From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Wed Sep 1 01:06:21 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:06:21 -0400 Subject: Otonteuctli icuic In-Reply-To: <4134C384.5040008@ui.boe.es> Message-ID: On Aug 31, 2004, at 2:29 PM, Carlos Santamarina wrote: > A sentence from the Florentine Codex. There’s no spanish version, > because on the left the page is blank. The context is about > Otontecutli, the otomi god. > We have to know that Cuecuex is the tepanec name of the same god, and > otomi and tepanec are from the same ethnic family: > > > «Otontecutli icujc > [...] > Nitepanecatl aiacuecuexi niquetzalcoatly, aia cuecuexi... » > (Florentine Codex book 2º, appendix: 141) > > “Otontecutli's song > I am tepaneca ...................... I am Quetzalcoatl (?), > ....................” > > > > Thank you all. > > I think that one thing going on here is intrusion of vocables into the verse. So with different spacing, etc., it would read: Nitepanecatl [aya] cuecuex i[n] niquetzalcoatl [y aya] cuecuex i[n] I'm not sure about the "i[n]"s, but "aya" is common in the old songs. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 927 bytes Desc: not available URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Wed Sep 1 18:18:32 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:18:32 -0500 Subject: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos Message-ID: Listeros, Who can I cite as the first person to use the term, "bifrasismo", or "difrasismo" to refer to the doublet phrases used so commonly in nahuatl? I've used these two terms for at least 13 years now in my teaching, and I don`t remember if I made them up myself from the word "doublet" or if I read them somewhere. John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Sep 1 19:02:04 2004 From: jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:02:04 -0700 Subject: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <551B4BC8-FC43-11D8-82FA-003065C46A4A@mac.com> Message-ID: John: If I remember correctly the term difrasismo was first used by Angel Maria Garibay, K. I don't knwo exactly where but my guess would be as early as Llave del nahuatl (1940) or in his Historia de la literatura nahuatl (1949). Jose >Listeros, > Who can I cite as the first person to use the term, >"bifrasismo", or "difrasismo" to refer to the doublet phrases used >so commonly in nahuatl? I've used these two terms for at least 13 >years now in my teaching, and I don`t remember if I made them up >myself from the word "doublet" or if I read them somewhere. > >John Sullivan, Ph.D. >Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua >Unidad Académica de Idiomas >Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas >Director >Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. >Tacuba 152, int. 47 >Centro Histórico >Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >México >Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 >Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 >Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 >Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 >idiez at mac.com >www.idiez.org.mx -- From ealtamir at YAHOO.COM Wed Sep 1 19:22:26 2004 From: ealtamir at YAHOO.COM (Edgar Altamirano) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:22:26 -0700 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, Ok, Angel Maria Garibay used the word difrasismo in Llave del nahuatl, you can find this word in the index INDICE ANALITICO DE LA NOTICIA GRAMATICAL, section ESTILISTICA, pp 18 and 150. --- jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU wrote: > John: If I remember correctly the term difrasismo was first used by > Angel Maria Garibay, K. I don't knwo exactly where but my guess > would be as early as Llave del nahuatl (1940) or in his Historia de > la literatura nahuatl (1949). Jose > > >Listeros, > > Who can I cite as the first person to use the term, > >"bifrasismo", or "difrasismo" to refer to the doublet phrases used > >so commonly in nahuatl? I've used these two terms for at least 13 > >years now in my teaching, and I don`t remember if I made them up > >myself from the word "doublet" or if I read them somewhere. > > > >John Sullivan, Ph.D. > >Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > >Unidad Acad�mica de Idiomas > >Universidad Aut�noma de Zacatecas > >Director > >Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci�n Etnol�gica de Zacatecas, A.C. > >Tacuba 152, int. 47 > >Centro Hist�rico > >Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > >M�xico > >Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > >Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > >Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > >Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > >idiez at mac.com > >www.idiez.org.mx > > > -- > From tonantzn at CHORUS.NET Wed Sep 1 19:37:48 2004 From: tonantzn at CHORUS.NET (Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:37:48 -0500 Subject: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos Message-ID: Hola John, I think Jose is absolutely correct. Garibay defines "disfrasismos" in his Lllave del Nahuatl and in Historia de la Literatura Nahuatl. Miguel Leon-Portilla also claims that Angel Maria Garibay K. is the first to use this neologism (see his book Aztec Thought and Culture). However, since Garibay knew the Greek language almost as well as he knew Nahuatl, I would suspect that he borrowed this neologism from the Greek, "hen dia dyoin" or hendiadys which means "one through two" or "one by means of two." In the Greek as in the Hebrew language, a hendiadys is a figure of speech in which an idea is expressed by two words connected by the conjunction ("and") or sometimes even without it. The Hebrew Bible and the New Testament contain many examples of "disfrasismos" or hendiadys. Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 2:02 PM Subject: Re: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos John: If I remember correctly the term difrasismo was first used by Angel Maria Garibay, K. I don't knwo exactly where but my guess would be as early as Llave del nahuatl (1940) or in his Historia de la literatura nahuatl (1949). Jose >Listeros, > Who can I cite as the first person to use the term, >"bifrasismo", or "difrasismo" to refer to the doublet phrases used >so commonly in nahuatl? I've used these two terms for at least 13 >years now in my teaching, and I don`t remember if I made them up >myself from the word "doublet" or if I read them somewhere. > >John Sullivan, Ph.D. >Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua >Unidad Académica de Idiomas >Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas >Director >Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. >Tacuba 152, int. 47 >Centro Histórico >Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >México >Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 >Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 >Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 >Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 >idiez at mac.com >www.idiez.org.mx -- From micc2 at COX.NET Wed Sep 1 23:52:54 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:52:54 -0700 Subject: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <551B4BC8-FC43-11D8-82FA-003065C46A4A@mac.com> Message-ID: Garibay? idiez at MAC.COM wrote: > Listeros, > Who can I cite as the first person to use the term, > "bifrasismo", or "difrasismo" to refer to the doublet phrases used so > commonly in nahuatl? I've used these two terms for at least 13 years > now in my teaching, and I don`t remember if I made them up myself from > the word "doublet" or if I read them somewhere. > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Unidad Académica de Idiomas > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Histórico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > México > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > From gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US Wed Sep 1 23:36:55 2004 From: gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US (Fuentes, Gloria) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:36:55 -0700 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos Message-ID: Can someone tell me what those words mean? -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Edgar Altamirano Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 12:22 PM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos Yes, Ok, Angel Maria Garibay used the word difrasismo in Llave del nahuatl, you can find this word in the index INDICE ANALITICO DE LA NOTICIA GRAMATICAL, section ESTILISTICA, pp 18 and 150. --- jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU wrote: > John: If I remember correctly the term difrasismo was first used by > Angel Maria Garibay, K. I don't knwo exactly where but my guess would > be as early as Llave del nahuatl (1940) or in his Historia de la > literatura nahuatl (1949). Jose > > >Listeros, > > Who can I cite as the first person to use the term, > >"bifrasismo", or "difrasismo" to refer to the doublet phrases used so > >commonly in nahuatl? I've used these two terms for at least 13 years > >now in my teaching, and I don`t remember if I made them up myself > >from the word "doublet" or if I read them somewhere. > > > >John Sullivan, Ph.D. > >Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > >Unidad Académica de Idiomas > >Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > >Director > >Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. > >Tacuba 152, int. 47 > >Centro Histórico > >Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > >México > >Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > >Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > >Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > >Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > >idiez at mac.com > >www.idiez.org.mx > > > -- > From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 2 01:36:47 2004 From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:36:47 -0400 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <01015FD91DEF9547B915E66C722FF5920161EB46@CHCCLUS01.sbccd.int> Message-ID: Hi, Gloria: On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:36:55 -0700, Fuentes, Gloria wrote: > Can someone tell me what those words mean? I believe the classical definition is as follows: "a parallel couplet containing a pair of metaphors that together expresses a single thought." Here are two common examples: in atl in tlachinolli - "water and fire" - war in xochitl in cuicatl - "flower and song" - poetry Hope this helps. -Geoff -Geoff From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Thu Sep 2 06:52:24 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:52:24 +0100 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <990456820409011836697b10a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: --- Geoff Davis wrote: >... Here are two common examples: > in atl in tlachinolli - "water and fire" - war > in xochitl in cuicatl - "flower and song" - poetry Andrews's book translates difrasismos as e.g. "It is a flower and it is a song". In "it is water and it is fire" used to mean "it is war", I know that war all too often involves setting buildings on fire, but where does water come into it? Does it refer to war canoes? Or does the phrase refer to water and fire being incompatible "elements"? Citlalyani From micc2 at COX.NET Thu Sep 2 07:04:50 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 00:04:50 -0700 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <20040902065224.1851.qmail@web86701.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: the effects of water and fire have nothing to do with this disfrasismo except that: when fire overwhelms water, hot (and sometimes violent) steam is sent out.... when water overcomes fire, it causes flames to shoot out as it puts the fire out... and again steam (and smoke this time) are sent out violently. it is this great release of violence and energy that symbolize war, not how water or fire were used in battle. mario cuauhtlehcoc www.mexicayotl.org ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: > --- Geoff Davis wrote: > > >>... Here are two common examples: >>in atl in tlachinolli - "water and fire" - war >>in xochitl in cuicatl - "flower and song" - poetry >> >> > >Andrews's book translates difrasismos as e.g. "It is a flower and it is >a song". > >In "it is water and it is fire" used to mean "it is war", I know that >war all too often involves setting buildings on fire, but where does >water come into it? Does it refer to war canoes? Or does the phrase >refer to water and fire being incompatible "elements"? > >Citlalyani > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 2 11:40:24 2004 From: cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET (Joanna M. Sanchez) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:40:24 -0400 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos Message-ID: I would add that the two elements- water and fire/'burning'- while mutually exclusive in nature (as you point out, one overwhelms the other), they are maintained in the blood of the human body, which has properties of liquid and heat- I have always sensed that this couplet therefore has multiple referential loci- principally: 1) opposition inherent in conflict; and 2) a reference to blood (human liquid counterpart to water/rain) as the offering prescribed by the 'covenant' to feed the divine powers- this substance is manifested through warfare, and would thus be considered an essential component of the hydraulic cycle (see Monaghan 1995 Covenants with Earth and Rain. Joanna ----- Original Message ----- From: micc2 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 3:04 AM Subject: Re: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos the effects of water and fire have nothing to do with this disfrasismo except that: when fire overwhelms water, hot (and sometimes violent) steam is sent out.... when water overcomes fire, it causes flames to shoot out as it puts the fire out... and again steam (and smoke this time) are sent out violently. it is this great release of violence and energy that symbolize war, not how water or fire were used in battle. mario cuauhtlehcoc www.mexicayotl.org ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: --- Geoff Davis wrote: ... Here are two common examples: in atl in tlachinolli - "water and fire" - war in xochitl in cuicatl - "flower and song" - poetry Andrews's book translates difrasismos as e.g. "It is a flower and it is a song". In "it is water and it is fire" used to mean "it is war", I know that war all too often involves setting buildings on fire, but where does water come into it? Does it refer to war canoes? Or does the phrase refer to water and fire being incompatible "elements"? Citlalyani -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 2 11:47:07 2004 From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:47:07 -0400 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <20040902065224.1851.qmail@web86701.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:52:24 +0100, ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: > Andrews's book translates difrasismos as e.g. "It is a > flower and it is a song". That's another valid translation. :D The same difrasismo used above may appear translated as "the flower, the song," "it is a flower, it is a song," or "flower and song." Or, perhaps even other ways. One sees these different translations because English and Nahuatl differ substantially in structure. In Nahuatl, virtually any absolutive element can be interpreted as a stand-alone sentence. Depending upon context, it may not make a lot of sense if the most literal translation is made. > In "it is water and it is fire" used to mean "it is war", I know that > war all too often involves setting buildings on fire, but where does > water come into it? Does it refer to war canoes? Or does the > phrase refer to water and fire being incompatible "elements"? Personally, I always felt it was the dynamic opposition of these two things that symbolized war. -Geoff From Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM Thu Sep 2 15:05:56 2004 From: Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM (Irene Padilla) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 08:05:56 -0700 Subject: Translation Message-ID: Can someone please translate There's No me without you thanks ~Irene -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Thu Sep 2 23:20:08 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:20:08 -0500 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <002201c490e1$a8b9b280$a0a15b40@o9l8c6> Message-ID: Regarding in atl, in tlachinolli, it may also be important to bear in mind that tlachinolli most directly refers to the kind of burning done in agricultural fields. What I'm suggesting is that war was being metaphorically equated to an agricultural cycle. best, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 2 23:56:08 2004 From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 19:56:08 -0400 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:20:08 -0500, Mark David Morris wrote: > Regarding in atl, in tlachinolli, it may also be important > to bear in mind that tlachinolli most directly refers to the > kind of burning done in agricultural fields. What I'm > suggesting is that war was being metaphorically equated > to an agricultural cycle. I wasn't aware of the correlation between tlachinolli and field burning, which may just go to show my inexperience. I had, though, considered the possibility that there was an agricultural significance to the terminology, but hadn't the knowledge to prove it beyond "just a hunch". Principally, I drew my conclusion from the idea that what I was reading was a juxtaposing of elements that represented, at some level, the wet and dry seasons of Mexico. It seems to me this has significant parallel with the role of destruction-balance (war?) in Hinduism, albeit in a different context. I could, of course, be totally off base -- on account of being still a newbie. Are there others who also see this correlation? Kind regards, -Geoff From swood at DARKWING.UOREGON.EDU Fri Sep 3 00:12:42 2004 From: swood at DARKWING.UOREGON.EDU (Stephanie Wood) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 17:12:42 -0700 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos Message-ID: It has been fun seeing the many interpretations of in atl, in tlachinolli. Is there energy to build a similar thread with the implications behind in atl, in tepetl? --Stephanie From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Fri Sep 3 05:25:35 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:25:35 +0100 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <001101c4914a$bb779400$3281df80@uoregon.edu> Message-ID: --- Stephanie Wood wrote: > ... the implications behind in atl, in tepetl? If you mean "atltepetl" = "it is water and it is a hill" = "it is a village: in the Valley of Mexico the village needs water for drinking and irrigation, and preferably a hill to build a fort on or to live on out of reach of floods. Or else, where there has beenb a village for a long time, the ground slowly builds up into a mound. From wbarnes at TULANE.EDU Fri Sep 3 05:26:56 2004 From: wbarnes at TULANE.EDU (William L. Barnes) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 22:26:56 -0700 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos (atl-tlachinolli) In-Reply-To: <001101c4914a$bb779400$3281df80@uoregon.edu> Message-ID: While this is a bit off the track from Garibay's introduction of 'difrasismo' - off the top of my head, in terms of the atl-tlachinolli diphrasism, one should look to Seler's correct assumption that it is actually teo-atl that is depicted in pre-Hisp. visual texts. That is, the reference is to "divine water" or blood (Seler 1990:2:92-93 [the Labrynthos trans]). In pre-European visual texts (for example, the Teocalli of Sacred Warfare), the teo-atl scroll segment of this spoken phrase is usually depicted as water - but water that comes from the mouth of a supernatural (whether a divine or a semi-divine individual). The speaker, then, would serve as a semantic indicator for the "teo" modifier. The tlachinolli speech-scroll (literally something[land?] burning) is usually depicted as a headless (fire?)serpent, identifiable (again, i.e. the Teocalli) by its segmented body - and the scalloped rent flesh and "spurt" of blood/flame at its end. The same crescent forms used in visual texts to identify furrows in plots of land (i.e. place-name glyphs for Xochimilco) often show up on the underbelly of these headless 'tlachinolli' serpents suggesting that it is, indeed, agricultural land being burned. In terms of metaphors and diphrasims for warfare, the Nahuas were not alone in referencing blood spilled & fields burned. As for atl-tepetl or in atl in tepetl, I don't have much in the way of visual evidence aside from the common place-name glyph of a hill with water flowing from below - although one should keep in mind the diphrasism for a person "gone wild" involves "throwing oneself off the hill and into the water" - literally, becoming un-civilized (also referenced by "becoming the deer, becoming the hare" - I don't have Olmos in front of me, but it's in there). The fact that most civilized/urban locales (like Teotihuacan or, later, Tenochtitlan & etc.) were made of stone & had access to fresh water via lakes, rivers, and/or canals, probably played some role in this . . . WB ____________________________________________ William L. Barnes School of Art, Design and Art History San Diego State University 5500 Campanile Drive San Diego, CA 92182-4805 Phone:(619) 594-5918 Fax: (619) 594-1217 email: wbarnes at mail.sdsu.edu ____________________________________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: Nahua language and culture discussion > [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU]On Behalf Of Stephanie Wood > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 5:13 PM > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Re: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos > > > It has been fun seeing the many interpretations of in atl, > in tlachinolli. > Is there energy to build a similar thread with the > implications behind in > atl, in tepetl? > > --Stephanie > From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Fri Sep 3 08:08:34 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:08:34 +0100 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos (atl-tlachinolli) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Andrews's book "Classical Nauhatl" describes difrasmosmos at section 31.8 and section 52.4, and lists many. From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri Sep 3 11:20:45 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:20:45 -0500 Subject: Translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: nehhuatl ahnicah in tla tehhuatl ahticah. Quoting Irene Padilla : > Can someone please translate > There's No me without you > thanks > ~Irene From cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Sep 3 11:48:21 2004 From: cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET (Joanna M. Sanchez) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:48:21 -0400 Subject: Fw: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos Message-ID: My earlier message appears not to have been successfully received; I therefore reiterate: Couplets are, as many have pointed out, a feature of ritual languages, and as such, their referential values are sometimes obscured by convention and design. When this is the case, meaning is likely linked to some feature of ideology. I would say that the two elements of atl tlachinolli- water and fire/'burning'- while mutually exclusive in nature (as pointed out, one overwhelms the other, violently releasing the ephemeral 'steam'), are maintained in the blood of the human body, having properties of both liquid and heat. This confounds the apparent exclusivity of the elements. I therefore sense that this couplet has two main referential loci- principally: 1) opposition- an inherent dimension of conflict; dry/wet seasons could relate to this oppositional dynamic; and 2) a reference to blood (human liquid counterpart to water/rain) as the offering element prescribed by the 'covenant' to feed the divine powers- this substance is manifested through warfare, and is considered an essential component of the hydraulic cycle (see Monaghan 1995 Covenants with Earth and Rain). About the atl tepetl pairing, as hills are believed to be receptacles for water, they make good settlement locations. A more esoteric reading might entail seeing hills as dwelling places of ancestral and rain spirits, and water, of course 'divine' water, as the enabler of all life. Joanna ----- Original Message ----- From: micc2 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 3:04 AM Subject: Re: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos the effects of water and fire have nothing to do with this disfrasismo except that: when fire overwhelms water, hot (and sometimes violent) steam is sent out.... when water overcomes fire, it causes flames to shoot out as it puts the fire out... and again steam (and smoke this time) are sent out violently. it is this great release of violence and energy that symbolize war, not how water or fire were used in battle. mario cuauhtlehcoc www.mexicayotl.org ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: --- Geoff Davis wrote: ... Here are two common examples: in atl in tlachinolli - "water and fire" - war in xochitl in cuicatl - "flower and song" - poetry Andrews's book translates difrasismos as e.g. "It is a flower and it is a song". In "it is water and it is fire" used to mean "it is war", I know that war all too often involves setting buildings on fire, but where does water come into it? Does it refer to war canoes? Or does the phrase refer to water and fire being incompatible "elements"? Citlalyani -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU Fri Sep 3 13:28:20 2004 From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:28:20 -0600 Subject: "Mexico" Message-ID: Does anyone here know when the word "Mexico" was first used as a (rough) equivalent for "New Spain" (or at least for a larger region than Tenochtitlan or the Valley of Mexico? Richley From Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM Fri Sep 3 13:30:09 2004 From: Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM (Irene Padilla) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:30:09 -0700 Subject: Translation In-Reply-To: <1094210445.4138538d6e6e3@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Thank you so much!!~Irene mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Sent by: Nahua language and culture discussion 09/03/04 04:20 AM Please respond to Nahua language and culture discussion To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU cc: Subject: Re: Translation nehhuatl ahnicah in tla tehhuatl ahticah. Quoting Irene Padilla : > Can someone please translate > There's No me without you > thanks > ~Irene -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Fri Sep 3 14:31:20 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:31:20 -0500 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <20040903052535.61898.qmail@web86703.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Anthony, The only problem is that in accordance with Mesoamerican sacred landscape, indigenous people prefered living in marshy areas and ravines which were prone to flooding. And they prefered living at the foot of the sacred hill (which should have caves with springs running out of them), not on top of it. The sacred hill itself can be thought of as a womb or water filled gourd, representing the primordial lake in which humanity gestated. Further, this whole mountain/aquatic system was situated normally within large natural depression, horseshoe-shaped valley or rinconada. Stephanie knows all this and more, and I'm sure she will have quite a few things to say on the topic. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Sep 3, 2004, at 12:25 AM, ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: > --- Stephanie Wood wrote: >> ... the implications behind in atl, in tepetl? > > If you mean "atltepetl" = "it is water and it is a hill" = "it is a > village: in the Valley of Mexico the village needs water for drinking > and irrigation, and preferably a hill to build a fort on or to live on > out of reach of floods. Or else, where there has beenb a village for a > long time, the ground slowly builds up into a mound. > From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Fri Sep 3 14:37:20 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:37:20 +0100 Subject: Fw: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <001401c491ab$efedf100$42a35b40@o9l8c6> Message-ID: Andrews quotes many examples, including:- - tli_lli tlapalli : it is black ink & it is color : it is writing. - Anquimotequimacah in mi_xi_tl in tla_pa_tl : you-all diligently give youself jimsonweed & Datura stramonium : you are alcoholics. [Here the two nouns are synonyms.] - mi_tl chi_malli : it is an arrow & it is a shield : it is war - i_te_ntzon i_i_xcuahmo_l : it is his beard & it is his eyebrows : it is his grandson or great grandson. - Ti_zatl ihhuitl tictla_lia : You set down white clay & a feather : You set a good example [or] You give good advice. - Ca ahmo_ i_huiya_n ye_cca_n in petlapan in icpalpan : Upon the mat & upon the seat [of authority] is indeed not in a calm place or in a good place : Being a ruler is not easy. From MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM Sat Sep 4 01:35:11 2004 From: MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM (Maria) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 18:35:11 -0700 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?D=EDa_de_muertos=2C_patrimonio_cultural_de_la_humanidad._C?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?onvocatoria?= In-Reply-To: <20040903143720.32547.qmail@web86708.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Amigos: Celebremos el día de muertos en grande, este primer año en que se cumple el aniversario de la declaración de esa fiesta como Patrimonio Cultural de la Humanidad. Yo invito. Colocaremos los testimonios en una página para difundirlos por todo el mundo. El esfuerzo colectivo dará fuerza y diversidad a esa celebración. Inscríbanse. Les estoy enviando un proyecto que les va a fascinar. Revísenlo, piénsenlo y lo hacemos, todos juntos, desde cualquier parte del planeta. Sólo tienen que tomar fotos, reunir testimonios y enviarlos o enviar sus ligas a la dirección que figura en la convocatoria adjunta. Nada complicado. Todos ya celebramos el día de muertos a nuestra manera. Es cosa de reunirnos para hacer el catálogo y convertir esa energía en energía colectiva. Vamos a mover montañas, juntos. Los saludo María Dolores Bolívar -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Convocatoria.doc Type: application/octet-stream Size: 85504 bytes Desc: not available URL: From budelberger.richard at 9ONLINE.FR Fri Sep 3 11:40:00 2004 From: budelberger.richard at 9ONLINE.FR (Budelberger, Richard) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:40:00 +0200 Subject: Otonteuctli icuic Message-ID: 16 fructidor an CCXII (le 3 septembre 2004 d. c.-d. c. g.), 13h35. ---- Message d'origine ---- De : Frances Karttunen À : NAHUAT-L Envoyé : mercredi 1 septembre 2004 03:06 Objet : Re: Otonteuctli icuic > On Aug 31, 2004, at 2:29 PM, Carlos Santamarina wrote: > >> A sentence from the /Florentine Codex/. There's no spanish version, >> because on the left the page is blank. The context is about >> Otontecutli, the otomi god. >> We have to know that Cuecuex is the tepanec name of the same god, and >> otomi and tepanec are from the same ethnic family: >> >> >> «Otontecutli icujc >> [...] >> Nitepanecatl aiacuecuexi niquetzalcoatly, aia cuecuexi... » >> (/Florentine Codex book/ 2º, appendix: 141) >> >> "Otontecutli's song >> I am tepaneca ...................... I am Quetzalcoatl (?), >> ...................." >> >> >> >> Thank you all. > > > I think that one thing going on here is intrusion of vocables into the > verse. > > So with different spacing, etc., it would read: > > Nitepanecatl [aya] cuecuex i[n] niquetzalcoatl [y aya] cuecuex i[n] > > I'm not sure about the "i[n]"s, but "aya" is common in the old songs. Dear Listeros, Cf. uel . Budelberger, Richard. From MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM Sat Sep 4 18:01:25 2004 From: MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM (Maria) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 11:01:25 -0700 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Defensa_de_Teotihuac=E1n?= In-Reply-To: <4134C384.5040008@ui.boe.es> Message-ID: Amigos: Les estoy transmitiendo la carta que me enviara Alessandra Luiselli, desde Texas. Es muy importante que nos solidaricemos por la defensa de Teotihuacan. No puede ser que les heredemos a nuestros hijos en lugar de una plaza señorial. Cargada de energía, una plaza Walmart, con su consabida carga globalizante de artículos a bajo precio, productos plásticos, ropa de acrílico y nylon, infinidad de productos de consumo necesario e innecesario. ¿Útil? Ya lo creo que sí. Pero no sobre la cultura ancestral y a un lado de ese portento que muchos visitamos para llenarnos de energía y recoger, en pedazos, nuestra identidad pisoteada. Luchemos y, por favor, pellízquenme para que yo compuebe que estoy dormida. No puede ser que a algún político se le haya ocurrido poner ese Walmart, justamente ahí. ¡Recuerden, luchar ni cuesta ni empobrece, ni protestar envejece! Mándenos su aprobación de inmediato, para incluir su nombre en el desplegado que aparecerá en un diario de alta circulación. Solo tienen que hacer reply, sí, incúyanme en la línea de tema del mensaje o dirigirse a: Alessandra Luiselli: viajeraquevas at yahoo.com.mx Los abrazo. María Dolores Bolívar En defensa del Valle de Teotihuacan Fecha: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:37:11 -0500 Comité de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan El sitio arqueológico de Teotihuacan, considerado por las naciones unidas como un patrimonio de la humanidad, y uno de los tesoros espirituales y culturales de México, esta siendo acosado por fuerzas globalizadoras. En forma sorpresiva, se ha iniciado la construcción de un centro comercial de Wal Mart en las inmediaciones de las pirámides. Mediante una campaña de propaganda en bardas y en desplegados en contra del Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia, los promotores de este proyecto y sus cómplices políticos en la región, lograron aparentar que la opinión publica local esta de acuerdo con que la zona Arqueológica se vuelva un botín comercial de quien este dispuesto a pagar por medrar con el patrimonio cultural de Teotihuacan, y así el INAH ha liberado el predio respecto a las restricciones señaladas por la Ley Federal de Monumentos y zonas arqueológicas, artísticos y culturales en vigor; las autoridades estatales por su parte, otorgaron el permiso de uso de suelo, y las municipales la licencia de construcción, para un establecimiento que a todas luces afecta múltiples aspectos de la vida de la región del valle de Teotihuacan. El casco urbano de San Juan, la cabecera municipal de donde se lleva el proyecto, tiene como único acceso desde la autopista México- Pirámides, la Av. Hidalgo donde actualmente el tráfico es ya muy conflictivo, siendo la arteria principal de la población por lo que la presencia de un centro comercial, a escasos metros de esa Av., vendrá a desquiciar la vialidad en todo el pueblo, desde los tréboles de la autopista hasta el centro. Las obras se están llevando a cabo en las inmediaciones de un monumento histórico y artístico, el puente del emperador, al que afectará visualmente por estar colindante con el centro comercial en construcción, afectación que incluye las pirámides, localizadas a menos de medio kilometro de la pretendida bodega Aurrera. La construcción se esta realizando en terrenos de alta productividad agrícola, en una región donde la población mayoritariamente se dedica a la agricultura, y en forma muy importante al comercio, por lo que se considera que la presencia de un establecimiento comercial de gran superficie como el que se pretende producirá un impacto económico nefasto para la mayoría de los comercios de la región, y que implicara la deformación de los usos y costumbres tradicionales de producción y consumo en toda el área de influencia del valle de Teotihuacan, donde sus habitantes están ligados por lazos culturales e históricos a sus monumentos prehispánicos. Todas las afectaciones referidas para nada a sido puesta en consideración de la población, y, en franco desafío al principio de municipio libre, el gobierno del Estado de México, pasando por alto originalmente al ayuntamiento otorgo la licencia de uso de suelo y el ayuntamiento, - por encima de la comunidad- la licencia de construcción; además de que las autoridades del INAH y las de transito federal y estatal no ha hecho valer las leyes de las que son custodios. La población del valle de Teotihuacan ha decidido enfrentar este intento de globalizar este reducto de la historia de México, patrimonio cultural de México y de la humanidad; y apelando a las garantías que le otorgan las Constituciones de la República y la del Estado de México y las Leyes que de ella se desprenden, harán valer ante las autoridades de los tres niveles de gobierno, de los tres poderes de la unión la defensa de sus derechos, denunciando la trama de componendas e intereses que han permitido el inicio de las obras de la bodega Aurrera-WalMart en Teotihuacan. Comité de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. Teotihuacan de Arista, 15 de agosto de 2004. Mayor información Circuito Pirámides s/n Detrás de la Pirámide de la luna, con Emma Ortega Moreno tel.01(594) 95 8 23 06 > MANIFIESTO DEL VALLE DE TEOTIHUACAN Mas de 2000 años de tradición no pueden desaparecer para dar paso al proyecto de globalización en contra de un pueblo que a cada día ve debilitar su economía, mientras que los grandes capitales transnacionales amasan cuantiosas fortunas que convierten en dólares que terminan fuera del país, un país que ha pesar de contar con enormes riquezas y recursos naturales esta convirtiéndose en esclavo de su propia tierra. En este momento amargo de disolución del concepto de nación en aras de los intereses globalizadores, toca a los mexicanos de hoy defender la tierra que nos vio nacer, y a nosotros los Teotihuacanos, en particular, hacerlo con esta privilegiada porción de nuestro país donde esta plasmado en pirámides y monumentos del pasado de México. El pasado de Teotihuacan, que llega hasta nuestro presente en forma de pirámides, orgullo de México y declarado patrimonio de la humanidad, esta amenazado ahora por proyectos de las fuerzas globalizadoras que empiezan a añorar con la construcción de un centro comercial de una firma transnacional que sin duda servirá de punta de lanza para que mas adelante nuestra tierra se fraccione para la construcción de unidades habitacionales que harán que se escaseen y se encarezcan nuestra agua y los servicios públicos de que nos hemos dotado los teotihuacanos poniendo en peligro la subsistencia de las futuras generaciones. Estamos constatando dolorosamente como las autoridades del INAH, imponen a los pobladores del valle onerosas restricción y ampliación de sus viviendas pretextando la protección del patrimonio arqueológico de la zona, aunque todas las restricciones no se apliquen a los grandes intereses, como en el caso de la construcción de la bodega Aurrera por parte de la transnacional Wal Mart en un acuerdo evidente con las autoridades del INAH, del gobierno del Estado de México y del ayuntamiento, que de pronto otorga licencias y permisos para la construcción del centro comercial ya mencionado, hemos constatado como esos intereses transnacionales con sus políticas comerciales mañosas se infiltran en el consumidor mediante precios bajos para acabar con la competencia, para que una vez eliminada establezcan condiciones monopólicas en detrimento del poder adquisitivo de la población. Pero si el daño que representa la desaparición de muchos cientos de pequeños y medianos negocios es una amenaza para la economía regional, el mayor daño es el que el dinero que los consumidores gastan en el comercio tradicional vuelve a la economía de la región, y se recicla derramando beneficios para toda la población mediante la creación de nuevos empleos y de una mayor demanda, pero el dinero gastado en las cadenas transnacionales salen definitivamente del país, dejando un precario remanente para empleados locales, pues los responsables y administradores son regularmente fuereños. Puesto que la operación de un centro comercial transnacional en Teotihuacan afecta a todos los comercios de la región, que vive precisamente de la actividad comercial, consideramos indispensable defender a toda costa nuestra fuente de trabajo y las formas tradicionales de consumo de nuestras comunidades. Las disposiciones reglamentarias del uso de suelo en el valle de Teotihuacan han impedido hasta ahora el desarrollo de otras industrias que no sean la turística en toda la región por lo tanto no hay suficiente generación de empleo que no sea en la agricultura y en el autoempleo que propicia el pequeño comercio; así la desaparición de dos millares de comercios medianos y pequeños, que traería una tienda de autoservicio como la que pretende instalarse en Teotihuacan dejaría a todo el valle de Teotihuacan económicamente inerme, y con desempleo inmanejable que sin duda generaría desorden social y delincuencia. El temor y la apatía que en otro tiempo cavaron la tumba de nuestros proyectos ante la coacción de la autoridades despóticas son cosas del pasado. Hoy la solidaridad en la defensa de lo que es nuestro, nos lleva a luchas hasta la victoria. No nos vamos a quedar con los brazos cruzados viendo a nuestro Teotihuacan irse de nuestras manos, llevándose el futuro de nuestros hijos, que tienen que migrar a tierras extrañas buscando mejores oportunidades, abandonando todo, dejando a sus familias y hasta arriesgando la vida para obtener el sustento para su familia. Esta seria la ultima opción para muchos teotihuacanos que la desaparecer el pequeño comercio ante el embate de las cadena comerciales se verían obligados a emigrar. CONSIDERANDO QUE: 1.-) el INAH, cediendo a las presiones de la empresa Wal Mart testaferro Roberto Ruiz presidente del Consejo Coordinador de Teotihuacan, permitio el inicio de las obras sin un rescate arqueológico apegado a las normas de ley (art. 44 del reglamento de la ley federal sobre monumentos y zonas arqueológicas, artísticos e históricos) en un lugar en el que se han realizado hallazgos arqueológicos durante las excavaciones para la cimentación del centro comercial. Y a pesar de la afectación que harán los edificios en construcción de la perspectiva del monumento histórico y artístico del siglo XIX denominado " puente del emperador". 2.-) el gobierno del estado de México, por medio de la Secretaria de desarrollo urbano y obra publica ha concedido la licencia de uso de suelo, a pesar de que el plan de desarrollo municipal de Teotihuacan en vigor desde noviembre de 2003 prohibe expresamente la construcción de centros comerciales y tiendas departamentales en el espacio clasificado como H833A donde se ha iniciado las obras de Bodega Aurrera, terreno que estaba destinado a la producción agrícola. 3.-) Las autoridades de tránsito estatal y federal no han tomado en cuenta el impacto vial que representa el trafico en los alrededores del centro comercial, situado a unos metros de la principal y arteria vial de San Juan Teotihuacan. 4.-) El presidente municipal de Teotihuacan, Guillermo Rodríguez Céspedes deforma económica, sin mediar petición escrita de Wal Mart en un cabildazo hizo aprobar la expedición de la licencia de construcción sin mediar ni una consulta a la población, ni los estudios de impacto del proyecto comercial de esta transnacional, ni la opinión técnica en materia vial, ecológica y sanitaria sobre la construcción, y operación del centro comercial en cuestión. 5.-) Que la sociedad civil por medio de la organización de las Naciones Indígenas Unidas A.C. ya se había pronunciado por escrito ante el presidente municipal de teotihuacan, desde el mes de marzo del corriente en contra de la construcción de establecimientos comerciales transnacionales de Teotihuacan. MANIFESTAMOS: 1.-) QUE SON A TODAS LUCES ILEGALES LOS PERMISOS Y AUTORIZACIONES OTORGADOS POR EL INAH, EL GOBIERNO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO Y EL AYUNTAMIENTO DE TEOTIHUACAN, RESPECTO A LA CONSTRUCCIÓN, OPERACIÓN Y USO DE SUELO DE "BODEGA AURRERA" CON DOMICILIO EN CRUZ DE LA MISION NUMERO 8 FRACCIONAMIENTO LA PARROQUIA DE SAN JUAN TEOTIHUACAN MEXICO. 2.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL ORGANIZADA DE TEOTIHUACAN TOMA EN SUS MANOS LA DEFENSA JURIDICA DE SUS LEGITIMOS INTERESES, EN FRANCA CONTRA LA CORRUPCION DE SUS AUTORIDADES. 3.-) QUE LA CONDICION DE CENTRO ESPIRITUAL Y CULTURAL DE MEXICO QUE ATRIBUIMOS LOS MEXICANOS A TEOTIHUACAN, HACE QUE ESTE ASUNTO SEA DE INTERES PARA TODO EL PUEBLO MEXICANO. 4.-) QUE SIENDO TEOTIHUACAN PATRIMONIO CULTURAL DE LA HUMANIDAD EL TEMA EXPUESTO ES DE INTERES INTERNACIONAL. 5.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL TEOTIHUACANA SE RESERVA EL DERECHO DE EJERCER CUALQUIER MEDIDA PARA HACERSE ESCUCHAR Y ATENDER DENTRO DE LOS MARGENES DE LA LEGALIDAD, Y DE ACUERDO CON LAS GARANTIAS QUE LE OTORGAN LAS CONSTITUCIONES POLITICAS DE LOS ESTADOS UNIDOS MEXICANOS Y LA DEL ESTADO LIBRE Y SOBERANO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO. 6.-) QUE AL MARGEN DE LAS RESPONSABILIDADES ADMINISTRATIVAS, CIVILES, PENALES Y/U OTRAS EN LAS QUE PUDIERAN INCURRIR LAS AUTORIDADES MUNICIPALES, ESTATALES Y FEDERALES Y QUE EN SU MOMENTO DENUNCIAREMOS POR LA VIA LEGAL, EMPLAZAMOS A LOS RESPONSABLES FRENTE AL JUICIO DE LA HISTORIA POR LAS AFECTACIONES QUE PRODUZCAN A NUSTRA FORMA DE VIDA Y TRADICIONES EXTRAÑAS A NUESTRA CULTURA MEXICANA Y TEOTIHUACANA. 7.-) LA DEFENSA DE NUESTRA AGUA, NUESTRA TIERRA Y DE NUESTRO ESPACIO, ANTE LA CONSTRUCCION Y OPERACIÓN PRESENTE O FUTURA DE FRACCIONAMEINTOS DE DESARROLLOS URBANOS Y COMERCIALES, SERA UNA CAUSA POPULAR, INDEPENDIENTE DE LA VOLUNTAD DE LOS GOBIERNOS QUE LOS AUTORICEN. 8.-) QUE DE NO DETENERSE LA CONSTRUCCION DEL CENTRO COMERCIAL, PROMOVEREMOS LA RENUNCIA DEL AYUNTAMIENTO MUNICIPAL DE TEOTIHUACAN. Comité de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX Sat Sep 4 23:12:19 2004 From: ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rita=20Monta=FFfffff1o?=) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 18:12:19 -0500 Subject: Defensa_de_Teotihuacn In-Reply-To: <002201c492a9$31c949a0$8fcc4a42@Main> Message-ID: Hola Te saludo y me uno a lista por la defensa de Teotihuacan. Por desgracia no estás dormida, el capitalismo, ahora en su etapa neoliberal sigue siendo destructor de todas y cualquier cultura cuya lógica no sea la acumulación de capital; los políticos mexicanos son incultos, vanidosos y tontos, o mesquinos, no se. No se les ocurre, por ejemplo, proponer la creación de un hotel tipo colonial en Acolman o fuera de San Juan Teotihuacan que pudiera atraer turismo o un corredor turistico que abarcara toda la zona y cuyos ingresos sirvieran para dar mantenimiento a las pirámides y otras construcciones. Es triste, muy triste, ojalá y logremos evitar esta agresión a una de las muestras más ricas de la cultura prehispánica. Ma. de los Ángeles Sanchez Noriega A. Maria wrote: st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Amigos: Les estoy transmitiendo la carta que me enviara Alessandra Luiselli, desde Texas. Es muy importante que nos solidaricemos por la defensa de Teotihuacan. No puede ser que les heredemos a nuestros hijos en lugar de una plaza señorial. Cargada de energía, una plaza Walmart, con su consabida carga globalizante de artículos a bajo precio, productos plásticos, ropa de acrílico y nylon, infinidad de productos de consumo necesario e innecesario. ¿Útil? Ya lo creo que sí. Pero no sobre la cultura ancestral y a un lado de ese portento que muchos visitamos para llenarnos de energía y recoger, en pedazos, nuestra identidad pisoteada. Luchemos y, por favor, pellízquenme para que yo compuebe que estoy dormida. No puede ser que a algún político se le haya ocurrido poner ese Walmart, justamente ahí. ¡Recuerden, luchar ni cuesta ni empobrece, ni protestar envejece! Mándenos su aprobación de inmediato, para incluir su nombre en el desplegado que aparecerá en un diario de alta circulación. Solo tienen que hacer reply, sí, incúyanme en la línea de tema del mensaje o dirigirse a: Alessandra Luiselli: viajeraquevas at yahoo.com.mx Los abrazo. María Dolores Bolívar En defensa del Valle de Teotihuacan Fecha: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:37:11 -0500 Comité de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan El sitio arqueológico de Teotihuacan, considerado por las naciones unidas como un patrimonio de la humanidad, y uno de los tesoros espirituales y culturales de México, esta siendo acosado por fuerzas globalizadoras. En forma sorpresiva, se ha iniciado la construcción de un centro comercial de Wal Mart en las inmediaciones de las pirámides. Mediante una campaña de propaganda en bardas y en desplegados en contra del Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia, los promotores de este proyecto y sus cómplices políticos en la región, lograron aparentar que la opinión publica local esta de acuerdo con que la zona Arqueológica se vuelva un botín comercial de quien este dispuesto a pagar por medrar con el patrimonio cultural de Teotihuacan, y así el INAH ha liberado el predio respecto a las restricciones señaladas por la Ley Federal de Monumentos y zonas arqueológicas, artísticos y culturales en vigor; las autoridades estatales por su parte, otorgaron el permiso de uso de suelo, y las municipales la licencia de construcción, para un establecimiento que a todas luces afecta múltiples aspectos de la vida de la región del valle de Teotihuacan. El casco urbano de San Juan, la cabecera municipal de donde se lleva el proyecto, tiene como único acceso desde la autopista México- Pirámides, la Av. Hidalgo donde actualmente el tráfico es ya muy conflictivo, siendo la arteria principal de la población por lo que la presencia de un centro comercial, a escasos metros de esa Av., vendrá a desquiciar la vialidad en todo el pueblo, desde los tréboles de la autopista hasta el centro. Las obras se están llevando a cabo en las inmediaciones de un monumento histórico y artístico, el puente del emperador, al que afectará visualmente por estar colindante con el centro comercial en construcción, afectación que incluye las pirámides, localizadas a menos de medio kilometro de la pretendida bodega Aurrera. La construcción se esta realizando en terrenos de alta productividad agrícola, en una región donde la población mayoritariamente se dedica a la agricultura, y en forma muy importante al comercio, por lo que se considera que la presencia de un establecimiento comercial de gran superficie como el que se pretende producirá un impacto económico nefasto para la mayoría de los comercios de la región, y que implicara la deformación de los usos y costumbres tradicionales de producción y consumo en toda el área de influencia del valle de Teotihuacan, donde sus habitantes están ligados por lazos culturales e históricos a sus monumentos prehispánicos. Todas las afectaciones referidas para nada a sido puesta en consideración de la población, y, en franco desafío al principio de municipio libre, el gobierno del Estado de México, pasando por alto originalmente al ayuntamiento otorgo la licencia de uso de suelo y el ayuntamiento, - por encima de la comunidad- la licencia de construcción; además de que las autoridades del INAH y las de transito federal y estatal no ha hecho valer las leyes de las que son custodios. La población del valle de Teotihuacan ha decidido enfrentar este intento de globalizar este reducto de la historia de México, patrimonio cultural de México y de la humanidad; y apelando a las garantías que le otorgan las Constituciones de la República y la del Estado de México y las Leyes que de ella se desprenden, harán valer ante las autoridades de los tres niveles de gobierno, de los tres poderes de la unión la defensa de sus derechos, denunciando la trama de componendas e intereses que han permitido el inicio de las obras de la bodega Aurrera-WalMart en Teotihuacan. Comité de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. Teotihuacan de Arista, 15 de agosto de 2004. Mayor información Circuito Pirámides s/n Detrás de la Pirámide de la luna, con Emma Ortega Moreno tel.01(594) 95 8 23 06 > MANIFIESTO DEL VALLE DE TEOTIHUACAN Mas de 2000 años de tradición no pueden desaparecer para dar paso al proyecto de globalización en contra de un pueblo que a cada día ve debilitar su economía, mientras que los grandes capitales transnacionales amasan cuantiosas fortunas que convierten en dólares que terminan fuera del país, un país que ha pesar de contar con enormes riquezas y recursos naturales esta convirtiéndose en esclavo de su propia tierra. En este momento amargo de disolución del concepto de nación en aras de los intereses globalizadores, toca a los mexicanos de hoy defender la tierra que nos vio nacer, y a nosotros los Teotihuacanos, en particular, hacerlo con esta privilegiada porción de nuestro país donde esta plasmado en pirámides y monumentos del pasado de México. El pasado de Teotihuacan, que llega hasta nuestro presente en forma de pirámides, orgullo de México y declarado patrimonio de la humanidad, esta amenazado ahora por proyectos de las fuerzas globalizadoras que empiezan a añorar con la construcción de un centro comercial de una firma transnacional que sin duda servirá de punta de lanza para que mas adelante nuestra tierra se fraccione para la construcción de unidades habitacionales que harán que se escaseen y se encarezcan nuestra agua y los servicios públicos de que nos hemos dotado los teotihuacanos poniendo en peligro la subsistencia de las futuras generaciones. Estamos constatando dolorosamente como las autoridades del INAH, imponen a los pobladores del valle onerosas restricción y ampliación de sus viviendas pretextando la protección del patrimonio arqueológico de la zona, aunque todas las restricciones no se apliquen a los grandes intereses, como en el caso de la construcción de la bodega Aurrera por parte de la transnacional Wal Mart en un acuerdo evidente con las autoridades del INAH, del gobierno del Estado de México y del ayuntamiento, que de pronto otorga licencias y permisos para la construcción del centro comercial ya mencionado, hemos constatado como esos intereses transnacionales con sus políticas comerciales mañosas se infiltran en el consumidor mediante precios bajos para acabar con la competencia, para que una vez eliminada establezcan condiciones monopólicas en detrimento del poder adquisitivo de la población. Pero si el daño que representa la desaparición de muchos cientos de pequeños y medianos negocios es una amenaza para la economía regional, el mayor daño es el que el dinero que los consumidores gastan en el comercio tradicional vuelve a la economía de la región, y se recicla derramando beneficios para toda la población mediante la creación de nuevos empleos y de una mayor demanda, pero el dinero gastado en las cadenas transnacionales salen definitivamente del país, dejando un precario remanente para empleados locales, pues los responsables y administradores son regularmente fuereños. Puesto que la operación de un centro comercial transnacional en Teotihuacan afecta a todos los comercios de la región, que vive precisamente de la actividad comercial, consideramos indispensable defender a toda costa nuestra fuente de trabajo y las formas tradicionales de consumo de nuestras comunidades. Las disposiciones reglamentarias del uso de suelo en el valle de Teotihuacan han impedido hasta ahora el desarrollo de otras industrias que no sean la turística en toda la región por lo tanto no hay suficiente generación de empleo que no sea en la agricultura y en el autoempleo que propicia el pequeño comercio; así la desaparición de dos millares de comercios medianos y pequeños, que traería una tienda de autoservicio como la que pretende instalarse en Teotihuacan dejaría a todo el valle de Teotihuacan económicamente inerme, y con desempleo inmanejable que sin duda generaría desorden social y delincuencia. El temor y la apatía que en otro tiempo cavaron la tumba de nuestros proyectos ante la coacción de la autoridades despóticas son cosas del pasado. Hoy la solidaridad en la defensa de lo que es nuestro, nos lleva a luchas hasta la victoria. No nos vamos a quedar con los brazos cruzados viendo a nuestro Teotihuacan irse de nuestras manos, llevándose el futuro de nuestros hijos, que tienen que migrar a tierras extrañas buscando mejores oportunidades, abandonando todo, dejando a sus familias y hasta arriesgando la vida para obtener el sustento para su familia. Esta seria la ultima opción para muchos teotihuacanos que la desaparecer el pequeño comercio ante el embate de las cadena comerciales se verían obligados a emigrar. CONSIDERANDO QUE: 1.-) el INAH, cediendo a las presiones de la empresa Wal Mart testaferro Roberto Ruiz presidente del Consejo Coordinador de Teotihuacan, permitio el inicio de las obras sin un rescate arqueológico apegado a las normas de ley (art. 44 del reglamento de la ley federal sobre monumentos y zonas arqueológicas, artísticos e históricos) en un lugar en el que se han realizado hallazgos arqueológicos durante las excavaciones para la cimentación del centro comercial. Y a pesar de la afectación que harán los edificios en construcción de la perspectiva del monumento histórico y artístico del siglo XIX denominado " puente del emperador". 2.-) el gobierno del estado de México, por medio de la Secretaria de desarrollo urbano y obra publica ha concedido la licencia de uso de suelo, a pesar de que el plan de desarrollo municipal de Teotihuacan en vigor desde noviembre de 2003 prohibe expresamente la construcción de centros comerciales y tiendas departamentales en el espacio clasificado como H833A donde se ha iniciado las obras de Bodega Aurrera, terreno que estaba destinado a la producción agrícola. 3.-) Las autoridades de tránsito estatal y federal no han tomado en cuenta el impacto vial que representa el trafico en los alrededores del centro comercial, situado a unos metros de la principal y arteria vial de San Juan Teotihuacan. 4.-) El presidente municipal de Teotihuacan, Guillermo Rodríguez Céspedes deforma económica, sin mediar petición escrita de Wal Mart en un cabildazo hizo aprobar la expedición de la licencia de construcción sin mediar ni una consulta a la población, ni los estudios de impacto del proyecto comercial de esta transnacional, ni la opinión técnica en materia vial, ecológica y sanitaria sobre la construcción, y operación del centro comercial en cuestión. 5.-) Que la sociedad civil por medio de la organización de las Naciones Indígenas Unidas A.C. ya se había pronunciado por escrito ante el presidente municipal de teotihuacan, desde el mes de marzo del corriente en contra de la construcción de establecimientos comerciales transnacionales de Teotihuacan. MANIFESTAMOS: 1.-) QUE SON A TODAS LUCES ILEGALES LOS PERMISOS Y AUTORIZACIONES OTORGADOS POR EL INAH, EL GOBIERNO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO Y EL AYUNTAMIENTO DE TEOTIHUACAN, RESPECTO A LA CONSTRUCCIÓN, OPERACIÓN Y USO DE SUELO DE "BODEGA AURRERA" CON DOMICILIO EN CRUZ DE LA MISION NUMERO 8 FRACCIONAMIENTO LA PARROQUIA DE SAN JUAN TEOTIHUACAN MEXICO. 2.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL ORGANIZADA DE TEOTIHUACAN TOMA EN SUS MANOS LA DEFENSA JURIDICA DE SUS LEGITIMOS INTERESES, EN FRANCA CONTRA LA CORRUPCION DE SUS AUTORIDADES. 3.-) QUE LA CONDICION DE CENTRO ESPIRITUAL Y CULTURAL DE MEXICO QUE ATRIBUIMOS LOS MEXICANOS A TEOTIHUACAN, HACE QUE ESTE ASUNTO SEA DE INTERES PARA TODO EL PUEBLO MEXICANO. 4.-) QUE SIENDO TEOTIHUACAN PATRIMONIO CULTURAL DE LA HUMANIDAD EL TEMA EXPUESTO ES DE INTERES INTERNACIONAL. 5.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL TEOTIHUACANA SE RESERVA EL DERECHO DE EJERCER CUALQUIER MEDIDA PARA HACERSE ESCUCHAR Y ATENDER DENTRO DE LOS MARGENES DE LA LEGALIDAD, Y DE ACUERDO CON LAS GARANTIAS QUE LE OTORGAN LAS CONSTITUCIONES POLITICAS DE LOS ESTADOS UNIDOS MEXICANOS Y LA DEL ESTADO LIBRE Y SOBERANO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO. 6.-) QUE AL MARGEN DE LAS RESPONSABILIDADES ADMINISTRATIVAS, CIVILES, PENALES Y/U OTRAS EN LAS QUE PUDIERAN INCURRIR LAS AUTORIDADES MUNICIPALES, ESTATALES Y FEDERALES Y QUE EN SU MOMENTO DENUNCIAREMOS POR LA VIA LEGAL, EMPLAZAMOS A LOS RESPONSABLES FRENTE AL JUICIO DE LA HISTORIA POR LAS AFECTACIONES QUE PRODUZCAN A NUSTRA FORMA DE VIDA Y TRADICIONES EXTRAÑAS A NUESTRA CULTURA MEXICANA Y TEOTIHUACANA. 7.-) LA DEFENSA DE NUESTRA AGUA, NUESTRA TIERRA Y DE NUESTRO ESPACIO, ANTE LA CONSTRUCCION Y OPERACIÓN PRESENTE O FUTURA DE FRACCIONAMEINTOS DE DESARROLLOS URBANOS Y COMERCIALES, SERA UNA CAUSA POPULAR, INDEPENDIENTE DE LA VOLUNTAD DE LOS GOBIERNOS QUE LOS AUTORICEN. 8.-) QUE DE NO DETENERSE LA CONSTRUCCION DEL CENTRO COMERCIAL, PROMOVEREMOS LA RENUNCIA DEL AYUNTAMIENTO MUNICIPAL DE TEOTIHUACAN. Comité de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Net: La mejor conexión a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smarcos at INFOSEL.NET.MX Sat Sep 4 20:57:44 2004 From: smarcos at INFOSEL.NET.MX (Sylvia Mrcos Tueme) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 14:57:44 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Defensa_de_Teotihuac=E1n?= Message-ID: Si, gracias por proponerlo! Sylvia Marcos ----- Original Message ----- From: Maria To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 12:01 PM Subject: Defensa de Teotihuacán Amigos: Les estoy transmitiendo la carta que me enviara Alessandra Luiselli, desde Texas. Es muy importante que nos solidaricemos por la defensa de Teotihuacan. No puede ser que les heredemos a nuestros hijos en lugar de una plaza señorial. Cargada de energía, una plaza Walmart, con su consabida carga globalizante de artículos a bajo precio, productos plásticos, ropa de acrílico y nylon, infinidad de productos de consumo necesario e innecesario. ¿Útil? Ya lo creo que sí. Pero no sobre la cultura ancestral y a un lado de ese portento que muchos visitamos para llenarnos de energía y recoger, en pedazos, nuestra identidad pisoteada. Luchemos y, por favor, pellízquenme para que yo compuebe que estoy dormida. No puede ser que a algún político se le haya ocurrido poner ese Walmart, justamente ahí. ¡Recuerden, luchar ni cuesta ni empobrece, ni protestar envejece! Mándenos su aprobación de inmediato, para incluir su nombre en el desplegado que aparecerá en un diario de alta circulación. Solo tienen que hacer reply, sí, incúyanme en la línea de tema del mensaje o dirigirse a: Alessandra Luiselli: viajeraquevas at yahoo.com.mx Los abrazo. María Dolores Bolívar En defensa del Valle de Teotihuacan Fecha: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:37:11 -0500 Comité de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan El sitio arqueológico de Teotihuacan, considerado por las naciones unidas como un patrimonio de la humanidad, y uno de los tesoros espirituales y culturales de México, esta siendo acosado por fuerzas globalizadoras. En forma sorpresiva, se ha iniciado la construcción de un centro comercial de Wal Mart en las inmediaciones de las pirámides. Mediante una campaña de propaganda en bardas y en desplegados en contra del Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia, los promotores de este proyecto y sus cómplices políticos en la región, lograron aparentar que la opinión publica local esta de acuerdo con que la zona Arqueológica se vuelva un botín comercial de quien este dispuesto a pagar por medrar con el patrimonio cultural de Teotihuacan, y así el INAH ha liberado el predio respecto a las restricciones señaladas por la Ley Federal de Monumentos y zonas arqueológicas, artísticos y culturales en vigor; las autoridades estatales por su parte, otorgaron el permiso de uso de suelo, y las municipales la licencia de construcción, para un establecimiento que a todas luces afecta múltiples aspectos de la vida de la región del valle de Teotihuacan. El casco urbano de San Juan, la cabecera municipal de donde se lleva el proyecto, tiene como único acceso desde la autopista México- Pirámides, la Av. Hidalgo donde actualmente el tráfico es ya muy conflictivo, siendo la arteria principal de la población por lo que la presencia de un centro comercial, a escasos metros de esa Av., vendrá a desquiciar la vialidad en todo el pueblo, desde los tréboles de la autopista hasta el centro. Las obras se están llevando a cabo en las inmediaciones de un monumento histórico y artístico, el puente del emperador, al que afectará visualmente por estar colindante con el centro comercial en construcción, afectación que incluye las pirámides, localizadas a menos de medio kilometro de la pretendida bodega Aurrera. La construcción se esta realizando en terrenos de alta productividad agrícola, en una región donde la población mayoritariamente se dedica a la agricultura, y en forma muy importante al comercio, por lo que se considera que la presencia de un establecimiento comercial de gran superficie como el que se pretende producirá un impacto económico nefasto para la mayoría de los comercios de la región, y que implicara la deformación de los usos y costumbres tradicionales de producción y consumo en toda el área de influencia del valle de Teotihuacan, donde sus habitantes están ligados por lazos culturales e históricos a sus monumentos prehispánicos. Todas las afectaciones referidas para nada a sido puesta en consideración de la población, y, en franco desafío al principio de municipio libre, el gobierno del Estado de México, pasando por alto originalmente al ayuntamiento otorgo la licencia de uso de suelo y el ayuntamiento, - por encima de la comunidad- la licencia de construcción; además de que las autoridades del INAH y las de transito federal y estatal no ha hecho valer las leyes de las que son custodios. La población del valle de Teotihuacan ha decidido enfrentar este intento de globalizar este reducto de la historia de México, patrimonio cultural de México y de la humanidad; y apelando a las garantías que le otorgan las Constituciones de la República y la del Estado de México y las Leyes que de ella se desprenden, harán valer ante las autoridades de los tres niveles de gobierno, de los tres poderes de la unión la defensa de sus derechos, denunciando la trama de componendas e intereses que han permitido el inicio de las obras de la bodega Aurrera-WalMart en Teotihuacan. Comité de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. Teotihuacan de Arista, 15 de agosto de 2004. Mayor información Circuito Pirámides s/n Detrás de la Pirámide de la luna, con Emma Ortega Moreno tel.01(594) 95 8 23 06 > MANIFIESTO DEL VALLE DE TEOTIHUACAN Mas de 2000 años de tradición no pueden desaparecer para dar paso al proyecto de globalización en contra de un pueblo que a cada día ve debilitar su economía, mientras que los grandes capitales transnacionales amasan cuantiosas fortunas que convierten en dólares que terminan fuera del país, un país que ha pesar de contar con enormes riquezas y recursos naturales esta convirtiéndose en esclavo de su propia tierra. En este momento amargo de disolución del concepto de nación en aras de los intereses globalizadores, toca a los mexicanos de hoy defender la tierra que nos vio nacer, y a nosotros los Teotihuacanos, en particular, hacerlo con esta privilegiada porción de nuestro país donde esta plasmado en pirámides y monumentos del pasado de México. El pasado de Teotihuacan, que llega hasta nuestro presente en forma de pirámides, orgullo de México y declarado patrimonio de la humanidad, esta amenazado ahora por proyectos de las fuerzas globalizadoras que empiezan a añorar con la construcción de un centro comercial de una firma transnacional que sin duda servirá de punta de lanza para que mas adelante nuestra tierra se fraccione para la construcción de unidades habitacionales que harán que se escaseen y se encarezcan nuestra agua y los servicios públicos de que nos hemos dotado los teotihuacanos poniendo en peligro la subsistencia de las futuras generaciones. Estamos constatando dolorosamente como las autoridades del INAH, imponen a los pobladores del valle onerosas restricción y ampliación de sus viviendas pretextando la protección del patrimonio arqueológico de la zona, aunque todas las restricciones no se apliquen a los grandes intereses, como en el caso de la construcción de la bodega Aurrera por parte de la transnacional Wal Mart en un acuerdo evidente con las autoridades del INAH, del gobierno del Estado de México y del ayuntamiento, que de pronto otorga licencias y permisos para la construcción del centro comercial ya mencionado, hemos constatado como esos intereses transnacionales con sus políticas comerciales mañosas se infiltran en el consumidor mediante precios bajos para acabar con la competencia, para que una vez eliminada establezcan condiciones monopólicas en detrimento del poder adquisitivo de la población. Pero si el daño que representa la desaparición de muchos cientos de pequeños y medianos negocios es una amenaza para la economía regional, el mayor daño es el que el dinero que los consumidores gastan en el comercio tradicional vuelve a la economía de la región, y se recicla derramando beneficios para toda la población mediante la creación de nuevos empleos y de una mayor demanda, pero el dinero gastado en las cadenas transnacionales salen definitivamente del país, dejando un precario remanente para empleados locales, pues los responsables y administradores son regularmente fuereños. Puesto que la operación de un centro comercial transnacional en Teotihuacan afecta a todos los comercios de la región, que vive precisamente de la actividad comercial, consideramos indispensable defender a toda costa nuestra fuente de trabajo y las formas tradicionales de consumo de nuestras comunidades. Las disposiciones reglamentarias del uso de suelo en el valle de Teotihuacan han impedido hasta ahora el desarrollo de otras industrias que no sean la turística en toda la región por lo tanto no hay suficiente generación de empleo que no sea en la agricultura y en el autoempleo que propicia el pequeño comercio; así la desaparición de dos millares de comercios medianos y pequeños, que traería una tienda de autoservicio como la que pretende instalarse en Teotihuacan dejaría a todo el valle de Teotihuacan económicamente inerme, y con desempleo inmanejable que sin duda generaría desorden social y delincuencia. El temor y la apatía que en otro tiempo cavaron la tumba de nuestros proyectos ante la coacción de la autoridades despóticas son cosas del pasado. Hoy la solidaridad en la defensa de lo que es nuestro, nos lleva a luchas hasta la victoria. No nos vamos a quedar con los brazos cruzados viendo a nuestro Teotihuacan irse de nuestras manos, llevándose el futuro de nuestros hijos, que tienen que migrar a tierras extrañas buscando mejores oportunidades, abandonando todo, dejando a sus familias y hasta arriesgando la vida para obtener el sustento para su familia. Esta seria la ultima opción para muchos teotihuacanos que la desaparecer el pequeño comercio ante el embate de las cadena comerciales se verían obligados a emigrar. CONSIDERANDO QUE: 1.-) el INAH, cediendo a las presiones de la empresa Wal Mart testaferro Roberto Ruiz presidente del Consejo Coordinador de Teotihuacan, permitio el inicio de las obras sin un rescate arqueológico apegado a las normas de ley (art. 44 del reglamento de la ley federal sobre monumentos y zonas arqueológicas, artísticos e históricos) en un lugar en el que se han realizado hallazgos arqueológicos durante las excavaciones para la cimentación del centro comercial. Y a pesar de la afectación que harán los edificios en construcción de la perspectiva del monumento histórico y artístico del siglo XIX denominado " puente del emperador". 2.-) el gobierno del estado de México, por medio de la Secretaria de desarrollo urbano y obra publica ha concedido la licencia de uso de suelo, a pesar de que el plan de desarrollo municipal de Teotihuacan en vigor desde noviembre de 2003 prohibe expresamente la construcción de centros comerciales y tiendas departamentales en el espacio clasificado como H833A donde se ha iniciado las obras de Bodega Aurrera, terreno que estaba destinado a la producción agrícola. 3.-) Las autoridades de tránsito estatal y federal no han tomado en cuenta el impacto vial que representa el trafico en los alrededores del centro comercial, situado a unos metros de la principal y arteria vial de San Juan Teotihuacan. 4.-) El presidente municipal de Teotihuacan, Guillermo Rodríguez Céspedes deforma económica, sin mediar petición escrita de Wal Mart en un cabildazo hizo aprobar la expedición de la licencia de construcción sin mediar ni una consulta a la población, ni los estudios de impacto del proyecto comercial de esta transnacional, ni la opinión técnica en materia vial, ecológica y sanitaria sobre la construcción, y operación del centro comercial en cuestión. 5.-) Que la sociedad civil por medio de la organización de las Naciones Indígenas Unidas A.C. ya se había pronunciado por escrito ante el presidente municipal de teotihuacan, desde el mes de marzo del corriente en contra de la construcción de establecimientos comerciales transnacionales de Teotihuacan. MANIFESTAMOS: 1.-) QUE SON A TODAS LUCES ILEGALES LOS PERMISOS Y AUTORIZACIONES OTORGADOS POR EL INAH, EL GOBIERNO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO Y EL AYUNTAMIENTO DE TEOTIHUACAN, RESPECTO A LA CONSTRUCCIÓN, OPERACIÓN Y USO DE SUELO DE "BODEGA AURRERA" CON DOMICILIO EN CRUZ DE LA MISION NUMERO 8 FRACCIONAMIENTO LA PARROQUIA DE SAN JUAN TEOTIHUACAN MEXICO. 2.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL ORGANIZADA DE TEOTIHUACAN TOMA EN SUS MANOS LA DEFENSA JURIDICA DE SUS LEGITIMOS INTERESES, EN FRANCA CONTRA LA CORRUPCION DE SUS AUTORIDADES. 3.-) QUE LA CONDICION DE CENTRO ESPIRITUAL Y CULTURAL DE MEXICO QUE ATRIBUIMOS LOS MEXICANOS A TEOTIHUACAN, HACE QUE ESTE ASUNTO SEA DE INTERES PARA TODO EL PUEBLO MEXICANO. 4.-) QUE SIENDO TEOTIHUACAN PATRIMONIO CULTURAL DE LA HUMANIDAD EL TEMA EXPUESTO ES DE INTERES INTERNACIONAL. 5.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL TEOTIHUACANA SE RESERVA EL DERECHO DE EJERCER CUALQUIER MEDIDA PARA HACERSE ESCUCHAR Y ATENDER DENTRO DE LOS MARGENES DE LA LEGALIDAD, Y DE ACUERDO CON LAS GARANTIAS QUE LE OTORGAN LAS CONSTITUCIONES POLITICAS DE LOS ESTADOS UNIDOS MEXICANOS Y LA DEL ESTADO LIBRE Y SOBERANO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO. 6.-) QUE AL MARGEN DE LAS RESPONSABILIDADES ADMINISTRATIVAS, CIVILES, PENALES Y/U OTRAS EN LAS QUE PUDIERAN INCURRIR LAS AUTORIDADES MUNICIPALES, ESTATALES Y FEDERALES Y QUE EN SU MOMENTO DENUNCIAREMOS POR LA VIA LEGAL, EMPLAZAMOS A LOS RESPONSABLES FRENTE AL JUICIO DE LA HISTORIA POR LAS AFECTACIONES QUE PRODUZCAN A NUSTRA FORMA DE VIDA Y TRADICIONES EXTRAÑAS A NUESTRA CULTURA MEXICANA Y TEOTIHUACANA. 7.-) LA DEFENSA DE NUESTRA AGUA, NUESTRA TIERRA Y DE NUESTRO ESPACIO, ANTE LA CONSTRUCCION Y OPERACIÓN PRESENTE O FUTURA DE FRACCIONAMEINTOS DE DESARROLLOS URBANOS Y COMERCIALES, SERA UNA CAUSA POPULAR, INDEPENDIENTE DE LA VOLUNTAD DE LOS GOBIERNOS QUE LOS AUTORICEN. 8.-) QUE DE NO DETENERSE LA CONSTRUCCION DEL CENTRO COMERCIAL, PROMOVEREMOS LA RENUNCIA DEL AYUNTAMIENTO MUNICIPAL DE TEOTIHUACAN. Comité de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trottolo2001 at INWIND.IT Mon Sep 6 07:08:41 2004 From: trottolo2001 at INWIND.IT (trottolo2001@inwind.it) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 09:08:41 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?b?UmU6IERlZmVuc2FfZGVfVGVvdGlodWFj4W4A?= Message-ID: Sí, incúyanme en la línea de tema del mensaje > > > Hola > > Te saludo y me uno a lista por la defensa de Teotihuacan. Por desgracia no estás dormida, el capitalismo, ahora en su etapa neoliberal sigue siendo destructor de todas y cualquier cultura cuya lógica no sea la acumulación de capital; los políticos mexicanos son incultos, vanidosos y tontos, o mesquinos, no se. No se les ocurre, por ejemplo, proponer la creación de un hotel tipo colonial en Acolman o fuera de San Juan Teotihuacan que pudiera atraer turismo o un corredor turistico que abarcara toda la zona y cuyos ingresos sirvieran para dar mantenimiento a las pirámides y otras construcciones. Es triste, muy triste, ojalá y logremos evitar esta agresión a una de las muestras más ricas de la cultura prehispánica. > > Ma. de los Ángeles Sanchez Noriega A. > > > > Maria wrote: > st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } > Amigos: > > Les estoy transmitiendo la carta que me enviara Alessandra Luiselli, desde Texas. Es muy importante que nos solidaricemos por la defensa de Teotihuacan. No puede ser que les heredemos a nuestros hijos en lugar de una plaza señorial. Cargada de energía, una plaza Walmart, con su consabida carga globalizante de artículos a bajo precio, productos plásticos, ropa de acrílico y nylon, infinidad de productos de consumo necesario e innecesario. ¿Útil? Ya lo creo que sí. Pero no sobre la cultura ancestral y a un lado de ese portento que muchos visitamos para llenarnos de energía y recoger, en pedazos, nuestra identidad pisoteada. Luchemos y, por favor, pellízquenme para que yo compuebe que estoy dormida. No puede ser que a algún político se le haya ocurrido poner ese Walmart, justamente ahí. ¡Recuerden, luchar ni cuesta ni empobrece, ni protestar envejece! Mándenos su aprobación de inmediato, para incluir su nombre en el desplegado que aparecerá en un diario de alta circulación. Solo tienen > que hacer reply, sí, incúyanme en la línea de tema del mensaje o dirigirse a: > > > > Alessandra Luiselli: viajeraquevas at yahoo.com.mx > > > > Los abrazo. > > María Dolores Bolívar > > > > > > En defensa del Valle de Teotihuacan > > > > Fecha: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:37:11 -0500 > > > > Comité de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan > > > > El sitio arqueológico de Teotihuacan, considerado > > por las naciones unidas como un patrimonio de la > > humanidad, y uno de los tesoros espirituales y > > culturales de México, esta siendo acosado por > > fuerzas globalizadoras. En forma sorpresiva, se > > ha iniciado la construcción de un centro > > comercial de Wal Mart en las inmediaciones de las > > pirámides. > > > > Mediante una campaña de propaganda en bardas y en > > desplegados en contra del Instituto Nacional de > > Antropología e Historia, los promotores de este > > proyecto y sus cómplices políticos en la región, > > lograron aparentar que la opinión publica local > > esta de acuerdo con que la zona Arqueológica se > > vuelva un botín comercial de quien este dispuesto > > a pagar por medrar con el patrimonio cultural de > > Teotihuacan, y así el INAH ha liberado el predio > > respecto a las restricciones señaladas por la Ley > > Federal de Monumentos y zonas arqueológicas, > > artísticos y culturales en vigor; las autoridades > > estatales por su parte, otorgaron el permiso de > > uso de suelo, y > > las municipales la licencia de construcción, para > > un establecimiento que a todas luces afecta > > múltiples aspectos de la vida de la región del > > valle de Teotihuacan. > > > > El casco urbano de San Juan, la cabecera > > municipal de donde se lleva el proyecto, tiene > > como único acceso desde la autopista México- > > Pirámides, la Av. Hidalgo donde actualmente el > > tráfico es ya muy conflictivo, siendo la arteria > > principal de la población por lo que la presencia > > de un centro comercial, a escasos metros de esa > > Av., vendrá a desquiciar la vialidad en todo el > > pueblo, desde los > > tréboles de la autopista hasta el centro. > > > > Las obras se están llevando a cabo en las > > inmediaciones de un monumento histórico y > > artístico, el puente del emperador, al que > > afectará visualmente por estar colindante con el > > centro comercial en construcción, afectación que > > incluye las pirámides, localizadas a menos de > > medio kilometro de la pretendida bodega Aurrera. > > > > La construcción se esta realizando en terrenos de > > alta productividad agrícola, en una región donde > > la población mayoritariamente se dedica a la > > agricultura, y en forma muy importante al > > comercio, por lo que se considera que la > > presencia de un establecimiento comercial de gran > > superficie como el que se pretende producirá un > > impacto económico nefasto para la mayoría de los > > comercios de la región, y que implicara la > > deformación de los usos y > > costumbres tradicionales de producción y consumo > > en toda el área de influencia del valle de > > Teotihuacan, donde sus habitantes están ligados > > por lazos culturales e históricos a sus > > monumentos prehispánicos. > > > > Todas las afectaciones referidas para nada a sido > > puesta en consideración de la población, y, en > > franco desafío al principio de municipio libre, > > el gobierno del Estado de México, pasando por > > alto originalmente al ayuntamiento otorgo la > > licencia de uso de suelo y el ayuntamiento, - por > > encima de la comunidad- la licencia de > > construcción; además de que las autoridades del > > INAH y las de transito federal y estatal no ha > > hecho valer las leyes de las que son custodios. > > > > La población del valle de Teotihuacan ha decidido > > enfrentar este intento de globalizar este reducto > > de la historia de México, patrimonio cultural de > > México y de la humanidad; y apelando a las > > garantías que le otorgan las Constituciones de la > > República y la del > > Estado de México y las Leyes que de ella se > > desprenden, harán valer ante las autoridades de > > los tres niveles de gobierno, de los tres poderes > > de la unión la defensa de sus derechos, > > denunciando la trama de componendas e intereses > > que han permitido el inicio de las obras de la > > bodega Aurrera-WalMart en Teotihuacan. > > > > Comité de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. > > Teotihuacan de Arista, 15 de agosto de 2004. > > Mayor información Circuito Pirámides s/n Detrás > > de la Pirámide de la luna, con Emma Ortega Moreno > > > > tel.01(594) 95 8 23 06 > > > > > MANIFIESTO DEL VALLE DE TEOTIHUACAN > > > > Mas de 2000 años de tradición no pueden > > desaparecer para dar paso al proyecto de > > globalización en contra de un pueblo que a cada > > día ve debilitar su economía, mientras que los > > grandes capitales transnacionales amasan > > cuantiosas fortunas que convierten en dólares que > > terminan fuera del país, un país que ha pesar de > > contar con enormes riquezas > > y recursos naturales esta convirtiéndose en > > esclavo de su propia tierra. > > > > En este momento amargo de disolución del concepto > > de nación en aras de los intereses > > globalizadores, toca a los mexicanos de hoy > > defender la tierra que nos vio nacer, y a > > nosotros los Teotihuacanos, en particular, > > hacerlo con esta privilegiada porción de > > nuestro país donde esta plasmado en pirámides y > > monumentos del pasado de México. > > > > El pasado de Teotihuacan, que llega hasta nuestro > > presente en forma de pirámides, orgullo de México > > y declarado patrimonio de la humanidad, esta > > amenazado ahora por proyectos de las fuerzas > > globalizadoras que empiezan a añorar con la > > construcción de un centro comercial de una firma > > transnacional que sin duda servirá de punta de > > lanza para que mas adelante nuestra tierra se > > fraccione para la construcción de > > unidades habitacionales que harán que se escaseen > > y se encarezcan nuestra agua y los servicios > > públicos de que nos hemos dotado los > > teotihuacanos poniendo en peligro la subsistencia > > de las futuras generaciones. > > > > Estamos constatando dolorosamente como las > > autoridades del INAH, imponen a los pobladores > > del valle onerosas restricción y ampliación de > > sus viviendas pretextando la protección del > > patrimonio arqueológico de la zona, aunque todas > > las restricciones no se apliquen a los grandes > > intereses, como en el caso de la construcción de > > la bodega Aurrera por parte de la transnacional > > Wal Mart en un acuerdo evidente con las > > autoridades del INAH, del gobierno del Estado de > > México y del ayuntamiento, que de pronto otorga > > licencias y permisos para la construcción del > > centro comercial ya mencionado, hemos constatado > > como esos intereses transnacionales con sus > > políticas comerciales mañosas se infiltran en el > > consumidor mediante precios bajos para acabar con > > la competencia, para que una vez eliminada > > establezcan condiciones monopólicas en detrimento > > del poder adquisitivo de la población. > > > > Pero si el daño que representa la desaparición de > > muchos cientos de pequeños y medianos negocios es > > una amenaza para la economía regional, el mayor > > daño es el que el dinero que los consumidores > > gastan en el comercio tradicional vuelve a la > > economía de la región, y se recicla derramando > > beneficios para toda la población mediante la > > creación de nuevos empleos y de una mayor > > demanda, pero el dinero gastado en las cadenas > > transnacionales salen definitivamente del país, > > dejando un precario remanente para empleados > > locales, pues los responsables y administradores > > son regularmente fuereños. > > > > Puesto que la operación de un centro comercial > > transnacional en Teotihuacan afecta a todos los > > comercios de la región, que vive precisamente de > > la actividad comercial, consideramos > > indispensable defender a toda costa nuestra > > fuente de trabajo y las formas tradicionales de > > consumo de nuestras comunidades. > > > > Las disposiciones reglamentarias del uso de suelo > > en el valle de Teotihuacan han impedido hasta > > ahora el desarrollo de otras industrias que no > > sean la turística en toda la región por lo tanto > > no hay suficiente generación de empleo que no sea > > en la agricultura y en el autoempleo que propicia > > el pequeño comercio; así la desaparición de dos > > millares de comercios medianos y pequeños, que > > traería una tienda de autoservicio como la que > > pretende instalarse en Teotihuacan dejaría a todo > > el valle de Teotihuacan económicamente inerme, y > > con desempleo inmanejable que sin duda generaría > > desorden social y delincuencia. > > > > El temor y la apatía que en otro tiempo cavaron > > la tumba de nuestros proyectos ante la coacción > > de la autoridades despóticas son cosas del > > pasado. Hoy la solidaridad en la defensa de lo > > que es nuestro, nos lleva a luchas hasta la > > victoria. No nos vamos a quedar con los brazos > > cruzados viendo a nuestro Teotihuacan irse de > > nuestras manos, llevándose el futuro de nuestros > > hijos, que tienen que migrar a tierras extrañas > > buscando mejores oportunidades, abandonando todo, > > dejando a sus familias y hasta arriesgando la > > vida para obtener el sustento para su > > familia. Esta seria la ultima opción para muchos > > teotihuacanos que la desaparecer el pequeño > > comercio ante el embate de las cadena comerciales > > se verían obligados a emigrar. > > > > CONSIDERANDO QUE: > > > > 1.-) el INAH, cediendo a las presiones de la > > empresa Wal Mart testaferro Roberto Ruiz > > presidente del Consejo Coordinador de > > Teotihuacan, permitio el inicio de las obras sin > > un rescate arqueológico apegado a las normas de > > ley (art. 44 del reglamento de la ley federal > > sobre monumentos y zonas arqueológicas, > > artísticos e históricos) en un lugar en el que se > > han realizado hallazgos arqueológicos > > durante las excavaciones para la cimentación del > > centro comercial. Y a pesar de la afectación que > > harán los edificios en construcción de la > > perspectiva del monumento histórico y artístico > > del siglo XIX denominado " puente del emperador". > > > > > > 2.-) el gobierno del estado de México, por medio > > de la Secretaria de desarrollo urbano y obra > > publica ha concedido la licencia de uso de suelo, > > a pesar de que el plan de desarrollo municipal de > > Teotihuacan en vigor desde noviembre de 2003 > > prohibe expresamente la construcción de centros > > comerciales y tiendas departamentales en el > > espacio clasificado > > como H833A donde se ha iniciado las obras de > > Bodega Aurrera, terreno que estaba destinado a la > > producción agrícola. > > > > 3.-) Las autoridades de tránsito estatal y > > federal no han tomado en cuenta el impacto vial > > que representa el trafico en los alrededores del > > centro comercial, situado a unos metros de la > > principal y arteria vial de San Juan Teotihuacan. > > > > > > 4.-) El presidente municipal de Teotihuacan, > > Guillermo Rodríguez Céspedes deforma económica, > > sin mediar petición escrita de Wal Mart en un > > cabildazo hizo aprobar la expedición de la > > licencia de construcción sin mediar ni una > > consulta a la población, ni los estudios de > > impacto del proyecto comercial de esta > > transnacional, ni la opinión técnica en materia > > vial, ecológica y sanitaria sobre la > > construcción, y operación del centro comercial en > > cuestión. > > > > 5.-) Que la sociedad civil por medio de la > > organización de las Naciones Indígenas Unidas > > A.C. ya se había pronunciado por escrito ante el > > presidente municipal de teotihuacan, desde el mes > > de marzo del corriente en contra de la > > construcción de establecimientos comerciales > > transnacionales de Teotihuacan. > > > > MANIFESTAMOS: > > > > 1.-) QUE SON A TODAS LUCES ILEGALES LOS PERMISOS > > Y AUTORIZACIONES OTORGADOS POR EL INAH, EL > > GOBIERNO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO Y EL AYUNTAMIENTO > > DE TEOTIHUACAN, RESPECTO A LA CONSTRUCCIÓN, > > OPERACIÓN Y USO DE SUELO DE "BODEGA AURRERA" CON > > DOMICILIO EN CRUZ DE LA MISION NUMERO 8 > > FRACCIONAMIENTO LA PARROQUIA DE SAN JUAN > > TEOTIHUACAN MEXICO. > > > > 2.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL ORGANIZADA DE > > TEOTIHUACAN TOMA EN SUS MANOS LA DEFENSA JURIDICA > > DE SUS LEGITIMOS INTERESES, EN FRANCA CONTRA LA > > CORRUPCION DE SUS AUTORIDADES. > > > > 3.-) QUE LA CONDICION DE CENTRO ESPIRITUAL Y > > CULTURAL DE MEXICO QUE ATRIBUIMOS LOS MEXICANOS A > > TEOTIHUACAN, HACE QUE ESTE ASUNTO SEA DE INTERES > > PARA TODO EL PUEBLO MEXICANO. > > > > 4.-) QUE SIENDO TEOTIHUACAN PATRIMONIO CULTURAL > > DE LA HUMANIDAD EL TEMA EXPUESTO ES DE INTERES > > INTERNACIONAL. > > > > 5.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL TEOTIHUACANA SE > > RESERVA EL DERECHO DE EJERCER CUALQUIER MEDIDA > > PARA HACERSE ESCUCHAR Y ATENDER DENTRO DE LOS > > MARGENES DE LA LEGALIDAD, Y DE ACUERDO CON LAS > > GARANTIAS QUE LE OTORGAN LAS CONSTITUCIONES > > POLITICAS DE LOS ESTADOS UNIDOS MEXICANOS Y LA > > DEL ESTADO LIBRE Y SOBERANO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO. > > > > > > 6.-) QUE AL MARGEN DE LAS RESPONSABILIDADES > > ADMINISTRATIVAS, CIVILES, PENALES Y/U OTRAS EN > > LAS QUE PUDIERAN INCURRIR LAS AUTORIDADES > > MUNICIPALES, ESTATALES Y FEDERALES Y QUE EN SU > > MOMENTO DENUNCIAREMOS POR LA VIA LEGAL, > > EMPLAZAMOS A LOS RESPONSABLES FRENTE AL JUICIO DE > > LA HISTORIA POR LAS AFECTACIONES QUE PRODUZCAN A > > NUSTRA FORMA DE VIDA Y TRADICIONES EXTRAÑAS A > > NUESTRA CULTURA MEXICANA Y > > TEOTIHUACANA. > > > > 7.-) LA DEFENSA DE NUESTRA AGUA, NUESTRA TIERRA Y > > DE NUESTRO ESPACIO, ANTE LA CONSTRUCCION Y > > OPERACIÓN PRESENTE O FUTURA DE FRACCIONAMEINTOS > > DE DESARROLLOS URBANOS Y COMERCIALES, SERA UNA > > CAUSA POPULAR, INDEPENDIENTE DE LA VOLUNTAD DE > > LOS GOBIERNOS QUE LOS AUTORICEN. > > > > 8.-) QUE DE NO DETENERSE LA CONSTRUCCION DEL > > CENTRO COMERCIAL, PROMOVEREMOS LA RENUNCIA DEL > > AYUNTAMIENTO MUNICIPAL DE TEOTIHUACAN. > > > > Comité de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Net: La mejor conexión a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes. > From jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Mon Sep 6 17:33:34 2004 From: jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9?= Rabasa) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:33:34 -0700 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Defensa=5Fde=5FTeotihuac=E1n?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Sí, incúyanme en la línea de tema del mensaje From ian.robertson at ASU.EDU Tue Sep 7 17:20:47 2004 From: ian.robertson at ASU.EDU (Ian Robertson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:20:47 -0700 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I expect this is old news to lots of you, but I have just become aware of a Nahuatl-English/English-Nahuatl dictionary by Fermin Herrera and published by Hippocrene books in 2003. Has anyone seen this dictionary and/or have any comments to make about it? Don't know how I missed it... Thanks, Ian Ian G. Robertson Department of Anthropology Arizona State University Tempe, AZ 85287-2402 phone: 480-965-5110 fax: 480-965-7671 From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Tue Sep 7 17:58:34 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:58:34 -0400 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <200409071721.i87HLx71021329@smtp.asu.edu> Message-ID: I just wrote a review of it in an article evaluating a number of recent books intended to facilitate Nahuatl studies. The review article has been submitted to the journal Ethnohistory. I am not sure how long it will be before it appears in print. Frances Karttunen On Sep 7, 2004, at 1:20 PM, Ian Robertson wrote: > I expect this is old news to lots of you, but I have just become aware > of a > Nahuatl-English/English-Nahuatl dictionary by Fermin Herrera and > published > by Hippocrene books in 2003. Has > anyone > seen this dictionary and/or have any comments to make about it? Don't > know > how I missed it... > > Thanks, Ian > > Ian G. Robertson > Department of Anthropology > Arizona State University > Tempe, AZ 85287-2402 > > phone: 480-965-5110 > fax: 480-965-7671 > From micc2 at COX.NET Tue Sep 7 20:48:42 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:48:42 -0700 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <200409071721.i87HLx71021329@smtp.asu.edu> Message-ID: My experience has been less than exciting. Since when did the Nahuas have a word for Czechoslovakia? (Checotlahtocayotl) auditorium? (nenonotzaloyan, tlacacoyan) American....analyze...anthropologist.... I think that this series of dictionaries gives the authors a certain list of words that they must find a gloss. You can see that the sentiment is if not universal, at least it is a majority view since you can find the book on Abebooks.com for about $10.00 now. Ian Robertson wrote: >I expect this is old news to lots of you, but I have just become aware of a >Nahuatl-English/English-Nahuatl dictionary by Fermin Herrera and published >by Hippocrene books in 2003. Has anyone >seen this dictionary and/or have any comments to make about it? Don't know >how I missed it... > >Thanks, Ian > >Ian G. Robertson >Department of Anthropology >Arizona State University >Tempe, AZ 85287-2402 > >phone: 480-965-5110 >fax: 480-965-7671 > > > From tepeyac at MINDSPRING.COM Tue Sep 7 21:07:45 2004 From: tepeyac at MINDSPRING.COM (Robert Michael Robinson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:07:45 -0400 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <413E1EAA.3080501@cox.net> Message-ID: micc2 wrote: > My experience has been less than exciting. > > Since when did the Nahuas have a word for Czechoslovakia? > (Checotlahtocayotl) auditorium? (nenonotzaloyan, tlacacoyan) > American....analyze...anthropologist.... > > I think that this series of dictionaries gives the authors a certain > list of words that they must find a gloss. > > You can see that the sentiment is if not universal, at least it is a > majority view since you can find the book on Abebooks.com for about > $10.00 now. > > > > > > Ian Robertson wrote: > >> I expect this is old news to lots of you, but I have just become >> aware of a >> Nahuatl-English/English-Nahuatl dictionary by Fermin Herrera and >> published >> by Hippocrene books in 2003. Has anyone >> seen this dictionary and/or have any comments to make about it? Don't >> know >> how I missed it... >> >> Thanks, Ian >> >> Ian G. Robertson >> Department of Anthropology >> Arizona State University >> Tempe, AZ 85287-2402 >> >> phone: 480-965-5110 >> fax: 480-965-7671 >> >> >> > Listeros and Listeras, It is important to recall that Nahuatl is not a dead language. We may choose to emphasize Classical Nahuatl, the language is still a living one. One of the advantages of this group is that many of the members are doing very serious investigations of modern nahuatl. One of the joys of living in New York is the chance to try out my very broken Nahuatl while ordering a sandwich in a deli. For these men it is a living language with modern words. I have also sat with people in Mexico who were explaining the proper word for coffee to me, drink-that-prevents-sleep. I believe there is a serious attempt to express things in Nahuatl without borrowing words. I am sure that there are scholars in this group are much more qualified than I to comment on this and hope we get a lively discussion going. hasta moxtla R M Robinson From no_doyohn at YAHOO.COM Tue Sep 7 21:22:05 2004 From: no_doyohn at YAHOO.COM (Stef) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 14:22:05 -0700 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <413E2321.3050602@mindspring.com> Message-ID: I think Robert is right. It is a still existing and living language and therefore there need to be words for things or countries in our modern world. If it wouldnt be given the chance to develop new expressions it wouldn`t be used very often in the future. Whenever you talk about the daily life nowadays you`ll have to use modern words sooner or later and using only the "old" vocabulary would limit the conversation pretty much I think. At least that`s my opinion. When looking for a dictionary you need to know what`s important for you, since I study language and cultural sciences I learned that pretty quickly. I`m not too happy with modern words in an ancient language like Latin for example when I read a text using words like aeroplanus and so on. But since this languge is still used, I think it`s good. I really appreciate that micc2 gave some info on that though. Since I�m always looking for new books too. Ye ixquich, Stefanie Robert Michael Robinson wrote: micc2 wrote: > My experience has been less than exciting. > > Since when did the Nahuas have a word for Czechoslovakia? > (Checotlahtocayotl) auditorium? (nenonotzaloyan, tlacacoyan) > American....analyze...anthropologist.... > > I think that this series of dictionaries gives the authors a certain > list of words that they must find a gloss. > > You can see that the sentiment is if not universal, at least it is a > majority view since you can find the book on Abebooks.com for about > $10.00 now. > > > > > > Ian Robertson wrote: > >> I expect this is old news to lots of you, but I have just become >> aware of a >> Nahuatl-English/English-Nahuatl dictionary by Fermin Herrera and >> published >> by Hippocrene books in 2003. Has anyone >> seen this dictionary and/or have any comments to make about it? Don't >> know >> how I missed it... >> >> Thanks, Ian >> >> Ian G. Robertson >> Department of Anthropology >> Arizona State University >> Tempe, AZ 85287-2402 >> >> phone: 480-965-5110 >> fax: 480-965-7671 >> >> >> > Listeros and Listeras, It is important to recall that Nahuatl is not a dead language. We may choose to emphasize Classical Nahuatl, the language is still a living one. One of the advantages of this group is that many of the members are doing very serious investigations of modern nahuatl. One of the joys of living in New York is the chance to try out my very broken Nahuatl while ordering a sandwich in a deli. For these men it is a living language with modern words. I have also sat with people in Mexico who were explaining the proper word for coffee to me, drink-that-prevents-sleep. I believe there is a serious attempt to express things in Nahuatl without borrowing words. I am sure that there are scholars in this group are much more qualified than I to comment on this and hope we get a lively discussion going. hasta moxtla R M Robinson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micc2 at COX.NET Tue Sep 7 21:22:47 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 14:22:47 -0700 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <413E2321.3050602@mindspring.com> Message-ID: "... I have also sat with people in Mexico who were explaining the proper word for coffee to me, drink-that-prevents-sleep. I believe there is a serious attempt to express things in Nahuatl without borrowing words. ..." I believe that there are times when creating non "borrowed" words becomes elitist. Such as when the French want to get rid of "le week end" in French or Spanish speakers want to use correo electronico instead of "email" my experience has been with spanish speakers (here on the frontera) and my Nahuatl friends from Veracruz that most people opt for the least amount of syllables. Thus technology usually keeps the terms from the society it came from (like tomatl, chocolatl in the 16th century as they went to the rest of the world) Robert Michael Robinson wrote: > micc2 wrote: > >> My experience has been less than exciting. >> >> Since when did the Nahuas have a word for Czechoslovakia? >> (Checotlahtocayotl) auditorium? (nenonotzaloyan, tlacacoyan) >> American....analyze...anthropologist.... >> >> I think that this series of dictionaries gives the authors a certain >> list of words that they must find a gloss. >> >> You can see that the sentiment is if not universal, at least it is a >> majority view since you can find the book on Abebooks.com for about >> $10.00 now. >> >> >> >> >> >> Ian Robertson wrote: >> >>> I expect this is old news to lots of you, but I have just become >>> aware of a >>> Nahuatl-English/English-Nahuatl dictionary by Fermin Herrera and >>> published >>> by Hippocrene books in 2003. Has >>> anyone >>> seen this dictionary and/or have any comments to make about it? Don't >>> know >>> how I missed it... >>> >>> Thanks, Ian >>> >>> Ian G. Robertson >>> Department of Anthropology >>> Arizona State University >>> Tempe, AZ 85287-2402 >>> >>> phone: 480-965-5110 >>> fax: 480-965-7671 >>> >>> >>> >> > Listeros and Listeras, > It is important to recall that Nahuatl is not a dead language. > We may choose to emphasize Classical Nahuatl, the language is still a > living one. > One of the advantages of this group is that many of the members are > doing very serious investigations of modern nahuatl. > One of the joys of living in New York is the chance to try out my very > broken Nahuatl while ordering a sandwich in a deli. For these men it is > a living language with modern words. I have also sat with people in > Mexico who were explaining the proper word for coffee to me, > drink-that-prevents-sleep. I believe there is a serious attempt to > express things in Nahuatl without borrowing words. > > I am sure that there are scholars in this group are much more qualified > than I to comment on this and hope we get a lively discussion going. > > hasta moxtla > > R M Robinson > From micc2 at COX.NET Tue Sep 7 21:34:25 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 14:34:25 -0700 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <20040907212205.32750.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tlazcamati for your words Stephanie, I just think that we should be careful of creating words that will never be used by the "common folk" It is easy to create words that will serve no purpose except to show how adroit a person is at manipulating a language. especially when beginners like me are taught these "new words" as canonical words that imply wide usage, we might end up talking nonsense to native speakers who might look at us with bemusement. Many years ago a "nahuatl teacher" told me that to say "tren" (train) you said: tepuztelollotl. I said this word once to another Nahuatl speaker, one who did not put himself out there as a "maestro" and she said I had just said " it is a metal corncob"......hmmmm...... From no_doyohn at YAHOO.COM Tue Sep 7 22:02:05 2004 From: no_doyohn at YAHOO.COM (Stef) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:02:05 -0700 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <413E2961.1070703@cox.net> Message-ID: ouch, how annoying. I absolutely agree on that ! This kind of vocabulary must be clearly defined and taught as an attempt to create a wider range of vocabulary for new things and not as common used words. That`s a good example of how languages should not be taught. micc2 wrote: Tlazcamati for your words Stephanie, I just think that we should be careful of creating words that will never be used by the "common folk" It is easy to create words that will serve no purpose except to show how adroit a person is at manipulating a language. especially when beginners like me are taught these "new words" as canonical words that imply wide usage, we might end up talking nonsense to native speakers who might look at us with bemusement. Many years ago a "nahuatl teacher" told me that to say "tren" (train) you said: tepuztelollotl. I said this word once to another Nahuatl speaker, one who did not put himself out there as a "maestro" and she said I had just said " it is a metal corncob"......hmmmm...... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Sep 7 23:12:49 2004 From: jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:12:49 -0700 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <20040907220205.15758.qmail@web11109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The European production of words in the sixteenth century to name and describe American things and people led to phenomena not unlike "it is a metal corncob." Read, for example, Oviedo's entry on the pineapple, la piña, in the HISTORIA NATURAL DE LAS INDIAS (ca 1547) and you will find an alternation between "piña" as in pine cones and "alcarchofa." The description of flavor bursts into tutti-frutti. The coining of new words need not be transparent at first. The principle should be that Nahuatl is an incredibly resourceful and elegant language that can invent terms for the most contemporary objects. >ouch, how annoying. I absolutely agree on that ! >This kind of vocabulary must be clearly defined and taught as an >attempt to create a wider range of vocabulary for new things and not >as common used words. That`s a good example of how languages should >not be taught. > >micc2 wrote: > >Tlazcamati for your words Stephanie, > >I just think that we should be careful of creating words that will never >be used by the "common folk" It is easy to create words that will >serve no purpose >except to show how adroit a person is at manipulating a language. > >especially when beginners like me are taught these "new words" as >canonical words that imply wide usage, we might end up alking nonsense >to native speakers who might look at us with bemusement. > >Many years ago a "nahuatl teacher" told me that to say "tren" (train) >you said: tepuztelollotl. I said this word once to another Nahuatl >speaker, one who did not >put himself out there as a "maestro" and she said I had just said " >it is a metal corncob"......hmmmm...... > > >Do you Yahoo!? >Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! >Enter >now. -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Tue Sep 7 23:33:17 2004 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 19:33:17 EDT Subject: Hippocrene dictionary Message-ID: Listeros: Once again I am impressed by the thoughtful openmindedness of many of the people on this list. I very much look forward to reading Fran's review (see below) but am reminded of a comment someone much wiser than I made about language: 'the only perfect language is a dead one.' That is, once a language is no longer actively used then there is always someone who fixes upon some 'high culture' definition of what constituted that now-no-longer-spoken language, makes its conventions the standard for all other varieties, and then attempts to foist this somewhat (not always completely) arbitrary choice on everyone else who wants to study that language. I am rather focused on the 16th to 19th century varieties of Nahuatl (as expressed in docs) but am very mindful and appreciative of what others have been, or are, doing. For example, I think Jonathan Amith's upcoming publication is going to be a major help for folks like me. The more the merrier. And my sincere thanks to all of you who help keep Nahuatl, in all its many spoken and written forms, a living language. Oannechmocnelilitzinoque, otlacauhqui in amochalchiuhyollotzin. Ye ixquich. Barry D. Sell In a message dated 9/7/04 11:16:18 AM, karttu at NANTUCKET.NET writes: > I just wrote a review of it in an article evaluating a number of recent > books intended to facilitate Nahuatl studies.  The review article has > been submitted to the journal Ethnohistory. I am not sure how long it > will be before it appears in print. > > Frances Karttunen > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From macuil2 at MSN.COM Wed Sep 8 05:48:55 2004 From: macuil2 at MSN.COM (Raul macuil martinez) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 07:48:55 +0200 Subject: Defensa_de_Teotihuacn Message-ID: Incluyanme en la l�nea del mensaje. No se dejen que ocurra lo que sucedi� en Tlaxcala, por la Construcci�n de una Bodega Aurrera, se afectaron a muchos comerciantes del Inmemorial Mercado de Ocotelulco, Tlaxcala. >From: "trottolo2001 at inwind.it" >Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >Subject: Re: Defensa_de_Teotihuac�n >Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 09:08:41 +0200 > > S�, inc�yanme en la l�nea de tema del mensaje > > > > > > > > > Hola > > > > Te saludo y me uno a lista por la defensa de Teotihuacan. Por desgracia >no est�s dormida, el capitalismo, ahora en su etapa neoliberal sigue siendo >destructor de todas y cualquier cultura cuya l�gica no sea la acumulaci�n >de capital; los pol�ticos mexicanos son incultos, vanidosos y tontos, o >mesquinos, no se. No se les ocurre, por ejemplo, proponer la creaci�n de un >hotel tipo colonial en Acolman o fuera de San Juan Teotihuacan que pudiera >atraer turismo o un corredor turistico que abarcara toda la zona y cuyos >ingresos sirvieran para dar mantenimiento a las pir�mides y otras >construcciones. Es triste, muy triste, ojal� y logremos evitar esta >agresi�n a una de las muestras m�s ricas de la cultura prehisp�nica. > > > > Ma. de los �ngeles Sanchez Noriega A. > > > > > > > > Maria wrote: > > st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } > > Amigos: > > > > Les estoy transmitiendo la carta que me enviara Alessandra Luiselli, >desde Texas. Es muy importante que nos solidaricemos por la defensa de >Teotihuacan. No puede ser que les heredemos a nuestros hijos en lugar de >una plaza se�orial. Cargada de energ�a, una plaza Walmart, con su consabida >carga globalizante de art�culos a bajo precio, productos pl�sticos, ropa de >acr�lico y nylon, infinidad de productos de consumo necesario e >innecesario. ��til? Ya lo creo que s�. Pero no sobre la cultura ancestral y >a un lado de ese portento que muchos visitamos para llenarnos de energ�a y >recoger, en pedazos, nuestra identidad pisoteada. Luchemos y, por favor, >pell�zquenme para que yo compuebe que estoy dormida. No puede ser que a >alg�n pol�tico se le haya ocurrido poner ese Walmart, justamente ah�. >�Recuerden, luchar ni cuesta ni empobrece, ni protestar envejece! M�ndenos >su aprobaci�n de inmediato, para incluir su nombre en el desplegado que >aparecer� en un diario de alta circulaci�n. Solo tienen > > que hacer reply, s�, inc�yanme en la l�nea de tema del mensaje o >dirigirse a: > > > > > > > > Alessandra Luiselli: viajeraquevas at yahoo.com.mx > > > > > > > > Los abrazo. > > > > Mar�a Dolores Bol�var > > > > > > > > > > > > En defensa del Valle de Teotihuacan > > > > > > > > Fecha: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:37:11 -0500 > > > > > > > > Comit� de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan > > > > > > > > El sitio arqueol�gico de Teotihuacan, considerado > > > > por las naciones unidas como un patrimonio de la > > > > humanidad, y uno de los tesoros espirituales y > > > > culturales de M�xico, esta siendo acosado por > > > > fuerzas globalizadoras. En forma sorpresiva, se > > > > ha iniciado la construcci�n de un centro > > > > comercial de Wal Mart en las inmediaciones de las > > > > pir�mides. > > > > > > > > Mediante una campa�a de propaganda en bardas y en > > > > desplegados en contra del Instituto Nacional de > > > > Antropolog�a e Historia, los promotores de este > > > > proyecto y sus c�mplices pol�ticos en la regi�n, > > > > lograron aparentar que la opini�n publica local > > > > esta de acuerdo con que la zona Arqueol�gica se > > > > vuelva un bot�n comercial de quien este dispuesto > > > > a pagar por medrar con el patrimonio cultural de > > > > Teotihuacan, y as� el INAH ha liberado el predio > > > > respecto a las restricciones se�aladas por la Ley > > > > Federal de Monumentos y zonas arqueol�gicas, > > > > art�sticos y culturales en vigor; las autoridades > > > > estatales por su parte, otorgaron el permiso de > > > > uso de suelo, y > > > > las municipales la licencia de construcci�n, para > > > > un establecimiento que a todas luces afecta > > > > m�ltiples aspectos de la vida de la regi�n del > > > > valle de Teotihuacan. > > > > > > > > El casco urbano de San Juan, la cabecera > > > > municipal de donde se lleva el proyecto, tiene > > > > como �nico acceso desde la autopista M�xico- > > > > Pir�mides, la Av. Hidalgo donde actualmente el > > > > tr�fico es ya muy conflictivo, siendo la arteria > > > > principal de la poblaci�n por lo que la presencia > > > > de un centro comercial, a escasos metros de esa > > > > Av., vendr� a desquiciar la vialidad en todo el > > > > pueblo, desde los > > > > tr�boles de la autopista hasta el centro. > > > > > > > > Las obras se est�n llevando a cabo en las > > > > inmediaciones de un monumento hist�rico y > > > > art�stico, el puente del emperador, al que > > > > afectar� visualmente por estar colindante con el > > > > centro comercial en construcci�n, afectaci�n que > > > > incluye las pir�mides, localizadas a menos de > > > > medio kilometro de la pretendida bodega Aurrera. > > > > > > > > La construcci�n se esta realizando en terrenos de > > > > alta productividad agr�cola, en una regi�n donde > > > > la poblaci�n mayoritariamente se dedica a la > > > > agricultura, y en forma muy importante al > > > > comercio, por lo que se considera que la > > > > presencia de un establecimiento comercial de gran > > > > superficie como el que se pretende producir� un > > > > impacto econ�mico nefasto para la mayor�a de los > > > > comercios de la regi�n, y que implicara la > > > > deformaci�n de los usos y > > > > costumbres tradicionales de producci�n y consumo > > > > en toda el �rea de influencia del valle de > > > > Teotihuacan, donde sus habitantes est�n ligados > > > > por lazos culturales e hist�ricos a sus > > > > monumentos prehisp�nicos. > > > > > > > > Todas las afectaciones referidas para nada a sido > > > > puesta en consideraci�n de la poblaci�n, y, en > > > > franco desaf�o al principio de municipio libre, > > > > el gobierno del Estado de M�xico, pasando por > > > > alto originalmente al ayuntamiento otorgo la > > > > licencia de uso de suelo y el ayuntamiento, - por > > > > encima de la comunidad- la licencia de > > > > construcci�n; adem�s de que las autoridades del > > > > INAH y las de transito federal y estatal no ha > > > > hecho valer las leyes de las que son custodios. > > > > > > > > La poblaci�n del valle de Teotihuacan ha decidido > > > > enfrentar este intento de globalizar este reducto > > > > de la historia de M�xico, patrimonio cultural de > > > > M�xico y de la humanidad; y apelando a las > > > > garant�as que le otorgan las Constituciones de la > > > > Rep�blica y la del > > > > Estado de M�xico y las Leyes que de ella se > > > > desprenden, har�n valer ante las autoridades de > > > > los tres niveles de gobierno, de los tres poderes > > > > de la uni�n la defensa de sus derechos, > > > > denunciando la trama de componendas e intereses > > > > que han permitido el inicio de las obras de la > > > > bodega Aurrera-WalMart en Teotihuacan. > > > > > > > > Comit� de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. > > > > Teotihuacan de Arista, 15 de agosto de 2004. > > > > Mayor informaci�n Circuito Pir�mides s/n Detr�s > > > > de la Pir�mide de la luna, con Emma Ortega Moreno > > > > > > > > tel.01(594) 95 8 23 06 > > > > > > > > > MANIFIESTO DEL VALLE DE TEOTIHUACAN > > > > > > > > Mas de 2000 a�os de tradici�n no pueden > > > > desaparecer para dar paso al proyecto de > > > > globalizaci�n en contra de un pueblo que a cada > > > > d�a ve debilitar su econom�a, mientras que los > > > > grandes capitales transnacionales amasan > > > > cuantiosas fortunas que convierten en d�lares que > > > > terminan fuera del pa�s, un pa�s que ha pesar de > > > > contar con enormes riquezas > > > > y recursos naturales esta convirti�ndose en > > > > esclavo de su propia tierra. > > > > > > > > En este momento amargo de disoluci�n del concepto > > > > de naci�n en aras de los intereses > > > > globalizadores, toca a los mexicanos de hoy > > > > defender la tierra que nos vio nacer, y a > > > > nosotros los Teotihuacanos, en particular, > > > > hacerlo con esta privilegiada porci�n de > > > > nuestro pa�s donde esta plasmado en pir�mides y > > > > monumentos del pasado de M�xico. > > > > > > > > El pasado de Teotihuacan, que llega hasta nuestro > > > > presente en forma de pir�mides, orgullo de M�xico > > > > y declarado patrimonio de la humanidad, esta > > > > amenazado ahora por proyectos de las fuerzas > > > > globalizadoras que empiezan a a�orar con la > > > > construcci�n de un centro comercial de una firma > > > > transnacional que sin duda servir� de punta de > > > > lanza para que mas adelante nuestra tierra se > > > > fraccione para la construcci�n de > > > > unidades habitacionales que har�n que se escaseen > > > > y se encarezcan nuestra agua y los servicios > > > > p�blicos de que nos hemos dotado los > > > > teotihuacanos poniendo en peligro la subsistencia > > > > de las futuras generaciones. > > > > > > > > Estamos constatando dolorosamente como las > > > > autoridades del INAH, imponen a los pobladores > > > > del valle onerosas restricci�n y ampliaci�n de > > > > sus viviendas pretextando la protecci�n del > > > > patrimonio arqueol�gico de la zona, aunque todas > > > > las restricciones no se apliquen a los grandes > > > > intereses, como en el caso de la construcci�n de > > > > la bodega Aurrera por parte de la transnacional > > > > Wal Mart en un acuerdo evidente con las > > > > autoridades del INAH, del gobierno del Estado de > > > > M�xico y del ayuntamiento, que de pronto otorga > > > > licencias y permisos para la construcci�n del > > > > centro comercial ya mencionado, hemos constatado > > > > como esos intereses transnacionales con sus > > > > pol�ticas comerciales ma�osas se infiltran en el > > > > consumidor mediante precios bajos para acabar con > > > > la competencia, para que una vez eliminada > > > > establezcan condiciones monop�licas en detrimento > > > > del poder adquisitivo de la poblaci�n. > > > > > > > > Pero si el da�o que representa la desaparici�n de > > > > muchos cientos de peque�os y medianos negocios es > > > > una amenaza para la econom�a regional, el mayor > > > > da�o es el que el dinero que los consumidores > > > > gastan en el comercio tradicional vuelve a la > > > > econom�a de la regi�n, y se recicla derramando > > > > beneficios para toda la poblaci�n mediante la > > > > creaci�n de nuevos empleos y de una mayor > > > > demanda, pero el dinero gastado en las cadenas > > > > transnacionales salen definitivamente del pa�s, > > > > dejando un precario remanente para empleados > > > > locales, pues los responsables y administradores > > > > son regularmente fuere�os. > > > > > > > > Puesto que la operaci�n de un centro comercial > > > > transnacional en Teotihuacan afecta a todos los > > > > comercios de la regi�n, que vive precisamente de > > > > la actividad comercial, consideramos > > > > indispensable defender a toda costa nuestra > > > > fuente de trabajo y las formas tradicionales de > > > > consumo de nuestras comunidades. > > > > > > > > Las disposiciones reglamentarias del uso de suelo > > > > en el valle de Teotihuacan han impedido hasta > > > > ahora el desarrollo de otras industrias que no > > > > sean la tur�stica en toda la regi�n por lo tanto > > > > no hay suficiente generaci�n de empleo que no sea > > > > en la agricultura y en el autoempleo que propicia > > > > el peque�o comercio; as� la desaparici�n de dos > > > > millares de comercios medianos y peque�os, que > > > > traer�a una tienda de autoservicio como la que > > > > pretende instalarse en Teotihuacan dejar�a a todo > > > > el valle de Teotihuacan econ�micamente inerme, y > > > > con desempleo inmanejable que sin duda generar�a > > > > desorden social y delincuencia. > > > > > > > > El temor y la apat�a que en otro tiempo cavaron > > > > la tumba de nuestros proyectos ante la coacci�n > > > > de la autoridades desp�ticas son cosas del > > > > pasado. Hoy la solidaridad en la defensa de lo > > > > que es nuestro, nos lleva a luchas hasta la > > > > victoria. No nos vamos a quedar con los brazos > > > > cruzados viendo a nuestro Teotihuacan irse de > > > > nuestras manos, llev�ndose el futuro de nuestros > > > > hijos, que tienen que migrar a tierras extra�as > > > > buscando mejores oportunidades, abandonando todo, > > > > dejando a sus familias y hasta arriesgando la > > > > vida para obtener el sustento para su > > > > familia. Esta seria la ultima opci�n para muchos > > > > teotihuacanos que la desaparecer el peque�o > > > > comercio ante el embate de las cadena comerciales > > > > se ver�an obligados a emigrar. > > > > > > > > CONSIDERANDO QUE: > > > > > > > > 1.-) el INAH, cediendo a las presiones de la > > > > empresa Wal Mart testaferro Roberto Ruiz > > > > presidente del Consejo Coordinador de > > > > Teotihuacan, permitio el inicio de las obras sin > > > > un rescate arqueol�gico apegado a las normas de > > > > ley (art. 44 del reglamento de la ley federal > > > > sobre monumentos y zonas arqueol�gicas, > > > > art�sticos e hist�ricos) en un lugar en el que se > > > > han realizado hallazgos arqueol�gicos > > > > durante las excavaciones para la cimentaci�n del > > > > centro comercial. Y a pesar de la afectaci�n que > > > > har�n los edificios en construcci�n de la > > > > perspectiva del monumento hist�rico y art�stico > > > > del siglo XIX denominado " puente del emperador". > > > > > > > > > > > > 2.-) el gobierno del estado de M�xico, por medio > > > > de la Secretaria de desarrollo urbano y obra > > > > publica ha concedido la licencia de uso de suelo, > > > > a pesar de que el plan de desarrollo municipal de > > > > Teotihuacan en vigor desde noviembre de 2003 > > > > prohibe expresamente la construcci�n de centros > > > > comerciales y tiendas departamentales en el > > > > espacio clasificado > > > > como H833A donde se ha iniciado las obras de > > > > Bodega Aurrera, terreno que estaba destinado a la > > > > producci�n agr�cola. > > > > > > > > 3.-) Las autoridades de tr�nsito estatal y > > > > federal no han tomado en cuenta el impacto vial > > > > que representa el trafico en los alrededores del > > > > centro comercial, situado a unos metros de la > > > > principal y arteria vial de San Juan Teotihuacan. > > > > > > > > > > > > 4.-) El presidente municipal de Teotihuacan, > > > > Guillermo Rodr�guez C�spedes deforma econ�mica, > > > > sin mediar petici�n escrita de Wal Mart en un > > > > cabildazo hizo aprobar la expedici�n de la > > > > licencia de construcci�n sin mediar ni una > > > > consulta a la poblaci�n, ni los estudios de > > > > impacto del proyecto comercial de esta > > > > transnacional, ni la opini�n t�cnica en materia > > > > vial, ecol�gica y sanitaria sobre la > > > > construcci�n, y operaci�n del centro comercial en > > > > cuesti�n. > > > > > > > > 5.-) Que la sociedad civil por medio de la > > > > organizaci�n de las Naciones Ind�genas Unidas > > > > A.C. ya se hab�a pronunciado por escrito ante el > > > > presidente municipal de teotihuacan, desde el mes > > > > de marzo del corriente en contra de la > > > > construcci�n de establecimientos comerciales > > > > transnacionales de Teotihuacan. > > > > > > > > MANIFESTAMOS: > > > > > > > > 1.-) QUE SON A TODAS LUCES ILEGALES LOS PERMISOS > > > > Y AUTORIZACIONES OTORGADOS POR EL INAH, EL > > > > GOBIERNO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO Y EL AYUNTAMIENTO > > > > DE TEOTIHUACAN, RESPECTO A LA CONSTRUCCI�N, > > > > OPERACI�N Y USO DE SUELO DE "BODEGA AURRERA" CON > > > > DOMICILIO EN CRUZ DE LA MISION NUMERO 8 > > > > FRACCIONAMIENTO LA PARROQUIA DE SAN JUAN > > > > TEOTIHUACAN MEXICO. > > > > > > > > 2.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL ORGANIZADA DE > > > > TEOTIHUACAN TOMA EN SUS MANOS LA DEFENSA JURIDICA > > > > DE SUS LEGITIMOS INTERESES, EN FRANCA CONTRA LA > > > > CORRUPCION DE SUS AUTORIDADES. > > > > > > > > 3.-) QUE LA CONDICION DE CENTRO ESPIRITUAL Y > > > > CULTURAL DE MEXICO QUE ATRIBUIMOS LOS MEXICANOS A > > > > TEOTIHUACAN, HACE QUE ESTE ASUNTO SEA DE INTERES > > > > PARA TODO EL PUEBLO MEXICANO. > > > > > > > > 4.-) QUE SIENDO TEOTIHUACAN PATRIMONIO CULTURAL > > > > DE LA HUMANIDAD EL TEMA EXPUESTO ES DE INTERES > > > > INTERNACIONAL. > > > > > > > > 5.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL TEOTIHUACANA SE > > > > RESERVA EL DERECHO DE EJERCER CUALQUIER MEDIDA > > > > PARA HACERSE ESCUCHAR Y ATENDER DENTRO DE LOS > > > > MARGENES DE LA LEGALIDAD, Y DE ACUERDO CON LAS > > > > GARANTIAS QUE LE OTORGAN LAS CONSTITUCIONES > > > > POLITICAS DE LOS ESTADOS UNIDOS MEXICANOS Y LA > > > > DEL ESTADO LIBRE Y SOBERANO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO. > > > > > > > > > > > > 6.-) QUE AL MARGEN DE LAS RESPONSABILIDADES > > > > ADMINISTRATIVAS, CIVILES, PENALES Y/U OTRAS EN > > > > LAS QUE PUDIERAN INCURRIR LAS AUTORIDADES > > > > MUNICIPALES, ESTATALES Y FEDERALES Y QUE EN SU > > > > MOMENTO DENUNCIAREMOS POR LA VIA LEGAL, > > > > EMPLAZAMOS A LOS RESPONSABLES FRENTE AL JUICIO DE > > > > LA HISTORIA POR LAS AFECTACIONES QUE PRODUZCAN A > > > > NUSTRA FORMA DE VIDA Y TRADICIONES EXTRA�AS A > > > > NUESTRA CULTURA MEXICANA Y > > > > TEOTIHUACANA. > > > > > > > > 7.-) LA DEFENSA DE NUESTRA AGUA, NUESTRA TIERRA Y > > > > DE NUESTRO ESPACIO, ANTE LA CONSTRUCCION Y > > > > OPERACI�N PRESENTE O FUTURA DE FRACCIONAMEINTOS > > > > DE DESARROLLOS URBANOS Y COMERCIALES, SERA UNA > > > > CAUSA POPULAR, INDEPENDIENTE DE LA VOLUNTAD DE > > > > LOS GOBIERNOS QUE LOS AUTORICEN. > > > > > > > > 8.-) QUE DE NO DETENERSE LA CONSTRUCCION DEL > > > > CENTRO COMERCIAL, PROMOVEREMOS LA RENUNCIA DEL > > > > AYUNTAMIENTO MUNICIPAL DE TEOTIHUACAN. > > > > > > > > Comit� de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Net: La mejor conexi�n a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por >$100 al mes. > > _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM Wed Sep 8 21:54:42 2004 From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:54:42 -0700 Subject: tociahuiliz In-Reply-To: <40EA0B5B.3060703@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: Tociahuiliz is translated as "nuestra voluntad" (our will) (Rojas, Vidas y Bienes Olvidados vol.3, p.288, CIESAS, 2000). But in Simeon, under Ciauiliztli, I find the translation ""fatigue", not will. Under cializtli, however, I find "Will". In the text below, is tociahuiliz really "our fatigue", instead of "our will"? Thanks, Rich ...yhuan quimaxiltiliz yn notlatecpan ayac aquin quitlatzonhuiliz ma caxtiltecatl yn ma teopixqui yn ma altepetl ca huel tociahuiliz ca huel tonecocol yc otitoxinaxtique yn macihui quezquintin ychcame... ...que nadie la vaya a desbaratar, sea castellano, sea sacerdote o uno del pueblo, ya que es por nuestra voluntad y no es por enemistad que venimos a criar cuantas ovejas... let nobody destroy (my testament), whether they be Spaniards, or priest, or someone from the town, because it's of our will and not of enmity that we came to breed sheep... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Wed Sep 8 22:55:26 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:55:26 -0500 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <19a.2967ced6.2e6f9f3d@aol.com> Message-ID: Listeros, I had a chance to briefly peruse Herrera's work this Summer. First of all, it isn't a dictionary: it's a vocabulary list. This list makes no mention of where the material came from. Are there classical sources? Are there modern sources? If so, what are they? We have written evidence that Nahuatl as a language has been creatively adapting to change since the mid 1530s. Today words for car and bus, for example, differ from microregion to microregion. In Zacatecas, we work simultaneously with Older and Modern Nahuatl, and since our vehicle for teaching is the language itself, we are constantly struggling with ways to express new concepts. This is all good. The problem is that if you are going to publish a dictionary, you need to be methodical and explicit about how you put it together. You need to explain the decisions you had to make in order to arrive at your final system of "words", definitions, and grammatical terminology. This is not done in Herrera's work. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Sep 7, 2004, at 6:33 PM, Amapohuani at AOL.COM wrote: > Listeros: > > Once again I am impressed by the thoughtful openmindedness of many of > the people on this list. I very much look forward to reading Fran's > review (see below) but am reminded of a comment someone much wiser > than I made about language: 'the only perfect language is a dead one.' > That is, once a language is no longer actively used then there is > always someone who fixes upon some 'high culture' definition of what > constituted that now-no-longer-spoken language, makes its conventions > the standard for all other varieties, and then attempts to foist this > somewhat (not always completely) arbitrary choice on everyone else who > wants to study that language. > > I am rather focused on the 16th to 19th century varieties of Nahuatl > (as expressed in docs) but am very mindful and appreciative of what > others have been, or are, doing. For example, I think Jonathan Amith's > upcoming publication is going to be a major help for folks like me. > > The more the merrier. And my sincere thanks to all of you who help > keep Nahuatl, in all its many spoken and written forms, a living > language. Oannechmocnelilitzinoque, otlacauhqui in > amochalchiuhyollotzin. > > Ye ixquich. > Barry D. Sell > > In a message dated 9/7/04 11:16:18 AM, karttu at NANTUCKET.NET writes: > > > > I just wrote a review of it in an article evaluating a number of recent > books intended to facilitate Nahuatl studies.  The review article has > been submitted to the journal Ethnohistory. I am not sure how long it > will be before it appears in print. > > Frances Karttunen > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3828 bytes Desc: not available URL: From micc2 at COX.NET Thu Sep 9 00:21:59 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:21:59 -0700 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <2CC5F13D-01EA-11D9-89B9-003065C46A4A@mac.com> Message-ID: I was fortunate to have taken the five week summer course offered by John and the Nahuatl indigenous people he works with this past summer. I would recommend it to anyone who wants an in-depth cultural, social, linguistic, and (yes, even a) spiritual experience! They are working on a Nahuatl web portal that will offer a great many texts in both older and modern Nahuatl. This will include a Nahuatl dictionary written by and for Nahuatl native speakers! Their website is: www.idiez.org.mx mario e. aguilar chuco13 www.mexicayotl.org idiez at MAC.COM wrote: > Listeros, > I had a chance to briefly peruse Herrera's work this Summer. First of > all, it isn't a dictionary: it's a vocabulary list. This list makes no > mention of where the material came from. Are there classical sources? > Are there modern sources? If so, what are they? > We have written evidence that Nahuatl as a language has been > creatively adapting to change since the mid 1530s. Today words for car > and bus, for example, differ from microregion to microregion. In > Zacatecas, we work simultaneously with Older and Modern Nahuatl, and > since our vehicle for teaching is the language itself, we are > constantly struggling with ways to express new concepts. This is all > good. The problem is that if you are going to publish a dictionary, > you need to be methodical and explicit about how you put it together. > You need to explain the decisions you had to make in order to arrive > at your final system of "words", definitions, and grammatical > terminology. This is not done in Herrera's work. > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Unidad Académica de Idiomas > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Histórico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > México > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > > > > On Sep 7, 2004, at 6:33 PM, Amapohuani at AOL.COM wrote: > > Listeros: > > Once again I am impressed by the thoughtful openmindedness of many > of the people on this list. I very much look forward to reading > Fran's review (see below) but am reminded of a comment someone > much wiser than I made about language: 'the only perfect language > is a dead one.' That is, once a language is no longer actively > used then there is always someone who fixes upon some 'high > culture' definition of what constituted that now-no-longer-spoken > language, makes its conventions the standard for all other > varieties, and then attempts to foist this somewhat (not always > completely) arbitrary choice on everyone else who wants to study > that language. > > I am rather focused on the 16th to 19th century varieties of > Nahuatl (as expressed in docs) but am very mindful and > appreciative of what others have been, or are, doing. For example, > I think Jonathan Amith's upcoming publication is going to be a > major help for folks like me. > > The more the merrier. And my sincere thanks to all of you who help > keep Nahuatl, in all its many spoken and written forms, a living > language. Oannechmocnelilitzinoque, otlacauhqui in > amochalchiuhyollotzin. > > Ye ixquich. > Barry D. Sell > > In a message dated 9/7/04 11:16:18 AM, karttu at NANTUCKET.NET writes: > > > > I just wrote a review of it in an article evaluating a number of > recent > books intended to facilitate Nahuatl studies. The review article has > been submitted to the journal Ethnohistory. I am not sure how long it > will be before it appears in print. > > Frances Karttunen > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Thu Sep 9 00:30:06 2004 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 20:30:06 EDT Subject: Hippocrene dictionary Message-ID: Listeros: IMHO, John's point is very well taken. Ye ixquich. Barry D. Sell In a message dated 9/8/04 4:10:57 PM, idiez at MAC.COM writes: > Listeros, >         I had a chance to briefly peruse Herrera's work this Summer. First > of > all, it isn't a dictionary: it's a vocabulary list. This list makes no > mention of where the material came from. Are there classical sources? > Are there modern sources? If so, what are they? >         We have written evidence that Nahuatl as a language has been > creatively adapting to change since the mid 1530s. Today words for car > and bus, for example, differ from microregion to microregion. In > Zacatecas, we work simultaneously with Older and Modern Nahuatl, and > since our vehicle for teaching is the language itself, we are > constantly struggling with ways to express new concepts. This is all > good. The problem is that if you are going to publish a dictionary, you > need to be methodical and explicit about how you put it together. You > need to explain the decisions you had to make in order to arrive at > your final system of "words", definitions, and grammatical terminology. > This is not done in Herrera's work. > John > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 9 13:45:01 2004 From: chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM (chelo dona) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:45:01 -0300 Subject: tociahuiliz Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From budelberger.richard at 9ONLINE.FR Thu Sep 9 03:55:00 2004 From: budelberger.richard at 9ONLINE.FR (Budelberger, Richard) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 05:55:00 +0200 Subject: tociahuiliz Message-ID: 22 fructidor an CCXII (le 9 septembre 2004 d. c.-d. c. g.), 05h51. ---- Message d'origine ---- De : rick dosan À : Envoyé : mercredi 8 septembre 2004 23:54 Objet : tociahuiliz > Tociahuiliz is translated as "nuestra voluntad" (our will) > (Rojas, Vidas y Bienes Olvidados vol.3, p.288, CIESAS, > 2000). But in Simeon, under Ciauiliztli, I find the translation > ""fatigue", not will. Under cializtli, however, I find "Will". In > the text below, is tociahuiliz really "our fatigue", instead of "our will"? > Thanks, Rich > > ...yhuan quimaxiltiliz yn notlatecpan ayac aquin quitlatzonhuiliz > ma caxtiltecatl yn ma teopixqui yn ma altepetl ca huel > tociahuiliz ca huel tonecocol yc otitoxinaxtique yn macihui > quezquintin ychcame... > > ...que nadie la vaya a desbaratar, sea castellano, sea sacerdote > o uno del pueblo, ya que es por nuestra voluntad y no es por > enemistad que venimos a criar cuantas ovejas... > > let nobody destroy (my testament), whether they be Spaniards, > enemistad or priest, or someone from the town, because it's of > our will and not of enmity that we came to breed sheep... CAROCHI ! CAROCHI ! CAROCHI ! Ex-« Wimmer »... : *·.CIYAHUIZTLI:·* ciyahuiztli: Fatigue. Esp., cansacio (M). Angl., fatigue, tiredness (K s ciahuiztli). * *à la forme possédée.·* « _ônêntic in mociyahuiz, in notlatequipanôliz_ », ma fatigue et mon travail se sont révélés vains. Launey Introd 2S2 (exemple emprunté à Carochi). « _in îciyahuiz in îtlahpalihuiz ahtle nênhuetziz_ », de ses fatigues et de ses efforts rien ne sera vain - of her fatigue and effort, nothing would be in vain. Sah4,2. « _in îciyahuiz, in înecohcol_ », sa fatigue et ses peines - his fatigue and pains. Sah4,128. Form. : nom d'action sur ciyahui. *·.CIYALIZTLI:·* ciyaliztli, variantes cealiztli, ceyaliztli. Volonté, désir, consentement. Esp., volundad o acto de querer algo. Molina II 22r. * *à la forme possédée.·* « _têciyaliz_ », volonté, désir de quelqu'un. *« _tociyaliz_ », notre (la) volonté*. « _ciyalizcopa_ », bénévolement, de bon gré, « _mociyalizcopa_ », avec mon consentement. Form : nom d'action sur ciya. Budelberger, Richard. From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Thu Sep 9 18:08:47 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:08:47 +0100 Subject: tociahuiliz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- chelo dona wrote: > La palabra "Fatiga" en castellano antiguo se utiliza mucho como > sinónimo de "trabajo", ... And in UK army language "fatigues" means manual work, and a sort of army work overall. From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Mon Sep 13 12:23:42 2004 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:23:42 -0400 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <413E2961.1070703@cox.net> Message-ID: I have only sporadic access to email right now, so I am coming kind of late to this discussion. Also, I will apologize in advance (although I am writing this after finishing what comes below) for the length of this email. I am in Southern England right now without an umbrella, and it has been raining. And to get from where I am checking my email to wherever else I can go, I would have to get wet. So, rather than do that, I figured I would subject you to some of my perhaps senseless ramblings. :-) I would just point out that the situation of the Nahuatl language makes the issues discussed in this thread very complicated. First, the expression of objects, places, concepts, etc. that did not originate in a Nahuatl context requires some kind of negotiation between Nahuatl, the object or concept, and often the language in which these objects or concepts were originally articulated. Sometimes that means using loan words; other times it may mean coming up with a Nahuatl equivalent; or sometimes a combination of the two. But these negotiations happen naturally in communicative situations between native speakers. Given the fact that there is no official national or international body that makes decisions on what is permitted and what is not for Nahuatl such as is the case for Spanish, this means that for many Nahuatl lexical and grammatical elements, there will probably never be a "standard" to which one can refer. (Of course, even in the case of Spanish and other national langauges, this "standard" is misleading). This may be frustrating for people like us who tend to think in terms of "standard" language; but it probably more accurately reflects the nature of language and language change. It may be that the Nahuatl teacher made up the word tepoztelollotl, but maybe that is the way one community of speakers refers to a train. You can have the same experience with words that are clearly Nahuatl in origin. I learned a colloquial expression from a native Nahuatl speaker; and when I reproduced it for another native speaker from another area, he had no idea what it meant or how it was used. Another thing to keep in mind is that there is a pragmatic dimension to communication that is not captured in dictionaries. Even the native speaker who translated the term literally as "metal corncob" may very well have understood the term to refer metaphorically to a train in a communicative context. Even though this was not a previously encountered metaphor, the pragmatic dimension of the communicative act might have made it clear. With regard to the more general issue of inventing Nahuatl words as opposed to just using loan words: given that Nahuatl is not the official language of a modern nation state that has an interest in standardizing the language, I don't know how you could call this elitist. Although the thing with French is a purist position, purism in Nahuatl isn't necessarily elitist. But I see the general point. For me, the problem here isn't so much that it is elitist as that it is difficult to impose that kind of standard without the institutional power that comes with national languages, formal schooling, etc. Native speakers can certainly invent Nahuatl names for objects and concepts new to the Nahuatl language. But they have to convince the community of speakers to which they belong to accept these new terms. If they do, this means that there will be a lot more variation from one community of speakers to another than in national languages. But it can be frustrating if you get misled into thinking that topoztelollotl is commonly understood as train and it turns out to be one of the pet terms invented by some guy who is trying to impose it on the rest of the Nahuatl speaking and and Nahuatl learning world when in reality most (or perhaps all?) native speakers just use the Spanish word "tren." So, ultimately, any dictionary will have to be either community specific; or if it aspires to be more comprehensive, it will have to give multi-regional listings with the source of each definition. I think this is one of the things that John was saying the dictionary does not do: it doesn't tell you where these definitions come from, if they are specific to a certain community, shared by some or most Nahuatl language communities, or invented specifically for the dictionary itself. I haven't looked at the dictionary, but from what John and some others have said, it seems to me that this is what is so problematic about it: it seems to want to act like a national language dictionary, but Nahuatl is not a national language. The point is not that they can't or shouldn't invent words like Checkoslavakia. Why not? This can be an interesting exercise. Personally, I don't think I would have much use for such a dictionary, but there are people interested in reviving Nahuatl within non-traditional communities and contexts for whom such a dictionary might be useful. But any such dicitonary should be very clear about what it is doing so that people are not misled into thinking that it is some kind of universal, definitive, Nahuatl dicitonary. Of coure in the case of Checkoslavakia, it is probably clear to most people that this word is not one that has come up much in native Nahuatl discourse. But there may be other words that are not so obviously esoteric in daily Nahua life. I guess the point would be that they should be honest about the fact that they are participating in an exercise of linguistic innovation and attempting to set some kind of standard. Then, it would be up to any given linguistic community to adopt or ignore the lexical items proposed. For scholars interested in the language as it is used, for such a dictionary to be useful and in any way authoritative, we would have to wait until these items were actually adopted by some community, or until some revivalist community is created that used them. Galen Quoting micc2 : > Tlazcamati for your words Stephanie, > > I just think that we should be careful of creating words that will > never > be used by the "common folk" It is easy to create words that will > serve no purpose > except to show how adroit a person is at manipulating a language. > > especially when beginners like me are taught these "new words" as > canonical words that imply wide usage, we might end up talking > nonsense > to native speakers who might look at us with bemusement. > > Many years ago a "nahuatl teacher" told me that to say "tren" > (train) > you said: tepuztelollotl. I said this word once to another > Nahuatl > speaker, one who did not > put himself out there as a "maestro" and she said I had just said > " > it is a metal corncob"......hmmmm...... > > > From idiez at MAC.COM Mon Sep 13 14:32:25 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:32:25 -0500 Subject: Nahua revitalization In-Reply-To: <1095078222.4145914e7e121@mail2.buffalo.edu> Message-ID: Galen y demás listeros, There is no official academy of the Nahuatl language, and it's doubtful there ever will be one. Isolation of towns and regions, academic and political factions, and the lack of national interest you mention, are all factors. The geographical isolation of many indigenous towns is a problem. Many times local bosses block road construction in order to perpetuate their local monopoly on everything from orange crops, to livestock, to transportation. Paradoxically, this same isolation is probably one of the important factors that has prevented Nahuatl from disappearing altogether as a Modern Language. However, progress is inevitable: paved roads, television, telephones, and internet are and will be reaching indigenous communities more and more. The problem is how to manage assimilation to modernity while promoting cultural revitalization. For this reason, projects such as ours at IDIEZ and Jonathan Amith's are very important. Jonathan may correct me here, but I think each of us work opposite sides of a fundamental coin. Jonathan concentrates on revitalization of the language within the indigenous community, at the source, so to speak. At IDIEZ, we work with indigenous students who have left their communities in order to go to college. They receive instruction in Nahuatl (both older and modern) at the university level, work as TA's in order to teach their language and culture to mestizo students, and participate in research projects. When these young people graduate and go to work, they will be professionals educated in both Hispanic and Nahua culture (most of them also study English). Hopefully, each of them will in some way contribute to expand the use of Nahuatl within Mexican society. While Jonathan works to strengthen the language and culture within the indigenous community, we work to do so in other sectors of Mexican society. I think that in order for Nahua revitalization to work, both strategies must be implemented. Futhermore, people who work in these kinds of projects need to constantly communicate with each other, in order to try and unify aspects of revitalization which seem to go in opposite directions. For example, one aspect of standardization which can and should be implemented in the future has to do with the orthographic system. At this point everyone seems to fall somewhere along a line connecting two poles: a writing system based on science vs a writing system based on tradition. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Mon Sep 13 15:45:49 2004 From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:45:49 +0200 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary Message-ID: Having an interest in dictionary making, I have been following this discussion with interest. As I understand it, the issue here is the tension between the descriptive and prescriptive functions of a dictionary. Investigators of course are usually more interested in accurate description of how language is actually used, whereas teachers are generally more interested in authoritive affirmations as to how the language should be used and written. There are surely many acceptable ways of resolving this tension in a work such as a dictionary, but Galen's point is well made: "But any such dicitonary should be very clear about what it is doing so that people are not misled". -----Original Message----- From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU [mailto:brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU] Sent: maandag 13 september 2004 14:24 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Hippocrene dictionary I have only sporadic access to email right now, so I am coming kind of late to this discussion. Also, I will apologize in advance (although I am writing this after finishing what comes below) for the length of this email. I am in Southern England right now without an umbrella, and it has been raining. And to get from where I am checking my email to wherever else I can go, I would have to get wet. So, rather than do that, I figured I would subject you to some of my perhaps senseless ramblings. :-) I would just point out that the situation of the Nahuatl language makes the issues discussed in this thread very complicated. First, the expression of objects, places, concepts, etc. that did not originate in a Nahuatl context requires some kind of negotiation between Nahuatl, the object or concept, and often the language in which these objects or concepts were originally articulated. Sometimes that means using loan words; other times it may mean coming up with a Nahuatl equivalent; or sometimes a combination of the two. But these negotiations happen naturally in communicative situations between native speakers. Given the fact that there is no official national or international body that makes decisions on what is permitted and what is not for Nahuatl such as is the case for Spanish, this means that for many Nahuatl lexical and grammatical elements, there will probably never be a "standard" to which one can refer. (Of course, even in the case of Spanish and other national langauges, this "standard" is misleading). This may be frustrating for people like us who tend to think in terms of "standard" language; but it probably more accurately reflects the nature of language and language change. It may be that the Nahuatl teacher made up the word tepoztelollotl, but maybe that is the way one community of speakers refers to a train. You can have the same experience with words that are clearly Nahuatl in origin. I learned a colloquial expression from a native Nahuatl speaker; and when I reproduced it for another native speaker from another area, he had no idea what it meant or how it was used. Another thing to keep in mind is that there is a pragmatic dimension to communication that is not captured in dictionaries. Even the native speaker who translated the term literally as "metal corncob" may very well have understood the term to refer metaphorically to a train in a communicative context. Even though this was not a previously encountered metaphor, the pragmatic dimension of the communicative act might have made it clear. With regard to the more general issue of inventing Nahuatl words as opposed to just using loan words: given that Nahuatl is not the official language of a modern nation state that has an interest in standardizing the language, I don't know how you could call this elitist. Although the thing with French is a purist position, purism in Nahuatl isn't necessarily elitist. But I see the general point. For me, the problem here isn't so much that it is elitist as that it is difficult to impose that kind of standard without the institutional power that comes with national languages, formal schooling, etc. Native speakers can certainly invent Nahuatl names for objects and concepts new to the Nahuatl language. But they have to convince the community of speakers to which they belong to accept these new terms. If they do, this means that there will be a lot more variation from one community of speakers to another than in national languages. But it can be frustrating if you get misled into thinking that topoztelollotl is commonly understood as train and it turns out to be one of the pet terms invented by some guy who is trying to impose it on the rest of the Nahuatl speaking and and Nahuatl learning world when in reality most (or perhaps all?) native speakers just use the Spanish word "tren." So, ultimately, any dictionary will have to be either community specific; or if it aspires to be more comprehensive, it will have to give multi-regional listings with the source of each definition. I think this is one of the things that John was saying the dictionary does not do: it doesn't tell you where these definitions come from, if they are specific to a certain community, shared by some or most Nahuatl language communities, or invented specifically for the dictionary itself. I haven't looked at the dictionary, but from what John and some others have said, it seems to me that this is what is so problematic about it: it seems to want to act like a national language dictionary, but Nahuatl is not a national language. The point is not that they can't or shouldn't invent words like Checkoslavakia. Why not? This can be an interesting exercise. Personally, I don't think I would have much use for such a dictionary, but there are people interested in reviving Nahuatl within non-traditional communities and contexts for whom such a dictionary might be useful. But any such dicitonary should be very clear about what it is doing so that people are not misled into thinking that it is some kind of universal, definitive, Nahuatl dicitonary. Of coure in the case of Checkoslavakia, it is probably clear to most people that this word is not one that has come up much in native Nahuatl discourse. But there may be other words that are not so obviously esoteric in daily Nahua life. I guess the point would be that they should be honest about the fact that they are participating in an exercise of linguistic innovation and attempting to set some kind of standard. Then, it would be up to any given linguistic community to adopt or ignore the lexical items proposed. For scholars interested in the language as it is used, for such a dictionary to be useful and in any way authoritative, we would have to wait until these items were actually adopted by some community, or until some revivalist community is created that used them. Galen Quoting micc2 : > Tlazcamati for your words Stephanie, > > I just think that we should be careful of creating words that will > never > be used by the "common folk" It is easy to create words that will > serve no purpose > except to show how adroit a person is at manipulating a language. > > especially when beginners like me are taught these "new words" as > canonical words that imply wide usage, we might end up talking > nonsense > to native speakers who might look at us with bemusement. > > Many years ago a "nahuatl teacher" told me that to say "tren" > (train) > you said: tepuztelollotl. I said this word once to another > Nahuatl > speaker, one who did not > put himself out there as a "maestro" and she said I had just said > " > it is a metal corncob"......hmmmm...... > > > From no_doyohn at YAHOO.COM Mon Sep 13 16:05:55 2004 From: no_doyohn at YAHOO.COM (Stef) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:05:55 -0700 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <50EA3A4B8EE8D511AD5400508B78651501E40A73@letsxc002.let.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: Indeed Amen I say! "Swanton, M." wrote:Having an interest in dictionary making, I have been following this discussion with interest. As I understand it, the issue here is the tension between the descriptive and prescriptive functions of a dictionary. Investigators of course are usually more interested in accurate description of how language is actually used, whereas teachers are generally more interested in authoritive affirmations as to how the language should be used and written. There are surely many acceptable ways of resolving this tension in a work such as a dictionary, but Galen's point is well made: "But any such dicitonary should be very clear about what it is doing so that people are not misled". -----Original Message----- From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU [mailto:brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU] Sent: maandag 13 september 2004 14:24 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Hippocrene dictionary I have only sporadic access to email right now, so I am coming kind of late to this discussion. Also, I will apologize in advance (although I am writing this after finishing what comes below) for the length of this email. I am in Southern England right now without an umbrella, and it has been raining. And to get from where I am checking my email to wherever else I can go, I would have to get wet. So, rather than do that, I figured I would subject you to some of my perhaps senseless ramblings. :-) I would just point out that the situation of the Nahuatl language makes the issues discussed in this thread very complicated. First, the expression of objects, places, concepts, etc. that did not originate in a Nahuatl context requires some kind of negotiation between Nahuatl, the object or concept, and often the language in which these objects or concepts were originally articulated. Sometimes that means using loan words; other times it may mean coming up with a Nahuatl equivalent; or sometimes a combination of the two. But these negotiations happen naturally in communicative situations between native speakers. Given the fact that there is no official national or international body that makes decisions on what is permitted and what is not for Nahuatl such as is the case for Spanish, this means that for many Nahuatl lexical and grammatical elements, there will probably never be a "standard" to which one can refer. (Of course, even in the case of Spanish and other national langauges, this "standard" is misleading). This may be frustrating for people like us who tend to think in terms of "standard" language; but it probably more accurately reflects the nature of language and language change. It may be that the Nahuatl teacher made up the word tepoztelollotl, but maybe that is the way one community of speakers refers to a train. You can have the same experience with words that are clearly Nahuatl in origin. I learned a colloquial expression from a native Nahuatl speaker; and when I reproduced it for another native speaker from another area, he had no idea what it meant or how it was used. Another thing to keep in mind is that there is a pragmatic dimension to communication that is not captured in dictionaries. Even the native speaker who translated the term literally as "metal corncob" may very well have understood the term to refer metaphorically to a train in a communicative context. Even though this was not a previously encountered metaphor, the pragmatic dimension of the communicative act might have made it clear. With regard to the more general issue of inventing Nahuatl words as opposed to just using loan words: given that Nahuatl is not the official language of a modern nation state that has an interest in standardizing the language, I don't know how you could call this elitist. Although the thing with French is a purist position, purism in Nahuatl isn't necessarily elitist. But I see the general point. For me, the problem here isn't so much that it is elitist as that it is difficult to impose that kind of standard without the institutional power that comes with national languages, formal schooling, etc. Native speakers can certainly invent Nahuatl names for objects and concepts new to the Nahuatl language. But they have to convince the community of speakers to which they belong to accept these new terms. If they do, this means that there will be a lot more variation from one community of speakers to another than in national languages. But it can be frustrating if you get misled into thinking that topoztelollotl is commonly understood as train and it turns out to be one of the pet terms invented by some guy who is trying to impose it on the rest of the Nahuatl speaking and and Nahuatl learning world when in reality most (or perhaps all?) native speakers just use the Spanish word "tren." So, ultimately, any dictionary will have to be either community specific; or if it aspires to be more comprehensive, it will have to give multi-regional listings with the source of each definition. I think this is one of the things that John was saying the dictionary does not do: it doesn't tell you where these definitions come from, if they are specific to a certain community, shared by some or most Nahuatl language communities, or invented specifically for the dictionary itself. I haven't looked at the dictionary, but from what John and some others have said, it seems to me that this is what is so problematic about it: it seems to want to act like a national language dictionary, but Nahuatl is not a national language. The point is not that they can't or shouldn't invent words like Checkoslavakia. Why not? This can be an interesting exercise. Personally, I don't think I would have much use for such a dictionary, but there are people interested in reviving Nahuatl within non-traditional communities and contexts for whom such a dictionary might be useful. But any such dicitonary should be very clear about what it is doing so that people are not misled into thinking that it is some kind of universal, definitive, Nahuatl dicitonary. Of coure in the case of Checkoslavakia, it is probably clear to most people that this word is not one that has come up much in native Nahuatl discourse. But there may be other words that are not so obviously esoteric in daily Nahua life. I guess the point would be that they should be honest about the fact that they are participating in an exercise of linguistic innovation and attempting to set some kind of standard. Then, it would be up to any given linguistic community to adopt or ignore the lexical items proposed. For scholars interested in the language as it is used, for such a dictionary to be useful and in any way authoritative, we would have to wait until these items were actually adopted by some community, or until some revivalist community is created that used them. Galen Quoting micc2 : > Tlazcamati for your words Stephanie, > > I just think that we should be careful of creating words that will > never > be used by the "common folk" It is easy to create words that will > serve no purpose > except to show how adroit a person is at manipulating a language. > > especially when beginners like me are taught these "new words" as > canonical words that imply wide usage, we might end up talking > nonsense > to native speakers who might look at us with bemusement. > > Many years ago a "nahuatl teacher" told me that to say "tren" > (train) > you said: tepuztelollotl. I said this word once to another > Nahuatl > speaker, one who did not > put himself out there as a "maestro" and she said I had just said > " > it is a metal corncob"......hmmmm...... > > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue Sep 14 13:47:25 2004 From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 15:47:25 +0200 Subject: Nahua revitalization Message-ID: You sound unduly pessimistic. There exists an Academy of the Mixtec Language (Ve'e Tu'un Savi) which has been quite successful at organizing despiting geographical isolation. -----Original Message----- From: idiez at MAC.COM [mailto:idiez at MAC.COM] Sent: maandag 13 september 2004 16:32 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Nahua revitalization Galen y demás listeros, There is no official academy of the Nahuatl language, and it's doubtful there ever will be one. Isolation of towns and regions, academic and political factions, and the lack of national interest you mention, are all factors. The geographical isolation of many indigenous towns is a problem. Many times local bosses block road construction in order to perpetuate their local monopoly on everything from orange crops, to livestock, to transportation. Paradoxically, this same isolation is probably one of the important factors that has prevented Nahuatl from disappearing altogether as a Modern Language. However, progress is inevitable: paved roads, television, telephones, and internet are and will be reaching indigenous communities more and more. The problem is how to manage assimilation to modernity while promoting cultural revitalization. For this reason, projects such as ours at IDIEZ and Jonathan Amith's are very important. Jonathan may correct me here, but I think each of us work opposite sides of a fundamental coin. Jonathan concentrates on revitalization of the language within the indigenous community, at the source, so to speak. At IDIEZ, we work with indigenous students who have left their communities in order to go to college. They receive instruction in Nahuatl (both older and modern) at the university level, work as TA's in order to teach their language and culture to mestizo students, and participate in research projects. When these young people graduate and go to work, they will be professionals educated in both Hispanic and Nahua culture (most of them also study English). Hopefully, each of them will in some way contribute to expand the use of Nahuatl within Mexican society. While Jonathan works to strengthen the language and culture within the indigenous community, we work to do so in other sectors of Mexican society. I think that in order for Nahua revitalization to work, both strategies must be implemented. Futhermore, people who work in these kinds of projects need to constantly communicate with each other, in order to try and unify aspects of revitalization which seem to go in opposite directions. For example, one aspect of standardization which can and should be implemented in the future has to do with the orthographic system. At this point everyone seems to fall somewhere along a line connecting two poles: a writing system based on science vs a writing system based on tradition. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From pkurtboke at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 14 23:38:17 2004 From: pkurtboke at HOTMAIL.COM (petek kurtboke) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:38:17 +0000 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micc2 at COX.NET Wed Sep 15 05:13:41 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:13:41 -0700 Subject: Altar?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ceyo tlahtlanilli: In the Huasteca Nahuatlaca I heard the word "tlaixpan" used for "altar" I think this means "in front of something' based on Frances' dictionary. Can anyone please tell me what the Spanish contact era word for altar was? tlazohca:mati!!! ....or for my friends from Tepecxitla, Ver: tlazcamati! mario www.mexicayotl.org > From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Wed Sep 15 05:27:48 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 00:27:48 -0500 Subject: Altar?? In-Reply-To: <4147CF85.9020403@cox.net> Message-ID: The Spanish borrowing was certainly used: altar It also showed up in phrases: altar iixquen frontal de altar altar iixtlapachiuhca frontal de altar Momoztli was also used (small mound, pyramid) momozco on a mound, on an altar also: tlalmomoztli (Molina comments that momoztli were placed along the roads; "altar de demonios") Saludos, Joe On Tue, 14 Sep 2004, micc2 wrote: > ceyo tlahtlanilli: > > In the Huasteca Nahuatlaca I heard the word "tlaixpan" used for > "altar" I think this means "in front of something' based on Frances' > dictionary. > Can anyone please tell me what the Spanish contact era word for altar was? > > tlazohca:mati!!! ....or for my friends from Tepecxitla, Ver: tlazcamati! > > mario > www.mexicayotl.org > > > > > > From micc2 at COX.NET Wed Sep 15 05:33:37 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:33:37 -0700 Subject: Altar?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks! I found "mumuztli in Molina (si los altares de los demonios), but I could not find anything in Frances" dictionary that looked like this. I am assuming that since then long o was written many times as a "u" the word was mo:mo:ztli. thanks for the quick reply!!!! r. joe campbell wrote: > The Spanish borrowing was certainly used: altar > >It also showed up in phrases: > > altar iixquen frontal de altar > altar iixtlapachiuhca frontal de altar > >Momoztli was also used (small mound, pyramid) > momozco on a mound, on an altar > >also: tlalmomoztli > > (Molina comments that momoztli were placed along the roads; > "altar de demonios") > >Saludos, > >Joe > > >On Tue, 14 Sep 2004, micc2 wrote: > > > >> ceyo tlahtlanilli: >> >>In the Huasteca Nahuatlaca I heard the word "tlaixpan" used for >>"altar" I think this means "in front of something' based on Frances' >>dictionary. >>Can anyone please tell me what the Spanish contact era word for altar was? >> >>tlazohca:mati!!! ....or for my friends from Tepecxitla, Ver: tlazcamati! >> >>mario >>www.mexicayotl.org >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Wed Sep 15 13:25:48 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:25:48 -0500 Subject: Altar?? In-Reply-To: <4147D431.1060400@cox.net> Message-ID: At 12:33 AM 9/15/2004, you wrote: >Thanks! > >I found "mumuztli in Molina (si los altares de los demonios), but I could >not find anything in Frances" dictionary that looked like this. Guilhem Olivier in his new book _Mockeries and Metamorphoses of an Aztec God: Tezcatlipoca_ has a relatively long discussion of the "momoztli" 172 - 182, et passim. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From idiez at MAC.COM Wed Sep 15 14:46:35 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:46:35 -0500 Subject: o/u Message-ID: Is there an explanation about when the "o" is pronounced with a "u" sound? Mario just mentioned that it is for long "o"s, but I know from experience that this is not so. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 16 22:08:13 2004 From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:08:13 -0400 Subject: o/u In-Reply-To: <0AC4FAFF-0726-11D9-B0EE-003065C46A4A@mac.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:46:35 -0500, idiez at mac.com wrote: > Is there an explanation about when the "o" is pronounced with a "u" > sound? Mario just mentioned that it is for long "o"s, but I know from > experience that this is not so. I was pondering over this not more than a day before you posted the question. Two examples I can think of, right off the top of my head, are: cal-po:l(-li) => cal-pu:l(-li), and teo:(-tl) => teu:(-tl). In both of these cases the long o becomes u, although I'm not sure as to whether the length is preserved. This is, of course, not to say that long o always becomes u. I had once read that stress played some part in the change. But, since the stress differs in the two examples above and the vowel change still occurs, I'm not convinced that theory holds water. Does anyone else have any ideas? -Geoff P.S. I have read that this resulting u is a lax high or mid-high back vowel, much like the "oo" in English "book." Can anyone confirm or deny this with certainty? From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Sep 16 22:18:16 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:18:16 -0500 Subject: o/u In-Reply-To: <990456820409161508104315c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I bleeve these are dialectal variants, no? On Thu, 16 Sep 2004, Geoff Davis wrote: > On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:46:35 -0500, idiez at mac.com wrote: > > Is there an explanation about when the "o" is pronounced with a "u" > > sound? Mario just mentioned that it is for long "o"s, but I know from > > experience that this is not so. > > I was pondering over this not more than a day before you posted the > question. > > Two examples I can think of, right off the top of my head, are: > cal-po:l(-li) => cal-pu:l(-li), and > teo:(-tl) => teu:(-tl). > > In both of these cases the long o becomes u, although I'm not > sure as to whether the length is preserved. > > This is, of course, not to say that long o always becomes u. I had > once read that stress played some part in the change. But, since > the stress differs in the two examples above and the vowel change > still occurs, I'm not convinced that theory holds water. > > Does anyone else have any ideas? > > -Geoff > > P.S. I have read that this resulting u is a lax high or mid-high back > vowel, much like the "oo" in English "book." Can anyone confirm or > deny this with certainty? > > > From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Fri Sep 17 01:41:24 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:41:24 -0400 Subject: o/u In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't think they are dialectal differences. Nor do I think the orthographic variation reflects pronunciation or phonological "change." The correspondence of long /o:/ to orthographic u doesn't hold up. A number of people have compiled extensive lists of attested u for /o:, o/ and found no predictable pattern. It doesn't correlate with length or with stress. So far as I can tell, the situation is simply that Spanish has two rounded back vowels, /o/ and /u/, that contrast in point of articulation, whereas Nahuatl has two rounded back vowels that contrast in length. For Nahuatl, point of articulation for a back rounded vowel isn't salient, so it can be all over the map, so to speak. Ears attuned to Spanish sometimes hear u and other times o, but it's all the same to native speakers of Nahuatl. Hence the randomness of the orthography. We need to beware of identifying a language point-by-point with the symbols used for representing it. A grad student from Finland once told me that after just a semester in Bloomington, Indiana, he had made such progress with English that he could not only hear but also produce the distinction between "right" and "write"!!!! On Sep 16, 2004, at 6:18 PM, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > I bleeve these are dialectal variants, no? > > > > On Thu, 16 Sep 2004, Geoff Davis wrote: > >> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:46:35 -0500, idiez at mac.com >> wrote: >>> Is there an explanation about when the "o" is pronounced with a "u" >>> sound? Mario just mentioned that it is for long "o"s, but I know from >>> experience that this is not so. >> >> I was pondering over this not more than a day before you posted the >> question. >> >> Two examples I can think of, right off the top of my head, are: >> cal-po:l(-li) => cal-pu:l(-li), and >> teo:(-tl) => teu:(-tl). >> >> In both of these cases the long o becomes u, although I'm not >> sure as to whether the length is preserved. >> >> This is, of course, not to say that long o always becomes u. I had >> once read that stress played some part in the change. But, since >> the stress differs in the two examples above and the vowel change >> still occurs, I'm not convinced that theory holds water. >> >> Does anyone else have any ideas? >> >> -Geoff >> >> P.S. I have read that this resulting u is a lax high or mid-high back >> vowel, much like the "oo" in English "book." Can anyone confirm or >> deny this with certainty? >> >> >> > From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Sep 17 03:07:14 2004 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:07:14 -0400 Subject: metal corncob Message-ID: Is tren Spanglish for a train or the other way around? I’m attaching what appears to be an example of a Spanglish picture writing neologism. It’s apparently since 1940 and in English language contexts that an airplane can stand for Geronimo, but on the other hand the presence of the bear suggests a trip to Madrid, with el oso y el madroño and Geronimo Bosco pictures with strawberries, since there’s also strawberry flavored Bosco, plus a mysterious “blue berry” flavor. Another source might be Sue Bee (honey). In case the picture doesn’t work on all computers, it’s a picture of a bottle of Bosco chocolate syrup, also visible at www.boscoworld.com. Susan Gilchrist -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: bosco.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11024 bytes Desc: bosco.jpg URL: From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM Fri Sep 17 09:40:46 2004 From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:40:46 +0200 Subject: Wolf's dictionary Message-ID: Y a proposito de diccionarios. Acabo de estar en Mexico, en el Instituto de Investigaciones Historicas de la UNAM (fui a comprar el libro de gramatica Nahuatl de Thelma Sullivan y el maravilloso libro de De Olmos) y vi en la vitrina un diccionario espanol-nahuatl escrito por un tal "Wolf". Serà que soy ignorante, pero nunca habia oido hablar de este senor. Alguien podria esclarecerme quien es y que opinan de su obra??? Gracias, Susana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davius_sanctex at TERRA.ES Fri Sep 17 11:07:48 2004 From: davius_sanctex at TERRA.ES (Davius Sanctex) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:07:48 +0200 Subject: o/u Message-ID: [Frances] A number of people have compiled extensive lists of attested u for /o:, o/ and found no predictable pattern. It doesn't correlate with length or with stress. ------ [Davius] What about a statistical pattern, it seems that spelling < u > is more frequent following labial or labio-velar consonants /p, kW/. Another question, what about the alternances /i, e/ in Nahuatl loanwords to Spanish? Is this a problem of the same type? From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri Sep 17 11:17:41 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:17:41 -0500 Subject: o/u In-Reply-To: <001901c49ca6$914292e0$c2aa5393@upcxxi.upc.es> Message-ID: I think you're on to something. Joe Campbell and I were discussing this problem last night and phonetic environment did come up. Michael On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, Davius Sanctex wrote: > [Frances] A number of people have compiled extensive lists of attested u for > /o:, o/ and found no predictable pattern. It doesn't correlate with length > or with stress. > ------ > [Davius] What about a statistical pattern, it seems that spelling < u > is > more frequent following labial or labio-velar consonants /p, kW/. Another > question, what about the alternances /i, e/ in Nahuatl loanwords to Spanish? > Is this a problem of the same type? > > > From dfrye at UMICH.EDU Fri Sep 17 12:37:44 2004 From: dfrye at UMICH.EDU (Frye, David L) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:37:44 -0400 Subject: o/u Message-ID: Well over 100 years ago Franz Boaz wrote an article, "On Alternating Sounds," that dealt with this issue (the language he dealt with was Inuit, I think, but the principle is the same). Ears that are trained to hear the distinction between Spanish o and u, but not trained to pick out the Nahuatl o and o: sounds, will sometimes hear the Nahuatl vowel as Spanish o and sometimes as Spanish u. The distinction between the two tells us something about the listener, but not about Nahuatl. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Fri Sep 17 13:13:46 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:13:46 -0400 Subject: o/u In-Reply-To: <001901c49ca6$914292e0$c2aa5393@upcxxi.upc.es> Message-ID: On Sep 17, 2004, at 7:07 AM, Davius Sanctex wrote: > [Frances] A number of people have compiled extensive lists of attested > u for > /o:, o/ and found no predictable pattern. It doesn't correlate with > length > or with stress. > ------ > [Davius] What about a statistical pattern, it seems that spelling < u > > is > more frequent following labial or labio-velar consonants /p, kW/. > Another > question, what about the alternances /i, e/ in Nahuatl loanwords to > Spanish? > Is this a problem of the same type? > The alternation of i/e is a different phenomenon. For one thing, within Nahuatl itself this process is definitely phonological, not orthographic. Nahuatl has distinct front unrounded vowels /i/ and /e/ (both long and short). All short front vowels (including /a/), however, have a tendency to drift upwards toward /i/ and thence to nothing at all. Lockhart discusses this at some length under the rubric of "weakening." Nahuatl's characteristic /tl/ (a unitary consonant, not a consonant cluster) derives historically from *t before the vowel *a. That's why tle- 'fire,' tloh- 'hawk,' tli:l- '(black) ink, soot,' and -tloc 'close to' are exceptional and rather problematic for reconstruction. Otherwise, you will notice that syllable-initial tl precedes a, except in the absolutive suffix -tli/-tl. In the case of the suffix, the historical *a has drifted all the way to /i/ and thence has disappeared entirely providing that there is a stem vowel to the left of the tl. Stem-internally there's plenty of drift of e > i, providing variants such as tletl/tlitl 'fire,' etc. This drift is more pronounced in some geographical dialects than in others. Frances From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri Sep 17 17:24:15 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:24:15 -0500 Subject: o/u In-Reply-To: <71F249219F2E3845B88BE93BEC6DA4FB028B69CA@lsa-m2.lsa.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: Yes, this also occurs in Algonquian, where, for example, in Miami-Illinois [o] and [u] are the same phoneme and [o:] and [u:] are the same phoneme. Michael On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, Frye, David L wrote: > Well over 100 years ago Franz Boaz wrote an article, "On Alternating Sounds," that dealt with this issue (the language he dealt with was Inuit, I think, but the principle is the same). Ears that are trained to hear the distinction between Spanish o and u, but not trained to pick out the Nahuatl o and o: sounds, will sometimes hear the Nahuatl vowel as Spanish o and sometimes as Spanish u. The distinction between the two tells us something about the listener, but not about Nahuatl. > > > > > > From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 17 19:04:19 2004 From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:04:19 -0400 Subject: o/u In-Reply-To: <684E58E2-08AB-11D9-97D6-000D93B10E22@nantucket.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:13:46 -0400, Frances Karttunen wrote: > Nahuatl has distinct front unrounded vowels /i/ and /e/ (both long and > short). All short front vowels (including /a/), however, have a > tendency to drift upwards toward /i/ and thence to nothing at all. > Lockhart discusses this at some length under the rubric of "weakening." Perhaps yourself or someone else on the list could clarify this piece for me. First allow me to post a link: http://www.sil.org/americas/mexico/nahuatl/21i-VowelsNah.htm This page states (and illustrates using pictures) that /i/ and /e/ are front vowels and /a/ and /o/ are back vowels in classical Nahuatl, and shows that height is a distinguishing feature. This hadn't raised a red flag for me, until now, since I've read this in other sources as well. I've known that Spanish vowels are not correct, but I had thought this system, illustrated at the above web URL, was essentially correct. So, for me, it comes down to this: What are the "official" phonological descriptions of /a/, /e/, /i/, and /o/ for classical Nahuatl? -Geoff From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue Sep 21 16:29:15 2004 From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:29:15 +0200 Subject: o/u Message-ID: Back in 1962 Gunter Zimmermann and Hansjakob Seiler wrote an article in the IJAL on "orthographic variation o/u" using Molina and Gaona as a corpus. Apparently Zimmermann worked through all of these two works and examined where and appeared. In some environments there was never any variation and only appeared (such as at the end of words or before a ), in others there could be alternation between and . If I understand them correctly, they found that often appears before a continuant (for example before , vexutl; amuxtli; muchihua...). There also seems to be some conditioning by labials. It too bad that they didn't take vowel length or accent into account in their analysis. I do find the Germans' data suggestive that the orthographic in Classical Nahuatl might be representing allophonic variations of /o/ and /o:/. How does this resonate with modern forms of Nahuatl? -----Original Message----- From: idiez at MAC.COM [mailto:idiez at MAC.COM] Sent: woensdag 15 september 2004 16:47 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: o/u Is there an explanation about when the "o" is pronounced with a "u" sound? Mario just mentioned that it is for long "o"s, but I know from experience that this is not so. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From HJVsqzIMIS at AOL.COM Thu Sep 23 18:02:30 2004 From: HJVsqzIMIS at AOL.COM (HJVsqzIMIS at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:02:30 EDT Subject: Registration Cal Indian Conf. 2004 Message-ID: Greetings, In case any of you had wanted to attend, but were not able to register for the California Indian Conference to be held in Hesperia Oct. 1-3, 2004. Here is a registration form taken from Dr. LaMay's website. (drlamay.com). I suspect maybe cultural events will take place on Friday. I haven't read all of the information on the website yet. Many blessings, Henry Vasquez ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------ Registration (Please print this form and mail to address below)    California Indian Conference 2004 Four Directions Institute Pre-registration Form Name as you wish it to appear on your name tag:   _________________________________ Address: _____________________________City_______________State____ZIP________ Telephone (h) _________________(o)__________________e-mail ____________________ Fax _____________ Institution  _____________________ Tribal Affiliation ____________ Please help us plan the conference.  I will require :  Hotel ___  Airline ___  Rental Car __ The registration fee covers both Saturday, October 2 and Sunday, October 3.    All registration is $30.00 per person for one day or two. Booth space is $40.00, which includes both Saturday and Sunday.  Please fill out a separate pre-registration form for each person attending. Make checks payable to: California Indian Conference     Mail to:     Registration   Dr. LaMay      P.O. Box 400385   Hesperia CA 92340 http://drlamay.com/California%20Indian%20Conference.htm From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Fri Sep 24 20:03:38 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:03:38 -0600 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: IIRC, there was a major article on Uto-Aztecan historical linguistics that was published within the last 2 years (perhaps by one of our own here) that argued for a more southern location of the U-A homeland. Does this ring a bell with anyone who knows the name of the article or in which journal it was published. Richley From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Fri Sep 24 20:37:02 2004 From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 22:37:02 +0200 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: I believe you are referring to Jane Hill's hypothesis. One version of it was published in the 2001 American Anthropologist (vol. 103: 913-34). This was discussed more recently in a volume edited by Peter Bellwood and Colin Renfrew "Examining the farming/language dispersal hypothesis" published by the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research. -----Original Message----- From: Richley Crapo [mailto:RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU] Sent: vrijdag 24 september 2004 22:04 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland IIRC, there was a major article on Uto-Aztecan historical linguistics that was published within the last 2 years (perhaps by one of our own here) that argued for a more southern location of the U-A homeland. Does this ring a bell with anyone who knows the name of the article or in which journal it was published. Richley From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Fri Sep 24 20:54:53 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:54:53 -0600 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: That's it! Thanks. Richley >>> M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL 09/24/04 02:37PM >>> I believe you are referring to Jane Hill's hypothesis. One version of it was published in the 2001 American Anthropologist (vol. 103: 913-34). This was discussed more recently in a volume edited by Peter Bellwood and Colin Renfrew "Examining the farming/language dispersal hypothesis" published by the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research. -----Original Message----- From: Richley Crapo [mailto:RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU] Sent: vrijdag 24 september 2004 22:04 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland IIRC, there was a major article on Uto-Aztecan historical linguistics that was published within the last 2 years (perhaps by one of our own here) that argued for a more southern location of the U-A homeland. Does this ring a bell with anyone who knows the name of the article or in which journal it was published. Richley From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Sat Sep 25 21:46:25 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:46:25 -0500 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland In-Reply-To: <50EA3A4B8EE8D511AD5400508B78651501E40AA6@letsxc002.let.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: What is the gist of her hypothesis? Or can it be succintly gisted? Michael On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Swanton, M. wrote: > I believe you are referring to Jane Hill's hypothesis. One version of it > was published in the 2001 American Anthropologist (vol. 103: 913-34). This > was discussed more recently in a volume edited by Peter Bellwood and Colin > Renfrew "Examining the farming/language dispersal hypothesis" published by > the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richley Crapo [mailto:RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU] > Sent: vrijdag 24 september 2004 22:04 > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland > > > IIRC, there was a major article on Uto-Aztecan historical linguistics that > was published within the last 2 years (perhaps by one of our own here) that > argued for a more southern location of the U-A homeland. Does this ring a > bell with anyone who knows the name of the article or in which journal it > was published. > Richley > > > From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU Sat Sep 25 22:20:47 2004 From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:20:47 -0600 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: >>> mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU 09/25/04 15:47 PM >>> What is the gist of her hypothesis? Or can it be succintly gisted? Michael ------ [Richley] And how was her position received by others in the Bellwood and Renfrew work? (I know she was generally supporting Bellwood, so was this just a volume of like-minded authors or did it include other perspectives that might not have accepted Hill's proposal?) Is it your sense that her's will become the dominant viewpoint and replace the Northern origin perspective? On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Swanton, M. wrote: > I believe you are referring to Jane Hill's hypothesis. One version of it > was published in the 2001 American Anthropologist (vol. 103: 913-34). This > was discussed more recently in a volume edited by Peter Bellwood and Colin > Renfrew "Examining the farming/language dispersal hypothesis" published by > the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richley Crapo [mailto:RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU] > Sent: vrijdag 24 september 2004 22:04 > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland > > > IIRC, there was a major article on Uto-Aztecan historical linguistics that > was published within the last 2 years (perhaps by one of our own here) that > argued for a more southern location of the U-A homeland. Does this ring a > bell with anyone who knows the name of the article or in which journal it > was published. > Richley > > > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Sun Sep 26 12:18:38 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 07:18:38 -0500 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was just asking. I don't know anything about it. :-) On Sat, 25 Sep 2004, Richley Crapo wrote: > >>> mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU 09/25/04 15:47 PM >>> > What is the gist of her hypothesis? Or can it be succintly gisted? > Michael > ------ > [Richley] > And how was her position received by others in the Bellwood and Renfrew work? (I know she was generally supporting Bellwood, so was this just a volume of like-minded authors or did it include other perspectives that might not have accepted Hill's proposal?) Is it your sense that her's will become the dominant viewpoint and replace the Northern origin perspective? > > > On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Swanton, M. wrote: > > > I believe you are referring to Jane Hill's hypothesis. One version of it > > was published in the 2001 American Anthropologist (vol. 103: 913-34). This > > was discussed more recently in a volume edited by Peter Bellwood and Colin > > Renfrew "Examining the farming/language dispersal hypothesis" published by > > the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richley Crapo [mailto:RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU] > > Sent: vrijdag 24 september 2004 22:04 > > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > > Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland > > > > > > IIRC, there was a major article on Uto-Aztecan historical linguistics that > > was published within the last 2 years (perhaps by one of our own here) that > > argued for a more southern location of the U-A homeland. Does this ring a > > bell with anyone who knows the name of the article or in which journal it > > was published. > > Richley > > > > > > > > > From cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Sep 26 17:57:29 2004 From: cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET (Joanna M. Sanchez) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 13:57:29 -0400 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: Hill's hypothesis is based on reconsideration of models for language spread, taking into consideration several factors likely to have prevailed for community of early maize cultivators. She has reconstructed a maize complex vocabulary for proto UA (Hopi vocabulary items, including terms for water management technologies), especially northern PUA (PNUA), to assert northward movement of early cultivators from Western Mesoamerica: "If NUA is a valid genetic unit... then the identification of cultivation vocabulary cognate to that in the southern languages in any NUA langauge attests to the presence of cultivation in PNUA and hence in PUA itself." Her analysis and supports Bellwood's argument for southern UA origins; Hill argues that ProtoUA formed between 5600BP (maize domestication) and 4500BP (village settlement), expanded by rapid migration of primary cultivators due to demic pressures by 'leapfrogging' to suitable cultuvation environments, which resulted in rake-like genetic structure of UA. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mccafferty" To: Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Uto-Aztecan Homeland > What is the gist of her hypothesis? Or can it be succintly gisted? > > Michael > > > > On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Swanton, M. wrote: > > > I believe you are referring to Jane Hill's hypothesis. One version of it > > was published in the 2001 American Anthropologist (vol. 103: 913-34). This > > was discussed more recently in a volume edited by Peter Bellwood and Colin > > Renfrew "Examining the farming/language dispersal hypothesis" published by > > the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richley Crapo [mailto:RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU] > > Sent: vrijdag 24 september 2004 22:04 > > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > > Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland > > > > > > IIRC, there was a major article on Uto-Aztecan historical linguistics that > > was published within the last 2 years (perhaps by one of our own here) that > > argued for a more southern location of the U-A homeland. Does this ring a > > bell with anyone who knows the name of the article or in which journal it > > was published. > > Richley > > > > > > > From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU Sun Sep 26 18:48:28 2004 From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 12:48:28 -0600 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: What's your assessment of how widely she's been accepted? Richley >>> cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET 09/26/04 11:46 AM >>> Hill's hypothesis is based on reconsideration of models for language spread, taking into consideration several factors likely to have prevailed for community of early maize cultivators. From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Sep 29 10:38:00 2004 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:38:00 -0400 Subject: cuauh=bosque? Message-ID: Still trying to untangle how the name Hieronymus Bosch turned into Geronimo Bosco and El Bosco in Spain. According to my interpretation of El Jardín de las Delicias (which I'm calling La Bariedad del Mundo following an old inventory), a person in the center is Cuauhtémoc, since the mini-scene represents the year 7-Calli (ld 7-house.jpg). The 7 is shown by someone (I suppose Cortes) poking 7 fingers at him, and the jar is a house by analogy to pictures of Diogenes who lived in a barrel. The bird with human feet underneath is an eccentric version of the name glyph (cuauhtemoc.jpg). But there seem to be all kinds of contexts where cuauh has something to do with trees or wood or a forest. Is there any connection to the name Cuauhtémoc? Is there another glyph besides the eagle that could represent cuauh in the sense of wood or trees? In other words I wonder if there's any sign in the detail from the painting (ld 7-house.jpg) that the artist knew that cuauh could also mean wood or trees. It would imply that someone was explaining more than just glyphs for 1-acatl to 10-tecpatl, a personal name, and a couple of place names, maybe showing how picture writing can distinguish between words that sound the same? Susan Gilchrist -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ld 7-house.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 119477 bytes Desc: ld 7-house.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cuauhtemoc.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 41477 bytes Desc: cuauhtemoc.jpg URL: From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Sep 29 11:04:27 2004 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:04:27 -0400 Subject: cuauh=bosque? (fixed attachment that wouldn't open) Message-ID: I'm sorry, one of the attachments on the previous e-mail was saved incorrectly. (It was a psd with a jpeg suffix.) Sending a re-saved version titled cuauhtemoc glyph.jpg so they don't get mixed up. Susan Gilchrist -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cuauhtemoc glyph.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24592 bytes Desc: cuauhtemoc glyph.jpg URL: From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Wed Sep 29 13:25:48 2004 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:25:48 -0400 Subject: cuauh=bosque? Message-ID: Susan, I'm not sure I understand your question, and I have no idea how that image of the painting relates to what you are talking about. But as you probably know the word for eagle is cua:uhtli and the word for wood or tree is cuahuitl. So "cuauh" can mean "bosque." When you use the roots of these words in combination with something else they become "cua:uh" and "cuauh". So if you don't distinguish orthographically between vowel length, there is no difference between the two. There is a glyph used to represent "tree" or "forest," which consists of a tree. The very well known place glpyh for Cuauhnahuac ("place near trees or forest"), for example, is a tree with a mouth out of which issues a speech volute. The "cuauh" of course is for cuahuitl and the mouth and speech volute is a rebus element that puns on the relationship between "nahuac" which means "near" and "nahuatl" meaning "clear speech." And the name glyph of the eagle facing down refers to the meaning of Cuauhtemoc as "descending eagle" from the combination of "cua:uhtli" and the verb "temo" which means to descend. So, anyway, the wood glyph would theoretically be available as a rebus pun on "cua:uhtli", but there wouldn't really seem to be a need to use it that way, because it would be just as easy to draw an eagle. I'm not aware of any glyphs that use the wood glyph in this way, and I wouldn't expect to find any. But I haven't studied such glyphs in any kind of extensively systematic way, so I can't say for sure. Hope this helps. Galen sfargo at earthlink.net wrote: > Still trying to untangle how the name Hieronymus Bosch turned > into Geronimo Bosco and El Bosco in Spain. > > According to my interpretation of El Jardín de las Delicias (which > I'm calling La Bariedad del Mundo following an old inventory), a > person in the center is Cuauhtémoc, since the mini-scene > represents the year 7-Calli (ld 7-house.jpg). The 7 is shown by > someone (I suppose Cortes) poking 7 fingers at him, and the > jar is a house by analogy to pictures of Diogenes who lived in > a barrel. The bird with human feet underneath is an eccentric > version of the name glyph (cuauhtemoc.jpg). > > But there seem to be all kinds of contexts where cuauh has > something to do with trees or wood or a forest. Is there any > connection to the name Cuauhtémoc? Is there another glyph > besides the eagle that could represent cuauh in the sense of > wood or trees? > > In other words I wonder if there's any sign in the detail from the > painting (ld 7-house.jpg) that the artist knew that cuauh could > also mean wood or trees. It would imply that someone was > explaining more than just glyphs for 1-acatl to 10-tecpatl, a > personal name, and a couple of place names, maybe showing > how picture writing can distinguish between words that sound > the same? > Susan Gilchrist > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 30 01:21:17 2004 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:21:17 -0400 Subject: cuauh=bosque? - Cuauhnahuac Message-ID: Thank you. I need to spend more time looking at place name glyphs. Looking again at the detail in the painting that seems to be an imitation of one in the Vienna Codex, it looks as though when I cut off the tree to make a detail photo I may have been cutting off part of the glyph. There's actually a logical reason not to draw an eagle, which is that European artists often didn't distinguish eagles from pelicans, at least in emblems and emblem- like paintings. There's an example of a pelican that looks like an eagle in a mural at Malinalco, copied from some European prototype. There's another detail in the painting that I've just noticed might relate to "falling wood." The drawings by Cristophe Weiditz of Indians in Spain include three of a person juggling a wood block with his feet. (The caption specifies that it's a wood block.) He's throwing it up in the air and catching it, and if he didn't catch it he would be hit by the falling wood. In the painted triptych, there's a person holding up a bird or with a bird that just landed on his foot, in what looks like a less hazardous version of the same game. So it looks as though there's a pun in there somewhere, maybe instigated by a Nahuatl speaker? (cuauh temoc jugglers.jpg) Substituting a bird for the wood might have been an embellishment by the European artist, who tended to overdo things and make everything complicated, but I wonder if there was a Nahuatl pun to start with. In other words if someone asked the person juggling the wood block what the game was about, he might have said "cuauh temoc." If the pronunciation isn't so different that it would cross the line separating a bad pun from an unintelligible pun, it might verify that the person in the famous drawing was a Nahuatl speaker. Also now that I look for it there's a lot of falling wood in the triptych, for instance a table that was knocked over. Susan Gilchrist Original Message: ----------------- From: Galen Brokaw brokaw at buffalo.edu Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:25:48 -0400 To: sfargo at earthlink.net, NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: cuauh=bosque? Susan, I'm not sure I understand your question, and I have no idea how that image of the painting relates to what you are talking about. But as you probably know the word for eagle is cua:uhtli and the word for wood or tree is cuahuitl. So "cuauh" can mean "bosque." When you use the roots of these words in combination with something else they become "cua:uh" and "cuauh". So if you don't distinguish orthographically between vowel length, there is no difference between the two. There is a glyph used to represent "tree" or "forest," which consists of a tree. The very well known place glpyh for Cuauhnahuac ("place near trees or forest"), for example, is a tree with a mouth out of which issues a speech volute. The "cuauh" of course is for cuahuitl and the mouth and speech volute is a rebus element that puns on the relationship between "nahuac" which means "near" and "nahuatl" meaning "clear speech." And the name glyph of the eagle facing down refers to the meaning of Cuauhtemoc as "descending eagle" from the combination of "cua:uhtli" and the verb "temo" which means to descend. So, anyway, the wood glyph would theoretically be available as a rebus pun on "cua:uhtli", but there wouldn't really seem to be a need to use it that way, because it would be just as easy to draw an eagle. I'm not aware of any glyphs that use the wood glyph in this way, and I wouldn't expect to find any. But I haven't studied such glyphs in any kind of extensively systematic way, so I can't say for sure. Hope this helps. Galen sfargo at earthlink.net wrote: > Still trying to untangle how the name Hieronymus Bosch turned > into Geronimo Bosco and El Bosco in Spain. > > According to my interpretation of El Jardín de las Delicias (which > I'm calling La Bariedad del Mundo following an old inventory), a > person in the center is Cuauhtémoc, since the mini-scene > represents the year 7-Calli (ld 7-house.jpg). The 7 is shown by > someone (I suppose Cortes) poking 7 fingers at him, and the > jar is a house by analogy to pictures of Diogenes who lived in > a barrel. The bird with human feet underneath is an eccentric > version of the name glyph (cuauhtemoc.jpg). > > But there seem to be all kinds of contexts where cuauh has > something to do with trees or wood or a forest. Is there any > connection to the name Cuauhtémoc? Is there another glyph > besides the eagle that could represent cuauh in the sense of > wood or trees? > > In other words I wonder if there's any sign in the detail from the > painting (ld 7-house.jpg) that the artist knew that cuauh could > also mean wood or trees. It would imply that someone was > explaining more than just glyphs for 1-acatl to 10-tecpatl, a > personal name, and a couple of place names, maybe showing > how picture writing can distinguish between words that sound > the same? > Susan Gilchrist > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cuauh temoc jugglers.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 48807 bytes Desc: cuauh temoc jugglers.jpg URL: From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 30 02:54:51 2004 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:54:51 -0400 Subject: cuauh=bosque? - Latinizing names Message-ID: What's interesting here is that José de Sigüenza distinguished between "los disparates de Geronimo Bosque" and the paintings by Geronimo Bosco. Then Covarrubias, especially in his Supplement, considers some alternative etymologies for words with "bos" in them, and whether they have to do with a forest, an ox, or eating. This is in the seventeenth century, but at the time the triptych was painted Baldassare de Castiglione was in Spain, and Il Libro del Cortegiano includes some nonsense etymologies of people's names. I don't know if anyone has considered this one: "Another man, also at Padua, said that Calfurnio was so named because he used to stoke (scaldare) ovens (forni). --Singleton translation, p. 161 So the rule could be se non è vero, è ben trovato. The main question is whether El Bosco and Hieronymus Bosch were known to be different people. Sigüenza might have stuck with Geronimo since he was writing the Historia de la Orden de San Geronimo, but would have known Bosco wasn't Latin or Greek for Bosch. It might have been re- vulgarized to Bosque and then jumped to El Bosco to match El Greco. Also, in this case Hieronymus Bosch was already a pseudonym. Looking for something else on the internet, I ran into a long explanation from Jos Koldeweij's recent book at http://print.google.com/print/doc?isbn=0810967359 The excerpt on the web is missing its illustrations. Koldeweij has published various versions of the Dutch emblems for the city of 's-Hertogenbosch, with and without trees. To make things more complicated, Bosch and Bruegel can both be translated more or less as "shrub," so I keep running into the etymology of shrubbery. Susan Gilchrist Original Message: ----------------- From: Frye, David L dfrye at umich.edu Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:07:16 -0400 To: sfargo at earthlink.net Subject: RE: cuauh=bosque? Same way Cristoforo Colomb and Fernao Magalhaes became Cristobal Colon and Fernando Magallanes in Spain, and Christopher Columbus and Ferdinand Magellan in England. Names were considered translatable in those days -- especially the first name (just look up the saint and translate), but last names were also Latinized and then re-vulgarized into different languages. Hieronymus = Geronimo = Jerome, etc. -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of sfargo at earthlink.net Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 6:38 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: cuauh=bosque? Still trying to untangle how the name Hieronymus Bosch turned into Geronimo Bosco and El Bosco in Spain. -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 30 05:48:03 2004 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 01:48:03 -0400 Subject: cuauh=bosque? Message-ID: Are they too far apart to be combined in a joke? Susan Gilchrist Original Message: ----------------- From: Frances Karttunen karttu at nantucket.net Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:21:39 -0400 To: sfargo at earthlink.net Subject: Re: cuauh=bosque? There are two different stems: cuauh- with a short vowel 'tree, wood' cuauhtlah 'place of many trees, woods' cua:uh- with a long vowel 'eagle' Cua:uhtemo:c 'He has descended in the manner of an eagle' -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Wed Sep 1 01:06:21 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:06:21 -0400 Subject: Otonteuctli icuic In-Reply-To: <4134C384.5040008@ui.boe.es> Message-ID: On Aug 31, 2004, at 2:29 PM, Carlos Santamarina wrote: > A sentence from the Florentine Codex. There?s no spanish version, > because on the left the page is blank. The context is about > Otontecutli, the otomi god. > We have to know that Cuecuex is the tepanec name of the same god, and > otomi and tepanec are from the same ethnic family: > > > ?Otontecutli icujc > [...] > Nitepanecatl aiacuecuexi niquetzalcoatly, aia cuecuexi... ? > (Florentine Codex book 2?, appendix: 141) > > ?Otontecutli's song > I am tepaneca ...................... I am Quetzalcoatl (?), > ....................? > > > > Thank you all. > > I think that one thing going on here is intrusion of vocables into the verse. So with different spacing, etc., it would read: Nitepanecatl [aya] cuecuex i[n] niquetzalcoatl [y aya] cuecuex i[n] I'm not sure about the "i[n]"s, but "aya" is common in the old songs. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 927 bytes Desc: not available URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Wed Sep 1 18:18:32 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:18:32 -0500 Subject: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos Message-ID: Listeros, Who can I cite as the first person to use the term, "bifrasismo", or "difrasismo" to refer to the doublet phrases used so commonly in nahuatl? I've used these two terms for at least 13 years now in my teaching, and I don`t remember if I made them up myself from the word "doublet" or if I read them somewhere. John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Sep 1 19:02:04 2004 From: jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:02:04 -0700 Subject: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <551B4BC8-FC43-11D8-82FA-003065C46A4A@mac.com> Message-ID: John: If I remember correctly the term difrasismo was first used by Angel Maria Garibay, K. I don't knwo exactly where but my guess would be as early as Llave del nahuatl (1940) or in his Historia de la literatura nahuatl (1949). Jose >Listeros, > Who can I cite as the first person to use the term, >"bifrasismo", or "difrasismo" to refer to the doublet phrases used >so commonly in nahuatl? I've used these two terms for at least 13 >years now in my teaching, and I don`t remember if I made them up >myself from the word "doublet" or if I read them somewhere. > >John Sullivan, Ph.D. >Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua >Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas >Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas >Director >Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. >Tacuba 152, int. 47 >Centro Hist?rico >Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >M?xico >Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 >Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 >Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 >Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 >idiez at mac.com >www.idiez.org.mx -- From ealtamir at YAHOO.COM Wed Sep 1 19:22:26 2004 From: ealtamir at YAHOO.COM (Edgar Altamirano) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:22:26 -0700 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, Ok, Angel Maria Garibay used the word difrasismo in Llave del nahuatl, you can find this word in the index INDICE ANALITICO DE LA NOTICIA GRAMATICAL, section ESTILISTICA, pp 18 and 150. --- jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU wrote: > John: If I remember correctly the term difrasismo was first used by > Angel Maria Garibay, K. I don't knwo exactly where but my guess > would be as early as Llave del nahuatl (1940) or in his Historia de > la literatura nahuatl (1949). Jose > > >Listeros, > > Who can I cite as the first person to use the term, > >"bifrasismo", or "difrasismo" to refer to the doublet phrases used > >so commonly in nahuatl? I've used these two terms for at least 13 > >years now in my teaching, and I don`t remember if I made them up > >myself from the word "doublet" or if I read them somewhere. > > > >John Sullivan, Ph.D. > >Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > >Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas > >Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > >Director > >Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. > >Tacuba 152, int. 47 > >Centro Hist?rico > >Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > >M?xico > >Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > >Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > >Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > >Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > >idiez at mac.com > >www.idiez.org.mx > > > -- > From tonantzn at CHORUS.NET Wed Sep 1 19:37:48 2004 From: tonantzn at CHORUS.NET (Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:37:48 -0500 Subject: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos Message-ID: Hola John, I think Jose is absolutely correct. Garibay defines "disfrasismos" in his Lllave del Nahuatl and in Historia de la Literatura Nahuatl. Miguel Leon-Portilla also claims that Angel Maria Garibay K. is the first to use this neologism (see his book Aztec Thought and Culture). However, since Garibay knew the Greek language almost as well as he knew Nahuatl, I would suspect that he borrowed this neologism from the Greek, "hen dia dyoin" or hendiadys which means "one through two" or "one by means of two." In the Greek as in the Hebrew language, a hendiadys is a figure of speech in which an idea is expressed by two words connected by the conjunction ("and") or sometimes even without it. The Hebrew Bible and the New Testament contain many examples of "disfrasismos" or hendiadys. Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 2:02 PM Subject: Re: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos John: If I remember correctly the term difrasismo was first used by Angel Maria Garibay, K. I don't knwo exactly where but my guess would be as early as Llave del nahuatl (1940) or in his Historia de la literatura nahuatl (1949). Jose >Listeros, > Who can I cite as the first person to use the term, >"bifrasismo", or "difrasismo" to refer to the doublet phrases used >so commonly in nahuatl? I've used these two terms for at least 13 >years now in my teaching, and I don`t remember if I made them up >myself from the word "doublet" or if I read them somewhere. > >John Sullivan, Ph.D. >Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua >Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas >Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas >Director >Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. >Tacuba 152, int. 47 >Centro Hist?rico >Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 >M?xico >Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 >Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 >Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 >Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 >idiez at mac.com >www.idiez.org.mx -- From micc2 at COX.NET Wed Sep 1 23:52:54 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:52:54 -0700 Subject: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <551B4BC8-FC43-11D8-82FA-003065C46A4A@mac.com> Message-ID: Garibay? idiez at MAC.COM wrote: > Listeros, > Who can I cite as the first person to use the term, > "bifrasismo", or "difrasismo" to refer to the doublet phrases used so > commonly in nahuatl? I've used these two terms for at least 13 years > now in my teaching, and I don`t remember if I made them up myself from > the word "doublet" or if I read them somewhere. > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Hist?rico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > M?xico > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > From gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US Wed Sep 1 23:36:55 2004 From: gfuentes at CRAFTON.SBCCD.CC.CA.US (Fuentes, Gloria) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:36:55 -0700 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos Message-ID: Can someone tell me what those words mean? -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Edgar Altamirano Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 12:22 PM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos Yes, Ok, Angel Maria Garibay used the word difrasismo in Llave del nahuatl, you can find this word in the index INDICE ANALITICO DE LA NOTICIA GRAMATICAL, section ESTILISTICA, pp 18 and 150. --- jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU wrote: > John: If I remember correctly the term difrasismo was first used by > Angel Maria Garibay, K. I don't knwo exactly where but my guess would > be as early as Llave del nahuatl (1940) or in his Historia de la > literatura nahuatl (1949). Jose > > >Listeros, > > Who can I cite as the first person to use the term, > >"bifrasismo", or "difrasismo" to refer to the doublet phrases used so > >commonly in nahuatl? I've used these two terms for at least 13 years > >now in my teaching, and I don`t remember if I made them up myself > >from the word "doublet" or if I read them somewhere. > > > >John Sullivan, Ph.D. > >Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > >Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas > >Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > >Director > >Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. > >Tacuba 152, int. 47 > >Centro Hist?rico > >Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > >M?xico > >Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > >Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > >Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > >Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > >idiez at mac.com > >www.idiez.org.mx > > > -- > From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 2 01:36:47 2004 From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:36:47 -0400 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <01015FD91DEF9547B915E66C722FF5920161EB46@CHCCLUS01.sbccd.int> Message-ID: Hi, Gloria: On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:36:55 -0700, Fuentes, Gloria wrote: > Can someone tell me what those words mean? I believe the classical definition is as follows: "a parallel couplet containing a pair of metaphors that together expresses a single thought." Here are two common examples: in atl in tlachinolli - "water and fire" - war in xochitl in cuicatl - "flower and song" - poetry Hope this helps. -Geoff -Geoff From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Thu Sep 2 06:52:24 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:52:24 +0100 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <990456820409011836697b10a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: --- Geoff Davis wrote: >... Here are two common examples: > in atl in tlachinolli - "water and fire" - war > in xochitl in cuicatl - "flower and song" - poetry Andrews's book translates difrasismos as e.g. "It is a flower and it is a song". In "it is water and it is fire" used to mean "it is war", I know that war all too often involves setting buildings on fire, but where does water come into it? Does it refer to war canoes? Or does the phrase refer to water and fire being incompatible "elements"? Citlalyani From micc2 at COX.NET Thu Sep 2 07:04:50 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 00:04:50 -0700 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <20040902065224.1851.qmail@web86701.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: the effects of water and fire have nothing to do with this disfrasismo except that: when fire overwhelms water, hot (and sometimes violent) steam is sent out.... when water overcomes fire, it causes flames to shoot out as it puts the fire out... and again steam (and smoke this time) are sent out violently. it is this great release of violence and energy that symbolize war, not how water or fire were used in battle. mario cuauhtlehcoc www.mexicayotl.org ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: > --- Geoff Davis wrote: > > >>... Here are two common examples: >>in atl in tlachinolli - "water and fire" - war >>in xochitl in cuicatl - "flower and song" - poetry >> >> > >Andrews's book translates difrasismos as e.g. "It is a flower and it is >a song". > >In "it is water and it is fire" used to mean "it is war", I know that >war all too often involves setting buildings on fire, but where does >water come into it? Does it refer to war canoes? Or does the phrase >refer to water and fire being incompatible "elements"? > >Citlalyani > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 2 11:40:24 2004 From: cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET (Joanna M. Sanchez) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:40:24 -0400 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos Message-ID: I would add that the two elements- water and fire/'burning'- while mutually exclusive in nature (as you point out, one overwhelms the other), they are maintained in the blood of the human body, which has properties of liquid and heat- I have always sensed that this couplet therefore has multiple referential loci- principally: 1) opposition inherent in conflict; and 2) a reference to blood (human liquid counterpart to water/rain) as the offering prescribed by the 'covenant' to feed the divine powers- this substance is manifested through warfare, and would thus be considered an essential component of the hydraulic cycle (see Monaghan 1995 Covenants with Earth and Rain. Joanna ----- Original Message ----- From: micc2 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 3:04 AM Subject: Re: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos the effects of water and fire have nothing to do with this disfrasismo except that: when fire overwhelms water, hot (and sometimes violent) steam is sent out.... when water overcomes fire, it causes flames to shoot out as it puts the fire out... and again steam (and smoke this time) are sent out violently. it is this great release of violence and energy that symbolize war, not how water or fire were used in battle. mario cuauhtlehcoc www.mexicayotl.org ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: --- Geoff Davis wrote: ... Here are two common examples: in atl in tlachinolli - "water and fire" - war in xochitl in cuicatl - "flower and song" - poetry Andrews's book translates difrasismos as e.g. "It is a flower and it is a song". In "it is water and it is fire" used to mean "it is war", I know that war all too often involves setting buildings on fire, but where does water come into it? Does it refer to war canoes? Or does the phrase refer to water and fire being incompatible "elements"? Citlalyani -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 2 11:47:07 2004 From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:47:07 -0400 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <20040902065224.1851.qmail@web86701.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:52:24 +0100, ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: > Andrews's book translates difrasismos as e.g. "It is a > flower and it is a song". That's another valid translation. :D The same difrasismo used above may appear translated as "the flower, the song," "it is a flower, it is a song," or "flower and song." Or, perhaps even other ways. One sees these different translations because English and Nahuatl differ substantially in structure. In Nahuatl, virtually any absolutive element can be interpreted as a stand-alone sentence. Depending upon context, it may not make a lot of sense if the most literal translation is made. > In "it is water and it is fire" used to mean "it is war", I know that > war all too often involves setting buildings on fire, but where does > water come into it? Does it refer to war canoes? Or does the > phrase refer to water and fire being incompatible "elements"? Personally, I always felt it was the dynamic opposition of these two things that symbolized war. -Geoff From Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM Thu Sep 2 15:05:56 2004 From: Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM (Irene Padilla) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 08:05:56 -0700 Subject: Translation Message-ID: Can someone please translate There's No me without you thanks ~Irene -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU Thu Sep 2 23:20:08 2004 From: mdmorris at INDIANA.EDU (Mark David Morris) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:20:08 -0500 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <002201c490e1$a8b9b280$a0a15b40@o9l8c6> Message-ID: Regarding in atl, in tlachinolli, it may also be important to bear in mind that tlachinolli most directly refers to the kind of burning done in agricultural fields. What I'm suggesting is that war was being metaphorically equated to an agricultural cycle. best, Mark Morris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ La muerte tiene permiso a todo MDM, PhD Candidate Dept. of History, Indiana Univ. From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 2 23:56:08 2004 From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 19:56:08 -0400 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:20:08 -0500, Mark David Morris wrote: > Regarding in atl, in tlachinolli, it may also be important > to bear in mind that tlachinolli most directly refers to the > kind of burning done in agricultural fields. What I'm > suggesting is that war was being metaphorically equated > to an agricultural cycle. I wasn't aware of the correlation between tlachinolli and field burning, which may just go to show my inexperience. I had, though, considered the possibility that there was an agricultural significance to the terminology, but hadn't the knowledge to prove it beyond "just a hunch". Principally, I drew my conclusion from the idea that what I was reading was a juxtaposing of elements that represented, at some level, the wet and dry seasons of Mexico. It seems to me this has significant parallel with the role of destruction-balance (war?) in Hinduism, albeit in a different context. I could, of course, be totally off base -- on account of being still a newbie. Are there others who also see this correlation? Kind regards, -Geoff From swood at DARKWING.UOREGON.EDU Fri Sep 3 00:12:42 2004 From: swood at DARKWING.UOREGON.EDU (Stephanie Wood) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 17:12:42 -0700 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos Message-ID: It has been fun seeing the many interpretations of in atl, in tlachinolli. Is there energy to build a similar thread with the implications behind in atl, in tepetl? --Stephanie From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Fri Sep 3 05:25:35 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:25:35 +0100 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <001101c4914a$bb779400$3281df80@uoregon.edu> Message-ID: --- Stephanie Wood wrote: > ... the implications behind in atl, in tepetl? If you mean "atltepetl" = "it is water and it is a hill" = "it is a village: in the Valley of Mexico the village needs water for drinking and irrigation, and preferably a hill to build a fort on or to live on out of reach of floods. Or else, where there has beenb a village for a long time, the ground slowly builds up into a mound. From wbarnes at TULANE.EDU Fri Sep 3 05:26:56 2004 From: wbarnes at TULANE.EDU (William L. Barnes) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 22:26:56 -0700 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos (atl-tlachinolli) In-Reply-To: <001101c4914a$bb779400$3281df80@uoregon.edu> Message-ID: While this is a bit off the track from Garibay's introduction of 'difrasismo' - off the top of my head, in terms of the atl-tlachinolli diphrasism, one should look to Seler's correct assumption that it is actually teo-atl that is depicted in pre-Hisp. visual texts. That is, the reference is to "divine water" or blood (Seler 1990:2:92-93 [the Labrynthos trans]). In pre-European visual texts (for example, the Teocalli of Sacred Warfare), the teo-atl scroll segment of this spoken phrase is usually depicted as water - but water that comes from the mouth of a supernatural (whether a divine or a semi-divine individual). The speaker, then, would serve as a semantic indicator for the "teo" modifier. The tlachinolli speech-scroll (literally something[land?] burning) is usually depicted as a headless (fire?)serpent, identifiable (again, i.e. the Teocalli) by its segmented body - and the scalloped rent flesh and "spurt" of blood/flame at its end. The same crescent forms used in visual texts to identify furrows in plots of land (i.e. place-name glyphs for Xochimilco) often show up on the underbelly of these headless 'tlachinolli' serpents suggesting that it is, indeed, agricultural land being burned. In terms of metaphors and diphrasims for warfare, the Nahuas were not alone in referencing blood spilled & fields burned. As for atl-tepetl or in atl in tepetl, I don't have much in the way of visual evidence aside from the common place-name glyph of a hill with water flowing from below - although one should keep in mind the diphrasism for a person "gone wild" involves "throwing oneself off the hill and into the water" - literally, becoming un-civilized (also referenced by "becoming the deer, becoming the hare" - I don't have Olmos in front of me, but it's in there). The fact that most civilized/urban locales (like Teotihuacan or, later, Tenochtitlan & etc.) were made of stone & had access to fresh water via lakes, rivers, and/or canals, probably played some role in this . . . WB ____________________________________________ William L. Barnes School of Art, Design and Art History San Diego State University 5500 Campanile Drive San Diego, CA 92182-4805 Phone:(619) 594-5918 Fax: (619) 594-1217 email: wbarnes at mail.sdsu.edu ____________________________________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: Nahua language and culture discussion > [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU]On Behalf Of Stephanie Wood > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 5:13 PM > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Re: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos > > > It has been fun seeing the many interpretations of in atl, > in tlachinolli. > Is there energy to build a similar thread with the > implications behind in > atl, in tepetl? > > --Stephanie > From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Fri Sep 3 08:08:34 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:08:34 +0100 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos (atl-tlachinolli) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Andrews's book "Classical Nauhatl" describes difrasmosmos at section 31.8 and section 52.4, and lists many. From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri Sep 3 11:20:45 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:20:45 -0500 Subject: Translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: nehhuatl ahnicah in tla tehhuatl ahticah. Quoting Irene Padilla : > Can someone please translate > There's No me without you > thanks > ~Irene From cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Sep 3 11:48:21 2004 From: cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET (Joanna M. Sanchez) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:48:21 -0400 Subject: Fw: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos Message-ID: My earlier message appears not to have been successfully received; I therefore reiterate: Couplets are, as many have pointed out, a feature of ritual languages, and as such, their referential values are sometimes obscured by convention and design. When this is the case, meaning is likely linked to some feature of ideology. I would say that the two elements of atl tlachinolli- water and fire/'burning'- while mutually exclusive in nature (as pointed out, one overwhelms the other, violently releasing the ephemeral 'steam'), are maintained in the blood of the human body, having properties of both liquid and heat. This confounds the apparent exclusivity of the elements. I therefore sense that this couplet has two main referential loci- principally: 1) opposition- an inherent dimension of conflict; dry/wet seasons could relate to this oppositional dynamic; and 2) a reference to blood (human liquid counterpart to water/rain) as the offering element prescribed by the 'covenant' to feed the divine powers- this substance is manifested through warfare, and is considered an essential component of the hydraulic cycle (see Monaghan 1995 Covenants with Earth and Rain). About the atl tepetl pairing, as hills are believed to be receptacles for water, they make good settlement locations. A more esoteric reading might entail seeing hills as dwelling places of ancestral and rain spirits, and water, of course 'divine' water, as the enabler of all life. Joanna ----- Original Message ----- From: micc2 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 3:04 AM Subject: Re: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos the effects of water and fire have nothing to do with this disfrasismo except that: when fire overwhelms water, hot (and sometimes violent) steam is sent out.... when water overcomes fire, it causes flames to shoot out as it puts the fire out... and again steam (and smoke this time) are sent out violently. it is this great release of violence and energy that symbolize war, not how water or fire were used in battle. mario cuauhtlehcoc www.mexicayotl.org ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: --- Geoff Davis wrote: ... Here are two common examples: in atl in tlachinolli - "water and fire" - war in xochitl in cuicatl - "flower and song" - poetry Andrews's book translates difrasismos as e.g. "It is a flower and it is a song". In "it is water and it is fire" used to mean "it is war", I know that war all too often involves setting buildings on fire, but where does water come into it? Does it refer to war canoes? Or does the phrase refer to water and fire being incompatible "elements"? Citlalyani -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU Fri Sep 3 13:28:20 2004 From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:28:20 -0600 Subject: "Mexico" Message-ID: Does anyone here know when the word "Mexico" was first used as a (rough) equivalent for "New Spain" (or at least for a larger region than Tenochtitlan or the Valley of Mexico? Richley From Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM Fri Sep 3 13:30:09 2004 From: Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM (Irene Padilla) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:30:09 -0700 Subject: Translation In-Reply-To: <1094210445.4138538d6e6e3@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Thank you so much!!~Irene mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Sent by: Nahua language and culture discussion 09/03/04 04:20 AM Please respond to Nahua language and culture discussion To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU cc: Subject: Re: Translation nehhuatl ahnicah in tla tehhuatl ahticah. Quoting Irene Padilla : > Can someone please translate > There's No me without you > thanks > ~Irene -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Fri Sep 3 14:31:20 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:31:20 -0500 Subject: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <20040903052535.61898.qmail@web86703.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Anthony, The only problem is that in accordance with Mesoamerican sacred landscape, indigenous people prefered living in marshy areas and ravines which were prone to flooding. And they prefered living at the foot of the sacred hill (which should have caves with springs running out of them), not on top of it. The sacred hill itself can be thought of as a womb or water filled gourd, representing the primordial lake in which humanity gestated. Further, this whole mountain/aquatic system was situated normally within large natural depression, horseshoe-shaped valley or rinconada. Stephanie knows all this and more, and I'm sure she will have quite a few things to say on the topic. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Sep 3, 2004, at 12:25 AM, ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: > --- Stephanie Wood wrote: >> ... the implications behind in atl, in tepetl? > > If you mean "atltepetl" = "it is water and it is a hill" = "it is a > village: in the Valley of Mexico the village needs water for drinking > and irrigation, and preferably a hill to build a fort on or to live on > out of reach of floods. Or else, where there has beenb a village for a > long time, the ground slowly builds up into a mound. > From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Fri Sep 3 14:37:20 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:37:20 +0100 Subject: Fw: Edgar: doublets, bifrasismos, difrasismos In-Reply-To: <001401c491ab$efedf100$42a35b40@o9l8c6> Message-ID: Andrews quotes many examples, including:- - tli_lli tlapalli : it is black ink & it is color : it is writing. - Anquimotequimacah in mi_xi_tl in tla_pa_tl : you-all diligently give youself jimsonweed & Datura stramonium : you are alcoholics. [Here the two nouns are synonyms.] - mi_tl chi_malli : it is an arrow & it is a shield : it is war - i_te_ntzon i_i_xcuahmo_l : it is his beard & it is his eyebrows : it is his grandson or great grandson. - Ti_zatl ihhuitl tictla_lia : You set down white clay & a feather : You set a good example [or] You give good advice. - Ca ahmo_ i_huiya_n ye_cca_n in petlapan in icpalpan : Upon the mat & upon the seat [of authority] is indeed not in a calm place or in a good place : Being a ruler is not easy. From MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM Sat Sep 4 01:35:11 2004 From: MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM (Maria) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 18:35:11 -0700 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?D=EDa_de_muertos=2C_patrimonio_cultural_de_la_humanidad._C?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?onvocatoria?= In-Reply-To: <20040903143720.32547.qmail@web86708.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Amigos: Celebremos el d?a de muertos en grande, este primer a?o en que se cumple el aniversario de la declaraci?n de esa fiesta como Patrimonio Cultural de la Humanidad. Yo invito. Colocaremos los testimonios en una p?gina para difundirlos por todo el mundo. El esfuerzo colectivo dar? fuerza y diversidad a esa celebraci?n. Inscr?banse. Les estoy enviando un proyecto que les va a fascinar. Rev?senlo, pi?nsenlo y lo hacemos, todos juntos, desde cualquier parte del planeta. S?lo tienen que tomar fotos, reunir testimonios y enviarlos o enviar sus ligas a la direcci?n que figura en la convocatoria adjunta. Nada complicado. Todos ya celebramos el d?a de muertos a nuestra manera. Es cosa de reunirnos para hacer el cat?logo y convertir esa energ?a en energ?a colectiva. Vamos a mover monta?as, juntos. Los saludo Mar?a Dolores Bol?var -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Convocatoria.doc Type: application/octet-stream Size: 85504 bytes Desc: not available URL: From budelberger.richard at 9ONLINE.FR Fri Sep 3 11:40:00 2004 From: budelberger.richard at 9ONLINE.FR (Budelberger, Richard) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:40:00 +0200 Subject: Otonteuctli icuic Message-ID: 16 fructidor an CCXII (le 3 septembre 2004 d. c.-d. c. g.), 13h35. ---- Message d'origine ---- De : Frances Karttunen ? : NAHUAT-L Envoy? : mercredi 1 septembre 2004 03:06 Objet : Re: Otonteuctli icuic > On Aug 31, 2004, at 2:29 PM, Carlos Santamarina wrote: > >> A sentence from the /Florentine Codex/. There's no spanish version, >> because on the left the page is blank. The context is about >> Otontecutli, the otomi god. >> We have to know that Cuecuex is the tepanec name of the same god, and >> otomi and tepanec are from the same ethnic family: >> >> >> ?Otontecutli icujc >> [...] >> Nitepanecatl aiacuecuexi niquetzalcoatly, aia cuecuexi... ? >> (/Florentine Codex book/ 2?, appendix: 141) >> >> "Otontecutli's song >> I am tepaneca ...................... I am Quetzalcoatl (?), >> ...................." >> >> >> >> Thank you all. > > > I think that one thing going on here is intrusion of vocables into the > verse. > > So with different spacing, etc., it would read: > > Nitepanecatl [aya] cuecuex i[n] niquetzalcoatl [y aya] cuecuex i[n] > > I'm not sure about the "i[n]"s, but "aya" is common in the old songs. Dear Listeros, Cf. uel . Budelberger, Richard. From MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM Sat Sep 4 18:01:25 2004 From: MBOLIVAR at SAN.RR.COM (Maria) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 11:01:25 -0700 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Defensa_de_Teotihuac=E1n?= In-Reply-To: <4134C384.5040008@ui.boe.es> Message-ID: Amigos: Les estoy transmitiendo la carta que me enviara Alessandra Luiselli, desde Texas. Es muy importante que nos solidaricemos por la defensa de Teotihuacan. No puede ser que les heredemos a nuestros hijos en lugar de una plaza se?orial. Cargada de energ?a, una plaza Walmart, con su consabida carga globalizante de art?culos a bajo precio, productos pl?sticos, ropa de acr?lico y nylon, infinidad de productos de consumo necesario e innecesario. ??til? Ya lo creo que s?. Pero no sobre la cultura ancestral y a un lado de ese portento que muchos visitamos para llenarnos de energ?a y recoger, en pedazos, nuestra identidad pisoteada. Luchemos y, por favor, pell?zquenme para que yo compuebe que estoy dormida. No puede ser que a alg?n pol?tico se le haya ocurrido poner ese Walmart, justamente ah?. ?Recuerden, luchar ni cuesta ni empobrece, ni protestar envejece! M?ndenos su aprobaci?n de inmediato, para incluir su nombre en el desplegado que aparecer? en un diario de alta circulaci?n. Solo tienen que hacer reply, s?, inc?yanme en la l?nea de tema del mensaje o dirigirse a: Alessandra Luiselli: viajeraquevas at yahoo.com.mx Los abrazo. Mar?a Dolores Bol?var En defensa del Valle de Teotihuacan Fecha: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:37:11 -0500 Comit? de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan El sitio arqueol?gico de Teotihuacan, considerado por las naciones unidas como un patrimonio de la humanidad, y uno de los tesoros espirituales y culturales de M?xico, esta siendo acosado por fuerzas globalizadoras. En forma sorpresiva, se ha iniciado la construcci?n de un centro comercial de Wal Mart en las inmediaciones de las pir?mides. Mediante una campa?a de propaganda en bardas y en desplegados en contra del Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia, los promotores de este proyecto y sus c?mplices pol?ticos en la regi?n, lograron aparentar que la opini?n publica local esta de acuerdo con que la zona Arqueol?gica se vuelva un bot?n comercial de quien este dispuesto a pagar por medrar con el patrimonio cultural de Teotihuacan, y as? el INAH ha liberado el predio respecto a las restricciones se?aladas por la Ley Federal de Monumentos y zonas arqueol?gicas, art?sticos y culturales en vigor; las autoridades estatales por su parte, otorgaron el permiso de uso de suelo, y las municipales la licencia de construcci?n, para un establecimiento que a todas luces afecta m?ltiples aspectos de la vida de la regi?n del valle de Teotihuacan. El casco urbano de San Juan, la cabecera municipal de donde se lleva el proyecto, tiene como ?nico acceso desde la autopista M?xico- Pir?mides, la Av. Hidalgo donde actualmente el tr?fico es ya muy conflictivo, siendo la arteria principal de la poblaci?n por lo que la presencia de un centro comercial, a escasos metros de esa Av., vendr? a desquiciar la vialidad en todo el pueblo, desde los tr?boles de la autopista hasta el centro. Las obras se est?n llevando a cabo en las inmediaciones de un monumento hist?rico y art?stico, el puente del emperador, al que afectar? visualmente por estar colindante con el centro comercial en construcci?n, afectaci?n que incluye las pir?mides, localizadas a menos de medio kilometro de la pretendida bodega Aurrera. La construcci?n se esta realizando en terrenos de alta productividad agr?cola, en una regi?n donde la poblaci?n mayoritariamente se dedica a la agricultura, y en forma muy importante al comercio, por lo que se considera que la presencia de un establecimiento comercial de gran superficie como el que se pretende producir? un impacto econ?mico nefasto para la mayor?a de los comercios de la regi?n, y que implicara la deformaci?n de los usos y costumbres tradicionales de producci?n y consumo en toda el ?rea de influencia del valle de Teotihuacan, donde sus habitantes est?n ligados por lazos culturales e hist?ricos a sus monumentos prehisp?nicos. Todas las afectaciones referidas para nada a sido puesta en consideraci?n de la poblaci?n, y, en franco desaf?o al principio de municipio libre, el gobierno del Estado de M?xico, pasando por alto originalmente al ayuntamiento otorgo la licencia de uso de suelo y el ayuntamiento, - por encima de la comunidad- la licencia de construcci?n; adem?s de que las autoridades del INAH y las de transito federal y estatal no ha hecho valer las leyes de las que son custodios. La poblaci?n del valle de Teotihuacan ha decidido enfrentar este intento de globalizar este reducto de la historia de M?xico, patrimonio cultural de M?xico y de la humanidad; y apelando a las garant?as que le otorgan las Constituciones de la Rep?blica y la del Estado de M?xico y las Leyes que de ella se desprenden, har?n valer ante las autoridades de los tres niveles de gobierno, de los tres poderes de la uni?n la defensa de sus derechos, denunciando la trama de componendas e intereses que han permitido el inicio de las obras de la bodega Aurrera-WalMart en Teotihuacan. Comit? de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. Teotihuacan de Arista, 15 de agosto de 2004. Mayor informaci?n Circuito Pir?mides s/n Detr?s de la Pir?mide de la luna, con Emma Ortega Moreno tel.01(594) 95 8 23 06 > MANIFIESTO DEL VALLE DE TEOTIHUACAN Mas de 2000 a?os de tradici?n no pueden desaparecer para dar paso al proyecto de globalizaci?n en contra de un pueblo que a cada d?a ve debilitar su econom?a, mientras que los grandes capitales transnacionales amasan cuantiosas fortunas que convierten en d?lares que terminan fuera del pa?s, un pa?s que ha pesar de contar con enormes riquezas y recursos naturales esta convirti?ndose en esclavo de su propia tierra. En este momento amargo de disoluci?n del concepto de naci?n en aras de los intereses globalizadores, toca a los mexicanos de hoy defender la tierra que nos vio nacer, y a nosotros los Teotihuacanos, en particular, hacerlo con esta privilegiada porci?n de nuestro pa?s donde esta plasmado en pir?mides y monumentos del pasado de M?xico. El pasado de Teotihuacan, que llega hasta nuestro presente en forma de pir?mides, orgullo de M?xico y declarado patrimonio de la humanidad, esta amenazado ahora por proyectos de las fuerzas globalizadoras que empiezan a a?orar con la construcci?n de un centro comercial de una firma transnacional que sin duda servir? de punta de lanza para que mas adelante nuestra tierra se fraccione para la construcci?n de unidades habitacionales que har?n que se escaseen y se encarezcan nuestra agua y los servicios p?blicos de que nos hemos dotado los teotihuacanos poniendo en peligro la subsistencia de las futuras generaciones. Estamos constatando dolorosamente como las autoridades del INAH, imponen a los pobladores del valle onerosas restricci?n y ampliaci?n de sus viviendas pretextando la protecci?n del patrimonio arqueol?gico de la zona, aunque todas las restricciones no se apliquen a los grandes intereses, como en el caso de la construcci?n de la bodega Aurrera por parte de la transnacional Wal Mart en un acuerdo evidente con las autoridades del INAH, del gobierno del Estado de M?xico y del ayuntamiento, que de pronto otorga licencias y permisos para la construcci?n del centro comercial ya mencionado, hemos constatado como esos intereses transnacionales con sus pol?ticas comerciales ma?osas se infiltran en el consumidor mediante precios bajos para acabar con la competencia, para que una vez eliminada establezcan condiciones monop?licas en detrimento del poder adquisitivo de la poblaci?n. Pero si el da?o que representa la desaparici?n de muchos cientos de peque?os y medianos negocios es una amenaza para la econom?a regional, el mayor da?o es el que el dinero que los consumidores gastan en el comercio tradicional vuelve a la econom?a de la regi?n, y se recicla derramando beneficios para toda la poblaci?n mediante la creaci?n de nuevos empleos y de una mayor demanda, pero el dinero gastado en las cadenas transnacionales salen definitivamente del pa?s, dejando un precario remanente para empleados locales, pues los responsables y administradores son regularmente fuere?os. Puesto que la operaci?n de un centro comercial transnacional en Teotihuacan afecta a todos los comercios de la regi?n, que vive precisamente de la actividad comercial, consideramos indispensable defender a toda costa nuestra fuente de trabajo y las formas tradicionales de consumo de nuestras comunidades. Las disposiciones reglamentarias del uso de suelo en el valle de Teotihuacan han impedido hasta ahora el desarrollo de otras industrias que no sean la tur?stica en toda la regi?n por lo tanto no hay suficiente generaci?n de empleo que no sea en la agricultura y en el autoempleo que propicia el peque?o comercio; as? la desaparici?n de dos millares de comercios medianos y peque?os, que traer?a una tienda de autoservicio como la que pretende instalarse en Teotihuacan dejar?a a todo el valle de Teotihuacan econ?micamente inerme, y con desempleo inmanejable que sin duda generar?a desorden social y delincuencia. El temor y la apat?a que en otro tiempo cavaron la tumba de nuestros proyectos ante la coacci?n de la autoridades desp?ticas son cosas del pasado. Hoy la solidaridad en la defensa de lo que es nuestro, nos lleva a luchas hasta la victoria. No nos vamos a quedar con los brazos cruzados viendo a nuestro Teotihuacan irse de nuestras manos, llev?ndose el futuro de nuestros hijos, que tienen que migrar a tierras extra?as buscando mejores oportunidades, abandonando todo, dejando a sus familias y hasta arriesgando la vida para obtener el sustento para su familia. Esta seria la ultima opci?n para muchos teotihuacanos que la desaparecer el peque?o comercio ante el embate de las cadena comerciales se ver?an obligados a emigrar. CONSIDERANDO QUE: 1.-) el INAH, cediendo a las presiones de la empresa Wal Mart testaferro Roberto Ruiz presidente del Consejo Coordinador de Teotihuacan, permitio el inicio de las obras sin un rescate arqueol?gico apegado a las normas de ley (art. 44 del reglamento de la ley federal sobre monumentos y zonas arqueol?gicas, art?sticos e hist?ricos) en un lugar en el que se han realizado hallazgos arqueol?gicos durante las excavaciones para la cimentaci?n del centro comercial. Y a pesar de la afectaci?n que har?n los edificios en construcci?n de la perspectiva del monumento hist?rico y art?stico del siglo XIX denominado " puente del emperador". 2.-) el gobierno del estado de M?xico, por medio de la Secretaria de desarrollo urbano y obra publica ha concedido la licencia de uso de suelo, a pesar de que el plan de desarrollo municipal de Teotihuacan en vigor desde noviembre de 2003 prohibe expresamente la construcci?n de centros comerciales y tiendas departamentales en el espacio clasificado como H833A donde se ha iniciado las obras de Bodega Aurrera, terreno que estaba destinado a la producci?n agr?cola. 3.-) Las autoridades de tr?nsito estatal y federal no han tomado en cuenta el impacto vial que representa el trafico en los alrededores del centro comercial, situado a unos metros de la principal y arteria vial de San Juan Teotihuacan. 4.-) El presidente municipal de Teotihuacan, Guillermo Rodr?guez C?spedes deforma econ?mica, sin mediar petici?n escrita de Wal Mart en un cabildazo hizo aprobar la expedici?n de la licencia de construcci?n sin mediar ni una consulta a la poblaci?n, ni los estudios de impacto del proyecto comercial de esta transnacional, ni la opini?n t?cnica en materia vial, ecol?gica y sanitaria sobre la construcci?n, y operaci?n del centro comercial en cuesti?n. 5.-) Que la sociedad civil por medio de la organizaci?n de las Naciones Ind?genas Unidas A.C. ya se hab?a pronunciado por escrito ante el presidente municipal de teotihuacan, desde el mes de marzo del corriente en contra de la construcci?n de establecimientos comerciales transnacionales de Teotihuacan. MANIFESTAMOS: 1.-) QUE SON A TODAS LUCES ILEGALES LOS PERMISOS Y AUTORIZACIONES OTORGADOS POR EL INAH, EL GOBIERNO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO Y EL AYUNTAMIENTO DE TEOTIHUACAN, RESPECTO A LA CONSTRUCCI?N, OPERACI?N Y USO DE SUELO DE "BODEGA AURRERA" CON DOMICILIO EN CRUZ DE LA MISION NUMERO 8 FRACCIONAMIENTO LA PARROQUIA DE SAN JUAN TEOTIHUACAN MEXICO. 2.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL ORGANIZADA DE TEOTIHUACAN TOMA EN SUS MANOS LA DEFENSA JURIDICA DE SUS LEGITIMOS INTERESES, EN FRANCA CONTRA LA CORRUPCION DE SUS AUTORIDADES. 3.-) QUE LA CONDICION DE CENTRO ESPIRITUAL Y CULTURAL DE MEXICO QUE ATRIBUIMOS LOS MEXICANOS A TEOTIHUACAN, HACE QUE ESTE ASUNTO SEA DE INTERES PARA TODO EL PUEBLO MEXICANO. 4.-) QUE SIENDO TEOTIHUACAN PATRIMONIO CULTURAL DE LA HUMANIDAD EL TEMA EXPUESTO ES DE INTERES INTERNACIONAL. 5.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL TEOTIHUACANA SE RESERVA EL DERECHO DE EJERCER CUALQUIER MEDIDA PARA HACERSE ESCUCHAR Y ATENDER DENTRO DE LOS MARGENES DE LA LEGALIDAD, Y DE ACUERDO CON LAS GARANTIAS QUE LE OTORGAN LAS CONSTITUCIONES POLITICAS DE LOS ESTADOS UNIDOS MEXICANOS Y LA DEL ESTADO LIBRE Y SOBERANO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO. 6.-) QUE AL MARGEN DE LAS RESPONSABILIDADES ADMINISTRATIVAS, CIVILES, PENALES Y/U OTRAS EN LAS QUE PUDIERAN INCURRIR LAS AUTORIDADES MUNICIPALES, ESTATALES Y FEDERALES Y QUE EN SU MOMENTO DENUNCIAREMOS POR LA VIA LEGAL, EMPLAZAMOS A LOS RESPONSABLES FRENTE AL JUICIO DE LA HISTORIA POR LAS AFECTACIONES QUE PRODUZCAN A NUSTRA FORMA DE VIDA Y TRADICIONES EXTRA?AS A NUESTRA CULTURA MEXICANA Y TEOTIHUACANA. 7.-) LA DEFENSA DE NUESTRA AGUA, NUESTRA TIERRA Y DE NUESTRO ESPACIO, ANTE LA CONSTRUCCION Y OPERACI?N PRESENTE O FUTURA DE FRACCIONAMEINTOS DE DESARROLLOS URBANOS Y COMERCIALES, SERA UNA CAUSA POPULAR, INDEPENDIENTE DE LA VOLUNTAD DE LOS GOBIERNOS QUE LOS AUTORICEN. 8.-) QUE DE NO DETENERSE LA CONSTRUCCION DEL CENTRO COMERCIAL, PROMOVEREMOS LA RENUNCIA DEL AYUNTAMIENTO MUNICIPAL DE TEOTIHUACAN. Comit? de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX Sat Sep 4 23:12:19 2004 From: ritamontano2002 at YAHOO.COM.MX (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rita=20Monta=FFfffff1o?=) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 18:12:19 -0500 Subject: Defensa_de_Teotihuacn In-Reply-To: <002201c492a9$31c949a0$8fcc4a42@Main> Message-ID: Hola Te saludo y me uno a lista por la defensa de Teotihuacan. Por desgracia no est?s dormida, el capitalismo, ahora en su etapa neoliberal sigue siendo destructor de todas y cualquier cultura cuya l?gica no sea la acumulaci?n de capital; los pol?ticos mexicanos son incultos, vanidosos y tontos, o mesquinos, no se. No se les ocurre, por ejemplo, proponer la creaci?n de un hotel tipo colonial en Acolman o fuera de San Juan Teotihuacan que pudiera atraer turismo o un corredor turistico que abarcara toda la zona y cuyos ingresos sirvieran para dar mantenimiento a las pir?mides y otras construcciones. Es triste, muy triste, ojal? y logremos evitar esta agresi?n a una de las muestras m?s ricas de la cultura prehisp?nica. Ma. de los ?ngeles Sanchez Noriega A. Maria wrote: st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Amigos: Les estoy transmitiendo la carta que me enviara Alessandra Luiselli, desde Texas. Es muy importante que nos solidaricemos por la defensa de Teotihuacan. No puede ser que les heredemos a nuestros hijos en lugar de una plaza se?orial. Cargada de energ?a, una plaza Walmart, con su consabida carga globalizante de art?culos a bajo precio, productos pl?sticos, ropa de acr?lico y nylon, infinidad de productos de consumo necesario e innecesario. ??til? Ya lo creo que s?. Pero no sobre la cultura ancestral y a un lado de ese portento que muchos visitamos para llenarnos de energ?a y recoger, en pedazos, nuestra identidad pisoteada. Luchemos y, por favor, pell?zquenme para que yo compuebe que estoy dormida. No puede ser que a alg?n pol?tico se le haya ocurrido poner ese Walmart, justamente ah?. ?Recuerden, luchar ni cuesta ni empobrece, ni protestar envejece! M?ndenos su aprobaci?n de inmediato, para incluir su nombre en el desplegado que aparecer? en un diario de alta circulaci?n. Solo tienen que hacer reply, s?, inc?yanme en la l?nea de tema del mensaje o dirigirse a: Alessandra Luiselli: viajeraquevas at yahoo.com.mx Los abrazo. Mar?a Dolores Bol?var En defensa del Valle de Teotihuacan Fecha: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:37:11 -0500 Comit? de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan El sitio arqueol?gico de Teotihuacan, considerado por las naciones unidas como un patrimonio de la humanidad, y uno de los tesoros espirituales y culturales de M?xico, esta siendo acosado por fuerzas globalizadoras. En forma sorpresiva, se ha iniciado la construcci?n de un centro comercial de Wal Mart en las inmediaciones de las pir?mides. Mediante una campa?a de propaganda en bardas y en desplegados en contra del Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia, los promotores de este proyecto y sus c?mplices pol?ticos en la regi?n, lograron aparentar que la opini?n publica local esta de acuerdo con que la zona Arqueol?gica se vuelva un bot?n comercial de quien este dispuesto a pagar por medrar con el patrimonio cultural de Teotihuacan, y as? el INAH ha liberado el predio respecto a las restricciones se?aladas por la Ley Federal de Monumentos y zonas arqueol?gicas, art?sticos y culturales en vigor; las autoridades estatales por su parte, otorgaron el permiso de uso de suelo, y las municipales la licencia de construcci?n, para un establecimiento que a todas luces afecta m?ltiples aspectos de la vida de la regi?n del valle de Teotihuacan. El casco urbano de San Juan, la cabecera municipal de donde se lleva el proyecto, tiene como ?nico acceso desde la autopista M?xico- Pir?mides, la Av. Hidalgo donde actualmente el tr?fico es ya muy conflictivo, siendo la arteria principal de la poblaci?n por lo que la presencia de un centro comercial, a escasos metros de esa Av., vendr? a desquiciar la vialidad en todo el pueblo, desde los tr?boles de la autopista hasta el centro. Las obras se est?n llevando a cabo en las inmediaciones de un monumento hist?rico y art?stico, el puente del emperador, al que afectar? visualmente por estar colindante con el centro comercial en construcci?n, afectaci?n que incluye las pir?mides, localizadas a menos de medio kilometro de la pretendida bodega Aurrera. La construcci?n se esta realizando en terrenos de alta productividad agr?cola, en una regi?n donde la poblaci?n mayoritariamente se dedica a la agricultura, y en forma muy importante al comercio, por lo que se considera que la presencia de un establecimiento comercial de gran superficie como el que se pretende producir? un impacto econ?mico nefasto para la mayor?a de los comercios de la regi?n, y que implicara la deformaci?n de los usos y costumbres tradicionales de producci?n y consumo en toda el ?rea de influencia del valle de Teotihuacan, donde sus habitantes est?n ligados por lazos culturales e hist?ricos a sus monumentos prehisp?nicos. Todas las afectaciones referidas para nada a sido puesta en consideraci?n de la poblaci?n, y, en franco desaf?o al principio de municipio libre, el gobierno del Estado de M?xico, pasando por alto originalmente al ayuntamiento otorgo la licencia de uso de suelo y el ayuntamiento, - por encima de la comunidad- la licencia de construcci?n; adem?s de que las autoridades del INAH y las de transito federal y estatal no ha hecho valer las leyes de las que son custodios. La poblaci?n del valle de Teotihuacan ha decidido enfrentar este intento de globalizar este reducto de la historia de M?xico, patrimonio cultural de M?xico y de la humanidad; y apelando a las garant?as que le otorgan las Constituciones de la Rep?blica y la del Estado de M?xico y las Leyes que de ella se desprenden, har?n valer ante las autoridades de los tres niveles de gobierno, de los tres poderes de la uni?n la defensa de sus derechos, denunciando la trama de componendas e intereses que han permitido el inicio de las obras de la bodega Aurrera-WalMart en Teotihuacan. Comit? de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. Teotihuacan de Arista, 15 de agosto de 2004. Mayor informaci?n Circuito Pir?mides s/n Detr?s de la Pir?mide de la luna, con Emma Ortega Moreno tel.01(594) 95 8 23 06 > MANIFIESTO DEL VALLE DE TEOTIHUACAN Mas de 2000 a?os de tradici?n no pueden desaparecer para dar paso al proyecto de globalizaci?n en contra de un pueblo que a cada d?a ve debilitar su econom?a, mientras que los grandes capitales transnacionales amasan cuantiosas fortunas que convierten en d?lares que terminan fuera del pa?s, un pa?s que ha pesar de contar con enormes riquezas y recursos naturales esta convirti?ndose en esclavo de su propia tierra. En este momento amargo de disoluci?n del concepto de naci?n en aras de los intereses globalizadores, toca a los mexicanos de hoy defender la tierra que nos vio nacer, y a nosotros los Teotihuacanos, en particular, hacerlo con esta privilegiada porci?n de nuestro pa?s donde esta plasmado en pir?mides y monumentos del pasado de M?xico. El pasado de Teotihuacan, que llega hasta nuestro presente en forma de pir?mides, orgullo de M?xico y declarado patrimonio de la humanidad, esta amenazado ahora por proyectos de las fuerzas globalizadoras que empiezan a a?orar con la construcci?n de un centro comercial de una firma transnacional que sin duda servir? de punta de lanza para que mas adelante nuestra tierra se fraccione para la construcci?n de unidades habitacionales que har?n que se escaseen y se encarezcan nuestra agua y los servicios p?blicos de que nos hemos dotado los teotihuacanos poniendo en peligro la subsistencia de las futuras generaciones. Estamos constatando dolorosamente como las autoridades del INAH, imponen a los pobladores del valle onerosas restricci?n y ampliaci?n de sus viviendas pretextando la protecci?n del patrimonio arqueol?gico de la zona, aunque todas las restricciones no se apliquen a los grandes intereses, como en el caso de la construcci?n de la bodega Aurrera por parte de la transnacional Wal Mart en un acuerdo evidente con las autoridades del INAH, del gobierno del Estado de M?xico y del ayuntamiento, que de pronto otorga licencias y permisos para la construcci?n del centro comercial ya mencionado, hemos constatado como esos intereses transnacionales con sus pol?ticas comerciales ma?osas se infiltran en el consumidor mediante precios bajos para acabar con la competencia, para que una vez eliminada establezcan condiciones monop?licas en detrimento del poder adquisitivo de la poblaci?n. Pero si el da?o que representa la desaparici?n de muchos cientos de peque?os y medianos negocios es una amenaza para la econom?a regional, el mayor da?o es el que el dinero que los consumidores gastan en el comercio tradicional vuelve a la econom?a de la regi?n, y se recicla derramando beneficios para toda la poblaci?n mediante la creaci?n de nuevos empleos y de una mayor demanda, pero el dinero gastado en las cadenas transnacionales salen definitivamente del pa?s, dejando un precario remanente para empleados locales, pues los responsables y administradores son regularmente fuere?os. Puesto que la operaci?n de un centro comercial transnacional en Teotihuacan afecta a todos los comercios de la regi?n, que vive precisamente de la actividad comercial, consideramos indispensable defender a toda costa nuestra fuente de trabajo y las formas tradicionales de consumo de nuestras comunidades. Las disposiciones reglamentarias del uso de suelo en el valle de Teotihuacan han impedido hasta ahora el desarrollo de otras industrias que no sean la tur?stica en toda la regi?n por lo tanto no hay suficiente generaci?n de empleo que no sea en la agricultura y en el autoempleo que propicia el peque?o comercio; as? la desaparici?n de dos millares de comercios medianos y peque?os, que traer?a una tienda de autoservicio como la que pretende instalarse en Teotihuacan dejar?a a todo el valle de Teotihuacan econ?micamente inerme, y con desempleo inmanejable que sin duda generar?a desorden social y delincuencia. El temor y la apat?a que en otro tiempo cavaron la tumba de nuestros proyectos ante la coacci?n de la autoridades desp?ticas son cosas del pasado. Hoy la solidaridad en la defensa de lo que es nuestro, nos lleva a luchas hasta la victoria. No nos vamos a quedar con los brazos cruzados viendo a nuestro Teotihuacan irse de nuestras manos, llev?ndose el futuro de nuestros hijos, que tienen que migrar a tierras extra?as buscando mejores oportunidades, abandonando todo, dejando a sus familias y hasta arriesgando la vida para obtener el sustento para su familia. Esta seria la ultima opci?n para muchos teotihuacanos que la desaparecer el peque?o comercio ante el embate de las cadena comerciales se ver?an obligados a emigrar. CONSIDERANDO QUE: 1.-) el INAH, cediendo a las presiones de la empresa Wal Mart testaferro Roberto Ruiz presidente del Consejo Coordinador de Teotihuacan, permitio el inicio de las obras sin un rescate arqueol?gico apegado a las normas de ley (art. 44 del reglamento de la ley federal sobre monumentos y zonas arqueol?gicas, art?sticos e hist?ricos) en un lugar en el que se han realizado hallazgos arqueol?gicos durante las excavaciones para la cimentaci?n del centro comercial. Y a pesar de la afectaci?n que har?n los edificios en construcci?n de la perspectiva del monumento hist?rico y art?stico del siglo XIX denominado " puente del emperador". 2.-) el gobierno del estado de M?xico, por medio de la Secretaria de desarrollo urbano y obra publica ha concedido la licencia de uso de suelo, a pesar de que el plan de desarrollo municipal de Teotihuacan en vigor desde noviembre de 2003 prohibe expresamente la construcci?n de centros comerciales y tiendas departamentales en el espacio clasificado como H833A donde se ha iniciado las obras de Bodega Aurrera, terreno que estaba destinado a la producci?n agr?cola. 3.-) Las autoridades de tr?nsito estatal y federal no han tomado en cuenta el impacto vial que representa el trafico en los alrededores del centro comercial, situado a unos metros de la principal y arteria vial de San Juan Teotihuacan. 4.-) El presidente municipal de Teotihuacan, Guillermo Rodr?guez C?spedes deforma econ?mica, sin mediar petici?n escrita de Wal Mart en un cabildazo hizo aprobar la expedici?n de la licencia de construcci?n sin mediar ni una consulta a la poblaci?n, ni los estudios de impacto del proyecto comercial de esta transnacional, ni la opini?n t?cnica en materia vial, ecol?gica y sanitaria sobre la construcci?n, y operaci?n del centro comercial en cuesti?n. 5.-) Que la sociedad civil por medio de la organizaci?n de las Naciones Ind?genas Unidas A.C. ya se hab?a pronunciado por escrito ante el presidente municipal de teotihuacan, desde el mes de marzo del corriente en contra de la construcci?n de establecimientos comerciales transnacionales de Teotihuacan. MANIFESTAMOS: 1.-) QUE SON A TODAS LUCES ILEGALES LOS PERMISOS Y AUTORIZACIONES OTORGADOS POR EL INAH, EL GOBIERNO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO Y EL AYUNTAMIENTO DE TEOTIHUACAN, RESPECTO A LA CONSTRUCCI?N, OPERACI?N Y USO DE SUELO DE "BODEGA AURRERA" CON DOMICILIO EN CRUZ DE LA MISION NUMERO 8 FRACCIONAMIENTO LA PARROQUIA DE SAN JUAN TEOTIHUACAN MEXICO. 2.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL ORGANIZADA DE TEOTIHUACAN TOMA EN SUS MANOS LA DEFENSA JURIDICA DE SUS LEGITIMOS INTERESES, EN FRANCA CONTRA LA CORRUPCION DE SUS AUTORIDADES. 3.-) QUE LA CONDICION DE CENTRO ESPIRITUAL Y CULTURAL DE MEXICO QUE ATRIBUIMOS LOS MEXICANOS A TEOTIHUACAN, HACE QUE ESTE ASUNTO SEA DE INTERES PARA TODO EL PUEBLO MEXICANO. 4.-) QUE SIENDO TEOTIHUACAN PATRIMONIO CULTURAL DE LA HUMANIDAD EL TEMA EXPUESTO ES DE INTERES INTERNACIONAL. 5.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL TEOTIHUACANA SE RESERVA EL DERECHO DE EJERCER CUALQUIER MEDIDA PARA HACERSE ESCUCHAR Y ATENDER DENTRO DE LOS MARGENES DE LA LEGALIDAD, Y DE ACUERDO CON LAS GARANTIAS QUE LE OTORGAN LAS CONSTITUCIONES POLITICAS DE LOS ESTADOS UNIDOS MEXICANOS Y LA DEL ESTADO LIBRE Y SOBERANO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO. 6.-) QUE AL MARGEN DE LAS RESPONSABILIDADES ADMINISTRATIVAS, CIVILES, PENALES Y/U OTRAS EN LAS QUE PUDIERAN INCURRIR LAS AUTORIDADES MUNICIPALES, ESTATALES Y FEDERALES Y QUE EN SU MOMENTO DENUNCIAREMOS POR LA VIA LEGAL, EMPLAZAMOS A LOS RESPONSABLES FRENTE AL JUICIO DE LA HISTORIA POR LAS AFECTACIONES QUE PRODUZCAN A NUSTRA FORMA DE VIDA Y TRADICIONES EXTRA?AS A NUESTRA CULTURA MEXICANA Y TEOTIHUACANA. 7.-) LA DEFENSA DE NUESTRA AGUA, NUESTRA TIERRA Y DE NUESTRO ESPACIO, ANTE LA CONSTRUCCION Y OPERACI?N PRESENTE O FUTURA DE FRACCIONAMEINTOS DE DESARROLLOS URBANOS Y COMERCIALES, SERA UNA CAUSA POPULAR, INDEPENDIENTE DE LA VOLUNTAD DE LOS GOBIERNOS QUE LOS AUTORICEN. 8.-) QUE DE NO DETENERSE LA CONSTRUCCION DEL CENTRO COMERCIAL, PROMOVEREMOS LA RENUNCIA DEL AYUNTAMIENTO MUNICIPAL DE TEOTIHUACAN. Comit? de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Net: La mejor conexi?n a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smarcos at INFOSEL.NET.MX Sat Sep 4 20:57:44 2004 From: smarcos at INFOSEL.NET.MX (Sylvia Mrcos Tueme) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 14:57:44 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Defensa_de_Teotihuac=E1n?= Message-ID: Si, gracias por proponerlo! Sylvia Marcos ----- Original Message ----- From: Maria To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 12:01 PM Subject: Defensa de Teotihuac?n Amigos: Les estoy transmitiendo la carta que me enviara Alessandra Luiselli, desde Texas. Es muy importante que nos solidaricemos por la defensa de Teotihuacan. No puede ser que les heredemos a nuestros hijos en lugar de una plaza se?orial. Cargada de energ?a, una plaza Walmart, con su consabida carga globalizante de art?culos a bajo precio, productos pl?sticos, ropa de acr?lico y nylon, infinidad de productos de consumo necesario e innecesario. ??til? Ya lo creo que s?. Pero no sobre la cultura ancestral y a un lado de ese portento que muchos visitamos para llenarnos de energ?a y recoger, en pedazos, nuestra identidad pisoteada. Luchemos y, por favor, pell?zquenme para que yo compuebe que estoy dormida. No puede ser que a alg?n pol?tico se le haya ocurrido poner ese Walmart, justamente ah?. ?Recuerden, luchar ni cuesta ni empobrece, ni protestar envejece! M?ndenos su aprobaci?n de inmediato, para incluir su nombre en el desplegado que aparecer? en un diario de alta circulaci?n. Solo tienen que hacer reply, s?, inc?yanme en la l?nea de tema del mensaje o dirigirse a: Alessandra Luiselli: viajeraquevas at yahoo.com.mx Los abrazo. Mar?a Dolores Bol?var En defensa del Valle de Teotihuacan Fecha: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:37:11 -0500 Comit? de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan El sitio arqueol?gico de Teotihuacan, considerado por las naciones unidas como un patrimonio de la humanidad, y uno de los tesoros espirituales y culturales de M?xico, esta siendo acosado por fuerzas globalizadoras. En forma sorpresiva, se ha iniciado la construcci?n de un centro comercial de Wal Mart en las inmediaciones de las pir?mides. Mediante una campa?a de propaganda en bardas y en desplegados en contra del Instituto Nacional de Antropolog?a e Historia, los promotores de este proyecto y sus c?mplices pol?ticos en la regi?n, lograron aparentar que la opini?n publica local esta de acuerdo con que la zona Arqueol?gica se vuelva un bot?n comercial de quien este dispuesto a pagar por medrar con el patrimonio cultural de Teotihuacan, y as? el INAH ha liberado el predio respecto a las restricciones se?aladas por la Ley Federal de Monumentos y zonas arqueol?gicas, art?sticos y culturales en vigor; las autoridades estatales por su parte, otorgaron el permiso de uso de suelo, y las municipales la licencia de construcci?n, para un establecimiento que a todas luces afecta m?ltiples aspectos de la vida de la regi?n del valle de Teotihuacan. El casco urbano de San Juan, la cabecera municipal de donde se lleva el proyecto, tiene como ?nico acceso desde la autopista M?xico- Pir?mides, la Av. Hidalgo donde actualmente el tr?fico es ya muy conflictivo, siendo la arteria principal de la poblaci?n por lo que la presencia de un centro comercial, a escasos metros de esa Av., vendr? a desquiciar la vialidad en todo el pueblo, desde los tr?boles de la autopista hasta el centro. Las obras se est?n llevando a cabo en las inmediaciones de un monumento hist?rico y art?stico, el puente del emperador, al que afectar? visualmente por estar colindante con el centro comercial en construcci?n, afectaci?n que incluye las pir?mides, localizadas a menos de medio kilometro de la pretendida bodega Aurrera. La construcci?n se esta realizando en terrenos de alta productividad agr?cola, en una regi?n donde la poblaci?n mayoritariamente se dedica a la agricultura, y en forma muy importante al comercio, por lo que se considera que la presencia de un establecimiento comercial de gran superficie como el que se pretende producir? un impacto econ?mico nefasto para la mayor?a de los comercios de la regi?n, y que implicara la deformaci?n de los usos y costumbres tradicionales de producci?n y consumo en toda el ?rea de influencia del valle de Teotihuacan, donde sus habitantes est?n ligados por lazos culturales e hist?ricos a sus monumentos prehisp?nicos. Todas las afectaciones referidas para nada a sido puesta en consideraci?n de la poblaci?n, y, en franco desaf?o al principio de municipio libre, el gobierno del Estado de M?xico, pasando por alto originalmente al ayuntamiento otorgo la licencia de uso de suelo y el ayuntamiento, - por encima de la comunidad- la licencia de construcci?n; adem?s de que las autoridades del INAH y las de transito federal y estatal no ha hecho valer las leyes de las que son custodios. La poblaci?n del valle de Teotihuacan ha decidido enfrentar este intento de globalizar este reducto de la historia de M?xico, patrimonio cultural de M?xico y de la humanidad; y apelando a las garant?as que le otorgan las Constituciones de la Rep?blica y la del Estado de M?xico y las Leyes que de ella se desprenden, har?n valer ante las autoridades de los tres niveles de gobierno, de los tres poderes de la uni?n la defensa de sus derechos, denunciando la trama de componendas e intereses que han permitido el inicio de las obras de la bodega Aurrera-WalMart en Teotihuacan. Comit? de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. Teotihuacan de Arista, 15 de agosto de 2004. Mayor informaci?n Circuito Pir?mides s/n Detr?s de la Pir?mide de la luna, con Emma Ortega Moreno tel.01(594) 95 8 23 06 > MANIFIESTO DEL VALLE DE TEOTIHUACAN Mas de 2000 a?os de tradici?n no pueden desaparecer para dar paso al proyecto de globalizaci?n en contra de un pueblo que a cada d?a ve debilitar su econom?a, mientras que los grandes capitales transnacionales amasan cuantiosas fortunas que convierten en d?lares que terminan fuera del pa?s, un pa?s que ha pesar de contar con enormes riquezas y recursos naturales esta convirti?ndose en esclavo de su propia tierra. En este momento amargo de disoluci?n del concepto de naci?n en aras de los intereses globalizadores, toca a los mexicanos de hoy defender la tierra que nos vio nacer, y a nosotros los Teotihuacanos, en particular, hacerlo con esta privilegiada porci?n de nuestro pa?s donde esta plasmado en pir?mides y monumentos del pasado de M?xico. El pasado de Teotihuacan, que llega hasta nuestro presente en forma de pir?mides, orgullo de M?xico y declarado patrimonio de la humanidad, esta amenazado ahora por proyectos de las fuerzas globalizadoras que empiezan a a?orar con la construcci?n de un centro comercial de una firma transnacional que sin duda servir? de punta de lanza para que mas adelante nuestra tierra se fraccione para la construcci?n de unidades habitacionales que har?n que se escaseen y se encarezcan nuestra agua y los servicios p?blicos de que nos hemos dotado los teotihuacanos poniendo en peligro la subsistencia de las futuras generaciones. Estamos constatando dolorosamente como las autoridades del INAH, imponen a los pobladores del valle onerosas restricci?n y ampliaci?n de sus viviendas pretextando la protecci?n del patrimonio arqueol?gico de la zona, aunque todas las restricciones no se apliquen a los grandes intereses, como en el caso de la construcci?n de la bodega Aurrera por parte de la transnacional Wal Mart en un acuerdo evidente con las autoridades del INAH, del gobierno del Estado de M?xico y del ayuntamiento, que de pronto otorga licencias y permisos para la construcci?n del centro comercial ya mencionado, hemos constatado como esos intereses transnacionales con sus pol?ticas comerciales ma?osas se infiltran en el consumidor mediante precios bajos para acabar con la competencia, para que una vez eliminada establezcan condiciones monop?licas en detrimento del poder adquisitivo de la poblaci?n. Pero si el da?o que representa la desaparici?n de muchos cientos de peque?os y medianos negocios es una amenaza para la econom?a regional, el mayor da?o es el que el dinero que los consumidores gastan en el comercio tradicional vuelve a la econom?a de la regi?n, y se recicla derramando beneficios para toda la poblaci?n mediante la creaci?n de nuevos empleos y de una mayor demanda, pero el dinero gastado en las cadenas transnacionales salen definitivamente del pa?s, dejando un precario remanente para empleados locales, pues los responsables y administradores son regularmente fuere?os. Puesto que la operaci?n de un centro comercial transnacional en Teotihuacan afecta a todos los comercios de la regi?n, que vive precisamente de la actividad comercial, consideramos indispensable defender a toda costa nuestra fuente de trabajo y las formas tradicionales de consumo de nuestras comunidades. Las disposiciones reglamentarias del uso de suelo en el valle de Teotihuacan han impedido hasta ahora el desarrollo de otras industrias que no sean la tur?stica en toda la regi?n por lo tanto no hay suficiente generaci?n de empleo que no sea en la agricultura y en el autoempleo que propicia el peque?o comercio; as? la desaparici?n de dos millares de comercios medianos y peque?os, que traer?a una tienda de autoservicio como la que pretende instalarse en Teotihuacan dejar?a a todo el valle de Teotihuacan econ?micamente inerme, y con desempleo inmanejable que sin duda generar?a desorden social y delincuencia. El temor y la apat?a que en otro tiempo cavaron la tumba de nuestros proyectos ante la coacci?n de la autoridades desp?ticas son cosas del pasado. Hoy la solidaridad en la defensa de lo que es nuestro, nos lleva a luchas hasta la victoria. No nos vamos a quedar con los brazos cruzados viendo a nuestro Teotihuacan irse de nuestras manos, llev?ndose el futuro de nuestros hijos, que tienen que migrar a tierras extra?as buscando mejores oportunidades, abandonando todo, dejando a sus familias y hasta arriesgando la vida para obtener el sustento para su familia. Esta seria la ultima opci?n para muchos teotihuacanos que la desaparecer el peque?o comercio ante el embate de las cadena comerciales se ver?an obligados a emigrar. CONSIDERANDO QUE: 1.-) el INAH, cediendo a las presiones de la empresa Wal Mart testaferro Roberto Ruiz presidente del Consejo Coordinador de Teotihuacan, permitio el inicio de las obras sin un rescate arqueol?gico apegado a las normas de ley (art. 44 del reglamento de la ley federal sobre monumentos y zonas arqueol?gicas, art?sticos e hist?ricos) en un lugar en el que se han realizado hallazgos arqueol?gicos durante las excavaciones para la cimentaci?n del centro comercial. Y a pesar de la afectaci?n que har?n los edificios en construcci?n de la perspectiva del monumento hist?rico y art?stico del siglo XIX denominado " puente del emperador". 2.-) el gobierno del estado de M?xico, por medio de la Secretaria de desarrollo urbano y obra publica ha concedido la licencia de uso de suelo, a pesar de que el plan de desarrollo municipal de Teotihuacan en vigor desde noviembre de 2003 prohibe expresamente la construcci?n de centros comerciales y tiendas departamentales en el espacio clasificado como H833A donde se ha iniciado las obras de Bodega Aurrera, terreno que estaba destinado a la producci?n agr?cola. 3.-) Las autoridades de tr?nsito estatal y federal no han tomado en cuenta el impacto vial que representa el trafico en los alrededores del centro comercial, situado a unos metros de la principal y arteria vial de San Juan Teotihuacan. 4.-) El presidente municipal de Teotihuacan, Guillermo Rodr?guez C?spedes deforma econ?mica, sin mediar petici?n escrita de Wal Mart en un cabildazo hizo aprobar la expedici?n de la licencia de construcci?n sin mediar ni una consulta a la poblaci?n, ni los estudios de impacto del proyecto comercial de esta transnacional, ni la opini?n t?cnica en materia vial, ecol?gica y sanitaria sobre la construcci?n, y operaci?n del centro comercial en cuesti?n. 5.-) Que la sociedad civil por medio de la organizaci?n de las Naciones Ind?genas Unidas A.C. ya se hab?a pronunciado por escrito ante el presidente municipal de teotihuacan, desde el mes de marzo del corriente en contra de la construcci?n de establecimientos comerciales transnacionales de Teotihuacan. MANIFESTAMOS: 1.-) QUE SON A TODAS LUCES ILEGALES LOS PERMISOS Y AUTORIZACIONES OTORGADOS POR EL INAH, EL GOBIERNO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO Y EL AYUNTAMIENTO DE TEOTIHUACAN, RESPECTO A LA CONSTRUCCI?N, OPERACI?N Y USO DE SUELO DE "BODEGA AURRERA" CON DOMICILIO EN CRUZ DE LA MISION NUMERO 8 FRACCIONAMIENTO LA PARROQUIA DE SAN JUAN TEOTIHUACAN MEXICO. 2.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL ORGANIZADA DE TEOTIHUACAN TOMA EN SUS MANOS LA DEFENSA JURIDICA DE SUS LEGITIMOS INTERESES, EN FRANCA CONTRA LA CORRUPCION DE SUS AUTORIDADES. 3.-) QUE LA CONDICION DE CENTRO ESPIRITUAL Y CULTURAL DE MEXICO QUE ATRIBUIMOS LOS MEXICANOS A TEOTIHUACAN, HACE QUE ESTE ASUNTO SEA DE INTERES PARA TODO EL PUEBLO MEXICANO. 4.-) QUE SIENDO TEOTIHUACAN PATRIMONIO CULTURAL DE LA HUMANIDAD EL TEMA EXPUESTO ES DE INTERES INTERNACIONAL. 5.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL TEOTIHUACANA SE RESERVA EL DERECHO DE EJERCER CUALQUIER MEDIDA PARA HACERSE ESCUCHAR Y ATENDER DENTRO DE LOS MARGENES DE LA LEGALIDAD, Y DE ACUERDO CON LAS GARANTIAS QUE LE OTORGAN LAS CONSTITUCIONES POLITICAS DE LOS ESTADOS UNIDOS MEXICANOS Y LA DEL ESTADO LIBRE Y SOBERANO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO. 6.-) QUE AL MARGEN DE LAS RESPONSABILIDADES ADMINISTRATIVAS, CIVILES, PENALES Y/U OTRAS EN LAS QUE PUDIERAN INCURRIR LAS AUTORIDADES MUNICIPALES, ESTATALES Y FEDERALES Y QUE EN SU MOMENTO DENUNCIAREMOS POR LA VIA LEGAL, EMPLAZAMOS A LOS RESPONSABLES FRENTE AL JUICIO DE LA HISTORIA POR LAS AFECTACIONES QUE PRODUZCAN A NUSTRA FORMA DE VIDA Y TRADICIONES EXTRA?AS A NUESTRA CULTURA MEXICANA Y TEOTIHUACANA. 7.-) LA DEFENSA DE NUESTRA AGUA, NUESTRA TIERRA Y DE NUESTRO ESPACIO, ANTE LA CONSTRUCCION Y OPERACI?N PRESENTE O FUTURA DE FRACCIONAMEINTOS DE DESARROLLOS URBANOS Y COMERCIALES, SERA UNA CAUSA POPULAR, INDEPENDIENTE DE LA VOLUNTAD DE LOS GOBIERNOS QUE LOS AUTORICEN. 8.-) QUE DE NO DETENERSE LA CONSTRUCCION DEL CENTRO COMERCIAL, PROMOVEREMOS LA RENUNCIA DEL AYUNTAMIENTO MUNICIPAL DE TEOTIHUACAN. Comit? de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trottolo2001 at INWIND.IT Mon Sep 6 07:08:41 2004 From: trottolo2001 at INWIND.IT (trottolo2001@inwind.it) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 09:08:41 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?b?UmU6IERlZmVuc2FfZGVfVGVvdGlodWFj4W4A?= Message-ID: S?, inc?yanme en la l?nea de tema del mensaje > > > Hola > > Te saludo y me uno a lista por la defensa de Teotihuacan. Por desgracia no est?s dormida, el capitalismo, ahora en su etapa neoliberal sigue siendo destructor de todas y cualquier cultura cuya l?gica no sea la acumulaci?n de capital; los pol?ticos mexicanos son incultos, vanidosos y tontos, o mesquinos, no se. No se les ocurre, por ejemplo, proponer la creaci?n de un hotel tipo colonial en Acolman o fuera de San Juan Teotihuacan que pudiera atraer turismo o un corredor turistico que abarcara toda la zona y cuyos ingresos sirvieran para dar mantenimiento a las pir?mides y otras construcciones. Es triste, muy triste, ojal? y logremos evitar esta agresi?n a una de las muestras m?s ricas de la cultura prehisp?nica. > > Ma. de los ?ngeles Sanchez Noriega A. > > > > Maria wrote: > st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } > Amigos: > > Les estoy transmitiendo la carta que me enviara Alessandra Luiselli, desde Texas. Es muy importante que nos solidaricemos por la defensa de Teotihuacan. No puede ser que les heredemos a nuestros hijos en lugar de una plaza se?orial. Cargada de energ?a, una plaza Walmart, con su consabida carga globalizante de art?culos a bajo precio, productos pl?sticos, ropa de acr?lico y nylon, infinidad de productos de consumo necesario e innecesario. ??til? Ya lo creo que s?. Pero no sobre la cultura ancestral y a un lado de ese portento que muchos visitamos para llenarnos de energ?a y recoger, en pedazos, nuestra identidad pisoteada. Luchemos y, por favor, pell?zquenme para que yo compuebe que estoy dormida. No puede ser que a alg?n pol?tico se le haya ocurrido poner ese Walmart, justamente ah?. ?Recuerden, luchar ni cuesta ni empobrece, ni protestar envejece! M?ndenos su aprobaci?n de inmediato, para incluir su nombre en el desplegado que aparecer? en un diario de alta circulaci?n. Solo tienen > que hacer reply, s?, inc?yanme en la l?nea de tema del mensaje o dirigirse a: > > > > Alessandra Luiselli: viajeraquevas at yahoo.com.mx > > > > Los abrazo. > > Mar?a Dolores Bol?var > > > > > > En defensa del Valle de Teotihuacan > > > > Fecha: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:37:11 -0500 > > > > Comit? de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan > > > > El sitio arqueol?gico de Teotihuacan, considerado > > por las naciones unidas como un patrimonio de la > > humanidad, y uno de los tesoros espirituales y > > culturales de M?xico, esta siendo acosado por > > fuerzas globalizadoras. En forma sorpresiva, se > > ha iniciado la construcci?n de un centro > > comercial de Wal Mart en las inmediaciones de las > > pir?mides. > > > > Mediante una campa?a de propaganda en bardas y en > > desplegados en contra del Instituto Nacional de > > Antropolog?a e Historia, los promotores de este > > proyecto y sus c?mplices pol?ticos en la regi?n, > > lograron aparentar que la opini?n publica local > > esta de acuerdo con que la zona Arqueol?gica se > > vuelva un bot?n comercial de quien este dispuesto > > a pagar por medrar con el patrimonio cultural de > > Teotihuacan, y as? el INAH ha liberado el predio > > respecto a las restricciones se?aladas por la Ley > > Federal de Monumentos y zonas arqueol?gicas, > > art?sticos y culturales en vigor; las autoridades > > estatales por su parte, otorgaron el permiso de > > uso de suelo, y > > las municipales la licencia de construcci?n, para > > un establecimiento que a todas luces afecta > > m?ltiples aspectos de la vida de la regi?n del > > valle de Teotihuacan. > > > > El casco urbano de San Juan, la cabecera > > municipal de donde se lleva el proyecto, tiene > > como ?nico acceso desde la autopista M?xico- > > Pir?mides, la Av. Hidalgo donde actualmente el > > tr?fico es ya muy conflictivo, siendo la arteria > > principal de la poblaci?n por lo que la presencia > > de un centro comercial, a escasos metros de esa > > Av., vendr? a desquiciar la vialidad en todo el > > pueblo, desde los > > tr?boles de la autopista hasta el centro. > > > > Las obras se est?n llevando a cabo en las > > inmediaciones de un monumento hist?rico y > > art?stico, el puente del emperador, al que > > afectar? visualmente por estar colindante con el > > centro comercial en construcci?n, afectaci?n que > > incluye las pir?mides, localizadas a menos de > > medio kilometro de la pretendida bodega Aurrera. > > > > La construcci?n se esta realizando en terrenos de > > alta productividad agr?cola, en una regi?n donde > > la poblaci?n mayoritariamente se dedica a la > > agricultura, y en forma muy importante al > > comercio, por lo que se considera que la > > presencia de un establecimiento comercial de gran > > superficie como el que se pretende producir? un > > impacto econ?mico nefasto para la mayor?a de los > > comercios de la regi?n, y que implicara la > > deformaci?n de los usos y > > costumbres tradicionales de producci?n y consumo > > en toda el ?rea de influencia del valle de > > Teotihuacan, donde sus habitantes est?n ligados > > por lazos culturales e hist?ricos a sus > > monumentos prehisp?nicos. > > > > Todas las afectaciones referidas para nada a sido > > puesta en consideraci?n de la poblaci?n, y, en > > franco desaf?o al principio de municipio libre, > > el gobierno del Estado de M?xico, pasando por > > alto originalmente al ayuntamiento otorgo la > > licencia de uso de suelo y el ayuntamiento, - por > > encima de la comunidad- la licencia de > > construcci?n; adem?s de que las autoridades del > > INAH y las de transito federal y estatal no ha > > hecho valer las leyes de las que son custodios. > > > > La poblaci?n del valle de Teotihuacan ha decidido > > enfrentar este intento de globalizar este reducto > > de la historia de M?xico, patrimonio cultural de > > M?xico y de la humanidad; y apelando a las > > garant?as que le otorgan las Constituciones de la > > Rep?blica y la del > > Estado de M?xico y las Leyes que de ella se > > desprenden, har?n valer ante las autoridades de > > los tres niveles de gobierno, de los tres poderes > > de la uni?n la defensa de sus derechos, > > denunciando la trama de componendas e intereses > > que han permitido el inicio de las obras de la > > bodega Aurrera-WalMart en Teotihuacan. > > > > Comit? de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. > > Teotihuacan de Arista, 15 de agosto de 2004. > > Mayor informaci?n Circuito Pir?mides s/n Detr?s > > de la Pir?mide de la luna, con Emma Ortega Moreno > > > > tel.01(594) 95 8 23 06 > > > > > MANIFIESTO DEL VALLE DE TEOTIHUACAN > > > > Mas de 2000 a?os de tradici?n no pueden > > desaparecer para dar paso al proyecto de > > globalizaci?n en contra de un pueblo que a cada > > d?a ve debilitar su econom?a, mientras que los > > grandes capitales transnacionales amasan > > cuantiosas fortunas que convierten en d?lares que > > terminan fuera del pa?s, un pa?s que ha pesar de > > contar con enormes riquezas > > y recursos naturales esta convirti?ndose en > > esclavo de su propia tierra. > > > > En este momento amargo de disoluci?n del concepto > > de naci?n en aras de los intereses > > globalizadores, toca a los mexicanos de hoy > > defender la tierra que nos vio nacer, y a > > nosotros los Teotihuacanos, en particular, > > hacerlo con esta privilegiada porci?n de > > nuestro pa?s donde esta plasmado en pir?mides y > > monumentos del pasado de M?xico. > > > > El pasado de Teotihuacan, que llega hasta nuestro > > presente en forma de pir?mides, orgullo de M?xico > > y declarado patrimonio de la humanidad, esta > > amenazado ahora por proyectos de las fuerzas > > globalizadoras que empiezan a a?orar con la > > construcci?n de un centro comercial de una firma > > transnacional que sin duda servir? de punta de > > lanza para que mas adelante nuestra tierra se > > fraccione para la construcci?n de > > unidades habitacionales que har?n que se escaseen > > y se encarezcan nuestra agua y los servicios > > p?blicos de que nos hemos dotado los > > teotihuacanos poniendo en peligro la subsistencia > > de las futuras generaciones. > > > > Estamos constatando dolorosamente como las > > autoridades del INAH, imponen a los pobladores > > del valle onerosas restricci?n y ampliaci?n de > > sus viviendas pretextando la protecci?n del > > patrimonio arqueol?gico de la zona, aunque todas > > las restricciones no se apliquen a los grandes > > intereses, como en el caso de la construcci?n de > > la bodega Aurrera por parte de la transnacional > > Wal Mart en un acuerdo evidente con las > > autoridades del INAH, del gobierno del Estado de > > M?xico y del ayuntamiento, que de pronto otorga > > licencias y permisos para la construcci?n del > > centro comercial ya mencionado, hemos constatado > > como esos intereses transnacionales con sus > > pol?ticas comerciales ma?osas se infiltran en el > > consumidor mediante precios bajos para acabar con > > la competencia, para que una vez eliminada > > establezcan condiciones monop?licas en detrimento > > del poder adquisitivo de la poblaci?n. > > > > Pero si el da?o que representa la desaparici?n de > > muchos cientos de peque?os y medianos negocios es > > una amenaza para la econom?a regional, el mayor > > da?o es el que el dinero que los consumidores > > gastan en el comercio tradicional vuelve a la > > econom?a de la regi?n, y se recicla derramando > > beneficios para toda la poblaci?n mediante la > > creaci?n de nuevos empleos y de una mayor > > demanda, pero el dinero gastado en las cadenas > > transnacionales salen definitivamente del pa?s, > > dejando un precario remanente para empleados > > locales, pues los responsables y administradores > > son regularmente fuere?os. > > > > Puesto que la operaci?n de un centro comercial > > transnacional en Teotihuacan afecta a todos los > > comercios de la regi?n, que vive precisamente de > > la actividad comercial, consideramos > > indispensable defender a toda costa nuestra > > fuente de trabajo y las formas tradicionales de > > consumo de nuestras comunidades. > > > > Las disposiciones reglamentarias del uso de suelo > > en el valle de Teotihuacan han impedido hasta > > ahora el desarrollo de otras industrias que no > > sean la tur?stica en toda la regi?n por lo tanto > > no hay suficiente generaci?n de empleo que no sea > > en la agricultura y en el autoempleo que propicia > > el peque?o comercio; as? la desaparici?n de dos > > millares de comercios medianos y peque?os, que > > traer?a una tienda de autoservicio como la que > > pretende instalarse en Teotihuacan dejar?a a todo > > el valle de Teotihuacan econ?micamente inerme, y > > con desempleo inmanejable que sin duda generar?a > > desorden social y delincuencia. > > > > El temor y la apat?a que en otro tiempo cavaron > > la tumba de nuestros proyectos ante la coacci?n > > de la autoridades desp?ticas son cosas del > > pasado. Hoy la solidaridad en la defensa de lo > > que es nuestro, nos lleva a luchas hasta la > > victoria. No nos vamos a quedar con los brazos > > cruzados viendo a nuestro Teotihuacan irse de > > nuestras manos, llev?ndose el futuro de nuestros > > hijos, que tienen que migrar a tierras extra?as > > buscando mejores oportunidades, abandonando todo, > > dejando a sus familias y hasta arriesgando la > > vida para obtener el sustento para su > > familia. Esta seria la ultima opci?n para muchos > > teotihuacanos que la desaparecer el peque?o > > comercio ante el embate de las cadena comerciales > > se ver?an obligados a emigrar. > > > > CONSIDERANDO QUE: > > > > 1.-) el INAH, cediendo a las presiones de la > > empresa Wal Mart testaferro Roberto Ruiz > > presidente del Consejo Coordinador de > > Teotihuacan, permitio el inicio de las obras sin > > un rescate arqueol?gico apegado a las normas de > > ley (art. 44 del reglamento de la ley federal > > sobre monumentos y zonas arqueol?gicas, > > art?sticos e hist?ricos) en un lugar en el que se > > han realizado hallazgos arqueol?gicos > > durante las excavaciones para la cimentaci?n del > > centro comercial. Y a pesar de la afectaci?n que > > har?n los edificios en construcci?n de la > > perspectiva del monumento hist?rico y art?stico > > del siglo XIX denominado " puente del emperador". > > > > > > 2.-) el gobierno del estado de M?xico, por medio > > de la Secretaria de desarrollo urbano y obra > > publica ha concedido la licencia de uso de suelo, > > a pesar de que el plan de desarrollo municipal de > > Teotihuacan en vigor desde noviembre de 2003 > > prohibe expresamente la construcci?n de centros > > comerciales y tiendas departamentales en el > > espacio clasificado > > como H833A donde se ha iniciado las obras de > > Bodega Aurrera, terreno que estaba destinado a la > > producci?n agr?cola. > > > > 3.-) Las autoridades de tr?nsito estatal y > > federal no han tomado en cuenta el impacto vial > > que representa el trafico en los alrededores del > > centro comercial, situado a unos metros de la > > principal y arteria vial de San Juan Teotihuacan. > > > > > > 4.-) El presidente municipal de Teotihuacan, > > Guillermo Rodr?guez C?spedes deforma econ?mica, > > sin mediar petici?n escrita de Wal Mart en un > > cabildazo hizo aprobar la expedici?n de la > > licencia de construcci?n sin mediar ni una > > consulta a la poblaci?n, ni los estudios de > > impacto del proyecto comercial de esta > > transnacional, ni la opini?n t?cnica en materia > > vial, ecol?gica y sanitaria sobre la > > construcci?n, y operaci?n del centro comercial en > > cuesti?n. > > > > 5.-) Que la sociedad civil por medio de la > > organizaci?n de las Naciones Ind?genas Unidas > > A.C. ya se hab?a pronunciado por escrito ante el > > presidente municipal de teotihuacan, desde el mes > > de marzo del corriente en contra de la > > construcci?n de establecimientos comerciales > > transnacionales de Teotihuacan. > > > > MANIFESTAMOS: > > > > 1.-) QUE SON A TODAS LUCES ILEGALES LOS PERMISOS > > Y AUTORIZACIONES OTORGADOS POR EL INAH, EL > > GOBIERNO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO Y EL AYUNTAMIENTO > > DE TEOTIHUACAN, RESPECTO A LA CONSTRUCCI?N, > > OPERACI?N Y USO DE SUELO DE "BODEGA AURRERA" CON > > DOMICILIO EN CRUZ DE LA MISION NUMERO 8 > > FRACCIONAMIENTO LA PARROQUIA DE SAN JUAN > > TEOTIHUACAN MEXICO. > > > > 2.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL ORGANIZADA DE > > TEOTIHUACAN TOMA EN SUS MANOS LA DEFENSA JURIDICA > > DE SUS LEGITIMOS INTERESES, EN FRANCA CONTRA LA > > CORRUPCION DE SUS AUTORIDADES. > > > > 3.-) QUE LA CONDICION DE CENTRO ESPIRITUAL Y > > CULTURAL DE MEXICO QUE ATRIBUIMOS LOS MEXICANOS A > > TEOTIHUACAN, HACE QUE ESTE ASUNTO SEA DE INTERES > > PARA TODO EL PUEBLO MEXICANO. > > > > 4.-) QUE SIENDO TEOTIHUACAN PATRIMONIO CULTURAL > > DE LA HUMANIDAD EL TEMA EXPUESTO ES DE INTERES > > INTERNACIONAL. > > > > 5.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL TEOTIHUACANA SE > > RESERVA EL DERECHO DE EJERCER CUALQUIER MEDIDA > > PARA HACERSE ESCUCHAR Y ATENDER DENTRO DE LOS > > MARGENES DE LA LEGALIDAD, Y DE ACUERDO CON LAS > > GARANTIAS QUE LE OTORGAN LAS CONSTITUCIONES > > POLITICAS DE LOS ESTADOS UNIDOS MEXICANOS Y LA > > DEL ESTADO LIBRE Y SOBERANO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO. > > > > > > 6.-) QUE AL MARGEN DE LAS RESPONSABILIDADES > > ADMINISTRATIVAS, CIVILES, PENALES Y/U OTRAS EN > > LAS QUE PUDIERAN INCURRIR LAS AUTORIDADES > > MUNICIPALES, ESTATALES Y FEDERALES Y QUE EN SU > > MOMENTO DENUNCIAREMOS POR LA VIA LEGAL, > > EMPLAZAMOS A LOS RESPONSABLES FRENTE AL JUICIO DE > > LA HISTORIA POR LAS AFECTACIONES QUE PRODUZCAN A > > NUSTRA FORMA DE VIDA Y TRADICIONES EXTRA?AS A > > NUESTRA CULTURA MEXICANA Y > > TEOTIHUACANA. > > > > 7.-) LA DEFENSA DE NUESTRA AGUA, NUESTRA TIERRA Y > > DE NUESTRO ESPACIO, ANTE LA CONSTRUCCION Y > > OPERACI?N PRESENTE O FUTURA DE FRACCIONAMEINTOS > > DE DESARROLLOS URBANOS Y COMERCIALES, SERA UNA > > CAUSA POPULAR, INDEPENDIENTE DE LA VOLUNTAD DE > > LOS GOBIERNOS QUE LOS AUTORICEN. > > > > 8.-) QUE DE NO DETENERSE LA CONSTRUCCION DEL > > CENTRO COMERCIAL, PROMOVEREMOS LA RENUNCIA DEL > > AYUNTAMIENTO MUNICIPAL DE TEOTIHUACAN. > > > > Comit? de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Net: La mejor conexi?n a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes. > From jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Mon Sep 6 17:33:34 2004 From: jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9?= Rabasa) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:33:34 -0700 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Defensa=5Fde=5FTeotihuac=E1n?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > S?, inc?yanme en la l?nea de tema del mensaje From ian.robertson at ASU.EDU Tue Sep 7 17:20:47 2004 From: ian.robertson at ASU.EDU (Ian Robertson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:20:47 -0700 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I expect this is old news to lots of you, but I have just become aware of a Nahuatl-English/English-Nahuatl dictionary by Fermin Herrera and published by Hippocrene books in 2003. Has anyone seen this dictionary and/or have any comments to make about it? Don't know how I missed it... Thanks, Ian Ian G. Robertson Department of Anthropology Arizona State University Tempe, AZ 85287-2402 phone: 480-965-5110 fax: 480-965-7671 From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Tue Sep 7 17:58:34 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:58:34 -0400 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <200409071721.i87HLx71021329@smtp.asu.edu> Message-ID: I just wrote a review of it in an article evaluating a number of recent books intended to facilitate Nahuatl studies. The review article has been submitted to the journal Ethnohistory. I am not sure how long it will be before it appears in print. Frances Karttunen On Sep 7, 2004, at 1:20 PM, Ian Robertson wrote: > I expect this is old news to lots of you, but I have just become aware > of a > Nahuatl-English/English-Nahuatl dictionary by Fermin Herrera and > published > by Hippocrene books in 2003. Has > anyone > seen this dictionary and/or have any comments to make about it? Don't > know > how I missed it... > > Thanks, Ian > > Ian G. Robertson > Department of Anthropology > Arizona State University > Tempe, AZ 85287-2402 > > phone: 480-965-5110 > fax: 480-965-7671 > From micc2 at COX.NET Tue Sep 7 20:48:42 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:48:42 -0700 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <200409071721.i87HLx71021329@smtp.asu.edu> Message-ID: My experience has been less than exciting. Since when did the Nahuas have a word for Czechoslovakia? (Checotlahtocayotl) auditorium? (nenonotzaloyan, tlacacoyan) American....analyze...anthropologist.... I think that this series of dictionaries gives the authors a certain list of words that they must find a gloss. You can see that the sentiment is if not universal, at least it is a majority view since you can find the book on Abebooks.com for about $10.00 now. Ian Robertson wrote: >I expect this is old news to lots of you, but I have just become aware of a >Nahuatl-English/English-Nahuatl dictionary by Fermin Herrera and published >by Hippocrene books in 2003. Has anyone >seen this dictionary and/or have any comments to make about it? Don't know >how I missed it... > >Thanks, Ian > >Ian G. Robertson >Department of Anthropology >Arizona State University >Tempe, AZ 85287-2402 > >phone: 480-965-5110 >fax: 480-965-7671 > > > From tepeyac at MINDSPRING.COM Tue Sep 7 21:07:45 2004 From: tepeyac at MINDSPRING.COM (Robert Michael Robinson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:07:45 -0400 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <413E1EAA.3080501@cox.net> Message-ID: micc2 wrote: > My experience has been less than exciting. > > Since when did the Nahuas have a word for Czechoslovakia? > (Checotlahtocayotl) auditorium? (nenonotzaloyan, tlacacoyan) > American....analyze...anthropologist.... > > I think that this series of dictionaries gives the authors a certain > list of words that they must find a gloss. > > You can see that the sentiment is if not universal, at least it is a > majority view since you can find the book on Abebooks.com for about > $10.00 now. > > > > > > Ian Robertson wrote: > >> I expect this is old news to lots of you, but I have just become >> aware of a >> Nahuatl-English/English-Nahuatl dictionary by Fermin Herrera and >> published >> by Hippocrene books in 2003. Has anyone >> seen this dictionary and/or have any comments to make about it? Don't >> know >> how I missed it... >> >> Thanks, Ian >> >> Ian G. Robertson >> Department of Anthropology >> Arizona State University >> Tempe, AZ 85287-2402 >> >> phone: 480-965-5110 >> fax: 480-965-7671 >> >> >> > Listeros and Listeras, It is important to recall that Nahuatl is not a dead language. We may choose to emphasize Classical Nahuatl, the language is still a living one. One of the advantages of this group is that many of the members are doing very serious investigations of modern nahuatl. One of the joys of living in New York is the chance to try out my very broken Nahuatl while ordering a sandwich in a deli. For these men it is a living language with modern words. I have also sat with people in Mexico who were explaining the proper word for coffee to me, drink-that-prevents-sleep. I believe there is a serious attempt to express things in Nahuatl without borrowing words. I am sure that there are scholars in this group are much more qualified than I to comment on this and hope we get a lively discussion going. hasta moxtla R M Robinson From no_doyohn at YAHOO.COM Tue Sep 7 21:22:05 2004 From: no_doyohn at YAHOO.COM (Stef) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 14:22:05 -0700 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <413E2321.3050602@mindspring.com> Message-ID: I think Robert is right. It is a still existing and living language and therefore there need to be words for things or countries in our modern world. If it wouldnt be given the chance to develop new expressions it wouldn`t be used very often in the future. Whenever you talk about the daily life nowadays you`ll have to use modern words sooner or later and using only the "old" vocabulary would limit the conversation pretty much I think. At least that`s my opinion. When looking for a dictionary you need to know what`s important for you, since I study language and cultural sciences I learned that pretty quickly. I`m not too happy with modern words in an ancient language like Latin for example when I read a text using words like aeroplanus and so on. But since this languge is still used, I think it`s good. I really appreciate that micc2 gave some info on that though. Since I?m always looking for new books too. Ye ixquich, Stefanie Robert Michael Robinson wrote: micc2 wrote: > My experience has been less than exciting. > > Since when did the Nahuas have a word for Czechoslovakia? > (Checotlahtocayotl) auditorium? (nenonotzaloyan, tlacacoyan) > American....analyze...anthropologist.... > > I think that this series of dictionaries gives the authors a certain > list of words that they must find a gloss. > > You can see that the sentiment is if not universal, at least it is a > majority view since you can find the book on Abebooks.com for about > $10.00 now. > > > > > > Ian Robertson wrote: > >> I expect this is old news to lots of you, but I have just become >> aware of a >> Nahuatl-English/English-Nahuatl dictionary by Fermin Herrera and >> published >> by Hippocrene books in 2003. Has anyone >> seen this dictionary and/or have any comments to make about it? Don't >> know >> how I missed it... >> >> Thanks, Ian >> >> Ian G. Robertson >> Department of Anthropology >> Arizona State University >> Tempe, AZ 85287-2402 >> >> phone: 480-965-5110 >> fax: 480-965-7671 >> >> >> > Listeros and Listeras, It is important to recall that Nahuatl is not a dead language. We may choose to emphasize Classical Nahuatl, the language is still a living one. One of the advantages of this group is that many of the members are doing very serious investigations of modern nahuatl. One of the joys of living in New York is the chance to try out my very broken Nahuatl while ordering a sandwich in a deli. For these men it is a living language with modern words. I have also sat with people in Mexico who were explaining the proper word for coffee to me, drink-that-prevents-sleep. I believe there is a serious attempt to express things in Nahuatl without borrowing words. I am sure that there are scholars in this group are much more qualified than I to comment on this and hope we get a lively discussion going. hasta moxtla R M Robinson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micc2 at COX.NET Tue Sep 7 21:22:47 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 14:22:47 -0700 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <413E2321.3050602@mindspring.com> Message-ID: "... I have also sat with people in Mexico who were explaining the proper word for coffee to me, drink-that-prevents-sleep. I believe there is a serious attempt to express things in Nahuatl without borrowing words. ..." I believe that there are times when creating non "borrowed" words becomes elitist. Such as when the French want to get rid of "le week end" in French or Spanish speakers want to use correo electronico instead of "email" my experience has been with spanish speakers (here on the frontera) and my Nahuatl friends from Veracruz that most people opt for the least amount of syllables. Thus technology usually keeps the terms from the society it came from (like tomatl, chocolatl in the 16th century as they went to the rest of the world) Robert Michael Robinson wrote: > micc2 wrote: > >> My experience has been less than exciting. >> >> Since when did the Nahuas have a word for Czechoslovakia? >> (Checotlahtocayotl) auditorium? (nenonotzaloyan, tlacacoyan) >> American....analyze...anthropologist.... >> >> I think that this series of dictionaries gives the authors a certain >> list of words that they must find a gloss. >> >> You can see that the sentiment is if not universal, at least it is a >> majority view since you can find the book on Abebooks.com for about >> $10.00 now. >> >> >> >> >> >> Ian Robertson wrote: >> >>> I expect this is old news to lots of you, but I have just become >>> aware of a >>> Nahuatl-English/English-Nahuatl dictionary by Fermin Herrera and >>> published >>> by Hippocrene books in 2003. Has >>> anyone >>> seen this dictionary and/or have any comments to make about it? Don't >>> know >>> how I missed it... >>> >>> Thanks, Ian >>> >>> Ian G. Robertson >>> Department of Anthropology >>> Arizona State University >>> Tempe, AZ 85287-2402 >>> >>> phone: 480-965-5110 >>> fax: 480-965-7671 >>> >>> >>> >> > Listeros and Listeras, > It is important to recall that Nahuatl is not a dead language. > We may choose to emphasize Classical Nahuatl, the language is still a > living one. > One of the advantages of this group is that many of the members are > doing very serious investigations of modern nahuatl. > One of the joys of living in New York is the chance to try out my very > broken Nahuatl while ordering a sandwich in a deli. For these men it is > a living language with modern words. I have also sat with people in > Mexico who were explaining the proper word for coffee to me, > drink-that-prevents-sleep. I believe there is a serious attempt to > express things in Nahuatl without borrowing words. > > I am sure that there are scholars in this group are much more qualified > than I to comment on this and hope we get a lively discussion going. > > hasta moxtla > > R M Robinson > From micc2 at COX.NET Tue Sep 7 21:34:25 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 14:34:25 -0700 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <20040907212205.32750.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tlazcamati for your words Stephanie, I just think that we should be careful of creating words that will never be used by the "common folk" It is easy to create words that will serve no purpose except to show how adroit a person is at manipulating a language. especially when beginners like me are taught these "new words" as canonical words that imply wide usage, we might end up talking nonsense to native speakers who might look at us with bemusement. Many years ago a "nahuatl teacher" told me that to say "tren" (train) you said: tepuztelollotl. I said this word once to another Nahuatl speaker, one who did not put himself out there as a "maestro" and she said I had just said " it is a metal corncob"......hmmmm...... From no_doyohn at YAHOO.COM Tue Sep 7 22:02:05 2004 From: no_doyohn at YAHOO.COM (Stef) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:02:05 -0700 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <413E2961.1070703@cox.net> Message-ID: ouch, how annoying. I absolutely agree on that ! This kind of vocabulary must be clearly defined and taught as an attempt to create a wider range of vocabulary for new things and not as common used words. That`s a good example of how languages should not be taught. micc2 wrote: Tlazcamati for your words Stephanie, I just think that we should be careful of creating words that will never be used by the "common folk" It is easy to create words that will serve no purpose except to show how adroit a person is at manipulating a language. especially when beginners like me are taught these "new words" as canonical words that imply wide usage, we might end up talking nonsense to native speakers who might look at us with bemusement. Many years ago a "nahuatl teacher" told me that to say "tren" (train) you said: tepuztelollotl. I said this word once to another Nahuatl speaker, one who did not put himself out there as a "maestro" and she said I had just said " it is a metal corncob"......hmmmm...... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Sep 7 23:12:49 2004 From: jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (jrabasa at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:12:49 -0700 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <20040907220205.15758.qmail@web11109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The European production of words in the sixteenth century to name and describe American things and people led to phenomena not unlike "it is a metal corncob." Read, for example, Oviedo's entry on the pineapple, la pi?a, in the HISTORIA NATURAL DE LAS INDIAS (ca 1547) and you will find an alternation between "pi?a" as in pine cones and "alcarchofa." The description of flavor bursts into tutti-frutti. The coining of new words need not be transparent at first. The principle should be that Nahuatl is an incredibly resourceful and elegant language that can invent terms for the most contemporary objects. >ouch, how annoying. I absolutely agree on that ! >This kind of vocabulary must be clearly defined and taught as an >attempt to create a wider range of vocabulary for new things and not >as common used words. That`s a good example of how languages should >not be taught. > >micc2 wrote: > >Tlazcamati for your words Stephanie, > >I just think that we should be careful of creating words that will never >be used by the "common folk" It is easy to create words that will >serve no purpose >except to show how adroit a person is at manipulating a language. > >especially when beginners like me are taught these "new words" as >canonical words that imply wide usage, we might end up alking nonsense >to native speakers who might look at us with bemusement. > >Many years ago a "nahuatl teacher" told me that to say "tren" (train) >you said: tepuztelollotl. I said this word once to another Nahuatl >speaker, one who did not >put himself out there as a "maestro" and she said I had just said " >it is a metal corncob"......hmmmm...... > > >Do you Yahoo!? >Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! >Enter >now. -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Tue Sep 7 23:33:17 2004 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 19:33:17 EDT Subject: Hippocrene dictionary Message-ID: Listeros: Once again I am impressed by the thoughtful openmindedness of many of the people on this list. I very much look forward to reading Fran's review (see below) but am reminded of a comment someone much wiser than I made about language: 'the only perfect language is a dead one.' That is, once a language is no longer actively used then there is always someone who fixes upon some 'high culture' definition of what constituted that now-no-longer-spoken language, makes its conventions the standard for all other varieties, and then attempts to foist this somewhat (not always completely) arbitrary choice on everyone else who wants to study that language. I am rather focused on the 16th to 19th century varieties of Nahuatl (as expressed in docs) but am very mindful and appreciative of what others have been, or are, doing. For example, I think Jonathan Amith's upcoming publication is going to be a major help for folks like me. The more the merrier. And my sincere thanks to all of you who help keep Nahuatl, in all its many spoken and written forms, a living language. Oannechmocnelilitzinoque, otlacauhqui in amochalchiuhyollotzin. Ye ixquich. Barry D. Sell In a message dated 9/7/04 11:16:18 AM, karttu at NANTUCKET.NET writes: > I just wrote a review of it in an article evaluating a number of recent > books intended to facilitate Nahuatl studies.? The review article has > been submitted to the journal Ethnohistory. I am not sure how long it > will be before it appears in print. > > Frances Karttunen > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From macuil2 at MSN.COM Wed Sep 8 05:48:55 2004 From: macuil2 at MSN.COM (Raul macuil martinez) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 07:48:55 +0200 Subject: Defensa_de_Teotihuacn Message-ID: Incluyanme en la l?nea del mensaje. No se dejen que ocurra lo que sucedi? en Tlaxcala, por la Construcci?n de una Bodega Aurrera, se afectaron a muchos comerciantes del Inmemorial Mercado de Ocotelulco, Tlaxcala. >From: "trottolo2001 at inwind.it" >Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >Subject: Re: Defensa_de_Teotihuac?n >Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 09:08:41 +0200 > > S?, inc?yanme en la l?nea de tema del mensaje > > > > > > > > > Hola > > > > Te saludo y me uno a lista por la defensa de Teotihuacan. Por desgracia >no est?s dormida, el capitalismo, ahora en su etapa neoliberal sigue siendo >destructor de todas y cualquier cultura cuya l?gica no sea la acumulaci?n >de capital; los pol?ticos mexicanos son incultos, vanidosos y tontos, o >mesquinos, no se. No se les ocurre, por ejemplo, proponer la creaci?n de un >hotel tipo colonial en Acolman o fuera de San Juan Teotihuacan que pudiera >atraer turismo o un corredor turistico que abarcara toda la zona y cuyos >ingresos sirvieran para dar mantenimiento a las pir?mides y otras >construcciones. Es triste, muy triste, ojal? y logremos evitar esta >agresi?n a una de las muestras m?s ricas de la cultura prehisp?nica. > > > > Ma. de los ?ngeles Sanchez Noriega A. > > > > > > > > Maria wrote: > > st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } > > Amigos: > > > > Les estoy transmitiendo la carta que me enviara Alessandra Luiselli, >desde Texas. Es muy importante que nos solidaricemos por la defensa de >Teotihuacan. No puede ser que les heredemos a nuestros hijos en lugar de >una plaza se?orial. Cargada de energ?a, una plaza Walmart, con su consabida >carga globalizante de art?culos a bajo precio, productos pl?sticos, ropa de >acr?lico y nylon, infinidad de productos de consumo necesario e >innecesario. ??til? Ya lo creo que s?. Pero no sobre la cultura ancestral y >a un lado de ese portento que muchos visitamos para llenarnos de energ?a y >recoger, en pedazos, nuestra identidad pisoteada. Luchemos y, por favor, >pell?zquenme para que yo compuebe que estoy dormida. No puede ser que a >alg?n pol?tico se le haya ocurrido poner ese Walmart, justamente ah?. >?Recuerden, luchar ni cuesta ni empobrece, ni protestar envejece! M?ndenos >su aprobaci?n de inmediato, para incluir su nombre en el desplegado que >aparecer? en un diario de alta circulaci?n. Solo tienen > > que hacer reply, s?, inc?yanme en la l?nea de tema del mensaje o >dirigirse a: > > > > > > > > Alessandra Luiselli: viajeraquevas at yahoo.com.mx > > > > > > > > Los abrazo. > > > > Mar?a Dolores Bol?var > > > > > > > > > > > > En defensa del Valle de Teotihuacan > > > > > > > > Fecha: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:37:11 -0500 > > > > > > > > Comit? de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan > > > > > > > > El sitio arqueol?gico de Teotihuacan, considerado > > > > por las naciones unidas como un patrimonio de la > > > > humanidad, y uno de los tesoros espirituales y > > > > culturales de M?xico, esta siendo acosado por > > > > fuerzas globalizadoras. En forma sorpresiva, se > > > > ha iniciado la construcci?n de un centro > > > > comercial de Wal Mart en las inmediaciones de las > > > > pir?mides. > > > > > > > > Mediante una campa?a de propaganda en bardas y en > > > > desplegados en contra del Instituto Nacional de > > > > Antropolog?a e Historia, los promotores de este > > > > proyecto y sus c?mplices pol?ticos en la regi?n, > > > > lograron aparentar que la opini?n publica local > > > > esta de acuerdo con que la zona Arqueol?gica se > > > > vuelva un bot?n comercial de quien este dispuesto > > > > a pagar por medrar con el patrimonio cultural de > > > > Teotihuacan, y as? el INAH ha liberado el predio > > > > respecto a las restricciones se?aladas por la Ley > > > > Federal de Monumentos y zonas arqueol?gicas, > > > > art?sticos y culturales en vigor; las autoridades > > > > estatales por su parte, otorgaron el permiso de > > > > uso de suelo, y > > > > las municipales la licencia de construcci?n, para > > > > un establecimiento que a todas luces afecta > > > > m?ltiples aspectos de la vida de la regi?n del > > > > valle de Teotihuacan. > > > > > > > > El casco urbano de San Juan, la cabecera > > > > municipal de donde se lleva el proyecto, tiene > > > > como ?nico acceso desde la autopista M?xico- > > > > Pir?mides, la Av. Hidalgo donde actualmente el > > > > tr?fico es ya muy conflictivo, siendo la arteria > > > > principal de la poblaci?n por lo que la presencia > > > > de un centro comercial, a escasos metros de esa > > > > Av., vendr? a desquiciar la vialidad en todo el > > > > pueblo, desde los > > > > tr?boles de la autopista hasta el centro. > > > > > > > > Las obras se est?n llevando a cabo en las > > > > inmediaciones de un monumento hist?rico y > > > > art?stico, el puente del emperador, al que > > > > afectar? visualmente por estar colindante con el > > > > centro comercial en construcci?n, afectaci?n que > > > > incluye las pir?mides, localizadas a menos de > > > > medio kilometro de la pretendida bodega Aurrera. > > > > > > > > La construcci?n se esta realizando en terrenos de > > > > alta productividad agr?cola, en una regi?n donde > > > > la poblaci?n mayoritariamente se dedica a la > > > > agricultura, y en forma muy importante al > > > > comercio, por lo que se considera que la > > > > presencia de un establecimiento comercial de gran > > > > superficie como el que se pretende producir? un > > > > impacto econ?mico nefasto para la mayor?a de los > > > > comercios de la regi?n, y que implicara la > > > > deformaci?n de los usos y > > > > costumbres tradicionales de producci?n y consumo > > > > en toda el ?rea de influencia del valle de > > > > Teotihuacan, donde sus habitantes est?n ligados > > > > por lazos culturales e hist?ricos a sus > > > > monumentos prehisp?nicos. > > > > > > > > Todas las afectaciones referidas para nada a sido > > > > puesta en consideraci?n de la poblaci?n, y, en > > > > franco desaf?o al principio de municipio libre, > > > > el gobierno del Estado de M?xico, pasando por > > > > alto originalmente al ayuntamiento otorgo la > > > > licencia de uso de suelo y el ayuntamiento, - por > > > > encima de la comunidad- la licencia de > > > > construcci?n; adem?s de que las autoridades del > > > > INAH y las de transito federal y estatal no ha > > > > hecho valer las leyes de las que son custodios. > > > > > > > > La poblaci?n del valle de Teotihuacan ha decidido > > > > enfrentar este intento de globalizar este reducto > > > > de la historia de M?xico, patrimonio cultural de > > > > M?xico y de la humanidad; y apelando a las > > > > garant?as que le otorgan las Constituciones de la > > > > Rep?blica y la del > > > > Estado de M?xico y las Leyes que de ella se > > > > desprenden, har?n valer ante las autoridades de > > > > los tres niveles de gobierno, de los tres poderes > > > > de la uni?n la defensa de sus derechos, > > > > denunciando la trama de componendas e intereses > > > > que han permitido el inicio de las obras de la > > > > bodega Aurrera-WalMart en Teotihuacan. > > > > > > > > Comit? de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. > > > > Teotihuacan de Arista, 15 de agosto de 2004. > > > > Mayor informaci?n Circuito Pir?mides s/n Detr?s > > > > de la Pir?mide de la luna, con Emma Ortega Moreno > > > > > > > > tel.01(594) 95 8 23 06 > > > > > > > > > MANIFIESTO DEL VALLE DE TEOTIHUACAN > > > > > > > > Mas de 2000 a?os de tradici?n no pueden > > > > desaparecer para dar paso al proyecto de > > > > globalizaci?n en contra de un pueblo que a cada > > > > d?a ve debilitar su econom?a, mientras que los > > > > grandes capitales transnacionales amasan > > > > cuantiosas fortunas que convierten en d?lares que > > > > terminan fuera del pa?s, un pa?s que ha pesar de > > > > contar con enormes riquezas > > > > y recursos naturales esta convirti?ndose en > > > > esclavo de su propia tierra. > > > > > > > > En este momento amargo de disoluci?n del concepto > > > > de naci?n en aras de los intereses > > > > globalizadores, toca a los mexicanos de hoy > > > > defender la tierra que nos vio nacer, y a > > > > nosotros los Teotihuacanos, en particular, > > > > hacerlo con esta privilegiada porci?n de > > > > nuestro pa?s donde esta plasmado en pir?mides y > > > > monumentos del pasado de M?xico. > > > > > > > > El pasado de Teotihuacan, que llega hasta nuestro > > > > presente en forma de pir?mides, orgullo de M?xico > > > > y declarado patrimonio de la humanidad, esta > > > > amenazado ahora por proyectos de las fuerzas > > > > globalizadoras que empiezan a a?orar con la > > > > construcci?n de un centro comercial de una firma > > > > transnacional que sin duda servir? de punta de > > > > lanza para que mas adelante nuestra tierra se > > > > fraccione para la construcci?n de > > > > unidades habitacionales que har?n que se escaseen > > > > y se encarezcan nuestra agua y los servicios > > > > p?blicos de que nos hemos dotado los > > > > teotihuacanos poniendo en peligro la subsistencia > > > > de las futuras generaciones. > > > > > > > > Estamos constatando dolorosamente como las > > > > autoridades del INAH, imponen a los pobladores > > > > del valle onerosas restricci?n y ampliaci?n de > > > > sus viviendas pretextando la protecci?n del > > > > patrimonio arqueol?gico de la zona, aunque todas > > > > las restricciones no se apliquen a los grandes > > > > intereses, como en el caso de la construcci?n de > > > > la bodega Aurrera por parte de la transnacional > > > > Wal Mart en un acuerdo evidente con las > > > > autoridades del INAH, del gobierno del Estado de > > > > M?xico y del ayuntamiento, que de pronto otorga > > > > licencias y permisos para la construcci?n del > > > > centro comercial ya mencionado, hemos constatado > > > > como esos intereses transnacionales con sus > > > > pol?ticas comerciales ma?osas se infiltran en el > > > > consumidor mediante precios bajos para acabar con > > > > la competencia, para que una vez eliminada > > > > establezcan condiciones monop?licas en detrimento > > > > del poder adquisitivo de la poblaci?n. > > > > > > > > Pero si el da?o que representa la desaparici?n de > > > > muchos cientos de peque?os y medianos negocios es > > > > una amenaza para la econom?a regional, el mayor > > > > da?o es el que el dinero que los consumidores > > > > gastan en el comercio tradicional vuelve a la > > > > econom?a de la regi?n, y se recicla derramando > > > > beneficios para toda la poblaci?n mediante la > > > > creaci?n de nuevos empleos y de una mayor > > > > demanda, pero el dinero gastado en las cadenas > > > > transnacionales salen definitivamente del pa?s, > > > > dejando un precario remanente para empleados > > > > locales, pues los responsables y administradores > > > > son regularmente fuere?os. > > > > > > > > Puesto que la operaci?n de un centro comercial > > > > transnacional en Teotihuacan afecta a todos los > > > > comercios de la regi?n, que vive precisamente de > > > > la actividad comercial, consideramos > > > > indispensable defender a toda costa nuestra > > > > fuente de trabajo y las formas tradicionales de > > > > consumo de nuestras comunidades. > > > > > > > > Las disposiciones reglamentarias del uso de suelo > > > > en el valle de Teotihuacan han impedido hasta > > > > ahora el desarrollo de otras industrias que no > > > > sean la tur?stica en toda la regi?n por lo tanto > > > > no hay suficiente generaci?n de empleo que no sea > > > > en la agricultura y en el autoempleo que propicia > > > > el peque?o comercio; as? la desaparici?n de dos > > > > millares de comercios medianos y peque?os, que > > > > traer?a una tienda de autoservicio como la que > > > > pretende instalarse en Teotihuacan dejar?a a todo > > > > el valle de Teotihuacan econ?micamente inerme, y > > > > con desempleo inmanejable que sin duda generar?a > > > > desorden social y delincuencia. > > > > > > > > El temor y la apat?a que en otro tiempo cavaron > > > > la tumba de nuestros proyectos ante la coacci?n > > > > de la autoridades desp?ticas son cosas del > > > > pasado. Hoy la solidaridad en la defensa de lo > > > > que es nuestro, nos lleva a luchas hasta la > > > > victoria. No nos vamos a quedar con los brazos > > > > cruzados viendo a nuestro Teotihuacan irse de > > > > nuestras manos, llev?ndose el futuro de nuestros > > > > hijos, que tienen que migrar a tierras extra?as > > > > buscando mejores oportunidades, abandonando todo, > > > > dejando a sus familias y hasta arriesgando la > > > > vida para obtener el sustento para su > > > > familia. Esta seria la ultima opci?n para muchos > > > > teotihuacanos que la desaparecer el peque?o > > > > comercio ante el embate de las cadena comerciales > > > > se ver?an obligados a emigrar. > > > > > > > > CONSIDERANDO QUE: > > > > > > > > 1.-) el INAH, cediendo a las presiones de la > > > > empresa Wal Mart testaferro Roberto Ruiz > > > > presidente del Consejo Coordinador de > > > > Teotihuacan, permitio el inicio de las obras sin > > > > un rescate arqueol?gico apegado a las normas de > > > > ley (art. 44 del reglamento de la ley federal > > > > sobre monumentos y zonas arqueol?gicas, > > > > art?sticos e hist?ricos) en un lugar en el que se > > > > han realizado hallazgos arqueol?gicos > > > > durante las excavaciones para la cimentaci?n del > > > > centro comercial. Y a pesar de la afectaci?n que > > > > har?n los edificios en construcci?n de la > > > > perspectiva del monumento hist?rico y art?stico > > > > del siglo XIX denominado " puente del emperador". > > > > > > > > > > > > 2.-) el gobierno del estado de M?xico, por medio > > > > de la Secretaria de desarrollo urbano y obra > > > > publica ha concedido la licencia de uso de suelo, > > > > a pesar de que el plan de desarrollo municipal de > > > > Teotihuacan en vigor desde noviembre de 2003 > > > > prohibe expresamente la construcci?n de centros > > > > comerciales y tiendas departamentales en el > > > > espacio clasificado > > > > como H833A donde se ha iniciado las obras de > > > > Bodega Aurrera, terreno que estaba destinado a la > > > > producci?n agr?cola. > > > > > > > > 3.-) Las autoridades de tr?nsito estatal y > > > > federal no han tomado en cuenta el impacto vial > > > > que representa el trafico en los alrededores del > > > > centro comercial, situado a unos metros de la > > > > principal y arteria vial de San Juan Teotihuacan. > > > > > > > > > > > > 4.-) El presidente municipal de Teotihuacan, > > > > Guillermo Rodr?guez C?spedes deforma econ?mica, > > > > sin mediar petici?n escrita de Wal Mart en un > > > > cabildazo hizo aprobar la expedici?n de la > > > > licencia de construcci?n sin mediar ni una > > > > consulta a la poblaci?n, ni los estudios de > > > > impacto del proyecto comercial de esta > > > > transnacional, ni la opini?n t?cnica en materia > > > > vial, ecol?gica y sanitaria sobre la > > > > construcci?n, y operaci?n del centro comercial en > > > > cuesti?n. > > > > > > > > 5.-) Que la sociedad civil por medio de la > > > > organizaci?n de las Naciones Ind?genas Unidas > > > > A.C. ya se hab?a pronunciado por escrito ante el > > > > presidente municipal de teotihuacan, desde el mes > > > > de marzo del corriente en contra de la > > > > construcci?n de establecimientos comerciales > > > > transnacionales de Teotihuacan. > > > > > > > > MANIFESTAMOS: > > > > > > > > 1.-) QUE SON A TODAS LUCES ILEGALES LOS PERMISOS > > > > Y AUTORIZACIONES OTORGADOS POR EL INAH, EL > > > > GOBIERNO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO Y EL AYUNTAMIENTO > > > > DE TEOTIHUACAN, RESPECTO A LA CONSTRUCCI?N, > > > > OPERACI?N Y USO DE SUELO DE "BODEGA AURRERA" CON > > > > DOMICILIO EN CRUZ DE LA MISION NUMERO 8 > > > > FRACCIONAMIENTO LA PARROQUIA DE SAN JUAN > > > > TEOTIHUACAN MEXICO. > > > > > > > > 2.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL ORGANIZADA DE > > > > TEOTIHUACAN TOMA EN SUS MANOS LA DEFENSA JURIDICA > > > > DE SUS LEGITIMOS INTERESES, EN FRANCA CONTRA LA > > > > CORRUPCION DE SUS AUTORIDADES. > > > > > > > > 3.-) QUE LA CONDICION DE CENTRO ESPIRITUAL Y > > > > CULTURAL DE MEXICO QUE ATRIBUIMOS LOS MEXICANOS A > > > > TEOTIHUACAN, HACE QUE ESTE ASUNTO SEA DE INTERES > > > > PARA TODO EL PUEBLO MEXICANO. > > > > > > > > 4.-) QUE SIENDO TEOTIHUACAN PATRIMONIO CULTURAL > > > > DE LA HUMANIDAD EL TEMA EXPUESTO ES DE INTERES > > > > INTERNACIONAL. > > > > > > > > 5.-) QUE LA SOCIEDAD CIVIL TEOTIHUACANA SE > > > > RESERVA EL DERECHO DE EJERCER CUALQUIER MEDIDA > > > > PARA HACERSE ESCUCHAR Y ATENDER DENTRO DE LOS > > > > MARGENES DE LA LEGALIDAD, Y DE ACUERDO CON LAS > > > > GARANTIAS QUE LE OTORGAN LAS CONSTITUCIONES > > > > POLITICAS DE LOS ESTADOS UNIDOS MEXICANOS Y LA > > > > DEL ESTADO LIBRE Y SOBERANO DEL ESTADO DE MEXICO. > > > > > > > > > > > > 6.-) QUE AL MARGEN DE LAS RESPONSABILIDADES > > > > ADMINISTRATIVAS, CIVILES, PENALES Y/U OTRAS EN > > > > LAS QUE PUDIERAN INCURRIR LAS AUTORIDADES > > > > MUNICIPALES, ESTATALES Y FEDERALES Y QUE EN SU > > > > MOMENTO DENUNCIAREMOS POR LA VIA LEGAL, > > > > EMPLAZAMOS A LOS RESPONSABLES FRENTE AL JUICIO DE > > > > LA HISTORIA POR LAS AFECTACIONES QUE PRODUZCAN A > > > > NUSTRA FORMA DE VIDA Y TRADICIONES EXTRA?AS A > > > > NUESTRA CULTURA MEXICANA Y > > > > TEOTIHUACANA. > > > > > > > > 7.-) LA DEFENSA DE NUESTRA AGUA, NUESTRA TIERRA Y > > > > DE NUESTRO ESPACIO, ANTE LA CONSTRUCCION Y > > > > OPERACI?N PRESENTE O FUTURA DE FRACCIONAMEINTOS > > > > DE DESARROLLOS URBANOS Y COMERCIALES, SERA UNA > > > > CAUSA POPULAR, INDEPENDIENTE DE LA VOLUNTAD DE > > > > LOS GOBIERNOS QUE LOS AUTORICEN. > > > > > > > > 8.-) QUE DE NO DETENERSE LA CONSTRUCCION DEL > > > > CENTRO COMERCIAL, PROMOVEREMOS LA RENUNCIA DEL > > > > AYUNTAMIENTO MUNICIPAL DE TEOTIHUACAN. > > > > > > > > Comit? de Defensa del valle de Teotihuacan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Net: La mejor conexi?n a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por >$100 al mes. > > _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rich_photos at YAHOO.COM Wed Sep 8 21:54:42 2004 From: rich_photos at YAHOO.COM (rick dosan) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:54:42 -0700 Subject: tociahuiliz In-Reply-To: <40EA0B5B.3060703@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: Tociahuiliz is translated as "nuestra voluntad" (our will) (Rojas, Vidas y Bienes Olvidados vol.3, p.288, CIESAS, 2000). But in Simeon, under Ciauiliztli, I find the translation ""fatigue", not will. Under cializtli, however, I find "Will". In the text below, is tociahuiliz really "our fatigue", instead of "our will"? Thanks, Rich ...yhuan quimaxiltiliz yn notlatecpan ayac aquin quitlatzonhuiliz ma caxtiltecatl yn ma teopixqui yn ma altepetl ca huel tociahuiliz ca huel tonecocol yc otitoxinaxtique yn macihui quezquintin ychcame... ...que nadie la vaya a desbaratar, sea castellano, sea sacerdote o uno del pueblo, ya que es por nuestra voluntad y no es por enemistad que venimos a criar cuantas ovejas... let nobody destroy (my testament), whether they be Spaniards, or priest, or someone from the town, because it's of our will and not of enmity that we came to breed sheep... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Wed Sep 8 22:55:26 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:55:26 -0500 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <19a.2967ced6.2e6f9f3d@aol.com> Message-ID: Listeros, I had a chance to briefly peruse Herrera's work this Summer. First of all, it isn't a dictionary: it's a vocabulary list. This list makes no mention of where the material came from. Are there classical sources? Are there modern sources? If so, what are they? We have written evidence that Nahuatl as a language has been creatively adapting to change since the mid 1530s. Today words for car and bus, for example, differ from microregion to microregion. In Zacatecas, we work simultaneously with Older and Modern Nahuatl, and since our vehicle for teaching is the language itself, we are constantly struggling with ways to express new concepts. This is all good. The problem is that if you are going to publish a dictionary, you need to be methodical and explicit about how you put it together. You need to explain the decisions you had to make in order to arrive at your final system of "words", definitions, and grammatical terminology. This is not done in Herrera's work. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Sep 7, 2004, at 6:33 PM, Amapohuani at AOL.COM wrote: > Listeros: > > Once again I am impressed by the thoughtful openmindedness of many of > the people on this list. I very much look forward to reading Fran's > review (see below) but am reminded of a comment someone much wiser > than I made about language: 'the only perfect language is a dead one.' > That is, once a language is no longer actively used then there is > always someone who fixes upon some 'high culture' definition of what > constituted that now-no-longer-spoken language, makes its conventions > the standard for all other varieties, and then attempts to foist this > somewhat (not always completely) arbitrary choice on everyone else who > wants to study that language. > > I am rather focused on the 16th to 19th century varieties of Nahuatl > (as expressed in docs) but am very mindful and appreciative of what > others have been, or are, doing. For example, I think Jonathan Amith's > upcoming publication is going to be a major help for folks like me. > > The more the merrier. And my sincere thanks to all of you who help > keep Nahuatl, in all its many spoken and written forms, a living > language. Oannechmocnelilitzinoque, otlacauhqui in > amochalchiuhyollotzin. > > Ye ixquich. > Barry D. Sell > > In a message dated 9/7/04 11:16:18 AM, karttu at NANTUCKET.NET writes: > > > > I just wrote a review of it in an article evaluating a number of recent > books intended to facilitate Nahuatl studies.? The review article has > been submitted to the journal Ethnohistory. I am not sure how long it > will be before it appears in print. > > Frances Karttunen > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3828 bytes Desc: not available URL: From micc2 at COX.NET Thu Sep 9 00:21:59 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:21:59 -0700 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <2CC5F13D-01EA-11D9-89B9-003065C46A4A@mac.com> Message-ID: I was fortunate to have taken the five week summer course offered by John and the Nahuatl indigenous people he works with this past summer. I would recommend it to anyone who wants an in-depth cultural, social, linguistic, and (yes, even a) spiritual experience! They are working on a Nahuatl web portal that will offer a great many texts in both older and modern Nahuatl. This will include a Nahuatl dictionary written by and for Nahuatl native speakers! Their website is: www.idiez.org.mx mario e. aguilar chuco13 www.mexicayotl.org idiez at MAC.COM wrote: > Listeros, > I had a chance to briefly peruse Herrera's work this Summer. First of > all, it isn't a dictionary: it's a vocabulary list. This list makes no > mention of where the material came from. Are there classical sources? > Are there modern sources? If so, what are they? > We have written evidence that Nahuatl as a language has been > creatively adapting to change since the mid 1530s. Today words for car > and bus, for example, differ from microregion to microregion. In > Zacatecas, we work simultaneously with Older and Modern Nahuatl, and > since our vehicle for teaching is the language itself, we are > constantly struggling with ways to express new concepts. This is all > good. The problem is that if you are going to publish a dictionary, > you need to be methodical and explicit about how you put it together. > You need to explain the decisions you had to make in order to arrive > at your final system of "words", definitions, and grammatical > terminology. This is not done in Herrera's work. > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Hist?rico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > M?xico > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > > > > On Sep 7, 2004, at 6:33 PM, Amapohuani at AOL.COM wrote: > > Listeros: > > Once again I am impressed by the thoughtful openmindedness of many > of the people on this list. I very much look forward to reading > Fran's review (see below) but am reminded of a comment someone > much wiser than I made about language: 'the only perfect language > is a dead one.' That is, once a language is no longer actively > used then there is always someone who fixes upon some 'high > culture' definition of what constituted that now-no-longer-spoken > language, makes its conventions the standard for all other > varieties, and then attempts to foist this somewhat (not always > completely) arbitrary choice on everyone else who wants to study > that language. > > I am rather focused on the 16th to 19th century varieties of > Nahuatl (as expressed in docs) but am very mindful and > appreciative of what others have been, or are, doing. For example, > I think Jonathan Amith's upcoming publication is going to be a > major help for folks like me. > > The more the merrier. And my sincere thanks to all of you who help > keep Nahuatl, in all its many spoken and written forms, a living > language. Oannechmocnelilitzinoque, otlacauhqui in > amochalchiuhyollotzin. > > Ye ixquich. > Barry D. Sell > > In a message dated 9/7/04 11:16:18 AM, karttu at NANTUCKET.NET writes: > > > > I just wrote a review of it in an article evaluating a number of > recent > books intended to facilitate Nahuatl studies. The review article has > been submitted to the journal Ethnohistory. I am not sure how long it > will be before it appears in print. > > Frances Karttunen > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Amapohuani at AOL.COM Thu Sep 9 00:30:06 2004 From: Amapohuani at AOL.COM (Amapohuani at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 20:30:06 EDT Subject: Hippocrene dictionary Message-ID: Listeros: IMHO, John's point is very well taken. Ye ixquich. Barry D. Sell In a message dated 9/8/04 4:10:57 PM, idiez at MAC.COM writes: > Listeros, > ? ? ? ? I had a chance to briefly peruse Herrera's work this Summer. First > of > all, it isn't a dictionary: it's a vocabulary list. This list makes no > mention of where the material came from. Are there classical sources? > Are there modern sources? If so, what are they? > ? ? ? ? We have written evidence that Nahuatl as a language has been > creatively adapting to change since the mid 1530s. Today words for car > and bus, for example, differ from microregion to microregion. In > Zacatecas, we work simultaneously with Older and Modern Nahuatl, and > since our vehicle for teaching is the language itself, we are > constantly struggling with ways to express new concepts. This is all > good. The problem is that if you are going to publish a dictionary, you > need to be methodical and explicit about how you put it together. You > need to explain the decisions you had to make in order to arrive at > your final system of "words", definitions, and grammatical terminology. > This is not done in Herrera's work. > John > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Sep 9 13:45:01 2004 From: chelodona at HOTMAIL.COM (chelo dona) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:45:01 -0300 Subject: tociahuiliz Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From budelberger.richard at 9ONLINE.FR Thu Sep 9 03:55:00 2004 From: budelberger.richard at 9ONLINE.FR (Budelberger, Richard) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 05:55:00 +0200 Subject: tociahuiliz Message-ID: 22 fructidor an CCXII (le 9 septembre 2004 d. c.-d. c. g.), 05h51. ---- Message d'origine ---- De : rick dosan ? : Envoy? : mercredi 8 septembre 2004 23:54 Objet : tociahuiliz > Tociahuiliz is translated as "nuestra voluntad" (our will) > (Rojas, Vidas y Bienes Olvidados vol.3, p.288, CIESAS, > 2000). But in Simeon, under Ciauiliztli, I find the translation > ""fatigue", not will. Under cializtli, however, I find "Will". In > the text below, is tociahuiliz really "our fatigue", instead of "our will"? > Thanks, Rich > > ...yhuan quimaxiltiliz yn notlatecpan ayac aquin quitlatzonhuiliz > ma caxtiltecatl yn ma teopixqui yn ma altepetl ca huel > tociahuiliz ca huel tonecocol yc otitoxinaxtique yn macihui > quezquintin ychcame... > > ...que nadie la vaya a desbaratar, sea castellano, sea sacerdote > o uno del pueblo, ya que es por nuestra voluntad y no es por > enemistad que venimos a criar cuantas ovejas... > > let nobody destroy (my testament), whether they be Spaniards, > enemistad or priest, or someone from the town, because it's of > our will and not of enmity that we came to breed sheep... CAROCHI ! CAROCHI ! CAROCHI ! Ex-? Wimmer ?... : *?.CIYAHUIZTLI:?* ciyahuiztli: Fatigue. Esp., cansacio (M). Angl., fatigue, tiredness (K s ciahuiztli). * *? la forme poss?d?e.?* ? _?n?ntic in mociyahuiz, in notlatequipan?liz_ ?, ma fatigue et mon travail se sont r?v?l?s vains. Launey Introd 2S2 (exemple emprunt? ? Carochi). ? _in ?ciyahuiz in ?tlahpalihuiz ahtle n?nhuetziz_ ?, de ses fatigues et de ses efforts rien ne sera vain - of her fatigue and effort, nothing would be in vain. Sah4,2. ? _in ?ciyahuiz, in ?necohcol_ ?, sa fatigue et ses peines - his fatigue and pains. Sah4,128. Form. : nom d'action sur ciyahui. *?.CIYALIZTLI:?* ciyaliztli, variantes cealiztli, ceyaliztli. Volont?, d?sir, consentement. Esp., volundad o acto de querer algo. Molina II 22r. * *? la forme poss?d?e.?* ? _t?ciyaliz_ ?, volont?, d?sir de quelqu'un. *? _tociyaliz_ ?, notre (la) volont?*. ? _ciyalizcopa_ ?, b?n?volement, de bon gr?, ? _mociyalizcopa_ ?, avec mon consentement. Form : nom d'action sur ciya. Budelberger, Richard. From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Thu Sep 9 18:08:47 2004 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?ANTHONY=20APPLEYARD?=) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:08:47 +0100 Subject: tociahuiliz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- chelo dona wrote: > La palabra "Fatiga" en castellano antiguo se utiliza mucho como > sin?nimo de "trabajo", ... And in UK army language "fatigues" means manual work, and a sort of army work overall. From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Mon Sep 13 12:23:42 2004 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:23:42 -0400 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <413E2961.1070703@cox.net> Message-ID: I have only sporadic access to email right now, so I am coming kind of late to this discussion. Also, I will apologize in advance (although I am writing this after finishing what comes below) for the length of this email. I am in Southern England right now without an umbrella, and it has been raining. And to get from where I am checking my email to wherever else I can go, I would have to get wet. So, rather than do that, I figured I would subject you to some of my perhaps senseless ramblings. :-) I would just point out that the situation of the Nahuatl language makes the issues discussed in this thread very complicated. First, the expression of objects, places, concepts, etc. that did not originate in a Nahuatl context requires some kind of negotiation between Nahuatl, the object or concept, and often the language in which these objects or concepts were originally articulated. Sometimes that means using loan words; other times it may mean coming up with a Nahuatl equivalent; or sometimes a combination of the two. But these negotiations happen naturally in communicative situations between native speakers. Given the fact that there is no official national or international body that makes decisions on what is permitted and what is not for Nahuatl such as is the case for Spanish, this means that for many Nahuatl lexical and grammatical elements, there will probably never be a "standard" to which one can refer. (Of course, even in the case of Spanish and other national langauges, this "standard" is misleading). This may be frustrating for people like us who tend to think in terms of "standard" language; but it probably more accurately reflects the nature of language and language change. It may be that the Nahuatl teacher made up the word tepoztelollotl, but maybe that is the way one community of speakers refers to a train. You can have the same experience with words that are clearly Nahuatl in origin. I learned a colloquial expression from a native Nahuatl speaker; and when I reproduced it for another native speaker from another area, he had no idea what it meant or how it was used. Another thing to keep in mind is that there is a pragmatic dimension to communication that is not captured in dictionaries. Even the native speaker who translated the term literally as "metal corncob" may very well have understood the term to refer metaphorically to a train in a communicative context. Even though this was not a previously encountered metaphor, the pragmatic dimension of the communicative act might have made it clear. With regard to the more general issue of inventing Nahuatl words as opposed to just using loan words: given that Nahuatl is not the official language of a modern nation state that has an interest in standardizing the language, I don't know how you could call this elitist. Although the thing with French is a purist position, purism in Nahuatl isn't necessarily elitist. But I see the general point. For me, the problem here isn't so much that it is elitist as that it is difficult to impose that kind of standard without the institutional power that comes with national languages, formal schooling, etc. Native speakers can certainly invent Nahuatl names for objects and concepts new to the Nahuatl language. But they have to convince the community of speakers to which they belong to accept these new terms. If they do, this means that there will be a lot more variation from one community of speakers to another than in national languages. But it can be frustrating if you get misled into thinking that topoztelollotl is commonly understood as train and it turns out to be one of the pet terms invented by some guy who is trying to impose it on the rest of the Nahuatl speaking and and Nahuatl learning world when in reality most (or perhaps all?) native speakers just use the Spanish word "tren." So, ultimately, any dictionary will have to be either community specific; or if it aspires to be more comprehensive, it will have to give multi-regional listings with the source of each definition. I think this is one of the things that John was saying the dictionary does not do: it doesn't tell you where these definitions come from, if they are specific to a certain community, shared by some or most Nahuatl language communities, or invented specifically for the dictionary itself. I haven't looked at the dictionary, but from what John and some others have said, it seems to me that this is what is so problematic about it: it seems to want to act like a national language dictionary, but Nahuatl is not a national language. The point is not that they can't or shouldn't invent words like Checkoslavakia. Why not? This can be an interesting exercise. Personally, I don't think I would have much use for such a dictionary, but there are people interested in reviving Nahuatl within non-traditional communities and contexts for whom such a dictionary might be useful. But any such dicitonary should be very clear about what it is doing so that people are not misled into thinking that it is some kind of universal, definitive, Nahuatl dicitonary. Of coure in the case of Checkoslavakia, it is probably clear to most people that this word is not one that has come up much in native Nahuatl discourse. But there may be other words that are not so obviously esoteric in daily Nahua life. I guess the point would be that they should be honest about the fact that they are participating in an exercise of linguistic innovation and attempting to set some kind of standard. Then, it would be up to any given linguistic community to adopt or ignore the lexical items proposed. For scholars interested in the language as it is used, for such a dictionary to be useful and in any way authoritative, we would have to wait until these items were actually adopted by some community, or until some revivalist community is created that used them. Galen Quoting micc2 : > Tlazcamati for your words Stephanie, > > I just think that we should be careful of creating words that will > never > be used by the "common folk" It is easy to create words that will > serve no purpose > except to show how adroit a person is at manipulating a language. > > especially when beginners like me are taught these "new words" as > canonical words that imply wide usage, we might end up talking > nonsense > to native speakers who might look at us with bemusement. > > Many years ago a "nahuatl teacher" told me that to say "tren" > (train) > you said: tepuztelollotl. I said this word once to another > Nahuatl > speaker, one who did not > put himself out there as a "maestro" and she said I had just said > " > it is a metal corncob"......hmmmm...... > > > From idiez at MAC.COM Mon Sep 13 14:32:25 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:32:25 -0500 Subject: Nahua revitalization In-Reply-To: <1095078222.4145914e7e121@mail2.buffalo.edu> Message-ID: Galen y dem?s listeros, There is no official academy of the Nahuatl language, and it's doubtful there ever will be one. Isolation of towns and regions, academic and political factions, and the lack of national interest you mention, are all factors. The geographical isolation of many indigenous towns is a problem. Many times local bosses block road construction in order to perpetuate their local monopoly on everything from orange crops, to livestock, to transportation. Paradoxically, this same isolation is probably one of the important factors that has prevented Nahuatl from disappearing altogether as a Modern Language. However, progress is inevitable: paved roads, television, telephones, and internet are and will be reaching indigenous communities more and more. The problem is how to manage assimilation to modernity while promoting cultural revitalization. For this reason, projects such as ours at IDIEZ and Jonathan Amith's are very important. Jonathan may correct me here, but I think each of us work opposite sides of a fundamental coin. Jonathan concentrates on revitalization of the language within the indigenous community, at the source, so to speak. At IDIEZ, we work with indigenous students who have left their communities in order to go to college. They receive instruction in Nahuatl (both older and modern) at the university level, work as TA's in order to teach their language and culture to mestizo students, and participate in research projects. When these young people graduate and go to work, they will be professionals educated in both Hispanic and Nahua culture (most of them also study English). Hopefully, each of them will in some way contribute to expand the use of Nahuatl within Mexican society. While Jonathan works to strengthen the language and culture within the indigenous community, we work to do so in other sectors of Mexican society. I think that in order for Nahua revitalization to work, both strategies must be implemented. Futhermore, people who work in these kinds of projects need to constantly communicate with each other, in order to try and unify aspects of revitalization which seem to go in opposite directions. For example, one aspect of standardization which can and should be implemented in the future has to do with the orthographic system. At this point everyone seems to fall somewhere along a line connecting two poles: a writing system based on science vs a writing system based on tradition. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Mon Sep 13 15:45:49 2004 From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:45:49 +0200 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary Message-ID: Having an interest in dictionary making, I have been following this discussion with interest. As I understand it, the issue here is the tension between the descriptive and prescriptive functions of a dictionary. Investigators of course are usually more interested in accurate description of how language is actually used, whereas teachers are generally more interested in authoritive affirmations as to how the language should be used and written. There are surely many acceptable ways of resolving this tension in a work such as a dictionary, but Galen's point is well made: "But any such dicitonary should be very clear about what it is doing so that people are not misled". -----Original Message----- From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU [mailto:brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU] Sent: maandag 13 september 2004 14:24 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Hippocrene dictionary I have only sporadic access to email right now, so I am coming kind of late to this discussion. Also, I will apologize in advance (although I am writing this after finishing what comes below) for the length of this email. I am in Southern England right now without an umbrella, and it has been raining. And to get from where I am checking my email to wherever else I can go, I would have to get wet. So, rather than do that, I figured I would subject you to some of my perhaps senseless ramblings. :-) I would just point out that the situation of the Nahuatl language makes the issues discussed in this thread very complicated. First, the expression of objects, places, concepts, etc. that did not originate in a Nahuatl context requires some kind of negotiation between Nahuatl, the object or concept, and often the language in which these objects or concepts were originally articulated. Sometimes that means using loan words; other times it may mean coming up with a Nahuatl equivalent; or sometimes a combination of the two. But these negotiations happen naturally in communicative situations between native speakers. Given the fact that there is no official national or international body that makes decisions on what is permitted and what is not for Nahuatl such as is the case for Spanish, this means that for many Nahuatl lexical and grammatical elements, there will probably never be a "standard" to which one can refer. (Of course, even in the case of Spanish and other national langauges, this "standard" is misleading). This may be frustrating for people like us who tend to think in terms of "standard" language; but it probably more accurately reflects the nature of language and language change. It may be that the Nahuatl teacher made up the word tepoztelollotl, but maybe that is the way one community of speakers refers to a train. You can have the same experience with words that are clearly Nahuatl in origin. I learned a colloquial expression from a native Nahuatl speaker; and when I reproduced it for another native speaker from another area, he had no idea what it meant or how it was used. Another thing to keep in mind is that there is a pragmatic dimension to communication that is not captured in dictionaries. Even the native speaker who translated the term literally as "metal corncob" may very well have understood the term to refer metaphorically to a train in a communicative context. Even though this was not a previously encountered metaphor, the pragmatic dimension of the communicative act might have made it clear. With regard to the more general issue of inventing Nahuatl words as opposed to just using loan words: given that Nahuatl is not the official language of a modern nation state that has an interest in standardizing the language, I don't know how you could call this elitist. Although the thing with French is a purist position, purism in Nahuatl isn't necessarily elitist. But I see the general point. For me, the problem here isn't so much that it is elitist as that it is difficult to impose that kind of standard without the institutional power that comes with national languages, formal schooling, etc. Native speakers can certainly invent Nahuatl names for objects and concepts new to the Nahuatl language. But they have to convince the community of speakers to which they belong to accept these new terms. If they do, this means that there will be a lot more variation from one community of speakers to another than in national languages. But it can be frustrating if you get misled into thinking that topoztelollotl is commonly understood as train and it turns out to be one of the pet terms invented by some guy who is trying to impose it on the rest of the Nahuatl speaking and and Nahuatl learning world when in reality most (or perhaps all?) native speakers just use the Spanish word "tren." So, ultimately, any dictionary will have to be either community specific; or if it aspires to be more comprehensive, it will have to give multi-regional listings with the source of each definition. I think this is one of the things that John was saying the dictionary does not do: it doesn't tell you where these definitions come from, if they are specific to a certain community, shared by some or most Nahuatl language communities, or invented specifically for the dictionary itself. I haven't looked at the dictionary, but from what John and some others have said, it seems to me that this is what is so problematic about it: it seems to want to act like a national language dictionary, but Nahuatl is not a national language. The point is not that they can't or shouldn't invent words like Checkoslavakia. Why not? This can be an interesting exercise. Personally, I don't think I would have much use for such a dictionary, but there are people interested in reviving Nahuatl within non-traditional communities and contexts for whom such a dictionary might be useful. But any such dicitonary should be very clear about what it is doing so that people are not misled into thinking that it is some kind of universal, definitive, Nahuatl dicitonary. Of coure in the case of Checkoslavakia, it is probably clear to most people that this word is not one that has come up much in native Nahuatl discourse. But there may be other words that are not so obviously esoteric in daily Nahua life. I guess the point would be that they should be honest about the fact that they are participating in an exercise of linguistic innovation and attempting to set some kind of standard. Then, it would be up to any given linguistic community to adopt or ignore the lexical items proposed. For scholars interested in the language as it is used, for such a dictionary to be useful and in any way authoritative, we would have to wait until these items were actually adopted by some community, or until some revivalist community is created that used them. Galen Quoting micc2 : > Tlazcamati for your words Stephanie, > > I just think that we should be careful of creating words that will > never > be used by the "common folk" It is easy to create words that will > serve no purpose > except to show how adroit a person is at manipulating a language. > > especially when beginners like me are taught these "new words" as > canonical words that imply wide usage, we might end up talking > nonsense > to native speakers who might look at us with bemusement. > > Many years ago a "nahuatl teacher" told me that to say "tren" > (train) > you said: tepuztelollotl. I said this word once to another > Nahuatl > speaker, one who did not > put himself out there as a "maestro" and she said I had just said > " > it is a metal corncob"......hmmmm...... > > > From no_doyohn at YAHOO.COM Mon Sep 13 16:05:55 2004 From: no_doyohn at YAHOO.COM (Stef) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:05:55 -0700 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary In-Reply-To: <50EA3A4B8EE8D511AD5400508B78651501E40A73@letsxc002.let.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: Indeed Amen I say! "Swanton, M." wrote:Having an interest in dictionary making, I have been following this discussion with interest. As I understand it, the issue here is the tension between the descriptive and prescriptive functions of a dictionary. Investigators of course are usually more interested in accurate description of how language is actually used, whereas teachers are generally more interested in authoritive affirmations as to how the language should be used and written. There are surely many acceptable ways of resolving this tension in a work such as a dictionary, but Galen's point is well made: "But any such dicitonary should be very clear about what it is doing so that people are not misled". -----Original Message----- From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU [mailto:brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU] Sent: maandag 13 september 2004 14:24 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Hippocrene dictionary I have only sporadic access to email right now, so I am coming kind of late to this discussion. Also, I will apologize in advance (although I am writing this after finishing what comes below) for the length of this email. I am in Southern England right now without an umbrella, and it has been raining. And to get from where I am checking my email to wherever else I can go, I would have to get wet. So, rather than do that, I figured I would subject you to some of my perhaps senseless ramblings. :-) I would just point out that the situation of the Nahuatl language makes the issues discussed in this thread very complicated. First, the expression of objects, places, concepts, etc. that did not originate in a Nahuatl context requires some kind of negotiation between Nahuatl, the object or concept, and often the language in which these objects or concepts were originally articulated. Sometimes that means using loan words; other times it may mean coming up with a Nahuatl equivalent; or sometimes a combination of the two. But these negotiations happen naturally in communicative situations between native speakers. Given the fact that there is no official national or international body that makes decisions on what is permitted and what is not for Nahuatl such as is the case for Spanish, this means that for many Nahuatl lexical and grammatical elements, there will probably never be a "standard" to which one can refer. (Of course, even in the case of Spanish and other national langauges, this "standard" is misleading). This may be frustrating for people like us who tend to think in terms of "standard" language; but it probably more accurately reflects the nature of language and language change. It may be that the Nahuatl teacher made up the word tepoztelollotl, but maybe that is the way one community of speakers refers to a train. You can have the same experience with words that are clearly Nahuatl in origin. I learned a colloquial expression from a native Nahuatl speaker; and when I reproduced it for another native speaker from another area, he had no idea what it meant or how it was used. Another thing to keep in mind is that there is a pragmatic dimension to communication that is not captured in dictionaries. Even the native speaker who translated the term literally as "metal corncob" may very well have understood the term to refer metaphorically to a train in a communicative context. Even though this was not a previously encountered metaphor, the pragmatic dimension of the communicative act might have made it clear. With regard to the more general issue of inventing Nahuatl words as opposed to just using loan words: given that Nahuatl is not the official language of a modern nation state that has an interest in standardizing the language, I don't know how you could call this elitist. Although the thing with French is a purist position, purism in Nahuatl isn't necessarily elitist. But I see the general point. For me, the problem here isn't so much that it is elitist as that it is difficult to impose that kind of standard without the institutional power that comes with national languages, formal schooling, etc. Native speakers can certainly invent Nahuatl names for objects and concepts new to the Nahuatl language. But they have to convince the community of speakers to which they belong to accept these new terms. If they do, this means that there will be a lot more variation from one community of speakers to another than in national languages. But it can be frustrating if you get misled into thinking that topoztelollotl is commonly understood as train and it turns out to be one of the pet terms invented by some guy who is trying to impose it on the rest of the Nahuatl speaking and and Nahuatl learning world when in reality most (or perhaps all?) native speakers just use the Spanish word "tren." So, ultimately, any dictionary will have to be either community specific; or if it aspires to be more comprehensive, it will have to give multi-regional listings with the source of each definition. I think this is one of the things that John was saying the dictionary does not do: it doesn't tell you where these definitions come from, if they are specific to a certain community, shared by some or most Nahuatl language communities, or invented specifically for the dictionary itself. I haven't looked at the dictionary, but from what John and some others have said, it seems to me that this is what is so problematic about it: it seems to want to act like a national language dictionary, but Nahuatl is not a national language. The point is not that they can't or shouldn't invent words like Checkoslavakia. Why not? This can be an interesting exercise. Personally, I don't think I would have much use for such a dictionary, but there are people interested in reviving Nahuatl within non-traditional communities and contexts for whom such a dictionary might be useful. But any such dicitonary should be very clear about what it is doing so that people are not misled into thinking that it is some kind of universal, definitive, Nahuatl dicitonary. Of coure in the case of Checkoslavakia, it is probably clear to most people that this word is not one that has come up much in native Nahuatl discourse. But there may be other words that are not so obviously esoteric in daily Nahua life. I guess the point would be that they should be honest about the fact that they are participating in an exercise of linguistic innovation and attempting to set some kind of standard. Then, it would be up to any given linguistic community to adopt or ignore the lexical items proposed. For scholars interested in the language as it is used, for such a dictionary to be useful and in any way authoritative, we would have to wait until these items were actually adopted by some community, or until some revivalist community is created that used them. Galen Quoting micc2 : > Tlazcamati for your words Stephanie, > > I just think that we should be careful of creating words that will > never > be used by the "common folk" It is easy to create words that will > serve no purpose > except to show how adroit a person is at manipulating a language. > > especially when beginners like me are taught these "new words" as > canonical words that imply wide usage, we might end up talking > nonsense > to native speakers who might look at us with bemusement. > > Many years ago a "nahuatl teacher" told me that to say "tren" > (train) > you said: tepuztelollotl. I said this word once to another > Nahuatl > speaker, one who did not > put himself out there as a "maestro" and she said I had just said > " > it is a metal corncob"......hmmmm...... > > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue Sep 14 13:47:25 2004 From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 15:47:25 +0200 Subject: Nahua revitalization Message-ID: You sound unduly pessimistic. There exists an Academy of the Mixtec Language (Ve'e Tu'un Savi) which has been quite successful at organizing despiting geographical isolation. -----Original Message----- From: idiez at MAC.COM [mailto:idiez at MAC.COM] Sent: maandag 13 september 2004 16:32 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Nahua revitalization Galen y dem?s listeros, There is no official academy of the Nahuatl language, and it's doubtful there ever will be one. Isolation of towns and regions, academic and political factions, and the lack of national interest you mention, are all factors. The geographical isolation of many indigenous towns is a problem. Many times local bosses block road construction in order to perpetuate their local monopoly on everything from orange crops, to livestock, to transportation. Paradoxically, this same isolation is probably one of the important factors that has prevented Nahuatl from disappearing altogether as a Modern Language. However, progress is inevitable: paved roads, television, telephones, and internet are and will be reaching indigenous communities more and more. The problem is how to manage assimilation to modernity while promoting cultural revitalization. For this reason, projects such as ours at IDIEZ and Jonathan Amith's are very important. Jonathan may correct me here, but I think each of us work opposite sides of a fundamental coin. Jonathan concentrates on revitalization of the language within the indigenous community, at the source, so to speak. At IDIEZ, we work with indigenous students who have left their communities in order to go to college. They receive instruction in Nahuatl (both older and modern) at the university level, work as TA's in order to teach their language and culture to mestizo students, and participate in research projects. When these young people graduate and go to work, they will be professionals educated in both Hispanic and Nahua culture (most of them also study English). Hopefully, each of them will in some way contribute to expand the use of Nahuatl within Mexican society. While Jonathan works to strengthen the language and culture within the indigenous community, we work to do so in other sectors of Mexican society. I think that in order for Nahua revitalization to work, both strategies must be implemented. Futhermore, people who work in these kinds of projects need to constantly communicate with each other, in order to try and unify aspects of revitalization which seem to go in opposite directions. For example, one aspect of standardization which can and should be implemented in the future has to do with the orthographic system. At this point everyone seems to fall somewhere along a line connecting two poles: a writing system based on science vs a writing system based on tradition. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From pkurtboke at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Sep 14 23:38:17 2004 From: pkurtboke at HOTMAIL.COM (petek kurtboke) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:38:17 +0000 Subject: Hippocrene dictionary Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micc2 at COX.NET Wed Sep 15 05:13:41 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:13:41 -0700 Subject: Altar?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ceyo tlahtlanilli: In the Huasteca Nahuatlaca I heard the word "tlaixpan" used for "altar" I think this means "in front of something' based on Frances' dictionary. Can anyone please tell me what the Spanish contact era word for altar was? tlazohca:mati!!! ....or for my friends from Tepecxitla, Ver: tlazcamati! mario www.mexicayotl.org > From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Wed Sep 15 05:27:48 2004 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (r. joe campbell) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 00:27:48 -0500 Subject: Altar?? In-Reply-To: <4147CF85.9020403@cox.net> Message-ID: The Spanish borrowing was certainly used: altar It also showed up in phrases: altar iixquen frontal de altar altar iixtlapachiuhca frontal de altar Momoztli was also used (small mound, pyramid) momozco on a mound, on an altar also: tlalmomoztli (Molina comments that momoztli were placed along the roads; "altar de demonios") Saludos, Joe On Tue, 14 Sep 2004, micc2 wrote: > ceyo tlahtlanilli: > > In the Huasteca Nahuatlaca I heard the word "tlaixpan" used for > "altar" I think this means "in front of something' based on Frances' > dictionary. > Can anyone please tell me what the Spanish contact era word for altar was? > > tlazohca:mati!!! ....or for my friends from Tepecxitla, Ver: tlazcamati! > > mario > www.mexicayotl.org > > > > > > From micc2 at COX.NET Wed Sep 15 05:33:37 2004 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:33:37 -0700 Subject: Altar?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks! I found "mumuztli in Molina (si los altares de los demonios), but I could not find anything in Frances" dictionary that looked like this. I am assuming that since then long o was written many times as a "u" the word was mo:mo:ztli. thanks for the quick reply!!!! r. joe campbell wrote: > The Spanish borrowing was certainly used: altar > >It also showed up in phrases: > > altar iixquen frontal de altar > altar iixtlapachiuhca frontal de altar > >Momoztli was also used (small mound, pyramid) > momozco on a mound, on an altar > >also: tlalmomoztli > > (Molina comments that momoztli were placed along the roads; > "altar de demonios") > >Saludos, > >Joe > > >On Tue, 14 Sep 2004, micc2 wrote: > > > >> ceyo tlahtlanilli: >> >>In the Huasteca Nahuatlaca I heard the word "tlaixpan" used for >>"altar" I think this means "in front of something' based on Frances' >>dictionary. >>Can anyone please tell me what the Spanish contact era word for altar was? >> >>tlazohca:mati!!! ....or for my friends from Tepecxitla, Ver: tlazcamati! >> >>mario >>www.mexicayotl.org >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at mrs.umn.edu Wed Sep 15 13:25:48 2004 From: schwallr at mrs.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:25:48 -0500 Subject: Altar?? In-Reply-To: <4147D431.1060400@cox.net> Message-ID: At 12:33 AM 9/15/2004, you wrote: >Thanks! > >I found "mumuztli in Molina (si los altares de los demonios), but I could >not find anything in Frances" dictionary that looked like this. Guilhem Olivier in his new book _Mockeries and Metamorphoses of an Aztec God: Tezcatlipoca_ has a relatively long discussion of the "momoztli" 172 - 182, et passim. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at mrs.umn.edu From idiez at MAC.COM Wed Sep 15 14:46:35 2004 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:46:35 -0500 Subject: o/u Message-ID: Is there an explanation about when the "o" is pronounced with a "u" sound? Mario just mentioned that it is for long "o"s, but I know from experience that this is not so. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM Thu Sep 16 22:08:13 2004 From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:08:13 -0400 Subject: o/u In-Reply-To: <0AC4FAFF-0726-11D9-B0EE-003065C46A4A@mac.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:46:35 -0500, idiez at mac.com wrote: > Is there an explanation about when the "o" is pronounced with a "u" > sound? Mario just mentioned that it is for long "o"s, but I know from > experience that this is not so. I was pondering over this not more than a day before you posted the question. Two examples I can think of, right off the top of my head, are: cal-po:l(-li) => cal-pu:l(-li), and teo:(-tl) => teu:(-tl). In both of these cases the long o becomes u, although I'm not sure as to whether the length is preserved. This is, of course, not to say that long o always becomes u. I had once read that stress played some part in the change. But, since the stress differs in the two examples above and the vowel change still occurs, I'm not convinced that theory holds water. Does anyone else have any ideas? -Geoff P.S. I have read that this resulting u is a lax high or mid-high back vowel, much like the "oo" in English "book." Can anyone confirm or deny this with certainty? From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Thu Sep 16 22:18:16 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:18:16 -0500 Subject: o/u In-Reply-To: <990456820409161508104315c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I bleeve these are dialectal variants, no? On Thu, 16 Sep 2004, Geoff Davis wrote: > On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:46:35 -0500, idiez at mac.com wrote: > > Is there an explanation about when the "o" is pronounced with a "u" > > sound? Mario just mentioned that it is for long "o"s, but I know from > > experience that this is not so. > > I was pondering over this not more than a day before you posted the > question. > > Two examples I can think of, right off the top of my head, are: > cal-po:l(-li) => cal-pu:l(-li), and > teo:(-tl) => teu:(-tl). > > In both of these cases the long o becomes u, although I'm not > sure as to whether the length is preserved. > > This is, of course, not to say that long o always becomes u. I had > once read that stress played some part in the change. But, since > the stress differs in the two examples above and the vowel change > still occurs, I'm not convinced that theory holds water. > > Does anyone else have any ideas? > > -Geoff > > P.S. I have read that this resulting u is a lax high or mid-high back > vowel, much like the "oo" in English "book." Can anyone confirm or > deny this with certainty? > > > From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Fri Sep 17 01:41:24 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:41:24 -0400 Subject: o/u In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't think they are dialectal differences. Nor do I think the orthographic variation reflects pronunciation or phonological "change." The correspondence of long /o:/ to orthographic u doesn't hold up. A number of people have compiled extensive lists of attested u for /o:, o/ and found no predictable pattern. It doesn't correlate with length or with stress. So far as I can tell, the situation is simply that Spanish has two rounded back vowels, /o/ and /u/, that contrast in point of articulation, whereas Nahuatl has two rounded back vowels that contrast in length. For Nahuatl, point of articulation for a back rounded vowel isn't salient, so it can be all over the map, so to speak. Ears attuned to Spanish sometimes hear u and other times o, but it's all the same to native speakers of Nahuatl. Hence the randomness of the orthography. We need to beware of identifying a language point-by-point with the symbols used for representing it. A grad student from Finland once told me that after just a semester in Bloomington, Indiana, he had made such progress with English that he could not only hear but also produce the distinction between "right" and "write"!!!! On Sep 16, 2004, at 6:18 PM, Michael Mccafferty wrote: > I bleeve these are dialectal variants, no? > > > > On Thu, 16 Sep 2004, Geoff Davis wrote: > >> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:46:35 -0500, idiez at mac.com >> wrote: >>> Is there an explanation about when the "o" is pronounced with a "u" >>> sound? Mario just mentioned that it is for long "o"s, but I know from >>> experience that this is not so. >> >> I was pondering over this not more than a day before you posted the >> question. >> >> Two examples I can think of, right off the top of my head, are: >> cal-po:l(-li) => cal-pu:l(-li), and >> teo:(-tl) => teu:(-tl). >> >> In both of these cases the long o becomes u, although I'm not >> sure as to whether the length is preserved. >> >> This is, of course, not to say that long o always becomes u. I had >> once read that stress played some part in the change. But, since >> the stress differs in the two examples above and the vowel change >> still occurs, I'm not convinced that theory holds water. >> >> Does anyone else have any ideas? >> >> -Geoff >> >> P.S. I have read that this resulting u is a lax high or mid-high back >> vowel, much like the "oo" in English "book." Can anyone confirm or >> deny this with certainty? >> >> >> > From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Sep 17 03:07:14 2004 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:07:14 -0400 Subject: metal corncob Message-ID: Is tren Spanglish for a train or the other way around? I?m attaching what appears to be an example of a Spanglish picture writing neologism. It?s apparently since 1940 and in English language contexts that an airplane can stand for Geronimo, but on the other hand the presence of the bear suggests a trip to Madrid, with el oso y el madro?o and Geronimo Bosco pictures with strawberries, since there?s also strawberry flavored Bosco, plus a mysterious ?blue berry? flavor. Another source might be Sue Bee (honey). In case the picture doesn?t work on all computers, it?s a picture of a bottle of Bosco chocolate syrup, also visible at www.boscoworld.com. Susan Gilchrist -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: bosco.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11024 bytes Desc: bosco.jpg URL: From susana at DRAGOTTO.COM Fri Sep 17 09:40:46 2004 From: susana at DRAGOTTO.COM (Susana Moraleda-Dragotto) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:40:46 +0200 Subject: Wolf's dictionary Message-ID: Y a proposito de diccionarios. Acabo de estar en Mexico, en el Instituto de Investigaciones Historicas de la UNAM (fui a comprar el libro de gramatica Nahuatl de Thelma Sullivan y el maravilloso libro de De Olmos) y vi en la vitrina un diccionario espanol-nahuatl escrito por un tal "Wolf". Ser? que soy ignorante, pero nunca habia oido hablar de este senor. Alguien podria esclarecerme quien es y que opinan de su obra??? Gracias, Susana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davius_sanctex at TERRA.ES Fri Sep 17 11:07:48 2004 From: davius_sanctex at TERRA.ES (Davius Sanctex) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:07:48 +0200 Subject: o/u Message-ID: [Frances] A number of people have compiled extensive lists of attested u for /o:, o/ and found no predictable pattern. It doesn't correlate with length or with stress. ------ [Davius] What about a statistical pattern, it seems that spelling < u > is more frequent following labial or labio-velar consonants /p, kW/. Another question, what about the alternances /i, e/ in Nahuatl loanwords to Spanish? Is this a problem of the same type? From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri Sep 17 11:17:41 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:17:41 -0500 Subject: o/u In-Reply-To: <001901c49ca6$914292e0$c2aa5393@upcxxi.upc.es> Message-ID: I think you're on to something. Joe Campbell and I were discussing this problem last night and phonetic environment did come up. Michael On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, Davius Sanctex wrote: > [Frances] A number of people have compiled extensive lists of attested u for > /o:, o/ and found no predictable pattern. It doesn't correlate with length > or with stress. > ------ > [Davius] What about a statistical pattern, it seems that spelling < u > is > more frequent following labial or labio-velar consonants /p, kW/. Another > question, what about the alternances /i, e/ in Nahuatl loanwords to Spanish? > Is this a problem of the same type? > > > From dfrye at UMICH.EDU Fri Sep 17 12:37:44 2004 From: dfrye at UMICH.EDU (Frye, David L) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:37:44 -0400 Subject: o/u Message-ID: Well over 100 years ago Franz Boaz wrote an article, "On Alternating Sounds," that dealt with this issue (the language he dealt with was Inuit, I think, but the principle is the same). Ears that are trained to hear the distinction between Spanish o and u, but not trained to pick out the Nahuatl o and o: sounds, will sometimes hear the Nahuatl vowel as Spanish o and sometimes as Spanish u. The distinction between the two tells us something about the listener, but not about Nahuatl. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Fri Sep 17 13:13:46 2004 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:13:46 -0400 Subject: o/u In-Reply-To: <001901c49ca6$914292e0$c2aa5393@upcxxi.upc.es> Message-ID: On Sep 17, 2004, at 7:07 AM, Davius Sanctex wrote: > [Frances] A number of people have compiled extensive lists of attested > u for > /o:, o/ and found no predictable pattern. It doesn't correlate with > length > or with stress. > ------ > [Davius] What about a statistical pattern, it seems that spelling < u > > is > more frequent following labial or labio-velar consonants /p, kW/. > Another > question, what about the alternances /i, e/ in Nahuatl loanwords to > Spanish? > Is this a problem of the same type? > The alternation of i/e is a different phenomenon. For one thing, within Nahuatl itself this process is definitely phonological, not orthographic. Nahuatl has distinct front unrounded vowels /i/ and /e/ (both long and short). All short front vowels (including /a/), however, have a tendency to drift upwards toward /i/ and thence to nothing at all. Lockhart discusses this at some length under the rubric of "weakening." Nahuatl's characteristic /tl/ (a unitary consonant, not a consonant cluster) derives historically from *t before the vowel *a. That's why tle- 'fire,' tloh- 'hawk,' tli:l- '(black) ink, soot,' and -tloc 'close to' are exceptional and rather problematic for reconstruction. Otherwise, you will notice that syllable-initial tl precedes a, except in the absolutive suffix -tli/-tl. In the case of the suffix, the historical *a has drifted all the way to /i/ and thence has disappeared entirely providing that there is a stem vowel to the left of the tl. Stem-internally there's plenty of drift of e > i, providing variants such as tletl/tlitl 'fire,' etc. This drift is more pronounced in some geographical dialects than in others. Frances From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri Sep 17 17:24:15 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:24:15 -0500 Subject: o/u In-Reply-To: <71F249219F2E3845B88BE93BEC6DA4FB028B69CA@lsa-m2.lsa.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: Yes, this also occurs in Algonquian, where, for example, in Miami-Illinois [o] and [u] are the same phoneme and [o:] and [u:] are the same phoneme. Michael On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, Frye, David L wrote: > Well over 100 years ago Franz Boaz wrote an article, "On Alternating Sounds," that dealt with this issue (the language he dealt with was Inuit, I think, but the principle is the same). Ears that are trained to hear the distinction between Spanish o and u, but not trained to pick out the Nahuatl o and o: sounds, will sometimes hear the Nahuatl vowel as Spanish o and sometimes as Spanish u. The distinction between the two tells us something about the listener, but not about Nahuatl. > > > > > > From mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM Fri Sep 17 19:04:19 2004 From: mixcoatl at GMAIL.COM (Geoff Davis) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:04:19 -0400 Subject: o/u In-Reply-To: <684E58E2-08AB-11D9-97D6-000D93B10E22@nantucket.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:13:46 -0400, Frances Karttunen wrote: > Nahuatl has distinct front unrounded vowels /i/ and /e/ (both long and > short). All short front vowels (including /a/), however, have a > tendency to drift upwards toward /i/ and thence to nothing at all. > Lockhart discusses this at some length under the rubric of "weakening." Perhaps yourself or someone else on the list could clarify this piece for me. First allow me to post a link: http://www.sil.org/americas/mexico/nahuatl/21i-VowelsNah.htm This page states (and illustrates using pictures) that /i/ and /e/ are front vowels and /a/ and /o/ are back vowels in classical Nahuatl, and shows that height is a distinguishing feature. This hadn't raised a red flag for me, until now, since I've read this in other sources as well. I've known that Spanish vowels are not correct, but I had thought this system, illustrated at the above web URL, was essentially correct. So, for me, it comes down to this: What are the "official" phonological descriptions of /a/, /e/, /i/, and /o/ for classical Nahuatl? -Geoff From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue Sep 21 16:29:15 2004 From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:29:15 +0200 Subject: o/u Message-ID: Back in 1962 Gunter Zimmermann and Hansjakob Seiler wrote an article in the IJAL on "orthographic variation o/u" using Molina and Gaona as a corpus. Apparently Zimmermann worked through all of these two works and examined where and appeared. In some environments there was never any variation and only appeared (such as at the end of words or before a ), in others there could be alternation between and . If I understand them correctly, they found that often appears before a continuant (for example before , vexutl; amuxtli; muchihua...). There also seems to be some conditioning by labials. It too bad that they didn't take vowel length or accent into account in their analysis. I do find the Germans' data suggestive that the orthographic in Classical Nahuatl might be representing allophonic variations of /o/ and /o:/. How does this resonate with modern forms of Nahuatl? -----Original Message----- From: idiez at MAC.COM [mailto:idiez at MAC.COM] Sent: woensdag 15 september 2004 16:47 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: o/u Is there an explanation about when the "o" is pronounced with a "u" sound? Mario just mentioned that it is for long "o"s, but I know from experience that this is not so. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From HJVsqzIMIS at AOL.COM Thu Sep 23 18:02:30 2004 From: HJVsqzIMIS at AOL.COM (HJVsqzIMIS at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:02:30 EDT Subject: Registration Cal Indian Conf. 2004 Message-ID: Greetings, In case any of you had wanted to attend, but were not able to register for the California Indian Conference to be held in Hesperia Oct. 1-3, 2004. Here is a registration form taken from Dr. LaMay's website. (drlamay.com). I suspect maybe cultural events will take place on Friday. I haven't read all of the information on the website yet. Many blessings, Henry Vasquez ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------ Registration (Please print this form and mail to address below)??? California Indian Conference 2004 Four Directions Institute Pre-registration Form Name as you wish it to appear on your name tag: ? _________________________________ Address: _____________________________City_______________State____ZIP________ Telephone (h) _________________(o)__________________e-mail ____________________ Fax _____________ Institution? _____________________ Tribal Affiliation ____________ Please help us plan the conference.? I will require :? Hotel ___? Airline ___? Rental Car __ The registration fee covers both Saturday, October 2 and Sunday, October 3.??? All registration is $30.00 per person for one day or two. Booth space is $40.00, which includes both Saturday and Sunday. ?Please fill out a separate pre-registration form for each person attending. Make checks payable to: California Indian Conference ? ? Mail to: ? ? Registration ? Dr. LaMay ?? ? P.O. Box 400385 ? Hesperia CA 92340 http://drlamay.com/California%20Indian%20Conference.htm From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Fri Sep 24 20:03:38 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:03:38 -0600 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: IIRC, there was a major article on Uto-Aztecan historical linguistics that was published within the last 2 years (perhaps by one of our own here) that argued for a more southern location of the U-A homeland. Does this ring a bell with anyone who knows the name of the article or in which journal it was published. Richley From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Fri Sep 24 20:37:02 2004 From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 22:37:02 +0200 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: I believe you are referring to Jane Hill's hypothesis. One version of it was published in the 2001 American Anthropologist (vol. 103: 913-34). This was discussed more recently in a volume edited by Peter Bellwood and Colin Renfrew "Examining the farming/language dispersal hypothesis" published by the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research. -----Original Message----- From: Richley Crapo [mailto:RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU] Sent: vrijdag 24 september 2004 22:04 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland IIRC, there was a major article on Uto-Aztecan historical linguistics that was published within the last 2 years (perhaps by one of our own here) that argued for a more southern location of the U-A homeland. Does this ring a bell with anyone who knows the name of the article or in which journal it was published. Richley From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Fri Sep 24 20:54:53 2004 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:54:53 -0600 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: That's it! Thanks. Richley >>> M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL 09/24/04 02:37PM >>> I believe you are referring to Jane Hill's hypothesis. One version of it was published in the 2001 American Anthropologist (vol. 103: 913-34). This was discussed more recently in a volume edited by Peter Bellwood and Colin Renfrew "Examining the farming/language dispersal hypothesis" published by the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research. -----Original Message----- From: Richley Crapo [mailto:RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU] Sent: vrijdag 24 september 2004 22:04 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland IIRC, there was a major article on Uto-Aztecan historical linguistics that was published within the last 2 years (perhaps by one of our own here) that argued for a more southern location of the U-A homeland. Does this ring a bell with anyone who knows the name of the article or in which journal it was published. Richley From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Sat Sep 25 21:46:25 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:46:25 -0500 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland In-Reply-To: <50EA3A4B8EE8D511AD5400508B78651501E40AA6@letsxc002.let.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: What is the gist of her hypothesis? Or can it be succintly gisted? Michael On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Swanton, M. wrote: > I believe you are referring to Jane Hill's hypothesis. One version of it > was published in the 2001 American Anthropologist (vol. 103: 913-34). This > was discussed more recently in a volume edited by Peter Bellwood and Colin > Renfrew "Examining the farming/language dispersal hypothesis" published by > the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richley Crapo [mailto:RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU] > Sent: vrijdag 24 september 2004 22:04 > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland > > > IIRC, there was a major article on Uto-Aztecan historical linguistics that > was published within the last 2 years (perhaps by one of our own here) that > argued for a more southern location of the U-A homeland. Does this ring a > bell with anyone who knows the name of the article or in which journal it > was published. > Richley > > > From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU Sat Sep 25 22:20:47 2004 From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:20:47 -0600 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: >>> mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU 09/25/04 15:47 PM >>> What is the gist of her hypothesis? Or can it be succintly gisted? Michael ------ [Richley] And how was her position received by others in the Bellwood and Renfrew work? (I know she was generally supporting Bellwood, so was this just a volume of like-minded authors or did it include other perspectives that might not have accepted Hill's proposal?) Is it your sense that her's will become the dominant viewpoint and replace the Northern origin perspective? On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Swanton, M. wrote: > I believe you are referring to Jane Hill's hypothesis. One version of it > was published in the 2001 American Anthropologist (vol. 103: 913-34). This > was discussed more recently in a volume edited by Peter Bellwood and Colin > Renfrew "Examining the farming/language dispersal hypothesis" published by > the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richley Crapo [mailto:RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU] > Sent: vrijdag 24 september 2004 22:04 > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland > > > IIRC, there was a major article on Uto-Aztecan historical linguistics that > was published within the last 2 years (perhaps by one of our own here) that > argued for a more southern location of the U-A homeland. Does this ring a > bell with anyone who knows the name of the article or in which journal it > was published. > Richley > > > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Sun Sep 26 12:18:38 2004 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael Mccafferty) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 07:18:38 -0500 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was just asking. I don't know anything about it. :-) On Sat, 25 Sep 2004, Richley Crapo wrote: > >>> mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU 09/25/04 15:47 PM >>> > What is the gist of her hypothesis? Or can it be succintly gisted? > Michael > ------ > [Richley] > And how was her position received by others in the Bellwood and Renfrew work? (I know she was generally supporting Bellwood, so was this just a volume of like-minded authors or did it include other perspectives that might not have accepted Hill's proposal?) Is it your sense that her's will become the dominant viewpoint and replace the Northern origin perspective? > > > On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Swanton, M. wrote: > > > I believe you are referring to Jane Hill's hypothesis. One version of it > > was published in the 2001 American Anthropologist (vol. 103: 913-34). This > > was discussed more recently in a volume edited by Peter Bellwood and Colin > > Renfrew "Examining the farming/language dispersal hypothesis" published by > > the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richley Crapo [mailto:RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU] > > Sent: vrijdag 24 september 2004 22:04 > > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > > Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland > > > > > > IIRC, there was a major article on Uto-Aztecan historical linguistics that > > was published within the last 2 years (perhaps by one of our own here) that > > argued for a more southern location of the U-A homeland. Does this ring a > > bell with anyone who knows the name of the article or in which journal it > > was published. > > Richley > > > > > > > > > From cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Sep 26 17:57:29 2004 From: cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET (Joanna M. Sanchez) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 13:57:29 -0400 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: Hill's hypothesis is based on reconsideration of models for language spread, taking into consideration several factors likely to have prevailed for community of early maize cultivators. She has reconstructed a maize complex vocabulary for proto UA (Hopi vocabulary items, including terms for water management technologies), especially northern PUA (PNUA), to assert northward movement of early cultivators from Western Mesoamerica: "If NUA is a valid genetic unit... then the identification of cultivation vocabulary cognate to that in the southern languages in any NUA langauge attests to the presence of cultivation in PNUA and hence in PUA itself." Her analysis and supports Bellwood's argument for southern UA origins; Hill argues that ProtoUA formed between 5600BP (maize domestication) and 4500BP (village settlement), expanded by rapid migration of primary cultivators due to demic pressures by 'leapfrogging' to suitable cultuvation environments, which resulted in rake-like genetic structure of UA. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mccafferty" To: Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Uto-Aztecan Homeland > What is the gist of her hypothesis? Or can it be succintly gisted? > > Michael > > > > On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Swanton, M. wrote: > > > I believe you are referring to Jane Hill's hypothesis. One version of it > > was published in the 2001 American Anthropologist (vol. 103: 913-34). This > > was discussed more recently in a volume edited by Peter Bellwood and Colin > > Renfrew "Examining the farming/language dispersal hypothesis" published by > > the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richley Crapo [mailto:RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU] > > Sent: vrijdag 24 september 2004 22:04 > > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > > Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland > > > > > > IIRC, there was a major article on Uto-Aztecan historical linguistics that > > was published within the last 2 years (perhaps by one of our own here) that > > argued for a more southern location of the U-A homeland. Does this ring a > > bell with anyone who knows the name of the article or in which journal it > > was published. > > Richley > > > > > > > From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU Sun Sep 26 18:48:28 2004 From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 12:48:28 -0600 Subject: Uto-Aztecan Homeland Message-ID: What's your assessment of how widely she's been accepted? Richley >>> cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET 09/26/04 11:46 AM >>> Hill's hypothesis is based on reconsideration of models for language spread, taking into consideration several factors likely to have prevailed for community of early maize cultivators. From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Sep 29 10:38:00 2004 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:38:00 -0400 Subject: cuauh=bosque? Message-ID: Still trying to untangle how the name Hieronymus Bosch turned into Geronimo Bosco and El Bosco in Spain. According to my interpretation of El Jard?n de las Delicias (which I'm calling La Bariedad del Mundo following an old inventory), a person in the center is Cuauht?moc, since the mini-scene represents the year 7-Calli (ld 7-house.jpg). The 7 is shown by someone (I suppose Cortes) poking 7 fingers at him, and the jar is a house by analogy to pictures of Diogenes who lived in a barrel. The bird with human feet underneath is an eccentric version of the name glyph (cuauhtemoc.jpg). But there seem to be all kinds of contexts where cuauh has something to do with trees or wood or a forest. Is there any connection to the name Cuauht?moc? Is there another glyph besides the eagle that could represent cuauh in the sense of wood or trees? In other words I wonder if there's any sign in the detail from the painting (ld 7-house.jpg) that the artist knew that cuauh could also mean wood or trees. It would imply that someone was explaining more than just glyphs for 1-acatl to 10-tecpatl, a personal name, and a couple of place names, maybe showing how picture writing can distinguish between words that sound the same? Susan Gilchrist -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ld 7-house.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 119477 bytes Desc: ld 7-house.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cuauhtemoc.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 41477 bytes Desc: cuauhtemoc.jpg URL: From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Sep 29 11:04:27 2004 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:04:27 -0400 Subject: cuauh=bosque? (fixed attachment that wouldn't open) Message-ID: I'm sorry, one of the attachments on the previous e-mail was saved incorrectly. (It was a psd with a jpeg suffix.) Sending a re-saved version titled cuauhtemoc glyph.jpg so they don't get mixed up. Susan Gilchrist -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cuauhtemoc glyph.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24592 bytes Desc: cuauhtemoc glyph.jpg URL: From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Wed Sep 29 13:25:48 2004 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:25:48 -0400 Subject: cuauh=bosque? Message-ID: Susan, I'm not sure I understand your question, and I have no idea how that image of the painting relates to what you are talking about. But as you probably know the word for eagle is cua:uhtli and the word for wood or tree is cuahuitl. So "cuauh" can mean "bosque." When you use the roots of these words in combination with something else they become "cua:uh" and "cuauh". So if you don't distinguish orthographically between vowel length, there is no difference between the two. There is a glyph used to represent "tree" or "forest," which consists of a tree. The very well known place glpyh for Cuauhnahuac ("place near trees or forest"), for example, is a tree with a mouth out of which issues a speech volute. The "cuauh" of course is for cuahuitl and the mouth and speech volute is a rebus element that puns on the relationship between "nahuac" which means "near" and "nahuatl" meaning "clear speech." And the name glyph of the eagle facing down refers to the meaning of Cuauhtemoc as "descending eagle" from the combination of "cua:uhtli" and the verb "temo" which means to descend. So, anyway, the wood glyph would theoretically be available as a rebus pun on "cua:uhtli", but there wouldn't really seem to be a need to use it that way, because it would be just as easy to draw an eagle. I'm not aware of any glyphs that use the wood glyph in this way, and I wouldn't expect to find any. But I haven't studied such glyphs in any kind of extensively systematic way, so I can't say for sure. Hope this helps. Galen sfargo at earthlink.net wrote: > Still trying to untangle how the name Hieronymus Bosch turned > into Geronimo Bosco and El Bosco in Spain. > > According to my interpretation of El Jard?n de las Delicias (which > I'm calling La Bariedad del Mundo following an old inventory), a > person in the center is Cuauht?moc, since the mini-scene > represents the year 7-Calli (ld 7-house.jpg). The 7 is shown by > someone (I suppose Cortes) poking 7 fingers at him, and the > jar is a house by analogy to pictures of Diogenes who lived in > a barrel. The bird with human feet underneath is an eccentric > version of the name glyph (cuauhtemoc.jpg). > > But there seem to be all kinds of contexts where cuauh has > something to do with trees or wood or a forest. Is there any > connection to the name Cuauht?moc? Is there another glyph > besides the eagle that could represent cuauh in the sense of > wood or trees? > > In other words I wonder if there's any sign in the detail from the > painting (ld 7-house.jpg) that the artist knew that cuauh could > also mean wood or trees. It would imply that someone was > explaining more than just glyphs for 1-acatl to 10-tecpatl, a > personal name, and a couple of place names, maybe showing > how picture writing can distinguish between words that sound > the same? > Susan Gilchrist > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 30 01:21:17 2004 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:21:17 -0400 Subject: cuauh=bosque? - Cuauhnahuac Message-ID: Thank you. I need to spend more time looking at place name glyphs. Looking again at the detail in the painting that seems to be an imitation of one in the Vienna Codex, it looks as though when I cut off the tree to make a detail photo I may have been cutting off part of the glyph. There's actually a logical reason not to draw an eagle, which is that European artists often didn't distinguish eagles from pelicans, at least in emblems and emblem- like paintings. There's an example of a pelican that looks like an eagle in a mural at Malinalco, copied from some European prototype. There's another detail in the painting that I've just noticed might relate to "falling wood." The drawings by Cristophe Weiditz of Indians in Spain include three of a person juggling a wood block with his feet. (The caption specifies that it's a wood block.) He's throwing it up in the air and catching it, and if he didn't catch it he would be hit by the falling wood. In the painted triptych, there's a person holding up a bird or with a bird that just landed on his foot, in what looks like a less hazardous version of the same game. So it looks as though there's a pun in there somewhere, maybe instigated by a Nahuatl speaker? (cuauh temoc jugglers.jpg) Substituting a bird for the wood might have been an embellishment by the European artist, who tended to overdo things and make everything complicated, but I wonder if there was a Nahuatl pun to start with. In other words if someone asked the person juggling the wood block what the game was about, he might have said "cuauh temoc." If the pronunciation isn't so different that it would cross the line separating a bad pun from an unintelligible pun, it might verify that the person in the famous drawing was a Nahuatl speaker. Also now that I look for it there's a lot of falling wood in the triptych, for instance a table that was knocked over. Susan Gilchrist Original Message: ----------------- From: Galen Brokaw brokaw at buffalo.edu Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:25:48 -0400 To: sfargo at earthlink.net, NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: cuauh=bosque? Susan, I'm not sure I understand your question, and I have no idea how that image of the painting relates to what you are talking about. But as you probably know the word for eagle is cua:uhtli and the word for wood or tree is cuahuitl. So "cuauh" can mean "bosque." When you use the roots of these words in combination with something else they become "cua:uh" and "cuauh". So if you don't distinguish orthographically between vowel length, there is no difference between the two. There is a glyph used to represent "tree" or "forest," which consists of a tree. The very well known place glpyh for Cuauhnahuac ("place near trees or forest"), for example, is a tree with a mouth out of which issues a speech volute. The "cuauh" of course is for cuahuitl and the mouth and speech volute is a rebus element that puns on the relationship between "nahuac" which means "near" and "nahuatl" meaning "clear speech." And the name glyph of the eagle facing down refers to the meaning of Cuauhtemoc as "descending eagle" from the combination of "cua:uhtli" and the verb "temo" which means to descend. So, anyway, the wood glyph would theoretically be available as a rebus pun on "cua:uhtli", but there wouldn't really seem to be a need to use it that way, because it would be just as easy to draw an eagle. I'm not aware of any glyphs that use the wood glyph in this way, and I wouldn't expect to find any. But I haven't studied such glyphs in any kind of extensively systematic way, so I can't say for sure. Hope this helps. Galen sfargo at earthlink.net wrote: > Still trying to untangle how the name Hieronymus Bosch turned > into Geronimo Bosco and El Bosco in Spain. > > According to my interpretation of El Jard?n de las Delicias (which > I'm calling La Bariedad del Mundo following an old inventory), a > person in the center is Cuauht?moc, since the mini-scene > represents the year 7-Calli (ld 7-house.jpg). The 7 is shown by > someone (I suppose Cortes) poking 7 fingers at him, and the > jar is a house by analogy to pictures of Diogenes who lived in > a barrel. The bird with human feet underneath is an eccentric > version of the name glyph (cuauhtemoc.jpg). > > But there seem to be all kinds of contexts where cuauh has > something to do with trees or wood or a forest. Is there any > connection to the name Cuauht?moc? Is there another glyph > besides the eagle that could represent cuauh in the sense of > wood or trees? > > In other words I wonder if there's any sign in the detail from the > painting (ld 7-house.jpg) that the artist knew that cuauh could > also mean wood or trees. It would imply that someone was > explaining more than just glyphs for 1-acatl to 10-tecpatl, a > personal name, and a couple of place names, maybe showing > how picture writing can distinguish between words that sound > the same? > Susan Gilchrist > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cuauh temoc jugglers.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 48807 bytes Desc: cuauh temoc jugglers.jpg URL: From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 30 02:54:51 2004 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:54:51 -0400 Subject: cuauh=bosque? - Latinizing names Message-ID: What's interesting here is that Jos? de Sig?enza distinguished between "los disparates de Geronimo Bosque" and the paintings by Geronimo Bosco. Then Covarrubias, especially in his Supplement, considers some alternative etymologies for words with "bos" in them, and whether they have to do with a forest, an ox, or eating. This is in the seventeenth century, but at the time the triptych was painted Baldassare de Castiglione was in Spain, and Il Libro del Cortegiano includes some nonsense etymologies of people's names. I don't know if anyone has considered this one: "Another man, also at Padua, said that Calfurnio was so named because he used to stoke (scaldare) ovens (forni). --Singleton translation, p. 161 So the rule could be se non ? vero, ? ben trovato. The main question is whether El Bosco and Hieronymus Bosch were known to be different people. Sig?enza might have stuck with Geronimo since he was writing the Historia de la Orden de San Geronimo, but would have known Bosco wasn't Latin or Greek for Bosch. It might have been re- vulgarized to Bosque and then jumped to El Bosco to match El Greco. Also, in this case Hieronymus Bosch was already a pseudonym. Looking for something else on the internet, I ran into a long explanation from Jos Koldeweij's recent book at http://print.google.com/print/doc?isbn=0810967359 The excerpt on the web is missing its illustrations. Koldeweij has published various versions of the Dutch emblems for the city of 's-Hertogenbosch, with and without trees. To make things more complicated, Bosch and Bruegel can both be translated more or less as "shrub," so I keep running into the etymology of shrubbery. Susan Gilchrist Original Message: ----------------- From: Frye, David L dfrye at umich.edu Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:07:16 -0400 To: sfargo at earthlink.net Subject: RE: cuauh=bosque? Same way Cristoforo Colomb and Fernao Magalhaes became Cristobal Colon and Fernando Magallanes in Spain, and Christopher Columbus and Ferdinand Magellan in England. Names were considered translatable in those days -- especially the first name (just look up the saint and translate), but last names were also Latinized and then re-vulgarized into different languages. Hieronymus = Geronimo = Jerome, etc. -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of sfargo at earthlink.net Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 6:38 AM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: cuauh=bosque? Still trying to untangle how the name Hieronymus Bosch turned into Geronimo Bosco and El Bosco in Spain. -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Sep 30 05:48:03 2004 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 01:48:03 -0400 Subject: cuauh=bosque? Message-ID: Are they too far apart to be combined in a joke? Susan Gilchrist Original Message: ----------------- From: Frances Karttunen karttu at nantucket.net Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:21:39 -0400 To: sfargo at earthlink.net Subject: Re: cuauh=bosque? There are two different stems: cuauh- with a short vowel 'tree, wood' cuauhtlah 'place of many trees, woods' cua:uh- with a long vowel 'eagle' Cua:uhtemo:c 'He has descended in the manner of an eagle' -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .