo despu?s un tambor y lo hizo muy bonito. Entonces llev? su tambor a una fiesta y lo estuvo tocando. Como a la gente le gust? mucho su sonido, le comenzaron a preguntar: ??De qu? animal es la piel con que hiciste tu tambor? Y ?l les contest?: ?El animal que us? para hacer mi tambor es un gran animal. Esto les contest? porque no quer?a decir la verdad. Pero como le preguntaron mucho, les tuvo que decir que era piel de un piojo. Les dijo adem?s: ?Su piel es muy buena para hacer tambores. Primero m?tanlo en una botella y denle de comer mucho hasta que engorde. Cuando ya est? gordo, p?lenlo y con su piel van a poder hacer su tambor. Entonces esas personas le dijeron: ?V?ndenos tu tambor y te vuelves a hacer otro. Y ?l si se los vendi?, y muy caro. Pero lo hab?an enga?ado, porque ya nunca pudo hacer otro tambor tan bonito como el que ten?a. As? es como termina este cuento del hombre y el piojo. nOW YOU TRANSLATE INTO ingles CHULA....... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From susana at LOSRANCHEROS.ORG Fri Oct 29 07:52:24 2004 From: susana at LOSRANCHEROS.ORG (S. Moraleda) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:52:24 +0200 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero Message-ID: Thanks for your comments, but maybe I didn't make my question clear. Actually it is the semantics and morphology with which I wanted help, and more specifically: And OK, I take it that it is a modern text. TLENO O TIK TEMIMIKIKO PAN IN TLALTICPAKTLI? Is "tleno" with a final "o" typical of the Guerrero dialect? Why a reduplication of the "mi" in "temimikiko"? Why a "co" termination for the preterite and not a "ca"? Why "tlalticpaktli" with a final "tli"? SAN O TI MO IJIYOTIKO? OK, "ihiyotia" is a reflexive verb, so it needs the "mo", but Why termination in "ko"? is this the "towards here" sense? SAN O TI NEMIKO? Again "co" and not "ca"? TLENIKA O TI NEMIKO? What is the meaning of "tlenika"? KENO O TI MOYOLITIJ? Why "keno" with a final "o"? is this typical of Guerrero? "Yolitia" is not a reflexive verb, but a causative, so it is a reverential construction, right? So why "otimoyolitih" and not "otimoyolitia"? Would the "ti" be the first person plural, given the termination in a glottal stop? But why then not "timoyolitiah"? THANKS AGAIN- Susana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US Fri Oct 29 13:33:58 2004 From: gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US (Fuentes, Gloria) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:33:58 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero Message-ID: Okay, Well I don't really know what a piojo is except for a lice??? (well!!) So anyways a man had this Piojo and he told himself he was going to save it in a jar and get it fat. And then when it gets real fat I am going to use its skin to make a drum, because he really liked the drums. So he made the drum and it was very pretty. Then he went to a celebration with his drum, and he was playing it for the people and they liked the sound of it a lot. They asked him from what animal did you get this skin to make this drum? He told the them that the animal he used to make his drum was a great animal, of course he wasn't telling the truth. But they kept on asking him so he finally told them it was the skin of a piojo. He also told them the skin is very good to make drums with. He told them how he first put the piojo in a jar and fattened him up, then they could take the skin to make their drum. The people wanted him to make another drum as beautiful as this one but he knew he could never make another one that pretty. And so this is the story of the man and his piojo. How is that translation. I know my dad is a full blood Mexican Mayan and I was even born in Zacatecas and can barely speak the language! YIKIES _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of DARKHORSE Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 8:42 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Nahuatl text from Guerrero Hmm, I knew ya was gonna asketh moi that....... So here goes...... EL PIOJO Y EL HOMBRE Un hombre ten?a un piojo, y se dijo a s? mismo: -Voy a meter este piojo en una botella y lo voy a engordar. Y ya que lo engorde, lo voy a pelar y con su piel me voy a hacer un tambor, porque los tambores me gustan mucho. Y realmente hizo despu?s un tambor y lo hizo muy bonito. Entonces llev? su tambor a una fiesta y lo estuvo tocando. Como a la gente le gust? mucho su sonido, le comenzaron a preguntar: -?De qu? animal es la piel con que hiciste tu tambor? Y ?l les contest?: -El animal que us? para hacer mi tambor es un gran animal. Esto les contest? porque no quer?a decir la verdad. Pero como le preguntaron mucho, les tuvo que decir que era piel de un piojo. Les dijo adem?s: -Su piel es muy buena para hacer tambores. Primero m?tanlo en una botella y denle de comer mucho hasta que engorde. Cuando ya est? gordo, p?lenlo y con su piel van a poder hacer su tambor. Entonces esas personas le dijeron: -V?ndenos tu tambor y te vuelves a hacer otro. Y ?l si se los vendi?, y muy caro. Pero lo hab?an enga?ado, porque ya nunca pudo hacer otro tambor tan bonito como el que ten?a. As? es como termina este cuento del hombre y el piojo. nOW YOU TRANSLATE INTO ingles CHULA....... _____ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 29 16:16:39 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:16:39 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: <01015FD91DEF9547B915E66C722FF592095F78@CHCCLUS01.sbccd.int> Message-ID: Correcto Mundo as Fonzi said....... Poor Louse eh? You did very well Gloria... There are so many tales and songs that are still being passed on one in particular is that one and another one is "EL PIOJO Y LA PULGA" it is a children's song... Until again..... Man Ze Kualli Tonalli Ximo Panoltik ( May You Spend a Good Day! )....... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US Fri Oct 29 16:23:35 2004 From: gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US (Fuentes, Gloria) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:23:35 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero Message-ID: Okay I want to see it...smile! gloria _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of DARKHORSE Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 9:17 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Nahuatl text from Guerrero Correcto Mundo as Fonzi said....... Poor Louse eh? You did very well Gloria... There are so many tales and songs that are still being passed on one in particular is that one and another one is "EL PIOJO Y LA PULGA" it is a children's song... Until again..... Man Ze Kualli Tonalli Ximo Panoltik ( May You Spend a Good Day! )....... _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 29 16:50:11 2004 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:50:11 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: <01015FD91DEF9547B915E66C722FF5920161EC60@CHCCLUS01.sbccd.int> Message-ID: GLORIA , Aqui esta, pero no en Nahuatl..... No lo encontre en nahuatl.... JUEGOS PARA NI?OSEL PIOJO Y LA PULGA El piojo y la pulga se van a casar, si no se han casado es por falta de pan. Responde la hormiga desde su hormigal: -que se hagan las bodas, que yo dar? el pan. -?Albricias, albricias, ya el pan lo tenemos! Pero ahora la carne, ?d?nde la hallaremos? Un lobo responde desde aquellos cerros: -que se hagan las bodas, yo dar? becerros. -?Albricias, albricias, ya carne tenemos! Pero ahora el vino, ?d?nde lo hallaremos? Responde un mosquito de lo alto de un pino: -que se hagan las bodas, que yo dar? el vino. -?Albricias, albricias, ya el vino tenemos! Pero ahora quien toque, ?d?nde lo hallaremos? Responde la ara?a desde su ara?al: -que se hagan las bodas, yo ir? a tocar. -?Albricias, albricias, quien toque tenemos! Pero ahora quien baile, ?d?nde lo hallaremos? Responde una mona desde su monal: -que se hagan las bodas, que yo ir? a bailar. -?Albricias, albricias, quien baile tenemos! Pero ahora quien cante, ?d?nde lo hallaremos? Responde una rana, desde su ranal: -que se hagan las bodas, que yo ir? a cantar. -?Albricias, albricias, quien cante tenemos, pero ahora madrina, ?d?nde la hallaremos? Responde la gata desde la cocina: -que se hagan las bodas, yo ser? madrina. -?Albricias, albricias, madrina tenemos, pero ahora padrino, ?d?nde lo hallaremos? Responde un rat?n, de su ratonal: -que se hagan las bodas, yo ire a apadrinar. Se hizo la boda, hubo mucho vino, salt? la madrina y se comi? al padrino. En la madrugada, cuando el sol sali?, no hubo ni un changuito que no se rasc?. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Fri Oct 29 17:21:11 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:21:11 +0100 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: <20041029165011.8980.qmail@web40703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: --- DARKHORSE wrote: > GLORIA , > Aqui esta, pero no en Nahuatl..... No lo encontre en nahuatl.... > JUEGOS PARA NI?OSEL PIOJO Y LA PULGA > El piojo y la pulga se van a casar, ... Here is an Altavista translation, which I tidied. The words in [square brackets] are Spanish words that Altavista's translator refused at. GAMES FOR CHILDREN the LOUSE and the FLEA The louse and the flea are going away to marry, if they have not married is by lack of bread. Responds the ant from his ants'-nest: - that becomes the weddings, that I will give the bread. - Rewards, rewards, already the bread we have it! But now the meat, where we will find it? A wolf responds from those hills: - that the weddings become, I will give yearling calves. - Rewards, rewards, already meat we have! But now the wine, where we will find it? Responds a mosquito of the stop of a pine: - that becomes the weddings, that I will give the wine. - Rewards, rewards, already the wine we have! But now who touches, where we will find it? Responds the spider from its web: - that the weddings become, I will touch. - Rewards, rewards, that touch we have! But now who dances, where we will find it? [Mona] responds one from its [monal]: - that become the weddings, that I will dance. - Rewards, rewards, that dance we have! But now who sings, where we will find it? Responds a frog, from his frog pond: - that become the weddings, that I will sing. - Rewards, rewards, that sing we have, but now godmother, where we will find it? Responds the cat from the kitchen: - that the weddings become, I will be godmother. - Rewards, rewards, godmother we have, but now padrino, where we will find it? Responds a mouse, of its mouse-hole: - that the weddings become, I will go to support. The wedding became, had much wine, jumped the godmother and it ate to the padrino. At dawn, when the sun left, there was not a [changuito] that not [rasc?]. From gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US Fri Oct 29 18:47:54 2004 From: gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US (Fuentes, Gloria) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:47:54 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero Message-ID: Okay well even if not in Nahuatl, I have it in english and can translate it to spanish. Thank you, gloria -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of ANTHONY APPLEYARD Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 10:21 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Nahuatl text from Guerrero --- DARKHORSE wrote: > GLORIA , > Aqui esta, pero no en Nahuatl..... No lo encontre en nahuatl.... > JUEGOS PARA NI?OSEL PIOJO Y LA PULGA > El piojo y la pulga se van a casar, ... Here is an Altavista translation, which I tidied. The words in [square brackets] are Spanish words that Altavista's translator refused at. GAMES FOR CHILDREN the LOUSE and the FLEA The louse and the flea are going away to marry, if they have not married is by lack of bread. Responds the ant from his ants'-nest: - that becomes the weddings, that I will give the bread. - Rewards, rewards, already the bread we have it! But now the meat, where we will find it? A wolf responds from those hills: - that the weddings become, I will give yearling calves. - Rewards, rewards, already meat we have! But now the wine, where we will find it? Responds a mosquito of the stop of a pine: - that becomes the weddings, that I will give the wine. - Rewards, rewards, already the wine we have! But now who touches, where we will find it? Responds the spider from its web: - that the weddings become, I will touch. - Rewards, rewards, that touch we have! But now who dances, where we will find it? [Mona] responds one from its [monal]: - that become the weddings, that I will dance. - Rewards, rewards, that dance we have! But now who sings, where we will find it? Responds a frog, from his frog pond: - that become the weddings, that I will sing. - Rewards, rewards, that sing we have, but now godmother, where we will find it? Responds the cat from the kitchen: - that the weddings become, I will be godmother. - Rewards, rewards, godmother we have, but now padrino, where we will find it? Responds a mouse, of its mouse-hole: - that the weddings become, I will go to support. The wedding became, had much wine, jumped the godmother and it ate to the padrino. At dawn, when the sun left, there was not a [changuito] that not [rasc?]. From gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US Fri Oct 29 19:11:27 2004 From: gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US (Fuentes, Gloria) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:11:27 -0700 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero Message-ID: Thank you, I missed this one. _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of DARKHORSE Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 9:50 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Nahuatl text from Guerrero GLORIA , Aqui esta, pero no en Nahuatl..... No lo encontre en nahuatl.... JUEGOS PARA NI?OS EL PIOJO Y LA PULGA El piojo y la pulga se van a casar, si no se han casado es por falta de pan. Responde la hormiga desde su hormigal: -que se hagan las bodas, que yo dar? el pan. -?Albricias, albricias, ya el pan lo tenemos! Pero ahora la carne, ?d?nde la hallaremos? Un lobo responde desde aquellos cerros: -que se hagan las bodas, yo dar? becerros. -?Albricias, albricias, ya carne tenemos! Pero ahora el vino, ?d?nde lo hallaremos? Responde un mosquito de lo alto de un pino: -que se hagan las bodas, que yo dar? el vino. -?Albricias, albricias, ya el vino tenemos! Pero ahora quien toque, ?d?nde lo hallaremos? Responde la ara?a desde su ara?al: -que se hagan las bodas, yo ir? a tocar. -?Albricias, albricias, quien toque tenemos! Pero ahora quien baile, ?d?nde lo hallaremos? Responde una mona desde su monal: -que se hagan las bodas, que yo ir? a bailar. -?Albricias, albricias, quien baile tenemos! Pero ahora quien cante, ?d?nde lo hallaremos? Responde una rana, desde su ranal: -que se hagan las bodas, que yo ir? a cantar. -?Albricias, albricias, quien cante tenemos, pero ahora madrina, ?d?nde la hallaremos? Responde la gata desde la cocina: -que se hagan las bodas, yo ser? madrina. -?Albricias, albricias, madrina tenemos, pero ahora padrino, ?d?nde lo hallaremos? Responde un rat?n, de su ratonal: -que se hagan las bodas, yo ire a apadrinar. Se hizo la boda, hubo mucho vino, salt? la madrina y se comi? al padrino. En la madrugada, cuando el sol sali?, no hubo ni un changuito que no se rasc?. _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Sat Oct 30 01:40:42 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 20:40:42 -0500 Subject: Nahuatl text from Guerrero In-Reply-To: <037a01c4bbad$43ea9580$5ccf623e@mexico> Message-ID: Susana, So far, it looks like you're doing well with the translation. I am almost wholly unfamiliar with the particulars of Nahuatl in Guerrero. I will offer a couple of tips that might help resolve your questions about the text. First, it is always helpful to put the text into semantic order, i.e. make word divisions. Second, I think you'd want to translate ihiyotia as "suffer" as in suffering the cares and fatigues of this world. I don't know why timoyolitih has a final aspiration but I think the context would best suggest second person singular (you) as the subject. The -ko is the singular (usually) "come" that modifies the verbs of lines 1-3, as you noted in your translation. I think the "mo" is more reflexive than reverential, although I, personally, don't really recognize a fast distinction between the two, but think instead of different connotations of indirectness. Consider, for example, that often the over-use of the reflexive in Mexican Spanish is not exactly to describe the type of action, but to give the speech courtesy, e.g. "se solto el alambre del poste y los cochinitos se metieron en la milpa." In this case, however, I think it mostly is signaling the action in the subject. Finally, I think the text plays with the double sense of nemi as live and walk/move, nenemi usually being used to talk about walking around while yoli refers to being quick with life, animate, so there is some kind of metaphysical significance in juxtaposing the two. Mark Morris On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, S. Moraleda wrote: > I would apreciate it if someone could help me with the translation of the following (apparently XVII century, I am told) Nahuatl text from Guerrero. I've given it a try, but would like a detailed analysis of etymology et al. > The transliteration is exactly as it was given to me. > > Tleno o tik temimikiko pan in tlaltikpaktli? > San o ti mo ijiyotiko? > San oti nemiko? > Tlenika o ti nemiko? > Keno o ti moyolitij? > > I've come up with: > > Que veniste a so?ar en la tierra? > Solo veniste a (resollar?) tomar aliento? > Solo veniste a vivir? > Para qu? veniste a vivir? > Como fuiste a vivir? > > Is the second and the fourth line a reverential construction? or a reflexive one? > What are all those "ko" at the end? locative? > > Thank you. > Susana > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ.