From institute at CSUMB.EDU Wed Jan 5 15:47:44 2005 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 07:47:44 -0800 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I've just completed an initial draft of a manuscript on the subject of the Mesoamerican tzompantli. During the course of my research I found diverse translations and interpretations of the term "tzompantli." For one, the term tends to be interpreted as "skull rack" in the most generic sense, whereas those who have had occasion to translate the term more literally identify its meaning with the translation of "skull banner" -- which appears to constitute a gloss of tzontecomatl (skull or gourd?) and pantli (banner). Any assistance from the nahua language experts out there would be most appreciated, and acknowledged in print. PS: By the way, the manuscript in question is titled "The Divine Gourd Tree: Tzompantli Skull Racks, Decapitation Rituals, and Human Trophies in Ancient Mesoamerica." Best Regards, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. -- This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus protection at CSUMB, visit: http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Wed Jan 5 16:25:50 2005 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:25:50 -0500 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2005, at 10:47 AM, Archaeology Institute wrote: > During the course of my research I found diverse translations and > interpretations of the term "tzompantli." For one, the term tends to > be > interpreted as "skull rack" in the most generic sense, whereas those > who have had occasion to translate the term more literally identify > its meaning with the translation of "skull banner" -- which appears to > constitute a gloss of tzontecomatl (skull > or gourd?) and pantli (banner). 'Banner' is pamitl. It is one of those nouns which drops its stem i when the absolutive suffix -tl is absent, and when m comes into final position, it delabializes to -n. This is why in possessed forms and some compounds, one finds the form pan. There has been some back-formation from this pan stem, so you might find pantli meaning 'banner.' However, the second element in tzompantli is a different word, namely pantli, which means 'row' or 'wall.' The tzom- is the stem form of tzontli 'head of hair. In this case, the final n of the stem assimilates in labialization to the following p of pantli. There are plenty of representations of the tzompantli, so we know it was a rack of skulls, not scalps. It appears that the tzom- in this case stands for the compound tzontecomatl literally 'scalp pot,' which is the Nahuatl word for skull. From idiez at MAC.COM Wed Jan 5 17:44:10 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:44:10 -0600 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: <766F8D8C-5F36-11D9-A282-000D93B10E22@nantucket.net> Message-ID: I get a laugh everytime I drive by the city crematorium in Zacatecas. Somebody got the bright idea to put tzompantli in big letter across the front of the building. One of these days I may go in and tell the administrator, or then again, maybe I won't. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Jan 5, 2005, at 10:25 AM, Frances Karttunen wrote: > On Jan 5, 2005, at 10:47 AM, Archaeology Institute wrote: > >> During the course of my research I found diverse translations and >> interpretations of the term "tzompantli." For one, the term tends to >> be >> interpreted as "skull rack" in the most generic sense, whereas those >> who have had occasion to translate the term more literally identify >> its meaning with the translation of "skull banner" -- which appears to >> constitute a gloss of tzontecomatl (skull >> or gourd?) and pantli (banner). > > > 'Banner' is pamitl. It is one of those nouns which drops its stem i > when the absolutive suffix -tl is absent, and when m comes into final > position, it delabializes to -n. This is why in possessed forms and > some compounds, one finds the form pan. There has been some > back-formation from this pan stem, so you might find pantli meaning > 'banner.' > > However, the second element in tzompantli is a different word, namely > pantli, which means 'row' or 'wall.' > > The tzom- is the stem form of tzontli 'head of hair. In this case, the > final n of the stem assimilates in labialization to the following p of > pantli. > > There are plenty of representations of the tzompantli, so we know it > was a rack of skulls, not scalps. It appears that the tzom- in this > case stands for the compound tzontecomatl literally 'scalp pot,' which > is the Nahuatl word for skull. > From Tlaloc at UMD.EDU Wed Jan 5 20:58:17 2005 From: Tlaloc at UMD.EDU (John B. Carlson) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 15:58:17 -0500 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 5 January 2005 Ruben, Here's one important paper you should know: Miller, Virginia E. 1999 The Skull Rack in Mesoamerica. In Mesoamerican Architecture as a Cultural Symbol (Jeff Karl Kowalski, Editor):pp. 340-360. Oxford University Press, New York. I will be interested in replies concerning the etymology as well as nuances of meaning associated with the Tzompantli. In Tlaxcala, there are a number of people with the last named Tzompantzi. I would be sure the original name was Tzompantzin. Wonder what these guys did for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin? John Carlson At 7:47 AM -0800 1/5/05, Archaeology Institute wrote: >Dear Colleagues, > > I've just completed an initial draft of a manuscript on the >subject of the Mesoamerican tzompantli. During the course of my >research I found diverse translations and interpretations of the >term "tzompantli." For one, the term tends to be >interpreted as "skull rack" in the most generic sense, whereas those >who have had occasion to translate the term more literally identify >its meaning with the translation of "skull banner" -- which appears >to constitute a gloss of tzontecomatl (skull >or gourd?) and pantli (banner). Any assistance from the nahua >language experts out there would be most appreciated, and >acknowledged in print. PS: By the way, the manuscript in question >is titled "The Divine Gourd Tree: Tzompantli Skull Racks, >Decapitation Rituals, and Human Trophies in Ancient Mesoamerica." > >Best Regards, > >Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director >Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization >Social and Behavioral Sciences >California State University Monterey Bay >100 Campus Center >Seaside, California 93955-8001 > >Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu >Voice: 831-582-3760 >Fax: 831-582-3566 >http://archaeology.csumb.edu >http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ -- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ John B. Carlson, Ph.D., Director The Center for Archaeoastronomy P. O. Box "X" College Park, MD 20741-3022 USA (301) 864-6637 office <== {fax by arrangement} http://www.archaeoastronomy.net PLEASE REMOVE: from your address book. THIS ADDRESS NOW DISCONTINUED. From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jan 6 00:50:43 2005 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 19:50:43 -0500 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli (an old question?) Message-ID: Original Message: ----------------- From: Frances Karttunen karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:25:50 -0500 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Translation of Tzompantli On Jan 5, 2005, at 10:47 AM, Archaeology Institute wrote: > During the course of my research I found diverse translations and > interpretations of the term "tzompantli." For one, the term tends to > be > interpreted as "skull rack" in the most generic sense, whereas those > who have had occasion to translate the term more literally identify > its meaning with the translation of "skull banner" -- which appears to > constitute a gloss of tzontecomatl (skull > or gourd?) and pantli (banner). 'Banner' is pamitl. It is one of those nouns which drops its stem i when the absolutive suffix -tl is absent, and when m comes into final position, it delabializes to -n. This is why in possessed forms and some compounds, one finds the form pan. There has been some back-formation from this pan stem, so you might find pantli meaning 'banner.' However, the second element in tzompantli is a different word, namely pantli, which means 'row' or 'wall.' The tzom- is the stem form of tzontli 'head of hair. In this case, the final n of the stem assimilates in labialization to the following p of pantli. There are plenty of representations of the tzompantli, so we know it was a rack of skulls, not scalps. It appears that the tzom- in this case stands for the compound tzontecomatl literally 'scalp pot,' which is the Nahuatl word for skull. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Just a note to say I think there’s evidence that the question has been asked before. It looks to me as though this discussion is illustrated in the triptych of The Garden of Earthly Delights/El Jardín de las Delicias (which I would prefer to call La Bariedad del Mundo), in the Tree-man in the right panel. 1) Somebody, I think Keith Moxey, has identified the Tree-man as part of a human skull. I haven't contributed any such creative interpretations, but 2) I do think the big horse’s or bovine skull next to it has to do with a skull rack since I’m reading the Tree-man as a representation of the year 3-House/casa/calli. 3) There’s a pantli/banner on top of the Tree-man. I thought it had to do with representing the Pater Noster in Latin in rebus form as pantli-something. 4) There’s a big chunk of hair at the right of the human face that makes the Tree-man look like a man and not just a tree. I thought it was to combine images of the bright star Capella with the Capella Sistina/Sistine Chapel, as part of the very complicated European iconography. In other words there are logical reasons for a skull (human or horse) to be there, a pantli, and some hair, but I thought they were parts of four different systems of iconography that are all combined in this very messy picture, a Nahuatl chronology, Nahuatl words that can be mnemonics for Latin, a reference to Rome (a chapel), and a star name. It’s even kind of interesting that there’s no gourd, because “gourd” is one of the possible translations of a hapax in the book of Jonah (illustrated in Durer’s engraving of St. Jerome) and the artist might have deliberately omitted it from the right panel and put gourds in the center panel instead. But it looks as though the combination of images could have to do with a discussion where somebody explained that the word tzompantli had to do with hair and what it had to do with the word pantli. So before 1528 which is the apparent date of the triptych somebody was asking what a tzompantli was and it looks as though they got a similar explanation of the compound word. It’s interesting to think about trying to figure out what kinds of explanations the Europeans were getting, whether they would ask “what is that?” or “what does that name mean?” and get an etymology for an answer. (It might not be exactly an explanation if the questions stop with translations like “Sitting Bull.”) I keep using the term European because it’s hard to tell whether the discussion was in Spanish or Italian, and maybe the most likely explanation is that it was both, that Peter Martyr wasn't the only one who spoke Spanish but was more comfortable with Italian. There is a good photo at www.wga.hu/index.html, listed under Hieronymus Bosch (I say incorrectly). There are also a drawing and engraving of just the Tree-man, which I think are much later and reflect no knowledge of Nahuatl at all. I’m working on an article trying to show that they’re late copies on other grounds since the people who think they’re important aren't into Nahuatl etymology but can relate to the question of whether a Bruegel signature is real or fake. But I think it’s an illustration of Nahuatl briefly being an area of inquiry for “humanists” in the sixteenth century. The problem with the triptych as evidence is that it’s full of pictures that only look like riddles with answers once you see one of the answers. This is something I don't think I would ever have noticed if the question and answer hadn't arrived as an e-mail, so thank you to Archaeology Institute (I don’t have the e-mail with your name on it) and Frances Karttunen. Susan Gilchrist -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From zorrah at ATT.NET Sun Jan 9 03:39:51 2005 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 03:39:51 +0000 Subject: Ancient Nahuatl Poems (Online) by Daniel G. Brinton Message-ID: Sometime ago, because I was so impressed with the work, I began reading and posting poems at my website from the book "Ancient Nahuatl Poems." This book of poems was translated and edited by Daniel G. Brinton, and it was first published in 1887 (I believe). Now due to �The Project Gutenberg,� the entire work is available online as an electronic book for free! It's a fascinating text with some astounding and moving poetry! The "NOTES" section provides interesting and valuable information as well: http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/2/2/1/12219/12219-h/12219-h.htm Two of my favorite poems from this text are: I. Cuicapeuhcayotl. I. Song at the Beginning. III. Occe al mismo tono tlamelauhcayotl. III. Another Plain Song to the Same Tune. kuale chias (a way of saying �go well� upon departing in Cuentepec, Morelos, MX) citlalin xochime Nahuatl Tlahtolkalli http://nahuatl.info/nahuatl.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM Wed Jan 12 15:47:48 2005 From: Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM (Irene Padilla) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:47:48 -0800 Subject: Translation In-Reply-To: <681797B4-5F41-11D9-8C45-003065C46A4A@mac.com> Message-ID: Can someone please translate in Nahuatl Only you can make me happy. thanks Irene -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micc2 at COX.NET Wed Jan 12 17:33:35 2005 From: micc2 at COX.NET (Mario E. Aguilar) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:33:35 -0500 Subject: Translation Message-ID: My humble and uneducated suggestion: zan te'huatl tihueliz tinechchihuaz pa:quiani (using future as present as in some modern nahuatl dialects) mario > > From: Irene Padilla > Date: 2005/01/12 Wed AM 10:47:48 EST > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Translation > > Can someone please translate in Nahuatl > > Only you can make me happy. > thanks > Irene > From institute at CSUMB.EDU Wed Jan 12 19:46:50 2005 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:46:50 -0800 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "John B. Carlson" writes: >Ruben, > >Here's one important paper you should know: > >Miller, Virginia E. >1999 The Skull Rack in Mesoamerica. In Mesoamerican Architecture >as a Cultural Symbol (Jeff Karl Kowalski, Editor):pp. 340-360. Oxford >University Press, New York. > >I will be interested in replies concerning the etymology as well as >nuances of meaning associated with the Tzompantli. In Tlaxcala, there >are a number of people with the last named Tzompantzi. I would be >sure the original name was Tzompantzin. Wonder what these guys did >for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local >municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin? > >John Carlson Dear John, Thank you for your prompt response...I was away at the Magical Kingdom in Anaheim (aka: Disneyland) with my family and returned just a couple of days ago. It has been some time since I last had contact with you (Aztec exhibit at the Denver Museum of Natural History), but wanted to let you know that I currently have a manuscript under review regarding my recent archaeoastronomy (solar geometry) studies of the California missions. At present, I have a dozen sites with confirmed solstice and equinox orientations...with attendant illuminations of tabernacle features and the like. As for the tzompantli article, that is currently under review for a volume on The Taking and Displaying of Human Trophies by Amerindians, and the article by Virginia Miller proved a great point of departure, but unlike the Miller paper, my analysis centers on a cosmological and iconographic analysis of the architectural feature in question. In my paper, I draw on the legend of the Hero Twins as a basis for interpreting extant associations between tzompantli and ballcourt features, and in turn, on the cults of decapitation that co-occur with said features that first appear in Gulf lowland contexts...or that point of departure attributed to such groups as the Quiche (the authors of the Popol Vuh). Beyond that, I await further commentaries and reviews as to the paper, but Arthur Demarest (one of the conference paper reviewers) was particularly interested in my results and interpretations...so I am hoping for the best as per the current reviews. Best Regards, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. -- This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus protection at CSUMB, visit: http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ From idiez at MAC.COM Wed Jan 12 20:22:35 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:22:35 -0600 Subject: Translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Zan tah tihueli tinechyolpactiz. On Jan 12, 2005, at 9:47 AM, Irene Padilla wrote: > > Can someone please translate in Nahuatl > > Only you can make me happy. > thanks > Irene John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 751 bytes Desc: not available URL: From institute at CSUMB.EDU Wed Jan 12 21:04:14 2005 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:04:14 -0800 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: <766F8D8C-5F36-11D9-A282-000D93B10E22@nantucket.net> Message-ID: Nahua language and culture discussion writes: >On Jan 5, 2005, at 10:47 AM, Archaeology Institute wrote: > >> During the course of my research I found diverse translations and >> interpretations of the term "tzompantli." For one, the term tends to >> be >> interpreted as "skull rack" in the most generic sense, whereas those >> who have had occasion to translate the term more literally identify >> its meaning with the translation of "skull banner" -- which appears to >> constitute a gloss of tzontecomatl (skull >> or gourd?) and pantli (banner). > > >'Banner' is pamitl. It is one of those nouns which drops its stem i >when the absolutive suffix -tl is absent, and when m comes into final >position, it delabializes to -n. This is why in possessed forms and >some compounds, one finds the form pan. There has been some >back-formation from this pan stem, so you might find pantli meaning >'banner.' > >However, the second element in tzompantli is a different word, namely >pantli, which means 'row' or 'wall.' > >The tzom- is the stem form of tzontli 'head of hair. In this case, the >final n of the stem assimilates in labialization to the following p of >pantli. > >There are plenty of representations of the tzompantli, so we know it >was a rack of skulls, not scalps. It appears that the tzom- in this >case stands for the compound tzontecomatl literally 'scalp pot,' which >is the Nahuatl word for skull. > >-- >This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus protection at CSUMB, visit: > >http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ > Dear Dr. Karttunen, Thank you for your prompt and authoratative response to my query regarding the etymology of the term "tzompantli." I had noted a reference to 'scalp pots" attributed to you in the Virginia Miller paper regarding tzompantli architecture. It is therefore appropriate that you would have been one of the first to respond to the query in question. Having been away for the past few days (at the Magic Kingdom in Anaheim...aka: Disneyland) I had not had an opportunity before now to thank you for your response. I will acknowledge your etymology of the term in my forthcoming paper. Please do have a great day! Best Regards, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. -- This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus protection at CSUMB, visit: http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ From macuil2 at MSN.COM Wed Jan 12 23:20:33 2005 From: macuil2 at MSN.COM (Raul macuil martinez) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:20:33 +0100 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Saludos... Yo soy de Tlaxcala y efectivamente mucha gente que lleva por último apellido el de Tzompantzi, principalmente el municipio que se llama Santa Ana Chiauhtempan y en el poblado llamado Contla de Juan Cuamatzi. Pero mi pregunta es la siguiente: A que se refieren exactamente al decir : Wonder what these guys did for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin?. Podrían ser un poco más especifícos?. Miec tlaçocamati. >From: Archaeology Institute >Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >Subject: Re: Translation of Tzompantli >Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:46:50 -0800 > >"John B. Carlson" writes: > >Ruben, > > > >Here's one important paper you should know: > > > >Miller, Virginia E. > >1999 The Skull Rack in Mesoamerica. In Mesoamerican Architecture > >as a Cultural Symbol (Jeff Karl Kowalski, Editor):pp. 340-360. Oxford > >University Press, New York. > > > >I will be interested in replies concerning the etymology as well as > >nuances of meaning associated with the Tzompantli. In Tlaxcala, there > >are a number of people with the last named Tzompantzi. I would be > >sure the original name was Tzompantzin. Wonder what these guys did > >for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local > >municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin? > > > >John Carlson > >Dear John, > > Thank you for your prompt response...I was away at the Magical >Kingdom in Anaheim (aka: Disneyland) with my family and returned just a >couple of days ago. It has been some time since I last had contact with >you (Aztec exhibit at the Denver Museum >of Natural History), but wanted to let you know that I currently have a >manuscript under review regarding my recent archaeoastronomy (solar >geometry) studies of the California missions. At present, I have a dozen >sites with confirmed solstice and >equinox orientations...with attendant illuminations of tabernacle features >and the like. > > As for the tzompantli article, that is currently under review for >a volume on The Taking and Displaying of Human Trophies by Amerindians, and >the article by Virginia Miller proved a great point of departure, but >unlike the Miller paper, my analysis >centers on a cosmological and iconographic analysis of the architectural >feature in question. In my paper, I draw on the legend of the Hero Twins >as a basis for interpreting extant associations between tzompantli and >ballcourt features, and in >turn, on the cults of decapitation that co-occur with said features that >first appear in Gulf lowland contexts...or that point of departure >attributed to such groups as the Quiche (the authors of the Popol Vuh). >Beyond that, I await further >commentaries and reviews as to the paper, but Arthur Demarest (one of the >conference paper reviewers) was particularly interested in my results and >interpretations...so I am hoping for the best as per the current reviews. > >Best Regards, > > >Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director >Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization >Social and Behavioral Sciences >California State University Monterey Bay >100 Campus Center >Seaside, California 93955-8001 > >Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu >Voice: 831-582-3760 >Fax: 831-582-3566 >http://archaeology.csumb.edu >http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ > > > > > >Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message >is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for >the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the >intended recipient, you are >notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or >use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this >communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, >attaching the original message, and >delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which >your computer is connected. > >Thank you. > > >-- >This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous >attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening >attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus >protection at CSUMB, visit: > >http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ _________________________________________________________________ T1msn Search. Todo lo que buscas ahora más rapido http://search.t1msn.com.mx/ From Tlaloc at UMD.EDU Thu Jan 13 15:40:37 2005 From: Tlaloc at UMD.EDU (John B. Carlson) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:40:37 -0500 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:20 AM +0100 1/13/05, Raul macuil martinez wrote: >Saludos... > > Yo soy de Tlaxcala y efectivamente mucha gente que lleva por último >apellido el de Tzompantzi, principalmente el municipio que se llama Santa >Ana Chiauhtempan y en el poblado llamado Contla de Juan Cuamatzi. Pero mi >pregunta es la siguiente: > >A que se refieren exactamente al decir : Wonder what these guys did >for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local >municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin?. > >Podrían ser un poco más especifícos?. > > Miec tlaçocamati. > Raul, and anyone else, I am sorry if this was misunderstood. This was simply my sense of humor kicking in. There have been local politicians named Tzompantzi running for office there in Tlaxcala, and having someone like the "Keeper of the Skullrack" as your local Alcalde or whatever might be a bit daunting. Monsieur le Guillotine? Heads will roll... But in some sense, I do have a serious question here. In pre-Hispanic times, if someone had the TITLE of Tzompantzin, what would have been his function? Would he have been the official or priest who was in charge of the tzompantli? There would be a lot to know about who constructed these things... maintained them... put the heads on them... etc. I was both wondering about some of those details AND asking about the origin of the name Tzompantzi. And yes, I agree, I have seen the family name around west and northwest side of the Malintzi in Tlaxcala. Any ideas about the etymology of this apellido? John -- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ John B. Carlson, Ph.D., Director The Center for Archaeoastronomy P. O. Box "X" College Park, MD 20741-3022 USA (301) 864-6637 office <== {fax by arrangement} http://www.archaeoastronomy.net PLEASE REMOVE: from your address book. THIS ADDRESS NOW DISCONTINUED. From cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jan 13 16:40:27 2005 From: cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET (Joanna Sanchez) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:40:27 -0500 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli Message-ID: I have to say that I appreciate the light hearted spirit in which the comments made by Dr. Carlson were offered, and do not wish to take him or anyone else to task. But I would say that we sometimes risk losing our perspective and our credibility when we talk about elements of Mexican culture in such ways. I was frankly more surprised to read the following: I get a laugh everytime I drive by the city crematorium in Zacatecas. Somebody got the bright idea to put tzompantli in big letter across the front of the building. One of these days I may go in and tell the administrator, or then again, maybe I won't. I couldn't help thinking that this suggests several things- albeit unintentionally- that the administrator might be unaware of the meaning, that we can illuminate aspects of a culture for its oblivious members (or not...). I feel that any implication of exclusionism or exoticism, even in fun, affects how we are perceived, and detracts from our good intentions, which are born of a real respect and love we all share for the subject . Joanna Sanchez From dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX Thu Jan 13 17:08:07 2005 From: dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX (David Wright) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:08:07 -0600 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli Message-ID: >Any ideas about the etymology of this apellido? Estimadísimo John: In my Access database on the glosses and painted signs in the Huichapan Codex, I have a hill sign with a Huastec (?) (nose with big perforation) inside and a flag on top (f. 30r / p. 59). There's a clump of hair/400 grapheme next to it, but it's not clear if it's associated with the latter toponymic sign or the smoking dead lord bundle in a jaguar skin-covered seat which is adjacent to the toponym. The Otomi alphabetic text includes the word Ama'bex[te Ant'oho] (/ama'bexte ant'oho/), "lugar de banderas, el cerro" (reconstructed from an earlier appearance, in the text on the previous page). (In case that vowel doesn't survive the trip through cyberspace, it's the Latin o+e.) There's also a one-word gloss in Nahuatl: "Çopantepec" (the first letter is a cedilla, in case it doesn't make it). Considering the Otomi scribe's imperfect command of Nahuatl in other glosses, I broke the Nahuatl gloss down three ways: Çopantepec (1) /zo:pa:nte:pec/ (2) /zo:pante:pec/ (3) /tzo:mpa:nte:pec/ (1) /zo:/ + (/pa:ntli/ - /tli/) + (te:petl/ - /tl/) + (/co/ - /o/) (2) /zo:/ + /pan/ + (/te:petl/ - /tl/) + (/co/ - /o/) (3) (/tzo:ntli/ - /tli/) (/n/ > /m/) + (/pa:n/ - /tli/) + (/te:petl/ - /tl/) + (/co/ - /o/) (1) verbo: "perforarse/sangrarse" · sustantivo: "bandera/estandarte" · sustantivo: "cerro" · sufijo locativo: "dentro de/en/por/sobre" (2) verbo: "perforarse/sangrarse" · posposición: "dentro de/durante/en/por/sobre" · sustantivo: "cerro" · sufijo locativo: "dentro de/en/por/sobre" (3) sustantivo: pelo · sustantivo: "bandera" "estandarte" · sustantivo: "cerro" · sufijo locativo: "dentro de/en/por/sobre" (1) Zopantepec, "en el cerro de la bandera de la perforación sangrante" (2) Zopantepec, "en el cerro del lugar de perforarse para sangrarse" (3) Tzompantepec, "en el cerro de la bandera de pelo" [tzompantli también significa "el colorín" y "el altar de cráneos", por lo que tzompantepec podría traducirse también como "en el cerro de los colorines" y "en el cerro del altar de cráneos"] (Colorín or zompantle is Erythrina americana [or E. coralloides] "coral tree" in English, with spectacular [and edible] red flowers at the ends of its branches and bright red [and poisonous] seeds in pods which some use in jewelry. The tree can be grown by planting a branch.) Any of the latter translations could relate to the painted sign, considering the use of cuasihomophonic morpheme switching in some of the graphic signs of early colonial period painted manuscripts of central Mexico. Toponyms in Otomi and Nahuatl usually (but not always) closely replicate each other semantically (calques), but the Otomi gloss relates one way or another to all three Nahuatl glosses. I hope this is useful; it's all that I have on the word tzompantli. If anybody sees any problems please let me know. Paz, David From dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX Thu Jan 13 17:21:42 2005 From: dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX (David Wright) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:21:42 -0600 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli Message-ID: P.S. (just for the record) I see the cedilla made it but the vowel didn't. It's an O fused with an E, representing a vowel midway between Spanish O and E (pronounced like an E but rounding the lips). There was a typo in the first form (straight transcription); I automatically transcribed the TT as a T' (' is a glottal occlusive). Here they are again, corrected and with the OE unfused: paleographic transcription: amabexte anttoehoe modernized phonetic transcription: /ama'bexte ant'oehoe/ Today the Otomi write that OE with an underlined O. From micc2 at COX.NET Thu Jan 13 17:52:42 2005 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:52:42 -0800 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hace 25 años yo y mi esposa estuvimos en Santa Ana Chautempan y compramos muchas cosas preciosas de lana, y algodon inlcuyendo sarapes, cobijas, sueteres y morales. Todavia hay mucha artesania alli? O le ha pasado lo que paso en Chiconcua, Estado de Mexico, adonde las atresanias tradicionales de tela se han reemplazado con t-shirts de fayuca de Guess, Budweisser, Levis, etc; discos CD pirata, etc? Raul macuil martinez wrote: > Saludos... > > Yo soy de Tlaxcala y efectivamente mucha gente que lleva por último > apellido el de Tzompantzi, principalmente el municipio que se llama Santa > Ana Chiauhtempan y en el poblado llamado Contla de Juan Cuamatzi. Pero mi > pregunta es la siguiente: > > A que se refieren exactamente al decir : Wonder what these guys did > for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local > municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin?. > > Podrían ser un poco más especifícos?. > > Miec tlaçocamati. > > > > > >> From: Archaeology Institute >> Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >> To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >> Subject: Re: Translation of Tzompantli >> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:46:50 -0800 >> >> "John B. Carlson" writes: >> >Ruben, >> > >> >Here's one important paper you should know: >> > >> >Miller, Virginia E. >> >1999 The Skull Rack in Mesoamerica. In Mesoamerican Architecture >> >as a Cultural Symbol (Jeff Karl Kowalski, Editor):pp. 340-360. Oxford >> >University Press, New York. >> > >> >I will be interested in replies concerning the etymology as well as >> >nuances of meaning associated with the Tzompantli. In Tlaxcala, there >> >are a number of people with the last named Tzompantzi. I would be >> >sure the original name was Tzompantzin. Wonder what these guys did >> >for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local >> >municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin? >> > >> >John Carlson >> >> Dear John, >> >> Thank you for your prompt response...I was away at the Magical >> Kingdom in Anaheim (aka: Disneyland) with my family and returned just a >> couple of days ago. It has been some time since I last had contact with >> you (Aztec exhibit at the Denver Museum >> of Natural History), but wanted to let you know that I currently have a >> manuscript under review regarding my recent archaeoastronomy (solar >> geometry) studies of the California missions. At present, I have a >> dozen >> sites with confirmed solstice and >> equinox orientations...with attendant illuminations of tabernacle >> features >> and the like. >> >> As for the tzompantli article, that is currently under review >> for >> a volume on The Taking and Displaying of Human Trophies by >> Amerindians, and >> the article by Virginia Miller proved a great point of departure, but >> unlike the Miller paper, my analysis >> centers on a cosmological and iconographic analysis of the architectural >> feature in question. In my paper, I draw on the legend of the Hero >> Twins >> as a basis for interpreting extant associations between tzompantli and >> ballcourt features, and in >> turn, on the cults of decapitation that co-occur with said features that >> first appear in Gulf lowland contexts...or that point of departure >> attributed to such groups as the Quiche (the authors of the Popol Vuh). >> Beyond that, I await further >> commentaries and reviews as to the paper, but Arthur Demarest (one of >> the >> conference paper reviewers) was particularly interested in my results >> and >> interpretations...so I am hoping for the best as per the current >> reviews. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> >> Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director >> Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization >> Social and Behavioral Sciences >> California State University Monterey Bay >> 100 Campus Center >> Seaside, California 93955-8001 >> >> Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu >> Voice: 831-582-3760 >> Fax: 831-582-3566 >> http://archaeology.csumb.edu >> http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ >> >> >> >> >> >> Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail >> message >> is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended >> only for >> the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the >> intended recipient, you are >> notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic >> storage or >> use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this >> communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, >> attaching the original message, and >> delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which >> your computer is connected. >> >> Thank you. >> >> >> -- >> This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially >> dangerous >> attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening >> attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus >> protection at CSUMB, visit: >> >> http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ > > > _________________________________________________________________ > T1msn Search. Todo lo que buscas ahora más rapido > http://search.t1msn.com.mx/ > > From institute at CSUMB.EDU Thu Jan 13 18:08:59 2005 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:08:59 -0800 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nahua language and culture discussion writes: >At 12:20 AM +0100 1/13/05, Raul macuil martinez wrote: > >>Saludos... > >> > >> Yo soy de Tlaxcala y efectivamente mucha gente que lleva por último > >>apellido el de Tzompantzi, principalmente el municipio que se llama Santa > >>Ana Chiauhtempan y en el poblado llamado Contla de Juan Cuamatzi. Pero mi > >>pregunta es la siguiente: > >> > >>A que se refieren exactamente al decir : Wonder what these guys did > >>for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local > >>municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin?. > >> > >>Podrían ser un poco más especifícos?. > >> > >> Miec tlaçocamati. > >> > > > >Raul, and anyone else, > > >I am sorry if this was misunderstood. This was > >simply my sense of humor kicking in. There have > >been local politicians named Tzompantzi running > >for office there in Tlaxcala, and having someone > >like the "Keeper of the Skullrack" as your local > >Alcalde or whatever might be a bit daunting. > >Monsieur le Guillotine? Heads will roll... > >But in some sense, I do have a serious question > >here. In pre-Hispanic times, if someone had the > >TITLE of Tzompantzin, what would have been his > >function? Would he have been the official or > >priest who was in charge of the tzompantli? There > >would be a lot to know about who constructed > >these things... maintained them... put the heads > >on them... etc. I was both wondering about some > >of those details AND asking about the origin of > >the name Tzompantzi. And yes, I agree, I have > >seen the family name around west and northwest > >side of the Malintzi in Tlaxcala. > > >Any ideas about the etymology of this apellido? > > >John > >-- > Dear Colleagues, In the aforementioned study of the tzompantli and its cosmological and iconographic associations (Mendoza 2004) which led to my original question on the etymology of the term "tzompantli", I found that the Mexica in fact maintained ritual specialists whose function it was to decapitate, flay, and skewer human heads on the Huey-tzompantli of Mexico Tenochtitlan. In addition, the association of the tonal or tonalli with scalps, and hair, and solar radiation or light, underlies the Mexica practice of retaining scalps or hair (atop the skewered "scalp pots") of those human skulls impaled on the Huey-tzompantli. The Huey-tzompantli was in effect an instrument for capturing, and thereby, offering, the tonalli of countless Ixiptla deity impersonators identified with such festivals as the Panquetzaliztli. In fact, during the course of my research, I found a very direct association between the Huey-tzompantli of Tenochtitlan and the "First Fruits" harvest festivals of the Panquetzaliztli, and the ritual reenactment of the sacrifice of some 400 or innumerable "Star-Men" (ala Nicholson, 1971) Ixiptla deity impersonators known as the Centzon Huitznahua. My argument is that the Huey-tzompantli was in effect identified with the First Fruits harvest, Mixcoatl and or Coyolxauqui in his or her guise as the Milky Way, and the efforts of the Mexica to capture the primordial essence, and those centripetal forces centered on the cosmological and supernatural Serpent Mountain today identified with the Huey teocalli or Templo Mayor. The Huey-tzompantli was in effect the Divine Gourd Tree whose associations with the underworld portal or "Chasm of Creation" (identified with ballcourts ) in turn links it to the Dark Road that bifurcates the Milky Way, and serves as the repository for the tzontecomatl scalp pots or Star Men or Warriors dispatched in the primordial battle between Huitzilopochtli, Coyolxauqui, and the Centzon Huitznahua star warriors of the First Creation. My argument is that the Gulf Lowland identification of the ballcourt and tzompantli with such groups as the Quiche and Huasteca serves as the archetype for the mythological construct in question. PS: Because my paper on this topic is currently under review by Arthur Demarest and others on the editorial panel for Rick Chacon and David Dye's forthcoming book (i.e., "The Divine Gourd Tree: Tzompantli Skull Racks, Decapitation Rituals, and Human Trophies in Ancient Mesoamerica. In The Taking and Displaying of Human Trophies by Amerindians, Edited by Richard Chacon and David Dye. New York: Plenum Press [Under Review]), I am not presently at liberty to circulate the paper in this venue. Best Regards, > Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. -- This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus protection at CSUMB, visit: http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ From macuil2 at MSN.COM Thu Jan 13 22:10:52 2005 From: macuil2 at MSN.COM (Raul macuil martinez) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:10:52 +0100 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: <003a01c4f992$96fcae20$de0540c8@dcwright> Message-ID: En Tlaxcala, existe un pueblo llamado San Salvador Tzompantepec, y en esta localidad efectivamente creen árboles de colorín. De ahi el nombre del lugar, además de que este pueblo está a las faldas del cerro que lleva el mismo nombre. >From: David Wright >Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >Subject: Re: Translation of Tzompantli >Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:08:07 -0600 > > >Any ideas about the etymology of this apellido? > >Estimadísimo John: > >In my Access database on the glosses and painted signs in the Huichapan >Codex, I have a hill sign with a Huastec (?) (nose with big perforation) >inside and a flag on top (f. 30r / p. 59). There's a clump of hair/400 >grapheme next to it, but it's not clear if it's associated with the latter >toponymic sign or the smoking dead lord bundle in a jaguar skin-covered >seat >which is adjacent to the toponym. The Otomi alphabetic text includes the >word Ama'bex[te Ant'oho] (/ama'bexte ant'oho/), "lugar de banderas, el >cerro" (reconstructed from an earlier appearance, in the text on the >previous page). (In case that vowel doesn't survive the trip through >cyberspace, it's the Latin o+e.) There's also a one-word gloss in Nahuatl: >"Çopantepec" (the first letter is a cedilla, in case it doesn't make it). >Considering the Otomi scribe's imperfect command of Nahuatl in other >glosses, I broke the Nahuatl gloss down three ways: > >Çopantepec > >(1) /zo:pa:nte:pec/ >(2) /zo:pante:pec/ >(3) /tzo:mpa:nte:pec/ > >(1) /zo:/ + (/pa:ntli/ - /tli/) + (te:petl/ - /tl/) + (/co/ - /o/) >(2) /zo:/ + /pan/ + (/te:petl/ - /tl/) + (/co/ - /o/) >(3) (/tzo:ntli/ - /tli/) (/n/ > /m/) + (/pa:n/ - /tli/) + (/te:petl/ - >/tl/) >+ (/co/ - /o/) > >(1) verbo: "perforarse/sangrarse" · sustantivo: "bandera/estandarte" · >sustantivo: "cerro" · sufijo locativo: "dentro de/en/por/sobre" >(2) verbo: "perforarse/sangrarse" · posposición: "dentro >de/durante/en/por/sobre" · sustantivo: "cerro" · sufijo locativo: "dentro >de/en/por/sobre" >(3) sustantivo: pelo · sustantivo: "bandera" "estandarte" · sustantivo: >"cerro" · sufijo locativo: "dentro de/en/por/sobre" > >(1) Zopantepec, "en el cerro de la bandera de la perforación sangrante" >(2) Zopantepec, "en el cerro del lugar de perforarse para sangrarse" >(3) Tzompantepec, "en el cerro de la bandera de pelo" [tzompantli también >significa "el colorín" y "el altar de cráneos", por lo que tzompantepec >podría traducirse también como "en el cerro de los colorines" y "en el >cerro >del altar de cráneos"] > >(Colorín or zompantle is Erythrina americana [or E. coralloides] "coral >tree" in English, with spectacular [and edible] red flowers at the ends of >its branches and bright red [and poisonous] seeds in pods which some use in >jewelry. The tree can be grown by planting a branch.) > >Any of the latter translations could relate to the painted sign, >considering >the use of cuasihomophonic morpheme switching in some of the graphic signs >of early colonial period painted manuscripts of central Mexico. Toponyms in >Otomi and Nahuatl usually (but not always) closely replicate each other >semantically (calques), but the Otomi gloss relates one way or another to >all three Nahuatl glosses. > >I hope this is useful; it's all that I have on the word tzompantli. If >anybody sees any problems please let me know. > >Paz, > >David _________________________________________________________________ T1msn Search. Todo lo que buscas ahora más rapido http://search.t1msn.com.mx/ From macuil2 at MSN.COM Thu Jan 13 22:18:03 2005 From: macuil2 at MSN.COM (Raul macuil martinez) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:18:03 +0100 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: <41E6B56A.3010807@cox.net> Message-ID: Afortunadamente en el caso de Tlaxcala es muy particular, porque la población tadavía tiene mucho arraigo a sus creencias y por supuesto a sus artesanías. En Santa Ana Chiauhtempan todavía existen muchos productos elaborados con lana, aunque no se escapa de la introducción de "nuevos" productos, pero la artesanía en lana, es el motor principal de la económia de Santa Ana. > >Hace 25 años yo y mi esposa estuvimos en Santa Ana Chautempan y >compramos muchas cosas preciosas de lana, y algodon >inlcuyendo sarapes, cobijas, sueteres y morales. > >Todavia hay mucha artesania alli? O le ha pasado lo que paso en >Chiconcua, Estado de Mexico, adonde las atresanias tradicionales de >tela se han reemplazado con t-shirts de fayuca de Guess, Budweisser, >Levis, etc; discos CD pirata, etc? > > > >Raul macuil martinez wrote: > >>Saludos... >> >> Yo soy de Tlaxcala y efectivamente mucha gente que lleva por último >>apellido el de Tzompantzi, principalmente el municipio que se llama Santa >>Ana Chiauhtempan y en el poblado llamado Contla de Juan Cuamatzi. Pero mi >>pregunta es la siguiente: >> >>A que se refieren exactamente al decir : Wonder what these guys did >>for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local >>municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin?. >> >>Podrían ser un poco más especifícos?. >> >> Miec tlaçocamati. >> >> >> >> >> >>>From: Archaeology Institute >>>Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >>>To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >>>Subject: Re: Translation of Tzompantli >>>Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:46:50 -0800 >>> >>>"John B. Carlson" writes: >>> >Ruben, >>> > >>> >Here's one important paper you should know: >>> > >>> >Miller, Virginia E. >>> >1999 The Skull Rack in Mesoamerica. In Mesoamerican Architecture >>> >as a Cultural Symbol (Jeff Karl Kowalski, Editor):pp. 340-360. Oxford >>> >University Press, New York. >>> > >>> >I will be interested in replies concerning the etymology as well as >>> >nuances of meaning associated with the Tzompantli. In Tlaxcala, there >>> >are a number of people with the last named Tzompantzi. I would be >>> >sure the original name was Tzompantzin. Wonder what these guys did >>> >for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local >>> >municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin? >>> > >>> >John Carlson >>> >>>Dear John, >>> >>> Thank you for your prompt response...I was away at the Magical >>>Kingdom in Anaheim (aka: Disneyland) with my family and returned just a >>>couple of days ago. It has been some time since I last had contact with >>>you (Aztec exhibit at the Denver Museum >>>of Natural History), but wanted to let you know that I currently have a >>>manuscript under review regarding my recent archaeoastronomy (solar >>>geometry) studies of the California missions. At present, I have a >>>dozen >>>sites with confirmed solstice and >>>equinox orientations...with attendant illuminations of tabernacle >>>features >>>and the like. >>> >>> As for the tzompantli article, that is currently under review >>>for >>>a volume on The Taking and Displaying of Human Trophies by >>>Amerindians, and >>>the article by Virginia Miller proved a great point of departure, but >>>unlike the Miller paper, my analysis >>>centers on a cosmological and iconographic analysis of the architectural >>>feature in question. In my paper, I draw on the legend of the Hero >>>Twins >>>as a basis for interpreting extant associations between tzompantli and >>>ballcourt features, and in >>>turn, on the cults of decapitation that co-occur with said features that >>>first appear in Gulf lowland contexts...or that point of departure >>>attributed to such groups as the Quiche (the authors of the Popol Vuh). >>>Beyond that, I await further >>>commentaries and reviews as to the paper, but Arthur Demarest (one of >>>the >>>conference paper reviewers) was particularly interested in my results >>>and >>>interpretations...so I am hoping for the best as per the current >>>reviews. >>> >>>Best Regards, >>> >>> >>>Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director >>>Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization >>>Social and Behavioral Sciences >>>California State University Monterey Bay >>>100 Campus Center >>>Seaside, California 93955-8001 >>> >>>Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu >>>Voice: 831-582-3760 >>>Fax: 831-582-3566 >>>http://archaeology.csumb.edu >>>http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail >>>message >>>is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended >>>only for >>>the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the >>>intended recipient, you are >>>notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic >>>storage or >>>use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this >>>communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, >>>attaching the original message, and >>>delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which >>>your computer is connected. >>> >>>Thank you. >>> >>> >>>-- >>>This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially >>>dangerous >>>attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening >>>attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus >>>protection at CSUMB, visit: >>> >>>http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ >> >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>T1msn Search. Todo lo que buscas ahora más rapido >>http://search.t1msn.com.mx/ >> >> _________________________________________________________________ T1msn Search. Todo lo que buscas ahora más rapido http://search.t1msn.com.mx/ From idiez at MAC.COM Thu Jan 13 22:22:52 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:22:52 -0600 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: <001201c4f98e$97bdb100$8ea05b40@JS> Message-ID: Joanna, I am Mexican, and in the course of my work as a teacher in Zacatecas, I constantly joke with my students (both mestizo and indigenous) about the racism that permeates Mexican society as well as the general lack of understanding and misuse of indigenous culture. I guess you could say it's one of my teaching strategies. Although it wasn't my intention, it sounds like I offended you when I wrote, "I get a laugh everytime I drive by the city crematorium in Zacatecas. Somebody got the bright idea to put tzompantli in big letter across the front of the building. One of these days I may go in and tell the administrator, or then again, maybe I won't." I would appreciate it if you could explain what you mean by "exclusionism" and "exoticism". John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Jan 13, 2005, at 10:40 AM, Joanna Sanchez wrote: > I have to say that I appreciate the light hearted spirit in which the > comments made by Dr. Carlson were offered, and do not wish to take him > or > anyone else to task. But I would say that we sometimes risk losing our > perspective and our credibility when we talk about elements of Mexican > culture in such ways. I was frankly more surprised to read the > following: > I get a laugh everytime I drive by the city crematorium in Zacatecas. > Somebody got the bright idea to put tzompantli in big letter across > the front of the building. One of these days I may go in and tell the > administrator, or then again, maybe I won't. > > I couldn't help thinking that this suggests several things- albeit > unintentionally- that the administrator might be unaware of the > meaning, > that we can illuminate aspects of a culture for its oblivious members > (or > not...). > I feel that any implication of exclusionism or exoticism, even in > fun, > affects how we are perceived, and detracts from our good intentions, > which > are born of a real respect and love we all share for the subject . > Joanna Sanchez > From micc2 at COX.NET Fri Jan 14 22:59:23 2005 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:59:23 -0800 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: me da muchisimo gusto saber esto!!! Dios quiere que tengamos la oportunidad de visitar Tlaxcallan una vez mas!!! gracias por la inforación! atenamente, mario e. aguilar www.mexicayotl.org Raul macuil martinez wrote: > Afortunadamente en el caso de Tlaxcala es muy particular, porque la > población tadavía tiene mucho arraigo a sus creencias y por supuesto a > sus > artesanías. > En Santa Ana Chiauhtempan todavía existen muchos productos elaborados > con > lana, aunque no se escapa de la introducción de "nuevos" productos, > pero la > artesanía en lana, es el motor principal de la económia de Santa Ana. > > >> >> Hace 25 años yo y mi esposa estuvimos en Santa Ana Chautempan y >> compramos muchas cosas preciosas de lana, y algodon >> inlcuyendo sarapes, cobijas, sueteres y morales. >> >> Todavia hay mucha artesania alli? O le ha pasado lo que paso en >> Chiconcua, Estado de Mexico, adonde las atresanias tradicionales de >> tela se han reemplazado con t-shirts de fayuca de Guess, Budweisser, >> Levis, etc; discos CD pirata, etc? >> >> >> >> Raul macuil martinez wrote: >> >>> Saludos... >>> >>> Yo soy de Tlaxcala y efectivamente mucha gente que lleva por último >>> apellido el de Tzompantzi, principalmente el municipio que se llama >>> Santa >>> Ana Chiauhtempan y en el poblado llamado Contla de Juan Cuamatzi. >>> Pero mi >>> pregunta es la siguiente: >>> >>> A que se refieren exactamente al decir : Wonder what these guys did >>> for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local >>> municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin?. >>> >>> Podrían ser un poco más especifícos?. >>> >>> Miec tlaçocamati. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: Archaeology Institute >>>> Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >>>> >>>> To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: Translation of Tzompantli >>>> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:46:50 -0800 >>>> >>>> "John B. Carlson" writes: >>>> >Ruben, >>>> > >>>> >Here's one important paper you should know: >>>> > >>>> >Miller, Virginia E. >>>> >1999 The Skull Rack in Mesoamerica. In Mesoamerican Architecture >>>> >as a Cultural Symbol (Jeff Karl Kowalski, Editor):pp. 340-360. Oxford >>>> >University Press, New York. >>>> > >>>> >I will be interested in replies concerning the etymology as well as >>>> >nuances of meaning associated with the Tzompantli. In Tlaxcala, there >>>> >are a number of people with the last named Tzompantzi. I would be >>>> >sure the original name was Tzompantzin. Wonder what these guys did >>>> >for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local >>>> >municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin? >>>> > >>>> >John Carlson >>>> >>>> Dear John, >>>> >>>> Thank you for your prompt response...I was away at the Magical >>>> Kingdom in Anaheim (aka: Disneyland) with my family and returned >>>> just a >>>> couple of days ago. It has been some time since I last had contact >>>> with >>>> you (Aztec exhibit at the Denver Museum >>>> of Natural History), but wanted to let you know that I currently >>>> have a >>>> manuscript under review regarding my recent archaeoastronomy (solar >>>> geometry) studies of the California missions. At present, I have a >>>> dozen >>>> sites with confirmed solstice and >>>> equinox orientations...with attendant illuminations of tabernacle >>>> features >>>> and the like. >>>> >>>> As for the tzompantli article, that is currently under review >>>> for >>>> a volume on The Taking and Displaying of Human Trophies by >>>> Amerindians, and >>>> the article by Virginia Miller proved a great point of departure, but >>>> unlike the Miller paper, my analysis >>>> centers on a cosmological and iconographic analysis of the >>>> architectural >>>> feature in question. In my paper, I draw on the legend of the Hero >>>> Twins >>>> as a basis for interpreting extant associations between tzompantli and >>>> ballcourt features, and in >>>> turn, on the cults of decapitation that co-occur with said features >>>> that >>>> first appear in Gulf lowland contexts...or that point of departure >>>> attributed to such groups as the Quiche (the authors of the Popol >>>> Vuh). >>>> Beyond that, I await further >>>> commentaries and reviews as to the paper, but Arthur Demarest (one of >>>> the >>>> conference paper reviewers) was particularly interested in my results >>>> and >>>> interpretations...so I am hoping for the best as per the current >>>> reviews. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director >>>> Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization >>>> Social and Behavioral Sciences >>>> California State University Monterey Bay >>>> 100 Campus Center >>>> Seaside, California 93955-8001 >>>> >>>> Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu >>>> Voice: 831-582-3760 >>>> Fax: 831-582-3566 >>>> http://archaeology.csumb.edu >>>> http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail >>>> message >>>> is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended >>>> only for >>>> the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the >>>> intended recipient, you are >>>> notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic >>>> storage or >>>> use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this >>>> communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by >>>> e-mail, >>>> attaching the original message, and >>>> delete the original message from your computer, and any network to >>>> which >>>> your computer is connected. >>>> >>>> Thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially >>>> dangerous >>>> attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening >>>> attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus >>>> protection at CSUMB, visit: >>>> >>>> http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> T1msn Search. Todo lo que buscas ahora más rapido >>> http://search.t1msn.com.mx/ >>> >>> > > _________________________________________________________________ > T1msn Search. Todo lo que buscas ahora más rapido > http://search.t1msn.com.mx/ > > From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Wed Jan 19 00:56:55 2005 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 00:56:55 +0000 Subject: CGI models of Aztec stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Someone wanted info rmation about CGI models of Aztec stuff. See http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1885786 From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jan 21 08:10:58 2005 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 03:10:58 -0500 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli (gourd tree) Message-ID: I wonder if someone can help me with names of books or articles relating to Los Dias de los Muertos and how it came to be okay with Catholics to observe the festival around the time of All Saints/All Souls, even though the altares with skulls might have reminded them of tzompantli and the festival is also around the same time of year as the Jewish Sukkot/Tabernacles, which involves building small booths of foliage, often decorated with fruit and often looking like altares without the skulls. In the triptych I’m studying (El Jardín de las Delicias/The Garden of Earthly Delights, which I would rather call La Bariedad del Mundo following an older inventory), which I think is all about Tabernacles, there seem to be images connected with tzompantli (skull and pantli) and also translating the book of Jonah (Jonah 4:6-11). The picture of a gourd tree seems to be part of both discussions. There’s nothing like a “gourd tree” in the Latin Vulgate only because Saint Jerome didn't want to include a plant name that people wouldn't recognize. I think the reason it’s a monstrous image in The Garden of Earthly Delights/El Jardín de las Delicias/La Bariedad del Mundo, and it’s white, is that Martin Luther had published a commentary on the book of Jonah in 1526, Der Prophet Jona ausgelegt, where he arbitrarily suggested vitis alba (a white vine) or Wilderüben (some kind of wild radish or beet). In the 1534 Luther Bible it was a Kürbis (gourd) and then at some point in later editions it became a Staude (shrub or bush). I suppose it wasn't so much that making it a white vine was heretical, but more that overall Luther’s commentary on Jonah was extremely heretical. (This might solve my problem of how to persuade art historians who don't want to read Nahuatl hieroglyphics that the drawing is post-Luther, since even though in the drawing the gourd tree isn't white, pre-Luther there doesn't seem to be a reason for it to be a monstrosity.) I think another of the several sources of the bizarre-looking image is a description by Peter Martyr in one of the Decades of a tree-house he said the Indians called the domus aurea/casa de oro, a way of saying the local cacique was like Nero. Peter Martyr was also always making a note of when an Indian temple had a stairway leading up to the top, something prohibited in the Bible, and I think that is why the Tree-man has a ladder. The painting makes the confusion look like a horrible mess, but it’s interesting that at some point the Church apparently decided it was all okay and altares and ofrendas could continue. On the other Cortés et al. were certainly horrified by the tzompantli when they saw all the skulls. So I wonder if all these pieces fit together. It looks as though at least at one point (around 1528) the discussion of the word tzompantli and the variant Bible translations were familiar to some of the same people, who had also heard all about the tzompantli in Tenochtitlán. Or maybe it’s just because Jewish translators were involved in both discussions that the painting seems to equate the issues of evaluating what Indians were doing and identifying Biblical plants. I’ve copied part of the St. Jerome-St. Augustine correspondence below. I don't know how often translations of Nahuatl words might have been affected by topics in Bible translation. Susan Gilchrist (excerpt) From Bible Research Internet Resources for Students of Scripture, .bible- researcher.com, Contents copyright © 2001-2005 by Michael D. Marlowe. “Correspondence of Augustine and Jerome concerning the Latin Translation of the Bible. An interesting episode in the history of Bible translation was the exchange of letters between Augustine (Bishop of Hippo) and Jerome, concerning Jerome's new Latin translation of the Old Testament. Up to that time all Latin versions had been based upon the Greek version (called the translation of "the Seventy" or the Septuagint). But Augustine had learned that Jerome was now making a translation from the Hebrew, which differed in many places from the Septuagint. (Jerome had previously translated from the Septuagint, but after 390 he began to translate direct from the Hebrew. See the history of Jerome's work in the article by S. Angus on this site). Augustine calls upon Jerome to justify this departure from the customary text, tells of a disturbance which has arisen on this account, and urges him to reconsider. Jerome replies with characteristic vigor. The English translations below are excerpted from the Letters of Augustine (No. 28, 71, 82) and the Letters of Jerome (No. 112) in A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, Translated into English with Prolegomena and Explanatory Notes under the Editorial Supervision of Henry Wace and Philip Schaff. (Oxford: Parker; New York: Christian Literature Co., 1890-1900).”---- Jerome to Augustine. Written A.D. 404.---- ... You tell me that I have given a wrong translation of some word in Jonah, and that a worthy bishop narrowly escaped losing his charge through the clamorous tumult of his people, which was caused by the different rendering of this one word. At the same time, you withhold from me what the word was which I have mistranslated; thus taking away the possibility of my saying anything in my own vindication, lest my reply should be fatal to your objection. Perhaps it is the old dispute about the gourd which has been revived, after slumbering for many long years since the illustrious man, who in that day combined in his own person the ancestral honours of the Cornelii and of Asinius Pollio, brought against me the charge of giving in my translation the word "ivy" instead of "gourd." I have already given a sufficient answer to this in my commentary on Jonah. At present, I deem it enough to say that in that passage, where the Septuagint has "gourd," and Aquila and the others have rendered the word "ivy" (kissos), the Hebrew MS. has "ciceion," which is in the Syriac tongue, as now spoken, "ciceia." It is a kind of shrub having large leaves like a vine, and when planted it quickly springs up to the size of a small tree, standing upright by its own stem, without requiring any support of canes or poles, as both gourds and ivy do. If, therefore, in translating word for word, I had put the word "ciceia," no one would know what it meant; if I had used the word "gourd," I would have said what is not found in the Hebrew. I therefore put down "ivy," that I might not differ from all other translators. But if your Jews said, either through malice or ignorance, as you yourself suggest, that the word is in the Hebrew text which is found in the Greek and Latin versions, it is evident that they were either unacquainted with Hebrew, or have been pleased to say what was not true, in order to make sport of the gourd-planters.// In closing this letter, I beseech you to have some consideration for a soldier who is now old and has long retired from active service, and not to force him to take the field and again expose his life to the chances of war. Do you, who are young, and who have been appointed to the conspicuous seat of pontifical dignity, give yourself to teaching the people, and enrich Rome with new stores from fertile Africa. I am contented to make but little noise in an obscure corner of a monastery, with one to hear me or read to me.---- Augustine to Jerome. Written A.D. 405---- ... I beg of you ... to send us your translation of the Septuagint, which I did not know that you had published ... in order that we may be delivered, so far as is possible, from the consequences of the notable incompetency of those who, whether qualified or not, have attempted a Latin translation; and in order that those who think that I look with jealousy on your useful labours, may at length, if it be possible, perceive that my only reason for objecting to the public reading of your translation from the Hebrew in our churches was, lest, bringing forward anything which was, as it were, new and opposed to the authority of the Septuagint version, we should trouble by serious cause of offense the flocks of Christ, whose ears and hearts have become accustomed to listen to that version to which the seal of approbation was given by the apostles themselves. Wherefore, as to that shrub in the book of Jonah, if in the Hebrew it is neither "gourd" nor "ivy," but something else which stands erect, supported by its own stem without other props, I would prefer to call it "gourd" as in all our Latin versions; for I do not think that the Seventy would have rendered it thus at random, had they not known that the plant was something like a gourd ... Original Message: ----------------- From: Archaeology Institute institute at CSUMB.EDU Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:08:59 -0800 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Translation of Tzompantli Nahua language and culture discussion writes: >At 12:20 AM +0100 1/13/05, Raul macuil martinez wrote: > >>Saludos... > >> > >> Yo soy de Tlaxcala y efectivamente mucha gente que lleva por último > >>apellido el de Tzompantzi, principalmente el municipio que se llama Santa > >>Ana Chiauhtempan y en el poblado llamado Contla de Juan Cuamatzi. Pero mi > >>pregunta es la siguiente: > >> > >>A que se refieren exactamente al decir : Wonder what these guys did > >>for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local > >>municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin?. > >> > >>Podrían ser un poco más especifícos?. > >> > >> Miec tlaçocamati. > >> > > > >Raul, and anyone else, > > >I am sorry if this was misunderstood. This was > >simply my sense of humor kicking in. There have > >been local politicians named Tzompantzi running > >for office there in Tlaxcala, and having someone > >like the "Keeper of the Skullrack" as your local > >Alcalde or whatever might be a bit daunting. > >Monsieur le Guillotine? Heads will roll... > >But in some sense, I do have a serious question > >here. In pre-Hispanic times, if someone had the > >TITLE of Tzompantzin, what would have been his > >function? Would he have been the official or > >priest who was in charge of the tzompantli? There > >would be a lot to know about who constructed > >these things... maintained them... put the heads > >on them... etc. I was both wondering about some > >of those details AND asking about the origin of > >the name Tzompantzi. And yes, I agree, I have > >seen the family name around west and northwest > >side of the Malintzi in Tlaxcala. > > >Any ideas about the etymology of this apellido? > > >John > >-- > Dear Colleagues, In the aforementioned study of the tzompantli and its cosmological and iconographic associations (Mendoza 2004) which led to my original question on the etymology of the term "tzompantli", I found that the Mexica in fact maintained ritual specialists whose function it was to decapitate, flay, and skewer human heads on the Huey-tzompantli of Mexico Tenochtitlan. In addition, the association of the tonal or tonalli with scalps, and hair, and solar radiation or light, underlies the Mexica practice of retaining scalps or hair (atop the skewered "scalp pots") of those human skulls impaled on the Huey-tzompantli. The Huey-tzompantli was in effect an instrument for capturing, and thereby, offering, the tonalli of countless Ixiptla deity impersonators identified with such festivals as the Panquetzaliztli. In fact, during the course of my research, I found a very direct association between the Huey- tzompantli of Tenochtitlan and the "First Fruits" harvest festivals of the Panquetzaliztli, and the ritual reenactment of the sacrifice of some 400 or innumerable "Star-Men" (ala Nicholson, 1971) Ixiptla deity impersonators known as the Centzon Huitznahua. My argument is that the Huey-tzompantli was in effect identified with the First Fruits harvest, Mixcoatl and or Coyolxauqui in his or her guise as the Milky Way, and the efforts of the Mexica to capture the primordial essence, and those centripetal forces centered on the cosmological and supernatural Serpent Mountain today identified with the Huey teocalli or Templo Mayor. The Huey- tzompantli was in effect the Divine Gourd Tree whose associations with the underworld portal or "Chasm of Creation" (identified with ballcourts ) in turn links it to the Dark Road that bifurcates the Milky Way, and serves as the repository for the tzontecomatl scalp pots or Star Men or Warriors dispatched in the primordial battle between Huitzilopochtli, Coyolxauqui, and the Centzon Huitznahua star warriors of the First Creation. My argument is that the Gulf Lowland identification of the ballcourt and tzompantli with such groups as the Quiche and Huasteca serves as the archetype for the mythological construct in question. PS: Because my paper on this topic is currently under review by Arthur Demarest and others on the editorial panel for Rick Chacon and David Dye's forthcoming book (i.e., "The Divine Gourd Tree: Tzompantli Skull Racks, Decapitation Rituals, and Human Trophies in Ancient Mesoamerica. In The Taking and Displaying of Human Trophies by Amerindians, Edited by Richard Chacon and David Dye. New York: Plenum Press [Under Review]), I am not presently at liberty to circulate the paper in this venue. Best Regards, > Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender- privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. -- This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus protection at CSUMB, visit: http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Sun Jan 30 08:02:20 2005 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:02:20 +0000 Subject: CGI images of Aztecl stuff In-Reply-To: <290440-22005152181058209@M2W064.mail2web.com> Message-ID: In August 2004 someone on this group wanted CGI (= Computer Generated Imaging) images of Aztec buildings that were in Tenochtitlan. I passed that query onto http://www.renderosity.com , and I got these answers:- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1. Aztec stuff anywhere? by Anthony Appleyard on 8/13/04 01:03 Someone on an email group that I am in, is wanting images of buildings in Tenochtitlan. Tenochtitlan is an Aztec city that used to be where the center of Mexico City is now. The emperor Montezuma (correctly Motêuczômah) ruled there. Does anyone know where there are CGI models of Aztec buildings (and weapons etc)? Realistic, not fantasy or sexy, please. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 2. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by MachineClaw on 8/13/04 01:12 runtimedna.com all your aztec needs ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 3. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by Anthony Appleyard on 8/13/04 01:38 Attached Link: http://www.runtimedna.com/search.ez I have just searched at this link. "tenochtitlan" found nothing. "aztec" found a few garments etc but no buildings. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 4. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by MachineClaw on 8/13/04 01:57 go to store link, then search by catagory link, then architecture and scroll through. Here are a few items: http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=EV%2D039&ParentID=61026 The New World Vol. 1 - Pre-Columbian http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=TP%2D070&ParentID=73450 The New World Vol. 2 - Pre-Columbian http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=TP%2D079&ParentID=77042 Amara - Aztec Princess for V3 http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=SM%2D004&ParentID=79747 bunch of outfits in the aztec style there, ya just have to shop around. the new world vol 1 and vol 2 are probably closest to what your looking for. there are also vine packs and forest overgrowth packs that work very well on all the sets runtime has, as well as desolation (dark burned out textures) sets for various sets too. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 5. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by xantor on 8/13/04 02:32 Attached Link: http://www.3dcafe.com/asp/architex.asp There is a free aztec city at 3dcafe at the landmarks part. It is called az_city.zip. 3ds format ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 6. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by Little_Dragon on 8/13/04 03:39 keihan has a primitive-weapon set for sale at PoserPros, which includes an Aztec sword, spear, and dagger. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 7. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by jade_nyc on 8/16/04 11:55 Attached Link: http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=EV%2DRD071&ParentID=75755 The Aztec hair in Real Deals is pretty cool and a steal at $2.50 ;) http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=EV%2DRD071&ParentID=75755 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 8. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by muralist on 1/18/05 17:38 http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=34376 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 9. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by xoconostle on 1/29/05 22:11 Attached Link: http://tinyurl.com/33okt The Freak Primitve set at DAZ includes an atlatl. If anyone would like to see some of the RDNA Aztec buildings and clothing in a render, you may click the link to see an image I made using them a few months ago. [That image is directly at http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=709469 ) [DAZ is at http://www.daz3d.com/ ) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From indus56 at TELUSPLANET.NET Sun Jan 30 20:46:37 2005 From: indus56 at TELUSPLANET.NET (WP Anderson) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:46:37 -0700 Subject: CGI images of Aztecl stuff In-Reply-To: <20050130080220.2958.qmail@web86708.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Anthony Appleyard, Though other people may have requested something like this as well, I am indeed the author of a query regarding sources for such material. Thanks so much for pursuing this. Best, Paul Anderson ***************************************************** Paul Anderson, Hunger's Brides. http://www.hungersbrides.com Based on the life of Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz in 17th-century Mexico. Published by: Random House (Canada), Carroll & Graf (US), Rubikon (Serbia), Constable & Robinson (UK), Pendo Verlag (Germany). ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: >In August 2004 someone on this group wanted CGI (= Computer Generated >Imaging) images of Aztec buildings that were in Tenochtitlan. I passed >that query onto http://www.renderosity.com , and I got these answers:- >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >1. Aztec stuff anywhere? by Anthony Appleyard on 8/13/04 01:03 > >Someone on an email group that I am in, is wanting images of buildings >in Tenochtitlan. Tenochtitlan is an Aztec city that used to be where >the center of Mexico City is now. The emperor Montezuma (correctly >Motêuczômah) ruled there. Does anyone know where there are CGI models >of Aztec buildings (and weapons etc)? Realistic, not fantasy or sexy, >please. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >2. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by MachineClaw on 8/13/04 01:12 > >runtimedna.com >all your aztec needs >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >3. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by Anthony Appleyard on 8/13/04 01:38 > >Attached Link: http://www.runtimedna.com/search.ez > >I have just searched at this link. "tenochtitlan" found nothing. >"aztec" found a few garments etc but no buildings. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >4. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by MachineClaw on 8/13/04 01:57 > >go to store link, then search by catagory link, then architecture and >scroll through. Here are a few items: > >http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=EV%2D039&ParentID=61026 > >The New World Vol. 1 - Pre-Columbian >http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=TP%2D070&ParentID=73450 > >The New World Vol. 2 - Pre-Columbian >http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=TP%2D079&ParentID=77042 > >Amara - Aztec Princess for V3 >http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=SM%2D004&ParentID=79747 > >bunch of outfits in the aztec style there, ya just have to shop around. > >the new world vol 1 and vol 2 are probably closest to what your looking >for. there are also vine packs and forest overgrowth packs that work >very well on all the sets runtime has, as well as desolation (dark >burned out textures) sets for various sets too. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >5. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by xantor on 8/13/04 02:32 > >Attached Link: http://www.3dcafe.com/asp/architex.asp > >There is a free aztec city at 3dcafe at the landmarks part. >It is called az_city.zip. 3ds format >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >6. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by Little_Dragon on 8/13/04 03:39 > >keihan has a primitive-weapon set for sale at PoserPros, which includes >an Aztec sword, spear, and dagger. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >7. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by jade_nyc on 8/16/04 11:55 > >Attached Link: >http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=EV%2DRD071&ParentID=75755 > >The Aztec hair in Real Deals is pretty cool and a steal at $2.50 ;) > >http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=EV%2DRD071&ParentID=75755 > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >8. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by muralist on 1/18/05 17:38 > >http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=34376 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >9. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by xoconostle on 1/29/05 22:11 > >Attached Link: http://tinyurl.com/33okt > >The Freak Primitve set at DAZ includes an atlatl. If anyone would like >to see some of the RDNA Aztec buildings and clothing in a render, you >may click the link to see an image I made using them a few months ago. >[That image is directly at >http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=709469 ) > >[DAZ is at http://www.daz3d.com/ ) > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > -- ***************************************************** Paul Anderson, Hunger's Brides. http://www.hungersbrides.com Based on the life of Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz in 17th-century Mexico. Published by: Random House (Canada), Carroll & Graf (US), Rubikon (Serbia), Constable & Robinson (UK), Pendo Verlag (Germany). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Mon Jan 31 23:01:05 2005 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:01:05 -0700 Subject: A Question for Experts Here Message-ID: I'm in the process of publishing an English translation of ANÓNIMO MEXICANO and want to include a few illustrations from other early codices, including for instance, Codice Xolotl (which was published as a facsimile edition by UNAM in cooperation with the University of Utah Press back in the 1950s. Here's my question, when the original source is a Nahuatl manuscript such as Xolotl or Anonymo where the original is housed in a library, does the library typically assert control of all copyright authority so that they are the entity that must grant permission or is the several hundred years age of such a document place it into public domain? Richley From idiez at MAC.COM Mon Jan 31 23:58:14 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:58:14 -0600 Subject: Summer 2005 Nahuatl program in Zacatecas and Tepecxitla Message-ID: Tohuampoyohuan, The Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology and the Language Center of the Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas are happy to announce the Summer 2005 Intensive course in Older and Modern Nahuatl for non-native speakers (June 20 to July 29). An English syllabus follows, and .pdf versions of both this and the Spanish version are available at our website: www.idiez.org.mx, or if the university server is down, homepage.mac.com/idiez/idiezweb. The Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology and the Language Center of the Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Intensive course in Older and Modern Nahuatl for non-native speakers Summer 2005 (June 20 to July 29) Instructors: John Sullivan, Ph.D., Lic. Delfina de la Cruz, and indigenous teaching assistants. General objectives 1. Develop students' oral comprehension, speaking, reading, writing, knowledge of language structure, as well as their cultural wisdom and sensibility, in order to facilitate their ability to communicate effectively, correctly and creatively in everyday situations. 2. Provide students with instruments and experiences which demonstrate the continuity between past and present Nahua culture, through the study of colonial and modern texts, conversation with native speakers, and a residency in a Nahua community. 3. Penetrate into the historical, economic, political, social and cultural aspects of Nahua civilization. 4. Prepare non-native speaking students to take university level humanities courses taught in Nahuatl alongside native speakers. 5. Prepare advanced students to work on individual and collective research projects in the Nahuatl language. Registration requirements: 1. Copy of birth certificate or CURP for Mexicans. Copy of passport for foreigners (student visa is not necessary). 2. two credential-size photographs Academic credit: Academic credit for 140 hours is issued in the form of an official transcript through the Language Center of the Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas. Testing: 1. Beginning students' progress will be evaluated in three categories: 40%, three tests on Older Nahuatl (grammar and translation). 40%, three tests on Modern Nahuatl (oral comprehension, speech production, reading, writing, and grammar). 20%, research report. 2. Intermediate students' progress will be evaluated in three categories: 40%, three tests on Older Nahuatl (grammar, transcription, translation, and commentary). 40%, three tests on Modern Nahuatl (reading, writing, and grammar) 20%, research report. 3. Advanced students' will be evaluated based on their research paper written in Modern Nahuatl. Calendar and activities: There will be six weeks of work from June 20 to July 29, 2005, for a total of 140 hours. The academic activities will be distributed according to the following four components: 1. OLDER NAHUATL Students will meet two hours per day, five days per week during six weeks (four weeks at the Institute in Zacatecas, and two weeks in the indigenous community of Tepecxitla, Veracruz) in order to study Older Nahuatl. a). Students at the beginner's level will work on chapters one through eight of James Lockhart's Nahuatl as Written, and will translate some elementary selections of colonial texts. b). Students at the intermediate level will work on chapters nine through sixteen of James Lockhart's Nahuatl as Written, and will begin to transcribe, translate and comment colonial manuscripts. c). Students at the advanced level will work exclusively on the transcription, analysis and commentary of colonial manuscripts. Materials for the Older Nahuatl component: All students must have personal copies of the following texts: 1. Karttunen, Francis. 1983. An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl. Texas Linguistics Series. Austin: University of Texas Press. 2. Lockhart, James. 2001. Examples and Texts of Nahuatl as Written. Los Angeles: UCLA Latin American Center Publications. 3. Lockhart, James. 2001. Nahuatl as Written. Lessons in Older Written Nahuatl, with Copious Examples and Texts. Stanford: Stanford University Press. 4. Molina, Alonso de. 1977(1555-1571). Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana y mexicana y castellana. Colección “Biblioteca Porrúa” 44. México: Porrúa. In addition, all students will receive, free of charge, numerous grammar charts and vocabulary lists, as well as photocopies and digitalized images of the manuscripts which will be studied. 2. MODERN NAHUATL Students will meet two hours per day, five days per week during six weeks (four weeks at the Institute in Zacatecas, and two weeks in the indigenous community of Tepecxitla) to study Modern Nahuatl with a native-speaking professor. Beginning level: The first two weeks will entail an immersion experience, in which students will learn to converse in Nahuatl without the use of translations or grammar. This component is based on the early methodology of linguists Stephen Krashen and Tracy Terrell, and will conclude with a listening comprehension and oral production test. During a second two-week phase, students will continue with the previous conversation activities. In addition, they will be introduced to the writing system and the three basic grammatical structures: the noun, verb, and relational phrases. The grammar studies will be based on a series of charts and written exercises developed by the professors. This stage will conclude with a conversation exam and a written exam on the writing system and the grammar. During a third two-week period, held in Tepecxitla, students will begin to read Modern Nahuatl texts, emphasizing comprehension. A basic bilingual vocabulary prepared by the professors will be used, and the course will end with a reading comprehension test. Intermediate level: Durante the six weeks of the course, students will read, analyze and comment, both orally and in writing, diverse Modern Nahuatl texts. In addition, they will study some complex linguístic structures. Advanced level: Students will research, en collaboration with the Institute's professors, a topic of Nahua culture, basing their work on older written sources, or on modern sources, be they oral or written. They will write a paper in modern Nahuatl on this topic. 3. INDIVIDUAL WORK WITH NATIVE SPEAKERS Each beginning student will meet with a native speaker for one hour per day during the four weeks in Zacatecas, in order to work on some aspect of the language and/or culture which interests him or her. For this reason, and before being admitted to the program, each student will need to submit a proposal of the project they would like to work on. The personnel at IDIEZ will advise prospective students on this process before course registration. Students may propose individual or group research projects, or they may participate in any of the projects in which IDIEZ is currently involved. For example, we are preparing the first monolingual dictionary of the Nahuatl language. All students will prepare and turn in a research report at the end of the course. 4. RESIDENCY IN THE HUASTECA REGION On July 16 we will travel to Tepecxitla, Veracruz where we will remain from July 17 to 29. Each student will live with a Nahua family and participate in daily activities, including the preparation and execution of the Chicomexochitl ceremony. We will also continue with formal instruction in conversation, reading and writing in Modern Nahuatl, and translation of older texts. Complete bibliography The complete bibliography of Nahua works contained in the Institute's library can be consulted at http://www.idiez.org.mx. Cost: The cost of the program is: 1. US$2070 for tuition. 2. US$750-900 for transportation, room and board for six weeks. The difference depends on the room and board options during the four-week stay in Zacatecas. The most expensive option is for an individual room with a family. The least expensive option is for a shared room with a family, a rented house shared with other students, or other similar options. 3. Not included are the course texts and the round trip between your point of origin and Zacatecas. 4. FLAS. Students at U.S. universities may obtain FLAS funding for this course through their home academic institution. For more information, please contact: John Sullivan, Ph.D. Home phone: +52 (492) 768-6048 Tacuba 152, int. 47 Mobile: 044-492-544-5985 Colonia Centro Office: +52 (492) 925-3415 or 925-3416 Zacatecas, Zac., 98000 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 México Email: idiez at mac.com http://www.idiez.org.mx -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 9679 bytes Desc: not available URL: From institute at CSUMB.EDU Wed Jan 5 15:47:44 2005 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 07:47:44 -0800 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I've just completed an initial draft of a manuscript on the subject of the Mesoamerican tzompantli. During the course of my research I found diverse translations and interpretations of the term "tzompantli." For one, the term tends to be interpreted as "skull rack" in the most generic sense, whereas those who have had occasion to translate the term more literally identify its meaning with the translation of "skull banner" -- which appears to constitute a gloss of tzontecomatl (skull or gourd?) and pantli (banner). Any assistance from the nahua language experts out there would be most appreciated, and acknowledged in print. PS: By the way, the manuscript in question is titled "The Divine Gourd Tree: Tzompantli Skull Racks, Decapitation Rituals, and Human Trophies in Ancient Mesoamerica." Best Regards, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. -- This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus protection at CSUMB, visit: http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Wed Jan 5 16:25:50 2005 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:25:50 -0500 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2005, at 10:47 AM, Archaeology Institute wrote: > During the course of my research I found diverse translations and > interpretations of the term "tzompantli." For one, the term tends to > be > interpreted as "skull rack" in the most generic sense, whereas those > who have had occasion to translate the term more literally identify > its meaning with the translation of "skull banner" -- which appears to > constitute a gloss of tzontecomatl (skull > or gourd?) and pantli (banner). 'Banner' is pamitl. It is one of those nouns which drops its stem i when the absolutive suffix -tl is absent, and when m comes into final position, it delabializes to -n. This is why in possessed forms and some compounds, one finds the form pan. There has been some back-formation from this pan stem, so you might find pantli meaning 'banner.' However, the second element in tzompantli is a different word, namely pantli, which means 'row' or 'wall.' The tzom- is the stem form of tzontli 'head of hair. In this case, the final n of the stem assimilates in labialization to the following p of pantli. There are plenty of representations of the tzompantli, so we know it was a rack of skulls, not scalps. It appears that the tzom- in this case stands for the compound tzontecomatl literally 'scalp pot,' which is the Nahuatl word for skull. From idiez at MAC.COM Wed Jan 5 17:44:10 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:44:10 -0600 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: <766F8D8C-5F36-11D9-A282-000D93B10E22@nantucket.net> Message-ID: I get a laugh everytime I drive by the city crematorium in Zacatecas. Somebody got the bright idea to put tzompantli in big letter across the front of the building. One of these days I may go in and tell the administrator, or then again, maybe I won't. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Jan 5, 2005, at 10:25 AM, Frances Karttunen wrote: > On Jan 5, 2005, at 10:47 AM, Archaeology Institute wrote: > >> During the course of my research I found diverse translations and >> interpretations of the term "tzompantli." For one, the term tends to >> be >> interpreted as "skull rack" in the most generic sense, whereas those >> who have had occasion to translate the term more literally identify >> its meaning with the translation of "skull banner" -- which appears to >> constitute a gloss of tzontecomatl (skull >> or gourd?) and pantli (banner). > > > 'Banner' is pamitl. It is one of those nouns which drops its stem i > when the absolutive suffix -tl is absent, and when m comes into final > position, it delabializes to -n. This is why in possessed forms and > some compounds, one finds the form pan. There has been some > back-formation from this pan stem, so you might find pantli meaning > 'banner.' > > However, the second element in tzompantli is a different word, namely > pantli, which means 'row' or 'wall.' > > The tzom- is the stem form of tzontli 'head of hair. In this case, the > final n of the stem assimilates in labialization to the following p of > pantli. > > There are plenty of representations of the tzompantli, so we know it > was a rack of skulls, not scalps. It appears that the tzom- in this > case stands for the compound tzontecomatl literally 'scalp pot,' which > is the Nahuatl word for skull. > From Tlaloc at UMD.EDU Wed Jan 5 20:58:17 2005 From: Tlaloc at UMD.EDU (John B. Carlson) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 15:58:17 -0500 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 5 January 2005 Ruben, Here's one important paper you should know: Miller, Virginia E. 1999 The Skull Rack in Mesoamerica. In Mesoamerican Architecture as a Cultural Symbol (Jeff Karl Kowalski, Editor):pp. 340-360. Oxford University Press, New York. I will be interested in replies concerning the etymology as well as nuances of meaning associated with the Tzompantli. In Tlaxcala, there are a number of people with the last named Tzompantzi. I would be sure the original name was Tzompantzin. Wonder what these guys did for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin? John Carlson At 7:47 AM -0800 1/5/05, Archaeology Institute wrote: >Dear Colleagues, > > I've just completed an initial draft of a manuscript on the >subject of the Mesoamerican tzompantli. During the course of my >research I found diverse translations and interpretations of the >term "tzompantli." For one, the term tends to be >interpreted as "skull rack" in the most generic sense, whereas those >who have had occasion to translate the term more literally identify >its meaning with the translation of "skull banner" -- which appears >to constitute a gloss of tzontecomatl (skull >or gourd?) and pantli (banner). Any assistance from the nahua >language experts out there would be most appreciated, and >acknowledged in print. PS: By the way, the manuscript in question >is titled "The Divine Gourd Tree: Tzompantli Skull Racks, >Decapitation Rituals, and Human Trophies in Ancient Mesoamerica." > >Best Regards, > >Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director >Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization >Social and Behavioral Sciences >California State University Monterey Bay >100 Campus Center >Seaside, California 93955-8001 > >Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu >Voice: 831-582-3760 >Fax: 831-582-3566 >http://archaeology.csumb.edu >http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ -- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ John B. Carlson, Ph.D., Director The Center for Archaeoastronomy P. O. Box "X" College Park, MD 20741-3022 USA (301) 864-6637 office <== {fax by arrangement} http://www.archaeoastronomy.net PLEASE REMOVE: from your address book. THIS ADDRESS NOW DISCONTINUED. From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jan 6 00:50:43 2005 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 19:50:43 -0500 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli (an old question?) Message-ID: Original Message: ----------------- From: Frances Karttunen karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:25:50 -0500 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Translation of Tzompantli On Jan 5, 2005, at 10:47 AM, Archaeology Institute wrote: > During the course of my research I found diverse translations and > interpretations of the term "tzompantli." For one, the term tends to > be > interpreted as "skull rack" in the most generic sense, whereas those > who have had occasion to translate the term more literally identify > its meaning with the translation of "skull banner" -- which appears to > constitute a gloss of tzontecomatl (skull > or gourd?) and pantli (banner). 'Banner' is pamitl. It is one of those nouns which drops its stem i when the absolutive suffix -tl is absent, and when m comes into final position, it delabializes to -n. This is why in possessed forms and some compounds, one finds the form pan. There has been some back-formation from this pan stem, so you might find pantli meaning 'banner.' However, the second element in tzompantli is a different word, namely pantli, which means 'row' or 'wall.' The tzom- is the stem form of tzontli 'head of hair. In this case, the final n of the stem assimilates in labialization to the following p of pantli. There are plenty of representations of the tzompantli, so we know it was a rack of skulls, not scalps. It appears that the tzom- in this case stands for the compound tzontecomatl literally 'scalp pot,' which is the Nahuatl word for skull. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Just a note to say I think there?s evidence that the question has been asked before. It looks to me as though this discussion is illustrated in the triptych of The Garden of Earthly Delights/El Jard?n de las Delicias (which I would prefer to call La Bariedad del Mundo), in the Tree-man in the right panel. 1) Somebody, I think Keith Moxey, has identified the Tree-man as part of a human skull. I haven't contributed any such creative interpretations, but 2) I do think the big horse?s or bovine skull next to it has to do with a skull rack since I?m reading the Tree-man as a representation of the year 3-House/casa/calli. 3) There?s a pantli/banner on top of the Tree-man. I thought it had to do with representing the Pater Noster in Latin in rebus form as pantli-something. 4) There?s a big chunk of hair at the right of the human face that makes the Tree-man look like a man and not just a tree. I thought it was to combine images of the bright star Capella with the Capella Sistina/Sistine Chapel, as part of the very complicated European iconography. In other words there are logical reasons for a skull (human or horse) to be there, a pantli, and some hair, but I thought they were parts of four different systems of iconography that are all combined in this very messy picture, a Nahuatl chronology, Nahuatl words that can be mnemonics for Latin, a reference to Rome (a chapel), and a star name. It?s even kind of interesting that there?s no gourd, because ?gourd? is one of the possible translations of a hapax in the book of Jonah (illustrated in Durer?s engraving of St. Jerome) and the artist might have deliberately omitted it from the right panel and put gourds in the center panel instead. But it looks as though the combination of images could have to do with a discussion where somebody explained that the word tzompantli had to do with hair and what it had to do with the word pantli. So before 1528 which is the apparent date of the triptych somebody was asking what a tzompantli was and it looks as though they got a similar explanation of the compound word. It?s interesting to think about trying to figure out what kinds of explanations the Europeans were getting, whether they would ask ?what is that?? or ?what does that name mean?? and get an etymology for an answer. (It might not be exactly an explanation if the questions stop with translations like ?Sitting Bull.?) I keep using the term European because it?s hard to tell whether the discussion was in Spanish or Italian, and maybe the most likely explanation is that it was both, that Peter Martyr wasn't the only one who spoke Spanish but was more comfortable with Italian. There is a good photo at www.wga.hu/index.html, listed under Hieronymus Bosch (I say incorrectly). There are also a drawing and engraving of just the Tree-man, which I think are much later and reflect no knowledge of Nahuatl at all. I?m working on an article trying to show that they?re late copies on other grounds since the people who think they?re important aren't into Nahuatl etymology but can relate to the question of whether a Bruegel signature is real or fake. But I think it?s an illustration of Nahuatl briefly being an area of inquiry for ?humanists? in the sixteenth century. The problem with the triptych as evidence is that it?s full of pictures that only look like riddles with answers once you see one of the answers. This is something I don't think I would ever have noticed if the question and answer hadn't arrived as an e-mail, so thank you to Archaeology Institute (I don?t have the e-mail with your name on it) and Frances Karttunen. Susan Gilchrist -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From zorrah at ATT.NET Sun Jan 9 03:39:51 2005 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 03:39:51 +0000 Subject: Ancient Nahuatl Poems (Online) by Daniel G. Brinton Message-ID: Sometime ago, because I was so impressed with the work, I began reading and posting poems at my website from the book "Ancient Nahuatl Poems." This book of poems was translated and edited by Daniel G. Brinton, and it was first published in 1887 (I believe). Now due to ?The Project Gutenberg,? the entire work is available online as an electronic book for free! It's a fascinating text with some astounding and moving poetry! The "NOTES" section provides interesting and valuable information as well: http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/2/2/1/12219/12219-h/12219-h.htm Two of my favorite poems from this text are: I. Cuicapeuhcayotl. I. Song at the Beginning. III. Occe al mismo tono tlamelauhcayotl. III. Another Plain Song to the Same Tune. kuale chias (a way of saying ?go well? upon departing in Cuentepec, Morelos, MX) citlalin xochime Nahuatl Tlahtolkalli http://nahuatl.info/nahuatl.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM Wed Jan 12 15:47:48 2005 From: Irene.Padilla at FMC-NA.COM (Irene Padilla) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:47:48 -0800 Subject: Translation In-Reply-To: <681797B4-5F41-11D9-8C45-003065C46A4A@mac.com> Message-ID: Can someone please translate in Nahuatl Only you can make me happy. thanks Irene -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From micc2 at COX.NET Wed Jan 12 17:33:35 2005 From: micc2 at COX.NET (Mario E. Aguilar) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:33:35 -0500 Subject: Translation Message-ID: My humble and uneducated suggestion: zan te'huatl tihueliz tinechchihuaz pa:quiani (using future as present as in some modern nahuatl dialects) mario > > From: Irene Padilla > Date: 2005/01/12 Wed AM 10:47:48 EST > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Translation > > Can someone please translate in Nahuatl > > Only you can make me happy. > thanks > Irene > From institute at CSUMB.EDU Wed Jan 12 19:46:50 2005 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:46:50 -0800 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "John B. Carlson" writes: >Ruben, > >Here's one important paper you should know: > >Miller, Virginia E. >1999 The Skull Rack in Mesoamerica. In Mesoamerican Architecture >as a Cultural Symbol (Jeff Karl Kowalski, Editor):pp. 340-360. Oxford >University Press, New York. > >I will be interested in replies concerning the etymology as well as >nuances of meaning associated with the Tzompantli. In Tlaxcala, there >are a number of people with the last named Tzompantzi. I would be >sure the original name was Tzompantzin. Wonder what these guys did >for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local >municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin? > >John Carlson Dear John, Thank you for your prompt response...I was away at the Magical Kingdom in Anaheim (aka: Disneyland) with my family and returned just a couple of days ago. It has been some time since I last had contact with you (Aztec exhibit at the Denver Museum of Natural History), but wanted to let you know that I currently have a manuscript under review regarding my recent archaeoastronomy (solar geometry) studies of the California missions. At present, I have a dozen sites with confirmed solstice and equinox orientations...with attendant illuminations of tabernacle features and the like. As for the tzompantli article, that is currently under review for a volume on The Taking and Displaying of Human Trophies by Amerindians, and the article by Virginia Miller proved a great point of departure, but unlike the Miller paper, my analysis centers on a cosmological and iconographic analysis of the architectural feature in question. In my paper, I draw on the legend of the Hero Twins as a basis for interpreting extant associations between tzompantli and ballcourt features, and in turn, on the cults of decapitation that co-occur with said features that first appear in Gulf lowland contexts...or that point of departure attributed to such groups as the Quiche (the authors of the Popol Vuh). Beyond that, I await further commentaries and reviews as to the paper, but Arthur Demarest (one of the conference paper reviewers) was particularly interested in my results and interpretations...so I am hoping for the best as per the current reviews. Best Regards, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. -- This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus protection at CSUMB, visit: http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ From idiez at MAC.COM Wed Jan 12 20:22:35 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:22:35 -0600 Subject: Translation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Zan tah tihueli tinechyolpactiz. On Jan 12, 2005, at 9:47 AM, Irene Padilla wrote: > > Can someone please translate in Nahuatl > > Only you can make me happy. > thanks > Irene John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 751 bytes Desc: not available URL: From institute at CSUMB.EDU Wed Jan 12 21:04:14 2005 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:04:14 -0800 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: <766F8D8C-5F36-11D9-A282-000D93B10E22@nantucket.net> Message-ID: Nahua language and culture discussion writes: >On Jan 5, 2005, at 10:47 AM, Archaeology Institute wrote: > >> During the course of my research I found diverse translations and >> interpretations of the term "tzompantli." For one, the term tends to >> be >> interpreted as "skull rack" in the most generic sense, whereas those >> who have had occasion to translate the term more literally identify >> its meaning with the translation of "skull banner" -- which appears to >> constitute a gloss of tzontecomatl (skull >> or gourd?) and pantli (banner). > > >'Banner' is pamitl. It is one of those nouns which drops its stem i >when the absolutive suffix -tl is absent, and when m comes into final >position, it delabializes to -n. This is why in possessed forms and >some compounds, one finds the form pan. There has been some >back-formation from this pan stem, so you might find pantli meaning >'banner.' > >However, the second element in tzompantli is a different word, namely >pantli, which means 'row' or 'wall.' > >The tzom- is the stem form of tzontli 'head of hair. In this case, the >final n of the stem assimilates in labialization to the following p of >pantli. > >There are plenty of representations of the tzompantli, so we know it >was a rack of skulls, not scalps. It appears that the tzom- in this >case stands for the compound tzontecomatl literally 'scalp pot,' which >is the Nahuatl word for skull. > >-- >This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus protection at CSUMB, visit: > >http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ > Dear Dr. Karttunen, Thank you for your prompt and authoratative response to my query regarding the etymology of the term "tzompantli." I had noted a reference to 'scalp pots" attributed to you in the Virginia Miller paper regarding tzompantli architecture. It is therefore appropriate that you would have been one of the first to respond to the query in question. Having been away for the past few days (at the Magic Kingdom in Anaheim...aka: Disneyland) I had not had an opportunity before now to thank you for your response. I will acknowledge your etymology of the term in my forthcoming paper. Please do have a great day! Best Regards, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. -- This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus protection at CSUMB, visit: http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ From macuil2 at MSN.COM Wed Jan 12 23:20:33 2005 From: macuil2 at MSN.COM (Raul macuil martinez) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:20:33 +0100 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Saludos... Yo soy de Tlaxcala y efectivamente mucha gente que lleva por ?ltimo apellido el de Tzompantzi, principalmente el municipio que se llama Santa Ana Chiauhtempan y en el poblado llamado Contla de Juan Cuamatzi. Pero mi pregunta es la siguiente: A que se refieren exactamente al decir : Wonder what these guys did for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin?. Podr?an ser un poco m?s especif?cos?. Miec tla?ocamati. >From: Archaeology Institute >Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >Subject: Re: Translation of Tzompantli >Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:46:50 -0800 > >"John B. Carlson" writes: > >Ruben, > > > >Here's one important paper you should know: > > > >Miller, Virginia E. > >1999 The Skull Rack in Mesoamerica. In Mesoamerican Architecture > >as a Cultural Symbol (Jeff Karl Kowalski, Editor):pp. 340-360. Oxford > >University Press, New York. > > > >I will be interested in replies concerning the etymology as well as > >nuances of meaning associated with the Tzompantli. In Tlaxcala, there > >are a number of people with the last named Tzompantzi. I would be > >sure the original name was Tzompantzin. Wonder what these guys did > >for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local > >municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin? > > > >John Carlson > >Dear John, > > Thank you for your prompt response...I was away at the Magical >Kingdom in Anaheim (aka: Disneyland) with my family and returned just a >couple of days ago. It has been some time since I last had contact with >you (Aztec exhibit at the Denver Museum >of Natural History), but wanted to let you know that I currently have a >manuscript under review regarding my recent archaeoastronomy (solar >geometry) studies of the California missions. At present, I have a dozen >sites with confirmed solstice and >equinox orientations...with attendant illuminations of tabernacle features >and the like. > > As for the tzompantli article, that is currently under review for >a volume on The Taking and Displaying of Human Trophies by Amerindians, and >the article by Virginia Miller proved a great point of departure, but >unlike the Miller paper, my analysis >centers on a cosmological and iconographic analysis of the architectural >feature in question. In my paper, I draw on the legend of the Hero Twins >as a basis for interpreting extant associations between tzompantli and >ballcourt features, and in >turn, on the cults of decapitation that co-occur with said features that >first appear in Gulf lowland contexts...or that point of departure >attributed to such groups as the Quiche (the authors of the Popol Vuh). >Beyond that, I await further >commentaries and reviews as to the paper, but Arthur Demarest (one of the >conference paper reviewers) was particularly interested in my results and >interpretations...so I am hoping for the best as per the current reviews. > >Best Regards, > > >Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director >Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization >Social and Behavioral Sciences >California State University Monterey Bay >100 Campus Center >Seaside, California 93955-8001 > >Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu >Voice: 831-582-3760 >Fax: 831-582-3566 >http://archaeology.csumb.edu >http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ > > > > > >Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message >is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for >the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the >intended recipient, you are >notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or >use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this >communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, >attaching the original message, and >delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which >your computer is connected. > >Thank you. > > >-- >This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous >attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening >attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus >protection at CSUMB, visit: > >http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ _________________________________________________________________ T1msn Search. Todo lo que buscas ahora m?s rapido http://search.t1msn.com.mx/ From Tlaloc at UMD.EDU Thu Jan 13 15:40:37 2005 From: Tlaloc at UMD.EDU (John B. Carlson) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:40:37 -0500 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:20 AM +0100 1/13/05, Raul macuil martinez wrote: >Saludos... > > Yo soy de Tlaxcala y efectivamente mucha gente que lleva por ?ltimo >apellido el de Tzompantzi, principalmente el municipio que se llama Santa >Ana Chiauhtempan y en el poblado llamado Contla de Juan Cuamatzi. Pero mi >pregunta es la siguiente: > >A que se refieren exactamente al decir : Wonder what these guys did >for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local >municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin?. > >Podr?an ser un poco m?s especif?cos?. > > Miec tla?ocamati. > Raul, and anyone else, I am sorry if this was misunderstood. This was simply my sense of humor kicking in. There have been local politicians named Tzompantzi running for office there in Tlaxcala, and having someone like the "Keeper of the Skullrack" as your local Alcalde or whatever might be a bit daunting. Monsieur le Guillotine? Heads will roll... But in some sense, I do have a serious question here. In pre-Hispanic times, if someone had the TITLE of Tzompantzin, what would have been his function? Would he have been the official or priest who was in charge of the tzompantli? There would be a lot to know about who constructed these things... maintained them... put the heads on them... etc. I was both wondering about some of those details AND asking about the origin of the name Tzompantzi. And yes, I agree, I have seen the family name around west and northwest side of the Malintzi in Tlaxcala. Any ideas about the etymology of this apellido? John -- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ John B. Carlson, Ph.D., Director The Center for Archaeoastronomy P. O. Box "X" College Park, MD 20741-3022 USA (301) 864-6637 office <== {fax by arrangement} http://www.archaeoastronomy.net PLEASE REMOVE: from your address book. THIS ADDRESS NOW DISCONTINUED. From cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jan 13 16:40:27 2005 From: cihuatl at EARTHLINK.NET (Joanna Sanchez) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:40:27 -0500 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli Message-ID: I have to say that I appreciate the light hearted spirit in which the comments made by Dr. Carlson were offered, and do not wish to take him or anyone else to task. But I would say that we sometimes risk losing our perspective and our credibility when we talk about elements of Mexican culture in such ways. I was frankly more surprised to read the following: I get a laugh everytime I drive by the city crematorium in Zacatecas. Somebody got the bright idea to put tzompantli in big letter across the front of the building. One of these days I may go in and tell the administrator, or then again, maybe I won't. I couldn't help thinking that this suggests several things- albeit unintentionally- that the administrator might be unaware of the meaning, that we can illuminate aspects of a culture for its oblivious members (or not...). I feel that any implication of exclusionism or exoticism, even in fun, affects how we are perceived, and detracts from our good intentions, which are born of a real respect and love we all share for the subject . Joanna Sanchez From dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX Thu Jan 13 17:08:07 2005 From: dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX (David Wright) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:08:07 -0600 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli Message-ID: >Any ideas about the etymology of this apellido? Estimad?simo John: In my Access database on the glosses and painted signs in the Huichapan Codex, I have a hill sign with a Huastec (?) (nose with big perforation) inside and a flag on top (f. 30r / p. 59). There's a clump of hair/400 grapheme next to it, but it's not clear if it's associated with the latter toponymic sign or the smoking dead lord bundle in a jaguar skin-covered seat which is adjacent to the toponym. The Otomi alphabetic text includes the word Ama'bex[te Ant'oho] (/ama'bexte ant'oho/), "lugar de banderas, el cerro" (reconstructed from an earlier appearance, in the text on the previous page). (In case that vowel doesn't survive the trip through cyberspace, it's the Latin o+e.) There's also a one-word gloss in Nahuatl: "?opantepec" (the first letter is a cedilla, in case it doesn't make it). Considering the Otomi scribe's imperfect command of Nahuatl in other glosses, I broke the Nahuatl gloss down three ways: ?opantepec (1) /zo:pa:nte:pec/ (2) /zo:pante:pec/ (3) /tzo:mpa:nte:pec/ (1) /zo:/ + (/pa:ntli/ - /tli/) + (te:petl/ - /tl/) + (/co/ - /o/) (2) /zo:/ + /pan/ + (/te:petl/ - /tl/) + (/co/ - /o/) (3) (/tzo:ntli/ - /tli/) (/n/ > /m/) + (/pa:n/ - /tli/) + (/te:petl/ - /tl/) + (/co/ - /o/) (1) verbo: "perforarse/sangrarse" ? sustantivo: "bandera/estandarte" ? sustantivo: "cerro" ? sufijo locativo: "dentro de/en/por/sobre" (2) verbo: "perforarse/sangrarse" ? posposici?n: "dentro de/durante/en/por/sobre" ? sustantivo: "cerro" ? sufijo locativo: "dentro de/en/por/sobre" (3) sustantivo: pelo ? sustantivo: "bandera" "estandarte" ? sustantivo: "cerro" ? sufijo locativo: "dentro de/en/por/sobre" (1) Zopantepec, "en el cerro de la bandera de la perforaci?n sangrante" (2) Zopantepec, "en el cerro del lugar de perforarse para sangrarse" (3) Tzompantepec, "en el cerro de la bandera de pelo" [tzompantli tambi?n significa "el color?n" y "el altar de cr?neos", por lo que tzompantepec podr?a traducirse tambi?n como "en el cerro de los colorines" y "en el cerro del altar de cr?neos"] (Color?n or zompantle is Erythrina americana [or E. coralloides] "coral tree" in English, with spectacular [and edible] red flowers at the ends of its branches and bright red [and poisonous] seeds in pods which some use in jewelry. The tree can be grown by planting a branch.) Any of the latter translations could relate to the painted sign, considering the use of cuasihomophonic morpheme switching in some of the graphic signs of early colonial period painted manuscripts of central Mexico. Toponyms in Otomi and Nahuatl usually (but not always) closely replicate each other semantically (calques), but the Otomi gloss relates one way or another to all three Nahuatl glosses. I hope this is useful; it's all that I have on the word tzompantli. If anybody sees any problems please let me know. Paz, David From dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX Thu Jan 13 17:21:42 2005 From: dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX (David Wright) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:21:42 -0600 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli Message-ID: P.S. (just for the record) I see the cedilla made it but the vowel didn't. It's an O fused with an E, representing a vowel midway between Spanish O and E (pronounced like an E but rounding the lips). There was a typo in the first form (straight transcription); I automatically transcribed the TT as a T' (' is a glottal occlusive). Here they are again, corrected and with the OE unfused: paleographic transcription: amabexte anttoehoe modernized phonetic transcription: /ama'bexte ant'oehoe/ Today the Otomi write that OE with an underlined O. From micc2 at COX.NET Thu Jan 13 17:52:42 2005 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:52:42 -0800 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hace 25 a?os yo y mi esposa estuvimos en Santa Ana Chautempan y compramos muchas cosas preciosas de lana, y algodon inlcuyendo sarapes, cobijas, sueteres y morales. Todavia hay mucha artesania alli? O le ha pasado lo que paso en Chiconcua, Estado de Mexico, adonde las atresanias tradicionales de tela se han reemplazado con t-shirts de fayuca de Guess, Budweisser, Levis, etc; discos CD pirata, etc? Raul macuil martinez wrote: > Saludos... > > Yo soy de Tlaxcala y efectivamente mucha gente que lleva por ?ltimo > apellido el de Tzompantzi, principalmente el municipio que se llama Santa > Ana Chiauhtempan y en el poblado llamado Contla de Juan Cuamatzi. Pero mi > pregunta es la siguiente: > > A que se refieren exactamente al decir : Wonder what these guys did > for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local > municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin?. > > Podr?an ser un poco m?s especif?cos?. > > Miec tla?ocamati. > > > > > >> From: Archaeology Institute >> Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >> To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >> Subject: Re: Translation of Tzompantli >> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:46:50 -0800 >> >> "John B. Carlson" writes: >> >Ruben, >> > >> >Here's one important paper you should know: >> > >> >Miller, Virginia E. >> >1999 The Skull Rack in Mesoamerica. In Mesoamerican Architecture >> >as a Cultural Symbol (Jeff Karl Kowalski, Editor):pp. 340-360. Oxford >> >University Press, New York. >> > >> >I will be interested in replies concerning the etymology as well as >> >nuances of meaning associated with the Tzompantli. In Tlaxcala, there >> >are a number of people with the last named Tzompantzi. I would be >> >sure the original name was Tzompantzin. Wonder what these guys did >> >for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local >> >municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin? >> > >> >John Carlson >> >> Dear John, >> >> Thank you for your prompt response...I was away at the Magical >> Kingdom in Anaheim (aka: Disneyland) with my family and returned just a >> couple of days ago. It has been some time since I last had contact with >> you (Aztec exhibit at the Denver Museum >> of Natural History), but wanted to let you know that I currently have a >> manuscript under review regarding my recent archaeoastronomy (solar >> geometry) studies of the California missions. At present, I have a >> dozen >> sites with confirmed solstice and >> equinox orientations...with attendant illuminations of tabernacle >> features >> and the like. >> >> As for the tzompantli article, that is currently under review >> for >> a volume on The Taking and Displaying of Human Trophies by >> Amerindians, and >> the article by Virginia Miller proved a great point of departure, but >> unlike the Miller paper, my analysis >> centers on a cosmological and iconographic analysis of the architectural >> feature in question. In my paper, I draw on the legend of the Hero >> Twins >> as a basis for interpreting extant associations between tzompantli and >> ballcourt features, and in >> turn, on the cults of decapitation that co-occur with said features that >> first appear in Gulf lowland contexts...or that point of departure >> attributed to such groups as the Quiche (the authors of the Popol Vuh). >> Beyond that, I await further >> commentaries and reviews as to the paper, but Arthur Demarest (one of >> the >> conference paper reviewers) was particularly interested in my results >> and >> interpretations...so I am hoping for the best as per the current >> reviews. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> >> Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director >> Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization >> Social and Behavioral Sciences >> California State University Monterey Bay >> 100 Campus Center >> Seaside, California 93955-8001 >> >> Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu >> Voice: 831-582-3760 >> Fax: 831-582-3566 >> http://archaeology.csumb.edu >> http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ >> >> >> >> >> >> Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail >> message >> is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended >> only for >> the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the >> intended recipient, you are >> notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic >> storage or >> use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this >> communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, >> attaching the original message, and >> delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which >> your computer is connected. >> >> Thank you. >> >> >> -- >> This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially >> dangerous >> attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening >> attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus >> protection at CSUMB, visit: >> >> http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ > > > _________________________________________________________________ > T1msn Search. Todo lo que buscas ahora m?s rapido > http://search.t1msn.com.mx/ > > From institute at CSUMB.EDU Thu Jan 13 18:08:59 2005 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:08:59 -0800 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nahua language and culture discussion writes: >At 12:20 AM +0100 1/13/05, Raul macuil martinez wrote: > >>Saludos... > >> > >> Yo soy de Tlaxcala y efectivamente mucha gente que lleva por ?ltimo > >>apellido el de Tzompantzi, principalmente el municipio que se llama Santa > >>Ana Chiauhtempan y en el poblado llamado Contla de Juan Cuamatzi. Pero mi > >>pregunta es la siguiente: > >> > >>A que se refieren exactamente al decir : Wonder what these guys did > >>for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local > >>municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin?. > >> > >>Podr?an ser un poco m?s especif?cos?. > >> > >> Miec tla?ocamati. > >> > > > >Raul, and anyone else, > > >I am sorry if this was misunderstood. This was > >simply my sense of humor kicking in. There have > >been local politicians named Tzompantzi running > >for office there in Tlaxcala, and having someone > >like the "Keeper of the Skullrack" as your local > >Alcalde or whatever might be a bit daunting. > >Monsieur le Guillotine? Heads will roll... > >But in some sense, I do have a serious question > >here. In pre-Hispanic times, if someone had the > >TITLE of Tzompantzin, what would have been his > >function? Would he have been the official or > >priest who was in charge of the tzompantli? There > >would be a lot to know about who constructed > >these things... maintained them... put the heads > >on them... etc. I was both wondering about some > >of those details AND asking about the origin of > >the name Tzompantzi. And yes, I agree, I have > >seen the family name around west and northwest > >side of the Malintzi in Tlaxcala. > > >Any ideas about the etymology of this apellido? > > >John > >-- > Dear Colleagues, In the aforementioned study of the tzompantli and its cosmological and iconographic associations (Mendoza 2004) which led to my original question on the etymology of the term "tzompantli", I found that the Mexica in fact maintained ritual specialists whose function it was to decapitate, flay, and skewer human heads on the Huey-tzompantli of Mexico Tenochtitlan. In addition, the association of the tonal or tonalli with scalps, and hair, and solar radiation or light, underlies the Mexica practice of retaining scalps or hair (atop the skewered "scalp pots") of those human skulls impaled on the Huey-tzompantli. The Huey-tzompantli was in effect an instrument for capturing, and thereby, offering, the tonalli of countless Ixiptla deity impersonators identified with such festivals as the Panquetzaliztli. In fact, during the course of my research, I found a very direct association between the Huey-tzompantli of Tenochtitlan and the "First Fruits" harvest festivals of the Panquetzaliztli, and the ritual reenactment of the sacrifice of some 400 or innumerable "Star-Men" (ala Nicholson, 1971) Ixiptla deity impersonators known as the Centzon Huitznahua. My argument is that the Huey-tzompantli was in effect identified with the First Fruits harvest, Mixcoatl and or Coyolxauqui in his or her guise as the Milky Way, and the efforts of the Mexica to capture the primordial essence, and those centripetal forces centered on the cosmological and supernatural Serpent Mountain today identified with the Huey teocalli or Templo Mayor. The Huey-tzompantli was in effect the Divine Gourd Tree whose associations with the underworld portal or "Chasm of Creation" (identified with ballcourts ) in turn links it to the Dark Road that bifurcates the Milky Way, and serves as the repository for the tzontecomatl scalp pots or Star Men or Warriors dispatched in the primordial battle between Huitzilopochtli, Coyolxauqui, and the Centzon Huitznahua star warriors of the First Creation. My argument is that the Gulf Lowland identification of the ballcourt and tzompantli with such groups as the Quiche and Huasteca serves as the archetype for the mythological construct in question. PS: Because my paper on this topic is currently under review by Arthur Demarest and others on the editorial panel for Rick Chacon and David Dye's forthcoming book (i.e., "The Divine Gourd Tree: Tzompantli Skull Racks, Decapitation Rituals, and Human Trophies in Ancient Mesoamerica. In The Taking and Displaying of Human Trophies by Amerindians, Edited by Richard Chacon and David Dye. New York: Plenum Press [Under Review]), I am not presently at liberty to circulate the paper in this venue. Best Regards, > Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. -- This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus protection at CSUMB, visit: http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ From macuil2 at MSN.COM Thu Jan 13 22:10:52 2005 From: macuil2 at MSN.COM (Raul macuil martinez) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:10:52 +0100 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: <003a01c4f992$96fcae20$de0540c8@dcwright> Message-ID: En Tlaxcala, existe un pueblo llamado San Salvador Tzompantepec, y en esta localidad efectivamente creen ?rboles de color?n. De ahi el nombre del lugar, adem?s de que este pueblo est? a las faldas del cerro que lleva el mismo nombre. >From: David Wright >Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >Subject: Re: Translation of Tzompantli >Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:08:07 -0600 > > >Any ideas about the etymology of this apellido? > >Estimad?simo John: > >In my Access database on the glosses and painted signs in the Huichapan >Codex, I have a hill sign with a Huastec (?) (nose with big perforation) >inside and a flag on top (f. 30r / p. 59). There's a clump of hair/400 >grapheme next to it, but it's not clear if it's associated with the latter >toponymic sign or the smoking dead lord bundle in a jaguar skin-covered >seat >which is adjacent to the toponym. The Otomi alphabetic text includes the >word Ama'bex[te Ant'oho] (/ama'bexte ant'oho/), "lugar de banderas, el >cerro" (reconstructed from an earlier appearance, in the text on the >previous page). (In case that vowel doesn't survive the trip through >cyberspace, it's the Latin o+e.) There's also a one-word gloss in Nahuatl: >"?opantepec" (the first letter is a cedilla, in case it doesn't make it). >Considering the Otomi scribe's imperfect command of Nahuatl in other >glosses, I broke the Nahuatl gloss down three ways: > >?opantepec > >(1) /zo:pa:nte:pec/ >(2) /zo:pante:pec/ >(3) /tzo:mpa:nte:pec/ > >(1) /zo:/ + (/pa:ntli/ - /tli/) + (te:petl/ - /tl/) + (/co/ - /o/) >(2) /zo:/ + /pan/ + (/te:petl/ - /tl/) + (/co/ - /o/) >(3) (/tzo:ntli/ - /tli/) (/n/ > /m/) + (/pa:n/ - /tli/) + (/te:petl/ - >/tl/) >+ (/co/ - /o/) > >(1) verbo: "perforarse/sangrarse" ? sustantivo: "bandera/estandarte" ? >sustantivo: "cerro" ? sufijo locativo: "dentro de/en/por/sobre" >(2) verbo: "perforarse/sangrarse" ? posposici?n: "dentro >de/durante/en/por/sobre" ? sustantivo: "cerro" ? sufijo locativo: "dentro >de/en/por/sobre" >(3) sustantivo: pelo ? sustantivo: "bandera" "estandarte" ? sustantivo: >"cerro" ? sufijo locativo: "dentro de/en/por/sobre" > >(1) Zopantepec, "en el cerro de la bandera de la perforaci?n sangrante" >(2) Zopantepec, "en el cerro del lugar de perforarse para sangrarse" >(3) Tzompantepec, "en el cerro de la bandera de pelo" [tzompantli tambi?n >significa "el color?n" y "el altar de cr?neos", por lo que tzompantepec >podr?a traducirse tambi?n como "en el cerro de los colorines" y "en el >cerro >del altar de cr?neos"] > >(Color?n or zompantle is Erythrina americana [or E. coralloides] "coral >tree" in English, with spectacular [and edible] red flowers at the ends of >its branches and bright red [and poisonous] seeds in pods which some use in >jewelry. The tree can be grown by planting a branch.) > >Any of the latter translations could relate to the painted sign, >considering >the use of cuasihomophonic morpheme switching in some of the graphic signs >of early colonial period painted manuscripts of central Mexico. Toponyms in >Otomi and Nahuatl usually (but not always) closely replicate each other >semantically (calques), but the Otomi gloss relates one way or another to >all three Nahuatl glosses. > >I hope this is useful; it's all that I have on the word tzompantli. If >anybody sees any problems please let me know. > >Paz, > >David _________________________________________________________________ T1msn Search. Todo lo que buscas ahora m?s rapido http://search.t1msn.com.mx/ From macuil2 at MSN.COM Thu Jan 13 22:18:03 2005 From: macuil2 at MSN.COM (Raul macuil martinez) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:18:03 +0100 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: <41E6B56A.3010807@cox.net> Message-ID: Afortunadamente en el caso de Tlaxcala es muy particular, porque la poblaci?n tadav?a tiene mucho arraigo a sus creencias y por supuesto a sus artesan?as. En Santa Ana Chiauhtempan todav?a existen muchos productos elaborados con lana, aunque no se escapa de la introducci?n de "nuevos" productos, pero la artesan?a en lana, es el motor principal de la econ?mia de Santa Ana. > >Hace 25 a?os yo y mi esposa estuvimos en Santa Ana Chautempan y >compramos muchas cosas preciosas de lana, y algodon >inlcuyendo sarapes, cobijas, sueteres y morales. > >Todavia hay mucha artesania alli? O le ha pasado lo que paso en >Chiconcua, Estado de Mexico, adonde las atresanias tradicionales de >tela se han reemplazado con t-shirts de fayuca de Guess, Budweisser, >Levis, etc; discos CD pirata, etc? > > > >Raul macuil martinez wrote: > >>Saludos... >> >> Yo soy de Tlaxcala y efectivamente mucha gente que lleva por ?ltimo >>apellido el de Tzompantzi, principalmente el municipio que se llama Santa >>Ana Chiauhtempan y en el poblado llamado Contla de Juan Cuamatzi. Pero mi >>pregunta es la siguiente: >> >>A que se refieren exactamente al decir : Wonder what these guys did >>for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local >>municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin?. >> >>Podr?an ser un poco m?s especif?cos?. >> >> Miec tla?ocamati. >> >> >> >> >> >>>From: Archaeology Institute >>>Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >>>To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >>>Subject: Re: Translation of Tzompantli >>>Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:46:50 -0800 >>> >>>"John B. Carlson" writes: >>> >Ruben, >>> > >>> >Here's one important paper you should know: >>> > >>> >Miller, Virginia E. >>> >1999 The Skull Rack in Mesoamerica. In Mesoamerican Architecture >>> >as a Cultural Symbol (Jeff Karl Kowalski, Editor):pp. 340-360. Oxford >>> >University Press, New York. >>> > >>> >I will be interested in replies concerning the etymology as well as >>> >nuances of meaning associated with the Tzompantli. In Tlaxcala, there >>> >are a number of people with the last named Tzompantzi. I would be >>> >sure the original name was Tzompantzin. Wonder what these guys did >>> >for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local >>> >municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin? >>> > >>> >John Carlson >>> >>>Dear John, >>> >>> Thank you for your prompt response...I was away at the Magical >>>Kingdom in Anaheim (aka: Disneyland) with my family and returned just a >>>couple of days ago. It has been some time since I last had contact with >>>you (Aztec exhibit at the Denver Museum >>>of Natural History), but wanted to let you know that I currently have a >>>manuscript under review regarding my recent archaeoastronomy (solar >>>geometry) studies of the California missions. At present, I have a >>>dozen >>>sites with confirmed solstice and >>>equinox orientations...with attendant illuminations of tabernacle >>>features >>>and the like. >>> >>> As for the tzompantli article, that is currently under review >>>for >>>a volume on The Taking and Displaying of Human Trophies by >>>Amerindians, and >>>the article by Virginia Miller proved a great point of departure, but >>>unlike the Miller paper, my analysis >>>centers on a cosmological and iconographic analysis of the architectural >>>feature in question. In my paper, I draw on the legend of the Hero >>>Twins >>>as a basis for interpreting extant associations between tzompantli and >>>ballcourt features, and in >>>turn, on the cults of decapitation that co-occur with said features that >>>first appear in Gulf lowland contexts...or that point of departure >>>attributed to such groups as the Quiche (the authors of the Popol Vuh). >>>Beyond that, I await further >>>commentaries and reviews as to the paper, but Arthur Demarest (one of >>>the >>>conference paper reviewers) was particularly interested in my results >>>and >>>interpretations...so I am hoping for the best as per the current >>>reviews. >>> >>>Best Regards, >>> >>> >>>Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director >>>Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization >>>Social and Behavioral Sciences >>>California State University Monterey Bay >>>100 Campus Center >>>Seaside, California 93955-8001 >>> >>>Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu >>>Voice: 831-582-3760 >>>Fax: 831-582-3566 >>>http://archaeology.csumb.edu >>>http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail >>>message >>>is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended >>>only for >>>the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the >>>intended recipient, you are >>>notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic >>>storage or >>>use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this >>>communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, >>>attaching the original message, and >>>delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which >>>your computer is connected. >>> >>>Thank you. >>> >>> >>>-- >>>This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially >>>dangerous >>>attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening >>>attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus >>>protection at CSUMB, visit: >>> >>>http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ >> >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>T1msn Search. Todo lo que buscas ahora m?s rapido >>http://search.t1msn.com.mx/ >> >> _________________________________________________________________ T1msn Search. Todo lo que buscas ahora m?s rapido http://search.t1msn.com.mx/ From idiez at MAC.COM Thu Jan 13 22:22:52 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:22:52 -0600 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: <001201c4f98e$97bdb100$8ea05b40@JS> Message-ID: Joanna, I am Mexican, and in the course of my work as a teacher in Zacatecas, I constantly joke with my students (both mestizo and indigenous) about the racism that permeates Mexican society as well as the general lack of understanding and misuse of indigenous culture. I guess you could say it's one of my teaching strategies. Although it wasn't my intention, it sounds like I offended you when I wrote, "I get a laugh everytime I drive by the city crematorium in Zacatecas. Somebody got the bright idea to put tzompantli in big letter across the front of the building. One of these days I may go in and tell the administrator, or then again, maybe I won't." I would appreciate it if you could explain what you mean by "exclusionism" and "exoticism". John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On Jan 13, 2005, at 10:40 AM, Joanna Sanchez wrote: > I have to say that I appreciate the light hearted spirit in which the > comments made by Dr. Carlson were offered, and do not wish to take him > or > anyone else to task. But I would say that we sometimes risk losing our > perspective and our credibility when we talk about elements of Mexican > culture in such ways. I was frankly more surprised to read the > following: > I get a laugh everytime I drive by the city crematorium in Zacatecas. > Somebody got the bright idea to put tzompantli in big letter across > the front of the building. One of these days I may go in and tell the > administrator, or then again, maybe I won't. > > I couldn't help thinking that this suggests several things- albeit > unintentionally- that the administrator might be unaware of the > meaning, > that we can illuminate aspects of a culture for its oblivious members > (or > not...). > I feel that any implication of exclusionism or exoticism, even in > fun, > affects how we are perceived, and detracts from our good intentions, > which > are born of a real respect and love we all share for the subject . > Joanna Sanchez > From micc2 at COX.NET Fri Jan 14 22:59:23 2005 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:59:23 -0800 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: me da muchisimo gusto saber esto!!! Dios quiere que tengamos la oportunidad de visitar Tlaxcallan una vez mas!!! gracias por la inforaci?n! atenamente, mario e. aguilar www.mexicayotl.org Raul macuil martinez wrote: > Afortunadamente en el caso de Tlaxcala es muy particular, porque la > poblaci?n tadav?a tiene mucho arraigo a sus creencias y por supuesto a > sus > artesan?as. > En Santa Ana Chiauhtempan todav?a existen muchos productos elaborados > con > lana, aunque no se escapa de la introducci?n de "nuevos" productos, > pero la > artesan?a en lana, es el motor principal de la econ?mia de Santa Ana. > > >> >> Hace 25 a?os yo y mi esposa estuvimos en Santa Ana Chautempan y >> compramos muchas cosas preciosas de lana, y algodon >> inlcuyendo sarapes, cobijas, sueteres y morales. >> >> Todavia hay mucha artesania alli? O le ha pasado lo que paso en >> Chiconcua, Estado de Mexico, adonde las atresanias tradicionales de >> tela se han reemplazado con t-shirts de fayuca de Guess, Budweisser, >> Levis, etc; discos CD pirata, etc? >> >> >> >> Raul macuil martinez wrote: >> >>> Saludos... >>> >>> Yo soy de Tlaxcala y efectivamente mucha gente que lleva por ?ltimo >>> apellido el de Tzompantzi, principalmente el municipio que se llama >>> Santa >>> Ana Chiauhtempan y en el poblado llamado Contla de Juan Cuamatzi. >>> Pero mi >>> pregunta es la siguiente: >>> >>> A que se refieren exactamente al decir : Wonder what these guys did >>> for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local >>> municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin?. >>> >>> Podr?an ser un poco m?s especif?cos?. >>> >>> Miec tla?ocamati. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: Archaeology Institute >>>> Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >>>> >>>> To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: Translation of Tzompantli >>>> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:46:50 -0800 >>>> >>>> "John B. Carlson" writes: >>>> >Ruben, >>>> > >>>> >Here's one important paper you should know: >>>> > >>>> >Miller, Virginia E. >>>> >1999 The Skull Rack in Mesoamerica. In Mesoamerican Architecture >>>> >as a Cultural Symbol (Jeff Karl Kowalski, Editor):pp. 340-360. Oxford >>>> >University Press, New York. >>>> > >>>> >I will be interested in replies concerning the etymology as well as >>>> >nuances of meaning associated with the Tzompantli. In Tlaxcala, there >>>> >are a number of people with the last named Tzompantzi. I would be >>>> >sure the original name was Tzompantzin. Wonder what these guys did >>>> >for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local >>>> >municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin? >>>> > >>>> >John Carlson >>>> >>>> Dear John, >>>> >>>> Thank you for your prompt response...I was away at the Magical >>>> Kingdom in Anaheim (aka: Disneyland) with my family and returned >>>> just a >>>> couple of days ago. It has been some time since I last had contact >>>> with >>>> you (Aztec exhibit at the Denver Museum >>>> of Natural History), but wanted to let you know that I currently >>>> have a >>>> manuscript under review regarding my recent archaeoastronomy (solar >>>> geometry) studies of the California missions. At present, I have a >>>> dozen >>>> sites with confirmed solstice and >>>> equinox orientations...with attendant illuminations of tabernacle >>>> features >>>> and the like. >>>> >>>> As for the tzompantli article, that is currently under review >>>> for >>>> a volume on The Taking and Displaying of Human Trophies by >>>> Amerindians, and >>>> the article by Virginia Miller proved a great point of departure, but >>>> unlike the Miller paper, my analysis >>>> centers on a cosmological and iconographic analysis of the >>>> architectural >>>> feature in question. In my paper, I draw on the legend of the Hero >>>> Twins >>>> as a basis for interpreting extant associations between tzompantli and >>>> ballcourt features, and in >>>> turn, on the cults of decapitation that co-occur with said features >>>> that >>>> first appear in Gulf lowland contexts...or that point of departure >>>> attributed to such groups as the Quiche (the authors of the Popol >>>> Vuh). >>>> Beyond that, I await further >>>> commentaries and reviews as to the paper, but Arthur Demarest (one of >>>> the >>>> conference paper reviewers) was particularly interested in my results >>>> and >>>> interpretations...so I am hoping for the best as per the current >>>> reviews. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director >>>> Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization >>>> Social and Behavioral Sciences >>>> California State University Monterey Bay >>>> 100 Campus Center >>>> Seaside, California 93955-8001 >>>> >>>> Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu >>>> Voice: 831-582-3760 >>>> Fax: 831-582-3566 >>>> http://archaeology.csumb.edu >>>> http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail >>>> message >>>> is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended >>>> only for >>>> the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the >>>> intended recipient, you are >>>> notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic >>>> storage or >>>> use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this >>>> communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by >>>> e-mail, >>>> attaching the original message, and >>>> delete the original message from your computer, and any network to >>>> which >>>> your computer is connected. >>>> >>>> Thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially >>>> dangerous >>>> attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening >>>> attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus >>>> protection at CSUMB, visit: >>>> >>>> http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> T1msn Search. Todo lo que buscas ahora m?s rapido >>> http://search.t1msn.com.mx/ >>> >>> > > _________________________________________________________________ > T1msn Search. Todo lo que buscas ahora m?s rapido > http://search.t1msn.com.mx/ > > From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Wed Jan 19 00:56:55 2005 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 00:56:55 +0000 Subject: CGI models of Aztec stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Someone wanted info rmation about CGI models of Aztec stuff. See http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1885786 From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jan 21 08:10:58 2005 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 03:10:58 -0500 Subject: Translation of Tzompantli (gourd tree) Message-ID: I wonder if someone can help me with names of books or articles relating to Los Dias de los Muertos and how it came to be okay with Catholics to observe the festival around the time of All Saints/All Souls, even though the altares with skulls might have reminded them of tzompantli and the festival is also around the same time of year as the Jewish Sukkot/Tabernacles, which involves building small booths of foliage, often decorated with fruit and often looking like altares without the skulls. In the triptych I?m studying (El Jard?n de las Delicias/The Garden of Earthly Delights, which I would rather call La Bariedad del Mundo following an older inventory), which I think is all about Tabernacles, there seem to be images connected with tzompantli (skull and pantli) and also translating the book of Jonah (Jonah 4:6-11). The picture of a gourd tree seems to be part of both discussions. There?s nothing like a ?gourd tree? in the Latin Vulgate only because Saint Jerome didn't want to include a plant name that people wouldn't recognize. I think the reason it?s a monstrous image in The Garden of Earthly Delights/El Jard?n de las Delicias/La Bariedad del Mundo, and it?s white, is that Martin Luther had published a commentary on the book of Jonah in 1526, Der Prophet Jona ausgelegt, where he arbitrarily suggested vitis alba (a white vine) or Wilder?ben (some kind of wild radish or beet). In the 1534 Luther Bible it was a K?rbis (gourd) and then at some point in later editions it became a Staude (shrub or bush). I suppose it wasn't so much that making it a white vine was heretical, but more that overall Luther?s commentary on Jonah was extremely heretical. (This might solve my problem of how to persuade art historians who don't want to read Nahuatl hieroglyphics that the drawing is post-Luther, since even though in the drawing the gourd tree isn't white, pre-Luther there doesn't seem to be a reason for it to be a monstrosity.) I think another of the several sources of the bizarre-looking image is a description by Peter Martyr in one of the Decades of a tree-house he said the Indians called the domus aurea/casa de oro, a way of saying the local cacique was like Nero. Peter Martyr was also always making a note of when an Indian temple had a stairway leading up to the top, something prohibited in the Bible, and I think that is why the Tree-man has a ladder. The painting makes the confusion look like a horrible mess, but it?s interesting that at some point the Church apparently decided it was all okay and altares and ofrendas could continue. On the other Cort?s et al. were certainly horrified by the tzompantli when they saw all the skulls. So I wonder if all these pieces fit together. It looks as though at least at one point (around 1528) the discussion of the word tzompantli and the variant Bible translations were familiar to some of the same people, who had also heard all about the tzompantli in Tenochtitl?n. Or maybe it?s just because Jewish translators were involved in both discussions that the painting seems to equate the issues of evaluating what Indians were doing and identifying Biblical plants. I?ve copied part of the St. Jerome-St. Augustine correspondence below. I don't know how often translations of Nahuatl words might have been affected by topics in Bible translation. Susan Gilchrist (excerpt) From Bible Research Internet Resources for Students of Scripture, .bible- researcher.com, Contents copyright ? 2001-2005 by Michael D. Marlowe. ?Correspondence of Augustine and Jerome concerning the Latin Translation of the Bible. An interesting episode in the history of Bible translation was the exchange of letters between Augustine (Bishop of Hippo) and Jerome, concerning Jerome's new Latin translation of the Old Testament. Up to that time all Latin versions had been based upon the Greek version (called the translation of "the Seventy" or the Septuagint). But Augustine had learned that Jerome was now making a translation from the Hebrew, which differed in many places from the Septuagint. (Jerome had previously translated from the Septuagint, but after 390 he began to translate direct from the Hebrew. See the history of Jerome's work in the article by S. Angus on this site). Augustine calls upon Jerome to justify this departure from the customary text, tells of a disturbance which has arisen on this account, and urges him to reconsider. Jerome replies with characteristic vigor. The English translations below are excerpted from the Letters of Augustine (No. 28, 71, 82) and the Letters of Jerome (No. 112) in A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, Translated into English with Prolegomena and Explanatory Notes under the Editorial Supervision of Henry Wace and Philip Schaff. (Oxford: Parker; New York: Christian Literature Co., 1890-1900).?---- Jerome to Augustine. Written A.D. 404.---- ... You tell me that I have given a wrong translation of some word in Jonah, and that a worthy bishop narrowly escaped losing his charge through the clamorous tumult of his people, which was caused by the different rendering of this one word. At the same time, you withhold from me what the word was which I have mistranslated; thus taking away the possibility of my saying anything in my own vindication, lest my reply should be fatal to your objection. Perhaps it is the old dispute about the gourd which has been revived, after slumbering for many long years since the illustrious man, who in that day combined in his own person the ancestral honours of the Cornelii and of Asinius Pollio, brought against me the charge of giving in my translation the word "ivy" instead of "gourd." I have already given a sufficient answer to this in my commentary on Jonah. At present, I deem it enough to say that in that passage, where the Septuagint has "gourd," and Aquila and the others have rendered the word "ivy" (kissos), the Hebrew MS. has "ciceion," which is in the Syriac tongue, as now spoken, "ciceia." It is a kind of shrub having large leaves like a vine, and when planted it quickly springs up to the size of a small tree, standing upright by its own stem, without requiring any support of canes or poles, as both gourds and ivy do. If, therefore, in translating word for word, I had put the word "ciceia," no one would know what it meant; if I had used the word "gourd," I would have said what is not found in the Hebrew. I therefore put down "ivy," that I might not differ from all other translators. But if your Jews said, either through malice or ignorance, as you yourself suggest, that the word is in the Hebrew text which is found in the Greek and Latin versions, it is evident that they were either unacquainted with Hebrew, or have been pleased to say what was not true, in order to make sport of the gourd-planters.// In closing this letter, I beseech you to have some consideration for a soldier who is now old and has long retired from active service, and not to force him to take the field and again expose his life to the chances of war. Do you, who are young, and who have been appointed to the conspicuous seat of pontifical dignity, give yourself to teaching the people, and enrich Rome with new stores from fertile Africa. I am contented to make but little noise in an obscure corner of a monastery, with one to hear me or read to me.---- Augustine to Jerome. Written A.D. 405---- ... I beg of you ... to send us your translation of the Septuagint, which I did not know that you had published ... in order that we may be delivered, so far as is possible, from the consequences of the notable incompetency of those who, whether qualified or not, have attempted a Latin translation; and in order that those who think that I look with jealousy on your useful labours, may at length, if it be possible, perceive that my only reason for objecting to the public reading of your translation from the Hebrew in our churches was, lest, bringing forward anything which was, as it were, new and opposed to the authority of the Septuagint version, we should trouble by serious cause of offense the flocks of Christ, whose ears and hearts have become accustomed to listen to that version to which the seal of approbation was given by the apostles themselves. Wherefore, as to that shrub in the book of Jonah, if in the Hebrew it is neither "gourd" nor "ivy," but something else which stands erect, supported by its own stem without other props, I would prefer to call it "gourd" as in all our Latin versions; for I do not think that the Seventy would have rendered it thus at random, had they not known that the plant was something like a gourd ... Original Message: ----------------- From: Archaeology Institute institute at CSUMB.EDU Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:08:59 -0800 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Translation of Tzompantli Nahua language and culture discussion writes: >At 12:20 AM +0100 1/13/05, Raul macuil martinez wrote: > >>Saludos... > >> > >> Yo soy de Tlaxcala y efectivamente mucha gente que lleva por ?ltimo > >>apellido el de Tzompantzi, principalmente el municipio que se llama Santa > >>Ana Chiauhtempan y en el poblado llamado Contla de Juan Cuamatzi. Pero mi > >>pregunta es la siguiente: > >> > >>A que se refieren exactamente al decir : Wonder what these guys did > >>for a living... One man in Tlaxcala was running for a local > >>municipal election. Would you vote for a Tzompantzin?. > >> > >>Podr?an ser un poco m?s especif?cos?. > >> > >> Miec tla?ocamati. > >> > > > >Raul, and anyone else, > > >I am sorry if this was misunderstood. This was > >simply my sense of humor kicking in. There have > >been local politicians named Tzompantzi running > >for office there in Tlaxcala, and having someone > >like the "Keeper of the Skullrack" as your local > >Alcalde or whatever might be a bit daunting. > >Monsieur le Guillotine? Heads will roll... > >But in some sense, I do have a serious question > >here. In pre-Hispanic times, if someone had the > >TITLE of Tzompantzin, what would have been his > >function? Would he have been the official or > >priest who was in charge of the tzompantli? There > >would be a lot to know about who constructed > >these things... maintained them... put the heads > >on them... etc. I was both wondering about some > >of those details AND asking about the origin of > >the name Tzompantzi. And yes, I agree, I have > >seen the family name around west and northwest > >side of the Malintzi in Tlaxcala. > > >Any ideas about the etymology of this apellido? > > >John > >-- > Dear Colleagues, In the aforementioned study of the tzompantli and its cosmological and iconographic associations (Mendoza 2004) which led to my original question on the etymology of the term "tzompantli", I found that the Mexica in fact maintained ritual specialists whose function it was to decapitate, flay, and skewer human heads on the Huey-tzompantli of Mexico Tenochtitlan. In addition, the association of the tonal or tonalli with scalps, and hair, and solar radiation or light, underlies the Mexica practice of retaining scalps or hair (atop the skewered "scalp pots") of those human skulls impaled on the Huey-tzompantli. The Huey-tzompantli was in effect an instrument for capturing, and thereby, offering, the tonalli of countless Ixiptla deity impersonators identified with such festivals as the Panquetzaliztli. In fact, during the course of my research, I found a very direct association between the Huey- tzompantli of Tenochtitlan and the "First Fruits" harvest festivals of the Panquetzaliztli, and the ritual reenactment of the sacrifice of some 400 or innumerable "Star-Men" (ala Nicholson, 1971) Ixiptla deity impersonators known as the Centzon Huitznahua. My argument is that the Huey-tzompantli was in effect identified with the First Fruits harvest, Mixcoatl and or Coyolxauqui in his or her guise as the Milky Way, and the efforts of the Mexica to capture the primordial essence, and those centripetal forces centered on the cosmological and supernatural Serpent Mountain today identified with the Huey teocalli or Templo Mayor. The Huey- tzompantli was in effect the Divine Gourd Tree whose associations with the underworld portal or "Chasm of Creation" (identified with ballcourts ) in turn links it to the Dark Road that bifurcates the Milky Way, and serves as the repository for the tzontecomatl scalp pots or Star Men or Warriors dispatched in the primordial battle between Huitzilopochtli, Coyolxauqui, and the Centzon Huitznahua star warriors of the First Creation. My argument is that the Gulf Lowland identification of the ballcourt and tzompantli with such groups as the Quiche and Huasteca serves as the archetype for the mythological construct in question. PS: Because my paper on this topic is currently under review by Arthur Demarest and others on the editorial panel for Rick Chacon and David Dye's forthcoming book (i.e., "The Divine Gourd Tree: Tzompantli Skull Racks, Decapitation Rituals, and Human Trophies in Ancient Mesoamerica. In The Taking and Displaying of Human Trophies by Amerindians, Edited by Richard Chacon and David Dye. New York: Plenum Press [Under Review]), I am not presently at liberty to circulate the paper in this venue. Best Regards, > Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760 Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender- privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, attaching the original message, and delete the original message from your computer, and any network to which your computer is connected. Thank you. -- This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus protection at CSUMB, visit: http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Sun Jan 30 08:02:20 2005 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:02:20 +0000 Subject: CGI images of Aztecl stuff In-Reply-To: <290440-22005152181058209@M2W064.mail2web.com> Message-ID: In August 2004 someone on this group wanted CGI (= Computer Generated Imaging) images of Aztec buildings that were in Tenochtitlan. I passed that query onto http://www.renderosity.com , and I got these answers:- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1. Aztec stuff anywhere? by Anthony Appleyard on 8/13/04 01:03 Someone on an email group that I am in, is wanting images of buildings in Tenochtitlan. Tenochtitlan is an Aztec city that used to be where the center of Mexico City is now. The emperor Montezuma (correctly Mot?ucz?mah) ruled there. Does anyone know where there are CGI models of Aztec buildings (and weapons etc)? Realistic, not fantasy or sexy, please. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 2. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by MachineClaw on 8/13/04 01:12 runtimedna.com all your aztec needs ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 3. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by Anthony Appleyard on 8/13/04 01:38 Attached Link: http://www.runtimedna.com/search.ez I have just searched at this link. "tenochtitlan" found nothing. "aztec" found a few garments etc but no buildings. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 4. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by MachineClaw on 8/13/04 01:57 go to store link, then search by catagory link, then architecture and scroll through. Here are a few items: http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=EV%2D039&ParentID=61026 The New World Vol. 1 - Pre-Columbian http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=TP%2D070&ParentID=73450 The New World Vol. 2 - Pre-Columbian http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=TP%2D079&ParentID=77042 Amara - Aztec Princess for V3 http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=SM%2D004&ParentID=79747 bunch of outfits in the aztec style there, ya just have to shop around. the new world vol 1 and vol 2 are probably closest to what your looking for. there are also vine packs and forest overgrowth packs that work very well on all the sets runtime has, as well as desolation (dark burned out textures) sets for various sets too. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 5. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by xantor on 8/13/04 02:32 Attached Link: http://www.3dcafe.com/asp/architex.asp There is a free aztec city at 3dcafe at the landmarks part. It is called az_city.zip. 3ds format ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 6. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by Little_Dragon on 8/13/04 03:39 keihan has a primitive-weapon set for sale at PoserPros, which includes an Aztec sword, spear, and dagger. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 7. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by jade_nyc on 8/16/04 11:55 Attached Link: http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=EV%2DRD071&ParentID=75755 The Aztec hair in Real Deals is pretty cool and a steal at $2.50 ;) http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=EV%2DRD071&ParentID=75755 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 8. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by muralist on 1/18/05 17:38 http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=34376 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 9. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by xoconostle on 1/29/05 22:11 Attached Link: http://tinyurl.com/33okt The Freak Primitve set at DAZ includes an atlatl. If anyone would like to see some of the RDNA Aztec buildings and clothing in a render, you may click the link to see an image I made using them a few months ago. [That image is directly at http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=709469 ) [DAZ is at http://www.daz3d.com/ ) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From indus56 at TELUSPLANET.NET Sun Jan 30 20:46:37 2005 From: indus56 at TELUSPLANET.NET (WP Anderson) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:46:37 -0700 Subject: CGI images of Aztecl stuff In-Reply-To: <20050130080220.2958.qmail@web86708.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Anthony Appleyard, Though other people may have requested something like this as well, I am indeed the author of a query regarding sources for such material. Thanks so much for pursuing this. Best, Paul Anderson ***************************************************** Paul Anderson, Hunger's Brides. http://www.hungersbrides.com Based on the life of Sor Juana In?s de la Cruz in 17th-century Mexico. Published by: Random House (Canada), Carroll & Graf (US), Rubikon (Serbia), Constable & Robinson (UK), Pendo Verlag (Germany). ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: >In August 2004 someone on this group wanted CGI (= Computer Generated >Imaging) images of Aztec buildings that were in Tenochtitlan. I passed >that query onto http://www.renderosity.com , and I got these answers:- >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >1. Aztec stuff anywhere? by Anthony Appleyard on 8/13/04 01:03 > >Someone on an email group that I am in, is wanting images of buildings >in Tenochtitlan. Tenochtitlan is an Aztec city that used to be where >the center of Mexico City is now. The emperor Montezuma (correctly >Mot?ucz?mah) ruled there. Does anyone know where there are CGI models >of Aztec buildings (and weapons etc)? Realistic, not fantasy or sexy, >please. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >2. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by MachineClaw on 8/13/04 01:12 > >runtimedna.com >all your aztec needs >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >3. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by Anthony Appleyard on 8/13/04 01:38 > >Attached Link: http://www.runtimedna.com/search.ez > >I have just searched at this link. "tenochtitlan" found nothing. >"aztec" found a few garments etc but no buildings. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >4. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by MachineClaw on 8/13/04 01:57 > >go to store link, then search by catagory link, then architecture and >scroll through. Here are a few items: > >http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=EV%2D039&ParentID=61026 > >The New World Vol. 1 - Pre-Columbian >http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=TP%2D070&ParentID=73450 > >The New World Vol. 2 - Pre-Columbian >http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=TP%2D079&ParentID=77042 > >Amara - Aztec Princess for V3 >http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=SM%2D004&ParentID=79747 > >bunch of outfits in the aztec style there, ya just have to shop around. > >the new world vol 1 and vol 2 are probably closest to what your looking >for. there are also vine packs and forest overgrowth packs that work >very well on all the sets runtime has, as well as desolation (dark >burned out textures) sets for various sets too. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >5. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by xantor on 8/13/04 02:32 > >Attached Link: http://www.3dcafe.com/asp/architex.asp > >There is a free aztec city at 3dcafe at the landmarks part. >It is called az_city.zip. 3ds format >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >6. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by Little_Dragon on 8/13/04 03:39 > >keihan has a primitive-weapon set for sale at PoserPros, which includes >an Aztec sword, spear, and dagger. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >7. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by jade_nyc on 8/16/04 11:55 > >Attached Link: >http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=EV%2DRD071&ParentID=75755 > >The Aztec hair in Real Deals is pretty cool and a steal at $2.50 ;) > >http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?ShowProduct=EV%2DRD071&ParentID=75755 > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >8. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by muralist on 1/18/05 17:38 > >http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=34376 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >9. Re: Aztec stuff anywhere? by xoconostle on 1/29/05 22:11 > >Attached Link: http://tinyurl.com/33okt > >The Freak Primitve set at DAZ includes an atlatl. If anyone would like >to see some of the RDNA Aztec buildings and clothing in a render, you >may click the link to see an image I made using them a few months ago. >[That image is directly at >http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=709469 ) > >[DAZ is at http://www.daz3d.com/ ) > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > -- ***************************************************** Paul Anderson, Hunger's Brides. http://www.hungersbrides.com Based on the life of Sor Juana In?s de la Cruz in 17th-century Mexico. Published by: Random House (Canada), Carroll & Graf (US), Rubikon (Serbia), Constable & Robinson (UK), Pendo Verlag (Germany). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU Mon Jan 31 23:01:05 2005 From: RCRAPO at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:01:05 -0700 Subject: A Question for Experts Here Message-ID: I'm in the process of publishing an English translation of AN?NIMO MEXICANO and want to include a few illustrations from other early codices, including for instance, Codice Xolotl (which was published as a facsimile edition by UNAM in cooperation with the University of Utah Press back in the 1950s. Here's my question, when the original source is a Nahuatl manuscript such as Xolotl or Anonymo where the original is housed in a library, does the library typically assert control of all copyright authority so that they are the entity that must grant permission or is the several hundred years age of such a document place it into public domain? Richley From idiez at MAC.COM Mon Jan 31 23:58:14 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:58:14 -0600 Subject: Summer 2005 Nahuatl program in Zacatecas and Tepecxitla Message-ID: Tohuampoyohuan, The Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology and the Language Center of the Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas are happy to announce the Summer 2005 Intensive course in Older and Modern Nahuatl for non-native speakers (June 20 to July 29). An English syllabus follows, and .pdf versions of both this and the Spanish version are available at our website: www.idiez.org.mx, or if the university server is down, homepage.mac.com/idiez/idiezweb. The Zacatecas Institute for Teaching and Research in Ethnology and the Language Center of the Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Intensive course in Older and Modern Nahuatl for non-native speakers Summer 2005 (June 20 to July 29) Instructors: John Sullivan, Ph.D., Lic. Delfina de la Cruz, and indigenous teaching assistants. General objectives 1. Develop students' oral comprehension, speaking, reading, writing, knowledge of language structure, as well as their cultural wisdom and sensibility, in order to facilitate their ability to communicate effectively, correctly and creatively in everyday situations. 2. Provide students with instruments and experiences which demonstrate the continuity between past and present Nahua culture, through the study of colonial and modern texts, conversation with native speakers, and a residency in a Nahua community. 3. Penetrate into the historical, economic, political, social and cultural aspects of Nahua civilization. 4. Prepare non-native speaking students to take university level humanities courses taught in Nahuatl alongside native speakers. 5. Prepare advanced students to work on individual and collective research projects in the Nahuatl language. Registration requirements: 1. Copy of birth certificate or CURP for Mexicans. Copy of passport for foreigners (student visa is not necessary). 2. two credential-size photographs Academic credit: Academic credit for 140 hours is issued in the form of an official transcript through the Language Center of the Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas. Testing: 1. Beginning students' progress will be evaluated in three categories: 40%, three tests on Older Nahuatl (grammar and translation). 40%, three tests on Modern Nahuatl (oral comprehension, speech production, reading, writing, and grammar). 20%, research report. 2. Intermediate students' progress will be evaluated in three categories: 40%, three tests on Older Nahuatl (grammar, transcription, translation, and commentary). 40%, three tests on Modern Nahuatl (reading, writing, and grammar) 20%, research report. 3. Advanced students' will be evaluated based on their research paper written in Modern Nahuatl. Calendar and activities: There will be six weeks of work from June 20 to July 29, 2005, for a total of 140 hours. The academic activities will be distributed according to the following four components: 1. OLDER NAHUATL Students will meet two hours per day, five days per week during six weeks (four weeks at the Institute in Zacatecas, and two weeks in the indigenous community of Tepecxitla, Veracruz) in order to study Older Nahuatl. a). Students at the beginner's level will work on chapters one through eight of James Lockhart's Nahuatl as Written, and will translate some elementary selections of colonial texts. b). Students at the intermediate level will work on chapters nine through sixteen of James Lockhart's Nahuatl as Written, and will begin to transcribe, translate and comment colonial manuscripts. c). Students at the advanced level will work exclusively on the transcription, analysis and commentary of colonial manuscripts. Materials for the Older Nahuatl component: All students must have personal copies of the following texts: 1. Karttunen, Francis. 1983. An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl. Texas Linguistics Series. Austin: University of Texas Press. 2. Lockhart, James. 2001. Examples and Texts of Nahuatl as Written. Los Angeles: UCLA Latin American Center Publications. 3. Lockhart, James. 2001. Nahuatl as Written. Lessons in Older Written Nahuatl, with Copious Examples and Texts. Stanford: Stanford University Press. 4. Molina, Alonso de. 1977(1555-1571). Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana y mexicana y castellana. Colecci?n ?Biblioteca Porr?a? 44. M?xico: Porr?a. In addition, all students will receive, free of charge, numerous grammar charts and vocabulary lists, as well as photocopies and digitalized images of the manuscripts which will be studied. 2. MODERN NAHUATL Students will meet two hours per day, five days per week during six weeks (four weeks at the Institute in Zacatecas, and two weeks in the indigenous community of Tepecxitla) to study Modern Nahuatl with a native-speaking professor. Beginning level: The first two weeks will entail an immersion experience, in which students will learn to converse in Nahuatl without the use of translations or grammar. This component is based on the early methodology of linguists Stephen Krashen and Tracy Terrell, and will conclude with a listening comprehension and oral production test. During a second two-week phase, students will continue with the previous conversation activities. In addition, they will be introduced to the writing system and the three basic grammatical structures: the noun, verb, and relational phrases. The grammar studies will be based on a series of charts and written exercises developed by the professors. This stage will conclude with a conversation exam and a written exam on the writing system and the grammar. During a third two-week period, held in Tepecxitla, students will begin to read Modern Nahuatl texts, emphasizing comprehension. A basic bilingual vocabulary prepared by the professors will be used, and the course will end with a reading comprehension test. Intermediate level: Durante the six weeks of the course, students will read, analyze and comment, both orally and in writing, diverse Modern Nahuatl texts. In addition, they will study some complex lingu?stic structures. Advanced level: Students will research, en collaboration with the Institute's professors, a topic of Nahua culture, basing their work on older written sources, or on modern sources, be they oral or written. They will write a paper in modern Nahuatl on this topic. 3. INDIVIDUAL WORK WITH NATIVE SPEAKERS Each beginning student will meet with a native speaker for one hour per day during the four weeks in Zacatecas, in order to work on some aspect of the language and/or culture which interests him or her. For this reason, and before being admitted to the program, each student will need to submit a proposal of the project they would like to work on. The personnel at IDIEZ will advise prospective students on this process before course registration. Students may propose individual or group research projects, or they may participate in any of the projects in which IDIEZ is currently involved. For example, we are preparing the first monolingual dictionary of the Nahuatl language. All students will prepare and turn in a research report at the end of the course. 4. RESIDENCY IN THE HUASTECA REGION On July 16 we will travel to Tepecxitla, Veracruz where we will remain from July 17 to 29. Each student will live with a Nahua family and participate in daily activities, including the preparation and execution of the Chicomexochitl ceremony. We will also continue with formal instruction in conversation, reading and writing in Modern Nahuatl, and translation of older texts. Complete bibliography The complete bibliography of Nahua works contained in the Institute's library can be consulted at http://www.idiez.org.mx. Cost: The cost of the program is: 1. US$2070 for tuition. 2. US$750-900 for transportation, room and board for six weeks. The difference depends on the room and board options during the four-week stay in Zacatecas. The most expensive option is for an individual room with a family. The least expensive option is for a shared room with a family, a rented house shared with other students, or other similar options. 3. Not included are the course texts and the round trip between your point of origin and Zacatecas. 4. FLAS. Students at U.S. universities may obtain FLAS funding for this course through their home academic institution. For more information, please contact: John Sullivan, Ph.D. Home phone: +52 (492) 768-6048 Tacuba 152, int. 47 Mobile: 044-492-544-5985 Colonia Centro Office: +52 (492) 925-3415 or 925-3416 Zacatecas, Zac., 98000 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 M?xico Email: idiez at mac.com http://www.idiez.org.mx -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 9679 bytes Desc: not available URL: