From Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM Sun May 1 11:53:59 2005 From: Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM (Ian Mursell) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 12:53:59 +0100 Subject: etimology of tzictli In-Reply-To: <71F249219F2E3845B88BE93BEC6DA4FB025760EA@lsa-m2.lsa.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: Dear Friends, I'm doing some simple research on the origin of chewing gum for our educational website on the Aztecs (for UK schools), and am getting confused over the usage of the words chicle and tzictli. I¹ve read the key section in Book 10 of the Florentine Codex (Dibble and Anderson ed.), but am confused by the reference to chicle: it comes after a description of bitumen (!) which reads ŒBitumen is used for two purposes. The first is to be mixed with pulverized tobacco, so that the pulverized tobacco may be made pleasing. The pleasing scent of the tobacco with bitumen spreads over the whole land. As its second use, it is used by women; they chew the bitumen. And what they chew is named chicle. They do not chew it alone; they provide it with axin. They mix it with axin. It cannot be chewed alone; it crumbles. And in this manner it is improved: axin is provided, axin is mixed in, so that it is softened, smoothed....¹ Then it goes on to talk about its social use. ŒAxin¹ by the way appears to be Œan oily yellowish substance which is produced by a scale insect of the same name upon the branches of trees¹. There¹s no reference at all here to the chicozapote tree, where I thought chicle came/comes from! There¹s also a reference at the end of the chapter to ŒMountain chicle¹ or wild chicle that is also chewed. It says Œthe mountain chicle is a herb; the substance is extracted from its root¹. 'Bitumen' is translated from 'chapuputli', chicle from 'tzictli', and mountain chicle from 'tepetzictli'. And the word for bitumen-mixed-chicle appears to be 'tlaaxnelolli'. Would anyone be able to shed some light on the Nahuatl words for me - and indeed on anything to do with chewing bitumen, for that matter! Not being able to read Nahuatl, I quickly get stuck... Many thanks in anticipation. Ian Ian Mursell Director Mexicolore 28 Warriner Gardens London SW11 4EB, U.K. Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 3643 www.mexicolore.co.uk Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com info at mexicolore.co.uk 1980-2005: 25 years of bringing Mexico and the Aztecs to life in schools and museums throughout England. Team visits, online teaching resources and services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and much more - all from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team' (British Museum Education Service) From Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM Sun May 1 11:56:28 2005 From: Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM (Ian Mursell) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 12:56:28 +0100 Subject: ETYMOLOGY of tzictli Message-ID: Sorry, I meant to write Œetymology¹! Ian Mexicolore -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Sun May 1 13:03:51 2005 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 09:03:51 -0400 Subject: etymology of tzictli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Nahuatl word tzictli (source of Hispanized chicle) is related to the verb tzicoa, which means to stick things together or to stick to something. There is a related word tzictic meaning something that has become sticky. Hence there is nothing in the noun tzictli itself that says it has to be the gum of the sapodilla tree, although that is what it usually refers to these days. Dibble and Anderson, the translators of the Florentine Codex into English, had a broad knowledge of the context of what appears in the FC, so they probably knew about something that dictated translation of this particular passage. Chapopohtli is a type of tar/asphalt. Simeon describes it as a type of fragrant bitumen used for incense and also says women used it for cleaning their teeth. Tepetzictli literally means "hill/mountain-tzictli." Joe can undoubtedly provide more examples that will enlighten this. From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Sun May 1 21:43:12 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 16:43:12 -0500 Subject: etymology of tzictli In-Reply-To: <12ddb074fcc66c60d0ccbe052d865e00@nantucket.net> Message-ID: > Joe can undoubtedly provide more examples that will enlighten this. > Examples, yes, enlightening... I don't know. The material at the bottom of this message is still so full of errors that I should keep them out of the light of day -- but I will welcome corrections. In some cases, the morpheme tags just constitute post-it notes to myself about "possibilities". I think that the basic morpheme is tzictli and it can verb intransitively to tzicahui (it gets sticky) and then add causative to form tzicoa -- qui-tzicoa (he sticks it). It also verbs and preteritely adjectivalizes: tzic-ti-c (sticky). The semantic creep and flow is interesting -- qui-tzicoa (he sticks him, he detains him). And the idea of something detained or held back extends to a limb that is fully functional: matzicoltic (manco de la mano -- having a lame hand or arm, or, possibly, lacking a hand or arm). It is possible that the way a comb gets caught in being pulling through the hair may be involved in tzicahuaztli (comb). I will send a separate message with the examples that I've found in the Florentine Codex. Joe *tzictli*** cuatetzicoa , mo-. . . b.2 f.3 icpatlahuillatzicoltiloni. mechero de candilo lampara; mechero de candil o lampara; mechero de lampara. . 55m-13 itlatzicoltiloca. estornija de carro. . 71m2-8 ixtetzicoa =nitla=. tundir pa¤o. . 71m2- 8 ixtetzicohua =nitla. tundir pa¤o. . 71m1-20 matziccua. inabil y torpe; ynabil cosa. . 71m2-9 matziccuayotl. inabilidad y torpeza; ynabilidad assi. . 71m2-9 matzicol. lacking an arm. . b.10 f.1 matzicolihui. . . b.1 f.1 matzicolihui =ni. mancarse assi. . 71m1-14 matzicolihuiaya. . . b.1 f.5 matzicolihuiya. he was lame in a hand. . b.1 f.3 matzicolihuiz. . . b.4 f.8 matzicoltic. . . b.2 f.2 matzicoltic. manco de manos; manco delas manos; manco dela mano; ‡opo dela mano. . 55m-13 matzitzicol. manco delas manos. . 71m1-14 matzitzicolihui =ni. mancarse assi. . 71m1-14 matzitzicolihuiztli. gota de manos. . 55m-10 matzitzicoltic. gotoso desta manera; gotoso manco de manos; ‡opo dela mano. . 55m-10 oncan tzicahui in neteilhuiliztli [scribal error: ??facsimile has tzicaui; porrua edition has tzicani: 71m1]. estado de la causa. . 71m1-11 oncan tzicahui in tlatolli. estado de la causa. . 71m1-11 oncan tzicahui inneteilhuiliztli. el estado enque esta el pleyto. . 71m2-13 oncan tzicahui intlatolli. el estado enque esta el pleyto. . 71m2-13 tacanaltzictli. wild chicle. . b.10 f.5 tecanaltzictli. wild chicle. . b.10 f.5 tepetzichuia , mo-. . . b.11 f.1 tepetzictli. mountain chicle. . b.10 f.5 tepotzicuahuazhuia =nitla=onitlatepotzicuahuazhui. almohazar. . 71m2-17 tepotzicuahuaztli. almohaza. . 71m2-17 tepoztlatlatzicoltiloni. alfilel; corchete; alfiler; o corchete. . 55m-00 tepozyahuallalatzicoltiloni. heuilla o heuilleta. . 55m-11 [t]lancuatzicolihuiz , tihual-. your knees will become crippled. . b.9 f.5 tlancuatzicoltic. coxo dela rodilla; coxo de rodilla; tollido de la rodilla. . 55m-4 tlatzicoltiloni =tla. estornija de carreta. . 71m2-24 tzic , i-. her chewing gum. . b.4 f.9 tzicahuazhuia =nino=oninotzicahuazhui. peinarse. . 71m2-26 tzicahuaztepiton. peine peque¤o. . 71m2-26 tzicahuaztli. peine. . 71m2-26 tzicalhuia =nic. detener algo a otro. . 71m1-8 tzicalhuia =nic=onictzicalhui. detener alguna cosa a otro. . 71m2-26 tzicauhqui. cosa asida, o pegada a alguna cosa; parado assi. . 71m2-26 tziccuacua. she chews chicle; they chew chicle. . b.10 f.3 tziccuacualiztli. act of chewing chicle; the chewing of chicle. . b.10 f.5 tziccuacuaz. she will chew chicle. . b.6 f.13 tzico =mo. auezindado assi. . 71m1-3 tzico =otla. arraigada cosa assi; arraygada cosa con raizes. . 71m1-2 tzico =te. el que detiene a otro; tardadora casa. . 71m2-19 tzico =te [scribal error: ??no period between netzicoloni and tetzico (end of line intervenes): 71m1]. tardadora cosa. . 71m1-20 tzicoa , tla-. he holds something. . b.4 f.1 tzicoa =mo. paralo que anda, de cosas ynanimadas; parar lo que anda. . 55m-15 tzicoa =nic. parar o estancar alo q/anda de cosas inanimadas; parar o estancar alo que anda de cosas inanimadas. . 55m-15 tzicoa =nino. auezindarse o detenerse en algun lugar; estar lo que suele andar; estar o pararse lo que suele andar; tardarse; tenerse en algo el que se cae. . 71m1-3 tzicoa =nino=oninotzico. detenerse en alguna parte, o asirse en alguna, o dealguna cosa. . 71m2-26 tzicoa =nite. a quedarlo que anda; aquedar lo que anda; detener a otro; detener al que anda; detener a otro detardarle; engorrar; estoruar o detener al que camina; parar o estancar alo que anda; de cosas animadas; parar o estancar a lo que anda; quedar alo que huye; retener; tardar a otro; ympedir al que se quiere yr o detener alo que anda; ympedir al que se quiere yr; o detener al que anda. . 55m-1 tzicoa =nite=onitetzico. detener a algunopara que nose vaya. . 71m2-26 tzicoa =nitla. arraigarse algo o echar rayzes; arraygarse echar raizes. . 71m1-2 tzicoa =nitla=onitlatzico. asir, o pegar algo a otra cosa. . 71m2-26 tzicoa =nonno. detenerse tardando; detenerse en alguna parte. . 55m-6 tzicoa =nonno=. cosa asida, o pegada a alguna cosa. . 71m2-26 tzicoa =nonno=ononnotzico. detenerse en alguna parte, o asirse en alguna, o dealguna cosa. . 71m2-26 tzicoa =tla. estancarse el agua que corria. . 55m-9 tzicoa =tla [scribal error: ??no period betwen tlatzicoa and yloti: 71m1]. estancarse el agua que corria. . 71m1-11 tzicoa =tla=otlatzico. asirse o pegarse algo a otra cosa. . 71m2-24 tzicoani =mo. tardador que se tarda. . 55m-19 tzicoani =te. detenedor assi; el que detiene a otro; tardador de otro. . 71m1-8 tzicoliuhqui. ; curved; twisted. . b.11 f.2 tzicoliztli =ne. auezindamiento tal; detenimiento del que se detiene en alguna parte; tardan‡a. . 71m1-3 tzicoliztli =te. detenimento; detenimiento tal; retencion; ympedimento tal; ympedimiento tal. . 55m-6 tzicoliztli =tla. asimiento tal. . 71m2- 24 tzicolli =tla. cosa asida desta manera; detenido; detenido assi; parado assi; ympedido assi. . 71m2-24 tzicolo , on-. . . b.4 f.11 tzicolo , ti-. . . b.1 f.1 tzicololtia , qui-. it deters him. . b.4 f.1 tzicololtia =nite. estoruar o impedir a otro; ympedir que no se haga alguna cosa. . 71m1-11 tzicololtia =nite=onitetzicololti. estoruar, o impedir a otro. . 71m2-26 tzicololtiz , mitz-. it will impede you. . b.4 f.7 tzicololtiz =atle mitz. ninguna cosa te estoruara. . 71m1-16 tzicoloni =ne. cosa que haze detener; tardadora casa. . 71m2-12 tzicoloni =ne [scribal error: ??no period between netzicoloni and tetzico (end of line intervenes): 71m1]. tardadora cosa. . 71m1-20 tzicoltia , quitla-. he keeps it. . b.4 f.1 tzicoltic. curved. . b.11 f.2 tzicoltilia =nite. detener a otro. . 71m1-8 tzicoltilia =nite=onitezicoltili. detener a otro. . 71m2-26 tzicoltiloca =itla. estornija de carro. . 55m-9 tzicoltiloni =tlatla. estornija de carro. . 55m-9 tzicoqui =mo. auezindado assi. . 71m1-3 tzicotica =tla. cosa asida o pegada a algo; estable cosa que esta; estable cosa que esta firme. . 71m2-24 tzictia. it becomes sticky, it adheres. . b.9 f.6 tzictic. gummy. . b.11 f.24 tzictilia , nic-. I solder it. . b.11 f.23 tzictlatlatza , mo-. she clacks chicle; they click chicle. . b.10 f.3 tzictli. chicle. . b.10 f.4 tzicuahuazhuia =nino=oninotzicuahuazhui. peinarse. . 71m2-26 tzicuahuazhuia =nite=onitetzicuahuazhui. peinar a otro. . 71m2-26 tzicuahuazhuiani =mo. peinado, o el que se peina. . 71m2-10 tzicuahuazhuiliztli =ne. el acto de peinarse alguno. . 71m2-12 tzicuahuaztli. peyne. . 71m2-26 tzitziccuacua. they constantly chew chicle. . b.10 f.5 From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Sun May 1 21:51:24 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 16:51:24 -0500 Subject: examples of tzictli -- Florentine In-Reply-To: <12ddb074fcc66c60d0ccbe052d865e00@nantucket.net> Message-ID: Here are the examples from the Florentine: 1. *itzic*. zan ic nemintlapitzahua, itzic quitlatlatztzatinemi, she did nothing but talk in a loud voice; she went about snapping her chewing gum. (b.4 f.9 c.28 p.95) 2. *matzicol*. in ahyectli conetontli ahcemelle ahonmanamic, teopoliuhqui, tencua, xocotonqui, matzicol, ihtlacauhqui, the bad infant [is] unfit, without resistance to sickness, full of sickness, hare-lipped, lacking an arm, a leg, blemished. (b.10 f.1 c.3 p.13) 3. *matzicolihui*. inic aca itech quinehuaya, tlahuelilocati, tennecuilihui, ixnecuilihui, matzicolihui, icxicopichahui, icximimiqui, momacuecuetza, tencualacquiza: when one was under their spell, possessed, one's mouth was twisted, one's face was contorted; one lacked use of a hand; one's feet were misshapen -- one's feet were deadened; one's hand trembled; one foamed at the mouth. (b.1 f.1 c.10 p.19) 4. *matzicolihui*. ihuan in aquin zan quipiqui, zan nempehua in matzicolihui, in tennecuilihui, in matzicolihui, icxiquicuecuetza: coni, and one who is sluggish, [who] starts in vain, whose arms become paralyzed, whose mouth becomes twisted, whose arms become paralyzed, [whose] legs wobble -- he drinks it. (b.11 f.17 c.7 p.175) 5. *matzicolihui*. ihuan in aquin zan quipiqui, zan nempehua in matzicolihui, in tennecuilihui, in matzicolihui, icxiquicuecuetza: coni, and one who is sluggish, [who] starts in vain, whose arms become paralyzed, whose mouth becomes twisted, whose arms become paralyzed, [whose] legs wobble -- he drinks it. (b.11 f.17 c.7 p.175) 6. *matzicolihuiaya*. inic aca itech quinehuaya, in tlahuelilocatia, tennecuilihuia, ixnecuilihuia, matzicolihuiaya, icxicopichahuia: icximimiquia, momacuecuetzaya, tencualacquizaya: when someone was under their spell, he was possessed, his mouth was twisted, his face contorted, he lacked use of a hand, his feet were misshapen, his feet were deadened, his hand trembled, he foamed at the mouth. (b.1 f.5 c.Ap p.72) 7. *matzicolihuiya*. ihuan in aca matzicolihuiya, ima quicuecuetza, icxi quicuecuetza, macopichahui, icxicopichahui, icxicuecuechca, ihixatotoco, tempapatlaca, tenhuihuiyoca, itech quinehua: mitoa, oquitlahuelique in xoxouhque tepicme. and if one were lame in one hand, [if] his arm quivered, his leg quivered, a hand became misshapen, a foot became misshapen, his foot shook, his eyes trembled, his lips quivered, his lips trembled, if he were possessed, it was said, the green mountain gods had become angered by him. (b.1 f.3 c.21 p.49) 8. *matzicolihuiz*. ahzo aca tennecuilihuiz, tempatzihuiz, ixnecuilihuiz, ixhuitzalihuiz, iten papatlacaz, iten huihuiyocaz, yollotlahuelilotiz, itech quinehuaz, tencualacquizaz, matzicolihuiz, macopichahuiz, icxi quihuilanaz. etx. perhaps one of them would have twisted lips, or a shrunken mouth; or be cross-eyed or of weak vision; or his lips would quiver or quake; or he would be maddened--a devil would possess him and he would foam at the mouth; or he would have withered, twisted arms; or be lame, etc. (b.4 f.8 c.22 p.79) 9. *matzicoltic*. amo mahuihuitlatztic, amo matzicoltic, amo macuecuetzin, amo mapiltotomactic, he was not long-handed; he was not one-handed; he was not handless; he was not fat-fingered. (b.2 f.2 c.24 p.67) 10. *mitztzicololtiz*. in iuhcan in cuauhtla, zacatla, in ahuacan, in tepehuacan, aocmo tle ic tontlapolotiaz, aoc tle ic tonixmamauhtiaz, tonixmimictiaz, aoc tle mitztzicololtiz, aoc tle mitzixtilquetzaz: "in such places as forests, deserts, and cities, there is nothing to bring thee defeat, to frighten, daze, impede, or terrify thee.". (b.4 f.7 c.18 p.64) 11. *mocuatetzicoa*. mocuatexoloxima, mocuatezonoa, motlatetecilhuia, amo mayochiqui, amo mayoichiqui, amo mocuacoconaloa, amo mocuatetzicoa. their hair was shorn as if they were one's pages; their hair was cut; their hair was clipped; they were not clipped smooth like a gourd; they were not clipped bald like a gourd; their heads were not smooth like pots; they did not stick [hair] to the head. (b.2 f.3 c.24 p.69) 12. *motepetzichuia*. in inecuayia, oncan motlahzalhuia motepetzichuia. at its place of drinking raw maquey syrup, there it is noosed, it is caught with a wild chicle bait. (b.11 f.1 c.1 p.8) 13. *motzictlatlatza*. tziccuacua, motzictlatlatza, she chews chicle -- she clacks chicle. (b.10 f.3 c.15 p.56) 14. *motzictlatlatza*. auh in cihua tlahueliloque in mitoa ahuiyanime, atle innemamachiliz, huel mixmana: inic mantinemi in tziccuacua, in otlica in tianquizco motzictlatlatza: but the bad women, those called harlots, [show] no fine feelings; quite publicly they go about chewing chicle along the roads, in the market place, clacking like castanets. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 15. *nictzictilia*. nictzictilia, I solder it. (b.11 f.23 c.9 p.235) 16. *ontzicolo*. mochi tlacatl iuh connequi, in ma za huel onixpatlahua, onteyohua, onitauhcayohua, in maca tle ic onmopinauhti, ompinahuizcui, ompinahuiztlamati, ommomamati, ontzinquiza, ommixtilquetza, ic tehuicpa ontzicolo, all persons wished that they be given recognition, fame, and distinction; that they might not, on the contrary, be shamed, receive blame, be embarrassed, confused, belittled, confounded, or excluded from others. (b.4 f.11 c.37 p.122) 17. *quitlatzicoltia*. atle quitlazaloltia, atle quitlatzicoltia, nothing could he retain, nothing could he keep. (b.4 f.1 c.2 p.8) 18. *quitzicololtia*. atle quitzicololtia, amo pipinonemi, ahcan tzinquizcatlayecoa, nothing deterred him; he did not live in humiliation; nowhere did he turn tail in battle. (b.4 f.1 c.3 p.9) 19. *tacanaltzictli*. in tepetzictli tecanaltzictli, anozo tacanaltzictli: ca zan no iuhquin tzictli, the mountain chicle, or wild chicle, is just like [ordinary] chicle. <--tzictli> (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.90) 20. *tecanaltzictli*. in tepetzictli tecanaltzictli, anozo tacanaltzictli: ca zan no iuhquin tzictli, the mountain chicle, or wild chicle, is just like [ordinary] chicle. <--tzictli> (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.90) 21. *tepetzictli*. in tepetzictli tecanaltzictli, anozo tacanaltzictli: ca zan no iuhquin tzictli, the mountain chicle, or wild chicle, is just like [ordinary] chicle. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.90) 22. *tepetzictli*. in tepetzictli: ca xihuitl inelhuayo itech quicui. the mountain chicle is an herb; [the substance] is extracted from its root. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.90) 23. *tihual[t]lancuatzicolihuiz*. ma achi tictoca: inin timitzilhuia intlacamo iuh ticchihuaz tihualixpopoyotiz, tihuallancuatzicolihuiz, tihualcocototzahuiz: mayest thou in some way follow this which we tell thee; if thou dost not do thus, thou shalt become blind; thy knees, thy legs will become crippled. (b.9 f.5 c.12 p.57) 24. *titzicolo*. ximotlapalo, ma timopinoquetz, ma titzicolo. "be daring; be not timid because of shame; be not backward.". (b.1 f.1 c.12 p.25) 25. *tlatzicoa*. atle huel ic tlazaloya, atle huel ic tlaana, atle huel ic tlatzicoa, so nothing would be retained; he could hold nothing; nothing would be kept;. (b.4 f.1 c.2 p.7) 26. *tziccuacua*. tziccuacua, motzictlatlatza, she chews chicle -- she clacks chicle. (b.10 f.3 c.15 p.56) 27. *tziccuacua*. no yehuantin intech monequi in ye huel cihua in ye huel ichpopochti: ihuan mochin in cihua, in ichpopochti mixmana in tziccuacua. also the mature women, the unmarried women use it; and all the women who [are] unmarried chew chicle in public. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 28. *tziccuacua*. in tecihuahuan no tziccuacua no tziccuacua yece amo mixmana: one's wife also chews chicle, but not in public. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 29. *tziccuacua*. in tecihuahuan no tziccuacua no tziccuacua yece amo mixmana: one's wife also chews chicle, but not in public. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 30. *tziccuacua*. no yehuanti in cacahualti, ihuan ilamatque tziccuacua, amo mixmana. also the widowed and the old women do not, in public. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 31. *tziccuacua*. auh in cihua tlahueliloque in mitoa ahuiyanime, atle innemamachiliz, huel mixmana: inic mantinemi in tziccuacua, in otlica in tianquizco motzictlatlatza: but the bad women, those called harlots, [show] no fine feelings; quite publicly they go about chewing chicle along the roads, in the market place, clacking like castanets. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 32. *tziccuacua*. inic tziccuacua cihua ipampa ic quiquixtia in imiztlac, ihuan ic mocamaahuialia, mocamahuelilia, for this reason the women chew chicle: because thereby they cause their saliva to flow and thereby the mouths are scented; the mouth is given a pleasing taste. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 33. *tziccuacua*. ipampa in tziccuacua inic amo ihiyalozque. thus they chew chicle in order not to be detested. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 34. *tziccuacua*. in oquichtin no tziccuacua: inic quiquixtia imiztlac ihuan ic motlampaca: auh inin cenca ichtaca, zan niman amo mixmana. the men also chew chicle to cause their saliva to flow and to clean the teeth, but this very secretly --never in public. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 35. *tziccuacua*. auh in aquin teixpan tziccuacua in toquichti cuitoyotl cahci, chimouhcayotl quinehuihuilia. and the men who publicly chew chicle achieve the status of sodomites; they equal the effeminates. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.90) 36. *tziccuacualiztli*. auh in impaniti tziccuacualiztli in innemac, yehuantin in ichpopochtotonti, in ichpochtepitoton, in cihuapipiltotonti: and the chewing of chicle [is] the preference, the privilege of the little girls, the small girls, the young women. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 37. *tziccuacualiztli*. in cocoxque in intoca chimouhque: huel innemac, in tziccuacualiztli, the chewing of chicle [is] the real privilege of the addicts termed "effeminates. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 38. *tziccuacuaz*. quitoa, amo tziccuacuaz in otztli, ca in ihcuac tlacatiz piltontli: zan mach motentzotzopotzaz, zan mach tlacuacuaz: ic mitoa motentzoponiz, totomahuaz in itenxipal, she said the pregnant woman should not chew chicle, for when the baby was born, its lips would be no more than perforated; its lips would thicken. (b.6 f.13 c.27 p.156) 39. *tzicoliuhqui*. anozo ixnextentlapallo, anoce ihhuitica tetecomayo, anozo itzmixicalcoliuhqui, ihuan tlazomaxtlatl, anoce tzicoliuhqui maxtlatl, ayacaichcayo, izazo quexquich tlazomaxtlatl, or the ashen gray one with red eyes on the border; or with earthen jars designed in feathers; or with the obsidian arrow step design; and costly breech clouts -- perhaps the breech clout with twisted ends, [or] with cotton at the ends -- various kinds of costly breech clouts;. (b.8 f.5 c.20 p.74) 40. *tzicoliuhqui*. quinamaca in nepapan ihhuitl, in tlazoihhuitl, quinamaca in quetzalli in chilchotic, in tzicoliuhqui in pilihhuitl. he sells various feathers -- precious feathers; he sells fine green feathers, chili-green feathers, those curved at the tip, the feathers of young birds. (b.10 f.4 c.16 p.61) 41. *tzicoliuhqui*. in iatlapaltitech onoc: inic centlamantli, in huel iiacol yacac ixhua: itoca tzicoliuhqui: on its wing, one kind which grows at the very point of the wing-bend is called tzicoliuhqui. (b.11 f.2 c.2 p.20) 42. *tzicoliuhqui*. in quihualtoquilia itoca, tzicoliuhqui: those which follow are called tzicoliuhqui [middle coverts]. (b.11 f.6 c.2 p.55) 43. *tzicoltic*. zan cualton, tzintliltic, xoxohuic, achi tzicoltic. they are of average size, black at the base, flesh-colored, somewhat curved. (b.11 f.2 c.2 p.20) 44. *tzictia*. in ipan quitlaza iztac teocuitlatl ic caltia, ic tzictia. they add it to silver [solder] to give it binding power, to make it adhere. (b.9 f.6 c.16 p.76) 45. *tzictia*. moneloa in tenextli, ic tzauctia, ic tzictia, ic tepitzahui. It is mixed with lime; thus it becomes sticky, thus it becomes adhesive; thus it hardens. (b.11 f.24 c.12 p.255) 46. *tzictic*. itech quiztica in itoca tetl, ihuan zoquitl: ipampa ca tlacuahuac, tzictic, tepitztic, cuichehuac, tlilehuac, chapopotic, its name comes from tetl [rock] and ‡oquitl [mud], because it is firm, gummy, hard; dark, blackish, bitumen-like. (b.11 f.24 c.12 p.252) 47. *tzictli*. quinamaca tlapalhuatzalli, tlacuahuac tlapalli, tlapalnextli, nocheztli, zacatlaxcalli texotli, tetizatl, tlilli, tlacehuilli, tlalxocotl, axi, tzictli, tlaaxnelolli, tlahuitl, tlilxochitl, mecaxochitl huei nacaztli, teonacaztli, tlacuatl, tlacuacuitlapilli, xiuhtotonti tlanelhuatotonti, chapopohtli, tecopalli, copalli, nacazcolotl, quimichpatli, matlalin, tlaliyac, apetztli. he sells dried pigment, bars of cochineal pigment, cochineal mixed with chalk or flour, [pure] cochineal; light yellow, sky blue pigment; chalk, lampblack, dark blue pigment; alum, axin, chicle, bitumen-mixed chicle, red ochre; tlilsochitl, mecaxochitl, uei nacaztli, teonacaztli; opossum, opossum tail; small herbs, small roots; bitumen, resin, copal; nacazcolotl, quimichpatli; a blue coloring made from blossoms; sulfate of copper, iron pyrites. (b.10 f.4 c.21 p.77) 48. *tzictli*. auh inin quicuacua itoca tzictli, and what they chew [is] named chicle. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 49. *tzictli*. in tepetzictli tecanaltzictli, anozo tacanaltzictli: ca zan no iuhquin tzictli, the mountain chicle, or wild chicle, is just like [ordinary] chicle. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.90) 50. *tzictli*. auh in tzictli inic mocuacua: ca tetzontecon cuacuauhtilia, quicocoa in tetzontecon. but the [other] chicle, when it is chewed, tires one's head; it gives one a headache. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.90) 51. *tzitziccuacua*. in oc cequintin cihuah in teixpan tzitziccuacua cihuatlahuelilocayotl cahci. other women who constantly chew chicle in public achieve the attributes of evil women. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) From amoxtli at EARTHLINK.NET Wed May 4 19:45:51 2005 From: amoxtli at EARTHLINK.NET (Walter Koenig) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:45:51 -0700 Subject: English-Nahuatl Dictionary / Translation Message-ID: Greetings, I am seeking a reliable English-Nahuatl Dictionary or word list for translating from Nahuatl to English. I have the "Hippocrene Concise Dictionary Nahuatl-English English-Nahuatl" by Fermin Herrera and the "English to Nahuatl Glossary" based on the word list of R. Joe Campbell organized by Anthony Appleyard. Are there any other sources available? Many thanks for your help. Best Wishes, Walter O. Koenig From idiez at MAC.COM Wed May 4 19:52:25 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 14:52:25 -0500 Subject: English-Nahuatl Dictionary / Translation In-Reply-To: <9af4b811611aadbf6b9daa79666ffe35@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Walter, Use the Hippocrene Dictionary for wrapping fish. What you want is the Frances Karttunen's, An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl,. It can be purchased through Amazon.com for $30, or through University of Oklahoma Press (www.oupress.com/bookdetail.asp?isbn=0-8061-2421-0) also for $30. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On May 4, 2005, at 2:45 PM, Walter Koenig wrote: > Greetings, > > I am seeking a reliable English-Nahuatl Dictionary or word list for > translating from Nahuatl to English. > > I have the "Hippocrene Concise Dictionary Nahuatl-English > English-Nahuatl" by Fermin Herrera > and the "English to Nahuatl Glossary" based on the word list of R. Joe > Campbell organized by Anthony Appleyard. > > Are there any other sources available? > > Many thanks for your help. > > Best Wishes, > > Walter O. Koenig > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1252 bytes Desc: not available URL: From micc2 at COX.NET Thu May 5 00:20:07 2005 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 17:20:07 -0700 Subject: English-Nahuatl Dictionary / Translation In-Reply-To: <65e140f221a1ad8eee9f7a6acd3572f8@mac.com> Message-ID: michpilquentzin? idiez at MAC.COM wrote: > Walter, > Use the Hippocrene Dictionary for wrapping fish. What you want is the > Frances Karttunen's, /An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl/,. It can be > purchased through Amazon.com for $30, or through University of > Oklahoma Press (www.oupress.com/bookdetail.asp?isbn=0-8061-2421-0) > also for $30. > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Unidad Académica de Idiomas > Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Histórico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > México > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > > On May 4, 2005, at 2:45 PM, Walter Koenig wrote: > > Greetings, > > I am seeking a reliable English-Nahuatl Dictionary or word list for > translating from Nahuatl to English. > > I have the "Hippocrene Concise Dictionary Nahuatl-English > English-Nahuatl" by Fermin Herrera > and the "English to Nahuatl Glossary" based on the word list of R. > Joe > Campbell organized by Anthony Appleyard. > > Are there any other sources available? > > Many thanks for your help. > > Best Wishes, > > Walter O. Koenig > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 5 16:25:55 2005 From: teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM (Steffen Haurholm-Larsen) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 16:25:55 +0000 Subject: What kind of nawatl? In-Reply-To: <9af4b811611aadbf6b9daa79666ffe35@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hi Walter I was wondering what kind of nawatl you want to translate, is it classical nawatl or some modern dialect? If your interest lies with classical nawatl then the best dictionary you can get is "Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana" by Alonso de Molina. That of course requires knowledge of spanish. The other option of getting the Molina information is by getting your hands on "A Morphological Dictionary of Classical Nahuatl: Index to the Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellana of Fray Alonso de Molina" by Joe Campbell. If you know french then there is a dictionary in french partially based on Molinas Vocabulario as well, its called "Dictionnaire de la Langue Nahuatl ou Mexicaine" by R�mi Sim�on. The most frequently used words of Molinas Vocabulario appears in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl by Frances Karttunen. Of course you should be aware that some of the entries are based on classical nawatl material while others are drawn from modern sources. I hope you will find the diccionary you are looking for or at least a library that has it. Best regards Steffen H.-Larsen, University of Copenhagen >From: Walter Koenig >Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >Subject: Re: English-Nahuatl Dictionary / Translation >Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:45:51 -0700 > >Greetings, > >I am seeking a reliable English-Nahuatl Dictionary or word list for >translating from Nahuatl to English. > >I have the "Hippocrene Concise Dictionary Nahuatl-English >English-Nahuatl" by Fermin Herrera >and the "English to Nahuatl Glossary" based on the word list of R. Joe >Campbell organized by Anthony Appleyard. > >Are there any other sources available? > >Many thanks for your help. > >Best Wishes, > >Walter O. Koenig _________________________________________________________________ F� alle de nye og sjove ikoner med MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.dk/ From Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM Sat May 7 15:44:52 2005 From: Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM (Ian Mursell) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 16:44:52 +0100 Subject: etymology of tzictli In-Reply-To: <12ddb074fcc66c60d0ccbe052d865e00@nantucket.net> Message-ID: Thank you Frances and Joe for your helpful information on this. Could I just ask if you could throw any light on the word 'tlaaxnelolli' which appears in translation as 'bitumen-mixed-chicle'? Best regards, Ian Mexicolore London From dacosentino at EARTHLINK.NET Sat May 7 18:45:55 2005 From: dacosentino at EARTHLINK.NET (Delia Cosentino) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 13:45:55 -0500 Subject: tepi In-Reply-To: <9af4b811611aadbf6b9daa79666ffe35@earthlink.net> Message-ID: I am working with an AGN document involving a woman with the surname 'tepi', the meaning of which I am trying to parse (Is the 'pi' of pic, to pluck? Any other suggestions?). I'm wondering if there is any way that 'tepi' could jibe with a name glyph made up of a stylized stream of water grasped by a hand, which is found in an associated image of a woman? From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sat May 7 18:59:46 2005 From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 20:59:46 +0200 Subject: tepi Message-ID: "tepi" means little, generally its appears with either the -tzin or -ton diminutive suffix. -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Delia Cosentino Sent: zaterdag 7 mei 2005 20:46 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: tepi I am working with an AGN document involving a woman with the surname 'tepi', the meaning of which I am trying to parse (Is the 'pi' of pic, to pluck? Any other suggestions?). I'm wondering if there is any way that 'tepi' could jibe with a name glyph made up of a stylized stream of water grasped by a hand, which is found in an associated image of a woman? From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Sun May 8 04:03:25 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 23:03:25 -0500 Subject: tlaaxnellolli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ian, *Just* from the point of view of the elements contained in 'tlaaxnelolli', it would seem not to refer literally to "bitumen" or "chicle". 'nelihui' -- "swirl" 'neloa' (causative) -- "stir, mix" 'tlanelolli' (patientive noun) -- "something which is mixed" 'a:xin' "insect which yields a secretion" 'tlaaxnelolli' -- "something which is mixed 'axinly'" (with axin) Molina's secretions of 'axin' are down below (along with those of the Florentine). Joe Quoting Ian Mursell : > Could I just ask if you could throw any light on the word 'tlaaxnelolli' > which appears in translation as 'bitumen-mixed-chicle'? > *a:xin*** axcuahuitl. . . b.10 f.5 axhuia , c-. they put axin in it. . b.10 f.5 axhuia , m[o]-. axin is provided, axin is applied. . b.10 f.5 axhuia =nitla. barnizar con este barniz. . 71m1- 3 axhuia =nitla=onitlaaxhui. vntar o embixar algo con cierto vnguento que se llama axin. . 71m2-2 axhuiani =tla. barnizador desta manera. . 71m1-3 axhuiliztli =tla. barnizamiento tal. . 71m1-3 axhuilli , tla-. rubbed with axin. . b.10 f.5 axhuilli =tla. barnizada cosa, assi. . 71m1-3 axi. ; axin. . b.10 f.4 axin. . . b.10 f.5 axin. barniz de otra manera; cierto vnguento desta tierra. . 71m1-3 axin. axin. . b.3 f.1 axio. . . b.10 f.8 axixipetzcoa , m[o]-. she repeatedly anoints herself with axin. . b.10 f.3 axnelolli , tla-. something which has axin mixed in. . b.10 f.4 axneloltica , tla-. with axin mixed in, by means of an axin mixture. . b.10 f.8 axpetzcoa , m[o]-. she anoints herself with axin. . b.10 f.3 axtica. with axin, using axin. . b.10 f.9 copalaxtica. using an unguent of burned copal incense. . b.8 f.3 tenaxhuilo , ne-. there is applying of axin to the lips. . b.10 f.5 teoaxi. . . b.10 f.9 teohuaxi. . . b.10 f.9 tlilaxi. . . b.10 f.8 tlilaxio. . . b.10 f.8 From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Mon May 9 13:36:33 2005 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 08:36:33 -0500 Subject: Molina Arte Message-ID: The Biblioteca Cervantes Virtual has just posted the facsimile edition of Fr. Andres de Molina's Arte de la lengua mexicana. http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/FichaObra.html?Ref=13906 John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Mon May 9 13:37:55 2005 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 08:37:55 -0500 Subject: Molina Confessionario Message-ID: The Biblioteca Cervantes has also published the facsimile edition of Molina's Confessionario breve en lengua mexicana http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/FichaObra.html?Ref=13909 John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM Tue May 10 17:00:28 2005 From: Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM (Ian Mursell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 18:00:28 +0100 Subject: tlaaxnellolli In-Reply-To: <1115525005.427d8f8d359fe@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Thank you very much for this, Joe - much appreciated. Ian Mexicolore, London > Ian, > > *Just* from the point of view of the elements contained in 'tlaaxnelolli', > it would seem not to refer literally to "bitumen" or "chicle". > > 'nelihui' -- "swirl" > 'neloa' (causative) -- "stir, mix" > 'tlanelolli' (patientive noun) -- "something which is mixed" > 'a:xin' "insect which yields a secretion" > 'tlaaxnelolli' -- "something which is mixed 'axinly'" (with axin) > > Molina's secretions of 'axin' are down below (along with those of the > Florentine). > > Joe > > Quoting Ian Mursell : > >> Could I just ask if you could throw any light on the word 'tlaaxnelolli' >> which appears in translation as 'bitumen-mixed-chicle'? >> > > > *a:xin*** > axcuahuitl. . . b.10 f.5 > axhuia , c-. they put axin in it. . b.10 f.5 > axhuia , m[o]-. axin is provided, axin is applied. . > b.10 f.5 > axhuia =nitla. barnizar con este barniz. . 71m1- > 3 > axhuia =nitla=onitlaaxhui. vntar o embixar algo con cierto vnguento > que se llama axin. . 71m2-2 > axhuiani =tla. barnizador desta manera. . 71m1-3 > axhuiliztli =tla. barnizamiento tal. . 71m1-3 > axhuilli , tla-. rubbed with axin. . b.10 f.5 > axhuilli =tla. barnizada cosa, assi. . 71m1-3 > axi. ; axin. . b.10 f.4 > axin. . . b.10 f.5 > axin. barniz de otra manera; cierto vnguento desta tierra. . > 71m1-3 > axin. axin. . b.3 f.1 > axio. . . b.10 f.8 > axixipetzcoa , m[o]-. she repeatedly anoints herself with axin. a:xin-dupl-xi?-petzcahui-caus06>. b.10 f.3 > axnelolli , tla-. something which has axin mixed in. nelihui-caus06-l1>. b.10 f.4 > axneloltica , tla-. with axin mixed in, by means of an axin mixture. > . b.10 f.8 > axpetzcoa , m[o]-. she anoints herself with axin. petzcahui-caus06>. b.10 f.3 > axtica. with axin, using axin. . b.10 f.9 > copalaxtica. using an unguent of burned copal incense. ti1-ca2>. b.8 f.3 > tenaxhuilo , ne-. there is applying of axin to the lips. a:xin-v05b-lo:1>. b.10 f.5 > teoaxi. . . b.10 f.9 > teohuaxi. . . b.10 f.9 > tlilaxi. . . b.10 f.8 > tlilaxio. . . b.10 f.8 From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Wed May 11 05:56:00 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 00:56:00 -0500 Subject: Molina Confessionario In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050509083700.04211b10@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Fritz's message about the availability of the Molina material available in facsimile on the website in Spain stirred me from the procastinatory stupor that I had been trapped in for the last five years. I had received a CD from Digibis with 38 documents in facsimile in 2000 and have used it heavily since then. Occasionally I have told myself that the listeros of Nahuat-l would enjoy the ready information on it ... and that I would search for the index tomorrow, man~ana, moztla, ... I include the information that I retrieved today, no worse for the wear (a bit dusty since it has lain up in the attic of my hard disk for all this time). The price of the CD in 2000 was 30,000 pesetas. With apologies, Joe OBRAS CLaSICAS SOBRE LA LENGUA NaHUATL [CD-Rom]. Compilacion de Ascension Hernandez de Leon-Portilla. Coleccion "Clasicos Tavera". Serie IX: Fuentes Ling=FCisticas Indigenas. Volumen 8. Numero 16. Madrid. Fundacion Historica Tavera y Digibis. 1998. Obras clasicas sobre la lengua Nahuatl forma parte de un amplio proyecto, la "Coleccion Clasicos Tavera", cuyo objetivo es la edicion en CD-Rom de las obras mas relevantes para el conocimiento del pasado de los paises, regiones y ciudades de America Latina, Espanna, Portugal y Filipinas, asi como de ciertos temas monograficos relacionados con esas mismas areas geograficas. El numero 16 contiene una seleccion de textos (36 libros sobre artes, vocabularios, doctrinas, confesionarios, manuales de sacramento, otros libros de tema religioso y antigua palabra, con unas 10.000 paginas aproximadamente) compilados por la Dra. Ascension Hernandez de Leon Portilla, y una amplia y bien concebida introduccion en la que se explica el por que de la eleccion y se revisa brevemente lo que se sabe sobre la lengua nahuatl y la importancia que dichos textos tienen para su estudio. Las obras han sido digitalizadas en edicion facsimilar. El manejo y consulta del CD-Rom es sencillo, no obstante, cuenta con una buena guia de ayuda, un sumario general en el que se detallan los contenidos y a traves del que es posible realizar busquedas por distintos campos (uno a uno o varios a la vez): autor, titulo, palabras clave, y una ficha independiente para cada uno de los textos en la que, aparte de sus caracteristicas, se incluye un indice que permite busquedas similares a las del sumario general. El sistema ofrece distintos tipos de visualizacion (zoom, rotacion e inversion de imagen, modificacion de los niveles de contraste), y permite seleccionar partes del contenido y guardarlas en cualquier otro soporte magnetico e imprimirlas con una calidad muy superior a la de una fotocopia convencional. En definitiva, la edicion digital pone a disposicion del investigador un acceso integral y sencillo a la documentacion. A continuacion detallamos en contenido del CD-Rom. indice de la obra: ALDAMA y GUEVARA, Jose Agustin (1754): Arte de la lengua mexicana. Mexico. Imprenta de la Lengua mexicana. ALVA, Bartolome de (1634): Confessionario mayor y menor de la lengua mexicana: y platicas contra las supersticiones de idolatria... Mexico. Francisco Salbago. AQUINO CORTeS Y CEDEnnO, Geronymo Thomas de (1765): Arte, vocabulario y confessionario en el idioma mexicano: como se usa el en Obispado de Guadalajara. Puebla de los angeles (Mexico). Imprenta del Colegio Real de San Ignacio de Puebla de los angeles. ARENAS, Pedro de (1611): Vocabulario manual de las lenguas castellana y mexicana. Mexico. Henrico Martinez. BAUTISTA, (Fray) Juan (1600): Advertencias para los confessores de los naturales... (2 volumenes). Tlatilulco - Convento de Santiago de Tlatilulco. M. Ocharte. BAUTISTA, (Fray) Juan (1600): Huehuetlahtolli: que contiene las platicas... Tlatilulco. Convento de Santiago de Tlatilulco. BAUTISTA, (Fray) Juan (1606): A Iesu Christo S.N. ofrece este sermonario en lengua mexicana. Mexico. Casa de Diego Lopez Davalos. CARCHI, Horacio (1645): Arte de la lengua mexicana con la declaracion de los adverbios della. Mexico. Juan Ruyz. Doctirna christiana en lengua espannola y mexicana: hecha por los religiosos de la Orden de Santiago (1548). Mexico. Casa de Juan Pablos. GALDO GUZMaN, (Fray) Diego de (1642): Arte mexicano. Mexico. Viuda de Bernardo Calderon. GANTE, (Fray) Pedro (1553): Doctrina Christiana en lengua mexicana. Mexico. Casa de Juan Pablos. GAONA, (Fray) Juan de (1582): Colloquios de la paz y tranquilidad christiana, en lengua mexicana. Mexico. Casa de Juan Plablos. GARCiA ICAZBALCETA, Joaquin (1889): Nueva coleccion de documentos para la historia de Mexico (2 volumenes). Mexico. Antigua Libreria de Andrade y Morales, Sucesores, Tomo I (Codice Franciscano, siglo XVI). GUERRA, (Fray) Juan (1692): Arte de la lengua mexicana: que fue usual entre los indios del Obispado de Guadalajara y de parte de los de Durango y Michoacan. Guadalajara. Viuda de Francisco Rodriguez Lupericio. GUERRA, (Fray) Juan (1900): Arte de la lengua mexicana: que fue usual entre los indios del Obispado de Guadalajara y de parte de los de Durango y Michoacan. Guadalajara. Alberto Santoscoy. LASSO DE LA VEGA, Luis (1649): Huei tlamahvizoltica omonexiti in Ilhuicac Tlatoca Cichuapilli... Mexico. Imprenta Iuan Ruyz. LEoN, (Fray) Martin de (1611): Camino del cielo en lengua mexicana... Mexico. Imprenta de Diego Lopez Davalos. MIJANGOS, Fray Juan de (1607): Espejo divino en lengua mexicana en que pueden verse los Padres y tomar documento para acercar a adoptrinar bien a sus hijos, y aficionallos a las virtudes. Mexico. Imprenta de Diego Lopez Davalos. MOLINA, (Fray) Alonso de (1555): Aqui comienza un vocubalario en la lengua castellana y mexicana. Mexico. Casa de Juan Pablos. MOLINA, (Fray) Alonso de (1565): Confessionario breve en lengua mexicana y castellana. Mexico. Casa de Antonio de Spinosa. MOLINA, (Fray) Alonso de (1565): Confessionario Mayor en lengua mexicana y castellana. Mexico. Casa de Antonio de Spinosa. MOLINA, (Fray) Alonso de (1571): Arte de la lengua mexicana y castellana. Mexico. Casa de Pedro Ocharte. MOLINA, (Fray) Alonso de (1571): Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellana. Mexico. Casa de Antonio de Spinosa. OLMOS, (Fray) Ignacio de (1547): Arte de la lengua mexicana. [S.l.]. [S.n.]. PAREDES, Ignacio de (1759): Promptuario manual mexicano. Mexico. Imprenta de la Biblioteca Mexicana. PeREZ, (Fray) Manuel (1713): Arte del idioma mexicano. Mexico. Francisco Rivera Calderon. PeREZ, (Fray) Manuel (1713): Farol indiano y guia de curas de indios... Mexico. Francisco Rivera Calderon. RINCoN, Antonio del (1595): Arte mexicana. Casa de Pedro Balli. RIPALDA, Geronymo de (1758): Catecismo mexicano que contiene toda la doctrina christiana... Mexico. Imprenta de la Biblioteca Mexicana. SAAVEDRA, (Fray) Marcos de (1746): Confessionario breve activo y pasivo en lengua mexicana... Mexico. Imprenta Real del Superior Gobierno, del Nuevo Rezado, de Donna Maria de Rivera. SAENZ DE LA PEnnA, Andres (1642): Manual de los Santos Sacramentos...= Mexico. Francisco Robledo. SAHAGuN, (Fray) Bernardino de (1583): Psalmodia Christiana y Sermonario de los Sanctos del Anno, en lengua mexicana. Mexico. Con licencia en Casa de Pedro Ocharte. SANDOVAL, Rafael (1888): Arte de la lengua mexicana. Ramon Garcia Raya. TAPIA CENTENO, Carlos de (1753): Arte novissima de lengua mexicana... Mexico. Viuda de Joseph Bernardo de Hogal. VaZQUEZ GATELU, Antonio (1689): Arte de Lengua Mexicana. [S.l.]. Fernandez de Leon VETANCOURT, (Fray) Agustin (1673): Arte de lengua mexicana... Mexico. Francisco Rodriguez Lupericio. From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Wed May 11 13:28:48 2005 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 08:28:48 -0500 Subject: Molina Confessionario In-Reply-To: <1115790960.42819e708ce28@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: At 12:56 AM 5/11/2005, campbel at indiana.edu wrote: > I include the information that I retrieved today, no worse for the wear (a >bit dusty since it has lain up in the attic of my hard disk for all this >time). > The price of the CD in 2000 was 30,000 pesetas. Unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge, the CD is now out of print. Miguel Leon-Portilla gave me a copy some time ago, and then last year told me that it was no longer available. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From dfrye at UMICH.EDU Wed May 11 15:30:02 2005 From: dfrye at UMICH.EDU (Frye, David) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:30:02 -0400 Subject: Molina Confessionario Message-ID: The University of Michigan library has a copy of this CD. I don't know what the policy is for interlibrary loan of materials on CD, but at least it is available publicly over here. (And, by the way, Joe DID send this info out to the list some years ago -- that was how I found out about it and passed the news on to our librarian.) Title Obras clásicas sobre la lengua Náhuatl. [electronic resource] [Ascensión Hernández de León-Portilla (comp.)]. Published Madrid : Fundación Histórica Tavera : Digibis, c1998. Format Electronic Resource Computer File System Req'ts. System requirements: IBM PC or compatible; MS-DOS 6.0; Windows 3.1 or higher; 8 MB RAM (16 recommended); 10 MB free hard disk space; VGA monitor; CD-ROM drive. Publisher No. M-35370-1998 Series Colección Clásicos tavera. Serie IX. Fuentes lingüísticas indígenas, v. 8. Summary Texts originally issued between 1547 and 1900. Subject-Lib. Cong. Nahuatl language -- Early works to 1800 -- Databases. Nahuatl language -- Databases. Mexico -- Languages -- History -- Early works to 1800 -- Databases. Mexico -- Languages -- History -- Databases. ISBN 8489763275 Location Hatcher Graduate - Graduate Library Mixed Media | CD-ROM GL52 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Frye Latin American & Caribbean Studies - LACS International Institute, University of Michigan 2607 School of Social Work Bldg Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1106 tel (734) 647 0844 - fax (734) 615-8880 From dacosentino at EARTHLINK.NET Thu May 12 21:35:48 2005 From: dacosentino at EARTHLINK.NET (Delia Cosentino) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 16:35:48 -0500 Subject: tepi In-Reply-To: <180D418BCB847A49986CFB7C544B6EC3C8D5C4@WSDPD-XC01.wsdpd.wsdad.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: Thanks, and just a follow up: is this related to tepilzin at all, i.e. suggesting descent or an offspring, or does it have totally separate linguistic origins? Also, how might people read the name glyph of the stylized stream of water grasped by a hand? Something like...(apologies in advance)...Al(t)mapitchtli? -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Swanton, M. Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 2:00 PM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: tepi "tepi" means little, generally its appears with either the -tzin or -ton diminutive suffix. -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Delia Cosentino Sent: zaterdag 7 mei 2005 20:46 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: tepi I am working with an AGN document involving a woman with the surname 'tepi', the meaning of which I am trying to parse (Is the 'pi' of pic, to pluck? Any other suggestions?). I'm wondering if there is any way that 'tepi' could jibe with a name glyph made up of a stylized stream of water grasped by a hand, which is found in an associated image of a woman? From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Thu May 12 23:18:10 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:18:10 -0500 Subject: tepi In-Reply-To: <000001c5573a$93650cc0$6501a8c0@Delia> Message-ID: "tepiltzin" (note the -tzin) falls apart in different way from "tepi" (which doesn't fall apart at all). "tepi" is a morpheme, so it has no sub-parts, no constituents. On the occe maitl, "tepiltzin": te pil(li) tzin someone's child endearing diminutive suffix With regard to your "a(l(t))-mapitchtli", I doubt that "a:(tl)" combines with the rest of it in its rarer "al-" form, so it would probably show up as "a-". In the most common Nahuatl spelling the /ch/ phoneme is spelled "ch" (although the unitary sound of /ch/ *does* contain a kind of "t"). With the leading element "cem-", Molina gives both "cemmapichtli" and "cemmapictli": cemmapichtli haze o haz de cosas menudas; manojo, o hace de cosas menudas cemmapictli ; pun~o o pun~ado assi de cosas largas; como de pajas o yeruas cem ma:(itl) pi:qui [patientive noun derivation] one, complete hand squeeze (The "ch" form is a variant which is seen frequently in patientive nouns.) Joe Quoting Delia Cosentino : > Thanks, and just a follow up: is this related to tepilzin at all, i.e. > suggesting descent or an offspring, or does it have totally separate > linguistic origins? > Also, how might people read the name glyph of the stylized stream of water > grasped by a hand? Something like...(apologies in > advance)...Al(t)mapitchtli? > > From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU Fri May 13 03:09:00 2005 From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:09:00 -0600 Subject: Dating Spelling Conventions Message-ID: I'm working on a Tlaxcalan manuscript written around A.D. 1600. The scribe follows the spelling teuctli, but a later editorial hand (added after some degradation of the paper had occurred) uses the spelling teuhtli. Is anything known about when that spelling (teuhtli) arose or where? I'm wondering whether this spelling difference can be used to say anything about how much later the editor made his additions or if he may have been trained in a different region. Richley From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Fri May 13 03:23:11 2005 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 20:23:11 -0700 Subject: tepi In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: there's a actress, Rachel Ticotin, that has starred in many movies since her career started, I was just wondering what her last name means, so far I haven't found anything resembling 'tico'tin..... ACGARCIA --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Sun May 15 00:14:51 2005 From: jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9?= Rabasa) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 17:14:51 -0700 Subject: ordinal numbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Listeros: I am working on the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and found sections of the first folio incomprehensible. Accorfing to Kirchhoff's transcription: chacui ---chini tanquehue xihuiqui motlatzin ximotlali ypan ycpalli --- chitao xihuiqui motlatzin ximotlali ypan ycpalli (xi-huica mo-tlatzin xi-motlali y-pan ycpalli: come uncle sit on the seat) I don't know (like Kirchhoff) what to make out of "chacui chini tanquehue" and the "chitao" at the end. Likewise with chacui qieaha tanquehe chacui tachi tanquehue Chontana dios chati (dios is easy enough) etc. I am wondering if these phrases are sounds that convey cries for gathering. I would appreciate any light on these. Jose Rabasa From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Tue May 17 01:46:49 2005 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:46:49 -0400 Subject: tepi In-Reply-To: <1115939890.4283e4326bb95@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I think the name Delia was inquiring about is A:cama:pi:chtli. Ma:pi:ch-tli means 'fist.' A:ca-tl is reed. Rather than representing water, the water glyph emerging from a fist would be a phonetic hint that the name in question begins with the vowel/syllable a:. On May 12, 2005, at 7:18 PM, campbel at INDIANA.EDU wrote: > "tepiltzin" (note the -tzin) falls apart in different way from > "tepi" (which > doesn't fall apart at all). "tepi" is a morpheme, so it has no > sub-parts, no > constituents. On the occe maitl, "tepiltzin": > > te pil(li) tzin > someone's child endearing diminutive suffix > > With regard to your "a(l(t))-mapitchtli", I doubt that "a:(tl)" > combines with > the rest of it in its rarer "al-" form, so it would probably show up > as "a-". > In the most common Nahuatl spelling the /ch/ phoneme is spelled "ch" > (although > the unitary sound of /ch/ *does* contain a kind of "t"). With the > leading > element "cem-", Molina gives both "cemmapichtli" and "cemmapictli": > > cemmapichtli haze o haz de cosas menudas; manojo, o hace de cosas > menudas > > cemmapictli ; pun~o o pun~ado assi > de cosas > largas; como de pajas o yeruas > > cem ma:(itl) pi:qui [patientive noun > derivation] > one, complete hand squeeze > > (The "ch" form is a variant which is seen frequently in patientive > nouns.) > > Joe > > > Quoting Delia Cosentino : > >> Thanks, and just a follow up: is this related to tepilzin at all, i.e. >> suggesting descent or an offspring, or does it have totally separate >> linguistic origins? >> Also, how might people read the name glyph of the stylized stream of >> water >> grasped by a hand? Something like...(apologies in >> advance)...Al(t)mapitchtli? >> >> > From mwswanton at YAHOO.COM Tue May 17 20:55:16 2005 From: mwswanton at YAHOO.COM (Michael Swanton) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 13:55:16 -0700 Subject: ordinal numbers In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The curious text on the first folio of the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca is bilingual: Nahuatl-Popoloca. The parts you found incomprehensible are the Popoloca parts. Actually, the second language on this page was correctly identified by Walter Lehmann in the 1920s. It was later explored further by Preuss & Mengin in their 1938 edition of the HTCh. Su servidor published a short, speculative article on this text a couple years ago, which has an online accessible version (http://www.colmich.edu.mx/relaciones/86/pdf/Michael%20W.%20Swanton.pdf). The references should be there. I hope this is of some help. regards, Mike Swanton --- Jos� Rabasa wrote: > Dear Listeros: > > I am working on the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and > found sections of > the first folio incomprehensible. Accorfing to > Kirchhoff's > transcription: > > chacui ---chini tanquehue xihuiqui motlatzin > ximotlali ypan ycpalli --- chitao > > xihuiqui motlatzin ximotlali ypan ycpalli (xi-huica > mo-tlatzin > xi-motlali y-pan ycpalli: come uncle sit on the > seat) > > I don't know (like Kirchhoff) what to make out of > "chacui chini > tanquehue" and the "chitao" at the end. Likewise > with > > chacui qieaha tanquehe > > chacui tachi tanquehue > > > Chontana dios chati (dios is easy enough) etc. > > I am wondering if these phrases are sounds that > convey cries for gathering. > > I would appreciate any light on these. > > Jose Rabasa > Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/ From jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Tue May 17 22:18:12 2005 From: jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Rabasa?=) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:18:12 -0700 Subject: ordinal numbers In-Reply-To: <20050517205516.69204.qmail@web31711.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Many thanks, for the references. I will look up your article. Jose >The curious text on the first folio of the Historia >Tolteca-Chichimeca is bilingual: Nahuatl-Popoloca. The >parts you found incomprehensible are the Popoloca >parts. > >Actually, the second language on this page was >correctly identified by Walter Lehmann in the 1920s. >It was later explored further by Preuss & Mengin in >their 1938 edition of the HTCh. Su servidor published >a short, speculative article on this text a couple >years ago, which has an online accessible version >(http://www.colmich.edu.mx/relaciones/86/pdf/Michael%20W.%20Swanton.pdf). >The references should be there. I hope this is of some >help. > >regards, >Mike Swanton > > >--- JosÈ Rabasa wrote: >> Dear Listeros: >> >> I am working on the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and >> found sections of >> the first folio incomprehensible. Accorfing to >> Kirchhoff's >> transcription: >> >> chacui ---chini tanquehue xihuiqui motlatzin >> ximotlali ypan ycpalli --- chitao >> >> xihuiqui motlatzin ximotlali ypan ycpalli (xi-huica >> mo-tlatzin >> xi-motlali y-pan ycpalli: come uncle sit on the >> seat) >> >> I don't know (like Kirchhoff) what to make out of >> "chacui chini >> tanquehue" and the "chitao" at the end. Likewise >> with >> >> chacui qieaha tanquehe >> >> chacui tachi tanquehue >> >> >> Chontana dios chati (dios is easy enough) etc. >> >> I am wondering if these phrases are sounds that >> convey cries for gathering. >> >> I would appreciate any light on these. >> >> Jose Rabasa >> > > > >Discover Yahoo! >Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! >http://discover.yahoo.com/ From institute at CSUMB.EDU Wed May 18 22:06:31 2005 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:06:31 -0700 Subject: Aztec Nahua Gender In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear All, My student, Esmeralda Cruz, is currently conducting a comparative study on Aztec gender roles in both the pre-Columbian and modern periods. My suggestion to her is to look at the work of Timothy Knab on the Sierra de Puebla. Any suggestions for literatures or studies concerning Nahua/Aztec gender roles through time? Thank You, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760; Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu; http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" -Albert Einstein Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. -- This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus protection at CSUMB, visit: http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ Email Scams & Phishing are on the rise at CSUMB. To learn more about email scams and Phishing, visit: http://it.csumb.edu/news/article.php?id=286 From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu May 19 01:01:54 2005 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:01:54 -0400 Subject: Aztec Nahua Gender In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > My suggestion to her is to look at the work of Timothy Knab on the > Sierra de Puebla. My suggestion is to look elsewhere. One place would be the stories of doña Luz jiménez, edited by Fernando Horcasitas. One collection is essentially her autobiography, of which there is a Nahuatl/English version published by the U. of Oklahoma Press under the title Life and Death in Milpa Alta. The other collection is Nahuatl/Spanish. Obviously one should look at the multi-authored volume Indian Women of Early Mexico. From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Thu May 19 06:11:56 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 01:11:56 -0500 Subject: Nahuatlahtos are spoiled In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There's a cracker barrel on the campus of Indiana University. Or at least there has been one for the last few years. That's where Michael, Pablo, Bill 'n' me get together for two enjoyable hours some evening every week. We don't look at the calendar to see what the university schedule is -- if everyone is in town and ambulatory, we meet. We read Nahuatl text like the Psalmodia Cristiana and the Florentine Codex (mainly Books 12 and 11), translating and putting the word forms through our language rationalizing machines, taking detours to talk about the treatment of Nahuatl in Andrews' grammar, the activity on Nahuat-l, modern Nahuatl variation, and enlightening things about the Miami language, etc. Last night we talked a bit about the fact that Nahuatlahtos are spoiled. We Nahuatlahtos have the "advantage" of working with a language that (1) is regular in its word grammar, but more importantly, (2) does not muddy up the shape of the morphemes at their boundaries (as many languages) do. We look at a word and it falls apart into its constituent morphemes before our eyes. I say this because most of us look at documents and aren't out there sitting on a log and hearing words fall apart before our ears. We expect regularity. But since we are accustomed to rationalizing some morpheme shapes that do vary with phonetic-based explanations (e.g., quiza vs. quixtia), we panic when faced with variations like cotoni and cotoctli or patlahua and patlactic. People who look at languages like English, French, Spanish, etc., are not so panicked -- they know that they have to carry the tool (or label) of *irregular* in their toolkit. Consider Spanish: hag-o pon-go dig-o hac-e pon-e dic-e hac-emos pon-emos dec-imos hech-o puest-o dich-o When we look at these varying stems, we hardly see the irregularity -- they don't impede our understanding of a discourse because we don't expect to be spoiled by regularity. But, as Michael remarked, Nahuatl is partly to blame -- it lulls us into an expectation of further regularity. SO, naturally I made a list of some of the variation in patientive nouns. My notation should not be misunderstood to imply that a process is involved. ".k>ch" merely means that /k/ occurs in the finite verb forms, but /ch/ occurs in some patientive forms. Obviously, my interest is taxonomic -- aimed at the practical goal of improving the ease of reading. Explanation is either over the horizon or not available. I include a short list of examples here and I will send a larger list in separate e-mails. Saludos, Joe ************************** *.k>ch*** cemmapichtli. hace o haz de cosas menudas. ch>. 55m-10 cemmapichtontli. hacezillo peque¤o. ch>. 55m-10 *.n>ch*** cacalachtic. like a pottery rattle. ch>. b.10 f.4 cacalachtli. caxcauel de barro. ch>. 71m2-2 chientlaxcaltotopochtli. toasted chia tortillas. ch>. b.10 f.9 cuauhcacalachtli. pestillo o cerradura de palo. ch>. 55m-16 cuecueyochtli. ‡arcillo. ch>. 55m-4 etotopochtli. toasted bean. ch>. b.10 f.4 *.n>k*** acoyoctli. sangradera de agua cogida; socarena del agua. k>. 55m-18 altepetenancoyoctli. portillo de muro. k>. 55m-16 altepetenanxitictli. portillo de muro. k>. 55m-16 cacayactic. sparce. k>. b.10 f.6 cahcayactic. fragmented. k>. b.11 f.25 chachapactic. drooping. k>. b.11 f.21 chapactic. ; drooping; hanging. k>. b.11 f.11 *.n>x*** chilpalaxtli. spoiled chili. x>. b.10 f.4 cuachpalaxtli. spoiled large cotton cape, rotton large cotton cape. x>. b.10 f.4 *.n>z*** yamazpahtic. extremely soft. z>. b.10 f.7 yamaztia. ablandarse alguna cosa. z>. 71m1- 1 yamaztic. soft. z>. b.10 f.6 *.t>ch*** cenmachtli , tla-. something that is completely known. ch>. b.11 f.14 iximach , itla-. his acquaintance. ch>. b.6 f.5 tlalochcuepa =nino. huir atras. ch>. 55m-11 xapochhuia =ninotla. caer en hoyo peque¤o. ch>. 71m1-4 xapochtic. agujero. ch>. 71m1-1 *.w>ch*** cuapatlachiuhqui. having a broad head. ch>. b.11 f.7 cuitlapatlachtic. having a broad back; wide-bellied. ch>. b.11 f.10 cuitlapilpatlach. flat-tailed. ch>. b.11 f.7 olpatlachtli. wide piece of rubber. ch>. b.10 f.5 *.w>k*** acanactli. narrow river. k>. b.11 f.24 acapitzac , i-. his reed stalk. k>. b.8 f.2 acapitzactli. carrizo especie de ca¤a. k>. 55m-3 alacpatic. very slippery. k>. b.11 f.8 alactic. cosa deleznable, assi como anguilla, pan de xabon mojado, o flema. &c; deleznable cosa como anguilla; xabon mojado; &c. k>. 71m2-1 alactic. smooth, slick. k>. b.11 f.6 catzactic. cosa suzia; suzia cosa; suzio por no estar lauado. k>. 71m2-2 catzactic. dark. k>. b.11 f.21 chicactic. cosa rezia y fuerte, o persona anciana; rezia cosa. k>. 71m2-4 chicactic. robust; strong; sturdy. k>. b.4 f.8 melactic. cosa derecha y luenga. k>. 71m2-9 pochectic. ahumada cosa; ahumada cosa assi. k>. 55m-00 pochectic. blackish; smoky colored; smoky. k>. b.11 f.10 *.w>z*** alaztic. ; deleznable cosa como anguilla; xabon mojado; &c. z>. 71m2-1 alaztic. sleek; slick; smooth. z>. b.11 f.1 melaztic. cosa derecha y luenga. z>. 71m2-10 ayopahuaxtli. cooked gourd. x>. b.10 f.5 cactlaxtli =tla. descalzada persona, o desherrada bestia. x>. 71m2-20 chilpahuaxtli. chili which is cooked in an olla. x>. b.10 f.4 From ced44 at CAM.AC.UK Thu May 19 08:21:24 2005 From: ced44 at CAM.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:21:24 +0100 Subject: Aztec Nahua Gender Message-ID: I am currently converting my doctorate on pre-conquest Aztec gender roles into a book and, if you would like to contact me directly off the list, then I would be happy to try and give advice on specific aspects if your student would find that helpful. I also have a large bibliography on pre-conquest gender which I would be happy to send directly if you would like. (I don't know what level your student is working at.) A few selected studies, however, would be: Anna-Britta Hellbom, La participacion cultural de las mujeres: Indias y Mestizas en el México precortesiano y postrevolucionario (Stockholm, 1967). Cecelia F. Klein (ed.), Gender in Pre-Hispanic America (Dumbarton Oaks, 2001). Sharisse D. McCafferty, and Geoffrey D. McCafferty, 'The Metamorphosis of Xochiquetzal: A Window on Womanhood in Pre- and Post-Conquest Mexico', in T. Sweely (ed)., Manifesting Power: Gender and the Interpretation of Power in Archaeology (London, 1999), pp.103-25. María J. Rodríguez-Shadow, La mujer azteca (Toluca, 1991). Alan R. Sandstrom, Corn Is Our Blood: Culture and Ethnic Identity in a Contemporary Aztec Indian Village (Norman, 1991). Susan Schroeder, Stephanie Wood, and Robert Haskett (eds.), Indian Women of Early Mexico: Identity, Ethnicity, and Gender Differentiation (Norman, 1997). Yours, Caroline Dodds ----- Dr. Caroline Dodds Junior Research Fellow Sidney Sussex College Cambridge CB2 3HU Tel: 01223 330867 ced44 at cam.ac.uk From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Thu May 19 16:14:47 2005 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:14:47 -0500 Subject: Aztec Nahua Gender In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 05:06 PM 5/18/2005, you wrote: > My student, Esmeralda Cruz, is currently conducting a comparative > study on Aztec gender roles in both the pre-Columbian and modern > periods. My suggestion to her is to look at the work of Timothy Knab on > the Sierra de Puebla. Any suggestions for >literatures or studies concerning Nahua/Aztec gender roles through time? Susan Kellogg's book _Law and the Transformation of Aztec Culture_ U Oklahoma press, deals quite heavily with women before and after the conquest. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Thu May 19 20:19:40 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:19:40 -0500 Subject: Nahuatlahtos are spoiled list 1 In-Reply-To: <1115939890.4283e4326bb95@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Longer list, part 1 *.k>ch*** cemmapichtli. . ch>. b.11 f.18 cemmapichtli. hace o haz de cosas menudas. ch>. 55m-10 cemmapichtontli. hacezillo peque¤o. ch>. 55m-10 *.m>k*** huihuitoctontli. . k>. 71m2-27 huihuitoctontli , ti-. . k>. b.6 f.10 *.n>c*** tepopozoctli. . c>. 71m2-17 tepozoctli. piedra liuiana llena de agujeros peque¤os. c>. 71m2-17 *.n>ch*** cacalachtic. like a pottery rattle. ch>. b.10 f.4 cacalachtli. caxcauel de barro. ch>. 71m2-2 chientlaxcaltotopochtli. toasted chia tortillas. ch>. b.10 f.9 cuauhcacalachtli. pestillo o cerradura de palo. ch>. 55m-16 cuecueyochtli. ‡arcillo. ch>. 55m-4 etotopochtli. toasted bean. ch>. b.10 f.4 ichtilmacacalachtli. maguey fiber cape which sounds like a pottery rattle. ch>. b.10 f.4 [i]xcaltotopochtli , tla-. biscuit. ch>. b.8 f.4 nacazchichipichtic. having droplet shaped ears. ch>. b.11 f.1 nacazchichipichton. having droplet-shaped ears. ch>. b.11 f.1 nacazchihchipichtic. having droplet-shaped ears. ch>. b.11 f.1 tlecocomochtli. . ch>. b.12 f.5 totopochhuacqui. empedernido assi. ch>. 55m-7 totopochhuaqui. empedernecerse o pararse duro el pan o cosa assi. ch>. 55m-7 totopochtic. empedernido assi. ch>. 55m-7 totopochtli. toasted; toasted tortilla. ch>. b.10 f.4 totopochtzintli. dried tortilla. ch>. b.9 f.2 *.n>k*** acoyoctli. sangradera de agua cogida; socarena del agua. k>. 55m-18 altepetenancoyoctli. portillo de muro. k>. 55m-16 altepetenanxitictli. portillo de muro. k>. 55m-16 altepetepancoyoctli. portillo de muro. k>. 55m-16 atlacoyoctli. sumidero de agua. <--coyo:ni--l2 .n>k>. 71m1-20 atotomoctli. ola o onda de agua. k>. 55m- 15 axittotomoctli. ampolla tal. k>. 71m1-2 ayopipitzictic. . k>. b.11 f.12 cacalachuac , o-. . k>. b.2 f.2 cacayactic. sparce. k>. b.10 f.6 cahcayactic. fragmented. k>. b.11 f.25 calcuitlacoyoctli. postigo puerta tras casa. k>. 55m-16 chachapacaticac. . k>. b.11 f.11 chachapactic. drooping. k>. b.11 f.21 chapactic. ; drooping; hanging. k>. b.11 f.11 chapactontli. ; a little drooping. k>. b.11 f.13 chichipictli. gota de cosa liquida. k>. 71m2-4 chochopoc. . k>. b.10 f.2 chochopoctli. . k>. b.10 f.1 cioyocopictic. descolorido assi. k>. 55m-5 ciyocopictic. blanquezino assi. k>. 55m-2 cocotoctic. cortada cosa, s, no entera; cosa quebrada o despedazada assi. k>. 71m1-5 cocotoctli. cortada cosa, s, no entera; cosa quebrada o despedazada assi. k>. 71m1-5 cohcotoc. . k>. b.10 f.2 cohcoyoctic. having holes. k>. b.10 f.6 cotoc coatl. biuora otra pestilencial y de gran pon‡o¤a. k>. 71m1-4 cotoctic. cosa que le falta algo o algun pedazo. k>. 71m2-4 cotoctli. mendrugo. k>. 55m-13 cotoctontli =tla. parte peque¤a. k>. 71m1-16 coyocco , itla-. its hole. k>. b.5 f.3 coyocco , tla-. in a hole; in holes; in burrows. k>. b.11 f.2 coyocpol. perforated. k>. b.11 f.25 coyoctempan , itla-. . k>. b.6 f.19 coyoctic. aguiero, o cosa agujerada o horadada; agujero. k>. 71m1-1 coyoctlaminaloyan =tla. saetera o tronera. k>. 71m1-19 coyoctlequiquiztlaxoyan =tla. saetera o tronera. k>. 71m1-19 coyoctli , tla-. hole. k>. b.11 f.26 coyoctli =tla. aguiero, o cosa agujerada o horadada; agujero; agujero o almario; o alhacena; o horado; sumidero; o almario; hoyo o hoya; sumidero de agua. k>. 71m1-1 coyoctontli =tla. agujero peque¤o; hoyuelo hoyo peque¤o. k>. 71m2-20 coyoctontli. small hole. k>. b.10 f.7 cuacacayactli. cabezpelado. k>. 71m1-4 cuanmoloctli. eagle down. k>. b.2 f.4 cuanmolocyo. having eagle down. k>. b.2 f.4 cuatepitzic. having a broken head. k>. b.4 f.9 cuatexamac. having a broken head. k>. b.4 f.9 cuatotomoctli. head scabies. k>. b.10 f.8 cuauhcocotoctli. pedazos de madera. k>. 71m2-15 cuauhcoyoctli. agujero hecho en madero. k>. 71m1-1 cuecueyoctli. ‡arcillo delas orejas. k>. 71m2- 5 cuexcochcoyoc. . k>. b.10 f.1 huexochachapactli. mata grande de mimbrera. k>. 71m2-27 huexochapactli. mata grande de mimbrera. k>. 71m2-27 huihuiyocpol. quivering person. k>. b.11 f.21 huiyoctic. quivering. k>. b.10 f.7 ihtipepeyocyo. . k>. b.9 f.4 ipotocquiza. vaprosa cosa que echa baho o vapor. k>. 71m1-20 ipotocyo. vaprosa cosa que echa baho o vapor. k>. 71m1-20 itipepeyocyo. . k>. b.9 f.5 ixcalcotoctli =tla. ‡atico o peda‡o de pan. k>. 71m1-6 ixcallapactli =tla. mendrugo; ‡atico o peda‡o de pan. k>. 71m1-15 ixcocoyoc. el que tiene muy hundidas las cuencas delos ojos. k>. 71m2-8 ixcuepoctic. tuerto de vn ojo. k>. 71m2-8 ixpeyoctli. flutter of an eyelid. k>. b.12 f.2 ixtecocoyoctli. la cuenca del ojo muy hundida. k>. 71m2-8 ixyoyomocpol. cara alegre del que esta regozijado; hombre de cara alegre y muy regozijada. k>. 71m1-4 ixyoyomoctiliztli. gesto desta manera. k>. 55m-10 ixyoyomoctiliztli ==onixyoyomon sic. gestos o visajes. k>. 71m2-8 macacapactli. casta¤etas. k>. 71m1-5 macapactli. casta¤eta. k>. 71m1-5 macotoctic. manco que tiene cortada la mano. k>. 71m1-14 macpalcocoyoc. . k>. b.10 f.3 macpalcocoyocpol. . k>. b.10 f.3 metzcotoctic. coxo de pierna quebrada. k>. 71m1-6 moloctic. lana mollida o cosa semejante. k>. 71m2- 10 momolochuia =nitla=onitlamomolochui. menear, o enturbiar el agua o cosa semejante. k>. 71m2-10 palaxyoyopehui. el que tiene postillas de sarna. k>. 71m2-13 palaxyoyopehuiliztli. postilla de sarna. k>. 71m2-13 pepeyoctli. estampas. k>. 71m1-11 pepeyocyo. . k>. b.9 f.3 pepeyocyo , i-. . k>. b.8 f.5 pitzcoyoctic. estrecha cosa como agujero. <--coyo:ni-l2-tic .n>k>. 55m-9 pochictic. fofa cosa. k>. 55m-10 pochictic tilmatli. vestidura vellosa. k>. 55m-19 popozoctli. irritable. k>. b.10 f.3 quechcotoctic. . k>. b.5 f.1 tapalcacopichtlapactli. tejuela peda‡o de teja. k>. 55m-19 tetlapactli. pedazo de losa o de piedra. k>. 71m2-18 texaxamactli. caxcajo, o cosa semejante. k>. 71m2-19 tezoloctli. . k>. b.11 f.3 tilictic. cosa tesa y panda. k>. 71m2-19 tlacoyoctlaminaloyan. saetero o tronera. k>. 55m-18 tlacoyoctlequiquiztlaxoyan. saetero o tronera. k>. 55m-18 tlalpotoctli. baho dela tierra. k>. 71m2-21 tlancacayactic. helgado de dientes. k>. 71m2-22 tlancayactli. manta rala y no tupida. k>. 71m2-22 tlancopictic. mellado en los dientes. k>. 55m-13 tlancotoctic. desdentado de algun diente; mellado en los dientes. k>. 55m-5 tlancotoctic. toothless. k>. b.5 f.3 tlapactli. mendrugo. k>. 55m-13 tlatolchochopoc. incoherent. k>. b.10 f.2 tlatolchochopoctli. habla, o platica desbaratada y sin orden ni concierto. k>. 71m2-24 tlatolchohchopoc. . k>. b.10 f.1 tlaxcalcotoctli. ‡atico de pan. k>. 55m-4 tlaxcallapactli. mendrugo; ‡atico de pan. k>. 55m-13 tlaxcalyamactli. mollete pan muelle. k>. 55m-14 tlaxcalyamactli [scribal error: ??error: in 1880: tlaxcalyamacti for tlaxcalyamactli: 71m1]. mollete pan muelle. k>. 71m1-15 tlecocomoctli. hoguera llamas de huego. k>. 55m-11 tlecomoctli. llama de fuego. k>. 71m1-14 tlequiquiztlacoyoctli. tronera. k>. 71m1-20 tlilchapactli. borron que cae enla escriptura. k>. 55m-2 tomapitzictli. bruised tomato. k>. b.10 f.4 tzatzayactic. resquebrajado. k>. 55m-17 tzatzayactic. serrated. k>. b.11 f.19 tzicuicpatic. exceedingly agile. k>. b.11 f.2 tzicuictic. diligentissimo y presto en lo que haze. k>. 71m1-8 tzicuictic , ti-. you are swift. k>. b.6 f.10 tzicuictic. active; agile; bouncy; fleet. k>. b.11 f.11 tzicuictictiez , ti-. . k>. b.6 f.10 tzicuictontli. active and small. k>. b.11 f.11 tzilictic. claro en sonido. k>. 55m-3 tzitzicuictic. desembuelto assi; diligentissimo y presto en lo que haze. k>. 55m-5 tzitzilictic. . k>. b.10 f.5 tzomocchihua =nitla. esfor‡arse para algo. k>. 71m1-11 tzomocchihua =nitla=onitlatzomocchiuh. hazer algo con mucho trabajo sacando fuerzas de flaqueza. k>. 71m2-26 tzomocoa , mo-. he works energetically, he applies effort. k>. b.10 f.1 tzomocoa =nino. esfor‡arse para algo. k>. 55m-9 tzomocoani , mo-. one who is active, one who makes an effort. k>. b.10 f.1 tzomocoani =mo. esfor‡ado assi. k>. 55m-9 tzomocoliztli =ne. el acto de forcejar reziamente; esfuer‡o en esta manera. k>. 71m2-12 tzomocquiza =ni. caminar con peligro o temor. k>. 55m-2 tzomocquiza =ni=onitzomoquiz. escaparse con mucho trabajo y peligro, delos lugares donde andan salteadores. o cosarios. k>. 71m2-26 tzomoctic. . k>. b.10 f.1 tzomoctic. cosa rota y rasgada, o persona solicita y diligente, rezia y fuerte. k>. 71m2-26 tzomocyeyecoa =nitla. esfor‡arse para algo. k>. 71m1-11 tzomocyeyecoa =nitla=onitlatzomocyeyeco. esforzarse aprouar si podraconel trabajo de alguna obra. k>. 71m2-26 tzotlactic. glistening. k>. b.11 f.7 tzotlactontli. glistening and small. k>. b.11 f.8 tzotzotlactic. . k>. b.11 f.19 yacacotoctic. desnarigado. k>. 55m-5 yacacotoctiliztli. act of cutting off a nose. k>. b.10 f.8 yacacotocyotl. . k>. b.10 f.8 yacahuiyocpol. having a quivering nose. k>. b.11 f.21 yamactic. cosa blanda, y muelle. k>. 71m2-5 yamactontli. cosa blandilla assi; muella cosa vn poco. k>. 71m2-5 yolpopozoctic. excitable. k>. b.10 f.3 yoyomoctli huel, toyoyomoc. los ri¤ones. k>. 71m2- 7 zoloctic. . k>. b.11 f.3 zozolocchiuhqui. flautero que las haze. k>. 55m-9 zozolocpitzqui. flautero el que las ta¤e. k>. 55m-9 zozoloctli. flauta. k>. 55m-9 *.n>x*** chilpalaxtli. spoiled chili. x>. b.10 f.4 cuachpalaxtli. spoiled large cotton cape, rotton large cotton cape. x>. b.10 f.4 cualaxtli. coraje. x>. 55m-3 epalaxtli. spoiled bean, rotten bean. x>. b.10 f.4 huauhpalaxtli. spoiled amaranth seed. x>. b.10 f.4 huiteccapalaxtli =te. llaga de herida de espada o de palo. x>. 71m1-14 ihhuipalaxtli. damaged feather. x>. b.10 f.4 o[ya]lpalaxtli , tla-. spoiled maize; spoiled maize grain. x>. b.10 f.4 palaxtli. abscesses; abscess; suppuration. x>. b.11 f.15 palaxyopehuiliztli. postilla de sarna. x>. 55m-16 papayaxihui , tla-. it goes breaking up. x>. b.11 f.26 papayaxoani , tla-. he customarily breaks something into pieces. x>. b.10 f.2 papayaxolli , tla-. something broken up. x>. b.10 f.4 papayaxoloni , tla-. pulverizer. x>. b.10 f.6 papayaxtic. broken up; broken; coarsely ground. x>. b.11 f.24 papayaxtli. broken. x>. b.10 f.4 timallo palaxtli. llaga con materia. x>. 71m1-14 tomapalaxtli. spoiled tomato. x>. b.10 f.4 *.n>z*** yamazpahtic. extremely soft. z>. b.10 f.7 yamazpatic. very soft. z>. b.10 f.6 yamaztia. ablandarse alguna cosa. z>. 71m1- 1 yamaztia =ni=oniyamaxtiz. ablandarse. z>. 71m2-5 yamaztic. ; muelle cosa blanda. z>. 71m2-5 yamaztic =achi. muella cosa vn poco. z>. 55m- 14 yamaztic. soft. z>. b.10 f.6 yamaztiliztli. ; blandura assi. z>. 71m2-5 yamaztontli. muella cosa vn poco. z>. 55m-14 yayamaztic. blanda cosa; cosa blanda y muelle. z>. 71m1-4 yayamaztic. very soft. z>. b.10 f.6 *.t>ch*** amoxtlatlamachilli. libro illuminado. ch>. 71m2-1 amoxtlatlatlamachilli. libro illuminado. ch>. 71m2-1 atla atlamachtilli. afligido y perseguido de otros. <--ah1-p51-mati- l2-v04-caus08=0-l1 .t>ch>. 71m2-2 atlamachtiani =ate. afligidor. ch>. 71m2-2 atlamachtiliztli =ate. aflicion o afligimiento tal; aflicion. ch>. 55m-00 atlamachtiliztli =te. aflicion o afligimiento; aflicion tal. ch>. 71m1-1 cenmachtli , tla-. something that is completely known. ch>. b.11 f.14 centlamachtia =nic=oniccentlamachti. gozar, o fruir de algo. ch>. 71m2-3 centlamachtia =nite=onitecentlamachti. glorificar, o enriquecer a otro. ch>. 71m2-3 centlamachtiani =te. glorificador, o enriquecedor. ch>. 71m2-16 centlamachtiliztli =ne. bienauenturan‡a; . ch>. 55m-2 centlamachtiliztli =te. glorificacion assi. ch>. 71m2-16 centlamachtiloya =ne. bienauenturan‡a lugar de gloria. ch>. 55m-2 centlamachtiloyan =ne. lugar de entera bienauenturanza. ch>. 71m2-11 huelmach , i-. her pleasure. ch>. b.4 f.11 ilochtia =ninotetla. correr hazer a otro. ch>. 71m1-5 iximach , itla-. his acquaintance. ch>. b.6 f.5 iximach , motla-. your acquaintance. ch>. b.6 f.1 iximachhuan , itla-. his acquaintances. ch>. b.3 f.4 iximachhuan , motla-. your acquaintances. ch>. b.6 f.4 machtli , ne-. . ch>. b.3 f.1 machtli , te-. counselor. ch>. b.10 f.2 temmachia =nitla=onitlatemmachi. esperar algo, o tener confianza de alcanzar algun beneficio, o de ser fauorecido de alguna parte. ch>. 71m2-16 tentlamachia =nite. burlar de palabras. ch>. 55m-2 tentlamachiani =te. burlador assi. ch>. 55m-2 tentlamachiliztica =te. burlando desta manera. ch>. 55m-2 tentlamachitoa =nitla. burlando dezir algo. ch>. 55m-2 tentlamachtli. burla tal. ch>. 55m-2 tlalochcuepa =nino. huir atras. ch>. 55m-11 tlalochnamiqui =cahuallopan nite. iustar. ch>. 55m-11 tlalochnamiquiliztli =cahuallopan ne. iusta assi. ch>. 55m-11 tlamachtia =nino. abundadar en riquezas. ch>. 55m-00 tlamachtiani =mo. abundoso assi. ch>. 55m-00 *.tl>ch*** tlaxapochhui =mo. caydo assi. ch>. 55m-2 tlaxapochhuiliztli =ne. cayda en hoyo peque¤o. ch>. 55m-2 xapochhui =motla. caydo assi. ch>. 71m1-4 xapochhuia =ninotla [scribal error: +mis-analysis: 55m]. caer en hoyo peque¤o. ch>. 55m-2 xapochhuia =ninotla. caer en hoyo peque¤o. ch>. 71m1-4 xapochhuia =ninotla=oninotlaxapochhui. caer en hoyo. o abarrancarse. ch>. 71m2-25 xapochhuia =nitetla=onitetlaxapochhui. hazer caer a otro en hoyo. ch>. 71m2-25 xapochhuiliztli =netla. cayda en hoyo peque¤o. ch>. 71m1-4 xapochtic. agujero. ch>. 71m1-1 xapochtli , tla-. hole. ch>. b.11 f.1 xapochtli =tla. hoyo. ch>. 71m2-25 xapochtontli =tla. hoyo peque¤o. ch>. 71m2- 25 *.w>ch*** amapatlachtli. crushed paper. ch>. b.9 f.5 cuapatlachiuhqui. having a broad head. ch>. b.11 f.7 cuapatlachpil. . ch>. b.11 f.9 cuapatlachtic. ; having a broad head; having a wide head. ch>. b.8 f.3 cuappatlachtli. . ch>. b.10 f.4 cuatepatlachtic. having a broad head. ch>. b.11 f.9 cuitlapatlachtic. having a broad back; wide-bellied. ch>. b.11 f.10 cuitlapilpatlach. flat-tailed. ch>. b.11 f.7 cuitlapilpatlachtic. wide-tailed. ch>. b.11 f.7 oholpatlachehua. . ch>. b.10 f.1 olpatlachtli. wide piece of rubber. ch>. b.10 f.5 oolpatlachehua. . ch>. b.10 f.1 otlachiquippatlachtli. . ch>. b.10 f.5 o[ya]lpatlachtli , tla-. wide maize. ch>. b.2 f.2 papatlachtic. very flat; very wide. ch>. b.11 f.4 patlachihui. it becomes flat; it becomes wide; it becomes broad; it broadens; it widens. ch>. b.11 f.22 patlachilpitica. . ch>. b.6 f.18 patlachiuhqui. wide. ch>. b.10 f.7 patlachpil. . ch>. b.11 f.9 patlachpipil. ; small and wide. ch>. b.11 f.4 patlachteca , nic-. I dress it wide, I hew it wide; I trim it wide. ch>. b.11 f.12 patlachtic. ancha cosa, assi como tabla, camino,estera, lien‡o o cosas semejantes. ch>. 71m1-2 patlachtic. broad, wide; flat. ch>. b.11 f.4 patlachtilahuac. broad and thick; long and thick. ch>. b.10 f.6 patlachtontli. flat and small; small and flat; wide and small. ch>. b.11 f.9 patlachtotonti. broad and small. ch>. b.11 f.17 patlachxima , nic-. I cut it wide; I trim it wide. ch>. b.11 f.12 tamalpatlachtli. wide tamale. ch>. b.10 f.4 tlanitzpatlach. wide shank. ch>. b.10 f.7 tlanitzpatlachihui. shank becomes wide. ch>. b.10 f.7 tlanitzpatlachiuhca , to-. width of our shank; our wide shank. ch>. b.10 f.8 tlanitzpatlachiuhya , to-. wide place of our shank. ch>. b.10 f.8 xahcalpatlachtli. wide hut. ch>. b.11 From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Thu May 19 20:34:58 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 22:34:58 +0200 Subject: Aztec Nahua Gender In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050519111212.049e3f20@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Codex Mendoza has a bit about gender roles. A lot of other literature refers to this Codex when describing Aztec family life, so why not go directly to the original? Rikke Marie Olsen Student at the Department of Native American Language and Culture Studies University of Copenhagen Denmark -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of John F. Schwaller Sent: 19. maj 2005 18:15 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Aztec Nahua Gender At 05:06 PM 5/18/2005, you wrote: > My student, Esmeralda Cruz, is currently conducting a comparative > study on Aztec gender roles in both the pre-Columbian and modern > periods. My suggestion to her is to look at the work of Timothy Knab on > the Sierra de Puebla. Any suggestions for >literatures or studies concerning Nahua/Aztec gender roles through time? Susan Kellogg's book _Law and the Transformation of Aztec Culture_ U Oklahoma press, deals quite heavily with women before and after the conquest. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Fri May 20 03:30:03 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 22:30:03 -0500 Subject: Nahuatlahtos are spoiled list 2 In-Reply-To: <1116533980.428cf4dc9db1a@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Longer list, part 2 *.w>k*** aalacatoc. it lies slippery. k>. b.12 f.4 acacaxactic. ralo,lo texido. <--dupl-caxa:hua-l2-tic .w>k>. 71m1-18 acanactli. narrow river. k>. b.11 f.24 acapitzac , i-. his reed stalk. k>. b.8 f.2 acapitzactla. carrizal. k>. 55m-3 acapitzactli. carrizo especie de ca¤a. k>. 55m-3 acapitzactli. long reed. k>. b.2 f.9 achachayactli. pouring vessel. k>. b.10 f.5 achichiacpan. manantial de aguas, o fuentes. k>. 71m2-1 achichiacpan. spring. k>. b.11 f.24 achichiactli. manadero o manantial; manantial de aguas; o fuentes. k>. 71m1-14 ahhuachpitzactli. thin drizzle. k>. b.7 f.2 alacpatic. very slippery. k>. b.11 f.8 alactic. cosa deleznable, assi como anguilla, pan de xabon mojado, o flema. &c; deleznable cosa como anguilla; xabon mojado; &c. k>. 71m2-1 alactic. smooth, slick. k>. b.11 f.6 alactix , o-. it became slimy. k>. b.4 f.12 alactontli. slippery and small. k>. b.11 f.8 amatlapalalactic. having smooth wings. k>. b.11 f.5 amatlapalpatlactotonti. small, broad leaves. k>. b.11 f.17 apampitzactli. surco para sacar el agua. k>. 55m-18 apatlactempilolli. lip pendant which is shaped like a broad-leafed water plant. k>. b.8 f.2 apatlactli. . k>. b.2 f.5 apitzactli. stream; thin stream of water. k>. b.11 f.24 apitzactotonti. little streams. k>. b.11 f.24 atoyapitzactli. riatillo peque¤o rio. k>. 55m-17 atoyapitzactontli. rio peque¤o. k>. 55m-17 ayatotomactli. coarse maguey fiber cape of thick weave. k>. b.10 f.4 ayel cuitlazotlac. floxo por negligencia. k>. 71m1-11 aztapatlactontli. . k>. b.2 f.2 cacamac. abuhado assi. k>. 55m-00 cacamactic. abuhado assi. k>. 55m-00 cacanactic. thin overall. k>. b.10 f.5 cacatzac. hombre negro, o negra. k>. 71m2- 2 cacatzactic. black. k>. b.10 f.6 cacatzactli. hombre negro, o negra. k>. 71m2- 2 cacatzactli. black. k>. b.6 f.19 cacaxactic. manta rala y mal texida, o cosa semejante, o cosa floxa y mal atada. k>. 71m2-2 calchichicactli. sturdy house. k>. b.11 f.26 calmelactic. like a long room. k>. b.11 f.26 calmelactli. corredor de casa; sala grande y prolongada; o corredor dela casa; sala larga. k>. 55m-3 calnepanol melactli. sala alta y larga. k>. 71m2-2 calnepanolmelactli. sala alta. k>. 55m-18 camactic. cosa tierna y reziente, como la mazorca de mayz antes que este del todo sazonada y seca. &c. k>. 71m2-2 camilectic. amarilla fruta; morena cosa ba‡a. k>. 55m-00 campopozactic. carrilludo. k>. 55m-3 canacpil. little and thin. k>. b.11 f.12 canactic. cosa delgada, como tabla, estera. lienzo, o cosas semejantes llanas. k>. 71m2-2 canactontli. . k>. b.11 f.18 canactontli. cosa delgadilla assi. k>. 71m2-2 canactontli. small and thin. k>. b.11 f.12 canactotonti. small and thin. k>. b.11 f.15 canaczolli. something which is burnished. k>. b.10 f.4 canauhtempatlactli. wide bill of a duck. k>. b.11 f.6 castillan tlaxcalzonectli. mollete pan muelle. k>. 55m-14 catzacpol. dirty. k>. b.11 f.8 catzactia =ni. ensuziarse. k>. 55m-8 catzactia =ni=onicatzactiac. huel. onicatzactix. pararse suzio. k>. 71m2-2 catzactic. cosa suzia; suzia cosa; suzio por no estar lauado. k>. 71m2-2 catzactic. dark. k>. b.11 f.21 catzactic. suzio por no estar lauado. k>. 71m1- 20 catzactilia =nitla. ensuziar algo. k>. 55m-8 catzactilia =nitla=onitlacatzactili. ensuziar algo. k>. 71m2-2 catzactililli =tla. ensuziada cosa. k>. 55m-8 catzactiliztli. suziedad. k>. 55m-19 catzactix. it got dirty. k>. b.12 f.8 catzactontli. blackish. k>. b.11 f.8 cayacton. . k>. b.11 f.20 cecepoctic. adormecido miembro; cosa adormecida o entomecida. k>. 71m1-1 cepoctic. adormecido miembro. k>. 71m1-1 cepoctli. persona entomecida, o tollida. k>. 71m2-3 chachayactic. spreading. k>. b.11 f.11 chamactic. basta lana. k>. 71m1-3 chamactic. coarse. k>. b.11 f.19 chapactontli. scattered. k>. b.11 f.19 chiacpahtic. very oily, very greasy. k>. b.10 f.6 chiactic. oily; greasy. k>. b.10 f.6 chicacpatic. very strong. k>. b.11 f.12 chicactic. cosa rezia y fuerte, o persona anciana; rezia cosa. k>. 71m2-4 chicactic. robust; strong; sturdy. k>. b.4 f.8 chicactontli. a little rigid. k>. b.11 f.10 chicactotonti. a little strong. k>. b.3 f.4 chicactzintli. a little sturdy. k>. b.11 f.26 chichicactic. strong. k>. b.2 f.7 chichipaccaltique. . k>. b.6 f.10 chichipactique. . k>. b.6 f.10 chihua zonectic =ilhuicaapan mo. esponja dela mar. k>. 55m-9 chipaccaltic [scribal error: ??chipaccoltic for chipaccaltic: 55m]. limpia cosa. k>. 55m-12 chipaccaltic. limpia cosa. k>. 71m1-14 chipaccaltic. very clean; very clear. k>. b.10 f.4 chipacpahtic. very clean. k>. b.10 f.4 chipacpatic. exceedingly clear; very clear. k>. b.11 f.22 chipacpol. clear. k>. b.12 f.6 chipactic. limpia cosa. k>. 55m-12 chipactic. clean; clear. k>. b.10 f.1 chiyactic. cundida mancha. k>. 71m1-6 cinmelactli. straight ear of dried maize. k>. b.11 f.27 cocoyactic. wide. k>. b.6 f.10 cone alacton. ni¤o delicado muy tierno, o ni¤a. k>. 71m2-4 cuacuauhtiticectic. . k>. b.11 f.2 cuahcuauhtilactla. place of thick forest. k>. b.11 f.11 cuapatlach. cabe‡udo de cabe‡a ancha. k>. 55m-2 cuapatlactotonti. wide at the tip. k>. b.11 f.15 cuapatlacyo. . k>. b.8 f.2 cuappatlacyo. . k>. b.8 f.2 cuappitzactli. palo delgado. k>. 71m2-14 cuatilacpol. thick-headed. k>. b.10 f.11 cuauhpitzactli. palo o vara delgada. k>. 71m2-15 cuauhtilac. very thick. k>. b.10 f.6 cuauhtilacpatic. very tightly woven. k>. b.10 f.4 cuauhtilactic. ; espessa cosa assi. k>. 71m2-15 cuauhtilactic. tightly woven. k>. b.10 f.4 cuautilactla. place of thick forest. k>. b.11 f.11 cuechactic. cosa humida, o mojada. k>. 71m2-5 cuecueyactic. spread out, radiating. k>. b.11 f.20 cuexpalchicacpol. big tuft of hair over the back of the head; long tuft of hair on the back of the head. k>. b.8 f.5 cuichectic. cosa vn poco negra o ahumada; negro vn poco. k>. 71m2-5 cuichectic. blackish, sooty; dark colored; darkened. k>. b.11 f.2 cuitlapilpopoyactic. having a dark tail. k>. b.11 f.2 cuitlapilpoyactontli. having a somewhat dark tail. k>. b.11 f.2 cuitlatomacpol. fat-backed. k>. b.11 f.7 cuitlatomactic. broad-backed, having a broad back; thick-bodied; having a thick body; thick-bellied. k>. b.11 f.2 cuitlatomactontli. ; small; thick back. k>. b.11 f.10 cuitlaxcolpitzactli. . k>. b.6 f.1 cuitlaxcolpitzactli. tripas delgadas. k>. 55m-19 cuitlaxcolpitzactli. empty gutted; thin intestines. k>. b.6 f.17 cuitlaxcoltomactli. tripas gordas. k>. 71m2-5 cuitlazotlac. floxo por negligencia. k>. 55m-10 cuitlazotlac. indolent; lazy. k>. b.4 f.9 cuitlazozotlac. indolent. k>. b.10 f.1 ecapeyactli. ayere delgado fresco, y manso. k>. 71m2-5 ecapitzactli. ayre delgado. k>. 55m-00 eecapeyactli. ayre delgado; ayre delgado y sotil. k>. 55m-00 ehcapitzactli. narrow current of air. k>. b.11 f.9 ehecapeyactli. ayre delgado. k>. 71m1-1 epitzactli. . k>. b.10 f.4 ezcocopitzactli. vena sotil de sangre. k>. 55m-19 huapacpahtic. exceedingly firm. k>. b.10 f.8 huapactia. empedernecerse o pararse duro el pan o cosa assi. k>. 55m-7 huapactic. . k>. b.11 f.17 huapactic. aspera cosa; aspera cosa como vestidura; empedernido assi; enertado assi. k>. 71m1-3 huapactic. firm, stiff; rough. k>. b.10 f.8 huapactiliztli. aspereza assi. k>. 55m-1 huapactontli. hard, firm. k>. b.11 f.10 hueltilactic. espessa cosa assi. k>. 71m1- 11 huetzquiztomac. risue¤o. k>. 55m-17 huitzectli =tla. . k>. 71m2-25 icniiuhmoyactli. . k>. b.6 f.18 icnimmoyactli. withdrawal of friends. k>. b.4 f.2 icniuhmoyactli. . k>. b.6 f.18 icnopiltotomactli. yngratissimo. k>. 71m1-13 itzpatlactli. ; broad piece of obsidian. k>. b.9 f.5 itzpatlacyo. . k>. b.12 f.4 itztilactli. broad obsidian blade. k>. b.10 f.11 ixchicactic. firm. k>. b.11 f.23 ixcuatolpopozactic. . k>. b.11 f.6 ixcuichectic. ashen; smoky-colored. k>. b.11 f.3 ixmelactique. long-faced [pl.]. k>. b.10 f.11 ixmemelactic. . k>. b.11 f.21 ixpatzac. tuerto de vn ojo. k>. 55m-19 ixpatzactic. tuerto de vn ojo. k>. 55m-19 ixticectic. descolorido assi; desflauada cosa. k>. 55m-5 ixtlatlactia =n. colorado tener el rostro deverguen‡a. k>. 71m1-5 ixtlatlactic. ruddyish. k>. b.11 f.23 ixtlatlactilia =nin. colorado tener el rostro de verguen‡a; colorado tener el rostro deverguen‡a; correrse de algo. k>. 55m-3 ixtlatlactiliani =mo. corrido assi. k>. 55m-3 ixtlatlactiliztli [scribal error: ??error: ixtlatlactliztli for ixtlatlactiliztli; m1 has yxtlatlactiliztli: 55m]. corrimiento tal. k>. 55m-4 ixtlatlactiliztli. corrimiento tal. k>. 71m1-5 ixtotomac. atochado. k>. 71m1-3 ixtotomac , t-. you are a fool; you are shameless. k>. b.6 f.10 ixtotomac. foolish person; foolish. k>. b.10 f.1 iztacanactli. thin bar of salt. k>. b.10 f.5 iztalectic. amarillo assi; blanquezino assi; demudado assi; descolorido assi. k>. 55m-00 iztalectic. pale; yellow. k>. b.10 f.5 iztalectiliztli. blancura tal. k>. 55m-2 mapatlactoton. having broad leaves. k>. b.11 f.15 mapatlactotonti. having small wide branches. k>. b.11 f.15 mapiltotomactic. fat-fingered, having fat fingers. k>. b.2 f.2 matilacpil. having small thick leaves. k>. b.11 f.21 matilactic. having thick leaves. k>. b.11 f.21 matitilactic. . k>. b.11 f.13 matitilacton. . k>. b.11 f.13 matohtomactic. having thick paws. k>. b.11 f.1 mauhcazonec. couarde. k>. 71m1-6 mauhcazonec =ni. couarde ser. k>. 71m1-6 mazozotlac. floxo por negligencia. k>. 55m-10 mazozotlacyotl. floxedad assi o negligencia. k>. 55m-10 melacpatic. very long. k>. b.11 f.26 melacpil. rather long. k>. b.11 f.1 melacpol. long, straight. k>. b.11 f.9 melacteca =nino. estenderme en largo. k>. 55m-9 melacteca =nino=oninomelactecac. tenderse, o echarse enel suelo. k>. 71m2-9 melactic. cosa derecha y luenga. k>. 71m2-9 melactic. long; long and straight; straight. k>. b.11 f.26 melactiticac. long, straight. k>. b.11 f.26 melactontli. . k>. b.11 f.7 melactotonti. . k>. b.5 f.3 memelacpil. . k>. b.11 f.21 memelactic. ; cord-like; long; straight; slender; straight and long. k>. b.11 f.20 mixcanactli. nuues ralas. k>. 71m1-16 mixpoyactli. nuues ralas. k>. 71m1-16 momoyactic. separated, outspread; spread out; radiating. k>. b.11 f.20 moyactic. cundida mancha. k>. 71m1-6 nacazpapatlactic. having wide ears. k>. b.11 f.2 nacazpatlac. orejudo. k>. 55m-15 nacazpatlactic. wide-eared, having wide ears. k>. b.2 f.2 nexectic. pardo color. k>. 71m1-16 nexectontli. rather ashen. k>. b.11 f.10 nexehuacaticectic. light ashen in color. k>. b.11 f.5 ohpitzacquetza , n-. I follow the trail. k>. b.11 f.26 ohpitzactli. trail, path; narrow road. k>. b.11 f.26 opitzacochpana , n-. I sweep the trail. k>. b.11 f.26 opitzactli. senda o sendero; vereda o senda; vereta o renta. k>. 55m-18 opitzactli. narrow road; trail. k>. b.12 f.6 otlapitzactli. long stout cane. k>. b.2 f.9 palpoyactic =tla. rosado color de rosas. k>. 55m-17 paltepitzactli , tla-. red and slender. k>. b.6 f.19 papalactotonti. wide and small. k>. b.11 f.16 papatlactic. broad, wide; widely spaced. k>. b.11 f.21 papatlactotonti. wide and small. k>. b.11 f.4 patlactic. broad; wide. k>. b.3 f.3 patlactontli. ; small and wide; wide and small. k>. b.11 f.2 patlactotonti. ; rather wide and small; somewhat small and wide. k>. b.11 f.15 patzachuacqui. . k>. b.10 f.4 patzachuacqui. a¤ublado pan; a¤ublado trigo; mayz ocosa semejante. k>. 55m-1 patzachuaqui. a¤ublarse assi; a¤ublarse el trigo; &c. k>. 55m-1 patzactic. a¤ublado pan; a¤ublado trigo; mayz ocosa semejante; elado trigo o mayz. k>. 55m-1 patzactic. blighted; smutty. k>. b.10 f.4 patzactzintli. . k>. b.4 f.1 patzactzintli , ni-. . k>. b.6 f.18 peyactic. corriente de tejado o cosa semejante. k>. 71m2-14 pinectic. descolorido assi. k>. 55m-5 pinectic. pale. k>. b.10 f.6 pinectontli , ti-. you are pale. k>. b.6 f.10 pitzactic. cosa delgada y larga, assi comovara, soga o cosas semejantes; delgado assi. k>. 71m2-14 pitzactic. slender. k>. b.11 f.26 pitzactli. cosa delgada y larga, assi comovara, soga o cosas semejantes. k>. 71m2-14 pitzactontli. small and narrow. k>. b.11 f.26 pochectia =ni. ahumar se desta manera; ahumarse. k>. 71m1-1 pochectic. ahumada cosa; ahumada cosa assi. k>. 55m-00 pochectic. blackish; smoky colored; smoky. k>. b.11 f.10 pochectilia =nitla. ahumar algo; assi como pared o manta &c. k>. 55m-00 pochectique. smoky [pl.]. k>. b.11 f.6 pochectontli. rather dark, a little dark; rather smoky colored. k>. b.11 f.10 popoxactic. . k>. b.10 f.5 popoyacpil. dark. k>. b.11 f.2 popoyactic. dark. k>. b.11 f.2 popozactic. hinchada cosa, o llena de tolondrones. k>. 71m2-14 poxacpatic. very spongy. k>. b.11 f.27 poxactia. it is spongy. k>. b.11 f.27 poxactic. . k>. b.10 f.5 poxactic. cosa fofa, o esponjada, o tela rala y floxamente texida; esponjosa cosa; fofa cosa. k>. 71m2-14 poxactic ichcatilmatli. picote o sayal. k>. 55m-16 poxactic. soft; spongy. k>. b.11 f.27 poyactic. dark. k>. b.11 f.2 poyactic mixtli. nuues ralas. k>. 71m1-16 poyactontli. a little dark; rather dark. k>. b.11 f.2 pozactic. cosa hinchada assi. k>. 71m2-14 quetzalpatzactli. ; quetzal feather crest device. k>. b.8 f.2 tanamelactli. straight basket. k>. b.10 f.5 tealacyo. having slippery rocks. k>. b.11 f.24 tempatlac , i-. its wide bill. k>. b.11 f.6 tempatlactic. broad-billed. k>. b.11 f.3 tempatlactli. wide bill. k>. b.11 f.6 tencuichectic. having dark edges. k>. b.11 f.5 tentomactli. hocico como de puerco. k>. 55m- 11 tentomactontli. hocico peque¤o. k>. 55m-11 tenxipaltotomacpol. thick-lipped person. k>. b.11 f.22 teocacatzacti. dirty gods. k>. b.12 f.2 tepampitzactli. pared delgada y estrecha, o tabique; tabique pared. k>. 71m2-17 tepapatlacmantli =tla. suelo de losas. k>. 55m-18 tepatlacpan. on a broad stone. k>. b.6 f.19 tepatlactli. losa o piedra ancha y llana. k>. 71m2-17 tepatlactli. broad stone. k>. b.6 f.19 tepitzacnechicoa , ni-. I gather tiny stones. k>. b.11 f.25 tepitzactli. tiny stone. k>. b.11 f.25 tepitztlacuactic. dura cosa generalmente. k>. 55m-6 tepitztlacuactilia =nitla. endurecer algo. k>. 71m1-10 tepitztlacuactiliztli. dureza assi; dureza tal. k>. 55m-6 tepoxachuia =nitla. esponjar con esta esponja. k>. 55m-9 tepoxachuiliztli =tla. esponjadura desta manera. k>. 55m-9 tepoxactli. esponja piedra. k>. 55m-9 tetzacpahtic. very thick. k>. b.10 f.4 tetzacpatic. very thick. k>. b.10 f.8 tetzacpol. spoiled clot. k>. b.4 f.2 tetzactic. cuajada cosa. k>. 55m-4 tetzactic. thick. k>. b.10 f.4 texipaltotomac. thick-lipped. k>. b.2 f.2 texipaltotomacpol. thick-lipped person. k>. b.11 f.21 texipaltotomactic. thick-lipped. k>. b.2 f.2 tezonectli. esponja piedra. k>. 55m-9 ticectic. blanquizca cosa y deslauada. k>. 71m1-4 ticectic. faded; white; chalky. k>. b.10 f.4 ticectontli. chalky and small. k>. b.11 f.3 tilacpahtic. very thick. k>. b.10 f.6 tilacpatic. very thick. k>. b.10 f.4 tilacpol. extremely thick; thick. k>. b.10 f.4 tilactic. espessa cosa assi. k>. 55m-9 tilactic. thick, thickish. k>. b.10 f.4 tilactotonti. thick and small. k>. b.11 f.16 titilacpopol. . k>. b.12 f.3 titilactic. thick overall; thick. k>. b.10 f.5 tlacopitzachuia =nite. herir con vara. k>. 55m-11 tlacopitzachuia =nite=onitetlacopitzachui. herir, o azotar a otro con mimbres, o vardascas. k>. 71m2-20 tlacopitzachuiliztli =te. herida tal. k>. 71m1-13 tlacopitzactli. mimbre, o vardasca para azotar; vara para hostigar. k>. 71m2-20 tlacopitzacuiliztli =te. herida tal. k>. 55m-11 tlacti , tla-. it becomes ruddy. k>. b.11 f.3 tlactia , tla-. it becomes ruddy. k>. b.11 f.3 tlactic , tla-. blotched, reddened; ruddy. k>. b.11 f.2 tlacuacpatic. very firm. k>. b.11 f.19 tlacuactia. endurecerse. k>. 55m-7 tlacuactia. it hardens. k>. b.11 f.24 tlacuactic. cosa dura; dura carne mal cozida; dura carne; mal cozida; dura cosa generalmente. k>. 71m2-23 tlacuactic. firm; hard; tough. k>. b.11 f.11 tlacuactilia =nitla. endurecer algo. k>. 55m-7 tlacuactilia =nitla=onitlatlacuactili. endurecer alguna cosa. k>. 71m2-23 tlacuactililiztli =tla. endurecimiento tal. k>. 55m-7 tlacuactililli =tla. endurecido assi. k>. 55m-7 tlacuactiliztli. dureza; dureza assi; dureza tal. k>. 71m2-23 tlacuactiliztli =tla. endurecimiento tal. k>. 71m1-10 tlalchipacpan. in the early morning. k>. b.12 f.3 tlalhuapitzactli. thin nerve. k>. b.10 f.8 tlaolpatzactic. elado trigo o mayz. k>. 71m1-9 tlaolpatzactli. a¤ublado trigo, mayz ocosa semejante. k>. 71m1-2 tlatlactic. ruuia cosa encendida. k>. 55m-17 tlaxochpitzacti. trena o tren‡a. k>. 71m1- 20 tlaxochpitzactli. . k>. b.2 f.4 tlaxochpitzactli. trena o tren‡a. k>. 55m- 19 tlilectic. ba‡o cosa vn poco negra; cosa morena o vn poco negra. k>. 55m-1 tlilectic [scribal error: ??tlilctic for tlilectic: 55m]. negro de guinea. k>. 55m-14 tlilectic. negro vn poco. k>. 55m-14 tlilectic. blackish. k>. b.10 f.6 tlitlilectic. pecoso. k>. 71m2-25 tolpatlactic. ; like a wide reed. <+need:plant .w>k>. b.11 f.21 tolpatlactli. . k>. b.2 f.2 tolpatlactli. espada¤a yerua. k>. 55m-9 tolpatlactli. broad reed. k>. b.1 f.2 tomacpol. gorda cosa. k>. 55m-10 tomactic. thick. k>. b.2 f.6 tomactontli. fleshy and small; somewhat thick; thick-bodied; thick and small. k>. b.11 f.2 tomiyopoyactic. dark-furred, having dark fur. k>. b.11 f.2 totomacpol. membrudo de grandes miembros. k>. 71m1-15 totomacpol. very fat. k>. b.10 f.2 tozcachicactic =ni. boz rezia tener para predicar, &c. k>. 71m1-4 xiloxochipatzactli. . k>. b.8 f.2 xocpaltitilacpol. . <+epith .w>k>. b.11 f.21 xopalectic quetzalli. verda pluma rica. k>. 55m-19 xopapatlactic. ombre de grandes pies. k>. 55m-15 xopapatlactic. broad-footed; having wide feet; wide-footed. k>. b.11 f.3 xopipitzactic. . k>. b.11 f.8 xopitzactic. having slender legs. k>. b.11 f.3 xopitzactli. ‡anca. k>. 55m-4 xothiticectic. chalky-legged. k>. b.11 f.5 xototomactic. having thick legs. k>. b.11 f.5 yacacocoyactic. having wide nostrils. k>. b.2 f.2 yacapitzactic. ahusada cosa. k>. 71m1-1 yapalectic. cardeno o carne lastimada; cardeno; carne lastimada. k>. 71m1-4 yapalehuac. cardeno o carne lastimada. k>. 71m1-4 yayapalectic. pecoso. k>. 71m2- 5 yollochicactic. magnanimo. k>. 55m- 13 yollotlacuac. endurecido assi o pertinaz; endurecido assi; o pertinaz. k>. 55m-7 yollotlacuactia =ni. confirmarse enel mal. k>. 71m1-5 yollotlacuactiliztli. dureza assi. k>. 71m1-9 zazamac. abuhado assi. k>. 55m-00 zazamactic. . k>. b.10 f.5 zazamactic. abuhado assi. k>. 55m-00 zazamactli. . k>. b.10 f.5 zonectic. esponjosa cosa; liuiana cosa. k>. 55m- 9 zonectic. spiky; spongy; light; fluffy. k>. b.11 f.10 zonectiliztica. liuianamente. k>. 71m1-14 zonectontli. fluffy. k>. b.11 f.5 zotlacmicti , te-. it paralyzes one. k>. b.11 f.13 zotlacmictia , te-. it paralyzes one. k>. b.11 f.13 zotlacmiqui , qui-. it paralyzes him. k>. b.11 f.13 zotlacmiqui. they are stupefied. k>. b.11 f.8 zotlactic. flaca cosa sin fuer‡as; flaca; cosa sin fuer‡as ni animo; o couarde; floxa cosa en el cuerpo; floxa cosa enel cuerpo. k>. 55m-9 zozotlacmiqui. deadened. k>. b.4 f.10 zozotlactontli. enfermizo; flaco que no se puede tener o enfermizo. k>. 71m1-10 *.w>z*** alazpatic. very smooth. z>. b.11 f.7 alaztic. ; deleznable cosa como anguilla; xabon mojado; &c. z>. 71m2-1 alaztic. sleek; slick; smooth. z>. b.11 f.1 melaztic. cosa derecha y luenga. z>. 71m2-10 *.z>x*** acotlaxtli =tla. aliuiado; desenhadado; persona aliuiada y contenta. x>. 55m-00 actitlaxtli. hazienda disminuida, desperdiciada, o robada. x>. 55m-11 actitlaxtli =tla. hazienda desperdiciada y desminuida. x>. 71m2-19 atzitzicuilotlapahuaxtli. . x>. b.8 f.2 ayopahuaxtli. cooked gourd. x>. b.10 f.5 cactlaxtli =tla. descalzada persona, o desherrada bestia. x>. 71m2-20 cactlaxtli cahuallo =tla. desherrada bestia. x>. 71m1-7 canauhtlapahuaxtli. duck stewed in a pot. x>. b.8 f.2 chilpahuaxtli. chili which is cooked in an olla. x>. b.10 f.4 compahuaxtli , tla-. something which is cooked in a pot; something cooked in an olla. x>. b.10 f.4 compahuaxtli. something cooked in an olla. x>. b.10 f.4 cuitlatlaxtli =tla. horro o horra de esclauo; horro; o horra de esclaua. x>. 55m-11 elopahuaxtli. ear of cooked maize or corn. x>. b.12 f.5 epahuaxmolli. guisado de frisoles o de hauas. x>. 71m2-5 epahuaxtamalli. cooked bean tamale. x>. b.10 f.4 epahuaxtic. like cooked beans. x>. b.10 f.5 epahuaxtlaoyo. containing cooked shelled beans; containing cooked beans with grains of maize. x>. b.2 f.10 epahuaxtli. frisoles o hauas cozidas. x>. 71m2- 5 epahuaxtli. cooked bean. x>. b.10 f.4 etextli. harina de hauas o frisoles. x>. 55m-10 etexyo. having ground beans. x>. b.10 f.5 huecatlaxtli =tla. cosa diferida assi. x>. 71m2-25 ichcatextic. flueco de lana. x>. 55m-10 ihhuitl textli =iuhquin. harina lo sotil della. x>. 55m-10 imacax , m[o]-. your respect. x>. b.6 f.8 imacaxtlanqui. digno de ser temido. x>. 71m1-8 imacaxtlaqui. . x>. b.10 f.1 imacaxtli. digno de ser temido. x>. 71m1-8 imacaxtli , t-. you are stern. x>. b.6 f.5 imacaxtli =atla. desacatado. x>. 55m-5 imacaxtli. respected; revered. x>. b.10 f.3 imacaxyo. revered. x>. b.10 f.1 iotexpan. on the cornmeal. x>. b.2 f.7 iotextli. ; cornmeal. x>. b.2 f.7 ixyotexhuia , m[o]-. they put flour on their faces. x>. b.2 f.2 nenepiltexquimiliuhcayotl. coating on the tongue. x>. b.10 f.8 nenepiltextli. coated tongue. x>. b.10 f.8 nex , itla-. its light. x>. b.11 f.10 ocpahuaxtli. vino cozido. x>. 55m-20 ohuacuauhtextli. cornstalk flour, maize stalk flour; pulverized maize stalk. x>. b.12 f.2 ohuacuauhtexxotia , m[o]-. it is covered with pulverized maize stalk. x>. b.9 f.7 ohuacuauhtexyo. having pulverized maize stalks. x>. b.10 f.5 olpahuaxtli , tla-. maize stew. x>. b.2 f.1 otlaxtli =tla. desencaminado assi. x>. 71m1- 7 o[ya]lpahuaxtli , tla-. cooked grains of maize. x>. b.7 f.2 o[ya]lpahuaxtzintli , tla-. wretched cooked maize. x>. b.9 f.2 o[ya]ltexo , tla-. having ground grains of maize. x>. b.10 f.5 o[ya]ltextica , tla-. with ground maize, using ground maize. x>. b.10 f.4 o[ya]ltextli , tla-. cornmeal. x>. b.2 f.7 o[ya]ltexyo , tla-. having ground maize grains. x>. b.10 f.5 pahuaxtli , tla-. cooked in a pot; cooked; something cooked in a pot. x>. b.8 f.2 pahuaxtli , tlaa-. something boiled in a pot. x>. b.10 f.5 pahuaxtli =tla. cosa cozida en olla. x>. 71m2-22 panitlaxtli =tla. desenterrado muerto. x>. 71m1-7 tlaeltextli. poorly ground flour. x>. b.10 f.4 tlanex , i-. its light. x>. b.11 f.10 tlaolpahuaxtli. cozido maiz sin carne para comerlo assi. x>. 71m1-6 tlaxtli =tla. abortada criatura assi. x>. 55m-00 tzincuauhyotlaxtli =tla. despe‡onada fruta. x>. 55m-5 tzontlaxtli =tla. rayda,media hanega. x>. 71m1-18 xilopahuaxtli. . x>. b.12 f.5 xiuhtlaxtli =tla. deseruado. x>. 71m1-7 yoltextli. harina. x>. 55m-10 yoltextli =icencauhca in. harina lo sotil della. x>. 55m-10 From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Fri May 20 05:22:03 2005 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 06:22:03 +0100 Subject: Please what is the WWW address of this group's archives of old messages? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Please what is the WWW address of this group's archives of old messages? From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Fri May 20 13:58:01 2005 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:58:01 -0500 Subject: Please what is the WWW address of this group's archives of old messages? In-Reply-To: <20050520052203.13068.qmail@web86704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 12:22 AM 5/20/2005, you wrote: >Please what is the WWW address of this group's archives of old messages? It is the following: http://lists.umn.edu/archives/nahuat-l.html John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From fcoj98 at YAHOO.COM Sat May 21 15:27:47 2005 From: fcoj98 at YAHOO.COM (FcoJ) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 10:27:47 -0500 Subject: I need some words, pls In-Reply-To: <1116483116.428c2e2c5bc6d@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: This week, someone in this list sent an e-mail with a closing complex sentence by Albert Einstein, saying more or less this, “if we already know what we are researching, (etc) , wouldn’t be?” if that someone is you, could you send me these words to my e-address below please? Many thanks, FcoJ My e-address: mchpifg3 at stud.umist.ac.uk --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Net: La mejor conexión a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Sun May 22 09:07:40 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:07:40 +0200 Subject: I need some words, pls In-Reply-To: <20050521152748.13812.qmail@web50912.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" -Albert Einstein I still had the mail. It was Ruben Mendoza Rikke Marie University of Copenhagen This week, someone in this list sent an e-mail with a closing complex sentence by Albert Einstein, saying more or less this, "if we already know what we are researching, (etc)., wouldn't be?" if that someone is you, could you send me these words to my e-address below please? Many thanks, FcoJ My e-address: mchpifg3 at stud.umist.ac.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Mon May 23 15:53:24 2005 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 11:53:24 -0400 Subject: tepi Message-ID: I know I'm coming to this discussion kind of late (I've been kind of busy), but I just have one comment. First, it is hard to make any kind of definitive statement because we don't have access to the larger context of the document you are working on or even direct access to the part you describe. As you may already know, colonial documents with parallel alphabetic and pictographic texts do not always include everything from one register in the other. So, it is entirely possible that the text you are working on does not include an alphabetic parallel for the glyph in question. So, you don't necessarily have to associate the glyph with an alphabetic name. On the other hand, if Tepi is the surname of the woman and this glyph is associated with her, then this is very strange, because they don't seem to be related. As Fran indicates, the name "Acamapichtli" is well attested, while the name you hypothesize "Amapichtli" is not. It would seem kind of odd, however, to represent the name "Acamapichtli" as a hand grasping water, with the "atl" being a rebus for "acatl" when it would be just as easy to use the well-established and more transparent convention of a hand grasping a reed. I've seen the "Acamapichtli" hand-grasping-a-reed glyph before, but not the hand-grasping-water (keep in mind though that I haven't done any systematic survey of such glyphs). Are you sure it is water in the glyph? If you are correct that it is a hand grasping water, then working from the glyph itself without any clearly parallel alphabetic text is kind of puzzling: the glyph seems to suggest "Amapichtli" while the more common name is "Acamapichtli"; and neither seem to have anything to do with "Tepi." In any case, the name "Amapichtli" would also seem kind of strange in the sense that you can't really grasp water because it isn't solid. But there might be some interesting philosophical implications there. Have you come across the name "Amapichtli" anywhere? If so, I would think that this is the name indicated by the glyph. If not, I think Fran is right that you have to consider the possibility that maybe they were using water as a rebus for "acatl" and that the name is actually "Acamapichtli." Of course, this still doesn't solve the mystery of how it might be related to "Tepi." Maybe there are clues in other parts of the document. Galen Frances Karttunen wrote: > I think the name Delia was inquiring about is A:cama:pi:chtli. > > Ma:pi:ch-tli means 'fist.' A:ca-tl is reed. Rather than representing > water, the water glyph emerging from a fist would be a phonetic hint > that the name in question begins with the vowel/syllable a:. > > > On May 12, 2005, at 7:18 PM, campbel at INDIANA.EDU wrote: > >> "tepiltzin" (note the -tzin) falls apart in different way from >> "tepi" (which >> doesn't fall apart at all). "tepi" is a morpheme, so it has no >> sub-parts, no >> constituents. On the occe maitl, "tepiltzin": >> >> te pil(li) tzin >> someone's child endearing diminutive suffix >> >> With regard to your "a(l(t))-mapitchtli", I doubt that "a:(tl)" >> combines with >> the rest of it in its rarer "al-" form, so it would probably show up >> as "a-". >> In the most common Nahuatl spelling the /ch/ phoneme is spelled "ch" >> (although >> the unitary sound of /ch/ *does* contain a kind of "t"). With the >> leading >> element "cem-", Molina gives both "cemmapichtli" and "cemmapictli": >> >> cemmapichtli haze o haz de cosas menudas; manojo, o hace de cosas >> menudas >> >> cemmapictli ; pun~o o pun~ado assi >> de cosas >> largas; como de pajas o yeruas >> >> cem ma:(itl) pi:qui [patientive noun >> derivation] >> one, complete hand squeeze >> >> (The "ch" form is a variant which is seen frequently in patientive >> nouns.) >> >> Joe >> >> >> Quoting Delia Cosentino : >> >>> Thanks, and just a follow up: is this related to tepilzin at all, i.e. >>> suggesting descent or an offspring, or does it have totally separate >>> linguistic origins? >>> Also, how might people read the name glyph of the stylized stream of >>> water >>> grasped by a hand? Something like...(apologies in >>> advance)...Al(t)mapitchtli? >>> >>> >> > > From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Mon May 23 16:01:47 2005 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 11:01:47 -0500 Subject: tepi In-Reply-To: <4291FC74.7050705@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: At 10:53 AM 5/23/2005, you wrote: >In >any case, the name "Amapichtli" would also seem kind of strange in the >sense that you can't really grasp water because it isn't solid. But >there might be some interesting philosophical implications there. We also do not see naked bottoms growing out of trees [Huexotzinco], but the glyph is not uncommon. Obviously the point I am making is that the "tzinco" of naked bottom is just a glyph for "tzinco" frequently glossed as new Tollan --> Tollantzinco Similarly, if the glyph described does exist [hand grasping water], and it is not one I recall, could the "water" part be standing in for something else? I am drawing a blank, but others might be able to see it. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From L.Diel at TCU.EDU Mon May 23 17:47:11 2005 From: L.Diel at TCU.EDU (Lori Boornazian Diel) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:47:11 -0500 Subject: tepi In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050523105707.04162150@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: In the Codex Aubin, a glyph of a hand grasping water (at 12 House 1569) is used from the name Ana, a(tl) + ma(itl) for a-ma. Also, in the Codex of Tlatelolco, the name glyph for Juan is written with a year sign (for xiuh-) and then a hand grasping water, thereby giving xiuh-a-m(a) or an approximation of Juan (this happens in 5 different places in the ms). So if it's a reference to a colonial woman, could it be her first name, Ana? I'm pretty sure I've seen this glyph elsewhere for the name Ana as well. Best, Lori Diel -- Lori Boornazian Diel Dept. of Art and Art History TCU Box 298000 Texas Christian University Fort Worth, TX 76129 817-257-6613 on 5/23/05 11:01 AM, John F. Schwaller at schwallr at morris.umn.edu wrote: > At 10:53 AM 5/23/2005, you wrote: >> In >> any case, the name "Amapichtli" would also seem kind of strange in the >> sense that you can't really grasp water because it isn't solid. But >> there might be some interesting philosophical implications there. > > > We also do not see naked bottoms growing out of trees [Huexotzinco], but > the glyph is not uncommon. Obviously the point I am making is that the > "tzinco" of naked bottom is just a glyph for "tzinco" frequently glossed as > new Tollan --> Tollantzinco > > Similarly, if the glyph described does exist [hand grasping water], and it > is not one I recall, could the "water" part be standing in for something > else? I am drawing a blank, but others might be able to see it. > > > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at morris.umn.edu From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Mon May 23 18:32:35 2005 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 14:32:35 -0400 Subject: tepi Message-ID: Fritz, When I said "Amapichtli" seemed strange, I was not referring to the pictographic morphology but rather to the meaning of the verbal morphology of the word itself. The meaning of the hypothesized name "Amapichtli" would be somethig like "water-fist" or "fist of water." That meaning is what seems kind of strange, not the pictographic image of water in a fist. One can easily see what the motivation would have been behind the construction of the word "Acamapichtli": a hand grasping a reed. It is more difficult, although perhaps not impossible, to come up with a basis for constructing a word like "Amapichtli." But this is only a comment on the meaning of the verbal morphology of the word hypothesized from a glyph. And since "Amapichtli" was a hypothesized word based on a pictographic glyph, the strangeness of the meaning of the hypothesized verbal morphology seems to suggest, as you imply in your question, that either 1) the word indicated by the glyph is "Amapichtli" but the first "a" is not from "atl" but rather serves as a pun on an identical morpheme; or 2) that the word isn't "Amapichtli" at all and that the pictographic morpheme of water is used to signal a more complex verbal morpheme that probably begins with [a]. The first option doesn't seem very likely. So, if there is no such name as "Amapichtli" with the first [a] being from [atl] (and that is what I was suggesting when I said that it sounds strange), then the verbal morpheme signaled by the glyph is probably not merely [a]. So, the second option is more probably, which is why I think Fran suggested "Acamapichtli." In other words, just based on the glyph, we can never assume that the intended verbal segment of a pictographic water-glyph is simply "a-". It could very well be something more complex like "aca-" from "acatl", or perhaps some other morpheme that begins with the phoneme [a]. It is hard to say just based on the glyph. In other words, the pictographic puns do not always establish relationships between perfectly homophonous words; they don't have to be exact. In the case of "tzin" which appears attached to some reeds [tolin] to produce Tollantzinco or Tulantzinco, there is a perfect homophonic correspondence between the honorific "tzin" of the toponym and the "tzin" meaning buttocks depicted in the glyph (although in some cases, maybe some variation in vowel length?). So anyway, to get back to my point, in most cases, a rebus pun is inherently going to appear strange if you read it mimetically. But the mimetic "strangeness" of pictographic morphology has nothing to do with strangeness of verbal morphology. Galen The example of "tzin" is not parallel because it i "tzin" is not parallel because John F. Schwaller wrote: > At 10:53 AM 5/23/2005, you wrote: > >> In >> any case, the name "Amapichtli" would also seem kind of strange in the >> sense that you can't really grasp water because it isn't solid. But >> there might be some interesting philosophical implications there. > > > > We also do not see naked bottoms growing out of trees [Huexotzinco], but > the glyph is not uncommon. Obviously the point I am making is that the > "tzinco" of naked bottom is just a glyph for "tzinco" frequently glossed as > new Tollan --> Tollantzinco > > Similarly, if the glyph described does exist [hand grasping water], and it > is not one I recall, could the "water" part be standing in for something > else? I am drawing a blank, but others might be able to see it. > > > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at morris.umn.edu > > From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Mon May 23 18:58:56 2005 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 14:58:56 -0400 Subject: tepi Message-ID: Lori, thank you. Of course. This makes a lot of sense. This is very interesting, and just goes to show that the whole "-mapichtli" angle that we were following was misguided from the start. This resolves the "puzzle" that I mentioned. As I said in my original response, aside from all the interesting things that can be said about verbal morphology, glyph morphology, and their relationship, there didn't seem to be any way to associate the glyph with the name "Tepi" that Delia gave from the document. That was the real puzzling thing. I would be willing to bet, and I'm sure Delia will probably confirm that the woman's name was Ana. Lori, I think your explication of the glyph might be valid with the "ma" being a close pun on "-na". But I wonder if it might be more likely that this is an interesting example of the kind of phenomenological configuration that you also see in more complex non-rebus pictographic images (from the Laud codex, for example) where in some cases you have two elements combined, one of which is contained within the other. This type of interpretation would see the hand grasping the water as indicating "ana" which means "to grab" and the water glyph would also pun on [atl] to indicate the verbal segment [a] which begins the name "Ana." The point being that you can't really grab without grabbing something. So, they take advantage of the the phenomenological necessity of the coupling of the grabbing and the object being grabbed to reinforce the phonetic aspect of the word indicated. Galen Lori Boornazian Diel wrote: > In the Codex Aubin, a glyph of a hand grasping water (at 12 House 1569) is > used from the name Ana, a(tl) + ma(itl) for a-ma. Also, in the Codex of > Tlatelolco, the name glyph for Juan is written with a year sign (for xiuh-) > and then a hand grasping water, thereby giving xiuh-a-m(a) or an > approximation of Juan (this happens in 5 different places in the ms). So if > it's a reference to a colonial woman, could it be her first name, Ana? I'm > pretty sure I've seen this glyph elsewhere for the name Ana as well. > Best, > Lori Diel > > > > -- > Lori Boornazian Diel > Dept. of Art and Art History > TCU Box 298000 > Texas Christian University > Fort Worth, TX 76129 > 817-257-6613 > > > > on 5/23/05 11:01 AM, John F. Schwaller at schwallr at morris.umn.edu wrote: > > >>At 10:53 AM 5/23/2005, you wrote: >> >>>In >>>any case, the name "Amapichtli" would also seem kind of strange in the >>>sense that you can't really grasp water because it isn't solid. But >>>there might be some interesting philosophical implications there. >> >> >>We also do not see naked bottoms growing out of trees [Huexotzinco], but >>the glyph is not uncommon. Obviously the point I am making is that the >>"tzinco" of naked bottom is just a glyph for "tzinco" frequently glossed as >>new Tollan --> Tollantzinco >> >>Similarly, if the glyph described does exist [hand grasping water], and it >>is not one I recall, could the "water" part be standing in for something >>else? I am drawing a blank, but others might be able to see it. >> >> >> >> >> >>John F. Schwaller >>Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean >>315 Behmler Hall >>University of Minnesota, Morris >>600 E 4th Street >>Morris, MN 56267 >>320-589-6015 >>FAX 320-589-6399 >>schwallr at morris.umn.edu > > > From dacosentino at EARTHLINK.NET Mon May 23 22:55:04 2005 From: dacosentino at EARTHLINK.NET (Delia Cosentino) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:55:04 -0500 Subject: tepi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lori--I think you've answer A LOT of questions (not just mine) with your extraordinarily helpful observation. Indeed, the woman with the surname Tepi does have the first name Ana. I just couldn't even imagine the connection to the glyph so I didn't even mention it--but what you offer certainly explains it. I'll have to check out the Aubin image (did you first identify that glyph as Ana or is it spelled out in the codex? Ditto for the Juan glyph). So, I guess the upshot is that a hand CAN grasp water and it isn't so strange--especially for those named Ana! MIL GRACIAS, Delia Delia Cosentino Department of Art and Art History DePaul University -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Lori Boornazian Diel Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 12:47 PM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: tepi In the Codex Aubin, a glyph of a hand grasping water (at 12 House 1569) is used from the name Ana, a(tl) + ma(itl) for a-ma. Also, in the Codex of Tlatelolco, the name glyph for Juan is written with a year sign (for xiuh-) and then a hand grasping water, thereby giving xiuh-a-m(a) or an approximation of Juan (this happens in 5 different places in the ms). So if it's a reference to a colonial woman, could it be her first name, Ana? I'm pretty sure I've seen this glyph elsewhere for the name Ana as well. Best, Lori Diel -- Lori Boornazian Diel Dept. of Art and Art History TCU Box 298000 Texas Christian University Fort Worth, TX 76129 817-257-6613 on 5/23/05 11:01 AM, John F. Schwaller at schwallr at morris.umn.edu wrote: > At 10:53 AM 5/23/2005, you wrote: >> In >> any case, the name "Amapichtli" would also seem kind of strange in the >> sense that you can't really grasp water because it isn't solid. But >> there might be some interesting philosophical implications there. > > > We also do not see naked bottoms growing out of trees [Huexotzinco], but > the glyph is not uncommon. Obviously the point I am making is that the > "tzinco" of naked bottom is just a glyph for "tzinco" frequently glossed as > new Tollan --> Tollantzinco > > Similarly, if the glyph described does exist [hand grasping water], and it > is not one I recall, could the "water" part be standing in for something > else? I am drawing a blank, but others might be able to see it. > > > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at morris.umn.edu From L.Diel at TCU.EDU Tue May 24 15:00:07 2005 From: L.Diel at TCU.EDU (Lori Boornazian Diel) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:00:07 -0500 Subject: tepi In-Reply-To: <000a01c55fea$75b32d70$6501a8c0@Delia> Message-ID: I think Galen is right about the hand grasping glyph being read as "to grasp" instead of as "hand," with the water then acting as both the something grasped and a phonetic indicator. Indeed, I just went back over my M.A. Thesis ("A Comparative Study of Personal and Place Names in the Aztec and Mayan Writing Systems," Tulane, 1996) in which I have a chapter on Spanish names in Aztec writing and found the original citation for the Juan glyph: Robert Barlow in his study of the Codex of Tlatelolco identified the Juan glyph and reads ana just as Galen did (see Tlatelolco: Fuentes e Historia. Obras de Robert Barlow, vol. 2, INAH, 1989, p. 343). In the Codex Aubin, the glyph has an associated annotation about the death of a woman named Ana. Lori -- Lori Boornazian Diel Dept. of Art and Art History TCU Box 298000 Texas Christian University Fort Worth, TX 76129 817-257-6613 on 5/23/05 5:55 PM, Delia Cosentino at dacosentino at EARTHLINK.NET wrote: > Lori--I think you've answer A LOT of questions (not just mine) with your > extraordinarily helpful observation. Indeed, the woman with the surname Tepi > does have the first name Ana. I just couldn't even imagine the connection to > the glyph so I didn't even mention it--but what you offer certainly explains > it. I'll have to check out the Aubin image (did you first identify that > glyph as Ana or is it spelled out in the codex? Ditto for the Juan glyph). > So, I guess the upshot is that a hand CAN grasp water and it isn't so > strange--especially for those named Ana! MIL GRACIAS, Delia > > Delia Cosentino > Department of Art and Art History > DePaul University > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] > On Behalf Of Lori Boornazian Diel > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 12:47 PM > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Re: tepi > > In the Codex Aubin, a glyph of a hand grasping water (at 12 House 1569) is > used from the name Ana, a(tl) + ma(itl) for a-ma. Also, in the Codex of > Tlatelolco, the name glyph for Juan is written with a year sign (for xiuh-) > and then a hand grasping water, thereby giving xiuh-a-m(a) or an > approximation of Juan (this happens in 5 different places in the ms). So if > it's a reference to a colonial woman, could it be her first name, Ana? I'm > pretty sure I've seen this glyph elsewhere for the name Ana as well. > Best, > Lori Diel > > > > -- > Lori Boornazian Diel > Dept. of Art and Art History > TCU Box 298000 > Texas Christian University > Fort Worth, TX 76129 > 817-257-6613 > > > > on 5/23/05 11:01 AM, John F. Schwaller at schwallr at morris.umn.edu wrote: > >> At 10:53 AM 5/23/2005, you wrote: >>> In >>> any case, the name "Amapichtli" would also seem kind of strange in the >>> sense that you can't really grasp water because it isn't solid. But >>> there might be some interesting philosophical implications there. >> >> >> We also do not see naked bottoms growing out of trees [Huexotzinco], but >> the glyph is not uncommon. Obviously the point I am making is that the >> "tzinco" of naked bottom is just a glyph for "tzinco" frequently glossed > as >> new Tollan --> Tollantzinco >> >> Similarly, if the glyph described does exist [hand grasping water], and it >> is not one I recall, could the "water" part be standing in for something >> else? I am drawing a blank, but others might be able to see it. >> >> >> >> >> >> John F. Schwaller >> Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean >> 315 Behmler Hall >> University of Minnesota, Morris >> 600 E 4th Street >> Morris, MN 56267 >> 320-589-6015 >> FAX 320-589-6399 >> schwallr at morris.umn.edu From jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Thu May 26 02:11:02 2005 From: jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Rabasa?=) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:11:02 -0700 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050203111833.04397f98@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Dear Listeros: A group of us in the Bay Area have a Nahuatl workshop in which we have been reading Chimalpahin's Diario. We found the following passage a bit difficult to sort out. It comes from that section in which Chimalpahin compares Nahuatl and European language on eclipses. The passage reads: "ynic otlatoca ynic momamallacachotihui ynic mopapanahuitihui ynic cecenteotlatoca, ynic yzqui tlanepanoltitimani ylhuicame" (Rafael Tena's edition p. 228). We are particularly undecided on how to read cecenteotlatoca. Because of the earlier otlatoca (avanzar, andar) we thought that it could be a combination of cecentetl and otlatoca but cecentl as an adjetive could not modify a verb. The other option would be to read cecen and teotlatoca (teotl.tlatoa.ca), which would translate as "each one is god talk." This gets particularly heady given that the European talk on the planets would amount to theology rather than science, etc. etc., etc. Is this a pun? Any suggestions? Thanks, Jose Rabasa From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Thu May 26 06:03:31 2005 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 07:03:31 +0100 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: --- José Rabasa wrote: > We are particularly undecided on how to read cecenteotlatoca. ... > The other option would be to read cecen and teotlatoca > (teotl.tlatoa.ca), which would translate as "each one is god talk.". > This gets particularly heady given that the > European talk on the planets would amount to theology rather than > science, etc. etc., etc. Is this a pun? Any suggestions? The Nahuatl author may may heard that the European names of the planets are also names of old Roman gods. From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Thu May 26 14:16:35 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:16:35 +0200 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jose About cecenteotlatoca. I would analyze it cè-cen-te-ò-tla-toca. I think the first cè is distributive. Centetl means simply one. ò is the root for road. Tla is the absolutive suffix, which is still attached because nahauspeakers dislike short words. Toca is the verb and means follow. All in all You have an incorporated noun (or two if You count centetl, which is actually a numeral, but acts like a noun here because of tetl). I would translate it: they follow different paths or routes. I haven't looked at the rest of the sentence, so should probably be ajusted a bit. Best regards, Rikke Marie Olsen, Student at the Departement of Native American Language and Culture, University of Copenhagen. -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of José Rabasa Sent: 26. maj 2005 04:11 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Chimalpahin Dear Listeros: A group of us in the Bay Area have a Nahuatl workshop in which we have been reading Chimalpahin's Diario. We found the following passage a bit difficult to sort out. It comes from that section in which Chimalpahin compares Nahuatl and European language on eclipses. The passage reads: "ynic otlatoca ynic momamallacachotihui ynic mopapanahuitihui ynic cecenteotlatoca, ynic yzqui tlanepanoltitimani ylhuicame" (Rafael Tena's edition p. 228). We are particularly undecided on how to read cecenteotlatoca. Because of the earlier otlatoca (avanzar, andar) we thought that it could be a combination of cecentetl and otlatoca but cecentl as an adjetive could not modify a verb. The other option would be to read cecen and teotlatoca (teotl.tlatoa.ca), which would translate as "each one is god talk." This gets particularly heady given that the European talk on the planets would amount to theology rather than science, etc. etc., etc. Is this a pun? Any suggestions? Thanks, Jose Rabasa From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Thu May 26 18:42:52 2005 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:42:52 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin Message-ID: Jose, Rikke Marie beat me to the answer, and I think the translation is certainly correct, but I would add a couple of things and a question for Rikke Marie or anybody else. First, it is just interesting to note that Nahuat texts often make our job a lot easier, because as in the case you cite Nahuatl discoruse has a tendency to express the same idea repeatedly using a variety of different words. Such synonymous expressions are not always exactly the same, which helps give you a more complete picture of what is being conveyed. Nevertheless, when they provide a series of more or less synonymous expressions, it makes it easier to figure out any given one of them that may not be as morphologically transparent as the rest. With regard to the specific phrase you mention, it would seem to be clear that the "o" is from "ohtli" or "otli" meaning "road" or "path", and that otlatoca means to follow a path or a road. This is well attested. But I'm curious about the "tla" in this construction. Is it merely a transformation of the absolutive suffix "tli" in order to avoid a short word? Are there a lot of examples of this kind of thing? Or is there another explanation? Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is a kind of fossilized non-specific object pronoun (which is evident in some other verbs), but I really don't know, especially given the fact that it is clear that "toca" does not always appear with this object pronoun. So it certainly isn't always fossilized. I know this doesn't really pose a problem for translation, because "otlatoca" is well attested in other contexts, including the instance just a few words earlier in this same text. So this is just a question to satisfy the morphological rigor that Joe instilled me :-). With regard to "cecente[tl]", part of the problem is that to classify Nahuatl words as nouns, ajectives, and verbs is sometimes misleading. The point is that self-conscious grammar enters into a dialogic relationship with linguistic practice in ways that tend to codify language in clear cut ways that do not necessarily reflect the more flexible and nebulous linguistic ontology of unfettered oral speech that has not been subject to a process of self-conscious grammaticalization. So, although in some cases "cecente-" may seem to function as what we call an ajective, as Rikki Marie points out technically it is a noun because it has that noun root 'te' from 'tetl', and nouns (normally defined in Nahuatl as words that take absolutive suffixes) can be imbedded in verbs to function as either objects or adverbs as defined by modern grammatical categories. With the duplication of the "ce", the "cecente" might be rendered as "each one." The plural "ilhuicame" at the end seems to suggest that it is talking about celestial planes. (Is he talking here perhaps about the European model of concentric heavens?) So it seems to me that the phrase "cecenteotlatoca" could be understood as saying literally "They path-followed in an each-one like way" which would translate more eloquently in English as "Each one followed its path" or maybe even better "They followed their respective paths." Galen Rikke Marie Olsen wrote: > Dear Jose > > About cecenteotlatoca. I would analyze it cè-cen-te-ò-tla-toca. I think the > first cè is distributive. Centetl means simply one. ò is the root for road. > Tla is the absolutive suffix, which is still attached because nahauspeakers > dislike short words. Toca is the verb and means follow. All in all You have > an incorporated noun (or two if You count centetl, which is actually a > numeral, but acts like a noun here because of tetl). > I would translate it: they follow different paths or routes. I haven't > looked at the rest of the sentence, so should probably be ajusted a bit. > > Best regards, > Rikke Marie Olsen, > Student at the Departement of Native American Language and Culture, > University of Copenhagen. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] > On Behalf Of José Rabasa > Sent: 26. maj 2005 04:11 > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Chimalpahin > > Dear Listeros: > > A group of us in the Bay Area have a Nahuatl workshop in which we > have been reading Chimalpahin's Diario. We found the following > passage a bit difficult to sort out. It comes from that section in > which Chimalpahin compares Nahuatl and European language on eclipses. > The passage reads: > > "ynic otlatoca ynic momamallacachotihui ynic mopapanahuitihui ynic > cecenteotlatoca, ynic yzqui tlanepanoltitimani ylhuicame" (Rafael > Tena's edition p. 228). > > We are particularly undecided on how to read cecenteotlatoca. > Because of the earlier otlatoca (avanzar, andar) we thought that it > could be a combination of cecentetl and otlatoca but cecentl as an > adjetive could not modify a verb. The other option would be to read > cecen and teotlatoca (teotl.tlatoa.ca), which would translate as > "each one is god talk." This gets particularly heady given that the > European talk on the planets would amount to theology rather than > science, etc. etc., etc. Is this a pun? Any suggestions? > > Thanks, > > Jose Rabasa > > From jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Thu May 26 19:52:13 2005 From: jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Rabasa?=) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:52:13 -0700 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <429618AC.5020707@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: Galen, Thanks for this most thorough explanation of the morphology of the terms. I appreciate your indication about the limits of such gramatical catgeories as adjetives, nouns and adverbs, and your underscoring that oral speech has a more flexible and nebulous ontology that is not subject to grammaticalization. But I wonder to what extent we speak of Chimalpahin as someone who is not at least in this particular passage merely reporting oral speech but developing a self-conscious written Nahuatl. As you point out the otlatoca is attested by Molina, and figures earlier in the passage. I cannot answer the question you pose as to the passage from -tli in otli to -tla- in otlatoca. But perhaps someone else can say something about it. Your silence regarding the possible pun suggests that morphologically it makes no sense to derive cecen.teotl.tlatoa.ca, "each one by god talk." Is this correct or does it not make sense because of the context, but couldn't it be a parenthetical remark? I know this is not the simplest of explanations; given the insistence on the repetition of movement in "momamallacachotihui" (como se van girando), mpopapanahuitihui (como se van sobrepasando), it would make more sense to speak of cecenteotlatoca (como siguen unos a otros), but note that the reflexive has been dropped and that a coma separates this sequence from Ynic yzqui tlanepanoltitimani yluicame (como todos estan juntos en el cielo). In short, if the the alternate morphological analysis is correct, there could be a pun ¿no? If not what phonological reason could be given to exclude the possibility. Jose >Jose, >Rikke Marie beat me to the answer, and I think the translation is >certainly correct, but I would add a couple of things and a question for >Rikke Marie or anybody else. >First, it is just interesting to note that Nahuat texts often make our >job a lot easier, because as in the case you cite Nahuatl discoruse has >a tendency to express the same idea repeatedly using a variety of >different words. Such synonymous expressions are not always exactly the >same, which helps give you a more complete picture of what is being >conveyed. Nevertheless, when they provide a series of more or less >synonymous expressions, it makes it easier to figure out any given one >of them that may not be as morphologically transparent as the rest. >With regard to the specific phrase you mention, it would seem to be >clear that the "o" is from "ohtli" or "otli" meaning "road" or "path", >and that otlatoca means to follow a path or a road. This is well >attested. But I'm curious about the "tla" in this construction. Is it >merely a transformation of the absolutive suffix "tli" in order to avoid >a short word? Are there a lot of examples of this kind of thing? Or is >there another explanation? Of course, the first thing that comes to mind >is a kind of fossilized non-specific object pronoun (which is evident in >some other verbs), but I really don't know, especially given the fact >that it is clear that "toca" does not always appear with this object >pronoun. So it certainly isn't always fossilized. I know this doesn't >really pose a problem for translation, because "otlatoca" is well >attested in other contexts, including the instance just a few words >earlier in this same text. So this is just a question to satisfy the >morphological rigor that Joe instilled me :-). >With regard to "cecente[tl]", part of the problem is that to classify >Nahuatl words as nouns, ajectives, and verbs is sometimes misleading. >The point is that self-conscious grammar enters into a dialogic >relationship with linguistic practice in ways that tend to codify >language in clear cut ways that do not necessarily reflect the more >flexible and nebulous linguistic ontology of unfettered oral speech that >has not been subject to a process of self-conscious grammaticalization. >So, although in some cases "cecente-" may seem to function as what we >call an ajective, as Rikki Marie points out technically it is a noun >because it has that noun root 'te' from 'tetl', and nouns (normally >defined in Nahuatl as words that take absolutive suffixes) can be >imbedded in verbs to function as either objects or adverbs as defined by >modern grammatical categories. With the duplication of the "ce", the >"cecente" might be rendered as "each one." The plural "ilhuicame" at the >end seems to suggest that it is talking about celestial planes. (Is he >talking here perhaps about the European model of concentric heavens?) So >it seems to me that the phrase "cecenteotlatoca" could be understood as >saying literally "They path-followed in an each-one like way" which >would translate more eloquently in English as "Each one followed its >path" or maybe even better "They followed their respective paths." >Galen > > > > > > >Rikke Marie Olsen wrote: >>Dear Jose >> >>About cecenteotlatoca. I would analyze it cè-cen-te-ò-tla-toca. I think the >>first cè is distributive. Centetl means simply one. ò is the root for road. >>Tla is the absolutive suffix, which is still attached because nahauspeakers >>dislike short words. Toca is the verb and means follow. All in all You have >>an incorporated noun (or two if You count centetl, which is actually a >>numeral, but acts like a noun here because of tetl). >>I would translate it: they follow different paths or routes. I haven't >>looked at the rest of the sentence, so should probably be ajusted a bit. >> >>Best regards, >>Rikke Marie Olsen, >>Student at the Departement of Native American Language and Culture, >>University of Copenhagen. >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] >>On Behalf Of José Rabasa >>Sent: 26. maj 2005 04:11 >>To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >>Subject: Chimalpahin >> >>Dear Listeros: >> >>A group of us in the Bay Area have a Nahuatl workshop in which we >>have been reading Chimalpahin's Diario. We found the following >>passage a bit difficult to sort out. It comes from that section in >>which Chimalpahin compares Nahuatl and European language on eclipses. >>The passage reads: >> >>"ynic otlatoca ynic momamallacachotihui ynic mopapanahuitihui ynic >>cecenteotlatoca, ynic yzqui tlanepanoltitimani ylhuicame" (Rafael >>Tena's edition p. 228). >> >>We are particularly undecided on how to read cecenteotlatoca. >>Because of the earlier otlatoca (avanzar, andar) we thought that it >>could be a combination of cecentetl and otlatoca but cecentl as an >>adjetive could not modify a verb. The other option would be to read >>cecen and teotlatoca (teotl.tlatoa.ca), which would translate as >>"each one is god talk." This gets particularly heady given that the >>European talk on the planets would amount to theology rather than >>science, etc. etc., etc. Is this a pun? Any suggestions? >> >>Thanks, >> >>Jose Rabasa From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Thu May 26 22:17:40 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:17:40 -0500 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting José Rabasa : > As you point out the otlatoca is attested by > Molina, and figures earlier in the passage. I > cannot answer the question you pose as to the > passage from -tli in otli to -tla- in otlatoca. > Tocayo, I collected some examples of "ohtlatoca" last night and I think I've cleaned out (most of) the irrelevant ones. Galen's commentary has covered beyond what I could have said when onicochmic. I just wanted to add a comment to the problem about the mysterious "tla". The active morphology of Nahuatl involves forms such as the following: ni-c-toca I follow him ni-tla-toca I follow something And, as in the case with other verbs, "tla-" sometimes fuses to form a new intransitive verb "tlatoca" (to follow or continue along). The noun stem "oh-" is then prefixed adverbially. "Tla-" fusion is sometimes recognizable by the placement of those adverbial nouns -- the position inside the adverbial noun (close to the verb) is an indication of fusion, just as is the reduplication of the "tla-", since objects don't reduplicate, but something fused and made into an integral part of the verb stem will. Saludos, Joe huallotlatocatiaque** 1. inic matlactli capitulo: oncan mitoa in quenin espa¤oles zan ihuian, huallalhuaccaquizque, *huallotlatocatiaque* ihuan in quenin moteuczoma quicauh in huei tecpan,. tenth chapter, in which it is told how quite slowly the spaniards came forth to dry land, [how] they followed along the road, and how moctezuma left the great palace; (b.12 f.2 p.27). hualotlatoca** 2. achtopa hualquiza in eztli, ic neci ca ye *hualotlatoca*, ye quihualtopehua in piltzintli:. first the blood comes out, which shows that the baby is about to follow, about to be forced out. (b.11 f.18 p.180). 3. auh in ohuallalhuacaquizque yequene ic huitze: in ye hualolinizque, in ye hualolini, in ye *hualotlatoca*, cenca necuitlahuiloque, mahuizmachoque,. and when the spaniards came forth to dry land, [when] finally they so came, when already they were to move, when already they moved, when already they followed the road, they were well cared for, they were held in esteem. (b.12 f.2 p.23). hualotlatocaque** 4. zan temac in huallatiaque, in *hualotlatocaque*,. it was completely in [the emissaries'] hands that they went along, that they followed the road along. (b.12 f.2 p.23). hualotlatocaya** 5. auh quin oncan maco: in inneoquichitol in apozonaltentetl, ihuan quetzalcoyolnacochtli, quetzalichayatl coxoli, ehcacehuaztli: zacuantica tlatzimpacholli, xahuactopilli, toztlapilollo, cuitlacochio, in ipan *hualotlatocaya*, inic hualahcia in nican mexico.. and then [and] there they were given their symbols of conquest--the amber lip plugs, and the green, shell-shaped ear pendants; the netted maguey fiber capes; the crested guan feather fans covered with troupial feathers at the bottom; the black staves with tassels of curve-billed thrasher feathers, with which they took the road to arrive here in mexico. (b.9 f.2 p.22). 6. auh inic hualmocuepaya anahuac: inic *hualotlatocaya*, inic hualhuia, ye oticteneuhque,. and how they returned from anauac, how they followed the roads, how they came back, we have already told. (b.9 f.3 p.31). imotlatocaya** 7. quitlaquentiaya amatica: in intopil, imotlatopil, in inenemia, in *imotlatocaya*,. they arrayed in paper their staves, their stout traveling staves with which they journeyed, with which they traveled. (b.1 f.2 p.41). iotlatocaya** 8. huellaixnextia, inic quitemoa, icochca, ineuhca, in icemilhuitiaya, in *iotlatocaya*, in inenca, in nencayotl, in nemoani, in nemoaloni, in otlatoconi,. he labored industriously to gain sustenance, his daily bread his trail rations, his livelihood, his maintenance, the source of life, the means of living, and provisions for traveling. (b.4 f.12 p.125). motlatocaya** 9. auh in nel otlatlan in motacatzin, in *motlatocaya*:. for verily thy provisions have ended--that with which one hath traveled. (b.4 f.6 p.62). ohuallotlatocac** 10. inic cecencalpan *ohuallotlatocac*, in ye mochi tonalli omoteneuh, in ipan otlatlatoloc, otlatlatolloac.. [so] each group proceeded on its way; all the day signs mentioned, of which there hath been discourse and discussion. (b.4 f.12 p.132). ohualotlatocatia** 11. inic inca *ohualotlatocatia*, inic ohualmacantia in inteucyo, in intlatocayo. thus, through them, their dignity, their patrimony, advanced [and] spread. (b.9 f.3 p.32). onotlatocaz** 12. auh quen *onotlatocaz*. but how will he go on his way? (b.2 f.13 p.216). otlatoca** 13. in yehuantin tlaamahuia, ihcuac pehua, in ihcuac ompehua, *otlatoca* painal.. those who rolled up the paper began at the time that paynal had begun to follow his path. (b.2 f.9 p.145). 14. auh in ye iuhqui, niman ye ic ompehua niman ye ic *otlatoca*,. and when this was done, thereupon he departed, thereupon he followed the road. (b.3 f.3 p.33). 15. nican za cencamatica, cententica onmonextia, in quenin cenca ye miyecpa omito, in iuhqui inenezca, itoloca, itenehualoca, itlatollo, itlatlatollo: in quenami cecemilhuitl tonalli ipan mochihua, in iuh tecpantihui, ic *otlatoca*: in oncan cualtitiuh, ihuan in amo cualli, in amo yeccan,. here, in only a word, a statement, is made plain, as hath many times been told, the manner of its significance, its account, exposition, history, and discussion; and in what manner the sign of each day came to pass, how they proceeded in order, so following along; those which came good; and the evil, of unfavorable time. (b.4 f.12 p.129). 16. auh in ohualquiz tonatiuh, in ye *otlatoca*, in ye cahuiltitihuitze, in ye coyohuitihuitze yaomicque in tiacahuan, in ye otlatocatiuh in yehuatl tonatiuh: niman mocencahua in cihua, moyaochichihua concui in chimalli, in tlahuiztli:. and when the sun had emerged, when already it had advanced along its course, when those who had died in war, the brave warriors, already came gladdening it, came giving cries for it, when this sun had already advanced along its course, then the women arrayed themselves, armed themselves as for war, took the shields, the devices. (b.6 f.13 p.163). 17. auh in ye iuhqui: in ihcuac ye omomanaco onteixtin, ye no cuele ahuel olini, *otlatoca*,. and when this was done, when both appeared [over the earth] together, they could, on the other hand, not move nor follow their paths. (b.7 f.1 p.7). 18. quin yehuatl huel colini, niman ye ic *otlatoca*.. at once he could move him, who thereupon went on his way. (b.7 f.1 p.8). 19. auh in ihcuac, ye *otlatoca*, zan ompa ommocauh in metztli:. and when he had already followed his course, only the moon remained there. (b.7 f.1 p.8). 20. ihuiyan, yocoxca, in *otlatoca*.. they followed the road slowly and carefully. (b.8 f.3 p.52). 21. auh inic nenemi, amo cemilhuitl: in *otlatoca*: zan yoaltica.. and so they journeyed not by day when they traveled, but by night. (b.9 f.2 p.18). 22. auh in ye *otlatoca*, in ye yauh painalton, niman ye ic quinhuica in tlatlaaltiltin, oncan quihualnamiquia in tlaamahuiaya, in inacaztlan cohuatlan, oncan momanaya in teoithualco.. and as he was already following the road, as painalton already went, thereupon they conducted the bathed slaves to the outskirts of [the calpulli of] coatlan, where they came upon the place of encirclement situated there at the temple courtyard. (b.9 f.5 p.64). 23. auh in axcan, macihui in aocmo cenca monequi tlahuiztli: ca zan ye iuh *otlatoca*, zan ye iuh motocatiuh in tlachihualli, in tlachichihualiztli:. but today, although devices are no longer much required, in the same way the making, the ornamenting, of articles proceed; they advance. (b.9 f.7 p.92). 24. za za ye yauh in ye yauh, ca zan ye *otlatoca*,. he goes to no purpose when he goes; he travels the road to no purpose. (b.10 f.4 p.60). 25. auh in ihcuac canapa hui, in *otlatoca*, za ce in teyacana, zan motecpana, za cempanti, ompa onmotztihui in tezcac in intzintempan mamantiuh:. and when they went somewhere, as they made their way, following a single leader, in order, in line, there they went looking into the mirror which [the one ahead] went bearing in the middle of his back. (b.10 f.10 p.173). 26. auh inic *otlatoca*, inic nenemi amo huel yauh in tlalnemiuhyan: hueli patlania in zacatl, in tlacotl, in tlein huapahuac.. and thus it advances, thus it travels: it cannot go on bare ground; it can fly on grass, on shrubs, on anything rough. (b.11 f.8 p.76). 27. inic nenemi zan motitihuana, inic *otlatoca* zan necoc motlaloa.. to travel, it just stretches itself out; to go along its way, it just runs on both ends. (b.11 f.8 p.79). 28. in ihcuac omacic, za onoc acampa *otlatoca*:. when mature, it only lies somewhere, where they travel the road. (b.11 f.8 p.79). 29. inic *otlatoca* mopetzcoa, auh in quenman zan momimiloa iuhquinma metlapilli:. as it travels, it slithers, and sometimes it only rolls like a mano. (b.11 f.8 p.82). 30. auh in campa *otlatoca* ompa ihyaxtiuh, cololhuitihui in zayolti, quicahuatztihui:. and wherever it travels the road, there it goes stinking; with it the flies go swarming, they go along buzzing. (b.11 f.9 p.83). 31. inic mitoa ehcacohuatl: in ihcuac *otlatoca* moquetztehua,. it is called hecacoatl because when it travels it raises itself erect. (b.11 f.9 p.83). 32. zan iyo xopan in nemi, auh inic nemi, inic *otlatoca* zan ixtotomahua, ahuic motlatlaloa.. only in the summer does it go about, and when it goes about, as it goes on its way, it just wanders aimlessly; it keeps running here and there. (b.11 f.9 p.88). 33. auh inic *otlatoca*, zan motecpana, mohuipana, patlahuatihui: anozo zan cempanti.. and as they travel along their way, they go in good order, in procession, in a wide stream or only in single file. (b.11 f.9 p.90). 34. inic *otlatoca*, patlahuatihui:. when they follow their path, they go in a wide stream. (b.11 f.9 p.91). 35. auh inic nenemi, inic *otlatoca* mocuecuelpachotiuh, mococototztlalia, iuhquinma itla quitamachihua.. and as it travels, as it goes its way, it goes by doubling itself, by looping itself, as if measuring something. (b.11 f.10 p.97). 36. auh in quenman zan motecpana inic *otlatoca*.. and sometimes they just form a line as they travel along. (b.11 f.10 p.100). 37. motoca, mopixoa, camahua, ciahua, poxcahui, monelhuayotia, nelhuayohua, tlapani, tlacati, yacaomi, huallaxiponoa, huallalticpacquiza, achichilacachti, itzmiquiltia, ce iix quihualquetza mozcaltia, mana, motitihuana, achi quitoca, tetzahua, chicahuac, *otlatoca*, mantiuh, mozcallotia, moquillotia, mahuazhuayotia, momatia, momaxallotia, momamaxallotia, momamatia, mozcallotia, izcalloa, momiyahuayotia, miahuayoa,. it is planted, sown; it matures; it is wetted, moistened; it forms roots; it takes root, bursts, germinates, sprouts, pushes up, emerges at the surface, forms a shoot, sends out a shoot, sets a node, grows, develops, extends, continues a little, grows firm, strengthens, grows bigger, enlarges, puts on terminal growth; forms foliage, leaves, branches, forms a crotch; forms crotches; forms branches in different places; puts on terminal growth, forms terminal growth, puts on terminal buds, forms terminal buds. (b.11 f.11 p.113). 38. mohuilana, mohuihuilana, *otlatoca*, moyacatlaza, moquillotia, mexoyotia, exoyoa.. it creeps, constantly creeps, travels, sends out a shoot, forms foliage, produces a bean, forms a bean. (b.11 f.21 p.210). 39. yehuatl in zan mani atl, in amo *otlatoca*,. it is water which is just flat, which does not run. (b.11 f.24 p.250). 40. ye ic *otlatoca*,. already they followed the road. (b.12 f.5 p.77). 41. auh in ye iuhqui in ye olini in ye *otlatoca* in espanoles: niman ye ic hualtzatzi in yaotlachixque:. and when this was done, when the spaniards already moved, already followed the road, thereupon the spies shouted out; (b.12 f.5 p.78). otlatocac** 42. auh quitoa, in manel mochintin teteo omicque, za nel amo ic olin, amo huel ic *otlatocac* in teotl tonatiuh:. and they say that though all the gods died, even then the sun god could not move and follow his path. (b.7 f.1 p.8). otlatocat** 43. xiccaqui: ayac aquetzqui, ayac cuecuenotl, ayac cuecuech, anozo mitoa cuecuetz in *otlatocat*:. note that no brazen one, no vain one, no dissolute one, or as is said, shameless one hath become ruler. (b.6 f.9 p.109). 44. inic matlactli omei tlatoani mochiuh tetzcoco, yehuatl in axcan tlatoani don hernando pimentel in *otlatocat* achi cempoalxihuitl. the thirteenth who became ruler of texcoco [is] the present ruler, don hernando pimentel, who hath governed nearly twenty years. (b.8 f.1 p.11). otlatocatihui** 45. zan moch iuh *otlatocatihui*,. so all went traveling in their course. (b.4 f.6 p.57). 46. ipampa in zaiyo tonalpehuallotl, achitzitzin tlatolli ic toconnextia, inic mottaz, in izquipa huetzi cempoalpa, inic cecencalpan *otlatocatihui*: ihuan hualmotoquilitihui:. hence a few short words concerning only the beginning day sign, whereby we make manifest how it was to be considered all the twenty times it fell, as each group marched along its course and went following in order. (b.4 f.9 p.96). otlatocatinemi** 47. zan quiztinemi, zan *otlatocatinemi*, zan panotinemi, zaza ye hui in ye hui,. they only went about traveling, wandering; they went about crossing the streams; they only went here and there. (b.10 f.10 p.171). otlatocatiuh** 48. zan iuh *otlatocatiuh*, cecexiuhtica, zan ic nemamacotiuh, zan necacahuililotiuh, nepapatlalotiuh, nepapatlalo:. just so they went following, each year; just so there was the coming to share [functions], just the going leaving [them] to others, the going to exchange [them]: there was the exchange [of functions]. (b.3 f.1 p.8). 49. in iuhqui cecentetl semana ic mopoaya, matlatlaquilhuitl omeei motlalitiuh, inic *otlatocatiuh* ce xihuitl:. just as each week was reckoned, so each of the thirteen-day periods went taking its place until one year had passed. (b.4 f.1 p.1). 50. auh in ohualquiz tonatiuh, in ye otlatoca, in ye cahuiltitihuitze, in ye coyohuitihuitze yaomicque in tiacahuan, in ye *otlatocatiuh* in yehuatl tonatiuh: niman mocencahua in cihua, moyaochichihua concui in chimalli, in tlahuiztli:. and when the sun had emerged, when already it had advanced along its course, when those who had died in war, the brave warriors, already came gladdening it, came giving cries for it, when this sun had already advanced along its course, then the women arrayed themselves, armed themselves as for war, took the shields, the devices. (b.6 f.13 p.163). 51. in ihcuac omozalo omihuictica tlahuatzalli: niman ixco onmoquetza in tlazoihhuitl, motecpantiuh, mozalotiuh, omihuictica onmoquetztiuh, zan iuh *otlatocatiuh*, mopepechotiuh in ihhuitl commopechtitiuh in tlahuatzalli:. when the glue-hardened feathers had been fastened down with the bone blade, then on its surface were set the precious feathers, going placed, glued in order, set in position by means of the bone blade; just so proceeding, the covering continuing, the feathers proceeding to cover the glue-hardened ones. (b.9 f.7 p.96). otlatocaya** 52. auh in ihcuac *otlatocaya* quetzalcoatl quitlapichilitihuia.. and when quetzalcoatl followed the road, they went blowing flutes for him. (b.3 f.3 p.33). 53. auh inic *otlatocaya* moyaochichiuhtihuia:. and as they traveled the road, they went girt for war. (b.9 f.2 p.17). otlatocaz** 54. iuh mitoa, quilmach intla aca mocehuiz otlica: ayoc huel yaz, ayo huel mehuaz, ayoc huel *otlatocaz*:. it was so said and affirmed that if any of them rested by the road, he could no longer go, rise up, nor travel. (b.4 f.10 p.104). otlatocazque** 55. cuix onteixtin *otlatocazque*,. will they perchance both together follow the same path? (b.7 f.1 p.7). timotlatocatilia** 56. auh ca tehuatzin, nohuian *timotlatocatilia*: ihuan in ixquich in cualli yectli, motechpatzinco quiza,. and thou rulest everywhere; and all that is good, proper, issueth from thee. (b.1 f.4 p.67). tonotlatocaz** 57. quilhuia. izcatqui inic *tonotlatocaz*,. they said to him: "here is wherewith thou wilt travel." (b.3 f.3 p.43). totlatocaz** 58. auh inic tiaz, inic *totlatocaz*, inic otli ticnamiquiz: amo titoloz, amo no taquetzaz: ca anezcalicayotl, quitoznequi:. "and as thou art to go, as thou art to travel the road, as thou art to come upon the road, thou art not to bow thy head, nor art thou to raise thy head in pride; it meaneth ill-breeding." (b.6 f.8 p.100). 59. auh inic ontlamantli: timimatiz in ipan monehnemiliz, ihuian, yocoxca, matca, tlamach in tiaz, in *totlatocaz*, in tinenemiz:. "and second: thou art to be prudent in thy travels; peacefully, quietly, tranquilly, deliberately art thou to go, to take to the road, to travel. (b.6 f.10 p.121). xotlatoca** 60. auh cenca moyolic in xiauh, in *xotlatoca*.. and go, follow the road, with utmost tranquility. (b.6 f.8 p.100). From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Thu May 26 22:20:34 2005 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:20:34 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin Message-ID: Jose, I think you are right to point out that to write a language alphabetically inherently implies a certain level of linguistic self-consciousness. And, of course, Chimalpahin was producing written langauge. Nevertheless, in spite of the project of colonial grammarians, general Nahuatl linguistic practice did not really develop in any kind of dialogue with a metadiscourse on language such as grammar. So merely the act of writing it down does not necessarily automatically make the language conform to foreign grammatical categories. John Sullivan's project in Zacatecas has been grappling precisely with this issue trying to come up with organic ways to conceptualize the language in order to facilitate a Nahuatl linguistic self-reflexiveness that does not of necessity depend on Spanish or English categories and concepts (please correct me John if I am misrepresenting the nature of your project). One might argue that this situation also characterized medieval and early modern Spanish linguistic practice among most sectors of society. And frankly, I'm not sure to what extent my argument about the relationship between the rigidity of formal grammatical categories and alphabetic writing is or is not universally valid across languages and cultures. But there was a long tradition of alphabetically written Spanish that had developed in relation to linguistic metadiscourses that involved grammar. Eventhough the first Spanish grammar appeared rather late, the conceptualization of language was still very much influenced by Latin grammar. After all, grammar was part of the trivium. But one can't help but suspect that if Nahuatl had pursued the phonographic option, of which they were clearly aware, and had developed a linguistic metadiscourse in dialogic relation to it, then their linguistic science may have looked very different from ours. In other words, perhaps Nahuatl has a different linguistic ontology regardless of whether or not you write it alphabetically. Of course, the materiality from which consciousness and language spring means that there will always be enough in common that we can certainly adapt our own linguistic metadiscourse (in a sense we have no other choice) to any language and in many cases it adapts really well, but don't you often feel that in some cases it just isn't always quite adequate? With regard to the possibility of the pun, actually, I just got so wrapped up in the morphological analysis that I forgot about that part of your message. First, I don't think we can read anything into the fact that "cecenteotlatoca" doesn't have a reflexive "mo" while the previous words do. The earlier "otlatoca" isn't reflexive either. I think there are semantic and grammatical reasons for this. The reason it does not have a "mo" is because they are not following themselves but rather their respective paths or each other as you suggest. The words malacachoa and panahuia are transitive verbs requiring objects, so they kind of have to use the reflexive "mo". He could have used an intransitive verb form like malacachihui to avoid using the reflexive object "mo", but then you wouldn't get the same sense of agency on the part of the celestial bodies or planes or whatever it is he is talking about, which is consistent with a Nahuatl cosmology that ascribes animacy to these kinds of things as indicated by the plural ending "me" on ilhuicame. The separation between the sequence of three fairly synonymous expressions from the final phrase would seem to be consistent with the attempt to sum it all up with the final phrase, which is also rather interesting. The "ynic izqui tlanepanoltitimani ilhuicame" means literally something like "they all lie spread out [mani] stacked up [nepanolli] in the heavens in that manner [ynic]". The nepanolli that is embedded there has the sense of things crossed, intersected, or piled up on top of one another. It is derived from the verb panoa which means "to cross." So, the word may convey both the notion of crossing in the sense of movement but also crossing in the sense of an overlapping or piling up. which is another reason why it seemed like it could have corresponded to his description of the European cosmology of concentric heavens. With regard to the question about the pun on "cecenteotlatoca", I don't think there is any phonological reason why you couldn't read it as a pun. The thing about puns, as you know, is that they don't have to be based on perfect homophony. However, I don't know how you could determine if it was actually intended to be a pun or if they ever thought of it in that way, by which I assume you mean that it was intended to be read as being polysemic. The fact that there was a tradition of pictographic punning certainly suggests that this kind of verbal punning went on. Is there any other indication in the text that calls attention to, or indicates such verbal puns in a more self-conscious way? Galen José Rabasa wrote: > Galen, > > Thanks for this most thorough explanation of the morphology of the > terms. I appreciate your indication about the limits of such gramatical > catgeories as adjetives, nouns and adverbs, and your underscoring that > oral speech has a more flexible and nebulous ontology that is not > subject to grammaticalization. But I wonder to what extent we speak of > Chimalpahin as someone who is not at least in this particular passage > merely reporting oral speech but developing a self-conscious written > Nahuatl. > > As you point out the otlatoca is attested by Molina, and figures earlier > in the passage. I cannot answer the question you pose as to the passage > from -tli in otli to -tla- in otlatoca. But perhaps someone else can say > something about it. Your silence regarding the possible pun suggests > that morphologically it makes no sense to derive cecen.teotl.tlatoa.ca, > "each one by god talk." Is this correct or does it not make sense > because of the context, but couldn't it be a parenthetical remark? I > know this is not the simplest of explanations; given the insistence on > the repetition of movement in "momamallacachotihui" (como se van > girando), mpopapanahuitihui (como se van sobrepasando), it would make > more sense to speak of cecenteotlatoca (como siguen unos a otros), but > note that the reflexive has been dropped and that a coma separates this > sequence from Ynic yzqui tlanepanoltitimani yluicame (como todos estan > juntos en el cielo). In short, if the the alternate morphological > analysis is correct, there could be a pun ¿no? If not what phonological > reason could be given to exclude the possibility. > > Jose > >> Jose, >> Rikke Marie beat me to the answer, and I think the translation is >> certainly correct, but I would add a couple of things and a question for >> Rikke Marie or anybody else. >> First, it is just interesting to note that Nahuat texts often make our >> job a lot easier, because as in the case you cite Nahuatl discoruse has >> a tendency to express the same idea repeatedly using a variety of >> different words. Such synonymous expressions are not always exactly the >> same, which helps give you a more complete picture of what is being >> conveyed. Nevertheless, when they provide a series of more or less >> synonymous expressions, it makes it easier to figure out any given one >> of them that may not be as morphologically transparent as the rest. >> With regard to the specific phrase you mention, it would seem to be >> clear that the "o" is from "ohtli" or "otli" meaning "road" or "path", >> and that otlatoca means to follow a path or a road. This is well >> attested. But I'm curious about the "tla" in this construction. Is it >> merely a transformation of the absolutive suffix "tli" in order to avoid >> a short word? Are there a lot of examples of this kind of thing? Or is >> there another explanation? Of course, the first thing that comes to mind >> is a kind of fossilized non-specific object pronoun (which is evident in >> some other verbs), but I really don't know, especially given the fact >> that it is clear that "toca" does not always appear with this object >> pronoun. So it certainly isn't always fossilized. I know this doesn't >> really pose a problem for translation, because "otlatoca" is well >> attested in other contexts, including the instance just a few words >> earlier in this same text. So this is just a question to satisfy the >> morphological rigor that Joe instilled me :-). >> With regard to "cecente[tl]", part of the problem is that to classify >> Nahuatl words as nouns, ajectives, and verbs is sometimes misleading. >> The point is that self-conscious grammar enters into a dialogic >> relationship with linguistic practice in ways that tend to codify >> language in clear cut ways that do not necessarily reflect the more >> flexible and nebulous linguistic ontology of unfettered oral speech that >> has not been subject to a process of self-conscious grammaticalization. >> So, although in some cases "cecente-" may seem to function as what we >> call an ajective, as Rikki Marie points out technically it is a noun >> because it has that noun root 'te' from 'tetl', and nouns (normally >> defined in Nahuatl as words that take absolutive suffixes) can be >> imbedded in verbs to function as either objects or adverbs as defined by >> modern grammatical categories. With the duplication of the "ce", the >> "cecente" might be rendered as "each one." The plural "ilhuicame" at the >> end seems to suggest that it is talking about celestial planes. (Is he >> talking here perhaps about the European model of concentric heavens?) So >> it seems to me that the phrase "cecenteotlatoca" could be understood as >> saying literally "They path-followed in an each-one like way" which >> would translate more eloquently in English as "Each one followed its >> path" or maybe even better "They followed their respective paths." >> Galen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Rikke Marie Olsen wrote: >> >>> Dear Jose >>> >>> About cecenteotlatoca. I would analyze it cè-cen-te-ò-tla-toca. I >>> think the >>> first cè is distributive. Centetl means simply one. ò is the root for >>> road. >>> Tla is the absolutive suffix, which is still attached because >>> nahauspeakers >>> dislike short words. Toca is the verb and means follow. All in all >>> You have >>> an incorporated noun (or two if You count centetl, which is actually a >>> numeral, but acts like a noun here because of tetl). >>> I would translate it: they follow different paths or routes. I haven't >>> looked at the rest of the sentence, so should probably be ajusted a bit. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Rikke Marie Olsen, >>> Student at the Departement of Native American Language and Culture, >>> University of Copenhagen. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Nahua language and culture discussion >>> [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] >>> On Behalf Of José Rabasa >>> Sent: 26. maj 2005 04:11 >>> To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >>> Subject: Chimalpahin >>> >>> Dear Listeros: >>> >>> A group of us in the Bay Area have a Nahuatl workshop in which we >>> have been reading Chimalpahin's Diario. We found the following >>> passage a bit difficult to sort out. It comes from that section in >>> which Chimalpahin compares Nahuatl and European language on eclipses. >>> The passage reads: >>> >>> "ynic otlatoca ynic momamallacachotihui ynic mopapanahuitihui ynic >>> cecenteotlatoca, ynic yzqui tlanepanoltitimani ylhuicame" (Rafael >>> Tena's edition p. 228). >>> >>> We are particularly undecided on how to read cecenteotlatoca. >>> Because of the earlier otlatoca (avanzar, andar) we thought that it >>> could be a combination of cecentetl and otlatoca but cecentl as an >>> adjetive could not modify a verb. The other option would be to read >>> cecen and teotlatoca (teotl.tlatoa.ca), which would translate as >>> "each one is god talk." This gets particularly heady given that the >>> European talk on the planets would amount to theology rather than >>> science, etc. etc., etc. Is this a pun? Any suggestions? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jose Rabasa >> > > From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Thu May 26 22:34:42 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 00:34:42 +0200 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <1117145860.42964b04be43c@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Dear Joe and Galen I belive my teacher Una Canger told me that the -tla in òtla actually is the pure form of the absolutive suffix. The -a- is normally not strong enough to hold and usually transforms to an -i-. But in this particular incorporation of òtli into ò-tla-toca, the -a- can hold its position. I think Joe is right about some forms being lexicalized to always appear with the inanimate object of -tla. But in this case that would give you two objects - first the incorporated root of ò- and second the inanimate object og -tla-. But -toca only takes one object...?! Rikke Marie -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of campbel at INDIANA.EDU Sent: 27. maj 2005 00:18 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Chimalpahin Quoting José Rabasa : > As you point out the otlatoca is attested by > Molina, and figures earlier in the passage. I > cannot answer the question you pose as to the > passage from -tli in otli to -tla- in otlatoca. > Tocayo, I collected some examples of "ohtlatoca" last night and I think I've cleaned out (most of) the irrelevant ones. Galen's commentary has covered beyond what I could have said when onicochmic. I just wanted to add a comment to the problem about the mysterious "tla". The active morphology of Nahuatl involves forms such as the following: ni-c-toca I follow him ni-tla-toca I follow something And, as in the case with other verbs, "tla-" sometimes fuses to form a new intransitive verb "tlatoca" (to follow or continue along). The noun stem "oh-" is then prefixed adverbially. "Tla-" fusion is sometimes recognizable by the placement of those adverbial nouns -- the position inside the adverbial noun (close to the verb) is an indication of fusion, just as is the reduplication of the "tla-", since objects don't reduplicate, but something fused and made into an integral part of the verb stem will. Saludos, Joe huallotlatocatiaque** 1. inic matlactli capitulo: oncan mitoa in quenin espa¤oles zan ihuian, huallalhuaccaquizque, *huallotlatocatiaque* ihuan in quenin moteuczoma quicauh in huei tecpan,. tenth chapter, in which it is told how quite slowly the spaniards came forth to dry land, [how] they followed along the road, and how moctezuma left the great palace; (b.12 f.2 p.27). hualotlatoca** 2. achtopa hualquiza in eztli, ic neci ca ye *hualotlatoca*, ye quihualtopehua in piltzintli:. first the blood comes out, which shows that the baby is about to follow, about to be forced out. (b.11 f.18 p.180). 3. auh in ohuallalhuacaquizque yequene ic huitze: in ye hualolinizque, in ye hualolini, in ye *hualotlatoca*, cenca necuitlahuiloque, mahuizmachoque,. and when the spaniards came forth to dry land, [when] finally they so came, when already they were to move, when already they moved, when already they followed the road, they were well cared for, they were held in esteem. (b.12 f.2 p.23). hualotlatocaque** 4. zan temac in huallatiaque, in *hualotlatocaque*,. it was completely in [the emissaries'] hands that they went along, that they followed the road along. (b.12 f.2 p.23). hualotlatocaya** 5. auh quin oncan maco: in inneoquichitol in apozonaltentetl, ihuan quetzalcoyolnacochtli, quetzalichayatl coxoli, ehcacehuaztli: zacuantica tlatzimpacholli, xahuactopilli, toztlapilollo, cuitlacochio, in ipan *hualotlatocaya*, inic hualahcia in nican mexico.. and then [and] there they were given their symbols of conquest--the amber lip plugs, and the green, shell-shaped ear pendants; the netted maguey fiber capes; the crested guan feather fans covered with troupial feathers at the bottom; the black staves with tassels of curve-billed thrasher feathers, with which they took the road to arrive here in mexico. (b.9 f.2 p.22). 6. auh inic hualmocuepaya anahuac: inic *hualotlatocaya*, inic hualhuia, ye oticteneuhque,. and how they returned from anauac, how they followed the roads, how they came back, we have already told. (b.9 f.3 p.31). imotlatocaya** 7. quitlaquentiaya amatica: in intopil, imotlatopil, in inenemia, in *imotlatocaya*,. they arrayed in paper their staves, their stout traveling staves with which they journeyed, with which they traveled. (b.1 f.2 p.41). iotlatocaya** 8. huellaixnextia, inic quitemoa, icochca, ineuhca, in icemilhuitiaya, in *iotlatocaya*, in inenca, in nencayotl, in nemoani, in nemoaloni, in otlatoconi,. he labored industriously to gain sustenance, his daily bread his trail rations, his livelihood, his maintenance, the source of life, the means of living, and provisions for traveling. (b.4 f.12 p.125). motlatocaya** 9. auh in nel otlatlan in motacatzin, in *motlatocaya*:. for verily thy provisions have ended--that with which one hath traveled. (b.4 f.6 p.62). ohuallotlatocac** 10. inic cecencalpan *ohuallotlatocac*, in ye mochi tonalli omoteneuh, in ipan otlatlatoloc, otlatlatolloac.. [so] each group proceeded on its way; all the day signs mentioned, of which there hath been discourse and discussion. (b.4 f.12 p.132). ohualotlatocatia** 11. inic inca *ohualotlatocatia*, inic ohualmacantia in inteucyo, in intlatocayo. thus, through them, their dignity, their patrimony, advanced [and] spread. (b.9 f.3 p.32). onotlatocaz** 12. auh quen *onotlatocaz*. but how will he go on his way? (b.2 f.13 p.216). otlatoca** 13. in yehuantin tlaamahuia, ihcuac pehua, in ihcuac ompehua, *otlatoca* painal.. those who rolled up the paper began at the time that paynal had begun to follow his path. (b.2 f.9 p.145). 14. auh in ye iuhqui, niman ye ic ompehua niman ye ic *otlatoca*,. and when this was done, thereupon he departed, thereupon he followed the road. (b.3 f.3 p.33). 15. nican za cencamatica, cententica onmonextia, in quenin cenca ye miyecpa omito, in iuhqui inenezca, itoloca, itenehualoca, itlatollo, itlatlatollo: in quenami cecemilhuitl tonalli ipan mochihua, in iuh tecpantihui, ic *otlatoca*: in oncan cualtitiuh, ihuan in amo cualli, in amo yeccan,. here, in only a word, a statement, is made plain, as hath many times been told, the manner of its significance, its account, exposition, history, and discussion; and in what manner the sign of each day came to pass, how they proceeded in order, so following along; those which came good; and the evil, of unfavorable time. (b.4 f.12 p.129). 16. auh in ohualquiz tonatiuh, in ye *otlatoca*, in ye cahuiltitihuitze, in ye coyohuitihuitze yaomicque in tiacahuan, in ye otlatocatiuh in yehuatl tonatiuh: niman mocencahua in cihua, moyaochichihua concui in chimalli, in tlahuiztli:. and when the sun had emerged, when already it had advanced along its course, when those who had died in war, the brave warriors, already came gladdening it, came giving cries for it, when this sun had already advanced along its course, then the women arrayed themselves, armed themselves as for war, took the shields, the devices. (b.6 f.13 p.163). 17. auh in ye iuhqui: in ihcuac ye omomanaco onteixtin, ye no cuele ahuel olini, *otlatoca*,. and when this was done, when both appeared [over the earth] together, they could, on the other hand, not move nor follow their paths. (b.7 f.1 p.7). 18. quin yehuatl huel colini, niman ye ic *otlatoca*.. at once he could move him, who thereupon went on his way. (b.7 f.1 p.8). 19. auh in ihcuac, ye *otlatoca*, zan ompa ommocauh in metztli:. and when he had already followed his course, only the moon remained there. (b.7 f.1 p.8). 20. ihuiyan, yocoxca, in *otlatoca*.. they followed the road slowly and carefully. (b.8 f.3 p.52). 21. auh inic nenemi, amo cemilhuitl: in *otlatoca*: zan yoaltica.. and so they journeyed not by day when they traveled, but by night. (b.9 f.2 p.18). 22. auh in ye *otlatoca*, in ye yauh painalton, niman ye ic quinhuica in tlatlaaltiltin, oncan quihualnamiquia in tlaamahuiaya, in inacaztlan cohuatlan, oncan momanaya in teoithualco.. and as he was already following the road, as painalton already went, thereupon they conducted the bathed slaves to the outskirts of [the calpulli of] coatlan, where they came upon the place of encirclement situated there at the temple courtyard. (b.9 f.5 p.64). 23. auh in axcan, macihui in aocmo cenca monequi tlahuiztli: ca zan ye iuh *otlatoca*, zan ye iuh motocatiuh in tlachihualli, in tlachichihualiztli:. but today, although devices are no longer much required, in the same way the making, the ornamenting, of articles proceed; they advance. (b.9 f.7 p.92). 24. za za ye yauh in ye yauh, ca zan ye *otlatoca*,. he goes to no purpose when he goes; he travels the road to no purpose. (b.10 f.4 p.60). 25. auh in ihcuac canapa hui, in *otlatoca*, za ce in teyacana, zan motecpana, za cempanti, ompa onmotztihui in tezcac in intzintempan mamantiuh:. and when they went somewhere, as they made their way, following a single leader, in order, in line, there they went looking into the mirror which [the one ahead] went bearing in the middle of his back. (b.10 f.10 p.173). 26. auh inic *otlatoca*, inic nenemi amo huel yauh in tlalnemiuhyan: hueli patlania in zacatl, in tlacotl, in tlein huapahuac.. and thus it advances, thus it travels: it cannot go on bare ground; it can fly on grass, on shrubs, on anything rough. (b.11 f.8 p.76). 27. inic nenemi zan motitihuana, inic *otlatoca* zan necoc motlaloa.. to travel, it just stretches itself out; to go along its way, it just runs on both ends. (b.11 f.8 p.79). 28. in ihcuac omacic, za onoc acampa *otlatoca*:. when mature, it only lies somewhere, where they travel the road. (b.11 f.8 p.79). 29. inic *otlatoca* mopetzcoa, auh in quenman zan momimiloa iuhquinma metlapilli:. as it travels, it slithers, and sometimes it only rolls like a mano. (b.11 f.8 p.82). 30. auh in campa *otlatoca* ompa ihyaxtiuh, cololhuitihui in zayolti, quicahuatztihui:. and wherever it travels the road, there it goes stinking; with it the flies go swarming, they go along buzzing. (b.11 f.9 p.83). 31. inic mitoa ehcacohuatl: in ihcuac *otlatoca* moquetztehua,. it is called hecacoatl because when it travels it raises itself erect. (b.11 f.9 p.83). 32. zan iyo xopan in nemi, auh inic nemi, inic *otlatoca* zan ixtotomahua, ahuic motlatlaloa.. only in the summer does it go about, and when it goes about, as it goes on its way, it just wanders aimlessly; it keeps running here and there. (b.11 f.9 p.88). 33. auh inic *otlatoca*, zan motecpana, mohuipana, patlahuatihui: anozo zan cempanti.. and as they travel along their way, they go in good order, in procession, in a wide stream or only in single file. (b.11 f.9 p.90). 34. inic *otlatoca*, patlahuatihui:. when they follow their path, they go in a wide stream. (b.11 f.9 p.91). 35. auh inic nenemi, inic *otlatoca* mocuecuelpachotiuh, mococototztlalia, iuhquinma itla quitamachihua.. and as it travels, as it goes its way, it goes by doubling itself, by looping itself, as if measuring something. (b.11 f.10 p.97). 36. auh in quenman zan motecpana inic *otlatoca*.. and sometimes they just form a line as they travel along. (b.11 f.10 p.100). 37. motoca, mopixoa, camahua, ciahua, poxcahui, monelhuayotia, nelhuayohua, tlapani, tlacati, yacaomi, huallaxiponoa, huallalticpacquiza, achichilacachti, itzmiquiltia, ce iix quihualquetza mozcaltia, mana, motitihuana, achi quitoca, tetzahua, chicahuac, *otlatoca*, mantiuh, mozcallotia, moquillotia, mahuazhuayotia, momatia, momaxallotia, momamaxallotia, momamatia, mozcallotia, izcalloa, momiyahuayotia, miahuayoa,. it is planted, sown; it matures; it is wetted, moistened; it forms roots; it takes root, bursts, germinates, sprouts, pushes up, emerges at the surface, forms a shoot, sends out a shoot, sets a node, grows, develops, extends, continues a little, grows firm, strengthens, grows bigger, enlarges, puts on terminal growth; forms foliage, leaves, branches, forms a crotch; forms crotches; forms branches in different places; puts on terminal growth, forms terminal growth, puts on terminal buds, forms terminal buds. (b.11 f.11 p.113). 38. mohuilana, mohuihuilana, *otlatoca*, moyacatlaza, moquillotia, mexoyotia, exoyoa.. it creeps, constantly creeps, travels, sends out a shoot, forms foliage, produces a bean, forms a bean. (b.11 f.21 p.210). 39. yehuatl in zan mani atl, in amo *otlatoca*,. it is water which is just flat, which does not run. (b.11 f.24 p.250). 40. ye ic *otlatoca*,. already they followed the road. (b.12 f.5 p.77). 41. auh in ye iuhqui in ye olini in ye *otlatoca* in espanoles: niman ye ic hualtzatzi in yaotlachixque:. and when this was done, when the spaniards already moved, already followed the road, thereupon the spies shouted out; (b.12 f.5 p.78). otlatocac** 42. auh quitoa, in manel mochintin teteo omicque, za nel amo ic olin, amo huel ic *otlatocac* in teotl tonatiuh:. and they say that though all the gods died, even then the sun god could not move and follow his path. (b.7 f.1 p.8). otlatocat** 43. xiccaqui: ayac aquetzqui, ayac cuecuenotl, ayac cuecuech, anozo mitoa cuecuetz in *otlatocat*:. note that no brazen one, no vain one, no dissolute one, or as is said, shameless one hath become ruler. (b.6 f.9 p.109). 44. inic matlactli omei tlatoani mochiuh tetzcoco, yehuatl in axcan tlatoani don hernando pimentel in *otlatocat* achi cempoalxihuitl. the thirteenth who became ruler of texcoco [is] the present ruler, don hernando pimentel, who hath governed nearly twenty years. (b.8 f.1 p.11). otlatocatihui** 45. zan moch iuh *otlatocatihui*,. so all went traveling in their course. (b.4 f.6 p.57). 46. ipampa in zaiyo tonalpehuallotl, achitzitzin tlatolli ic toconnextia, inic mottaz, in izquipa huetzi cempoalpa, inic cecencalpan *otlatocatihui*: ihuan hualmotoquilitihui:. hence a few short words concerning only the beginning day sign, whereby we make manifest how it was to be considered all the twenty times it fell, as each group marched along its course and went following in order. (b.4 f.9 p.96). otlatocatinemi** 47. zan quiztinemi, zan *otlatocatinemi*, zan panotinemi, zaza ye hui in ye hui,. they only went about traveling, wandering; they went about crossing the streams; they only went here and there. (b.10 f.10 p.171). otlatocatiuh** 48. zan iuh *otlatocatiuh*, cecexiuhtica, zan ic nemamacotiuh, zan necacahuililotiuh, nepapatlalotiuh, nepapatlalo:. just so they went following, each year; just so there was the coming to share [functions], just the going leaving [them] to others, the going to exchange [them]: there was the exchange [of functions]. (b.3 f.1 p.8). 49. in iuhqui cecentetl semana ic mopoaya, matlatlaquilhuitl omeei motlalitiuh, inic *otlatocatiuh* ce xihuitl:. just as each week was reckoned, so each of the thirteen-day periods went taking its place until one year had passed. (b.4 f.1 p.1). 50. auh in ohualquiz tonatiuh, in ye otlatoca, in ye cahuiltitihuitze, in ye coyohuitihuitze yaomicque in tiacahuan, in ye *otlatocatiuh* in yehuatl tonatiuh: niman mocencahua in cihua, moyaochichihua concui in chimalli, in tlahuiztli:. and when the sun had emerged, when already it had advanced along its course, when those who had died in war, the brave warriors, already came gladdening it, came giving cries for it, when this sun had already advanced along its course, then the women arrayed themselves, armed themselves as for war, took the shields, the devices. (b.6 f.13 p.163). 51. in ihcuac omozalo omihuictica tlahuatzalli: niman ixco onmoquetza in tlazoihhuitl, motecpantiuh, mozalotiuh, omihuictica onmoquetztiuh, zan iuh *otlatocatiuh*, mopepechotiuh in ihhuitl commopechtitiuh in tlahuatzalli:. when the glue-hardened feathers had been fastened down with the bone blade, then on its surface were set the precious feathers, going placed, glued in order, set in position by means of the bone blade; just so proceeding, the covering continuing, the feathers proceeding to cover the glue-hardened ones. (b.9 f.7 p.96). otlatocaya** 52. auh in ihcuac *otlatocaya* quetzalcoatl quitlapichilitihuia.. and when quetzalcoatl followed the road, they went blowing flutes for him. (b.3 f.3 p.33). 53. auh inic *otlatocaya* moyaochichiuhtihuia:. and as they traveled the road, they went girt for war. (b.9 f.2 p.17). otlatocaz** 54. iuh mitoa, quilmach intla aca mocehuiz otlica: ayoc huel yaz, ayo huel mehuaz, ayoc huel *otlatocaz*:. it was so said and affirmed that if any of them rested by the road, he could no longer go, rise up, nor travel. (b.4 f.10 p.104). otlatocazque** 55. cuix onteixtin *otlatocazque*,. will they perchance both together follow the same path? (b.7 f.1 p.7). timotlatocatilia** 56. auh ca tehuatzin, nohuian *timotlatocatilia*: ihuan in ixquich in cualli yectli, motechpatzinco quiza,. and thou rulest everywhere; and all that is good, proper, issueth from thee. (b.1 f.4 p.67). tonotlatocaz** 57. quilhuia. izcatqui inic *tonotlatocaz*,. they said to him: "here is wherewith thou wilt travel." (b.3 f.3 p.43). totlatocaz** 58. auh inic tiaz, inic *totlatocaz*, inic otli ticnamiquiz: amo titoloz, amo no taquetzaz: ca anezcalicayotl, quitoznequi:. "and as thou art to go, as thou art to travel the road, as thou art to come upon the road, thou art not to bow thy head, nor art thou to raise thy head in pride; it meaneth ill-breeding." (b.6 f.8 p.100). 59. auh inic ontlamantli: timimatiz in ipan monehnemiliz, ihuian, yocoxca, matca, tlamach in tiaz, in *totlatocaz*, in tinenemiz:. "and second: thou art to be prudent in thy travels; peacefully, quietly, tranquilly, deliberately art thou to go, to take to the road, to travel. (b.6 f.10 p.121). xotlatoca** 60. auh cenca moyolic in xiauh, in *xotlatoca*.. and go, follow the road, with utmost tranquility. (b.6 f.8 p.100). From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Thu May 26 23:03:25 2005 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 19:03:25 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin Message-ID: About puns, I wonder if another thing to consider is that puns and rebuses were a potential source of confusion to Europeans as soon as they started to look at picture writing. It seems as though there might have been more discussion about puns than about grammar at least at the start. In other words maybe people were asking "does this picture mean the same thing as that one" before they started asking "is that a noun or a verb"? Susan Original Message: ----------------- From: José Rabasa jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:11:02 -0700 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Chimalpahin Dear Listeros: A group of us in the Bay Area have a Nahuatl workshop in which we have been reading Chimalpahin's Diario. We found the following passage a bit difficult to sort out. It comes from that section in which Chimalpahin compares Nahuatl and European language on eclipses. The passage reads: "ynic otlatoca ynic momamallacachotihui ynic mopapanahuitihui ynic cecenteotlatoca, ynic yzqui tlanepanoltitimani ylhuicame" (Rafael Tena's edition p. 228). We are particularly undecided on how to read cecenteotlatoca. Because of the earlier otlatoca (avanzar, andar) we thought that it could be a combination of cecentetl and otlatoca but cecentl as an adjetive could not modify a verb. The other option would be to read cecen and teotlatoca (teotl.tlatoa.ca), which would translate as "each one is god talk." This gets particularly heady given that the European talk on the planets would amount to theology rather than science, etc. etc., etc. Is this a pun? Any suggestions? Thanks, Jose Rabasa -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Thu May 26 23:43:52 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:43:52 -0500 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <42964BB2.9030100@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: It occurred to me that since FUSION causes problems -- notably, a certain amount of opacity regarding the morphological structure of words, it might be helpful to send a list. After all, a thousand examples are worth one explanation! In the list below, fused "tla-"s are detached for the sake of grouping the words according to similar stems (and therefore semantically). One should perform a visual graft in order to appreciate the word structure. Saludos, Joe FUSION*** ai =nitlatla. hazer amenudo algo assi. . 71m1-12 axtli =tlatla. cauada tierra; cauada heredad; labrada tierra. . 71m1-5 cahuallotepoztlatlatquitl. herramental. . 71m1-13 cali tlatlatquitl. prouision de casa. . 71m1-17 cennepanolli =tla. mesturada cosa. . 71m1-15 chicotlatlatoa =ni. desuariar el enfermo. . 71m1-8 chihua =nitlatla. hazer amenudo algo assi. . 71m1-12 cochtlapiqui =mo. el que finge que esta durmiendo. . 71m2-10 cochtlapiquiani =mo. el que finge que esta durmiendo. . 71m2-10 cua , tlatla-. each one of them eats; each one eats; they eat repeatedly. . b.12 f.5 cuacualiztli =tlatla. pasto el acto de pacer. . 71m1-16 cuicuilia =nitlatla. mondar algo como garuan‡os o arroz. . 71m1-15 cuicuilicayotl =tlatla. limpiaduras. . 71m1-14 cuicuililiztli =tlatla. mondaduras desta manera. . 71m1-15 cuililli =tlatla. mondada cosa assi. . 71m1-15 cuilontiani =te. puto que haze. . 55m-16 cuiltiani =tetlatla. prestador assi. . 71m1-17 cuiltilli =tetlatla. prestado enesta manera. . 71m1-17 ehuatlapitza =n. follar. . 71m1-11 huallaaquia =ni. pujar en almoneda. . 71m1-18 huallaaquiliztli. puja en almoneda. . 71m1-18 huampoyotl =te [scribal error: ??poss--abs evidence for fusion: 55m]. compa¤ia assi. . 55m-3 huecauhtica otlatocani. peregrino mucho tiempo. . 55m-15 huellacatlacua. it eats like a human being. . b.11 f.2 huellamati =ani. padecer. . 55m-15 huetzquiti =tetlatla. iuglar. . 71m1-13 ichtacatlacaqui =n. escuchar de secreto. . 71m1-10 ichtacatlacaquiliztli. assechan‡a tal. . 55m-1 ichtacatlacua =n. comer por los rincones. . 71m1-5 icuania =nitlatla. mouer amenudo. . 71m1-15 ihua =nitlatla. embiar a diuersas partes mensajeros. . 71m1-9 ihualtin =tlatla. embiados desta manera. . 71m1-9 ilcahuani =tlatla. desacordado. . 55m-5 ilhuitlacaquitia =nite. echar la fiesta. . 71m1-9 ilhuitlalhuia =nite. echar la fiesta. . 71m1-9 ilnamiqui =nitlatla. pensar muchas vezes. . 71m1-17 ilnamiquiliztli =tlatla. pensamiento assi. . 71m1-17 itlania =ninotlatla. mendigar el pobre. . 55m-13 itlanili =tetlatla. pedigue¤o. . 71m1-17 itlaniliani =tetlatla. pedigue¤o. . 71m1-17 [i]tta , tlatla-. they look on. . b.2 f.8 itta =nitetlatla. mirar lo que los otros hazen. . 71m1-15 ittilia =ninotlatla. mirarse las partes vergon‡asas. . 71m1-15 itzomia =nitlatla. bufar el gato o cosa semenjante. . 55m-2 itzomia =tlatla. bufar el ga From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri May 27 00:01:12 2005 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 19:01:12 -0500 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <1117151032.42965f387297a@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Joe, for the "one picture, thousand words". Yes, Rikke, the tl(a) of your "otla" is not the same tl as in ohtli 'road'. As Joe explailned, your "o-" is the "road," and it modifies the following verb, tlatoca, i.e., "o-" tells what kind of following is going on: "roadly- following". There's no grammatical or phonological basis for ohtli going to ohtla and then hooking up with toca. Best, Michael Quoting campbel at indiana.edu: > It occurred to me that since FUSION causes problems -- notably, a certain > amount of opacity regarding the morphological structure of words, it might > be > helpful to send a list. After all, a thousand examples are worth one > explanation! > > In the list below, fused "tla-"s are detached for the sake of grouping > the > words according to similar stems (and therefore semantically). One should > perform a visual graft in order to appreciate the word structure. > > Saludos, > > Joe > > > > FUSION*** > > ai =nitlatla. hazer amenudo algo assi. . > 71m1-12 > axtli =tlatla. cauada tierra; cauada heredad; labrada tierra. p51-a:yi-l2 +fusion>. 71m1-5 > cahuallotepoztlatlatquitl. herramental. itqui-l2 +fusion>. 71m1-13 > cali tlatlatquitl. prouision de casa. +l.for.ll +fusion>. 71m1-17 > cennepanolli =tla. mesturada cosa. +fusion>. 71m1-15 > chicotlatlatoa =ni. desuariar el enfermo. +fusion>. 71m1-8 > chihua =nitlatla. hazer amenudo algo assi. +fusion>. 71m1-12 > cochtlapiqui =mo. el que finge que esta durmiendo. pi:qui1 +fusion>. 71m2-10 > cochtlapiquiani =mo. el que finge que esta durmiendo. p51-pi:qui1-caus-ni1 +fusion>. 71m2-10 > cua , tlatla-. each one of them eats; each one eats; they eat > repeatedly. . b.12 f.5 > cuacualiztli =tlatla. pasto el acto de pacer. +fusion>. 71m1-16 > cuicuilia =nitlatla. mondar algo como garuan‡os o arroz. p51-dupl-cui-ben +fusion>. 71m1-15 > cuicuilicayotl =tlatla. limpiaduras. yo:tl1 +fusion>. 71m1-14 > cuicuililiztli =tlatla. mondaduras desta manera. ben-liz +fusion>. 71m1-15 > cuililli =tlatla. mondada cosa assi. . > 71m1-15 > cuilontiani =te. puto que haze. +fusion>. 55m-16 > cuiltiani =tetlatla. prestador assi. +fusion>. 71m1-17 > cuiltilli =tetlatla. prestado enesta manera. l1 +fusion>. 71m1-17 > ehuatlapitza =n. follar. . 71m1-11 > huallaaquia =ni. pujar en almoneda. +fusion>. 71m1-18 > huallaaquiliztli. puja en almoneda. +fusion>. 71m1-18 > huampoyotl =te [scribal error: ??poss--abs evidence for fusion: 55m]. > compa¤ia assi. . 55m-3 > huecauhtica otlatocani. peregrino mucho tiempo. ca:1a ohtli-p51-toca2-ni1 +fusion aux11a>. 55m-15 > huellacatlacua. it eats like a human being. +fusion>. b.11 f.2 > huellamati =ani. padecer. . 55m-15 > huetzquiti =tetlatla. iuglar. +fusion>. 71m1-13 > ichtacatlacaqui =n. escuchar de secreto. +fusion>. 71m1-10 > ichtacatlacaquiliztli. assechan‡a tal. +fusion>. 55m-1 > ichtacatlacua =n. comer por los rincones. +fusion>. 71m1-5 > icuania =nitlatla. mouer amenudo. . > 71m1-15 > ihua =nitlatla. embiar a diuersas partes mensajeros. ihua: +fusion>. 71m1-9 > ihualtin =tlatla. embiados desta manera. +fusion>. 71m1-9 > ilcahuani =tlatla. desacordado. . > 55m-5 > ilhuitlacaquitia =nite. echar la fiesta. caus02 +fusion>. 71m1-9 > ilhuitlalhuia =nite. echar la fiesta. +fusion>. 71m1-9 > ilnamiqui =nitlatla. pensar muchas vezes. +fusion>. 71m1-17 > ilnamiquiliztli =tlatla. pensamiento assi. liz +fusion>. 71m1-17 > itlania =ninotlatla. mendigar el pobre. ben +fusion>. 55m-13 > itlanili =tetlatla. pedigue¤o. +fusion>. 71m1-17 > itlaniliani =tetlatla. pedigue¤o. +fusion>. 71m1-17 > [i]tta , tlatla-. they look on. . b.2 f.8 > itta =nitetlatla. mirar lo que los otros hazen. itta +fusion>. 71m1-15 > ittilia =ninotlatla. mirarse las partes vergon‡asas. p51-itta-ben +fusion>. 71m1-15 > itzomia =nitlatla. bufar el gato o cosa semenjante. ihtzo:mia: +fusion>. 55m-2 > itzomia =tlatla. bufar el ga > From h.kammler at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Thu May 26 23:50:44 2005 From: h.kammler at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (Henry Kammler) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 01:50:44 +0200 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <20050526141640.278B63A1CB1@user5.cybercity.dk> Message-ID: Hola, if |cecenteotlatoca| is derived from /tla'toa/ it would rather translate as "had talked in reference to their respective gods" (or?) "god talk" would be /teotlatolli/ with root-final /l/ = *|cecenteotlatolca| "each by god talk", I guess. Regarding short incorporated nominal roots: compare the following forms: /o'tlatoka/ = "follow a path" < /o' -tli/ /âtlakwi/ = "fetch water" < /â -tl/ To me this looks like the indefinite object prefix /tla-/ is inserted, rather than /tla/ derived from /-tl(i)/. We also find a reduplicated form /âtlatlakwi/ (cf. Seler's glossary) "fetch lots of water" ("fetch repeatedly"?) which seems to support this. *If* this is the same /tla/, I'm not sure. I think Galen touched upon an important issue: by what processes of analysis do we establish our categories (say, "word classes")? Lacking alternatives, we do use "traditional" terms rooted in Latin grammar writing and established through a long genealogy of Nahuatl scholars. While doing so, we should be aware that these terms *may be* crutches rather than devices of analysis. As useful as our terminology is, it might blur our sight for unexpected phenomena. I wonder in what terms we would talk about Nahuatl if it were among the Papuan languages "discovered" 30-40 years ago... Mâ niwîya Henry Kammler Univ. of Frankfurt From h.kammler at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Fri May 27 00:07:22 2005 From: h.kammler at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (Henry Kammler) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 02:07:22 +0200 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <20050526223446.B36C4941CE@user3.cybercity.dk> Message-ID: OK, diachronically, it makes total sense if *-tla is the underlying form of /-tl(i)/ and then occurs in "fossilized" forms in compositions with monosyllabic roots like /o'tlatoka/ and /âtlakwi/. But then, what about reduplicated /âtlatlakwi/? Mâ nikochi Henry K. **************** Rikke Marie wrote: I belive my teacher Una Canger told me that the -tla in òtla actually is the pure form of the absolutive suffix. The -a- is normally not strong enough to hold and usually transforms to an -i-. But in this particular incorporation of òtli into ò-tla-toca, the -a- can hold its position. From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Fri May 27 04:46:52 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 23:46:52 -0500 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <20050526223446.B36C4941CE@user3.cybercity.dk> Message-ID: Dear Rikke Marie, I'm sure that when Una was talking about "tla" and "tli", she was referring to the historical evolution of the form of the absolutive suffix in final position. I doubt that she was referring to an internal "tla", since nouns don't retain their absolutive suffixes when they are non-final and either compounded or embedded in verbs. Of course, there are some noteworthy exceptional forms where a part of the absolutive suffix "peeks through" -- as in "altepetl" or in the placename "Alpoyecan". But there is a reason why we consider these forms **exceptional**! That's because the absolutive suffix doesn't appear word-internally! I didn't say that "tlatoca" involves an inanimate object of -tla. What I said was that the "tla-" (which is an object at some stage of the word derivation -- and is an object in dynamically form verbs) is fused to the verbstem, creating, at the surface level, an intransitive unit. Thus, there are not *two* noun elements involved before the verbstem, only one: "oh-". *But* since "tlatoca" is intransitive, "oh-" does not fulfill the role of object -- it acts adverbially, just as many nouns function before intransitive verbstems (e.g., "ni-coyo-nehnemi", 'I crawl on all fours'). So "toca doesn't have two objects, or even one object -- it has no objects. Saludos, Joe Quoting Rikke Marie Olsen : > Dear Joe and Galen > > I belive my teacher Una Canger told me that the -tla in òtla actually is the > pure form of the absolutive suffix. The -a- is normally not strong enough to > hold and usually transforms to an -i-. But in this particular incorporation > of òtli into ò-tla-toca, the -a- can hold its position. > > I think Joe is right about some forms being lexicalized to always appear > with the inanimate object of -tla. But in this case that would give you two > objects - first the incorporated root of ò- and second the inanimate object > og -tla-. But -toca only takes one object...?! > > Rikke Marie > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] > On Behalf Of campbel at INDIANA.EDU > Sent: 27. maj 2005 00:18 > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Re: Chimalpahin > > Quoting José Rabasa : > > > As you point out the otlatoca is attested by > > Molina, and figures earlier in the passage. I > > cannot answer the question you pose as to the > > passage from -tli in otli to -tla- in otlatoca. > > > > > Tocayo, > > I collected some examples of "ohtlatoca" last night and I think I've > cleaned > out (most of) the irrelevant ones. Galen's commentary has covered beyond > what I > could have said when onicochmic. I just wanted to add a comment to the > problem > about the mysterious "tla". The active morphology of Nahuatl involves > forms > such as the following: > > ni-c-toca I follow him > > ni-tla-toca I follow something > > And, as in the case with other verbs, "tla-" sometimes fuses to form a new > intransitive verb "tlatoca" (to follow or continue along). The noun stem > "oh-" > is then prefixed adverbially. "Tla-" fusion is sometimes recognizable by > the > placement of those adverbial nouns -- the position inside the adverbial noun > (close to the verb) is an indication of fusion, just as is the reduplication > of > the "tla-", since objects don't reduplicate, but something fused and made > into > an integral part of the verb stem will. > > Saludos, > > Joe > > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri May 27 10:59:02 2005 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 05:59:02 -0500 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <1117169212.4296a63c2bc8a@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Well put! Thanks for the grammar lesson. Michael Quoting campbel at indiana.edu: > Dear Rikke Marie, > > I'm sure that when Una was talking about "tla" and "tli", she was > referring > to the historical evolution of the form of the absolutive suffix in final > position. I doubt that she was referring to an internal "tla", since nouns > don't retain their absolutive suffixes when they are non-final and either > compounded or embedded in verbs. Of course, there are some noteworthy > exceptional forms where a part of the absolutive suffix "peeks through" -- as > in > "altepetl" or in the placename "Alpoyecan". But there is a reason why we > consider these forms **exceptional**! That's because the absolutive suffix > doesn't appear word-internally! > > I didn't say that "tlatoca" involves an inanimate object of -tla. What I > said was that the "tla-" (which is an object at some stage of the word > derivation -- and is an object in dynamically form verbs) is fused to the > verbstem, creating, at the surface level, an intransitive unit. Thus, there > are > not *two* noun elements involved before the verbstem, only one: "oh-". > *But* > since "tlatoca" is intransitive, "oh-" does not fulfill the role of object > -- > it acts adverbially, just as many nouns function before intransitive > verbstems > (e.g., "ni-coyo-nehnemi", 'I crawl on all fours'). So "toca doesn't have > two > objects, or even one object -- it has no objects. > > Saludos, > > Joe > > Quoting Rikke Marie Olsen : > > > Dear Joe and Galen > > > > I belive my teacher Una Canger told me that the -tla in òtla actually is > the > > pure form of the absolutive suffix. The -a- is normally not strong enough > to > > hold and usually transforms to an -i-. But in this particular > incorporation > > of òtli into ò-tla-toca, the -a- can hold its position. > > > > I think Joe is right about some forms being lexicalized to always appear > > with the inanimate object of -tla. But in this case that would give you > two > > objects - first the incorporated root of ò- and second the inanimate > object > > og -tla-. But -toca only takes one object...?! > > > > Rikke Marie > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Nahua language and culture discussion > [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] > > On Behalf Of campbel at INDIANA.EDU > > Sent: 27. maj 2005 00:18 > > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > > Subject: Re: Chimalpahin > > > > Quoting José Rabasa : > > > > > As you point out the otlatoca is attested by > > > Molina, and figures earlier in the passage. I > > > cannot answer the question you pose as to the > > > passage from -tli in otli to -tla- in otlatoca. > > > > > > > > > Tocayo, > > > > I collected some examples of "ohtlatoca" last night and I think I've > > cleaned > > out (most of) the irrelevant ones. Galen's commentary has covered beyond > > what I > > could have said when onicochmic. I just wanted to add a comment to the > > problem > > about the mysterious "tla". The active morphology of Nahuatl involves > > forms > > such as the following: > > > > ni-c-toca I follow him > > > > ni-tla-toca I follow something > > > > And, as in the case with other verbs, "tla-" sometimes fuses to form a new > > intransitive verb "tlatoca" (to follow or continue along). The noun stem > > "oh-" > > is then prefixed adverbially. "Tla-" fusion is sometimes recognizable by > > the > > placement of those adverbial nouns -- the position inside the adverbial > noun > > (close to the verb) is an indication of fusion, just as is the > reduplication > > of > > the "tla-", since objects don't reduplicate, but something fused and made > > into > > an integral part of the verb stem will. > > > > Saludos, > > > > Joe > > > > > From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Fri May 27 13:37:06 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:37:06 +0200 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <1117191542.4296fd7613a0e@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I agree, Michael. Joe, you may well be right. However, I didn't say that it wasn't an exceptional form to have òtli with its original absolutive suffix incorporated into -toca. Obviously it is. But as we already discussed, it is not unprecedented: altepetl, atli (to drink water), atlacui. Michel Launey backs you up in that you can have a monotransitive form with a fossilized or fused tla, and still have a nominal root. In fact the nominal root can still function as an object because the -tla looses its right as an object in these cases. Where I'm not entirely convinced yet is where I don't have any examples of tlatoca without the ò-. If it is in fact a fossilized form in classical nahuatl, it should exist in the original documents. I looked at Eisinger's Index to Florentine Codex, Molina's dictionary, Carochi and Michel Launey, and was not able to find a form of tlatoca without the ò-. Also I tried to find it with other nominal roots, as I figured you could follow other things than roads, but still no hit. Does anyone have any examples of the verb tlatoca (in the sense of following something) from an original source? Rikke Marie Ps. Una actually did talk about the internal -tla-, because we discussed the word òtlatoca, as it appears in Florentine Codex 8 (in the story of Nanahuatzin and Teucziztecatl turning into the sun and the moon). -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Sent: 27. maj 2005 12:59 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Chimalpahin Well put! Thanks for the grammar lesson. Michael Quoting campbel at indiana.edu: > Dear Rikke Marie, > > I'm sure that when Una was talking about "tla" and "tli", she was > referring > to the historical evolution of the form of the absolutive suffix in final > position. I doubt that she was referring to an internal "tla", since nouns > don't retain their absolutive suffixes when they are non-final and either > compounded or embedded in verbs. Of course, there are some noteworthy > exceptional forms where a part of the absolutive suffix "peeks through" -- as > in > "altepetl" or in the placename "Alpoyecan". But there is a reason why we > consider these forms **exceptional**! That's because the absolutive suffix > doesn't appear word-internally! > > I didn't say that "tlatoca" involves an inanimate object of -tla. What I > said was that the "tla-" (which is an object at some stage of the word > derivation -- and is an object in dynamically form verbs) is fused to the > verbstem, creating, at the surface level, an intransitive unit. Thus, there > are > not *two* noun elements involved before the verbstem, only one: "oh-". > *But* > since "tlatoca" is intransitive, "oh-" does not fulfill the role of object > -- > it acts adverbially, just as many nouns function before intransitive > verbstems > (e.g., "ni-coyo-nehnemi", 'I crawl on all fours'). So "toca doesn't have > two > objects, or even one object -- it has no objects. > > Saludos, > > Joe > > Quoting Rikke Marie Olsen : > > > Dear Joe and Galen > > > > I belive my teacher Una Canger told me that the -tla in òtla actually is > the > > pure form of the absolutive suffix. The -a- is normally not strong enough > to > > hold and usually transforms to an -i-. But in this particular > incorporation > > of òtli into ò-tla-toca, the -a- can hold its position. > > > > I think Joe is right about some forms being lexicalized to always appear > > with the inanimate object of -tla. But in this case that would give you > two > > objects - first the incorporated root of ò- and second the inanimate > object > > og -tla-. But -toca only takes one object...?! > > > > Rikke Marie > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Nahua language and culture discussion > [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] > > On Behalf Of campbel at INDIANA.EDU > > Sent: 27. maj 2005 00:18 > > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > > Subject: Re: Chimalpahin > > > > Quoting José Rabasa : > > > > > As you point out the otlatoca is attested by > > > Molina, and figures earlier in the passage. I > > > cannot answer the question you pose as to the > > > passage from -tli in otli to -tla- in otlatoca. > > > > > > > > > Tocayo, > > > > I collected some examples of "ohtlatoca" last night and I think I've > > cleaned > > out (most of) the irrelevant ones. Galen's commentary has covered beyond > > what I > > could have said when onicochmic. I just wanted to add a comment to the > > problem > > about the mysterious "tla". The active morphology of Nahuatl involves > > forms > > such as the following: > > > > ni-c-toca I follow him > > > > ni-tla-toca I follow something > > > > And, as in the case with other verbs, "tla-" sometimes fuses to form a new > > intransitive verb "tlatoca" (to follow or continue along). The noun stem > > "oh-" > > is then prefixed adverbially. "Tla-" fusion is sometimes recognizable by > > the > > placement of those adverbial nouns -- the position inside the adverbial > noun > > (close to the verb) is an indication of fusion, just as is the > reduplication > > of > > the "tla-", since objects don't reduplicate, but something fused and made > > into > > an integral part of the verb stem will. > > > > Saludos, > > > > Joe > > > > > From jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Fri May 27 17:35:28 2005 From: jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Rabasa?=) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:35:28 -0700 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20050527010706.021e42d0@popmail.server.uni-frankfurt.de> Message-ID: Dear Galen and Henry, First, I want to thank Henry for pointing out that god-talk would not have the verb-form tlatoa but the nominal-form teotlatolli. This leads me to the question of the terms we use for speaking about Nahautl, the issue that Galen raised with respect to my observation that adjectives cannot modify verbs, an observation that missed what Rikke said about the function of centetl as a noun. Henry points out that the terms we used derive from Latin grammar, to which I would add that Latin provided throughout the Middle Ages the "scientific" metalanguage for speaking about language. Grammar had a closer meaning to logic than to a mere arte de la lengua. The traces of this metalinguistic practice can be found in modern semiotics--take the concept of sign for starters. What guarantees that the terms we use today to describe non-European languages does not miss "unexpected phenomena" and might very well produce a conceptual formulation that transforms the original language through it linguistic reduction (in sixteenth-century understanding as ordering) just as Carochi did in his Arte? If I recall correctly, this would be an instance of what Sapir called the "anthropological mill." Galen hits the mark when he asks " but don't you often feel that in some cases it just isn't always quite adequate?" And Galen is absolutely correct when he says that a Nahuatl "linguistic science would have looked very different from ours." Does a metalanguage require a phonographic form? Couldn't we imagine a community of speakers using their everyday language to speak about language? Or, is it necessary that a given society possess a "scientific" metalanguage, as was the case of Latin in Europe, to develop an awareness of its speaking forms? Now, Galen speaks of grammaticality as bound by a written grammar. I wonder, however, if it doesn't make sense to speak of a language possessing a grammar regardless of it systematic reduction to a written grammar. We could then speak of different degrees of refinement and complexity of speech in which a certain grammaticality and elegance might be considered exemplary. This was clearly the objective of Olmos, Sahagun, Juan Bautista, and Carochi, to just mention the most prominent. Now, it might be the case that in Nahuatl it is common for what we call adjectives to modify verbs, but as far as I know this has not been extensively documented. In studying Chimalpahin we should consider that he was knowledgeable of the grammars, vocabularios, and other tools that the Franciscans had devised in the course of the sixteenth century. I don't see why his style is not building on the Nahuatl literature that the missionaires had written. I am reading Chimlaphain not only as someone who used the Latin alphabet, hence wrote letters, but as someone who was producing a written Nahuatl--not a mere transcription or reproduction of speech--that is, someone who was writing as a Nahuatl letrado. In this regard to speak of him as "oral" would miss the objective of producing a written language with its own rules, styles, and forms, which I believe is what Chimalpahin was self-consciously aiming at. Jose >Hola, > >if |cecenteotlatoca| is derived from /tla'toa/ >it would rather translate as "had talked in >reference to their respective gods" (or?) >"god talk" would be /teotlatolli/ with >root-final /l/ = *|cecenteotlatolca| "each by >god talk", I guess. > >Regarding short incorporated nominal roots: >compare the following forms: >/o'tlatoka/ = "follow a path" < /o' -tli/ >/âtlakwi/ = "fetch water" < /â -tl/ > >To me this looks like the indefinite object >prefix /tla-/ is inserted, rather than /tla/ >derived from /-tl(i)/. We also find a >reduplicated form /âtlatlakwi/ (cf. Seler's >glossary) "fetch lots of water" ("fetch >repeatedly"?) which seems to support this. *If* >this is the same /tla/, I'm not sure. > >I think Galen touched upon an important issue: >by what processes of analysis do we establish >our categories (say, "word classes")? Lacking >alternatives, we do use "traditional" terms >rooted in Latin grammar writing and established >through a long genealogy of Nahuatl scholars. >While doing so, we should be aware that these >terms *may be* crutches rather than devices of >analysis. As useful as our terminology is, it >might blur our sight for unexpected phenomena. I >wonder in what terms we would talk about Nahuatl >if it were among the Papuan languages >"discovered" 30-40 years ago... > >Mâ niwîya >Henry Kammler >Univ. of Frankfurt From gvaldana at YAHOO.COM Fri May 27 22:48:51 2005 From: gvaldana at YAHOO.COM (Gerardo Aldana) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:48:51 -0700 Subject: Sextants? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Hola Nahuat-leros, first I apologize that my question contains none of the linguistic sophistication of the last discussion that was derived from an astronomical reference (re: Chimalpahin--although superficially (given my knowledge base), there may be a connection in the line quoted below containing the term "teutlatollj" cf. H Kammler's remarks). In fact, my question comes from utter ignorance. Be warned. In "Aztec Thought and Culture", Le�n-Portilla makes an intriguing statement referring to Sahag�n's "Colloquios y doctrina christiana": "It is said that the astronomers used their hands in the manner of sextants to measure the movements of the stars. They could calculate with precision the exact time the sun would rise and set each day." (paperback edition, 1990, pp. 27-28) The reason this is important to me is that I have been working (mostly with Classic Maya astronomy, iconography, and hieroglyphic texts) on an argument concerning the practice of Mesoamerican celestial observation. Naturally, I start with Nuttall's (and Aveni's) recognition of the Central Mexican codex imagery showing two crossed sticks functioning as an observational instrument, but I haven't done much else with Central Mexican sources here (ok, so there's also a connection to Netzahualpilli's 'observation deck' (via Torquemada, via Aveni)). In my interpretation, though, (differing from Aveni's), the codex images of hands on sticks (with star icons on the fingertips) fit right into the same understanding of the crossed sticks instrument. So I hope its clear that Le�n-Portilla's quote is of some importance. Here's the problem. Le�n-Portilla's reference is to Sahag�n via Walter Lehmann, "Sterbende G�tter und Christliche Heilsbotschaft" (Stuttgart, 1949), which is a Nahuatl transcription with German translation. My German language consultant (this is what I get for trying to get by only with Romance languages...) claims that Le�n-Portilla's reference is not to be found in the German translation (and I haven't found such a reference in Spanish translations of the Nahuatl). Logically, then, the reference to a hand as a sextant would have to come from the Nahuatl text itself, which I quote below. Any takers on Le�n-Portilla's reference here? Lehmann, p 96: B Auh inhin totecujyoane, ca oncate in ocno techiacana, in techitquj intechmama ynjpampa in tlaiecultilo, ca in toteou� ynjntlamaceuhcav� cujtlapillj ahtlapallj in tlamacazque, in tlenamacaque. Lehmann, p. 97: auh in quequetzcova mjtoa. in tlatolmatinjme, auh in jntequjuh in qujmocujtlauja in ioalli in cemjlhuitl, in copaltemaliztli, in tlenamaqujliztlj in vitztlj in acxoiatl, in ne�oliztli. in qujtta in qujmocujtlauja yn johtlatoquiliz in jnematacacholiz in ilhujcatl, in iuh iovalli xelivi. Auh in quitzticate, in qujpouhticate, inqujtlatlazticate in amoxtlj. in tlilli, in tlapalli in tlacujlolli quitqujticate. Ca iehoantin techitqujticate, techiacana, techotlatoltia: iehoantin qujtecpana injuh vetzi ce xivitl iniuh otlatoca in tonalpoallj, auh in cecempoallapoallj qujmocujtlauja, iehoantin yntenjz incocol y mamal in teutlatollj. Auh in tehoantin ca �� ye iyo totequjuh (in mjtoa) teuatl tlachinollj: auh �� iehoatl ypan titlatoa, titocujtlauja yn jtequjuh yn cujtlapillj yn atlapallj, inic concuj yn jaztauh yn jmecaxicol. auh injvic yn jmecapal, Lehmann, p. 98: inic ontlalilo in tlecujlixquac ynic tetlacavati. Ma oc tiqujnnechicocan yn tlamacazque, in quequetzalcoa, ma tiqujmacaca in jhiyotzin yn jtlatoltzin in tlacatl totecujo. An iehuantin qujlochtizque qujcuepazque yn otoconcujque, yn otoconanque: amelchiqujuhtzin amotzontecontzin tiquevazque totecujyovane, maxicmocevilican yn amoyollotzin y amo nacayotzin: ma yeh ypan in amopetlatzin y amocpaltzin Any and all assistance will be greatly appreciated and duly noted in publications resulting from this study. Thanks in advance from a Mayanist wading in (unfortunately still) unfamiliar waters, Gerardo Aldana gvaldana at chicst.ucsb.edu Henry Kammler wrote: Hola, if |cecenteotlatoca| is derived from /tla'toa/ it would rather translate as "had talked in reference to their respective gods" (or?) "god talk" would be /teotlatolli/ with root-final /l/ = *|cecenteotlatolca| "each by god talk", I guess. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Sat May 28 06:21:45 2005 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 02:21:45 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [Note: I apologize for the length of this response to Jose, but I figure anybody not interested in the discussion can always just delete it. Also, I want to include the caveat that I am not dogmatic and lay no claim to any special authority in these matters, and welcome anybody to jump into the discussion. As I have told Fritz, for me one of the values of Nahuat-l is that these kinds of discussion help keep me thinking about Nahuatl.] Jose, I think I may have given you the wrong impression about what I was trying to say. I was not claiming that what we call adjectives can modify verbs in Nahuatl. It seems to me that not only is it not common for adjectives to modify verbs in Nahuatl, but it is impossible for two reasons. First, if we use such terms as “adjective” and “verb” that come from our traditional grammar, then by definition and logical necessity an adjective cannot modify a verb. Leaving aside the philosophical question about whether thought is based upon a priori or a posteriori concepts, “adjective” and “verb” are logical linguistic concepts or categories rather than empirical ones. In other words, although there certainly are prototypical empirical linguistic forms associated with certain grammatical categories, the category itself is not determined by that empirical form but rather by its logical opposition to other linguistic categories. So, by definition, anything that functionally modifies a verb is an adverb and cannot be an adjective no matter what empirical form it takes. The point I was trying to make is that words in any language can often serve different grammatical functions (and this is true of both Nahuatl and English). So, for example, although we identify Nahuatl words that take absolutive suffixes as nouns, those words can also function as adverbs. In the case of “cecente” you said that it was an adjective, and I was just taking your word for it that maybe you had come across some other context (i.e., not imbedded in a verb) in which it might function as what we identify as an adjective. I can’t think of any such case off-hand, but I haven’t really looked. It does happen in English. In phrases like “dinner plate,” for example, the noun “dinner” functions like an adjective. I think the point Rikke made and that I was trying to reiterate was not that centetl is functioning here as a noun, but rather that “tetl” is a noun. And I was just adding that it is embedded in the verb along with its accompanying quantifier and functioning in a way similar to the logical category that corresponds to an adverb in our logical grammar. In other words, I was trying to avoid the issue of whether or not “cecente” might function in some other grammatical context (not imbedded in a verb) as an adjective, and merely emphasized the fact that technically it is a noun which appears to function in this context as an adverb. None of this, though, implies that adjectives can modify verbs; at least I hope it doesn’t. The second reason it would be impossible is that most regular Nahuatl "adjectives" are actually verbs or verb phrases. There are exceptions, but one of the interesting things about Nahuatl is that many of the ideas we express using adjectives, Nahuatl expresses using verbalized nouns or merely the past tense of a verb. So to say “red” or “pointed,” for example, you use words that literally mean “it became a red pepper” [chichiltic] and “it became a thorn” [huitztic] respectively. And to express adjectives like “fat”, for example, you say “it got fat” [tomahuac]. So in such cases, these verbs and verb phrases are the closest equivalent to what we call adjectives. The English example of “pointed” belongs to an interesting class of adjectives in that they too are verbal forms that are used as adjectives, and we also have forms like “pointy,” which appear to be formed from nouns. In any case, this illustrates the kind of difficulty in applying the metalanguage of European grammar to Nahuatl as if it there were an isomorphic relationship between the languages. I started to write up some comments on the other issues that you raise in relation to what I was saying about grammaticality, but I could see that it would have gotten really long and it basically duplicates part of a much larger argument that I have been writing up dealing with the relation between language and secondary media such as Mesoamerican pictography and the Andean khipu. So, I will desist for the moment and hope to continue this dialogue later. And I am sure we will have plenty of opportunities to do so, since we seem to always end up on the same conference and symposium panels. But with regard to Chimalpahin, I just want to clarify that I did not say that Chimalpahin was “oral.” I said that Nahuatl was an oral language. I was trying to make the argument that regardless of the possibility of other types of grammaticalization at different levels (about which I agree with you), Nahuatl had not (and still has not) been organically grammaticalized on the linguistic level that phonographic writing highlights and emphasizes as was the case with Latin and Spanish. And if we accept that such linguistic differences as those noted above indicate different linguistic ontologies, then even if Nahuatl had been organically grammaticalized at that level, it would have looked very different from Spanish grammar. Furthermore, the fact that Nahuatl had not gone through a process of grammaticalization at this level or in this dimension has certain implications, which again is part of my larger argument. But it is in this sense that I say that Nahuatl was an oral language: it had not been organically grammaticalized in relation to a secondary alphabetic medium. I should also add that this is very different from saying that the Nahuas belonged to an oral culture. Going back to Chimalpahin, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the language in Chimalpahin’s Nahuatl text exhibits some kind of shift as a result of his participation in, or adherence to, an alphabetic ideology and the grammaticalization project of the Spaniards. I think at one level, there is no question that this is true, and I would be very be interested in your thoughts on the specific nature of this transformation. I have thought a lot about this kind of thing in the context of the Andes, and I have found it rather difficult to pin down analytically, the biggest reason being that I only really have access to the written register. But I’m not sure how this bears on the level of linguistic analysis involved in differentiating, for example, between adjectives, adverbs, verbs, etc. If we agree that Nahuatl and Spanish have separate linguistic ontologies whose organic grammaticalization would be different, then the adaptation of alphabetic writing and Latin/Spanish grammatical concepts to Nahuatl would not resolve this problem. Furthermore, although I agree with you that certainly Chimalpahin was writing as a Nahuatl letrado linked to the projects of colonial grammarians, I would resist the tendency to view his text in some kind of strict opposition to the grammar and conventions of Nahuatl oral linguistic practices. I don’t think phonographic writing is ever completely in opposition to oral discourse. In alphabetic cultures with firmly established institutions of literacy, I don’t think the written and the oral registers become more and more differentiated but rather they become more and more proximate, at least in the way they are conceived ideally. There are several reasons, however, why the nature of the respective media (oral versus written) will always insure that they are very different, but by the same token they are also always linked in one way or another. So, I would argue that Chimalpahin’s text should be viewed as engaged in a dialogic relation with (1) oral practices, (2) the conventions of Spanish discourse some of which are grammatical while others may be rhetorical or discursive, and (3) the written medium itself whose specific nature is conducive to certain kinds of linguistic phenomena such as normalization, standardization, syntactic transformations, etc. Galen José Rabasa wrote: > Dear Galen and Henry, > > First, I want to thank Henry for pointing out that god-talk would not > have the verb-form tlatoa but the nominal-form teotlatolli. This leads > me to the question of the terms we use for speaking about Nahautl, the > issue that Galen raised with respect to my observation that adjectives > cannot modify verbs, an observation that missed what Rikke said about > the function of centetl as a noun. Henry points out that the terms we > used derive from Latin grammar, to which I would add that Latin > provided throughout the Middle Ages the "scientific" metalanguage for > speaking about language. Grammar had a closer meaning to logic than to > a mere arte de la lengua. The traces of this metalinguistic practice > can be found in modern semiotics--take the concept of sign for > starters. What guarantees that the terms we use today to describe > non-European languages does not miss "unexpected phenomena" and might > very well produce a conceptual formulation that transforms the > original language through it linguistic reduction (in > sixteenth-century understanding as ordering) just as Carochi did in > his Arte? If I recall correctly, this would be an instance of what > Sapir called the "anthropological mill." Galen hits the mark when he > asks " but don't you often feel that in some cases it just isn't > always quite adequate?" And Galen is absolutely correct when he says > that a Nahuatl "linguistic science would have looked very different > from ours." Does a metalanguage require a phonographic form? Couldn't > we imagine a community of speakers using their everyday language to > speak about language? Or, is it necessary that a given society possess > a "scientific" metalanguage, as was the case of Latin in Europe, to > develop an awareness of its speaking forms? Now, Galen speaks of > grammaticality as bound by a written grammar. I wonder, however, if it > doesn't make sense to speak of a language possessing a grammar > regardless of it systematic reduction to a written grammar. We could > then speak of different degrees of refinement and complexity of speech > in which a certain grammaticality and elegance might be considered > exemplary. This was clearly the objective of Olmos, Sahagun, Juan > Bautista, and Carochi, to just mention the most prominent. Now, it > might be the case that in Nahuatl it is common for what we call > adjectives to modify verbs, but as far as I know this has not been > extensively documented. In studying Chimalpahin we should consider > that he was knowledgeable of the grammars, vocabularios, and other > tools that the Franciscans had devised in the course of the sixteenth > century. I don't see why his style is not building on the Nahuatl > literature that the missionaires had written. I am reading Chimlaphain > not only as someone who used the Latin alphabet, hence wrote letters, > but as someone who was producing a written Nahuatl--not a mere > transcription or reproduction of speech--that is, someone who was > writing as a Nahuatl letrado. In this regard to speak of him as "oral" > would miss the objective of producing a written language with its own > rules, styles, and forms, which I believe is what Chimalpahin was > self-consciously aiming at. > > Jose > >> Hola, >> >> if |cecenteotlatoca| is derived from /tla'toa/ it would rather >> translate as "had talked in reference to their respective gods" (or?) >> "god talk" would be /teotlatolli/ with root-final /l/ = >> *|cecenteotlatolca| "each by god talk", I guess. >> >> Regarding short incorporated nominal roots: >> compare the following forms: >> /o'tlatoka/ = "follow a path" < /o' -tli/ >> /âtlakwi/ = "fetch water" < /â -tl/ >> >> To me this looks like the indefinite object prefix /tla-/ is >> inserted, rather than /tla/ derived from /-tl(i)/. We also find a >> reduplicated form /âtlatlakwi/ (cf. Seler's glossary) "fetch lots of >> water" ("fetch repeatedly"?) which seems to support this. *If* this >> is the same /tla/, I'm not sure. >> >> I think Galen touched upon an important issue: by what processes of >> analysis do we establish our categories (say, "word classes")? >> Lacking alternatives, we do use "traditional" terms rooted in Latin >> grammar writing and established through a long genealogy of Nahuatl >> scholars. While doing so, we should be aware that these terms *may >> be* crutches rather than devices of analysis. As useful as our >> terminology is, it might blur our sight for unexpected phenomena. I >> wonder in what terms we would talk about Nahuatl if it were among the >> Papuan languages "discovered" 30-40 years ago... >> >> Mâ niwîya >> Henry Kammler >> Univ. of Frankfurt > > > From zorrah at ATT.NET Sat May 28 18:08:07 2005 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 18:08:07 +0000 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: Maybe I didn�t understand the lesson in the �Chimalpahin� thread, but can someone please clarify why "altepetl" does not follow the general assimilation patterns as these other examples do: General Assimilation Examples: 1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli (word, language) = na:huallahto:lli 'Nahuatl language' 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land' 3) a:tl + tlapechtli (bed) = a:tlape:chtli 'slope, side of a gully' Also, in examples 2 and 3, is it the presence of the long vowel �a:� stem that is left after the -tl is dropped, only to be confronted with a twin �absolutive suffix-looking tl-� (of course the tl- of tla:lli or tlape:chtli is NOT absolutive) Looking at altepetl, is it the strong �a:� stem again, who this time will accept a half-image or mirror-image of its former self? 4) a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl (town, pueblo) What is going on here? citlalin xochime -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Sat May 28 20:31:47 2005 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:31:47 +0100 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: --- zorrah at ATT.NET wrote: > Maybe I didn’t understand the lesson in the “Chimalpahin” thread, but > can someone please clarify why "altepetl" does not follow the general > assimilation patterns as these other examples do: > General Assimilation Examples: > 1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli (word, language) = na:huallahto:lli > 'Nahuatl language' > 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land' > 3) a:tl + tlapechtli (bed) = a:tlape:chtli 'slope, side of a gully' > Also, in examples 2 and 3, is it the presence of the long vowel “a:” > stem that is left after the -tl is dropped, only to be confronted > with a twin “absolutive suffix-looking tl-” (of course the tl- of > tla:lli or tlape:chtli is NOT absolutive) > > Looking at altepetl, is it the strong “a:” stem again, who this time > will accept a half-image or mirror-image of its former self? > > 4) a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl (town, pueblo) > What is going on here? > citlalin xochime (4) A town needs water for irrigation and a hill to keep out of floods. Thus the components have equal status and the compound is a dvandva. The basic meaning is "it is water (and) it is a hill", "it is water and a hill", originally two words, and people gradually started letting them run together into one; and the sequence -tlt- became -lt-. (1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli is also a dvandva: "it is something clear-sounding (and) it is a language", became na:huallahto:lli ; the sequence -tltl- became -ll-. 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land', as it is (a sort of) land, but it is not (a sort of) water: it is an ordinary compound, not a dvandva. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Citltlyani Some languages have next to no assimilation of adjacent sounds; some langages have enough assimilation to keep a shipload of Borg busy. From zorrah at ATT.NET Sat May 28 21:11:25 2005 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:11:25 +0000 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: I think I just realized the reason for a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl, by looking at another example: The al: looks (or rather sounds) more like a stem ending as in the example: tla:lli + tohpohlli = tla:ltohpolli 'terrace' The weird thing, or perhaps magical thing about the connection is that it acts more like chemistry rather than "assimilation" or what ever term they give it. tlazohcamati citlalin xochime -------------- Original message from ANTHONY APPLEYARD : -------------- > --- zorrah at ATT.NET wrote: > > Maybe I didn�t understand the lesson in the �Chimalpahin� thread, but > > can someone please clarify why "altepetl" does not follow the general > > assimilation patterns as these other examples do: > > General Assimilation Examples: > > 1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli (word, language) = na:huallahto:lli > > 'Nahuatl language' > > 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land' > > 3) a:tl + tlapechtli (bed) = a:tlape:chtli 'slope, side of a gully' > > Also, in examples 2 and 3, is it the presence of the long vowel �a:� > > stem that is left after the -tl is dropped, only to be confronted > > with a twin �absolutive suffix-looking tl-� (of course the tl- of > > tla:lli or tlape:chtli is NOT absolutive) > > > > Looking at altepetl, is it the strong �a:� stem again, who this time > > will accept a half-image or mirror-image of its former self? > > > > 4) a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl (town, pueblo) > > What is going on here? > > citlalin xochime > > (4) A town needs water for irrigation and a hill to keep out of floods. > Thus the components have equal status and the compound is a dvandva. > The basic meaning is "it is water (and) it is a hill", "it is water and > a hill", originally two words, and people gradually started letting > them run together into one; and the sequence -tlt- became -lt-. > > (1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli is also a dvandva: "it is something > clear-sounding (and) it is a language", became na:huallahto:lli ; the > sequence -tltl- became -ll-. > > 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land', as it is (a > sort of) land, but it is not (a sort of) water: it is an ordinary > compound, not a dvandva. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Citltlyani > > Some languages have next to no assimilation of adjacent sounds; > some langages have enough assimilation to keep a shipload of Borg busy. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zorrah at ATT.NET Sat May 28 21:28:00 2005 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:28:00 +0000 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: sorry, this is a just a repeat of my last message without the typos (since there's no editing feature). I always get scrambled when I try to use those colons to mark long vowels... I think I just realized the reason for a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl, by looking at another example: The looks (or rather sounds) more like a stem ending as in the example: tla:lli + tohpolli = tla:ltohpolli 'terrace' The weird thing, or perhaps magical thing about the connection is that it acts more like chemistry rather than "assimilation" or what ever term they give it. tlazohcamati citlalin xochime -------------- Original message from zorrah at att.net: -------------- I think I just realized the reason for a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl, by looking at another example: The al: looks (or rather sounds) more like a stem ending as in the example: tla:lli + tohpohlli = tla:ltohpolli 'terrace' The weird thing, or perhaps magical thing about the connection is that it acts more like chemistry rather than "assimilation" or what ever term they give it. tlazohcamati citlalin xochime -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tonantzin at WI.RR.COM Sat May 28 21:17:21 2005 From: tonantzin at WI.RR.COM (Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 16:17:21 -0500 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: To Anthony Appleyard: What is a dvandva? Never heard of it? It is not even in a dictionary! Is this a neologism? So, how does a dvandva differ from a compound? And is a dvandva another "term" for "disfrasismo"? Juan Alvarez C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ANTHONY APPLEYARD" To: Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 3:31 PM Subject: Re: altepetl > --- zorrah at ATT.NET wrote: >> Maybe I didn't understand the lesson in the "Chimalpahin" thread, but >> can someone please clarify why "altepetl" does not follow the general >> assimilation patterns as these other examples do: >> General Assimilation Examples: >> 1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli (word, language) = na:huallahto:lli >> 'Nahuatl language' >> 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land' >> 3) a:tl + tlapechtli (bed) = a:tlape:chtli 'slope, side of a gully' >> Also, in examples 2 and 3, is it the presence of the long vowel "a:" >> stem that is left after the -tl is dropped, only to be confronted >> with a twin "absolutive suffix-looking tl-" (of course the tl- of >> tla:lli or tlape:chtli is NOT absolutive) >> >> Looking at altepetl, is it the strong "a:" stem again, who this time >> will accept a half-image or mirror-image of its former self? >> >> 4) a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl (town, pueblo) >> What is going on here? >> citlalin xochime > > (4) A town needs water for irrigation and a hill to keep out of floods. > Thus the components have equal status and the compound is a dvandva. > The basic meaning is "it is water (and) it is a hill", "it is water and > a hill", originally two words, and people gradually started letting > them run together into one; and the sequence -tlt- became -lt-. > > (1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli is also a dvandva: "it is something > clear-sounding (and) it is a language", became na:huallahto:lli ; the > sequence -tltl- became -ll-. > > 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land', as it is (a > sort of) land, but it is not (a sort of) water: it is an ordinary > compound, not a dvandva. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Citltlyani > > Some languages have next to no assimilation of adjacent sounds; > some langages have enough assimilation to keep a shipload of Borg busy. > From idiez at MAC.COM Sat May 28 22:57:25 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 17:57:25 -0500 Subject: altepetl and sacred landscape In-Reply-To: <20050528203147.32843.qmail@web86708.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Compañeros, Just a comment on the term "altepetl". Yes, a town needs water. But curiously enough, when nahuas established settlements, they preferred places like valleys, rinconadas, and ravines, where flooding often occured. The mountain is not used to escape this. "Altepetl" can only by understood within the context of sacred landscape. The mountain is a container of life, like a womb, a breast, a piece of fruit, or the primordial lake of Aztlán. Often it has caves with springs, which represent, Chicomostoc, the mythic passage between the primordial lake of creation and Colhuahcan, the settlements or altepetl, established by ancient migrating groups of people. Aside from proximity to a main sacred hill, the settlements tend to be located near a spring or river, whose gushing represents birth (of ancestors and new generations) and the birth canal. A few days ago, there was a discussion of a gliph with a hand clutching water. I didn´t say anything then, but this may be a good time. In many sacred ravines a hand is painted on the side of the cliff. The side of a ravine is reminiscent of the outer wall of a gourd, which in turn represents the outer wall of the container of the primordial lake, Aztlán. The ravine wall is especially attractive to the indigenous mind if it has cracks where water drips out. The hand was painted on the wall of the ravine, because during certain ceremonies, the indigenous people would knock on the rock, to summon their ancestors forth in the form of the new generations. This information is taken from work done on Mesoamerican sacred landscape by María Elena Bernal García and Angel Julián García Zambrano at the Universidad Autónoma del Estado de Morelos. John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On May 28, 2005, at 3:31 PM, ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: > --- zorrah at ATT.NET wrote: >> Maybe I didn’t understand the lesson in the “Chimalpahin” thread, but >> can someone please clarify why "altepetl" does not follow the general >> assimilation patterns as these other examples do: >> General Assimilation Examples: >> 1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli (word, language) = na:huallahto:lli >> 'Nahuatl language' >> 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land' >> 3) a:tl + tlapechtli (bed) = a:tlape:chtli 'slope, side of a gully' >> Also, in examples 2 and 3, is it the presence of the long vowel “a:” >> stem that is left after the -tl is dropped, only to be confronted >> with a twin “absolutive suffix-looking tl-” (of course the tl- of >> tla:lli or tlape:chtli is NOT absolutive) >> >> Looking at altepetl, is it the strong “a:” stem again, who this time >> will accept a half-image or mirror-image of its former self? >> >> 4) a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl (town, pueblo) >> What is going on here? >> citlalin xochime > > (4) A town needs water for irrigation and a hill to keep out of floods. > Thus the components have equal status and the compound is a dvandva. > The basic meaning is "it is water (and) it is a hill", "it is water and > a hill", originally two words, and people gradually started letting > them run together into one; and the sequence -tlt- became -lt-. > > (1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli is also a dvandva: "it is something > clear-sounding (and) it is a language", became na:huallahto:lli ; the > sequence -tltl- became -ll-. > > 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land', as it is (a > sort of) land, but it is not (a sort of) water: it is an ordinary > compound, not a dvandva. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Citltlyani > > Some languages have next to no assimilation of adjacent sounds; > some langages have enough assimilation to keep a shipload of Borg busy. > From davius_sanctex at TERRA.ES Sat May 28 23:12:32 2005 From: davius_sanctex at TERRA.ES (Davius Sanctex) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 01:12:32 +0200 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: Juan, A dvandva, for example X-Y, is a coordinate lexical compound in wich both terms are equally in status and being semantically roughly equivalent of X and Y. The terms a loanword from a tradiotional sanscrit grammatical term (other three types of compounds are distinguished in sanscrit according to its semantic type or syntactical prominence (pra:dha:nyam): Tatpurusa compounds, in wich a compound of the for XY is a type of Y, avyayi:bha:va or inflecitonal invariant compounds and Bahuvri:hi compounds in wich XY denotes a type of entity not relaterd semantically to X or Y]. Examples of these types in Spanish and English are: Tatpurusa: "fireman", "fountain-pen", "fish-hook" / "hombre rana" Bahuvri:hi: ? / pasacalles, nochebueno, matasuegras Dvandva: ? / carricoche, bolilápiz, "sofá cama". I think most compounds in Englis are Tatpurusa Compounds. In Spanish Bahuvri:hi compounds are more abundant. Dvandva compounds are rare in both language but not in sanscrito or nahuatl. (Some adverbial expresions in Spanish like "a quema ropa" are similar to avyayi:bha:va compounds of sanscrit). Davius Sanctex From zorrah at ATT.NET Sun May 29 00:36:39 2005 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 00:36:39 +0000 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: I enjoyed the sacred landscape meaning of �altepetl� that was provided by Dr. Sullivan. I learned in my �History of English� class that Modern English has �self-explaining compounds,� or what the authors define as �compounds of two or more native words whose meaning in combination is either self-evident or has been rendered clear by association and usage.� The book says Old English and modern German are full of self-explaining compounds. The authors argue that it was a way to conserve the native vocabulary without having to borrow from other languages (lest we lose our culture so the saying goes). I�m thinking that these �self-explaining compounds� in English are approximately �Tatpurusa� dvandva compounds. Some examples are given in �History of English� such as �greenhouse, railway, sewing machine, one-way street, and coffee-table book.� Anyway, now that I think I know what dvandra means, what is the relationship between a dvandra and assimilation in Nahuatl? I still don�t get it even after looking at Citlayani�s examples now pasted below: (1) Dvanda a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl A town needs water for irrigation and a hill to keep out of floods. Thus the components have equal status and the compound is a dvandva. The basic meaning is "it is water (and) it is a hill", "it is water and a hill", originally two words, and people gradually started letting them run together into one; and the sequence -tlt- became -lt-. (2) Dvanda. na:huatl + tlahto:lli is also a dvandva: "it is something clear-sounding (and) it is a language", became na:huallahto:lli ; the sequence -tltl- became -ll-. (3) Not a Dvandva. a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land', as it is (a sort of) land, but it is not (a sort of) water: it is an ordinary compound, not a dvandva. There still does not seem to be an explanation for identifying a dvanda in Nahuatl and for following a specified assimilation pattern as a result. As students, are we even supposed to look for the distinction of a dvanda when we are practicing assimilation patterns? Any thoughts would be welcomed. tlazohkamati. citlalin xochime -------------- Original message from Davius Sanctex : -------------- > Juan, > > A dvandva, for example X-Y, is a coordinate lexical compound in wich both > terms are equally in status and being semantically roughly equivalent of X > and Y. The terms a loanword from a tradiotional sanscrit grammatical term > (other three types of compounds are distinguished in sanscrit according to > its semantic type or syntactical prominence (pra:dha:nyam): Tatpurusa > compounds, in wich a compound of the for XY is a type of Y, avyayi:bha:va or > inflecitonal invariant compounds and Bahuvri:hi compounds in wich XY denotes > a type of entity not relaterd semantically to X or Y]. > > Examples of these types in Spanish and English are: > Tatpurusa: "fireman", "fountain-pen", "fish-hook" / "hombre rana" > Bahuvri:hi: ? / pasacalles, nochebueno, matasuegras > Dvandva: ? / carricoche, bolil�piz, "sof� cama". > > I think most compounds in Englis are Tatpurusa Compounds. In Spanish > Bahuvri:hi compounds are more abundant. Dvandva compounds are rare in both > language but not in sanscrito or nahuatl. (Some adverbial expresions in > Spanish like "a quema ropa" are similar to avyayi:bha:va compounds of > sanscrit). > > > Davius Sanctex -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Sun May 29 04:33:19 2005 From: jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Rabasa?=) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:33:19 -0700 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <42980DF9.8050906@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: Given Galen's warning, delete if not interested in our discussion. My response is actually not long and merely poses a few questions Galen, I appreciate your thorough discussion of the care we must take in speaking about verbs, adjectives, and adverbs when analyzing Nahuatl. Your observations on linguistic ontology are most pertinent, and I do share the concern with transposing categories, whether grammatical or philosophical, including the term ontology. Are these categories and disciplines, and the concepts they imply universal? Do we introduce them with the same gesture by means of which we deny their applicability? Your translation of Nahuatl phrases conveys the radical difference with Spanish or English but I wonder if our literal translations of Nahuatl do not incur in a reductive gesture that assumes transparency when you state: "So to say "red" or "pointed,"for example, you use words that literally mean it became a red pepper [chichiltic] and "it became a thorn" [huitztic] respectively."? Would the literality of our translations of chichiltic and huitztic correspond to the semantic and the phenomenal event in Nahuatl? Would the experience of chiltic be similar to that of anaranjado in Spanish which would translate into English as "it became like an orange" (and if we take the suffix "-ado" to imply "the presence of," we could render it as "with the presence of orange-likeness," or something in that line)? As for centetl, shouldn't we differentiate the qualified "noun," one stone, from the function of centetl as a numeral for counting round objects, perhaps tamales, but not tortillas? You state that Nahuatl is an oral language, but if the concept of orality is irremediably bound by circularity and dependence on definitions of literacy and grammaticality, what is the point of retaining this concept? Wouldn't it be more sound to speak of representations or transcriptions of speech and voice, rather than the reified notion that there exist oral languages out there without the ambiguity that is entailed by speaking about orality on the basis of written texts? Should we read Chimalphain and Teçoçomoc as the last representatives of the Nahua intellectuals trained by Sahagun? Did a project of creating a Nahuatl written culture on a par with Latin and Spanish end with them? Jose >[Note: I apologize for the length of this response to Jose, but I figure >anybody not interested in the discussion can always just delete it. >Also, I want to include the caveat that I am not dogmatic and lay no >claim to any special authority in these matters, and welcome anybody to >jump into the discussion. As I have told Fritz, for me one of the values >of Nahuat-l is that these kinds of discussion help keep me thinking >about Nahuatl.] > >Jose, >I think I may have given you the wrong impression about what I was >trying to say. I was not claiming that what we call adjectives can >modify verbs in Nahuatl. It seems to me that not only is it not common >for adjectives to modify verbs in Nahuatl, but it is impossible for two >reasons. First, if we use such terms as "adjective" and "verb" that come >from our traditional grammar, then by definition and logical necessity >an adjective cannot modify a verb. Leaving aside the philosophical >question about whether thought is based upon a priori or a posteriori >concepts, "adjective" and "verb" are logical linguistic concepts or >categories rather than empirical ones. In other words, although there >certainly are prototypical empirical linguistic forms associated with >certain grammatical categories, the category itself is not determined by >that empirical form but rather by its logical opposition to other >linguistic categories. So, by definition, anything that functionally >modifies a verb is an adverb and cannot be an adjective no matter what >empirical form it takes. The point I was trying to make is that words in >any language can often serve different grammatical functions (and this >is true of both Nahuatl and English). So, for example, although we >identify Nahuatl words that take absolutive suffixes as nouns, those >words can also function as adverbs. In the case of "cecente" you said >that it was an adjective, and I was just taking your word for it that >maybe you had come across some other context (i.e., not imbedded in a >verb) in which it might function as what we identify as an adjective. I >can't think of any such case off-hand, but I haven't really looked. It >does happen in English. In phrases like "dinner plate," for example, the >noun "dinner" functions like an adjective. I think the point Rikke made >and that I was trying to reiterate was not that centetl is functioning >here as a noun, but rather that "tetl" is a noun. And I was just adding >that it is embedded in the verb along with its accompanying quantifier >and functioning in a way similar to the logical category that >corresponds to an adverb in our logical grammar. In other words, I was >trying to avoid the issue of whether or not "cecente" might function in >some other grammatical context (not imbedded in a verb) as an adjective, >and merely emphasized the fact that technically it is a noun which >appears to function in this context as an adverb. None of this, though, >implies that adjectives can modify verbs; at least I hope it doesn't. >The second reason it would be impossible is that most regular Nahuatl >"adjectives" are actually verbs or verb phrases. There are exceptions, >but one of the interesting things about Nahuatl is that many of the >ideas we express using adjectives, Nahuatl expresses using verbalized >nouns or merely the past tense of a verb. So to say "red" or "pointed," >for example, you use words that literally mean "it became a red pepper" >[chichiltic] and "it became a thorn" [huitztic] respectively. And to >express adjectives like "fat", for example, you say "it got fat" >[tomahuac]. So in such cases, these verbs and verb phrases are the >closest equivalent to what we call adjectives. The English example of >"pointed" belongs to an interesting class of adjectives in that they too >are verbal forms that are used as adjectives, and we also have forms >like "pointy," which appear to be formed from nouns. In any case, this >illustrates the kind of difficulty in applying the metalanguage of >European grammar to Nahuatl as if it there were an isomorphic >relationship between the languages. >I started to write up some comments on the other issues that you raise >in relation to what I was saying about grammaticality, but I could see >that it would have gotten really long and it basically duplicates part >of a much larger argument that I have been writing up dealing with the >relation between language and secondary media such as Mesoamerican >pictography and the Andean khipu. So, I will desist for the moment and >hope to continue this dialogue later. And I am sure we will have plenty >of opportunities to do so, since we seem to always end up on the same >conference and symposium panels. >But with regard to Chimalpahin, I just want to clarify that I did not >say that Chimalpahin was "oral." I said that Nahuatl was an oral >language. I was trying to make the argument that regardless of the >possibility of other types of grammaticalization at different levels >(about which I agree with you), Nahuatl had not (and still has not) been >organically grammaticalized on the linguistic level that phonographic >writing highlights and emphasizes as was the case with Latin and >Spanish. And if we accept that such linguistic differences as those >noted above indicate different linguistic ontologies, then even if >Nahuatl had been organically grammaticalized at that level, it would >have looked very different from Spanish grammar. Furthermore, the fact >that Nahuatl had not gone through a process of grammaticalization at >this level or in this dimension has certain implications, which again is >part of my larger argument. But it is in this sense that I say that >Nahuatl was an oral language: it had not been organically >grammaticalized in relation to a secondary alphabetic medium. I should >also add that this is very different from saying that the Nahuas >belonged to an oral culture. >Going back to Chimalpahin, if I understand you correctly, you are saying >that the language in Chimalpahin's Nahuatl text exhibits some kind of >shift as a result of his participation in, or adherence to, an >alphabetic ideology and the grammaticalization project of the Spaniards. >I think at one level, there is no question that this is true, and I >would be very be interested in your thoughts on the specific nature of >this transformation. I have thought a lot about this kind of thing in >the context of the Andes, and I have found it rather difficult to pin >down analytically, the biggest reason being that I only really have >access to the written register. But I'm not sure how this bears on the >level of linguistic analysis involved in differentiating, for example, >between adjectives, adverbs, verbs, etc. If we agree that Nahuatl and >Spanish have separate linguistic ontologies whose organic >grammaticalization would be different, then the adaptation of alphabetic >writing and Latin/Spanish grammatical concepts to Nahuatl would not >resolve this problem. Furthermore, although I agree with you that >certainly Chimalpahin was writing as a Nahuatl letrado linked to the >projects of colonial grammarians, I would resist the tendency to view >his text in some kind of strict opposition to the grammar and >conventions of Nahuatl oral linguistic practices. I don't think >phonographic writing is ever completely in opposition to oral discourse. >In alphabetic cultures with firmly established institutions of literacy, >I don't think the written and the oral registers become more and more >differentiated but rather they become more and more proximate, at least >in the way they are conceived ideally. There are several reasons, >however, why the nature of the respective media (oral versus written) >will always insure that they are very different, but by the same token >they are also always linked in one way or another. So, I would argue >that Chimalpahin's text should be viewed as engaged in a dialogic >relation with (1) oral practices, (2) the conventions of Spanish >discourse some of which are grammatical while others may be rhetorical >or discursive, and (3) the written medium itself whose specific nature >is conducive to certain kinds of linguistic phenomena such as >normalization, standardization, syntactic transformations, etc. > >Galen > >José Rabasa wrote: > >>Dear Galen and Henry, >> >>First, I want to thank Henry for pointing out that god-talk would not >>have the verb-form tlatoa but the nominal-form teotlatolli. This leads >>me to the question of the terms we use for speaking about Nahautl, the >>issue that Galen raised with respect to my observation that adjectives >>cannot modify verbs, an observation that missed what Rikke said about >>the function of centetl as a noun. Henry points out that the terms we >>used derive from Latin grammar, to which I would add that Latin >>provided throughout the Middle Ages the "scientific" metalanguage for >>speaking about language. Grammar had a closer meaning to logic than to >>a mere arte de la lengua. The traces of this metalinguistic practice >>can be found in modern semiotics--take the concept of sign for >>starters. What guarantees that the terms we use today to describe >>non-European languages does not miss "unexpected phenomena" and might >>very well produce a conceptual formulation that transforms the >>original language through it linguistic reduction (in >>sixteenth-century understanding as ordering) just as Carochi did in >>his Arte? If I recall correctly, this would be an instance of what >>Sapir called the "anthropological mill." Galen hits the mark when he >>asks " but don't you often feel that in some cases it just isn't >>always quite adequate?" And Galen is absolutely correct when he says >>that a Nahuatl "linguistic science would have looked very different >>from ours." Does a metalanguage require a phonographic form? Couldn't >>we imagine a community of speakers using their everyday language to >>speak about language? Or, is it necessary that a given society possess >>a "scientific" metalanguage, as was the case of Latin in Europe, to >>develop an awareness of its speaking forms? Now, Galen speaks of >>grammaticality as bound by a written grammar. I wonder, however, if it >>doesn't make sense to speak of a language possessing a grammar >>regardless of it systematic reduction to a written grammar. We could >>then speak of different degrees of refinement and complexity of speech >>in which a certain grammaticality and elegance might be considered >>exemplary. This was clearly the objective of Olmos, Sahagun, Juan >>Bautista, and Carochi, to just mention the most prominent. Now, it >>might be the case that in Nahuatl it is common for what we call >>adjectives to modify verbs, but as far as I know this has not been >>extensively documented. In studying Chimalpahin we should consider >>that he was knowledgeable of the grammars, vocabularios, and other >>tools that the Franciscans had devised in the course of the sixteenth >>century. I don't see why his style is not building on the Nahuatl >>literature that the missionaires had written. I am reading Chimlaphain >>not only as someone who used the Latin alphabet, hence wrote letters, >>but as someone who was producing a written Nahuatl--not a mere >>transcription or reproduction of speech--that is, someone who was >>writing as a Nahuatl letrado. In this regard to speak of him as "oral" >>would miss the objective of producing a written language with its own >>rules, styles, and forms, which I believe is what Chimalpahin was >>self-consciously aiming at. >> >>Jose >> >>>Hola, >>> >>>if |cecenteotlatoca| is derived from /tla'toa/ it would rather >>>translate as "had talked in reference to their respective gods" (or?) >>>"god talk" would be /teotlatolli/ with root-final /l/ = >>>*|cecenteotlatolca| "each by god talk", I guess. >>> >>>Regarding short incorporated nominal roots: >>>compare the following forms: >>>/o'tlatoka/ = "follow a path" < /o' -tli/ >>>/âtlakwi/ = "fetch water" < /â -tl/ >>> >>>To me this looks like the indefinite object prefix /tla-/ is >>>inserted, rather than /tla/ derived from /-tl(i)/. We also find a >>>reduplicated form /âtlatlakwi/ (cf. Seler's glossary) "fetch lots of >>>water" ("fetch repeatedly"?) which seems to support this. *If* this >>>is the same /tla/, I'm not sure. >>> >>>I think Galen touched upon an important issue: by what processes of >>>analysis do we establish our categories (say, "word classes")? >>>Lacking alternatives, we do use "traditional" terms rooted in Latin >>>grammar writing and established through a long genealogy of Nahuatl >>>scholars. While doing so, we should be aware that these terms *may >>>be* crutches rather than devices of analysis. As useful as our >>>terminology is, it might blur our sight for unexpected phenomena. I >>>wonder in what terms we would talk about Nahuatl if it were among the >>>Papuan languages "discovered" 30-40 years ago... >>> >>>Mâ niwîya >>>Henry Kammler >>>Univ. of Frankfurt From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Sun May 29 05:14:18 2005 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 06:14:18 +0100 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- José Rabasa wrote: > ... Would the experience of chiltic be similar to that of anaranjado > in Spanish which would translate into English as "it became like an > orange" (and if we take the suffix "-ado" to imply "the presence of", > we could render it as "with the presence of orange-likeness", ... The Spanish suffix [-ado] is from Latin [-atus]. [naranjado] is more like "oranged". Similarly, English "pink" for the color, came from the flower called a pink, which came from the "pinked" shape of the edges of its petals (compare the usage of "pinking" in dressmaking.) Similarly with English "violet" from the flower called a violet. Similatly with English "magenta", which was originally the name of a chemical dye, which was named after a place in north Italy where Napoleon III won a battle. or something in that line)? As > for centetl, shouldn't we differentiate the > qualified "noun," one stone, from the function of > centetl as a numeral for counting round objects, > perhaps tamales, but not tortillas? You state > that Nahuatl is an oral language, but if the > concept of orality is irremediably bound by > circularity and dependence on definitions of > literacy and grammaticality, what is the point of > retaining this concept? Wouldn't it be more sound > to speak of representations or transcriptions of > speech and voice, rather than the reified notion > that there exist oral languages out there without > the ambiguity that is entailed by speaking about > orality on the basis of written texts? Should we > read Chimalphain and Teçoçomoc as the last > representatives of the Nahua intellectuals > trained by Sahagun? Did a project of creating a > Nahuatl written culture on a par with Latin and > Spanish end with them? > > Jose > > > >[Note: I apologize for the length of this response to Jose, but I > figure > >anybody not interested in the discussion can always just delete it. > >Also, I want to include the caveat that I am not dogmatic and lay no > >claim to any special authority in these matters, and welcome anybody > to > >jump into the discussion. As I have told Fritz, for me one of the > values > >of Nahuat-l is that these kinds of discussion help keep me thinking > >about Nahuatl.] > > > >Jose, > >I think I may have given you the wrong impression about what I was > >trying to say. I was not claiming that what we call adjectives can > >modify verbs in Nahuatl. It seems to me that not only is it not > common > >for adjectives to modify verbs in Nahuatl, but it is impossible for > two > >reasons. First, if we use such terms as "adjective" and "verb" that > come > >from our traditional grammar, then by definition and logical > necessity > >an adjective cannot modify a verb. Leaving aside the philosophical > >question about whether thought is based upon a priori or a > posteriori > >concepts, "adjective" and "verb" are logical linguistic concepts or > >categories rather than empirical ones. In other words, although > there > >certainly are prototypical empirical linguistic forms associated > with > >certain grammatical categories, the category itself is not > determined by > >that empirical form but rather by its logical opposition to other > >linguistic categories. So, by definition, anything that functionally > >modifies a verb is an adverb and cannot be an adjective no matter > what > >empirical form it takes. The point I was trying to make is that > words in > >any language can often serve different grammatical functions (and > this > >is true of both Nahuatl and English). So, for example, although we > >identify Nahuatl words that take absolutive suffixes as nouns, those > >words can also function as adverbs. In the case of "cecente" you > said > >that it was an adjective, and I was just taking your word for it > that > >maybe you had come across some other context (i.e., not imbedded in > a > >verb) in which it might function as what we identify as an > adjective. I > >can't think of any such case off-hand, but I haven't really looked. > It > >does happen in English. In phrases like "dinner plate," for example, > the > >noun "dinner" functions like an adjective. I think the point Rikke > made > >and that I was trying to reiterate was not that centetl is > functioning > >here as a noun, but rather that "tetl" is a noun. And I was just > adding > >that it is embedded in the verb along with its accompanying > quantifier > >and functioning in a way similar to the logical category that > >corresponds to an adverb in our logical grammar. In other words, I > was > >trying to avoid the issue of whether or not "cecente" might function > in > >some other grammatical context (not imbedded in a verb) as an > adjective, > >and merely emphasized the fact that technically it is a noun which > >appears to function in this context as an adverb. None of this, > though, > >implies that adjectives can modify verbs; at least I hope it > doesn't. > >The second reason it would be impossible is that most regular > Nahuatl > >"adjectives" are actually verbs or verb phrases. There are > exceptions, > >but one of the interesting things about Nahuatl is that many of the > >ideas we express using adjectives, Nahuatl expresses using > verbalized > >nouns or merely the past tense of a verb. So to say "red" or > "pointed," > >for example, you use words that literally mean "it became a red > pepper" > >[chichiltic] and "it became a thorn" [huitztic] respectively. And to > >express adjectives like "fat", for example, you say "it got fat" > >[tomahuac]. So in such cases, these verbs and verb phrases are the > >closest equivalent to what we call adjectives. The English example > of > >"pointed" belongs to an interesting class of adjectives in that they > too > >are verbal forms that are used as adjectives, and we also have forms > >like "pointy," which appear to be formed from nouns. In any case, > this > >illustrates the kind of difficulty in applying the metalanguage of > >European grammar to Nahuatl as if it there were an isomorphic > >relationship between the languages. > >I started to write up some comments on the other issues that you > raise > >in relation to what I was saying about grammaticality, but I could > see > >that it would have gotten really long and it basically duplicates > part > >of a much larger argument that I have been writing up dealing with > the > >relation between language and secondary media such as Mesoamerican > >pictography and the Andean khipu. So, I will desist for the moment > and > >hope to continue this dialogue later. And I am sure we will have > plenty > >of opportunities to do so, since we seem to always end up on the > same > >conference and symposium panels. > >But with regard to Chimalpahin, I just want to clarify that I did > not > >say that Chimalpahin was "oral." I said that Nahuatl was an oral > >language. I was trying to make the argument that regardless of the > >possibility of other types of grammaticalization at different levels > >(about which I agree with you), Nahuatl had not (and still has not) > been > >organically grammaticalized on the linguistic level that > phonographic > >writing highlights and emphasizes as was the case with Latin and > >Spanish. And if we accept that such linguistic differences as those > >noted above indicate different linguistic ontologies, then even if > >Nahuatl had been organically grammaticalized at that level, it would > >have looked very different from Spanish grammar. Furthermore, the > fact > >that Nahuatl had not gone through a process of grammaticalization at > >this level or in this dimension has certain implications, which > again is > >part of my larger argument. But it is in this sense that I say that > >Nahuatl was an oral language: it had not been organically > >grammaticalized in relation to a secondary alphabetic medium. I > should > >also add that this is very different from saying that the Nahuas > >belonged to an oral culture. > >Going back to Chimalpahin, if I understand you correctly, you are > saying > >that the language in Chimalpahin's Nahuatl text exhibits some kind > of > >shift as a result of his participation in, or adherence to, an > >alphabetic ideology and the grammaticalization project of the > Spaniards. > === message truncated === From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Sun May 29 05:48:17 2005 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 06:48:17 +0100 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: --- Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc wrote: > What is a dvandva? Never heard of it? ... It is one of the words that arose in traditional Hindu Indian grammar and got into international use among linguists. "sandhi" and "vrddhi" are other common examples. Sanskrit names of compounds include:- Dvandva : a compound XY meaning X+Y, such as Sanskrit [hasty-ashva:H] = "elephant-horses" meaning "elephants and horses". It does not seem to occur in English. [a:ltepe:tl] is a Nahuatl example. Tatpurusa : A compound XY where the object described is a Y, but is not a X, but the X defines or restricts its meaning. Examples are "air-cylinder", "weight-belt", "lifejacket", "fin-strap", "mask strap". Bahuvrihi : A compound XY where the object described is not an X and is not a Y, but it has a Y, and that Y has the characteristic X. Examples are "redhead" for a woman with red hair, and (in Tolkien) "Hammerhand" = "having a hand whose blow is like the blow of a hammer". Karmadha:raya : a compound XY where the object is an X and it is also a Y, e.g. "priest-king" for a king who is also a priest. Another type is XY where Y is an adjective, meaning "as Y as an X", e.g. "cherry-red". From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Sun May 29 05:59:29 2005 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 06:59:29 +0100 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: --- zorrah at ATT.NET wrote: > I think I just realized the reason for a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) > = a:ltepe:tl, by looking at another example: > The looks (or rather sounds) more like a stem ending as in the > example: tla:lli + tohpolli = tla:ltohpolli 'terrace' ... If so, [a:ltepe_tl] is *a:lli + tepe_tl, but Karttunen's dictionary does not list a word *a:lli. (Here, -lli came from -ltli.) From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Sun May 29 09:24:27 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 11:24:27 +0200 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <052820051808.16409.4298B386000B98C40000401921602806510207040E049B070C@att.net> Message-ID: I think altepetl is a fossilized form. We have already discussed (Chimalpahin) and largely agreed that there are exeptional forms, where monosyllable verbs keeps the absolutive suffix in composites and incorporations. I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you say it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of 't' gives 'lt'. I'm sorry if I'm repeating an answer from someone else. I haven't read every answer thoroughly. Rikke Marie _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of zorrah at ATT.NET Sent: 28. maj 2005 20:08 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: altepetl Maybe I didn't understand the lesson in the "Chimalpahin" thread, but can someone please clarify why "altepetl" does not follow the general assimilation patterns as these other examples do: General Assimilation Examples: 1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli (word, language) = na:huallahto:lli 'Nahuatl language' 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land' 3) a:tl + tlapechtli (bed) = a:tlape:chtli 'slope, side of a gully' Also, in examples 2 and 3, is it the presence of the long vowel "a:" stem that is left after the -tl is dropped, only to be confronted with a twin "absolutive suffix-looking tl-" (of course the tl- of tla:lli or tlape:chtli is NOT absolutive) Looking at altepetl, is it the strong "a:" stem again, who this time will accept a half-image or mirror-image of its former self? 4) a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl (town, pueblo) What is going on here? citlalin xochime -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Sun May 29 09:30:22 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 11:30:22 +0200 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <20050529092432.8324A74FA2B@user1.cybercity.dk> Message-ID: Correction: monosyllable nounROOTS! Rikke _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Rikke Marie Olsen Sent: 29. maj 2005 11:24 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: altepetl I think altepetl is a fossilized form. We have already discussed (Chimalpahin) and largely agreed that there are exeptional forms, where monosyllable verbs keeps the absolutive suffix in composites and incorporations. I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you say it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of 't' gives 'lt'. I'm sorry if I'm repeating an answer from someone else. I haven't read every answer thoroughly. Rikke Marie _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of zorrah at ATT.NET Sent: 28. maj 2005 20:08 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: altepetl Maybe I didn't understand the lesson in the "Chimalpahin" thread, but can someone please clarify why "altepetl" does not follow the general assimilation patterns as these other examples do: General Assimilation Examples: 1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli (word, language) = na:huallahto:lli 'Nahuatl language' 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land' 3) a:tl + tlapechtli (bed) = a:tlape:chtli 'slope, side of a gully' Also, in examples 2 and 3, is it the presence of the long vowel "a:" stem that is left after the -tl is dropped, only to be confronted with a twin "absolutive suffix-looking tl-" (of course the tl- of tla:lli or tlape:chtli is NOT absolutive) Looking at altepetl, is it the strong "a:" stem again, who this time will accept a half-image or mirror-image of its former self? 4) a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl (town, pueblo) What is going on here? citlalin xochime -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zorrah at ATT.NET Sun May 29 13:46:45 2005 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 13:46:45 +0000 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: Thank you. This makes it clearer. As much as I tried to follow the "Chimalpahin" discussion, I was thrown off a number of times. This response helps a great deal. citlalin xochime -------------- Original message from Rikke Marie Olsen : -------------- Correction: monosyllable nounROOTS! Rikke From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Rikke Marie Olsen Sent: 29. maj 2005 11:24 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: altepetl I think altepetl is a fossilized form. We have already discussed (Chimalpahin) and largely agreed that there are exeptional forms, where monosyllable verbs keeps the absolutive suffix in composites and incorporations. I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you say it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of �tl� in front of �t� gives �lt�. I�m sorry if I�m repeating an answer from someone else. I haven�t read every answer thoroughly. Rikke Marie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Sun May 29 14:53:22 2005 From: jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Rabasa?=) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 07:53:22 -0700 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <20050529051418.14856.qmail@web86706.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I follow your examples from English, but what I was trying to convey is that a literal translation of anaranjado, one that would take account of prefix and suffix would end up being a convoluted statement that would have little to do with the semantic and phenomenological event of perceiving "orange" as color. Would that be the case with Nahautl expression of color? Would our literal translations convey the experience of color for Nahuatl speakers? >--- José Rabasa wrote: >> ... Would the experience of chiltic be similar to that of anaranjado >> in Spanish which would translate into English as "it became like an >> orange" (and if we take the suffix "-ado" to imply "the presence of", >> we could render it as "with the presence of orange-likeness", ... > >The Spanish suffix [-ado] is from Latin [-atus]. [naranjado] is more >like "oranged". Similarly, English "pink" for the color, came from the >flower called a pink, which came from the "pinked" shape of the edges >of its petals (compare the usage of "pinking" in dressmaking.) >Similarly with English "violet" from the flower called a violet. >Similatly with English "magenta", which was originally the name of a >chemical dye, which was named after a place in north Italy where >Napoleon III won a battle. > > > > > > > > or something in that line)? As >> for centetl, shouldn't we differentiate the >> qualified "noun," one stone, from the function of >> centetl as a numeral for counting round objects, >> perhaps tamales, but not tortillas? You state >> that Nahuatl is an oral language, but if the >> concept of orality is irremediably bound by >> circularity and dependence on definitions of >> literacy and grammaticality, what is the point of >> retaining this concept? Wouldn't it be more sound >> to speak of representations or transcriptions of >> speech and voice, rather than the reified notion >> that there exist oral languages out there without >> the ambiguity that is entailed by speaking about >> orality on the basis of written texts? Should we >> read Chimalphain and Teçoçomoc as the last >> representatives of the Nahua intellectuals >> trained by Sahagun? Did a project of creating a >> Nahuatl written culture on a par with Latin and >> Spanish end with them? >> >> Jose >> >> >> >[Note: I apologize for the length of this response to Jose, but I >> figure >> >anybody not interested in the discussion can always just delete it. >> >Also, I want to include the caveat that I am not dogmatic and lay no >> >claim to any special authority in these matters, and welcome anybody >> to >> >jump into the discussion. As I have told Fritz, for me one of the >> values >> >of Nahuat-l is that these kinds of discussion help keep me thinking >> >about Nahuatl.] >> > >> >Jose, >> >I think I may have given you the wrong impression about what I was >> >trying to say. I was not claiming that what we call adjectives can >> >modify verbs in Nahuatl. It seems to me that not only is it not >> common >> >for adjectives to modify verbs in Nahuatl, but it is impossible for >> two >> >reasons. First, if we use such terms as "adjective" and "verb" that >> come >> >from our traditional grammar, then by definition and logical >> necessity >> >an adjective cannot modify a verb. Leaving aside the philosophical >> >question about whether thought is based upon a priori or a >> posteriori >> >concepts, "adjective" and "verb" are logical linguistic concepts or >> >categories rather than empirical ones. In other words, although >> there >> >certainly are prototypical empirical linguistic forms associated >> with >> >certain grammatical categories, the category itself is not >> determined by >> >that empirical form but rather by its logical opposition to other >> >linguistic categories. So, by definition, anything that functionally >> >modifies a verb is an adverb and cannot be an adjective no matter >> what >> >empirical form it takes. The point I was trying to make is that >> words in >> >any language can often serve different grammatical functions (and > > this >> >is true of both Nahuatl and English). So, for example, although we >> >identify Nahuatl words that take absolutive suffixes as nouns, those >> >words can also function as adverbs. In the case of "cecente" you >> said >> >that it was an adjective, and I was just taking your word for it >> that >> >maybe you had come across some other context (i.e., not imbedded in >> a >> >verb) in which it might function as what we identify as an >> adjective. I >> >can't think of any such case off-hand, but I haven't really looked. >> It >> >does happen in English. In phrases like "dinner plate," for example, >> the >> >noun "dinner" functions like an adjective. I think the point Rikke >> made >> >and that I was trying to reiterate was not that centetl is >> functioning >> >here as a noun, but rather that "tetl" is a noun. And I was just >> adding >> >that it is embedded in the verb along with its accompanying >> quantifier >> >and functioning in a way similar to the logical category that >> >corresponds to an adverb in our logical grammar. In other words, I >> was >> >trying to avoid the issue of whether or not "cecente" might function >> in >> >some other grammatical context (not imbedded in a verb) as an >> adjective, >> >and merely emphasized the fact that technically it is a noun which >> >appears to function in this context as an adverb. None of this, >> though, >> >implies that adjectives can modify verbs; at least I hope it >> doesn't. >> >The second reason it would be impossible is that most regular >> Nahuatl >> >"adjectives" are actually verbs or verb phrases. There are >> exceptions, >> >but one of the interesting things about Nahuatl is that many of the >> >ideas we express using adjectives, Nahuatl expresses using >> verbalized >> >nouns or merely the past tense of a verb. So to say "red" or >> "pointed," >> >for example, you use words that literally mean "it became a red >> pepper" >> >[chichiltic] and "it became a thorn" [huitztic] respectively. And to >> >express adjectives like "fat", for example, you say "it got fat" >> >[tomahuac]. So in such cases, these verbs and verb phrases are the >> >closest equivalent to what we call adjectives. The English example >> of >> >"pointed" belongs to an interesting class of adjectives in that they >> too >> >are verbal forms that are used as adjectives, and we also have forms >> >like "pointy," which appear to be formed from nouns. In any case, >> this >> >illustrates the kind of difficulty in applying the metalanguage of >> >European grammar to Nahuatl as if it there were an isomorphic >> >relationship between the languages. >> >I started to write up some comments on the other issues that you >> raise >> >in relation to what I was saying about grammaticality, but I could >> see >> >that it would have gotten really long and it basically duplicates >> part >> >of a much larger argument that I have been writing up dealing with >> the >> >relation between language and secondary media such as Mesoamerican >> >pictography and the Andean khipu. So, I will desist for the moment >> and >> >hope to continue this dialogue later. And I am sure we will have >> plenty >> >of opportunities to do so, since we seem to always end up on the >> same >> >conference and symposium panels. >> >But with regard to Chimalpahin, I just want to clarify that I did >> not >> >say that Chimalpahin was "oral." I said that Nahuatl was an oral >> >language. I was trying to make the argument that regardless of the >> >possibility of other types of grammaticalization at different levels >> >(about which I agree with you), Nahuatl had not (and still has not) >> been >> >organically grammaticalized on the linguistic level that >> phonographic >> >writing highlights and emphasizes as was the case with Latin and >> >Spanish. And if we accept that such linguistic differences as those >> >noted above indicate different linguistic ontologies, then even if >> >Nahuatl had been organically grammaticalized at that level, it would >> >have looked very different from Spanish grammar. Furthermore, the >> fact >> >that Nahuatl had not gone through a process of grammaticalization at >> >this level or in this dimension has certain implications, which > > again is >> >part of my larger argument. But it is in this sense that I say that >> >Nahuatl was an oral language: it had not been organically >> >grammaticalized in relation to a secondary alphabetic medium. I >> should >> >also add that this is very different from saying that the Nahuas >> >belonged to an oral culture. >> >Going back to Chimalpahin, if I understand you correctly, you are >> saying >> >that the language in Chimalpahin's Nahuatl text exhibits some kind >> of >> >shift as a result of his participation in, or adherence to, an >> >alphabetic ideology and the grammaticalization project of the >> Spaniards. >> >=== message truncated === From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Sun May 29 16:53:08 2005 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 12:53:08 -0400 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <20050529092432.8324A74FA2B@user1.cybercity.dk> Message-ID: On May 29, 2005, at 5:24 AM, Rikke Marie Olsen wrote: > > I think altepetl is a fossilized form. We have already discussed > (Chimalpahin) and largely agreed that there are exeptional forms, > where monosyllable verbs keeps the absolutive suffix in composites and > incorporations. >   > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you > say it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of ‘tl’ in front of > ‘t’ gives ‘lt’. >   > Widely across extant Nahuatl writing one finds alternation between the difrasismo atl tepetl and the word altepetl with no discernable difference in reference. Whether one word or two, the reference is to the concept of the Nahua corporate community and hardly to literal water and hills. The corresponding possessed forms (first person here by way of example) are nauh tepeuh (two words) and naltepeuh (one word). If the latter were an unexceptional compound word, the absolutive and possessed forms would be *atepetl, natepeuh respectively, which to my knowledge are totally unattested. The "l" is always in there. One could think of altepetl hovering in the interstice between difrasismo (two words) and regular compound word (one word composed of two stems, only the second of which carries suffixes), but on the other hand, the complex morphology of Nahuatl treats altepetl as a unitary word. As Joe has said before, it's an exceptional case, one of those things one learns as a unit instead of constructing by rule. Every language has such lexical items. As to José's broader questions, I hope he isn't selling short us contemporary linguists and what we do. The thrust of our profession is to discern by research across languages what categories are common to human languages (even if not historically, "genetically" related) and the dimensions on which variation can and does take place. This, of course, is not what 16th- and 17th-century grammarians were up to and is not what modern prescriptivists do, but it IS what linguists do and has been for well over a century. Back in the 1970s Bill Bright provided his students at UCLA with notes on Nahuatl that pointed out that the earliest grammars of Nahuatl best represent the language on its own terms. In the 18th and 19th centuries, as later grammarians tried to impose their particular theoretical molds on Nahuatl, their descriptions of the language grew ever more off-the-mark and unusable. I hope that beginning early in the 20th century, and particularly gathering force since the 1970s, we have gotten back to an understanding of Nahuatl on its own structural terms. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3159 bytes Desc: not available URL: From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sun May 29 17:19:00 2005 From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:19:00 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_=BFSextants=3F?= Message-ID: Gerardo, Regarding the "sextants" in the Mixtec codices you might want to look at Maarten Jansen and Aurora Perez' 1983 article: "The ancient Mexican astronomical apparatus: an iconographical criticism" that appeared in the journal Archaeoastronomy (vol 6, pp. 89-95). Regards, Mike Swanton ________________________________ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Gerardo Aldana Sent: zaterdag 28 mei 2005 0:49 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: ¿Sextants? Hola Nahuat-leros, first I apologize that my question contains none of the linguistic sophistication of the last discussion that was derived from an astronomical reference (re: Chimalpahin--although superficially (given my knowledge base), there may be a connection in the line quoted below containing the term "teutlatollj" cf. H Kammler's remarks). In fact, my question comes from utter ignorance. Be warned. In "Aztec Thought and Culture", León-Portilla makes an intriguing statement referring to Sahagún's "Colloquios y doctrina christiana": "It is said that the astronomers used their hands in the manner of sextants to measure the movements of the stars. They could calculate with precision the exact time the sun would rise and set each day." (paperback edition, 1990, pp. 27-28) The reason this is important to me is that I have been working (mostly with Classic Maya astronomy, iconography, and hieroglyphic texts) on an argument concerning the practice of Mesoamerican celestial observation. Naturally, I start with Nuttall's (and Aveni's) recognition of the Central Mexican codex imagery showing two crossed sticks functioning as an observational instrument, but I haven't done much else with Central Mexican sources here (ok, so there's also a connection to Netzahualpilli's 'observation deck' (via Torquemada, via Aveni)). In my interpretation, though, (differing from Aveni's), the codex images of hands on sticks (with star icons on the fingertips) fit right into the same understanding of the crossed sticks instrument. So I hope its clear that León-Portilla's quote is of some importance. Here's the problem. León-Portilla's reference is to Sahagún via Walter Lehmann, "Sterbende Götter und Christliche Heilsbotschaft" (Stuttgart, 1949), which is a Nahuatl transcription with German translation. My German language consultant (this is what I get for trying to get by only with Romance languages...) claims that León-Portilla's reference is not to be found in the German translation (and I haven't found such a reference in Spanish translations of the Nahuatl). Logically, then, the reference to a hand as a sextant would have to come from the Nahuatl text itself, which I quote below. Any takers on León-Portilla's reference here? Lehmann, p 96: B Auh inhin totecujyoane, ca oncate in ocno techiacana, in techitquj intechmama ynjpampa in tlaiecultilo, ca in toteouâ ynjntlamaceuhcavâ cujtlapillj ahtlapallj in tlamacazque, in tlenamacaque. Lehmann, p. 97: auh in quequetzcova mjtoa. in tlatolmatinjme, auh in jntequjuh in qujmocujtlauja in ioalli in cemjlhuitl, in copaltemaliztli, in tlenamaqujliztlj in vitztlj in acxoiatl, in neçoliztli. in qujtta in qujmocujtlauja yn johtlatoquiliz in jnematacacholiz in ilhujcatl, in iuh iovalli xelivi. Auh in quitzticate, in qujpouhticate, inqujtlatlazticate in amoxtlj. in tlilli, in tlapalli in tlacujlolli quitqujticate. Ca iehoantin techitqujticate, techiacana, techotlatoltia: iehoantin qujtecpana injuh vetzi ce xivitl iniuh otlatoca in tonalpoallj, auh in cecempoallapoallj qujmocujtlauja, iehoantin yntenjz incocol y mamal in teutlatollj. Auh in tehoantin ca çâ ye iyo totequjuh (in mjtoa) teuatl tlachinollj: auh çâ iehoatl ypan titlatoa, titocujtlauja yn jtequjuh yn cujtlapillj yn atlapallj, inic concuj yn jaztauh yn jmecaxicol. auh injvic yn jmecapal, Lehmann, p. 98: inic ontlalilo in tlecujlixquac ynic tetlacavati. Ma oc tiqujnnechicocan yn tlamacazque, in quequetzalcoa, ma tiqujmacaca in jhiyotzin yn jtlatoltzin in tlacatl totecujo. An iehuantin qujlochtizque qujcuepazque yn otoconcujque, yn otoconanque: amelchiqujuhtzin amotzontecontzin tiquevazque totecujyovane, maxicmocevilican yn amoyollotzin y amo nacayotzin: ma yeh ypan in amopetlatzin y amocpaltzin Any and all assistance will be greatly appreciated and duly noted in publications resulting from this study. Thanks in advance from a Mayanist wading in (unfortunately still) unfamiliar waters, Gerardo Aldana gvaldana at chicst.ucsb.edu Henry Kammler wrote: Hola, if |cecenteotlatoca| is derived from /tla'toa/ it would rather translate as "had talked in reference to their respective gods" (or?) "god talk" would be /teotlatolli/ with root-final /l/ = *|cecenteotlatolca| "each by god talk", I guess. ________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sun May 29 19:25:48 2005 From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:25:48 +0200 Subject: Chimalpahin Message-ID: Galen, In a descriptive grammar of some language L, all posited lexical categories (verbs, nouns, positionals, etc) should be defined based on their linguistic behavior in language L. In other words, lexical categories are language-specific and should be empirically, not "logically", defined. When speaking of "verbs" in Nahuatl, we should not be applying a "metalanguage of European grammar to Nahuatl as if it there were an isomorphic relationship between the languages". Rather we should be referring to a category of lexical item that demonstrates certain linguistic behavior (in Nahuatl) distinguishing it from other lexical items (in Nahuatl). The fact that we use the term "verb" to describe lexical classes in English, Nahuatl, French, Mandarin etc does not mean that we take "verbs" in these languages to be in some sort of "isomorphic relationship". Nor does it mean that there's some sort of well developed cross-linguistic definition of this term outside of particular theories of grammar. It's just a convenient label. At best, the label "verb" captures something about the category being grammatically sensitive to time (whether manifested through tense, aspect, temporal adverbials, mood distinctions). On another subject, I find your use of the word "grammaticalization" somewhat confusing. In linguistics grammaticalization refers to a diachronic process by which a lexical morpheme becomes a grammatical one. I don't think this is what you're referring to. On a more personal level, no Nahuatl speaker I've ever met has translated chichiltic as "it became a red pepper". In our efforts to segment morphemes we should be careful not to confuse diachronic and synchronic analyses. Mike Swanton -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Galen Brokaw Sent: zaterdag 28 mei 2005 8:22 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Chimalpahin [Note: I apologize for the length of this response to Jose, but I figure anybody not interested in the discussion can always just delete it. Also, I want to include the caveat that I am not dogmatic and lay no claim to any special authority in these matters, and welcome anybody to jump into the discussion. As I have told Fritz, for me one of the values of Nahuat-l is that these kinds of discussion help keep me thinking about Nahuatl.] Jose, I think I may have given you the wrong impression about what I was trying to say. I was not claiming that what we call adjectives can modify verbs in Nahuatl. It seems to me that not only is it not common for adjectives to modify verbs in Nahuatl, but it is impossible for two reasons. First, if we use such terms as "adjective" and "verb" that come from our traditional grammar, then by definition and logical necessity an adjective cannot modify a verb. Leaving aside the philosophical question about whether thought is based upon a priori or a posteriori concepts, "adjective" and "verb" are logical linguistic concepts or categories rather than empirical ones. In other words, although there certainly are prototypical empirical linguistic forms associated with certain grammatical categories, the category itself is not determined by that empirical form but rather by its logical opposition to other linguistic categories. So, by definition, anything that functionally modifies a verb is an adverb and cannot be an adjective no matter what empirical form it takes. The point I was trying to make is that words in any language can often serve different grammatical functions (and this is true of both Nahuatl and English). So, for example, although we identify Nahuatl words that take absolutive suffixes as nouns, those words can also function as adverbs. In the case of "cecente" you said that it was an adjective, and I was just taking your word for it that maybe you had come across some other context (i.e., not imbedded in a verb) in which it might function as what we identify as an adjective. I can't think of any such case off-hand, but I haven't really looked. It does happen in English. In phrases like "dinner plate," for example, the noun "dinner" functions like an adjective. I think the point Rikke made and that I was trying to reiterate was not that centetl is functioning here as a noun, but rather that "tetl" is a noun. And I was just adding that it is embedded in the verb along with its accompanying quantifier and functioning in a way similar to the logical category that corresponds to an adverb in our logical grammar. In other words, I was trying to avoid the issue of whether or not "cecente" might function in some other grammatical context (not imbedded in a verb) as an adjective, and merely emphasized the fact that technically it is a noun which appears to function in this context as an adverb. None of this, though, implies that adjectives can modify verbs; at least I hope it doesn't. The second reason it would be impossible is that most regular Nahuatl "adjectives" are actually verbs or verb phrases. There are exceptions, but one of the interesting things about Nahuatl is that many of the ideas we express using adjectives, Nahuatl expresses using verbalized nouns or merely the past tense of a verb. So to say "red" or "pointed," for example, you use words that literally mean "it became a red pepper" [chichiltic] and "it became a thorn" [huitztic] respectively. And to express adjectives like "fat", for example, you say "it got fat" [tomahuac]. So in such cases, these verbs and verb phrases are the closest equivalent to what we call adjectives. The English example of "pointed" belongs to an interesting class of adjectives in that they too are verbal forms that are used as adjectives, and we also have forms like "pointy," which appear to be formed from nouns. In any case, this illustrates the kind of difficulty in applying the metalanguage of European grammar to Nahuatl as if it there were an isomorphic relationship between the languages. I started to write up some comments on the other issues that you raise in relation to what I was saying about grammaticality, but I could see that it would have gotten really long and it basically duplicates part of a much larger argument that I have been writing up dealing with the relation between language and secondary media such as Mesoamerican pictography and the Andean khipu. So, I will desist for the moment and hope to continue this dialogue later. And I am sure we will have plenty of opportunities to do so, since we seem to always end up on the same conference and symposium panels. But with regard to Chimalpahin, I just want to clarify that I did not say that Chimalpahin was "oral." I said that Nahuatl was an oral language. I was trying to make the argument that regardless of the possibility of other types of grammaticalization at different levels (about which I agree with you), Nahuatl had not (and still has not) been organically grammaticalized on the linguistic level that phonographic writing highlights and emphasizes as was the case with Latin and Spanish. And if we accept that such linguistic differences as those noted above indicate different linguistic ontologies, then even if Nahuatl had been organically grammaticalized at that level, it would have looked very different from Spanish grammar. Furthermore, the fact that Nahuatl had not gone through a process of grammaticalization at this level or in this dimension has certain implications, which again is part of my larger argument. But it is in this sense that I say that Nahuatl was an oral language: it had not been organically grammaticalized in relation to a secondary alphabetic medium. I should also add that this is very different from saying that the Nahuas belonged to an oral culture. Going back to Chimalpahin, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the language in Chimalpahin's Nahuatl text exhibits some kind of shift as a result of his participation in, or adherence to, an alphabetic ideology and the grammaticalization project of the Spaniards. I think at one level, there is no question that this is true, and I would be very be interested in your thoughts on the specific nature of this transformation. I have thought a lot about this kind of thing in the context of the Andes, and I have found it rather difficult to pin down analytically, the biggest reason being that I only really have access to the written register. But I'm not sure how this bears on the level of linguistic analysis involved in differentiating, for example, between adjectives, adverbs, verbs, etc. If we agree that Nahuatl and Spanish have separate linguistic ontologies whose organic grammaticalization would be different, then the adaptation of alphabetic writing and Latin/Spanish grammatical concepts to Nahuatl would not resolve this problem. Furthermore, although I agree with you that certainly Chimalpahin was writing as a Nahuatl letrado linked to the projects of colonial grammarians, I would resist the tendency to view his text in some kind of strict opposition to the grammar and conventions of Nahuatl oral linguistic practices. I don't think phonographic writing is ever completely in opposition to oral discourse. In alphabetic cultures with firmly established institutions of literacy, I don't think the written and the oral registers become more and more differentiated but rather they become more and more proximate, at least in the way they are conceived ideally. There are several reasons, however, why the nature of the respective media (oral versus written) will always insure that they are very different, but by the same token they are also always linked in one way or another. So, I would argue that Chimalpahin's text should be viewed as engaged in a dialogic relation with (1) oral practices, (2) the conventions of Spanish discourse some of which are grammatical while others may be rhetorical or discursive, and (3) the written medium itself whose specific nature is conducive to certain kinds of linguistic phenomena such as normalization, standardization, syntactic transformations, etc. Galen José Rabasa wrote: > Dear Galen and Henry, > > First, I want to thank Henry for pointing out that god-talk would not > have the verb-form tlatoa but the nominal-form teotlatolli. This leads > me to the question of the terms we use for speaking about Nahautl, the > issue that Galen raised with respect to my observation that adjectives > cannot modify verbs, an observation that missed what Rikke said about > the function of centetl as a noun. Henry points out that the terms we > used derive from Latin grammar, to which I would add that Latin > provided throughout the Middle Ages the "scientific" metalanguage for > speaking about language. Grammar had a closer meaning to logic than to > a mere arte de la lengua. The traces of this metalinguistic practice > can be found in modern semiotics--take the concept of sign for > starters. What guarantees that the terms we use today to describe > non-European languages does not miss "unexpected phenomena" and might > very well produce a conceptual formulation that transforms the > original language through it linguistic reduction (in > sixteenth-century understanding as ordering) just as Carochi did in > his Arte? If I recall correctly, this would be an instance of what > Sapir called the "anthropological mill." Galen hits the mark when he > asks " but don't you often feel that in some cases it just isn't > always quite adequate?" And Galen is absolutely correct when he says > that a Nahuatl "linguistic science would have looked very different > from ours." Does a metalanguage require a phonographic form? Couldn't > we imagine a community of speakers using their everyday language to > speak about language? Or, is it necessary that a given society possess > a "scientific" metalanguage, as was the case of Latin in Europe, to > develop an awareness of its speaking forms? Now, Galen speaks of > grammaticality as bound by a written grammar. I wonder, however, if it > doesn't make sense to speak of a language possessing a grammar > regardless of it systematic reduction to a written grammar. We could > then speak of different degrees of refinement and complexity of speech > in which a certain grammaticality and elegance might be considered > exemplary. This was clearly the objective of Olmos, Sahagun, Juan > Bautista, and Carochi, to just mention the most prominent. Now, it > might be the case that in Nahuatl it is common for what we call > adjectives to modify verbs, but as far as I know this has not been > extensively documented. In studying Chimalpahin we should consider > that he was knowledgeable of the grammars, vocabularios, and other > tools that the Franciscans had devised in the course of the sixteenth > century. I don't see why his style is not building on the Nahuatl > literature that the missionaires had written. I am reading Chimlaphain > not only as someone who used the Latin alphabet, hence wrote letters, > but as someone who was producing a written Nahuatl--not a mere > transcription or reproduction of speech--that is, someone who was > writing as a Nahuatl letrado. In this regard to speak of him as "oral" > would miss the objective of producing a written language with its own > rules, styles, and forms, which I believe is what Chimalpahin was > self-consciously aiming at. > > Jose > >> Hola, >> >> if |cecenteotlatoca| is derived from /tla'toa/ it would rather >> translate as "had talked in reference to their respective gods" (or?) >> "god talk" would be /teotlatolli/ with root-final /l/ = >> *|cecenteotlatolca| "each by god talk", I guess. >> >> Regarding short incorporated nominal roots: >> compare the following forms: >> /o'tlatoka/ = "follow a path" < /o' -tli/ /âtlakwi/ = "fetch water" < >> /â -tl/ >> >> To me this looks like the indefinite object prefix /tla-/ is >> inserted, rather than /tla/ derived from /-tl(i)/. We also find a >> reduplicated form /âtlatlakwi/ (cf. Seler's glossary) "fetch lots of >> water" ("fetch repeatedly"?) which seems to support this. *If* this >> is the same /tla/, I'm not sure. >> >> I think Galen touched upon an important issue: by what processes of >> analysis do we establish our categories (say, "word classes")? >> Lacking alternatives, we do use "traditional" terms rooted in Latin >> grammar writing and established through a long genealogy of Nahuatl >> scholars. While doing so, we should be aware that these terms *may >> be* crutches rather than devices of analysis. As useful as our >> terminology is, it might blur our sight for unexpected phenomena. I >> wonder in what terms we would talk about Nahuatl if it were among the >> Papuan languages "discovered" 30-40 years ago... >> >> Mâ niwîya >> Henry Kammler >> Univ. of Frankfurt > > > From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sun May 29 19:43:21 2005 From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:43:21 +0200 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: If I'm not mistaken Georg Hoelker used the term "Dvandvaaehnliche Wortkuppelung" before Garibay came up with the now popular "difrasizmo". -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of ANTHONY APPLEYARD Sent: zondag 29 mei 2005 7:48 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: altepetl --- Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc wrote: > What is a dvandva? Never heard of it? ... It is one of the words that arose in traditional Hindu Indian grammar and got into international use among linguists. "sandhi" and "vrddhi" are other common examples. Sanskrit names of compounds include:- Dvandva : a compound XY meaning X+Y, such as Sanskrit [hasty-ashva:H] = "elephant-horses" meaning "elephants and horses". It does not seem to occur in English. [a:ltepe:tl] is a Nahuatl example. Tatpurusa : A compound XY where the object described is a Y, but is not a X, but the X defines or restricts its meaning. Examples are "air-cylinder", "weight-belt", "lifejacket", "fin-strap", "mask strap". Bahuvrihi : A compound XY where the object described is not an X and is not a Y, but it has a Y, and that Y has the characteristic X. Examples are "redhead" for a woman with red hair, and (in Tolkien) "Hammerhand" = "having a hand whose blow is like the blow of a hammer". Karmadha:raya : a compound XY where the object is an X and it is also a Y, e.g. "priest-king" for a king who is also a priest. Another type is XY where Y is an adjective, meaning "as Y as an X", e.g. "cherry-red". From idiez at MAC.COM Sun May 29 21:12:14 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:12:14 -0500 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fran remarks here that "altepetl" is an exceptional form. I'd like to comment on another aspect its exceptionalness. The modern náhuatl from Veracruz that I work with does not used possessive suffixes with some kinds of nouns. Here they are: 1. agentive nouns: tepahtihquetl (doctor), tepahtianih (doctors), notepahtihquetl (my doctor), notepahtianih (my doctors) 2. "-n" nouns: cuauhtochin (rabbit), cuauhtochimeh (rabbits), nocuauhtochin (my rabbit), nocuauhtochimeh (my rabbits) There are two more words that stand out in my mind which don't take possessive suffixes: 3. montli: nomontli (my son-in-law), I don`t remember right now what the plural form is like. 4. altepetl: noaltepetl John Sullivan On May 29, 2005, at 11:53 AM, Frances Karttunen wrote: > > On May 29, 2005, at 5:24 AM, Rikke Marie Olsen wrote: > >> >> I think altepetl is a fossilized form. We have already discussed >> (Chimalpahin) and largely agreed that there are exeptional forms, >> where monosyllable verbs keeps the absolutive suffix in composites >> and incorporations. >>   >> I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to >> pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you >> say it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of ‘tl’ in front >> of ‘t’ gives ‘lt’. >>   >> > > Widely across extant Nahuatl writing one finds alternation between the > difrasismo atl tepetl and the word altepetl with no discernable > difference in reference. Whether one word or two, the reference is to > the concept of the Nahua corporate community and hardly to literal > water and hills. > > The corresponding possessed forms (first person here by way of > example) are nauh tepeuh (two words) and naltepeuh (one word). If the > latter were an unexceptional compound word, the absolutive and > possessed forms would be *atepetl, natepeuh respectively, which to my > knowledge are totally unattested. The "l" is always in there. > > One could think of altepetl hovering in the interstice between > difrasismo (two words) and regular compound word (one word composed of > two stems, only the second of which carries suffixes), but on the > other hand, the complex morphology of Nahuatl treats altepetl as a > unitary word. As Joe has said before, it's an exceptional case, one > of those things one learns as a unit instead of constructing by rule. > Every language has such lexical items. > > As to José's broader questions, I hope he isn't selling short us > contemporary linguists and what we do. The thrust of our profession > is to discern by research across languages what categories are common > to human languages (even if not historically, "genetically" related) > and the dimensions on which variation can and does take place. This, > of course, is not what 16th- and 17th-century grammarians were up to > and is not what modern prescriptivists do, but it IS what linguists do > and has been for well over a century. > > Back in the 1970s Bill Bright provided his students at UCLA with notes > on Nahuatl that pointed out that the earliest grammars of Nahuatl best > represent the language on its own terms. In the 18th and 19th > centuries, as later grammarians tried to impose their particular > theoretical molds on Nahuatl, their descriptions of the language grew > ever more off-the-mark and unusable. I hope that beginning early in > the 20th century, and particularly gathering force since the 1970s, we > have gotten back to an understanding of Nahuatl on its own structural > terms. > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 4366 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Sun May 29 21:45:29 2005 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:45:29 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin Message-ID: Going back to the puzzling word, it's interesting that it seems as though the glyph for going along a road or caminando, the line of footprints, is easy to read for anyone. But it doesn't say who went along the road or when. European art can say "who" (as demonstrated by Apelles) but it doesn't say "when" very well except by including things like events and times of year. (This turns into a 1560s detective story with a set of paintings by Bruegel, since usually "how many paintings does it take to represent a year" is not a puzzle.) A Nahuatl document is somewhat like a European picture except that it can include dates, and show exactly when somebody was caminando. In the United States the topic of roads is still a little odd, with people saying now and then that Route 66 or whatever was an Indian trail, or with the Lewis and Clark trail representing something in the history of Lewis and Clark, or with the picture signs in southern California warning drivers that people from Mexico might try to run across the freeway with small children. The footprints look like a verb but they don't seem to be "grammatically sensitive to time." Maybe the examples of translations should include translations of mapas? Susan Gilchrist Original Message: ----------------- From: Swanton, M. M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:25:48 +0200 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Chimalpahin Galen, In a descriptive grammar of some language L, all posited lexical categories (verbs, nouns, positionals, etc) should be defined based on their linguistic behavior in language L. In other words, lexical categories are language-specific and should be empirically, not "logically", defined. When speaking of "verbs" in Nahuatl, we should not be applying a "metalanguage of European grammar to Nahuatl as if it there were an isomorphic relationship between the languages". Rather we should be referring to a category of lexical item that demonstrates certain linguistic behavior (in Nahuatl) distinguishing it from other lexical items (in Nahuatl). The fact that we use the term "verb" to describe lexical classes in English, Nahuatl, French, Mandarin etc does not mean that we take "verbs" in these languages to be in some sort of "isomorphic relationship". Nor does it mean that there's some sort of well developed cross-linguistic definition of this term outside of particular theories of grammar. It's just a convenient label. At best, the label "verb" captures something about the category being grammatically sensitive to time (whether manifested through tense, aspect, temporal adverbials, mood distinctions). On another subject, I find your use of the word "grammaticalization" somewhat confusing. In linguistics grammaticalization refers to a diachronic process by which a lexical morpheme becomes a grammatical one. I don't think this is what you're referring to. On a more personal level, no Nahuatl speaker I've ever met has translated chichiltic as "it became a red pepper". In our efforts to segment morphemes we should be careful not to confuse diachronic and synchronic analyses. Mike Swanton -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Galen Brokaw Sent: zaterdag 28 mei 2005 8:22 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Chimalpahin [Note: I apologize for the length of this response to Jose, but I figure anybody not interested in the discussion can always just delete it. Also, I want to include the caveat that I am not dogmatic and lay no claim to any special authority in these matters, and welcome anybody to jump into the discussion. As I have told Fritz, for me one of the values of Nahuat-l is that these kinds of discussion help keep me thinking about Nahuatl.] Jose, I think I may have given you the wrong impression about what I was trying to say. I was not claiming that what we call adjectives can modify verbs in Nahuatl. It seems to me that not only is it not common for adjectives to modify verbs in Nahuatl, but it is impossible for two reasons. First, if we use such terms as "adjective" and "verb" that come from our traditional grammar, then by definition and logical necessity an adjective cannot modify a verb. Leaving aside the philosophical question about whether thought is based upon a priori or a posteriori concepts, "adjective" and "verb" are logical linguistic concepts or categories rather than empirical ones. In other words, although there certainly are prototypical empirical linguistic forms associated with certain grammatical categories, the category itself is not determined by that empirical form but rather by its logical opposition to other linguistic categories. So, by definition, anything that functionally modifies a verb is an adverb and cannot be an adjective no matter what empirical form it takes. The point I was trying to make is that words in any language can often serve different grammatical functions (and this is true of both Nahuatl and English). So, for example, although we identify Nahuatl words that take absolutive suffixes as nouns, those words can also function as adverbs. In the case of "cecente" you said that it was an adjective, and I was just taking your word for it that maybe you had come across some other context (i.e., not imbedded in a verb) in which it might function as what we identify as an adjective. I can't think of any such case off-hand, but I haven't really looked. It does happen in English. In phrases like "dinner plate," for example, the noun "dinner" functions like an adjective. I think the point Rikke made and that I was trying to reiterate was not that centetl is functioning here as a noun, but rather that "tetl" is a noun. And I was just adding that it is embedded in the verb along with its accompanying quantifier and functioning in a way similar to the logical category that corresponds to an adverb in our logical grammar. In other words, I was trying to avoid the issue of whether or not "cecente" might function in some other grammatical context (not imbedded in a verb) as an adjective, and merely emphasized the fact that technically it is a noun which appears to function in this context as an adverb. None of this, though, implies that adjectives can modify verbs; at least I hope it doesn't. The second reason it would be impossible is that most regular Nahuatl "adjectives" are actually verbs or verb phrases. There are exceptions, but one of the interesting things about Nahuatl is that many of the ideas we express using adjectives, Nahuatl expresses using verbalized nouns or merely the past tense of a verb. So to say "red" or "pointed," for example, you use words that literally mean "it became a red pepper" [chichiltic] and "it became a thorn" [huitztic] respectively. And to express adjectives like "fat", for example, you say "it got fat" [tomahuac]. So in such cases, these verbs and verb phrases are the closest equivalent to what we call adjectives. The English example of "pointed" belongs to an interesting class of adjectives in that they too are verbal forms that are used as adjectives, and we also have forms like "pointy," which appear to be formed from nouns. In any case, this illustrates the kind of difficulty in applying the metalanguage of European grammar to Nahuatl as if it there were an isomorphic relationship between the languages. I started to write up some comments on the other issues that you raise in relation to what I was saying about grammaticality, but I could see that it would have gotten really long and it basically duplicates part of a much larger argument that I have been writing up dealing with the relation between language and secondary media such as Mesoamerican pictography and the Andean khipu. So, I will desist for the moment and hope to continue this dialogue later. And I am sure we will have plenty of opportunities to do so, since we seem to always end up on the same conference and symposium panels. But with regard to Chimalpahin, I just want to clarify that I did not say that Chimalpahin was "oral." I said that Nahuatl was an oral language. I was trying to make the argument that regardless of the possibility of other types of grammaticalization at different levels (about which I agree with you), Nahuatl had not (and still has not) been organically grammaticalized on the linguistic level that phonographic writing highlights and emphasizes as was the case with Latin and Spanish. And if we accept that such linguistic differences as those noted above indicate different linguistic ontologies, then even if Nahuatl had been organically grammaticalized at that level, it would have looked very different from Spanish grammar. Furthermore, the fact that Nahuatl had not gone through a process of grammaticalization at this level or in this dimension has certain implications, which again is part of my larger argument. But it is in this sense that I say that Nahuatl was an oral language: it had not been organically grammaticalized in relation to a secondary alphabetic medium. I should also add that this is very different from saying that the Nahuas belonged to an oral culture. Going back to Chimalpahin, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the language in Chimalpahin's Nahuatl text exhibits some kind of shift as a result of his participation in, or adherence to, an alphabetic ideology and the grammaticalization project of the Spaniards. I think at one level, there is no question that this is true, and I would be very be interested in your thoughts on the specific nature of this transformation. I have thought a lot about this kind of thing in the context of the Andes, and I have found it rather difficult to pin down analytically, the biggest reason being that I only really have access to the written register. But I'm not sure how this bears on the level of linguistic analysis involved in differentiating, for example, between adjectives, adverbs, verbs, etc. If we agree that Nahuatl and Spanish have separate linguistic ontologies whose organic grammaticalization would be different, then the adaptation of alphabetic writing and Latin/Spanish grammatical concepts to Nahuatl would not resolve this problem. Furthermore, although I agree with you that certainly Chimalpahin was writing as a Nahuatl letrado linked to the projects of colonial grammarians, I would resist the tendency to view his text in some kind of strict opposition to the grammar and conventions of Nahuatl oral linguistic practices. I don't think phonographic writing is ever completely in opposition to oral discourse. In alphabetic cultures with firmly established institutions of literacy, I don't think the written and the oral registers become more and more differentiated but rather they become more and more proximate, at least in the way they are conceived ideally. There are several reasons, however, why the nature of the respective media (oral versus written) will always insure that they are very different, but by the same token they are also always linked in one way or another. So, I would argue that Chimalpahin's text should be viewed as engaged in a dialogic relation with (1) oral practices, (2) the conventions of Spanish discourse some of which are grammatical while others may be rhetorical or discursive, and (3) the written medium itself whose specific nature is conducive to certain kinds of linguistic phenomena such as normalization, standardization, syntactic transformations, etc. Galen José Rabasa wrote: > Dear Galen and Henry, > > First, I want to thank Henry for pointing out that god-talk would not > have the verb-form tlatoa but the nominal-form teotlatolli. This leads > me to the question of the terms we use for speaking about Nahautl, the > issue that Galen raised with respect to my observation that adjectives > cannot modify verbs, an observation that missed what Rikke said about > the function of centetl as a noun. Henry points out that the terms we > used derive from Latin grammar, to which I would add that Latin > provided throughout the Middle Ages the "scientific" metalanguage for > speaking about language. Grammar had a closer meaning to logic than to > a mere arte de la lengua. The traces of this metalinguistic practice > can be found in modern semiotics--take the concept of sign for > starters. What guarantees that the terms we use today to describe > non-European languages does not miss "unexpected phenomena" and might > very well produce a conceptual formulation that transforms the > original language through it linguistic reduction (in > sixteenth-century understanding as ordering) just as Carochi did in > his Arte? If I recall correctly, this would be an instance of what > Sapir called the "anthropological mill." Galen hits the mark when he > asks " but don't you often feel that in some cases it just isn't > always quite adequate?" And Galen is absolutely correct when he says > that a Nahuatl "linguistic science would have looked very different > from ours." Does a metalanguage require a phonographic form? Couldn't > we imagine a community of speakers using their everyday language to > speak about language? Or, is it necessary that a given society possess > a "scientific" metalanguage, as was the case of Latin in Europe, to > develop an awareness of its speaking forms? Now, Galen speaks of > grammaticality as bound by a written grammar. I wonder, however, if it > doesn't make sense to speak of a language possessing a grammar > regardless of it systematic reduction to a written grammar. We could > then speak of different degrees of refinement and complexity of speech > in which a certain grammaticality and elegance might be considered > exemplary. This was clearly the objective of Olmos, Sahagun, Juan > Bautista, and Carochi, to just mention the most prominent. Now, it > might be the case that in Nahuatl it is common for what we call > adjectives to modify verbs, but as far as I know this has not been > extensively documented. In studying Chimalpahin we should consider > that he was knowledgeable of the grammars, vocabularios, and other > tools that the Franciscans had devised in the course of the sixteenth > century. I don't see why his style is not building on the Nahuatl > literature that the missionaires had written. I am reading Chimlaphain > not only as someone who used the Latin alphabet, hence wrote letters, > but as someone who was producing a written Nahuatl--not a mere > transcription or reproduction of speech--that is, someone who was > writing as a Nahuatl letrado. In this regard to speak of him as "oral" > would miss the objective of producing a written language with its own > rules, styles, and forms, which I believe is what Chimalpahin was > self-consciously aiming at. > > Jose > >> Hola, >> >> if |cecenteotlatoca| is derived from /tla'toa/ it would rather >> translate as "had talked in reference to their respective gods" (or?) >> "god talk" would be /teotlatolli/ with root-final /l/ = >> *|cecenteotlatolca| "each by god talk", I guess. >> >> Regarding short incorporated nominal roots: >> compare the following forms: >> /o'tlatoka/ = "follow a path" < /o' -tli/ /âtlakwi/ = "fetch water" < >> /â -tl/ >> >> To me this looks like the indefinite object prefix /tla-/ is >> inserted, rather than /tla/ derived from /-tl(i)/. We also find a >> reduplicated form /âtlatlakwi/ (cf. Seler's glossary) "fetch lots of >> water" ("fetch repeatedly"?) which seems to support this. *If* this >> is the same /tla/, I'm not sure. >> >> I think Galen touched upon an important issue: by what processes of >> analysis do we establish our categories (say, "word classes")? >> Lacking alternatives, we do use "traditional" terms rooted in Latin >> grammar writing and established through a long genealogy of Nahuatl >> scholars. While doing so, we should be aware that these terms *may >> be* crutches rather than devices of analysis. As useful as our >> terminology is, it might blur our sight for unexpected phenomena. I >> wonder in what terms we would talk about Nahuatl if it were among the >> Papuan languages "discovered" 30-40 years ago... >> >> Mâ niwîya >> Henry Kammler >> Univ. of Frankfurt > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Sun May 29 22:33:08 2005 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:33:08 -0400 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > The corresponding possessed forms (first person here by way of > example) are nauh tepeuh Sorry. Typing error. Should read nauh notepeuh. Fran From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Sun May 29 22:46:32 2005 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:46:32 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <180D418BCB847A49986CFB7C544B6EC3C8D5F6@WSDPD-XC01.wsdpd.wsdad.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: On May 29, 2005, at 3:25 PM, Swanton, M. wrote: > Galen, > In a descriptive grammar of some language L, all posited lexical > categories (verbs, nouns, positionals, etc) should be defined based on > their linguistic behavior in language L. In other words, lexical > categories are language-specific and should be empirically, not > "logically", defined. > > To put it in simplistic terms, if it takes verbal affixes, it's a verb. If it takes nominal suffixes, it's a noun. Derivational processes yield nouns from verbs, verbs from nouns, abstract nouns from concrete nouns, etc., etc., but the end result takes some particular set of inflectional affixes and not the rest. There is nothing I know of in Nahuatl inflectional morphology that distinguishes adjectives from nouns, so I am always very wary of talking about adjectives in Nahuatl. However, nouns can and do function adverbially in constructions like Cuauhtemoc 'he has descended eagle-wise,' etc. Nouns functioning adverbially can be distinguished from incorporated nonspecific objects because they appear in intransitive verb constructions and when incorporated into transitive verbal constructions, there is also an object prefix referring to the actual object. That said, I disagree that lexical categories are language-specific. If you look at a large range of languages, you find that some categories are common to all, even though no language makes use of the full set of possibilities. From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Mon May 30 03:49:26 2005 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 23:49:26 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jose, Hey, come on now, I appreciate your Socratic style of engagement because it makes me articulate and defend my positions, but it makes me do all the work. :-) > I appreciate your thorough discussion of the care we must take in > speaking about verbs, adjectives, and adverbs when analyzing Nahuatl. > Your observations on linguistic ontology are most pertinent, and I do > share the concern with transposing categories, whether grammatical or > philosophical, including the term ontology. Are these categories and > disciplines, and the concepts they imply universal? Do we introduce > them with the same gesture by means of which we deny their applicability? I do not deny in any general way the applicability of linguistic or philosophical terms. I’m not as concerned with transposing linguistic and philosophical terms as I am with the way we transpose them. In the process we may find that some terms and concepts are useful as they are, some may need to be modified, others perhaps discarded altogether in favor of completely new ones. So, in this discussion anyway, I have not denied the applicability of any terms and concepts, but I have argued that we have to think about them differently sometimes. I don’t automatically deny them, because I do think that there are certain universals that gave rise to them. Whether we can determine what those universals are is another question, because they are not the linguistic and philosophical concepts themselves but rather something–which may be merely a phenomenological process–that underlies them and that can give rise to differing philosophical and linguistic conceptualizations. > Your translation of Nahuatl phrases conveys the radical difference > with Spanish or English but I wonder if our literal translations of > Nahuatl do not incur in a reductive gesture that assumes transparency > when you state: "So to say "red" or "pointed,"for example, you use > words that literally mean it became a red pepper [chichiltic] and "it > became a thorn" [huitztic] respectively."? Would the literality of our > translations of chichiltic and huitztic correspond to the semantic and > the phenomenal event in Nahuatl? Would the experience of chiltic be > similar to that of anaranjado in Spanish which would translate into > English as "it became like an orange" (and if we take the suffix > "-ado" to imply "the presence of," we could render it as "with the > presence of orange-likeness," or something in that line)? I completely agree with you that translation, wether literal or not, constitutes a reductive gesture and that my literal translation of the Nahuatl does not necessarily correspond to the phenomenal event in a Nahuatl speakers consciousness. I would argue that this is true of any metalanguage, even our own. So when I engage in linguistic analysis, I do not assume that I am identifying a phenomenal event; and I don't think that I have made that argument. Phenomenal experience can be conceptualized in different ways, and that conceptualization is often revealed through linguistic systems, but the linguistic strategies used to create words and many aspects of a linguistic system itself are often just that, strategies. So, even though our own adjective “pointed” for example may imply that the object is the result of an action, we do not necessarily conceived of it that way. Similarly with “anaranjado,” as I think you were implying in your message, when people use this word they are necessarily thinking of the object described as having been some other color and having gone through a process of coloring to become the color orange. So, to describe this word as “becoming like an orange” although accurate from the perspective of the linguistic system is misleading if we assume that it describes a phenomenal event of consciousness in the quotidian use of this word. I think we probably agree on that. Nevertheless, the linguistic strategy itself is interesting in its own right. In this case, it appears that the linguistic strategy used to come up with a word for the color “orange” was to take “naranja,” make it into a verb “anaranjar” (which may be just a word specifically posited for this purpose, thus never really used in this form) and then use the past participle in a parallel with other past participle adjectives. Historically, I may be off, but I think it illustrates the point. And the point is that these strategies are definable in linguistic terms (and this is all I mean by linguistic ontology: the nature of the linguistic system), regardless of whether or not they reflect a deeper cultural or epistemological ontology. > As for centetl, shouldn't we differentiate the qualified "noun," one > stone, from the function of centetl as a numeral for counting round > objects, perhaps tamales, but not tortillas? Yes, we should. The question here of course is at what level should we make this differentiation. Should it be a differentiation of linguistic category (such as noun) or something else? This is one of the things that a grammar works out. > You state that Nahuatl is an oral language, but if the concept of > orality is irremediably bound by circularity and dependence on > definitions of literacy and grammaticality, what is the point of > retaining this concept? Wouldn't it be more sound to speak of > representations or transcriptions of speech and voice, rather than the > reified notion that there exist oral languages out there without the > ambiguity that is entailed by speaking about orality on the basis of > written texts? I’m not sure I really understand all of what you are getting at here. You are probably right that the notion of an “oral language” carries with it certain implications that I should avoid. I don’t know. I’ll have to think about that. When I wrote “oral language”, I wasn’t trying to introduce a category but rather delineate the parameters of a practice. So we may not be so far apart on this. > Should we read Chimalphain and Teçoçomoc as the last representatives > of the Nahua intellectuals trained by Sahagun? I don't know. > Did a project of creating a Nahuatl written culture on a par with > Latin and Spanish end with them? No, I think John Sullivan's project is precisely engaged in this kind of endeavor. Galen From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Mon May 30 04:47:58 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 23:47:58 -0500 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <20050529093026.73A8674FA31@user1.cybercity.dk> Message-ID: First, I think that the activity on this thread and the previous one, Chimalpain, have been a nice demonstration of the power and utility of Nahuat-l. I imagine that most of us would not be able to sustain this level of activity on a year-round basis, but I prefer "busy" to "quiet". Second, a little quibble, but a very serious one on the quote below: As Fran has stated very clearly, yes, "altepetl" developed from a phrase (involving two full *words*) rather than from the compounding of *stems*, but I am relatively sure (even though we all know that one who is "sure" is on slippery ice) that pronouncing the phrase "atl tepetl" with one's built-in speech habits and one's notions of Nahuatl pronunciation (either now or sixteenth century, or, more accurately, prior to the sixteenth century) will not lead one down the path of reality. I think that John, for one, can render a good native-sounding pronunciation of the phrase, but that is *not* the main point. Phonetically, we know that /tl/ is a voiceless alveolar affricate; if we proceed from the voiceless lateral fricative release to the probably dental stoppage (we don't know whether the dental stop may have assimilated in point of articulation to the immediately preceding consonant), it is hard to imagine how the transition could have developed a voiced [l] segment (and then deleted the preceding [t] segment. My point of view is that we shouldn't deceive ourselves by believing that we "feel" or "appreciate" what happened when we don't. I am not suggesting that we not sniff down any likely path of inquiry, just that we recognize ones that are not reasonable. > > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you say > it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of 't' gives > 'lt'. > > Third, since I thought that some examples of "difrasismos" would be helpful. In spite of the fact that there is a list member who knows much more about them than I do, I'm sending an uncommented set of them for your curiosity and enjoyment. The "uncommented" nature of the list is well motivated -- at some point, tlatzihuiliztli set in and there is no cure for that. Joe iahaz icuitlapil his subjects, his vassals ahcohuic tlalchihuic quittaz he will respect him ahuaqueh tepehuaqueh inhabitants of a city apixqueh tepepixqueh guardians of a town ahuayohuaque, huitzyohuaque possessors of offspring pochotl ahuehuetl shelter tealcececahui, tetzitzicazhui one who punishes teatoyahuia tetepexihuia she punishes someone huehuetitlan, ayacachtitlan in rituals of song and dance xomolli, caltechtli oblivion teoatl tlachinolli war teoatl tlachinoltilmahtli cape which has a war symbol on it tocochca, in toneuhca our nourishment tecue, in tehuipil someone's woman huictli, mecapalli bondage tinechopochtiz, tinechitzcactiz you will occupy a place in my confidence, you will have my proxy ixequeh nacacequeh prudent people petlatiz icpaltiz he will reign tecomic tecaxic timayahuiz you will pilfer From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Mon May 30 05:03:44 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 00:03:44 -0500 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <20050529093026.73A8674FA31@user1.cybercity.dk> Message-ID: ...and to balance the list of "difrasismos", some examples of noun-noun stem compounding, one of the real workhorse processes in Nahuatl: acalli canoe water-house acalyacatl prow of a ship water-house-nose ahuictli oar water-oar altepetlacatl townsperson water-hill-person amoxcalli bookstore book-house aohtli water conduit water-road atentli bank of a river water-lip/edge axictli whirlpool water-navel axixcalli latrine water-excrement-house axixtecomatl bladder water-excrement-jar cactlilli shoemaker's dye shoe-soot cahualloquetzontli horse's mane horse-neck-hair calcuaitl roof of a house house-head calnacaztli corner of a house house-ear calohtli road that goes to a house house-road canauhtetl duck egg duck-stone icxiohtli footpath foot-road mazacalli stable deer-house nexatl lye ash-water ocopetlacalli pine box pine-mat-house ocotzotl pine resin pine-sweat/filth pahcalli drugstore medicine-house petlacalmecahuehuetl spinet, stringed instrument with keys mat-house-rope-drum pitzocalli pigsty pig-house teocuitlatl gold god-excrement teocuitlaxalli gold dust god-excrement-sand teocuitlaxiquipilli money bag god-excrement-bag tlacatecolocihuatl diabolical woman person-owl-woman tlacatecolotl owl person-owl tlacualcalli pantry something-eat-pat.n.-house tlecaxitl braisier fire-bowl tocaamatl list of names name-paper totolcalli henhouse turkey hen/chicken-house From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Mon May 30 05:11:06 2005 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 01:11:06 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <180D418BCB847A49986CFB7C544B6EC3C8D5F6@WSDPD-XC01.wsdpd.wsdad.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: Swanton, M. wrote: >In a descriptive grammar of some language L, all posited lexical categories (verbs, nouns, positionals, etc) should be defined based on their linguistic behavior in language L. In other words, lexical categories are language-specific and should be empirically, not "logically", defined. > Mike, Thanks for your comments. On most of the points you mention, I'm not sure we really disagree. First, when I oppose empirical to logical, I am talking about the difference between sensorial experience which is empirical and ideal categories which are logical. Of course, you can't have one without the other. But if we are just talking about language and the linguistic system itself, lexical categories cannot be defined empirically because there are so many empirical differentiations: they occur at different times, in different places, with different pronunciations, etc. So they all have to be synthesized into a single ideal, logical construct, even though it depends upon empirical experience for its raw material. Radical idealism emphasizes the logical dimension of this relationship while radical empiricism emphasizes its empirical dimension. And there are numerous other positions in between. The best place to stand is on this continuum is debatable, but it seems to me that the terms of the debate itself are pretty sound. I'm not denying that you have to define lexical items based on their linguistic behavior in language L. The point is that, although empirical experience is necessary, the conceptualization of that experience is a logical ideal. >When speaking of "verbs" in Nahuatl, we should not be applying a "metalanguage of European grammar to Nahuatl as if it there were an isomorphic relationship between the languages". Rather we should be referring to a category of lexical item that demonstrates certain linguistic behavior (in Nahuatl) distinguishing it from other lexical items (in Nahuatl). > I completely agree with you here. You are citing me out of context. The sentence from which you lifted that quote says: "...this illustrates the kind of difficulty in applying the metalanguage of European grammar to Nahuatl as if it were an isomorphic relationship between the languages." I admit that my own grammar here is a little convoluted; it was late when I was writing that. But I was making the same point you are, which is why I said that this was a "difficulty" and "as if it were isomorphic." What I was saying was that languages are not isomorphic. >The fact that we use the term "verb" to describe lexical classes in English, Nahuatl, French, Mandarin etc does not mean that we take "verbs" in these languages to be in some sort of "isomorphic relationship". Nor does it mean that there's some sort of well developed cross-linguistic definition of this term outside of particular theories of grammar. It's just a convenient label. At best, the label "verb" captures something about the category being grammatically sensitive to time (whether manifested through tense, aspect, temporal adverbials, mood distinctions). > Again, I was saying that we cannot assume an isomorphic relationship. Like Fran, however, and as I explained perviously, I do believe that there are certain universals, and this is why all languages appear to include certain linguistic categories, as Fran pointed out. I would argue that these categories are not universal themselves but rather are derivative of whatever is universal about human experience. The fact that not all linguistic categories appear in all languages would seem to corroborate the idea that the categories themselves are not universal but rather something else that underlies them and provides for the possibility of variation. >On another subject, I find your use of the word "grammaticalization" somewhat confusing. In linguistics grammaticalization refers to a diachronic process by which a lexical morpheme becomes a grammatical one. I don't think this is what you're referring to. > You are absolutely right. I am aware of the standard use of the term in lingiustics, and I should be more careful about adopting it for use with a different meaning, especially on this list where there are so many linguists. In this context, what I mean is merely the analysis of language that produces a metalanguage we call grammar. Perhaps I should use another term. As you can probably tell, I'm still developing these ideas (with the help of Jose's Socratic prodding :-)). >On a more personal level, no Nahuatl speaker I've ever met has translated chichiltic as "it became a red pepper". In our efforts to segment morphemes we should be careful not to confuse diachronic and synchronic analyses. > I was not suggesting that a native speaker would translate "chichiltic" as "it became a red pepper." What I was saying is that this is the way it is constructed according to the linguistic system. The point that I was trying to make is that in the project of developing an organic metalanguage, an analysis of this type of construction would have to figure in. So, for example, one option might be to call this an adjective as we do with words like "anaranjado" and "pointed." Another option might be to call it a verb phrase and not even have an adjective category in the grammar. Galen From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Mon May 30 05:18:44 2005 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 06:18:44 +0100 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <429A8D46.8020006@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: --- Galen Brokaw wrote: > ... In this case, it appears that the linguistic strategy used to > come up with a word for the color “orange” was to take “naranja”, > make it into a verb “anaranjar” (which may be just a word > specifically posited for this purpose, thus never really used in this > form) and then use the past participle in a parallel with other past > participle adjectives. ... At first the process in Spanish was to form a noun "X" into a verb "Xar" or "aXar", and then to use that verb, and then to make and use that verb's past participle "Xado" or "aXado". Later, the verb stage was bypassed and a noun "Y" was made directly into an adjective "Yado" or "aYado". An English example is "red-headed" where there is no verb *"to red-head". From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Mon May 30 05:26:42 2005 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 01:26:42 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <429A8D46.8020006@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: I have the habit of reading all of the messages sent out even my own, and I noticed my own typo below: > necessarily conceived of it that way. Similarly with “anaranjado,” as I > think you were implying in your message, when people use this word they > are necessarily thinking of the object described as having been some > other color and having gone through a process of coloring to become the > color orange. It is probably clear from the context, but I missed a "not" in there where it should read "they are NOT necessarily thinking of the object... as having been some other color...." I'm sure there are others, but this one was the most substantively egregious. Galen From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Mon May 30 06:40:34 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:40:34 +0200 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <1117428478.429a9afec5460@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Please inform me if this list is for linguistics majors only! Rikke Marie Joe Cambpell wrote: My point of view is that we shouldn't deceive ourselves by believing that we "feel" or "appreciate" what happened when we don't. I am not suggesting that we not sniff down any likely path of inquiry, just that we recognize ones that are not reasonable. > I wrote: > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you > say it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of > 't' gives 'lt'. -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of campbel at INDIANA.EDU Sent: 30. maj 2005 06:48 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: altepetl First, I think that the activity on this thread and the previous one, Chimalpain, have been a nice demonstration of the power and utility of Nahuat-l. I imagine that most of us would not be able to sustain this level of activity on a year-round basis, but I prefer "busy" to "quiet". Second, a little quibble, but a very serious one on the quote below: As Fran has stated very clearly, yes, "altepetl" developed from a phrase (involving two full *words*) rather than from the compounding of *stems*, but I am relatively sure (even though we all know that one who is "sure" is on slippery ice) that pronouncing the phrase "atl tepetl" with one's built-in speech habits and one's notions of Nahuatl pronunciation (either now or sixteenth century, or, more accurately, prior to the sixteenth century) will not lead one down the path of reality. I think that John, for one, can render a good native-sounding pronunciation of the phrase, but that is *not* the main point. Phonetically, we know that /tl/ is a voiceless alveolar affricate; if we proceed from the voiceless lateral fricative release to the probably dental stoppage (we don't know whether the dental stop may have assimilated in point of articulation to the immediately preceding consonant), it is hard to imagine how the transition could have developed a voiced [l] segment (and then deleted the preceding [t] segment. My point of view is that we shouldn't deceive ourselves by believing that we "feel" or "appreciate" what happened when we don't. I am not suggesting that we not sniff down any likely path of inquiry, just that we recognize ones that are not reasonable. > > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you say > it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of 't' gives > 'lt'. > > Third, since I thought that some examples of "difrasismos" would be helpful. In spite of the fact that there is a list member who knows much more about them than I do, I'm sending an uncommented set of them for your curiosity and enjoyment. The "uncommented" nature of the list is well motivated -- at some point, tlatzihuiliztli set in and there is no cure for that. Joe iahaz icuitlapil his subjects, his vassals ahcohuic tlalchihuic quittaz he will respect him ahuaqueh tepehuaqueh inhabitants of a city apixqueh tepepixqueh guardians of a town ahuayohuaque, huitzyohuaque possessors of offspring pochotl ahuehuetl shelter tealcececahui, tetzitzicazhui one who punishes teatoyahuia tetepexihuia she punishes someone huehuetitlan, ayacachtitlan in rituals of song and dance xomolli, caltechtli oblivion teoatl tlachinolli war teoatl tlachinoltilmahtli cape which has a war symbol on it tocochca, in toneuhca our nourishment tecue, in tehuipil someone's woman huictli, mecapalli bondage tinechopochtiz, tinechitzcactiz you will occupy a place in my confidence, you will have my proxy ixequeh nacacequeh prudent people petlatiz icpaltiz he will reign tecomic tecaxic timayahuiz you will pilfer From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Mon May 30 13:15:45 2005 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:15:45 -0500 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <20050530064043.4E1C393FA2@user3.cybercity.dk> Message-ID: Rikke: No, it's not just for linguistics majors. But, as I recall, you're the one who began this thread, right? Did you not imagine that it would take a linguistic turn at some point. :-) Michael Quoting Rikke Marie Olsen : > Please inform me if this list is for linguistics majors only! > > Rikke Marie > > Joe Cambpell wrote: > > My point of view is that we shouldn't deceive ourselves by believing that we > "feel" or "appreciate" what happened when we don't. I am not suggesting > that we not sniff down any likely path of inquiry, just that we recognize > ones that are not reasonable. > > > I wrote: > > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to > > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you > > say it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of > > 't' gives 'lt'. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] > On Behalf Of campbel at INDIANA.EDU > Sent: 30. maj 2005 06:48 > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Re: altepetl > > First, I think that the activity on this thread and the previous one, > Chimalpain, have been a nice demonstration of the power and utility of > Nahuat-l. > I imagine that most of us would not be able to sustain this level of > activity on > a year-round basis, but I prefer "busy" to "quiet". > > Second, a little quibble, but a very serious one on the quote below: > As Fran has stated very clearly, yes, "altepetl" developed from a phrase > (involving two full *words*) rather than from the compounding of *stems*, > but I > am relatively sure (even though we all know that one who is "sure" is on > slippery ice) that pronouncing the phrase "atl tepetl" with one's built-in > speech habits and one's notions of Nahuatl pronunciation (either now or > sixteenth century, or, more accurately, prior to the sixteenth century) will > not > lead one down the path of reality. I think that John, for one, can render a > good native-sounding pronunciation of the phrase, but that is *not* the main > point. > > Phonetically, we know that /tl/ is a voiceless alveolar affricate; if we > proceed from the voiceless lateral fricative release to the probably dental > stoppage (we don't know whether the dental stop may have assimilated in > point of > articulation to the immediately preceding consonant), it is hard to imagine > how > the transition could have developed a voiced [l] segment (and then deleted > the > preceding [t] segment. > My point of view is that we shouldn't deceive ourselves by believing > that > we "feel" or "appreciate" what happened when we don't. I am not suggesting > that > we not sniff down any likely path of inquiry, just that we recognize ones > that > are not reasonable. > > > > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to > > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you say > > it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of 't' > gives > > 'lt'. > > > > > > Third, since I thought that some examples of "difrasismos" would be > helpful. > In spite of the fact that there is a list member who knows much more about > them > than I do, I'm sending an uncommented set of them for your curiosity and > enjoyment. The "uncommented" nature of the list is well motivated -- at > some > point, tlatzihuiliztli set in and there is no cure for that. > > Joe > > > > iahaz icuitlapil his subjects, his vassals > > ahcohuic tlalchihuic quittaz he will respect him > > ahuaqueh tepehuaqueh inhabitants of a city > > apixqueh tepepixqueh guardians of a town > > ahuayohuaque, huitzyohuaque possessors of offspring > > pochotl ahuehuetl shelter > > tealcececahui, tetzitzicazhui one who punishes > > teatoyahuia tetepexihuia she punishes someone > > huehuetitlan, ayacachtitlan in rituals of song and dance > > xomolli, caltechtli oblivion > > teoatl tlachinolli war > > teoatl tlachinoltilmahtli cape which has a war symbol on it > > tocochca, in toneuhca our nourishment > > tecue, in tehuipil someone's woman > > huictli, mecapalli bondage > > tinechopochtiz, tinechitzcactiz you will occupy a place in my confidence, > you will have my proxy > > ixequeh nacacequeh prudent people > > petlatiz icpaltiz he will reign > > tecomic tecaxic timayahuiz you will pilfer > From dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX Mon May 30 13:39:41 2005 From: dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX (David Wright) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:39:41 -0500 Subject: Altepetl Message-ID: A brief comment on Frances' statement: >Whether one word or two, the reference is to the concept of the Nahua corporate community and hardly to literal water and hills. I would just like to add that the concept of the water-mountain as a metaphor for the sum of calpolli units under the domain of a ruler extended beyond the Nahuatl-speaking community; it was a basic aspect of Central Mexican translinguistic culture and extended up into the Sierra Madre Oriental and down to Oaxaca. Equivalent expressions with morphemes for water and mountain (calques, that is, where each group takes the idea and supplies its own morphemes) may also be found across the language families, in Otomi, Pame, Mazatec, Totonac, Popoluca de Sayula, and Pochutec. In Otomi the term is andehent'oho (both O's underlined; the vowel is intermediate between Spanish O and E). an + dehe + n + t'oho (underlined O's again) singular nominal prefix + noun: water + epenthetic phoneme (or syncopated singular nominal prefix) + noun: mountain This word is attested in Alonso Urbano's trilingual (Spanish-Nahuatl-Otomi) vocabulary (c 1605) and in the Otomi historical annals of the Huichapan Codex (c 1632). We tend to view Central Mexican culture as "Nahua culture" because we have so much more data on the Nahuas. When we look at verbal and iconic metaphors across linguistic boundaries we begin to see the big picture: most elements of culture don't divide along linguistic boundaries in this part of the world. The Mesoamerican network of cultural interaction has very ancient roots. From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU Mon May 30 14:31:54 2005 From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:31:54 -0600 Subject: Convention for counting dual names Message-ID: In classical Aztec, when a person had two names (e.g., Tlotzin Pochotl) and a text refers to the fact that one of these names is the earlier and the other was received later (e.g., "X, who was first called Y), is the person's earlier name listed first or second? In other words, in a case such as Tlotzin Pochotl, would the text likely say "Tlotzen who was first called Pochotl" or "Pochotl, who was first called Tlotzin"? Thanks, Richley From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Mon May 30 15:08:47 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:08:47 +0200 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <1117458945.429b120117bd0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Michael: I'm not sure that I began the thread..., but I did take an active part in it - guilty :-) My outburst was simply a response to a reply which reduced my view on altepetl to a mere "feel" for the language that I apparently don't have! :-) Rikke Marie -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Sent: 30. maj 2005 15:16 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: altepetl Rikke: No, it's not just for linguistics majors. But, as I recall, you're the one who began this thread, right? Did you not imagine that it would take a linguistic turn at some point. :-) Michael Quoting Rikke Marie Olsen : > Please inform me if this list is for linguistics majors only! > > Rikke Marie > > Joe Cambpell wrote: > > My point of view is that we shouldn't deceive ourselves by believing that we > "feel" or "appreciate" what happened when we don't. I am not suggesting > that we not sniff down any likely path of inquiry, just that we recognize > ones that are not reasonable. > > > I wrote: > > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to > > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you > > say it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of > > 't' gives 'lt'. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] > On Behalf Of campbel at INDIANA.EDU > Sent: 30. maj 2005 06:48 > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Re: altepetl > > First, I think that the activity on this thread and the previous one, > Chimalpain, have been a nice demonstration of the power and utility of > Nahuat-l. > I imagine that most of us would not be able to sustain this level of > activity on > a year-round basis, but I prefer "busy" to "quiet". > > Second, a little quibble, but a very serious one on the quote below: > As Fran has stated very clearly, yes, "altepetl" developed from a phrase > (involving two full *words*) rather than from the compounding of *stems*, > but I > am relatively sure (even though we all know that one who is "sure" is on > slippery ice) that pronouncing the phrase "atl tepetl" with one's built-in > speech habits and one's notions of Nahuatl pronunciation (either now or > sixteenth century, or, more accurately, prior to the sixteenth century) will > not > lead one down the path of reality. I think that John, for one, can render a > good native-sounding pronunciation of the phrase, but that is *not* the main > point. > > Phonetically, we know that /tl/ is a voiceless alveolar affricate; if we > proceed from the voiceless lateral fricative release to the probably dental > stoppage (we don't know whether the dental stop may have assimilated in > point of > articulation to the immediately preceding consonant), it is hard to imagine > how > the transition could have developed a voiced [l] segment (and then deleted > the > preceding [t] segment. > My point of view is that we shouldn't deceive ourselves by believing > that > we "feel" or "appreciate" what happened when we don't. I am not suggesting > that > we not sniff down any likely path of inquiry, just that we recognize ones > that > are not reasonable. > > > > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to > > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you say > > it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of 't' > gives > > 'lt'. > > > > > > Third, since I thought that some examples of "difrasismos" would be > helpful. > In spite of the fact that there is a list member who knows much more about > them > than I do, I'm sending an uncommented set of them for your curiosity and > enjoyment. The "uncommented" nature of the list is well motivated -- at > some > point, tlatzihuiliztli set in and there is no cure for that. > > Joe > > > > iahaz icuitlapil his subjects, his vassals > > ahcohuic tlalchihuic quittaz he will respect him > > ahuaqueh tepehuaqueh inhabitants of a city > > apixqueh tepepixqueh guardians of a town > > ahuayohuaque, huitzyohuaque possessors of offspring > > pochotl ahuehuetl shelter > > tealcececahui, tetzitzicazhui one who punishes > > teatoyahuia tetepexihuia she punishes someone > > huehuetitlan, ayacachtitlan in rituals of song and dance > > xomolli, caltechtli oblivion > > teoatl tlachinolli war > > teoatl tlachinoltilmahtli cape which has a war symbol on it > > tocochca, in toneuhca our nourishment > > tecue, in tehuipil someone's woman > > huictli, mecapalli bondage > > tinechopochtiz, tinechitzcactiz you will occupy a place in my confidence, > you will have my proxy > > ixequeh nacacequeh prudent people > > petlatiz icpaltiz he will reign > > tecomic tecaxic timayahuiz you will pilfer > From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Mon May 30 15:15:12 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:15:12 +0200 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <1117428478.429a9afec5460@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Joe: I thought there was a broad consensus about *tl*, *l* and *t*, that certain dialects (I can't name them) has an *l* in places where classical Nahuatl would have a *tl*, and other dialects still has a *t* instead of *tl*. I can't say anything about voiceless alveolar affricates, but if it's a possibility in the evolvement of dialects, couldn't it also happen with a single word within a dialect? Rikke -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of campbel at INDIANA.EDU Sent: 30. maj 2005 06:48 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: altepetl First, I think that the activity on this thread and the previous one, Chimalpain, have been a nice demonstration of the power and utility of Nahuat-l. I imagine that most of us would not be able to sustain this level of activity on a year-round basis, but I prefer "busy" to "quiet". Second, a little quibble, but a very serious one on the quote below: As Fran has stated very clearly, yes, "altepetl" developed from a phrase (involving two full *words*) rather than from the compounding of *stems*, but I am relatively sure (even though we all know that one who is "sure" is on slippery ice) that pronouncing the phrase "atl tepetl" with one's built-in speech habits and one's notions of Nahuatl pronunciation (either now or sixteenth century, or, more accurately, prior to the sixteenth century) will not lead one down the path of reality. I think that John, for one, can render a good native-sounding pronunciation of the phrase, but that is *not* the main point. Phonetically, we know that /tl/ is a voiceless alveolar affricate; if we proceed from the voiceless lateral fricative release to the probably dental stoppage (we don't know whether the dental stop may have assimilated in point of articulation to the immediately preceding consonant), it is hard to imagine how the transition could have developed a voiced [l] segment (and then deleted the preceding [t] segment. My point of view is that we shouldn't deceive ourselves by believing that we "feel" or "appreciate" what happened when we don't. I am not suggesting that we not sniff down any likely path of inquiry, just that we recognize ones that are not reasonable. > > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you say > it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of 't' gives > 'lt'. > > Third, since I thought that some examples of "difrasismos" would be helpful. In spite of the fact that there is a list member who knows much more about them than I do, I'm sending an uncommented set of them for your curiosity and enjoyment. The "uncommented" nature of the list is well motivated -- at some point, tlatzihuiliztli set in and there is no cure for that. Joe iahaz icuitlapil his subjects, his vassals ahcohuic tlalchihuic quittaz he will respect him ahuaqueh tepehuaqueh inhabitants of a city apixqueh tepepixqueh guardians of a town ahuayohuaque, huitzyohuaque possessors of offspring pochotl ahuehuetl shelter tealcececahui, tetzitzicazhui one who punishes teatoyahuia tetepexihuia she punishes someone huehuetitlan, ayacachtitlan in rituals of song and dance xomolli, caltechtli oblivion teoatl tlachinolli war teoatl tlachinoltilmahtli cape which has a war symbol on it tocochca, in toneuhca our nourishment tecue, in tehuipil someone's woman huictli, mecapalli bondage tinechopochtiz, tinechitzcactiz you will occupy a place in my confidence, you will have my proxy ixequeh nacacequeh prudent people petlatiz icpaltiz he will reign tecomic tecaxic timayahuiz you will pilfer From zorrah at ATT.NET Mon May 30 17:09:49 2005 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:09:49 +0000 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: My reply was never meant to �reduce� your perspective to another; rather, it was meant to create a chasm in need of a bridge. That it did. Better yet, it created a gushing flow beneath the bridge. I got what I wanted, and I don�t find blame in it: you�re responsible for creating your own perspective. citlalin xochime -------------- Original message from Rikke Marie -------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Mon May 30 19:35:39 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:35:39 -0500 Subject: double and triple aux verbs Message-ID: Listeros, A while a ago I sent in an example of a double auxiliar verb. The native speakers here worked today on that point, and here are some of their examples (doubles and triples). One interesting point is the use of -tihuallahtihuallauh and -tiyahtiyauh. The meaning is very similar to the Mexican Spanish construction which goes. Ella estaba llori-llore. Estábamos camini-camine, etc. Note in example 12 how the relational construction has been stuck onto the verbstem. Another interesting thing is how local Spanish has been altered under the influence of Nahuatl. The construction -tehua, means something to the effect of "doing something before leaving". Nitlacuahteuhqui" = I ate before leaving. If you ask a native speaker from the Huasteca what the sentence means, they will say, "Dejé comido." Now perhaps the mestizos that live around nahua villages understand this, but no Mexican from other parts of the country would understand this expression, "Dejé comido." I had to ask lots of questions to get a "standard" Mexican Spanish translation. All in all, it's kind of evident with the following examples, that translations don't quite do it. John 1. Tequititeuhtozquia. Hubiera trabajado antes de partir. 2. Niatlacuitihuetzteuhqui. Acarreé agua rápidamente antes de salir. 3. Nihualchocatinentiquizqui. Vine andando llorando de paso. 4. Xiahquitihuallahtihuallauh. Vente nadando seguido. 5. Nimotlalozquizteuhtihuetztozquia. Hubiera salido corriendo de repente. 6. Ticualantihuallahtihuetzqui. De repente mientras caminabas, te enojaste. 7. Niatlacuitihuetztihuallahtoc. He venido acarreando agua rápidamente. 8. Nimotepotlamihtihuallahtiquiza. Me vengo tropezando de paso. 9. Nimatlatzquihtihuallahtihuallahqui pan camión. Me vine agarrando en el camión (durante el camino). 10. Nizaniltihualhuetztiquizqui. Vine hablando rápidamente de paso. 11. Nimomimiltihuetztiquiza. Vengo rodando rápidamente de paso. 12. Nimoixtenomimiltihuetztiquiza. Vengo rodando rápidamente de paso frente a ti. 13. Nimocuatetzontihuallauhtihuetzqui Vine pegándome en la cabeza rápidamente. John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3942 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Mon May 30 21:11:48 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 23:11:48 +0200 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <053020051709.29895.429B48DD0004325D000074C721602807480207040E049B070C@att.net> Message-ID: Misunderstanding. My reply wasn't aimed at you. _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of zorrah at ATT.NET Sent: 30. maj 2005 19:10 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: altepetl My reply was never meant to "reduce" your perspective to another; rather, it was meant to create a chasm in need of a bridge. That it did. Better yet, it created a gushing flow beneath the bridge. I got what I wanted, and I don't find blame in it: you're responsible for creating your own perspective. citlalin xochime -------------- Original message from Rikke Marie -------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Tue May 31 00:24:02 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:24:02 -0500 Subject: conditional tense Message-ID: Listeros, A note on the use of the "conditional tense", -zquia, in modern náhuatl. I think people now tend to call it the "unfulfilled action" tense. Well it refers to unfulfilled action in two ways: 1. Unfulfulled in the sense that the action has not yet been fulfilled: nimaltizquia pampa nizoquiyoh = I should bathe because I'm dirty. 2. Unfulfilled in the sense that there was an intention to fulfill it, but something happened to interrupt the process: nimaltizquia pero tlanqui atl. = I was going to bathe, but the water ran out. 3. And then there is the compound form with "-tozquia", which means "should have done something": nimaltihtozquia quemman oncayaya atl. = I should have bathed when there was water. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Académica de Idiomas Universidad Autónoma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigación Etnológica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Histórico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 México Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Tue May 31 01:57:52 2005 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 18:57:52 -0700 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <053020051709.29895.429B48DD0004325D000074C721602807480207040E049B070C@att.net> Message-ID: Children, behave... Pls go to the corner and face the wall...jeje.... --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Tue May 31 07:15:28 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 09:15:28 +0200 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <20050531015752.70595.qmail@web40722.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: :-) *lol* I lost my blanky, but I've found it now. Rikke _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of DARKHORSE Sent: 31. maj 2005 03:58 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: altepetl Children, behave... Pls go to the corner and face the wall...jeje.... _____ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zorrah at ATT.NET Tue May 31 23:24:43 2005 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:24:43 +0000 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: Dear Rikke Marie: Misunderstanding? Yes. I started the "altepetl" thread, so naturally I thought your response to the comment below was the result of my thread. My misunderstanding began when you used my thread to raise another question (the "outburst") that did not relate to the questions raised in the thread or to the questions of the original thread poster-- in this case--me. In any event, I am sorry. Your contribution to my "altepetl" thread helped to bring out the information that I was seeking to understand. cuale chias, -citlalin xochime >Rikke: No, it's not just for linguistics majors. But, as I recall, you're the one who began this thread, right? Did you not imagine that it would take a linguistic turn at some point. :-) Michael Quoting Rikke Marie Olsen dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK: > Please inform me if this list is for linguistics majors only! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM Sun May 1 11:53:59 2005 From: Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM (Ian Mursell) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 12:53:59 +0100 Subject: etimology of tzictli In-Reply-To: <71F249219F2E3845B88BE93BEC6DA4FB025760EA@lsa-m2.lsa.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: Dear Friends, I'm doing some simple research on the origin of chewing gum for our educational website on the Aztecs (for UK schools), and am getting confused over the usage of the words chicle and tzictli. I?ve read the key section in Book 10 of the Florentine Codex (Dibble and Anderson ed.), but am confused by the reference to chicle: it comes after a description of bitumen (!) which reads ?Bitumen is used for two purposes. The first is to be mixed with pulverized tobacco, so that the pulverized tobacco may be made pleasing. The pleasing scent of the tobacco with bitumen spreads over the whole land. As its second use, it is used by women; they chew the bitumen. And what they chew is named chicle. They do not chew it alone; they provide it with axin. They mix it with axin. It cannot be chewed alone; it crumbles. And in this manner it is improved: axin is provided, axin is mixed in, so that it is softened, smoothed....? Then it goes on to talk about its social use. ?Axin? by the way appears to be ?an oily yellowish substance which is produced by a scale insect of the same name upon the branches of trees?. There?s no reference at all here to the chicozapote tree, where I thought chicle came/comes from! There?s also a reference at the end of the chapter to ?Mountain chicle? or wild chicle that is also chewed. It says ?the mountain chicle is a herb; the substance is extracted from its root?. 'Bitumen' is translated from 'chapuputli', chicle from 'tzictli', and mountain chicle from 'tepetzictli'. And the word for bitumen-mixed-chicle appears to be 'tlaaxnelolli'. Would anyone be able to shed some light on the Nahuatl words for me - and indeed on anything to do with chewing bitumen, for that matter! Not being able to read Nahuatl, I quickly get stuck... Many thanks in anticipation. Ian Ian Mursell Director Mexicolore 28 Warriner Gardens London SW11 4EB, U.K. Tel: +44 (0) 20 7622 9577 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7498 3643 www.mexicolore.co.uk Ian.Mursell at btinternet.com info at mexicolore.co.uk 1980-2005: 25 years of bringing Mexico and the Aztecs to life in schools and museums throughout England. Team visits, online teaching resources and services, live interactive videoconferencing sessions, and much more - all from Mexicolore, the 'highly successful teaching team' (British Museum Education Service) From Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM Sun May 1 11:56:28 2005 From: Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM (Ian Mursell) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 12:56:28 +0100 Subject: ETYMOLOGY of tzictli Message-ID: Sorry, I meant to write ?etymology?! Ian Mexicolore -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Sun May 1 13:03:51 2005 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 09:03:51 -0400 Subject: etymology of tzictli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Nahuatl word tzictli (source of Hispanized chicle) is related to the verb tzicoa, which means to stick things together or to stick to something. There is a related word tzictic meaning something that has become sticky. Hence there is nothing in the noun tzictli itself that says it has to be the gum of the sapodilla tree, although that is what it usually refers to these days. Dibble and Anderson, the translators of the Florentine Codex into English, had a broad knowledge of the context of what appears in the FC, so they probably knew about something that dictated translation of this particular passage. Chapopohtli is a type of tar/asphalt. Simeon describes it as a type of fragrant bitumen used for incense and also says women used it for cleaning their teeth. Tepetzictli literally means "hill/mountain-tzictli." Joe can undoubtedly provide more examples that will enlighten this. From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Sun May 1 21:43:12 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 16:43:12 -0500 Subject: etymology of tzictli In-Reply-To: <12ddb074fcc66c60d0ccbe052d865e00@nantucket.net> Message-ID: > Joe can undoubtedly provide more examples that will enlighten this. > Examples, yes, enlightening... I don't know. The material at the bottom of this message is still so full of errors that I should keep them out of the light of day -- but I will welcome corrections. In some cases, the morpheme tags just constitute post-it notes to myself about "possibilities". I think that the basic morpheme is tzictli and it can verb intransitively to tzicahui (it gets sticky) and then add causative to form tzicoa -- qui-tzicoa (he sticks it). It also verbs and preteritely adjectivalizes: tzic-ti-c (sticky). The semantic creep and flow is interesting -- qui-tzicoa (he sticks him, he detains him). And the idea of something detained or held back extends to a limb that is fully functional: matzicoltic (manco de la mano -- having a lame hand or arm, or, possibly, lacking a hand or arm). It is possible that the way a comb gets caught in being pulling through the hair may be involved in tzicahuaztli (comb). I will send a separate message with the examples that I've found in the Florentine Codex. Joe *tzictli*** cuatetzicoa , mo-. . . b.2 f.3 icpatlahuillatzicoltiloni. mechero de candilo lampara; mechero de candil o lampara; mechero de lampara. . 55m-13 itlatzicoltiloca. estornija de carro. . 71m2-8 ixtetzicoa =nitla=. tundir pa?o. . 71m2- 8 ixtetzicohua =nitla. tundir pa?o. . 71m1-20 matziccua. inabil y torpe; ynabil cosa. . 71m2-9 matziccuayotl. inabilidad y torpeza; ynabilidad assi. . 71m2-9 matzicol. lacking an arm. . b.10 f.1 matzicolihui. . . b.1 f.1 matzicolihui =ni. mancarse assi. . 71m1-14 matzicolihuiaya. . . b.1 f.5 matzicolihuiya. he was lame in a hand. . b.1 f.3 matzicolihuiz. . . b.4 f.8 matzicoltic. . . b.2 f.2 matzicoltic. manco de manos; manco delas manos; manco dela mano; ?opo dela mano. . 55m-13 matzitzicol. manco delas manos. . 71m1-14 matzitzicolihui =ni. mancarse assi. . 71m1-14 matzitzicolihuiztli. gota de manos. . 55m-10 matzitzicoltic. gotoso desta manera; gotoso manco de manos; ?opo dela mano. . 55m-10 oncan tzicahui in neteilhuiliztli [scribal error: ??facsimile has tzicaui; porrua edition has tzicani: 71m1]. estado de la causa. . 71m1-11 oncan tzicahui in tlatolli. estado de la causa. . 71m1-11 oncan tzicahui inneteilhuiliztli. el estado enque esta el pleyto. . 71m2-13 oncan tzicahui intlatolli. el estado enque esta el pleyto. . 71m2-13 tacanaltzictli. wild chicle. . b.10 f.5 tecanaltzictli. wild chicle. . b.10 f.5 tepetzichuia , mo-. . . b.11 f.1 tepetzictli. mountain chicle. . b.10 f.5 tepotzicuahuazhuia =nitla=onitlatepotzicuahuazhui. almohazar. . 71m2-17 tepotzicuahuaztli. almohaza. . 71m2-17 tepoztlatlatzicoltiloni. alfilel; corchete; alfiler; o corchete. . 55m-00 tepozyahuallalatzicoltiloni. heuilla o heuilleta. . 55m-11 [t]lancuatzicolihuiz , tihual-. your knees will become crippled. . b.9 f.5 tlancuatzicoltic. coxo dela rodilla; coxo de rodilla; tollido de la rodilla. . 55m-4 tlatzicoltiloni =tla. estornija de carreta. . 71m2-24 tzic , i-. her chewing gum. . b.4 f.9 tzicahuazhuia =nino=oninotzicahuazhui. peinarse. . 71m2-26 tzicahuaztepiton. peine peque?o. . 71m2-26 tzicahuaztli. peine. . 71m2-26 tzicalhuia =nic. detener algo a otro. . 71m1-8 tzicalhuia =nic=onictzicalhui. detener alguna cosa a otro. . 71m2-26 tzicauhqui. cosa asida, o pegada a alguna cosa; parado assi. . 71m2-26 tziccuacua. she chews chicle; they chew chicle. . b.10 f.3 tziccuacualiztli. act of chewing chicle; the chewing of chicle. . b.10 f.5 tziccuacuaz. she will chew chicle. . b.6 f.13 tzico =mo. auezindado assi. . 71m1-3 tzico =otla. arraigada cosa assi; arraygada cosa con raizes. . 71m1-2 tzico =te. el que detiene a otro; tardadora casa. . 71m2-19 tzico =te [scribal error: ??no period between netzicoloni and tetzico (end of line intervenes): 71m1]. tardadora cosa. . 71m1-20 tzicoa , tla-. he holds something. . b.4 f.1 tzicoa =mo. paralo que anda, de cosas ynanimadas; parar lo que anda. . 55m-15 tzicoa =nic. parar o estancar alo q/anda de cosas inanimadas; parar o estancar alo que anda de cosas inanimadas. . 55m-15 tzicoa =nino. auezindarse o detenerse en algun lugar; estar lo que suele andar; estar o pararse lo que suele andar; tardarse; tenerse en algo el que se cae. . 71m1-3 tzicoa =nino=oninotzico. detenerse en alguna parte, o asirse en alguna, o dealguna cosa. . 71m2-26 tzicoa =nite. a quedarlo que anda; aquedar lo que anda; detener a otro; detener al que anda; detener a otro detardarle; engorrar; estoruar o detener al que camina; parar o estancar alo que anda; de cosas animadas; parar o estancar a lo que anda; quedar alo que huye; retener; tardar a otro; ympedir al que se quiere yr o detener alo que anda; ympedir al que se quiere yr; o detener al que anda. . 55m-1 tzicoa =nite=onitetzico. detener a algunopara que nose vaya. . 71m2-26 tzicoa =nitla. arraigarse algo o echar rayzes; arraygarse echar raizes. . 71m1-2 tzicoa =nitla=onitlatzico. asir, o pegar algo a otra cosa. . 71m2-26 tzicoa =nonno. detenerse tardando; detenerse en alguna parte. . 55m-6 tzicoa =nonno=. cosa asida, o pegada a alguna cosa. . 71m2-26 tzicoa =nonno=ononnotzico. detenerse en alguna parte, o asirse en alguna, o dealguna cosa. . 71m2-26 tzicoa =tla. estancarse el agua que corria. . 55m-9 tzicoa =tla [scribal error: ??no period betwen tlatzicoa and yloti: 71m1]. estancarse el agua que corria. . 71m1-11 tzicoa =tla=otlatzico. asirse o pegarse algo a otra cosa. . 71m2-24 tzicoani =mo. tardador que se tarda. . 55m-19 tzicoani =te. detenedor assi; el que detiene a otro; tardador de otro. . 71m1-8 tzicoliuhqui. ; curved; twisted. . b.11 f.2 tzicoliztli =ne. auezindamiento tal; detenimiento del que se detiene en alguna parte; tardan?a. . 71m1-3 tzicoliztli =te. detenimento; detenimiento tal; retencion; ympedimento tal; ympedimiento tal. . 55m-6 tzicoliztli =tla. asimiento tal. . 71m2- 24 tzicolli =tla. cosa asida desta manera; detenido; detenido assi; parado assi; ympedido assi. . 71m2-24 tzicolo , on-. . . b.4 f.11 tzicolo , ti-. . . b.1 f.1 tzicololtia , qui-. it deters him. . b.4 f.1 tzicololtia =nite. estoruar o impedir a otro; ympedir que no se haga alguna cosa. . 71m1-11 tzicololtia =nite=onitetzicololti. estoruar, o impedir a otro. . 71m2-26 tzicololtiz , mitz-. it will impede you. . b.4 f.7 tzicololtiz =atle mitz. ninguna cosa te estoruara. . 71m1-16 tzicoloni =ne. cosa que haze detener; tardadora casa. . 71m2-12 tzicoloni =ne [scribal error: ??no period between netzicoloni and tetzico (end of line intervenes): 71m1]. tardadora cosa. . 71m1-20 tzicoltia , quitla-. he keeps it. . b.4 f.1 tzicoltic. curved. . b.11 f.2 tzicoltilia =nite. detener a otro. . 71m1-8 tzicoltilia =nite=onitezicoltili. detener a otro. . 71m2-26 tzicoltiloca =itla. estornija de carro. . 55m-9 tzicoltiloni =tlatla. estornija de carro. . 55m-9 tzicoqui =mo. auezindado assi. . 71m1-3 tzicotica =tla. cosa asida o pegada a algo; estable cosa que esta; estable cosa que esta firme. . 71m2-24 tzictia. it becomes sticky, it adheres. . b.9 f.6 tzictic. gummy. . b.11 f.24 tzictilia , nic-. I solder it. . b.11 f.23 tzictlatlatza , mo-. she clacks chicle; they click chicle. . b.10 f.3 tzictli. chicle. . b.10 f.4 tzicuahuazhuia =nino=oninotzicuahuazhui. peinarse. . 71m2-26 tzicuahuazhuia =nite=onitetzicuahuazhui. peinar a otro. . 71m2-26 tzicuahuazhuiani =mo. peinado, o el que se peina. . 71m2-10 tzicuahuazhuiliztli =ne. el acto de peinarse alguno. . 71m2-12 tzicuahuaztli. peyne. . 71m2-26 tzitziccuacua. they constantly chew chicle. . b.10 f.5 From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Sun May 1 21:51:24 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 16:51:24 -0500 Subject: examples of tzictli -- Florentine In-Reply-To: <12ddb074fcc66c60d0ccbe052d865e00@nantucket.net> Message-ID: Here are the examples from the Florentine: 1. *itzic*. zan ic nemintlapitzahua, itzic quitlatlatztzatinemi, she did nothing but talk in a loud voice; she went about snapping her chewing gum. (b.4 f.9 c.28 p.95) 2. *matzicol*. in ahyectli conetontli ahcemelle ahonmanamic, teopoliuhqui, tencua, xocotonqui, matzicol, ihtlacauhqui, the bad infant [is] unfit, without resistance to sickness, full of sickness, hare-lipped, lacking an arm, a leg, blemished. (b.10 f.1 c.3 p.13) 3. *matzicolihui*. inic aca itech quinehuaya, tlahuelilocati, tennecuilihui, ixnecuilihui, matzicolihui, icxicopichahui, icximimiqui, momacuecuetza, tencualacquiza: when one was under their spell, possessed, one's mouth was twisted, one's face was contorted; one lacked use of a hand; one's feet were misshapen -- one's feet were deadened; one's hand trembled; one foamed at the mouth. (b.1 f.1 c.10 p.19) 4. *matzicolihui*. ihuan in aquin zan quipiqui, zan nempehua in matzicolihui, in tennecuilihui, in matzicolihui, icxiquicuecuetza: coni, and one who is sluggish, [who] starts in vain, whose arms become paralyzed, whose mouth becomes twisted, whose arms become paralyzed, [whose] legs wobble -- he drinks it. (b.11 f.17 c.7 p.175) 5. *matzicolihui*. ihuan in aquin zan quipiqui, zan nempehua in matzicolihui, in tennecuilihui, in matzicolihui, icxiquicuecuetza: coni, and one who is sluggish, [who] starts in vain, whose arms become paralyzed, whose mouth becomes twisted, whose arms become paralyzed, [whose] legs wobble -- he drinks it. (b.11 f.17 c.7 p.175) 6. *matzicolihuiaya*. inic aca itech quinehuaya, in tlahuelilocatia, tennecuilihuia, ixnecuilihuia, matzicolihuiaya, icxicopichahuia: icximimiquia, momacuecuetzaya, tencualacquizaya: when someone was under their spell, he was possessed, his mouth was twisted, his face contorted, he lacked use of a hand, his feet were misshapen, his feet were deadened, his hand trembled, he foamed at the mouth. (b.1 f.5 c.Ap p.72) 7. *matzicolihuiya*. ihuan in aca matzicolihuiya, ima quicuecuetza, icxi quicuecuetza, macopichahui, icxicopichahui, icxicuecuechca, ihixatotoco, tempapatlaca, tenhuihuiyoca, itech quinehua: mitoa, oquitlahuelique in xoxouhque tepicme. and if one were lame in one hand, [if] his arm quivered, his leg quivered, a hand became misshapen, a foot became misshapen, his foot shook, his eyes trembled, his lips quivered, his lips trembled, if he were possessed, it was said, the green mountain gods had become angered by him. (b.1 f.3 c.21 p.49) 8. *matzicolihuiz*. ahzo aca tennecuilihuiz, tempatzihuiz, ixnecuilihuiz, ixhuitzalihuiz, iten papatlacaz, iten huihuiyocaz, yollotlahuelilotiz, itech quinehuaz, tencualacquizaz, matzicolihuiz, macopichahuiz, icxi quihuilanaz. etx. perhaps one of them would have twisted lips, or a shrunken mouth; or be cross-eyed or of weak vision; or his lips would quiver or quake; or he would be maddened--a devil would possess him and he would foam at the mouth; or he would have withered, twisted arms; or be lame, etc. (b.4 f.8 c.22 p.79) 9. *matzicoltic*. amo mahuihuitlatztic, amo matzicoltic, amo macuecuetzin, amo mapiltotomactic, he was not long-handed; he was not one-handed; he was not handless; he was not fat-fingered. (b.2 f.2 c.24 p.67) 10. *mitztzicololtiz*. in iuhcan in cuauhtla, zacatla, in ahuacan, in tepehuacan, aocmo tle ic tontlapolotiaz, aoc tle ic tonixmamauhtiaz, tonixmimictiaz, aoc tle mitztzicololtiz, aoc tle mitzixtilquetzaz: "in such places as forests, deserts, and cities, there is nothing to bring thee defeat, to frighten, daze, impede, or terrify thee.". (b.4 f.7 c.18 p.64) 11. *mocuatetzicoa*. mocuatexoloxima, mocuatezonoa, motlatetecilhuia, amo mayochiqui, amo mayoichiqui, amo mocuacoconaloa, amo mocuatetzicoa. their hair was shorn as if they were one's pages; their hair was cut; their hair was clipped; they were not clipped smooth like a gourd; they were not clipped bald like a gourd; their heads were not smooth like pots; they did not stick [hair] to the head. (b.2 f.3 c.24 p.69) 12. *motepetzichuia*. in inecuayia, oncan motlahzalhuia motepetzichuia. at its place of drinking raw maquey syrup, there it is noosed, it is caught with a wild chicle bait. (b.11 f.1 c.1 p.8) 13. *motzictlatlatza*. tziccuacua, motzictlatlatza, she chews chicle -- she clacks chicle. (b.10 f.3 c.15 p.56) 14. *motzictlatlatza*. auh in cihua tlahueliloque in mitoa ahuiyanime, atle innemamachiliz, huel mixmana: inic mantinemi in tziccuacua, in otlica in tianquizco motzictlatlatza: but the bad women, those called harlots, [show] no fine feelings; quite publicly they go about chewing chicle along the roads, in the market place, clacking like castanets. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 15. *nictzictilia*. nictzictilia, I solder it. (b.11 f.23 c.9 p.235) 16. *ontzicolo*. mochi tlacatl iuh connequi, in ma za huel onixpatlahua, onteyohua, onitauhcayohua, in maca tle ic onmopinauhti, ompinahuizcui, ompinahuiztlamati, ommomamati, ontzinquiza, ommixtilquetza, ic tehuicpa ontzicolo, all persons wished that they be given recognition, fame, and distinction; that they might not, on the contrary, be shamed, receive blame, be embarrassed, confused, belittled, confounded, or excluded from others. (b.4 f.11 c.37 p.122) 17. *quitlatzicoltia*. atle quitlazaloltia, atle quitlatzicoltia, nothing could he retain, nothing could he keep. (b.4 f.1 c.2 p.8) 18. *quitzicololtia*. atle quitzicololtia, amo pipinonemi, ahcan tzinquizcatlayecoa, nothing deterred him; he did not live in humiliation; nowhere did he turn tail in battle. (b.4 f.1 c.3 p.9) 19. *tacanaltzictli*. in tepetzictli tecanaltzictli, anozo tacanaltzictli: ca zan no iuhquin tzictli, the mountain chicle, or wild chicle, is just like [ordinary] chicle. <--tzictli> (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.90) 20. *tecanaltzictli*. in tepetzictli tecanaltzictli, anozo tacanaltzictli: ca zan no iuhquin tzictli, the mountain chicle, or wild chicle, is just like [ordinary] chicle. <--tzictli> (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.90) 21. *tepetzictli*. in tepetzictli tecanaltzictli, anozo tacanaltzictli: ca zan no iuhquin tzictli, the mountain chicle, or wild chicle, is just like [ordinary] chicle. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.90) 22. *tepetzictli*. in tepetzictli: ca xihuitl inelhuayo itech quicui. the mountain chicle is an herb; [the substance] is extracted from its root. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.90) 23. *tihual[t]lancuatzicolihuiz*. ma achi tictoca: inin timitzilhuia intlacamo iuh ticchihuaz tihualixpopoyotiz, tihuallancuatzicolihuiz, tihualcocototzahuiz: mayest thou in some way follow this which we tell thee; if thou dost not do thus, thou shalt become blind; thy knees, thy legs will become crippled. (b.9 f.5 c.12 p.57) 24. *titzicolo*. ximotlapalo, ma timopinoquetz, ma titzicolo. "be daring; be not timid because of shame; be not backward.". (b.1 f.1 c.12 p.25) 25. *tlatzicoa*. atle huel ic tlazaloya, atle huel ic tlaana, atle huel ic tlatzicoa, so nothing would be retained; he could hold nothing; nothing would be kept;. (b.4 f.1 c.2 p.7) 26. *tziccuacua*. tziccuacua, motzictlatlatza, she chews chicle -- she clacks chicle. (b.10 f.3 c.15 p.56) 27. *tziccuacua*. no yehuantin intech monequi in ye huel cihua in ye huel ichpopochti: ihuan mochin in cihua, in ichpopochti mixmana in tziccuacua. also the mature women, the unmarried women use it; and all the women who [are] unmarried chew chicle in public. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 28. *tziccuacua*. in tecihuahuan no tziccuacua no tziccuacua yece amo mixmana: one's wife also chews chicle, but not in public. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 29. *tziccuacua*. in tecihuahuan no tziccuacua no tziccuacua yece amo mixmana: one's wife also chews chicle, but not in public. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 30. *tziccuacua*. no yehuanti in cacahualti, ihuan ilamatque tziccuacua, amo mixmana. also the widowed and the old women do not, in public. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 31. *tziccuacua*. auh in cihua tlahueliloque in mitoa ahuiyanime, atle innemamachiliz, huel mixmana: inic mantinemi in tziccuacua, in otlica in tianquizco motzictlatlatza: but the bad women, those called harlots, [show] no fine feelings; quite publicly they go about chewing chicle along the roads, in the market place, clacking like castanets. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 32. *tziccuacua*. inic tziccuacua cihua ipampa ic quiquixtia in imiztlac, ihuan ic mocamaahuialia, mocamahuelilia, for this reason the women chew chicle: because thereby they cause their saliva to flow and thereby the mouths are scented; the mouth is given a pleasing taste. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 33. *tziccuacua*. ipampa in tziccuacua inic amo ihiyalozque. thus they chew chicle in order not to be detested. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 34. *tziccuacua*. in oquichtin no tziccuacua: inic quiquixtia imiztlac ihuan ic motlampaca: auh inin cenca ichtaca, zan niman amo mixmana. the men also chew chicle to cause their saliva to flow and to clean the teeth, but this very secretly --never in public. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 35. *tziccuacua*. auh in aquin teixpan tziccuacua in toquichti cuitoyotl cahci, chimouhcayotl quinehuihuilia. and the men who publicly chew chicle achieve the status of sodomites; they equal the effeminates. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.90) 36. *tziccuacualiztli*. auh in impaniti tziccuacualiztli in innemac, yehuantin in ichpopochtotonti, in ichpochtepitoton, in cihuapipiltotonti: and the chewing of chicle [is] the preference, the privilege of the little girls, the small girls, the young women. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 37. *tziccuacualiztli*. in cocoxque in intoca chimouhque: huel innemac, in tziccuacualiztli, the chewing of chicle [is] the real privilege of the addicts termed "effeminates. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 38. *tziccuacuaz*. quitoa, amo tziccuacuaz in otztli, ca in ihcuac tlacatiz piltontli: zan mach motentzotzopotzaz, zan mach tlacuacuaz: ic mitoa motentzoponiz, totomahuaz in itenxipal, she said the pregnant woman should not chew chicle, for when the baby was born, its lips would be no more than perforated; its lips would thicken. (b.6 f.13 c.27 p.156) 39. *tzicoliuhqui*. anozo ixnextentlapallo, anoce ihhuitica tetecomayo, anozo itzmixicalcoliuhqui, ihuan tlazomaxtlatl, anoce tzicoliuhqui maxtlatl, ayacaichcayo, izazo quexquich tlazomaxtlatl, or the ashen gray one with red eyes on the border; or with earthen jars designed in feathers; or with the obsidian arrow step design; and costly breech clouts -- perhaps the breech clout with twisted ends, [or] with cotton at the ends -- various kinds of costly breech clouts;. (b.8 f.5 c.20 p.74) 40. *tzicoliuhqui*. quinamaca in nepapan ihhuitl, in tlazoihhuitl, quinamaca in quetzalli in chilchotic, in tzicoliuhqui in pilihhuitl. he sells various feathers -- precious feathers; he sells fine green feathers, chili-green feathers, those curved at the tip, the feathers of young birds. (b.10 f.4 c.16 p.61) 41. *tzicoliuhqui*. in iatlapaltitech onoc: inic centlamantli, in huel iiacol yacac ixhua: itoca tzicoliuhqui: on its wing, one kind which grows at the very point of the wing-bend is called tzicoliuhqui. (b.11 f.2 c.2 p.20) 42. *tzicoliuhqui*. in quihualtoquilia itoca, tzicoliuhqui: those which follow are called tzicoliuhqui [middle coverts]. (b.11 f.6 c.2 p.55) 43. *tzicoltic*. zan cualton, tzintliltic, xoxohuic, achi tzicoltic. they are of average size, black at the base, flesh-colored, somewhat curved. (b.11 f.2 c.2 p.20) 44. *tzictia*. in ipan quitlaza iztac teocuitlatl ic caltia, ic tzictia. they add it to silver [solder] to give it binding power, to make it adhere. (b.9 f.6 c.16 p.76) 45. *tzictia*. moneloa in tenextli, ic tzauctia, ic tzictia, ic tepitzahui. It is mixed with lime; thus it becomes sticky, thus it becomes adhesive; thus it hardens. (b.11 f.24 c.12 p.255) 46. *tzictic*. itech quiztica in itoca tetl, ihuan zoquitl: ipampa ca tlacuahuac, tzictic, tepitztic, cuichehuac, tlilehuac, chapopotic, its name comes from tetl [rock] and ?oquitl [mud], because it is firm, gummy, hard; dark, blackish, bitumen-like. (b.11 f.24 c.12 p.252) 47. *tzictli*. quinamaca tlapalhuatzalli, tlacuahuac tlapalli, tlapalnextli, nocheztli, zacatlaxcalli texotli, tetizatl, tlilli, tlacehuilli, tlalxocotl, axi, tzictli, tlaaxnelolli, tlahuitl, tlilxochitl, mecaxochitl huei nacaztli, teonacaztli, tlacuatl, tlacuacuitlapilli, xiuhtotonti tlanelhuatotonti, chapopohtli, tecopalli, copalli, nacazcolotl, quimichpatli, matlalin, tlaliyac, apetztli. he sells dried pigment, bars of cochineal pigment, cochineal mixed with chalk or flour, [pure] cochineal; light yellow, sky blue pigment; chalk, lampblack, dark blue pigment; alum, axin, chicle, bitumen-mixed chicle, red ochre; tlilsochitl, mecaxochitl, uei nacaztli, teonacaztli; opossum, opossum tail; small herbs, small roots; bitumen, resin, copal; nacazcolotl, quimichpatli; a blue coloring made from blossoms; sulfate of copper, iron pyrites. (b.10 f.4 c.21 p.77) 48. *tzictli*. auh inin quicuacua itoca tzictli, and what they chew [is] named chicle. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) 49. *tzictli*. in tepetzictli tecanaltzictli, anozo tacanaltzictli: ca zan no iuhquin tzictli, the mountain chicle, or wild chicle, is just like [ordinary] chicle. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.90) 50. *tzictli*. auh in tzictli inic mocuacua: ca tetzontecon cuacuauhtilia, quicocoa in tetzontecon. but the [other] chicle, when it is chewed, tires one's head; it gives one a headache. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.90) 51. *tzitziccuacua*. in oc cequintin cihuah in teixpan tzitziccuacua cihuatlahuelilocayotl cahci. other women who constantly chew chicle in public achieve the attributes of evil women. (b.10 f.5 c.24 p.89) From amoxtli at EARTHLINK.NET Wed May 4 19:45:51 2005 From: amoxtli at EARTHLINK.NET (Walter Koenig) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:45:51 -0700 Subject: English-Nahuatl Dictionary / Translation Message-ID: Greetings, I am seeking a reliable English-Nahuatl Dictionary or word list for translating from Nahuatl to English. I have the "Hippocrene Concise Dictionary Nahuatl-English English-Nahuatl" by Fermin Herrera and the "English to Nahuatl Glossary" based on the word list of R. Joe Campbell organized by Anthony Appleyard. Are there any other sources available? Many thanks for your help. Best Wishes, Walter O. Koenig From idiez at MAC.COM Wed May 4 19:52:25 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 14:52:25 -0500 Subject: English-Nahuatl Dictionary / Translation In-Reply-To: <9af4b811611aadbf6b9daa79666ffe35@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Walter, Use the Hippocrene Dictionary for wrapping fish. What you want is the Frances Karttunen's, An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl,. It can be purchased through Amazon.com for $30, or through University of Oklahoma Press (www.oupress.com/bookdetail.asp?isbn=0-8061-2421-0) also for $30. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On May 4, 2005, at 2:45 PM, Walter Koenig wrote: > Greetings, > > I am seeking a reliable English-Nahuatl Dictionary or word list for > translating from Nahuatl to English. > > I have the "Hippocrene Concise Dictionary Nahuatl-English > English-Nahuatl" by Fermin Herrera > and the "English to Nahuatl Glossary" based on the word list of R. Joe > Campbell organized by Anthony Appleyard. > > Are there any other sources available? > > Many thanks for your help. > > Best Wishes, > > Walter O. Koenig > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1252 bytes Desc: not available URL: From micc2 at COX.NET Thu May 5 00:20:07 2005 From: micc2 at COX.NET (micc2) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 17:20:07 -0700 Subject: English-Nahuatl Dictionary / Translation In-Reply-To: <65e140f221a1ad8eee9f7a6acd3572f8@mac.com> Message-ID: michpilquentzin? idiez at MAC.COM wrote: > Walter, > Use the Hippocrene Dictionary for wrapping fish. What you want is the > Frances Karttunen's, /An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl/,. It can be > purchased through Amazon.com for $30, or through University of > Oklahoma Press (www.oupress.com/bookdetail.asp?isbn=0-8061-2421-0) > also for $30. > John > > John Sullivan, Ph.D. > Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua > Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas > Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas > Director > Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. > Tacuba 152, int. 47 > Centro Hist?rico > Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 > M?xico > Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 > Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 > Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 > Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 > idiez at mac.com > www.idiez.org.mx > > On May 4, 2005, at 2:45 PM, Walter Koenig wrote: > > Greetings, > > I am seeking a reliable English-Nahuatl Dictionary or word list for > translating from Nahuatl to English. > > I have the "Hippocrene Concise Dictionary Nahuatl-English > English-Nahuatl" by Fermin Herrera > and the "English to Nahuatl Glossary" based on the word list of R. > Joe > Campbell organized by Anthony Appleyard. > > Are there any other sources available? > > Many thanks for your help. > > Best Wishes, > > Walter O. Koenig > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 5 16:25:55 2005 From: teddy_30 at HOTMAIL.COM (Steffen Haurholm-Larsen) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 16:25:55 +0000 Subject: What kind of nawatl? In-Reply-To: <9af4b811611aadbf6b9daa79666ffe35@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hi Walter I was wondering what kind of nawatl you want to translate, is it classical nawatl or some modern dialect? If your interest lies with classical nawatl then the best dictionary you can get is "Vocabulario en lengua castellana y mexicana" by Alonso de Molina. That of course requires knowledge of spanish. The other option of getting the Molina information is by getting your hands on "A Morphological Dictionary of Classical Nahuatl: Index to the Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellana of Fray Alonso de Molina" by Joe Campbell. If you know french then there is a dictionary in french partially based on Molinas Vocabulario as well, its called "Dictionnaire de la Langue Nahuatl ou Mexicaine" by R?mi Sim?on. The most frequently used words of Molinas Vocabulario appears in An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl by Frances Karttunen. Of course you should be aware that some of the entries are based on classical nawatl material while others are drawn from modern sources. I hope you will find the diccionary you are looking for or at least a library that has it. Best regards Steffen H.-Larsen, University of Copenhagen >From: Walter Koenig >Reply-To: Nahua language and culture discussion >To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >Subject: Re: English-Nahuatl Dictionary / Translation >Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:45:51 -0700 > >Greetings, > >I am seeking a reliable English-Nahuatl Dictionary or word list for >translating from Nahuatl to English. > >I have the "Hippocrene Concise Dictionary Nahuatl-English >English-Nahuatl" by Fermin Herrera >and the "English to Nahuatl Glossary" based on the word list of R. Joe >Campbell organized by Anthony Appleyard. > >Are there any other sources available? > >Many thanks for your help. > >Best Wishes, > >Walter O. Koenig _________________________________________________________________ F? alle de nye og sjove ikoner med MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.dk/ From Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM Sat May 7 15:44:52 2005 From: Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM (Ian Mursell) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 16:44:52 +0100 Subject: etymology of tzictli In-Reply-To: <12ddb074fcc66c60d0ccbe052d865e00@nantucket.net> Message-ID: Thank you Frances and Joe for your helpful information on this. Could I just ask if you could throw any light on the word 'tlaaxnelolli' which appears in translation as 'bitumen-mixed-chicle'? Best regards, Ian Mexicolore London From dacosentino at EARTHLINK.NET Sat May 7 18:45:55 2005 From: dacosentino at EARTHLINK.NET (Delia Cosentino) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 13:45:55 -0500 Subject: tepi In-Reply-To: <9af4b811611aadbf6b9daa79666ffe35@earthlink.net> Message-ID: I am working with an AGN document involving a woman with the surname 'tepi', the meaning of which I am trying to parse (Is the 'pi' of pic, to pluck? Any other suggestions?). I'm wondering if there is any way that 'tepi' could jibe with a name glyph made up of a stylized stream of water grasped by a hand, which is found in an associated image of a woman? From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sat May 7 18:59:46 2005 From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 20:59:46 +0200 Subject: tepi Message-ID: "tepi" means little, generally its appears with either the -tzin or -ton diminutive suffix. -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Delia Cosentino Sent: zaterdag 7 mei 2005 20:46 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: tepi I am working with an AGN document involving a woman with the surname 'tepi', the meaning of which I am trying to parse (Is the 'pi' of pic, to pluck? Any other suggestions?). I'm wondering if there is any way that 'tepi' could jibe with a name glyph made up of a stylized stream of water grasped by a hand, which is found in an associated image of a woman? From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Sun May 8 04:03:25 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 23:03:25 -0500 Subject: tlaaxnellolli In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ian, *Just* from the point of view of the elements contained in 'tlaaxnelolli', it would seem not to refer literally to "bitumen" or "chicle". 'nelihui' -- "swirl" 'neloa' (causative) -- "stir, mix" 'tlanelolli' (patientive noun) -- "something which is mixed" 'a:xin' "insect which yields a secretion" 'tlaaxnelolli' -- "something which is mixed 'axinly'" (with axin) Molina's secretions of 'axin' are down below (along with those of the Florentine). Joe Quoting Ian Mursell : > Could I just ask if you could throw any light on the word 'tlaaxnelolli' > which appears in translation as 'bitumen-mixed-chicle'? > *a:xin*** axcuahuitl. . . b.10 f.5 axhuia , c-. they put axin in it. . b.10 f.5 axhuia , m[o]-. axin is provided, axin is applied. . b.10 f.5 axhuia =nitla. barnizar con este barniz. . 71m1- 3 axhuia =nitla=onitlaaxhui. vntar o embixar algo con cierto vnguento que se llama axin. . 71m2-2 axhuiani =tla. barnizador desta manera. . 71m1-3 axhuiliztli =tla. barnizamiento tal. . 71m1-3 axhuilli , tla-. rubbed with axin. . b.10 f.5 axhuilli =tla. barnizada cosa, assi. . 71m1-3 axi. ; axin. . b.10 f.4 axin. . . b.10 f.5 axin. barniz de otra manera; cierto vnguento desta tierra. . 71m1-3 axin. axin. . b.3 f.1 axio. . . b.10 f.8 axixipetzcoa , m[o]-. she repeatedly anoints herself with axin. . b.10 f.3 axnelolli , tla-. something which has axin mixed in. . b.10 f.4 axneloltica , tla-. with axin mixed in, by means of an axin mixture. . b.10 f.8 axpetzcoa , m[o]-. she anoints herself with axin. . b.10 f.3 axtica. with axin, using axin. . b.10 f.9 copalaxtica. using an unguent of burned copal incense. . b.8 f.3 tenaxhuilo , ne-. there is applying of axin to the lips. . b.10 f.5 teoaxi. . . b.10 f.9 teohuaxi. . . b.10 f.9 tlilaxi. . . b.10 f.8 tlilaxio. . . b.10 f.8 From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Mon May 9 13:36:33 2005 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 08:36:33 -0500 Subject: Molina Arte Message-ID: The Biblioteca Cervantes Virtual has just posted the facsimile edition of Fr. Andres de Molina's Arte de la lengua mexicana. http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/FichaObra.html?Ref=13906 John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Mon May 9 13:37:55 2005 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 08:37:55 -0500 Subject: Molina Confessionario Message-ID: The Biblioteca Cervantes has also published the facsimile edition of Molina's Confessionario breve en lengua mexicana http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/FichaObra.html?Ref=13909 John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM Tue May 10 17:00:28 2005 From: Ian.Mursell at BTINTERNET.COM (Ian Mursell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 18:00:28 +0100 Subject: tlaaxnellolli In-Reply-To: <1115525005.427d8f8d359fe@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Thank you very much for this, Joe - much appreciated. Ian Mexicolore, London > Ian, > > *Just* from the point of view of the elements contained in 'tlaaxnelolli', > it would seem not to refer literally to "bitumen" or "chicle". > > 'nelihui' -- "swirl" > 'neloa' (causative) -- "stir, mix" > 'tlanelolli' (patientive noun) -- "something which is mixed" > 'a:xin' "insect which yields a secretion" > 'tlaaxnelolli' -- "something which is mixed 'axinly'" (with axin) > > Molina's secretions of 'axin' are down below (along with those of the > Florentine). > > Joe > > Quoting Ian Mursell : > >> Could I just ask if you could throw any light on the word 'tlaaxnelolli' >> which appears in translation as 'bitumen-mixed-chicle'? >> > > > *a:xin*** > axcuahuitl. . . b.10 f.5 > axhuia , c-. they put axin in it. . b.10 f.5 > axhuia , m[o]-. axin is provided, axin is applied. . > b.10 f.5 > axhuia =nitla. barnizar con este barniz. . 71m1- > 3 > axhuia =nitla=onitlaaxhui. vntar o embixar algo con cierto vnguento > que se llama axin. . 71m2-2 > axhuiani =tla. barnizador desta manera. . 71m1-3 > axhuiliztli =tla. barnizamiento tal. . 71m1-3 > axhuilli , tla-. rubbed with axin. . b.10 f.5 > axhuilli =tla. barnizada cosa, assi. . 71m1-3 > axi. ; axin. . b.10 f.4 > axin. . . b.10 f.5 > axin. barniz de otra manera; cierto vnguento desta tierra. . > 71m1-3 > axin. axin. . b.3 f.1 > axio. . . b.10 f.8 > axixipetzcoa , m[o]-. she repeatedly anoints herself with axin. a:xin-dupl-xi?-petzcahui-caus06>. b.10 f.3 > axnelolli , tla-. something which has axin mixed in. nelihui-caus06-l1>. b.10 f.4 > axneloltica , tla-. with axin mixed in, by means of an axin mixture. > . b.10 f.8 > axpetzcoa , m[o]-. she anoints herself with axin. petzcahui-caus06>. b.10 f.3 > axtica. with axin, using axin. . b.10 f.9 > copalaxtica. using an unguent of burned copal incense. ti1-ca2>. b.8 f.3 > tenaxhuilo , ne-. there is applying of axin to the lips. a:xin-v05b-lo:1>. b.10 f.5 > teoaxi. . . b.10 f.9 > teohuaxi. . . b.10 f.9 > tlilaxi. . . b.10 f.8 > tlilaxio. . . b.10 f.8 From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Wed May 11 05:56:00 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 00:56:00 -0500 Subject: Molina Confessionario In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050509083700.04211b10@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Fritz's message about the availability of the Molina material available in facsimile on the website in Spain stirred me from the procastinatory stupor that I had been trapped in for the last five years. I had received a CD from Digibis with 38 documents in facsimile in 2000 and have used it heavily since then. Occasionally I have told myself that the listeros of Nahuat-l would enjoy the ready information on it ... and that I would search for the index tomorrow, man~ana, moztla, ... I include the information that I retrieved today, no worse for the wear (a bit dusty since it has lain up in the attic of my hard disk for all this time). The price of the CD in 2000 was 30,000 pesetas. With apologies, Joe OBRAS CLaSICAS SOBRE LA LENGUA NaHUATL [CD-Rom]. Compilacion de Ascension Hernandez de Leon-Portilla. Coleccion "Clasicos Tavera". Serie IX: Fuentes Ling=FCisticas Indigenas. Volumen 8. Numero 16. Madrid. Fundacion Historica Tavera y Digibis. 1998. Obras clasicas sobre la lengua Nahuatl forma parte de un amplio proyecto, la "Coleccion Clasicos Tavera", cuyo objetivo es la edicion en CD-Rom de las obras mas relevantes para el conocimiento del pasado de los paises, regiones y ciudades de America Latina, Espanna, Portugal y Filipinas, asi como de ciertos temas monograficos relacionados con esas mismas areas geograficas. El numero 16 contiene una seleccion de textos (36 libros sobre artes, vocabularios, doctrinas, confesionarios, manuales de sacramento, otros libros de tema religioso y antigua palabra, con unas 10.000 paginas aproximadamente) compilados por la Dra. Ascension Hernandez de Leon Portilla, y una amplia y bien concebida introduccion en la que se explica el por que de la eleccion y se revisa brevemente lo que se sabe sobre la lengua nahuatl y la importancia que dichos textos tienen para su estudio. Las obras han sido digitalizadas en edicion facsimilar. El manejo y consulta del CD-Rom es sencillo, no obstante, cuenta con una buena guia de ayuda, un sumario general en el que se detallan los contenidos y a traves del que es posible realizar busquedas por distintos campos (uno a uno o varios a la vez): autor, titulo, palabras clave, y una ficha independiente para cada uno de los textos en la que, aparte de sus caracteristicas, se incluye un indice que permite busquedas similares a las del sumario general. El sistema ofrece distintos tipos de visualizacion (zoom, rotacion e inversion de imagen, modificacion de los niveles de contraste), y permite seleccionar partes del contenido y guardarlas en cualquier otro soporte magnetico e imprimirlas con una calidad muy superior a la de una fotocopia convencional. En definitiva, la edicion digital pone a disposicion del investigador un acceso integral y sencillo a la documentacion. A continuacion detallamos en contenido del CD-Rom. indice de la obra: ALDAMA y GUEVARA, Jose Agustin (1754): Arte de la lengua mexicana. Mexico. Imprenta de la Lengua mexicana. ALVA, Bartolome de (1634): Confessionario mayor y menor de la lengua mexicana: y platicas contra las supersticiones de idolatria... Mexico. Francisco Salbago. AQUINO CORTeS Y CEDEnnO, Geronymo Thomas de (1765): Arte, vocabulario y confessionario en el idioma mexicano: como se usa el en Obispado de Guadalajara. Puebla de los angeles (Mexico). Imprenta del Colegio Real de San Ignacio de Puebla de los angeles. ARENAS, Pedro de (1611): Vocabulario manual de las lenguas castellana y mexicana. Mexico. Henrico Martinez. BAUTISTA, (Fray) Juan (1600): Advertencias para los confessores de los naturales... (2 volumenes). Tlatilulco - Convento de Santiago de Tlatilulco. M. Ocharte. BAUTISTA, (Fray) Juan (1600): Huehuetlahtolli: que contiene las platicas... Tlatilulco. Convento de Santiago de Tlatilulco. BAUTISTA, (Fray) Juan (1606): A Iesu Christo S.N. ofrece este sermonario en lengua mexicana. Mexico. Casa de Diego Lopez Davalos. CARCHI, Horacio (1645): Arte de la lengua mexicana con la declaracion de los adverbios della. Mexico. Juan Ruyz. Doctirna christiana en lengua espannola y mexicana: hecha por los religiosos de la Orden de Santiago (1548). Mexico. Casa de Juan Pablos. GALDO GUZMaN, (Fray) Diego de (1642): Arte mexicano. Mexico. Viuda de Bernardo Calderon. GANTE, (Fray) Pedro (1553): Doctrina Christiana en lengua mexicana. Mexico. Casa de Juan Pablos. GAONA, (Fray) Juan de (1582): Colloquios de la paz y tranquilidad christiana, en lengua mexicana. Mexico. Casa de Juan Plablos. GARCiA ICAZBALCETA, Joaquin (1889): Nueva coleccion de documentos para la historia de Mexico (2 volumenes). Mexico. Antigua Libreria de Andrade y Morales, Sucesores, Tomo I (Codice Franciscano, siglo XVI). GUERRA, (Fray) Juan (1692): Arte de la lengua mexicana: que fue usual entre los indios del Obispado de Guadalajara y de parte de los de Durango y Michoacan. Guadalajara. Viuda de Francisco Rodriguez Lupericio. GUERRA, (Fray) Juan (1900): Arte de la lengua mexicana: que fue usual entre los indios del Obispado de Guadalajara y de parte de los de Durango y Michoacan. Guadalajara. Alberto Santoscoy. LASSO DE LA VEGA, Luis (1649): Huei tlamahvizoltica omonexiti in Ilhuicac Tlatoca Cichuapilli... Mexico. Imprenta Iuan Ruyz. LEoN, (Fray) Martin de (1611): Camino del cielo en lengua mexicana... Mexico. Imprenta de Diego Lopez Davalos. MIJANGOS, Fray Juan de (1607): Espejo divino en lengua mexicana en que pueden verse los Padres y tomar documento para acercar a adoptrinar bien a sus hijos, y aficionallos a las virtudes. Mexico. Imprenta de Diego Lopez Davalos. MOLINA, (Fray) Alonso de (1555): Aqui comienza un vocubalario en la lengua castellana y mexicana. Mexico. Casa de Juan Pablos. MOLINA, (Fray) Alonso de (1565): Confessionario breve en lengua mexicana y castellana. Mexico. Casa de Antonio de Spinosa. MOLINA, (Fray) Alonso de (1565): Confessionario Mayor en lengua mexicana y castellana. Mexico. Casa de Antonio de Spinosa. MOLINA, (Fray) Alonso de (1571): Arte de la lengua mexicana y castellana. Mexico. Casa de Pedro Ocharte. MOLINA, (Fray) Alonso de (1571): Vocabulario en lengua mexicana y castellana. Mexico. Casa de Antonio de Spinosa. OLMOS, (Fray) Ignacio de (1547): Arte de la lengua mexicana. [S.l.]. [S.n.]. PAREDES, Ignacio de (1759): Promptuario manual mexicano. Mexico. Imprenta de la Biblioteca Mexicana. PeREZ, (Fray) Manuel (1713): Arte del idioma mexicano. Mexico. Francisco Rivera Calderon. PeREZ, (Fray) Manuel (1713): Farol indiano y guia de curas de indios... Mexico. Francisco Rivera Calderon. RINCoN, Antonio del (1595): Arte mexicana. Casa de Pedro Balli. RIPALDA, Geronymo de (1758): Catecismo mexicano que contiene toda la doctrina christiana... Mexico. Imprenta de la Biblioteca Mexicana. SAAVEDRA, (Fray) Marcos de (1746): Confessionario breve activo y pasivo en lengua mexicana... Mexico. Imprenta Real del Superior Gobierno, del Nuevo Rezado, de Donna Maria de Rivera. SAENZ DE LA PEnnA, Andres (1642): Manual de los Santos Sacramentos...= Mexico. Francisco Robledo. SAHAGuN, (Fray) Bernardino de (1583): Psalmodia Christiana y Sermonario de los Sanctos del Anno, en lengua mexicana. Mexico. Con licencia en Casa de Pedro Ocharte. SANDOVAL, Rafael (1888): Arte de la lengua mexicana. Ramon Garcia Raya. TAPIA CENTENO, Carlos de (1753): Arte novissima de lengua mexicana... Mexico. Viuda de Joseph Bernardo de Hogal. VaZQUEZ GATELU, Antonio (1689): Arte de Lengua Mexicana. [S.l.]. Fernandez de Leon VETANCOURT, (Fray) Agustin (1673): Arte de lengua mexicana... Mexico. Francisco Rodriguez Lupericio. From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Wed May 11 13:28:48 2005 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 08:28:48 -0500 Subject: Molina Confessionario In-Reply-To: <1115790960.42819e708ce28@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: At 12:56 AM 5/11/2005, campbel at indiana.edu wrote: > I include the information that I retrieved today, no worse for the wear (a >bit dusty since it has lain up in the attic of my hard disk for all this >time). > The price of the CD in 2000 was 30,000 pesetas. Unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge, the CD is now out of print. Miguel Leon-Portilla gave me a copy some time ago, and then last year told me that it was no longer available. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From dfrye at UMICH.EDU Wed May 11 15:30:02 2005 From: dfrye at UMICH.EDU (Frye, David) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:30:02 -0400 Subject: Molina Confessionario Message-ID: The University of Michigan library has a copy of this CD. I don't know what the policy is for interlibrary loan of materials on CD, but at least it is available publicly over here. (And, by the way, Joe DID send this info out to the list some years ago -- that was how I found out about it and passed the news on to our librarian.) Title Obras cl?sicas sobre la lengua N?huatl. [electronic resource] [Ascensi?n Hern?ndez de Le?n-Portilla (comp.)]. Published Madrid : Fundaci?n Hist?rica Tavera : Digibis, c1998. Format Electronic Resource Computer File System Req'ts. System requirements: IBM PC or compatible; MS-DOS 6.0; Windows 3.1 or higher; 8 MB RAM (16 recommended); 10 MB free hard disk space; VGA monitor; CD-ROM drive. Publisher No. M-35370-1998 Series Colecci?n Cl?sicos tavera. Serie IX. Fuentes ling??sticas ind?genas, v. 8. Summary Texts originally issued between 1547 and 1900. Subject-Lib. Cong. Nahuatl language -- Early works to 1800 -- Databases. Nahuatl language -- Databases. Mexico -- Languages -- History -- Early works to 1800 -- Databases. Mexico -- Languages -- History -- Databases. ISBN 8489763275 Location Hatcher Graduate - Graduate Library Mixed Media | CD-ROM GL52 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Frye Latin American & Caribbean Studies - LACS International Institute, University of Michigan 2607 School of Social Work Bldg Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1106 tel (734) 647 0844 - fax (734) 615-8880 From dacosentino at EARTHLINK.NET Thu May 12 21:35:48 2005 From: dacosentino at EARTHLINK.NET (Delia Cosentino) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 16:35:48 -0500 Subject: tepi In-Reply-To: <180D418BCB847A49986CFB7C544B6EC3C8D5C4@WSDPD-XC01.wsdpd.wsdad.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: Thanks, and just a follow up: is this related to tepilzin at all, i.e. suggesting descent or an offspring, or does it have totally separate linguistic origins? Also, how might people read the name glyph of the stylized stream of water grasped by a hand? Something like...(apologies in advance)...Al(t)mapitchtli? -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Swanton, M. Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 2:00 PM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: tepi "tepi" means little, generally its appears with either the -tzin or -ton diminutive suffix. -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Delia Cosentino Sent: zaterdag 7 mei 2005 20:46 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: tepi I am working with an AGN document involving a woman with the surname 'tepi', the meaning of which I am trying to parse (Is the 'pi' of pic, to pluck? Any other suggestions?). I'm wondering if there is any way that 'tepi' could jibe with a name glyph made up of a stylized stream of water grasped by a hand, which is found in an associated image of a woman? From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Thu May 12 23:18:10 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:18:10 -0500 Subject: tepi In-Reply-To: <000001c5573a$93650cc0$6501a8c0@Delia> Message-ID: "tepiltzin" (note the -tzin) falls apart in different way from "tepi" (which doesn't fall apart at all). "tepi" is a morpheme, so it has no sub-parts, no constituents. On the occe maitl, "tepiltzin": te pil(li) tzin someone's child endearing diminutive suffix With regard to your "a(l(t))-mapitchtli", I doubt that "a:(tl)" combines with the rest of it in its rarer "al-" form, so it would probably show up as "a-". In the most common Nahuatl spelling the /ch/ phoneme is spelled "ch" (although the unitary sound of /ch/ *does* contain a kind of "t"). With the leading element "cem-", Molina gives both "cemmapichtli" and "cemmapictli": cemmapichtli haze o haz de cosas menudas; manojo, o hace de cosas menudas cemmapictli ; pun~o o pun~ado assi de cosas largas; como de pajas o yeruas cem ma:(itl) pi:qui [patientive noun derivation] one, complete hand squeeze (The "ch" form is a variant which is seen frequently in patientive nouns.) Joe Quoting Delia Cosentino : > Thanks, and just a follow up: is this related to tepilzin at all, i.e. > suggesting descent or an offspring, or does it have totally separate > linguistic origins? > Also, how might people read the name glyph of the stylized stream of water > grasped by a hand? Something like...(apologies in > advance)...Al(t)mapitchtli? > > From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU Fri May 13 03:09:00 2005 From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:09:00 -0600 Subject: Dating Spelling Conventions Message-ID: I'm working on a Tlaxcalan manuscript written around A.D. 1600. The scribe follows the spelling teuctli, but a later editorial hand (added after some degradation of the paper had occurred) uses the spelling teuhtli. Is anything known about when that spelling (teuhtli) arose or where? I'm wondering whether this spelling difference can be used to say anything about how much later the editor made his additions or if he may have been trained in a different region. Richley From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Fri May 13 03:23:11 2005 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 20:23:11 -0700 Subject: tepi In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: there's a actress, Rachel Ticotin, that has starred in many movies since her career started, I was just wondering what her last name means, so far I haven't found anything resembling 'tico'tin..... ACGARCIA --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Sun May 15 00:14:51 2005 From: jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9?= Rabasa) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 17:14:51 -0700 Subject: ordinal numbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Listeros: I am working on the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and found sections of the first folio incomprehensible. Accorfing to Kirchhoff's transcription: chacui ---chini tanquehue xihuiqui motlatzin ximotlali ypan ycpalli --- chitao xihuiqui motlatzin ximotlali ypan ycpalli (xi-huica mo-tlatzin xi-motlali y-pan ycpalli: come uncle sit on the seat) I don't know (like Kirchhoff) what to make out of "chacui chini tanquehue" and the "chitao" at the end. Likewise with chacui qieaha tanquehe chacui tachi tanquehue Chontana dios chati (dios is easy enough) etc. I am wondering if these phrases are sounds that convey cries for gathering. I would appreciate any light on these. Jose Rabasa From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Tue May 17 01:46:49 2005 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:46:49 -0400 Subject: tepi In-Reply-To: <1115939890.4283e4326bb95@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I think the name Delia was inquiring about is A:cama:pi:chtli. Ma:pi:ch-tli means 'fist.' A:ca-tl is reed. Rather than representing water, the water glyph emerging from a fist would be a phonetic hint that the name in question begins with the vowel/syllable a:. On May 12, 2005, at 7:18 PM, campbel at INDIANA.EDU wrote: > "tepiltzin" (note the -tzin) falls apart in different way from > "tepi" (which > doesn't fall apart at all). "tepi" is a morpheme, so it has no > sub-parts, no > constituents. On the occe maitl, "tepiltzin": > > te pil(li) tzin > someone's child endearing diminutive suffix > > With regard to your "a(l(t))-mapitchtli", I doubt that "a:(tl)" > combines with > the rest of it in its rarer "al-" form, so it would probably show up > as "a-". > In the most common Nahuatl spelling the /ch/ phoneme is spelled "ch" > (although > the unitary sound of /ch/ *does* contain a kind of "t"). With the > leading > element "cem-", Molina gives both "cemmapichtli" and "cemmapictli": > > cemmapichtli haze o haz de cosas menudas; manojo, o hace de cosas > menudas > > cemmapictli ; pun~o o pun~ado assi > de cosas > largas; como de pajas o yeruas > > cem ma:(itl) pi:qui [patientive noun > derivation] > one, complete hand squeeze > > (The "ch" form is a variant which is seen frequently in patientive > nouns.) > > Joe > > > Quoting Delia Cosentino : > >> Thanks, and just a follow up: is this related to tepilzin at all, i.e. >> suggesting descent or an offspring, or does it have totally separate >> linguistic origins? >> Also, how might people read the name glyph of the stylized stream of >> water >> grasped by a hand? Something like...(apologies in >> advance)...Al(t)mapitchtli? >> >> > From mwswanton at YAHOO.COM Tue May 17 20:55:16 2005 From: mwswanton at YAHOO.COM (Michael Swanton) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 13:55:16 -0700 Subject: ordinal numbers In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The curious text on the first folio of the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca is bilingual: Nahuatl-Popoloca. The parts you found incomprehensible are the Popoloca parts. Actually, the second language on this page was correctly identified by Walter Lehmann in the 1920s. It was later explored further by Preuss & Mengin in their 1938 edition of the HTCh. Su servidor published a short, speculative article on this text a couple years ago, which has an online accessible version (http://www.colmich.edu.mx/relaciones/86/pdf/Michael%20W.%20Swanton.pdf). The references should be there. I hope this is of some help. regards, Mike Swanton --- Jos? Rabasa wrote: > Dear Listeros: > > I am working on the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and > found sections of > the first folio incomprehensible. Accorfing to > Kirchhoff's > transcription: > > chacui ---chini tanquehue xihuiqui motlatzin > ximotlali ypan ycpalli --- chitao > > xihuiqui motlatzin ximotlali ypan ycpalli (xi-huica > mo-tlatzin > xi-motlali y-pan ycpalli: come uncle sit on the > seat) > > I don't know (like Kirchhoff) what to make out of > "chacui chini > tanquehue" and the "chitao" at the end. Likewise > with > > chacui qieaha tanquehe > > chacui tachi tanquehue > > > Chontana dios chati (dios is easy enough) etc. > > I am wondering if these phrases are sounds that > convey cries for gathering. > > I would appreciate any light on these. > > Jose Rabasa > Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/ From jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Tue May 17 22:18:12 2005 From: jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Rabasa?=) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:18:12 -0700 Subject: ordinal numbers In-Reply-To: <20050517205516.69204.qmail@web31711.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Many thanks, for the references. I will look up your article. Jose >The curious text on the first folio of the Historia >Tolteca-Chichimeca is bilingual: Nahuatl-Popoloca. The >parts you found incomprehensible are the Popoloca >parts. > >Actually, the second language on this page was >correctly identified by Walter Lehmann in the 1920s. >It was later explored further by Preuss & Mengin in >their 1938 edition of the HTCh. Su servidor published >a short, speculative article on this text a couple >years ago, which has an online accessible version >(http://www.colmich.edu.mx/relaciones/86/pdf/Michael%20W.%20Swanton.pdf). >The references should be there. I hope this is of some >help. > >regards, >Mike Swanton > > >--- Jos? Rabasa wrote: >> Dear Listeros: >> >> I am working on the Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca and >> found sections of >> the first folio incomprehensible. Accorfing to >> Kirchhoff's >> transcription: >> >> chacui ---chini tanquehue xihuiqui motlatzin >> ximotlali ypan ycpalli --- chitao >> >> xihuiqui motlatzin ximotlali ypan ycpalli (xi-huica >> mo-tlatzin >> xi-motlali y-pan ycpalli: come uncle sit on the >> seat) >> >> I don't know (like Kirchhoff) what to make out of >> "chacui chini >> tanquehue" and the "chitao" at the end. Likewise >> with >> >> chacui qieaha tanquehe >> >> chacui tachi tanquehue >> >> >> Chontana dios chati (dios is easy enough) etc. >> >> I am wondering if these phrases are sounds that >> convey cries for gathering. >> >> I would appreciate any light on these. >> >> Jose Rabasa >> > > > >Discover Yahoo! >Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! >http://discover.yahoo.com/ From institute at CSUMB.EDU Wed May 18 22:06:31 2005 From: institute at CSUMB.EDU (Archaeology Institute) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:06:31 -0700 Subject: Aztec Nahua Gender In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear All, My student, Esmeralda Cruz, is currently conducting a comparative study on Aztec gender roles in both the pre-Columbian and modern periods. My suggestion to her is to look at the work of Timothy Knab on the Sierra de Puebla. Any suggestions for literatures or studies concerning Nahua/Aztec gender roles through time? Thank You, Ruben G. Mendoza, Ph.D., Director Institute for Archaeological Science, Technology and Visualization Social and Behavioral Sciences California State University Monterey Bay 100 Campus Center Seaside, California 93955-8001 Email: archaeology_institute at csumb..edu Voice: 831-582-3760; Fax: 831-582-3566 http://archaeology.csumb.edu; http://archaeology.csumb.edu/wireless/ "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" -Albert Einstein Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message is sender-privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, electronic storage or use of this communication is prohibited. -- This message has been scanned for viruses, worms, and potentially dangerous attachments and is believed to be safe. We do not recommend opening attachments unless you are expecting them. To learn more about virus protection at CSUMB, visit: http://it.csumb.edu/services/virus/ Email Scams & Phishing are on the rise at CSUMB. To learn more about email scams and Phishing, visit: http://it.csumb.edu/news/article.php?id=286 From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Thu May 19 01:01:54 2005 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:01:54 -0400 Subject: Aztec Nahua Gender In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > My suggestion to her is to look at the work of Timothy Knab on the > Sierra de Puebla. My suggestion is to look elsewhere. One place would be the stories of do?a Luz jim?nez, edited by Fernando Horcasitas. One collection is essentially her autobiography, of which there is a Nahuatl/English version published by the U. of Oklahoma Press under the title Life and Death in Milpa Alta. The other collection is Nahuatl/Spanish. Obviously one should look at the multi-authored volume Indian Women of Early Mexico. From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Thu May 19 06:11:56 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 01:11:56 -0500 Subject: Nahuatlahtos are spoiled In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There's a cracker barrel on the campus of Indiana University. Or at least there has been one for the last few years. That's where Michael, Pablo, Bill 'n' me get together for two enjoyable hours some evening every week. We don't look at the calendar to see what the university schedule is -- if everyone is in town and ambulatory, we meet. We read Nahuatl text like the Psalmodia Cristiana and the Florentine Codex (mainly Books 12 and 11), translating and putting the word forms through our language rationalizing machines, taking detours to talk about the treatment of Nahuatl in Andrews' grammar, the activity on Nahuat-l, modern Nahuatl variation, and enlightening things about the Miami language, etc. Last night we talked a bit about the fact that Nahuatlahtos are spoiled. We Nahuatlahtos have the "advantage" of working with a language that (1) is regular in its word grammar, but more importantly, (2) does not muddy up the shape of the morphemes at their boundaries (as many languages) do. We look at a word and it falls apart into its constituent morphemes before our eyes. I say this because most of us look at documents and aren't out there sitting on a log and hearing words fall apart before our ears. We expect regularity. But since we are accustomed to rationalizing some morpheme shapes that do vary with phonetic-based explanations (e.g., quiza vs. quixtia), we panic when faced with variations like cotoni and cotoctli or patlahua and patlactic. People who look at languages like English, French, Spanish, etc., are not so panicked -- they know that they have to carry the tool (or label) of *irregular* in their toolkit. Consider Spanish: hag-o pon-go dig-o hac-e pon-e dic-e hac-emos pon-emos dec-imos hech-o puest-o dich-o When we look at these varying stems, we hardly see the irregularity -- they don't impede our understanding of a discourse because we don't expect to be spoiled by regularity. But, as Michael remarked, Nahuatl is partly to blame -- it lulls us into an expectation of further regularity. SO, naturally I made a list of some of the variation in patientive nouns. My notation should not be misunderstood to imply that a process is involved. ".k>ch" merely means that /k/ occurs in the finite verb forms, but /ch/ occurs in some patientive forms. Obviously, my interest is taxonomic -- aimed at the practical goal of improving the ease of reading. Explanation is either over the horizon or not available. I include a short list of examples here and I will send a larger list in separate e-mails. Saludos, Joe ************************** *.k>ch*** cemmapichtli. hace o haz de cosas menudas. ch>. 55m-10 cemmapichtontli. hacezillo peque?o. ch>. 55m-10 *.n>ch*** cacalachtic. like a pottery rattle. ch>. b.10 f.4 cacalachtli. caxcauel de barro. ch>. 71m2-2 chientlaxcaltotopochtli. toasted chia tortillas. ch>. b.10 f.9 cuauhcacalachtli. pestillo o cerradura de palo. ch>. 55m-16 cuecueyochtli. ?arcillo. ch>. 55m-4 etotopochtli. toasted bean. ch>. b.10 f.4 *.n>k*** acoyoctli. sangradera de agua cogida; socarena del agua. k>. 55m-18 altepetenancoyoctli. portillo de muro. k>. 55m-16 altepetenanxitictli. portillo de muro. k>. 55m-16 cacayactic. sparce. k>. b.10 f.6 cahcayactic. fragmented. k>. b.11 f.25 chachapactic. drooping. k>. b.11 f.21 chapactic. ; drooping; hanging. k>. b.11 f.11 *.n>x*** chilpalaxtli. spoiled chili. x>. b.10 f.4 cuachpalaxtli. spoiled large cotton cape, rotton large cotton cape. x>. b.10 f.4 *.n>z*** yamazpahtic. extremely soft. z>. b.10 f.7 yamaztia. ablandarse alguna cosa. z>. 71m1- 1 yamaztic. soft. z>. b.10 f.6 *.t>ch*** cenmachtli , tla-. something that is completely known. ch>. b.11 f.14 iximach , itla-. his acquaintance. ch>. b.6 f.5 tlalochcuepa =nino. huir atras. ch>. 55m-11 xapochhuia =ninotla. caer en hoyo peque?o. ch>. 71m1-4 xapochtic. agujero. ch>. 71m1-1 *.w>ch*** cuapatlachiuhqui. having a broad head. ch>. b.11 f.7 cuitlapatlachtic. having a broad back; wide-bellied. ch>. b.11 f.10 cuitlapilpatlach. flat-tailed. ch>. b.11 f.7 olpatlachtli. wide piece of rubber. ch>. b.10 f.5 *.w>k*** acanactli. narrow river. k>. b.11 f.24 acapitzac , i-. his reed stalk. k>. b.8 f.2 acapitzactli. carrizo especie de ca?a. k>. 55m-3 alacpatic. very slippery. k>. b.11 f.8 alactic. cosa deleznable, assi como anguilla, pan de xabon mojado, o flema. &c; deleznable cosa como anguilla; xabon mojado; &c. k>. 71m2-1 alactic. smooth, slick. k>. b.11 f.6 catzactic. cosa suzia; suzia cosa; suzio por no estar lauado. k>. 71m2-2 catzactic. dark. k>. b.11 f.21 chicactic. cosa rezia y fuerte, o persona anciana; rezia cosa. k>. 71m2-4 chicactic. robust; strong; sturdy. k>. b.4 f.8 melactic. cosa derecha y luenga. k>. 71m2-9 pochectic. ahumada cosa; ahumada cosa assi. k>. 55m-00 pochectic. blackish; smoky colored; smoky. k>. b.11 f.10 *.w>z*** alaztic. ; deleznable cosa como anguilla; xabon mojado; &c. z>. 71m2-1 alaztic. sleek; slick; smooth. z>. b.11 f.1 melaztic. cosa derecha y luenga. z>. 71m2-10 ayopahuaxtli. cooked gourd. x>. b.10 f.5 cactlaxtli =tla. descalzada persona, o desherrada bestia. x>. 71m2-20 chilpahuaxtli. chili which is cooked in an olla. x>. b.10 f.4 From ced44 at CAM.AC.UK Thu May 19 08:21:24 2005 From: ced44 at CAM.AC.UK (Caroline Dodds) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:21:24 +0100 Subject: Aztec Nahua Gender Message-ID: I am currently converting my doctorate on pre-conquest Aztec gender roles into a book and, if you would like to contact me directly off the list, then I would be happy to try and give advice on specific aspects if your student would find that helpful. I also have a large bibliography on pre-conquest gender which I would be happy to send directly if you would like. (I don't know what level your student is working at.) A few selected studies, however, would be: Anna-Britta Hellbom, La participacion cultural de las mujeres: Indias y Mestizas en el M?xico precortesiano y postrevolucionario (Stockholm, 1967). Cecelia F. Klein (ed.), Gender in Pre-Hispanic America (Dumbarton Oaks, 2001). Sharisse D. McCafferty, and Geoffrey D. McCafferty, 'The Metamorphosis of Xochiquetzal: A Window on Womanhood in Pre- and Post-Conquest Mexico', in T. Sweely (ed)., Manifesting Power: Gender and the Interpretation of Power in Archaeology (London, 1999), pp.103-25. Mar?a J. Rodr?guez-Shadow, La mujer azteca (Toluca, 1991). Alan R. Sandstrom, Corn Is Our Blood: Culture and Ethnic Identity in a Contemporary Aztec Indian Village (Norman, 1991). Susan Schroeder, Stephanie Wood, and Robert Haskett (eds.), Indian Women of Early Mexico: Identity, Ethnicity, and Gender Differentiation (Norman, 1997). Yours, Caroline Dodds ----- Dr. Caroline Dodds Junior Research Fellow Sidney Sussex College Cambridge CB2 3HU Tel: 01223 330867 ced44 at cam.ac.uk From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Thu May 19 16:14:47 2005 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:14:47 -0500 Subject: Aztec Nahua Gender In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 05:06 PM 5/18/2005, you wrote: > My student, Esmeralda Cruz, is currently conducting a comparative > study on Aztec gender roles in both the pre-Columbian and modern > periods. My suggestion to her is to look at the work of Timothy Knab on > the Sierra de Puebla. Any suggestions for >literatures or studies concerning Nahua/Aztec gender roles through time? Susan Kellogg's book _Law and the Transformation of Aztec Culture_ U Oklahoma press, deals quite heavily with women before and after the conquest. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Thu May 19 20:19:40 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:19:40 -0500 Subject: Nahuatlahtos are spoiled list 1 In-Reply-To: <1115939890.4283e4326bb95@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Longer list, part 1 *.k>ch*** cemmapichtli. . ch>. b.11 f.18 cemmapichtli. hace o haz de cosas menudas. ch>. 55m-10 cemmapichtontli. hacezillo peque?o. ch>. 55m-10 *.m>k*** huihuitoctontli. . k>. 71m2-27 huihuitoctontli , ti-. . k>. b.6 f.10 *.n>c*** tepopozoctli. . c>. 71m2-17 tepozoctli. piedra liuiana llena de agujeros peque?os. c>. 71m2-17 *.n>ch*** cacalachtic. like a pottery rattle. ch>. b.10 f.4 cacalachtli. caxcauel de barro. ch>. 71m2-2 chientlaxcaltotopochtli. toasted chia tortillas. ch>. b.10 f.9 cuauhcacalachtli. pestillo o cerradura de palo. ch>. 55m-16 cuecueyochtli. ?arcillo. ch>. 55m-4 etotopochtli. toasted bean. ch>. b.10 f.4 ichtilmacacalachtli. maguey fiber cape which sounds like a pottery rattle. ch>. b.10 f.4 [i]xcaltotopochtli , tla-. biscuit. ch>. b.8 f.4 nacazchichipichtic. having droplet shaped ears. ch>. b.11 f.1 nacazchichipichton. having droplet-shaped ears. ch>. b.11 f.1 nacazchihchipichtic. having droplet-shaped ears. ch>. b.11 f.1 tlecocomochtli. . ch>. b.12 f.5 totopochhuacqui. empedernido assi. ch>. 55m-7 totopochhuaqui. empedernecerse o pararse duro el pan o cosa assi. ch>. 55m-7 totopochtic. empedernido assi. ch>. 55m-7 totopochtli. toasted; toasted tortilla. ch>. b.10 f.4 totopochtzintli. dried tortilla. ch>. b.9 f.2 *.n>k*** acoyoctli. sangradera de agua cogida; socarena del agua. k>. 55m-18 altepetenancoyoctli. portillo de muro. k>. 55m-16 altepetenanxitictli. portillo de muro. k>. 55m-16 altepetepancoyoctli. portillo de muro. k>. 55m-16 atlacoyoctli. sumidero de agua. <--coyo:ni--l2 .n>k>. 71m1-20 atotomoctli. ola o onda de agua. k>. 55m- 15 axittotomoctli. ampolla tal. k>. 71m1-2 ayopipitzictic. . k>. b.11 f.12 cacalachuac , o-. . k>. b.2 f.2 cacayactic. sparce. k>. b.10 f.6 cahcayactic. fragmented. k>. b.11 f.25 calcuitlacoyoctli. postigo puerta tras casa. k>. 55m-16 chachapacaticac. . k>. b.11 f.11 chachapactic. drooping. k>. b.11 f.21 chapactic. ; drooping; hanging. k>. b.11 f.11 chapactontli. ; a little drooping. k>. b.11 f.13 chichipictli. gota de cosa liquida. k>. 71m2-4 chochopoc. . k>. b.10 f.2 chochopoctli. . k>. b.10 f.1 cioyocopictic. descolorido assi. k>. 55m-5 ciyocopictic. blanquezino assi. k>. 55m-2 cocotoctic. cortada cosa, s, no entera; cosa quebrada o despedazada assi. k>. 71m1-5 cocotoctli. cortada cosa, s, no entera; cosa quebrada o despedazada assi. k>. 71m1-5 cohcotoc. . k>. b.10 f.2 cohcoyoctic. having holes. k>. b.10 f.6 cotoc coatl. biuora otra pestilencial y de gran pon?o?a. k>. 71m1-4 cotoctic. cosa que le falta algo o algun pedazo. k>. 71m2-4 cotoctli. mendrugo. k>. 55m-13 cotoctontli =tla. parte peque?a. k>. 71m1-16 coyocco , itla-. its hole. k>. b.5 f.3 coyocco , tla-. in a hole; in holes; in burrows. k>. b.11 f.2 coyocpol. perforated. k>. b.11 f.25 coyoctempan , itla-. . k>. b.6 f.19 coyoctic. aguiero, o cosa agujerada o horadada; agujero. k>. 71m1-1 coyoctlaminaloyan =tla. saetera o tronera. k>. 71m1-19 coyoctlequiquiztlaxoyan =tla. saetera o tronera. k>. 71m1-19 coyoctli , tla-. hole. k>. b.11 f.26 coyoctli =tla. aguiero, o cosa agujerada o horadada; agujero; agujero o almario; o alhacena; o horado; sumidero; o almario; hoyo o hoya; sumidero de agua. k>. 71m1-1 coyoctontli =tla. agujero peque?o; hoyuelo hoyo peque?o. k>. 71m2-20 coyoctontli. small hole. k>. b.10 f.7 cuacacayactli. cabezpelado. k>. 71m1-4 cuanmoloctli. eagle down. k>. b.2 f.4 cuanmolocyo. having eagle down. k>. b.2 f.4 cuatepitzic. having a broken head. k>. b.4 f.9 cuatexamac. having a broken head. k>. b.4 f.9 cuatotomoctli. head scabies. k>. b.10 f.8 cuauhcocotoctli. pedazos de madera. k>. 71m2-15 cuauhcoyoctli. agujero hecho en madero. k>. 71m1-1 cuecueyoctli. ?arcillo delas orejas. k>. 71m2- 5 cuexcochcoyoc. . k>. b.10 f.1 huexochachapactli. mata grande de mimbrera. k>. 71m2-27 huexochapactli. mata grande de mimbrera. k>. 71m2-27 huihuiyocpol. quivering person. k>. b.11 f.21 huiyoctic. quivering. k>. b.10 f.7 ihtipepeyocyo. . k>. b.9 f.4 ipotocquiza. vaprosa cosa que echa baho o vapor. k>. 71m1-20 ipotocyo. vaprosa cosa que echa baho o vapor. k>. 71m1-20 itipepeyocyo. . k>. b.9 f.5 ixcalcotoctli =tla. ?atico o peda?o de pan. k>. 71m1-6 ixcallapactli =tla. mendrugo; ?atico o peda?o de pan. k>. 71m1-15 ixcocoyoc. el que tiene muy hundidas las cuencas delos ojos. k>. 71m2-8 ixcuepoctic. tuerto de vn ojo. k>. 71m2-8 ixpeyoctli. flutter of an eyelid. k>. b.12 f.2 ixtecocoyoctli. la cuenca del ojo muy hundida. k>. 71m2-8 ixyoyomocpol. cara alegre del que esta regozijado; hombre de cara alegre y muy regozijada. k>. 71m1-4 ixyoyomoctiliztli. gesto desta manera. k>. 55m-10 ixyoyomoctiliztli ==onixyoyomon sic. gestos o visajes. k>. 71m2-8 macacapactli. casta?etas. k>. 71m1-5 macapactli. casta?eta. k>. 71m1-5 macotoctic. manco que tiene cortada la mano. k>. 71m1-14 macpalcocoyoc. . k>. b.10 f.3 macpalcocoyocpol. . k>. b.10 f.3 metzcotoctic. coxo de pierna quebrada. k>. 71m1-6 moloctic. lana mollida o cosa semejante. k>. 71m2- 10 momolochuia =nitla=onitlamomolochui. menear, o enturbiar el agua o cosa semejante. k>. 71m2-10 palaxyoyopehui. el que tiene postillas de sarna. k>. 71m2-13 palaxyoyopehuiliztli. postilla de sarna. k>. 71m2-13 pepeyoctli. estampas. k>. 71m1-11 pepeyocyo. . k>. b.9 f.3 pepeyocyo , i-. . k>. b.8 f.5 pitzcoyoctic. estrecha cosa como agujero. <--coyo:ni-l2-tic .n>k>. 55m-9 pochictic. fofa cosa. k>. 55m-10 pochictic tilmatli. vestidura vellosa. k>. 55m-19 popozoctli. irritable. k>. b.10 f.3 quechcotoctic. . k>. b.5 f.1 tapalcacopichtlapactli. tejuela peda?o de teja. k>. 55m-19 tetlapactli. pedazo de losa o de piedra. k>. 71m2-18 texaxamactli. caxcajo, o cosa semejante. k>. 71m2-19 tezoloctli. . k>. b.11 f.3 tilictic. cosa tesa y panda. k>. 71m2-19 tlacoyoctlaminaloyan. saetero o tronera. k>. 55m-18 tlacoyoctlequiquiztlaxoyan. saetero o tronera. k>. 55m-18 tlalpotoctli. baho dela tierra. k>. 71m2-21 tlancacayactic. helgado de dientes. k>. 71m2-22 tlancayactli. manta rala y no tupida. k>. 71m2-22 tlancopictic. mellado en los dientes. k>. 55m-13 tlancotoctic. desdentado de algun diente; mellado en los dientes. k>. 55m-5 tlancotoctic. toothless. k>. b.5 f.3 tlapactli. mendrugo. k>. 55m-13 tlatolchochopoc. incoherent. k>. b.10 f.2 tlatolchochopoctli. habla, o platica desbaratada y sin orden ni concierto. k>. 71m2-24 tlatolchohchopoc. . k>. b.10 f.1 tlaxcalcotoctli. ?atico de pan. k>. 55m-4 tlaxcallapactli. mendrugo; ?atico de pan. k>. 55m-13 tlaxcalyamactli. mollete pan muelle. k>. 55m-14 tlaxcalyamactli [scribal error: ??error: in 1880: tlaxcalyamacti for tlaxcalyamactli: 71m1]. mollete pan muelle. k>. 71m1-15 tlecocomoctli. hoguera llamas de huego. k>. 55m-11 tlecomoctli. llama de fuego. k>. 71m1-14 tlequiquiztlacoyoctli. tronera. k>. 71m1-20 tlilchapactli. borron que cae enla escriptura. k>. 55m-2 tomapitzictli. bruised tomato. k>. b.10 f.4 tzatzayactic. resquebrajado. k>. 55m-17 tzatzayactic. serrated. k>. b.11 f.19 tzicuicpatic. exceedingly agile. k>. b.11 f.2 tzicuictic. diligentissimo y presto en lo que haze. k>. 71m1-8 tzicuictic , ti-. you are swift. k>. b.6 f.10 tzicuictic. active; agile; bouncy; fleet. k>. b.11 f.11 tzicuictictiez , ti-. . k>. b.6 f.10 tzicuictontli. active and small. k>. b.11 f.11 tzilictic. claro en sonido. k>. 55m-3 tzitzicuictic. desembuelto assi; diligentissimo y presto en lo que haze. k>. 55m-5 tzitzilictic. . k>. b.10 f.5 tzomocchihua =nitla. esfor?arse para algo. k>. 71m1-11 tzomocchihua =nitla=onitlatzomocchiuh. hazer algo con mucho trabajo sacando fuerzas de flaqueza. k>. 71m2-26 tzomocoa , mo-. he works energetically, he applies effort. k>. b.10 f.1 tzomocoa =nino. esfor?arse para algo. k>. 55m-9 tzomocoani , mo-. one who is active, one who makes an effort. k>. b.10 f.1 tzomocoani =mo. esfor?ado assi. k>. 55m-9 tzomocoliztli =ne. el acto de forcejar reziamente; esfuer?o en esta manera. k>. 71m2-12 tzomocquiza =ni. caminar con peligro o temor. k>. 55m-2 tzomocquiza =ni=onitzomoquiz. escaparse con mucho trabajo y peligro, delos lugares donde andan salteadores. o cosarios. k>. 71m2-26 tzomoctic. . k>. b.10 f.1 tzomoctic. cosa rota y rasgada, o persona solicita y diligente, rezia y fuerte. k>. 71m2-26 tzomocyeyecoa =nitla. esfor?arse para algo. k>. 71m1-11 tzomocyeyecoa =nitla=onitlatzomocyeyeco. esforzarse aprouar si podraconel trabajo de alguna obra. k>. 71m2-26 tzotlactic. glistening. k>. b.11 f.7 tzotlactontli. glistening and small. k>. b.11 f.8 tzotzotlactic. . k>. b.11 f.19 yacacotoctic. desnarigado. k>. 55m-5 yacacotoctiliztli. act of cutting off a nose. k>. b.10 f.8 yacacotocyotl. . k>. b.10 f.8 yacahuiyocpol. having a quivering nose. k>. b.11 f.21 yamactic. cosa blanda, y muelle. k>. 71m2-5 yamactontli. cosa blandilla assi; muella cosa vn poco. k>. 71m2-5 yolpopozoctic. excitable. k>. b.10 f.3 yoyomoctli huel, toyoyomoc. los ri?ones. k>. 71m2- 7 zoloctic. . k>. b.11 f.3 zozolocchiuhqui. flautero que las haze. k>. 55m-9 zozolocpitzqui. flautero el que las ta?e. k>. 55m-9 zozoloctli. flauta. k>. 55m-9 *.n>x*** chilpalaxtli. spoiled chili. x>. b.10 f.4 cuachpalaxtli. spoiled large cotton cape, rotton large cotton cape. x>. b.10 f.4 cualaxtli. coraje. x>. 55m-3 epalaxtli. spoiled bean, rotten bean. x>. b.10 f.4 huauhpalaxtli. spoiled amaranth seed. x>. b.10 f.4 huiteccapalaxtli =te. llaga de herida de espada o de palo. x>. 71m1-14 ihhuipalaxtli. damaged feather. x>. b.10 f.4 o[ya]lpalaxtli , tla-. spoiled maize; spoiled maize grain. x>. b.10 f.4 palaxtli. abscesses; abscess; suppuration. x>. b.11 f.15 palaxyopehuiliztli. postilla de sarna. x>. 55m-16 papayaxihui , tla-. it goes breaking up. x>. b.11 f.26 papayaxoani , tla-. he customarily breaks something into pieces. x>. b.10 f.2 papayaxolli , tla-. something broken up. x>. b.10 f.4 papayaxoloni , tla-. pulverizer. x>. b.10 f.6 papayaxtic. broken up; broken; coarsely ground. x>. b.11 f.24 papayaxtli. broken. x>. b.10 f.4 timallo palaxtli. llaga con materia. x>. 71m1-14 tomapalaxtli. spoiled tomato. x>. b.10 f.4 *.n>z*** yamazpahtic. extremely soft. z>. b.10 f.7 yamazpatic. very soft. z>. b.10 f.6 yamaztia. ablandarse alguna cosa. z>. 71m1- 1 yamaztia =ni=oniyamaxtiz. ablandarse. z>. 71m2-5 yamaztic. ; muelle cosa blanda. z>. 71m2-5 yamaztic =achi. muella cosa vn poco. z>. 55m- 14 yamaztic. soft. z>. b.10 f.6 yamaztiliztli. ; blandura assi. z>. 71m2-5 yamaztontli. muella cosa vn poco. z>. 55m-14 yayamaztic. blanda cosa; cosa blanda y muelle. z>. 71m1-4 yayamaztic. very soft. z>. b.10 f.6 *.t>ch*** amoxtlatlamachilli. libro illuminado. ch>. 71m2-1 amoxtlatlatlamachilli. libro illuminado. ch>. 71m2-1 atla atlamachtilli. afligido y perseguido de otros. <--ah1-p51-mati- l2-v04-caus08=0-l1 .t>ch>. 71m2-2 atlamachtiani =ate. afligidor. ch>. 71m2-2 atlamachtiliztli =ate. aflicion o afligimiento tal; aflicion. ch>. 55m-00 atlamachtiliztli =te. aflicion o afligimiento; aflicion tal. ch>. 71m1-1 cenmachtli , tla-. something that is completely known. ch>. b.11 f.14 centlamachtia =nic=oniccentlamachti. gozar, o fruir de algo. ch>. 71m2-3 centlamachtia =nite=onitecentlamachti. glorificar, o enriquecer a otro. ch>. 71m2-3 centlamachtiani =te. glorificador, o enriquecedor. ch>. 71m2-16 centlamachtiliztli =ne. bienauenturan?a; . ch>. 55m-2 centlamachtiliztli =te. glorificacion assi. ch>. 71m2-16 centlamachtiloya =ne. bienauenturan?a lugar de gloria. ch>. 55m-2 centlamachtiloyan =ne. lugar de entera bienauenturanza. ch>. 71m2-11 huelmach , i-. her pleasure. ch>. b.4 f.11 ilochtia =ninotetla. correr hazer a otro. ch>. 71m1-5 iximach , itla-. his acquaintance. ch>. b.6 f.5 iximach , motla-. your acquaintance. ch>. b.6 f.1 iximachhuan , itla-. his acquaintances. ch>. b.3 f.4 iximachhuan , motla-. your acquaintances. ch>. b.6 f.4 machtli , ne-. . ch>. b.3 f.1 machtli , te-. counselor. ch>. b.10 f.2 temmachia =nitla=onitlatemmachi. esperar algo, o tener confianza de alcanzar algun beneficio, o de ser fauorecido de alguna parte. ch>. 71m2-16 tentlamachia =nite. burlar de palabras. ch>. 55m-2 tentlamachiani =te. burlador assi. ch>. 55m-2 tentlamachiliztica =te. burlando desta manera. ch>. 55m-2 tentlamachitoa =nitla. burlando dezir algo. ch>. 55m-2 tentlamachtli. burla tal. ch>. 55m-2 tlalochcuepa =nino. huir atras. ch>. 55m-11 tlalochnamiqui =cahuallopan nite. iustar. ch>. 55m-11 tlalochnamiquiliztli =cahuallopan ne. iusta assi. ch>. 55m-11 tlamachtia =nino. abundadar en riquezas. ch>. 55m-00 tlamachtiani =mo. abundoso assi. ch>. 55m-00 *.tl>ch*** tlaxapochhui =mo. caydo assi. ch>. 55m-2 tlaxapochhuiliztli =ne. cayda en hoyo peque?o. ch>. 55m-2 xapochhui =motla. caydo assi. ch>. 71m1-4 xapochhuia =ninotla [scribal error: +mis-analysis: 55m]. caer en hoyo peque?o. ch>. 55m-2 xapochhuia =ninotla. caer en hoyo peque?o. ch>. 71m1-4 xapochhuia =ninotla=oninotlaxapochhui. caer en hoyo. o abarrancarse. ch>. 71m2-25 xapochhuia =nitetla=onitetlaxapochhui. hazer caer a otro en hoyo. ch>. 71m2-25 xapochhuiliztli =netla. cayda en hoyo peque?o. ch>. 71m1-4 xapochtic. agujero. ch>. 71m1-1 xapochtli , tla-. hole. ch>. b.11 f.1 xapochtli =tla. hoyo. ch>. 71m2-25 xapochtontli =tla. hoyo peque?o. ch>. 71m2- 25 *.w>ch*** amapatlachtli. crushed paper. ch>. b.9 f.5 cuapatlachiuhqui. having a broad head. ch>. b.11 f.7 cuapatlachpil. . ch>. b.11 f.9 cuapatlachtic. ; having a broad head; having a wide head. ch>. b.8 f.3 cuappatlachtli. . ch>. b.10 f.4 cuatepatlachtic. having a broad head. ch>. b.11 f.9 cuitlapatlachtic. having a broad back; wide-bellied. ch>. b.11 f.10 cuitlapilpatlach. flat-tailed. ch>. b.11 f.7 cuitlapilpatlachtic. wide-tailed. ch>. b.11 f.7 oholpatlachehua. . ch>. b.10 f.1 olpatlachtli. wide piece of rubber. ch>. b.10 f.5 oolpatlachehua. . ch>. b.10 f.1 otlachiquippatlachtli. . ch>. b.10 f.5 o[ya]lpatlachtli , tla-. wide maize. ch>. b.2 f.2 papatlachtic. very flat; very wide. ch>. b.11 f.4 patlachihui. it becomes flat; it becomes wide; it becomes broad; it broadens; it widens. ch>. b.11 f.22 patlachilpitica. . ch>. b.6 f.18 patlachiuhqui. wide. ch>. b.10 f.7 patlachpil. . ch>. b.11 f.9 patlachpipil. ; small and wide. ch>. b.11 f.4 patlachteca , nic-. I dress it wide, I hew it wide; I trim it wide. ch>. b.11 f.12 patlachtic. ancha cosa, assi como tabla, camino,estera, lien?o o cosas semejantes. ch>. 71m1-2 patlachtic. broad, wide; flat. ch>. b.11 f.4 patlachtilahuac. broad and thick; long and thick. ch>. b.10 f.6 patlachtontli. flat and small; small and flat; wide and small. ch>. b.11 f.9 patlachtotonti. broad and small. ch>. b.11 f.17 patlachxima , nic-. I cut it wide; I trim it wide. ch>. b.11 f.12 tamalpatlachtli. wide tamale. ch>. b.10 f.4 tlanitzpatlach. wide shank. ch>. b.10 f.7 tlanitzpatlachihui. shank becomes wide. ch>. b.10 f.7 tlanitzpatlachiuhca , to-. width of our shank; our wide shank. ch>. b.10 f.8 tlanitzpatlachiuhya , to-. wide place of our shank. ch>. b.10 f.8 xahcalpatlachtli. wide hut. ch>. b.11 From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Thu May 19 20:34:58 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 22:34:58 +0200 Subject: Aztec Nahua Gender In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050519111212.049e3f20@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Codex Mendoza has a bit about gender roles. A lot of other literature refers to this Codex when describing Aztec family life, so why not go directly to the original? Rikke Marie Olsen Student at the Department of Native American Language and Culture Studies University of Copenhagen Denmark -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of John F. Schwaller Sent: 19. maj 2005 18:15 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Aztec Nahua Gender At 05:06 PM 5/18/2005, you wrote: > My student, Esmeralda Cruz, is currently conducting a comparative > study on Aztec gender roles in both the pre-Columbian and modern > periods. My suggestion to her is to look at the work of Timothy Knab on > the Sierra de Puebla. Any suggestions for >literatures or studies concerning Nahua/Aztec gender roles through time? Susan Kellogg's book _Law and the Transformation of Aztec Culture_ U Oklahoma press, deals quite heavily with women before and after the conquest. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Fri May 20 03:30:03 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 22:30:03 -0500 Subject: Nahuatlahtos are spoiled list 2 In-Reply-To: <1116533980.428cf4dc9db1a@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Longer list, part 2 *.w>k*** aalacatoc. it lies slippery. k>. b.12 f.4 acacaxactic. ralo,lo texido. <--dupl-caxa:hua-l2-tic .w>k>. 71m1-18 acanactli. narrow river. k>. b.11 f.24 acapitzac , i-. his reed stalk. k>. b.8 f.2 acapitzactla. carrizal. k>. 55m-3 acapitzactli. carrizo especie de ca?a. k>. 55m-3 acapitzactli. long reed. k>. b.2 f.9 achachayactli. pouring vessel. k>. b.10 f.5 achichiacpan. manantial de aguas, o fuentes. k>. 71m2-1 achichiacpan. spring. k>. b.11 f.24 achichiactli. manadero o manantial; manantial de aguas; o fuentes. k>. 71m1-14 ahhuachpitzactli. thin drizzle. k>. b.7 f.2 alacpatic. very slippery. k>. b.11 f.8 alactic. cosa deleznable, assi como anguilla, pan de xabon mojado, o flema. &c; deleznable cosa como anguilla; xabon mojado; &c. k>. 71m2-1 alactic. smooth, slick. k>. b.11 f.6 alactix , o-. it became slimy. k>. b.4 f.12 alactontli. slippery and small. k>. b.11 f.8 amatlapalalactic. having smooth wings. k>. b.11 f.5 amatlapalpatlactotonti. small, broad leaves. k>. b.11 f.17 apampitzactli. surco para sacar el agua. k>. 55m-18 apatlactempilolli. lip pendant which is shaped like a broad-leafed water plant. k>. b.8 f.2 apatlactli. . k>. b.2 f.5 apitzactli. stream; thin stream of water. k>. b.11 f.24 apitzactotonti. little streams. k>. b.11 f.24 atoyapitzactli. riatillo peque?o rio. k>. 55m-17 atoyapitzactontli. rio peque?o. k>. 55m-17 ayatotomactli. coarse maguey fiber cape of thick weave. k>. b.10 f.4 ayel cuitlazotlac. floxo por negligencia. k>. 71m1-11 aztapatlactontli. . k>. b.2 f.2 cacamac. abuhado assi. k>. 55m-00 cacamactic. abuhado assi. k>. 55m-00 cacanactic. thin overall. k>. b.10 f.5 cacatzac. hombre negro, o negra. k>. 71m2- 2 cacatzactic. black. k>. b.10 f.6 cacatzactli. hombre negro, o negra. k>. 71m2- 2 cacatzactli. black. k>. b.6 f.19 cacaxactic. manta rala y mal texida, o cosa semejante, o cosa floxa y mal atada. k>. 71m2-2 calchichicactli. sturdy house. k>. b.11 f.26 calmelactic. like a long room. k>. b.11 f.26 calmelactli. corredor de casa; sala grande y prolongada; o corredor dela casa; sala larga. k>. 55m-3 calnepanol melactli. sala alta y larga. k>. 71m2-2 calnepanolmelactli. sala alta. k>. 55m-18 camactic. cosa tierna y reziente, como la mazorca de mayz antes que este del todo sazonada y seca. &c. k>. 71m2-2 camilectic. amarilla fruta; morena cosa ba?a. k>. 55m-00 campopozactic. carrilludo. k>. 55m-3 canacpil. little and thin. k>. b.11 f.12 canactic. cosa delgada, como tabla, estera. lienzo, o cosas semejantes llanas. k>. 71m2-2 canactontli. . k>. b.11 f.18 canactontli. cosa delgadilla assi. k>. 71m2-2 canactontli. small and thin. k>. b.11 f.12 canactotonti. small and thin. k>. b.11 f.15 canaczolli. something which is burnished. k>. b.10 f.4 canauhtempatlactli. wide bill of a duck. k>. b.11 f.6 castillan tlaxcalzonectli. mollete pan muelle. k>. 55m-14 catzacpol. dirty. k>. b.11 f.8 catzactia =ni. ensuziarse. k>. 55m-8 catzactia =ni=onicatzactiac. huel. onicatzactix. pararse suzio. k>. 71m2-2 catzactic. cosa suzia; suzia cosa; suzio por no estar lauado. k>. 71m2-2 catzactic. dark. k>. b.11 f.21 catzactic. suzio por no estar lauado. k>. 71m1- 20 catzactilia =nitla. ensuziar algo. k>. 55m-8 catzactilia =nitla=onitlacatzactili. ensuziar algo. k>. 71m2-2 catzactililli =tla. ensuziada cosa. k>. 55m-8 catzactiliztli. suziedad. k>. 55m-19 catzactix. it got dirty. k>. b.12 f.8 catzactontli. blackish. k>. b.11 f.8 cayacton. . k>. b.11 f.20 cecepoctic. adormecido miembro; cosa adormecida o entomecida. k>. 71m1-1 cepoctic. adormecido miembro. k>. 71m1-1 cepoctli. persona entomecida, o tollida. k>. 71m2-3 chachayactic. spreading. k>. b.11 f.11 chamactic. basta lana. k>. 71m1-3 chamactic. coarse. k>. b.11 f.19 chapactontli. scattered. k>. b.11 f.19 chiacpahtic. very oily, very greasy. k>. b.10 f.6 chiactic. oily; greasy. k>. b.10 f.6 chicacpatic. very strong. k>. b.11 f.12 chicactic. cosa rezia y fuerte, o persona anciana; rezia cosa. k>. 71m2-4 chicactic. robust; strong; sturdy. k>. b.4 f.8 chicactontli. a little rigid. k>. b.11 f.10 chicactotonti. a little strong. k>. b.3 f.4 chicactzintli. a little sturdy. k>. b.11 f.26 chichicactic. strong. k>. b.2 f.7 chichipaccaltique. . k>. b.6 f.10 chichipactique. . k>. b.6 f.10 chihua zonectic =ilhuicaapan mo. esponja dela mar. k>. 55m-9 chipaccaltic [scribal error: ??chipaccoltic for chipaccaltic: 55m]. limpia cosa. k>. 55m-12 chipaccaltic. limpia cosa. k>. 71m1-14 chipaccaltic. very clean; very clear. k>. b.10 f.4 chipacpahtic. very clean. k>. b.10 f.4 chipacpatic. exceedingly clear; very clear. k>. b.11 f.22 chipacpol. clear. k>. b.12 f.6 chipactic. limpia cosa. k>. 55m-12 chipactic. clean; clear. k>. b.10 f.1 chiyactic. cundida mancha. k>. 71m1-6 cinmelactli. straight ear of dried maize. k>. b.11 f.27 cocoyactic. wide. k>. b.6 f.10 cone alacton. ni?o delicado muy tierno, o ni?a. k>. 71m2-4 cuacuauhtiticectic. . k>. b.11 f.2 cuahcuauhtilactla. place of thick forest. k>. b.11 f.11 cuapatlach. cabe?udo de cabe?a ancha. k>. 55m-2 cuapatlactotonti. wide at the tip. k>. b.11 f.15 cuapatlacyo. . k>. b.8 f.2 cuappatlacyo. . k>. b.8 f.2 cuappitzactli. palo delgado. k>. 71m2-14 cuatilacpol. thick-headed. k>. b.10 f.11 cuauhpitzactli. palo o vara delgada. k>. 71m2-15 cuauhtilac. very thick. k>. b.10 f.6 cuauhtilacpatic. very tightly woven. k>. b.10 f.4 cuauhtilactic. ; espessa cosa assi. k>. 71m2-15 cuauhtilactic. tightly woven. k>. b.10 f.4 cuautilactla. place of thick forest. k>. b.11 f.11 cuechactic. cosa humida, o mojada. k>. 71m2-5 cuecueyactic. spread out, radiating. k>. b.11 f.20 cuexpalchicacpol. big tuft of hair over the back of the head; long tuft of hair on the back of the head. k>. b.8 f.5 cuichectic. cosa vn poco negra o ahumada; negro vn poco. k>. 71m2-5 cuichectic. blackish, sooty; dark colored; darkened. k>. b.11 f.2 cuitlapilpopoyactic. having a dark tail. k>. b.11 f.2 cuitlapilpoyactontli. having a somewhat dark tail. k>. b.11 f.2 cuitlatomacpol. fat-backed. k>. b.11 f.7 cuitlatomactic. broad-backed, having a broad back; thick-bodied; having a thick body; thick-bellied. k>. b.11 f.2 cuitlatomactontli. ; small; thick back. k>. b.11 f.10 cuitlaxcolpitzactli. . k>. b.6 f.1 cuitlaxcolpitzactli. tripas delgadas. k>. 55m-19 cuitlaxcolpitzactli. empty gutted; thin intestines. k>. b.6 f.17 cuitlaxcoltomactli. tripas gordas. k>. 71m2-5 cuitlazotlac. floxo por negligencia. k>. 55m-10 cuitlazotlac. indolent; lazy. k>. b.4 f.9 cuitlazozotlac. indolent. k>. b.10 f.1 ecapeyactli. ayere delgado fresco, y manso. k>. 71m2-5 ecapitzactli. ayre delgado. k>. 55m-00 eecapeyactli. ayre delgado; ayre delgado y sotil. k>. 55m-00 ehcapitzactli. narrow current of air. k>. b.11 f.9 ehecapeyactli. ayre delgado. k>. 71m1-1 epitzactli. . k>. b.10 f.4 ezcocopitzactli. vena sotil de sangre. k>. 55m-19 huapacpahtic. exceedingly firm. k>. b.10 f.8 huapactia. empedernecerse o pararse duro el pan o cosa assi. k>. 55m-7 huapactic. . k>. b.11 f.17 huapactic. aspera cosa; aspera cosa como vestidura; empedernido assi; enertado assi. k>. 71m1-3 huapactic. firm, stiff; rough. k>. b.10 f.8 huapactiliztli. aspereza assi. k>. 55m-1 huapactontli. hard, firm. k>. b.11 f.10 hueltilactic. espessa cosa assi. k>. 71m1- 11 huetzquiztomac. risue?o. k>. 55m-17 huitzectli =tla. . k>. 71m2-25 icniiuhmoyactli. . k>. b.6 f.18 icnimmoyactli. withdrawal of friends. k>. b.4 f.2 icniuhmoyactli. . k>. b.6 f.18 icnopiltotomactli. yngratissimo. k>. 71m1-13 itzpatlactli. ; broad piece of obsidian. k>. b.9 f.5 itzpatlacyo. . k>. b.12 f.4 itztilactli. broad obsidian blade. k>. b.10 f.11 ixchicactic. firm. k>. b.11 f.23 ixcuatolpopozactic. . k>. b.11 f.6 ixcuichectic. ashen; smoky-colored. k>. b.11 f.3 ixmelactique. long-faced [pl.]. k>. b.10 f.11 ixmemelactic. . k>. b.11 f.21 ixpatzac. tuerto de vn ojo. k>. 55m-19 ixpatzactic. tuerto de vn ojo. k>. 55m-19 ixticectic. descolorido assi; desflauada cosa. k>. 55m-5 ixtlatlactia =n. colorado tener el rostro deverguen?a. k>. 71m1-5 ixtlatlactic. ruddyish. k>. b.11 f.23 ixtlatlactilia =nin. colorado tener el rostro de verguen?a; colorado tener el rostro deverguen?a; correrse de algo. k>. 55m-3 ixtlatlactiliani =mo. corrido assi. k>. 55m-3 ixtlatlactiliztli [scribal error: ??error: ixtlatlactliztli for ixtlatlactiliztli; m1 has yxtlatlactiliztli: 55m]. corrimiento tal. k>. 55m-4 ixtlatlactiliztli. corrimiento tal. k>. 71m1-5 ixtotomac. atochado. k>. 71m1-3 ixtotomac , t-. you are a fool; you are shameless. k>. b.6 f.10 ixtotomac. foolish person; foolish. k>. b.10 f.1 iztacanactli. thin bar of salt. k>. b.10 f.5 iztalectic. amarillo assi; blanquezino assi; demudado assi; descolorido assi. k>. 55m-00 iztalectic. pale; yellow. k>. b.10 f.5 iztalectiliztli. blancura tal. k>. 55m-2 mapatlactoton. having broad leaves. k>. b.11 f.15 mapatlactotonti. having small wide branches. k>. b.11 f.15 mapiltotomactic. fat-fingered, having fat fingers. k>. b.2 f.2 matilacpil. having small thick leaves. k>. b.11 f.21 matilactic. having thick leaves. k>. b.11 f.21 matitilactic. . k>. b.11 f.13 matitilacton. . k>. b.11 f.13 matohtomactic. having thick paws. k>. b.11 f.1 mauhcazonec. couarde. k>. 71m1-6 mauhcazonec =ni. couarde ser. k>. 71m1-6 mazozotlac. floxo por negligencia. k>. 55m-10 mazozotlacyotl. floxedad assi o negligencia. k>. 55m-10 melacpatic. very long. k>. b.11 f.26 melacpil. rather long. k>. b.11 f.1 melacpol. long, straight. k>. b.11 f.9 melacteca =nino. estenderme en largo. k>. 55m-9 melacteca =nino=oninomelactecac. tenderse, o echarse enel suelo. k>. 71m2-9 melactic. cosa derecha y luenga. k>. 71m2-9 melactic. long; long and straight; straight. k>. b.11 f.26 melactiticac. long, straight. k>. b.11 f.26 melactontli. . k>. b.11 f.7 melactotonti. . k>. b.5 f.3 memelacpil. . k>. b.11 f.21 memelactic. ; cord-like; long; straight; slender; straight and long. k>. b.11 f.20 mixcanactli. nuues ralas. k>. 71m1-16 mixpoyactli. nuues ralas. k>. 71m1-16 momoyactic. separated, outspread; spread out; radiating. k>. b.11 f.20 moyactic. cundida mancha. k>. 71m1-6 nacazpapatlactic. having wide ears. k>. b.11 f.2 nacazpatlac. orejudo. k>. 55m-15 nacazpatlactic. wide-eared, having wide ears. k>. b.2 f.2 nexectic. pardo color. k>. 71m1-16 nexectontli. rather ashen. k>. b.11 f.10 nexehuacaticectic. light ashen in color. k>. b.11 f.5 ohpitzacquetza , n-. I follow the trail. k>. b.11 f.26 ohpitzactli. trail, path; narrow road. k>. b.11 f.26 opitzacochpana , n-. I sweep the trail. k>. b.11 f.26 opitzactli. senda o sendero; vereda o senda; vereta o renta. k>. 55m-18 opitzactli. narrow road; trail. k>. b.12 f.6 otlapitzactli. long stout cane. k>. b.2 f.9 palpoyactic =tla. rosado color de rosas. k>. 55m-17 paltepitzactli , tla-. red and slender. k>. b.6 f.19 papalactotonti. wide and small. k>. b.11 f.16 papatlactic. broad, wide; widely spaced. k>. b.11 f.21 papatlactotonti. wide and small. k>. b.11 f.4 patlactic. broad; wide. k>. b.3 f.3 patlactontli. ; small and wide; wide and small. k>. b.11 f.2 patlactotonti. ; rather wide and small; somewhat small and wide. k>. b.11 f.15 patzachuacqui. . k>. b.10 f.4 patzachuacqui. a?ublado pan; a?ublado trigo; mayz ocosa semejante. k>. 55m-1 patzachuaqui. a?ublarse assi; a?ublarse el trigo; &c. k>. 55m-1 patzactic. a?ublado pan; a?ublado trigo; mayz ocosa semejante; elado trigo o mayz. k>. 55m-1 patzactic. blighted; smutty. k>. b.10 f.4 patzactzintli. . k>. b.4 f.1 patzactzintli , ni-. . k>. b.6 f.18 peyactic. corriente de tejado o cosa semejante. k>. 71m2-14 pinectic. descolorido assi. k>. 55m-5 pinectic. pale. k>. b.10 f.6 pinectontli , ti-. you are pale. k>. b.6 f.10 pitzactic. cosa delgada y larga, assi comovara, soga o cosas semejantes; delgado assi. k>. 71m2-14 pitzactic. slender. k>. b.11 f.26 pitzactli. cosa delgada y larga, assi comovara, soga o cosas semejantes. k>. 71m2-14 pitzactontli. small and narrow. k>. b.11 f.26 pochectia =ni. ahumar se desta manera; ahumarse. k>. 71m1-1 pochectic. ahumada cosa; ahumada cosa assi. k>. 55m-00 pochectic. blackish; smoky colored; smoky. k>. b.11 f.10 pochectilia =nitla. ahumar algo; assi como pared o manta &c. k>. 55m-00 pochectique. smoky [pl.]. k>. b.11 f.6 pochectontli. rather dark, a little dark; rather smoky colored. k>. b.11 f.10 popoxactic. . k>. b.10 f.5 popoyacpil. dark. k>. b.11 f.2 popoyactic. dark. k>. b.11 f.2 popozactic. hinchada cosa, o llena de tolondrones. k>. 71m2-14 poxacpatic. very spongy. k>. b.11 f.27 poxactia. it is spongy. k>. b.11 f.27 poxactic. . k>. b.10 f.5 poxactic. cosa fofa, o esponjada, o tela rala y floxamente texida; esponjosa cosa; fofa cosa. k>. 71m2-14 poxactic ichcatilmatli. picote o sayal. k>. 55m-16 poxactic. soft; spongy. k>. b.11 f.27 poyactic. dark. k>. b.11 f.2 poyactic mixtli. nuues ralas. k>. 71m1-16 poyactontli. a little dark; rather dark. k>. b.11 f.2 pozactic. cosa hinchada assi. k>. 71m2-14 quetzalpatzactli. ; quetzal feather crest device. k>. b.8 f.2 tanamelactli. straight basket. k>. b.10 f.5 tealacyo. having slippery rocks. k>. b.11 f.24 tempatlac , i-. its wide bill. k>. b.11 f.6 tempatlactic. broad-billed. k>. b.11 f.3 tempatlactli. wide bill. k>. b.11 f.6 tencuichectic. having dark edges. k>. b.11 f.5 tentomactli. hocico como de puerco. k>. 55m- 11 tentomactontli. hocico peque?o. k>. 55m-11 tenxipaltotomacpol. thick-lipped person. k>. b.11 f.22 teocacatzacti. dirty gods. k>. b.12 f.2 tepampitzactli. pared delgada y estrecha, o tabique; tabique pared. k>. 71m2-17 tepapatlacmantli =tla. suelo de losas. k>. 55m-18 tepatlacpan. on a broad stone. k>. b.6 f.19 tepatlactli. losa o piedra ancha y llana. k>. 71m2-17 tepatlactli. broad stone. k>. b.6 f.19 tepitzacnechicoa , ni-. I gather tiny stones. k>. b.11 f.25 tepitzactli. tiny stone. k>. b.11 f.25 tepitztlacuactic. dura cosa generalmente. k>. 55m-6 tepitztlacuactilia =nitla. endurecer algo. k>. 71m1-10 tepitztlacuactiliztli. dureza assi; dureza tal. k>. 55m-6 tepoxachuia =nitla. esponjar con esta esponja. k>. 55m-9 tepoxachuiliztli =tla. esponjadura desta manera. k>. 55m-9 tepoxactli. esponja piedra. k>. 55m-9 tetzacpahtic. very thick. k>. b.10 f.4 tetzacpatic. very thick. k>. b.10 f.8 tetzacpol. spoiled clot. k>. b.4 f.2 tetzactic. cuajada cosa. k>. 55m-4 tetzactic. thick. k>. b.10 f.4 texipaltotomac. thick-lipped. k>. b.2 f.2 texipaltotomacpol. thick-lipped person. k>. b.11 f.21 texipaltotomactic. thick-lipped. k>. b.2 f.2 tezonectli. esponja piedra. k>. 55m-9 ticectic. blanquizca cosa y deslauada. k>. 71m1-4 ticectic. faded; white; chalky. k>. b.10 f.4 ticectontli. chalky and small. k>. b.11 f.3 tilacpahtic. very thick. k>. b.10 f.6 tilacpatic. very thick. k>. b.10 f.4 tilacpol. extremely thick; thick. k>. b.10 f.4 tilactic. espessa cosa assi. k>. 55m-9 tilactic. thick, thickish. k>. b.10 f.4 tilactotonti. thick and small. k>. b.11 f.16 titilacpopol. . k>. b.12 f.3 titilactic. thick overall; thick. k>. b.10 f.5 tlacopitzachuia =nite. herir con vara. k>. 55m-11 tlacopitzachuia =nite=onitetlacopitzachui. herir, o azotar a otro con mimbres, o vardascas. k>. 71m2-20 tlacopitzachuiliztli =te. herida tal. k>. 71m1-13 tlacopitzactli. mimbre, o vardasca para azotar; vara para hostigar. k>. 71m2-20 tlacopitzacuiliztli =te. herida tal. k>. 55m-11 tlacti , tla-. it becomes ruddy. k>. b.11 f.3 tlactia , tla-. it becomes ruddy. k>. b.11 f.3 tlactic , tla-. blotched, reddened; ruddy. k>. b.11 f.2 tlacuacpatic. very firm. k>. b.11 f.19 tlacuactia. endurecerse. k>. 55m-7 tlacuactia. it hardens. k>. b.11 f.24 tlacuactic. cosa dura; dura carne mal cozida; dura carne; mal cozida; dura cosa generalmente. k>. 71m2-23 tlacuactic. firm; hard; tough. k>. b.11 f.11 tlacuactilia =nitla. endurecer algo. k>. 55m-7 tlacuactilia =nitla=onitlatlacuactili. endurecer alguna cosa. k>. 71m2-23 tlacuactililiztli =tla. endurecimiento tal. k>. 55m-7 tlacuactililli =tla. endurecido assi. k>. 55m-7 tlacuactiliztli. dureza; dureza assi; dureza tal. k>. 71m2-23 tlacuactiliztli =tla. endurecimiento tal. k>. 71m1-10 tlalchipacpan. in the early morning. k>. b.12 f.3 tlalhuapitzactli. thin nerve. k>. b.10 f.8 tlaolpatzactic. elado trigo o mayz. k>. 71m1-9 tlaolpatzactli. a?ublado trigo, mayz ocosa semejante. k>. 71m1-2 tlatlactic. ruuia cosa encendida. k>. 55m-17 tlaxochpitzacti. trena o tren?a. k>. 71m1- 20 tlaxochpitzactli. . k>. b.2 f.4 tlaxochpitzactli. trena o tren?a. k>. 55m- 19 tlilectic. ba?o cosa vn poco negra; cosa morena o vn poco negra. k>. 55m-1 tlilectic [scribal error: ??tlilctic for tlilectic: 55m]. negro de guinea. k>. 55m-14 tlilectic. negro vn poco. k>. 55m-14 tlilectic. blackish. k>. b.10 f.6 tlitlilectic. pecoso. k>. 71m2-25 tolpatlactic. ; like a wide reed. <+need:plant .w>k>. b.11 f.21 tolpatlactli. . k>. b.2 f.2 tolpatlactli. espada?a yerua. k>. 55m-9 tolpatlactli. broad reed. k>. b.1 f.2 tomacpol. gorda cosa. k>. 55m-10 tomactic. thick. k>. b.2 f.6 tomactontli. fleshy and small; somewhat thick; thick-bodied; thick and small. k>. b.11 f.2 tomiyopoyactic. dark-furred, having dark fur. k>. b.11 f.2 totomacpol. membrudo de grandes miembros. k>. 71m1-15 totomacpol. very fat. k>. b.10 f.2 tozcachicactic =ni. boz rezia tener para predicar, &c. k>. 71m1-4 xiloxochipatzactli. . k>. b.8 f.2 xocpaltitilacpol. . <+epith .w>k>. b.11 f.21 xopalectic quetzalli. verda pluma rica. k>. 55m-19 xopapatlactic. ombre de grandes pies. k>. 55m-15 xopapatlactic. broad-footed; having wide feet; wide-footed. k>. b.11 f.3 xopipitzactic. . k>. b.11 f.8 xopitzactic. having slender legs. k>. b.11 f.3 xopitzactli. ?anca. k>. 55m-4 xothiticectic. chalky-legged. k>. b.11 f.5 xototomactic. having thick legs. k>. b.11 f.5 yacacocoyactic. having wide nostrils. k>. b.2 f.2 yacapitzactic. ahusada cosa. k>. 71m1-1 yapalectic. cardeno o carne lastimada; cardeno; carne lastimada. k>. 71m1-4 yapalehuac. cardeno o carne lastimada. k>. 71m1-4 yayapalectic. pecoso. k>. 71m2- 5 yollochicactic. magnanimo. k>. 55m- 13 yollotlacuac. endurecido assi o pertinaz; endurecido assi; o pertinaz. k>. 55m-7 yollotlacuactia =ni. confirmarse enel mal. k>. 71m1-5 yollotlacuactiliztli. dureza assi. k>. 71m1-9 zazamac. abuhado assi. k>. 55m-00 zazamactic. . k>. b.10 f.5 zazamactic. abuhado assi. k>. 55m-00 zazamactli. . k>. b.10 f.5 zonectic. esponjosa cosa; liuiana cosa. k>. 55m- 9 zonectic. spiky; spongy; light; fluffy. k>. b.11 f.10 zonectiliztica. liuianamente. k>. 71m1-14 zonectontli. fluffy. k>. b.11 f.5 zotlacmicti , te-. it paralyzes one. k>. b.11 f.13 zotlacmictia , te-. it paralyzes one. k>. b.11 f.13 zotlacmiqui , qui-. it paralyzes him. k>. b.11 f.13 zotlacmiqui. they are stupefied. k>. b.11 f.8 zotlactic. flaca cosa sin fuer?as; flaca; cosa sin fuer?as ni animo; o couarde; floxa cosa en el cuerpo; floxa cosa enel cuerpo. k>. 55m-9 zozotlacmiqui. deadened. k>. b.4 f.10 zozotlactontli. enfermizo; flaco que no se puede tener o enfermizo. k>. 71m1-10 *.w>z*** alazpatic. very smooth. z>. b.11 f.7 alaztic. ; deleznable cosa como anguilla; xabon mojado; &c. z>. 71m2-1 alaztic. sleek; slick; smooth. z>. b.11 f.1 melaztic. cosa derecha y luenga. z>. 71m2-10 *.z>x*** acotlaxtli =tla. aliuiado; desenhadado; persona aliuiada y contenta. x>. 55m-00 actitlaxtli. hazienda disminuida, desperdiciada, o robada. x>. 55m-11 actitlaxtli =tla. hazienda desperdiciada y desminuida. x>. 71m2-19 atzitzicuilotlapahuaxtli. . x>. b.8 f.2 ayopahuaxtli. cooked gourd. x>. b.10 f.5 cactlaxtli =tla. descalzada persona, o desherrada bestia. x>. 71m2-20 cactlaxtli cahuallo =tla. desherrada bestia. x>. 71m1-7 canauhtlapahuaxtli. duck stewed in a pot. x>. b.8 f.2 chilpahuaxtli. chili which is cooked in an olla. x>. b.10 f.4 compahuaxtli , tla-. something which is cooked in a pot; something cooked in an olla. x>. b.10 f.4 compahuaxtli. something cooked in an olla. x>. b.10 f.4 cuitlatlaxtli =tla. horro o horra de esclauo; horro; o horra de esclaua. x>. 55m-11 elopahuaxtli. ear of cooked maize or corn. x>. b.12 f.5 epahuaxmolli. guisado de frisoles o de hauas. x>. 71m2-5 epahuaxtamalli. cooked bean tamale. x>. b.10 f.4 epahuaxtic. like cooked beans. x>. b.10 f.5 epahuaxtlaoyo. containing cooked shelled beans; containing cooked beans with grains of maize. x>. b.2 f.10 epahuaxtli. frisoles o hauas cozidas. x>. 71m2- 5 epahuaxtli. cooked bean. x>. b.10 f.4 etextli. harina de hauas o frisoles. x>. 55m-10 etexyo. having ground beans. x>. b.10 f.5 huecatlaxtli =tla. cosa diferida assi. x>. 71m2-25 ichcatextic. flueco de lana. x>. 55m-10 ihhuitl textli =iuhquin. harina lo sotil della. x>. 55m-10 imacax , m[o]-. your respect. x>. b.6 f.8 imacaxtlanqui. digno de ser temido. x>. 71m1-8 imacaxtlaqui. . x>. b.10 f.1 imacaxtli. digno de ser temido. x>. 71m1-8 imacaxtli , t-. you are stern. x>. b.6 f.5 imacaxtli =atla. desacatado. x>. 55m-5 imacaxtli. respected; revered. x>. b.10 f.3 imacaxyo. revered. x>. b.10 f.1 iotexpan. on the cornmeal. x>. b.2 f.7 iotextli. ; cornmeal. x>. b.2 f.7 ixyotexhuia , m[o]-. they put flour on their faces. x>. b.2 f.2 nenepiltexquimiliuhcayotl. coating on the tongue. x>. b.10 f.8 nenepiltextli. coated tongue. x>. b.10 f.8 nex , itla-. its light. x>. b.11 f.10 ocpahuaxtli. vino cozido. x>. 55m-20 ohuacuauhtextli. cornstalk flour, maize stalk flour; pulverized maize stalk. x>. b.12 f.2 ohuacuauhtexxotia , m[o]-. it is covered with pulverized maize stalk. x>. b.9 f.7 ohuacuauhtexyo. having pulverized maize stalks. x>. b.10 f.5 olpahuaxtli , tla-. maize stew. x>. b.2 f.1 otlaxtli =tla. desencaminado assi. x>. 71m1- 7 o[ya]lpahuaxtli , tla-. cooked grains of maize. x>. b.7 f.2 o[ya]lpahuaxtzintli , tla-. wretched cooked maize. x>. b.9 f.2 o[ya]ltexo , tla-. having ground grains of maize. x>. b.10 f.5 o[ya]ltextica , tla-. with ground maize, using ground maize. x>. b.10 f.4 o[ya]ltextli , tla-. cornmeal. x>. b.2 f.7 o[ya]ltexyo , tla-. having ground maize grains. x>. b.10 f.5 pahuaxtli , tla-. cooked in a pot; cooked; something cooked in a pot. x>. b.8 f.2 pahuaxtli , tlaa-. something boiled in a pot. x>. b.10 f.5 pahuaxtli =tla. cosa cozida en olla. x>. 71m2-22 panitlaxtli =tla. desenterrado muerto. x>. 71m1-7 tlaeltextli. poorly ground flour. x>. b.10 f.4 tlanex , i-. its light. x>. b.11 f.10 tlaolpahuaxtli. cozido maiz sin carne para comerlo assi. x>. 71m1-6 tlaxtli =tla. abortada criatura assi. x>. 55m-00 tzincuauhyotlaxtli =tla. despe?onada fruta. x>. 55m-5 tzontlaxtli =tla. rayda,media hanega. x>. 71m1-18 xilopahuaxtli. . x>. b.12 f.5 xiuhtlaxtli =tla. deseruado. x>. 71m1-7 yoltextli. harina. x>. 55m-10 yoltextli =icencauhca in. harina lo sotil della. x>. 55m-10 From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Fri May 20 05:22:03 2005 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 06:22:03 +0100 Subject: Please what is the WWW address of this group's archives of old messages? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Please what is the WWW address of this group's archives of old messages? From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Fri May 20 13:58:01 2005 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:58:01 -0500 Subject: Please what is the WWW address of this group's archives of old messages? In-Reply-To: <20050520052203.13068.qmail@web86704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 12:22 AM 5/20/2005, you wrote: >Please what is the WWW address of this group's archives of old messages? It is the following: http://lists.umn.edu/archives/nahuat-l.html John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From fcoj98 at YAHOO.COM Sat May 21 15:27:47 2005 From: fcoj98 at YAHOO.COM (FcoJ) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 10:27:47 -0500 Subject: I need some words, pls In-Reply-To: <1116483116.428c2e2c5bc6d@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: This week, someone in this list sent an e-mail with a closing complex sentence by Albert Einstein, saying more or less this, ?if we already know what we are researching, (etc) , wouldn?t be?? if that someone is you, could you send me these words to my e-address below please? Many thanks, FcoJ My e-address: mchpifg3 at stud.umist.ac.uk --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Net: La mejor conexi?n a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Sun May 22 09:07:40 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:07:40 +0200 Subject: I need some words, pls In-Reply-To: <20050521152748.13812.qmail@web50912.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" -Albert Einstein I still had the mail. It was Ruben Mendoza Rikke Marie University of Copenhagen This week, someone in this list sent an e-mail with a closing complex sentence by Albert Einstein, saying more or less this, "if we already know what we are researching, (etc)., wouldn't be?" if that someone is you, could you send me these words to my e-address below please? Many thanks, FcoJ My e-address: mchpifg3 at stud.umist.ac.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Mon May 23 15:53:24 2005 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 11:53:24 -0400 Subject: tepi Message-ID: I know I'm coming to this discussion kind of late (I've been kind of busy), but I just have one comment. First, it is hard to make any kind of definitive statement because we don't have access to the larger context of the document you are working on or even direct access to the part you describe. As you may already know, colonial documents with parallel alphabetic and pictographic texts do not always include everything from one register in the other. So, it is entirely possible that the text you are working on does not include an alphabetic parallel for the glyph in question. So, you don't necessarily have to associate the glyph with an alphabetic name. On the other hand, if Tepi is the surname of the woman and this glyph is associated with her, then this is very strange, because they don't seem to be related. As Fran indicates, the name "Acamapichtli" is well attested, while the name you hypothesize "Amapichtli" is not. It would seem kind of odd, however, to represent the name "Acamapichtli" as a hand grasping water, with the "atl" being a rebus for "acatl" when it would be just as easy to use the well-established and more transparent convention of a hand grasping a reed. I've seen the "Acamapichtli" hand-grasping-a-reed glyph before, but not the hand-grasping-water (keep in mind though that I haven't done any systematic survey of such glyphs). Are you sure it is water in the glyph? If you are correct that it is a hand grasping water, then working from the glyph itself without any clearly parallel alphabetic text is kind of puzzling: the glyph seems to suggest "Amapichtli" while the more common name is "Acamapichtli"; and neither seem to have anything to do with "Tepi." In any case, the name "Amapichtli" would also seem kind of strange in the sense that you can't really grasp water because it isn't solid. But there might be some interesting philosophical implications there. Have you come across the name "Amapichtli" anywhere? If so, I would think that this is the name indicated by the glyph. If not, I think Fran is right that you have to consider the possibility that maybe they were using water as a rebus for "acatl" and that the name is actually "Acamapichtli." Of course, this still doesn't solve the mystery of how it might be related to "Tepi." Maybe there are clues in other parts of the document. Galen Frances Karttunen wrote: > I think the name Delia was inquiring about is A:cama:pi:chtli. > > Ma:pi:ch-tli means 'fist.' A:ca-tl is reed. Rather than representing > water, the water glyph emerging from a fist would be a phonetic hint > that the name in question begins with the vowel/syllable a:. > > > On May 12, 2005, at 7:18 PM, campbel at INDIANA.EDU wrote: > >> "tepiltzin" (note the -tzin) falls apart in different way from >> "tepi" (which >> doesn't fall apart at all). "tepi" is a morpheme, so it has no >> sub-parts, no >> constituents. On the occe maitl, "tepiltzin": >> >> te pil(li) tzin >> someone's child endearing diminutive suffix >> >> With regard to your "a(l(t))-mapitchtli", I doubt that "a:(tl)" >> combines with >> the rest of it in its rarer "al-" form, so it would probably show up >> as "a-". >> In the most common Nahuatl spelling the /ch/ phoneme is spelled "ch" >> (although >> the unitary sound of /ch/ *does* contain a kind of "t"). With the >> leading >> element "cem-", Molina gives both "cemmapichtli" and "cemmapictli": >> >> cemmapichtli haze o haz de cosas menudas; manojo, o hace de cosas >> menudas >> >> cemmapictli ; pun~o o pun~ado assi >> de cosas >> largas; como de pajas o yeruas >> >> cem ma:(itl) pi:qui [patientive noun >> derivation] >> one, complete hand squeeze >> >> (The "ch" form is a variant which is seen frequently in patientive >> nouns.) >> >> Joe >> >> >> Quoting Delia Cosentino : >> >>> Thanks, and just a follow up: is this related to tepilzin at all, i.e. >>> suggesting descent or an offspring, or does it have totally separate >>> linguistic origins? >>> Also, how might people read the name glyph of the stylized stream of >>> water >>> grasped by a hand? Something like...(apologies in >>> advance)...Al(t)mapitchtli? >>> >>> >> > > From schwallr at morris.umn.edu Mon May 23 16:01:47 2005 From: schwallr at morris.umn.edu (John F. Schwaller) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 11:01:47 -0500 Subject: tepi In-Reply-To: <4291FC74.7050705@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: At 10:53 AM 5/23/2005, you wrote: >In >any case, the name "Amapichtli" would also seem kind of strange in the >sense that you can't really grasp water because it isn't solid. But >there might be some interesting philosophical implications there. We also do not see naked bottoms growing out of trees [Huexotzinco], but the glyph is not uncommon. Obviously the point I am making is that the "tzinco" of naked bottom is just a glyph for "tzinco" frequently glossed as new Tollan --> Tollantzinco Similarly, if the glyph described does exist [hand grasping water], and it is not one I recall, could the "water" part be standing in for something else? I am drawing a blank, but others might be able to see it. John F. Schwaller Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean 315 Behmler Hall University of Minnesota, Morris 600 E 4th Street Morris, MN 56267 320-589-6015 FAX 320-589-6399 schwallr at morris.umn.edu From L.Diel at TCU.EDU Mon May 23 17:47:11 2005 From: L.Diel at TCU.EDU (Lori Boornazian Diel) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:47:11 -0500 Subject: tepi In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050523105707.04162150@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: In the Codex Aubin, a glyph of a hand grasping water (at 12 House 1569) is used from the name Ana, a(tl) + ma(itl) for a-ma. Also, in the Codex of Tlatelolco, the name glyph for Juan is written with a year sign (for xiuh-) and then a hand grasping water, thereby giving xiuh-a-m(a) or an approximation of Juan (this happens in 5 different places in the ms). So if it's a reference to a colonial woman, could it be her first name, Ana? I'm pretty sure I've seen this glyph elsewhere for the name Ana as well. Best, Lori Diel -- Lori Boornazian Diel Dept. of Art and Art History TCU Box 298000 Texas Christian University Fort Worth, TX 76129 817-257-6613 on 5/23/05 11:01 AM, John F. Schwaller at schwallr at morris.umn.edu wrote: > At 10:53 AM 5/23/2005, you wrote: >> In >> any case, the name "Amapichtli" would also seem kind of strange in the >> sense that you can't really grasp water because it isn't solid. But >> there might be some interesting philosophical implications there. > > > We also do not see naked bottoms growing out of trees [Huexotzinco], but > the glyph is not uncommon. Obviously the point I am making is that the > "tzinco" of naked bottom is just a glyph for "tzinco" frequently glossed as > new Tollan --> Tollantzinco > > Similarly, if the glyph described does exist [hand grasping water], and it > is not one I recall, could the "water" part be standing in for something > else? I am drawing a blank, but others might be able to see it. > > > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at morris.umn.edu From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Mon May 23 18:32:35 2005 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 14:32:35 -0400 Subject: tepi Message-ID: Fritz, When I said "Amapichtli" seemed strange, I was not referring to the pictographic morphology but rather to the meaning of the verbal morphology of the word itself. The meaning of the hypothesized name "Amapichtli" would be somethig like "water-fist" or "fist of water." That meaning is what seems kind of strange, not the pictographic image of water in a fist. One can easily see what the motivation would have been behind the construction of the word "Acamapichtli": a hand grasping a reed. It is more difficult, although perhaps not impossible, to come up with a basis for constructing a word like "Amapichtli." But this is only a comment on the meaning of the verbal morphology of the word hypothesized from a glyph. And since "Amapichtli" was a hypothesized word based on a pictographic glyph, the strangeness of the meaning of the hypothesized verbal morphology seems to suggest, as you imply in your question, that either 1) the word indicated by the glyph is "Amapichtli" but the first "a" is not from "atl" but rather serves as a pun on an identical morpheme; or 2) that the word isn't "Amapichtli" at all and that the pictographic morpheme of water is used to signal a more complex verbal morpheme that probably begins with [a]. The first option doesn't seem very likely. So, if there is no such name as "Amapichtli" with the first [a] being from [atl] (and that is what I was suggesting when I said that it sounds strange), then the verbal morpheme signaled by the glyph is probably not merely [a]. So, the second option is more probably, which is why I think Fran suggested "Acamapichtli." In other words, just based on the glyph, we can never assume that the intended verbal segment of a pictographic water-glyph is simply "a-". It could very well be something more complex like "aca-" from "acatl", or perhaps some other morpheme that begins with the phoneme [a]. It is hard to say just based on the glyph. In other words, the pictographic puns do not always establish relationships between perfectly homophonous words; they don't have to be exact. In the case of "tzin" which appears attached to some reeds [tolin] to produce Tollantzinco or Tulantzinco, there is a perfect homophonic correspondence between the honorific "tzin" of the toponym and the "tzin" meaning buttocks depicted in the glyph (although in some cases, maybe some variation in vowel length?). So anyway, to get back to my point, in most cases, a rebus pun is inherently going to appear strange if you read it mimetically. But the mimetic "strangeness" of pictographic morphology has nothing to do with strangeness of verbal morphology. Galen The example of "tzin" is not parallel because it i "tzin" is not parallel because John F. Schwaller wrote: > At 10:53 AM 5/23/2005, you wrote: > >> In >> any case, the name "Amapichtli" would also seem kind of strange in the >> sense that you can't really grasp water because it isn't solid. But >> there might be some interesting philosophical implications there. > > > > We also do not see naked bottoms growing out of trees [Huexotzinco], but > the glyph is not uncommon. Obviously the point I am making is that the > "tzinco" of naked bottom is just a glyph for "tzinco" frequently glossed as > new Tollan --> Tollantzinco > > Similarly, if the glyph described does exist [hand grasping water], and it > is not one I recall, could the "water" part be standing in for something > else? I am drawing a blank, but others might be able to see it. > > > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at morris.umn.edu > > From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Mon May 23 18:58:56 2005 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 14:58:56 -0400 Subject: tepi Message-ID: Lori, thank you. Of course. This makes a lot of sense. This is very interesting, and just goes to show that the whole "-mapichtli" angle that we were following was misguided from the start. This resolves the "puzzle" that I mentioned. As I said in my original response, aside from all the interesting things that can be said about verbal morphology, glyph morphology, and their relationship, there didn't seem to be any way to associate the glyph with the name "Tepi" that Delia gave from the document. That was the real puzzling thing. I would be willing to bet, and I'm sure Delia will probably confirm that the woman's name was Ana. Lori, I think your explication of the glyph might be valid with the "ma" being a close pun on "-na". But I wonder if it might be more likely that this is an interesting example of the kind of phenomenological configuration that you also see in more complex non-rebus pictographic images (from the Laud codex, for example) where in some cases you have two elements combined, one of which is contained within the other. This type of interpretation would see the hand grasping the water as indicating "ana" which means "to grab" and the water glyph would also pun on [atl] to indicate the verbal segment [a] which begins the name "Ana." The point being that you can't really grab without grabbing something. So, they take advantage of the the phenomenological necessity of the coupling of the grabbing and the object being grabbed to reinforce the phonetic aspect of the word indicated. Galen Lori Boornazian Diel wrote: > In the Codex Aubin, a glyph of a hand grasping water (at 12 House 1569) is > used from the name Ana, a(tl) + ma(itl) for a-ma. Also, in the Codex of > Tlatelolco, the name glyph for Juan is written with a year sign (for xiuh-) > and then a hand grasping water, thereby giving xiuh-a-m(a) or an > approximation of Juan (this happens in 5 different places in the ms). So if > it's a reference to a colonial woman, could it be her first name, Ana? I'm > pretty sure I've seen this glyph elsewhere for the name Ana as well. > Best, > Lori Diel > > > > -- > Lori Boornazian Diel > Dept. of Art and Art History > TCU Box 298000 > Texas Christian University > Fort Worth, TX 76129 > 817-257-6613 > > > > on 5/23/05 11:01 AM, John F. Schwaller at schwallr at morris.umn.edu wrote: > > >>At 10:53 AM 5/23/2005, you wrote: >> >>>In >>>any case, the name "Amapichtli" would also seem kind of strange in the >>>sense that you can't really grasp water because it isn't solid. But >>>there might be some interesting philosophical implications there. >> >> >>We also do not see naked bottoms growing out of trees [Huexotzinco], but >>the glyph is not uncommon. Obviously the point I am making is that the >>"tzinco" of naked bottom is just a glyph for "tzinco" frequently glossed as >>new Tollan --> Tollantzinco >> >>Similarly, if the glyph described does exist [hand grasping water], and it >>is not one I recall, could the "water" part be standing in for something >>else? I am drawing a blank, but others might be able to see it. >> >> >> >> >> >>John F. Schwaller >>Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean >>315 Behmler Hall >>University of Minnesota, Morris >>600 E 4th Street >>Morris, MN 56267 >>320-589-6015 >>FAX 320-589-6399 >>schwallr at morris.umn.edu > > > From dacosentino at EARTHLINK.NET Mon May 23 22:55:04 2005 From: dacosentino at EARTHLINK.NET (Delia Cosentino) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:55:04 -0500 Subject: tepi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lori--I think you've answer A LOT of questions (not just mine) with your extraordinarily helpful observation. Indeed, the woman with the surname Tepi does have the first name Ana. I just couldn't even imagine the connection to the glyph so I didn't even mention it--but what you offer certainly explains it. I'll have to check out the Aubin image (did you first identify that glyph as Ana or is it spelled out in the codex? Ditto for the Juan glyph). So, I guess the upshot is that a hand CAN grasp water and it isn't so strange--especially for those named Ana! MIL GRACIAS, Delia Delia Cosentino Department of Art and Art History DePaul University -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Lori Boornazian Diel Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 12:47 PM To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: tepi In the Codex Aubin, a glyph of a hand grasping water (at 12 House 1569) is used from the name Ana, a(tl) + ma(itl) for a-ma. Also, in the Codex of Tlatelolco, the name glyph for Juan is written with a year sign (for xiuh-) and then a hand grasping water, thereby giving xiuh-a-m(a) or an approximation of Juan (this happens in 5 different places in the ms). So if it's a reference to a colonial woman, could it be her first name, Ana? I'm pretty sure I've seen this glyph elsewhere for the name Ana as well. Best, Lori Diel -- Lori Boornazian Diel Dept. of Art and Art History TCU Box 298000 Texas Christian University Fort Worth, TX 76129 817-257-6613 on 5/23/05 11:01 AM, John F. Schwaller at schwallr at morris.umn.edu wrote: > At 10:53 AM 5/23/2005, you wrote: >> In >> any case, the name "Amapichtli" would also seem kind of strange in the >> sense that you can't really grasp water because it isn't solid. But >> there might be some interesting philosophical implications there. > > > We also do not see naked bottoms growing out of trees [Huexotzinco], but > the glyph is not uncommon. Obviously the point I am making is that the > "tzinco" of naked bottom is just a glyph for "tzinco" frequently glossed as > new Tollan --> Tollantzinco > > Similarly, if the glyph described does exist [hand grasping water], and it > is not one I recall, could the "water" part be standing in for something > else? I am drawing a blank, but others might be able to see it. > > > > > > John F. Schwaller > Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean > 315 Behmler Hall > University of Minnesota, Morris > 600 E 4th Street > Morris, MN 56267 > 320-589-6015 > FAX 320-589-6399 > schwallr at morris.umn.edu From L.Diel at TCU.EDU Tue May 24 15:00:07 2005 From: L.Diel at TCU.EDU (Lori Boornazian Diel) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:00:07 -0500 Subject: tepi In-Reply-To: <000a01c55fea$75b32d70$6501a8c0@Delia> Message-ID: I think Galen is right about the hand grasping glyph being read as "to grasp" instead of as "hand," with the water then acting as both the something grasped and a phonetic indicator. Indeed, I just went back over my M.A. Thesis ("A Comparative Study of Personal and Place Names in the Aztec and Mayan Writing Systems," Tulane, 1996) in which I have a chapter on Spanish names in Aztec writing and found the original citation for the Juan glyph: Robert Barlow in his study of the Codex of Tlatelolco identified the Juan glyph and reads ana just as Galen did (see Tlatelolco: Fuentes e Historia. Obras de Robert Barlow, vol. 2, INAH, 1989, p. 343). In the Codex Aubin, the glyph has an associated annotation about the death of a woman named Ana. Lori -- Lori Boornazian Diel Dept. of Art and Art History TCU Box 298000 Texas Christian University Fort Worth, TX 76129 817-257-6613 on 5/23/05 5:55 PM, Delia Cosentino at dacosentino at EARTHLINK.NET wrote: > Lori--I think you've answer A LOT of questions (not just mine) with your > extraordinarily helpful observation. Indeed, the woman with the surname Tepi > does have the first name Ana. I just couldn't even imagine the connection to > the glyph so I didn't even mention it--but what you offer certainly explains > it. I'll have to check out the Aubin image (did you first identify that > glyph as Ana or is it spelled out in the codex? Ditto for the Juan glyph). > So, I guess the upshot is that a hand CAN grasp water and it isn't so > strange--especially for those named Ana! MIL GRACIAS, Delia > > Delia Cosentino > Department of Art and Art History > DePaul University > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] > On Behalf Of Lori Boornazian Diel > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 12:47 PM > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Re: tepi > > In the Codex Aubin, a glyph of a hand grasping water (at 12 House 1569) is > used from the name Ana, a(tl) + ma(itl) for a-ma. Also, in the Codex of > Tlatelolco, the name glyph for Juan is written with a year sign (for xiuh-) > and then a hand grasping water, thereby giving xiuh-a-m(a) or an > approximation of Juan (this happens in 5 different places in the ms). So if > it's a reference to a colonial woman, could it be her first name, Ana? I'm > pretty sure I've seen this glyph elsewhere for the name Ana as well. > Best, > Lori Diel > > > > -- > Lori Boornazian Diel > Dept. of Art and Art History > TCU Box 298000 > Texas Christian University > Fort Worth, TX 76129 > 817-257-6613 > > > > on 5/23/05 11:01 AM, John F. Schwaller at schwallr at morris.umn.edu wrote: > >> At 10:53 AM 5/23/2005, you wrote: >>> In >>> any case, the name "Amapichtli" would also seem kind of strange in the >>> sense that you can't really grasp water because it isn't solid. But >>> there might be some interesting philosophical implications there. >> >> >> We also do not see naked bottoms growing out of trees [Huexotzinco], but >> the glyph is not uncommon. Obviously the point I am making is that the >> "tzinco" of naked bottom is just a glyph for "tzinco" frequently glossed > as >> new Tollan --> Tollantzinco >> >> Similarly, if the glyph described does exist [hand grasping water], and it >> is not one I recall, could the "water" part be standing in for something >> else? I am drawing a blank, but others might be able to see it. >> >> >> >> >> >> John F. Schwaller >> Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and Dean >> 315 Behmler Hall >> University of Minnesota, Morris >> 600 E 4th Street >> Morris, MN 56267 >> 320-589-6015 >> FAX 320-589-6399 >> schwallr at morris.umn.edu From jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Thu May 26 02:11:02 2005 From: jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Rabasa?=) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:11:02 -0700 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050203111833.04397f98@schwallr.email.umn.edu> Message-ID: Dear Listeros: A group of us in the Bay Area have a Nahuatl workshop in which we have been reading Chimalpahin's Diario. We found the following passage a bit difficult to sort out. It comes from that section in which Chimalpahin compares Nahuatl and European language on eclipses. The passage reads: "ynic otlatoca ynic momamallacachotihui ynic mopapanahuitihui ynic cecenteotlatoca, ynic yzqui tlanepanoltitimani ylhuicame" (Rafael Tena's edition p. 228). We are particularly undecided on how to read cecenteotlatoca. Because of the earlier otlatoca (avanzar, andar) we thought that it could be a combination of cecentetl and otlatoca but cecentl as an adjetive could not modify a verb. The other option would be to read cecen and teotlatoca (teotl.tlatoa.ca), which would translate as "each one is god talk." This gets particularly heady given that the European talk on the planets would amount to theology rather than science, etc. etc., etc. Is this a pun? Any suggestions? Thanks, Jose Rabasa From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Thu May 26 06:03:31 2005 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 07:03:31 +0100 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: --- Jos? Rabasa wrote: > We are particularly undecided on how to read cecenteotlatoca. ... > The other option would be to read cecen and teotlatoca > (teotl.tlatoa.ca), which would translate as "each one is god talk.". > This gets particularly heady given that the > European talk on the planets would amount to theology rather than > science, etc. etc., etc. Is this a pun? Any suggestions? The Nahuatl author may may heard that the European names of the planets are also names of old Roman gods. From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Thu May 26 14:16:35 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:16:35 +0200 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jose About cecenteotlatoca. I would analyze it c?-cen-te-?-tla-toca. I think the first c? is distributive. Centetl means simply one. ? is the root for road. Tla is the absolutive suffix, which is still attached because nahauspeakers dislike short words. Toca is the verb and means follow. All in all You have an incorporated noun (or two if You count centetl, which is actually a numeral, but acts like a noun here because of tetl). I would translate it: they follow different paths or routes. I haven't looked at the rest of the sentence, so should probably be ajusted a bit. Best regards, Rikke Marie Olsen, Student at the Departement of Native American Language and Culture, University of Copenhagen. -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Jos? Rabasa Sent: 26. maj 2005 04:11 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Chimalpahin Dear Listeros: A group of us in the Bay Area have a Nahuatl workshop in which we have been reading Chimalpahin's Diario. We found the following passage a bit difficult to sort out. It comes from that section in which Chimalpahin compares Nahuatl and European language on eclipses. The passage reads: "ynic otlatoca ynic momamallacachotihui ynic mopapanahuitihui ynic cecenteotlatoca, ynic yzqui tlanepanoltitimani ylhuicame" (Rafael Tena's edition p. 228). We are particularly undecided on how to read cecenteotlatoca. Because of the earlier otlatoca (avanzar, andar) we thought that it could be a combination of cecentetl and otlatoca but cecentl as an adjetive could not modify a verb. The other option would be to read cecen and teotlatoca (teotl.tlatoa.ca), which would translate as "each one is god talk." This gets particularly heady given that the European talk on the planets would amount to theology rather than science, etc. etc., etc. Is this a pun? Any suggestions? Thanks, Jose Rabasa From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Thu May 26 18:42:52 2005 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:42:52 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin Message-ID: Jose, Rikke Marie beat me to the answer, and I think the translation is certainly correct, but I would add a couple of things and a question for Rikke Marie or anybody else. First, it is just interesting to note that Nahuat texts often make our job a lot easier, because as in the case you cite Nahuatl discoruse has a tendency to express the same idea repeatedly using a variety of different words. Such synonymous expressions are not always exactly the same, which helps give you a more complete picture of what is being conveyed. Nevertheless, when they provide a series of more or less synonymous expressions, it makes it easier to figure out any given one of them that may not be as morphologically transparent as the rest. With regard to the specific phrase you mention, it would seem to be clear that the "o" is from "ohtli" or "otli" meaning "road" or "path", and that otlatoca means to follow a path or a road. This is well attested. But I'm curious about the "tla" in this construction. Is it merely a transformation of the absolutive suffix "tli" in order to avoid a short word? Are there a lot of examples of this kind of thing? Or is there another explanation? Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is a kind of fossilized non-specific object pronoun (which is evident in some other verbs), but I really don't know, especially given the fact that it is clear that "toca" does not always appear with this object pronoun. So it certainly isn't always fossilized. I know this doesn't really pose a problem for translation, because "otlatoca" is well attested in other contexts, including the instance just a few words earlier in this same text. So this is just a question to satisfy the morphological rigor that Joe instilled me :-). With regard to "cecente[tl]", part of the problem is that to classify Nahuatl words as nouns, ajectives, and verbs is sometimes misleading. The point is that self-conscious grammar enters into a dialogic relationship with linguistic practice in ways that tend to codify language in clear cut ways that do not necessarily reflect the more flexible and nebulous linguistic ontology of unfettered oral speech that has not been subject to a process of self-conscious grammaticalization. So, although in some cases "cecente-" may seem to function as what we call an ajective, as Rikki Marie points out technically it is a noun because it has that noun root 'te' from 'tetl', and nouns (normally defined in Nahuatl as words that take absolutive suffixes) can be imbedded in verbs to function as either objects or adverbs as defined by modern grammatical categories. With the duplication of the "ce", the "cecente" might be rendered as "each one." The plural "ilhuicame" at the end seems to suggest that it is talking about celestial planes. (Is he talking here perhaps about the European model of concentric heavens?) So it seems to me that the phrase "cecenteotlatoca" could be understood as saying literally "They path-followed in an each-one like way" which would translate more eloquently in English as "Each one followed its path" or maybe even better "They followed their respective paths." Galen Rikke Marie Olsen wrote: > Dear Jose > > About cecenteotlatoca. I would analyze it c?-cen-te-?-tla-toca. I think the > first c? is distributive. Centetl means simply one. ? is the root for road. > Tla is the absolutive suffix, which is still attached because nahauspeakers > dislike short words. Toca is the verb and means follow. All in all You have > an incorporated noun (or two if You count centetl, which is actually a > numeral, but acts like a noun here because of tetl). > I would translate it: they follow different paths or routes. I haven't > looked at the rest of the sentence, so should probably be ajusted a bit. > > Best regards, > Rikke Marie Olsen, > Student at the Departement of Native American Language and Culture, > University of Copenhagen. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] > On Behalf Of Jos? Rabasa > Sent: 26. maj 2005 04:11 > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Chimalpahin > > Dear Listeros: > > A group of us in the Bay Area have a Nahuatl workshop in which we > have been reading Chimalpahin's Diario. We found the following > passage a bit difficult to sort out. It comes from that section in > which Chimalpahin compares Nahuatl and European language on eclipses. > The passage reads: > > "ynic otlatoca ynic momamallacachotihui ynic mopapanahuitihui ynic > cecenteotlatoca, ynic yzqui tlanepanoltitimani ylhuicame" (Rafael > Tena's edition p. 228). > > We are particularly undecided on how to read cecenteotlatoca. > Because of the earlier otlatoca (avanzar, andar) we thought that it > could be a combination of cecentetl and otlatoca but cecentl as an > adjetive could not modify a verb. The other option would be to read > cecen and teotlatoca (teotl.tlatoa.ca), which would translate as > "each one is god talk." This gets particularly heady given that the > European talk on the planets would amount to theology rather than > science, etc. etc., etc. Is this a pun? Any suggestions? > > Thanks, > > Jose Rabasa > > From jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Thu May 26 19:52:13 2005 From: jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Rabasa?=) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:52:13 -0700 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <429618AC.5020707@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: Galen, Thanks for this most thorough explanation of the morphology of the terms. I appreciate your indication about the limits of such gramatical catgeories as adjetives, nouns and adverbs, and your underscoring that oral speech has a more flexible and nebulous ontology that is not subject to grammaticalization. But I wonder to what extent we speak of Chimalpahin as someone who is not at least in this particular passage merely reporting oral speech but developing a self-conscious written Nahuatl. As you point out the otlatoca is attested by Molina, and figures earlier in the passage. I cannot answer the question you pose as to the passage from -tli in otli to -tla- in otlatoca. But perhaps someone else can say something about it. Your silence regarding the possible pun suggests that morphologically it makes no sense to derive cecen.teotl.tlatoa.ca, "each one by god talk." Is this correct or does it not make sense because of the context, but couldn't it be a parenthetical remark? I know this is not the simplest of explanations; given the insistence on the repetition of movement in "momamallacachotihui" (como se van girando), mpopapanahuitihui (como se van sobrepasando), it would make more sense to speak of cecenteotlatoca (como siguen unos a otros), but note that the reflexive has been dropped and that a coma separates this sequence from Ynic yzqui tlanepanoltitimani yluicame (como todos estan juntos en el cielo). In short, if the the alternate morphological analysis is correct, there could be a pun ?no? If not what phonological reason could be given to exclude the possibility. Jose >Jose, >Rikke Marie beat me to the answer, and I think the translation is >certainly correct, but I would add a couple of things and a question for >Rikke Marie or anybody else. >First, it is just interesting to note that Nahuat texts often make our >job a lot easier, because as in the case you cite Nahuatl discoruse has >a tendency to express the same idea repeatedly using a variety of >different words. Such synonymous expressions are not always exactly the >same, which helps give you a more complete picture of what is being >conveyed. Nevertheless, when they provide a series of more or less >synonymous expressions, it makes it easier to figure out any given one >of them that may not be as morphologically transparent as the rest. >With regard to the specific phrase you mention, it would seem to be >clear that the "o" is from "ohtli" or "otli" meaning "road" or "path", >and that otlatoca means to follow a path or a road. This is well >attested. But I'm curious about the "tla" in this construction. Is it >merely a transformation of the absolutive suffix "tli" in order to avoid >a short word? Are there a lot of examples of this kind of thing? Or is >there another explanation? Of course, the first thing that comes to mind >is a kind of fossilized non-specific object pronoun (which is evident in >some other verbs), but I really don't know, especially given the fact >that it is clear that "toca" does not always appear with this object >pronoun. So it certainly isn't always fossilized. I know this doesn't >really pose a problem for translation, because "otlatoca" is well >attested in other contexts, including the instance just a few words >earlier in this same text. So this is just a question to satisfy the >morphological rigor that Joe instilled me :-). >With regard to "cecente[tl]", part of the problem is that to classify >Nahuatl words as nouns, ajectives, and verbs is sometimes misleading. >The point is that self-conscious grammar enters into a dialogic >relationship with linguistic practice in ways that tend to codify >language in clear cut ways that do not necessarily reflect the more >flexible and nebulous linguistic ontology of unfettered oral speech that >has not been subject to a process of self-conscious grammaticalization. >So, although in some cases "cecente-" may seem to function as what we >call an ajective, as Rikki Marie points out technically it is a noun >because it has that noun root 'te' from 'tetl', and nouns (normally >defined in Nahuatl as words that take absolutive suffixes) can be >imbedded in verbs to function as either objects or adverbs as defined by >modern grammatical categories. With the duplication of the "ce", the >"cecente" might be rendered as "each one." The plural "ilhuicame" at the >end seems to suggest that it is talking about celestial planes. (Is he >talking here perhaps about the European model of concentric heavens?) So >it seems to me that the phrase "cecenteotlatoca" could be understood as >saying literally "They path-followed in an each-one like way" which >would translate more eloquently in English as "Each one followed its >path" or maybe even better "They followed their respective paths." >Galen > > > > > > >Rikke Marie Olsen wrote: >>Dear Jose >> >>About cecenteotlatoca. I would analyze it c?-cen-te-?-tla-toca. I think the >>first c? is distributive. Centetl means simply one. ? is the root for road. >>Tla is the absolutive suffix, which is still attached because nahauspeakers >>dislike short words. Toca is the verb and means follow. All in all You have >>an incorporated noun (or two if You count centetl, which is actually a >>numeral, but acts like a noun here because of tetl). >>I would translate it: they follow different paths or routes. I haven't >>looked at the rest of the sentence, so should probably be ajusted a bit. >> >>Best regards, >>Rikke Marie Olsen, >>Student at the Departement of Native American Language and Culture, >>University of Copenhagen. >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] >>On Behalf Of Jos? Rabasa >>Sent: 26. maj 2005 04:11 >>To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >>Subject: Chimalpahin >> >>Dear Listeros: >> >>A group of us in the Bay Area have a Nahuatl workshop in which we >>have been reading Chimalpahin's Diario. We found the following >>passage a bit difficult to sort out. It comes from that section in >>which Chimalpahin compares Nahuatl and European language on eclipses. >>The passage reads: >> >>"ynic otlatoca ynic momamallacachotihui ynic mopapanahuitihui ynic >>cecenteotlatoca, ynic yzqui tlanepanoltitimani ylhuicame" (Rafael >>Tena's edition p. 228). >> >>We are particularly undecided on how to read cecenteotlatoca. >>Because of the earlier otlatoca (avanzar, andar) we thought that it >>could be a combination of cecentetl and otlatoca but cecentl as an >>adjetive could not modify a verb. The other option would be to read >>cecen and teotlatoca (teotl.tlatoa.ca), which would translate as >>"each one is god talk." This gets particularly heady given that the >>European talk on the planets would amount to theology rather than >>science, etc. etc., etc. Is this a pun? Any suggestions? >> >>Thanks, >> >>Jose Rabasa From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Thu May 26 22:17:40 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:17:40 -0500 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Jos? Rabasa : > As you point out the otlatoca is attested by > Molina, and figures earlier in the passage. I > cannot answer the question you pose as to the > passage from -tli in otli to -tla- in otlatoca. > Tocayo, I collected some examples of "ohtlatoca" last night and I think I've cleaned out (most of) the irrelevant ones. Galen's commentary has covered beyond what I could have said when onicochmic. I just wanted to add a comment to the problem about the mysterious "tla". The active morphology of Nahuatl involves forms such as the following: ni-c-toca I follow him ni-tla-toca I follow something And, as in the case with other verbs, "tla-" sometimes fuses to form a new intransitive verb "tlatoca" (to follow or continue along). The noun stem "oh-" is then prefixed adverbially. "Tla-" fusion is sometimes recognizable by the placement of those adverbial nouns -- the position inside the adverbial noun (close to the verb) is an indication of fusion, just as is the reduplication of the "tla-", since objects don't reduplicate, but something fused and made into an integral part of the verb stem will. Saludos, Joe huallotlatocatiaque** 1. inic matlactli capitulo: oncan mitoa in quenin espa?oles zan ihuian, huallalhuaccaquizque, *huallotlatocatiaque* ihuan in quenin moteuczoma quicauh in huei tecpan,. tenth chapter, in which it is told how quite slowly the spaniards came forth to dry land, [how] they followed along the road, and how moctezuma left the great palace; (b.12 f.2 p.27). hualotlatoca** 2. achtopa hualquiza in eztli, ic neci ca ye *hualotlatoca*, ye quihualtopehua in piltzintli:. first the blood comes out, which shows that the baby is about to follow, about to be forced out. (b.11 f.18 p.180). 3. auh in ohuallalhuacaquizque yequene ic huitze: in ye hualolinizque, in ye hualolini, in ye *hualotlatoca*, cenca necuitlahuiloque, mahuizmachoque,. and when the spaniards came forth to dry land, [when] finally they so came, when already they were to move, when already they moved, when already they followed the road, they were well cared for, they were held in esteem. (b.12 f.2 p.23). hualotlatocaque** 4. zan temac in huallatiaque, in *hualotlatocaque*,. it was completely in [the emissaries'] hands that they went along, that they followed the road along. (b.12 f.2 p.23). hualotlatocaya** 5. auh quin oncan maco: in inneoquichitol in apozonaltentetl, ihuan quetzalcoyolnacochtli, quetzalichayatl coxoli, ehcacehuaztli: zacuantica tlatzimpacholli, xahuactopilli, toztlapilollo, cuitlacochio, in ipan *hualotlatocaya*, inic hualahcia in nican mexico.. and then [and] there they were given their symbols of conquest--the amber lip plugs, and the green, shell-shaped ear pendants; the netted maguey fiber capes; the crested guan feather fans covered with troupial feathers at the bottom; the black staves with tassels of curve-billed thrasher feathers, with which they took the road to arrive here in mexico. (b.9 f.2 p.22). 6. auh inic hualmocuepaya anahuac: inic *hualotlatocaya*, inic hualhuia, ye oticteneuhque,. and how they returned from anauac, how they followed the roads, how they came back, we have already told. (b.9 f.3 p.31). imotlatocaya** 7. quitlaquentiaya amatica: in intopil, imotlatopil, in inenemia, in *imotlatocaya*,. they arrayed in paper their staves, their stout traveling staves with which they journeyed, with which they traveled. (b.1 f.2 p.41). iotlatocaya** 8. huellaixnextia, inic quitemoa, icochca, ineuhca, in icemilhuitiaya, in *iotlatocaya*, in inenca, in nencayotl, in nemoani, in nemoaloni, in otlatoconi,. he labored industriously to gain sustenance, his daily bread his trail rations, his livelihood, his maintenance, the source of life, the means of living, and provisions for traveling. (b.4 f.12 p.125). motlatocaya** 9. auh in nel otlatlan in motacatzin, in *motlatocaya*:. for verily thy provisions have ended--that with which one hath traveled. (b.4 f.6 p.62). ohuallotlatocac** 10. inic cecencalpan *ohuallotlatocac*, in ye mochi tonalli omoteneuh, in ipan otlatlatoloc, otlatlatolloac.. [so] each group proceeded on its way; all the day signs mentioned, of which there hath been discourse and discussion. (b.4 f.12 p.132). ohualotlatocatia** 11. inic inca *ohualotlatocatia*, inic ohualmacantia in inteucyo, in intlatocayo. thus, through them, their dignity, their patrimony, advanced [and] spread. (b.9 f.3 p.32). onotlatocaz** 12. auh quen *onotlatocaz*. but how will he go on his way? (b.2 f.13 p.216). otlatoca** 13. in yehuantin tlaamahuia, ihcuac pehua, in ihcuac ompehua, *otlatoca* painal.. those who rolled up the paper began at the time that paynal had begun to follow his path. (b.2 f.9 p.145). 14. auh in ye iuhqui, niman ye ic ompehua niman ye ic *otlatoca*,. and when this was done, thereupon he departed, thereupon he followed the road. (b.3 f.3 p.33). 15. nican za cencamatica, cententica onmonextia, in quenin cenca ye miyecpa omito, in iuhqui inenezca, itoloca, itenehualoca, itlatollo, itlatlatollo: in quenami cecemilhuitl tonalli ipan mochihua, in iuh tecpantihui, ic *otlatoca*: in oncan cualtitiuh, ihuan in amo cualli, in amo yeccan,. here, in only a word, a statement, is made plain, as hath many times been told, the manner of its significance, its account, exposition, history, and discussion; and in what manner the sign of each day came to pass, how they proceeded in order, so following along; those which came good; and the evil, of unfavorable time. (b.4 f.12 p.129). 16. auh in ohualquiz tonatiuh, in ye *otlatoca*, in ye cahuiltitihuitze, in ye coyohuitihuitze yaomicque in tiacahuan, in ye otlatocatiuh in yehuatl tonatiuh: niman mocencahua in cihua, moyaochichihua concui in chimalli, in tlahuiztli:. and when the sun had emerged, when already it had advanced along its course, when those who had died in war, the brave warriors, already came gladdening it, came giving cries for it, when this sun had already advanced along its course, then the women arrayed themselves, armed themselves as for war, took the shields, the devices. (b.6 f.13 p.163). 17. auh in ye iuhqui: in ihcuac ye omomanaco onteixtin, ye no cuele ahuel olini, *otlatoca*,. and when this was done, when both appeared [over the earth] together, they could, on the other hand, not move nor follow their paths. (b.7 f.1 p.7). 18. quin yehuatl huel colini, niman ye ic *otlatoca*.. at once he could move him, who thereupon went on his way. (b.7 f.1 p.8). 19. auh in ihcuac, ye *otlatoca*, zan ompa ommocauh in metztli:. and when he had already followed his course, only the moon remained there. (b.7 f.1 p.8). 20. ihuiyan, yocoxca, in *otlatoca*.. they followed the road slowly and carefully. (b.8 f.3 p.52). 21. auh inic nenemi, amo cemilhuitl: in *otlatoca*: zan yoaltica.. and so they journeyed not by day when they traveled, but by night. (b.9 f.2 p.18). 22. auh in ye *otlatoca*, in ye yauh painalton, niman ye ic quinhuica in tlatlaaltiltin, oncan quihualnamiquia in tlaamahuiaya, in inacaztlan cohuatlan, oncan momanaya in teoithualco.. and as he was already following the road, as painalton already went, thereupon they conducted the bathed slaves to the outskirts of [the calpulli of] coatlan, where they came upon the place of encirclement situated there at the temple courtyard. (b.9 f.5 p.64). 23. auh in axcan, macihui in aocmo cenca monequi tlahuiztli: ca zan ye iuh *otlatoca*, zan ye iuh motocatiuh in tlachihualli, in tlachichihualiztli:. but today, although devices are no longer much required, in the same way the making, the ornamenting, of articles proceed; they advance. (b.9 f.7 p.92). 24. za za ye yauh in ye yauh, ca zan ye *otlatoca*,. he goes to no purpose when he goes; he travels the road to no purpose. (b.10 f.4 p.60). 25. auh in ihcuac canapa hui, in *otlatoca*, za ce in teyacana, zan motecpana, za cempanti, ompa onmotztihui in tezcac in intzintempan mamantiuh:. and when they went somewhere, as they made their way, following a single leader, in order, in line, there they went looking into the mirror which [the one ahead] went bearing in the middle of his back. (b.10 f.10 p.173). 26. auh inic *otlatoca*, inic nenemi amo huel yauh in tlalnemiuhyan: hueli patlania in zacatl, in tlacotl, in tlein huapahuac.. and thus it advances, thus it travels: it cannot go on bare ground; it can fly on grass, on shrubs, on anything rough. (b.11 f.8 p.76). 27. inic nenemi zan motitihuana, inic *otlatoca* zan necoc motlaloa.. to travel, it just stretches itself out; to go along its way, it just runs on both ends. (b.11 f.8 p.79). 28. in ihcuac omacic, za onoc acampa *otlatoca*:. when mature, it only lies somewhere, where they travel the road. (b.11 f.8 p.79). 29. inic *otlatoca* mopetzcoa, auh in quenman zan momimiloa iuhquinma metlapilli:. as it travels, it slithers, and sometimes it only rolls like a mano. (b.11 f.8 p.82). 30. auh in campa *otlatoca* ompa ihyaxtiuh, cololhuitihui in zayolti, quicahuatztihui:. and wherever it travels the road, there it goes stinking; with it the flies go swarming, they go along buzzing. (b.11 f.9 p.83). 31. inic mitoa ehcacohuatl: in ihcuac *otlatoca* moquetztehua,. it is called hecacoatl because when it travels it raises itself erect. (b.11 f.9 p.83). 32. zan iyo xopan in nemi, auh inic nemi, inic *otlatoca* zan ixtotomahua, ahuic motlatlaloa.. only in the summer does it go about, and when it goes about, as it goes on its way, it just wanders aimlessly; it keeps running here and there. (b.11 f.9 p.88). 33. auh inic *otlatoca*, zan motecpana, mohuipana, patlahuatihui: anozo zan cempanti.. and as they travel along their way, they go in good order, in procession, in a wide stream or only in single file. (b.11 f.9 p.90). 34. inic *otlatoca*, patlahuatihui:. when they follow their path, they go in a wide stream. (b.11 f.9 p.91). 35. auh inic nenemi, inic *otlatoca* mocuecuelpachotiuh, mococototztlalia, iuhquinma itla quitamachihua.. and as it travels, as it goes its way, it goes by doubling itself, by looping itself, as if measuring something. (b.11 f.10 p.97). 36. auh in quenman zan motecpana inic *otlatoca*.. and sometimes they just form a line as they travel along. (b.11 f.10 p.100). 37. motoca, mopixoa, camahua, ciahua, poxcahui, monelhuayotia, nelhuayohua, tlapani, tlacati, yacaomi, huallaxiponoa, huallalticpacquiza, achichilacachti, itzmiquiltia, ce iix quihualquetza mozcaltia, mana, motitihuana, achi quitoca, tetzahua, chicahuac, *otlatoca*, mantiuh, mozcallotia, moquillotia, mahuazhuayotia, momatia, momaxallotia, momamaxallotia, momamatia, mozcallotia, izcalloa, momiyahuayotia, miahuayoa,. it is planted, sown; it matures; it is wetted, moistened; it forms roots; it takes root, bursts, germinates, sprouts, pushes up, emerges at the surface, forms a shoot, sends out a shoot, sets a node, grows, develops, extends, continues a little, grows firm, strengthens, grows bigger, enlarges, puts on terminal growth; forms foliage, leaves, branches, forms a crotch; forms crotches; forms branches in different places; puts on terminal growth, forms terminal growth, puts on terminal buds, forms terminal buds. (b.11 f.11 p.113). 38. mohuilana, mohuihuilana, *otlatoca*, moyacatlaza, moquillotia, mexoyotia, exoyoa.. it creeps, constantly creeps, travels, sends out a shoot, forms foliage, produces a bean, forms a bean. (b.11 f.21 p.210). 39. yehuatl in zan mani atl, in amo *otlatoca*,. it is water which is just flat, which does not run. (b.11 f.24 p.250). 40. ye ic *otlatoca*,. already they followed the road. (b.12 f.5 p.77). 41. auh in ye iuhqui in ye olini in ye *otlatoca* in espanoles: niman ye ic hualtzatzi in yaotlachixque:. and when this was done, when the spaniards already moved, already followed the road, thereupon the spies shouted out; (b.12 f.5 p.78). otlatocac** 42. auh quitoa, in manel mochintin teteo omicque, za nel amo ic olin, amo huel ic *otlatocac* in teotl tonatiuh:. and they say that though all the gods died, even then the sun god could not move and follow his path. (b.7 f.1 p.8). otlatocat** 43. xiccaqui: ayac aquetzqui, ayac cuecuenotl, ayac cuecuech, anozo mitoa cuecuetz in *otlatocat*:. note that no brazen one, no vain one, no dissolute one, or as is said, shameless one hath become ruler. (b.6 f.9 p.109). 44. inic matlactli omei tlatoani mochiuh tetzcoco, yehuatl in axcan tlatoani don hernando pimentel in *otlatocat* achi cempoalxihuitl. the thirteenth who became ruler of texcoco [is] the present ruler, don hernando pimentel, who hath governed nearly twenty years. (b.8 f.1 p.11). otlatocatihui** 45. zan moch iuh *otlatocatihui*,. so all went traveling in their course. (b.4 f.6 p.57). 46. ipampa in zaiyo tonalpehuallotl, achitzitzin tlatolli ic toconnextia, inic mottaz, in izquipa huetzi cempoalpa, inic cecencalpan *otlatocatihui*: ihuan hualmotoquilitihui:. hence a few short words concerning only the beginning day sign, whereby we make manifest how it was to be considered all the twenty times it fell, as each group marched along its course and went following in order. (b.4 f.9 p.96). otlatocatinemi** 47. zan quiztinemi, zan *otlatocatinemi*, zan panotinemi, zaza ye hui in ye hui,. they only went about traveling, wandering; they went about crossing the streams; they only went here and there. (b.10 f.10 p.171). otlatocatiuh** 48. zan iuh *otlatocatiuh*, cecexiuhtica, zan ic nemamacotiuh, zan necacahuililotiuh, nepapatlalotiuh, nepapatlalo:. just so they went following, each year; just so there was the coming to share [functions], just the going leaving [them] to others, the going to exchange [them]: there was the exchange [of functions]. (b.3 f.1 p.8). 49. in iuhqui cecentetl semana ic mopoaya, matlatlaquilhuitl omeei motlalitiuh, inic *otlatocatiuh* ce xihuitl:. just as each week was reckoned, so each of the thirteen-day periods went taking its place until one year had passed. (b.4 f.1 p.1). 50. auh in ohualquiz tonatiuh, in ye otlatoca, in ye cahuiltitihuitze, in ye coyohuitihuitze yaomicque in tiacahuan, in ye *otlatocatiuh* in yehuatl tonatiuh: niman mocencahua in cihua, moyaochichihua concui in chimalli, in tlahuiztli:. and when the sun had emerged, when already it had advanced along its course, when those who had died in war, the brave warriors, already came gladdening it, came giving cries for it, when this sun had already advanced along its course, then the women arrayed themselves, armed themselves as for war, took the shields, the devices. (b.6 f.13 p.163). 51. in ihcuac omozalo omihuictica tlahuatzalli: niman ixco onmoquetza in tlazoihhuitl, motecpantiuh, mozalotiuh, omihuictica onmoquetztiuh, zan iuh *otlatocatiuh*, mopepechotiuh in ihhuitl commopechtitiuh in tlahuatzalli:. when the glue-hardened feathers had been fastened down with the bone blade, then on its surface were set the precious feathers, going placed, glued in order, set in position by means of the bone blade; just so proceeding, the covering continuing, the feathers proceeding to cover the glue-hardened ones. (b.9 f.7 p.96). otlatocaya** 52. auh in ihcuac *otlatocaya* quetzalcoatl quitlapichilitihuia.. and when quetzalcoatl followed the road, they went blowing flutes for him. (b.3 f.3 p.33). 53. auh inic *otlatocaya* moyaochichiuhtihuia:. and as they traveled the road, they went girt for war. (b.9 f.2 p.17). otlatocaz** 54. iuh mitoa, quilmach intla aca mocehuiz otlica: ayoc huel yaz, ayo huel mehuaz, ayoc huel *otlatocaz*:. it was so said and affirmed that if any of them rested by the road, he could no longer go, rise up, nor travel. (b.4 f.10 p.104). otlatocazque** 55. cuix onteixtin *otlatocazque*,. will they perchance both together follow the same path? (b.7 f.1 p.7). timotlatocatilia** 56. auh ca tehuatzin, nohuian *timotlatocatilia*: ihuan in ixquich in cualli yectli, motechpatzinco quiza,. and thou rulest everywhere; and all that is good, proper, issueth from thee. (b.1 f.4 p.67). tonotlatocaz** 57. quilhuia. izcatqui inic *tonotlatocaz*,. they said to him: "here is wherewith thou wilt travel." (b.3 f.3 p.43). totlatocaz** 58. auh inic tiaz, inic *totlatocaz*, inic otli ticnamiquiz: amo titoloz, amo no taquetzaz: ca anezcalicayotl, quitoznequi:. "and as thou art to go, as thou art to travel the road, as thou art to come upon the road, thou art not to bow thy head, nor art thou to raise thy head in pride; it meaneth ill-breeding." (b.6 f.8 p.100). 59. auh inic ontlamantli: timimatiz in ipan monehnemiliz, ihuian, yocoxca, matca, tlamach in tiaz, in *totlatocaz*, in tinenemiz:. "and second: thou art to be prudent in thy travels; peacefully, quietly, tranquilly, deliberately art thou to go, to take to the road, to travel. (b.6 f.10 p.121). xotlatoca** 60. auh cenca moyolic in xiauh, in *xotlatoca*.. and go, follow the road, with utmost tranquility. (b.6 f.8 p.100). From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Thu May 26 22:20:34 2005 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:20:34 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin Message-ID: Jose, I think you are right to point out that to write a language alphabetically inherently implies a certain level of linguistic self-consciousness. And, of course, Chimalpahin was producing written langauge. Nevertheless, in spite of the project of colonial grammarians, general Nahuatl linguistic practice did not really develop in any kind of dialogue with a metadiscourse on language such as grammar. So merely the act of writing it down does not necessarily automatically make the language conform to foreign grammatical categories. John Sullivan's project in Zacatecas has been grappling precisely with this issue trying to come up with organic ways to conceptualize the language in order to facilitate a Nahuatl linguistic self-reflexiveness that does not of necessity depend on Spanish or English categories and concepts (please correct me John if I am misrepresenting the nature of your project). One might argue that this situation also characterized medieval and early modern Spanish linguistic practice among most sectors of society. And frankly, I'm not sure to what extent my argument about the relationship between the rigidity of formal grammatical categories and alphabetic writing is or is not universally valid across languages and cultures. But there was a long tradition of alphabetically written Spanish that had developed in relation to linguistic metadiscourses that involved grammar. Eventhough the first Spanish grammar appeared rather late, the conceptualization of language was still very much influenced by Latin grammar. After all, grammar was part of the trivium. But one can't help but suspect that if Nahuatl had pursued the phonographic option, of which they were clearly aware, and had developed a linguistic metadiscourse in dialogic relation to it, then their linguistic science may have looked very different from ours. In other words, perhaps Nahuatl has a different linguistic ontology regardless of whether or not you write it alphabetically. Of course, the materiality from which consciousness and language spring means that there will always be enough in common that we can certainly adapt our own linguistic metadiscourse (in a sense we have no other choice) to any language and in many cases it adapts really well, but don't you often feel that in some cases it just isn't always quite adequate? With regard to the possibility of the pun, actually, I just got so wrapped up in the morphological analysis that I forgot about that part of your message. First, I don't think we can read anything into the fact that "cecenteotlatoca" doesn't have a reflexive "mo" while the previous words do. The earlier "otlatoca" isn't reflexive either. I think there are semantic and grammatical reasons for this. The reason it does not have a "mo" is because they are not following themselves but rather their respective paths or each other as you suggest. The words malacachoa and panahuia are transitive verbs requiring objects, so they kind of have to use the reflexive "mo". He could have used an intransitive verb form like malacachihui to avoid using the reflexive object "mo", but then you wouldn't get the same sense of agency on the part of the celestial bodies or planes or whatever it is he is talking about, which is consistent with a Nahuatl cosmology that ascribes animacy to these kinds of things as indicated by the plural ending "me" on ilhuicame. The separation between the sequence of three fairly synonymous expressions from the final phrase would seem to be consistent with the attempt to sum it all up with the final phrase, which is also rather interesting. The "ynic izqui tlanepanoltitimani ilhuicame" means literally something like "they all lie spread out [mani] stacked up [nepanolli] in the heavens in that manner [ynic]". The nepanolli that is embedded there has the sense of things crossed, intersected, or piled up on top of one another. It is derived from the verb panoa which means "to cross." So, the word may convey both the notion of crossing in the sense of movement but also crossing in the sense of an overlapping or piling up. which is another reason why it seemed like it could have corresponded to his description of the European cosmology of concentric heavens. With regard to the question about the pun on "cecenteotlatoca", I don't think there is any phonological reason why you couldn't read it as a pun. The thing about puns, as you know, is that they don't have to be based on perfect homophony. However, I don't know how you could determine if it was actually intended to be a pun or if they ever thought of it in that way, by which I assume you mean that it was intended to be read as being polysemic. The fact that there was a tradition of pictographic punning certainly suggests that this kind of verbal punning went on. Is there any other indication in the text that calls attention to, or indicates such verbal puns in a more self-conscious way? Galen Jos? Rabasa wrote: > Galen, > > Thanks for this most thorough explanation of the morphology of the > terms. I appreciate your indication about the limits of such gramatical > catgeories as adjetives, nouns and adverbs, and your underscoring that > oral speech has a more flexible and nebulous ontology that is not > subject to grammaticalization. But I wonder to what extent we speak of > Chimalpahin as someone who is not at least in this particular passage > merely reporting oral speech but developing a self-conscious written > Nahuatl. > > As you point out the otlatoca is attested by Molina, and figures earlier > in the passage. I cannot answer the question you pose as to the passage > from -tli in otli to -tla- in otlatoca. But perhaps someone else can say > something about it. Your silence regarding the possible pun suggests > that morphologically it makes no sense to derive cecen.teotl.tlatoa.ca, > "each one by god talk." Is this correct or does it not make sense > because of the context, but couldn't it be a parenthetical remark? I > know this is not the simplest of explanations; given the insistence on > the repetition of movement in "momamallacachotihui" (como se van > girando), mpopapanahuitihui (como se van sobrepasando), it would make > more sense to speak of cecenteotlatoca (como siguen unos a otros), but > note that the reflexive has been dropped and that a coma separates this > sequence from Ynic yzqui tlanepanoltitimani yluicame (como todos estan > juntos en el cielo). In short, if the the alternate morphological > analysis is correct, there could be a pun ?no? If not what phonological > reason could be given to exclude the possibility. > > Jose > >> Jose, >> Rikke Marie beat me to the answer, and I think the translation is >> certainly correct, but I would add a couple of things and a question for >> Rikke Marie or anybody else. >> First, it is just interesting to note that Nahuat texts often make our >> job a lot easier, because as in the case you cite Nahuatl discoruse has >> a tendency to express the same idea repeatedly using a variety of >> different words. Such synonymous expressions are not always exactly the >> same, which helps give you a more complete picture of what is being >> conveyed. Nevertheless, when they provide a series of more or less >> synonymous expressions, it makes it easier to figure out any given one >> of them that may not be as morphologically transparent as the rest. >> With regard to the specific phrase you mention, it would seem to be >> clear that the "o" is from "ohtli" or "otli" meaning "road" or "path", >> and that otlatoca means to follow a path or a road. This is well >> attested. But I'm curious about the "tla" in this construction. Is it >> merely a transformation of the absolutive suffix "tli" in order to avoid >> a short word? Are there a lot of examples of this kind of thing? Or is >> there another explanation? Of course, the first thing that comes to mind >> is a kind of fossilized non-specific object pronoun (which is evident in >> some other verbs), but I really don't know, especially given the fact >> that it is clear that "toca" does not always appear with this object >> pronoun. So it certainly isn't always fossilized. I know this doesn't >> really pose a problem for translation, because "otlatoca" is well >> attested in other contexts, including the instance just a few words >> earlier in this same text. So this is just a question to satisfy the >> morphological rigor that Joe instilled me :-). >> With regard to "cecente[tl]", part of the problem is that to classify >> Nahuatl words as nouns, ajectives, and verbs is sometimes misleading. >> The point is that self-conscious grammar enters into a dialogic >> relationship with linguistic practice in ways that tend to codify >> language in clear cut ways that do not necessarily reflect the more >> flexible and nebulous linguistic ontology of unfettered oral speech that >> has not been subject to a process of self-conscious grammaticalization. >> So, although in some cases "cecente-" may seem to function as what we >> call an ajective, as Rikki Marie points out technically it is a noun >> because it has that noun root 'te' from 'tetl', and nouns (normally >> defined in Nahuatl as words that take absolutive suffixes) can be >> imbedded in verbs to function as either objects or adverbs as defined by >> modern grammatical categories. With the duplication of the "ce", the >> "cecente" might be rendered as "each one." The plural "ilhuicame" at the >> end seems to suggest that it is talking about celestial planes. (Is he >> talking here perhaps about the European model of concentric heavens?) So >> it seems to me that the phrase "cecenteotlatoca" could be understood as >> saying literally "They path-followed in an each-one like way" which >> would translate more eloquently in English as "Each one followed its >> path" or maybe even better "They followed their respective paths." >> Galen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Rikke Marie Olsen wrote: >> >>> Dear Jose >>> >>> About cecenteotlatoca. I would analyze it c?-cen-te-?-tla-toca. I >>> think the >>> first c? is distributive. Centetl means simply one. ? is the root for >>> road. >>> Tla is the absolutive suffix, which is still attached because >>> nahauspeakers >>> dislike short words. Toca is the verb and means follow. All in all >>> You have >>> an incorporated noun (or two if You count centetl, which is actually a >>> numeral, but acts like a noun here because of tetl). >>> I would translate it: they follow different paths or routes. I haven't >>> looked at the rest of the sentence, so should probably be ajusted a bit. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Rikke Marie Olsen, >>> Student at the Departement of Native American Language and Culture, >>> University of Copenhagen. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Nahua language and culture discussion >>> [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] >>> On Behalf Of Jos? Rabasa >>> Sent: 26. maj 2005 04:11 >>> To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU >>> Subject: Chimalpahin >>> >>> Dear Listeros: >>> >>> A group of us in the Bay Area have a Nahuatl workshop in which we >>> have been reading Chimalpahin's Diario. We found the following >>> passage a bit difficult to sort out. It comes from that section in >>> which Chimalpahin compares Nahuatl and European language on eclipses. >>> The passage reads: >>> >>> "ynic otlatoca ynic momamallacachotihui ynic mopapanahuitihui ynic >>> cecenteotlatoca, ynic yzqui tlanepanoltitimani ylhuicame" (Rafael >>> Tena's edition p. 228). >>> >>> We are particularly undecided on how to read cecenteotlatoca. >>> Because of the earlier otlatoca (avanzar, andar) we thought that it >>> could be a combination of cecentetl and otlatoca but cecentl as an >>> adjetive could not modify a verb. The other option would be to read >>> cecen and teotlatoca (teotl.tlatoa.ca), which would translate as >>> "each one is god talk." This gets particularly heady given that the >>> European talk on the planets would amount to theology rather than >>> science, etc. etc., etc. Is this a pun? Any suggestions? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jose Rabasa >> > > From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Thu May 26 22:34:42 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 00:34:42 +0200 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <1117145860.42964b04be43c@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Dear Joe and Galen I belive my teacher Una Canger told me that the -tla in ?tla actually is the pure form of the absolutive suffix. The -a- is normally not strong enough to hold and usually transforms to an -i-. But in this particular incorporation of ?tli into ?-tla-toca, the -a- can hold its position. I think Joe is right about some forms being lexicalized to always appear with the inanimate object of -tla. But in this case that would give you two objects - first the incorporated root of ?- and second the inanimate object og -tla-. But -toca only takes one object...?! Rikke Marie -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of campbel at INDIANA.EDU Sent: 27. maj 2005 00:18 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Chimalpahin Quoting Jos? Rabasa : > As you point out the otlatoca is attested by > Molina, and figures earlier in the passage. I > cannot answer the question you pose as to the > passage from -tli in otli to -tla- in otlatoca. > Tocayo, I collected some examples of "ohtlatoca" last night and I think I've cleaned out (most of) the irrelevant ones. Galen's commentary has covered beyond what I could have said when onicochmic. I just wanted to add a comment to the problem about the mysterious "tla". The active morphology of Nahuatl involves forms such as the following: ni-c-toca I follow him ni-tla-toca I follow something And, as in the case with other verbs, "tla-" sometimes fuses to form a new intransitive verb "tlatoca" (to follow or continue along). The noun stem "oh-" is then prefixed adverbially. "Tla-" fusion is sometimes recognizable by the placement of those adverbial nouns -- the position inside the adverbial noun (close to the verb) is an indication of fusion, just as is the reduplication of the "tla-", since objects don't reduplicate, but something fused and made into an integral part of the verb stem will. Saludos, Joe huallotlatocatiaque** 1. inic matlactli capitulo: oncan mitoa in quenin espa?oles zan ihuian, huallalhuaccaquizque, *huallotlatocatiaque* ihuan in quenin moteuczoma quicauh in huei tecpan,. tenth chapter, in which it is told how quite slowly the spaniards came forth to dry land, [how] they followed along the road, and how moctezuma left the great palace; (b.12 f.2 p.27). hualotlatoca** 2. achtopa hualquiza in eztli, ic neci ca ye *hualotlatoca*, ye quihualtopehua in piltzintli:. first the blood comes out, which shows that the baby is about to follow, about to be forced out. (b.11 f.18 p.180). 3. auh in ohuallalhuacaquizque yequene ic huitze: in ye hualolinizque, in ye hualolini, in ye *hualotlatoca*, cenca necuitlahuiloque, mahuizmachoque,. and when the spaniards came forth to dry land, [when] finally they so came, when already they were to move, when already they moved, when already they followed the road, they were well cared for, they were held in esteem. (b.12 f.2 p.23). hualotlatocaque** 4. zan temac in huallatiaque, in *hualotlatocaque*,. it was completely in [the emissaries'] hands that they went along, that they followed the road along. (b.12 f.2 p.23). hualotlatocaya** 5. auh quin oncan maco: in inneoquichitol in apozonaltentetl, ihuan quetzalcoyolnacochtli, quetzalichayatl coxoli, ehcacehuaztli: zacuantica tlatzimpacholli, xahuactopilli, toztlapilollo, cuitlacochio, in ipan *hualotlatocaya*, inic hualahcia in nican mexico.. and then [and] there they were given their symbols of conquest--the amber lip plugs, and the green, shell-shaped ear pendants; the netted maguey fiber capes; the crested guan feather fans covered with troupial feathers at the bottom; the black staves with tassels of curve-billed thrasher feathers, with which they took the road to arrive here in mexico. (b.9 f.2 p.22). 6. auh inic hualmocuepaya anahuac: inic *hualotlatocaya*, inic hualhuia, ye oticteneuhque,. and how they returned from anauac, how they followed the roads, how they came back, we have already told. (b.9 f.3 p.31). imotlatocaya** 7. quitlaquentiaya amatica: in intopil, imotlatopil, in inenemia, in *imotlatocaya*,. they arrayed in paper their staves, their stout traveling staves with which they journeyed, with which they traveled. (b.1 f.2 p.41). iotlatocaya** 8. huellaixnextia, inic quitemoa, icochca, ineuhca, in icemilhuitiaya, in *iotlatocaya*, in inenca, in nencayotl, in nemoani, in nemoaloni, in otlatoconi,. he labored industriously to gain sustenance, his daily bread his trail rations, his livelihood, his maintenance, the source of life, the means of living, and provisions for traveling. (b.4 f.12 p.125). motlatocaya** 9. auh in nel otlatlan in motacatzin, in *motlatocaya*:. for verily thy provisions have ended--that with which one hath traveled. (b.4 f.6 p.62). ohuallotlatocac** 10. inic cecencalpan *ohuallotlatocac*, in ye mochi tonalli omoteneuh, in ipan otlatlatoloc, otlatlatolloac.. [so] each group proceeded on its way; all the day signs mentioned, of which there hath been discourse and discussion. (b.4 f.12 p.132). ohualotlatocatia** 11. inic inca *ohualotlatocatia*, inic ohualmacantia in inteucyo, in intlatocayo. thus, through them, their dignity, their patrimony, advanced [and] spread. (b.9 f.3 p.32). onotlatocaz** 12. auh quen *onotlatocaz*. but how will he go on his way? (b.2 f.13 p.216). otlatoca** 13. in yehuantin tlaamahuia, ihcuac pehua, in ihcuac ompehua, *otlatoca* painal.. those who rolled up the paper began at the time that paynal had begun to follow his path. (b.2 f.9 p.145). 14. auh in ye iuhqui, niman ye ic ompehua niman ye ic *otlatoca*,. and when this was done, thereupon he departed, thereupon he followed the road. (b.3 f.3 p.33). 15. nican za cencamatica, cententica onmonextia, in quenin cenca ye miyecpa omito, in iuhqui inenezca, itoloca, itenehualoca, itlatollo, itlatlatollo: in quenami cecemilhuitl tonalli ipan mochihua, in iuh tecpantihui, ic *otlatoca*: in oncan cualtitiuh, ihuan in amo cualli, in amo yeccan,. here, in only a word, a statement, is made plain, as hath many times been told, the manner of its significance, its account, exposition, history, and discussion; and in what manner the sign of each day came to pass, how they proceeded in order, so following along; those which came good; and the evil, of unfavorable time. (b.4 f.12 p.129). 16. auh in ohualquiz tonatiuh, in ye *otlatoca*, in ye cahuiltitihuitze, in ye coyohuitihuitze yaomicque in tiacahuan, in ye otlatocatiuh in yehuatl tonatiuh: niman mocencahua in cihua, moyaochichihua concui in chimalli, in tlahuiztli:. and when the sun had emerged, when already it had advanced along its course, when those who had died in war, the brave warriors, already came gladdening it, came giving cries for it, when this sun had already advanced along its course, then the women arrayed themselves, armed themselves as for war, took the shields, the devices. (b.6 f.13 p.163). 17. auh in ye iuhqui: in ihcuac ye omomanaco onteixtin, ye no cuele ahuel olini, *otlatoca*,. and when this was done, when both appeared [over the earth] together, they could, on the other hand, not move nor follow their paths. (b.7 f.1 p.7). 18. quin yehuatl huel colini, niman ye ic *otlatoca*.. at once he could move him, who thereupon went on his way. (b.7 f.1 p.8). 19. auh in ihcuac, ye *otlatoca*, zan ompa ommocauh in metztli:. and when he had already followed his course, only the moon remained there. (b.7 f.1 p.8). 20. ihuiyan, yocoxca, in *otlatoca*.. they followed the road slowly and carefully. (b.8 f.3 p.52). 21. auh inic nenemi, amo cemilhuitl: in *otlatoca*: zan yoaltica.. and so they journeyed not by day when they traveled, but by night. (b.9 f.2 p.18). 22. auh in ye *otlatoca*, in ye yauh painalton, niman ye ic quinhuica in tlatlaaltiltin, oncan quihualnamiquia in tlaamahuiaya, in inacaztlan cohuatlan, oncan momanaya in teoithualco.. and as he was already following the road, as painalton already went, thereupon they conducted the bathed slaves to the outskirts of [the calpulli of] coatlan, where they came upon the place of encirclement situated there at the temple courtyard. (b.9 f.5 p.64). 23. auh in axcan, macihui in aocmo cenca monequi tlahuiztli: ca zan ye iuh *otlatoca*, zan ye iuh motocatiuh in tlachihualli, in tlachichihualiztli:. but today, although devices are no longer much required, in the same way the making, the ornamenting, of articles proceed; they advance. (b.9 f.7 p.92). 24. za za ye yauh in ye yauh, ca zan ye *otlatoca*,. he goes to no purpose when he goes; he travels the road to no purpose. (b.10 f.4 p.60). 25. auh in ihcuac canapa hui, in *otlatoca*, za ce in teyacana, zan motecpana, za cempanti, ompa onmotztihui in tezcac in intzintempan mamantiuh:. and when they went somewhere, as they made their way, following a single leader, in order, in line, there they went looking into the mirror which [the one ahead] went bearing in the middle of his back. (b.10 f.10 p.173). 26. auh inic *otlatoca*, inic nenemi amo huel yauh in tlalnemiuhyan: hueli patlania in zacatl, in tlacotl, in tlein huapahuac.. and thus it advances, thus it travels: it cannot go on bare ground; it can fly on grass, on shrubs, on anything rough. (b.11 f.8 p.76). 27. inic nenemi zan motitihuana, inic *otlatoca* zan necoc motlaloa.. to travel, it just stretches itself out; to go along its way, it just runs on both ends. (b.11 f.8 p.79). 28. in ihcuac omacic, za onoc acampa *otlatoca*:. when mature, it only lies somewhere, where they travel the road. (b.11 f.8 p.79). 29. inic *otlatoca* mopetzcoa, auh in quenman zan momimiloa iuhquinma metlapilli:. as it travels, it slithers, and sometimes it only rolls like a mano. (b.11 f.8 p.82). 30. auh in campa *otlatoca* ompa ihyaxtiuh, cololhuitihui in zayolti, quicahuatztihui:. and wherever it travels the road, there it goes stinking; with it the flies go swarming, they go along buzzing. (b.11 f.9 p.83). 31. inic mitoa ehcacohuatl: in ihcuac *otlatoca* moquetztehua,. it is called hecacoatl because when it travels it raises itself erect. (b.11 f.9 p.83). 32. zan iyo xopan in nemi, auh inic nemi, inic *otlatoca* zan ixtotomahua, ahuic motlatlaloa.. only in the summer does it go about, and when it goes about, as it goes on its way, it just wanders aimlessly; it keeps running here and there. (b.11 f.9 p.88). 33. auh inic *otlatoca*, zan motecpana, mohuipana, patlahuatihui: anozo zan cempanti.. and as they travel along their way, they go in good order, in procession, in a wide stream or only in single file. (b.11 f.9 p.90). 34. inic *otlatoca*, patlahuatihui:. when they follow their path, they go in a wide stream. (b.11 f.9 p.91). 35. auh inic nenemi, inic *otlatoca* mocuecuelpachotiuh, mococototztlalia, iuhquinma itla quitamachihua.. and as it travels, as it goes its way, it goes by doubling itself, by looping itself, as if measuring something. (b.11 f.10 p.97). 36. auh in quenman zan motecpana inic *otlatoca*.. and sometimes they just form a line as they travel along. (b.11 f.10 p.100). 37. motoca, mopixoa, camahua, ciahua, poxcahui, monelhuayotia, nelhuayohua, tlapani, tlacati, yacaomi, huallaxiponoa, huallalticpacquiza, achichilacachti, itzmiquiltia, ce iix quihualquetza mozcaltia, mana, motitihuana, achi quitoca, tetzahua, chicahuac, *otlatoca*, mantiuh, mozcallotia, moquillotia, mahuazhuayotia, momatia, momaxallotia, momamaxallotia, momamatia, mozcallotia, izcalloa, momiyahuayotia, miahuayoa,. it is planted, sown; it matures; it is wetted, moistened; it forms roots; it takes root, bursts, germinates, sprouts, pushes up, emerges at the surface, forms a shoot, sends out a shoot, sets a node, grows, develops, extends, continues a little, grows firm, strengthens, grows bigger, enlarges, puts on terminal growth; forms foliage, leaves, branches, forms a crotch; forms crotches; forms branches in different places; puts on terminal growth, forms terminal growth, puts on terminal buds, forms terminal buds. (b.11 f.11 p.113). 38. mohuilana, mohuihuilana, *otlatoca*, moyacatlaza, moquillotia, mexoyotia, exoyoa.. it creeps, constantly creeps, travels, sends out a shoot, forms foliage, produces a bean, forms a bean. (b.11 f.21 p.210). 39. yehuatl in zan mani atl, in amo *otlatoca*,. it is water which is just flat, which does not run. (b.11 f.24 p.250). 40. ye ic *otlatoca*,. already they followed the road. (b.12 f.5 p.77). 41. auh in ye iuhqui in ye olini in ye *otlatoca* in espanoles: niman ye ic hualtzatzi in yaotlachixque:. and when this was done, when the spaniards already moved, already followed the road, thereupon the spies shouted out; (b.12 f.5 p.78). otlatocac** 42. auh quitoa, in manel mochintin teteo omicque, za nel amo ic olin, amo huel ic *otlatocac* in teotl tonatiuh:. and they say that though all the gods died, even then the sun god could not move and follow his path. (b.7 f.1 p.8). otlatocat** 43. xiccaqui: ayac aquetzqui, ayac cuecuenotl, ayac cuecuech, anozo mitoa cuecuetz in *otlatocat*:. note that no brazen one, no vain one, no dissolute one, or as is said, shameless one hath become ruler. (b.6 f.9 p.109). 44. inic matlactli omei tlatoani mochiuh tetzcoco, yehuatl in axcan tlatoani don hernando pimentel in *otlatocat* achi cempoalxihuitl. the thirteenth who became ruler of texcoco [is] the present ruler, don hernando pimentel, who hath governed nearly twenty years. (b.8 f.1 p.11). otlatocatihui** 45. zan moch iuh *otlatocatihui*,. so all went traveling in their course. (b.4 f.6 p.57). 46. ipampa in zaiyo tonalpehuallotl, achitzitzin tlatolli ic toconnextia, inic mottaz, in izquipa huetzi cempoalpa, inic cecencalpan *otlatocatihui*: ihuan hualmotoquilitihui:. hence a few short words concerning only the beginning day sign, whereby we make manifest how it was to be considered all the twenty times it fell, as each group marched along its course and went following in order. (b.4 f.9 p.96). otlatocatinemi** 47. zan quiztinemi, zan *otlatocatinemi*, zan panotinemi, zaza ye hui in ye hui,. they only went about traveling, wandering; they went about crossing the streams; they only went here and there. (b.10 f.10 p.171). otlatocatiuh** 48. zan iuh *otlatocatiuh*, cecexiuhtica, zan ic nemamacotiuh, zan necacahuililotiuh, nepapatlalotiuh, nepapatlalo:. just so they went following, each year; just so there was the coming to share [functions], just the going leaving [them] to others, the going to exchange [them]: there was the exchange [of functions]. (b.3 f.1 p.8). 49. in iuhqui cecentetl semana ic mopoaya, matlatlaquilhuitl omeei motlalitiuh, inic *otlatocatiuh* ce xihuitl:. just as each week was reckoned, so each of the thirteen-day periods went taking its place until one year had passed. (b.4 f.1 p.1). 50. auh in ohualquiz tonatiuh, in ye otlatoca, in ye cahuiltitihuitze, in ye coyohuitihuitze yaomicque in tiacahuan, in ye *otlatocatiuh* in yehuatl tonatiuh: niman mocencahua in cihua, moyaochichihua concui in chimalli, in tlahuiztli:. and when the sun had emerged, when already it had advanced along its course, when those who had died in war, the brave warriors, already came gladdening it, came giving cries for it, when this sun had already advanced along its course, then the women arrayed themselves, armed themselves as for war, took the shields, the devices. (b.6 f.13 p.163). 51. in ihcuac omozalo omihuictica tlahuatzalli: niman ixco onmoquetza in tlazoihhuitl, motecpantiuh, mozalotiuh, omihuictica onmoquetztiuh, zan iuh *otlatocatiuh*, mopepechotiuh in ihhuitl commopechtitiuh in tlahuatzalli:. when the glue-hardened feathers had been fastened down with the bone blade, then on its surface were set the precious feathers, going placed, glued in order, set in position by means of the bone blade; just so proceeding, the covering continuing, the feathers proceeding to cover the glue-hardened ones. (b.9 f.7 p.96). otlatocaya** 52. auh in ihcuac *otlatocaya* quetzalcoatl quitlapichilitihuia.. and when quetzalcoatl followed the road, they went blowing flutes for him. (b.3 f.3 p.33). 53. auh inic *otlatocaya* moyaochichiuhtihuia:. and as they traveled the road, they went girt for war. (b.9 f.2 p.17). otlatocaz** 54. iuh mitoa, quilmach intla aca mocehuiz otlica: ayoc huel yaz, ayo huel mehuaz, ayoc huel *otlatocaz*:. it was so said and affirmed that if any of them rested by the road, he could no longer go, rise up, nor travel. (b.4 f.10 p.104). otlatocazque** 55. cuix onteixtin *otlatocazque*,. will they perchance both together follow the same path? (b.7 f.1 p.7). timotlatocatilia** 56. auh ca tehuatzin, nohuian *timotlatocatilia*: ihuan in ixquich in cualli yectli, motechpatzinco quiza,. and thou rulest everywhere; and all that is good, proper, issueth from thee. (b.1 f.4 p.67). tonotlatocaz** 57. quilhuia. izcatqui inic *tonotlatocaz*,. they said to him: "here is wherewith thou wilt travel." (b.3 f.3 p.43). totlatocaz** 58. auh inic tiaz, inic *totlatocaz*, inic otli ticnamiquiz: amo titoloz, amo no taquetzaz: ca anezcalicayotl, quitoznequi:. "and as thou art to go, as thou art to travel the road, as thou art to come upon the road, thou art not to bow thy head, nor art thou to raise thy head in pride; it meaneth ill-breeding." (b.6 f.8 p.100). 59. auh inic ontlamantli: timimatiz in ipan monehnemiliz, ihuian, yocoxca, matca, tlamach in tiaz, in *totlatocaz*, in tinenemiz:. "and second: thou art to be prudent in thy travels; peacefully, quietly, tranquilly, deliberately art thou to go, to take to the road, to travel. (b.6 f.10 p.121). xotlatoca** 60. auh cenca moyolic in xiauh, in *xotlatoca*.. and go, follow the road, with utmost tranquility. (b.6 f.8 p.100). From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Thu May 26 23:03:25 2005 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 19:03:25 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin Message-ID: About puns, I wonder if another thing to consider is that puns and rebuses were a potential source of confusion to Europeans as soon as they started to look at picture writing. It seems as though there might have been more discussion about puns than about grammar at least at the start. In other words maybe people were asking "does this picture mean the same thing as that one" before they started asking "is that a noun or a verb"? Susan Original Message: ----------------- From: Jos? Rabasa jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:11:02 -0700 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Chimalpahin Dear Listeros: A group of us in the Bay Area have a Nahuatl workshop in which we have been reading Chimalpahin's Diario. We found the following passage a bit difficult to sort out. It comes from that section in which Chimalpahin compares Nahuatl and European language on eclipses. The passage reads: "ynic otlatoca ynic momamallacachotihui ynic mopapanahuitihui ynic cecenteotlatoca, ynic yzqui tlanepanoltitimani ylhuicame" (Rafael Tena's edition p. 228). We are particularly undecided on how to read cecenteotlatoca. Because of the earlier otlatoca (avanzar, andar) we thought that it could be a combination of cecentetl and otlatoca but cecentl as an adjetive could not modify a verb. The other option would be to read cecen and teotlatoca (teotl.tlatoa.ca), which would translate as "each one is god talk." This gets particularly heady given that the European talk on the planets would amount to theology rather than science, etc. etc., etc. Is this a pun? Any suggestions? Thanks, Jose Rabasa -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Thu May 26 23:43:52 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:43:52 -0500 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <42964BB2.9030100@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: It occurred to me that since FUSION causes problems -- notably, a certain amount of opacity regarding the morphological structure of words, it might be helpful to send a list. After all, a thousand examples are worth one explanation! In the list below, fused "tla-"s are detached for the sake of grouping the words according to similar stems (and therefore semantically). One should perform a visual graft in order to appreciate the word structure. Saludos, Joe FUSION*** ai =nitlatla. hazer amenudo algo assi. . 71m1-12 axtli =tlatla. cauada tierra; cauada heredad; labrada tierra. . 71m1-5 cahuallotepoztlatlatquitl. herramental. . 71m1-13 cali tlatlatquitl. prouision de casa. . 71m1-17 cennepanolli =tla. mesturada cosa. . 71m1-15 chicotlatlatoa =ni. desuariar el enfermo. . 71m1-8 chihua =nitlatla. hazer amenudo algo assi. . 71m1-12 cochtlapiqui =mo. el que finge que esta durmiendo. . 71m2-10 cochtlapiquiani =mo. el que finge que esta durmiendo. . 71m2-10 cua , tlatla-. each one of them eats; each one eats; they eat repeatedly. . b.12 f.5 cuacualiztli =tlatla. pasto el acto de pacer. . 71m1-16 cuicuilia =nitlatla. mondar algo como garuan?os o arroz. . 71m1-15 cuicuilicayotl =tlatla. limpiaduras. . 71m1-14 cuicuililiztli =tlatla. mondaduras desta manera. . 71m1-15 cuililli =tlatla. mondada cosa assi. . 71m1-15 cuilontiani =te. puto que haze. . 55m-16 cuiltiani =tetlatla. prestador assi. . 71m1-17 cuiltilli =tetlatla. prestado enesta manera. . 71m1-17 ehuatlapitza =n. follar. . 71m1-11 huallaaquia =ni. pujar en almoneda. . 71m1-18 huallaaquiliztli. puja en almoneda. . 71m1-18 huampoyotl =te [scribal error: ??poss--abs evidence for fusion: 55m]. compa?ia assi. . 55m-3 huecauhtica otlatocani. peregrino mucho tiempo. . 55m-15 huellacatlacua. it eats like a human being. . b.11 f.2 huellamati =ani. padecer. . 55m-15 huetzquiti =tetlatla. iuglar. . 71m1-13 ichtacatlacaqui =n. escuchar de secreto. . 71m1-10 ichtacatlacaquiliztli. assechan?a tal. . 55m-1 ichtacatlacua =n. comer por los rincones. . 71m1-5 icuania =nitlatla. mouer amenudo. . 71m1-15 ihua =nitlatla. embiar a diuersas partes mensajeros. . 71m1-9 ihualtin =tlatla. embiados desta manera. . 71m1-9 ilcahuani =tlatla. desacordado. . 55m-5 ilhuitlacaquitia =nite. echar la fiesta. . 71m1-9 ilhuitlalhuia =nite. echar la fiesta. . 71m1-9 ilnamiqui =nitlatla. pensar muchas vezes. . 71m1-17 ilnamiquiliztli =tlatla. pensamiento assi. . 71m1-17 itlania =ninotlatla. mendigar el pobre. . 55m-13 itlanili =tetlatla. pedigue?o. . 71m1-17 itlaniliani =tetlatla. pedigue?o. . 71m1-17 [i]tta , tlatla-. they look on. . b.2 f.8 itta =nitetlatla. mirar lo que los otros hazen. . 71m1-15 ittilia =ninotlatla. mirarse las partes vergon?asas. . 71m1-15 itzomia =nitlatla. bufar el gato o cosa semenjante. . 55m-2 itzomia =tlatla. bufar el ga From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri May 27 00:01:12 2005 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 19:01:12 -0500 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <1117151032.42965f387297a@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Joe, for the "one picture, thousand words". Yes, Rikke, the tl(a) of your "otla" is not the same tl as in ohtli 'road'. As Joe explailned, your "o-" is the "road," and it modifies the following verb, tlatoca, i.e., "o-" tells what kind of following is going on: "roadly- following". There's no grammatical or phonological basis for ohtli going to ohtla and then hooking up with toca. Best, Michael Quoting campbel at indiana.edu: > It occurred to me that since FUSION causes problems -- notably, a certain > amount of opacity regarding the morphological structure of words, it might > be > helpful to send a list. After all, a thousand examples are worth one > explanation! > > In the list below, fused "tla-"s are detached for the sake of grouping > the > words according to similar stems (and therefore semantically). One should > perform a visual graft in order to appreciate the word structure. > > Saludos, > > Joe > > > > FUSION*** > > ai =nitlatla. hazer amenudo algo assi. . > 71m1-12 > axtli =tlatla. cauada tierra; cauada heredad; labrada tierra. p51-a:yi-l2 +fusion>. 71m1-5 > cahuallotepoztlatlatquitl. herramental. itqui-l2 +fusion>. 71m1-13 > cali tlatlatquitl. prouision de casa. +l.for.ll +fusion>. 71m1-17 > cennepanolli =tla. mesturada cosa. +fusion>. 71m1-15 > chicotlatlatoa =ni. desuariar el enfermo. +fusion>. 71m1-8 > chihua =nitlatla. hazer amenudo algo assi. +fusion>. 71m1-12 > cochtlapiqui =mo. el que finge que esta durmiendo. pi:qui1 +fusion>. 71m2-10 > cochtlapiquiani =mo. el que finge que esta durmiendo. p51-pi:qui1-caus-ni1 +fusion>. 71m2-10 > cua , tlatla-. each one of them eats; each one eats; they eat > repeatedly. . b.12 f.5 > cuacualiztli =tlatla. pasto el acto de pacer. +fusion>. 71m1-16 > cuicuilia =nitlatla. mondar algo como garuan?os o arroz. p51-dupl-cui-ben +fusion>. 71m1-15 > cuicuilicayotl =tlatla. limpiaduras. yo:tl1 +fusion>. 71m1-14 > cuicuililiztli =tlatla. mondaduras desta manera. ben-liz +fusion>. 71m1-15 > cuililli =tlatla. mondada cosa assi. . > 71m1-15 > cuilontiani =te. puto que haze. +fusion>. 55m-16 > cuiltiani =tetlatla. prestador assi. +fusion>. 71m1-17 > cuiltilli =tetlatla. prestado enesta manera. l1 +fusion>. 71m1-17 > ehuatlapitza =n. follar. . 71m1-11 > huallaaquia =ni. pujar en almoneda. +fusion>. 71m1-18 > huallaaquiliztli. puja en almoneda. +fusion>. 71m1-18 > huampoyotl =te [scribal error: ??poss--abs evidence for fusion: 55m]. > compa?ia assi. . 55m-3 > huecauhtica otlatocani. peregrino mucho tiempo. ca:1a ohtli-p51-toca2-ni1 +fusion aux11a>. 55m-15 > huellacatlacua. it eats like a human being. +fusion>. b.11 f.2 > huellamati =ani. padecer. . 55m-15 > huetzquiti =tetlatla. iuglar. +fusion>. 71m1-13 > ichtacatlacaqui =n. escuchar de secreto. +fusion>. 71m1-10 > ichtacatlacaquiliztli. assechan?a tal. +fusion>. 55m-1 > ichtacatlacua =n. comer por los rincones. +fusion>. 71m1-5 > icuania =nitlatla. mouer amenudo. . > 71m1-15 > ihua =nitlatla. embiar a diuersas partes mensajeros. ihua: +fusion>. 71m1-9 > ihualtin =tlatla. embiados desta manera. +fusion>. 71m1-9 > ilcahuani =tlatla. desacordado. . > 55m-5 > ilhuitlacaquitia =nite. echar la fiesta. caus02 +fusion>. 71m1-9 > ilhuitlalhuia =nite. echar la fiesta. +fusion>. 71m1-9 > ilnamiqui =nitlatla. pensar muchas vezes. +fusion>. 71m1-17 > ilnamiquiliztli =tlatla. pensamiento assi. liz +fusion>. 71m1-17 > itlania =ninotlatla. mendigar el pobre. ben +fusion>. 55m-13 > itlanili =tetlatla. pedigue?o. +fusion>. 71m1-17 > itlaniliani =tetlatla. pedigue?o. +fusion>. 71m1-17 > [i]tta , tlatla-. they look on. . b.2 f.8 > itta =nitetlatla. mirar lo que los otros hazen. itta +fusion>. 71m1-15 > ittilia =ninotlatla. mirarse las partes vergon?asas. p51-itta-ben +fusion>. 71m1-15 > itzomia =nitlatla. bufar el gato o cosa semenjante. ihtzo:mia: +fusion>. 55m-2 > itzomia =tlatla. bufar el ga > From h.kammler at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Thu May 26 23:50:44 2005 From: h.kammler at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (Henry Kammler) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 01:50:44 +0200 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <20050526141640.278B63A1CB1@user5.cybercity.dk> Message-ID: Hola, if |cecenteotlatoca| is derived from /tla'toa/ it would rather translate as "had talked in reference to their respective gods" (or?) "god talk" would be /teotlatolli/ with root-final /l/ = *|cecenteotlatolca| "each by god talk", I guess. Regarding short incorporated nominal roots: compare the following forms: /o'tlatoka/ = "follow a path" < /o' -tli/ /?tlakwi/ = "fetch water" < /? -tl/ To me this looks like the indefinite object prefix /tla-/ is inserted, rather than /tla/ derived from /-tl(i)/. We also find a reduplicated form /?tlatlakwi/ (cf. Seler's glossary) "fetch lots of water" ("fetch repeatedly"?) which seems to support this. *If* this is the same /tla/, I'm not sure. I think Galen touched upon an important issue: by what processes of analysis do we establish our categories (say, "word classes")? Lacking alternatives, we do use "traditional" terms rooted in Latin grammar writing and established through a long genealogy of Nahuatl scholars. While doing so, we should be aware that these terms *may be* crutches rather than devices of analysis. As useful as our terminology is, it might blur our sight for unexpected phenomena. I wonder in what terms we would talk about Nahuatl if it were among the Papuan languages "discovered" 30-40 years ago... M? niw?ya Henry Kammler Univ. of Frankfurt From h.kammler at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Fri May 27 00:07:22 2005 From: h.kammler at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (Henry Kammler) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 02:07:22 +0200 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <20050526223446.B36C4941CE@user3.cybercity.dk> Message-ID: OK, diachronically, it makes total sense if *-tla is the underlying form of /-tl(i)/ and then occurs in "fossilized" forms in compositions with monosyllabic roots like /o'tlatoka/ and /?tlakwi/. But then, what about reduplicated /?tlatlakwi/? M? nikochi Henry K. **************** Rikke Marie wrote: I belive my teacher Una Canger told me that the -tla in ?tla actually is the pure form of the absolutive suffix. The -a- is normally not strong enough to hold and usually transforms to an -i-. But in this particular incorporation of ?tli into ?-tla-toca, the -a- can hold its position. From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Fri May 27 04:46:52 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 23:46:52 -0500 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <20050526223446.B36C4941CE@user3.cybercity.dk> Message-ID: Dear Rikke Marie, I'm sure that when Una was talking about "tla" and "tli", she was referring to the historical evolution of the form of the absolutive suffix in final position. I doubt that she was referring to an internal "tla", since nouns don't retain their absolutive suffixes when they are non-final and either compounded or embedded in verbs. Of course, there are some noteworthy exceptional forms where a part of the absolutive suffix "peeks through" -- as in "altepetl" or in the placename "Alpoyecan". But there is a reason why we consider these forms **exceptional**! That's because the absolutive suffix doesn't appear word-internally! I didn't say that "tlatoca" involves an inanimate object of -tla. What I said was that the "tla-" (which is an object at some stage of the word derivation -- and is an object in dynamically form verbs) is fused to the verbstem, creating, at the surface level, an intransitive unit. Thus, there are not *two* noun elements involved before the verbstem, only one: "oh-". *But* since "tlatoca" is intransitive, "oh-" does not fulfill the role of object -- it acts adverbially, just as many nouns function before intransitive verbstems (e.g., "ni-coyo-nehnemi", 'I crawl on all fours'). So "toca doesn't have two objects, or even one object -- it has no objects. Saludos, Joe Quoting Rikke Marie Olsen : > Dear Joe and Galen > > I belive my teacher Una Canger told me that the -tla in ?tla actually is the > pure form of the absolutive suffix. The -a- is normally not strong enough to > hold and usually transforms to an -i-. But in this particular incorporation > of ?tli into ?-tla-toca, the -a- can hold its position. > > I think Joe is right about some forms being lexicalized to always appear > with the inanimate object of -tla. But in this case that would give you two > objects - first the incorporated root of ?- and second the inanimate object > og -tla-. But -toca only takes one object...?! > > Rikke Marie > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] > On Behalf Of campbel at INDIANA.EDU > Sent: 27. maj 2005 00:18 > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Re: Chimalpahin > > Quoting Jos? Rabasa : > > > As you point out the otlatoca is attested by > > Molina, and figures earlier in the passage. I > > cannot answer the question you pose as to the > > passage from -tli in otli to -tla- in otlatoca. > > > > > Tocayo, > > I collected some examples of "ohtlatoca" last night and I think I've > cleaned > out (most of) the irrelevant ones. Galen's commentary has covered beyond > what I > could have said when onicochmic. I just wanted to add a comment to the > problem > about the mysterious "tla". The active morphology of Nahuatl involves > forms > such as the following: > > ni-c-toca I follow him > > ni-tla-toca I follow something > > And, as in the case with other verbs, "tla-" sometimes fuses to form a new > intransitive verb "tlatoca" (to follow or continue along). The noun stem > "oh-" > is then prefixed adverbially. "Tla-" fusion is sometimes recognizable by > the > placement of those adverbial nouns -- the position inside the adverbial noun > (close to the verb) is an indication of fusion, just as is the reduplication > of > the "tla-", since objects don't reduplicate, but something fused and made > into > an integral part of the verb stem will. > > Saludos, > > Joe > > From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Fri May 27 10:59:02 2005 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 05:59:02 -0500 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <1117169212.4296a63c2bc8a@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Well put! Thanks for the grammar lesson. Michael Quoting campbel at indiana.edu: > Dear Rikke Marie, > > I'm sure that when Una was talking about "tla" and "tli", she was > referring > to the historical evolution of the form of the absolutive suffix in final > position. I doubt that she was referring to an internal "tla", since nouns > don't retain their absolutive suffixes when they are non-final and either > compounded or embedded in verbs. Of course, there are some noteworthy > exceptional forms where a part of the absolutive suffix "peeks through" -- as > in > "altepetl" or in the placename "Alpoyecan". But there is a reason why we > consider these forms **exceptional**! That's because the absolutive suffix > doesn't appear word-internally! > > I didn't say that "tlatoca" involves an inanimate object of -tla. What I > said was that the "tla-" (which is an object at some stage of the word > derivation -- and is an object in dynamically form verbs) is fused to the > verbstem, creating, at the surface level, an intransitive unit. Thus, there > are > not *two* noun elements involved before the verbstem, only one: "oh-". > *But* > since "tlatoca" is intransitive, "oh-" does not fulfill the role of object > -- > it acts adverbially, just as many nouns function before intransitive > verbstems > (e.g., "ni-coyo-nehnemi", 'I crawl on all fours'). So "toca doesn't have > two > objects, or even one object -- it has no objects. > > Saludos, > > Joe > > Quoting Rikke Marie Olsen : > > > Dear Joe and Galen > > > > I belive my teacher Una Canger told me that the -tla in ?tla actually is > the > > pure form of the absolutive suffix. The -a- is normally not strong enough > to > > hold and usually transforms to an -i-. But in this particular > incorporation > > of ?tli into ?-tla-toca, the -a- can hold its position. > > > > I think Joe is right about some forms being lexicalized to always appear > > with the inanimate object of -tla. But in this case that would give you > two > > objects - first the incorporated root of ?- and second the inanimate > object > > og -tla-. But -toca only takes one object...?! > > > > Rikke Marie > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Nahua language and culture discussion > [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] > > On Behalf Of campbel at INDIANA.EDU > > Sent: 27. maj 2005 00:18 > > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > > Subject: Re: Chimalpahin > > > > Quoting Jos? Rabasa : > > > > > As you point out the otlatoca is attested by > > > Molina, and figures earlier in the passage. I > > > cannot answer the question you pose as to the > > > passage from -tli in otli to -tla- in otlatoca. > > > > > > > > > Tocayo, > > > > I collected some examples of "ohtlatoca" last night and I think I've > > cleaned > > out (most of) the irrelevant ones. Galen's commentary has covered beyond > > what I > > could have said when onicochmic. I just wanted to add a comment to the > > problem > > about the mysterious "tla". The active morphology of Nahuatl involves > > forms > > such as the following: > > > > ni-c-toca I follow him > > > > ni-tla-toca I follow something > > > > And, as in the case with other verbs, "tla-" sometimes fuses to form a new > > intransitive verb "tlatoca" (to follow or continue along). The noun stem > > "oh-" > > is then prefixed adverbially. "Tla-" fusion is sometimes recognizable by > > the > > placement of those adverbial nouns -- the position inside the adverbial > noun > > (close to the verb) is an indication of fusion, just as is the > reduplication > > of > > the "tla-", since objects don't reduplicate, but something fused and made > > into > > an integral part of the verb stem will. > > > > Saludos, > > > > Joe > > > > > From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Fri May 27 13:37:06 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:37:06 +0200 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <1117191542.4296fd7613a0e@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: I agree, Michael. Joe, you may well be right. However, I didn't say that it wasn't an exceptional form to have ?tli with its original absolutive suffix incorporated into -toca. Obviously it is. But as we already discussed, it is not unprecedented: altepetl, atli (to drink water), atlacui. Michel Launey backs you up in that you can have a monotransitive form with a fossilized or fused tla, and still have a nominal root. In fact the nominal root can still function as an object because the -tla looses its right as an object in these cases. Where I'm not entirely convinced yet is where I don't have any examples of tlatoca without the ?-. If it is in fact a fossilized form in classical nahuatl, it should exist in the original documents. I looked at Eisinger's Index to Florentine Codex, Molina's dictionary, Carochi and Michel Launey, and was not able to find a form of tlatoca without the ?-. Also I tried to find it with other nominal roots, as I figured you could follow other things than roads, but still no hit. Does anyone have any examples of the verb tlatoca (in the sense of following something) from an original source? Rikke Marie Ps. Una actually did talk about the internal -tla-, because we discussed the word ?tlatoca, as it appears in Florentine Codex 8 (in the story of Nanahuatzin and Teucziztecatl turning into the sun and the moon). -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Sent: 27. maj 2005 12:59 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Chimalpahin Well put! Thanks for the grammar lesson. Michael Quoting campbel at indiana.edu: > Dear Rikke Marie, > > I'm sure that when Una was talking about "tla" and "tli", she was > referring > to the historical evolution of the form of the absolutive suffix in final > position. I doubt that she was referring to an internal "tla", since nouns > don't retain their absolutive suffixes when they are non-final and either > compounded or embedded in verbs. Of course, there are some noteworthy > exceptional forms where a part of the absolutive suffix "peeks through" -- as > in > "altepetl" or in the placename "Alpoyecan". But there is a reason why we > consider these forms **exceptional**! That's because the absolutive suffix > doesn't appear word-internally! > > I didn't say that "tlatoca" involves an inanimate object of -tla. What I > said was that the "tla-" (which is an object at some stage of the word > derivation -- and is an object in dynamically form verbs) is fused to the > verbstem, creating, at the surface level, an intransitive unit. Thus, there > are > not *two* noun elements involved before the verbstem, only one: "oh-". > *But* > since "tlatoca" is intransitive, "oh-" does not fulfill the role of object > -- > it acts adverbially, just as many nouns function before intransitive > verbstems > (e.g., "ni-coyo-nehnemi", 'I crawl on all fours'). So "toca doesn't have > two > objects, or even one object -- it has no objects. > > Saludos, > > Joe > > Quoting Rikke Marie Olsen : > > > Dear Joe and Galen > > > > I belive my teacher Una Canger told me that the -tla in ?tla actually is > the > > pure form of the absolutive suffix. The -a- is normally not strong enough > to > > hold and usually transforms to an -i-. But in this particular > incorporation > > of ?tli into ?-tla-toca, the -a- can hold its position. > > > > I think Joe is right about some forms being lexicalized to always appear > > with the inanimate object of -tla. But in this case that would give you > two > > objects - first the incorporated root of ?- and second the inanimate > object > > og -tla-. But -toca only takes one object...?! > > > > Rikke Marie > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Nahua language and culture discussion > [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] > > On Behalf Of campbel at INDIANA.EDU > > Sent: 27. maj 2005 00:18 > > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > > Subject: Re: Chimalpahin > > > > Quoting Jos? Rabasa : > > > > > As you point out the otlatoca is attested by > > > Molina, and figures earlier in the passage. I > > > cannot answer the question you pose as to the > > > passage from -tli in otli to -tla- in otlatoca. > > > > > > > > > Tocayo, > > > > I collected some examples of "ohtlatoca" last night and I think I've > > cleaned > > out (most of) the irrelevant ones. Galen's commentary has covered beyond > > what I > > could have said when onicochmic. I just wanted to add a comment to the > > problem > > about the mysterious "tla". The active morphology of Nahuatl involves > > forms > > such as the following: > > > > ni-c-toca I follow him > > > > ni-tla-toca I follow something > > > > And, as in the case with other verbs, "tla-" sometimes fuses to form a new > > intransitive verb "tlatoca" (to follow or continue along). The noun stem > > "oh-" > > is then prefixed adverbially. "Tla-" fusion is sometimes recognizable by > > the > > placement of those adverbial nouns -- the position inside the adverbial > noun > > (close to the verb) is an indication of fusion, just as is the > reduplication > > of > > the "tla-", since objects don't reduplicate, but something fused and made > > into > > an integral part of the verb stem will. > > > > Saludos, > > > > Joe > > > > > From jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Fri May 27 17:35:28 2005 From: jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Rabasa?=) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:35:28 -0700 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20050527010706.021e42d0@popmail.server.uni-frankfurt.de> Message-ID: Dear Galen and Henry, First, I want to thank Henry for pointing out that god-talk would not have the verb-form tlatoa but the nominal-form teotlatolli. This leads me to the question of the terms we use for speaking about Nahautl, the issue that Galen raised with respect to my observation that adjectives cannot modify verbs, an observation that missed what Rikke said about the function of centetl as a noun. Henry points out that the terms we used derive from Latin grammar, to which I would add that Latin provided throughout the Middle Ages the "scientific" metalanguage for speaking about language. Grammar had a closer meaning to logic than to a mere arte de la lengua. The traces of this metalinguistic practice can be found in modern semiotics--take the concept of sign for starters. What guarantees that the terms we use today to describe non-European languages does not miss "unexpected phenomena" and might very well produce a conceptual formulation that transforms the original language through it linguistic reduction (in sixteenth-century understanding as ordering) just as Carochi did in his Arte? If I recall correctly, this would be an instance of what Sapir called the "anthropological mill." Galen hits the mark when he asks " but don't you often feel that in some cases it just isn't always quite adequate?" And Galen is absolutely correct when he says that a Nahuatl "linguistic science would have looked very different from ours." Does a metalanguage require a phonographic form? Couldn't we imagine a community of speakers using their everyday language to speak about language? Or, is it necessary that a given society possess a "scientific" metalanguage, as was the case of Latin in Europe, to develop an awareness of its speaking forms? Now, Galen speaks of grammaticality as bound by a written grammar. I wonder, however, if it doesn't make sense to speak of a language possessing a grammar regardless of it systematic reduction to a written grammar. We could then speak of different degrees of refinement and complexity of speech in which a certain grammaticality and elegance might be considered exemplary. This was clearly the objective of Olmos, Sahagun, Juan Bautista, and Carochi, to just mention the most prominent. Now, it might be the case that in Nahuatl it is common for what we call adjectives to modify verbs, but as far as I know this has not been extensively documented. In studying Chimalpahin we should consider that he was knowledgeable of the grammars, vocabularios, and other tools that the Franciscans had devised in the course of the sixteenth century. I don't see why his style is not building on the Nahuatl literature that the missionaires had written. I am reading Chimlaphain not only as someone who used the Latin alphabet, hence wrote letters, but as someone who was producing a written Nahuatl--not a mere transcription or reproduction of speech--that is, someone who was writing as a Nahuatl letrado. In this regard to speak of him as "oral" would miss the objective of producing a written language with its own rules, styles, and forms, which I believe is what Chimalpahin was self-consciously aiming at. Jose >Hola, > >if |cecenteotlatoca| is derived from /tla'toa/ >it would rather translate as "had talked in >reference to their respective gods" (or?) >"god talk" would be /teotlatolli/ with >root-final /l/ = *|cecenteotlatolca| "each by >god talk", I guess. > >Regarding short incorporated nominal roots: >compare the following forms: >/o'tlatoka/ = "follow a path" < /o' -tli/ >/?tlakwi/ = "fetch water" < /? -tl/ > >To me this looks like the indefinite object >prefix /tla-/ is inserted, rather than /tla/ >derived from /-tl(i)/. We also find a >reduplicated form /?tlatlakwi/ (cf. Seler's >glossary) "fetch lots of water" ("fetch >repeatedly"?) which seems to support this. *If* >this is the same /tla/, I'm not sure. > >I think Galen touched upon an important issue: >by what processes of analysis do we establish >our categories (say, "word classes")? Lacking >alternatives, we do use "traditional" terms >rooted in Latin grammar writing and established >through a long genealogy of Nahuatl scholars. >While doing so, we should be aware that these >terms *may be* crutches rather than devices of >analysis. As useful as our terminology is, it >might blur our sight for unexpected phenomena. I >wonder in what terms we would talk about Nahuatl >if it were among the Papuan languages >"discovered" 30-40 years ago... > >M? niw?ya >Henry Kammler >Univ. of Frankfurt From gvaldana at YAHOO.COM Fri May 27 22:48:51 2005 From: gvaldana at YAHOO.COM (Gerardo Aldana) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:48:51 -0700 Subject: Sextants? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Hola Nahuat-leros, first I apologize that my question contains none of the linguistic sophistication of the last discussion that was derived from an astronomical reference (re: Chimalpahin--although superficially (given my knowledge base), there may be a connection in the line quoted below containing the term "teutlatollj" cf. H Kammler's remarks). In fact, my question comes from utter ignorance. Be warned. In "Aztec Thought and Culture", Le?n-Portilla makes an intriguing statement referring to Sahag?n's "Colloquios y doctrina christiana": "It is said that the astronomers used their hands in the manner of sextants to measure the movements of the stars. They could calculate with precision the exact time the sun would rise and set each day." (paperback edition, 1990, pp. 27-28) The reason this is important to me is that I have been working (mostly with Classic Maya astronomy, iconography, and hieroglyphic texts) on an argument concerning the practice of Mesoamerican celestial observation. Naturally, I start with Nuttall's (and Aveni's) recognition of the Central Mexican codex imagery showing two crossed sticks functioning as an observational instrument, but I haven't done much else with Central Mexican sources here (ok, so there's also a connection to Netzahualpilli's 'observation deck' (via Torquemada, via Aveni)). In my interpretation, though, (differing from Aveni's), the codex images of hands on sticks (with star icons on the fingertips) fit right into the same understanding of the crossed sticks instrument. So I hope its clear that Le?n-Portilla's quote is of some importance. Here's the problem. Le?n-Portilla's reference is to Sahag?n via Walter Lehmann, "Sterbende G?tter und Christliche Heilsbotschaft" (Stuttgart, 1949), which is a Nahuatl transcription with German translation. My German language consultant (this is what I get for trying to get by only with Romance languages...) claims that Le?n-Portilla's reference is not to be found in the German translation (and I haven't found such a reference in Spanish translations of the Nahuatl). Logically, then, the reference to a hand as a sextant would have to come from the Nahuatl text itself, which I quote below. Any takers on Le?n-Portilla's reference here? Lehmann, p 96: B Auh inhin totecujyoane, ca oncate in ocno techiacana, in techitquj intechmama ynjpampa in tlaiecultilo, ca in toteou? ynjntlamaceuhcav? cujtlapillj ahtlapallj in tlamacazque, in tlenamacaque. Lehmann, p. 97: auh in quequetzcova mjtoa. in tlatolmatinjme, auh in jntequjuh in qujmocujtlauja in ioalli in cemjlhuitl, in copaltemaliztli, in tlenamaqujliztlj in vitztlj in acxoiatl, in ne?oliztli. in qujtta in qujmocujtlauja yn johtlatoquiliz in jnematacacholiz in ilhujcatl, in iuh iovalli xelivi. Auh in quitzticate, in qujpouhticate, inqujtlatlazticate in amoxtlj. in tlilli, in tlapalli in tlacujlolli quitqujticate. Ca iehoantin techitqujticate, techiacana, techotlatoltia: iehoantin qujtecpana injuh vetzi ce xivitl iniuh otlatoca in tonalpoallj, auh in cecempoallapoallj qujmocujtlauja, iehoantin yntenjz incocol y mamal in teutlatollj. Auh in tehoantin ca ?? ye iyo totequjuh (in mjtoa) teuatl tlachinollj: auh ?? iehoatl ypan titlatoa, titocujtlauja yn jtequjuh yn cujtlapillj yn atlapallj, inic concuj yn jaztauh yn jmecaxicol. auh injvic yn jmecapal, Lehmann, p. 98: inic ontlalilo in tlecujlixquac ynic tetlacavati. Ma oc tiqujnnechicocan yn tlamacazque, in quequetzalcoa, ma tiqujmacaca in jhiyotzin yn jtlatoltzin in tlacatl totecujo. An iehuantin qujlochtizque qujcuepazque yn otoconcujque, yn otoconanque: amelchiqujuhtzin amotzontecontzin tiquevazque totecujyovane, maxicmocevilican yn amoyollotzin y amo nacayotzin: ma yeh ypan in amopetlatzin y amocpaltzin Any and all assistance will be greatly appreciated and duly noted in publications resulting from this study. Thanks in advance from a Mayanist wading in (unfortunately still) unfamiliar waters, Gerardo Aldana gvaldana at chicst.ucsb.edu Henry Kammler wrote: Hola, if |cecenteotlatoca| is derived from /tla'toa/ it would rather translate as "had talked in reference to their respective gods" (or?) "god talk" would be /teotlatolli/ with root-final /l/ = *|cecenteotlatolca| "each by god talk", I guess. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Sat May 28 06:21:45 2005 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 02:21:45 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [Note: I apologize for the length of this response to Jose, but I figure anybody not interested in the discussion can always just delete it. Also, I want to include the caveat that I am not dogmatic and lay no claim to any special authority in these matters, and welcome anybody to jump into the discussion. As I have told Fritz, for me one of the values of Nahuat-l is that these kinds of discussion help keep me thinking about Nahuatl.] Jose, I think I may have given you the wrong impression about what I was trying to say. I was not claiming that what we call adjectives can modify verbs in Nahuatl. It seems to me that not only is it not common for adjectives to modify verbs in Nahuatl, but it is impossible for two reasons. First, if we use such terms as ?adjective? and ?verb? that come from our traditional grammar, then by definition and logical necessity an adjective cannot modify a verb. Leaving aside the philosophical question about whether thought is based upon a priori or a posteriori concepts, ?adjective? and ?verb? are logical linguistic concepts or categories rather than empirical ones. In other words, although there certainly are prototypical empirical linguistic forms associated with certain grammatical categories, the category itself is not determined by that empirical form but rather by its logical opposition to other linguistic categories. So, by definition, anything that functionally modifies a verb is an adverb and cannot be an adjective no matter what empirical form it takes. The point I was trying to make is that words in any language can often serve different grammatical functions (and this is true of both Nahuatl and English). So, for example, although we identify Nahuatl words that take absolutive suffixes as nouns, those words can also function as adverbs. In the case of ?cecente? you said that it was an adjective, and I was just taking your word for it that maybe you had come across some other context (i.e., not imbedded in a verb) in which it might function as what we identify as an adjective. I can?t think of any such case off-hand, but I haven?t really looked. It does happen in English. In phrases like ?dinner plate,? for example, the noun ?dinner? functions like an adjective. I think the point Rikke made and that I was trying to reiterate was not that centetl is functioning here as a noun, but rather that ?tetl? is a noun. And I was just adding that it is embedded in the verb along with its accompanying quantifier and functioning in a way similar to the logical category that corresponds to an adverb in our logical grammar. In other words, I was trying to avoid the issue of whether or not ?cecente? might function in some other grammatical context (not imbedded in a verb) as an adjective, and merely emphasized the fact that technically it is a noun which appears to function in this context as an adverb. None of this, though, implies that adjectives can modify verbs; at least I hope it doesn?t. The second reason it would be impossible is that most regular Nahuatl "adjectives" are actually verbs or verb phrases. There are exceptions, but one of the interesting things about Nahuatl is that many of the ideas we express using adjectives, Nahuatl expresses using verbalized nouns or merely the past tense of a verb. So to say ?red? or ?pointed,? for example, you use words that literally mean ?it became a red pepper? [chichiltic] and ?it became a thorn? [huitztic] respectively. And to express adjectives like ?fat?, for example, you say ?it got fat? [tomahuac]. So in such cases, these verbs and verb phrases are the closest equivalent to what we call adjectives. The English example of ?pointed? belongs to an interesting class of adjectives in that they too are verbal forms that are used as adjectives, and we also have forms like ?pointy,? which appear to be formed from nouns. In any case, this illustrates the kind of difficulty in applying the metalanguage of European grammar to Nahuatl as if it there were an isomorphic relationship between the languages. I started to write up some comments on the other issues that you raise in relation to what I was saying about grammaticality, but I could see that it would have gotten really long and it basically duplicates part of a much larger argument that I have been writing up dealing with the relation between language and secondary media such as Mesoamerican pictography and the Andean khipu. So, I will desist for the moment and hope to continue this dialogue later. And I am sure we will have plenty of opportunities to do so, since we seem to always end up on the same conference and symposium panels. But with regard to Chimalpahin, I just want to clarify that I did not say that Chimalpahin was ?oral.? I said that Nahuatl was an oral language. I was trying to make the argument that regardless of the possibility of other types of grammaticalization at different levels (about which I agree with you), Nahuatl had not (and still has not) been organically grammaticalized on the linguistic level that phonographic writing highlights and emphasizes as was the case with Latin and Spanish. And if we accept that such linguistic differences as those noted above indicate different linguistic ontologies, then even if Nahuatl had been organically grammaticalized at that level, it would have looked very different from Spanish grammar. Furthermore, the fact that Nahuatl had not gone through a process of grammaticalization at this level or in this dimension has certain implications, which again is part of my larger argument. But it is in this sense that I say that Nahuatl was an oral language: it had not been organically grammaticalized in relation to a secondary alphabetic medium. I should also add that this is very different from saying that the Nahuas belonged to an oral culture. Going back to Chimalpahin, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the language in Chimalpahin?s Nahuatl text exhibits some kind of shift as a result of his participation in, or adherence to, an alphabetic ideology and the grammaticalization project of the Spaniards. I think at one level, there is no question that this is true, and I would be very be interested in your thoughts on the specific nature of this transformation. I have thought a lot about this kind of thing in the context of the Andes, and I have found it rather difficult to pin down analytically, the biggest reason being that I only really have access to the written register. But I?m not sure how this bears on the level of linguistic analysis involved in differentiating, for example, between adjectives, adverbs, verbs, etc. If we agree that Nahuatl and Spanish have separate linguistic ontologies whose organic grammaticalization would be different, then the adaptation of alphabetic writing and Latin/Spanish grammatical concepts to Nahuatl would not resolve this problem. Furthermore, although I agree with you that certainly Chimalpahin was writing as a Nahuatl letrado linked to the projects of colonial grammarians, I would resist the tendency to view his text in some kind of strict opposition to the grammar and conventions of Nahuatl oral linguistic practices. I don?t think phonographic writing is ever completely in opposition to oral discourse. In alphabetic cultures with firmly established institutions of literacy, I don?t think the written and the oral registers become more and more differentiated but rather they become more and more proximate, at least in the way they are conceived ideally. There are several reasons, however, why the nature of the respective media (oral versus written) will always insure that they are very different, but by the same token they are also always linked in one way or another. So, I would argue that Chimalpahin?s text should be viewed as engaged in a dialogic relation with (1) oral practices, (2) the conventions of Spanish discourse some of which are grammatical while others may be rhetorical or discursive, and (3) the written medium itself whose specific nature is conducive to certain kinds of linguistic phenomena such as normalization, standardization, syntactic transformations, etc. Galen Jos? Rabasa wrote: > Dear Galen and Henry, > > First, I want to thank Henry for pointing out that god-talk would not > have the verb-form tlatoa but the nominal-form teotlatolli. This leads > me to the question of the terms we use for speaking about Nahautl, the > issue that Galen raised with respect to my observation that adjectives > cannot modify verbs, an observation that missed what Rikke said about > the function of centetl as a noun. Henry points out that the terms we > used derive from Latin grammar, to which I would add that Latin > provided throughout the Middle Ages the "scientific" metalanguage for > speaking about language. Grammar had a closer meaning to logic than to > a mere arte de la lengua. The traces of this metalinguistic practice > can be found in modern semiotics--take the concept of sign for > starters. What guarantees that the terms we use today to describe > non-European languages does not miss "unexpected phenomena" and might > very well produce a conceptual formulation that transforms the > original language through it linguistic reduction (in > sixteenth-century understanding as ordering) just as Carochi did in > his Arte? If I recall correctly, this would be an instance of what > Sapir called the "anthropological mill." Galen hits the mark when he > asks " but don't you often feel that in some cases it just isn't > always quite adequate?" And Galen is absolutely correct when he says > that a Nahuatl "linguistic science would have looked very different > from ours." Does a metalanguage require a phonographic form? Couldn't > we imagine a community of speakers using their everyday language to > speak about language? Or, is it necessary that a given society possess > a "scientific" metalanguage, as was the case of Latin in Europe, to > develop an awareness of its speaking forms? Now, Galen speaks of > grammaticality as bound by a written grammar. I wonder, however, if it > doesn't make sense to speak of a language possessing a grammar > regardless of it systematic reduction to a written grammar. We could > then speak of different degrees of refinement and complexity of speech > in which a certain grammaticality and elegance might be considered > exemplary. This was clearly the objective of Olmos, Sahagun, Juan > Bautista, and Carochi, to just mention the most prominent. Now, it > might be the case that in Nahuatl it is common for what we call > adjectives to modify verbs, but as far as I know this has not been > extensively documented. In studying Chimalpahin we should consider > that he was knowledgeable of the grammars, vocabularios, and other > tools that the Franciscans had devised in the course of the sixteenth > century. I don't see why his style is not building on the Nahuatl > literature that the missionaires had written. I am reading Chimlaphain > not only as someone who used the Latin alphabet, hence wrote letters, > but as someone who was producing a written Nahuatl--not a mere > transcription or reproduction of speech--that is, someone who was > writing as a Nahuatl letrado. In this regard to speak of him as "oral" > would miss the objective of producing a written language with its own > rules, styles, and forms, which I believe is what Chimalpahin was > self-consciously aiming at. > > Jose > >> Hola, >> >> if |cecenteotlatoca| is derived from /tla'toa/ it would rather >> translate as "had talked in reference to their respective gods" (or?) >> "god talk" would be /teotlatolli/ with root-final /l/ = >> *|cecenteotlatolca| "each by god talk", I guess. >> >> Regarding short incorporated nominal roots: >> compare the following forms: >> /o'tlatoka/ = "follow a path" < /o' -tli/ >> /?tlakwi/ = "fetch water" < /? -tl/ >> >> To me this looks like the indefinite object prefix /tla-/ is >> inserted, rather than /tla/ derived from /-tl(i)/. We also find a >> reduplicated form /?tlatlakwi/ (cf. Seler's glossary) "fetch lots of >> water" ("fetch repeatedly"?) which seems to support this. *If* this >> is the same /tla/, I'm not sure. >> >> I think Galen touched upon an important issue: by what processes of >> analysis do we establish our categories (say, "word classes")? >> Lacking alternatives, we do use "traditional" terms rooted in Latin >> grammar writing and established through a long genealogy of Nahuatl >> scholars. While doing so, we should be aware that these terms *may >> be* crutches rather than devices of analysis. As useful as our >> terminology is, it might blur our sight for unexpected phenomena. I >> wonder in what terms we would talk about Nahuatl if it were among the >> Papuan languages "discovered" 30-40 years ago... >> >> M? niw?ya >> Henry Kammler >> Univ. of Frankfurt > > > From zorrah at ATT.NET Sat May 28 18:08:07 2005 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 18:08:07 +0000 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: Maybe I didn?t understand the lesson in the ?Chimalpahin? thread, but can someone please clarify why "altepetl" does not follow the general assimilation patterns as these other examples do: General Assimilation Examples: 1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli (word, language) = na:huallahto:lli 'Nahuatl language' 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land' 3) a:tl + tlapechtli (bed) = a:tlape:chtli 'slope, side of a gully' Also, in examples 2 and 3, is it the presence of the long vowel ?a:? stem that is left after the -tl is dropped, only to be confronted with a twin ?absolutive suffix-looking tl-? (of course the tl- of tla:lli or tlape:chtli is NOT absolutive) Looking at altepetl, is it the strong ?a:? stem again, who this time will accept a half-image or mirror-image of its former self? 4) a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl (town, pueblo) What is going on here? citlalin xochime -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Sat May 28 20:31:47 2005 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:31:47 +0100 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: --- zorrah at ATT.NET wrote: > Maybe I didn?t understand the lesson in the ?Chimalpahin? thread, but > can someone please clarify why "altepetl" does not follow the general > assimilation patterns as these other examples do: > General Assimilation Examples: > 1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli (word, language) = na:huallahto:lli > 'Nahuatl language' > 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land' > 3) a:tl + tlapechtli (bed) = a:tlape:chtli 'slope, side of a gully' > Also, in examples 2 and 3, is it the presence of the long vowel ?a:? > stem that is left after the -tl is dropped, only to be confronted > with a twin ?absolutive suffix-looking tl-? (of course the tl- of > tla:lli or tlape:chtli is NOT absolutive) > > Looking at altepetl, is it the strong ?a:? stem again, who this time > will accept a half-image or mirror-image of its former self? > > 4) a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl (town, pueblo) > What is going on here? > citlalin xochime (4) A town needs water for irrigation and a hill to keep out of floods. Thus the components have equal status and the compound is a dvandva. The basic meaning is "it is water (and) it is a hill", "it is water and a hill", originally two words, and people gradually started letting them run together into one; and the sequence -tlt- became -lt-. (1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli is also a dvandva: "it is something clear-sounding (and) it is a language", became na:huallahto:lli ; the sequence -tltl- became -ll-. 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land', as it is (a sort of) land, but it is not (a sort of) water: it is an ordinary compound, not a dvandva. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Citltlyani Some languages have next to no assimilation of adjacent sounds; some langages have enough assimilation to keep a shipload of Borg busy. From zorrah at ATT.NET Sat May 28 21:11:25 2005 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:11:25 +0000 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: I think I just realized the reason for a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl, by looking at another example: The al: looks (or rather sounds) more like a stem ending as in the example: tla:lli + tohpohlli = tla:ltohpolli 'terrace' The weird thing, or perhaps magical thing about the connection is that it acts more like chemistry rather than "assimilation" or what ever term they give it. tlazohcamati citlalin xochime -------------- Original message from ANTHONY APPLEYARD : -------------- > --- zorrah at ATT.NET wrote: > > Maybe I didn?t understand the lesson in the ?Chimalpahin? thread, but > > can someone please clarify why "altepetl" does not follow the general > > assimilation patterns as these other examples do: > > General Assimilation Examples: > > 1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli (word, language) = na:huallahto:lli > > 'Nahuatl language' > > 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land' > > 3) a:tl + tlapechtli (bed) = a:tlape:chtli 'slope, side of a gully' > > Also, in examples 2 and 3, is it the presence of the long vowel ?a:? > > stem that is left after the -tl is dropped, only to be confronted > > with a twin ?absolutive suffix-looking tl-? (of course the tl- of > > tla:lli or tlape:chtli is NOT absolutive) > > > > Looking at altepetl, is it the strong ?a:? stem again, who this time > > will accept a half-image or mirror-image of its former self? > > > > 4) a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl (town, pueblo) > > What is going on here? > > citlalin xochime > > (4) A town needs water for irrigation and a hill to keep out of floods. > Thus the components have equal status and the compound is a dvandva. > The basic meaning is "it is water (and) it is a hill", "it is water and > a hill", originally two words, and people gradually started letting > them run together into one; and the sequence -tlt- became -lt-. > > (1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli is also a dvandva: "it is something > clear-sounding (and) it is a language", became na:huallahto:lli ; the > sequence -tltl- became -ll-. > > 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land', as it is (a > sort of) land, but it is not (a sort of) water: it is an ordinary > compound, not a dvandva. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Citltlyani > > Some languages have next to no assimilation of adjacent sounds; > some langages have enough assimilation to keep a shipload of Borg busy. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zorrah at ATT.NET Sat May 28 21:28:00 2005 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:28:00 +0000 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: sorry, this is a just a repeat of my last message without the typos (since there's no editing feature). I always get scrambled when I try to use those colons to mark long vowels... I think I just realized the reason for a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl, by looking at another example: The looks (or rather sounds) more like a stem ending as in the example: tla:lli + tohpolli = tla:ltohpolli 'terrace' The weird thing, or perhaps magical thing about the connection is that it acts more like chemistry rather than "assimilation" or what ever term they give it. tlazohcamati citlalin xochime -------------- Original message from zorrah at att.net: -------------- I think I just realized the reason for a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl, by looking at another example: The al: looks (or rather sounds) more like a stem ending as in the example: tla:lli + tohpohlli = tla:ltohpolli 'terrace' The weird thing, or perhaps magical thing about the connection is that it acts more like chemistry rather than "assimilation" or what ever term they give it. tlazohcamati citlalin xochime -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tonantzin at WI.RR.COM Sat May 28 21:17:21 2005 From: tonantzin at WI.RR.COM (Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 16:17:21 -0500 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: To Anthony Appleyard: What is a dvandva? Never heard of it? It is not even in a dictionary! Is this a neologism? So, how does a dvandva differ from a compound? And is a dvandva another "term" for "disfrasismo"? Juan Alvarez C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ANTHONY APPLEYARD" To: Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 3:31 PM Subject: Re: altepetl > --- zorrah at ATT.NET wrote: >> Maybe I didn't understand the lesson in the "Chimalpahin" thread, but >> can someone please clarify why "altepetl" does not follow the general >> assimilation patterns as these other examples do: >> General Assimilation Examples: >> 1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli (word, language) = na:huallahto:lli >> 'Nahuatl language' >> 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land' >> 3) a:tl + tlapechtli (bed) = a:tlape:chtli 'slope, side of a gully' >> Also, in examples 2 and 3, is it the presence of the long vowel "a:" >> stem that is left after the -tl is dropped, only to be confronted >> with a twin "absolutive suffix-looking tl-" (of course the tl- of >> tla:lli or tlape:chtli is NOT absolutive) >> >> Looking at altepetl, is it the strong "a:" stem again, who this time >> will accept a half-image or mirror-image of its former self? >> >> 4) a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl (town, pueblo) >> What is going on here? >> citlalin xochime > > (4) A town needs water for irrigation and a hill to keep out of floods. > Thus the components have equal status and the compound is a dvandva. > The basic meaning is "it is water (and) it is a hill", "it is water and > a hill", originally two words, and people gradually started letting > them run together into one; and the sequence -tlt- became -lt-. > > (1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli is also a dvandva: "it is something > clear-sounding (and) it is a language", became na:huallahto:lli ; the > sequence -tltl- became -ll-. > > 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land', as it is (a > sort of) land, but it is not (a sort of) water: it is an ordinary > compound, not a dvandva. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Citltlyani > > Some languages have next to no assimilation of adjacent sounds; > some langages have enough assimilation to keep a shipload of Borg busy. > From idiez at MAC.COM Sat May 28 22:57:25 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 17:57:25 -0500 Subject: altepetl and sacred landscape In-Reply-To: <20050528203147.32843.qmail@web86708.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Compa?eros, Just a comment on the term "altepetl". Yes, a town needs water. But curiously enough, when nahuas established settlements, they preferred places like valleys, rinconadas, and ravines, where flooding often occured. The mountain is not used to escape this. "Altepetl" can only by understood within the context of sacred landscape. The mountain is a container of life, like a womb, a breast, a piece of fruit, or the primordial lake of Aztl?n. Often it has caves with springs, which represent, Chicomostoc, the mythic passage between the primordial lake of creation and Colhuahcan, the settlements or altepetl, established by ancient migrating groups of people. Aside from proximity to a main sacred hill, the settlements tend to be located near a spring or river, whose gushing represents birth (of ancestors and new generations) and the birth canal. A few days ago, there was a discussion of a gliph with a hand clutching water. I didn?t say anything then, but this may be a good time. In many sacred ravines a hand is painted on the side of the cliff. The side of a ravine is reminiscent of the outer wall of a gourd, which in turn represents the outer wall of the container of the primordial lake, Aztl?n. The ravine wall is especially attractive to the indigenous mind if it has cracks where water drips out. The hand was painted on the wall of the ravine, because during certain ceremonies, the indigenous people would knock on the rock, to summon their ancestors forth in the form of the new generations. This information is taken from work done on Mesoamerican sacred landscape by Mar?a Elena Bernal Garc?a and Angel Juli?n Garc?a Zambrano at the Universidad Aut?noma del Estado de Morelos. John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx On May 28, 2005, at 3:31 PM, ANTHONY APPLEYARD wrote: > --- zorrah at ATT.NET wrote: >> Maybe I didn?t understand the lesson in the ?Chimalpahin? thread, but >> can someone please clarify why "altepetl" does not follow the general >> assimilation patterns as these other examples do: >> General Assimilation Examples: >> 1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli (word, language) = na:huallahto:lli >> 'Nahuatl language' >> 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land' >> 3) a:tl + tlapechtli (bed) = a:tlape:chtli 'slope, side of a gully' >> Also, in examples 2 and 3, is it the presence of the long vowel ?a:? >> stem that is left after the -tl is dropped, only to be confronted >> with a twin ?absolutive suffix-looking tl-? (of course the tl- of >> tla:lli or tlape:chtli is NOT absolutive) >> >> Looking at altepetl, is it the strong ?a:? stem again, who this time >> will accept a half-image or mirror-image of its former self? >> >> 4) a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl (town, pueblo) >> What is going on here? >> citlalin xochime > > (4) A town needs water for irrigation and a hill to keep out of floods. > Thus the components have equal status and the compound is a dvandva. > The basic meaning is "it is water (and) it is a hill", "it is water and > a hill", originally two words, and people gradually started letting > them run together into one; and the sequence -tlt- became -lt-. > > (1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli is also a dvandva: "it is something > clear-sounding (and) it is a language", became na:huallahto:lli ; the > sequence -tltl- became -ll-. > > 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land', as it is (a > sort of) land, but it is not (a sort of) water: it is an ordinary > compound, not a dvandva. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Citltlyani > > Some languages have next to no assimilation of adjacent sounds; > some langages have enough assimilation to keep a shipload of Borg busy. > From davius_sanctex at TERRA.ES Sat May 28 23:12:32 2005 From: davius_sanctex at TERRA.ES (Davius Sanctex) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 01:12:32 +0200 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: Juan, A dvandva, for example X-Y, is a coordinate lexical compound in wich both terms are equally in status and being semantically roughly equivalent of X and Y. The terms a loanword from a tradiotional sanscrit grammatical term (other three types of compounds are distinguished in sanscrit according to its semantic type or syntactical prominence (pra:dha:nyam): Tatpurusa compounds, in wich a compound of the for XY is a type of Y, avyayi:bha:va or inflecitonal invariant compounds and Bahuvri:hi compounds in wich XY denotes a type of entity not relaterd semantically to X or Y]. Examples of these types in Spanish and English are: Tatpurusa: "fireman", "fountain-pen", "fish-hook" / "hombre rana" Bahuvri:hi: ? / pasacalles, nochebueno, matasuegras Dvandva: ? / carricoche, bolil?piz, "sof? cama". I think most compounds in Englis are Tatpurusa Compounds. In Spanish Bahuvri:hi compounds are more abundant. Dvandva compounds are rare in both language but not in sanscrito or nahuatl. (Some adverbial expresions in Spanish like "a quema ropa" are similar to avyayi:bha:va compounds of sanscrit). Davius Sanctex From zorrah at ATT.NET Sun May 29 00:36:39 2005 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 00:36:39 +0000 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: I enjoyed the sacred landscape meaning of ?altepetl? that was provided by Dr. Sullivan. I learned in my ?History of English? class that Modern English has ?self-explaining compounds,? or what the authors define as ?compounds of two or more native words whose meaning in combination is either self-evident or has been rendered clear by association and usage.? The book says Old English and modern German are full of self-explaining compounds. The authors argue that it was a way to conserve the native vocabulary without having to borrow from other languages (lest we lose our culture so the saying goes). I?m thinking that these ?self-explaining compounds? in English are approximately ?Tatpurusa? dvandva compounds. Some examples are given in ?History of English? such as ?greenhouse, railway, sewing machine, one-way street, and coffee-table book.? Anyway, now that I think I know what dvandra means, what is the relationship between a dvandra and assimilation in Nahuatl? I still don?t get it even after looking at Citlayani?s examples now pasted below: (1) Dvanda a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl A town needs water for irrigation and a hill to keep out of floods. Thus the components have equal status and the compound is a dvandva. The basic meaning is "it is water (and) it is a hill", "it is water and a hill", originally two words, and people gradually started letting them run together into one; and the sequence -tlt- became -lt-. (2) Dvanda. na:huatl + tlahto:lli is also a dvandva: "it is something clear-sounding (and) it is a language", became na:huallahto:lli ; the sequence -tltl- became -ll-. (3) Not a Dvandva. a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land', as it is (a sort of) land, but it is not (a sort of) water: it is an ordinary compound, not a dvandva. There still does not seem to be an explanation for identifying a dvanda in Nahuatl and for following a specified assimilation pattern as a result. As students, are we even supposed to look for the distinction of a dvanda when we are practicing assimilation patterns? Any thoughts would be welcomed. tlazohkamati. citlalin xochime -------------- Original message from Davius Sanctex : -------------- > Juan, > > A dvandva, for example X-Y, is a coordinate lexical compound in wich both > terms are equally in status and being semantically roughly equivalent of X > and Y. The terms a loanword from a tradiotional sanscrit grammatical term > (other three types of compounds are distinguished in sanscrit according to > its semantic type or syntactical prominence (pra:dha:nyam): Tatpurusa > compounds, in wich a compound of the for XY is a type of Y, avyayi:bha:va or > inflecitonal invariant compounds and Bahuvri:hi compounds in wich XY denotes > a type of entity not relaterd semantically to X or Y]. > > Examples of these types in Spanish and English are: > Tatpurusa: "fireman", "fountain-pen", "fish-hook" / "hombre rana" > Bahuvri:hi: ? / pasacalles, nochebueno, matasuegras > Dvandva: ? / carricoche, bolil?piz, "sof? cama". > > I think most compounds in Englis are Tatpurusa Compounds. In Spanish > Bahuvri:hi compounds are more abundant. Dvandva compounds are rare in both > language but not in sanscrito or nahuatl. (Some adverbial expresions in > Spanish like "a quema ropa" are similar to avyayi:bha:va compounds of > sanscrit). > > > Davius Sanctex -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Sun May 29 04:33:19 2005 From: jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Rabasa?=) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:33:19 -0700 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <42980DF9.8050906@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: Given Galen's warning, delete if not interested in our discussion. My response is actually not long and merely poses a few questions Galen, I appreciate your thorough discussion of the care we must take in speaking about verbs, adjectives, and adverbs when analyzing Nahuatl. Your observations on linguistic ontology are most pertinent, and I do share the concern with transposing categories, whether grammatical or philosophical, including the term ontology. Are these categories and disciplines, and the concepts they imply universal? Do we introduce them with the same gesture by means of which we deny their applicability? Your translation of Nahuatl phrases conveys the radical difference with Spanish or English but I wonder if our literal translations of Nahuatl do not incur in a reductive gesture that assumes transparency when you state: "So to say "red" or "pointed,"for example, you use words that literally mean it became a red pepper [chichiltic] and "it became a thorn" [huitztic] respectively."? Would the literality of our translations of chichiltic and huitztic correspond to the semantic and the phenomenal event in Nahuatl? Would the experience of chiltic be similar to that of anaranjado in Spanish which would translate into English as "it became like an orange" (and if we take the suffix "-ado" to imply "the presence of," we could render it as "with the presence of orange-likeness," or something in that line)? As for centetl, shouldn't we differentiate the qualified "noun," one stone, from the function of centetl as a numeral for counting round objects, perhaps tamales, but not tortillas? You state that Nahuatl is an oral language, but if the concept of orality is irremediably bound by circularity and dependence on definitions of literacy and grammaticality, what is the point of retaining this concept? Wouldn't it be more sound to speak of representations or transcriptions of speech and voice, rather than the reified notion that there exist oral languages out there without the ambiguity that is entailed by speaking about orality on the basis of written texts? Should we read Chimalphain and Te?o?omoc as the last representatives of the Nahua intellectuals trained by Sahagun? Did a project of creating a Nahuatl written culture on a par with Latin and Spanish end with them? Jose >[Note: I apologize for the length of this response to Jose, but I figure >anybody not interested in the discussion can always just delete it. >Also, I want to include the caveat that I am not dogmatic and lay no >claim to any special authority in these matters, and welcome anybody to >jump into the discussion. As I have told Fritz, for me one of the values >of Nahuat-l is that these kinds of discussion help keep me thinking >about Nahuatl.] > >Jose, >I think I may have given you the wrong impression about what I was >trying to say. I was not claiming that what we call adjectives can >modify verbs in Nahuatl. It seems to me that not only is it not common >for adjectives to modify verbs in Nahuatl, but it is impossible for two >reasons. First, if we use such terms as "adjective" and "verb" that come >from our traditional grammar, then by definition and logical necessity >an adjective cannot modify a verb. Leaving aside the philosophical >question about whether thought is based upon a priori or a posteriori >concepts, "adjective" and "verb" are logical linguistic concepts or >categories rather than empirical ones. In other words, although there >certainly are prototypical empirical linguistic forms associated with >certain grammatical categories, the category itself is not determined by >that empirical form but rather by its logical opposition to other >linguistic categories. So, by definition, anything that functionally >modifies a verb is an adverb and cannot be an adjective no matter what >empirical form it takes. The point I was trying to make is that words in >any language can often serve different grammatical functions (and this >is true of both Nahuatl and English). So, for example, although we >identify Nahuatl words that take absolutive suffixes as nouns, those >words can also function as adverbs. In the case of "cecente" you said >that it was an adjective, and I was just taking your word for it that >maybe you had come across some other context (i.e., not imbedded in a >verb) in which it might function as what we identify as an adjective. I >can't think of any such case off-hand, but I haven't really looked. It >does happen in English. In phrases like "dinner plate," for example, the >noun "dinner" functions like an adjective. I think the point Rikke made >and that I was trying to reiterate was not that centetl is functioning >here as a noun, but rather that "tetl" is a noun. And I was just adding >that it is embedded in the verb along with its accompanying quantifier >and functioning in a way similar to the logical category that >corresponds to an adverb in our logical grammar. In other words, I was >trying to avoid the issue of whether or not "cecente" might function in >some other grammatical context (not imbedded in a verb) as an adjective, >and merely emphasized the fact that technically it is a noun which >appears to function in this context as an adverb. None of this, though, >implies that adjectives can modify verbs; at least I hope it doesn't. >The second reason it would be impossible is that most regular Nahuatl >"adjectives" are actually verbs or verb phrases. There are exceptions, >but one of the interesting things about Nahuatl is that many of the >ideas we express using adjectives, Nahuatl expresses using verbalized >nouns or merely the past tense of a verb. So to say "red" or "pointed," >for example, you use words that literally mean "it became a red pepper" >[chichiltic] and "it became a thorn" [huitztic] respectively. And to >express adjectives like "fat", for example, you say "it got fat" >[tomahuac]. So in such cases, these verbs and verb phrases are the >closest equivalent to what we call adjectives. The English example of >"pointed" belongs to an interesting class of adjectives in that they too >are verbal forms that are used as adjectives, and we also have forms >like "pointy," which appear to be formed from nouns. In any case, this >illustrates the kind of difficulty in applying the metalanguage of >European grammar to Nahuatl as if it there were an isomorphic >relationship between the languages. >I started to write up some comments on the other issues that you raise >in relation to what I was saying about grammaticality, but I could see >that it would have gotten really long and it basically duplicates part >of a much larger argument that I have been writing up dealing with the >relation between language and secondary media such as Mesoamerican >pictography and the Andean khipu. So, I will desist for the moment and >hope to continue this dialogue later. And I am sure we will have plenty >of opportunities to do so, since we seem to always end up on the same >conference and symposium panels. >But with regard to Chimalpahin, I just want to clarify that I did not >say that Chimalpahin was "oral." I said that Nahuatl was an oral >language. I was trying to make the argument that regardless of the >possibility of other types of grammaticalization at different levels >(about which I agree with you), Nahuatl had not (and still has not) been >organically grammaticalized on the linguistic level that phonographic >writing highlights and emphasizes as was the case with Latin and >Spanish. And if we accept that such linguistic differences as those >noted above indicate different linguistic ontologies, then even if >Nahuatl had been organically grammaticalized at that level, it would >have looked very different from Spanish grammar. Furthermore, the fact >that Nahuatl had not gone through a process of grammaticalization at >this level or in this dimension has certain implications, which again is >part of my larger argument. But it is in this sense that I say that >Nahuatl was an oral language: it had not been organically >grammaticalized in relation to a secondary alphabetic medium. I should >also add that this is very different from saying that the Nahuas >belonged to an oral culture. >Going back to Chimalpahin, if I understand you correctly, you are saying >that the language in Chimalpahin's Nahuatl text exhibits some kind of >shift as a result of his participation in, or adherence to, an >alphabetic ideology and the grammaticalization project of the Spaniards. >I think at one level, there is no question that this is true, and I >would be very be interested in your thoughts on the specific nature of >this transformation. I have thought a lot about this kind of thing in >the context of the Andes, and I have found it rather difficult to pin >down analytically, the biggest reason being that I only really have >access to the written register. But I'm not sure how this bears on the >level of linguistic analysis involved in differentiating, for example, >between adjectives, adverbs, verbs, etc. If we agree that Nahuatl and >Spanish have separate linguistic ontologies whose organic >grammaticalization would be different, then the adaptation of alphabetic >writing and Latin/Spanish grammatical concepts to Nahuatl would not >resolve this problem. Furthermore, although I agree with you that >certainly Chimalpahin was writing as a Nahuatl letrado linked to the >projects of colonial grammarians, I would resist the tendency to view >his text in some kind of strict opposition to the grammar and >conventions of Nahuatl oral linguistic practices. I don't think >phonographic writing is ever completely in opposition to oral discourse. >In alphabetic cultures with firmly established institutions of literacy, >I don't think the written and the oral registers become more and more >differentiated but rather they become more and more proximate, at least >in the way they are conceived ideally. There are several reasons, >however, why the nature of the respective media (oral versus written) >will always insure that they are very different, but by the same token >they are also always linked in one way or another. So, I would argue >that Chimalpahin's text should be viewed as engaged in a dialogic >relation with (1) oral practices, (2) the conventions of Spanish >discourse some of which are grammatical while others may be rhetorical >or discursive, and (3) the written medium itself whose specific nature >is conducive to certain kinds of linguistic phenomena such as >normalization, standardization, syntactic transformations, etc. > >Galen > >Jos? Rabasa wrote: > >>Dear Galen and Henry, >> >>First, I want to thank Henry for pointing out that god-talk would not >>have the verb-form tlatoa but the nominal-form teotlatolli. This leads >>me to the question of the terms we use for speaking about Nahautl, the >>issue that Galen raised with respect to my observation that adjectives >>cannot modify verbs, an observation that missed what Rikke said about >>the function of centetl as a noun. Henry points out that the terms we >>used derive from Latin grammar, to which I would add that Latin >>provided throughout the Middle Ages the "scientific" metalanguage for >>speaking about language. Grammar had a closer meaning to logic than to >>a mere arte de la lengua. The traces of this metalinguistic practice >>can be found in modern semiotics--take the concept of sign for >>starters. What guarantees that the terms we use today to describe >>non-European languages does not miss "unexpected phenomena" and might >>very well produce a conceptual formulation that transforms the >>original language through it linguistic reduction (in >>sixteenth-century understanding as ordering) just as Carochi did in >>his Arte? If I recall correctly, this would be an instance of what >>Sapir called the "anthropological mill." Galen hits the mark when he >>asks " but don't you often feel that in some cases it just isn't >>always quite adequate?" And Galen is absolutely correct when he says >>that a Nahuatl "linguistic science would have looked very different >>from ours." Does a metalanguage require a phonographic form? Couldn't >>we imagine a community of speakers using their everyday language to >>speak about language? Or, is it necessary that a given society possess >>a "scientific" metalanguage, as was the case of Latin in Europe, to >>develop an awareness of its speaking forms? Now, Galen speaks of >>grammaticality as bound by a written grammar. I wonder, however, if it >>doesn't make sense to speak of a language possessing a grammar >>regardless of it systematic reduction to a written grammar. We could >>then speak of different degrees of refinement and complexity of speech >>in which a certain grammaticality and elegance might be considered >>exemplary. This was clearly the objective of Olmos, Sahagun, Juan >>Bautista, and Carochi, to just mention the most prominent. Now, it >>might be the case that in Nahuatl it is common for what we call >>adjectives to modify verbs, but as far as I know this has not been >>extensively documented. In studying Chimalpahin we should consider >>that he was knowledgeable of the grammars, vocabularios, and other >>tools that the Franciscans had devised in the course of the sixteenth >>century. I don't see why his style is not building on the Nahuatl >>literature that the missionaires had written. I am reading Chimlaphain >>not only as someone who used the Latin alphabet, hence wrote letters, >>but as someone who was producing a written Nahuatl--not a mere >>transcription or reproduction of speech--that is, someone who was >>writing as a Nahuatl letrado. In this regard to speak of him as "oral" >>would miss the objective of producing a written language with its own >>rules, styles, and forms, which I believe is what Chimalpahin was >>self-consciously aiming at. >> >>Jose >> >>>Hola, >>> >>>if |cecenteotlatoca| is derived from /tla'toa/ it would rather >>>translate as "had talked in reference to their respective gods" (or?) >>>"god talk" would be /teotlatolli/ with root-final /l/ = >>>*|cecenteotlatolca| "each by god talk", I guess. >>> >>>Regarding short incorporated nominal roots: >>>compare the following forms: >>>/o'tlatoka/ = "follow a path" < /o' -tli/ >>>/?tlakwi/ = "fetch water" < /? -tl/ >>> >>>To me this looks like the indefinite object prefix /tla-/ is >>>inserted, rather than /tla/ derived from /-tl(i)/. We also find a >>>reduplicated form /?tlatlakwi/ (cf. Seler's glossary) "fetch lots of >>>water" ("fetch repeatedly"?) which seems to support this. *If* this >>>is the same /tla/, I'm not sure. >>> >>>I think Galen touched upon an important issue: by what processes of >>>analysis do we establish our categories (say, "word classes")? >>>Lacking alternatives, we do use "traditional" terms rooted in Latin >>>grammar writing and established through a long genealogy of Nahuatl >>>scholars. While doing so, we should be aware that these terms *may >>>be* crutches rather than devices of analysis. As useful as our >>>terminology is, it might blur our sight for unexpected phenomena. I >>>wonder in what terms we would talk about Nahuatl if it were among the >>>Papuan languages "discovered" 30-40 years ago... >>> >>>M? niw?ya >>>Henry Kammler >>>Univ. of Frankfurt From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Sun May 29 05:14:18 2005 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 06:14:18 +0100 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- Jos? Rabasa wrote: > ... Would the experience of chiltic be similar to that of anaranjado > in Spanish which would translate into English as "it became like an > orange" (and if we take the suffix "-ado" to imply "the presence of", > we could render it as "with the presence of orange-likeness", ... The Spanish suffix [-ado] is from Latin [-atus]. [naranjado] is more like "oranged". Similarly, English "pink" for the color, came from the flower called a pink, which came from the "pinked" shape of the edges of its petals (compare the usage of "pinking" in dressmaking.) Similarly with English "violet" from the flower called a violet. Similatly with English "magenta", which was originally the name of a chemical dye, which was named after a place in north Italy where Napoleon III won a battle. or something in that line)? As > for centetl, shouldn't we differentiate the > qualified "noun," one stone, from the function of > centetl as a numeral for counting round objects, > perhaps tamales, but not tortillas? You state > that Nahuatl is an oral language, but if the > concept of orality is irremediably bound by > circularity and dependence on definitions of > literacy and grammaticality, what is the point of > retaining this concept? Wouldn't it be more sound > to speak of representations or transcriptions of > speech and voice, rather than the reified notion > that there exist oral languages out there without > the ambiguity that is entailed by speaking about > orality on the basis of written texts? Should we > read Chimalphain and Te?o?omoc as the last > representatives of the Nahua intellectuals > trained by Sahagun? Did a project of creating a > Nahuatl written culture on a par with Latin and > Spanish end with them? > > Jose > > > >[Note: I apologize for the length of this response to Jose, but I > figure > >anybody not interested in the discussion can always just delete it. > >Also, I want to include the caveat that I am not dogmatic and lay no > >claim to any special authority in these matters, and welcome anybody > to > >jump into the discussion. As I have told Fritz, for me one of the > values > >of Nahuat-l is that these kinds of discussion help keep me thinking > >about Nahuatl.] > > > >Jose, > >I think I may have given you the wrong impression about what I was > >trying to say. I was not claiming that what we call adjectives can > >modify verbs in Nahuatl. It seems to me that not only is it not > common > >for adjectives to modify verbs in Nahuatl, but it is impossible for > two > >reasons. First, if we use such terms as "adjective" and "verb" that > come > >from our traditional grammar, then by definition and logical > necessity > >an adjective cannot modify a verb. Leaving aside the philosophical > >question about whether thought is based upon a priori or a > posteriori > >concepts, "adjective" and "verb" are logical linguistic concepts or > >categories rather than empirical ones. In other words, although > there > >certainly are prototypical empirical linguistic forms associated > with > >certain grammatical categories, the category itself is not > determined by > >that empirical form but rather by its logical opposition to other > >linguistic categories. So, by definition, anything that functionally > >modifies a verb is an adverb and cannot be an adjective no matter > what > >empirical form it takes. The point I was trying to make is that > words in > >any language can often serve different grammatical functions (and > this > >is true of both Nahuatl and English). So, for example, although we > >identify Nahuatl words that take absolutive suffixes as nouns, those > >words can also function as adverbs. In the case of "cecente" you > said > >that it was an adjective, and I was just taking your word for it > that > >maybe you had come across some other context (i.e., not imbedded in > a > >verb) in which it might function as what we identify as an > adjective. I > >can't think of any such case off-hand, but I haven't really looked. > It > >does happen in English. In phrases like "dinner plate," for example, > the > >noun "dinner" functions like an adjective. I think the point Rikke > made > >and that I was trying to reiterate was not that centetl is > functioning > >here as a noun, but rather that "tetl" is a noun. And I was just > adding > >that it is embedded in the verb along with its accompanying > quantifier > >and functioning in a way similar to the logical category that > >corresponds to an adverb in our logical grammar. In other words, I > was > >trying to avoid the issue of whether or not "cecente" might function > in > >some other grammatical context (not imbedded in a verb) as an > adjective, > >and merely emphasized the fact that technically it is a noun which > >appears to function in this context as an adverb. None of this, > though, > >implies that adjectives can modify verbs; at least I hope it > doesn't. > >The second reason it would be impossible is that most regular > Nahuatl > >"adjectives" are actually verbs or verb phrases. There are > exceptions, > >but one of the interesting things about Nahuatl is that many of the > >ideas we express using adjectives, Nahuatl expresses using > verbalized > >nouns or merely the past tense of a verb. So to say "red" or > "pointed," > >for example, you use words that literally mean "it became a red > pepper" > >[chichiltic] and "it became a thorn" [huitztic] respectively. And to > >express adjectives like "fat", for example, you say "it got fat" > >[tomahuac]. So in such cases, these verbs and verb phrases are the > >closest equivalent to what we call adjectives. The English example > of > >"pointed" belongs to an interesting class of adjectives in that they > too > >are verbal forms that are used as adjectives, and we also have forms > >like "pointy," which appear to be formed from nouns. In any case, > this > >illustrates the kind of difficulty in applying the metalanguage of > >European grammar to Nahuatl as if it there were an isomorphic > >relationship between the languages. > >I started to write up some comments on the other issues that you > raise > >in relation to what I was saying about grammaticality, but I could > see > >that it would have gotten really long and it basically duplicates > part > >of a much larger argument that I have been writing up dealing with > the > >relation between language and secondary media such as Mesoamerican > >pictography and the Andean khipu. So, I will desist for the moment > and > >hope to continue this dialogue later. And I am sure we will have > plenty > >of opportunities to do so, since we seem to always end up on the > same > >conference and symposium panels. > >But with regard to Chimalpahin, I just want to clarify that I did > not > >say that Chimalpahin was "oral." I said that Nahuatl was an oral > >language. I was trying to make the argument that regardless of the > >possibility of other types of grammaticalization at different levels > >(about which I agree with you), Nahuatl had not (and still has not) > been > >organically grammaticalized on the linguistic level that > phonographic > >writing highlights and emphasizes as was the case with Latin and > >Spanish. And if we accept that such linguistic differences as those > >noted above indicate different linguistic ontologies, then even if > >Nahuatl had been organically grammaticalized at that level, it would > >have looked very different from Spanish grammar. Furthermore, the > fact > >that Nahuatl had not gone through a process of grammaticalization at > >this level or in this dimension has certain implications, which > again is > >part of my larger argument. But it is in this sense that I say that > >Nahuatl was an oral language: it had not been organically > >grammaticalized in relation to a secondary alphabetic medium. I > should > >also add that this is very different from saying that the Nahuas > >belonged to an oral culture. > >Going back to Chimalpahin, if I understand you correctly, you are > saying > >that the language in Chimalpahin's Nahuatl text exhibits some kind > of > >shift as a result of his participation in, or adherence to, an > >alphabetic ideology and the grammaticalization project of the > Spaniards. > === message truncated === From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Sun May 29 05:48:17 2005 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 06:48:17 +0100 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: --- Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc wrote: > What is a dvandva? Never heard of it? ... It is one of the words that arose in traditional Hindu Indian grammar and got into international use among linguists. "sandhi" and "vrddhi" are other common examples. Sanskrit names of compounds include:- Dvandva : a compound XY meaning X+Y, such as Sanskrit [hasty-ashva:H] = "elephant-horses" meaning "elephants and horses". It does not seem to occur in English. [a:ltepe:tl] is a Nahuatl example. Tatpurusa : A compound XY where the object described is a Y, but is not a X, but the X defines or restricts its meaning. Examples are "air-cylinder", "weight-belt", "lifejacket", "fin-strap", "mask strap". Bahuvrihi : A compound XY where the object described is not an X and is not a Y, but it has a Y, and that Y has the characteristic X. Examples are "redhead" for a woman with red hair, and (in Tolkien) "Hammerhand" = "having a hand whose blow is like the blow of a hammer". Karmadha:raya : a compound XY where the object is an X and it is also a Y, e.g. "priest-king" for a king who is also a priest. Another type is XY where Y is an adjective, meaning "as Y as an X", e.g. "cherry-red". From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Sun May 29 05:59:29 2005 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 06:59:29 +0100 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: --- zorrah at ATT.NET wrote: > I think I just realized the reason for a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) > = a:ltepe:tl, by looking at another example: > The looks (or rather sounds) more like a stem ending as in the > example: tla:lli + tohpolli = tla:ltohpolli 'terrace' ... If so, [a:ltepe_tl] is *a:lli + tepe_tl, but Karttunen's dictionary does not list a word *a:lli. (Here, -lli came from -ltli.) From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Sun May 29 09:24:27 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 11:24:27 +0200 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <052820051808.16409.4298B386000B98C40000401921602806510207040E049B070C@att.net> Message-ID: I think altepetl is a fossilized form. We have already discussed (Chimalpahin) and largely agreed that there are exeptional forms, where monosyllable verbs keeps the absolutive suffix in composites and incorporations. I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you say it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of 't' gives 'lt'. I'm sorry if I'm repeating an answer from someone else. I haven't read every answer thoroughly. Rikke Marie _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of zorrah at ATT.NET Sent: 28. maj 2005 20:08 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: altepetl Maybe I didn't understand the lesson in the "Chimalpahin" thread, but can someone please clarify why "altepetl" does not follow the general assimilation patterns as these other examples do: General Assimilation Examples: 1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli (word, language) = na:huallahto:lli 'Nahuatl language' 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land' 3) a:tl + tlapechtli (bed) = a:tlape:chtli 'slope, side of a gully' Also, in examples 2 and 3, is it the presence of the long vowel "a:" stem that is left after the -tl is dropped, only to be confronted with a twin "absolutive suffix-looking tl-" (of course the tl- of tla:lli or tlape:chtli is NOT absolutive) Looking at altepetl, is it the strong "a:" stem again, who this time will accept a half-image or mirror-image of its former self? 4) a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl (town, pueblo) What is going on here? citlalin xochime -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Sun May 29 09:30:22 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 11:30:22 +0200 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <20050529092432.8324A74FA2B@user1.cybercity.dk> Message-ID: Correction: monosyllable nounROOTS! Rikke _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Rikke Marie Olsen Sent: 29. maj 2005 11:24 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: altepetl I think altepetl is a fossilized form. We have already discussed (Chimalpahin) and largely agreed that there are exeptional forms, where monosyllable verbs keeps the absolutive suffix in composites and incorporations. I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you say it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of 't' gives 'lt'. I'm sorry if I'm repeating an answer from someone else. I haven't read every answer thoroughly. Rikke Marie _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of zorrah at ATT.NET Sent: 28. maj 2005 20:08 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: altepetl Maybe I didn't understand the lesson in the "Chimalpahin" thread, but can someone please clarify why "altepetl" does not follow the general assimilation patterns as these other examples do: General Assimilation Examples: 1) na:huatl + tlahto:lli (word, language) = na:huallahto:lli 'Nahuatl language' 2) a:tl + tla:lli (earth) = a:tla:lli 'irrigated land' 3) a:tl + tlapechtli (bed) = a:tlape:chtli 'slope, side of a gully' Also, in examples 2 and 3, is it the presence of the long vowel "a:" stem that is left after the -tl is dropped, only to be confronted with a twin "absolutive suffix-looking tl-" (of course the tl- of tla:lli or tlape:chtli is NOT absolutive) Looking at altepetl, is it the strong "a:" stem again, who this time will accept a half-image or mirror-image of its former self? 4) a:tl (water) + tepe:tl (hill) = a:ltepe:tl (town, pueblo) What is going on here? citlalin xochime -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zorrah at ATT.NET Sun May 29 13:46:45 2005 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 13:46:45 +0000 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: Thank you. This makes it clearer. As much as I tried to follow the "Chimalpahin" discussion, I was thrown off a number of times. This response helps a great deal. citlalin xochime -------------- Original message from Rikke Marie Olsen : -------------- Correction: monosyllable nounROOTS! Rikke From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Rikke Marie Olsen Sent: 29. maj 2005 11:24 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: altepetl I think altepetl is a fossilized form. We have already discussed (Chimalpahin) and largely agreed that there are exeptional forms, where monosyllable verbs keeps the absolutive suffix in composites and incorporations. I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you say it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of ?tl? in front of ?t? gives ?lt?. I?m sorry if I?m repeating an answer from someone else. I haven?t read every answer thoroughly. Rikke Marie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU Sun May 29 14:53:22 2005 From: jrabasa at CALMAIL.BERKELEY.EDU (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Rabasa?=) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 07:53:22 -0700 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <20050529051418.14856.qmail@web86706.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I follow your examples from English, but what I was trying to convey is that a literal translation of anaranjado, one that would take account of prefix and suffix would end up being a convoluted statement that would have little to do with the semantic and phenomenological event of perceiving "orange" as color. Would that be the case with Nahautl expression of color? Would our literal translations convey the experience of color for Nahuatl speakers? >--- Jos? Rabasa wrote: >> ... Would the experience of chiltic be similar to that of anaranjado >> in Spanish which would translate into English as "it became like an >> orange" (and if we take the suffix "-ado" to imply "the presence of", >> we could render it as "with the presence of orange-likeness", ... > >The Spanish suffix [-ado] is from Latin [-atus]. [naranjado] is more >like "oranged". Similarly, English "pink" for the color, came from the >flower called a pink, which came from the "pinked" shape of the edges >of its petals (compare the usage of "pinking" in dressmaking.) >Similarly with English "violet" from the flower called a violet. >Similatly with English "magenta", which was originally the name of a >chemical dye, which was named after a place in north Italy where >Napoleon III won a battle. > > > > > > > > or something in that line)? As >> for centetl, shouldn't we differentiate the >> qualified "noun," one stone, from the function of >> centetl as a numeral for counting round objects, >> perhaps tamales, but not tortillas? You state >> that Nahuatl is an oral language, but if the >> concept of orality is irremediably bound by >> circularity and dependence on definitions of >> literacy and grammaticality, what is the point of >> retaining this concept? Wouldn't it be more sound >> to speak of representations or transcriptions of >> speech and voice, rather than the reified notion >> that there exist oral languages out there without >> the ambiguity that is entailed by speaking about >> orality on the basis of written texts? Should we >> read Chimalphain and Te?o?omoc as the last >> representatives of the Nahua intellectuals >> trained by Sahagun? Did a project of creating a >> Nahuatl written culture on a par with Latin and >> Spanish end with them? >> >> Jose >> >> >> >[Note: I apologize for the length of this response to Jose, but I >> figure >> >anybody not interested in the discussion can always just delete it. >> >Also, I want to include the caveat that I am not dogmatic and lay no >> >claim to any special authority in these matters, and welcome anybody >> to >> >jump into the discussion. As I have told Fritz, for me one of the >> values >> >of Nahuat-l is that these kinds of discussion help keep me thinking >> >about Nahuatl.] >> > >> >Jose, >> >I think I may have given you the wrong impression about what I was >> >trying to say. I was not claiming that what we call adjectives can >> >modify verbs in Nahuatl. It seems to me that not only is it not >> common >> >for adjectives to modify verbs in Nahuatl, but it is impossible for >> two >> >reasons. First, if we use such terms as "adjective" and "verb" that >> come >> >from our traditional grammar, then by definition and logical >> necessity >> >an adjective cannot modify a verb. Leaving aside the philosophical >> >question about whether thought is based upon a priori or a >> posteriori >> >concepts, "adjective" and "verb" are logical linguistic concepts or >> >categories rather than empirical ones. In other words, although >> there >> >certainly are prototypical empirical linguistic forms associated >> with >> >certain grammatical categories, the category itself is not >> determined by >> >that empirical form but rather by its logical opposition to other >> >linguistic categories. So, by definition, anything that functionally >> >modifies a verb is an adverb and cannot be an adjective no matter >> what >> >empirical form it takes. The point I was trying to make is that >> words in >> >any language can often serve different grammatical functions (and > > this >> >is true of both Nahuatl and English). So, for example, although we >> >identify Nahuatl words that take absolutive suffixes as nouns, those >> >words can also function as adverbs. In the case of "cecente" you >> said >> >that it was an adjective, and I was just taking your word for it >> that >> >maybe you had come across some other context (i.e., not imbedded in >> a >> >verb) in which it might function as what we identify as an >> adjective. I >> >can't think of any such case off-hand, but I haven't really looked. >> It >> >does happen in English. In phrases like "dinner plate," for example, >> the >> >noun "dinner" functions like an adjective. I think the point Rikke >> made >> >and that I was trying to reiterate was not that centetl is >> functioning >> >here as a noun, but rather that "tetl" is a noun. And I was just >> adding >> >that it is embedded in the verb along with its accompanying >> quantifier >> >and functioning in a way similar to the logical category that >> >corresponds to an adverb in our logical grammar. In other words, I >> was >> >trying to avoid the issue of whether or not "cecente" might function >> in >> >some other grammatical context (not imbedded in a verb) as an >> adjective, >> >and merely emphasized the fact that technically it is a noun which >> >appears to function in this context as an adverb. None of this, >> though, >> >implies that adjectives can modify verbs; at least I hope it >> doesn't. >> >The second reason it would be impossible is that most regular >> Nahuatl >> >"adjectives" are actually verbs or verb phrases. There are >> exceptions, >> >but one of the interesting things about Nahuatl is that many of the >> >ideas we express using adjectives, Nahuatl expresses using >> verbalized >> >nouns or merely the past tense of a verb. So to say "red" or >> "pointed," >> >for example, you use words that literally mean "it became a red >> pepper" >> >[chichiltic] and "it became a thorn" [huitztic] respectively. And to >> >express adjectives like "fat", for example, you say "it got fat" >> >[tomahuac]. So in such cases, these verbs and verb phrases are the >> >closest equivalent to what we call adjectives. The English example >> of >> >"pointed" belongs to an interesting class of adjectives in that they >> too >> >are verbal forms that are used as adjectives, and we also have forms >> >like "pointy," which appear to be formed from nouns. In any case, >> this >> >illustrates the kind of difficulty in applying the metalanguage of >> >European grammar to Nahuatl as if it there were an isomorphic >> >relationship between the languages. >> >I started to write up some comments on the other issues that you >> raise >> >in relation to what I was saying about grammaticality, but I could >> see >> >that it would have gotten really long and it basically duplicates >> part >> >of a much larger argument that I have been writing up dealing with >> the >> >relation between language and secondary media such as Mesoamerican >> >pictography and the Andean khipu. So, I will desist for the moment >> and >> >hope to continue this dialogue later. And I am sure we will have >> plenty >> >of opportunities to do so, since we seem to always end up on the >> same >> >conference and symposium panels. >> >But with regard to Chimalpahin, I just want to clarify that I did >> not >> >say that Chimalpahin was "oral." I said that Nahuatl was an oral >> >language. I was trying to make the argument that regardless of the >> >possibility of other types of grammaticalization at different levels >> >(about which I agree with you), Nahuatl had not (and still has not) >> been >> >organically grammaticalized on the linguistic level that >> phonographic >> >writing highlights and emphasizes as was the case with Latin and >> >Spanish. And if we accept that such linguistic differences as those >> >noted above indicate different linguistic ontologies, then even if >> >Nahuatl had been organically grammaticalized at that level, it would >> >have looked very different from Spanish grammar. Furthermore, the >> fact >> >that Nahuatl had not gone through a process of grammaticalization at >> >this level or in this dimension has certain implications, which > > again is >> >part of my larger argument. But it is in this sense that I say that >> >Nahuatl was an oral language: it had not been organically >> >grammaticalized in relation to a secondary alphabetic medium. I >> should >> >also add that this is very different from saying that the Nahuas >> >belonged to an oral culture. >> >Going back to Chimalpahin, if I understand you correctly, you are >> saying >> >that the language in Chimalpahin's Nahuatl text exhibits some kind >> of >> >shift as a result of his participation in, or adherence to, an >> >alphabetic ideology and the grammaticalization project of the >> Spaniards. >> >=== message truncated === From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Sun May 29 16:53:08 2005 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 12:53:08 -0400 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <20050529092432.8324A74FA2B@user1.cybercity.dk> Message-ID: On May 29, 2005, at 5:24 AM, Rikke Marie Olsen wrote: > > I think altepetl is a fossilized form. We have already discussed > (Chimalpahin) and largely agreed that there are exeptional forms, > where monosyllable verbs keeps the absolutive suffix in composites and > incorporations. > ? > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you > say it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of ?tl? in front of > ?t? gives ?lt?. > ? > Widely across extant Nahuatl writing one finds alternation between the difrasismo atl tepetl and the word altepetl with no discernable difference in reference. Whether one word or two, the reference is to the concept of the Nahua corporate community and hardly to literal water and hills. The corresponding possessed forms (first person here by way of example) are nauh tepeuh (two words) and naltepeuh (one word). If the latter were an unexceptional compound word, the absolutive and possessed forms would be *atepetl, natepeuh respectively, which to my knowledge are totally unattested. The "l" is always in there. One could think of altepetl hovering in the interstice between difrasismo (two words) and regular compound word (one word composed of two stems, only the second of which carries suffixes), but on the other hand, the complex morphology of Nahuatl treats altepetl as a unitary word. As Joe has said before, it's an exceptional case, one of those things one learns as a unit instead of constructing by rule. Every language has such lexical items. As to Jos?'s broader questions, I hope he isn't selling short us contemporary linguists and what we do. The thrust of our profession is to discern by research across languages what categories are common to human languages (even if not historically, "genetically" related) and the dimensions on which variation can and does take place. This, of course, is not what 16th- and 17th-century grammarians were up to and is not what modern prescriptivists do, but it IS what linguists do and has been for well over a century. Back in the 1970s Bill Bright provided his students at UCLA with notes on Nahuatl that pointed out that the earliest grammars of Nahuatl best represent the language on its own terms. In the 18th and 19th centuries, as later grammarians tried to impose their particular theoretical molds on Nahuatl, their descriptions of the language grew ever more off-the-mark and unusable. I hope that beginning early in the 20th century, and particularly gathering force since the 1970s, we have gotten back to an understanding of Nahuatl on its own structural terms. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3159 bytes Desc: not available URL: From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sun May 29 17:19:00 2005 From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:19:00 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_=BFSextants=3F?= Message-ID: Gerardo, Regarding the "sextants" in the Mixtec codices you might want to look at Maarten Jansen and Aurora Perez' 1983 article: "The ancient Mexican astronomical apparatus: an iconographical criticism" that appeared in the journal Archaeoastronomy (vol 6, pp. 89-95). Regards, Mike Swanton ________________________________ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Gerardo Aldana Sent: zaterdag 28 mei 2005 0:49 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: ?Sextants? Hola Nahuat-leros, first I apologize that my question contains none of the linguistic sophistication of the last discussion that was derived from an astronomical reference (re: Chimalpahin--although superficially (given my knowledge base), there may be a connection in the line quoted below containing the term "teutlatollj" cf. H Kammler's remarks). In fact, my question comes from utter ignorance. Be warned. In "Aztec Thought and Culture", Le?n-Portilla makes an intriguing statement referring to Sahag?n's "Colloquios y doctrina christiana": "It is said that the astronomers used their hands in the manner of sextants to measure the movements of the stars. They could calculate with precision the exact time the sun would rise and set each day." (paperback edition, 1990, pp. 27-28) The reason this is important to me is that I have been working (mostly with Classic Maya astronomy, iconography, and hieroglyphic texts) on an argument concerning the practice of Mesoamerican celestial observation. Naturally, I start with Nuttall's (and Aveni's) recognition of the Central Mexican codex imagery showing two crossed sticks functioning as an observational instrument, but I haven't done much else with Central Mexican sources here (ok, so there's also a connection to Netzahualpilli's 'observation deck' (via Torquemada, via Aveni)). In my interpretation, though, (differing from Aveni's), the codex images of hands on sticks (with star icons on the fingertips) fit right into the same understanding of the crossed sticks instrument. So I hope its clear that Le?n-Portilla's quote is of some importance. Here's the problem. Le?n-Portilla's reference is to Sahag?n via Walter Lehmann, "Sterbende G?tter und Christliche Heilsbotschaft" (Stuttgart, 1949), which is a Nahuatl transcription with German translation. My German language consultant (this is what I get for trying to get by only with Romance languages...) claims that Le?n-Portilla's reference is not to be found in the German translation (and I haven't found such a reference in Spanish translations of the Nahuatl). Logically, then, the reference to a hand as a sextant would have to come from the Nahuatl text itself, which I quote below. Any takers on Le?n-Portilla's reference here? Lehmann, p 96: B Auh inhin totecujyoane, ca oncate in ocno techiacana, in techitquj intechmama ynjpampa in tlaiecultilo, ca in toteou? ynjntlamaceuhcav? cujtlapillj ahtlapallj in tlamacazque, in tlenamacaque. Lehmann, p. 97: auh in quequetzcova mjtoa. in tlatolmatinjme, auh in jntequjuh in qujmocujtlauja in ioalli in cemjlhuitl, in copaltemaliztli, in tlenamaqujliztlj in vitztlj in acxoiatl, in ne?oliztli. in qujtta in qujmocujtlauja yn johtlatoquiliz in jnematacacholiz in ilhujcatl, in iuh iovalli xelivi. Auh in quitzticate, in qujpouhticate, inqujtlatlazticate in amoxtlj. in tlilli, in tlapalli in tlacujlolli quitqujticate. Ca iehoantin techitqujticate, techiacana, techotlatoltia: iehoantin qujtecpana injuh vetzi ce xivitl iniuh otlatoca in tonalpoallj, auh in cecempoallapoallj qujmocujtlauja, iehoantin yntenjz incocol y mamal in teutlatollj. Auh in tehoantin ca ?? ye iyo totequjuh (in mjtoa) teuatl tlachinollj: auh ?? iehoatl ypan titlatoa, titocujtlauja yn jtequjuh yn cujtlapillj yn atlapallj, inic concuj yn jaztauh yn jmecaxicol. auh injvic yn jmecapal, Lehmann, p. 98: inic ontlalilo in tlecujlixquac ynic tetlacavati. Ma oc tiqujnnechicocan yn tlamacazque, in quequetzalcoa, ma tiqujmacaca in jhiyotzin yn jtlatoltzin in tlacatl totecujo. An iehuantin qujlochtizque qujcuepazque yn otoconcujque, yn otoconanque: amelchiqujuhtzin amotzontecontzin tiquevazque totecujyovane, maxicmocevilican yn amoyollotzin y amo nacayotzin: ma yeh ypan in amopetlatzin y amocpaltzin Any and all assistance will be greatly appreciated and duly noted in publications resulting from this study. Thanks in advance from a Mayanist wading in (unfortunately still) unfamiliar waters, Gerardo Aldana gvaldana at chicst.ucsb.edu Henry Kammler wrote: Hola, if |cecenteotlatoca| is derived from /tla'toa/ it would rather translate as "had talked in reference to their respective gods" (or?) "god talk" would be /teotlatolli/ with root-final /l/ = *|cecenteotlatolca| "each by god talk", I guess. ________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sun May 29 19:25:48 2005 From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:25:48 +0200 Subject: Chimalpahin Message-ID: Galen, In a descriptive grammar of some language L, all posited lexical categories (verbs, nouns, positionals, etc) should be defined based on their linguistic behavior in language L. In other words, lexical categories are language-specific and should be empirically, not "logically", defined. When speaking of "verbs" in Nahuatl, we should not be applying a "metalanguage of European grammar to Nahuatl as if it there were an isomorphic relationship between the languages". Rather we should be referring to a category of lexical item that demonstrates certain linguistic behavior (in Nahuatl) distinguishing it from other lexical items (in Nahuatl). The fact that we use the term "verb" to describe lexical classes in English, Nahuatl, French, Mandarin etc does not mean that we take "verbs" in these languages to be in some sort of "isomorphic relationship". Nor does it mean that there's some sort of well developed cross-linguistic definition of this term outside of particular theories of grammar. It's just a convenient label. At best, the label "verb" captures something about the category being grammatically sensitive to time (whether manifested through tense, aspect, temporal adverbials, mood distinctions). On another subject, I find your use of the word "grammaticalization" somewhat confusing. In linguistics grammaticalization refers to a diachronic process by which a lexical morpheme becomes a grammatical one. I don't think this is what you're referring to. On a more personal level, no Nahuatl speaker I've ever met has translated chichiltic as "it became a red pepper". In our efforts to segment morphemes we should be careful not to confuse diachronic and synchronic analyses. Mike Swanton -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Galen Brokaw Sent: zaterdag 28 mei 2005 8:22 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Chimalpahin [Note: I apologize for the length of this response to Jose, but I figure anybody not interested in the discussion can always just delete it. Also, I want to include the caveat that I am not dogmatic and lay no claim to any special authority in these matters, and welcome anybody to jump into the discussion. As I have told Fritz, for me one of the values of Nahuat-l is that these kinds of discussion help keep me thinking about Nahuatl.] Jose, I think I may have given you the wrong impression about what I was trying to say. I was not claiming that what we call adjectives can modify verbs in Nahuatl. It seems to me that not only is it not common for adjectives to modify verbs in Nahuatl, but it is impossible for two reasons. First, if we use such terms as "adjective" and "verb" that come from our traditional grammar, then by definition and logical necessity an adjective cannot modify a verb. Leaving aside the philosophical question about whether thought is based upon a priori or a posteriori concepts, "adjective" and "verb" are logical linguistic concepts or categories rather than empirical ones. In other words, although there certainly are prototypical empirical linguistic forms associated with certain grammatical categories, the category itself is not determined by that empirical form but rather by its logical opposition to other linguistic categories. So, by definition, anything that functionally modifies a verb is an adverb and cannot be an adjective no matter what empirical form it takes. The point I was trying to make is that words in any language can often serve different grammatical functions (and this is true of both Nahuatl and English). So, for example, although we identify Nahuatl words that take absolutive suffixes as nouns, those words can also function as adverbs. In the case of "cecente" you said that it was an adjective, and I was just taking your word for it that maybe you had come across some other context (i.e., not imbedded in a verb) in which it might function as what we identify as an adjective. I can't think of any such case off-hand, but I haven't really looked. It does happen in English. In phrases like "dinner plate," for example, the noun "dinner" functions like an adjective. I think the point Rikke made and that I was trying to reiterate was not that centetl is functioning here as a noun, but rather that "tetl" is a noun. And I was just adding that it is embedded in the verb along with its accompanying quantifier and functioning in a way similar to the logical category that corresponds to an adverb in our logical grammar. In other words, I was trying to avoid the issue of whether or not "cecente" might function in some other grammatical context (not imbedded in a verb) as an adjective, and merely emphasized the fact that technically it is a noun which appears to function in this context as an adverb. None of this, though, implies that adjectives can modify verbs; at least I hope it doesn't. The second reason it would be impossible is that most regular Nahuatl "adjectives" are actually verbs or verb phrases. There are exceptions, but one of the interesting things about Nahuatl is that many of the ideas we express using adjectives, Nahuatl expresses using verbalized nouns or merely the past tense of a verb. So to say "red" or "pointed," for example, you use words that literally mean "it became a red pepper" [chichiltic] and "it became a thorn" [huitztic] respectively. And to express adjectives like "fat", for example, you say "it got fat" [tomahuac]. So in such cases, these verbs and verb phrases are the closest equivalent to what we call adjectives. The English example of "pointed" belongs to an interesting class of adjectives in that they too are verbal forms that are used as adjectives, and we also have forms like "pointy," which appear to be formed from nouns. In any case, this illustrates the kind of difficulty in applying the metalanguage of European grammar to Nahuatl as if it there were an isomorphic relationship between the languages. I started to write up some comments on the other issues that you raise in relation to what I was saying about grammaticality, but I could see that it would have gotten really long and it basically duplicates part of a much larger argument that I have been writing up dealing with the relation between language and secondary media such as Mesoamerican pictography and the Andean khipu. So, I will desist for the moment and hope to continue this dialogue later. And I am sure we will have plenty of opportunities to do so, since we seem to always end up on the same conference and symposium panels. But with regard to Chimalpahin, I just want to clarify that I did not say that Chimalpahin was "oral." I said that Nahuatl was an oral language. I was trying to make the argument that regardless of the possibility of other types of grammaticalization at different levels (about which I agree with you), Nahuatl had not (and still has not) been organically grammaticalized on the linguistic level that phonographic writing highlights and emphasizes as was the case with Latin and Spanish. And if we accept that such linguistic differences as those noted above indicate different linguistic ontologies, then even if Nahuatl had been organically grammaticalized at that level, it would have looked very different from Spanish grammar. Furthermore, the fact that Nahuatl had not gone through a process of grammaticalization at this level or in this dimension has certain implications, which again is part of my larger argument. But it is in this sense that I say that Nahuatl was an oral language: it had not been organically grammaticalized in relation to a secondary alphabetic medium. I should also add that this is very different from saying that the Nahuas belonged to an oral culture. Going back to Chimalpahin, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the language in Chimalpahin's Nahuatl text exhibits some kind of shift as a result of his participation in, or adherence to, an alphabetic ideology and the grammaticalization project of the Spaniards. I think at one level, there is no question that this is true, and I would be very be interested in your thoughts on the specific nature of this transformation. I have thought a lot about this kind of thing in the context of the Andes, and I have found it rather difficult to pin down analytically, the biggest reason being that I only really have access to the written register. But I'm not sure how this bears on the level of linguistic analysis involved in differentiating, for example, between adjectives, adverbs, verbs, etc. If we agree that Nahuatl and Spanish have separate linguistic ontologies whose organic grammaticalization would be different, then the adaptation of alphabetic writing and Latin/Spanish grammatical concepts to Nahuatl would not resolve this problem. Furthermore, although I agree with you that certainly Chimalpahin was writing as a Nahuatl letrado linked to the projects of colonial grammarians, I would resist the tendency to view his text in some kind of strict opposition to the grammar and conventions of Nahuatl oral linguistic practices. I don't think phonographic writing is ever completely in opposition to oral discourse. In alphabetic cultures with firmly established institutions of literacy, I don't think the written and the oral registers become more and more differentiated but rather they become more and more proximate, at least in the way they are conceived ideally. There are several reasons, however, why the nature of the respective media (oral versus written) will always insure that they are very different, but by the same token they are also always linked in one way or another. So, I would argue that Chimalpahin's text should be viewed as engaged in a dialogic relation with (1) oral practices, (2) the conventions of Spanish discourse some of which are grammatical while others may be rhetorical or discursive, and (3) the written medium itself whose specific nature is conducive to certain kinds of linguistic phenomena such as normalization, standardization, syntactic transformations, etc. Galen Jos? Rabasa wrote: > Dear Galen and Henry, > > First, I want to thank Henry for pointing out that god-talk would not > have the verb-form tlatoa but the nominal-form teotlatolli. This leads > me to the question of the terms we use for speaking about Nahautl, the > issue that Galen raised with respect to my observation that adjectives > cannot modify verbs, an observation that missed what Rikke said about > the function of centetl as a noun. Henry points out that the terms we > used derive from Latin grammar, to which I would add that Latin > provided throughout the Middle Ages the "scientific" metalanguage for > speaking about language. Grammar had a closer meaning to logic than to > a mere arte de la lengua. The traces of this metalinguistic practice > can be found in modern semiotics--take the concept of sign for > starters. What guarantees that the terms we use today to describe > non-European languages does not miss "unexpected phenomena" and might > very well produce a conceptual formulation that transforms the > original language through it linguistic reduction (in > sixteenth-century understanding as ordering) just as Carochi did in > his Arte? If I recall correctly, this would be an instance of what > Sapir called the "anthropological mill." Galen hits the mark when he > asks " but don't you often feel that in some cases it just isn't > always quite adequate?" And Galen is absolutely correct when he says > that a Nahuatl "linguistic science would have looked very different > from ours." Does a metalanguage require a phonographic form? Couldn't > we imagine a community of speakers using their everyday language to > speak about language? Or, is it necessary that a given society possess > a "scientific" metalanguage, as was the case of Latin in Europe, to > develop an awareness of its speaking forms? Now, Galen speaks of > grammaticality as bound by a written grammar. I wonder, however, if it > doesn't make sense to speak of a language possessing a grammar > regardless of it systematic reduction to a written grammar. We could > then speak of different degrees of refinement and complexity of speech > in which a certain grammaticality and elegance might be considered > exemplary. This was clearly the objective of Olmos, Sahagun, Juan > Bautista, and Carochi, to just mention the most prominent. Now, it > might be the case that in Nahuatl it is common for what we call > adjectives to modify verbs, but as far as I know this has not been > extensively documented. In studying Chimalpahin we should consider > that he was knowledgeable of the grammars, vocabularios, and other > tools that the Franciscans had devised in the course of the sixteenth > century. I don't see why his style is not building on the Nahuatl > literature that the missionaires had written. I am reading Chimlaphain > not only as someone who used the Latin alphabet, hence wrote letters, > but as someone who was producing a written Nahuatl--not a mere > transcription or reproduction of speech--that is, someone who was > writing as a Nahuatl letrado. In this regard to speak of him as "oral" > would miss the objective of producing a written language with its own > rules, styles, and forms, which I believe is what Chimalpahin was > self-consciously aiming at. > > Jose > >> Hola, >> >> if |cecenteotlatoca| is derived from /tla'toa/ it would rather >> translate as "had talked in reference to their respective gods" (or?) >> "god talk" would be /teotlatolli/ with root-final /l/ = >> *|cecenteotlatolca| "each by god talk", I guess. >> >> Regarding short incorporated nominal roots: >> compare the following forms: >> /o'tlatoka/ = "follow a path" < /o' -tli/ /?tlakwi/ = "fetch water" < >> /? -tl/ >> >> To me this looks like the indefinite object prefix /tla-/ is >> inserted, rather than /tla/ derived from /-tl(i)/. We also find a >> reduplicated form /?tlatlakwi/ (cf. Seler's glossary) "fetch lots of >> water" ("fetch repeatedly"?) which seems to support this. *If* this >> is the same /tla/, I'm not sure. >> >> I think Galen touched upon an important issue: by what processes of >> analysis do we establish our categories (say, "word classes")? >> Lacking alternatives, we do use "traditional" terms rooted in Latin >> grammar writing and established through a long genealogy of Nahuatl >> scholars. While doing so, we should be aware that these terms *may >> be* crutches rather than devices of analysis. As useful as our >> terminology is, it might blur our sight for unexpected phenomena. I >> wonder in what terms we would talk about Nahuatl if it were among the >> Papuan languages "discovered" 30-40 years ago... >> >> M? niw?ya >> Henry Kammler >> Univ. of Frankfurt > > > From M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sun May 29 19:43:21 2005 From: M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Swanton, M.) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:43:21 +0200 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: If I'm not mistaken Georg Hoelker used the term "Dvandvaaehnliche Wortkuppelung" before Garibay came up with the now popular "difrasizmo". -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of ANTHONY APPLEYARD Sent: zondag 29 mei 2005 7:48 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: altepetl --- Juan Alvarez Cuauhtemoc wrote: > What is a dvandva? Never heard of it? ... It is one of the words that arose in traditional Hindu Indian grammar and got into international use among linguists. "sandhi" and "vrddhi" are other common examples. Sanskrit names of compounds include:- Dvandva : a compound XY meaning X+Y, such as Sanskrit [hasty-ashva:H] = "elephant-horses" meaning "elephants and horses". It does not seem to occur in English. [a:ltepe:tl] is a Nahuatl example. Tatpurusa : A compound XY where the object described is a Y, but is not a X, but the X defines or restricts its meaning. Examples are "air-cylinder", "weight-belt", "lifejacket", "fin-strap", "mask strap". Bahuvrihi : A compound XY where the object described is not an X and is not a Y, but it has a Y, and that Y has the characteristic X. Examples are "redhead" for a woman with red hair, and (in Tolkien) "Hammerhand" = "having a hand whose blow is like the blow of a hammer". Karmadha:raya : a compound XY where the object is an X and it is also a Y, e.g. "priest-king" for a king who is also a priest. Another type is XY where Y is an adjective, meaning "as Y as an X", e.g. "cherry-red". From idiez at MAC.COM Sun May 29 21:12:14 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:12:14 -0500 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fran remarks here that "altepetl" is an exceptional form. I'd like to comment on another aspect its exceptionalness. The modern n?huatl from Veracruz that I work with does not used possessive suffixes with some kinds of nouns. Here they are: 1. agentive nouns: tepahtihquetl (doctor), tepahtianih (doctors), notepahtihquetl (my doctor), notepahtianih (my doctors) 2. "-n" nouns: cuauhtochin (rabbit), cuauhtochimeh (rabbits), nocuauhtochin (my rabbit), nocuauhtochimeh (my rabbits) There are two more words that stand out in my mind which don't take possessive suffixes: 3. montli: nomontli (my son-in-law), I don`t remember right now what the plural form is like. 4. altepetl: noaltepetl John Sullivan On May 29, 2005, at 11:53 AM, Frances Karttunen wrote: > > On May 29, 2005, at 5:24 AM, Rikke Marie Olsen wrote: > >> >> I think altepetl is a fossilized form. We have already discussed >> (Chimalpahin) and largely agreed that there are exeptional forms, >> where monosyllable verbs keeps the absolutive suffix in composites >> and incorporations. >> ? >> I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to >> pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you >> say it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of ?tl? in front >> of ?t? gives ?lt?. >> ? >> > > Widely across extant Nahuatl writing one finds alternation between the > difrasismo atl tepetl and the word altepetl with no discernable > difference in reference. Whether one word or two, the reference is to > the concept of the Nahua corporate community and hardly to literal > water and hills. > > The corresponding possessed forms (first person here by way of > example) are nauh tepeuh (two words) and naltepeuh (one word). If the > latter were an unexceptional compound word, the absolutive and > possessed forms would be *atepetl, natepeuh respectively, which to my > knowledge are totally unattested. The "l" is always in there. > > One could think of altepetl hovering in the interstice between > difrasismo (two words) and regular compound word (one word composed of > two stems, only the second of which carries suffixes), but on the > other hand, the complex morphology of Nahuatl treats altepetl as a > unitary word. As Joe has said before, it's an exceptional case, one > of those things one learns as a unit instead of constructing by rule. > Every language has such lexical items. > > As to Jos?'s broader questions, I hope he isn't selling short us > contemporary linguists and what we do. The thrust of our profession > is to discern by research across languages what categories are common > to human languages (even if not historically, "genetically" related) > and the dimensions on which variation can and does take place. This, > of course, is not what 16th- and 17th-century grammarians were up to > and is not what modern prescriptivists do, but it IS what linguists do > and has been for well over a century. > > Back in the 1970s Bill Bright provided his students at UCLA with notes > on Nahuatl that pointed out that the earliest grammars of Nahuatl best > represent the language on its own terms. In the 18th and 19th > centuries, as later grammarians tried to impose their particular > theoretical molds on Nahuatl, their descriptions of the language grew > ever more off-the-mark and unusable. I hope that beginning early in > the 20th century, and particularly gathering force since the 1970s, we > have gotten back to an understanding of Nahuatl on its own structural > terms. > John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 4366 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET Sun May 29 21:45:29 2005 From: sfargo at EARTHLINK.NET (sfargo@earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:45:29 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin Message-ID: Going back to the puzzling word, it's interesting that it seems as though the glyph for going along a road or caminando, the line of footprints, is easy to read for anyone. But it doesn't say who went along the road or when. European art can say "who" (as demonstrated by Apelles) but it doesn't say "when" very well except by including things like events and times of year. (This turns into a 1560s detective story with a set of paintings by Bruegel, since usually "how many paintings does it take to represent a year" is not a puzzle.) A Nahuatl document is somewhat like a European picture except that it can include dates, and show exactly when somebody was caminando. In the United States the topic of roads is still a little odd, with people saying now and then that Route 66 or whatever was an Indian trail, or with the Lewis and Clark trail representing something in the history of Lewis and Clark, or with the picture signs in southern California warning drivers that people from Mexico might try to run across the freeway with small children. The footprints look like a verb but they don't seem to be "grammatically sensitive to time." Maybe the examples of translations should include translations of mapas? Susan Gilchrist Original Message: ----------------- From: Swanton, M. M.Swanton at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:25:48 +0200 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Chimalpahin Galen, In a descriptive grammar of some language L, all posited lexical categories (verbs, nouns, positionals, etc) should be defined based on their linguistic behavior in language L. In other words, lexical categories are language-specific and should be empirically, not "logically", defined. When speaking of "verbs" in Nahuatl, we should not be applying a "metalanguage of European grammar to Nahuatl as if it there were an isomorphic relationship between the languages". Rather we should be referring to a category of lexical item that demonstrates certain linguistic behavior (in Nahuatl) distinguishing it from other lexical items (in Nahuatl). The fact that we use the term "verb" to describe lexical classes in English, Nahuatl, French, Mandarin etc does not mean that we take "verbs" in these languages to be in some sort of "isomorphic relationship". Nor does it mean that there's some sort of well developed cross-linguistic definition of this term outside of particular theories of grammar. It's just a convenient label. At best, the label "verb" captures something about the category being grammatically sensitive to time (whether manifested through tense, aspect, temporal adverbials, mood distinctions). On another subject, I find your use of the word "grammaticalization" somewhat confusing. In linguistics grammaticalization refers to a diachronic process by which a lexical morpheme becomes a grammatical one. I don't think this is what you're referring to. On a more personal level, no Nahuatl speaker I've ever met has translated chichiltic as "it became a red pepper". In our efforts to segment morphemes we should be careful not to confuse diachronic and synchronic analyses. Mike Swanton -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Galen Brokaw Sent: zaterdag 28 mei 2005 8:22 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: Chimalpahin [Note: I apologize for the length of this response to Jose, but I figure anybody not interested in the discussion can always just delete it. Also, I want to include the caveat that I am not dogmatic and lay no claim to any special authority in these matters, and welcome anybody to jump into the discussion. As I have told Fritz, for me one of the values of Nahuat-l is that these kinds of discussion help keep me thinking about Nahuatl.] Jose, I think I may have given you the wrong impression about what I was trying to say. I was not claiming that what we call adjectives can modify verbs in Nahuatl. It seems to me that not only is it not common for adjectives to modify verbs in Nahuatl, but it is impossible for two reasons. First, if we use such terms as "adjective" and "verb" that come from our traditional grammar, then by definition and logical necessity an adjective cannot modify a verb. Leaving aside the philosophical question about whether thought is based upon a priori or a posteriori concepts, "adjective" and "verb" are logical linguistic concepts or categories rather than empirical ones. In other words, although there certainly are prototypical empirical linguistic forms associated with certain grammatical categories, the category itself is not determined by that empirical form but rather by its logical opposition to other linguistic categories. So, by definition, anything that functionally modifies a verb is an adverb and cannot be an adjective no matter what empirical form it takes. The point I was trying to make is that words in any language can often serve different grammatical functions (and this is true of both Nahuatl and English). So, for example, although we identify Nahuatl words that take absolutive suffixes as nouns, those words can also function as adverbs. In the case of "cecente" you said that it was an adjective, and I was just taking your word for it that maybe you had come across some other context (i.e., not imbedded in a verb) in which it might function as what we identify as an adjective. I can't think of any such case off-hand, but I haven't really looked. It does happen in English. In phrases like "dinner plate," for example, the noun "dinner" functions like an adjective. I think the point Rikke made and that I was trying to reiterate was not that centetl is functioning here as a noun, but rather that "tetl" is a noun. And I was just adding that it is embedded in the verb along with its accompanying quantifier and functioning in a way similar to the logical category that corresponds to an adverb in our logical grammar. In other words, I was trying to avoid the issue of whether or not "cecente" might function in some other grammatical context (not imbedded in a verb) as an adjective, and merely emphasized the fact that technically it is a noun which appears to function in this context as an adverb. None of this, though, implies that adjectives can modify verbs; at least I hope it doesn't. The second reason it would be impossible is that most regular Nahuatl "adjectives" are actually verbs or verb phrases. There are exceptions, but one of the interesting things about Nahuatl is that many of the ideas we express using adjectives, Nahuatl expresses using verbalized nouns or merely the past tense of a verb. So to say "red" or "pointed," for example, you use words that literally mean "it became a red pepper" [chichiltic] and "it became a thorn" [huitztic] respectively. And to express adjectives like "fat", for example, you say "it got fat" [tomahuac]. So in such cases, these verbs and verb phrases are the closest equivalent to what we call adjectives. The English example of "pointed" belongs to an interesting class of adjectives in that they too are verbal forms that are used as adjectives, and we also have forms like "pointy," which appear to be formed from nouns. In any case, this illustrates the kind of difficulty in applying the metalanguage of European grammar to Nahuatl as if it there were an isomorphic relationship between the languages. I started to write up some comments on the other issues that you raise in relation to what I was saying about grammaticality, but I could see that it would have gotten really long and it basically duplicates part of a much larger argument that I have been writing up dealing with the relation between language and secondary media such as Mesoamerican pictography and the Andean khipu. So, I will desist for the moment and hope to continue this dialogue later. And I am sure we will have plenty of opportunities to do so, since we seem to always end up on the same conference and symposium panels. But with regard to Chimalpahin, I just want to clarify that I did not say that Chimalpahin was "oral." I said that Nahuatl was an oral language. I was trying to make the argument that regardless of the possibility of other types of grammaticalization at different levels (about which I agree with you), Nahuatl had not (and still has not) been organically grammaticalized on the linguistic level that phonographic writing highlights and emphasizes as was the case with Latin and Spanish. And if we accept that such linguistic differences as those noted above indicate different linguistic ontologies, then even if Nahuatl had been organically grammaticalized at that level, it would have looked very different from Spanish grammar. Furthermore, the fact that Nahuatl had not gone through a process of grammaticalization at this level or in this dimension has certain implications, which again is part of my larger argument. But it is in this sense that I say that Nahuatl was an oral language: it had not been organically grammaticalized in relation to a secondary alphabetic medium. I should also add that this is very different from saying that the Nahuas belonged to an oral culture. Going back to Chimalpahin, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the language in Chimalpahin's Nahuatl text exhibits some kind of shift as a result of his participation in, or adherence to, an alphabetic ideology and the grammaticalization project of the Spaniards. I think at one level, there is no question that this is true, and I would be very be interested in your thoughts on the specific nature of this transformation. I have thought a lot about this kind of thing in the context of the Andes, and I have found it rather difficult to pin down analytically, the biggest reason being that I only really have access to the written register. But I'm not sure how this bears on the level of linguistic analysis involved in differentiating, for example, between adjectives, adverbs, verbs, etc. If we agree that Nahuatl and Spanish have separate linguistic ontologies whose organic grammaticalization would be different, then the adaptation of alphabetic writing and Latin/Spanish grammatical concepts to Nahuatl would not resolve this problem. Furthermore, although I agree with you that certainly Chimalpahin was writing as a Nahuatl letrado linked to the projects of colonial grammarians, I would resist the tendency to view his text in some kind of strict opposition to the grammar and conventions of Nahuatl oral linguistic practices. I don't think phonographic writing is ever completely in opposition to oral discourse. In alphabetic cultures with firmly established institutions of literacy, I don't think the written and the oral registers become more and more differentiated but rather they become more and more proximate, at least in the way they are conceived ideally. There are several reasons, however, why the nature of the respective media (oral versus written) will always insure that they are very different, but by the same token they are also always linked in one way or another. So, I would argue that Chimalpahin's text should be viewed as engaged in a dialogic relation with (1) oral practices, (2) the conventions of Spanish discourse some of which are grammatical while others may be rhetorical or discursive, and (3) the written medium itself whose specific nature is conducive to certain kinds of linguistic phenomena such as normalization, standardization, syntactic transformations, etc. Galen Jos? Rabasa wrote: > Dear Galen and Henry, > > First, I want to thank Henry for pointing out that god-talk would not > have the verb-form tlatoa but the nominal-form teotlatolli. This leads > me to the question of the terms we use for speaking about Nahautl, the > issue that Galen raised with respect to my observation that adjectives > cannot modify verbs, an observation that missed what Rikke said about > the function of centetl as a noun. Henry points out that the terms we > used derive from Latin grammar, to which I would add that Latin > provided throughout the Middle Ages the "scientific" metalanguage for > speaking about language. Grammar had a closer meaning to logic than to > a mere arte de la lengua. The traces of this metalinguistic practice > can be found in modern semiotics--take the concept of sign for > starters. What guarantees that the terms we use today to describe > non-European languages does not miss "unexpected phenomena" and might > very well produce a conceptual formulation that transforms the > original language through it linguistic reduction (in > sixteenth-century understanding as ordering) just as Carochi did in > his Arte? If I recall correctly, this would be an instance of what > Sapir called the "anthropological mill." Galen hits the mark when he > asks " but don't you often feel that in some cases it just isn't > always quite adequate?" And Galen is absolutely correct when he says > that a Nahuatl "linguistic science would have looked very different > from ours." Does a metalanguage require a phonographic form? Couldn't > we imagine a community of speakers using their everyday language to > speak about language? Or, is it necessary that a given society possess > a "scientific" metalanguage, as was the case of Latin in Europe, to > develop an awareness of its speaking forms? Now, Galen speaks of > grammaticality as bound by a written grammar. I wonder, however, if it > doesn't make sense to speak of a language possessing a grammar > regardless of it systematic reduction to a written grammar. We could > then speak of different degrees of refinement and complexity of speech > in which a certain grammaticality and elegance might be considered > exemplary. This was clearly the objective of Olmos, Sahagun, Juan > Bautista, and Carochi, to just mention the most prominent. Now, it > might be the case that in Nahuatl it is common for what we call > adjectives to modify verbs, but as far as I know this has not been > extensively documented. In studying Chimalpahin we should consider > that he was knowledgeable of the grammars, vocabularios, and other > tools that the Franciscans had devised in the course of the sixteenth > century. I don't see why his style is not building on the Nahuatl > literature that the missionaires had written. I am reading Chimlaphain > not only as someone who used the Latin alphabet, hence wrote letters, > but as someone who was producing a written Nahuatl--not a mere > transcription or reproduction of speech--that is, someone who was > writing as a Nahuatl letrado. In this regard to speak of him as "oral" > would miss the objective of producing a written language with its own > rules, styles, and forms, which I believe is what Chimalpahin was > self-consciously aiming at. > > Jose > >> Hola, >> >> if |cecenteotlatoca| is derived from /tla'toa/ it would rather >> translate as "had talked in reference to their respective gods" (or?) >> "god talk" would be /teotlatolli/ with root-final /l/ = >> *|cecenteotlatolca| "each by god talk", I guess. >> >> Regarding short incorporated nominal roots: >> compare the following forms: >> /o'tlatoka/ = "follow a path" < /o' -tli/ /?tlakwi/ = "fetch water" < >> /? -tl/ >> >> To me this looks like the indefinite object prefix /tla-/ is >> inserted, rather than /tla/ derived from /-tl(i)/. We also find a >> reduplicated form /?tlatlakwi/ (cf. Seler's glossary) "fetch lots of >> water" ("fetch repeatedly"?) which seems to support this. *If* this >> is the same /tla/, I'm not sure. >> >> I think Galen touched upon an important issue: by what processes of >> analysis do we establish our categories (say, "word classes")? >> Lacking alternatives, we do use "traditional" terms rooted in Latin >> grammar writing and established through a long genealogy of Nahuatl >> scholars. While doing so, we should be aware that these terms *may >> be* crutches rather than devices of analysis. As useful as our >> terminology is, it might blur our sight for unexpected phenomena. I >> wonder in what terms we would talk about Nahuatl if it were among the >> Papuan languages "discovered" 30-40 years ago... >> >> M? niw?ya >> Henry Kammler >> Univ. of Frankfurt > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Sun May 29 22:33:08 2005 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:33:08 -0400 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > The corresponding possessed forms (first person here by way of > example) are nauh tepeuh Sorry. Typing error. Should read nauh notepeuh. Fran From karttu at NANTUCKET.NET Sun May 29 22:46:32 2005 From: karttu at NANTUCKET.NET (Frances Karttunen) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:46:32 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <180D418BCB847A49986CFB7C544B6EC3C8D5F6@WSDPD-XC01.wsdpd.wsdad.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: On May 29, 2005, at 3:25 PM, Swanton, M. wrote: > Galen, > In a descriptive grammar of some language L, all posited lexical > categories (verbs, nouns, positionals, etc) should be defined based on > their linguistic behavior in language L. In other words, lexical > categories are language-specific and should be empirically, not > "logically", defined. > > To put it in simplistic terms, if it takes verbal affixes, it's a verb. If it takes nominal suffixes, it's a noun. Derivational processes yield nouns from verbs, verbs from nouns, abstract nouns from concrete nouns, etc., etc., but the end result takes some particular set of inflectional affixes and not the rest. There is nothing I know of in Nahuatl inflectional morphology that distinguishes adjectives from nouns, so I am always very wary of talking about adjectives in Nahuatl. However, nouns can and do function adverbially in constructions like Cuauhtemoc 'he has descended eagle-wise,' etc. Nouns functioning adverbially can be distinguished from incorporated nonspecific objects because they appear in intransitive verb constructions and when incorporated into transitive verbal constructions, there is also an object prefix referring to the actual object. That said, I disagree that lexical categories are language-specific. If you look at a large range of languages, you find that some categories are common to all, even though no language makes use of the full set of possibilities. From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Mon May 30 03:49:26 2005 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 23:49:26 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jose, Hey, come on now, I appreciate your Socratic style of engagement because it makes me articulate and defend my positions, but it makes me do all the work. :-) > I appreciate your thorough discussion of the care we must take in > speaking about verbs, adjectives, and adverbs when analyzing Nahuatl. > Your observations on linguistic ontology are most pertinent, and I do > share the concern with transposing categories, whether grammatical or > philosophical, including the term ontology. Are these categories and > disciplines, and the concepts they imply universal? Do we introduce > them with the same gesture by means of which we deny their applicability? I do not deny in any general way the applicability of linguistic or philosophical terms. I?m not as concerned with transposing linguistic and philosophical terms as I am with the way we transpose them. In the process we may find that some terms and concepts are useful as they are, some may need to be modified, others perhaps discarded altogether in favor of completely new ones. So, in this discussion anyway, I have not denied the applicability of any terms and concepts, but I have argued that we have to think about them differently sometimes. I don?t automatically deny them, because I do think that there are certain universals that gave rise to them. Whether we can determine what those universals are is another question, because they are not the linguistic and philosophical concepts themselves but rather something?which may be merely a phenomenological process?that underlies them and that can give rise to differing philosophical and linguistic conceptualizations. > Your translation of Nahuatl phrases conveys the radical difference > with Spanish or English but I wonder if our literal translations of > Nahuatl do not incur in a reductive gesture that assumes transparency > when you state: "So to say "red" or "pointed,"for example, you use > words that literally mean it became a red pepper [chichiltic] and "it > became a thorn" [huitztic] respectively."? Would the literality of our > translations of chichiltic and huitztic correspond to the semantic and > the phenomenal event in Nahuatl? Would the experience of chiltic be > similar to that of anaranjado in Spanish which would translate into > English as "it became like an orange" (and if we take the suffix > "-ado" to imply "the presence of," we could render it as "with the > presence of orange-likeness," or something in that line)? I completely agree with you that translation, wether literal or not, constitutes a reductive gesture and that my literal translation of the Nahuatl does not necessarily correspond to the phenomenal event in a Nahuatl speakers consciousness. I would argue that this is true of any metalanguage, even our own. So when I engage in linguistic analysis, I do not assume that I am identifying a phenomenal event; and I don't think that I have made that argument. Phenomenal experience can be conceptualized in different ways, and that conceptualization is often revealed through linguistic systems, but the linguistic strategies used to create words and many aspects of a linguistic system itself are often just that, strategies. So, even though our own adjective ?pointed? for example may imply that the object is the result of an action, we do not necessarily conceived of it that way. Similarly with ?anaranjado,? as I think you were implying in your message, when people use this word they are necessarily thinking of the object described as having been some other color and having gone through a process of coloring to become the color orange. So, to describe this word as ?becoming like an orange? although accurate from the perspective of the linguistic system is misleading if we assume that it describes a phenomenal event of consciousness in the quotidian use of this word. I think we probably agree on that. Nevertheless, the linguistic strategy itself is interesting in its own right. In this case, it appears that the linguistic strategy used to come up with a word for the color ?orange? was to take ?naranja,? make it into a verb ?anaranjar? (which may be just a word specifically posited for this purpose, thus never really used in this form) and then use the past participle in a parallel with other past participle adjectives. Historically, I may be off, but I think it illustrates the point. And the point is that these strategies are definable in linguistic terms (and this is all I mean by linguistic ontology: the nature of the linguistic system), regardless of whether or not they reflect a deeper cultural or epistemological ontology. > As for centetl, shouldn't we differentiate the qualified "noun," one > stone, from the function of centetl as a numeral for counting round > objects, perhaps tamales, but not tortillas? Yes, we should. The question here of course is at what level should we make this differentiation. Should it be a differentiation of linguistic category (such as noun) or something else? This is one of the things that a grammar works out. > You state that Nahuatl is an oral language, but if the concept of > orality is irremediably bound by circularity and dependence on > definitions of literacy and grammaticality, what is the point of > retaining this concept? Wouldn't it be more sound to speak of > representations or transcriptions of speech and voice, rather than the > reified notion that there exist oral languages out there without the > ambiguity that is entailed by speaking about orality on the basis of > written texts? I?m not sure I really understand all of what you are getting at here. You are probably right that the notion of an ?oral language? carries with it certain implications that I should avoid. I don?t know. I?ll have to think about that. When I wrote ?oral language?, I wasn?t trying to introduce a category but rather delineate the parameters of a practice. So we may not be so far apart on this. > Should we read Chimalphain and Te?o?omoc as the last representatives > of the Nahua intellectuals trained by Sahagun? I don't know. > Did a project of creating a Nahuatl written culture on a par with > Latin and Spanish end with them? No, I think John Sullivan's project is precisely engaged in this kind of endeavor. Galen From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Mon May 30 04:47:58 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 23:47:58 -0500 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <20050529093026.73A8674FA31@user1.cybercity.dk> Message-ID: First, I think that the activity on this thread and the previous one, Chimalpain, have been a nice demonstration of the power and utility of Nahuat-l. I imagine that most of us would not be able to sustain this level of activity on a year-round basis, but I prefer "busy" to "quiet". Second, a little quibble, but a very serious one on the quote below: As Fran has stated very clearly, yes, "altepetl" developed from a phrase (involving two full *words*) rather than from the compounding of *stems*, but I am relatively sure (even though we all know that one who is "sure" is on slippery ice) that pronouncing the phrase "atl tepetl" with one's built-in speech habits and one's notions of Nahuatl pronunciation (either now or sixteenth century, or, more accurately, prior to the sixteenth century) will not lead one down the path of reality. I think that John, for one, can render a good native-sounding pronunciation of the phrase, but that is *not* the main point. Phonetically, we know that /tl/ is a voiceless alveolar affricate; if we proceed from the voiceless lateral fricative release to the probably dental stoppage (we don't know whether the dental stop may have assimilated in point of articulation to the immediately preceding consonant), it is hard to imagine how the transition could have developed a voiced [l] segment (and then deleted the preceding [t] segment. My point of view is that we shouldn't deceive ourselves by believing that we "feel" or "appreciate" what happened when we don't. I am not suggesting that we not sniff down any likely path of inquiry, just that we recognize ones that are not reasonable. > > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you say > it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of 't' gives > 'lt'. > > Third, since I thought that some examples of "difrasismos" would be helpful. In spite of the fact that there is a list member who knows much more about them than I do, I'm sending an uncommented set of them for your curiosity and enjoyment. The "uncommented" nature of the list is well motivated -- at some point, tlatzihuiliztli set in and there is no cure for that. Joe iahaz icuitlapil his subjects, his vassals ahcohuic tlalchihuic quittaz he will respect him ahuaqueh tepehuaqueh inhabitants of a city apixqueh tepepixqueh guardians of a town ahuayohuaque, huitzyohuaque possessors of offspring pochotl ahuehuetl shelter tealcececahui, tetzitzicazhui one who punishes teatoyahuia tetepexihuia she punishes someone huehuetitlan, ayacachtitlan in rituals of song and dance xomolli, caltechtli oblivion teoatl tlachinolli war teoatl tlachinoltilmahtli cape which has a war symbol on it tocochca, in toneuhca our nourishment tecue, in tehuipil someone's woman huictli, mecapalli bondage tinechopochtiz, tinechitzcactiz you will occupy a place in my confidence, you will have my proxy ixequeh nacacequeh prudent people petlatiz icpaltiz he will reign tecomic tecaxic timayahuiz you will pilfer From campbel at INDIANA.EDU Mon May 30 05:03:44 2005 From: campbel at INDIANA.EDU (campbel at INDIANA.EDU) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 00:03:44 -0500 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <20050529093026.73A8674FA31@user1.cybercity.dk> Message-ID: ...and to balance the list of "difrasismos", some examples of noun-noun stem compounding, one of the real workhorse processes in Nahuatl: acalli canoe water-house acalyacatl prow of a ship water-house-nose ahuictli oar water-oar altepetlacatl townsperson water-hill-person amoxcalli bookstore book-house aohtli water conduit water-road atentli bank of a river water-lip/edge axictli whirlpool water-navel axixcalli latrine water-excrement-house axixtecomatl bladder water-excrement-jar cactlilli shoemaker's dye shoe-soot cahualloquetzontli horse's mane horse-neck-hair calcuaitl roof of a house house-head calnacaztli corner of a house house-ear calohtli road that goes to a house house-road canauhtetl duck egg duck-stone icxiohtli footpath foot-road mazacalli stable deer-house nexatl lye ash-water ocopetlacalli pine box pine-mat-house ocotzotl pine resin pine-sweat/filth pahcalli drugstore medicine-house petlacalmecahuehuetl spinet, stringed instrument with keys mat-house-rope-drum pitzocalli pigsty pig-house teocuitlatl gold god-excrement teocuitlaxalli gold dust god-excrement-sand teocuitlaxiquipilli money bag god-excrement-bag tlacatecolocihuatl diabolical woman person-owl-woman tlacatecolotl owl person-owl tlacualcalli pantry something-eat-pat.n.-house tlecaxitl braisier fire-bowl tocaamatl list of names name-paper totolcalli henhouse turkey hen/chicken-house From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Mon May 30 05:11:06 2005 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 01:11:06 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <180D418BCB847A49986CFB7C544B6EC3C8D5F6@WSDPD-XC01.wsdpd.wsdad.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: Swanton, M. wrote: >In a descriptive grammar of some language L, all posited lexical categories (verbs, nouns, positionals, etc) should be defined based on their linguistic behavior in language L. In other words, lexical categories are language-specific and should be empirically, not "logically", defined. > Mike, Thanks for your comments. On most of the points you mention, I'm not sure we really disagree. First, when I oppose empirical to logical, I am talking about the difference between sensorial experience which is empirical and ideal categories which are logical. Of course, you can't have one without the other. But if we are just talking about language and the linguistic system itself, lexical categories cannot be defined empirically because there are so many empirical differentiations: they occur at different times, in different places, with different pronunciations, etc. So they all have to be synthesized into a single ideal, logical construct, even though it depends upon empirical experience for its raw material. Radical idealism emphasizes the logical dimension of this relationship while radical empiricism emphasizes its empirical dimension. And there are numerous other positions in between. The best place to stand is on this continuum is debatable, but it seems to me that the terms of the debate itself are pretty sound. I'm not denying that you have to define lexical items based on their linguistic behavior in language L. The point is that, although empirical experience is necessary, the conceptualization of that experience is a logical ideal. >When speaking of "verbs" in Nahuatl, we should not be applying a "metalanguage of European grammar to Nahuatl as if it there were an isomorphic relationship between the languages". Rather we should be referring to a category of lexical item that demonstrates certain linguistic behavior (in Nahuatl) distinguishing it from other lexical items (in Nahuatl). > I completely agree with you here. You are citing me out of context. The sentence from which you lifted that quote says: "...this illustrates the kind of difficulty in applying the metalanguage of European grammar to Nahuatl as if it were an isomorphic relationship between the languages." I admit that my own grammar here is a little convoluted; it was late when I was writing that. But I was making the same point you are, which is why I said that this was a "difficulty" and "as if it were isomorphic." What I was saying was that languages are not isomorphic. >The fact that we use the term "verb" to describe lexical classes in English, Nahuatl, French, Mandarin etc does not mean that we take "verbs" in these languages to be in some sort of "isomorphic relationship". Nor does it mean that there's some sort of well developed cross-linguistic definition of this term outside of particular theories of grammar. It's just a convenient label. At best, the label "verb" captures something about the category being grammatically sensitive to time (whether manifested through tense, aspect, temporal adverbials, mood distinctions). > Again, I was saying that we cannot assume an isomorphic relationship. Like Fran, however, and as I explained perviously, I do believe that there are certain universals, and this is why all languages appear to include certain linguistic categories, as Fran pointed out. I would argue that these categories are not universal themselves but rather are derivative of whatever is universal about human experience. The fact that not all linguistic categories appear in all languages would seem to corroborate the idea that the categories themselves are not universal but rather something else that underlies them and provides for the possibility of variation. >On another subject, I find your use of the word "grammaticalization" somewhat confusing. In linguistics grammaticalization refers to a diachronic process by which a lexical morpheme becomes a grammatical one. I don't think this is what you're referring to. > You are absolutely right. I am aware of the standard use of the term in lingiustics, and I should be more careful about adopting it for use with a different meaning, especially on this list where there are so many linguists. In this context, what I mean is merely the analysis of language that produces a metalanguage we call grammar. Perhaps I should use another term. As you can probably tell, I'm still developing these ideas (with the help of Jose's Socratic prodding :-)). >On a more personal level, no Nahuatl speaker I've ever met has translated chichiltic as "it became a red pepper". In our efforts to segment morphemes we should be careful not to confuse diachronic and synchronic analyses. > I was not suggesting that a native speaker would translate "chichiltic" as "it became a red pepper." What I was saying is that this is the way it is constructed according to the linguistic system. The point that I was trying to make is that in the project of developing an organic metalanguage, an analysis of this type of construction would have to figure in. So, for example, one option might be to call this an adjective as we do with words like "anaranjado" and "pointed." Another option might be to call it a verb phrase and not even have an adjective category in the grammar. Galen From a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM Mon May 30 05:18:44 2005 From: a.appleyard at BTINTERNET.COM (ANTHONY APPLEYARD) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 06:18:44 +0100 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <429A8D46.8020006@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: --- Galen Brokaw wrote: > ... In this case, it appears that the linguistic strategy used to > come up with a word for the color ?orange? was to take ?naranja?, > make it into a verb ?anaranjar? (which may be just a word > specifically posited for this purpose, thus never really used in this > form) and then use the past participle in a parallel with other past > participle adjectives. ... At first the process in Spanish was to form a noun "X" into a verb "Xar" or "aXar", and then to use that verb, and then to make and use that verb's past participle "Xado" or "aXado". Later, the verb stage was bypassed and a noun "Y" was made directly into an adjective "Yado" or "aYado". An English example is "red-headed" where there is no verb *"to red-head". From brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU Mon May 30 05:26:42 2005 From: brokaw at BUFFALO.EDU (Galen Brokaw) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 01:26:42 -0400 Subject: Chimalpahin In-Reply-To: <429A8D46.8020006@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: I have the habit of reading all of the messages sent out even my own, and I noticed my own typo below: > necessarily conceived of it that way. Similarly with ?anaranjado,? as I > think you were implying in your message, when people use this word they > are necessarily thinking of the object described as having been some > other color and having gone through a process of coloring to become the > color orange. It is probably clear from the context, but I missed a "not" in there where it should read "they are NOT necessarily thinking of the object... as having been some other color...." I'm sure there are others, but this one was the most substantively egregious. Galen From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Mon May 30 06:40:34 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:40:34 +0200 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <1117428478.429a9afec5460@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Please inform me if this list is for linguistics majors only! Rikke Marie Joe Cambpell wrote: My point of view is that we shouldn't deceive ourselves by believing that we "feel" or "appreciate" what happened when we don't. I am not suggesting that we not sniff down any likely path of inquiry, just that we recognize ones that are not reasonable. > I wrote: > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you > say it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of > 't' gives 'lt'. -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of campbel at INDIANA.EDU Sent: 30. maj 2005 06:48 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: altepetl First, I think that the activity on this thread and the previous one, Chimalpain, have been a nice demonstration of the power and utility of Nahuat-l. I imagine that most of us would not be able to sustain this level of activity on a year-round basis, but I prefer "busy" to "quiet". Second, a little quibble, but a very serious one on the quote below: As Fran has stated very clearly, yes, "altepetl" developed from a phrase (involving two full *words*) rather than from the compounding of *stems*, but I am relatively sure (even though we all know that one who is "sure" is on slippery ice) that pronouncing the phrase "atl tepetl" with one's built-in speech habits and one's notions of Nahuatl pronunciation (either now or sixteenth century, or, more accurately, prior to the sixteenth century) will not lead one down the path of reality. I think that John, for one, can render a good native-sounding pronunciation of the phrase, but that is *not* the main point. Phonetically, we know that /tl/ is a voiceless alveolar affricate; if we proceed from the voiceless lateral fricative release to the probably dental stoppage (we don't know whether the dental stop may have assimilated in point of articulation to the immediately preceding consonant), it is hard to imagine how the transition could have developed a voiced [l] segment (and then deleted the preceding [t] segment. My point of view is that we shouldn't deceive ourselves by believing that we "feel" or "appreciate" what happened when we don't. I am not suggesting that we not sniff down any likely path of inquiry, just that we recognize ones that are not reasonable. > > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you say > it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of 't' gives > 'lt'. > > Third, since I thought that some examples of "difrasismos" would be helpful. In spite of the fact that there is a list member who knows much more about them than I do, I'm sending an uncommented set of them for your curiosity and enjoyment. The "uncommented" nature of the list is well motivated -- at some point, tlatzihuiliztli set in and there is no cure for that. Joe iahaz icuitlapil his subjects, his vassals ahcohuic tlalchihuic quittaz he will respect him ahuaqueh tepehuaqueh inhabitants of a city apixqueh tepepixqueh guardians of a town ahuayohuaque, huitzyohuaque possessors of offspring pochotl ahuehuetl shelter tealcececahui, tetzitzicazhui one who punishes teatoyahuia tetepexihuia she punishes someone huehuetitlan, ayacachtitlan in rituals of song and dance xomolli, caltechtli oblivion teoatl tlachinolli war teoatl tlachinoltilmahtli cape which has a war symbol on it tocochca, in toneuhca our nourishment tecue, in tehuipil someone's woman huictli, mecapalli bondage tinechopochtiz, tinechitzcactiz you will occupy a place in my confidence, you will have my proxy ixequeh nacacequeh prudent people petlatiz icpaltiz he will reign tecomic tecaxic timayahuiz you will pilfer From mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Mon May 30 13:15:45 2005 From: mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU (Michael McCafferty) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:15:45 -0500 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <20050530064043.4E1C393FA2@user3.cybercity.dk> Message-ID: Rikke: No, it's not just for linguistics majors. But, as I recall, you're the one who began this thread, right? Did you not imagine that it would take a linguistic turn at some point. :-) Michael Quoting Rikke Marie Olsen : > Please inform me if this list is for linguistics majors only! > > Rikke Marie > > Joe Cambpell wrote: > > My point of view is that we shouldn't deceive ourselves by believing that we > "feel" or "appreciate" what happened when we don't. I am not suggesting > that we not sniff down any likely path of inquiry, just that we recognize > ones that are not reasonable. > > > I wrote: > > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to > > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you > > say it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of > > 't' gives 'lt'. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] > On Behalf Of campbel at INDIANA.EDU > Sent: 30. maj 2005 06:48 > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Re: altepetl > > First, I think that the activity on this thread and the previous one, > Chimalpain, have been a nice demonstration of the power and utility of > Nahuat-l. > I imagine that most of us would not be able to sustain this level of > activity on > a year-round basis, but I prefer "busy" to "quiet". > > Second, a little quibble, but a very serious one on the quote below: > As Fran has stated very clearly, yes, "altepetl" developed from a phrase > (involving two full *words*) rather than from the compounding of *stems*, > but I > am relatively sure (even though we all know that one who is "sure" is on > slippery ice) that pronouncing the phrase "atl tepetl" with one's built-in > speech habits and one's notions of Nahuatl pronunciation (either now or > sixteenth century, or, more accurately, prior to the sixteenth century) will > not > lead one down the path of reality. I think that John, for one, can render a > good native-sounding pronunciation of the phrase, but that is *not* the main > point. > > Phonetically, we know that /tl/ is a voiceless alveolar affricate; if we > proceed from the voiceless lateral fricative release to the probably dental > stoppage (we don't know whether the dental stop may have assimilated in > point of > articulation to the immediately preceding consonant), it is hard to imagine > how > the transition could have developed a voiced [l] segment (and then deleted > the > preceding [t] segment. > My point of view is that we shouldn't deceive ourselves by believing > that > we "feel" or "appreciate" what happened when we don't. I am not suggesting > that > we not sniff down any likely path of inquiry, just that we recognize ones > that > are not reasonable. > > > > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to > > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you say > > it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of 't' > gives > > 'lt'. > > > > > > Third, since I thought that some examples of "difrasismos" would be > helpful. > In spite of the fact that there is a list member who knows much more about > them > than I do, I'm sending an uncommented set of them for your curiosity and > enjoyment. The "uncommented" nature of the list is well motivated -- at > some > point, tlatzihuiliztli set in and there is no cure for that. > > Joe > > > > iahaz icuitlapil his subjects, his vassals > > ahcohuic tlalchihuic quittaz he will respect him > > ahuaqueh tepehuaqueh inhabitants of a city > > apixqueh tepepixqueh guardians of a town > > ahuayohuaque, huitzyohuaque possessors of offspring > > pochotl ahuehuetl shelter > > tealcececahui, tetzitzicazhui one who punishes > > teatoyahuia tetepexihuia she punishes someone > > huehuetitlan, ayacachtitlan in rituals of song and dance > > xomolli, caltechtli oblivion > > teoatl tlachinolli war > > teoatl tlachinoltilmahtli cape which has a war symbol on it > > tocochca, in toneuhca our nourishment > > tecue, in tehuipil someone's woman > > huictli, mecapalli bondage > > tinechopochtiz, tinechitzcactiz you will occupy a place in my confidence, > you will have my proxy > > ixequeh nacacequeh prudent people > > petlatiz icpaltiz he will reign > > tecomic tecaxic timayahuiz you will pilfer > From dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX Mon May 30 13:39:41 2005 From: dcwright at PRODIGY.NET.MX (David Wright) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:39:41 -0500 Subject: Altepetl Message-ID: A brief comment on Frances' statement: >Whether one word or two, the reference is to the concept of the Nahua corporate community and hardly to literal water and hills. I would just like to add that the concept of the water-mountain as a metaphor for the sum of calpolli units under the domain of a ruler extended beyond the Nahuatl-speaking community; it was a basic aspect of Central Mexican translinguistic culture and extended up into the Sierra Madre Oriental and down to Oaxaca. Equivalent expressions with morphemes for water and mountain (calques, that is, where each group takes the idea and supplies its own morphemes) may also be found across the language families, in Otomi, Pame, Mazatec, Totonac, Popoluca de Sayula, and Pochutec. In Otomi the term is andehent'oho (both O's underlined; the vowel is intermediate between Spanish O and E). an + dehe + n + t'oho (underlined O's again) singular nominal prefix + noun: water + epenthetic phoneme (or syncopated singular nominal prefix) + noun: mountain This word is attested in Alonso Urbano's trilingual (Spanish-Nahuatl-Otomi) vocabulary (c 1605) and in the Otomi historical annals of the Huichapan Codex (c 1632). We tend to view Central Mexican culture as "Nahua culture" because we have so much more data on the Nahuas. When we look at verbal and iconic metaphors across linguistic boundaries we begin to see the big picture: most elements of culture don't divide along linguistic boundaries in this part of the world. The Mesoamerican network of cultural interaction has very ancient roots. From rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU Mon May 30 14:31:54 2005 From: rcrapo at HASS.USU.EDU (Richley Crapo) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:31:54 -0600 Subject: Convention for counting dual names Message-ID: In classical Aztec, when a person had two names (e.g., Tlotzin Pochotl) and a text refers to the fact that one of these names is the earlier and the other was received later (e.g., "X, who was first called Y), is the person's earlier name listed first or second? In other words, in a case such as Tlotzin Pochotl, would the text likely say "Tlotzen who was first called Pochotl" or "Pochotl, who was first called Tlotzin"? Thanks, Richley From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Mon May 30 15:08:47 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:08:47 +0200 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <1117458945.429b120117bd0@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Michael: I'm not sure that I began the thread..., but I did take an active part in it - guilty :-) My outburst was simply a response to a reply which reduced my view on altepetl to a mere "feel" for the language that I apparently don't have! :-) Rikke Marie -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU Sent: 30. maj 2005 15:16 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: altepetl Rikke: No, it's not just for linguistics majors. But, as I recall, you're the one who began this thread, right? Did you not imagine that it would take a linguistic turn at some point. :-) Michael Quoting Rikke Marie Olsen : > Please inform me if this list is for linguistics majors only! > > Rikke Marie > > Joe Cambpell wrote: > > My point of view is that we shouldn't deceive ourselves by believing that we > "feel" or "appreciate" what happened when we don't. I am not suggesting > that we not sniff down any likely path of inquiry, just that we recognize > ones that are not reasonable. > > > I wrote: > > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to > > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you > > say it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of > > 't' gives 'lt'. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] > On Behalf Of campbel at INDIANA.EDU > Sent: 30. maj 2005 06:48 > To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU > Subject: Re: altepetl > > First, I think that the activity on this thread and the previous one, > Chimalpain, have been a nice demonstration of the power and utility of > Nahuat-l. > I imagine that most of us would not be able to sustain this level of > activity on > a year-round basis, but I prefer "busy" to "quiet". > > Second, a little quibble, but a very serious one on the quote below: > As Fran has stated very clearly, yes, "altepetl" developed from a phrase > (involving two full *words*) rather than from the compounding of *stems*, > but I > am relatively sure (even though we all know that one who is "sure" is on > slippery ice) that pronouncing the phrase "atl tepetl" with one's built-in > speech habits and one's notions of Nahuatl pronunciation (either now or > sixteenth century, or, more accurately, prior to the sixteenth century) will > not > lead one down the path of reality. I think that John, for one, can render a > good native-sounding pronunciation of the phrase, but that is *not* the main > point. > > Phonetically, we know that /tl/ is a voiceless alveolar affricate; if we > proceed from the voiceless lateral fricative release to the probably dental > stoppage (we don't know whether the dental stop may have assimilated in > point of > articulation to the immediately preceding consonant), it is hard to imagine > how > the transition could have developed a voiced [l] segment (and then deleted > the > preceding [t] segment. > My point of view is that we shouldn't deceive ourselves by believing > that > we "feel" or "appreciate" what happened when we don't. I am not suggesting > that > we not sniff down any likely path of inquiry, just that we recognize ones > that > are not reasonable. > > > > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to > > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you say > > it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of 't' > gives > > 'lt'. > > > > > > Third, since I thought that some examples of "difrasismos" would be > helpful. > In spite of the fact that there is a list member who knows much more about > them > than I do, I'm sending an uncommented set of them for your curiosity and > enjoyment. The "uncommented" nature of the list is well motivated -- at > some > point, tlatzihuiliztli set in and there is no cure for that. > > Joe > > > > iahaz icuitlapil his subjects, his vassals > > ahcohuic tlalchihuic quittaz he will respect him > > ahuaqueh tepehuaqueh inhabitants of a city > > apixqueh tepepixqueh guardians of a town > > ahuayohuaque, huitzyohuaque possessors of offspring > > pochotl ahuehuetl shelter > > tealcececahui, tetzitzicazhui one who punishes > > teatoyahuia tetepexihuia she punishes someone > > huehuetitlan, ayacachtitlan in rituals of song and dance > > xomolli, caltechtli oblivion > > teoatl tlachinolli war > > teoatl tlachinoltilmahtli cape which has a war symbol on it > > tocochca, in toneuhca our nourishment > > tecue, in tehuipil someone's woman > > huictli, mecapalli bondage > > tinechopochtiz, tinechitzcactiz you will occupy a place in my confidence, > you will have my proxy > > ixequeh nacacequeh prudent people > > petlatiz icpaltiz he will reign > > tecomic tecaxic timayahuiz you will pilfer > From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Mon May 30 15:15:12 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:15:12 +0200 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <1117428478.429a9afec5460@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Joe: I thought there was a broad consensus about *tl*, *l* and *t*, that certain dialects (I can't name them) has an *l* in places where classical Nahuatl would have a *tl*, and other dialects still has a *t* instead of *tl*. I can't say anything about voiceless alveolar affricates, but if it's a possibility in the evolvement of dialects, couldn't it also happen with a single word within a dialect? Rikke -----Original Message----- From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of campbel at INDIANA.EDU Sent: 30. maj 2005 06:48 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: altepetl First, I think that the activity on this thread and the previous one, Chimalpain, have been a nice demonstration of the power and utility of Nahuat-l. I imagine that most of us would not be able to sustain this level of activity on a year-round basis, but I prefer "busy" to "quiet". Second, a little quibble, but a very serious one on the quote below: As Fran has stated very clearly, yes, "altepetl" developed from a phrase (involving two full *words*) rather than from the compounding of *stems*, but I am relatively sure (even though we all know that one who is "sure" is on slippery ice) that pronouncing the phrase "atl tepetl" with one's built-in speech habits and one's notions of Nahuatl pronunciation (either now or sixteenth century, or, more accurately, prior to the sixteenth century) will not lead one down the path of reality. I think that John, for one, can render a good native-sounding pronunciation of the phrase, but that is *not* the main point. Phonetically, we know that /tl/ is a voiceless alveolar affricate; if we proceed from the voiceless lateral fricative release to the probably dental stoppage (we don't know whether the dental stop may have assimilated in point of articulation to the immediately preceding consonant), it is hard to imagine how the transition could have developed a voiced [l] segment (and then deleted the preceding [t] segment. My point of view is that we shouldn't deceive ourselves by believing that we "feel" or "appreciate" what happened when we don't. I am not suggesting that we not sniff down any likely path of inquiry, just that we recognize ones that are not reasonable. > > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you say > it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of 't' gives > 'lt'. > > Third, since I thought that some examples of "difrasismos" would be helpful. In spite of the fact that there is a list member who knows much more about them than I do, I'm sending an uncommented set of them for your curiosity and enjoyment. The "uncommented" nature of the list is well motivated -- at some point, tlatzihuiliztli set in and there is no cure for that. Joe iahaz icuitlapil his subjects, his vassals ahcohuic tlalchihuic quittaz he will respect him ahuaqueh tepehuaqueh inhabitants of a city apixqueh tepepixqueh guardians of a town ahuayohuaque, huitzyohuaque possessors of offspring pochotl ahuehuetl shelter tealcececahui, tetzitzicazhui one who punishes teatoyahuia tetepexihuia she punishes someone huehuetitlan, ayacachtitlan in rituals of song and dance xomolli, caltechtli oblivion teoatl tlachinolli war teoatl tlachinoltilmahtli cape which has a war symbol on it tocochca, in toneuhca our nourishment tecue, in tehuipil someone's woman huictli, mecapalli bondage tinechopochtiz, tinechitzcactiz you will occupy a place in my confidence, you will have my proxy ixequeh nacacequeh prudent people petlatiz icpaltiz he will reign tecomic tecaxic timayahuiz you will pilfer From zorrah at ATT.NET Mon May 30 17:09:49 2005 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:09:49 +0000 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: My reply was never meant to ?reduce? your perspective to another; rather, it was meant to create a chasm in need of a bridge. That it did. Better yet, it created a gushing flow beneath the bridge. I got what I wanted, and I don?t find blame in it: you?re responsible for creating your own perspective. citlalin xochime -------------- Original message from Rikke Marie -------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Mon May 30 19:35:39 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:35:39 -0500 Subject: double and triple aux verbs Message-ID: Listeros, A while a ago I sent in an example of a double auxiliar verb. The native speakers here worked today on that point, and here are some of their examples (doubles and triples). One interesting point is the use of -tihuallahtihuallauh and -tiyahtiyauh. The meaning is very similar to the Mexican Spanish construction which goes. Ella estaba llori-llore. Est?bamos camini-camine, etc. Note in example 12 how the relational construction has been stuck onto the verbstem. Another interesting thing is how local Spanish has been altered under the influence of Nahuatl. The construction -tehua, means something to the effect of "doing something before leaving". Nitlacuahteuhqui" = I ate before leaving. If you ask a native speaker from the Huasteca what the sentence means, they will say, "Dej? comido." Now perhaps the mestizos that live around nahua villages understand this, but no Mexican from other parts of the country would understand this expression, "Dej? comido." I had to ask lots of questions to get a "standard" Mexican Spanish translation. All in all, it's kind of evident with the following examples, that translations don't quite do it. John 1. Tequititeuhtozquia. Hubiera trabajado antes de partir. 2. Niatlacuitihuetzteuhqui. Acarre? agua r?pidamente antes de salir. 3. Nihualchocatinentiquizqui. Vine andando llorando de paso. 4. Xiahquitihuallahtihuallauh. Vente nadando seguido. 5. Nimotlalozquizteuhtihuetztozquia. Hubiera salido corriendo de repente. 6. Ticualantihuallahtihuetzqui. De repente mientras caminabas, te enojaste. 7. Niatlacuitihuetztihuallahtoc. He venido acarreando agua r?pidamente. 8. Nimotepotlamihtihuallahtiquiza. Me vengo tropezando de paso. 9. Nimatlatzquihtihuallahtihuallahqui pan cami?n. Me vine agarrando en el cami?n (durante el camino). 10. Nizaniltihualhuetztiquizqui. Vine hablando r?pidamente de paso. 11. Nimomimiltihuetztiquiza. Vengo rodando r?pidamente de paso. 12. Nimoixtenomimiltihuetztiquiza. Vengo rodando r?pidamente de paso frente a ti. 13. Nimocuatetzontihuallauhtihuetzqui Vine peg?ndome en la cabeza r?pidamente. John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3942 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Mon May 30 21:11:48 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 23:11:48 +0200 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <053020051709.29895.429B48DD0004325D000074C721602807480207040E049B070C@att.net> Message-ID: Misunderstanding. My reply wasn't aimed at you. _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of zorrah at ATT.NET Sent: 30. maj 2005 19:10 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: altepetl My reply was never meant to "reduce" your perspective to another; rather, it was meant to create a chasm in need of a bridge. That it did. Better yet, it created a gushing flow beneath the bridge. I got what I wanted, and I don't find blame in it: you're responsible for creating your own perspective. citlalin xochime -------------- Original message from Rikke Marie -------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From idiez at MAC.COM Tue May 31 00:24:02 2005 From: idiez at MAC.COM (idiez at MAC.COM) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:24:02 -0500 Subject: conditional tense Message-ID: Listeros, A note on the use of the "conditional tense", -zquia, in modern n?huatl. I think people now tend to call it the "unfulfilled action" tense. Well it refers to unfulfilled action in two ways: 1. Unfulfulled in the sense that the action has not yet been fulfilled: nimaltizquia pampa nizoquiyoh = I should bathe because I'm dirty. 2. Unfulfilled in the sense that there was an intention to fulfill it, but something happened to interrupt the process: nimaltizquia pero tlanqui atl. = I was going to bathe, but the water ran out. 3. And then there is the compound form with "-tozquia", which means "should have done something": nimaltihtozquia quemman oncayaya atl. = I should have bathed when there was water. John John Sullivan, Ph.D. Profesor de lengua y cultura nahua Unidad Acad?mica de Idiomas Universidad Aut?noma de Zacatecas Director Instituto de Docencia e Investigaci?n Etnol?gica de Zacatecas, A.C. Tacuba 152, int. 47 Centro Hist?rico Zacatecas, Zac. 98000 M?xico Oficina: +52 (492) 925-3415 Fax: +52 (492) 925-3416 Domicilio: +52 (492) 768-6048 Celular: +52 (492) 544-5985 idiez at mac.com www.idiez.org.mx From n8upb at YAHOO.COM Tue May 31 01:57:52 2005 From: n8upb at YAHOO.COM (DARKHORSE) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 18:57:52 -0700 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <053020051709.29895.429B48DD0004325D000074C721602807480207040E049B070C@att.net> Message-ID: Children, behave... Pls go to the corner and face the wall...jeje.... --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK Tue May 31 07:15:28 2005 From: dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK (Rikke Marie Olsen) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 09:15:28 +0200 Subject: altepetl In-Reply-To: <20050531015752.70595.qmail@web40722.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: :-) *lol* I lost my blanky, but I've found it now. Rikke _____ From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of DARKHORSE Sent: 31. maj 2005 03:58 To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: altepetl Children, behave... Pls go to the corner and face the wall...jeje.... _____ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zorrah at ATT.NET Tue May 31 23:24:43 2005 From: zorrah at ATT.NET (zorrah at ATT.NET) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:24:43 +0000 Subject: altepetl Message-ID: Dear Rikke Marie: Misunderstanding? Yes. I started the "altepetl" thread, so naturally I thought your response to the comment below was the result of my thread. My misunderstanding began when you used my thread to raise another question (the "outburst") that did not relate to the questions raised in the thread or to the questions of the original thread poster-- in this case--me. In any event, I am sorry. Your contribution to my "altepetl" thread helped to bring out the information that I was seeking to understand. cuale chias, -citlalin xochime >Rikke: No, it's not just for linguistics majors. But, as I recall, you're the one who began this thread, right? Did you not imagine that it would take a linguistic turn at some point. :-) Michael Quoting Rikke Marie Olsen dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK: > Please inform me if this list is for linguistics majors only! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: