altepetl

[Rikke Marie Olsen]

Michael:

I'm not sure that I began the thread..., but I did take an active part in it
- guilty :-)

My outburst was simply a response to a reply which reduced my view on
altepetl to a mere "feel" for the language that I apparently don't have! :-)

Rikke Marie

-----Original Message-----
From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU]
On Behalf Of mmccaffe at INDIANA.EDU
Sent: 30. maj 2005 15:16
To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Subject: Re: altepetl

Rikke:

No, it's not just for linguistics majors. But, as I recall, you're the one
who
began this thread, right? Did you not imagine that it would take a
linguistic
turn at some point. :-)

Michael

Quoting Rikke Marie Olsen <dr.rom at DANSEMUS.DK>:

> Please inform me if this list is for linguistics majors only!
>
> Rikke Marie
>
> Joe Cambpell wrote:
>
> My point of view is that we shouldn't deceive ourselves by believing that
we
> "feel" or "appreciate" what happened when we don't.  I am not suggesting
> that we not sniff down any likely path of inquiry, just that we recognize
> ones that are not reasonable.
> >
> I wrote:
> > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to
> > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you
> > say it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of
> > 't' gives 'lt'.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nahua language and culture discussion
[mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU]
> On Behalf Of campbel at INDIANA.EDU
> Sent: 30. maj 2005 06:48
> To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
> Subject: Re: altepetl
>
>     First, I think that the activity on this thread and the previous one,
> Chimalpain, have been a nice demonstration of the power and utility of
> Nahuat-l.
> I imagine that most of us would not be able to sustain this level of
> activity on
> a year-round basis, but I prefer "busy" to "quiet".
>
>     Second, a little quibble, but a very serious one on the quote below:
> As Fran has stated very clearly, yes, "altepetl" developed from a phrase
> (involving two full *words*) rather than from the compounding of *stems*,
> but I
> am relatively sure (even though we all know that one who is "sure" is on
> slippery ice) that pronouncing the phrase "atl tepetl" with one's built-in
> speech habits and one's notions of Nahuatl pronunciation (either now or
> sixteenth century, or, more accurately, prior to the sixteenth century)
will
> not
> lead one down the path of reality.  I think that John, for one, can render
a
> good native-sounding pronunciation of the phrase, but that is *not* the
main
> point.
>
>     Phonetically, we know that /tl/ is a voiceless alveolar affricate; if
we
> proceed from the voiceless lateral fricative release to the probably
dental
> stoppage (we don't know whether the dental stop may have assimilated in
> point of
> articulation to the immediately preceding consonant), it is hard to
imagine
> how
> the transition could have developed a voiced [l] segment (and then deleted
> the
> preceding [t] segment.
>     My point of view is that we shouldn't deceive ourselves by believing
> that
> we "feel" or "appreciate" what happened when we don't.  I am not
suggesting
> that
> we not sniff down any likely path of inquiry, just that we recognize ones
> that
> are not reasonable.
> >
> > I believe that the original form was atl-tepetl. Only if you try to
> > pronounce it, it will sound more and more like al-tepetl the more you
say
> > it. In other words I see it as an assimilation of 'tl' in front of 't'
> gives
> > 'lt'.
> >
> >
>
>     Third, since I thought that some examples of "difrasismos" would be
> helpful.
> In spite of the fact that there is a list member who knows much more about
> them
> than I do, I'm sending an uncommented set of them for your curiosity and
> enjoyment.  The "uncommented" nature of the list is well motivated -- at
> some
> point, tlatzihuiliztli set in and there is no cure for that.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> iahaz icuitlapil                 his subjects, his vassals
>
> ahcohuic tlalchihuic quittaz     he will respect him
>
> ahuaqueh tepehuaqueh             inhabitants of a city
>
> apixqueh tepepixqueh             guardians of a town
>
> ahuayohuaque, huitzyohuaque      possessors of offspring
>
> pochotl ahuehuetl                shelter
>
> tealcececahui, tetzitzicazhui    one who punishes
>
> teatoyahuia tetepexihuia         she punishes someone
>
> huehuetitlan, ayacachtitlan      in rituals of song and dance
>
> xomolli, caltechtli              oblivion
>
> teoatl tlachinolli               war
>
> teoatl tlachinoltilmahtli        cape which has a war symbol on it
>
> tocochca, in toneuhca            our nourishment
>
> tecue, in tehuipil               someone's woman
>
> huictli, mecapalli               bondage
>
> tinechopochtiz, tinechitzcactiz  you will occupy a place in my confidence,
>                                  you will have my proxy
>
> ixequeh nacacequeh               prudent people
>
> petlatiz icpaltiz                he will reign
>
> tecomic tecaxic timayahuiz       you will pilfer
>